Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Mon, 09 Sep 2024
Ask David Disturbing Intrusive Thoughts-- where do they come from? Alone and Liking It--is that Okay? Help with those darned Shoulds, and more! The following show notes were written before the show. The actual live discussions will vary somewhat from the answers you will find here, which simply included David's email exchanges with those who asked the questions. . Rodolfo asks about disturbing and unwelcome intrusive thoughts. Brittany asks if it’s okay to enjoy / prefer being alone. John, from Ireland, asks, “Help! I’m shoulding on myself again! What can I do? Please do another podcast on Should Statements.” Rodolfo asks about disturbing and unwelcome intrusive thoughts. 1. Rodolfo asks about ADHD & Intrusive Thoughts Hello Dr. Burns, my name is Rudy. First and foremost, your writings and podcasts have been life changing for me. You’re AMAZING! I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and I started experiencing intrusive thoughts around November of last year. I thought I had OCD, but apparently intrusive thoughts are a common companion in ADHD. What would be the best course of action in defeating them? How would I apply TEAM to them? David’s Response In all my books, like Feeling Great, I outline a step by step approach to writing down and challenging thoughts. You can also listen to the podcast on the four models for treating anxiety. Can we use your great comment on a podcast, and add your question to our next Ask David podcast? Can you send me an example of the types of intrusive thoughts you’re having? Sometimes writing them down and challenging can be helpful, but need to see what we’re talking about. Best, david Rodolfo responds Thank you for the swift response! Ok, so writing down my intrusive thoughts, regardless of their nature, and challenging them. I don’t, however, know which method/route to challenge them with. I have Feeling Great, so I will read through it again. I will also check out the podcasts. My intrusive thoughts have been disgusting violent acts involving my wife and son. ***I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OR DESIRE TO COMMIT ANY OF THEM***. I’ve had images of my wife getting shot, not necessarily by me. Sometimes I’ll see my arms give out and my son will fall. I’ve seen my wife sitting down, and she gets hit in the back of the head. When they appear, I begin to freak out immensely because they are the complete opposite of who I am and what I want to do, which is protect them. I know I’m not doing something right when it comes to your methods because I still freak out. David Responds Thanks! Although disturbing, this is a very common and often easily treatable OCD type of problem. Best, david Rodolfo responds What a relief. I thought I was going insane here! I would be honored if you all covered it in a podcast. All I listen to in my car now is the Feeling Good podcast! David Responds Often, intrusive OCD thoughts reflect suppressed problems / feelings people have, especially when the person is exceptionally "nice," and used to sweeping feelings under the rug, so to speak. I cannot treat you in this medium, obviously, but I'm wondering if you have some negative feelings, like anger or frustration, toward your wife and child? When these are "squashed," they can come out indirectly, disguised as anxious thoughts and feelings. This is called the Hidden Emotion Technique, which you can look up using the search on my website, if curious, or read about it in my book, When Panic Attacks. Best, david 2. Brittany asks if it’s okay to enjoy / prefer being alone. Hi Dr. Burns, I was listening to your podcast on self-acceptance, and it was really interesting hearing the results. I like how you said that just because we accept something about ourselves doesn’t mean we aren’t still working on it. I think people confuse that a lot. One thing I’ve accepted about myself is that I really do enjoy being alone. I think in the past I would try to find a buddy in uncomfortable situations like the first day of work or orientation or going to a baby shower alone etc. but now I find that I am most comfortable when I’m not included with everyone else. However, I think it can come across as off putting to some. Sometimes I get the feeling they see me excluding myself as rejection to them. That’s not my intention and nobody’s ever actually said that but it’s a thought that pops up. Just wondered if you think this form of acceptance is good or bad? I mean it’s been good for me. Just maybe it’s bad for others? -Brittany David’s response This is a cool question and nice comment, too, about our podcast. Can we read this on a podcast and use it for an Ask David? Personally, I am trying to say "no" more often when asked to do things with other people, and sometimes it's hard. But if I don't say no, I get way too much on my plate and can't keep up! Warmly, david Brittany’s reply That makes perfect sense to me. I’ve kind of taken the position where I don’t really want to make more friends because I feel like I’m already falling short with spending enough time with my cats and everyone else. Let alone time for myself. David’s reply Exactly! Our culture has this myth that's it's somehow impossible or immoral to enjoy just being with oneself! David 3. John, from Ireland, asks, “Help! I’m shoulding on myself again! What can I do? Please do another podcast on Should Statements.” Hi David and Rhonda! Love the podcast and the work you folks are doing! I listen to the podcasts regularly and you are both bringing such great benefits to the world! I would love to hear another podcast on should statements. I've been going through a pretty bad and extended period of anxiety and depression in recent months and have been really trying to challenge my thoughts without much success. I'm addicted to shoulds unfortunately and beat up on myself relentlessly. I've tried to do a cost benefit analysis and the motivation piece is a huge part of the benefits side that is keeping me stuck. I really want to give up my should statements, they are making my life a misery. But I'm finding I don't want to let go of the motivation piece. I have given a sample below. I'd love to know if there were further steps/techniques I could use aside from the CBA to address the benefits and the perceived motivation piece so I can fully let go of the shoulds! Thanks so much both, John from Ireland Negative Thought: “I should have plans on a Saturday.” 99% SHLD, ER, SB, MF, DP. Benefits Lets me know when I’m not performing to the standard I set for myself Shows me my passion/goal in life for doing fun exciting things Motivates me to move to make plans, scolds me until I do so. Keeps me vigilant that I’m aware of my shortcomings Reminds me of the value of being socially connected, meeting and having fun with friends. It’s easy, it’s familiar, it’s such a habit. (process resistance) Costs Emotional Cost. Beats me up relentlessly, makes me feel depressed, anxious and lowers my self-esteem. Reinforces perfectionistic beliefs Counterproductive in terms of motivation, makes me feel so low, Huge interpersonal cost, feel isolated alone. Prevents intimate connections Not able to be present or flow in a conversation, quality of conversation/connection drops Self-fulfilling prophecy, if I’m telling myself that then I ignore other possibilities. Benefits 40 / Costs 60 David’s reply Feeling Great is now available in the app store, and you can try it for free. It also has a class called “Your PhD in Shoulds.” I’ll add your question to our next podcast list for an Ask David. Since you’ve told me you can’t yet get the app in Ireland, I’ll send you the script of that lesson. Thanks! David John continues the exchange Hi David, Thank you so much for taking the time to correspond today and thank you so much for all the work you're doing for free. The world would be a better place with more Rhonda's and Dr. Burns' in the world. One of the things that has brought me some peace in the last few weeks is going for a long walk in the evening after work listening to your podcasts! I have attached a DML that I've been working on to give a bit more context. I made some inroads on that original should statement, however, as you can see from the DML more shoulds keep popping up. I have identified the Self Defeating Beliefs that resonate with me at the bottom of the document. I'm working hard to find healthy acceptance, I know this is key for me. I'm not entirely sure a lot of the time what exactly I should be accepting. That I'm a flawed person with many defects, just like everyone else maybe? To give some further context and without overburdening you with too much detail: I feel my anxieties are one of the main parts of my problem and I would love to get over these. I feel defective that I'm not resilient enough for the challenges of life. I have fears mainly around people, fear of letting people down, fear of being judged or rejected and just feeling different to others I suppose. I've struggled with recurring anxiety and some depressive periods from when I was a young child (likely biological - my dad has the same issue). I have strong feelings of defectiveness and not being up to standard compared to my peers. I have a very busy corporate finance job where I've been working very long hours over an extended number of weeks and months. I don’t' love my job, fell into it really. Could be a hidden emotion thing going on. I started working from home more and more in recent months as my workload increased and my anxiety and mood really started to dip as work took over my life. I started to get really burned out in April. A lot of why I enjoyed the job previously was having fun with my teammates but that has become impossible in recent times due to everyone's workload. I do CrossFit which is probably an extreme form of exercise and between that and work I fell into some kind of perfectionism where I couldn't really find joy out of anything, aiming for higher and higher achievements. This brought on tons of shoulds and all or nothing thinking and self-blame, I think. My dad, who had been doing well for a good few years fell into a deep depression and anxious state around April time too and has been in hospital for a number of weeks and our family is trying to support him through this. We're finding the standard of mental health care in Ireland really really poor unfortunately. I find his issues quite triggering for me a lot of the time and I'll believe I'm defective because he is defective and there is nothing I can do about it. Dad is entirely dependent on medication to get him out of his slump and has a bad case of do-nothingism. He is beating himself up relentlessly too and I gave him a copy of Feeling Good to read but he hasn't looked at it at all. I have just turned 40 and I’m still single, so I feel like I'm letting my family down for not being emotionally able for a relationship or kids or be a better brother/son. I know I'm probably being harsh here as they say the opposite, but I feel I could/should be doing more. I have probably fired way too much detail at you, so I'll stop there! Thanks so much again! John Listen to this podcast for the great discussions and commentary by Rhonda, Matt, and David
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Borowski, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Hello, Rhonda.
Hi, David. And hi, Matt May, who's here again with us, gratefully. I want to welcome everyone to episode 413 of the Feeling Good podcast. Hey, Rhonda. Hey, David.
Great to be here. Hi, Matt. Good to see you. It's always great hanging out with you, too. Some of my favorite times in life are being with you, too. Me, too. It's a pleasure.
So I thought I would start our Ask David today with an endorsement from Brittany, who I believe is one of our questioners. And she wrote, Hi, Dr. Burns. I was listening to your podcast on self-acceptance, and it was really interesting hearing the results. I like how you said, just because we accept something about ourselves doesn't mean we still aren't working on it.
I think people confuse that a lot. I'll read her question later because it's our second question. That was a very nice endorsement on her part.
Yeah, and that is a common confusion. People have a lot of reasons not to accept themselves, and there's a kind of healthy acceptance and unhealthy acceptance, and most people can't distinguish them, so they think that acceptance means you get stuck in your crummy self, but actually acceptance is... the greatest change a human being can make.
When you accept yourself, you have made an awesome change. And I discovered someone who said that long before I did. You want to know who it was? The Buddha? Not that early. It was from the 20th century. Carl Rogers. I think he wrote on becoming a person. And he was all about listening and empathy and accepting.
But one of the fellows on our app team found all of these quotes he had on how acceptance is the same as change. And it really surprised me. I think I might have read. read about him when I was in college. We had a class on third-force psychology, the so-called new psychology at the time, that was going to focus on peak experiences, not what was neurotic about people.
But he was very much into acceptance, and I'd always associated his name with empathy, you know, Rogerian listening, right? That's the guy. But apparently he was heavily into acceptance as well, which I was excited to see that.
How would you describe the difference between healthy and unhealthy acceptance?
Well, it's very dramatic, and we have a class on that that we're about to publish in the Feeling Great app, and that's one of the lessons in that class on acceptance. But unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by joy, and then unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by despair. Healthy acceptance is accompanied by laughter and lightness. Unhealthy acceptance is accompanied by cynicism and anger.
Uh, that's, it's just, they're, they're, they're, they're just the opposite from each other. And there's a lot of distinctions between them, but, but essentially you see, um, to take the thought, uh, uh, I've, I've decided to accept my shitty self, my below average self, uh, And I've decided to accept the fact that I really am defective and there's nothing about me that doesn't need improvement.
And are those thoughts a reason for suicide or a reason for celebration? That's the issue. And when you get acceptance, it's not like a death warrant. It's like a celebration of birth. You wake up in a whole new universe. You've changed and the whole world around you has changed.
But in unhealthy acceptance, you think it means giving up, never being able to find meaning or specialness or joy in living. And it's something you have to experience to understand. It's like seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time. And when you see the Grand Canyon, it takes your breath away. And you might have seen it on TV. You might have seen postcards of it.
But you have no idea what it's like until you see it. I remember the first time I saw it, it just took my breath away. I said, I heard there was a hole in the ground, but I had no idea this is what they were talking about. It's majestic beyond belief, really. And that's what the first, the moment you get acceptance, it's that kind of experience.
It sounds like unhealthy acceptance includes like resignation and like paralysis.
Yeah.
Like you can't move forward and healthy acceptance is like a joyful dance of acceptance.
Yeah. I'm dancing.
All right. Well, thank you for that.
And by the way, I'm recording from our new recording studio in old Palo Alto. And I've got three cameras on me and all kinds of lights and stuff. It's pretty cool. This is our fourth time recording. We're recording stuff for the app and stories to publish on YouTube. And we've been having a lot of fun with it. Jeremy, Matt, was with us on all four of our recording sessions.
And we're both really, really excited about it. We're trying to get all the David stories recorded. And we've already recorded 20 stories.
I'm so happy that that project is occurring right now. I'm also delighted to be a part of it.
Yeah, yeah.
I have one comment. I love that Rhonda is taking some notes, but I can also hear the note taking a little bit.
Okay, thanks for letting me know.
Yeah. That's okay. I wonder, I would love, David, just to hear a brief summary of what you were describing. What is the difference between healthy and unhealthy acceptance? How do I know if I'm accepting myself in a way that's appropriate versus inappropriate?
Do you feel joy or do you feel despair? Do you feel laughter or do you feel cynicism? Do you feel close to others, or do you feel alone on an island? Are you comfortable being vulnerable and open, or are you hiding your feelings behind a false front? It's questions like that. Unhealthy acceptance is the same as severe depression, and healthy acceptance is like healthy joy and liberation.
They're actually the opposite feelings. I have a table in the class on acceptance in the app, and there's about seven or eight contrasts. You know, in unhealthy acceptance, you feel ashamed. You feel defective. And in healthy acceptance, you feel whole. You feel joy. You feel excitement about life.
And these words won't allow you to understand what healthy acceptance is, but they're just words that will let you know when you're there and when you're not. But most people, when they think of acceptance of yourself or others or the world, they think about the unhealthy version, so they're afraid of it.
And they pull back from it and keep beating up on themselves and others, hoping that some good will come from it. And that's... That's one of the biggest traps human beings fall into.
And it's kind of what we're trying to turn around with our Team CBT and with our Feeling Great app is to give people a path out of the woods, out of the place you're trapped and to get into the sunlight and to get this sense of freedom and joy.
Yeah, it seems a little strange to me that hopelessness and despair would be so close cognitively to enlightenment. That a state of mind that, you know, I'm defective and that's horrible and it means it's hopeless is so close to I'm defective and I embrace that. And I'm delighted to be in good company with all of us.
Yeah. Say to me, David, I understand you're kind of defective.
Hey, David, I'm your negative thoughts, and I have a really important message for you. I need you to understand that you're really defective.
I know, and accepting that has been one of the greatest sources of joy in my life. Because, you know, one of the cool things about it? No, what? I found all kinds of other defective people who like to hang out together, like Matt May and Rhonda Borowski and a lot of others, and we have a hell of a good time. That was brilliant. I love that.
Absolutely true, yeah. An excellent example of the acceptance paradox.
Yeah, yeah. All right, shall we dive into our questions for today? Okay.
Let's do that. So the first one is from Adolfo who asks about disturbing and unwelcome intrusive thoughts. Hello, Dr. Burns. My name is Rudy. First and foremost, your writings and podcasts have been life-changing for me. You're amazing. I was recently diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD, and I started experiencing intrusive thoughts around November of last year.
I thought I had obsessive compulsive disorder, but apparently intrusive thoughts are a common companion in ADHD. What would be the best course of action for defeating them? How would I apply team to them, team CBT to them?
Okay, well, I'll let you, as usual, let you folks have the first shot at it, and then I'll throw in my two cents worth.
Yeah, I'm happy to speak to Rodolfo's question. It's an excellent one. I'm glad we're revisiting it. So I'll just point out maybe one of the common places where people get stuck or a little bit trapped trying to defeat their negative intrusive thoughts. And that is that they're trying to eliminate them from their mind. They're trying to control their brain.
And that's simply not a switch that we have. There's no button to unsubscribe from our own minds. Our minds just kind of create thoughts and images and might play annoying jingles that we heard on an advertisement 20 years ago. That's just something that the brain will do. what we're actually offering is to not be disturbed or upset or to get stuck having those thoughts recurrently.
And that requires an understanding that our efforts to try to control our brain will backfire. It's like a law of physics that if we try to press or force or demand that we not think about something, we will inevitably end up thinking about it. And you can just try and experimentally right now demand loudly in your mind that you do not think about a blue-eyed tiger.
and see what occurs in your mind. And so you'll probably realize, oh, I'm suddenly thinking about a blue-eyed tiger. And so the first step is to carefully identify your agenda. If you're trying to eliminate the thought from your brain, you'll run into trouble. But if you're trying to develop a sense of comfort with the contents
of your consciousness, like whatever thoughts, emotions, et cetera, come up, then you've got a chance at a cure of not being troubled by those thoughts and feelings.
All right. Are we ready for Ronda? That was great, Matt. I love what you're saying. So much wisdom in it. How about peeling more layers off of this onion and give us your idea, Ronda?
Well, Matt sets a really high bar, and that was really interesting, Matt. I love that idea of offering not to get upset by the thoughts versus trying to eliminate them. One of the things I first learned about when I went to David's first meeting, Intensive in 2013 was that the beauty of Team CBT is if someone comes to you and they have a condition or a problem that you're not familiar with.
In the past, I'd say, oh my God, what do I do? What do I do? And I'd flip out. But now if I just calmly take a deep breath and say, well, I know what to do.
Actually, I'm going to go through the team model and do the testing and provide empathy and really hear and make a deep connection and then offer them an invitation and work through the specific moment in time and their feelings and their thoughts and positively reframe them. Yeah. I have worked with somebody who had very intrusive thoughts with the idea that he had OCD.
And I can say that the team model with various methods, when we get to that component, that part of it, it does really work. So with the caveat of what you said, Matt, was really, really helpful, coming to peace with them rather than trying to eliminate them. I think just simply following the team model from T to M is a good strategy for any issue.
Love that answer, Rhonda. I agree wholeheartedly.
Thanks. My thinking, you both have totally awesome answers. I don't treat things like ADHD or OCD or try to figure out what people have because we don't have mental disorders for the most part. But we have a lot of feelings and thoughts and symptoms that can be upsetting. And so I think what you said, Ron, is just so absolutely true. You start out with empathy and then you...
look at the the the patient's agenda and and the resistance and you melt away the resistance and then you can put together a daily mood log and put a thought in the in the middle of it of a recovery circle and choose 10 or 15 or 20 ways to challenge that thought which might be i shouldn't be having these uh horrible intrusive thoughts i have a slight advantage from you to
because I exchanged a couple more emails from Rudolfo, and I probably should have included them in the show notes, but I've been really overwhelmed on 10, 11, 12-hour days, so my time has been a little shorter. But what was very interesting that he was saying, and this is some hints for you guys, that he has intrusive thoughts that somebody's murdering his wife or his
doing something to hurt his son and he says it's usually not himself but maybe sometimes himself and he says he loves them to death and he would never do anything to hurt them but he doesn't know why he's having these intrusive images and he doesn't know what to do about it. And now that you guys have some hidden hints, what is the cause and cure?
Right, yeah. So one thing is that he's not only got intrusive thoughts, but he's also got a should statement that's creating suffering when he has those thoughts. So there would be a number of different ways to help with a should statement. Sure.
Matt, what do you think his should statement is? No one should hurt my family. I should protect my family.
Oh, I shouldn't be having these thoughts anymore. I shouldn't have such intrusive, upsetting thoughts going through my mind.
And my comment is, why exactly is he having these thoughts and what would be the sudden 100% cure?
Well, he wants to protect his family. His priorities and values are about making sure that nothing happens to his wife and nothing happens to his son. And his thoughts are there to make sure he's on guard and keeping them safe and doing everything in his power to protect them.
Those are some good and beautiful thoughts. Have any of you ever heard about the hidden emotion technique? When people are anxious, there's often some, the symptoms of the anxiety are often trying to tell us something. Our subconscious mind is trying to tell us something that our conscious mind can't accept because we're too nice. That's the hidden emotion model.
And I'll spill out what I'm thinking if it doesn't pop into your minds.
That's always a good one to try when there's an element of OCD, the hidden emotion.
Right.
Could this emotion be anger at his wife and family?
Exactly. And why does it have to come out through intrusive thoughts? Why doesn't he just acknowledge to himself that he's angry and talk it over with her?
Well, a lot of people have a fear or a phobia about expressing anger.
Yeah, niceness, excessive niceness is one of the common... major themes in all anxiety. 75% of anxious people have this hidden emotion phenomenon. And so I think what's going on is he's this very nice, conscientious fellow. I think we'd all love him if we knew him. But like the rest of us, we sometimes, well, most of us don't get irritable with the people we care about. Isn't that true, Rhonda?
Yeah.
That is sadly so not true.
Yeah. And then if you have a way of sweeping these feelings under the rug, they come out indirectly. And your anxiety is your body's way of telling you, hey, attend to this. This is your subconscious mind talking to you. I'm the poetry of your subconscious mind. and you see something happening to kill your wife, is it possible that you're feeling some anger toward your wife and son?
And if you're the kind of person who finds it hard to admit that, because you think, like so many of us have been taught, if you love someone, you'll never have conflict with them. You'll never be angry with them. And actually, the great thing about anxiety and recovery from it is it teaches us that there's far more to being human than what we think.
And it had to do with your theme, Matt, of accepting. Yeah, maybe these impulses are telling me I have some anger and some discomfort in this situation.
And it would be time to express those feelings and open up and maybe read Feeling Good Together, learn the five secrets of effective communication, and use this as an opportunity to communicate with your wife and maybe son on a deeper and more open level. That would be my kind of simple take on it.
And I've just found that is so often true in my own life because I've had, as you both know, so many forms of anxiety myself. And I've also had this niceness phenomenon that when something comes up and it's upsetting to me, I can't remember what I'm angry about or what I'm upset about. I just feel like the world's going to come to an end.
And then that's my body's way of telling me, David, you're upset with somebody or with something in your life. And your body is telling you to attend to that. And then when I figure out what it is and deal with the problem or express the feelings, in most cases my anxiety, whew, completely disappears. And I suspect that's what's going on here.
We can't treat anyone or give out medical advice in this forum. We're just talking on a general level. But it certainly looks an awful lot like that to me. And this would be something for Rudolfo to consider. And I think I did raise this issue with him. And my memory of it is that he kind of did resonate with that and might be... going in that direction.
So maybe he can get back to us later if he hears this podcast and checks it out and let us know what happened.
Nice. That would be fun. Could I share a brief vignette of an experience that I had about 19 years ago? Yeah, that would be awesome. So I had a dear friend who had his first son was born And one of the things he experienced that he shared with me that was very disturbing to him, his job was to take the boy from downstairs upstairs at the end of the day and to tuck him in.
But every time he was climbing the steps, he would have this intrusive and very disturbing thought of dropping his son over the edge of the balcony. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he began to think that this meant something terrible about him. that maybe he is a bad father or is a psychopath or something like that.
And when I suggested to him that sometimes our brain is just trying to warn us about things and to make sure we're being safe and careful, and he's probably just trying to be especially careful not to drop his son in that moment because he loves his son so much and cares about his son so much. that all of his symptoms went away. He was no longer disturbed.
He realized he should be thinking about that, that his brain is making an effort to protect his baby.
Kind of positive reframing and acceptance.
Exactly. And then the images actually did kind of go away because he was not defending against them. He welcomed them and saw what they were trying to accomplish there for him.
You mean it's okay for me to have these horrible, intrusive thoughts of death to my loved ones? It's okay for other people, but not for you. Okay, great. And I had a similar one in my past. A doctor came to me. He was the nicest guy in the world, and he was working in a low community with few resources.
He was a general practitioner and spending a lot of extra time talking to people and helping them out. He was just working a 60-hour week and making very little income. And then when he had, then he and his wife had their first baby, and he had something very similar to your patients, Matt.
When he would carry the baby, they lived on the second floor of an apartment building, and he would have the fantasy, what if I go and throw the baby over the, not fall over, but throw the baby out of the balcony, over the edge, and kill the baby that way. And it turned out to be a very similar thing that what he wasn't dealing with was the fact that, you know, a baby.
I don't know if either of you have noticed, but they sometimes take up a lot of time in the middle of the night and changing diapers and, you know.
crying and needing time and attention, if you're already putting in 60 hours, you may very well be feeling resentment toward your baby, but you're not allowed to feel resentment because you think you're supposed to be this nice, idealistic person, which this fellow was. And once we brought that to conscious awareness, his solution was a little...
different from your patients, but it had a similar wonderful outcome, was to decide to back off, that he just couldn't be doing all of this charity work and providing for his family at the same time, and that he'd have to actually change his schedule and
carve out some time for himself to relax and unwind and be with the baby and stop trying to do so much for everybody, which was a beautiful thing about him, but it just simply wasn't workable. So I call that the hidden emotion technique, and it's very common today. among any of our listeners right now who are struggling with anxiety, this is one of four models I use in treating anxiety.
There's four ways to get rid of anxiety, and this is one of the four. I usually use all four with every patient, so I don't try to have just one technique that cures everybody. I have many. I've got 40 techniques in my book, One Panic Attacks, that can be life-changing for people with anxiety, but this is one of the coolest of all.
I'm appreciating Rodolfo for his question. Yeah, thank you, Rodolfo. I loved your answer, David.
Yeah, you guys too. And thank you all of you who sent in these questions. Keep them coming in because you keep us in business. We're not making a ton of money, but we're having a ton of fun.
Yeah. Okay, now let's go back to Brittany, who is asking if it's okay to enjoy or even prefer being alone. And she said, Hi, Dr. Burns. One thing I've accepted about myself is I really do enjoy being alone. I think in the past I would try to find a buddy in an uncomfortable situation like the first day of work or orientation or going to a baby shower alone, etc.,
But now I find that I am most comfortable when I'm not included with everyone else. However, I think it can come across as off-putting to some people. Sometimes I get the feeling people see me excluding myself as rejection to them. That's not my intention, and nobody has ever actually said that, but it's a thought that pops up.
I'm just wondering if you think this form of acceptance is good or bad. I mean, it's been good for me. Maybe it's just bad for others. Brittany.
Okay, you guys get first shot at it, and I'll take up the rear and give my thoughts when you two have done your brilliant reflections.
Well, piggybacking on what you said about healthy versus unhealthy acceptance... She's asking, is this form of acceptance that she enjoys or prefers being alone? Does accepting that part of herself, does that give her joy? Does that give her hope and intimacy and laughter and growth? Or is she hating that part about herself? Is she feeling hopeless, isolated, cynicism, resignation?
And if she can approach this with joy... Versus approaching it with self-hatred, then that's for her to figure out if it's healthy or unhealthy, right?
Well, she's saying she enjoys being alone, and she wants to know if we think that's okay. So what's your vote?
Well, that's what I mean. But she's also worried about other people judging her.
Right. That can happen, too, if you prefer being alone and you don't always want to be going to the party.
I think if we were going through the whole team model with her, I think it would be really fun to do a feared fantasy with her about that.
Yeah, that'd be fun. We can maybe demonstrate that in a couple of minutes here. Good thinking, Rhonda.
Okay. What do you think, Matt? If it's just a simple survey question, then my answer is it's absolutely fine to enjoy being on your own and doing your own thing.
I think if other people – we can demonstrate the feared fantasy and prove that if other people are judging us for that, that we don't need to be bothered by their judgment, that the feared critic of our nightmares has no teeth and can't hurt us. Yeah. I think the one caveat I would have is if she has her own personal reason for not wanting to spend as much time on her own.
So, for example, if it's a goal for her to have a family, but she's not going out to meet anyone or date, then that could be a reason that she might want to be more social or do more dating or something like that. But if it's only the concern that she's letting other people down, and they're judging her, then I think we get back to this probable feeling of hidden anger.
Like she probably feels a little bit annoyed that she's not allowed to make her own decision and just choose to be on her own. And she could do some methods like survey technique. And she could ask people, is it annoying to you that I kind of prefer my own personal time? As far as I'm concerned, my response would be no. Have the time of your life and enjoy being alone.
And if you wanted to spend time together, that'd be great too.
Yeah, I love that, Matt and Rhonda. My answer would be along the same lines, but I have a personal investment here because I often prefer being alone and I have to work hard at saying no to things I'm invited to. And fortunately, my wife feels the same too. that we'd rather just hang out at home a lot. And I love being with our cat and with my wife or just unwind, watch some TV.
But the reason why I find this an interesting question is because some people think think that it's morally wrong to enjoy being alone, that you can't be truly happy unless you're involved with other people who you care about and who care about you, and that there's something kind of inherently inferior about the joy one would have when being alone.
But for me, you know, it can be great like being with you guys right now. I could rate it at 100 out of 100. But I can also rate, when I'm alone with myself, might be 101 out of 100. It's just not less in any way whatsoever.
And I think that's the interesting thing because there's some people, particularly in the mental health space, who have such strong beliefs that you must have love and be loved and to be with people you love to feel completely happy and fulfilled. And I can tell you, to me, that's just so much bullshit. To me, it's more of a miracle if you can be with people and have a good time.
And one of the reasons I enjoy our Tuesday training group at Stanford and being with you guys on podcasts is that we're open and we're not trying to impress each other and we're just – We're just being genuine, which makes it nice.
But most of the time, I don't want to be in a social situation and kind of resent it if I'm feeling pressured to be in that social situation when I would really much prefer to be alone. So, Brittany, if you're crazy, you can join our club because we're crazy, too.
Right on. The water's warm. Jump on in.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I went camping with a group of friends last week. And at some point, some really fun thing was being planned. And I just like, wow, wow, wow. I said, I'm going to the tent. I need to be alone. I'm going to read. You guys can have fun without me.
Right. Nice.
You know, it's rejuvenating, too, to be alone.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But a lot of people don't believe it because our society puts so much pressure on us to this love addiction and approval addiction. You need love and approval to feel happy and worthwhile. And in my book, it just isn't true. The only love and approval you need is your own.
And if you don't have that, being with all the people in the world isn't going to make you happy unless you've decided to love and accept yourself. And I've spent a lot of time alone and loved it. And I found out, you know, David, you're not a bad guy to hang out with. What a surprise.
Yeah, for sure. I bet you have some interesting thoughts.
Oh, my cats love me, too. You know, it's just so easy to hang out with a cat. They're just so grateful if you just give them a little love and keep them fed and pet them a lot. That sounded kind of lame, but I really mean it. Matt, do you have cats?
I'm sadly allergic to cats. I love cats, and they love me. But, yeah, I tend to... get all puffy in the face and runny nose, et cetera.
Yeah. We have allergies in our family to cats, too, so I can't have them.
Yeah, it's sad. Sad. Oh, by the way, oh, no, never mind. I was going to announce something, but it's still private, so I'm not allowed to announce it without getting permission, I have a feeling. But some good tidings are coming in the direction of our family.
Oh, neat.
Yeah.
Oh. That's very curiosity generating. Shall we try a feared fantasy?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let's just do that. You're afraid that someone would judge you for enjoying being alone, right? Mm-hmm.
So they judge you for being afraid of being alone.
Yeah, and so they judge you for being afraid of being alone?
For enjoying being alone.
Enjoying being alone, yes, yeah, and judge you. And who do you want to be? Do you want to be the judger or the judgee? The judgee. The person being judged. And Matt and I will be the critics from hell. Okay. We're going to try to shame you into enjoying being alone. Rhonda, we're having this get-together, and we really want you to come.
Oh, I appreciate the invitation, but I feel like I just want to be alone today at home, reading, relaxing by myself.
You're going to exclude us? You're going to exclude us then? You don't want to be with us. You'd rather be alone than be with us. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, that is what I'm saying. You guys are really awesome and I love hanging out with you when I'm ready for it. And when I'm ready for it, I'll invite you to do something or I'll accept your invitation. But right now, it's just a different kind of a feeling I have about being alone.
Well, I think I judge you real bad because anyone who enjoys being alone has to be some kind of kook. Well, then I accept that I'm kind of a kook. That's abnormal. That's abnormal and immoral.
Wow, immoral. That's kind of confusing. Could you tell me specifically what's immoral about being alone?
No, it's okay to be alone as long as you're miserable. But if you're happy being alone, you're some kind of a sociopath.
That's really hard. That's harsh. A sociopath.
Well, you're the sociopath, not us. We love being together. We're people people. People, please, or people people. People lover. People lovers, yes. We love each other. But we hate you because you enjoy being alone.
Oh, gosh. I really appreciate you, that you have the quality of loving being around people all the time. And sometimes I... I'm not going to say I wish I could be like you. I just really appreciate that that's one of your strengths, and that's one of the qualities I love about you. But right now, it's just not something I'm feeling. I'm feeling really happy being alone, and that's my choice.
Rhonda, I also want to say that I'm extremely powerful and judging you, but I'm also exquisitely sensitive and being hurt by you. And you should feel I'm very weak, and you should feel... bad about hurting me and also scared about my, from my judgment, my powerful.
Yes. And I too feel rejected and very hurt right now. And I'm going to be miserable all day because of you. Wow. That's giving me a lot of power over you.
I feel really sad that you're feeling hurt. And I'd love for you to tell me what it's like for you to be hurt because I don't want to go do the things that you're inviting me to do. What's that like for you that I want to do something else?
I'd love to hear more about that. I refuse to talk about it. I don't want to have anything to do with you. Okay. Well, this is kind of ridiculous, but this is the claim, right? Yeah. Who's winning, Rhonda?
I kind of feel like I'm winning.
Big or small? Big. Big or huge?
I think I'm winning huge.
Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah. Absolutely.
I'm seeing the good in you that you're bringing to this situation instead of fighting you and asking you out of curiosity, like, what is it like for you? Yeah, right. That's opening an interesting discussion.
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Now, what are we going to do here for John from Ireland today?
Okay, well, let's read what he has to say. John from Ireland asks, Help, I'm shoulding on myself again. What can I do? Please do another podcast on should statements. Hi, David and Rhonda. I love the podcast and the work you folks are doing. I listen to the podcast regularly, and you're both bringing such great benefits to the world. And we'd have to add Matt to that, too.
I would love to hear another podcast on should statements. I've been going through a pretty bad and extended period of anxiety and depression in recent months. And I've been really trying to challenge my thoughts, but without much success. I am addicted to shoulds, unfortunately, and I beat up on myself relentlessly.
I've tried to do a cost-benefit analysis, and the motivation piece is a huge part of the benefit side that is keeping me stuck. I really want to give up on my should statements. They're making my life a misery, but I'm finding I don't want to let go of the motivation piece. I don't... I have a sample below.
I'd love to know if there are further steps or techniques I could use aside from the cost-benefit analysis to address the benefits and the perceived motivation piece so I can fully let go of the shoulds. Thanks so much. John from Ireland.
Okay. Well, there's an awful lot here, but a lot more writing if you read the show notes. And you guys, once again, share your thoughts, and then I'll see if I can add a little bit to it. He has this example, and he sent me, again, emails with like 30 should statements in a row. The only one in the show notes is I should have plans on a Saturday, which he believes 99%.
And he says the distortions there are should, emotional reasoning, self-blame, mental filter, and discounting the positive. And then he does a cost-benefit analysis. What are the benefits of that thought? It lets me know when I'm not performing to the standards I set for myself. It shows me my passion and goal in life for doing fun and exciting things and motivates me, you know.
And then the cost is that emotionally when I should like on myself, I beat up on myself relentlessly and this makes me feel depressed, anxious and lowers my self-esteem and reinforces my perfectionistic beliefs and other negative costs of hitting yourself with should statements. And then he says the benefits are 40 and the costs are 60. So I'll let you guys dive into this.
Okay, I just have one thing to say, Matt.
Go for it, Rhonda.
Well, it looks like he's leaping to methods before he's done a lot of other work. You know, he's identified anxiety and depression, but I bet there's a whole bunch of other feelings that he has. And he's identified this one thought, I should have plans on Saturday.
And I imagine if he's coping with should statements, there are lots of other painful, negative thoughts related to each one of the feelings that he's having, since we believe that thoughts... drive feelings. It would be nice to identify some other thoughts that he has. And then we haven't done any positive reframing.
I mean, we know that he feels motivated by a should statement, but what else do we know that's really awesome about the feelings that he's having, or even that thought, I should have plans on a Saturday. So I'd want to take a step backward and
before doing cost-benefit analysis or any other method, and really explore with him what do these feelings and thoughts say about him that are really awesome and beautiful or give him an advantage or maybe they speak to his values. I think missing that piece is a huge mistake.
I agree that I think the most important part of the work is motivational thinking. is to understand how is this thought, this structure of thinking beneficial to you? What would be the problem of letting go of the shoulds? How is it functioning? And what does it say that's great about your value system? And if that's not addressed, if that
resistance is still in place, none of the methods will be that effective. If he overcomes that resistance and he decides, I want to let go of those shoulds and I have permission to do that, then we'd have a lot of cool techniques like the semantic technique or the Socratic technique or shades of gray or reattribution, et cetera, et cetera.
But the first question I have is, why would he let go of his shoulds? It seemed like they're highly... motivational and getting him to live up to his standards. And I can see a lot of other good reasons to shoot himself. And I'm not convinced yet that I'm not convinced yet that he should stop shooting himself.
Yeah, right. Absolutely. He'd have to convince us that of the motivational thing. And then after that, then the semantic technique works really well, but it won't work in the absence of the motivational piece. But let's just show how that works. You know, you can be him and I'll be his negative thoughts. Are you ready? For the semantic technique? Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah. Sounds good.
You know, John, I'm the negative John, and I want you to know that you should have plans on a Saturday.
I often like having plans on a Saturday. I don't have any plans this Saturday, and that's actually okay with me. Sometimes I think, gosh, I'd prefer to have some plans. Maybe I could do something and make some plans. That's exciting to me.
Great. Now, you know, John, so you beat me on that one, but the fact is you should be doing better at work. You're too slow and probably you're going to screw up and ruin the whole project for the company.
Oh, I'd love to avoid that. That'd be great. I'd love to be faster, more efficient, make fewer errors. Maybe you've got some pointers for me on how I could do better in that way.
No, I just think you're condemned to slowness and inadequacy, and you should be better than you are.
Well, if I'm just condemned to slowness and inadequacy, I'll just accept that then. That's okay with me. I guess I would prefer to be better, but you're saying I couldn't be better.
Well, okay, but what if you ruin the projects at work, and what if everyone else is way better than you, and they find out about you?
Oh, gosh, I just plead guilty and admire them for their awesomeness. They're doing such great work, and oh, man, I goofed up. I wish I hadn't messed up in that way, but they did such a great job. Gosh, I feel so fortunate to be a part of such a brilliant team.
Yeah, I think that's great. That's a beautiful example. And again, I did quite a bit of exchange with this fellow, and I think he also has some kind of shyness and social anxiety mixed in with it. So he He got up the courage to tell one of his colleagues that he thinks he's working awfully long hours and not being productive enough and barely keeping his head above water.
And he told her that he thought he was the only one who feels that way. And he was delighted when she told him she's been feeling exactly the same way. And he felt that exchange made him feel like a member of the human race again. And so in addition to the great techniques that you mentioned, I think that to use exposure techniques and confront his
his fear of people and began to open up and use self-disclosure and also the survey technique to tell people how you're really feeling inside and ask how they're experiencing things and how they might be thinking of you and use that as an opportunity to be vulnerable and to actually get closer to people because I think one of the problems of being alone isn't that you can't be happy when you're alone but
you may be missing out on some realistic feedback and knowing how reality works, knowing how other people really are, because sometimes we've got fantasies that other people are so much better than we are and so much smarter and point of fact. Most people
People that I know struggle considerably, and even people who are very successful almost always have many blind spots and many weaknesses as well. I'm just babbling, so I'll shut up, but that was my contribution to that question. Loved it.
Thank you for the role play too, David.
Yeah, thank you. Matt, what was the comment that you made? What you would want someone to ask themselves? What would be the problem in eliminating this thought or feeling?
Yeah, well, let's say you could eliminate shoulds from your mind. Would there be any danger to doing so? Because a lot of people imagine some slippery slope that if I'm not constantly monitoring and shoulding myself... That I'll just become complacent and lazy, never get anything done. That I need my shoulds to motivate me and keep me on track. And that can be a powerful form of resistance.
That if someone is there and they're thinking, gosh, yeah, that's just true. I have to should myself or I'm going to be in trouble. Then I wouldn't go on to any methods anymore. there. I would just admire their sense of responsibility and they want to be productive and contribute to society. And that's awesome. So why would we change this? This is a good thing that's working for them. Right.
Okay. And that's paradoxical agenda setting, which is one of the key components of team therapy. And that's the thing that has really opened up the doors for rapid recovery, rapid change for nearly all of the people that I work with. And the early days when all we had was, you know, 100 or more methods, it was great to have all those methods.
But finding this resistance and motivational piece has transformed therapy from months and months of slow progress at all to almost overnight transformations for a great many people. we don't have the answers for everybody, but certainly my capacity to work with people rapidly and effectively has just gone up incredibly. And I think you've been experiencing that also for a decade or two now, Matt.
Yeah, that's right.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think... The metaphor sometimes I've used is that when we're working on the thoughts, if we just work on the thoughts, if all we do is cognitive therapy. And we're not looking at the motivation, the values, the reasons to keep the thoughts. It's sort of like we're trying to defeat this plant.
But if we go to the roots, if we address the root of the problem, suddenly the whole plant changes and transforms. And it's easy. It's not a constant hacking away at this thing that keeps regrowing. It's an actual fundamental, deeper type of change and cure that's possible.
And would that apply to any of the people who are listening to the podcast today and are struggling to change and have been failing in their efforts with or without a therapist to change? Probably 90% of them, yeah.
Yeah.
Would you ever use the triple paradox, like the advantage of should statements, the disadvantages of eliminating them, what should statements say about them? That's awesome.
Is that something that you would do? Yeah, brilliant thought because it is an addiction. And next time I – I run into a shooter, people who are shooting on themselves. I'm going to try that exact technique as well as, of course, all of our regular positive reframing and, you know, types of thing. And then the gentle ultimatum, the sitting with open hands. But that could be another nice tool.
And we were demonstrating that earlier today. with a recording for the app that we might post on YouTube. And I demonstrated the triple paradox and the devil's advocate technique with a colleague who was struggling with overeating. And we had a lot of fun with it. You know, we haven't seen it or anything because we just recorded it before we did this podcast today.
But I think it can apply, those tools can apply to any situation that has an addictive component. And definitely should statements, there's shoulds against yourself. We get addicted to that and that causes guilt, shame, and depression. Should statements against other people, that's the cause of war, violence, hatred. marital conflict, relationship conflict, violence,
And then there's should statements against the world and that, you know, the world shouldn't be so screwed up. The world should be better. And those should statements cause frustration, resentment, and a lot of happiness as well. And in all three cases, there's powerful motivational factors keeping those shoulds alive because people are afraid if I give up this should addiction,
I'll be caving in, bad things will happen, I'll be giving up on my goals for my life, I'll be giving up on my idealism and my chance to score big and make some wonderful achievement. But as it turns out, the reality is just the opposite. The shoulds, in my experience, just... hold me back and create all kind of angst and negative feelings that never lead to creativity or breakthroughs.
But you've got to acknowledge the positives and the shoulds, the way they seem to be working for us as a first step to see, is this something I am interested in letting go of? And maybe they're working for me, so I should keep shoulding away until I don't have any should left in my poopy bottom.
One thing I've seen be quite effective that's also an agenda setting for should statements is a version of the magic dial question, which is something like, how much longer should I continue to should myself? Yeah. Should I be shooting myself at all times from the moment I wake up in the morning? Should I be doing that as intensely as possible?
Should I maximize my suffering at all times for the rest of my life in order to get the best results here?
And then there's another technique I love called how many minutes. Say, David, you should use should statements and criticize yourself. Say that to me.
David, I think you're not using enough should statements or self-criticism.
Okay, great. Would you like me to criticize myself some more? Absolutely. Yeah, a good person would do that. How many minutes a day would you be recommending or hours? Just constantly until you're better. Well, I've been doing it for years now, and I haven't gotten any better. So, you know, maybe you just want me to do it forever?
I think that would be an appropriate plan.
Oh, thank you. That's a wonderful idea, but I think I'm probably going to not go for that. Okay.
Well, that's very rebellious of you and bad of you.
Yeah, I know. I've been taking bad training from Rhonda, Matt, and David.
OK, well, it's rubbing off. I think it's working.
Would it ever be helpful to ask your patient or your client to you? Well, you decide how many minutes a day that you want to, you know, should yourself and you decide when you want to do it. And like I want to do it at breakfast when I'm having my coffee, reading my paper, I'm going to really should myself intensely then.
Yeah, that's called negative practice or worry break. Schedule time. You can do that for anxiety or should statements or anything. Just schedule at a certain time. How many minutes a day of misery do I need in order to be a peak performer? And then if you need three minutes a day, then schedule three minutes to beat up on yourself intensely. Or if you need ten minutes, try ten minutes.
It's an interesting concept and it's an interesting technique. Well, does anyone else have any wise words? I want to thank Rodolfo. This might be your first question, Rodolfo, but it was a humdinger. Brittany, this wasn't your first question. You've actually been live on a podcast with us once, maybe twice before, and you always ask great questions. So keep them coming.
And John from Ireland, we... We love you and really appreciate your interest and your kind comments and good, great questions. And all the rest of you, keep your questions pouring in here. We're publishing now on YouTube so your comments can appear. on the video version of our show, and they'll appear on YouTube. And so far, we've been able to keep up.
I've responded to all of the comments we've gotten so far. We've only been on YouTube for a few, you know, podcasts so far. It's something brand new, but here we are. We're in video. We love you all, and we look forward to seeing you again next week. Thanks, David and Rhonda. It's a joy to be with you.
Thank you. It's my honor to be here with you. Goodbye. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.