Sarah
Appearances
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Also was kommt da auf uns zu? Ich habe einen sehr guten Artikel gelesen bei Winning by Design von Jakob van der Kooij. Und was super interessant ist, da geht es natürlich um das Thema AI, was uns natürlich extrem beschäftigt, weil wir einfach in diesem Space gerade mega unterwegs sind. Und die Prediction ist, in 2025 AI won't just assist people, it will replace them.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Und er hat das ziemlich krass formuliert, aber ich finde es, Super interessant, weil wir uns natürlich auch, glaube ich, wie jedes Unternehmen gerade überlegen, wie wir auch intern unsere Prozesse optimieren.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Wir machen das ja bei unseren Kunden ganz stark, aber wie können auch wir, und ich breche das jetzt mal runter auf Pre-Sales, unsere Prozesse verschlanken, optimieren, unterstützen und dazu eben KI nutzen? Was vielleicht ganz interessant ist, es gibt da ein super Research Paper oder ein White Paper, was er publiziert hat.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Und da geht es um das erste Principle, dass die Buyer-Seller-Asymmetrie halt komplett umgekehrt ist. Und das ist auch dementsprechend der Fall. Wir merken ja mehr und mehr, dass einfach unsere Käufer gerade im SaaS-Bereich einfach viel mehr wissen können, auch schon viel mehr Vergleiche herangezogen haben, was Software-Vendors angeht.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Und ich meine, mit ChatGPT und anderen Tools kann ich über ein super Prompt Engineering mir eigentlich eine Tabelle erstellen lassen, wer was wo wie im Markt anbietet, was die Differentiators sind. in welchen Märkten gewisse Softwareunternehmen unterwegs sind, wie jeder Einzelne mit Datenschutz umgeht.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Das heißt, das Thema Research, bevor es überhaupt zum Kauf kommt, ist jetzt wirklich nicht mehr mehr auf der Education-Seite, also bei uns als Anbietern, sondern natürlich auch auf der Kundenseite. Das ändert vieles. Das Legacy-B2B-Geschäft wird eigentlich dadurch über ein modernes B2B-Geschäft abgelöst. Und jetzt muss man sich natürlich fragen, wie geht man damit um?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Ich glaube, die Frage stellen sich gerade ganz viele. Es gibt auch so eine ganz gute Statistik da drin oder auch eine ganz gute Tabelle. Da geht es darum, dass man sich diese Faktoren People, Process und Systems anguckt und quasi von einem People-centric auf einen Process-centric Approach umsteigt und eben guckt, wie AI eben Prozesse unterstützen kann.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Und nicht so sehr sich darauf zu fokussieren, wie kann AI People oder Leute unterstützen. Mit Co-Pilot können wir heute schon E-Mails vorschreiben, wir können uns Zusammenfassungen generieren lassen, wir können uns ganze PowerPoint-Decks in Canva und KI erstellen lassen. Aber ich glaube, hier geht es eher darum, wie wir auch unsere Prozesse langfristig verändern können.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Es ist ganz interessant, wenn man sich die Go-To-Market-Funktionen anguckt. Dann sind wir am Ende des Automatisierungsgrades. Soll heißen, es ist unheimlich schwer, Solution Architects oder Sales Engineering zu automatisieren, weil es natürlich eben wahnsinnig individuell ist, je nach Kunden-Use-Case. Und daher sind wir
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Im Automatisierungsgrad relativ weit hinten, klassisches Outbound-Calling, wie die BDS das machen, kann mittlerweile, und wir sind ja gerade auch in dem Feld unterwegs, das ist zwar nicht unsere Spezialität und unser Fokus, aber Outbound kann eben, desto besser Gen-AI zusammen mit Conversational-AI eingesetzt werden kann, kann auch das schon in Zukunft vieles ablösen.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Das Generieren von Quotes und Commercial Assets, gerade im Product-Led-Growth-Bereich, ist sowieso schon weitestgehend automatisiert. Das heißt, da kann man wahnsinnig viel auch über AI schon ablösen, wenn man sich das mal überlegt. Je individueller es wird, desto schwieriger wird es für die KI, da natürlich anzusetzen. Aber...
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
GeneEye und auch der Einsatz von Small und Large Language Models bietet natürlich auch wahnsinnig viele Möglichkeiten, in Zukunft autonom Entscheidungen zu treffen, auf fast humaner Ebene zu handeln und nicht nur Muster zu diskriminieren und zu analysieren, wofür KI eigentlich in der Vergangenheit eingesetzt wurde. Von daher super spannend, soll für uns heißen.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
James Marsden
Und was ich damit mitgeben möchte, Kernaussage ist, klar, jeder beschäftigt sich gerade, wie kann KI People und Menschen unterstützen? Stichwort Co-Pilot und auch bei uns Demo Automation. Welche Tools kann man da zur Unterstützung einsetzen? Aber man sollte sich auch Prozesse anschauen und wie KI Prozesse verändert. Das ist quasi die Kernaussage hier.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
I switch colors kind of every day. Love it. It's so cute.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
Yeah, it is. We are expecting freezing rain tonight.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
So it's about 4.11 right now. 4.30, it'll probably be pitch blackout.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
It's not really for me either, but I suffered through it for some of the other benefits of this place. That's fair.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
I do. Yeah. Sorry. Don't break it. I'm very nervous. Oh, don't be nervous.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
I just opened my Instagram and like literally first post was Dax. Then it was Monica. Then it was armchair. I'm like, yeah. This story happened in March of 2017, but the background goes a bit before that. So I was living in an apartment. I had been there about one year. It was just me and my dog.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
And one day I'm out for a walk a few streets away and a man came running up to me and he introduced himself. He said he had just moved in across the hall from me and he recognized me. So he wanted to come say hi. And that was fine. It was like a couple streets over. So that was a bit weird. But for the next year and a half, there was no issues. He was neighborly. I'd run into him occasionally.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
He'd pet my dog. He'd say hi through the door to my dog sometimes. I didn't know much about him, but I did pick up a few bits over time. So he was in his late 40s. I don't think he worked. So I do believe he was on like a social assistance program. And he had formerly been an engineer, which is just something that came to the back of my mind for later.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
He had mentioned an out-of-town boyfriend, and he'd sometimes be gone for a few weeks at a time to go visit him, but I never saw the boyfriend come our direction.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
Ottawa has a million people, although it's a spread out city, but the area I was in was fairly dense. Anyway, so then fast forward to about six months before the event in March, and I am starting to notice some odd behavior and it continues to escalate over the next several months. So like one thing, like his hair was perfectly normal and it started to get just wilder and wilder.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
And like by the end, it was just bleached blonde and completely unkempt and crazy and
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
oh wow i started to notice that i was running into him more frequently and then it ramped up to being like almost every time i left my apartment that i'd be running into this guy it felt suspicious i'd go out and then he knocked on his window to like wave to me through the window i was just starting to feel nervous it's now early february and i had mentioned to my mom like i
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
I think I might start looking for somewhere else to live. I'm just getting like a bad feeling, but wasn't super urgent about it. And then one night in early February, there was an incident in the hallway. I was in my living room and the walls are like paper thin. So I could hear everything in the hallway and the police showed up. It was not a peaceful situation. Lots of yelling.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
I could hear physical struggle out there.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
And at one point, he started doing a religious chant in like a foreign language. And it sounded almost like speaking in tongues. Oh, God. Oh, wow. He was like white French Canadian. Yeah. So for about half an hour before the police did take him away, and I was leaving for a trip the next day and would be gone for a week. I was like, okay, when I get back, I'm looking for an apartment.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
But then when I came back from my trip, he was nowhere to be seen. So I definitely had like a sense of relief about that. But I also kind of lost my sense of urgency. A small aside, during this period that he's away, I was also talking to the office of men about another issue. And she had asked me about him one day. And so I started telling her what I'd been noticing.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
And she told me that she actually had to start screening her phone calls because of him. Because he had been calling her 20 to 30 times a day. Oh, no. March 1st, he came back and I just had an immediate sense of dread. Like, oh, why did I waste this time? And he was away and not get out of here. And again, I took my dog out, got in and I went in as quickly as I can. So I shut my door.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
But then 15 seconds later, he knocked on my door. Oh, fuck. And I knew he had just seen me come in, so I like answered it. But he was coming to apologize for the incident that had happened in February.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
And he explained to me that his nurses had been changing his medication and it had been setting him off and that he had made comments about self-harm, which is why the police had showed up that night. And he had been in the mental health hospital in Ottawa. But then he proceeded to say, if anything happens again, please don't call the police on me. Please call the medics instead.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
But he then proceeded to go on about a birthday party he wanted to throw in May. It was going to be his 50th. And he wanted to rent out my apartment to do that.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
So that he'd have his apartment and my apartment. Oh my God. And I was like, well, no. And then he's like, well, it's fine. You can lock your bedroom door.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
It's fine. He's super pushy about it. I'm like, we'll talk about it closer too. But full well in my brain, I'm like, I'm not going to be here anymore.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
Then March 3rd, I was out at a concert with friends. I was not driving that night. I had parked at my friend's house and she was driving and driving me home after because the next day I was going back to her place anyways for a birthday. So I didn't have my car that night. The potential was there for me to drink, but I was not drunk. I had two drinks over the course of many, many hours.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
By the time I got home, it was almost 2 a.m., maybe 1.30. So again, my dog had been by himself for a few hours. So I go let him out. I'm coming back in, and he comes out of his apartment. So he kind of blocks me from my way in. And he was very, very clearly high on something. He was super giddy and high energy, jumping around. He was going from topic to topic.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
At one point, he started serenading me. Oh. It was just wild. Like, I didn't even know what to do. And then he drops on me that earlier that day, he had been planning to bomb the building. Oh!
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
He was telling me, and then he shows me sitting right in his doorway the supplies he had bought to do it. Oh, my God. The thing that sticks out in my mind is, you know, those propane canisters that you'd use for like a torch. They're kind of narrow, about a foot tall. There was about a dozen of those.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
And again, remember, he was an engineer, so he probably had to know how to do that. But he told me then he had changed his mind because he heard my dog whipper and decided he didn't want my dog to get hurt. So that's what made him change his mind about it and that he was going to return the supplies the next day.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
At some point during this whole conversation, he heard... handed me a stack of journals. There was like six or seven of them. And he asked me to hang on to them. He said, you can read them, but please don't give them to anybody, especially not the police. And then finally, another neighbor on our floor came out and was like, why the hell is there a conversation happening at 2am?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
So I then slipped into my apartment and locked the door. I had no car. So I completely panicked. I read a couple of pages of the journals and then I slammed them shut. I was like, this is too invasive. I can't text my sister and be like, do you still have a spare room? And then I just shut down and went to bed. I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
So then the next day I was just blocking it out. And my friend came over, I finally told her and she's like, we need to have get you out of here. You need to call the police. But my concern with calling the police was that I'm going to call them. They're going to deem him not a threat.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
He's going to know that I called the police on him when he three days ago just told me, please don't call the police, call the ambulance. Yeah. I have to get my ducks in a row and then report it. But they talked with sense into me like, what if next time nothing stops him? There is other families in here. So I packed up a bag, took my dog, left, called the police.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
And they did exactly what I expected. Showed up, deemed him not an immediate threat. And then left. I'm done here. I'm not. living in this apartment anymore. Luckily, I have good parents who live nearby. So I was able to go there and I emailed the office admin again, be like, remember our conversation about this guy? This is what happened. I don't want to live here.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
I'm paid for the month of March. Can I just break my lease at the end of it instead of the regular 60 days we have to give in Ontario? So they let me out of it. My parents and my brother and sister and one of my friends came, helped me load up my whole apartment in two hours as
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
quickly as we can while we were there he did knock on the door and ask if i was there my dad and brother answered i was there but they said i wasn't he said i apologize i hope she's not moving because of me then he asked for his journals back and we passed them out the door that was the end of my bomber neighbors did you ever find out anything more about this i mean the notion that someone else just moved in i know across the hall i really hope he got
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
some help and was able to get stable medication or something. I'm glad these programs exist that some people who need help can get social assistance on housing, but I never want to live.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
the part i was like well he did have the materials and again i was like maybe that's on me that i waited not quite 24 hours but 20 hours maybe the supplies had been removed by the time the police showed up but i know he was known to the police obviously he had been taken in by them three weeks prior we're frustrated with this also imagine how frustrated the cops are there's nothing really they can do they just got to keep responding to these people but there's a whole protocol probably everyone is extremely frustrated
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
Right. He hadn't actually committed a crime yet. You're allowed to own those propane cylinders and whatever other materials.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
Yeah. This time he decided, oh, he likes my dog and he didn't want him to get hurt. But I'm like, what about the little baby that lives upstairs?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
Oh, scary. Yeah, it's kind of my thing, though, shutting it out and ignoring it for a while.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
I'm not quite in Tallmakers, but I do now have my own house in a suburban area.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Crazy Neighbors
Thank you. Monica, I just finished reading your day one gift guide, and you're such an incredible writer. Oh, thank you. And Dax, I saw the little mouse that you drew.
CreepCast
Best of Creep Cast 2024
You do it. I'm going to type it in. I'll send you the link. You do it. You do it.
Debt Heads
S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)
I'm causing problems in my life that I never asked for. I'm constantly anxious looking into this. I didn't understand much of it as a person coming from a financial background. I've never had the conversation in Germany of people telling me like, oh, you need to take on debt and pay it off if you want to get a house loan at some point.
Debt Heads
S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)
Essentially what I've been taught is like, don't borrow money from anybody and you're fine.
Debt Heads
S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)
We were so worried we were going to be late. We just put our running skills to the test.
Debt Heads
S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)
So I'm Sarah. I'm a German finance journalist and Wall Street correspondent. And I moved to the U.S. from Germany in 2021. And when I moved to the U.S., I had conversations where people would tell me, oh, no, you need a credit card here in America. And I'm like, no, I'm fine. And they're like, no, no, no, it doesn't matter. You just need one to build a credit score.
Debt Heads
S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)
And I'm like, well, but like if I don't if I don't take on debt, like what could be wrong with my credit score? You know, like why would I need that?
Debt Heads
S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)
So I'd say my first real credit card I got just when I moved to the US. So I went to my bank. They actually approved me for a card with like a thousand dollar limit on it, which I had to use for, I don't know, six, eight months. Then I could get a second. That was like a whole process. And this entire time I'm thinking like, why am I even doing this?
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
One may equate the level of the bar to standards.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
I feel the same way she does. I think when you have a clean space, it truly enables you to let go of all the busy craziness and just have that serene peace. And it's crazy how much of an impact that actually does have. I think a lot of guys, especially in his position, would say, oh, well, it's not a big deal. You know, it's just a few things here I forgot.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Or just have little excuses or, oh, I'll do it now. I'll take care of it. It's just whatever. And not necessarily fully grasp how big of a deal this stuff really is over time.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
And I think how you wrote this write-in isn't far off from the type of conversation I would have. Because the way you laid it out here, and you don't need all the details because you were trying to explain your whole situation to us, but the way you articulated everything in this made it very clear to me exactly what you're trying to communicate, how you're trying to communicate it,
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
And I was on board. Like, I would understand that from the start. Oh, I get it. She needs this. And if he's in it, in it to win it, he will understand that this is also like a bit of a framework of what she kind of hopes for in a partner and out of it.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
in that, okay, I can really, you know, maybe I haven't been the greatest at this, but I can keep improving and I can get to a point where she doesn't ever have this worry. And this trip is a very great, big first step at that to where she comes back, it's perfect.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Every, you know, maybe you could help him by making a little calendar or something or little reminder thing, because even when Morgan's gone, I need to feed the horses. I don't want to bother her her whole trip being like, hey, what do they get tonight at this time? What do they get tomorrow at the noon feeding? And blah, blah, blah. It's helpful if it's just laid out and then I know my process.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
But then he could even send texts to check in like, watered the plants today, did this, and hope your trip's going well. I miss you, whatever. I just think it could be a really good place to start.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
There are definitely warning signs. I understand that. The little bit of hope that I have is that he has improved. Yeah. And he hasn't turned her place into what his was. And he recognizes the fact of how that was really bad.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
And it comes down to the details, which we don't have. I know we have a lot here. You did very well explaining. You gave us a lot to work with.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
But we don't know what it's like to be a fly on that wall and watch him actually attempt to do these tasks.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Is it weaponizing competence? Or is it just, I've never learned to do it right. And that can be something that can also be improved upon. I don't think there is no light at the end of the tunnel because there's a bit of hope.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
So whether you want to risk it with this trip and the plants now.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Or because it is, I mean, it is the ultimate test. This is the best version of seeing that that you can get. But the other best version of it is day-to-day life.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Because that is what the norm is going to be. It's easy to, if he would let it all go really to shit. And then on day 29 of the trip, he's like, All right. Going to get everything cleaned up. He spends two days straight cleaning. You come back. It's perfect. I have this. You just don't know.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
And just have a friend come check in and borrow a jacket or something, a clothing item that they really want to borrow from you, but you're gone. So they're going to come in and grab it and check it out.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Yeah, but you're not going to be like, hey, show me everything.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
I think they either have it or they don't.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Well, the issue too, sometimes the only thing that'll inspire someone to recheck in is the threat of losing you.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Which also goes back to the boundary ultimatum conversation we had earlier where it's not, hey, you're going to start doing this for me or I'm leaving. You have to buy me a gift in the next two weeks.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
buy me presents but i mean that's what you're trying that would blow me right that i would walk that's fine but you're trying to insinuate that without directly insinuate without you know communicating anything near that it's more of a and i don't know if if you can necessarily re-inspire someone
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Because I think sometimes the only way, if it's not happening from within, is the threat of losing the person.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Well, a reminder is always good. You know, whether it's the chores around the house or whatever, if someone's slacking, a reminder is always valuable.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Yeah. I don't really think there's any other way to do it except for... You address it head on.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
You can't kind of, you know, not passive aggressively, but you can't really try and lightly.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
It's more just like matter of fact. Yeah. And I get that people with addiction problems really struggle and relapse is very real and can be very much out of someone's control for a significant part of what control they have over it. Considering everything, yes, you don't want a part of your life. And like, I think you said it beautifully, if that's the life you want,
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
That's cool, but it's just not intertwined with mine at that point. So it's trying to inspire change from within them to say, what do I want? I can either have this, like how we've had it, and it's amazing, or... I can go down this path.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
And if you make it clear and straightforward that that's the expectation and that's where the bar is set, then the ball isn't in your court and it's not you policing their life. It's just saying,
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
This is where I'm at. And yeah, you have care and you love this person. And there's a lot of complicated feelings and all of that within the relationship. So it's, you know, you're delicate about it, but it's stern.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
For me... It's always just about, I think the best thing in life you can do is just be so true to yourself and not hide anything to where the people you surround yourself with, the different friend groups, your family, whatever circles you're in.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
There's nothing you're hiding. There's nothing you're lying about. Because if you have to lie or not be your true self to fit in with a certain group. That's horrible in itself. Then what is that? And what's the point? Yes, it may have had a really positive impact on your life and you may highly value your relationship with all of these people in this group.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
But for me, it just starts to cross the line when you feel you need to hide such an important part of your life and yourself. I'm with you. And so I think it comes down to- you know, it's your choice. What's the most important thing to you and where are they on the hierarchy?
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
But I will also tell you, the more you try and not disclose this, and I think you end up slipping and the longer it's been, the worse it looks and the worse everyone takes it. I don't know what, how everyone in the group dynamic will react to anything, but, and I also don't think it needs to be a, hey, everyone, I'm calling a meeting because I have an announcement.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
It's just more like if it comes up, it comes up. See what the reaction is. And if that changes the whole dynamic, then you know what? It feels like you're evolving. It feels like you're growing. You're evolving. You're becoming a new version of yourself. Follow it. Lean into it. Don't let the past keep you from living your best life.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
But I would also just at the same time... Don't put the pressure on yourself. Live the life you want to live. Yeah. What are your values? You believe in God. What do you... You're good. What are you... Right. And what's your interpretation of it? What are the values you want to live by?
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
And live that way. Instead of holding back from all these things you want, just go in and... Honestly, it's just living your life.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
It just feels like there's so much plotting almost, like what's the next move? It just feels like we're overthinking it and we're maybe trying to force this thing to work that is showing signs of not working. If someone brings out the worst side of you, that generally maybe means that they're not the best person to live the rest of your life with.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
I can understand having just an unbelievable connection with somebody. And a lot of times the people that are like oil and water have that unbelievable connection and just that wild relationship.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
I think as much as that is acting almost like a little bit of a drug where it's like, oh man, it just takes over me and it's just this unbelievable.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Well, and one of the, I think the biggest part that stood out to me from this is as much as that connection is so like, it's just fire. Everything is just crazy. The second your daughter's around is when you start to distance yourself from Yes, it may be a little early to integrate that, which is natural.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
But I'm just curious if you feel that you would do that semi-permanently where you'd want to keep them more at a distance because of the side of you she brings out or what the context is there. But the second you kind of want to start shielding your kid away from someone, if that is what you feel kind of for the long run, then that also is a big issue.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
I think for a lot of guys, it's easy to say, oh, I want to get married one day. I want to marry you. I want to have kids with you. I want to do all this. And you kind of paint this, in the current time, this superficial picture of what the future is going to be. I think a lot of times, maybe it can be used as a strategy to... Not necessarily lock someone down. To hook them?
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
I'll also say I've had friends describe relationships like this that they were in for a decent amount of time. And as soon as they were moved on and they found their person, they look back on this like,
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
wow yeah it was crazy but we were not right for each other it felt like it in the moment like man it was just so crazy but now that i'm with my person it is so nice to have good communication we're calm we we you know we with the kid they're a great second parent it just it all mellows out and that's kind of what you want in the long run
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
And so I just, I've known people to describe this and then see them on the other side and they're like, oh, wow. Yeah.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Yeah, to get them really to be yours. It does bond you in a way, I feel, when you agree that you both want to get married. Because it shows that, oh, we both want this level of commitment. We're both this serious about each other.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
But I think sometimes it can be what you're saying. It can be, oh, I really wanted to when I first met you and now not so much, but then it's like, okay, just rip the bandaid off. Then we go back to that episode and it's like, we'll just rip the bandaid off and get out of this thing if you don't want that.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
But I think a lot of times, Guys can say things like that. Oh, I want to marry you someday just to make sure that they are locked in. And then when push comes to shove, oh, well, we've been together two years. You know, our kids are integrated. Our lives are intertwined.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Well, now I'm going to pull back a little bit because I don't know if I really want to make that commitment now, but at least I have you and our whole family. Yeah.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Yeah, but it's more of a I want to marry you someday. It's not like I want to marry you now.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
Well, in the last question, like how do I deal with the feelings? I don't think you ever need to deal with the feelings. I think you need to decide what you ultimately want. Because there's, you shouldn't have to deal with the feelings of this. No, you don't want to.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
It's more, you either get married like you want or like you were saying, no, this is too special and too great to let just a wedding take that away from me.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
You know, you got to, or marriage rather.
Father Knows Something
167: Father Knows: Where's the Bar?!
You got to see really, you got to decide. what you want internally. And then you go and deal with the situation, but not the feelings. Cause you shouldn't be like stuck with those feelings and then living with that forever with regrets or resentment, or maybe it ends up being a deal breaker down the line. And then you, you, you know, you regret then I,
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Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Yeah, which is a hard part of like I have other weird things like I don't know what it's going to look like. But I think the biggest thing is like our worst case scenario is like life gets hard. We move back into my little town home because it is so small and it is so cheap. And we're doing that by weekly payments on both our houses.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So we know the mortgages are going to get paid off in less than their 30 year fixed loans, which is another thing of like we're hoping in like 25 years or once my student loans get paid off, take that extra cash and throw that into the mortgages more to help pay them down.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So the sooner those are cash flow and we can live off of those incomes is our 15 year, 20 year plan for sure is to start getting to that point. Because of what our jobs are.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
We are. I actually asked him like a week ago if he knew what his 401k was. And he said he guessed this. I'm like, oh, I should look into it. He's like, I will. And he just hasn't.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Yeah, no, I have a lot of anxiety around money. I check my account multiple times a day to make sure there's no surprise expenses and things like that, which he gets annoyed by because he can't surprise buy me things, even if we're very cheap, because I will see it within the day or get notifications on our cell phone. So I'm very much like, how much we're spending?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And I'll do our budget every three months being like, we need to save up more because we want to take a trip to Europe. So I'm like, okay, we got to reassess all our spendings. We can save more so we can do that or
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
christmas is coming so i'm sure we're saving money to buy all our extended family gifts and like i constantly am recalibrating our budget based on short-term goals i just have a hard time doing the longer term thinking that far ahead like what retirement will look like because i can't decide what i want to do do i want to live in my little house or do i want to live in like those really fancy like you know four seasons retirement communities where you just show up in a little apartment and they have a buffet that they feed you and all the activities like
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I go back and forth on that myself.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I guess I am. I didn't really think of it that way, but we kind of, we kind of are compared to like my little, what is it? My brokerage account and my IRA and stuff like that. I didn't really think of that because I feel like it's just always there, but yeah, that old, whole old fashioned thing about all your money's in real estate.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I'm like, no, all our money's in real estate, but at least let me know. One of them could be a quick sale. I'm just against the idea of selling them. Like I'm emotionally attached to my first house and I will never, like I told him, I don't care what else we do, but I'm never selling that. And he's like, we could just sell it super quick. I'm like, I know we could.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And almost more than double what I paid for it. type thing.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Okay, yeah, I've been kind of seeing different things online about like, if someone bought their house, I think it's like an FHA versus conventional thing of like, they bought their house during COVID, you can kind of assume the loan under those lower interest rates.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I've seen mixed reviews on like that or versus and there's stuff about like, if you have a good credit score, you're gonna have to pay more points to get an interest rate. I'm like, how much is that real versus fake? And I just kind of want to like, prepare myself. or that kind of stuff too, especially the conventional versus FHA stocks.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I know if we do the townhome round, there are rules around owner occupancy versus tenant occupancy, which can prevent you from getting one of those loans. I want to say I think it prevents the FHA loan for a townhome complex and stuff like that too.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Okay. I wasn't sure. I couldn't remember.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Yeah, the big thing is like, I think I originally had a plan to have a student loan should have been gone by next year. Like I had a whole plan between COVID and buying a house. I procrastinated them. And actually last summer I was laid off. And so I just got back into the workforce full-time myself a couple of months ago. So we, the whole like repayment plans changed up.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Like there's been no interest on them for the last few years, but I don't feel to make payments on them either. But for the most part, our rental income covers both our HELOC payments and my student loan payments. So I've been trying to hit those a lot harder now that I'm back employed and we didn't need to actually live off of our rental income for the past eight months or so, which has been nice.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
It sounds feasible. I kind of talk about that a lot of just because we have older families. I'm already like, how do we avoid taxes in real estate, all that stuff. And he gets really creeped out by like, no, we got to figure out living trust now. Like talk to your dad of like making sure we don't get settled with the taxes when he passes away. Cause he's not doing well. And my, I got grandparents.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I'm like, they're, they own a business. And it's like, my dad's siblings are going to assume this business when they pass away. And like, we start talking about this. Like my family is very medical. So we're like, yeah, we talk about death. Like on the regular and injuries and it just grosses him out. But I'm like, no, we gotta start thinking about this for ourselves now too.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And he just gets very, very queen. It's almost like, you know, you don't talk about these things in flight company. I'm like, but we have to talk about them. So it's always me trying to like push those conversations up until he like, it's just breaking point and has to walk away.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
yeah maybe that's the language he can i had to convince him for the life insurance when we got married and he fought that for so long like no we are young enough let's get life insurance early because he works in a tough industry like you can get in a car accident and i'll be screwed and like he bought that for months too like it's just like those insurance yeah you guys have low premiums on that
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
It sounds really good. I agree. Yeah. I still kind of struggle with just, I understand the concept of the stock market. My biggest issue is like, how do I live off my dividends and not get taxed on the capital gains of that?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Like the one thing I've not been able to understand conceptually, I've had to mildly cash out some stuff from like old employer stock options to, we had some major car issues we had to fix. I'm like, buy a couple thousand dollars. I can cash that out in investments as like an emergency fund. We were younger and like, we didn't pay taxes on it. So it was just a low amount, but like,
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
living off the dividends of my investments. I'm like, how do I do that? How do I know I have enough? Because I don't want to just be selling stocks. I'd rather live off the dividends of my stocks instead of having them being reinvested now. I just don't understand what that looks like or what that could look like down the road if they're going to make changes to that process.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I have a traditional IRA. It was from, I rolled over all of my old prior employers for one case into an IRA. If I got laid off, I didn't want them holding it. So just my bank had an IRA options. Like I can roll it in here. I can.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Hi, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
divvy it up onto like S&P 500 and a few other stocks that I'm personally just like curious about the companies type thing and a little art some REITs and things like that it's where it's all sitting in so it's currently more more real estate real estate investment this is what I was brought up on like I'm a product of my own upbringing is all about the real estate will you keep us posted with what that magic number that you guys come up with oh for sure I think we're gonna fight over that
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I can do it like both ways. I'm like, Ooh, we can, how cheap can we live and how nice can we live? And like, I can do, my brain does both. That's my biggest issue is like, I can find a way to make both work. And it's just, and he just kind of, he goes along with a lot of my plans, which is super great. But I'm like, what do we really need and want?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Like we want to travel a lot more, but also live as inexpensively as possible. It's like our two and traveling is expensive. And it's just, those seem two very conflicting ways to do life to me.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I think it's going to be more expensive than I anticipated. I'm a little scared.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
It's true. I like plans. I like knowing.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Oh, probably family stuff. Like my dad was super, he tried to do long-term planning. So he mentioned he's in the fix and flip industry. So my whole childhood was him like from 2000, Oh, in the nineties, we had like rental properties. Like I remember being seven years old, we're cleaning out apartments. We'll be able to pick somebody and scrubbing like cigarette smoke off the walls type stuff.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Sure. So it's a little convoluted. So back in like 2016, fresh out of college, got my first big girl adult job. One of my goals was to just buy a house instead of constantly moving apartments every couple of years. So little saving scrapping, bought a cute little town home and where I lived very, very 80s and my family's in the kind of fix and flip construction world.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
But then he got, he got into this up and coming area that was like outside of the major city, but they were building a new hospital and it was closer to the airport. He's like, we're going to buy these little like two bedroom ranchers and fix them up. And his whole plan was to sell them to the incoming doctors and nurses for this new hospital that was being built. And it was like long-term plan.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
It sounded great, but between.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
2003 and 2008 we did a house a year and it was just my siblings and my dad like we were there's a family of five of us and we were the workforce doing it and it was like every year it's like you couldn't sell them so you'd rent them and he had some buddies who's borrowing the money from to buy another cheap house for like $80,000 and we renovate it on our weekends and school holidays and
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
year after year is doing that. And then 2008 hit and all of our money was in real estate and it crashed. And like, it's, it's paid off now. They actually now, they now live in that area where they were renovating these houses back in 08. And the price of these houses are just absolutely insane. It's like the long-term plan made sense. It didn't work out.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And it's like, it's all he thought was the long-term down the road of like, this will be our retirement. This is how we're going to live. Like we could, but we couldn't pay our electric bill. Like we were at LLC, like he pay us for the weekends of working and we've gotten separate bank accounts. Cause that's another, some weird tax thing with that.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I remember we had bank accounts that he created for us and paid us for our weekends and then like, oh, we can't afford to pay the heat for the house we lived in. So we're going to borrow the money from you guys. It was like seven or $800. to pay the bills type thing. And it was very much Robbie Peter to pay Paul. I think we had four mortgages on the house we were living in.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
It was, it was, he was, all he was was long-term type stuff.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Yeah. As we all do with trauma.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I graduated high school, my parents were going bankrupt. So it was like, our quotas, we got poor at the right time because it made college a lot less expensive for my siblings and I, but like we had to be scrappy for years. I'm like, I can be scrappy. That's all and more I know how to do now. So trying to like relax in the peace of having money and comfort, it feels, it feels very weird.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I think you remind yourself like, oh, no, life's good. We are okay. We are safe and it's, it'll be fine. Like even me being laid off, I'm like, no, we were okay with me being laid off for like six months, just moving to a new state and living there.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
well below the poverty line, but could not qualify for any financial help in California, which was very, very weird for the cost of living out here and how little my husband was making. Yeah.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So bought a little help from my parents. And then we spent about Four years, gradually renovating it, nothing major, like new tile in the shower, new cabinets in the kitchen, very minor, some new paint, better light fixtures type of thing. And then I got married and my husband moved into that house with me.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I think trying to figure out, um, actually burn rate feels better than what it was. Like, I feel like we've been, we're in this recovery period. So I feel pretty good about that. I'm especially knowing more about like different options, but it was too, too on buy down. Like if we wanted to buy a house of like, how can I do it?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Like every other person, like I want to buy the nicest thing for as inexpensive as possible, but. type stuff, but then knowing like the options for like how to calculate the numbers for retirement, like what that actually could look like off of our current living situation would be, is really helpful to make sure.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Cause I think that is something he occasionally worries about, but I'm like, it's fine. We have all this other stuff that will come in, but maybe I shouldn't be relying on my family's LLC or his supposed inheritance. I think his dad might be inflating, but we do know it's a house that it's going to need a ton of work. Cause it's from the sixties and that's going to be a mess, but yeah.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I want to safeguard us from that. So I want to safeguard from something bad going wrong with an influx.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
For sure.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Well, thank you. This has been wonderful. I've enjoyed chatting with you. I've been loving your podcast and your books for years.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
A little like meeting your heroes moment in the best way.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
No, this has been better than I thought. I was a little nervous and this was just a fun little conversation. I enjoyed it.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Good luck. Tell me if you need me. Just patch me in. Stay here, stay. I'll just IM you. It's fine.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And then once COVID hit with the interest rates being super low and we're both like living at home and thousand square feet was not quite enough for us anymore. So we wanted a bigger house and we were unsure of like where our life was. Like we're newly married, unsure of like, do we want kids? We wanted to live a little bigger. And then we found this huge master plan community that was being built.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
outside of the city and we're like, well, we can go there. Cause it was great deals on houses. We had like a couple of floor plans and with interest rates being so low, we just kind of like took advantage of that. Cashed out a HELOC on my first property, rented it out, moved there, lived in that for about three years. It had an unfinished basement. So then we renovated that.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So we turned this three bedroom house into a four bedroom house for two people. So it just seems like too much house, the two of us, but then he got a job opportunity that then picked us up and moved us out to California where we're currently living and we're renting out both our houses.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And we're still in this weird limbo of like, we only want to move back and we'll eventually just move back into one of our current houses first. But we're like, one's a little too small. One seems a little too big.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So we're trying to like maybe be able to buy another house in a couple of years when interest rates come down a little bit more and just have like our own mini like housing real estate empire is like our new joke of like, we're going to be those people and we can retire him early and he can outmanage them.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
We can just kind of live off of those instead of having to deal with the uncertainty of the stock market for our retirement or have it supplemented retirement. in 20 years time when those mortgages are paid off is kind of where we're sitting. But now it's like, how do we figure out saving for a house? Cause he doesn't want to do the HELOC thing again. Like that still terrifies him of like, why?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Nothing. He just didn't let you just like the idea of having debt. Like he was brought up in those like cash only houses. So I had to teach him. We got married. I'm like, here's how credit scores work. Here's how to get a credit card. Like I had to help buffer him along.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Nope. He's been here his whole life. His dad was just like some old accountant. That's just the way he was just brought up. It was like cash only, which was great. We first met, like he was great at savings, bought his first car for like $8,000 when he was 21 years old type thing. So it's a really big hook for me. It's like, Ooh, he's great at savings. I had no clue how to do that at the time.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So that was a good hook, but he just had no idea how credit works. And he just hates the idea of getting into debt. I'm like, but you can use this money to your advantage. But since we still have our HELOC for my first home and we're paying that off. On top of having two mortgages, but all that money comes out of a rental income. So it's not our actual cash out of pocket.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
He doesn't want to either extend another loan or he's just worried about being dead eyeballs. Like the 2008 recession type thing, I think caught his family off guard as well. I think he just has like this fear of being in over his head at the same time.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
No. With our big house, we managed to do a 20% down payment because he found out about private mortgage insurance. And he's like, that's a scam. I don't want to deal with that. But like the reality of the market is we probably won't be able to do that again, putting that much down in the house.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And so that's his other big issue is like, we spent too much time on Zillow looking at houses and playing around with the numbers. It's like, oh, we can buy this right now. And I'm like, do we really want to buy that? I'll need to renovate this. Like we, he just went full bore from being like, you buy the one family home to pick a fence. And now I'm just like, we're renovating.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
We converted his way of thinking with my family's weird. it's the money you play with it and this, and we fix it up. And now he's gone full down that rabbit hole. When we first met, he was totally against the idea of painting a house is too much work type. Yeah. It's like he was against it. I was like all for this one equity type thing. I don't know.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Correct.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
No, we've been pretty fortunate where my little townhome is, it's a college town. So there's a lot of influx of like young students. And we've been fortunate because both my mortgages are so low that we can actually rent under the market.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So we can be a little bit more choosy with our tenants and also not have someone feel strapped for cash, which makes me feel better knowing that like with life uncertainties is like, I don't have someone like missing their rent either. So we were playing a little.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Short with the numbers, but I feel better knowing that someone's in there, the bills are getting paid and I get a little extra in my pocket to cover in case something breaks. And we call that good versus gouging out the market on that. So it's over, it's been pretty good where other houses, it's a huge oil and gas industry out there.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So a lot of people are moving in and out with the influx of that. And it's just a lot of like the hospitals are nearby being built and those kind of things. So we've got a good pool to cover both ends of the market. Like we have like right now, our current one tenants, like a college student. working on like her doctorate degree. And it's a family of like four, I think.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And the husband works in the oil and gas industry and the wife's a teacher and they seem pretty happy with staying so far. So I'm like, I have no problem with keeping them on as long as they want to stay.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
You said they were really low. So for big house, we bought it right at the end, like September of 2020. So we were just under that. I think we're like right at that 2%, two and a half percent mark. And then my townhome, I've refinanced a couple times. When I first bought it, I just wanted to buy a house, so I had an adjustable rate.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Then we refinanced, and then we refinanced again for the HELOC on it. I think that's at like 3.2%. Okay.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So for this... My husband on that one is like, 4% is the greatest interest rate, 5% is great, and he just won't take it. I'm like, no, you're going to have to accept that. We're going to buy again, like,
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
I think it'd be more of like a live-in long time. I'm a little over moving. I was doing the math and we've moved four times in about four years. And I'm just like a little sick of that. We figured if we moved back to Colorado, we'd probably go back to one of our houses if leasing...
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
timing works out so we can just sit and we can like spend six months and like hunker down and figure out our budget and then find another, probably another townhouse actually, like less upkeep of like the maintenance and the landscaping because we're not outdoorsy people, which was a big learning curve.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
With the first house in the suburbs, our husband realized that he wanted a big yard for that stereotype and he realized he hated mowing the lawn. I'm like, yeah, I refuse to do it too. And I told him from the jump that I didn't want to mow a yard.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So we might go more a town home type route again, just for simplicity's sake, but I think it'd be more of like a permanent permanent home that we can live in under, under our means and then be like that retirement homes. We can just live off of our incomes when the other two mortgages get paid off down the road.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Yeah, it's just the trash. They do it, they bill it annually. So I just like did the math. I'm like, it's like $300 for the year and it just covers trash pickup is all it is.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
Yeah, I actually think that sounds higher than what I... I've been like seeing, if anything left over just goes in the savings, I think we're putting less in the savings. So that seems a really good number.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
thousand dollars so that's sixty four thousand dollars approximately when do you think you'll retire how old are you guys now uh i am 34 and he's 33 but you mentioned you your husband might want to retire in 20 years is that right yes yeah so he's in the beer industry which is just very physically demanding on his body like one of our like joking things is i can make over 85k a year myself
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
He can retire and be like a house husband. Like that's one of our low key kind of fun plans because he's just this job. Like he loves the industry. He loves brewing. He enjoys doing it, but it's just so hard on his body. And I'd rather have him functioning for longer as just like a healthy adult. So if we can retire him early or he can do something more like a part time earlier on in life.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And then we can stay home and take care of me because he's in like the baking and cooking and like all that stuff. So I'm like, I have no problem work. Yeah, I'm so spoiled. It's great.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
For sure.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
We have. We kind of go back and forth on like what it could be. Like he has some family property that he's supposed to inherit. He's going to share with his brother in like Sounds morbid. Like honestly, in like 10, 15 years, he'll come into another house himself that him and his brother will share ownership of.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
And then my family extended for me is like an LLC where we have seven or eight rental properties that my dad manages along with other like franchise investments and stock markets that my siblings and I will also inherit from them. So I know down the line that will also increase and grow as well.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
How to Use Your Budget Now to Meet Your Future Financial Goals
So it's hard to like really come up with a hard and fast number knowing we both have like other assets that we will end up inheriting in down the road as well. So I have a hard time being like, oh, yeah, we just need our 401ks to hire. I know I have other stuff coming in that could be up to like the million dollar plus range, depending on how inflation shakes out in like 20 years time.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
127 - UFO Encounters, Mothman Conspiracies, & Giant Exploding Rockets
Okay, you win. But I'll do what I have to do.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
127 - UFO Encounters, Mothman Conspiracies, & Giant Exploding Rockets
Well, well, well. Look who decided to show up.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
127 - UFO Encounters, Mothman Conspiracies, & Giant Exploding Rockets
I thought you had the trip to Barb- Gone to the girls' trip in Barbados? Yeah. I thought so too. Until I found this. Where? Where did you find this? You know good and well where I found it. Where you hide all your other goodies. You went through my things.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
144 - Hollow Earth Cult, Alien Encounters, & Crop Circle Conspiracies
Well, I think if you want to have a fun time, I would go to floridatorrida.com and I would just, I would just, I would, I would, I would, I would, I would, I would, I would, I would get tickets.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
144 - Hollow Earth Cult, Alien Encounters, & Crop Circle Conspiracies
Well...
Ninjas Are Butterflies
131 - The Nuclear Vela Incident, Friendship Aliens & Skinwalkers
It seems like it was always accurate as well.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
131 - The Nuclear Vela Incident, Friendship Aliens & Skinwalkers
We know about it? Yes. Bermuda Triangle? No. The blob?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
131 - The Nuclear Vela Incident, Friendship Aliens & Skinwalkers
It's called the friendship case.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
131 - The Nuclear Vela Incident, Friendship Aliens & Skinwalkers
I love it. And flagged.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Okay. Like the newest updates. Cause we talked about, we've been taught. We, yeah, we talked about the telepathy in the last week. We talked about something else with it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
You see my face. You're like, oh, I'm feeling sick. Something in the air.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
There's no hope for like real growth or anything. It was just, yeah, sustaining out. That's a bummer.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
No, it was just like I just woke up feeling like junk, and then it came out of my body, and I felt better. So I went to work, and...
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
You say go to this place while he's sleeping or mentally?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah. And it's good. Is it being tested like them following up with these people meeting? Yeah. Yeah.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
So like they're touching base with all these people and somehow they've never had contact with each other.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
The top, yeah. Like, the acid stuff, it came through, like, my throat. Oh, so you threw up. No, like, no, I don't...
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Have we seen the videos of them doing the pad touching?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah. Okay. That's amazing. That's really incredible. Because every time I hear the hill, what do you guys think of? A city on a hill. Oh, yeah. It's like that's immediately what I thought of when it was called the hill. I'm like, oh, that's how Jesus talks about it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Because if this is real, if it is true, then why aren't we talking about it? What is science? Why isn't this on the news?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
i'm just saying i don't know what that is so i'm just telling you like it just came out of my mouth and like it was a bunch of like mush and yeah that's throw old waste mush let's throw up guys you're making me nauseous i didn't even throw it went down mostly what do you mean it went down i didn't i didn't touch at all it didn't throw anywhere i didn't throw it up and i just it fell down it was more like a fell down oh okay yeah i fell down yesterday into the toilet
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
See, that's the thing. NDEs and this have so much crossover. And they're completely different experiments. Oh, that's so trippy. Now, I have a conspiracy that might tag along to something in the future with this kind of realm.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
they're saying we can start manipulating dreams now yeah what if the government were to ever create a object where they could locate people in different areas show them images of whatever that whatever it is hoping that like people when people start talking start sharing their experiences and stuff like that like who knows
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I mean, like, people, I mean, could you drop in, like, if the government, this is just the wildest, like, movie sci-fi idea, but the government wants to plan, like, some type of attack, right? And, or something big's gonna happen, and if people are able to, like, predict it somehow and start talking about it, and then suddenly it becomes true? Like, I don't know.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
There's just a lot of power in that.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
And then with the Cuba thing, sending, you know, certain frequencies. Yeah. I mean, to actually cause bodily harm and stuff.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
And is that why it's not big news? Because like, okay, so what can we do with it?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Is it like big phone companies? They're just like, listen, if they can communicate with just their mind, we're out of the business.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I'm just imagining having a conversation telepathically in a room, and then you're not laughing in your mind, so you would verbally laugh. I think that's just hilarious. If we're in heaven and we're all just speaking telepathically, telling jokes, and we're just laughing constantly, it would look insane.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
and she walks away and comes back and just stares at it and just was was that like her first acknowledgement of like throwing up i think so that's a crazy moment to like we could as adults experience that for the first time i think that would be so traumatic yeah i have such a i i i'm a weird i have a phobia or something puking i hate it
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Now that it's being factually shown, this is a real deal. It's like, okay, these stories don't sound as crazy as it... Yeah, we should just accept that it's real now. It should be a normal thing.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah. How could you not? I mean, that's like pure denial at that point. It's like, that's especially your own kid.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
And that's the thing. We can't we can't hold on to that guilt. Like if we truly do want to make change, if this stuff is legit, then it's like we may have a like not a cure, but like something like that help them communicate with their families.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
And if they know that it's safe to do so and that they're not alone and like I just can't imagine the torture knowing stuff about your family that you wish you could tell the police.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
But you're in your body. You can't like that's so horrifying.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I didn't mean cure. That's like, yeah, that's a total gift.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Actually, never mind.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Dude, I want... This is a perfect military movie, dude. You hired this one guy that can read the minds of the terrorists and stuff like that?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Oh, I hate touching or picking up in the house with the dogs, the kids. It sends me. And Kelsey thinks I'm such a wuss probably because I'm literally every time I do it, I'm like, I'll do it. But I can't help my bodily reactions. I'm like... You remember the first time you had the runs? The runs? I don't remember the first time.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I'm telling you, there was this one time where I was literally sitting all the way across the room. She was laying down. She was asleep for the past hour. And then I was just like, I just got done, finished with something. I closed my laptop. And then I was like, in my head,
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
maybe i should go for a walk with pico and then no joke i'm just and then she's not i'm not even looking at her i just see her head look over and just turn and it was these scary and then she got up and she walked over it i'm like this is i don't i don't like this did you think walk i agree with that what is pico's voice She's Pico, so I just imagine she's just like this old Mexican lady.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, so she's my little senorita. Every time I say siesta, she runs into bed. It's perfect.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Frankie. Oh, my goodness.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Family vlogger.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Do we need, like, every time you say that, do we just need an organ? I need a butt. It's like a little tick of yours.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
And the psychiatrist lady, she hates men.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Hates men.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I can vividly remember the first time I had a bad diarrhea thing when I was a kid. And it was horrifying.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
They kick the 17-year-old boy out because he has a sin they believe is causing these manifestations. They kick their 17-year-old boy out of the house.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Oh, nice. We need that on a t-shirt.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
And I think he was completely brainwashed. Like he did not believe when the police were like laying out all the evidence against her. He had been gone away for a year working on himself, being like in a terrible way. And he's looking at it and he's saying she didn't do this. It took him so long.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Maybe I fell down too hard yesterday.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
and she wrote i will i will try to get this demon out of you even if it kills you that's what she wrote down yeah she wrote i will not feed a demon yeah it's like what are we doing she was literally sick in the head like that's something like you don't that's a lot of that's a i don't know it's kind of weird anyway this is a bad feelings documentary it's like the same crap that just happened up the road here yeah no i know yeah that and she was in our end um
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, like it became a business. Making millions.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
She let that out on the video.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
it really gets super nasty and abusive it's wild yeah i hated it so much yeah but it was like one of those things the twists and turns and i love that the daughter's now like she's like a big campaigner for anti-family vlogging yeah yeah which is great speaking of family vlogging though we gotta go anywhere and we will talk about something happier after this okay
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
They're like a sugar pill. I think FDA has to... Everything's on the back of the bottle, so I don't know. Actually, let's just pause the pod right now and go to the Walgreens and pick up some. Let's get to the bottom of this. It's me who's going to get to... That's three in a row. This is getting crazy.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Sundaycool.com forward slash stickers, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Rank your vegetables right now if you're so pro. Also, we all saw you hit yourself in the face with the headphone there.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Oh, no way. That's dope.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That's awesome.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That's great. We have some pretty great fans. We got sent a cutting board. I got one sent specifically for me, and we got one for Nav. Pretty dope. I'll try to send you the name of the guy.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Don't. You don't whine about it. You got everything.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Someone sent you $10,000 last week and said, just because. Yeah, so? I don't want money. I want a gift. Also, speaking of gifts, we should upload the video of Lily riding on that go-kart.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, she's like, now I get it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, the close-up?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
So good. Very fun. Very fun. That girl's going to have the wildest memories growing up. Yeah.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That literally would never have happened without Magic Mind.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Speaking of wild, question, corner, question, corner, question, corner, with Lily, where the questions are fresh out of my...
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Next month.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
April. You're a dirty liar. You're a liar.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
you didn't know that i did anyway all right this is a good question i have my i have my answer but it's so good so you guys gotta do weapon of choice you're thinking you're carrying around this everywhere you don't want like a gun probably mine's obvious what i've been shooting yeah i've been shooting a bow a bow you can make arrows you don't run out of ammo really Give me some ideas.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
What are some of the best ones out there?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
A spear would be cool. Lightsaber. It's got to be real, right?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
The opposite of limitless. She said nothing. Well, then I find the Iron Man suit. When I said lightsaber, she said nothing.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
If I... I don't know why I'm... Thor's hammer. I don't know why I'm gravitating towards just like two metal boxing gloves with spikes on it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I don't know. That's the first thing I pictured when I like personal weapons. So I think that's what I'm going to stick with. Just... Dang. Like whole cans, but for war.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I'm going to wear them all the time. I'm walking through the woods with just metal fists. You obviously don't want a gun. Yeah, no.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Oh, that's true. Yeah, you're right. It is a zombie apocalypse. That's true.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I can't do the fist thing now. All right. Yeah, maybe a samurai sword. That's where my first guess went. Like, I can't swing it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
What? What if it's Trump just doing a trumpet sound? That's his Louis Armstrong.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That's dumb. I would take a whip with a guillotine blade on the end of it. So I would just whip people from like 30 feet away and it would just...
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
But it's got to be at the right angle.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
It's all about the person. Have you not seen those videos of them using the same sword and they can't cut through it and then the one guy comes up and he's actually good and then he does it one slice and it's just completely perfect.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That's why I think a hatchet. A hatchet for you. Like a really dope hatchet.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Like a double-edged, double-sided hatchet.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Bro. That's not okay. That's a real face? Yep. That was good. I hated every part of that.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Dude. I just feel... I'm going to go to get tested now.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That was...
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
When they say the warning on sushi when it's like consuming raw or undercooked.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I can't believe that's real. I'm going to have to fact check that. Look it up. I don't know if I want to.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
We can't... Every time you say flag, we don't get flagged.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
This is insane. So the guy who sings, you've got a friend in me.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
What was that, man?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Are you okay?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Listen, if a woman could be a pediatrician, pediatricians aren't doctors.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
It was funny. As soon as Josh heard about it, he was really offended.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That was a quote I just read.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Who hurt you, Randy Newman? What small person hurt you?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Kind of crazy that Disney like literally has him like write so much music and he's got that just out there. Like it's so weird. It's like I don't understand the audience for it. No. You know short people can also listen. They can hear this music as well. They're fully aware of this song. Too short to listen. Ain't got no ears.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
for no reason imagine if someone wrote a song like that today it would be just cancelled so quick I don't know if he did comedy music back then but it didn't seem like he did I don't know if you're a comedy artist I get that but golly he's got a vendetta dude this time change caught me in a bind for real though I can't stand this time change did anyone even know it was happening I did. I did not.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Oh, no.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I mean, because I'm an adult.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Figured you could handle it. Huh?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, what?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Nineveh. He wanted to go to Tarshish. Tosh-ish. Tosh-ish. I want to go to Tosh-ish, eh? Yeah, I want to go to Tosh-ish. Right in front of God, you see. Big Stone, throw me overboard. Maybe it won't stop.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Dude, it's the worst. Anything to do with splinters or anything like that? It's been a nightmare.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Okay, so it still could be underneath?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
It's like a big old kiln.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Untranslated.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Why don't we just put our best people on it?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
For real. I wonder if they're. Dude, I'm telling you. But that's the thing. AI now. That's just going to make it so easy.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Quantum computers. We're going to have all this stuff translated in no time. Hopefully.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I'd imagine they would make that a priority.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
A jigsaw? Ooh. Hello, my honey. Hello, my jigsaw.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Now, why are they burning it? I guess it's just common. You remove everything. But golly, is there not... Just pillage and plunder.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Read all about it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I'll just look at my phone. Imagine they raise the text, all that. Everything just blacks out.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
It's just interesting.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, I just love that. I also I don't know why I was like it was like two weeks ago. I was on a map and I just saw the city of Nineveh on the map. And I'm like, I got to see this. And that's just Google image, like just the street view. It's hilarious. I'm like, it's crazy that such an epic story from the Bible.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
And there's just like restaurants and little markets right on the beach and everything like that. Like literally where Jonah was probably spit out on the beach. Yeah, I mean, I think it's incredible. That's how much we've just moved on past. I want to go there so bad, dude.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That's really interesting.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
It didn't say how he got into that, like at the beginning, like how his surge of knowledge. Yeah.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I was also reading just the genealogy. Somehow they just skip over generations, like without mentioning them. And I always thought that was interesting. I don't know the exact reason why some are cut out and whatnot, but... It's because they didn't have a son.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. There were some that just, it was a bad generation, as they would call them. But, I mean...
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Could you imagine? They're getting ancient knowledge. It's bad ancient knowledge, though. Yeah.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
It was kind of wild. It was very malicious.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Star Wars.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
They're made for wars in the stars? You're saying we were making a product for our intergalactic client? Yeah.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
So they're just literally taking these possibly and just blowing up a star or a black hole? What are they doing?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That was good.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
When you said freeze light, I thought you meant literally freeze it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Like some type of like, I literally just went to ice. I was just like freeze. And I'm like, I open up my cooler and like.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, so you're saying like literally stopping mid-motion, I mean, existence, light?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Very strange indeed. I don't know how to say it, but... You know, you ever just mess up on a word on the pod and then you just hope everyone just goes right on past it? No one heard that.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, I mean, you know all those words. So think of a slushie, right? It's got ice. It's kind of hot, but then it's also kind of like smooth liquid. Do you think they were able to look at it, though? Like see it? I mean, you had to have. It's light. Come on, dude. It's light. You can't see all light. But they did chill it to zero.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
So we are correct in our thinking. Like a Slurpee. Like a Slurpee.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Hey, speaking of not being on TikTok, you know who is on TikTok? It's going to blow your mind. Someone who hasn't been in the limelight for years for good reason. Oh, she knows. Oh, you know. Casey Anthony is back on big time.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
You know what? A consultant.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Hey, she's an expert in the law.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I know how to get away with things. Imagine literally just getting arrested and saying, I'm waiting for my lawyer and then having Casey Anthony show up.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
she got so much backlash I I don't think she's posted another video has she I don't know I think all it was to it was supposed to go to her other thing so it worked out well she just dropped a grenade and left yeah that's like hey if you want to know more about me come to this you know this uh social media or whatever website That story is crazy. It's nutso.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
We'll do a full dive on that on Patreon maybe because it's just so dark and long. That one I could talk about forever.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That's pretty dope. It wasn't a cop though.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Dude, I mean, she's guilty. As soon as she drove those cops to Universal, walked down the hallway saying, yeah, I work here, and then walks all the way into the part where they work, and she turns around and says, all right, I was lying. I don't actually work here. She had stopped working there for three years. That's the first thing she does after her kid goes missing?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
How is that not an immediate straight to jail?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
so long i don't want to sit here anymore james i'm sorry i love you but please that sounds like a marketing yeah it does i mean also yeah like bias like you don't well she's probably just proud of him like i cry every time you launch a new episode it's so beautiful that's great yeah i don't know i'm not excited about it i guess we will have to do another bet on it though
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I mean, I don't want to go see it, but I know I do. Visually, it's so fun to watch. That's the only reason to go.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
The storyline! The build-up of all the characters for all this lore?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
The Avatar universe? No, this one, you know how the last one had water? This one's gonna have fire. Real cool, James. Dude, I'm stoked for it. Where's Titanic 2?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
He's holding an axe. There was room for me.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
thing about Hawaii that supposedly wrapped filming like two years oh yeah that story about the ancient Hawaii or whatever like the unification of the islands it could be still probably the writer's strike yeah dude did you see the Lilo and Stitch trailer I did not yet it's so good we watched it twice last night except for they dropped the H word in the middle of the trailer I'm like would you stop Hawaii yeah Hawaii I was like don't we don't need rub it in our face okay yeah
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Absolutely. And this, you know, for the past couple of weeks, we've been posting some behind the scenes footage that you're never going to see. We also have a private discord. Also, last Friday, we did a live on our Patreon. Yeah. Really fun. Very fun. Very fun. You could be a part of that as well if you go to there.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
And also, if you need custom shirts, stickers, or anything, cool little hats, hoodies, whatever it may be, go to sundaycool.com. We work there. You should order your stuff from here then so we can kiss every one of your shirts before we put it in the box. Good luck. Good luck.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, because we got some new stuff. On Patreon, you can already see the new designs.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, what's your zombie apocalypse weapon? Better be good and it better be realistic.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
We're all a family. We love you.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
That would be a good four square. Four square five.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
No. Do I look it? Sick with it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I did throw up yesterday, but I just woke up with just like a weird, yeah, I don't know. What?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Did I say? I meant Trinity. That's true. That's Latin for. That's where it comes from. The tri.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Triology.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I think it's just what you just said on record. I mean, there's literally millions, hundreds of millions of people that are just witnessing.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, probably.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, this is really unfortunate.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Listen, I love Peter Jackson more than the next guy. More than the next guy. Unless the next guy is Peter Jackson. Unless the next guy is Peter Jackson. Melissa next guy is Peter Jackson. But still not putting him over the Godhead.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Guys, I have news. I have news. I actually went to the doctor last week. Cancer! They diagnosed I'm sick with it. Sick with it. Sick with it.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Yeah, but she did.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
Can you sit down for me for a second?
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
It's always tough.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
I always start off those conversations with simply just like one, we have to fully understand. We will never fully understand. Like, so it's like, it's never going to make sense to us.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
134 - Alien Nukes, Ancient Libraries, & The Dark Story of Ruby Franke
But over time, God will reveal certain things that, you know, like, oh, wow, I didn't even see it that way. A different perspective, different lens. And it'll just be more clear. And it's also an experience. It's a relationship thing, too.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
121 - The Drones Have Been Here Before, Telepathy, and New Nuclear Tech
I know. Like a boss. Well, yeah, somebody crocheted that. They were knitting in her prison. So I can.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
121 - The Drones Have Been Here Before, Telepathy, and New Nuclear Tech
I know every fact about that story.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
121 - The Drones Have Been Here Before, Telepathy, and New Nuclear Tech
It was a bitch.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
121 - The Drones Have Been Here Before, Telepathy, and New Nuclear Tech
Yeah.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
It's childlike.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
Okay, cozy.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
Ooh. Ooh. Cozy.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
Yes. Hi.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
It was really good.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
Do you think they're going to say, all hail Trump? Beep, boop, bop.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
I know I'm a woman, but I really think we should take away all women's rights.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
Actually, you're right. I do want to apologize.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
Especially the orphans. Don't get me started on those needy little brats. Whoa! The orphans needy little brats.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Ringworm? Now we're just doing the blue ointment commercial. Blue syrup ointment.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
But I'm imagining your sister just so I can really feel the situation.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
It can be, sure. Or it just looks different than what people are... I don't like your word unsightly, is what I'm saying.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
That is not the type of language that's going on in the car with this bumper sticker.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Wait, yeah, let me double check. It's that, right? It's just someone I love has eczema.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Okay, now then you, so how far into the journey do you decide to get the bumper sticker? And then once you have the bumper sticker, do you present the bumper sticker? Like, look, hey, I got this. Or was there talk of it before you put on the car? Or do you not mention it and just hope that your sister sees it?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
So they're just sending those out probably. Maybe you get one in the mail.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Okay, it's so weird. This is so twisted because the thought I had is more similar to that. The picture in my head was that the person that had eczema saw the bumper sticker and felt very complicated and mixed about it. Yeah. And didn't maybe think or talk about it with the ex of my person. And it might not have landed how they had hoped. That's what was in my head. But that's not it.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
On that note, I have one thing that I've been dying to tell you, but it's negative.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Or someone I love has... Yeah, you would think twice about it.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Well, no. The fact that we're even... The fact that I even brought it up as something novel is just proof to exactly what you're saying.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Well, can I get that out of the way? Yeah. Then we go into astrology. It's a doozy. But then maybe we lift it up about what we hope for the year.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Yeah, but that's not what we're here for. Let's complain. Yeah.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Did any of the astrological stuff of last year come true for you? Because I'm starting to feel like all of this astrology stuff is really flimsy. You know, I'm not really a believer.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Okay. Aliens is so much more plausible than astrology.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I think there are some people that can get just as hurt from really believing in astrology. Like they're mapping out their days because of how they're reading their thing. I think it could be very influential on people's lives if you let it.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I don't think that my gears have been ground so hard before. Wow.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
And as groups of people and like groups of like three week times of when our birthday is.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Let's get on to 2025. If you want to answer the question I actually asked, did anything come true for us, what you thought, because of astrology in 2024? Or if the answer is no, that's probably how I would have guessed it if I was a gambling man. But talk to me about 2025. Maybe a little bit of the astrology, but like just...
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
This was like last week. We're on holiday break, and I was going to Sprouts. I remember it vividly to get some Chica's Chips, best tortilla chips in the game.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
That's one line? Yeah. More joy, comma, get messy. What does that mean to you?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I was on a busy street and there's a bike lane on that street. Great. Love bike lanes.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Because... It's not bad. And what you're... I just find that that's funny that that was your takeaway from the last 24 hours. And I understand parts of it. And I do think there's something valid in what you're saying.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
There's a type of person that likes to bike with their young children on their bike.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I can't actually see you volunteering at a nursing home. I'm really finding that rewarding, actually.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
How are you going to go about finding out what the deal is? I'm going to call... Hey, what's the deal?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
If I want to volunteer, is that kind of the thing?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Do you think that you're, I don't want you to feel like you have to, I actually just don't even want you to share your whole list right now.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
But are you going to share your list with me or are they even a little more private than that?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I might sometimes, and I appreciate it, sometimes it's like eco-conscious people that maybe shop at Whole Foods. But you know the type and you know the like rigs they have on their bike.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
You wouldn't have to, but I'm just curious how much they would inspire me.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
But like they got their lights, they got everything. But like, I don't know, I feel like they're like Whole Foods type people sort of.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Okay, my problem with those type of goals, like the bigger ones, is that I sometimes am cleaning up my notes app on my phone and I find those lists from years past and they're heartbreaking because... Because it's basically just lists of how wildly you didn't achieve these goals, like how far off they are. So it's like heartbreaking to see these lists.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
So I'm saying now, granted, I didn't write down every day those goals, which maybe I should. Maybe that would have been a little more helpful. But so that's just what I'm saying is like I sometimes shy away from those goals because I know that they can be painful to see later. Yeah. That being said, I'm going into this year. The big thing for me is optimism. I just want to be real.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Really optimistic. And that can definitely mean of what can happen with things. What can happen with projects? What can happen with stuff I'm putting energy towards? So that I'm with you, sort of, if that makes sense.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
But as far as goals, I also like other goals that are more tangible, like doing Pilates twice a week, having sex three to four times a week. All that kind of stuff, right?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
So... Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. That being said, I've seen the viral clips on Instagram and TikTok about the like, write your goals down every single morning, which part of me wants to give that a try just to see what that's like. Because I've definitely never done anything like that, where it's every day you're writing down in the thing.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Oh, you're thinking like a family class. every just once like a one-off or like let's go do this instead of kind of our rote things that we do now our son got like a little national geographic like spinning pottery wheel kit yes now he crushed it and made like a little thing it's i'm so impressed when setting up i got a little moment on it and i did feel like oh i could be good at this
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Here's the problem. It is such a messy hobby.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
What about my dry hands though? I don't think it's helping.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Then you make a great point of it not being at the house that you have to deal with.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
No, we're going to have like a kiln and everything.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Okay, let's get to your oil for a second. What on this list is oil painting related?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
So I'm wondering, like, what, are you going to continue this oil painting journey?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Are you going to set it up in the garage or somewhere else?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
That's great. I need to figure out my physical thing. This year I really let the physical slide.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I don't know what my thing is. Maybe it is Walken.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Right. And even taking it out of LA, and I'm even thinking of it even growing up in St. Louis sort of, there's the person we're describing there. And then there's also like the person that was like using Tom's toothpaste before Tom's was like mainstreamed.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I've never really thought of that, though, the pressure part of it.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Well, I'm kind of excited. I guess this is the nice thing about the new year always is that you do get this reset, even if it is superficial. Let's hope it's not. You know what I mean? But you at least get this moment to take stock and be like, I am going to try again.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
There's so many people. That's what this day is all about.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
For as long as I can. For some of those resolutions, it's a few weeks. But you know what? For some of them, it might be the whole damn year, hopefully.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I mean, it is a classic resolution, but that's interesting that like you didn't think of other things too.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Yeah. Maybe that is like a generational thing too. Because when you think about us growing, it's always like the thing you aren't going to do anymore.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Yeah, and I'm very, very, very, very grateful.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Okay. On to 2025. 2025, let's go, everybody. Everybody, let's all go.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
But it was like, do you know what I mean? I don't know.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Yeah, but sometimes not as bougie, but sometimes bougie.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Anyways, I see these people, they're making a left-hand turn onto the road where I'm going. I yield for them. They come on the road and there's a woman on a bike. Great. And then there's a man on a bike and he's got like the big bike contraption, right?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
That has, have you seen the ones where it's like, I'm going to wheel three of my kids around where they have a huge thing in front or something or there's different types. This one was for one child, but it was in front of the bike and it was like,
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
the bike was sort of elongated and it had like a cover system but it was kind of like this was a big thing you know either i don't know if he bought it or he made it or whatnot and upon closer look There is a baby baby that is in a car seat in this thing.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
So it's rigged up for like a little baby in front.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
It makes me a little nervous. Sure. But more power to you if you're a bike person like you were saying.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Exactly. Now, the man is in front and the woman starts behind him in the bike lane. Are they together? They're definitely together. This is definitely some sort of unit.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Maybe a family. Okay. Then the woman comes to like flank them. So they're, but now they can't all be in the bike lane, which I'm like, this is not, don't do this. I'm already nervous with your huge bike contraption with an infant in a bicycle, right?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
And this isn't a quick bike that you can maneuver easily. This is like this behemoth thing. And now this woman's going into the car lane. So I'm nervous. And I'm just like, oh, these people. And I'm slightly annoyed. And I'm starting to judge them. And then I noticed something that I hadn't seen yet. No one's wearing helmets. And I'm like, you are the dumbest fucking people I've ever seen.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I was livid at the parents, I'm assuming, of this infant that are in this crazy contraption that are not biking safe, that aren't wearing helmets. Like if you're one of those people, you got to wear the helmet.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
No, this is, I agree with you, but this is a much bigger infraction to me.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
What's the mindset for these people without the helmets on their bike?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Shout out my brother. He's got quite a few pairs of those as well.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
That's a big part of skateboard culture still, right? That's a whole thing. But with bicycles, it does seem that that is not a thing anymore. And I would also say the type of person that has the crazy bike seat with the kid, I can remember one of them people on my block growing up They are the people when we were kids that actually had bike helmets when it wasn't cool to have a bike helmet.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Yeah, it might sound a little different. We got our portable rig, as they say.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Which makes me think like you're so, this is so dumb. You're going to, if you wreck now, like you're putting yourself in that much more jeopardy with your infant.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Yeah, because it's a moment that needs justice. I wasn't even able to give my opinion.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Anyone that's in any industry where they talk about rigs.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Yes. This comes from Lilusuma Sama on iTunes or Apple. Yep, I'm listening.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
But I was like playfully doing that. But I guess, but yeah.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Or voiceover, as we found out recently. We can't get into it that much because it's a fun project we're working on. But we had to do some, what do they call them in the biz? Punch-ins? No.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
And there were three of us doing them. Two of you were amazing. And me doing it was how painful. I mean, I can't. I remember also we were in a friend of yours, like a short film or something.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Like, just you're someone in the room at the party or something, and I can't do it.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Now, did I get the results I needed though? Sometimes you gotta be, everyone has a different technique.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Whoa. Okay. Well, I did say in that session, too, I'm open. Like, let me know at feedback coming back my way. Hopefully, you don't think, like, I damaged you, did I?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
Absolutely. Okay. Okay. One more thing before we get into the upcoming year. On that same trip, I did see a bumper sticker, which I was like, I've never ever seen a bumper sticker like this. And it said, someone I love has eczema.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
I think so. Yeah. I think some of the... Well... Right? And I know some other people that have eczema.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
But safe to say, we're very eczema-friendly people.
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
So I'm coming to this bumper sticker, eczema-friendly, but I'm thinking like... What happened in this person's universe that they then put the bumper sticker on their car?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
How did the person with eczema feel about it?
Nobody's Listening, Right?
149 - 2025 Let's Get Messy!
You think it's like removed from the immediate nuclear family?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Before we begin please be advised that this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence as presented during the trial. Please take care while listening. It's Tuesday morning, January 14th, 2025, day two of the trial. The morning unfolds just as it did yesterday. In fact, the daily structure is quickly settling into a predictable rhythm.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Four homicide detectives and crime scene investigators from the Chattanooga Police Department responded, along with officers from the Nolensville Police Department. Upon arrival, the first contact made was with Jason's parents. Investigator Crawford informed them of the search warrant and asked if Jason Chen was inside.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Jason's father called for him, and moments later, Jason appeared from a room on the second floor. Crawford testified that when Jason came to the door, his demeanor was defensive yet calm.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Crawford informed Jason that law enforcement had a search warrant for his parents' residence and that he would be detained at the Nolensville Police Department where a separate search warrant had been issued for his person, more specifically for his DNA. Upon hearing this, Jason's first response was to ask if they had spoken with his lawyer yet. Crawford told him no. He didn't argue or resist.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Instead, he complied with the officers, allowing them to escort him to the patrol car waiting outside. Next, District Attorney Cody Womp questioned Investigator Crawford about photographs of Jason Chen standing in his parents' doorway, drawing attention to a notable item on his head, a red and white trucker hat.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
The hat featured the phrase, anything goes, a detail investigators carefully documented as part of the case. During the search of Chen's parents' house, investigators made a curious discovery in the room where Jason Chen had been staying. His iPhone was found inside of a red jewelry box, which had been turned around and obscurely placed on the top shelf of a cabinet.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
His phone would become a goldmine of information for investigators. On the desk in this same room, Jason's wallet was located with his ID and credit cards inside. One of the cards would later be linked to receipts from Walgreens and Walmart, where Chen was seen on security footage just days before purchasing Band-Aids and cleaning supplies.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
A laptop and multiple handwritten notes were also located on the desk in this room. These notes provided an interesting read. One bright yellow post-it note said, Approach them. Another had the name Crawford written on it, with Investigator Crawford's cell phone number written next to it, some doodles, and then two other names, Brooke and Cheyenne. Who were these girls?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
As juror number one explains, once we're at the courthouse, we settle into our jury room where we spend time getting to know each other. Remember, we're not allowed to discuss the case until deliberations, which honestly is harder than it sounds. And with no cell phones or laptops to retreat into, we have nothing to do but talk.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Another fluorescent post-it note had two sets of 11-digit numbers written on it, There was also a white note card with a thin black border, listing finger sizes for rings and different handwriting. It wasn't brought up in trial testimony, so it may not be relevant to the case, but it still caught my attention. There's another dark purple post-it note that caught my eye.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
It's difficult to make out in the photos, but Investigator Crawford read it aloud, revealing what it had said.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Other yellow post-it notes read, Saturday, November 19th.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Then investigators found a notebook containing organized notes about Jasmine. Here's what the spiral notebook read.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
You can see all of these notes on our website, sequesteredpod.com. We have a lot of thoughts about them, especially since they weren't really brought up again in the trial. But I can see why the prosecution wanted them included in this testimony. Also, it seemed like with Chen writing down Investigator Crawford's number, he had clearly listened to his voicemail.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
And from the way the notes were worded, it felt like he was trying to get his story straight before calling Crawford back. In another room of the parents' house, investigators located Jason Chen's backpack. Among the items found inside, an eyeglasses case was collected. Inside of the case was Jasmine Pace's SIM card. This obviously raised some serious questions. Why did he have it?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Had he removed it to prevent tracking? Where was her cell phone? This discovery would become a critical piece of the investigation, suggesting a deliberate effort to conceal evidence. Finally, Investigator Crawford revealed that Jason's car was found parked inside of his parents' garage, while both of his parents' vehicles sat outside in the driveway.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
In photos shown during the trial, the two-car garage, each side with its own retracting door, appeared to serve as a storage space for the family. The side closest to the house was packed with items, leaving no clear pathway. On the other side, a gray Toyota Camry was wedged tightly among the stored items, as if space had been cleared just enough to fit the vehicle.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
So, what do a group of random strangers tasked with deciding a man's fate but unable to talk about it actually talk about? Well, we get to know each other the old-fashioned way. We share about our jobs, families, where we grew up, and swap favorite restaurant names.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
The placement of Chen's car, tucked away while the family's vehicles remained outside, raised an unsettling question. Had he been deliberately hiding his car from view? Jason was placed under an investigative hold at Nolensville PD while investigators searched his parents' home.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Once the search had concluded, he was formally arrested for criminal homicide and transported back to Chattanooga, where he was booked and fingerprinted. His Toyota Camry was transported shortly behind. The very next day, on December 1st, 2022, investigators made a grim discovery. A suitcase wedged into the brush off of Suck Creek Road. Inside, the body of Jasmine Pace.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
DA Womp turned to Investigator Crawford, asking him to connect the dots between Chen's arrest and the chilling discovery that followed just 24 hours later.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Next, DA Womp focused on Chen's phone records, revealing call logs between Jasmine Pace and Jason Chen, along with text messages Chen sent to her phone after she was last seen. Investigators forensically accessed his phone data, uncovering multiple deleted text messages to Jasmine and a 71-minute phone call that took place at 11.56 a.m. on November 22nd.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Crawford explained to the jury the key difference between data extracted from a physical phone versus call records from cell phone service providers. Data extracted from a phone will reveal deleted text, photos, app data, and metadata, which can expose altered timestamps or hidden messages.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Among us were people with professions like doctor and social worker, clinician and accountant, engineer and architect, homemaker and tour manager. We all came from different backgrounds, worlds that probably would never intersect in our daily lives. I've said this before, but it felt like an unexpected social experiment.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
In contrast, cell service records log calls, texts, and tower pings, but it doesn't store message content, making them a permanent, unchangeable record that a user cannot delete or manipulate. DA Womp then shows screenshots of text messages on Chen's phone that didn't appear in his text records, suggesting that they had been deleted.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Among them was a message sent from Jason's phone to Jasmine's phone at 7.53 p.m. on November 28th. It read, Good morning.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Attached to the text was a photo of Jason holding a Starbucks matcha drink, but the metadata had revealed that this photo was actually taken on July 23rd of 2021, and it had been altered on November 23rd of 2022 before it was sent to Jasmine's phone, hours after Jasmine was last seen.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
CPD investigators determined that Chen manipulated the timestamp, making it appear as though Jasmine was alive and responding after her disappearance. Later that day, he reinforced this illusion by sending another text to her phone, attempting to create a false trail.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Next, the prosecution introduced a critical update from Jason Chen's former apartment complex. During renovations of Chen's apartment, the complex manager contacted Chattanooga PD, reporting the possible discovery of new evidence.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Investigator Crawford and crime scene investigators returned to Chen's former apartment, where ongoing renovations revealed new evidence that had previously gone unnoticed. With the bed and furniture now removed, a dark discoloration in the carpet became visible in the exact spot where Chen's bed had been during their initial search, suggesting a stain that had seeped deep into the flooring.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Additionally, Crawford observed an oil stain on the wall, positioned at a height consistent with where someone might have sat up in bed and rested their head, further confirming the original placement of the bed in his room and thus reinforcing the significance of this newly uncovered evidence.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Once the carpet was pulled back, a large dark stain was revealed, seeping through to the carpet insulation and onto the floorboard. With his experience in homicide cases, Investigator Crawford stated that it unmistakably looked like blood. The entire section of blood-soaked carpet, along with the insulation beneath it, was collected as evidence.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
On day three of the trial, this very piece, the stained carpet, the blue insulation, and the unmistakable presence of Jasmine's dried blood would be laid out on a tarp in front of the jury box, remaining there for the entire day. It was an inescapable, haunting reminder of the crime we were there to judge.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
The bailiff and officers joked with us back in Nashville, saying that we'd be bonded by the end of this. And they weren't wrong. What the 16 of us experienced over these 10 days created a connection that will stay with us forever. It's not unlike how investigators had to piece together all the fragments of evidence, each piece seemingly unrelated at first, but forming a complete picture over time.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
DA Cody Womp asked Investigator Crawford to explain the Arctic Camera System. RTIC, or Real-Time Intelligence Center, monitors over 3,000 surveillance cameras across Chattanooga. We've all seen them. They're those cameras on telephone poles at major intersections. You know, with the flashing blue lights.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
One of these cameras, positioned at the corner of Tremont and Fraser, captured many key moments in the investigation. Arctic footage confirmed Jasmine Pace's arrival at Jason Chen's apartment at 11.42 p.m. on November 22, 2022, matching data from her MyChevy app.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Additional surveillance showed Chen inside a Walmart on November 23rd, purchasing washcloths and cleaning supplies, which investigators later found inside of his apartment. After checkout at Walmart, he remained in the parking lot for 30 minutes, raising questions about his behavior. Later that day, Chen was seen at Walgreens at 1.39 p.m.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
and again at 7.03 p.m., with a five-and-a-half-hour gap between visits. At 8.30 p.m., Jasmine's vehicle was seen exiting the lofts at Tremont, driven by Chen, who was wearing a gray hoodie and the red and white Anything Goes trucker hat. The vehicle is shown again at 8.41 p.m. arriving at the Signal View condos, the location where her family later found it.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Twelve minutes later, Arctic footage shows a dark-colored Toyota Prius dropping off a person wearing a red and white hat and a gray hoodie at 110 Tremont Street, which Crawford believes was a Lyft ride, further piecing together Chen's movements that night. In the courtroom, D.A. Womp cues the Arctic cams up to the evening of November 23rd.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
At 5.58 p.m., Jason Chen exits the front entrance of his apartment building, pulling a large suitcase down the sidewalk. He appears to struggle, lifting it up the stairs. Then his right arm drops as the weight of the suitcase settles back on its wheels. He then turns left and rolls the suitcase out of frame and into the parking lot.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Moments later, his gray Toyota Camry is seen leaving the parking lot and turning west onto Frazier Avenue.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Surveillance evidence continued to tighten the prosecution's case. Arctic footage had already shown Jason Chen leaving his apartment with a suitcase on November 23rd, the same day he purchased cleaning supplies at Walmart and Walgreens. Now, additional ring camera footage from his downstairs neighbor, Doug Lynch, captured Chen entering and exiting the apartment building multiple times.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
This footage, combined with the timeline of his movements, was painting a clearer picture of what happened in the hours after Jasmine disappeared. But the most critical piece of evidence was still to come. At 4.42 p.m., Detective Stephen Bulkley took the stand. A key investigator in the case, Bulkley described the search for Jasmine Pace as an all-hands-on-deck investigation.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
His testimony focused on the phone records that ultimately led to the discovery of her body. On November 28, 2022, Bulkley wrote search warrants for Jason's T-Mobile records. On December 1, 2022, those records put Jason Chin on Suck Creek Road.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Just as we were strangers brought together by circumstance, so were the detectives, attorneys, and even Jasmine's family, all linked by the pursuit of justice. Unlike us, though, they didn't have the option to walk away when the trial was over. Their bond, forged through grief and relentless determination, will last far beyond the verdict and sentencing.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Using the location data from Chin's phone, detectives zeroed in on Suck Creek Road, starting their search at the very first vehicle pull-off, a small gravel turnout near the steep embankment. In under a minute, Bulkley's eyes locked onto something partially hidden in the brush, a suitcase wedged in a swath of kudzu, sitting just 10 to 15 feet above the river level.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
The placement suggested it had been deliberately discarded, but not well enough to be swept away by the river's current. Everything about the scene felt off. What happened next was chilling. The courtroom watched as footage taken from another investigator's phone plays on the screen.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Bulkley slipped on blue medical gloves and with careful hands unzipped the suitcase, revealing a black trash bag tightly packed inside. The way it was arranged sent a chill through him. This wasn't random. He reached down with his right hand and pressed gently against the surface of the bag. Beneath the plastic, he could feel the unmistakable contours of a human form. A head, shoulders, and torso.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
There was no doubt. He knew they had found Jasmine Pace. Bulkley would notify Investigator Crawford and call the Medical Examiner and Crime Scene Unit to collect the suitcase and document the scene.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
After my sequestration, my producer and I traveled back to Chattanooga to see firsthand the places we had heard about during the trial. To say that this was a heavy, sad experience would be an understatement. Standing in these locations, where key moments in the case unfolded, made everything feel even more real. The weight of it all was undeniable.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
We both fell silent as we stepped out of the car onto the gravel crescent-shaped turnout off Suck Creek Road. The turnout itself is small, stretching no more than 30 yards, with the riverbank just steps from the road's edge. I noticed scattered trash in the area, a reminder of how time had passed.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
It had been over two years, and though I was visiting in January of 2025, I imagine the scene didn't look much different in November of 2022. A few bare tulip poplars and a swath of dried kudzu plants line the banks. Their tangled remains barely concealing the Tennessee River rushing just 15 feet below. It wasn't until writing for this podcast that I truly understood what kudzu is.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Sequestration wasn't just about being physically removed from the outside world. It carried an emotional and mental weight that we all had to process in our own way. Juror number five kept a journal throughout the trial, documenting her thoughts and experiences in real time. Here's a passage she wrote about the weight of sequestration.
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Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
I'd seen it before, tangled across trees and swallowing entire landscapes. But I never knew just how relentless it was. It's an unstoppable creeping vine that grows up to a foot a day. But here, in the dead of winter, the kudzu is brittle and lifeless. its once dense greenery reduced to a skeletal tangle of vines. Any illusion of cover was gone. The suitcase had never been well hidden.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
And standing there that day, it was clear this wasn't a carefully concealed disposal. Jasmine had been found. Next week on Sequestered.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
CSI uncovers trash bags, shackles, and a chilling truth. Stay with us. Episode 4 dives into the case's most damning details. Thank you for listening to sequestered a jurors perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine pace. Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved and the weight of seeking justice.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us. Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde. News clips featured in this episode were sourced from WTVC News Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga, and the Law and Crime Network.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death. For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Early mornings, strict schedules, and constant supervision. For all of us, the predictability of the process was both grounding and, at times, a little suffocating. I had a chance to catch up with a couple of the jurors after the trial, and I'm eager to share some of their thoughts with you throughout the podcast. Here's juror number one sharing his breakdown of our morning routine.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
This is Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11. Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is episode three, Connecting the Dots. Okay, here's what we know so far.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Jasmine Pace was last seen alive on November 22, 2022, when she arrived at Jason Chen's apartment at 110 Tremont Street in Chattanooga. At 2.18 a.m. on November 23, Jasmine sent her mother Katrina Bean a location pin for the same address, a message that would go unseen for three days. By November 26, after days of silence, Katrina took action.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
At a Verizon store, she accessed Jasmine's MyChevy app, tracking her car to 900 Mountain Creek Road. Jasmine's father and sister met her there, but Jasmine was nowhere to be found. The family knocked on doors, questioned residents, and called the police. With an officer present, Katrina dialed one of the last numbers on Jasmine's call log, Jason Chen.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Jason claimed he hadn't seen Jasmine in a while and gave Katrina a fake address, 500 Tremont Street, an abandoned house. Suspicious, the family followed Jasmine's location pin to 110 Tremont Street, her last known location. A neighbor confirmed hearing a woman scream from apartment 210 on November 22nd.
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Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Breaking into the unit, the family found Jasmine's driver's license, credit cards, and travel bag, and immediately called 911. Police arrived, briefly looked around, and left, finding nothing suspicious. But Katrina wasn't done. She returned to apartment 210, collecting Jasmine's belongings and a box of items she believed could be crucial.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
The next day, on November 27th, investigator Zach Crawford took over the case. His work would soon connect the evidence that led to Jason Chen's arrest. Fast forward to January 14th, 2025. Day two of the trial, a day that reveals the full story of Jasmine Pace's murder and the prosecution's case against Jason Chen.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Soon, every piece of evidence, every testimony, and every detail will come together, exposing the truth in a way that can no longer be ignored. Get ready. This was a long day for all trial goers. The 16 of us file into the courtroom just as we did the day before. The routine was already settling in.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
The knock at the door, line up, be counted, walk across the hall, enter the courtroom, and silently file into the jury box. I adjusted my squeaky blue chair and flipped my notebook to a fresh page, then glanced toward the bench where Judge Patterson remained standing. He invited the room to be seated.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
With everyone in place, he adjusted his glasses, looked toward the attorneys, and signaled for General Womp to take the floor. Lead investigator Zach Crawford is already sitting in the witness stand. Crawford carried a composed and methodical presence in the courtroom. His dark, short hair was neatly styled, and a mustache and beard framed his face, adding to his serious, no-nonsense demeanor.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Deep lines etched across his forehead hinted at the weight of his profession. Years spent analyzing crime scenes, piecing together the truth and delivering facts with precision. When responding to questions, he spoke with measured confidence, his steady voice reinforcing the gravity of the evidence he had meticulously gathered.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
His sharp eyes rarely stray, as if he is mentally retracing every step of the investigation in real time. He answered with deliberate precision, never rushing, ensuring the jury grasped the significance of each detail.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
You might recall we ended day one of the trial with the search of Jason Chen's apartment at 110 Tremont Street. The search warrant was granted for apartment 210 at 1145 p.m. on November 28th. Jason Chen was not home when officers arrived. Upon entry, officers cleared and secured the apartment before the crime scene unit began processing and documenting the scene.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Investigators conducted a walkthrough, searching for evidence and any clues about what had transpired. Investigator Crawford told the jury that the search began with gloves and a flashlight. Then, what started as a routine search quickly escalated into a homicide investigation with the first spray of Bluestar, a forensic agent.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Crawford, who had already noticed the stains during his initial walkthrough, watched as Bluestar illuminated a disturbingly large area in the living room. As the crime scene unit moved through the apartment, more evidence surfaced. Blue Star revealed blood smeared in the living room, splattered and pooled in the bathroom, and soaked deep into the bedroom carpet.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
There was, as DA Cody Womp had stated in her opening argument, blood all over the apartment. What had first appeared to be a clean apartment was now telling a much darker story. crime scene investigators photographed every stain, swabbed surfaces, and meticulously collected evidence, each piece bringing them closer to uncovering what had truly happened inside Apartment 210.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
With suspicions mounting, investigators expand their search beyond Apartment 210, canvassing neighbors and scouring the area for overlooked evidence. One conversation led Investigator Crawford to a manhole cover in the back parking lot. Determined to leave no stone unturned, he crawled 70 feet underground in search of clues.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Nothing was discovered, but the manhole cover sat near a dumpster outside of Jason Chen's apartment, where a crucial discovery did await.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Inside the wooden fencing and on the ground just in front of two blue dumpsters, investigators find a pair of blue jeans with discoloration resembling blood, a pair of white low-top Vans shoes, size 11, and a blood-soaked sanitary pad lying next to a pair of women's underwear. These items were photographed and collected for evidence. DA Cody Womp then highlighted a significant detail.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Jasmine Pace was on her menstrual cycle at the time of her disappearance, and the pad found near the dumpster matched the one she was wearing when her body was recovered. The photos of these items in front of the dumpster are available to view on our website. Adding to the complexity of the case, Investigator Crawford highlighted a key forensic limitation.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
In major criminal investigations, law enforcement can submit only 10 pieces of evidence at a time for forensic testing. Compounding the challenge, most forensic labs face month-long backlogs. In this case, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, or TBI, conducted forensic analysis through its crime lab, performing DNA testing, toxicology, and fingerprint analysis to support law enforcement.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
Given the urgency, Crawford prioritized the most critical evidence, items most likely to connect Jason Chen to the crime. Although investigators collected the items from the dumpster, they were not included in the 10 items submitted to TBI for testing. District Attorney Cody Wamp presented these details strategically, anticipating the defense's argument.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
If the dumpster evidence wasn't tested, they could claim it couldn't be definitively linked to the murder. Despite this, forensic testing yielded a critical breakthrough. The blood found inside Jason Chen's apartment was a DNA match to Jasmine Pace. What began as a missing person case had now shifted dramatically, and Jason Chen was the main suspect.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you. Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, sequesteredpod.com. We've added exclusive blogs for every episode, packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights, and key moments from the trial. Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way. At this point in the case, Jason Chen is officially identified as a suspect. Despite multiple attempts to contact him, Jason remains elusive. Investigators gather information about his family, personal life and his movements.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
They confirmed Chen's identity not only from his residence at 110 Tremont Street, but also by his cell phone number, his enrollment at University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, and finally, by learning that he drove a 2018 gray Toyota Camry. Next, Crawford would obtain a search warrant for Chen's cell phone data, revealing ping locations with coordinates that led to Nolensville, Tennessee.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 03: Connecting the Dots
I need to pause here because, hold on... Did they just say Nolensville? I live about four miles from Nolensville, Tennessee. This case just got a whole lot closer to home. In the early hours of November 29th at 2 a.m., a search warrant was executed at Chen's parents' house in Nolensville, Tennessee.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Before we begin please be advised that this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence as presented during the trial. Please take care while listening. It's still Monday, January 20th, 2025, day eight of the trial. But now things feel different. The alternate jurors had already been selected and asked to leave the courtroom. Exiled to their own alternate jury room until further notice.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Judge Patterson announced to the courtroom that sentencing would take place the following day at 10 a.m., and court was dismissed for the evening. We walked out of that courthouse carrying the weight of what we had just done. It was quiet between us. No one said much. We still weren't really allowed to say much. But we knew we'd be back in less than 24 hours. The judge had made that much clear.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
After such a heavy day, we made the much less weighty decision of opting to eat dinner at the hotel's restaurant rather than going out. None of us had the energy to be anywhere but close to our rooms. But when our van pulled into the hotel parking lot, we were stalled by the sight of our four alternates.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
They were packing their luggage and climbing into the other van and heading home to their families, their own beds, their normal lives. We would have just one more night in our hotel rooms because our role carried just one more responsibility to decide if Jason Chen would ever be eligible for parole. Now it's Tuesday, January 21st, 2025, day eight of the trial.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
We returned to the courtroom one last time, our suitcases already packed and ready for departure. But before we could head home, we had just one more heavy decision to make. It was a strange, almost cruel juxtaposition, to be preparing to go home, thinking of familiar comforts, our own beds, our families, only after deciding how long Jason Chen would spend in his new home.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
For us, the end was in sight, but for him, today was the day he would learn his own fate. There was something chilling about the finality of it all. Knowing that the same doors we would walk through to reclaim our freedom would close behind him, sealing him away from everything he once knew. This wasn't just the final day of his trial. It was the day his future would be decided.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And for the first time since this trial began, we were going to be allowed to speak freely. We were allowed to form opinions out loud, allowed to share our thoughts, our doubts, and our convictions. It was a big moment, and I kept thinking about Jasmine. Her texts, her voice, her fear. And I wondered if the rest of the jurors were thinking about her too.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Today was sentencing day. At 10 a.m., Judge Patterson began with a video connection to a translator, making sure everything was in place before we began. By 1026, we learned that Jason Chen had chosen not to testify before his sentencing. We weren't in the courtroom during this exchange, but it felt significant. Up until that moment, Jason Chen had remained completely silent.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
In fact, the only two words the jury ever heard him say were not guilty, twice. Two words spoken on the very first day of his trial, and then nothing. We were now eight days into this trial, and this was his moment, his final chance to speak on his own behalf, to offer explanations, apologies, justifications, anything. And he chose silence. Here's the moment he was posed with his choice.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Before Jason Chen's decision was finalized, there was an important legal step that had to happen in front of the judge. Defense attorney Joshua Weiss stood beside Jason and walked him through a formal confirmation process. I've learned that this is standard in criminal trials.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Before a defendant waives their right to testify, the court needs to be absolutely certain that the decision is being made knowingly, voluntarily, and without pressure from anyone else. Weiss asked Jason a series of direct questions. Had he discussed this decision thoroughly? Did he understand the consequences? Was this entirely his choice?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Only after Jason clearly stated that he was making this choice of his own volition did the court move forward. Mr. Weiss confirmed Jason's decision not to testify.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
That exchange might have sounded routine, but in reality, it carried tremendous weight. With each yes, Jason Chen was sealing his fate, choosing silence over explanation, and placing his future entirely in the hands of his attorneys and the evidence already presented. From that moment forward, the jury would never hear from him directly.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
No justifications, no explanations, only the defense that had been built on his behalf. Another thing I found interesting, something I learned after the fact, was that technically, Jason Chen should have been seated in court that morning wearing his prison-issued attire. He was, after all, a guilty man now. The jury was out of the courtroom during this exchange.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
But DA Womp made a point of bringing it up to the judge that morning. I hadn't considered it at the time, especially since we weren't even supposed to know he was in custody during the trial. That's why he wore professional attire throughout the trial, though. To present the appearance of a free, innocent man. It was all about perception.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Then the courtroom stood, and one by one, each of us walked across the hall into the jury room. It was time to deliberate on a verdict. But it felt like so much more than that now. It felt like stepping into a place where all the noise and chaos of the trial faded away.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
The suits, the neatly combed hair, the calm, calculated demeanor. Of course, innocent until proven guilty, right? But looking back, I can see why DA Womp would have brought it up. He wasn't the same man standing trial for innocence or guilt anymore. That decision had already been made. He was now a convicted murderer.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And somehow, letting him maintain that polished, composed appearance felt like one last manipulation. All right, now back to our seats in the jury box and back to the gravity of what we were being asked to do. Only this time, we weren't deciding whether Jason was guilty. We had already done that. Now we are being asked to decide how long he should stay behind bars.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
The state was asking for the harshest sentence allowed under Tennessee law, life in prison without the possibility of parole. If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you. Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, sequesteredpod.com.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
We've added exclusive blogs for every episode packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights and key moments from the trial. Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial. so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And then, the room shifted again as Jason Chen's mother, Shu Fang Chen, was called to the stand. She spoke through a translator, painting a picture of her son as a good, quiet child, a student, a boy who waited late at night for his parents to return from their restaurant business. She talked about how hard he worked in school and how he knew right from wrong. And then she broke down.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
She began to sob. Her voice cracked. She looked each of us in the eyes and begged for the jury to give her son a chance to do what's right. To come home. To start over. And in that moment, for the first time during the entire trial, we saw Jason Chen cry. His own mother's pain finally moved something in him.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Where everything came down to 12 people, sitting around a table, confronting the truth, and trying to decide whether justice could be found in the wreckage of something so profoundly wrong. We were about to find out if any of us were truly ready for what came next. This is Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Over and over again, she pleaded for mercy, asking for parole, asking for a future. She even asked Jasmine's family to somehow allow for that future. But the weight of what had happened couldn't be softened with apologies. It was hard to digest. You really have to turn your emotions off and just allow for input. Here's a clip of Latricia Thomas from News Channel 9.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
If I'm honest, this was one of the most difficult moments of the trial. Watching Jason's mom beg for her son's life. There was something so raw about it, so human. And there was this added layer of complexity that made it feel even heavier. Jason's parents are both Chinese immigrants and don't speak English.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
This was the first time a translator had been provided for them, the first moment Xu Feng Chen could fully communicate her pain and desperation. I'd seen her throughout the trial, sitting faithfully in the second row behind her son. I even remember seeing her on the first day of jury selection, sitting in the back row just behind me.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
I've seen her lovely and devastated face for weeks now, and I often wondered what this whole ordeal must have been like for her. To sit through an entire trial, spoken in a language she didn't understand, watching as the evidence against her son was projected onto screens and laid out on the courtroom floor, evidence she couldn't fully grasp, though I'm sure she figured out what it was.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
I wondered how much of the awful details she learned only after sitting through it all, and now looking into the faces of the strangers who deliberated on the fate of her son, without ever truly knowing what was being said. I couldn't help but feel sad for her, for the way she must have felt so isolated.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
But no matter how much I wanted to make room for her pain, it couldn't change what had been done to Jasmine. And that conflict was hard to reconcile. Then it was Jasmine's family's turn to speak. After the deeply emotional, translated statements from Jason's mother came the victim impact statements. Jasmine's older sister, Gabrielle, took the stand first. Everyone calls her Gabby.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is Episode 9, The Verdict and Sentencing. It was 4.12 p.m. when the jury room door closed behind us.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
and she carried the voice of someone who knew Jasmine inside and out, not just as a sister, but as someone who had survived unimaginable loss right alongside of her. Gabby reminded us that Jasmine had endured more heartache in her short life than most people do in a lifetime. She spoke of loss after loss, grief that had stacked upon itself like weights Jasmine was somehow forced to carry.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
their brother lost in a tragic ATV accident, a cousin taken by COVID, their other cousin claimed by another accident, and just hours before her own murder, her beloved grandmother, a woman who had helped raise her, her best friend, her safe place, passed away suddenly after a long battle with cancer. The grief was relentless, and yet Jasmine somehow kept going.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Still, through all of it, Jasmine remained full of life. Not only that, she remained full of love, Gabby said.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Jasmine loved hard. She dreamed of being a mom one day. It was one of her deepest desires. And in the meantime, she was already a proud and devoted mom to her four cats. Gabby said they were her world, and she doted on them like children, spoiling them with affection, treats, and attention. But Jasmine's love extended far beyond her pets.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Gabby painted a vivid picture of who her sister truly was, someone with a joyful, mischievous spirit and an unbreakable bond with her family. She was a jokester, a best friend, the one who could make you laugh until your sides hurt.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
She was the kind of person who got a panda tattoo just because it made her smile, not because it was trendy or meaningful in some profound way, but simply because it brought her joy. Jasmine kept two entire dresser drawers filled with candy, not just because she loved sweets, though she definitely did, but because she loved to spoil her nieces and nephews.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
It was her way of bringing them happiness, of showing her love. And then, Gabby brought us to the casket, to the moment she had to say goodbye to her sister in a way no one should ever have to. Her voice cracked as she described it, the anguish of looking down at Jasmine, knowing she'll never hear her laugh again, never see her smile again. And all I could think was how wrong it all felt.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
How all of that love Jasmine had for her family, for her pets, for her life... had all been snatched away in the most brutal and senseless way.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Gabby said their family has relived those final moments of Jasmine's life for two years, over and over, the horror replaying like a broken record in their minds. Every time, they picture her terrified, alone. They imagine her fighting for her life, struggling against the unthinkable. They imagine her calling out for help that would never come. And the worst part?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
These moments aren't just memories. They're nightmares her family wakes up to every single day. The unanswered questions. The haunting images that refuse to fade. For them, Jasmine's death isn't just a tragedy. It's a wound that keeps reopening. A wound that may never fully heal.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
She gripped it tightly, as if the weight of what it symbolized was almost too much to bear. Jacqueline set the clear vase on the corner of the witness stand, closest to the jury box, and pulled out a bag of blue and clear glass stones. One at a time, she began dropping a glass stone into the vase until the bag was emptied. When she spoke, her voice was steady but strained.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Just before the bailiff shut it, we were instructed not to begin our discussions until all 12 members were seated and present. Once we were together, we were to select a foreperson and begin our deliberations.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Each stone, she explained, represented a single stab wound, 60 wounds. The jar wasn't just a prop, it was a testament, a visual representation of brutality. It forced us to confront the reality of what had been done to Jasmine, not just through words or photographs, but through something tangible, something heavy, something real.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
As Jacqueline spoke, the stones inside the jar shifted with the slightest movement. The soft, unsettling sound of them bumping against each other in the glass jar seemed to echo through the silence in the room. It was impossible to look away, impossible to forget.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Jacqueline's voice didn't waver. She looked at each of us in the eye and asked us to remember the autopsy photos. But more than that, she asked us to go beyond the sterile, clinical images we'd been shown. She wanted us to imagine something more personal, something more painful. She asked us to replace Jasmine's face with someone we loved, a daughter, a sister, a best friend.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
then to picture them enduring the same violence and the same terror that Jasmine did. To imagine the agony of losing them in such a brutal and senseless way. Because only then, she said, could we begin to grasp the scope of their loss. But Jacqueline didn't stop there. She didn't just tell us about Jasmine's death. She wanted us to understand Jasmine's life.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Upon arriving at a unanimous decision, each juror would sign the official verdict statement, and the foreperson was instructed to flip on a light switch on the wall, which would illuminate a light in the hallway, alerting the bailiff that the jury had reached their verdict. Court was adjourned while the jury was out.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
who she was, what she loved, the kindness she poured into the people around her. She described Jasmine as a warm, generous soul, a girl who hugged with intention, not because it was polite, but because she meant it, because connection mattered to her. She was playful and kind and The kind of person who tattooed a sleepy panda on her wrist, as Gabby said, quote, simply because it made her smile.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Because she found joy in the little things. She was thoughtful, too. The type of person who would go out of her way to bring happiness to someone she cared about. Jacqueline told us about a Starbucks cup that Jasmine ordered for her online as soon as it was mentioned in a conversation. A simple, thoughtful gift. The kind of gesture that seemed small, but spoke volumes about Jasmine's heart.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
That Starbucks cup? It arrived the same day they were saying goodbye to their grandmother at the hospital. As Jacqueline shared that detail, her voice cracked. It was another piece of Jasmine's kindness, delivered far too late. A reminder of how much had been lost.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Jacqueline described that day at the hospital, their last day with Jasmine's beloved Granny, how Jasmine, even in her own grief, was still caring for others, still making sure everyone else was okay. She was the kind of person who, even on one of the hardest days of her life, was still trying to keep family traditions alive, still thinking of Thanksgiving, still planning, still hoping.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Everyone shuffled out for the evening, I would imagine, likely anticipating the long haul. Inside the jury room, we were truly on our own for the first time. The room felt emptier than before. With four fewer people to fill the space, it was startling how much of a difference that made. Without them, the room seemed bigger, quieter,
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Even as her heart was breaking, she was reaching out, offering comfort when she was the one who probably needed it the most. But then came the silence, the unanswered texts, The calls that went straight to voicemail. And then she spoke of an hour and 12 minutes where no one knows what Jason Chen was doing. That space, an agonizing gap in time, has haunted Jacqueline ever since.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
The questions echo in her mind. What was happening to Jasmine during those 72 minutes? What thoughts went through her head? Was she afraid? Was she fighting? Was she already gone? It's that silence, that horrible, unrelenting silence that keeps Jacqueline awake at night. Because unanswered questions don't just fade away. They grow louder. They fester.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And in that courtroom, as Jacqueline described those missing minutes, you could feel her desperation, her need for answers. Answers that would never come back.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And still, somehow, Jacqueline found empathy for Chen's mother. She said she prays for her, acknowledged that his actions didn't just destroy Jasmine's family, they destroyed his own. Jacqueline looked around at her family and said she hardly recognizes them. Grief has changed their DNA. It's woven itself into every future holiday, celebration, and milestone.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
They've been given a life sentence, she said, and Jason Chen should have the same.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Next, in a moment that brought the courtroom to complete stillness, Jacqueline read from Jasmine's journal. She read Jasmine's words to her stepfather, her grief over the loss of her brother Austin. And then, an entry she wrote to her grandmother, the one who was battling cancer. The words were raw, personal. Finally, Jasmine's father, Travis Pace, stepped forward.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
He spoke of her childhood milestones, her gift for language, and her dreams of attending business school in Chicago. But his voice broke when he mentioned something all of the family members had shared. Jasmine losing her 14-year-old brother when she was just 16. A tragic ATV accident that shattered their world. Here's what Travis shared.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
We shuffled around like strangers waiting for a bus, each of us taking turns using the restroom, which, oddly, was the only truly private space any of us had the entire week. A chance to relieve ourselves, yes, but it was also a chance to turn off the noise and take a few honest breaths, if only for a couple of minutes.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Then, Travis Pace spoke about the impact of Jasmine's murder, how it rippled far beyond a single generation. He described a wound that stretched across their entire family. One that would scar not only those who knew Jasmine, but those who would only ever hear stories of her. The loss was permanent, and the damage was generational.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
The courtroom went quiet as we took a short recess. When the jury returned, Jason Chen's father, Min Yong Chen, spoke briefly. His words were quieter, simpler. Through a translator, he spoke to the Pace family. We understand your hurt, and we are so sorry for your loss.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
It was a gesture of remorse, and I understood why the defense made the call to do so, but it felt small against the weight of everything that had been said. Judge Patterson then gave us our new jury instructions for sentencing. The lawyers approached the bench, and General Cody Womps stepped to the podium for the last time.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Before she began, Judge Patterson provided two final pieces of information for the sentencing phase. The first, Jason Chen is a U.S. citizen. And the second, he has no significant criminal history. I'm going to play this next clip in its entirety so you can experience it like we did in the courtroom that morning.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
I lingered a bit longer than necessary this time, my hands pressed against the countertop, breathing slow, trying to quiet my nerves. The restroom break stretched on, eight, maybe ten minutes. Meanwhile, the four empty alternate chairs were rolled away from the large conference table and into the hallway, as if we needed more room to breathe.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Four people who had been part of our group. People we had eaten with, shared rides with, walked the depths of the earth with. People who had laughed with us, sighed with us, and silently held the weight of this case with us for eight days. Suddenly, they were gone, dismissed, and it all happened so fast. The rest of us, those whose numbers weren't called, just sat there, watching them leave.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Thank you. District Attorney Cody Womp reminded us of something chilling. Jasmine never got out of the suitcase until she was in a coffin. What Jason did, she said, wasn't just murder. It was heinous, atrocious, and cruel. The defense, meanwhile, has asked for mercy. They painted a picture of Jason as an old man, 73 years old, harmless, regretful, deserving of redemption.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
There are two versions of Jason Chen here, two competing realities, and we were left to decide which one would shape his future.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
When we were all finally seated, there was a heaviness to it. The first thing we had to do was choose a foreperson, someone to speak on behalf of the group when the verdict was ready. It quickly came down to me and one other juror. We both hesitated, dancing around the weight of the responsibility.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
With that, court was recessed once again for deliberations. But first, we ventured out as a group for lunch one final time. We enjoyed the walk, the warmth of the sun on our faces, and the moment of normalcy after days of heaviness. We'd been to this place before, earlier in the week. Anchors on Broad Street. They already had our tables reserved for us.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Everyone ordered and shared one last meal together. It was simple. Sweet. A small gesture of closure for a group of strangers brought together by tragedy. Jurors, deputies, a brief, fragile community bound by something none of us would ever forget. With full bellies and a final task at hand, we made our way back to the courthouse, back into the jury room for one last deliberation.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
We took our customary bathroom break, and once everyone was seated, the foreman put it to a vote. Just like the day before, a couple of jurors hesitated on the charge of life without the possibility of parole. And just like the day before, I couldn't confidently raise my hand. Not yet. I needed to be sure. I needed to speak. To discuss. To make sense of the weight of what we were about to decide.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
No one wanted to be the voice that would echo into the courtroom, delivering words that would shatter lives. Eventually, juror number 15 conceded. and the printed copy of the official charges that Judge Patterson had read from was slid across the table to him. I was okay with this move, relieved, honestly.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
The air in the room felt different this time. Heavier, oddly. As if we all understood that this was the true end. that what we decided in these moments would reverberate for decades. If Jason were given life with the possibility of parole, he would be 73 years old when his first opportunity for release would come. That would be 51 years from now.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
The idea of it stuck in my mind, circling over and over. I remember speaking out loud as much to the others as to myself. 51 years. That's more than an entire lifetime for Jasmine. It's more than twice as long as she ever had on this earth. The room was quiet, listening, weighing, processing. If we decide on parole, then 51 years from now, Jason Chen could walk free.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
He could breathe fresh air, rebuild his life, and make new memories forever. But Jasmine will still be gone 51 years from now. Her family will still be grieving her loss decades later. They don't get a second chance. I could feel the weight of those words settling over the room. And in that moment, something clicked for me. This wasn't about revenge. It was about justice.
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Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
A justice that matched the gravity of what had been taken away. And with that clarity, I felt that I could confidently raise my hand when it came time to vote again. It didn't take long, and the decision was made. We spent a few more minutes in silence, letting it settle. Making sure we were sure. It wasn't rushed. It wasn't hasty. But it was unanimous.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
At 2.29 p.m., Jason Chen was brought back into the courtroom. And three minutes later, our verdict was read.
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Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
It meant I didn't have to risk fumbling such weighty and important words in front of the court and the two families who were anxiously awaiting very different results. But it didn't take away from the weight I felt sitting at that table.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
There you have it. Jason Chen would spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole. It didn't feel victorious. It didn't feel like a win. But it felt necessary. We had done our part. We listened. We questioned. We deliberated. And now we had delivered our verdicts. It felt like the right decision, but it didn't feel like relief. Not really.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
As I walked out of the courthouse for the final time, the sun was still shining. People were still walking their dogs, grabbing coffee, and going about their lives. But for Jasmine's family, for all of us who sat through those nine days, life was not returning to normal.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Justice had been served in the eyes of the law, but the story and the pain that the Pace and Bean families went through wasn't over. Next time on Sequestered, we'll look at what happened after the verdict. I was interviewed by Latricia Thomas of News Channel 9 about the deliberations.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And we catch up with General Cody Womp and General Paul Moyle, now two months after the trial. Stick with us. I've got a lot more to share on this. Thank you for listening to Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved and the weight of seeking justice.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us. Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde. News clips featured in this episode were sourced from WTVC News Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga, and the Law and Crime Network.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
All of these details, all of the evidence, all of the testimony, every tax dollar spent bringing a sequestered jury to Chattanooga, the local expenses, the entire effort, it all came down to one question. Not if Jason Chen killed Jasmine Pace. We already knew he did. His own attorney admitted to that on day one of the trial. We didn't even have to deliberate on whether he abused a corpse.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death. For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
That was also admitted to. So, this whole thing practically came down to one word, premeditation. Remember, there were six possible verdicts related to Jasmine's death, ranging from first-degree premeditated murder to criminally negligent homicide. And there was a second separate charge of abuse of a corpse,
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
For each charge, we had to reach a unanimous decision, starting with the first charge of first-degree premeditated murder. If we couldn't unanimously agree on premeditated murder, then we were to move on to the next charge down, and so on until a consensus was found. The foreman started with a show of hands. Who thinks Jason Chen is guilty of first-degree premeditated murder?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
One by one, we went around the table. All but two hands went up. Those who hesitated were given a chance to speak, and the deliberations began. The obvious topic was premeditation, and we needed to be certain we understood what it meant. So what is premeditation?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
It's a word most people hear and immediately think of extensive methodical planning, like something out of a movie where the killer plots every detail out well in advance. But what I came to learn during this trial is that, at least in Tennessee, premeditation doesn't have to include an extensive drawn-out plan. Legally, it means an act done after the exercise of reflection and judgment.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And that can happen in an instant. All it requires is for someone to make a conscious decision to kill and have a moment, no matter how brief, to reflect on that decision before acting on it. Jason Chen didn't have to plan Jasmine's murder for days, hours, or even minutes. He just had to make the decision however quickly and then act on it.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Remember the prosecution's explanation of this with the yellow stoplight analogy in his closing statement? During his statement, D.A. Moyle pulled up a clip from the Arctic footage of Jason in his 2018 gray Toyota Corolla. Jason is seen waiting to turn right at the corner of Tremont and Fraser.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
The timestamp was 6.13 p.m., and the suitcase containing Jasmine Pace's body was already in the trunk of his car. Jason is in the turning lane as the traffic light above him flips from green to yellow. Traffic slows and a final car slips through at the last moment, just before the light turns red. Moyle pauses the video and explains the split-second decision that driver just made.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
We've all been there. We've all calculated the cost of tapping the brake or hitting the gas in that moment. A completely rational decision that really doesn't take long at all. It was a huge revelation, one that reframed how I understood the word premeditation. Back in the jury room, I recalled this analogy, if even in an effort to help explain it to myself.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
It was a gut punch, like a family suddenly being split apart. I remember feeling an ache in my stomach because those alternates weren't just observers. They were just as invested as the rest of us. They had listened to the same testimony, seen the same evidence, and developed their own opinions. But now the 16 of us were down to 12. 12 people who would carry the full weight of this next decision.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
There was a brief discussion before the group agreed to put it to another vote, and mere minutes after our deliberations had begun, the 12 of us had already unanimously agreed on the ultimate charge. The next vote for the charge of abuse of a corpse operated similarly, and resulted in another unanimous vote. We were done. Now what? It felt quick.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
I remember saying something to the group like, they're gonna say the jury deliberated for X amount of minutes. We've got to be sure. Is there anything else we should discuss? But what else was there?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
With this likely being my only opportunity to peruse, I pulled the box of evidence towards me and immediately picked up the large stack of 250 pages of printed paper containing the text messages between Jasmine and Jason. I wasn't looking for something new. I just needed to be sure. To see her voice again. And to see for myself that this relationship wasn't lopsided.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
It was like searching for something solid to hold on to. Some final piece of certainty in this cavernous void of finality. The bailiff had only brought in this one box of evidence. It contained printed photos, digital reports, all of the flash drives, and a laptop in case we needed to review any footage or photo evidence.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
We could also request to see any of the physical evidence that was still piled high in front of the judge's bench if we needed to. but we didn't need to see any of that again. The state had done a meticulous job of providing the evidence and proving their case. We were certain. The foreman flipped on the light switch, and a few moments later, the bailiff knocked on the door.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
It couldn't have been more than 30 minutes that had gone by. He poked his head in, a little confused, and asked if we meant to turn on the light switch. We did. Had we already come to a decision? We had.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
At 4.56 p.m., less than one hour after we were excused to deliberate, we were already making our way back into the courtroom. 44 minutes. That's all it took. From start to finish, it took us 44 minutes to deliberate and decide on the charges we believed were suitable for Jason Chen's actions.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
We, the jury, had found Jason Chen guilty of first-degree premeditated murder and abuse of a corpse. When the verdict was read, you could hear Jasmine's family exhale. There were audible gasps, maybe even a few whispered thank yous, and the kind of tears that come from holding your breath far too long. Judge Patterson gently hushed the room. It felt like a final moment, a heavy one.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
Judge Patterson didn't leave us much time to process. He continued right away, reading through our final instructions, explaining the legal framework we'd have to follow, the rules we'd need to abide by as we deliberated. It felt surreal. Everything we'd heard, everything we'd seen, was now left for us to make sense of.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And even the word guilty echoed through that room. I knew this would never really be over for them. Nothing we decided could bring Jasmine back. Nothing could undo what had been done. Once the verdict was read, Judge Patterson responded with words I didn't fully understand at the time. He said, as the 13th juror, I agree with this verdict.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
I remember feeling reassured, like he was in agreement with our unanimous decision. It felt like validation. It wasn't until later that I understood what he meant. The judge, acting as a 13th juror, is responsible for determining whether the evidence supports the jury's verdict. It's a safeguard, a final layer of confirmation, if you will.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 09: The Verdict and Sentencing
And in that moment, it was as if he was telling us, you did your job. You got it right. But our role as jurors wasn't done yet. Because of the charge we had decided on, we still had one more decision to make. How long Jason Chen would remain behind bars.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Before we begin, please be advised that this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence as presented during the trial. Please take care while listening. It's Monday, January 20th, 2025, day seven of the trial. But before we get there, let's just rewind real quick back to Sunday, our one and only day off during sequestration. We got to sleep in. Only a little, though.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, sequesteredpod.com. We've added exclusive blogs for every episode packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights, and key moments from the trial. Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial. so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way. That's when DA Moyle walked us through the timeline. At 11.42 p.m., Jasmine arrived at Jason's apartment. Hours later, at 2.11 a.m., a neighbor heard a scream, a woman's voice, sad but assertive. And then, silence. Just seven minutes after that, at 2.18 a.m., Jasmine's phone sent a location pin to her mother, Katrina Bean.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Patrons descend 260 feet underground in a glass front elevator, which feels both exciting and slightly alarming when you remember how deep you're actually going. From there, you wind through narrow, twisting passageways lined with stalactites and stalagmites, and ancient flowstone formations. The deeper you go, the cooler the air gets.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
A signal. A warning. Silence. Maybe even a final attempt to be found. By 3 a.m., there were no signs of a struggle. No more cries for help. Just the steady hum of a garbage disposal and a washing machine echoing through the silence. Premeditation doesn't always look like planning. It can happen in an instant. And once that moment arrived, Jason didn't hesitate.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
I've always believed that Jasmine helped solve her own murder by dropping that pen. It was a split-second decision on her part, but one that said everything. Something was wrong. After that, D.A. Moyle shifted his focus, not just on what Jason Chen had done, but on what he did next. Because after Jasmine was gone, Jason got to work. Not in panic, but in strategy.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
At 4.04 a.m., Jasmine's phone came back to life. Not because she was using it, but because Jason was. He was trying to access her bank accounts. And that was just the beginning of what Moyle called Chen's digital trail. Later that morning, Jason opened Tinder and started chatting with other women, just hours after killing Jasmine. Then he went to Walmart and bought cleaning supplies.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
By 11 a.m., he sent a photo of matcha tea with the caption, A twisted joke considering Jasmine's body was lying lifeless just a few feet away. Then Moyle turned to the brutality of the crime itself. Jasmine had been stabbed 60 times, and that each of those wounds required two deliberate movements, one in, one out. That's 120 choices.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Moyle painted Jason not as someone acting in a moment of chaos, but someone in full control of their actions. From the bank access, to the iCloud attempts, to the casual messages on Tinder. This wasn't someone spiraling. This was someone calculating.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
At 5.59 p.m., Jason wheeled a suitcase out of his apartment.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
And for the record, there are no bathrooms down there, so take it from me when I say, plan ahead. Just when you start wondering if this was a terrible idea, the tunnel gives way to a towering chamber, and there it is. Ruby Falls, cascading from above, its mist swirling in the glowing artificial light.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
He drove to Suck Creek Road, a place he had scouted out already, twice that day, and dumped her body. He wasn't frantic. He wasn't panicked. He was in control. And then, just hours later, he logged on to Call of Duty with his friends. Next, Moyle moves on to talk about how Jason shackled Jasmine's body.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
As he delivered his final argument, D.A. Moyle laid out what he believed to be the clearest proof of premeditation, Jason Chen's own actions. He argued that Chen wasn't out of control or acting in the heat of passion. Instead, every move Chen made was calculated, from restraining Jasmine to carrying out the attack to covering his tracks afterward.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
And most importantly, when he had the chance to stop, he didn't.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Then Moyle pulls up a photo of the autopsy again.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
It's breathtaking, almost surreal, like stumbling into a hidden world that's been waiting in silence for centuries. Juror's Verdict. Ruby Falls is guilty of being one of the coolest, weirdest, and most unexpectedly cinematic places I've ever been during sequestration. Highly recommended, but also hit the restroom first.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
The prosecution had made their case, arguing that Jason Chen's actions were calculated, premeditated, and intentional. And now it was the defense's turn. Oddly, it wasn't defense attorney Weiss resting his case. Instead, the defense's co-counsel, Amanda Morrison, took the floor. Morrison did not dispute that Jason Chen killed Jasmine Pace.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Instead, she challenged the idea that this was a planned act of murder. Morrison asked the jury to consider something different, that Jason's actions weren't cold and calculated, but rather a tragic moment of uncontrollable emotion. Here's how she began.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Morrison didn't deny what had happened. She acknowledged the brutal reality of Jasmine's death and admitted outright that Jason was responsible. It's still pretty wild to hear a defense attorney make these kinds of statements, but I knew there would be a catch, eventually. And then Morrison pushed back on one key point, that point being the idea that Jason had planned this murder ahead of time.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
After a leisurely lunch at Mayan Kitchen, which has great tapas, by the way, our next destination took us from the depths of the earth to the depths of the ocean, the Tennessee Aquarium. This place has a reputation for being one of the best aquariums in the country. And after stepping inside, I can see why.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
The state painted a picture of Jason Chen as cold and methodical, making calculated decisions every step of the way. But Morrison argued the opposite. Jason wasn't thinking rationally at all. In fact, she said, his behavior after Jasmine's death proved it.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Morrison suggested that Jason panicked and that his irrational, scattered choices were proof he hadn't planned anything in advance. She turned to face the jury box and said, if Jason had truly premeditated this murder, why did he leave so many mistakes behind? And in that moment, I swear she locked eyes with me. I mentioned this in an earlier episode.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
My seat was front row, third in, basically center stage. And as she spoke, her gaze didn't drift. It was steady, direct. Was it intentional? Was she trying to sway my thinking, make a connection? Maybe. Maybe not. But I felt it. Then she went after one of the prosecution's strongest arguments, that Jason restrained Jasmine before he killed her.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
If that were true, if the shackles were applied before the stabbing, it would be a powerful indicator of premeditation. But Morrison pushed back. She argued there was no proof of that sequence, no evidence that the restraints were there before Jasmine's death.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
The aquarium is split between two massive side-by-side buildings, one for freshwater and one for saltwater. Each experience starts at the top floor and winds downward floor by floor, drawing you deeper in to each ecosystem. Without question, the standout exhibit was the secret reef.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Morrison insisted that the shackles weren't applied before Jasmine's death. Instead, she argued that Jason used them after the fact to position Jasmine's body so it would fit inside the suitcase. To be fair, that point has always been a bit of a question mark for me.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
On day five, the medical examiner, Dr. Cogswell, testified that there were no ligature marks or abrasions on Jasmine's wrists or ankles, at least nothing that would clearly indicate she had been shackled while alive or during a struggle. But given the extent of her injuries, it's hard to know which one of the 60 stab wounds might have incapacitated her first.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
It would be extremely difficult, maybe even impossible, to rule anything out with certainty, especially considering that all of her injuries were consistent with her being in the fetal position at the time of the attack. Then, Morrison shifted. She turned away from the evidence and toward the legal standard we, as jurors, were expected to uphold.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Beyond a reasonable doubt, she challenged us to consider, did the prosecution actually prove that Jason had a moment to reflect? Because that, she said, is what premeditation requires.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
She reminded the jury it wasn't Jason's job to prove he didn't plan this murder. It was the state's job to prove that he did.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
If the jury couldn't be sure that Jason intended to kill Jasmine ahead of time, Then Morrison pleaded for us to consider the lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter. She pointed to Tennessee law, which allows for voluntary manslaughter if the killing happened in a state of passion.
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Episode 08: Closing Statements
a multi-story saltwater tank designed to replicate the Flower Garden Bank's National Marine Sanctuary, a protected reef system 100 miles off the coasts of Texas and Louisiana. Unlike many coral reefs struggling due to climate change, this one remains a thriving underwater ecosystem, home to manta rays, green sea turtles, and several species of sharks.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Morrison pointed to the yelling heard by Courtney, the downstairs neighbor, as a key piece of her argument. She claimed it was evidence of a heated argument, not a calculated plan, that Jason acted not out of control, but out of passion. And ultimately, she suggested that Jasmine provoked him. It was a heavy moment. a deliberate shift from accountability to justification.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
But Morrison didn't ask us to excuse what Jason did. In her final words, she acknowledged the brutal reality of Jasmine's death, and she said Jason should be held accountable, but for the right charge.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
And just like that, the defense rested. They had made their case not to deny what Jason Chen had done, but to reframe it. They argued he wasn't a cold-blooded killer, but a man who lost control. That this was a moment of passion, not premeditation. And now, it was the state's turn. District Attorney General Cody Womp stood before the jury one final time. You could feel it.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
This was her last opportunity to cut through the noise, to bring everything back into focus. And she came in sharp, confident, direct, unapologetically fired up. She told us the defense hadn't even stuck to the story they laid out in their opening statement. Because they couldn't. Because the evidence didn't support it. And instead of clarity, she said they had tried to muddy the waters.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Right after that, DA Womp walked over to the podium, grabbed a thick folder of papers, and gave it a shake. At first, I wasn't sure what it was. But then it clicked. It was the transcript of the opening statements. And that moment hit harder than I expected. Those opening statements were what our entire job as jurors had hinged on just seven days earlier.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
As I stood in front of the towering tank, a majestic sea turtle glided through the water above me. It was mesmerizing, the kind of scene that makes you stop, take a breath, and forget, even just for a moment, everything else happening in the world above. I could have stood there for hours.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
I even recall juror number five passing a note to the judge on that first day, asking if we'd have access to the transcript during our deliberations. His response? Simply no. So to hear the defense's opening statement read back to us now, by the state, in the final minutes of this trial, it wasn't just a helpful move, it was a baller one.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
I'm going to play this next clip uninterrupted so you can hear it just like I did in the moment as a juror.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
If our morning at Ruby Falls was about uncovering hidden natural wonders beneath our feet, this stop was about looking outward into a world that exists far beyond us, one that keeps moving whether we're paying attention or not. Juror's verdict? The Tennessee Aquarium? A stunning glimpse into the ocean's quiet power, worth every second. After a brief respite, Monday came quickly.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Then General Womp reminds the jury of the opening statements that the defense claimed.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
The courtroom doors reopened and the weight of the trial settled back onto our shoulders. What we didn't know yet was that today would be the last time we'd hear from the attorneys. Their final arguments. Their last chance to shape how we viewed everything we'd seen and heard. Because after today, the trial wouldn't belong to the prosecution or the defense anymore. It would belong to the jury.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
And then D.A. Womp took it even further. She didn't just reference the defense's words. She read them aloud. Specifically, the part where they explain why Jason Chen tried to cover up Jasmine's murder. According to the defense, quote, he was scared, end quote. Let's get into how D.A. Womp handled that moment.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Instead of the usual 6 a.m. knock on the door, we all enjoyed an extra 30 minutes of rest. Small victories. Breakfast today was from 7 to 7.30, and by 8.30, we were loaded into our two vans, ready to embark on our first excursion. Ruby Falls. As a sequestered juror, I didn't have much to say in my itinerary, but when our handlers whisked us away to Ruby Falls, I wasn't mad about it either.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Womp closed the folder she'd been reading from and paused. She didn't rush. She just stood there, serious, grounded, and fully present. You could feel the passion behind her words, but she kept it steady. Then she slipped her hands into her pockets, looked at the jury, and said she had a couple more requests.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Let's listen as DA Womp delivers the final words of her closing argument, the last message she would leave us with before deliberation.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
This is Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11. Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is Episode 8, Closing Statements. Day 7 began like the others.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
General Womp closed her argument by asking us to remember who this trial was really about. And not only will I remember, I will never forget that this was the trial for Jasmine Pace. That's why we were there. Jasmine is why we were there. She's who we were seeking justice for. And now, the start of that task, the real job of a jury, was just moments away.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
But before we could begin deliberating, Judge Patterson had one final official duty, selecting the alternates. If you remember from the first episode, 16 jurors were selected for this trial. We knew from the beginning that four of us would be chosen as alternates. But until now, we had no idea who. Still, all 16 of us were expected to remain fully present throughout the entire trial.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
The reason for having extra jurors in a case of this magnitude is simple. If someone experienced a personal emergency, or was exposed to media coverage along the way, or became unable to continue for any reason, they'd be excused. But that didn't happen. Our group made it all the way through. So now, with no clear criteria to go by, the selection would be made at random.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Literally, names drawn from a plastic cup. Can we just pause to take in the weight of that? On January 9th, 2025, 16 people were plucked from their lives in Nashville, Tennessee, and shipped off to Chattanooga to serve on this grand jury. We didn't really have a choice in the matter. Some of us were excited. All of us were nervous. But every single one of us chose to show up.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
We sat through days of testimony, graphic evidence, legal language, and emotional testimony. And now, four of us would be plucked again. Only this time, they'd be silenced. No deliberation, no voice, no opportunity to fulfill what we'd all come here to do. A clear plastic cup was handed to the judge. Inside, 16 tiny folded slips of paper. One by one, names were drawn.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Juror 12, Juror 5, Juror 6, and Juror 16. The alternates were thanked for their service and asked to leave the courtroom immediately. Each of them stood, rose from those blue, squeaky office chairs, and awkwardly shuffled out of the jury box, stunned and confused. The extra chair that had to be put in for Juror 16 every time we entered the jury box was left out for good this time. They were gone.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
And without skipping a beat, Judge Patterson moved straight into the next portion of the trial, reading through the formalities of our upcoming duties as a jury. He explained that we would receive a copy of these instructions once we were in the jury room for deliberations. I tried my best to follow along, but honestly, my mind was scattered.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
We had just lost a piece of our group, and now the most significant part of our job was moments away. For the first time, we would finally be able to talk to one another about this case. As you know, up until now, we had been strictly admonished every single day not to discuss the trial with fellow jurors, not to look up any information, not to form opinions out loud.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
And now, suddenly, that wall was gone. We were just minutes away from saying anything we wanted about this case for the first time. I'm saving the details of our deliberation and the verdict for the next episode. But I want to close with something special. A journal entry from juror number five. One of the four names drawn as an alternate.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
When I heard her name called from the judge, I muttered to myself, oh no. Because it was so clear to me she was our foreperson. She had that energy, that presence, that ability to lead with clarity and care. I even remember telling her on our way out of the hotel one morning that she looked like a famous author or something.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
I just loved her style, her perspective, her way of moving through the world. She was committed to this case. Oddly enough, just a couple nights before, she predicted that she'd be one of the alternates. She said it almost casually over dinner. So when Judge Patterson actually read her name, I was shocked. Because in so many ways, she felt like the heart of the group.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Breakfast, security, back into the jury room. We had no idea what the day would hold, but it didn't take long to find out. Inside the courtroom, the final pieces of the case were starting to fall into place. The state was given the opportunity to respond to the defense's case, but they declined. With no rebuttal, the defense formally rested its case at 9.42 a.m.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Next time on Sequestered, the verdict and sentencing of Jason Chen.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
After all the testimony, all the evidence, all the facts, the verdict comes down to one decision. Was the murder of Jasmine Pace premeditated? We'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved and the weight of seeking justice.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us. Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde. News clips featured in this episode were sourced from WTVC News Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga, and the Law and Crime Network.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death. For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
But before the trial could move forward, the court had to address one final legal battle, one that could alter how the jury weighed the case. Which charges would we be allowed to consider?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Defense attorney Weiss pushed for the inclusion of voluntary manslaughter, citing testimony from a neighbor who had heard a woman scream and an argument that suggested a crime of passion rather than premeditated murder. Weiss framed it as a possible case of self-defense, an impulsive act rather than an intentional killing.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
But DA Cody Womp stood her ground and pushed back, arguing that Tennessee law is clear. Murder can only be reduced to voluntary manslaughter if the victim's actions provoked the defendant. And according to the prosecution, there was no evidence that Jasmine Pace had done anything to provoke Jason Chen that could possibly justify a lesser charge.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Shortly after this, the jury received detailed instructions on the charges against Jason Chen. There were six possible verdicts related to Jasmine's death, ranging from first-degree premeditated murder to criminally negligent homicide. On top of that, we were given a second separate charge, abuse of a corpse. For each charge, we were instructed to reach a unanimous decision, starting at the top.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
If we didn't agree on first-degree murder, we were to move to the next charge down, then the next, and so on until we found consensus. The same process applied to the abuse of a corpse charge. I didn't have the guts to look around the room at this moment. For me, the pressure was building, and I'm sure my fellow jurors could feel it too. the weight of what was coming next. It was real.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
These jury instructions were long, repetitive, detailed, and honestly, this was probably the first time I felt sleepy while court was in session. Still, they were important. Judge Patterson was laying out the exact framework we were expected to follow when we enter deliberations, what each charge meant, how to weigh the evidence, and what a unanimous decision would require.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Here is Mary Beth Magrum from News Channel 9 summarizing these instructions.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
After days of sitting in a courtroom, the idea of a subterranean adventure felt oddly fitting. Deep beneath Lookout Mountain lies Ruby Falls, one of the most extraordinary underground waterfalls in the world. Hidden 1,120 feet below the surface, this 145-foot cascade tumbles through a limestone cavern, glowing under an otherworldly display of colorful lights.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
We had heard every piece of evidence. We had seen the surveillance footage, reviewed forensic reports, and listened to expert testimony. Now it was time for the final argument, the moment the prosecution laid out exactly why Jason Chen was absolutely guilty of first-degree premeditated murder and abuse of a corpse. Assistant District Attorney Paul Moyle stepped forward.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
His words were powerful and his delivery was sharp. I closed my notebook and sat up straight in my chair.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
There was one person in that courtroom who saw Exhibit 138-6, the suitcase found on the banks of the Tennessee River, as an inconvenience, something to be discarded. But Jasmine Pace's family saw it differently. To them, she was everything. I had to give Moyle credit for how he explained premeditation.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
In the end, it was this analogy that clarified it for me and ultimately shaped my decision in the jury room. He compared Jason's decision-making to something we've all experienced. Approaching a yellow traffic light. In that split second, you have to choose. Hit the gas or tap the brake. It happens fast, but it's still a decision. A conscious choice to keep going or to stop.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
Jason's decision was no different. It was quick, but it was deliberate. And the consequences were irreversible.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
It's as dramatic as it sounds, and after nearly a week of legal proceedings, a little theatrical lighting felt right on brand. Discovered in 1928 by Leo Lambert, Ruby Falls was named after his wife, Ruby, which is adorable. Getting there is an adventure in its own.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 08: Closing Statements
It all came down to a moment of decision. Do you slow down or do you hit the gas? Jason Chen didn't just keep going. He accelerated. He had so many opportunities to stop, to deescalate, to walk away. But every single time he made the same choice. He chose violence. He chose control. He chose murder. If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Before we begin, please be advised that this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence as presented during the trial. Please take care while listening. It's Wednesday, January 15th, 2025. By now, we, the jurors, are moving into the routine of our new job. The lobby call at our hotel has become a steady expectation.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
And he wasn't satisfied with how the Blue Star test was applied, reminding the jury that it's only a presumptive test, not a definitive proof of blood.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Weiss also pointed out what he felt was a critical gap in the investigation. Not all of the evidence was tested.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Walgreens, Walmart, isopropyl alcohol, bounty paper towels, hydrogen peroxide. All purchased on November 23, 2022, the day Jasmine disappeared. The debit card used for these purchases? It matched the one found in Jason Chen's wallet. And then, one final unsettling fact. A box of trash bags that should have held 40 now contained only 11 or 12.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
with the entire courtroom standing, mind you, and quietly take our seats in the utter silence that filled the air. And then, clunk, a bailiff would maneuver the final 30-pound rolling blue office chair into the last block of space in the front row of the jury box. Then, the last juror was finally able to take her seat. This too had become a part of the routine, but today felt different.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
We already know that Jasmine's body had been wrapped in three layers. Where were the other bags? Okay, I get it. We don't know exactly when Chen purchased that box, or how many had already been used before the night of November 22nd. But sitting in that courtroom, it was impossible to ignore the unspoken question hanging in the air. What happened to the rest of the bags? It's interesting.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
After my sequestration, when my producer and I went back to Chattanooga to visit the location sites mentioned during the trial... We ended up sitting in the parking lot of the Walmart that Chen was seen visiting. Before leaving, we decided to take a drive around the rear of the building to get an idea of their dumpster situation.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
We already know that the dumpsters at the lofts at Tremont were thoroughly searched and no trash bags containing cleanup efforts were collected. There was a whole lot of blood in his apartment and Jason had a big mess to clean up. I want to know where he disposed of all that material. I wondered if he took it with him on one of those trips to Walmart.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Here's a clip of my producer and I counting the dumpsters behind Walmart on that day. Okay, so now we're going to go look for dumpsters at the Walmart, just in case. There are so many questions I wish I would have asked now that I'm on this side of the case, and this is one of them. Not only was there any footage captured from Walmart's parking lot of Jason Chin sitting in the parking lot.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Secondly, were any dumpsters searched or looked through? It may have been totally irrelevant at that point because...
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
you know footage may have been obtained much later dumpsters may have been dumped by then I don't know but there could have been footage potentially so we're going to see what kind of dumpsters could be around we did talk to one person who thought the dumpsters would be locked up so let's just go see what it looks like okay there's a set of dumpsters over here too Okay, yep.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
So there's two dumpsters over here to the right. There's one dumpster up against the side wall of Walmart. The ones on the right don't even look like they belong to Walmart, so he could have easily put them there. And as we're turning the corner to go on the backside of Walmart, there are one, two, three, four dumpsters lined up that he could have had access to.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
And then on the other side, opposite of the rear of Walmart, is a wooded area, which could have easily had anything discarded over there. So the knife has never been found. The phone has never been found. Bloody towels, any of this kind of stuff has never been discovered. So who knows if that has ended up in a landfill somewhere by now. If it was cast over into the woods somewhere, who knows?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you. Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, sequesteredpod.com. We've added exclusive blogs for every episode packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights and key moments from the trial. Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way. Next to the stand, prosecutors would call crime scene investigator Kristen Schubert. Schubert was one of the CSI experts assigned to the search of 110 Tremont Street on November 28, 2022.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
When we stepped into the courtroom this time, my eyes immediately went to the floor in front of the jury box where a large blue tarp had been laid out, covering the space just feet from where I would take my seat. I didn't know exactly what was coming, but I knew one thing. Today, we were stepping into the crime scene.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Her role in this search was to apply the Bluestar forensic agent, a chemical designed to react with traces of blood. These results were clearly seen in numerous evidence photos presented thus far in the trial, but the defense was ready to poke holes in Schubert's findings. Could the reaction have been caused by bleach? No bleach was found in the apartment. But here's a key detail.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
No second test was performed to confirm that the substance was blood.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Among the items collected was a gray long-sleeved sweatshirt, removed from Chen's apartment. Investigators also turned their attention to Jasmine's car, a white Chevy Equinox, the same vehicle found abandoned on Mountain Creek Road. Every inch was examined, searching for anything that could piece together the final moments before her disappearance.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Suck Creek Road, a quiet wooded stretch along the Tennessee River in Chattanooga, Tennessee. It's gorgeous, actually. The river raging on one side and on the other, lush forested landscapes peak between walls of limestone. Beautiful homes line the river's edge as you make your way into Prentiss Cooper State Forest. You'll remember from episode one how beautiful and outdoorsy this area is.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
And in November, the colors would have been stunning on Sutt Creek Road. Later in the trial, we'll have insight into the casual moments of Jasmine and Jason's relationship. Just days before she went missing, Jasmine sent Jason a text recommending that he go see the fall foliage on Sutt Creek Road. The word Sut was obviously autocorrected from Suck here, but how chilling, right?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Turns out Jason did take that drive along Suck Creek Road, but we all know he wasn't taking in the fall foliage. No, he was searching for the best place to dump a body. Next, Prosecutor Moyle shifts the courtroom's focus to the scene on Suck Creek Road. Schubert had been called just moments after investigators discovered the suitcase.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
This is Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11. Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is episode four, Inside the Crime Scene.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
A quick reminder before we continue, this next part is heavy. We're about to discuss some graphic details from the crime scene, including evidence that was shown in court. If you need to skip ahead or take a break, please do. Once the suitcase was transported to the medical examiner's office, its contents would be revealed, and investigators would finally locate Jasmine Pace.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Her tiny body lay inside the suitcase, handcuffed and shackled in the fetal position, and wrapped inside three layers of trash bags. Here's something chilling that we would learn. The keys were still attached to the handcuffs.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
CSI Kristen Schubert had carefully documented each detail as the medical examiner peeled back every layer, revealing the brutality of what had been concealed inside of that suitcase. The weight of the moment was undeniable. General Moyle and Judge Patterson warned the courtroom the next images would be difficult to see.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
A hush fell over the room because once these photos were shown, there would be no looking away.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
The garbage bags were hung to dry, then swabbed for DNA, processed for fingerprints, and finally packaged and submitted into evidence. Schubert also collected swabs from the suitcase, carefully testing the handles, zippers, and other key areas for any trace of forensic evidence. From my vantage point, Jason Chen never once looked up while these images were shown.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Sitting in the courtroom each day, I often wondered what he was thinking as evidence and timelines unfolded. Was he processing it all? Was he reliving those moments? Now I wondered, as the gears of this trial were shifting, was he more prepared than the rest of us for what was coming next? The defense takes the stand and shifted the focus.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
A receipt from Elevated Hemp Company was found in Jasmine's car, time-stamped November 22nd at 3.16pm. It showed the purchase of two disposable vape pens. It seemed like the defense was trying to introduce doubt, maybe even suggesting that Jasmine was under the influence that night. They didn't stop there.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
The defense also turned its attention back to the Blue Star testing, raising questions about possible scene contamination and attempting to plant uncertainty in the jury's mind.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
The prosecution called their next witness to the stand, Michelle Johnson, a seasoned crime scene investigator with years of experience. Michelle was a middle-aged woman with shoulder-length blonde hair, wearing glasses and a light blue pantsuit with a black blouse. Serious and guarded, she carried herself with the confidence of someone who had seen it all.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Investigators need a DNA proof, something concrete to tie the evidence together. Enter Greg Martis, a retired crime scene investigator with years of forensic experience. His job was to collect the genetic reference samples that would confirm Jasmine Pace's identity. He gathered a couple of toothbrushes and a hair clip from Jasmine's house, ensuring they would provide a reliable DNA profile.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Then he collected swabs from each of her parents. Their genetic markers would serve as the key comparison in the forensic process. It was a necessary step, a clinical process, but one that carried an undeniable weight. A family's DNA, not just confirming identity, but solidifying loss.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Next on the witness stand was Jerry McElroy, tasked with handling a crucial step in the forensic process, fingerprinting Jason Chen and ensuring that key evidence made its way to the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, or TBI. His role may not have been as high profile as the others, but it was just as essential.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Every fingerprint, every properly logged piece of evidence, every chain of custody detail mattered. In a case like this, even the smallest misstep could become fuel for reasonable doubt. Finally, investigators turn to technology. After all, digital evidence doesn't lie. TBI's digital forensic expert, Rachel Bakaletz, took the stand next.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Her job was to extract data from the SIM card found in Jason Chen's backpack. The results? A phone number. An ICC number. Tiny breadcrumbs in a digital trail, each one with a potential key to unlocking the truth. And then, a discovery. From the SIM card, Bakulets identified the phone number associated with it. And it wasn't Chen's. It was Jasmine's. Next week on Sequestered.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
She was stern, yet soft-spoken, and gave the distinct impression that she wouldn't be easily swayed. Plainly put, Michelle Johnson was no rookie. This wasn't the first crime scene she had stepped into. Everyone who entered that apartment saw it through their own lens. The Pace family searching for answers and investigators piecing together evidence.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
The medical examiner takes us through Jasmine Pace's autopsy, bringing new insight to what really happened inside Jason Chen's apartment. Stick with us. We're in the thick of it now. Thank you for listening to Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved and the weight of seeking justice.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us. Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde. News clips featured in this episode were sourced from WTBC News Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga, and the Law and Crime Network.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death. For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
But Johnson, she had one focus honed by experience. She was looking for blood and she found it. There was blood everywhere, smeared behind the couch, on the doorframe, spattered on the wall, and soaked into the tile grout and carpet. Johnson described the Blue Star reaction as one of the strongest she'd ever seen.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
And once we're in our jury room at the courthouse, everyone just kind of moves into their spot. I think by this point, we had all gotten a taste for the task at hand. There was no exiting this scenario. It was just time to move in and do the job. It was only day three of the trial, after all. A knock at the door signaled it was time.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Next, the prosecution displayed a diagram of Chen's apartment, depicting the layout of the unit along with a couple of dozen circled numbers written in. Each number represented with a marker that pointed to a piece of evidence. Leading the questioning was Chief Homicide Prosecutor Paul Moyle, working in tandem with Michelle Johnson to methodically present the crime scene evidence.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Tall and slender with short reddish blonde hair and a neatly trimmed beard, Moyle had the air of a prosecutor who had spent years dissecting cases just like this one. Dressed in a sharp three-piece gray suit, a crisp white button-down, and a navy blue tie, he exuded quiet authority, polished, prepared, and precise.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
If Johnson was the steady, unshakable witness, Moyle was her perfect counterpart, relentless, measured, and razor-sharp in his approach. He didn't grandstand or overplay his hand. Instead, he guided Johnson through the evidence with the confidence of a prosecutor who knew exactly how to build his case, brick by brick.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
With a nod, he now directed her attention to a large evidence box sitting on the floor just outside of the witness stand. Inside, a seven-foot section of blood-stained carpet, cut straight from the floor of Jason Chen's apartment. Prosecutor Moyle asked CSI Johnson to open the large evidence box. She stepped out of the witness stand, picked up a pair of scissors, and began unsealing the box.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
With Moyle's help, the large piece of carpet, along with its blue under padding, would be unfolded and laid out on the tarp just steps in front of the jury box. The stain was massive, roughly the size of a body curled in the fetal position. It saturated the carpet like a dark, haunting shadow of what had happened there.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
The blood, deep reddish brown, oxidized with time, had not just soaked in, but seeped through, penetrating both the carpet and the padding beneath it. This wasn't just a surface stain. It had saturated and pooled all the way to the subfloor. In the last episode, during Investigator Crawford's testimony, crime scene photos made it impossible to ignore this grim reality.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
We gathered our things, lined up, and took the solemn walk across the hallway into the courtroom. The door of the courtroom held open by one of our deputies as we stepped inside. Everyone is standing as we make our way into the jury box. I make it to my seat in the front row, third chair in.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
We saw each of these layers peeled back, the carpet lifted and the under padding, until the final imprint was revealed. Blood pooled on the wooden floorboard beneath, a silent witness to the violence that had unfolded in that very spot. With this section of carpet now laying on the floor of the courtroom, Judge Patterson invited the jury to stand for a better perspective.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
I pushed myself up, leaning over the edge of the jury box. From this angle, I could see the underside of the carpet facing up, where the stain was most clearly visible. The section of carpet was at least seven feet wide, and Jasmine's blood filled more than half of the space. The sheer scale of it was staggering.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Later in the trial, the medical examiner would confirm that nearly every ounce of Jasmine's blood had drained from her body. Even without that knowledge in this moment, I stood there, staring at the evidence, unable to shake a single overwhelming thought. How much blood would it take to create a stain this big?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Here's a clip of News Channel 9's Latricia Thomas and Meg Doyle talking about this part of the trial.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
I mentioned in a previous episode that 14 of the blue office-style jury chairs were bolted to the ground, seven in the front row and seven in the back. But there were 16 jurors sitting through this trial. The four alternates wouldn't be selected until just before the deliberation phase. So that meant two extra chairs had to be added to accommodate all 16 of us.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
I also want to mention the glass fragments. Small shards were found in the living room. The jury watched as these fragments were admitted into evidence. And when I say they were tiny, I mean minute. You may recall the defense argued in their opening statement that Jasmine attacked Chen first with a wine bottle, then with a broken wine glass.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
But as CSI Johnson prepared to reveal this evidence, the reality told a different story. Using scissors, Johnson carefully opened a small envelope and emptied the tiny glass particles onto a black piece of paper. At Moyle's request, she folded the paper into a makeshift bowl, then passed it to him. With deliberate steps, Moyle carried it over to the projector.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Now magnified on the screen, the courtroom could finally see them, the so-called fragments of a violent struggle. I'm being generous here, but there were maybe 10 pieces of glass, the largest no more than a few centimeters in diameter, and the rest practically dust. Then came Moyle's response. Now on to Chen's car. A 2018 gray Toyota Camry sitting parked in the impound lot, silent and unassuming.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
But investigators know better. If there was nothing to hide, why go to such lengths to conceal it in his parents' garage? Forensic teams combed through every inch of the vehicle, dusting for fingerprints, swabbing surfaces, and documenting any trace of evidence. The exterior, the handles, the seats, nothing was overlooked.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Overall, the car looked pretty clean, but it was the trunk that held their attention. The trunk's rubber mat showed unmistakable tracks, parallel streaks of dirt imprinted across its surface, marks that looked eerily similar to the path left by suitcase wheels. With the jury watching, investigators conduct a side-by-side comparison.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
A matching, freestanding blue office chair on wheels sat at the end of each row. The back row's extra chair stayed put throughout the trial. But the front row? Now that was a different story. The way the jury box was designed meant that the extra chair had to be added after we all took our seats. So, every single time we entered the room, 15 of us would file in,
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Once again, the suitcase Jasmine's remains were found in was presented. With gloves on, Moyle held the suitcase at a horizontal angle so that the wheels were facing the jury. Standing next to him, Johnson held up the trunk liner, comparing the wheels of the suitcase with the imprints on the mat. The realization settled over the room like a heavy weight, proving this was more than just a theory.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
This small card contained a preserved sample of Jasmine Pace's blood, collected for DNA comparison against evidence found at the crime scene. Investigators used it to confirm whether bloodstains in Chen's apartment or on any of the other key items collected matched Jasmine's DNA. but the defense wasn't satisfied.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 04: Inside the Crime Scene
Defense attorney Weiss pushed back, questioning the collection process and raising concerns about possible contamination, planting seeds of doubt before the jury.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
To have see what everyone was thinking. Okay, let me just get this thought out of my head versus waiting until deliberation and going I Maybe it took less time to deliberate because of that. That's interesting. That's very interesting perspective.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
That probably gets in your head too.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
It's like you said in your closing, it was all muddy water, just to confuse us.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
I loved how seriously they took the jurors questions like they didn't just tolerate them, you know, like they welcomed them. Yeah. And from our perspective, I think it made us feel seen like our confusion and our curiosity wasn't just background noise, you know? Yeah. Like it was part of the process. I'd even argue that it helped the process. And I don't know.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Okay, let's start at the beginning. How this whole thing came to be.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
I just think it was a really cool opportunity.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah. And I think this is where it got emotional because they talked about Jasmine and her family. And it was really clear that they weren't just trying a case, you know, like they were carrying the weight of someone's life.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Right. Yeah, I know. It reminded me that everyone in the courtroom was carrying something with regards to this. Yeah. And like for them, it wasn't just about putting Jason Chan on trial. Right. This was about making sure Jasmine's voice didn't get lost in the legal process.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
And we felt the weight of that every day.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Okay, the last thing we talked about with DA's Womp and Moyle was the appeal Jason Chen's legal team filed to challenge the verdict. The appeal was filed on the grounds that the verdict was, quote, contrary to the evidence, with claims that Chen was denied a fair trial due to alleged evidence being tampered with by Jasmine's family.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
As of the release of this episode, there have been no publicly reported updates regarding his appeal, which was scheduled for April 11th, 2025.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Right. Okay, and to be honest, I didn't exactly set out to become a juror or a true crime podcaster for that. But here we are. But here we are. OK, so let's talk about how sequestered came to life, like what surprised us most while creating it and how it's changed us along the way. OK, great.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
So to be clear, an appeal is not a new trial. It is not about re-arguing the facts of the case. It's a legal review to determine whether anything was done improperly or unfairly in the process.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah. For Jasmine's family, for the jurors, for anyone who's lived this story, I think it just brings it all back up. Right. But the DA's made it clear they stand by the work they've done. And so do I, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's answer some unanswered questions and theories. Okay, great.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Even with a guilty verdict and an appeal, there are still things about this case that don't quite sit right with us. Like little details that weren't part of the courtroom evidence, but stuck with us anyway.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
One of the questions we kept coming back to had to do with Jason Chen's movements the day he drove from his parents' home in Nolensville, Tennessee, back to Chattanooga. So this would have been November 26, 2022, which is also the same day his apartment would have been searched. Yeah. If you remember from the trial, phone records showed that he never actually went back to his apartment.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
He was just in the area. His phone pinged near it at a park nearby, but he never entered his apartment complex again. Instead, those same records showed that he drove north up into the Hickson area. And that always stood out to us. Like, why did he go up there? What's in Hickson? Yeah. Yeah.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
We know from Investigator Crawford's testimony that the search warrant for Jason Chen's apartment was granted at 11.45 p.m. that same night. So what was Jason back in town for? Surely by now, Investigator Crawford had already been calling his phone. Was he curious about any activity around his apartment, checking to see if the police were already involved?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Or was there something else pulling him back? Then, Hamilton reveals another twist. Jason leaves the North Shore area around 9.30 p.m., heading towards Hickson, a community just north of Chattanooga. And according to his phone records, Jason stays in the Hickson area until about 10.15 p.m. before heading back to Nolensville. So what's in Hickson? Jasmine's house. Her family's house.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
What in the world was Jason doing there? And more importantly, why? So as it turns out, he was at a car wash. Right. Which I guess makes sense, but also still feels a little eerie, you know, like knowing what happened.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
It's the kind of detail that doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it adds to the picture. Like, what was his state of mind? What was he thinking? Yeah.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Right. Yeah. I remember talking about that, too. Like, like, why not open the trunk and wipe that down real quick? If that liner in the back of his trunk was so clean otherwise. I mean, it looked practically brand new aside from the two wheel marks from the suitcase. Yeah. Right.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Mm hmm. And so we mentioned this theory to DA's Wampum Oil, and both of them noted that the Apple Watch has never been found. Wow. And for what it's worth, this also wasn't mentioned in the trial. So we don't know if Jason took it or destroyed it or if it's still out there somewhere. But one thing we do know is that that pin solved her murder. Yes, exactly.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yes, please do. You can email us at sequesteredpod at gmail.com. And trust me when I say we read everything.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Wow. I don't think I ever imagined how big this would get. I've I've seriously been blown away by the response. Yeah, me too. Like by how people have listened and reached out and shared their own stories, like the support from both listeners and media has been just overwhelming in the best way. Wouldn't you say? I agree.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah. That's cool. And through it all, like what I keep coming back to is Jasmine. Right. Like I just, I guess I just, I hope people remember her name. Yes. Jasmine Pace or Jazzy as her friends and family called her. She just had an unwavering love and a vibrant spirit and a family that just fought so fiercely to find her and make sure justice was served. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Right. Yeah. And what surprised me was how much I was still carrying like after those 10 days in Chattanooga. Right. I saw and heard things in the courtroom that I hadn't obviously not even begun to process yet. Yeah. But once you and I started mapping out the episodes, it became super clear that this wasn't going to just be about the trial. Like I wanted to tell Jasmine's story.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Okay, so as for what's next, there's more to come. Yes. While the odds of me being sequestered again are highly unlikely... I am not done telling these stories. There are too many lives that have ended far too soon and just too many questions still looming in the dark. We're already working on our next case and we've got a few ideas brewing, but we also want to hear from you.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
And if this podcast has meant something to you, if Jazzy's story has stayed with you, please take a moment to rate and review the show. It might seem small, but it actually helps more than you think.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Also, stay subscribed. We'll be dropping more bonus episodes with updates, thoughts and anything we feel you should know as new information surfaces.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yes. This has been a wild few months, hasn't it? It has. We've heard from so many of you, listeners and journalists and survivors. Yes. Yes. Even people connected to the trial. And we've realized there were still a few stories left to tell. Things that didn't quite make it into the main episodes and moments we just wanted to sit with a little longer.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
It's true. So many of the comments from listeners are sending your family their love and reassurance that Jasmine's name will never be forgotten. Thanks to all of you for being here, for listening and for remembering Jazzy with us.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde. Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah, and that's a tricky balance, I would say. Yeah. We wanted to be honest, obviously, but not exploitative. Yeah. We wanted to be detailed, but not graphic just for the sake of it. Right. Like there were a lot of moments where we, where you and I had to pause and say, is this respectful? Yeah. Does this serve the story or is it just our curiosity, you know?
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Right. Yeah. And now seeing this story land on Dateline and being featured on Apple Podcasts, it's kind of surreal. Like we made this in a tiny room with one microphone, a lot of coffee and a whole bunch of all nighters. That's true.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
It's wild and it's just emotional because the more attention the podcast gets, the more I think about Jasmine's mom and her family and the ripple effect this case had on the community. And I just, I don't know. I just hope we did her justice.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this special bonus episode of Sequestered. I'm Sarah, and this is my co-producer, Andrea. Hey, everyone.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah, that was not something I saw coming. One minute I'm editing in my office and the next thing I know, I'm sitting across from Dateline producers with cameras and lights in a retro hotel being asked to talk about one of the most intense experiences of my life. That's true. I think what struck me the most was how much the Dateline team genuinely cared about honoring Jasmine's life.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Like they didn't just want the crime details, you know, they wanted to understand the people at the heart of it.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Sort of both. There was a part of me that felt really proud. Like, OK, this story matters. People are listening. Yeah. But it also stirred stuff up, you know, like seeing crime scene photos again. And yet here you are again, still telling Jazzy's story. Right. Because she deserves it. Yeah. Yeah.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
So I guess here's a good place to say, if you haven't seen the Dateline episode about Jasmine Pace yet, it's called The Pin at Apartment 210. And you can see it at datelinembc.com or on Peacock.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Right. Yeah, I mean... It's kind of hard to describe, but I'm sure everyone can imagine like you're cut off from everything, your phone, the news, social media, like your people. And during the day, you're absorbing hours and hours of testimony. And then at night, you're just alone with it in the silence of your room. Right.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah, probably both. Again, some nights I'd crash like the second I'd hit the bed, just mentally drained from like listening to the intensity of it all.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
But but other nights I couldn't turn it off. Like I'd replay certain witness moments over and over and I'd hear Jasmine's mom's voice or the medical examiner's tone or just something Jason's defense said that didn't sit right with me, you know. Right. And there was just no way not to carry it with me.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah, a couple of times. Well, I mean, I would say several times. Wow. There were definitely times even during jury selection in Nashville and multiple times during the trial that we made eye contact because of my seating position in the jury box. Mm-hmm. It was always very obvious like when I would look at him because I had to physically turn my head to the left to see him. Oh, I see.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Like to see him or the courtroom. And it wasn't like I could just glance across the room at him. Yeah. So when I turned, we couldn't help but make eye contact.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah, I know I talked a little bit about this in the podcast. At first I thought, okay, maybe he can't even look at what he did or like maybe he's ashamed or even maybe like he was instructed not to look up at the projector screens.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
When like graphic photos were shown, just... I don't know, out of reverence, whatever. So his head was down the entire time. But then I noticed there was this like monitor built into the table that he was sitting at. So it was like a glass tabletop and this kind of monitor like mounted underneath. And I was so curious about it throughout the trial.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
But again, if I turn my head to the left, he's going to see me looking at him. So I just didn't want to do that. Yeah. So I didn't know until after the trial was over, I texted the bailiff kind of while making this podcast. And that's when he confirmed that every time an image was projected on the screen, it would also be projected on the screens in front of him. In front of Jason Chen. Right.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
In front of Jason Chen at his desk. Wow. So he was actually seeing the images that we were seeing the whole time, probably more defined than even what we were seeing. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
And a heads up, you'll also hear us refer to Jasmine as Jazzy throughout the episode. That's what our friends and family called her. And in the courtroom, we really only knew her as Jasmine. So now that we've spent so much time with her story, we want to think of her as Jazzy, too.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Right. Absolutely. And and they were they were keeping track of our energy, our eye contact, our body language, you know, everyone else in the courtroom. Yeah. And for them, we had to keep track of that every day, not just because we had to make a decision. But once you're in that room, you feel the weight of that responsibility. So you just you just want to get it right.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah, this is something that didn't come up in the trial, but we found out about later. And that is that investigators discovered several photos on Jason Chen's phone of a very specific art piece that he took while he was on a trip in D.C. visiting the Smithsonian. So I looked it up. The piece is called The Birth of Eve, and it's by an artist named Judith Schechter.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
She's a stained glass artist from Philadelphia who's completely redefined the medium. It's actually really beautiful. Her work uses the visual language of Gothic cathedrals, like stuff you'd see in old churches. But instead of saints or angels, she explores pain, emotion, and isolation. It's really raw. Mm-hmm.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
So this piece is part of the permanent collection at the Smithsonian if you ever find yourself there. It depicts a nude woman suspended upside down and is curled tightly in the fetal position. Her arms and legs are pulled in close, almost like she's being held or confined by something invisible. It's deeply unsettling. I agree. So here's how this whole art piece connects to Jason Chen.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
And again, this was never part of the trial, but once I saw it and knowing Jason had several images of it saved in his phone, it was really hard not to compare it with the crime scene photos we saw.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
I know. So whether it was conscious or not, it's something I've not been able to stop thinking about, like the positioning, the stillness, the compression of her body. It mirrored the art piece so closely and seeing it just still makes my stomach turn.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Exactly. And I don't think it's about proving a motive. It's more like understanding that there may have been like layers and layers to this case that just went unseen in the court like this. Yeah, exactly. And OK, so now that leads us to a few more loose threads that we haven't been able to let go of. These also didn't make it into the trial, but they did stick with us.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
They were the ones who brought this case to trial, who carried Jazzy's story into that courtroom, and who fought for justice on behalf of her family. We had a chance to talk with them about the trial, about their reflections, and about some of the unanswered questions we've been wrestling with, too.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
And one of the first things that we talked with them about was the fact that as jurors, we were allowed to ask questions. This is something that a lot of people were surprised by when they heard about it on the podcast.
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BONUS EPISODE: Behind the Mic and Beyond the Verdict
Yeah, I actually loved it. And later I learned that it's actually pretty rare. It's allowed in the state of Tennessee. I guess it just depends on the judge. So here's what DA's Womp and Moyle had to say about it.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Before we begin, please be advised that this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence as presented during the trial. Please take care while listening. It's Saturday, January 18th, 2025, day six of the trial. By now, we were no longer the fresh, wide-eyed jurors who had entered the courtroom on day one. The gravity of this case had settled in.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Travis immediately stepped out of the apartment and called 911. At this point, Mr. Weiss asked Travis Pace if he would recognize himself on a 911 recording. The state objected wildly, and the jury was asked to leave the courtroom. While we were out, they played the 911 tape for Travis Pace, but Judge Patterson ultimately overruled the option to play it in court, so we never heard it.
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Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is Episode 7, The State Rests. As the courtroom took their seats, Judge Patterson turned to the prosecution and asked if they had any more witnesses.
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All we know is that Travis told the 911 operator exactly where they were and that Jasmine had been missing since Wednesday. Here is Travis Pace talking about his interaction with the officers on scene.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
As soon as the officers left, Travis went back into Jason Chen's apartment. He spent the next hour searching, looking for any clue that might lead him to Jasmine. Sitting in that jury box, what stood out to me was how clear it was that Travis wasn't thinking about evidence, chain of custody, or crime scene protocols that night.
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He was thinking like a dad, desperate to find his daughter, and doing anything he could to I couldn't quite figure out the defense's angle in calling Travis to the stand. So far, everything he testified to only seemed to strengthen the case against Jason Chen. Defense attorney Weiss takes a sharp turn after this.
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He focuses on the small discrepancies between Travis Pace's and Katrina Bean's testimony on the night they all went to the Tremont Apartments looking for Jasmine. I'm assuming this was to put doubt in our minds that their stories didn't totally line up, but it seemed like such a small detail.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
If you remember, on day one of the trial, Katrina Bean testified that they used a credit card to break into Jason Chen's apartment. I remember thinking, did it really matter how they got in at this point? Both had already admitted to breaking in. When asked about the discrepancy, Travis remained calm, and his response was simple. We remember it differently now. You can hear their exchange here.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
DA Cody Womp stood and, to our surprise, simply said, the state rests their case. Just like that, the prosecution was done. A brief explanation followed from the bench. Now it was the defense's turn. But before we even had a chance to absorb the shift, we were asked to exit the courtroom. The judge and attorneys needed to cover a few motions before the defense could begin.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
After that frantic night of searching, Travis and Jasmine's family were left with fear and unanswered questions. The next clue didn't come from the apartment. It came from Jasmine's own Facebook account. At some point on Saturday, November 26th, a photo was posted to her Facebook page. It was a picture of Jasmine, but immediately her family and friends knew something was wrong.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
After some back and forth with the judge, the Facebook photo they're talking about was finally displayed on the screen. The courtroom was now presented with an image of Jasmine standing in front of a mirror taking a photo of herself with her phone. She was wearing black lace lingerie. And as her father later described, it was not a photo Jasmine would have ever chosen to share publicly.
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Below the image was a caption that read, enjoying Thanksgiving with my baby. But Jasmine hadn't been with anyone for Thanksgiving, and the words didn't sound like her at all. Then came the most chilling realization. This wasn't even a recent photo of Jasmine.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Her arms and body were missing the tattoos her family and friends knew well, marks that should have been there if this was a recent photo of her. Jasmine hadn't posted this. Jason had. It felt fake, forced, as if someone was trying to make it look like she was alive and well, when her family already knew she wasn't. As Travis put it, this was the match that lit this whole thing on fire.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
In other words, this was the moment when everything shifted for the family. Jasmine wasn't just missing. Someone was actively manipulating the narrative, rewriting her story in real time.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
We returned to our coffee, card games, and books in the jury room. Meanwhile, in the courtroom, the defense did something pretty standard in criminal trials. They filed what's called a motion for judgment of acquittal. This is a formal request for the judge to dismiss some or all of the charges, arguing that the prosecution didn't present enough evidence for a reasonable jury to convict.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
As we sat there listening to Travis walk through how the family pieced all of this together, how they knew without a doubt that Jasmine would never post something like that. It was one of the clearest windows we got into who Jason Chen really was. This wasn't just about hiding evidence. This was about control.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Even after Jasmine was gone, Jason was still trying to control the narrative and manipulate how the world saw her. Once Travis finished his testimony, Judge Patterson let the jury ask questions. This was the part where we could write down anything we still wanted to know.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
The judge and attorneys would review the questions, and if they were appropriate, he would ask them directly to the witness right there in open court. There was something incredibly human about this part of the process. It wasn't lawyers trying to make a point.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
It was us, regular people, a jury of peers, trying to understand what really happened that night and trying to make sense of the choices Travis and the rest of Jasmine's family made in those desperate hours. The first question was simple. How well did Travis even know Jason? Did he know they were dating? Had Jasmine ever mentioned him directly?
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Travis admitted that Jasmine had never brought Jason up to him. But she had talked about him to other people she trusted. And Travis knew they'd been close enough to take a trip to Chicago together recently.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Another juror wanted to understand exactly how they got into Jason's apartment. Travis explained that he forced the handle, physically breaking the mechanism to get the door open. Once inside, he unlocked it so that they can come in and out freely. And then came my question, the dumpster. Did anyone in your party check it that night? And if so, what did they find?
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Episode 07: The State Rests
It's a way of saying, even if you take everything the state just presented at face value, it's still not enough to legally support these charges. Now, this motion is rarely granted in high-profile cases like this, especially in a murder trial, but it's a critical procedural step because it preserves the defense's ability to appeal later on if needed.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
This wasn't a forensic team with gloves and evidence bags. These were parents, terrified and exhausted, looking for anything that could be a clue. Another question from the jury to Travis Pace was if he smelled marijuana in Jason Chen's apartment that night. Travis said that he didn't smell anything, but he remembered a bong sitting on the computer stand with a baggie beside it.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
And even though Travis wasn't sure that was relevant to Jasmine's disappearance, he pointed it out to the police anyway. Finally, we asked Travis what the bed looked like when he first walked in. He said it was messy, unmade, with pillows and blankets rumpled, and some clothing thrown on top. Nothing dramatic, but it painted a picture of an apartment where something had happened in a hurry.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
The next witness was Johnny Lawrence, a private investigator and crime scene expert from right here in Nashville, Tennessee. His specialty? Crime scene reconstruction and bloodstain analysis. His job was to examine the evidence, document it, analyze it, and piece together the order of events based on what the scene itself revealed. A little side note here.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Johnny Lawrence was kind of all over the place. He was presented as the defense's expert witness. But unlike the state's experts, his credibility wasn't immediately accepted. The prosecution and defense argued back and forth in front of us about whether Lawrence's opinions should even be allowed as expert testimony.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
That's because, under Tennessee law, for someone to testify as an expert, their opinions have to substantially assist the jury in understanding the evidence. It took at least 30 minutes for Judge Patterson to decide whether he could even be entered as an expert witness. At one point, we were asked to leave the room while they debated it. Here's a clip of Weiss arguing for him to be entered.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
And in this case, the defense also made a separate request for the judge to allow the jury to consider what's called lesser included offenses. Lesser included offenses are exactly what they sound like. They're charges that are still illegal, but they're considered less severe versions of the primary charge.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
When we returned to the courtroom, Johnny Lawrence was still on the stand. Judge Patterson ruled that we would hear his testimony, but he made it clear. It was just one expert's opinion, not fact. Lawrence was sworn in and we were ready to hear what he had to say. Unlike the state's experts, Lawrence wasn't involved from the start.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
He was hired by the defense in early December 2022, weeks after the initial investigation. That meant he wasn't present for either of the two searches of Apartment 210. Instead, he relied on reviewing law enforcement's photographs and visiting the scene himself on December 9th. He described walking into the apartment, noting how the main room was dark, illuminated by an eerie blue-tinted light.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
He took his own photos, conducted his own tests, and quickly formed his opinion. This crime scene had been contaminated. I'm going to be honest. Lawrence's testimony was a bit painful to sit through. He struggled to clarify whether his statements were conclusions, theories, or just opinions. At one point, Judge Patterson had to step in.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Despite the confusion, Mr. Lawrence pressed on. He detailed his examination of Jason Chen's apartment, describing blood stains, transfer stains, and impact stains that suggested potential contamination. Using digital crime scene photos, he enhanced images to reveal new details, including what he believed to be a blood transfer stain on a maroon sheet possibly from Jasmine Pace's hand.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
But discrepancies started to emerge. Lawrence pointed out differences between police body cam footage and the crime scene photos later taken, indicating that items had been moved after officers arrived. He also highlighted the challenges of interpreting blood spatter patterns.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
noting that contamination could have come from multiple sources, Jason Chen, law enforcement, or even the initial investigation itself. To his credit, Lawrence never claimed to have all the answers. He didn't say, In fact, he repeatedly emphasized that he couldn't reach any absolute conclusions beyond a reasonable doubt. which, ironically, is the state's job.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
In this case, the primary charge was first-degree murder, which requires proving premeditation, meaning the killing was planned. The defense asked the court to also instruct the jury on lesser charges, like second-degree murder, which doesn't require premeditation, or voluntary manslaughter, which could apply if the killing happened in the heat of the moment.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Judge Patterson even reminded him of that. Still, while Lawrence couldn't offer definitive answers, he did form theories, educated guesses based on the patterns and traces left behind. One of those theories? Blood wasn't just present in one area. It had been moved, tracked, and smeared across different parts of the apartment. suggesting that after Jasmine was injured, there was movement.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
For us as jurors, this put us in a strange position. On one hand, we had an expert telling us that gaps existed in the investigation, that key evidence may have been missed. But on the other hand, even he admitted that he couldn't say with certainty what happened in that apartment. And that left us with more questions than answers.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Here's Latricia Thomas from News Channel 9 sharing a wrap up of day six in the courtroom.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
This kind of legal maneuvering is common, but it's also strategic. It gives the jury more options. So instead of choosing between convicting on the most serious charge or letting the defendant go free, they could land somewhere in the middle. It's one of those moments where you could feel both sides preparing for the end game.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Day six of the trial gave us more than just testimony. It gave us a timeline of desperation. We heard from Jasmine's father, Travis Pace, who physically forced his way into Jason Chen's apartment, driven not by protocol, but by panic. He wasn't looking for evidence. He was looking for his daughter.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
We heard from Courtney, the downstairs neighbor, who unknowingly became the ear witness to Jasmine's final moments, hearing a scream, the chase, and sobs that would later haunt us all. And we heard from Johnny Lawrence, a private investigator who was brought in too late. His job was to reconstruct a crime scene that had already been trampled through.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
By family, by law enforcement, and by Jason himself. What Lawrence gave us wasn't certainty. It was a list of what-ifs. And that was the defense's entire case. Three witnesses. None of them did much to help their argument, and then just like that, they were done.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
After all the buildup, all the motions, and all the attempts to poke holes in the state's case, the defense rested, with Johnny Lawrence as their final witness. No bombshell revelations, no airtight alibis, just speculation, discrepancies, and a forensic expert who wasn't even there when the evidence was collected. For a case of this magnitude, it felt underwhelming. Next time on Sequestered.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
And with each passing day, the weight of our role grew heavier. We had listened to hours of testimony, examined evidence, and watched the state methodically build their case against Jason Chen. We'd seen Jasmine's family take the stand, heard the pain in their voices as they recounted the frantic hours they spent searching for her.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
As the trial nears its end, the prosecution and defense make their final gripping arguments. Was Jason Chen's crime a calculated act of murder or a moment of uncontrolled passion? That's next on Episode 8. Thank you for listening to Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
The defense protecting their client from the harshest sentence possible and the state holding firm that this was a premeditated intentional murder. The defense had one more move up their sleeve. Mr. Weiss renewed a motion he'd already tried once before. He asked the judge to allow a forensic psychologist named Dr. Douglas Lewis to testify for the defense.
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Episode 07: The State Rests
Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved and the weight of seeking justice. If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us. Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
News clips featured in this episode were sourced from WTBC News Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga, and the Law and Crime Network. Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
Now, this wasn't just a random request, because earlier in the trial, the state's expert, medical examiner Dr. Stephen Cogswell, actually said that the best kind of expert to speak to Jason Chen's state of mind would be a forensic psychologist. That's exactly who Dr. Lewis was, and the defense wanted to bring him in to testify about Jason's ability or inability to form premeditation.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
This is important because premeditation is what separates first-degree murder from the other lesser charges I mentioned. If Jason didn't have the mental capacity to form premeditation, the jury could consider a lesser offense like second-degree murder or even manslaughter. For a second time, Judge Patterson denied the request, and the reasoning was layered.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
First, Judge Patterson said Dr. Lewis's opinions were too speculative, meaning they didn't meet the legal standard of certainty needed for expert testimony. Basically, his opinion didn't cross that line from this could be possible to this is what happened to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
Also, because the defense had waited until after the trial started to formally request Dr. Lewis's testimony, Judge Patterson ruled it would be unfair to the state to allow it at this point in the trial. So the motion was denied again. The defense took a break here to organize their witnesses. And about 30 minutes later, we entered the courtroom and took our seats in the jury box.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
The defense calls their first witness to the stand, Courtney Paglino Brewer. Courtney was the neighbor who lived in apartment 110, the unit directly below Jason Chen's apartment. Let's listen in to defense attorney Weiss asking Courtney about the night Jasmine Pace went missing.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
We had listened to expert witnesses break down crime scene details, some with precise conclusions, others with more uncertainty. We had watched DA Cody Womp and her team present their evidence with confidence, reinforcing over and over again that this was a premeditated act, not a crime of passion, not an accident, but a murder. The days of feeling like outsiders in the courtroom were over.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
Courtney testified that in the early hours of November 23rd, the night Jasmine was murdered, she was jolted awake by a loud, panicked scream. It startled her so much, she immediately grabbed her phone to check the time, thinking she might need to call 911. According to her, it was 2.11 a.m. It was the voice that stuck with her.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
The scream she heard came from a woman, and after that initial burst of terror, Courtney could hear her trying to talk through sobs like she was crying and arguing at the same time. The words were garbled, and Courtney couldn't make out exactly what was being said.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
Then came what she described as chasing, the sounds of two people running from the floor directly above her toward the front door of the apartment, followed by the distinct sound of the front door slamming. 20 minutes later, Courtney heard the TV in the bedroom turn on loudly.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
And about 30 minutes after that, she hears the garbage disposal turn on and then the washing machine, which she described were both running at the same time. It wasn't until days later when Courtney saw Jasmine's missing person flyer on Facebook that she realized what she had actually heard.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
According to the flyer, Jasmine's last known location was at 110 Tremont Street, apartment 210, the apartment directly above hers. That's when Courtney knew she had to say something. She immediately submitted a tip to Crimestoppers, sharing everything she remembered from that night. As I sat there listening to Courtney, my mind couldn't stop racing with questions.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
Questions, of course, that no one could fully answer. Was the TV turned up to cover the sound of something no one was supposed to hear? What was Jason washing in the middle of the night? Sheets? Clothes? Something worse? And the garbage disposal? What did he put down there? Was it something small? Or was it evidence of something that could never be recovered? None of us knew for sure.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
But what haunted me the most was the realization that Jason wasn't just up late tidying his apartment. He wasn't cleaning the house. He was covering up a crime scene right above Courtney's head. Thank you so much for having me. so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
At this point, we weren't just observing the trial. We were part of it. This didn't feel new anymore. We were here to finish what we started. And apparently, so was the state. This is Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
The next witness was Jasmine's biological father, Travis Pace. Something to be aware of is that Travis and Jasmine's mom, now Katrina Bean, are divorced. With Mr. Weiss's leading, Travis took us through the night Jasmine's family realized she was missing. November 26th into the early morning hours of the 27th.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
On the 26th, Travis was out to dinner with friends celebrating Thanksgiving when his daughter Gabby called in a panic. Jasmine wasn't answering her phone and no one knew where she was. Travis and his girlfriend drove to the last location Jasmine's phone had pinged, a building near Tremont Street.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
When they got there, they found Gabby and some of Jasmine's friends, all trying to figure out how to get inside. They managed to get into the building through a back door and started knocking, loudly, on every door they could. They were desperate to make noise, to wake people up, and to find someone who had seen Jasmine. and that's when they learned about Jason Chen.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
A neighbor told them Jason lived on the second floor and that Jasmine had been there recently. That's all they needed to hear. Travis went straight to Jason's apartment and knocked. There was no answer. The door was locked, but Travis managed to force the handle open. What he found inside made his stomach drop. The apartment was empty, but it was clear someone had left in a hurry.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 07: The State Rests
The bed was unmade and there were female items in the bathroom. When Travis opened a desk drawer, there was Jasmine's driver's license and credit cards just sitting there in a neat little stack. That's the moment he knew something was terribly wrong.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Hey everyone, it's Sarah and Andrea here, and welcome to this special bonus episode of Sequestered. So here we are. Here we are.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
No, that was, I mean, I obviously went into detail about this on the podcast, but that was one of the harder moments for me is, you know, having both of his parents, but especially his mom up there. I had seen her throughout the entire trial, like from even day one of jury selection in the back of the room, in the seat behind me. And I didn't know who she was.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
I kind of had an idea, but as the trial went on, She was a very familiar person in the room. I would see her crying often and just receiving this information. And it wasn't until she took the stand that I realized she not only was this the first time she was able to convey to everyone through a translator.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Her thoughts and emotions, but like it also helped help me see like, oh, my gosh, like she's not been able to understand the majority of what's going on here. She's just here watching, you know, seeing images and watching body language, you know, and then being told. By whomever, maybe her other son or whoever can, you know, she's getting bits and pieces.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And anyway, it was just, it was heartbreaking seeing her up there. She's not responsible for her son's, you know, actions. And of course she wants him home. It's her kid. But also there is not one thing she could have said that could have changed what her son did. And that was why we were there.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Right, and side note, the keys were actually attached to them when she was found, which is crazy. So anyway, I think we have a clip here that we could play where Cogswell explains that more.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah. I mean, obviously I couldn't know. Um, we do know there's no document in history of abuse or like domestic violence or, you know, he didn't have any strong outbursts in court or, you know, there's not even like run-ins with the law, you know? So we really don't know for sure what sparked this. Who knows what was going on internally in his mind?
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Obviously, we know from former co-workers, friends, classmates, they've said he can be manipulative. There's that identity theft stuff. But it's like... that doesn't equate to brutally murdering someone. So who could know, but we have heard, you know, a number of people say essentially like you caught someone that was like a serial killer in the making, like this could have gone far.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And, and they have even questioned like, was this his first, you know, who knows? Who knows? Yeah. We won't know until we do. Yeah, that's right.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Man, I mean, again, hard to say. I know that was a big I was a strong point and maybe a big pointed finger from the defense at the beginning of the trial and kind of thread throughout. Maybe even more so was that the family was in and out of his apartment. But there was a lot of direct points about the police not acting quickly or quick enough at the beginning.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And I would say even the prosecutors agreed. Yeah. That it was not acted quick enough or quick. They could have been quicker, you know, and those are my words. But once they were engaged, it was all hands on deck, you know.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Me too. I remember that actually when it unfolded, during the trial and being surprised like when I guess it was Crawford who was talking about how they went back the second time when when the apartment complex like management contacted him and was like, hey, we're doing these renovations. We found this giant stain. Like, how did they miss that? I remember being like, what in the world? But
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
I mean, I don't know. I guess if you are doing a thorough search, you are moving furniture, but maybe not like that.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
All that to say, it further proved Jasmine had been there. That was her blood. And I think it further tells the story overall.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah. No, I don't, I don't recall any of that. Um, when they were talking about the, the hue of the lights, it made me think of like, knowing that his apartment was kind of like, would have been like in the center of the building and the only outside light would have come from his sliding glass door in his bedroom at the back of his apartment.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
So my guess was he brought some like blue hue colored lights in to make it feel like daylight during the day. Okay. Gotcha. That was was what I thought. But they kept saying it was so dim. It was so dark. And that might just be because there's not enough light in the building to begin with. So I'm not sure. Right.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah. Before we even released the trailer, I did reach out to Katrina Bean on just on Facebook. I sent her a DM and just kind of let her know that I was planning to do this, who I was and that, you know, I had no requests or requirement from her, but that if she had anything to share, she was more than welcome to. But yeah, I just I didn't have any expectations from her or the family.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Um, that being said, we did have a family member, uh, write in a couple of times. So we've had some correspondence with, um, someone close to the family and that's been awesome.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Oh yeah, we definitely are. Uh, she's just a great person too. She's been so kind to, to stay connected with us. And, um, I mean, It's not every day a juror wants to continue learning and talking about the case that they were on, you know? Yeah. So I think that's, I would imagine that's probably unique for her. And I'm super inspired by her. I think she's got...
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
incredibly passionate outlook on life and her values for justice are among the highest I've ever I've ever seen in someone. It's amazing. It's very inspiring.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
OK, great question. It's funny because that phone call is like the one like touch point back to normal life that everyone had to look forward to each day. And yet it was usually the very last thing before you go to sleep. So you kind of just like, man, I just want to go to bed. But you can't wait for that five minute phone call. Yeah. And and. It happened in random order every night.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
So again, there were 16 of us. We each got five minutes, but it wasn't like they just started with A. They might've started with the lowest room number or the highest room number, or they started with Z and worked backwards. And so every night was different. You never knew when your call was coming. Sometimes they did the
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
people with kids first so that they could get that call in first so they could talk to their little ones. And then, you know, and so some people weren't getting their phone call until 1030, almost 11 at night. And their person on the other end are waiting up to hoping to hear. And so you get a knock on your door. We're not allowed to leave our hotel room at all.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Like if you do, there are cops on duty right there at the elevator. Um, And so you get a knock on your door and you exit, walk the hallway with them. And you stand outside of the officer's door whose room has all of the phones in it. And so you're kind of like on deck. The other person that's in there finishing up their call, the door is kind of cracked.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And as you walk in and there's a desk in the room and there's 16 phones on the desk, all turned upside down with like a rubber band around it and a sticky note on top with each of our names on it. So they know whose phone is what. And so my phone is there, says my name. It's turned on, but upside down, like face, you know, face down.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And because as soon as it turns on, all these notifications are popping up and I'm not allowed to look at them. So they tell me every single time you have five minutes, you know, you can turn it over.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Don't look at any of the notifications, dial your phone number, keep it on speakerphone and then turn it face down while you're talking so that I'm not looking at notifications as they're coming in while I'm talking. Oh, wow. And you have to keep it on speakerphone the whole time. So he'll start the clock five minutes and we're not allowed to talk about the case.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
We're not allowed to ask any questions pertaining to the case or share anything about my day at all. The person that I'm talking to could say, you know, how are you? Are you feeling OK? Is there any you know? But it's like you have five minutes. How quickly can you get into something like that? Usually it's a, it was good. You know, we were in court most of the day. Here's where we ate for lunch.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
This is where we went for dinner. Yeah, that's it. That's it. How are the animals? What's going on at home? Anything crazy? You know, and remember during this week, it's like the inauguration was happening. Trump was being inaugurated. Yeah. TikTok went down. California was on fire. There was so much happening in our external world that we just were totally closed off to.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
The only thing we had access to was the Weather Channel in the morning during breakfast.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
On day one. And it would have been about halfway through day one because the jury pool was so big, 118 people, I believe. They took the first half of the group up and kind of got the process going in the courtroom. And then just before lunchtime, they brought the rest of us in and we all ended up sitting in the gallery.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And so it was like once once our half of the group was was brought into the courtroom, we were made aware that. Very basic details of the case, not enough to know much of anything. We knew it was a murder trial. We had very vague details about what the defendant was accused of.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yes, we knew his name and we knew the victim's name. We knew that this happened in Chattanooga and that it would be a sequestered jury. And then it was just like, mom's the word. You're not allowed to look it up. You're not allowed to ask about it. Nothing. And then from there on, it was like, first off, has anyone heard of this? If any hands went up, those people were excused.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And then from then on, every single day until the end of the trial, we were asked at least twice a day, have we heard about it? Have we been exposed? So it was very serious.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
I can see how that would be a question. I can't. I try to put myself in their shoes and see from their perspective. Like the whole reason I told this story was to share my perspective. And let me say this. Anyone can tell this story. The whole thing was put on court TV. There are and will be plenty of people who will share this story. my goal was not to go share a murder story.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
I wanted to share the story of Jasmine Pace's life and death from a perspective of someone that heard it unravel in a courtroom each day of the trial. And I just thought that was a unique perspective. The other thing is, it was my way of processing it. You know, I've never done anything like this before. I've And so it was just a, it was a good process for me.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
It was something to put out there and just like anyone else's, you know, art, there's always going to be opinions and, you know,
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah. It's my story. My story telling someone else's story. So it's a weird one. I know. I get it. Here's the other thing. I can work on my delivery, but Lord knows I cannot change how I sound. And here's the other thing. I have also said enough times on my own on podcasts and songs and whatever. Oh, I can't stand their voice. Oh, if you could just do that. So you're not alone. I've said it too.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And you know, if I'm not for you, that's cool.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
That's true. I mean... Oh yeah. To that point. I've never made a podcast like this and I don't know if those people have either. So if they want to go out there and try it, give it a shot, man, give it a shot. And, um, I'd love to hear it. It'd be great.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah. And I mean, and we tried to put it out quick so that it was fresh and processed what I had just gone through. And I don't know, I had the tools to do it. And so I thought, what the heck? And you know what? Yeah, let's keep doing it. Let's keep telling more stories.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah, great. We've obviously asked ourselves this. I probably will never, ever be sequestered on a jury again in my life. But the word sequestered and the meaning of being sequestered can cover a lot of ground. And there are so many people out there whose stories... need to continue to be told and retold the victims' names who need to be heard, people who are still missing.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And yeah, so we want to share more about that. We already have plans for season two. We want to continue advocating for these victims. And this victim-centric storytelling is important. I really enjoy that angle.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah, absolutely. So first off, thank you to everyone who's listened. It truly means so much. And thank you to everyone who sent in questions like just going beyond listening. You've taken the other step to like look up an email and go write one. That really means a lot to us. And we've tried to respond to all of them. If we haven't yet, we're getting to it.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Thank you for sharing the podcast with your friends and just honestly for holding space for Jasmine and her story.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And we'll be back soon with season two. Until then, keep sending us your questions. And thank you so much for being a part of this with us.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
The other thing I was going to say is he talked a lot about how, where specifically where the shackle was connected to just below her elbow, that there was like rust stains. And we saw, we, the jury and just people in the room actually saw photo evidence of this, where the shackle around her forearm had rusted, you know, and she had rust marks on her skin.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Right. Yeah. I mean, I think we've probably replied to over 30 emails about this.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And so, I mean, that's just another sign of them being just such cheap, you know, material.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Right. Well, first off, I will say this was covered in the trial. What we know for sure is that there's no evidence of when or where
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
One more note back on this, her being in the fetal position as it relates to where her wounds were all related on one portion of her body, it proves that she was already in the fetal position during her attack, which then shows that she was very likely already shackled and cuffed.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Because the defense's argument is that those cuffs and shackles were placed after the fact in order to fit her into the bags and therefore the suitcase. Right.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Oh, yeah. And, you know, you didn't see the images, the photos. Only the people in the courtroom did. And I keep rubbing my wrist while I'm talking because the defensive wounds on... on her left, the inside of her left wrist and all the way up into her hand through her left hand. Um, it was so bad. It was, I mean, they were just so clearly defense.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
She was trying to shield her face with her one free arm.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
I am not positive. I remember seeing this question and kind of doing a little research. I don't think he was.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
he purchased the handcuffs or shackles so they don't have a receipt or a timeline or anything like that only what dr cogswell's description was which is that they were cheap like kind of aluminum cuffs and shackles something he said something that you would find at like a spencer's or some sort of like novelty store so he could have bought these at any point you could probably get them on amazon
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah, we don't have confirmation about whether a plea deal was formally offered, but based on what was said in court and reported publicly, it seems the case went straight to trial without one. So Chen didn't enter a guilty plea or accept responsibility in any way before the trial. So the prosecution moved forward with a first degree murder charge seeking life without parole.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
I mean, from the start, all I can say is, you know, only he knows the motive and the reason and the details of that night. And we may never know that unless he decides to speak about it one day.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Yeah. And we heard about this from DA's Wump and Moyle, but just kind of learning more about his character because they didn't really share it. There weren't character witnesses. There wasn't much information. At all about his character throughout the trial. So much of this I've learned after the fact, whether by people writing in or people we've come come in contact with just after the fact.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And, you know, one of them was this this former roommate of his, a recent former roommate of his that they lived with each other during college. And, you know, they were seemingly friends, but then it just became this very manipulative relationship.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
relationship somehow at where Jason started hacking into this roommate's Facebook account and posting just really incriminating stuff, you know, kind of on his behalf and, you know, got him fired. And it was basically identity theft. Yeah.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
Right. Just and honestly, like we've heard so many stories about Jason's past, including stories of manipulation like this one, identity theft and toxic behavior from former co-workers, friends. Yeah, it's just. Yeah. If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you. Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, sequesteredpod.com.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
We've added exclusive blogs for every episode, packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights, and key moments from the trial. Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial. so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
I guess what's so interesting about that is, zooming out real quick, I'd never been... on a jury before, I've never been a part of a courtroom proceeding. So not only was all of that new, just the process and the verbiage, and we were getting the hang of it over the course of the week, but by the time the state closed their case, we were still waiting for, okay, now it's the defense's turn.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
You've got to remain open the entire time going, okay, I'm collecting all of the facts that the state has the burden of proof. So we're going to collect all of their facts. And then now it's the defense's turn. And so I feel like I was waiting the whole week for, okay, now what do you guys have to say? And, you know, they had the three witnesses.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
And in my opinion, all three of those witnesses only bolstered the state's case. Right. And I could see why they called each one of those witnesses, but it didn't help them in my opinion. And so... I think some character witnesses could have helped. I know one of the other jurors really wanted to hear from a psychologist. And we know that there was one that had been attempted to be called.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
BONUS Q&A EPISODE: Your Questions, Answered
But essentially, he was called too late and wasn't allowed in, as we discussed. So it's just interesting. But now knowing that, I don't know what would have helped. Yeah.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Before we begin, please be advised that this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence as presented during the trial. Please take care while listening. It's Friday, January 17, 2025, Day 5 of the trial. If you've been following along, you know that Day 4 of the trial was brutal.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
And then we see it. The footage we've now seen so many times, it's burned into memory. At 5.59pm, Jason Chen is seen exiting the front entrance of the lofts at Tremont, pulling a heavy suitcase up a handful of steps, then rolling it down the sidewalk before he disappears out of frame and into the parking lot. I want to pause here for a minute to talk about this surveillance footage.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
The video comes from the Arctic Cam mounted at the corner of Tremont and Fraser. It's angled straight down Tremont Street, with the lofts at Tremont visible on the right-hand side. The front entrance to the apartment complex sits slightly below sidewalk level, with a short set of steps leading down to the door.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
In the footage, you see a figure at the base of those steps, struggling to make his way up. We immediately recognize him. By now, the state has done a meticulous job painting out the identifiers. His anything-goes trucker hat, his clothes, his movements. As Chen reaches the top step, you can see he's dragging something behind him. And then the suitcase comes into view.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
When the suitcase hits the sidewalk, there's this moment. Chen's arm drops under the weight of it. He readjusts, finds his grip, and starts pulling it towards the camera's view before disappearing into the parking lot. That suitcase wasn't empty. If you've ever traveled, you know most airlines cap-checked bags at 50 pounds. Now imagine doubling that.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
That's what Jason was hauling up those stairs and down Tremont Street. After the trial, my producer and I made the trip to Chattanooga, and 110 Tremont was the first place we visited. Seeing it in person, this building that had become a central character in Jasmine's story, was surreal. When we were pulling out of the back parking lot by the dumpsters, I saw those steps and the sidewalk.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
The exact spot where Jason pulled that suitcase. Here's a clip from that day. describe how you feel seeing it in person yeah this is pretty surreal my heart is beating being here just um seeing the the sidewalk that he walked the steps that that suitcase got pulled up and um
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
seeing the footage of like his arm drop when, uh, when the weight of that bag, um, got rolling, you could just tell it was so heavy, even though we know she was only 98 pounds. Like most suitcases are like 50 pounds. So that was twice as heavy as like the average suitcase you would travel with at an airport. And, um, anyway, it's just pretty crazy to be seeing the
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Sidewalk, where we saw the footage of him rolling her out of the Tremont Apartments. After Jason rolls the suitcase into the parking lot, the Arctic Cam captures the next piece of the puzzle. A 2018 gray Toyota Camry pulls out of the lot. Behind the wheel, Jason Chen. The camera shows him turning right onto Fraser Avenue, leaving the lofts at Tremont behind.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Minutes later, at 6.13 p.m., cell phone records confirm exactly where he's headed, Suck Creek Road. He waited until it was dark enough, then pulled off onto the gravel turnout. He popped the trunk, dragged the 100-pound suitcase out, then pulled it to the edge of the riverbank, shoving it as deep as he could into the dried kudzu brush, forcing it out of sight. 20 minutes later, at 6.33 p.m.,
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Jason Chen leaves Suck Creek Road and the body of Jasmine Pace and drives back to the Walmart he visited earlier that day. He arrives in the Walmart parking lot and at 6.49 p.m. Jasmine's phone goes dark. That's the last time her phone ever sends out a signal. We know Jason kept her SIM card, but just to be clear, Jasmine's actual phone has never been found.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Not in his apartment, not in his car, not anywhere. As if the device that once held her messages, her photos, her entire digital life, simply vanished. The courtroom audio from this part of the trial is hard to make out, but the message is crystal clear. This is where Jasmine's digital trail ends.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is episode six, The Evidence Tells the Story. Before we get into today's testimony, I wanted to explain why I keep calling the district attorneys general.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
At 7 p.m., Jason Chen walks into the Walgreens on Market Street in Chattanooga. Footage from the store and his cell phone records confirm it. What I know now, especially after visiting these locations myself, is that this Walgreens sits directly along the route back to Jason's apartment from Suck Creek Road, where Jasmine's body had already been left behind.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
After a quick stop in the Walmart parking lot to handle the final details of her never-to-be-seen-again phone, Jason makes one more stop at this Walgreens on Market Street before returning to his apartment just a few blocks away. But he doesn't stay home for long. A little after 8 p.m., a neighbor's ring cam catches him slipping out the side door of the building.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
He's still wearing the Anything Goes hat, but this time he's added a blue face mask and pulled up the hood of his gray sweatshirt. Moments later, the Arctic Cam captures a masked figure wearing a red and white trucker hat and a hooded gray sweatshirt pulling out of the apartments in a white Chevy Equinox and turning right onto Fraser Avenue. That's Jasmine's car. And Jason is driving it.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
But he's not out to run errands. No, he's driving to 900 Mountain Creek Road, where he'll abandon the vehicle. The same place Jasmine's family will find it just three days later, desperate for answers.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Remember the MyChevy app, the one Jasmine's mom used to locate her car on the night of November 26th? That app captured the final trip that Jasmine's car ever took. starting at 8.27 p.m. when Jason pulls out of his apartment complex at 110 Tremont Street and ending just 18 minutes later at 8.45 p.m.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
when he parks it for the last time, abandoning the vehicle in a dark back parking lot at 900 Mountain Creek Road. Now let's listen in as General Cody Watt walks the jury through the surveillance footage.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Remember the Prius captured on the surveillance video at 900 Mountain Creek Road? The one that pulls into the same parking lot Jason did after abandoning Jasmine's car? That Prius was Jason's Lyft ride, the same driver who would later drop him off back at his apartment.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Detective Hamilton walks the jury through data extracted from Jason's phone, showing that the Lyft app was accessed at 8.39 p.m., just minutes after Jason left the Equinox. A notification then comes through at 8.50 p.m., likely telling him his ride was arriving. Jason's cell phone data still places him at 900 Mountain Creek Road at this time.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
By 9.02 p.m., Jason Chen and his phone are delivered to 110 Tremont Street. Hamilton confirms via cell phone data while DA Womp queues up the Arctic footage capturing Jason exiting the lift outside of his apartment building. Let's listen in as she presents the moment Jason steps out of that lift.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
A quick side note here. Both the Lyft app and the Tinder app had been deleted from Jason's phone before investigators got their hands on it. But thanks to the forensic data extraction, Hamilton was still able to recover key information from both of the apps. Not long after Jason returns home that night, he makes a move that's both calculated and revealing. But why? We may never know.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
What we do know is this. Jason inserts his own SIM card into Jasmine's phone, activating it with his personal data and tying himself directly to her device. If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you. Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, sequesteredpod.com.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
If you're not from Tennessee, it probably sounds a little strange. But here's the deal. In Tennessee, state prosecutors are officially titled district attorney general. That's why you'll hear me say General Womp or General Moyle throughout the podcast.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
We've added exclusive blogs for every episode packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights and key moments from the trial. Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial. so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
All right, let's step back through the timeline real quick. After Jason drops Jasmine's car off at Mountain Creek Road, he takes a lift home, arriving back at his apartment at exactly 9.02 p.m. on November 23rd. From this time on November 23rd until midday on November 25th, Jason Chen does not leave his apartment. Was this when he was cleaning?
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Rearranging the furniture to cover up what happened inside of his bedroom? Preparing to head home for the holiday as if nothing had happened? By this point, remember, Jason had made three separate trips to Walmart and Walgreens, stocking up on supplies. Jasmine's body and the suitcase were already left behind on Suck Creek Road. And inside his apartment, we know there was blood.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Almost a gallon of it, actually. For context, Thanksgiving Day was on November 24th that year. Jason didn't leave Chattanooga until Friday afternoon, finally getting into his car around 3 p.m. Eastern Time and arriving at his parents' house in Nolensville, Tennessee at 4.50 p.m. Central Time. Two days later, on Sunday, November 27th, Jason Chen returns to the North Shore area of Chattanooga.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
But here's the thing. He never goes back into his apartment. Cell phone records show him stopping just west of Tremont Street near Renaissance Park, a small green space just a few blocks away from the lofts at Tremont where he lived. At this point, General Watt makes an effort to ask Hamilton what time the Chattanooga Police Department secured Chen's apartment on this day.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
It's a tradition that dates back to the earliest days of Tennessee's legal system, meant to emphasize that these attorneys represent the entire state, not just a local district in criminal cases. So next time you hear me say general, think of it as shorthand for that full title, District Attorney General. All right, let's head back to the courtroom.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Hamilton confirms it happened sometime between 10 and 11 p.m. on Sunday, November 27th, after Chen's cell phone data shows he was first seen back in the area. We know from Investigator Crawford's testimony that the search warrant for Jason Chen's apartment was granted at 11.45 p.m. that same night. So what was Jason back in town for?
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Surely by now, Investigator Crawford had already been calling his phone. Was he curious about any activity around his apartment, checking to see if the police were already involved? Or was there something else pulling him back? Then, Hamilton reveals another twist. Jason leaves the North Shore area around 9.30 p.m., heading towards Hickson, a community just north of Chattanooga.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
And according to his phone records, Jason stays in the Hickson area until about 10.15 p.m. before heading back to Nolensville. So what's in Hickson? Jasmine's house. Her family's house. What in the world was Jason doing there? And more importantly, why? Why? Next, the state shifts the jury's attention to Jasmine's phone activity.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
More specifically, her text messages and app usage in the hours after she was last seen alive. What Hamilton uncovers is deeply unsettling. At 4am on the morning of November 23rd, Jasmine's phone received a series of notifications. They were password reset requests for her banking apps. And by 9.52am that same morning, Jason was already back on Tinder, messaging somebody new.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
He sends this message to a person named Victoria.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Victoria responds... Ha, really? Why is that? Jason didn't stop there, though. He also reached out to two other women on Tinder that same morning. I keep thinking about these women, he messaged. As far as they knew, it was just flirty banter on a dating app. I mean, how could they possibly know that the guy messaging them had just murdered his girlfriend?
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Her lifeless body was still laying on the floor of his bedroom. As investigator Hamilton's testimony continues, he shares even more text data recovered from Jason Chen's phone. I was actually glad I could watch this part back because there was just so much information flying at us during this part of the trial. Texts and dates and times and different time zones.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
It was nearly impossible to keep up with in the moment. So it wasn't until re-watching it for this episode that I fully caught on to what DA Womp was getting at with this next group of messages. But before we get there, Hamilton also confirms something that directly contradicts the defense's opening statement.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
He testifies that the Tinder app on Jason's phone was not accessed at all on the day of November 22nd. That's a direct conflict with what the defense had claimed about Jasmine becoming upset after seeing Tinder messages popping up on Jason's phone that night. With Womp's leading, Hamilton then shifts and explains to the jury that we're looking at a text thread from Jason Chen's phone.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
A group chat between Jason and his gamer friends. Around 9.30 p.m. on November 23rd, a handful of texts roll in. The guys are checking in to see who's available and who's getting on to play tonight. Womp points out that all of these texts are being read by Jason as they come in. She continues scrolling down the report, showing more conversation over the next couple of hours.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Judge Patterson opens the morning the way he always does, reminding the jury of our responsibility. No outside research, no talking about the case, no news or social media. By now, this ritual feels familiar, almost automatic. We all nod in agreement. He then lays out our weekend schedule. It was the Friday before a holiday weekend, but no one would get that holiday weekend.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Just before midnight, someone named Mina writes, You guys running more war zone? Then, at 1.06 a.m., now officially Thanksgiving Day, Jason chimes in, I'm getting on in like five. You're getting on in like five?
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
As in, you're calm enough to sit on your couch and play video games with your buddies just seven hours after you dumped your girlfriend's body in a suitcase by the side of the Tennessee River? There's a short mid-morning break at this point, and although I had no idea at the time, the defense used that break to submit a motion, a move that would quietly set the stage for what was coming next.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
A motion is a formal request made to the court asking the judge to rule on a specific issue. In this case, Mr. Weiss filed a motion requesting that the entirety of the text messages between Jasmine Pace and Jason Chen be admitted into evidence.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
With the jury now out of earshot, the courtroom quickly turns into a legal tug-of-war, Weiss arguing for full transparency while Womp raises serious concerns about their relevance. They go back and forth over whether these texts, even the ones from a year before Jasmine's murder, are actually hearsay.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Then DA Wamp plants her feet and calls it out directly, saying, we just received this motion approximately four and a half minutes ago. Judge Patterson appears open to admitting the full 240 pages of texts, but General Watt pushes back hard, arguing that messages from 2021 have nothing to do with the murder of Jasmine Pace. She also makes one thing crystal clear.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
If these pages are to be submitted, any texts that are sexual in nature should be redacted before they're shown to the jury. Here's how that exchange played out right in front of the judge.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Instead, court will be in session the following day, even though it's Saturday. And after a quick vote in the jury room earlier that morning, we all agreed to take Sunday off, but will return to work on Monday, despite it being a national holiday, Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Another round of nods from the jury box are acknowledged, and with that, day five of the trial was underway.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
The footage that follows this exchange is muted, but you don't need sound to pick up on what's happening. Their body language says it all. Tension, frustration, and the two sides digging in. It's clear this was important to both the prosecution and the defense, each for very different reasons. After a tense back and forth, Judge Patterson allows some of the texts in. But only if they're relevant.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
We saw the autopsy photos, heard the forensic details, and imagined the unthinkable as medical examiner Dr. Stephen Cogswell walked us through the condition of Jasmine's body inside that suitcase. I didn't have time to process it in the moment, and I didn't want to think about it after we left the courthouse, alone in my silent hotel room.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
The jury never saw the messages that were sexual in nature. And honestly, we didn't need to. What's interesting is, those 240 pages of text messages were actually the very first thing I reached for when the evidence box was brought into the jury room during our deliberations.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
There was no way I could have read through it all, but I wanted to see for myself if their relationship really looked as lopsided as the defense claimed. From the text I did have time to read, what I saw looked like a pretty normal relationship. When we return from the mid-morning break, Mark Hamilton is still on the stand, this time ready for the defense's cross-examination.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Defense attorney Amanda Morrison approaches the podium. This is the first time I've really mentioned her, so let me paint the picture. Dressed in a solid-colored skirt suit, Amanda Morrison carries herself with a quiet confidence. Her straight reddish-brown hair frames her face, and there's a deliberate calmness in her demeanor. Morrison starts by asking Hamilton to confirm something.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Can he actually prove that Jason Chen went to his apartment when he returned to Chattanooga from Nolensville on November 27th? Hamilton answers carefully. He can place Chen in the area of his apartment based on cell phone data, but he can't say for certain whether or not Jason actually entered his apartment that day.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
To be honest, I wasn't actually sure why this mattered, but the defense made a point to put it on the record. Next, Judge Patterson addressed the jury directly, explaining how we're allowed to consider the text messages that were submitted, essentially saying that the texts are only to be used for the non-hearsay purpose of establishing the length of Jason and Jasmine's relationship.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Morrison dives right in, suggesting that someone could have fabricated the pinned screenshot sent to Jasmine's mom at 2.18 a.m. on November 23rd. She pushes Hamilton, asking if it's possible that someone could have faked that screenshot that Katrina Bean showed of the text message from Jasmine with her location pin. But Hamilton stands firm.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
He says it would be extremely difficult to fabricate because of the sheer amount of detail embedded in the screenshot's metadata. Eventually, Hamilton concedes that in theory, anything is possible. But in his expert opinion, the screenshot is authentic. Before investigator Hamilton stepped down, we had a few questions of our own.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
One of the jurors asked if Jason's SIM card was in his phone when investigators recovered it from his parents' house. Hamilton confirmed that it was, reminding the jury that Jason had moved that same SIM card into Jasmine's phone for a period of time, but that it had been returned to his own phone by the time it was recovered for extraction.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Another juror asked what would happen if text messages were deleted from Jason's phone? Would they still show up in the conversation log? Hamilton explained that depending on the make and model of the phone, the log would be able to tell that a message had been deleted, but that the actual content of those messages would likely not appear.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
As Hamilton's testimony came to a close, investigator Zach Crawford would be called back to the witness stand, serving as the final witness of the day. D.A. Womp recalled him and he was sworn in for a second time. She started by addressing a point the defense had raised earlier, asking Crawford to explain why his own palm and fingerprints were found on the hood of Jason Chen's car.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
The state calls their first witness of the day, Jennifer Moody, a fingerprint technician with the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office. Her testimony is quick and straightforward. She explains to the jury how fingerprints are collected, stored, and compared. It's not flashy, but it's foundational, setting up the state's next witness with finesse.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Crawford admitted that during the search of Jason Chen's parents' house, he accidentally touched the vehicle, explaining that the tight space around the car, packed with his family's belongings, made it difficult to avoid, and he accidentally fell forward, bracing himself on the hood. He was careful to mention that this was the first time his fingerprints had ever shown up on a TBI report.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Before shifting gears, D.A. Watt made sure to tackle one more defense theory head on. The suggestion that the screenshot of the location pin Jasmine sent to her mom was somehow fake.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Next, General Womp shifts her focus, turning the jury's attention to text messages between Jason Chen and Jasmine Pace. Investigator Crawford walks us through their text message history, explaining how their conversation started briefly in November of 2021, then dropped off completely until April of 2022. And here's something interesting.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
When their messages resumed in April of 22, Jason actually reminded Jasmine that they had originally matched on Bumble the year before, not Tinder. Another direct contradiction from what the defense claimed in their opening statement, that the two of them had met on Tinder.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
From there, Crawford explains their messages show no arguments or signs of conflict, just casual conversations as they started seeing each other more regularly. Jason frequently asked Jasmine to come over, and their relationship seemed to progress naturally. By late October of 2022, Jason had even invited Jasmine to go to Chicago with him, a trip they eventually took together.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
As Womp and Crawford take the jury through these text messages, we begin to see how their relationship evolved, from casual conversation to planning trips together. I want to take you through some of the key moments of their conversation, exactly as they were written. On November 1st of 2022, Jason liked a text that Jasmine sent him around 11 a.m.,
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Here's Jasmine's actual message, read in an AI-generated voice. Oh, and you should go on the Sut Creek Drive before all the leaves are really dropped. This was one of the most chilling moments of the trial for me. I've mentioned this text message before in an earlier episode. Jasmine either spelled the street name wrong or maybe it was autocorrected, but the typo didn't matter.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Every smudge and swirl could be a clue, and Moody's job is to make sure those clues get documented the right way. Next on the stand was Lieutenant David Franklin of the Chattanooga Police Department. With years of experience in fingerprint analysis and comparisons, Franklin had built a reputation as a go-to expert in this field.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
What mattered now was Jason's reaction to it. Because only 22 days later, Jason wouldn't just take that drive on Suck Creek Road. He would leave Jasmine there. But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here. Let's back up to that trip to Chicago late in October. Here's a bit of the text conversation leading up to that trip. On October 10th at 9.10 p.m., Jason sends this text to Jasmine.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Just a couple weeks later, they actually take this trip to Chicago together, even stopping to visit an uncle of Jasmine's that she had never met. By mid-November, their conversations continued with casual back-and-forth texting. There were gaps of time where they didn't talk for a few days, but nothing unusual. Then, on November 18th, Jason sends Jasmine a more suggestive message.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Jasmine reacted with a laugh to that last text from Jason. And by 7.18 that night, she had arrived at his apartment. On November 20th, Jason sends a text to Jasmine about how she inspired him to get donuts that morning. They exchanged casual dialogue.
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At this point, DA Wamp pauses and turns to Investigator Crawford. She asks him a simple but deliberate question. Would you agree that November 20th of 2022 is just two days before November 22nd, 2022? Crawford agrees. She continues, asking him to confirm what day of the week was November 22nd, 2022. Crawford replies, Tuesday. Womp follows up again.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
And that would mean November 23rd was a Wednesday? Crawford again agrees. With that timeline locked in, General Womp returns to the text messages.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Jasmine reacted with a heart to Jason's last text, then replied with a message telling him to have a good lab to get his homework done and that she was looking forward to Wednesday. These final texts show no sign of fear, hesitation or suspicion. Jasmine was engaged in the conversation. Her words are casual, natural and warm.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
The defense had tried to suggest a power imbalance, implying that one of them was more invested in the relationship than the other. But investigator Crawford confirms there's nothing in these texts to suggest that was true. Their messages remained even in their exchange, and their back and forth tone was affectionate without coming across obsessive.
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And yet, just two days later, all of this would change. Hearing investigators walk through Jason and Jasmine's messages today hit hard. Jasmine wasn't upset. She wasn't angry. She was just living her life, making plans, sending heart emojis, and looking forward to Wednesday. And then she was gone. It's haunting to think about.
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These weren't the messages of someone who was afraid or planning an escape. She wasn't breaking up with Jason. She wasn't even pulling away from him. Jasmine had no idea what Wednesday held in store for her. She had no idea that on Tuesday she would lose her beloved grandmother. And she definitely had no idea that just hours after that, her own life would be taken from her.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
From Franklin, we learn that fingerprints aren't just random smudges left behind on surfaces. They're made up of ridges, tiny raised lines on the surface of our skin. And those ridges form distinct patterns known as loops, arches, and whorls. Unique ridge patterns that form while we're still in utero, before we ever touch the world around us.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Next time on Sequestered, the state rests its case. After everything we've seen, the fingerprints, the timeline, the chilling digital evidence, one question remains. What will Jason Chen's defense have to say?
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
You don't want to miss Episode 7. It's about to get complicated. Thank you for listening to sequestered a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine pace. Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved and the weight of seeking justice. If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde. News clips featured in this episode were sourced from WTVC News Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga, and the Law and Crime Network.
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Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death. For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Loops are the most common, curving back on themselves like a river bending around a rock. Arches are more rare, simple wave-like patterns that rise and fall across the fingertip. Whorls are the most intricate, spiraling circular designs, almost like tiny thumbprint hurricanes. We all know that no two fingerprints are exactly alike, not even for identical twins.
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And once those ridges form in utero, they stay with us for life. We also got a primer on how investigators lift prints from evidence. Sometimes they use magnetic powders, which are fine particles that cling to the natural oils left behind by our fingers.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Other times they rely on a chemical process called cyanoacrylate fuming, essentially using superglue vapor to coat invisible prints, making them easier to see and photograph. It's super science-y and a little bit of CSI magic that turns a fingerprint into evidence. And today, that evidence was about to tell us a story.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Crime scene investigators submitted four separate fingerprint impressions to Lieutenant Franklin's unit. The first print was found on the exterior of the front passenger door of Jasmine's Chevy Equinox. At the time, I remember thinking, this could be a twist. Who did that print belong to? Someone unexpected? Someone connected to Jason?
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Turns out the print matched a set of known impressions already in the system, belonging to a man named Jim Cooper. We would later learn that Jim Cooper was not only a locksmith, but also a friend of the Pace family. He's actually the one who helped tow Jasmine's car from 900 Mountain Creek Road, the spot where her family eventually found it, back to their home on the early hours of November 27th.
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The other three prints submitted, two of them, along with a palm print, belonged to Investigator Crawford. There's a reason for that, and we'll come back to it later. But the most chilling discovery is the final fingerprint. It was found on the outside of the outermost garbage bag, the third and final bag that held Jasmine's body. And that print belonged to Jason Chen.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
But when my eyes finally closed that night, I couldn't think about anything else. During Dr. Cogswell's testimony, when the pictures of Jasmine's body were shown, I made an intentional decision not to look at the features on her face. Instead, focusing only on her wounds. I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe it was out of respect.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
The defense tries to poke holes here. How certain can you really be? Could there have been a mistake, a smudge, a mix-up in the lab? But Franklin doesn't budge. He leans into the microphone and says clear as day, Jason Chen made this print. Here's Latricia Thomas from News Channel 9 discussing this testimony during a break in court with Chattanooga attorney Bill Speak.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Fingerprint evidence is powerful, but digital forensics? That's where the case really starts to close in. Next on the stand was investigator Mark Hamilton, the state's expert in cell phone data, GPS tracking, and radio frequency analysis.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
It became immediately clear that his testimony wasn't supposed to happen until after the lunch break because instead of a suit and tie, Hamilton arrived in casual office attire, having being summoned straight from his desk at the DA's office. I guess we were ahead of schedule.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
General Womp made a point to mention this, acknowledging his unexpected wardrobe and maybe offering him a little grace to settle in before facing the jury. But before diving into his qualifications, General Womp addressed something important head on. She said, you actually work for me, don't you? It was an intentional move designed to make sure the jury knew the facts.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Hamilton works directly under District Attorney General Cody Womp. The subtext was clear. This was not a secret, and you should know about it. But Womp didn't just rely on their working relationship to establish his credibility.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Instead, she laid out his decades long career in digital forensics, emphasizing his deep expertise in tracking cell data, which is how signals move between towers, how GPS records a person's every step, and how, in today's world, our phones can tell a story more detailed than we ever realized. Hamilton had spent 60 to 70 hours analyzing the digital footprints of both Jasmine Pace and Jason Chen.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Maybe it was my way of staying somewhat detached so that I could do my job. I know everyone who sat through the testimony yesterday left the courtroom heavy, not just by what happened to Jasmine, but with the realization of how intentional it all was. Today's details won't focus on the violence that occurred inside O'Jason Chen's apartment. It's about the trail he left behind.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
And now he was about to take us through that timeline minute by minute. Because while people can lie, our cell phones don't.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
On November 22nd, cell phone data shows Jasmine departing her home in Hickson, Tennessee at 1127 p.m. and arriving at Jason Chen's apartment at 1142 p.m. At 218 a.m. on November 23rd, Jasmine's phone sends a location pin to Katrina Bean's cell phone. At 10.40 a.m. the morning of November 23rd, Jason and his phone heads to Walmart. Hamilton reveals that Jasmine's phone is also traveling with him.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Once again, General Cody Wamp pulls up the video footage. Jason Chen casually walking through Walmart, wearing his now infamous Anything Goes hat. She reminds the jury exactly what they're looking at. This isn't some random shopping trip. This is the morning after Jasmine Pace was last seen alive. It's a detail that's almost too absurd to believe.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Jason Chen, shopping for cleaning supplies and band-aids, wearing a hat that seems to mock the very idea of accountability. I mentioned that Jason had Jasmine's phone with him at this point. Hamilton points out something interesting. Where Jason went, Jasmine's phone went too. Until just like that, it went dark.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Womp asks, if a phone is turned off or a SIM card is removed, would her phone have gone dark? And Hamilton confirms that it would. DA Womp then asks where Jason Chen goes next. Based on cell phone records, his location was at Walgreens at 1.41 p.m., corroborated by the video of Chen walking into Walgreens. At this time, Jasmine's phone is still off.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
Then, around 4 p.m., both phones ping from the same cell tower.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
If that was hard to hear, Hamilton said that a text message was sent from Jason Chen to Jasmine Pace at this time. Remember this one?
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
The fingerprints, the cell phone pings, the digital breadcrumbs that tracked his every move. Each piece coming together like literal coordinates on a map, showing us not just what happened, but how. Because evidence tells its own story. And today, the evidence leading us is digital. This is Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11.
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Episode 06: The Evidence Tells the Story
At this point, Womp takes us back to Suck Creek Road, and Hamilton confirms something chilling. For the second time, Jason Chen's phone data shows him driving up and down Suck Creek Road. It's hard not to wonder why. Was he scouting, searching for the perfect spot? Presumably, he was looking for a place to dump that suitcase. At 5.08 p.m., Jason Chen returns to his apartment at 110 Tremont.
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Before we begin, please be advised that this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence as presented during the trial. Please take care while listening. It's Monday morning, January 13th, 2025, 6 a.m. I hear a knock at my door. At 6.27, I emerge from my hotel room and make my way down to the elevator, where four deputies and my fellow jurors are already gathered.
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Here's a clip of attorney Joshua Weiss' opening statement.
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Episode 02: The Trial Begins
Against the right wall in the far corner sits a small counter with just enough room for a sink and a commercial coffee maker. Above it, a set of cabinets. On the floor next to the counter stands a filtered water dispenser and a trash can. Beside the trash can, a small opening in the wall reveals a coat rack hanging between two bathroom doors.
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Episode 02: The Trial Begins
I remember writing furiously during the defense's statement. Every word felt critical. I wanted to document each of the defense's claims so that I can weigh them against the evidence I knew was yet to come. I needed to see if the facts aligned with the story Weiss was trying to sell, or if the truth would tell us something entirely different.
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Episode 02: The Trial Begins
After the opening statements, the prosecution called their first witnesses. One of the more emotional moments came when Jasmine's mother, Katrina Bean, took the stand. The weight of the moment was heavy. D.A. Womp says... But before she could take the stand, Katrina asked for a moment and stepped out of the courtroom to compose herself.
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A deputy rolls two more chairs into the room and reminds us again to knock on the door if we need anything. The 16 of us claim a chair and begin to settle in. Some immediately dive into books, others close their eyes, and a few initiate a game of Uno. Thankfully, I'd come prepared, with board games, a deck of cards, and an ample supply of Winto Green Lifesavers, which everyone appreciated.
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It wasn't until after the trial that I had fully grasped the gravity of this moment. Just earlier, during the defense's opening statement, Katrina had heard, for the first time, that Jason Chen was admitting to murdering her daughter. And then, almost immediately, she was called to take the stand as the first witness in the trial for that very murder. Yeah, I would have needed a moment too.
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The weight of that revelation still hung in the air as she returned to the room and took her seat in the witness stand. She was sworn in. When she finally began, her voice was unsteady and thick with grief.
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The emotion in the room was palpable, and it was impossible not to feel the sheer heartbreak of a mother being forced to relive the worst moment of her life in front of a jury, in front of the man responsible.
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Katrina recounted the last time she saw Jasmine alive, painting a vivid picture of her daughter's vibrant spirit. She spoke about Jasmine's energy, her kindness, her plans for the future. Each word a painful contrast to the brutal reality of why we were all in that courtroom. The jury listened intently, some shifting in their seats, others taking notes in quiet concentration.
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Katrina's testimony reminded everyone that this wasn't just a murder case. It was a family's worst nightmare, a mother's unbearable loss, and a young life stolen far too soon. One significant detail in this case was the passing of Jasmine Pace's great-grandmother on her mother's side, a woman Jasmine was deeply close to.
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On November 22, just hours before Jasmine was last seen, her great-grandmother was taken to the emergency room, where she passed away later that evening. By all accounts, this loss weighed heavily on Jasmine, and was mentioned during the trial as a possible factor in her emotional state leading up to her disappearance.
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The defense argued that Jasmine's grief played a role in seeking comfort in her interactions with Jason Chen, ultimately leading her to visit his apartment that night. While the prosecution didn't directly link this event to the crime, it added another layer of complexity in understanding Jasmine's mindset in her final hours.
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A reminder that she was not only a victim of violence, but also a young woman carrying the weight of profound personal loss.
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Episode 02: The Trial Begins
And as each hour passed, her fear grew. She refused to sit back and wait, so she became an investigator herself. On November 26, determined to track Jasmine's movements, Katrina went to a Verizon store and had her daughter's account loaded into a new iPhone.
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It was a brilliant move, because doing so gave her access to Jasmine's MyChevy app, allowing Katrina to see the vehicle's recent location and movements. They started with the last recorded address, 900 Mountain Creek Road. Jasmine's sister Gabby called their father, Travis Pace, and they all rushed to the parking lot, gathering in front of Jasmine's white Chevy Equinox.
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Episode 02: The Trial Begins
Lunch arrives at noon, and we are escorted down the hall into another, larger room to eat. With full bellies and hours of waiting behind us, we are ready to get this trial underway. Then, at 1.26 p.m., the bailiff knocks on the jury room door. The judge is ready for us. This is Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11.
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Episode 02: The Trial Begins
The vehicle sat there, locked and undisturbed, but Jasmine was nowhere to be found. A wave of panic set in as they realized this wasn't just a misunderstanding. Something was seriously wrong. Desperation took over. The family sprang into action, banging on apartment doors, calling out Jasmine's name, and questioning residents, hoping for even the smallest clue leading to her whereabouts.
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Some tenants barely cracked their doors open, groggy and confused. Others shook their heads, saying they hadn't seen anything. Each dead end heightening their fear. Time was slipping away, and Jasmine was still missing.
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Eventually, Katrina called the police. Officer Pierre of the Chattanooga Police Department was dispatched and met the family near Jasmine's vehicle to take a statement. While Officer Pierre was on site, Katrina turned to the Verizon phone logs on Jasmine's account, searching for any clue. Scrolling through the recent calls, she noticed one number that stood out.
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Jasmine had spent 71 minutes on the phone with this person on the morning of November 22nd. Katrina didn't know who the number belonged to, but she dialed. A man answered and identified himself as Jason Chen. From the start, something felt off. Jason played coy, acting casual, almost indifferent, claiming that he hadn't seen or spoken to Jasmine in a while. But Katrina knew that wasn't true.
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She was staring at the phone records that proved otherwise. When she pressed him for details, Jason gave her an address, 500 Tremont Street. The family would later check that address and discover it was a vacant house still under construction. One thing was clear, Jason was lying. Officer Pierre was still standing by and overheard the conversation.
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After reviewing the phone records himself, he confirmed what Katrina already knew. Jason had spoken to Jasmine that day, and now he was trying to cover it up. After gathering these details, Officer Pierre would leave the family to sort through having the vehicle towed back to their house. Later that night, he would officially enter Jasmine into the National Database for Missing Persons.
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ensuring law enforcement agencies across the country would be alerted to her disappearance. Waiting for the car to be towed, Katrina continued searching for answers, and something clicked. Scrolling through her text thread with Jasmine, she noticed a location pin that Jasmine had sent her at 2.18 a.m. on the morning of November 23rd.
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She had missed seeing this before because the text just above was a pin that Katrina had sent Jasmine from the hospital where her grandma was admitted the afternoon prior. The text messages must have blurred together. But now staring at her phone, Katrina can clearly see that Jasmine had sent this new location.
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Sadly, this would have been the last text that Jasmine herself would ever send her mom, a final text that in many ways would help solve her own murder.
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If you didn't catch that last part, Katrina said, so I sent her a pin drop showing her what hospital we were at. So I didn't notice she had sent me a pin drop because I thought it was the pin drop I sent to her. The pin Jasmine sent led to an address at 110 Tremont Street. a three-story apartment building housing over 50 individual units. It was the middle of the night, but that didn't stop them.
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They moved through the first floor, knocking on doors and showing photos of Jasmine to groggy tenants, hoping someone had seen her. As they made their way to the second floor, they encountered a neighbor who mentioned something chilling. Late on November 22nd, he had heard a woman scream coming from apartment 210. With fear and urgency mounting,
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Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is episode two. The trial begins. Everyone is standing as the jurors enter the courtroom, waiting for each of us to shuffle into the jury box and take our seats.
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They knocked on the door of 210 much more emphatically than the others. No response. Taking matters into their own hands, they forced entry, desperate to find any clue that could lead them to Jasmine. Once inside, they found startling evidence. Jasmine's driver's license and credit cards were tucked neatly inside of a desk drawer. Her travel bag sat on the counter, untouched.
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It was undeniable Jasmine had been here. Immediately, they exited the apartment and called 911. Two officers arrived and performed a walkthrough of apartment 210. Photos later taken from the officers' body cam footage showed the front door and the desk where Jasmine's ID and credit cards were now placed out in the open, intentionally positioned for the police to see upon entry.
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Yet, despite this evidence, the officers concluded that they found nothing suspicious inside. They said they would pass the information along and they left. Feeling unheard and unsupported, Jasmine's family refused to stand by. In fact, Katrina would re-enter the apartment multiple times over the following days, taking crucial belongings with her.
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Jasmine's ID and credit cards, her travel bag and some clothing. She also collected a box containing four smartphones, a tablet, a Polaroid camera, and a number of spiral-bound notebooks, items she thought might hold the answers the police had failed to pursue.
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If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you. Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, sequesteredpod.com. We've added exclusive blogs for every episode, packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights, and key moments from the trial.
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Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial, so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way. Defense Attorney Weiss would have his chance to question Katrina Bean on the stand next. During his cross-examination, Weiss would highlight inconsistencies in Katrina's testimony.
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She admitted to initially lying to police, stating that they had knocked on Jason Chen's door with enough force for it to open. However, she later testified that Jasmine's father, Travis Pace, had used a credit card to open the door.
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When pressed about a specific moment at Chen's door involving a police officer, Katrina candidly replied, Her response underscored the emotional toll of the case and the strain of reliving those events. As day one of the trial progressed, we would hear from key witnesses who provided crucial surveillance footage that helped piece together Jason Chen's actions after Jasmine's disappearance.
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Megan Bean, a Walmart asset protection employee, and Kelsey Campbell, a Walgreens manager, both testified about store records and receipts showing video footage of Chen purchasing items like Band-Aids, isopropyl alcohol, and hydrogen peroxide at various times in the afternoon hours of November 23rd, coinciding with the timeline of his cleanup efforts.
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Surveillance footage from Walmart clearly shows Chen at the register purchasing these items with an eerily calm demeanor. The prosecution, keen to point out a number of notable items in the shot, such as the red and white Henny Thing Goes hat, a pair of white laced Vans shoes on his feet, and the card holder on his iPhone case with a logo of Boston College on it.
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Judge Patterson invites the room to be seated and welcomes the jury. The bailiff swears us in. Next, a line of deputies moves in front of our jury box, standing shoulder to shoulder and facing the judge. They too are sworn in, not just as officers of the court, but as our protectors for the duration of the trial. A visible reminder of the weight of our role
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Scott Miller, a security officer for the Signal View Apartments and Condos, took the stand next. He described collecting and reviewing footage from a parking lot security camera that captured Jasmine's car passing by the front office of the Signal View condos at 900 Mountain Creek Road.
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The footage from the evening hours of November 23 showed the white Chevy Equinox quickly driving in and out of the camera's frame of view. Then, minutes later, a dark-colored Toyota Prius follows the same route. Footage from the RTIC or Arctic cams will later show this Prius dropping off a passenger about 12 minutes later in front of the lofts at Tremont at 110 Tremont Street.
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These pieces of evidence were critical in building the prosecution's case, further demonstrating Chen's calculated attempts to cover his tracks and mislead authorities. Before the court adjourned for the evening, the prosecution called their sixth witness to the stand, lead investigator Zachary Crawford of the Chattanooga Police Department.
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Crawford took the stand, gave his oath, and spoke his name for the record. He then explained his professional background and experience in law enforcement. On Sunday evening, November 27th, while at home with his family, a colleague prompted him to look at some Facebook posts about Jasmine Pace's disappearance.
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The posts, along with emerging details around her disappearance, immediately caught his attention. By 7 p.m. that night, the case had been escalated to a homicide investigation, and Crawford would be assigned as the lead investigator on the case. With careful prompting from DA Cody Womp, Investigator Crawford began walking the jury through the extensive crime scene investigation.
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He detailed the search efforts that involved multiple units, including homicide, crime scene, fugitive investigations, the FBI, and K-9 teams. The warrant for 110 Tremont Street, Apartment 210 was granted at 11.45 p.m. on November 27th, allowing investigators to enter and begin their search. Crawford methodically explained how crime scene investigators processed Jason Chen's apartment.
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Upon entry, the apartment was empty, but the evidence left behind told its own story. As Crawford testified, a series of photos taken during the search are presented, including images of Chen's hallway, front entrance, and bathroom tiles, all of which showed positive reactions to Blue Star, a forensic agent used to detect hidden blood.
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He described the removal of a carpet sample due to a dark red stain, blood trapped in the grout of the bathroom floor, and the eerie void inside Chen's closet, exactly the size of a suitcase. Additionally, Crawford clarified there were no signs of forced entry in the apartment, contradicting any claims of a struggle initiated by Jasmine.
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He also noted that despite the defense's previous statements, there was no detectable smell of marijuana in the unit. As he walked the jury through 56 photos of evidence, the prosecution carefully built the foundation for their case. Jason Chen had not acted out of panic, but instead had taken deliberate steps to cover up his crime.
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and the seriousness of the case before us. Then, Judge Patterson delivers an announcement. The jurors will be allowed to submit anonymous questions to witnesses throughout the trial. This would turn out to be quite a unique opportunity for us.
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Listening to all this, I couldn't help but imagine how devastating it must have been for Jasmine's family to sit in that courtroom and hear these details unfold. The sheer brutality of what happened to her contrasted sharply with the defense's attempts to downplay the severity of the crime, shifting the blame onto Jasmine herself. It felt unjust, unsettling, like an attempt to rewrite her story.
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But the prosecution would methodically lay out the evidence, piece by piece, and it would become clear that Jasmine's truth was undeniable. It was the evidence itself that would speak the loudest on her behalf. By now, it was after 6 p.m., and Judge Patterson noted that it would be a good stopping point for the day.
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He reminded the jurors of their obligation not to discuss the case or seek any outside information, and the court was adjourned, set to reconvene at 9.30 a.m. the following morning. The courtroom stood as the 16 of us rose and exited out the back door.
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Soon we would be piling into our 15 passenger vans and being shuttled off to dinner with our four deputies, who were quickly becoming our friendly support system. Day one was emotionally exhausting, a harrowing introduction to the weight of the case we would be asked to deliberate on. The prosecution had already begun piecing together the final moments of Jasmine's life.
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And with each new revelation, the gravity of our role as jurors became more real. This was not just a story anymore. It was a tragedy with real lives impacted forever. Next week on Sequestered.
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The evidence begins to stack up as investigators uncover bloodstains, suspicious items near the dumpster, and chilling handwritten notes that tighten the case against Jason Chen, leading to his arrest at his parents' house in Nolensville, Tennessee. The story continues. Stay with us. Thank you for listening to sequestered a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine pace.
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Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved and the weight of seeking justice. If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us. Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde.
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News clips featured in this episode were sourced from WTVC News Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga, and the Law and Crime Network. Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death.
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For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.
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Episode 02: The Trial Begins
As we step into the Hamilton County courtroom, the layout immediately defines the space where the trial will unfold. Judge Patterson's bench sits up off the ground and is positioned diagonally in the far left corner of the room, facing the courtroom entry doors.
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From this vantage point, he has a direct line of sight to the defense table, where attorneys Joshua Weiss and Amanda Morrison sit alongside the defendant, Jason Chen. Directly to their left, at the prosecution's table, sit District Attorney General Cody Womp and Chief Homicide Prosecutor Paul Moyle.
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We are counted multiple times before piling into the elevator. Once in the hotel lobby dining room, we grab breakfast, coffee, waffles, whatever we can stomach, while other hotel guests glance at us curiously, their eyes shifting between us and the uniformed officer standing guard.
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Beside them is a third person, one we would later learn to be Lead Investigator Zachary Crawford, a key figure in the case. To the right of the defense team, positioned along the right wall, is the jury. We sit in 16 blue office chairs, 14 of which are bolted to the ground, and all of which are in dire need of WD-40,
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At the back of the courtroom, centered between the jury box and the judge's bench, sits the witness stand. It faces forward, positioned so that the attorneys, the judge, the jury, and the gallery of onlookers can all see whoever takes the seat. This is where we would spend the next several days, watching, listening, and waiting to unravel the truth.
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One of the jurors, an architect in his real life, sketched a detailed layout of the courtroom during the trials. If you want to see exactly how the room was arranged, you can check out his drawing on our website. Judge Patterson begins by reading his opening comments, stating the official charges from the state of Tennessee.
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He outlined the trial process, explaining that evidence will include witness testimony, documents, and physical exhibits, and that the jurors may submit questions. He instructed jurors to avoid media coverage, outside research, and discussions about the case until deliberations begin.
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He also clarified that if a guilty verdict is reached for first-degree murder, a separate sentencing hearing will determine whether Chen receives life in prison or life without parole. He then invites District Attorney General Cody Womp to the stand. General Womp stood and commanded the room with a poised and confident presence.
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Slender, with long, blondish-brown hair and expressive brown eyes, she was smartly dressed, exuding professionalism and authority. Her confident demeanor was complemented by her clear, articulate speech, which carried both conviction and emotion, leaving no doubt about her intelligence and preparation.
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After breakfast, we are counted again, collected, and then sent back up the elevators to our rooms so we can get ready for the day. By 8 a.m., we are loaded into our designated vans and driven to the courthouse. Upon arrival at the courthouse, we are escorted inside and led directly to our jury room. We would spend a lot of time in this room, starting that morning.
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Standing tall and maintaining steady eye contact, she conveyed both strength and approachability, embodying the focus and determination of a seasoned prosecutor. She begins.
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When DA Cody Watt began her opening statement, she didn't just tell us what happened to Jasmine Pace. She showed us. She begins her opening statement by putting on blue medical gloves and pulling a large suitcase out of a cardboard box. She rolled the suitcase intently, stopping just in front of the jury box. My stomach dropped. This wasn't just a suitcase. This was the suitcase.
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The very one that had carried Jasmine's body. It served as a stark and unrelenting reminder of the crime. And we would see the suitcase many times throughout the trial. With the suitcase in front of us, Wamp began laying out the horrific details. Jasmine's body was discovered on Suck Creek Road, a remote winding roadway that runs along the Tennessee River.
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Known for its scenic views, the area's isolation made it an eerie and unsettling place for such a discovery. Inside the suitcase, Jasmine had been handcuffed and shackled in the fetal position. then wrapped in three black trash bags before being zipped inside and discarded along the river's edge. Her wounds were extensive, 60 stab and incised wounds in total.
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One of the wounds going straight through her neck, severing vital structures as it passed from right to left. Another was delivered with such force that the tip of the chef's knife used in the attack broke off inside of her lung, a detail the medical examiner would later uncover during the autopsy. Here's a clip of General Cody Womp's opening statement.
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The bailiff informs us that pretrial matters are still being handled, and the judge will let him know when it's time for us to enter the courtroom. In the meantime, we are to remain in this room. If we need anything at all, we're told to knock on the door, but otherwise, we wait. The room is small, maybe 20 feet long by 10 feet wide.
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Episode 02: The Trial Begins
Hearing these details for the first time was gut-wrenching, and it was only the beginning. I remember trying to sit up straight and focus on taking good notes. Attempting to process the sheer violence of it all was out of the question. It was terrible knowing that this young woman's life had ended in such a brutal and senseless way. But as a juror, my job wasn't to react.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 02: The Trial Begins
It wasn't to grieve or express outrage. It was to listen, to absorb the facts and assess them without bias. The prosecution would go on to lay out what they had intended to prove, that Jasmine's death was not accidental or impulsive, but a deliberate premeditated act, and that Jason Chen was the one responsible.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 02: The Trial Begins
Defense attorney Joshua Weiss took the stand next, presenting a stark contrast to General Womp's commanding presence. Dressed in a blue suit with a white shirt and a muted plaid tie, Weiss had more of a relaxed appearance. His shaggy hair and full beard gave him somewhat of an unpolished, every-guy look. Think Zach Galifianakis. He probably gets that a lot.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 02: The Trial Begins
His demeanor was calm, but lacked the sheen and confidence of his opposing counsel. Speaking in a low tone, his delivery came across as more of a rehearsed story than a compelling argument, leaving an impression of restraint rather than authority. Still, the defense's opening statement took a vastly different approach. Weiss wasted no time in admitting that Jason Chen had killed Jasmine.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 02: The Trial Begins
On the wall opposite of the door, three windows overlook Cherry Street. From our third floor vantage point, we have a direct view of the stark windowless walls of the former Hamilton County Jail, which now sits vacant. In the center of the room, a large wooden conference table dominates the space. surrounded by 14 black cushioned office chairs.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 02: The Trial Begins
but he insisted that it wasn't premeditated murder. Instead, he framed it as voluntary manslaughter, a crime of passion. Weiss painted Jason as someone who acted out of fear, shame, and emotional distress. He claimed that what happened wasn't a calculated act, but a tragic moment that had spiraled out of control.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 02: The Trial Begins
According to the defense, Jasmine became enraged after discovering Tinder messages on Jason's phone. In response, Weiss alleged, she grabbed a broken wine bottle and attacked Jason. In the chaos, Jason stabbed Jasmine, not with the intent to kill, but in self-defense. The way Weiss told it, Jason wasn't a murderer. He was simply a man caught in an emotionally charged moment, reacting out of panic.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
She deserves to be remembered, honored, and brought into the light. Jasmine did not deserve to be sequestered from her family, her friends, or the life that was taken from her. To ground you in this story, it's important to share a little bit about Chattanooga.
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Nestled in the southeastern corner of Tennessee along the Tennessee River, Chattanooga borders Georgia to the south and sits at the very western edge of the eastern time zone.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
It's home to the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, which plays a role in this case because Jasmine Pace's boyfriend, Jason Chen, was attending his senior year at UTC, majoring in computer science at the time of her death.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Chattanooga, aptly named the Scenic City, is split by the Tennessee River and sits at the junction of the Ridge and Valley Appalachians and the Cumberland Plateau, both part of the larger Appalachian Mountains. The area draws visitors year-round with its stunning natural beauty, including Lookout Mountain and Ruby Falls, home to the world's tallest underground waterfall open to the public.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
During our off day while sequestered, we visited Ruby Falls and I can't recommend it enough if you ever find yourself in the area. Chattanooga is internationally recognized from Glenn Miller's 1941 hit song, Chattanooga Choo Choo. Downtown, the city is connected by four main bridges spanning the Tennessee River.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
These pathways link the riverfront and North Shore to the Tennessee Riverwalk and the Bluffview Art District, providing a unique mix of outdoor and cultural experiences. The history here is rich, offering countless stories waiting to be uncovered. If you're a curious mind like me, I've included links in the show notes to help you take a deeper dive into Chattanooga's fascinating past.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Like many cities, Chattanooga has faced its share of crime challenges. However, according to a press release from January 24th, 2025, the city of Chattanooga and the Chattanooga Police Department reported an 11% overall drop in the crime rate for 2024. Despite its challenges, Chattanooga has earned a reputation as a vibrant and desirable place to live and visit.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
It's a picturesque town nestled between the mountains and the Tennessee River, a place known for its charm and beauty, But in the courtroom, I saw a different side of this city, one filled with grief, anger, and a determination for justice. This podcast isn't just about the trial. It's about Jasmine. It's about the people who loved her and the strangers who fought for her.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
I always like to take a peek at Reddit and see what the people are saying. My favorite reply about what's it like living in Chattanooga read like this.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Turns out, touch of the fishy is right. Chattanooga, Tennessee is home to an impressive variety of salamanders, including the hellbender, spotted salamander, and common mudpuppy. If you're a salamander enthusiast, you'll be thrilled to know that the Chattanooga Zoo runs a program dedicated to repopulating the hellbender salamander, a species rapidly disappearing from the area.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Before my sequestration in Chattanooga, I had visited the city probably a half a dozen times. Living just two hours away in Nashville, Chattanooga makes for an easy go-to weekend getaway. The drive east on Interstate 24, where you emerge from the mountains to the stunning view of Nickajack Lake, is one of my favorites.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
I'd describe Chattanooga as a mountain town nestled along the river, offering outdoor adventures, creative energy, and surprisingly great food. As we step into the first day of trial, I want to bring you into my headspace. It's Sunday, 2pm in the afternoon. The time has arrived. I'm being dropped off to join 15 other people and start my jury service.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
I hand over my phone, load my two large suitcases into the back of a van, and climb in to meet my fellow jurors. For someone who isn't naturally outgoing, this was like being thrown into the deep end of some wild social experiment. It was just us, the jurors split into two 15-passenger vans, oh, and the deputies guarding and driving us to Chattanooga.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Some of us talked, some had books or journals to focus on, but there wasn't much else to distract us, except for the task ahead. I watched downtown Nashville fade away through the van window. I already missed my person and my dogs. With a deep breath, I let acceptance settle over me. This was my world now, for the next 10 to 14 days at least.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
When we arrived at the hotel, I checked into my room and began unpacking my clothes and other essentials. Knowing this would be my home for the foreseeable future, I moved in. To pass the time, I sketched a diagram of my hotel room. It's posted on our website if you're curious about my artistic skills.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
The knocking on a door would become a new form of communication for me, serving both as my morning wake-up call and signaling the jury that the judge was ready for us. No TV, no phone, no electronics. This was all to ensure we remained shielded from any media coverage of the state of Tennessee versus Jason Chen. The rules were strict, but I understood why.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
This case had dominated the news in Chattanooga. I've shared so much about the city of Chattanooga to help you understand why the jury for this trial had to be brought in from another part of the state. Cases like this are not common in Chattanooga, and Jasmine Pace's disappearance shook the entire community.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
The search for Jasmine was everywhere, on the news, in the media, and on the hearts and minds of the people all over town. This was a city desperate for answers and desperate to bring Jasmine home. I understood the need for sequestration. This case wasn't just in the news. It was the news in Chattanooga. Next time on Sequestered.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
It's about the experience of being sequestered, both as a juror and a human being. And it's about the choices we make when the weight of justice rests on our shoulders. This is Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
The trial begins with shocking opening statements that set a defining tone. We'll hear from a mother desperate for answers and an investigator determined to uncover the truth. This is just the beginning. We'll see you in the next episode. Thank you for listening to Sequestered, a juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved and the weight of seeking justice. If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us. Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, edited, and produced by me, Sarah Reed, with co-production by Andrea Clyde.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
News clips featured in this episode were sourced from WTVC News Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga, and the Law and Crime Network. Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story, and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family, and the community affected by her death.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram at sequesteredpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is Episode 1, Jury Duty. In October 2024, I was caught off guard by a voicemail from the Davidson County Courthouse. The message informed me that I had failed to report for jury duty.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
Jury duty? I had never even received a summons. Unsure of how this had happened, I quickly followed the court's instructions, filling out the necessary information online to rectify the situation. Over the next several weeks, life moved on as I traveled to New Zealand and Australia for work. But when I returned home and dove into the daunting task of catching up on unopened mail, there it was.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Jury duty, clear as day. I stared at the envelope, unaware of how profoundly it would shape the weeks to come. The holidays and New Year's celebrations came and went, and before I knew it, 2024 had ended. By January 8, 2025, I found myself walking into the Davidson County Courthouse in Nashville, Tennessee, joining 117 other potential jurors in a large, featureless room filled with rows of chairs.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
And yet, as I reflect on the trial, I can't help but think that Jasmine Pace, in her own way, was sequestered too. Separated from her family, her friends, and ultimately her future. What happened to Jasmine wasn't just tragic, it was cruel. And now it was up to 12 strangers, including me, to find the truth and seek justice for her.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
I chose a seat toward the back, pulled out my phone, and prepared to settle in. It was clear we were going to be here for a while. Some people milled around the coffee station at the front of the room, pouring from a large carafe and stirring in powdered creamer before retreating to their seats. Others were engrossed in books, tapping on laptops, or scrolling mindlessly on their phones.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
A few small groups formed, exchanging grumbles about how this unexpected civil duty was disrupting their day. The air was thick with a shared sense of impatience and uncertainty as we waited for our names to be called. We sat in the room for what felt like ages before a couple of important looking men called the first several rows to stand.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
One man barked instructions about the third floor and then escorted the group toward a set of elevators. At least half of the room had departed by this point, leaving the rest of us to wait. Hours later, I found myself seated on a wooden pew in the gallery of a courtroom. I chose a spot near the back in the second row to the last.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
The remaining potential jurors filled the other pews and the two back rows were reserved for what I assumed were family members connected to the case. The courtroom had a sense of quiet gravity. At the front of the room, I immediately noticed the judge, the bailiff, and other administrative staff moving with reverence.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
The defense team was seated at a table facing the jury box, an attorney seated on either side of the man I quickly identified as the defendant. His name, I would soon learn, was Jason Chen. Chen appeared in the courtroom with a reserved demeanor. He had a slender build, short black hair, glasses, and was dressed neatly in professional attire.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
To me, he seemed nervous, though he maintained a calm and composed presence, his body language restrained but alert. In this courtroom, the jury box was positioned across from the defense table, with General Womp and the prosecuting team seated to the right. Directly across from them, presiding over the courtroom with a calm authority, was Judge Patterson.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
It was pretty clear to me at this point in the day that the process was already well underway. In the jury box, 16 potential jurors occupied two rows of sleek, black office chairs. Each chair was padded and noticeably comfortable.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
Sequestered. It's not a word I ever thought would describe my life. But for nine days, it did. My phone was taken away, I couldn't talk to my family, and every decision about where I went, what I ate, and even how I spent my free time was made for me. I was isolated, not just from the world, but from the life I knew.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Just in front of them, another five potential jurors were seated in a single row of less accommodating chairs, and their simpler design was a stark contrast to the cushy ones behind them. To me, the arrangement highlighted the orderly and deliberate structure of the selection process, underscoring the weight of the task at hand.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Judge Boyd Patterson welcomed the remaining jurors into the courtroom, his voice steady and authoritative. He began with introductions, starting with District Attorney General Cody Womp and her co-counsel, Chief Homicide Prosecutor Paul Moyle, along with defense attorneys Joshua Weiss and Amanda Morrison.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
He then provided a brief summary of the case, setting the stage for what would become an unforgettable experience. I remember hearing something like this.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
Judge Patterson addressed the room with a straightforward question. Has anyone heard of this case or recognized any of the faces in this courtroom today? Hands hesitantly went up. Those who raised their hands were called to the bench one by one where a few quiet words were exchanged.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
After each brief interaction, those with information about the case and the people involved were excused from service. Once this initial screening was complete, Judge Patterson delivered a formal admonition to all potential jurors. He instructed us not to research the case, discuss it with anyone, or form any opinions based on outside information. Then he dismissed the room.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
We were to return to the courthouse at 8.30 a.m. the following morning. On day two, the real work began. Selecting a jury... Both legal teams introduced aspects of their case and asked deeply personal and thought-provoking questions of those seated in the jury chairs. They asked about employment history, marital status, and the ages of their children.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
Then they dug into jurors' views on murder, their ability to handle graphic evidence, their perspectives on law enforcement, and even whether they or someone close to them had ever been arrested. What followed was a strategic and methodical process. Both sides volleyed eliminations, excusing jurors one by one.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
Slowly, those seated in the cheap seats were called forward to fill the more prominent jury chairs, and new names were summoned to replenish the front row. It was a delicate game of musical chairs, each one bringing the trial one step closer to beginning in earnest. Just before our lunch break, my name was called.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
What followed lunch on this day was a blur of events that seemed to happen in mere minutes. My seat was promptly upgraded to what I referred to as the first class section in the jury box. The legal teams returned to their sticky notes, deliberating once again, and before I had fully processed what was happening, Judge Patterson had announced that the jury had been selected.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
The remaining potential jurors were excused from service, and the final 16, 12 primary jurors and four alternates, were officially sworn in to serve for the trial. With that, we were whisked away into a jury room tucked behind the courtroom, where we received our official instructions.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
Jasmine was a vibrant young woman, just 22 years old. She had her whole life ahead of her. But in November of 2022, she went missing. Her family and friends searched desperately for her, plastering her photo across social media and the local news. It didn't take long for the town of Chattanooga to rally behind them, hoping for her safe return.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you. Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, sequesteredpod.com. We've added exclusive blogs for every episode, packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights, and key moments from the trial. Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to sequesteredpod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way. We were required to report back to the Davidson County Courthouse on Sunday, January 12th at 2 p.m., exactly two and a half days later.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
That meant I had just two and a half days to prepare to leave my life behind for two weeks, cut off from technology and the outside world. Upon our departure from Nashville, our phones would be taken, leaving us with just one five-minute call each day. No phone, no TV, no white noise to fall asleep to, and most importantly, no talking about the case, not even to our fellow jurors.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
The isolation was absolute, a stark adjustment to modern life and a reminder of the responsibility we carried. My producer snagged a recording on her iPhone as we were pulling into the parking lot that Sunday. Here's a glimpse into the feelings I was having at that moment.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
I have a lot of feelings of like having to leave. Like it feels like I'm going to like therapy retreat or something because I have to
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
But this story didn't have the ending anyone hoped for. Days later, her body was discovered and the man accused of her murder, her boyfriend, Jason Chen, was arrested. What followed was a trial that shook the community and changed my life forever. Chattanooga isn't a place you'd expect to be the center of such a chilling story.
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Episode 01: Jury Duty
say goodbye to my people and my animals and my life for two weeks it's actually quite hard yeah so but i know i'll move in to like the right mode yeah you know when as soon as i get out of this truck yeah okay we're here we're pulling into public square and here are the other jurors saying goodbye to their children it's so sad i mean i can't even imagine yeah it's weird okay
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
The word sequestered has taken on a profound meaning for me since my time on this jury. I have found myself reflecting deeply on this experience. Soon after I returned home, I looked up the word, and the definition struck me. Isolated. Hidden away. Secluded. Concealed. Taken.
SEQUESTERED Podcast
Episode 01: Jury Duty
As I began to write and piece together my experiences on the sequester jury, I couldn't help but draw this heartbreaking parallel. Jasmine Pace had been taken, secluded, hidden away. Jasmine Pace had been sequestered too. Throughout this podcast, I will share my perspective of this trial, but my goal is to keep Jasmine at the forefront.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I feel like we could have just ran him across the street and gotten him help faster than My husband went with him by ambulance to Baylor. I had to deliver the placenta still. I'm sure I'm telling myself, this isn't happening. My doula, after the birth, she called another one of her doula friends to have her come replace her. My doula was spent, this was a long day, emotionally draining.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And I think she really knew the gravity of what had just happened. Whereas I didn't understand anything yet. I did not know how serious this was. Even at this point when they took him away, I just thought, okay, maybe he had a hard time breathing and they're taking him to the hospital. I still had to deliver this placenta. I do not have any recollection of delivering the placenta at all.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Afterwards, she said, you can't go until you go pee. I remember I sat there and tried and I tried. I was so frustrated. And she's like, I could catheterize you. And I'm like, good, please. You know, I remember her saying it's going to hurt. And I'm thinking, are you kidding me? From what I've been through for the last how many days, like I could literally care less if you catheterize me.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Someone drove me. Julie was there. Amy went with me too. By the time I got there, he was already in a NICU bed. He was seizing the ambulance on the way to the hospital. When he went to the NICU, he had no reflexes. They would scrape the bottom of his foot. Your toes are supposed to curl. None of that happened. If they pull their arms down, they're supposed to kind of spring back up.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
That didn't happen. All these little check marks. They were assessing him and determined that he had moderate HIE, which HIE stands for hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy. It's essentially lack of oxygen to the brain. He was already in a NICU bed on the cooling blanket. The faster they initiate it, the better chance it has of working. So they cool their body down to like 92.3 degrees.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
They want him to go essentially into hypothermia. This allows the brain to heal itself instead of continuing to swell. Once the cooling is initiated, they can be on it for 72 hours. After that 72 hours, they have to warm him back up to normal body temperature. It's such a delicate process. When he warmed him up, he started having continuous seizures.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
He was on loads of phenobarb and Versed and stuff like that that were supposed to stop them, and they didn't. He's obviously fully intubated at this point. I think he was five or six days old in the hospital before they put him on my chest again with all of his tubes this time and intubated and EEG on his head and all this stuff. They told us that he was brain damaged.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Now, the extent of the brain damage, they said they're not going to be able to see until we're able to do an MRI. But you should expect to see large, large areas of brain damage there. It's been long enough that his lungs are clean. There's no more meconium in it. He's not breathing because his brain is not telling his body to breathe. That's how much brain damage there is.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
So that's why he's on a ventilator. And at that point in time, my husband said, that sounds like we just have more to pray about. Of course, I'm just a wreck. I'm like, you're not understanding what he's saying. I would go to the hospital every day, all day long from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. My mother and my husband made me return home every night so I could try and be a quote normal person.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
But I was not. I was sick and I had this sick feeling in my stomach. And I remember knowing I can't live with this feeling in me. I'm like, it's my fault. I shouldn't have been at this birthing center. You know, I should have been here the whole time. Why wasn't I here? He was born April 22nd. It was the 25th. That's when they warmed him up. Seizures nonstop until May the 6th.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
We went home that night and we were anointed with oil from Jerusalem, which my mom had gotten on her trip to Israel. Anointed with oil on behalf of my son. Our family prayed. And when we walked in the NICU the next day, he was breathing room air. That same very day, they pulled out his nose cannula. They put him to the breast and he started breastfeeding by mouth for the first time.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
There's two therapists, Karen and Jenny. Jenny is a speech therapist. Jenny was the one who, when they put Tuff on the breast for the first time, she was crying and she was saying, suck, swallow, breathe. That's what he's doing. He's not brain dead. His brain is telling him to do this.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Then Karen comes rushing in because they're friends, and she's the occupational therapist who checked Tuff's reflexes when they first got him in there. Then Karen checked all of his reflexes, and he all of a sudden was doing everything. His toes curled, you know, his arms popped back.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Then she's in tears, and she said in her 30-something years being at Baylor, she had never seen a miracle like Tuff. He never had a seizure again. Slowly but surely, they took all the tubes off of him, and they realized he didn't need it. And we walked out of the hospital May 14th. We knew we'd seen a miracle. Got the MRI back, and it came back as normal. It showed a few areas of low blood flow.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Ischemia is what they had said. But overall, they still considered it a, quote, normal MRI. And we were told to expect something far, far worse. We had the greatest team taking care of us. But tough to me is nothing but a miracle, a miracle straight from God.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Obviously, everything that the nurses and the doctors did saved his brain from any further damage that was caused by the lack of oxygen through the cooling therapy and the cooling blanket. And the sweet nurses and therapists...
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
We all kind of kept in contact really probably via just text message. I wasn't mentally doing so well most of the time while he was there until he started getting better. I would tell them what was going on, keep him up to date. When he did start getting better, I'm like, tell the whole world. Everyone was really thrilled.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
We went afterwards with Tuff to Origins, took a picture with the midwives like all the babies do. You know, you go for your post visit. So we did all of that.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
But we had to wean him off of phenobarbital. That's a very powerful drug. They told us he had infantile spasms. It's a type of seizure. There was this therapy called ACTH, this hormone, that he got injections twice a day in each leg for two weeks straight. So we had to continue to do those when we brought him home for the infantile spasms. He had a spinal tap at two weeks.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
He had all these pokes and prods, EEGs and lines in his belly button. All of these things that you know were extremely painful. And it makes me so sad for him that he had to go through that. My doula, she wrote me a summary. She had said things were a little shocking with how they treated him after the birth. Access to the baby was substandard to say the least.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
She said they did include me in the resuscitation as a partnership and respectful in searching me out for advice and assurance that they were doing the best things.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Yeah. My doula was a nurse, but she's not there as a nurse. That's why she had said to me in this email that she was really trying to stay in her lane. She says, I'm not a nurse when I'm a doula, and I really try to compartmentalize that.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
But once it came down to a life or death situation, she said, I didn't really care about staying in my lane and being fearful of my license as a nurse because she was driven strictly by her instincts to do everything that she could for him and for me. If my doula wasn't there, how much worse would it have been? He was in physical therapy for the first year of his life.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I remember they said he needed to crawl by nine months. There was this big looming deadline in my head. He's got to crawl by nine months. He was like eight months and 30 days, and he got the knees and crawled. We were screaming and jumping and crying. It was so huge. They told us, we'll see if he walks. We'll see if he talks. They just kept kind of inching out this milestone thing.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
That baby who was supposed to be brain dead, he was riding his balance bike flying down driveways at 17 months old. But he was appropriately named. And now we have three more brothers and sisters. That was always the plan. We were going to fill up the house. So now we have four babies and he's the sweetest big brother in the world.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
It wasn't until a year later when I was watching a movie with my husband and there was a woman giving birth in the movie. It sent me. complete panic attack meltdown. And my sister-in-law gave birth a year later and that sent me into a meltdown. I was physically starting to have panic attacks about this subject.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I just remember thinking if I had just gone straight to the hospital, you know, they would have known his heart rate. They would have known why I wasn't dilating. I probably could have asked for some drugs by then and I could have been able to push through the pain. You know, just all these things that, of course, I put on myself later that isn't fair.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And that was when I started thinking of, was this right? Was my son really in the best of care? We saw the meconium in the birthing center. That's where it all went wrong. I was low risk until I wasn't. As soon as you introduce something like the meconium, it changes everything. It changed my birth and it changed my son's story. We were just constantly being reassured that everything was fine.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
My mom told me later that in the NICU that night when everybody rushed in and Tuff was already on the cooling blanket, we were all in the waiting room. My mom said, I'll never forget that Amy looked at her and said, I'm just so sorry, but these things just happen. Our world is destroyed, right? Our family doesn't know what's happening to their first grandchild from me. And I'm like...
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
No, these things do not just like I know bad things happen. OK, but this one was avoidable. I feel like there was enough warning signs. And if I hadn't been blind with pain and exhaustion, I would have been the one to say it. Me and my husband, we weren't even at our first wedding anniversary yet by the time that this whole thing happened with Taff.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
He said to me something like, I knew you wanted to do this and I was fully supportive. But had I known you like I'd known you now, I would have physically carried you out of that plate. Like we would have been gone. We just literally didn't know each other like that. I didn't know what I could and couldn't say to you.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I don't think it was malicious, but they were not competent in what they were doing. Amy's license says June 6th of 2018. So that's less than a year before my son was born. Meanwhile, Megan was less than a year. She was August of 2018. I think about the birth every single day, and it's quite frankly exhausting. This summer, I was doing a little bit of internet Facebook sleuthing.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Hi, my name is Sarah. Me and my husband, we met in February of 2018. We got engaged in March the next month, and we got married in May. So it was a whirlwind courtship, engagement, marriage, the whole thing. It was wonderful. Shortly thereafter, by August, I found out I was pregnant with Tuff, my son. I was pregnant with him at the rodeo in Las Vegas. And there's a tough Hedeman.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Amy's page, I've had her muted for a long time. I haven't outright unfriended her, but it causes me a lot of anxiety.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
anxiety seeing her all the time but somehow I stumbled upon Kristen's profile and then I saw we had a mutual friend Amy and then I deep dived and that's when I found Markita and her story and I was utterly shocked I saw the kind of work Kristen was doing it made me think there's more people out there than just me this hasn't just happened to me in tough
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I don't know why I didn't assume this before. I didn't know these type of things really did keep happening and not only happening, but happening there. Maybe with different midwives, but still at origins. So I reached out to Kristen. Then she reached out to me again in December and I heard about this podcast. I haven't heard anything from Amy in probably five plus years.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Not anything after Tuff was three or four months old. I don't post much. She randomly liked to post and went deep diving maybe into my socials and started liking and commenting. And obviously it's just because of this podcast. It was the day I reached out to her. Yeah, the very day. I thought, oh, wow, here she comes because all of a sudden her name's been dropped.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
But she hasn't asked in the past five years, hey, how's Tuff doing?
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
He's an old bull rider. And then there's also a tough Cooper. He is a roper. We talked to his mom and I said, my husband wants to name our kid tough. She said, well, just know that that's what you're going to get if you do it. And I said, okay, well, I'm not too scared of that. We need a tough boy from Texas. He was tough from when he was in my belly.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
It wasn't because of what happened, although it proved to be so poetic. Yes. I was 31 years old. I had waited a long time to finally have my babies. I had been going to a regular OBGYN. Everything was going well, but I had started to feel anxious. not a real personal connection. I felt like a number. Next pregnant person in the door, out the door, go through the motions.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And maybe I didn't need a lot of attention. There was nothing dramatic about my pregnancy. I'd never even got morning sickness. One of the last times I saw my OB, I walked by her in the doctor's office. She just looked at me like she literally had no idea who I was. And I had been seeing her for 20 plus weeks. And I said, OK, I need to find something else.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
She reached out to me March 16th. I'll just read it to you. It says, I honor your feelings and memories, even if they are different than mine. It was an honor to be a part of your labor and birth, and I remember that day so clearly. The meconium was trapped behind his head and unknown until birth. It was a shock, and we acted quickly to support and stabilize while NICU was en route.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Julie, a hospital trained CNM, and I both remember the day so well. And then she sent a link to meconium aspiration syndrome. And that was her message.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
She doesn't even know what I remember. That's the funny thing. She hasn't heard anything from me. She sent me a link to Makoni Masturbation Cinema. Obviously, I understand what that is. I have to live through it. I'm still living through it. The timing couldn't be better for my rage because this week I had to take Tuff to the neurologist again. He had to have an EEG.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
He's sitting there saying to me while they're putting the things on his head, Mommy, what's wrong with my brain? I have to tell him, nothing is wrong with your brain and you are perfect. But we have to make these check-ins and we have to do this stuff. When I'm long and gone, he's going to have to keep up with his own paperwork and make his own appointments. All because of this one day.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I wrote her back. I just gave it to her. Some of what I said was, it does seem like we do indeed remember the day differently. Julie is a CNN, but you and Megan were the midwives in charge of our care. And you being the owner of Origins at the time, I feel like it defaults to you.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
fully aware of meconium aspiration syndrome now unfortunately i wasn't at the time i was giving birth one thing you might be forgetting was that when my water broke there at the birthing center i had meconium stained amniotic fluid which then put me at a much higher risk for mas meconium aspiration syndrome so it shouldn't have been a shock that meconium was present at delivery
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And she's saying it was a shock, like she didn't know it was there. What are you talking about? My water had been broke for over 31 hours with meconium by the time my son was born. And I said, had the risk been explained to me that your child could be brain damaged or die, then I would likely have chosen to transfer with this vital information.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I was owed at least the full explanation of the risks of staying. Then, no, he was not stabilized. I have hospital paperwork that shows he had no respiratory effort and no heart rate when the NICU team arrived. In fact, he was not alive. I told her there's a survivor group of origins with over 40 people in it. I tell her about the mental side effects for me and my husband.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I wrote her this very heartfelt eight page thing to her. Like, here's what I think you did wrong. Here's where you can do better. This is how it affected me and others around. Basically, I hope we can kind of move forward. The Christian woman in me is trying to forgive Amy Tate. But she writes, Sarah, I'm glad you shared your feelings. I respect them and wish your family nothing but the best.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Looking at midwives, I was directed to Ina May Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth. The premise is basically that your body is made to birth. I was thinking, well, I can do this. I don't have any problems. I'm healthy. Beginning of 2019, I Googled birth centers in Dallas. I called two birthing centers around to schedule a tour, and Origins was the first one to call me back.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I do want to clarify that Julie was not a student at the time. She was a CNM. but training in out of hospital birth as she had only worked in the hospital. Tuff did have a heartbeat the whole time. We performed NRP and called over the NICU team. They had MAS at the hospital and told us it took longer because they had to come over separately.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
We used suction, oxygen, and the Doppler the whole time and they intubated when they got there. Also, the survivors of the origins group was started long after I was bought out. I do not know the people in that group. And then she wrote, I will also never forget Tuff. So then I wrote back, here is the paperwork from the trained medical professionals about what happened to him.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And I'll let that be the end. It's a screenshot from his actual Baylor University paperwork that says, on arrival, infant noted to have no respiratory effort and no heart rate. Infant suction due to visible meconium noted in mouth and PPV initiated after 30 seconds of effective PPV and while awaiting intubation equipment. Chest compressions initiated due to absent heart rate.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I'm not sure. After I sent her the thing with the paperwork, she wrote, We repeatedly state our sorrow, love, and prayers for Tuff and your family during and after the transport. You have always been in thought and prayer. I can only speak to the heart rate we were getting during the neonatal resuscitation we performed as we waited for the transport team. She has yet to say, I did anything.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
It's probably maybe for legal reasons. She doesn't want to say that. She'll say, I'm sorry for the trauma you went through. It's like doing something to somebody and going, I'm sorry that it made you feel that way. Actually, that's not the same thing. I went to Origin's website and it says, if your health care provider needs your records, please sign release to this email address.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I haven't heard anything from them. And I'm like, you know what? I'll just go straight to Amy. Hey, Amy, I'd like a copy of my medical records. She says, I'm so happy to send them to you, Sarah. What is your email address? And I gave her the address. Then she wrote, I'm also happy to meet again and hear you. I value all of your feedback and honor your feelings. I pray peace over your heart.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
But I still don't have any medical records. So there's that. That's what irritates me the most. I'm not holier than thou. You don't have to talk to me like I'm a holy roller, okay? But I feel like that's what she tries to do. Amy owns her own birth center now, Swiss Avenue Birth and Wellness Center. It's literally on the same street that Origins was on. Another small little Victorian house.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
My point in saying all of this is that it wasn't the name of origins that has done all of this. It's the midwives. Yes, it was a hell house. There's a lot of bad stuff that happened in there. But who was facilitating that? Origins got shut down. And now we just have like four different origins that have sprouted up in its place.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I mean, this is Jennifer's own words. It's screenshotted. June 20th of 2019. Now don't forget my son, he was born April of 2019. So just two months later, Jennifer started. First day, first birth. It was an honor to be a part of the love and compassion that goes with out-of-hospital midwifery care. What is sad is that March 25th of 2020, she posted, midwifery is hard.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
This beautiful sleeping baby and her sweet family are in my continued thoughts and prayers. I don't know who that is referencing, but that is referencing another baby lost March 25th of 2020. She just has this on her Facebook. Your world lost a baby. And who knows how many that there are.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
According to Jennifer's Facebook, July 18th of 2020, she writes a post, Still in awe, my dream is finally coming true. So thankful for my amazing preceptor, Amy Tate, and all my midwife mentors who cheer me on. They have their name and then they have these letters behind it. Do we all know what all these letters mean? Do you go and Google licensed midwife or CNM, certified nurse midwife?
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I liked what I saw on the website. It seemed like, oh, they have got a lot of experience.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
They've got these letters behind. To me, it meant something in the medical world. If the state of Texas would allow a place like Origins to have many, many, many babies born there, one would assume that if this is legal, then they have gone through a rigorous check. If I could implore any woman to please do more research than I did.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
If I could go back and tell myself everything, I would say, think of your baby. not of you and your birthing experience that you want to have. I think that every birth can be magical in itself, whether it is inside the walls of a hospital or in a birthing center. But to me, it's not about me. It's about your unborn baby who doesn't have the choice of how's he going to come out.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
If I wanted to go all natural, I could have done that within the safety of a hospital. I think midwives are great. I saw a wonderful midwife group after Tuff with my subsequent children that delivered in a hospital. I got admitted and I was, quote, trying to go natural again. I gave myself a 12-hour limit. I'm not going to go through 30-something hours of this again. And so I hit my 12-hour mark.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I got an epidural. I do not know why I ever suffered for days on end in this kind of pain. So I put my makeup on, my fake eyelashes and, you know, the whole thing. I was the happiest girl in the world. midwife. She said, we don't have to call it, but you might be in for a long push. And after what happened last time, I don't want this to be any type of emergent situation. I said, you know what?
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Yes, the three of them owned it. I was only ever associated or had any really contact with Amy. The other two must have been owners, but in the background. We toured it. Me and my husband went. It's this old Victorian looking house in downtown Dallas. It's got a beautiful park next door. The key factor, though, for me and my husband when we went is there is Baylor, Dallas. They showed us around.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I am perfectly fine with a C-section. If what's safest for my baby is to call the OB and get him here right now and let's just get him out, let's do that. And she said, I do think that That's what's safest for you and your baby as long as you're okay with that. And this is a midwife saying this. She's not here trying to push for a natural birth. And I respected her more for that.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And I said, call the doc. I've already got my makeup on. You're telling me I could hold my baby within an hour? Like, let's do this. My second son, Rocky, came out and I just wanted him to breathe. That was it. I could care less what amount of drugs they pumped into me or didn't. I just wanted to hear him cry. And he did. And he's perfect. He's fine. He's all mine.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And it didn't matter that I had a C-section with him. That was the safest option at that point. At the end of the day, it's you and your baby that come home or don't come home. Whoever you birth with, an OB, a midwife, they all just go back to their lives and keep going. They can forget what happened or how traumatic they really were.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Because only you go home with your baby and are left to deal with the doctor appointments. You can feel like they're part of your family and get that warm and fuzzy and the birthing center is beautiful and great. It's just a business. Birthing is business. And I hate to say it like that, but it's 100% true.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And I think that that's why we didn't get transferred to the hospital, because they probably would lose out on money.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
If you have any doubt in your head, get a second opinion or go to the hospital. If something isn't right, advocate for yourself, advocate for your baby. If something is off, it's okay to get out of there. I had that bargain with God that if he'd save my son, I'd tell as many people as possible. I need to tell his story, not only for his sake, but for my sake. I need to get this off my chest.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I finally, this week, joined the Origins Survivors Group. There's big stuff happening because of what went wrong at Origins. I'm very proud of Kristen and all the girls. I'm kind of late to the game, but I'm getting involved. I know you'll move on to other stories and things will happen, but you know what?
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
This needed to happen for the birth community and obviously for Dallas, but where else is this going to reach? I hope that Malik's Law gets pushed through and we can make birthing safer. It's not about attacking the midwives. It's about making birth safer for the moms and the babies because that just should be the bottom line.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Absolutely. I'm happy to finally be able to tell our story almost six years later. Very grateful.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
They also showed us this beautiful mirrored cabinet that had all of their safety equipment. They open it up. They said, here's all our safety stuff in case we have any type of emergency. If you're not going to give birth at home, this is where you want to give birth. It is quaint. It's cozy. All the things. But then look right in the backyard. There's Baylor.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I told my husband, I really think I can do this. I'm made to do this. I'm all fired up. And if anything goes wrong during labor, I can be transferred to the hospital. He was like, I'm here to support you. If I were the one giving birth, I wouldn't do it, but not in a worrisome way because I think he felt the same security.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
If things aren't going well or something happens, the hospital's right there. I've got like three best friends. I told them, They were like, are you sure this is a good idea? They were the only ones who were really openly apprehensive about this. My mom was like, well, this is different, but if this is what you want to do, okay.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I don't think she really understood it, but she was, in the end, I think, supportive. When I transferred to the midwife, I was around 34 weeks. So I was very far along. Then I started looking into a doula. There's a doula place, North Dallas Doula Associates in DDA. They're the well-known one in Dallas. Found a doula. I love her to this day.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I know she's been a doula a bunch of times and I was like, she could really keep me grounded. So I've got my husband, my doula, my midwives, Amy and Megan, who are my two primary midwives. We were already at weekly appointments because I was 34 weeks along. I was thinking, okay, this is the best of both worlds. Since I am low risk, they would test my urine every visit.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Blood pressure, check the baby with the Doppler thing. And they would call it baby mapping. They would just feel to see what position the baby was in.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Yeah, on April 21st. I started having contractions in the morning. I texted my doula, had my little contraction timer. It was Easter Sunday. Of course, then I just feel bad for going into labor on Easter. I have to legit be going into labor right now, don't I? So I thought, well, maybe it's not it. In the morning, my contractions were two minutes apart.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I said at 10, 15, like things are getting a lot more intense around here. They're coming very, very frequent. Every two minutes, my doula says, okay, you should call the midwife. The midwife, she says, come in. So I got there. They all showed up. Amy, Megan. There was a midwife in training and then my doula and me and my husband. So it was the four of them and then us.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
When I was texting my doula all that, it was about 1030 and my water broke at 130. It was going pretty quick. I felt it. And I was like, oh my gosh, wow, this is really happening. They looked at the little diaper thing I was wearing, for lack of a better word. They could see the meconium staining. And she was like, there's a little bit of meconium, but it's not worrisome.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
We're just going to have to do a little extra monitoring, which means we're going to take your temperature. And then we're going to have to check his heart rate. And as long as his heart rate is steady and you don't have a temperature, then everything's fine with the meconium. You're not at risk.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I wish I would have done a Google search because once your water breaks, you're at risk for any type of infection. And that's why they were worried about checking for my temperature. This is 1.30 in the afternoon on April 21st. I labored all day, all night. I remember I got a little bit of sleep in between random contractions.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
She told me if they're coming any more than every five minutes, they're not dilating you at all. It's really just having contractions for the sake of having them. So that was pretty annoying because mine were all very intense. She was like, I can't for the life of me figure out why you're not progressing. Let me check you and see where you're at.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And so she went in there and felt, she said it was a band of scar tissue. That's what it felt like. Previously, I had had an abnormal pap and they had done one of those leap procedures. So she manually broke that scar tissue. I'm not on any type of pain help at all. Because she felt like it was blocking? Yeah, like it was stopping my cervix from dilating further.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I was just in between contractions, so I was already blind with pain. I don't even know what time this whole scar tissue thing happened. It could have been that night, could have been the next morning.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
No, I think it was just once we get that scar tissue broken, then you'll be able to dilate and then you'll have your baby. So I'm thinking, let's freaking do it. I can't explain to you how exhausted I was. Physically, when you're in labor, it's running 18 marathons on your body. But I was actively also like physically working out. I am doing these stairs up and down. I am doing squats.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And when it got to actual birthing time, I just didn't have any more left in me. I was gassed having been in labor since 1030 in the morning. My husband, he had a bad feeling. When I look at these pictures, I can see the fear on my husband's face. We just kept being like, are you sure everything's OK? His heart rate's OK and you don't have a temperature. Everything's fine.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And then it got to a point where I was like, you're ready to push. And I remember I kind of got like a boost of adrenaline, like I could do this. My adrenaline wore off pretty fast because I was pushing, I believe, four plus hours is what someone had told me. I was pushing four plus hours. He sat with the crown of his head out for a long time. So he was in the birth canal for hours.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
I remember at some point in time, somebody said there was meconium dripping out. I just was in so much pain. I couldn't see straight. I don't know what finally scared Amy, but we have a video of the birth. Well, a part of it. And you can see when she gets panicked. I don't know if she finally maybe didn't hear the heart tones.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Later on, my doula was telling me, I don't believe that they were actually hearing the baby's heart tones with the Doppler. I think they were hearing yours. Who was doing these things? I'd say, honestly, it was everybody, because sometimes it was the student. Amy said, stand up. You've got to get your baby out. I sensed this is not good.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Stood up, put my leg up on the side of the tub like Captain Morgan. That's how I gave birth, basically. My husband was beneath me and was going to, like, catch the baby. I don't think he should have been in that position. He's in the tub, soaking wet. She said, you have to get this baby out now. And then she said something along the lines of, like, I'm going to have to help you.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
And she's got a scalpel in her hand. You can see in the video, part of me wishes she would have just given me the episiotomy and helped me get him out or whatever would have stopped the situation from happening. She didn't have access, like I feel like to me or my baby to get in there and help with the scalpel, even if that's what she was going to have to do.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
At the very end of the video, before it goes out, I finally scream like I can't stand on this leg anymore. I was on one leg, obviously cramping everywhere. I need someone here to help get this baby out. And it's not my poor husband. He's never done this before. This is his first birth. If you've been to hundreds or thousands of births, get in and help.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
Not my poor husband, who's probably going to be scarred for life. I think that's when my husband sensed, okay, this isn't right. This isn't good. So he squeezes my belly from the top.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
No, he just kicked in. He just started pushing on the top of my belly as hard as he could. I was pushing and then his head came out and then everybody seemed relief. And then that was when the scalpel went flying. He was covered in meconium and it was dripping out of me. One more push, one more squeeze got him out. I mean, once his head came out, he came out pretty quickly.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
My son ended up being born at 8.55 at night of April 22nd, which was Monday night. 34 hours of labor from my very first contraction to him coming out at around nine o'clock.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
It was 31 hours with the meconium in it. The second it was broke. So that also ups the ante now that I've researched things. They got him out and put him on my chest for just a second. I have a picture where I'm so relieved. This is brutal. It was war, but I've done it. And then they pulled him right off of me. I think her hands were on him in the picture, taking him immediately away.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
He never cried. He was covered in the meconium. They could see it. So they wanted to start suctioning. But immediately they were calling for the ambulance. They took him over to that pretty cabinet with the mirrors and they open it up and they have a little place there where they set him and they started trying to suction him. but the sections weren't working.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
He had so much meconium in his lungs and in his throat, so he didn't have any air. His discharge summary says the transport team was contacted at 2100, but after five minutes of waiting for arrival, the transport team decided to expedite arrival and go to the birthing center using their personal vehicle.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
So the NICU nurses, they were supposed to wait for security, but they went ahead and got in their own car and came over because they knew where the birthing center was. They're angels sent from above because they realize the emergency. And if they would have waited, they wouldn't have made it there in time. He had no respiratory effort and no heart rate when they arrived.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
According to this, he was not alive. They were trying to intubate him. They got him intubated. It says a large amount of meconium suctioned from the tube following intubation. Then it said the heart rate noticed to be rising. Chest compressions were stopped. The total time for chest compressions was two minutes. They were still waiting for the ambulance to arrive.
Something Was Wrong
S23 E12: Tuff
So waiting for another five minutes, the infant stabilized and was transferred to Baylor Universal Medical Center for further management. So the NICU nurses got him stable in the birthing center in their little medical cabinet. He was born at 855 and he didn't get to the hospital until 940. So that was a very long time.
Still My Baby
Welcome to the World, Mike Mike
Tired of the same old political shouty matches and talking points? Looking for thoughtful conversations that go beyond the headlines and help you understand issues that matter? I'm Sarah. And I'm Beth.
Still My Baby
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The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
I just was closing up my house and I threw the kids in the car and drove down there. And by the time I got there, the police, everybody was there. And they're like, you can't come in. It's a crime scene. I'm like, that's one of my best friends. So they're questioning me. And I think I must have said, what did he do to her or something like that? And they're like, who are you talking about?
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
I'm like, oh, my God, calm down. You know, I'm traumatized at this point already. And I said, her husband. And they all look at me. They're like, she's married. And I'm like, she's separated. And then I saw them bring her out and they were still they were working on her. And all I could see was the side of her head like almost gone. And so I'm like, cover her up.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
You know, they're trying to save her life. And I'm like, cover her up. She was such a private person, very modest. You know, and here I'm thinking, oh, my God, we're going to laugh about this in a couple of hours when you get back to your room at the hospital, even after seeing her. You know, you still think, now I'll talk to you in a little while.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And I said to the cop, tell her I'm here, tell her I'm here. And the cop started to say to me, well, I don't think she's going to know.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
We were on the phone. She was getting more upset and more upset. And normally she could just handle her calm. And finally, I could tell she was really upset. And then she started crying. And I said, what happened? And she said, I just, I can't take it anymore. And she said, I just, I told him I was going to go to the attorney. And I said, what did he say? And he said, I'll kill you if you do.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Yeah, he made his own key. And he would sit there in the dark and wait for her to come home. She'd turn the lights on when he'd be sitting there.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
She doesn't go into details.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
I'm pretty good at changing the subject.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
Probably it's weird because it's my brother.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
Because I don't have those feelings with anyone else. But also she brings it up so often.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
I don't know. So like on Wednesday nights, we ride to church together. And so we went to church the other night and- I brought up the time change, and then she was like, oh, it gave me and your brother an extra little bit of time before the kids woke up. God.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
Who lives who? I think Dave has to live to you.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
I can't decide who I want to see... Probably neither, to be honest.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
I just stared out the window and was like, the kids are being really loud. I can't talk right now. That's how bad my responses are getting.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
So a little part of me always just felt like maybe I'm a little jealous.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
I think I've let it go on for over 10 years. Like she's, they've been married for, I think 13 years or something.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
Every conversation. So then I didn't think it was, like, maybe I thought it was normal.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
No. So then I started hanging out with her cousin, and her cousin was like, oh, I hear it all the time.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
Okay. So that's where I just need to know, how do I, like, I feel like I've been in it for so long. How do I throw it out there?
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
No, she says she hates us all because we're putting her on the spot.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
I think you should expect that response any time now.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
Is it fair for me to say something like, it sounds like you're insinuating because it's not like she said, oh, we, you know, we got it on. It's like, oh, we have some extra time and it was so nice. And then we, you know, and it's like, okay.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
It's because then there will be times like I'll bring the kids home or drop them off in the afternoon and she'll say, oh, we just got out of the shower. Good thing you weren't any earlier. Like she always has to make the comment, but it's like she never goes into detail. That's enough detail for me.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
Yeah, I mean, laugh and go on with life.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
My sister-in-law, she can turn any conversation into how her and my brother were intimate. And it's so uncomfortable. How do I tell her to stop?
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
Hey, John. Thanks for taking my call. I just had a question. My sister-in-law, she can turn any conversation into how her and my brother were intimate, and it's so uncomfortable. How do I tell her to stop?
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
You know what? It's so weird. It's really annoying. Okay.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Sister-in-Law Overshares About Her Sex Life
So a little part of me always just felt like maybe I'm a little jealous because I'm a single mom and that's something I've always desired. So I just stuff it down deep. Not with your brother, though. No, definitely not.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
What's up? It's good to talk to you. It's good to talk to you.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Well, I'll just start with my question and we can go from there. My question initially is how can I support my husband's growth while I do my own healing and setting realistic expectations for rebuilding our marriage?
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
We've been married for 15 years, and it's basically been neglect and some emotional and occasional verbal abuse and trying to just figure out how to move forward from there. So I started listening to your show just over a year ago, And in September I turned the music off and I turned the lights on and said, this is actually what's happening in our marriage and I'm not okay with it.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
I do. I have a 13 year old, a 10 year old and a seven year old.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
He didn't. Yeah, I didn't probably do it in the very best way, but I told him I was really wanting separation, and I wrote him a long letter, and we tried to talk about it, but he kind of just ignored the whole thing, and...
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Tried to just do some things better around the house and whatever, and we tried to bring in some other people to help and didn't really get a lot of help and just kind of stayed in our cycle for the last year.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
And I know he's making some efforts toward change, but I'm having a really hard time responding positively because I know what the cycle looks like when I respond positively to what changes he makes.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Yeah. We've been together a long time. Okay.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that whole cycle happen.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Yeah, I feel like in the last year, because I've talked to our eldership and I have a couple of really good friends that we've walked through. And so I've put down some really specific things. But I think the follow through or having like, The backbone to follow through is the hard part that I've struggled with.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Well, because I did ask him to move out or I said I would move out with the kids if he continued to speak to us this way or if he spoke to the kids like he had or to me like that again. And so that stops for a few weeks and then something happens. But I don't just move out when that happens. And we just have another conversation about it.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
I have said that, yeah. So it's cursing, calling names. Great.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Yeah. I spent a lot of years trying this last, uh, probably the last three months has gotten really, really hard. I just kind of have shut down. Um, in a lot of ways, like I'm really having trouble just getting through my days.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm a homeschool mom and like the, there's just never a break.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Yeah. And I feel like I've been making dramatic steps for a year.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Yeah, other than bringing other people into the picture to try to help get us some guidance and direction.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
I don't think so. I think he says he does. But it's really hard for him to submit to any kind of authority.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
I don't know. He knows I'm not going to do anything.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
I've been asking myself that for a couple weeks now for really solidly if I'm done. Okay. And about 90% of me says yes. Okay. I just don't know how.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
I can't support ourselves and I can't support the kids and I don't have a job and I homeschool my kids.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
And I don't want that. I want to make it work.
The Dr. John Delony Show
My Husband Backed Out of Our Threesome
Yeah, I think there's an element to that for sure.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
What's up? Um, jumping right into it. Um, uh, my question, um, I pretty much cut off all contact with my family, including my mom, dad, and my, my two siblings. Yikes. What happened? Oh, um, just enough was enough. Um, most of the way, um, just tired of the hurt and disappointment. Um, And I made that decision about eight years ago as I was going through therapy.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
But my question is, my parents are now 75, and I know their time is coming soon. I dream often that if I didn't reach out and try to heal our relationship, I'm going to regret it. And I still can't pick up the phone every day. And... It's not unforgiveness to what's happened. It's more that my life is so much more peaceful without any of them in it. So I struggle with this.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
It's daily and it's consuming. It's affected my immediate family because of my barriers and fears. But I just can't. The thought of talking to them just makes me physically...
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
nauseous and just I just can't do it yeah so you sound trapped like you can't reach out and call them you've tried you've tried you've stared at that phone and you're starting to that gnawing shadow sense that you can't not call them right because I don't want it to hold because regardless of me not having contact with them they still have the power over me even in this situation well and that's my question to you is you're not fully well yet
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
Um, I don't know. I don't, I mean just the, um, just so hurt and betrayed and neglected and just, um, I'm 53. I should be over this by now.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
The thing is, is that they both come to me with, oh, I'll do whatever it takes to fix this. Let's get a mentor. My dad, my mom is just, she's always, it's been abandonment my whole life. So it's, I mean, it's a pattern. Yeah. But the more he tries to fix it, it's kind of like, well, now you see what it feels like, you know? I mean, my whole life.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
It doesn't. And I know that's the pattern. Yeah, it's a cancer.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
And I can see it. And that's why I reached out because I'm physically affected by it. Of course.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
Yeah. Because it wasn't them directly. It was what they allowed to happen. Either way. Either way. It doesn't... Yeah. I mean, and I just... You're 53. You're 53.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
Oh, my God. Okay. He's, like, amazing.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
They're two older and twins that are just turning 20. But, yes, they're why I'm here every day.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
Um, no, just relocated. So, um, I have one, I have one. Okay. You're on the path.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
So, but how about this communication? Like it's the little things like I haven't talked to my mom since her birthday. I mean, so. Okay.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
But is it normal to just talk to someone twice a year or three times a year? If that's the safest thing you've established, then yeah.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
That makes sense. Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
Right, I'm always thinking this is the time and they're going to say, oh my gosh.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
It's never, and that's why the communication cut because I just feel tired of thinking this was the time and it's never happened.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
And it said... Because that was his capacity, not what he... That's the tools he's got.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
Okay. I have written a letter, but I did send it, which was probably... Well, here's the thing.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
No, no. And holding on to my copies and all my notes on the whole everything over all the years, it wasn't the acts or the things. It was the emotional... instability where you can't get that.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
Nothing. No, no. You made it very clear. I think the movie scenario is the best thing I think I've heard. And even in all my years of therapy, that is, um, my expectation is my expectation. I can't expect someone else to live up to that. Especially when they don't even know what my expectations are.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Being a Mom Isn’t What I Thought It’d Be
Quit. How do you move forward or how do you show forgiveness? I know forgiveness is internal, but without feeling like they won. I feel like if I let my guard down, then he won.
The Glenn Beck Program
What Trump MUST Say in His First Address to Congress | Guest: Carol Roth | 3/4/25
No, I have not.
The Glenn Beck Program
What Trump MUST Say in His First Address to Congress | Guest: Carol Roth | 3/4/25
First of all, I'm in love with the packaging. Right? Isn't that crazy?
The Glenn Beck Program
What Trump MUST Say in His First Address to Congress | Guest: Carol Roth | 3/4/25
You're lying. These aren't bamboo. This cannot be bamboo.
The Glenn Beck Program
What Trump MUST Say in His First Address to Congress | Guest: Carol Roth | 3/4/25
No, no, nothing like that.
The Glenn Beck Program
What Trump MUST Say in His First Address to Congress | Guest: Carol Roth | 3/4/25
Hi, Glenn. What I'd like Donald Trump to address is something that Carol Roth and you were talking about with inflation. There are Americans out there that they're rich. There's Americans out there that are middle class and you've got your poor. And somewhere in between the gold standard and the dollar going away, there are going to be millions of Americans who are going to drop in the cracks.
The Glenn Beck Program
What Trump MUST Say in His First Address to Congress | Guest: Carol Roth | 3/4/25
And we're going to be left penniless because there's a lot of us that have no savings because of what Biden did.
The Glenn Beck Program
What Trump MUST Say in His First Address to Congress | Guest: Carol Roth | 3/4/25
And there's no way for us to invest in gold.
The Glenn Beck Program
What Trump MUST Say in His First Address to Congress | Guest: Carol Roth | 3/4/25
It's a small town. It's called Rock Mart. It's growing. But, you know, I'm 59 years old, blind and I'm a diabetic. So all of my money goes to my medical expenses.
The Magnus Archives
The Magnus Protocol 32 - Restructuring
Hier sind Laura und Sarah von 15% unserem neuen True Crime Podcast. Dort behandeln wir jeden Mittwoch einen Fall, in dem eine Frau zur Mörderin wurde und befassen uns mit der Frage nach dem Warum.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I have four daughters, and thank you for sharing your story. It touched me really deeply and terrified me with the statistic that you shared that one in three women experience sexual violence. I have a very open relationship with my girls, but it definitely prompted me to sit down with each of them and have a— How old are your girls? 11, 14, 18, and 19. Mm-hmm.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And I sat down with each of them and had a conversation. After reading the tale? After reading the tale. This is Amy's story made me sit down with my girls. And at different levels, shared your story with them and talked to them about how this happens and that people can be groomers. And as we had the conversation, they looked at me and said, well, that would never happen.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I would never let that happen. And I thought, okay, this is where I'm stuck. And this is where I ask you, what would the safety valve have been? What would you have wished that you had had that could have been your trigger to be safe or that someone could have said to you? Because here are my girls thinking this can't happen to them. This would never happen. I'm too smart for that.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
But it sounds like you were also and you had loving parents like I see myself. So I'm curious what your reaction would be.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
Well, okay, so I'm 65 years old. I only have $41,000 in retirement. Sue, I'm having a real problem with your phone.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
Okay. So I fell for the lovely money trap of taking out a lot of student loans and And I had 85,000 in my name and 50 were through parents plus loans through my parents. Now I did tell my parents, of course I would help them pay off whatever they put into their name. Um, so I've been working really hard for the past eight years and I paid off all of the student loans that were in my name.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
Um, so I have no debt legally in my name. Um, But when I went to tell my parents about it, like, hey, I know I've been throwing money at you guys for this every month, but I'm really going to start to focus on it. They kind of told me that they combined my loans and my siblings' Parent PLUS loans that they took out for them into one big student loans pot.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
So I was kind of shocked that they said that because I've been paying towards it. And instead of paying towards mine, I've kind of been paying towards everybody's.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
And at a point where like, I don't know what to do. You did not make an obligation. Okay.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
I've paid almost the full amount of it, like the four interest. I've been giving them $1,000 a month for like eight, almost eight years.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
They were at like 7% to 8% per loan, and it was two different loans.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
I know it's coming pretty close, which is why I mentioned it.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
They kind of just like dropped the bombshell, like, oh, well, this happened, you know, like to make the payment slower.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
Yeah, that's pretty much the exact scenario of, My siblings are not being able to pay theirs right now.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
I think it's going to be a tough conversation.
The Ramsey Show
Go Slow: Never Invest in What You Don’t Understand
Only because they've done a lot of other things for me, you know?
The Ramsey Show
Building Wealth Happens One Baby Step at a Time
And I will also add our mortgage. I've calculated out that once our kids are out of daycare that we're going to increase our mortgage payments, and I should have it paid off the year my oldest goes to college.
The Ramsey Show
Building Wealth Happens One Baby Step at a Time
Hi, thanks for taking my call. You bet. What's going on? So my question is, how much should I be contributing to my kids by 29? I know there's no magic number of what college is going to cost for them. But is there a point of, you know, you get $100,000 in there, should you be putting it in a high-yield savings account instead, just in case? Sure.
The Ramsey Show
Building Wealth Happens One Baby Step at a Time
So there's six and three. Okay. And my six-year-old, we have $15,000. sitting in his account at this point.
The Ramsey Show
Building Wealth Happens One Baby Step at a Time
Uh, and my three year old, uh, six uh,
The Ramsey Show
Attack Your Debt Instead of Letting It Attack You
I work in customer service at a chemical company. Okay. Excellent. Cool.
The Ramsey Show
Attack Your Debt Instead of Letting It Attack You
Yeah, we paid down about $4,000. She had $4,000 in credit card debt when I had her. Yeah. We got that taken care of before we got married and then did Financial Peace University.
The Ramsey Show
Attack Your Debt Instead of Letting It Attack You
financial literacy down in cincinnati for a couple years so i was familiar with with your books because the uh one of the local banks supplied us with a bunch of supplies from the financial peace stuff that i was teaching to eighth graders so i was familiar with it okay very then you said maybe i should do it yeah that would be cool yeah so sarah when when he comes in you go okay this is how we're gonna do this what'd you say
The Ramsey Show
Attack Your Debt Instead of Letting It Attack You
You know what? That's a good combo. It really is. That's legit. And we came back after the first class and she cut up the credit cards and that was it. Done. She ran business.
The Ramsey Show
Attack Your Debt Instead of Letting It Attack You
So I grew up, my dad has the same rake that he had before I was born. So for me, the money part of the problem wasn't an issue. I think there was just a lot of pressure from friends and family, not even intentionally in a bad way. But just like, oh, she does home health, like you need a nicer car, like just take out a loan. So just fighting that kind of stuff was difficult.
The Ramsey Show
Attack Your Debt Instead of Letting It Attack You
Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
Yes, hello. How are you guys doing?
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
Okay, now, until 48 hours ago, I felt okay about my situation. Then I started watching your program on YouTube, and now I'm kind of freaking out. So I want to, like, get some feedback here. Okay, perfect.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
Okay. Now, I've been in a difficult marriage since day one. And in 2012, I filed for divorce. And then to get a peaceful divorce without really any problems, I had to give up mainly everything. All I got was a car, $10,000, and child support. I had to give up everything else. Um, my father helped me and I was able to get a house and everything moved on. Okay.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
But under pressure, we kind of got back together. Um, we stayed together for like maybe four years or so things were going okay. So we decided to get married. Remarried.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
Okay. And then during that time, my husband was paying the bills on his house because he did not sell his house. And I was paying all the bills on this house I'm living in. Now, when he sold his house, he started paying the bills on this house.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
Now, after we got married, things got worse again, like, and it's not working out. So I'm going to file for divorce again. And my kids now graduated, they have their own lives. So I feel it's going to be easier to get a divorce. The same thing here. He said, if you go to court, I'm going to fight you over the house because it's in my name, and I'm going to make everything difficult.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
So I decided, guess what? Let's just get a divorce. I don't want anything from you, and I'll just keep my stuff. I forgot to say something. When we got back together, our finances stayed separate. Like we no longer have the same bank account or anything. We're totally separate.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
No, his name is not on the home.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
Now, my question is, now, my plan was, now, I'm going to keep the house.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
And I have $100,000 in the bank. Okay. So I had it in a CD. Okay. But I got some advice from the bank and they said you can invest it in the market and it can get you like money and stuff. So I was wondering whether I will be able to kind of be independent on my own because he's the one who brings most of the money, not me.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
Yes. I'm a teacher. I have a master's degree. I'm a teacher.
The Ramsey Show
The Road to Financial Freedom Begins With Hard Choices
Should I cut on everything as long as I have a mortgage, or can I spend money, for example, go get my hair done?
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
All the beds, the couches, the kitchen table, it includes everything in the house. I had to get something, so this is how I did it.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Yes. Okay. It's $5,229 total to pay it off.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
I have... basically that's all the debts is the furniture bill and the credit cards. And then my stupid butt got some payday loans. I'm going to work on the, what do you own the payday loans? $2,400 total, $1,320 a month.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Hi, yes, sir. I'm 56 years old, and first of all, thank you for taking my call. You bet. I'm 56 years old, and I have four grandchildren that I am now raising. Oh, my. I was in a perfectly good situation before I got the kids. I had money in the bank. I was working for an airline, and I was doing really well. And I got the call, either come and get the kids or they're going to state.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Oh, no. Needless to say, I came back and I had to spend everything I had. Yeah. And I took the kids home.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
got a place as quick as i could because i i was i gave up everything to travel my husband passed away my husband i mean my mom passed away so it was like it was only me you know so here i'm gonna live my life and uh so i had to come back and i had to try to get a home i had to try to get the furniture i had to try to get
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
A lot. Walk us through that. I went from having $63,000 in the bank and was going to put more, you know, as I was traveling. But all that's gone because I had to get a lawyer. I had to get the house. I had to get furniture. I had, you know, and it was just, I spend it all. I get it. It's okay.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
i live in um georgia now um and when they called me i was in paris paris france paris france yeah but i was traveling yeah i didn't live anywhere she didn't have a home got you okay i was confused about that so now you're in atlanta how old are these kids these kids the youngest is six
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
um then there's eight-year-old identical twin boys and then a 12-year-old little girl okay okay she's got a ways to go now do you have full custody of them now and all that's settled so yes all that's settled okay all right and now it's all on me so i'm mama you know basically what are you doing for work you're not doing the travel agent thing anymore No, I can't.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
I was working with a local company and then they let me go. So I went from having around $4,300 in income down, I mean from $6,500 having income down to $4,300. And this is where I lost it. This is where I'm like losing everything because I don't have enough.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
I'm pet sitting. I'm doing pet sitting. I go to people's houses and pet sit. The reason I don't do a regular 9-to-5 type job is these kids are special needs. Oh, okay. Yes.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Yes, that is the reason why I lost my job. Okay.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Yeah. No other family. It's just me.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Four. Okay. They were born on drugs.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
A lot of medical and a lot of emotional behavioral.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Yes, that. Well, they do get Medicaid. Thank goodness for that. You know, that does help. But most of the money now, since I had to get a mortgage, it goes to the mortgage and I had to get, you know, the mortgage right now is off the chain. So what is it? What is the mortgage? I do a 6.25% now. And my mortgage is $1,748 a month. That's most of it right there. And is it a house?
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
That's just the mortgage. Yes, it is a house. Okay.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Actually, I'm in, like, southwest area of Georgia.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
I am, yes. I am like near Albany.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
It's worth $235,000 and I owe $217,000.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Credit card debt, I got several of those. All of them together is around $6,100. I pay $385 a month. Okay. Furniture bills, I pay $847 a month.
The Ramsey Show
Math Is Important but Behavior Change Is What Matters
Yeah, it's another year on it. You can't get out of it? I don't know how.
The Ramsey Show
Stop Letting Excuses Steal Your Wealth
Hi, guys. Thank you so much for having on. So my parents opened up a credit card for me when I was younger in my name. So right now, the card has about $18,000 in debt. And I want to know what's the best way to go about paying it off. They've already agreed to...
The Ramsey Show
Stop Letting Excuses Steal Your Wealth
uh in november we had a trip um where they put about five thousand dollars in charges and then it's been open since i think i was 16 so i can't you know exactly point out who has what but i pay off yeah i pay off um every month like what i put on obviously i've stopped now just because we're trying to pay it off so there's no more charges going on to it but i want to know what's
The Ramsey Show
Stop Letting Excuses Steal Your Wealth
the best they've agreed to pay it off so they've put money on it but it's just 18 it just seems so huge to me who's the primary on it are you the primary and they're the cosigner or who's in charge of it My mom is a primary.
The Ramsey Show
Stop Letting Excuses Steal Your Wealth
Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll definitely do that. I just have one more question. I am worried about my credit. So when they take me off the card, will my credit be impacted? I don't want it to go down.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Hi, how's it going? Good.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Oh, thank you for taking my call. I prayed and God put you guys. I'm like, I'm just going to go to the top. I'm a pastor's kid here.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Yeah, I didn't know. I'm like, do I go to my dad, my brother, my mom? No, I'm just going to go straight to the top about money and call them. So thank you for taking my call.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
All right, I'll be fast.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
I just got through a pretty major health crisis that could have killed me. Major surgery. I think we stopped counting it. 17 hospital stays last year. Oh, my goodness, Julie. And then I had complications and was admitted four more times. Okay. The problem is my parents have taken on some of the medical debt, and we had to move in with them while this has been going on. Now we owe them $50,000.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
I don't know, about 16 months ago, we decided to do the...
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
financial piece you know the Dave Ramsey program and which I refused to do because you're running so much of my debt I didn't want to do it I'm like no it's dad telling you what to do but we paid off almost 28,000 already right and medical debt so it works and we have our thousand um in our checking account and we're doing snowball how much is left now
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
So now all that's left is my mom and dad put $50,000 on like 6% credit cards, and they're coming up to expire and go to 30%. They're afraid they're going to lose their house.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
And it was partially dental and cars. It was a little bit of... cars dental and medical those three things and my dad swoops in and helps big heart you know driving me to appointments and my husband's working just a lot of um a lot of love but we all agree we made a terrible mistake we should never combined it um and now here we are and we my husband um
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
We've been married 25 years, and he has never been sick, never been to the doctor, and he works a very, very dangerous job. There's been two deaths out at the plant in the last six months, and he fell with extremely high blood pressure and was put on temporary disability for six weeks. So he's struggling with his health, and my question to you is, this is where the rift is with my parents.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
He doesn't know why we can't move out, continue Dave Ramsey, which we have a track record of doing it, and be on our own. It's a lot better for him with the rotating graveyard to have a quiet, dark room. Right now we're in a small house, one little noise.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
My dad's like, if you move out, you're not going to be able to do anything. He wants us to do his plan. I want to do Dave's plan.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
My dad wants us to stay until the debt's paid back to him.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
We can. We can afford both.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Yeah, I'm 47, my husband's 51, and my husband's telling my father we have a meeting tomorrow. So this call is perfect timing. They don't talk about it.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Yeah, I think I'm part of the problem, maybe, because I'm so concerned about my parents. And I think my dad's living in the what-ifs. Well, COVID happened. It's not his life.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Well, my fear is because my husband, his blood pressure is because of the stress of the job. Just imagine an oil rig that I'd land. It's so dangerous.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Oh, I can take it.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
I don't want to lose my husband.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Yeah, he's here right now. He is? Yeah, you want to say hi to Jake?
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Hi, I'm excited to talk to my money heroes. How are you?
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
So my husband and I are in our forties and we're doing great for ourselves. We're maxing out 401ks and IRAs and we're paying off the house with double payments and we're kind of deciding, trying to decide what to do going forward. You know, once everything's paid off and exploring some options to help our adult kids.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
So one of the things that we thought about was encouraging them to save even more for themselves. And offering them the possibility of maybe, you know, if they put forth like a third of their Roth Mac for a year, would we double that, you know, and give them the other two thirds? And so I guess I just wanted to find out what you guys thought about that.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
They are 23 and 24.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Well, there's one that's doing a little better than the other. Employment wise, you know, money wise, and they're still learning for sure.
The Ramsey Show
You Have to Know Where You Are Financially to Know Where You're Going
Yeah, I do think that both of them would go do that if that was the intention, yes.
The Ramsey Show
Money Is a Tool To Create a Life You Love
So I have some guilt and pride around using child support money. So I was in an abusive relationship, and by the grace of God, I was able to leave when my son was about three weeks old. I met my now husband when my son was six months old, and he's now 12. Um, my husband and I had sat and talked and said, we don't want any money. We don't want anything. We want nothing to do with him.
The Ramsey Show
Money Is a Tool To Create a Life You Love
Well, the judge made the decision that it's not our choice and it's not our money. Um, it's for our son. So we were just putting all that money in an account. Um, we had some debt and, um, in 2021 I lost my job and we needed four walls. So we dipped into that account. And as of January of 2025, we are officially done with Baby Step 2. We are completely debt free. Oh, congratulations. Thank you.
The Ramsey Show
Money Is a Tool To Create a Life You Love
It's very exciting. I'm really happy to be there. But I have about $4,000 from that child support money that we said we'd never use. And I'm wondering if I should just pay it back like a debt and just keep going like if we were on Baby Step 2 or... the connotation of the child support money in the first place just kills me. And I don't know what to do about it.
The Ramsey Show
Money Is a Tool To Create a Life You Love
It was, originally it was until he was 18 and it was supposed to be $430. The only money that I've actually seen from that is the COVID money. I was able to get his COVID check. I didn't know that it was coming. My husband adopted our son when he was four years old, everything finalized. So that's when the child support stopped.
The Ramsey Show
Money Is a Tool To Create a Life You Love
But there's so much arrears that, I mean, I will still randomly get, like, a $12 check. Okay, so it's over, essentially.
The Ramsey Show
Money Is a Tool To Create a Life You Love
That's what we were thinking. Just a car or something like that. Like I said, my husband's been around since my son was six months old. So my son doesn't know. He doesn't know any different as of right now. And eventually we're going to tell him. I mean, we have to tell him, but we're just not there yet. He's not
The Ramsey Show
Money Is a Tool To Create a Life You Love
Yeah, he's definitely blessed. My husband is literally a godsend, and he took him on like his own. And like I said, nobody knows. There's a couple people like family knows, but he doesn't know.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
Hi, how's it going? Thank you for taking my call. Absolutely. So basically, my issue is I am trying to figure out how we can budget our finances because my husband is a blue-collar worker on a commission-based... pay scale and we don't have consistent, um, um, income per year, but last year he made 161,000 the year before that he made 140,000 and the year before that he made 180,000.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
So I would say an average of 160,000 over the last three years. And we're looking into doing the baby steps and snowballing all of this fun stuff. But right now, currently, with our mortgage at $4,120, we also have a consolidation loan. Health insurance is $900 a month because through his work it's $1,300. And the credit card debt totals $127,000. Goodness gracious.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
What did you guys spend on these cards? I don't know. Well, it's been a combination of, like, don't hurt me, but I put my husband's motorcycle on my card because we were trying to get the points. I know that's the worst answer you could possibly want to hear, but so that's $18,000, and we have just multiple bills. He has...
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
$72,000 in credit card debt, and I have, not including that motorcycle, it's like $34,000. I put groceries on it. I've put property taxes on it because our personal property taxes... So where is your actual income going if you're using the card to fund your life?
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
Well, I'm guessing it's like... closer to 13 because that's the average though. That's the problem. Some months we'll have fantastic months and some months we don't. So like for instance if he has a bad couple of weeks or if he took vacation then he gets his hourly pay.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
Why is that motorcycle not sold? We went nowhere.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
Well, right. Yeah. Where is this motorcycle? Where is it? It's in the garage.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
There it is. Right. Well, I've run out of children to sell, but I definitely would like to do the snowball. But is there a way to negotiate with the creditors to help with the interest rate? I don't want to run away from this debt.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
I did. I did. We need to cut up all of our cards. I know. But I'm looking forward from here if we do all of these things. I just want to see. Sure. Call them. We could be paying for 120 years.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
Are you underwater on it? I don't know. I have not checked the resale value of it at this point.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
Well, this could be a totally different issue, too. He works really hard, and he doesn't... I think he works too hard to be this broke.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
I know. And I don't want to take something that he loves so much. He absolutely loves it. He's not going to love anything.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
He is on board. I am the type of person, I'm a people pleaser and I want him to be happy. And I'm equating his happiness with his motorcycle.
The Ramsey Show
The Baby Steps Break You out of the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Cycle
Yeah. So thank you for taking my call. I have been an FPU coach for the last few years and my sister opened up to me about her financial struggles last year and I've been helping her work through the baby steps. She's paid about 10 K off now and has 50 still to go. But today she was served with papers being sued by one of the banks for not paying off her balance. So yeah,
The Ramsey Show
The Baby Steps Break You out of the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Cycle
I assume nothing really has changed. We're still going to have to negotiate with them, settle eventually, but wanted to get y'all's advice before I pass it along to her.
The Ramsey Show
The Baby Steps Break You out of the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Cycle
Yeah, so by the time she came to me, she had already stopped paying her minimum payments, so we assumed that one was going to go to collections, and we figured we would settle with the collections company, and then that's where she... We didn't have at the time the wiggle room in her budget to pay the minimum payment that they wanted her to.
The Ramsey Show
The Baby Steps Break You out of the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Cycle
So now that's where they're coming to her and requesting that full sum again.
The Ramsey Show
The Baby Steps Break You out of the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Cycle
About $22,000. What kind of debt? Credit card.
The Ramsey Show
The Baby Steps Break You out of the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Cycle
The $22,000 is one credit card, one lender. She does have a debt consolidation loan, and then she has two other credit cards.
The Ramsey Show
The Baby Steps Break You out of the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Cycle
she has three that have gone to collections, including that one, the credit card.
The Ramsey Show
The Baby Steps Break You out of the Paycheck-to-Paycheck Cycle
Right. Does she need to lawyer up at this point or can she settle that herself?
The Ramsey Show
You Can Change Your Life TODAY!
Hey, thanks for having me on. So my divorce finalized about three years ago. About a year ago, started doing a calc report recalculation, and it finally just wrapped up. But during that process, my lawyer suggested that instead of setting up college funds for my kids because of
The Ramsey Show
You Can Change Your Life TODAY!
The dishonesty displayed by my ex-husband about his finances that I set up basically brokerage accounts for my girls and in my head in Markham as college funds so that when the time comes to pay for college, he, my ex can't say, well, Sarah has already saved money for college. I shouldn't have to contribute as much.
The Ramsey Show
You Can Change Your Life TODAY!
Is there a disadvantage or advantage in doing it that way versus a traditional college fund?
The Ramsey Show
You Can Change Your Life TODAY!
Well, so it would be just earmarked in my head as their college fund. Sure. Because what my lawyers fear was that let's say both of my girls go to school and for both of them, it'll cost $100,000, right? $100,000 each. And they're young. So if I start saving the money now, by the time they get to college, I may have... $75,000 for each of them. So then there's only $25,000 left to cover.
The Ramsey Show
You Can Change Your Life TODAY!
My ex could potentially say in the future, well, if Sarah's already paid $75,000 or saved up that much, I should only have to pay half of what's left. So then he would only contribute $12,500, give or take.
The Ramsey Show
You Can Change Your Life TODAY!
No, it totally does. And it makes a lot of sense. And I, throughout this whole process have basically used Dave's phrase of, this is my stupid tax. And maybe this is just the continuation of my stupid tax and the stupid tax. I mean,
The Ramsey Show
You Can Change Your Life TODAY!
Yeah, I hadn't thought about the non-quantifiable aspect of it. I was more thinking about tax implications and obviously having him pay a portion, a reasonable portion. But looking at it from the non-quantifiable part, it definitely sways the decision of, I'm going to keep my side of the street clean.
The Ramsey Show
You Can Change Your Life TODAY!
Yeah. And I appreciate that also, like, a little other outside of this, but, like, I do a lot of home repair myself because I can't afford to pay somebody. And my girls will tell people, my mommy can fix things. My mommy can build things. And I, yes.
The Ramsey Show
Smart Money Decisions Often Mean Sacrificing Today for Tomorrow
Hi, I'm well, thanks. How are you?
The Ramsey Show
Smart Money Decisions Often Mean Sacrificing Today for Tomorrow
So my husband and I make a very good living combined and savings is important to both of us for our children's future, for our own retirement. But we seem to have different philosophies, I think, about how we enjoy the fruits of our labors as well. My husband feels like we could always be saving more, but I like the finer things. Yeah, me too.
The Ramsey Show
Smart Money Decisions Often Mean Sacrificing Today for Tomorrow
And I want to buy the nice clothes while they still fit. So I guess what's your advice as far as finding a middle ground? Is it okay to splurge a bit on vacations and nicer things in our youth?
The Ramsey Show
Smart Money Decisions Often Mean Sacrificing Today for Tomorrow
Yes. Well, we have our mortgage, but that's it.
The Ramsey Show
Smart Money Decisions Often Mean Sacrificing Today for Tomorrow
We've got about $500,000 combined between our children's. Well, I'm in sales, so it fluctuates between $300 and $350 a year. Okay.
The Ramsey Show
Smart Money Decisions Often Mean Sacrificing Today for Tomorrow
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Hi. So happy to see you again. And thank you for everything you gave to Funnel Hacking Live and everything. I was so glad to come. And it was a special moment. So moving. So fun. Thank you. And also a couple of days ago when I was So overwhelmed and with emotions. I watched the OFA Evolution and the old one, when you talk about all your bumps and everything. So helping, actually.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
And, you know, Dante, you said what helps, what gives. Well, personally, what I love in what you do. Sorry, I moved it. Russell, you are authentic too. So we can relate to you dare to be yourself. So that was really helping for me to not to keep the mask and try to be very professional, but also to dare to be oneself. Very helping.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
I wanted to ask you a question about how to... I've been following you since 2020. I've... worked a lot of things you give. And I'm still following the track of results first. So it took me time to get the results and to be sure to have great testimonials. und den Weg und alles, um neue Klienten zu haben, um die Dinge sehr einfach zu machen.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Und ich würde alles markieren und genau wissen, was es bringt, weil ich es vorher nicht genau wusste. Es hat mich also einige Zeit gedauert. Und du hast gesagt in der Funnel, dass wir die Brücke beenden müssen und alle Brücke stoppen, auch deine Brücke. Es ist nicht einfach. Und ich habe bemerkt, dass es schwierig für mich ist, zu viel zu verkaufen. Ich versuche es wirklich nicht.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Ich bin eher zufrieden, wenn ich nur einer Person spreche. Und ich erzähle ihr genau, was sie braucht. Weil mit dem Skript hörst du ihre Probleme und weißt, was in deiner Offer, welche Stocks du für sie machen kannst. Genau an dieser Zeit. Also, wenn ich eine Präsentation zu viel mache, ist es schwierig für mich, es in einer Zeit zu machen.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Also habe ich versucht, aber ich saboteiere und mache es nicht sehr klar. So, I wanted to, I was wondering if it was okay and if you could help me to do that.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
If I do two steps, for example, if in the first part I do the demonstration and everything, the four stories, backstory and everything, and then in a second time I meet them and I close or I make them a video cell where there is the stack recorded already. Because when I do it live, I take very much time. It takes me two or three hours this day.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
And I feel like here now I'm going to talk to them and I'm going to try to make them buy and I lose the thing. If you have advice on that and if it's okay if I could respect the webinar and everything but do it in another way.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Es war früher 4.000 Euro, jetzt mache ich nur den ersten Schritt. Es wird also 500 oder 1.000 Euro sein. Und dann kommen sie. Weil wenn sie hier sind und mit mir gearbeitet haben, ist es einfach, ich sage einfach, willst du weitergehen? Sie sagen ja und es ist okay. Es ist später einfach. Aber der erste Schritt war kompliziert.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
No, it took me less, but I was just teaching very much and then... You're breaking the rules of the perfect webinar.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
No, I was teaching through the stories, but...
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Aber ich werde es suchen. Ich werde es versuchen zu sehen.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Also müssen sie auch Französisch sprechen. Okay.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
You know what I mean? What about, I mean, you, recently you've been using yourself by putting a video of one of the previous stuff you've done inside of, for example, online, selling online or the FHL Encore. Maybe I could do that. I mean, Es ist, wenn ich mit ihnen bin. Ich will nur mit ihnen sein. Aber es ist okay, dass ich meine Stärkung mache, wenn es nur einer ist und ich mit ihnen spreche.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Oder wenn es vorgelesen wird, vielleicht.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Okay, I'm going to be able to master the time too.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Great, thank you so much.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Silent Funnel Killer That Nobody Warned You About | #Sales - Ep. 30
Wow.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
When I have a takeaway, then I realize what I was doing was very complicated, much more than it should have been. So, for example, here, see, I mix things and I realize it can be caused to fear. And when I'm in a beautiful state, I have more clarity and then I can see what's the problem. So, for example, I've realized here the one thing was I was afraid to get some no's and to get rejection.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
So, for example, I realized that if I stop seeking yeses, but taking the 1% yes, so the 99% noes, this would be better. Then I realized what I have to do, and I have to go seek the noes, for example, on the... Webinar, 60 seconds, perfect webinar on the media and everything. Okay. So I was wondering, do you have any tips about how to...
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
not be so afraid how to go further, how to keep the, the, the mindset because from what you do or from what you've seen, what are the things that help to realize we're not doing the things properly and we complicate even though we think we don't. Do you have any tips on that?
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
Yeah, I have to prioritize on the presentation for now and not leave it until it's really perfectly done because I'm a teacher. I've been a teacher and a trainer instructor, so I can speak easily. So but this is not the same. This is not selling and this is not exactly the same. So I've realized that the more I do it and I realize there are a lot of things I didn't do, actually.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
So, yeah, I'm going to do that and stay on the presentation.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
Yeah. I do it every week for, I've done it for 10 weeks in a row. I've switched things and now it's better and better. But I've realized that actually before I go for selling, I'm a bit afraid. Yeah. And that either people couldn't afford it and I would be sad they couldn't afford it and they would be frustrated. Either they would say no.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
So I've just identified this and I'm doing it again and again. And I've just settled a...
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
52 uh weeks uh challenge so i have to do it every every week just like uh posting every day and it's easier when i do that because the challenge is just i do it and i improve it uh and even even if it's not perfect i show it anyway and some people can buy on the way so this is uh helping me when i give myself a challenge actually yeah very cool thank you so much for everything
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
Thank you.
The Russell Brunson Show
The Simple Shift That Took Me Out of Stress Mode and Into Sales Mode | #Success - Ep. 36
Hi, Russell. Hi, Jessie. What's up, Sarah? Great to see you again. Good. Happy to see you. I have a question. It's more a mindset question, actually. I've realized, for example, that sometimes I complicate things. And when I find answers, even, of course, in your contents, but questions,
The Russell Brunson Show
From Stuck to Scaling: Transformative Advice for Entrepreneurs
Loud and clear. Yeah, cool. I wanted to ask you a kind of strategy mindset question actually. It was very hard for me to find how to prepare a MIVGI and to do all that from a high ticket offer. And I realized one thing that I was overestimating my clients. It took them more time than I thought it would take. So they would stay anyway. They would stay with me two or three years.
The Russell Brunson Show
From Stuck to Scaling: Transformative Advice for Entrepreneurs
Und tatsächlich erneuere ich alles jedes Jahr, sodass sie glücklich bleiben. Es ist eine Art natürlicher Weiterlauf, aber ich möchte es vielleicht organisieren. Ich habe versucht, es mit Zertifikationen zu organisieren und zwei oder drei Zertifikationen, die ihnen einen Grund geben, zu bleiben.
The Russell Brunson Show
From Stuck to Scaling: Transformative Advice for Entrepreneurs
And I realized also that I kind of was... When I tried to make a MIVGI and to make a trial, it's hard for me to... It's a very small community and a very small group for now. So this is weird for me to have someone coming and then maybe leaving. I don't know how to... What's the price point of your community? It's almost 5,000 euros a year.
The Russell Brunson Show
From Stuck to Scaling: Transformative Advice for Entrepreneurs
And these are for teachers who are either trying to leave or to get better at what they do, thinking that one day they might leave and use that also.
The Russell Brunson Show
From Stuck to Scaling: Transformative Advice for Entrepreneurs
Ja, es wäre ein Schaden. Ich meine, wir haben eine tolle Gemeinschaft. Sie kommen, sie sagen, ich begrüße sie einfach und ich bleibe mit ihnen. Und es ist sehr persönlich. Also, wenn ich das tun muss, werde ich überwältigt von den Leuten, die kommen und draußen gehen. Also, äh, ja, ich habe ja. Was, wenn du einen niedrigeren Niveau deiner Gemeinschaft erschaffen hättest?
The Russell Brunson Show
From Stuck to Scaling: Transformative Advice for Entrepreneurs
Du hast zwei Optionen.
The Russell Brunson Show
From Stuck to Scaling: Transformative Advice for Entrepreneurs
Okay, okay. I think I'm gonna leave it and I'm gonna see that the thing is the certification will help me to get my certificated people to go and then be my coach actually. So I can confide them to my people because I'm very exigent and I want them to be very good in what they do. Okay, I'll do that. I'll keep on doing that. Okay, thank you so much.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yeah. I'd say my grandma was alive. I feel like it would have gone a little bit differently, but with her being passed, I agree with you. I think that this was just information a, we weren't looking for and B we really didn't need, I guess it's kind of, I'm just the weird type of person to think about the fact that, you know, I definitely, I don't know what half my genetics are.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
So like anything medically that could potentially come up, like, I'm not saying that this matters. I just know like, that's where kind of now that the dust has settled.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yeah, I appreciate that. And I needed to hear that because I've been going back and forth. I really didn't make my mind up yet. But yeah, I think that you're right. And kind of just calling it what it is and not reaching out to at least again, my biological grandfather and yeah, with whatever my dad chooses with my grandpa, that's, that's completely up to him. I agree.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
And hopefully if I just talk to my mom a little bit, make sure she's not putting any pressure on him to tell him, because at this point, really, like you said, all it's going to do is harm. So I think it's best if we all kind of move forward because a week ago, this, you know, it wasn't, or a little over a week ago, this wasn't even a thing. Like we were all just living in doing our thing.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
And we've gone back to that for the most part. It's not like anything has significantly changed. Just kind of checking in on my dad on the mental health side, just making sure because you know, when you hear news like that, it just takes a little bit to fully absorb.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yeah. No, I appreciate that. That's a good perspective because when you're not in it, yeah, that sounds pretty bad when you put it that way, knocking on his door and bugging him. So yeah, I'll definitely cease from doing that and not even put that in the back of my mind and I don't think anybody else is either. Definitely.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
We'll investigate and discover a little bit on the, I think you guys can do a lot from the sidelines.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yeah. I mean, they were strangers up until 10 days ago. So we didn't even know they existed.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
So my DNA testing revealed a 60-year-old family secret. And now what?
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
We found out that my father's father, so my grandfather, isn't my real grandfather or his real father.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Drama? We thought it would. It actually didn't. My dad took the news a little bit better, but really why it was such a big deal was that we never would have thought that he wasn't. My grandma and my grandpa were married only for like a year when my dad was born. So infidelity really wasn't a question. So we really didn't think that my dad wouldn't be my grandfather's child.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
So when this came out, there's two other kids too. So my dad is one of three siblings and he might be the only sibling that doesn't truly belong to my grandfather. And we're just finding this out now. And my grandma's now passed away. So we can't really ask her like what happened and how it occurred.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
So I guess my question for you originally, it was going to be, how do I tell my father? My sister and I went back and forth on how to tell him if we should tell him we did end up telling him, which is why I kind of delayed talking with you. But now my question is, is the individual that is my actual grandfather and my dad's dad is alive.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
And he pretty much has said, like, I don't want anything to do with the situation and he won't speak to anybody. Um, so I'm thinking like I have his address. Do I send him a letter and kind of just reach out and ask him some questions and see if he responds or you did reach out already? No, we found his address.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Um, my uncle's pretty good at finding stuff and he was able to find this man's address. He's 90 still living. Uh, he's actually in California. So on the other side of the country from me, he's 90. Yes.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
So we actually didn't reach out to him, nor did he reach out to us. This actually all came about because a random woman from another state reached out to me on Facebook and said, Hey, I think I'm your half aunt. And from that, she's been in contact with that man's son, So he actually had a whole family.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Like he got married, had two kids with another woman and like settled down in California back in the 60s. And then come to find out he has three other children that he had in my state in the East Coast before he went over to California. It's a lot.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
I'm definitely happy to go into all of those details. It's a lot, but I just wanted to- Give me the short version. Short version. A woman reached out, said I'm her half,
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
From there, she starts exposing some information to me that kind of made sense from when this individual, the guy lived in my state.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
So I've been locked out of my testing app for about four or five years. It was my college email. I didn't have access to reset my password. So I actually haven't been into my account. And then this woman just recently did a test and she found
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
me and she was like i don't know who this person is she reached out to me from there it all kind of snowballed because my sister did a different dna testing app uh and she saw she hadn't been in her app for about three years either because once you get your results and you kind of see everything you kind of don't go back and look there really was no reason for us to we didn't have any questions or anything um she saw that there was a half uncle and then somebody with a 28 match which
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
the 28% match is the grandfather. So that's kind of how we put everything together and piece it together. And this woman talked with this guy's son that he had with his wife.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yes. So my biological grandfather had two sons to his current wife. And the one son actually saw me on his DNA testing. And this woman that reached out to me, my half aunt, is who reached out to the son and said, hi, I think I'm your half sister. I believe you have other, you know, family through this. And I just wanted to see like, what, what is going on? Can you talk to your dad?
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Meaning my, my biological grandfather, can you talk to him and ask him, Hey, does he know anything about these two families? Does he know about the other children he has? And the son of my biological grandfather reached out to him and he was like, Those names mean nothing to me. I don't talk about Pennsylvania and that's it. Like he wouldn't speak about it. He's being very shady.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
So my half aunt who reached out to me, she's actually a twin and then it would be my father. So he had three illegitimate children, two married women in the sixties, picked up and moved to California and then had a family.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yeah, it was a lot. It all snowballed pretty quickly, too. I was intrigued.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yeah, I was surprised that this may have never been a topic that you've covered because I feel like I can't be the first person that found this out. But it was a little bit more of a surprise for our family, given the circumstances, because we didn't think that my grandma was, you know, cheating on my grandpa back that far.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yes. So right now my dad's actually getting the DNA testing done for himself so that way he can see it all kind of match up for his own because right now it's just based off of my sister and I's accounts.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yes, because here's the other kicker. So he's one of three. He was the first of his siblings, firstborn. And come high school age, infidelity was common between my grandpa and grandma, which is what led to their divorce. So it really like it took him by surprise. And he's obviously
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
sad that his dad isn't his biological father, but he also said like, this man raised me, he's my dad and he's my dad's 63. So at this point in his, in his life, he's like, if I were your age, you know, 30, you know, young, I might reach out and like try to mend things.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
But he said at this point with my mother past, which my grandmother is passed away, no way of us really figuring out like what happened. So that's why he's been pretty chill about it, but definitely no interest in speaking to his biological father. But I, on the other hand, I'm kind of just curious.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
He apparently he's hard of hearing. So it's not like I can try to call him or talk to him on the phone. I'm obviously not going to hop on a plane and fly across the country either. So I was just kind of curious to, you know, write a letter and just see if he would respond first and just see if he would even be willing to respond.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
And then also just kind of ask him if he'd be willing to tell us what happened. He, according to his, his son, He said that he's a reformed Catholic. He's very religious. He is on the straight and narrow. He got out of the military back when all this happened with my grandma and the other woman. You know, he was sowing his oats. in Pennsylvania after he got out of the military.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
So in his, in his mind, he just had a little bit of fun and then he picked up and moved out West.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yes. And that's what he's, I guess, said growing up, like, Oh, I moved back to my hometown and then I picked up and moved to California. But I guess I would, I would like to kind of confront him and be like, you know, you consider yourself this religious straight and air person, but now these things are coming up and,
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
You know, I would just like to know, like, what was your relationship with my grandmother? You know, was it a long period of time? Could potentially anybody else know? Or just in general, see if he'll respond because he's not being very responsive in general with this news.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
I think my sister is. I think we're both kind of like mad because of how shady he's being with it. It's definitely not bugging my dad as much. My mother is. is a little bit just torn up because my dad's not considering not telling my grandpa. So my non-biological grandfather, my dad doesn't know if he wants to tell his father that this came out. He's still alive. Yes. He's in his eighties.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Cause she thinks he deserves to know. Cause he's like the true victim in this. If he didn't know that she had an affair.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what we said. My mom thinks that he should know. I kind of go back and forth on it.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
I would agree with that. I think that's a little bit of where I'm coming from is I kind of want to poke the bear a little bit with him just because he's being less than cooperative.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
When you put it like that, I mean, yeah, that kind of sounds bad.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
I guess I feel like it's a little different because they were married. They were both married women that had houses. The one actually had another child.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
Yeah, that's true. I mean, he again, and he could easily lie as well because he's 90 years old. Yeah, that's true. So it's really not worth it in the end, especially now. If it's not my father that's wanting to raise me.
The Viall Files
E923 Ask Nick - My Grandma Cheated
I agree. And she is leaving it up to my father. I think she just may be putting a little bit of undue pressure on him to maybe tell him just because.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
My name is Sarah. I am 28 years old and my husband's brother needs an intervention with his addiction. So just looking for help with that.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
So I'm more just looking for help, I guess, knowing my place. So I was just married like a couple of months ago. Okay. And this problem with his brother has been a problem. It was... a concern of ours for our wedding as well. A little backstory.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
I previously, before my husband got out of a relationship with someone who had an addiction to alcohol, it was someone that I thought I was going to marry. So I've kind of dealt with this before. However, it's a little bit different just because this is not technically someone that's in my family. So I'm like, I don't know how to navigate the situation. My husband has asked me, for help.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
He obviously knows my background. I'm having a little bit of a hard time because I feel like a lot of his family enables the situation. And I almost feel like I don't really have a place to say something.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
I've just told him that like it's difficult because I know a lot of the times with addiction, you can't really help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
I haven't really told him though that like I feel like I don't really have a place to
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
Yeah. And it's difficult because I feel like it's,
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
something that is always the elephant in the room when everyone's together like everyone's thinking it no one's saying anything and so I've told my husband that as well that they kind of enable him his brother lives with his parents and he's the only sibling that lives with them anymore and they continue to allow this behavior to happen and allow him to just kind of like not really do anything with his life but
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
don't ever like push him to do anything but what has your husband said about that when you when you addressed it he agrees okay yep and so that's been the concern is he says that he feels like his parents should be the one to initiate it but he feels like they're never going to so me and him have to do something about it okay well
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
He does. He has two other siblings, but his brother is the oldest. He's the second oldest.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
A couple years younger. Everyone's an adult?
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
They're definitely aware of it, but they're also, they kind of just push it to the side. And my husband has said something to his next oldest sibling before, and they just are like, yeah, like it's a problem, but they just kind of like ignore it.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
Yeah. And with my history, it's difficult for me because I feel like I'm beating a dead horse sometimes like when that gets brought up and it's something that I like just want to move on from. I don't really want to like have to keep dwelling on that. So sometimes it's difficult for me to even talk about like how I handled that situation because I just don't want to relive that. Yeah.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
I guess I like the idea of just being the support person, because I feel like maybe I just need to express that to him. Like, I'm willing to support you, but I can't be the one to initiate this.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
He's more just asked for my thoughts and ideas on how we could do this. Because our biggest concern is... But in general, how does that make you feel?
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
I'm capable of doing it. I guess it gives me a little bit of anxiety just because of my history. And I'm also a very non-confrontational person. It makes me, I guess, just a little bit nervous sometimes.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
I would say I probably have some unworked through trauma from my previous relationship, but more so it's just uncomfortable for me because of what I've gone through.
The Viall Files
E863 Ask Nick - My Best Friend’s Affair
Okay. Yeah, I definitely will. Thank you so much.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Good. My name is Sarah. I'm 26 years old and I am struggling to connect with my teenage son.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So he's a teenager. He's in high school. Okay. And actually, he's not biologically my son.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Me and my husband took him and his sister in last year. So there's several layers to why it's difficult for me to connect with him. One being obviously, you know, he's biologically not my son. So I wasn't there to raise him or just build those connections early on. And then two, I've never had brothers. I have two younger biological daughters.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And so I feel like it's easy for me to connect with daughters, but I'm really struggling specifically with my relationship with him for a lot of reasons. And my heart's been hurting for him lately because he's really struggling with the transition of moving into our home and making friends.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Sort of. It's kind of a unique situation. They're actually related to me.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And they had no other options of where to go given their circumstance. The next option was going to be foster care. Okay. And I've always wanted to get into foster care and adopt since I was younger. And it just felt like me and my husband, we talked about it and we thought that that was the right thing to do. And we felt led to do that.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
and so we took them in last year and transition was pretty good you know they're great kids we love them to death and we see them as our kids okay um you know even though they're not biologically ours like when i talk about him his sister i see them as my children and they will forever be part of our family even when they're 18 and they're on their own like those are our kids okay so i'm just struggling there's a lot to learn with just having a teenager how long have they been in the household
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
I would say things with her are a lot easier. I find connecting with her less difficult. And maybe that's because I can relate to her with just some of her, I don't know, just typical teenage girl struggles. I've been there, especially because it wasn't that long ago for me. I think, again, specifically why I'm struggling to connect with him is I didn't have brothers.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
I don't really understand what it's like to be a teenage boy. And there's kind of friction between us because we have such opposite personalities as well. And so I just feel really bad because I know that I could be connecting with him better. And so I'm just seeking advice specifically from you two because you were a teenage boy.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Just what is it that teenage boys look for in their mother figures and like what not to do?
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah, I can touch on that. So again, you asked how I'm doing with his sister. And I would say why I feel like I'm doing better with her also is we're just seeing more growth from her as well. We feel like we've made connection. We made breakthrough with her. She's done complete 180 from when she moved in. She was hiding in her room all the time. Now she's got girlfriends, a boyfriend.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
She's doing much better in school. She's putting herself out there. She has just this growth mindset. And I think Again, why I'm calling is we haven't made that same breakthrough with him. And I'm wondering if that's because of the lack of the connection there and if I'm maybe not understanding how to help them and best support and love him.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
But specifically behavior wise, he hasn't made any friends at school and he struggles with just some coping behaviors that we've tried to talk through. But we're not again, not really seen since he moved in. There hasn't been a ton of growth versus his sister. Uh, there's been a lot of growth and a lot of maturing and we're just kind of feeling stuck specifically me with how to reach him.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So that's kind of the behavioral thing is struggling to make friends. And then also there's, um, an inclination to substances and stuff like that too.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
For sure. Oh, yeah. A lot of that. And and I think me and my husband both recognize why he might be struggling with substances and making friends like it's pretty clear to us those connections and why he's struggling in those areas. However, again, it's more of how do we reach him and how do we help him and support him?
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So part of the equation, too, is they had to move from their previous town, which was more rural, much more small. And we live in the cities and a lot of his access is from his previous location. That is where he gets access because sometimes we do visitations because he has family and older friends there. And in the summer we were bringing him there and that's where he would get access somehow.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And then there's just a fascination with it as well. Just researching ways to get it illegally, researching ways to get it as a minor. So he definitely has this draw to it. And again, me and my husband see it as, you know, those ties and connections to trauma and coping and learn behavior type things.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah. So over the summer, that was actually our first kind of gateway to getting him in the door with therapy because he was extremely resistant. That's another thing that I struggled to connect with him on is he is extremely resistant to growth in general. He's like, the past is the past. Like, I'm fine. You know, I don't have trauma.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And so when he first moved in, I encouraged him and his sister to like my family is really big into therapy. Like we think everybody should go. It's great. You can have a lot of growth, a lot of tools to navigate things in your life. But he was extremely, extremely resistant. The sister was not. I think that's also why she's made a lot more strides in growth and maturity. So that's been tough.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And then over the summer, he got into substances. He got caught. When he came back home, we said, hey, so one of the consequences for doing something you shouldn't is now you have no choice. You're going to go to therapy. So he is right now. But again, it's really hard because... His therapist would say, like, you have to help me to help you.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And it's been a constant theme of him not wanting to acknowledge one, that he has trauma to he's not acknowledging that he has areas that he can grow in. And for me, that's where the disconnect happens. And I don't know how to reach him if he's not willing to learn and grow and mature. And so that's kind of why I'm looking for advice, because I just kind of feel at a loss.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Sorry. I shouldn't have used the word connection. I suppose maybe like parenting style. Sure. Would have been more appropriate because, um, I just feel like I might be pushing him way more when handling these behaviors. So I guess it's less so connection because actually I, He's a little bit more different than I would say the average teenage boy. He's actually pretty attached to being my husband.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So yeah, you're right. The connection probably wasn't the right way to phrase it.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Well, he does like to do the video game thing.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
He is in sports. He's kind of miserable because he's I wouldn't say the worst player on the team, but he definitely doesn't get any minutes.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So I just feel like his life's pretty tough. OK, he just has no friends. He's not getting any minutes. And then he works a job part time that he just hates. So I just feel really bad because I just feel like his life.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Over the summer when he lived with us, he was working at this job, but he chose to give up a lot of shifts and kind of sit around. And his goal is to have a car and buy a car and pay for gas insurance and all those things, which we're super supportive of. And he kind of wasted his summer scrolling on TikTok, playing video games, giving up the shifts.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And so he kind of feels this sense of urgency because he gets his license soon. So, yeah, so he finds work to be important just for the value of saving money.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah. How do you balance that, though? Like you're saying, like, I agree, like, I don't really want him to have that freedom. But how do you balance that with, you know, we talked to him all the time about being responsible, you know, saving his money, because when he moved in with us, he spent all of it.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So now he's actually trying to do the right thing by saving money, you know, doing the driver's ed and all those things. So like, my fear is exactly what you're saying.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So that's the hard part. Cause we, me and my husband actually had this discussion. My husband's on the same page. He actually told me the other day, he's like, you know, what he needs is a little bit of a, just a picker upper by being good at something. Cause right now it kind of feels like he's getting beat down in every area of his life. So that's actually exactly what my husband said.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
But what we're both struggling with is He kind of doesn't have much personality outside of he's a really he's really kind kid. Like he really is. He's really well mannered. He has a really big heart. But as far as like gifts, passions, talents, interests, it again falls into that category of just he's kind of interested in escaping. And again, given his traumatic background, it makes sense.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Mm hmm. And, you know, he hasn't been under our roof very long. So again, like state stability hasn't been a thing for him. So we're struggling. How do you, how do you introduce those things to someone who just, his desire honestly seems like he just wants to numb out. Like that's all he wants to do. Like his goal is just to get home at the end of the day and just scroll on his phone and
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Uh, so it's just really hard to come up with ideas, especially because he really struggles with closed minded this too.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
I think that's really good. That's a good call out, too, because I think that's an area that I struggle in. If I'm being honest, I'm a lot harder on him for some reason than his sister. And I don't know if that's because our personalities are so different and he kind of like, you know, in my high school experience, I was a three sport athlete.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
I worked really hard, got straight A's, did all these things. I was like a busy bee. And he's kind of the complete opposite of that. And so sometimes I feel like, I'm doing exactly the opposite of what you suggested do, which was instead of like celebrating the little things I can be extra like nitpicky and hard on him because he is so different from me.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So I just think that's good advice and a good call out because like, as you were saying it, like just celebrate like the little things I'm like, Oh, here I am doing the opposite and kind of pointing out the little things that he could work on. And maybe that's where that kind of friction is happening between us.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Well, so he does do that sometimes though, like over things that are like, like we'll be playing pickup basketball and, And he'll like over celebrate. And is that a case where I do still cheerlead him, even if he's being a little overly cocky or I mean, in your face, it's not from what you're describing.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. That's a great call out. And that's really, really helpful.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Totally. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. That's really good. And it's hard to find those times. Like for my husband, it's really hard since we have four kids at home and he's worked, works a full time busy job. It is kind of hard to find those moments to even bring them along because my husband doesn't get to have guy time that much.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So maybe that's something we can rediscuss, though, and try to make more of a priority.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah, I think it's more of a monkey fee thing versus me and my husband try to have a lot of like just sit down heart to heart. And that's been going nowhere.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah, yeah, it's really good. And I think you're right, it's going to take a lot of patience and a lot of like growing pains for me to personally, because again, it's, it's hard to switch from parenting, you know, two littles, like a toddler and a baby to getting in that mindset of just
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Listening like I feel like with little kids, it's a different approach of you're correcting them, you're teaching them and you're talking to them about all these things that they're learning. And then you switch to parenting teenager and it's a totally different game. Yeah.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
So I think that's probably where some of the growing pains are coming from my side for for like from a parent parenting perspective.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can tell he's craving it too. Like I was put in a situation yesterday where he showed me his background. Like he really wanted to show me his background and his phone. And I got caught in a tricky situation of him looking for affirmation for me, but it was a picture of Scooby-Doo and smoking weed.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And so it's like that put me in a tricky position where I could tell he craves like affirmation, but then I was stuck in being like, but that's kind of immature and
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah, no, that's good. Being curious and asking questions. I think that's really good. And, and when you're talking about critiques, believe it or not, it actually comes out of a place of fear and control. That's where, why that comes out of me.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
And so just the willingness to let go of the fact that if, if I don't say, Hey, this is bad, that he still, like you said, he still knows that, that that's where I stand. I don't have to, Yeah, verbalize that.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
But yeah, just switching my mindset to I'm asking questions because I want to get to know and understand him, I think would just be more helpful for me because a lot of times the critiques just come out of a place of fear of I don't want him to go down a path where it'll ruin his life or whatever. Like, you know, again, it's more to do with generational history.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Yeah. I think that's great. I think that's really helpful.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. That really was thought-provoking and extremely helpful. Thank you.
The Viall Files
E893 Ask Nick - How Do I Connect With My Son?
Thank you. I appreciate your time. All right, take care. Thank you, you too.
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
I'm happy to meet someone for a casual encounter, but I just don't want the responsibility of like having to please that person every day. And that just sounds exhausting to me. And I think like for me, sex has always been like an entry point into a relationship. So I think it's, you know, I'm kind of framing it differently now.
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
Eventually someday I may want to pursue like a life partner, but I just feel like now isn't the time. And a lot of it is because of the dating no man's land in the early 40s. Yeah.
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
I feel like as I get older, my type is younger. I tend to be attracted to guys maybe five years younger than me. I think the last four or five guys I dated were about five years younger than me, so... That's kind of my sweet spot right now. I always say I have a reverse dad complex. My dad was so good that I'm not interested in older men.
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
I feel like women age differently than men. I think I've noticed this as I like see someone I haven't seen for a really long time that I went to high school with or something. And the women look great and the guys are looking kind of old. So I feel like, I don't know, the older woman, younger man, it's like, They can keep up with us a little bit better, maybe energy wise, too, I think.
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
You know, there's something else that I think is interesting that's happening with that. I feel like younger men... kind of grew up in a little bit different era about like sex. And I have found that the younger guys I'm with tend to be better at sex because they, you know, feel like they care about, you know, how I feel.
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
Whereas, you know, I feel like men my age kind of didn't really have access to that information when I was growing up.
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
Yeah, I think like sex is less of a tool now than it was in my 20s and 30s. I feel like it was an entryway to a relationship, right? That it was like sort of a bargaining piece to get someone to, you know, be in a committed relationship with me. And I feel like letting all of that go has kind of brought like the fun back to it. When did that switch happen for you?
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
Turning 40 and seeing some of my older friends going through divorces, having been in, you know, multiple decade-long marriages and then dating and having fun. And I think that was inspirational to me.
Today, Explained
Gen Sex
They're killing it. I feel like the media and just like the current climate has given us permission to spin on a pole at 50 if we want to.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Well, Walmart defines it as households earning $100,000 or more a year.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Well, the first thing they did to attract six-figure earners is just to be Walmart at a time when inflation is killing people's wallets, right? It was sort of this moment where I remember during the pandemic when we were all competing to get that big roll of toilet paper. Yes. And everyone was just rushing around like a chicken with their head cut off trying to get toilet paper.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Well, like all the retailers benefited, right? Walmart, Target, everyone saw this huge surge in demand. We're buying throw pillows and like backyard grills and all this stuff, right? And people are flush with stimulus dollars. So there was just like a huge influx of business for a lot of retailers.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Walmart, you know, coming out of that, inflation was such a huge role that lots of high-income households are going to Walmart, right? just to get cheaper groceries. And so what Walmart is trying to do now is keep those folks even when they feel flush again, right? It's about just naturally who they are kind of draws people in down times and target struggles.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
But Walmart wants to keep those people now and has done a few things to try to do that.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
They've worked hard to improve their fresh produce. So just the quality of the frozen produce, more organic food, probably a little bit more distinctive brands like the sort of unique hot sauce that you might not think you could find there. They've tried to go a little bit higher end on their apparel.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
The price points can be a little higher on those items than you're used to seeing at Walmart, but still a relatively good deal. They're trying to make those things like home goods and apparel look a little trendier. I don't think that they're quite the same. Target is more universally trendy and stylish when they're trying to design goods. So they're not the same thing.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
But if you're going for cheap groceries, you might think, well, this is good enough. And the other thing Walmart is doing is leaning into some of their e-commerce stuff, like buy online, pick up in a store parking lot. Those types of systems have gotten just smoother, and that is appealing to a lot of people as well.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
And that's always the tricky play. And that has actually been a problem. Walmart has tried to do this, you know, like grab and keep the higher income shoppers for decades, right? There's been waves of that depending on who's in charge.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
And there's sort of an apocryphal tale in Walmart world where back in the day, they tried to go higher end and compete with Target on apparel and brought their apparel offices to New York. And really, they just sold a lot less stuff overall because they ate into the sales of like the socks and the undershirts.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
And, you know, for years, there was sort of this like traumatic response, you know, when you talk to folks about that experience and that they knew they should stay in their lane. So what we're seeing now is kind of a revival of that thought and a different era, right, of doing that same thing.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
So basically, the week before Thanksgiving, Walmart said that it was going to roll back some of its DEI initiatives along with, you know, some of its broader policies that conservative activists would call sort of woke policies in corporate America.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
It was an interesting moment for me because I've covered a few of these announcements from companies, but none as big as Walmart. So when Walmart does something like this, it sort of has a different kind of effect on corporate America and response from shoppers and workers and all of those things. And from a company perspective, the concern is we're going to lose shoppers, right?
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
We're going to lose shoppers or not be able to hire as many people if people perceive us this way. That said, this is part of a years-long sort of turn away from even the term DEI. Like last year, Walmart started to use the word belonging, right? That doesn't mean that the policies change necessarily, but the corporate titles and the report that you get every year now has the word belonging in it.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
So it's acute, but it's also sort of a drip, drip, drip that we've seen in recent years.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Well, I think the takeaway is that Target has long been in a tricky spot when folks are feeling less flush, right? right? Just what they do. You're not going to splurge as much when you're feeling less flush. And so that's sort of a long-term challenge for the company in down times.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
What we're seeing now, I think, is another round of that where they have to decide, hey, can we be distinctive enough, right? Can our products be so cool that people will come to us? And that's just a very tricky thing to do. I think...
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
The takeaway is if your thing is selling cheap groceries like Walmart or an Aldi or someone else like that, it's easier to have kind of a steady Eddie business, at least when it comes to demand. I think that Target is in a place where what people love about them is this fun thing. This like, I am just going to go to Target and browse the aisles. And it's almost self-care.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Yes, it's consumerism and I'm picking up milk, but I really enjoy it. That is a thing that I've heard about Target, you know, my whole life, really. I remember when there was the first Target that opened in Brooklyn where I used to live and it was just mobbed. It was like people hadn't eaten in months or something and they were swarming this Target when it was open.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
So there's this kind of like fervent emotional attachment part of Target that I find really interesting. But that means that right now when you see that Target is struggling to draw people in with its products, if it's not cheap food, right, it means that it's hard. It's going to be hard for them to maintain that level of engagement with people in that way.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
And so they're just in a tricky spot right now. And time will tell whether or not, you know, they can sort of get back on track.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Yes. So the first Target store opened in 1962 in Roseville, Minnesota, which happens to be the town I grew up in primarily. And that was the year that the very first Walmart store opened. opened also to the south in Arkansas. And they were both, you know, open in this era of discounting, sort of the rise of the concept of a discount store.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
The difference for Target is that it was a department store. And so Target approached the sort of idea of a big box discount store with a department store's mentality.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
which meant from the beginning it was a little higher end. They were really trying to draw people in with specialized merchandise, and they were less concerned about being sort of the very lowest price on a commodity item.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Well, you know, over time, really that 80s period where it's in your brain, that is the expansion era of discount stores, right? This was one sort of experiment, right, in 1962, right? It was just an experiment, one store. And they found that it worked, right? And so they gradually opened more and more stores. Eventually, they added food into the mix.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Originally, there was no food in a Target store. And, you know, now they're up close to 2,000 stores around the country.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
They just haven't seen their sales progress you know, bounce back at all from sort of the post-COVID era.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Well, you know, they have added and also subtracted. You know, there's been a few iterations. You know, when the food concept first came to be at Target, they sold things like fresh sushi at one point.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
So there's been lots of iterations of what food could mean at Target. And also lots of iterations of what things like fashion could mean. But this idea that is very familiar to all of us, right? Like you go to the store and I kind of know I can buy toothpaste. And also I'll look at maybe some clothes, but I need a gallon of milk.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Like that kind of shopping experience, that's been around for decades now.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
That is the model and what they like really hope that you do, right, is that you walk in there and you're trying to spend 20 bucks and you walk out and you've spent 100.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
For sure. I mean, everyone kind of has like a feeling about Target, right? That means it's like that's a big brand. That's a big like part of culture when everyone has an opinion, an idea about what it means to them.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Well, there's a few things going on. One is, so we're still in a period where even though inflation has cooled a little bit, for most people, things feel really expensive. They're a lot more expensive than they were a few years ago. And so that's things that you need to buy, like food and childcare and rent. And people are still spending more on that stuff than they were a few years ago.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
And Target tends to have a little bit of a disadvantage in that environment because... More of their sales are based on what they call discretionary items, which really just means things we want but might not need.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
So in this environment, you know, a traditional grocery store or a Walmart, which is the country's largest grocer, tends to do a little better because we need to spend more on groceries and a little less on throw pillows and candles. So that's part of it. However...
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
You also see, especially in their last results, that they're starting to get, they're a little bit out of step with the market, which means that their sales are pretty flat, while other folks that are selling similar things, in some cases, their sales are growing a little more. And that means they're probably also making some operational missteps and losing market share.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
I've done that, though. I also do it in stores. I try to get in the store where it's warm. Do you ever get kicked out? I don't know if I've ever gotten kicked out of a Target. I have definitely gotten kicked out of malls. I've gotten kicked out of many stores over many years.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
I usually am just going in with my notebook, and so I'm a little bit more subtle. And also, the thing is... I always tell people who I am, right? And I always explain to the security guard or whoever, like, if people don't want to talk to me, they don't have to talk to me, you know.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Well, a lot of them are saying sort of a combination of things. One is, hey, I've just noticed some products are out of stock, right? Like I go in, I know that there's this Target thing that I like, like this certain brand of like mixed nuts or whatever it is, and they don't have it. And then that's really annoying. And then I have to make a second stop.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
People are talking about longer checkout lines, which is a perennial retail problem, right? And they feel they've gotten longer in some cases because Target has been making some changes with how they do self-checkout as an anti-theft measure. Some people don't like that more products are locked up as an anti-theft measure.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
And then some people sort of have more of a just general sense that the products aren't as exciting or interesting and tempting as they used to be. And that makes it a little less fun.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
The thing is, all of these are just common retail challenges, right? Lots of stores face these things from time to time. People feel they're getting a little bit worse at Target. But also, Target is a place that, again, you go because it's kind of fun, not necessarily just to buy cheap groceries.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
So people's standards for some of this stuff are a little bit different because it's supposed to be a fun place to shop, right?
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
We don't know for sure because they aren't defining their problems in this way. We heard them talk about on the last earnings call that their customer service scores over the last quarter are better than they were the same period last year, right? So they say things like checkout wait times, like customers' experience of those moments is improving. But they're not telling us exactly how.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
how they're improving or how bad their internal data shows that those things are. They're telling us that it's on a road to improvement.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
One thing that they have talked about when questioned by analysts or investors about what they're going to do about the sales decline is they do try to emphasize that they have tried to lower prices this year. They said they have lowered prices on 5000 everyday items earlier this year.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
They realize that shoppers want cheaper stuff, right? They want lower prices. So they're focused on that. And then they're sort of matching that with what they call sort of distinctive product, right? They know that people come to them because they want something cool and interesting. So they're trying to redouble their efforts on that front as well.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Target is a place that does sort of attract this like, you know, people love to shop there, right? It has like this emotional attachment for a lot of people, especially I think moms that want to like get away from their kids and browse the aisles is a story I hear about often. You know, that's not gone.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
We're not in a place where we're like Target's going out of business and they're the next Sears. Like we are not there yet, right? Right. But we are at a place where you see their sales kind of getting out of step with broader trends. And that's the thing I think that like that's why you saw the stock drop 20 percent after earnings. It's unexpected and it's a little out of step.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
The annoying answer is yes and no. Hmm. They're comparable stores in that they're both a place where you can go and get lots, like a wide variety of things, right? Like the gallon of milk, the toothpaste, and the throw pillow. But Target has always had a slightly higher income core shopper. a different real estate footprint. And again, remember they have those department store roots.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
The whole model has always been about a little bit fancier product, a little bit trendier product, and attracting people into the store for that. Walmart has been a discounter, a low price player, the country's largest grocer, and people associate Walmart with a low price.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
Walmart is a much larger company than Target. People compare them, but Walmart is massive compared to Target. So when they report positive sales growth of around 5% in the U.S. like they did last quarter, they're growing really fast compared to Target. They're just grabbing a lot of business.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
And the thing that's happening at Walmart is also sort of in the post-pandemic era, they have really made a conscious effort to try to attract higher income folks. Because everyone shops at Walmart in America in some capacity at some times, even if it's like you just go there once a year when you're on vacation in some place and you don't know where else to go, right? You'd still go to Walmart.
Today, Explained
Target misses the mark
And so it's hard for them to grow. So they've made an effort to go after higher income folks with their apparel selection, their food selection, and even like their marketing, the style of marketing.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
So it's true that Bill Danoff had never been to West Virginia, but the eastern panhandle of West Virginia is only about 60 miles from D.C., so it's not a world away. And West Virginia was so prominent in the cultural and political landscape of the 60s. So Kennedy campaigned really heavily in the state. The Appalachian Regional Commission was established in the 60s.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
All these road building and charity efforts put West Virginia in the spotlight. If you were living in D.C., there's no way you wouldn't have known about the state. But John Denver, he was in a band called the Mitchell Trio from 1965 until about 1968. And they toured college campuses all over the eastern seaboard, including West Virginia.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
So he performed at West Virginia Wesleyan College. He performed at Marshall University. In 1970, in the fall, he performed solo at Concord College's homecoming celebration. And then Taffy Nivert, her voice is really interesting to me because in some ways we don't hear from her very much, but she has probably the deepest connection with the state.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
She went to college across the river from West Virginia in the Northern Panhandle. So she spent time in Wheeling, While she was in college across the river, she told me that when she was in college, she'd look across the Ohio River and think of West Virginia as the motherland.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
So she had kind of a deep emotional connection, if not a lifelong connection, if not the connection of a West Virginia native.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
Yes. I mean, geographically speaking, the Shenandoah only crosses a tiny bit of the state, and the Blue Ridge Mountains, they're present in just a tiny part of the state. So, like, geographically, they're talking about a very small piece. So I think lots of West Virginians say, yeah, but it's not really about us.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
Except we live in this cultural landscape where West Virginians are either derided or are completely invisible. We're always making this ongoing accounting of existing. And that's an extreme sentiment, but it happens to all of us. Or a celebrity says something really terrible or makes a hillbilly joke, and we can say, well, we've got country roads.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
Like, here's evidence that we were recognized and that we were loved. So West Virginians use it in all these really utilitarian ways. People sing it at funerals. People sing it at weddings, at graduations, at family reunions. Yay!
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
I can't believe how many people have told me stories about family vacations where when they cross the state line, mom and dad wake everybody up and you sing Country Roads. It's a thing. I thought it was just my family. It's not. It's a thing. They sing it at protests. in governmental offices. It's everywhere in the state. People decorate their houses with it.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
I probably have five different Country Roads themed t-shirts. People tattoo it on their bodies, right? That it's this, it's used rhetorically in lots of different ways. But I think something really important to understand is that Country Roads speaks to West Virginians because leaving is infused into our cultural consciousness.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
From 1950 to about the year 2000, West Virginia lost nearly 800,000 people. People migrating out because there aren't jobs. The industry is, by and large, owned from the outside, right? Businesses close. We export a lot of our resources. And we continue to lose population in numbers larger than any other state. We just lost another congressional seat because of population loss.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
I'm an assistant professor of English, and I'm the coordinator for undergraduate writing at West Virginia University.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
So we're taught that we have to leave to succeed. There's no home for us here. And that if we want to stay, maybe we can't. And so Country Roads really calls to that.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
So this was a speaker, as I recall, that had a religious message. And he was holding a sign. And sometimes, you know, college campuses, we get folks who come through as like itinerant preachers. And I think that's the kind of situation. But I think he was saying something pretty divisive. I don't know. I couldn't hear it. All I could hear was country roads.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
But I've seen this pattern of West Virginians using it in congressional offices sometimes. Like I was able to find recordings of folks using it to protest rockwool, which is an industrial plant that was being put in in the eastern part of the state.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
When RCA realized how popular the song was going to be, and it was actually shared outside of the United States first, they really started sharing it with different artists. And that caused its global popularity to move pretty quickly. So in the first year or two of the original release, Loretta Lynn covered it. Lynn Anderson covered it. Tennessee Ernie Ford covered it.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
There was a tweet that went out some time ago that said that, you know, being arrested while singing country roads is peak Appalachian experience for someone who's engaging in civic discourse. So I do think it's used for all of these different rhetorical purposes.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
Oh, our emotions are tied up in politics. I mean, especially today, right? So much of our political landscape is governed by emotion rather than reason. So when a candidate plays Country Roads at a rally, oh, we think he's on our side if you're from West Virginia.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
In the days after Trump used the song, John Denver's estate came out and said that they don't endorse any political candidate using the song. But I don't think... I don't think it's wrong. And I don't think it makes the song divisive.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
I think it still has those connective qualities, whether we're using it or whether a politician is using it at a campaign stop or whether it's used in a beer commercial or whether it's used to sell tires or whatever, right? And that's another aspect that I've been thinking about is it's used to create affiliation and a sense of belonging, right? And political campaigns do that.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
We want to associate our values with the candidate's values. And playing the right song allows for that. Just the same as playing the right song helps us sell a Google Home device or whatever.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
I would venture to say that it's a thing that never existed. So I think one of the things that Country Roads does... is create an imaginary landscape that's flexible and can be applied to any home. So one of the concepts that I work with in my book is hiraeth, which is a Welsh term that means something like homesickness, but not quite.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
It's like a deep existential longing for a place that you've never been or a place that doesn't really exist in the first place. So I think there's this sense of imaginary landscape that taps into a deep-seated universal feeling of wanting to belong to a place and to each other. And that's what gives the song power. Which is why we see it transformed in so many different ways.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
That it's not really about West Virginia, and yet West Virginians can take it up. But like... Tuts and the Maytals can make it West Jamaica. Or Israel Kamakavivole can make it West Makaha. Or there's a really great group of sisters called the Moipe Quartet who talk about Kenya.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
The Statler Brothers recorded it. It was distributed to all these different artists. But one of the things that I think is interesting is that there were three versions that stand out. So there's the original...
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
So it's flexible and taps into something ineffable, right? Something that's this deep human need. And that's what I think the power comes from. But for West Virginians, it's different because it calls us out by name in a way that we're not used to being called.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
There's Olivia Newton-John's country pop version, which was distributed throughout Europe.
Today, Explained
Almost Heaven
And then Ray Charles' R&B cover that went to African-American markets.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
So I would define a trad wife. My definition has kind of changed in the last couple of years, but I would define a trad wife as somebody who adheres to traditional gender norms. and does so in a public-facing way. First of all, you should be a mother. If you're a woman, you should be a mother. And you should glory in all things domestic.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
So not only should you take care of the house, clean the house, cook the meals, raise the children. Ideally, you're doing these things in a really aesthetically pleasing way. Often they homeschool their children. They're often making food from scratch. So they're doing all things, you know, mothering labor and domestic labor, but they're turning it up to 100.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
There's a lot of disillusionment, rightly so, with the narratives of mainstream feminism that have been parceled out in the past 20 years. So there's a real rejection of girl boss feminism at the heart of many of these accounts. There's a lot of exhaustion with the idea of having to work a full-time job in addition to raising a family without getting burnt out.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
You know, there's a lot of women who, you know, I wouldn't necessarily put in the trad wife bucket, who are also sort of united in this rejection of the version of feminism that they've been fed. There's soft girls who are living soft lives.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
And then I'm thinking of the stay-at-home girlfriend phenomenon. And these women really prioritize keeping their homes immaculate, keeping their bodies immaculate. A lot of focus on physical appearance, maintaining beauty standards and body standards. And I'm thinking of one, Kendall K on TikTok.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
It's really... simple content usually. But I think the appeal is that it feels simple and it feels sort of separate from the messiness of life that most of us are experiencing. So yeah.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
It depends, which I know is an obnoxious answer. But I'm thinking of one who, like, proudly wears the term, Aria Lewis. She's Mrs. Aria Lewis on Instagram. And she is constantly defining what it means to be a tradwife, owning the term tradwife.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
But then you have people like Hannah Nealeman, who was interviewed by the London Times and said she didn't really identify with the term. I think a lot of the time these women are saying they're just living their lives and, you know, we're the ones that are obsessed with labeling it and... sort of pathologizing it, but they're just doing what feels right to them. Hannah Nealman is fascinating.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
Tell us about her. I started following Hannah Nealman in 2019 or 2020. I wrote a piece for Harper's Bazaar. And at that point, she had under 200,000 followers on Instagram. which is absolutely wild considering she now has roughly 22 million followers across all platforms. She has just absolutely exploded in fame and just visibility. She is a mother of eight. She's Mormon.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
She lives on a ranch in Utah with her husband, Daniel Neilman. who is one of the children of David Nealeman, who founded JetBlue. So there's certainly generational wealth at play. Yeah, they are hugely controversial, mostly because Hannah's Instagram makes her life look really... Serene, I would say.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
She just leans into motherhood and domesticity in a way that feels absolutely impossible unless you have a ton of money and a ton of other privileges. I think a hallmark Hannah Nealman reel is her cooking some sort of elaborate scratch meal. I'm getting started on my meat.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
And she's either wearing a baby or has a toddler on her hip. Children are coming in and out of frame. And her voice, it never really changes in pitch or tone. It's like always calm.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
And I think if you were to ask most people, like, do you follow any trad wives? The one they would reference the most is Hannah Naleman.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
It's really beautiful content a lot of the time. You know, there's all these rolling hills, you know, open plains. The kitchen is rustic in this very like, you know, yesteryear type of way. And I think there's something so intoxicating about the idea of devoting oneself to just to one thing or to go all in on one aspect of your identity, right?
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
I think that's especially salient for moms who, you know, we can't find affordable childcare. We're constantly torn in two directions. And so to see somebody who isn't torn in two directions and who seems really happy and is living this beautiful life. Yeah, I think we all just want more simplicity. And I think we're also longing for the certainty that she seems to have in her lifestyle.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
Um, really that she's adhering to super specific standards of femininity and motherhood. She's very thin. She's conventionally attractive. She even, you know, she participates in beauty pageants, which is just, you know, an explicit, like, best domestic goddess contest. Um... And I think mothers across this country are mad. We're exhausted. We're under-resourced.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
We're not supported by our government. And so to see somebody constantly selling this idyllic, romanticized version of motherhood that is wildly impossible for the vast majority of people feels sort of like a form of gaslighting.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
I don't even care. I'm not even particularly interested in whether or not, you know, all of this comes as easily to her as she makes it seem. I do think Hannah Nealman has... Her responsibility in the trad wife sort of phenomenon is hard to parse. I think what's more important is what politicians do with trad wives and how they... explicitly or not, weaponize them in the culture wars.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
While she has said that she aims to be apolitical for most of her public-facing years, she recently did a cover shoot with Evie magazine. It looks a lot like Glamour or Elle, but they're publishing articles about the toxicity of birth control and the importance of the nuclear family and how to be your best feminine self. And they were really big supporters of Donald Trump.
Today, Explained
Trad wife takeover
So I don't think she can claim an apolitical stance anymore. I think if we weren't living in this really broken country where women's rights are just this constant object of debate, I don't think she would be quite the lightning rod she is.
Today, Explained
Canadian bakin’
Probably an ounce, like a cool jizz. Jesus! We burning a cool ounce.
We Can Do Hard Things
FUN: What the hell is it and why do we need it? (Best Of)
Hi, Glennon. My name is Sarah. I'm a wife, sister, daughter, mother, and healthcare worker. When I think about my life, it strikes me that I've never known how to have fun. When I think about my family, it strikes me that none of us, none of the women, my mother, my grandmother, my
We Can Do Hard Things
FUN: What the hell is it and why do we need it? (Best Of)
cousins sisters aunts have fun the closest we get to having fun is drinking wine together i keep asking myself what do you want to do for fun but i have no answer just silence i'm worried that i was born without a fun self or that my fun self is dead what do you think Thanks for the show.
Will & Rusty's Playdate
I used pull my finger to save my relationship
Or you don't have enough time for that.
Will & Rusty's Playdate
I used pull my finger to save my relationship
What are they saying? I would have hell to pay, baby, if I didn't have you. It's taking its time to show itself now, but it's always been true. I don't think I've heard it.
Will & Rusty's Playdate
we built the biggest rube goldberg machine
Isn't that sick with a subwoofer?
Will & Rusty's Playdate
we built the biggest rube goldberg machine
I feel like I'm getting binder blasted right now. Binder! Binder, get in here! Binder! Binder! Get in here. Yeah. Binder. Yes, Emily. Yes. Yes. Take a seat. Take a seat. Come on. Get in here. Get in here, girl. Binder.
Will & Rusty's Playdate
rusty faces a lawsuit w/ chet collins
I'm sorry, the person you were trying to reach... We'll call him next week. Don't burn it.
Will & Rusty's Playdate
rusty faces a lawsuit w/ chet collins
Hello? Hello? Hi, yes? Hi, do you hear me? Yeah. Hello, this is Sarah calling regarding your existing credit card.