Jason
Appearances
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
We crushed your questions. Admit it. We are giving people ground truth data to underwrite your own opinion. What do you guys think? That was fun. That was great.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
interesting kind of points of tension and conflict and behavioral shifts that maybe are undesirable or that are different than what we've had as a species in the past. And so much of like how we're wired, how our brains work in the context of modern technology, modern society is causing some behavioral system changes that maybe are a bit scary. Does that sound like a fair way to describe the art?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
I want to accumulate likes and views. And I want to come back to this point about status that you made earlier. And I want to kind of relate it to... human history as well, because it's really important to understand where that comes from, where does status as a desire come from?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
And so can you blame them, right? It was kind of like- This is my point about like instant access. I've always had this belief that the Zen Buddhists got it right. They always had it right. There are two key aspects of human nature that if you can address those, you solve all the world's problems, which is desire and dualism, dualistic thinking.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
And the aspect of desire that plays out in this context is I, at any given moment now, have access or can see, can create a desire for something that I would, if I was sitting in a village without a phone, I wouldn't have a desire to be on a private jet.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
But now I'm sitting on this phone, I'm seeing this funniest moment or this most beautiful person or this incredible experience that I am not a part of. I am not in, I don't get it. Instant desire creation for me.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
So the dopamine aspect, I also question as anticipatory because I think, I don't know if it was your book or some other research I've read about dopamine being released in anticipation, not necessarily in the satisfaction of acquisition. That the acquisition of something always feels a little bit Okay, I got it. Whereas the moment right before you get it, it's when you get the best opening.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
But I do think like this point about is status a point of desire, right? So I don't know that I want something until I see someone else with it. Like that becomes the notion of desire for me.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
And that plays into like I see someone with a million likes on their photo. I don't have a million likes on my photo. So I suddenly want that, like that creates a new emptiness in my spirit that didn't exist before, or in my brain that didn't exist before, that then I'm on this constant circuit looking for how do I do something that creates a million likes?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
Because that's something that others have that I don't have.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
But there's always been this notion of celebrity and kind of, you know, like this, the celebrity replaced the monarchy, replaced the church, whatever. But nowadays with the influencer culture, the celebrity is accessible, meaning I have access to being in that state. So it creates this deep, dark hole for me, at least this is my read on it, that I can't I'm not in that state, but I should be.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
I could be. Therefore, I have this deep emptiness because theoretically, I could be that person. It's not like there's a caste system. It's not like there's a monarchy where your blood determines whether or not you get to be a king or the church where the Lord determines whether you get to be in charge. In this case, someone got there, but I'm not there. So I get to see.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
And not only that, but my reference library historically was like four to six sitcoms a week. Now my reference library is four to six TikTok videos a minute. And I'm just like, suddenly there's all these different things that I don't have and statuses that I don't, that I haven't accumulated. Should we talk about...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
So from an institutional perspective, fair enough. Yeah. I thought about this deeply, like outside of the context of your book that, you know, humans in the last kind of century and a half have had this kind of industrial production thrust upon us, then digital media thrust upon us, and then open markets and globalization thrust upon us.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
I've got to imagine that the reaction has been amazing to anyone that's not gone through this problem as children, right? Like you, if you, have you, have you talked to the, um, the Gen Z about the proposal?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
What is the connection between Beams and Coddling of the American Mind and the Anxious Generation and what we see on college campuses recently. So can you comment on the protests, the recent activities on campus and maybe help us kind of understand, is there a difference or is this a continuation?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
So my previous book, The Coddling of the American Mind began when my friend- Which by the way, I gave a copy to everyone at our summit last year. So we gave away 1,800 copies of your book. It was my pick, yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
all of which give us kind of instant access to knowledge about the state of the world in a way that we've never had. Historically, humans maybe saw a family, maybe their village. It wasn't like mass communication, but with digital media, I can see the good life of someone on a private jet
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
1000 miles away, and I can live stream their private jet experience, I can theoretically order a Louis Vuitton bag and have it arrive in a couple of hours, if only I had the means that creates this kind of like tension, I can have any experience I want to because of the system of markets that have kind of put in place.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
This is my point about like dualistic thinking, like the whole core of like the Zen Buddhist approach is to get rid of the sides in a system. But can you talk a little bit about this oppressor oppressed concept and how critical it is to social behavior and now social evolution. I've thought a lot about this over the last year.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
And I feel like so much of human societal development, politics, purchasing behavior is all driven by this concept of oppressor and oppressed, which can be approximated as the haves and the have-nots. And at any given moment, I can feel like a have-not to some other have. And theoretically, I'm a have to someone else who's a have-not.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
My have not identity drives me to purchasing, to getting likes on Facebook, to changing who's in office, to deciding which company I should spend money on and which company I should not spend money on. And that this notion extends its way into feeling oppressed, meaning there's a system in place that's keeping me from having something that someone else has.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
And maybe you can talk a little bit about has this changed? Has this always been in human psychology? Is this changing because of modernity and why? would be great.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
And I think like historically took generations for things like the Bible or the Quran or monarchical systems to kind of permeate and, you know, kind of make society believe a certain system. But now you can kind of pump the right message to someone and shift their brain and things change quite considerably.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
No, it seems accurate. Giving the pendulum is shifting. What do you see broadly socially right now? Are we still in this loop where we are creating oppressor
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
oppressed kind of constructs perpetuating policy or are folks in the left saying it's gone too far it's time to make a change now folks are feeling because i've seen a lot of folks that have traditionally been i'm not a i'm not a politics guy i'm not a in a political party or anything
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
But I've seen like a lot of folks who I know who are traditionally Democratic voters, Democrat voters who are now Republican voters after what's happened over the last couple of years. Surprisingly, shockingly, would have never sworn that would have been the case 10 years ago. Are things changing now? Is that sort of shift going to be what pulls things policy-wise the other way?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
Just subtly racist. Can you talk a little bit about what traditional liberalism and conservatism should look looks like? Because a lot of people in our public audience, a lot of people I talk to, they're confused now about the terms because so much of traditional liberalism feels illiberal because of your point about far left behavior.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
Traditional conservatism feels illiberal because of far right behavior. What is the difference between the two and kind of help us bring balance to the force?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
The first industrial revolution, yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
A lot of people discard it. They don't pay as much attention to it. It's not that big compared to what's happening now.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
I think that was such an excellent commentary for people to hear. I want to ask one follow-on, which is, why has liberalism and conservatism in some aspects switched? One of the things I think a lot of folks observe is that modern liberalism
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
is a lot of redistribution, equality for the oppressed, bring everyone up to the same outcome, the same level on an outcome basis, which limits the freedom and flexibility of others. It limits free markets, for example. You know, more taxes, more regulations is one way to characterize that, that conservatives will say. More taxes and more regulation is not John Stuart Mill.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
It's not more free market enablement. And then on the flip side, this idea of conservatives want to have less government, less regulation, less taxes, which can drive more inequality of outcome, et cetera, can drive, in fact, Fundamentally, and I believe this very deeply, free markets drive progress, technological progress and social progress.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
And as a result, by getting technology out, the most disempowered benefit the most by new technology. They can progress more than the wealthy can progress. And so why has that flipped? Why is conservatism and liberalism in some aspects flipped? And when did that happen?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
Can we do some quick lightning round questions on parenting? So my kids are, I got three daughters under seven. There's a conversation amongst the parents. When do you let the kids get phones? When do you let them get on social media? And some of the parents don't listen. So then the kid, you got a couple of kids in the class that are on social media. They're on iPhones.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
It's fifth grade, fourth grade, whatever. And the kids that aren't are the have-nots. They're left out. They're not able to be on the text screen with the kids that are. So they're not cool. They're socially disengaged. They're angry at their parents. They're sad. How do you address that as a parent?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
where you've got some of the kids in the class that are doing this, given the framing you provided earlier on the best rules.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
But then if some of the parents don't agree, and then you've got this class system that forms amongst the social, you know, groups of the kids, you got some kids that are, that have this. You just hold the line.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
Very flat. Yeah, very flat. Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
Yeah, variable rewards.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
Can you just hit on why, from an evolutionary biology perspective, we are wired this way? What is the wiring that's being tapped into here?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
It's great to have you, John. Thanks for joining us. I know you've done a lot of media lately, and a lot of it has focused on the anxious generation, which has obviously got some really important topical conversations embedded within it and that people are now having because of it. I first read the happiness hypothesis years ago.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jonathan Haidt | The All-In Interview
In fact, in one of our first episodes of the All In pod back in 2020, I referenced it and I referenced some material from the happiness hypothesis. my general take on the themes of your work is evolutionary biology meets modernity. Does that sound like a reasonable take that the nature of the human being in a modern age causes these really
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon Musk | All-In Summit 2024
Thanks for taking the time.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon Musk | All-In Summit 2024
Yeah, what are we doing?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon Musk | All-In Summit 2024
Got it. Next to the ocean. Next to the ocean. Because there's a little bit of water there too.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Professor Mirsham, if we were to take Jeffrey's position here that we are exerting power for the sake of our reputation and, in fact, to weaken dictatorships, if I'm summarizing correctly here, is that not a good strategy to weaken dictators around the world who might like to invade other countries?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Is there a framing in which you could see that being for a world where democracy and people living freely has gone down in our lifetimes? Is that not noble? Is there not a justification somebody could make for it? I'm not saying I have that, but I'm just trying to steal me on the other side of this. Is weakening dictators and despots a good strategy? It depends.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Well, let's talk about the two that we have, you know, Xi Jinping. I think you wanted to get to eventually. And then Ukraine and Putin. Are these people worth trying to, you know, contain or even weaken?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
OK, so containment check.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
So you gave him a B? Or B plus? A minus.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
They do seem to have a big interest, Jeff, in Africa, India, Russia. And they are.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
China has a major interest.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Well, they're building nuclear power plants in trade and they're building debt loads with those countries.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
There is one player on this chessboard that hasn't come up yet. And maybe we could skate to where the puck is going. You know, when you talk about the South China Sea, OK, sure, South Korea, Japan, Australia, all of those major players there, they're just a couple of hundred million people. But then China is in population decline. Xi apparently is self-destructing in terms of trade.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Seems like containment is working pretty well there because of the all the self-inflicted wounds But the fastest growing country the fastest growing economy the quickest to develop is India and they seem to have a very pragmatic approach Hey, they'll buy cheap oil from Putin and they are their own sovereign country with their own point of view Would we not be really well advised over the next 10 to 20 years to make that our priority and India's role in this?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
How do you look at them?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
But Jeffrey, if they were making our iPhones.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Jeffrey, we're making our iPhones in India now. Is that not significantly important? Say it again. We're moving iPhone production. Cooper, maybe Cooper, you're into economics here and that impact. You got Apple moving out of China. You've got Japan funding people leaving China to Vietnam and to India. Is that not the solution here as we decouple from China?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
It seems like they come back to the table. We had Xi Jinping kick all the venture capitalists, all investment out of China. He got rid of all the education startups. And then whatever, two or three years later, he's in San Francisco asking all of us to invest more money and say, where'd you go?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
It seems like there's a lot of self-inflicted wounds.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
This is the best panel I've ever been on in my life. Can we just add ten minutes? We've got to add five or ten minutes. Is this the best panel ever?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
On that note, thank you. Let me just say, Jeffrey and John, now I know why Sachs will not stop talking about you two. This was the most amazing panel of the event so far. Give it up for Jeffrey Sachs and John Mearsheimer.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Professor Mearsheimer, I... When we talk about power, there are other people in the world who are trying to accumulate power. We live in a multipolar world right now, and they have, in some cases, very nefarious or bad intent, and they do not have democracy. So it's one thing to tell people in Afghanistan, you need to evolve to be a perfect democracy like the one we have here.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
I think we all agree that's unrealistic and insane and not practical. But what about the free countries of the world uniting together to stop dictators from invading other free countries? Is that noble? Is that a good use of power and a good framework for America to evolve to?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
What I'm proposing is when dictatorships invade other countries, then we take action.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Maybe defend them. It depends. Yeah, of course.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
No, I would say diplomacy would obviously be what we'd want to exhaust, but if they do roll into other free countries, I think there's an argument for the free countries of the world to get together and say, two dictators, we're not gonna allow this.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
OpenAI's $150B conversion, Meta's AR glasses, Blue-collar boom, Risk of nuclear war
Yes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
OpenAI's $150B conversion, Meta's AR glasses, Blue-collar boom, Risk of nuclear war
Delaware.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Big Fed rate cuts, AI killing call centers, $50B govt boondoggle, VC's rough years, Trump/Kamala
Yes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Big Fed rate cuts, AI killing call centers, $50B govt boondoggle, VC's rough years, Trump/Kamala
has gone crazy with it. Love you, Wes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And so the reason this is so important is because these things cost a lot of money. And when they land here, you can clean them up. And I guess his goal is to have them take off again after he fills them with propellant an hour later, Friedberg. So on a science basis, this is extraordinary. If this works and you can start lifting these rockets.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I think we should all be in Mar-a-Lago.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Oh my God. Can you imagine being in Mar-a-Lago and he loses?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah, it's going to be amazing. And they're going to do some, I guess, new stuff with Starlink, some even lower Earth orbit satellites that go even faster and have less latency. So that's going to be super exciting.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
It could be the largest subscription business in the history of humanity. I think the largest ones right now are like Netflix, you know, 250,000. Disney Plus, 150, Verizon, 100 million. So yeah, it could be hundreds of millions of subscribers. It could even be the first 500 million subscriber product in the world.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah, obviously. It's crazy.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Chamath, any thoughts on the robo van or the A cyber cab, the Model 2, I guess some people are calling it, but it's, you know, the cyber cab specifically not calling it number two and doesn't have a steering wheel or pedals. I would have bought two of those immediately if it had a steering wheel and pedals. I want to drive it. Yeah, it looks like the hybrid of like a Model Y and the Cybertruck.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
So I kind of really love the aesthetics of it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah, you like it?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Well, in fairness, he did hurt some people's feelings with posting of memes. So yeah, I mean, it's, it makes no sense. Like the guy's like gonna save 30,000 road debts a year in the United States with self-driving and people are losing their minds over a couple of memes or who he's voting for for president. I don't think you have to worry about that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
You can just look at the products, they speak for themselves. Anything, Sachs, any response on the Tesla front? Any thoughts on the bus or Optimus?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah. I love the bus, Freebird. I think that thing could become like mobile homes are, you know, ADUs, and you could just send them to... Can we buy them or no? Well, no, not right now, but I think that might be, you know, that's going to be a big question.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah. Well, see, if this was a platform like the Mercedes Sprinter vans have become that you see a lot in Europe, then you could buy an empty one of these. It's got enough battery life to last a month. And then let's say you had your in-laws over and there was one that was set up as like a one bedroom.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
You could click on Airbnb or, you know, Tesla BNB, press a button and the thing could drive to your driveway. You could rent it for a week and then it could leave. Or let's say 1,000 people or 10,000 people were displaced because of a hurricane free bird.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
You could send 100,000 of these to the parking lots at Walmart, which typically does a good job in feeding people and getting them supplies after hurricanes, since those are so ubiquitous. You could put 100 of these in every parking lot and have a place for people who are fleeing natural disasters to stay.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
So I thought that was like the most compelling product of the whole thing for me was the possibility of a sled, like a skiff that you could do anything you want with. would be really exciting for society. So congratulations to the team. And it's going to take a while, but I could see them having that robo-taxi.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I saw that. He's in charge of all AI?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Oh, okay. Well, there it is.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Oh, you did?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And are you using the FSD? I use FSD every day.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah, that's...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
With all of my Teslas, I put it in chill mode because when it's in that Plaid mode or whatever, like coffee goes fine.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
But if you have passengers, the kids in the backseat would get literally nauseous because it's too fast. You got to be careful with the passengers there. It's so fast.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
All right. Well, there you have it. Robo Taxi Star. We didn't get to it last week. We almost put the show back a day or two just to do it. In other news, Uber is exploring a bid to purchase Expedia. Breaking news. This was dispelled as we got here on the show. They said this was like very preliminary third party talks and that there's no serious talks going on about this.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Financial Times reported that that advisors were trying to look at if a deal structure would be possible between Uber and Expedia. Expedia's got a $20 billion market cap. They popped 8% on the news, obviously. Uber, on the other hand, trading at $170 billion market cap or so. That dropped 3%. If you didn't know, Dara was the CEO of Expedia from 2005 to 2017. He's still on the board.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And it looks like this was a trial balloon. You know Uber's two biggest businesses, Rides and Uber Eats, but they also do freight and train bookings. Dara's been pretty clear he wants to create a super app like you have in China or some other markets.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Expedia's got a lot of cool products, Hotels.com, Orbitz, Travelocity, and I think the most interesting one, Freiburg, you and I were talking about, this is VRBO, Vacation Rental by Owner. It was like Airbnb before Airbnb existed. And if you look at this chart, since Dara left, the Dara effect, Expedia has gone exactly sideways. The revenue has grown modestly. What do you think of this deal?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Chamath, I'll just go right to you with this one, since you like to... Stupid. Stupid. Okay. There you have it, folks. Reason number one, it's stupid. And reason number two, it's stupid.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I would agree with you. And there's other things they could buy, like WeRide or Pony AI and a bunch of these AI companies that are doing self-driving. So why not double down on that? Freeburg, the one thing you and I talked about was kind of VRBO, which is a very cool marketplace. And that feels directly in the Uber kill zone.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
What do you think about them just maybe carving out and buying VRBO and having an Airbnb?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I think that's what's going to happen. I've been hearing rumblings of that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yep.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
There are a large number of people who maybe don't have a, you know, an assistant to book their hotels in advance. And like that would be most people, J. Calhoun.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Well, no, but they already have a hotels.com partnership. And then the Uber One membership's been growing pretty nicely. And the advertising's doing a billion dollars a year. And that is just a money printing machine because you know that this person's in an Uber Black. You know that they're going to the Four Seasons. Like these users who are, you know,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Uber Eats is working pretty well. It's working great. Yeah, the cross promotion is working.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I think the hotel's integration is good.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah, the thing that I've talked to Dara about is when they said he told me when they do something that's adjacent to what they're already doing, it explodes in terms of engagement. So like, they're doing like teens and rental cars, and then package delivery. And every time they do one of those adjacencies, it just takes off with the membership.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And to your point, Freeberg, they have those 150 customers who have their credit cards in there. And man, it's explosive. So that's what I think they're doing.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I think hotels would be. I don't think flights would be because I think the flights work really well with the existing apps. But things where you have proprietary inventory like VRBO or hotels, I think those would be very powerful. And those have 20%, 30% commissions, which are in line with the commission's
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
That Uber's already getting and the commissions on things like flights is very small, like a couple of dollars. So I think for hotels and VRBO would be brilliant. For the other stuff, I'm not so sure. To your point, Chamath.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Well, the thing I, you know, I would, the counter I would give to this.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I use the Bomboy app to book hotels. I use United to book my flights and I use Uber to do my rides and obviously for Eats. When you are using it, there's a tab up top. And the UI is quite nice in Uber where it's rides and eats right next to each other. I could see a third one like hotels or travel being right there. And all of a sudden, yum, yum, you just get all that inventory right in there.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And I frequently will book my hotel and I'll book my ride for the next day in advance on Uber. And I do those things. And then when I get to my hotel, I'm ordering food to my room. So I think this actually could work really well as a third tab in the app for travel. And you could actually because when you use eats in the Uber app, it's its own tab. And it's the exact same experience.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I believe in super apps. And they just launched a bus that's like a bus service in New York for 18 bucks to go to JFK. That's really awesome. I think we're a little bit disconnected because we don't book our own travel. But okay, let's keep moving here. Down the docket. All right, this big tech investing in nuclear power is off to the races.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Amazon just announced a $500 million investment in three nuclear power projects. All of these are focused on SMRs. Those are the small modular reactors. Amazon is working with dominion energy to develop a small modular nuclear reactor. near an existing nuclear power plant in Virginia. In total, Amazon plans to invest $35 billion in Virginia-based data centers by 2040.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And they want to power these by SMRs. And this is a big trend. Google is purchasing energy directly from Kairos. Power, another company building SMRs. Microsoft, as you heard, is reviving one of the Three Mile Island nuclear power plants. So this is kind of interesting, Shabab. We went from...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Nuclear not being on the table, everybody being against it, the Germans shutting down their reactors post-Fukushima. And now big tech is the customer for these with AI, and they're putting down very large deposits and payments to build them in America. And I haven't heard any opposition.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Maybe you could just speak to Chamath, what we've seen here in terms of opposition to these versus the opportunity and everybody's writing checks.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Freeberg, your thoughts on SMRs and these customers showing up? And then I guess you could comment on the nature of the deal structure here, because some of them are you know, contingent on the nuclear power plant turning on. Some of them do have deposits, is my understanding. We'll look that up and fact check it. There could be a range of deals here.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Sacks, if we are able to get a bunch of these SMRs built here in the United States, maybe if Europe follows suit, what would this do on a geopolitical basis into our relationship with the Middle East, our energy independence, and of course, the AI race to you know, general intelligence. I'll let you take it whichever direction you want to go.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
It is the chocolate. I mean, I like the mocha. This one's chocolate. Okay. Mocha's good, too. All right.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
So you think they'll get blocked by local communities?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Your take on a non-binary trans lesbian with purple hair. Whatever you're saying, no comment. Putting a small nuclear reactor 200 miles outside of Austin, Texas. Go. Put your tinfoil hat on.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I mean, I think there's plenty of land outside of the triangle here in Texas where there is no density and you could put one and I'd have no problem with there being one a hundred miles, 200 miles.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I mean, literally you would have to, it doesn't take that many people to service these. So yeah. I mean, I think there's plenty of space in the United States to put these and maybe Freebird, you could talk and educate us. on the safety here. Do you believe what Sachs is saying, that it's going to have a meltdown and he doesn't believe it?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Tell us from a science perspective.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
So you believe they will go through out of necessity? That's your take.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Would a possible solution be to give an economic incentive to the people who would be in the surrounding areas?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Obviously, these things could be 50 or 100 miles from, you know, anybody's homes, but even the people who work there or people who might have, I don't know, some homes that were near it, could you give them no taxes, etc, etc, essentially give them incentives to allow this to go through Friedberg in your mind? Do you think that kind of incentive would work? taxes or some kind of payoff or subsidy?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
There's no filibustering there, right? Well, no, he's crisp in his answers.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Let's do it. Let's do it right now. I mean, I think this is an important discussion.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
It's a great... Adversarial point, let's go to the facts.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Of course, of course, of course.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And if you just put these things 50 miles away, the radiation, even in the meltdowns, didn't go past those, is my understanding. So even if you want to, just the easiest steel man. The new systems don't melt down. You don't have that possibility. And the SMRs don't even work.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
What do you think, Chamath? Do you see it or no?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Well, I was about to say, that would be... That's going to be the forcing. But if China runs away with this and they have so many of these running and then they're able to power AI and solve problems we're not, we're going to have to get our act together and start standing these up.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And we have so much space in this country, these things could be 100, 200 miles away.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
In these data centers? Certainly.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
What would be the harm, and just Freeberg, maybe you can educate us, and the distance it could be from a city reasonably in terms of building a grid to move the energy from, could it be 200 miles from a major city, 300, 100? What's the distance?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
But it has to travel, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah, I'm just trying to think reasonably move it is, I guess, what I was getting at. But okay, there you have it, folks. A good debate here on the All In podcast.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I was just thinking like if Canada and Mexico have, you know, economic incentive to do this or they're more bold, maybe they build them in their countries and they'll be selling it to the United States, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
They'll take the, I mean, if you're Kairos and you can't put this in the United States, but you could put it in Mexico and then come up with a, you know, a way to get it past Trump's border wall.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Well, I mean, I think, Freiburg, I'm with you in that even with the disasters that have happened, those are with Gen 1 and Gen 2 reactors. There hasn't been one in a long time. And the fallout from them haven't been significant.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
No, the 3 and 4. The 3s are what we should be rolling out everywhere. I would be fine with one being 100 miles from my backyard. No problem. 100. China is producing a gigawatt of power.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I don't think you should put it 10 miles outside of any city. I know that they're doing that in India. They're doing that in China. I would think, you know, if you look up the footprint of Fukushima, I mean, that was a complete disaster. They put that below sea level. They told them not to put it there.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And they put it near a bunch of people who were living within miles of it, single digit miles of it. There's no reason for this to be any closer than 50 or 100 miles. And I would be totally fine with it being 50 to 100 miles from where I'm on my ranch right now. Absolutely no problem with that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
That's why we're doing that with solar is we don't want people to look at a giant solar thing.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
We resolved our issue. We got the compromise here. Here we are solving world problems. Yes. I'm going to get my guitar and we're going to sing Kumbaya SMR.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Let's do it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Any progress, Sax is not interested in any progress, okay? If we can go back to the 50s, that's what he wants. Let's get some coal.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I'm virtue singling because I'm pro-nuclear?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Nuclear power is a luxury belief.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I just want to ask you, is everything identity politics for you, Sachs? Everything you see through the lens of poor and rich, everything.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
You're my favorite athlete.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
That's what it comes down to. Freeberg is trying to put this. Episode 200. I love it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
The 200 shows. Zach, let me ask you a serious question.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
If Trump loses, what's the next four years of this pod going to be like? What are we going to do here if he loses? He's moving to New Zealand.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Absolutely. They're going to come for you.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
What the Coastal Commission does is they block everything and they do pictures of the entire coastline. If you build like a shed on your beachfront property, they will know it and they come to you and they're like, no sheds. You cannot build any structures on the beach They're just like really, really hardcore.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And this is one person at the Coastal Commission referenced his tweets. Yeah. And the vote was 6-4 to increase these. So who is this one person?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah, this is what I don't understand.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And they've filed a, Elon's filed a lawsuit. And it's a 6-4 decision.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And Trump is saying he's going to be a dictator and he's going to do a bunch of lawfare when he gets in there. So both of these sides got to settle it down. That's exactly what he said. This has been another amazing quote. Okay.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Like, I'm just giving my opinion. I'm not allowed to give my opinion on the show. What are you grateful for right now in your life? I'm grateful for you doing all the work on the events and making them spectacular.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Oh, God. I will totally go to Mar-a-Lago for election night. Can we get a booth there? That would be hilarious.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Of course I'm invited. Trump loves me.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Oh, please. Trump loves me. He enjoyed his time.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Okay, I'll do it remote. That's fine. You can do it remote. That's fine. You don't want Jake out there? That's fine. Go with me. When is the election? I don't want to be at a party I'm not invited to.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
November 5th.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I just hope whoever wins, wins like significantly. Significantly. Yeah, please win by 30 electoral votes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I mean, I'm going to reveal my vote on the election special. I will have my vote.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
I got my ballot on my desk here. Yeah, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go. All right, everybody. This has been another wonderful episode. Oh, meetups. There are 200 episode meetups happening. Thank you to... All the fans who got together, take pictures and share them on social and at mention us all in dot com slash meetups.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Every couple episodes, fans get together around the world and talk about their favorite bestie. It's typically Freiburg. And we'll see you next time. Bye bye. Bye bye.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
They've just gone crazy with it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Let your winners ride.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah, it would have been nice to have another debate between these two.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah. What did you think of J.D. Vance saying he wouldn't have certified the election? They seem to be going after him on that over and over again.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
No, no. Literally every interview, they've been chasing him down the hall asking him. He's like, I'm not the only person. I may have started it, but what did you think of him saying he wouldn't have started it?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
No, no, but the question I asked you, Sachs, was... ISU sacks about him saying he wouldn't certify January 6th.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
What do you think, Friedberg, about him saying he wouldn't certify on January 6th?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Also, All In election night live stream is coming November 5th. You can watch live. Saks will be hosting. We're doing it. You're hosting it. Your team said you're doing it. And so you'll either get to see Saks.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
But Freeberg, the question I was going to ask you is, since you're not like hosting Trump, you know, fundraisers, do you think, what did you think when J.D. Vance said he didn't think that Trump lost the 2020 election? Does that concern you at all?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
That's what I'm here for, Chamath. I'm here for you. Well, I mean, independent of who wins, we need to get this rules of elections really tight starting next year, I think. Make it a federal holiday. Require people to have ID. That doesn't seem like such a big deal. I don't know. Sacks, what else should happen?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
That would be amazing. I'll go to Mar-a-Lago. That would be fun. Yeah, if it looks good, I'll go.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
So anyway, Heritage Foundation, which is obviously right-leaning, has a bunch of election fraud cases they've been documenting, and they basically cannot come up with actual evidence that this is changing any election results, but we should make it above reproach. I agree. All right. Our boy Elon had a big week. Tesla unveiled two new concepts at its WeRobot event.
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Dueling Presidential interviews, SpaceX’s big catch, Robotaxis, Uber buying Expedia?, Nuclear NIMBY
And Elon caught a 23-story rocket, the Starship. Here's the robo-taxi and the robo-bus. Both of them look really awesome. And he caught one of the, I think this is the fifth Starship or the fourth launch? Fifth.
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So f***ing incredible. Look at this. It's so incredible. It's like chopsticks catching a 23-story building.
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Crypto regulation, everything. What did he say about deficit and debt?
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Sacks, you were going to say? Well, I just think what other job in America could Biden even be qualified for? What would you hire him to do? Is there any mental job you would hire him to do? Is there any physical job you would hire him to do? Would you hire him to be your babysitter? I mean, I don't think there's any job in America that anybody would hire him to do. Except for maybe president.
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It's kind of crazy. And this is where the Democratic Party is in shambles. We should have the highest standards for the mental acuity, sharpness, and energy level of our president. It's the most demanding job in the world.
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I'm not sure about that. I don't think it's true that people don't like Trump.
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So you're- Yeah, but I think it's wrong to say that There's not enthusiasm and love for Trump. We saw it on the streets. We saw it in that room.
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Do you see Logan Paul meeting with Trump four years ago? He was for Biden. Now he's for Trump. Have you ever seen Trump walk into a UFC event? They go nuts for him. I'm just saying there's a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of love out there for Trump, a lot of excitement. I don't see any of that for Biden. There are people who don't like Trump and that drives some support for Biden.
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But if you look at enthusiasm and excitement, it's all on the Trump side.
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Well, I think it's ironic that the winning margin, 73%, is the same margin by which shareholders approved his comp package back in 2018. So again, they got 73% voted for this 2018. Now they voted to re-approve it by the same margin. And the reason why they had to do it is because this activist judge in Delaware avoided it on the grounds that somehow the original shareholder vote wasn't valid.
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And I think this is interesting that the margin didn't change because it shows that shareholders aren't ingrates. Elon delivered what he promised, and now shareholders are ingrates. upholding their end of the bargain. And certainly they didn't have to take that position. There were different groups like CalSTRS who basically took the position, what have you done for me lately?
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Yeah, you delivered, but we don't have to pay you because of the judge, so we're not going to pay you. And I think shareholders wisely approved the package because I think there was some chance that if they reneged, that Elon could leave the company. And I still think he's absolutely vital to all the innovation that's gonna come in the future from Tesla.
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And you see this, the stock is ripping on the news. It's up about 3% today in a down market. So clearly the market thinks that securing Elon's future at the company was the right decision and shareholders did the right thing. In terms of the downstream effect on this, like you said, it raises the specter of Delaware being an activist state. That's not why anyone incorporates in Delaware.
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The reason why you incorporate in Delaware is because you think it makes you subject to an extremely predictable body of corporate law that's been tested and become bulletproof over many, many decades. And now all of a sudden, you have to worry that maybe a judge will set aside
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a shareholder vote for reasons that seem incredibly specious, especially in light of the fact that the shareholders just re-approved it. So obviously the shareholders didn't think they needed your protection and they voted to reverse you.
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And moreover, Tesla could still be subject to paying the legal fees of these trial lawyers who've asked for literally billions of dollars in legal fees that the judge still has to rule on. So imagine this, imagine that the shareholder vote gets set aside by the judge, it then gets re-approved by shareholders, but the trial lawyers who brought this nuisance suit can now get billions of dollars.
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If that happens, I mean, Delaware can kind of kiss its status as the premier corporate law state away.
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Make a list. That's exactly what they did. That's exactly what they did. It's worse if they voted yes the first time and then they voted no.
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Then maybe you're just against the deal. But if you're yes, no, then that's a renege.
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These are people who- They're public market investors, not private investors. They buy the stock on the open market, so they don't have to worry.
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The chances are probably- I think that was a risk, and I think that made people think about it.
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But remember, she's not investing in private companies. She's buying stock on the open market.
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Oh, okay. I didn't know that.
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Let's call this whole thing what it is. It was a heist. You had these trial lawyers. They find a name plaintiff who's got nine shares. And on a contingency fee basis, they go after Elon's pay package. What are they looking for? $5.6 billion.
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That's what motivated this whole thing. They don't care about Tesla. They don't care about the company. They don't care about shareholders. They're looking for a giant multi-billion dollar contingency fee payment. And they took their shot. And they found a Delaware judge to basically agree with them even though shareholders approved it. And then shareholders re-approved it.
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So my question is, how much are these trial lawyers gonna get? Is a judge gonna award them billions of dollars for what was clearly now a mistake to avoid a pay package that shareholders wanted to stick with?
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If they award these lawyers billions of dollars, which is what they're seeking, no one's gonna wanna do business in Delaware anymore because it subjects you to these stick-up heists by trial lawyers. So I think that's going to be the next big shooter drop is what do these trial lawyers get awarded?
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No, I'm serious. Here's an idea. Buy the shares yourself. Yeah, they said, we don't like your management of the company, but we want to be paid in your shares.
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They secured the bag. But Delaware is supposed to protect corporations against this grift. That's why people incorporate there.
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Let's go. All right. Let's get some action. Is this guy on right now? LFG.
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That's amazing. Sax is ready for another round. We turned 10 into 25. All right. So are we going to have a separate all in balance? We just keep rolling it every week. Yeah, can you come back next week? This is even rolling.
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Well, the market definitely thinks so because Apple was up big on this news. And even if it was largely vaporware at this point, the market definitely liked where they were going. And frankly, Apple did exactly what I said they should do last week, which was to reinvent Siri as an LLM with the capability to reach into apps as an agent and take actions on the user's behalf.
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That's what they effectively announced. However, Apple took a shortcut to get here. They partnered with OpenAI, and this is something that I don't think they've ever really done before at the operating system level. Apple is famous for being vertically integrated, for being a walled garden, for being end-to-end.
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They control everything from the chips to the hardware to the operating system, and they don't let anybody else in until you're at the App Store layer. This is allowing somebody in beneath the level of the App Store. This is allowing someone... Open AI to get access to your data and to control your apps at the operating system level.
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And I think Elon pointed out, wait a second, what are the privacy implications here? And I think there are major privacy implications. There's simply no way that you're going to allow an AI on your phone to take all these actions on your behalf without giving that model substantial amounts of user data. And that is a huge change for Apple. Remember, Apple in the past
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has been the advocate for consumer privacy. There's a whole issue of the San Bernardino terrorist, where the FBI went to Apple and said, we want you to give us backdoor access to their phone, and Apple refused to do it and went to court to defend user privacy.
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And furthermore, one of Apple's defenses to the arguments, the antitrust arguments for allowing sideloading and allowing other apps to get access to parts of the operating system, as they've always said, we can't do this because it would jeopardize user privacy and user security. Well, here they are opening themselves up
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to open AI in a very deep and fundamental way in order to accelerate the development of these features. In other words, they took the shortcut. They could have developed the LLM themselves. They could have developed the AI themselves, but they chose not to do that.
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And I think this is going to open Pandora's box for Apple because, again, they've proven that they can open up the operating system to a third party now. And who knows what the privacy implications of this are going to be.
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First of all, let me say that, you know, we've talked about AI General Hospital and all the soap opera issues around OpenAI. Yeah. And, you know, Judge Tax had opinions on that. Yes. But putting that aside, I mean, everyone acknowledges that their products are awesome. I mean, OpenAI makes really great products with ChatGPT 4.0 being at the top of the list.
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And I talked about how when we moved from ChatGPT 4.0 Turbo to 4.0 at Glue, the speed and quality went up, you know, at least 2x and it felt like 10x. So they have the best language model as of this point in time. And they also have other products that are really great, like the Whisper API, which does transcription. I mean, there's a whole bunch of tools they have that are great for developers.
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So nobody's taking anything away from them on the product side. And I think you're seeing that in this revenue number. Now, if I was to try and take apart this business as an investor, I would separate the B2C business from the B2B business. The B2C is a consumer subscription plan, people paying $20 a month. I'm one of them. I pay the $20 a month.
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It's probably the only LLM that I would pay $20 a month for. How often do you use it? Daily, weekly, monthly? I'd say a handful of times. To be honest, it's not like a daily use for me, but I probably use it every week, I would say, at least once. So I still use it. I have to say, though, that the other LLMs are catching up.
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And if Gemini ever gets good enough or when Grok gets to the next level, am I going to stick with that $20 a month plan? I'm not sure. It depends whether OpenAI can really... maintain the leadership it has or the perception of leadership. Okay, so that's half the business. And then the other part of the business is the B2B, which is the API products that effectively they're selling to developers.
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And that's where I would place the future value of this company. I mean, as somebody who invests in SaaS, when we see a business that has B2C subscriptions and B2B, we place all the value on B2B. And the reason is because Historically, the churn rates in B2C are too high. 5% to 10% churn rates are common. 50% a year per month. 50% churn a year are very common.
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OpenAI may not be experiencing that yet, but it's very hard to avoid the downdraft of consumer churn. And on the other hand, on the B2B side, a good B2B business has expansion, 120%, 150% expansion year over year from same customers. In other words, they're ordering more.
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Yeah. The first thing I'd want to know is how much of the $3.4 billion is consumer and how much of it is developers?
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Collaborative AI.
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That's interesting. So you use multiple LLMs to find the hallucinations.
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That's actually pretty interesting.
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But you're not going to pay for four of these, right? How many would you be willing to pay for? I would pay for five. You'd pay for five different LLMs?
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Well, as a work tool. Because it's 1% of their salary. Okay, so as a work tool. As a work tool, no problem. I guess there's three categories to their business now that you're raising this. There's sort of the consumer subscriptions. Then there's the business subscriptions, which are basically the consumer product, but a company's paying for it. Correct.
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And then there's the developers paying for metered API usage.
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Yeah, it's kind of like Microsoft Office or Google Docs where consumers use them for free or want to use them for free and then companies will pay for it and that's where the real money is.
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I actually disagree with that framing, Jason.
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The dealer's probably making a porno in the next room.
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Well, look, we just had this inflation report. CPI was 3.3%. The market was expecting 3.4%. So that's a teeny bit better than expected, but it's still persistently sticky, inflation is. And furthermore, Powell's comments were very hawkish. He basically said he could not commit to when rate cuts might begin.
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And we're already, remember, at the beginning of the year, we entered the year with expectations for seven rate cuts this year. Now we're down to an expectation of one rate cut. And we can't say for sure when that's going to happen. So honestly, I think your introduction overstated how positive this news was. And that's why I think if you look at the markets right now, it's very mixed.
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Most tech stocks that I'm seeing are actually in the red. And a few of them, like Tesla and Apple and Nvidia, are up. But the vast majority are in the red. So I think the market is taking this in stride. I think the big picture here is just we don't know when red cuts are going to begin. And I think that Vinnie Lingham had a really interesting take on this, actually, where
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He said, look, could Powell cut by a quarter point? Would that matter that much? No, it wouldn't matter that much. But the point is, Powell doesn't want to say that the rate-height cycle is over, right?
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If he were to cut by a quarter point, that by itself wouldn't do much, but it would be a huge statement that we're out of the woods on inflation, there's not going to be any more hikes coming, and we're beginning a new rate-cut cycle. And Powell is clearly unwilling to say that. We're still in this limbo where he is saying that we don't know when rate cuts are going to begin.
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On the back of like two stocks. I mean, NVIDIA is holding up the whole market. There's a lot of funny memes about this.
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AI stocks are holding up the whole market.
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If you're asking what his incentives are, I agree with Chamath. I think his main incentive at this point is concern for his historical legacy. And specifically, he wants to be thought of like Volker, not like Arthur Burns in the 70s. Volker...
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basically crushed inflation even at the cost of a recession, and he is worshipped today as the best Fed chair ever, whereas Burns let inflation slip the leash in the 1970s, and he's not thought of very highly. So I think that Powell's main concern here is with his historical legacy at this point. I don't think he's expecting to be reappointed. He's wrapping up his second term already.
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Now, I think if you go back to 2021, the incentives were a little bit different. Powell wanted to be reappointed by Biden, And remember that in the summer of 2021, that's when the inflation began. We had that surprise 5.1% inflation print. Powell was up for renomination and confirmation in November of 2021. And I think what happened back in that year
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is the administration downplayed the inflation report. They called it transitory. Yellen did, Biden did. And so Powell had to get on board with that message if he wanted to get confirmed by the Democrats. And he did get on board with that message. He repeated the whole transitory point. And for that reason, they didn't begin the rate hike cycle until March of the following year.
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And from that May inflation print to November, they kept doing QE, even though we had inflation back in the system. So I think that Powell was actually intensely political in 2021. He knew who was going to reappoint him and who was going to have to confirm him. And he got on board with that message. And that's why they were so slow to react to the inflation. And I think it was disastrous.
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And that's one of the reasons why the rate tightening cycle was so steep is because he had to catch up with all this inflation that he had allowed for nine months longer than he should have. But if you ask me what's his incentive now, I think it's purely about legacy. And he does not want to let inflation come back after cutting rates a little too soon.
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So his incentive, I think, at this point is to make sure that he's not wrong again about inflation.
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I know. You ever feel like when you like tiptoe into the bet with like a small amount, but you want to do more and then you win and you feel like you actually lost money because if you had made a bigger bet, you would have made more.
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Well, no, there's politics when they're up for appointment or for re-election. appointment for confirmation, basically, because they want to get that vote. Yes, but subtle pressure.
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Yeah, they don't have to. I mean, the Fed is independent.
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this year because there is no political pressure. There was in 2021, and I think that's why he was slow to react. Listen, if Powell can stick the landing here, then his legacy comes out intact. But if he screws this up, and then he was slow to react to the inflation back in 2021 and 2022, his legacy is going to be mud.
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So I think he's going to be more concerned about erring on the side of tamping down inflation than erring on the side of the economy not doing as well. I think those are the incentives.
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There's a handful of tech stocks that are, no, no.
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I don't know, Jason. Look, I'm hearing a lot of happy talk right now. And I agree with you. You had 1.3% GDP growth rate with a 6% of GDP deficit by the government. If the government wasn't printing so much money, wasn't overspending, if you were to have a balanced budget... It would be a recession. Yeah. Yeah. Think about that.
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And a lot of the jobs you're talking about are government jobs. The government is creating jobs like crazy, not in the private sector, but in the public sector because it is an election year. So there's a lot of political forces propping things up. And I wonder what happens after the election.
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Instead, we put 10. We won 15. I lost 60.
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Just one last thing, guys. This is really important. So friend of the pod, Peter Fenton, who's a famous VC in Silicon Valley, tweeted that his sister has been diagnosed with a rare sarcoma and they are searching for lookalike cases to do a study at Dana-Farber. And If this works, it will change the future of cancer.
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But they are seeking, this researcher, William Gibson, who he's retweeting, is seeking patients with myoxoid myosarcoma featuring a PLAG1 fusion. So if you are somebody out there who has a case like this, then please reach out and let us know or let Peter Fenton know. This could save a life. or many lives. His sister is also the wife of a good friend of ours, Pete Brigger.
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So our thoughts are definitely with you. And if there's anybody out there who has this type of sarcoma, please let us know. And we can refer you to Dana-Farber. And this is a very important study that may save some lives.
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Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
We made a Jake Nelson's back. Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
Well, should we take you guys behind the scenes of a presidential fundraiser? I admit I've never done one before, so it was a new experience for me. When you host a president, it's just a whole different level of preparation. The Secret Service was out like a week before, the President has an amazing advanced team. They work out every detail. They make a map of your house.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
They really have to think through everything. The police shut down the street. It's really a very involved process.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
Yeah. So what's really interesting is that all week, the San Francisco publications had been trying to gin up protesters by writing about that, you know, the president's coming to town and the protesters are going to show up. And in fact, there was almost no anti-Trump protesters.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
And then a huge number of pro-Trump demonstrators came out and they were waving flags and cheering along his motorcade as he was coming to the house. So the whole protest thing backfired. Why do you think
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
I think there's just a big enthusiasm gap. I mean, I think that the pro-Trump people are very enthusiastic and the, let's call pro-Biden or anti-Trump people are just not very motivated right now.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
so anyway so owen mccabe who's the founder of intercom he was there and i i think this was actually a good summary because he said that he spoke with a bunch of people and none of them identifies republican all voted or donated democrat in the past that's true for me too now they're backing this guy for his policies on war immigration crypto and more this election is referendum on those issues so owen you know came out appreciate his support but it's true the campaign told us that they had more
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
first time donors at this event than they've seen before. And that's because a lot of these people hadn't supported Republicans or hadn't supported Trump, and they came out. So we have a few photos and videos here to take you behind the scenes. I think that might be interesting for people. So the first thing to say is that President Trump is extremely charming.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
He connects with people in like five seconds. I mean, he meets you and finds something interesting or funny to say. And he's hilarious. I mean, when he spoke, in the living room and he talked extemporaneously for an hour. He's speaking off the cuff. Every speech he gives is different. This is him coming into the living room. He had made just a few notes about topics he wanted to talk about.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
on a piece of paper, but that was it. It was all completely extemporaneous. No teleprompter, obviously. And he's hilarious. I mean, people don't realize how entertaining he is.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
Or did he go off and... Well, he did talk crypto. And it was really interesting. At one point in his speech, he called on the Winklevoss brothers who were there. And I'm only mentioning this because it was already reported that they were there. So I don't want to speak out of school. But he said to them, he says, I know you guys created Facebook. He was giving them credit for creating Facebook.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
Yeah, but he said, but it's okay. I mean, you guys look like models. You were dealt a lot of cards, you know, a lot of cards.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
Great hair. And so I thought, okay, wow, like he must know the Winkvoss brothers. He must have met them previously. And I found out this is the first time that he had ever met them. So think about the awareness that he has to know that they're in the audience, to see them, point them out, and then have this kind of hilarious routine with them. So he's someone who's very sharp, very on the ball.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
very funny. And then his energy level is incredible. So he had started his day at Mar-a-Lago at 3.30 a.m. Pacific time, 6.30 a.m. his time. Then he flew to Arizona, did a Trump rally in Arizona. Then he flew to San Francisco for our event. He spent four hours at our event. He could have left an hour earlier if he wanted to. Then he flew to LA for more events the next day there.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
So think about his day and his energy level was just amazing the whole time.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Elon gets paid, Apple's AI pop, OpenAI revenue rip, Macro debate & Inside Trump Fundraiser
Who else is wearing a tie? You don't want the tie? Jamal doesn't need a tie. He's a baller. Do you want to say what Trump said to you when he met Natalie?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And these are groups of people, I think, who you can double click on young people, Hispanic and Asians. Asians believe in meritocracy, I think, is what most people have read into that dramatic swing. And Hispanics are anti... or more traditional family values, and that's probably what pushed that so far away.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
But I wanted to just get your take on that chart, Shamab, in relation to your handicapping of the election, and then how much Kamala and how much the inflation played into it.
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Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Tolerance, freedom of speech.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
They started that process. They knew that going into this election and they started moving to the center. It was laughable in some cases because you have like Kamala talking about providing sex changes for prisoners and all of those receipts came out. So even as she started to try to get to the center, people didn't buy it. So of course they're going to.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
But what's very interesting about Spen there and the genius of Trump is earned media. What's earned media? When you are trying to get hits in media, you will put them into two buckets, paid and earned. What you just showed was paid. Paid is considered what you do if you can't earn media. All In Podcast is an example of earned media. We do this every week. We earned our audience.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
We didn't pay anybody for this audience. And I think that was, you know, what Trump did and J.D.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And so that's the piece of this that I think is so important. You don't have to pay to go on Joe Rogan. But the candidate that the Democrats put out there was so bad. that she could not even, and I think Sachs is master at setting people up here. The Democrats put up a horrible, horrible candidate. And I know Sachs is saying, oh, it's not Kamala's fault. Kamala could not go on
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Joe Rogan, because they knew that it would be so embarrassing and that she would get so embarrassed that it would lose her votes. His doom loop observation from, I don't know, eight weeks ago you had that, Sax, was exactly correct. The more she spoke, the more she started going down. She was leading Trump at one point on polymarket in some of these places, and she absolutely proved
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
that she could not communicate well. And I just want to just circle back to the point about inflation. Here's the McDonald price increases that I was mentioning before. End of 2019, you could buy a McChicken for $1.29, and in mid-2024, it was $3.89. The majority of Americans wind up going to Taco Bell, McDonald's every week. some cases multiple times a week.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
You cannot discount exactly how profound this cost of eating food and buying groceries had on this election. It is the number one issue, I think, this election. We can talk in our bubble about it, but it was about inflation.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Not good is generous.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
It's so obvious that that technique they used to defeat Trump in 2020 after those chaotic four years was, hey, do you want normalcy?
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Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
What's that? I didn't hear the joke. I said, what tactic was that? 15 million extra votes? Please don't start with the conspiracy theories.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Who's the chart from? Who's the chart from? What's the providence of the church?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Like they mailed out- Hold on, before we go down this rabbit hole, let me just finish my point. Then you guys can go to Conspiracy Corner and say the election was stolen. The point I'm making here is, obviously- Biden ran a very successful campaign against Trump based on vibes and based on his creating chaos in the country and most people's mind in this return to normalcy.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
So that did work for them previously. It just didn't work this time because they had to defend their record on the border. They needed to defend their record on the economy. And Sachs is exactly right. They didn't touch that. And how do you not talk about their own record? And their record had some good bright spots to it. Record low unemployment, record high stock market, and we tamed inflation.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Okay, let's start.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And they could have had a really great discussion about inflation and just said, hey, listen, both
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
of the last two terms there was a lot of spending and so inflation manifested during the last four years and uh hey we tamed it so here we are we still have record low unemployment we still have a record high stock market and we tamed inflation things are going to get better but she couldn't even communicate that i can communicate that better than the presidential candidate Come on.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
She could have easily done that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
I'm about to get to that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
It's very clearly this had to do, you know, primarily with Kamala. It is the candidate and how she was selected. Yeah, I mean, obviously, if you had the same track record.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Maybe even a little bit more recently.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
I mean, I've been very clear about that. My record's been very clear about that. It is clear that it was her because I will say if you had put up Friedberg, and I think it's great that you're forcing us to pick one of the three. And it's a hard thing to do. But if you had picked Dean Phillips and Shapiro, I think they would have beat Trump very easily.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Because remember, Trump was phenomenally unpopular. And I think the big question that's going to come out of this is how did Elon do getting young men and how did Joe Rogan and podcasts like ours do at getting young men to come out and vote? That's something we haven't talked about yet.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And I feel like that could be the one thing that comes out of this election over the coming years that we look at that'll be the sustainable change is that young men are now voting and they want to vote for something very different than white women or old people.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Feels great. Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
So thank you for that. Yeah, my pleasure.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Absolutely, yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Yeah, it's a great question. I think the thing we have to do now is come together as a country. He's the president. It's great that it was... not a debatable election, and we're not going to have riots at the Capitol and people beating up police officers. And now it's time to actually look at what Trump said. And then we will grade him on what he actually gets done.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And, you know, if he is able to hang out with the cohort of Elon and Chamath and Sachs and J.D. Vance, I feel a lot better about it. Now, there's a lot of people speculating he will turn on Chamath, he will turn on Sachs, he will turn on Elon, and that relationship will end in the next year or two. That's what I'm looking at. Will Trump actually do the things he says he's going to do?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Absolutely. Absolutely.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And what did he say he was going to do? Well, he's not going to have a national abortion ban. He's not going to kick people out who get college degrees here. Remember, he said on the show he's going to staple the green card to it. And he said he's going to end the war in Ukraine on day one. So let's make a list of all the things he promised.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And like anybody else, let's judge him based on what he gets done. Now, some of the things he promised, like the mass deportation of 15 million people, I think a lot of people, even on this podcast, probably don't agree with. I don't think anybody here wants to see 15 million people
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
who came here to have a better life and who are working hard and who are productive members of our society literally get dragged out of here. The 500,000 that are criminals or a million, sure, nobody wants to see them get a free pass here, but You know, there's going to be some of the items on his agenda that are going to be very uncomfortable to see executed.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And some of them would be amazing and miracles. If he comes in and all of a sudden Ukraine war is settled, fantastic. If he starts dragging a million people every day, you know, two or three months out of the country, that could be absolutely disastrous and incredibly hard to watch happen in America. So we've got to judge him based on his actions. That's great. Let's give him the support he needs.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And I really hope, you know, the thing that gives me hope is the fact that Sachs, Chamath, Elon, and J.D.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Would you serve if asked?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
There was a lot of controversy around the sweepstakes idea. I don't know why that was so controversial because if you think about-
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
So if we look at that million dollar sweepstakes to sign up for his PAC, if you think about how people normally get people to sign up, they're paying a dollar a click probably $50 a click, whatever it is using giving money to ABC or giving money to Facebook. And he just said, Hey, I'll just do a sweepstakes sign up for this. And then I have you in the database, and then I can market it to you.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
There's no difference between giving away a million dollar sweepstakes or buying a bunch of ads and paying by click. And for everybody to frame that as he's buying votes when it was so clear he wasn't, I think that's the kind of media manipulation people are getting savvy to and does not work anymore. It was very clear. It was just a sweepstakes to sign up for his pack.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
It's no different than paying $10 a click to Facebook.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
He was in a good mood. You remember the moment when his hand touched yours? Take us to that. I'm just saying that when I- Did he give you the shake? He gives that little shake to exert a little dominance. Did he give you the shake?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
She got paid? They were paying celebrities to show up?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Who knows?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
I think probably you're disappointed because you had such a high benchmark for him. But we were just talking about Trump saying he would end the war on day one. He said that he's going to deport 15 million people. And, you know, all these politicians lie. So I think my closing statement on all of this is y'all were a key part in putting Trump in obviously.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And if he starts behaving in the way he behaved during his first term, the darker things he did, I hope that y'all will call him on it and publicly call him on it and that he will steer towards, you know, his better angels. And that's my hope for America and my hope for all of you who helped put him in office and played a very significant role in getting him here.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
When he does something crazy, if he does try to drag 15 million people out of the country, is that okay with you, Sachs?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And look- If he went after the other 14 million, would you be in support of that?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
I agree with all that. And I do think... if he does try to do the 14 million, that's the thing I have concerns about. Got it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Are you officially a Mar-a-Lago member, by the way? No. 500 large? No. Oh, my Lord. Is that true? 500,000?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
The FBI had logins. They could just go in themselves. I mean, it was crazy.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Well, and let's not forget the FOIA leader. They were literally being taught how to route around, Fauci's team, how to route around subpoenas and people looking for information. I mean, there's a lot to uncover here. I'm 100% here for it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Yeah, they were putting asterisks in, you know, hacker speak in order to avoid this. And they were also told, a bunch of people who are in three-letter agencies, just by default, put this at the highest level of security not to be declassified. So they unnecessarily put everything in classified. And so now...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Every document, every email is marked at the highest level of classification, which means there's no discerning it. And if you were to blame an FBI agent, if they told you, hey, just put everything on classified so it doesn't get out. Okay, that seems like a pretty good way to cover your ass. And that's got to change, yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
You're a man of science. I know you have some differences with RFK. Do you want to see him?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
on a nuanced basis, then net net, where do you wind up free Burke net net, where do you wind up?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And as long as net net, do you like him as a disinfectant as a rabble rouser as to shake up the system or net net? Do you think it's too risky to let him in?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Well, yeah. I mean, he has been a major proponent. You were going to run for mayor once, J. Cal? I was lobbied. I was approached, and I was given a lot of support, seven figures of support to go do it. It's a very hard job because the supervisors actually run the city. And a lot of the supervisors, like... They got booted too, no?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And I mean, the crazy thing in Los Angeles with Gascon was a number of people who I know live there now know people in Santa Monica, in Brentwood, in Bel Air, where we lived for so many years, Sachs. have home invasions have started again. I mean, that is like a real breaking point for people. It's scary to have your home broken into by a gang.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Let's do it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
College educated women, too, I think came out.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
I think a lot of them did, clearly, but not enough to swing the election. And, you know, it's going to be- Do you think it's going to be- To the question, is Sacks right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
There will be states where women will not be able to get an abortion, sadly. They will not be able to make that decision for themselves. That's my personal belief. They should be able to make the decision for themselves. I'd like to stay out of it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
But Sachs is largely right that if you don't, if I'm reading it correctly, think about it if you're a state and you ban abortion, who's gonna wanna live there? You're gonna have a lot of people leaving. And that's been an issue here in Texas. A lot of companies are having a hard time with not only getting women to move here to work at specific companies in Texas,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
But men are well or not, are citing it as a concern. So it's going to make it really untenable for an economy.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
I have heard many stories about people not wanting to come work at companies in Texas because of this law. Yes. I have heard that from employers. I'm not talking about any of Elon's companies. I don't speak for him, obviously. But this has been an issue for companies in Texas. Okay.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
It's my best advice.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
But don't worry. Bear's on the menu.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Zantum gum. Stop using your moderator privileges to push your agenda, Free Bird. Take care, guys. I love you. I love you guys.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
That SNL skit was next level, I agree.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Yeah, well, clearly, being on podcasts was a major part of Trump's strategy that people are starting to report on right now. And, you know, in media, you go where the audience is. And I think the Democrats just didn't get that. Now, stepping back, I think the number one problem here is the candidate that the Democrats put up. And probably the close number two is inflation.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And, you know, the economy, as you know, we all know it's the economy, stupid. If you were paying... $2 for a cheeseburger at McDonald's, and now it's $4. That's what people are going to remember. And the inflation that occurred over this last four years was huge. And people cited that over and over and over again. So there's probably three buckets you could put this conversation into.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
There's the candidate. Kamala Harris was a terrible candidate. She was put in at the last minute and she was anointed and she didn't go through a proper primary. I think that's probably number one in this entire thing. It was a terrible candidate. You're saying number one is the candidate. I think number one is the candidate.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Number two, I think, because remember, Trump was incredibly unpopular as well. And all credit to Trump for winning and running an incredible campaign. I mean, just they crushed it on podcasts with J.D. Vance turned out to be spectacular on podcasts and really delivered the message. And, you know, the number two is obviously inflation in the economy.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And then I think number three is the bucket that Chamath started with, which is. The country really, really does not like being told that they're racist or sexist, et cetera, cancel culture. And you put those three things together.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
one of the things that's coming out right now is some of the ads and we'll play an ad here i wanted you guys to see this i think this ad sums up exactly how bad kamala was and we'll combine this ad with just some of the statistics that have come out of how many people have gone right this is charlamagne the god from the breakfast club for those who don't know in a donald trump ad what taxpayer-funded sex changes for prisoners surgery
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
And so how does Kamala come back from this with black voters, with male voters, with people who are tired of having this agenda shoved down their throat? Obviously, it's going to be incredibly difficult. Plus, she was in charge of the border, claimed she wasn't. Plus, she was in charge of, you know, and Biden were in charge of the economy when inflation spiked.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Terrible candidate combined with a bad track record combined with a flawless campaign from Trump. I think easy victory. And, you know, if we pull up this FT chart, Nick, that I sent you ahead of time, and I tweeted this, you know, Americans love winners and innovation and they hate socialism and this woke nonsense. And if you look at how Trump's support increased, look at this, Chamath.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Trump wins! How it happened and what's next
Every single demographic, Black, Asian, Hispanic, 18 to 29, 30, 30 to 34, female, white college men, except for two, 65-year-old plus, very moderately, very modestly went left. And white college women very modestly went left in terms of increasing support.