Dr. Manuel Sierra
Appearances
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You know, all the things that kids can pick out and all of a sudden something even that we thought like, hey, I really like this shirt. Now it's like, oh, gosh, this one kid made fun of it. Other people laughed. And this is the dumbest shirt ever. Why did my mom buy it for me? She hates me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Wow. It was easier back then. There wasn't as many protective gates and stuff in the Sonora Desert. But those were their formative years. That's where we learned how to both bully and protect against bullying.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Thanks, Matt. Yeah, so, and then I was thinking to get back to kind of, you know, how do we help kids who are going through this, right? Because we know most of us when we're, well, throughout life, but certainly in middle school and high school, we kind of feel self-conscious. We want to fit in. And it can be kind of devastating when all of a sudden,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Our peers, a friend who we thought was a friend or just, you know, other kids at the school who are maybe more popular or tougher or all the things that could happen. And then we just feel like, oh, my gosh, you know, and we can get kids start having more headaches, wanting to refuse school, grades dropping. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You know, and those are some of the signs for parents, like what's going on here, you know, because like I said earlier, is that sometimes, you know, kids will tell a teacher or a parent, but nothing really happens. That doesn't stop the other kid from doing what they're doing. So, you know, but then also that kids, when it comes to that, so secret, they'll tell all of us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
your secrets embarrass you in front of everybody but you know their own they'll keep these things near and dear which is we got to try to help them not to recognize that that's not shameful right that somebody called you names or made you feel horrible or picked on you because you looked a certain way you know we need to be like that's that's not your shame so that's where we kind of work with the kids there is okay let's look at the things that this person's saying to you
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And this is where I like with David, because it's always about the process. It's not trying to remember some phrases that I'm going to say to them. I mean, that can be helpful in situations. But, you know, a lot of times it's, you know, it's like, OK, you've got this bully who's going to absolutely try to run you down. Right. In terms of the way you look, the way you act, everything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And it's like, how do I not internalize that? So how does that only get me, you know?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
this upset or for anybody listening i'm holding my hands kind of you know three inches four inches apart versus this upset where i'm holding way apart you know and then how do i you know keep that duration for this long and again now i'm holding them close together versus that long meaning yes it's embarrassing could be humiliating it Not great. Other kids were sitting there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That cute girl or boy who I like also laughed because they just said something about, you know, the way I looked or something. And. Now I feel devastated. And I'm going home that night just sitting there curled up in a ball, feeling that pit in my stomach going, oh, I can't believe this person. And everybody in the whole school now thinks I'm a complete idiot or whatever it is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So we're trying to get like, how do we get that? Like, yep, that's embarrassing. Oh, geez. But then I'm not. going home and thinking about it or sitting through the rest of school terrified or embarrassed or humiliated. So those are going to be some of the things that I think we talk about that are great to help kids kind of, how do I address this?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And kind of a process, which you guys know all about the process, which is all these wonderful techniques we use to help make it, to take the teeth out of those kinds of comments and that kind of repeated bullying process.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like I think when we talked about racism, used some examples. But, you know, you guys are obviously do such a great job of looking at automatic thoughts. And I like the way that, you know, we frame them automatic as opposed to their cognitive distortions or, you know, thinking errors and other things.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It's like we all get these automatic thoughts, our ability to kind of catch them, recognize them, challenge them. That's where the work's right. That's where we practice and practice and you get better. And I always tell people, I still get embarrassed. I still get anxious. I still get angry. I still feel all of these things.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Hopefully the difference is, is that it's, you know, kind of for this long, this intensity for that long, instead of, you know, huge intensity for hours or days. And that's by practicing some of the things. And I always tell them too, it's like professional athletes, musicians, they practice all the time. It's not because they're terrible, right?
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
They're the best in the world generally, but they're still practicing. So I, cause sometimes there's that thought that, well, once I just, you know, I won't let it bug me. And I'll be on my way and it'll never bug me again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, I think they do some trainings and there are definitely some models that I think are going to be helpful where you're getting people in there. You're also trying to get the bystanders. You're also trying to get, you know, the bully.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And again, the level of severity, you know, I think that, like I said, I've talked about kind of the middle, which that person would be in the middle until it got that severe. And we don't know about it, but yeah. It is a tough thing because as Matt had kind of put down so much questions, there's like, oh, it builds character. Oh, everybody does that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So then we're trying to gauge, well, where is this? I mean, this is to the point where this person is hounded relentlessly, so afraid to go to school and they're just getting stomachaches and headaches and grades are dropping out. They're feeling thoughts of suicide. You know, it's like, when do we step in?
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I wish we were doing more training with teachers and student bodies on, you know, hey, look, how do we look out for one another? You know, how do we kind of recognize if we see something to help these kids? Because, again, we all know that rarely does it happen where a teacher or a parent addresses the bully and they say, oh, okay, I'll stop.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And usually it's like, oh, I'm going to get you later, sucker. You know it. You told on me. Now you're really in trouble. And that's, I think, a part of that. So working with the teachers is important. You know, I feel horrible these days for teachers because, you know,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
They get all the electronics, all the other things, the IEPs, the 504s, and they're trying to learn how to – I just want to learn how to teach math and help these kids. And then it's like you have to be a counselor. You have to be a bully expert. You have to be a learning disorder expert. Anyway, so yeah, but yeah, there is definitely trainings, and I think it is helpful and we need to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
that so that we have a trusted person in their life and let's tell them like it could be a parent it could be a counselor a teacher but it is important to be able to go talk to somebody because we shouldn't have to just deal with this on our own i mean i still don't know how to deal with it you know in my nice old age let alone how does a 12 year old or a 15 year old 10 year old did did you have any bullying when you were growing up manuel
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, yeah, I had gads of money I took from those kids. No. But it was interesting because, yes, I was bullied for sure. And I remember, you know, it was a lot of, depending on where we lived, it was on my race. We were very poor, so it could be on my clothes. You know, and I was short, so there was that. And I wore glasses, so four eyes. And then, of course, you know, one that I think
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Everybody still we get is sexual orientation. So, you know, I don't know of a boy in junior high and high school that didn't get called a fag or gay. But for some kids, that's pretty simple. I mean, nobody liked it and nobody still likes it, especially when just trying to go through puberty.
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And so and the reason I bring that up, because there's so many kids that, you know, they're like, I got called that. And I think sometimes we don't address some of the horrible, rude things that people say. And, of course, they get better and better at it of saying meaner things. It used to just be your mama jokes, right? Your mama wears combat boots.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And obviously that's evolved to meaner and horrible things that people are going to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
you know or talk about with your mother and so us trying to process that not internalize it helps to get to the point where we're viewing it more objectively like wow there's a person saying some really rude things and gosh what kind of imagination they have that they're thinking of all this horrible stuff uh man i it's a good thing that i'm not going to i know that that you're not doing that to my mom that i'm not this horrible person but boy i could just imagine if i was
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Believing all of that, I'd be really angry. I'd be really sad. I'd be really overwhelmed. So that's, again, how we work on how we kind of move outside of that as opposed to, oh, I'm this horrible person now. Or how do you talk about my mom like that? I'm an idiot.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
you know it's just like wow this person's got an imagination or else boy they just keep saying the same thing over and over again like it's pretty boring to just hear how many terrible things they're going to do to my mom or about what a loser i am you know they don't have much of imagination or they have a great imagination so those are you know and that's i think some of the talking back to ourselves things um and which again we're gonna get to so i don't know how much time do we have
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
What if everybody were to think that I'm this? Or what if everybody's laughing because they called me a spic and a beaner? You know, those different things are like, oh, you know, that feels so personal and so hateful and so shameful. Even if it's not something to be ashamed of, it's still... You have to wonder. So, yeah, there's a lot of those negative thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Sure. Well, what I would also just say real quickly is that – so bullying obviously is extremely serious. They talk about one out of four to up to 50 percent of people experience bullying of some kind. And then there's extremely severe where we have to really – always I think we need to step in and we'll go through techniques and everything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But real quick, as you're going to do this, which I love, is I like to just still explain to the kids what I mean by those automatic thoughts and challenging them. So I use that example. I think I used it last time too. But I just think it's an easy one for people to understand that most people experience.
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Like if you're walking down the hallway, you see your friend, you wave at them, they're looking right at you. And they turn away and don't wave back. So our automatic thoughts then be, you know, what happened? What did I do? Oh, my gosh. You know, who did they talk to? Did I talk about them? Or it could be, you know, some people like, oh, they slighted me. Well, screw them, then.
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'll never talk to them again. And the next time they say hi to me, I'll just be like, go to hell, you know. Or it could be like, oh, man. Not even that person likes me. I'm not that person's my friend. I don't – everybody hates me. I'm just a loser. Nobody likes me. So that's – but it's just real simple as opposed to also where somebody then – challenge that automatic thought, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You go up to them like, hey, hello, Earth to Matt. What? Oh, I'm in my own little world, man. I'm doing – I just see in shapes. I'm walking down the hall thinking about trying not to look stupid walking into class or if I got my homework.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And so in one case, we checked the automatic thought, and we've only got very small intensity for very small duration because we checked that as opposed to we could have gone into class the whole time going – I didn't pay attention because I'm just thinking, what did I do to make this person angry? They don't like me anymore. They won't even wave at me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I just keep feeding into that and feeding into that to the point, like I said, where it could have negative longer-term impacts, especially if I'm like, well, the next time I see them, I'll just be like, ugh. So anyway, that's when you talk about recognizing those automatic thoughts and challenging them. That's just a very simple one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I tell people, as we know, that people put each other into boxes, right? All the time. We tend to do it. We don't try to. But if this person loved me, they wouldn't do this. You know, they did that. Oh, so obviously they don't love me. So we create that world for ourselves. It's very black and white. Right. And then it's like, holy smokes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Anyway, those are the things that you guys are the experts on. That's why I love hearing you guys do the, you know, feared fantasy and talking back to your voice, because that's an important part.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
of what, you know, I work with the kids on as well as, you know, trying to give them some examples of how do we process this, uh, and get better and better at practicing and practicing as opposed to just, you know, coming up with that line, but like, okay, well, you're, you're smarter than me. You're faster than me. You could hurt me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'm not sure what you want me to do, which can be effective way to address a bully, but I like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I also say sometimes they're going to be quick-witted, right? You could be like trying to get into an argument with them. It can just still make you look dumb. You're sitting there at 3 at night. Oh, I should have said this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But the process again is that – and one of the – I just thought of this this morning is like kind of that David Letterman technique you used to – which is like – And you don't have to do it to the bully. This can be going on in your mind. That's what I tell them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You don't necessarily need to get in that conversation, but you could be like, I wonder, wow, this is pretty interesting that this person would come up, choose me, pick on me for something I'm insecure about. I wonder what it is in their life that makes them dislike me. I wonder what it is that makes them so angry to see me or to want to just degrade me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So it's still kind of a way of pulling out where it's, I'm not just internalizing it. I'm a terrible person who has a big zit on their nose, who has funny clothes or smells funny or all the things that we might be like, oh, my gosh, what's going on? Do I have a booger? Why is everybody looking at me now and laughing?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But there's higher suicide risks for kids who are being severely bullied. There's physical aggression. We're going to talk about when to go to an adult. Well, you should always go to an adult. We're going to talk about how parents can also try to get – You know, their kids find out if they're being bullied, some of the warning signs and trying to get them professional help.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So taking an approach where we're like, oh, how can I think about this in a different way? So I'm taking it outside of just not I'm a terrible person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
and I want to brush up on this a little bit, but, you know, somebody calls me a fake, a meaner, a fag, a horrible name, or a smelly, whatever, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And if I'm sitting there thinking about, okay, so this is the way this person is characterizing me, is saying these things, and they're trying to make me feel bad, they're trying to hurt me, they're trying to embarrass me, and I can also get to the point where we're like, well, why do I have to take that, right? I...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I'm not going to have a bad day or feel horrible because this person is purposely going out of their way to be a jerk, to be mean, to make me feel that way. So if I kind of get outside of my head on that and get better and better at that, it's like, wait, okay, wait. Wow, this guy's got some really colorful, horrible language.
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
They're saying some mean things about me or they started this rumor that, you know. I got pregnant by a donkey. I had all the horrible things that someone says, like, and I'm going to, like, that hurts. That's embarrassing. That's, whoa, I hope people don't believe that. But why am I going to right now just be like, wow, I'm going to buy into this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
and just have a horrible, horrific day and think worse of myself when this person's purposely trying to do that. Like, I don't want to give them that kind of pleasure, power over me. It's like, how do I kind of just be, wow, this person, I need to look at this as like a science specimen that's just saying these things.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And, you know, we've got to work in the systems with the teachers, the schools. And, you know, we can go from the inner self, the family. The neighborhoods, the school systems. But anyway, we just want to make sure we know that people are being severely bullied. We really do need to step in and can make a difference.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And I just interpret all I'm hearing as I feel horrible about myself or I'm just trying to be mean and make you mad. And as opposed to getting caught up in all of the words they're saying, all of the meanings, right? It's like, wait, how do I kind of remove myself and challenge those things as opposed to right now? How do I react? Because that's the problem, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Is that somebody comes up to me and says something really mean or horrible. It's like, well, especially when you're self-conscious, is that I feel like I have to react immediately. And we're trying to work on how to not react, right, and then how to maybe say something or not say something and be like, okay, wow, that's amazing. That was really good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That boy, that one, he put some stank on that one. I don't even know how to think about that. That was so disgusting or mean or hateful. But, you know, I don't have to sit there and be a part of that. If I get caught up in the everybody's laughing at me, Then I'm just embarrassed and feeling like a fool, and everybody must think that. So anyway, yeah, I love watching you guys doing your...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that can be – we're trying to teach them to have that internal dialogue because while they're doing that and thinking about it, whether they're responding or not, that's less time that they're sitting there taking in that I must be terrible, horrible, defective person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Why else would somebody say that and why else would people stand around and laugh or not do anything about it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So this person is purposely trying to make me feel bad. embarrass me, shame me, hurt me, make me have a terrible day. Like, why would I want, like, they can keep talking, saying all the things they're saying. It's just like, you know, how do I get to that point where I'm not taking that in, absorbing it, and feeling like it must be true?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
What I think we'll talk a lot about, too, is, you know, what about the average kind of person, you know, when you're getting made fun of? People are picking on you for the way you look, for dressing differently. A lot of times they're pretty darn good at picking out our insecurities and just riding on those until we feel more guilt, embarrassment, shame. So anyway—
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Right. And trust me, I've done a much better job of beating up on myself than this person has. I mean, they came up with some things I hadn't thought of yet.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Not only are you stronger, superior, you're smarter. I mean, man, you are dang.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And all the special attention. I mean, wow, you went out of your way. You've been thinking about me a lot to come up with that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We're going to have to work on the delivery, but I like it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Who are we talking to then? So you guys are the ones who get the more time to actually do this. Oh, no, you do. I get the 30 minutes of psychopharmacology and therapy. So I'm working and we're helping, you know, kind of keep working on the concepts and reminding and having them work with their counselor more on the automatic thoughts because we have more time to actually do that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So that's what I'm loving to hear. Go for it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We've got to make sure that people know there's resources available, going to teachers, parents, kind of what to look for. There's the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, ACAP, has a website that people can find resources on about bullying. There's also Mass General Hospital, MGH Clay Center, C-L-A-Y, so MGH Clay Center.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, and you're tall, and everybody notices it, so you're gangly. You have a big red zit on your nose.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You look, yeah. Might as well name that thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, so let's also mix that up a little in terms of we're in middle school, right? And so you can tell me you're okay, you big, tall, fat loser with the zit on your face. You can tell me you're okay with feeling that way, but we all know. Everybody here thinks you're a loser.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Oh, I fear I don't know what I externalized. Are you my thoughts? Yes, yes, I was kind of going along the same thing. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Because, well, it's kind of like, I mean, David obviously pointed out that I was now playing the bully in that, but, you know, it is kind of still going along some of those negative thoughts that are your own.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And that's a very mature thing. Which is where we're trying to get them to. What we're doing right now, though, is kind of thinking about how a middle schooler or high schooler who's – take yourself back to that insecure – which we want to show them the positive because that is where we want to get to. I just think initially they're going to be like, I don't believe that one bit.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
They also have a lot of kind of cool things for people to go on there, look up different topics like bullying, phones, everything. So anyway, and then, you know, that's a resource there. But Matt actually looked up a lot of stuff on bullying last night. I have my definitions, but I imagine they're fairly similar to what you've been reading.
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Not everybody does think that, right? I mean I'm convinced that everybody actually thinks I'm not a good person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I just want to bully this guy, man.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Well, I'm just like, like I said, is that you're, when we're trying to work with adolescents, um, And preteens is that that's not generally the way they're going to think. Like we model that for them because that's good. Right. I mean, that's as an adult, that's a big win. Right. Is it? Wait a minute. I'm actually starting to see that. Wait, not every.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I'm much better beaten up on the negative because I'm trying to channel the adolescent. But, you know, when I work with them, it's like, well, let's examine that, just like you were doing. Well, let's examine that. So everybody in the school hates you, right? Hates me, speaking the first person on. Hates me, sorry, hates me. And then it's like, well... It's not necessarily true.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
There's, you know, there's that one person who doesn't spit on me when they walk by me. The teacher seems to tolerate me a little, I guess, sometimes. The principal, you know, there's that one kid who I was nice to once and, you know, they're nice to me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So, I mean, I would try to get them, but this is like you guys know, we'd have to get what their thoughts are because it's hard for me to use that. I'm just trying to think of it. How do we make it for the adolescent who does feel awfully awkward and like they don't fit in and wondering if their hands are in the right position or are they standing too straight? Are they on top?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
The extremely self-conscious and where when somebody points something out, like even just something stupid like, oh, look at that. You got a hair hanging down like a curl. Who are you trying to be? Jerry Curl or Jerry Lewis? Little things like that that kind of come out. So that's what I was just saying is that I love that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
we're doing and that's where we want to get them to I'm just trying to think of how we might respond to those things so like instead of taking the where am I at in the middle school can we do one and you be the adolescent girl and I'm the bully and how would you respond sure let's okay and then we're going into feared fantasy not externalization of voices right Rhonda either
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's true. Danny's always with those really pretty girls who are popular. So, see, right there I'm already like, boy, I'm getting whooped.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So, I mean, I guess how would I talk about it? Yeah, he might date really pretty girls, and I might not be as pretty as some of those, but they're probably not very nice, or at least I know I am nice, and I'm a good person, and I know how to be a good friend and listen.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I think... You, just in my mind, because I still haven't, I don't think that I believe it yet as a teenage girl who clearly is not have been invited.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But Rhonda, you're an ugly girl. This guy you like is never going to date you. You're just not worth it. Everybody knows that you're ugly and gawky and not prom worthy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, I like that. What did you like about it? Well, I like that you said, hey, we sit next to each other. I mean, so you had some inside information there or some other things. But it's like, hey, we're still friends. Not so ugly that he won't talk to me. We're actually still having fun. So it doesn't matter, right, if he's going to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's such an important thing too, is that that's the dealing with that internal bully and people always want to know how to deal. with the actual bully, but I think it's not, well, the work's not necessarily because again, you can still get punched in the nose. You could still get bullied more.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, especially these days too where there's – People can do the cyberbullying where they think they have anonymity, and oftentimes they might. People generally know who the person is who's bullying them, or at least suspect who it is. But what's the worst is when kids are making videos, which seems... Like they do so much.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
They could still, you know, cause sometimes they're about getting a laugh and being quick witted and just keep saying stupid things over and over again, which can be really hard to necessarily come out of that a winner, but it's more important of how I'm doing that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
beating the internal bully and I don't have to react it's like I am actually really I want to cry right now because you said some really mean things and I don't know what to say honestly that was you know you got me so I mean if they're trying to actually say something they could do that out loud or internally but they recognizing that yeah I don't have to come up with something that was that hurt yeah
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
In this case, though, is that we want to make it—is that she actually does want to date Danny. She has these hopes that, you know, maybe he could see himself with a girl like her.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And unfortunately, they're getting more sexual and those kinds of things obviously can lead to kids dropping out of school. They get shared. It's just it's horrific. And so there's a lot of trying to teach people how to be safe. But, yeah, bullying is when you have, you know, there's all kinds of different variations, definitions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Of course I would listen to them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's what we're trying to get them to. But I just didn't think that in this moment where you could hear the collective teenage girls eyes roll. You know, because they don't feel that way. Just teenage boys either. I do feel like I might be. And you are so gorgeous.
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And no boys will ever like me because I've got braces, skinny, and these other girls are already starting to, you know, have breasts. And I don't. And I have zits on my face. And only my mom thinks I'm pretty or cute. But nobody else does.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But generally, it's when you have somebody with some power differential who is vulnerable. purposely and malignantly kind of targeting somebody else. And so it's not always necessarily there's power differential, you know, be bigger, stronger, uh, smarter, faster, you know, kind of like some of my bullies were. And then, so they're kind of, again, going and repeatedly, uh,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, and I think part of it, too, is why I struggle is because we're all trying to make up. I mean, I think Rhonda really nailed it with that first part of like that was very middle school. Wow. Yeah. I'm sitting at this desk and this person's next to me and saying, you're not going to you can't date him. He's out of your league. It's like, oh, wow. We're getting into that frame of mind.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But we don't have the actual negative thoughts from our relationship. you know, patient. And then it is harder to be like, well, wait, I'm taking this thought, this thought. Whereas with our patients, we are going to go through that time to get what they're thinking and not just kind of a conglomeration of a teenager.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So that's probably, I mean, that's where I think I feel like I'm failing and struggling with this because it's like trying to put that with a certain patient or in general.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Okay, so how old are you, David?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, I'm no good at listening to the elderly be bullied because I'm always just hearing the kids.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
kind of harassing and trying to make somebody's life miserable, either physically, like I said, and that's one that always, always, always needs to be reported to teachers and parents. You know, the other part where this gets into is that You know, a lot of times it's like people do tell. Well, actually, more times they don't because of the embarrassment and shame.
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417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, and if they say, David, you look like your grandma shaved her Sharpay and then put glue on you and made you roll around in it. Like, oh, man, what are you doing coming to school looking like that? You kind of actually smell like that Sharpay, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Nice. Yeah. No, I love it. That's what we've got to do is get the kids to that point where they're filled up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, that's the way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You can be a smart athlete, but it's still going to kick your ass when I see you after school.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, okay, so nothing, we'll do below the chin then. We'll just get midsection.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But a lot of times kids will say, okay, I'm being bullied. And then, you know, mom or dad calls a school or tells a teacher, the teacher says, hey, you stop that. And guess what? That almost never works. So when we're trying to use some of the things we're talking about today, again, we're trying to just talk about the –
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Well, how about I'm going to tell everybody that you're a dirty slut and slept with Jimmy and you'll sleep with everybody.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
A dirty little slut who slept with Jimmy and is going to sleep with everybody and we know that that's all you do. You whore.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, in this case, again, I'm trying to think about how, you know, getting them to that point, because right there could be feeling horrifying. You're telling me that, oh, my gosh, everybody in the school is going to think I'm a slut. Everybody's going to think that's all I want to do is get blowjobs and that I'll give it up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And in fact, there's already been a couple of rumors that I slept with this guy and that guy. And I'm horribly embarrassed now and people are shaming me on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and talking about what a slut I am. Oh, my gosh. What do I do? So.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
To ruin you, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
the middle group who might get bullied, and how do we kind of help them think differently? Because that's where a lot of it's going to work. I mean, we need to do the work and the systems and everything to try to prevent it to getting to that level where kids are seriously contemplating suicide and leading to depression. But, you know, if we get kids...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Get a date with Daniel.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, so I mean, oftentimes they're going to have communication. So if we're noticing that there's changes, right? And like I'd mentioned some of them already, which is that all of a sudden they don't want to go to school. Or all of a sudden they're just like... everybody thinks I'm horrible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You buying me these stupid clothes and we can't afford any better clothes and everybody make fun of my dress, my sneakers. Like, you know, I'm so tired of it. You know, so they might say little things like that, but, but then also, again, there's changes in sleeping, eating, energy, irritability.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So a lot of the things that we might see with depression, but, you know, refusing to go to school before. And now they hate, you know, I'm, I hate sports now, or I hate,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
p or i hate this class and all of a sudden there's that shift and they're getting headaches stomach aches other things that might show physical manifestations of like well what's happening here like you seem so happy in love school and what about your good friend circle and it's like they all hate me now and everybody thinks i'm a loser so i mean they may not say that but they'll they'll let some things out so you're trying to look for that any changes
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And then being able to openly talk with them about, you know, how are you feeling emotionally. I mean, one of the things I always do is ask people, you know, like, so do you feel like you have friends? And no, I don't have any – which again, we could get into the whole – we could do a whole thing just on cyberbullying and other people avoiding electronics. But – because it's important to see.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
They only need one friend. It doesn't have to be like, oh, I've got tons of friends. But trying to find out how they're interacting with other kids. So those are some of the things. And then I'll also tell kids – Look, even if you're not going to tell the teacher, you've already told the teacher, you've already told your parent, nothing's happening. Can you also...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
thinking in the team way and cognitive behavioral therapy, then less likely to internalize those humiliating moments and maybe not feel so afraid to just walk down the hallway or want to skip school because these kids are going to be waiting for them and harassing them and bullying them. So I'll let Matt go first.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
let the teacher know a resource officer counselor say, you know, here's the hallway. This always happens or out on the, you know, the playground or out by this corner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Could you maybe just kind of stand over by there sometime and listen so you can hear some of that so that you catch them saying the mean horrific things as opposed to I'm the narc who, who told on him and now I'm getting, you know, double the bully. So anyway, that's for the kids. Um,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But, you know, the parents and teachers sometimes trying to make them more aware so that they're inserting themselves around those areas to try to, you know, decrease that or see it for themselves.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I just want to say real quick, I love that part there, which is so important for parents too, is that when I ask a kid how things are going and any troubles there, bullying, I'll be like, wow, that's amazing, because I remember I got people who would make fun of me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So parents can open it up as well, because if the kid's just like, oh, no, everything's fine, I'll be like, wow, that's great, because I know when I was.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
That's so wonderful. And that's what's so hard to teach kids, too, is that because we're teaching them to form. Kids and adults. Yeah. Well, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah, and that's where I think parents get involved more. That's a tough one. Can you guys hear me at all?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
You're gaslighting me. But, yeah, the cyberbullying is tough because parents have to kind of be involved because if we're having kids try to manage this on their own, like we as adults don't know how to manage all of the onslaught of information and people who can act anonymously and say the most horrific things they would never say to your face. Most of them, people wouldn't.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But this allows the worst to come out in some people. So, yeah. And we all know about looking at our cell phone texts. Even somebody you really know, depending on the mood you're in, like, what did they mean by that? Well, that was, you know, and then you read it when you're in a better mood. You're like, oh, wow, how did I misinterpret that? I mean, that's just, you know, we do that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
And boy, the kids that are trying to do that with all the emojis and... Yeah. Laws and all of that. So, yeah, it's a difficult thing. But, yes, I would love to talk about it. I don't know if I'd be able to offer more than that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
We love you. Thanks, man. I can't wait for us to go out and get those 600-pound tuna by hypnosis. That's the way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So much easier that way. Well, thank you all. I really appreciate it. Have fun. Anytime. Anytime.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Bye.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I think – yeah, I mean I agree. There's a lot of good in most people and we all have – can be an ugly side and I think bullying also comes into that category. wanting to fit in and not be different.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So, you know, if they talk about bullying, you've got the bully, you've got the victim, uh, for looking at kind of more of that psychodynamic or dynamic ways, but you also have the bystanders, the people who are observing and all of these things can have an influence, but yeah, what's happening at home to this bully, you know, we were, I know Matt, we're going to talk about that, you know, cause it's like, do I,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Because there's always like, well, just think how bad they have it. If you're being bullied, you're like, I don't care how bad they have it. I don't want them to go home and get their butt whooped and I want them to get shamed some more. I hope that happens so that they know how I feel. But you get those kids and it's like, where do they pick that up?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But in a broader sense, to get back to my original point, is that a lot of us can all of a sudden find ourselves, right? You have a friend, your childhood friend. Now we introduce a third friend who's maybe there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
cooler and then your two friends start hanging out together more and all of a sudden you're the butt of the jokes or all of a sudden the other person we're making fun of them there is something that's like oh it feels good to be on top and as opposed to you know just truly being a sadistic psychopath or something that is just totally getting off on causing the shame and humiliation to somebody else there's i think a lot of kids kind of
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
can experience going into that once they get a little taste of power. Um, and then you get also trying to control a situation where you get, uh, you know, middle school seems to be a big place where it starts. People start noticing differences. We get, start getting into hormones, start getting into shame, guilt more. Whereas, you know, grade school, typically we're just like, yay, it's fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Recess time. I get milk and cookies. Um, And then all of a sudden it's like, hey, this kid's different. And then girls are really good at doing the psychological. Like they're more mature and smarter than us at that age. And they take it to a whole new level sometimes. And, you know, whereas boys might just be more like, oh, look at you. You're weak. You stink.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
you're fat, you're skinny, you're tall, you're short. And anyway, so getting ahead of myself here, but yeah, I do think that, you know, we got to also work on how do we address the bullies. And I sometimes think if we look at them as sadistic, you know, Machiavellian psychopaths, you know, Matt talk about the triad, but, um, Anyway, that's Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
It can, you know, that poop rolls downhill, so you're good. Get some of the – get brought up in a – you know, the bully mom or dad or takes out on the kids. It certainly is that aspect. That's where we start saying, well, what's going on in the home?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
But again, we get a lot of these kids that – you know, so there's the – certainly those are the severe ones that have these kind of issues who actually get off on that. And then there's the ones who, yeah, what kind of life are they having at home or, you know, their parent, older sibling – Uncle, aunt, somebody they maybe look up to who treats them that way or kids in the neighborhood.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
So, yeah, and you get the bullies who are bullied who can often be dangerous as well because they're not only on this end of it when they're on this end of it. And we really have to look out for kids like that and what's developing through learned and internalizing. But this is where I think David actually is going to be talking a lot about
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
in this because what I love about David is like how freeing it is to with some of the techniques and the way we look at it and kind of putting the ego aside because I think that's where we all kind of get tripped up in this insecure and poor self-esteem and oh I want to do anything I can avoid to draw attention to myself and people are going to make fun of my zit on my nose or make fun of my shirt or