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Chapter 1: What is the introduction to the episode and topic?
What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Lights Out. I'm your host, Josh. And I'm your host, Austin. And I'm the producer, Daniel. Today, we're covering a topic that all of us, I think, find very interesting.
This might be... This is top three episodes for researching for me that I've had the most fun researching.
Dude, I agree. Sleepwalking, for one, is just an interesting thing. Why? by itself yes and it's something for thousands of years we've all been trying to figure out like what's going on here yeah what is this about but then to add in the element of sleepwalkers that end up murdering people it's a whole other yeah can of worms and then trying to convince a jury that that is even possible
That this person did not know what they were doing because they were still asleep when they brutally murdered, usually their loved one too. A partner, a child. I mean, it is, it's such a bizarre thing. that it's really hard to wrap your head around. They still don't fully understand what's going on, why it happens. There's a lot of theories.
There's obviously some science behind the sleep cycles and what's going on there. But how does one who has potentially been sleepwalking for a long time all of a sudden during an episode of sleepwalking just snap and then murder somebody? Right. And why?
Yeah, often they don't have motives. They can't find motives for these crimes. Typically you don't have to supply a motive though to convict someone, but that's the weirdest part. They're like, we have no idea why this person would do something like this in a lot of these cases. So we'll be covering a few this episode.
I think we have three cases we'll go over and kind of break down and then we'll get into the studies as well. Yeah, just sleepwalking in general. Yeah, just to try and wrap our heads around what exactly is going on.
Yeah, this topic is, it's very interesting because I personally, as far as I know, I've never sleepwalked. Are you a sleepwalker?
No.
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Chapter 2: What are the details of Scott Flader's sleepwalking murder case?
And they're just kind of like, they'll look at you, but they don't see you. They look straight through you. It is kind of scary. It is. But we ended up just sending him right back to bed. He went back to bed and everything was fine.
Yeah. And like 99% of the time, it's not a big deal. I mean, tons of people, I know there's tons of viral TikToks of sleepwalkers that are pretty wild when they go out, they literally leave the house and they're like walking dog down the street and stuff.
But just this whole, whole phenomenon is, is really wild, but specifically what causes somebody to then escalate to this aggressive state where they proceed to murder somebody and oftentimes stab somebody multiple times. I mean, it's just like when there is no history of that sort of behavior before.
No.
And no motive to do something like this.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that's what we're going to dive into today, which I'm very, yeah, I'm interested to hear if anybody out there has any experiences with sleepwalking personally. And I mean, hopefully nobody has any direct experiences with homicidal somnambulism. Let me say it again. Somnambulism is the term. scientific word, I believe, for sleepwalking. Right, right.
I only knew that because Gene Wolfe, he likes to use all these crazy old antiquated. Yeah, he's got all sorts of crazy stuff. You've probably heard from Ian around a mile higher, but yeah. I was like, he called someone a somnambulist, and I'm like, what is that?
I've never heard of that word before.
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Chapter 3: How was the sleepwalking defense used in Scott Flader's trial?
And he really did all this while still asleep.
Right. So we're considering the stabbing, the dragging to the pool, the drowning, then the Going and cleaning yourself up, taking your clothes off, putting your gear back in the car, and then bandaging a wound. That's a lot of stuff.
What a lot of people point out, when his wife is screaming, it didn't wake him up. Yeah. At what point did he actually wake up or did he not at all? I mean, that's a tough part to prove, right? Prosecutor Juan Martinez's main argument was that Scott's actions were too deliberate for him to have been sleeping.
And jurors soon became overwhelmed at the number of sleep experts that were brought in to testify. One of the prominent experts, as we mentioned, Dr. Broughton, admitted that to do as many specific and complicated actions as Scott had was unusual. including committing a violent crime, hiding the evidence, and changing his clothes.
Because it seems to insinuate that at some point he realized what he had done was wrong. But could have that still been in that sleepwalking state?
So here's my idea. If he's still in this routine to go fix the pool... If he's doing something and he has the tool, which allegedly is this knife that he was trying to pop an O-ring off. So he's going to the pool. Then he's a part of that routine to then, oh, he might be a little bit dirty from the work.
So he's going to go shower and then he's going to return the, his work clothes and his tools to the location in his car. Like that would be a part of the routine of him fixing the pool. And it just so happened that there was this crazy horrific murder in between the routine. I don't know.
It feels far-fetched, right? Very, very far-fetched. But if he was awake and he was trying to you know, cover up the crime or hide evidence, you would have thought he would have wiped the blood off, make sure to get all the blood off of him. But he didn't remember he's in interrogation. He's still got blood on the back of his neck.
Yeah. You think you couldn't miss that too. If, if you go on like shower. So that also makes me think if you just committed a murder, wouldn't you be like hyper paranoid if you had like any more blood on you to make sure you wipe it all off?
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Chapter 4: What was the jury's verdict and reaction in Scott Flader's case?
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Yeah. They just do it all the time. I need to get back into it, but this might be a good reason to.
There you go.
Because that thinning might be stress-induced. Exactly. So maybe we just need to return to our center. Reduce the stress. Yeah.
Just reduce that stress.
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Chapter 5: How does sleepwalking work and why is it significant in legal cases?
Yeah. I mean, I, I don't even know that I've ever tried Ambien before. Yeah. It scares me. I just, if I had, it was like a tiny, tiny bit, but I've, I've no people who have. And when, when you take enough of that, I mean, you can, you know, just subtract a few days from, yeah. From your life. Cause it's just, it's like a complete blur. Yeah.
And I think there's somebody in the office, but I don't want a HIPAA violation here, but I'll just say, uh, there's somebody, they were saying, if you take Ambien, make sure you're like in bed, ready to go to sleep because they think at least that it's when you take the medication, but you're not fully like going to bed or in bed that if you're in the kitchen doing something, all of a sudden you fall asleep and then you're sleepwalking.
Yeah. So don't, don't eat, don't deep fry that chicken while you're on. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's... There's so many things, though. Yeah, a lot of factors. Many studies into parasomnias are relatively new in the field of sleep medicine. For example, REM sleep behavior disorder wasn't officially identified until 1986, but even though some of the research is fairly new...
Parasomnias are not rare at all. Sleep medicine specialist Carlos Schenk from SFA and a professor of psychiatry at the University of Minnesota Medical School claims that millions of Americans have some type of parasomnia. I believe it. I do too. Some people even climbed out of windows, driven for miles, and even had sexual affairs while sleeping. How do you explain that?
That sounds like a good cover.
Baby, I was sleeping though.
Come on, man.
I went to Sarah's house. She answered. I was clearly asleep.
Yeah. She invited me in. That's crazy. Also, that seems like we're in some ethically dubious area. If the other person is like, oh, it's their sleepwalking. Yeah. Can you consent while sleepwalking? I don't think you can. That's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah.
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Chapter 6: What are parasomnias and their implications?
I do want to point out, you know, to the, we're thinking that screaming would wake someone up. If you're not being woken up by, you're walking out in snow and you're frostbitten, you can't even feel pain, right? So I think there's just weird things going on up there that we're not registering properly. Yeah.
In another example the SFA investigated, a man had just gotten out of successful back surgery at the hospital and 12 hours later he was found dead outside wedged between a generator and a hospital wall six floors below the hospital rooftop. So the question was, had he jumped or was he pushed? Ultimately SFA concluded the answer was neither. He was sleepwalking and walked off of the roof.
but how did they figure that out? The autopsy showed that there were significant abrasions along the individual's back that indicated he fell straight down, and if he had jumped or was pushed, he wouldn't have fallen straight down. Investigators concluded he had walked upright, just straight off the ledge. That's crazy.
He was also barefoot, meaning he had walked willingly across the roof's layer of sharp stones, and since sleepwalkers cannot sense pain, This was how SFA argued the case. SFA also clarifies that moving while asleep is not always a form of technical sleepwalking.
For example, REM sleep behavior disorder, sometimes called RBD, occurs during rapid eye movement sleep, but sleepwalking occurs during the stage known as non-rapid eye movement. REM is the stage where we dream, and if you remember from our sleep paralysis episode, this also means that this is also when our body essentially paralyzes itself. Or it's supposed to.
It's a protective mechanism that keeps us and the people around us safe from our potential physical reactions to a dream. Which, I'm sure we've all had some violent dreams before. Sure. But Dr. Mahold and Shank reported that some people can leave the paralysis of REM sleep and then physically act out their dreams. I want to film myself sleeping. I want to know what I do.
I really want to do a sleep study.
I want to know what I'm doing while I'm sleeping. So it's like the REM sleep behavior disorder, not sleepwalking. It's another layer of sleep that we're still acting things out in.
So with all this said, if the part of the brain generating behaviors and actions is awake, but the part of the brain that can monitor and govern what we're doing and create memories is asleep, this is what can create really bizarre behaviors without the person being conscious. even murder.
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