Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
432: Finding Humans Less Scary Marathon Returns! Yay!
Mon, 20 Jan 2025
Jacob Towery, MD Michael Luo, MD Finding Humans Less Scary The 3rd Annual Triumphant Return of the Incredibly Popular and Awesomely Effective Social Anxiety Marathon Two Full Days of Unbelievable-- and Incredibly Cheap-- Help for You! Featuring Two Super-Shrinks--Drs. Jacob Towery and Michal Luo March 29-30 2025, Palo Alto, California (In-Person Only, No Zoom) 9:30 AM - 5:30 PM Saturday and Sunday Today we interview two eminent and fantastic psychiatrists, Dr. Jacob Towery and Dr. Michael Luo, who describe their upcoming and mind-blowing two-day social anxiety weekend marathon, This intensive experience is dedicated to addressing and drastically reducing feelings of social anxiety. What's that? Social anxiety simply refers to the intense discomfort that so many people struggle with in social situations and interaction's with strangers. This will NOT just be some kind o head trip or motivational talk, but rather a fabulous experiential journey into a new and more confident you! Do you want freedom from your fears? Do you want a new life and a radical shift in your views of other human beings. Do you want great love, more friendships and deeper and more genuine connections? Then this is for you! JUST say YES! How much does it cost, you ask? It cost a great deal in terms of courage and the decision to change your life--but it's ridiculously cheap in terms of $.:All we ask is your $20 donation to one of the charities listed on the website. The location will be secret until you register, but it will be in Palo Alto, California. Seating, as in previous years, will be strictly limited, so ACT FAST to reserve your spot! How does it work? Well, you'll learn and practice many of the popular and powerful TEAM-CBT methods, in real world settings, such as Shame-Attacking Exercises, Smile and Hello Practice, Talk Show Host, Rejection Training, Flirtation Practice, Self-Disclosure, the Survey Technique, and much, much more. Thank you for listening today! Jacob, Michael, Rhonda, and David
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Borowski, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Hello, Rhonda.
Hello, David, and welcome to our listeners from all over the world and the universe. This is the Feeling Good Podcast, and we're on episode 432. We have two special guests today, two stars of Team CBT. We have Jacob Tauri, who's an extraordinary... child psychiatrist, one of David's first students, I understand. And we have Michael Luo, who is a psychiatric resident.
He's at the Chicago Medical School at Rosalind Franklin University. He's in his second year of psychiatric residency and an up-and-coming team star. Hi, Michael.
Hello. Thanks for having us on.
And for the last two years, Jacob and Michael have put on a free weekend workshop that they've entitled Finding Humans Less Scary. And we're excited to announce that they're going to do it again in 2025. So we want to invite you to share about the past and to get us excited about this year's workshop.
This will be the third anniversary, right? Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, thank you guys for having us. It's great to be on here. Michael, do you want to start us off?
Yeah, sure. I would love to. So Jacob has always done miraculous work with a lot of teens when it comes to depression and anxiety. And one day he called me thinking about how to take it to the next level and how to help maybe even a bunch of people and scale up all at the same time. And through that, we started to host a couple of workshops called Finding Humans Less Scary.
It is a social anxiety workshop held on the weekend. This weekend, it will be March 29th and March 30th from 930 to 530 p.m. all day. And it's a great place for people to really get out of their comfort zone and try a lot of social behavioral techniques and learn from the master himself, Jacob Towery.
Is that accurate? Well, one of the master's main accolades. Yes, of course.
I was going to say, yeah, I learned from the master himself, and I'm happy to be decent at it now.
Well, tell us about your workshop. I know the last two were smash hits. I also think that doing something that's inexpensive or free for the community is something that I always like to support and comes from the heart, comes from the right place. And I think that even leads to the success. But tell us what... What should we expect if we're going to attend this workshop?
Should we come with our teenagers? Is it just for teenagers or for teens and adults? What's the age range? And what will happen in these two days? It sounds scary.
Yeah, it's a little scary. We will have people as young as 14. We're going to cap it this year at 135. So if you're over 135, you are not welcome at this workshop because it will probably be too demanding physically for you. If you're 135 or younger, we'd love to have you. Yeah, so I learned tremendous amounts about shyness and social anxiety from David and
David's books, and we're going to be teaching people a lot of cool skills, learning how to talk to new people, learning how to start conversations, learning how to continue conversations, learning how to stop being self-conscious. We're going to have some flirtation training. We're going to have people learn how to get rejected and not take it personally and have it bother a person so much.
We'll talk a little bit about consent and We're going to do a lot of different interpersonal exercises to help people learn how to be skillfully vulnerable with others. And it's going to be fun. So it's going to be about 100 people in the room together. We'll have various fantastic people like Rhonda coming and assisting.
And it should be a fabulous weekend where people will hopefully conquer a lot of their social anxiety and shyness if they desire to.
Let me see if I got that right so far because I'm making a list and checking it twice. You want to find out it's naughty and nice. It's March 29th to 30. It will be from 930 to 530 on each of those weekend days. I presume the location will again be kept secret except for those who register.
That's right. And it will be in person only. So we get about... 500 questions per year. Will it be over Zoom? Nope, this will not be over Zoom. It will only be in person. But if you want to come in person to California, we'd love to have you.
Yeah. If I'm living like overseas, can I attend virtually?
Oh, if you're overseas, then you can not attend virtually. But if you're domestic, you can not attend virtually.
Okay. Really? 14 through 135 years old. And it'll be two all-day affairs. And the idea is not just to learn but to experience and practice new ways of relating to people. So if you're socially shy or anxious, this is the place to be on March 29th and 30th, 2025, I presume. Yes.
And if I go there, I'm going to learn how to talk to new people, how to start a conversation, how to continue a conversation. I'm going to learn how to become less self-conscious. I'm going to learn how to flirt. And I'm going to learn something called rejection practice and vulnerability training. And I think I might have missed one or two.
Yeah, I think those are the big ones.
Oh, okay.
We'll be doing lots of shame attacking exercises. We decided this year we're going to put that in even earlier because that's always a big hit. And we can help people become a lot less self-conscious quickly. We'll probably talk a little bit about consent. We'll be doing various interpersonal exercises to help people feel more connected with others.
But the big goal is, as you guys know, a lot of people move through the world in kind of a cautious, wary, defensive manner where they see other people as judgmental, mean, aggressive, and they feel like they have to be very guarded. And it's a less pleasant, less fun way of being. And we want to help people who desire to learn how to see people as potential future friends or romantic partners and
have more fun engaging interpersonally.
Yeah, you've talked about that. When people are anxious, they're always thinking, you know, I'm not good enough and I'm not attractive enough and I'm not interesting or smart or have high enough social status. It's all focused on me.
But there's a mirror image of that that's in your mind if you're shy, and that's that you're not only writing yourself off as a loser, you're writing other people off as losers too because you're seeing other people as dangerous and mean-spirited and judgmental and dangerous and aggressive. Right.
And the idea in these two days is to transform that worldview at the gut level so you begin to experience people in a more loving way, a fun way, that life can be fun. Dating and getting to know people can be a fun experience. It doesn't have to be like walking through a minefield and waiting to get blown out of the water at any point. at any moment. How do you bring about these changes?
And is there a motivational component to it as well as the mindset, the cognitive component?
I definitely think there is a mindset.
thank you for that invitation yeah i definitely think there is a mindset switch after three years of working with jacob i think i'm inclined now to see other humans as like me rather than as an other and it really is like a conscious decision it's like a mental switch when i see someone now i try to relate to them how are they similar to me do they have the same suffering as me um
Rather than like focusing on, oh, they look different from me or they speak differently from me. I'm always looking for commonalities. And that just kind of allowed me to warm up to people quickly. I have so much to thank for Jacob's existence and everything else.
Michael, are these techniques that you yourself have practiced with your own life?
Oh, yeah. So after the event every year, I always have takeaways and I try to practice. This year, I focused a lot on consent, since that was a pretty big part of Finding Humans Less Scary 2. I find that consent is such a genius idea because... Vulnerability is a super great skill to connect with other people, but that consent really helps me balance and allows me to check in.
Is my vulnerability welcome here? Is this a good option? And so I love when Jacob asks, would you like a handshake or would you like a hug? And it gives the option to the other person. It's very honoring.
Yeah, I love that you're saying that, Michael. And actually, I really, really, really appreciate that this is a part of your weekends as a woman. And I think speaking for every woman, we've all had experiences with people who have not honored consent.
So that you're right off when you're teaching social, how to improve someone's social interactions, starting off with teaching consent is, you know, really powerful. And I love it.
Thank you. I'm glad you said that. I've wondered, you know, did I spend too much time on that this past year? Because it's something I'm pretty passionate about, but it's nice to hear that it was well-received and I'll make sure to include it again this year.
Well, tell me more. I'm kind of a naive listener, and I don't understand this vulnerability consent thing. What does that mean? Should I just walk up to somebody and say, would you prefer a handshake or a hug?
Exactly. Just strangers, just walk up to them and say, would you like a handshake or a hug? And then you'll get to practice rejection training with that when they say, who are you? Go away.
Well, how do you use this consent thing? And what is rejection practice?
Yeah, so I'll take the consent part. So This is an area I'm really interested in and I think is tremendously important. And I think that a lot of times people assume that if they want to do something to someone, that then they should get to be able to do it. So if they want to hug someone, they ought to be able to hug anyone they want to hug.
And I don't think that is an optimal way of moving through the world. And instead, I think it's better to touch people if they want to be touched in those ways. So even something that sounds kind of innocuous, like a hug, I think can feel very abrupt and off-putting to someone if they don't want that at that time.
So we practice in the workshop getting in the habit of when you meet someone who you don't already have a very established relationship with, you say, like if I was meeting Rhonda and Rhonda was a new person to me, I might say, Rhonda, it's lovely to meet you. Would you enjoy a hug, a handshake, a wave, an elbow bump, none of the above? Something like that. And then she could pick.
She could say, no, I don't want any of those. Or she could say, I'd love a hug. Or she could say, I don't really feel like a hug, but an elbow bump sounds nice. Great. Let's do an elbow bump. So it gives her options and gives her flexibility and she's not kind of forced into anything. And it takes away my entitlement. Like I'm not entitled to touch Rhonda. She doesn't want to be touched.
And I think it's good training. I'll pick on men, but I think it's particularly important for men to get in the habit of assuming I'm not entitled to be able to touch people just because I want to touch them. I ought to ask first and see if people enthusiastically want the touch I'm offering. So I think that's an important message of the workshop.
And then rejection training, I think, is really fun.
Hold on. Hold on. So if I go to this workshop, will there be an exercise for me to practice this consent question? Yes.
I think you'll agree with me, David. Intellectual learning is nice, but it's largely useless if it doesn't translate into practice. understanding at the gut level and learning how to behaviorally make changes. So everything is going to be practiced. We're going to be practicing consent. We're going to be practicing how to be vulnerable with people.
We're going to be practicing shame attack exercises and rejection training and self-disclosure technique and talk shows technique. Everything will be practiced.
I feel scared because I might make a fool of myself or get rejected at the workshop.
You will. Yeah, you will make a fool of yourself and you will get rejected. And that would be so great. We'd love to have you if you're willing to do those things. And I will make a fool of myself and I will get rejected. And so will Michael and Rhonda and everyone else who's there.
Awesome. Awesome. Okay.
But it's not that you're lecturing, like you must use consent. It's that it's fun. Like the point of this whole weekend is that it's fun. Right. Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. It's a fun weekend. Consent can totally be fun. It can totally be silly. And paradoxically, the more people feel relaxed and comfortable through use of enthusiastic verbal consent, the easier it is for people to ease into being vulnerable and having a good time and relaxing. Exactly.
Yeah, and I think consent even goes past just physical touch. It can even be used for giving a compliment. That's something Jacob also taught me is asking someone instead of love bombing them right away, like, would you like a compliment? And that's like very honoring. Instead of like me going to David, oh, David, you taught me everything I know. You've changed my life. Thank you so much.
I think maybe David might like an invitation first. Like, hey, David, would you like a compliment from me about what you've done for me?
Only if it's over the top. Very cool. How about vulnerability training? How would I do that at the workshop, Michael?
Yeah. When I think about vulnerability, I sometimes think about the age old, tell me about yourself question. So when I think about that question, tell me about yourself, I instinctively think about my secondary characteristics, like my title and my job, my ethnic background as a Chinese American, where I live, where I grew up.
But when I think about it some more, it doesn't really answer, tell me about yourself. It doesn't allow people to get to know me and who I am. It says something about my superficial characteristics and some parts of the life I've lived, but doesn't really give people a feel of who I am.
Whereas if I tell people instead that I love to host events, not just finding humans less scary, but in general, because I love to see people happy and to bring something new to the table, something exciting. I'm also a very sensitive person who gets hurt easily, but also shows that I'm very perceptive and sharp.
if I give those descriptors instead, it may allow people to get a better sense of who I am, not just the formal title, job, and where I've lived.
Now, you say you're vulnerable and sensitive and easily hurt as a part of who you are. And does that go back to earlier experiences in your life when you were treated poorly in school or something like that and maybe treated in a harsh or unkind way? Yeah.
Yeah, I think I was sensitive from the very beginning. I remember in middle school, I was forced by my mother to order at McDonald's and I froze up. I was stuttering and I started crying in front of the female cashier at McDonald's and I couldn't even finish my order. It was a big moment. But really, I recognize now that it is like that feebleness and that fear
human nature of being insecure that people actually gravitate towards. It's not really me being perfect or me being an MD or me having these accolades. It's actually my feebleness that people are drawn towards. It's like a strength now.
Yeah. If you're not ashamed yourself, then your former liability becomes a huge plus. And that's hard for people to understand until they've experienced it, which might be one of the benefits of this workshop. And what you said, Jacob, was 200% true, is that intellectual learning is isn't worth anything. You have to experience it at the gut level to see that it's really true.
Now, let me ask you, Michael, does your degree of education Anxiety or in social situations, does that fluctuate and sometimes disappear entirely, but over time gradually creeps back in and then you have to do certain exercises repeatedly to keep it at bay?
Yes, my social anxiety absolutely fluctuates. Before this podcast, I was very anxious, about 70% anxious. I didn't eat before this because I figured it might want to come back up. And now that we're doing it, I'm feeling maybe 15% anxious. Yeah, it kind of goes up and down for sure. And actually what helped me before this podcast was imagining David saying, 70%, that's not enough.
Bring it up more.
Yeah, can we all reject you or criticize you or shame attack you or something?
Yeah, for sure.
You want to do Feared Fantasy?
Yeah, I'm welcome. Yeah.
Well, for Feared Fantasy, you would tell us if we were having negative thoughts about you, but not saying them, just thinking them, what would we be thinking? What are you afraid that Rhonda and David and maybe Jacob would be thinking about you, Michael?
That I really don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not really in the right place here. And it doesn't make sense.
Don't know what I'm talking about. Talking about not in the right place.
And that I'm kind of a fraud for trying to host a social anxiety workshop.
We're just looking for distorted thoughts, Michael. Okay, kind of a fraud for helping out. And any others? These are really good ones.
That's the most of it.
Okay. And when those things go through your mind, how believable are they? I don't know what I'm... David and Rhonda and Jacob will think I don't know what I'm talking about. They'll think I'm not in the right place. They'll think I'm kind of a fraud for trying to help out at a social anxiety workshop.
They're probably 35% true.
Okay. And then are there times when you've been very anxious when they seemed much more true than that? Yes. How true have they seemed in the past?
Maybe like 80 or 90 percent.
Okay. Okay. Well, we'll see if we can get them back up to that level. Now, the way that this works for listeners who may not be familiar or if you are familiar – The feared fantasy is a kind of exposure technique, and it's designed when you have fears that you can't confront very easily in reality because if people are having these thoughts about you, they'll deny it.
And so you never get a chance to confront this monster. And so when we do feared fantasy, we're going to go into an Alice in Wonderland nightmare world where there are two unusual rules. First, if you think that Jacob and David and Rhonda are having these thoughts about you, they really are. And they're not at all polite.
The second weird rule is they get right up in your face and try to humiliate you and say these things to you. And the point of the exercise is not to be cruel, but to give, in this case, you, Michael, or whoever we're doing it with, the chance to transcend some of your deepest fears and discover for the first time that the monster really has no teeth.
And there's a variety of ways to defend against these attacks. But let's just dive right into it. Is that okay, Michael? I'm ready. And who would you like to attack you first with one of these thoughts? We'll say things like, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. You're not in the right place. You're kind of a fraud for trying to help out.
I think it would hurt most if it came from Jacob.
Jacob. Okay. Okay.
So, Michael, do you have a few minutes? Can we talk for a little bit?
I'm available. Okay.
Well, I just want to let you know that you're a fraud.
Wow. And what exactly am I a fraud?
Well, you're pretending to be a psychiatry resident who knows something about helping people overcome social anxiety. But all of those are just false information.
Yeah, it's true. It's definitely unusual for a psychiatry resident to help people with social anxiety in a huge pro bono situation. manner where we're inviting 100 people from the community. It's definitely odd, eccentric, unfamiliar. At the same time, I'm a level three team CBT clinician. This is what I do. This is why I practice psychiatry, because psychiatry, I think, is outdated.
And what team has brought me is nothing short of
miracles and happiness it's just something that i want to share i don't really care actually if you judge me that you think i'm a fraud or not i don't really care because people come people get relief euphoric and i'm just here for a good time so i don't really care what you say okay who won i felt like i won that one big or small i felt like pretty big big or huge i felt huge Huge. How awesome.
And how did you get to huge? I loved my counterattack. I think that was good.
Yeah. Okay. Awesome.
I have to say, Michael, that I'm judging you right now because it wasn't to me huge. It was stupendously huge. It actually brought, you know, it kind of made me feel all kind of teary-eyed when you said you wanted Jacob because it would be the most, did you say shameful or the most difficult?
The most hurtful, yeah.
The most hurtful. I'm just so impressed that you chose the most hurtful person first and the beautiful response. I'm cheerleading, I know, but you did such a great job.
Thank you. I almost think of David as the grandmaster and then Jacob as the master and I'm the pupil. So there are like lineages to this. Awesome.
So who do you want to attack you next?
Oh, yeah, David, could you please?
Yes. I know that you kind of polished off that, Jacob, but he's a bit of a junior guru. And it's not surprising that you barely squeaked by. But you will not be able to handle what I'm about to tell you because you'll know it's true. And that's because you don't know what you're talking about. And I'm judging you, and I'm judging you real bad. And I will spread the information as well.
Wow, that sounds really scary. I surely hope that I don't know everything about what I'm talking about. I really think it's important for me to have a learner mindset. I'm here for a good time, the behavioral training. I'm here to fail on my face and make a huge mess of it on stage in front of an audience. I hope I really don't know anything.
That way people can see how stupid I look and I will grow tremendously from that.
Okay, who won?
I felt like I won that one.
Big or small?
Felt big.
Big or huge?
I would say close to huge. It felt pretty good.
Okay, let's do a role reversal. Okay. Now I'll be the positive Michael and you can be the David, the feared fantasy monster.
Yeah, great. So, Michael, I know you're kind of hosting this event. I don't really know why.
Yes, I am.
Proudly and excitedly, too. Yeah, I don't really think you should be proud or excited because you really have no idea what you're talking about. You don't have that experience.
Yeah. Well, as a matter of fact, not only do I not know what I'm talking about about this, I don't know what I'm talking about about most things. Once you get to know me, you'll see that there's a lot more holes in my armor than you might have suspected. But when you say I don't know what I'm talking about about social anxiety, can you tell me what you're referring to?
Because I can learn from you and and study up on what I don't know what I'm talking about. I certainly know the experience of social anxiety since I've had it to a crippling degree ever since I was a little boy. So what is the part where I don't know what I'm talking about?
You certainly don't know how to teach social anxiety. It wouldn't be a good idea for you to teach. You should let someone else do that because you don't have any experience.
Well, I'm glad Jacob's going to be there because he's a pretty darn good teacher. But I was actually teaching this class the last two years and got rave reviews. And so even though I don't know how to teach – I'm blessed because the people who come to the workshop seem to have such low standards. They think I'm really helpful to them.
And so I accept that and I'm really glad to have that opportunity.
I love that response. I thought that was fantastic.
Okay, why?
I kind of felt like the weight of everything just disappeared. Yeah.
Yeah, and the two strategies I was using there are one, the acceptance paradox. That's my best fall to deal. That's one of my strongest helpful things for me. And then the second is be specific because shame and self-criticism can only sting when it's on that abstract level. And when you come down to be specific, well, what's something specific that I don't know about social anxiety?
I mean, there's so many things I don't know about it. What are you referring to? Is it the genetics, the membrane transport and certain neurons in the brain? What really is the part that I don't know about? Because there's so many parts I don't know about. Yeah. And for me, those two things are kind of a path to enlightenment. And I think Jill Levitt feels the same way.
She says that be specific can actually be a kind of – philosophy of life, really. And I feel that. And those things have been helpful to me, too, because I've struggled, as you know, both know, with so many forms of severe, crippling social anxiety. And also, social anxiety is the thing, I think, on this show that we get by far the strongest response to.
It seems like there's so many people watching right now who have strong social anxiety. And if we're talking to you and I am talking to you, I'm just bullshitting right now, but this workshop is for you and really check it out. Take a chance because these are two days that can change your life in ways that will be
So richly rewarding on so many levels to help you start connecting with people in a more loving and, as Jacob's been saying, a really fun way to transform your view and experience of other people from... dangerous dungeon to joyous playground with loving, open-hearted people. It's one of the greatest experiences a person can have to make that transformation.
And I can't imagine two more beautiful teachers than Jacob and Michael, and a third, Rhonda, who also brings so much
joy and love and and happiness to an otherwise deeply troubled world oh gosh thanks david i don't know if michael you want to respond back to david and do the or and because feared fantasy usually ends with the you know the person who has the fear finished do you want to do that
Yeah, yeah. So we'll finish it off with the final role reversal. But the fact is, Michael, and you better admit this, because you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. And I'm an expert. I'm a big time expert.
It's true, David. You are the ultimate expert. Can you be a little bit more specific? What exactly do I not know what I'm talking about?
Yeah.
It's too easy now. Okay. You're up to bat, Rhonda.
Oh, should we continue the Feared Fantasy?
There's one thought left. You're not in the right place.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, Michael, it's so hard to say this and I feel really bad, but the truth is you're just not in the right place.
You're on the wrong podcast. Yeah, I'm on the wrong podcast. Wow. Well, I'm certainly here. Can you tell me what would be the right podcast for me then? I'm kind of confused.
Oh, wow. And then, so, Michael, how do you feel about that answer? Do you feel like you won that?
I felt like it was a redirection.
A redirection? Uh-huh. Was the redirection big or small?
It was big.
Big or huge even?
Big, huge.
Big, huge. Should we do a role reversal on this one too?
I'm feeling pretty comfortable. My anxiety's actually gone to quite little now, now that we've kind of put in the middle of things and things are good. Okay, great.
Let's hit Rhonda. Let's see how she handles it. Maybe we can make Rhonda anxious.
I thought you already are. Sure.
So, um, so Rhonda, I just wanted to let you know that you're not in the right place here. You're on the wrong podcast.
Oh gosh. I have that feeling so frequently. Um, um, yeah, well, gee, that does, that makes me feel even more anxious to hear you say that I'm on the wrong podcast. I've been thinking about that all morning that I don't deserve to be on this podcast. And, um, So I have to say, you know, you're, you know, you're right.
I don't deserve to be on the podcast, but you know, David and Jacob's standards are so low there. For some reason, they just are letting me on.
Love that. So Rhonda, let me ask you who won that interaction, me or you?
I think I won that and I felt comfortable with it. So I think I won it huge.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. So you want to finish it off, Michael? Sure. Okay. You know, sadly, Michael, you are not in the right place and you're on the wrong podcast.
Yeah, I agree. This is definitely an extraordinary place to be. I feel very privileged to be here. It's definitely not for everyone's opportunity to be able to sit on a podcast with Jacob and David and Rhonda. I don't really care if I'm not allowed to be here or not. Guess what? I'm actually still here and I'm talking to the listeners of the Feeling Good podcast. So say what you want.
I don't really care. And who won that one? I feel like I won that one and it felt pretty huge. Awesome.
And this is just one of a large number of techniques you'll be learning in this two-day workshop. But the idea here is very simple, just to summarize, because sometimes these techniques seem sophisticated and people say, well, what's going on? What is this all about?
But what it's all about is that you, Michael, were kind enough to share with us three thoughts that have sometimes created tremendous anxiety for you in social situations, I'd say. I don't know what I'm talking about. People will think I don't know what I'm talking about. They'll think I'm not in the right place.
They'll think I'm kind of a fraud for trying to help out in the social anxiety workshop, but I myself have been afflicted with social anxiety since I was a child. And if you're just thinking about those things on your own, think, oh, this is what people are thinking about me, that's not going to do you much good. And then you can ask people, are you thinking this about me?
And they'll say, oh, no, I don't think that about you. But that won't do you much good either because you'll think, oh, they're just telling me what I want to hear. You know, they won't be honest.
But with this technique, you can really kind of hit the ball out of the park and see that if there was a universe, an alternative universe, where people really have these negative thoughts about you and got up in your face and said them, you could easily – handle that, you know, to see that the absurdity is not with the one who's being criticized, but with these critics.
But as you had said earlier, and so wisely, Jacob, experiencing is 100% and book learning is about 0% value. And so it's doing these kinds of exercises in a workshop and beginning suddenly to experience yourself and others in a radically different way.
And that's what's always been viewed as a kind of miracle, not a miracle in the sense that you're going to float in the air, but you'll feel like you're floating in the air.
toward the end of the workshop, because a lot of your burdens will be lifted and you'll feel lighter at the gut level and feeling like you have what it takes to get close to people and to develop connections, both superficial and then deeper, more vulnerable and meaningful connections.
Yeah, well said, David. Thank you. And one thing that I forgot to say earlier, but I think is worth saying is that I think one of the many challenges of social anxiety is people often feel very alone and very lonely with it.
And they think, oh, maybe I'm one of the only people that's struggling with worrying that other people are judging me or comparing myself unfavorably to others or feeling very nervous in social situations.
Literally just today, this morning, before I came on with you guys, I had a wonderful college age student who not only had social anxiety, but felt very alone with it and thought maybe her parents challenges were unique. And when you get 100 people in a room together who all have shyness and or social anxiety, it becomes apparent very quickly that you are not the only person struggling with this.
Everyone there is struggling with the same thing. So it helps to very quickly reduce stigma. It helps people not feel lonely with it. People just look around and everyone's dealing with the same challenges. So it very quickly kind of normalizes these are common things people struggle with and we can all together help each other feel better with it.
You've done a lot of work in this area yourself, Jacob, and have probably experienced the terror at first of going outside of your orbit where you're comfortable. And I know you've done a lot of crazy and wild and fantastic things in your life. And because of your love for this problem is one of the reasons you put on this fantastic costume. two-day workshop every year.
But have you had to pay a price to become outgoing and to overcome your fears and insecurities, Jacob?
Yeah, I have. I have had to pay a price. I will confess, I think I was just very fortunate to be born with a brain that had a certain amount of comfort, kind of being gregarious and social early on. But you, David, have helped me to push myself to be even more kind of wild and outgoing and take risks that I normally wouldn't.
And it's paid off tremendously, but I do have to kind of re up on it to not lose it. So for example, last week I was in Norway, I was in Tromsø, Norway, chasing the Northern lights. And I flew there by myself. It had been a long time since I'd flown somewhere internationally, just for a solo vacation.
And about halfway through the trip, I went to this bar by myself and I was sitting there having a drink. And I was feeling a little lonely. And then this group of maybe four or five people walked in and they looked like they were locals and they were sitting maybe 10 feet from me. And I thought, why not just take a chance and go talk to them? Like, what have I got to lose?
The worst case scenario is they reject me and I'm back to where I am now. Like, who cares? So I just walked up to them and I said, you know, I feel a little embarrassed to say this, but I'm traveling by myself. And I was wondering if you guys, if I could join you. And they said yes. What was the expression? He said something. It was a Norwegian expression.
He said something like, knock yourself down before I knock you or something like that, which meant like sit down before I punch you in the face and knock you out. I was like, sure. I prefer the sit down option. So I sat down and they were so great. They were they were it turned out they were. psychology students studying for their doctoral level. And they just presented their theses.
And then like four or five more people came and we had this big crew of like nine or 10 people. I was there with them for hours and they were teaching me about Norwegian history and Norwegian culture and politics. And we were talking and comparing about America, talking about life. And it was so fun.
I was there with them for hours and I would have never had that enjoyable experience if I had not taken the chance of approaching them and seeing if I can join them. And they ended up being super friendly and welcoming.
How cool is that? And wasn't I the one who told you 10 years ago, Jacob, that all your effort learning Norwegian would one day pay off?
Exactly.
That's a beautiful story. That is so great, Jacob. What a heartwarming thing. I have maybe one last question for you. I remember last couple of years when people register, they have to give something like $12 or something, $20 or something to a client. foundation of your choice. Is that still a part of the registration process? And if so, tell us how that works.
Yeah. So if people go to finding humans, less scary.com, Michael has created an incredible, pretty simple registration process. And, um, um, so it doubles as a fundraiser. I think last year we raised several thousand dollars for various charities, um, We've allowed the option people can donate to various different charities.
I think there's Save the Children, and there's one to reduce gun violence, and there's one to support people in Ukraine. There is one to support other charities that do effective work like in Africa. People have a variety of options. And then part of why we're having people pay $20 is then if they're ambivalent about showing up on the first day, they can think, well, I've already paid $20.
I might as well show up since I paid for it. So we want people to actually show up if they've reserved a spot. So that's part of why we do it. But we like to think that $20 is a pretty affordable rate for getting something like 16 plus hours of hopefully fantastic content. That's more than a dollar an hour. We can be pretty pricey here in Palo Alto. Sometimes we're up to $2 an hour.
Yeah. And how much will it be worth to them at the end of the conference?
We're hoping that we're going to be offering like $10,000 to $20,000 worth of experience to every single person. So that's what we're aiming for.
How about a millionth?
For some people, I hope they get a million or even $10 million worth of value out of it.
Yeah, worth of joy and happiness and intimacy and connection and getting out of prison, the prison that we create with all of our negative thoughts and self-doubts and belief that we're not good enough. But what, Jacob, what if we discover that we're not good enough? What then?
Then I would say, I don't even know what that means. I don't even understand the premise. What does that mean that you're not good enough? As you yourself, David, have said, well, if you're not good enough, does that mean that they won't serve you a coffee at Starbucks? Or does that mean they won't let you get on the bus? What does it mean if you're not good enough? What happens?
So I don't even understand the concept of not being good enough.
Yeah, that's right. But you'll get these things at the gut level. You'll understand them, not just intellectually, but emotionally, and see what that little joke actually means. It's a very profound spiritual, really, concept, philosophical and spiritual and experiential concept. So the program, to spell it out, and we'll have the links and the show notes for you,
But if you want to just go and register now, which I strongly recommend in case they get sold out, this is the early point. So you have a chance to get seating. It's findinghumanslessscary.com. And you can register there, and all you have to do is make a $20 donation to the foundation of your choice.
I presume these are tax-free foundations, so you can probably even get a tax write-off and bring your hourly charge. Yeah, you can save $6. Yeah, down to about 60 cents an hour for some world class, not just psychotherapy, but experiential exercises, both in the auditorium and out with people out on the streets, interacting with real people and discovering things.
at the gut level, that humans really are less scary. And I can't imagine two more brilliant psychiatrists and loving, practical, helpful, committed people than Michael Luau and Jacob Towery. So we are so grateful to have you two guys here on the surface of the earth where so much war and hatred is spreading.
It seems so fast to have this kind of island of joy and tears and laughter and warmth and learning and growth. And that's going to be March 29th and 30th. That's a Saturday and Sunday from 9.30 a.m. to 5.30 p.m. And this will be two days that will change your life. And you'll be reborn in a way because you'll suddenly see and experience a world that you didn't know existed.
I love that, David. Go ahead, Rhonda.
I was going to say, David, you really hit the head on the nail when you said people leave this workshop full of joy and kind of on a high after all of the experiences that they've gone through. And it's just really a pleasure to be a part of.
Thank you for reminding everyone that David did, in fact, hit his head on a nail. Okay. Okay. David, you hit your head on a nail. Well, you don't have to rub it in, Rhonda. I may be old.
Okay, Jacob, you have the final word.
I want to say one more quick thing because David inspired me to talk about this, but at the risk of getting a little political, I would argue that the vast majority of violence in the world is
comes down to people seeing people as other or different than they are and somehow inferior subhuman and worthy of being treated poorly or even violently yeah i think that's horrible and i think that's the source of much suffering that exists on the planet and if instead i'm not saying this would be easy i think this would be very difficult if each of us individually
we're willing to, there's a motivational factor, but if we were willing to and able to learn how to see other people as ultimately very similar to us and worthy of love and respect and fundamentally very similar to ourselves, then it would feel absurd to go out and want to murder someone because that would be horrible.
We'd be like killing someone who's similar to us, who shares many of our same values and has had many similar experiences. And that would be atrocious because
So I wish for as many people as possible to join this – again, I mean it's going to sound kind of cheesy, but this idea of seeing people with love and kindness and respect and treating people that way and having a much more peaceful, loving world than – the way it can sometimes be.
Yeah. And seeing others less scary also has to do with the fact that when you're seeing others as different and scary, that also is what leads to war. Yes. It's not just the labeling of others, but to seeing them as dangerous and different. Exactly. Exactly. And not as humans, not humans. someone to be loved and respected.
But that'll be a podcast for another day because it's another huge and incredibly important problem. And we're going to leave the last words here, which are going to be mind-blowing and extraordinarily important, to Michael.
I was ready for that one.
Yeah.
So on March 29th and March 30th, it will be a super fun and dynamic workshop dedicated to treating social anxiety. If you're someone who is not really sure how to have a deeper conversation and sometimes you struggle with small talk, if you have fear around dating or public speaking, or maybe you're just craving more deeper connections with people...
We welcome you to please sign up on the website, fightinghumanslessscary.com. We'd love to have you. Yeah, it will be a miraculously amazing event and results are not guaranteed, but also guaranteed.
Okay. Well said. Yes.
Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thanks for having us. This was fun.
Thank you all for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed the podcast today.
This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.