Dr. David Burns
Appearances
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I am not learned enough to remember that. No, he did.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Gosh, David, I really appreciate your honesty.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, I have an endorsement about that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
So this fellow, Brian, sends me very short messages about the podcast every once in a while. And he was talking to me about episode 410, which was What is the Purpose of Life that we published on August 19th. And he sent me just this really short thing saying, this was an awesome podcast today. The last 10 minutes especially were great. And I can't wait until the next one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I don't remember, but it was good, I guess.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, I know what that feels like. All right. Here's question number two. How can I make myself accountable for doing the exercises in your books? Again, somebody said, it's good to have Fabrice back. And that's relating to episode 407, which we were just talking about. Regarding your books, I have a question. I have trouble holding myself accountable doing the exercises in the book.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Do you have any advice on how to prioritize doing the homework and being disciplined with it? How did other depressed people get better using your books? I've already filled out multiple notebooks, but I appear to be stuck. Any help is appreciated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
So can I just be clear? So you're framing what he's saying as holding himself accountable to doing homework is the same thing as? holding himself accountable not to procrastinate or to overcome his procrastination?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Wait, and I have one more I want to bring.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Okay, want me to dive in?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I loved everything Matt said. I would say you don't have to do any homework. You don't have to do the exercise in your book. In any of David's books, one thing that he or she, I don't know who it is, could do is make a list of all the good reasons not to do homework. all the advantages of not doing homework and all the disadvantages of not doing homework.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And then take a look at which list seemed like it carries more weight. Or you could ask yourself the triple paradox questions. What are all the advantages of not doing homework? What are all the disadvantages of changing that and doing homework? And what does not doing homework say about him that's super awesome? And take a look at that list and That's a little bit more complicated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And this is about the first philosophy...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Then you could start challenging some of those reasons that you've listed in those three categories.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
episode which was 407 that was on is the is there a self and that was the one that had fabrice nye with us and ed wrote us and ed is a frequent writer and we really appreciate when ed writes his comments and he said dear dr david i just want to let you know how good i believe your last couple of podcasts have been i especially enjoyed the one with fabrice nye episode 407 on is there a self
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
It brought back memories of when I first discovered you all. I submitted comments to this effect on the webpage, but I also want to contact you directly. Best regards always, Ed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I'm set.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
You said you want to ask, is the person willing to pay the price?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
What's the price?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
The price of sitting down to do the work when you don't really feel like it? Is that the price?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I was thinking, like, when you face an anxiety, like, David, you talked about facing your blood phobia when you were an intern. And I've been working with Werner Spitzfaden on my driving phobia. And to me, the price is going forward with the task, even though I feel uncomfortable physically.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Okay, Holly asks if the concept of having a personality is the same as the question of having a self. And she said a lot of things. She said, thank you for the video and I assume also the podcast on this topic. And it was really clear to me. It's a shame that the chapter of your Feeling Great book was removed because to me this philosophical point
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
is one important tool among the many techniques that you propose to get rid of negative thinking and to heal.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
That's interesting. I think we'll probably be talking about that soon on another podcast. So going back to Holly, she wrote, what you said about the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual is refreshing, and I agree with you. You said schizophrenia and bipolar I are mental disorders, and you explained why. But what would be a third disorder? Psychopathology? Psychopathy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
So she continued that it would be really nice if you did another video where you dug into this topic. Your voice on it is really important and what the APA is doing is really concerning and other psychiatrists disagree with the business of labeling people. She's saying that she believes that you're right. It's detrimental to human beings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
There's another psychological concept that you didn't talk about, however, but who looks similar to the self, which is the personality. What is your take on it? Is the self the same or different from the personality? And lastly, now in the spiritual domain, is the notion of the soul the same for you than the self?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Or in your opinion, could it be a possibility of an essential part of us which links us all to the spirit, to spirituality? I'm looking forward to watching other philosophical videos. Holly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Oh, because I'm trying not to make noise and I'm taking notes and I'm aware that I'm taking notes. I mean I'm making noise while I'm taking notes. That's all. I'm grimacing because of me, not you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, the intensive was magnificent. You were on top of your game. You had lots of really fun stories to tell. It was very inspiring. It was fun that you taught with Jill because she also added specific details. And it was great that the two of you played off each other, taught back and forth with each other. You did a really great example of offering personal work to someone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Robin Williams.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
OK, that's good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Me too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, one thing that they all have in common is they're all immortal. Right. So like when you die, your soul dies and your personality. And if there is a self, which we don't think there is, will also die.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
why I added that it's just you know like when you've seen a dead body you know that their soul which I don't I haven't that often because Jews actually don't believe in open caskets so but anyway you know clearly when someone has passed away they do not you can't feel a soul any longer
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Like that emotional, I don't know if it's emotional or spiritual energy, but the energy that's named, that's given the sounds and the syllable of soul seems to have left.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
who I believe are going to publish the personal work on the podcast pretty soon. Oh, good. And then pretty much everybody had a very positive experience learning how to apply the Team CBT model on Saturday evening. And I believe that all of the feedback scores that you got,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Good point. That's powerful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
All right. So the headline for this question would be, Could questions about the self and free will involve all or nothing thinking? Hi, I'd like to tell you about my experience with my son. He is 14 years old, and despite our honest attempts not to label, he has always been the problem child, selfish, disobedient, etc. Recently, we started him on Prozac, and the changes have been incredible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
from the participants on all of the days were extremely high and they got higher as the intensive went on um it was for me as someone that was it was like the 10th one i've gone to it was always it was inspiring and rejuvenating so i loved being there
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Things that have been way beyond his best times are now simple, like going to sleep on time or having a good time with his brother. Every night, my wife and I tell each other about some new miracle. So I wonder what you can say about this from the lens of free will.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
An obvious conclusion would be that the choices he made until now were not free because his brain was not presenting him with the same set of choices that other kids experience. On the other hand, if he's acting better now, we could say that it is not his choice. It's just a pill making the decision for him. I feel like that would be insulting and degrading.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I wonder if a lot of resistance to therapy, and especially psychopharmacotherapy, is related to anxiety about the question, if I can be changed by a pill, then who am I? I had another thought after listening to the episode on self. The position that self doesn't exist seems extreme to me, maybe like all or nothing thinking. Maybe we could answer that question with the magic dial.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
How much do we agree that there are selves and free wills? I agree that there are problems associated with having a self and free will, but I think there are practical and theoretical reasons on the other side as well. Maybe the golden path is in the middle.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
What do you think of this person?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
My thinking is this topic is over my head. And it would be a good thing for me to not add anything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I am a little curious because you both have strong opinions about psychopharmacology. What do you think about the question, if I can be changed by a pill, then who am I?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, we also don't know what other factors could be. We don't know enough about what's going on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I think it'll intrigue people even more. And the thing I meant when I said we don't know all of the conditions or everything that's happening in this family is that there could be lots of other things going on that we don't know about. Exactly. Did he change therapists? Is it a school situation? Did his brother change? Toward him, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I mean, there's so many other things going on that I'd want to know about before I make a judgment. But I love what you both said. And you both have so much experience with medication.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
That is interesting. Actually, fascinating.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Thank you. And I have two more things to talk about today. Recently, Phil Donahue died, David, and I wanted to get your reaction to that because I know you were on Phil Donahue briefly when your book Feeling Good came out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, that's an amazing story. And we also wanted to have the opportunity to introduce our sound and video technician who has saved the day many times with our struggling technology. And that's Max Cosma, who just joined us. Hi, Max.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Which we take.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, and people came from all over the world. There was people there from Australia, from Switzerland, from Canada. I can't remember where else, but people were— Well, there were even some from San Francisco. San Francisco! Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, people came from – but also people came from New Jersey and San Diego, like throughout the country and around the world.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Sure. So let's start with question number one, which is not really a question. It was a comment that someone made on Reddit that we thought was worthy of a response. And the summary is that, you know, somebody wrote that your comments on the self were shallow, mocking and restless. And what he wrote was the recent episode on Do I Have a Self, which was actually episode 407.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
were very shallow and mocking of people who thought there was a soul or self. Given a soul is a prerequisite for most religions, dismissing it out of hand without meaningful discussion seems reckless. And I just want to say before you answer it that often I read these endorsements which are pretty glowing of you and the podcast and the work that you do and so we also appreciate these kinds of
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Communications with us that are more challenging. You know, we want to show all of people's thoughts and feelings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
You kind of sound like the giant fee-fi-fo-fum. Anyway, hi, David, and hello, Matt, and welcome to all of our listeners around the world and throughout the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good Podcast, and it's episode 416. And because Matt's here, you know it's another Ask David episode.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
You're such a great role model, Matt. I really appreciate everything that you said. And I, I have to agree with you that I think I also was kind of mocking and these philosophy podcasts, a lot of it went over my head and I felt a little pressure to add things when I caught, I would probably would have been better for me to just keep nodding and saying, uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I, I could have, um, you know, as a Jewish person, I often find like I, I'm taking another online class and the person scheduled two of the dates on pretty significant Jewish holidays. And I thought, oh, you know, it's just sort of something I'm used to because people don't pay attention to Jewish holidays the way they do to other holidays.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I felt kind of left out and that there was a shallowness. And so I really related to this person's comment that if we said anything that was disrespectful to any religion or any spiritual belief system, that I feel a ton of regret about that and also feel sad and unhappy and a little irritated with myself for participating in that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I'm thankful that they brought this up so that we can, you know, like repair this and talk about it and, you know, encourage them to keep listening to and keeping us on our toes because it's really helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
It's interesting because the familiarity with meditation was in the 60s. You said the finishers, it was 69%, and it was still in the 60s but lower, right, for the non-finishers?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
What do you make of that, Jason? So this group of people are fairly familiar with meditation, and yet they have this idea, this thought, that 25% of the non-finishers and 11% of the finishers thought that meditation would be painful or difficult. 13% of the non-finishers thought that it would make them feel worse. And that 26%, which seems pretty high, that it would be a complete waste of time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And my guess is that people who are familiar with meditation would not fall into those belief systems.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Right. I find that surprising.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yep.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So Jason, are you looking at the non-finishers as your control group, kind of?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
It's a good start.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Wait, Jason, what was it called?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
After each one?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And they're doing one meditation at a time consecutively?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I know. I want to be a member of that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I love these different choices, Jason. Four of them are all about internal, your body, counting your breath. paying attention to your breath and the things around you, thinking, breathing, hearing, planning, experiencing. And then the one, the loving kindness is focusing outward, like sending out loving kindness to, you do do it toward yourself, but you're sending it out towards others.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And then the do nothing meditation, I guess, fits its own separate category. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
55.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Not surprising to me is that the biggest drop was after the loving-kindness meditation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Right, right, right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yes, absolutely, yeah. I wasn't paying attention to that. I was hypothesizing about loving kindness, so I zeroed in on that. But you're right, that's the biggest change, an immediate change. Yeah. Super interesting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
That is the big question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Or because it was relaxing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I imagine that the last one, the do nothing meditation, runs the risk of obsessionally thinking about your negative thought. Like with the body scan and the counting and the loving kindness meditation and even with the Vipassana where you're paying attention to what's going on internally and externally. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
You have that 10-minute break from your thought that you described, like you're separating yourself from the break. But the do-nothing meditation where you're doing nothing, it seems to me that could be inviting yourself to obsess about the negative thought and bring that back up. And that's why I think it's really interesting that with that fifth meditation, things stayed pretty much the same.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Like there really wasn't much of an improvement with that fifth meditation. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
On average.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
No, you go for it. I just asked one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Okay, great. So now that you've defined that, Do you remember your question?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And how did you come up with that time, 10 minutes?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Jason, do you want to answer that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I have thoughts about that too, but you go first.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Hello, David, and hello to all of our listeners around the country, around the world, and throughout the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast, episode 420, and we were lucky enough to have Jason Minow back as our very special guest.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, and can I take a stab at answering their question, David?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So when I started meditating a long time ago, I definitely had the expectation it would be good for me. And that's why I started. People around me said, oh, you should meditate. It's really good for you. It's really good for you. And so that's why I started. And in the beginning, I was bored and I felt angry a lot. And I had a lot of adverse feelings come up like, why am I doing this?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
This is really dumb. I don't think this is helping. But also I had a lot of negative, yucky feelings come up that didn't feel good. But then because of that expectation, this is good for me, I had the motivation to continue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And the more I continued, like practicing a musical instrument or practicing any kind of a TMCBT technique, the more I practiced it, the better I got at it and the more calm I could be as a result of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I think that's a really good way to describe it. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And then they just and then they fade away.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
That's you generally as a whole, Jason, from your years of meditating, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And this is completely anecdotal. I wish I could have been a part of your study. But to me, it's really hard. I can't see... in my own personal experience that meditation has any effect on my negative thoughts, but it does have an effect on helping me feel calmer. And I would tend to be in the group of people that are at risk to ruminate on negative thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So I have to really fight against that. And so that like the, the do nothing meditation would probably be more damaging to me than guided meditation. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, and Max wanted me to ask you a question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Could it simply be the choice to engage in a practice for betterment that caused the improvement?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And that's kind of the pleasure predicting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I'll pay more attention to the wording. Could it be simply the choice to engage in a practice for betterment that caused the improvement?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So, and Jason, how did you find the subjects there are the subjects, the people who did it, they were all members of the new cool tools club.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Well, David, were we thinking of inviting a Buddhist monk, a Jewish rabbi, a Muslim imam, and Christian spiritual leaders so that we could have a bunch of different perspectives?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Okay. Well, thank you, Jason, so much for coming on to the podcast and explaining about your experiment. And Jason, are you looking for more people to become members of your new cool tools club?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
This has been another episode of the feeling good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Did you ask the 25 people why they dropped out?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And today is going to be a monumental podcast because we're going to hear a shift in David's thinking based on his favorite topic, research. And our topic today is really awesome. It's on team and negative thoughts and the mindfulness mystery. So let me turn it over to you, David and Jason, and you can tell us about your research and what you've done.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, really? That was the question? A complete waste of time?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah. So, uh, You can take a free ride on it and then you can buy it for a year for $99. And if you can't afford the $99, just contact us and we'll give it to you for free because this isn't so much about money as trying to change the world and bring relief to so many people who are struggling and may be listening at this very moment to this podcast and wondering, Is my life worth living?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And why am I so worthless and inadequate? And is there any hope for me?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah, it's amazing. It's really amazing. We think the app is going to be a major breakthrough. And I'm just so grateful that Brandon and And Heather, you two are going to add the cherry on the top of the chocolate sundae. Nice. So go to feelinggreatapp.com forward slash app group.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Feelinggreattherapycenter.com forward slash app group. App group, exactly. Okay. Now we're going to have our first Ask David question here in a minute, which is going to be on self-esteem. You guys can hang around and shoot the breeze with us, or you can shoot off to your other duties for the day.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Favorite people in the world. I love you both.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
So three, which is the one that you don't love? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
It was nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah. Yeah. They're very unusual. Unusually skilled. Yeah, unusually skilled and unusually warm and unusually giving and committed to providing help for people. They're jaw-droppingly wonderful. Well, let's get on to this group, which is also jaw-droppingly wonderful. At least two of us are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
There's a lot of questions. It's going to be all about self-esteem. And I think the first question is, and we have, you know, five questions from listeners. And so, but we promised self-esteem today, so we made that the number one question. But here are the questions about self-esteem. Well, first of all, I guess we could say, well, how does self-esteem differ from self-confidence?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And a lot of people, in addition to using an app and getting really rapid changes in how you think and feel, like to connect with others and have people to schmooze with and ask questions and practice with. And Brandon and Heather have an amazing way of talking about it. And we'll do that now. And I will shut up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And we'll get everyone's opinion on that. How does self-esteem differ from self-acceptance? Because self-acceptance is a big buzzword these days. The third question is, what's the difference between conditional and unconditional self-esteem? The fourth question is, what's the best way to develop self-esteem?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And the fifth question is, what do you, David, mean when you say that once you've developed unconditional self-esteem, you should get rid of it as fast as possible? That doesn't make sense. Did you really say that, David? Yes, I did when I was a younger man. What did you mean by that? I'll have to wait until we get to that question. Okay, cranky one. So let's start out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Should we start out with a sixth question? What is self-esteem? Yes. All righty. Well, there's some great answers to that. And... Matt or Rhonda will give us the first definition.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Oh, yeah. The e-book, the book, 10 Days to Self-Esteem, my first book, Feeling Good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
OK, well, that's a great definition. How about how about you, Matt? What's your definition?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
To respect and admire oneself. That's cool. And I would say that self-esteem is the decision to – can you hear that furniture being moved around upstairs? You can?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah, let me just give a shout upstairs. You guys can talk and say some cool things. So you can turn off that noise.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Well, I don't know what I missed out on, but where are we now in our dialogue? So we defined self-confidence as...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah, the way I think about self-esteem, it's the decision to love yourself as much when you fail as when you succeed, or perhaps even more when you fail and when you're hurting. And that's when we love, say, our animals the most, when they're hurting, like if they've been in an accident or something. They're sick or children or, you know, loved ones. And it's nothing that you have to earn.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
It's something that you give yourself as a gift. And then to me, self-confidence is more the idea that something is... I'm probably going to be reasonably successful at something like... And the show today, we're kind of just doing this spontaneously without any preparation whatsoever, except to line up some great questions to answer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But I have a lot of self-confidence because I've worked with Rhonda, you and Matt, you on so many times. And I know... how spontaneous and wise and loving and caring and great it is just to hang out with you and answer these questions for people and that type of thing. But, you know, I do a lot of things that, you know, I don't succeed at.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And there are people who are way more successful than we are on podcasts. I guess there are people who have millions of viewers every podcast. I don't know how they do it, but they're, better at marketing than I am and Rhonda is for sure. But I just love being with you guys and respect you. And it's fun to bring our gift, what we have to share to people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And there's no judgment of being, gosh, I have to have success or so much success to be worthwhile or to have self-esteem. So that's my way of thinking about it. Self-esteem. And then here's another question we've got, since we've got you experts here. Actually, there's no expertise. These are just metaphors, ways of thinking about things that might be helpful to some people. But self-acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
or acceptance in general, is a huge buzzword. And we did some podcasts not far back with some research I did in a survey showing that self-acceptance is, in fact, something which causes a tremendous boost in negative feelings, you know, reduction in negative feelings and a boost in positive feelings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And at the same time that people resist self-acceptance because people think they can't distinguish healthy self-acceptance from unhealthy self-acceptance. And they think that self-acceptance means accepting the fact that you're going to have a terrible, mediocre life and you're never going to be able to contribute anything. And they think of it as a bad thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But what is the difference, folks, between self-acceptance and self-esteem? This is critically important. And Rhonda will now explain in lucid terms what is the difference.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Okay. It's imagining that you have a self that you're approving of, and that's what self-acceptance is?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Do you accept yourself or do you accept your attributes?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
So there's a self involved there. What's your idea about it, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah. And then what is unconditional self-esteem?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Right. That's beautifully stated. And then what does it mean that... And by the way, when people are growing up, like in school, you're taught conditional self-esteem. You know, the teachers will tell you, well, you're special because you have a pretty singing voice or you have pretty eyes or because you're good in sports or something like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
So you think that you have to have some special kinds of... superior appearance or skills in order to be worthwhile.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Well, yeah, because, you know, what happens if you lose your eyes? I saw someone who had actually lost their eyes. And so if they've been taught that you're special when they were little because of your pretty blue eyes... then, you know, you're in a pretty precarious situation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And like if I was to base my self-esteem on my running speed, I would have had pretty mediocre self-esteem because I've never been a super fast runner. And now that I can barely walk due to my low back pain, I'd be really in a, what the... Buddha called an S.H. hole. The hell realm. Type of thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Well, yes. It's just the decision to love yourself as you are, including your strengths and your weaknesses. And you just make a decision that you're worthwhile. And it doesn't have to be earned in any way. And then... What does it mean? Some fellows said once you've developed unconditional self-acceptance or unconditional self-esteem, you want to get rid of it as fast as possible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
What does that mean?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
He's old now. That would be a hint.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah. So what's the secret then of a happy life?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah. Like, say to me, David, you're really kind of worthless, right? David, you're kind of worthless. I don't know what you're thinking about, but whatever it is, it's just the tip of the iceberg. Can you tell me what you've noticed recently?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah. And it's moving beyond the idea that we have a self or need a self. and that things have to be measured. And when I'm with you two, I'm grateful because it's a really wonderful experience. Rhonda, I love your kindness, your humor, your great sense of humor. Matt, there's nothing really that I... But just teasing. But that it's just it's just, you know, grateful to be here.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
We won't be here forever. You know, these are the good old days right now. Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And and it's just it's just it's a great thing. And if you don't feel like you have to be special or you have to be worthwhile or even that you have a self, you know, I lost mine, as you both know, once. when jogging home from the train station in Philadelphia, just kind of fell off. And I've never really missed it. Now, occasionally it tries to invade my body again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And I start thinking I have a self and then I suffer with with ego or thinking, you know, getting all uptight about about something or I'm not measuring up or something like that. But these are just metaphors, and one idea of enlightenment is just letting go of all of that and living your life, talking to yourself in a loving way and treating yourself in a loving way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
That's, I think, the secret of self-esteem and beyond is the decision to be kind and loving to yourself. I make the decision to be kind and loving to our cat, Sweetie Pie, and she didn't earn it in any way, but it's just a great joy to be with her, and she just purrs like crazy, and she's quick to show her gratitude.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And just to give, my wife said, maybe it's enough for a life just to, if you really are dedicated to being very loving to a cat, maybe that would be enough. And I certainly feel the same way. Well, have we covered all the bases on self-esteem? I think so. We've done a pretty good job.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And the practical side of it is if you're feeling down and unhappy, then you have low self-esteem. And that's always because of your thoughts, talking to yourself in a mean, self-critical way. And the decision to stop doing that, that's the decision that leads you out of depression and into joy. Right. We fight against self-esteem. We fight against self-acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And we think that being mean to ourselves, saying, oh, David, you screwed up. You're not good enough. You should be ashamed of yourself. You're such a loser. You have this defect. You've got that defect. all that kind of stuff, that's all depression and unhappiness really is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And the capacity to get out of it is simply to make the decision to stop doing that to yourself and to treat yourself in a loving way. Not because you've earned it, because you can't earn it, but because you've made a decision. But, you know, that may go in one ear and out the other. When you see it, it's kind of an enlightenment. But it's hard to get when you're feeling down.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And so go to the Feeling Great app and check it out. And we'll take you by the hand and show you how to make that happen. Now, I'm hearing an airplane. Yep. Oh, that's on my side. Almost like a cat purring.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
To be kind to yourself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah. I get emails from people all the time. And there's so many of them now, I'm really starting to drown in emails trying to catch up. Yeah. I kind of took kindly to a fellow who said that he's struggled with, you know, chronic depression and anxiety for all of his life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
No one's been able to help him, and I just asked him for more information, and he wrote back a really long email, which is hard for me because I'm a slow reader, but it was just filled with bitterness, anger toward himself and anger toward other people. everything falling short of his expectations, he himself and others.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And I haven't even finished reading it, but I felt so sad that he's living in a self-created hell, but he doesn't realize that he's doing that creation and that we create our own emotional reality and interpersonal reality at every moment of every day. But you have to, you know, want to change. You have to want to discover that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And then you have to have the tools to make that a reality for yourself. And that's where TEAM is so powerful because we have so many tools to help someone find your way out of those black holes. And I certainly hope something can change. can happen for this individual.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But part of it is just focusing on some specific moment when you're upset rather than, like, he's in what I call a blizzard of depression and anxiety and anger. In other words, everything is swirling. Everything is bad. And that's one of the things about team. And I'm just babbling here, but these are things that I think about often.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Is, you know, the fractal focus on one moment when you're upset and then see what your thoughts are at that moment, that the negative thoughts and if you're interacting with people, what's happening in those interactions. And then first decide if you'd like to change the way you were feeling at that specific moment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And then also all of the reasons that you've been stuck, the very good reasons why you're angry, why you're anxious, why you're mad at everybody, why you're depressed and what they show about you that's really positive and awesome. And sometimes when you see that, suddenly the doors to change will open up. That's a bit of a paradox. And it has nothing to do with our show today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
So why don't we get on to the next question?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
That's the premium version. Yeah, this is the free podcast. We're going to hit a paywall here. Yeah, give us your thoughts on that, Matt. I think that'd be really neat.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
We all have our own path to enlightenment and a little different from someone else's.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah, that's one of the neat things. And if you're really good as a therapist at empathy and positive reframing and reducing resistance, we can often get to the method that works for a person in a remarkably short period of time. But one person might be helped dramatically by the cost-benefit analysis. I can remember a very angry patient with borderline personality disorder who...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
You know, the first time I saw him, I didn't know he had that diagnosis. He was just this angry physician, and apparently he'd had years of failed therapy, which I didn't realize until I talked to the person who did the intake evaluation, which was after my session with him.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But he was a doctor, and he worked in a hospital, and he was just pissed off at people, and he would have temper tantrums and get in trouble. And one of his colleagues got promoted, but he didn't, and he thought the colleague's research was phony and only phonies get ahead and all of this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And he was asked if there was any hope for someone as severe as him with so much anger and so much depression of a severe nature. And this was even in the days before paradoxical agenda setting, but the idea of it was forming in my mind before it became full-blown. I said, well, before we try to change it, let's see if we can list some of the advantages of feeling depressed and angry and anxious.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And we started listing all of the advantages, especially of his anger, And we must have come up with 18 benefits. And then at the end, I said, well, gosh, you know, this is a line from one of my students, Matt May, that we have tremendous techniques and could probably pretty easily turn your anger around, but... I don't think that would be a good idea because look at all the benefits to you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
You know, you feel morally superior and you're honest and you have integrity and you're not one of the phonies and blah, blah, blah. And he read his list and he burst into laughter and he practically fell on the floor. He was laughing so hard. And he said, this is ridiculous. I see now what I've been doing. He says, I'm cured. And it was like 15 minutes after I met him.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And that was just happened to hit on the thing that helped him. And then that weekend I went. on a hike or a jog, actually, with Tony Bates, who was a clinician in my clinic in Philadelphia. And I said, Tony, that patient you sent me was so easy to treat. It was unbelievable. And he says, yeah, you're joking, right? And he says, no, no, he was maybe the easiest patient I've ever had.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And I would say that Heather and Brandon are both shrinks, MDs, psychiatrists, like Matt, who's with us today, and David. So this is like super shrink day. But one thing about Brandon and Heather is that they're really not only fantastic teachers and therapists of the highest order of magnitude, but their heart is in the place of... giving help to people who were suffering.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And he said, no, that's impossible. That fellow has severe borderline personality disorder. He's been severe since childhood and no one's been able to help him. And I said, oh, no, that guy couldn't have borderline personality disorder. He was just a dream. He was a pleasure to work with. He's really nice and funny. And Tony says, no, I did the...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
diagnostic screening, and he has severe borderline personality disorder. And he says, you don't know what the heck you're talking about. I had a session with him. Tony says, look, Bundy, when you get back to the office, you'll see my summary. And I looked at it, and sure enough, the guy had severe borderline personality disorder.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But we just happened to stumble across the thing that opened the doors to his enlightenment. And I think what's really great is that each person can find a path that works for them. And so one of the great things about TEAM is hope that every person can change and transform your life, no matter how much suffering or how desperate your circumstances might be.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
So are you saying that's something some of our listeners might want to play with if they looked at my list of 23 self-defeating beliefs like the love addiction, the approval addiction, the achievement addiction, perfectionism, and so forth, all these things we think we need in order to feel happy and worthwhile, and then simply take a piece of paper, draw a line down the middle, and list the advantages of that belief on the left and the disadvantages on the right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And if you're doing, say, the love addiction, it's not the advantages and disadvantages of being loved. It's the advantages and disadvantages of basing your self-esteem on being loved, on needing love in order to feel happy and worthwhile. And then say, how is this going to help me? And there's a lot of ways it will help you. And how is it going to hurt me? And then balance it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Is it 50-50, 60-40, 40-60? Yeah. And that's a simple exercise anyone listening to the show right now could do. And while no one thing is guaranteed to work for everybody, that can be a tremendous eye-opener.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah, I was talking about that on the Sunday hike when when you were a resident and we were getting together for a couple hours or more every week to go over your cases and your personal life. But do you remember one day like when you found that and then suddenly you became super attractive to women? Yeah. And I remember the day you said, Dr. Burns, you used to call me Dr. Burns.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
I have a problem. I made a mistake and I have three dates scheduled tonight.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Well, and anyway, kind of cool. Let's go on to some of the other questions and give a little variety to our listeners.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah, well, we could call this a day. Okie dokie. All right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And if you didn't find it fascinating, we hope you'll come back next week for what's about to happen now, which is going to be incredibly fascinating.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And it's filled with treasures of experiences to help you change the way you feel and discover greater self-esteem, which is the topic, one of the topics in our podcast today. So I think I had interrupted you, Heather. So back to you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Where do they go to sign up and find out about it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But just because I might be not reading the show notes or something, it's feelinggreattherapycenter.com. And it's that one word, feelinggreattherapycenter.com forward slash app.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Yeah, and then you'll find all the info, and you can sign up and something very important that Rhonda will now say.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
So you're making Highland Hospital my favorite hospital in the United States. A leader, once again. I spent two years, first year of my internship and then my first year of residency there. And I totally loved Highland Hospital. And I think it's so cool that you're doing some work there, Heather. And that's really neat. I can picture it in my mind right now. Nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Well, I can tell you a study that we actually did of that a year ago with a couple of hundred people who signed up for a beta test. And we asked them, I was interested in a sophisticated study of empathy to see if people could experience empathy from the AI that we're creating today. Actually, it was before the AI. We just had the classes and lessons and a little kind of a self-help tool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But we asked them, how much warmth and understanding do you get from the people in your life, the important people, on a scale of zero to 100, where zero would be none at all and 100 would be the best? And I was very saddened to see that the mean, the average, was only about 45%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Meaning that these people who were, you know, going to the app and struggling with a lot of pretty severe mood problems weren't getting a lot of warmth and support from the people in their lives. And then we asked them to predict how much warmth and understanding do you think you'll receive from the app?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
from the Feeling Great app, and they estimated slightly more, like 55 on a 0 to 100 scale rather than 45. So they had some optimism that it would be slightly better But the actual number was 85 on a zero to 100. It was vastly beyond what they expected.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And I think that many people with the using our, now that we've got the AI as well, are experiencing better empathy even than from their loved ones or from shrinks who were theoretically experts in empathy. And so I think that's surprising. And then the other thing is, does it make any difference?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Because there's been a controversy since the time of Carl Rogers, who said that empathy is the necessary and sufficient condition for personality change. And so idealistic therapists for decades thought all you have to do is be warm and caring, and then the patient will recover. And that turned out to be not true for the most part.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But I did publish a study, the first study in the world literature to measure the causal effects of empathy from therapists, human therapists. This was using my clinic in Philadelphia.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And the data, and I published it in the world's top psychology research journal, Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, showed a modest, not an amazing, but a modest causal effect of empathy on reduction in depressed feelings. It wasn't enough to cause recovery. but it was significant.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And the study also showed that other techniques are necessary to get all the way to complete recovery from depression. But I decided to repeat that with the app, and I used something called...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
projection into linear space, which is a pretty sophisticated statistical technique where you can measure circular causality and purge variables of contaminating influences that could throw your statistics off. And that study has shown that the empathy that people receive from the app does have actually fairly significant causal effects on reducing depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
There was no causal effect in the opposite direction. Depression and anxiety levels don't influence their estimate of the app's empathy and warmth and understanding. But the degree of warmth and understanding they experience does have causal effects in improving their moods. Again, it didn't cause complete recovery, but it can happen fast within the first 10 minutes with the app.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And that can do a lot to, to raise somebody's optimism. And then you need many other techniques to, to go further. And that's, we've been, you know, I've developed 140 techniques to antidote depression and anxiety, and we're training the, the, uh, our, our AI, uh, to, to use, uh, all of them, not all of them yet, but we're adding, you know, frequently. So it, it's kind of a cool thing. And, uh,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
Well, the first thing I think we should remind them that's going to be the Feeling Great app that we'll be working on. And Brandon and Heather, you guys are geniuses at running large book groups. And now the Feeling Great app group, it's going to be amazing. And the Feeling Good or the Feeling Great app is the kind of AI powered app. Feeling Great Therapy, similar to the book Feeling Great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
You know, I once had this fellow, Sterling Morey, come from England. He was a medical student with no experience sitting in with me doing therapy in the early part of my cognitive therapy practice. He came to Philadelphia to learn cognitive therapy, so... I let him sit in with me, and he was nervous as hell, and he was young and had no psychology classes or anything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
But his empathy was world class, and people loved him instantly. And I was the teacher. He was the student. And I said, man, I've got to learn what this guy is doing because it's amazing, and he's way ahead of me. And then I learned to do what he does, and that's what I've trained the app to do. And the patients didn't care that he was young and inexperienced.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
All they cared was that his skill at understanding and providing compassion were just over the top. And that's what the app does, too. It's very kindly, and it doesn't get irritable. Of course, I don't either, but some people do. But anyway, yeah, you'll love it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
411: Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance? Do We "Need" Them?
And then if you enhance that app experience, and this is a chance to get a really beautiful compliment to working with the app, you'll have a life-changing eight weeks for sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
To the right of it. I'm sorry. Yes, to the right of it. To the left edge of the paper. Then if you go to the left, you'll be writing it on your desk. And you can do that too if you like.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yep. All right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And quick, quick comment on that. Thank you, John, for that beautiful comment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And that is true, that when you do the positive reframing skillfully, and we've been checking this out in AI because we can see now exactly where people change and a lot of improvement, not all the improvement, but a lot of improvement and negative feelings does occur during positive reframing that the AI is doing with you. And of course, if you try the AI that we sent you free.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It'll do it pretty skillfully with you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It was like the questions that I read, that we read just a couple minutes ago, right? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. Yeah. She's such a gem and a brilliant and kindly person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
What I love about what you're saying right now is that there's a discovery that happens, and it's often an unexpected discovery when you're doing positive reframing. And if you're just doing it in a formulaic way, it doesn't work. It's like anything else. It looks like a simple tool, but, you know, like I guess taking a knife to a piece of wood and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's simple, but some people can do that and make beautiful carvings and other people just like me, I would just be cutting up the piece of wood and it wouldn't look like anything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you one other thing. I love what you're saying, and I share your feelings and your convictions. And just within the last week, Jason Minow is our AI guy. He's the one who's actually doing the programming with the AI team. But I help him and we work together and provide feedback. And he's created a new form of AI, which I call multi-level.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And what we can now do with our AI, and it's a new version of positive reframing. Instead of telling you how we do it, let me say that... And you might want to test out the new version with Jason as soon as he's ready for a beta test. But it actually listens during positive reframing for the resistance of the user or the patient.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And we trained it to what to look for to find out if it's not working for the patient. Like exactly what your question was, what if it's just not turning you on, the positive reframing? And we taught it how to turn that resistance into instant understanding of positive reframing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Like the very resistance, you know, you can ask a couple questions about the person who's resisting and all of a sudden they're into positive reframing on that deeper level. So I hope this doesn't sound too grandstanding or overly dramatic, as you mentioned in your paragraph, in your beautiful note.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But it's trying to make that gift to everyone, because that's where a lot of the healing power lies, for sure. And it's not what I was trained in when I was learning cognitive therapy. It didn't exist at that time, but it exists now. And it's like having... supercharged cognitive therapy, or what I say, cognitive therapy on steroids is another way of putting it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And we are trying to bottle that gift as effectively as humanly possible or non-humanly possible with AI.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I think so. And my only request to the world is if you can maybe from time to time, if you've got your own website or your own whatever, to acknowledge where some of this came from. Mm-hmm. because I remember when I wrote Feeling Good, I was so grateful for having learned a lot from Aaron Beck. And even though we didn't have all the answers, he sure knew a hell of a lot more than I did.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And so I referred to him, I think, I went through the book and counted 38 references to Aaron Beck, and they were all in a flattering context. And And I remember when I sent Feeling Good to Albert Ellis, because I had just met him and I thought, well, maybe I could get an endorsement from him.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, that's so neat. Thanks, Dan. You really warm my heart. I sent that to all the members of our app team, especially Jason Minow, who's done so much groundbreaking work in developing our version of AI and training the AI. And it's just so gratifying to see that it's caught your fancy. And if there's any listeners out there who want to support us,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then he wrote back and said, well, I wouldn't mind giving you an endorsement, but you didn't give me any. And maybe you would want to acknowledge that cognitive therapy was actually developed from my work in the 1950s, often without acknowledgement. And he gave me a lot of references to his first book, Reason and Emotion in Psychotherapy. And I saw that he was exactly right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So then I acknowledged him, too, at the beginning of Feeling Good as one of the forerunners, one of the incredibly important historic figures. And I always appreciated him after that. And he always appreciated my work. by acknowledging him, as so many people stole from him, like Wayne Dyer with his book, Your Erroneous Zones. It was a multi-million number one bestseller.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But it's just someone went to one of Alice's workshop, Wayne Dyer did, and was turned on. I think it was a weekend workshop. And then he just wrote it all up as if it was his own. And he was a good con man. And he, you know, wrote very persuasively and he was very charming on interviews. But he did not acknowledge the contributions of...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You know, Albert Ellis, and I once asked Albert Ellis, don't you get mad at people like Wayne Dyer who steal from you without acknowledging? And he says, you know, he was a New Yorker, so he talked like this. He says, no, I never got angry. And I said, well, why is that, Dr. Ellis?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Why don't you get angry at the people who are ripping you off and stealing your ideas and pretending like they're your own? And he said, well, I'll tell you why, David, because those people are assholes. And that's what assholes are supposed to do. They should do that. Asshole, you should expect assholes to steal. And I thought that was a funny response. I never...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
believed him 100% that he never got angry because he was actually a pretty angry guy. But I loved him. And we all owe so much to his fantastic contributions to the field. So if you think my contributions have significance, you know, it doesn't hurt to let people know because I, like Albert Ellis, appreciate being acknowledged.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And let's skip the second paragraph.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, I'll give a quick answer, then we'll get an answer from Rhonda, and then we'll do some role-playing techniques and demonstrate the response. But let me first say that we have had podcasts on what a 49-year-old lady suffering from a red face can do. And there are podcasts, number 88, called Role-Play Techniques, Feared Fantasy Revisited. And podcast 168, The Blushing Cure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You know, go to feelinggreat.com, not my website, which is feelinggood.com. Go to feelinggreat.com and you can check it out there or go to either of the app stores, the Apple Store or the Google Play Store. Our app is in there, Feeling Great, and you can take a free ride on it and see what you think.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And there'll be links in the show notes or you can go to my website, feelinggood.com. And there's a list of all of our podcasts with links to them. So you can link to those. But to give the answer to you in a nutshell is your problem, and this is just self-help on this show. We can't treat you or prescribe anything or tell you what to do or what not to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But to my way of thinking, your problem results 100% from non-self-acceptance. You're trying to hide or control yourself. you're blushing and you're profuse sweating. And I've treated many people who blush and sweat profusely. And I know how to help people get over it and we'll demonstrate it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But the key involves accepting the fact that you blush, that this is one of the things that your body does. And none of your anxiety comes from your sweating or from your blushing, but from distorted thoughts about it. And we'll show you how to crush those thoughts in just a minute. But I love your question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I'm so glad that you wrote to us because there's a lot of people out there right now listening at this very moment who are trying so hard to fix this thing that's wrong with them or that thing that's wrong with them. And whereas the actual, that's the actual problem that you keep trying to fix yourself, thinking that you're not good enough, where the solution is self-acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And I've often said, and no one yet has understood it, everyone thinks they understand it, but they don't. But self-acceptance is the greatest change a human being can make. Self-acceptance, accepting yourself exactly as you are with all your sweat and all your bright red face, red as a clown's red lipsticks, accepting that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's not giving in, but it's transforming your life because self-acceptance is the greatest change a human being can make. And the moment you accept yourself, everything will change. But back to you, Rhonda. We'll give you a chance to respond to this, and then we can do a little fantasy role play if you like.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I don't recommend that one, actually. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
No, because you're forcing people into an awkward position of thinking they have to cheer you up in some lame manner and insist that they're not turned off. And think of people who are honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there's ways to do it that get around that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, great. Great. Okay. And feared fantasy is a form of exposure and shame attacking. Okay, let's do that. Yeah, okay. And do you want to be the blusher or the blushee? One of us can be the stranger from hell, and one will play the role of Anne. I want to play the role of Anne. Okay. And let's say we've just met, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And if you find it helpful and exciting, tell your friends and colleagues about it, too, because you're our marketing team right now. And we're relying on word of mouth to get the word out that there's something really exciting that can help you change the way you think and feel and can happen very rapidly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And I'm gonna be the person who says all the things that you believe others are thinking, but would never dare to say. And we do it, that's what the feared fantasy technique is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
This isn't practice for real life, because people don't say these things to you in real life, but we're helping you get over your fear in a kind of a fantasy land, the Alice in Wonderland nightmare world, where your worst fears do come true. And if you like what we're doing or want to understand it better, you can go to those two podcasts and it'll be explained further.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But tell me what your name is. Like we're just meeting and I'll be the stranger from hell, the one that Anne has always feared. I'm Joan. Joan. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My name's David. Could I ask you a question, Joan?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I noticed that when we met, your face has just turned bright red, and you look as red-faced as a clown, all covered with red lipstick or something. And I can see little beads of perspiration and sweat forming on you. Is there something wrong with you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, I think that's disgusting. Yeah. Oh, wow.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Okay, goodbye. Okay, bye. Okay, who won, would you say? I won. No, how big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, that was pretty cool. Now, one thing is you escaped through avoidance, and that's, of course, the cause of all anxiety, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. You were like telling the person to get lost. And it was kind of cool because you were sticking up for yourself. But I'll show you. And probably my comment just now wasn't entirely accurate. But I'll show you a slightly different style.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, really? You're grossed out? I've been sweating like this, proudly sweating, since I was five years old and blushing. But it seems like it's disgusting to you, and I'm sorry because I didn't mean to upset you. Can you tell me more? what's disgusting about it because once you get to know me better, you'll see that this is one of my lesser flaws.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Actually, I have tons of shortcomings, but tell me what, why is it, is it upsetting to you that my face is red and that I'm sweating?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Right. Right. But the people often resist enlightenment. That's been the Buddha's problem 2,500 years ago and ever since when he's gotten reincarnated over and over in different individuals. He keeps noticing that people don't want to do the very thing that will give them enlightenment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And the Buddha found that frustrating 2,500 years ago, and still he finds it frustrating in many of his current incarnations. But the reason that people are afraid is you think that acceptance is the same as giving up or giving in and that something terrible is going to happen. And so you think you have to change yourself in some way to be special, to be lovable, to be worthwhile.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And that's the cause of your misery. And that's the distortion that's causing your pain. Your pain never came from blushing. Your pain came from your own lack of self-acceptance, your own self-criticism. Other people's criticisms of you could never upset you unless you buy into them. And then it's your own thoughts that you're believing that's upsetting you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
No, that's not right. It's all about David. Yes, it's all about trying to help get the word out to more people who are suffering that these are some tools that you can use to actually change the way you think and feel. And there's the little chat box. which will talk to you in much the same way I would be talking to you in an actual therapy session. It's not actual therapy. It's a self-help tool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So let's do a couple more role reversals to see if we can drive this home. Could I talk to you for a minute, Rhonda, or whatever your name is?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Your face just turned bright red. Are you blushing?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, that's a childish thing to do. That's ridiculous for a grown adult to be blushing. Do you realize how silly and ridiculous you look right now? I mean, everybody, come and look at this woman. Her face is as bright as a stoplight. It's red, bright red.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, yeah. I have a friend who works for the Palo Alto Times newspaper. And I'm going to mention to them, you know, so they can run an article on you and how ridiculous you are with a grown woman blushing and sweating for no reason at all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, it's just abnormal. You're abnormal. I don't blush. I don't associate with people who blush. None of my friends blush. They're all very confident and courageous people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's one of my qualities, just like talking to you. I would rather go to the direction as, you know, blushing is just one of my many flaws. Yeah, one of my many flaws. And if you get to know me, you'll find out that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Because, you know, you can't... change yourself with bullshit that you don't believe. Do you think Anne believes that blushing is one of her strengths?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. To me, that's vastly more powerful. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's a little thing on blushing. Now, how are we doing? That was fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, yeah. And yeah, it was a great. Yeah, I love this. You know, when you folks send us questions, we have to scratch our heads and figure out how we're going to answer them. And it helps us with our learning. And we hope our answers help you with your learning too. Yeah. And should we call it a day?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
No, but let's take question number five, which is a short one that we won't get bogged down in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I'll give you first dibs, which I should always be doing on these questions, and then I'll give you my answer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
We're not involved in doing therapy, but we do want to help you with your negative feelings and do that rapidly. So check it out, the Feeling Great podcast. in the stores, the app stores, or just go to feelinggreat.com and learn all about it. And let me know what you think, and we'll read your responses on the show. Yeah, that's fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I don't know. What do you think? Well, it's close to that. When I first was learning cognitive therapy and I developed externalization of voices where you do, you know, as you're so familiar, the intensive role play back and forth, hitting each other with the patient's negative thoughts. They attack me. I attack them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
In the early days, often they'd have some thought that I couldn't help them answer within the session. So they might have the idea. I remember a woman I was working with, and she became an appendix in the book, Intimate Connections, because she believed that she was just average. There was nothing special about her. And she was a clinical social worker, and she was unmarried.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And she said, I don't have a husband. I just have an ordinary job. I just have an ordinary intelligence. So there's nothing special about me. And that's a fact. So in reality, not an especially worthwhile human being. And we did role playing back and forth for four full hours, not all at once, an hour a week for four weeks.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And neither one of us could figure the answer to it, how to accept this about yourself and still feel happy. And then it hit her halfway through the fifth session and she became enlightened. And we saw it suddenly at the same time. And that happened to me all the time. I would leave a session thinking, gosh, this person thinks they're worthless. And I think they're worthless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So they probably are worthless. How am I going to help them? Would you really think they were worthless? Oh, yeah. I got hypnotized by every patient. It still happens at the beginning of their work. Every depressed person tries to convince me that they're hopeless and worthless. They're the one who can't get better. And they're very good. They're brilliant debaters.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And they used to persuade me all the time. And it would take a day or two after the session, I'd say, ah, that's where they were getting distorted. And then I'd see them the next time. I'd say, I think I figured it out. And then they'd get it. And then they'd feel better. But cognitive therapy and its new inheritance team, CBT, look simple, but they're not. They're very sophisticated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
These are the most challenging forms of psychotherapy ever created.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And they require a certain deep discovery, a certain deep understanding that transforms your life. And I used to and still do. You know, I wake up in the middle of the night with answers to questions I didn't have when I went to sleep.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And often the questions when I was in clinical practice seeing 6, 8, 10, 12 or more people in a single day, I'd have a lot of them that I couldn't figure out how to talk back to their negative thoughts. And then it would occur to me. I mean, effectively, see, the positive thought has to be 100 percent true and it has to drastically reduce your belief in your negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
That's the necessary and sufficient condition for emotional change. The necessary condition is you have to combat your negative thought, like I'm a loser, with a positive thought that's 100% true. A half-truth will never work. But in addition, the positive thought has to totally crush the negative thought and suddenly see that it's garbage. You see your belief and it goes down to 5% or 10% or 0%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And that's the sufficient condition for emotional change. And so... If you don't get a mood boost until a couple days after doing, say, a daily mood log, well, that happened to me every time when I was inventing. Team CBT and refining cognitive therapy. One day was called cognitive therapy. And I had exactly the same experience.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then as I got older, it got to where I could figure out the effect of positive responses just like right away after doing it for 40, 50 years or however many years I've been doing it. And so that's my interpretation. It isn't quite what you said, Rhonda, which is that you talked about something kind of wearing off or something like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, you get an insight as to why your negative thought is screwed up. And the very moment you have that insight and you can actually see it. So it's as obvious as the fact right now I can see that there's skin on my hands and there's no doubt about that. And the moment you get it with that degree of clarity in that very instant, your feelings will change. And that could very well happen.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
A couple of days after you've been working and that just shows you have a brain just like mine, that you have a nice subconscious mind that works overtime for you when you're not thinking about it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, it took us five hours together.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You have to buy my book, Intimate Connections, and read the appendix to find out because I can't remember right now. But again, the answer to it is it's the same as what we've been telling people in today's podcast. The problem is not that she isn't good enough. What is her problem, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, she's beating up on herself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Now, let me ask you, let's say that she's going to pick up her child at school. And she finds out her child is out playing with other children on the swings and things. Would she go out into the schoolyard and go up to those children one at a time and say, gee, the way you're swinging is just average. That's not Olympic quality. There's nothing special about you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Why not?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
That's the point. You know, happiness comes from self-love. And self-love is a decision you make, not something you can earn. And that's a Christian concept. I don't know if it's also a Jewish concept or... or an Islamic concept, but the Christian idea is that you don't get to heaven through your good works, but from the grace of God.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And the grace of God is the grace of a colleague who treats you in a loving way, or the grace you give yourself to treat yourself in a loving and compassionate way. And that's the meaning of God. Exactly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. And keep sending us your great questions because we really love answering your questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, John has given us many great questions and two questions for today's podcast. And this is the first of the two. And I'll spout out my quick answer and then get your input on that. But when I wrote Feeling Good, and that was 1978 I started writing it, and it was published in 1980.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
One of the things that I did that was very important was to say, a lot of you reading this book, if you do the written exercises, you'll probably be able to get a real mood boost on your own, even without a therapist. But at the same time, it's really easy to get stuck. And in that case, two heads are often better than one. And there's no shame in going to a therapist to help you get unstuck.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And so I feel exactly the same way today. If you can use, say, my book, Feeling Great, or our new Feeling Great app, the odds are high that you'll be able to get some genuine change in the way you think and feel just by doing the exercises in the book or the exercises in the app. But sometimes it takes two heads to help you figure out why you're stuck and how to get unstuck.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And so, you know, I strongly encourage you to seek help, particularly if you're having severe symptoms or struggling with suicidal thoughts or fantasies. You definitely need to have face-to-face help. And you still might love the app or you still might love my books and find them helpful. But sometimes a human therapist is absolutely necessary.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
necessary for you to be treated safely and effectively. My books aren't therapy and the app is not therapy. It's just self-help. And finally, you asked the really cool question, well, why do therapists, why are we therapists screwed up as our own patients? That's the question really that you're trying to ask. Because when we have therapists on as patients, I do that because
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's not considered therapy, and I'm no longer in clinical practice, but I do demonstration sessions with real people to show you how the techniques work with real people. But it's always easier to see how someone else's thoughts are distorted and have a blind spot about where we're fooling ourselves, even if you are a therapist.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And that's why even therapists sometimes, I would say frequently, need a little bit of TLC and help from a friend, in this case, David and Jill, or sometimes David and Rhonda working together to help you change the way you think and feel. And now Rhonda is going to give another extraordinarily important point.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. And that moves us to John's second question, which is all about positive reframing. And we can maybe mention what there's actually three or four or five questions you can ask yourself when you're doing positive reframing. But let's read the question and tell people what positive reframing is and then answer John's question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Should we answer that question first? Yeah. Before we go on, I think that can be answered by doing a paradoxical cost-benefit analysis. And you can make a list of all the advantages and benefits of ignoring. Well, first of all, positive reframing isn't about your positive points. Or your positive qualities. That's called cheerleading, and everyone resists cheerleading.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So the reason you're running into resistance may be that you're trying to cheer yourself up by listing all the wonderful things about you. And I hate it when people do that. I've never once seen that be helpful, although we're doing some research on hypnosis, giving people positive suggestions, and maybe it will cheer them up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
In positive reframing, you start with a daily mood log in a situation where you're upset. And you didn't send that for us, so this is all going to be abstract and theoretical rather than a specific example, which would have been much more clarifying, I think, for you and for our audience, but it's still important. And then you list all of your negative feelings like...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Depressed, 80%, anxious, 100%, ashamed or guilty, 80%, inferior, 90%, whatever all of these are. And then your negative thoughts like, I'm a loser, I should be better than I am, and so forth. And when you do positive reframing, you ask yourself the following questions. Number one, you can say, is there some truth in these negative thoughts and feelings?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You know, are they appropriate given my situation? Like when I'm calling myself a loser or whatever it is, what is the truth in that? Is there some truth there? This is clearly not what you're doing, judging from the paragraph we just read. You're trying to build up your positives, and I'm saying let's build up your negatives.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then the second thing you can do is say, and what are some values of beating up on myself like this and having these negative thoughts and feelings? And can they be motivating, for example? Can anxiety be helpful to you? Does it protect you from danger? Does it keep you vigilant, for example? And then a third question you can ask is what...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So what do these negative thoughts and feelings show about me and my core values that's positive and awesome? For example, if you're very self-critical, does this show that you're perfectionistic and have high standards? Mm-hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then finally, you can ask yourself the question, are there some bad things that would happen if I stopped beating up on myself and making myself feel depressed, angry, anxious, hopeless, and so forth? That's kind of the essence of positive reframing. Those are the kinds of questions you ask yourself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And if you like, Rhonda, I don't know if that was helpful so far, but we can read the next three paragraphs of his question if you think that might be helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, you never know what kind of question is going to lead people to the insight where you have the aha moment, but we're trying to get to an aha moment. And the aha moment isn't you know, thinking you're some kind of wonderful person, but beginning to see the beauty in your negative self-critical thoughts and your negative feelings. Because most of the time, we feel ashamed of how we feel.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And one of the next questions, this woman is constantly struggling to keep herself from blushing, or you're trying to control your anxiety or your panic attacks. And that attempt to change and control things often just intensifies them. It's like trying to cheer up someone who's depressed. It never works.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
When people are depressed, they want you to empathize and understand their pain and accept how they're thinking and feeling. When you try to cheer them up, it's just a patronizing insult, really.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yes, John, it would. That's why we wish you would have given us an example. We'd be doing it right now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Only the very detailed worksheets in my book, Feeling Great. And of course, we sent you a free ride on the app. And the app does positive reframing both with AI as well as in the classes and lessons. So those are some resources that might be helpful to you. Go ahead, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
If the advantages are greater, you don't need to change it. It's working for you. If it's 50-50, I'd say let's not work on it because it takes a lot of work and you're kind of on the fence. And maybe you can come back on another occasion if you change your mind and decide that this thing isn't working for you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
But if you find that the disadvantages are greater, then you can use techniques like the semantic technique, positive reframing, the experimental technique, the feared fantasy, as well as any of the more than 100 techniques like be specific is a great technique for self-defeating beliefs. But I'll just tell you how one more of these techniques works would be the semantic technique.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
If you don't decide that it's not to your advantage to base your self-esteem and worthwhileness on your achievements or accomplishments, you could say you can rewrite it in some way that makes sense to you, a way that will eliminate all of the disadvantages and maintain all of the advantages.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Like you might say, I love working hard and creating things, and it's a lot of fun to come up with something. Say if I'm writing something or whatever, your area of achievement might be carpentry or painting or whatever. But if I come up with something really terrific that people love, It doesn't make me any better than any other person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And if I fail and have trouble in an area, it doesn't make me any less worthwhile than another person. So it's to get that judgmental. dimension out of it. And that's just an intellectual exercise, the semantic techniques. But if you're going to get rid of one belief, you have to have another belief to hang your hat on from an intellectual point of view.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
How will I judge myself if I'm not going to base my self-esteem on my achievements? And I think Jason and I would both
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
point out too that our cats tell us an awful lot about this belief because we can love our cats and love being with our cats without having to be special or without the cat having to be special just by being with each other and petting the cat and hearing the cats purr and love us and receive our love. And then positive reframing is always great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
We treated someone with perfectionism recently, Amy, and she was just beating the hell out of herself because she was failing with two of her patients. She's a psychiatrist, a high-powered, highly skillful psychiatrist, but she was just cruelly telling herself she was a fraud and a failure because she was stuck with two of her patients. And before...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Changing her negative thoughts and her beliefs, we had her see what was beautiful and awesome about her negative feelings and thoughts and what it showed about her as a human being and her core values that was positive. And because she was feeling defective and like a loser in a mental case and like she was defective in some way. And she was telling herself, I should give up psychiatry.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I should refund my patients money. She was just being horribly hard on herself. And then when she saw how beautiful these things were, they showed her love for her patients, her commitment to her work, her willingness ever since a little girl to work her ass off at things has brought her tremendous accomplishment. And she can be proud of her depression and her guilt and shame and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And they have motivated her to learn and to grow and have high standards and all of that. And once she saw how the beauty within herself and what she thought were symptoms of an illness, then suddenly the change is just, you know, a few yards away, where the stones throw away, is the way I like to say it. So that's very crucial to see the beauty in your self-defeating beliefs,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
as well as recognizing that you may be paying a heavy price. And you can do an experiment to see if the self-defeating belief is true. Is it true that everyone who accomplishes a lot is more worthwhile? Would we say that Putin is especially worthwhile? Because he's certainly accomplishing a lot. He's murdering people. He's murdered a million people now already. And so those are some of them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
of the approaches, but what you said, Matt, was really pure gold, that you can just put a self-defeating belief in the middle of a recovery circle with arrows pointing out of it, and each arrow is a different method, and you can select from the list of 50 or 100 or more methods, you can select 5, 10, 15, 20 methods to crush a self-defeating belief the same way you can crush a negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So thank you, everybody.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
How to find one? You mean using a downward arrow technique or using the list of 23 or how to?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Sure. The what-if technique is a good one to get to core fears when you're struggling with anxiety. It doesn't always get to a self-defeating belief, but can sometimes get to a self-defeating belief. The individual downward arrow would always get to a self-defeating belief.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, I'll fail my test. Yeah, great. Jason, would you like to be my co-therapist? Sure. Or the solo therapist? Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, great, great. So we'll skip empathy. We'll skip positive reframing, which we've learned in the Tuesday group is always a huge mistake. But we'll do it anyway just to uncover the self-defeating belief. And you want to kick it off, Jason? So what's the negative thought again? I might fail my test.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And by the way, you guys are moving awful fast. I'm writing everything down. And when you do this with yourself or for a patient, always have both people write it down with an arrow under each thought. And that way you can go back and review the chain. But you're off to a great start. I'll let you carry on. Jason? Jason?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
What are you most afraid of? Let's say you never get a good job. You always have kind of an average job. Yeah, that would mean I was a failure at everything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Just for the fun of it, we can go another dimension down, and let's imagine, Matt, that you were in fact worthless, and this might sound like a ridiculous question, but imagine that I'm from Mars, and I don't understand— You know what happens here on the surface of the earth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And so I would be asking you, and then on the earth, surface of the earth here, if you're worthless, why is that a bad thing? Because we don't have that way of thinking on Mars. What happens if you're worthless? You can't get coffee at Starbucks or what happens then?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, I see. Uh-huh. Everyone will reject me. And then if that were true, take it one more step, then is there something negative about that? I mean, it sounds kind of awful, but what would you be afraid of? You mean everyone in the world or everyone who knew you or all human beings?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, you'd be wealthy, though, because you'd be like the most famous celebrity in the world. I'd be very special. You'd appear on talk shows and get tremendous honoraria.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So then we review the list. I might fail my test. and then what's the worst that could happen? Then I might fail my class. Then I'll never have a good job. That would mean I'm a failure, and that would mean that I'm worthless. And if I was worthless, everyone would reject me, and then I'd be miserable forever. And now let's turn this back to... Our expert of experts, Rhonda Barofsky.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Thank you, Jody. And you certainly warm our hearts to write those beautiful words. And it means a lot that we're not getting rich off the podcast, but that's our riches. You're our riches. And we feel especially wealthy today because of you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And what are this individual's self-defeating beliefs?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Is that a self-defeating belief on the list? Yes. It's perfectionism. Oh, perfectionism. Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. If I'm not perfect, I guess, or if I fail, my world will fall apart, something like that? Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, that's a good one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Mm-hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Fear of being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
How about perceived perfectionism, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So we've got five.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I didn't see that in the downward arrow. I see that as something you're reading into it. Oh, really? Yeah, he's not saying he's worthless if he's unhappy. He says he's worthless if he fails.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, you could ask. You can always ask if you have a hypothesis. And when you do, sometimes a person will say, that makes that consistent. And more often they'll say, that doesn't sound quite right. But it's fun to throw those things out to open up the person's brain as much as possible. But that's how you come up with a self-defeating belief. And you came up with one, two, three, four...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
five, six, I think, here, just really, really quickly. Mm-hmm. What are your thoughts, Matt? Does that seem correct?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. Jason, before we move on to another question, can you give us a – and you don't have to do this. I don't want to take advantage. But can you give us a Buddhist perspective on what we've been talking about, these beliefs? Rhonda might also. And Matt might also.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I want to give not only a warm hello to you, Matt, which is always a joy to hang out with you a little bit, but also to introduce with great pride Jason, who's... really kind of the star of our app development. He's been translating TeamCBT into our app using artificial intelligence and making some absolute magic.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, and so if you have the perception that no one is going to love or appreciate me, people are out to bust me, then you'll be kind of reading that into situations.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, I see. Well, I think that is important, and that's what we do want to do. And we've spent an hour on the first question, and we have only nine to go. But these are all great questions, and so we don't need to worry about how many we get through. I think it is nice to have some quality in the way we answer them, that we're giving people something.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then we can, you know, turn this question list into... Two or three podcasts or, you know, so how are we doing on our answer to this question, Jason?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Jill Levitt and I have, that's a great question you asked there. And Jill Levitt and I have gone somewhat in the opposite direction. We used to think of working on a self-defeating belief as kind of an abstract thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
thing you can do and then you've got the daily mood log which is a very practical thing you can do and lately we were of the belief that actually doing a daily mood log at a particular moment that you're upset
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
and talking back to your negative thoughts at that moment and crushing them, you know, being convincing that that's actually the best way to work on a self-defeating belief at one moment in time when you're upset. And you can work on it by talking back to the negative thoughts that you're having at that moment, if that makes sense.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
But Jason's magic is not just from his fantastic programming skills, but from himself, from his incredible background, from your knowledge of Buddhism, of mystical concepts, and your tremendous commitment to being real and to using the app yourself to see if it works well. on you. And you're just such a warm and kindly person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Any comment on that, Jason?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I didn't completely get what you said, but Rhonda is going to summarize it now so I'll understand it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. And that's something you can learn with externalization of voices, too. I think so. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. Do you want to do the achievement one? We can do externalization of voices.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, I'll be the positive thought if you like, but we need some specifics so we know the context.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
OK, yeah. And and you can say, David, you're getting kind of older over the hill and you're getting less less successful. And so you're going to be less worthwhile or something like that. Would that work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, okay. Thank you. Are you done?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. Right. Could I talk to you for a minute, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You know, there's quite a few people who have achieved more than you have.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, you should be ashamed because they're better and more worthwhile than you are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Uncle, you're beating me big time. It's kind of fun, isn't it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I was just thinking maybe we have enough already.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And one of the people for the Ask David wrote eight questions rather than one. And they were all such cool questions. And I just had a hunch that You, Jason, would also have a lot to say about them. And so Jason contributed a wonderful segment for the show notes answering all or most of those eight questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Do you think, Rhoda? And they can read his note in the show notes, the full thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Right. Well, my own thinking here is that we can use dynamic techniques between the presentation and practice really hitting these thoughts out of the park. That's the starting point. And then once we're convinced that he can do that, then he could just practice, you know, talking back to them before the talk. And...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
but to work on them between talks dynamically to really get to enlightenment rather than just chipping away at the negative thoughts. So I would personally suggest using externalization of voices and the feared fantasy technique to attack these thoughts. Great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I'm going to mess this up. People are going to notice something obviously wrong in my presentation that I missed, and I'll look like a fool. And this talk is important. It must go well. Yeah. So who wants to play the role of Hieronymy's positive self?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay. And how about the three of us can be the negative Hieronymy, and we'll attack you with these thoughts and see how you can handle it. Do you want to start us off, Jason?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, good. Okay. Rhonda, would you like to start us off?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You're doing such beautiful, beautiful work.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So did you win large or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay. Jason, would you want to take a turn in this or...?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Sure, I see what you're saying, and that's important. I have a hypothesis that he hasn't really gone into a state of enlightenment on these thoughts. He hasn't used externalization of voices or feared fantasy. So my suggestion would be to use these techniques and get into enlightenment, and then it will be easy for you to use them before you do your talks. But if you're only halfway, you know,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I don't know what it was about them, but there was something about that fellow and his questions. It was very, very awesome. And so we have a lot of cool things to talk about today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
beating these thoughts, then you're going to be very vulnerable just before it. But you have to have had the experience of enlightenment to really have stepped out of the world where these thoughts are intimidating you. That's what I'm thinking. But we could go in an entirely different direction, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Right, right. That's right. Let's try a different order. How about I'll be the negative Rhonda, and you can be the positive Rhonda, and I'll hit you with one of these and see how you can do, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, Rhonda, I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but that was lame what you just said. And he's already outshined you. And people are going to notice there's something obviously wrong when you do this role play. And you're going to miss, you know, hitting it out of the park. And you're going to look like a fool. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but I just wanted to let you know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Great. Who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I thought it was huge, too. How did you get to huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yes, right. Right. Do you want to push it up to a higher level, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, that will move from externalization of voices to feared fantasy. And Jason, Matt, and David will be the audience from hell. This is an imaginary world. This is not assertiveness training. And in this imaginary world, if you think that people are going to be judging you, they really do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
and they actually get right up in your face and say the things that you think other people would be thinking but would never dare to say to you. So you can confront the monster that you've been afraid of and see if the monster has teeth. Are you okay with that, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Let's see. You want to start it off, either Matt or Jason? I can if no one else wants to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You're going to go for it or I should?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, yeah. Could I talk to you for a minute, Rhonda? Sure. Do you remember before your talk today, you were saying that people were going to notice there was something wrong with your presentation and you were thinking that you'd look like a fool. And then you decided that it's OK to make mistakes and that people seem to love you and accept you as human. And that's freeing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That's what you said, right? Right. Yeah, but I heard your talk today, and I noticed a lot of ways you screwed up in the presentation. And I think you did look like a fool, and I judge you as a fool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
No, I think you're uneducable, and I don't really have time to go about teaching you. I'm on a much higher level. Yeah. I want to spend my time with more important people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Do you want to do a role reversal with either Jason or with Matt? Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, I thought that was great, too. I'd love to be in the receiving role of a feared fantasy, and I don't know if you would want to do it, Jason, also. I don't want to suck you into this, that, or the other thing, because we want to get you back on the show as often as possible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
OK, well, I'm glad you raised that question because there's a really fantastic answer to that. It's blow away and everything that this person was was was hoping for. And Jason will now reveal that answer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I love that. That that's cool. Everyone might have their own. little thing. As you use these techniques, find the formula that works for you. I used to tell myself before giving a workshop, say a two-day workshop before it starts,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
often I'm in a bad mood because the audio-video typically doesn't work right, or the audio, and they don't have a technician there to fix it, and I get pissed off. And then I say, and I'm supposed to be Dr. Feelgood, and I'm like, Dr. Feelpissed right now. But then I used to tell myself, well, David, remember that the way you feel just before the talk has nothing to do with how the talk goes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Because I've seen that in the data, and that's very helpful for me. And also I have people evaluate me on a feedback scale every time I do a presentation or a Tuesday group teaching. So I find out what is my rating, and I know what is a C, what's a B, what's an A-, what's an A. And I have them write down what they like the least and what they like the most.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And knowing that I'm going to get that data is very helpful, too, because if there's something that people don't like, it's generally something specific. Not that you suck as a human being, but when you didn't find truth in my question, I felt hurt or something like that. And then you can learn from those specific things. I treated a woman for public speaking anxiety who had...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
She was in a Fortune 500 company, and she had to give some kind of talk, and she was pregnant. And when she got up to give her talk, she passed out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And was very humiliated by that and asked me for some help through the Internet since I'd never met her. But again, she was saying I shouldn't have passed out and this is a terrible and bad thing. that I deserved to feel ashamed of. And she had the fear that, you know, it might happen again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then I guess people had high regard for her regardless and asked her to coach someone in public speaking anxiety in the company. And she asked me, what if this person finds out that I fainted? And I said, well, why don't you tell him and find out what he thinks? And she said, oh, that would be terrible. He'll lose trust in me and blah, blah, blah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I said, well, you don't have to do it, but I would strongly encourage you to do it because it's hiding that creates shame. And once you get it out and open, it might fall into a different perspective. And so she agreed to tell him. And the next week I met with her again just through email exchange. She she was very excited because she told the student of hers. and said, what do you think?
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And he says, this is by far the best thing you ever said. It's so helpful to me to know that someone as polished as you could faint or feel anxious. And what then she started doing in each of her presentations, I said, now you could tell your audiences, too. You know, you don't have to hide it from anybody.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So she started all of her talks as, I just want you folks to know that I often have intense public speaking anxiety, and sometimes I even pass out. And that will probably happen at any moment. But if I do, just splash some cold water on me and slap me around a little bit, and I'll get up and I'll be just fine. And then the audience all laughs.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And she used that in all of her talks from that day on. And then she contacted me a year or two later, and she'd won an award as the top – public speaker and top public speaking teacher among Fortune 500 companies. It was a very prestigious thing, and it just came about by, like what you were saying, Jason, to accept the anxiety rather than fighting it and thinking you've got to make it go away.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Matt, I heard you get very anxious sometimes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, go. Go ahead.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. The attempt to control it and thinking it's some awful thing that you shouldn't be having. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, I'll give first round to you three, and then I'll mention a bunch of techniques for challenging self-defeating beliefs. We're working on a class on self-defeating beliefs for the app, actually. So it's been at the top of the agenda in recent weeks, so it was a great question. But let's let the... The three of you share your expertise, and then I'll chime in.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Self-disclosure.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, yeah. I had to give a talk on anxiety at Harvard once. and on cognitive therapy. And I decided to do it on public speaking anxiety, And I imagined that it would be like a seminar with maybe eight psychiatric residents and a couple of faculty or something like that. And when I got there, I found out it wasn't anything like that at all.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It was a full-day continuing education program with eight speakers. And I was the last speaker of the day. Right. And the other speakers were these hot dog Harvard Medical School researchers talking about their genetic research. It was all basic cellular technology stuff. And I said, oh, my God, I'm in the wrong spot. There were 1,000 psychiatrists in the audience.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I started getting more and more nervous and telling myself, oh, I wish I wasn't here. This is the worst day of my life. And I felt so inferior to those other speakers who were these internationally renowned scientists and scientists. And then I got up, by the time I went up to speak to the podium, my mouth was so dry that I couldn't make any sounds come out of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I was looking out at these 1,000 psychiatrists staring at me. And... And then I just, on the spur of the moment, said, my talk today is on using cognitive therapy for anxiety, and I'm going to be focusing on public speaking anxiety.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I said, but to get started, I'd like to know, have any of you had intense public speaking anxiety where you got so nervous at the start of a talk that you felt that you wouldn't even be able to make any sounds, and your mouth got dry, and you're just really in a state of panic? Hold your hand up if you've ever had that experience. And I swear that 75% of the hands went up like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And they said, well, that's how I'm feeling right now because we've had all these fantastic speakers, and I'm just going to show you some kind of humble cognitive therapy techniques. And they laughed, and they really liked it, and it turned into a really nice experience. But again, it's sharing... where you're at, rather than hiding it in shame.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That hiding in shame is where things get really, really intensified. And it's so much fun to accept your failures and flaws and shortcomings. Once you've accepted it yourself, I think it almost makes you more appealing to have some flaws as a human being, especially if you're treating others with love and presenting yourself as just a flawed human being. Yeah.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I love that, Jason. I do when I write show notes, like, well, I've already written them for this episode, but I use the same strategy. Sometimes I write them after the show because it's not an Ask David, but I tell myself, do an anti-perfectionistic show notes. Just do something well below average.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then send it out to people to check it out and edit it and change it and tell them it's just an unedited off the top of my head thing that isn't very good. And so please fix it up and correct it and delete things and add whatever you want. And then that makes it real easy just to spit out some average junk. which is what the show notes consist of.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then I send them out to everyone to, you know, say the people who are on the show and say, check this out, change anything you want. And then most of the time people say, oh, this is great, just the way it is. It's so interesting. And Rhonda, sometimes you'll find some typos or something and it makes some corrections that I always appreciate. But it's like you can get away with being average.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, my first academic talk was at Oxford in England at a conference, and I was terribly anxious, and I was just certain I would blow it. It was even worse than the Harvard thing. It was a lot worse. And I did blow it. It was even worse than what I had imagined, and I couldn't sleep a wink the night before.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I was just up wandering around the Oxford campus, and owls were hooting at me sarcastically, and the whole world seemed against me. And my talk wasn't until the end of the following day, which was the end of the conference. And I was so nervous, it was just horrible. It was the most humiliating experience I've ever had, I think. But then I worked to getting over that.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And it's just like what you say, Matt. Now I'm teaching tonight. This is my second podcast today. And I'm confronting it all the time. And now the thing that I was so afraid of, I love doing. But I still get a little anxious from time to time. Before this morning's podcast, I was very anxious because I thought this guy was going to challenge me and rip me to shreds.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I don't know how I got that idea. But probably because my computer was failing and I was in a state of high anxiety. But he was just so sweet and kind, and so it was just a wonderful, wonderful experience. He's the guy who wrote F Depression and F Anxiety. And so I thought he'd be real aggressive. But he was just the kindest guy you can imagine.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I loved having you on today, Jason. I'm so grateful. It was just that much richer, our podcast, because of you. Just don't ever do it again. You got it.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, yeah. No problem. It was just I loved the comradeship today and the talk and everything that we did. And we got two of our 10 questions answered. We didn't get to the first of yours, Jason. And so we'll probably, you know, use that same list for the next Ask David, should we, folks?
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, because those eight additional questions, I'll leave them in the show notes, but then I'll say we'll be addressing numbers three and four and five in upcoming podcasts. But, you know, just so nice to hang out and pretend like we're experts or something. You feel like you have something you can give to somebody. Maybe you have a little understanding that they don't, that they will appreciate.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So let us know, Haraname, was this helpful to you? And also, who was our first one? That was Anonymous. Yes. Oh, anonymous. The self-defeating belief was anonymous. Oh, okay. Well, email us if you hear the show. I hope you will. And tell us what you think.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, we've got Rhonda and Jason are up to that. Well, let me just make one comment on what you said. What is a self-defeating belief? I'll attach the list of 23 self-defeating beliefs to the show notes. So if you read the show notes, then you can look and circle the ones that resonate with you. And they're all different, but it's the philosophy that's going on under the surface.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And a lot of self-defeating beliefs are what we call self-esteem equations. It's like I need substance X to be worthwhile, to be happy and worthwhile. That's the belief. And it might be perfection. I have to be perfect to be worthwhile. Or my worth depends on my achievements. Or I need love to be worthwhile. Or I need approval to be worthwhile. And then the theory of it is that that...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
perfectionism or love addiction or approval addiction or whatever is with you all the time, but it only kicks into upsetting you when a particular kind of negative event happens. So that, let's say you have the approval addiction, I need everyone's approval to feel happy and worthwhile. then if you are getting people's approval, you'll feel great. You'll be terrific.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That's my elderly weird rump.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
But we would predict that you would crash when you get disapproval, when people are judging you, when people are criticizing you, then you'd have a lot of negative thoughts flowing through your mind. You tell yourself, oh, my gosh, I'm a loser. I'm no good. These people hate me or whatever you're you're thinking, and then you're going to get sad, anxious, and depressed, and guilty, and ashamed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So that the self-defeating belief tells us what kind of things will trigger your mood slumps, and it will explain the timing to a certain extent of mood slumps. That's the basic theory at any rate. and it has what's called heuristic value.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It makes sense to people and seems helpful to people, which isn't the same as scientific truth, because sometimes when you try to test these things scientifically, they don't pan out. But that's the basic idea and theory of a self-defeating belief. Back to you guys.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That's exactly right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, that's cool. I'll give you some techniques for challenging self-defeating beliefs. One thing to do first, let's say you have this idea, my worthwhileness depends on my achievements. And you brought that up as a potential problem in therapy, that that's maybe a source of your anxiety and a source of your... depression or whatever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And it might have come up from an uncovering technique, like a downward arrow technique. And then how would you change that? That idea of my worthwhileness depends on my accomplishments or my intelligence or my success in life. And the cost-benefit analysis is based on the idea that the term self-defeating beliefs is somewhat misleading, right?
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And Albert Ellis called them irrational beliefs, which is also somewhat misleading because it implies that they're bad or they're going to defeat you or they're kind of irrational. The way I look at a self-defeating belief, it's more like a two-edged sword. It actually has a lot of benefits for you as well as a price to pay.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
The first thing is to do a cost-benefit analysis and put a line down the middle of a piece of paper and put the advantages on the left and the disadvantages on the right. And it wouldn't be the advantages and disadvantages of achievement. That means you didn't get the point.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It's the advantages and disadvantages of basing your happiness and feelings of worthwhileness on your achievements or your accomplishments. And there are a lot of advantages. When you accomplish something great, you'll feel terrific. That's certainly an advantage. And it'll motivate you to work hard and accomplish more and maybe make more money. That's certainly a positive.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then other people may admire you because you're so hardworking and industrious. And because you have high values, you may end up doing more high-quality work, and on and on. And so those are very real advantages. And then in the right-hand column, you can list the disadvantages. When I fail, I'll fall apart.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
When I'm worried about failure, I'll be struggling with anxiety and maybe performance anxiety. And And, you know, I may be afraid to take on new challenges for fear of not performing perfectly or failing. And when I fail, I may view it as some kind of emotional defeat rather than an opportunity to learn from the failure. What can this tell me? What specific errors did I make? And so forth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And so you'll find tremendous numbers of advantages and disadvantages in any self-defeating belief. And then you can weigh them on a 100-point scale, which put two numbers at the bottom of the columns. On my cost-benefit analysis, there's a little graph. You know, kind of like a barbell or a dumbbell or something, a line with two circles at the end.
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419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And you put the, like, if the advantages seem greater, you might put 65, 35 in the circles. If it's a wash, you might put 50, 50 in the circles. And if the disadvantages are greater, you might put, like, 20 in the advantages circle and 80 in the disadvantages circle. And then you only work to change that self-defeating belief if the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Only if it's over the top. Very cool. How about vulnerability training? How would I do that at the workshop, Michael?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Now, you say you're vulnerable and sensitive and easily hurt as a part of who you are. And does that go back to earlier experiences in your life when you were treated poorly in school or something like that and maybe treated in a harsh or unkind way? Yeah.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah. If you're not ashamed yourself, then your former liability becomes a huge plus. And that's hard for people to understand until they've experienced it, which might be one of the benefits of this workshop. And what you said, Jacob, was 200% true, is that intellectual learning is isn't worth anything. You have to experience it at the gut level to see that it's really true.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
This will be the third anniversary, right? Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Now, let me ask you, Michael, does your degree of education Anxiety or in social situations, does that fluctuate and sometimes disappear entirely, but over time gradually creeps back in and then you have to do certain exercises repeatedly to keep it at bay?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah, can we all reject you or criticize you or shame attack you or something?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
You want to do Feared Fantasy?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Well, for Feared Fantasy, you would tell us if we were having negative thoughts about you, but not saying them, just thinking them, what would we be thinking? What are you afraid that Rhonda and David and maybe Jacob would be thinking about you, Michael?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Don't know what I'm talking about. Talking about not in the right place.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
We're just looking for distorted thoughts, Michael. Okay, kind of a fraud for helping out. And any others? These are really good ones.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Okay. And when those things go through your mind, how believable are they? I don't know what I'm... David and Rhonda and Jacob will think I don't know what I'm talking about. They'll think I'm not in the right place. They'll think I'm kind of a fraud for trying to help out at a social anxiety workshop.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Okay. And then are there times when you've been very anxious when they seemed much more true than that? Yes. How true have they seemed in the past?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Okay. Okay. Well, we'll see if we can get them back up to that level. Now, the way that this works for listeners who may not be familiar or if you are familiar – The feared fantasy is a kind of exposure technique, and it's designed when you have fears that you can't confront very easily in reality because if people are having these thoughts about you, they'll deny it.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And so you never get a chance to confront this monster. And so when we do feared fantasy, we're going to go into an Alice in Wonderland nightmare world where there are two unusual rules. First, if you think that Jacob and David and Rhonda are having these thoughts about you, they really are. And they're not at all polite.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
The second weird rule is they get right up in your face and try to humiliate you and say these things to you. And the point of the exercise is not to be cruel, but to give, in this case, you, Michael, or whoever we're doing it with, the chance to transcend some of your deepest fears and discover for the first time that the monster really has no teeth.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And there's a variety of ways to defend against these attacks. But let's just dive right into it. Is that okay, Michael? I'm ready. And who would you like to attack you first with one of these thoughts? We'll say things like, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. You're not in the right place. You're kind of a fraud for trying to help out.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Jacob. Okay. Okay.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah. Okay. Awesome.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
So who do you want to attack you next?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yes. I know that you kind of polished off that, Jacob, but he's a bit of a junior guru. And it's not surprising that you barely squeaked by. But you will not be able to handle what I'm about to tell you because you'll know it's true. And that's because you don't know what you're talking about. And I'm judging you, and I'm judging you real bad. And I will spread the information as well.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Okay, who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Big or small?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Okay, let's do a role reversal. Okay. Now I'll be the positive Michael and you can be the David, the feared fantasy monster.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yes, I am.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah. Well, as a matter of fact, not only do I not know what I'm talking about about this, I don't know what I'm talking about about most things. Once you get to know me, you'll see that there's a lot more holes in my armor than you might have suspected. But when you say I don't know what I'm talking about about social anxiety, can you tell me what you're referring to?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Because I can learn from you and and study up on what I don't know what I'm talking about. I certainly know the experience of social anxiety since I've had it to a crippling degree ever since I was a little boy. So what is the part where I don't know what I'm talking about?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Well, I'm glad Jacob's going to be there because he's a pretty darn good teacher. But I was actually teaching this class the last two years and got rave reviews. And so even though I don't know how to teach – I'm blessed because the people who come to the workshop seem to have such low standards. They think I'm really helpful to them.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And so I accept that and I'm really glad to have that opportunity.
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Okay, why?
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432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah, and the two strategies I was using there are one, the acceptance paradox. That's my best fall to deal. That's one of my strongest helpful things for me. And then the second is be specific because shame and self-criticism can only sting when it's on that abstract level. And when you come down to be specific, well, what's something specific that I don't know about social anxiety?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
I mean, there's so many things I don't know about it. What are you referring to? Is it the genetics, the membrane transport and certain neurons in the brain? What really is the part that I don't know about? Because there's so many parts I don't know about. Yeah. And for me, those two things are kind of a path to enlightenment. And I think Jill Levitt feels the same way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
She says that be specific can actually be a kind of – philosophy of life, really. And I feel that. And those things have been helpful to me, too, because I've struggled, as you know, both know, with so many forms of severe, crippling social anxiety. And also, social anxiety is the thing, I think, on this show that we get by far the strongest response to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
It seems like there's so many people watching right now who have strong social anxiety. And if we're talking to you and I am talking to you, I'm just bullshitting right now, but this workshop is for you and really check it out. Take a chance because these are two days that can change your life in ways that will be
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
So richly rewarding on so many levels to help you start connecting with people in a more loving and, as Jacob's been saying, a really fun way to transform your view and experience of other people from... dangerous dungeon to joyous playground with loving, open-hearted people. It's one of the greatest experiences a person can have to make that transformation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And I can't imagine two more beautiful teachers than Jacob and Michael, and a third, Rhonda, who also brings so much
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Well, tell us about your workshop. I know the last two were smash hits. I also think that doing something that's inexpensive or free for the community is something that I always like to support and comes from the heart, comes from the right place. And I think that even leads to the success. But tell us what... What should we expect if we're going to attend this workshop?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah, yeah. So we'll finish it off with the final role reversal. But the fact is, Michael, and you better admit this, because you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. And I'm an expert. I'm a big time expert.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
It's too easy now. Okay. You're up to bat, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
There's one thought left. You're not in the right place.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Let's hit Rhonda. Let's see how she handles it. Maybe we can make Rhonda anxious.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And this is just one of a large number of techniques you'll be learning in this two-day workshop. But the idea here is very simple, just to summarize, because sometimes these techniques seem sophisticated and people say, well, what's going on? What is this all about?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
But what it's all about is that you, Michael, were kind enough to share with us three thoughts that have sometimes created tremendous anxiety for you in social situations, I'd say. I don't know what I'm talking about. People will think I don't know what I'm talking about. They'll think I'm not in the right place.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
They'll think I'm kind of a fraud for trying to help out in the social anxiety workshop, but I myself have been afflicted with social anxiety since I was a child. And if you're just thinking about those things on your own, think, oh, this is what people are thinking about me, that's not going to do you much good. And then you can ask people, are you thinking this about me?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And they'll say, oh, no, I don't think that about you. But that won't do you much good either because you'll think, oh, they're just telling me what I want to hear. You know, they won't be honest.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
But with this technique, you can really kind of hit the ball out of the park and see that if there was a universe, an alternative universe, where people really have these negative thoughts about you and got up in your face and said them, you could easily – handle that, you know, to see that the absurdity is not with the one who's being criticized, but with these critics.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Should we come with our teenagers? Is it just for teenagers or for teens and adults? What's the age range? And what will happen in these two days? It sounds scary.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
But as you had said earlier, and so wisely, Jacob, experiencing is 100% and book learning is about 0% value. And so it's doing these kinds of exercises in a workshop and beginning suddenly to experience yourself and others in a radically different way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And that's what's always been viewed as a kind of miracle, not a miracle in the sense that you're going to float in the air, but you'll feel like you're floating in the air.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
toward the end of the workshop, because a lot of your burdens will be lifted and you'll feel lighter at the gut level and feeling like you have what it takes to get close to people and to develop connections, both superficial and then deeper, more vulnerable and meaningful connections.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
You've done a lot of work in this area yourself, Jacob, and have probably experienced the terror at first of going outside of your orbit where you're comfortable. And I know you've done a lot of crazy and wild and fantastic things in your life. And because of your love for this problem is one of the reasons you put on this fantastic costume. two-day workshop every year.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
But have you had to pay a price to become outgoing and to overcome your fears and insecurities, Jacob?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
How cool is that? And wasn't I the one who told you 10 years ago, Jacob, that all your effort learning Norwegian would one day pay off?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
That's a beautiful story. That is so great, Jacob. What a heartwarming thing. I have maybe one last question for you. I remember last couple of years when people register, they have to give something like $12 or something, $20 or something to a client. foundation of your choice. Is that still a part of the registration process? And if so, tell us how that works.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah. And how much will it be worth to them at the end of the conference?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
How about a millionth?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah, worth of joy and happiness and intimacy and connection and getting out of prison, the prison that we create with all of our negative thoughts and self-doubts and belief that we're not good enough. But what, Jacob, what if we discover that we're not good enough? What then?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah, that's right. But you'll get these things at the gut level. You'll understand them, not just intellectually, but emotionally, and see what that little joke actually means. It's a very profound spiritual, really, concept, philosophical and spiritual and experiential concept. So the program, to spell it out, and we'll have the links and the show notes for you,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
But if you want to just go and register now, which I strongly recommend in case they get sold out, this is the early point. So you have a chance to get seating. It's findinghumanslessscary.com. And you can register there, and all you have to do is make a $20 donation to the foundation of your choice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
I presume these are tax-free foundations, so you can probably even get a tax write-off and bring your hourly charge. Yeah, you can save $6. Yeah, down to about 60 cents an hour for some world class, not just psychotherapy, but experiential exercises, both in the auditorium and out with people out on the streets, interacting with real people and discovering things.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
at the gut level, that humans really are less scary. And I can't imagine two more brilliant psychiatrists and loving, practical, helpful, committed people than Michael Luau and Jacob Towery. So we are so grateful to have you two guys here on the surface of the earth where so much war and hatred is spreading.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
It seems so fast to have this kind of island of joy and tears and laughter and warmth and learning and growth. And that's going to be March 29th and 30th. That's a Saturday and Sunday from 9.30 a.m. to 5.30 p.m. And this will be two days that will change your life. And you'll be reborn in a way because you'll suddenly see and experience a world that you didn't know existed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Thank you for reminding everyone that David did, in fact, hit his head on a nail. Okay. Okay. David, you hit your head on a nail. Well, you don't have to rub it in, Rhonda. I may be old.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah. And seeing others less scary also has to do with the fact that when you're seeing others as different and scary, that also is what leads to war. Yes. It's not just the labeling of others, but to seeing them as dangerous and different. Exactly. Exactly. And not as humans, not humans. someone to be loved and respected.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
But that'll be a podcast for another day because it's another huge and incredibly important problem. And we're going to leave the last words here, which are going to be mind-blowing and extraordinarily important, to Michael.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Okay. Well said. Yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Thank you all for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed the podcast today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Let me see if I got that right so far because I'm making a list and checking it twice. You want to find out it's naughty and nice. It's March 29th to 30. It will be from 930 to 530 on each of those weekend days. I presume the location will again be kept secret except for those who register.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah. If I'm living like overseas, can I attend virtually?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Okay. Really? 14 through 135 years old. And it'll be two all-day affairs. And the idea is not just to learn but to experience and practice new ways of relating to people. So if you're socially shy or anxious, this is the place to be on March 29th and 30th, 2025, I presume. Yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And if I go there, I'm going to learn how to talk to new people, how to start a conversation, how to continue a conversation. I'm going to learn how to become less self-conscious. I'm going to learn how to flirt. And I'm going to learn something called rejection practice and vulnerability training. And I think I might have missed one or two.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Oh, okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Yeah, you've talked about that. When people are anxious, they're always thinking, you know, I'm not good enough and I'm not attractive enough and I'm not interesting or smart or have high enough social status. It's all focused on me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Hello, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
But there's a mirror image of that that's in your mind if you're shy, and that's that you're not only writing yourself off as a loser, you're writing other people off as losers too because you're seeing other people as dangerous and mean-spirited and judgmental and dangerous and aggressive. Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And the idea in these two days is to transform that worldview at the gut level so you begin to experience people in a more loving way, a fun way, that life can be fun. Dating and getting to know people can be a fun experience. It doesn't have to be like walking through a minefield and waiting to get blown out of the water at any point. at any moment. How do you bring about these changes?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
And is there a motivational component to it as well as the mindset, the cognitive component?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Well, tell me more. I'm kind of a naive listener, and I don't understand this vulnerability consent thing. What does that mean? Should I just walk up to somebody and say, would you prefer a handshake or a hug?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Well, how do you use this consent thing? And what is rejection practice?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Hold on. Hold on. So if I go to this workshop, will there be an exercise for me to practice this consent question? Yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
I feel scared because I might make a fool of myself or get rejected at the workshop.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Awesome. Awesome. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
There are training programs you can sign up for. And in all fairness, I would say that my view of licensed mental health professionals is the same as what you've described, Rhonda. It consists of cults. with gurus who were the cult leaders. We call them the great people in the history of psychiatry and psychology.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But I've mentioned on many occasions I had the honor of sitting next to Albert Ellis a few times at conferences generally in his honor. And because I admired him, they would often seat me next to him. And he kind of liked me because he was a little narcissistic himself. And he knew I liked him, so he liked me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But he used to tell me about all the great people in the history of psychiatry and psychology. And he knew most of them in the 20th century because he was really doing his thing in the 1950s. And he said, David, you know, they're all a bunch of charlatans and frauds and psychos and narcissistic psychopaths who lie and take advantage. And their followers believe things just like cult followers.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And when I first heard him say that, I was pretty darn shocked. And then I thought of the famous ones that I knew personally. And I thought, my gosh, this is really true. And that's why I've personally been trying to develop a science-based, data-driven science of psychotherapy that...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And certainly a coach is free to use the tools we've developed, testing people at the start and end of every session, using the evaluation of therapies session scale to see what your empathy score is, see if you're getting changes in the patient's negative feelings. I think the whole field of mental health overall needs a radical change.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
change and getting away from these semi-religious cults where you've got your Adlerians and your ACT people and your EMDR, eye-jiggling people. Sorry if that insulted someone, but it was intentionally passive-aggressive. You're eye tapping people. Let's see, where do I tap? Oh, is it right here on my right eyebrow and my OCD will disappear?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, I'm cured.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And, you know, there's all this junk going on right now. And I think the whole field needs, I don't know quite how it's going to happen, but I think it does have to happen. And we've got plenty of People who want to charge a lot, well, certainly there are no psychologists or psychiatrists like that, Rhonda, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I thought I'd start off today with reading a very beautiful endorsement that came to you via the YouTube channel that now we're posting the podcast with video as well as audio. And someone watched the YouTube video and said, Hey, Dr. David Burns, I'm a reader of Feeling Good and Feeling Great in Korea. You may have heard expressions of gratitude many times, and it might not be as impactful to you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
There are a lot of people that charge a lot of money, especially in the Bay Area, where there are a lot of high-income humans living. I'm just not 100%. understanding what the difference is between coaching and therapists. Because Angela, you've discussed, and David has said too, you've got through a lot of training. I've seen you at trainings and you're putting on trainings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I don't understand the difference in why you're calling yourself a coach and why you're not calling yourself a therapist. Because clearly You've been well-trained as a Team CBT therapist, and you have provided therapy to people. So to me, you're a therapist. I don't know why I would even call you a coach.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
A therapist and a damn good one and a teacher and a damn good one. Let's get on to the positives of this show. We didn't get you folks on here to rake you with the cold. Well, I mean, that is positive. To sing your... sing your praises and find out the cool things that you're doing and how other people can hook up and learn from you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Tell me more. I like you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Coaching is regulated?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
However, I want you to know that you have changed my life and I'm profoundly grateful beyond words. I wish you happiness and good health.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. And we have to get to Lorna, who I think is on the program to be more than a decorative object. And so, but I just wanted to say, I think there's some, a couple of legal differences. I think that you have to be a licensed mental health professional to do diagnosis and And maybe some can and others cannot.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And then also, I think that in terms of dealing with someone who has suicidal urges or fantasies or concerns, that I think coaches are supposedly not supposed to be dealing with those patients. Are there any other... Psychosis...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind and thoughtful statements. And I know that you do too, Rhonda. Absolutely. Because we were reaching out in so many ways in the hopes of touching folks. And when you tell us you have received something positive, it really means a great deal to me and I know to you, Rhonda, also. Definitely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Thank you so much for explaining that. I'm really glad you were able to delineate that. And Lorna, you're in Angela's Masterclass and Mentoring Program. What's that like for you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Well, let's say that I want to learn more about coaching and maybe become a coach. What will I learn in your masterclass, Angela? How long does it last and how many students are there in the classes and what kinds of things happen?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Sounds fantastic.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Sounds just like Team CBT to me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
We've got two other really neat people today, two of my favorites who are reaching out and talking about a topic that I think is really, really interesting and I hope will be interesting to you folks as well. And it's a little bit on the controversial side, which makes it even more fun to talk about. But What is coaching?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
No, I don't even remember the question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, I never found seeing patients to be tiring or exhausting. For me, 100% of the time is the more patients I saw on a day, the higher I got. And the only thing that ever brought me down was if I thought I said something that hurt someone's feelings or they left the session feeling really bad. That was horrible for me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
It was like getting shot in the stomach by a bowling ball or a cannon or something like that. And but but, you know, it's it is not true that seeing working with people who are depressed could be depressing. They cannot possibly depress you because it goes back to Epictetus. The only thing that can make you happy or unhappy are your own thoughts about what happens.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
What you're interacting with, the events don't cause our feelings. It's our interpretation. It's what we're telling ourselves, the narrative about those events. And if I saw somebody who says, gosh, Dr. Burns, I've been to 12 therapists and no one's ever been able to help me and I've been super severe and I haven't had one minute of happiness in my life, I feel euphoric.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Because I think, oh, my God, do I have a lot to give this person? This is going to be a tremendous positive experience. I get all kind of excited because that's my interpretation of that situation. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
As the Buddha said so many hundreds and thousands of years ago, there's no such thing as effing compassion fatigue. It's just a farce. You know, compassion is not fatiguing. The only thing that can fatigue you is your own distorted thoughts. But yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Get hooked on our own narcissism.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That used to happen to me an awful lot and still happens to me on occasion. You, you get thinking, Oh man, I can give this person something that nobody else can. And they're, they're going to be so impressed with me when I do these amazing things. And then boy, you're heading for trouble when you get sucked into that type of, into that type of format. Um, for, for sure. Um,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Angela, you also have this really incredible extensive knowledge in tech. And I know you've done incredible work gathering all of the techniques that David has put together and made a beautiful chart for everyone. And I know I've called on you for tech support and you put together the toolkit. And when it became an electronic, how did you move from tech to
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
This is a new thing that I think is catching on in a pretty significant and big way. You folks can confirm whether or not that's valid, but that's my thought. And we want to find out what is a coach? How does a coach compare with a psychologist? Or how does coaching compare with psychotherapy? Is it a good thing or is it a terrible thing like most psychotherapy? No, I didn't mean to say that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
coaching and how do you incorporate them together?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I used to get a lot of, well, still do, I suppose, but I used to get a lot of attorneys as clients, and they really loved what I... In those days, we were calling it CBT when I was in private practice. Now, it's a little different because it's evolved so much, but...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
to become team, but they love that logical aspect, the analytic aspect of CBT and seeing that their thoughts were distorted and they could change those distorted thoughts and change the way they, they feel. So I, I especially enjoyed working with attorneys for that reason.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, wow. That's so sad. I'm sorry to hear that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That's a beautiful story. I love that story. I don't think you told that the last time you were here. Yeah. Yeah. That's neat.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I'd like to hear from Angela and from Lorna, maybe give Lorna a first shot, hear more about you and you're doing coaching in Australia. Is that correct? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And you're in our Tuesday training group at Stanford every week.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. And and so if if if I'm and I guess a coach can help someone anywhere in the world. There's nothing about crossing state lines like we have in the United States. That's kind of an advantage of being a coach. But if I'm in Australia, you know. Where are you located? Do you see people in person? Do you do all virtual work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But let's hear what these experts have to say. I remember when I was in college, my freshman year, we had a fellow in our class who was blind. David Agnew, I think was his name, a really nice guy and really brilliant guy. And I think he had the idea of becoming a lay psychoanalyst, not doing the route of those days you had to go through medical school first and whatever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And if I am an Australian struggling, you know, what kind of problems would you like people to bring to you? Would it be depression, anxiety, relationship problems? What can you do for your fellow Australians?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
You have a lifestyle retreat. Do you sponsor this yourself? Do you make this happen?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, it's pretty exciting. Yeah. So if I was in Australia and I want to see, well, should I go to this Lorna person for help or wherever, I guess, you know, can you give me a, you know, 25 words or less sales pitch or something? Like what would I hope to experience by coming and working with you, Lorna? Yeah. And I'll ask you the same question, Angela.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That's what I'm always trying to do, make people their own shrinks so they won't need to come to me anymore. Exactly. Are you using the brief mood survey at the start and end of sessions?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Do you see changes from the start to the end of the session?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So if I'm in Australia or elsewhere in the world, feeling down and depressed or anxious and worried and panicky or angry or all of the above, you're my person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, do you? I didn't know that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
We'll give us both of you your contact number so people will know where to go if they want some coaching, Lorna. And Angela, if they want coaching or training, tell us. You're in Canada, so occasionally I refer Canadian people to you. I'm always happy to have you available. And Mike Christensen, too, down, you know, I guess he's north of Vancouver. But tell us a little more of what your niche is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And I think you also have a bit of a religious focus integrated into your psychotherapy or coaching, which is not important to some people and is very important to others. Tell us a little bit about that as you know. Or anything you want, really. Sure. Turn us on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So that's... I'm going to write that down now. TeamCBT, is that one word?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
you know, a lot of requirements to be a psychoanalyst. And, you know, it was all very important and very controlled. And I remember thinking, gosh, maybe that would be a good idea, have more lay people as psychoanalysts. And so it might be the case here, too, that maybe coaching can bring us something that people with extensive knowledge
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
dot ca like ca yeah uh-huh effective compassion oh is that a slash after ca for canada yes yes and uh effective uh compassion is that one word or two words effective compassion all all one no space yeah
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, that's beautiful, Angela. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
All righty. Back to you, Rhonda, tell us where we're at and there's other things we need to cover today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Well, I think Angela and Lorna, you've done a really beautiful job of explaining the differences between coaching and therapy. And Angela, you've prided so much service to the entire team CBT community with everything that you've done. I'm very appreciative of the times that I have worked with you and you've coached and trained me. you have found a response to everything that I'm confused about.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And, and I've, I've learned a lot from listening to you. I don't know. I really appreciate it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. And do you see people in person or all virtual?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And then on the individual coaching level, what's your cup of tea there? And I guess you're not limited to Canada there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Why do you have a waiting list? Is that because you're slow or because you're popular?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That's great. That's neat that you have a waiting list. I love hearing that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, that's great to hear. Well, anything else that anyone wants to say here? This is your shot. We have, you know, right at the moment, it's live. We told you that, but there's 700,000 people listening at this moment. not. But there will be a lot of people, you know, thousands of people hearing this. So any other words that you want to say or ideas that you want to share?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
but perhaps somewhat limiting training might not, but we'll find out. We'll dive in and see what's under the surface with regard to coaching.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I think that what you're doing is great. And I think you're taking, myself, a very ethical approach to what you're doing. And, you know, what you said, Rhonda, that, you know, there are
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
shysters in the world it seems to me like our world is getting more and more shysterish and sadly I don't think they're limited to co-chain I think we've got plenty of people in our own ranks of psychiatry and psychology who are nothing I'm proud of but I shouldn't throw stones or rocks at others but I think there's a lot of poor training in all areas of mental health.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And I'm not trying to put everybody down, but what I'm trying in my own way to do is to lift the standards up, getting people using measurement, find out how are your patients feeling right now at the start and end of your session so you can see instantly if you're being effective and how do they rate you on warmth and empathy and helpfulness and things of that nature. Yeah, absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I think every mental health professional should be doing that. And sadly, very, very few are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So Angela, what's a coach?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That's so inspiring, Angela. I love that you said that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And then one other thing that you guys might, you ladies, you wonderful people, whatever is the correct thing, that this is coming out on September 16th, and our Feeling Great app is available as of today, although it's officially going to be released on August 8th, the start of the intensive run.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Coincidentally, that's when our press release is coming out, and we're going to have an article in this article journal called Technical Crunch. It was supposed to be a real top-level thing, if you can get in it, when you have an app or something technical to announce. So apparently they accepted our press release, so we'll be interviewed for that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But one thing we're trying to explore, and coaches might have an interest in this, is I think on some level, everybody is hoping for effectiveness in our work. And what that means is a drop in those scores on the depression test, the anxiety test, the anger test, the relationship conflict improvement, and things like that. And we're seeing some pretty spectacular results in people who use the app.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
In fact, dramatic changes in as little as an hour. The first time people sit down with the app now, we're seeing like 50% reduction in seven negative emotions. And if coaches wanted to explore combining your coaching with the app, it might be, you know, one plus one equals two or one plus one equals three. Right. because many people need more than an app, need a human connection.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I know when I'm having a technical problem, I really would like a real person on the other end of the line helping me figure out how to get my website fixed or whatever. And I think it's the same with our emotions. And I think the The app can be a tremendous resource for the general public who are hurting and for therapists and coaches who are trying to speed people out of misery and into joy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So if you have any experiences like that, make sure you pass them on to me so we can understand more about if there's a place for the app. the app to partner up with coaches and, and therapists in order to try to transform the face of mental health and start providing much faster relief to people than was previously thought possible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, that's right. Yeah, I'm not sure why all that problem is that people aren't allowed to use it. If they're not from the U.S., I think there are all these regulations and things that someone in our company is looking into. It'll get figured out eventually.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
You know, another thing I want to add to piggyback about how people can find you Angela and Lorna and everyone else that you're, you're training to be a coach or therapist is that if I'm not sure if, you know, we made the announcement earlier that myself and a few other team therapists are starting a nonprofit, a professional organization for team CBT therapists called team CBT international.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And it's really geared toward education and, and educating therapists locally and providing seed money to, to therapists who want to be trainers. And, you know, it's just like any other profession. We need a nonprofit professional organization of us, like the Association of Women Psychiatrists. And this will be a professional organization.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
We're keeping the fees very low, especially in the first few years. And then we will be publishing the directory of our membership. You can join as a coach or a therapist, whatever. Doesn't matter. It'll be a worldwide directory of all team CBT therapists.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. Let you know more about it as it goes forward.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Okay. Well, thank you so much. It's been a great podcast as usual, and we really appreciate your taking the time out of your busy schedules to join us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Good luck with what you're doing and thanks for hitching your, our star, our wagon to your star or your wagon to our star for working together. Cause I just love both of you and have so much tremendous regard for you as a really beautiful human beings, but also skillful, compassionate therapists. And I applaud you both. Absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Thank you for listening. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
When you say some therapists are moving toward coaching, you mean they're trying to become coaches or they're moving to the more positive model of therapy that we've been developing?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Hi, David. Welcome to our listeners around the world, around the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast and it's episode 414. We have two very special guests today, Angela Poach and Lorna Bird, whom I'll introduce in a second.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Right. Well, that's super important because, you know, my research and my whole career has been kind of focused around the fact that doing your psychotherapy homework is going to make all the difference between success or failure in therapy, whether you call it therapy or coaching or whatever. So I'm certainly sympathetic to that approach. not wanting to you know focus on on analyzing the past.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I've had a lot of patients, not a lot, but from time to time, people who said, I really want you to help me analyze my past so I can find out why I'm like the way I am. Why do I procrastinate? Why am I so depressed? Why am I so anxious? What kind of childhood experiences cause this? And then I've always told them, you know, I'm not much of an expert in causes. All I know about is cures.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But I do have a rule that I will be willing to explore your past with you, but only after you're cured. And so if after you've found joy and happiness, you still want to explore your past, you just let me know and we'll talk about it to your heart's content. But I never had one person take me up on that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. You know, I do something called causal modeling when I analyze app data. And it's a very precise form of statistics. You have to have careful measurements and then you build mathematical models and you can test your hypotheses about causes. And the model will tell you two things. First of all, whether or not your model even makes sense from a statistical point of view.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And I would say 90% of the time, the computer tells you your model doesn't make sense, your thinking sucks. And there's no point in interpreting the results of this analysis because the very analysis itself is misguided. And then sometimes it'll tell you, yes, this model does fit the data. That doesn't mean it's a true model, but it is consistent with your data.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And then it tells you whether your hypotheses are valid or invalid or kind of fence sitters that can't be decided. And most of the time, the computer shows you that your causal hypothesis of what's causing depression, what causes change in people who use the app, that these beliefs that we have about things simply aren't correct.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And it happens rapidly, and the computer can dispute as many as 20 theories per hour very easily. And I think I've told this story before, but I gave a great workshop. The workshop was really well received. And I know you've been to a lot of my workshops, Angela, going back a long time. And I can picture you right now being in my workshops up near the front row and saying, I wonder who she is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I just want to say that the topic for today is coaching in addition to counseling. And so, hi, Angela.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Borowski, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
She seems to be in a lot of my workshops and she must be a really neat person. I found out you were. But this fellow drove me to the airport and he said he was a psychiatrist and he loved the workshop. But he said, it just seems to me you're messing out on an important thing, which is you don't seem to address the causes of depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And what I felt like telling him, and he was such a nice guy, I didn't exactly challenge him. But, you know, the cause of depression and anxiety, the causes are not yet known to science, right? And so the idea that you can rummage through your past and discover the cause of something is kind of bizarre or bizarre. Well, I don't want to say childish because that would be controversial.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
You would never be controversial. Not very bright because that would be insulting. So I won't say those things, but I am thinking those things. And, you know, why don't we have some humility and work with what we've got? And because we can help people change their lives. But, you know, claiming we know the causes of things, it strikes me as arrogant and not very critical thinking in my view.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
major in college was the philosophy of science. And we kind of learned how to think about things more critically and from a scientific perspective. So I think, you know, your idea there, Angela, is certainly consistent with my thinking.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, I want to just say a little bit that Angela is a level four team certified specialist, and she also provides tech support for David's website. So she's an incredibly balanced human being. And Lorna Bird is a counselor in Australia. And Lorna is working with Angela in her mentoring group. Maybe you could tell us more about that as we keep going. Sure. Yeah. And you too. Hello, David.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So can I jump in with an opposite view?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
No, no. Back to you, Angela.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So I know, Angela, you are very talented. You're well-trained. Like David said, you've gone to a million trainings. I've been on the receiving end of your teachings. I think you have so much insight. And you've worked really hard to be a really great therapist and trainer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And people in my Wednesday group say every once in a while, I've taken a class with Angela Poach and always really welcome their comments. And so when you say you're a coach and you're coaching clients, I know that they're in really great hands. you talk about coaching as a non-regulated profession. I've also heard people say, Oh, I went, I was an alcoholic or a substance abuser.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And now I'm going to coach people and I'm going to charge them $200 an hour. And I've heard people say, Oh yeah, I went through a divorce. It was really high conflict. I learned so much from it. Now I'm going to coach people how to get through their divorce. And I'm going to charge a ton of money for that. And yeah,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I have difficulty with people because they want to coach through their personal experience instead of through training and knowledge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And so that's my struggle when I hear the word coach. Like, what is someone getting? I know when someone is getting... hopefully a licensed mental health professional, that they've gone through some ethics, that they know about boundaries, that they have some basic level of training and education.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I also have to say, I don't think all therapists, especially team CBT therapists, are getting bogged down in unanswerable questions like what has caused their depression, but are really focused on the here and now because that's part of
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
cognitive behavioral therapy and team therapy in particular so i don't want to throw water on this fire and this really exciting topic but there's to me there's another side of it absolutely i think that's a really important point and something that i you know i try to deal with at length when i'm teaching coaching for sure because um
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I'm sorry, I think you forgot to correctly name it. Did you mean to say sleazy gurus?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. The profound, profound loneliness. Uh, yeah. The, uh, let me, uh, I kind of hate to push this and move rapidly, but I'll try that anyway. Suppose we work together really successfully, and at the end of our session you said, wow, that really knocked my socks off. What would happen? What would you be hoping for?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Right. So would that involve no longer believing these messages so strongly and no longer believing these negative feelings so strongly?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Which are the ones that you might not want to let go of?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, I love that. Let me write that down here. In fact, let's do this with all of your feelings. The frustration, you say it's motivated me to work on myself. Yes. Yeah, and also... motivated me to work. Another good thing about frustration is that it shows you haven't given up. Right? Yep. Is that a good thing?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, haven't given up. Frustration was the hardest one for me to figure out what was good about it when I first developed positive reframing. And the second hardest one was hopelessness. What are some good things about your anxiety?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. I have that same thought, you know, every day. It's like a go-to thought. Like, I have to do something like... I had to check something in our bank balance, something like some financial thing. My wife takes care of things, and then my automatic thought, well, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to do this. And it seems very real.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I might put it off for a day or two. And any other good things about anxiety? It kind of motivates you to face your fears.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
session into 45 minutes rather than the two hours I usually spend, and it was just so rewarding and emotional, and it was just fantastic. And then someone on our team, our Feeling Great app team, did an analysis of it, and that will be included in the show notes as well. But instead of talking about it, we should probably dive in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Yeah. Is that important?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Is that real? That's very real. Is that important or is that powerful?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, awesome. And then how about what's really beautiful and awesome about your sadness? In fact, there's three questions we can ask about each negative feeling. Why is this appropriate? How does it help me? And what does it show about my core values that's positive and awesome?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Let me write that down. Maybe I can send you the list later. I don't know if you're writing any of these down. I'm not. It's highly desirable to write them down. If you have a piece of paper there, care about others, because this is so important, the things that you're saying here. Yeah, what else does the sadness show about you that's positive and awesome? How does it help you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, that you have high standards, high expectations. Is that real? That's very real. Is that powerful?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Is that important?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
What else does your sadness show about you that's... How does that help you? What are some awesome things about it, or why is it appropriate?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, the sadness is the source of your compassion.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, that's really neat. How about guilt and shame?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, well, as long as you found some for guilt, that's good enough. The inadequacy is really huge. What are some really awesome things about feeling inadequate?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Honest about areas to improve. And what are some other awesome things about inadequacy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, because you see, although you feel ugly, the other people will be perceiving you as this good-looking, hunky, successful, intimidating, smart guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then that could make them be hard to be with you because they would feel inadequate. And that your humility adds to your attractiveness. Do you see that? Yeah, that makes sense.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That there's a beautiful warmth about you, which is pretty awesome. What's really great about your loneliness?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
But let me ask you, what were you thinking there when we transitioned from the podcast into the live work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, like right now. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's so cool. I love it. What's great about embarrassment and humiliation?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Is that important?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of lacking in the world these days, too, sometimes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
How about hopelessness? You're 85% hopeless. What could possibly be good about that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's huge. What are some other cool things about hopelessness?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay, well, this was the second hardest for me, and it took me like a month or two, and I used to have these Sunday hikes. I'm starting them up again. I can't go as far because I've developed low back pain when I walk, so I'm trying to figure out some way to get over that. Maybe I need to come to you for some back-strengthening exercises.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
But we used to go six, eight miles, and I was up on this thing called Roos Ridge, and this woman was telling me that she was hopeless. I think she thought she wasn't, like, smart enough, and she's a really good-looking woman, but she thinks she's not very smart, and she's socially anxious, and she's afraid she'll have a date, and her mind will go blank, and then the fellow won't like her.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I was asking her, well, what's great about hopelessness, and suddenly kind of popped into my mind. And the things, one of them was, does it show that you're a critical thinker? In other words, you're looking at a lot of failures in achieving what you want. Yeah. Is that important?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And also, does it protect you from disappointment?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, yeah, and that's important. And then we're almost done with this, and then we'll get on to what you were asking for. But how frustrated would you want to feel? You say that's helped you in your, well, or like what are, again, do we write down frustration first? Oh, yeah, we've already done frustration. And then so we're down to angry at yourself. What's good about being angry with yourself?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Now let's see how many positives we've got here. Two, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, and then eleven, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. And we've got 16 positives for all of these negative feelings. And we could add to this list, but we've got a pretty big list right now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And are these things we've listed like embarrassment helps me function in socially desirable ways and hopelessness protects me from disappointment and loneliness has allowed me to develop independence and it has also motivated me to seek out the community of other people and learn new things and the frustrations motivated me to work hard and shows I haven't given up and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
All these advantages, are they real?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Are they powerful?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Are they important?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So then it would seem like our goal today might not be to get rid of them, press a magic button, have them all disappear because all these positives would disappear. Right. But would there be a lower level of these emotions that might preserve all those positives and allow you to feel less anxious and depressed and so forth?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
The anxiety is 95. If we had a goal for that today, how much anxiety would you want?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
20, okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Your sadness is 90. How sad would you like to be today?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, in fact, I know what you mean. Sometimes there's a healthy kind of sadness, and then there's an unhealthy kind of depression. But I sometimes think of sadness as celebration, to really be able to care and to connect with the suffering of other people, to be aware of it. It's the greatest gift of all to my way of thinking. The guilt is 85 to 90. How guilty would you like to be feeling?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
15, great. And then how inadequate? That's 90. What would be a really optimal level of inadequacy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. How lonely? That was 85.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And how frustrated? That was 70.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And angry at myself. That was 75.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Awesome. And so now we just did, first I did empathy. I'm going through the testing we did, empathy we did, paradoxical agenda setting we did, and now we're to methods. Which of these four thoughts would you like to tackle first? I won't be successful. I won't live the life I want to live. I won't find love. I'm not attractive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. And then let's see how much you believe each of these when you're upset. How much do you believe I'm not attractive?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And then how much do I believe I won't find love?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
90%. And how much do you believe I won't live the life I want to live?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And then how much do I believe I won't be successful?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Is this the first, you know, is all or nothing thinking, looking at things in black and white. Would this be an example of all or nothing thinking?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And you're right on that. And imagine I'm like in fourth grade and you want to explain it to me why that is a distortion.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Awesome. Well, let's go ahead and dive right in. We hope you enjoy it. And then at the end, we'll have a follow-up. How is Joshua doing a week or however long later? We'll do a little brief relapse prevention training. So you're in, I think, for quite a treat. I love my work working with people because when you impact another person, you're impacting yourself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And then why is that unrealistic?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. And why is that not correct? Why is that erroneous?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Right. And then why is that thought unfair? Not only distorted, but unfair.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yes, uh-huh. And why is an unrealistic standard unfair?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, but what's the impact of believing something that's untrue? Um...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Well, that's okay. That's fine. And we could go through all ten dispersions, but we probably have enough ammunition here already. Now, we could start out with one of two techniques, the externalization of voices, which is a very aggressive technique.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Or the double standard technique, which is a little gentler technique, and then we could start with that and then go into externalization of voices for crunch time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Let's do that. Okay. Let's imagine that I am a friend of yours. We'll do the double standard technique in a role play format.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And give me a name, not a current friend, but just say someone, you know, who's not one of your real friends, but this would be a friend.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Corey, I'm Corey. And let's say that I look like you. I have all of your strengths. I have all of your weaknesses. I grew up in a similar home as you. In fact, I'm like a clone of yours or a long-lost identical twin. And I want to see how you would talk to me. So I have all your strengths. I have all your weaknesses. I got all the grades you got in school. I dropped out of school. I went back.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I've got this podcast that I'm doing, but I'm a dear friend and a different person. Could I talk to you for a minute, Joshua?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You know, I have this problem. I just wanted to see what you think. I've been working really hard on my life and my podcast and my career and my coaching, and a lot of things are coming along pretty well for me, but I would really like to find... my partner, my mate, someone to share my life with, and I want to find love, and I'm telling myself that I'm just not attractive, not attractive enough.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
What do you think?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Now, that helps me a little bit, but let me ask you this question now, Joshua, because I really want to believe what you just said, but I want to find out, are you being honest with me, or are you just blowing smoke in my face and trying to cheer me up with some fake crap?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, really? Yeah. Okay, so if that is true for me, and I look exactly like you, would that be true for you as well? Yes. Okay. Was that helpful to you? Yes, it was helpful. Okay. And right now, how much do you believe I'm not attractive? On the zero to 100, what your real belief is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, great. That's good. Now we'll crank into the more aggressive thing. Okay. And this time, your name is Joshua, and you know what my name is? What's that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Joshua.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And one of us will be the negative Joshua and one will be the positive Joshua.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And you can start out in either role that you want.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. OK, great. Oh, this is wonderful. Yeah. And I'm glad we're recording this because you can listen to the recording later. So you're you're going to be the negative one. Yes. OK, so you speak in the second person, you. And I'll speak in the first-person eye. Well, let me just try it the other way around first. I'm going to be the negative Joshua, and you be the positive Joshua.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I want you to see if you can defeat me. Then we'll do a role reversal.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That sounds great. Could I talk to you for a minute, Joshua?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And when you bring another person to joy and liberation, you bring yourself to the same thing. And so that's why I love what I'm doing. And this session was no exception at all. It was really... Huge. It was wonderful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You know who I am.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
that negative voice in your brain. And I didn't want to upset you or anything because I know you're having a lot of fun with that con artist, Dr. Burns. But I just wanted to tell you that you should just face the truth. I'm talking now about the ultimate truth. You're just not attractive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or anything, but that's the, as the Buddha said so many years ago, that's the effing truth about you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Who won that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay, big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay, great, I agree. I thought it was excellent, but it's not yet huge, and we're going to keep doing role reversals until we get to huge. Now, either this time you'll attack me, and when you respond with externalization of voices, there's three main strategies you can use, although you can throw in any technique, actually. But one is self-defense, which is what you used.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Another is called the acceptance paradox, where you win by finding truth in the statement. And the third is called the cat or counterattack technique. And you were hinting at that. Actually, that's where you attack that voice in your head. And then another technique you can use is one called be specific, where you transform vague criticisms into what are we talking about.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So you be the negative, and we'll see if we can get up to huge. I can't guarantee it. We might have to go back and forth a number of times working together. But we're pretty close, so hit me with that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And can you tell me in what way I'm disfigured?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Well, thank you, wise guru. I'm enlightened now and see that I'm some kind of ugly monster who's going to scare all the women. in the United States. But to quote the Buddha again, what you're saying is, it's a lot of horseshit, and you know it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
But it's true, I'm not perfect, and I did have acne, and I do have scars, and there's plenty of Hollywood movie stars who have some kind of fantastic looks. But it's just kind of a bullshit thing that you're saying because I have a lot about me that's attractive, that I can be proud of, including my love, my humility.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I've built a tremendous body that 99% of men would be the envy of and 100% of women would love to touch and follow. But there is one thing that's very, very unattractive about me that you didn't mention.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's that effing crappy voice in my head belittling me and constantly putting me down. And when I'm not listening to you, I'm feeling pretty damn happy. So to quote the Buddha and Jesus alike... Shut the F up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, right. And how did I get to massive?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, sure we can.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I used all three, self-defense, self-acceptance, and the counterattack technique, and be specific.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Use those four strategies. As an aside, this is getting a little long, but we're actually close to the end. But, I mean, if you like this and want it to be published, you could do a part one and a part two.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You don't have three minutes or two minutes?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay, so I'll speed it up and bring it to conclusion. Okay. So we've beaten that one down. I'm not attractive. Let's see if you can do it now, okay? Okay. You know, face the facts, Joshua. You're just not attractive. Burns is just trying to bullshit you. It's just a fact. You're all scarred up. You look like horrific. If women don't pass out, they'll vomit.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Well, I've developed over 100 techniques to help people with negative thoughts that trigger negative feelings. And I can illustrate one of the most powerful. It was the first one I created because when I was going to Beck's seminars, he had about...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I thought that was a huge one. Okay. But I want to remind you, maybe beat me on that one, but you won't be successful. And that's just a fact.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, but you're not going to live the life you want to live. I mean, that's just a fact. You're going to live a real shitty life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Who's winning?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, awesome. And now let's just get the final thing. How anxious are you feeling at this moment on zero to 100?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Sad.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Guilty.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Inadequate.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Lonely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, hopeless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Frustrated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Great. And I have two homework assignments for you, and then we can go and you can send me some follow-up. But if there's any gorgeous, lonely women hearing this podcast, you know who to contact. We've got someone you might be interested in. And then the second thing would be to ask people a question, either by sending them your photo or talking to them in person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
He talked about having these distorted thoughts, like with all or nothing thinking and self-blame and mental filtering and hidden should statements. And he had techniques that were innovative at the time, like examine the evidence or do an experiment to test what you're telling yourself or things of that nature. But they were a little intellectual and a little dry.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And what you would say to them is, I'm doing a special survey on how people look and what people find attractive and unattractive. And I'm wondering if you could tell me or write down three things about my appearance that you don't like and three things about my appearance that you do like. Okay. Would you do that? Because then you'll find out what people like and dislike about the way you look.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd love to do that. Yeah. Well, this has been great. Thank you for giving the extra moments. But I wanted to tie things up with a bow at the end. And it's just been an extraordinary experience for me. And let's not make it the last connection. Not at all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Thank you. My pleasure. It's been awesome for me, too. Okay. Bye-bye. Thank you, Dr. Burns. Yeah. Bye-bye, Joshua. Hello, Rhonda. Oh, well, let's see. This is just the conclusion to the session. This is a week or so later. This is the follow-up. So welcome back, Joshua. And I'm eager to see your reflections back on that session. Plus, a lot has happened since then.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You came to our Tuesday group, which is great. Training used to be limited to, you know, people, mental health professionals like clinical psychologists and like that. But now we've opened up to all, you know, to coaches, to all types of health professionals. So I'd like to see what your experience was there in the group. It sure looked like you were doing great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And how have you been feeling since the live work? What were the take-home messages? You know, what did you learn? Because in my experience, you know, no one can be happy all the time, and life is filled with bumps for all of us. And so those negative feelings have a way of creeping back in. And the techniques that work for you the first time will –
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
for the most part, work for you for the rest of your life, but you've got to know what is the thing that you learned and what is the method that turned whatever that key distortion was around. So why don't you tell us how you're doing? I'm going to center my picture a little bit here. There we go. And yeah, so tell us what's up. Good to see you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I created this technique called the externalization of voices. It was a role-playing technique. And the therapist and patient become the same person, the patient. And one plays the negative voice in the patient's brain, and one plays the positive voice in the nation's brain. And then you go back and forth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
usefulness and utility now let me just ask you a quick question here because i'm trying to write this down as fast as i can and why was i happy that the tattoo hurt so i i'm happy that the tattoo hurt because it means that i have this protective function of of pain which if i didn't have that i could be i could be in real trouble oh yeah yeah i see what you mean absolutely yeah the pain the pain is protecting me that's exactly right
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
They used to isolate them and put them on an island all by themselves. What was it? I'm trying to think. Where you can't, you lose the ability to feel pain in your body. Do you remember what it is? Anybody?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Well, there is some thing. And then what happens is people eventually, they lose their hands because they get damaged because they can't feel pain. It was a... They kept them in like leprosy. Yeah, they called it leprous colony. Leprosy, that's the name of the disease. And, you know, it's pretty horrible. So that's a neat analogy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Tell us more about what the live work was like for you and how you've been feeling since.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
and see if the positive self can defeat the negative self, can crush these negative thoughts. And if you, let me jot down, if you have some negative thoughts, perhaps ones that you've had, that... I'll jot them down here, and then we can use them. If you want to do this, which will be fun, it may succeed, it may fail.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Do you think that could be an asset in dating?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. You can focus on on the other person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Yeah. But do you ever say things like, I don't know if you've ever would want to lower your standards to someone as ugly as me. Sometimes when you accept yourself, you discover the problem was never the way you were, but your shame about it and that negative inner dialogue and that once you accept yourself,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
your flaws, they become kind of an asset, something that makes you actually more desirable to other people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, yes. Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. During my nerdy days, I was like that too. And then once I was taught how to stop being such a nerd to where suddenly women were interested in me, I thought, wow, women are really a lot more beautiful than I thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I think that was like, what was it like for you in the Tuesday group? What did you think of it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And part of my philosophy is fail as fast as you can, because the faster you fail, the faster you get to the technique that works. And there's so many techniques. But what negative thoughts have you had during moments of self-doubt, or have you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Who was your small group leader?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Was that fun also, the small group? Did you like the small group?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Yeah, it's great having you in the group. Let's see, I had a bunch of questions that my mind went blank, but there are several vitally important questions we have for you, and Rhonda will now verbalize them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, that's right. Well, let's do some of that right now. You know, we don't have time and the need for a whole other session, but let's do some relapse prevention training using externalization of voices. And we'll mix two kinds of negative thoughts together. You had four originally.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Give me a couple more of your negative thoughts, old ones, ones we did in the session or any other ones that you've had, like I'm an imposter or what. Just give me a couple of those.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
No, I'm only looking for a distorted thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That was very sharp. I'm not good enough. I'll write that one down. Yeah, good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay, that's great. And then you'll have a relapse at some point, and all your negative thoughts and feelings will temporarily come back with the same intensity that they have in the past. And then what are some of the negative thoughts you'll have? Like this shows the therapy didn't work, the therapy was just a band-aid. Give me some of that stuff.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, yeah, those are great. Yeah. And now Rhonda and David will be called Joshua, will be the negative Joshua. And you can be the positive Joshua. And we'll take turns attacking you with these four thoughts. And we'll see who won. And if we need, we'll do role reversals and so forth. Which one do you want to?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I'm not good enough. Number two, I'm hopeless. Number three, this relapse, you know, that will come in the future shows that the therapy didn't work on me. And, you know, it didn't work because I'm different. So these techniques can't help me. And I love these because they're unique to you, but they're also almost everybody has these kinds of thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And when you have someone else see someone else think of them, you say, oh, gosh, that's so irrational. But when you have them yourself, you think, oh, this is really true. So which one do you want us to hit you with first?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Okay. You want Rhonda to hit you with that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Um, you know, let me write those down. Okay. Number one, I won't be successful. Yes. And number two, I won't live the life. I want to live. And it's important, listeners, if you're upset, to write down your negative thoughts on a piece of paper. It doesn't seem like much, but it's the vitally important first step. Any others? Those are great. Those are my favorites, by the way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And the fact that you're depressed today proves it. Say that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Great. Yeah, great job, folks. And now I know that Rhonda version of you, you beat her down. But you're not going to be able to beat me down because you see the fact is that you are hopeless. And the fact that you've slipped back and you're feeling down now proves that. And I didn't want to upset you or anything, but I just want you to know that you're going to be hopeless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You're going to feel like this for the rest of your life. And you know it. You can feel it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Great. Who won that one?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, right. And part of the problem was that you agreed to something. Maybe I will be hopeless for the rest of my life, but I can still function as a hopeless, pathetic, miserable creature. And it wasn't exactly the same as joy and happiness. So let's try a rule reversal. You hit Rhonda first and then hit David. You be the negative and we'll be the positive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
No, just two, big or small.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You want to hear another version? That was a beautiful version. You want to hear a different style? That sounds great. Hit me with it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. And you're a philosopher and I'm sure you'll tell it like it is to sock it to me, big guy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay, well, thank you for reminding me of that. I can always count on you when I'm lonely to get on my shoulder and say some nasty things in my ear. But the fact is I'm not at all hopeless. I have felt like that on times, and I've felt joyous at times, and my feelings change all the time, just like everyone's feelings change. But I have a much bigger problem than hopelessness. What's that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Listening to your bullshit. Cut the F up. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
We have all therapists in the Tuesday group. But I ask them, how many of you sometimes have the thought, I'm not good enough? And at least 90% of the hands go up. And these are theoretically successful mental health professionals.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. And it's just a little different style. And that's called the counterattack technique. And it's just intended to remind ourselves that the problem is never some...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
scar on my face from my acne or the fact that I'm having a bad mood or that I lost a weight lifting competition or whatever but it's our thoughts and it's talking to ourselves in a really mean spirited way like here's another one let's do the double standard Joshua I'll be a clone of Joshua and a dear friend of yours, but I look like you. I went to all the same schools.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'm the same, you know, exactly the same, but a different person. Could I talk to you for a minute, Joshua? Yeah, of course. Right now, I'm feeling down and kind of hopeless. What would you say to me? Does that mean I am hopeless and I'll be hopeless for the rest of my life?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Now, is that true, or are you just bullshitting me to try to make me feel good? I like what you're saying, but is that absolutely true?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's absolutely true that I won't be feeling this way all the time?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, awesome. I like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay, let's do the last two, and then we'll be out of here. It's your turn, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And you know what the Buddha said recently?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
He said you can either study Buddhism or weightlifting, and it's the exact same thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, right. Is there anything else we can hit you with? Oh, you're different.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I ask, how many of you sometimes struggle pretty severely with believing those thoughts and feeling inadequate and anxious and depressed and down and unhappy, and all the hands go up? And I imagine of the people listening to your show, a good many of them can buy into this. I won't be successful, and I won't have the chance to live the life I want to live. Any others? Those are fabulous.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Joshua, you're different. So the treatment didn't work and, you know, you're screwed for life. Face it, there's some terrible defect.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Great. Wonderful. Is there anything left? Anything we can hit you with?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Thank you. It's always so great talking to you and working with you. I had a question that I promised myself to ask you. When you're coaching people who are probably, let's say, I guess the majority of them on some level are trying to get into weightlifting and improving their bodies and improving their strength, and they need coaching, a lot of the coaching you do is you're
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
immense amount of technical knowledge involving methods frequency which techniques for which muscles nutritional health general kind of issues how much of what you do has to do with emotional issues and struggles that the people are are going through i've so it's kind of it's it's really um
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Well, we'll look forward to learning more from you as you learn more about the team techniques and how to use the five secrets of effective communication for empathy and positive reframing and then using externalization of voices. They'll say, man, I've got this kick-ass weightlifting coach and he uses empathy and externalization of voices. What techniques are those? I haven't heard of those yet.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Hello there, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, those are the most important if you really want to achieve greatness. I love it. It'll be fun to see how your philosophy and methodology evolve. And it's just been a joy to get to know you a little bit and to work with you and to see your inner self and to admire your work. Your enthusiasm, your energy, your warmth, your openness. It's just been a tremendous pleasure and an honor and a treat.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Thank you so much.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, it's got to see some people in athletics make a huge impact. And certainly it's nice to have that athletic ability as kind of a platform, but how many use it as a boomerang to get up to a higher level and touch people who aren't weightlifting, but they will still love you and learn from you and and appreciate you and benefit from your struggles and your warmth and your openness.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And that stuff is just, you can't replace.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. And ladies, by the way, if you're looking for an awesome hunk, Move past because the offer won't be there indefinitely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, we might have to have a separate session on that. We could record it, and then if you want to publish it, you could publish it. Oh, that'd be great. Because, you know, I've been puzzled about that, because here you are, this hunky, handsome, muscular, smart guy, a charming, warm fellow with dating problems.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I would be so excited to uncork your champagne bottle and see what's hanging you up. Can you give me a rough idea of what happens that's impairing your dating? Because I would imagine women are throwing themselves at you constantly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, I love that. Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm not attractive. I've always had that thought, too, because when I was little, I was cross-eyed. I had to have surgery, and then I had siblings who had been adopted because my parents thought they couldn't have children.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I had two sisters that were seven years older, but I didn't know that they were adopted and that I was the only naturally born one because I came along unexpectedly after my parents had given up and adopted three kids. And I think they thought I was spoiled or a brat or whatever. I probably was.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I mean, I don't know, but they used to just tease the hell out of me and called me like bag of bones because I was real skinny. And, you know, and I squinted. I still do. You know, I try to remember, see, my eyes are open. I can't open my eyes. But I used to feel pretty inadequate, I would say intensely inadequate in that way. And I had a fear of cameras up until two years ago.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Because whenever I would take a picture, I'd be squinting. And I had a crooked smile. And they would laugh at me and tell me I looked ridiculous. And I'm sure I did. And so that was something I had to kind of get over as well. So let's just work with these here. Before we challenge them with externalization of voices, let's do a little... you know, kind of paradoxical agenda setting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And do these four thoughts, I won't be successful, I won't live the life I want to live, I won't find love, and I'm not attractive, are these thoughts upsetting to you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, that they're true. And do they make you feel sad and down?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, hopeless, defeated. Do you feel anxious? How anxious do you feel?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Do you feel guilty or ashamed?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
90.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Well, it was just a great hour with you, Joshua. It seemed very open and warm and vulnerable and real. And I got a chance to tell a couple stories from my clinical background.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And how hopeless or discouraged?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
85. Let's see. How frustrated?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And how angry?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Any other negative feelings?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Sure. Now, yeah, I'm so sad to hear because these scores are really, really intense. And there is another point that we were talking about, because, you know, if the goal of our work is to reduce these feelings, then we want to know how severe they are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And if I or maybe any of your listeners were to rate how you feel in these, let's see, nine dimensions, we would be way off because I would say, oh, this guy is a happy guy. He's got it all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
But in point of fact, your suffering inside is incredibly intense, almost beyond human understanding for someone to grasp just how profound your anxiety is and your sadness and your guilt and inadequacy, your loneliness, embarrassment and hopelessness and frustration and anger.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I want you to know that when I hear that and hear what a wonderful person you are, I just like and admire you so tremendously. I feel sad that you're hurting this much inside. How how accurately am I kind of getting how you're thinking and feeling?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
practice that were pretty important in my career and my evolution and then at the end you said could I demonstrate how a couple of these techniques work and I said well sure if you give me a few of your negative thoughts and you gave me four of your negative thoughts and we got into it and evolved into an actual live therapy session and we didn't have a lot of time but we actually managed to cram the whole
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
She kept after it after that 10-minute cure type of thing. She kept going into skyscrapers, elevators, and high buildings and kept after it. So it wasn't, you know, I think one and done is kind of misleading information.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And one tiny point here, if you look at the DSM, it looks like people have one emotion. They'll get a major depressive episode or generalized anxiety disorder or a phobia. But what the statistics from our app research showed is that there's an unknown common cause in the brain that activates seven negative emotions simultaneously, probably more than seven, but we prove that it activates seven.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And you see that here, that it wasn't just the phobia, but there was shame and anger and frustration and inadequacy a lot of emotions getting activated simultaneously and that's because of this common cause and so you may be most focused on I have a driving phobia but that's associated with the activation of a lot of intense negative emotions at the same time that's a really good point
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And there was one woman who followed up. I'm trying to think of her name, and I think she might have passed away, sadly. although she was quite a young woman, and she didn't necessarily think she had very high skills.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Other cars will do what?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember that one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
95, wow. I'm so dumb for having this problem?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But then I came down for a follow-up, and she showed me the data from the beginning and end of her groups, and she'd been doing some really awesome work and getting beautiful high-speed results from the people who were attending her 10 Days to Self-Esteem group. And it was shocking to her because she hadn't been looking at the data, so she didn't realize she was hitting it out of the park.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I can only imagine how... incredibly terrifying and overwhelming those thoughts and perceptions were. Yeah, they were really terrifying. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I have a question for you, Rhonda, and also for you, Werner. A lot of people, it's my perception that most therapists just want one simple thing to do. And so for a phobia, it would be, you know, exposure plus cheerleading, assuming the therapist is brave or, you know, vague talk about childhood and no exposure if the therapist isn't brave.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And if you're a full fee patient and want to talk for a long time without anything changing. Yeah. But a good therapy involves mastering many skills that come together at the same time. And certainly exposure is a part of the treatment of any form of anxiety. obviously including phobias.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But how important was this cognitive part identifying and challenging these negative thoughts as well as the empathy, the connection, the warmth that Werner was and is today demonstrating?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So you opened up instead of using your karate on him?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
She tried. And was that important to be vulnerable and human?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Why would have the therapy not worked or been less effective if you hadn't allowed yourself to be vulnerable and real?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Okay, nice. That's beautifully stated. I hope some of our listeners picked up on that because things are not as simple as we sometimes want to think they are. And if all I have to do is learn exposure, and then I'll be an ace therapist because I'll push my patients to do exposure. And you're saying that even to do exposure, there's an important part of a warm, trusting therapeutic relationship.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And it was really a very beautiful thing to see. I was so, so happy for her.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And that without that, it can, could even sabotage the attempts to use exposure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I also think and would want to ask you, Lee and Werner were in the car with you, I believe. They were. Did that social structure make it easier for you to do the exposure?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Made it harder to do the exposure due to the embarrassment of showing your fears?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And the thought that they would judge you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I think she had shaky self-confidence, and maybe the staff didn't have a lot of confidence in her either, so they gave, well, she can try this Burns group model. And then I think everyone was shocked at what beautiful results that she'd been getting. I'll never forget that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. You know, I have a theory about that, by the way, and it's that your thoughts create your moods.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So kindness and tenderness and gentleness can be powerful tools to overcome violent feelings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
It's fun to have you on, Werner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, okay. In the beginning, God created Earth in seven days. Oh, wow. And then he created a man and took one of the male ribs and created a woman. That's how it all got started.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. So just to comment for our listeners, uh, you, you, you went through the outcome resistance, uh, and now you're switching to the process resistance, working on those two motivational dimensions. The first was, uh, Would you want to get your emotions down to a lower level given that they show so many beautiful things about you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And you mentioned externalization of resistance, which you could have done too, kind of like externalization of voices. Try to goad Rhonda into, well, gosh, maybe it's not such a good idea because then you're going to maybe get on a bridge and it's going to collapse. And as the Buddha so often said, that sucks. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, that's what some people say.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And then having gone through the outcome resistance, now the process resistance is, well, in order to be able to drive wherever you want, there's going to be a certain price to pay in terms of exposure and discomfort.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So I'll turn it back to you, but I just wanted to explain to our listeners, because sometimes it's real obvious to us, and people need a little teaching along the way to say what step we are in the process that you're doing so beautifully, Werner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, that's complicated. We'll explain that to you after the podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Before you go on, you lost me there, Werner, and just maybe you can clarify it. You were saying that you, Rhonda, had a lot of agitation and anger, which triggered the anxiety. I believe you said something like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Okay, that's great. I'm writing that down. So that being angry with yourself about any flaw, but in this case, a phobia can actually make the problem worse. Whereas talking to yourself in a compassionate way can lower the energy. And it also probably goes along with that common cause theory that I was talking about before. before, that there's an unknown variable that we've proven it exists.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
It's like the dark matter of human suffering, this one thing that causes a lot of negativity simultaneously. so that if you get agitated and increase your anger level toward yourself in this case, that that would be expected to intensify the sadness, the hopelessness, the anxiety, the loneliness, the shame, all of the negative feelings simultaneously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's beautifully said.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, absolutely. Can I interject here for a minute? We're overlooking the acceptance paradox. Is that intentional?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But isn't it a fact that I'm dumb having these phobias, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So who won that? I did. Was that big or small? I think that was big. Was that big or huge? I think that was huge. Okay. All righty.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I'll tell you how I would answer it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Absolutely. Well, I'm excited to hear what you guys did. And I saw the daily mood log, which will be in the show notes, which is very interesting in and of itself. But tell us how scary it was and tell us what tools you used to treat this difficult, resistant patient, Werner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Say, David, you're dumb because you have the fear of heights.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
No, no, no, no. I have the fear of heights, that's for sure. And I'm often dumb about all kinds of things. You see, it's just the tip of the iceberg. The fear of the heights and the dumbness actually aren't related, but they both have their own glorious independent existences. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So who won that one?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. I just find any attempt to minimize, you know, the self-criminal system can detract from, you know, the power.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, yeah. That's a toughie right there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And a super fun thing to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Go on the boardwalk and get some of that great junk food, snow cones and candy apples.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Man, this is creeping me out. Stop.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
You have to bring those things to life for me because I'm a dummy. The first thing is when you used imaginal exposure and you said by the third one, the percentages were lower that you could bring yourself to. Was that all imaginal or you did imaginal exposure and then did the drive home?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
You're really sinking low. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
How intense was the anxiety when you were driving over the overpass?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I had a couple other questions. You said you used breathing in some way and getting into the current moment in some way. I'm not familiar with what you were referring to there. I'm sure our listeners would love to hear how you use those ideas or techniques.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I see. Okay, thank you. Yeah. One message, just to give a simple message to our listeners, is that there's a kind of hopelessness that's a part of depression, but there's another kind of hopelessness that's a part of anxiety. And hopelessness is the greatest trickster In the universe, really.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And that if you have a phobia or social anxiety or, you know, some intense fear, you're probably telling yourself that it would just be impossible for me ever to overcome this. And and what you're you're saying is that if we approach the problem with a nice palette of techniques, we're not just going to try to do one thing and shoot for perfection.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But we're going to do a daily mood log and positive reframing and empathy and so on. you know, paradoxical double standard technique and, and, uh, you know, work on many different levels, identify all the distortions and these, and these thoughts, and then we're going to have to, uh, you know, flooding, uh,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
and gradual exposure, that we have a lot of tools and that it is possible to change the way you feel, even if the way you feel is intense anxiety or intense anxiety in certain situations. It's the message of hope through practical practice. methods that you can learn and use and implement with the help of a therapist, a friend, or even sometimes on your own. That's all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But I just want to push that message out there because we get sometimes caught up on how effective we're being as therapists and how fun it is to see someone improve and forget about that experience. intense terror that the person who's struggling is feeling and maybe has been feeling for years and avoiding things.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And by safety behaviors, what you're really just referring to is different subtle forms of avoidance so we don't have to confront our fear because it's so unpleasant to do so.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
The cognitive flooding helped with the real driving.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So I drove there easier.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Did you drive home Saturday night?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Awesome. Yeah. So how are you feeling now, Rhonda, having done all of this hard work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, we'll have you come down to this neck of the woods. Yeah, I want to do that. You can visit our recording studio in old Palo Alto, or you can come here to the house and come to a Sunday hike and dim some and all kinds of cool stuff.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. It was great seeing you. It always is, whether on a hike or at an intensive or wherever. Do you remember the first intensive you went to at South San Francisco Conference Center? I do. That was the intensive where I met Rhonda. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I remember that, too, because it was like a shock. I hadn't seen you since, you know, the work I did down at the Kaiser's in Los Angeles.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And yeah, and then I remember seeing you there. I said, well, that's that's awesome. You weren't coming up here for an intensive. And you're still hanging out. And I just love you, Werner. And I'm so proud of all you've accomplished, but also really care for you and appreciate your warmth and loyalty and fellowship and support over these many years.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
You hear all the time from podcast fans who love you and look up to you, but their love for you will be intensified 10 times after today's podcast. Really?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Do we have any announcements about anything, Rhonda, that you can think of?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, I think the app is out, the Feeling Great app, so you can try it for free.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
That's what I was just saying before you rudely interrupted me. Okay. I thought you were going to get off without telling us. Yeah. You just go to either of the app stores, and then you can try it for free and see if you like it. And then if you want to buy it, it's 27 cents a day. And if you can't afford it, we'll give it to you for free.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Just contact the feelinggreat.com at the website because we want everyone who wants it to be able to use it and change the way you think and feel. But today was a blockbuster show. And thank you so much, Werner and Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Can I ask two questions before you continue? Some of our audience might not know what safety behaviors are. I thought that was an interesting thing. And that's question number one. And once you've answered that one, maybe also address why are we talking about empathy when we're talking about a phobia and exposure? Where does empathy come in?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I love what you're saying, and I'll make one brief comment and then shut up so you guys can get into the good stuff. But I think... What the client loves to hear, or patient, or person, whatever word we're using, is I've been there and I know how awful that is. And I can show you the way out of the woods. And as opposed to the message, yes, I have many phobias too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I've never been able to overcome them, so I know how awful it is. But I'd be glad to help you with yours. So it has to be, you know, the empathy. And I've felt that combined with the message of hope and confidence. And I think that's a much stronger message to a client than, you know, refusing to share your feelings like some of us were trained to do during our training.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Like, you know, just never let the patient know anything about yourself. And I never understood it at the time when I was a resident, and I still don't understand it. But I think what you're saying, Werner, is really awesome and so important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And one other brief thing, as I remember, I think Edna Foa was commenting in an article or... talking to her or whatever, that some clients during exposure for OCD will use safety behaviors.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
In other words, even when they're being exposed to their fears, they'll use mental things to try not to think about the exposure or the anxiety they're feeling, and that this tends to make the exposure ineffective.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And so whenever I've worked with people with exposure, and let's say it's cognitive exposure, so they're imagining something they're afraid of and they've gotten up to 90% anxious, I'll always say, that's not high enough. Can you get it to 95%? And make it worse. And then when they get it to 95, I say, okay, you've got another five points. I really want you to freak out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Can you make it up to 100? And so I think that helps patients avoid that safety behavior of avoiding the fear. And it also paradoxically gives the patient a message that it's okay to freak out. It's okay to feel the most intense anxiety ever. We're going to survive this together as a team.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I didn't know you were in the Wednesday group. That's neat. Werner and I go back much further, though, than what you think. Oh, wow. Really? Yeah. Tell us. When did we first meet down in Southern California? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, we were up on Roos Ridge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
The Murrieta Studio. That's right, I forgot. This was the Murrieta Studio.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. With that avoidance, the anxiety will come back. It's not enough to overcome your anxiety. You have to keep after it on an ongoing basis. Right. Or it comes crumbling back in. Yep. And that sucks when that happens. And more power to you for tackling it again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Yeah. What's Kleinfeld's?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Oh, okay. And this is one of the positive qualities we're working on right now?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
I can bring my daughter-in-law there. Bob Schachter?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Oh, I see. Okay. Well, they must be doing very well now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And it's more like working with a group of people based on reading a book like Feeling Great or Feeling Good or using the app or something else and meeting weekly for kind of like 80-minute inexpensive sessions to learn about the to practice techniques, to connect with other people who were struggling with some of the same things.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Okay. Could I talk to you for a minute, Rhonda? Sure. You know who I am. You're the devil. Well, I'm not the devil. I'm a lovely friend of Rhonda's, and I'm totally innocent, and I know how hard you work. When you went and spent two months with your son and daughter-in-law, and they're two lovely people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
babies and and you worked your ass off the whole time and now you need to relax a little bit and so you deserve just a minute or two with your favorite tv show Kleinfeld's and and it's so you say yes to the dress now Rhonda and so my goal is to challenge this thought
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Yeah, forget that timer. Just turn the knob and indulge in the pleasure you so richly deserve now. So nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Well, sure, that's all history stuff. But this is the new Rhonda who can sit down and watch for 10 minutes and then get on to other things and feel totally refreshed. And that's all we're suggesting to you is just to step into the future, the joyous Rhonda. And you can start now. Just reach over and turn that TV set on. You know, use the external control and let, let's get that yes to the dress.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
That's so funny.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
So who's winning?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Oh, really? Give us something else to tempt you with.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Yeah, it's just really fun, Rhonda. That's all it is. And you can have fun now. Yeah. Yes to the dress and done with fun later. We'll have fun sooner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And it's very exciting because it's thinking outside of the box and thinking about new and more fun and more effective ways of being successful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Well, sure, you can go out and shovel snow or sweep the front porch or something like that. Yeah, if that's your idea of fun. Or you could, you know, wash the carpets or vacuum or, you know, do the dishes. Is that what you want to do?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Well, you can bake something and have the TV on in the kitchen and, you know, you can, you know, watch your dress and bake your cookies all at the same time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Who's winning?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Big or small? Big. Big or huge? Huge. Huge. How did you get to huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
helpful to people and community and creating a sense of community at the same time, instead of a sense of isolation where you go and you sneak into the shrink's office and lie on the couch for 50 minutes and hope nobody knows you're there and stuff like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Well, I like to be very practical, and I'm sure that this group is going to be chock full of wonderfully helpful tools that really are effective. And suppose that I'm, you know, listening in Idaho or something, and I want more details about this group. Like, where can I go and sign up for it right now if I'm in the mood? How much does it cost? How often does it meet? What time of day will it meet?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Like, what are the... The specifics there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Educational what?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Educational dash group?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Dash groups. Yeah. So if I'm in Idaho or Minnesota or Albania, I go to feelinggreattherapycenter.com forward slash educational dash groups. Correct, yes. And then I can find out about...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
This tech addiction group, if I want to tighten up my life and get in control of how much time I'm spending in mindless tech things, television, Internet surfing, cell phone use all the time, whatever it might be, and find a lot of really... Helpful techniques and then other kinds of groups, too, that you can tell us about in a moment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
But one thing I missed that the tech group will be noon to one each week, once a week, an hour with practice there. It's 30 bucks a session. Contact Brandon if you can't afford that and he'll help you out. He has a special for $29.95. Okay. But he'll help you with whatever you need help with. But I didn't get, you said something about it starts January 22nd?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
So it's January 22nd through February 26th, and there'll be six sessions. Yes, yes. Okay. And what day of the week is it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Okay, great. That gives me all the info I need. And what are some of the other kick-ass groups that I'll find there at educational-groups?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And, you know, as you know, I've heard so many great things about the Feeling Great Book Club. Maybe I'll be able to visit one of them this time around and say hello and answer some questions for folks.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
But I know they really love it, and part of it is because you've been doing it so long, you've built up the teaching methods and the group morale-building methods so that people go and really have fun, really love these groups and the social connections, but also... Some of the people who've gotten really good with the ideas and the Feeling Great book have become small group leaders.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
So you also get a small group experience in addition to the large group, because I think the groups can be as big as 80 or 100 in a group for the first section. And then at a certain point, you break into the small breakout groups for what, like 30 minutes for that? Or how does that work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And that's $14 a group, which comes to about $12 an hour.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Maybe more like $11 an hour or something. Now, why would I want to pay $11 and go to your groups when I could pay for some team therapists are charging $500 an hour or $1,000 an hour or I won't name names, but, you know, $1,200 or $1,300 an hour and demand two-hour sessions. Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
So what can I get in your group for $11 an hour session or $14 a session that I can't get in their sessions for $2,500 for a single therapy session?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Yeah, not only accountability that they get in the groups for following through on homework and doing what you have to do to change, but also I'm seeing more and more that, you know, why have so many religions sprung up?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
How great is that? So if you're a feeling great app user or plan to be, this is another way to speed your growth and learning. And I might say that the things I write, I always try to write clearly, illustrate things with an inspiring true story that brings it to life. But that alone, that book learning won't do it for you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
If you're struggling with low self-esteem and feeling inadequate and second rate and inferior and worthless or anxious or socially anxious, you're going to have to. to do the actual exercises. And that's where a lot of procrastination blocks people from opening the door to joy and inner peace and a transformed life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And that's where you've supplied, Brandon, so brilliantly and with so much heart as well as entertainment value and intellectual power. powerhouse value, a place where people can go and find that motivation and do that practice. It's almost like my writing is all about riding a bicycle and how great it can be.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
But you can read all of my books and you still wouldn't know how to ride a bicycle unless you get on and you fall once or twice and then you find your balance and then you practice writing and you get really good at it. And for that dimension of the learning, you can't beat Brandon's clubs for fun, for learning, for tears and laughter and practice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Well, because people want something to believe in, to give meaning to your life, but they also want to have a community of people to relate to through your local Lutheran church or synagogue or church. you know, whatever, people are kind of craving the connection with other people. It's kind of a boring thing to say, I guess, but it's been occurring to me a lot that people really want this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And so if you kind of like the ideas that you're reading about or learning about in the app and you want to supercharge a little bit your forward movement. So where things really start happening in your life, this is a great way to do it. And I often have said that the best things in life are free. And that's why I've always promoted AA. Is AA perfect? Not at all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
They're very screwed up, to tell you the truth. But I can tell you this, if you've got an addiction, a hardcore addiction, you go to AA, they're going to give you something I could never give you in a session. And I can give you things that they could never give you. And so one plus one equals three.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And your groups aren't free except to people who need them, but they have that same power and probably more punch than an AA group would. but they're dedicated to depression and anxiety and other kinds of problems that are also very painful and disabling to people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Yeah, that's the neat thing. That's the neat thing about it, that measuring things. Most therapists hate it and refuse to do it. And they're sure missing out on the measurement. the most clever secret of all to how we can grow as teachers and as therapists by getting data and looking at the data and seeing what turns people on, what turns them off.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And then it gives us kind of a, you might say, a competitive advantage.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And once you've experienced the death of the self, then it's no longer hard to get negative feedback because you don't have any territory to defend. I heard through the grapevine that David doesn't get all of the credit for that book, Feeling Great, that he had some editors who worked tirelessly to go through that and give him tips on how to revise it and improve it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Do you know who any of those people might have been, Brandon?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Oh, you're the same Brandon. Feeling great about five times. And I was so grateful for all the heart and brilliant input you put in there. I remember you put in that poem that kind of about some medieval poem about the great death. Do you remember that one? I remember.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
That is so beautiful and so neat that you remember that. And it sounds just like what we're trying to bring about with Team CBT. When instead of beating up on yourself with all of these, I'm not good enough and all these negative messages, you suddenly discover first.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
that you're just being mean to yourself, like a bully, bullying little children, that there's something very mean spirited about doing that to yourself. You wouldn't probably wouldn't do that to other people, but also that those, those messages are just as the Buddha so often described them. And he would stand on a hill and shout to his followers. Uh, it's all bullshit. Uh,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
They want some kind of structure, social structure, that they can get together with similar people with similar beliefs and connect and learn and grow and And share and be vulnerable and open and get close to people and not have to be... Taking it all the time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And that's what he was referring to. And Rhonda has emphasized that I should use more four letter words on the podcast. And I promised her that I would follow her. But it is exactly like in that poem that you that medieval poem, you're stepping to the side where you're not all having clouds in your sky. And so.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
We had that Tom, that Buddhist monk on the app recently, and he's also going to be on our Christmas edition coming out on December 23rd. But he talks about—and I didn't—you can't always understand what, you know, these— wise people are saying. And it's even harder because he's from New Jersey. And you think that he's going to be from Thailand or Tibet or something.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
But he's just this really awesome young, young fellow. But he talked about, I asked him, you know, can you be happy all the time? And he said, well, you know, clouds do come into the sky. But the sun is always shining. And You know, and the clouds are not the sky, something like that. I just saw that. That was really, really neat that it's like that poem you can get, let go at any time you want.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
You can let that self die. That's so beautiful. committed to needing things and trying to be special and thinking you're not good enough and just let all of that die. And when you die, that is actually not a funeral, but a rebirth, a celebration, like a birthday celebration, or suddenly you're alive. And you have to have experienced it, I think, to grasp what's
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
what it means because people have tried to explain it for hundreds of years, thousands of years, and people can't get it. But that's what we're trying to bring about with, with team CBT with, with your, Book clubs with externalization of voices with all of these techniques is to give people the tools to experience that kind of enlightenment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
It's not about feeling a little less depressed or even a lot less depressed. but to feel joy. But can we feel that all the time? No, but you can't. That's humanly impossible, I believe. But you can learn the techniques that work for you, and you can make life an awful lot sweeter. So the ratio of joy to feeling inwardly miserable changes greatly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
I don't know if that resonates with how either of you experience life and yourself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
I have a question for you, Brandon, because what you're teaching is as good as it gets. Did you ever wish you were like a Tony Robbins and you had 10,000 people at a time instead of 100?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Yeah. Aren't you making millions? Aren't you one of these guru guys with Rolls Royces and stuff? Yeah. That's not what turns me on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
So those are like five secrets groups that people can join. Also, if they go to this address, feelinggreattherapycenter.com forward slash educational dash groups, and they'll find these five secret groups as well. Absolutely. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
So if you're listening here and we don't often promote things too heavily on the app, but these groups are something we do heavily want to promote and push. So go and register now. Buy now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And the thing is, is that if you're kind of on the verge of something and kind of struggling and having some hope to change your life, and you've picked up one of my books, Feeling Good or Feeling Great, and you kind of get it, but you're not kind of all the way to home base yet, and you see there's something real there, joining one of Brandon's groups
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
can be a really life-changing experience for you. It's not going to be costly. It's not going to cost you an arm and a leg. It's fun. They're sound. And they can be very life-changing. So I just feel blessed to know you, Brandon. And so Honored to get to do this kind of promotion, commercial promotion. We call this a small time and we're committed to being small timers.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And so if you want to change your life with the help of some loving small timers with powerful tools, join one of Brandon's clubs and you'll be delighted and shocked in a pleasant way. by how it can impact your life. Is that a fair way to put it, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Thank you. We've had fun, and it's been such a blessing to get to work with you, Rhonda, and you've brought so much joy into the podcasts and your personality. Yeah. You've almost made us think you're important. We haven't gone that far with it yet. No, definitely not.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
You've been a fantastic friend and blessing, and you, Brandon, too. And I just feel so grateful all the time for what's happening in our community. It's just mind-blowing. And there's some really fantastic things coming up. And I just feel so, so lucky. Yeah. And I'm lucky to have all of you who are listening. And somebody asked me about the app. I don't know if it was earlier today or yesterday.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And I was able to it was yesterday. And I was able to say, you know, the odd thing is we did a survey of our app. listeners. And I was shocked to discover, and you'll know if my memory is right on this, but Ron, it seems to me that the people who responded to the app, and it probably wasn't a random selection, and there were only two or three or 400 of them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
But I think they were saying, most of them, that they've listened to every app since the very beginning. Weren't they saying that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Every podcast, that's what I mean. Every podcast, yes. Plus they've listened to every app in the world and translated each of them into many languages. But no, they've listened to every podcast since the beginning. It's hard to believe. Yeah. So thank you all of you for... Sticking with us. We're still early January, so Happy New Year to all of you folks.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
And thanks for being with us in the past year and over the holidays. And we look forward to another just fabulous year for all of you. And we have all kinds of amazing and fun podcasts coming up. So thank you so much.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Good to know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
No, the podcast or the meeting you and working with you. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Yeah, and it's just so fantastic what's happening now. It just seems to be on the verge of exploding or kind of slowly exploding. So I think is that it for today?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Or anyone who's addicted to any kind of technology, surfing or binge-watching television or anything where you're – Video games. Yeah, video games, getting sucked into technology and you'd like a little help getting out of that hole. Well, you'll find that in Brandon's tech support addiction group. Yeah. New meaning of tech support. Right, right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Thank you, guys.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Well, thank you, Anandi Gray. We really, really appreciate your kind comment and the joy and good that you're spreading through your therapy efforts. And please give my warmest regards to your patient and say how cool it is that she made that endorsement and shared that information. We're passing it on to our many fans, all 12 people who are listening to the podcast today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
That's cool. A little lion. A little lion. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Ken, can you tell me, since I don't have a cell phone, I'm probably more naive about this idea of... What are we calling? Mindless tech use. Give me some more examples. So like elderly, half-demented folks like me will know what mindless tech use is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Well, I know the devil's advocate is really a fun one. And maybe we could just illustrate that right now, the type of thing if people were to join one of your amazing and fantastic groups or maybe just one of your extraordinarily excellent ones. What kind of things they might be practicing in the groups. And that's one of the most fun role play techniques.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Well, give us some, some tempting thoughts, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Okay, I'm going to write them down. This is really fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
We can run off and what is it when you get married? Elope. Yeah, we can still elope. I know. Awesome.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
I would say a pioneer in new ways of developing mental health to people in need and getting away from this traditional 50-minute hour once a week where you go and talk to one person and it goes on and on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
That's what you tell yourself. I'll only watch for a minute.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
I'm writing all these down. Anything else, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Hello, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
because I exchanged a couple more emails from Rudolfo, and I probably should have included them in the show notes, but I've been really overwhelmed on 10, 11, 12-hour days, so my time has been a little shorter. But what was very interesting that he was saying, and this is some hints for you guys, that he has intrusive thoughts that somebody's murdering his wife or his
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
doing something to hurt his son and he says it's usually not himself but maybe sometimes himself and he says he loves them to death and he would never do anything to hurt them but he doesn't know why he's having these intrusive images and he doesn't know what to do about it. And now that you guys have some hidden hints, what is the cause and cure?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, and that is a common confusion. People have a lot of reasons not to accept themselves, and there's a kind of healthy acceptance and unhealthy acceptance, and most people can't distinguish them, so they think that acceptance means you get stuck in your crummy self, but actually acceptance is... the greatest change a human being can make.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And my comment is, why exactly is he having these thoughts and what would be the sudden 100% cure?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Those are some good and beautiful thoughts. Have any of you ever heard about the hidden emotion technique? When people are anxious, there's often some, the symptoms of the anxiety are often trying to tell us something. Our subconscious mind is trying to tell us something that our conscious mind can't accept because we're too nice. That's the hidden emotion model.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And I'll spill out what I'm thinking if it doesn't pop into your minds.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Exactly. And why does it have to come out through intrusive thoughts? Why doesn't he just acknowledge to himself that he's angry and talk it over with her?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, niceness, excessive niceness is one of the common... major themes in all anxiety. 75% of anxious people have this hidden emotion phenomenon. And so I think what's going on is he's this very nice, conscientious fellow. I think we'd all love him if we knew him. But like the rest of us, we sometimes, well, most of us don't get irritable with the people we care about. Isn't that true, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah. And then if you have a way of sweeping these feelings under the rug, they come out indirectly. And your anxiety is your body's way of telling you, hey, attend to this. This is your subconscious mind talking to you. I'm the poetry of your subconscious mind. and you see something happening to kill your wife, is it possible that you're feeling some anger toward your wife and son?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And if you're the kind of person who finds it hard to admit that, because you think, like so many of us have been taught, if you love someone, you'll never have conflict with them. You'll never be angry with them. And actually, the great thing about anxiety and recovery from it is it teaches us that there's far more to being human than what we think.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And it had to do with your theme, Matt, of accepting. Yeah, maybe these impulses are telling me I have some anger and some discomfort in this situation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And it would be time to express those feelings and open up and maybe read Feeling Good Together, learn the five secrets of effective communication, and use this as an opportunity to communicate with your wife and maybe son on a deeper and more open level. That would be my kind of simple take on it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And I've just found that is so often true in my own life because I've had, as you both know, so many forms of anxiety myself. And I've also had this niceness phenomenon that when something comes up and it's upsetting to me, I can't remember what I'm angry about or what I'm upset about. I just feel like the world's going to come to an end.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
When you accept yourself, you have made an awesome change. And I discovered someone who said that long before I did. You want to know who it was? The Buddha? Not that early. It was from the 20th century. Carl Rogers. I think he wrote on becoming a person. And he was all about listening and empathy and accepting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And then that's my body's way of telling me, David, you're upset with somebody or with something in your life. And your body is telling you to attend to that. And then when I figure out what it is and deal with the problem or express the feelings, in most cases my anxiety, whew, completely disappears. And I suspect that's what's going on here.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
We can't treat anyone or give out medical advice in this forum. We're just talking on a general level. But it certainly looks an awful lot like that to me. And this would be something for Rudolfo to consider. And I think I did raise this issue with him. And my memory of it is that he kind of did resonate with that and might be... going in that direction.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
So maybe he can get back to us later if he hears this podcast and checks it out and let us know what happened.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Kind of positive reframing and acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
You mean it's okay for me to have these horrible, intrusive thoughts of death to my loved ones? It's okay for other people, but not for you. Okay, great. And I had a similar one in my past. A doctor came to me. He was the nicest guy in the world, and he was working in a low community with few resources.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
He was a general practitioner and spending a lot of extra time talking to people and helping them out. He was just working a 60-hour week and making very little income. And then when he had, then he and his wife had their first baby, and he had something very similar to your patients, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
When he would carry the baby, they lived on the second floor of an apartment building, and he would have the fantasy, what if I go and throw the baby over the, not fall over, but throw the baby out of the balcony, over the edge, and kill the baby that way. And it turned out to be a very similar thing that what he wasn't dealing with was the fact that, you know, a baby.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I don't know if either of you have noticed, but they sometimes take up a lot of time in the middle of the night and changing diapers and, you know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
crying and needing time and attention, if you're already putting in 60 hours, you may very well be feeling resentment toward your baby, but you're not allowed to feel resentment because you think you're supposed to be this nice, idealistic person, which this fellow was. And once we brought that to conscious awareness, his solution was a little...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
different from your patients, but it had a similar wonderful outcome, was to decide to back off, that he just couldn't be doing all of this charity work and providing for his family at the same time, and that he'd have to actually change his schedule and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
carve out some time for himself to relax and unwind and be with the baby and stop trying to do so much for everybody, which was a beautiful thing about him, but it just simply wasn't workable. So I call that the hidden emotion technique, and it's very common today. among any of our listeners right now who are struggling with anxiety, this is one of four models I use in treating anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
There's four ways to get rid of anxiety, and this is one of the four. I usually use all four with every patient, so I don't try to have just one technique that cures everybody. I have many. I've got 40 techniques in my book, One Panic Attacks, that can be life-changing for people with anxiety, but this is one of the coolest of all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But one of the fellows on our app team found all of these quotes he had on how acceptance is the same as change. And it really surprised me. I think I might have read. read about him when I was in college. We had a class on third-force psychology, the so-called new psychology at the time, that was going to focus on peak experiences, not what was neurotic about people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, you guys too. And thank you all of you who sent in these questions. Keep them coming in because you keep us in business. We're not making a ton of money, but we're having a ton of fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, you guys get first shot at it, and I'll take up the rear and give my thoughts when you two have done your brilliant reflections.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, she's saying she enjoys being alone, and she wants to know if we think that's okay. So what's your vote?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Right. That can happen, too, if you prefer being alone and you don't always want to be going to the party.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, that'd be fun. We can maybe demonstrate that in a couple of minutes here. Good thinking, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But he was very much into acceptance, and I'd always associated his name with empathy, you know, Rogerian listening, right? That's the guy. But apparently he was heavily into acceptance as well, which I was excited to see that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, I love that, Matt and Rhonda. My answer would be along the same lines, but I have a personal investment here because I often prefer being alone and I have to work hard at saying no to things I'm invited to. And fortunately, my wife feels the same too. that we'd rather just hang out at home a lot. And I love being with our cat and with my wife or just unwind, watch some TV.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But the reason why I find this an interesting question is because some people think think that it's morally wrong to enjoy being alone, that you can't be truly happy unless you're involved with other people who you care about and who care about you, and that there's something kind of inherently inferior about the joy one would have when being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But for me, you know, it can be great like being with you guys right now. I could rate it at 100 out of 100. But I can also rate, when I'm alone with myself, might be 101 out of 100. It's just not less in any way whatsoever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And I think that's the interesting thing because there's some people, particularly in the mental health space, who have such strong beliefs that you must have love and be loved and to be with people you love to feel completely happy and fulfilled. And I can tell you, to me, that's just so much bullshit. To me, it's more of a miracle if you can be with people and have a good time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And one of the reasons I enjoy our Tuesday training group at Stanford and being with you guys on podcasts is that we're open and we're not trying to impress each other and we're just – We're just being genuine, which makes it nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But most of the time, I don't want to be in a social situation and kind of resent it if I'm feeling pressured to be in that social situation when I would really much prefer to be alone. So, Brittany, if you're crazy, you can join our club because we're crazy, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Right. Nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But a lot of people don't believe it because our society puts so much pressure on us to this love addiction and approval addiction. You need love and approval to feel happy and worthwhile. And in my book, it just isn't true. The only love and approval you need is your own.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And if you don't have that, being with all the people in the world isn't going to make you happy unless you've decided to love and accept yourself. And I've spent a lot of time alone and loved it. And I found out, you know, David, you're not a bad guy to hang out with. What a surprise.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, my cats love me, too. You know, it's just so easy to hang out with a cat. They're just so grateful if you just give them a little love and keep them fed and pet them a lot. That sounded kind of lame, but I really mean it. Matt, do you have cats?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, it's very dramatic, and we have a class on that that we're about to publish in the Feeling Great app, and that's one of the lessons in that class on acceptance. But unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by joy, and then unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by despair. Healthy acceptance is accompanied by laughter and lightness. Unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by cynicism and anger.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, it's sad. Sad. Oh, by the way, oh, no, never mind. I was going to announce something, but it's still private, so I'm not allowed to announce it without getting permission, I have a feeling. But some good tidings are coming in the direction of our family.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let's just do that. You're afraid that someone would judge you for enjoying being alone, right? Mm-hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, and so they judge you for being afraid of being alone?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Enjoying being alone, yes, yeah, and judge you. And who do you want to be? Do you want to be the judger or the judgee? The judgee. The person being judged. And Matt and I will be the critics from hell. Okay. We're going to try to shame you into enjoying being alone. Rhonda, we're having this get-together, and we really want you to come.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
You're going to exclude us? You're going to exclude us then? You don't want to be with us. You'd rather be alone than be with us. Is that what you're saying?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, I think I judge you real bad because anyone who enjoys being alone has to be some kind of kook. Well, then I accept that I'm kind of a kook. That's abnormal. That's abnormal and immoral.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
No, it's okay to be alone as long as you're miserable. But if you're happy being alone, you're some kind of a sociopath.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, you're the sociopath, not us. We love being together. We're people people. People, please, or people people. People lover. People lovers, yes. We love each other. But we hate you because you enjoy being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yes. And I too feel rejected and very hurt right now. And I'm going to be miserable all day because of you. Wow. That's giving me a lot of power over you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I'd love to hear more about that. I refuse to talk about it. I don't want to have anything to do with you. Okay. Well, this is kind of ridiculous, but this is the claim, right? Yeah. Who's winning, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Big or small? Big. Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah. Absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Now, what are we going to do here for John from Ireland today?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay. Well, there's an awful lot here, but a lot more writing if you read the show notes. And you guys, once again, share your thoughts, and then I'll see if I can add a little bit to it. He has this example, and he sent me, again, emails with like 30 should statements in a row. The only one in the show notes is I should have plans on a Saturday, which he believes 99%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And he says the distortions there are should, emotional reasoning, self-blame, mental filter, and discounting the positive. And then he does a cost-benefit analysis. What are the benefits of that thought? It lets me know when I'm not performing to the standards I set for myself. It shows me my passion and goal in life for doing fun and exciting things and motivates me, you know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Uh, that's, it's just, they're, they're, they're, they're just the opposite from each other. And there's a lot of distinctions between them, but, but essentially you see, um, to take the thought, uh, uh, I've, I've decided to accept my shitty self, my below average self, uh, And I've decided to accept the fact that I really am defective and there's nothing about me that doesn't need improvement.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And then the cost is that emotionally when I should like on myself, I beat up on myself relentlessly and this makes me feel depressed, anxious and lowers my self-esteem and reinforces my perfectionistic beliefs and other negative costs of hitting yourself with should statements. And then he says the benefits are 40 and the costs are 60. So I'll let you guys dive into this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Go for it, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, right. Absolutely. He'd have to convince us that of the motivational thing. And then after that, then the semantic technique works really well, but it won't work in the absence of the motivational piece. But let's just show how that works. You know, you can be him and I'll be his negative thoughts. Are you ready? For the semantic technique? Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah. Sounds good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
You know, John, I'm the negative John, and I want you to know that you should have plans on a Saturday.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Great. Now, you know, John, so you beat me on that one, but the fact is you should be doing better at work. You're too slow and probably you're going to screw up and ruin the whole project for the company.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
No, I just think you're condemned to slowness and inadequacy, and you should be better than you are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, okay, but what if you ruin the projects at work, and what if everyone else is way better than you, and they find out about you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, I think that's great. That's a beautiful example. And again, I did quite a bit of exchange with this fellow, and I think he also has some kind of shyness and social anxiety mixed in with it. So he He got up the courage to tell one of his colleagues that he thinks he's working awfully long hours and not being productive enough and barely keeping his head above water.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And are those thoughts a reason for suicide or a reason for celebration? That's the issue. And when you get acceptance, it's not like a death warrant. It's like a celebration of birth. You wake up in a whole new universe. You've changed and the whole world around you has changed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And he told her that he thought he was the only one who feels that way. And he was delighted when she told him she's been feeling exactly the same way. And he felt that exchange made him feel like a member of the human race again. And so in addition to the great techniques that you mentioned, I think that to use exposure techniques and confront his
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
his fear of people and began to open up and use self-disclosure and also the survey technique to tell people how you're really feeling inside and ask how they're experiencing things and how they might be thinking of you and use that as an opportunity to be vulnerable and to actually get closer to people because I think one of the problems of being alone isn't that you can't be happy when you're alone but
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
you may be missing out on some realistic feedback and knowing how reality works, knowing how other people really are, because sometimes we've got fantasies that other people are so much better than we are and so much smarter and point of fact. Most people
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
People that I know struggle considerably, and even people who are very successful almost always have many blind spots and many weaknesses as well. I'm just babbling, so I'll shut up, but that was my contribution to that question. Loved it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay. And that's paradoxical agenda setting, which is one of the key components of team therapy. And that's the thing that has really opened up the doors for rapid recovery, rapid change for nearly all of the people that I work with. And the early days when all we had was, you know, 100 or more methods, it was great to have all those methods.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But finding this resistance and motivational piece has transformed therapy from months and months of slow progress at all to almost overnight transformations for a great many people. we don't have the answers for everybody, but certainly my capacity to work with people rapidly and effectively has just gone up incredibly. And I think you've been experiencing that also for a decade or two now, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But in unhealthy acceptance, you think it means giving up, never being able to find meaning or specialness or joy in living. And it's something you have to experience to understand. It's like seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time. And when you see the Grand Canyon, it takes your breath away. And you might have seen it on TV. You might have seen postcards of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, that's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And would that apply to any of the people who are listening to the podcast today and are struggling to change and have been failing in their efforts with or without a therapist to change? Probably 90% of them, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Is that something that you would do? Yeah, brilliant thought because it is an addiction. And next time I – I run into a shooter, people who are shooting on themselves. I'm going to try that exact technique as well as, of course, all of our regular positive reframing and, you know, types of thing. And then the gentle ultimatum, the sitting with open hands. But that could be another nice tool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And we were demonstrating that earlier today. with a recording for the app that we might post on YouTube. And I demonstrated the triple paradox and the devil's advocate technique with a colleague who was struggling with overeating. And we had a lot of fun with it. You know, we haven't seen it or anything because we just recorded it before we did this podcast today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But I think it can apply, those tools can apply to any situation that has an addictive component. And definitely should statements, there's shoulds against yourself. We get addicted to that and that causes guilt, shame, and depression. Should statements against other people, that's the cause of war, violence, hatred. marital conflict, relationship conflict, violence,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And then there's should statements against the world and that, you know, the world shouldn't be so screwed up. The world should be better. And those should statements cause frustration, resentment, and a lot of happiness as well. And in all three cases, there's powerful motivational factors keeping those shoulds alive because people are afraid if I give up this should addiction,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I'll be caving in, bad things will happen, I'll be giving up on my goals for my life, I'll be giving up on my idealism and my chance to score big and make some wonderful achievement. But as it turns out, the reality is just the opposite. The shoulds, in my experience, just... hold me back and create all kind of angst and negative feelings that never lead to creativity or breakthroughs.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But you've got to acknowledge the positives and the shoulds, the way they seem to be working for us as a first step to see, is this something I am interested in letting go of? And maybe they're working for me, so I should keep shoulding away until I don't have any should left in my poopy bottom.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But you have no idea what it's like until you see it. I remember the first time I saw it, it just took my breath away. I said, I heard there was a hole in the ground, but I had no idea this is what they were talking about. It's majestic beyond belief, really. And that's what the first, the moment you get acceptance, it's that kind of experience.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And then there's another technique I love called how many minutes. Say, David, you should use should statements and criticize yourself. Say that to me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, great. Would you like me to criticize myself some more? Absolutely. Yeah, a good person would do that. How many minutes a day would you be recommending or hours? Just constantly until you're better. Well, I've been doing it for years now, and I haven't gotten any better. So, you know, maybe you just want me to do it forever?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, thank you. That's a wonderful idea, but I think I'm probably going to not go for that. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, I know. I've been taking bad training from Rhonda, Matt, and David.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, that's called negative practice or worry break. Schedule time. You can do that for anxiety or should statements or anything. Just schedule at a certain time. How many minutes a day of misery do I need in order to be a peak performer? And then if you need three minutes a day, then schedule three minutes to beat up on yourself intensely. Or if you need ten minutes, try ten minutes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
It's an interesting concept and it's an interesting technique. Well, does anyone else have any wise words? I want to thank Rodolfo. This might be your first question, Rodolfo, but it was a humdinger. Brittany, this wasn't your first question. You've actually been live on a podcast with us once, maybe twice before, and you always ask great questions. So keep them coming.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And John from Ireland, we... We love you and really appreciate your interest and your kind comments and good, great questions. And all the rest of you, keep your questions pouring in here. We're publishing now on YouTube so your comments can appear. on the video version of our show, and they'll appear on YouTube. And so far, we've been able to keep up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I've responded to all of the comments we've gotten so far. We've only been on YouTube for a few, you know, podcasts so far. It's something brand new, but here we are. We're in video. We love you all, and we look forward to seeing you again next week. Thanks, David and Rhonda. It's a joy to be with you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah. I'm dancing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And by the way, I'm recording from our new recording studio in old Palo Alto. And I've got three cameras on me and all kinds of lights and stuff. It's pretty cool. This is our fourth time recording. We're recording stuff for the app and stories to publish on YouTube. And we've been having a lot of fun with it. Jeremy, Matt, was with us on all four of our recording sessions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And we're both really, really excited about it. We're trying to get all the David stories recorded. And we've already recorded 20 stories.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Do you feel joy or do you feel despair? Do you feel laughter or do you feel cynicism? Do you feel close to others, or do you feel alone on an island? Are you comfortable being vulnerable and open, or are you hiding your feelings behind a false front? It's questions like that. Unhealthy acceptance is the same as severe depression, and healthy acceptance is like healthy joy and liberation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Hello, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
They're actually the opposite feelings. I have a table in the class on acceptance in the app, and there's about seven or eight contrasts. You know, in unhealthy acceptance, you feel ashamed. You feel defective. And in healthy acceptance, you feel whole. You feel joy. You feel excitement about life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And these words won't allow you to understand what healthy acceptance is, but they're just words that will let you know when you're there and when you're not. But most people, when they think of acceptance of yourself or others or the world, they think about the unhealthy version, so they're afraid of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And they pull back from it and keep beating up on themselves and others, hoping that some good will come from it. And that's... That's one of the biggest traps human beings fall into.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And it's kind of what we're trying to turn around with our Team CBT and with our Feeling Great app is to give people a path out of the woods, out of the place you're trapped and to get into the sunlight and to get this sense of freedom and joy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah. Say to me, David, I understand you're kind of defective.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I know, and accepting that has been one of the greatest sources of joy in my life. Because, you know, one of the cool things about it? No, what? I found all kinds of other defective people who like to hang out together, like Matt May and Rhonda Borowski and a lot of others, and we have a hell of a good time. That was brilliant. I love that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Great to be here. Hi, Matt. Good to see you. It's always great hanging out with you, too. Some of my favorite times in life are being with you, too. Me, too. It's a pleasure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, yeah. All right, shall we dive into our questions for today? Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, well, I'll let you, as usual, let you folks have the first shot at it, and then I'll throw in my two cents worth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
All right. Are we ready for Ronda? That was great, Matt. I love what you're saying. So much wisdom in it. How about peeling more layers off of this onion and give us your idea, Ronda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Thanks. My thinking, you both have totally awesome answers. I don't treat things like ADHD or OCD or try to figure out what people have because we don't have mental disorders for the most part. But we have a lot of feelings and thoughts and symptoms that can be upsetting. And so I think what you said, Ron, is just so absolutely true. You start out with empathy and then you...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
look at the the the patient's agenda and and the resistance and you melt away the resistance and then you can put together a daily mood log and put a thought in the in the middle of it of a recovery circle and choose 10 or 15 or 20 ways to challenge that thought which might be i shouldn't be having these uh horrible intrusive thoughts i have a slight advantage from you to
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, we actually, what we didn't mention was that we spent a couple of years in Hong Kong, too. You know, when we were like six. And we had to go to the zoo there to wrestle animals.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, sure. That's cool. You brought us a list of great questions and various things, Matt, but including a list of 10 questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
thoughts that you've seen about by people doing a daily mood log about bullying because bullies can certainly hurt you physically but if they can't make you feel ashamed or guilty or less than or inadequate only your thoughts can do that and so that is one type of freedom that's fairly accessible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
The art form of how to interact with the bully is quite a different issue and equally important for sure. But I'll read a few of these. It was all my fault. I deserved it. This happened because I'm bad, weak, defective, different, et cetera. So that would be the self-blaming response. And one thing, I have this, what I call the contract, the abuse contract that...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
we enter into with someone who's abusing us. And I'm not saying that all human beings do, but I think... you know, a good half or more of human beings do. For example, I can remember a woman I treated who had horrible, sadistic sexual abuse from a babysitter when she was a little girl from age 5 to 10.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And the babysitter said, if you tell on me, I'll murder your sister, who was two years younger. But her thoughts were, it was my fault. If anyone found out, they'd think I liked it. and one other that slipped my mind. But the three-way contract between the abuser and the abused is I get to abuse you for my pleasure. That's the first part of the contract.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And as you say, Manuel and Matt, it can be sexual abuse, it can be physical abuse, it can be financial, it can be psychological abuse. Whatever. The second is that this is all on you. This is happening to you because you deserve it. And I'm superior and totally innocent. You're the dirty one. You're the bad one, the defective one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then the third part of the abuse contract is, if you tell any, we have to keep this secret, even from ourselves. that there's anything wrong or abnormal going on here. And if you tell anyone, then it's going to be the last thing you ever do. And this was a very bright woman. And it was 40 years later when I treated her. But she was still following those rules. She had never told anyone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
She was still feeling guilty and ashamed. The man who abused her eventually got in a bar fight and got shot and murdered when she was 10. So that stopped the abuse. But she kept suffering for the next 40 years. But I really thought she characterized that abuse contract. And she was an extremely brilliant woman. And yet she had subconsciously bought into that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I think the bullies rely on the weaker ones to buy into that contract. And that's part of what's so horrible about it. And that's where we can help people with these negative thoughts, the self-blaming thoughts. And the self-critical thoughts. I'm done on my rant there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Wow, that's awesome. I love that. And you just said the name of our podcast, the topic of our podcast today is on bullying.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It's on brand, yeah. It's not a funny topic, a very serious and horrible topic, but one that I think is really needed. We're lucky to have you, Manuel, and Matt, to give us a little of the inside scoop on the best way to think about bullying and to change the way you think if you're being bullied, which is probably half of what we'll talk about. And then the other half would be...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So I want to see if I understand part of what you just said, which was really good. I think you said it's going to be kind of okay and inevitable to feel some embarrassment, humiliation, shame. anxiety, hurt, fear, anger, when it's happening.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But we can give you some tools to talk back to the thoughts that are creating those feelings so that you don't have to be carrying around those feelings for prolonged periods of time and that we can learn to... to have peace of mind, I think you're saying, for longer and longer periods of time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Like you maybe can't prevent yourself from having automatic reactions in the here and now, but one can go back, write down your negative thoughts, recognize the distortions in them, and talk to yourself in a more realistic and loving and accepting way. Is that kind of what you were saying?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Manuel, it sounds like, you know, I'm reminded of a kid in my neighborhood that lived in one of my neighbor's children who was a boy probably in sixth grade who had been bullied the whole school year by a girl in his class. And he felt so shamed about it that he didn't tell his parents. He didn't.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
what to say, how to use the five secrets of effective communication or whatever verbal strategies to respond to the bully. So you've got your inner dialogue, which is the way you're thinking about yourself, the messages you're giving yourself if you're being bullied, and then the outer dialogue is what you're going to say to the other person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
He might have told his teacher, but the teacher was just so busy with a huge class number that she didn't pay too much attention to it. And the only reason that came forward is because eventually this girl threw a shoe at him and he hit it and he came home with a mark on his forehead. And then it came out. And I'm wondering from what you've described –
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Is there, you know, and of course working with the kids and the thoughts that they're having, this question is a little bit off that subject, but is there any training for teachers and school personnel besides parents on how to address it, identify it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And Matt and Manuel have some fantastic answers to those two questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We have time. We have one more minute, so I'm going to talk real fast. Yeah, we don't particularly keep track, but, you know, we're doing fine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Could we demonstrate two things that, you know, I don't want to push it too hard, but from the internal point of view, maybe we could do some externalization of voices or something, or, you know, double standard technique, or, you know, identify the distortions in some of the thoughts that might...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
trigger shame like did i don't want to push you too much into this position but i was just thinking like did did did you have negative feelings like when you were bullied about being poor short four eyes uh
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, could you just start off by explaining what you mean by bullying?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
called a fag if you were or race or things like that did you have negative thoughts and feelings and can you recall what what what some of them were or maybe the the ones of kids who have come to you for your wonderful help as a psychiatrist well sure i mean i think the biggest one that we all kind of feel is that gosh what if everybody thinks that you know yeah
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's cool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, so this would be kind of like double reattribution. I just made that up and I don't know much. I thought I better use some big words and impress people pretty quick here. The one piece of the reattribution is instead of just, you know, just...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Instead of thinking, you know, why did they do this in terms of what did I do wrong or what's wrong with me, to be thinking, you know, what kind of pressures are they under or what kind of living situation are they coming from? What kind of pain are they hiding or what are they trying to achieve? And then you also mentioned... responding in non-defensive or adversarial ways.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I would have a suggestion if people want to try, and keep in mind that nine out of ten of my suggestions end up on the cutting room floor, so that's fine. But I was thinking we could do some feared fantasy or externalization of voices on the kinds of thoughts that one of us or all of us might be having when we're bullied and see if we can crush those thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then secondly, we could do kind of a feared fantasy thing and practice, you know, what is going to be effective ways of responding to a bully. So we could go into the theater of bullying, you know, and interact with the bully from hell to do the verbal responses. And then we can go into the...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
mind of of someone who's being bullied and see if we can help help crush those those thoughts would that make sense yeah yeah so oh i was going to just use another quick example that basically what you're saying and then we'll do the example that in in a very thorough way which is you know like i'll tell people is that you know if
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But essentially, just to simplify what you're saying, which is already simple, is to say that we do have a choice about how we're going to interpret a situation, how we're going to think about it, and we can get into a hypnotic trance of despair and anger and humiliation and guilt and shame and thinking about what's wrong with me and...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
woe be me and this is awful or we can be thinking about that person like where are they coming from you know why are they doing this is this how they get their kicks their thrills are they feeling insecure on some level whatever is going on with them and that also that could have to do with our body language and how we respond to them because we might say oh wow that
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
that's even more colorful than the one you gave me yesterday, which itself was pretty far out. And I can't wait to see what you'll come up with for tomorrow. And I have to hand it to you. And you might consider a career as a horror novelist like Stephen King, and you could write awesome novels and make movies and make millions of dollars. I've got to hand it to you. You are good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're a good shit, as they so often say.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So Manuel, can I – so instead of focusing on I must be a terrible person to being picked on, you're encouraging that child or whoever is being picked on to observe what's happening in the moment kind of in a neutral way. Like, oh, that's interesting. This is what's going on right now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
They can invite me to beat up on myself for the next 12 hours, but I'm not obligated to accept the invitation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, right. And that would be a great verbal response, too. Yeah, so you don't do nearly as good a job beating up on me as I do on myself, but I'll have to hand it to you. You come up with, you're more creative than I am.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, and you can put me number one on your fan club because I've been admiring you for a long time, you big, cute guy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, yeah. See, a lot of people do think about me a lot, and I'm just so glad to include you in the group.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, yeah. That's good. That's good. Okay, now, I'm telling myself that I'm a terrible, horrible person, and all these people are laughing at me and looking down on me, and I'm feeling incredibly ashamed and humiliated. I'm feeling weak and inadequate, and this fellow's really strong and... I might have to use my karate and kick him in the testicles.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And it just hurts me so badly to hurt someone like that. No, I'm just being ridiculous now. But I'm just feeling like I'm just a loser. So what help can you give me?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Let's do some externalization of voices. You want to, Matt and Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Either way. Sure. Sure, we can do. Rhonda and I will be Matt's negative thoughts. In this exercise, actually all of us are named Matt. Okay. And we're going to be Matt's negative thoughts. These are the things he's telling himself. And we're going to attack him with his own thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And your job, Matt, is to speak in the first-person eye and see if you can defeat us and you can use three strategies, the acceptance paradox, the self-defense paradigm, the counterattack technique, or a fourth option would be other, any other technique you want to use. So give us a few negative thoughts so we'll know what your negative thoughts are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'm worthless. I'm a loser. But let's just start with that, okay?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And also you've listed ten really scary negative thoughts, really painful negative thoughts on the sheet that you passed to us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, okay, good one. Everyone's looking down on that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, I'm going to name it Manuel because it's so big and ugly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, yeah, yeah. Manuel, you also said, everyone hates me. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, are you ready, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay. Now, keep in mind, this is not training for interacting with the bully. This is interacting with the inner bully, the thoughts that you give yourself and how to talk back to those. Because in the last analysis, you're the only one who can really bully yourself, although that might sound uncharitable. But could I talk to you for a minute, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yes, I am, and I'm aware that the kids at school were kind of bullying you and laughing at you, and I wanted to tell you why that is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No, it's not a hypothesis. It's a fact. Oh, a fact. A fact of the universe, and that's because you're worthless, and that's why everyone hates you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay. Who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay. You can hit him, Rhonda, with the same exact thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, Matt, you know, you're kind of worthless because everybody hates you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And now is this externalization of voices or feared fantasy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, yeah, okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And actually, after each of Matt's responses, let's see, ask him who won, and if he won small, big, or huge, and see if he can get up to huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I mean, they're going to be different. So we have to know which universe we're in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I was thinking this is still externalization of voices.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But I can move it into food fantasy. So then you're Manuel's negative self. Your name is—and what's Manuel's name?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Manuel?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And this is a girl.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Let's have it be my negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, so you're both Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're both Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And you're going to be the positive, self-loving Rhonda, and Rhonda's going to be the self-critical Rhonda. And she's going to speak in the second person, you, and you can speak in the first person, I. And she's the self inside you that's going to try to tear you down. Is that right, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then you see if you can defeat that negative voice in your head.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Okay. You know, I heard you had a crush on Danny, but you're not cute enough to go out with Danny. You're kind of ugly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Who won that, Manuel? Me, the negative, attacking voice, or you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Like your response was weak and it didn't work.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's true. We all agree. Now, let's do a role reversal and see if Rhonda can model something more effective. You be the negative Rhonda and Rhonda will be the positive Rhonda and say exactly the same thing that she said to you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, ouch, ouch. Well, I am really gawky. And I'm probably, you know, I am pretty ugly for my age. There are lots of prettier girls than me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
All that is totally true, and I guess it doesn't really matter because I sit next to Danny in my math class, and we hang out together all the time, and we are doing homework together, and I guess he doesn't care that I'm ugly and gawky because we're having a lot of fun together, and that's really what matters.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So who won that, Rhonda? I think I did. Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I think that was big.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It actually feels huge. They've got huge enough.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, I like that. You did?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
date you or somebody it's not you're not worthless i like how you did that well thank you i'd love to hear david's response david could you uh play play ronda and when we're already at huge i can't oh yes i can i can give a better response than that sure you want to hit me hit me with it ronda or you want to hit me with it man or i'll be the positive ronda
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Could you comb your hair a little Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I am kind of gawky and awkward, and I'm at that time of life where things are rapidly changing and evolving, but I have a lot of fun with Danny, and I can survive if I have a crush on him and he doesn't have a crush on me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We get along really well, and we study together and have fun together, and I give myself a lot of points for that because I don't see him doing that with a lot of other girls. And I think we are really good friends, and that's not a bad thing. But there is one person who really seems to hate me. It's actually not Danny. I just have one real enemy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's you. And so to quote the Buddha, stick it where the sun don't shine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Right. And so there I was just taking the very excellent thing that you had done, Rhonda, but I was adding the counterattack technique. Now, the counterattack technique is not necessarily something you use on the bully. I think we'd use other more humorous techniques. But this is something you use on the bully, the inner bully, the bully in your brain.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And it's very powerful to stand up to that bully because that's the only bully that can ever make you feel bad. And I might say, too, to that inner bully, that sex appeal is kind of a learned thing. And to tell you the truth, I think I am learning a little bit by my fun interactions with Danny that are sometimes playful and kind of cool and awesome.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I'm actually proud of how Danny and I are doing. And... You know, if we don't end up getting married and having six children, that's fine. He'll just be one of the stepping stones along the way to learning to grow up and find love. But right now I want to be, you know, happy with myself, and that comes by not buying into you constantly in my ear putting me down.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, that that would be powerful, actually, because that would be a combination of changing the focus. And I feel statements drawing attention to the game that's going on and sharing, sharing your feelings without trying to hide them. Yeah, man, you're you're really powerful and.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You've got some, I'm sure you've got a powerful punch and kind of a powerful punch comes out of your mouth sometimes too. And I say, you know, touche, you're winning. Yeah. Way to go. You know, you got style. You're one of the biggest put-down artists here at our high school. And your fame is spreading. Yeah, we nailed it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Sure. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
A little toad. Yeah, wow, Lindsay. Actually, you are one of the most beautiful girls in the school. And, you know, maybe you want to be talking to Danny instead of me. And that would be okay with me. I mean... Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just a friend of his, so if you want to hang out with him, go for it. I'm just a person that he likes to hang out with in math class, and that's okay with me. Good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Who won there? I won, but it didn't feel huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It didn't feel enough. I mean, like, here you are. You're the most beautiful. Yeah, you're right. You're beautiful. And if you want to hang out with him, go for it. I don't need to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'm just— Do a role reversal with Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, it was kind of a fake response. Right. So do a role reversal. Matt will be the— I'm Rhonda now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, I'm Lindsay. Yeah. Yeah, so I saw you batting your eyelashes at Danny in class the other day, and you're just fooling yourself. You're totally an idiot if you think he's going to like you because you're just so gawky and ugly. He'd never go out with anyone like you. Oh.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, we have to ask Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I mean, it felt like you won for sure. But it also feels unrealistic to imagine a teenage girl saying that stuff.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But, I mean, I love that you're saying it. And it definitely felt like that was a huge win for you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That was huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It felt like a huge win, but I can't imagine another girl. I'm thinking of a 13-year-old girl who's one of my clients and who's sort of a shy kid.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You wouldn't want to teach them how to do that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I think it's what you're saying.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No. I'm saying that I think that takes a lot of courage and self-awareness.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No, I think that was actually a huge moralistic win. And I love that. And I love that you're saying that it's a motivational, would you be willing to turn your enemy into your friend and say something like that? Like, yeah, you're beautiful. And I, I really admire you and I don't live up to your standards. And I would love to know, like, how do you do your hair and your makeups?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Like, I would like to be more like you. Cause honestly, I do like Danny and I want him to like me too. And if you could show me how to do that, I'd love it. But, I also don't totally understand why you're being so mean to me. I've never really bugged you in the past. We hardly even know each other. So maybe you could also tell me what I've done to hurt you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But I've been admiring you from a distance, and you're really fantastic at what you do. And I'm number one in your fan club. I like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I think you've got to do the internal dialogue first with externalization of voices until the person has really seen through the bullshit that they're giving themselves and can talk back to their own negative thoughts and not feel so threatened. Just say, try to bully David right now. Just say, Dave, go ahead, just say something, whatever you want. This will be a feared fantasy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
82 in September. You can bully elderly people. Go ahead.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Better make it real than we can translate it into the fourth grade level. But just try it. I dare you. I defy you. I'm ready. Sock it to me. Rhonda, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
David, look, everybody hates you. You're pretty worthless. Everyone looks down on you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No, no, you've got it all wrong. A lot of people admire me. I think they must be desperate or have very low standards, but I can tell you I have tons of flaws, and people should probably look down on me more than they do. And there are thousands of people out there who look down on me and think I'm a kook, and they're probably half right or 75% right. Are you one of them?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'm not anymore. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So who won that one?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You definitely won that one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Big. Huge. Also because you made it kind of funny. Like, you know, finding agreement in it and then making it funny. It takes the power and the anxiety and the animosity out of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But the key to it is that it didn't threaten me because I've done my inner dialogue. Because, see, you've got to be able to trigger my self-hatred. That's the first key to overcoming bullying is learn to love yourself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, that's such an important part. Could you just say that again?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, the key to overcoming bullying is learning to love yourself. Now, I'll be a fourth grader, and you can try to bully me, Rhonda, or Manuel, or Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, you know, I love this shirt. I think I just have, I must have weird taste. But, you know, I love the way you look. It's just kind of a brown T-shirt. It's kind of a hunky, awesome look. That's cool. Mike, where did you get that one? Maybe I'll get one of those myself and wear it tomorrow.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay. And then how was it a slam dunk?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, and agreeing with you. A disarming technique plus stroking. But you can't do that if you're feeling threatened. That's why you've got to tend to your own inner bully first. The first thing is to change that inner dialogue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Actually, that's exactly what we do do every morning. We're in this strange religious cult, and we kind of do that. And I'm glad you noticed it because most kids don't seem to notice. And we're looking for soliciting new members. We have comic book, Jesus comic books and crap like that. And you can come on over and roll in the Sharpies with us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Okay. Hey, I heard from Sam that the coach pulled you out of the baseball game on Saturday in the middle of the fourth inning because you're such a lousy baseball player. You should drop off the team.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
To tell you the truth, he should have pulled me out before I started. I can't hit the ball, and I'm not good at throwing or catching. But other than that, I have one of the top games in the United States. But if you think that was bad, you should have seen me at football practice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I won't talk about it if you don't want me to, but you're awesome at what you do. And if I talk about it, I think it'll help you with your reputation as being a bad boy. And, you know, the bad boys get all the girls and stuff, but whatever it is you prefer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, you probably will, and I'll see if I can get in a lucky blow to your nose, but I have no doubt that you're going to win because you're much stronger and bigger, and you're a tremendous athlete, and I've admired you, actually. You're good-looking, and you're smart, and you're... You know, I would say you're probably the coolest guy in school.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And you can beat me up if you want, but keep remember that I'm number one on your fan club.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, okay, that's good, yeah. That'd be kind of like a massage. Can I tickle your midsection too? Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're going to tell people I'm a what now?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, that's the least of my faults. But that's a starting place. But I can give you a lot more, you know, a lot more of my faults to spread around. And yeah, go ahead and say those things. I've actually been taking slut training at the local Y. And so I'm glad it's beginning to show. I used to be very sincere about And I couldn't get any dates. And boy, has my life changed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Maybe not. I think these things, you've got to reflect on it. Let's do a role reversal, and Manuel will show us the huge win. Manuel, I'm just going to tell everyone in school that you're a little slut and a whore, and you probably want to suck my dick, you little fucking whore. I'm going to tell everybody. I can give the answer to it, too, if you want. You want to hear the response?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, let's hear the response. Yeah, please do. In fact, my cousin is a reporter for the local newspaper, and you could talk to him and tell him. He might even write it up and quote you. You could get some really cool publicity that way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I'll repeat what I've said two or three times during this podcast, and some people may hear it and some people may not. But it starts with the internal dialogue, and you've got to be able to talk back to your own thoughts. Those statements could never have an effect on a human being. Those statements do not upset children in grammar school.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
only what they're telling themselves, and that's where the work begins. And once the person is no longer feeling threatened by their own inner self-abuse, then it's much easier to take a lighthearted response to someone else who's trying to bully you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And a little humor, stroking, disarming, non-defensiveness. Just say, yeah, if you just spread those slut rumors, I would appreciate it, because that's actually one of my lesser flaws, and my status might actually go up a little bit. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, right. Well, why doesn't maybe Matt and then Rhonda and then Manuel and David, or we can have Rhonda be the last word, just summarize kind of what we've been doing today. And I don't know if it was any good or not. I have... I went into hypnotic states of helplessness and awfulness when you were describing, you know, being bullied in really adverse circumstances.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I, you know, I was bullied by this guy named Red in like seventh grade or sixth grade. And he says, why don't you come on over to my house and I'll fight you right now. And, you know, I didn't obviously go over to his house, but it was very humiliating. And I'd like to run into that guy and bust his effing nose even today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Red, if you're listening to this podcast, I'm ready for you now, big boy. You're not dead already, and I hope you are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I just wanted to ask Manuel one thing before. I want to hear your summary, Matt. But Manuel, you said that you were going to tell us the signs for parents and teachers to look out. Like that kid in my neighborhood who was bullied for a school year, and nobody identified it. How can parents or teachers identify if a kid's being bullied?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Great. Thank you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I have two other small contributions. I think kids will always tell you how they're feeling if you ask in a specific way. Like if they understand 0 to 100 or 0 to 10, you could just say you look like you might be feeling a little sad or down or unhappy. How unhappy are you feeling on, say, a 0 to 10 scale? Hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then if they give you like a 6 or an 8 or a 10, that's, you know, how anxious or scared do you feel on a 0 to 10? Do you feel alone or lonely on a 0 to 10? How ashamed do you feel? How inadequate do you feel or inferior? How hurt? How angry? How... How discouraged do you feel?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I have one question. I won't be saying a lot in this episode because I don't have a lot of knowledge. You guys do, except where I can contribute is on the messages we give ourselves to make ourselves miserable. But what I wanted to ask about is, to me, I've pretty much always viewed human nature as having a duality
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Those are simple words, and kids will tell you, you know, on a zero to ten or a zero to five, just say ten is the most and zero is not at all. They'll usually tell you what their feelings are. Well, I guess you would have more knowledge of that than I would, Manuel, because you're working with kids constantly, but that is one thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then another thing that I said that could be misinterpreted by listeners to the show is, When I'm talking about how to change the internal dialogue in the child's head, I'm talking about techniques that a good therapist can use. But the parent's role would be to empathize and provide warmth and support, like the podcast we did on how to help and how not to help.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You've got to have an agenda with someone like what you're saying, Matt, with the child before you can teach them these techniques to love and accept yourself. And if the parents just jump in and try to teach those things to the kid, it will backfire.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, right. That's nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
What did he say?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, cool. Very nice. I love that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, the only thing I would add that to me...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Hello, David, and welcome to all of our listeners around the country and throughout the world and the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast, and it's episode 417. We have two special guests, Matt May, who's a frequent visitor to our podcast. Hi, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
seemed incredibly important is before you can respond to a bully outside of you that you have to overcome the bullying that you're doing to yourself and and work on you know whatever it is that triggers your self-hatred so that when someone does bully you or say something mean or belittling that's there is no response there is no self-hatred and you can just then laugh or praise or join in with them
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It's actually fun once you're not buying into it. Yeah, it can be like a game. You know, Rhonda, could I talk to you for a minute?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You know, you're not an important person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, there's nothing more true than that, especially being amongst you three men.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're killing it. That's knocking it out of the park.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Thanks. Well, I have a good teacher.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. It's kind of fun, isn't it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It is kind of fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But maybe Manuel could come back because one thing we didn't talk about is cyberbullying. Maybe Manuel, would you be interested in coming back again to talk about cyberbullying one day?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Now we can, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No, I can't hear you at all. Oh, no.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I want to thank you for coming in, Manuel, on your vacation. I know your fishing is one of the big deals in your life, like what we used to do when we were traveling in Africa when we were about eight and when we caught those enormous 30-pound trout and then we would eat them raw. That was some of my favorite memories. But I know that you're having fun on your vacation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
of a positive, joyous, loving side to human nature and an inherently dark, sadistic, hurtful side of human behavior, and that they're both absolutely inherent things. in human nature uh you know a lot of people the pope recently made the statement that human beings are inherently good and and you know to me that sounded like a lot of non-nonsense a lot of silly overly idealistic thinking
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Your vacation today and your fishing this morning, and it really touches me for you to come in and talk about something you feel so strongly about and you have so much wisdom about and to share it with the three of us and with the six people who are listening. Thank you, six people. I hope this helps. Love you, Manuel.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We found one of those in the fountain right in front of our house.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Wow. You will jump into the boat. You will jump into the boat.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions. If you want to support the show, please share the podcast online
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But I think the thing that's hard for people to grasp is that in all of us, and you see it out in the open when someone's bullying someone, they're really getting a sexual and sadistic thrill out of inflicting pain and humiliation on someone who can't defend himself or herself or themself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But I'm just throwing that out there to see if you guys have that same view of human nature that they're bullying. It seems to me it's like a great example of sadistic behavior is what it is to my way of thinking.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And we have a repeat guest, Manuel Sierra, who is a child and adolescent psychiatrist currently living in Idaho. He did his fellowship at Massachusetts General Hospital, and he did his residency with Matt at Stanford. And one special thing about Manuel that many people don't know is that he grew up with David and Tom.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Couldn't it also be a learned behavior? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Together they wrestled bears and mountain lions, which I'm sure we'll hear more about in the podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Right. It's really telling me that they don't want to be here. And then when I'm doing couples work, which isn't very often, then I would say, why don't you and I, I meet with each member of a couple individually before I'll accept them into couples therapy and emphasize that if you want me to help you, you have to agree to focus on your own role in the problem.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And stop blaming the other person and do the changing yourself and change the way you're interacting. And you have to convince me that you really do want to develop a more loving marriage or relationship. And if the person then starts interrupting, they're kind of telling you that they didn't get that message.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And so I'd want to meet with them separately and say, perhaps you're telling me that you don't want to be in couples therapy. And that's cool with me. But I could see that you were kind of sabotaging that technique. What do you think?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And really hold their feet to the fire and entertain the idea that maybe I don't want to work with this couple as a couple because only one of them wants to be in therapy. I might work with the spouse individually, but I wouldn't let this person continue in couples therapy unless they could convince me that they really are looking for a more loving relationship.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And they are willing to change themselves rather than blame, constantly blame and attack the other person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yes, please share that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Interesting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And, you know, the, um, where that's where it's, it's good. It can interrupt, you know, a pretty hostile process that's going on and it can make that interrupt that process and get them into a more peaceful interaction quickly where it falls short. Well, there's a couple of things to be aware of. One is, is that, um, the, uh, it doesn't lend itself to normal communication.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
It's a very, you know, artificial kind of exercise. And you can't keep having a normal conversation, you know, on that very formal kind of thing. So there are other more challenging couples methods that allow for more spontaneous exchange that you can move into, like the... Don Balcombe's machine gun therapy technique.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
He's from University of North Carolina and has developed some really neat ways of working with couples. And that's a more challenging but probably more challenging
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
superior technique and then the other thing is if you're going to be using this at least to get couples started um you you you also ask them uh individually uh like i would say to you matt would you be willing would well first would the two of you be willing to do homework between now and next week practicing this Hello.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yes. OK. And by the way, your two sounds are so one is so loud and the other is so dim. I hope Josh can can can correct that. But the then let's assume that you've decided on a time. And we won't go through that negotiation right now just to save time. But let's say you're going to do it every evening at 6 o'clock from 6 to 6.15.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And so then I would say to you, Matt, and you're going to do it every night, Monday through Friday, from 6 to 6.15. And you're going to go into your library. The kids are not allowed to come in. The TV is off, the radio is off and stereo is off or whatever. And you're no alcohol and you're going to sit in two chairs facing each other and do this exercise. Do you agree to do that, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And do you agree to do that, Rhonda? I do. I do. Okay. And now, Matt, I want to know, do you agree to do that if Rhonda refuses to come? In other words, do you agree to go into that room and sit down and you can bring a book and read it or something, but you'll wait even if Rhonda doesn't cooperate?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Okay, so I take it you're not willing to do that. Is that correct, Matt? And then I think I'm going to withdraw the assignment and stop doing the couples therapy. And is there anything else I can help you with?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, because this is agreement between you and me, Matt. This is not an agreement between you and Rhonda. Do you understand that, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And if you don't do that, you're telling David that you want to drop out of therapy. Is that clear?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And Rhonda. Now, Rhonda, do you agree to go and sit in the library from 6 to 6.15 every evening, even if Matt stubbornly refuses to show up?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
I do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Okay. That's great. And that's how I set up the homework so they can't sabotage it and blame the other person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
I like it. Well, enough on couples therapy. It's not my favorite thing. It's very challenging, but you guys did a beautiful job with the demonstration.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Okay, great. Well, thank you, Aaron. That's a great question. And what you do essentially in memory re-scripting, you have a person go back and relive a traumatic memory. In this case, it was a college student who was afraid of public transportation. And he When she was little, her mother was a single mother and would often go off in the evening for a date or a business meeting or whatever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And the neighbor boy would babysit. And she said that it was very painful for her because when he would come over, when he thought she was asleep, he would creep into her room and put his hand under her nightie and fondle her.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
and she would pretend to be asleep because she was so terrified, and she didn't want to get hurt, and she didn't know what to do, and she was so ashamed she never told anybody. And she was going, let's say, to Princeton, but when she would come home to Philadelphia for holidays, he was still living there next to her, and she was very, very bothered. And I had mentioned...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And she was very cooperative and did a lot of her psychotherapy homework, but she would not do exposure. She would not get on a bus even for one block, even if I promised to be waiting for her at the end of the block and she could get off. Even that was too much for her.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Well, thank you so much for that wonderful comment. We've been very excited, Teresa and David have, as well as with some support and inspiration and a lot of elbow grease, too, from Jeremy Carmel. who's our CEO of our Feeling Great Corporation. And he really made it possible for us to create these videos.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And so I mentioned to her, maybe she'd want to try this memory restricting, which is a very kind of grotesque technique in a way. But what I would do, I would kind of hypnotize you and bring you back into that memory. And then at the height of your anxiety, I'll let you be a movie director and change the script and have a different outcome. And you can decide what you want that to be.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And so she was very excited about that. And so I told her to close her eyes and imagine, you know, you're back and you've gone to bed and... He thinks you're asleep and he's creeping into your room. And can you see him? And she said, yes. And I said, what shirt is he wearing? She said, he's wearing a plaid shirt and sneakers and Levi's. And I can see him just as vividly as he's here.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And then what's he doing now? He's reaching under the covers and he's reaching up under my nightie. And how anxious are you feeling? She said, 100%. And I'm terrified and angry and frightened and devastated. And I said, now, if you like, you can change the scene like in any way you want.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
You could have me come into the scene and help you or you could come into the scene as a powerful woman and do something to him. And you just change it like a movie director with a different outcome.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And so she wanted to come into the scene as a big, powerful woman, and she said, I'm going to grab him by the neck or by the collar, and I have a white-hot cattle branding iron in my hand with a P on it, and I'm now – branding his forehead, and he's screaming in pain, and I can smell his flesh burning, and I've branded a P in his forehead for pervert. And I said, how do you feel now?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And she says, I'm starting to feel a lot better, but I want to do more. And then she took him next door where there was a Christmas party going on and she made him stand in front of all the neighbors and shout out, I'm a sexual pervert and I deserve punishment. And then in the final scene, she put him in a jail in front of her house, an open air jail. This is all in her mind.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Mind you, it's kind of a fantasy. And there's no walls, but there are prison bars. And then on the jail, it says sexual pervert. So everyone will know he's a sexual pervert. And he has to sit out there and live in that jail. And she said that really helped her and she liked it. And then she went into a whole other, she said, there's another one I want to do. And it got even more grotesque.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And her roommate had been raped in the woods by a gang. in an old broken-down vehicle, and she wanted to reimagine that one. Even though she hadn't been there, the roommate told her about it, and she couldn't get these pictures out of her head.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And so she saw them raping her roommate, and then she grabbed them one by one and castrated them with a bayonet and watched them all bleed to death, all eight boys. And to me, it was incredibly grotesque. And I didn't know if it was good therapy or malpractice. It was frightening to me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
But she gave me really high grades at the end of the session on the empathy and helpfulness and appeared to have really liked the session. It's a controversial technique because it often becomes violent. And And the experts have debated about that and said, if you don't permit them to have their violent fantasies, then you're doing more repression.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And Teresa and I have been learning really fast because when we started out, we were totally lame. We were at poor advice from people who didn't know what they were talking about and did a crappy job. And now we're really having fun and getting beautiful feedback from And these are videos on our Feeling Great channel. They're free of charge. And we're very proud of them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And the idea is to give them, you know, the freedom of thought and so forth. And so that's what I did. But she came back the next week, and she showed me some plane tickets she had. She said, you know, you might like this. And she had gotten a round-trip ticket to Nepal. Her mother had a business meeting in Nepal, so she told her mother, she said, doctor wants me to take public transportation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
How about if I ride with you to Nepal today? The mother was going to be in Nepal for a week, and then I'll take a plane back alone, and I'll be for 23 hours alone on public transportation. Is that enough, Dr. Burns? I said, more than enough. And that's what she did. And she was then no longer afraid of public transportation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Now, you've heard about memory rescripting, and the question is, why was that helpful to her? Where did she find the courage? to do the thing that she'd been unable to do? And Rhonda and Matt will now give brilliant answers to that question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, I love that. That's a great one. Do you have any hunch on it, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, I think that's it. I love what both of you said, that she experienced herself as a powerful woman, not as a helpless little girl. As a little girl, she was helpless, and she's changing her mindset. and having the chance to feel powerful and to realize that she is powerful. So that, I mean, what a great answer you gave there, Rhonda. You both, you know, were spot on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
She was full of anger and she got the chance to express that anger. And that was a kind of powerful hidden emotion hiding behind her intense anxiety. And often the hidden emotion model will bring about a complete elimination of anxiety, especially in patients who were stuck and unable to completely get rid of their anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Oh, I see. Uh-huh.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And so you gave us a shot in the arm. And if any of you are interested, take a look at the videos because they're some of my best stories. Tearjerker, some of them, and they'll make you laugh. And they have good educational content. and all about Team CBT and how to change the way you think and feel.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Oh, what was their consensus?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, interesting. Yeah, great. Very cool. That's a nice other dimension on that question. But I thought it was a neat question. And thank you, Aaron, for submitting those questions. I really appreciate it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Oh, yeah. I see what you mean.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Oh, yeah. That's a beautiful dimension there also, Matt. I love that. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Well, I'll just frame this a little bit and get you guys answers first. This is a fellow who sounds very angry and entitled, and he's warning us not to give him a particular kind of answer. He's saying, don't say things that others have said to me. But he's saying, I shouldn't have to do this boring work in order to get into law school and become a lawyer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And he spends a lot of time feeling frustrated and pissed off that he should have to do these things that are irrational. And when 80% of law school is going to be irrelevant and won't adequately prepare you for to practice law and all this college stuff too is kind of a load of horse pucky. It's just things I have to go through and I shouldn't have to do this. Is that a good summary?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
But today the idea came up, I want to ask you, Rhonda, that should we, and I don't think we're going to do this, but we had the idea maybe we could play one of the videos on a podcast and then talk about it on a podcast and I don't know. I think they're happy just sitting over there on YouTube on the Feeling Great channel. But, you know, we'd certainly be happy to do that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Okay. So tell us, wise colleagues here, how are we going to respond to him? Because one thing I thought I wanted to tell you, Gray, is that you'll actually learn important things in class about developing resilience for its own sake.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah. Okay. So we're just making fun. Well, you know, David and Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah. I never learned anything in my seven years I spent at the Stanford Medical School and the seven or eight years I spent in residency and research after that. I never learned anything that helps me with patients. Not one thing. How did you plow through it? Well, I just said this is what I have to do if I want to get through medical school and residency.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And I wasn't convinced I wanted to get through medical school and residency. So I dropped out of medical school for a full year on two different occasions. And when I was in medical school, I often skipped most or all of my classes and I would just show up for final exams immediately. you know, study a week before finals and then take my finals. And then I was off again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And meanwhile, I was being a hippie in downtown Palo Alto on the streets of Palo Alto and learning how to live life. And I learned more there than I ever learned in medical school about things that are helping my patients. Like, how do you score when you're orny? Well, I learned that. They never taught me that in medical school or residency.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And that's what a lot of patients wanted to learn how to do. And I was able to teach them, and they appreciated it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah. That won't be helpful to Gray. But what strategies will we have to work with Gray? Here are what you folks think.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, well, that's a good one. He certainly is in a should system. For sure, that's the key distortion in his thoughts. What is your thinking, Rhonda? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
So you're going to tell him what he's actually going to learn is important and sell him on the importance of doing it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
I think you guys are definitely on the right path here. I think to take a page out of your book, Matt, I would start out with empathy and try to see the world through his eyes, although it's hard to avoid getting angry with him because I find him kind of irritating and entitled.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
But he would need someone to see the world through his eyes and side with him, including the fact that maybe you don't want to go through this. You certainly don't have to. And maybe you want to go in a different direction with your life. It's really your choice. And maybe you could use the decision-making tool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
But if he then, you know, still decided he wanted to be a lawyer, and I have no doubt he's going to be a lawyer and a kind of a, An arrogant opponent, I'm sure. Wouldn't want to face him in court. But that you might want to do positive reframing, like what do all these negative thoughts and feelings show about you that's positive and awesome? You know, how strong are all your negative feelings?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, yeah. But in the meantime, if any of you are interested, just go to YouTube and find the Feeling Great channel. And you'll find them all there with the little – they call them thumbnails or something like that and descriptions of them. And lately we've been learning how to use AI to get really cool titles and descriptions for them. So it's been an adventure for us, and thanks so much.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah. and then get into the idea instead of pressing the magic button and making them all disappear as he seems to want, which is not realistic. And maybe these intense feelings show his idealism and his integrity and that he's thoughtful and that he's not just doing what everyone else does. And so maybe that's the kind of guy we need in law school and in the law profession. And
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And he can take pride in his anger and his resentment and his seeing all the holes in the system, because heaven knows there are really problems with the legal profession and with the psychiatric profession as well. And to see if he'd want to kind of dial them down, his negative feelings, maybe from a 100 to 30, and maybe 30 would be enough anger to carry around with you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And then we could come in with methods to talk back to the negative thoughts, which are primarily should statements. And at that phase of the treatment, I'd see if he'd be willing to understand and accept the idea that actually the boring work will never upset him and has never upset anyone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
His entire problem is in his head caused by the negative voice in his head saying, you shouldn't have to do this. You shouldn't have to do this. You're better than this. The universe should make an exception for you. It should be easy. It should be relevant. It should be better than it is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And it's that voice that if you're willing to learn to talk back to it, then you can eliminate much, if not all of these negative feelings. Thank you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Well, yes. Isn't that the same as what we call assessment of resistance and positive reframing and looking at the positive side and the negative side? We could certainly do a paradoxical cost-benefit analysis with an angry person. Say, let's look at all the advantages of your anger and entitlement and statements. And then maybe this isn't something that you'd want to let go of.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
That's another way of dealing with the resistance. And the resistance has to be dealt with at the agenda setting level before you go into the methods. But then if he's willing to get rid of the anger...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
or to reduce it drastically, then you can use externalization of voices, externalization of resistance, you know, identify the distortions, explain the distortions, and all of the regular team CBT methods for crushing negative thoughts. And one last thing is to emphasize the idea when he says, I shouldn't have to do this, he was a therapist, to say, you know the good news? You don't have to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Are you saying you'd prefer not to? Mm-hmm. Let's look at all the reasons not to. And you'll see what you would like to do, what choice you would like to make. But yes, Rhonda, I can remember sitting in the Tressiter Student Union up on the second floor somewhere with my anatomy book, looking at some page with all these pieces of some part of the body there labeled.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
and covering my hand up, seeing if I could remember the names of all of these body parts. And it was just strict memorization, just doing it over and over again until I could get the page right. And hopefully I could remember it the next day when it came time for the exam. But I remember the summer before college, I got a job working in a bank. And I thought I was so lucky.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And I had to, my job was just going through the checks and, you know, one by one and filing them. We filed checks by hands. And so I would sit for three or four hours just filing checks alphabetically in a file system. And I just had to make up games to try to pass the time. But I was basically grateful that I had that job because I was earning a halfway decent salary to help with college.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
That's all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yes. I'm sure he'll put up a fierce defense for you. He'll probably charge you a pretty handsome fee too. Okay. Well, thank you, Gray. And we wish you well in your courageous fight against injustice. And I'm sure you'll have a tremendous career in the future. In law school.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And we hope they will be helpful to people and interesting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Oh, absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah. Yeah. He needs to have a good relationship with his therapist, somebody who likes and admires him and who he likes and admires because he's got the power to sabotage. And anyone, that's what he's hinting to us. Don't do this. Don't do that. That's not going to work. Okay. That's about it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Thanks, Matt. It's always great seeing you and working with you and Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, we can actually demonstrate that. It'll be a really fun thing. And I'll briefly describe it, and then we can bring it to life with a kind of role play. But the way you do it, this is like marital therapy 101. And by 101, I mean it's a very simple technique. You can learn to do it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
You can make it work the first time, and it works like a charm every time, but it's actually not a very sophisticated technique, and it's quite limited. It has some value, but it's definitely not the answer for everyone or maybe even for anyone. But when you're working with a couple, and now this isn't just for therapists because if you're not a therapist, you and your partner or your son or –
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Whoever may want to do this, too, if you're having trouble communicating. But you sit in two chairs facing each other and you have to be in a kind of a quiet room with no TV, no radio, no alcohol. And just to do this, this one minute drill and you take turns. One is the talker and one is the listener.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And if you're the talker first, and you switch roles, so it makes no difference who starts, but you get to say anything you want for about 30 seconds. And when you're talking, your partner will not interrupt you and is not allowed to agree with you or disagree with you, but can take notes on what you're saying and tries only to hear what you're saying and reflect it back as accurately as possible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And after you've expressed yourself and your partner has summarized it, you grade your partner from zero to 100 on how accurately did they understand your thoughts? How accurately did they acknowledge how you're probably feeling from zero to 100? And did they do this in a spirit of respect? And you get your rating from zero to 100. And if your rating is 95 or better, you switch roles.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And now the other person gets to be the talker and you're the listener. That's how it works. But if it's not 95% or better, then you say, what did I get wrong? What did I miss? And then they'll tell you the part that you missed, and then you can summarize that and hopefully get up to 95% once you've done that once or twice. So that's how it works.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And where it has its power is most people, when you have a problem in your family or with a friend or partner, child or neighbor or whatever, you get to arguing and contradicting each other and interrupting each other. And this forces you to be a world-class listener. And when you talk, you know the other person's going to listen and get it right. And that itself is a bit of a miracle.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Now, the technique has a lot of shortcomings as well, but it does have that value. Did I get that right, Matt and Rhonda? Perfectly. Yeah, that sounds great. Let's demonstrate. Let's imagine you two have a turbulent relationship and you're arguing a lot and over-talking each other and that type of thing. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Hello, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
First. Yeah, I just want to point out that you just interrupted me. This is what you do to Matt. You deserve what you get. Okay, so Rhonda, you'll be the talker, and good talker you'll be too, I'm sure. You can say whatever you want for these 30 seconds. And while she's talking, Matt, I want you to – you can take notes if you like, but you're going to be like a court reporter. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And try to understand and hear everything she says, her words and how she's probably feeling. And then when she's done, after 30 seconds, I want you to see if you can paraphrase it and see if you can get a score of 95% or better. Are you ready?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
After you get your 95% score. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, but also acceptance, the idea to be respectful, because if the person says, you never listen, I could say, oh, yeah, you say I never listen. That's exactly how you'd say it too. That's 100% accurate thought empathy, but it's sarcastic and hostile. So you'd get about a zero on that one, even though you've repeated the words.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
So it's to be like a court reporter and to be respectful and to accurately say what the other person said and how they're feeling. And you're not allowed to agree with them. You're not allowed to disagree with them. You just have to get it right. So are you ready?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Well, no, not exactly. But, you know, we'll know when 30 seconds is about done. It's not that literal. OK, Matt. By the way, you listeners can try, too. And that's what I'm going to do. I can take notes on what Rhonda says so I can see if I can get it all. OK, go for it, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And so now ask Rhonda, what grade do you go?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Okay, I would give you about a 75%, Matt. Oh, 75%? Yeah, and Rhonda was very generous with you because while you got her thought empathy, her statements pretty accurately, you only acknowledged one feeling, frustration. And I can guarantee she had at least 10 feelings. Yes. Certainly six, a beginner could come up with six.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Can you tell her, tell Matt what he missed in terms of how you're feeling, Rhonda? Like you might be feeling hurt and sad and lonely and ignored and devalued and, you know, on and on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
And Rhonda, just a question for you, Rhonda, did you feel sad or joyful?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Uh-huh. So we could add that. And did you feel loved or lonely? Lonely. Uh-huh. So we could add that. Uh-huh. And alone. Uh-huh. And any other negative feelings that you were feeling, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, well, you mentioned that irritating. We can add angry. That's a good word, too. Now you can ask Matt to paraphrase again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Yeah, that's beautiful. And that's how it works. Now we can do another round of it, or that might be good enough to illustrate it. And I could tell you what's the strong thing here and what's the weak thing here. And I can also tell you if one of the two partners doesn't follow the rules, what that means. So you want to do another round or should we talk about the technique?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
434: The One-Minute Drill; Memory Rescripting; and More!
Sure. Well, if one of the two partners interrupts and doesn't follow the rules, and that's happened to me, what would that tell you, Rhonda? Yeah. They give you multiple choice, if you like.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, it's motivating. it's a challenging situation to raise a child who has the condition that her daughter has. And so when she's telling herself, I should be a better mom, it's, it's constantly motivating her to be the best caretaker that she could be for her daughter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I imagine that she's revolved her life now around parenting her daughter. And so she has an identity about being a good mom or the best mom. And so that thought, I should be a better mom, you know, keeps her fulfilling that self-identity and that, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I think to a certain at a certain point, could one disadvantage be that she beats up on herself because of that thought? We were saying that one of the disadvantages of having that thought, I should be a better mom, is that she would beat up on herself, leading to feelings of anger and resentment. And what else did you say, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, so Ollie wrote a pretty interesting question. I think we could rift off this for a while. Could team therapy, team CBT therapy be helpful to someone in solitary confinement? Dear David, I'm so glad the app is finally available to the public. I was one of the lucky people who got to take part in the beta testing, and I got to personally experience what a life-changing tool it could be.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So she used the semantic technique.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And then the thing that— Oh, can we read her whole writing? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. So she rewrote that thought. I should be a better mom. And she said, I want to be a mom to my daughter and help her along and invest myself into her. But I also want to treat myself the way I treat her. She has a right to live a happy and fulfilling life, but so do I. Our needs and our desires are equally important and deserve the same attention and care.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I can only continue to look after my daughter well if I look after myself too and take myself and my needs and my desires as seriously as I do hers. There needs to be a get-give balance so that both of us can be healthy and happy and stay healthy and happy. I want to help her to slowly take new steps into independence and support her lovingly along the way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I just hope the word spreads quickly so more people can be transformed by it. Also, do you have any idea when the app might be available outside of the United States? My question for you is around the topic of solitary confinement. As I'm sure you're already aware, solitary confinement is commonly used throughout prisons around the world, despite many deeming it akin to torture.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And not only that, but it's going to be really fun. We're going to be talking about something that we've never talked about ever before.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Okay. So Marvin wrote, what is the best treatment for anxiety and dysthymia? Hello, Dr. Burns. What method of treatment would you suggest for generalized anxiety disorder and for dysthymia?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Would you suggest third wave cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy? What is best based on science? Can you recommend some books, please? Thank you, Marvin.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, you always say we treat people, not diagnoses. So the best treatment would be whatever works best for the person who is experiencing whatever it is they're experiencing in this moment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I would suggest that he start off with the book Feeling Great by David Burns.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I think there is one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Which is exciting. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Mm-hmm. Well, here's our last question for today. Can you do externalization of voices on your own? Hi, David. This is from Owen, and we started off the podcast today with his endorsement. I'm going to repeat it. I'm a longtime listener of your great podcast and a huge fan of your book, Feeling Great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I've often heard you mention that externalization of voices is one of, if not the most powerful CBT techniques. I'm just wondering if it is still almost as effective when done solo without a therapist. For example, if the person takes on both the roles of positive and negative by recording themselves talking or something similar to that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Also, do you have any data comparing the efficacy of Team CBT work carried out solo using the Feeling Great book or your podcast as a guide versus Team CBT performed with a trained team therapist? I'm very much looking forward to the Feeling Great app launch in the United Kingdom, as hopefully that will be a much more effective way to do personal work without a therapist. Many thanks, Owen.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, and also one step first, one step before that is if you've identified the negative thoughts of the moment in time when you're struggling and then, you know, actually do some agenda setting with yourself where you ask yourself, what are the feelings say about you that are awesome or speak to your core values or what are the thoughts say about you that somehow give you a benefit or an advantage?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And you go through that and you can see that maybe you don't,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
want to give them up completely because they are meeting some kind of a need and and that can be a fun process to do by yourself and an enlightening process to do by yourself as well as a therapist i i had some family visiting over the weekend for the fourth of july when you know right after which is when we're recording this podcast and And part of it didn't go so well on Sunday.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I felt a little depressed. And I learned from Maryland Coffee to fill out brief mood surveys and daily mood logs by myself and go through the whole process of positive reframing before I start trying to talk back to my negative thought. And it makes it a much more fulfilling and successful process.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
My core negative thought is I don't matter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Okay. Sorry to tell you, Matt, but you're worthless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Who won that, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So is that a small or a large win?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Wow, I'm feeling really hurt and angry that you said that. And I'm curious, it's such a broad statement. Am I worthless all the time? Is there something specific about what I've done that has little value? I'm feeling like it's confusing and in general... It's really hard to relate to that. So could you be more specific about what it is that you're accusing me of?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, I think it could have been stronger a little.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I don't matter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I want you to attack me with a negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
That is so true. And it's such a great, humbling experience to accept that and to realize that I'm the same as everyone else. And it's a relief and it takes a lot of pressure off me. So yippee.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
That felt really good. And that felt like a win.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
A huge win.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
You know what? The truth is I matter to certain people. I matter to Matt and David, and I matter to my husband and my children. I matter to my friends, and I matter to myself. But I don't feel like I have to pressure myself to be any better than anyone else or to matter any more than other people matter. And it is honestly a relief to feel that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
To let go of the striving to matter in general in all ways to all people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I won.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Totally.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
See you later, then. Okay, bye-bye. Thanks so much, Ron and David. Goodbye, everybody. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
We welcome your comments and questions. If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I don't believe you're allowed to have a cell phone in prison. So it wouldn't be appropriate to use the app in prison or to think that that's possible. But people are allowed to have books.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And I think someone who has a book, the Feeling Great book, and can follow along the team therapy structure and learning how to identify their thoughts, leading them to change their feelings and their behavior would be very, very, very helpful. for anyone in prison, wherever they are in the prison system.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And there are a lot of people who have been wrongly convicted and then released from prison and written books about their experience. And I put three on the show notes that you wrote that I've read that were pretty transformative. And most of the people, most of the time when people are in prison, they are trying to
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Hello, David, and hello, Matt May. Hello to all of our listeners throughout the world and throughout the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast, and you're listening, or you're about to listen, to episode 412. We're doing another Ask David today, and...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And change the way they're thinking about their experience so that they can accept it and maintain some hope of when they are going to be released and belief in their lawyer, belief in the process, belief in themselves so that they can still maintain a sense of who they are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
People do have access to computers. And if so, if you could make the app available on a computer, then maybe somebody could use their computer time and work on the app when it's their turn, especially if you can have one file for each person that's confidential that other people can't get into.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So let's jump over to Susanna, who asked, what's a give-get imbalance and how can you get over it? So here's a description of Susanna's problem. Susanna is a woman with a grown daughter who has severe brain damage due to a severe brain infection, viral encephalitis, when she was an infant. Susanna was constantly giving herself... giving of herself and catering to her daughter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
She explains that her daughter can be very demanding and throws tantrums to get her way and kind of controls the entire house this way, the entire home. She can only talk a little and has the vocabulary of about a two and a half year old. She can mostly express the things she wants or doesn't want on a very basic level. She mostly understands what I want from her
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
but mostly does not want to do what I ask her to do. She can be very stubborn and I cannot reason with her because she has her own logic. And in her eyes, only her logic is valid. Maybe all a little bit like a two and a half year old.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Susanna struggles with negative feelings, including guilt, anxiety, and depression because she is constantly giving, giving, giving, and feeling exhausted and resentful. And she tells herself, I should be a better mom. David, you asked, can you spot any distortions in her thought, I should be a better mom?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So we're asking the listeners to turn their devices off, write down what they think are the cognitive distortions in the thought, I should be a better mom. And then after they've written off what they believe are the distortions and why those are distortions, turn back their device and start listening again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, clearly, it's a should statement. She's shoulding on herself, right? Why don't we like should statements? Because they're commands and they're ways of beating ourselves up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Let's go back and forth. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I see overgeneralization, that she's taking one moment in time when she's feeling frustrated and tired and not getting the result that she wants and blowing that up and saying, I'm always a bad mom.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
We're going to follow up on what we started last week. Some of our questions are related to self-esteem. I'm going to read someone's endorsement and then go back to their question. Owen wrote us something really simple. He just said, I am a longtime listener of your great podcast and a huge fan of your book, Feeling Good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
It seems kind of obvious that it's both magnification and minimization.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
She's minimizing the incredible good mothering that she's doing, and she's magnifying any errors or mistakes or challenges that she's having.