Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Mon, 07 Oct 2024
Podcast 417 Bullying Featuring Manuel Sierra, MD (pictured above) Today, we welcome an old friend, Manuel Sierra, MD, who practices pediatric psychiatry in Idaho, and Dr. Matt May, a familiar and beloved colleague, to discuss bullying. Below you’ll find a great list of questions Dr. Matt May submitted just prior to today’s podcast, along with some links you may wish to explore for more information. We addressed some of the questions, but certainly not all, during the podcast! Manuel described bullying, and said the ¼ of children and adults have experienced bullying. The consequences can be severe, including suicidal urges or completed suicides, along with shame and a severe loss of self-esteem, and more. He pointed out that bullies are good at zeroing in on aspects of ourselves that we feel insecure about, including how we look, our ethnicity, our aptitudes, and more. He provided links to resources on bullying. The bully picks on someone who is weak, so there is a power imbalance, and does the bullying to gain popularity and power, at the expense of the victim. David and Manuel emphasized that the bullying per se cannot cause the depression, shame, and so forth, but rather the victim must buy into the bully’s mean-spirited statements, like “you’re weak,” or “you have an ugly zit on your nose,” “your mother is a dirty whore,” and more. Then, the inner dialogue of the victim often goes like this: I must be a terrible and horrible person to get bullied like this. I’m worthless. All the kids are looking down on me. Everybody hates me! Everyone is laughing at me. I’m just a loser. And that, of course, is the voice of the “inner bully” who does all the emotional damage. Manuel and David both emphasized that the goal of treatment is to help the victim see that the “badness” is not with them, but rather with the kid (or adult) who’s doing the bullying. Because the victims nearly always feel ashamed, they will often suffer in silence, keeping the bullying a secret. David described what he calls the “abuse contract” that many, and perhaps most, humans buy into when being hurt or exploited. It’s really a contract between the abuser and the abused, and there are there parts to the agreement. I get to hurt you for my own pleasure. This might include sexual, physical, financial, or psychological torture or abuse. You, the victim are entirely to blame for this. You are the bad one. I am superior and totally innocent. You deserve what’s happening to you. We have to keep this a secret, even from ourselves. You cannot even hint that I am doing something wrong. If you try that, I will REALLY hurt you. David emphasized that the tendency to “accept” this type of horrible contract is not limited to children, but includes adults as well. He emphasized that sometimes the child who is being bullied will tell parents, who then tell the teacher or school officials, who will tell the bully to stop. This is rarely effective, and often makes the situation worse, since the bully tells the victim that they are a snitch and now they will REALLY get what they “deserve.” Matt described many types of bullying, including physical, psychological, and cyber bullying. Manuel described some of the signs to look for if you suspect a problem with your child, including: Not wanting to go to school. Saying things like “everyone thinks I’m terrible.” Changes in sleep, eating habits, and energy. Somatic symptoms such as stomach aches and headaches. Manuel emphasized that the goal is not to eliminate negative feelings entirely, but rather to reduce the time you spend feeling anxious, humiliated and upset after being bullied. He also emphasized that ongoing practice talking back to your own negative thoughts is an important key to change, in exactly the same way that athletes must commit to ongoing daily practice to boost their physical skills and stamina. Manuel emphasized the importance of empathy and support, as well as asking victims if they’d want some help combatting their automatic negative thoughts and feelings. He shared that he endured considerable bullying as a kid, and was bullied because he was poor, of Mexican heritage, short, wearing glasses (“four eyes”), and young, and sometimes called “a fag” and other hurtful things. He said that reattribution is one useful strategy, among many, for combatting automatic thoughts and negative feelings. Instead of automatically blaming yourself for the bullying, you can ask questions like this: “What is it in their life that makes them want to do things like this.?” And “They are trying to hurt and embarrass me. Why are they doing that.” The goal is to help the victim see that the “badness” and shame really reside within the bully, and not with them. The bully is trying to tear you down. Ask yourself why? The bully thinks that this is the best way for them to gain popularity, power, and importance. Toward the end of the podcast, I, David, again emphasized that the Outer Bully can hurt us physically, by hitting for example, but only the Inner Bully can make us suffer emotionally. And if you’ve used the Externalization of Voices to crush the inner bully, and you no longer feel intimidated or ashamed when some tries to bully you, it becomes infinitely easier to respond effectively to the Outer Bully, using the Five Secrets, including Disarming and Stroking, as well as humor. To demonstrate this, I invited the other guests to try to bully me as an old person (I’m about to turn 82), and urged them to say the cruelest things they could think of. This is called the Feared Fantasy Technique. I was surprised and pleased at how incredibly easy it was to get “the edge on them. “ I hope you enjoy that aspect of the podcast. We will likely approach this topic again, with a focus on cyber bullying, and will restrict our focus to children and teens. How to Help! Matt once worked with a child who encountered their own 'inner bully' in the form of negative thoughts that would occur when they were unable to assemble LEGO's. The child could express certain thoughts, but was too young to write, so Matt wrote these down: I'll never be able to do it It’s impossible I'm not good at anything There is something wrong with me Matt asked the child if they would like to learn a trick for how to feel better and the child agreed. Matt wrote down some new thoughts for the child to choose from to describe the situation that was upsetting to them. Multiple Choice Positive Thoughts: I really, really want to do this! It's ok if I can't do it, yet Some things take lots and lots of practice I may be able to do it later I can do lots of things really well already I can probably get better with practice People love me and like to help Nobody's good at everything all the time Everybody messes up sometimes It might help to take a break I can always choose to like myself The child said they really liked #11 and felt better right away and during future 'relapses'! Thanks, Matt Thanks for listening today. Below you’ll find the email Matt sent prior to the show. Manuel, Rhonda, Matt, and David Matt wrote: Just to stir up trouble and make you all sweat, I'm sending a few questions we might address: What is bullying? How are we defining this term? Is it Liberal Propaganda? How dare I say that? What's the difference between bullying and micro-aggressions / gaslighting? Am I crazy, if I think I'm being gaslighted? If I avoid bullying, in-person, including physical, emotional and verbal abuse...am I safe, on the Internet, at least? Is there such a thing as 'Safety'? Isn't that the thing we need, the most? Whose job is it, to make me feel safe? Why do some people think that safety doesn't exist? What is the significance of bullying? Does it matter or have any tangible effects on individuals or society? Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK390414/ What are some common misconceptions when it comes to bullying? Here are some that Matt has seen on DML's: It was all my fault / I deserved it / This happened because I am (insert label: bad/weak/defective, etc.) Bullying is normal, nothing can be done about it. Everyone gets bullied. It builds character. I should just get over it. I shouldn't *still* feel upset. That was a long time ago and I've done a lot of therapy. I can't speak up or talk about it, it's just too disturbing and upsetting. People would judge me and reject me, if they knew what happened to me All conflict is dangerous and must be avoided, at all costs I'm just a loser, a born victim, worthless in every way. This will always happen to me and people who believe #2 are correct I should be more accepting of bullies, they're people, too. Bullies shouldn't be bullies and should be hunted to the ends of the earth, and destroyed. What is the *cause* of bullying behaviors? Why would anyone choose to be cruel, manipulative and selfish? What is the 'Dark Triad'? Which feature of the 'Dark Triad' is most closely associated with bullying? Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying What can be done about bullying? How can TEAM therapy help someone who is being bullied? Can TEAM therapy help a bully? What can parents do, if their child is being bullied? Can TEAM help? What can parents do, if their child is bullying? Can TEAM help? What can society do? Other Questions: What is the “Internal Bully”? How does the “Internal Bully” relate to depression? What is the greatest predictor of bullying behavior and thinking? Who's to blame, anyway, here?
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Hello, Rhonda.
Hello, David, and welcome to all of our listeners around the country and throughout the world and the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast, and it's episode 417. We have two special guests, Matt May, who's a frequent visitor to our podcast. Hi, Matt.
Hey, Rhonda. Hi, Matt.
And we have a repeat guest, Manuel Sierra, who is a child and adolescent psychiatrist currently living in Idaho. He did his fellowship at Massachusetts General Hospital, and he did his residency with Matt at Stanford. And one special thing about Manuel that many people don't know is that he grew up with David and Tom.
Together they wrestled bears and mountain lions, which I'm sure we'll hear more about in the podcast.
Yeah, we actually, what we didn't mention was that we spent a couple of years in Hong Kong, too. You know, when we were like six. And we had to go to the zoo there to wrestle animals.
Wow. It was easier back then. There wasn't as many protective gates and stuff in the Sonora Desert. But those were their formative years. That's where we learned how to both bully and protect against bullying.
Wow, that's awesome. I love that. And you just said the name of our podcast, the topic of our podcast today is on bullying.
It's on brand, yeah. It's not a funny topic, a very serious and horrible topic, but one that I think is really needed. We're lucky to have you, Manuel, and Matt, to give us a little of the inside scoop on the best way to think about bullying and to change the way you think if you're being bullied, which is probably half of what we'll talk about. And then the other half would be...
what to say, how to use the five secrets of effective communication or whatever verbal strategies to respond to the bully. So you've got your inner dialogue, which is the way you're thinking about yourself, the messages you're giving yourself if you're being bullied, and then the outer dialogue is what you're going to say to the other person.
And Matt and Manuel have some fantastic answers to those two questions.
Well, could you just start off by explaining what you mean by bullying?
Sure. Well, what I would also just say real quickly is that – so bullying obviously is extremely serious. They talk about one out of four to up to 50 percent of people experience bullying of some kind. And then there's extremely severe where we have to really – always I think we need to step in and we'll go through techniques and everything.
But there's higher suicide risks for kids who are being severely bullied. There's physical aggression. We're going to talk about when to go to an adult. Well, you should always go to an adult. We're going to talk about how parents can also try to get – You know, their kids find out if they're being bullied, some of the warning signs and trying to get them professional help.
And, you know, we've got to work in the systems with the teachers, the schools. And, you know, we can go from the inner self, the family. The neighborhoods, the school systems. But anyway, we just want to make sure we know that people are being severely bullied. We really do need to step in and can make a difference.
What I think we'll talk a lot about, too, is, you know, what about the average kind of person, you know, when you're getting made fun of? People are picking on you for the way you look, for dressing differently. A lot of times they're pretty darn good at picking out our insecurities and just riding on those until we feel more guilt, embarrassment, shame. So anyway—
We've got to make sure that people know there's resources available, going to teachers, parents, kind of what to look for. There's the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, ACAP, has a website that people can find resources on about bullying. There's also Mass General Hospital, MGH Clay Center, C-L-A-Y, so MGH Clay Center.
They also have a lot of kind of cool things for people to go on there, look up different topics like bullying, phones, everything. So anyway, and then, you know, that's a resource there. But Matt actually looked up a lot of stuff on bullying last night. I have my definitions, but I imagine they're fairly similar to what you've been reading.
Yeah, Manuel, that was fantastic. There are many different types of bullying is one thing I discovered in my Wikipedia review last night. There's the psychological, there's the physical, and I guess more and more we're seeing cyber bullying of kids online, which is quite problematic. You can make a video of someone doing something ridiculous and
Suddenly the whole school knows about it, and kids are quite sensitive to that kind of shaming and emotional abuse.
Yeah, especially these days too where there's – People can do the cyberbullying where they think they have anonymity, and oftentimes they might. People generally know who the person is who's bullying them, or at least suspect who it is. But what's the worst is when kids are making videos, which seems... Like they do so much.
And unfortunately, they're getting more sexual and those kinds of things obviously can lead to kids dropping out of school. They get shared. It's just it's horrific. And so there's a lot of trying to teach people how to be safe. But, yeah, bullying is when you have, you know, there's all kinds of different variations, definitions.
But generally, it's when you have somebody with some power differential who is vulnerable. purposely and malignantly kind of targeting somebody else. And so it's not always necessarily there's power differential, you know, be bigger, stronger, uh, smarter, faster, you know, kind of like some of my bullies were. And then, so they're kind of, again, going and repeatedly, uh,
kind of harassing and trying to make somebody's life miserable, either physically, like I said, and that's one that always, always, always needs to be reported to teachers and parents. You know, the other part where this gets into is that You know, a lot of times it's like people do tell. Well, actually, more times they don't because of the embarrassment and shame.
But a lot of times kids will say, okay, I'm being bullied. And then, you know, mom or dad calls a school or tells a teacher, the teacher says, hey, you stop that. And guess what? That almost never works. So when we're trying to use some of the things we're talking about today, again, we're trying to just talk about the –
the middle group who might get bullied, and how do we kind of help them think differently? Because that's where a lot of it's going to work. I mean, we need to do the work and the systems and everything to try to prevent it to getting to that level where kids are seriously contemplating suicide and leading to depression. But, you know, if we get kids...
thinking in the team way and cognitive behavioral therapy, then less likely to internalize those humiliating moments and maybe not feel so afraid to just walk down the hallway or want to skip school because these kids are going to be waiting for them and harassing them and bullying them. So I'll let Matt go first.
Well, I have one question. I won't be saying a lot in this episode because I don't have a lot of knowledge. You guys do, except where I can contribute is on the messages we give ourselves to make ourselves miserable. But what I wanted to ask about is, to me, I've pretty much always viewed human nature as having a duality
of a positive, joyous, loving side to human nature and an inherently dark, sadistic, hurtful side of human behavior, and that they're both absolutely inherent things. in human nature uh you know a lot of people the pope recently made the statement that human beings are inherently good and and you know to me that sounded like a lot of non-nonsense a lot of silly overly idealistic thinking
But I think the thing that's hard for people to grasp is that in all of us, and you see it out in the open when someone's bullying someone, they're really getting a sexual and sadistic thrill out of inflicting pain and humiliation on someone who can't defend himself or herself or themself.
But I'm just throwing that out there to see if you guys have that same view of human nature that they're bullying. It seems to me it's like a great example of sadistic behavior is what it is to my way of thinking.
I think – yeah, I mean I agree. There's a lot of good in most people and we all have – can be an ugly side and I think bullying also comes into that category. wanting to fit in and not be different.
So, you know, if they talk about bullying, you've got the bully, you've got the victim, uh, for looking at kind of more of that psychodynamic or dynamic ways, but you also have the bystanders, the people who are observing and all of these things can have an influence, but yeah, what's happening at home to this bully, you know, we were, I know Matt, we're going to talk about that, you know, cause it's like, do I,
Because there's always like, well, just think how bad they have it. If you're being bullied, you're like, I don't care how bad they have it. I don't want them to go home and get their butt whooped and I want them to get shamed some more. I hope that happens so that they know how I feel. But you get those kids and it's like, where do they pick that up?
But in a broader sense, to get back to my original point, is that a lot of us can all of a sudden find ourselves, right? You have a friend, your childhood friend. Now we introduce a third friend who's maybe there.
cooler and then your two friends start hanging out together more and all of a sudden you're the butt of the jokes or all of a sudden the other person we're making fun of them there is something that's like oh it feels good to be on top and as opposed to you know just truly being a sadistic psychopath or something that is just totally getting off on causing the shame and humiliation to somebody else there's i think a lot of kids kind of
can experience going into that once they get a little taste of power. Um, and then you get also trying to control a situation where you get, uh, you know, middle school seems to be a big place where it starts. People start noticing differences. We get, start getting into hormones, start getting into shame, guilt more. Whereas, you know, grade school, typically we're just like, yay, it's fun.
Recess time. I get milk and cookies. Um, And then all of a sudden it's like, hey, this kid's different. And then girls are really good at doing the psychological. Like they're more mature and smarter than us at that age. And they take it to a whole new level sometimes. And, you know, whereas boys might just be more like, oh, look at you. You're weak. You stink.
you're fat, you're skinny, you're tall, you're short. And anyway, so getting ahead of myself here, but yeah, I do think that, you know, we got to also work on how do we address the bullies. And I sometimes think if we look at them as sadistic, you know, Machiavellian psychopaths, you know, Matt talk about the triad, but, um, Anyway, that's Matt.
Go ahead. Great points, Manuel. Yeah, to your question, David, it does seem like there's an inherent feature to human psychology. There's not been a generation of humans where there wasn't bullying and cruelty. And I think it is important to understand the motivation behind. Behind it in order to help kind of deal with bullying.
And so one of it is that just sadistic desire to, you know, enjoy causing harm and feeling powerful, which is sociopathic and There's also Machiavellian, as you mentioned, to get power and influence through control and manipulation and lying and innuendo. And then there's also a narcissistic motivation, which is the belief that – I am superior and therefore I deserve more.
I deserve your lunch money as well as my own lunch money. And so I'm just going to take it from you because I deserve it. But I think there's probably a genetic basis behind all of these and that you will find different amounts of those traits in different human beings.
Couldn't it also be a learned behavior? Yeah.
It can, you know, that poop rolls downhill, so you're good. Get some of the – get brought up in a – you know, the bully mom or dad or takes out on the kids. It certainly is that aspect. That's where we start saying, well, what's going on in the home?
But again, we get a lot of these kids that – you know, so there's the – certainly those are the severe ones that have these kind of issues who actually get off on that. And then there's the ones who, yeah, what kind of life are they having at home or, you know, their parent, older sibling – Uncle, aunt, somebody they maybe look up to who treats them that way or kids in the neighborhood.
So, yeah, and you get the bullies who are bullied who can often be dangerous as well because they're not only on this end of it when they're on this end of it. And we really have to look out for kids like that and what's developing through learned and internalizing. But this is where I think David actually is going to be talking a lot about
in this because what I love about David is like how freeing it is to with some of the techniques and the way we look at it and kind of putting the ego aside because I think that's where we all kind of get tripped up in this insecure and poor self-esteem and oh I want to do anything I can avoid to draw attention to myself and people are going to make fun of my zit on my nose or make fun of my shirt or
You know, all the things that kids can pick out and all of a sudden something even that we thought like, hey, I really like this shirt. Now it's like, oh, gosh, this one kid made fun of it. Other people laughed. And this is the dumbest shirt ever. Why did my mom buy it for me? She hates me.
Yeah, sure. That's cool. You brought us a list of great questions and various things, Matt, but including a list of 10 questions.
thoughts that you've seen about by people doing a daily mood log about bullying because bullies can certainly hurt you physically but if they can't make you feel ashamed or guilty or less than or inadequate only your thoughts can do that and so that is one type of freedom that's fairly accessible.
The art form of how to interact with the bully is quite a different issue and equally important for sure. But I'll read a few of these. It was all my fault. I deserved it. This happened because I'm bad, weak, defective, different, et cetera. So that would be the self-blaming response. And one thing, I have this, what I call the contract, the abuse contract that...
we enter into with someone who's abusing us. And I'm not saying that all human beings do, but I think... you know, a good half or more of human beings do. For example, I can remember a woman I treated who had horrible, sadistic sexual abuse from a babysitter when she was a little girl from age 5 to 10.
And the babysitter said, if you tell on me, I'll murder your sister, who was two years younger. But her thoughts were, it was my fault. If anyone found out, they'd think I liked it. and one other that slipped my mind. But the three-way contract between the abuser and the abused is I get to abuse you for my pleasure. That's the first part of the contract.
And as you say, Manuel and Matt, it can be sexual abuse, it can be physical abuse, it can be financial, it can be psychological abuse. Whatever. The second is that this is all on you. This is happening to you because you deserve it. And I'm superior and totally innocent. You're the dirty one. You're the bad one, the defective one.
And then the third part of the abuse contract is, if you tell any, we have to keep this secret, even from ourselves. that there's anything wrong or abnormal going on here. And if you tell anyone, then it's going to be the last thing you ever do. And this was a very bright woman. And it was 40 years later when I treated her. But she was still following those rules. She had never told anyone.
She was still feeling guilty and ashamed. The man who abused her eventually got in a bar fight and got shot and murdered when she was 10. So that stopped the abuse. But she kept suffering for the next 40 years. But I really thought she characterized that abuse contract. And she was an extremely brilliant woman. And yet she had subconsciously bought into that.
And I think the bullies rely on the weaker ones to buy into that contract. And that's part of what's so horrible about it. And that's where we can help people with these negative thoughts, the self-blaming thoughts. And the self-critical thoughts. I'm done on my rant there.
That was really helpful and informative, David. And you shared that with me in the past, and it helped me really understand the dynamic there and how to help people get out of it. A lot of it having to do with talking back to those kinds of thoughts and just becoming aware that those thoughts are in our mind. is the first step, getting them on paper like the Daily Mood Log.
I wanted to say one other thing about Rhonda's question about learned behavior. I think that's definitely true. There was something I was reading last night in my preparation for today that said that one of the most influential
associations around bullying predictors of bullying is whether or not the person believes that the authority figure in their life would approve of it and so if you have a parent who is abusive and bullying and you know subscribes to this idea of you know might is right and you know
take advantage of people, bully them, then it's much more likely that as a child you would engage in bullying yourself. And I think that there are positive reinforcements that occur there. You know, if you bully someone and people laugh, that's a type of reinforcement. If you bully someone and you take something from them, Now, that's reinforcement as well.
And there can be negative types of reinforcement where you get more attention, even if it's negative attention, because kids desire that. And so often it's kids who aren't getting enough attention who will act out in ways that are antisocial.
Thanks, Matt. Yeah, so, and then I was thinking to get back to kind of, you know, how do we help kids who are going through this, right? Because we know most of us when we're, well, throughout life, but certainly in middle school and high school, we kind of feel self-conscious. We want to fit in. And it can be kind of devastating when all of a sudden,
Our peers, a friend who we thought was a friend or just, you know, other kids at the school who are maybe more popular or tougher or all the things that could happen. And then we just feel like, oh, my gosh, you know, and we can get kids start having more headaches, wanting to refuse school, grades dropping. Yeah.
You know, and those are some of the signs for parents, like what's going on here, you know, because like I said earlier, is that sometimes, you know, kids will tell a teacher or a parent, but nothing really happens. That doesn't stop the other kid from doing what they're doing. So, you know, but then also that kids, when it comes to that, so secret, they'll tell all of us.
your secrets embarrass you in front of everybody but you know their own they'll keep these things near and dear which is we got to try to help them not to recognize that that's not shameful right that somebody called you names or made you feel horrible or picked on you because you looked a certain way you know we need to be like that's that's not your shame so that's where we kind of work with the kids there is okay let's look at the things that this person's saying to you
And this is where I like with David, because it's always about the process. It's not trying to remember some phrases that I'm going to say to them. I mean, that can be helpful in situations. But, you know, a lot of times it's, you know, it's like, OK, you've got this bully who's going to absolutely try to run you down. Right. In terms of the way you look, the way you act, everything.
And it's like, how do I not internalize that? So how does that only get me, you know?
this upset or for anybody listening i'm holding my hands kind of you know three inches four inches apart versus this upset where i'm holding way apart you know and then how do i you know keep that duration for this long and again now i'm holding them close together versus that long meaning yes it's embarrassing could be humiliating it Not great. Other kids were sitting there.
That cute girl or boy who I like also laughed because they just said something about, you know, the way I looked or something. And. Now I feel devastated. And I'm going home that night just sitting there curled up in a ball, feeling that pit in my stomach going, oh, I can't believe this person. And everybody in the whole school now thinks I'm a complete idiot or whatever it is.
So we're trying to get like, how do we get that? Like, yep, that's embarrassing. Oh, geez. But then I'm not. going home and thinking about it or sitting through the rest of school terrified or embarrassed or humiliated. So those are going to be some of the things that I think we talk about that are great to help kids kind of, how do I address this?
And kind of a process, which you guys know all about the process, which is all these wonderful techniques we use to help make it, to take the teeth out of those kinds of comments and that kind of repeated bullying process.
So I want to see if I understand part of what you just said, which was really good. I think you said it's going to be kind of okay and inevitable to feel some embarrassment, humiliation, shame. anxiety, hurt, fear, anger, when it's happening.
But we can give you some tools to talk back to the thoughts that are creating those feelings so that you don't have to be carrying around those feelings for prolonged periods of time and that we can learn to... to have peace of mind, I think you're saying, for longer and longer periods of time.
Like you maybe can't prevent yourself from having automatic reactions in the here and now, but one can go back, write down your negative thoughts, recognize the distortions in them, and talk to yourself in a more realistic and loving and accepting way. Is that kind of what you were saying?
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like I think when we talked about racism, used some examples. But, you know, you guys are obviously do such a great job of looking at automatic thoughts. And I like the way that, you know, we frame them automatic as opposed to their cognitive distortions or, you know, thinking errors and other things.
It's like we all get these automatic thoughts, our ability to kind of catch them, recognize them, challenge them. That's where the work's right. That's where we practice and practice and you get better. And I always tell people, I still get embarrassed. I still get anxious. I still get angry. I still feel all of these things.
Hopefully the difference is, is that it's, you know, kind of for this long, this intensity for that long, instead of, you know, huge intensity for hours or days. And that's by practicing some of the things. And I always tell them too, it's like professional athletes, musicians, they practice all the time. It's not because they're terrible, right?
They're the best in the world generally, but they're still practicing. So I, cause sometimes there's that thought that, well, once I just, you know, I won't let it bug me. And I'll be on my way and it'll never bug me again.
Manuel, it sounds like, you know, I'm reminded of a kid in my neighborhood that lived in one of my neighbor's children who was a boy probably in sixth grade who had been bullied the whole school year by a girl in his class. And he felt so shamed about it that he didn't tell his parents. He didn't.
He might have told his teacher, but the teacher was just so busy with a huge class number that she didn't pay too much attention to it. And the only reason that came forward is because eventually this girl threw a shoe at him and he hit it and he came home with a mark on his forehead. And then it came out. And I'm wondering from what you've described –
Is there, you know, and of course working with the kids and the thoughts that they're having, this question is a little bit off that subject, but is there any training for teachers and school personnel besides parents on how to address it, identify it?
Yeah, I think they do some trainings and there are definitely some models that I think are going to be helpful where you're getting people in there. You're also trying to get the bystanders. You're also trying to get, you know, the bully.
And again, the level of severity, you know, I think that, like I said, I've talked about kind of the middle, which that person would be in the middle until it got that severe. And we don't know about it, but yeah. It is a tough thing because as Matt had kind of put down so much questions, there's like, oh, it builds character. Oh, everybody does that.
So then we're trying to gauge, well, where is this? I mean, this is to the point where this person is hounded relentlessly, so afraid to go to school and they're just getting stomachaches and headaches and grades are dropping out. They're feeling thoughts of suicide. You know, it's like, when do we step in?
I wish we were doing more training with teachers and student bodies on, you know, hey, look, how do we look out for one another? You know, how do we kind of recognize if we see something to help these kids? Because, again, we all know that rarely does it happen where a teacher or a parent addresses the bully and they say, oh, okay, I'll stop.
And usually it's like, oh, I'm going to get you later, sucker. You know it. You told on me. Now you're really in trouble. And that's, I think, a part of that. So working with the teachers is important. You know, I feel horrible these days for teachers because, you know,
They get all the electronics, all the other things, the IEPs, the 504s, and they're trying to learn how to – I just want to learn how to teach math and help these kids. And then it's like you have to be a counselor. You have to be a bully expert. You have to be a learning disorder expert. Anyway, so yeah, but yeah, there is definitely trainings, and I think it is helpful and we need to do.
that so that we have a trusted person in their life and let's tell them like it could be a parent it could be a counselor a teacher but it is important to be able to go talk to somebody because we shouldn't have to just deal with this on our own i mean i still don't know how to deal with it you know in my nice old age let alone how does a 12 year old or a 15 year old 10 year old did did you have any bullying when you were growing up manuel
Oh, yeah, I had gads of money I took from those kids. No. But it was interesting because, yes, I was bullied for sure. And I remember, you know, it was a lot of, depending on where we lived, it was on my race. We were very poor, so it could be on my clothes. You know, and I was short, so there was that. And I wore glasses, so four eyes. And then, of course, you know, one that I think
Everybody still we get is sexual orientation. So, you know, I don't know of a boy in junior high and high school that didn't get called a fag or gay. But for some kids, that's pretty simple. I mean, nobody liked it and nobody still likes it, especially when just trying to go through puberty.
And so and the reason I bring that up, because there's so many kids that, you know, they're like, I got called that. And I think sometimes we don't address some of the horrible, rude things that people say. And, of course, they get better and better at it of saying meaner things. It used to just be your mama jokes, right? Your mama wears combat boots.
And obviously that's evolved to meaner and horrible things that people are going to do.
you know or talk about with your mother and so us trying to process that not internalize it helps to get to the point where we're viewing it more objectively like wow there's a person saying some really rude things and gosh what kind of imagination they have that they're thinking of all this horrible stuff uh man i it's a good thing that i'm not going to i know that that you're not doing that to my mom that i'm not this horrible person but boy i could just imagine if i was
Believing all of that, I'd be really angry. I'd be really sad. I'd be really overwhelmed. So that's, again, how we work on how we kind of move outside of that as opposed to, oh, I'm this horrible person now. Or how do you talk about my mom like that? I'm an idiot.
you know it's just like wow this person's got an imagination or else boy they just keep saying the same thing over and over again like it's pretty boring to just hear how many terrible things they're going to do to my mom or about what a loser i am you know they don't have much of imagination or they have a great imagination so those are you know and that's i think some of the talking back to ourselves things um and which again we're gonna get to so i don't know how much time do we have
We have time. We have one more minute, so I'm going to talk real fast. Yeah, we don't particularly keep track, but, you know, we're doing fine.
Could we demonstrate two things that, you know, I don't want to push it too hard, but from the internal point of view, maybe we could do some externalization of voices or something, or, you know, double standard technique, or, you know, identify the distortions in some of the thoughts that might...
trigger shame like did i don't want to push you too much into this position but i was just thinking like did did did you have negative feelings like when you were bullied about being poor short four eyes uh
called a fag if you were or race or things like that did you have negative thoughts and feelings and can you recall what what what some of them were or maybe the the ones of kids who have come to you for your wonderful help as a psychiatrist well sure i mean i think the biggest one that we all kind of feel is that gosh what if everybody thinks that you know yeah
What if everybody were to think that I'm this? Or what if everybody's laughing because they called me a spic and a beaner? You know, those different things are like, oh, you know, that feels so personal and so hateful and so shameful. Even if it's not something to be ashamed of, it's still... You have to wonder. So, yeah, there's a lot of those negative thoughts.
But real quick, as you're going to do this, which I love, is I like to just still explain to the kids what I mean by those automatic thoughts and challenging them. So I use that example. I think I used it last time too. But I just think it's an easy one for people to understand that most people experience.
Like if you're walking down the hallway, you see your friend, you wave at them, they're looking right at you. And they turn away and don't wave back. So our automatic thoughts then be, you know, what happened? What did I do? Oh, my gosh. You know, who did they talk to? Did I talk about them? Or it could be, you know, some people like, oh, they slighted me. Well, screw them, then.
I'll never talk to them again. And the next time they say hi to me, I'll just be like, go to hell, you know. Or it could be like, oh, man. Not even that person likes me. I'm not that person's my friend. I don't – everybody hates me. I'm just a loser. Nobody likes me. So that's – but it's just real simple as opposed to also where somebody then – challenge that automatic thought, right?
You go up to them like, hey, hello, Earth to Matt. What? Oh, I'm in my own little world, man. I'm doing – I just see in shapes. I'm walking down the hall thinking about trying not to look stupid walking into class or if I got my homework.
And so in one case, we checked the automatic thought, and we've only got very small intensity for very small duration because we checked that as opposed to we could have gone into class the whole time going – I didn't pay attention because I'm just thinking, what did I do to make this person angry? They don't like me anymore. They won't even wave at me.
And I just keep feeding into that and feeding into that to the point, like I said, where it could have negative longer-term impacts, especially if I'm like, well, the next time I see them, I'll just be like, ugh. So anyway, that's when you talk about recognizing those automatic thoughts and challenging them. That's just a very simple one.
I tell people, as we know, that people put each other into boxes, right? All the time. We tend to do it. We don't try to. But if this person loved me, they wouldn't do this. You know, they did that. Oh, so obviously they don't love me. So we create that world for ourselves. It's very black and white. Right. And then it's like, holy smokes.
Anyway, those are the things that you guys are the experts on. That's why I love hearing you guys do the, you know, feared fantasy and talking back to your voice, because that's an important part.
of what, you know, I work with the kids on as well as, you know, trying to give them some examples of how do we process this, uh, and get better and better at practicing and practicing as opposed to just, you know, coming up with that line, but like, okay, well, you're, you're smarter than me. You're faster than me. You could hurt me.
I'm not sure what you want me to do, which can be effective way to address a bully, but I like that.
That's cool.
And,
And I also say sometimes they're going to be quick-witted, right? You could be like trying to get into an argument with them. It can just still make you look dumb. You're sitting there at 3 at night. Oh, I should have said this.
I can't believe it.
But the process again is that – and one of the – I just thought of this this morning is like kind of that David Letterman technique you used to – which is like – And you don't have to do it to the bully. This can be going on in your mind. That's what I tell them.
You don't necessarily need to get in that conversation, but you could be like, I wonder, wow, this is pretty interesting that this person would come up, choose me, pick on me for something I'm insecure about. I wonder what it is in their life that makes them dislike me. I wonder what it is that makes them so angry to see me or to want to just degrade me.
So it's still kind of a way of pulling out where it's, I'm not just internalizing it. I'm a terrible person who has a big zit on their nose, who has funny clothes or smells funny or all the things that we might be like, oh, my gosh, what's going on? Do I have a booger? Why is everybody looking at me now and laughing?
So taking an approach where we're like, oh, how can I think about this in a different way? So I'm taking it outside of just not I'm a terrible person.
Yeah, so this would be kind of like double reattribution. I just made that up and I don't know much. I thought I better use some big words and impress people pretty quick here. The one piece of the reattribution is instead of just, you know, just...
Instead of thinking, you know, why did they do this in terms of what did I do wrong or what's wrong with me, to be thinking, you know, what kind of pressures are they under or what kind of living situation are they coming from? What kind of pain are they hiding or what are they trying to achieve? And then you also mentioned... responding in non-defensive or adversarial ways.
I would have a suggestion if people want to try, and keep in mind that nine out of ten of my suggestions end up on the cutting room floor, so that's fine. But I was thinking we could do some feared fantasy or externalization of voices on the kinds of thoughts that one of us or all of us might be having when we're bullied and see if we can crush those thoughts.
And then secondly, we could do kind of a feared fantasy thing and practice, you know, what is going to be effective ways of responding to a bully. So we could go into the theater of bullying, you know, and interact with the bully from hell to do the verbal responses. And then we can go into the...
mind of of someone who's being bullied and see if we can help help crush those those thoughts would that make sense yeah yeah so oh i was going to just use another quick example that basically what you're saying and then we'll do the example that in in a very thorough way which is you know like i'll tell people is that you know if
and I want to brush up on this a little bit, but, you know, somebody calls me a fake, a meaner, a fag, a horrible name, or a smelly, whatever, right?
And if I'm sitting there thinking about, okay, so this is the way this person is characterizing me, is saying these things, and they're trying to make me feel bad, they're trying to hurt me, they're trying to embarrass me, and I can also get to the point where we're like, well, why do I have to take that, right? I...
I'm not going to have a bad day or feel horrible because this person is purposely going out of their way to be a jerk, to be mean, to make me feel that way. So if I kind of get outside of my head on that and get better and better at that, it's like, wait, okay, wait. Wow, this guy's got some really colorful, horrible language.
They're saying some mean things about me or they started this rumor that, you know. I got pregnant by a donkey. I had all the horrible things that someone says, like, and I'm going to, like, that hurts. That's embarrassing. That's, whoa, I hope people don't believe that. But why am I going to right now just be like, wow, I'm going to buy into this.
and just have a horrible, horrific day and think worse of myself when this person's purposely trying to do that. Like, I don't want to give them that kind of pleasure, power over me. It's like, how do I kind of just be, wow, this person, I need to look at this as like a science specimen that's just saying these things.
And I just interpret all I'm hearing as I feel horrible about myself or I'm just trying to be mean and make you mad. And as opposed to getting caught up in all of the words they're saying, all of the meanings, right? It's like, wait, how do I kind of remove myself and challenge those things as opposed to right now? How do I react? Because that's the problem, right?
Is that somebody comes up to me and says something really mean or horrible. It's like, well, especially when you're self-conscious, is that I feel like I have to react immediately. And we're trying to work on how to not react, right, and then how to maybe say something or not say something and be like, okay, wow, that's amazing. That was really good.
That boy, that one, he put some stank on that one. I don't even know how to think about that. That was so disgusting or mean or hateful. But, you know, I don't have to sit there and be a part of that. If I get caught up in the everybody's laughing at me, Then I'm just embarrassed and feeling like a fool, and everybody must think that. So anyway, yeah, I love watching you guys doing your...
But essentially, just to simplify what you're saying, which is already simple, is to say that we do have a choice about how we're going to interpret a situation, how we're going to think about it, and we can get into a hypnotic trance of despair and anger and humiliation and guilt and shame and thinking about what's wrong with me and...
woe be me and this is awful or we can be thinking about that person like where are they coming from you know why are they doing this is this how they get their kicks their thrills are they feeling insecure on some level whatever is going on with them and that also that could have to do with our body language and how we respond to them because we might say oh wow that
that's even more colorful than the one you gave me yesterday, which itself was pretty far out. And I can't wait to see what you'll come up with for tomorrow. And I have to hand it to you. And you might consider a career as a horror novelist like Stephen King, and you could write awesome novels and make movies and make millions of dollars. I've got to hand it to you. You are good.
You're a good shit, as they so often say.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that can be – we're trying to teach them to have that internal dialogue because while they're doing that and thinking about it, whether they're responding or not, that's less time that they're sitting there taking in that I must be terrible, horrible, defective person.
Why else would somebody say that and why else would people stand around and laugh or not do anything about it?
So Manuel, can I – so instead of focusing on I must be a terrible person to being picked on, you're encouraging that child or whoever is being picked on to observe what's happening in the moment kind of in a neutral way. Like, oh, that's interesting. This is what's going on right now.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So this person is purposely trying to make me feel bad. embarrass me, shame me, hurt me, make me have a terrible day. Like, why would I want, like, they can keep talking, saying all the things they're saying. It's just like, you know, how do I get to that point where I'm not taking that in, absorbing it, and feeling like it must be true?
They can invite me to beat up on myself for the next 12 hours, but I'm not obligated to accept the invitation.
Right. And trust me, I've done a much better job of beating up on myself than this person has. I mean, they came up with some things I hadn't thought of yet.
Yeah, right. And that would be a great verbal response, too. Yeah, so you don't do nearly as good a job beating up on me as I do on myself, but I'll have to hand it to you. You come up with, you're more creative than I am.
Not only are you stronger, superior, you're smarter. I mean, man, you are dang.
Yeah, and you can put me number one on your fan club because I've been admiring you for a long time, you big, cute guy.
And all the special attention. I mean, wow, you went out of your way. You've been thinking about me a lot to come up with that.
Yeah, yeah. See, a lot of people do think about me a lot, and I'm just so glad to include you in the group.
We're going to have to work on the delivery, but I like it.
Yeah, yeah. That's good. That's good. Okay, now, I'm telling myself that I'm a terrible, horrible person, and all these people are laughing at me and looking down on me, and I'm feeling incredibly ashamed and humiliated. I'm feeling weak and inadequate, and this fellow's really strong and... I might have to use my karate and kick him in the testicles.
And it just hurts me so badly to hurt someone like that. No, I'm just being ridiculous now. But I'm just feeling like I'm just a loser. So what help can you give me?
Who are we talking to then? So you guys are the ones who get the more time to actually do this. Oh, no, you do. I get the 30 minutes of psychopharmacology and therapy. So I'm working and we're helping, you know, kind of keep working on the concepts and reminding and having them work with their counselor more on the automatic thoughts because we have more time to actually do that.
So that's what I'm loving to hear. Go for it.
Let's do some externalization of voices. You want to, Matt and Rhonda?
Sure. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a good practice to introduce and can be so helpful to anyone who's being abused or bullied or picked on. And do you want me to be the positive thoughts person?
Either way. Sure. Sure, we can do. Rhonda and I will be Matt's negative thoughts. In this exercise, actually all of us are named Matt. Okay. And we're going to be Matt's negative thoughts. These are the things he's telling himself. And we're going to attack him with his own thoughts.
And your job, Matt, is to speak in the first-person eye and see if you can defeat us and you can use three strategies, the acceptance paradox, the self-defense paradigm, the counterattack technique, or a fourth option would be other, any other technique you want to use. So give us a few negative thoughts so we'll know what your negative thoughts are.
I think some of the classics are things like, oh, I'm worthless. Or I'm a loser.
I'm worthless. I'm a loser. But let's just start with that, okay?
Yeah.
And also you've listed ten really scary negative thoughts, really painful negative thoughts on the sheet that you passed to us.
Sure, yeah. The email that you sent. We can work through those. I like Manuel's thought, like everyone's looking down on me or everyone's judging me.
Yeah, okay, good one. Everyone's looking down on that.
Yeah, and you're tall, and everybody notices it, so you're gangly. You have a big red zit on your nose.
Right there.
You look, yeah. Might as well name that thing.
Yeah, I'm going to name it Manuel because it's so big and ugly.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Manuel, you also said, everyone hates me. Yeah.
Okay, are you ready, Matt?
Ready when you are. Bring on the negative thoughts.
Okay. Now, keep in mind, this is not training for interacting with the bully. This is interacting with the inner bully, the thoughts that you give yourself and how to talk back to those. Because in the last analysis, you're the only one who can really bully yourself, although that might sound uncharitable. But could I talk to you for a minute, Matt?
Sure. Are you my negative thoughts?
Yes, I am, and I'm aware that the kids at school were kind of bullying you and laughing at you, and I wanted to tell you why that is.
Oh, do you have a hypothesis or a guess?
No, it's not a hypothesis. It's a fact. Oh, a fact. A fact of the universe, and that's because you're worthless, and that's why everyone hates you.
Oh, gosh, worthless, yeah. Yeah. I actually disagree with you on that. I think I'm priceless because I'm not for sale.
Okay. Who won?
I felt good on that one.
Big or small?
That was pretty big. Hit me with it again.
Okay. You can hit him, Rhonda, with the same exact thing.
Yeah, Matt, you know, you're kind of worthless because everybody hates you.
Oh, gosh, worthless. You know, I do have lots of flaws and shortcomings. I could improve in a lot of different dimensions, and I'm actually totally fine with that because I think I'm in good company there.
Okay, so let's also mix that up a little in terms of we're in middle school, right? And so you can tell me you're okay, you big, tall, fat loser with the zit on your face. You can tell me you're okay with feeling that way, but we all know. Everybody here thinks you're a loser.
And now is this externalization of voices or feared fantasy?
Oh, I fear I don't know what I externalized. Are you my thoughts? Yes, yes, I was kind of going along the same thing. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, yeah, okay.
Because, well, it's kind of like, I mean, David obviously pointed out that I was now playing the bully in that, but, you know, it is kind of still going along some of those negative thoughts that are your own.
Yeah, yeah. So a couple things there. I think it's extremely unlikely that everyone thinks exactly the same way and that everyone is judging me and looking down on me. I think there are lots of really compassionate, thoughtful people out there who would witness bullying and want to come to my aid and care about me a lot.
And for those people who are enjoying looking down on me or criticizing me, I don't have to care about them. It's not on me to be concerned about their thoughts. That can be something that they take along with them and doesn't belong to me.
And that's a very mature thing. Which is where we're trying to get them to. What we're doing right now, though, is kind of thinking about how a middle schooler or high schooler who's – take yourself back to that insecure – which we want to show them the positive because that is where we want to get to. I just think initially they're going to be like, I don't believe that one bit.
Not everybody does think that, right? I mean I'm convinced that everybody actually thinks I'm not a good person.
Yeah, I could ask, well, specifically whom? Who thinks that about me, and how do I know?
And actually, after each of Matt's responses, let's see, ask him who won, and if he won small, big, or huge, and see if he can get up to huge.
I just want to bully this guy, man.
Yeah, go for it. I'm feeling good about my responses right now, and so feel free to pile on. You could add more negative thoughts to try to get me with them.
Yeah. Well, I'm just like, like I said, is that you're, when we're trying to work with adolescents, um, And preteens is that that's not generally the way they're going to think. Like we model that for them because that's good. Right. I mean, that's as an adult, that's a big win. Right. Is it? Wait a minute. I'm actually starting to see that. Wait, not every.
Let's do a role reversal manual. So could I play the negative thought? And I'd love to hear what you might say to a patient. If I were a patient and I'm struggling with this negative thought. How would you respond if I'm attacking you with it and saying, hey, you know, everyone is judging you. Everyone's looking down on you and thinking what a loser you are. Nobody likes you.
What would be a more appropriate way for someone in that age range?
Well, I'm much better beaten up on the negative because I'm trying to channel the adolescent. But, you know, when I work with them, it's like, well, let's examine that, just like you were doing. Well, let's examine that. So everybody in the school hates you, right? Hates me, speaking the first person on. Hates me, sorry, hates me. And then it's like, well... It's not necessarily true.
There's, you know, there's that one person who doesn't spit on me when they walk by me. The teacher seems to tolerate me a little, I guess, sometimes. The principal, you know, there's that one kid who I was nice to once and, you know, they're nice to me.
So, I mean, I would try to get them, but this is like you guys know, we'd have to get what their thoughts are because it's hard for me to use that. I'm just trying to think of it. How do we make it for the adolescent who does feel awfully awkward and like they don't fit in and wondering if their hands are in the right position or are they standing too straight? Are they on top?
Yeah, I know.
The extremely self-conscious and where when somebody points something out, like even just something stupid like, oh, look at that. You got a hair hanging down like a curl. Who are you trying to be? Jerry Curl or Jerry Lewis? Little things like that that kind of come out. So that's what I was just saying is that I love that.
we're doing and that's where we want to get them to I'm just trying to think of how we might respond to those things so like instead of taking the where am I at in the middle school can we do one and you be the adolescent girl and I'm the bully and how would you respond sure let's okay and then we're going into feared fantasy not externalization of voices right Rhonda either
Well, I mean, they're going to be different. So we have to know which universe we're in.
Well, I was thinking this is still externalization of voices.
But I can move it into food fantasy. So then you're Manuel's negative self. Your name is—and what's Manuel's name?
Manuel?
And this is a girl.
Let's have it be my negative thought.
Okay, so you're both Rhonda.
You're both Rhonda.
And you're going to be the positive, self-loving Rhonda, and Rhonda's going to be the self-critical Rhonda. And she's going to speak in the second person, you, and you can speak in the first person, I. And she's the self inside you that's going to try to tear you down. Is that right, Rhonda?
Yeah.
And then you see if you can defeat that negative voice in your head.
Yeah. Okay. You know, I heard you had a crush on Danny, but you're not cute enough to go out with Danny. You're kind of ugly.
That's true. Danny's always with those really pretty girls who are popular. So, see, right there I'm already like, boy, I'm getting whooped.
I think that's why the practice is important. Exactly. Yeah.
So, I mean, I guess how would I talk about it? Yeah, he might date really pretty girls, and I might not be as pretty as some of those, but they're probably not very nice, or at least I know I am nice, and I'm a good person, and I know how to be a good friend and listen.
Who won that, Manuel? Me, the negative, attacking voice, or you?
I think... You, just in my mind, because I still haven't, I don't think that I believe it yet as a teenage girl who clearly is not have been invited.
Like your response was weak and it didn't work.
That's great.
That's true. We all agree. Now, let's do a role reversal and see if Rhonda can model something more effective. You be the negative Rhonda and Rhonda will be the positive Rhonda and say exactly the same thing that she said to you.
But Rhonda, you're an ugly girl. This guy you like is never going to date you. You're just not worth it. Everybody knows that you're ugly and gawky and not prom worthy.
Oh, ouch, ouch. Well, I am really gawky. And I'm probably, you know, I am pretty ugly for my age. There are lots of prettier girls than me.
All that is totally true, and I guess it doesn't really matter because I sit next to Danny in my math class, and we hang out together all the time, and we are doing homework together, and I guess he doesn't care that I'm ugly and gawky because we're having a lot of fun together, and that's really what matters.
So who won that, Rhonda? I think I did. Big or small?
I think that was big.
Big or huge?
It actually feels huge. They've got huge enough.
Yeah, I like that. You did?
Yeah, I like that. What did you like about it? Well, I like that you said, hey, we sit next to each other. I mean, so you had some inside information there or some other things. But it's like, hey, we're still friends. Not so ugly that he won't talk to me. We're actually still having fun. So it doesn't matter, right, if he's going to.
date you or somebody it's not you're not worthless i like how you did that well thank you i'd love to hear david's response david could you uh play play ronda and when we're already at huge i can't oh yes i can i can give a better response than that sure you want to hit me hit me with it ronda or you want to hit me with it man or i'll be the positive ronda
Matt. Yeah. Rhonda, you know, I, sorry to tell you this, but you're kind of Rhonda too, right? I'm Ron. I'm, uh, yes, I'm, I'm Rhonda. Uh, negative Rhonda.
Could you comb your hair a little Matt?
Sorry about that. I'm a mess today. I'm a mess. Yeah, Rhonda, I'm your negative thoughts. And I just wanted to let you know that you're not attractive enough for Danny. He's way out of your league and he's not interested in you because you're gawky and awkward.
Well, I am kind of gawky and awkward, and I'm at that time of life where things are rapidly changing and evolving, but I have a lot of fun with Danny, and I can survive if I have a crush on him and he doesn't have a crush on me.
We get along really well, and we study together and have fun together, and I give myself a lot of points for that because I don't see him doing that with a lot of other girls. And I think we are really good friends, and that's not a bad thing. But there is one person who really seems to hate me. It's actually not Danny. I just have one real enemy.
Oh, who's that?
That's you. And so to quote the Buddha, stick it where the sun don't shine.
Was that a big win? I thought so. I thought so, too. I thought that was huge.
Right. And so there I was just taking the very excellent thing that you had done, Rhonda, but I was adding the counterattack technique. Now, the counterattack technique is not necessarily something you use on the bully. I think we'd use other more humorous techniques. But this is something you use on the bully, the inner bully, the bully in your brain.
And it's very powerful to stand up to that bully because that's the only bully that can ever make you feel bad. And I might say, too, to that inner bully, that sex appeal is kind of a learned thing. And to tell you the truth, I think I am learning a little bit by my fun interactions with Danny that are sometimes playful and kind of cool and awesome.
And I'm actually proud of how Danny and I are doing. And... You know, if we don't end up getting married and having six children, that's fine. He'll just be one of the stepping stones along the way to learning to grow up and find love. But right now I want to be, you know, happy with myself, and that comes by not buying into you constantly in my ear putting me down.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's such an important thing too, is that that's the dealing with that internal bully and people always want to know how to deal. with the actual bully, but I think it's not, well, the work's not necessarily because again, you can still get punched in the nose. You could still get bullied more.
They could still, you know, cause sometimes they're about getting a laugh and being quick witted and just keep saying stupid things over and over again, which can be really hard to necessarily come out of that a winner, but it's more important of how I'm doing that.
beating the internal bully and I don't have to react it's like I am actually really I want to cry right now because you said some really mean things and I don't know what to say honestly that was you know you got me so I mean if they're trying to actually say something they could do that out loud or internally but they recognizing that yeah I don't have to come up with something that was that hurt yeah
Yeah, that that would be powerful, actually, because that would be a combination of changing the focus. And I feel statements drawing attention to the game that's going on and sharing, sharing your feelings without trying to hide them. Yeah, man, you're you're really powerful and.
You've got some, I'm sure you've got a powerful punch and kind of a powerful punch comes out of your mouth sometimes too. And I say, you know, touche, you're winning. Yeah. Way to go. You know, you got style. You're one of the biggest put-down artists here at our high school. And your fame is spreading. Yeah, we nailed it.
I love that little example of feared fantasy and how, David, you were able to throw in some stroking. Yeah. I think that's one of the features of the feared fantasy. If you're able to get that, work that into the response, I think it is kind of a win. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
We could do Rhonda's. I could play, Rhonda, would you like to respond to your bully as if they were a real person, not your negative thought? So in the feared fantasy version.
Sure. Okay.
Yeah. So what if my name's like Lindsay or something like that? And hey, Rhonda, I saw you kind of making eyes and trying to flirt with Danny earlier. But I wanted to let you know that he's way out of your league. You're just not attractive enough. I'm way more popular and beautiful than you are. And you're just a little toad by comparison.
A little toad. Yeah, wow, Lindsay. Actually, you are one of the most beautiful girls in the school. And, you know, maybe you want to be talking to Danny instead of me. And that would be okay with me. I mean... Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just a friend of his, so if you want to hang out with him, go for it. I'm just a person that he likes to hang out with in math class, and that's okay with me. Good.
Who won there? I won, but it didn't feel huge.
Not huge. Yeah. Why not huge? It didn't feel complete.
It didn't feel enough. I mean, like, here you are. You're the most beautiful. Yeah, you're right. You're beautiful. And if you want to hang out with him, go for it. I don't need to.
I'm just— Do a role reversal with Matt.
In this case, though, is that we want to make it—is that she actually does want to date Danny. She has these hopes that, you know, maybe he could see himself with a girl like her.
Yeah, it was kind of a fake response. Right. So do a role reversal. Matt will be the— I'm Rhonda now.
Okay, I'm Lindsay. Yeah. Yeah, so I saw you batting your eyelashes at Danny in class the other day, and you're just fooling yourself. You're totally an idiot if you think he's going to like you because you're just so gawky and ugly. He'd never go out with anyone like you. Oh.
Ouch, Lindsay, that kind of hurts to hear, especially coming from you. You've always had such style and grace and you're so beautiful. But I feel a little angry with you for saying that because I really like Danny. And I think I've got a chance with him. But maybe you could give me some pointers. You've got such beautiful hair. How did you accomplish that?
Do you have a special product that you use? And your makeup looks so nice today. Yeah. Tell me, what is your secret to looking so beautiful all the time?
Okay, who won?
I felt like I won. I don't know if it was huge or not.
Well, we have to ask Rhonda.
I mean, it felt like you won for sure. But it also feels unrealistic to imagine a teenage girl saying that stuff.
Okay, yeah.
But, I mean, I love that you're saying it. And it definitely felt like that was a huge win for you.
That was huge.
It felt like a huge win, but I can't imagine another girl. I'm thinking of a 13-year-old girl who's one of my clients and who's sort of a shy kid.
You wouldn't want to teach them how to do that.
Well, yeah.
I think it's what you're saying.
No. I'm saying that I think that takes a lot of courage and self-awareness.
Of course I would listen to them.
Absolutely.
That's what we're trying to get them to. But I just didn't think that in this moment where you could hear the collective teenage girls eyes roll. You know, because they don't feel that way. Just teenage boys either. I do feel like I might be. And you are so gorgeous.
And no boys will ever like me because I've got braces, skinny, and these other girls are already starting to, you know, have breasts. And I don't. And I have zits on my face. And only my mom thinks I'm pretty or cute. But nobody else does.
And they may be thinking that, and I think this is the exercise to defeat that way of thinking, that they might start there in therapy, but where they would end is through repeated efforts like this, trial and error, to get better and better at a response that feels – I agree that it needs to feel authentic to them. They need to feel like, I could say that.
But I think sometimes the reason that kids might not want to say something like what I did – is motivational. It goes back to agenda setting is would you be willing to turn this enemy into your friend by, by sincerely complimenting and liking things about them? And so you, you've got real style and grace and I've always been a big fan of yours, but I must've done something to piss you off.
You're really laying into me here. What did I say to upset you? Cause I really liked Danny and, and, uh,
No, I think that was actually a huge moralistic win. And I love that. And I love that you're saying that it's a motivational, would you be willing to turn your enemy into your friend and say something like that? Like, yeah, you're beautiful. And I, I really admire you and I don't live up to your standards. And I would love to know, like, how do you do your hair and your makeups?
Like, I would like to be more like you. Cause honestly, I do like Danny and I want him to like me too. And if you could show me how to do that, I'd love it. But, I also don't totally understand why you're being so mean to me. I've never really bugged you in the past. We hardly even know each other. So maybe you could also tell me what I've done to hurt you.
But I've been admiring you from a distance, and you're really fantastic at what you do. And I'm number one in your fan club. I like that.
Yeah, and I think part of it, too, is why I struggle is because we're all trying to make up. I mean, I think Rhonda really nailed it with that first part of like that was very middle school. Wow. Yeah. I'm sitting at this desk and this person's next to me and saying, you're not going to you can't date him. He's out of your league. It's like, oh, wow. We're getting into that frame of mind.
But we don't have the actual negative thoughts from our relationship. you know, patient. And then it is harder to be like, well, wait, I'm taking this thought, this thought. Whereas with our patients, we are going to go through that time to get what they're thinking and not just kind of a conglomeration of a teenager.
So that's probably, I mean, that's where I think I feel like I'm failing and struggling with this because it's like trying to put that with a certain patient or in general.
Well, I think you've got to do the internal dialogue first with externalization of voices until the person has really seen through the bullshit that they're giving themselves and can talk back to their own negative thoughts and not feel so threatened. Just say, try to bully David right now. Just say, Dave, go ahead, just say something, whatever you want. This will be a feared fantasy.
Okay, so how old are you, David?
82 in September. You can bully elderly people. Go ahead.
Well, I'm no good at listening to the elderly be bullied because I'm always just hearing the kids.
Better make it real than we can translate it into the fourth grade level. But just try it. I dare you. I defy you. I'm ready. Sock it to me. Rhonda, Matt.
David, look, everybody hates you. You're pretty worthless. Everyone looks down on you.
No, no, you've got it all wrong. A lot of people admire me. I think they must be desperate or have very low standards, but I can tell you I have tons of flaws, and people should probably look down on me more than they do. And there are thousands of people out there who look down on me and think I'm a kook, and they're probably half right or 75% right. Are you one of them?
I'm not anymore. Okay.
So who won that one?
You definitely won that one.
Big or small?
Big. Huge. Also because you made it kind of funny. Like, you know, finding agreement in it and then making it funny. It takes the power and the anxiety and the animosity out of it.
But the key to it is that it didn't threaten me because I've done my inner dialogue. Because, see, you've got to be able to trigger my self-hatred. That's the first key to overcoming bullying is learn to love yourself.
Oh, that's such an important part. Could you just say that again?
Well, the key to overcoming bullying is learning to love yourself. Now, I'll be a fourth grader, and you can try to bully me, Rhonda, or Manuel, or Matt.
Oh, that's such an ugly shirt. I can't believe you left the house today wearing that old rag.
Oh, you know, I love this shirt. I think I just have, I must have weird taste. But, you know, I love the way you look. It's just kind of a brown T-shirt. It's kind of a hunky, awesome look. That's cool. Mike, where did you get that one? Maybe I'll get one of those myself and wear it tomorrow.
I think that was a slam dunk. That was awesome, David.
Okay. And then how was it a slam dunk?
There was no defensiveness in it. It was also just you were willing to disagree with me and say, oh, I really like it. And I must have weird taste. I thought that was disarming. And then, you know, as your critic, it's really hard to keep criticizing you when you're complimenting me.
Yeah, and agreeing with you. A disarming technique plus stroking. But you can't do that if you're feeling threatened. That's why you've got to tend to your own inner bully first. The first thing is to change that inner dialogue.
Yeah, and if they say, David, you look like your grandma shaved her Sharpay and then put glue on you and made you roll around in it. Like, oh, man, what are you doing coming to school looking like that? You kind of actually smell like that Sharpay, too.
Actually, that's exactly what we do do every morning. We're in this strange religious cult, and we kind of do that. And I'm glad you noticed it because most kids don't seem to notice. And we're looking for soliciting new members. We have comic book, Jesus comic books and crap like that. And you can come on over and roll in the Sharpies with us.
Nice. Yeah. No, I love it. That's what we've got to do is get the kids to that point where they're filled up.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, that's the way.
Yeah. Okay. Hey, I heard from Sam that the coach pulled you out of the baseball game on Saturday in the middle of the fourth inning because you're such a lousy baseball player. You should drop off the team.
To tell you the truth, he should have pulled me out before I started. I can't hit the ball, and I'm not good at throwing or catching. But other than that, I have one of the top games in the United States. But if you think that was bad, you should have seen me at football practice.
How would this work with threats? that kids won't talk about the bullying that they're receiving. And I think oftentimes because it's that contract, if you talk about it, I'm going to hurt you worse, that David was mentioning earlier. So I wondered if...
Well, I won't talk about it if you don't want me to, but you're awesome at what you do. And if I talk about it, I think it'll help you with your reputation as being a bad boy. And, you know, the bad boys get all the girls and stuff, but whatever it is you prefer.
You can be a smart athlete, but it's still going to kick your ass when I see you after school.
Yeah, you probably will, and I'll see if I can get in a lucky blow to your nose, but I have no doubt that you're going to win because you're much stronger and bigger, and you're a tremendous athlete, and I've admired you, actually. You're good-looking, and you're smart, and you're... You know, I would say you're probably the coolest guy in school.
And you can beat me up if you want, but keep remember that I'm number one on your fan club.
Yeah, okay, so nothing, we'll do below the chin then. We'll just get midsection.
Yeah, okay, that's good, yeah. That'd be kind of like a massage. Can I tickle your midsection too? Okay.
I would give that an A+. I mean, I wonder if there's any other type of harassment or bullying that the audience would want to hear our responses to. Other negative thoughts?
Well, how about I'm going to tell everybody that you're a dirty slut and slept with Jimmy and you'll sleep with everybody.
You're going to tell people I'm a what now?
A dirty little slut who slept with Jimmy and is going to sleep with everybody and we know that that's all you do. You whore.
Well, that's the least of my faults. But that's a starting place. But I can give you a lot more, you know, a lot more of my faults to spread around. And yeah, go ahead and say those things. I've actually been taking slut training at the local Y. And so I'm glad it's beginning to show. I used to be very sincere about And I couldn't get any dates. And boy, has my life changed.
Good. I thought that was good. How did that feel to you, David? Was that a huge one?
Maybe not. I think these things, you've got to reflect on it. Let's do a role reversal, and Manuel will show us the huge win. Manuel, I'm just going to tell everyone in school that you're a little slut and a whore, and you probably want to suck my dick, you little fucking whore. I'm going to tell everybody. I can give the answer to it, too, if you want. You want to hear the response?
Yeah, let's hear the response. Yeah, please do. In fact, my cousin is a reporter for the local newspaper, and you could talk to him and tell him. He might even write it up and quote you. You could get some really cool publicity that way.
That sounds good. I like that element. Yeah. Manuel, do you want to respond to that one?
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, in this case, again, I'm trying to think about how, you know, getting them to that point, because right there could be feeling horrifying. You're telling me that, oh, my gosh, everybody in the school is going to think I'm a slut. Everybody's going to think that's all I want to do is get blowjobs and that I'll give it up.
And in fact, there's already been a couple of rumors that I slept with this guy and that guy. And I'm horribly embarrassed now and people are shaming me on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and talking about what a slut I am. Oh, my gosh. What do I do? So.
Well, I'll repeat what I've said two or three times during this podcast, and some people may hear it and some people may not. But it starts with the internal dialogue, and you've got to be able to talk back to your own thoughts. Those statements could never have an effect on a human being. Those statements do not upset children in grammar school.
only what they're telling themselves, and that's where the work begins. And once the person is no longer feeling threatened by their own inner self-abuse, then it's much easier to take a lighthearted response to someone else who's trying to bully you.
To ruin you, yeah.
And a little humor, stroking, disarming, non-defensiveness. Just say, yeah, if you just spread those slut rumors, I would appreciate it, because that's actually one of my lesser flaws, and my status might actually go up a little bit. Yeah.
Get a date with Daniel.
Yeah, right. Well, why doesn't maybe Matt and then Rhonda and then Manuel and David, or we can have Rhonda be the last word, just summarize kind of what we've been doing today. And I don't know if it was any good or not. I have... I went into hypnotic states of helplessness and awfulness when you were describing, you know, being bullied in really adverse circumstances.
And I, you know, I was bullied by this guy named Red in like seventh grade or sixth grade. And he says, why don't you come on over to my house and I'll fight you right now. And, you know, I didn't obviously go over to his house, but it was very humiliating. And I'd like to run into that guy and bust his effing nose even today.
Red, if you're listening to this podcast, I'm ready for you now, big boy. You're not dead already, and I hope you are.
Yikes. I like that. That's fun. I could offer some summarizing.
Well, I just wanted to ask Manuel one thing before. I want to hear your summary, Matt. But Manuel, you said that you were going to tell us the signs for parents and teachers to look out. Like that kid in my neighborhood who was bullied for a school year, and nobody identified it. How can parents or teachers identify if a kid's being bullied?
Yeah, so I mean, oftentimes they're going to have communication. So if we're noticing that there's changes, right? And like I'd mentioned some of them already, which is that all of a sudden they don't want to go to school. Or all of a sudden they're just like... everybody thinks I'm horrible.
You buying me these stupid clothes and we can't afford any better clothes and everybody make fun of my dress, my sneakers. Like, you know, I'm so tired of it. You know, so they might say little things like that, but, but then also, again, there's changes in sleeping, eating, energy, irritability.
So a lot of the things that we might see with depression, but, you know, refusing to go to school before. And now they hate, you know, I'm, I hate sports now, or I hate,
p or i hate this class and all of a sudden there's that shift and they're getting headaches stomach aches other things that might show physical manifestations of like well what's happening here like you seem so happy in love school and what about your good friend circle and it's like they all hate me now and everybody thinks i'm a loser so i mean they may not say that but they'll they'll let some things out so you're trying to look for that any changes
And then being able to openly talk with them about, you know, how are you feeling emotionally. I mean, one of the things I always do is ask people, you know, like, so do you feel like you have friends? And no, I don't have any – which again, we could get into the whole – we could do a whole thing just on cyberbullying and other people avoiding electronics. But – because it's important to see.
They only need one friend. It doesn't have to be like, oh, I've got tons of friends. But trying to find out how they're interacting with other kids. So those are some of the things. And then I'll also tell kids – Look, even if you're not going to tell the teacher, you've already told the teacher, you've already told your parent, nothing's happening. Can you also...
let the teacher know a resource officer counselor say, you know, here's the hallway. This always happens or out on the, you know, the playground or out by this corner.
Could you maybe just kind of stand over by there sometime and listen so you can hear some of that so that you catch them saying the mean horrific things as opposed to I'm the narc who, who told on him and now I'm getting, you know, double the bully. So anyway, that's for the kids. Um,
But, you know, the parents and teachers sometimes trying to make them more aware so that they're inserting themselves around those areas to try to, you know, decrease that or see it for themselves.
Great. Thank you.
Yeah, I love that answer, Manuel, because, I mean, in the very first part of the team model, the T is for testing. How do you get the information that there's something going wrong here that as a parent I would want to be able to help my child with? And if the child is in this contract of abuse, they're not going to want to tell us in a straightforward way.
And so we have to be looking out for those signs that there might be something going on. I had a wonderful friend who was a pediatrician. And one thing he said to me is to get into the habit of talking to your kids about their emotions and what's going on in their life and their friends and their
and talk about things that kids are often kind of afraid to talk about, so that's just sort of a natural repertoire of what happens, and I've tried to do that with my kids.
We didn't talk a lot about the empathy model, but once someone does start to talk about their experience of abuse, I think we want to reward that and tell them how proud we are of them for talking about it, let them know that we're going to... be there for them just to listen, but also to help. And what do they need right now? And then I thought we did a good job.
Today on the methods, and we addressed a little bit of the agenda setting that oftentimes at a motivational level, folks will not want to approve of themselves if they're getting bullied. And Manuel, you pointed out, you can actually decide, no, I'm going to approve of myself even if someone else is rejecting me or bullying me. And I love that point that you made there.
And that was my effort at a summary, and I'll let Wanda go.
I just want to say real quick, I love that part there, which is so important for parents too, is that when I ask a kid how things are going and any troubles there, bullying, I'll be like, wow, that's amazing, because I remember I got people who would make fun of me.
So parents can open it up as well, because if the kid's just like, oh, no, everything's fine, I'll be like, wow, that's great, because I know when I was.
Yeah. I love that to model self-disclosure and opening up and how to talk about those things.
I have two other small contributions. I think kids will always tell you how they're feeling if you ask in a specific way. Like if they understand 0 to 100 or 0 to 10, you could just say you look like you might be feeling a little sad or down or unhappy. How unhappy are you feeling on, say, a 0 to 10 scale? Hmm.
And then if they give you like a 6 or an 8 or a 10, that's, you know, how anxious or scared do you feel on a 0 to 10? Do you feel alone or lonely on a 0 to 10? How ashamed do you feel? How inadequate do you feel or inferior? How hurt? How angry? How... How discouraged do you feel?
Those are simple words, and kids will tell you, you know, on a zero to ten or a zero to five, just say ten is the most and zero is not at all. They'll usually tell you what their feelings are. Well, I guess you would have more knowledge of that than I would, Manuel, because you're working with kids constantly, but that is one thing.
And then another thing that I said that could be misinterpreted by listeners to the show is, When I'm talking about how to change the internal dialogue in the child's head, I'm talking about techniques that a good therapist can use. But the parent's role would be to empathize and provide warmth and support, like the podcast we did on how to help and how not to help.
You've got to have an agenda with someone like what you're saying, Matt, with the child before you can teach them these techniques to love and accept yourself. And if the parents just jump in and try to teach those things to the kid, it will backfire.
Right. Yeah, I experienced some of—I was really grateful to have your training, David, because my son went through a little bit of bullying, not too bad. And I offered him, you know, there are a couple ways I could help. I could— I could just listen and you could talk about it. Or I could help you feel better about it.
I could show you some tools that you could use to kick your negative thoughts out of your head. Or we could practice how to talk to that bully. And what type of help would you like?
Yeah, right. That's nice.
And that was really effective.
What did he say?
He said he wanted help with just talking about it. He just wanted to talk about it with me. He wanted to handle it on his own. He didn't want me to interfere, but he did want some help talking back to some negative thoughts.
Oh, cool. Very nice. I love that.
Well, the only thing I would add that to me...
seemed incredibly important is before you can respond to a bully outside of you that you have to overcome the bullying that you're doing to yourself and and work on you know whatever it is that triggers your self-hatred so that when someone does bully you or say something mean or belittling that's there is no response there is no self-hatred and you can just then laugh or praise or join in with them
It's actually fun once you're not buying into it. Yeah, it can be like a game. You know, Rhonda, could I talk to you for a minute?
Sure.
You know, you're not an important person.
Oh, there's nothing more true than that, especially being amongst you three men.
You're killing it. That's knocking it out of the park.
Thanks. Well, I have a good teacher.
Yeah. It's kind of fun, isn't it?
It is kind of fun.
A relief not to have an ego. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
That's so wonderful. And that's what's so hard to teach kids, too, is that because we're teaching them to form. Kids and adults. Yeah. Well, yeah.
But maybe Manuel could come back because one thing we didn't talk about is cyberbullying. Maybe Manuel, would you be interested in coming back again to talk about cyberbullying one day?
Yeah, and that's where I think parents get involved more. That's a tough one. Can you guys hear me at all?
Now we can, yeah.
No, I can't hear you at all. Oh, no.
You're gaslighting me. But, yeah, the cyberbullying is tough because parents have to kind of be involved because if we're having kids try to manage this on their own, like we as adults don't know how to manage all of the onslaught of information and people who can act anonymously and say the most horrific things they would never say to your face. Most of them, people wouldn't.
But this allows the worst to come out in some people. So, yeah. And we all know about looking at our cell phone texts. Even somebody you really know, depending on the mood you're in, like, what did they mean by that? Well, that was, you know, and then you read it when you're in a better mood. You're like, oh, wow, how did I misinterpret that? I mean, that's just, you know, we do that.
And boy, the kids that are trying to do that with all the emojis and... Yeah. Laws and all of that. So, yeah, it's a difficult thing. But, yes, I would love to talk about it. I don't know if I'd be able to offer more than that.
I want to thank you for coming in, Manuel, on your vacation. I know your fishing is one of the big deals in your life, like what we used to do when we were traveling in Africa when we were about eight and when we caught those enormous 30-pound trout and then we would eat them raw. That was some of my favorite memories. But I know that you're having fun on your vacation.
Your vacation today and your fishing this morning, and it really touches me for you to come in and talk about something you feel so strongly about and you have so much wisdom about and to share it with the three of us and with the six people who are listening. Thank you, six people. I hope this helps. Love you, Manuel.
We love you. Thanks, man. I can't wait for us to go out and get those 600-pound tuna by hypnosis. That's the way.
We found one of those in the fountain right in front of our house.
Wow. You will jump into the boat. You will jump into the boat.
So much easier that way. Well, thank you all. I really appreciate it. Have fun. Anytime. Anytime.
Cool. Thanks. Great spending time with you all. Thanks.
Yeah.
We'll see you.
Bye.
This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions. If you want to support the show, please share the podcast online
people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.