Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Mon, 16 Sep 2024
Feeling Down? Try the Feeling Great App for Free! The Feeling Great App is now available in both app stores (IOS and Android) and is for therapists and the general public, and you can take a ride for free! Check it out at FeelingGreat.com! Life Coaching: A New Dimension in Counseling Today we discuss the recent upsurge in life coaching, and feature one of the leaders in this emerging field, Angela Poch, and one of her wonderful students, Lorna Bird. Lorna Bird Angela Poch (see featured photo) is a Registered Professional Counsellor (RPC) with the Canadian Professional Counselling Association, certified Master Life Coach, and TEAM-CBT Level 4 Advanced Therapist and Trainer. She has been teaching health and wellness for over 30 years and was Vice President of Education with the Adventist Association of Health & Wellness Coaching. She has written several articles and books on health and wellness including, “The Truth Will Set You Free.” She has a YouTube channel (@talkingteamcbt) interviewing clinicians about their journeys with TEAM-CBT. She also has a channel on psychology and health (@bodymindhealth4u). Lorna Bird holds a Diploma of Counseling from Australia and is a certified Life and Health Coach. She is also a Level 3 certified TEAM-CBT therapist https://www.yestohealth.com.au/ Angela and Lorna will give us the true scoop on coaching. To get started, what IS coaching, and how does it differ from psychotherapy? I am aware that our podcast goes worldwide, so the answer may differ depending on the country or state where you live. According to AI, “In California, the term "psychotherapist" is defined in the Civil Code to include a number of mental health professionals, including psychologists, psychiatrists, and clinical social workers. In general, anyone who provides psychotherapy or counseling in California, whether in person, by phone, or online, must be licensed.in California.” Coaching is quite different. Again, according to AI, “In California, there are no specific state-mandated requirements for individuals to use the term "coach" or practice life coaching, meaning anyone can technically call themselves a coach without obtaining a specific license.” Angela Poch resides in Canada, and she has been a leading and beloved member of the TEAM-CBT community. She emphasized several differences between a “coach” and a licensed mental health professional: Diagnosis: A coach does not diagnose clients into the familiar DSM categories of “mental disorders,” such as “Major Depressive Illness,” “Bipolar Disorder,” “Schizophrenia,” or any of the hundreds of “mental disorders” listed in the DSM. In the same vein, licensed mental health professionals will typically screen for suicidal thoughts and urges, and will treat suicidal individuals, but this is forbidden territory for coaches. Purpose / aims of coaching: The purpose or aims of coaching do not, as a rule, involve delving into your past to search for the “cause(s)” of your problems, such as adverse childhood experiences or traumas. Instead, the focus of coaching is primarily on making changes in the here-and-now in how you think, feel, and relate to others. This might involve learning to challenge distorted negative thoughts so you will think and feel more positively about your life, as well as how to relate to others more skillfully. Coaching is goal-oriented and forward-moving rather than dwelling on the past. Of course, good counsellors and licensed mental health professionals may also provide tools to move forward as well, so there can be overlap. Training / credentialing: Because coaching is so new, there are not yet any widely accepted standards or requirements for calling yourself a “coach.” There is a varying degree of training to be “certified,” which might just consist of watching a couple videos to 100’s of hours of supervision with the ICF (International Coaching Federation), and everything in between. Here’s a generalized diagram Angela created to help with further clarification. NOTE: many TEAM-CBT therapists also are client/goal focused as well as and will often use coaching-style tools. Angela described a 20-hour “Feeling Great Coach” certification program she has developed. Her program is based almost entirely on TEAM-CBT and includes a final exam you must pass to get certified. She also offers a TEAM-CBT Masterclass & Mentoring Program for both coaches as well as therapists that includes live training twice a month, online practice groups, case consultation in small groups, one-on-one mentoring sessions, and personal work as well. She said this integrates seamlessly with FGI’s Fast Track program, any of David’s intensives, or the Tuesday group for those who want more individualized support and training. Lorna enthusiastically described her experiences learning from many of Angela’s training programs. I (David) have had the pleasure of knowing and working with Angela for many years now, starting with her attendance at a number of my intensives and two-day TEAM-CBT training programs in Canada. Lorna is really enjoying the Masterclass Mentoring Program and recommends you take Angela’s free workshop called “Effective Compassion.” You can check it out at www.teamcbt.ca/effectivecompassion How do I, David, feel about coaching? I am, for the most part, enthusiastic, but with a few reservations. I would have to confess that I spent 5 years in medical school, four more years in psychiatric residency, plus two years in post-doctoral research training at top institutions, but did not learn much at all, if anything, that has really helped me treat human beings who are hurting. Of course, I did learn how to prescribe drugs for those with severe difficulties, like Bipolar I Disorder, or Paranoid Schizophrenia, but that definitely did not require years and years of intensive medically oriented training. All I ever really wanted to do was psychotherapy. In my last year or so of post-doctoral psychiatric training, I discovered cognitive therapy, although it was not a part of the required curriculum, and learned quite a lot that has been really helpful in working with patients. But for the most part, all of the extensive medical training I received had very little, at best, to do with how I now work with patients, and an awful lot of what I do was things I had to figure out for myself. I do have great respect for psychology training (either clinical psychology or PsyD training), because of the emphasis on research and critical thinking, but I do think there is lots of room for new approaches such as coaching to emerge and evolve, and it seems to be the case that more people than ever are still struggling with depression, anxiety, addictions, rage, and more. Like any field, I think coaching is vulnerable to misuse by narcissistic individuals who wish to deceive or exploit the general public, and individuals who are naïve or unaware of the background or training of their therapists are perhaps at great risk of abuse. But I would also say that this problem is in no way limited to coaching, since a great many licensed mental health professionals have been charged and convicted of all manner of unethical conduct and as well as malpractice over the years as well. That’s why I’m enthusiastic about responsible leaders who, like Angela Poch, are blazing new trails and setting the bar high for those who wish to enter the field of life coaching. I’m also delighted to see that for years now, the Feeling Good Institute (FGI, feelinggoodinsititute.com) has included coaches in their superb training programs as well, and many high profile individuals you may be familiar with, like our beloved Professor Mark Noble, have taken and benefit from TEAM-CBT certification via the FGI. To learn more, contact Angela at [email protected] or visit https://angelapoch.com/ to learn about Angela’s many training and treatment programs. You can reach Lorna at:[email protected] or https://www.yestohealth.com.au/ And here is the contact information for TEAM-CBT Australia: https://www.teamcbtaustralia.com.au/
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Borowski, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Hi, David. Welcome to our listeners around the world, around the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast and it's episode 414. We have two very special guests today, Angela Poach and Lorna Bird, whom I'll introduce in a second.
I just want to say that the topic for today is coaching in addition to counseling. And so, hi, Angela.
Hi, Lorna. Hi. Hi, Rhonda. Good to see you.
Yeah, I want to just say a little bit that Angela is a level four team certified specialist, and she also provides tech support for David's website. So she's an incredibly balanced human being. And Lorna Bird is a counselor in Australia. And Lorna is working with Angela in her mentoring group. Maybe you could tell us more about that as we keep going. Sure. Yeah. And you too. Hello, David.
Hi. Hi, Rhonda. Hello, Rhonda. Hello, Angela. Hello, Rhonda.
I thought I'd start off today with reading a very beautiful endorsement that came to you via the YouTube channel that now we're posting the podcast with video as well as audio. And someone watched the YouTube video and said, Hey, Dr. David Burns, I'm a reader of Feeling Good and Feeling Great in Korea. You may have heard expressions of gratitude many times, and it might not be as impactful to you.
However, I want you to know that you have changed my life and I'm profoundly grateful beyond words. I wish you happiness and good health.
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind and thoughtful statements. And I know that you do too, Rhonda. Absolutely. Because we were reaching out in so many ways in the hopes of touching folks. And when you tell us you have received something positive, it really means a great deal to me and I know to you, Rhonda, also. Definitely.
We've got two other really neat people today, two of my favorites who are reaching out and talking about a topic that I think is really, really interesting and I hope will be interesting to you folks as well. And it's a little bit on the controversial side, which makes it even more fun to talk about. But What is coaching?
This is a new thing that I think is catching on in a pretty significant and big way. You folks can confirm whether or not that's valid, but that's my thought. And we want to find out what is a coach? How does a coach compare with a psychologist? Or how does coaching compare with psychotherapy? Is it a good thing or is it a terrible thing like most psychotherapy? No, I didn't mean to say that.
But let's hear what these experts have to say. I remember when I was in college, my freshman year, we had a fellow in our class who was blind. David Agnew, I think was his name, a really nice guy and really brilliant guy. And I think he had the idea of becoming a lay psychoanalyst, not doing the route of those days you had to go through medical school first and whatever.
you know, a lot of requirements to be a psychoanalyst. And, you know, it was all very important and very controlled. And I remember thinking, gosh, maybe that would be a good idea, have more lay people as psychoanalysts. And so it might be the case here, too, that maybe coaching can bring us something that people with extensive knowledge
but perhaps somewhat limiting training might not, but we'll find out. We'll dive in and see what's under the surface with regard to coaching.
So Angela, what's a coach?
Sure. I mean, it's a big question because, of course, it's not a regulated profession and that is partially a downside and partially a benefit. And we can talk more about that. So it's hard to define it because you'll get different answers from different people. And of course, it also depends on the topics. And we're going to stick with team because that's what we're talking about here.
But it's somebody who guides someone toward a positive goal setting. So it might be maybe they want to find more happiness and joy. Maybe they want to implement healthier lifestyle habits. And as they focus on that forward goal, there's challenges that come up in trying to reach that goal. And we use the Team CBT model and tools to deal with those challenges.
And I will say a lot of therapists like Lorna and other people do use these kind of coaching, we'll say, tools to help support their clients along the way. So I actually have quite a few therapists who are moving toward coaching.
So they already have all the training, but they're finding that this modality of kind of forward thinking, which is already inherent in David's team philosophy, is very helpful.
When you say some therapists are moving toward coaching, you mean they're trying to become coaches or they're moving to the more positive model of therapy that we've been developing?
Both. Yeah. Yeah. They're labeling themselves a coach, like even in their promotional material and so on and so forth. There just seems to be a different connotation to a client who comes to a coach than one who goes to a therapist. A lot of times when a client comes to a coach, they're kind of, I'll say partially motivated to get going already. There's something about that model of
They know they're coming to set a goal. They know they're coming to move forward and they're not expecting the coach to be an expert and psychoanalyze them and and deal with years of the past. So the language kind of lends itself to to maybe I guess the word is filter your clients to ones who want to get to work.
Right. Well, that's super important because, you know, my research and my whole career has been kind of focused around the fact that doing your psychotherapy homework is going to make all the difference between success or failure in therapy, whether you call it therapy or coaching or whatever. So I'm certainly sympathetic to that approach. not wanting to you know focus on on analyzing the past.
I've had a lot of patients, not a lot, but from time to time, people who said, I really want you to help me analyze my past so I can find out why I'm like the way I am. Why do I procrastinate? Why am I so depressed? Why am I so anxious? What kind of childhood experiences cause this? And then I've always told them, you know, I'm not much of an expert in causes. All I know about is cures.
But I do have a rule that I will be willing to explore your past with you, but only after you're cured. And so if after you've found joy and happiness, you still want to explore your past, you just let me know and we'll talk about it to your heart's content. But I never had one person take me up on that.
Yeah. You know, I think there's a conception out there that to dig deep into change and lasting meaningful change means unearthing some hidden cause when in fact the cause all along is what's going on in the here and now.
And you are actually dealing with the cause when you deal with the here and now and what, you know, the internal suffering that you're facing based on your own negative thinking toward yourself, talk toward yourself.
Yeah. You know, I do something called causal modeling when I analyze app data. And it's a very precise form of statistics. You have to have careful measurements and then you build mathematical models and you can test your hypotheses about causes. And the model will tell you two things. First of all, whether or not your model even makes sense from a statistical point of view.
And I would say 90% of the time, the computer tells you your model doesn't make sense, your thinking sucks. And there's no point in interpreting the results of this analysis because the very analysis itself is misguided. And then sometimes it'll tell you, yes, this model does fit the data. That doesn't mean it's a true model, but it is consistent with your data.
And then it tells you whether your hypotheses are valid or invalid or kind of fence sitters that can't be decided. And most of the time, the computer shows you that your causal hypothesis of what's causing depression, what causes change in people who use the app, that these beliefs that we have about things simply aren't correct.
And it happens rapidly, and the computer can dispute as many as 20 theories per hour very easily. And I think I've told this story before, but I gave a great workshop. The workshop was really well received. And I know you've been to a lot of my workshops, Angela, going back a long time. And I can picture you right now being in my workshops up near the front row and saying, I wonder who she is.
She seems to be in a lot of my workshops and she must be a really neat person. I found out you were. But this fellow drove me to the airport and he said he was a psychiatrist and he loved the workshop. But he said, it just seems to me you're messing out on an important thing, which is you don't seem to address the causes of depression and anxiety.
And what I felt like telling him, and he was such a nice guy, I didn't exactly challenge him. But, you know, the cause of depression and anxiety, the causes are not yet known to science, right? And so the idea that you can rummage through your past and discover the cause of something is kind of bizarre or bizarre. Well, I don't want to say childish because that would be controversial.
You would never be controversial. Not very bright because that would be insulting. So I won't say those things, but I am thinking those things. And, you know, why don't we have some humility and work with what we've got? And because we can help people change their lives. But, you know, claiming we know the causes of things, it strikes me as arrogant and not very critical thinking in my view.
major in college was the philosophy of science. And we kind of learned how to think about things more critically and from a scientific perspective. So I think, you know, your idea there, Angela, is certainly consistent with my thinking.
So can I jump in with an opposite view?
No, no. Back to you, Angela.
So I know, Angela, you are very talented. You're well-trained. Like David said, you've gone to a million trainings. I've been on the receiving end of your teachings. I think you have so much insight. And you've worked really hard to be a really great therapist and trainer.
And people in my Wednesday group say every once in a while, I've taken a class with Angela Poach and always really welcome their comments. And so when you say you're a coach and you're coaching clients, I know that they're in really great hands. you talk about coaching as a non-regulated profession. I've also heard people say, Oh, I went, I was an alcoholic or a substance abuser.
And now I'm going to coach people and I'm going to charge them $200 an hour. And I've heard people say, Oh yeah, I went through a divorce. It was really high conflict. I learned so much from it. Now I'm going to coach people how to get through their divorce. And I'm going to charge a ton of money for that. And yeah,
I have difficulty with people because they want to coach through their personal experience instead of through training and knowledge.
Yeah.
And so that's my struggle when I hear the word coach. Like, what is someone getting? I know when someone is getting... hopefully a licensed mental health professional, that they've gone through some ethics, that they know about boundaries, that they have some basic level of training and education.
I also have to say, I don't think all therapists, especially team CBT therapists, are getting bogged down in unanswerable questions like what has caused their depression, but are really focused on the here and now because that's part of
cognitive behavioral therapy and team therapy in particular so i don't want to throw water on this fire and this really exciting topic but there's to me there's another side of it absolutely i think that's a really important point and something that i you know i try to deal with at length when i'm teaching coaching for sure because um
That is the danger of something being unregulated and unlicensed, right? Like it's just you have the door opens for charlatans, as David would say, right? Like people who want to make big bucks. And, you know, I won't say names like Tony Robinson because I don't want to get in trouble for saying those names. But you get kind of these gurus and they capitalize on the motivational.
I'm sorry, I think you forgot to correctly name it. Did you mean to say sleazy gurus?
Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, some of them mean well, some of them don't. I don't know. I don't know their motivations. I can't mind read, although I do sometimes attempt to do it at times. And I think that is one of the dangers. And it's one of the reasons, I mean, you know, that I'm trying to do, you know, a team CBT.
And I actually, instead of calling it team CBT, because that's too similar to therapy, calling it feeling great coach certification, to... Give them some ethical training, some boundaries training, help set up the outline of doing a good coaching session, encourage them to get more training and practice. But you're 100% right, Rhonda, I totally agree with you.
There are dangers in people kind of just thinking this worked for me, so it'll work for everyone. And they almost get dogmatic. Well, they don't almost. I've seen I've seen I've seen people get so dogmatic about a particular topic. And I know Lorna has, too, just from from knowing some of her stories and stuff. But they get really excited about one thing. And we see this, you know.
I'm trying to think of something not to offend anyone. I think of an example, I'll make up something, you know, like, you know, placebo X, drink this placebo X, because it cured me of my cancer, right? We see that all the time. And that comes up in coaching, too, both in mental health coaching and life coaching. So it is definitely one of the dangers and
And hopefully as people can become certified and I know FGI is willing to go to level three. So people are looking at coaching or if they're looking for a coach, there are coaches that do get certification. There are national programs. The ICF is an international Federation of coaching. They have intense supervision, like two. It's not as much as it's not as much as therapists.
Don't get me wrong, but it's, it's hundreds of hours of supervision. Um, so there are avenues. If you want to be an ethical coach, there are certainly avenues to guide you in that direction.
There are training programs you can sign up for. And in all fairness, I would say that my view of licensed mental health professionals is the same as what you've described, Rhonda. It consists of cults. with gurus who were the cult leaders. We call them the great people in the history of psychiatry and psychology.
But I've mentioned on many occasions I had the honor of sitting next to Albert Ellis a few times at conferences generally in his honor. And because I admired him, they would often seat me next to him. And he kind of liked me because he was a little narcissistic himself. And he knew I liked him, so he liked me.
But he used to tell me about all the great people in the history of psychiatry and psychology. And he knew most of them in the 20th century because he was really doing his thing in the 1950s. And he said, David, you know, they're all a bunch of charlatans and frauds and psychos and narcissistic psychopaths who lie and take advantage. And their followers believe things just like cult followers.
And when I first heard him say that, I was pretty darn shocked. And then I thought of the famous ones that I knew personally. And I thought, my gosh, this is really true. And that's why I've personally been trying to develop a science-based, data-driven science of psychotherapy that...
And certainly a coach is free to use the tools we've developed, testing people at the start and end of every session, using the evaluation of therapies session scale to see what your empathy score is, see if you're getting changes in the patient's negative feelings. I think the whole field of mental health overall needs a radical change.
change and getting away from these semi-religious cults where you've got your Adlerians and your ACT people and your EMDR, eye-jiggling people. Sorry if that insulted someone, but it was intentionally passive-aggressive. You're eye tapping people. Let's see, where do I tap? Oh, is it right here on my right eyebrow and my OCD will disappear?
Oh, I'm cured.
And, you know, there's all this junk going on right now. And I think the whole field needs, I don't know quite how it's going to happen, but I think it does have to happen. And we've got plenty of People who want to charge a lot, well, certainly there are no psychologists or psychiatrists like that, Rhonda, right?
There are a lot of people that charge a lot of money, especially in the Bay Area, where there are a lot of high-income humans living. I'm just not 100%. understanding what the difference is between coaching and therapists. Because Angela, you've discussed, and David has said too, you've got through a lot of training. I've seen you at trainings and you're putting on trainings.
I don't understand the difference in why you're calling yourself a coach and why you're not calling yourself a therapist. Because clearly You've been well-trained as a Team CBT therapist, and you have provided therapy to people. So to me, you're a therapist. I don't know why I would even call you a coach.
A therapist and a damn good one and a teacher and a damn good one. Let's get on to the positives of this show. We didn't get you folks on here to rake you with the cold. Well, I mean, that is positive. To sing your... sing your praises and find out the cool things that you're doing and how other people can hook up and learn from you.
Yeah, it's a good question, Rhonda. And it can be sticky to navigate because therapists use coaching tools, as you've already pointed out. Like there are a lot of proactive, excellent, wonderful therapists who use Team CBT in a very proactive way, forward thinking. as well as actually helping people deal with past trauma and things. So they kind of do it all.
And I refer clients often to therapists or I tell my coaches to work with therapists. Where coaching can excel is actually for situations where you're working in conjunction with one. For example, one of the life coaches I know, he actually teaches nursing now as well. But he started off doing coaching and he worked for a doctor. The doctor hired him. He worked in the doctor's office.
He was on salary for the doctor. And he would help the clients implement the things the doctor said would be helpful for their health, whether that was mental health techniques or physical, like, you know, helping with their diabetes or heart disease.
And so he worked under the care of a doctor just to help the client step by step because the doctor's time was, like you say, especially if you're in the Bay Area, very expensive. And so coaches actually can work in conjunction with therapists to help give just maybe a weekly support system.
But in terms of Team CBT, I think it is a greater area for sure, because team is so structured and it is so much more like coaching. Like I studied coaching before I knew about Team CBT. And when I found David, I'm like, oh, this is like coaching. You know, like little steps are big feats is basically smart goals, which is what we teach and learn first thing.
That's the first thing you learn in coaching is a smart goal, which is very similar to a combination of little. It's a combination of the habit log kind of and little steps are big feats. But, I mean, David's stuff is so much better and superior, of course.
Tell me more. I like you.
Yeah. So but yeah, it's, you know, certainly the language is different. The legal relationships are different for sure. You know, coaches, coaches can help their friends and their family and they're not there to to. Analyze the past or diagnose disorders. Certainly that is for therapist realm exclusively. And here in Canada, even I can't do that.
So like you have to have a special diagnostic certification program. You have to be either a psychiatrist or psychologist, which I'm not. So it's quite regulated in terms of what they do. We need school psychologists.
Coaching is regulated?
No, no, the therapy part. Oh, yeah. It's quite regulated. And we need those. We need school psychologists who can help diagnose kids so they can get funding for things. So it's a bit different. So, yeah, what makes coaches different? If they're a team CB therapist, you know, it's the language, it's the relationship.
We certainly talk about goal setting and moving toward having more happiness and joy and what's getting in the way of that. Well, my negative thinking is getting in the way of that. My self-defeating beliefs are getting in the way of that. And so that's kind of the focus rather than trying to talk about depression, anxiety, and how we're going to cure that or fix that or give you
treatment options for that. These are words we would never use in coaching.
Yeah. And we have to get to Lorna, who I think is on the program to be more than a decorative object. And so, but I just wanted to say, I think there's some, a couple of legal differences. I think that you have to be a licensed mental health professional to do diagnosis and And maybe some can and others cannot.
And then also, I think that in terms of dealing with someone who has suicidal urges or fantasies or concerns, that I think coaches are supposedly not supposed to be dealing with those patients. Are there any other... Psychosis...
any kind of psychosis emotional eating disorders we would avoid that as coaches although there are coaches that specialize in that but I personally would that would be cautionary I think Rhonda some of those people are ones that have had successes in their life and they're excited about it and they want to share but and some of them do have training don't get me wrong I don't want to be discouraging of maybe some of the coaches out there who've had extensive training but I
I would preserve that for qualified mental health professionals that have licensure and, and, um,
stick with so so i guess it kind of comes back to david you know i know you've mentioned and talked about this and it's something where like i really um resonated with you that how suffering is on a scale and it can get to the point where it's dysfunctional so you think of depression feelings of depression and down and blue they can get so dysfunctional that there's an extra layer of support needed and that of course would not be appropriate for coaching so coaches only work with
we would say highly functioning people. And they're suffering from everyday suffering. It's not a disorder that they have. It's that they're having these negative thoughts that making them feel miserable.
And that's an appropriate place for a coach to help someone sort through kind of this negative critical inner self-talk rather than dealing with someone who truly has a clinical disorder that definitely needs care from a professional. Anyways, I think I covered kind of. Yeah, that was beautifully said.
Thank you so much for explaining that. I'm really glad you were able to delineate that. And Lorna, you're in Angela's Masterclass and Mentoring Program. What's that like for you?
Yes. Well, as you've already heard, I've joined a number of Angela's programs. And when I learned about her Effective Compassion two-day free course, I joined that. I'm always keen to learn from Angela. She's very knowledgeable and gifted.
And from that two-day program, I learned about self-defeating beliefs, self-care, and how we can help our clients sustainably by using some of the team tools, of course. And then from there, I learned about the masterclass, which is available to coaches, therapists, or people who are just caring for others and their mental health or other areas, lifestyle.
So I joined that program and I'm really enjoying it a lot. And I just highly recommend it to anyone who would like to take that opportunity.
Well, let's say that I want to learn more about coaching and maybe become a coach. What will I learn in your masterclass, Angela? How long does it last and how many students are there in the classes and what kinds of things happen?
Sure. Well, first of all, the masterclass is sort of a follow-up to the coaching certification. So I have a Feeling Great certification program. Which people can take, I believe, I want to say it's about 20 hours of training material. Excuse me. But in addition, there's recommended that they take the practice groups. Joining one of the practice groups could be the Wednesday group with Rhonda.
Could be Tuesday group. Could be my Monday group. There's lots of great stuff out there. But they need to practice before they take a quiz. There's an online quiz. And then they have to do an oral exam. And to kind of show me that they've got a little bit of a handle on some of the team concepts as a coach.
And then once I do that, or if they already are a coach or a therapist, they can join the MasterCast mentoring program, which is a bi-monthly program where we meet how we have a live session, which is also recorded for people like Lorna, who can't come when it's in the middle of the night for her. So she can watch the recording, but then we have case consultation groups.
So the groups, they get together and, discuss cases and places that they're stuck. We do personal work, which is, I think, extremely important for both coaches and therapists to do their own personal work and apply all of these tools themselves. so they can see in real time, um, how effective they are, but also makes them a better, in my opinion, makes them a better clinician.
The more we deal with our own self-defeating beliefs, the more we implement death of the ego and, um, failing as fast as we can. And these key principles for ourselves, the better that helps our clients. Uh, so yeah. And, and then they have one-on-one sessions with me as well. So it's sort of a monthly subscription program. Um,
with training, case consultation groups, personal work groups, and then one-on-one sessions with me to help make sure they're going in the direction they want to go.
Sounds fantastic.
Sounds just like Team CBT to me.
Yeah. So, you know, like I remember when I was just getting started as a therapist and I had to do they wanted us to do a self-care plan. And I don't know if you remember this, David, but I reached out to you and I asked you, what do you do, David, to deal with your self-care? Like when you've seen a bunch of clients and you're feeling emotionally burdened, what do you do for self-care?
I don't know if you remember your answer. Do you remember your answer?
No, I don't even remember the question.
I didn't think so. Well, you said to me, I just see more clients.
Oh, yeah.
Because seeing clients is so rewarding and fulfilling when you follow the team plan.
Yeah, I never found seeing patients to be tiring or exhausting. For me, 100% of the time is the more patients I saw on a day, the higher I got. And the only thing that ever brought me down was if I thought I said something that hurt someone's feelings or they left the session feeling really bad. That was horrible for me.
It was like getting shot in the stomach by a bowling ball or a cannon or something like that. And but but, you know, it's it is not true that seeing working with people who are depressed could be depressing. They cannot possibly depress you because it goes back to Epictetus. The only thing that can make you happy or unhappy are your own thoughts about what happens.
What you're interacting with, the events don't cause our feelings. It's our interpretation. It's what we're telling ourselves, the narrative about those events. And if I saw somebody who says, gosh, Dr. Burns, I've been to 12 therapists and no one's ever been able to help me and I've been super severe and I haven't had one minute of happiness in my life, I feel euphoric.
Because I think, oh, my God, do I have a lot to give this person? This is going to be a tremendous positive experience. I get all kind of excited because that's my interpretation of that situation. Yeah.
I, that was really impactful for me as a student. And what I recognized was when I was feeling compassion fatigue, as they say in the industry, it was because self-defeating beliefs were affecting me. And I was not adhering to the principles of team, whether it be death of ego, whether, you know, and I know you don't say practice what you preach, but we teach that in team.
We may not say it in those language, but you know, like, you know, we need to be authentic and genuine and physician heal myself, that kind of concept. And feeling as fast as we can, like these key principles alleviate a lot of the burden that we would often face in terms of compassion fatigue.
As the Buddha said so many hundreds and thousands of years ago, there's no such thing as effing compassion fatigue. It's just a farce. You know, compassion is not fatiguing. The only thing that can fatigue you is your own distorted thoughts. But yeah.
And I have to fix it, right? Like that's the big one for me was I have to fix this. And clients would suck me in and they'd say, but you're the only one that can relate to me because we're the same religion. We're this, we're this, we're this. And so you're the only one that can help me. And I would feel like I'm the one that's got to like fix them and cure them. And it's exhausting sometimes.
Get hooked on our own narcissism.
Yeah.
That used to happen to me an awful lot and still happens to me on occasion. You, you get thinking, Oh man, I can give this person something that nobody else can. And they're, they're going to be so impressed with me when I do these amazing things. And then boy, you're heading for trouble when you get sucked into that type of, into that type of format. Um, for, for sure. Um,
Angela, you also have this really incredible extensive knowledge in tech. And I know you've done incredible work gathering all of the techniques that David has put together and made a beautiful chart for everyone. And I know I've called on you for tech support and you put together the toolkit. And when it became an electronic, how did you move from tech to
coaching and how do you incorporate them together?
Yeah, I think that's just ADHD bouncing around squirrel. Um, and, and, and I, I, I like it. Like, I don't think there's anything to fix. I don't think I'm broken just because I like squirrels. Um, yeah, I, I, I think it's, it's, it's the analytical part, right? It's the being able to stop and go, okay, what are the steps? Where do we need to go? Where are we right now? Can I, can I,
Understand, conceptualize where I am right now, and that applies whether it's tech or team. What exactly is the problem? Where do we exactly need to go? Now, what do we need to get there? So there's conceptualization, goal setting, and then what were the steps in between to connect the two? I think that type of thinking lends itself to both.
I think it's why, I'll be honest, I get a lot of engineers wanting to be coaches. And they're like, I don't know what I'm doing. I have imposter syndrome because I got my degree in engineering, electrical engineering, programming. But it lends itself to that. And it's because, David, yourself, you love statistics and you have a very analytical mind.
And so your approach resonates along those same lines. And that's not the right word I meant to say, but...
I used to get a lot of, well, still do, I suppose, but I used to get a lot of attorneys as clients, and they really loved what I... In those days, we were calling it CBT when I was in private practice. Now, it's a little different because it's evolved so much, but...
to become team, but they love that logical aspect, the analytic aspect of CBT and seeing that their thoughts were distorted and they could change those distorted thoughts and change the way they, they feel. So I, I especially enjoyed working with attorneys for that reason.
Yeah. I guess to specifically answer your question, Rhonda, um, I actually had, and I don't know if I, I don't want to double up on the last, on the other podcast we did. I can't remember how much of this I said on the other podcast, but I had my own health issues, mostly physical at the time. And yeah, yeah. Well, I have, I have IBS. So, you know, bowel issues.
Oh, wow. That's so sad. I'm sorry to hear that.
yeah, the bathroom becomes a little sanctuary because you get to spend so much time there. Anyway, um, it, you know, it is what it is. Let's, I don't, it, yeah, just is what it is. So, um, so I started looking at some health, um, lifestyle changes to do that. And, and in doing that, it led me into life coaching in general, lifestyle coaching, health coaching, that kind of thing.
And I, I did a little bit of that. And then I realized as I was doing it that, that, um, Actually, it was one particular client that made the shift because I did an approach that kind of was integrative. So we did exercise, diet, mental health. And and then. As I was unpacking this, this particular client wanted to gain weight.
They felt they were too skinny and in their culture, they need to be fluffy. And so they were feeling really out of sorts and out of place and they wanted to gain weight and they just couldn't seem to gain weight. And so they wanted a nutrition plan and all of this stuff and.
But it turned out they actually had a lot of self-defeating beliefs, a lot of perfectionism, a lot of worry and stress because they were never good enough as a mother. And once we dealt with that, they were just feeling so much better. And I said, OK, well, now we'll deal with your nutrition plan. They're like, no, I don't need it. I'm OK. Whether I'm skinny, fat doesn't matter.
Now that I realize it's not about being a failure as a mother, it's about loving my children. I'm good. And so I'm like, well, wait a minute. maybe I'm in the wrong field here. Um, and so then I kind of shifted gears from lifestyle coaching into, into more mental health.
And I did, I did do my counseling because I wanted to be part of the team CBT levels and you, you know, do you have to be a therapist to be a level four? So that's the reason I became a therapist was to get my level four because, because I was using the coaching tools already. Um, and, uh, yeah, so, so it just kind of morphed as I was helping people and, and, and, on just on the journey.
So it was just sort of a natural step.
That's a beautiful story. I love that story. I don't think you told that the last time you were here. Yeah. Yeah. That's neat.
I'd like to hear from Angela and from Lorna, maybe give Lorna a first shot, hear more about you and you're doing coaching in Australia. Is that correct? Yeah.
I actually, yeah, I trained as a coach. I was working as a coach for a little while, but I started to realise I needed more. I started realising that I needed more tools as a coach. As Angela has mentioned, the self-defeating beliefs that the clients had, I didn't have tools to know how to respond to that.
So that led me to training as a counsellor and thankfully I found Team CVT, which I am so grateful for. It's just transformed my own mental health and also the ability to really meaningfully help people to move to where they want to be with their lifestyle or mental health or whatever it is they want to work on. Yeah.
And you're in our Tuesday training group at Stanford every week.
Yes, I feel so fortunate. Right?
Yeah. And and so if if if I'm and I guess a coach can help someone anywhere in the world. There's nothing about crossing state lines like we have in the United States. That's kind of an advantage of being a coach. But if I'm in Australia, you know. Where are you located? Do you see people in person? Do you do all virtual work?
And if I am an Australian struggling, you know, what kind of problems would you like people to bring to you? Would it be depression, anxiety, relationship problems? What can you do for your fellow Australians?
Well, all of those, you know, depression, anxiety, relationships, I'm happy to help with all of those. So I work online and I work with people in America as well as Australia and other parts of the world. And I'm also part of a health and lifestyle retreat where people can come and live in and work on their lifestyle as well as getting support through coaching or counselling while they're there.
You have a lifestyle retreat. Do you sponsor this yourself? Do you make this happen?
I've just started working there. It has been a retreat where I have worked in the past and I've taken a break and I'm just returning to that work actually this week.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, it's pretty exciting. Yeah. So if I was in Australia and I want to see, well, should I go to this Lorna person for help or wherever, I guess, you know, can you give me a, you know, 25 words or less sales pitch or something? Like what would I hope to experience by coming and working with you, Lorna? Yeah. And I'll ask you the same question, Angela.
Okay. Thank you. I guess, firstly, just somebody who can provide empathy and understanding. I really like to just listen and understand where my clients are coming from. And then if they want to, yeah, they might be coming for help with depression or anxiety or relationship issues.
just giving them tools that they can put in their toolbox that work for them personally, that they can take with them throughout life and pull those tools out whenever they need them. It's kind of like a similar to a coaching model where we're empowering people to be their own coach or their own therapist by sharing the team tools, which are really powerful. They're just really powerful tools.
That's what I'm always trying to do, make people their own shrinks so they won't need to come to me anymore. Exactly. Are you using the brief mood survey at the start and end of sessions?
I am so grateful for the brief mood survey. I don't think I could do this work without it because I tend to mind read and think that I've messed up. But when I get the brief mood surveys back from clients, it's just so reassuring to know. that we're going okay, and if there's any issues, they have opportunity to share that with me so that we can get back on track and move them.
Do you see changes from the start to the end of the session?
Yes, I do. Yeah, it's very exciting to see depression going down and anxiety going down, especially anger. I think people... when they have opportunity to just share what's going on in their lives. Anger is the one that I see reduced quite a lot during session.
So if I'm in Australia or elsewhere in the world, feeling down and depressed or anxious and worried and panicky or angry or all of the above, you're my person.
Well, they're very welcome to contact me. We also have an Australian... Team CBT group.
Oh, do you? I didn't know that.
Yes, Robin Blake Mortimer. She runs a weekly training, which I join, and there are therapists available on her website if they want to tap into the team group in Australia. Yeah.
We'll give us both of you your contact number so people will know where to go if they want some coaching, Lorna. And Angela, if they want coaching or training, tell us. You're in Canada, so occasionally I refer Canadian people to you. I'm always happy to have you available. And Mike Christensen, too, down, you know, I guess he's north of Vancouver. But tell us a little more of what your niche is.
And I think you also have a bit of a religious focus integrated into your psychotherapy or coaching, which is not important to some people and is very important to others. Tell us a little bit about that as you know. Or anything you want, really. Sure. Turn us on.
Okay. Well, we mentioned the Effective Compassion class. That's a free workshop that's open to anyone, a general public therapist coach. And it's just teamcbt.ca slash effectivecompassion.
So that's... I'm going to write that down now. TeamCBT, is that one word?
Yep, .ca...
dot ca like ca yeah uh-huh effective compassion oh is that a slash after ca for canada yes yes and uh effective uh compassion is that one word or two words effective compassion all all one no space yeah
Or you can just go to teamcbt.ca. That's easy to remember. And all my trainings are there for coaches and therapists. And as well as if you want to click on the all courses page, there's courses for the general population as well.
And like you said, I have one for positive, healthy mind for the Christian, a step-by-step course that they can take that takes the principles of Team CBT and the Bible and incorporates them together. So it walks people through how they can deal with their own negative thinking and self-defeating beliefs from that lens.
Oh, that's beautiful, Angela. Yeah.
Yeah. I've had a couple of feedback, you know, it's still new. And, and so I'm getting, I'm still getting people trickling and saying that like, this was a pretty amazing course or it's really changed their life or it's helped their relationship, which is interesting because there's no relationship tools in there yet.
I'm doing a separate course for that, but I think we all know that the more we are grounded in ourselves and have joy and peace, the better our relationships tend to go. So, so personal work does kind of also influence our relationships as well. But, uh, Yep. So that's where you can find me, teamcbt.ca.
All righty. Back to you, Rhonda, tell us where we're at and there's other things we need to cover today.
Well, I think Angela and Lorna, you've done a really beautiful job of explaining the differences between coaching and therapy. And Angela, you've prided so much service to the entire team CBT community with everything that you've done. I'm very appreciative of the times that I have worked with you and you've coached and trained me. you have found a response to everything that I'm confused about.
And, and I've, I've learned a lot from listening to you. I don't know. I really appreciate it.
Thank you, Rhonda. I always appreciate you and your insight. And I really enjoyed Wednesday group and I always wish there was more than 24 hours in a day.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Which is a testament to how fun team is right now. I'm from the country of fun. So it, uh, When you want to pack it all in, it means it's really good stuff. So thanks for that, David.
Yeah. And do you see people in person or all virtual?
It's all virtual.
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah, all virtual, my workshops and stuff. I should say I do have groups and communities who invite me to come teach on coaching and or STEAM CBT. So I did a two-day live in person, one in Maryland. I was invited by a conference to come do some training there. So I do have churches and conferences and organizations invite me in to talk about these topics. And I do love doing that, too.
Mm-hmm.
And then on the individual coaching level, what's your cup of tea there? And I guess you're not limited to Canada there.
No, I've seen clients from all over the world. I have a wait list, so I'm not sure when this pod comes out or whoever's listening, when you're listening, you can check out my website. But I'm currently pretty full. I'm really focusing on training and helping coaches. But I can certainly help line you up with other therapists. And, of course, the Feeling Good Institute has some great –
searchability to find therapists in your area if you're in the U.S. Or honestly, if you're listening worldwide, if you Google team coach or team CBT therapist, you're likely to populate someone who's skilled in this team CBT as well.
Why do you have a waiting list? Is that because you're slow or because you're popular?
Yeah.
That's great. That's neat that you have a waiting list. I love hearing that.
Every once in a while, I do one of, you know, your famous three-hour, like, let's kick the can, let's get it done. Yeah. And so sometimes those slots opened up and they're always exciting. I'm often shocked myself, even though I know that they work. I'm still always apprehensive because I'm like, no, this can't possibly help someone. I can't possibly help someone in two hours. I'm not David.
But they tend to go pretty good and I always get pretty good feedback.
Yeah, that's great to hear. Well, anything else that anyone wants to say here? This is your shot. We have, you know, right at the moment, it's live. We told you that, but there's 700,000 people listening at this moment. not. But there will be a lot of people, you know, thousands of people hearing this. So any other words that you want to say or ideas that you want to share?
I think that what you're doing is great. And I think you're taking, myself, a very ethical approach to what you're doing. And, you know, what you said, Rhonda, that, you know, there are
shysters in the world it seems to me like our world is getting more and more shysterish and sadly I don't think they're limited to co-chain I think we've got plenty of people in our own ranks of psychiatry and psychology who are nothing I'm proud of but I shouldn't throw stones or rocks at others but I think there's a lot of poor training in all areas of mental health.
And I'm not trying to put everybody down, but what I'm trying in my own way to do is to lift the standards up, getting people using measurement, find out how are your patients feeling right now at the start and end of your session so you can see instantly if you're being effective and how do they rate you on warmth and empathy and helpfulness and things of that nature. Yeah, absolutely.
I think every mental health professional should be doing that. And sadly, very, very few are.
And well, I think more and more are. That's the exciting thing, David, is I'm hearing, you know, I've heard some professors talk about that and I think to do a team. So there is there is more and more people heading in that direction of testing. And as they test, they realize they they are falling short. So if you're listening to this and you're noticing that, you know,
jump on one of the training programs, you know, search David's website. There's just lots of great material here. Get started for yourself. And I guess my last little bit would be is for each one of us, just do a check-in. Is there stuff to be in belief holding you back today? And take some time to figure what that is and work on it.
That's so inspiring, Angela. I love that you said that.
And then one other thing that you guys might, you ladies, you wonderful people, whatever is the correct thing, that this is coming out on September 16th, and our Feeling Great app is available as of today, although it's officially going to be released on August 8th, the start of the intensive run.
Coincidentally, that's when our press release is coming out, and we're going to have an article in this article journal called Technical Crunch. It was supposed to be a real top-level thing, if you can get in it, when you have an app or something technical to announce. So apparently they accepted our press release, so we'll be interviewed for that.
But one thing we're trying to explore, and coaches might have an interest in this, is I think on some level, everybody is hoping for effectiveness in our work. And what that means is a drop in those scores on the depression test, the anxiety test, the anger test, the relationship conflict improvement, and things like that. And we're seeing some pretty spectacular results in people who use the app.
In fact, dramatic changes in as little as an hour. The first time people sit down with the app now, we're seeing like 50% reduction in seven negative emotions. And if coaches wanted to explore combining your coaching with the app, it might be, you know, one plus one equals two or one plus one equals three. Right. because many people need more than an app, need a human connection.
I know when I'm having a technical problem, I really would like a real person on the other end of the line helping me figure out how to get my website fixed or whatever. And I think it's the same with our emotions. And I think the The app can be a tremendous resource for the general public who are hurting and for therapists and coaches who are trying to speed people out of misery and into joy.
So if you have any experiences like that, make sure you pass them on to me so we can understand more about if there's a place for the app. the app to partner up with coaches and, and therapists in order to try to transform the face of mental health and start providing much faster relief to people than was previously thought possible.
A hundred percent. Actually, that was in my notes and I, and I missed it. I scrolled past it. That was my notes to say that I think it's going to be pivotal for, you know, help like integrating coaching and, and the, and the app, um, Currently, I'd have to use a VPN to get it, and I'd have to pretend I'm from the U.S., but it'll come my way soon.
Oh, that's right. Yeah, I'm not sure why all that problem is that people aren't allowed to use it. If they're not from the U.S., I think there are all these regulations and things that someone in our company is looking into. It'll get figured out eventually.
You know, another thing I want to add to piggyback about how people can find you Angela and Lorna and everyone else that you're, you're training to be a coach or therapist is that if I'm not sure if, you know, we made the announcement earlier that myself and a few other team therapists are starting a nonprofit, a professional organization for team CBT therapists called team CBT international.
And it's really geared toward education and, and educating therapists locally and providing seed money to, to therapists who want to be trainers. And, you know, it's just like any other profession. We need a nonprofit professional organization of us, like the Association of Women Psychiatrists. And this will be a professional organization.
We're keeping the fees very low, especially in the first few years. And then we will be publishing the directory of our membership. You can join as a coach or a therapist, whatever. Doesn't matter. It'll be a worldwide directory of all team CBT therapists.
Wonderful.
Yeah. Let you know more about it as it goes forward.
Sounds good.
Okay. Well, thank you so much. It's been a great podcast as usual, and we really appreciate your taking the time out of your busy schedules to join us.
Good luck with what you're doing and thanks for hitching your, our star, our wagon to your star or your wagon to our star for working together. Cause I just love both of you and have so much tremendous regard for you as a really beautiful human beings, but also skillful, compassionate therapists. And I applaud you both. Absolutely.
We have so much to thank you for David and Linda as well. And Angela, I just, yeah, you're very gifted and giving people. And I'm just so grateful to be a part of this community. Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.