Andrea Dunlop
Appearances
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated. The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
What followed was a year of upheaval, violence, and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North. In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
The case has baffled law enforcement and the families for two decades, and as a Philly native, the story has always haunted Gunning. Now she's out to find the truth. I binge this series in a few days. It's so gripping, and the host's connection to the story and the care with which she handles it really makes it something special. So go check it out. You can listen to the whole thing right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
True Story Media. Hey, it's Andrea, and today I want to introduce you to a really incredible series called There and Gone from my friend Andrea Gunning, who you may know from the hit shows Betrayal and Betrayal Weekly. There and Gone is the story of Danielle Imbo and her friend Richard Patron, who disappeared from a busy Philadelphia street 20 years ago today.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
You can find There and Gone at the link in our show notes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Now, here's the first episode. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
But if he was expecting every perpetrator to be a master manipulator, Brittany Phillips, a person who fooled exactly no one, would prove him wrong. Brittany brought home for Mike how important an offender's digital footprint could be.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The phenomenon of social media has exacerbated Munchausen by proxy in unimaginable ways, and in the early 2010s, when Mike investigated Brittany, it was only beginning to emerge how dramatic the coming shift would be. And with Mary Welch, Mike would see just how inept the systems around medical child abuse truly are, and how money and the soft power of charm and beauty can blur all the lines.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Mary was the archetypal perfect upper-middle-class mom, impossible for many to view as a criminal. At first, I'd planned to help Mike with a book proposal, introduce him to some agents, and then bow out. But before I knew it, I'd gone through the looking glass, too, and offered to write it with him. I'd spent years trying to avoid analyzing what happened in my family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
But by the time I met Mike, I was deep into the process of trying to understand it and to hopefully help others do the same. It was a fateful meeting that would launch not only the creation of this audiobook, but my podcast, Nobody Should Believe Me, which, as of this writing, has been downloaded more than 5 million times. Before we go any further, some lexicon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The disorders underlying what are colloquially known as Munchausen syndrome, factitious disorder imposed on self, and Munchausen by proxy, factitious disorder imposed on another, are grouped together under the umbrella of factitious disorders and are characterized by intentional deception around medical issues for the purposes of attention and sympathy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Munchausen syndrome was first coined by Dr. Richard Asher in The Lancet back in 1951, after Baron Munchausen, a character from a 1785 novel who told tall tales about his exploits. Munchausen behaviors do not always lead to Munchausen by proxy abuse, but they are certainly considered a risk factor by every expert I've spoken to. And we will see ample evidence of both disorders in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It's worth noting that on its own, the Munchausen phenomenon is baffling and complex and causes very real harm to the people it ensnares, even as the risks are less horrific than child abuse. Consider one example. In 2015, Australian food blogger and author Belle Gibson caused a national firestorm when it was revealed to be a hoax all along that she'd cured numerous forms of cancer with her diet.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The book was fiction, yes, but it was heavily based on events that had destroyed my family. I'd never written anything that made me feel so vulnerable. Overall, the launch was not going especially well. If you are lucky enough to publish more than one or two books in your life, as I have been, you are sure to have at least one where everything goes wrong. This was mine.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The cascade of fallout included a fraudulent claim that she had donated $300,000 to various charities. Bell was ultimately convicted in the Federal Court of Australia for breaching consumer laws and was fined more than a quarter of a million dollars, which, as of this writing, she still has not paid.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
According to news reports, numerous people came forward with their stories of foregoing traditional treatment for their very real cancer diagnoses in order to follow Bell's regimen.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In a disquieting interview with Australia's 60 Minutes, Bell maintains she believed her diagnosis to be real and that she was fooled by unscrupulous doctors, another claim that was swiftly proven false, and evades taking responsibility for her actions. But even in more quotidian cases than Bell's, the damage done to those involved is often deep and long-lasting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The story of Sarah DeLashment, a woman who falsely claimed to suffer from a host of ailments, including muscular dystrophy and breast cancer, was chronicled first by Sarah Treleaven for Elle and then further explored by the podcast Sympathy Pains, which focused on the emotional, financial, and psychological fallout for her primary victims. No one who is ensnared in such a lie is ever the same.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
DeLashmet was ultimately sentenced to 18 months in federal prison after pleading guilty on several counts of fraud. It's important to understand that factitious disorders are characterized by deliberate deception and are not cases of someone who is simply anxious or even having outright delusions about illnesses.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It feels very worth noting here, too, how enmeshed this all is in our deeply flawed and often biased medical system. People do suffer from ailments that can be difficult to get to the bottom of. And if someone feels they are not getting adequate care, they have every right to continue to seek help and move on from doctors who aren't listening to them or treating them properly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Medical gaslighting, the phenomenon of doctors wrongly blaming a patient's symptoms on psychological factors or denying their symptoms entirely, is especially prominent with female patients due to age-old biases in the medical community about women and pain.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Medical misogyny is real, and I don't know a single woman, myself included, who hasn't experienced it, who hasn't been brushed off or had their experience of their own body questioned at least once by someone in the medical establishment. Add in any other marginalized identity and the problem gets worse. Black people receive worse care. The mortality rate for black mothers in the U.S.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
is nearly three times what it is for white women. As do fat people who are routinely denied care because of their size and trans people who face innumerable barriers and biases to receiving care.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Most doctors get into the profession to help, but they are still human beings with biases, and they're operating within a system originally designed to serve the needs of cis white men first with everyone else as an afterthought. We are still in the nascent stages of reforming those ideas.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Take, for example, the Body Mass Index , developed 200 years ago by a Belgian astronomer and mathematician as a way to determine the average man, which he considered a social ideal. Despite its problematic history, this metric is nonetheless trotted out for bodies of all genders and races and used as though it is an infallible metric of health.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
or consider that women were generally excluded from clinical trials until the 1990s, based on an earlier medical ethos that they were just men with boobs and tubes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Black Americans have a particularly horrifying history with the medical system, including the 1932 Tuskegee study of untreated syphilis in the Negro male, wherein black male participants were not told they had syphilis and treatments were intentionally withheld. The study went on for 40 years until an Associated Press expose put a stop to it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
For one thing, my beloved editor had left the publishing house some six months earlier, leaving me orphaned. Since then, there had been so many staffing changes that no one who had worked on my previous books was still in place by the time this had come out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
There is also the grim history of Dr. J. Marion Sims, the so-called father of gynecology, who conducted gruesome experiments on enslaved women, foregoing anesthesia.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
These examples are the tip of the iceberg in terms of why many people have a rightful mistrust of the medical system and find themselves needing to be dogged about receiving care, perhaps even to be a bit more dramatic about their symptoms than they'd prefer. But Munchausen is not seeking a second opinion or even hamming it up a little bit to make sure the doctor takes you seriously.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It's a pattern of deliberate, often extremely well-researched deception, perpetrated for the intrinsic reward of sympathy, attention, and, to a degree, the sheer thrill of fooling people. These same motivations and behavior patterns underpin Munchausen by proxy, but because it involves child victims, who often cannot speak for or defend themselves, the consequences are far more severe.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The term Munchausen by proxy was first coined by the British pediatrician Roy Meadow in 1977. MBP has never been used in either the International Classification of Diseases, ICD, or the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM. In fact, the term MBP is used descriptively rather than diagnostically.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It encapsulates both the act of deliberately falsifying, exaggerating, or inducing illness in a child and the underlying psychopathology of the caregiver who does so. This confusion over terminology is at the heart of our immense cultural bewilderment over the issue itself. One of the questions Mike and I get asked most frequently is whether Munchausen by proxy is a crime or a mental illness.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The answer is both. MBP is used interchangeably to describe the act of medical child abuse, a term coined by child abuse pediatrician and nationally recognized expert Dr. Carol Jenny in her book so titled, published by the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2009.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
and factitious disorder imposed on another, which is the official DSM diagnosis for a caregiver who subjects a child to unnecessary medical care for the purposes of attention, sympathy, and emotional gratification. We'll be using all three terms throughout this book, but MBP is still the most widely used, including by doctors, the legal system, and experts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Worst of all, instead of spending publication day trying to relax before the launch event that night, I had spent it alternating phone calls with my lawyer, agent, and therapist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Mike, who had worked in crimes against children units for years when he got his first medical child abuse case, has a helpful way of cutting through the confusion that arises here. Munchausen by proxy is used the same way pedophilia is often, incorrectly, used, to describe both the act of child sex abuse and the DSM diagnosis of pedophilic disorder, which are related but separate.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I find the comparison helps those new to the topic, both in understanding the relationship between mental illness and actions, and also in grasping the seriousness of what's happening. In both cases, children are being victimized by abusers who, though they may struggle with their mental health, are still culpable for their actions and understand the difference between right and wrong.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
More study on offenders is sorely needed, but what we do know about the profile of MVP offenders paints a complex and challenging picture from a mental health perspective, as there is a high rate of comorbidity, i.e. coexistence, with certain personality disorders, borderline narcissistic and histrionic, as well as high rates of severe depression.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The mental health of offenders is fascinating and worth exploring, so long as we never lose sight of the safety of the victims. When we discuss MBP offenders, we're not talking about overly anxious parents or those who are suffering from delusions. We're talking about parents who knowingly deceive others and put their children's well-being, and often their lives, at risk in doing so.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The cause was an 11th hour cease and desist I had received from my sister Megan, attempting to halt the publication of my novel and insisting I stop discussing my personal connection to one of the central themes of the book, Munchausen by proxy. Megan had always denied the abuse allegations, and now her lawyer was demanding that I retract my previous statements to the media and cancel my tour.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
These two unspeakable crimes of child sex abuse and medical child abuse form a sort of dyad in our cultural conception of child abuse. In cases of child sex abuse, the vast majority, 88%, of perpetrators are male. In cases of medical child abuse, an even more overwhelming majority, 96%, are women. There was a time when society believed child sex abuse to be extraordinarily rare.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
But with the myriad scandals surrounding organizations ranging from the Catholic Church to the Boy Scouts of America, we've undergone a reckoning that it is far from unusual, and that it is most frequently committed not by some menacing stranger, but by someone known to the victim. Medical child abuse is equally damaging and even more intimate, as most perpetrators are the mother of their victim.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The one person we're meant to be able to trust above all else. In both cases, abusers seek the cover of a trusted position in the community. Who is going to question that nice t-ball coach all the kids love? Who would be so cruel as to question a mom of a child with cancer? Yet millions of dollars are dedicated each year to the worthy cause of preventing child sex abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The resources dedicated to medical child abuse? There is some support given to individual hospitals, CASA, Court Appointed Special Advocate, and GAL, Guardian Ad Litem, programs, or community care-based organizations that certainly help. But in terms of organizations focused only on MBP, there is only one. Munchausen Support, the small 501c3 nonprofit that I founded in 2021.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In the Tarrant County Sheriff's Office, where Mike currently works, there are four officers and a sergeant assigned to the Human Trafficking Division. For medical child abuse, there's Mike, who works these cases in addition to a full load of physical and sexual abuse cases. And that's one more dedicated officer than anywhere else in the country.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Mike is the only detective in the United States who has made this a focused area of expertise. This is why he's tapped by child abuse professionals nationwide, as well as the FBI, for direction on these complex investigations.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
As author and actor Jeanette McCurdy said in an interview with New York Magazine about her 2022 memoir, I'm Glad My Mom Died, with dads, everybody can flippantly say, ugh, never mind him, you know how dads are. There's so little acknowledgement and so much fear around saying anything negative about moms.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Over the years, pop culture has made sporadic attempts to depict Munchausen by proxy on the big and small screen, beginning with The Sixth Sense, in which a little girl ghost portrayed by Misha Barton takes the young protagonist of the film, Cole, to her own funeral. There, her mother sits weeping like a martyr, despite having caused her child's death.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In 2019 alone, the year We Came Here to Forget was published, a spate of prestige television dramas depicted fictional MVP narratives. These ranged from HBO's Sharp Objects and Netflix's The Politician to The Act, which depicted the sensationalized story of Gypsy Rose Blanchard, a victim who conspired to murder her abusive mother.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
There was also an HBO documentary on the Blanchard case, the more responsibly made production, in my opinion, Mommy, Dead, and Dearest. In terms of real-life cases, few have captivated the public's imagination like Gypsy Rose's, with its unbelievable twists and turns and just plain bizarre characters and details.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In essence, she wanted me to shut up and go away. I wrote the majority of We Came Here to Forget while I was pregnant with my daughter. I always knew I'd write about my sister eventually. Writers are prone to working out their traumas on the page. When motherhood came into the picture, it suddenly felt necessary to write about the tragedy that had devastated my own family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
When she was released from prison in December 2023, Gypsy Rose's social media followers ballooned to millions in a period of days. Gypsy Inc. was in full swing, with a book and a Lifetime series and a slate of press appearances already in place.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
This was an unprecedented moment of visibility for a survivor of Munchausen by proxy, but it was treated like an entertainment story, with Gypsy Rose as the Roxy heart of it all.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
For those of us who work with MBP in the professional sphere and those who've been personally impacted by it, this was both a welcome moment of interest and a precarious balancing act as we watched one traumatized young woman become a monolithic representation of survivors in the public's imagination.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Even more incredibly, Gypsy's release from prison came directly on the heels of the Maya Kowalski trial, in which the Kowalski family won an unprecedented quarter-billion-dollar verdict against Johns Hopkins All Children's Hospital. The hospital denies the charges and has filed an appeal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The Kowalski family alleged that the hospital had unjustly kept Maya from her mother due to suspicions of medical child abuse. Unlike the Gypsy Rose case, this time the public sympathy largely fell with the suspected perpetrator, Beata Kowalski, who died by suicide before an investigation could be completed, with the media positioning it as a case of medical kidnapping.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The innumerable chilling parallels between the two cases have been largely obfuscated in the popular imagination. But for anyone paying attention, there was a moment of whiplash as the public demanded to know why Gypsy's doctors didn't intervene to stop the abuse, even as those who did exactly that in the Maya Kowalski case now faced reputational ruin and fiscal punishment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Whether this confusion is a sign of our profound dissonance that some mothers are capable of doing unspeakable things to their children or the messy beginnings of a cultural reckoning on this type of abuse remains to be seen. In general, any media coverage on MBP tends to focus on the medical horror and to sensationalize the deranged nature of the perpetrators.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Viewers could be forgiven for walking away from these stories with the comforting assurance that this could never happen to anyone they know. Only a monster could be capable of such crimes, and of course, we'd readily recognize such a monster if we met her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The heavy Gothic horror of sharp objects and the outlandish portraits of Dede Blanchard and her eccentric southern relatives suggest this abuse would never happen in an ordinary family, that decades of trauma and dysfunction must precede such behavior. In fact, in most of the cases I've researched, the opposite is true.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The mother at fault appears not just normal, but especially warm and devoted to her children. And, as often as not, the family she comes from is as loving as one could hope for. Horrifyingly, MBP cases tend to make the news only after a child has died, as was the case with Olivia Gant and Garnet Spears.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Olivia Gant was killed in 2017 by her mother, who needlessly placed her in hospice care and removed her feeding tubes. Garnet Spears was poisoned by his mother with table salt, finally dying in 2014. But this abuse is believed by many to have one of the highest death rates of any form of child abuse, at around 9%.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
These gaps in both cultural awareness and media coverage leave us less room to look at how systems might be improved, to study cases where the child was successfully protected, to examine what the system looks like when it does work. Yet there is such a place, Tarrant County, Texas.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Some book ideas take forever to coalesce, while others, like this one, arrive fully formed and feel so urgent that you ignore them at your own peril. My life was in a good place when I wrote the book, but you don't get over becoming estranged from your only sister, especially when that separation is due to something as terrifying as suspicions of child abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Detective Mike Weber is a big part of why children in this one county may currently be safer than anywhere else in the country. But he's not working in a vacuum. Several key people, some of whom you'll meet in this book, play a role in making Tarrant County a microcosm that can show us how common medical child abuse might really be, and can instruct us on how to fix it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The societal issues intertwined with Munchausen by proxy could hardly be more contentious than they are in this moment. I was holding my nine-day-old son when, in June 2022, the Supreme Court's Dobbs decision overturned the decades-old precedent set by Roe v. Wade. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
At best, it's a wound that changes over time, and just when you think it's closed, it splits right open again. For me, the experience of becoming a mother brought my history with my sister to the surface in a way that I was no more prepared for than anything else about new motherhood. Thank you so much for having me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
So she would have been the perfect person to ask about my dreadful morning sickness and all of the paranoias that accompany a first pregnancy. It would have given me an opportunity, increasingly rare as we grew into adulthood and our lives took different paths, to feel close to her again. She would have been so great on that call.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, please come see Mike and I at our launch events on Tuesday, February 4th and Thursday, February 6th, respectively. You can find all of that info on where to find us and the book in our show notes. And today I have something very special for you, which is an excerpt of the audiobook, which I am the narrator of.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
But she wasn't there on the other end of the line to take that call, just as she wasn't there to celebrate with me when I got my first book deal. She wasn't standing next to me on my wedding day. She wasn't holding my hand in the delivery room. Her absence has fundamentally altered the life I thought I would lead. I was sure we'd raise our kids together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I took for granted that she'd be there to help me cope as our parents age when they inevitably pass away. I imagined us having lunches together as old women, comparing notes on our grandkids. As it stands, I can't imagine she'll ever even meet my children, much less their children. Her absence has hardened into a permanent thing that feels like a death, only less complete.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In July 2019, I hadn't seen my sister in almost a decade. And as the years had gone by, what once seemed unimaginable felt increasingly likely that I would never see her again. Until that rainy night of the book launch.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Thankfully, a dear friend, humorist Geraldine DeReuter, was moderating the event, so I didn't have to sit alone at the microphone after being rubbed raw by the emotions of the preceding days. As she finished introducing me, I smiled, trying to appear calm as my eyes scanned the room. This was my hometown event, so there were lots of familiar faces in the crowd.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
My parents and my husband and daughter were sitting in the front row, along with some other family members. One face in particular moved me so deeply that I almost lost my tenuous composure right away. Stephanie was my sister's best friend growing up, and a second big sister to me. We'd only recently reconnected, but she was there, heavily pregnant with her second child, sitting with her own mom.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Between these friends and the subtext of the book, it felt like my sister's ghost was hovering in the front row as well. The ghost of the sister who should have been there. For a moment, I let myself imagine her, somewhere on the edge of the store. All day, a small part of me had wondered whether she might try to disrupt the event. But when I didn't see her in the audience, relief washed over me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. Today is the day. After many years of work, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, my first ever nonfiction book that I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber is officially out in the world. You can buy it right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Most writers share an alternating fear and fantasy about our books drawing people out of the woodwork to see us triumphant in our success. Maybe the crowd will part and an old lover will try to win you back, or your high school bully will approach, chagrined and apologetic.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
When I launched my previous books, I confess there was some small part of me that hoped my sister might show up, full of pride that I'd accomplished what had always been my lifelong dream. But this was before I ever went public about her. On that night, I knew that wherever she was, she wasn't feeling anything close to pride.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Regardless of what she thought, I didn't write We Came Here to Forget to settle a score. I wrote it because I needed to. And the reason I went public about my own connection to Munchausen by proxy, also known as medical child abuse, wherein a parent or caretaker fabricates, exaggerates, or induces illness in their child, was that I wanted to authentically portray a family coping with its specter.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The media pays little attention to this topic, and when it does, it sensationalizes it. At the time of my book launch, I had never spoken to a single other person who'd navigated the bizarre, lonely waters of an investigation. Back when my family was imploding, it would have meant so much to me to talk to someone who could understand.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It would have helped to see the story reflected with empathy and dignity, rather than as grisly fodder for true crime drama. My third novel could be my chance to live that adage, write the book you want to read. I wanted to be that voice for someone else. A few days after my book event, I had lunch with Stephanie at a pub on Seattle's East Side.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
This is the first time I've ever read one of my own audiobooks, and it just feels really special on this one to get to go with you for this part of the book's journey. So without further ado, here is an exclusive excerpt from The Mother Next Door from Macmillan Audio. Enjoy! Introduction It was a rainy night in Seattle in July 2019.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Stephanie is so deeply entwined in my history that her voice feels familiar to me in the way a family member's does. More of my memories growing up include her than don't. It meant so much to me that she and her mom came to the event and that she read my book. I filled her in on the surrounding legal drama, eager to talk to someone else who'd known and loved my sister.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I was up there just waiting for her to burst in and disrupt the event. I finished, now able to laugh at my paranoia. Stephanie's eyes got big. "'There's something I have to tell you,' she said slowly. I didn't want to say anything the night of, but I went to the ladies' room right before the event started. She paused. Meg and I walked right by each other. I froze.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
My sister had not just been a ghost in the room." I was instantly grateful I hadn't seen her and also deeply spooked that she'd been there watching, no doubt waiting for me to misstep, to say something that she and her lawyer could use against me. She could have been inches from my baby and husband, who would not have recognized her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Like everyone else who once knew Megan, every member of our family, each friend from her formerly tight-knit circle, Stephanie hasn't spoken to my sister in years. That night, the two women who'd been inseparable as girls didn't say a word as they brushed past each other. When I got home from lunch, I told my husband that Megan had been at the event, and I watched his face go white.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
He had never met my sister, yet she was an inescapable presence in our lives, looming large in her absence. In that moment, I could see in his expression that the horror story of my past had suddenly become real. That night marked the beginning of the next phase of my complicated 40-year journey with Megan. We'd been sisters, then we'd been strangers.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
And on this night, we'd morphed into something new, something I had been fighting to avoid, but which suddenly felt inevitable. Now, we were enemies. I first met Detective Mike Weber at a Munchausen by proxy, MBP, training in January 2020, mere weeks before the COVID-19 pandemic would make the idea of sitting in a room full of unmasked strangers in a hotel ballroom all day unimaginable.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I was attending the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's annual conference in San Diego at the invitation of Dr. Mark Feldman, an author, professor, and psychiatrist who is one of the world's foremost experts on Munchausen by proxy and other factitious disorders in the world.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
A quick search of his name produces hundreds of interviews with him on the subject as well as his significant contributions to the literature, including four books and innumerable research papers. He and I had been introduced by journalist Devorah Myers after she'd interviewed both of us for her excellent Longreads piece, The Disease of Deceit, about a friend who'd faked having cancer.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Mark and I became fast friends and began pairing up on interviews. He asked me to come to San Diego to meet with APSAC's MBP committee, a cross-disciplinary group of child abuse professionals who represent the only cohesive effort to combat a form of abuse so taboo and misunderstood that even many of the most hardened social workers, detectives, and psychologists want nothing to do with it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
By the time I met with the committee, I was an experienced public speaker. Yet as I paced my hotel room, inhaling the ocean breeze and trying to find serenity in the waves that crashed just beyond the line of palm trees, I was nervous. Previous attempts to tell this story hadn't gone well, and I didn't know what to expect from the committee.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The global pandemic that would reshape life as we knew it was still several months in the future, but my life was in its own dramatic state of flux. I was a first-time mom trying to navigate the exhausting back and forth of being a working parent. My daughter, Fiona, was eight months old and I was launching my third novel, We Came Here to Forget, at one of my favorite local bookstores.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I wasn't sure how receptive a group so packed with advanced degrees and professional accolades would be to a novelist whose sole qualification in the arena was her own sad story. In the hotel's conference room, I was immediately met with warmth and appreciation as the group gathered around the big table with hotel pastries and hot coffee.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It felt like a meeting of old friends more than stuffy academics. In the rare instances when I tried to explain to someone what had happened in my family, I had been met with dropped jaws, wan faces, and occasionally tears. I had never encountered nodding heads and knowing looks.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It was the first time I understood that what I'd witnessed in my family was not a bizarre outlier but part of an eerily consistent pattern of behavior. I'd been utterly alone with this story for almost a decade. Then, all at once, I wasn't.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
This feeling deepened the next day as I sat in the front row listening to Mike Weber and Sheriff Bill Weyburn unpack the case of Brittany Phillips, which we'll cover in this audiobook, for a rapt audience. I'm not a religious person, but sitting in that nondescript hotel ballroom, I was overcome by the powerful sensation that I was exactly where I was supposed to be.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Bill Weyburn and Mike Weber are straight out of central casting. Whatever comes to your mind when you think Texas Sheriff, Bill embodies it. He stands a towering six feet four, not counting the additional inches of his signature 10-gallon hat, and sports a glorious mustache and a gleaming belt buckle.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I could imagine him being intimidating under the right circumstances, likely a job requirement, but he also exudes warmth. When I first introduced myself after his presentation, I asked if I could give him a hug and found myself fighting tears. Bill was the first person I'd ever met who'd had a case of Munchausen by proxy in his family. His story had left very few dry eyes in that crowd.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
His was also the first story that gave me any hope. Mike hadn't been present at the committee meeting, but I knew he was a member, and Dr. Feldman has spoken highly of him. Tall, with a flat-top haircut, in a no-nonsense suit and tie, Mike was an endearing combination of tough and humble.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I complimented him on his presentation, and his response was an aw shucks, just doing my job mumble that I've come to expect from him, and that belies the truly remarkable work he's done over the course of his career. I quickly discovered that Mike has an extraordinary capacity to run headlong into the hornet's nest of cases that make other seasoned detectives run for the hills.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I told him I was an author, and he mentioned, bashfully, that people were always telling him he should write a book. He'd structure it around the three cases that had stuck with him the most, the ones that gave him a full understanding of the complex issue he'd spent the last several hours educating the audience about. You should, I said, and meant it. Oh, I don't know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I explained to Mike that I'd worked in book publishing for almost 20 years, and a great many people had told me their book ideas. They're almost never good, I emphasized, but this one is good. Mike's serious detective exterior cracked as he let out a full belly laugh.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
By the time I met him, Mike had worked on approximately 30 medical child abuse cases and secured more convictions than anyone else in the country by leagues. But these three women's cases had made such a deep impression on him that they forever shaped his understanding of this abuse. Hope Ybarra, Brittany Phillips, and Mary Welch.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It tells of an Olympic skier whose relationships and career are turned upside down by a family catastrophe. Book publications, with their touring demands, media pushes, endless social media shilling, and alternating waves of excitement and dread, are always draining. But this one was like nothing I'd been through before.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
These were the ones that introduced him to what Munchausen by proxy could look like. how it could masquerade as love, how it could manifest online, and how a case could fall apart in the hands of the wrong official, no matter how strong the evidence. Hope Ybarra was Mike's first full investigation into medical child abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
He'd never seen anything like her, a con artist so committed to her version of reality that it went on for the better part of a decade before anyone caught on. The facts of the case were so chilling that he realized nothing was off the table when it came to these types of offenders.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And we've definitely learned a lot from the progress that has been made around child sex abuse, which I think it still is underreported. I think most people accept that child sex abuse is real and not rare. Yeah. Certainly anybody that's informed on the topic knows that, but I think that did not always used to be that way, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And it was seen as this like stranger danger type of aberration, you know, one in a million sort of thing that happened. And then our society grappling with it sort of went through some interesting hurdles along the way.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
a major one being the Satanic Panic, where you have all these stories about, you know, daycare workers and underground, you know, the McMartin case and all these like underground tunnels, which my take on it is that that was society grappling with something that we really, really didn't want to look at, which is child sex abuse, and that actually it was easier and more comforting to think that it was Satanic daycare workers
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MBP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
because that's a problem that you can ostensibly solve. But I think it's more comforting to think that there's some evil system that you can kind of shut down than it is to confront the reality, which is that this is Boy Scout leaders, priests, coaches, dads, uncles who are doing this, right? It's most likely to be someone that that child knows.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And it's not going to be someone who is an obvious creep all the time. And it's so similar with Munchausen. And that's where we get into kind of the hullabaloo that happened around the Maya Kowalski case with the film Take Care of Maya and a lot of the coverage that really followed in lockstep with that, where they presented it as a medical kidnapping case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Medical kidnapping is our satanic panic, essentially. It's like, you know, this idea that doctors are just separating families, right? Like doctors don't make those decisions. Doctors evaluate abuse. It's a legitimate subspecialty. There's just so much disinformation around that. And the Maya Kowalski case was sort of the most high profile one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But I think that there is a similar dynamic going on there. And certainly with Munchausen by proxy, it's not a one in a million thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think the behavior is along a spectrum, but I think it's far more common and getting worse because of social media, because of which I would assume actually some of the behaviors that you all talk about on betrayal and this sort of more male deception and cheating and that kind of thing, like talking to Spencer Herron case, like social media has given
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
people unfettered and unlimited access to attention. And, you know, I think it was Dr. Romani says in the TV series, like, oh, that's the dangerous combination, right? Attention seeking plus lack of empathy. I mean, that is exactly how you describe Munchausen by proxy behaviors. And so I think there's every reason to believe that it's getting worse. And that is a scary world to live in.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but like the world is not what you thought. That mom of the sick child who's raising money on GoFundMe and seems like the most heroic mother you've ever met. could be the scariest person you've ever met. And so I think that's why these conspiracy theories around medical kidnapping get traction because the reporting on it is very thin.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Child abuse professionals do not make good money. Child abuse pediatrics is a highly trained and not well-paid subspecialty. They get trashed in the media. They get accused of snatching babies. I mean, it's not for the faint of heart. And also just like that work, like, Doing that frontline work of rushing to the hospital to see a child that's been abused is obviously emotionally grueling work.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
There isn't any scenario where you could make it make sense that doctors just want to do that. It's a nightmare for the hospitals. The hospitals can get sued. You know, it's like there's no motivation. But I think the reason those stories still take off in the media is that people's discomfort around the reality of this abuse is so, so deep.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
If you've listened to our recent season five mailbag episode, you will know that we ended up doing an impromptu ad for Lume because that is how much not only I, but the whole Nobody Should Believe Me team loves this product. And most of the team actually lives in Texas, so you know their deodorant is working extra hard.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash believe to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash believe. We'll include that information at the link in our show notes. And remember that shopping with our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Something that we're constantly confronting in True Crime. is having to tell these hyperbolic versions of true crime stories when in reality, the more relatable and important ones are the ones that are kind of in the everyday. I remember when we were covering Ashley Litton's case in Riverton, Utah for Betrayal Season 2,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You reached out to ICAC, which is an Internet Crimes Against Children task force that every state has. And I remember one of the task force members asked, why are you covering this case? Like, I deal with, you know, perpetrators that are 10 times worse than Jason Linton. Why this one? And my response was no. I don't want the hyperbolic version CSAM case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You know, I want to meet people in a very average everyday story because that's actually what's happening. And so I feel like that's the same for a lot of these mothers who are, if they're on the news, it's like this monster of a mother that did this. And it's like, you know, we have to hear about the extremes instead of leaning into the reality of what's happening. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I mean, I became a media outlet because I was so fed up with the way that media was covering this case. Right. And it's been interesting over the last few years as I've kind of jumped first, I guess. I've noticed that awareness is increasing, especially because of the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case, which was so high profile.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I do think that there's more of a conversation happening than there was five years ago. But, you know, there was like so much reticence to talking about it. Like I remember when my novel came out and like I had written like an essay for it and that got killed at the last minute. And there was just like a lot of like, no, no, no, no, no. If there's not a conviction, you can't talk about it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I was like, if we're not talking about the cases where there aren't convictions, then we're not talking about the problem. Right. Like when you get into... the extremes and allows people to put it at arm's length. That person is a monster. That person is a psychopath that like I would see coming and this would never happen to me. And that's not reality.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I think that was why for me, it was so important to talk about my own experience because the other thing that we do with perpetrators of crimes, especially if it's something where it just feels so like deeply, deeply, deeply wrong, We often say, oh, well, that person must have had a horrible childhood. That person must have been abused as a child. There must be some like dots I can connect.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I think that that's part of the let me tell myself a story about this that makes me feel safe. Right. We're like, as long as X, Y, Z doesn't happen in my family, we won't end up with one of these perpetrators in our family. And that's just not the case. Right. I mean, my sister did not buy anybody else's, you know, nobody else witnessed anything traumatic happening to her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You were not raised in abusive household like her. It's not something where, oh, there's some straight line that you can draw. And I think that's really uncomfortable for people. I think people really want to believe that something awful has to happen to a person to make them like this. And I don't think that's true.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think it is that combination of lack of empathy and need for attention that really can supercharge these behaviors. Totally.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think one of the things that I also felt was really relatable and the circumstances are so different, but just knowing your sister's story and having to go in front of the judge in family court. Like you're dealing with family court and criminal court are two separate things. And the issues that I've seen a lot of the women that I deal with on betrayal having to navigate the criminal side.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And once that's over and, you know, the father of their children are released, then they're dealing with family court, either in their divorce or child support or dealing with visitation. It is a whole other ball of wax where parents have a ton of rights, rightfully so, but they're in situations where kids are at risk. It's a really scary system because they are two separate entities.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah. And I think that that's something that the vagaries of that like really is lost on people that have not had to interact with these systems. And I think people here and a lot of this, again, when I'm talking about like, you know, my kicks and bugs work for NBC and his whole do no harm series. Like a lot of this is I think intentionally created a confusion where it'll be like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Courts said doctors disagree. Like courts said, you know, this and that. Right. And you're like, OK, which court under what circumstances? Like, give me more information. Right. Yep. And everything goes to the family court first because those are less, you know, those investigations take less time than the criminal investigation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So we end up in a lot of situations where the family court gives the children back during an active criminal investigation, which just I think sounds ridiculous. insane, but that happens all the time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Likewise, you know, there's this thing of like, well, doctors at this hospital said this, but other doctors disagree without ever mentioning that those other doctors are people who were hired as expert witnesses by the parent defending themselves. Right. Important information.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And, like, I think people don't realize that the courts don't take the steps that you would think in the face of a criminal conviction to, like, limit that person's access to their own children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Like, for instance, you know, we just had a case that we were talking about on the show, the Jessica Jones case in Texas, where she got a 60-year prison sentence and the courts did not terminate her parental rights. And so now the dad has to pay to do that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So just the onus that ends up on a protective parent in any child abuse situation, I think people have no idea what that looks like or just people don't realize how easy it is actually to get access to children again.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah. In the case of Stacey Rutherford and Tyler from season three of Betrayal, I think the courts got it right. So for people that don't know, Stacey was married to a man named Justin and he was a doctor in Reading, Pennsylvania. She had two children in a previous marriage and then met Justin and they got married. They had two kids of their own.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And he was, by all accounts, a great husband, an incredible doctor, beloved by his community. Turns out that he was abusing Stacey's son from her first marriage, his stepson, since he was 11. And... Tyler didn't disclose until he was, I want to say, 17. So a long time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And, you know, Justin also tried to hire a hitman while he was in prison to murder Tyler so that he wouldn't testify in court, which is what we cover in season three of Betrayal. And what the judge did is not only did he get He'll be basically in jail for the rest of his life. I don't want to misquote what his sentencing was.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But he isn't allowed to speak to his biological children or have any contact with the family until he's done his probation. Basically, for the rest of his life. And so I remember talking to Stacey and Tyler and them feeling like really complicated emotions because they deeply love Justin. Like the person that they knew as a human being, like Tyler loved his stepdad.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But then there was the monster, the abuser. They were two different people to him. And that was a scenario where the court really contemplated a lifetime of abuse and grooming and narcissistic behavior and just got it and knocked it out of the park. And I was like, heck, yeah, like this is a Pennsylvania. Like I was really proud. So, yeah, like sometimes we talk about things getting wrong.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Like that was a scenario where I think the courts got it right. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And it's, you know, it's so complicated. And I think it kind of goes back to this question of once you have identified a person as this type of abuser, where it has so much in common, my test, my proxy with with child sex abuse, where it is, you know, an extremely compulsive behavior. It's one of those things where, again, I think like and I think we can
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
more easily recognize it in child sex abuse cases where it's like, OK, if you cross that line with a child, you're not a safe adult, period. Like if you're capable of doing that, like, you know, whether or not you should be thrown in jail for the rest of your life or we should do something else with you is sort of a separate question. But like you are not a that's why we put people on registries.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
That's why we say they can't go near schools. Like we have no such attitude towards much as my proxy perpetrators. Yeah. There is this idea that it is like some mental illness that people are sort of, quote, suffering from. And much like child sex abuse, there is an underlying psychiatric disorder. A fact is just sort of imposed on another.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It's very similar to pedophilic disorder, which is also in the DSM. Also very challenging to treat. Also very, you know, unlikely that a perpetrator will take enough accountability to be treated for it. And it doesn't reduce someone's culpability. And it's like a very complicated thing that happens when like children always want their parents. That's such a biological drive for kids.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
That's a survival mechanism. even if their parent is not capable of loving them or being safe with them, like they will always kind of have this longing. So you can have a situation where someone is separated from their parent and then they really, really, really idealize that parent And don't then protect themselves. I mean, it's really complicated.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And then for survivors that have fully processed the abuse or not going that direction of saying this didn't happen to me. Right. Fully understand, fully process the abuse. I mean, we saw Joe in our fourth season really struggling with this with with their mom of like they totally recognize what their mom did to them and they understand a lot about the dynamics and they still love that person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I mean, I would say most of the survivors I know are either low contact or no contact, but it's really complicated to navigate that relationship. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you for watching. Thank you for watching.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you for watching. Thank you for watching.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for watching.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you. Thank you for watching. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes or And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you very much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you very much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you very much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So today we are talking all things true crime and how we handle this strange and wonderful career that both of us have found ourselves in. I recently was myself a guest on Betrayal Weekly, and I cannot tell you how much I admire this team. They bring so much integrity and care to their reporting and their work.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I'd love to start off with just your background. How did you get into being a true crime podcaster?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You know, I often joke that I am a recovering TV executive. And so I come I hail from the TV space. But I work for a company called Glass Entertainment Group, and we specialize in reality TV and documentaries. And for about seven and a half, eight years, I was overseeing our business department. So I was the executive in charge of production.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So I did all the boring things in TV, which is like the budget, the financing, like all the hard stuff. And my colleague Ben and I were constantly working through legal deals with our development department. And we were seeing great stories getting passed by TV executives and networks.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And one story that came across our desk, we were working with Kim Goldman, who is the sister of Ron Goldman, who was murdered by OJ Simpson. And we were trying to sell something in TV with her, but a lot of TV networks weren't interested in the project unless OJ was involved or OJ was attached or we could guarantee an interview with OJ. And this was back when OJ was still living.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think he had just gotten out of prison and was living in Vegas at the time. But my colleagues and I really believe that there was a story here even without OJ's voice. So we decided to make it a podcast. And instead of telling the OJ Simpson story, we told the story of people who lived it. And so that's how we got started in the podcast space.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
That's a great answer. I mean, I really see like that imprint for the work you've done after that, you know, and also that just really plugs into what I think is interesting about true crime stories, which is the sort of long tail of them and the way that they impact the people who are pulled into them. Yeah. So one of the things you're known for is your work on Betrayal and now Betrayal Weekly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and today I have a wonderful crossover episode to share with you. This is my conversation with journalist and podcast host Andrea Gunning of the Betrayal and Betrayal Weekly podcast, as well as a really phenomenal show that we shared a few weeks back, There and Gone South Street.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
How did you come to that story that was the first season of Betrayal?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It's all kind of related. So Jen Faison is the subject of season one in her marriage and how the marriage unraveled. But she works in television. She's a television executive producer. So we kind of are in the same universe. And Jen had heard Confronting O.J. Simpson and reached out to her agent. And her agent reached out to me and my colleague, Ben, for an initial conversation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But the universe has an interesting way of working because at this time I was getting out of a relationship. I had moved out of my boyfriend's house. I had discovered a lot of deception, not to the magnitude that Jen had. And I was kind of recovering from understanding, like, why was I in this relationship? Why was I ignoring a lot of signs?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Was I ignoring it or was it like, you know, all of these questions that were coming to the surface. So it was like I was meeting Jen at the perfect time. I couldn't relate to the magnitude of what Jen was going through. But I knew like as it was like, I don't even want to say as a woman, as a woman, but as a human being, I understood the pain when she pitched me her story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And it's just always really heartening when you see the behind the scenes of a show that you love and the vibes are this immaculate. Not always the case, unfortunately. We are currently working hard on season six at the moment, which will be coming at you in June.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I understood her anger and her confusion. And I found like this emotional access. And I thought if we could maybe do something with that, people will relate and maybe heal. And so just that relatability and that timing of it just so happened to work out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that that shows up in the quality of the season and just the emotional depth of it. And I'm really interested in what you said about this idea of not coming from a place of anger. This is a really complicated part of interviewing people about these stories, right? Because they have every right to be angry.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You have every right to want to even go on a sort of revenge journey. But doing that on a podcast is not actually helpful to anyone, right? It's not helpful for the listener. It's not really ethical to sort of try and get someone in that energy, even if it can be compelling in its own right. And I have the same experience.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
sort of thing when I talk to folks who are often dealing with really extreme betrayals. And then on top of that, you know, the abuse to them or abuse to their children or children that they care about. And it's, I think, really important to make sure that someone is ready to have that conversation. It was important to me, you know, I started off
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
With telling my own story in the first two seasons of the show, kind of bit by bit. And I sort of revisit pieces of it from time to time. But like, I had to wait, you know, a decade until I was ready to talk about it. I was like, it's such a vulnerable thing and it's such a vulnerable thing to put out there and then have people react to.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
There are so many points along this journey where getting on a mic would have been the absolute wrong choice for me. Right. And I think there's also like the expectation setting because if you're talking about a case where it's either an unsolved case or it's a case where there wasn't a good outcome or it's a case where like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And in the meantime, we are bringing you a lot more Case File stuff, including our coverage of the Ratty Children's case in San Diego, which we are working on now. If you followed our coverage of the Kowalski case, boy oh boy are you going to notice some similarities.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
the person you're talking to wants some action to be taken by authorities. That's not something that we can make happen. Can't always guarantee. Right. And, like, so I think that's also, like, a really tricky part of it of making sure that who I'm talking to, like, yes, we're going to put all this out there and... I think people are going to care.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think people are going to get something out of it. They're going to learn something important. They're going to relate with this experience. I hope you get a deep personal catharsis from sharing this. But like the cavalry is unlikely to mount up because unfortunately, that's just not often how it works. And this may not end with answers.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah. And that was my worry producing There and Gone, which came out this past summer in 2024. And I have to give iHeart a lot of credit because we pitched them this story and there wasn't an ending and we couldn't guarantee that we would find or solve this case. And so you're taking a lot of risk.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And then the partnerships that you make with distributors are also taking a lot of risk for what's the payoff? You know, what's the audience going to leave thinking? Are they going to walk away feeling satisfied? And, you know, these are people like we're studying and we're exploring stories of people and their loss and their trauma and their grief.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And so we're not always going to get a payoff that makes sense to everybody. You know, I like telling stories that really show the complexity of the human experience. And I think There and Gone is an example of that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah. Can you kind of give us an intro to the case and how you got interested in it?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Sure. It's the story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo. 20 years ago, two 30-somethings just literally vanished off of South Street in Philadelphia, which is basically like the Bourbon Street of Philadelphia, the busiest place for nightlife. They were seen leaving a bar and then never seen again. And then until this day, no one knows what happened. Was it an accident? Was it murder for hire?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And so I remember this because I was, I think, a senior in high school. And it was terrifying because one of the victims, his parents have a bakery that I grew up going to. And both of their families look so much like mine in different ways. They do Sunday dinner. I come from an Italian family. We do Sunday dinner. You know, they gamble on Sunday over football bets.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
As always, if you want to get in touch, you can send us an email or voice memo at hello at nobody should believe me dot com or leave us a comment on Spotify. If you're listening on Apple, you know we love those five-star reviews. Please and thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Like, I'm wearing my Eagles jersey. Like, this feels like this could be my own cousin this happened to. So it was very personal to me. And so it was just this loss that kind of
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
reverberated throughout our entire community and continues because how do two people in their mid-30s just vanish just literally into thin air and when we were exploring doing the story I thought the families would be very interested but we would struggle with law enforcement
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But then I soon realized that the FBI really needed our help because the FBI knows that the more coverage they can get of this case, more people will be able to like call in and feel like, let me just do my part. Let me 20 years later, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to make the phone call. I'm going to say what I know and be done with it. And.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I live in this city and there are parts of this city where this crime isn't a big question mark. There are parts of this city and neighborhoods in this city where people know exactly what happened or they feel like it's a fact. They communicate it like it's a fact. I know who did it. I know why it's done. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Like how a whole neighborhood in one city, there's like this understood rumor of what happened to two random people that have no connection. And that was the neighborhood in which I lived. So... To me, it was like, I just want to help these families. You know, we didn't solve the crime. Yet. But there was enough people that actually wrote into the FBI for them to reopen and assign new agents.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So I feel like I did my job.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Hell yeah. I mean, that's amazing. And I think this is one of the most interesting parts of working in the true crime sphere and why it's so important to like... take this job seriously and be really responsible is because it does have real world impacts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And yeah, I mean, this question of law enforcement, it's like, so I, the case that I'm working on right now for our next season is one that I am hoping that some action will happen on. How realistic that is, who knows? But I do think that it is and can be a powerful tool to getting law enforcement involved. And that can be the kind of thing where you get
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And of course, the best way to support the show, if you are able, is to join us on the subscriber feeds on Apple and Patreon, where you will get two extra episodes a month, ad-free listening, and the entire new season on the day it launches. So with that, here's my conversation with Andrea Gunning.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
you know, political will for a local prosecutor to actually file charges on something where they might not otherwise. Yeah. You can, you know, get people who are making those decisions at the police department to assign some extra muscle to it. You can, you know, flush out some new information from the community.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Well, the first thing that just to interject, I think one of the biggest things that I feel like we both, you know, Betrayal, trauma and deception is one thing. Your show covers factitious disorder. And although they're very different, there's so many commonalities between people who live through or have
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
a relationship with Munchausens and Munchausens by proxy, and people who experience deception and betrayal. The topics we cover on betrayal are extreme, but sadly, they're not uncommon. Yeah. And in season three, we really focus on male sexual abuse. And we learn that one in six men have experienced this issue. But the really scary reality is
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It actually is probably more, but it just goes unreported because of the stigma around it. And I just feel like These are two taboo issues, you know, Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And to take that seriously and talk about it to help dismantle that stigma, it's such a large hurdle.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah, that's really sweet. One of my best friends has a daughter that's a few years older than my daughter, but they are super buddies. And truly, it's the dream, right? Otherwise, you kind of have to try and make friends with the parents of whoever your kid makes friends with, and that's a whole crapshoot.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
So yeah, I totally understand why that would be, especially because you and Sophie had all these unique things in common with the transracial adoption. you know, being people of faith and all of that. This is one of the only times I've made a season and told the story without starting with a direct source.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I think one of the hardest things for me about covering this was that I did not want C&M to be reduced to sort of characters from a true crime drama. And most of what we know about them was from Sophie's narrative about them. When sort of with M, the gymnastics stuff was the most prevalent. And then with C, obviously, the story of illness and the story of...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes, And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Hello, it's Andrea.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Um, thank you for sharing that. It's a really nice to just hear some, some stuff about who they are as people. Um, so tell us where this takes a turn. How did you come to find out about the podcast?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And today we have something really special for you. That's a bit of a first here on Nobody Should Believe Me. In the months that we were reporting on the Sophie Hartman case, we reached out to dozens of potential sources to try and get as complete a picture about this case as possible.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And while a number of people had quite a lot to say, the majority of them didn't feel comfortable going on record. And listen, I get it. There's nothing in it for anybody to talk to me. I always hope that people will be willing to speak up on behalf of the kids, but everyone has to evaluate their risk in getting involved. And I respect that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated. The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
What followed was a year of upheaval, violence, and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North. In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But then, last fall, I heard from someone that I wasn't even aware of. And last week, that person decided that she wanted to go on the record. I've been out and about doing stuff for the book the last couple of weeks, and a lot of folks have been asking me how I handle being so knee-deep in all this dark stuff all the time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. So Sophie told you about the podcast, but she didn't tell you whose sister I was, did she?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And the reality is, it can be hard, but it's also extremely rewarding a lot of the time, especially in those moments where I know that the show has reached someone who really needed to hear it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
No, I mean, you're right. It's absolutely earth shattering when you find something like this out. Yeah. That is just like, I think, a deeply shared experience for everyone who goes through a case, right? It's just like, yeah, it's one of those things where you remember exactly where you were. You know, there's like a before and after of your whole life with that kind of thing. So at some point.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I get an email that was sent to like the, you know, general email box for the show and it was anonymous. And, but I thought, oh, this has to be about Sophie. Can you tell me like what made you decide to reach out to me directly?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And while I bear witness to an awful lot of horrific behavior in this line of work, I also get to witness people like Chalice, who we're talking to today, make the incredibly brave choice to see the truth and speak up. And that's what keeps me going. So without further ado, please meet my brave friend, Chalice Howard. I wanted to start just by asking you, how do you know Sophie Hartman?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah, and then so shortly after that message came in, we got on the phone and I think we talked for like, I don't even, like two and a half hours maybe? We talked for a long time. It was at least two or three hours, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it was just really... extraordinary to hear from you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You know, I'm, I'm like, I'm aware that like my voice is going out into the world without me and that people are listening to it. And, you know, you hope it, you hope it moves people. And one of the things that I always hope is I'm like, I hope this show reaches the people it needs to reach, right? Like that's the whole point of it, right? And so I was very moved by the fact that it reached you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And it is deeply ironic that Sophie is the person who made that happen. Right. Yeah, it was kind of amazing to like just have these like, you know, lengthy conversations. I mean, the reality is not everyone... most people in fact, don't deal with coming to this realization like the same way that I did, right? Because we had really parallel experiences of, I really remember, you know, like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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That conversation with my parents where we finally sat down and said the thing and said what it was. I remember having that conversation with my parents where we finally just said it all out loud. And it was. It was like a tear in the fabric of the universe, you know? Yeah. And then we were grappling with what to do next. And I felt all those same things that...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
you know you have gone through feeling like a traitor feeling like i was betraying her knowing that there was no possibility of sort of confronting her directly about it because i think right i i suspect maybe you have had some similar experiences with sophie because it sounds like you knew that right that's like one of someone you're really really close to you would hopefully be able to sort of sit down with them and say like hey man i'm having these feelings and i'm just like i need to talk this through and because you can't sort of have that like boulder of doubt you know in the
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Like, yeah, I'd had enough previous experiences with trying to sort of confront my sister on things or sort of trying to, you know, like, like, hold her accountable in some way or like asking her questions when I had questions and getting that shut down and being dealt with this like really emotional, you know, how could you reaction that I knew that like that wasn't a possibility.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so we just had like such a common experience, I think, with that. Right, right. just like you i was like well but like i don't see how there's any other option but to try and do now whatever i can to sort of protect the kids and i think especially because you were close to sophie and in touch with sophie and were someone who had a relationship with the girls
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I was very concerned while I was making this season that there was... It's unlike the other seasons of the show where I've made or I've been making it with the family members, with people who are in contact with the survivors or victims or what have you. And, you know, the... Cases I've covered previously, even the Maya Kowalski case, those children were out of danger, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And, like, that is not how either of us, I think, now see this situation. And so I think it was a huge relief for me to have someone that... could see how this family was doing because I do care about how my reporting impacts the people it covers. I care about that a lot. And I did feel
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
conflicted to some degree about the fact that I was covering this without the participation of the family and without the consent of the girls right and that that does feel feel different different for me than the other stories I've I've covered and I think that was why we took you know again measures to like obscure their identities as much as we could and and all that but um but it felt nonetheless important to cover it especially because there was
Nobody Should Believe Me
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There was this lawsuit that Sophie was waging. Right. And that wasn't what the evidence showed. And I just thought, especially with the sort of climate that's been created with the Kowalski case, I just thought, I better cover this before Netflix gets a hold of it, you know, really. And so I think it was a tremendous relief to have contact with you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so, you know, for a number of months, we were in touch, well, you were still in touch with Sophie. And I know that was really... uncomfortable for you. Can you, can you kind of talk through like what that experience was like and what our conversations were around that, like why we decided to sort of go about things that way?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And what was your relationship with her throughout these past 10 years?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Well, first of all, nothing that you have ever said to me sounded crazy. I find I have a lot of these conversations with folks that are in these same situations. I was like, the story is crazy. You are not crazy. And I think that is one of the – after effects of gaslighting, right, is that you just find yourself really like grasping for reality.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And yeah, having that shared experience is so powerful, because even though I do now know other people who've been through it, it's still a relatively unusual experience, you know, and I was and am so concerned about these girls. And Like I said, I take the ethics of what I'm doing really seriously. And I don't hate Sophie either. I'm not out to get her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And so I was worried about the impact that it would have on her. And I think one of the things that like, and I really, you know, adore my team and my producer Mariah is so deeply ethical.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I really have a wonderful team, especially on this, our researcher and one of our producers, Aaron Ajayi and Nicole Hill, who worked with us in the season and just was like a really such a solid team to talk through some of these issues.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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things with and like how can we best approach this and how can we do our best to mitigate any unintended bad consequences on this family and so it really was such a relief to be in touch with you and I think there's this question of like Sophie's family and I think one of the reasons that I
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
connected with this case other than the fact that my sister was literally involved was that like Sophie is a very strong parallel to Megan right because there are these other cases that we've covered where where they come from these you know chaotic families and I think there's a real knee-jerk thing to say like I think especially because the most well-known case is
Nobody Should Believe Me
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is the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case where Dee Dee Blanchard really did come from this like very troubled family and there was a whole bunch of stuff about like her father and you know I think that people really want there to be an explanation for why someone does these things and they want to be like oh well they were abused as a child or what have you or they were deprived in some way or they had you know all these stressors and certainly those things can contribute to child abuse as a whole
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
medical child abuse is in sort of a different category. There is no known sort of like adverse childhood experience big connection. And I think Sophie was from such a similar family in some ways. My family is not religious, but both Megan and Sophie are upper middle class white women who are very polished, very presentable, very well-educated, have all those trappings.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I, you know, and use the same very expensive attorney to get their children returned to them. It's just like that those pieces were so compelling to me and sort of like explaining how the system works the way it does. And I'm so compelled by like. our family faced the same choice and we went that way.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And her parents went the other way and have continued to fund and support and enable everything that she's done. And you talked about wanting to hate me. I sort of wanted to hate them, or at very least I felt a ton of frustration with them. And...
Nobody Should Believe Me
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It was really interesting talking to you about what they're like and what you've said, which is like the other people that we talked to on background for the story said the same thing. Like, this is a really nice family. Like, they're like, are really good people, well-liked in their community. You know, again, it would be easier, I think, if we, it would be easier if the people who were...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
enabling monstrous things were monstrous themselves, and that's not the case with the Hartmans, right? No, it's not. And I think one of the things, in addition to hoping that you could keep some line of communication with the girls, we were hoping that you could get through to the Hartmans. Yeah. Can you talk about your conversations with Sam and your kind of attempts to maybe reach out to her?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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if you can go back and I know you've been on a real journey, so it's can be hard to put yourself back in that mindset. But like, if someone would have asked you before all of this, like, what is like, who is Sophie? What is she like? Like, what do you think you would have said about her?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. I mean, it does feel so familiar, right? Like you think about these sort of things that I brushed off or the times I did defend her, you know, it was like when she had her fake pregnancy and then like somehow. I managed to blame the boyfriend for that, which is like, I don't know how I made those mental leaps, but I did. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Cause it was just like, yeah, it was definitely cause he stressed her out and then she just faked a whole pregnancy. It's like, that's not, that's not an explanation that made sense, but emotionally to me, it made sense at the time. And then thinking back on, yeah, these periods where before she had cut me off, right. Where like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I was thinking about this the other day because there are, you know, there are such frequent financial shenanigans that come up in these cases. And we talked about some of that with Sophie's case, but like, you know, previous to any of the pregnancy stuff, like actually right before the pregnancy stuff, you know, Megan had committed check fraud.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And my parents bailed her out, but she was very mad about it. like, quote, siding with them, because I was like, well, you know, you did, like, do the thing. Like, I can't understand why they're mad. And then she didn't talk to me for, like, three months. And then when she got, quote, pregnant, that was when she got back in touch with all of us.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So it was already like, oh, any attempt to, like, confront her will be seen as a betrayal. So it's like, yes, they do the wrong thing that is harmful, and then somehow everyone else has to apologize for it. It's very bizarre, but it's very, like...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It's believable to me that Sophie's younger sister is also in that dynamic with her and, like, understands that, like, you support their version of events 100% or you are dead to them. And that is what happened with, you know, like, I know what would have happened to Sophie's parents if they had declined to fund all of that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I presumably it would be the same thing that happened to my parents when they declined to help make and file a lawsuit against Seattle Children's. Um, because, you know, then they never saw their grandchild again. Um, so, so I think, I think the fear, the fear is real. The con, you know, like that and understandable and I'm empathetic to it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I'm not empathetic to putting that over the safety of the children. And, um, I also think, you know, one of my sort of lingering questions, and I think you have some insight into this because you have been sort of on both sides of it, believing the narrative and then seeing the reality, is that, you know, Sam and presumably...
Nobody Should Believe Me
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their mom and to some extent their dad, you know, were sitting in this trial, heard those doctors present, saw that evidence, have seen everything that I have seen and that you have seen and much more because all of this took place in family court.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And so there is presumably a large amount of evidence that has not made it into the public record or at least a large amount of narrative that hasn't made it into the public record. And You mentioned seeing these reports in the press, reading some of the charging documents. You're a very smart, thoughtful person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You're not a person that would read to me as someone who just hops on board with the conspiracy theory of the week. And yet this narrative of medical kidnapping, right? And you'd said even you'd seen sort of the Maya story before you'd encountered the show and everything and sort of thought, oh, there's another example.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And you saw my sister's case and you were like, oh, there's another example, which is like how confirmation bias works for all of us. But like, why do you think that made sense to you? Like, how did you sort of like see it in a different light? Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Does that make sense? No, it really does. And I think, you know, I will tell you that when I have been looking at
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
True Story Media. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
these sort of stories about medical kidnapping in particular like as a whole or like the separations that happen and i mean i think like the the biggest misconception to my mind is that like the doctors are doing it like doctors don't have the power to do that like doctors do a medical evaluation and then they present that evidence that they collect to whatever authorities are making those decisions so
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
The fact that they place the blame so directly on the doctors, you know, that like, oh, this is a this is a conspiracy headed up by Dr. Weister at Children's like that to me just as a framework is is very suspicious.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And now that is not to say that especially and I will tell you, like, if it is a nonwhite parent or, you know, a parent that is not like middle class or middle class, especially white.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like then you sort of look at like, all right, there could be other things going on with the system here that are unfair, that are, you know, that are dragging this out, that are, you know, meaning this person can't afford. But like. It just doesn't track for a white mom, let alone a white mom who can afford one of the best defense attorneys in town. Sorry, that's not how the system works.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I understand where you're coming from. And I think a lot of us do understand that there are problems within, quote, the system. And the system is many systems. They are all different in every state. There are different problems with different ones. They affect different populations differently.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So there's so much nuance and to sort of group it under this whole thing of like families are, you know, being torn apart by these doctors. And then I find it especially galling that given that there are families that are so disenfranchised by the child protection apparatus.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And we had that wonderful expert, Dr. Jessica Price on to talk about her book where she was talking about some of those stories. And those were, you know, yeah, Black moms that had been really put through the wringer. And those were really like sort of deeply human stories.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And then all of these, you know, like the fact that most removals happened because of neglect, which is far sort of, you know, that's far more attached to sort of like resources than abuses. And these stories that have been highlighted in Take Care of Maya, in my Kicks and Box work, um, in USA Today and elsewhere. Like, these are not those stories, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like, if you want to go and find extraordinarily sad stories about families who've had their kids taken away unfairly, those stories are out there. Those are not the ones they're featuring. And I think it makes me doubly mad that, you know, that people like my sister Megan are
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And Sophie Hartman and Jack Kowalski, they're exploiting then that experience of parents who do unjustly have their kids taken away. And it's just sort of like insult upon insult, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And, you know, obviously given that you've known Sophie for 10 years, you knew her when this case with her younger daughter, C, and this investigation was happening. And you even came out to the Seattle area to visit with her during that. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, twice. And what was your understanding of what was happening in that case?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah, and I remember, you know, you and I talking through this piece of things while I was researching the case, and that that was very helpful for me as a person who did not grow up as a person of faith.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I really wanted to approach the evangelical piece of this with care because I don't want to make it – the point is not to dunk on people who are evangelicals or people who are Christians or be like, look at these – idiots or whatever that kind of thing, because that's not how I feel.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And yet I think this piece about, like it really struck me reading Sophie's memoirs, reading her journals, just reading how she presented herself and how she appeared to really sort of even think about herself when she was in her own time, on her own time, writing journals, presumably not for an outside audience.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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that that really struck me of like oh well that's pretty convenient framework for someone who wants to do this because then you don't have to assign any human motivations that make sense to the people who are out to get you just be like satan um you know and it's sort of a it's like a thought thought it shuts down any sort of further questioning um and it was really interesting to see even how sophie you know her relationships with these churches and um i
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I have obviously deep ideological differences with like the churches that she went to. And yet with the church here, with Pursuit, I mean, I feel like those people were victimized by her. And I think that there's every evidence that they really did care about her and care about her girls and try and support them. And, you know, I really feel a lot of empathy for them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I just wonder, too, like, you know, we were sort of talking about with Sam and even with where you were at before this of, like, there's this desire, like, when you're trying to maintain a relationship with a person like this and you love that person and you don't want to lose that person. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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There is this thing of like, I think instinctually, you know, if you look too closely at it for too long. Yeah. it might break through. And so you just kind of like, look away, look away, look away.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And once you're, you know, it's really, it's like that matrix moment, right? Like if you take, I think it's the red pill, right? That wakes you up to reality. And it's like, oh, then you just really can't go back, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And so like once you had like made that step and then you were looking at some of this documentation, you know, in particular, Sophie's journals, which obviously are quite disturbing to read, right? Like, what did that feel like for you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Well, I appreciate all those things you said, first of all. And I think that's really, truly exactly what I hope the show will provide for people. And I think everyone who's been through one of these situations at some point gets into this sort of self-recrimination piece of it, where you just go, my god, how did I keep doing this? How did I defend this person? How did I believe them?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I feel like such an idiot. And the reality is like, no, you're not an idiot. You've been victimized by that person. And like they, we all function that way. Like we all live in a basic sort of emotional truth that, you know, is varying degrees of detached to or detached from or attached to reality, right? It's just like how humans are. So you are not in touch with Sophie anymore. No.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Can you tell us how things eventually did come to a head between the two of you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You know, I think probably one of the reasons that we did connect as much as we have is that I know that you mean that and that you hold all of those complicated truths about Sophie. And it is so complicated for those of us. You know, it's something I talk to my friends who are survivors about a lot, and it remains, you know, complex for me, where on the one hand, this behavior is so...
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Cruel and horrible and damaging. And I don't ever want to soften it for anybody, right? Because we do that too much already. Like, oh, they're struggling with a mental illness. Like, no. Right. No. It's inexcusable. They're doing what they're doing. They're committing these horrendous acts. They're putting their children in danger. They're lying about it. They're manipulating everyone.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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It's very dangerous behavior. And I don't think that that precludes us seeing the humanity in them. Yeah. And both the conversation with Hope and one of Sophie's journal entries in particular. Yeah. The one where a lot of her journal entries are these extremely florid, plugging into this narrative about herself as – Jesus, essentially, you know, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like on this sort of, you know, I'm this martyr and my daughter and, you know, I'm like sort of talking to God and really, you know, framing herself that way. And then there's this one entry where it's very plain spoken. It's a very different tone. And she just sort of says... yeah, I'm a compulsive liar. I've done this, I've done that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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This is when it started for me, you know, around the age of four, I remember feeling this way. And, you know, that the only way that I could be loved and be worthy of love was to have it the worst.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Right. And I mean, I felt like that was the truth. And that felt... Maybe the most honest thing she's ever done. That felt true. And I... It really broke my heart to read that because I just, I can still remember a version of my sister that I did really love and was really close to. And whether that's sort of the real her or not, or whether that was always a mask,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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or whether something in between is sort of, you know, a deep and open question. But I think about that, about her being younger in particular and being in that kind of pain, and it makes me really, really sad. And I do think that Megan and Sophie are in a lot of pain. I think it's a sad and a horrible and destructive way to live a life. And I think...
Nobody Should Believe Me
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they do so much damage to others and they also do so much damage to themselves. And I think it really also, you know, thinking about the lack of connection that you would have to feel with other people to be able to do these things, the lack of empathy that you would have to feel to commit these acts, that must be so profoundly lonely.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I mean, Talis, you're a mom also, like, you know, I have two little kids, like, the love I feel for my kids is like the most rewarding thing ever. You know, like it's just like, it's the best.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And like just your relationships with other people, whether you have kids or not, like having deep relationships with other people and trust with other people and connection with other people is like the thing that makes life worth living. And I think like the way I feel about, it was like, you know, while I was like digging into this case, I was just like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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you know, it's like the more I learn about Sophie, the sort of more remote she is and just like talking to people who knew her and, you know, you were one of our background sources, but we had others and I did talk to a number of people who know her and knew her. And I just sort of felt like, Oh, nobody knows this person. This person's unknowable.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And that was what I ultimately felt about my sister. And it's like, people think they know some version of Megan and they don't because she's unknowable because everything is a lie. And it's everything is, there's no sort of like unadulterated version of her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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that is connected to another person everyone's sort of a prop in her play you know and I think like that really is like yes that's horrible for the people who are being used as props but it's also horrible for the person because they're at the middle of it and they're alone and I mean I think we can like I don't think it's wrong to feel empathy for a person who's having that experience in their life because it is sad but you have to like
Nobody Should Believe Me
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see the truth in addition to that because otherwise you're not going to keep the children safe or anybody else. It's like, you can't be safe around a person like that unless you see what you're really dealing with.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I mean, I can personally vouch for you not being here with some kind of vendetta because or to gain something because trust me, and my producer can back me up on this one as well. You know, when we're sort of looking to talk to people about these stories, like the last thing we want is somebody who's like, yes, all right, let's do this. Let me at it. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It's a little like, oh, maybe you want to do this, like maybe a little too much. And then, you know, you wonder if someone's trying to settle a score or something. Then, yeah. And I know that like, especially considering like where we started this conversation of like, this can never be out there. My name can never be out there. And then, you know, it really was just like watching you evolve.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And then really this conversation came about because you had shared something on your Instagram about like the book and the show. And I was like- I wonder if Chalice is feeling like she wants to talk about this. And then, you know, and then so we had that conversation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah, I mean, like, same all around. Like, this is not what I expected to be doing with my life. Right. You know, and I'm glad that I've gotten the opportunity to do something that feels valuable. And believe it or not, this was not a long-term plan to have a popular podcast that I just was like, you know what I'm going to do?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
So, Talis, it's been so wonderful to get to have this conversation with you. It's one of many conversations we've had and hopefully will have in the future. But I really appreciate you doing this with us. And just lastly, and I think...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And, you know, you mentioned that when you got this phone call, that the first place that your mind went was that something terrible had happened to C. And... You know, we talked a lot about what Sophie had communicated about how precarious C's health was to many of the people in her life. What was your understanding of C's condition?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You know, when we were talking about this, like what we both hope and I think what we maybe realize about like hearing about your experience of listening to the show, you kind of realize like there's so much fear around confrontations. when you're in one of these situations.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
How the person will react, how the family members will react, whether or not you will be believed, and because you've been gaslit, you worry that you're crazy. And I realized that having some kind of passive way
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
to process it it can be really helpful and so i think like i think we both hope that em in particular you know but see also will someday listen to this because it will hopefully give them a way to like process that information that does not involve taking a personal risk off the bat and so if they do hear this what do you want to say to the two of them directly
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Thank you so much. That was really beautiful. And, you know, I guess, like, I said this to Hope. I put this out on the air, you know, in the beginning, I think there was, like, this part of me that was hoping, obviously, that Megan would listen to it and be like, oh, look, my sister has gone and learned all these things where she can help me, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You know, the accepting of that help is, like, a totally different story. But I think, like, I know I'm the enemy big time. But, like, also, I think... you and I have the right idea about what it means to help someone like Megan and Sophie, right? Because like we can connect them with the people who built the treatment model for this. Right. That is possible, not easy, but it's possible. I think
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
it's really important to like sort of, you know, first like keep the lights on for the kids, right? But then like for them too, like you said, if they ever wanted to come out of this, there would be another way.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Oh, well, thank you so much for saying all that. That just means the world to me. And I'm so grateful for you as well. And thank you so much for being here with us. And we will keep talking about the next right step. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
When Sophie would tell you none of these doctors are taking this seriously. Like this is, I'm, you know, and even the sort of narrative of like, I'm the only one who's seeing this. Did that, like, how did, how did that strike you? Like, did that, did anything seem strange about that to you at the time?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Or were you just sort of thinking, oh, like this is something that happens, like, you know, where doctors don't take something seriously or they dismiss a mother's concerns. What was your sort of take on that at the time?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. And as far as the girls, you know, and you mentioned that you have girls the same age, and did you get to spend much time with the two of them?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So I just wanted to say that. And we do offer an ad free option on our subscription on our subscription channel. But I did, you know, obviously, I don't think anybody. Ads are anyone's favorite part of a show. We try to work them in. You know, we take a lot of care with like our ad breaks and where we put them and all that stuff to make it as, you know, as the least disruptive possible.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But there's some cold hard facts here. about capitalism that unfortunately are unavoidable. And these fine people on this call and our two other staff members, you know, I do like to pay them. I do think that that is the right thing to do. And in order to do that, I have to keep the revenue of the show going. So, you know, we do, this is like an expensive show to make, especially our main seasons.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
We do a almost all original reporting. We do field work. And I'm extremely grateful that I'm able to make this show independently. It is just feels like kind of a miracle that I'm able to do that. And I'm able to do that because of how many people listen to the show and how many people sit through our ads and use our offer codes and join our subscription channels and stuff like that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So mostly I just want to say thank you all for doing that. That support is how I keep making this show. And yeah, I mean, that's really all I have to say about ads. That's probably the only time I'll ever address that comment. I think every podcaster does get that at some point completely.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
No, we are keeping it. We are keeping that in. I am sending it to Lumi. If anyone has anything else that they would like to share, I'm wearing something from Quince right now. It's true. I do actually like my sponsors. Y'all, those hosts right now, they are hard to get.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
That's amazing. So to all of you who are complaining about ads there, you just got one. Amazing, amazing. But yes, we should do like a sort of like business of podcasting episode just as a bonus. That would be really fun. If y'all are interested in that, let me know because it is a wild, wild, wild industry. So crazy. Changes every five minutes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So, you know, just know that your support is helping us survive out here, truly. So the other thing that I got a lot of feelings about from our listeners was was sort of this notion of me kind of, quote, getting political. And yeah, I mean, I will sort of choose my words carefully here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, some of this was just sort of complaints about me mentioning like the existence of race, saying a person's race. saying what politics a church had and were sort of projecting. You know, and those details, so I'll just say with those details, like those details were germane to this case. This was a case that involved the evangelical church.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
It involved Sophie sort of aligning herself with this social movement and that social movement and sort of having these seemingly very contradicting beliefs. And then in terms of race, I mean, that played a massive role in this case also. So, you know...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And the child protective system, which also has, you know, obviously with the government, it's a government agency.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me and if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me Andrea Dunlop your humble narrator of this very show I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah. And thank you, Maria. And, you know, in terms of the evangelical stuff, because we did hear from a lot of people about this in particular, you know, we took, and again, this is something, you know, that Nicole is more versed in than I am. We had Dr. Turek to talk to about this stuff because this is not, I'm not an evangelical. I wasn't raised in like a church going household.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I really wanted to be respectful. You know, I don't want to loop all evangelicals together. I don't want to loop all Christians together. And, you know, if I didn't strike that balance perfectly in every single episode of the show, that's just, you know, that's kind of the nature of the beast. But we certainly tried our best to be thoughtful about that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And also, like, you know, in terms of just the is this an apolitical show or not? I certainly appreciate that we have, you know, listeners from really all places on all points on the political spectrum. And I really that's something I appreciate about this show. And with that said, you know, none of the things that we talk about on the show are apolitical.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
These are you know, we talk about medicine and health care and government systems and entities. Now, with that said, I don't feel that either side of the political spectrum gets it right specifically about this abuse. Um, so I'm not really championing like, you know, the rights take on this or the left's take on it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
It's like some politicians get it right in some ways, others get it right in other ways, you know, but it's not like, it's not like anybody's doing a good job with this. So it's kind of like everyone is, is, is open to critique from, from my perspective. Um, but I just think, you know, on a broader sort of thing, because, you know, something that I also got, uh, got feedback on, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, was the ads that we were running for Equality Texas and something that I mentioned, you know, late last year was that we're going to start doing these pro bono ads to, you know, really just be a way to support, you know, groups that are really. Could you support at this time? Yeah. Yeah, the groups that really need support at this time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I'm trying to use my platform to help folks that are really going to be impacted by this current administration and all of the things that are happening right now. And I will just say kind of as a as a you know, I'm not going to make this into a current events show. This is a show about a specific thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I will sort of probably only bring up politics when it is germane to what we're talking about. Right. But my feelings about what's going on right now in the world are not neutral. And I don't owe it to anybody to be neutral. And this is my platform that I built and I'll use it as I see fit. And this is something that I feel a responsibility to do right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And, again, I try to be as open-minded as possible. And we have different voices on the show. And that's something that I really appreciate. I will continue to do that. But, you know, I didn't start a podcast because I don't have a lot to say. I do have a lot to say. So. So that's that for the moment. Anybody else? Do you feel like weighing in on this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a really good point. And I just want to say, too, like, I, I'm very open to feedback. I really enjoy having, you know, constructive, thoughtful feedback from listeners. But, you know, the sort of shut up about politics stuff, like, I'm just, that's not something I'm going to take.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah. And with Pursuit, you know, probably will come as a surprise to no one on this call or listening to this. You know, I find a lot of their beliefs extremely objectionable. And I think those people at that church were very victimized by Sophie. They were very exploited by her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I, you know, from what I've heard sort of talking to folks on background, like that church really did care about Sophie and her girls. And I think I can make room for that very good intention that they had in supporting them, even as I disagree with them. And that's just the kind of nuance. that I think we sometimes miss.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
There is a lot going on in the world at the moment, and especially if you're a working parent like I am, you probably have a running list of things I really need to do that you forget about until suddenly you wake up in the middle of the night and remember that you haven't done them yet.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
If getting life insurance is on that list, our new sponsor, SelectQuote, can help you check this one off in as little as 15 minutes. SelectQuote is one of America's leading insurance brokers with nearly 40 years of experience, helping over 2 million customers find over $700 billion in coverage since 1985. And they can help you find the right policy that fits your family's needs and budget.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Plus, if you're in good health, they work with carriers that can get you same-day coverage with no medical exam required. We all know that life insurance is important. So take a break from doom scrolling and focus on something you can actually control for a few minutes and head to selectquote.com and a licensed insurance agent will call you right away to help you get a policy set up.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Get the right life insurance for you for less at selectquote.com slash nobody. Go to selectquote.com slash nobody today to get started. That's selectquote.com slash nobody. You can find all this information in our show notes. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa. What followed was a year of upheaval, violence and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed. Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. So on to a much less controversial topic, race.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But I wanted to just talk a little bit about some of the reactions to this. So this was very interesting to kind of hear from people about their reactions to some of the behaviors that we talked about Sophie having with her girls. And I think a lot of folks kind of just felt a big ick about Sophie.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
some of the behaviors we talked about with Sophie and just kind of gave us interesting feedback about their own experiences, either in this adoptive world or just as, like we had one that said, I'm a mom of a biracial child and I find it really icky and uncomfortable how often I see white moms posting about their black or biracial child, like, OMG, look at me, I'm so amazing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Look at me take 6,000 videos of me doing their hair. Aren't I just the best white mom ever? Very fetishizing. Um, and we had kind of a lot of comments that were, that were in this vein.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. All right. Well. Hello, it's Andrea, and I am here today with the entire Season 5 editorial team, which is so exciting to do our mailbag episode.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Um, and then on the other side, we sort of had some that were like, oh, I don't know that these incidents that you're sort of discussing about like the chalk in the hair or them being the only, you know, child at, uh, the only black child that a gymnastics meet were really like, you know, that big of a deal or, or whatever. So we kind of had both, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And, you know, even this listener, which I think there's some validity to this, right? Like saying like teaching a black child about social inequities and awareness, lack of diversity in sports, that's something that should be taught. And I think, you know, there is a lot of nuance here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
This wasn't something that I felt super comfortable like weighing in one way or the other, whether these things were a big deal, which was why, you know, which was why we asked Chad to weigh in on it as that's his area of expertise. So, yeah, I just wanted to kind of get everybody's
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
everybody's take on like I didn't want to just go too hard on on Sophie if there wasn't any evidence that this was the case you know you don't want to just like make assumptions about someone's intentions however you know we had we had quite a bit to work with in terms of what people told us about her and also her memoir which obviously Erin and Mariah both read as well so I just kind of love to hear from the team on your impressions of that piece of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
The only people from the rest of the team who are not here is Nola Karmouche, my assistant, who does all kinds of tasks for the show and helps keep everything running, and our wonderful audio engineer, Robin Edgar-Schultz. Shout out to those ladies as well. But with me here, I have Mariah Gossett, Nicole Hill, Erin Ajayi, and Greta Stromquist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So if y'all could go around starting with Mariah and just tell us who you are.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, yeah, no, and I think we can kind of get into that next. We got quite a few comments about the gymnastics piece of things. But something I did want to share, I talked to Chalice Howard, who was our source that, you know, eventually came on the record, and we got so many nice comments about her. We'll get into this as well.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, something that she shared with me, which I thought this was so interesting and sort of in, you know, through my lens of someone who studies perpetrators of this crime, is is that Sophie, you know, and they were, she was living across the country, right? So they had this relationship that was very close, but they were not around each other a ton.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And she was telling me that, you know, what Sophie was sort of reporting to her was that she, and you know, and some of this may have been happening. It's sort of hard to gauge. But that she was making a big effort to, like, keep the girls in touch with their Zambian heritage and, you know, connect them with that community and really, like, be thoughtful about that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And that she seemed very thoughtful about being the white parent of two, you know, black children from Zambia. And, you know, Chalice is also a white parent of two black children that are there. They're from, you know, they're from the United States. So so different. But that was something that was she talked about being a big point of connection between the two of them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I think what is so what really comes through in Sophie's case and that I think is really present in all of these cases is that people who engage in these behaviors are opportunists. So they are going to put on a mask that suits the scene they're in. Right. And I think we could really see this with Sophie's behavior.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
pivots around you know being part of this um you know church pursuit that has these very um you know very extreme sort of far-right political beliefs that again yes like that's not a guess on my part they're putting it on billboards that i sometimes drive by um
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, and then sort of having this strange reaction to being like, well, they were just not on board enough with, you know, Black Lives Matter and then suddenly deciding that this is not a safe place for her black children, which seems very bizarre reaction. Right. And I'm like, well, this to me is evidence of someone that is just going to use everything. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And then even the way that she used the investigation into Seattle Children's for systemic racism. I think it all just sort of points to like this opportunism. Right. That she's going to use. whatever she has.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And then I think the thing that has really struck me after covering so many of these cases that is so profoundly sad and just manifests in a whole bunch of different ways in every case differently is that they're just not people that feel empathy for their children. Or anyone else, I don't think.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I mean, I, this is something I've talked about at length with my colleagues on the psychologist and psychiatrist side, you know, and like, that I just think that if you're able to put children through this, that you're not really someone who's feeling empathy on the level that one would hope.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And so I think that that then sort of enables someone to like use whatever resources are available to them at the moment. And so I think we see a lot of evidence with that. And so that I think was what struck me about those,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
incidence of like the thing with the hair and the thing with it was like that that it was not about her children it was about her it was calling attention to her as a white parent of black children and like as that sort of heroic figure well friends it's 2025 it's here this year is going to be Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me and if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me Andrea Dunlop your humble narrator of this very show I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Well, OK, yes. So I wanted to talk just a little bit. We did get a lot of reactions to the gymnastics stuff. And Aaron, you read us that quote from a listener. And yeah, I think that this was this was something that obviously stuck out to all of us as we were looking into this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Just the idea of sort of taking a child and putting them in this very difficult, extreme competitive environment. And I think we had some questions about just Em's role and her relationship with C and kind of what their relationship between the two of us.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I mean, certainly the impression that I got and the impression that I've gotten from how these other cases play out is that often an older sibling is kind of a forgotten child. I think especially as And is no longer doing gymnastics. You know, I worry that she sort of doesn't have a role anymore. And again, that's sort of speculation on my part.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But just again, having sort of seen this pattern, I mean, I think some of that came through in her writing that was excerpted in the in the investigative report that she seemed very eager to. to, you know, to be this gymnast in order to get her mom's approval. And it seemed very clear that that was kind of a big part of their dynamic.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And then also just that, you know, in terms of her relationship with With C, you know, I think it came very clear even from the information that we have and then certainly from talking to Chalice, you know, who knows these girls very well, that Em really, really loves C and that those two have a really strong bond, which I hope is something that, you know, that will endure.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But yeah, what was kind of everybody's thoughts on Em? I know we had a lot of conversations about Em behind the scenes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, 100%. I mean, as a parent of a six-year-old, you know, which is the age that Em was when she was getting into gymnastics, and just, like, I know I harped on that so much in the episodes, but, like, the driving distance. The driving. Just because, like, that, you know, that was where my sister went to college was in Bellingham.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
This was a really fun episode to record because I got to bring my entire editorial team on the mic with me. Podcasting is a collaborative art form, and I am so lucky to have such a talented and lovely team. We are hard at work on our new full season, which will be coming out this June.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So I actually, and I live much further, you know, I live further north than where Sophie was going for gymnastics. But, like, I know that drive, you know? And, like, that is a long-ass drive. And just the, like, sort of...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Amazing. Thank you so much, Mariah. And yes, I can confirm that my interview with one of us was the single most fun podcast interview I've ever done. I don't think I've ever laughed that hard. I mean, probably not surprising since I don't usually laugh in interviews I'm doing about the show. So that was very nice. It was a nice palate cleanser. Erin Ajayi, let's hear from you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like I think that was what it that was like what struck me as part of like the pattern of this behavior is like the like looking for hardship anywhere and like looking to make your life either really harder or seem harder or like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
you know of just like for no good reason right and i i gather that you know from folks we spoke to on background that she sophie explained this as like well you know em has all these issues and this is the only way that like this is the only thing that helps is to have this but then again i mean like that doesn't that that that explanation doesn't make a lot of sense on its face but also like again it's like it's the competitive gym it's like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, yeah, like you can have especially for like six, seven year olds. It's like you can take them to a gym that just like they just like do cartwheels and little jumps and tumbles and whatever and like play around. And then there's this program, which was just, you know, of a different level entirely. So, yeah, I think that that part was really that part was really striking about the story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
No. And that was one of the things actually the AHC parents talked about in some of the literature I read and like some of the, you know, the documentary that we watched, like was the challenges of transportation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Was this sort of like, you know, the time bomb thing, really that expression, at least the way that I interpreted it, which seems to be on point, like that after talking to the expert, was the unpredictability of it. You know, that it was like one of the parents talked about, well, it's hard to even like take them out to the grocery store because, you know,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
if they have an episode, like, there while you're out and about, you know, or while you're in the car, it's going to be really brutal. And so you're just thinking, like, you have this child that has this thing where they could, like, go into episode.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And, you know, Sophie's reporting that she's going into episode kind of all day, every day, off and on, or being in episode for, you know, whatever, a month or whatever she claimed, you know, at times. And, like, why would you then put yourself in a situation where you're putting that child in a car two hours each way. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And so on the one hand, either she doesn't have that condition, which I strongly believe that's the case, right? We had that signed affidavit, a sworn affidavit from Dr. Wainwright to that effect that this child does not have AHC. Or if they do have AHC, that seems incredibly cruel. So either way, bad, right? Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point, Erin. And I think that was where, you know, when we were sort of talking about like, oh, could competitive gymnastics be its own podcast? You know, like that's an archetype that I think people are really familiar with, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like the parent that projects their sports dreams, either what they did achieve or what they didn't achieve, you know, onto their child and then sort of pushes them in. And I think that that, you know, that is also something that can become abusive in its own right. I mean, I grew up playing tennis and was quite a competitive player and played in college.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I saw certainly a lot of and again, that's a very like that's a very like expensive, intense, individualistic sport. So certainly some kind of parallels there. And I mean, I just remember like I have these images in my head of like, you know, parents were like screaming at nine year olds after they lost a match and stuff like that. So it's like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I think that's another way that parents don't let their kids be their own individual humans. And I think as we're sort of talking about this, yeah, this bifurcation between C being the sick one and M being the hyper-capable one, neither of them just gets to be a kid. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like, and it's really, really important to just like, it's like watching, you know, watching my kids grow up and like Aaron, you're a mom as well. Like, you know, it's really important to just like that. That's a lot of work. Like it's a lot of work being a kid. Like, you know, you're just like learning how to like be a person and like, that's a huge job, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You're learning how to, like, you know, my daughter's in kindergarten. Like, she's learning how to, like, have friendships and socialize. And it's just like, this is just a lot. Like, you just realize you're, like, there's so much to take on. And so it's like you have to be really careful, like, not to pile a bunch of other stuff on them, you know. And I'm sort of, like, very sensitive to that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I think it's just another way in which people, like, sometimes don't really see their kids as humans. I think they see them as reflections of themselves. They see them as, like –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, kind of like trophies or like I think that so I do think there's like some really interesting crossover and certainly like Sophie coming from that competitive athletic background certainly could sort of have affected the flavor of the way that this this particular dynamic played out. All right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So we had a lot of questions about like, you know, we had a couple questions about like the status of these lawsuits. So as far as we've been able to tell, the only piece that is still making its way through the court system is the lawsuit against Renton PD. So as soon as we find out what the outcome of that is, we will certainly let everybody know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Um, the rest of it, the part against children's has been dismissed. And yet one of our listeners on the Patreon pointed out that like, yeah, that part certainly, you know, we said it in the show, but that part certainly didn't make the news. Like you cannot find that information except for public records request.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And now obviously the show, um, actually, you know what, before I get to this one, um, I just wanted to talk about our chalice, our chalice, um, Our lovely Chalice. So this was our surprise ninth episode of the season.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, this was I've been speaking to Chalice, as I mentioned on the show, really frequently since the fall and had been, you know, communicating with the group about her and, you know, not someone we thought was going to go on the record initially. And that was quite an evolution for her. We had such amazing feedback.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
This was by far – this is some of the most positive feedback I've gotten actually from the entire length of the show was just people's reactions to this episode. People really loved hearing from her. And I think there was like a bunch of stuff that resonated with people from the Chalice episode. I think just her love for the girls and even for Sophie like really came through.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And also just I think it really – Part of what really resonated with people, which again, I think in the context of kind of what's going on, is just listening to someone who changed their mind about something. you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And so I just wanted to kind of hear from everybody about like, yeah, this was a really like unexpected thing to have this season where we did not go in with any, you know, close sources, um, and didn't know kind of who would come through.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And yeah, I just, I just wanted to get everybody's kind of take on like watching that kind of connection happened behind the scenes and that her decision to go public.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Or really, more specifically, that this is not abuse, right? It's not abuse, right. Because the kid can be sick and it can be abuse. Those two things can... But yes, I mean, like, me too. Like, I think it would be so fascinating to go into a season and be like, oh, this person really, this really was...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. And today is our season five mailbag episode. Thank you so much to everyone who listened to this season and took the time to leave us comments and questions. We got by far the most feedback we have ever gotten on this season. And I am just really grateful that people are so engaged with this show. It's amazing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, I loved that image that Chalice shared with us in that episode of when Sophie was the only one in focus, she could ignore it. And then the minute that the kids came into focus.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I just thought that was such a beautiful way to describe what this is because I think it's so hard to get your feet under you when you're in one of these situations because you are being gaslit and you are being told this story. And
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, and then it's just like if you just think about like what is happening to the kids, I think then it's like it really registers as a kind of like last last question. And then I also would love to know just if there's anything like as you guys read through, like the comments, if there's anything that stuck out to you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But like, you know, we get we get asked a lot, you know, in response to like all of the show questions. Like, what can we do to prevent this? And the truth is, I don't know. I think conversations around prevention of child abuse are so necessary. I had a couple of people on, someone from Prevent Child Abuse America, which is a fantastic and large organization that's been around since the 1970s.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And they've talked a lot about prevention of other forms of abuse. Like physical abuse, those things are really exacerbated by a lot of factors that actually can be controlled for by parents having enough support, by dealing with mental health issues, substance abuse issues, poverty, adjacent issues.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
There's a lot of abuse and neglect that happens that is very much tied to those things and that can actually be solved for, not easy to solve, especially when we're not – having a moment where we feel like giving resources to those things. But this one, I don't know. I truly don't know what can really be done to prevent other than to just separate.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I don't and it may just be my lens of like I do look at extreme cases a lot. I think there are probably you know, there is all of the professionals I've talked to. There's there is a spectrum of this behavior. I think maybe there is it does manifest with some people in a way that could be.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
mitigated but but I don't know um and I wanted to know if you know y'all from obviously Greta and Mariah you've been with us for two seasons Aaron and Nicole this was your first season so I know this is sort of obviously a newer topic but I mean when you sort of look at this case or like when you look at these situations I mean yeah what are what are your thoughts on that
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, well, Erin, I can just really attest to the fact that your voice and perspective was so helpful with this season.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And yes, you were a researcher and fact checker, but also I feel like, you know, you just added so much, especially to the early episodes where we, you know, you found so much interesting stuff online and that we did not, you know, did not have to begin with and just talking through all of that in those first couple of episodes with you and obviously some of that on the mic.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I love that, Maria. And thank you for saying that about child abuse pediatricians. And just, yeah, a note, like we've talked about this previously on the show, but child abuse pediatricians are really under attack right now. There's not that many of them. There's something like 250 in the entire country. If you have a child abuse pediatrician at your hospital, you are very lucky.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
That is a lucky community that has that person. Again, if I am a parent that brings my kid to a hospital with a suspicious injury, with a suspicion, whatever, Suspicious whatever, right? If there's something that's going to be a red flag for abuse, I want a child abuse pediatrician.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
They are going to be way less likely to make – and this is the data support says they are going to be less likely to make a wrong assumption, to make an incorrect evaluation as to whether or not something is abuse. This is getting tremendous. They are getting tremendous pushback. There is a law in Texas. There's another one that people are advocating for in Georgia. Those are the two I know about.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I haven't done a full research on this of these like second opinion laws, as they're called, which is just just basically completely hamstringing a hospital's ability to proceed. evaluate and report abuse and intervene. So there is a lot of like, be aware of what is going on in your community. If there are people that are pushing back, this is happening a lot of places. It's happening here too.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I don't know if they've made any headway. With the legislature, but this is something that, you know, is really people are really pushing. This is not just specific to Munchausen by proxy. This is also people that are saying, you know, that they their children who came in with fractures or, you know, had trauma or those kind of things, you know, like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
There aren't parents from my understanding of sort of the broader scope of abuse and child abuse pediatrics. I don't think there are that many parents who abuse their children, who bring them to the hospital with injuries and just say what they did. I think they usually come in with another story about what happened.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
was really amazing and helpful. So, yeah, just, yeah, really appreciate your work this season. Nicole, can we hear from you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So I think, again, be vigilant about what's happening in your community and be very, very skeptical about stories you hear about parents who've been falsely accused of abuse, especially if all of the parents in that story are white. Well, any other... Just final thoughts, comments that resonated with y'all from the season.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, exactly. Problem solved. And then everyone was fine. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we actually did get a handful of questions about how did Sophie slash are these perpetrators getting insurance to cover everything? Yeah. And I wanted to share two pieces of something that I have like that I have just sort of like one is an observation. One is kind of a data point from Detective Mike Weber in Texas.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
We all sort of are familiar with like how you have to fight with insurance even to get something that is totally necessary that your doctor ordered. So it's like, how are they getting all this unnecessary stuff? It's like the amount of time that they devote to it is just like nothing that a normal person would do. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like so I think there's sort of like, you know, there's the level to which like a parent with a legitimately sick child would have to advocate for that child to get their stuff covered. And that's heartbreaking and horrible and very real. And I think that's one of the things that this sort of hides behind. And then this is on another level altogether.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like the level of obsession and compulsion in this behavior is just such that like we see all the time in these cases, like the person calls me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
the doctor's office and they call the hospital administration and they call this person and that person just go up the chain to where they're like on the phone with the you know like ceo of that maybe not exactly but like i mean they will go up they will call everybody they will call everyone's manager and their manager and like they will go online and they will start campaigns and they will like you know what i mean so it's like this level of like activity that just like is so relentless and the other piece that i wanted to
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
point out about the interaction with the health care system that I think should really, really make people angry. Obviously, a lot should make people angry about these cases. But I think when you look at it on a community basis, most of these cases are Medicaid cases. Because that's the biggest health insurer of people, that's obviously something that's looking at huge cuts right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So that's a whole other separate, very sad, very troubling thing. But like that is a system that obviously like taxpayers pay into that is being defrauded by the people who who commit this abuse. And just the sort of like amount of community resources. And I think we really saw this in this case. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And in the meantime, we have a bunch of great stuff lined up for our new season of Case Files, which is our in-between season show. We're going to be talking about the lawsuit against Rady Children's in San Diego, the Bell Gibson case that was the subject of the new Netflix series, Apple Cider Vinegar, and a frequently requested topic, chronic Lyme.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Or like resources that are supposed to go to kids that actually have this or like that kind of thing. Like they really rip a lot of people off and they take a lot of time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And resources and they get their kids seen first and they get their court, you know, court case moved up on the docket and like they just devour all of these resources, which are already strapped and looking to be more strapped soon. So that's something that should really make people mad, I think. What was the stat from Detective Mike?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Oh, just that he was saying that the vast majority of cases that he looks at, it's not actually a stats observation, but like that the vast majority of cases he looks at are Medicaid cases. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So final thoughts from Nicole, Greta? Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, no, thank you. That was so well said. And I do think actually that sort of community aspects really come through in this case. And I think, yeah, it's just sort of like top of mind for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Well, everyone, thank you so much for your incredible work on this season. I feel just very grateful and honored to have been able to work on this with y'all. And yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Thank you so much. And we will include links in the show notes to everybody's respective projects. Go check them out. They are fun. They are less heavy than what we do here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
It's really incredible. I love it so much. And it really reinforces this feeling that I have that all history should just be told as gossip.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like if we learned history as gossip, I think we would remember it much better because I'm like, like listening to these historical figures that I only sort of knew about in this very like, you know, academic context and just be like, oh, and they were like having affairs and like who was sleeping with who, which is like a lot of what the show's been about so far. I'm so into it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So highly recommend. Uh, thank you so much, Nicole and your, your contributions to the season were just incredible. I mean, it would not have been the same show without you this season. So just really, really appreciated, uh, appreciate you as well. Um, and last, but certainly not least, uh, Greta Stromquist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
See, I did not warn Greta she'd be on the mic today. This is Greta's first time on the mic with us, I think.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So stay tuned for all of that, and if you're a subscriber, we've got lots of good After Hours stuff coming soon as well. So with that, please enjoy our mailbag episode and let us know your thoughts by leaving us a comment on Spotify or sending us an email to hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah. 100%. 100%. And yeah, I second all of that. And just, yeah, it's been as the creator of this show, you know, like having this team come on for the fifth season was just really like, this was, you know, I felt like we were just kind of firing on all cylinders and everybody like really brought their best. And that was just like, So satisfying podcasting so collaborative. It's so fun.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
There were so many comments. Definitely the strongest and quickest response we've ever had to a season. For the first time, we put all of the episodes behind the paywall at launch. And boy, oh, boy, did a lot of people listen really fast, which actually shocked me. And I know everybody on the team worked really hard to get all of those done.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
um by by the launch date which was right after the holidays sorry y'all never again um and uh and yeah so we had a most of the comments were really nice um a lot of people binge the season really fast as i said a lot of folks saying which i just want to ask are those people okay how are you doing a lot. I hope you're doing well.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
The first person I heard from, so we launched at midnight on whatever that Thursday was. And the first person I heard from who had finished all eight episodes was at 2.30 that afternoon. And I was like, what did you literally just, they must've just like woken up and started listening. I was barely enough time had passed since it had been up.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Um, and so I, and I heard from a lot of people within like the first 48 hours. So yeah, it was like, that is like a really intense journey that everyone went on. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm very, I'm very glad, but yes, that was, uh, yeah, let us know. Um, Um, so we just had like comments pouring in, um, really from the minute we launched this time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And, uh, and you know, most of it was really nice. Lots of thoughtful comments, lots of interesting, um, points and questions that we have to get to. Uh, and a lot of folks saying this was our best season yet, which really made me happy. And I think that that is really, again, down to, um, down to what a great team we had working on this. Um, you know, this is, there were many, uh,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, as we go forward into new seasons, you know, I started this show as a limited series. I thought it was like a pretty niche topic to make a show on because it's obviously we cover like a very specific thing. And it turns out that actually it's even within like within our niche, there are so many issues that come up that actually like –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I could probably make this show for as long as I had the stamina for it. And I think at this point, I really look for cases to dive into that bring up some of these interesting other things that we really dived into.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And this season with the elements of evangelical Christianity and the transracial adoption were things that I found really interesting, but also did not feel equipped to handle on my own and just like through my own lens. So I think having the right team in place for this one really helped us get it right. And so yeah, that was like, I feel so good about a process on this one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So the first comment that I wanted to just address, and I'd love to get, especially since a couple of you have your own shows, just the commentary on this. We had a lot of comments about the number of ads. So I wanted to address this, not just to kind of complain about it, but just to say that, number one, we do have actually fewer ads than the average show our length.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
The child's condition was real, was validated by medical experts, and the supposed child abuse medicine claims were a vehicle for attention for misguided licensed professionals who themselves wanted attention and were willing to contrive a fake condition to get it. So in other words, C's AHC is real and Sophie's munchausen by proxy is the fake condition.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
But also, Sophie isn't doing munchausen by proxy. The doctors are doing munchausen by proxy. And they accuse the doctors of conspiring against Sophie, again, for attention. Quote,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
I spoke to Olivia LaVois, the reporter who broke this story, to try and unravel the way this case played out. I think the justice system, for those people who haven't interacted with it, is so much more complex than I think people realize.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
They laid the groundwork for an accusation of medical child abuse for two years, a false claim that was slow rolled while they gradually set the family up to be separated with false criminal charges, horrifying publicity, and removal of the children based on a contrived rush two years later to court for a phony emergency.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
This entire thing reads like someone gave an AI chatbot instructions to write a lawsuit in the voice of your drunkest conspiracy theorist uncle. Just word salad from top to bottom.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
And a lot of this is very parents' rights coded, such as the lawsuit using scare quotes every time they mention child abuse medicine, as though it's not a real thing, and their description of a dependency action as, quote, a legal term for an attempt to take away children and destroy a family. I spoke to Detective Michael Lee about how Sophie and her attorneys have framed this whole situation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
This language around the conditions of dropping the misdemeanor charges and then sort of how those were, how those translated into the media coverage of, you know, both the the, the case being dropped and then the, and then the lawsuit itself. And you know, the, the language that Sophie herself uses to describe what happened in this situation, which was that there was no evidence of abuse found.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
She says that she says we were exonerated. Um, even the headlines around this say, you know, rent and mom cleared of charges. And I was like, that's doesn't really describe what happened here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
The courts, by and large, do not take Munchausen by proxy cases seriously, but it's one of the deadliest forms of abuse. The most common cited death rate is 9%, but one more recent study showed it being closer to 17%. And the evidence in Sophie's case had all the hallmarks of going in a dangerous direction.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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The feeding tube, the push for TPN and an unnecessary central line, the constant talk of the child's death. So why would Family Court send her kids back? How could they just ignore all of this? I was hoping that Sophie's lawsuit filings would provide some insight. If some piece of exculpatory evidence had come out in the dependency trial, it would certainly be the center of this lawsuit.
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But the 152-page court filing includes only one direct quote from the judge's order, that Seattle Scan Team's process had been, quote, deeply flawed, which could mean almost anything. And I have to say, given how little the family courts understand about these cases, I'm not inclined to read much into this.
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Instead of any concrete evidence, the lawsuit does mental gymnastics to explain why all these providers would conspire against Sophie, at one point comparing Dr. Wester and the Seattle Children's Child Abuse Team to Joseph Stalin and his secret police. The conspiracy angle seems to be tied to the length of time that Seattle Children's was tracking this case.
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But as Dr. Jim Hamilton explains, there often needs to be a long period of observation to detect this particular form of abuse.
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People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. Hello, it's Andrea. The episode you're about to hear was originally the finale of our season.
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Much of this lawsuit hinges on the idea that C does have AHC and that it was diagnosed by Dr. McCotty from Duke, a notion we have already devoted plenty of time to unpacking. I do not believe, after reviewing this case file, that this child has AHC. And also, C having a legitimate diagnosis of AHC would in no way preclude the possibility of abuse.
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This is a very common misconception about munchausen by proxy that we discussed with Jim.
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In a small mercy, this fall, as we were working on this season, we learned that Sophie's lawsuit against Seattle Children's had been dismissed with prejudice, meaning she cannot make any additional appeals.
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The court decision is straightforward, upholding protections for mandatory reporters of child abuse, stating that, quote, "...the court has no reason to doubt the accuracy or authenticity of the report as submitted by the Seattle Children's Hospital defendants." The dismissal of Sophie's criminal case made the news. The dismissal of her lawsuit, however, did not.
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So in the end, Sophie probably won't get her big payout. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St.
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Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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However, in the weeks since the release of the premiere, one of the sources that I'd been speaking to for months decided that she wanted to go on the record. So we will be airing my in-depth conversation with her next week. And trust me, you will not want to miss it. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be...
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
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Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me and if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me Andrea Dunlop your humble narrator of this very show I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you
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If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
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So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
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These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. This case is deeply intertwined with Sophie's faith. In her memoir and in her journals, she positions herself as being on a mission from God. And the church communities in her life played a big role in supporting and financing her efforts throughout C's medical odyssey.
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Sophie's now moved on from her former North End megachurch, and these days, she's with a new flock.
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We caught back up with Dr. Lauren Turek, our evangelical history expert, to ask her about this new church.
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This church is much smaller and with a much mellower vibe than Pursuit Northwest. And in keeping with Sophie's narrative of leaving Pursuit because of racism, this church is led by a black couple and the congregation is far more diverse than Pursuit.
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Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
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The church is small and community focused. No pyrotechnics like Pursuit. However, they do live stream all of their services. And Sophie and her girls can be seen on the church's social media accounts. And Sophie even delivered a sermon at one point.
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No, I mean, she sounds like the same Sophie, and it's, you know, just different backdrop. And Sophie is still in touch with her home church, Haven, which she paid a visit to this past summer.
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Sophie approaches the podium with a stack of letters.
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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In April of 2009, Sophie Hartman left her small Christian college in Michigan to become a missionary in Zambia. While there, she encountered two sisters in an orphanage, C and M. And in May of 2015, after going numerous rounds in court with the Zambian government, she won the right to take the two sisters into her home.
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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Thank you. Thank you. , , , , , , ,, P P P P P P P P P,實, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , a sol a
Nobody Should Believe Me
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. I always talk about how strong the patterns in these cases are. The premature births, the feeding tubes, the seizures that no one else witnesses. The one in a million rare diagnosis that only the mother or perhaps one sainted doctor out of the laundry list of specialists truly understands.
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There's the unnecessary wheelchairs and leg braces. There's the graphic and disturbing social media posts. The ominous march towards death for a child no medical professional has deemed has a terminal illness.
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There's the heartstrings media coverage, the devoted church and community members that financially support the family, the inevitable make-a-wish trip, and often it's not, there's a celebrity cameo.
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
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That last clip is of my niece getting a special visit from the beloved former Seahawk, Richard Sherman, at the same hospital, Marybridge, where Sophie's daughter, C, was also being treated at this time. The parallels between my sister Megan and Sophie's cases are endless and exhausting.
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And given that they worked together to get C&M returned to Sophie, it's unsurprising that Sophie's next move followed in Megan's footsteps too. With a dependency case and criminal charges behind her, it was time to rebrand as a falsely accused mom. Here is a segment from Fox 13 News in Seattle.
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In March of 2021, after her younger daughter had endured countless doctor's visits, testing, and two surgeries, a court in Washington State, where Sophie had resettled them, took them away. And in May of 2021, almost six years to the day after the adoptions were finalized, Sophie was charged with assault of a child in the second degree.
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Other news outlets had headlines such as this one from Law & Crime. Quote, the spirit of subversion and hubris. Mom falsely accused of medical child abuse files multi-million dollar lawsuit against hospital, police, and child welfare authorities. And this banger from the U.S. Sun. Humiliating. I was falsely accused of forcing my daughter into 500 medical procedures. I almost lost custody.
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Now I'm suing for $3 million. I always knew that I would cover this case because of my family connection to it. But when this lawsuit was filed in 2024, I bumped it up in the queue. I devoted my entire third season to the Kowalski case, in which a family filed a similar lawsuit against Johns Hopkins All Children's and won a quarter billion dollar judgment in court.
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That case is on appeal, but the court of public opinion made up its mind before the trial even started, thanks to a little film called Take Care of Maya that was viewed by almost 14 million people in the two weeks after its release. So I thought I'd better get the facts of Sophie's case out there before she called Netflix. Here I am again with Olivia LaVoie.
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her and her team to say that these people maliciously conspired against her too, which is the charge.
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I mean, it's not the exact legal charge, but like that is sort of what, that is the nature of the lawsuit is basically that these doctors conspired against her, that, you know, this was, they were all wrong and sort of this, you know, she had this legitimate diagnosis and all these doctors sort of ganged up upon her for,
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Well, they have put in a demand for a jury trial, so we will see if that goes through. I, too, am very nervous about them settling out of court because I think then we will not ever have the kind of information we would. And also, I think, again, when you were talking about, like, what message does that send if someone settles?
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And again, entities settle out of court for all kinds of reasons, right? There's like there are some, you know, accountants doing the math back behind the scenes and there's like actuarial, you know, insurance, whatever things that play into that. It's not it's not like, oh, you know, she's right, so we're going to give her the money.
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But after a costly and bitterly fought year-long battle, Sophie got her daughters back. That following summer, the criminal charges were dropped. This season, we followed the long and windy road of this case and how it collided with my own family.
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It's quite a lot more complicated than that, but it does certainly send the message of like, oh, well, look, this, not only were the charges dismissed, she then won this settlement. So she really must have, not only did she not do it, she must really have been maliciously, falsely accused. And then that sort of reinforces the idea that, oh, false accusations are a thing that's happening. Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, and I always then worry also about the precedent that sets for other people who, you know, are accused of child abuse, charged with child abuse, may get it, sort of have this same slip through the cracks, and then sort of, I worry about that becoming an opportunity for opportunistic lawsuits, to be honest.
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Like, why would you put yourself back in the position to get more, be under more scrutiny?
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Why indeed? Because Olivia is right. Most people wouldn't push their luck in such a scenario. However, I think it's safe to say that nothing Sophie has done over the past 10 years is what most people would have done. Sophie is really on her own singular mission in life.
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In the last episode, we talked to my parents about the emotional blackmail that my sister Megan pulled on them after the first investigation, telling them that they could either help her sue Seattle Children's for quote, falsely accusing her, or they were never gonna see their grandchild again.
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And after reading hundreds of pages of documentation, listening to many hours of police interviews, and our tireless researcher scouring the internet for the truth, there's so much of this case that remains unknown. One of the biggest mysteries is how a judge could look at all of this and still decide to return Sophie's children to her care.
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As far as I know, she didn't go through with that lawsuit, likely because she and her husband couldn't pony up the fees themselves, given their already shaky financial situation. But after the next investigation, Megan took it to the big leagues, appearing in a national news story about being falsely accused, this time by Mary Bridge Hospital.
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There are two other hospitals, by the way, that have at one point or another reported my sister. So that's a conspiracy of four, if you're counting. This time, Megan did file a lawsuit against Mary Bridge. She also attempted to sue DCF, both for their investigation into her the second time and in a separate suit for not destroying the records from the first investigation.
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I have come to think of these lawsuits as part of the pattern of Munchausen by proxy. It's another chance to get all of the things that drive these behaviors in the first place. Attention, sympathy, publicity, and potentially ill-gotten money to keep up all these pursuits. Now, you're not just a victim of the cruel fate that delivered you a sick child. You're the victim of a false accusation.
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Now, you're not just the martyr trying to save your own child. You're an advocate for others, too. You are bravely fighting back against the evil system that tried to take your child away. And all of the time Megan has spent in court appears to have opened up a whole new career path for her.
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She has, I hear, been showing up quite a lot in dependency court, not fighting her own battle this time, but as a paid consultant doing medical forensics for the Office of Public Defense, defending other parents facing medical child abuse charges.
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The fact that her work is being funded by my very own tax dollars — and yours, if you're one of my Washington listeners — is just quite the cherry on the sundae. Especially because, according to someone I spoke to on background about Megan's second case, the reason the prosecutor gave for not pressing charges was that it would be too expensive.
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And when I ran this by a retired prosecutor familiar with the office in question, he said this tract. There is this notion that the state has endless resources to battle something in court, but it's just not the case, especially in child abuse. If there is a high enough profile case where the political will is there, sure, they'll find the resources. But my sister isn't Luigi Mangione.
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No one was going to lose their job if this went away. The sad reality is that no one is held accountable in most violent interpersonal crimes. The clearance rate in Washington state for murders is 47%, and 55% for aggravated assaults. And clearance rates don't account for what gets prosecuted. It only tracks cases where there were charges filed.
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How this all intersects with something like child abuse, where the thing being fought over is whether a crime even happened at all? Well, you can see how the numbers just get lower and lower.
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And there is, as I have learned, quite the little cottage industry around not only getting the children returned to parents and helping them evade criminal charges, but also in helping them turn around and sue the providers. As Sophie did after her criminal case was dismissed in her multi-million dollar lawsuit.
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This lawsuit is 152 pages long, but the gist of the argument it tries to make is that everyone was in a conspiracy against Sophie. Here is a quote from the opening pages.
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Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I relate with that so hard because I think – You know, I went into this process and we had originally sold the, you know, the first season of this show as a limited series and I fell out with that company before it launched because we got the, you know, tiniest legal pushback from my sister that I told everyone was coming and, you know, this whole fight. Right.
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And in some of those communications and then I have a reasonably dedicated carder of people that hate me. And, you know, one thing they always like to say is, oh, you're not an expert and you're not a this and you're not a that. And I was like, well, actually, you know, I am. And there's more than one way to become an expert.
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And when the top experts in the entire field consider you an expert, that's good enough for me. And it's sort of like you realize you're like, oh, well, none of these things are ever going to satisfy any of these people. Right. It's like no matter what you do, how many, you know, how much research you do.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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That's a really good response to that. You know what I'm like? Well, you know, I've written a book. I did a keynote for Stanford School of Medicine's conference. I mean, where do you draw the line with expert? And and then I think similarly as a journalist and unfortunately, you know, some of the pushback I had on.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes, And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Well, hello, V. Hi.
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Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Thinking of myself as a journalist, the call was kind of coming in from inside the house because that was my one of my original producers that I worked with.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But, you know, by the time I got to the Maya Kowalski case, which I was the only media outlet that was covering that in any kind of depth and actually reading through the thousands of pages of court documents and actually, you know, actually doing the work. I was like, well, yeah, I do deserve to call myself a journalist. But it did. It came from those challenges.
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And I was like, we need to reframe what we think of a journalist. And now that's to say, not every TikTok creator, not every podcaster is doing journalism.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Well, and my perception on that is that that's coming from a fear of if these credentials are not exactly the same as they were for me, then what does that mean about my work? And it's very interesting for me interfacing with some –
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Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
People who are a generation older than me in the field of child abuse or academics and have a lot of master's degrees, a lot of PhDs running around and me with my little Bachelor of Arts in creative writing. I'm actually on the whole, I'm really encouraged about how open a lot of those folks are that have dedicated their life to this because they recognize the need for change.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
new strategies, new ideas. And then there are those, you know, thankfully fewer people for whom the idea of someone like me is threatening.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
What's going on? Oh, man. You know, 2025 is 2025 and harder than I anticipated. I don't know if it's harder than you anticipated because you probably anticipated a lot more of this than I did.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
That's really beautiful. And I've heard you tell some version of that before or kind of reference Bob Ward's words background as an analogous point. And I appreciate it. And I think, yeah, like an insatiable desire to creep around on some person or topic is definitely a really strong entry point into journalism.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, it's like you're a weirdo.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I'm a gossip. You're a gossip?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And it's like, no, man. And I think if you don't have... The weirdo, you know, a producer that I'm working with on this upcoming season, Taj Easton, his take on this is manic curiosity. And I was like, oh my God, I love that so much. I have to credit him with that. But I was like, yes. I was like, if you don't get that feeling when you're covering something, especially if it is risky, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Especially if it is, you are going to have to take some measure of risk to report on it. It's like, if you don't have that feeling of like, oh, I want to do all the FOIAs and I want to read like everything, like, because I want to look for every... like piece in the thousand piece puzzle as we're putting this together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And even though the stuff that I am reporting on, obviously by its nature is extremely grim and it is difficult, but like the process is something that I really enjoy and can get into. And I think to the point of like the question of what makes you a journalist is, is that you're a weirdo. I think we've nailed it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
There is a lot going on in the world at the moment, and especially if you are a working parent like I am, you probably have a running list of things I really need to do that you forget about until suddenly you wake up in the middle of the night and remember that you haven't done them yet.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Get the right life insurance for you for less at selectquote.com slash nobody. Go to selectquote.com slash nobody today to get started. That's selectquote.com slash nobody. You can find all this information in our show notes. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
You know, now that you mention it, same because like I was married in an even year. I was born in an even year. Both my kids were born in even years. Correct. That's a good point. And then like 2011 was when my whole family thing came up. And I have to tell you, this is totally an aside, but I was spelunking through my old Facebook posts trying to find like archival whatevers.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, I mean, here on my show and in my world, we put some respect on the girls' gays and theys because that is the core of true crime, number one. And number two, I think those folks are more inclined to understand where telling stories... and telling stories about people. You know, we do all original reporting on the show for the most part, and a lot of it is, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
People telling us about their personal experiences, and it can very much and very directly on our show functions as a safety mechanism. The whole kind of ethos of the show is... If we talk about this issue, more people will know. Kids will be safer.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And if we talk about the specifics, if we name the people we're talking about, that's been the biggest risk I have taken as a journalist and making this show that other companies did not want to get on board with. And I understand because they watch their bottom lines. And just like you, not wanting to sell to NBC, didn't want anyone else telling me how to do this job.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I've been really lucky that I've gotten to keep the show independent because I was like, oh, just there's no that early experience with, you know, with the original company. It really made me realize I was like, okay, there is no other way to do what I'm trying to do here except independently. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah. And, you know, it's funny, V, because first of all, thank you for saying that. And thank you. Thank you for doing this interview with me. This is really such a treat. And it's it's a very full circle moment for me because I we originally met when I was I did an interview with you that that never aired because of all of the reasons that I've talked about of the original.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I found a post from myself on New Year's Eve going into 2011 where I said, I don't see any reason that 2011 isn't going to be the best year ever. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Well, and I'll say, V, like I give some grace to especially in those early days, like I've noticed, you know, and I've got I've gone on sort of increasingly. large podcasts other than my own, including, you know, including Armchair Expert and stuff like that, where I've talked about all of this stuff.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And it was surprising to me that nobody's sort of legal team, that these legal teams kind of relaxed. But I think it was because I'd gone first and I'd gotten to it to a lot of people. And then that sort of created a different you know, a different sort of ecosystem for it to go into.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And it's like a part of being in this game and the business side is that you have to be comfortable with, like, if you're doing an interview with someone else, it has to go through their legal team and their standards and what risks they're willing to take. And you kind of have to always be okay with that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah, yeah, stuff that can happen. And I mean, I, you know, again, like that, I had already been through that experience with my own show. And I want to talk about, like, I think actually with legacy media, I think a lot of people's trust in legacy media outlets is very shaken.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I think one of the things, certainly from my perspective, but I think this is probably shared by a lot of people that shakes it, is that it is necessarily tied to large media. commercial interests. And it is a really different sort of trustworthiness equation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I know. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
If you're talking about, you know, me, who's an independent podcaster, I'm the person if you want to trust what's going on in my show, you have to trust one person, and that's me. If I want to trust what's going on with vSphere and what's going on in your sub stack, which is excellent. Everyone should subscribe to it. Thank you. On Under the Desk News, I have to trust you vSphere, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I don't have to worry about what corporate interests, what billionaire that owns that outlet, you know, is leaning on the scales. And I think we saw this in a really, you know, in some kind of like shocking ways, even with, you know, like Washington Post.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You know, that like really sort of were very disorienting for me as a person who does, you know, who does have some faith in those outlets and understands that for the most part, those outlets are doing real journalism with real fact checking. And then you're just sort of like, wow, this is really like I think we sort of think of those places as trustworthy because they're big and robust.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Okay. I like that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But then actually those things can turn out to be weaknesses. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, and given how seismic these changes are in the media landscape, how can consumers evaluate what is a trustworthy news source and what isn't? And there's sort of like, I guess the question of like, I think no one news source is going to be a complete news source in this day and age. We do not have the evening news. We're never going back to that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
We're not going back to that sort of monoculture. But how can we evaluate whether a given news source or creator is trustworthy?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
That is a really good perspective, V. And, you know, just by way of introduction, you are my and many people's favorite and most trusted news source in these trying times. Thank you. And you are a journalist. You're a podcaster. You're a TikTok and YouTube and Substack creator. You do incredible, thorough fact check.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes or And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Well, V, one thing I really wanted to make sure to ask you about is, because this is one of my favorite YouTube videos that you did, was about the difference between misinformation and disinformation. Because we deal with a lot of both on this show. And this is like the way that you frame this is something I think about constantly. So can you walk us through this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, and I think for what we talk about on this show, I think about a lot. And even when I do interviews or in some of the coverage of the book or something, there'll be statements where I'm like, well, that's not quite the correct way to define Munchausen by proxy. Or there'll be some kind of small piece of misinformation or an old study or something like that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And that's the benign version of it. And it still can be a problem because a lot of people are potentially getting the wrong idea about something.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But it's very separate and distinct, as you know, as you explain, like from something like Mike Hickson Boggs work and the medical kidnapping pieces where I can see the architecture of how they put this together, because I do know so many of the facts in several of these cases where I'm like, ah, I've got it. You have a very like there is such a deliberate way they put it together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You know, so I think when you can see the architecture of how it's put together and what it's trying to accomplish, like to me, that is a signal. that that is disinformation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And we share a sort of unkillable hope and optimism with those people, I think, where like initially I really went in because, I mean, my whole origin story is really watching the media get A, this topic wrong, but then really watching that cross over into my actual sister and her case being covered by the media in this way that was so harmful and watching them use these horrible,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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horribly exploitative pictures of her daughter in medical contraptions over and over again. And just thinking these media outlets are contributing to the abuse. They're not just covering- Well, sure.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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insightful reporting and you somehow managed to stay positive which is truly you've been such a touchstone for me both as just a listener and a person who consumes your content but also as a creator and how to keep a light on in, I will say, an often particularly hopeless feeling corner of this cause that we talk about on the show. So I just thank you for all of that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Right. You know, so there's a lot of coverage of Munchausen by proxy, even if it's sort of straightforward coverage that is getting the facts right, that uses these photos. And I think that's a whole problematic thing. But, you know, and then in the medical kidnapping case,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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stories they're getting those photos from the parent who you know in my sister's case is the abuser right and they're using those photos to co-sign that abuser's version of reality and it's so damaging and I think um and because that parent isn't concerned about exploiting their child they're not putting any barriers on the kind of images that they'll share I think originally I went in and and it's just like I this really seems impossibly naive even though a few years ago
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But I went in and I was like, oh, these outlets, you know, Mike Hickson-Bogg, Taylor Mifandreschi from, you know, the local journalist here who covered it with him. They just don't know. They don't know the truth. I'll tell them the truth and then they won't do it. I'll be like, this doctor that you guys are slamming saved my niece's life. I'm telling you, I'm a family member.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I've been around this my whole life. And they have ignored it. They've ignored no matter how much evidence. And it's like, oh, it doesn't matter how many different ways or which framing I use to point out to them that they've gotten this wrong.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Media consumption, right? Not media accuracy, not doing those other parts of the job. And yeah, this journalist, Mike Kixenbach, has done a lot of these pieces. So he's very well known to my community. And I remember Detective Mike Weber, who's my co-author in the book, was just pointing out like, yeah, he just... Money. Like the answer is just money. The answer is just this gets clicks.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I was like, surely it can't be that. And I'm just like, OK, sometimes it really is. Sometimes people's motivations are really that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, us too. And I mean, we try and be because all of what we do really is trauma informed journalism when we're talking to people about their first person experiences, and it can be extremely tricky.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I really relate so much with that, that story about your mom, because there was a long period of time where, and even honestly, sometimes still, you know, where somebody asked me if I have any siblings. Sometimes I'm just like, no. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And, you know, I am, as I mentioned, a proud dust bunny.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, and I think, like, that really is, like, that's this type of lie that we should be extremely – give a lot of people a lot of grace for, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
So can you can you tell us how did you come to be under the desk news? How did this all get started?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah. I mean, thank you so much for sharing all of that. And that is, I feel like, such a deep bonding point between the two of us. And yeah, I mean, I feel the same way about my younger self right now. This is almost, we're coming up on 14 years since this happened. And I look back on my younger self and I'm like, love her, barely know her anymore.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, I love that. And, you know, you wouldn't think that my entire career becoming about this thing would be...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
how I got distance from it but strangely enough it has been because I think like the more that like it has turned out to be that I could make what was very triggering something that I could feel some control over and I mean when I look back at sort of this period between when this happened and when I started talking about it publicly which really sort of started five years ago
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I mean, there was a time when I couldn't be around kids, period, sick kids or otherwise. I just couldn't be around little kids without just losing it. Freaking out. Like when you lose a sibling in whatever way you lose them or you just have this huge thing that comes and splits your life into that you did not ask for and you did not cause.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
You feel so profoundly helpless that finding a way to be of help to other people has just turned out to be the best thing that could have ever happened to me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But it's...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I mean, here we are. It's just where I can't imagine sort of being anywhere else. And I have to tell you, I had this like really profound moment because I, you know, before this I was a novelist and that's what I thought I was going to do with my life, right? I thought I was going to write my cute little novels and just like boop-de-boop and, you know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And like I have sort of lived some version of that life, but then it was interrupted by this other life that I guess I got instead.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I remember thinking because I worked in book publishing, you know, from when I was 22 to my late 20s. And I like really, you know, gave me a very front row seat to developing this fantasy of being like, you know, published author and stuff. And I was like, I was a publicist. I got to go on these media things that I got to go in like the town car and like watch these authors and like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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go you know every once in a while we go to get do something fun like go to a morning show and yeah take the author and they'd get their glam and you just look at them and be like oh it's gonna be me someday and then you know a few weeks ago I was in New York and I was going to the Tamron Hall show which was super fun and you know got to go with Mike and got in the town car and did the glam and the whole thing and I just had this moment where I was like thinking about my younger self as I kind of always do when I when I'm in New York and I was just like I
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Okay. I was like, tell her she gets there. Don't tell her how.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And, you know, something I really wanted to make sure that we talked about, V, because, you know, I was really thinking about you when I was down in Texas after the book came out. Because I, you know, and this has been a really profound part of this experience that I did not see coming when I started making this show, is that it has been an opportunity for me to
Nobody Should Believe Me
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to really talk to so many different types of people and people in different places than I would normally go and go to these really like rural towns where I do a lot of my field reporting and spend time in just places I wouldn't necessarily normally go and really have this like deep and profound moment of like bonding and shared experience with people who have really different life experiences than me and really different politics than me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And that has been such a gift. And we have a lot of conservative listeners of the show. And when I was in Texas, you know, obviously, so that room was probably more, you know, and I, somebody had asked, you know, about Mike and I being kind of an unlikely pair, right? As a liberal mom from, you know, artsy-fartsy type, like from Seattle.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And Mike is a bachelor cop, you know, who's like, as I would say, less liberal, right? Like pretty conservative. And, you know, doing this work, I am constantly reminded that we do have more in common than we are often led to believe. And I was like, there are many people. people who are invested right now in turning us against each other. Don't fall for it. Don't turn on your neighbor.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Resist that. And I'm realizing I'm saying that to a group of people that doesn't agree with my personal politics. And I pointed to Sheriff Bill Weyburn and his family who were there. Which was so meaningful to me. And I was like, listen, you know, like I found people like people like the Weyburns who like I love and admire and we have so much mutual respect and understanding.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And like they don't agree with my politics any more than I agree with theirs. And they like had the trust in me to tell their daughter's story. And like that was so meaningful. And it's like. I say that while also having very strong feelings about what's happening. Politics is not my beat on the show, but it is very funny to me when people get on, like, expect me to be apolitical.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I'm like, I'm talking about... Everything is politics. Everything is politics. And especially like this, right? We're talking about child abuse. Yeah, especially this. The criminal justice system, law enforcement, these things could not be more political. Now, they do not break on where I'm like, I am a very left-leaning person. I don't think the left does a good job with this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I don't think the right does a good job with it. I think they both do better or worse with it in different places for different reasons. So it's not like a black and white thing, but it's certainly not apolitical. But nonetheless, it's like I really value this show as a space to have a mixed audience, I guess. And like, I know that you also have a mixed audience. I do.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
That's a great example. And I think, you know, just to give people an example of like kind of something that I've seen that comes from the left that is also sort of can be infected by, right? It's not just, we don't want to like just say that it's one or the other. Oh no, I got a left one coming up too. I would love to hear that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
It's like, you know, like I've seen with this like medical kidnapping beat, right, which is that's the big conspiracy theory that we are up against, right? You know, I've seen like that there are reasons that people on the right are susceptible to it because it fits into like a parent's rights, which obviously on the extreme is very negative.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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troubling and problematic so even people who are just more like geared that way can see it from from that standpoint of like more willing to create others yeah yeah and then and then like on the left it really fits into this like oh the system disenfranchises parents right so and that's true this is just not an example of that and like sometimes it really is just people don't know and and i it of course makes me think oh how many of these things am i
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like also doing that, right? Where I'm like, oh, something fits into my like thing that I care about.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
True Story Media. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Throw money in. year at this point.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, no, it's really true. And I think it feels like we live in this time of just an absolute fever pitch for conspiracy theories, right? Oh, sure, yeah. And one thing that I realize we have become sort of equipped on in this show is that we are talking to people, and I am a person, who... is in recovery for experiencing gaslighting, right? And I mean, like, real gaslighting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Someone is systematically making you doubt your version of reality. Someone has unsettled your ability to believe yourself and what you're experiencing. And that takes a long time to get over, and it's a hard thing to come out of. And we all, in these situations of these cases we cover on the show, go through some version of... oh my God, for some period of time, I was bought into this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I was bought into this thing and it was a lie and I'm an idiot. I caused harm. And I think when someone... has the courage to come out of that and not everyone does. And it's because like when people are bought in, sometimes they just go deeper and deeper. And I think it's really important to, you know, keep an open door for someone to come out of it anytime.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like, I mean, I can't say it's never too late because obviously there is harm being done. But like, I just think it's really important to make it a safe space for people to come forward, even if they have been bought in for some period of time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You know, we had in this last season, someone who'd been friends with the perpetrator for 10 years, and then listened to the podcast and realized, you know, and came out of it. And we had a really wonderful conversation about it. Again, not being Pollyannish about it at all, but how do we create conditions where we can come back together being so divisive as it is right now?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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It makes me trust you. you more. The fact that you're able to have the humility to say and recognize that you were a human being who made a mistake about something, that makes me trust you more. That makes me trust, oh, if we can take in new information and adjust their belief system accordingly, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah, I like that. And it's a really good example of like, you don't have to wholesale throw everything you believe in out the window to beat. And we're just to even like draw a limit. Well, so V, just a couple of last questions. I'd love just some... advice from you. I know a lot of my listeners love you. And like, how are you? Like, are you okay? Like, how are you coping with all of this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Because I think most of us are feeling pretty over many of us are feeling pretty overwhelmed by the news. And you are facing it for your job, dealing with it every single day. Like, how do you get through it? And how do you kind of like, what kind of pieces of very hard and earned wisdom can you pass on to us about dealing with such an overwhelming news environment?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah, I love that. And I think that you turned out to be the hero we needed in that period and going forward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I love that, V. And I believe that, too. And, you know, you said something in a recent episode of American Fever Dream where you were talking about this period after your brother's death where you were just really numb and just kind of out of your mind. And I really went through some things. And similar in the wake of what happened with my family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And then you had this purely beautiful description of sort of realizing that the world was still there. And that, like, you know, the I can't remember what you said, but I'll tell you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah. And then, you know, you do get that gift of resilience that I think both you and I have experienced. Well, V, I cannot thank you enough for being here. This has been such a joy. It's been such a treat. I know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Only your friendship. And maybe an introduction to your mom because she sounds amazing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I feel like she would like this show. If she was a night shift nurse who listened to the police scanner, I'm like, Maureen, do I have a show for you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Oh, Maureen, what an icon. V, please tell us, where can we find you? And what do you want people to do the most? What's the most helpful to you in maintaining this incredible independent media project that is you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I personally subscribe to the Substack. I love it. It's one of my, like, you know, I really trimmed down my news media diet as we were heading into this year, which turned out to be a good choice. And that was one that made my list, as well as your podcast, American Fever Dream with Sammy Sage, which you can find wherever you listen to podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
All right. Thanks. Thank you. Nobody should believe me. Case files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that anecdote. And I feel like, you know, that really speaks to why what you do works, because you are a very reliable, solid news source, but the delivery is very much... our friend V telling us some things in their suit or in their banana shirt.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I think that that's really something that, you know, especially again, to, you know, talk about the timing of it all, like in that moment when we needed both information and human connection, it really was this perfect time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I wonder for you, because this is something that I've really enjoyed listening to you talk about on your wonderful podcast that you do with Sammy Sage from Betches Media, American Fever Dream. It is one of my favorite podcasts, and I have loved listening to you guys, especially as you were talking about going to the Democratic National Convention and sort of talking about really
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
This transition that I feel like has really been speeding up and is it like kind of full velocity right now of this transition that, you know, you and I are the same age. And, you know, I have been in podcasting only the last couple of years, but have been in and around sort of media, working in books, working as a publicist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
you know, that we've been watching happen for, I don't know, the last 20 years, and that it suddenly is, you know, really accelerating of legacy media going away or changing shape dramatically and new media really coming to the forefront. I've loved hearing your thoughts about this on the show. And I wanted to ask you, for yourself, being that you started
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
this project that is now your full full-time job full-time gig right and like I have such a similar entry point right I started this as a limited series that I saw as a passion project that I saw I know and then lo and behold now it's my full-time job and I feel very lucky to have that but it was such an unexpected um career turn and you know I was always interested in journalism I you know went through a strong period of wanting to be Barbara Walters you know when I was growing up and like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And like really thinking that might be something that I wanted to pursue. But I did not plan to sort of become a journalist. And it's taken me a little while to sort of embrace, like just be able to say that, I think. I mean, you must have gone through kind of a similar sort of personal journey.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I wonder, like, when did you really make that transition to like, okay, this is not just something I'm doing in this lighthearted way. you know, way or, you know, and really like embrace that part of like, no, I am a journalist. You know, I deserve to be here as much as anybody. And you are a journalist, not a what did NPR call you? Newsfluencer. Not a newsfluencer. Oh, my God.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I mean, I love NPR. Have the toe bag. Love it. You know, I same. It was one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, of course they can. Yeah. And, you know, that was a call-in, not a call-out, right? When did you really sort of realize, like, oh, okay, we are doing journalism here. This has all the bells and whistles. This is as robust as reporting that you're going to see in a legacy media news outlet.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
This is an interesting theory, that the discovery of these diaries was part of some master plan on Sophie's part. And frankly, I'm not going to put anything past her at this point. But I've spent no small amount of time reading through and digesting these journals. And they often sound like Sophie is writing herself a very grandiose and fanciful story about what she's doing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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That this is an elaborate justification to herself about what she's putting her daughters through. That Sophie, actually, is the hero of this story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And following that, Adam Shapiro took on another medical child abuse case, Sophie Hartman. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.
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we learn from these diary entries about um about her dynamics with her children and in this section where she's being very honest and straightforward and she has this quote that um i'm so angry with my children abusive even hitting and pinching and yelling lord what have i become who is this bad soul it's me filth um you know and i it says like i want to be abused i crave pain
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Um, and obviously this is just, you know, disturbing to read. And I think, um, there's a through line here actually for, you know, I think one of the things that I didn't realize about this abuse when I was going in right before I, when I, when I just had my end of one, that was my personal experience was, um,
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and that we have learned is not the case from so many survivors, including, you know, Joe, who we both know who is on our fourth season, is that this abuse is not confined to the medical arena. There's this profound lack of empathy for the children. And I think, like, that journal entry from Sophie really expresses that.
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And then the other thing that really stuck out to me was these journal entries. You know, there are some journal entries from her older daughter, Em, that were just really, really heartbreaking. The investigative summary includes many journal entries from Sophie, but also some from Sophie's older daughter, M, as well as letters that she wrote to her mom. And these were so sad to read.
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While M wasn't the main subject of this investigation, she was also obviously deeply affected by what was happening in the household. And while there is less in here about M's medical history than C's, we do know that she'd been prescribed antidepressants and ADHD medications. And she writes in her journals about her brain feeling fuzzy and confused.
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And heartbreakingly, her journals also include reflections on her being a freak and Zambians being freaky people. And to the extent that Em was, to borrow Jim's metaphor, a prop in Sophie's play, her role seems to have been gymnastic star. You can see her straining for her mother's approval.
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In one letter to Sophie, she writes about feeling like she's just a gymnast and that she has to be a perfect one, a reflection we also heard about from the moms at the gym and Sophie's neighbor. M writes that she only wants to make her mom happy, but she feels like if she makes a mistake, her mom will be angry and yell, and she clearly blames herself for her mom's anger.
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The report also includes one of Sophie's responses, where she writes, quote, I'm sorry I put all my anger on you when you make a mistake. I'm sorry for screaming. I'm sorry for saying that you were being a shitshow.
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But the most disturbing narrative in these pages is the one about C's death. And these reflections are not isolated. Sophie was telling many people C would die young, and the forensic examination of her devices revealed a number of chilling searches.
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Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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In the spring of 2019, the day after Seattle Children's denies one of her requests to place a central line in her daughter and put her on TPN, which is intravenous nutrition, Sophie writes this. How is it that doctors who had never heard of AHC before they came to work today get to make decisions regarding her care?
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I will absolutely fail C if I fight for the duration of her life rather than the quality of it. The best decisions that have been made for C in the past have been big ones that I suggested far before any member of her team was ready to do it. Stalling those decisions only let doctors check off their boxes while her suffering was prolonged. Is this what it will always be like?
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Or are there doctors willing to take risks for the sake of her quality of life? In another entry that is undated, but presumably from around the same time, Sophie writes this. Later in this entry, God, or again, Sophie as God, responds, saying, She had been starting to talk even in this journal entries and elsewhere about quality of life over length of life.
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And, you know, had sent messages to friends saying, oh, well, when, you know, I was just thinking if she dies, I'll call Cassie and make her come lie in bed with me while I cry. I mean, it just really, it seems like she was.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I sort of wanted to run that theory by you. We can only speculate in this case or in any given case, but I sort of wonder if there is some point where the death of the child actually becomes more useful to the perpetrator.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
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Sophie as narrator in this particular case is especially compelling because she is literally narrating this imaginary world that she's building for herself. And as a writer, you can see in some of these entries that she's actively planning out her next book. You can also see in her writing how she is tying this all in to the grandest narrative of all, the notion that Sophie is on a divine mission.
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She frequently refers to C as her, quote, harvest, which is biblically loaded language that speaks to this idea that C and her suffering, and of course, Sophie's suffering as her mother, will bring souls to God, that there is a higher purpose for C's pain. Sophie talks about how suffering is holy and elsewhere asks God how he could bear to sacrifice his only son.
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Sophie is heroin and martyr all at once. The sacrifice of her daughter is positioned as divine. And in a very real way, when you look at the search terms from the forensic examination of Sophie's devices, you can see her storyboarding her next season.
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In the first year of the pandemic, Sophie starts weaving a new plot for C. Now, in addition to the age C diagnosis, she adds in the precocious puberty storyline. So to ground us, here is what happened in reality. Sophie brings C to an endocrinologist at Seattle Children's in July of 2020, reporting a bunch of symptoms that she says have her concerned for precocious puberty.
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In this exam, there are modest clinical findings, but these are discordant with lab results and a bone scan that shows no signs of precocious puberty. C also has an MRI to rule out any brain mass that might be causing the symptoms Sophie is reporting, and this comes back clear, and a follow-up examination of C shows her to be completely normal.
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Sophie then continues to push for a surgical hormone implant against doctors' recommendations, insisting that these, quote, cycles that C is experiencing are exacerbating her AHC episodes. And during this time, she also tells friends and providers that C is in full-blown puberty and that the likely cause is a brain mass.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So what do we know about what Sophie was up to on her devices during this time? Her search history shows numerous telling entries, including precocious puberty, pituitary tumor symptoms, and pituitary adenoma surgery.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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She also searches supra-catheter, which is a surgically placed catheter for people who cannot urinate on their own, which is one of the symptoms that Sophie was reporting to the endocrinologist. Sophie also looks up a foundation that is dedicated to children with endocrine disorders. So it's not just the next diagnosis she's pursuing.
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She's also looking for the worst possible reason for this diagnosis, a brain tumor, which she reported to see doctors and teachers, as well as a possible surgery for that tumor to pursue and additional surgical interventions for the symptoms she's reporting. And she's looking for the next foundation to support all of these efforts. It's honestly diabolical.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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There are also, as Jim mentions, a few searches around cancer as well as searches related to leukemia. At first, I assumed this had to do with another possible storyline for C. But then I saw that one of the searches was Down syndrome and leukemia. And I remembered that during the investigation, Sophie was actively attempting to adopt a child from China with Down syndrome.
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It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
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She also looked up Infusion Center Valley Medical. Now, infusion care can be used for a number of things, but it's best known for chemotherapy treatments. So again, this looks like part of a plan. And Valley Medical, by the way, this is a brand new hospital in the area that she can try out after ostensibly having worn out her welcome at Mary Bridge and Seattle Children's.
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Sure seems like she has her sights set on a whole new spinoff series. And while her daughters are the primary victims in all of this, they are far from the only people who got hurt.
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Groups dedicated to AHC didn't just support Sophie emotionally. They supported her financially, helping pay to send her and C out to Duke to see Dr. McCotty. And as for the research, Sophie was reporting things way outside the norm for AHC. like severe gastrointestinal issues and 32-day-long episodes.
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It's easy to see how a case like this, in such a small sample set of real cases, could really throw off the data. So far from Sophie's efforts with C, quote, helping the cause, as Sophie wrote about, or, quote, leading to a scientific breakthrough, they're messing with that progress and taking resources that should be going to children who desperately need them.
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Back in the spring of 2021, C and M are living with Sophie's sister, Sam, and her mother, Anne. Sophie is charged in May of 2021, but her parents quickly secure a bond to bail her out.
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She is granted supervised visitation with the girls, and while Sophie at first claims she is staying with a friend quite a ways away in Mercer Island, it comes out later that she is in fact staying very close to the house where the girls are. This whole thing is an epic fail, just an absolute disaster from a protocol standpoint.
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As we outline in our American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children guidelines for these investigations, it is crucial that children are not placed with a family member who does not believe the abuse is happening. The guidelines also recommend against visitation because of the intense psychological manipulation involved in this abuse.
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And certainly, allowing a suspected perpetrator to bring the children food and drink, as Sophie did, should never be allowed. No one doubts that separating a child from their parent is very hard on everyone. But when the safety of the child is in question, we have to take that seriously. Detective Lee explains why it's necessary to be vigilant around custody placements in any abuse case.
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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Sophie's family has never given any indication now or then that they believe anything other than that Sophie is a wrongly accused mother, meaning they cannot be counted on to protect the girls from her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Dr. McCotty himself, who both Sophie and her attorneys insisted was the one who really understood C's health, told the police that C needed to be with an objective observer and that if grandmother is going to be a bias observer, that is going to be a big, big problem. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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And I think I think they have to do that. I mean, I don't think you can. But he should have, I suppose. I mean, if he gave you the impression in your first conversations with him that he could do that, that he could like because you were paying the bills sort of act on your behalf. I mean, I don't think that would be legal or ethical.
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And that was... Right, sort of things have come to a head now. Yes.
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For example, in my sister's case, one of the damning pieces of evidence was video surveillance of her dumping her daughter's anticoagulant medication onto her hospital bedsheets. This was an event that preceded the child being admitted to the pediatric ICU with a life-threatening blood clot. This was not the only piece of evidence, not by a long shot.
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If it sounds like we were woefully naive about all of this, we were. We had never had any interactions with DCF before the first investigation into my sister 14 years ago. And though I disagreed with my dad's decision to hire attorneys for Megan and her husband Andy in the beginning, all these years later, now that I'm a parent myself, I understand.
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He wanted to protect his child and his grandchild. He thought he could influence the outcome. And when he realized he couldn't, he stopped paying Adam Shapiro's bills. But Shapiro has stuck around, and he's done a lot of work on my sister's behalf. He also defended her in the second investigation over my niece, and he sent me various cease and desist letters over the years.
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I suspect it's likely that some of this work has been pro bono, and he and Megan obviously became close, which could explain how she got hired on the Hartman case despite having, to my knowledge, no legal training. I can understand Sophie's family being in shock when this all came up, and for doing what people with means usually do in a legal crisis. lawyering up.
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It's really difficult to accept that someone you love could be capable of this, and I understand parents wanting to protect their daughter. So I can forgive them for not knowing what to do right away, just as I can forgive my brother-in-law and his parents for not seeing what we saw right from the beginning.
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What I can't forgive is staying in denial and letting the children suffer while you're presented with more and more evidence that something is wrong. The first investigation into Megan, prompted by her push for the G-tube surgery, came to, well, not much. After an eight-month investigation, DCF declined to file dependency, meaning that Megan would regain full custody of her son.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
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There was no criminal investigation this first time, though there should have been. Whether it would have made a difference is another question altogether. My parents and I had been thoroughly iced out by the end of the first investigation. We were the enemy who'd accused Megan of abuse.
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But from what the social worker was able to share with us, it sounds like the court essentially told Megan that she needed some therapy. Megan frames this first investigation as going nowhere because DCF found no evidence of abuse. But a great many DCF investigations end this way, with a parenting plan and nothing further.
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And given how prevalent the idea of medical child abuse being a matter of a mom's mental health is, I can't say I'm surprised with this outcome. My parents and I were bereft when DCF didn't file for dependency. They'd revealed to Megan and her husband early on that my mom had told the doctors about her concerns, and this revelation had blown up my family.
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And then they hadn't done anything to protect the kids. But then, not long after this all happened, my father got a message from my sister's husband, Andy. He'd been on his own journey of revelation with Megan, completely separate from the abuse investigation.
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Megan's crippling debt, much of this from unpaid medical bills, had come to light, and there were threats, Andy told my dad, to garnish his wages. This was bizarre because my dad had asked Megan many times to send him all of her remaining bills and he'd pay them. But of course, then he'd see them, so maybe not such a mystery why she didn't share. And it wasn't just the money.
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In a detail that I thought was a bizarre outlier to Megan's story, until I heard it from multiple other fathers who'd been married to perpetrators, Andy had discovered evidence of numerous affairs. We were honestly relieved when this all came out, because Megan couldn't blame any of this on us. And now that Andy had seen how deceptive she could be with his own eyes, he'd come around, right?
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In a lengthy series of emails between him and my father, Andy tells him that he wants to help us reconcile with Megan. He said he knows Megan needs help, but he continues to insist that she'd never lie about her child's health, that their son really does have all of these issues.
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In that case, my dad writes to him, please send us his medical records so we can see for ourselves and put our concerns to rest. He refuses, telling my dad that it's, quote, not appropriate to share them with him, which is pretty rich coming from someone who is hitting up his estranged father-in-law for money.
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The back and forth continues until Andy arranges a meeting with him, my father, and Megan.
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Yeah. I mean, were you surprised at the gall of that? They were in a, it's not surprising in the context of Megan and her behavior, but like, It's sort of a shocking move in some ways.
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So they wanted you to fund their legal pursuit of suing Children's Hospital for falsely accusing her. And what did you have to say to that?
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I believe. But I mean, was that your last conversation with Megan?
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Any family member who finds themselves in this situation faces a horrible choice. Do the right thing to protect the children and risk your relationship with the perpetrator, or look the other way and become an enabler of the abuse. And if the state doesn't do anything, or if they're not successful in court, you lose both your family member and their children forever.
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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And as the children's aunt and grandparents, we don't have any rights. So speak up or don't. It's a hard choice, but to me, it's a clear choice. You don't ignore it when children are being harmed. Megan's husband and his parents chose denial. And I will never forgive them." But Sophie's parents were in a different position than mine.
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For one thing, there was no partner and no in-laws who could provide support if they didn't. And they were paying Sophie's legal bills. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to afford Shapiro or Megan to come in and bend the system to her will. So while I can afford them their initial shock, they were sitting in these hearings.
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They've seen everything I've presented to you in this series, and likely much more, because nothing from the actual dependency proceedings is in the public record. And when you keep supporting someone long past when you should have known better, as I discussed with my mom, Karen, you're no longer just enabling abuse. You're participating in it.
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You've been presented with so much evidence about the abuse, so much evidence about the about her deception, and you have chosen to disregard all of that and give her the ability to keep doing this. I mean, somebody it's like that's the thing is like, you know, it's come down to the same thing with Sophie. Somebody has to keep paying the bills.
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Like eventually, if you run out of people who are supporting you, if you get to the end of the line. So it's like the people who are like the people who are doing that, like you are supporting an abuser. You're giving them, you might as well be handing them the weapon. You know, it's sort of like that is the weapon.
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So I think for like grandparents and aunts, like even, you know, if they're listening, like I hope that they are telling those kids that they have attributes other than being sick, that they are capable, that they are whole people who deserve love and recognition. And they've failed them in so many ways, but I hope that they are still, because we didn't get that chance.
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We didn't get that chance to love them and care for them. We were so villainized and like really watching for me watching you and dad be villainized when like I know what good parents you were and grew up in the same house. And like I know how much we would have loved to be in those kids lives.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. When I cover Munchausen by proxy cases, I approach them with a central question. If this case is not Munchausen by proxy, then what is going on here? Now, I did reach out to Sophie to ask her if she'd like to give us her side of the story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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At the heart of this work that has become so central to my life, it has always been this, a message to my niece and nephew, a way back if they should ever be looking for it, and a message to those who are still in their lives to keep eyes on them and to reinforce that they are whole people, not just the story their mother wrote for them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
I felt a bit conflicted about covering this season's story because I don't have the cooperation of the family. But I ended up feeling that it was all the more important because I believe the Hartmans have turned their back on these children. Anne and Sam eventually went back to Michigan.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
The conditions we explained earlier in this episode stayed in place for some period of time, but were ultimately lifted and the case was officially dismissed with prejudice, meaning it can't be brought back to court, in November of 2023. The children are back with Sophie, more isolated now than they were before.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
And Sophie didn't just follow my sister's footsteps in her battle to get her children back. She kept on with the Megan Carter playbook. Next step, sue everyone. Next time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact checking by Aaron Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and Engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
Special thanks to my APSAC committee colleagues, Dr. Jim Hamilton and Detective Michael Lee. Thank you also to Olivia LaVoie and to my mom and dad. It was very special to be able to sit down with them for the show, and we will be releasing those full conversations in a future episode.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
We never got a response, but that's a standing invitation. Sophie, if you're listening, we would be happy to hear you out. But just as we did get plenty from Sophie in her own words via her memoir about her travels to Zambia, we do hear Sophie's account of the time leading up to this investigation via her journals.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
And if you are inclined to believe that Sophie Hartman is innocent, this is one of the hardest things to explain away. When Sophie's children were placed in protective custody in March of 2021, the officers also served her with a residential search warrant.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. As medical child abuse cases play out in court, they often become fixated on a certain detail.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
In the search of her rent and home, the police picked up a number of journals, and Detective O'Rourke's investigative summary, which is in this case an incredibly detailed narrative, includes scans of about two dozen journal entries that the detective had found were especially relevant to the case. These are harrowing to read, but also fascinating.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
They are some of the most direct insights I've ever gotten into the mind of someone who engages in these behaviors. Much of Sophie's writing in her journals is as florid and purple as her memoir. Many entries are written directly to God, who sometimes writes back.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
And many, though not all, of these entries are dated, which gives us insight into what Sophie is thinking and feeling during a particular medical event. For example, when C is just under two years old, she visits the University of Washington Center for Adoption Medicine, where Sophie reports that she is having seizures and weakness on her right side.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
An MRI reveals a slight static encephalopathy, and the doctors report that this could be indicative of mild cerebral palsy. This is long before C's diagnosis of AHC, at the beginning of this very long road. A few days later, Sophie writes in her journal, quote, I trust you, Lord. I do. I lay it all down.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
The heartache, the unknown, static encephalopathy, global development delay, epilepsy, speech and vision impairments, cerebral palsy, drug exposure, all of it. She then lists out a number of doctors' names and some other names as well, possibly people on her care team, though we don't know. And Sophie writes, all of them. I lay down. I need a word.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
God or Sophie as God then responds, Sophie, quietly persist. I see it all. Do not waver as her advocate. Just keep moving forward. In another entry, Sophie lays out a laundry list of symptoms and asks God to, quote, bring it into the light and to, quote, give the doctor's wisdom to see beyond C's cuteness and charm.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
There were 73,000 pages of medical records subpoenaed in this case, which were reviewed by a child abuse pediatrician who found extensive evidence of abuse. And much like Sophie Hartman's daughter, after being separated from my sister and observed by the hospital, my niece's health improved drastically in a short period of time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
God, bring forth all that she is to light, all the damage done to her brain, all that isn't working properly in her body, all that is frustrating for her, all that is debilitating, all that is destructive. Bring it all into the light.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
She ends this entry with a lengthy list of diagnoses, which, with the exception of cerebral palsy and static encephalopathy, no doctor appears to have mentioned to her. Many of Sophie's journal entries read like a kind of fever dream, but one entry in particular is utterly straightforward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
This entry was on a loose-leaf page, which was undated, but from context, clearly after Sophie had adopted her girls. In this wrenching entry, she seems to be confronting her demons head on, laying out a series of events starting from childhood and up through her time in Zambia and as an adult. She writes, "'How can I embrace my story if I don't understand it? How can I do this? I am bad.'"
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
She remembers this pattern going back to when she was four years old, writing, Later in that entry, she writes, She recalls faking a hand injury in high school, faking a knee injury, mono, and meningitis in college.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
She recalls a surgery she had on her ankle and remembers lying to friends about it becoming infected, and then lying about some gynecological issues around the time she went to Zambia. In light of what came next, Sophie's lies about her own health feel a bit minor. But these details mirror my sister's story just almost beat for beat.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
My sister had this knee surgery where they didn't find anything once they went in. Sophie talks about faking a knee injury of her own. The gynecological complications, it all just really feels like a playbook. And this journal entry from Sophie gave me such a window into what my sister's experience of this own part of her life might have been like. Sophie writes, quote,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
And this entry seems to draw a very clear line from lying about herself to what came next. It ends in desperation. She writes, quote, "'So angry with my children, abusive even, hitting and pinching and yelling. Oh Lord, what have I become? Who is this bad soul? It's me, filth.'" These entries were a lot to process, so I brought in a heavy hitter to help me unpack them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
But from the documentation I've seen, her lawyer Adam Shapiro seems to have somehow really honed in on this video evidence, arguing that Megan was actually using one type of syringe rather than a different type of syringe that the hospital said she was using, and therefore the hospital staff and police officers didn't see in that video what they thought they saw.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
As someone who has dedicated his career to studying this abuse, Jim had also never seen anything quite like these journals. And we talked about Sophie's recounting of her own history with medical deception.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
Jim and I work closely together. We're colleagues on the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by Proxy Committee, and also at the nonprofit Munchausen Support, where we both serve on the board.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
We spend no small amount of time in this group discussing the utility of the psychiatric diagnosis of factitious disorder imposed on another, which again is the official name for the disorder underpinning Munchausen by Proxy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
The notion of this being primarily a mental illness often does more harm than good in court, where it tends to either create confusion about a perpetrator's culpability or just add one more complicated diagnosis to the mix for the two sides to fight over.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
But as Jim says, it's really impossible to tell the story of what's happening in these cases, either in court or anywhere else, without explaining why someone would ever engage in this behavior that seems so ghastly to most people. It establishes a motive.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
If this all sounds like it doesn't make much sense, it doesn't. No criminal charges were ever filed against my sister. Following the family court's return of her children during the active police investigation, detectives ultimately referred the case to the prosecuting attorney in April of 2020, and that prosecuting attorney declined to file charges.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
So why write all this down? Was she trying to soothe her own internal conflict? Was she really asking God for help? Did she really believe God was answering?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. So her chronicles of C's actual sort of health journey, those would have likely been admissible in court, you think? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, those are the most striking to me because, yeah, they do really show evidence of the planning.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And this sort of, you know, I think between that and the Internet search history that they found, you do really it really does paint this picture of someone making and executing a plan. And she expresses frustration with the doctors that don't want to go forward. And she talks about that. help the doctors be brave enough to see the truth about C's health beyond the facade of how cute she is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And it's very striking that she's pushing this narrative of her daughter being so much sicker than anyone else thinks she is. Then there's all of the stuff about death and that to me is just so striking given that we know she's writing this in the context of not having been told by a medical professional that her child is going to die and she's talking about
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We'll be doing some follow up on previous seasons, and I'll also be doing some fun crossover episodes with other podcasters I love. So stay tuned for all of that. As always, if you would like to support the show, You can subscribe on Patreon or Apple Podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
having these conversations with God, where God says, give C to me, and talking, recounting conversations that she's having with her daughter about her going to heaven, and etc.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And that, to me, I feel like even if you're sort of giving this the most generous read of whatever sort of explanation you could come up with about this is an anxious parent, this is a parent who really thinks she's doing the best for her child. I just don't see how you explain that away.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
It certainly seems to me, looking at this case, and this is one of, again, an extremely thorough investigation that Detective O'Rourke did. And kind of like no notes on that, right? I mean, really did, like, it seems like really she went above and beyond.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
You'll get ad-free listening as well as some great bonus content from this season and my twice monthly subscriber show, Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours with Dr. Bex. This month, Bex and I are going to be covering The Anatomy of Lies, which is the documentary about the Elizabeth Finch case. So you won't want to miss that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, and two questions about that, or one observation, one question. I am curious, because something that's come up in another case that we're working on is that there was eventually a family placement, but before that, for a period of time, they were placed with a medical foster parent.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Because one of the things, if you have a child that has a really severe medical condition, is that it is not safe to place them with someone who isn't a very experienced caretaker. So obviously, they would have given Sam and Sophie's mother, Anne, some guidance on what came up with the medical. But it was interesting reading between the lines of some of the
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
of these reports that were in the second investigative summary about them reporting medical issues with C. And it strikes me that, you know, we know from when C was discharged after the first you know, period of shorter period of separation from Sophie while she was in the hospital is that she was physically doing really well, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
That she was not if she had been extremely medically fragile, presumably they would not they either wouldn't have discharged her or they would have discharged her to a medical foster family. Is that right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
She did have visitation that was only supervised by some private company that they hired and then also her mom and sister. And even I was reading in the investigative summary that on one of these instances, she brought food with her. And that just made me want to bang my head against the wall.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And if you are a subscriber, you will get every episode of season six on the day that it launches. If monetary support is not an option, we have a free tier of Patreon where you can listen to some select episodes. And of course, rating and reviewing on Apple and leaving comments on Spotify, as well as telling others about the show, are great ways to help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, and I think to your point about putting the mom and the sister in a really difficult position, because I think we both understand why kinship placements are preferred in a lot of situations, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
You're absolutely traumatizing a kid, even if it needs to be done. It is traumatic for a kid to be taken away from their parents and that is a hugely stressful and difficult situation and very sad. And if you can have them with people that they know and love rather than people who are strangers, obviously that's preferable. But it creates so many issues in these cases.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And in particular, then it puts, you know, the people who are doing that supervision in an impossible situation because that's going to cause a lot of.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
uh conflict with the parent if they are not sort of being the maximally uh you know sort of deter deferring to that parent and you can see in this report how it read to me that sam and anne seemed very anxious about c's health you know there was like an instance of them calling an ambulance for what turned out to be a behavioral episode and
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
you know just this kind of like well we need a specific contact at the hospital and just making these kind of like somewhat outrageous seeming requests and i i sort of assumed that that was coming from from sophie um they may not be necessarily actively lying to the police but they are not seeing things clearly and in fact that was pointed out by dr makati when he said
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
If this child is placed with a maternal grandmother, if she's not able to clearly evaluate what's happening, that's going to be a huge problem.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Your support is how I keep making this show as an independent podcaster, and I am deeply grateful to all of you. Now, on with the show. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, it certainly sounded that way from her interview. And again, this is a really direct parallel, not surprisingly, since they had the same attorney, since my sister was working on this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
This is a direct parallel to the placement decision that happened in my niece's case where she was placed with my sister's in-laws who were making no secret of the fact that they did not find these accusations credible and told the police that they felt like it was a witch hunt.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And they admitted that they were letting my sister be there for 11 hours a day or something like that. And that's just not, you know, there's no way that that's safe. And we don't know what all was happening. in this case, but certainly Anne did not then, and none of her family members have ever given any indication that they think that this was anything other than a false accusation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So I think that inability to protect the girls, even if their intentions were good, is really notable.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I do think that there is a possible role for prosecutors in these cases to be themselves better educated and able to educate judges when it comes to that. In this case, we have this interesting chain of events where Sophie is charged.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Got it. So does that not always happen?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Interesting. So that is kind of all systems go. If the D.A. says so, like you, you take this step, you get this warrant. We're going to do something about it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
so they absolutely had the criminal laws available to them to hold her accountable they just chose not to you know something i was speaking to a former prosecutor from this area and we were talking about why these all the sort of complicated constellation of reasons that these cases are so challenging and one of the things that he brought up uh brought up was cost
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So, you know, these are expensive cases at court. I think there is this completely divorced from reality assumption that the state has endless funds with which to pursue justice. child abuse charges. And that is not the case. I understand where these are costly to try and that makes sense.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And I think a certain amount of, you know, realism and living in the world that we wish that, you know, that didn't come into play. And of course it does. But I think that there's sort of a piece we're not looking at of what is the cost, like what is the actual financial cost of letting them go? Because number one, they turn around and wage these lawsuits.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And it has really struck me covering so many of these cases over the years what an absolute resource black hole these perpetrators are because they are taking up money and resources that are meant for legitimately sick children and they're taking up space you know there are there are we know how imperfect these systems are and there are parents who should, you know, get their children back.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And it's like, those things get shoved down on the docket. And it's they take up judges time, they take up, you know, I mean, they take up an unspeakable amount of resources. And so letting them carry on with that. And in fact, I think in many instances, adding fuel to the fire of Oh, now you can go on and say you were falsely accused of abuse and become the victim there. And
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
you have a new lawsuit and you have a whole new project, it really unleashes this absolute sort of vector of resources that is kind of unmatched. And I think you see it in this case with Sophie and the fundraising, and you see some element of this in all cases. And I think there's just an element where these people are really grifters at the end of the day.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. And I've thought a lot about in this case in particular. So you have, you know, which is a pretty common pattern that, you know, you have a child that has one in a million rare neurological disorder and they're seeking treatment from. And so basically, you know, by saying, and it's, it's a false statement,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
it's a false setup of does the child have the disease or not that will determine whether abuse is happening, right? Because the child could have, she could have AHC, does not negate the possibility of abuse. After reading Dr. Wainwright from Children's that she does not have AHC, I feel pretty comfortable saying that in all likelihood she does not have AHC.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
But having gone through this case and having it dismissed, that appears to have reinforced Sophie's narrative. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, And I worry about them being susceptible because of some of these other factors. I mean, is that a concern that you share?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. Well, Mike, any other kind of final thoughts on this case and what we can learn from it?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We got PhDs for dates, guys. Right, right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
All right. Well, Mike, we're going to talk to you again about a bunch of other things coming up on the show. And thank you so much for being with us. And congratulations on your new life as a published author.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So I wanted to tell you I have been sharing all of these nice messages with Chalice and she said that you are such a lovely group of people and I could not agree more. She also wanted me to tell you that she is so grateful for how this episode landed, and peace and blessings to you all.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
You got it. All right. Thanks, Mike. Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Hey, Mike.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I'm hanging in there. How are you doing?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Is your time away from work is permanently time away from work. Is it not? Now you are officially retired.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, you'd probably be kind of a menace if you weren't working. I don't know where all that Mike Weber energy goes. You're not working.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. So, Mike, we will have you back on to do your Mike Weber tells all or tells some post-retirement special. But today you're going to talk to us about the Sophie Hartman case, which we just covered in season five of the podcast. And, yeah, you have reviewed a whole bunch of documentation in this case. You've listened to the season.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. First of all, thank you so much for all of the incredible feedback on season five. I've gotten so many comments and emails about the season and especially about my interview with Chalice Howard that aired last week as our unexpected episode nine.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We spoke to another one of our APSAC colleagues, also a Detective Mike, Detective Michael Lee, about this case as well. But, yeah, we're excited to have you on to just kind of do a little bit of a debrief on this case and get your thoughts on it, because this was one of the more extensive and thorough police investigations I've really ever seen on one of these cases.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And yeah, we're just curious to know your thoughts on this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Well, actually, though, Mike, I do have an answer to that. Oh, okay. Good. Yeah. So they, I believe, because I was in communications in the public record department, there is, I think, so much evidence from the social media that that has just not yet been confirmed. They have not yet had the ability to redact that and produce it. So I think that exists somewhere. I think she did get that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Today we've got a bonus episode with friend of the show, and of course my co-author on my new book, The Mother Next Door, Detective Mike Weber, breaking down some elements of the Sophie Hartman case that we didn't get to in our episode with the other Detective Mike, Michael Lee, because some of that documentation came in later in the game. And that is Adventures in Foyer Request for you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I just think that's not available yet. This record request is still open. And there was also quite a lot of video evidence, which I think is... I would imagine extremely time intensive to redact.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, and so you're talking about her older daughter Em's gymnastics coach was interviewed by the police, and we did not really get into this during the show. And that gymnastics coach had a number of interesting observations.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
One of the interesting observations in there was that for some periods of time, I think this was during COVID while this was happening, during whatever phase of COVID where we were sort of
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
You could get you could you'd be somewhat in person, but it was still somewhat limited that she would that Sophie would sometimes leave both of her daughters at the gym for periods of time and that both this coach and some of the parents at the gym had noticed there was a huge discrepancy in her younger daughter sees actual physical abilities versus what Sophie was saying they were.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
That is striking, and it's really sad because I think that really gets to, you know, as we talk about, obviously, the criminal investigations are very focused on usually acts of physical harm, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
But then that really speaks to the psychological damage that this abuse does of telling someone that they can't do something, that they'll never be able to do it, and sort of having this doom and gloom picture of that person's future.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
A reminder that we've got our Season 5 Mailbag episode coming up, so get your comments and questions in now. You can email us or send us a voice memo at hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Again, that's hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Or if you're listening on Spotify, you can leave a question in the comments and we will grab it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And back to this question about the journalist, because I was really interested to talk to you about this. And actually, when we had Detective Michael Leon, we had not yet received this part of the public records request. So regretfully, we did not get to talk to him about this piece of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
But these journal entries, I mean, for me, I'd never seen anything like this in case files where we had so much that was in a presumably unguarded kind of moment of a really direct line into the thoughts of a perpetrator. You know, we often have plenty in their narrative, right? But it's like a public narrative. So you sort of assume that
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
anything that's on their social media or that they're doing in the actual media, which we have plenty of that, Sophie, too, right? She's on the local news, she's on social media a lot. But you sort of assume that that's like a performance, right? And then this to have this sort of interior view was very different.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And I wonder, like, yeah, what did you think of this collection of Sophie's musings and what stuck out to you about those?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Interesting, yeah. I was gonna ask you actually if you thought, like how you thought these would have played at trial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We are hard at work right now on our Season 6, which is set to air later this spring. And I know I always say this, but we have really never done anything like this one on Nobody Should Believe Me. So all I can say is buckle up. In the meantime, we've got a whole new batch of Case Files episodes for you. We are going to be covering a couple of cases that are in the headlines right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And this is Sophie's mother, Anne, in her conversation with a Renton detective.
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As a reminder, Sophie's parents live all the way in Michigan, so they weren't there on the day-to-day. In fact, they saw the girls pretty rarely. How often do you see the girls?
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These descriptions struck me because there was only one report from a physician of witnessing any symptoms at all in C. During one visit with Seattle Children's, a physician named Dr. Bray reported C having some behavioral issues, something like Art describes in his interview. Now, behavioral issues can be part of HC, especially because the disorder can cause severe developmental delays.
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People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.
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But behavioral issues alone are not indicative of a child having a rare neurological condition. Dr. Bray also noted that the longer the quote, episode went on, he had the sense that the child was more aware and more purposeful in her actions. And according to Sophie, C wasn't just impacted by this disorder, she was going to die from it.
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Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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Sophie frequently told people that C wasn't likely to live past childhood, but many of the patients in long-term AHC studies are in their 50s. Sophie nonetheless seemed preoccupied with C's death. She would frequently tell people that she wasn't sure how long they had with her. And she makes many references to C being a, quote, ticking time bomb.
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This seems a clear reflection of the language from the film that I mentioned, which I know Sophie had seen as well because she posted about it on social media, and which her sister mentions in her police interview.
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Having watched this film, the context the parents use this term in is to reference the unpredictability of their children's episodes and the disruptive nature of it to daily life, i.e. that they could have a painful episode anytime, not that they could, as Sophie says, leave us at any time. So this all begs the question, how life-threatening is this diagnosis? So I'm interested in sort of...
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Especially in terms of like children. I mean, is this a fatal or terminal illness? I mean, is this a terminal diagnosis? Would that language be used?
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And this wasn't just talk. Sophie began requesting palliative care for C as early as 2018, but Seattle Children's told the police she was never a candidate for this type of care, which focuses on alleviating pain and discomfort rather than treating an illness or disorder.
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In spring of 2019, about a year after C's AHC diagnosis, Sophie began requesting more extreme interventions in C's eating, including getting a central line placed and pursuing TPN, which gives children nutrition intravenously. We were talking about some of those gastrointestinal complications, and I realize there's a huge range here.
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You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
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But have you seen a situation where a child with AHC was put on TPN?
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Dr. Zupontz likewise said she'd never heard of a child with AHC going into palliative care. Now, palliative care is not only used for end-of-life care, but especially in children, when palliative care is brought in, it's because death is a distinct possibility. As Dr. Becks, pediatric hospitalist and frequent contributor to this show, explains here.
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The police also asked Dr. McCotty from Duke about Sophie's request for palliative care, and he was surprised by this and stated that, quote, most of his AHC patients would not be candidates for palliative care and would not apply for such a program. Dr. McCotty also told the police that referring to AHC as a terminal illness was very inappropriate.
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He likened it to epilepsy, where there's certainly an increased risk of death, but many people live to an old age. He said probably less than 10% of AHC patients die in childhood, and these deaths were due to complications from an episode.
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So to recap, Sophie insists that C has AHC, despite her not having the genetic marker for it and the fact that no one else has ever witnessed something that could correctly be identified as an AHC episode. She also claims that C is terminal and appears fixated on the child's impending death. She is moving her toward last resort interventions such as TPN and palliative care.
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And by the time she's six years old, C has undergone two surgeries for gastrointestinal issues that Sophie claims are severe enough to warrant them. And in 2020, Sophie begins pushing for a third surgery for a hormonal implant. So was any of this medically necessary?
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The doctors from Seattle Children's Child Abuse Team had this to say, quote, The following is a list of problems, symptoms, behaviors and diagnoses for which there is no documented objective evidence. Excessive vomiting or dehydration, chronic diarrhea,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
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hematomesis, which is vomiting blood, seizures, prolonged paralysis, 32 days straight, prolonged apnea, not breathing, low blood oxygenation, prolonged lack of urine output, speech or language pathology, recurrent ankle sprains, need for any orthotics, wheelchairs, gait trainers or leg braces, and terminal illness.
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Following the separation from Sophie in March of 2021, C was observed by hospital staff for more than two weeks. As far as we could tell, this was the longest she'd ever been away from her mother since the adoption. This separation test is crucial in MBP investigations. If the reported symptoms persist, then you know right away that the mother isn't the cause. And if they don't?
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Another question, you know, I had sort of asked you, and again, I recognize that I'm asking you to speculate, so only to the degree that you feel comfortable. There was actually a prolonged hospital stay after the separation. It was 16 days, I believe.
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With an AHC patient, and given that the reports were that the episodes were extremely frequent, would it be pretty unusual during that time where a child's being very closely observed that no one would record any signs or symptoms?
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Right, and just actually a question with the EEG monitoring, because they sent them for an at-home, and so you were talking about kind of like they look different than the epileptic seizures, but an EEG monitor, so if a child is hooked up to a monitor and a parent reports that they're having an episode during that time, would it, like how likely is it that it wouldn't catch anything at all?
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It's certainly true that for AHC and seizure disorders like epilepsy, it can be very hard to capture seizure activity during a doctor's appointment because episodes are unpredictable. And this is why doctors rely so much on parent reports. One of the challenges of MBP investigations is that it can be very difficult to disprove a clinical diagnosis.
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As Detective Mike Weber always says about these investigations, you never ask doctors if something is possible, because with medicine, almost anything is possible. It's a constantly evolving science.
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So though these investigations are lengthy and work-intensive, at some point, the picture becomes pretty clear, as Dr. Zupontz recalls from the 10 or so Munchausen cases that she's come across in her career.
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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By May of 2021, after Sophie had been charged and bailed out by her parents, her daughter C, who is now in the custody of her grandmother and aunt, along with her sister M, was seeing dramatic improvements in her health and abilities, and she was back in school several days a week. Meanwhile, Detective O'Rourke was still putting together the immense medical puzzle that had been laid on her desk.
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The notes and internal meetings about C at Seattle Children's date all the way back to 2019, with the police investigation starting in 2021. Even before making a report to the Department of Children and Families, hospitals do their own work of due diligence.
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These cases are often portrayed by perpetrators and the media who give them megaphones as a hospital rushing to judgment, making it all about a parent whose child has a condition that the hospital just doesn't understand. But in reality, especially in a large hospital such as Seattle Children's, the doctors often have extensive documentation before they report medical child abuse.
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This abuse is very different than a child coming to a hospital with a suspicious broken bone because it is a pattern. There may be a single alarming incident that's captured on video, as with my sister's case, but the devil is always in the details.
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We spoke to Dr. Jill Glick from the University of Chicago to give us some insight into evaluating this abuse so that we could see what things might have looked like behind the scenes at Seattle Children's when they started tracking this case in 2019.
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Just a note that the University of Chicago Medical System uses the abbreviation CAPS, or Child Advocacy and Protective Services, and you'll hear Dr. Glick reference this acronym. Talk us through the process for a hospital of investigating a medical child abuse case and then maybe kind of how that is different from some of these other injuries.
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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reporting that a swallow study came back with severe findings when they were mild, saying that the doctors at Seattle Children's had, quote, given her the impression that she needed a G-tube when they'd clearly told her otherwise, and reporting a diagnosis of cerebral palsy and significant brain damage, despite the MRI coming back with only a mild finding.
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Then there was the saga that started in July of 2020 when Sophie brought C to a doctor saying that she was concerned that her six-year-old might be experiencing early puberty. Here is Sophie explaining this piece to Detective O'Rourke.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
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It was just a million small things about her baby's development and especially his eating issues. After being diagnosed failure to thrive, he'd had a nasal gastric tube inserted to help with his feeding. And this tube is in most of the pictures I have of him. And then Megan started talking about him needing a G-tube, which would require a surgery.
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When C arrived at the doctor, she was in a wheelchair, despite Sophie having been told by physicians that this was both unnecessary and harmful. In this appointment, Sophie also described C as a, quote, very handicapped child. Upon examination, there were some modest clinical findings, the endocrinologist told police, but these were discordant with further lab testing.
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While doctors were in the process of trying to get to the bottom of this precocious puberty question, they requested an MRI, and Sophie told them something shocking. That C had gone into cardiac arrest while undergoing an MRI at Duke. The Seattle doctor was alarmed and told Sophie she needed to see the chart notes of that visit before proceeding with the scan.
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Sophie then changed her story, saying actually it had been a different child at Duke who this had happened to. When asked about this, Dr. McCotty from Duke told the police he was surprised that Sophie had said this, as this was not a published case and that this patient fortunately completely recovered.
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This incident had happened two years earlier at Duke, and they'd added some additional precautions to their protocols around MRIs because of it. Sophie continued to pursue a surgical hormone implant for C against the doctor's advice and told numerous people that C was in, quote, full-blown puberty and that the likely cause was a brain tumor.
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This is not behavior that can be explained away as anxiety or a parent advocating for their child in a complicated healthcare system. There are legitimate challenges with getting the correct diagnosis for a rare condition like age C, but this odyssey does not include lying to doctors.
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Dr. McCotty declined our request for an interview, but we do have extensive notes from his conversations with the police detectives.
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He told Detective O'Rourke that he'd only seen C three times and was not in the position of treating the child who lived on the other side of the country, but that his role was to advise the doctors at Seattle Children's who were treating her, and that he would defer to them on making the differential between AHC and Munchausen.
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Seattle Children's and Duke had been in contact during treatment, and in fact, McCotty knew C's neurosurgeon, Dr. Wainwright, pretty well. Dr. Wainwright had trained at Duke, and McCotty said that he'd once hoped they'd get a chance to work together. McCotty described him as an excellent neurologist.
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Dr. Makati confirmed that he'd never himself witnessed an episode and that the only way to definitively say whether an episode is AHC or not is to have providers witness and evaluate it. This is why they sometimes attempt to trigger an episode when a child is in the hospital, which Sophie describes in her police interview as though it's cruel.
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Also worth noting that Sophie reported episodes as long as 32 days, but she never brought C to the hospital during one of these alleged episodes. Most of the people the police spoke to reported never seeing anything like an episode of AHC, and those who did, such as Sophie's parents, didn't really describe anything consistent with what an AHC episode actually looks like.
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But people did report seeing something. either behavioral issues, such as what Art described, or just C seeming very subdued and very out of it. As one of C's hippotherapy, as a reminder, that's with horses, not hippos, providers told the police.
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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And there was one church friend who witnessed some of C's gastrointestinal issues.
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Sophie also took frequent videos of C when she was quote in episode and shared them with doctors, teachers, as well as posting them on YouTube in order to, by her explanation, raise awareness about age C. Here's how one of C's speech pathologists describes watching those videos.
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Dr. McCotty confirmed that he couldn't conclude anything from the videos that Sophie had shared with the team. And Dr. Wester, who heads up Seattle's scan team, reports that the videos recorded random behaviors and crying that were not demonstrative of anything. By all appearances, Seattle Children's and Duke were very much on the same page.
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But Sophie often told Seattle Children's that a particular recommendation was coming from Duke. such as in an email Sophie drafted to Dr. Wainwright in March of 2020, telling him that Dr. McCotty said they needed to put C on a higher dose of baclofen, which was one of the medications being used to treat her purported episodes.
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As far as the precocious puberty question and the findings that didn't quite match up, the charging documents provide one possible explanation, that C was being given birth control pills, which contain estrogen and which would account for the clinical findings in the initial appointments that did not match up with the lab workup.
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Presenting side effects of a medication as symptoms is a common thread in these cases, so it makes sense that doctors and the police dug into this. And then there was this disquieting detail from the police interview with Sophie's next-door neighbor in which she describes picking up some prescriptions for C&M.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. When we last left off, we were talking to Dr. Zupontz about age C, to better understand this rare condition that C had been diagnosed with. If this diagnosis was legitimate, could it explain all of these other symptoms that Sophie had described?
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Just to clarify this, because the names are bleeped out, this neighbor picked up a G-tube medication that was labeled for M, who does not have a G-tube. The neighbor was so alarmed that she took photos of the prescription bottles.
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When she was separated from Sophie and admitted to the hospital for observation in March of 2021, C was on a number of medications for her supposed symptoms. This list, along with a list of medications found in the home when police searched it, could give us some insight into the, quote, symptoms other people saw.
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I also asked Dr. Becks about the prescription for baclofen.
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Specifically, the severe and ongoing gastrointestinal issues that had required C to undergo two invasive surgeries. Is that another thing that might sort of get worse over time as they're having more episodes and they might have like kind of ongoing problems with gastrointestinal stuff?
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The most common symptom people reported seeing, if any at all, was C being really out of it. So the fact that there were multiple highly sedating medications in the house is notable. Becks also mentioned that the side effects of one of these medications is difficulty swallowing, which Sophie constantly reported in C despite a series of swallow tests that showed either mild or no difficulty.
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Sophie's explanation for this was that C could simply perform being able to swallow in a hospital setting. Even the manner in which these medications were used sounded off to Bex, such as what C herself told the police about how her mom treated her during an episode. During the police investigation, forensic interviewers spoke to C about her episodes, and what she told them is shocking.
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I am obviously not qualified to say whether or not C has AHC. The person who is best positioned to make this call is Dr. Wainwright, the neurologist from Seattle Children's who Dr. McCotty himself said he would defer to on the question of whether this was an AHC case or a Munchausen case. This is from Dr. Wainwright's sworn affidavit. Quote, C. Hartman is a patient of mine since October 2019.
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At that time, she had been diagnosed with alternating hemiplegia of childhood. C had genetic testing which had not identified a variant in the gene associated with this disorder, and the diagnosis was therefore made on clinical grounds, including the reports of symptoms made by her mother.
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. Throughout the first year of my nephew's life, things fell increasingly off with my sister.
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Over the course of her treatment, she had hospital admissions, inpatient and outpatient EEG studies, and brain MRIs. These studies were normal or showed only mild abnormalities. These findings were not consistent with the severity of the clinical symptoms reported by her mother.
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In addition, her neurologic examination and symptoms during hospitalizations in 2019, 2020, and 2021 did not reveal these symptoms. I have concluded that C does not have AHC, nor does she have the severe and recurrent neurological symptoms reported to the medical teams. Instead, she has a mild static encephalopathy, which does not require the medications she was previously treated with.
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nor does she require the other medical devices including wheelchair, orthotics, and feeding tube. Given my role as the creator of a podcast about Munchausen by proxy, I think sometimes people assume that I go into a given case looking only for evidence of abuse. But what I actually go in looking for is the truth.
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And in that search, I look for any other possible explanation that could make any kind of sense. And after months of researching this case, I simply cannot find one. If C really has AHC, it would be in defiance of all known science on the disorder and truly of reality itself.
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It would appear that the truth was what Seattle Children's observed at the end of C's 16-day hospitalization following her separation from Sophie, that she was a completely normal six-year-old girl. On March 18, 2021, the day after C and M were placed in protective custody, Detective O'Rourke got a call from an attorney named Adam Shapiro, who was representing Sophie Hartman.
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He said he was just digging into this case, but that he'd seen a number of these medical cases. In fact, he'd had one the year before, and it had even involved some of these same doctors. It had all turned out to be garbage, he said. In that case, Shapiro, an experienced family-independency attorney, had gotten the children returned to the mom and no criminal charges had ever been filed.
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This case had also been covered on the local news.
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Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact-checking by Erin Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
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If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
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But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. so soon. I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
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Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
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And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
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I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
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So if it was, as Sophie reported, that C was having such severe gastrointestinal symptoms that she required a G-tube and a succostomy tube, this would put her in the slim minority, 10%, of an already extremely rare disorder. And she's already in the minority of AHC patients being one of the 20% that doesn't have the gene mutation.
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Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
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These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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And then there were the details that Sophie reported about her episodes. Something caught my eye in the literature that it was saying there can be this huge difference in duration of time for an episode. So you said a few minutes to 14 days. And again, I won't ask you overly much to sort of speculate on what's about this case in particular.
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But there was a parent report of paralysis lasting 32 days. Have you ever heard of something that long?
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It was around this time that my mother went to the gastroenterologist with Megan and heard him say that he didn't think my nephew needed it yet. And this was all happening against the backdrop of a long history of her deceptions. My sister's own questionable surgeries, her faked twin pregnancy, and the dramatic loss of those babies that never were.
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Yeah. And I mean, it seems to me that if an episode was going on that long, that there would be a hospitalization during that period.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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There is a range of symptoms and severity with AHC, as with many things, but consistently, Sophie is reporting severe, frequent, and long-lasting episodes. And in such a case, an AHC patient would experience significant cognitive decline. And according to the teachers and care providers the police spoke to, C had occasional issues but was more or less developmentally on track with her peers.
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So the episodes Sophie is reporting are twice as long as any ever discovered in AHC research, meaning this would be one of the most severe cases of AHC ever documented. The reason pediatricians take parent reports so seriously is that they recognize that we usually know our kids best and are much more in touch with what's normal for them and what isn't.
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Was it plausible that Sophie was the only person attuned enough to her daughter to understand what was going on with her? With this disease in particular and sort of the presentation of it, is it plausible that given that there were other people around this child pretty frequently, that no one else would see this child have an episode?
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I remember going with her to an ultrasound when she was pregnant with my nephew and seeing the image of the baby with my own eyes and still feeling unsure if he was real. This makes me realize how much I already knew about the true her. How hard I was working to hide it from myself. But pushing him towards a surgery he didn't need crossed a line.
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No one disputes that a parent's perspective on their child is important, but Dr. Zupont's talks about getting other people who are around the child in the loop as well. And this piece is equally important in a medical child abuse investigation. Detective O'Rourke and her colleagues from Renton PD did one of the most thorough investigations I have ever seen in a medical child abuse case.
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They spoke to dozens of people, neighbors, friends, people from Em's gym, multiple schools that she attended, therapists, church members, people from the writing program, doctors, and family members. Sophie was nearly always with the girls, though reportedly Em would sometimes stay with friends while Sophie took C to doctor's appointments.
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And when the girls were a little bit older, she would sometimes leave them at the gym under the supervision of one of the coaches. Now, no one other than the doctors in this case who treated C are qualified to determine whether or not she truly has age C.
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But given that Sophie had proven to be an unreliable narrator of her daughter's health, it was important for the police to talk to as many people who'd had eyes on the girls as possible to see if Sophie's reports matched up with, well, reality.
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In my research, I watched a short documentary about children with AHC called Human Time Bombs in order to better understand the lives of families coping with this condition. They show some video footage of kids having AHC episodes, and it's very difficult to watch. You can see their whole bodies stiffen, their eye movements become erratic, and some of them are just howling in pain.
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My parents met with their family doctor and she gave them the words for the pattern we'd been seeing. Munchausen by proxy. I remember them sitting down to tell me that evening, and I thought, our family is over. She'll never forgive us because we knew we had to intervene. There never seemed, at least the three of us, to be another option. I only wish that every family saw it this way.
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It's heartbreaking, and as Dr. Zupont said, it's not subtle. The majority of people who were asked said they had never witnessed an episode firsthand. Those who did report witnessing something went on to describe something that does not actually sound like an AHC episode, such as these reports from Sophie's parents.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And, you know, I was talking to actually a psychologist colleague about this yesterday about why it seems like, you know, some of the offenders that we deal with are telling the truth when they're not, right? Where it just doesn't necessarily read like they're lying when they are lying.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And she talked about how, you know, people in this sort of area, and I think we can talk about sort of like the mental health aspects of this with Susan Smith, but that like, if you are, you know, have these types of personality disorders that cause people to do these things. that you're much, much more adept at compartmentalization, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I sort of like, I think that was just what was in my mind watching her. I'm like, I think it's just such a trip to sort of watch someone making this appeal and making this big story up about, you know, a Black man carjacking her when she knows the truth.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah. And like the rationalization and justification of like, oh, I'll find a way to like, you know, make good on all this. And I'm not actually screwing over these people. And I'm just, you know, whatever, whatever it is, he was sort of telling himself about what he was doing. Right. Yeah. So Susan Smith ends up submitting a handwritten confession that she had killed these two boys and
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
This story changes as she goes. So initially, she said that this was an attempted murder-suicide where she had meant to go into the car and drive into the lake with the two boys because she was suicidal, because she had been having an affair with Her boss's son at the, I believe, factory where she worked and that he had broken up with her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And so her justification for this was that she wanted to kill herself and she didn't want her boys to grow up without a mom. So she decided to take them with her. And this was debunked once they found the car and did the sort of forensics on how long it would have taken.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And this is a really heartbreaking detail that she had put the car in neutral and it had rolled down the hill with a boy strapped into their car seats in the back. And that would have taken like a full, because it was not like speeding into the lake, that it would have taken a full six minutes for the car to sink in.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And so I think that is that definitely paints a picture of someone who is not, you know, who did not make any attempt to save the children or did not probably jump out of the car at the last minute. And also, I think a detail that really struck me was that she had photo albums and her wedding dress in the car with them. So it was really interesting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
seemed like this sort of symbolic sending her old life into the lake move. And then it was revealed that the reason that her lover that she was having an affair with had broken things off was because he didn't want children. And, yeah, I mean, like, how did these details of what actually happened in this case kind of land on you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Well, hello, Celicia. Thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited to talk about this case with you today. To start off with, can you tell us about your show, Truer Crime?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, and I mean, it definitely strikes me as like, and not delusional in the sense that she's suffering from like actual delusions or psychosis, but sort of a, yeah, like disordered way of thinking, right? Where it's just like, oh, well, yeah, let me solve the problem by getting rid of my children and getting rid of my old life. And then this person will want me back. And I think, yeah,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
One of the things I think that really worked against any defense about mental health or anything about it being not premeditated was that she had told family members that she had sort of fantasized about what if she hadn't had kids so young. And so I think there was some evidence that she had been sort of felt as though she was trapped in that situation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So she's arrested and the car is pulled out of the lake. Again, just so... shattering for the father, shattering for the family members, and really for the whole community. Because I think especially when there was this massive manhunt and massive amount of resources dedicated to finding these boys.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So you can imagine that people really felt a sense of betrayal when they found out who had been responsible for it. And then there's this additional element of her blaming a fictional black perpetrator and that this had really caused some tension and some fear within the community of are they going to find someone that fits that sort of
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
general description and hold them accountable for it um and you know when there was like no such person even sort of on the scene um and yeah i mean that really like watching some of those interviews with the community members and and how that had affected them um yeah that that just really struck me and of course this goes back to some like very very age-old um
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
biases and very, very dark history of white women accusing Black men of crimes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, absolutely. I just sort of think about how badly this case could have gone if they had acted on those tips. I mean, I don't think that's implausible. I mean, I think her story didn't make a lot of sense. But I know that the way that a lot of times law enforcement looks at especially white, but like young female offenders is,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
They very easily, I think, could have sort of looked at her and been like, well, this lady would never kill her children. So let's keep looking for, you know, the fictional perpetrator and could have pinned it on someone.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I'm a mom on the go in my 40s. I'm writing books. I'm making this show. I'm going down internet rabbit holes. And given the fact that mornings with a six and a two-year-old are a complete opera of chaos, I do not have a lot of time to think about what to wear. I want things to be simple and I want them to be really nice. which is why at least half of my wardrobe these days is from Quince.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Real talk, I love this brand so much, and I know so many people who are fans. My friend April loves this brand. My producer Mariah loves it. My husband, my mom, they're all super into Quince. And you can pretty much build a complete wardrobe from Quince with their luxury essentials at affordable prices.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash believe to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash believe. We'll include that information at the link in our show notes. And remember that shopping with our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So stay fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lume. So she's arrested and, you know, this goes to trial. Susan Smith's main defense, you know, at this point, there's no question of who did what. Right. It's it's pretty clear cut. So her main defense is her mental health. And there becomes a lot of focus on her. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
g, g, g, g, g, g, g, g, g, g, g, g, Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So, yeah. So this was in February of 1995. So this is in the lead up to her trial. Susan Smith's defense attorneys hired a team of psychiatrists led by a guy called Seymour Halleck to conduct a psychiatric evaluation of her. So she was interviewed by him for 15 hours over the course of four sessions. This is according to WYFF News 4, who was the local station in Union that covered this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And the opinion given by that psychiatrist was that Susan Smith did not suffer from a deep depression and he diagnosed her as having a dependent personality disorder. The quote from him they include here is she constantly needs affection and becomes terrified she will be left alone. And he found that Susan Smith was only depressed when she was alone.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So it sounds like the prosecution also ordered a psychiatric evaluation, but it doesn't say anything about their results. But I think the fact that the defense did not find her to be suffering from major depressive disorder is telling, right, because they were sort of the team that was hired to – I'd imagine the goal there was to give some kind of –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Justification for her actions, some kind of defense. I mean, that was really all they had to work with was her mental health. I don't know anything about a dependent personality disorder. It's also possible that it's called something different because this was, you know, 30 years ago. But but yeah, I mean, I think that really sort of does away with a mental health problem.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
reasoning that would lessen her culpability. Because it's worth saying, you know, and this is something we talk about on the show, that parents do harm their children sometimes because they are having a psychotic episode. or because they are suffering from delusions or in the midst of something like a postpartum psychosis. Those are things that happen.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I remember after having both of my kids, everywhere you go and every checkup, they ask you about your mental state and they really tell you to keep an eye on that. Now, with that said, right, Do we as a culture provide any institutional support for any of that? No. And I think that's a huge problem, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Because people can, under duress, under stress, under the influence, under substance abuse, because of extreme stress due to poverty, these are all reasons that people harm their children that can be mitigated, that can be prevented. I'm not totally sure what the preventative measure is. Could have been taken for someone like Susan Smith. And it's an interesting, like, open question.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Was she always going to do this? Was she always going to go on to commit an act of violence? Or was there something about this specific set of circumstances where there could have been some kind of intervention? But it's hard to know what that might have looked like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, well, you know, your show is excellent. I love it. And I love the way that you cover cases. And, you know, I have a similar relationship to the genre, right? I got into it because of a personal experience and because I could not find the kind of content around that, the kind of information around that that I wanted and that would have been helpful to me when I was going through it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
The big question, I think, in this in this case was, was she going to be given the death penalty? So this is in July 26th of 1995. Susan is found guilty. And then they go on to, you know, so there's there's two phases of a trial like this. There's the guilt innocence phase. And then that same jury then weighs in on the sentencing. And so then she had the sentencing part of the trial done.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So she's convicted of murdering both of the boys. And I think the prosecution was hoping to get like a lesser like manslaughter charge, which feels totally inappropriate in this case to me. But she was convicted of murder. And under the South Carolina law at the time, she would be eligible for parole every two years after serving 30 years in prison.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
um how do we feel about this sentence and i i always have like i have quite complicated feelings about prison as a whole so i think it can be very hard for me to decide how how i feel about someone's prison sentence but yeah like how how do you think like what do you think about about this
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I love doing these crossover episodes with other shows. So let me know if there are other shows or creators that you think we should talk to. If you want to get in touch with us about that or anything else, give us a shout at hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Or you can leave us a comment on Spotify. We also appreciate ratings and reviews of the show on Apple Podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So yeah, so this story that we're gonna talk about today, we had gotten together and kind of brainstormed what is a good true or crime, nobody should believe me crossover. And I think this one really fits the bill because I think it has just the elements that both of our shows are kind of focused on. So I'm just going to do a quick recap of this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, I agree with you. And also because I think there's such a variety of reasons that people might end up committing even a heinous crime, right? Even a murder. Because, you know, it's very dependent on the circumstances. And so I think you do have to look at sort of the individual offender and how dangerous they might be. So...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
In 2024, so just last year, she came up for her first parole hearing. And, you know, basically she, you know, her argument was that she's done her time, that she is deeply remorseful for what she did and that she made a huge mistake and that she you know, never intended to harm her children and that she loved her children more than anything.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
You know, I have to say, like, when I think about what sort of accountability could look like in a case like this, right, of someone harming, you know, grievously harming or killing their children. The thing that rankles me the most is when people say how much they love their children and how much they never meant to hurt their children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And this really took me back watching her in this interview to when I interviewed Hope Ybarra, which was the perpetrator whose case we covered in the first season of the show. You know, she did 10 years in prison, fortunately, because of the interventions of the family members, the hospital, law enforcement, etc., Her child survived and is doing great, thriving.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
But she certainly put her child's life at risk and certainly could have killed her. And she, you know, in this interview with me was tearful and crying and saying how much she loved her children, saying how much... She never meant to hurt them and et cetera.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I really think it really – there's something about that emphasis on how much they love their children, which Susan Smith kind of takes a similar tack, that really rubs me the wrong way because – That leads me to believe that they don't get it, that they're not being accountable. Right. Because that's not love. That is completely the opposite.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
You know, we talk a lot about, yeah, like what accountability would look like. Right. Be like, I wasn't thinking of my children when I was doing this. I was acting selfishly and it was wrong. And I didn't I wasn't empathizing with my children. I wasn't feeling what I should have been feeling towards them. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
not sort of putting it under all these layers of like trying to appeal to people's idea of what a mother should be. Um, like that part of her was obviously not active. And so just sort of hear about her talk about how much she loved her children. I'm like, no, but she did not. You, you,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
committed this horrible, you know, murder, and then you lied about it, you put other people at the community at risk, you, you know, put the, you know, law enforcement in a situation where they were dedicating all of these resources that are then taking away from other people who need those resources. And so that is like a really a crime against the community as well.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So we're going to talk about the Susan Smith case. So this is a case from the mid 90s. A woman called it happens in Union County in South Carolina. So a woman named Susan Smith married to a man named David Smith. They got married quite young when Susan Smith was 19. She gave birth to her first son, Michael, and then two years later had her second son, Alex. And then on October 25th, 1994,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And she just clearly didn't, like, have a grasp on any of those things. And she sort of – it felt very much like she was saying what she thought she should say, just like sort of a script, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah. And I really think about, you know, and David Smith, her, you know, former husband, who's the father of those boys, did did a couple of interviews around this. And he's generally it's my understanding that he's generally been pretty reticent to talk to media. This is obviously not a sort of fame that he wanted. And so he did give some interviews around this time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
He did testify at her parole hearing and against her being paroled. And I just think about like, you know, with the accountability piece, right, because there's obviously nothing that she can do or say that will make this go away. The harm has been caused. The pain is real. That will last for about, you know, throughout all of the lives of the people who cared about these boys.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And it's just a huge tragedy. Right. But I do think and I wonder, like, if it's frustrating for me to hear her talk about how much she loved her kids, I can't imagine what that's like for their father to hear her say that. Because it's so it's so false and like that I do think for, you know, for people who are harmed by who are victimized by violence. Um, by abusers, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And who are, and I think he's a, you know, David is a victim of Susan. Um, like, just to even have them acknowledge the truth, like, can provide a great deal of relief to be able to kind of move forward. You know, not that you're going to necessarily... forgive them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Although I think that's kind of up to the person, you know, the person doing it, but like just to have her never take accountability and never just like acknowledge like, yeah, I did a selfish thing for selfish reasons. There's no excuse. Like, and I was not acting out of love.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I was, this was, you know, my boys deserved a mother that loved them and it wasn't me, you know, like just to really just say the thing. And I don't expect that he's probably ever going to get that. And So in November of 2024, she was unanimously denied parole, and her ex-husband, David Smith, testified, and there were 14 other witnesses that came forward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, and I think this is – you know, I think the parole thing, I think it's really good that that exists because, again, you can't assume that the system gets it right, right? And there are people that are – either serving time for crimes they didn't commit or serving too much time for crimes that, you know, they did commit.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I think there's a lot of reasons that that balance is in play and it should be there. But it's also kind of heartbreaking to think about the family having to like now relive this every two years for the rest of her life.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
her children disappeared. And Susan Smith reported that she had been carjacked at night by a black man wearing a toboggan hat with a gun. And she told this story that he had carjacked her and then forced her out of the car and driven off with her two children strapped into their car seats in the back of the car.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, yeah. And again, it's like, I don't really have a solution. Like, what sort of punishment does someone deserve, right? Like, what do they deserve to sort of pay for their crime? Is that even possible in a case like this? Is there any sort of restitution that can be made in a case like this? And then how do you keep society safe from someone who is capable of this kind of thing?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I was very struck. I do think in her defense, not me making her defense, her defense's strategy during her trial was to soften her, was to lean into this image of what we think a mother is. And, you know, she's very young at the time. She's in her early 20s. And they really appealed to the jury for sympathy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I was really struck by this statement about Susan Smith that, you know, that her defense team made in the closing arguments. Susan Smith has never shown anything but, quote, unconditional love for her children. Right. And her attorney, Clark, claimed it was not murder as there was no malice in Susan Smith's actions and added, this is not a case about evil, but a case about sadness and despair.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I've got a really fascinating Case Files episode for you today. This is a crossover with my friend, Silesia Stanton, creator of the excellent podcast, Truer Crime, which we will be sharing an episode of in the feed tomorrow. Today, Silesia and I are talking about the Susan Smith case, which touches on a bunch of themes that both of our shows cover.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Odd. Very odd thing to say. Yeah. And I just thought that is such an extraordinary framing to put on this case.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Right. Yeah. I mean, I that that seems bananas that you would say there was no malice in her actions. And I think what they were leaning into was like that we could sort of see it as, oh, she was having a break with reality of some kind. But of course, there's no evidence of that. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And so, you know, there's another statement from her attorney that struck me where, you know, yeah, he said her situation was about the dangers of untreated mental health and noted that because she had no criminal history before her conviction, that made her a low risk to the public. And I was like, well, you know, it's not like this was her first offense and she, you know, robbed a liquor store.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So investigators who were looking into this case, the sheriff's office in Union County, reportedly had some doubts about her story from the beginning. So yeah, so for the first week or so of this case, There was a ton of media attention. There was local, there was national, and there was this gigantic manhunt for the alleged kidnapper and this gigantic search for these two little boys. And
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
It's, you know, she went from zero to a million. So I don't I don't know that that's really like previous criminal history just doesn't really matter. matter in this case, I don't think. And there was a quote from the prosecutor in the AP coverage of this case that I think really kind of hit the nail on the head when they were arguing for the death penalty.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And again, I don't support the death penalty, so I don't sort of care that she didn't get it. But I think this was a really interesting take and said, I just felt strongly that had a Black man with the toboggan hat committed the crime, people would expect the death penalty. if David Smith had committed the crime, people would have expected the death penalty. And I think that's right. Yeah.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, absolutely. One thing I was thinking about in sort of responses to that quote from Pope is like, if this had been a black male carjacker and he some harm had come to the children or he had killed the children, um, Which in many ways, to me, that is a less heinous crime than killing your own children. I mean, heinous either way, but it's sort of, I think it's sort of less disturbing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I think a mother killing their own children is probably the most disturbing thing that people can sort of come up with. But nonetheless, if it had been a black male offender that had committed this crime, we would not be having a conversation about his mental health.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, no, I mean, it definitely cuts both ways with women in particular. And it is something where like, yeah, if someone is having a genuine psychotic episode or genuinely suffering from delusional disorder, it is complicated. Well, thank you so much, Slesia, for doing this with me. I think this was such a fascinating, thoughtful discussion.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I really urge everyone to check out your show, Truer Crime, forever. more of these kind of insightful takes on cases. And now you have me wanting to go back and listen to your back catalog as well. So yeah, thank you so much for doing this with me.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
The couple, Susan and David Smith, did a bunch of interviews. They did a morning show interview where they were pleading with the kidnapper to return their children. Now, Slicia, did you get a chance to watch any of that video of Susan and David Smith? No.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, so really heartbreaking story, obvious, like easy to see why this really caught attention. And yeah, I think as a parent, like this is just your worst fear, right? Someone disappearing with your kids, anything happening to your kids.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So I think anybody who's a parent, I mean, I think anybody who's a human being with a heart, but also like in particular parents, this just like gets such a visceral fear that like you can see why this had such a big reaction, right?
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So as this is going on, as this massive manhunt is going on, investigators are talking to both of the parents and, you know, like, unfortunately, statistically, if something bad happens to children, it is most likely to be their parents or a family member. The whole stranger danger thing is, you know, which I don't know how old you are, but I was born in the early in the early 80s.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And of course, if you want even more, nobody should believe me. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Patreon and get two bonus episodes a month. Now with that, here's the show. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So it's like that was kind of like peak like 80s and 90s was like stranger danger, like someone's going to drive up in a van and snatch you. So I think this was still like this was probably still within that cultural context of like a lot of attention to how dangerous strangers could be to children and not a lot of attention to how dangerous parents could be to children.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, so basically, you know, as this as these like pleas to the media are happening and she's doing, you know, Susan Smith does a number of interviews. The investigators are looking closely at the parents, right, to see if they know anything about what happened. And Susan Smith's story about the carjacking just basically completely falls apart. There's a ton of holes in it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
The friend that she said she was going to visit wasn't actually home. home that night. The car was nowhere to be found in this gigantic search. There was an issue with the traffic light where she said she was stopped at a traffic light when the carjacker approached her and got in the car and put a gun to her side.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
but there would not have been a red light unless there were any other cars at the intersection then she claimed she was at a different intersection and there was actually a patrol car that had been nearby that intersection so just nothing really added up and they gave her a lie detector test and she had trouble answering the question do you know where your boys are so lie detector tests like from my understanding of you know having having talked to law enforcement about them
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Sort of tricky. They're not actually admissible in court, but obviously, along with the holes in her story and the fact that they could find no evidence of the car, of this alleged carjacker, really, you know, led them to believe that she was lying. And sure enough, under pressure, she confesses to driving her two sons into a lake. Um, so obviously so horrific.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I have to say like, and it's funny, I'm, I'm now like interested in like what you sort of observed about her when she was doing those interviews in that interim time. Right. And it's, it's hard because knowing the outcome, I think you can kind of project. onto that person of, like, oh, this seems really off. Like, I don't know if that would seem off to me if I didn't know that.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
But she did seem, like, next to her husband in particular. Like, her husband looks genuinely shattered. And... Like Susan just looks kind of blank. And then when she's giving an interview by herself to some TV cameras, she's almost kind of like half smiling. And I wouldn't want to read too much into just that. Right.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Because I think people do act weird when they are in states of shock, when they are experiencing grief. Like, I think you can't it's kind of like it reminds me of that whole like Amanda Knox case, you know, where people were like, well, she did a cartwheel and it was like made this big thing. And, you know, she was acting like she was smooching her boyfriend or whatever.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And it's like, well, yeah, people like act weird under stress. That that alone is not evidence of anything. But I have to say, like looking at her and just kind of like looking at her eyes and looking at her facial expressions. She did seem very flat to me in those interviews.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, and I certainly agree with you that it's not something you would want to read too much into because I think it can only tell you so much. And I also think that it's really interesting to look at how the media treats female suspects or female offenders. And then especially if that woman is a mom, because I know this as a mom in the world, you know, incredibly judgmental of moms, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And how they handle everything. And so you really get this like, you know, either they're like sort of saint or sinner thing, right? Yeah. It's like, you wouldn't want to parse too much just based on facial expression or just seems like she's off, you know, like I would be off too if I had, if my children were missing, like, I don't know what, I don't know how I would read on camera, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I think why it intrigued me is because I think a lot about liars and how they compartmentalize because the offenders that I cover, and I mean, I think this is true across like a lot of types of offenders, but, you know, it is that deception piece, right? Of like how you can go on camera and say those things while simultaneously knowing that The reality, right?
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Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
But right when the semester began picking up steam, Kelsey started receiving emails from Morgan's family.
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Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
They thought Kelsey brainwashed their daughter, and they wanted her to leave Morgan alone.
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But Morgan was fixated. All she wanted to do was talk about her parents with Kelsey.
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Between the stress of school and the drama with Morgan's parents, Kelsey's connection with Morgan was fading.
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The next day, Kelsey came home from school to find Morgan on their couch in tears. There was something she needed to tell Kelsey.
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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If you've listened to our recent season five mailbag episode, you will know that we ended up doing an impromptu ad for Lume because that is how much not only I, but the whole Nobody Should Believe Me team loves this product. And most of the team actually lives in Texas, so you know their deodorant is working extra hard.
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So stay fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lumi. I'm a mom on the go in my 40s. I'm writing books. I'm making this show. I'm going down internet rabbit holes. And given the fact that mornings with a six and a two-year-old are a complete opera of chaos, I do not have a lot of time to think about what to wear.
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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Just when Kelsey thought her relationship with Morgan was over, Morgan came to her with devastating news. She had bone cancer and she was dying. Kelsey was no stranger to cancer. She grew up watching her mother's breast cancer go into remission and return again. It was a horrible cycle. And to think another person she loved was going through this was hard to fathom.
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I don't think I got it at first. Morgan had known about the diagnosis all along, but she was just telling her now that the cancer had returned when she only had three months to live.
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So she sat down at the kitchen table with her laptop and a notepad to talk about what this would mean. Luckily, Morgan had some answers.
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During the day, Kelsey would attend class for her senior year of college, and Morgan would spend the day at the hospital.
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Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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Once again, she was juggling the weight of school and being there for Morgan.
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Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Christmas was a few weeks away. With Morgan's family out of the picture, they decided to celebrate with a family friend. an older woman named Joanne, who'd been a mentor to Morgan for years.
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It was a relief to talk with someone else who'd been involved with Morgan's care. She was a great resource. For Christmas, Morgan and Kelsey got each other something special. We got rings for our wedding. rings for their wedding. Morgan wanted to get married to Kelsey. It was a legal and financial decision.
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Morgan wanted the money to be donated to a library foundation. Kelsey was honored to help facilitate one of her final wishes.
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Kelsey felt a responsibility to make sure every day was a good day.
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Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
But the days were still difficult, especially as Morgan's health worsened.
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
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This only furthered Kelsey's resolve to support Morgan. She offered again to go to the hospital with her, to be by her side as she got treatment. Morgan said no. She didn't want to be a burden.
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After all, it was Kelsey's job that kept them afloat financially. As the weeks went on, the treatment seemed to be slowing the progression of her cancer, and Morgan hit the three-month mark.
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For the past three months, Kelsey had been bracing herself for the end, putting her all into caring for Morgan. It had been exhausting.
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In her last semester, she earned B's and C's, and her dreams of being valedictorian were dashed. Instead of giving the valedictorian speech, she applied to be an honorary student speaker at commencement.
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After she graduated, they finally had the time to plan a small wedding ceremony. At the time, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in their state, so they had to travel.
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Kelsey drove them to California, with Morgan asleep in the passenger seat. Along the way, they camped in national parks.
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes or And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
The day before the ceremony, they both sat down to write their vows.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
They delivered their vows and signed the papers in Sequoia National Park.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Being officially married was a relief. It was the final thing Morgan wanted to do before she passed away.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
In less than a year, Kelsey and Morgan went from being 21-year-olds at camp to being a married couple handling a terminal disease. Now they were committed to each other for however much time Morgan had left. Kelsey had been accepted into a master's program across the country. Neither of them expected Morgan to be alive for that next chapter.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
This is Kelsey's story of building her life around someone else's lies. Lies that consumed Kelsey's 20s, derailed her early career, and destroyed her sense of trust. For many years, she tried to hide from the deception she experienced. But now, she's ready to tell her story. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
They make incredibly compelling content in an extremely ethical and sensitive way, and we love that over here at Nobody Should Believe Me. So I'm not going to give any spoilers about today's episode, but needless to say, it is right up our collective alley. You can find a link to Betrayal Weekly in our show notes. And with that, please enjoy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
When she was a little girl, Kelsey's mom told her the origin story of their family unit. It was a survival story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Her mom and the three girls started anew in a small West Coast town, but the fear of her dad was always looming in the background.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Nearly everyone in their new town was Mormon. And their family wasn't. Their dad was Cuban. So Kelsey and her sisters stood out in a sea of blonde hair and blue eyes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Her mom's survival story had another chapter. For Kelsey's entire childhood, her mom battled breast cancer.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
As a kid, Kelsey didn't know the details. She just knew her mom was exhausted and was always going to the hospital.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and today I am so excited to share an episode of one of my favorite shows, Betrayal Weekly. I just did a big crossover special with host and producer Andrea Gunning, Andrea's of True Crime Unite, and I have been a guest on Betrayal Weekly, and I just really admire this team so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Over the summer, she started going to Girl Scout Camp. There, she was allowed to just be a kid.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
The women who ran the camp were Kelsey's idols. She wanted to be just like them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
As she got older and entered high school, she started dreaming about broadening her horizons.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Kelsey and her high school girlfriend kept their relationship a secret. It was in the mid-2000s, and they were in a mostly Mormon community.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
So she set her sights on going to college in a place where she could be out and be herself. She was accepted to her first choice and made the leap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MBP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
But her family's finances took an unexpected turn. So after the first year, Kelsey had to transfer to a new university, one that she'd be paying for herself.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
She worked to put herself through college and she started working summers as a counselor at her old Girl Scout camp.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
By her third summer, she earned an executive leadership role at the camp, helping coordinate all the younger counselors.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Arriving at camp was a much-anticipated reunion, where she saw all of her closest friends again.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
One of the new counselors immediately caught Kelsey's attention. Her name was Morgan.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
She kept to herself and seemed guarded. I found her to be really mysterious.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Even though Morgan was only 20 years old, she'd been through a lot.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Morgan confided in her. Forming close bonds was a hallmark of the camp experience. They would be spending every day together for the next three months.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
At camp, there were no cell phones, no distractions from the outside world. And in this bubble, Kelsey knew she was developing feelings for Morgan. But she was in a leadership role. And then there was this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
So they continued on with a supercharged friendship. It was a connection Morgan needed. At home, she'd been struggling with an eating disorder.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
That kind of structure and vigilance around food was really triggering for Morgan. In fact, it was having an impact on her job performance.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
The idea of losing Morgan at camp was upsetting. Kelsey felt a responsibility to help as both a friend and a camp executive.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
About halfway through the summer, they took a day off together and drove to Kelsey's hometown.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Near the end of camp, Morgan's parents came to town. They were devout Mormons. And on that visit, Morgan wanted to come out to them. Kelsey drove her to meet them, to be there for emotional support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
There was so much at stake, and Morgan was now left on her own. They made their relationship official. And when camp ended, Morgan couldn't go home. So they decided to move in together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
It was Kelsey's last year of college. At first, living with Morgan was a novelty. Even mundane tasks were exciting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I love the eyeballs. My cover art is great.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Which, again, like, honestly, solid for an independent podcast launch, for sure. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
What is happening? Right, because just like for context, like for an indie podcast to do that, I mean, like just.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I have to say, and we should definitely talk about reviews and how to handle them because that's a whole other funny thing. But, like, it is, I mean, I think if you're getting, I mean, I think there are some shows where, like, just, like, the topic is not so controversial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But, like, I tend to think when I see podcast reviews, I mean, I take them with a sort of, like, oh, if someone has, like, a lot of five-star reviews and a lot of one-star reviews, I'm like, oh, this person's doing something interesting. You know, like, yeah. But, yeah, it's something.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
That's intense. That's an intense entry into that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
You're realizing how much of an outlier, how much crazy those numbers are.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Well, and it's also, it's a huge shift in format because we were both in that same position. You know, I kind of went into that position like after season two and then, you know, made with anybody who's listened to season three of my show, you know, we're following this case as it was unfolding in this trial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I was like, okay, I'm going to do an episode on it because there was this horrible Netflix film about the case that was just completely, you know, fictional. And so I was like, I'll do a round table episode of that. And then I was like, ended up deciding to cover this case in real time. And so then I ended up with a weekly show and that's why I was like doing so much work on it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But like, that's not a, like to take something from what was essentially, you know, we both made this first seasons of our show basically as limited series. So yeah, I mean, so we basically have these like eight episode limited series. That was what it was originally. And so then like, it's not like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
totally clear how to like even make a second season, let alone to go into a weekly format, which is like so intense. And I mean, when I was making the third season, it's like I felt like I worked in a newsroom.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I mean, it was totally different than, you know, kind of having like the first two seasons where I was like, because the first two seasons were mostly made before it ever launched, like it had this like very relaxed sort of timelines. And you can kind of take your time with it. And so it's just not like an
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And again, it's like the last thing you want to do is, and I remember this is sort of where at some point where I entered the chat, you know, it's like the last thing you want to do is take this show that really worked for people and found an audience and destroy it, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
You don't want to then just start like pumping something into the feed every week that's not, you know, that's not at all the same quality or that doesn't have those elements of what people loved about the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. We made the first seasons of our shows with the same production company. So that is how we met through your lovely, now producer, Syd, who I also worked with on some seasons of my show while I was there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So the minimum guarantee, just to explain, is like basically you get, you know, a monthly minimum. So network will front you that cost, but then it's usually tied to you hitting some kind of download number. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So that is actually how we met, not while we were both working with that studio, but afterwards. So how did you make the choice to go down that particular road of hiring a production company?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Like, what are the roles? Like, who do I trust? How do I find that person? Like, it's not, it's not this sort of like automatic plug and play thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
You know, if you happen to be a person who launched your podcast after, you know, 10 years of working at NPR, or in some like, you know, somewhere in the audio industry, well, yeah, then you can be like, oh, my friend is a producer, and I need this person, this person, this person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But if you're coming in just completely, you know, from another industry in the arts, or from not an industry in the arts, then you just don't even know who you need, or how to find them, to find good people.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It's a very strong bond. It is. The bond with host and producer, that is so integral to podcasting. And I think that's something that maybe is so behind the scenes. And I know I have a lot of people that talk to me about my show. I'm sure you have the same thing where they're like, oh, I love your show. I love the way you do this, you do that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I'm like, well, I will take credit for the parts of it that I'm reading. And obviously, I'm very, very much integrated into my show. But I'm also like, yeah, I have a great producer. And I have, you know, awesome sound engineers and they, you know, my producer does a lot of the sound design. It's like all of those elements, they come together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Get that LLC filed, baby, and off you go. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
We can both vouch for Sid. I have also worked with Sid. Phenomenal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But Cyd's also working on some projects of her own, which we will be very excited and you will hear about on both of our shows.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
There's a growing industry and it grows year over year by huge strides, which is so different for me coming from book publishing. Maybe you have one sector, it's like romance novels grow or audio books are growing, but you don't see the industry itself growing. With podcasting, it's just like every year it grows by these huge leaps.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And there is a lot of, I mean, and this is something, you know, this is the reason I started True Story Media with my partner, Ben Watson, who has his company Impressions FM. And he's, you know, we started working together this year and he's done a phenomenal job with
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
both with my ad sales, but also with just really helping me understand the industry, and marketing tactics, and data, and just all of these things that have been so helpful to me as a creator. And then I was hearing a lot of stories from friends who had just gotten into these horrible situations that were just exploitative.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I was like, well, this industry is nothing without the people creating the content. There should be much more respect for that end of things. And so I really, you know, worked with Ben to design a network that I would have said yes to, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Like that has like, you know, yeah, a sense of community, like a strong brand in terms of like what the shows are, what we are and what we're not, you know, really utilizing like cross promotion. Because that's the other thing for a podcast is like, you know, cross promoting with other podcasts is like the way to build an audience, right? I mean, that is like so effective.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Yeah, that's how, I mean, that's like the number one sort of tactic to be able to build a show. And so, you know, looking for ways to like offer that to creators and also, you know, and also for obviously for my own show. But yeah, I'm just looking at like, okay, giving the best revenue share possible. And, you know, and we have like a profit sharing model with True Story Media and, you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So making the contract term completely flexible, right? Come in when you want, leave when you want. We're not trying to hold anybody hostage. It's like we're helping with ad sales and we're helping you grow your show. So we will take a percentage of that. But like these other things where it's like if you get a movie deal or a book deal or whatever, we'll cheer you on.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But like we're not going to try and take it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It's sort of like, it seemed so, I mean, I think the way that a lot of this industry works to me is extremely short-sighted, right? Because it's like, okay, if you want, like, if you acquire...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
a show don't kill it like right then you won't get money from it like even just from like obviously from an ethical standpoint it's terrible but like uh you know you should never count on people's ethics to necessarily steer them even from a business perspective it seems short-sighted and stupid to like yeah why would you not want to do everything you can to grow the shows on your network so that they make more money you're getting a percentage of that like hello i
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Not a math whiz over here, but that's just business math. It's so silly. But you want to like, you know, I really wanted to like create an environment that could be sustainable. And especially with true crime, right? Especially people that are doing the stuff that I also admire as a listener who are really like talented.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Tackling difficult things and telling personal stories and helping other people tell their first person stories. It is really difficult, emotional wearing work. And you don't need to be like, it's so stressful to be trying to do that work. And also just worrying that like, you're not going to make enough money to keep yourself.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And it's like, listen, it is a challenge no matter what to make enough revenue to actually support your show, let alone to make it part of your income or your whole income. And there's only ever going to be some percentage of podcasts that are able to do that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But even within that, even if it's a hobbyist show or it's someone's part-time gig, just to be able to monetize that as well as it can be monetized, to be able to reach as big of an audience as it can, So that like creators can mostly focus on making their show and know it's in good hands. And, you know, like Ben Watson, who's my partner, like he is just so trustworthy. I, I, I heart Ben.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And he's. So knowledgeable, so accessible, which is not easy. Right. It's like a lot of a lot of times there's just so much opacity around the business stuff. And like there isn't that like, you know, ad sellers like, you know, tend to sort of stay in their lane. Like Ben is like not not he's in all the lanes. Right. He's just and I think that that's what makes him such a good partner.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And, you know, I was very impressed like when I was talking to when I was trying to find a new ad seller last year and talking to a couple of, you know, the same companies you were talking to. He just sent me the algorithm that he was using. He's like, here's how I came across that number. And then he's a big under promise over deliver guy too. So it's like we've by far beat those predictions.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Right, right. It's just the basics.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated. The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
What followed was a year of upheaval, violence, and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North. In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. There are some very bad actors in the industry for sure. And this is a very burgeoning industry. It is still figuring out what it is and what the industry standards are. So this isn't all nefarious, right? We're still figuring out what the industry standards are.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
it's the wild west it's so unlike you know with like with book publishing right it's like book publishing has been the same business model within traditional book publishing forever right and you can't do business in book publishing on the traditional side really without an agent and my agent i've been with my agent for almost 11 years she is amazing i would never do business in that industry without her like we do not have those same industry standards for podcasting right and so it's sort of like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
The agents, to me, question mark, still not sure. I talked to some and I was like, I don't like where I'm at right now with having built a show already. I don't know what I would hire you for right now. But like the two biggest companies that you're going to get most of your downloads from are Apple and Spotify. And so decisions that are made at those companies
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
have huge downstream effects like when Apple did its iOS update and that was like different you know that was that changed how um you know that changed how downloads were counted and like for us we lost I mean I don't know we went from like sort of 800,000 to like 600,000 so like we got a hit but like not massive there were shows that lost 90 percent of their numbers from that
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
update and like that is i mean that's like decimates your show yeah so like and then you know spotify like is you know adding new features all the time and like they now are transitioning into doing video for you know premium content subscribers which is a big industry story and there's this huge like sort of push to to to add video content and do you know for spotify for youtube and
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And that's how a lot of people are listening and discovering the podcast is on YouTube. And so it's like, there are all these things that really affect how everything else is done. And that to me actually is very exciting, but it also really means you have to know and be working with people who really understand the industry, which is what Ben brought in so much experience.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Well, yeah, like, subscribing to a show, obviously, like, that's a huge thing for us. But, like, also just sitting through our ads. Yeah. Just, like, letting the ads play. Like, I know commercials are, like, people get annoyed by them. And, like, I certainly try and be judicious about how many ads I play on my show. Some shows definitely overdo it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But, like, just know that, like, if you are sitting there listening to an ad, like, you are monetarily, you are meaningfully helping that show. Right. continue to be made, you know, sharing on social media, leaving reviews, like I think even mixed reviews like help, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
We'll talk about reviews, any reviews, you know, leaving comments on Spotify, like all that engagement, like it really does help. And like, there is like, I think sometimes we can get detached from like, how, you know, how expensive and time consuming it is to make the content that you love. Because as you know, if you're listening to a podcast in general, you're getting it for free.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Anything you can do to sort of like help that creator keep making
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Okay, so we touched on this a little bit earlier, but one of the things about having a podcast that really breaks out is the conversation is no longer one way because you start hearing from a lot of people. And we have very different perspectives. approaches to dealing with this. So I thought this would be really fun to talk about.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So tell us about the response to the show and how you have, especially with this being your first, you know, I've had books come out, which like none of them have had like this kind of, you know, like this kind of audience that the show has. So it was definitely like different experience, but I have had that experience of people critiquing my work and getting in touch with me about it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So what was that like for you? How did you hear from people? And what was the feedback and how did you interact with it?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Not in my business. That's a deal you're making. People can think whatever they want. They can say whatever they want. That's why you make it public and it's not a journal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Call your grandchild or look up a Google tutorial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
In this conversation today, we are talking about all the behind the scenes of podcasting and what it's like to make all of this work as an independent podcaster. I love talking shop with other podcasters, and I hope you enjoy. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Yeah, it's this idea that like, yeah, you have to have like the most dramatic or the worst. And it's like storytelling is an art because it doesn't mean that it's just the most dramatic story. And I think especially like real life storytelling actually is more challenging than fiction, I think in many ways.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And that's sort of like you were alluding to sort of like the saturation of the memoir category in book publishing. And it's so true because as I've been working in book publishing, my first job was with Random House where I worked for my 20s.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So I've been in book publishing a long time, so something I hear from a lot of people is like, well, someone should write a book about my life, like, because my life is, you know, and I'm like, well, yeah, like, I actually think everyone's life is interesting, like, you know, to a degree, right? It's like humans are interesting. Families are interesting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It's trying to put that like the art is on putting that on the page or getting it into a show where you can make it into a compelling story that people want to listen to. And so I think like it's a very thin critique. And I think probably the breakout success of the show was part of what fueled some of that negative feedback.
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Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I'm like, yep. Yeah, that's literally the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I think the other thing which I wonder how you're dealing with this, especially given that you are now, and I think this is a very cool thing and a very interesting thing as a show evolves and is on the air for a while, that it does start to be in conversation with its audience so much more.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
That's what we're using our Case Files episodes for, is to talk about the person who got in touch because they have CRPS. or like a person who, you know, is a survivor or these other experts that are that are interesting to get in touch. So I really love that piece of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Yeah, and like we should say, and yes, for me too, and I think I am now finally. But like it. Yeah. I mean, it's even with a like runaway, I mean, especially your show. And we can talk about this sort of in numbers wise. But like, you know, so for my show, you know, so we launched the first season, definitely found an audience.
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Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But I also find it, you know, and fortunately, I mean, this was a big part of why I started the nonprofit before the show was because I knew that I was going to need to have some place to send people that is not me. Right. Because I can't give you legal advice on your case if it's a court case. I can't help you find a therapist. I mean, just like I don't have the ability to do those things.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But, you know, I have this network of amazing experts. from the APSAC committee who are all very dedicated that sort of help field a lot of the responses that come in from the show that then go to Munchausen support, which is the nonprofit, which I am, again, still involved with. So I knew I needed some infrastructure there, but I think for me, I realized in the very beginning,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
when I would get notes, especially from survivors, like, you know, get on the phone with them. And I was just like, oh, this is going to wear me out so fast. And I will not be able to keep making the show. Like I have to choose between this and making the show. And I wonder for you, as you say, you're hearing from a lot of people with You know, their trauma.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I understand because it's like it is such an intimate medium and people have a very strong parasocial connection with you and they feel like they can tell you. And that feels, you know, like a huge honor and sort of responsibility that can be tough to bear. So I wonder for you, like, how do you deal with that?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
like those responses from people that you're getting where they're really sharing a lot of personal stuff with you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And you spend so much time with it. I mean, yeah, it's the same thing for my team. Like my producer, Mariah, actually, you know, because she's the person who listens to all the raw tape multiple times and pulls the selects, which is like a big part of the job of a producer for a show like this. Like she's spending actually way more time listening to those details over and over again than I am.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
You know, we were getting like 60,000 downloads a month, which is actually like pretty solid. And that puts you in a even that sort of you're in a pretty small category of shows. And like you, I mean, I didn't know anything about monetization. So I was working with, you know, an original ad seller that was like meh. And, you know, but the show was monetized like pretty, pretty immediately. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So I think, yeah, it's a lot.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It's worth it. It's really rewarding. I mean, I think that's like, you know, that's something a lot of people ask me specifically with my show. You know, we're talking about very, very difficult stories of child abuse. And it is difficult material to spend with it. And in the beginning, I did find some of it triggering. I have really that is very well managed now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I it is also so rewarding and it's so like coming from. in the situation in my own life feeling extremely powerless, to be able to be of use to this cause is extremely healing for me. And to be able to meet all these people and sit with them, I get way more out of it. And I think it's just about managing all those pieces. So Brittany, you have a big year coming up. I have a big year coming up.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So what's on deck for you next?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Yes. So season five, which is the story of Sophie Hartman, who is a white evangelical missionary who adopted two little girls from Zambia and was investigated a couple of years ago for medical child abuse here in Seattle, where we both live. So that is the Putting all those episodes in the can right now. So again, if you are a subscriber, you will be able to get all eight episodes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
During the first season or after the first season. And then I had a long break while I was like getting because I had been working on the second season. But my show was originally seasonal. Now we sort of are the seasonal and always on. We do both the second season, you know, interestingly, because
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It's the first time we've ever done that to get everything in the can before launch. So that has been quite a deadline machine, but very, very excited to share that one with people. I think I go into every season being like, no, this is the craziest case we've ever covered. But this one really has some unique elements in terms of, you know, sort of diving into the evangelical stuff.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And there's a lot of interesting elements of the sort of transracial adoptions and that kind of thing. So, yeah, I'm very excited to share that season with listeners. And then we will have another season. We'll have our second season. season in 2025 later in the year, and then we are in that weekly format. So I have a lot of interesting topics we're going to be touching on in the next year.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I am also doing a tour at some point. Details still TBD on that. And I am launching... a book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, which I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber, who fans of the show will know. So we are going to be doing some press and some events. So keep your eyes out for all of that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And then we're also kind of officially launching True Story Media, which is the network that you joined us on Right. And yeah, so we're really excited about that. And just I'm talking to a lot of potential creator partners. And so we're going to be getting all that up and running. And I think that will keep me out of trouble.
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Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Yeah, I feel ready. You know, like being in your 40s, like if you are a woman and listening to this in like your 20s or, you know, or 30s or whatever, and just know that like being in your 40s rules, like it is so much better than... Like it just, you really like, I, I can't speak highly enough of it.
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Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I think it's a, it's a, it's a time when you feel like you can really like do the things that you were meant to do and kind of like, yeah, it's, it's really been.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
No, my dad gets mad if I swear.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Part of how I financed the second season was I had I had a deal with a network that went south before my show even launched. And that was like a whole drama that I've talked about a little bit on the show. I was very illuminating.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
actually it gets mad if anyone's i remember i um i i was i was covering something from um it's it's not really because of my dad it's more just a sort of like that's kind of just my my style um but yeah i did uh i did cover some some very irresponsible coverage of the maya kowalski case that happened on a podcast that's called guys we fucked and um i i did say the name of the podcast to attribute the clips i was obviously um and uh my dad was like i don't
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
know about that vulgar language that show is called. I was like, well, dad, that is the name of the show. So it's not. I mean, I think I probably do, especially in the first season where there's a little bit more of me like off and off talking. But yeah, no, I don't.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Thank you for hosting. I'll give you a key.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Unfortunately, it is a little bit of a drive from where I live.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
That is that's helpful. That's helpful when you're coming down to Seattle. So thank you so much, Britt. And excited for both of us to just like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
rule the world yeah i'm really i'm really excited go get them i really appreciate that um i have a friend in this business i think it's huge well i feels good appreciate being your friend also i'm happy to be that person for you nobody should believe me case files is produced and hosted by me andrea dunlop our editor is greta stromquist and our senior producer is mariah gossett administrative support from nola karmush
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It was very like it was a really, really good lesson about how, oh, like if you, you know, like you can be told left, right and sideways that you have control over your show. But actually, if you have sold it to a network, you do not. And like that's that's true. And so it's just like they will always be watching for their bottom line. And that's just That's just the way it is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I've got a fun bonus episode for you today. Today we are chatting with Brittany Ard from You Probably Think This Show Is About You. This show was a huge breakout hit when it launched last year, and it went to number one on Apple and Spotify. Britt and I are both here in Seattle, and she's on my new network, True Story Media.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Sort of like, I don't know if that's good or bad. It just is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
No, I mean, it almost did. But yes, I mean, like our production costs for both of our shows were very, very high. And that's for a number of reasons. Yeah. So even that, but that is how I was able to, you know, make a second season, right? So then we, because I did end up getting to keep that money. Yeah. So then my second season came out in the summer of 2022.
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Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And, you know, going into that, I was like, I don't know how I'm going to keep making this show. And especially because where the numbers were at then, you know, it was definitely not possible. Right. And then the show really took off. I mean, the thing that I peg it to is.
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although this was not responsible for this kind of, it's certainly not like, you know, we've, we've been on new and noteworthy a bunch of times since. And it's not, I mean, we always get a bump from it, but it was on new and noteworthy. And then it just like went through the roof. And there was like a, you know, there was a bunch of other stuff. We'd been on the air for a while.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
We had an audience there. I'd been doing interviews. I'd been doing cross promos. So it wasn't only that, but then it was like overnight, you know, we went from having like, you know, we started our second season. We had kind of like 80, okay. A hundred thousand downloads a month. Um, and then all of a sudden we had like 800,000 downloads a month, right? It's a huge jump.
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Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And then, you know, and then we've sort of, numbers have gone up and down. We've grown a lot this year, even after that, but we had like the iOS update, which anyone in podcasting knows, like Apple changed how they counted downloads and everyone got hit.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But yeah, so I mean, it was at that point where I realized that I was like, oh, I don't have to, because before that I was like, oh, I have to sell this show to a network. Like I have to go back into this sort of like, which was not really what I wanted, but it was like a financially not feasible to keep making the show. And then I had this conversation with actually Scott Solomon from Spotify.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Who's amazing. Who's amazing, who we both love, like one of my favorite people in the industry. And he was like, and again, I didn't, I had an ad sales company who was working, but I didn't know anything about monetization period, right? And he was like, oh, you shouldn't be trying to sell your show to a network. You should start a network. And he was the first person who put that.
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Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I was like, oh. And then he was like, you know, was telling me like all this stuff. He's like, here, here's what you need to know. I went on this whole thing about like CPMs and like this and that and programmatic everything. And I was like, Scott, that all sounds great. I have no idea what you just said.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
right so i really went on this journey to like really learn a lot about how sort of the back end of advertising so i didn't understand really a lot about that when i came in or really anything or like especially the specifics of how it worked right um and so the business of podcasting can be quite opaque and so i was able to make my show profitable by moving on and hiring a team of my own that was freelancers and really just like yeah making it a really tight ship um and certainly that was much easier to do once i knew what i was doing right because i
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I was always very involved with my show, but, you know, especially like in the third season, like I really, you know, I was like pulling selects and really doing like a lot of stuff that was just like way, way more hands on on the producer side. And, you know, and I think I have a very like it's given me a perspective on like, yeah, how how much a really talented, lean team can accomplish.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And also I have so much appreciation for People like Sid and my wonderful producer, Mariah Gossett, my sound engineer, Robin Edgar, they're so talented. And those roles are really part of having a good story editor. Those roles are so integral to making... a really good podcast, especially when you have a format like ours, right, where you're doing documentary style.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
You know, our shows are on the more expensive end, regardless of how you do them, because they just are like, you know, we travel, we do you do field recording, you do lots of different voices in one episode, which makes it more expensive for them, the sound engineering. So there's like just a lot of pieces. It's not that standard just interview interview. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And we do some of those episodes now for sort of in-between seasons. And those are far easier to pull off. But it's storytelling.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It is. It is. And, you know, my show is very, very research heavy. And there's just a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of elements.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I mean, and I, that is a part of my show. It's very, it's very time consuming. And actually for season five was the first time I've ever hired someone to help with research. And it was like, oh, such a godsend. And she found incredible stuff like on sort of the Wayback Machine internet archive and stuff, you know, where I'm just like, this person is amazing. So I'll probably keep her forever.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But yeah, I also deal with a very litigious group of people that I'm covering, which was why, and understandably, I think, I understand why people are, I mean, part of the biggest reason I got into this is I saw, when I launched my book, I saw how reticent traditional media was to cover these cases, especially if one has not had a criminal conviction, which is most of them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I was like, oh, like literally no one else is gonna do this. At least not that I can see.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Yeah. And it's, I mean, and definitely like Mike Weber was so integral to the launch of the show. And this is, you know, part of the reason we are, you know, doing this book together that the mother next door that comes out in February, that is about three of his cases and really just about his career and how he sort of, came to be this very well-known detective in this arena.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And yeah, I mean, so it definitely like I think that that is what is so exciting to me about podcasting. Very different from like, you know, I come from a really traditional form of media. I come from book publishing. I was a publicist, so I worked a lot with the traditional media back in the aughts where it was like obviously a very, very different landscape. And and I've seen like how
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
like those challenges are and like how these stories in particular get shut down. Right. And so it definitely took some doing to figure out how to cover cases and be legally, you know, robust enough to put them out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I mean, you know, it seemed to you like you, you know, a lot of your first season was about your own story, but you did talk to other people who'd had interactions with anyone. You interviewed your parents and, you know, like, I mean, you interviewed your dad was on the show a lot. And, and that's, I mean, that's really, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It's very like emotionally high stakes stuff that you do with your work. And I do think, you know, I do think your read is right, that you that is the reason that it connected with so many people. And so let's talk a little bit about the reaction to your show, because so you had, you know, you launched in the summer of 2024.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
yeah we released the first week of june okay and so before we even get into like how the show took off i mean what were you and you said like that made me laugh you're like i think it's a little delusional about my expectations which i think is like is kind of helpful in some ways because i think if you know like if you know how bad the odds are That your show will be able to monetize.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I mean, just the numbers-wise, they're very bad. Like, the idea of, like, the money that we spend on our podcast, like, launching an independent podcast and thinking and expecting to make that money back is, like, never. Like, not in a million years will you do that. Full DeLulu. Like, full DeLulu. And yet... Here we are.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But I think it's like it is good to have a little bit of that delusion going into art. I mean, it's like you also have to like sort of learn your lessons and, you know, be whatever and like get a fuller picture as you go. But like that is actually helpful in the arts. And like it's you just want to like you kind of have to have that energy when you're going in.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Otherwise, you just like will talk yourself out of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I'm not saying it's a good idea. By the way, I'm not recommending that someone go spend six figures to make a season of a podcast. Like probably be prepared. Like, yeah, I mean, unless you like, listen, I don't know what your financial situation is listening to this, but like definitely like don't go into debt. Don't quit your job.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Like don't do anything crazy because like probably the chance aren't like the chance that you and I are sitting here with it. Like, yeah, a million to one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon. So soon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated. The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
What followed was a year of upheaval, violence, and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North. In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
It is a history show, but told as gossip with all of the juiciest bits. Who was beefing? Who was canoodling? Who was posting saucy love letters? It's so fun and fascinating and just makes history come alive. I'm telling you, I only want history in the form of gossip going forward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I have a special treat for you today. The first episode of my absolute favorite new podcast, Our Ancestors Were Messy, from the incredible Nicole Hill, who was also our story editor for season five. This new show covers the gossip, scandals, and pop culture that made headlines in the black newspapers of segregated communities in pre-civil rights America.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Our Ancestors Were Messy was an official selection at the 2024 Tribeca Film Festival, and I just really think you will love it. You can find the show wherever you listen to podcasts, so go check it out and we will include a link in our show notes. Enjoy!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Just remember that you're the prize always. Always.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
So stay fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lume.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me and if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me Andrea Dunlop your humble narrator of this very show I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
It is very well researched and thoughtful, and Cilicia is just such a good storyteller. So Cilicia chose today's episode specifically for you, and you can listen to the rest of the two seasons of True Crime wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we'll include a link in our show notes. Enjoy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and today we are sharing an episode of a podcast I think you will love, Truer Crime with Cilicia Stanton. This is one of my favorite true crime shows because it does so much more than just rehash the details of a crime. It gets into all of the complex social and cultural factors that surround cases.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
I'm a mom on the go in my 40s. I'm writing books. I'm making this show. I'm going down internet rabbit holes. And given the fact that mornings with a six and a two year old are a complete opera of chaos, I do not have a lot of time to think about what to wear. I want things to be simple and I want them to be really nice. which is why at least half of my wardrobe these days is from Quince.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Real talk, I love this brand so much, and I know so many people who are fans. My friend April loves this brand. My producer Mariah loves it. My husband, my mom, they're all super into Quince. And you can pretty much build a complete wardrobe from Quince with their luxury essentials at affordable prices.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Quince offers a range of high-quality items at prices within reach, like their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start at $50.00, They're washable silk tops, which I love for travel, dresses, organic cotton sweaters, and even 14 karat gold jewelry. All of the items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
And you can feel great about shopping with Quince because they only work with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. So give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com slash believe for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash believe to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash believe. We'll include that information at the link in our show notes. And remember that shopping with our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
As we get into spring and summer, whether you're going on hikes, walking dogs, or just running after your children who definitely do not want to come inside while the sun is still up, you are going to get sweaty. And that's why you need Lume deodorant.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
If you've listened to our recent Season 5 Mailbag episode, you will know that we ended up doing an impromptu ad for Lume because that is how much not only I, but the whole Nobody Should Believe Me team loves this product. And most of the team actually lives in Texas, so you know their deodorant is working extra hard.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Lume was created by an OBGYN who saw firsthand how normal BO was being misdiagnosed and mistreated. And Lume goes beyond a simple swipe to the pits. They have the number one whole body deodorant on the market because let's face it, other stuff can also get stinky. Lume's starter pack is perfect for new customers.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
It comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, and two free products of your choice. like their mini body wash or deodorant wipes, which are my personal favorite. And it includes free shipping. As a special offer for listeners, new customers get 15% off all Lumi products with our exclusive code.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
And if you combine this 15% with the already discounted starter pack, that equals over 40% off their starter pack. So use the code NOBODY for 15% off your first purchase at LumeDeodorant.com. That's code NOBODY at L-U-M-E-D-E-O-D-O-R-A-N-T.com. And please support the show by telling them that we sent you. All that info is at the link in the show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!