Dr. David Burns
Appearances
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I am not learned enough to remember that. No, he did.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Gosh, David, I really appreciate your honesty.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, I have an endorsement about that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
So this fellow, Brian, sends me very short messages about the podcast every once in a while. And he was talking to me about episode 410, which was What is the Purpose of Life that we published on August 19th. And he sent me just this really short thing saying, this was an awesome podcast today. The last 10 minutes especially were great. And I can't wait until the next one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I don't remember, but it was good, I guess.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, I know what that feels like. All right. Here's question number two. How can I make myself accountable for doing the exercises in your books? Again, somebody said, it's good to have Fabrice back. And that's relating to episode 407, which we were just talking about. Regarding your books, I have a question. I have trouble holding myself accountable doing the exercises in the book.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Do you have any advice on how to prioritize doing the homework and being disciplined with it? How did other depressed people get better using your books? I've already filled out multiple notebooks, but I appear to be stuck. Any help is appreciated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
So can I just be clear? So you're framing what he's saying as holding himself accountable to doing homework is the same thing as? holding himself accountable not to procrastinate or to overcome his procrastination?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Wait, and I have one more I want to bring.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Okay, want me to dive in?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I loved everything Matt said. I would say you don't have to do any homework. You don't have to do the exercise in your book. In any of David's books, one thing that he or she, I don't know who it is, could do is make a list of all the good reasons not to do homework. all the advantages of not doing homework and all the disadvantages of not doing homework.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And then take a look at which list seemed like it carries more weight. Or you could ask yourself the triple paradox questions. What are all the advantages of not doing homework? What are all the disadvantages of changing that and doing homework? And what does not doing homework say about him that's super awesome? And take a look at that list and That's a little bit more complicated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And this is about the first philosophy...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Then you could start challenging some of those reasons that you've listed in those three categories.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
episode which was 407 that was on is the is there a self and that was the one that had fabrice nye with us and ed wrote us and ed is a frequent writer and we really appreciate when ed writes his comments and he said dear dr david i just want to let you know how good i believe your last couple of podcasts have been i especially enjoyed the one with fabrice nye episode 407 on is there a self
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
It brought back memories of when I first discovered you all. I submitted comments to this effect on the webpage, but I also want to contact you directly. Best regards always, Ed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I'm set.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
You said you want to ask, is the person willing to pay the price?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
What's the price?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
The price of sitting down to do the work when you don't really feel like it? Is that the price?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I was thinking, like, when you face an anxiety, like, David, you talked about facing your blood phobia when you were an intern. And I've been working with Werner Spitzfaden on my driving phobia. And to me, the price is going forward with the task, even though I feel uncomfortable physically.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Okay, Holly asks if the concept of having a personality is the same as the question of having a self. And she said a lot of things. She said, thank you for the video and I assume also the podcast on this topic. And it was really clear to me. It's a shame that the chapter of your Feeling Great book was removed because to me this philosophical point
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
is one important tool among the many techniques that you propose to get rid of negative thinking and to heal.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
That's interesting. I think we'll probably be talking about that soon on another podcast. So going back to Holly, she wrote, what you said about the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual is refreshing, and I agree with you. You said schizophrenia and bipolar I are mental disorders, and you explained why. But what would be a third disorder? Psychopathology? Psychopathy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
So she continued that it would be really nice if you did another video where you dug into this topic. Your voice on it is really important and what the APA is doing is really concerning and other psychiatrists disagree with the business of labeling people. She's saying that she believes that you're right. It's detrimental to human beings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
There's another psychological concept that you didn't talk about, however, but who looks similar to the self, which is the personality. What is your take on it? Is the self the same or different from the personality? And lastly, now in the spiritual domain, is the notion of the soul the same for you than the self?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Or in your opinion, could it be a possibility of an essential part of us which links us all to the spirit, to spirituality? I'm looking forward to watching other philosophical videos. Holly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Oh, because I'm trying not to make noise and I'm taking notes and I'm aware that I'm taking notes. I mean I'm making noise while I'm taking notes. That's all. I'm grimacing because of me, not you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, the intensive was magnificent. You were on top of your game. You had lots of really fun stories to tell. It was very inspiring. It was fun that you taught with Jill because she also added specific details. And it was great that the two of you played off each other, taught back and forth with each other. You did a really great example of offering personal work to someone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Robin Williams.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
OK, that's good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Me too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, one thing that they all have in common is they're all immortal. Right. So like when you die, your soul dies and your personality. And if there is a self, which we don't think there is, will also die.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
why I added that it's just you know like when you've seen a dead body you know that their soul which I don't I haven't that often because Jews actually don't believe in open caskets so but anyway you know clearly when someone has passed away they do not you can't feel a soul any longer
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Like that emotional, I don't know if it's emotional or spiritual energy, but the energy that's named, that's given the sounds and the syllable of soul seems to have left.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
who I believe are going to publish the personal work on the podcast pretty soon. Oh, good. And then pretty much everybody had a very positive experience learning how to apply the Team CBT model on Saturday evening. And I believe that all of the feedback scores that you got,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Good point. That's powerful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
All right. So the headline for this question would be, Could questions about the self and free will involve all or nothing thinking? Hi, I'd like to tell you about my experience with my son. He is 14 years old, and despite our honest attempts not to label, he has always been the problem child, selfish, disobedient, etc. Recently, we started him on Prozac, and the changes have been incredible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
from the participants on all of the days were extremely high and they got higher as the intensive went on um it was for me as someone that was it was like the 10th one i've gone to it was always it was inspiring and rejuvenating so i loved being there
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Things that have been way beyond his best times are now simple, like going to sleep on time or having a good time with his brother. Every night, my wife and I tell each other about some new miracle. So I wonder what you can say about this from the lens of free will.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
An obvious conclusion would be that the choices he made until now were not free because his brain was not presenting him with the same set of choices that other kids experience. On the other hand, if he's acting better now, we could say that it is not his choice. It's just a pill making the decision for him. I feel like that would be insulting and degrading.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I wonder if a lot of resistance to therapy, and especially psychopharmacotherapy, is related to anxiety about the question, if I can be changed by a pill, then who am I? I had another thought after listening to the episode on self. The position that self doesn't exist seems extreme to me, maybe like all or nothing thinking. Maybe we could answer that question with the magic dial.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
How much do we agree that there are selves and free wills? I agree that there are problems associated with having a self and free will, but I think there are practical and theoretical reasons on the other side as well. Maybe the golden path is in the middle.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
What do you think of this person?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
My thinking is this topic is over my head. And it would be a good thing for me to not add anything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I am a little curious because you both have strong opinions about psychopharmacology. What do you think about the question, if I can be changed by a pill, then who am I?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, we also don't know what other factors could be. We don't know enough about what's going on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I think it'll intrigue people even more. And the thing I meant when I said we don't know all of the conditions or everything that's happening in this family is that there could be lots of other things going on that we don't know about. Exactly. Did he change therapists? Is it a school situation? Did his brother change? Toward him, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I mean, there's so many other things going on that I'd want to know about before I make a judgment. But I love what you both said. And you both have so much experience with medication.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
That is interesting. Actually, fascinating.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Thank you. And I have two more things to talk about today. Recently, Phil Donahue died, David, and I wanted to get your reaction to that because I know you were on Phil Donahue briefly when your book Feeling Good came out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, that's an amazing story. And we also wanted to have the opportunity to introduce our sound and video technician who has saved the day many times with our struggling technology. And that's Max Cosma, who just joined us. Hi, Max.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Which we take.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, and people came from all over the world. There was people there from Australia, from Switzerland, from Canada. I can't remember where else, but people were— Well, there were even some from San Francisco. San Francisco! Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, people came from – but also people came from New Jersey and San Diego, like throughout the country and around the world.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Sure. So let's start with question number one, which is not really a question. It was a comment that someone made on Reddit that we thought was worthy of a response. And the summary is that, you know, somebody wrote that your comments on the self were shallow, mocking and restless. And what he wrote was the recent episode on Do I Have a Self, which was actually episode 407.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
were very shallow and mocking of people who thought there was a soul or self. Given a soul is a prerequisite for most religions, dismissing it out of hand without meaningful discussion seems reckless. And I just want to say before you answer it that often I read these endorsements which are pretty glowing of you and the podcast and the work that you do and so we also appreciate these kinds of
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Communications with us that are more challenging. You know, we want to show all of people's thoughts and feelings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
You kind of sound like the giant fee-fi-fo-fum. Anyway, hi, David, and hello, Matt, and welcome to all of our listeners around the world and throughout the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good Podcast, and it's episode 416. And because Matt's here, you know it's another Ask David episode.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
You're such a great role model, Matt. I really appreciate everything that you said. And I, I have to agree with you that I think I also was kind of mocking and these philosophy podcasts, a lot of it went over my head and I felt a little pressure to add things when I caught, I would probably would have been better for me to just keep nodding and saying, uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I, I could have, um, you know, as a Jewish person, I often find like I, I'm taking another online class and the person scheduled two of the dates on pretty significant Jewish holidays. And I thought, oh, you know, it's just sort of something I'm used to because people don't pay attention to Jewish holidays the way they do to other holidays.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I felt kind of left out and that there was a shallowness. And so I really related to this person's comment that if we said anything that was disrespectful to any religion or any spiritual belief system, that I feel a ton of regret about that and also feel sad and unhappy and a little irritated with myself for participating in that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I'm thankful that they brought this up so that we can, you know, like repair this and talk about it and, you know, encourage them to keep listening to and keeping us on our toes because it's really helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
It's interesting because the familiarity with meditation was in the 60s. You said the finishers, it was 69%, and it was still in the 60s but lower, right, for the non-finishers?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
What do you make of that, Jason? So this group of people are fairly familiar with meditation, and yet they have this idea, this thought, that 25% of the non-finishers and 11% of the finishers thought that meditation would be painful or difficult. 13% of the non-finishers thought that it would make them feel worse. And that 26%, which seems pretty high, that it would be a complete waste of time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And my guess is that people who are familiar with meditation would not fall into those belief systems.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Right. I find that surprising.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yep.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So Jason, are you looking at the non-finishers as your control group, kind of?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
It's a good start.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Wait, Jason, what was it called?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
After each one?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And they're doing one meditation at a time consecutively?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I know. I want to be a member of that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I love these different choices, Jason. Four of them are all about internal, your body, counting your breath. paying attention to your breath and the things around you, thinking, breathing, hearing, planning, experiencing. And then the one, the loving kindness is focusing outward, like sending out loving kindness to, you do do it toward yourself, but you're sending it out towards others.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And then the do nothing meditation, I guess, fits its own separate category. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
55.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Not surprising to me is that the biggest drop was after the loving-kindness meditation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Right, right, right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yes, absolutely, yeah. I wasn't paying attention to that. I was hypothesizing about loving kindness, so I zeroed in on that. But you're right, that's the biggest change, an immediate change. Yeah. Super interesting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
That is the big question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Or because it was relaxing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I imagine that the last one, the do nothing meditation, runs the risk of obsessionally thinking about your negative thought. Like with the body scan and the counting and the loving kindness meditation and even with the Vipassana where you're paying attention to what's going on internally and externally. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
You have that 10-minute break from your thought that you described, like you're separating yourself from the break. But the do-nothing meditation where you're doing nothing, it seems to me that could be inviting yourself to obsess about the negative thought and bring that back up. And that's why I think it's really interesting that with that fifth meditation, things stayed pretty much the same.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Like there really wasn't much of an improvement with that fifth meditation. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
On average.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
No, you go for it. I just asked one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Okay, great. So now that you've defined that, Do you remember your question?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And how did you come up with that time, 10 minutes?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Jason, do you want to answer that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I have thoughts about that too, but you go first.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Hello, David, and hello to all of our listeners around the country, around the world, and throughout the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast, episode 420, and we were lucky enough to have Jason Minow back as our very special guest.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, and can I take a stab at answering their question, David?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So when I started meditating a long time ago, I definitely had the expectation it would be good for me. And that's why I started. People around me said, oh, you should meditate. It's really good for you. It's really good for you. And so that's why I started. And in the beginning, I was bored and I felt angry a lot. And I had a lot of adverse feelings come up like, why am I doing this?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
This is really dumb. I don't think this is helping. But also I had a lot of negative, yucky feelings come up that didn't feel good. But then because of that expectation, this is good for me, I had the motivation to continue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And the more I continued, like practicing a musical instrument or practicing any kind of a TMCBT technique, the more I practiced it, the better I got at it and the more calm I could be as a result of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I think that's a really good way to describe it. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And then they just and then they fade away.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
That's you generally as a whole, Jason, from your years of meditating, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And this is completely anecdotal. I wish I could have been a part of your study. But to me, it's really hard. I can't see... in my own personal experience that meditation has any effect on my negative thoughts, but it does have an effect on helping me feel calmer. And I would tend to be in the group of people that are at risk to ruminate on negative thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So I have to really fight against that. And so that like the, the do nothing meditation would probably be more damaging to me than guided meditation. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, and Max wanted me to ask you a question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Could it simply be the choice to engage in a practice for betterment that caused the improvement?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And that's kind of the pleasure predicting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I'll pay more attention to the wording. Could it be simply the choice to engage in a practice for betterment that caused the improvement?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So, and Jason, how did you find the subjects there are the subjects, the people who did it, they were all members of the new cool tools club.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Well, David, were we thinking of inviting a Buddhist monk, a Jewish rabbi, a Muslim imam, and Christian spiritual leaders so that we could have a bunch of different perspectives?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Okay. Well, thank you, Jason, so much for coming on to the podcast and explaining about your experiment. And Jason, are you looking for more people to become members of your new cool tools club?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
This has been another episode of the feeling good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Did you ask the 25 people why they dropped out?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And today is going to be a monumental podcast because we're going to hear a shift in David's thinking based on his favorite topic, research. And our topic today is really awesome. It's on team and negative thoughts and the mindfulness mystery. So let me turn it over to you, David and Jason, and you can tell us about your research and what you've done.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, really? That was the question? A complete waste of time?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
To the right of it. I'm sorry. Yes, to the right of it. To the left edge of the paper. Then if you go to the left, you'll be writing it on your desk. And you can do that too if you like.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yep. All right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And quick, quick comment on that. Thank you, John, for that beautiful comment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And that is true, that when you do the positive reframing skillfully, and we've been checking this out in AI because we can see now exactly where people change and a lot of improvement, not all the improvement, but a lot of improvement and negative feelings does occur during positive reframing that the AI is doing with you. And of course, if you try the AI that we sent you free.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It'll do it pretty skillfully with you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It was like the questions that I read, that we read just a couple minutes ago, right? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. Yeah. She's such a gem and a brilliant and kindly person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
What I love about what you're saying right now is that there's a discovery that happens, and it's often an unexpected discovery when you're doing positive reframing. And if you're just doing it in a formulaic way, it doesn't work. It's like anything else. It looks like a simple tool, but, you know, like I guess taking a knife to a piece of wood and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's simple, but some people can do that and make beautiful carvings and other people just like me, I would just be cutting up the piece of wood and it wouldn't look like anything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you one other thing. I love what you're saying, and I share your feelings and your convictions. And just within the last week, Jason Minow is our AI guy. He's the one who's actually doing the programming with the AI team. But I help him and we work together and provide feedback. And he's created a new form of AI, which I call multi-level.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And what we can now do with our AI, and it's a new version of positive reframing. Instead of telling you how we do it, let me say that... And you might want to test out the new version with Jason as soon as he's ready for a beta test. But it actually listens during positive reframing for the resistance of the user or the patient.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And we trained it to what to look for to find out if it's not working for the patient. Like exactly what your question was, what if it's just not turning you on, the positive reframing? And we taught it how to turn that resistance into instant understanding of positive reframing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Like the very resistance, you know, you can ask a couple questions about the person who's resisting and all of a sudden they're into positive reframing on that deeper level. So I hope this doesn't sound too grandstanding or overly dramatic, as you mentioned in your paragraph, in your beautiful note.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But it's trying to make that gift to everyone, because that's where a lot of the healing power lies, for sure. And it's not what I was trained in when I was learning cognitive therapy. It didn't exist at that time, but it exists now. And it's like having... supercharged cognitive therapy, or what I say, cognitive therapy on steroids is another way of putting it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And we are trying to bottle that gift as effectively as humanly possible or non-humanly possible with AI.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I think so. And my only request to the world is if you can maybe from time to time, if you've got your own website or your own whatever, to acknowledge where some of this came from. Mm-hmm. because I remember when I wrote Feeling Good, I was so grateful for having learned a lot from Aaron Beck. And even though we didn't have all the answers, he sure knew a hell of a lot more than I did.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And so I referred to him, I think, I went through the book and counted 38 references to Aaron Beck, and they were all in a flattering context. And And I remember when I sent Feeling Good to Albert Ellis, because I had just met him and I thought, well, maybe I could get an endorsement from him.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, that's so neat. Thanks, Dan. You really warm my heart. I sent that to all the members of our app team, especially Jason Minow, who's done so much groundbreaking work in developing our version of AI and training the AI. And it's just so gratifying to see that it's caught your fancy. And if there's any listeners out there who want to support us,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then he wrote back and said, well, I wouldn't mind giving you an endorsement, but you didn't give me any. And maybe you would want to acknowledge that cognitive therapy was actually developed from my work in the 1950s, often without acknowledgement. And he gave me a lot of references to his first book, Reason and Emotion in Psychotherapy. And I saw that he was exactly right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So then I acknowledged him, too, at the beginning of Feeling Good as one of the forerunners, one of the incredibly important historic figures. And I always appreciated him after that. And he always appreciated my work. by acknowledging him, as so many people stole from him, like Wayne Dyer with his book, Your Erroneous Zones. It was a multi-million number one bestseller.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But it's just someone went to one of Alice's workshop, Wayne Dyer did, and was turned on. I think it was a weekend workshop. And then he just wrote it all up as if it was his own. And he was a good con man. And he, you know, wrote very persuasively and he was very charming on interviews. But he did not acknowledge the contributions of...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You know, Albert Ellis, and I once asked Albert Ellis, don't you get mad at people like Wayne Dyer who steal from you without acknowledging? And he says, you know, he was a New Yorker, so he talked like this. He says, no, I never got angry. And I said, well, why is that, Dr. Ellis?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Why don't you get angry at the people who are ripping you off and stealing your ideas and pretending like they're your own? And he said, well, I'll tell you why, David, because those people are assholes. And that's what assholes are supposed to do. They should do that. Asshole, you should expect assholes to steal. And I thought that was a funny response. I never...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
believed him 100% that he never got angry because he was actually a pretty angry guy. But I loved him. And we all owe so much to his fantastic contributions to the field. So if you think my contributions have significance, you know, it doesn't hurt to let people know because I, like Albert Ellis, appreciate being acknowledged.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And let's skip the second paragraph.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, I'll give a quick answer, then we'll get an answer from Rhonda, and then we'll do some role-playing techniques and demonstrate the response. But let me first say that we have had podcasts on what a 49-year-old lady suffering from a red face can do. And there are podcasts, number 88, called Role-Play Techniques, Feared Fantasy Revisited. And podcast 168, The Blushing Cure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You know, go to feelinggreat.com, not my website, which is feelinggood.com. Go to feelinggreat.com and you can check it out there or go to either of the app stores, the Apple Store or the Google Play Store. Our app is in there, Feeling Great, and you can take a free ride on it and see what you think.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And there'll be links in the show notes or you can go to my website, feelinggood.com. And there's a list of all of our podcasts with links to them. So you can link to those. But to give the answer to you in a nutshell is your problem, and this is just self-help on this show. We can't treat you or prescribe anything or tell you what to do or what not to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But to my way of thinking, your problem results 100% from non-self-acceptance. You're trying to hide or control yourself. you're blushing and you're profuse sweating. And I've treated many people who blush and sweat profusely. And I know how to help people get over it and we'll demonstrate it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But the key involves accepting the fact that you blush, that this is one of the things that your body does. And none of your anxiety comes from your sweating or from your blushing, but from distorted thoughts about it. And we'll show you how to crush those thoughts in just a minute. But I love your question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I'm so glad that you wrote to us because there's a lot of people out there right now listening at this very moment who are trying so hard to fix this thing that's wrong with them or that thing that's wrong with them. And whereas the actual, that's the actual problem that you keep trying to fix yourself, thinking that you're not good enough, where the solution is self-acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And I've often said, and no one yet has understood it, everyone thinks they understand it, but they don't. But self-acceptance is the greatest change a human being can make. Self-acceptance, accepting yourself exactly as you are with all your sweat and all your bright red face, red as a clown's red lipsticks, accepting that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's not giving in, but it's transforming your life because self-acceptance is the greatest change a human being can make. And the moment you accept yourself, everything will change. But back to you, Rhonda. We'll give you a chance to respond to this, and then we can do a little fantasy role play if you like.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I don't recommend that one, actually. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
No, because you're forcing people into an awkward position of thinking they have to cheer you up in some lame manner and insist that they're not turned off. And think of people who are honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there's ways to do it that get around that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, great. Great. Okay. And feared fantasy is a form of exposure and shame attacking. Okay, let's do that. Yeah, okay. And do you want to be the blusher or the blushee? One of us can be the stranger from hell, and one will play the role of Anne. I want to play the role of Anne. Okay. And let's say we've just met, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And if you find it helpful and exciting, tell your friends and colleagues about it, too, because you're our marketing team right now. And we're relying on word of mouth to get the word out that there's something really exciting that can help you change the way you think and feel and can happen very rapidly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And I'm gonna be the person who says all the things that you believe others are thinking, but would never dare to say. And we do it, that's what the feared fantasy technique is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
This isn't practice for real life, because people don't say these things to you in real life, but we're helping you get over your fear in a kind of a fantasy land, the Alice in Wonderland nightmare world, where your worst fears do come true. And if you like what we're doing or want to understand it better, you can go to those two podcasts and it'll be explained further.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But tell me what your name is. Like we're just meeting and I'll be the stranger from hell, the one that Anne has always feared. I'm Joan. Joan. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My name's David. Could I ask you a question, Joan?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I noticed that when we met, your face has just turned bright red, and you look as red-faced as a clown, all covered with red lipstick or something. And I can see little beads of perspiration and sweat forming on you. Is there something wrong with you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, I think that's disgusting. Yeah. Oh, wow.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Okay, goodbye. Okay, bye. Okay, who won, would you say? I won. No, how big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, that was pretty cool. Now, one thing is you escaped through avoidance, and that's, of course, the cause of all anxiety, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. You were like telling the person to get lost. And it was kind of cool because you were sticking up for yourself. But I'll show you. And probably my comment just now wasn't entirely accurate. But I'll show you a slightly different style.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, really? You're grossed out? I've been sweating like this, proudly sweating, since I was five years old and blushing. But it seems like it's disgusting to you, and I'm sorry because I didn't mean to upset you. Can you tell me more? what's disgusting about it because once you get to know me better, you'll see that this is one of my lesser flaws.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Actually, I have tons of shortcomings, but tell me what, why is it, is it upsetting to you that my face is red and that I'm sweating?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Right. Right. But the people often resist enlightenment. That's been the Buddha's problem 2,500 years ago and ever since when he's gotten reincarnated over and over in different individuals. He keeps noticing that people don't want to do the very thing that will give them enlightenment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And the Buddha found that frustrating 2,500 years ago, and still he finds it frustrating in many of his current incarnations. But the reason that people are afraid is you think that acceptance is the same as giving up or giving in and that something terrible is going to happen. And so you think you have to change yourself in some way to be special, to be lovable, to be worthwhile.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And that's the cause of your misery. And that's the distortion that's causing your pain. Your pain never came from blushing. Your pain came from your own lack of self-acceptance, your own self-criticism. Other people's criticisms of you could never upset you unless you buy into them. And then it's your own thoughts that you're believing that's upsetting you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
No, that's not right. It's all about David. Yes, it's all about trying to help get the word out to more people who are suffering that these are some tools that you can use to actually change the way you think and feel. And there's the little chat box. which will talk to you in much the same way I would be talking to you in an actual therapy session. It's not actual therapy. It's a self-help tool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So let's do a couple more role reversals to see if we can drive this home. Could I talk to you for a minute, Rhonda, or whatever your name is?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Your face just turned bright red. Are you blushing?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, that's a childish thing to do. That's ridiculous for a grown adult to be blushing. Do you realize how silly and ridiculous you look right now? I mean, everybody, come and look at this woman. Her face is as bright as a stoplight. It's red, bright red.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, yeah. I have a friend who works for the Palo Alto Times newspaper. And I'm going to mention to them, you know, so they can run an article on you and how ridiculous you are with a grown woman blushing and sweating for no reason at all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, it's just abnormal. You're abnormal. I don't blush. I don't associate with people who blush. None of my friends blush. They're all very confident and courageous people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's one of my qualities, just like talking to you. I would rather go to the direction as, you know, blushing is just one of my many flaws. Yeah, one of my many flaws. And if you get to know me, you'll find out that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Because, you know, you can't... change yourself with bullshit that you don't believe. Do you think Anne believes that blushing is one of her strengths?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. To me, that's vastly more powerful. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's a little thing on blushing. Now, how are we doing? That was fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, yeah. And yeah, it was a great. Yeah, I love this. You know, when you folks send us questions, we have to scratch our heads and figure out how we're going to answer them. And it helps us with our learning. And we hope our answers help you with your learning too. Yeah. And should we call it a day?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
No, but let's take question number five, which is a short one that we won't get bogged down in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I'll give you first dibs, which I should always be doing on these questions, and then I'll give you my answer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
We're not involved in doing therapy, but we do want to help you with your negative feelings and do that rapidly. So check it out, the Feeling Great podcast. in the stores, the app stores, or just go to feelinggreat.com and learn all about it. And let me know what you think, and we'll read your responses on the show. Yeah, that's fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I don't know. What do you think? Well, it's close to that. When I first was learning cognitive therapy and I developed externalization of voices where you do, you know, as you're so familiar, the intensive role play back and forth, hitting each other with the patient's negative thoughts. They attack me. I attack them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
In the early days, often they'd have some thought that I couldn't help them answer within the session. So they might have the idea. I remember a woman I was working with, and she became an appendix in the book, Intimate Connections, because she believed that she was just average. There was nothing special about her. And she was a clinical social worker, and she was unmarried.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And she said, I don't have a husband. I just have an ordinary job. I just have an ordinary intelligence. So there's nothing special about me. And that's a fact. So in reality, not an especially worthwhile human being. And we did role playing back and forth for four full hours, not all at once, an hour a week for four weeks.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And neither one of us could figure the answer to it, how to accept this about yourself and still feel happy. And then it hit her halfway through the fifth session and she became enlightened. And we saw it suddenly at the same time. And that happened to me all the time. I would leave a session thinking, gosh, this person thinks they're worthless. And I think they're worthless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So they probably are worthless. How am I going to help them? Would you really think they were worthless? Oh, yeah. I got hypnotized by every patient. It still happens at the beginning of their work. Every depressed person tries to convince me that they're hopeless and worthless. They're the one who can't get better. And they're very good. They're brilliant debaters.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And they used to persuade me all the time. And it would take a day or two after the session, I'd say, ah, that's where they were getting distorted. And then I'd see them the next time. I'd say, I think I figured it out. And then they'd get it. And then they'd feel better. But cognitive therapy and its new inheritance team, CBT, look simple, but they're not. They're very sophisticated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
These are the most challenging forms of psychotherapy ever created.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And they require a certain deep discovery, a certain deep understanding that transforms your life. And I used to and still do. You know, I wake up in the middle of the night with answers to questions I didn't have when I went to sleep.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And often the questions when I was in clinical practice seeing 6, 8, 10, 12 or more people in a single day, I'd have a lot of them that I couldn't figure out how to talk back to their negative thoughts. And then it would occur to me. I mean, effectively, see, the positive thought has to be 100 percent true and it has to drastically reduce your belief in your negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
That's the necessary and sufficient condition for emotional change. The necessary condition is you have to combat your negative thought, like I'm a loser, with a positive thought that's 100% true. A half-truth will never work. But in addition, the positive thought has to totally crush the negative thought and suddenly see that it's garbage. You see your belief and it goes down to 5% or 10% or 0%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And that's the sufficient condition for emotional change. And so... If you don't get a mood boost until a couple days after doing, say, a daily mood log, well, that happened to me every time when I was inventing. Team CBT and refining cognitive therapy. One day was called cognitive therapy. And I had exactly the same experience.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then as I got older, it got to where I could figure out the effect of positive responses just like right away after doing it for 40, 50 years or however many years I've been doing it. And so that's my interpretation. It isn't quite what you said, Rhonda, which is that you talked about something kind of wearing off or something like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, you get an insight as to why your negative thought is screwed up. And the very moment you have that insight and you can actually see it. So it's as obvious as the fact right now I can see that there's skin on my hands and there's no doubt about that. And the moment you get it with that degree of clarity in that very instant, your feelings will change. And that could very well happen.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
A couple of days after you've been working and that just shows you have a brain just like mine, that you have a nice subconscious mind that works overtime for you when you're not thinking about it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, it took us five hours together.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You have to buy my book, Intimate Connections, and read the appendix to find out because I can't remember right now. But again, the answer to it is it's the same as what we've been telling people in today's podcast. The problem is not that she isn't good enough. What is her problem, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, she's beating up on herself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Now, let me ask you, let's say that she's going to pick up her child at school. And she finds out her child is out playing with other children on the swings and things. Would she go out into the schoolyard and go up to those children one at a time and say, gee, the way you're swinging is just average. That's not Olympic quality. There's nothing special about you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Why not?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
That's the point. You know, happiness comes from self-love. And self-love is a decision you make, not something you can earn. And that's a Christian concept. I don't know if it's also a Jewish concept or... or an Islamic concept, but the Christian idea is that you don't get to heaven through your good works, but from the grace of God.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And the grace of God is the grace of a colleague who treats you in a loving way, or the grace you give yourself to treat yourself in a loving and compassionate way. And that's the meaning of God. Exactly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. And keep sending us your great questions because we really love answering your questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, John has given us many great questions and two questions for today's podcast. And this is the first of the two. And I'll spout out my quick answer and then get your input on that. But when I wrote Feeling Good, and that was 1978 I started writing it, and it was published in 1980.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
One of the things that I did that was very important was to say, a lot of you reading this book, if you do the written exercises, you'll probably be able to get a real mood boost on your own, even without a therapist. But at the same time, it's really easy to get stuck. And in that case, two heads are often better than one. And there's no shame in going to a therapist to help you get unstuck.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And so I feel exactly the same way today. If you can use, say, my book, Feeling Great, or our new Feeling Great app, the odds are high that you'll be able to get some genuine change in the way you think and feel just by doing the exercises in the book or the exercises in the app. But sometimes it takes two heads to help you figure out why you're stuck and how to get unstuck.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And so, you know, I strongly encourage you to seek help, particularly if you're having severe symptoms or struggling with suicidal thoughts or fantasies. You definitely need to have face-to-face help. And you still might love the app or you still might love my books and find them helpful. But sometimes a human therapist is absolutely necessary.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
necessary for you to be treated safely and effectively. My books aren't therapy and the app is not therapy. It's just self-help. And finally, you asked the really cool question, well, why do therapists, why are we therapists screwed up as our own patients? That's the question really that you're trying to ask. Because when we have therapists on as patients, I do that because
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's not considered therapy, and I'm no longer in clinical practice, but I do demonstration sessions with real people to show you how the techniques work with real people. But it's always easier to see how someone else's thoughts are distorted and have a blind spot about where we're fooling ourselves, even if you are a therapist.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And that's why even therapists sometimes, I would say frequently, need a little bit of TLC and help from a friend, in this case, David and Jill, or sometimes David and Rhonda working together to help you change the way you think and feel. And now Rhonda is going to give another extraordinarily important point.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. And that moves us to John's second question, which is all about positive reframing. And we can maybe mention what there's actually three or four or five questions you can ask yourself when you're doing positive reframing. But let's read the question and tell people what positive reframing is and then answer John's question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Should we answer that question first? Yeah. Before we go on, I think that can be answered by doing a paradoxical cost-benefit analysis. And you can make a list of all the advantages and benefits of ignoring. Well, first of all, positive reframing isn't about your positive points. Or your positive qualities. That's called cheerleading, and everyone resists cheerleading.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So the reason you're running into resistance may be that you're trying to cheer yourself up by listing all the wonderful things about you. And I hate it when people do that. I've never once seen that be helpful, although we're doing some research on hypnosis, giving people positive suggestions, and maybe it will cheer them up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
In positive reframing, you start with a daily mood log in a situation where you're upset. And you didn't send that for us, so this is all going to be abstract and theoretical rather than a specific example, which would have been much more clarifying, I think, for you and for our audience, but it's still important. And then you list all of your negative feelings like...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Depressed, 80%, anxious, 100%, ashamed or guilty, 80%, inferior, 90%, whatever all of these are. And then your negative thoughts like, I'm a loser, I should be better than I am, and so forth. And when you do positive reframing, you ask yourself the following questions. Number one, you can say, is there some truth in these negative thoughts and feelings?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You know, are they appropriate given my situation? Like when I'm calling myself a loser or whatever it is, what is the truth in that? Is there some truth there? This is clearly not what you're doing, judging from the paragraph we just read. You're trying to build up your positives, and I'm saying let's build up your negatives.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then the second thing you can do is say, and what are some values of beating up on myself like this and having these negative thoughts and feelings? And can they be motivating, for example? Can anxiety be helpful to you? Does it protect you from danger? Does it keep you vigilant, for example? And then a third question you can ask is what...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So what do these negative thoughts and feelings show about me and my core values that's positive and awesome? For example, if you're very self-critical, does this show that you're perfectionistic and have high standards? Mm-hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then finally, you can ask yourself the question, are there some bad things that would happen if I stopped beating up on myself and making myself feel depressed, angry, anxious, hopeless, and so forth? That's kind of the essence of positive reframing. Those are the kinds of questions you ask yourself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And if you like, Rhonda, I don't know if that was helpful so far, but we can read the next three paragraphs of his question if you think that might be helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, you never know what kind of question is going to lead people to the insight where you have the aha moment, but we're trying to get to an aha moment. And the aha moment isn't you know, thinking you're some kind of wonderful person, but beginning to see the beauty in your negative self-critical thoughts and your negative feelings. Because most of the time, we feel ashamed of how we feel.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And one of the next questions, this woman is constantly struggling to keep herself from blushing, or you're trying to control your anxiety or your panic attacks. And that attempt to change and control things often just intensifies them. It's like trying to cheer up someone who's depressed. It never works.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
When people are depressed, they want you to empathize and understand their pain and accept how they're thinking and feeling. When you try to cheer them up, it's just a patronizing insult, really.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yes, John, it would. That's why we wish you would have given us an example. We'd be doing it right now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Only the very detailed worksheets in my book, Feeling Great. And of course, we sent you a free ride on the app. And the app does positive reframing both with AI as well as in the classes and lessons. So those are some resources that might be helpful to you. Go ahead, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
If the advantages are greater, you don't need to change it. It's working for you. If it's 50-50, I'd say let's not work on it because it takes a lot of work and you're kind of on the fence. And maybe you can come back on another occasion if you change your mind and decide that this thing isn't working for you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
But if you find that the disadvantages are greater, then you can use techniques like the semantic technique, positive reframing, the experimental technique, the feared fantasy, as well as any of the more than 100 techniques like be specific is a great technique for self-defeating beliefs. But I'll just tell you how one more of these techniques works would be the semantic technique.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
If you don't decide that it's not to your advantage to base your self-esteem and worthwhileness on your achievements or accomplishments, you could say you can rewrite it in some way that makes sense to you, a way that will eliminate all of the disadvantages and maintain all of the advantages.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Like you might say, I love working hard and creating things, and it's a lot of fun to come up with something. Say if I'm writing something or whatever, your area of achievement might be carpentry or painting or whatever. But if I come up with something really terrific that people love, It doesn't make me any better than any other person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And if I fail and have trouble in an area, it doesn't make me any less worthwhile than another person. So it's to get that judgmental. dimension out of it. And that's just an intellectual exercise, the semantic techniques. But if you're going to get rid of one belief, you have to have another belief to hang your hat on from an intellectual point of view.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
How will I judge myself if I'm not going to base my self-esteem on my achievements? And I think Jason and I would both
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
point out too that our cats tell us an awful lot about this belief because we can love our cats and love being with our cats without having to be special or without the cat having to be special just by being with each other and petting the cat and hearing the cats purr and love us and receive our love. And then positive reframing is always great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
We treated someone with perfectionism recently, Amy, and she was just beating the hell out of herself because she was failing with two of her patients. She's a psychiatrist, a high-powered, highly skillful psychiatrist, but she was just cruelly telling herself she was a fraud and a failure because she was stuck with two of her patients. And before...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Changing her negative thoughts and her beliefs, we had her see what was beautiful and awesome about her negative feelings and thoughts and what it showed about her as a human being and her core values that was positive. And because she was feeling defective and like a loser in a mental case and like she was defective in some way. And she was telling herself, I should give up psychiatry.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I should refund my patients money. She was just being horribly hard on herself. And then when she saw how beautiful these things were, they showed her love for her patients, her commitment to her work, her willingness ever since a little girl to work her ass off at things has brought her tremendous accomplishment. And she can be proud of her depression and her guilt and shame and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And they have motivated her to learn and to grow and have high standards and all of that. And once she saw how the beauty within herself and what she thought were symptoms of an illness, then suddenly the change is just, you know, a few yards away, where the stones throw away, is the way I like to say it. So that's very crucial to see the beauty in your self-defeating beliefs,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
as well as recognizing that you may be paying a heavy price. And you can do an experiment to see if the self-defeating belief is true. Is it true that everyone who accomplishes a lot is more worthwhile? Would we say that Putin is especially worthwhile? Because he's certainly accomplishing a lot. He's murdering people. He's murdered a million people now already. And so those are some of them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
of the approaches, but what you said, Matt, was really pure gold, that you can just put a self-defeating belief in the middle of a recovery circle with arrows pointing out of it, and each arrow is a different method, and you can select from the list of 50 or 100 or more methods, you can select 5, 10, 15, 20 methods to crush a self-defeating belief the same way you can crush a negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So thank you, everybody.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
How to find one? You mean using a downward arrow technique or using the list of 23 or how to?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Sure. The what-if technique is a good one to get to core fears when you're struggling with anxiety. It doesn't always get to a self-defeating belief, but can sometimes get to a self-defeating belief. The individual downward arrow would always get to a self-defeating belief.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, I'll fail my test. Yeah, great. Jason, would you like to be my co-therapist? Sure. Or the solo therapist? Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, great, great. So we'll skip empathy. We'll skip positive reframing, which we've learned in the Tuesday group is always a huge mistake. But we'll do it anyway just to uncover the self-defeating belief. And you want to kick it off, Jason? So what's the negative thought again? I might fail my test.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And by the way, you guys are moving awful fast. I'm writing everything down. And when you do this with yourself or for a patient, always have both people write it down with an arrow under each thought. And that way you can go back and review the chain. But you're off to a great start. I'll let you carry on. Jason? Jason?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
What are you most afraid of? Let's say you never get a good job. You always have kind of an average job. Yeah, that would mean I was a failure at everything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Just for the fun of it, we can go another dimension down, and let's imagine, Matt, that you were in fact worthless, and this might sound like a ridiculous question, but imagine that I'm from Mars, and I don't understand— You know what happens here on the surface of the earth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And so I would be asking you, and then on the earth, surface of the earth here, if you're worthless, why is that a bad thing? Because we don't have that way of thinking on Mars. What happens if you're worthless? You can't get coffee at Starbucks or what happens then?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, I see. Uh-huh. Everyone will reject me. And then if that were true, take it one more step, then is there something negative about that? I mean, it sounds kind of awful, but what would you be afraid of? You mean everyone in the world or everyone who knew you or all human beings?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, you'd be wealthy, though, because you'd be like the most famous celebrity in the world. I'd be very special. You'd appear on talk shows and get tremendous honoraria.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So then we review the list. I might fail my test. and then what's the worst that could happen? Then I might fail my class. Then I'll never have a good job. That would mean I'm a failure, and that would mean that I'm worthless. And if I was worthless, everyone would reject me, and then I'd be miserable forever. And now let's turn this back to... Our expert of experts, Rhonda Barofsky.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Thank you, Jody. And you certainly warm our hearts to write those beautiful words. And it means a lot that we're not getting rich off the podcast, but that's our riches. You're our riches. And we feel especially wealthy today because of you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And what are this individual's self-defeating beliefs?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Is that a self-defeating belief on the list? Yes. It's perfectionism. Oh, perfectionism. Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. If I'm not perfect, I guess, or if I fail, my world will fall apart, something like that? Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, that's a good one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Mm-hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Fear of being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
How about perceived perfectionism, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So we've got five.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I didn't see that in the downward arrow. I see that as something you're reading into it. Oh, really? Yeah, he's not saying he's worthless if he's unhappy. He says he's worthless if he fails.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, you could ask. You can always ask if you have a hypothesis. And when you do, sometimes a person will say, that makes that consistent. And more often they'll say, that doesn't sound quite right. But it's fun to throw those things out to open up the person's brain as much as possible. But that's how you come up with a self-defeating belief. And you came up with one, two, three, four...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
five, six, I think, here, just really, really quickly. Mm-hmm. What are your thoughts, Matt? Does that seem correct?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. Jason, before we move on to another question, can you give us a – and you don't have to do this. I don't want to take advantage. But can you give us a Buddhist perspective on what we've been talking about, these beliefs? Rhonda might also. And Matt might also.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I want to give not only a warm hello to you, Matt, which is always a joy to hang out with you a little bit, but also to introduce with great pride Jason, who's... really kind of the star of our app development. He's been translating TeamCBT into our app using artificial intelligence and making some absolute magic.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, and so if you have the perception that no one is going to love or appreciate me, people are out to bust me, then you'll be kind of reading that into situations.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, I see. Well, I think that is important, and that's what we do want to do. And we've spent an hour on the first question, and we have only nine to go. But these are all great questions, and so we don't need to worry about how many we get through. I think it is nice to have some quality in the way we answer them, that we're giving people something.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then we can, you know, turn this question list into... Two or three podcasts or, you know, so how are we doing on our answer to this question, Jason?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Jill Levitt and I have, that's a great question you asked there. And Jill Levitt and I have gone somewhat in the opposite direction. We used to think of working on a self-defeating belief as kind of an abstract thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
thing you can do and then you've got the daily mood log which is a very practical thing you can do and lately we were of the belief that actually doing a daily mood log at a particular moment that you're upset
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
and talking back to your negative thoughts at that moment and crushing them, you know, being convincing that that's actually the best way to work on a self-defeating belief at one moment in time when you're upset. And you can work on it by talking back to the negative thoughts that you're having at that moment, if that makes sense.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
But Jason's magic is not just from his fantastic programming skills, but from himself, from his incredible background, from your knowledge of Buddhism, of mystical concepts, and your tremendous commitment to being real and to using the app yourself to see if it works well. on you. And you're just such a warm and kindly person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Any comment on that, Jason?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I didn't completely get what you said, but Rhonda is going to summarize it now so I'll understand it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. And that's something you can learn with externalization of voices, too. I think so. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. Do you want to do the achievement one? We can do externalization of voices.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, I'll be the positive thought if you like, but we need some specifics so we know the context.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
OK, yeah. And and you can say, David, you're getting kind of older over the hill and you're getting less less successful. And so you're going to be less worthwhile or something like that. Would that work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, okay. Thank you. Are you done?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. Right. Could I talk to you for a minute, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You know, there's quite a few people who have achieved more than you have.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, you should be ashamed because they're better and more worthwhile than you are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Uncle, you're beating me big time. It's kind of fun, isn't it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I was just thinking maybe we have enough already.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And one of the people for the Ask David wrote eight questions rather than one. And they were all such cool questions. And I just had a hunch that You, Jason, would also have a lot to say about them. And so Jason contributed a wonderful segment for the show notes answering all or most of those eight questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Do you think, Rhoda? And they can read his note in the show notes, the full thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Right. Well, my own thinking here is that we can use dynamic techniques between the presentation and practice really hitting these thoughts out of the park. That's the starting point. And then once we're convinced that he can do that, then he could just practice, you know, talking back to them before the talk. And...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
but to work on them between talks dynamically to really get to enlightenment rather than just chipping away at the negative thoughts. So I would personally suggest using externalization of voices and the feared fantasy technique to attack these thoughts. Great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I'm going to mess this up. People are going to notice something obviously wrong in my presentation that I missed, and I'll look like a fool. And this talk is important. It must go well. Yeah. So who wants to play the role of Hieronymy's positive self?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay. And how about the three of us can be the negative Hieronymy, and we'll attack you with these thoughts and see how you can handle it. Do you want to start us off, Jason?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, good. Okay. Rhonda, would you like to start us off?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You're doing such beautiful, beautiful work.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So did you win large or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay. Jason, would you want to take a turn in this or...?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Sure, I see what you're saying, and that's important. I have a hypothesis that he hasn't really gone into a state of enlightenment on these thoughts. He hasn't used externalization of voices or feared fantasy. So my suggestion would be to use these techniques and get into enlightenment, and then it will be easy for you to use them before you do your talks. But if you're only halfway, you know,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I don't know what it was about them, but there was something about that fellow and his questions. It was very, very awesome. And so we have a lot of cool things to talk about today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
beating these thoughts, then you're going to be very vulnerable just before it. But you have to have had the experience of enlightenment to really have stepped out of the world where these thoughts are intimidating you. That's what I'm thinking. But we could go in an entirely different direction, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Right, right. That's right. Let's try a different order. How about I'll be the negative Rhonda, and you can be the positive Rhonda, and I'll hit you with one of these and see how you can do, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, Rhonda, I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but that was lame what you just said. And he's already outshined you. And people are going to notice there's something obviously wrong when you do this role play. And you're going to miss, you know, hitting it out of the park. And you're going to look like a fool. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but I just wanted to let you know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Great. Who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I thought it was huge, too. How did you get to huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yes, right. Right. Do you want to push it up to a higher level, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, that will move from externalization of voices to feared fantasy. And Jason, Matt, and David will be the audience from hell. This is an imaginary world. This is not assertiveness training. And in this imaginary world, if you think that people are going to be judging you, they really do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
and they actually get right up in your face and say the things that you think other people would be thinking but would never dare to say to you. So you can confront the monster that you've been afraid of and see if the monster has teeth. Are you okay with that, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Let's see. You want to start it off, either Matt or Jason? I can if no one else wants to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You're going to go for it or I should?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, yeah. Could I talk to you for a minute, Rhonda? Sure. Do you remember before your talk today, you were saying that people were going to notice there was something wrong with your presentation and you were thinking that you'd look like a fool. And then you decided that it's OK to make mistakes and that people seem to love you and accept you as human. And that's freeing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That's what you said, right? Right. Yeah, but I heard your talk today, and I noticed a lot of ways you screwed up in the presentation. And I think you did look like a fool, and I judge you as a fool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
No, I think you're uneducable, and I don't really have time to go about teaching you. I'm on a much higher level. Yeah. I want to spend my time with more important people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Do you want to do a role reversal with either Jason or with Matt? Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, I thought that was great, too. I'd love to be in the receiving role of a feared fantasy, and I don't know if you would want to do it, Jason, also. I don't want to suck you into this, that, or the other thing, because we want to get you back on the show as often as possible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
OK, well, I'm glad you raised that question because there's a really fantastic answer to that. It's blow away and everything that this person was was was hoping for. And Jason will now reveal that answer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I love that. That that's cool. Everyone might have their own. little thing. As you use these techniques, find the formula that works for you. I used to tell myself before giving a workshop, say a two-day workshop before it starts,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
often I'm in a bad mood because the audio-video typically doesn't work right, or the audio, and they don't have a technician there to fix it, and I get pissed off. And then I say, and I'm supposed to be Dr. Feelgood, and I'm like, Dr. Feelpissed right now. But then I used to tell myself, well, David, remember that the way you feel just before the talk has nothing to do with how the talk goes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Because I've seen that in the data, and that's very helpful for me. And also I have people evaluate me on a feedback scale every time I do a presentation or a Tuesday group teaching. So I find out what is my rating, and I know what is a C, what's a B, what's an A-, what's an A. And I have them write down what they like the least and what they like the most.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And knowing that I'm going to get that data is very helpful, too, because if there's something that people don't like, it's generally something specific. Not that you suck as a human being, but when you didn't find truth in my question, I felt hurt or something like that. And then you can learn from those specific things. I treated a woman for public speaking anxiety who had...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
She was in a Fortune 500 company, and she had to give some kind of talk, and she was pregnant. And when she got up to give her talk, she passed out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And was very humiliated by that and asked me for some help through the Internet since I'd never met her. But again, she was saying I shouldn't have passed out and this is a terrible and bad thing. that I deserved to feel ashamed of. And she had the fear that, you know, it might happen again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then I guess people had high regard for her regardless and asked her to coach someone in public speaking anxiety in the company. And she asked me, what if this person finds out that I fainted? And I said, well, why don't you tell him and find out what he thinks? And she said, oh, that would be terrible. He'll lose trust in me and blah, blah, blah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I said, well, you don't have to do it, but I would strongly encourage you to do it because it's hiding that creates shame. And once you get it out and open, it might fall into a different perspective. And so she agreed to tell him. And the next week I met with her again just through email exchange. She she was very excited because she told the student of hers. and said, what do you think?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And he says, this is by far the best thing you ever said. It's so helpful to me to know that someone as polished as you could faint or feel anxious. And what then she started doing in each of her presentations, I said, now you could tell your audiences, too. You know, you don't have to hide it from anybody.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So she started all of her talks as, I just want you folks to know that I often have intense public speaking anxiety, and sometimes I even pass out. And that will probably happen at any moment. But if I do, just splash some cold water on me and slap me around a little bit, and I'll get up and I'll be just fine. And then the audience all laughs.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And she used that in all of her talks from that day on. And then she contacted me a year or two later, and she'd won an award as the top – public speaker and top public speaking teacher among Fortune 500 companies. It was a very prestigious thing, and it just came about by, like what you were saying, Jason, to accept the anxiety rather than fighting it and thinking you've got to make it go away.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Matt, I heard you get very anxious sometimes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, go. Go ahead.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. The attempt to control it and thinking it's some awful thing that you shouldn't be having. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, I'll give first round to you three, and then I'll mention a bunch of techniques for challenging self-defeating beliefs. We're working on a class on self-defeating beliefs for the app, actually. So it's been at the top of the agenda in recent weeks, so it was a great question. But let's let the... The three of you share your expertise, and then I'll chime in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Self-disclosure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, yeah. I had to give a talk on anxiety at Harvard once. and on cognitive therapy. And I decided to do it on public speaking anxiety, And I imagined that it would be like a seminar with maybe eight psychiatric residents and a couple of faculty or something like that. And when I got there, I found out it wasn't anything like that at all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It was a full-day continuing education program with eight speakers. And I was the last speaker of the day. Right. And the other speakers were these hot dog Harvard Medical School researchers talking about their genetic research. It was all basic cellular technology stuff. And I said, oh, my God, I'm in the wrong spot. There were 1,000 psychiatrists in the audience.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I started getting more and more nervous and telling myself, oh, I wish I wasn't here. This is the worst day of my life. And I felt so inferior to those other speakers who were these internationally renowned scientists and scientists. And then I got up, by the time I went up to speak to the podium, my mouth was so dry that I couldn't make any sounds come out of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I was looking out at these 1,000 psychiatrists staring at me. And... And then I just, on the spur of the moment, said, my talk today is on using cognitive therapy for anxiety, and I'm going to be focusing on public speaking anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I said, but to get started, I'd like to know, have any of you had intense public speaking anxiety where you got so nervous at the start of a talk that you felt that you wouldn't even be able to make any sounds, and your mouth got dry, and you're just really in a state of panic? Hold your hand up if you've ever had that experience. And I swear that 75% of the hands went up like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And they said, well, that's how I'm feeling right now because we've had all these fantastic speakers, and I'm just going to show you some kind of humble cognitive therapy techniques. And they laughed, and they really liked it, and it turned into a really nice experience. But again, it's sharing... where you're at, rather than hiding it in shame.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That hiding in shame is where things get really, really intensified. And it's so much fun to accept your failures and flaws and shortcomings. Once you've accepted it yourself, I think it almost makes you more appealing to have some flaws as a human being, especially if you're treating others with love and presenting yourself as just a flawed human being. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I love that, Jason. I do when I write show notes, like, well, I've already written them for this episode, but I use the same strategy. Sometimes I write them after the show because it's not an Ask David, but I tell myself, do an anti-perfectionistic show notes. Just do something well below average.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then send it out to people to check it out and edit it and change it and tell them it's just an unedited off the top of my head thing that isn't very good. And so please fix it up and correct it and delete things and add whatever you want. And then that makes it real easy just to spit out some average junk. which is what the show notes consist of.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then I send them out to everyone to, you know, say the people who are on the show and say, check this out, change anything you want. And then most of the time people say, oh, this is great, just the way it is. It's so interesting. And Rhonda, sometimes you'll find some typos or something and it makes some corrections that I always appreciate. But it's like you can get away with being average.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, my first academic talk was at Oxford in England at a conference, and I was terribly anxious, and I was just certain I would blow it. It was even worse than the Harvard thing. It was a lot worse. And I did blow it. It was even worse than what I had imagined, and I couldn't sleep a wink the night before.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I was just up wandering around the Oxford campus, and owls were hooting at me sarcastically, and the whole world seemed against me. And my talk wasn't until the end of the following day, which was the end of the conference. And I was so nervous, it was just horrible. It was the most humiliating experience I've ever had, I think. But then I worked to getting over that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And it's just like what you say, Matt. Now I'm teaching tonight. This is my second podcast today. And I'm confronting it all the time. And now the thing that I was so afraid of, I love doing. But I still get a little anxious from time to time. Before this morning's podcast, I was very anxious because I thought this guy was going to challenge me and rip me to shreds.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I don't know how I got that idea. But probably because my computer was failing and I was in a state of high anxiety. But he was just so sweet and kind, and so it was just a wonderful, wonderful experience. He's the guy who wrote F Depression and F Anxiety. And so I thought he'd be real aggressive. But he was just the kindest guy you can imagine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I loved having you on today, Jason. I'm so grateful. It was just that much richer, our podcast, because of you. Just don't ever do it again. You got it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, yeah. No problem. It was just I loved the comradeship today and the talk and everything that we did. And we got two of our 10 questions answered. We didn't get to the first of yours, Jason. And so we'll probably, you know, use that same list for the next Ask David, should we, folks?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, because those eight additional questions, I'll leave them in the show notes, but then I'll say we'll be addressing numbers three and four and five in upcoming podcasts. But, you know, just so nice to hang out and pretend like we're experts or something. You feel like you have something you can give to somebody. Maybe you have a little understanding that they don't, that they will appreciate.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So let us know, Haraname, was this helpful to you? And also, who was our first one? That was Anonymous. Yes. Oh, anonymous. The self-defeating belief was anonymous. Oh, okay. Well, email us if you hear the show. I hope you will. And tell us what you think.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, we've got Rhonda and Jason are up to that. Well, let me just make one comment on what you said. What is a self-defeating belief? I'll attach the list of 23 self-defeating beliefs to the show notes. So if you read the show notes, then you can look and circle the ones that resonate with you. And they're all different, but it's the philosophy that's going on under the surface.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And a lot of self-defeating beliefs are what we call self-esteem equations. It's like I need substance X to be worthwhile, to be happy and worthwhile. That's the belief. And it might be perfection. I have to be perfect to be worthwhile. Or my worth depends on my achievements. Or I need love to be worthwhile. Or I need approval to be worthwhile. And then the theory of it is that that...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
perfectionism or love addiction or approval addiction or whatever is with you all the time, but it only kicks into upsetting you when a particular kind of negative event happens. So that, let's say you have the approval addiction, I need everyone's approval to feel happy and worthwhile. then if you are getting people's approval, you'll feel great. You'll be terrific.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That's my elderly weird rump.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
But we would predict that you would crash when you get disapproval, when people are judging you, when people are criticizing you, then you'd have a lot of negative thoughts flowing through your mind. You tell yourself, oh, my gosh, I'm a loser. I'm no good. These people hate me or whatever you're you're thinking, and then you're going to get sad, anxious, and depressed, and guilty, and ashamed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So that the self-defeating belief tells us what kind of things will trigger your mood slumps, and it will explain the timing to a certain extent of mood slumps. That's the basic theory at any rate. and it has what's called heuristic value.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It makes sense to people and seems helpful to people, which isn't the same as scientific truth, because sometimes when you try to test these things scientifically, they don't pan out. But that's the basic idea and theory of a self-defeating belief. Back to you guys.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That's exactly right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, that's cool. I'll give you some techniques for challenging self-defeating beliefs. One thing to do first, let's say you have this idea, my worthwhileness depends on my achievements. And you brought that up as a potential problem in therapy, that that's maybe a source of your anxiety and a source of your... depression or whatever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And it might have come up from an uncovering technique, like a downward arrow technique. And then how would you change that? That idea of my worthwhileness depends on my accomplishments or my intelligence or my success in life. And the cost-benefit analysis is based on the idea that the term self-defeating beliefs is somewhat misleading, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And Albert Ellis called them irrational beliefs, which is also somewhat misleading because it implies that they're bad or they're going to defeat you or they're kind of irrational. The way I look at a self-defeating belief, it's more like a two-edged sword. It actually has a lot of benefits for you as well as a price to pay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
The first thing is to do a cost-benefit analysis and put a line down the middle of a piece of paper and put the advantages on the left and the disadvantages on the right. And it wouldn't be the advantages and disadvantages of achievement. That means you didn't get the point.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It's the advantages and disadvantages of basing your happiness and feelings of worthwhileness on your achievements or your accomplishments. And there are a lot of advantages. When you accomplish something great, you'll feel terrific. That's certainly an advantage. And it'll motivate you to work hard and accomplish more and maybe make more money. That's certainly a positive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And then other people may admire you because you're so hardworking and industrious. And because you have high values, you may end up doing more high-quality work, and on and on. And so those are very real advantages. And then in the right-hand column, you can list the disadvantages. When I fail, I'll fall apart.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
When I'm worried about failure, I'll be struggling with anxiety and maybe performance anxiety. And And, you know, I may be afraid to take on new challenges for fear of not performing perfectly or failing. And when I fail, I may view it as some kind of emotional defeat rather than an opportunity to learn from the failure. What can this tell me? What specific errors did I make? And so forth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And so you'll find tremendous numbers of advantages and disadvantages in any self-defeating belief. And then you can weigh them on a 100-point scale, which put two numbers at the bottom of the columns. On my cost-benefit analysis, there's a little graph. You know, kind of like a barbell or a dumbbell or something, a line with two circles at the end.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And you put the, like, if the advantages seem greater, you might put 65, 35 in the circles. If it's a wash, you might put 50, 50 in the circles. And if the disadvantages are greater, you might put, like, 20 in the advantages circle and 80 in the disadvantages circle. And then you only work to change that self-defeating belief if the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
There are training programs you can sign up for. And in all fairness, I would say that my view of licensed mental health professionals is the same as what you've described, Rhonda. It consists of cults. with gurus who were the cult leaders. We call them the great people in the history of psychiatry and psychology.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But I've mentioned on many occasions I had the honor of sitting next to Albert Ellis a few times at conferences generally in his honor. And because I admired him, they would often seat me next to him. And he kind of liked me because he was a little narcissistic himself. And he knew I liked him, so he liked me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But he used to tell me about all the great people in the history of psychiatry and psychology. And he knew most of them in the 20th century because he was really doing his thing in the 1950s. And he said, David, you know, they're all a bunch of charlatans and frauds and psychos and narcissistic psychopaths who lie and take advantage. And their followers believe things just like cult followers.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And when I first heard him say that, I was pretty darn shocked. And then I thought of the famous ones that I knew personally. And I thought, my gosh, this is really true. And that's why I've personally been trying to develop a science-based, data-driven science of psychotherapy that...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And certainly a coach is free to use the tools we've developed, testing people at the start and end of every session, using the evaluation of therapies session scale to see what your empathy score is, see if you're getting changes in the patient's negative feelings. I think the whole field of mental health overall needs a radical change.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
change and getting away from these semi-religious cults where you've got your Adlerians and your ACT people and your EMDR, eye-jiggling people. Sorry if that insulted someone, but it was intentionally passive-aggressive. You're eye tapping people. Let's see, where do I tap? Oh, is it right here on my right eyebrow and my OCD will disappear?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, I'm cured.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And, you know, there's all this junk going on right now. And I think the whole field needs, I don't know quite how it's going to happen, but I think it does have to happen. And we've got plenty of People who want to charge a lot, well, certainly there are no psychologists or psychiatrists like that, Rhonda, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I thought I'd start off today with reading a very beautiful endorsement that came to you via the YouTube channel that now we're posting the podcast with video as well as audio. And someone watched the YouTube video and said, Hey, Dr. David Burns, I'm a reader of Feeling Good and Feeling Great in Korea. You may have heard expressions of gratitude many times, and it might not be as impactful to you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
There are a lot of people that charge a lot of money, especially in the Bay Area, where there are a lot of high-income humans living. I'm just not 100%. understanding what the difference is between coaching and therapists. Because Angela, you've discussed, and David has said too, you've got through a lot of training. I've seen you at trainings and you're putting on trainings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I don't understand the difference in why you're calling yourself a coach and why you're not calling yourself a therapist. Because clearly You've been well-trained as a Team CBT therapist, and you have provided therapy to people. So to me, you're a therapist. I don't know why I would even call you a coach.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
A therapist and a damn good one and a teacher and a damn good one. Let's get on to the positives of this show. We didn't get you folks on here to rake you with the cold. Well, I mean, that is positive. To sing your... sing your praises and find out the cool things that you're doing and how other people can hook up and learn from you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Tell me more. I like you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Coaching is regulated?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
However, I want you to know that you have changed my life and I'm profoundly grateful beyond words. I wish you happiness and good health.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. And we have to get to Lorna, who I think is on the program to be more than a decorative object. And so, but I just wanted to say, I think there's some, a couple of legal differences. I think that you have to be a licensed mental health professional to do diagnosis and And maybe some can and others cannot.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And then also, I think that in terms of dealing with someone who has suicidal urges or fantasies or concerns, that I think coaches are supposedly not supposed to be dealing with those patients. Are there any other... Psychosis...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind and thoughtful statements. And I know that you do too, Rhonda. Absolutely. Because we were reaching out in so many ways in the hopes of touching folks. And when you tell us you have received something positive, it really means a great deal to me and I know to you, Rhonda, also. Definitely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Thank you so much for explaining that. I'm really glad you were able to delineate that. And Lorna, you're in Angela's Masterclass and Mentoring Program. What's that like for you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Well, let's say that I want to learn more about coaching and maybe become a coach. What will I learn in your masterclass, Angela? How long does it last and how many students are there in the classes and what kinds of things happen?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Sounds fantastic.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Sounds just like Team CBT to me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
We've got two other really neat people today, two of my favorites who are reaching out and talking about a topic that I think is really, really interesting and I hope will be interesting to you folks as well. And it's a little bit on the controversial side, which makes it even more fun to talk about. But What is coaching?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
No, I don't even remember the question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, I never found seeing patients to be tiring or exhausting. For me, 100% of the time is the more patients I saw on a day, the higher I got. And the only thing that ever brought me down was if I thought I said something that hurt someone's feelings or they left the session feeling really bad. That was horrible for me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
It was like getting shot in the stomach by a bowling ball or a cannon or something like that. And but but, you know, it's it is not true that seeing working with people who are depressed could be depressing. They cannot possibly depress you because it goes back to Epictetus. The only thing that can make you happy or unhappy are your own thoughts about what happens.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
What you're interacting with, the events don't cause our feelings. It's our interpretation. It's what we're telling ourselves, the narrative about those events. And if I saw somebody who says, gosh, Dr. Burns, I've been to 12 therapists and no one's ever been able to help me and I've been super severe and I haven't had one minute of happiness in my life, I feel euphoric.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Because I think, oh, my God, do I have a lot to give this person? This is going to be a tremendous positive experience. I get all kind of excited because that's my interpretation of that situation. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
As the Buddha said so many hundreds and thousands of years ago, there's no such thing as effing compassion fatigue. It's just a farce. You know, compassion is not fatiguing. The only thing that can fatigue you is your own distorted thoughts. But yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Get hooked on our own narcissism.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That used to happen to me an awful lot and still happens to me on occasion. You, you get thinking, Oh man, I can give this person something that nobody else can. And they're, they're going to be so impressed with me when I do these amazing things. And then boy, you're heading for trouble when you get sucked into that type of, into that type of format. Um, for, for sure. Um,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Angela, you also have this really incredible extensive knowledge in tech. And I know you've done incredible work gathering all of the techniques that David has put together and made a beautiful chart for everyone. And I know I've called on you for tech support and you put together the toolkit. And when it became an electronic, how did you move from tech to
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
This is a new thing that I think is catching on in a pretty significant and big way. You folks can confirm whether or not that's valid, but that's my thought. And we want to find out what is a coach? How does a coach compare with a psychologist? Or how does coaching compare with psychotherapy? Is it a good thing or is it a terrible thing like most psychotherapy? No, I didn't mean to say that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
coaching and how do you incorporate them together?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I used to get a lot of, well, still do, I suppose, but I used to get a lot of attorneys as clients, and they really loved what I... In those days, we were calling it CBT when I was in private practice. Now, it's a little different because it's evolved so much, but...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
to become team, but they love that logical aspect, the analytic aspect of CBT and seeing that their thoughts were distorted and they could change those distorted thoughts and change the way they, they feel. So I, I especially enjoyed working with attorneys for that reason.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, wow. That's so sad. I'm sorry to hear that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That's a beautiful story. I love that story. I don't think you told that the last time you were here. Yeah. Yeah. That's neat.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I'd like to hear from Angela and from Lorna, maybe give Lorna a first shot, hear more about you and you're doing coaching in Australia. Is that correct? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And you're in our Tuesday training group at Stanford every week.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. And and so if if if I'm and I guess a coach can help someone anywhere in the world. There's nothing about crossing state lines like we have in the United States. That's kind of an advantage of being a coach. But if I'm in Australia, you know. Where are you located? Do you see people in person? Do you do all virtual work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But let's hear what these experts have to say. I remember when I was in college, my freshman year, we had a fellow in our class who was blind. David Agnew, I think was his name, a really nice guy and really brilliant guy. And I think he had the idea of becoming a lay psychoanalyst, not doing the route of those days you had to go through medical school first and whatever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And if I am an Australian struggling, you know, what kind of problems would you like people to bring to you? Would it be depression, anxiety, relationship problems? What can you do for your fellow Australians?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
You have a lifestyle retreat. Do you sponsor this yourself? Do you make this happen?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, it's pretty exciting. Yeah. So if I was in Australia and I want to see, well, should I go to this Lorna person for help or wherever, I guess, you know, can you give me a, you know, 25 words or less sales pitch or something? Like what would I hope to experience by coming and working with you, Lorna? Yeah. And I'll ask you the same question, Angela.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That's what I'm always trying to do, make people their own shrinks so they won't need to come to me anymore. Exactly. Are you using the brief mood survey at the start and end of sessions?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Do you see changes from the start to the end of the session?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So if I'm in Australia or elsewhere in the world, feeling down and depressed or anxious and worried and panicky or angry or all of the above, you're my person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, do you? I didn't know that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
We'll give us both of you your contact number so people will know where to go if they want some coaching, Lorna. And Angela, if they want coaching or training, tell us. You're in Canada, so occasionally I refer Canadian people to you. I'm always happy to have you available. And Mike Christensen, too, down, you know, I guess he's north of Vancouver. But tell us a little more of what your niche is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And I think you also have a bit of a religious focus integrated into your psychotherapy or coaching, which is not important to some people and is very important to others. Tell us a little bit about that as you know. Or anything you want, really. Sure. Turn us on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So that's... I'm going to write that down now. TeamCBT, is that one word?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
you know, a lot of requirements to be a psychoanalyst. And, you know, it was all very important and very controlled. And I remember thinking, gosh, maybe that would be a good idea, have more lay people as psychoanalysts. And so it might be the case here, too, that maybe coaching can bring us something that people with extensive knowledge
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
dot ca like ca yeah uh-huh effective compassion oh is that a slash after ca for canada yes yes and uh effective uh compassion is that one word or two words effective compassion all all one no space yeah
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, that's beautiful, Angela. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
All righty. Back to you, Rhonda, tell us where we're at and there's other things we need to cover today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Well, I think Angela and Lorna, you've done a really beautiful job of explaining the differences between coaching and therapy. And Angela, you've prided so much service to the entire team CBT community with everything that you've done. I'm very appreciative of the times that I have worked with you and you've coached and trained me. you have found a response to everything that I'm confused about.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And, and I've, I've learned a lot from listening to you. I don't know. I really appreciate it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. And do you see people in person or all virtual?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And then on the individual coaching level, what's your cup of tea there? And I guess you're not limited to Canada there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Why do you have a waiting list? Is that because you're slow or because you're popular?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That's great. That's neat that you have a waiting list. I love hearing that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, that's great to hear. Well, anything else that anyone wants to say here? This is your shot. We have, you know, right at the moment, it's live. We told you that, but there's 700,000 people listening at this moment. not. But there will be a lot of people, you know, thousands of people hearing this. So any other words that you want to say or ideas that you want to share?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
but perhaps somewhat limiting training might not, but we'll find out. We'll dive in and see what's under the surface with regard to coaching.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I think that what you're doing is great. And I think you're taking, myself, a very ethical approach to what you're doing. And, you know, what you said, Rhonda, that, you know, there are
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
shysters in the world it seems to me like our world is getting more and more shysterish and sadly I don't think they're limited to co-chain I think we've got plenty of people in our own ranks of psychiatry and psychology who are nothing I'm proud of but I shouldn't throw stones or rocks at others but I think there's a lot of poor training in all areas of mental health.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And I'm not trying to put everybody down, but what I'm trying in my own way to do is to lift the standards up, getting people using measurement, find out how are your patients feeling right now at the start and end of your session so you can see instantly if you're being effective and how do they rate you on warmth and empathy and helpfulness and things of that nature. Yeah, absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I think every mental health professional should be doing that. And sadly, very, very few are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So Angela, what's a coach?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
That's so inspiring, Angela. I love that you said that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And then one other thing that you guys might, you ladies, you wonderful people, whatever is the correct thing, that this is coming out on September 16th, and our Feeling Great app is available as of today, although it's officially going to be released on August 8th, the start of the intensive run.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Coincidentally, that's when our press release is coming out, and we're going to have an article in this article journal called Technical Crunch. It was supposed to be a real top-level thing, if you can get in it, when you have an app or something technical to announce. So apparently they accepted our press release, so we'll be interviewed for that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But one thing we're trying to explore, and coaches might have an interest in this, is I think on some level, everybody is hoping for effectiveness in our work. And what that means is a drop in those scores on the depression test, the anxiety test, the anger test, the relationship conflict improvement, and things like that. And we're seeing some pretty spectacular results in people who use the app.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
In fact, dramatic changes in as little as an hour. The first time people sit down with the app now, we're seeing like 50% reduction in seven negative emotions. And if coaches wanted to explore combining your coaching with the app, it might be, you know, one plus one equals two or one plus one equals three. Right. because many people need more than an app, need a human connection.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I know when I'm having a technical problem, I really would like a real person on the other end of the line helping me figure out how to get my website fixed or whatever. And I think it's the same with our emotions. And I think the The app can be a tremendous resource for the general public who are hurting and for therapists and coaches who are trying to speed people out of misery and into joy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So if you have any experiences like that, make sure you pass them on to me so we can understand more about if there's a place for the app. the app to partner up with coaches and, and therapists in order to try to transform the face of mental health and start providing much faster relief to people than was previously thought possible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, that's right. Yeah, I'm not sure why all that problem is that people aren't allowed to use it. If they're not from the U.S., I think there are all these regulations and things that someone in our company is looking into. It'll get figured out eventually.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
You know, another thing I want to add to piggyback about how people can find you Angela and Lorna and everyone else that you're, you're training to be a coach or therapist is that if I'm not sure if, you know, we made the announcement earlier that myself and a few other team therapists are starting a nonprofit, a professional organization for team CBT therapists called team CBT international.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And it's really geared toward education and, and educating therapists locally and providing seed money to, to therapists who want to be trainers. And, you know, it's just like any other profession. We need a nonprofit professional organization of us, like the Association of Women Psychiatrists. And this will be a professional organization.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
We're keeping the fees very low, especially in the first few years. And then we will be publishing the directory of our membership. You can join as a coach or a therapist, whatever. Doesn't matter. It'll be a worldwide directory of all team CBT therapists.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. Let you know more about it as it goes forward.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Okay. Well, thank you so much. It's been a great podcast as usual, and we really appreciate your taking the time out of your busy schedules to join us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Good luck with what you're doing and thanks for hitching your, our star, our wagon to your star or your wagon to our star for working together. Cause I just love both of you and have so much tremendous regard for you as a really beautiful human beings, but also skillful, compassionate therapists. And I applaud you both. Absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Thank you for listening. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
When you say some therapists are moving toward coaching, you mean they're trying to become coaches or they're moving to the more positive model of therapy that we've been developing?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Hi, David. Welcome to our listeners around the world, around the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast and it's episode 414. We have two very special guests today, Angela Poach and Lorna Bird, whom I'll introduce in a second.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Right. Well, that's super important because, you know, my research and my whole career has been kind of focused around the fact that doing your psychotherapy homework is going to make all the difference between success or failure in therapy, whether you call it therapy or coaching or whatever. So I'm certainly sympathetic to that approach. not wanting to you know focus on on analyzing the past.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I've had a lot of patients, not a lot, but from time to time, people who said, I really want you to help me analyze my past so I can find out why I'm like the way I am. Why do I procrastinate? Why am I so depressed? Why am I so anxious? What kind of childhood experiences cause this? And then I've always told them, you know, I'm not much of an expert in causes. All I know about is cures.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
But I do have a rule that I will be willing to explore your past with you, but only after you're cured. And so if after you've found joy and happiness, you still want to explore your past, you just let me know and we'll talk about it to your heart's content. But I never had one person take me up on that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah. You know, I do something called causal modeling when I analyze app data. And it's a very precise form of statistics. You have to have careful measurements and then you build mathematical models and you can test your hypotheses about causes. And the model will tell you two things. First of all, whether or not your model even makes sense from a statistical point of view.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And I would say 90% of the time, the computer tells you your model doesn't make sense, your thinking sucks. And there's no point in interpreting the results of this analysis because the very analysis itself is misguided. And then sometimes it'll tell you, yes, this model does fit the data. That doesn't mean it's a true model, but it is consistent with your data.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And then it tells you whether your hypotheses are valid or invalid or kind of fence sitters that can't be decided. And most of the time, the computer shows you that your causal hypothesis of what's causing depression, what causes change in people who use the app, that these beliefs that we have about things simply aren't correct.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And it happens rapidly, and the computer can dispute as many as 20 theories per hour very easily. And I think I've told this story before, but I gave a great workshop. The workshop was really well received. And I know you've been to a lot of my workshops, Angela, going back a long time. And I can picture you right now being in my workshops up near the front row and saying, I wonder who she is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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I just want to say that the topic for today is coaching in addition to counseling. And so, hi, Angela.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Borowski, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
She seems to be in a lot of my workshops and she must be a really neat person. I found out you were. But this fellow drove me to the airport and he said he was a psychiatrist and he loved the workshop. But he said, it just seems to me you're messing out on an important thing, which is you don't seem to address the causes of depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And what I felt like telling him, and he was such a nice guy, I didn't exactly challenge him. But, you know, the cause of depression and anxiety, the causes are not yet known to science, right? And so the idea that you can rummage through your past and discover the cause of something is kind of bizarre or bizarre. Well, I don't want to say childish because that would be controversial.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
You would never be controversial. Not very bright because that would be insulting. So I won't say those things, but I am thinking those things. And, you know, why don't we have some humility and work with what we've got? And because we can help people change their lives. But, you know, claiming we know the causes of things, it strikes me as arrogant and not very critical thinking in my view.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
major in college was the philosophy of science. And we kind of learned how to think about things more critically and from a scientific perspective. So I think, you know, your idea there, Angela, is certainly consistent with my thinking.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah, I want to just say a little bit that Angela is a level four team certified specialist, and she also provides tech support for David's website. So she's an incredibly balanced human being. And Lorna Bird is a counselor in Australia. And Lorna is working with Angela in her mentoring group. Maybe you could tell us more about that as we keep going. Sure. Yeah. And you too. Hello, David.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So can I jump in with an opposite view?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
No, no. Back to you, Angela.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
So I know, Angela, you are very talented. You're well-trained. Like David said, you've gone to a million trainings. I've been on the receiving end of your teachings. I think you have so much insight. And you've worked really hard to be a really great therapist and trainer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And people in my Wednesday group say every once in a while, I've taken a class with Angela Poach and always really welcome their comments. And so when you say you're a coach and you're coaching clients, I know that they're in really great hands. you talk about coaching as a non-regulated profession. I've also heard people say, Oh, I went, I was an alcoholic or a substance abuser.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And now I'm going to coach people and I'm going to charge them $200 an hour. And I've heard people say, Oh yeah, I went through a divorce. It was really high conflict. I learned so much from it. Now I'm going to coach people how to get through their divorce. And I'm going to charge a ton of money for that. And yeah,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I have difficulty with people because they want to coach through their personal experience instead of through training and knowledge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
And so that's my struggle when I hear the word coach. Like, what is someone getting? I know when someone is getting... hopefully a licensed mental health professional, that they've gone through some ethics, that they know about boundaries, that they have some basic level of training and education.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I also have to say, I don't think all therapists, especially team CBT therapists, are getting bogged down in unanswerable questions like what has caused their depression, but are really focused on the here and now because that's part of
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
cognitive behavioral therapy and team therapy in particular so i don't want to throw water on this fire and this really exciting topic but there's to me there's another side of it absolutely i think that's a really important point and something that i you know i try to deal with at length when i'm teaching coaching for sure because um
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
I'm sorry, I think you forgot to correctly name it. Did you mean to say sleazy gurus?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
She kept after it after that 10-minute cure type of thing. She kept going into skyscrapers, elevators, and high buildings and kept after it. So it wasn't, you know, I think one and done is kind of misleading information.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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And one tiny point here, if you look at the DSM, it looks like people have one emotion. They'll get a major depressive episode or generalized anxiety disorder or a phobia. But what the statistics from our app research showed is that there's an unknown common cause in the brain that activates seven negative emotions simultaneously, probably more than seven, but we prove that it activates seven.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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And you see that here, that it wasn't just the phobia, but there was shame and anger and frustration and inadequacy a lot of emotions getting activated simultaneously and that's because of this common cause and so you may be most focused on I have a driving phobia but that's associated with the activation of a lot of intense negative emotions at the same time that's a really good point
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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Yeah, yeah, that's right. And there was one woman who followed up. I'm trying to think of her name, and I think she might have passed away, sadly. although she was quite a young woman, and she didn't necessarily think she had very high skills.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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Other cars will do what?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember that one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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95, wow. I'm so dumb for having this problem?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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But then I came down for a follow-up, and she showed me the data from the beginning and end of her groups, and she'd been doing some really awesome work and getting beautiful high-speed results from the people who were attending her 10 Days to Self-Esteem group. And it was shocking to her because she hadn't been looking at the data, so she didn't realize she was hitting it out of the park.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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I can only imagine how... incredibly terrifying and overwhelming those thoughts and perceptions were. Yeah, they were really terrifying. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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I have a question for you, Rhonda, and also for you, Werner. A lot of people, it's my perception that most therapists just want one simple thing to do. And so for a phobia, it would be, you know, exposure plus cheerleading, assuming the therapist is brave or, you know, vague talk about childhood and no exposure if the therapist isn't brave.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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And if you're a full fee patient and want to talk for a long time without anything changing. Yeah. But a good therapy involves mastering many skills that come together at the same time. And certainly exposure is a part of the treatment of any form of anxiety. obviously including phobias.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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But how important was this cognitive part identifying and challenging these negative thoughts as well as the empathy, the connection, the warmth that Werner was and is today demonstrating?
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So you opened up instead of using your karate on him?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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She tried. And was that important to be vulnerable and human?
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Why would have the therapy not worked or been less effective if you hadn't allowed yourself to be vulnerable and real?
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418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Okay, nice. That's beautifully stated. I hope some of our listeners picked up on that because things are not as simple as we sometimes want to think they are. And if all I have to do is learn exposure, and then I'll be an ace therapist because I'll push my patients to do exposure. And you're saying that even to do exposure, there's an important part of a warm, trusting therapeutic relationship.
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And it was really a very beautiful thing to see. I was so, so happy for her.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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And that without that, it can, could even sabotage the attempts to use exposure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I also think and would want to ask you, Lee and Werner were in the car with you, I believe. They were. Did that social structure make it easier for you to do the exposure?
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Made it harder to do the exposure due to the embarrassment of showing your fears?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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And the thought that they would judge you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I think she had shaky self-confidence, and maybe the staff didn't have a lot of confidence in her either, so they gave, well, she can try this Burns group model. And then I think everyone was shocked at what beautiful results that she'd been getting. I'll never forget that.
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Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. You know, I have a theory about that, by the way, and it's that your thoughts create your moods.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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So kindness and tenderness and gentleness can be powerful tools to overcome violent feelings.
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It's fun to have you on, Werner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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Oh, okay. In the beginning, God created Earth in seven days. Oh, wow. And then he created a man and took one of the male ribs and created a woman. That's how it all got started.
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Yeah. So just to comment for our listeners, uh, you, you, you went through the outcome resistance, uh, and now you're switching to the process resistance, working on those two motivational dimensions. The first was, uh, Would you want to get your emotions down to a lower level given that they show so many beautiful things about you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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And you mentioned externalization of resistance, which you could have done too, kind of like externalization of voices. Try to goad Rhonda into, well, gosh, maybe it's not such a good idea because then you're going to maybe get on a bridge and it's going to collapse. And as the Buddha so often said, that sucks. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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Well, that's what some people say.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And then having gone through the outcome resistance, now the process resistance is, well, in order to be able to drive wherever you want, there's going to be a certain price to pay in terms of exposure and discomfort.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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So I'll turn it back to you, but I just wanted to explain to our listeners, because sometimes it's real obvious to us, and people need a little teaching along the way to say what step we are in the process that you're doing so beautifully, Werner.
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Yeah, that's complicated. We'll explain that to you after the podcast.
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Before you go on, you lost me there, Werner, and just maybe you can clarify it. You were saying that you, Rhonda, had a lot of agitation and anger, which triggered the anxiety. I believe you said something like that.
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Okay, that's great. I'm writing that down. So that being angry with yourself about any flaw, but in this case, a phobia can actually make the problem worse. Whereas talking to yourself in a compassionate way can lower the energy. And it also probably goes along with that common cause theory that I was talking about before. before, that there's an unknown variable that we've proven it exists.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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It's like the dark matter of human suffering, this one thing that causes a lot of negativity simultaneously. so that if you get agitated and increase your anger level toward yourself in this case, that that would be expected to intensify the sadness, the hopelessness, the anxiety, the loneliness, the shame, all of the negative feelings simultaneously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's beautifully said.
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Yeah, absolutely. Can I interject here for a minute? We're overlooking the acceptance paradox. Is that intentional?
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But isn't it a fact that I'm dumb having these phobias, Rhonda?
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So who won that? I did. Was that big or small? I think that was big. Was that big or huge? I think that was huge. Okay. All righty.
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I'll tell you how I would answer it.
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Absolutely. Well, I'm excited to hear what you guys did. And I saw the daily mood log, which will be in the show notes, which is very interesting in and of itself. But tell us how scary it was and tell us what tools you used to treat this difficult, resistant patient, Werner.
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Say, David, you're dumb because you have the fear of heights.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
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No, no, no, no. I have the fear of heights, that's for sure. And I'm often dumb about all kinds of things. You see, it's just the tip of the iceberg. The fear of the heights and the dumbness actually aren't related, but they both have their own glorious independent existences. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So who won that one?
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Yeah. I just find any attempt to minimize, you know, the self-criminal system can detract from, you know, the power.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, yeah. That's a toughie right there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And a super fun thing to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Go on the boardwalk and get some of that great junk food, snow cones and candy apples.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Man, this is creeping me out. Stop.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
You have to bring those things to life for me because I'm a dummy. The first thing is when you used imaginal exposure and you said by the third one, the percentages were lower that you could bring yourself to. Was that all imaginal or you did imaginal exposure and then did the drive home?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
You're really sinking low. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
How intense was the anxiety when you were driving over the overpass?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I had a couple other questions. You said you used breathing in some way and getting into the current moment in some way. I'm not familiar with what you were referring to there. I'm sure our listeners would love to hear how you use those ideas or techniques.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I see. Okay, thank you. Yeah. One message, just to give a simple message to our listeners, is that there's a kind of hopelessness that's a part of depression, but there's another kind of hopelessness that's a part of anxiety. And hopelessness is the greatest trickster In the universe, really.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And that if you have a phobia or social anxiety or, you know, some intense fear, you're probably telling yourself that it would just be impossible for me ever to overcome this. And and what you're you're saying is that if we approach the problem with a nice palette of techniques, we're not just going to try to do one thing and shoot for perfection.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But we're going to do a daily mood log and positive reframing and empathy and so on. you know, paradoxical double standard technique and, and, uh, you know, work on many different levels, identify all the distortions and these, and these thoughts, and then we're going to have to, uh, you know, flooding, uh,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
and gradual exposure, that we have a lot of tools and that it is possible to change the way you feel, even if the way you feel is intense anxiety or intense anxiety in certain situations. It's the message of hope through practical practice. methods that you can learn and use and implement with the help of a therapist, a friend, or even sometimes on your own. That's all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But I just want to push that message out there because we get sometimes caught up on how effective we're being as therapists and how fun it is to see someone improve and forget about that experience. intense terror that the person who's struggling is feeling and maybe has been feeling for years and avoiding things.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And by safety behaviors, what you're really just referring to is different subtle forms of avoidance so we don't have to confront our fear because it's so unpleasant to do so.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
The cognitive flooding helped with the real driving.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So I drove there easier.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Did you drive home Saturday night?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Awesome. Yeah. So how are you feeling now, Rhonda, having done all of this hard work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, we'll have you come down to this neck of the woods. Yeah, I want to do that. You can visit our recording studio in old Palo Alto, or you can come here to the house and come to a Sunday hike and dim some and all kinds of cool stuff.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. It was great seeing you. It always is, whether on a hike or at an intensive or wherever. Do you remember the first intensive you went to at South San Francisco Conference Center? I do. That was the intensive where I met Rhonda. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I remember that, too, because it was like a shock. I hadn't seen you since, you know, the work I did down at the Kaiser's in Los Angeles.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And yeah, and then I remember seeing you there. I said, well, that's that's awesome. You weren't coming up here for an intensive. And you're still hanging out. And I just love you, Werner. And I'm so proud of all you've accomplished, but also really care for you and appreciate your warmth and loyalty and fellowship and support over these many years.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
You hear all the time from podcast fans who love you and look up to you, but their love for you will be intensified 10 times after today's podcast. Really?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Do we have any announcements about anything, Rhonda, that you can think of?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, I think the app is out, the Feeling Great app, so you can try it for free.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
That's what I was just saying before you rudely interrupted me. Okay. I thought you were going to get off without telling us. Yeah. You just go to either of the app stores, and then you can try it for free and see if you like it. And then if you want to buy it, it's 27 cents a day. And if you can't afford it, we'll give it to you for free.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Just contact the feelinggreat.com at the website because we want everyone who wants it to be able to use it and change the way you think and feel. But today was a blockbuster show. And thank you so much, Werner and Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Can I ask two questions before you continue? Some of our audience might not know what safety behaviors are. I thought that was an interesting thing. And that's question number one. And once you've answered that one, maybe also address why are we talking about empathy when we're talking about a phobia and exposure? Where does empathy come in?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I love what you're saying, and I'll make one brief comment and then shut up so you guys can get into the good stuff. But I think... What the client loves to hear, or patient, or person, whatever word we're using, is I've been there and I know how awful that is. And I can show you the way out of the woods. And as opposed to the message, yes, I have many phobias too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I've never been able to overcome them, so I know how awful it is. But I'd be glad to help you with yours. So it has to be, you know, the empathy. And I've felt that combined with the message of hope and confidence. And I think that's a much stronger message to a client than, you know, refusing to share your feelings like some of us were trained to do during our training.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Like, you know, just never let the patient know anything about yourself. And I never understood it at the time when I was a resident, and I still don't understand it. But I think what you're saying, Werner, is really awesome and so important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And one other brief thing, as I remember, I think Edna Foa was commenting in an article or... talking to her or whatever, that some clients during exposure for OCD will use safety behaviors.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
In other words, even when they're being exposed to their fears, they'll use mental things to try not to think about the exposure or the anxiety they're feeling, and that this tends to make the exposure ineffective.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And so whenever I've worked with people with exposure, and let's say it's cognitive exposure, so they're imagining something they're afraid of and they've gotten up to 90% anxious, I'll always say, that's not high enough. Can you get it to 95%? And make it worse. And then when they get it to 95, I say, okay, you've got another five points. I really want you to freak out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Can you make it up to 100? And so I think that helps patients avoid that safety behavior of avoiding the fear. And it also paradoxically gives the patient a message that it's okay to freak out. It's okay to feel the most intense anxiety ever. We're going to survive this together as a team.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I didn't know you were in the Wednesday group. That's neat. Werner and I go back much further, though, than what you think. Oh, wow. Really? Yeah. Tell us. When did we first meet down in Southern California? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, we were up on Roos Ridge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
The Murrieta Studio. That's right, I forgot. This was the Murrieta Studio.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. With that avoidance, the anxiety will come back. It's not enough to overcome your anxiety. You have to keep after it on an ongoing basis. Right. Or it comes crumbling back in. Yep. And that sucks when that happens. And more power to you for tackling it again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Hello, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
because I exchanged a couple more emails from Rudolfo, and I probably should have included them in the show notes, but I've been really overwhelmed on 10, 11, 12-hour days, so my time has been a little shorter. But what was very interesting that he was saying, and this is some hints for you guys, that he has intrusive thoughts that somebody's murdering his wife or his
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
doing something to hurt his son and he says it's usually not himself but maybe sometimes himself and he says he loves them to death and he would never do anything to hurt them but he doesn't know why he's having these intrusive images and he doesn't know what to do about it. And now that you guys have some hidden hints, what is the cause and cure?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, and that is a common confusion. People have a lot of reasons not to accept themselves, and there's a kind of healthy acceptance and unhealthy acceptance, and most people can't distinguish them, so they think that acceptance means you get stuck in your crummy self, but actually acceptance is... the greatest change a human being can make.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And my comment is, why exactly is he having these thoughts and what would be the sudden 100% cure?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Those are some good and beautiful thoughts. Have any of you ever heard about the hidden emotion technique? When people are anxious, there's often some, the symptoms of the anxiety are often trying to tell us something. Our subconscious mind is trying to tell us something that our conscious mind can't accept because we're too nice. That's the hidden emotion model.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And I'll spill out what I'm thinking if it doesn't pop into your minds.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Exactly. And why does it have to come out through intrusive thoughts? Why doesn't he just acknowledge to himself that he's angry and talk it over with her?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, niceness, excessive niceness is one of the common... major themes in all anxiety. 75% of anxious people have this hidden emotion phenomenon. And so I think what's going on is he's this very nice, conscientious fellow. I think we'd all love him if we knew him. But like the rest of us, we sometimes, well, most of us don't get irritable with the people we care about. Isn't that true, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah. And then if you have a way of sweeping these feelings under the rug, they come out indirectly. And your anxiety is your body's way of telling you, hey, attend to this. This is your subconscious mind talking to you. I'm the poetry of your subconscious mind. and you see something happening to kill your wife, is it possible that you're feeling some anger toward your wife and son?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And if you're the kind of person who finds it hard to admit that, because you think, like so many of us have been taught, if you love someone, you'll never have conflict with them. You'll never be angry with them. And actually, the great thing about anxiety and recovery from it is it teaches us that there's far more to being human than what we think.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And it had to do with your theme, Matt, of accepting. Yeah, maybe these impulses are telling me I have some anger and some discomfort in this situation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And it would be time to express those feelings and open up and maybe read Feeling Good Together, learn the five secrets of effective communication, and use this as an opportunity to communicate with your wife and maybe son on a deeper and more open level. That would be my kind of simple take on it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And I've just found that is so often true in my own life because I've had, as you both know, so many forms of anxiety myself. And I've also had this niceness phenomenon that when something comes up and it's upsetting to me, I can't remember what I'm angry about or what I'm upset about. I just feel like the world's going to come to an end.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
When you accept yourself, you have made an awesome change. And I discovered someone who said that long before I did. You want to know who it was? The Buddha? Not that early. It was from the 20th century. Carl Rogers. I think he wrote on becoming a person. And he was all about listening and empathy and accepting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And then that's my body's way of telling me, David, you're upset with somebody or with something in your life. And your body is telling you to attend to that. And then when I figure out what it is and deal with the problem or express the feelings, in most cases my anxiety, whew, completely disappears. And I suspect that's what's going on here.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
We can't treat anyone or give out medical advice in this forum. We're just talking on a general level. But it certainly looks an awful lot like that to me. And this would be something for Rudolfo to consider. And I think I did raise this issue with him. And my memory of it is that he kind of did resonate with that and might be... going in that direction.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
So maybe he can get back to us later if he hears this podcast and checks it out and let us know what happened.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Kind of positive reframing and acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
You mean it's okay for me to have these horrible, intrusive thoughts of death to my loved ones? It's okay for other people, but not for you. Okay, great. And I had a similar one in my past. A doctor came to me. He was the nicest guy in the world, and he was working in a low community with few resources.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
He was a general practitioner and spending a lot of extra time talking to people and helping them out. He was just working a 60-hour week and making very little income. And then when he had, then he and his wife had their first baby, and he had something very similar to your patients, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
When he would carry the baby, they lived on the second floor of an apartment building, and he would have the fantasy, what if I go and throw the baby over the, not fall over, but throw the baby out of the balcony, over the edge, and kill the baby that way. And it turned out to be a very similar thing that what he wasn't dealing with was the fact that, you know, a baby.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I don't know if either of you have noticed, but they sometimes take up a lot of time in the middle of the night and changing diapers and, you know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
crying and needing time and attention, if you're already putting in 60 hours, you may very well be feeling resentment toward your baby, but you're not allowed to feel resentment because you think you're supposed to be this nice, idealistic person, which this fellow was. And once we brought that to conscious awareness, his solution was a little...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
different from your patients, but it had a similar wonderful outcome, was to decide to back off, that he just couldn't be doing all of this charity work and providing for his family at the same time, and that he'd have to actually change his schedule and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
carve out some time for himself to relax and unwind and be with the baby and stop trying to do so much for everybody, which was a beautiful thing about him, but it just simply wasn't workable. So I call that the hidden emotion technique, and it's very common today. among any of our listeners right now who are struggling with anxiety, this is one of four models I use in treating anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
There's four ways to get rid of anxiety, and this is one of the four. I usually use all four with every patient, so I don't try to have just one technique that cures everybody. I have many. I've got 40 techniques in my book, One Panic Attacks, that can be life-changing for people with anxiety, but this is one of the coolest of all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But one of the fellows on our app team found all of these quotes he had on how acceptance is the same as change. And it really surprised me. I think I might have read. read about him when I was in college. We had a class on third-force psychology, the so-called new psychology at the time, that was going to focus on peak experiences, not what was neurotic about people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, you guys too. And thank you all of you who sent in these questions. Keep them coming in because you keep us in business. We're not making a ton of money, but we're having a ton of fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, you guys get first shot at it, and I'll take up the rear and give my thoughts when you two have done your brilliant reflections.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, she's saying she enjoys being alone, and she wants to know if we think that's okay. So what's your vote?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Right. That can happen, too, if you prefer being alone and you don't always want to be going to the party.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, that'd be fun. We can maybe demonstrate that in a couple of minutes here. Good thinking, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But he was very much into acceptance, and I'd always associated his name with empathy, you know, Rogerian listening, right? That's the guy. But apparently he was heavily into acceptance as well, which I was excited to see that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, I love that, Matt and Rhonda. My answer would be along the same lines, but I have a personal investment here because I often prefer being alone and I have to work hard at saying no to things I'm invited to. And fortunately, my wife feels the same too. that we'd rather just hang out at home a lot. And I love being with our cat and with my wife or just unwind, watch some TV.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But the reason why I find this an interesting question is because some people think think that it's morally wrong to enjoy being alone, that you can't be truly happy unless you're involved with other people who you care about and who care about you, and that there's something kind of inherently inferior about the joy one would have when being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But for me, you know, it can be great like being with you guys right now. I could rate it at 100 out of 100. But I can also rate, when I'm alone with myself, might be 101 out of 100. It's just not less in any way whatsoever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And I think that's the interesting thing because there's some people, particularly in the mental health space, who have such strong beliefs that you must have love and be loved and to be with people you love to feel completely happy and fulfilled. And I can tell you, to me, that's just so much bullshit. To me, it's more of a miracle if you can be with people and have a good time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And one of the reasons I enjoy our Tuesday training group at Stanford and being with you guys on podcasts is that we're open and we're not trying to impress each other and we're just – We're just being genuine, which makes it nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But most of the time, I don't want to be in a social situation and kind of resent it if I'm feeling pressured to be in that social situation when I would really much prefer to be alone. So, Brittany, if you're crazy, you can join our club because we're crazy, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Right. Nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But a lot of people don't believe it because our society puts so much pressure on us to this love addiction and approval addiction. You need love and approval to feel happy and worthwhile. And in my book, it just isn't true. The only love and approval you need is your own.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And if you don't have that, being with all the people in the world isn't going to make you happy unless you've decided to love and accept yourself. And I've spent a lot of time alone and loved it. And I found out, you know, David, you're not a bad guy to hang out with. What a surprise.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, my cats love me, too. You know, it's just so easy to hang out with a cat. They're just so grateful if you just give them a little love and keep them fed and pet them a lot. That sounded kind of lame, but I really mean it. Matt, do you have cats?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, it's very dramatic, and we have a class on that that we're about to publish in the Feeling Great app, and that's one of the lessons in that class on acceptance. But unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by joy, and then unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by despair. Healthy acceptance is accompanied by laughter and lightness. Unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by cynicism and anger.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, it's sad. Sad. Oh, by the way, oh, no, never mind. I was going to announce something, but it's still private, so I'm not allowed to announce it without getting permission, I have a feeling. But some good tidings are coming in the direction of our family.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let's just do that. You're afraid that someone would judge you for enjoying being alone, right? Mm-hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, and so they judge you for being afraid of being alone?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Enjoying being alone, yes, yeah, and judge you. And who do you want to be? Do you want to be the judger or the judgee? The judgee. The person being judged. And Matt and I will be the critics from hell. Okay. We're going to try to shame you into enjoying being alone. Rhonda, we're having this get-together, and we really want you to come.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
You're going to exclude us? You're going to exclude us then? You don't want to be with us. You'd rather be alone than be with us. Is that what you're saying?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, I think I judge you real bad because anyone who enjoys being alone has to be some kind of kook. Well, then I accept that I'm kind of a kook. That's abnormal. That's abnormal and immoral.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
No, it's okay to be alone as long as you're miserable. But if you're happy being alone, you're some kind of a sociopath.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, you're the sociopath, not us. We love being together. We're people people. People, please, or people people. People lover. People lovers, yes. We love each other. But we hate you because you enjoy being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yes. And I too feel rejected and very hurt right now. And I'm going to be miserable all day because of you. Wow. That's giving me a lot of power over you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I'd love to hear more about that. I refuse to talk about it. I don't want to have anything to do with you. Okay. Well, this is kind of ridiculous, but this is the claim, right? Yeah. Who's winning, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Big or small? Big. Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah. Absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Now, what are we going to do here for John from Ireland today?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay. Well, there's an awful lot here, but a lot more writing if you read the show notes. And you guys, once again, share your thoughts, and then I'll see if I can add a little bit to it. He has this example, and he sent me, again, emails with like 30 should statements in a row. The only one in the show notes is I should have plans on a Saturday, which he believes 99%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And he says the distortions there are should, emotional reasoning, self-blame, mental filter, and discounting the positive. And then he does a cost-benefit analysis. What are the benefits of that thought? It lets me know when I'm not performing to the standards I set for myself. It shows me my passion and goal in life for doing fun and exciting things and motivates me, you know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Uh, that's, it's just, they're, they're, they're, they're just the opposite from each other. And there's a lot of distinctions between them, but, but essentially you see, um, to take the thought, uh, uh, I've, I've decided to accept my shitty self, my below average self, uh, And I've decided to accept the fact that I really am defective and there's nothing about me that doesn't need improvement.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And then the cost is that emotionally when I should like on myself, I beat up on myself relentlessly and this makes me feel depressed, anxious and lowers my self-esteem and reinforces my perfectionistic beliefs and other negative costs of hitting yourself with should statements. And then he says the benefits are 40 and the costs are 60. So I'll let you guys dive into this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Go for it, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, right. Absolutely. He'd have to convince us that of the motivational thing. And then after that, then the semantic technique works really well, but it won't work in the absence of the motivational piece. But let's just show how that works. You know, you can be him and I'll be his negative thoughts. Are you ready? For the semantic technique? Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah. Sounds good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
You know, John, I'm the negative John, and I want you to know that you should have plans on a Saturday.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Great. Now, you know, John, so you beat me on that one, but the fact is you should be doing better at work. You're too slow and probably you're going to screw up and ruin the whole project for the company.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
No, I just think you're condemned to slowness and inadequacy, and you should be better than you are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, okay, but what if you ruin the projects at work, and what if everyone else is way better than you, and they find out about you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, I think that's great. That's a beautiful example. And again, I did quite a bit of exchange with this fellow, and I think he also has some kind of shyness and social anxiety mixed in with it. So he He got up the courage to tell one of his colleagues that he thinks he's working awfully long hours and not being productive enough and barely keeping his head above water.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And are those thoughts a reason for suicide or a reason for celebration? That's the issue. And when you get acceptance, it's not like a death warrant. It's like a celebration of birth. You wake up in a whole new universe. You've changed and the whole world around you has changed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And he told her that he thought he was the only one who feels that way. And he was delighted when she told him she's been feeling exactly the same way. And he felt that exchange made him feel like a member of the human race again. And so in addition to the great techniques that you mentioned, I think that to use exposure techniques and confront his
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
his fear of people and began to open up and use self-disclosure and also the survey technique to tell people how you're really feeling inside and ask how they're experiencing things and how they might be thinking of you and use that as an opportunity to be vulnerable and to actually get closer to people because I think one of the problems of being alone isn't that you can't be happy when you're alone but
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
you may be missing out on some realistic feedback and knowing how reality works, knowing how other people really are, because sometimes we've got fantasies that other people are so much better than we are and so much smarter and point of fact. Most people
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
People that I know struggle considerably, and even people who are very successful almost always have many blind spots and many weaknesses as well. I'm just babbling, so I'll shut up, but that was my contribution to that question. Loved it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay. And that's paradoxical agenda setting, which is one of the key components of team therapy. And that's the thing that has really opened up the doors for rapid recovery, rapid change for nearly all of the people that I work with. And the early days when all we had was, you know, 100 or more methods, it was great to have all those methods.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But finding this resistance and motivational piece has transformed therapy from months and months of slow progress at all to almost overnight transformations for a great many people. we don't have the answers for everybody, but certainly my capacity to work with people rapidly and effectively has just gone up incredibly. And I think you've been experiencing that also for a decade or two now, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But in unhealthy acceptance, you think it means giving up, never being able to find meaning or specialness or joy in living. And it's something you have to experience to understand. It's like seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time. And when you see the Grand Canyon, it takes your breath away. And you might have seen it on TV. You might have seen postcards of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, that's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And would that apply to any of the people who are listening to the podcast today and are struggling to change and have been failing in their efforts with or without a therapist to change? Probably 90% of them, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Is that something that you would do? Yeah, brilliant thought because it is an addiction. And next time I – I run into a shooter, people who are shooting on themselves. I'm going to try that exact technique as well as, of course, all of our regular positive reframing and, you know, types of thing. And then the gentle ultimatum, the sitting with open hands. But that could be another nice tool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And we were demonstrating that earlier today. with a recording for the app that we might post on YouTube. And I demonstrated the triple paradox and the devil's advocate technique with a colleague who was struggling with overeating. And we had a lot of fun with it. You know, we haven't seen it or anything because we just recorded it before we did this podcast today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But I think it can apply, those tools can apply to any situation that has an addictive component. And definitely should statements, there's shoulds against yourself. We get addicted to that and that causes guilt, shame, and depression. Should statements against other people, that's the cause of war, violence, hatred. marital conflict, relationship conflict, violence,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And then there's should statements against the world and that, you know, the world shouldn't be so screwed up. The world should be better. And those should statements cause frustration, resentment, and a lot of happiness as well. And in all three cases, there's powerful motivational factors keeping those shoulds alive because people are afraid if I give up this should addiction,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I'll be caving in, bad things will happen, I'll be giving up on my goals for my life, I'll be giving up on my idealism and my chance to score big and make some wonderful achievement. But as it turns out, the reality is just the opposite. The shoulds, in my experience, just... hold me back and create all kind of angst and negative feelings that never lead to creativity or breakthroughs.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But you've got to acknowledge the positives and the shoulds, the way they seem to be working for us as a first step to see, is this something I am interested in letting go of? And maybe they're working for me, so I should keep shoulding away until I don't have any should left in my poopy bottom.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But you have no idea what it's like until you see it. I remember the first time I saw it, it just took my breath away. I said, I heard there was a hole in the ground, but I had no idea this is what they were talking about. It's majestic beyond belief, really. And that's what the first, the moment you get acceptance, it's that kind of experience.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And then there's another technique I love called how many minutes. Say, David, you should use should statements and criticize yourself. Say that to me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, great. Would you like me to criticize myself some more? Absolutely. Yeah, a good person would do that. How many minutes a day would you be recommending or hours? Just constantly until you're better. Well, I've been doing it for years now, and I haven't gotten any better. So, you know, maybe you just want me to do it forever?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, thank you. That's a wonderful idea, but I think I'm probably going to not go for that. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, I know. I've been taking bad training from Rhonda, Matt, and David.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, that's called negative practice or worry break. Schedule time. You can do that for anxiety or should statements or anything. Just schedule at a certain time. How many minutes a day of misery do I need in order to be a peak performer? And then if you need three minutes a day, then schedule three minutes to beat up on yourself intensely. Or if you need ten minutes, try ten minutes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
It's an interesting concept and it's an interesting technique. Well, does anyone else have any wise words? I want to thank Rodolfo. This might be your first question, Rodolfo, but it was a humdinger. Brittany, this wasn't your first question. You've actually been live on a podcast with us once, maybe twice before, and you always ask great questions. So keep them coming.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And John from Ireland, we... We love you and really appreciate your interest and your kind comments and good, great questions. And all the rest of you, keep your questions pouring in here. We're publishing now on YouTube so your comments can appear. on the video version of our show, and they'll appear on YouTube. And so far, we've been able to keep up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I've responded to all of the comments we've gotten so far. We've only been on YouTube for a few, you know, podcasts so far. It's something brand new, but here we are. We're in video. We love you all, and we look forward to seeing you again next week. Thanks, David and Rhonda. It's a joy to be with you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah. I'm dancing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And by the way, I'm recording from our new recording studio in old Palo Alto. And I've got three cameras on me and all kinds of lights and stuff. It's pretty cool. This is our fourth time recording. We're recording stuff for the app and stories to publish on YouTube. And we've been having a lot of fun with it. Jeremy, Matt, was with us on all four of our recording sessions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And we're both really, really excited about it. We're trying to get all the David stories recorded. And we've already recorded 20 stories.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Do you feel joy or do you feel despair? Do you feel laughter or do you feel cynicism? Do you feel close to others, or do you feel alone on an island? Are you comfortable being vulnerable and open, or are you hiding your feelings behind a false front? It's questions like that. Unhealthy acceptance is the same as severe depression, and healthy acceptance is like healthy joy and liberation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Hello, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
They're actually the opposite feelings. I have a table in the class on acceptance in the app, and there's about seven or eight contrasts. You know, in unhealthy acceptance, you feel ashamed. You feel defective. And in healthy acceptance, you feel whole. You feel joy. You feel excitement about life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And these words won't allow you to understand what healthy acceptance is, but they're just words that will let you know when you're there and when you're not. But most people, when they think of acceptance of yourself or others or the world, they think about the unhealthy version, so they're afraid of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And they pull back from it and keep beating up on themselves and others, hoping that some good will come from it. And that's... That's one of the biggest traps human beings fall into.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And it's kind of what we're trying to turn around with our Team CBT and with our Feeling Great app is to give people a path out of the woods, out of the place you're trapped and to get into the sunlight and to get this sense of freedom and joy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah. Say to me, David, I understand you're kind of defective.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I know, and accepting that has been one of the greatest sources of joy in my life. Because, you know, one of the cool things about it? No, what? I found all kinds of other defective people who like to hang out together, like Matt May and Rhonda Borowski and a lot of others, and we have a hell of a good time. That was brilliant. I love that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Great to be here. Hi, Matt. Good to see you. It's always great hanging out with you, too. Some of my favorite times in life are being with you, too. Me, too. It's a pleasure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, yeah. All right, shall we dive into our questions for today? Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, well, I'll let you, as usual, let you folks have the first shot at it, and then I'll throw in my two cents worth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
All right. Are we ready for Ronda? That was great, Matt. I love what you're saying. So much wisdom in it. How about peeling more layers off of this onion and give us your idea, Ronda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Thanks. My thinking, you both have totally awesome answers. I don't treat things like ADHD or OCD or try to figure out what people have because we don't have mental disorders for the most part. But we have a lot of feelings and thoughts and symptoms that can be upsetting. And so I think what you said, Ron, is just so absolutely true. You start out with empathy and then you...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
look at the the the patient's agenda and and the resistance and you melt away the resistance and then you can put together a daily mood log and put a thought in the in the middle of it of a recovery circle and choose 10 or 15 or 20 ways to challenge that thought which might be i shouldn't be having these uh horrible intrusive thoughts i have a slight advantage from you to
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, we actually, what we didn't mention was that we spent a couple of years in Hong Kong, too. You know, when we were like six. And we had to go to the zoo there to wrestle animals.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, sure. That's cool. You brought us a list of great questions and various things, Matt, but including a list of 10 questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
thoughts that you've seen about by people doing a daily mood log about bullying because bullies can certainly hurt you physically but if they can't make you feel ashamed or guilty or less than or inadequate only your thoughts can do that and so that is one type of freedom that's fairly accessible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
The art form of how to interact with the bully is quite a different issue and equally important for sure. But I'll read a few of these. It was all my fault. I deserved it. This happened because I'm bad, weak, defective, different, et cetera. So that would be the self-blaming response. And one thing, I have this, what I call the contract, the abuse contract that...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
we enter into with someone who's abusing us. And I'm not saying that all human beings do, but I think... you know, a good half or more of human beings do. For example, I can remember a woman I treated who had horrible, sadistic sexual abuse from a babysitter when she was a little girl from age 5 to 10.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And the babysitter said, if you tell on me, I'll murder your sister, who was two years younger. But her thoughts were, it was my fault. If anyone found out, they'd think I liked it. and one other that slipped my mind. But the three-way contract between the abuser and the abused is I get to abuse you for my pleasure. That's the first part of the contract.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And as you say, Manuel and Matt, it can be sexual abuse, it can be physical abuse, it can be financial, it can be psychological abuse. Whatever. The second is that this is all on you. This is happening to you because you deserve it. And I'm superior and totally innocent. You're the dirty one. You're the bad one, the defective one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then the third part of the abuse contract is, if you tell any, we have to keep this secret, even from ourselves. that there's anything wrong or abnormal going on here. And if you tell anyone, then it's going to be the last thing you ever do. And this was a very bright woman. And it was 40 years later when I treated her. But she was still following those rules. She had never told anyone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
She was still feeling guilty and ashamed. The man who abused her eventually got in a bar fight and got shot and murdered when she was 10. So that stopped the abuse. But she kept suffering for the next 40 years. But I really thought she characterized that abuse contract. And she was an extremely brilliant woman. And yet she had subconsciously bought into that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I think the bullies rely on the weaker ones to buy into that contract. And that's part of what's so horrible about it. And that's where we can help people with these negative thoughts, the self-blaming thoughts. And the self-critical thoughts. I'm done on my rant there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Wow, that's awesome. I love that. And you just said the name of our podcast, the topic of our podcast today is on bullying.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It's on brand, yeah. It's not a funny topic, a very serious and horrible topic, but one that I think is really needed. We're lucky to have you, Manuel, and Matt, to give us a little of the inside scoop on the best way to think about bullying and to change the way you think if you're being bullied, which is probably half of what we'll talk about. And then the other half would be...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So I want to see if I understand part of what you just said, which was really good. I think you said it's going to be kind of okay and inevitable to feel some embarrassment, humiliation, shame. anxiety, hurt, fear, anger, when it's happening.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But we can give you some tools to talk back to the thoughts that are creating those feelings so that you don't have to be carrying around those feelings for prolonged periods of time and that we can learn to... to have peace of mind, I think you're saying, for longer and longer periods of time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Like you maybe can't prevent yourself from having automatic reactions in the here and now, but one can go back, write down your negative thoughts, recognize the distortions in them, and talk to yourself in a more realistic and loving and accepting way. Is that kind of what you were saying?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Manuel, it sounds like, you know, I'm reminded of a kid in my neighborhood that lived in one of my neighbor's children who was a boy probably in sixth grade who had been bullied the whole school year by a girl in his class. And he felt so shamed about it that he didn't tell his parents. He didn't.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
what to say, how to use the five secrets of effective communication or whatever verbal strategies to respond to the bully. So you've got your inner dialogue, which is the way you're thinking about yourself, the messages you're giving yourself if you're being bullied, and then the outer dialogue is what you're going to say to the other person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
He might have told his teacher, but the teacher was just so busy with a huge class number that she didn't pay too much attention to it. And the only reason that came forward is because eventually this girl threw a shoe at him and he hit it and he came home with a mark on his forehead. And then it came out. And I'm wondering from what you've described –
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Is there, you know, and of course working with the kids and the thoughts that they're having, this question is a little bit off that subject, but is there any training for teachers and school personnel besides parents on how to address it, identify it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And Matt and Manuel have some fantastic answers to those two questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We have time. We have one more minute, so I'm going to talk real fast. Yeah, we don't particularly keep track, but, you know, we're doing fine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Could we demonstrate two things that, you know, I don't want to push it too hard, but from the internal point of view, maybe we could do some externalization of voices or something, or, you know, double standard technique, or, you know, identify the distortions in some of the thoughts that might...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
trigger shame like did i don't want to push you too much into this position but i was just thinking like did did did you have negative feelings like when you were bullied about being poor short four eyes uh
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, could you just start off by explaining what you mean by bullying?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
called a fag if you were or race or things like that did you have negative thoughts and feelings and can you recall what what what some of them were or maybe the the ones of kids who have come to you for your wonderful help as a psychiatrist well sure i mean i think the biggest one that we all kind of feel is that gosh what if everybody thinks that you know yeah
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's cool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, so this would be kind of like double reattribution. I just made that up and I don't know much. I thought I better use some big words and impress people pretty quick here. The one piece of the reattribution is instead of just, you know, just...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Instead of thinking, you know, why did they do this in terms of what did I do wrong or what's wrong with me, to be thinking, you know, what kind of pressures are they under or what kind of living situation are they coming from? What kind of pain are they hiding or what are they trying to achieve? And then you also mentioned... responding in non-defensive or adversarial ways.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I would have a suggestion if people want to try, and keep in mind that nine out of ten of my suggestions end up on the cutting room floor, so that's fine. But I was thinking we could do some feared fantasy or externalization of voices on the kinds of thoughts that one of us or all of us might be having when we're bullied and see if we can crush those thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then secondly, we could do kind of a feared fantasy thing and practice, you know, what is going to be effective ways of responding to a bully. So we could go into the theater of bullying, you know, and interact with the bully from hell to do the verbal responses. And then we can go into the...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
mind of of someone who's being bullied and see if we can help help crush those those thoughts would that make sense yeah yeah so oh i was going to just use another quick example that basically what you're saying and then we'll do the example that in in a very thorough way which is you know like i'll tell people is that you know if
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But essentially, just to simplify what you're saying, which is already simple, is to say that we do have a choice about how we're going to interpret a situation, how we're going to think about it, and we can get into a hypnotic trance of despair and anger and humiliation and guilt and shame and thinking about what's wrong with me and...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
woe be me and this is awful or we can be thinking about that person like where are they coming from you know why are they doing this is this how they get their kicks their thrills are they feeling insecure on some level whatever is going on with them and that also that could have to do with our body language and how we respond to them because we might say oh wow that
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
that's even more colorful than the one you gave me yesterday, which itself was pretty far out. And I can't wait to see what you'll come up with for tomorrow. And I have to hand it to you. And you might consider a career as a horror novelist like Stephen King, and you could write awesome novels and make movies and make millions of dollars. I've got to hand it to you. You are good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're a good shit, as they so often say.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So Manuel, can I – so instead of focusing on I must be a terrible person to being picked on, you're encouraging that child or whoever is being picked on to observe what's happening in the moment kind of in a neutral way. Like, oh, that's interesting. This is what's going on right now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
They can invite me to beat up on myself for the next 12 hours, but I'm not obligated to accept the invitation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, right. And that would be a great verbal response, too. Yeah, so you don't do nearly as good a job beating up on me as I do on myself, but I'll have to hand it to you. You come up with, you're more creative than I am.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, and you can put me number one on your fan club because I've been admiring you for a long time, you big, cute guy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, yeah. See, a lot of people do think about me a lot, and I'm just so glad to include you in the group.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, yeah. That's good. That's good. Okay, now, I'm telling myself that I'm a terrible, horrible person, and all these people are laughing at me and looking down on me, and I'm feeling incredibly ashamed and humiliated. I'm feeling weak and inadequate, and this fellow's really strong and... I might have to use my karate and kick him in the testicles.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And it just hurts me so badly to hurt someone like that. No, I'm just being ridiculous now. But I'm just feeling like I'm just a loser. So what help can you give me?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Let's do some externalization of voices. You want to, Matt and Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Either way. Sure. Sure, we can do. Rhonda and I will be Matt's negative thoughts. In this exercise, actually all of us are named Matt. Okay. And we're going to be Matt's negative thoughts. These are the things he's telling himself. And we're going to attack him with his own thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And your job, Matt, is to speak in the first-person eye and see if you can defeat us and you can use three strategies, the acceptance paradox, the self-defense paradigm, the counterattack technique, or a fourth option would be other, any other technique you want to use. So give us a few negative thoughts so we'll know what your negative thoughts are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'm worthless. I'm a loser. But let's just start with that, okay?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And also you've listed ten really scary negative thoughts, really painful negative thoughts on the sheet that you passed to us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, okay, good one. Everyone's looking down on that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, I'm going to name it Manuel because it's so big and ugly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, yeah, yeah. Manuel, you also said, everyone hates me. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, are you ready, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay. Now, keep in mind, this is not training for interacting with the bully. This is interacting with the inner bully, the thoughts that you give yourself and how to talk back to those. Because in the last analysis, you're the only one who can really bully yourself, although that might sound uncharitable. But could I talk to you for a minute, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yes, I am, and I'm aware that the kids at school were kind of bullying you and laughing at you, and I wanted to tell you why that is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No, it's not a hypothesis. It's a fact. Oh, a fact. A fact of the universe, and that's because you're worthless, and that's why everyone hates you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay. Who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay. You can hit him, Rhonda, with the same exact thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, Matt, you know, you're kind of worthless because everybody hates you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And now is this externalization of voices or feared fantasy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, yeah, okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And actually, after each of Matt's responses, let's see, ask him who won, and if he won small, big, or huge, and see if he can get up to huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I mean, they're going to be different. So we have to know which universe we're in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I was thinking this is still externalization of voices.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But I can move it into food fantasy. So then you're Manuel's negative self. Your name is—and what's Manuel's name?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Manuel?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And this is a girl.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Let's have it be my negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, so you're both Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're both Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And you're going to be the positive, self-loving Rhonda, and Rhonda's going to be the self-critical Rhonda. And she's going to speak in the second person, you, and you can speak in the first person, I. And she's the self inside you that's going to try to tear you down. Is that right, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then you see if you can defeat that negative voice in your head.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Okay. You know, I heard you had a crush on Danny, but you're not cute enough to go out with Danny. You're kind of ugly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Who won that, Manuel? Me, the negative, attacking voice, or you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Like your response was weak and it didn't work.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's true. We all agree. Now, let's do a role reversal and see if Rhonda can model something more effective. You be the negative Rhonda and Rhonda will be the positive Rhonda and say exactly the same thing that she said to you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, ouch, ouch. Well, I am really gawky. And I'm probably, you know, I am pretty ugly for my age. There are lots of prettier girls than me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
All that is totally true, and I guess it doesn't really matter because I sit next to Danny in my math class, and we hang out together all the time, and we are doing homework together, and I guess he doesn't care that I'm ugly and gawky because we're having a lot of fun together, and that's really what matters.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So who won that, Rhonda? I think I did. Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I think that was big.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Big or huge?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It actually feels huge. They've got huge enough.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, I like that. You did?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
date you or somebody it's not you're not worthless i like how you did that well thank you i'd love to hear david's response david could you uh play play ronda and when we're already at huge i can't oh yes i can i can give a better response than that sure you want to hit me hit me with it ronda or you want to hit me with it man or i'll be the positive ronda
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Could you comb your hair a little Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I am kind of gawky and awkward, and I'm at that time of life where things are rapidly changing and evolving, but I have a lot of fun with Danny, and I can survive if I have a crush on him and he doesn't have a crush on me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We get along really well, and we study together and have fun together, and I give myself a lot of points for that because I don't see him doing that with a lot of other girls. And I think we are really good friends, and that's not a bad thing. But there is one person who really seems to hate me. It's actually not Danny. I just have one real enemy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's you. And so to quote the Buddha, stick it where the sun don't shine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Right. And so there I was just taking the very excellent thing that you had done, Rhonda, but I was adding the counterattack technique. Now, the counterattack technique is not necessarily something you use on the bully. I think we'd use other more humorous techniques. But this is something you use on the bully, the inner bully, the bully in your brain.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And it's very powerful to stand up to that bully because that's the only bully that can ever make you feel bad. And I might say, too, to that inner bully, that sex appeal is kind of a learned thing. And to tell you the truth, I think I am learning a little bit by my fun interactions with Danny that are sometimes playful and kind of cool and awesome.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I'm actually proud of how Danny and I are doing. And... You know, if we don't end up getting married and having six children, that's fine. He'll just be one of the stepping stones along the way to learning to grow up and find love. But right now I want to be, you know, happy with myself, and that comes by not buying into you constantly in my ear putting me down.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, that that would be powerful, actually, because that would be a combination of changing the focus. And I feel statements drawing attention to the game that's going on and sharing, sharing your feelings without trying to hide them. Yeah, man, you're you're really powerful and.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You've got some, I'm sure you've got a powerful punch and kind of a powerful punch comes out of your mouth sometimes too. And I say, you know, touche, you're winning. Yeah. Way to go. You know, you got style. You're one of the biggest put-down artists here at our high school. And your fame is spreading. Yeah, we nailed it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Sure. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
A little toad. Yeah, wow, Lindsay. Actually, you are one of the most beautiful girls in the school. And, you know, maybe you want to be talking to Danny instead of me. And that would be okay with me. I mean... Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just a friend of his, so if you want to hang out with him, go for it. I'm just a person that he likes to hang out with in math class, and that's okay with me. Good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Who won there? I won, but it didn't feel huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It didn't feel enough. I mean, like, here you are. You're the most beautiful. Yeah, you're right. You're beautiful. And if you want to hang out with him, go for it. I don't need to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'm just— Do a role reversal with Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, it was kind of a fake response. Right. So do a role reversal. Matt will be the— I'm Rhonda now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, I'm Lindsay. Yeah. Yeah, so I saw you batting your eyelashes at Danny in class the other day, and you're just fooling yourself. You're totally an idiot if you think he's going to like you because you're just so gawky and ugly. He'd never go out with anyone like you. Oh.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, we have to ask Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I mean, it felt like you won for sure. But it also feels unrealistic to imagine a teenage girl saying that stuff.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But, I mean, I love that you're saying it. And it definitely felt like that was a huge win for you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That was huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It felt like a huge win, but I can't imagine another girl. I'm thinking of a 13-year-old girl who's one of my clients and who's sort of a shy kid.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You wouldn't want to teach them how to do that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I think it's what you're saying.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No. I'm saying that I think that takes a lot of courage and self-awareness.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No, I think that was actually a huge moralistic win. And I love that. And I love that you're saying that it's a motivational, would you be willing to turn your enemy into your friend and say something like that? Like, yeah, you're beautiful. And I, I really admire you and I don't live up to your standards. And I would love to know, like, how do you do your hair and your makeups?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Like, I would like to be more like you. Cause honestly, I do like Danny and I want him to like me too. And if you could show me how to do that, I'd love it. But, I also don't totally understand why you're being so mean to me. I've never really bugged you in the past. We hardly even know each other. So maybe you could also tell me what I've done to hurt you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But I've been admiring you from a distance, and you're really fantastic at what you do. And I'm number one in your fan club. I like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I think you've got to do the internal dialogue first with externalization of voices until the person has really seen through the bullshit that they're giving themselves and can talk back to their own negative thoughts and not feel so threatened. Just say, try to bully David right now. Just say, Dave, go ahead, just say something, whatever you want. This will be a feared fantasy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
82 in September. You can bully elderly people. Go ahead.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Better make it real than we can translate it into the fourth grade level. But just try it. I dare you. I defy you. I'm ready. Sock it to me. Rhonda, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
David, look, everybody hates you. You're pretty worthless. Everyone looks down on you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No, no, you've got it all wrong. A lot of people admire me. I think they must be desperate or have very low standards, but I can tell you I have tons of flaws, and people should probably look down on me more than they do. And there are thousands of people out there who look down on me and think I'm a kook, and they're probably half right or 75% right. Are you one of them?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'm not anymore. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So who won that one?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You definitely won that one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Big or small?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Big. Huge. Also because you made it kind of funny. Like, you know, finding agreement in it and then making it funny. It takes the power and the anxiety and the animosity out of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But the key to it is that it didn't threaten me because I've done my inner dialogue. Because, see, you've got to be able to trigger my self-hatred. That's the first key to overcoming bullying is learn to love yourself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, that's such an important part. Could you just say that again?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, the key to overcoming bullying is learning to love yourself. Now, I'll be a fourth grader, and you can try to bully me, Rhonda, or Manuel, or Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, you know, I love this shirt. I think I just have, I must have weird taste. But, you know, I love the way you look. It's just kind of a brown T-shirt. It's kind of a hunky, awesome look. That's cool. Mike, where did you get that one? Maybe I'll get one of those myself and wear it tomorrow.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay. And then how was it a slam dunk?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, and agreeing with you. A disarming technique plus stroking. But you can't do that if you're feeling threatened. That's why you've got to tend to your own inner bully first. The first thing is to change that inner dialogue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Actually, that's exactly what we do do every morning. We're in this strange religious cult, and we kind of do that. And I'm glad you noticed it because most kids don't seem to notice. And we're looking for soliciting new members. We have comic book, Jesus comic books and crap like that. And you can come on over and roll in the Sharpies with us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Okay. Hey, I heard from Sam that the coach pulled you out of the baseball game on Saturday in the middle of the fourth inning because you're such a lousy baseball player. You should drop off the team.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
To tell you the truth, he should have pulled me out before I started. I can't hit the ball, and I'm not good at throwing or catching. But other than that, I have one of the top games in the United States. But if you think that was bad, you should have seen me at football practice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I won't talk about it if you don't want me to, but you're awesome at what you do. And if I talk about it, I think it'll help you with your reputation as being a bad boy. And, you know, the bad boys get all the girls and stuff, but whatever it is you prefer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, you probably will, and I'll see if I can get in a lucky blow to your nose, but I have no doubt that you're going to win because you're much stronger and bigger, and you're a tremendous athlete, and I've admired you, actually. You're good-looking, and you're smart, and you're... You know, I would say you're probably the coolest guy in school.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And you can beat me up if you want, but keep remember that I'm number one on your fan club.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, okay, that's good, yeah. That'd be kind of like a massage. Can I tickle your midsection too? Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're going to tell people I'm a what now?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, that's the least of my faults. But that's a starting place. But I can give you a lot more, you know, a lot more of my faults to spread around. And yeah, go ahead and say those things. I've actually been taking slut training at the local Y. And so I'm glad it's beginning to show. I used to be very sincere about And I couldn't get any dates. And boy, has my life changed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Maybe not. I think these things, you've got to reflect on it. Let's do a role reversal, and Manuel will show us the huge win. Manuel, I'm just going to tell everyone in school that you're a little slut and a whore, and you probably want to suck my dick, you little fucking whore. I'm going to tell everybody. I can give the answer to it, too, if you want. You want to hear the response?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, let's hear the response. Yeah, please do. In fact, my cousin is a reporter for the local newspaper, and you could talk to him and tell him. He might even write it up and quote you. You could get some really cool publicity that way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I'll repeat what I've said two or three times during this podcast, and some people may hear it and some people may not. But it starts with the internal dialogue, and you've got to be able to talk back to your own thoughts. Those statements could never have an effect on a human being. Those statements do not upset children in grammar school.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
only what they're telling themselves, and that's where the work begins. And once the person is no longer feeling threatened by their own inner self-abuse, then it's much easier to take a lighthearted response to someone else who's trying to bully you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And a little humor, stroking, disarming, non-defensiveness. Just say, yeah, if you just spread those slut rumors, I would appreciate it, because that's actually one of my lesser flaws, and my status might actually go up a little bit. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, right. Well, why doesn't maybe Matt and then Rhonda and then Manuel and David, or we can have Rhonda be the last word, just summarize kind of what we've been doing today. And I don't know if it was any good or not. I have... I went into hypnotic states of helplessness and awfulness when you were describing, you know, being bullied in really adverse circumstances.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I, you know, I was bullied by this guy named Red in like seventh grade or sixth grade. And he says, why don't you come on over to my house and I'll fight you right now. And, you know, I didn't obviously go over to his house, but it was very humiliating. And I'd like to run into that guy and bust his effing nose even today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Red, if you're listening to this podcast, I'm ready for you now, big boy. You're not dead already, and I hope you are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I just wanted to ask Manuel one thing before. I want to hear your summary, Matt. But Manuel, you said that you were going to tell us the signs for parents and teachers to look out. Like that kid in my neighborhood who was bullied for a school year, and nobody identified it. How can parents or teachers identify if a kid's being bullied?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Great. Thank you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I have two other small contributions. I think kids will always tell you how they're feeling if you ask in a specific way. Like if they understand 0 to 100 or 0 to 10, you could just say you look like you might be feeling a little sad or down or unhappy. How unhappy are you feeling on, say, a 0 to 10 scale? Hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then if they give you like a 6 or an 8 or a 10, that's, you know, how anxious or scared do you feel on a 0 to 10? Do you feel alone or lonely on a 0 to 10? How ashamed do you feel? How inadequate do you feel or inferior? How hurt? How angry? How... How discouraged do you feel?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I have one question. I won't be saying a lot in this episode because I don't have a lot of knowledge. You guys do, except where I can contribute is on the messages we give ourselves to make ourselves miserable. But what I wanted to ask about is, to me, I've pretty much always viewed human nature as having a duality
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Those are simple words, and kids will tell you, you know, on a zero to ten or a zero to five, just say ten is the most and zero is not at all. They'll usually tell you what their feelings are. Well, I guess you would have more knowledge of that than I would, Manuel, because you're working with kids constantly, but that is one thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then another thing that I said that could be misinterpreted by listeners to the show is, When I'm talking about how to change the internal dialogue in the child's head, I'm talking about techniques that a good therapist can use. But the parent's role would be to empathize and provide warmth and support, like the podcast we did on how to help and how not to help.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You've got to have an agenda with someone like what you're saying, Matt, with the child before you can teach them these techniques to love and accept yourself. And if the parents just jump in and try to teach those things to the kid, it will backfire.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, right. That's nice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
What did he say?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, cool. Very nice. I love that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, the only thing I would add that to me...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Hello, David, and welcome to all of our listeners around the country and throughout the world and the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast, and it's episode 417. We have two special guests, Matt May, who's a frequent visitor to our podcast. Hi, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
seemed incredibly important is before you can respond to a bully outside of you that you have to overcome the bullying that you're doing to yourself and and work on you know whatever it is that triggers your self-hatred so that when someone does bully you or say something mean or belittling that's there is no response there is no self-hatred and you can just then laugh or praise or join in with them
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It's actually fun once you're not buying into it. Yeah, it can be like a game. You know, Rhonda, could I talk to you for a minute?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You know, you're not an important person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, there's nothing more true than that, especially being amongst you three men.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're killing it. That's knocking it out of the park.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Thanks. Well, I have a good teacher.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. It's kind of fun, isn't it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It is kind of fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But maybe Manuel could come back because one thing we didn't talk about is cyberbullying. Maybe Manuel, would you be interested in coming back again to talk about cyberbullying one day?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Now we can, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
No, I can't hear you at all. Oh, no.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I want to thank you for coming in, Manuel, on your vacation. I know your fishing is one of the big deals in your life, like what we used to do when we were traveling in Africa when we were about eight and when we caught those enormous 30-pound trout and then we would eat them raw. That was some of my favorite memories. But I know that you're having fun on your vacation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
of a positive, joyous, loving side to human nature and an inherently dark, sadistic, hurtful side of human behavior, and that they're both absolutely inherent things. in human nature uh you know a lot of people the pope recently made the statement that human beings are inherently good and and you know to me that sounded like a lot of non-nonsense a lot of silly overly idealistic thinking
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Your vacation today and your fishing this morning, and it really touches me for you to come in and talk about something you feel so strongly about and you have so much wisdom about and to share it with the three of us and with the six people who are listening. Thank you, six people. I hope this helps. Love you, Manuel.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We found one of those in the fountain right in front of our house.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Wow. You will jump into the boat. You will jump into the boat.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions. If you want to support the show, please share the podcast online
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But I think the thing that's hard for people to grasp is that in all of us, and you see it out in the open when someone's bullying someone, they're really getting a sexual and sadistic thrill out of inflicting pain and humiliation on someone who can't defend himself or herself or themself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But I'm just throwing that out there to see if you guys have that same view of human nature that they're bullying. It seems to me it's like a great example of sadistic behavior is what it is to my way of thinking.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And we have a repeat guest, Manuel Sierra, who is a child and adolescent psychiatrist currently living in Idaho. He did his fellowship at Massachusetts General Hospital, and he did his residency with Matt at Stanford. And one special thing about Manuel that many people don't know is that he grew up with David and Tom.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Couldn't it also be a learned behavior? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Together they wrestled bears and mountain lions, which I'm sure we'll hear more about in the podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, it's motivating. it's a challenging situation to raise a child who has the condition that her daughter has. And so when she's telling herself, I should be a better mom, it's, it's constantly motivating her to be the best caretaker that she could be for her daughter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I imagine that she's revolved her life now around parenting her daughter. And so she has an identity about being a good mom or the best mom. And so that thought, I should be a better mom, you know, keeps her fulfilling that self-identity and that, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I think to a certain at a certain point, could one disadvantage be that she beats up on herself because of that thought? We were saying that one of the disadvantages of having that thought, I should be a better mom, is that she would beat up on herself, leading to feelings of anger and resentment. And what else did you say, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, so Ollie wrote a pretty interesting question. I think we could rift off this for a while. Could team therapy, team CBT therapy be helpful to someone in solitary confinement? Dear David, I'm so glad the app is finally available to the public. I was one of the lucky people who got to take part in the beta testing, and I got to personally experience what a life-changing tool it could be.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So she used the semantic technique.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And then the thing that— Oh, can we read her whole writing? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. So she rewrote that thought. I should be a better mom. And she said, I want to be a mom to my daughter and help her along and invest myself into her. But I also want to treat myself the way I treat her. She has a right to live a happy and fulfilling life, but so do I. Our needs and our desires are equally important and deserve the same attention and care.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I can only continue to look after my daughter well if I look after myself too and take myself and my needs and my desires as seriously as I do hers. There needs to be a get-give balance so that both of us can be healthy and happy and stay healthy and happy. I want to help her to slowly take new steps into independence and support her lovingly along the way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I just hope the word spreads quickly so more people can be transformed by it. Also, do you have any idea when the app might be available outside of the United States? My question for you is around the topic of solitary confinement. As I'm sure you're already aware, solitary confinement is commonly used throughout prisons around the world, despite many deeming it akin to torture.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And not only that, but it's going to be really fun. We're going to be talking about something that we've never talked about ever before.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Okay. So Marvin wrote, what is the best treatment for anxiety and dysthymia? Hello, Dr. Burns. What method of treatment would you suggest for generalized anxiety disorder and for dysthymia?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Would you suggest third wave cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy? What is best based on science? Can you recommend some books, please? Thank you, Marvin.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, you always say we treat people, not diagnoses. So the best treatment would be whatever works best for the person who is experiencing whatever it is they're experiencing in this moment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I would suggest that he start off with the book Feeling Great by David Burns.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I think there is one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Which is exciting. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Mm-hmm. Well, here's our last question for today. Can you do externalization of voices on your own? Hi, David. This is from Owen, and we started off the podcast today with his endorsement. I'm going to repeat it. I'm a longtime listener of your great podcast and a huge fan of your book, Feeling Great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I've often heard you mention that externalization of voices is one of, if not the most powerful CBT techniques. I'm just wondering if it is still almost as effective when done solo without a therapist. For example, if the person takes on both the roles of positive and negative by recording themselves talking or something similar to that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Also, do you have any data comparing the efficacy of Team CBT work carried out solo using the Feeling Great book or your podcast as a guide versus Team CBT performed with a trained team therapist? I'm very much looking forward to the Feeling Great app launch in the United Kingdom, as hopefully that will be a much more effective way to do personal work without a therapist. Many thanks, Owen.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, and also one step first, one step before that is if you've identified the negative thoughts of the moment in time when you're struggling and then, you know, actually do some agenda setting with yourself where you ask yourself, what are the feelings say about you that are awesome or speak to your core values or what are the thoughts say about you that somehow give you a benefit or an advantage?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And you go through that and you can see that maybe you don't,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
want to give them up completely because they are meeting some kind of a need and and that can be a fun process to do by yourself and an enlightening process to do by yourself as well as a therapist i i had some family visiting over the weekend for the fourth of july when you know right after which is when we're recording this podcast and And part of it didn't go so well on Sunday.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I felt a little depressed. And I learned from Maryland Coffee to fill out brief mood surveys and daily mood logs by myself and go through the whole process of positive reframing before I start trying to talk back to my negative thought. And it makes it a much more fulfilling and successful process.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
My core negative thought is I don't matter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Okay. Sorry to tell you, Matt, but you're worthless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Who won that, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So is that a small or a large win?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Wow, I'm feeling really hurt and angry that you said that. And I'm curious, it's such a broad statement. Am I worthless all the time? Is there something specific about what I've done that has little value? I'm feeling like it's confusing and in general... It's really hard to relate to that. So could you be more specific about what it is that you're accusing me of?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, I think it could have been stronger a little.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I don't matter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I want you to attack me with a negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
That is so true. And it's such a great, humbling experience to accept that and to realize that I'm the same as everyone else. And it's a relief and it takes a lot of pressure off me. So yippee.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
That felt really good. And that felt like a win.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
A huge win.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
You know what? The truth is I matter to certain people. I matter to Matt and David, and I matter to my husband and my children. I matter to my friends, and I matter to myself. But I don't feel like I have to pressure myself to be any better than anyone else or to matter any more than other people matter. And it is honestly a relief to feel that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
To let go of the striving to matter in general in all ways to all people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I won.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Totally.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
See you later, then. Okay, bye-bye. Thanks so much, Ron and David. Goodbye, everybody. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
We welcome your comments and questions. If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I don't believe you're allowed to have a cell phone in prison. So it wouldn't be appropriate to use the app in prison or to think that that's possible. But people are allowed to have books.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And I think someone who has a book, the Feeling Great book, and can follow along the team therapy structure and learning how to identify their thoughts, leading them to change their feelings and their behavior would be very, very, very helpful. for anyone in prison, wherever they are in the prison system.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And there are a lot of people who have been wrongly convicted and then released from prison and written books about their experience. And I put three on the show notes that you wrote that I've read that were pretty transformative. And most of the people, most of the time when people are in prison, they are trying to
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Hello, David, and hello, Matt May. Hello to all of our listeners throughout the world and throughout the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast, and you're listening, or you're about to listen, to episode 412. We're doing another Ask David today, and...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And change the way they're thinking about their experience so that they can accept it and maintain some hope of when they are going to be released and belief in their lawyer, belief in the process, belief in themselves so that they can still maintain a sense of who they are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
People do have access to computers. And if so, if you could make the app available on a computer, then maybe somebody could use their computer time and work on the app when it's their turn, especially if you can have one file for each person that's confidential that other people can't get into.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So let's jump over to Susanna, who asked, what's a give-get imbalance and how can you get over it? So here's a description of Susanna's problem. Susanna is a woman with a grown daughter who has severe brain damage due to a severe brain infection, viral encephalitis, when she was an infant. Susanna was constantly giving herself... giving of herself and catering to her daughter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
She explains that her daughter can be very demanding and throws tantrums to get her way and kind of controls the entire house this way, the entire home. She can only talk a little and has the vocabulary of about a two and a half year old. She can mostly express the things she wants or doesn't want on a very basic level. She mostly understands what I want from her
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
but mostly does not want to do what I ask her to do. She can be very stubborn and I cannot reason with her because she has her own logic. And in her eyes, only her logic is valid. Maybe all a little bit like a two and a half year old.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Susanna struggles with negative feelings, including guilt, anxiety, and depression because she is constantly giving, giving, giving, and feeling exhausted and resentful. And she tells herself, I should be a better mom. David, you asked, can you spot any distortions in her thought, I should be a better mom?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So we're asking the listeners to turn their devices off, write down what they think are the cognitive distortions in the thought, I should be a better mom. And then after they've written off what they believe are the distortions and why those are distortions, turn back their device and start listening again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, clearly, it's a should statement. She's shoulding on herself, right? Why don't we like should statements? Because they're commands and they're ways of beating ourselves up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Let's go back and forth. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I see overgeneralization, that she's taking one moment in time when she's feeling frustrated and tired and not getting the result that she wants and blowing that up and saying, I'm always a bad mom.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
We're going to follow up on what we started last week. Some of our questions are related to self-esteem. I'm going to read someone's endorsement and then go back to their question. Owen wrote us something really simple. He just said, I am a longtime listener of your great podcast and a huge fan of your book, Feeling Good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
It seems kind of obvious that it's both magnification and minimization.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
She's minimizing the incredible good mothering that she's doing, and she's magnifying any errors or mistakes or challenges that she's having.