Andrea Dunlop
Appearances
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Certainly anybody that's informed on the topic knows that. But I think that did not always used to be that way. Right. And it was seen as this like stranger danger type of aberration, you know, one in a million sort of thing that happened. And then our society grappling with it sort of went through some interesting hurdles along the way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
A major one being the Satanic Panic, where you have all these stories about, you know, daycare workers and underground, you know, the McMartin case and all these like underground tunnels, which my take on it is that that was society grappling with something that we really, really didn't want to look at, which is child sex abuse.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And that actually it was easier and more comforting to think that it was Satanic daycare workers who Because that's a problem that you can ostensibly solve. But I think it's more comforting to think that there's some evil system that you can kind of shut down than it is to confront the reality, which is that this is Boy Scout leaders, priests, coaches, dads, uncles who are doing this, right?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
It's most likely to be someone that that child knows. And it's not going to be someone who is an obvious creep all the time. And it's so similar with Munchausen.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And that's where we get into kind of the hullabaloo that happened around the Maya Kowalski case with the film Take Care of Maya and a lot of the coverage that really followed in lockstep with that, where they presented it as a medical kidnapping case. Medical kidnapping is our satanic panic, essentially. It's like, you know, this idea that doctors are just separating families, right?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Like doctors don't make those decisions. Doctors evaluate abuse. It's a legitimate subspecialty. There's just so much disinformation around that. And the Maya Kowalski case was sort of the most high profile one. But I think that there is a similar dynamic going on there. And certainly with Munchausen by proxy, it's not a one in a million thing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I think the behavior is along a spectrum, but I think it's far more common and getting worse because of social media, because of which I would assume actually some of the behaviors that y'all talk about on betrayal and this sort of more male deception and cheating and that kind of thing, like talking to Spencer Herron case, like social media has given people
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
people unfettered and unlimited access to attention. And, you know, I think it was Dr. Romani says in the TV series, like, oh, that's the dangerous combination, right? Attention seeking plus lack of empathy. I mean, that is exactly how you describe Munchausen by proxy behaviors. And so I think there's every reason to believe that it's getting worse. And that is a scary world to live in.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but like the world is not what you thought. That mom of the sick child who's raising money on GoFundMe and seems like the most heroic mother you've ever met. could be the scariest person you've ever met. And so I think that's why these conspiracy theories around medical kidnapping get traction because the reporting on it is very thin.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Child abuse professionals do not make good money. Child abuse pediatrics is a highly trained and not well-paid subspecialty. They get trashed in the media. They get accused of snatching babies. I mean, it's not for the faint of heart. And also just like that work, like, Doing that frontline work of rushing to the hospital to see a child that's been abused is obviously emotionally grueling work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
There isn't any scenario where you could make it make sense that doctors just want to do that. It's a nightmare for the hospitals. The hospitals can get sued. You know, it's like there's no motivation. But I think the reason those stories still take off in the media is that people's discomfort around the reality of this abuse is so, so deep.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I mean, I became a media outlet because I was so fed up with the way that media was covering this case. Right. And it's been interesting over the last few years as I've kind of jumped first, I guess. I've noticed that awareness is increasing, especially because of the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case, which was so high profile.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I do think that there's more of a conversation happening than there was five years ago. But, you know, there was like so much reticence to talking about it. Like I remember when my novel came out and like I had written like in
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
essay for it and that got killed at the last minute and there was just like a lot of like no no no no no if there's not a conviction you can't talk about it and I was like if we're not talking about the cases where there aren't convictions then we're not talking about the problem right like when you get into the extremes and allows people to put it at arm's length. That person is a monster.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
That person is a psychopath that like I would see coming and this would never happen to me. And that's not reality. And I think that was why for me, it was so important to talk about my own experience because the other thing that we do with perpetrators of crimes, especially if it's something where it just feels so like deeply, deeply, deeply wrong is
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
we often say, oh, well, that person must have had a horrible childhood. That person must have been abused as a child. There must be some, like, dots I can connect. And I think that that's part of the let me tell myself a story about this that makes me feel safe, right? Where, like, as long as XYZ doesn't happen in my family, we won't end up with one of these perpetrators in our family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And that's just not the case, right? I mean, my sister did not, by anybody else's, you know, nobody else witnessed anything traumatic happening to her. We were not raised in an abusive household. Like, It's not something where, oh, there's some straight line that you can draw. And I think that's really uncomfortable for people.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I think people really want to believe that something awful has to happen to a person to make them like this. And I don't think that's true. I think it is that combination of lack of empathy and need for attention that really can supercharge these behaviors. Totally.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah. And I think that that's something that the vagaries of that like really is lost on people that have not had to interact with these systems. And I think people here and a lot of this, again, when I'm talking about like, you know, my kicks and bugs work for NBC and his whole do no harm series. Like a lot of this is I think intentionally created a confusion where it'll be like.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Courts said doctors disagree. Like courts said, you know, this and that. Right. And you're like, OK, which court under what circumstances? Like, give me more information. Right. Yep. And everything goes to the family court first because those are less, you know, those investigations take less time than the criminal investigation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
So we end up in a lot of situations where the family court gives the children back during an active criminal investigation, which just I think sounds ridiculous. insane, but that happens all the time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Likewise, you know, there's this thing of like, well, doctors at this hospital said this, but other doctors disagree without ever mentioning that those other doctors are people who were hired as expert witnesses by the parent defending themselves. Right. Important information.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And like, I think people don't realize that the courts don't take the steps that you would think in the face of a criminal conviction to like Mm-hmm. And so now the dad has to pay to do that.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
So just the onus that ends up on a protective parent in any child abuse situation, I think people have no idea what that looks like or just people don't realize how easy it is actually to get access to children again.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And it's, you know, it's so complicated. And I think it kind of goes back to this question of once you have identified a person as this type of abuser, where it has so much in common, montosemiproxy with child sex abuse, where it is, you know, an extremely compulsive behavior. It's one of those things where, again, I think like, and I think we can
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
more easily recognize it in child sex abuse cases where it's like okay if you cross that line with a child you're not a safe adult period like if you're capable of doing that like you know whether or not you should be thrown in jail for the rest of your life or we should do something else with you is sort of a separate question but like you are not a that's why we put people on registries that's why we say they can't go near schools like we have no such attitude towards much as my proxy perpetrators yeah there is this idea that it is like some mental illness that people are sort of quote suffering from
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And much like child sex abuse, there is an underlying psychiatric disorder, a factitious disorder imposed on another. It's very similar to pedophilic disorder, which is also in the DSM, also very challenging to treat. Also very, you know, unlikely that a perpetrator will take enough accountability to be treated for it. And it doesn't reduce someone's culpability.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And it's like a very complicated thing that happens when, like, children always want their parents. That's such a biological drive for kids. That's a survival mechanism. even if their parent is not capable of loving them or being safe with them, like they will always kind of have this longing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
So you can have a situation where someone is separated from their parent and then they really, really, really idealize that parent And don't then protect themselves. I mean, it's really complicated. And then for survivors that have fully processed the abuse or not going that direction of saying this didn't happen to me. Right. Fully understand, fully process the abuse.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I mean, we saw Joe in our fourth season really struggling with this with with their mom of like they totally recognize what their mom did to them and they understand a lot about the dynamics and they still love that person. And I mean, I would say most of the survivors I know are either low contact or no contact, but it's really complicated to navigate that relationship.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah. I'd love to start off with just your background. How did you get into being a true crime podcaster?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah. I mean, it's a really profound part of the experience. And I think when people, you know, people like to throw the word gaslighting. I know. As like, you know, it's sort of this like pop psychology term. But I think like when you really have gone through like gaslighting to my mind is like someone is systematically making you doubt your perception of reality.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And, you know, it's extremely disorienting and it's sort of its own whole thing to recover from. And certainly for me, you know, given that my sister is in my whole life growing up and is in my earliest memories and was a huge part of my childhood. I mean, we're very close in age. She's my only sibling. It really breaks your brain for a while.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah. This is now 14 years that this has been in my life. And I've really gone through different stages of processing it. And then it was like very clear that like this, okay, this is permanent. And then I sort of started to think about it as a death. I started to think about it as there was a person that I grew up with, that I love, that I had these experiences with, and she died.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I came to a new understanding of it, which is that that person that I thought I knew was probably never there and that it was always a mask. And that the parts of her that I experienced as being loving and being connected were just a person, like, mimicking those behaviors. And that was a really painful revelation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
It was much easier to think of her as a person that I loved and was there and died. But I think it was a really necessary one. So then there's the question of like, what do you do with all those memories?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And the way that I frame it, and when I see other people struggling with this, what I hope people can come to eventually is a place that I think I finally arrived at after a lot of work, which is my experiences were still real. Like, I loved my sister. I had fun with her growing up. I had a happy childhood with her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And I think like I'm sure that you get so many emails and messages from people listening to the betrayal shows that like relate with that experience and see themselves in that. And I think there can be such there's healing in making that content. There's healing in listening to it. Listening to the betrayal shows has helped me.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Well, I really appreciate that. It means a lot coming from you, and I similarly really respect what you guys do over there at Glass, and I think... You know, I know how much this can mean to people as listeners and navigating the pitfalls of how exploitative true crime can be is a huge job. Yeah. I know y'all take it seriously because I know you're behind the scenes process.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And I hope that we together can set a new standard in this industry because I think it really needs to happen. Yeah, I was giving iHeart credit.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I was thinking about that when you were saying you guys are tackling this. I was like, this is a really good time because we did like a little thing on our Patreon about that case because I was like, oh, this just feels so germane to like, especially talking about, you know, because obviously the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case, there's a lot of parallels there, right?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Where you have someone who's an abuse victim who commits a crime and like, how do you talk about that? How do you think about that? And I think just the, we were talking about how the discomfort around male sexual abuse in particular weighed so heavily on that court case.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah, that's that's incredible. I'm so I'm glad that they're supporting it. Something that is very special about podcasting, like podcasting feels like a medium where you can take a lot of risks. Yeah. Someone has to go first. So I think like having a proof of concept with the podcast like that certainly helps TV folks make good decisions of like, OK, there's an audience for this.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
So maybe it is worth taking a little bit more of a risk. It's a safer landing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
No, this is my first nonfiction book. The other four are novels. And it's very funny because people are always like with the book or with the show, they're like, oh, my God, I love your show. I mean, not because like, you know, I know it's like it's like they're trying to tell me like, oh, not because I love child abuse. I'm like, no, I know. I understand what you're saying. And it's like, right.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Of course, like, I want people to be engaged with the storytelling. I want them to connect to that. They're not going to care about it unless they are connecting to the story and unless they are staying engaged with the story, right? And, like, obviously, we take it really seriously. Obviously, we do the utmost to tell things ethically. But, like, you also have to have a good story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah, for sure. Well... This was amazing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
That's a great answer. I mean, I really see like that imprint everywhere. For the work you've done after that, you know, and also that just really plugs into what I think is interesting about true crime stories, which is the sort of long tail of them and the way that they impact the people who are pulled into them. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
So one of the things you're known for is your work on Betrayal and now Betrayal Weekly. How did you come to that story that was the first season of Betrayal?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that that shows up in the quality of the season and just the emotional depth of it. And I'm really interested in what you said about This idea of not coming from a place of anger. This is a really complicated part of interviewing people about these stories, right? Because they have every right to be angry.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
You have every right to want to even go on a sort of revenge journey. But doing that on a podcast is not actually helpful to anyone, right? It's not helpful for the listener. It's not really ethical to sort of try and get someone in that energy, even if it can be compelling in its own right. And I have the same experience.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
sort of thing when I talk to folks who are often dealing with really extreme betrayals. And then on top of that, you know, the abuse to them or abuse to their children or children that they care about. And it's, I think, really important to make sure that someone is ready to have that conversation. It was important to me, you know, I started off
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
With telling my own story in the first two seasons of the show, kind of bit by bit. And I sort of revisit pieces of it from time to time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I was like, it's such a vulnerable thing and it's such a vulnerable thing to put out there and then have people react to. There are so many points along this journey where getting on a mic would have been the absolute wrong choice for me. Right.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And I think there's also like the expectation setting, because if you're talking about a case where it's either an unsolved case or it's a case where there wasn't a good outcome or it's a case where like, The person you're talking to wants some action to be taken by authorities. That's not something that we can make happen. Can't always guarantee. Right.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And like, so I think that that's also like a really tricky part of it of making sure that I'm talking to you like, yes, we're going to put all this out there and. I think people are going to care. I think people are going to get something out of it. They're going to learn something important. They're going to relate with this experience. I hope you get a deep personal catharsis from sharing this.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
But like the cavalry is unlikely to mount up because unfortunately, that's just not often how it works. And this may not end with answers.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Can you can you kind of give us a give us an intro to the case and how you got interested in it?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Hell yeah. I mean, that's amazing. And I think this is one of the most interesting parts of working in the true crime sphere and why it's so important to like... take this job seriously and be really responsible is because it does have real world impacts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And yeah, I mean, this question of law enforcement, it's like, so I, the case that I'm working on right now for our next season is one that I am hoping that some action will happen on. How realistic that is, who knows? But I do think that it is and can be a powerful tool to getting law enforcement involved. And that can be the kind of thing where you get
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
you know, political will for a local prosecutor to actually file charges on something where they might not otherwise. Yeah. You can, you know, get people who are making those decisions at the police department to assign some extra muscle to it. You can, you know, flush out some new information from the community.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And we've definitely learned a lot from the progress that has been made around child sex abuse, which I think it still is underreported. I think most people accept that child sex abuse is real and not rare.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
A few weeks after her sister lost the babies, Andrea Dunlop got another emergency call, this time from her dad. He was claiming that something was wrong with Megan's story. He told her that earlier that week, their mom had been over at Megan's apartment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It was an alarming discovery. So Andrea called her sister's best friend, the one who drove Megan to the hospital.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea needed to talk with Megan's fiancé. When she tracked him down, she says he told her an entirely different story. He said they were no longer together and that he'd left Megan a few months prior.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
So the family went to Megan to ask what was really going on. And according to Andrea, Megan confessed that she had lied. She admitted that she'd actually lost the babies earlier in the pregnancy, right after her fiancé broke up with her. But she was too distraught and embarrassed to tell anyone. With so many different versions of the story, it was hard to know what was true.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea struggled to accept that her own sister could have lied to her like this.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Plus, Andrea had spent hours on the phone consoling her sister while she was in crisis.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It was an unthinkable situation, and everyone in the family was handling it differently.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And Andrea was still trying to find any other possible explanation. As for Megan, Andrea says she was acting like the whole thing never happened.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The last time Andrea tried to approach her sister about her behavior, they got in a fight.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The family was frozen, unsure about the next move. That's when Megan introduced them to a new guy in her life, Andy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea was the maid of honor. And Megan's childhood best friend was in the wedding too.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
This time, it seemed different. Megan was married. The family liked her husband. She even let Andrea come with her to the first ultrasound appointment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The baby wasn't due for another month.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
When the baby was finally born, everyone in the room breathed a sigh of relief. The baby was healthy and he was real. Because he was born over a month early, they kept him in the NICU for a few weeks.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
But within the first few months at home, the baby's health took a turn.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea decided to leave New York and move back home. She was working on a novel. And she wanted to write it in a quiet, familiar environment. But whenever she saw her sister and her new nephew, Megan only wanted to talk about one thing. Her son's health problems.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It felt like almost every week there was another crisis with her son's health.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
A surgery like this could be scary in any circumstance. The baby was an infant, only one year old. But considering all of Megan's alleged lies, the Dunlop family was on high alert.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Megan had quit her job at the OB-GYN clinic. She wanted to spend every day, all day, with her sick baby. He was never out of her sight.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It was the first time anyone in their family had been allowed to meet the baby's doctor.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea's mom was relieved to hear that her infant grandson didn't need surgery. And she relayed the good news. But then Megan called Andrea with a different story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The next day, Andrea's parents wanted to come over and talk in person. That was out of the norm.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Munchausens. It's a very serious pattern of behavior, where someone pretends to be sick, even intentionally makes themselves sick. But most dangerous of all, in Munchausens by proxy, they might make someone else sick, often their own children. They might withhold food, drug their child with dangerous medications they aren't prescribed, or even poison them. Anything to get medical attention.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Because people with Munchausen's have a pathological need for attention and sympathy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
As the Dunlop family read about Munchausen's and Munchausen's by proxy, it all sounded so familiar, going all the way back to when Megan was a teenager, constantly having knee pain and back pain. Andrea's parents even alleged that back then, when Megan claimed to be losing her hair,
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It was hard to accept. And Megan had not been formally assessed for Munchausen's. But after decades of witnessing this pattern, Andrea says the family came to their own conclusion. They believed Megan had Munchausen's.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
This time around, there was a baby involved, an innocent child who depended on Megan. Andrea says that changed everything.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The family felt like they could no longer sit back and ignore Megan's behavior. So they decided to intervene. We had to.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Instead, her report was elevated to the child abuse team at the children's hospital. And when doctors reviewed Megan's files, they were alarmed. And they called CPS.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. Recently, we've connected with the host of another popular podcast about betrayal and deception. It's called Nobody Should Believe Me, hosted by Andrea Dunlop. Every season covers a case of factitious disorder, also known as Munchausen's. And for Andrea, the story is personal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
But according to Andrea, the Dunlop family didn't know the hospital brought in CPS until they got a call from Megan's husband.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The whole family was reeling. Did they do the right thing? Well, for context, it took much more than their mom's report to get an emergency removal approved. This action is always a last resort, something that's only done if multiple experts agree that the child is in immediate danger.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Even though Andrea and her parents hated this outcome, they said they were acting out of concern for Megan's baby. And finally, it seemed like someone was paying attention.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
But from the very beginning, Andrea says the emergency removal was mishandled.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And according to Andrea, that wasn't the only mistake.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Instead, CPS investigated the case. When it finally came to the hearing in family court, Megan arrived with an entourage of character witnesses. This is what Andrea remembers from that day.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
We're going to be hearing more from her over the next few weeks. So we wanted to start by telling Andrea's story. It starts in childhood, and it involves some of her earliest memories of her sister, Megan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
At the end of the family court hearing, the judge ruled with Megan. According to the court documents, the case was closed with an unfounded finding, meaning that, quote, available information indicates that more likely than not, child abuse or neglect did not occur, or there's insufficient evidence for the department to determine whether the alleged child abuse did or did not occur.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And with that, Megan's son was returned to her care.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
According to Andrea, Megan cut off the family. She says Megan wouldn't return their texts or calls.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea focused on managing her own mental health and writing her novel. A few months later, her father got a call from Megan's husband, Andy. According to their father, Andy wanted to talk about how he'd caught Megan in a lie. Andy said it was over something interpersonal, nothing medical or to do with their kid. But nevertheless, Andy's call was an opening for the Dunlops.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Over time, it became clear that Andy was standing by Megan. Today, Andrea believes the real reason he reached out to their dad was for money.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
With that, talks between Andy and the Dunlops fell apart. The door to Megan's life closed again, and it stayed closed for years. In that time, Andrea published her first novel, and she got married herself, without her sister, at her wedding.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
After years of silence from Megan, a mutual friend reached out to Andrea. She shared the shocking news that Megan had another preterm delivery.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Now the family was more concerned than ever, but they were still cut off from Megan. Through acquaintances, bits and pieces of information filtered back to the Dunlops.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
After that, the Dunlops didn't hear anything about Megan or her children for several years.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Her sister Megan was a social butterfly.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
According to the fundraiser page, Megan's daughter had been in and out of the hospital for her entire life. It was now her second child with severe health complications.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Then they found out that Megan had been going public with her story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
After that, it was silent for a few months. Andrea had just had a baby of her own, and she drew a boundary with her family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Soon, something major did happen.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The whole family was relieved. It felt like their nightmare was about to finally come to an end, especially when the police shared that they had video evidence of Megan in a hospital room with her daughter.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
We've seen a copy of this police report, and the investigation went on for two years. During this time, Megan did not have custody of the children. The whole family waited anxiously for updates on the case. Meanwhile, Andrea focused on her career.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She always felt cool when she got to spend time with her older sister and her friends. Because Andrea looked up to Megan. By the time they were teenagers, they had each other's backs.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Megan's lawyers called Andrea's work textbook defamation and alleged that Andrea has a bizarre obsession with Megan. They said that if Andrea insinuates in any way that her sister committed Munchausen syndrome by proxy or medical child abuse, those statements are false and they are defamatory. And at the end of the cease and desist, Megan's lawyer dropped a bombshell.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The deputy prosecuting attorney on the case concluded that, quote, Megan went on to reach out to local and national news outlets. She wanted to share her side of the story, where according to her, she is repeatedly being falsely accused of medical child abuse. In one interview, Megan said, quote, I've always done everything in my power to take care of my children.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Yet now, I was being treated with suspicion. Megan's cease and desist didn't silence Andrea. Instead, it lit a fire under her. Because she believes what her sister is doing is medical child abuse. And yeah, that is how I got here. She started seeking out a community of people who understand Munchausen's.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She went to a conference on Munchausen's hosted by the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children. And there, for the first time, she met other people who had the same story as her family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And the way she wanted to help was to tell their stories.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
So in 2020, she started developing a show of her own.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She started with one case that struck a chord.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea saw strong parallels between Hope's case and Megan's.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
and Hope's family was ready to tell their story too.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Both girls loved sports, like tennis and swimming. But in high school, Megan started having problems with her back.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
In 2022, Andrea launched her podcast, Nobody Should Believe Me.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea just finished her fifth season. Each season features a different family like hers. And her work didn't stop there.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
After all the work she's done and the many years that have gone by, she still hasn't reconnected with her sister. Megan declined to comment for Andrea's podcast. In fact, Megan is still talking to the media, claiming that she's being falsely accused of medical child abuse. And Andy is still sticking by Megan's side. He says she does not have Munchausen's by proxy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andy regularly posts comments online, stating that Andrea is just playing the victim. He's said that she's making false claims and allegations for profit. But for Andrea, her work was never about making a profit. More than anything, Andrea wants her work to reach her niece and nephew.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
In February 2025, Andrea published her first nonfiction book. It's called The Mother Next Door. She wrote it with Detective Mike Weber, a police investigator who spent his career working on medical child abuse cases.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
All of Andrea's work is guided by her understanding of her sister and the impact she says it's had on their family. After two investigations into Megan yielded no convictions, the Dunlops are left only with their truth. There isn't a clear next step for justice or action. So instead, Andrea is sharing the signs, exposing the patterns, and building a community. In hopes of making a change.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And then Andrea told us that Megan began having knee pain.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
But Andrea recalls what was most alarming of all.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Next week, we're bringing you another bonus episode with Andrea Dunlop. This time, it's a conversation between her and I about true crime podcasting. It's a deep dive, and I think you're going to like it. As you know, we're finished with this season of Betrayal Weekly. We'll be back on May 22nd with Season 4 of Betrayal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It's a whole new story told over a few weeks, just like Ashley's, Jen's, and Stacey's. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea said that Megan always needed to go to the doctor to get something examined or to have x-rays done. But she said Megan had a good attitude about it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea, on the other hand, was perfectly healthy. So whenever her mom and sister went to doctor's appointments, she got to stay at home reading teen magazines.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
But very, you know, it's just like, oh, I gotta get out of this small town. The magazines made her feel mature. They gave her a peek into adulthood. And when Megan went off to college, Andrea got to visit. There, she could put all of her teen magazine knowledge to good use.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Megan didn't seem too concerned about her classes or grades.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Megan had always been drawn to medical stuff, so it felt like a natural fit. Around the same time, their cousin was diagnosed with leukemia. The disease was progressing rapidly.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Eventually, Megan earned her nursing degree and got a job working at an OBGYN clinic in their hometown.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
As Megan's career took off, Andrea's did too. When Andrea graduated college, she moved to New York City to pursue her dream of becoming a magazine writer, or maybe a novelist.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She landed a job at the book publisher Random House.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
New York was a grind. Andrea worked long days and often forgot to call back home to check on her parents and her sister.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Andrea alleges that at one point, Megan got evicted from her apartment. But Andrea was far removed from the family drama back in Seattle.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
But she and her sister still had that sibling code. They were on each other's team.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Soon, her parents' concerns became hard to ignore.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Megan always wanted to be a mom, but taking to the role so quickly for a child she just met seemed troubling and maybe irresponsible. When Andrea tried to talk to Megan about her decisions, they got into a big fight. She says Megan cut her off for months. But then, Megan came to the family with big news.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
With the announcement, Andrea and her family were ready to embrace Megan to start a new chapter.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
So with her boyfriend and his son out of town, the family rallied around Megan. After her first pregnancy scan, she called Andrea with more good news.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
During Megan's pregnancy with the twins, Andrea felt far away. So she made trips home to Seattle as much as she could.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And then on one visit home, Andrea told us about one particular moment. It's a memory she's replayed in her mind a thousand times. A moment where she trusted her sister so much that the lines of her own reality blurred.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
That year, Andrea spent New Year's Eve in Las Vegas. She said that in the middle of the celebration, she got a panicked phone call from her parents.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
With the rest of her family and her boyfriend out of town, Megan was alone, dealing with this crisis on her own.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Their entire family was crushed. By the time their parents got home, Megan had been discharged from the hospital.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
But Sophie's description of the town's reaction to her decision elevates her to the status of martyr.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
In the beginning sections of the book, we also hear from Sophie's little sister, Sam, who contributes journal entries describing the change she sees in her sister.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
After her initial trip, Sophie returned less than a year later and at 19 started interning for an orphan sponsorship ministry. And that was where Sophie would find her true calling.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Reading this book was a disorienting experience. Given the context, a young white evangelical setting out to, quote, save the people of Zambia, I was expecting the writing to be a bit problematic. But it was also settling in for what might, at very least, be an interesting fish-out-of-water story of someone leaving everything they've ever known.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And I didn't know anything about Zambia, so I was looking forward to hearing the little details about day-to-day life. You notice so much when you're in a new place. It's what makes traveling abroad so thrilling. Suddenly, everything from the food to the fashion to the local shopping habits and modes of transportation are new and fascinating.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
I was also quite curious to know what a 20-year-old college kid even does when they land in Zambia. And after reading the nearly 200 pages of this memoir, I learned none of that. Reading this book was the beginning of an experience that I continue to have as I try to get a handle on Sophie's story. It's like the closer I get to it, the more it pixelates.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
It's like trying to see through layers of smoke only to discover more smoke. Sophie's primary descriptor of Zambia is that it's, quote, dusty and basically just kind of hellish.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Because of the obfuscation of many of the exact locations, I can't say for sure whether Sophie really encountered this much dust, but certainly the whole country is not dusty. Zambia is a developing country, but to reduce the nation to scenes of crushing poverty and desperately maltreated children, as Sophie does in this book, is unfair and inaccurate.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Zambia is one of the most urbanized countries in sub-Saharan Africa. In 2008, when Sophie first arrived there, Zambia would have still been reeling from the global economic crisis, but they'd also undergone about a decade of economic growth and export diversification. Progress was being made in education, lowering maternal and child mortality rates, and tackling the HIV-AIDS epidemic.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
But there isn't much nuance to Sophie's descriptions of Zambia. The picture she paints is evocative of those Sally Struthers commercials from the 90s.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
So while there certainly is poverty in Zambia, much like in most places, Sophie's descriptions feel troubling. Now, it's hard to say on its face whether the problem here is that Sophie just needs to take a few more creative writing workshops, or if this is evidence of something deeper, but I just couldn't get over how the people she was with and the place she was in just never came into focus.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Much more vivid than her descriptions of life in Zambia were Sophie's internal experiences, mostly talking to God. These were numerous and florid, occasionally veering into downright romantic passages like this one.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
In her memoir, and when she speaks to the media about her daughters, Sophie refers to the two young girls she brought home from Zambia as orphans. And there's an important cultural nuance here. In the United States, when we say orphan, we usually take this to mean a child whose parents are dead.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
However, because of the differences in family structure, the word orphan has a pretty different context in Zambia, according to Zambian journalist, Glory Mashenghi. Children become orphaned when they lose their parents, but parents are not seen as the only primary caregivers in a Zambian family. Zambians embrace the extended family system.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
So the adults that we would refer to as aunts and uncles are also considered parental figures and often referred to as mom and dad as well, especially in traditional village settings. Similarly, cousins are referred to as sisters and brothers, etc. So when someone loses their parents and can't live on their own, the other adults in the family automatically take over custody of that, quote, orphan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
In a few circumstances where families are too poor or too abusive, the orphans will be taken to an orphanage, where they will remain until they are able to be reunited with family or in cases where that's not possible, come of age and go out on their own. So while in the U.S.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
we may think of an orphanage as a place where abandoned children await adoption, orphanages in Zambia can serve as more of what we think of as a foster home for children. Because of the vagueness and frankly the strangeness of Sophie's writing, it's hard to get a grasp on what she was doing day to day in Zambia prior to meeting and adopting her older daughter Em.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Largely, it seems that she was in the business of saving souls. There's a lot of talk about saving women and children and being a quote, mother to them. But the particulars aren't clear other than various mentions of proselytizing and Bible study and occasional mentions of meetings with various healthcare providers. And Sophie doesn't appear to have any specialized training.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
However, as well demonstrated by the book, she sure does seem to know a lot of scripture. There's a lot about Jesus in this book. I would say at least a third of the text is Sophie in rapturous conversation with him. Now, as for any of the earthly men she encounters in her time in Zambia, Sophie has nothing good to report.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to MunchausenSupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Now, sadly, sexual assault is both pervasive and universal. And unfortunately, it has not been possible to corroborate or disprove any of the anecdotes Sophie shares in her book. The story she tells here could be true, but her descriptions of the people in Zambia, particularly but not exclusively the men, often paints them as cruel and violent.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And while we don't get any sense of the daily details like meals or dress, the passages about the suffering of the children she encounters are vivid and gruesome. The book positions Sophie as both a martyr and a savior, helping various women and children at great risk to herself. And while Sophie talks a lot about Jesus, she also paints herself very much as a Christ-like figure.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Her story culminates with the adoption of her two daughters, C and M, following a lengthy battle with the Zambian government, who, according to her, fought her every step of the way. Sophie was under 25 at the time, which made it against Zambian law for her to adopt children. She was also less than 21 years older than M, her eldest daughter, which went against a separate legal requirement.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
However, the adoptions did eventually go through, with M in 2014 when she was five and with C, the baby, when she was less than a year old in 2015.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
The audio you just heard is from a news story that aired on King 5 television back in May of 2019. This story wasn't on my radar, but I had a lot going on back then. I had just had a baby and had a new book coming out. And this was around the time that Munchausen by Proxy was really entering my work life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Every other case I've covered on this show has concerned parents and their biological children, so I wanted to better understand the nuances of the adoptions in this case and get some insight into the girls' experience.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
To help us understand the process and complexities of transracial adoption, we sat down with Chad Goeller-Sojourner, a Seattle-based writer, educator, and performer who counsels families and organizations on this topic.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
What do you think is the biggest kind of misconception or set of misconceptions about transracial adoption, in particular when you're talking about a white family adopting black children?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
The month that this story aired, I'd done my very first interview about my own family story for Vanity Fair. And this was followed by an appearance on a local station about my third novel, We Came Here to Forget. This was all taking place amid the second investigation into my sister for Munchausen by proxy abuse of her children.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
I have a two-year-old and a six-year-old. And I really see my job as a parent to prepare my kids for the world that they live in. And this is hard enough as it is. So I can only imagine what an uphill battle it would be if you had such a difference in your lived experience to what you know that your children's will be.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
So it's really important to me to note that neither Chad nor myself is against adoption, transracial or otherwise. Families come to be in all kinds of different and often beautiful ways, and families are always complicated. It's also true that there are some additional layers of complexity when adoption comes into the picture.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And as I know from talking to friends who've adopted, including our season two family, the Weyburns, it's just a lot to navigate. As Chad explained, there is always the risk that children in these situations will come to be seen as commodities. And consideration for them and their birth parents isn't always top of mind, sadly. In the worst case scenario, adoption can be seen as a marketplace.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
For example, prospective parents can flock to states that allow shorter windows of time for birthing parents to change their mind. And when you add international borders into the discussion, children are also at an increased risk of being fundamentally and profoundly disconnected from their homeland.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Right. So this family, you know, it is a transracial adoption. It's a white mother of two black daughters. And it's also an international adoption that is a faith-based adoption that took place in the context of this woman when she was quite young going to Zambia to do missionary work and then eventually returning to the States with these two girls.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
So can you help us kind of understand these different sort of complications that come around with these things?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
By the middle of that summer, the courts would return my sister's children to her. And a few months after that, the prosecuting attorney would make the decision not to file charges against my sister, Megan Carter, despite the horrifying and voluminous evidence against her. But back to Sophie. In general, seeing stories about sick kids in the news is upsetting for a bunch of reasons.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Missionary work itself is very fraught territory. It's mostly young white kids going to countries that have often been destabilized due to long histories of colonialism and foreign conflict. And as Chad pointed out, Sophie's traveling to Zambia to take two girls home was probably not the most efficient or economical way to help out.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
This is the troubling vein running through Sophie's book. It's the grandiosity of thinking that Zambia is a problem and it's one that she's equipped to solve.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And the two kids that Sophie ends up adopting are not the only kids that she tries to, quote, save from Zambia. She attempted to adopt twins before she successfully adopted her older daughter, Em. She also describes many other instances in her book where she's saving kids in a different way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
I don't want to be dismissive of anyone's beliefs, but also, what? What? While the religious piece of Sophie's perspective feels pretty foreign to me as an agnostic, and we're going to bring in an expert to help us unpack those parts of the story, the positioning of Sophie as both a martyr and a savior feels extremely familiar to me, as does the book's fixation on crisis and suffering.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
So much is glossed over in the book, but the scenes like this one where Sophie is heroically saving children feel downright cinematic. So as we move away from Sophie's account of her origin story and the adoptions go through for both C and M in 2015, this brings us back into the real world, a world where Sophie is now a single mother of two.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And after leaving Zambia, she doesn't choose to head home to Michigan, where her family and friends live, where her childhood church congregation is, or where her entire support system appears to reside. She moves to Seattle, where I live. This season on Nobody Should Believe Me.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact-checking by Erin Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Book passages were performed by Ilana Michelle Rubin.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Of course, there are the particular fears and questions that I bring to it, given my experience with my sister. Is this mom telling the truth? What if this child isn't a victim of a rare disease, but a victim of the person purporting to care for them?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Special thanks this week to Chad Goller Sojourner, Glory Mishingi, Francisco Alvarado, who originally covered the story for The Daily Beast, and the many people who spoke to us on background. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Even when there are no red flags for abuse, which is mostly the case, these stories are pretty dystopian because they illuminate a tragic failing of our country's healthcare system.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
The horrible reality that families, many of whom I'm sure would prefer to keep their children's health private, are forced into a situation where they have to perform their trauma publicly in the hopes that kind strangers might step in to relieve the skyrocketing medical bills that could otherwise bankrupt their family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
So while I usually avoid these types of stories in my day-to-day life, once I did see this news report, right away I noticed that Sophie was positioning herself as the only one who saw what was happening with her child.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
This piece on the evening news ended up being the first chapter in what would become a major national news story. This is rare for Munchausen by proxy cases, which usually garner little national coverage outside of the truly sensationalized stories like Gypsy Rose Blanchard and Maya Kowalski. But there were many elements of this story that caught people's attention. For one, there were the optics.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Sophie, who is young, white, blonde, and conventionally pretty, had adopted two children, sisters, from a faraway nation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
In the televised segment, there are images from Sophie's life with her two adorable girls, interspersed with footage from the interview and B-roll of Sophie's younger daughter, who we're referring to as C, who is smiley and cheerfully dressed in the family's kitchen. At one point, as the two play a game together, Sophie sitting beside her daughter's wheelchair, the little girl says this.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
It would be easy to miss this blip in the audio, but the little girl is saying, I don't want to get a poke. I'm so scared. This moment is odd because they're not in a medical setting and there's no medical equipment nearby. To most, this might be a throwaway moment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
But for me, it's a harbinger of how this seemingly inspiring story of a mother who'd moved heaven and earth to help two orphans became this.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
When the Sophie Hartman case broke, it was the typical litany of eye-popping numbers of doctor's visits and procedures that her daughter had to endure. But this season, we're diving into the complicated, many-layered story of Sophie Hartman, a white evangelical woman from a small town in Michigan who traveled thousands of miles to Zambia and returned with two vulnerable little girls.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right. You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Figuring out where to start with these cases can be a challenge. And going in, I always know that hearing from the person at the center of it is probably unlikely. However, in this instance, we had a pretty compelling source document because Sophie wrote a memoir.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
That was an excerpt from Sophie Hartman's 2016 self-published memoir entitled Crowns of Beauty. The book offers her first-person account of her time in Zambia and her journey to adopt her two daughters.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Sophie's younger daughter, who we're referring to as C, and Sophie's older daughter, who we're referring to as M. The cover is a moody professional photo of Sophie carrying her youngest on her hip and holding her older daughter by the hand. Born in 1989, Sophie Hartman grew up in a small town outside of Kalamazoo, Michigan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
From what I've been able to glean about her childhood, she appears to have had a fairly normal, upper-middle-class life. I've spoken to some folks on background who know the family, and they told me that they were well-off and well-respected in town.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
The whole family was also very active in the church, and according to Sophie's memoir, she began her devout relationship with God at the age of 14 during a Christian summer camp. Sophia was a talented athlete and played basketball and soccer growing up and, after graduation, went on to college.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And then, according to her book, a summer mission trip prompted her to leave school about two and a half years early, changing the course of her life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Sophie appears to have been in and out of Zambia from roughly 2008 to 2015, but the details of where she was and with whom are obscured in her memoir. In fact, everything about her time there is obscured, as she notes to the reader that she's changed the names of not only the people who appear in the book, but even many of the towns that she lived in and traveled to.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
I can certainly understand changing the names of people to protect their privacy, but the lengths she goes to to hide the details of her life there are somewhat extraordinary, given that this is a memoir. Notably, in her acknowledgments, which appear in the opening pages of the book, she thanks a large number of Americans by name.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
But given that the memoir is focused on her time in another country, her words of thanks to the folks in Zambia are strikingly different.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And that is it. I've written acknowledgements of my own for five books now. And especially on the first one, you name just literally every person ever, like the barista who got your coffee while you were writing in the morning, your third grade teacher, your dog walker. If these Zambian friends were so ecstatic about the book, why aren't we thanking any of them by name?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
The book is largely focused on her time abroad and we're given scant details of Sophie's life before in Michigan. In fact, we mostly hear about how much resistance she encountered for a decision to go to Zambia.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And look, I can imagine that Sophie's parents were probably a bit dismayed at the idea of their daughter dropping out of college to move to Zambia. However, an idealistic college kid heading out to save the world is so common it's a cliche. We all know the guy who goes on to be an accountant but never shuts up about his time in the Peace Corps.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated. The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
What followed was a year of upheaval, violence, and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North. In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
The case has baffled law enforcement and the families for two decades, and as a Philly native, the story has always haunted Gunning. Now she's out to find the truth. I binge this series in a few days. It's so gripping, and the host's connection to the story and the care with which she handles it really makes it something special. So go check it out. You can listen to the whole thing right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
True Story Media. Hey, it's Andrea, and today I want to introduce you to a really incredible series called There and Gone from my friend Andrea Gunning, who you may know from the hit shows Betrayal and Betrayal Weekly. There and Gone is the story of Danielle Imbo and her friend Richard Patron, who disappeared from a busy Philadelphia street 20 years ago today.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
You can find There and Gone at the link in our show notes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Now, here's the first episode. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Get the Money and Run - Trailer
And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Get the Money and Run - Trailer
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Get the Money and Run - Trailer
True Story Media. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Get the Money and Run - Trailer
Hello, it's Andrea, and we are sharing the trailer for a brand new show from our friends over at Orbit Media, who are launching the fourth season of their excellent series, The Burden, this week. Get the Money and Run immerses listeners in the world of Joe Loya, a notorious bank robber who hit more than 30 banks in a single year in Southern California.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Get the Money and Run - Trailer
It's at once a fast-paced heist story and a deep look into Joe's mindset and motivations, because he is the one telling the story. Get the Money and Run is out now, so give it a listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
But if he was expecting every perpetrator to be a master manipulator, Brittany Phillips, a person who fooled exactly no one, would prove him wrong. Brittany brought home for Mike how important an offender's digital footprint could be.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The phenomenon of social media has exacerbated Munchausen by proxy in unimaginable ways, and in the early 2010s, when Mike investigated Brittany, it was only beginning to emerge how dramatic the coming shift would be. And with Mary Welch, Mike would see just how inept the systems around medical child abuse truly are, and how money and the soft power of charm and beauty can blur all the lines.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Mary was the archetypal perfect upper-middle-class mom, impossible for many to view as a criminal. At first, I'd planned to help Mike with a book proposal, introduce him to some agents, and then bow out. But before I knew it, I'd gone through the looking glass, too, and offered to write it with him. I'd spent years trying to avoid analyzing what happened in my family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
But by the time I met Mike, I was deep into the process of trying to understand it and to hopefully help others do the same. It was a fateful meeting that would launch not only the creation of this audiobook, but my podcast, Nobody Should Believe Me, which, as of this writing, has been downloaded more than 5 million times. Before we go any further, some lexicon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The disorders underlying what are colloquially known as Munchausen syndrome, factitious disorder imposed on self, and Munchausen by proxy, factitious disorder imposed on another, are grouped together under the umbrella of factitious disorders and are characterized by intentional deception around medical issues for the purposes of attention and sympathy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Munchausen syndrome was first coined by Dr. Richard Asher in The Lancet back in 1951, after Baron Munchausen, a character from a 1785 novel who told tall tales about his exploits. Munchausen behaviors do not always lead to Munchausen by proxy abuse, but they are certainly considered a risk factor by every expert I've spoken to. And we will see ample evidence of both disorders in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It's worth noting that on its own, the Munchausen phenomenon is baffling and complex and causes very real harm to the people it ensnares, even as the risks are less horrific than child abuse. Consider one example. In 2015, Australian food blogger and author Belle Gibson caused a national firestorm when it was revealed to be a hoax all along that she'd cured numerous forms of cancer with her diet.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The book was fiction, yes, but it was heavily based on events that had destroyed my family. I'd never written anything that made me feel so vulnerable. Overall, the launch was not going especially well. If you are lucky enough to publish more than one or two books in your life, as I have been, you are sure to have at least one where everything goes wrong. This was mine.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The cascade of fallout included a fraudulent claim that she had donated $300,000 to various charities. Bell was ultimately convicted in the Federal Court of Australia for breaching consumer laws and was fined more than a quarter of a million dollars, which, as of this writing, she still has not paid.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
According to news reports, numerous people came forward with their stories of foregoing traditional treatment for their very real cancer diagnoses in order to follow Bell's regimen.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In a disquieting interview with Australia's 60 Minutes, Bell maintains she believed her diagnosis to be real and that she was fooled by unscrupulous doctors, another claim that was swiftly proven false, and evades taking responsibility for her actions. But even in more quotidian cases than Bell's, the damage done to those involved is often deep and long-lasting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The story of Sarah DeLashment, a woman who falsely claimed to suffer from a host of ailments, including muscular dystrophy and breast cancer, was chronicled first by Sarah Treleaven for Elle and then further explored by the podcast Sympathy Pains, which focused on the emotional, financial, and psychological fallout for her primary victims. No one who is ensnared in such a lie is ever the same.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
DeLashmet was ultimately sentenced to 18 months in federal prison after pleading guilty on several counts of fraud. It's important to understand that factitious disorders are characterized by deliberate deception and are not cases of someone who is simply anxious or even having outright delusions about illnesses.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It feels very worth noting here, too, how enmeshed this all is in our deeply flawed and often biased medical system. People do suffer from ailments that can be difficult to get to the bottom of. And if someone feels they are not getting adequate care, they have every right to continue to seek help and move on from doctors who aren't listening to them or treating them properly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Medical gaslighting, the phenomenon of doctors wrongly blaming a patient's symptoms on psychological factors or denying their symptoms entirely, is especially prominent with female patients due to age-old biases in the medical community about women and pain.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Medical misogyny is real, and I don't know a single woman, myself included, who hasn't experienced it, who hasn't been brushed off or had their experience of their own body questioned at least once by someone in the medical establishment. Add in any other marginalized identity and the problem gets worse. Black people receive worse care. The mortality rate for black mothers in the U.S.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
is nearly three times what it is for white women. As do fat people who are routinely denied care because of their size and trans people who face innumerable barriers and biases to receiving care.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Most doctors get into the profession to help, but they are still human beings with biases, and they're operating within a system originally designed to serve the needs of cis white men first with everyone else as an afterthought. We are still in the nascent stages of reforming those ideas.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Take, for example, the Body Mass Index , developed 200 years ago by a Belgian astronomer and mathematician as a way to determine the average man, which he considered a social ideal. Despite its problematic history, this metric is nonetheless trotted out for bodies of all genders and races and used as though it is an infallible metric of health.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
or consider that women were generally excluded from clinical trials until the 1990s, based on an earlier medical ethos that they were just men with boobs and tubes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Black Americans have a particularly horrifying history with the medical system, including the 1932 Tuskegee study of untreated syphilis in the Negro male, wherein black male participants were not told they had syphilis and treatments were intentionally withheld. The study went on for 40 years until an Associated Press expose put a stop to it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
For one thing, my beloved editor had left the publishing house some six months earlier, leaving me orphaned. Since then, there had been so many staffing changes that no one who had worked on my previous books was still in place by the time this had come out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
There is also the grim history of Dr. J. Marion Sims, the so-called father of gynecology, who conducted gruesome experiments on enslaved women, foregoing anesthesia.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
These examples are the tip of the iceberg in terms of why many people have a rightful mistrust of the medical system and find themselves needing to be dogged about receiving care, perhaps even to be a bit more dramatic about their symptoms than they'd prefer. But Munchausen is not seeking a second opinion or even hamming it up a little bit to make sure the doctor takes you seriously.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It's a pattern of deliberate, often extremely well-researched deception, perpetrated for the intrinsic reward of sympathy, attention, and, to a degree, the sheer thrill of fooling people. These same motivations and behavior patterns underpin Munchausen by proxy, but because it involves child victims, who often cannot speak for or defend themselves, the consequences are far more severe.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The term Munchausen by proxy was first coined by the British pediatrician Roy Meadow in 1977. MBP has never been used in either the International Classification of Diseases, ICD, or the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM. In fact, the term MBP is used descriptively rather than diagnostically.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It encapsulates both the act of deliberately falsifying, exaggerating, or inducing illness in a child and the underlying psychopathology of the caregiver who does so. This confusion over terminology is at the heart of our immense cultural bewilderment over the issue itself. One of the questions Mike and I get asked most frequently is whether Munchausen by proxy is a crime or a mental illness.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The answer is both. MBP is used interchangeably to describe the act of medical child abuse, a term coined by child abuse pediatrician and nationally recognized expert Dr. Carol Jenny in her book so titled, published by the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2009.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
and factitious disorder imposed on another, which is the official DSM diagnosis for a caregiver who subjects a child to unnecessary medical care for the purposes of attention, sympathy, and emotional gratification. We'll be using all three terms throughout this book, but MBP is still the most widely used, including by doctors, the legal system, and experts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Worst of all, instead of spending publication day trying to relax before the launch event that night, I had spent it alternating phone calls with my lawyer, agent, and therapist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Mike, who had worked in crimes against children units for years when he got his first medical child abuse case, has a helpful way of cutting through the confusion that arises here. Munchausen by proxy is used the same way pedophilia is often, incorrectly, used, to describe both the act of child sex abuse and the DSM diagnosis of pedophilic disorder, which are related but separate.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I find the comparison helps those new to the topic, both in understanding the relationship between mental illness and actions, and also in grasping the seriousness of what's happening. In both cases, children are being victimized by abusers who, though they may struggle with their mental health, are still culpable for their actions and understand the difference between right and wrong.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
More study on offenders is sorely needed, but what we do know about the profile of MVP offenders paints a complex and challenging picture from a mental health perspective, as there is a high rate of comorbidity, i.e. coexistence, with certain personality disorders, borderline narcissistic and histrionic, as well as high rates of severe depression.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The mental health of offenders is fascinating and worth exploring, so long as we never lose sight of the safety of the victims. When we discuss MBP offenders, we're not talking about overly anxious parents or those who are suffering from delusions. We're talking about parents who knowingly deceive others and put their children's well-being, and often their lives, at risk in doing so.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The cause was an 11th hour cease and desist I had received from my sister Megan, attempting to halt the publication of my novel and insisting I stop discussing my personal connection to one of the central themes of the book, Munchausen by proxy. Megan had always denied the abuse allegations, and now her lawyer was demanding that I retract my previous statements to the media and cancel my tour.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
These two unspeakable crimes of child sex abuse and medical child abuse form a sort of dyad in our cultural conception of child abuse. In cases of child sex abuse, the vast majority, 88%, of perpetrators are male. In cases of medical child abuse, an even more overwhelming majority, 96%, are women. There was a time when society believed child sex abuse to be extraordinarily rare.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
But with the myriad scandals surrounding organizations ranging from the Catholic Church to the Boy Scouts of America, we've undergone a reckoning that it is far from unusual, and that it is most frequently committed not by some menacing stranger, but by someone known to the victim. Medical child abuse is equally damaging and even more intimate, as most perpetrators are the mother of their victim.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The one person we're meant to be able to trust above all else. In both cases, abusers seek the cover of a trusted position in the community. Who is going to question that nice t-ball coach all the kids love? Who would be so cruel as to question a mom of a child with cancer? Yet millions of dollars are dedicated each year to the worthy cause of preventing child sex abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The resources dedicated to medical child abuse? There is some support given to individual hospitals, CASA, Court Appointed Special Advocate, and GAL, Guardian Ad Litem, programs, or community care-based organizations that certainly help. But in terms of organizations focused only on MBP, there is only one. Munchausen Support, the small 501c3 nonprofit that I founded in 2021.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In the Tarrant County Sheriff's Office, where Mike currently works, there are four officers and a sergeant assigned to the Human Trafficking Division. For medical child abuse, there's Mike, who works these cases in addition to a full load of physical and sexual abuse cases. And that's one more dedicated officer than anywhere else in the country.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Mike is the only detective in the United States who has made this a focused area of expertise. This is why he's tapped by child abuse professionals nationwide, as well as the FBI, for direction on these complex investigations.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
As author and actor Jeanette McCurdy said in an interview with New York Magazine about her 2022 memoir, I'm Glad My Mom Died, with dads, everybody can flippantly say, ugh, never mind him, you know how dads are. There's so little acknowledgement and so much fear around saying anything negative about moms.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Over the years, pop culture has made sporadic attempts to depict Munchausen by proxy on the big and small screen, beginning with The Sixth Sense, in which a little girl ghost portrayed by Misha Barton takes the young protagonist of the film, Cole, to her own funeral. There, her mother sits weeping like a martyr, despite having caused her child's death.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In 2019 alone, the year We Came Here to Forget was published, a spate of prestige television dramas depicted fictional MVP narratives. These ranged from HBO's Sharp Objects and Netflix's The Politician to The Act, which depicted the sensationalized story of Gypsy Rose Blanchard, a victim who conspired to murder her abusive mother.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
There was also an HBO documentary on the Blanchard case, the more responsibly made production, in my opinion, Mommy, Dead, and Dearest. In terms of real-life cases, few have captivated the public's imagination like Gypsy Rose's, with its unbelievable twists and turns and just plain bizarre characters and details.
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The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In essence, she wanted me to shut up and go away. I wrote the majority of We Came Here to Forget while I was pregnant with my daughter. I always knew I'd write about my sister eventually. Writers are prone to working out their traumas on the page. When motherhood came into the picture, it suddenly felt necessary to write about the tragedy that had devastated my own family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
When she was released from prison in December 2023, Gypsy Rose's social media followers ballooned to millions in a period of days. Gypsy Inc. was in full swing, with a book and a Lifetime series and a slate of press appearances already in place.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
This was an unprecedented moment of visibility for a survivor of Munchausen by proxy, but it was treated like an entertainment story, with Gypsy Rose as the Roxy heart of it all.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
For those of us who work with MBP in the professional sphere and those who've been personally impacted by it, this was both a welcome moment of interest and a precarious balancing act as we watched one traumatized young woman become a monolithic representation of survivors in the public's imagination.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Even more incredibly, Gypsy's release from prison came directly on the heels of the Maya Kowalski trial, in which the Kowalski family won an unprecedented quarter-billion-dollar verdict against Johns Hopkins All Children's Hospital. The hospital denies the charges and has filed an appeal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The Kowalski family alleged that the hospital had unjustly kept Maya from her mother due to suspicions of medical child abuse. Unlike the Gypsy Rose case, this time the public sympathy largely fell with the suspected perpetrator, Beata Kowalski, who died by suicide before an investigation could be completed, with the media positioning it as a case of medical kidnapping.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The innumerable chilling parallels between the two cases have been largely obfuscated in the popular imagination. But for anyone paying attention, there was a moment of whiplash as the public demanded to know why Gypsy's doctors didn't intervene to stop the abuse, even as those who did exactly that in the Maya Kowalski case now faced reputational ruin and fiscal punishment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Whether this confusion is a sign of our profound dissonance that some mothers are capable of doing unspeakable things to their children or the messy beginnings of a cultural reckoning on this type of abuse remains to be seen. In general, any media coverage on MBP tends to focus on the medical horror and to sensationalize the deranged nature of the perpetrators.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Viewers could be forgiven for walking away from these stories with the comforting assurance that this could never happen to anyone they know. Only a monster could be capable of such crimes, and of course, we'd readily recognize such a monster if we met her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The heavy Gothic horror of sharp objects and the outlandish portraits of Dede Blanchard and her eccentric southern relatives suggest this abuse would never happen in an ordinary family, that decades of trauma and dysfunction must precede such behavior. In fact, in most of the cases I've researched, the opposite is true.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The mother at fault appears not just normal, but especially warm and devoted to her children. And, as often as not, the family she comes from is as loving as one could hope for. Horrifyingly, MBP cases tend to make the news only after a child has died, as was the case with Olivia Gant and Garnet Spears.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Olivia Gant was killed in 2017 by her mother, who needlessly placed her in hospice care and removed her feeding tubes. Garnet Spears was poisoned by his mother with table salt, finally dying in 2014. But this abuse is believed by many to have one of the highest death rates of any form of child abuse, at around 9%.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
These gaps in both cultural awareness and media coverage leave us less room to look at how systems might be improved, to study cases where the child was successfully protected, to examine what the system looks like when it does work. Yet there is such a place, Tarrant County, Texas.
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The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Some book ideas take forever to coalesce, while others, like this one, arrive fully formed and feel so urgent that you ignore them at your own peril. My life was in a good place when I wrote the book, but you don't get over becoming estranged from your only sister, especially when that separation is due to something as terrifying as suspicions of child abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Detective Mike Weber is a big part of why children in this one county may currently be safer than anywhere else in the country. But he's not working in a vacuum. Several key people, some of whom you'll meet in this book, play a role in making Tarrant County a microcosm that can show us how common medical child abuse might really be, and can instruct us on how to fix it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The societal issues intertwined with Munchausen by proxy could hardly be more contentious than they are in this moment. I was holding my nine-day-old son when, in June 2022, the Supreme Court's Dobbs decision overturned the decades-old precedent set by Roe v. Wade. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
At best, it's a wound that changes over time, and just when you think it's closed, it splits right open again. For me, the experience of becoming a mother brought my history with my sister to the surface in a way that I was no more prepared for than anything else about new motherhood. Thank you so much for having me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
So she would have been the perfect person to ask about my dreadful morning sickness and all of the paranoias that accompany a first pregnancy. It would have given me an opportunity, increasingly rare as we grew into adulthood and our lives took different paths, to feel close to her again. She would have been so great on that call.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, please come see Mike and I at our launch events on Tuesday, February 4th and Thursday, February 6th, respectively. You can find all of that info on where to find us and the book in our show notes. And today I have something very special for you, which is an excerpt of the audiobook, which I am the narrator of.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
But she wasn't there on the other end of the line to take that call, just as she wasn't there to celebrate with me when I got my first book deal. She wasn't standing next to me on my wedding day. She wasn't holding my hand in the delivery room. Her absence has fundamentally altered the life I thought I would lead. I was sure we'd raise our kids together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I took for granted that she'd be there to help me cope as our parents age when they inevitably pass away. I imagined us having lunches together as old women, comparing notes on our grandkids. As it stands, I can't imagine she'll ever even meet my children, much less their children. Her absence has hardened into a permanent thing that feels like a death, only less complete.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
In July 2019, I hadn't seen my sister in almost a decade. And as the years had gone by, what once seemed unimaginable felt increasingly likely that I would never see her again. Until that rainy night of the book launch.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Thankfully, a dear friend, humorist Geraldine DeReuter, was moderating the event, so I didn't have to sit alone at the microphone after being rubbed raw by the emotions of the preceding days. As she finished introducing me, I smiled, trying to appear calm as my eyes scanned the room. This was my hometown event, so there were lots of familiar faces in the crowd.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
My parents and my husband and daughter were sitting in the front row, along with some other family members. One face in particular moved me so deeply that I almost lost my tenuous composure right away. Stephanie was my sister's best friend growing up, and a second big sister to me. We'd only recently reconnected, but she was there, heavily pregnant with her second child, sitting with her own mom.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Between these friends and the subtext of the book, it felt like my sister's ghost was hovering in the front row as well. The ghost of the sister who should have been there. For a moment, I let myself imagine her, somewhere on the edge of the store. All day, a small part of me had wondered whether she might try to disrupt the event. But when I didn't see her in the audience, relief washed over me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. Today is the day. After many years of work, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, my first ever nonfiction book that I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber is officially out in the world. You can buy it right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Most writers share an alternating fear and fantasy about our books drawing people out of the woodwork to see us triumphant in our success. Maybe the crowd will part and an old lover will try to win you back, or your high school bully will approach, chagrined and apologetic.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
When I launched my previous books, I confess there was some small part of me that hoped my sister might show up, full of pride that I'd accomplished what had always been my lifelong dream. But this was before I ever went public about her. On that night, I knew that wherever she was, she wasn't feeling anything close to pride.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Regardless of what she thought, I didn't write We Came Here to Forget to settle a score. I wrote it because I needed to. And the reason I went public about my own connection to Munchausen by proxy, also known as medical child abuse, wherein a parent or caretaker fabricates, exaggerates, or induces illness in their child, was that I wanted to authentically portray a family coping with its specter.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The media pays little attention to this topic, and when it does, it sensationalizes it. At the time of my book launch, I had never spoken to a single other person who'd navigated the bizarre, lonely waters of an investigation. Back when my family was imploding, it would have meant so much to me to talk to someone who could understand.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It would have helped to see the story reflected with empathy and dignity, rather than as grisly fodder for true crime drama. My third novel could be my chance to live that adage, write the book you want to read. I wanted to be that voice for someone else. A few days after my book event, I had lunch with Stephanie at a pub on Seattle's East Side.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
This is the first time I've ever read one of my own audiobooks, and it just feels really special on this one to get to go with you for this part of the book's journey. So without further ado, here is an exclusive excerpt from The Mother Next Door from Macmillan Audio. Enjoy! Introduction It was a rainy night in Seattle in July 2019.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Stephanie is so deeply entwined in my history that her voice feels familiar to me in the way a family member's does. More of my memories growing up include her than don't. It meant so much to me that she and her mom came to the event and that she read my book. I filled her in on the surrounding legal drama, eager to talk to someone else who'd known and loved my sister.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I was up there just waiting for her to burst in and disrupt the event. I finished, now able to laugh at my paranoia. Stephanie's eyes got big. "'There's something I have to tell you,' she said slowly. I didn't want to say anything the night of, but I went to the ladies' room right before the event started. She paused. Meg and I walked right by each other. I froze.
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The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
My sister had not just been a ghost in the room." I was instantly grateful I hadn't seen her and also deeply spooked that she'd been there watching, no doubt waiting for me to misstep, to say something that she and her lawyer could use against me. She could have been inches from my baby and husband, who would not have recognized her.
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The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Like everyone else who once knew Megan, every member of our family, each friend from her formerly tight-knit circle, Stephanie hasn't spoken to my sister in years. That night, the two women who'd been inseparable as girls didn't say a word as they brushed past each other. When I got home from lunch, I told my husband that Megan had been at the event, and I watched his face go white.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
He had never met my sister, yet she was an inescapable presence in our lives, looming large in her absence. In that moment, I could see in his expression that the horror story of my past had suddenly become real. That night marked the beginning of the next phase of my complicated 40-year journey with Megan. We'd been sisters, then we'd been strangers.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
And on this night, we'd morphed into something new, something I had been fighting to avoid, but which suddenly felt inevitable. Now, we were enemies. I first met Detective Mike Weber at a Munchausen by proxy, MBP, training in January 2020, mere weeks before the COVID-19 pandemic would make the idea of sitting in a room full of unmasked strangers in a hotel ballroom all day unimaginable.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I was attending the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's annual conference in San Diego at the invitation of Dr. Mark Feldman, an author, professor, and psychiatrist who is one of the world's foremost experts on Munchausen by proxy and other factitious disorders in the world.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
A quick search of his name produces hundreds of interviews with him on the subject as well as his significant contributions to the literature, including four books and innumerable research papers. He and I had been introduced by journalist Devorah Myers after she'd interviewed both of us for her excellent Longreads piece, The Disease of Deceit, about a friend who'd faked having cancer.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Mark and I became fast friends and began pairing up on interviews. He asked me to come to San Diego to meet with APSAC's MBP committee, a cross-disciplinary group of child abuse professionals who represent the only cohesive effort to combat a form of abuse so taboo and misunderstood that even many of the most hardened social workers, detectives, and psychologists want nothing to do with it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
By the time I met with the committee, I was an experienced public speaker. Yet as I paced my hotel room, inhaling the ocean breeze and trying to find serenity in the waves that crashed just beyond the line of palm trees, I was nervous. Previous attempts to tell this story hadn't gone well, and I didn't know what to expect from the committee.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
The global pandemic that would reshape life as we knew it was still several months in the future, but my life was in its own dramatic state of flux. I was a first-time mom trying to navigate the exhausting back and forth of being a working parent. My daughter, Fiona, was eight months old and I was launching my third novel, We Came Here to Forget, at one of my favorite local bookstores.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I wasn't sure how receptive a group so packed with advanced degrees and professional accolades would be to a novelist whose sole qualification in the arena was her own sad story. In the hotel's conference room, I was immediately met with warmth and appreciation as the group gathered around the big table with hotel pastries and hot coffee.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It felt like a meeting of old friends more than stuffy academics. In the rare instances when I tried to explain to someone what had happened in my family, I had been met with dropped jaws, wan faces, and occasionally tears. I had never encountered nodding heads and knowing looks.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It was the first time I understood that what I'd witnessed in my family was not a bizarre outlier but part of an eerily consistent pattern of behavior. I'd been utterly alone with this story for almost a decade. Then, all at once, I wasn't.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
This feeling deepened the next day as I sat in the front row listening to Mike Weber and Sheriff Bill Weyburn unpack the case of Brittany Phillips, which we'll cover in this audiobook, for a rapt audience. I'm not a religious person, but sitting in that nondescript hotel ballroom, I was overcome by the powerful sensation that I was exactly where I was supposed to be.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
Bill Weyburn and Mike Weber are straight out of central casting. Whatever comes to your mind when you think Texas Sheriff, Bill embodies it. He stands a towering six feet four, not counting the additional inches of his signature 10-gallon hat, and sports a glorious mustache and a gleaming belt buckle.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I could imagine him being intimidating under the right circumstances, likely a job requirement, but he also exudes warmth. When I first introduced myself after his presentation, I asked if I could give him a hug and found myself fighting tears. Bill was the first person I'd ever met who'd had a case of Munchausen by proxy in his family. His story had left very few dry eyes in that crowd.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
His was also the first story that gave me any hope. Mike hadn't been present at the committee meeting, but I knew he was a member, and Dr. Feldman has spoken highly of him. Tall, with a flat-top haircut, in a no-nonsense suit and tie, Mike was an endearing combination of tough and humble.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I complimented him on his presentation, and his response was an aw shucks, just doing my job mumble that I've come to expect from him, and that belies the truly remarkable work he's done over the course of his career. I quickly discovered that Mike has an extraordinary capacity to run headlong into the hornet's nest of cases that make other seasoned detectives run for the hills.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I told him I was an author, and he mentioned, bashfully, that people were always telling him he should write a book. He'd structure it around the three cases that had stuck with him the most, the ones that gave him a full understanding of the complex issue he'd spent the last several hours educating the audience about. You should, I said, and meant it. Oh, I don't know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
I explained to Mike that I'd worked in book publishing for almost 20 years, and a great many people had told me their book ideas. They're almost never good, I emphasized, but this one is good. Mike's serious detective exterior cracked as he let out a full belly laugh.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
By the time I met him, Mike had worked on approximately 30 medical child abuse cases and secured more convictions than anyone else in the country by leagues. But these three women's cases had made such a deep impression on him that they forever shaped his understanding of this abuse. Hope Ybarra, Brittany Phillips, and Mary Welch.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
It tells of an Olympic skier whose relationships and career are turned upside down by a family catastrophe. Book publications, with their touring demands, media pushes, endless social media shilling, and alternating waves of excitement and dread, are always draining. But this one was like nothing I'd been through before.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
These were the ones that introduced him to what Munchausen by proxy could look like. how it could masquerade as love, how it could manifest online, and how a case could fall apart in the hands of the wrong official, no matter how strong the evidence. Hope Ybarra was Mike's first full investigation into medical child abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy
He'd never seen anything like her, a con artist so committed to her version of reality that it went on for the better part of a decade before anyone caught on. The facts of the case were so chilling that he realized nothing was off the table when it came to these types of offenders.
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S05 Ep05: The Breaking Point
She writes, Some new neurological, visual, and also endocrine issues have come up in the last few months, and there is worry among the team at Seattle Children's for a brain mass. She was recently diagnosed with central precocious puberty. Yes, she is in full-blown puberty, which is why she has grown so exponentially and is maturing physically and looks like a teenager.
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It's clear from looking at Sophie's social media from this time and reading her journal entries, how much being the parent of a child with AHC has become integral to her identity. There's a telling journal entry which appears to have been written three days before Sophie's initial consultation with Dr. Muhammad Makati at the Duke AHC clinic.
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She and C made the trek to North Carolina after receiving a provisional diagnosis from Mary Bridge Hospital around the time that C turned three. In her journal, Sophie opines on the fact that this prospective new diagnosis could actually be great material for her second book. Quote, Last night, Lord, I mapped out what could be another book. My one in a million.
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Jesus, this feels possible to me, even exciting. It feels like something I could get right to work on as it feels, quote, matter of fact. I wonder, is this you? Could this be an open door you are putting before me? My one in a million road. I choose it over and over again, never choosing AHC, but choosing to hold my hands open to walk through the fire, knowing the fruit is worth it.
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These private reflections are so disquieting because they feel so removed from C as a human. It seems to be all about Sophie.
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so hard when he said it because i know exactly what he's saying when he says it he said i don't care if the woman tells you that the sky is blue you need to walk outside and look up we used to say that exact thing about my sister michael now of course most adoptive parents do feel very real bonds for their children and as detective lee alludes to here some biological parents sadly do not
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But the adoption just adds another layer to this picture. And there was something pathological in and of itself about Sophie's efforts to keep adopting kids. There were the twins she mentioned in her memoir and a reported third sister of the girls from Zambia. And then there were two additional adoptions that Sophie actually applied for that coincided with the police investigation.
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There's an element here that's actually not in the documentation that we sent you, but we've been able to confirm happened in this case. During this process, while she was being investigated, Sophie was attempting to adopt two other children. She was attempting to adopt a child from Ghana with AIDS and a child from China who had Down syndrome.
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And fortunately, neither of those adoptions went through. But I think with the sort of the escalating on one child in the process of trying to bring two other already very, very vulnerable children into the home, that just strikes me as such a scary situation.
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And the thinking right now is that there may be a brain tumor which is causing that. By the following month, Sophie would pull C out of school completely, saying that even virtual schooling was too much for her daughter to bear with her health.
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We also wondered what Detective Lee made of Sophie's police interview and Sophie's claims that she understood her daughter's health better than the doctors.
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On top of everything happening with COVID, Seattle, like many major cities, had large protests and civil actions around the Black Lives Matter movement, which saw a swell in support following the death of George Floyd in the summer of 2020. there was a new scrutiny on the deep systemic racism that permeates every institution in America. And this was on Sophie's radar as well.
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Sophie's messages to friends and providers captured in the police reports are full of lengthy, complicated explanations of C's health. And this is how Sophie reveals the AHC information to the detectives. This following a long explanation of getting the G-tube placed.
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Immediately following this police interview on March 17th, 2021, Sophie is served with a residential search warrant and C and M are placed in productive custody. C is then admitted to Seattle Children's for observation and M is placed in foster care for a brief time before being released to the custody of her aunt and grandmother, who flew out from Michigan to be with the family.
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In the meantime, the detectives had the unenviable job of combing through the piles of medical records C had amassed in her short life. Within these records, some of C's issues, such as the precocious puberty concerns or the alleged diagnoses of autism and cerebral palsy that Sophie mentioned in other places, are unrelated to her age C diagnosis.
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All of the most serious health complications, the days-long episodes of paralysis, the severe gastrointestinal issues that required multiple surgeries, these all hinged on C's diagnosis of alternating hemiplegia of childhood, which Sophie claimed that the doctors at Children's just didn't understand because it was so rare.
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The investigation Sophie is referring to followed the resignation of a beloved Black doctor named Ben Danielson, who was the director of a clinic that served mostly Black and brown families in Seattle.
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We wanted to understand AHC better too, so we reached out to Dr. McCotty from Duke for an interview, but he declined. Our researcher, Aaron, found another doctor who is also a well-regarded expert who originally agreed to an interview, but then, somewhat mysteriously, pulled out. Because of the rarity of this diagnosis, there are only a handful of experts on it in the country.
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Thankfully, our third attempt turned out to be the charm. Summer is coming. The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still raining gross, which it can truly be any time of year. And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill.
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And if you too want to save your money for patio margaritas and vacations, you've got to ditch your overpriced wireless and hop on Mint Mobile for three months of premium wireless service for $15 a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.
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You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number with you, along with all of your existing contacts. The coverage and quality are top-notch, and you cannot beat the price. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at mintmobile.com slash believeme. That's mintmobile.com slash believeme.
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Danielson resigned in protest in November 2020, saying that Seattle Children's wasn't upholding its commitment to racial equity in a variety of ways, pointing to the lack of translation services and the frequency with which security was called on people of color. This led to an internal investigation and the firing of at least one person in senior leadership.
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And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required. Equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something.
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First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar. Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me, but scheduling appointments with dentists, doctors, therapists can be a real hurdle, which is why I lean on ZocDoc for help.
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ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high-quality in-network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. You can book in-network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty, from mental health to dental health, primary care, and more.
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You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose the time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. So no phone tech.
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So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. ZocDoc.com slash nobody. You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes. And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
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Dr. Zupontz has an extensive background in clinical and research work around AHC and is a co-author on one of the most significant studies on the condition, along with Dr. Makati from Duke. Dr. Zupontz started her work with AHC over 30 years ago. So could you tell us a little bit about what this disorder is and what are the signs and symptoms?
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It seems like this is a relatively newly discovered diagnosis, right? If you were sort of talking about back in the 1980s when you first came across it.
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Seattle has a reputation for being progressive, but the truth is far more complicated. While you're likely to see plenty of Black Lives Matter signs driving around town, the city has a shameful history of redlining, school segregation, and, well, just all of the things that plague every city in America. And of course, how this all intersects with medicine is especially complex.
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For parents of children with this diagnosis, it can be extremely difficult to get to the bottom of, and it's often mistaken for something else.
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C had been prescribed diazepam, which is a benzodiazepine, as well as a medication called baclofen and a number of others. Each individual child...
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As 2019 comes to a close, Em, now 10 years old, is keeping up with her intensive gymnastics program, all while Sophie is taking C back and forth between Seattle Children's and Duke Medical Center in North Carolina. And her condition, according to this note in Sophie's phone, is dire. Quote,
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The medical system is extremely fraught for Black Americans, who get worse care overall and who died at much higher rates during the pandemic. This was the background in which Sophie's building tension with Seattle Children's Hospital was playing out.
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AHC sounds like a disorder that, especially if it's severe, could make daily life extremely challenging for a child. The road to an AHC diagnosis can often be lengthy for families. But luckily, with advances in medicine and science, the process has gotten a bit more precise. Here is Dr. Zupontz again.
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But the ways in which systemic racism in medicine affect Black parents of Black children is not the same as how it plays out for white parents of Black children. as we discussed with our expert on transracial adoption, Chad Golder Sojourner.
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hemisphere slowing see underwent a number of rounds of eeg testing both at the hospital and at home and sophie tells the police in her interview that c's last eeg recording showed slowing in her brain slowing in her brain i was asking the provider like what's the best therapy or treatment for that and he actually said therapeutic movement and i was like i could have told you that
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Like many disorders, AHC is diagnosed using a variety of tools. EEGs, as Dr. Zupans mentions here, genetic testing, and crucially, parent reports.
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According to Sophie, the main problem was that Seattle Children's didn't understand AHC, and so they didn't see what she saw.
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this sort of diagnostic odyssey that many parents go on trying to get to the bottom of this. And I wonder if you could sort of tell us what that often looks like and also sort of, yeah, establishing like what are the things that they get misdiagnosed with? Sounds like epilepsy is maybe a common one or sort of they get put in a like question mark rare neurological disorder bucket.
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Chad is the Black adopted son of white parents and chronicles his own childhood medical odyssey in his one-man show, Sitting in Circles with Rich White Girls, Memoirs of a Bulimic Black Boy.
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These episodes, if they're captured on imaging, look very different than epileptic seizures. And it would be also partly like the parent report of they're not having a seizure preceding the spell of weakness. It's just the spell of weakness is happening sort of spontaneously. Yeah.
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There is a gene marker for AHC, but there's some complexity around this piece.
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If you didn't track all that, the bottom line is genetic testing is extremely complicated. According to police reports, Dr. Mohammad Makati from Duke University Medical Center stated that C's AHC diagnosis was clinical. Here is a quote from that piece of the report. Dr. Makati advised that CH does not have the genetic mutation that specifically indicates AHC.
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The clinical diagnosis is based upon the reports given only by CH's mother. The absence of the genetic marker for AHC is something that Sophie acknowledges in her interview with the police, though she appears to frame this as something that makes her daughter's illness even more rare and special.
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In a journal entry, Sophie recounts reaching out to a board member of the foundation dedicated to curing HC about her daughter C's genetic testing, which had come back as likely benign. She tells him that C's HC diagnosis is nonetheless not up for debate and declares that C might lead to a breakthrough in the understanding of the disease itself, which she seems pretty jazzed about.
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She writes, quote, Lord, could this be my harvest? My compassion leads to miracles. One in a million, girl, unlock a scientific breakthrough. Wow, Lord, wow. Do it, Lord, do it. According to the research on AHC, 20% of patients don't have the genetic marker, which makes getting an accurate medical history all the more important.
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Because like they're looking at her as like, oh, not only is she a white mom, she's a white mom who did such a good thing.
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So I think this actually, this is a nice time to kind of bring it back around to this kind of sense I have always in talking to doctors, which I love talking to doctors, you know, of medicine really being both an art and a science, right? Like of really that human piece of medicine. You know, I think so often people think about like, oh, technology, and it's so exciting.
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You've seen those things come a long way, especially with these kind of neurological things, I'm sure. And then at the end of the day, like there still is just the... Doctor sitting in a room talking to a patient or talking to a parent and you mentioned, you know, how important getting that history from a parent.
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So it sounds like AHC, much as most things, is still very much about those conversations and that history and the observations of the parent.
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Like a sort of halo effect a little bit. Interestingly, during this time, Sophie leaves Pursuit Northwest, the church that had raised thousands of dollars for her in a single day to help purchase a wheelchair-accessible van and which, by all accounts, had been very supportive of her family.
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As is so often the case, the story of the child's health was the most important factor in determining her diagnosis. We know a lot about the story Sophie was telling about her daughter's AHC, that it was severe and so limiting that she couldn't participate in many regular activities, that she couldn't even attend school, that she would likely die very young. But what was the truth? Next time.
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It seems to me that if an episode was going on that long, that there would be a hospitalization during that period.
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Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact-checking by Erin Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
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Special thank you this week to Detective Michael Lee and Dr. Mary Zupontz. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
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The purported reason for her departure is that she was unhappy with Pursuit's response to the murder of George Floyd in the summer of 2020 and said that she no longer felt that the church was a safe place for her Black children. I don't know what the church's response was in the summer of 2020, so I don't have much of an opinion on it.
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Their Facebook page from June of 2020 includes a post saying, Black lives matter to Jesus. Will they matter to us? As well as a post celebrating Juneteenth. Now, a couple of Facebook posts don't tell us that much.
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There's also no reason to believe that an institution with this church's very evident political leanings, again, leanings that Sophie, by all accounts, shared, would have some kind of full-throated support for the Black Lives Matter movement. I suspect that there may have been another reason Sophie might have wanted to distance herself from the people who she'd been close to at church.
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Her lies about C's health were about to come completely undone. Prior to the pandemic, back in mid-2019, fears that something was very wrong in the Hartman household began to ratchet up, and the doctors at Seattle Children's Hospital began to track their concerns, making an initial report to the Department of Children and Families, citing, quote,
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a pattern of parental requests for increasingly invasive procedures based upon undocumented signs and symptoms reported by the parent. In a journal entry from this time, Sophie recounts her frustrations with Seattle Children's, writing, No matter if I advocate to my death in this very room, no one is going to listen well enough to change the approach to how we treat her.
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
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People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.
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This AHC and severe gastroparesis and autonomic dysfunction and intestinal dismobility is actually from the darkest pit in hell. But our citizenship is in heaven. So we rejoice knowing this won't be her forever. Then the pandemic hits.
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Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here...
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you should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content.
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In February of 2021, as the pandemic reaches its year mark, the Seattle Children's Child Abuse Team makes an official report to the Department of Children, Youth, and Families, outlining significant findings of medical child abuse of Sophie's daughter, C. On February 18th, Detective O'Rourke from the Renton Police Department is assigned to the case. And in May, Sophie is charged.
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Olivia noted the high stakes of reporting on a case like this.
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And the warrant was just the tip of the iceberg. The evidence collection included hours and hours of interviews, medical records and timelines from the hospital, and journal entries written by Sophie that were collected during a search of her home, several of which were excerpted in the investigative summary.
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This entry reads, When it comes to suffering, I am a compulsive liar slash exaggerator. To be cared for means to have significance. Have to have it the hardest for it to be worthy. I have looked through documentation for many medical child abuse investigations at this point in my career, and I have never seen anything like what's in this case file.
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The investigative summary alone, which is the detective's narrative of the investigation, is more than 250 pages long, and it reveals some of the most disturbing material I've seen. In particular, the narrative around C's impending death, which is just everywhere in the lead-up to this investigation.
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Many people recall Sophie describing C as terminal and making comments such as, As the family becomes increasingly isolated during the pandemic, this fixation on C's death seems to grow. In January of 2021, Sophie imagines herself in the throes of grief over her daughter's death, writing to a friend, quote,
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was thinking, if C died, I would call Cassie and make her come sleep in my bed with me while I cry my life away. Such is the life of a medical mama, I suppose. The forensic examinations of Sophie's devices reveal that during this time, Sophie was searching for songs for sick kids and funeral songs. Chillingly, Sophie had deleted this search history.
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These police records were overwhelming, so we brought in an expert to help us understand what we were looking at.
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In September of 2020, C is six years old and, like children everywhere during the pandemic, switches to virtual learning when the school locks down. A month into that school year, in October of 2020, Sophie writes a letter to C's school, which has a robust program for special needs students, explaining C's worsening condition.
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As Detective Lee looked through the documentation in this case, Sophie's pursuit of the escalating feeding interventions struck him.
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It's noted in the records that C knew a lot of medical terminology, and Sophie appears to have made no secret of her dire predictions for her daughter. In December of 2019, Sophie writes a letter to one of C's equine therapists, who Sophie seems to have grown especially close with. Sophie describes a recent trip with C where she had many episodes, including some nearly full-day episodes.
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She writes, quote, We often talk about how someday in heaven she will have a new body and no more episodes. She often says she just wants to go there and not have this body anymore. She always says she just wants to go where Jesus is.
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To prove that the child is actually sick, right?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I think it does and has been in this case, you know, labeled as factitious disorder behavior. This is one of the diagnoses that the lawsuit says that HHSA, which is the Child Protective Services in California and Reedy Children's gave her, which was conversion disorder, factitious disorder behavior.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
We will have one more episode on this case next week, and then season six is coming June 19th. And just a reminder that if you want to listen to the whole thing on June 19th, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Patreon and we will have the whole thing ready for you to binge on that date.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So somatic symptom disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, and anxiety disorder, and we can kind of unpack those a bit further, but just to sort of call out this factitious disorder, right? So factitious disorder imposed on self, that's when someone fabricates, exaggerates, or induces illness in themselves for the purposes of attention.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And I think that this diagnosis when applied to someone who we suspect is a victim is not quite right. I understand why it's used because it's naming the behavior.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
The other thing that we know about a lot of perpetrators is that they began these, I mean, thinking back on my sister, thinking about a lot of the people where we've talked to their family members, a lot of times these behaviors do start as teenagers. And in a situation that's not an abuse situation, a parent is very concerned by those behaviors and doesn't co-sign that behavior, you know?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And in this case, the dynamics appear from what we know to be quite a lot more complicated. And I think in a case where you're suspecting that that parent is abusive, that is very different because if a child is participating in it, it's because they've been co-opted by the parent, not because they're necessarily intentionally
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Doing it in the way that we would think of someone doing this just of their own accord. Can you kind of help us tease that out a little bit?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I was very struck by some of these diagnoses because the family is saying that the diagnosis this child has, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, POTS, and CRPS, all very real diagnoses that can be very complex and difficult to get to the frequent flyers in these cases, it has to be said. And we have heard actually from so many people.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
We're going to follow up on this and hear some of these stories coming up, but I've heard from so many listeners that suffer from a couple of those conditions, but in particular, Ehlers-Danlos and Potts, who have had some real difficulties with doctors and also are very aware, and seemingly there are people in those communities that are very aware of
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I wanted to take a moment and thank you for all of the feedback on these episodes about Radies and let you know that we hear you. Nobody Should Believe Me is an independent production and it's an ambitious one. So we always appreciate feedback from our very smart listeners. Very thoughtful listeners.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
of the way that these diagnoses have been co-opted by people engaging in factitious disorder behaviors or in Munchausen by proxy behaviors, which is just such a mess and so horrible for the people that are suffering from those conditions genuinely.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And so it was very striking to me, though, that you have these sort of two sides saying that, okay, that's what the parents in this lawsuit are saying. And then on the other side, you have this conversion disorder, factitious disorder, somatic symptom disorder, and then these two mental health diagnoses of post-traumatic stress disorder and anxiety disorder. That certainly, yes, yes, please.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yes, thank you for saying that. The perennial reminder that we always put that the presence of a genuine diagnosis does not mean the absence of abuse. Exaggeration, fabrication, those things can all come up. Interestingly, as opposed to the Maya Kowalski case, where once we had really done all of the research, that diagnosis of CRPS appeared to be very much fabricated, right?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
She had gone to three world-class hospitals that had not given her that diagnosis. So that very much appeared to be a fabrication. In this case, I'm not so sure because this was actually diagnosed by a proper hospital and it does appear to fit the diagnosis of CRPS, right? Stemming from an initial injury, et cetera.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So, and it's not really as much the focus of this, more about the Ehlers-Danlos and POTS. But yeah, that's just to say that like things happen to children all the time. People have medical stuff. It does not negate abuse. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm very glad you pointed that out.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Um, but so this list of diagnoses that we get sort of from the other side of what the hospital and HHSA is saying, I mean, this really, this looks very recognizable to me. Right. And I think that, um, this conversion disorder, do you happen to know the difference between conversion disorder and somatic symptom disorder?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Cause I, I actually realized I don't, those, those feel pretty interchangeable to me, but, um, yeah, I, I think they have been used pretty interchangeably, you know, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
We're going to be back after season six with some additional coverage on this case as we get more information and we're going to talk to an expert in POTS and EDS to get a clearer picture of the diagnoses that are central to this case. We are also hoping to get the lawyers from this case on, but that can be complicated when there is ongoing litigation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah, which that actually makes sense that I sort of have started to wonder if our entire population of victims and survivors doesn't suffer from some form of conversion disorder and or somatic symptom disorder because something that we hear from survivors all the time
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
is that once they had the revelation of abuse, that it took them quite a long time to figure out what was real about their health and what wasn't.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And, you know, I've heard from, you know, like Joe talks about, who's a survivor that's been on the show a number of times and is doing a lot of work in the advocacy space, you know, talked about how up until a couple of years ago, they thought they had asthma. And it turns out they don't. And, you know, it just really, it's so sad how confused it makes victims and survivors about their own bodies.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Right now I'm in the midst of a little makeover moment. I just had a birthday in April and my second baby somehow is almost three, not a baby anymore. And one of the things I did for myself was replace all of my under things with stuff from Skims, which has become my go-to for intimates and shapewear. I especially love their Fits Everybody collection, which I am wearing right now.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I was wearing Skims before they became a sponsor and I've really come to rely on their high-waisted brief for under dresses and trousers. It is so comfortable and it looks and feels like it basically disappears the moment that you put it on. Another recent favorite discovery is their triangle bralette, which is truly the comfiest bra ever and does not give you the dreaded uniboob.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
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And after you place your order, be sure to let them know that I sent you. You can select podcast in the survey section. And be sure to select my show, Nobody Should Believe Me, in the drop-down menu that follows. Shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So I want to talk about this conspiracy element of this lawsuit, where I feel like this element is present in every one of these lawsuits that we've talked about. That's the thing it really leans on, right, when we talked about Sophie Hartman's lawsuit, my sister's various attempts at lawsuits. Certainly the Kowalski v. Johns Hopkins lawsuit.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
There's this central idea that a bunch of people from the hospital are collaborating in this conspiracy to take the child away from the parent forever. for question mark reasons. This is particularly elaborate in this lawsuit where it's saying more than two dozen people, both named and unnamed, so they do this medical dose one through 10, so
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
But please rest assured, we will have a knowledgeable lawyer on here to discuss the legal complexities of this case because they are legion. If you have specific questions or comments about this case or want to share your own experiences with POTS and EDS, as a number of you have done, please do so.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
10 additional people at the hospital that we don't get named um but you know it's like more than two dozen people from the hospital hhsa and even this residential treatment center that eventually gets involved in this thing are all conspiring against dana gaske and bill meyer the parents um to remove custody of this one teenage girl from these two people um
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Number one, do we know of any situation where anything like this, like on this level of people, has ever happened?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah, I know. It's really, I will tell you, especially because we have such limited information about what happened in this case. I'm trying to stay somewhat even-handed in the way that I present this, and yet... I try to, too, but... But this is nuts! I mean, you cannot pretend this is not nuts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
It's like, the allegation here, when you strip out all of the... And again, that's why I kind of made that point about the emotionally charged language, because I think that that's meant as a distraction so that we don't look at the actual charge that's being made. And it's been effective, right? Because the media coverage, a lot of it is about, like...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
These parents were secretly surveilled and this whole thing. They had their child ripped away and they were given procedures without her consent. And you're like, you are being told a sliver of the story. Do you know what this lawsuit is saying happened here?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
They're saying that all of these people got together across a period of more than a year and fabricated evidence and knowingly took false reports to the court and coordinated with each other. Why? They give no reason. I mean, and like actually the reasons that they give are upside down reasons.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
They say, oh, this was to cover up for their own incompetence and their own unlawful behavior because they're saying that because they conducted this video surveillance without obtaining a warrant that that was against the law. It's not, to be clear. Now, I think the point of this lawsuit is to challenge some of those laws around video surveillance and parents' rights and some other things. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
But it is not against the law. I mean, this covert video surveillance is legal. And, you know, every hospital has kind of different policy on it. But they're saying to cover up for their incompetence, to cover up for the fact that they were wrong about this child's diagnoses, you know, to cover for their reputation.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
The very best way to make sure we get this feedback is to send us an email or voice memo to hello at nobody should believe me dot com. But we also monitor comments on Spotify and socials if you want to leave them there. Thank you so much for listening and for being so engaged with this show. I could not keep making it without you. Now, here's my conversation with the wonderful Dr. Mary Sanders.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
They're also making this broader claim that these are just deep systemic issues that you know, pervade these various agents, you know, the hospital and HHSA, that's part of their, I can't remember the name for it, but there's like a specific allegation that, oh, these are systemic issues that come from the way these organizations operate on a whole, not just the specific case.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And that is so wild to just like, like, I think people just need to sit with that for a minute and just be like, why would a group of pediatricians do this? Why would they do the time, the risk?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
It's a wild allegation. And I think you really need to put a conspiracy theory lens on it, right? Of like, okay, so you're saying all of these people coordinated. So it's like, it's an implausible number of people to coordinate.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I mean, you can't get people to coordinate on anything. Like, hello, has anyone else done a group project? Like, you can't get this many people to coordinate on something for like regular reasons, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I mean, one of the reasons that sometimes people react to these lawsuits in such an emotional way and why they make sense to people is because people have had terrible experiences with the healthcare system, right? But I think you need to think about what is bad about the healthcare system, right? It's not these things. It's not a bunch of doctors conspiring to snatch children away.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
It's actually because a lot of times care is not coordinated the way that it should be and it's fractured and you get these sort of like, you know, potholes everywhere. And like, it's exactly the opposite. And in terms of the reputational thing, If I'm a doctor who wants to keep myself out of court and out of the media and my reputation squeaky clean, I'm not reporting abuse.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And we know that that's happening. I mean, I have had, Mary, so many people, whenever I'm doing something where there's medical professionals there or even just if I'm doing something out like Book Event or somewhere out in the world, like I have had many medical professionals pull me aside and tell me that they attempted to report abuse and risk management told them not to.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So that is not, yeah, which is bad. I mean, we are suffering from the opposite problem, but it's like the risky position always, I can't, tell me if you can find an argument otherwise, but the risky position always is to report. That's the thing that's going to end up damaging your reputation. That's the thing that's going to potentially make you the villain of a Netflix film.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
That's the thing that's going to potentially just like drag you through a lengthy lawsuit, right? Yeah.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
It makes no sense. It makes no sense.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah. And I mean, again, we hope, we hope doctors report. You know, you look at cases like the Olivia Gant case in Colorado where the family members ultimately sued that hospital because they had suspicions and there was disagreement amongst the team and it eventually got shut down and they didn't report and that child died. And, you know, that is a tragedy.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And I think by and large, when I have talked to, you know, both people on the medical side and people on the child protection side, so, you know, people who work for HHSA or CPS or, you know, whatever it's referred to in your state, they all recognize that, you know, to a person from who I've talked to, they all recognize that when you separate a child from their parents, that's a tragedy, even if it needs to happen.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I don't know anybody that relishes tragedy. doing that. Everyone recognizes that that is harming the child also, right? It may be necessary, but it is not something that people take lightly. And I feel like I'm a broken record with this one, but I also just always want to point out, this is the children's hospital that had a child abuse pediatrician She is named in this lawsuit.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Hi, Mary. Hi, how are you? I'm good. Thank you so much for being with us yet again. You are a frequent contributor to Nobody Should Believe Me, a friend of the show, I would say. For those listeners who have not met you before, can you tell us who you are and what you do, how you come to this work? Sure.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
She has made a centerpiece of this lawsuit. Child abuse pediatricians find abuse in less than 50% of the cases they evaluate, and they are less likely to have positive findings of abuse than their less well-trained colleagues because they are better trained. They've been made into this absolute scapegoat and, you know, boogeyman in this whole system. But they are not.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
They are doctors who do a medical evaluation. Truly cannot say that enough. So one of the really explosive claims in addition to, you know, that really is a continuation of this conspiracy claim. is what comes up in this first amended complaint to this lawsuit. So this lawsuit, like many, it's in its third amended complaint.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
In this case, the lawsuit of the parents and Madison herself have now been combined in the first amended to complaint in this lawsuit. So not the original lawsuit. The parents originally filed this lawsuit while things were still sort of actively happening and while the child was still underage. So this was not in their original complaint. This is in the amended complaint.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
They make these, to me, just explosive allegations about the hospital's conduct. And they mention this element, and we don't get a lot of information about the substance of this disclosure, but they bring in this element that they are alleging that the hospital staff—
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
implanted false memories of sexual assault in Madison that then led her to, if I'm following their logic, believe that she had been sexually abused by her parents and led to her attempting suicide in order to not be reunited with them. Because the judge originally, after looking at the Munchausen by proxy, you know, reports originally returned custody of Madison to her parents.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And then, you know, not long after that, she attempted suicide and she wrote a note that said that she would rather die than return to her parents. And, you know, we can glean from this lawsuit that at some point, again, we don't know when, we don't know what the exact details of this were, but that she had made a disclosure to the hospital that she was being sexually abused. by her parents.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So I want to just unpack this piece by piece, especially in context of this concept of implanting false memories of abuse. So can you help us understand, you know, and just give us some context of this, the so-called memory wars and the 1990s and kind of this whole idea of, you know, psychiatrists or psychologists implanting a false memory?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah, and can you actually walk us through the McMartin trial? Because I think that is probably where I think this is maybe the best known, this concept.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah. And this is part of the satanic panic, right?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Well, you are an incredible thinker, writer, speaker on this topic, and you are just a personal mentor of mine. So I always love having you on the show. Thank you.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah. So more of a, almost like an investigation, like, and, or even, you know, we talked to a lot of survivors about getting their medical records, like that kind of thing.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So it's interesting what you said about sort of this time period, right, that she's making a disclosure. We can glean that she made a disclosure about ongoing abuse. And in these situations, like the ones that came up in the satanic panic and those trials and even in this other case that you were talking about, it sounds like that was more like a false memory, right?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Not a memory that somehow, like, it doesn't sound like it'd be very viable to implant a memory that spans four years of someone's life that just happened.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, I think to call this claim suspicious is probably too light of a word.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I think so. And I mean, I will tell you, so a couple of reflections I had had about this. I think the reason, you know, the reason that this didn't, that this wasn't listed in the original complaint and that it got added, my suspicion, my suspicion is because if you hear this story OK, so you have this child who is being, you know, the hospital suspects she's being abused.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
They present evidence to the court and then the court, you know, unfortunately, which is, again, you know, something that we know really well, but then maybe people don't know as much that the courts do not, by and large, have a strong understanding of Munchausen by proxy abuse. There is this idea put forth by lawsuits like this that.
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it's just so easy for them to make up claims of abuse because the courts will believe them every time. And I'm like, well, you're not watching the same case as I'm watching. Because what we know is that judges frequently do not consider the opinions of doctors or they will weigh the opinions of like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
you know, paid consultants that have not treated the child the same as they will weigh, you know, opinions of doctors who are treating the child and who are much better, you know, much more trained. So that is just not an assumption that you can make that the courts are going to take what doctors have to say seriously. That really depends on the judge. And I think I can
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pretty confidently say by and large that more often they don't take this abuse seriously than that they do. We don't have the full copy of the judge's order, but a couple of the quotes that were included leads me to believe that he maybe has some strong biases in the plaintiff's corner. But he does say that this covert video surveillance was a horrible invasion of privacy.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So I think he then maybe has some different ideas about what about privacy in hospital settings than you or I do. Like maybe they really did. Maybe their rights were violated. Maybe this family did get treated badly. Maybe there are some systemic problems here. If you then hear this next chapter of what happened and said, okay, after custody was returned to the parents,
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Oh, Mary, you're going to give me all teary right at the top of our conversation. Just a little love fest to start us off. It was nice.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
This child, who had also made a disclosure to the hospital staff that she was being sexually abused, then attempted suicide and left a note that said, I would rather die than be returned to my parents. Whether or not you think the Munchausen by proxy allegations were true, most people, I would guess, are going to say, wow, okay, something awful is happening in that house that is clearly not a safe
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
home for that child if she is attempting suicide and saying she would rather die than return to her parents. That's a pretty tough thing to get past. And so I think my guess is that this is an attempt to get ahead of that and say, oh, actually, this whole series of events was just a continuation of the conspiracy of this doctor. So not only Did they falsify evidence of munchausen by proxy abuse?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
They I guess what they're insinuating happened is that they brought in a psychology team to work on this child and make her believe that she'd been sexually abused for a period of four years by her parents. That's what they're saying happened. That's wild, beyond wild. I mean, we've just gotten a few levels deeper into the conspiracy theory.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
You know, and it's so interesting when you talk about your, you know, the duration of your career and how long you've been in this field and mentioning that 1974 was the beginning of mandatory reporting laws, because I think something that's very
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And one of the hallmarks of a conspiracy theory is that the narrative evolves to encompass any new information so that anything that you throw out as evidence, they can just say, yep, look, the conspiracy is even bigger than what we thought. And that might sound hyperbolic, but I mean, that really is what is happening here.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
It's just like anything that shows up that's not on the plaintiff's side, they're like, whoop, that treatment center, they were in on it as well.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
You know, it's a very third rail thing, I think, this idea, just broadly this idea of false allegations of rape or sexual abuse or assault, right? So I think it is a really challenging thing. And again, it's like, okay, why would Madison do this if it wasn't true? So they're not saying that she lied. They're saying that this was implanted in her. And I just...
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Just to sort of like step outside the lawsuit. I mean, this poor girl, I just, I can't even fathom sort of what's going on with her psychologically. And I think it's, I wonder if you have any theories because I think this is like this idea of like, okay, her being, you know, obviously she did not want to return to her parents at that point where the suicide attempt happened. Right.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
We don't know much about what happened between then and now. There's several years have passed. Eventually, she files a lawsuit of her own, and now they've combined the two lawsuits. But we don't know anything about what her relationship is with her parents. How can we sort of look at her behavior and sort of what might be going on with her?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Because you said something to me the first time I ever met you. when we were in San Diego five years ago that has always stuck with me, where you said children want their parents to be good.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
easy for people to lose sight of especially if they are an elder millennial like i am or younger is that these concepts of child abuse being a thing that should be against the law that should be uh protected against in a formal way are very new um and hence i think very fragile. We are only sort of one generation into these being very accepted concepts.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And I've seen so much evidence of this, and it's like one of the most heartbreaking things in child abuse scenarios, regardless of the form of child abuse, is that you do see children defending their parents, even when they are abusive. You see children defending their parents. You see children wanting to be with their parents still, even if their parents are not providing a safe home.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So can you help us understand just a little bit how complex, these dynamics are, you know, for a child who may very well have been... I mean, I have to say, I think the evidence at this point points to that she probably is a victim of abuse. I think this idea that this hospital and HHSA and all these other people conspired to cook this up is completely...
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
bananas i i don't think there's nothing going on here i think that would be it would be a complete legal situational precedent setting case if this actually happened it is never that we know about happened like in the history of of anything that you are you know that you know about child abuse so it's like there would be no legal precedent for this kind of conspiracy so that's just worth saying like in american history no legal precedent of this ever happening so if true yes
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
You know, then we are in a different world than we thought we were. But like, you know, if Madison is a victim of abuse, just like, you know, what can we sort of speculate about like what her motivations might be for going forward with a lawsuit like this?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
The other possible- Well, I will say actually just to break in, Mary. I mean, I think when we look at Madison's medical trajectory up until the point where she was, they call it detained in California, which is like, I think you guys need to maybe have a better verb for that. Just sounds very law enforcement-y.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
But when she was separated from her parents, if you look at her trajectory up until that point, which like, she's a child, her parents are making medical decisions for her. I will say that that to me in particular, which we're going to talk about this doctor, Dr. Bolognese in New York, them taking her to that doctor who has been sued so many times for a really horrifying malpractice.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Again, we're going to break this all down. But I mean, looking at that as a parent, I'm like, I wouldn't walk into that man's office, let alone. let them see my child.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So I think like that trajectory and the sort of, just the sort of like how far outside of the sort of standard of care her treatment appears to be and this piling on again of like the, you know, Ehlers-Danlos, CRPS, POTS, again, all real things, but like Why was this child on a feeding tube? Why was she... Again, it just sort of the most extreme, the most extraordinary.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I mean, it fits so many hallmarks that I think like, again, I don't have the evidence in front of me to say whether or not this was Munchausen by proxy, but there certainly are a parade of red flags that would leave me to believe that if, you know, that that is more likely than a factitious disorder imposed on self scenario. Okay.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah. I think anybody looking at this, even if you do believe it's a conspiracy, I think we can all agree that this young woman has been through a lot and certainly is going to face some some serious mental health challenges. I think the worst possible thing for a person in that situation is to go through a big public lawsuit.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And so even though I grew up with this as the norm, you know, people your age and my parents' age did not. And so I think that's something really important for people to keep in mind as we talk about legal challenges to these protections, which is what we were talking about today.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
One of the things that really to this day just turns my stomach about Kowalski v. Johns Hopkins is the fact that it has dragged two already traumatized children through years and years and ongoing trauma. litigation, media attention, reinforcement of them as, you know, their story being a tragedy and sort of being pawns in this lawsuit. And so I don't know, I guess I will just say this.
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I think, you know, if you're sort of like, and not to be glib about it, but if you're sort of putting like, okay, if we're weighing like with the information we have, what looks bad for the parents and sort of what looks like maybe there is something there, There's an awful lot in this column that doesn't look good for them.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I think it might be construed that Madison now joining this lawsuit is somehow in their favor, somehow speaks to, okay, this was a conspiracy. I don't think that's an assumption that anyone can make because- That's a good point. You know, and I think it's the same thing with like Maya Kowalski testifying on behalf of her family.
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And, you know, some people who believed that Johns Hopkins was on the right side of things like were pretty critical of sort of the role that they saw her playing. And I did not agree with that at all. I was like, this is a young person. She turned 18 while that whole thing was happening.
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I was like, this is someone who has been, no matter what you think happened here, so traumatized by, you know, her mother's death, by this whole situation, by being separated from her parents again. There are situations where both of us agree, where I think most people would agree. There are situations where parents cannot provide a safe home for their children.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
That's not a safe place for that child. The removal separation needs to happen. It's still going to be traumatizing.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah, absolutely.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And this lawsuit against Reedy Children's, which we have been covering on the show, which is extraordinarily complex and which we are going to continue to cover as it unfolds. And so I really appreciate you being here to help us just understand really what's going on here and what is the substance of this lawsuit and its various claims and really just help us put some of these things in context.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Thank you for saying that. And I think it really is important to remember that it is traumatic to be removed from your parents. But what is the alternative?
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
It's not done lightly. Right. Because, you know, they're only going to do it in a situation where it truly needs to happen. And I will say in abuse cases, right? Neglect cases are just an entirely other ball of wax that accounts for 76% of child removals.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
There's so much resource stuff going on there where, like, unfortunately that is an easier thing to remove children for because it's more straightforward. Right. than an abuse investigation of any kind where you may not have evidence or it might not be strong enough or the prosecutor might not want to move or what have you.
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Whereas I think if you're just evaluating, oh, there's not enough space in this place where these people are living or there's not enough food in the cabinets or what have you. So that I think is just a totally other kind of conversation.
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Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah, one hopes. But I think that's certainly sort of a flaw in the system that's like pretty separate in my estimation from abuse cases. I heard actually when I was presenting at the Stanford Child Abuse Conference last year, I listened to another presentation and she was talking about the foster care system.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And I think that's something that people have a lot of fear around or that gets a very bad sort of reputation. And she was talking about actually that data is so skewed
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
because of sort of when you talk about like ACE scores, you know, adverse childhood experiences, that like a child that's in the foster care system has already had some bad things happen to them to get there, but they're going to have a, often have times have a better outcome being in the foster care system than they would have if they had stayed in that home.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So I think it is really like, it's a recognition. Like, I think this whole conversation is a recognition of their being better and worse options, but no perfect options once a child cannot be raised by their parents.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Right. Right. I just think about this all the time, having gotten to know some of these people, child abuse pediatricians in particular, because I hope that we will move beyond that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
this period of demonizing them in short order because to me i i think their work is heroic because these are people who have chosen to look at something a part of humanity that very much exists and unfortunately is much more common than most people would like to think And they have chose to look it in the face and be part of making those impossible, hard, but necessary decisions.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And right now they're being villainized for it. And I'm like, that is a job that most of us would not last a day in.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And that's how we should be training it. For, you know, this upcoming season I'm working on, I talked to a number of people who worked in pediatric and infant hospice care. And those are some of the saddest conversations I ever had in my whole career. And I just thought, God, it is so special that there are people who are able to do this work. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it is so backwards.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
um so you know one of the things i wanted to ask you about is this element of video surveillance because i think this is something that is not well understood by people outside of the child abuse field um although it has come to play in many of the cases that we've covered on the show it is um you know it frequently comes to play i think in munchausen by proxy evaluations but can you just tell us a little bit about
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And I think eventually we are going to look back at this period the way that we look back at the satanic panic. And we're going to be like, what were people thinking? How did we ever – how were we ever in such a backwards scenario that we were looking at people who are so – There's just nothing for them to be motivated by. It's not a well-paid position. You don't make money. They do a lot of work.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I mean, I've never looked at one of these positions where I'm like, oh, you're just actually doing a lot of work that you're not being paid for at all. Much more likely than that this is well-paid. And they're putting themselves just on the firing line. And I mean, I think it is like, I hope we get to a place where more people understand that they should just be in deep, deep admiration.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Because I think this always comes back to you for me, much like it did in the Kowalski case, where like, if you are lucky in this country, if you are lucky, you live in a place where there is a well-resourced, trusted children's hospital. We have one here, Seattle Children's Hospital is not far away and I can drive my kids there if they need to go there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And you are lucky if you have a community that supports that. And they are a part of the community. This idea, and I think this is where it gets to this core debate that we're having right now as we rehash all of the societal gains that we made in the 70s. Apparently, we're just doing it all over again. good times, is this idea of like, do we think children are the property of their parents?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Or do we think they're human beings that have their own individual rights that are a part of the community? And are we trusting other people in the community to also be part of raising our children? Obviously, parents have rights to their children. I have kids.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I'm not arguing that parents shouldn't have decision-making capabilities, they shouldn't have rights of their parents, that they shouldn't be able to choose what school to put their kids in or what have you. But it's like, I think there's a real fundamental question here of like, I want to live in a world where I can trust other adults around my children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So I want abuse to be investigated because I don't want those adults just wandering around, around my children, around their own children. Like I don't want child abusers just going scot-free in our community. Call me crazy. So it's like that also means trusting other people that are not in my household, right? That means trusting other family members.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
That means trusting my kid's teachers and the people she interacts with there. That means trusting child care professionals. mind. And I just feel like we've lost sight of the fact that if we don't have that society just sort of crumbles. Yeah. What is society then? Yeah. Yeah. So no small things being debated with this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So I did wanna ask you about this. I know we got into some bigger philosophical questions, but this is another kind of layer, again, of this conspiracy thing, is what they're saying is, so when this whole thing sort of comes out, so there's the suicide attempt and then the child, so then there's a second complaint filed against the parents, a second complaint for removal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
True Story Media. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
This one is ultimately accepted. And she is in this center for like a treatment center called Milestone Treatment Center. That is... The lawsuit is alleging that this treatment center said that if... the petition didn't go through, that if the parents didn't agree to have custody of her removed, that they would kick Madison out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
how a tool like video surveillance is used in a hospital setting in the course of a child abuse evaluation?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And so the lawsuit is alleging that the parents agreed to let the state have custody of Madison so that their daughter would not, in their parlance, become homeless and disabled. So I just wanted to tell... I mean, again, just on its face... I don't understand that. It's very hard to parse. I mean, it took me... It took me quite a bit of research to even figure out what they were saying happened.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
If I have misread this, please, listeners, weigh in, because this was a bit of legal jargon that like, sorry, I did not go to law school. You know, but basically they're saying that there was this threat that Madison would be kicked out of her residential treatment center immediately. If her parents tried to get custody back. Now, I don't know if the parents got custody back.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Why wouldn't she just come home? We do not get an answer to that. But so I just wanted to like evaluate this a little bit. I mean, again, I feel like it's very hard for me to sort of take this claim seriously at all because I can barely make sense of it. So custody was ultimately removed. Madison was ultimately, they then at that point, terminated reunification services after the second complaint.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
So they removed custody and were like, we're no longer gonna be on this reunification path. This is done. And I mean, again, she was almost 18. So I don't know how much that played into it. But so my estimation is this milestone conspiracy piece is an effort to explain that, right? Like why her parents didn't continue to challenge the removal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Um, so they're then saying that this, I know it's like, it's, it's like next to impossible to divine what they're even saying happened. Um, but it doesn't, I guess it doesn't seem very likely even, even on its face, but that, that a residential treatment center would somehow have a dog in this fight. Um, But just knowing centers like this, I mean, does this seem equally as wild to you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Right. I mean, the way I read it was like, oh, if you don't agree that she was abused, then we're just going to say, OK, I guess there's nothing wrong with this child. So she doesn't need to be in residential treatment. So we're going to show her the door. I mean, I just don't think that's how that works. No. I guess another scandalous and precedent setting, if true, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I mean, I don't like either of these people have discovered just truly the most wild conspiracy that has literally ever taken place in the United States of America. Or the world. Or the world. Right. Yes, I was just saying, like, you know, I don't, I haven't studied international law to know enough, but like, I would assume that this was like, this is a conspiracy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I mean, this is like a, this is a Dan Brown novel of a different stripe if any of this actually happened. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I think, um, well, thank you so much, Mary. Is there anything else you just want to say about this lawsuit, about the situation, about our understanding of, of these things? Um, this was so helpful to talk through all of this with you. I really appreciate it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Oh, well, I really appreciate that, Mary. And I just yes, tell I know we have a number we have many child abuse pediatricians that listen to the show. And I'm sorry, you are not more widely appreciated, but you are always appreciated here. And you know, I try not to be I try not to be hyperbolic too much on the show. But I don't if that's not heroic work, then I don't know what is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Well, thank you. Thanks, Mary. Thanks so much. This episode of Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files was hosted and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Mariah Gossett is our supervising producer. Greta Stromquist is our producer and editor. Aaron Ajayi is our fact checker. And thanks also to Nola Karmouche for administrative support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah, I've certainly come across it in cases like the one that we're covering for our upcoming season. It's also frequently used as a tool in poisoning cases and can be if they suspect that that poisoning is actually happening in the hospital. So my sort of broader understanding of this lawsuit and lawsuits like this is that they are using a lot of very emotionally charged people.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
language and emotionally charged concepts to um you know intentionally or not i guess obscure kind of what is really going on here and what actually may have happened to this child and i think that the video surveillance the reason they're focused on it is because i think it has that emotional charge i think when people have this idea that you would be surveilled in a hospital with your child
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
is very upsetting. I understand why that upsets people. I do too. Hospitals are an interesting place. And I think that so many of these lawsuits, we really get into some pretty strong differences of opinion on what a hospital is and is not. Is it a building full of employees? Is it a part of a community? What role should it be playing?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And I think that this kind of gets to another one of those questions, right? Is like, what kind of privacy can people expect in a hospital? Because obviously there are a lot of intimate, sensitive, vulnerable things that happen within hospital settings. And it's a setting where you're not necessarily going to have privacy for a lot of reasons, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
You know, even like the most time I've spent in a hospital, luckily, was when I was giving birth to my children. And, you know, you have people and I mean, now it's funny because during childbirth, I could have cared less. But I mean, like you have a jillion people coming in and out of the room, you know, at various points in the process. So I think that's
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
There are some sort of interesting questions about what privacy people are and are not entitled to in a hospital. What do you kind of, as a person who spent a lot of time in hospital settings, like what are your thoughts on this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah. What are some of the risks of changing laws so that hospitals are more private settings, so that you can have more of an expectation of privacy within that? What are some of the costs of doing that from your viewpoint?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah, you understand where some of these privacy concessions, I guess, as they were, could be upsetting and not ideal for a person in a given situation, but also that they're necessary because I think there's, you know, just I guess I think about this like sort of hierarchy of things that are going on in a hospital, right? And especially I think with kids, right? And the...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
the do no harm of it all and i think um obviously one of the other things that comes up in a lawsuit like this and in particular um it you know is highlighted in this lawsuit is the idea of parental consent to medical procedures and this idea that the child underwent various
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
You know, procedures, diagnostic testing, nothing that they shouted out in this lawsuit sounded particularly invasive to me. I think the most invasive thing they mentioned was a swallow study, which again, is not a procedure that has any pain associated with it or anesthesia.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
but that they were saying that this was, you know, without the consent of the parents during a time when the parents did not have custody of the child. So I think there's a lot of tension around that too.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And even, you know, when we were talking about this with Dr. Becks, who is a pediatric hospitalist, you know, she was saying that there's, you know, even in a, not a custody dispute situation, but when the parents are at the hospital,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
they make reasonable efforts to get their consent on certain things, but there are certain things that, you know, the doctor's there, they're doing their rounds, they're doing routine testing. You know, there are certain sort of group of things that it doesn't make sense to have parental sign off on everything. And that there does have to be essentially trust with providers, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Like this is a very, this relationship, I mean, this could not be more central to what we talk about on this show, but like, that parents have to be able to trust providers and providers have to be able to trust parents. And I really worry about the damage that a lawsuit and the surrounding media coverage of a lawsuit like this does to that bond. And what are your thoughts on that?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah. So I want to talk about some of the details, and this really gets into another area of your expertise. And I wanted to talk about some of the details of what we know was covered on this video surveillance, because again, you know, this is another situation where we have the lawsuit itself and what we can kind of divine from that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Hello, it's Andrea. And today we have a conversation with a fantastic expert we've had on the show a number of times, Dr. Mary Sanders, to help us unpack the complicated situation that we have been covering with Reedy Children's Hospital. Mary is one of the very first people I met in the field of child abuse, and I appreciate her perspective and wisdom so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And because this has not gone to any kind of trial yet, you know, we don't have Madison, the child's medical records, but I did sort of go through this with a fine-tooth comb seeing what details we could pick out. And one of the things that really caught my eye is that they said that they talked about some of the stuff that was allegedly captured on this video recording.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And one of the things that they mentioned was that Madison was allegedly seen tampering with her own feeding tube. The lawsuit also mentions that there was some concern from a number of providers, including those at Rady Children's, that Madison was fabricating some of her symptoms. This is framed on behalf of the plaintiffs as false. falsification of evidence.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
I can't totally follow that thread from the information that I have. But if this is what's been captured, sort of looking at these ideas of seeing her tampering, seeing Madison possibly exaggerating or falsifying some of her symptoms, given the fact that she is 16 and 17 when this whole thing is going on, what do we know about the dynamics between victims of Munchausen by proxy that are that age
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
and their parents, because I think there's really a lot to sort of unpack here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
Yeah. And, you know, I think this really brought up, you know, some of these other cases that we've talked about on the show, like the Maya Kowalski case and the Justina Pelletier case, where, you know, when you're talking about munchausen by proxy abuse with very young children, they really are not old enough to be part of the dynamic in an active way.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 20: Rady Children’s Part 4 with Dr. Mary Sanders
And then it gets a lot more complicated when kids get a little bit older, I think, especially once they get to be 9, 10, and then on into their teenage years. And I want to be really precise about how we talk about this. And I know this is something we've talked about quite a bit on the committee of how to sort of frame this behavior because –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And we've definitely learned a lot from the progress that has been made around child sex abuse, which I think it still is underreported. I think most people accept that child sex abuse is real and not rare. Yeah. Certainly anybody that's informed on the topic knows that, but I think that did not always used to be that way, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And it was seen as this like stranger danger type of aberration, you know, one in a million sort of thing that happened. And then our society grappling with it sort of went through some interesting hurdles along the way.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
a major one being the Satanic Panic, where you have all these stories about, you know, daycare workers and underground, you know, the McMartin case and all these like underground tunnels, which my take on it is that that was society grappling with something that we really, really didn't want to look at, which is child sex abuse, and that actually it was easier and more comforting to think that it was Satanic daycare workers
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MBP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
because that's a problem that you can ostensibly solve. But I think it's more comforting to think that there's some evil system that you can kind of shut down than it is to confront the reality, which is that this is Boy Scout leaders, priests, coaches, dads, uncles who are doing this, right? It's most likely to be someone that that child knows.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And it's not going to be someone who is an obvious creep all the time. And it's so similar with Munchausen. And that's where we get into kind of the hullabaloo that happened around the Maya Kowalski case with the film Take Care of Maya and a lot of the coverage that really followed in lockstep with that, where they presented it as a medical kidnapping case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Medical kidnapping is our satanic panic, essentially. It's like, you know, this idea that doctors are just separating families, right? Like doctors don't make those decisions. Doctors evaluate abuse. It's a legitimate subspecialty. There's just so much disinformation around that. And the Maya Kowalski case was sort of the most high profile one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But I think that there is a similar dynamic going on there. And certainly with Munchausen by proxy, it's not a one in a million thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think the behavior is along a spectrum, but I think it's far more common and getting worse because of social media, because of which I would assume actually some of the behaviors that you all talk about on betrayal and this sort of more male deception and cheating and that kind of thing, like talking to Spencer Herron case, like social media has given
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
people unfettered and unlimited access to attention. And, you know, I think it was Dr. Romani says in the TV series, like, oh, that's the dangerous combination, right? Attention seeking plus lack of empathy. I mean, that is exactly how you describe Munchausen by proxy behaviors. And so I think there's every reason to believe that it's getting worse. And that is a scary world to live in.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but like the world is not what you thought. That mom of the sick child who's raising money on GoFundMe and seems like the most heroic mother you've ever met. could be the scariest person you've ever met. And so I think that's why these conspiracy theories around medical kidnapping get traction because the reporting on it is very thin.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Child abuse professionals do not make good money. Child abuse pediatrics is a highly trained and not well-paid subspecialty. They get trashed in the media. They get accused of snatching babies. I mean, it's not for the faint of heart. And also just like that work, like, Doing that frontline work of rushing to the hospital to see a child that's been abused is obviously emotionally grueling work.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
There isn't any scenario where you could make it make sense that doctors just want to do that. It's a nightmare for the hospitals. The hospitals can get sued. You know, it's like there's no motivation. But I think the reason those stories still take off in the media is that people's discomfort around the reality of this abuse is so, so deep.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Something that we're constantly confronting in True Crime. is having to tell these hyperbolic versions of true crime stories when in reality, the more relatable and important ones are the ones that are kind of in the everyday. I remember when we were covering Ashley Litton's case in Riverton, Utah for Betrayal Season 2,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You reached out to ICAC, which is an Internet Crimes Against Children task force that every state has. And I remember one of the task force members asked, why are you covering this case? Like, I deal with, you know, perpetrators that are 10 times worse than Jason Linton. Why this one? And my response was no. I don't want the hyperbolic version CSAM case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You know, I want to meet people in a very average everyday story because that's actually what's happening. And so I feel like that's the same for a lot of these mothers who are, if they're on the news, it's like this monster of a mother that did this. And it's like, you know, we have to hear about the extremes instead of leaning into the reality of what's happening. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I mean, I became a media outlet because I was so fed up with the way that media was covering this case. Right. And it's been interesting over the last few years as I've kind of jumped first, I guess. I've noticed that awareness is increasing, especially because of the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case, which was so high profile.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I do think that there's more of a conversation happening than there was five years ago. But, you know, there was like so much reticence to talking about it. Like I remember when my novel came out and like I had written like an essay for it and that got killed at the last minute. And there was just like a lot of like, no, no, no, no, no. If there's not a conviction, you can't talk about it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I was like, if we're not talking about the cases where there aren't convictions, then we're not talking about the problem. Right. Like when you get into... the extremes and allows people to put it at arm's length. That person is a monster. That person is a psychopath that like I would see coming and this would never happen to me. And that's not reality.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I think that was why for me, it was so important to talk about my own experience because the other thing that we do with perpetrators of crimes, especially if it's something where it just feels so like deeply, deeply, deeply wrong, We often say, oh, well, that person must have had a horrible childhood. That person must have been abused as a child. There must be some like dots I can connect.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I think that that's part of the let me tell myself a story about this that makes me feel safe. Right. We're like, as long as X, Y, Z doesn't happen in my family, we won't end up with one of these perpetrators in our family. And that's just not the case. Right. I mean, my sister did not buy anybody else's, you know, nobody else witnessed anything traumatic happening to her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You were not raised in abusive household like her. It's not something where, oh, there's some straight line that you can draw. And I think that's really uncomfortable for people. I think people really want to believe that something awful has to happen to a person to make them like this. And I don't think that's true.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think it is that combination of lack of empathy and need for attention that really can supercharge these behaviors. Totally.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think one of the things that I also felt was really relatable and the circumstances are so different, but just knowing your sister's story and having to go in front of the judge in family court. Like you're dealing with family court and criminal court are two separate things. And the issues that I've seen a lot of the women that I deal with on betrayal having to navigate the criminal side.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And once that's over and, you know, the father of their children are released, then they're dealing with family court, either in their divorce or child support or dealing with visitation. It is a whole other ball of wax where parents have a ton of rights, rightfully so, but they're in situations where kids are at risk. It's a really scary system because they are two separate entities.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah. And I think that that's something that the vagaries of that like really is lost on people that have not had to interact with these systems. And I think people here and a lot of this, again, when I'm talking about like, you know, my kicks and bugs work for NBC and his whole do no harm series. Like a lot of this is I think intentionally created a confusion where it'll be like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Courts said doctors disagree. Like courts said, you know, this and that. Right. And you're like, OK, which court under what circumstances? Like, give me more information. Right. Yep. And everything goes to the family court first because those are less, you know, those investigations take less time than the criminal investigation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So we end up in a lot of situations where the family court gives the children back during an active criminal investigation, which just I think sounds ridiculous. insane, but that happens all the time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Likewise, you know, there's this thing of like, well, doctors at this hospital said this, but other doctors disagree without ever mentioning that those other doctors are people who were hired as expert witnesses by the parent defending themselves. Right. Important information.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And, like, I think people don't realize that the courts don't take the steps that you would think in the face of a criminal conviction to, like, limit that person's access to their own children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Like, for instance, you know, we just had a case that we were talking about on the show, the Jessica Jones case in Texas, where she got a 60-year prison sentence and the courts did not terminate her parental rights. And so now the dad has to pay to do that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So just the onus that ends up on a protective parent in any child abuse situation, I think people have no idea what that looks like or just people don't realize how easy it is actually to get access to children again.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah. In the case of Stacey Rutherford and Tyler from season three of Betrayal, I think the courts got it right. So for people that don't know, Stacey was married to a man named Justin and he was a doctor in Reading, Pennsylvania. She had two children in a previous marriage and then met Justin and they got married. They had two kids of their own.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And he was, by all accounts, a great husband, an incredible doctor, beloved by his community. Turns out that he was abusing Stacey's son from her first marriage, his stepson, since he was 11. And... Tyler didn't disclose until he was, I want to say, 17. So a long time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And, you know, Justin also tried to hire a hitman while he was in prison to murder Tyler so that he wouldn't testify in court, which is what we cover in season three of Betrayal. And what the judge did is not only did he get He'll be basically in jail for the rest of his life. I don't want to misquote what his sentencing was.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But he isn't allowed to speak to his biological children or have any contact with the family until he's done his probation. Basically, for the rest of his life. And so I remember talking to Stacey and Tyler and them feeling like really complicated emotions because they deeply love Justin. Like the person that they knew as a human being, like Tyler loved his stepdad.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But then there was the monster, the abuser. They were two different people to him. And that was a scenario where the court really contemplated a lifetime of abuse and grooming and narcissistic behavior and just got it and knocked it out of the park. And I was like, heck, yeah, like this is a Pennsylvania. Like I was really proud. So, yeah, like sometimes we talk about things getting wrong.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Like that was a scenario where I think the courts got it right. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And it's, you know, it's so complicated. And I think it kind of goes back to this question of once you have identified a person as this type of abuser, where it has so much in common, my test, my proxy with with child sex abuse, where it is, you know, an extremely compulsive behavior. It's one of those things where, again, I think like and I think we can
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
more easily recognize it in child sex abuse cases where it's like, OK, if you cross that line with a child, you're not a safe adult, period. Like if you're capable of doing that, like, you know, whether or not you should be thrown in jail for the rest of your life or we should do something else with you is sort of a separate question. But like you are not a that's why we put people on registries.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
That's why we say they can't go near schools. Like we have no such attitude towards much as my proxy perpetrators. Yeah. There is this idea that it is like some mental illness that people are sort of, quote, suffering from. And much like child sex abuse, there is an underlying psychiatric disorder. A fact is just sort of imposed on another.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It's very similar to pedophilic disorder, which is also in the DSM. Also very challenging to treat. Also very, you know, unlikely that a perpetrator will take enough accountability to be treated for it. And it doesn't reduce someone's culpability. And it's like a very complicated thing that happens when like children always want their parents. That's such a biological drive for kids.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
That's a survival mechanism. even if their parent is not capable of loving them or being safe with them, like they will always kind of have this longing. So you can have a situation where someone is separated from their parent and then they really, really, really idealize that parent And don't then protect themselves. I mean, it's really complicated.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And then for survivors that have fully processed the abuse or not going that direction of saying this didn't happen to me. Right. Fully understand, fully process the abuse. I mean, we saw Joe in our fourth season really struggling with this with with their mom of like they totally recognize what their mom did to them and they understand a lot about the dynamics and they still love that person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I mean, I would say most of the survivors I know are either low contact or no contact, but it's really complicated to navigate that relationship. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you for watching. Thank you for watching.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you for watching. Thank you for watching.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for watching.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you. Thank you for watching. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes or And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you very much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you very much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Thank you very much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So today we are talking all things true crime and how we handle this strange and wonderful career that both of us have found ourselves in. I recently was myself a guest on Betrayal Weekly, and I cannot tell you how much I admire this team. They bring so much integrity and care to their reporting and their work.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I'd love to start off with just your background. How did you get into being a true crime podcaster?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You know, I often joke that I am a recovering TV executive. And so I come I hail from the TV space. But I work for a company called Glass Entertainment Group, and we specialize in reality TV and documentaries. And for about seven and a half, eight years, I was overseeing our business department. So I was the executive in charge of production.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So I did all the boring things in TV, which is like the budget, the financing, like all the hard stuff. And my colleague Ben and I were constantly working through legal deals with our development department. And we were seeing great stories getting passed by TV executives and networks.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And one story that came across our desk, we were working with Kim Goldman, who is the sister of Ron Goldman, who was murdered by OJ Simpson. And we were trying to sell something in TV with her, but a lot of TV networks weren't interested in the project unless OJ was involved or OJ was attached or we could guarantee an interview with OJ. And this was back when OJ was still living.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think he had just gotten out of prison and was living in Vegas at the time. But my colleagues and I really believe that there was a story here even without OJ's voice. So we decided to make it a podcast. And instead of telling the OJ Simpson story, we told the story of people who lived it. And so that's how we got started in the podcast space.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
That's a great answer. I mean, I really see like that imprint for the work you've done after that, you know, and also that just really plugs into what I think is interesting about true crime stories, which is the sort of long tail of them and the way that they impact the people who are pulled into them. Yeah. So one of the things you're known for is your work on Betrayal and now Betrayal Weekly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and today I have a wonderful crossover episode to share with you. This is my conversation with journalist and podcast host Andrea Gunning of the Betrayal and Betrayal Weekly podcast, as well as a really phenomenal show that we shared a few weeks back, There and Gone South Street.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
How did you come to that story that was the first season of Betrayal?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It's all kind of related. So Jen Faison is the subject of season one in her marriage and how the marriage unraveled. But she works in television. She's a television executive producer. So we kind of are in the same universe. And Jen had heard Confronting O.J. Simpson and reached out to her agent. And her agent reached out to me and my colleague, Ben, for an initial conversation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But the universe has an interesting way of working because at this time I was getting out of a relationship. I had moved out of my boyfriend's house. I had discovered a lot of deception, not to the magnitude that Jen had. And I was kind of recovering from understanding, like, why was I in this relationship? Why was I ignoring a lot of signs?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Was I ignoring it or was it like, you know, all of these questions that were coming to the surface. So it was like I was meeting Jen at the perfect time. I couldn't relate to the magnitude of what Jen was going through. But I knew like as it was like, I don't even want to say as a woman, as a woman, but as a human being, I understood the pain when she pitched me her story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And it's just always really heartening when you see the behind the scenes of a show that you love and the vibes are this immaculate. Not always the case, unfortunately. We are currently working hard on season six at the moment, which will be coming at you in June.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I understood her anger and her confusion. And I found like this emotional access. And I thought if we could maybe do something with that, people will relate and maybe heal. And so just that relatability and that timing of it just so happened to work out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that that shows up in the quality of the season and just the emotional depth of it. And I'm really interested in what you said about this idea of not coming from a place of anger. This is a really complicated part of interviewing people about these stories, right? Because they have every right to be angry.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
You have every right to want to even go on a sort of revenge journey. But doing that on a podcast is not actually helpful to anyone, right? It's not helpful for the listener. It's not really ethical to sort of try and get someone in that energy, even if it can be compelling in its own right. And I have the same experience.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
sort of thing when I talk to folks who are often dealing with really extreme betrayals. And then on top of that, you know, the abuse to them or abuse to their children or children that they care about. And it's, I think, really important to make sure that someone is ready to have that conversation. It was important to me, you know, I started off
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
With telling my own story in the first two seasons of the show, kind of bit by bit. And I sort of revisit pieces of it from time to time. But like, I had to wait, you know, a decade until I was ready to talk about it. I was like, it's such a vulnerable thing and it's such a vulnerable thing to put out there and then have people react to.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
There are so many points along this journey where getting on a mic would have been the absolute wrong choice for me. Right. And I think there's also like the expectation setting because if you're talking about a case where it's either an unsolved case or it's a case where there wasn't a good outcome or it's a case where like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And in the meantime, we are bringing you a lot more Case File stuff, including our coverage of the Ratty Children's case in San Diego, which we are working on now. If you followed our coverage of the Kowalski case, boy oh boy are you going to notice some similarities.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
the person you're talking to wants some action to be taken by authorities. That's not something that we can make happen. Can't always guarantee. Right. And, like, so I think that's also, like, a really tricky part of it of making sure that who I'm talking to, like, yes, we're going to put all this out there and... I think people are going to care.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I think people are going to get something out of it. They're going to learn something important. They're going to relate with this experience. I hope you get a deep personal catharsis from sharing this. But like the cavalry is unlikely to mount up because unfortunately, that's just not often how it works. And this may not end with answers.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah. And that was my worry producing There and Gone, which came out this past summer in 2024. And I have to give iHeart a lot of credit because we pitched them this story and there wasn't an ending and we couldn't guarantee that we would find or solve this case. And so you're taking a lot of risk.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And then the partnerships that you make with distributors are also taking a lot of risk for what's the payoff? You know, what's the audience going to leave thinking? Are they going to walk away feeling satisfied? And, you know, these are people like we're studying and we're exploring stories of people and their loss and their trauma and their grief.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And so we're not always going to get a payoff that makes sense to everybody. You know, I like telling stories that really show the complexity of the human experience. And I think There and Gone is an example of that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Yeah. Can you kind of give us an intro to the case and how you got interested in it?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Sure. It's the story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo. 20 years ago, two 30-somethings just literally vanished off of South Street in Philadelphia, which is basically like the Bourbon Street of Philadelphia, the busiest place for nightlife. They were seen leaving a bar and then never seen again. And then until this day, no one knows what happened. Was it an accident? Was it murder for hire?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And so I remember this because I was, I think, a senior in high school. And it was terrifying because one of the victims, his parents have a bakery that I grew up going to. And both of their families look so much like mine in different ways. They do Sunday dinner. I come from an Italian family. We do Sunday dinner. You know, they gamble on Sunday over football bets.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
As always, if you want to get in touch, you can send us an email or voice memo at hello at nobody should believe me dot com or leave us a comment on Spotify. If you're listening on Apple, you know we love those five-star reviews. Please and thank you.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Like, I'm wearing my Eagles jersey. Like, this feels like this could be my own cousin this happened to. So it was very personal to me. And so it was just this loss that kind of
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
reverberated throughout our entire community and continues because how do two people in their mid-30s just vanish just literally into thin air and when we were exploring doing the story I thought the families would be very interested but we would struggle with law enforcement
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
But then I soon realized that the FBI really needed our help because the FBI knows that the more coverage they can get of this case, more people will be able to like call in and feel like, let me just do my part. Let me 20 years later, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to make the phone call. I'm going to say what I know and be done with it. And.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
I live in this city and there are parts of this city where this crime isn't a big question mark. There are parts of this city and neighborhoods in this city where people know exactly what happened or they feel like it's a fact. They communicate it like it's a fact. I know who did it. I know why it's done. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Like how a whole neighborhood in one city, there's like this understood rumor of what happened to two random people that have no connection. And that was the neighborhood in which I lived. So... To me, it was like, I just want to help these families. You know, we didn't solve the crime. Yet. But there was enough people that actually wrote into the FBI for them to reopen and assign new agents.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
So I feel like I did my job.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Hell yeah. I mean, that's amazing. And I think this is one of the most interesting parts of working in the true crime sphere and why it's so important to like... take this job seriously and be really responsible is because it does have real world impacts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And yeah, I mean, this question of law enforcement, it's like, so I, the case that I'm working on right now for our next season is one that I am hoping that some action will happen on. How realistic that is, who knows? But I do think that it is and can be a powerful tool to getting law enforcement involved. And that can be the kind of thing where you get
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
And of course, the best way to support the show, if you are able, is to join us on the subscriber feeds on Apple and Patreon, where you will get two extra episodes a month, ad-free listening, and the entire new season on the day it launches. So with that, here's my conversation with Andrea Gunning.
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Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
you know, political will for a local prosecutor to actually file charges on something where they might not otherwise. Yeah. You can, you know, get people who are making those decisions at the police department to assign some extra muscle to it. You can, you know, flush out some new information from the community.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
Well, the first thing that just to interject, I think one of the biggest things that I feel like we both, you know, Betrayal, trauma and deception is one thing. Your show covers factitious disorder. And although they're very different, there's so many commonalities between people who live through or have
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
a relationship with Munchausens and Munchausens by proxy, and people who experience deception and betrayal. The topics we cover on betrayal are extreme, but sadly, they're not uncommon. Yeah. And in season three, we really focus on male sexual abuse. And we learn that one in six men have experienced this issue. But the really scary reality is
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 13: The Andreas of Ethical True Crime with Andrea Gunning
It actually is probably more, but it just goes unreported because of the stigma around it. And I just feel like These are two taboo issues, you know, Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And to take that seriously and talk about it to help dismantle that stigma, it's such a large hurdle.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah, that's really sweet. One of my best friends has a daughter that's a few years older than my daughter, but they are super buddies. And truly, it's the dream, right? Otherwise, you kind of have to try and make friends with the parents of whoever your kid makes friends with, and that's a whole crapshoot.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
So yeah, I totally understand why that would be, especially because you and Sophie had all these unique things in common with the transracial adoption. you know, being people of faith and all of that. This is one of the only times I've made a season and told the story without starting with a direct source.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I think one of the hardest things for me about covering this was that I did not want C&M to be reduced to sort of characters from a true crime drama. And most of what we know about them was from Sophie's narrative about them. When sort of with M, the gymnastics stuff was the most prevalent. And then with C, obviously, the story of illness and the story of...
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes, And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Hello, it's Andrea.
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Um, thank you for sharing that. It's a really nice to just hear some, some stuff about who they are as people. Um, so tell us where this takes a turn. How did you come to find out about the podcast?
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And today we have something really special for you. That's a bit of a first here on Nobody Should Believe Me. In the months that we were reporting on the Sophie Hartman case, we reached out to dozens of potential sources to try and get as complete a picture about this case as possible.
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And while a number of people had quite a lot to say, the majority of them didn't feel comfortable going on record. And listen, I get it. There's nothing in it for anybody to talk to me. I always hope that people will be willing to speak up on behalf of the kids, but everyone has to evaluate their risk in getting involved. And I respect that.
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In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated. The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa.
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What followed was a year of upheaval, violence, and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North. In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed.
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But then, last fall, I heard from someone that I wasn't even aware of. And last week, that person decided that she wanted to go on the record. I've been out and about doing stuff for the book the last couple of weeks, and a lot of folks have been asking me how I handle being so knee-deep in all this dark stuff all the time.
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Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. So Sophie told you about the podcast, but she didn't tell you whose sister I was, did she?
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And the reality is, it can be hard, but it's also extremely rewarding a lot of the time, especially in those moments where I know that the show has reached someone who really needed to hear it.
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No, I mean, you're right. It's absolutely earth shattering when you find something like this out. Yeah. That is just like, I think, a deeply shared experience for everyone who goes through a case, right? It's just like, yeah, it's one of those things where you remember exactly where you were. You know, there's like a before and after of your whole life with that kind of thing. So at some point.
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I get an email that was sent to like the, you know, general email box for the show and it was anonymous. And, but I thought, oh, this has to be about Sophie. Can you tell me like what made you decide to reach out to me directly?
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And while I bear witness to an awful lot of horrific behavior in this line of work, I also get to witness people like Chalice, who we're talking to today, make the incredibly brave choice to see the truth and speak up. And that's what keeps me going. So without further ado, please meet my brave friend, Chalice Howard. I wanted to start just by asking you, how do you know Sophie Hartman?
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Yeah, and then so shortly after that message came in, we got on the phone and I think we talked for like, I don't even, like two and a half hours maybe? We talked for a long time. It was at least two or three hours, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it was just really... extraordinary to hear from you.
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You know, I'm, I'm like, I'm aware that like my voice is going out into the world without me and that people are listening to it. And, you know, you hope it, you hope it moves people. And one of the things that I always hope is I'm like, I hope this show reaches the people it needs to reach, right? Like that's the whole point of it, right? And so I was very moved by the fact that it reached you.
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And it is deeply ironic that Sophie is the person who made that happen. Right. Yeah, it was kind of amazing to like just have these like, you know, lengthy conversations. I mean, the reality is not everyone... most people in fact, don't deal with coming to this realization like the same way that I did, right? Because we had really parallel experiences of, I really remember, you know, like,
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That conversation with my parents where we finally sat down and said the thing and said what it was. I remember having that conversation with my parents where we finally just said it all out loud. And it was. It was like a tear in the fabric of the universe, you know? Yeah. And then we were grappling with what to do next. And I felt all those same things that...
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you know you have gone through feeling like a traitor feeling like i was betraying her knowing that there was no possibility of sort of confronting her directly about it because i think right i i suspect maybe you have had some similar experiences with sophie because it sounds like you knew that right that's like one of someone you're really really close to you would hopefully be able to sort of sit down with them and say like hey man i'm having these feelings and i'm just like i need to talk this through and because you can't sort of have that like boulder of doubt you know in the
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Like, yeah, I'd had enough previous experiences with trying to sort of confront my sister on things or sort of trying to, you know, like, like, hold her accountable in some way or like asking her questions when I had questions and getting that shut down and being dealt with this like really emotional, you know, how could you reaction that I knew that like that wasn't a possibility.
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And so we just had like such a common experience, I think, with that. Right, right. just like you i was like well but like i don't see how there's any other option but to try and do now whatever i can to sort of protect the kids and i think especially because you were close to sophie and in touch with sophie and were someone who had a relationship with the girls
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I was very concerned while I was making this season that there was... It's unlike the other seasons of the show where I've made or I've been making it with the family members, with people who are in contact with the survivors or victims or what have you. And, you know, the... Cases I've covered previously, even the Maya Kowalski case, those children were out of danger, right?
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And, like, that is not how either of us, I think, now see this situation. And so I think it was a huge relief for me to have someone that... could see how this family was doing because I do care about how my reporting impacts the people it covers. I care about that a lot. And I did feel
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conflicted to some degree about the fact that I was covering this without the participation of the family and without the consent of the girls right and that that does feel feel different different for me than the other stories I've I've covered and I think that was why we took you know again measures to like obscure their identities as much as we could and and all that but um but it felt nonetheless important to cover it especially because there was
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There was this lawsuit that Sophie was waging. Right. And that wasn't what the evidence showed. And I just thought, especially with the sort of climate that's been created with the Kowalski case, I just thought, I better cover this before Netflix gets a hold of it, you know, really. And so I think it was a tremendous relief to have contact with you.
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And so, you know, for a number of months, we were in touch, well, you were still in touch with Sophie. And I know that was really... uncomfortable for you. Can you, can you kind of talk through like what that experience was like and what our conversations were around that, like why we decided to sort of go about things that way?
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And what was your relationship with her throughout these past 10 years?
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Well, first of all, nothing that you have ever said to me sounded crazy. I find I have a lot of these conversations with folks that are in these same situations. I was like, the story is crazy. You are not crazy. And I think that is one of the – after effects of gaslighting, right, is that you just find yourself really like grasping for reality.
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And yeah, having that shared experience is so powerful, because even though I do now know other people who've been through it, it's still a relatively unusual experience, you know, and I was and am so concerned about these girls. And Like I said, I take the ethics of what I'm doing really seriously. And I don't hate Sophie either. I'm not out to get her.
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And so I was worried about the impact that it would have on her. And I think one of the things that like, and I really, you know, adore my team and my producer Mariah is so deeply ethical.
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And I really have a wonderful team, especially on this, our researcher and one of our producers, Aaron Ajayi and Nicole Hill, who worked with us in the season and just was like a really such a solid team to talk through some of these issues.
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things with and like how can we best approach this and how can we do our best to mitigate any unintended bad consequences on this family and so it really was such a relief to be in touch with you and I think there's this question of like Sophie's family and I think one of the reasons that I
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connected with this case other than the fact that my sister was literally involved was that like Sophie is a very strong parallel to Megan right because there are these other cases that we've covered where where they come from these you know chaotic families and I think there's a real knee-jerk thing to say like I think especially because the most well-known case is
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is the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case where Dee Dee Blanchard really did come from this like very troubled family and there was a whole bunch of stuff about like her father and you know I think that people really want there to be an explanation for why someone does these things and they want to be like oh well they were abused as a child or what have you or they were deprived in some way or they had you know all these stressors and certainly those things can contribute to child abuse as a whole
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medical child abuse is in sort of a different category. There is no known sort of like adverse childhood experience big connection. And I think Sophie was from such a similar family in some ways. My family is not religious, but both Megan and Sophie are upper middle class white women who are very polished, very presentable, very well-educated, have all those trappings.
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And I, you know, and use the same very expensive attorney to get their children returned to them. It's just like that those pieces were so compelling to me and sort of like explaining how the system works the way it does. And I'm so compelled by like. our family faced the same choice and we went that way.
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And her parents went the other way and have continued to fund and support and enable everything that she's done. And you talked about wanting to hate me. I sort of wanted to hate them, or at very least I felt a ton of frustration with them. And...
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It was really interesting talking to you about what they're like and what you've said, which is like the other people that we talked to on background for the story said the same thing. Like, this is a really nice family. Like, they're like, are really good people, well-liked in their community. You know, again, it would be easier, I think, if we, it would be easier if the people who were...
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enabling monstrous things were monstrous themselves, and that's not the case with the Hartmans, right? No, it's not. And I think one of the things, in addition to hoping that you could keep some line of communication with the girls, we were hoping that you could get through to the Hartmans. Yeah. Can you talk about your conversations with Sam and your kind of attempts to maybe reach out to her?
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if you can go back and I know you've been on a real journey, so it's can be hard to put yourself back in that mindset. But like, if someone would have asked you before all of this, like, what is like, who is Sophie? What is she like? Like, what do you think you would have said about her?
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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Yeah. I mean, it does feel so familiar, right? Like you think about these sort of things that I brushed off or the times I did defend her, you know, it was like when she had her fake pregnancy and then like somehow. I managed to blame the boyfriend for that, which is like, I don't know how I made those mental leaps, but I did. Right.
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Cause it was just like, yeah, it was definitely cause he stressed her out and then she just faked a whole pregnancy. It's like, that's not, that's not an explanation that made sense, but emotionally to me, it made sense at the time. And then thinking back on, yeah, these periods where before she had cut me off, right. Where like,
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I was thinking about this the other day because there are, you know, there are such frequent financial shenanigans that come up in these cases. And we talked about some of that with Sophie's case, but like, you know, previous to any of the pregnancy stuff, like actually right before the pregnancy stuff, you know, Megan had committed check fraud.
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And my parents bailed her out, but she was very mad about it. like, quote, siding with them, because I was like, well, you know, you did, like, do the thing. Like, I can't understand why they're mad. And then she didn't talk to me for, like, three months. And then when she got, quote, pregnant, that was when she got back in touch with all of us.
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So it was already like, oh, any attempt to, like, confront her will be seen as a betrayal. So it's like, yes, they do the wrong thing that is harmful, and then somehow everyone else has to apologize for it. It's very bizarre, but it's very, like...
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It's believable to me that Sophie's younger sister is also in that dynamic with her and, like, understands that, like, you support their version of events 100% or you are dead to them. And that is what happened with, you know, like, I know what would have happened to Sophie's parents if they had declined to fund all of that.
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I presumably it would be the same thing that happened to my parents when they declined to help make and file a lawsuit against Seattle Children's. Um, because, you know, then they never saw their grandchild again. Um, so, so I think, I think the fear, the fear is real. The con, you know, like that and understandable and I'm empathetic to it.
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I'm not empathetic to putting that over the safety of the children. And, um, I also think, you know, one of my sort of lingering questions, and I think you have some insight into this because you have been sort of on both sides of it, believing the narrative and then seeing the reality, is that, you know, Sam and presumably...
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their mom and to some extent their dad, you know, were sitting in this trial, heard those doctors present, saw that evidence, have seen everything that I have seen and that you have seen and much more because all of this took place in family court.
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And so there is presumably a large amount of evidence that has not made it into the public record or at least a large amount of narrative that hasn't made it into the public record. And You mentioned seeing these reports in the press, reading some of the charging documents. You're a very smart, thoughtful person.
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You're not a person that would read to me as someone who just hops on board with the conspiracy theory of the week. And yet this narrative of medical kidnapping, right? And you'd said even you'd seen sort of the Maya story before you'd encountered the show and everything and sort of thought, oh, there's another example.
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And you saw my sister's case and you were like, oh, there's another example, which is like how confirmation bias works for all of us. But like, why do you think that made sense to you? Like, how did you sort of like see it in a different light? Yeah.
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Does that make sense? No, it really does. And I think, you know, I will tell you that when I have been looking at
Nobody Should Believe Me
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True Story Media. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon.
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these sort of stories about medical kidnapping in particular like as a whole or like the separations that happen and i mean i think like the the biggest misconception to my mind is that like the doctors are doing it like doctors don't have the power to do that like doctors do a medical evaluation and then they present that evidence that they collect to whatever authorities are making those decisions so
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The fact that they place the blame so directly on the doctors, you know, that like, oh, this is a this is a conspiracy headed up by Dr. Weister at Children's like that to me just as a framework is is very suspicious.
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And now that is not to say that especially and I will tell you, like, if it is a nonwhite parent or, you know, a parent that is not like middle class or middle class, especially white.
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Like then you sort of look at like, all right, there could be other things going on with the system here that are unfair, that are, you know, that are dragging this out, that are, you know, meaning this person can't afford. But like. It just doesn't track for a white mom, let alone a white mom who can afford one of the best defense attorneys in town. Sorry, that's not how the system works.
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And I understand where you're coming from. And I think a lot of us do understand that there are problems within, quote, the system. And the system is many systems. They are all different in every state. There are different problems with different ones. They affect different populations differently.
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So there's so much nuance and to sort of group it under this whole thing of like families are, you know, being torn apart by these doctors. And then I find it especially galling that given that there are families that are so disenfranchised by the child protection apparatus.
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And we had that wonderful expert, Dr. Jessica Price on to talk about her book where she was talking about some of those stories. And those were, you know, yeah, Black moms that had been really put through the wringer. And those were really like sort of deeply human stories.
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And then all of these, you know, like the fact that most removals happened because of neglect, which is far sort of, you know, that's far more attached to sort of like resources than abuses. And these stories that have been highlighted in Take Care of Maya, in my Kicks and Box work, um, in USA Today and elsewhere. Like, these are not those stories, right?
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Like, if you want to go and find extraordinarily sad stories about families who've had their kids taken away unfairly, those stories are out there. Those are not the ones they're featuring. And I think it makes me doubly mad that, you know, that people like my sister Megan are
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And Sophie Hartman and Jack Kowalski, they're exploiting then that experience of parents who do unjustly have their kids taken away. And it's just sort of like insult upon insult, you know?
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And, you know, obviously given that you've known Sophie for 10 years, you knew her when this case with her younger daughter, C, and this investigation was happening. And you even came out to the Seattle area to visit with her during that. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, twice. And what was your understanding of what was happening in that case?
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Yeah, and I remember, you know, you and I talking through this piece of things while I was researching the case, and that that was very helpful for me as a person who did not grow up as a person of faith.
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I really wanted to approach the evangelical piece of this with care because I don't want to make it – the point is not to dunk on people who are evangelicals or people who are Christians or be like, look at these – idiots or whatever that kind of thing, because that's not how I feel.
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And yet I think this piece about, like it really struck me reading Sophie's memoirs, reading her journals, just reading how she presented herself and how she appeared to really sort of even think about herself when she was in her own time, on her own time, writing journals, presumably not for an outside audience.
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that that really struck me of like oh well that's pretty convenient framework for someone who wants to do this because then you don't have to assign any human motivations that make sense to the people who are out to get you just be like satan um you know and it's sort of a it's like a thought thought it shuts down any sort of further questioning um and it was really interesting to see even how sophie you know her relationships with these churches and um i
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I have obviously deep ideological differences with like the churches that she went to. And yet with the church here, with Pursuit, I mean, I feel like those people were victimized by her. And I think that there's every evidence that they really did care about her and care about her girls and try and support them. And, you know, I really feel a lot of empathy for them.
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I just wonder, too, like, you know, we were sort of talking about with Sam and even with where you were at before this of, like, there's this desire, like, when you're trying to maintain a relationship with a person like this and you love that person and you don't want to lose that person. Yeah.
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There is this thing of like, I think instinctually, you know, if you look too closely at it for too long. Yeah. it might break through. And so you just kind of like, look away, look away, look away.
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And once you're, you know, it's really, it's like that matrix moment, right? Like if you take, I think it's the red pill, right? That wakes you up to reality. And it's like, oh, then you just really can't go back, you know?
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And so like once you had like made that step and then you were looking at some of this documentation, you know, in particular, Sophie's journals, which obviously are quite disturbing to read, right? Like, what did that feel like for you?
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Well, I appreciate all those things you said, first of all. And I think that's really, truly exactly what I hope the show will provide for people. And I think everyone who's been through one of these situations at some point gets into this sort of self-recrimination piece of it, where you just go, my god, how did I keep doing this? How did I defend this person? How did I believe them?
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I feel like such an idiot. And the reality is like, no, you're not an idiot. You've been victimized by that person. And like they, we all function that way. Like we all live in a basic sort of emotional truth that, you know, is varying degrees of detached to or detached from or attached to reality, right? It's just like how humans are. So you are not in touch with Sophie anymore. No.
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Can you tell us how things eventually did come to a head between the two of you?
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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You know, I think probably one of the reasons that we did connect as much as we have is that I know that you mean that and that you hold all of those complicated truths about Sophie. And it is so complicated for those of us. You know, it's something I talk to my friends who are survivors about a lot, and it remains, you know, complex for me, where on the one hand, this behavior is so...
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Cruel and horrible and damaging. And I don't ever want to soften it for anybody, right? Because we do that too much already. Like, oh, they're struggling with a mental illness. Like, no. Right. No. It's inexcusable. They're doing what they're doing. They're committing these horrendous acts. They're putting their children in danger. They're lying about it. They're manipulating everyone.
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It's very dangerous behavior. And I don't think that that precludes us seeing the humanity in them. Yeah. And both the conversation with Hope and one of Sophie's journal entries in particular. Yeah. The one where a lot of her journal entries are these extremely florid, plugging into this narrative about herself as – Jesus, essentially, you know, right?
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Like on this sort of, you know, I'm this martyr and my daughter and, you know, I'm like sort of talking to God and really, you know, framing herself that way. And then there's this one entry where it's very plain spoken. It's a very different tone. And she just sort of says... yeah, I'm a compulsive liar. I've done this, I've done that.
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This is when it started for me, you know, around the age of four, I remember feeling this way. And, you know, that the only way that I could be loved and be worthy of love was to have it the worst.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Right. And I mean, I felt like that was the truth. And that felt... Maybe the most honest thing she's ever done. That felt true. And I... It really broke my heart to read that because I just, I can still remember a version of my sister that I did really love and was really close to. And whether that's sort of the real her or not, or whether that was always a mask,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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or whether something in between is sort of, you know, a deep and open question. But I think about that, about her being younger in particular and being in that kind of pain, and it makes me really, really sad. And I do think that Megan and Sophie are in a lot of pain. I think it's a sad and a horrible and destructive way to live a life. And I think...
Nobody Should Believe Me
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they do so much damage to others and they also do so much damage to themselves. And I think it really also, you know, thinking about the lack of connection that you would have to feel with other people to be able to do these things, the lack of empathy that you would have to feel to commit these acts, that must be so profoundly lonely.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I mean, Talis, you're a mom also, like, you know, I have two little kids, like, the love I feel for my kids is like the most rewarding thing ever. You know, like it's just like, it's the best.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And like just your relationships with other people, whether you have kids or not, like having deep relationships with other people and trust with other people and connection with other people is like the thing that makes life worth living. And I think like the way I feel about, it was like, you know, while I was like digging into this case, I was just like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
you know, it's like the more I learn about Sophie, the sort of more remote she is and just like talking to people who knew her and, you know, you were one of our background sources, but we had others and I did talk to a number of people who know her and knew her. And I just sort of felt like, Oh, nobody knows this person. This person's unknowable.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And that was what I ultimately felt about my sister. And it's like, people think they know some version of Megan and they don't because she's unknowable because everything is a lie. And it's everything is, there's no sort of like unadulterated version of her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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that is connected to another person everyone's sort of a prop in her play you know and I think like that really is like yes that's horrible for the people who are being used as props but it's also horrible for the person because they're at the middle of it and they're alone and I mean I think we can like I don't think it's wrong to feel empathy for a person who's having that experience in their life because it is sad but you have to like
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
see the truth in addition to that because otherwise you're not going to keep the children safe or anybody else. It's like, you can't be safe around a person like that unless you see what you're really dealing with.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I mean, I can personally vouch for you not being here with some kind of vendetta because or to gain something because trust me, and my producer can back me up on this one as well. You know, when we're sort of looking to talk to people about these stories, like the last thing we want is somebody who's like, yes, all right, let's do this. Let me at it. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It's a little like, oh, maybe you want to do this, like maybe a little too much. And then, you know, you wonder if someone's trying to settle a score or something. Then, yeah. And I know that like, especially considering like where we started this conversation of like, this can never be out there. My name can never be out there. And then, you know, it really was just like watching you evolve.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And then really this conversation came about because you had shared something on your Instagram about like the book and the show. And I was like- I wonder if Chalice is feeling like she wants to talk about this. And then, you know, and then so we had that conversation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah, I mean, like, same all around. Like, this is not what I expected to be doing with my life. Right. You know, and I'm glad that I've gotten the opportunity to do something that feels valuable. And believe it or not, this was not a long-term plan to have a popular podcast that I just was like, you know what I'm going to do?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
So, Talis, it's been so wonderful to get to have this conversation with you. It's one of many conversations we've had and hopefully will have in the future. But I really appreciate you doing this with us. And just lastly, and I think...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And, you know, you mentioned that when you got this phone call, that the first place that your mind went was that something terrible had happened to C. And... You know, we talked a lot about what Sophie had communicated about how precarious C's health was to many of the people in her life. What was your understanding of C's condition?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You know, when we were talking about this, like what we both hope and I think what we maybe realize about like hearing about your experience of listening to the show, you kind of realize like there's so much fear around confrontations. when you're in one of these situations.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
How the person will react, how the family members will react, whether or not you will be believed, and because you've been gaslit, you worry that you're crazy. And I realized that having some kind of passive way
Nobody Should Believe Me
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to process it it can be really helpful and so i think like i think we both hope that em in particular you know but see also will someday listen to this because it will hopefully give them a way to like process that information that does not involve taking a personal risk off the bat and so if they do hear this what do you want to say to the two of them directly
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Thank you so much. That was really beautiful. And, you know, I guess, like, I said this to Hope. I put this out on the air, you know, in the beginning, I think there was, like, this part of me that was hoping, obviously, that Megan would listen to it and be like, oh, look, my sister has gone and learned all these things where she can help me, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You know, the accepting of that help is, like, a totally different story. But I think, like, I know I'm the enemy big time. But, like, also, I think... you and I have the right idea about what it means to help someone like Megan and Sophie, right? Because like we can connect them with the people who built the treatment model for this. Right. That is possible, not easy, but it's possible. I think
Nobody Should Believe Me
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it's really important to like sort of, you know, first like keep the lights on for the kids, right? But then like for them too, like you said, if they ever wanted to come out of this, there would be another way.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Oh, well, thank you so much for saying all that. That just means the world to me. And I'm so grateful for you as well. And thank you so much for being here with us. And we will keep talking about the next right step. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
When Sophie would tell you none of these doctors are taking this seriously. Like this is, I'm, you know, and even the sort of narrative of like, I'm the only one who's seeing this. Did that, like, how did, how did that strike you? Like, did that, did anything seem strange about that to you at the time?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Or were you just sort of thinking, oh, like this is something that happens, like, you know, where doctors don't take something seriously or they dismiss a mother's concerns. What was your sort of take on that at the time?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah. And as far as the girls, you know, and you mentioned that you have girls the same age, and did you get to spend much time with the two of them?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I really appreciated Kathy coming on to share all of her research and her insights. Thank you for being with me this year and for your support of the show. I hope that you are getting some rest this holiday time and spending lots of time with those you love and getting a break from it all here at the end of this absolutely bonkers year.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Right. I mean, I'm fascinated at the way you describe that because, you know, I've had Bjorker on the show a couple of times and she described the exact same experience of just, oh my God, I get roped in every time. You'll be in a conversation with them and you'll just be like, oh, we've got it all wrong.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And then you sort of like come out of that trance when you look at these other factors, right? When you look at the evidence.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Summer is coming. The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still raining gross, which it can truly be any time of year. And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And if you too want to save your money for patio margaritas and vacations, you've got to ditch your overpriced wireless and hop on Mint Mobile for three months of premium wireless service for $15 a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Whatever is coming in 2025, I will be here with you every week and we'll get through it together. Now on with the show. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
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Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
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And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something.
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So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. ZocDoc.com slash nobody. You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes and remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So you were saying that there's several versions of this type of perpetrator. If we're talking about sort of like almost a profile, right? Which has been interesting to me on the show. You know, I think initially I assumed every perpetrator would be charming, charismatic, very bright, et cetera, because that's what I know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And then Brittany Phillips, who we covered in the second season, was like the opposite type, right? A bully, no one believed her, but she, you know, mostly got away with it nonetheless. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So what have you seen in terms of like when you're talking about, yeah, talk to me about those different sort of groupings of perpetrators and what you said about like which ones may be capable of some kind of crime. treatment and which ones are just not going to, that's not going to be viable for?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, hi, Kathy. Hello. Thank you so much for being with us. So yeah, if you could just start off by telling us who you are and what you do.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
No, no, no. All of this is on the topic. And I mean, that's really fascinating. And I'm sort of, as you're talking, I'm sort of triangulating the various cases into like those three groups. So the 45 families that you studied, those were not all suffocation cases, right? Those were a variety of flangellum by proxy cases. Okay.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I think medical child abuse is a helpful terminology for some pieces of it. But I actually really have come to appreciate sort of just the descriptor of Munchausen by proxy abuse because of exactly what you said. We see in so many of these cases, even if there are those, you know, really the life-threatening elements are more the poisoning, the suffocation, that kind of thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
the starvation in some cases the the it also extends to this you know emotional abuse and psychological abuse and educational abuse and it really like in some cases it's really only taking place in those um in those arenas and it's still extremely harmful and leaves lifelong wounds whether they're physical or not exactly and that's my problem with the term medical child abuse
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Right. But what is a dyadic diagnosis? Even I don't know that one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Which of those several jobs that you just listed, which of those was your first entry into this work? How did you get started in your career?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
There's got to be something at the heart of that evidence that they've got.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
You know, when you're talking about the sort of three different styles of interacting with the kid, and that's really interesting to think about this sort of idea that I've always wondered. And I think one of the things that people are the why people are so disbelieving about this abuse is because if you have kids, especially, but I think for anybody, it's it's so hard to imagine. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Right. Like harming your child, not even because you're having like you're in a rage or like because you're, you know, abusing substances and don't, you know, have lost your, you know, sort of faculties or what have you. But like this deliberate, planned out, orchestrated harming of your children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
It's hard for me to believe that a person who's capable of doing that is really capable of empathy, right? And so when you describe someone just sort of going down that road, but also simultaneously having the empathy, sounds like to be able to sort of rebuild and get to a better place. I mean, I just like I almost can't like reconcile that idea.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So what do you think makes that difference where someone that that very small, admittedly, percentage of perpetrators that that may be treatable?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yeah. There are many cases, Munchausen by proxy, many of the cases I've covered, in fact, almost all of them that I can think of off the top of my head, there was no known history of abuse as a child. And I think that makes it even sort of more perplexing. And again, you know, like Dr. Mark Feldman and the others sort of described this as a maladaptive coping mechanism.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And I think one of the things that I always try and, you know, remind folks to sort of bring the whole thing down to earth because it does seem so bizarre is like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
most of us i think if we take a moment can really understand that intrinsic reward that you get for being sick or having a sick child right as you said with this sort of first profile that you're talking about if someone was heavily parentified in an abuse situation and put in that caretaker role that that might sort of become this coping mechanism and this thing that they do and this thing that sort of becomes all twisted up for them i mean what's really fascinating is that
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
it sounds like people who are perpetrating this abuse because of their own history of abuse are more treatable than the other variety who is not doing it for those same reasons. And I'm also assuming with that second group that doesn't have a history of abuse, that's probably where you're more likely to see that pathological lying that spills into other areas.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So the really high rates of excessive infidelity, lying at work, fraudulent, this, that, and just a million things, you know, because so many of these cases that I look at, you scratch the surface and you're like, oh, this was not the only thing that this person was lying about. So I'm assuming that that's kind of more common in that second group too.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Right, just absolute chaos agent on all fronts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Like we saw this with the Hope Ybarra case that we covered in the first season, you know, she poisoned a coworker, like that kind of thing. Yeah. What else did you learn in this study about, and just what have you observed about like the family dynamics surrounding perpetrators? So both in like the family of origin, as you said, that's a piece that you look at and also their family as it is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So like their marriages, their dynamics with their extended family, that kind of thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Oh, yeah. We spoke to Ryan Crawford on the show. Yeah. Yes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yeah. And I mean, for those fathers who find themselves in that situation, who I mean, on the one hand, I can understand where this gets complicated in the arena of divorce, because something that people ask me about constantly and we can address this a bit is like, well, what about all these false accusations of Munchausen by proxy? Now, there aren't there's not really any data that there are.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yeah. I know we're having the same reaction. There isn't any data to support that there are a large number of false accusations of much other than by proxy happening. But I think where you might see one is that a dad could throw that out in the context of a contentious divorce. but there wouldn't be any evidence to back it up, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So I can see where it feels like a thing someone might throw out as a way to sort of get custody of kids. But number one, I don't know that that happens often. And obviously, if you were... If you discovered that your spouse was doing this and did not want to go along with them, did not want to enable them, this almost certainly would end in divorce, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Because you're not going to maintain your marriage with that person and watch them torture your children. For dads who discover this abuse, I mean, is there any way, like, is it about reporting it sooner so that that's on record while you're still married? Or, I mean, is there any sort of practical advice? Because we hear from a lot of people on the show. I know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I know in addition to studying perpetrators, and I know you don't necessarily have data to publish yet, but you are doing a long-term study on adult survivors.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And I wonder if you can just share with us, you know, even anecdotally, sort of what you've noticed about how this affects, you know, sort of maybe even starting with, like, how does this affect children when they're children and being victimized? And then what are those long-term effects on adult survivors?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I want to say a huge thank you to my incredible season five team, Mariah Gossett, Erin Ajayi, Nicole Hill, Greta Stromquist, Robin Edgar, and Nola Karmouche for making this all happen. You guys are the best. If you subscribe to the show, you will also get Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours, which is the subscriber exclusive show that I co-host with Dr. Becks twice a month.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yeah. I mean, it really seems to me that one of the, you know, even if someone, even if a parent isn't engaging in things that are as physically dangerous or as life-threatening or surgeries and that kind of thing, that just this, like, you're really robbing a child of their opportunity to come of age, right? Because they're not having normal childhood experiences.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
They're not learning to take care of themselves, which is what you're, you know, it's like your whole job as a parent is to prepare someone to go and live in the world and then they're just like really in the deepest most persistent way not getting the opportunity to do those things exactly
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I'm hoping you can give us a little bit of hope or some direction in this arena that, you know, given that, I mean, unfortunately, as we both know, the likelihood of a victim being separated from their perpetrator in any meaningful way is low. It's low even if they are in the best case scenario where they have a father who is protective, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Even then, it's a huge challenge as we know from cases like Ryan Crawford's. and George Honeycuts and many of the other dads we've talked to on the show. So given the fact that many survivors of this abuse are going to end up only confronting it in adulthood, in their 20s, in their 30s, whenever it is that they sort of are able to have that revelation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
What are some things that survivors can look to and what can we all do to make this better, make this world better for survivors essentially? I mean, what are some of the keys here to fixing this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
irreparable damage nobody should believe me is proud to partner this month with the american civil liberties union with more than 1.1 million members 500 staff attorneys thousands of volunteer attorneys and offices throughout the nation the aclu is at the forefront of fighting government abuse and defending the freedoms we all hold dear freedoms of speech and religion
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Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
a woman's right to an abortion, the right to due process, citizens' rights to privacy, and much more. In the two months since Donald Trump took office, the ACLU has filed over 20 lawsuits to protect people from the administration's abuse of power and attempts to strip away our most fundamental rights. And right now, they are at the forefront of protecting immigrants' rights.
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The ACLU sued to stop Trump's attacks on birthright citizenship, to end the deportation of immigrants to Guantanamo Bay, and they're providing legal counsel to those currently detained there. They also block him from using an archaic wartime law, the Alien Enemies Act from 1798, to arbitrarily deport immigrants and deprive them of due process.
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Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
The ACLU is also partnering with the legal teams fighting to free Mahmoud Khalil and Rumesa Ozturk who were targeted by ICE for exercising their legally protected rights to free speech and political dissent. The ACLU is fighting for all of us, and with so much on their plate, they could really use your support. So head to aclu.org backslash action at the link in our show notes.
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Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. Today is our final Case Files episode of the year because next Thursday, January 2nd, we are launching season five of Nobody Should Believe Me. So for listeners on the main feed, we will have it at its regular weekly cadence. And for the first time ever for subscribers, we will have the entire season, all eight episodes ready to binge.
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
such a strong sort of splitting that the perpetrators do that like if you are that person who has quote taken their child I think something that I've come to understand about perpetrators of this abuse is listen if someone will do this to their child There are not limits on this person's behavior and they are going to, you know, take everyone down with them. Like they will keep fighting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I mean, I just, you see this all the time, right? They will bankrupt whatever family members are supporting them in court. They will.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I mean, they will just sort of, I remember when I was talking to one of the dads who presented with us at the APSAC conference and he made a great, Brian is his name, and he made a great, I wish I could remember it word for word, but he made a great analogy where he's sort of like, you know, what people don't understand about dealing with someone like this is you're like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
It's not like there's someone in your house and you need them to leave. It's like there's someone in your house and they're threatening to burn it down with you in it and then blame you when the police get there. Like it's just this sort of like scorched earth thing that is very pervasive in these cases.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So what year roughly was that case? What year did that come up, would you say?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So when you say stay in the court. I mean, have an open court case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I think there's a real strong theme. There's a really strong theme in what you're saying here. And I've wrestled with, not in terms of family members so much, but in terms of survivors especially, is sort of like the importance of before you can do anything to help anyone, you have to see the truth.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
You have to really acknowledge what has happened here because there's so much denial in these cases. And I mean, I think certainly in like splitting the families, it's like you can't, you know, you can't protect a child if you're not acknowledging the fact that they're being abused in the first place. Like that is then you are enabling the abuse and that is what you're doing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I think with survivors, it's an interesting question for me because like one, one I've thought of in particular, just as specific, just as a specific example, we covered in season three, the Kowalski case, which I'm continuing to follow up on. And, you know, that survivor, and I, I've
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
feel very strongly that she is a survivor of Munchausen by proxy abuse so that she does not currently acknowledge that probably for a lot of obvious reasons. There's a pending case against the hospital, et cetera.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I'm so curious about that dynamic because yes, my first question, I was sort of doing some quick math in my head and I was like, I bet that was around the time that even term came into existence. And I wonder if that doctor who, so it sounds like the doctor in that case was really trying to protect that mother and was very much unwittingly, I'm sure, but sort of colluding with her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
But I've wondered just personally for my, for my own self with, with, you know, regards to Maya Kowalski or someone who's in that situation where, you know, she is 18 now, her mother, you know, died sadly by suicide in 2017. So her mom has been gone for a long time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And one of the reasons I felt a little bit conflicted, not enough to not cover it, because this is an extremely important case to many other people and for sort of outcomes overall for child abuse, I think. But, you know, is that I sort of wonder, like with someone like Maya Kowalski,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Is it better for her to live the rest of her life and just believe that her mom was who she believed her to be and believe that her mom didn't do this and believe that her mom was a loving mom? Or will she not be able to sort of move forward with her life if she doesn't know the truth? And I don't have an answer to that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
But I mean, I think it's a really interesting question because, of course, this is a horrible truth to have to confront. Exactly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Right. That, I mean, that, that so resonates with me and sort of understanding why you react to things that you do. And certainly in a much, you know, I'm not, I'm not a childhood trauma survivor. But I, you know, the impetus for me getting into this work was having my first child, because as you said, that tends to shake a lot of stuff loose.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And for me, that was, I, I, you know, I, I suddenly found myself Um, just overcome with sort of processing it in this new way, what had happened in my family and really confronting some of the ways that that had burrowed itself in me that I did not previously recognize and sort of thought like me. You know what? I'm doing pretty great. I'm doing all right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
You know, and then it just kind of takes you down. And so I assume and imagine, especially if that's childhood trauma, which obviously sort of implants itself even deeper. And then you can have all those levels of dissociation with it that that that could just sort of be this monster under the bed for your whole life, unless you sort of drag it out into the light.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yeah, certainly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And so how did he frame, What had happened? You know, like he was cutting out your part of the process, but like he sounds like he did report it. Like what was his conception of what was happening?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yeah, that's almost extraordinary. Well, not to me, but I think, you know, you sort of think like, oh, how could someone have ended up back with their mother if it went all the way through the courts? And like you said, this study was very specific to families. And what I've come to understand is the least likely outcome, right? Where there is like actually a court decision against the mother.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I mean, certainly from looking at the cases I've looked at talking to adult survivors, most of them have more of this pattern of like, yeah, my mom was getting, you know, she's getting reported all the time. CPS was there all the time or like this, that, and the other thing happened or this family member suspected and they got cut out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
But it's like, most of them were raised by their abuser, right? Like most, most of the time, I think that's most survivors we're going to talk to are not going to be placed elsewhere permanently. And then, as you said, when there is another placement, there's all kinds of other things that can come up there. So it's, it's a difficult situation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Safeguards.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Well, and presumably, I mean, from what I understand, I mean, this is such a deeply compulsive behavior that even if someone really, even if in those cases where a parent is trying their best and fighting the good fight, they're still going to be fighting those compulsions. So they need a lot of help and support to be their best as a parent.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I mean, I think we could say that probably across the board that all parents need help and support to be their best parents, but especially if you're... Yeah, especially if you really are struggling with, you know, your own sort of maladaptive tendencies. So, Kathy, I honestly could talk to you all day.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I hope maybe you will come back on and talk about some of these cases with us, like the Jennifer Bush. I don't know if you'll be able to talk about the Justina Pelletier case. That obviously happened in your backyard. But I want to be mindful of your time. So just one kind of final question, because this came up in a couple of your papers that I was reading.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Do you think that Munchausen by proxy is extremely rare? No, no, I don't. I saw that you had referred to and it's so funny because I feel like this is one of these sort of Franken pieces of data that has made its way into people who are wishing to cast this as rare. And I think, you know, as we see this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Some of these narratives playing out in, you know, my kicks and bogs work in sort of Take Care of Maya film and some of the press around that. You know, there's this argument that's made in court, in the media or what have you, where Munchausen by proxy is so extraordinarily rare.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
That if a child abuse pediatrician has had more than one case of it, then in their lifetime, then that is proof that that child abuse pediatrician is overzealous and they're making it up and they're looking for cases, et cetera.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Or if that some, you know, a place like Tarrant County that has this higher rate of conviction, oh, there must be, you know, that must be because they are seeing something that's not there because we have this piece of data there. that it is so rare.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And what it is, I finally realized, and Dr. Feldman had made a reference to this, and I sort of was like, oh my gosh, this is the smoking gun of the bad piece of data, which is this British study that was on 600 cases of suffocation and non-accidental pointing only. Yes. And that there was... Right. And so that is this tiny percentage.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And so that then has been applied to like, oh, this is the instance of Munchausen by proxy overall.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So you looked at this very small, at this point, pretty old study that was just about these two specific, most severe, most, you know, life threatening and sort of expanded into this, oh, it's this point, you know, you see, I see this statistic floating around of this 2.8 out of a thousand or what have you. And so can we just like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
debunk that statistic that people use kind of once and for all here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Thank you. Yeah. So it's not that it's a bad study that needs to be debunked necessarily. It is that it is being used. It is being, I think, deliberately misinterpreted. Yeah. Misused. Yeah. Exactly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
I would love you to come back and talk about that as well. I'm making my little list to myself of things to have Kathy back on the talk. You mentioned GI issues. And I mean, those are so common in these cases. And there was that study at Seattle Children's that a couple of our colleagues were involved with that looked at cases within that. And I mean, the prevalence pointed to the
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
much higher than what most people I think would think. So I think there's, there's all kinds of reasons, both data and anecdotal to think this is way more common than, than most people believe.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Now there are people in between. Well, I would really love to have you back on because I think, you know, what you're saying about sort of like the con artist thing, it's like I look at some of the spouses, actually, like your Lou Pelletiers and your Jack Kowalskis that like when you dig into their history, I'm like, oh, then you get both. You get one of them each and you get them in a couple.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
And Jennifer Bush's dad.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yes. All right. Well, if you'll permit, we would love to have you back on because these are all things I would really like to dive into.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you. Thank you for thank you for doing it with me. I really appreciate it. I think I just I learned a whole bunch of new things. And now I have a million more questions for you, which is why this whole thing has turned into a podcast. There's so many layers to it. You can never believe. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Kathy. I appreciate that. Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
That's really fascinating. So that was sort of your entry point then sounds like into getting interested in Munchausen by proxy. Exactly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
We talk about a variety of Nobody Should Believe Me adjacent things in crime, pop culture, the news, etc. This month, we had a discussion about the Menendez brothers and their case, which has been back in the news recently. And as always, if monetary support is not an option, rating, reviewing, commenting on Spotify, sharing the show on social media,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
You mean medical child abuse cases, the Munchausen cases?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Right, are the black hole of, yeah, I can see that. I mean, this is really fascinating because I think that sometimes people, and certainly even as I've been digging into this, I think many of us are surprised at how recent... our recognition of child abuse period is, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Munchausen by proxy is its own thing, but even sort of this idea of like the battered child syndrome and the need for protections for children from abuse is very recent.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
So it sounds like previous to this era, there were sort of patchwork services And maybe efforts to protect children, but not this sort of overall understanding that this is something that needs to be taken really seriously. Exactly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
are all things that really, really help us stay on the air as an independent show. So today I'm talking to Dr. Kathy Ayoub from Harvard. Kathy is a colleague of mine from the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children. And we had a really fascinating conversation about survivors, perpetrators, and just all of the complex psychological dynamics involved in these cases.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Yeah. If you can just talk us through, like, I, and I always want to make sure in my work that I don't cast aspersions of any kind or sort of make parents of truly chronically ill children nervous. And of course, those parents do have bad experiences with the medical system plenty of the time, right? I mean, there are those real problems also.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
Munchausen by proxy cases are very distinct from those, I think. But I wonder if you can kind of talk us through, like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 10: The Psychology of Perpetrators with Dr. Cathy Ayoub
What are some of the things that makes either parental behavior, just the sort of expression of it, like what are some of those things of like if you take a child that has a genuinely rare medical complexity and put it up against a Munchausen by proxy case, what are the differences between those things?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
It's safe to say that we are the only media outlet covering these cases in depth on an ongoing basis, and while I often feel like I am a combo between a newsroom and a documentary studio, I am very happy that the team and I are able to take this on.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
Yeah. I mean, POTS is certainly a diagnosis that does come up a lot in Munchausen by proxy cases. And as with many of the things we talk about, most of the things I would say, this is a real condition. So this is not a claim that everyone, that this is just a false diagnosis. And actually, could you explain a couple of things about POTS? Because it's not something I'm super familiar with.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
or rating and reviewing the show, commenting on Spotify, sharing with friends, shopping our sponsors, to give just a few examples, well, it's because we really need that support to do this reporting. And especially given the current economic climate, you better believe that I do not take this for granted a single day in my life. So again, thank you.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
for diagnoses like this is not because they don't exist and they're obviously there's like a treatment protocol for this and everything else it's because these things that can be a little murky to diagnose and are can be like catch-all for
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
any number of symptoms, and especially if there has been a push to have those interventions like central lines and G-tubes and things that then allow perpetrators access, that does become very concerning. So I think it's like, I always want to be really clear when we're talking about these conditions that there are unfortunately conditions that are much more likely to be exploited by perpetrators.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
And we talk about this out of concern for those communities. And those doctors that are trying to get answers about those diagnoses because those people are very directly harmed by people who are using those now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
And I'm not saying that's what's happening in this case, but that is sort of the reason that we talk about those diagnoses, not to delegitimize them or to sort of make any implications about people who actually suffer from those.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
And please let us know what you think and let us know which pieces of this case you would like us to explore in our future episodes on it, as well as any other requests you have for Case Files episodes. You can send us an email or voice memo to hello at nobody should believe me dot com or leave a comment on Spotify. And with that, on with the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
Yeah. And I think, you know, the other thing that tends to be very hard to unravel in like both in cases of abuse and even just for people that are, you know, in non-abuse cases where there's a huge kind of medical odyssey and a bunch of things popping up. is then like you're getting treatments, you're on medications. What is symptoms? What is side effects?
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So it sounds like she was taking quite a lot of medications at this point, too, which sort of just adds a layer of complexity.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
She has the three diagnoses at this point. So, I mean, are there known GI connections with those conditions?
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
Got it. And with Ehlers-Danlos, and we'll for sure do a deep dive on this at some point because it is just, again, unfortunately a diagnosis that is a diagnosis that is like ubiquitous in not only medical child abuse cases, but also many parents who are, are claiming to have been falsely accused of breaking their children's bones bring up Ehlers-Danlos as a possible explanation.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So certainly one that is just coming up a ton. How common is Ehlers-Danlos?
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So it's a really atypical presentation. And then you have, like, I think what strikes me often about these stories is that, you know, just sort of the probability that you get into, right? So now you've had, like... an atypical reaction to an injury. And then that leads to CRPS, which is extremely rare.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
And then, you know, Ehlers-Danlos, which however rare that is, and then you're in the percentage of people where that's extremely debilitating. And it's sort of, you get into these tinier and tinier percentages. And also it's this layering of a bunch of conditions, right? It's not like, oh, this is your diagnosis.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
And of course that does really happen, but I think it certainly, it certainly stands out about this story. It's always a treat when a brand that I already love comes on as a sponsor. So I have been wearing Skims high-waisted briefs from their Fits Everybody collection for a while.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
Well, again, for those of us who did not go on the Kowalski journey, yes, ketamine played a big role in Maya Kowalski's treatment. And so, yes, the combination of CRPS and ketamine treatments is definitely giving me some flashbacks now, I guess, to ground us.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
Although I think our relationship with ketamine and our knowledge in general about ketamine has changed quite a lot, even over the last year and a half since the Kowalski case trial took place, because of the death of Matthew Perry, because of a official that is running around being a fan and proponent of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So we did hear from a pain expert from Stanford in the Kowalski case who talked about ketamine. And I believe he did use on some of his CRPS patients sort of like a low dose ketamine treatment for, again, refractory pain, meaning it wasn't responding to anything else. And ketamine is a drug that's been around for a It's used as an anesthetic.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So, yeah, certainly like and then we sort of talked about this thing of using ketamine off label. But then, of course, there are many there are many drugs that are used by physicians regularly that are used in that way because it just the FDA approval process is lengthy. But that's an intellectual explanation of my thoughts on that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
My my emotional reaction to hearing this part of the story is, oh, no. It really is now sounding very, very similar trajectory to the Kowalski case.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So not cash, strip mall, ketamine clinics like Dr. Hanna and Dr. Kirkpatrick in the Kowalski case with substandard monitoring techniques. Right.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So this is according to the treating physicians, is that kind of thing?
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So hello, Dr. Becks. Thank you so much for being here with us today and for your amazing reporting and research on this case. This is a real doozy. Frankly, we could easily do an entire season on it. But as time is of the essence and it takes us quite a long time to do a season, we really wanted to get this on the feed. And so we are going to be covering it
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
But yeah, seizures are a big part of these cases. And, you know, unfortunately, the reason this makes a diagnosis that's easy to use by a perpetrator is that it can be very difficult to capture seizure activity properly. when it's happening, right? Because they have to be in, you know, they have to either be under observation in the hospital, but it is capturable.
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Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
Like if you have those, you know, that monitoring going and the child has something that their parent is calling a seizure and they don't see that brainwave activity that's associated with seizures, well, that is not then a seizure. So what is the
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
So again, sort of non-responsive to the initial treatment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 17: Rady Children’s Part 1
And the central venous catheter, too, is hugely concerning in these cases. And we actually just talked about this for an episode for upcoming season the other day. And I talked to Dr. Ken Feldman, who's written about this in particular, about the risks of having this kind of access in a possible abuse situation.
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And also he talked to us that there's risks always with putting something like a port in, right? And usually it's for patients that have to get a bunch of intravenous medication on a regular basis. So to avoid poking them all the time and that kind of thing, or patients who are undergoing chemotherapy, usually have a port in my understanding.
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to begin with any four-part series, and then we will certainly have continuing coverage as this whole story unfolds. So, Bex, can you start us off and take us away? I know a little bit about this case from what I've read and just from sort of my ambient exposure to it. But yeah, and we should also start with a couple of disclaimers about our connection to a couple of folks in this case.
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So it's like, but they definitely weigh that with the risk because there's a risk of infection. And then certainly if there's any concerns for abuse, then you really have a scary heightened risk of induction.
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Well, there actually is. There is no way to have more expertise in child abuse. I mean, exactly. Being a child abuse pediatrician. And this is an extremely rigorous subspecialty and it is not. A subject of, yeah, it's not for the faint of heart, not terribly well paid.
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And they are right now just being villainized in many places in the country, including, you know, Florida, obviously, with the Kowalski case, Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania, which we're also going to be covering. Here in Washington, I mean, there is a lot of villainization of this subspecialty going on.
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It's important to say that there is no legitimate debate in medicine about whether or not this is a real subspecialty.
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Well, and I think it's a good sort of preface for us to put on this whole thing, right? Because I think what can be very frustrating about the media coverage of these cases is this sort of like wishy-washiness around some of this. And like, if you consider it a bias that we believe that child abuse is real and believe that Munchausen by proxy is real,
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And that child abuse medicine is a real subspecialty of medicine. Like we're not getting anywhere. You know what I mean? So it's like those are things that are science and data based. And so we are going on the assumptions that these are real.
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Obviously, I think the other side, you know, and that's the reason if I saw it peaked a little bit at the court filing and you see this like so-called child abuse expert. We've seen that a ton. In all of these court filings, there is this, you know, insinuation that this is not a real subspecialty, that this is not a real job.
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So I think like that is a place where, to my mind, when media outlets are covering this, that's something they should debunk for readers. Right. Right. Like that's just like that's a factual piece of information that readers are not going to be able to understand these stories if they are thinking, oh, well, there it sounds like there's some controversy over this subspecialty. Maybe it's not real.
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Those of you who've been with us for a while may remember that I started off my coverage of a similar lawsuit in Florida, Kowalski v. Johns Hopkins All Children's, intending to make it a four-part miniseries. Dozens of episodes, and I don't even want to know how many hours later, here we are. So, four-part miniseries has really become the three-hour tour of this show.
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No, the controversy is manufactured. It's not within medical establishment.
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People don't want to see him coming. Yeah, it's ridiculous.
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I fear that that may very well be the point. But yes, so I think that that is something that you and I will both be as open-minded as possible in considering all possible sides of this case. We're certainly going to make every attempt to talk to both sides. And the argument that child abuse pediatrics is real is not going to we're not going to entertain that. We are not going to entertain that.
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Right. So, Bex, thank you so much for your incredible research on this. I really appreciate you. And we will be back with the second installment next week. Yeah. Thanks, everybody. This episode of Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files was hosted and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Dr. Becks is my co-host and the lead researcher for the Ratty Children's case.
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Mariah Gossett is our supervising producer. Greta Stromquist is our producer and editor. Aaron Ajayi is our fact checker. And thanks also to Nola Karmouche for administrative support.
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True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. Today, we have the first part in our new series about the lawsuit in San Diego involving Ratty Children's. This is a frequently requested topic for Case Files, and I'm incredibly thankful to Dr. Becks, who is taking on the lion's share of the research and reporting on this one.
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Yeah, really good caveats. And I think, again, this has yet to go to trial yet. And so I think we will learn more if it does. And also, there does appear to have been a police investigation. So we are going to request those records as well, just to get as much information as we possibly can. So for today, you're going to walk us through sort of what we know about
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So I will say that we are starting off with four episodes about this case to get you up to speed on what's going on. But much like Kowalski, this is going to be parts one through four of question mark number of episodes, because we will certainly continue our coverage as we learn more about this case and as it unfolds in real time.
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Yeah. And so obviously, you know, Bex, as you said, these details about her medical journey are coming from the court filings. So I think we can probably safely assume that this is more or less the parents telling of the story, right? Because we do not have at this point, the medical documentation to compare it with. But certainly, you know, the beginning of a story with
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some obstetrical complications and a premature birth is just absolutely ubiquitous. We hear about that all the time. And also worth saying that lots of people experience infertility and lots of people have premature babies.
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So again, just because something is a red flag does not mean that it is evidence in and of itself, but certainly immediately sticks out to us because we've just heard that beginning to the story so many times.
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Sorry, was she at Rady's the whole time or did she start her treatment at a different hospital?
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And before we jump in, I really want to thank you because it is truly incredible that this show is able to support as much original reporting as it does. This kind of coverage takes a lot of resources in terms of time, fact checking, interviews, editing and production, legal guidance, etc. And I feel so grateful that we, as an independent show, are able to do it.
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Bex, can you just remind us, for those listeners that did not spend 8,000 hours of their life reading documents in the Kowalskis, what is CRPS?
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So the complaint basically up until this point is she has this initial injury where her There's a surgery and another surgery. And the thing that is keeping her out of school and coming back to the hospital repeatedly is complaints of pain. It's like refractory pain that's not responding to whatever treatments they're trying.
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Do you say data or data? I think I say data, but for some reason now I can't think of it. Anyway, when it comes to science and medicine, we love data. When it comes to my wireless plan, I use a lot of it, especially when I'm in the field reporting a story, which is why I've recently made the switch to Mint Mobile. Their premium wireless plans start at just $15 a month.
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Now, there were some objective findings early on with C. When she was about two years old, she had an abnormal MRI that indicated possible static encephalopathy, which could be an indicator for cerebral palsy. Emphasis on could. There was never a definitive diagnosis of CP, and cerebral palsy, like many things, is a clinical diagnosis. There is no definitive test.
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The vast majority of the various diagnoses Z received were based on Sophie's reports, which, as friend of the show Dr. Becks, a pediatric hospitalist and MBP expert, explains is almost always the case.
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But during this appointment, my mom was sitting in the room when the doctor told Megan the opposite, that they should give my nephew more time with a less invasive tube. They wanted to be judicious, for obvious reasons, about rushing an infant into a surgical procedure. The next day, Megan gave me an update on his health. During this time, this was nearly the only thing we talked about.
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As for C's wheelchair, leg braces, and gait trainers, we have more definitive information about whether those were necessary. A letter from Seattle Children's, the Department of Children and Families, says this about a June 20th, 2019 visit to Children's where C arrived in a wheelchair. Hartman was told that CH needed absolutely no braces, orthotics, wheelchairs, etc.
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According to the records, after the examination, Hartman was told that CH actually needed normal activity and play in order to develop appropriate muscle strength and physical development. Use of mobility-limiting devices, like orthotics and wheelchairs, can delay development in children. making them dependent on care providers.
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Nonetheless, on June 24, 2019, Hartman brought CH in with leg braces on and in a wheelchair. There are many instances of C being seen in a wheelchair after this date, including during a professional photo shoot she did with her equine therapy team. Wheelchairs of dubious necessity are a hallmark of these cases.
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Maya Kowalski, Justina Pelletier, and perhaps most famously, Gypsy Rose Blanchard, all had wheelchairs that they did not need. It's a dramatic prop. A child in a wheelchair is something that immediately elicits concern and sympathy. In nearly all of the fundraising videos and images, C is in a wheelchair.
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But then, when they were off camera, it was a completely different story, as their next-door neighbor reports here.
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The charade of an unnecessary wheelchair isn't just about having useful props for attention-seeking and fundraising. It's also a piece of the deep and relentless psychological abuse endemic to these cases. These props function as a reminder to the child that they are sick, that they are different, that the activities of their peers are out of reach for them.
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They are reminders of who is in control of the story. And in Sophie's case, these props were just one small piece of the dire story she was weaving for her youngest daughter. It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something. First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question.
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And she told me that, unfortunately, it looked like he was going to need the G-tube surgery. I remember this moment so vividly that I can still picture exactly where I was, driving on the wooded road by the lake that my parents live on. I can still feel the bottom dropping out of my stomach. For once, it was there in black and white.
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And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar. Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me. Thank you so much for having me. You can book in-network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty, from mental health to dental health, primary care, and more.
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So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. ZocDoc.com slash nobody. You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes. And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Summer is coming.
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The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still raining gross, which it can truly be any time of year. And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill.
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And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.
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In a continuation of her early blogging efforts, Sophie was very active on social media during this time. And as with many parents, she took to Instagram in the mid 2010s, where she kept prolific accounts on her own social media profile, as well as one dedicated to see. I know that many parents do this sort of thing in a much more benign way.
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But I would like to go on the record and say, please don't. Don't make family accounts chronicling your child's every move. Don't start writing in their voice. And please, don't put pictures of your children in vulnerable medical situations on the internet. Just don't.
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Megan was lying, and the consequences this time were too scary to ignore. And truthfully, this feeling of wrong-footedness is still with me, part of the debris of this disaster. I don't want to give you the wrong idea about the state of my life or my mental health. My life is really good. It's also true that this stuff with my sister, I'm not over it. You don't get over it.
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During this time, Sophie was posting constantly about C's issues, much of it in the name of, quote, raising awareness about C's rare neurological condition. But she also included numerous photos of C's feeding tube and talked about it quite a bit.
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According to Sophie, this intervention was recommended by Mary Bridge Hospital, which is located in Tacoma, just south of where Sophie was living at the time.
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These interventions that Sophie is describing are not inconsequential. Both involve surgeries and carry a risk of infection.
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The G2 procedure in particular is ubiquitous in medical child abuse cases, and it's especially terrifying in this context because it gives a perpetrator direct access to introduced medications and other substances, as we saw in the Brittany Phillips case in season two, where she poisoned her daughter.
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And once again, Sophie's consistent reports to doctors and others about C's ability to eat or keep down food did not match up with what others observed. Here's Sophie's mother, Anne.
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Sophie's reports to the doctors about C's food issues are prolific, and she pushes hard for escalating interventions during this time, from the G-tube to the more invasive GJ-tube that C had for a time. But again, others observed a different relationship between C and food. Here is Sophie's father, Art, reflecting on his time with his granddaughter.
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When you find yourself caught up in something like this, you're just never the same. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.
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During this period, C was spending a lot of time at hippotherapy. That is physical therapy with horses, not hippos. And she appeared to be thriving so much there that there was talk of her pursuing dressage. This is the ancient sport of fancy horse dancing. And if you are thinking, wow, that sounds like an extremely expensive hobby, you are correct.
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Anyway, here is one of C's hippotherapy providers. Talks about food all the time.
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Starbucks, and I had whatever. And this is another member of Sophie's church on a call with a detective. And just a note that she is with her child in this phone call, so you will hear a baby in the background. Relatable.
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These reports are haunting because they echo what we've heard from the family of Alyssa Wayburn in season two. And this detail about a child being able to eat normally and somehow still supposedly needing a G-tube, again, it's ubiquitous in the research about medical child abuse. And unfortunately, deeply familiar from the two investigations into my sister, Megan.
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As I said at the top of this episode, it was Megan's push for this very intervention that brought the whole thing crashing down for my family. As far as we know, she never did end up getting a G-tube placed for my nephew, but it wasn't long after everything blew up with my family that Megan got pregnant again. That baby didn't make it.
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And not seven months later, she had my niece, who would go on to get a G-tube.
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Nobody should believe me is proud to partner this month with the American civil liberties union with more than 1.1 million members, 500 staff attorneys, thousands of volunteer attorneys and offices throughout the nation. The ACLU is at the forefront of fighting government abuse and defending the freedoms. We all hold dear freedoms of speech and religion, a woman's right to an abortion.
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Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here...
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the right to due process, citizens' rights to privacy, and much more. In the two months since Donald Trump took office, the ACLU has filed over 20 lawsuits to protect people from the administration's abuse of power and attempts to strip away our most fundamental rights. And right now, they are at the forefront of protecting immigrants' rights.
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The ACLU sued to stop Trump's attacks on birthright citizenship, to end the deportation of immigrants to Guantanamo Bay, and they're providing legal counsel to those currently detained there. They also block him from using an archaic wartime law, the Alien Enemies Act from 1798, to arbitrarily deport immigrants and deprive them of due process.
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The ACLU is also partnering with the legal teams fighting to free Mahmoud Khalil and Rumesa Ozturk who were targeted by ICE for exercising their legally protected rights to free speech and political dissent. The ACLU is fighting for all of us, and with so much on their plate, they could really use your support. So head to aclu.org backslash action at the link in our show notes.
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You can donate to help the cause as well as find volunteer opportunities and actions you can take in just minutes to help defend the country we all love. This ad was provided pro bono. To help us get some more context around G-tubes and normal eating behaviors, we spoke to Dr. Jill Glick, an experienced child abuse pediatrician from the University of Chicago.
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Is there any medical scenario where like you could have a child that is like going to the neighbor's house and eating pizza, but they still need a G-tube? And like that's like that all these people are observing this child eating normally?
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Right. So, I mean, that is the scenario that we're looking at where it's like people are observing the kid, yeah, not cheating on their day. And so the parent is saying, oh, they shouldn't be doing that. But then like, or sometimes they're saying it's fine.
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Rather than escalating for an even more severe intervention. Right.
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This is where people looking at these cases, unfortunately, and perhaps especially the judges tasked with making the calls, get stopped up. If a child didn't need this surgery, why on earth would the doctors do it? And the answer turns out to be pretty straightforward, because the parent wasn't telling the truth.
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you should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
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Sophie consistently pushes for these interventions by reporting constant, severe vomiting, vomiting up blood, inability to drink water without aspirating, and C choking on her food. And on several occasions, she brings C to the ER, claiming that she's dehydrated because of this alleged chronic vomiting, only to have C's clinical exam show that in fact, she's just fine.
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This is also when Sophie begins her pattern of doctor shopping, as well as false and exaggerated reports. For example, in 2016, when C was just over two years old, she underwent three separate swallow studies to determine how well she was able to tolerate eating by mouth. The first test came back normal, though Sophie swiftly reported to the next doctor that the study came back abnormal.
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The second of the three tests came back with mild findings, but a G-tube was never recommended. They simply suggested adding some thickener to C's liquids as a precaution. Sophie, however, reported that this study showed severe issues with swallowing. A third swallow study two months later came back once again normal, no issues.
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But Sophie argues with this, saying that C is simply able to, quote, perform the ability to swallow when she's in a hospital setting. And if you don't think that that sounds medically plausible, you're correct. It's not. And a lot of this false reporting is happening from one provider to the next. So you may be asking, why didn't these hospitals just get all the records from each other?
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Well, they can't do that without a parent's permission. And it's via this pattern of lies and exaggerations that Sophie eventually succeeds in getting a G2 placed on July 10, 2017, less than two weeks after receiving a provisional diagnosis of alternating hemiplegia of childhood from Mary Bridge Hospital.
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Sophie quickly connects with the Cure AHC Foundation, and this group posts a photo of C on their Facebook page the day of her G-tube surgery, asking for well wishes. C looks up from a hospital bed, a pacifier in her mouth, clutching a teddy bear with stitching that reads Cure AHC.
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This foundation would go on to provide funding for the family to travel to Duke Medical Center in North Carolina to visit their renowned clinic dedicated to the disorder. This pattern of reporting from Sophie can be seen clearly in a note from the doctor who ordered the G2 placement at Mary Bridge Hospital. Quote, Mom feels strongly that she needs an access point to get her fluids for AHC.
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Mom also is not sure if she will tolerate boluses or fluids in these episodes of vomiting and presumed dehydration. Mom feels that having an access point will help during AHC episodes and would like her to be on continuous feeds overnight to maintain her hydration and support her fluid goals and nutritional outcomes.
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This information was provided by Hartman, though during objective observation, CH was never seen to have any issues with eating, drinking, vomiting, or dehydration. So you'll notice within these notes, there's a lot of mom reports, mom feels, mom says this. Dr. Glick reminds us why the parental history is so important in these cases.
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On New Year's Eve 2009, three years to the day when my sister dramatically lost the twin pregnancy that never was, my very real nephew arrived significantly ahead of schedule. Premature births are a nearly ubiquitous detail in these cases. And as in other cases I've seen, this birth was followed by a cascade of problems around his eating and his development.
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Now, you might be wondering why all this communication hasn't been made simpler in the age of electronic medical records. But it turns out those haven't been quite the godsend that some hoped for.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
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Judy, whatever her name is, is Judy Faulkner, founder of Epic, which revolutionized electronic medical records and is currently used for the records of 325 million people. This product made her a billionaire. But a side note before anyone makes a wanted poster with her face on it, she has pledged to give away 99% of her $7.7 billion fortune to charity. Good on you, Judy.
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But as Dr. Glick says here, because there are multiple proprietary systems for electronic records that don't integrate with each other, this is far from a fix. And it's these very cracks in the system that perpetrators exploit, where they see just enough doubt and confusion to keep pushing their story through. And Sophie does push this story of C through to the G-tube surgery.
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But she doesn't stop there. It's not long before she's requesting TPN, or total parenteral nutrition, where a child receives intravenous nutrition via a port. And throughout these early years of C's life, the evidence mounts that Sophie is taking her daughter down a very dark road. Next time...
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Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact-checking by Erin Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. When we last left Sophie, she was deep into gymnastics mom mode with her older daughter, Em, driving hours each way for all-day training sessions, all while somehow also caring for her younger daughter, C, whose health was, according to Sophie, increasingly fragile.
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And somehow, again, she was doing all this with no income. Sophie had also found a new church congregation to lean on, and this one was a bit of a different flavor than her hometown church, Haven.
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This new church, Pursuit Northwest, would become a pillar of Sophie's support system here in Seattle. So we wanted to get some additional context about this place from our evangelical history expert, Dr. Lauren Turek.
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
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For months, my parents and I had this terrible feeling that something was off, but I remember it being so hard to nail down. Megan is very smart, and she was a nurse for some period of time, so she would explain everything about my nephew's health in a way that would be extremely hard to question.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Their lead pastor, Russell Johnson, is young with a shock of bleach blonde hair, and he wears a leather jacket and a ball cap on stage. Recently, he's been seen sporting a red cap that says, make prayer great again. So this church really makes no mystery of its political leanings.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
And from what we could surmise in our conversations with those who knew her, these were political values that Sophie shared. And given her evangelical background and affiliations, it would be surprising if she didn't. Pursuit is a mega church with rock concert vibes, and Pastor Russell's sermons, they are intense.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
Beyond the gym that they were spending a lot of time in, this church was the one major place that Sophie and her girls found community.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
This is from the police interview with Cassandra Johnson, a fellow member of Pursuit Northwest.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
This fundraiser for the wheelchair accessible van was one of the biggest ticket items that Sophie fundraised for. But members of this church remember other smaller things, such as gifts for the girls and just the general sense that their hearts really went out to this family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
And her version of things was usually the only version we had, because she rarely let anyone else go to the doctor with her. And then, for reasons I will never know, she finally did let my mother go to one of my nephew's gastroenterologist appointments with her. And it was during this appointment that a thread came loose that ended up unraveling the whole thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
And not to keep harping on all of Sophie's driving times, but this church is all the way up in Snohomish, which can easily be an hour's drive from where they were living during this time in Renton. Again, just never making things easy on herself.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
Sophie is taking her younger daughter, C, to the doctor a lot during this time, and she begins doctor hopping, taking C between Mary Bridge Hospital on the south end and Seattle Children's on the north side of Seattle, and then flying out to Duke in North Carolina to see their renowned specialists after C receives a clinical diagnosis of alternating hemiplegia of childhood.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
Sophie also claimed that C had severe mobility issues due to her age C, that she would sometimes not be able to walk because of weakness or even be completely paralyzed for hours or days at a time. It's not clear when exactly Sophie started putting C in a wheelchair and leg braces. A hospital noted their use as early as 2016 when C was just two years old. Here is how Sophie describes it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
And the leg braces were a bit of a focal point for C, as one mom from their gym remembers.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
One of the gymnastics moms also remembers seeing the wheelchair.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
And one of C's school aides, who worked with her as a physical therapist via Zoom during COVID, also recounts. She had a personal wheelchair.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
Now, it's worth noting that not everyone who uses a wheelchair or mobility aid needs it all the time. Nonetheless, these discrepancies are notable. And Sophie, in her own words, says that even the doctors doubted her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
At this point, my nephew was still in the first year of his life, and he'd been diagnosed as failure to thrive, meaning that he wasn't gaining weight as he should have been. And because of this, he had a nasal gastric feeding tube, i.e. a feeding tube that went in through his nose. Megan had been telling us that her son was going to need a surgically implanted G-tube.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
And sure, you would need a doctor's approval to get aids through insurance. But as C's PT noted, many of these items were purchased via private funds.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
As for the wheelchair, this appears to have been paid for by a local commercial painting contractor. In a video posted on the company's YouTube page, they say that they had the, quote, privilege of playing a part in C's life. We were able to donate the finances to acquire this amazing wheelchair, which happens to be in her favorite color. Here's Sophie in that same video.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep04: When the Cameras are On
But many of the folks who were seeing C regularly, like her neighbor, had questions about how much she actually needed this chair.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something. First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me, but scheduling appointments with dentists, doctors, therapists can be a real hurdle, which is why I lean on ZocDoc for help. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high-quality in-network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
You can book in-network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty for mental health to dental health, primary care, and more. You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
Choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. So no phone tech. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. sockdoc.com slash nobody. You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
With more than 1.1 million members, 500 staff attorneys, thousands of volunteer attorneys, and offices throughout the nation, the ACLU is at the forefront of fighting government abuse and defending the freedoms we all hold dear. We love that. And something we care about very deeply over here is rights and protections for disabled folks, which is the subject of today's episode.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and we've got something special for you today. An episode from our friends at the ACLU's fantastic podcast, At Liberty with W. Kamau Bell. And our very own superstar, Mariah Gossett, is also a producer on the show. Now, we are big, big fans of the American Civil Liberties Union over here. We are actually partnering with them this month.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
The news is overwhelming right now, to put it mildly. So I really love At Liberty because it makes the issues accessible and importantly, tells you what you can do about them. So go check out their other episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, head over to aclu.org backslash action to donate and or volunteer with the ACLU.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
We will be back next week with our conversation with Dr. Mary Sanders about the Rainey Children's case. And we are less than a month away from our season six premiere. And once again, you will get all eight episodes the day of launch if you subscribe on Patreon or Apple Podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: At Liberty
You'll also get access there to our twice-monthly subscriber-only show, Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours, where we are talking this month about the notorious Elizabeth Finch. And with that, here's At Liberty with W. Kamau Bell. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So I just wanted to say that. And we do offer an ad free option on our subscription on our subscription channel. But I did, you know, obviously, I don't think anybody. Ads are anyone's favorite part of a show. We try to work them in. You know, we take a lot of care with like our ad breaks and where we put them and all that stuff to make it as, you know, as the least disruptive possible.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But there's some cold hard facts here. about capitalism that unfortunately are unavoidable. And these fine people on this call and our two other staff members, you know, I do like to pay them. I do think that that is the right thing to do. And in order to do that, I have to keep the revenue of the show going. So, you know, we do, this is like an expensive show to make, especially our main seasons.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
We do a almost all original reporting. We do field work. And I'm extremely grateful that I'm able to make this show independently. It is just feels like kind of a miracle that I'm able to do that. And I'm able to do that because of how many people listen to the show and how many people sit through our ads and use our offer codes and join our subscription channels and stuff like that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So mostly I just want to say thank you all for doing that. That support is how I keep making this show. And yeah, I mean, that's really all I have to say about ads. That's probably the only time I'll ever address that comment. I think every podcaster does get that at some point completely.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
No, we are keeping it. We are keeping that in. I am sending it to Lumi. If anyone has anything else that they would like to share, I'm wearing something from Quince right now. It's true. I do actually like my sponsors. Y'all, those hosts right now, they are hard to get.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
That's amazing. So to all of you who are complaining about ads there, you just got one. Amazing, amazing. But yes, we should do like a sort of like business of podcasting episode just as a bonus. That would be really fun. If y'all are interested in that, let me know because it is a wild, wild, wild industry. So crazy. Changes every five minutes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So, you know, just know that your support is helping us survive out here, truly. So the other thing that I got a lot of feelings about from our listeners was was sort of this notion of me kind of, quote, getting political. And yeah, I mean, I will sort of choose my words carefully here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, some of this was just sort of complaints about me mentioning like the existence of race, saying a person's race. saying what politics a church had and were sort of projecting. You know, and those details, so I'll just say with those details, like those details were germane to this case. This was a case that involved the evangelical church.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
It involved Sophie sort of aligning herself with this social movement and that social movement and sort of having these seemingly very contradicting beliefs. And then in terms of race, I mean, that played a massive role in this case also. So, you know...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And the child protective system, which also has, you know, obviously with the government, it's a government agency.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me and if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me Andrea Dunlop your humble narrator of this very show I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah. And thank you, Maria. And, you know, in terms of the evangelical stuff, because we did hear from a lot of people about this in particular, you know, we took, and again, this is something, you know, that Nicole is more versed in than I am. We had Dr. Turek to talk to about this stuff because this is not, I'm not an evangelical. I wasn't raised in like a church going household.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I really wanted to be respectful. You know, I don't want to loop all evangelicals together. I don't want to loop all Christians together. And, you know, if I didn't strike that balance perfectly in every single episode of the show, that's just, you know, that's kind of the nature of the beast. But we certainly tried our best to be thoughtful about that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And also, like, you know, in terms of just the is this an apolitical show or not? I certainly appreciate that we have, you know, listeners from really all places on all points on the political spectrum. And I really that's something I appreciate about this show. And with that said, you know, none of the things that we talk about on the show are apolitical.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
These are you know, we talk about medicine and health care and government systems and entities. Now, with that said, I don't feel that either side of the political spectrum gets it right specifically about this abuse. Um, so I'm not really championing like, you know, the rights take on this or the left's take on it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
It's like some politicians get it right in some ways, others get it right in other ways, you know, but it's not like, it's not like anybody's doing a good job with this. So it's kind of like everyone is, is, is open to critique from, from my perspective. Um, but I just think, you know, on a broader sort of thing, because, you know, something that I also got, uh, got feedback on, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, was the ads that we were running for Equality Texas and something that I mentioned, you know, late last year was that we're going to start doing these pro bono ads to, you know, really just be a way to support, you know, groups that are really. Could you support at this time? Yeah. Yeah, the groups that really need support at this time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I'm trying to use my platform to help folks that are really going to be impacted by this current administration and all of the things that are happening right now. And I will just say kind of as a as a you know, I'm not going to make this into a current events show. This is a show about a specific thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I will sort of probably only bring up politics when it is germane to what we're talking about. Right. But my feelings about what's going on right now in the world are not neutral. And I don't owe it to anybody to be neutral. And this is my platform that I built and I'll use it as I see fit. And this is something that I feel a responsibility to do right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And, again, I try to be as open-minded as possible. And we have different voices on the show. And that's something that I really appreciate. I will continue to do that. But, you know, I didn't start a podcast because I don't have a lot to say. I do have a lot to say. So. So that's that for the moment. Anybody else? Do you feel like weighing in on this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a really good point. And I just want to say, too, like, I, I'm very open to feedback. I really enjoy having, you know, constructive, thoughtful feedback from listeners. But, you know, the sort of shut up about politics stuff, like, I'm just, that's not something I'm going to take.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah. And with Pursuit, you know, probably will come as a surprise to no one on this call or listening to this. You know, I find a lot of their beliefs extremely objectionable. And I think those people at that church were very victimized by Sophie. They were very exploited by her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I, you know, from what I've heard sort of talking to folks on background, like that church really did care about Sophie and her girls. And I think I can make room for that very good intention that they had in supporting them, even as I disagree with them. And that's just the kind of nuance. that I think we sometimes miss.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
There is a lot going on in the world at the moment, and especially if you're a working parent like I am, you probably have a running list of things I really need to do that you forget about until suddenly you wake up in the middle of the night and remember that you haven't done them yet.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
If getting life insurance is on that list, our new sponsor, SelectQuote, can help you check this one off in as little as 15 minutes. SelectQuote is one of America's leading insurance brokers with nearly 40 years of experience, helping over 2 million customers find over $700 billion in coverage since 1985. And they can help you find the right policy that fits your family's needs and budget.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Plus, if you're in good health, they work with carriers that can get you same-day coverage with no medical exam required. We all know that life insurance is important. So take a break from doom scrolling and focus on something you can actually control for a few minutes and head to selectquote.com and a licensed insurance agent will call you right away to help you get a policy set up.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Get the right life insurance for you for less at selectquote.com slash nobody. Go to selectquote.com slash nobody today to get started. That's selectquote.com slash nobody. You can find all this information in our show notes. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa. What followed was a year of upheaval, violence and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed. Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. So on to a much less controversial topic, race.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But I wanted to just talk a little bit about some of the reactions to this. So this was very interesting to kind of hear from people about their reactions to some of the behaviors that we talked about Sophie having with her girls. And I think a lot of folks kind of just felt a big ick about Sophie.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
some of the behaviors we talked about with Sophie and just kind of gave us interesting feedback about their own experiences, either in this adoptive world or just as, like we had one that said, I'm a mom of a biracial child and I find it really icky and uncomfortable how often I see white moms posting about their black or biracial child, like, OMG, look at me, I'm so amazing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Look at me take 6,000 videos of me doing their hair. Aren't I just the best white mom ever? Very fetishizing. Um, and we had kind of a lot of comments that were, that were in this vein.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. All right. Well. Hello, it's Andrea, and I am here today with the entire Season 5 editorial team, which is so exciting to do our mailbag episode.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Um, and then on the other side, we sort of had some that were like, oh, I don't know that these incidents that you're sort of discussing about like the chalk in the hair or them being the only, you know, child at, uh, the only black child that a gymnastics meet were really like, you know, that big of a deal or, or whatever. So we kind of had both, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And, you know, even this listener, which I think there's some validity to this, right? Like saying like teaching a black child about social inequities and awareness, lack of diversity in sports, that's something that should be taught. And I think, you know, there is a lot of nuance here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
This wasn't something that I felt super comfortable like weighing in one way or the other, whether these things were a big deal, which was why, you know, which was why we asked Chad to weigh in on it as that's his area of expertise. So, yeah, I just wanted to kind of get everybody's
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
everybody's take on like I didn't want to just go too hard on on Sophie if there wasn't any evidence that this was the case you know you don't want to just like make assumptions about someone's intentions however you know we had we had quite a bit to work with in terms of what people told us about her and also her memoir which obviously Erin and Mariah both read as well so I just kind of love to hear from the team on your impressions of that piece of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
The only people from the rest of the team who are not here is Nola Karmouche, my assistant, who does all kinds of tasks for the show and helps keep everything running, and our wonderful audio engineer, Robin Edgar-Schultz. Shout out to those ladies as well. But with me here, I have Mariah Gossett, Nicole Hill, Erin Ajayi, and Greta Stromquist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So if y'all could go around starting with Mariah and just tell us who you are.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, yeah, no, and I think we can kind of get into that next. We got quite a few comments about the gymnastics piece of things. But something I did want to share, I talked to Chalice Howard, who was our source that, you know, eventually came on the record, and we got so many nice comments about her. We'll get into this as well.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, something that she shared with me, which I thought this was so interesting and sort of in, you know, through my lens of someone who studies perpetrators of this crime, is is that Sophie, you know, and they were, she was living across the country, right? So they had this relationship that was very close, but they were not around each other a ton.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And she was telling me that, you know, what Sophie was sort of reporting to her was that she, and you know, and some of this may have been happening. It's sort of hard to gauge. But that she was making a big effort to, like, keep the girls in touch with their Zambian heritage and, you know, connect them with that community and really, like, be thoughtful about that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And that she seemed very thoughtful about being the white parent of two, you know, black children from Zambia. And, you know, Chalice is also a white parent of two black children that are there. They're from, you know, they're from the United States. So so different. But that was something that was she talked about being a big point of connection between the two of them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I think what is so what really comes through in Sophie's case and that I think is really present in all of these cases is that people who engage in these behaviors are opportunists. So they are going to put on a mask that suits the scene they're in. Right. And I think we could really see this with Sophie's behavior.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
pivots around you know being part of this um you know church pursuit that has these very um you know very extreme sort of far-right political beliefs that again yes like that's not a guess on my part they're putting it on billboards that i sometimes drive by um
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, and then sort of having this strange reaction to being like, well, they were just not on board enough with, you know, Black Lives Matter and then suddenly deciding that this is not a safe place for her black children, which seems very bizarre reaction. Right. And I'm like, well, this to me is evidence of someone that is just going to use everything. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And then even the way that she used the investigation into Seattle Children's for systemic racism. I think it all just sort of points to like this opportunism. Right. That she's going to use. whatever she has.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And then I think the thing that has really struck me after covering so many of these cases that is so profoundly sad and just manifests in a whole bunch of different ways in every case differently is that they're just not people that feel empathy for their children. Or anyone else, I don't think.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I mean, I, this is something I've talked about at length with my colleagues on the psychologist and psychiatrist side, you know, and like, that I just think that if you're able to put children through this, that you're not really someone who's feeling empathy on the level that one would hope.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And so I think that that then sort of enables someone to like use whatever resources are available to them at the moment. And so I think we see a lot of evidence with that. And so that I think was what struck me about those,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
incidence of like the thing with the hair and the thing with it was like that that it was not about her children it was about her it was calling attention to her as a white parent of black children and like as that sort of heroic figure well friends it's 2025 it's here this year is going to be Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me and if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me Andrea Dunlop your humble narrator of this very show I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Well, OK, yes. So I wanted to talk just a little bit. We did get a lot of reactions to the gymnastics stuff. And Aaron, you read us that quote from a listener. And yeah, I think that this was this was something that obviously stuck out to all of us as we were looking into this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Just the idea of sort of taking a child and putting them in this very difficult, extreme competitive environment. And I think we had some questions about just Em's role and her relationship with C and kind of what their relationship between the two of us.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I mean, certainly the impression that I got and the impression that I've gotten from how these other cases play out is that often an older sibling is kind of a forgotten child. I think especially as And is no longer doing gymnastics. You know, I worry that she sort of doesn't have a role anymore. And again, that's sort of speculation on my part.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But just again, having sort of seen this pattern, I mean, I think some of that came through in her writing that was excerpted in the in the investigative report that she seemed very eager to. to, you know, to be this gymnast in order to get her mom's approval. And it seemed very clear that that was kind of a big part of their dynamic.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And then also just that, you know, in terms of her relationship with With C, you know, I think it came very clear even from the information that we have and then certainly from talking to Chalice, you know, who knows these girls very well, that Em really, really loves C and that those two have a really strong bond, which I hope is something that, you know, that will endure.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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But yeah, what was kind of everybody's thoughts on Em? I know we had a lot of conversations about Em behind the scenes.
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Yeah, 100%. I mean, as a parent of a six-year-old, you know, which is the age that Em was when she was getting into gymnastics, and just, like, I know I harped on that so much in the episodes, but, like, the driving distance. The driving. Just because, like, that, you know, that was where my sister went to college was in Bellingham.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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This was a really fun episode to record because I got to bring my entire editorial team on the mic with me. Podcasting is a collaborative art form, and I am so lucky to have such a talented and lovely team. We are hard at work on our new full season, which will be coming out this June.
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So I actually, and I live much further, you know, I live further north than where Sophie was going for gymnastics. But, like, I know that drive, you know? And, like, that is a long-ass drive. And just the, like, sort of...
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Amazing. Thank you so much, Mariah. And yes, I can confirm that my interview with one of us was the single most fun podcast interview I've ever done. I don't think I've ever laughed that hard. I mean, probably not surprising since I don't usually laugh in interviews I'm doing about the show. So that was very nice. It was a nice palate cleanser. Erin Ajayi, let's hear from you.
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Like I think that was what it that was like what struck me as part of like the pattern of this behavior is like the like looking for hardship anywhere and like looking to make your life either really harder or seem harder or like.
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you know of just like for no good reason right and i i gather that you know from folks we spoke to on background that she sophie explained this as like well you know em has all these issues and this is the only way that like this is the only thing that helps is to have this but then again i mean like that doesn't that that that explanation doesn't make a lot of sense on its face but also like again it's like it's the competitive gym it's like
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You know, yeah, like you can have especially for like six, seven year olds. It's like you can take them to a gym that just like they just like do cartwheels and little jumps and tumbles and whatever and like play around. And then there's this program, which was just, you know, of a different level entirely. So, yeah, I think that that part was really that part was really striking about the story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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No. And that was one of the things actually the AHC parents talked about in some of the literature I read and like some of the, you know, the documentary that we watched, like was the challenges of transportation.
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Was this sort of like, you know, the time bomb thing, really that expression, at least the way that I interpreted it, which seems to be on point, like that after talking to the expert, was the unpredictability of it. You know, that it was like one of the parents talked about, well, it's hard to even like take them out to the grocery store because, you know,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
if they have an episode, like, there while you're out and about, you know, or while you're in the car, it's going to be really brutal. And so you're just thinking, like, you have this child that has this thing where they could, like, go into episode.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And, you know, Sophie's reporting that she's going into episode kind of all day, every day, off and on, or being in episode for, you know, whatever, a month or whatever she claimed, you know, at times. And, like, why would you then put yourself in a situation where you're putting that child in a car two hours each way. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And so on the one hand, either she doesn't have that condition, which I strongly believe that's the case, right? We had that signed affidavit, a sworn affidavit from Dr. Wainwright to that effect that this child does not have AHC. Or if they do have AHC, that seems incredibly cruel. So either way, bad, right? Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point, Erin. And I think that was where, you know, when we were sort of talking about like, oh, could competitive gymnastics be its own podcast? You know, like that's an archetype that I think people are really familiar with, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like the parent that projects their sports dreams, either what they did achieve or what they didn't achieve, you know, onto their child and then sort of pushes them in. And I think that that, you know, that is also something that can become abusive in its own right. I mean, I grew up playing tennis and was quite a competitive player and played in college.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I saw certainly a lot of and again, that's a very like that's a very like expensive, intense, individualistic sport. So certainly some kind of parallels there. And I mean, I just remember like I have these images in my head of like, you know, parents were like screaming at nine year olds after they lost a match and stuff like that. So it's like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I think that's another way that parents don't let their kids be their own individual humans. And I think as we're sort of talking about this, yeah, this bifurcation between C being the sick one and M being the hyper-capable one, neither of them just gets to be a kid. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like, and it's really, really important to just like, it's like watching, you know, watching my kids grow up and like Aaron, you're a mom as well. Like, you know, it's really important to just like that. That's a lot of work. Like it's a lot of work being a kid. Like, you know, you're just like learning how to like be a person and like, that's a huge job, you know?
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You're learning how to, like, you know, my daughter's in kindergarten. Like, she's learning how to, like, have friendships and socialize. And it's just like, this is just a lot. Like, you just realize you're, like, there's so much to take on. And so it's like you have to be really careful, like, not to pile a bunch of other stuff on them, you know. And I'm sort of, like, very sensitive to that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And I think it's just another way in which people, like, sometimes don't really see their kids as humans. I think they see them as reflections of themselves. They see them as, like –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, kind of like trophies or like I think that so I do think there's like some really interesting crossover and certainly like Sophie coming from that competitive athletic background certainly could sort of have affected the flavor of the way that this this particular dynamic played out. All right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So we had a lot of questions about like, you know, we had a couple questions about like the status of these lawsuits. So as far as we've been able to tell, the only piece that is still making its way through the court system is the lawsuit against Renton PD. So as soon as we find out what the outcome of that is, we will certainly let everybody know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Um, the rest of it, the part against children's has been dismissed. And yet one of our listeners on the Patreon pointed out that like, yeah, that part certainly, you know, we said it in the show, but that part certainly didn't make the news. Like you cannot find that information except for public records request.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And now obviously the show, um, actually, you know what, before I get to this one, um, I just wanted to talk about our chalice, our chalice, um, Our lovely Chalice. So this was our surprise ninth episode of the season.
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Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, this was I've been speaking to Chalice, as I mentioned on the show, really frequently since the fall and had been, you know, communicating with the group about her and, you know, not someone we thought was going to go on the record initially. And that was quite an evolution for her. We had such amazing feedback.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
This was by far – this is some of the most positive feedback I've gotten actually from the entire length of the show was just people's reactions to this episode. People really loved hearing from her. And I think there was like a bunch of stuff that resonated with people from the Chalice episode. I think just her love for the girls and even for Sophie like really came through.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And also just I think it really – Part of what really resonated with people, which again, I think in the context of kind of what's going on, is just listening to someone who changed their mind about something. you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And so I just wanted to kind of hear from everybody about like, yeah, this was a really like unexpected thing to have this season where we did not go in with any, you know, close sources, um, and didn't know kind of who would come through.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And yeah, I just, I just wanted to get everybody's kind of take on like watching that kind of connection happened behind the scenes and that her decision to go public.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Or really, more specifically, that this is not abuse, right? It's not abuse, right. Because the kid can be sick and it can be abuse. Those two things can... But yes, I mean, like, me too. Like, I think it would be so fascinating to go into a season and be like, oh, this person really, this really was...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. And today is our season five mailbag episode. Thank you so much to everyone who listened to this season and took the time to leave us comments and questions. We got by far the most feedback we have ever gotten on this season. And I am just really grateful that people are so engaged with this show. It's amazing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, I loved that image that Chalice shared with us in that episode of when Sophie was the only one in focus, she could ignore it. And then the minute that the kids came into focus.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I just thought that was such a beautiful way to describe what this is because I think it's so hard to get your feet under you when you're in one of these situations because you are being gaslit and you are being told this story. And
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, and then it's just like if you just think about like what is happening to the kids, I think then it's like it really registers as a kind of like last last question. And then I also would love to know just if there's anything like as you guys read through, like the comments, if there's anything that stuck out to you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But like, you know, we get we get asked a lot, you know, in response to like all of the show questions. Like, what can we do to prevent this? And the truth is, I don't know. I think conversations around prevention of child abuse are so necessary. I had a couple of people on, someone from Prevent Child Abuse America, which is a fantastic and large organization that's been around since the 1970s.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And they've talked a lot about prevention of other forms of abuse. Like physical abuse, those things are really exacerbated by a lot of factors that actually can be controlled for by parents having enough support, by dealing with mental health issues, substance abuse issues, poverty, adjacent issues.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
There's a lot of abuse and neglect that happens that is very much tied to those things and that can actually be solved for, not easy to solve, especially when we're not – having a moment where we feel like giving resources to those things. But this one, I don't know. I truly don't know what can really be done to prevent other than to just separate.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I don't and it may just be my lens of like I do look at extreme cases a lot. I think there are probably you know, there is all of the professionals I've talked to. There's there is a spectrum of this behavior. I think maybe there is it does manifest with some people in a way that could be.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
mitigated but but I don't know um and I wanted to know if you know y'all from obviously Greta and Mariah you've been with us for two seasons Aaron and Nicole this was your first season so I know this is sort of obviously a newer topic but I mean when you sort of look at this case or like when you look at these situations I mean yeah what are what are your thoughts on that
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, well, Erin, I can just really attest to the fact that your voice and perspective was so helpful with this season.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And yes, you were a researcher and fact checker, but also I feel like, you know, you just added so much, especially to the early episodes where we, you know, you found so much interesting stuff online and that we did not, you know, did not have to begin with and just talking through all of that in those first couple of episodes with you and obviously some of that on the mic.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I love that, Maria. And thank you for saying that about child abuse pediatricians. And just, yeah, a note, like we've talked about this previously on the show, but child abuse pediatricians are really under attack right now. There's not that many of them. There's something like 250 in the entire country. If you have a child abuse pediatrician at your hospital, you are very lucky.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
That is a lucky community that has that person. Again, if I am a parent that brings my kid to a hospital with a suspicious injury, with a suspicion, whatever, Suspicious whatever, right? If there's something that's going to be a red flag for abuse, I want a child abuse pediatrician.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
They are going to be way less likely to make – and this is the data support says they are going to be less likely to make a wrong assumption, to make an incorrect evaluation as to whether or not something is abuse. This is getting tremendous. They are getting tremendous pushback. There is a law in Texas. There's another one that people are advocating for in Georgia. Those are the two I know about.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I haven't done a full research on this of these like second opinion laws, as they're called, which is just just basically completely hamstringing a hospital's ability to proceed. evaluate and report abuse and intervene. So there is a lot of like, be aware of what is going on in your community. If there are people that are pushing back, this is happening a lot of places. It's happening here too.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I don't know if they've made any headway. With the legislature, but this is something that, you know, is really people are really pushing. This is not just specific to Munchausen by proxy. This is also people that are saying, you know, that they their children who came in with fractures or, you know, had trauma or those kind of things, you know, like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
There aren't parents from my understanding of sort of the broader scope of abuse and child abuse pediatrics. I don't think there are that many parents who abuse their children, who bring them to the hospital with injuries and just say what they did. I think they usually come in with another story about what happened.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
was really amazing and helpful. So, yeah, just, yeah, really appreciate your work this season. Nicole, can we hear from you?
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Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So I think, again, be vigilant about what's happening in your community and be very, very skeptical about stories you hear about parents who've been falsely accused of abuse, especially if all of the parents in that story are white. Well, any other... Just final thoughts, comments that resonated with y'all from the season.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, exactly. Problem solved. And then everyone was fine. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we actually did get a handful of questions about how did Sophie slash are these perpetrators getting insurance to cover everything? Yeah. And I wanted to share two pieces of something that I have like that I have just sort of like one is an observation. One is kind of a data point from Detective Mike Weber in Texas.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
We all sort of are familiar with like how you have to fight with insurance even to get something that is totally necessary that your doctor ordered. So it's like, how are they getting all this unnecessary stuff? It's like the amount of time that they devote to it is just like nothing that a normal person would do. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like so I think there's sort of like, you know, there's the level to which like a parent with a legitimately sick child would have to advocate for that child to get their stuff covered. And that's heartbreaking and horrible and very real. And I think that's one of the things that this sort of hides behind. And then this is on another level altogether.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like the level of obsession and compulsion in this behavior is just such that like we see all the time in these cases, like the person calls me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
the doctor's office and they call the hospital administration and they call this person and that person just go up the chain to where they're like on the phone with the you know like ceo of that maybe not exactly but like i mean they will go up they will call everybody they will call everyone's manager and their manager and like they will go online and they will start campaigns and they will like you know what i mean so it's like this level of like activity that just like is so relentless and the other piece that i wanted to
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
point out about the interaction with the health care system that I think should really, really make people angry. Obviously, a lot should make people angry about these cases. But I think when you look at it on a community basis, most of these cases are Medicaid cases. Because that's the biggest health insurer of people, that's obviously something that's looking at huge cuts right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So that's a whole other separate, very sad, very troubling thing. But like that is a system that obviously like taxpayers pay into that is being defrauded by the people who who commit this abuse. And just the sort of like amount of community resources. And I think we really saw this in this case. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And in the meantime, we have a bunch of great stuff lined up for our new season of Case Files, which is our in-between season show. We're going to be talking about the lawsuit against Rady Children's in San Diego, the Bell Gibson case that was the subject of the new Netflix series, Apple Cider Vinegar, and a frequently requested topic, chronic Lyme.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Or like resources that are supposed to go to kids that actually have this or like that kind of thing. Like they really rip a lot of people off and they take a lot of time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And resources and they get their kids seen first and they get their court, you know, court case moved up on the docket and like they just devour all of these resources, which are already strapped and looking to be more strapped soon. So that's something that should really make people mad, I think. What was the stat from Detective Mike?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Oh, just that he was saying that the vast majority of cases that he looks at, it's not actually a stats observation, but like that the vast majority of cases he looks at are Medicaid cases. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So final thoughts from Nicole, Greta? Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah, no, thank you. That was so well said. And I do think actually that sort of community aspects really come through in this case. And I think, yeah, it's just sort of like top of mind for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Well, everyone, thank you so much for your incredible work on this season. I feel just very grateful and honored to have been able to work on this with y'all. And yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Thank you so much. And we will include links in the show notes to everybody's respective projects. Go check them out. They are fun. They are less heavy than what we do here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
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Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
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Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
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Answering Your Season 5 Questions
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
It's really incredible. I love it so much. And it really reinforces this feeling that I have that all history should just be told as gossip.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Like if we learned history as gossip, I think we would remember it much better because I'm like, like listening to these historical figures that I only sort of knew about in this very like, you know, academic context and just be like, oh, and they were like having affairs and like who was sleeping with who, which is like a lot of what the show's been about so far. I'm so into it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So highly recommend. Uh, thank you so much, Nicole and your, your contributions to the season were just incredible. I mean, it would not have been the same show without you this season. So just really, really appreciated, uh, appreciate you as well. Um, and last, but certainly not least, uh, Greta Stromquist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
See, I did not warn Greta she'd be on the mic today. This is Greta's first time on the mic with us, I think.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So stay tuned for all of that, and if you're a subscriber, we've got lots of good After Hours stuff coming soon as well. So with that, please enjoy our mailbag episode and let us know your thoughts by leaving us a comment on Spotify or sending us an email to hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Yeah. 100%. 100%. And yeah, I second all of that. And just, yeah, it's been as the creator of this show, you know, like having this team come on for the fifth season was just really like, this was, you know, I felt like we were just kind of firing on all cylinders and everybody like really brought their best. And that was just like, So satisfying podcasting so collaborative. It's so fun.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
There were so many comments. Definitely the strongest and quickest response we've ever had to a season. For the first time, we put all of the episodes behind the paywall at launch. And boy, oh, boy, did a lot of people listen really fast, which actually shocked me. And I know everybody on the team worked really hard to get all of those done.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
um by by the launch date which was right after the holidays sorry y'all never again um and uh and yeah so we had a most of the comments were really nice um a lot of people binge the season really fast as i said a lot of folks saying which i just want to ask are those people okay how are you doing a lot. I hope you're doing well.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
The first person I heard from, so we launched at midnight on whatever that Thursday was. And the first person I heard from who had finished all eight episodes was at 2.30 that afternoon. And I was like, what did you literally just, they must've just like woken up and started listening. I was barely enough time had passed since it had been up.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Um, and so I, and I heard from a lot of people within like the first 48 hours. So yeah, it was like, that is like a really intense journey that everyone went on. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm very, I'm very glad, but yes, that was, uh, yeah, let us know. Um, Um, so we just had like comments pouring in, um, really from the minute we launched this time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And, uh, and you know, most of it was really nice. Lots of thoughtful comments, lots of interesting, um, points and questions that we have to get to. Uh, and a lot of folks saying this was our best season yet, which really made me happy. And I think that that is really, again, down to, um, down to what a great team we had working on this. Um, you know, this is, there were many, uh,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
You know, as we go forward into new seasons, you know, I started this show as a limited series. I thought it was like a pretty niche topic to make a show on because it's obviously we cover like a very specific thing. And it turns out that actually it's even within like within our niche, there are so many issues that come up that actually like –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
I could probably make this show for as long as I had the stamina for it. And I think at this point, I really look for cases to dive into that bring up some of these interesting other things that we really dived into.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
And this season with the elements of evangelical Christianity and the transracial adoption were things that I found really interesting, but also did not feel equipped to handle on my own and just like through my own lens. So I think having the right team in place for this one really helped us get it right. And so yeah, that was like, I feel so good about a process on this one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Answering Your Season 5 Questions
So the first comment that I wanted to just address, and I'd love to get, especially since a couple of you have your own shows, just the commentary on this. We had a lot of comments about the number of ads. So I wanted to address this, not just to kind of complain about it, but just to say that, number one, we do have actually fewer ads than the average show our length.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
The child's condition was real, was validated by medical experts, and the supposed child abuse medicine claims were a vehicle for attention for misguided licensed professionals who themselves wanted attention and were willing to contrive a fake condition to get it. So in other words, C's AHC is real and Sophie's munchausen by proxy is the fake condition.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
But also, Sophie isn't doing munchausen by proxy. The doctors are doing munchausen by proxy. And they accuse the doctors of conspiring against Sophie, again, for attention. Quote,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
I spoke to Olivia LaVois, the reporter who broke this story, to try and unravel the way this case played out. I think the justice system, for those people who haven't interacted with it, is so much more complex than I think people realize.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
They laid the groundwork for an accusation of medical child abuse for two years, a false claim that was slow rolled while they gradually set the family up to be separated with false criminal charges, horrifying publicity, and removal of the children based on a contrived rush two years later to court for a phony emergency.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
This entire thing reads like someone gave an AI chatbot instructions to write a lawsuit in the voice of your drunkest conspiracy theorist uncle. Just word salad from top to bottom.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
And a lot of this is very parents' rights coded, such as the lawsuit using scare quotes every time they mention child abuse medicine, as though it's not a real thing, and their description of a dependency action as, quote, a legal term for an attempt to take away children and destroy a family. I spoke to Detective Michael Lee about how Sophie and her attorneys have framed this whole situation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
This language around the conditions of dropping the misdemeanor charges and then sort of how those were, how those translated into the media coverage of, you know, both the the, the case being dropped and then the, and then the lawsuit itself. And you know, the, the language that Sophie herself uses to describe what happened in this situation, which was that there was no evidence of abuse found.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep08: They Saw You
She says that she says we were exonerated. Um, even the headlines around this say, you know, rent and mom cleared of charges. And I was like, that's doesn't really describe what happened here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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The courts, by and large, do not take Munchausen by proxy cases seriously, but it's one of the deadliest forms of abuse. The most common cited death rate is 9%, but one more recent study showed it being closer to 17%. And the evidence in Sophie's case had all the hallmarks of going in a dangerous direction.
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The feeding tube, the push for TPN and an unnecessary central line, the constant talk of the child's death. So why would Family Court send her kids back? How could they just ignore all of this? I was hoping that Sophie's lawsuit filings would provide some insight. If some piece of exculpatory evidence had come out in the dependency trial, it would certainly be the center of this lawsuit.
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But the 152-page court filing includes only one direct quote from the judge's order, that Seattle Scan Team's process had been, quote, deeply flawed, which could mean almost anything. And I have to say, given how little the family courts understand about these cases, I'm not inclined to read much into this.
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Instead of any concrete evidence, the lawsuit does mental gymnastics to explain why all these providers would conspire against Sophie, at one point comparing Dr. Wester and the Seattle Children's Child Abuse Team to Joseph Stalin and his secret police. The conspiracy angle seems to be tied to the length of time that Seattle Children's was tracking this case.
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But as Dr. Jim Hamilton explains, there often needs to be a long period of observation to detect this particular form of abuse.
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People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. Hello, it's Andrea. The episode you're about to hear was originally the finale of our season.
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Much of this lawsuit hinges on the idea that C does have AHC and that it was diagnosed by Dr. McCotty from Duke, a notion we have already devoted plenty of time to unpacking. I do not believe, after reviewing this case file, that this child has AHC. And also, C having a legitimate diagnosis of AHC would in no way preclude the possibility of abuse.
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This is a very common misconception about munchausen by proxy that we discussed with Jim.
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In a small mercy, this fall, as we were working on this season, we learned that Sophie's lawsuit against Seattle Children's had been dismissed with prejudice, meaning she cannot make any additional appeals.
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The court decision is straightforward, upholding protections for mandatory reporters of child abuse, stating that, quote, "...the court has no reason to doubt the accuracy or authenticity of the report as submitted by the Seattle Children's Hospital defendants." The dismissal of Sophie's criminal case made the news. The dismissal of her lawsuit, however, did not.
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So in the end, Sophie probably won't get her big payout. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St.
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Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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However, in the weeks since the release of the premiere, one of the sources that I'd been speaking to for months decided that she wanted to go on the record. So we will be airing my in-depth conversation with her next week. And trust me, you will not want to miss it. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be...
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me and if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me Andrea Dunlop your humble narrator of this very show I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
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If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
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These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. This case is deeply intertwined with Sophie's faith. In her memoir and in her journals, she positions herself as being on a mission from God. And the church communities in her life played a big role in supporting and financing her efforts throughout C's medical odyssey.
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Sophie's now moved on from her former North End megachurch, and these days, she's with a new flock.
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We caught back up with Dr. Lauren Turek, our evangelical history expert, to ask her about this new church.
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This church is much smaller and with a much mellower vibe than Pursuit Northwest. And in keeping with Sophie's narrative of leaving Pursuit because of racism, this church is led by a black couple and the congregation is far more diverse than Pursuit.
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Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
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The church is small and community focused. No pyrotechnics like Pursuit. However, they do live stream all of their services. And Sophie and her girls can be seen on the church's social media accounts. And Sophie even delivered a sermon at one point.
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No, I mean, she sounds like the same Sophie, and it's, you know, just different backdrop. And Sophie is still in touch with her home church, Haven, which she paid a visit to this past summer.
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Sophie approaches the podium with a stack of letters.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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In April of 2009, Sophie Hartman left her small Christian college in Michigan to become a missionary in Zambia. While there, she encountered two sisters in an orphanage, C and M. And in May of 2015, after going numerous rounds in court with the Zambian government, she won the right to take the two sisters into her home.
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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Thank you. Thank you. , , , , , , ,, P P P P P P P P P,實, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , a sol a
Nobody Should Believe Me
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. I always talk about how strong the patterns in these cases are. The premature births, the feeding tubes, the seizures that no one else witnesses. The one in a million rare diagnosis that only the mother or perhaps one sainted doctor out of the laundry list of specialists truly understands.
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There's the unnecessary wheelchairs and leg braces. There's the graphic and disturbing social media posts. The ominous march towards death for a child no medical professional has deemed has a terminal illness.
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There's the heartstrings media coverage, the devoted church and community members that financially support the family, the inevitable make-a-wish trip, and often it's not, there's a celebrity cameo.
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
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That last clip is of my niece getting a special visit from the beloved former Seahawk, Richard Sherman, at the same hospital, Marybridge, where Sophie's daughter, C, was also being treated at this time. The parallels between my sister Megan and Sophie's cases are endless and exhausting.
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And given that they worked together to get C&M returned to Sophie, it's unsurprising that Sophie's next move followed in Megan's footsteps too. With a dependency case and criminal charges behind her, it was time to rebrand as a falsely accused mom. Here is a segment from Fox 13 News in Seattle.
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In March of 2021, after her younger daughter had endured countless doctor's visits, testing, and two surgeries, a court in Washington State, where Sophie had resettled them, took them away. And in May of 2021, almost six years to the day after the adoptions were finalized, Sophie was charged with assault of a child in the second degree.
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Other news outlets had headlines such as this one from Law & Crime. Quote, the spirit of subversion and hubris. Mom falsely accused of medical child abuse files multi-million dollar lawsuit against hospital, police, and child welfare authorities. And this banger from the U.S. Sun. Humiliating. I was falsely accused of forcing my daughter into 500 medical procedures. I almost lost custody.
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Now I'm suing for $3 million. I always knew that I would cover this case because of my family connection to it. But when this lawsuit was filed in 2024, I bumped it up in the queue. I devoted my entire third season to the Kowalski case, in which a family filed a similar lawsuit against Johns Hopkins All Children's and won a quarter billion dollar judgment in court.
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That case is on appeal, but the court of public opinion made up its mind before the trial even started, thanks to a little film called Take Care of Maya that was viewed by almost 14 million people in the two weeks after its release. So I thought I'd better get the facts of Sophie's case out there before she called Netflix. Here I am again with Olivia LaVoie.
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her and her team to say that these people maliciously conspired against her too, which is the charge.
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I mean, it's not the exact legal charge, but like that is sort of what, that is the nature of the lawsuit is basically that these doctors conspired against her, that, you know, this was, they were all wrong and sort of this, you know, she had this legitimate diagnosis and all these doctors sort of ganged up upon her for,
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Well, they have put in a demand for a jury trial, so we will see if that goes through. I, too, am very nervous about them settling out of court because I think then we will not ever have the kind of information we would. And also, I think, again, when you were talking about, like, what message does that send if someone settles?
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And again, entities settle out of court for all kinds of reasons, right? There's like there are some, you know, accountants doing the math back behind the scenes and there's like actuarial, you know, insurance, whatever things that play into that. It's not it's not like, oh, you know, she's right, so we're going to give her the money.
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But after a costly and bitterly fought year-long battle, Sophie got her daughters back. That following summer, the criminal charges were dropped. This season, we followed the long and windy road of this case and how it collided with my own family.
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It's quite a lot more complicated than that, but it does certainly send the message of like, oh, well, look, this, not only were the charges dismissed, she then won this settlement. So she really must have, not only did she not do it, she must really have been maliciously, falsely accused. And then that sort of reinforces the idea that, oh, false accusations are a thing that's happening. Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, and I always then worry also about the precedent that sets for other people who, you know, are accused of child abuse, charged with child abuse, may get it, sort of have this same slip through the cracks, and then sort of, I worry about that becoming an opportunity for opportunistic lawsuits, to be honest.
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Like, why would you put yourself back in the position to get more, be under more scrutiny?
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Why indeed? Because Olivia is right. Most people wouldn't push their luck in such a scenario. However, I think it's safe to say that nothing Sophie has done over the past 10 years is what most people would have done. Sophie is really on her own singular mission in life.
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In the last episode, we talked to my parents about the emotional blackmail that my sister Megan pulled on them after the first investigation, telling them that they could either help her sue Seattle Children's for quote, falsely accusing her, or they were never gonna see their grandchild again.
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And after reading hundreds of pages of documentation, listening to many hours of police interviews, and our tireless researcher scouring the internet for the truth, there's so much of this case that remains unknown. One of the biggest mysteries is how a judge could look at all of this and still decide to return Sophie's children to her care.
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As far as I know, she didn't go through with that lawsuit, likely because she and her husband couldn't pony up the fees themselves, given their already shaky financial situation. But after the next investigation, Megan took it to the big leagues, appearing in a national news story about being falsely accused, this time by Mary Bridge Hospital.
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There are two other hospitals, by the way, that have at one point or another reported my sister. So that's a conspiracy of four, if you're counting. This time, Megan did file a lawsuit against Mary Bridge. She also attempted to sue DCF, both for their investigation into her the second time and in a separate suit for not destroying the records from the first investigation.
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I have come to think of these lawsuits as part of the pattern of Munchausen by proxy. It's another chance to get all of the things that drive these behaviors in the first place. Attention, sympathy, publicity, and potentially ill-gotten money to keep up all these pursuits. Now, you're not just a victim of the cruel fate that delivered you a sick child. You're the victim of a false accusation.
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Now, you're not just the martyr trying to save your own child. You're an advocate for others, too. You are bravely fighting back against the evil system that tried to take your child away. And all of the time Megan has spent in court appears to have opened up a whole new career path for her.
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She has, I hear, been showing up quite a lot in dependency court, not fighting her own battle this time, but as a paid consultant doing medical forensics for the Office of Public Defense, defending other parents facing medical child abuse charges.
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The fact that her work is being funded by my very own tax dollars — and yours, if you're one of my Washington listeners — is just quite the cherry on the sundae. Especially because, according to someone I spoke to on background about Megan's second case, the reason the prosecutor gave for not pressing charges was that it would be too expensive.
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And when I ran this by a retired prosecutor familiar with the office in question, he said this tract. There is this notion that the state has endless resources to battle something in court, but it's just not the case, especially in child abuse. If there is a high enough profile case where the political will is there, sure, they'll find the resources. But my sister isn't Luigi Mangione.
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No one was going to lose their job if this went away. The sad reality is that no one is held accountable in most violent interpersonal crimes. The clearance rate in Washington state for murders is 47%, and 55% for aggravated assaults. And clearance rates don't account for what gets prosecuted. It only tracks cases where there were charges filed.
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How this all intersects with something like child abuse, where the thing being fought over is whether a crime even happened at all? Well, you can see how the numbers just get lower and lower.
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And there is, as I have learned, quite the little cottage industry around not only getting the children returned to parents and helping them evade criminal charges, but also in helping them turn around and sue the providers. As Sophie did after her criminal case was dismissed in her multi-million dollar lawsuit.
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This lawsuit is 152 pages long, but the gist of the argument it tries to make is that everyone was in a conspiracy against Sophie. Here is a quote from the opening pages.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
It's just having looked at many of these cases, that is some of the strongest evidence that I've heard of in a case. And yet... They didn't go forward with charges. And I guess like my always sort of question, and this is a little bit of an existential question, I guess, but it's like, okay, the person who's sitting in that office who made that call, because it is, it's a person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And it's like it's not like just some like system that you throw things into. I mean, there are systemic issues. We've talked about those, too. But like ultimately, like it is like a person that's sitting down there and making that decision. And it's like, what do you think is going to happen to these children going forward? Right. Like, do you not care? Do you not understand?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Do you like, is it just like a piece of paper on your desk? Like, how do you work a job like that? I mean, I understand there must be a job that probably does in some ways numb you out to some of those things. And there probably is some like compassion fatigue in a job like that, I would imagine.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
But like, you just sort of think like, how could you not even try when you know that a kid's life is at risk? It does not compute for me, Mike. It just does not. It never will. And I wish I could get any of them to talk to me and like, you give me the justification. I wish someone would give me the justification for why they make that decision.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something. First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me, but scheduling appointments with dentists, doctors, therapists can be a real hurdle, which is why I lean on ZocDoc for help. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high-quality in-network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
You can book in-network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty, from mental health to dental health, primary care, and more. You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. So no phone tech. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. ZocDoc.com slash nobody. You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Summer is coming. The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still rainy and gross, which it can truly be any time of year. And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And if you too want to save your money for patio margaritas and vacations, you've got to ditch your overpriced wireless and hop on Mint Mobile for three months of premium wireless service for $15 a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
and remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. So, okay, so you've taken us up to quite recent history here. So in spring of 2024.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us again, Mike.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, ha, ha, ha, I guess.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
So we are just rounding out our conversation today on the Jessica Jones case, which you walked us through in the first episode of this podcast. piece of the series. And then last time we spoke to Derek Jones, who is the father of the children in the case, or the father of a couple of the children in the case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Just sort of like a benign looking woman even, right? Like just, you just look like a normal lady. Like as long as you don't look for some reason, you know, like Eileen Wuornos or something. Right, true.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I think it's worth noting because it's sort of something that everyone involved in these cases needs to correct for, right? Like, no one is not subject to the culture we live in, the biases we may have. It doesn't make you a horrible misogynist or a racist or whatever. It's just that we have to recognize that there are, you know, that—
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
All of the representations we've seen in the media for our whole lives, like these things all infect our brains. Right. And it's not a personal failing that they infect our brains. It's something that we need to recognize and correct for. And as you said, like, look at the evidence, look at what the story, the evidence is telling you, you know, and it is it's like I sympathize with.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
This second dad, not so much the first dad that you were talking about in the bond conditions who, you know, really sounds like he believed her hook, line, and sinker. But, like, yeah, you meet someone on a dating app. They look normal, seem normal. At most, you know, a lot of times people report, oh, something seemed off.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
But unless you've been around that person for a long time and seen that pattern – You're not just going to like sitting in a room with them be like, ooh, that person's really creepy. Some of them, sure. Like I think Brittany Phillips was a little bit on that. People are different. These defenders are different. But I think like they have often the capacity to seem perfectly normal. So it's like –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I think women are aware that we need to protect both ourselves and our children from men that we are just getting to know, I think. And some women don't. You know, they're often like in these other forms of abuse where the men are perpetrators, you often see women who...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
support those perpetrators and cover for those perpetrators and that's not uncommon either but I think at least there is sort of a cultural recognition that boyfriends stepfathers you know I mean fathers too but like especially I think in those cases of like a new partner bringing a new partner around your kids that that's something that you need to be cautious about
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I don't think men approach that the same way. And I think oftentimes the opposite, in fact, happens where men who are single dads are sort of, you know, because we do put so much and this is very relevant to this abuse and why it happens and why it gets ignored. We do put so much of the onus of parenting and caretaking on women, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
that I think often single dads are almost like have a mom shaped hole next to them and are kind of like looking for someone to be present in those kids' lives and be there when, you know, they, if they have custody half the time to be there to do that half the time, I think, you know, and that's not, you know, anything necessarily like other than just an observation about how
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
There ended up being a number of victims in this case, which was an interesting piece of it. So I thought we would just kind of pick up today with talking through, you know, Derek talked us through some of what happened in sort of the court proceedings, but I wanted to get that from your perspective of, you know, how this sort of made its way through the system.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
parenting is and how gendered it is. So I think like it's really that's all just to say that it's a really terrifying setup for an opportunistic child predator like Jessica Jones, because that's an easy sell.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
You know, I mean, like that's that it's especially if you're cute, you know, that's a really easy sell to just go find a new boyfriend that has kids because they're like, oh, look, here's this nice lady who's also going to help me take care of. And that's something that I think like, you know, also attracts men. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
To have like a nurturing, this nurturing, nice lady that wants to help me take care of my kids. Like that's not a, you know, that's not going to raise a red flag.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
When you say medicated, like what was she being medicated for? Was she on some kind of regular medication? She had gone in for tonsillitis.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I mean, tonsillectomy is like a super normal thing for a 12-year-old to have. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Right. It seems like the important thing was to keep her off the streets, as it were, at that point.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Wow. Okay. So, yeah, so she's then being held in custody. Correct. And what ultimately happens in court with this case?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
You know, where we left off last time was March of 2023 when she had had her first bond violation. So can you kind of pick up the story there?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I mean, to be totally frank, like, why would she respect the court or the court rules when they're not even taking it seriously? It's like, nor did they have any respect for the law or the work of law enforcement or the lives of the children impacted.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
So it's like, why would she take it seriously when every sort of thing that's being telegraphed to her by the courts is that they're not taking it seriously? Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Right. More on that. But y'all are on notice here on this podcast, that office, because we're watching.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And you said she didn't call any witnesses, but presumably her attorneys made a case for probation in court. Like, what is the justification for probation in something this serious?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Okay, so as long as you don't try and kill a child twice.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. No, it's exhausting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
There's only one Detective Mike Weber, unfortunately.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Oh. Well, I mean, I remember, you know, not in detail, but like we had talked about this case and been in communication about this case while this was going on. And I remember you being, and understandably, since that's what the DA's office was telling Derek, that you were really worried that she was going to get probation in this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
You know, that language really strikes me from the judge's order on the Jessica Jones case, a determined recidivist. Yeah, and aren't they all? I mean, have you ever, Mike, in your extensive experience and in our anecdotal experience with our committee colleagues, we have encountered many, many, many cases. Have you ever heard of a case where a perpetrator stopped of their own volition?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I have not. I have not either. And in fact, like what what's more common that I have heard a lot of is that perpetrators continue on even past the time when their children are out of the house. Like then something happens to a spouse or something happens to an older parent or something happens to someone else in their care or they turn it back on themselves.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Like this is such a compulsive behavior that. that whenever you are leaving a child in this situation, you are sentencing that child to a childhood and potentially a lifetime of horrific abuse. And like, that is what you are doing every single time. And like, It's really quite a bleak option when you think about why these choices are made. It's like, well, you either don't know or you don't care.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And one of those can be fixed and the other cannot. You know, so like we would like to believe and I think we must believe we must continue to believe that it is the lack of education because I don't I mean, I don't believe that. that people really don't care what happens to children. I believe that most people actually do care what happens to children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And with that said, if the system is crushing the spirits of those who are trying to advocate for this abuse by making it next to impossible, then that is going to burn out anyone who is trying to actually advocate for this. And so I think that is when you do talk about things like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
legislation, reforming CPS policies, that kind of thing where you can just make you can make it possible for those people who do want to do the right thing. Right. It has to be both.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And that it can be daunting to set precedent. Also, though, like, isn't that kind of what people who get in the law get in the law to do? Like, there have to be some of you all that have that nice Mike Weber running run into the burning house on fire energy. Like, bring a little of that to court, please. Don't you want to be part of a landmark case to help kids?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Doesn't that sound like a nice thing for your resume? Come on, lawyers, get in there. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. I mean, so, you know, so she gets this this very harsh sentence and. I mean, this is I think this is the harshest sentence I have seen in a case, including the sentencing in the Lacey Spears case and the Kelly Turner Gantt case. She's the mother of Olivia Gantt, where those children died and they got significantly less time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Thank you so much for having me. a woman's right to an abortion, the right to due process, citizens' rights to privacy, and much more. In the two months since Donald Trump took office, the ACLU has filed over 20 lawsuits to protect people from the administration's abuse of power and attempts to strip away our most fundamental rights.
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Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And right now, they are at the forefront of protecting immigrants' rights. The ACLU sued to stop Trump's attacks on birthright citizenship, to end the deportation of immigrants to Guantanamo Bay, and they're providing legal counsel to those currently detained there.
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Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
They also block him from using an archaic wartime law, the Alien Enemies Act from 1798, to arbitrarily deport immigrants and deprive them of due process. The ACLU is also partnering with the legal teams fighting to free Mahmoud Khalil and Rumesa Ozturk who were targeted by ICE for exercising their legally protected rights to free speech and political dissent. The ACLU is fighting for all of us.
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Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And with so much on their plate, they could really use your support. So head to aclu.org backslash action at the link in our show notes. You can donate to help the cause as well as find volunteer opportunities and actions you can take in just minutes to help defend the country we all love. This ad was provided pro bono.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
You know, one of the things that I that I always want to really focus on on the show is to talk about the effects on the people around the perpetrator. And in this case, I mean, honestly, in all cases, it's a large number of people. That is, I think, something that is really specific to this abuse because in Munchausen cases, there's this web of deception.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And it's like because the point is to pull people in, you just get this like wide swath of destruction. And I always want to talk about like, you know, it's not an episode of Law & Order SVU where the –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
So was this case, when you said the article on her, was this case covered in like the Fort Worth Star-Telegram?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
you know gavel comes down and the sentencing happens in court and they haul that person off to jail and like that's the end of the story right because that is far from the end of the story for the people involved and in fact eric jones is facing some really difficult challenges now being in this position of being the father of two of the victims and also the father of the older child that is not his biological child but that he is
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
her dad and was also victimized by Jessica. And he is just facing innumerable challenges on the sort of custody and parenting side. So can you talk a little bit about the situation that the courts have left him in?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. I mean, it's really heartbreaking. And I think it's shocking. It will be shocking to listeners that you could have a parent who's being sent to prison and their rights are not being terminated. And in fact, there are many cases that I've heard of where parents have done some prison time and then got out and got custody of their children back.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
So, I mean, that is that is a thing that can happen. It should not happen in these cases. I'm not saying that, you know, there's any situation where a parent should go to prison and not get rights their children back. I don't think those two things are always incompatible. But I think certainly in cases of this abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
If a parent's convicted for it, I don't think that person can ever provide a safe home for children. And that should just be off the table. And I think it will surprise people to know that someone could go to prison for – be sentenced to six years in prison and not automatically have their rights terminated. It's sort of really a – piece of stunning cognitive dissonance there. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
It's a separate process.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. Well, God, I mean, and I just want to I think I just want to end this conversation with, you know, we talk a lot about this sort of gendered aspect of this crime. And that is a very particular thing about this crime. Right. The high instance is 96 percent female offenders and and how sort of baked.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
in these concepts of you know these very highly gendered concepts of you know what a mother is what a female offender looks like do female offenders even exist this whole sort of you know mess and morass of of this and i think um you know in talking to george honeycutt who also i know talked to derek jones during this case you know when i followed up with him a couple of months ago and he was sort of really reflecting on um you know his situation and he was a very young dad
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
and he was in the military. And so there was a lot of reasons why their parenting situation ended up being sort of gendered in the extreme, right? With a stay-at-home military wife, the offender in that case, Elizabeth. And he really shared some interesting sort of just insights on that he really was prioritizing doing all this stuff at home and really being involved and being present.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Shout out to my incredible producer, Mariah Gossett, who has been with me for almost a year now and has just been a true gift from the universe and is working so hard to keep us on track. Mariah, what would I do without you? Be insane, that's what. Truly just so grateful for my whole team.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And I really think that that's kind of an interesting... And I think on the sort of level of how we can support families on a community aspect, it's really like recognizing that the dads in these cases, like Derek, do the right thing at great risk. financial, emotional, you know, expense to themselves often, and then are in a very difficult position of raising very traumatized children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And that that's something that as a community, we should really be rallying around those dads and really, you know, just showing up for those fathers and those children that are in this situation, because this just has You know, it is a much better situation for those children that their mother is not present, that their mother is not able to continue to harm them and abuse them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And it is a deeply difficult thing for a family to lose a parent in that way. And those dads deserve all of the recognition and all of the support in the world.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Just to say, like... I have heard of cases where this came up and it's like, when it's someone trying to use it, because of course there are people who it's like, it's like any crazy thing you can think that people will do in like a high conflict custody, like they will do, right? Like, I mean, it's like, you will find a couple that is messy enough to have done that somewhere.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And like those cases, like it was so obvious that that was not what was going on. It was like, No one else in the, like, the times I've heard where it was just, like, a dad throwing that out. And I think in one of the cases, it was, like, as a response to, like, a legitimate accusation of abuse on the dad's part. Like, it was so obviously nonsense.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Can we just back up for a second? Can you tell me about your conversation with the boyfriend in question? I mean, I'm trying to think about getting a call like that as a parent. I would be... extremely alarmed, like I would take that really seriously. I mean, these are serious charges that she'd been arrested for and was, so at this point she's awaiting trial. Is that right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
It was just the dad saying it or just the dad and his attorney. It wasn't, like... The doctors and like every other person. I mean, I think that's what like I always want to like communicate to people because there is so much disinformation about this form of abuse is like, yes, it may be hard to prove in court, but it's not hard to recognize that it is happening because it is not happening.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Well, whether that's a case that can hold up in court or there's enough evidence or like that's a whole separate consideration than the idea of it being like some kind of Hail Mary in a custody battle. Like if that is what it is, it will be very, very, very obvious that that's what it is. Absolutely. There won't be any evidence that this abuse is happening.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Mike, for coming on and sharing, as always, your incredible expertise on this topic and this case. And we are just wishing all the best to Derek and his kids and all the other people that were impacted by this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmush.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. I hope everyone is enjoying their holidays. Shout out to my fellow school-age parents out there. I hope you are surviving the madness. The Nobody Should Believe Me team has had our noses to the grindstone this week in order to bring you all eight episodes of season five on January 2nd.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Okay, so then in March of 2024, the mother of a couple of these children contacts you. Right. And yeah, what happens next?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
A reminder that if you want to listen to the whole season on January 2nd, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon and you will get them delivered to you like a beautiful
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
And what was the DA's response?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
This sounds so frustrating and so baffling, even as much as my expectations for how the courts are going to handle these cases increase. is in hell already. But I, I mean, I am wondering, you know, from your perspective, obviously you've been in crimes against children for a long time and you have a lot of experience with this. I mean, is this specific to these kind of offenders or is like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
if you were looking at something like an abusive head trauma arrest or something like a child sex abuse arrest, in most cases, those are male perpetrators. I mean, would you see this same kind of lackadaisical approach to sort of like, well, we're not that concerned that they're like out and about with other kids or is there a market difference here?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. I mean, these are because these are the people that the community is trusting to make these decisions. I mean, I think that's something that people and certainly I did not have any awareness of it before I was pregnant.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
a new year's gift on that day in the meantime we have our final segment on the jessica jones case today we're back on with our pal detective mike weber who is going to walk us through what happened in court in the aftermath of this case as always we would love to hear your thoughts and what you might like us to cover on future case files episodes you can hit us up at hello at nobody should believe me.com or leave us a comment on spotify that is a fun new feature over there
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
in the true crime space and talking to you and talking to other folks about how these system works, like how much decision making power really lies within the office of the DA or prosecuting attorney, depending on which you have. That it really is just this sort of like thumbs up, thumbs down situation and that there doesn't have to be a good reason like that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I think that's the thing that, you know, it's it is hard to hold that office accountable. I mean, you can hold that office accountable at the ballot box if you, in fact, are far enough down the rabbit hole to even know that this is happening. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Or if you're lucky enough to have some local media, and to be fair, you do have some local media in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram that has consistently done some really great reporting on these cases. But I think it's a situation that people are not alarmed enough about because what I see is really the –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
the mechanisms that we have to hold offices like the DA or prosecuting attorney accountable are being decimated, have been in the process of being decimated for like the last 20 years, because that really is a function of local media, right? Your local television, radio, newspapers, and those have been going steadily out of business.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's just, you know, that should be really, really alarming to people that there are no real watchdogs. And I'm in an interesting space in true crime podcasting that is actually kind of one of the functions that folks in my space have started to fill is just being able to hold. Yes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
You know, but it's hard too because, you know, I think there is something really incredible about local news. It seems to me this case, you know, there are cases where the medical complexity is such that, you can understand why someone taking a sort of, who doesn't understand the context, taking a look at the case would think, okay, this is like, this is a complicated medical case, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I think it's impossible for me or you to see those cases that way because we just, the patterns are so strong that it just looks so, we just kind of see it for what it is right away, but that's because we're really highly educated on those patterns of abuse. This is not one of those cases that seems complicated at all. No. It's like this woman poisoned her child, like end of sentence.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Like you don't need to understand anything about the psychopathology. You don't need to understand the motivations. You don't need all like the context. I mean, you have expert medical record review, but you don't even need that in this case. It's just like it showed up on a blood test. And there was like Benadryl in her purse. It's so straightforward. And she confessed. Yeah. And she confessed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
It's like, it's so straightforward in a way that these cases often are not. And it's really disheartening that even with all of that, the DA did not appear to be taking this seriously. And that was also reflected in what Derek told us about his conversations with the DA and that they were, from the jump, really preparing him for failure, like it sounded like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
I mean, they were telling him that, you know, he should be prepared for her to, like, get probation. You know, you're talking about how CPS didn't terminate her rights and didn't make those kind of moves. I mean, that's so frustrating.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
When you're having those conversations, what's their justification for making this? Is it just like, oh, it's too hard to win in court or like, I mean, what even?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Also, if you have a moment, rating and reviewing on Spotify and Apple is a very big help. Thank you so much for supporting the show this year. We are able to keep doing this work because of you. So now on with the show. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. I do think a lot about sort of what goes on in the minds of the people who are looking at these cases and why they make the decisions that they make that often seem baffling to me. I mean, you never know what exactly happened.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
But nonetheless, you know, this case where it's like a second investigation and there is, you know, really, really serious harm to the child where you have a near death of a child and it's, you know, just... It's four hospitals in the area that have previously reported. It's video evidence. It's an expert review from one of the best experts in the field.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
She was always running out of money and always seemed to just have no connection between what she should have done in terms. So she collected the rent in the apartment she had in Kirkland, but she didn't pay the landlord.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
and so all these sort of this strange sort of behavior tied in and it was she would get so far and then there'd be this sort of breakdown and she would you know not connect the dots
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
But my history follows me on this road, and it takes a new shape with each new case I learn about. As my understanding of Munchausen by proxy deepens, so does my understanding of my past, of myself, and especially of my family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
Yeah. So, yeah, if you can talk a little bit more about kind of the financial piece of it, because, you know, she wasn't as at least as I remember it. And I remember the incident with her because I was when she was roommates with quite a close friend of hers. And so that was a sort of big betrayal of that friend that they got in trouble for not paying the rent.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
And she's been giving her her rent money every month. And I mean, it always seemed, that always seemed so strange to me because, you know, Megan and I were really lucky in that we always had everything we needed, right? I mean, you guys paid for school for both of us You know, we always had that safety net, right? We weren't like trust fund kids where we were just given a pile of money.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
But it was like, you know, if one of us needed help with rent or something like that, like you guys were always able to provide that and willing to provide that. So I remember it seeming, you know, because by this time we're both in our 20s. And I remember it seeming so strange of like, why would you get yourself in, like with her, like, why would you get yourself into credit card debt?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
Why would you, like, there was an incident where she was writing bad checks. Like, why would you do that? When like, I know you could just ask mom and dad. And like, it wasn't like she was doing, it wasn't like she was like living some crazy high life and driving. So it wasn't anything like super obvious. It was just these like weird things that would happen.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
And then when she forged the checks, that was bizarre. And it was so easy to find out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
right i mean not a mastermind not exactly not a mastermind and that was when that the boy that boyfriend appeared yeah her her boy that was when she was with him yes with scott yeah and i mean i remember that like so there was and again i you know it's like there's all these incidents but that one where she was writing the bad checks and then got in trouble and i mean she got in like legal trouble
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
That was a bigger deal than just like, oh, she was indebted.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
Right, you bailed her out. But I remember that she was, in that instance, so she was with this boyfriend that, you know, was, I think we had questions about him. And she got in trouble for writing fake checks. And then I remember that like that was kind of the first time like she stopped talking to all of us for like three months because she was mad.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
She was mad that I didn't defend her against you guys. And then she was so furious at me that she didn't talk to me for like three months. This was another thing that struck me as a parallel between Sophie and Megan. Not to say that you can't suffer just because you come from a place of economic privilege. Of course you can.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
I'm Andrea Dunlop's father. Been her father for a long time. In fact, ever since she was born. And so that's who I am. That's who I'm here today to discuss with my daughter some topics that relate to
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
But with both of them, there was this insistence on seeking out opportunities to position themselves as the victim that seemed pathological in and of itself. Like Sophie choosing to become a single mom of two, or my sister fabricating and then pretending to lose a twin pregnancy after her fiancé left her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
I've covered this story in depth in previous episodes, but when my sister was in her 20s, she pretended, very convincingly, to be pregnant with twin girls. and then called my parents and me while we were all out of town, a theme that would repeat itself over the years, to tell us that she'd lost the babies six months in.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
I was living in New York at the time, and I can picture exactly where I was, in my first tiny apartment with the ceiling that leaked prodigiously in heavy rains, when my dad called me to tell me that Megan's story about the babies had unraveled, that she'd never been pregnant at all.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
But even as the evidence mounted that my sister was capable of very serious deception, my dad second-guessed himself.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
I always felt in the back of my mind, have I made a dreadful mistake? Is this my daughter who's just having all these terrible things happen to her? Am I being unsympathetic? And then I look at the probability of two or three of them, let alone 15, and then that formed a pattern. And I remember...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
at the wedding and I definitely remember I had some inkling of fear that if she had children they might be at risk and I suppressed it a number of times but I felt because I'd seen the entire history you know right from when she was a child and it made me very nervous and of how she would care
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
for a child and so when she got really pregnant, got actually pregnant, pregnant for real, I was concerned and it's actually very similar to the Elizabeth Kubler-Ross the Swiss psychiatrist on her thesis on dying when people know they're going to die the first thing is denial then it's anger and then it's prayer and then it's acceptance and I think that's a very natural human trait and I think
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
For parents of children that have Munchausen's disease, you keep on replaying it and replaying it, and it's more comfortable to be in a state of denial. It's absolutely horrifying when you confront it and you realize that it's not, and it is the real thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
My mom also remembers Megan's early forays into medical deception, and she remembers this pattern of Megan being in proximity to someone having a medical issue and then suddenly co-opting it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
the challenge we have in our family with Munchausen's and also to help complement my daughter on the wonderful work she's done in bringing this very difficult subject matter to a wider audience with the objective of helping people who have suffered from this and revealing some of the difficulties we went through as a family And it's very difficult to discuss, and I'd much prefer not to do it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
My mom and I have always had an easy relationship, and we've always been close. My mom is tall and slim with salt and pepper hair. She's kind of the opposite of my dad, reserved and self-contained. She loves gardens, books, and most of all, she loves dogs, her gorgeous German shepherd Jenna in particular.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
My mom stayed home with my sister and I growing up, doing the unglamorous but important work of taking care of everyone in the family's needs. My dad is an entrepreneur and he worked a lot while we were growing up, so it was my mom who was there for everything, driving me to tennis after school and taking my sister to swimming at the ungodly hour of 5 a.m.
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Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
She is the emotional rock of our family, and she's honestly just the best mom ever. Even as the troubling incidents with Megan piled up, my mom remained hopeful for her daughter.
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I remember this moment really well, and having no idea that this was the beginning of the end of my family. I remember thinking, well, okay, now we're finally going to do something. But it was my mom who took action. My mom who had the courage to make the call. I was living with you guys at the time, because I just moved back from New York.
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But the value of doing it, I think, to explain to other parents who can see signs of this happening at an early age will, I think, make a big difference.
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And you said you and Daddy were going on a walk, and then you had this meeting with Dr. Druckmann. And I remember you guys walking in and telling me about your conversation with Dr. Druckmann. What do you remember about that conversation?
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And that was kind of the framing we had it, right? Like a bad feeling. Right. And that she was the cause of it. Not necessarily specifically Munchausen by proxy, which we didn't know that much about.
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Dr. Druckmann kind of helped give us that framing.
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Nobody Should Believe Me is proud to partner this month with the American Civil Liberties Union. With more than 1.1 million members, 500 staff attorneys, thousands of volunteer attorneys, and offices throughout the nation, the ACLU is at the forefront of fighting government abuse and defending the freedoms we all hold dear. Freedoms of speech and religion,
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a woman's right to an abortion, the right to due process, citizens' rights to privacy, and much more. In the two months since Donald Trump took office, the ACLU has filed over 20 lawsuits to protect people from the administration's abuse of power and attempts to strip away our most fundamental rights. And right now, they are at the forefront of protecting immigrants' rights.
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The ACLU sued to stop Trump's attacks on birthright citizenship, to end the deportation of immigrants to Guantanamo Bay, and they're providing legal counsel to those currently detained there. They also block him from using an archaic wartime law, the Alien Enemies Act from 1798, to arbitrarily deport immigrants and deprive them of due process.
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Aw, Dad. Season 5 brought me back to my sister's case, because, if you don't know, she was a part of Sophie Hartman's legal team, so Megan plays a role in this story. But I also wanted to explore the parallels between the two families, the Hartmans and the Dunlops, and the divergence, ultimately, in our two paths. Both were upper-middle-class families who grew up in idyllic suburban settings.
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The ACLU is also partnering with the legal teams fighting to free Mahmoud Khalil and Rumesa Ozturk who were targeted by ICE for exercising their legally protected rights to free speech and political dissent. The ACLU is fighting for all of us. And with so much on their plate, they could really use your support. So head to aclu.org backslash action at the link in our show notes.
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You can donate to help the cause as well as find volunteer opportunities and actions you can take in just minutes to help defend the country we all love. This ad was provided pro bono. In the Hartman case, we saw a family of privilege make the opposite choice, to defend their daughter's indefensible actions and pour millions of dollars into her legal case.
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The result was that two vulnerable children remain at home with an unsafe parent, and Sophie was free to pursue an opportunistic lawsuit. In my family, Though I know how hard this was on my parents, once they had the information in front of them, once they realized what was at stake, the priority was protecting Megan's son.
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I think on some level, we all knew that this could cost us our relationship with Megan, even if there was some part of us that was hoping it could go another way, as my mom and I discuss here with my wonderful lead producer, Mariah Gossett. So, you know, we get this call and we were down in the desert and actually Megan and her son were supposed to join us.
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And then we get this call from Andy and he's hysterical. And, you know, they've taken... CPS came and did an emergency removal, which we did not know was going to happen. We did not.
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But I think we were like, and I think we all sort of fell on different places of how realistic we thought this was even at the time. And certainly now we all see it in a different lens, but like we were thinking of Megan as sick. We were thinking of her as she has, and this is something we've talked about at great length on the show of like, do you classify this as a mental illness or not?
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And we were thinking of her as like, oh, she needs help. Like she needs help and support to be able to parent safely. Like that's how we were looking at her. Right. And we needed her husband and her family to recognize that she needed that help so that they could be a part of that support system. Right. And so in the very beginning, like we were having these conversations.
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I mean, I mean, I remember like this was our first conversation. We're lucky the lives we've led until then, I guess. But like this was this is our first interaction with like the state and the CPS. And that's a very like I wouldn't be scared of them now, but like that's a very scary thing. Right. You're like, oh, my God, the child is like and it was very brief.
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He was given over to the grandparents like very fast. But like the idea of like a child being in state custody in your families.
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Megan and Sophie were both gifted children of long-married parents, given every material advantage one could hope for in this world, and yet somehow managed to portray themselves as constant victims.
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This is definitely a top-shelf problem, but for families with resources, the line between helping and enabling isn't always crystal clear. And my dad is a man who is used to being able to fix things, to take charge of a situation. And in this moment of crisis, it makes sense that he thought he might be able to fix this one.
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Well, what I told the attorney, I told Shapiro, this is what I want. I want Megan to get treatment. There's no doubt in my mind she's seriously ill. And his job is to make sure that she gets treatment. And unfortunately, he went completely against my wishes. And he sort of claimed that he's representing Megan, even though I was paying the bills.
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Right. I think they have to do that. If he gave you the impression in your first conversations with him that he could do that, that he could like, because you were paying the bills, sort of act on your behalf. I mean, I don't think that would be legal or ethical.
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Well, it's not. It wasn't. It was what I wanted him to create as an outcome. And to first, this was an incident that we could utilize to help Megan. And that was...
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Right, sort of things have come to a head now. Yes.
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And she needs legal representation because it's in the hands of the state. And one of the things I've compartmentalized is the horror that this man, in my opinion,
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I've always been close with my parents, and I've always admired how they handled the situation with Megan, but it's only as I've encountered all of these other stories, Sophie's in particular, that I've really understood their emotional courage. My parents and I have talked about what happened with Megan in depth many times over the years.
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not represent her best interests, in my opinion, but actually defend her against something that she did and then has now tried to make a career out of it and now is probably behind a lot of these lawsuits because the one way that lawyers make a lot of money is they take a percentage of the lawsuit And I don't know how many of these are going to be successful, although in your podcasts, some have.
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And this now seems to be almost a modus operandi for shaking down hospitals.
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This was what really drew me to the Hartman case. The way that my sister and her lawyer, Adam Shapiro, set a blueprint for how to attack a hospital who reports abuse, and the way they took what they learned in Megan's case and directly put it to use in Sophie's. The deeper I get into the cases I cover on this show, the more I am both intrigued and dismayed by their interconnectedness.
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the way the same lawyers and experts and groups keep showing up in these cases. There is a playbook for perpetrators with means, or the ability to procure means. Hire experts and lawyers to attack the hospital and exploit the judiciary's lack of knowledge on these cases.
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Then, in a classic bit of Darvo, turn it around so that the abuser is now the victim, suing the hospital for whatever they can throw at the wall. And funding this lawsuit, Megan and her husband proposed, was how my parents could have their daughter and their grandson back. That was the price.
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Yeah, he wanted to meet at this restaurant. And I can't remember all the details of the conversation with the restaurant in Tukwila. And their whole motivation was how can we sue the hospital?
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Yeah. I mean, were you surprised at the gall of that? I mean, it's like they were in a... It's not surprising in the context of Megan and her behavior, but like... It's sort of a shocking move in some ways.
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I think Andy saw it as a ticket out of their financial problems.
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So they wanted you to fund their legal pursuit of suing Children's Hospital for falsely accusing her. And what did you have to say to that?
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I said, no, I believe that what they said is correct. And I have no intention of doing that. And I think that is, that's extortion. That's not just, that's extortion. You're trying to get money out of them when you have no rationale for it whatsoever.
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And so I believe, but I mean, was that your last conversation with Megan?
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But this is the first time either of them have ever talked about my sister publicly. My dad is, in all ways, a big man. He's a successful entrepreneur and a 6'3 former rugby player. And in case you can't tell, he's British. And if you think he gets a lot of mileage out of that accent, you'd be right. He's an indefatigable optimist and irrepressibly outgoing. He collects friends everywhere he goes.
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Yeah, I said goodbye. And I, to be honest, I didn't expect to see her again.
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My mom and dad faced this situation with unusual clarity and courage. But sadly, Megan's in-laws did not. And I mean, I remember looking at Andy's mom. And I felt sort of instinctively like she might be the one who would listen. That's not how it turned out.
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Well, it just, it felt, I mean, it felt like we were up against a cult even then.
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And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, You should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
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I mean, it was like, but Megan, and Megan always kind of like, she always kind of had that, right? Like she was very good at convincing you of things. And she's very good at like sort of presenting her version.
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And like this was something that I actually don't have memory of, but she had a big health crisis right when you guys were coming down for my college graduation, right? During the first investigation into Megan, she was evaluated by a psychologist who also interviewed my parents and me to get a family history.
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I do remember talking to him and really having the impression that he thought something was wrong. I mean, I believe he mentioned that he felt she had borderline traits.
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Yeah. And I remember feeling reassured by that because I was like, oh, they see it. Like they see that something is wrong here, but it just came to nothing. And I got the sense that they sort of like... sent her off with like, ma'am, you need to go to some therapy.
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We have limited information about what went on during the first investigation, because we were on the outs with my sister and the records for the case are sealed. We got some insights from the social worker and the CASA, or court-appointed special advocate, who was representing my nephew.
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We don't know what the results of the psychological evaluation showed, other than what the psychologist shared with us during our conversation with him. What I now know after studying many of these cases is that a psych eval is of limited use in a medical child abuse case, particularly if that psychologist has not reviewed the medical records.
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This is not a diagnosis that can be made from conversations with the perpetrator and their family. It's a crime for which there either is or is not evidence. But we knew none of this at the time. All we knew was that we were now the enemy. When was your last conversation with Megan? Do you remember?
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The state's dependency petition for my nephew was dismissed. The social worker tried to reassure my mother afterwards that they had nonetheless, quote, implemented a safeguard to protect my nephew and get Megan the help she needs. Whatever that means. Over the next few years, my sister gave birth to two more babies, both very premature. One of them died. The other, my niece, survived.
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Airplanes, restaurants, his UPS delivery guy. My dad is chatting them up. But even though my dad loves to talk, now you know where I get it, I didn't think he'd ever want to talk about this. Through the years, especially as I've become a parent myself, I've come to a deeper appreciation of what it must have cost my parents to accept who my sister is.
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And five years later, my sister was back in court after reports of her abusing my niece. This time, there was a police investigation that included an expert review of my then five-year-old niece's 73,000 pages of medical records. They also had video evidence of my sister disposing of an anticoagulant medication meant for my niece.
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Following this incident, my niece had developed a life-threatening blood clot that hospital staff reported would not have been possible if she'd received the intended dose. This led to yet another lengthy stay in the PICU. The detective reached out to my family, and even after the previous disaster, we thought this time would be different.
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Throughout all of this, through the death of one baby and yet another investigation at a different hospital than the first one, Megan's husband and in-laws stood by her. During the second investigation, Megan's father-in-law even told the police... This is a witch hunt, just like last time.
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Their commitment to remaining in denial and their financial support of Megan has cost the kids any hope they had of a safe childhood. No one person could have stopped her, but all of us together could have.
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And as grandparents, they don't have any rights, you know?
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I think so. I don't question, I don't question whether they love the kids. And on some level it's like, I mean, I have such complicated feelings about them because like I, I want them, Those kids have people that love them. I don't want them to be alone, isolated with Megan. And I think the person I have the strongest feelings about is Andy because I'm like, you are a collaborator now.
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You're not just an enabler. You... You are the person that could have stopped this. You're the person who has legal rights, and you didn't. And you had a duty to protect your children. She had one job. You have one job, Andy. And that's to protect your kids. To protect your kids, and you didn't do it. And you abdicated that 100%.
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You've been presented with so much evidence about the abuse, so much evidence about her deception, and you have chosen to disregard all of that. I always wonder what story Megan and Andy tell their children about where the rest of their family is. I know we're the villains in that house. That we, in addition to all of those scheming doctors who keep reporting her, are the scapegoats.
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And sometimes, it's hard not to think about what might have been. I know what good parents you were and grew up in the same house. And like, I know how much we would have loved to be in those kids' lives.
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And this potent mix of shame, fear, and grief, I believe, holds people like the Hartmans back from ever facing the truth. You heard a bit from my folks in Season 5, but today I wanted to share more of my conversation with them. Because particularly after meeting Chalice last season, I've come to believe that courage is contagious. And my parents are two of the most courageous people I know.
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The interesting thing in the future is going to be as the children get older and older, they are obviously going to be exposed to a lot of what happened to me when I was younger. And in the daughter's case, that was her entire early life was spent in hospitals. So I think the, I think it's gonna be interesting to watch and I, you know, hope springs eternal.
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And I think that, I don't think we'll be reunited with Megan, but I look forward to the possibility of being reunited with the children. And, but I think they're, you know, time is a great healer because once they're outside a certain age group, they're protected by themselves. I mean, why are you giving me this? Why are you doing this to me? Why I don't feel ill, et cetera, et cetera.
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And you've done some really interesting interviews with the recognition And I think part of the great work that you're doing and part of the resources that we're very happy to provide for the surviving children, because talk about a crisis and a catharsis when they realize that all the stuff they've been through was created. And, you know, I think they come from strong genes.
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As I said in the finale of our last season, this show has always been a sort of love letter to my niece and nephew, strange though that may be to say about a true crime podcast. And for this reason especially, it was important to me to capture my parents' voices here, in this time capsule of the Dunlop family saga. My parents are fortunately still in good health, but they're in their 70s.
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There is time still, but it's not infinite. So to my niece and nephew, just know the door is open and that we're holding out hope. I hope you get to meet your grandparents someday. They're wonderful people. You deserved to have them in your lives, and I'm sorry you didn't. And I'll let them have the final word.
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That we're still here. And we'll always welcome them. And we'll always tell them the truth. And it's not that we hate Megan. It's not that we just, anything adversarial against your mother is that we know the truth. And when you look at people, when people tell you something, you have to look at what the motivation is.
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And as they get older, having to explain to them that what possibly could have been our motive other than to protect them? I mean, what other possible motive? Financial, their publicity, so what did we gain from trying to protect them? And that will be my sort of rationale explanation to them. And hopefully I live long enough to see them. But that is the message I want to pass.
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We've all spent years wondering where things went wrong with Megan. Was there a moment we could have helped her before this all escalated? For me, those disquieting memories go back to high school. But for my parents, they go back much earlier. We've certainly gone back through our own history with Megan many, many times.
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From a pure logical standpoint, why would we have ever done this? And we did it not for Megan. We did it for you. We were protecting you.
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Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
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And I think one of the things that's the most complicated for me is that I have many really nice memories of her from when we were growing up. And I wonder if you could just sort of talk about what was Megan like when we were kids? What are some of your memories of her when we were kids?
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She was relatively just a normal kid. But very early on, we started to see symptoms of becoming a hypochondriac, how she wanted the attention of illness very early on. And the earliest example was when she needed glasses or she said she needed glasses. And so we took her to an eye specialist and an optometrist and he said she doesn't need glasses at all. She's not telling the truth.
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Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. So if we could just start by getting a slate from you. So I'm Mike and I'm Andrea's dad.
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I think I'm fairly observant and I thought there's something strange about this. And then when Megan went to the alternative school, she became absolutely obsessed with one of the students who was severely handicapped and sort of started saying that she was the only one who could understand what he was trying to say and spent a lot of time with him and wheeled him around.
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True Story Media. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
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And every time we went to the school, she was with him. And I thought, this is either someone incredibly compassionate or someone who just wants to be the center of medical attention. So I started to see things very early on. I didn't see anything, but I just felt that something was not right.
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Just to clarify what my dad is talking about here, my sister and I went to this hippy-dippy alternative elementary school. Kind of unconventional for my straight-laced parents, honestly. But this place was awesome. There were always a ton of parents in the classroom. We went on a million field trips and did wacky art projects and, for some reason, called our teachers by their first names.
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we also had a special needs sister school next door whose students we spent a lot of time with again this was awesome and i remember this boy that my dad's talking about i just thought oh my sister has such a big heart it's one of a million little details that looks different in the rear view But it sounds like maybe there was like some unease about Meghan even when she was little.
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Yeah, not only that, but as she grew up, you know, one of these incidences would have been fine. You're just sort of brushed aside. But I have a very good memory of detail. And I started piecing a lot of these pieces together that there was something, there was definitely something wrong. Uh, the next one, uh, the next incident was the knee.
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And, uh, there's this wonderful doctor who went to see Dr. Holland and Megan was complaining of terrible pain in her knee. And, uh, she did an arthroscopic surgery, said there's absolutely nothing here. Everything is perfect. So that was the first. And then.
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And that was when she was in high school, right?
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uh yes i think she was about 12 or 13. and then in a gym class she said she hurt her back and that was she claimed she fell and hurt her back and that was the series of just a number of just very traumatic situations one where she had a back operation and the doctor turned out to be a complete flake anyway so that didn't exactly help the situation
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And then she got all this attention with everybody coming to the hospital and asking how she was. She went home and then she had an infection. And we think it was self-induced because it was just, it was something that was so unusual. And then she went back in, had another operation.
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And I can picture exactly now looking at her in the bed and her being kind of pleased that everybody was looking at her and concerned about her. And not concerned about what happened, but concerned about that we were concerned. And I started piecing pieces together. And it was this medical attention-getting that had a number of instances.
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One where she claimed she couldn't walk and almost had to be in a wheelchair and Eventually got her to walk, took her to a doctor at University of Washington. He was a very strange doctor, had a long ponytail, but was a very good doctor and asked her to walk down the passageway. He said, we deal with cases like this, there's nothing wrong with her back, it's in her mind.
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And that was when I decided I was either going to pay $30,000 for this course that he had where he would make them swim and run and jump.
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But you sort of, it was like a sort of physical therapy, occupational therapy.
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Well, he asked her to walk and hop down the passageway. And then he took me aside and said, you know, there's absolutely nothing physically wrong. You can't do that if you have what she claimed that she had, this serious back problem.
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Right, right. And was this probably around the time that she was wearing a back brace for on and off? Yes.
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And that, again, drew attention to it. And then... I decided well do I spend X thousand dollars on this course or do we head off to Club Med in Huautulco in Mexico and I decided that was the better option.
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Four years ago, I set out on the journey of making this show. I came here because I had a story to tell. And I'd recently realized that my family's bizarre and horrifying saga wasn't actually a one in a million story.
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Yeah I mean I remember that trip as well because I remember specifically that piece of it like oh Megan's been having all this trouble with her back and then now she's like having fun and doing you know doing all this stuff and I remember her going on runs with you. Yeah, and I mean, for you and mom at the time, do you remember having conversations about your concerns about Megan?
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And what were those? Or were those just sort of like something's off?
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Well, that she was an incredible hypochondriac and that she appeared to get pleasure for being involved in medical intervention.
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So at the time, your framing of it was... She's convincing herself.
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She's sick not this is deliberate deception She knows she's not sick because of course we would not have had any of that framing at the time I think it was I had the feeling it was deliberate that it was a prescription in order for her to get attention and It just became so obvious and it was the next thing then the next thing the next thing and
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Yeah. Was it just sort of not clear what to do? Or like, let's just try and redirect her as much as possible?
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We had no idea what to do. We thought it would be resolved when she eventually went to university and went up to Western State, is it?
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Western, and started studying to become a nurse. And we thought, finally, this is an avenue where she can be involved in medical stuff. but not have to, you know, that's what she does. And so all the attention related to medical. And she has had an incredible memory. I mean, she's kind of like me. She has this detailed memory.
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So she remembered drugs and dosages and things that the average person can maybe do two or three, but not a whole pharmacy full of drugs. yeah yeah she's really smart yeah remember the names and everything and uh so um i thought finally that was the diversion
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Summer is coming. The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still raining gross, which it can truly be any time of year. And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill.
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Instead, it sounded nearly identical to all of these other stories of families experiencing Munchausen by proxy, and it's this powerful shared experience that fuels the show to this day. I've talked about my sister Megan Carter's case periodically throughout the show, namely in the first and second seasons, episodes that I'll link to in the show notes.
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And if you too want to save your money for patio margaritas and vacations, you've got to ditch your overpriced wireless and hop on Mint Mobile for three months of premium wireless service for $15 a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.
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You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number with you along with all of your existing contacts. The coverage and quality are top notch and you cannot beat the price. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at mintmobile.com slash believeme. That's mintmobile.com slash believeme.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar. Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
You can book in-network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty, from mental health to dental health, primary care, and more. You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
Choose the time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. So no phone tech. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. ZocDoc.com slash nobody. You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 16: Mom and Dad
And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show. We didn't have language for it, but this whole series of incidents with the knee and back surgeries and then the infection, it was confusing and worrying for my parents. And to this day, we can only wonder how much of it was real. But Megan was pretty and smart and had a ton of friends.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So while there was always a low hum of worry between crises, my parents just hoped she'd grow out of it. And I think we all felt like becoming a nurse would... fix it somehow? Like, if her seeming obsession with medical stuff could just be contained, it could all be fine. But it wasn't just the medical stuff that was concerning.
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Another mom from the gym, who asked not to be identified by name, recalled the little girl's constant presence.
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Maybe this is all behind us now. But it was never behind us. And what was coming was always worse than the last thing. It wasn't until I started talking to experts that I understood how compulsive Megan's behavior had really become. She had this need to keep upping the ante, like she was an addict whose tolerance was increasing. And it seemed to destroy everything in her path.
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And is there something special about, so this is that Metro, right? Like, is there something special about Metro where like, this is the only gym that has that level of program? No, no.
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We've all seen the interview clips with parents that they trot out in the feel-good stories during the Olympics about all the sacrifices that the athletes' families made so that they could pursue their Olympic dreams. But while every person we spoke to said that Em was indeed a talented gymnast and was in a serious gymnastics program, this gym isn't some one-of-a-kind Olympian factory.
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In fact, there's a different gym, incidentally about an hour closer to where Sophie lived at the time, that is a U.S. national training center. And again, Em was six when they started this program. And kids that age don't decide to drive four hours round trip to do gymnastics all day every day. That's on the parents.
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And as you can probably hear in this audio, I am absolutely baffled by this detail. I have two young kids, and long car trips with them are generally not a good time. You basically pack snacks, charge up the tablets, and pray. I just truly cannot wrap my head around this commute, especially for a single mom with a medically fragile child who needs the level of care that Sophie said she needed.
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Also, interestingly, Sophie isn't working throughout this time. From what we could gather, she appeared to be living on a combination of state benefits and likely some financial assistance from her family. So while I understand wanting to support your kids' hobbies, this is just so extreme. And the moms we spoke to remember Sophie constantly talking about the hardships of caring for C.
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So we kept waiting for the crisis to be over. But the truth was, we could patch the holes, my parents could bail her out one more time, we could make excuses for her once again, but it would never, ever be over.
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These small details of the family's dynamic are really striking to me, partly because I have kids almost the exact ages of M, who is around six at this time, and C, who was a toddler during this period. I'm just thinking about the struggle of getting my two out the door to kindergarten and preschool each day, and this is just that times a million.
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And listen, I'm not saying that Em didn't enjoy gymnastics, but with kids this age, the parents are the drivers, especially with a training program so intense that the girls participating can't even attend normal school.
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We have plenty of evidence, both from Sophie's own journals and from the recollections of folks we spoke to on background, that Sophie's pattern of constant crisis began long before Zambia, but certainly it escalated once she went abroad. In her memoir, Sophie tells this heroic story of emerging victorious after an agonizing battle to adopt her daughters. So okay, the battle is won.
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Since she began her motherhood journey in Zambia, Sophie just seems to make choice after choice that pile on this self-imposed hardship, beginning with the decision to push through a transracial foreign adoption as a single woman with no job whose own frontal lobe was barely fully developed.
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then choosing to move many states away from her entire support system, then putting her daughter in an all-consuming sports program a two-hour drive from home, while caring with a younger child with a debilitating condition. And setting aside the piece about C's medical issues, and we'll get into all of that, none of these circumstances befell Sophie. She chose all of this. I just can't square it.
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It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something. First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me, but scheduling appointments with dentists, doctors, therapists can be a real hurdle, which is why I lean on ZocDoc for help. Sock Jock is a free app and website where you can search and compare high-quality in-network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You can book in-network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty, from mental health to dental health, primary care, and more. Sock Jock is a free app and website where you can search and compare high-quality in-network You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, and are highly rated by verified patients.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep03: Constant Crisis
Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. So no phone tech. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. ZocDoc.com slash nobody.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes. And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Summer is coming. The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still raining gross, which it can truly be any time of year.
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And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill. And if you too want to save your money for patio margaritas and vacations, you've got to ditch your overpriced wireless and hop on Mint Mobile for three months of premium wireless service for $15 a month.
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Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at mintmobile.com slash believeme. That's mintmobile.com slash believeme. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three month, five gigabyte plan required. Equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only. Then full price plan options available.
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Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. As C got older, her condition appeared to worsen. And as part of her treatment, she enrolled in various therapies to help with her challenges with cognition and movement.
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From her speech pathologist to her occupational therapist to the instructor at her horse riding school, everyone seemed charmed by C, who is constantly smiling in pictures and videos from this time and is just generally pretty darn cute.
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Smooth sailing now, right? But in a pattern that would ratchet up dramatically over the next several years, for Sophie and her girls, the minute one crisis faded, the next was just beginning. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something.
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So eventually, Sophie moves to the south end of Seattle. We couldn't confirm the reason for this move, but the family landed in Renton, putting them within five miles of the gym where M was still training for hours each day. While the move makes their daily commute less cumbersome, C's condition, according to Sophie, continues to baffle doctors.
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If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
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As you heard, Sophie seems to move from doctor to doctor seeking answers. And you also may be thinking, with all this caretaking of C and M's gymnastics stuff, this must be getting expensive. And again, no one we spoke to or who the police spoke to had any recollection of Sophie having a job.
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This quandary of how she was participating in one of the most expensive youth sports also confused her fellow gymnastics moms.
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Unclear whether Sophie did any volunteer work at the gym, but hard to see where she would have found the time. But this whole situation just felt off to many of the parents at the gym.
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I have to break in here as an author who has worked in and around book publishing for 20 years to let you know that Sophie's book was not a source of income. Book advances can vary widely, but for a first-time author, a typical advance is somewhere between $5,000 and $50,000. And that's if you sell your book to a publisher.
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Now, Sophie's memoir is self-published, meaning she had to front all of the costs for production. And I will say, this book looks pretty professionally produced, as does the sweeping cinematic book trailer she made to market it. None of this looks DIY. This could easily have been a $10,000 investment on Sophie's part.
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So frankly, I'd be shocked if Sophie came anywhere near to breaking even on this project. And I'm not saying this to be mean about Sophie's author career. This book is just another thing that begs the question, where did all this money come from? The money for the adoptions, the money to go to Zambia in the first place, the money for gymnastics, and all of C's treatments and therapies.
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Hell, their daily living expenses. Who is paying for all of this?
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And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... you should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
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This is from a police interview with a friend from Pursuit Northwest, the church that Sophie joined after moving to Seattle. As she says, the church helped raise over $30,000 to help Sophie purchase a wheelchair-accessible vehicle. This brings us back to that feel-good story we heard at the top of episode one about fundraising for the special van for C. So family friends are banding together.
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The fundraiser came about a year after Sophie started taking C to Duke University Medical Center in North Carolina to visit their renowned AHC clinic. AHC, or alternating hemiplegia of childhood, is a rare and potentially debilitating neurological condition.
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We're going to bring in an expert in an upcoming episode to help us better understand AHC, but this was the diagnosis Sophie reported to friends, family, and the news media during this time. By the time she was fundraising for C's van, Sophie was well-versed in asking for money. From Em's adoption in 2014 onward, there were frequent asks for money.
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These came from GoFundMes, marathon beneficiaries, and even a Catholic school that raised money for children with disabilities. Sophie, a single unemployed mother of two, was always raising money, and there was often a particular emphasis on leaning on her community's sense of Christian charity.
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she had sort of a social media account that was dedicated to her younger daughter. And that was about raising money or raising awareness or following her journey or all of that.
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Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
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Yeah, sounds like maybe there was a couple of different sources that were contributing.
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And did you see the younger one in her wheelchair?
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The fundraisers, which we heard about earlier in this series for this wheelchair-accessible car, went on to raise just over $45,000, which got them the car, along with a discount from the dealership. And from the schedule she was keeping with the girls alone, which included homeschooling, gymnastics, equine therapy, and all the doctor's appointments, there seemed to be no time for a job.
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And another thing that stands out to me, no partner. We've talked quite a bit about dads in these cases in previous seasons, and they really run the gamut. From dads like George Honeycutt and Ryan Crawford, who move heaven and earth to protect their kids, to dads like Lou Pelletier and Jack Kowalski, who not only enable this abuse, but take a pretty active role in it.
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But in this case, there were no partners in Sophie's life at all. This is not a group that loves to go to work. With the exception of Hope Ybarra, building a career is just not the central focus of most of these women's lives. And there's often confusion in these cases about the difference between Munchausen behaviors and what are known as malingering behaviors,
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where someone engages in medical deception for a tangible benefit, like money or in order to evade something like military service or going to work. And while Sophie was raising a lot of money during this time, it seemingly wasn't the only motivator.
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These fundraisers were incredibly public, with Sophie and the girls appearing in commercials, Sophie speaking at benefit galas, and lots and lots of social media activity, in addition to coverage on the local news. Here again is that news report we heard at the top of the series.
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So while the spotlight was on Sophie for her heroic mothering, when the cameras were gone, Sophie's behavior around the girls seemed off. Here's a neighbor who spent a lot of time with the family.
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With the elements of evangelical missionary work and transracial adoption in this season's case, I've gone into some unfamiliar territory. But one thing about this story that feels very familiar is the way that Sophie Hartman appears to forever be in some kind of crisis. She seemed to move from one big drama to the next.
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What was clear from all of the interviews is that C&M were rarely alone with other adults. Their world was very narrow and Sophie was omnipresent.
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Between recorded interviews with people who knew her and the folks we spoke to, a clearer picture of Sophie was really starting to emerge. Everyone spoke about how fixated she seemed on C's health issues. And another thing that she brought up a lot was her daughter's race. Here we are again with one of the gymnastics moms.
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Would she kind of, like, get on other kids' case?
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So she would like scold a kid for like, don't clap near my daughter's hair because my daughter's hair, you don't understand.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
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We heard of other incidents from parents at the same gym about how Sophie would often make a point to bring up the girls' race.
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Now, a big note that I want to make here is that the moms we spoke to about these incidents at the gym are white. And I say this as a fellow white mom of white children. There might be dynamics here that we, as white moms of white children, are not especially attuned to. And lack of diversity in sports like gymnastics is a very real thing.
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It's also true that the mention of the existence of race can make people extremely reactive. I am in the same basic demographic as these moms, and I was raised in the Pacific Northwest in the 80s and 90s. The vibe around this was very much, we don't see color, so there's that.
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And while any individual anecdote about how Sophie discussed the race of her girls might be brushed off as a mom doing her best with the tools she has, this came up again and again with people we spoke to. And many folks had the distinct impression that Sophie was using her daughter's race as a way to get attention for herself and also to give her a kind of upper hand in a given situation.
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Now, I don't feel entirely equipped to handle this discussion. So we asked Chad Goeller-Sojourner, artist, educator, and transracial adoption consultant, for his take on all of this.
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And there it is. This is the through line. Sophie forever at the center of the story. Her daughter's challenges, the harrowing situation in their homeland that Sophie describes herself rescuing them from, her plight to snatch them from the jaws of the corrupt adoption system, C's interminable health troubles, the racism they encounter as Black children. It's all about Sophie.
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But Sophie's carefully crafted narrative of her heroism in the face of suffering was about to start coming undone. Next time.
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Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact-checking by Erin Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
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If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. There are conflicting accounts of what brought Sophie to the Pacific Northwest in 2015 after C's adoption was finalized. She told church friends she'd been called there by God. To others, as in this part of her police interview, she offered a more secular explanation.
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She's right, by the way. Seattle Children's is a renowned pediatric hospital. They are consistently ranked one of the best children's hospitals in the U.S. News & World Report and have never been off that list since they started it 30 years ago. I can tell you from growing up here and spending most of my adult life here that Seattle Children's is a singularly beloved institution.
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However, it's worth noting that, luckily, there are many great pediatric hospitals around the country, including places like Mott Hospital in Michigan or Lurie Children's in Chicago, or any number of other places that would have been closer to where Sophie grew up and where her family was.
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
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So again, while the Pacific Northwest is a lovely place to live, it just seems strange to move so far away from your family when you've just become a very young single mom of two. Even this explanation about the cold just feels weird. It's true that Seattle doesn't get extreme weather in the winters, but our winters are not warm. In fact, they're pretty notoriously dreary.
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As a reminder, we are referring to Sophie's youngest daughter as C and her eldest daughter as M. Sophie recounts serious concerns about C's health going back to her birth in June of 2014.
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This was one of the primary things we heard from the numerous folks we spoke to on background for this story, whether it was people who knew Sophie in high school or over the last few years here in Seattle. They told us there always seemed to be something, whether it was Sophie's own health issues or dramas, this big adoption saga, or something having to do with one of her daughters.
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In one of C's first doctor visits in the U.S., a checkup at the University of Washington's Center for Adoptive Medicine, Sophie tells them that C suffered from such severe withdrawal symptoms due to in utero drug exposure that the orphanage didn't know if she'd survive. it's impossible to know for sure what kind of shape C and M were really in when they moved to the States.
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Sophie describes the conditions in Zambia as dire, though photos of the girls from this time show them looking happy and healthy, and I have to say, very adorable. It's important to say, of course, that you can never judge someone's health by looking at them. But given Sophie's account of the orphanage, the absence of outward signs of distress or malnourishment are notable.
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And it was nice in these photos, honestly, to just see the girls as little humans. You know, the more we dug into this case and talked to people who'd known them, the more CNM started to come into focus. People remembered M as being this very quiet, self-sufficient, talented, disciplined kid, while C was really more on the bubbly side and very outgoing and fun to be around.
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As Sophie and her daughters settle into life in the Pacific Northwest after their move in 2015, their lives become dominated by two things. The first is C's medical appointments. Almost immediately upon arriving, C is going to the doctor constantly for myriad issues. C's health appears to dominate much of Sophie's time right from the jump.
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From the records we have, we know that when Sophie originally brought C to the States, she was treated for Giardia. This is a very common parasitic infection that is fortunately easily treatable. In the first few years of her life, Sophie reported C having a variety of vomiting spells, constipation, and other gastrointestinal issues.
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This ultimately resulted in the placement of a G-tube, this is a surgically placed feeding tube, in 2017, and a psychostomy tube, which is used to flush a child's bowels, in 2018. Sophie also reported frequent seizures and episodes of full-body paralysis. C used a number of different mobility aids during this time, including leg braces and a wheelchair.
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And three days after her third birthday, C was given a devastating diagnosis of a rare neurological condition called AHC, alternating hemiplegia of childhood, that causes paralysis and weakness on one or both sides of the body. The instance of this disease? One in a million.
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Over the next five years, C was seen at various hospitals as Sophie tried to get answers about her daughter's complex health issues. During her 2021 interview with Renton PD's Detective Adele O'Rourke and Detective Jason Wrengley, Sophie describes this medical odyssey.
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Sophie was constantly mired in some kind of battle. And this is something I remember so vividly with my sister Megan, her constant dramas and our attempts to explain them away. So yes, okay, Megan shaved off her hair in high school and pretended to be losing it. But you know, teenage girls go through stuff.
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C did have an abnormal MRI when she first arrived in the US, which could, as Sophie alludes to here, indicate some damage that was done in utero. This piece about the MRI at least is verifiable, and we'll come back to it as we dig more into the medical history.
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Based on the list of visits and procedures we've been able to put together, which is by no means a complete list, as well as Sophie's own description of the care that she required, it's hard to imagine that the family had time for much else. And yet, it's during this time that Sophie jumps in to one of the most demanding roles imaginable, being the mom of a young gymnast on the Olympic track.
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Sophie's older daughter, Em, started gymnastics when the family moved to Washington, when Em was about six. So my daughter Fiona is six right now, and already many of my fellow kindergarten parents are getting pulled into aggressive sports scheduling.
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I myself was a serious athlete growing up, and I went on to play tennis in college, but honestly, it was nothing like these kids have going on today. And I could go on a whole tangent here about this relentless drive to optimize our children, but needless to say, I see a lot of my fellow parents basically taking on their kids' sports lives as a whole second job.
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Okay, so she cashed all those bad checks, but she was really embarrassed about it and she probably learned her lesson, right? Nobody's perfect. Okay, so she did fake a whole pregnancy, but you know, we didn't like that boyfriend she was with. Maybe this is his fault, somehow. And now she's got this new boyfriend, and he seems so nice. And maybe he'll help even her out.
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So I have pretty immediate context for this. This made me very curious about these two sides of Sophie's life, where one daughter is in a constant state of crisis with her health and the other one is pursuing elite gymnastics. So we spoke to someone who knew the family during this time.
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Michelle was a fellow gymnastics parent at the gym in Kent, Washington, located about an hour south of Seattle. And this gym wasn't little kids bopping around doing cartwheels. It was serious business.
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In general, Michelle said the parents got along. So it sounds like when you first met Sophie, she seemed nice. She seemed sweet. Kind of sounds like she wanted to be, like, really involved and was, like, kind of looking to connect with the other families. Yep. What were your impressions of her daughters? Because I assume, like, I assume the youngest was there with her quite a bit as well.
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Throughout the first six years of her life, C is at the doctor all the time for testing, evaluations, ER visits, and those gastrointestinal surgeries. And this is all happening while Sophie is keeping up with her older daughter M's demanding gymnastics schedule. And it doesn't appear that Sophie had much help, if any, on the childcare front. So she took C along with her.
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Case Files 19: Rady Children's Part 3
The suit alleges that a broad network of professionals from Rady Children's Hospital, San Diego HHSA, and the juvenile court system colluded to secretly surveil Madison, fabricate abuse claims, implant false memories of sexual assault, lie to the court, and ultimately sever the parent-child relationship, all while knowing these claims were untrue.
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So that brings us up to speed on where this lawsuit stands today. And now we are going to be talking to Dr. Becks about the third amended complaint in this lawsuit. Hello. Hi, Dr. Becks. Hi, Andrea. Good to see you. Thanks for being with us. Of course. I actually just got to see you in real life a few days ago.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 19: Rady Children's Part 3
But if you want to know more about that, you guys are going to have to stay tuned for season six and the special cameo from our favorite pediatric hospitalist, former secret doctor friend. We've come so far. We've come so far. It's been such a journey. It's been such a journey. So just a little bit of table setting before we get into today's discussion.
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First of all, thank you so much to everyone who has gotten in touch with their thoughts about this series and with their feedback about Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. I've heard from a bunch of you that have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome that also have POTS or one or both of those conditions. And we're so appreciative of this feedback.
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And we are always trying to address these conditions in a way that is respectful to the people that have them. And we think it's important to talk about how some of these conditions conditions get used wrongly because we want to protect the people that have these conditions.
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And we have actually heard from a lot of you that this is a pretty known problem within these communities, which is really fascinating. And that that has affected your experience with doctors, which is exactly kind of the fear of these things really getting utilized by perpetrators or by people who are engaging in munchausen behaviors. So really fascinating to hear.
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And just to just to say, you know, Bex is obviously a very knowledgeable pediatric hospitalist. She is not an expert in Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. I am not a doctor of any kind. And also, neither Bex nor I are lawyers, but we are going to talk through this lawsuit.
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Her story begins with a reported surfing injury in 2016. Following this, according to the lawsuit, she was then diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, CRPS, and POTS. Over the course of several years, Madison then undergoes multiple surgeries and treatments for chronic pain and ends up with a host of other complications, including GI symptoms, feeding tubes, and a central line.
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We have obviously spent a lot of time with a similar lawsuit, with the Kowalski trial, and have encountered a number of similar lawsuits in the time since then. So, if you Hartman had a similar lawsuit. My sister has had several similar lawsuits. There is a big situation in Lehigh, Pennsylvania that is a little bit different, but is sort of a similar strategy.
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So we are talking about these lawsuits regularly. So we're offering our perspective in that context. We are going to have, if not the lawyers from this case, who we are still talking to about coming on for an interview, That obviously is always a little bit tricky when there's pending litigation. If not, we will have another lawyer who can help talk us through the specifics of the legal stuff.
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And we will also have a doctor who specializes in Ehlers-Danlos syndrome come on and speak to us about that to really give us a better grounding. And in the meantime, if you are someone who would like to share your personal experiences with this, with any of these related conditions, please
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um please feel free to get in touch you can send us a voice memo at uh hello at nobody should believe me.com or you can just send us an email there or you can leave a comment on spotify those are the ways to kind of get in touch and uh yeah we really appreciate that feedback and with that uh bex we're gonna pick up the story with the third amended complaint is that right
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So what is in this? So first, yeah, what is in this third amended complaint?
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Her treatment spanned multiple healthcare systems, including Kaiser Permanente, where her parents work, and a controversial specialist in New York, who we will be covering in an upcoming episode. Ultimately, Madison ends up being admitted to Rady Children's in early 2019.
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Yeah, I mean, there's some real complexity here because as we've discussed, you know, covert video surveillance has been used for decades in an investigatory capacity to determine whether or not child abuse is happening. We've covered a lot of cases where that evidence has held up in court.
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So I think one of the things, again, not being a lawyer, but one of the things that's been so interesting as I've gotten into the legal side of this, and I think even as we've seen some of these huge cases, you know, Supreme Court cases play out in the last few years. and such, it's like, you know, the law is constantly open to interpretation and challenge. Right.
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And so just because there's precedent, you know, and some I think a lot of lawyers, you know, a lot of things I've heard from people about medical child abuse cases is that lawyers don't like to set precedent or like DAs don't like to set precedent.
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But then I think there are some lawyers maybe that do and that really that is like sort of more activist lawyers that really do want to like overturn things. I kind of think about these things as like when you think about that kind of the trajectory that overturned Roe v. Wade. Right. It was a series of cases along the line that then ended up overturning, you know, 40 years of precedent.
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During this time, the hospital's suspicions of medical child abuse prompted covert video surveillance and two reports to Child Protective Services, or HHSA, as it's known in California. The second of these reports leads to a court-ordered separation from Madison's parents, which takes us up to where we begin our episode today.
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So or 50 years of precedent. So I think there is precedent where this kind of evidence has been accepted and sort of the. You know, I don't know the exact legal language, but basically there is no reasonable expectation of privacy when you're in a hospital room.
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You know, I think beyond probably like being in the bathroom or something, but like, you know, but that this is included in hospital policy and that kind of thing. So obviously this case, like part of the point of it seems to be to challenge that, right? And to say that like to set a new precedent that you actually cannot surveil families when you suspect that they're abusing their child.
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And again, it's this tension between a parent's rights to privacy versus the safety of their child. And so I think it just kind of speaks to that tension. So certainly, like, that piece about this covert video surveillance will be interesting to see how it plays out. The manufacturing piece...
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that obviously sounds like, because I think like it's not an argument I agree with that parents should have, that their privacy should go over the child's wellbeing. But I sort of see the argument, right? That like, I see where you're making a privacy argument and you're making, you know, like a fourth amendment type of complaint, right? Like that, that makes sense.
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The manufacturing piece, I think that really speaks to more of this like conspiratorial language of, implying that a hospital staff is doing something to create an allegation of abuse. It's just not a very, yeah, it's not a very reasonable argument. I mean, I don't quite know how else to say it. It gets us back into conspiracy territory, I
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I think, whereas the other one is just an argument about privacy and who should have rights to privacy.
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Yeah, well, no, I think it's inflammatory. And I think I think it's like those are two separate things. Right. It's like, OK, well, like I would argue, OK, that I again that where I stand on this is that I think like covert video surveillance should be allowed. There have been many cases we've looked at where that's been a life saving measure. So I certainly understand.
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And I also understand why it makes parents uncomfortable. But I think it's more important to keep children safe. That's where I stand on that. But like, do I think it would be wrong if providers set up covert video surveillance and then somehow tampered with it and many of like, of course, but I just don't like those are two very, very different claims. Right. So that is striking for sure.
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On February 5th, 2020, juvenile court judge Michael Imhoff dismissed the second Health and Human Services Agency, HHSA, complaint and returned custody of Madison to her parents, Bill and Dana. So importantly, we do not have a copy of this judge's order because it's not part of the public record. So we do not have the full story of why the judge made this decision.
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Yeah, it's really interesting. And there's just such interesting tensions in these cases. And I think it's like really comes down to sort of how you view the parent and child relationship and sort of how you view children, right? And I think that there are wider differences in this than I realized when I set out on this work.
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And due process is obviously something that is being talked about a lot in the news right now because there are both immigrants and citizens in some cases being removed without due process. And that is obviously a horror. And I think there are some really important lines to draw here about what freedom means, right?
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Like taking away your freedom, like if you are, you know, unlawfully deporting you to another country or jailing you, right, without going through, without getting a hearing even, you know, without going through a trial, without having due process. To me, fundamentally, that is very different than your child being removed because there is a very credible threat to your child.
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But there are several interesting quotes included in the lawsuit that have also appeared in the media coverage that give us a bit of insight. As to the evidence presented at trial about the abuse itself, all we know is that the judge ultimately ruled that he found the allegations of Munchausen by proxy to be, quote, unfounded.
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I understand where that's upsetting and where people could see that as a violation of rights and where it can be in some cases. I mean, there is a history of child removal in this country that is extremely dark, right, from indigenous populations, you know, where they put The children took their children away from families and put them in these residential schools.
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And I mean, it's not it's not without precedent. Right. So it is an important conversation. But I think like there is a real tension there between, you know, the welfare and safety of a child and their human rights, basically, you know, versus their parents rights.
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rights to have them in the house it's certainly very nuanced um so yeah it's that's really interesting to sort of think about those those amendments that this speaks to it can be so daunting to make an appointment for something first you have to call then they call you back inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question and then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar okay parts of that example were very specific to me
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Now, as a reminder, the role of a juvenile court judge in a case like this is to determine whether or not the parents can provide a safe home for their child, which this judge evidently believed that they could at this time. Now, as we've discussed many times on this show, this judge's decision could mean a lot of things.
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It could mean that he didn't find the evidence presented at trial to be convincing. It could mean that he didn't have any understanding of what Munchausen by proxy abuse is, which unfortunately is often the case with judges. It could also mean that he doesn't believe Munchausen by proxy even exists. Again, not as uncommon as one would hope.
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Yeah, I mean, I think there's so much complexity here. And I think there's like, you know, because Munchausen by proxy abuse is a pattern of abuse. So it's not incident specific. So if you are saying, and that's why it's important to look at the whole medical record. And I think even like...
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Just this sort of holistic approach to medicine, which child abuse pediatrics is a subspecialty of medicine, right? It is not separate from medicine. There are pieces of the child protection apparatus that are separate from medicine, but child abuse pediatrics and the doctors, which is what we're talking about here, are part of the medical system.
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And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, You should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
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So the reason that doctors do a medical record review and try and be as holistic as possible and get as many records as they possibly can, is because you have to see the complete picture to understand whether or not it is abuse. Because this is also important for ruling out abuse, right? Which we would talk about frequently that child abuse pediatricians
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are less likely to have findings of abuse, and they find abuse in less than 50% of the cases that they evaluate, right? And so it's important both for finding abuse, but also for ruling it out, because you could have specific things that look like red flags, right? And then you could have an expert look at that whole record and be like, oh, actually, there's no evidence of deception here.
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So this isn't Munchausen by proxy abuse. There might be something else going on with this parent, but it's not this abuse pattern. And so we're not going to move forward as though it's an abuse pattern. Right.
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So I think, yeah, if there were something where they're like, well, you know, we watched them go into like we saw the video surveillance and all of the doctors came in and planted something on the bed that looked suspicious and then said the mom did it or something just like smoking gun ish. And it doesn't sound like we have that information. And of course we don't have her medical records.
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So it's really hard to say, but I think as a concept, you're right. And I think it's really important, not for just these cases, but to like when we're, you know, we are in the golden and by golden, I mean terrible age of conspiracy theories, right? You really have to just put some critical thinking skills on it. And also like, it's just, it is a pretty like wild allegation.
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And again, it's a really common one. The conspiratorial language comes up a ton in these cases. And yeah, it's, it's strange that this is palatable to so many people to me, because I, because for that exact question, I think you just really need to like sit there and sit with it and picture it and be like, okay, three doctors go into a room and they say, what exactly?
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Like, we don't like these parents. We think they're bad parents. We don't agree with the put our jobs at risk, put ourselves in the legal line of fire, and to accuse these families so that we can get this child away from them, for what benefit? I mean, it just doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. You can't make it make sense because it doesn't make sense.
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And in fact, this order includes a pretty charged comment about Munchausen by proxy from Judge Imhoff, who said that Madison's parents, Bill Meyer and Dana Gaske, had been, quote, branded with their own scarlet letter, meaning that of being Munchausen by proxy perpetrators.
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And I think one last point about the sort of conspiracy of it, you know, what we see is actually the opposite. That even when there is every red flag and just the most damning evidence, I mean, I'm thinking about this case I'm working on right now, the most damning evidence that you could possibly imagine that abuse is happening is it is still hard to get doctors to buy in 100%, right?
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You're still going to have your outliers that just really like the mom or they have strong feelings about parents' rights or they don't believe that Munchausen by proxy exists or they don't want to get involved. I mean, it's not easy to get doctors to recognize as a group that abuse is happening right in front of their faces because it's so against their training. It's so against their instincts.
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And they always want to like something that I love and appreciate about doctors, but that also can really work against some of these cases is the doctors have this like need to get to the bottom of things and they will chase the wild goose chase diagnosis to the ends of the earth and ignore every red flag along the way for abuse. Like that happens really frequently.
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So I think it makes it doubly unlikely that this group of people specifically is going to conspire about abuse because you can't even get them to do it. Yeah. Okay. All right. So what else, what else have we got in this third complaint? This is
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This judge also seems to have pretty strong feelings about the use of covert video surveillance, saying, quote, the way it was implemented was an unbelievable invasion of privacy, an insensitive invasion of privacy. And this covert video surveillance is pretty central to this lawsuit.
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Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it is it's it's tricky once you're in a potential abuse situation because. And if you think about like something like a swallow study, well, if they're claiming that the child cannot eat and that child is, has a feeding tube and the hospital suspects that she doesn't need it, then they need to determine whether or not she needs it to properly treat that child.
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And so I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it like makes a lot of sense that they did that. Yeah. But we have, we have talked about that quite a bit, but it's, I think it's especially striking because of how many other extremely invasive procedures this child had had up until this point that it doesn't seem like a swallow study would stick out.
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Right. Well, and it's not, and feeding tubes are not without risk, right? I mean, there's a risk of infection. There's, yeah. So that's not good medicine. Like you're, if you're giving a child a feeding tube that doesn't need one, that's not good medicine. That's not do no harm. And so, yeah, it's an interesting thought experiment of like, if they'd refuse the swallow study.
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So what do we know about what was captured on this video surveillance, which took place while Madison was in the hospital with her parents? So during the juvenile court proceedings, county officials claimed that the footage showed, quote, Madison fabricating her symptomology and the mother being complicit.
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This is kind of a function of the two complaints being combined at this point because that was from Madison's complaint.
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Right, or they were saying one of the malpractice complaints in the Kowalski case was that they did not treat her for CRPS, and then they also claimed fraudulent billing because they put CRPS on there. So it was sort of like a double-edged sword there. But because the standard of care for CRPS is PT, OT, pain management,
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What the Kowalskis wanted was horse size, in their words, doses of ketamine and ketamine, five day ketamine comas in other countries. So they were arguing that because the hospital and that was what brought the whole thing to a head originally was that the mother was demanding these day, you know, this amount of ketamine that the hospital did not provide. would not give.
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So we don't know specifically what their complaint is in regards to like, she should have received XYZ for her Ehlers-Danlos, but she didn't. We don't know those specifics. They're just saying that her Ehlers-Danlos wasn't treated appropriately.
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Now, the plaintiffs assert that this was, quote, patently and demonstrably untrue and that this was, quote, debunked at trial. Without any records from the trial, this is impossible to verify. But this appears to be the linchpin of the argument that the officials, quote, falsified evidence of Munchausen by proxy. So we've basically got a he said, she said about what's on the video at this point.
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Yeah, I think we're unfortunately in the do your own research era of medicine and people have too much access to too much misinformation. And it's really I mean, I think this is why there's so much crossover with medicine. the anti-vax conversation, right?
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Is like, well, you're making a medical decision for your child that is not in their best interest based on your opinion as a non-medical professional, right? And that's just like, that's not the way that medicine should work. Or like,
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to a point right i mean you can decide like there's obviously like realms of this where it is in the parental decision you know like if your child has a fever like you can decide whether or not to like um if they're not super high whether or not you want to give them tylenol right now or whether you want to wait a little while or like um so obviously there are like there is a space for parental decision making but it just shouldn't uh it shouldn't involve things that put the child at risk and i think that's like a really important line to draw
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And I think it's a joint decision making. Joint decision making.
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And I think as a society, we have to draw boundaries. Like, is it OK to decide that you don't believe in dental care and you're never going to take your kids to the dentist, even if they're getting a ton of infections? Like, no, we would call that medical neglect.
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I think like to some degree we have to decide like as a society how we see children and how we regard that relationship and where the boundaries are on that relationship. It's like that's why child protection arrests exist. Nobody Should Believe Me is proud to partner this month with the American Civil Liberties Union.
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In the two months since Donald Trump took office, the ACLU has filed over 20 lawsuits to protect people from the administration's abuse of power and attempts to strip away our most fundamental rights. And right now, they are at the forefront of protecting immigrants' rights.
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The ACLU sued to stop Trump's attacks on birthright citizenship, to end the deportation of immigrants to Guantanamo Bay, and they're providing legal counsel to those currently detained there. They also block him from using an archaic wartime law, the Alien Enemies Act from 1798, to arbitrarily deport immigrants and deprive them of due process.
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And importantly, this wouldn't have been the only piece of evidence presented in court, as this was a lengthy investigation. Details about Madison's health during her time at Rady's are sparse.
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The ACLU is also partnering with the legal teams fighting to free Mahmoud Khalil and Rumesa Ozturk who were targeted by ICE for exercising their legally protected rights to free speech and political dissent. The ACLU is fighting for all of us. And with so much on their plate, they could really use your support. So head to aclu.org backslash action at the link in our show notes.
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However, interestingly, after the judge returned custody of Madison to her parents, she remained impatient at Rady's, which certainly speaks to her having some ongoing medical complexity, and also was, I can only imagine, an extraordinarily tense situation given the court battle. The paperwork around these two lawsuits is immensely complicated.
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Yeah, I mean, and she was in the hospital for this entire time, right?
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There are a number of amendments to the original complaint, so just to note that these next pieces of information did not appear in either of the original complaints filed by Madison or her parents, but in the first amended complaint.
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Yeah, I mean, it's a hard one to unravel without more information. But I think like the idea of a hospital discriminating against a child because of their disability is sort of hard to square. And certainly the presence of the wheelchair and the insistence that a child needs a wheelchair when they actually don't. Is so ubiquitous in these cases. Right.
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And also just want to say, too, because there was like this horrible video going around on TikTok that if anybody saw and I don't know, like I try to keep anything having to do with medicine or medical child abuse off my TikTok because my TikTok is the place that I go to brain rot and watch like videos of sheep being crazy and things like that.
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And Le Poisson Steve, which is my producer, Mariah and I's favorite obsession of the late. But anyway, there was a video that popped up and a bunch of people mentioned it to me where a woman uses a wheelchair occasionally, was like putting her wheelchair in her car and was in a handicapped parking spot.
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Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Hello, it's Andrea, and today we are sharing part three of our coverage of the lawsuit against Rady Children's in San Diego, California.
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and some man like came up to her window and like berated her for like faking so that's obviously horrible behavior on behalf of that man who chose to insert himself into the situation um and yeah it's worth saying right that there are people that are not like wheelchair bound in the way that people think of it where they cannot get out of a wheelchair but do need it from time to time um so that exists but i think certainly like the the place that things like leg braces and
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wheelchairs, you know, play in these cases of children that are either don't need them at all or are over utilizing them. So this more sounds like the family wanted the child to be in a wheelchair, either because they thought she needed it or because they wanted to prove their point and the hospital didn't do what they thought they should do.
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And I don't quite see how that can be construed as discriminating against someone with a
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And it's in this filing that we learn a really shocking new allegation, that Madison had disclosed to staff at Rady's that she had been sexually abused by her parents. And the plaintiffs, Madison and her parents, are alleging that this disclosure was a result of false memories being implanted in Madison's mind. by the hospital staff.
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Yeah. And I mean, there is this like broader question, I think, which I really worry about a lot with this show, because I think it's really important, obviously, to bring this abuse to light. It's totally under-recognized. I think it slips under the radar for the most part. And it is very hard for people to get what they need healthcare-wise when they actually need it, right?
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And so like wheelchairs, you mentioned, I saw a headline the other week that was like, it's impossible to get because so many parts of healthcare have been taken over by private equity companies. They're very involved in hospice, which is horrifying. They're very involved in a lot of things. But I mean, there's some big thing in private equity with the wheelchair manufacturers.
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And so it's now impossible to get wheelchairs repaired because they just want you to buy a new one. And so, I mean, you think about things like that and you're like, God, it's impossible for people to get within it. And so I think that has a twofold thing. It makes people react to that information one of two ways.
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They're like, well, how could people fake it when it's impossible to get what you need when you really need it? And they totally underestimate the time and devotion and fundraising and absolute obsession that families do put towards this, where they are the family that will go to the ends of the earth and can be very manipulative, etc.,
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And then on the other side of the spectrum, I think there are some people that get so obsessed with the idea that someone might be taking advantage of the system that they're like, well, if one person's taking advantage of the system, we're going to get rid of the whole thing, even if that affects the 99% of people that need it, don't get it.
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But like, we can't have people taking advantage of the system. Yeah. And so it's like you see those two things, and there's just a lot of nuance here. And I think that in both of those ways, for both of those reasons, people that do fake it—people who are abusing their kids or people who are engaging in munchausen behaviors on themselves— make it worse for everyone.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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The lawsuit further frames this as part of the ongoing medical, emotional, and psychological abuse that the hospital had been subjecting Madison to as part of a conspiracy between dozens of people named and unnamed.
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Like they make it worse for people who are trying to run those programs and give the people what they need, you know, and that it's making things worse for the people who are making policies around it. And it's really, really making things worse for the population that actually needs those things.
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True Story Media. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And the people that are having to jump through those hoops and are, you know, trying to like live their lives and work their jobs and take care of their kids and then also trying to get a dang wheelchair repaired. And then over here you have, you know, these people that are like casting doubt on you because they are faking it and they are using it to abuse their children. And it's like.
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Yeah, it's really a horror show. But yeah, I just, oh, what a morass, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Here is the language that appears in the lawsuit about this, quote, in addition to many various unwarranted tests and surgeries, these procedures also included mental, emotional, and psychological manipulation, which focused on implanting false memories of sexual abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So this is this is the systemic charge of like this is the whole system is bad. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Interesting. So, OK, so this is so this is the complaint as it stands.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah. OK, so the judge hot off the presses. So the judge will decide which of these claims can move forward and against whom. And then we'll have motions and hearings and possibly eventually a trial. What do we know about what the hospital because the hospital then filed a motion to dismiss these claims? I think all of the defendants.
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And is there anything like have we been able to glean anything from the hospital's response or are they basically just kind of pointing to statutes? I think it's very much on like foundational. Yeah. So we're not getting a ton of information on the specifics from the hospital at this point.
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And furthermore, the lawsuit claims that HHSA was in on this as well, saying that the doctors worked with a number of people, both named individually in the lawsuit and anonymously as does one through 10 at HHSA and that all of them together, quote, subjected Madison to intensive emotional and psychological manipulation, which included the use of, among other things, memory implantation techniques in order to implant false memories of sexual abuse in Madison's mind.
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Got it. Well, thank you so much, Bex, for walking us through where the case stands today. So as I mentioned before, Nobody Should Believe Me four part series is the three hour tour of this show. So we will be back with however many question mark more episodes, but we are actually going to be back next week. So thank you so much for following along with us.
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This real-time reporting is always an interesting challenge and adventure. So thanks for doing this with me, Bex. Thanks for your amazing research on this case. And we will be back next week with a little bit more. Thanks, everyone. This episode of Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files was hosted and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 19: Rady Children's Part 3
Dr. Becks is my co-host and the lead researcher for the Ratty Children's case. Mariah Gossett is our supervising producer. Greta Stromquist is our producer and editor. Aaron Ajayi is our fact checker. And thanks also to Nola Karmouche for administrative support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 19: Rady Children's Part 3
So let's examine this claim just a bit. There were a number of court cases in the 1990s that involved falsely recovered memories in children, which led to the so-called memory wars. And again, we are going to unpack these discrepancies in a future episode. But needless to say, this is an absolutely explosive accusation on the part of the plaintiffs in this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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If, as this lawsuit suggests, a group of licensed professionals conspired to implant a false memory of sexual abuse in teenage Madison's mind, which would not, by the way, be easy to pull off based on the literature about how and why the phenomenon of false recovered memories takes place, these people would be risking their licenses, their careers, and even possibly face jail time.
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There is no documented proven case in US legal history where a group of medical and child welfare professionals conspired to implant false memories of sexual abuse on purpose to remove a child from parental custody, which is to be clear what this lawsuit is alleging they did.
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There are certainly cases where child welfare workers have been overzealous, where children have recanted sexual abuse allegations, or where therapists have used poor or suggestive techniques. But that is not what this lawsuit is alleging. They're arguing that this was but one piece of a many-pronged plot to remove Madison from her parents.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Now, we don't get any additional details about the allegations themselves, but from this, we can assume that Madison made some kind of disclosure to hospital staff. Under what circumstances or exactly when, we don't know. The next major revelation from the first amended complaint is that Madison attempted suicide on June 16th of 2020, just a few months after custody was returned to her parents.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And it was this event that led HHSA to file their third report about Madison and a second petition to remove Madison from her parents' custody. The lawsuit includes an excerpt from this HHSA petition. The petition does describe details of the suicide attempt, but they are very upsetting, so we are not going to include those here. It goes on to say that, quote,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 19: Rady Children's Part 3
If you have not listened to the first two episodes, please do go and listen to those first, as this episode will make a lot more sense. So we have previously covered the events that led up to Dana Gaske and her husband, Bill Meyer, suing Rady Children's and a number of other defendants.
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The child continues to have extensive mental health needs and her anxiety regarding returning to the care of her parents has jeopardized her physical safety, all of which renders the parents incapable of meeting her mental health needs at this time. So obviously all of this is absolutely heartbreaking no matter your thoughts on this case.
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You may have also noticed that the diagnoses here may sound familiar if you listen to our coverage of the Kowalski v. Johns Hopkins case. So in this case, it would appear that the parents are arguing the child suffers from CRPS, POTS, and EDS, while the hospital is pointing to conversion disorder, factitious disorder, and somatic symptom disorder as Madison's true medical condition.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And we are going to unpack all of this a bit further. Following the HHSA report, Madison was once again detained from her parents on June 29th, 2020. In February of 2021, Dana Gasquet and Bill Meyer filed their original lawsuit against the County of San Diego, the San Diego County Health and Human Services,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Rady Children's Hospital, the Regions of the University of California, named employees of Rady Children's Hospital, HHSA, University of California, and Shailen Nino, the child abuse pediatrician.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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The second petition to remove Madison from her parents goes to court on March 12th of 2021, at which point Madison appears to be out of Rady and at a short-term residential therapeutic program called Milestones. The second petition to remove Madison from her parents' custody is based on the suicide attempt and the sexual abuse allegations, and the county rests its case on April 23, 2021.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And the lawsuit makes yet another explosive claim about this part of the proceedings. Here's a quote.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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On April 23rd, 2021, after the county rested, it was reported to the juvenile court and all parties that Madison's short-term residential treatment program milestones was going to eject Madison from the home within 24 hours of the entry of dismissal in the event the juvenile court refused to find jurisdiction, i.e. determine the new sexual abuse allegations were untrue.
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This is obviously quite a dense bit of legalese, so I did a little research around what the lawsuit is actually saying happened here. Basically, they're alleging that Madison was going to be kicked out of her residential treatment center if the court didn't remove custody from her parents.
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We don't have any direct quotes in this piece, so that is, again, the lawsuit's interpretation of what happened here. Now, there are definitely regulations around discharging a minor from a facility like this, and Madison was 17 at the time, but I'm not going to claim that these systems are perfect or that people never fall through the cracks.
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Today, we're going to be jumping back into the story in early 2020 and learning a little bit more about what happened with Madison Meyer, Bill and Dana's daughter, after she was returned to the custody of her parents and how she ends up ultimately joining this lawsuit.
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However, according to this lawsuit, the threat of Madison's ejection from Milestones was tactical. So basically, they're arguing that Milestones was now in on the conspiracy to keep Madison separated from her parents, and that they pressured the court to keep Madison in state custody.
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The lawsuit claims that because Dana and Bill didn't want to see their child, quote, homeless, disabled, and on the street, that the parents stipulated to the juvenile court's jurisdiction, meaning they conceded to let the court keep Madison in state custody. So...
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They are positing that they were given the choice between agreeing with the court that they shouldn't have custody of Madison or their child being homeless. And again, we cannot verify the veracity of this claim based on the information we have.
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The lawsuit also alleges that the county's petition to remove Madison itself was, quote, knowingly fraudulent because, again, I'm quoting, "...Madison's distress was caused and generated not by any real fear or concern about returning to her parents." but rather as a direct result of the months of psychiatric and psychological manipulation and coercion she had endured at the hands of defendants.
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Okay, so that was a lot. Let's recap. So what we know is that Madison made a disclosure of sexual abuse at some point during this time period, and that she attempted suicide, leaving a note that said she would rather die than return to the custody of her parents.
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And this is all happening on top of the existing investigation into her parents for Munchausen by proxy abuse, which led to the first petition to remove Madison. That petition was ultimately dismissed by the courts, but the second petition was granted, and reunification services were ultimately terminated. Madison then turned 18 in August of 2021.
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The lawsuit argues that all of this — the Munchausen by proxy allegations and the sexual abuse disclosures — were a result of a conspiracy of dozens of individuals across different agencies to separate Madison from her parents. and that Madison's suicide attempt was a result of their coercion and manipulation, not out of a genuine fear of her parents, as she herself said in her note.
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As to why all of these people would put their reputations, livelihoods, and potentially even their freedom at risk to remove one teenage girl from her parents, It's hard to divine from this legal back and forth exactly what the plaintiffs are saying motivated all of this coercion and conspiracy by all these people. Their argument is honestly pretty tough to track.
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I'm starting off with a solo mission to recap some of the events, and then I will be back with Dr. Becks to pick up our conversation about the legal case as it stands today. As a quick refresh, in the first two episodes of the series, we covered this complex and escalating medical and legal odyssey of Madison Meyer, who was a teenager during the time of these events.
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At various points in the lawsuit, they suggest it was these individuals trying to cover up for their own illegal activities with video surveillance, that it was their confirmation bias, that it was them trying to protect themselves and their reputations,
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or that this all was born out of plain old malicious intent and a desire to encroach on parental rights and control medical decision-making for Madison. Perhaps some of you listening find these motivations credible. I have to say I do not. I just don't see what any of these people had to gain by doing this. Providers who want to protect themselves get rid of these patients.
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They don't dedicate themselves to going after the parents. They know the stakes and they know they could easily end up in a lawsuit just like this.
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The argument this lawsuit is making is not that someone made a mistake in reporting this abuse, which is certainly a thing that happens, or that someone got their facts wrong or was overzealous in their efforts to protect a child, but rather that all of these people were part of a conspiracy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I relate with that so hard because I think – You know, I went into this process and we had originally sold the, you know, the first season of this show as a limited series and I fell out with that company before it launched because we got the, you know, tiniest legal pushback from my sister that I told everyone was coming and, you know, this whole fight. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And in some of those communications and then I have a reasonably dedicated carder of people that hate me. And, you know, one thing they always like to say is, oh, you're not an expert and you're not a this and you're not a that. And I was like, well, actually, you know, I am. And there's more than one way to become an expert.
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And when the top experts in the entire field consider you an expert, that's good enough for me. And it's sort of like you realize you're like, oh, well, none of these things are ever going to satisfy any of these people. Right. It's like no matter what you do, how many, you know, how much research you do.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
That's a really good response to that. You know what I'm like? Well, you know, I've written a book. I did a keynote for Stanford School of Medicine's conference. I mean, where do you draw the line with expert? And and then I think similarly as a journalist and unfortunately, you know, some of the pushback I had on.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes, And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Well, hello, V. Hi.
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Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Thinking of myself as a journalist, the call was kind of coming in from inside the house because that was my one of my original producers that I worked with.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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But, you know, by the time I got to the Maya Kowalski case, which I was the only media outlet that was covering that in any kind of depth and actually reading through the thousands of pages of court documents and actually, you know, actually doing the work. I was like, well, yeah, I do deserve to call myself a journalist. But it did. It came from those challenges.
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And I was like, we need to reframe what we think of a journalist. And now that's to say, not every TikTok creator, not every podcaster is doing journalism.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Well, and my perception on that is that that's coming from a fear of if these credentials are not exactly the same as they were for me, then what does that mean about my work? And it's very interesting for me interfacing with some –
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People who are a generation older than me in the field of child abuse or academics and have a lot of master's degrees, a lot of PhDs running around and me with my little Bachelor of Arts in creative writing. I'm actually on the whole, I'm really encouraged about how open a lot of those folks are that have dedicated their life to this because they recognize the need for change.
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new strategies, new ideas. And then there are those, you know, thankfully fewer people for whom the idea of someone like me is threatening.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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What's going on? Oh, man. You know, 2025 is 2025 and harder than I anticipated. I don't know if it's harder than you anticipated because you probably anticipated a lot more of this than I did.
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That's really beautiful. And I've heard you tell some version of that before or kind of reference Bob Ward's words background as an analogous point. And I appreciate it. And I think, yeah, like an insatiable desire to creep around on some person or topic is definitely a really strong entry point into journalism.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, it's like you're a weirdo.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I'm a gossip. You're a gossip?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And it's like, no, man. And I think if you don't have... The weirdo, you know, a producer that I'm working with on this upcoming season, Taj Easton, his take on this is manic curiosity. And I was like, oh my God, I love that so much. I have to credit him with that. But I was like, yes. I was like, if you don't get that feeling when you're covering something, especially if it is risky, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Especially if it is, you are going to have to take some measure of risk to report on it. It's like, if you don't have that feeling of like, oh, I want to do all the FOIAs and I want to read like everything, like, because I want to look for every... like piece in the thousand piece puzzle as we're putting this together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And even though the stuff that I am reporting on, obviously by its nature is extremely grim and it is difficult, but like the process is something that I really enjoy and can get into. And I think to the point of like the question of what makes you a journalist is, is that you're a weirdo. I think we've nailed it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
There is a lot going on in the world at the moment, and especially if you are a working parent like I am, you probably have a running list of things I really need to do that you forget about until suddenly you wake up in the middle of the night and remember that you haven't done them yet.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
If getting life insurance is on that list, our new sponsor, SelectQuote, can help you check this one off in as little as 15 minutes. SelectQuote is one of America's leading insurance brokers with nearly 40 years of experience, helping over 2 million customers find over $700 billion in coverage since 1985. And they can help you find the right policy that fits your family's needs and budget.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
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Get the right life insurance for you for less at selectquote.com slash nobody. Go to selectquote.com slash nobody today to get started. That's selectquote.com slash nobody. You can find all this information in our show notes. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
You know, now that you mention it, same because like I was married in an even year. I was born in an even year. Both my kids were born in even years. Correct. That's a good point. And then like 2011 was when my whole family thing came up. And I have to tell you, this is totally an aside, but I was spelunking through my old Facebook posts trying to find like archival whatevers.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, I mean, here on my show and in my world, we put some respect on the girls' gays and theys because that is the core of true crime, number one. And number two, I think those folks are more inclined to understand where telling stories... and telling stories about people. You know, we do all original reporting on the show for the most part, and a lot of it is, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
People telling us about their personal experiences, and it can very much and very directly on our show functions as a safety mechanism. The whole kind of ethos of the show is... If we talk about this issue, more people will know. Kids will be safer.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And if we talk about the specifics, if we name the people we're talking about, that's been the biggest risk I have taken as a journalist and making this show that other companies did not want to get on board with. And I understand because they watch their bottom lines. And just like you, not wanting to sell to NBC, didn't want anyone else telling me how to do this job.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I've been really lucky that I've gotten to keep the show independent because I was like, oh, just there's no that early experience with, you know, with the original company. It really made me realize I was like, okay, there is no other way to do what I'm trying to do here except independently. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah. And, you know, it's funny, V, because first of all, thank you for saying that. And thank you. Thank you for doing this interview with me. This is really such a treat. And it's it's a very full circle moment for me because I we originally met when I was I did an interview with you that that never aired because of all of the reasons that I've talked about of the original.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And I found a post from myself on New Year's Eve going into 2011 where I said, I don't see any reason that 2011 isn't going to be the best year ever. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Well, and I'll say, V, like I give some grace to especially in those early days, like I've noticed, you know, and I've got I've gone on sort of increasingly. large podcasts other than my own, including, you know, including Armchair Expert and stuff like that, where I've talked about all of this stuff.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And it was surprising to me that nobody's sort of legal team, that these legal teams kind of relaxed. But I think it was because I'd gone first and I'd gotten to it to a lot of people. And then that sort of created a different you know, a different sort of ecosystem for it to go into.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And it's like a part of being in this game and the business side is that you have to be comfortable with, like, if you're doing an interview with someone else, it has to go through their legal team and their standards and what risks they're willing to take. And you kind of have to always be okay with that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, yeah, stuff that can happen. And I mean, I, you know, again, like that, I had already been through that experience with my own show. And I want to talk about, like, I think actually with legacy media, I think a lot of people's trust in legacy media outlets is very shaken.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I think one of the things, certainly from my perspective, but I think this is probably shared by a lot of people that shakes it, is that it is necessarily tied to large media. commercial interests. And it is a really different sort of trustworthiness equation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I know. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
If you're talking about, you know, me, who's an independent podcaster, I'm the person if you want to trust what's going on in my show, you have to trust one person, and that's me. If I want to trust what's going on with vSphere and what's going on in your sub stack, which is excellent. Everyone should subscribe to it. Thank you. On Under the Desk News, I have to trust you vSphere, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I don't have to worry about what corporate interests, what billionaire that owns that outlet, you know, is leaning on the scales. And I think we saw this in a really, you know, in some kind of like shocking ways, even with, you know, like Washington Post.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
You know, that like really sort of were very disorienting for me as a person who does, you know, who does have some faith in those outlets and understands that for the most part, those outlets are doing real journalism with real fact checking. And then you're just sort of like, wow, this is really like I think we sort of think of those places as trustworthy because they're big and robust.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Okay. I like that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But then actually those things can turn out to be weaknesses. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, and given how seismic these changes are in the media landscape, how can consumers evaluate what is a trustworthy news source and what isn't? And there's sort of like, I guess the question of like, I think no one news source is going to be a complete news source in this day and age. We do not have the evening news. We're never going back to that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
We're not going back to that sort of monoculture. But how can we evaluate whether a given news source or creator is trustworthy?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
That is a really good perspective, V. And, you know, just by way of introduction, you are my and many people's favorite and most trusted news source in these trying times. Thank you. And you are a journalist. You're a podcaster. You're a TikTok and YouTube and Substack creator. You do incredible, thorough fact check.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes or And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Well, V, one thing I really wanted to make sure to ask you about is, because this is one of my favorite YouTube videos that you did, was about the difference between misinformation and disinformation. Because we deal with a lot of both on this show. And this is like the way that you frame this is something I think about constantly. So can you walk us through this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, and I think for what we talk about on this show, I think about a lot. And even when I do interviews or in some of the coverage of the book or something, there'll be statements where I'm like, well, that's not quite the correct way to define Munchausen by proxy. Or there'll be some kind of small piece of misinformation or an old study or something like that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And that's the benign version of it. And it still can be a problem because a lot of people are potentially getting the wrong idea about something.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But it's very separate and distinct, as you know, as you explain, like from something like Mike Hickson Boggs work and the medical kidnapping pieces where I can see the architecture of how they put this together, because I do know so many of the facts in several of these cases where I'm like, ah, I've got it. You have a very like there is such a deliberate way they put it together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
You know, so I think when you can see the architecture of how it's put together and what it's trying to accomplish, like to me, that is a signal. that that is disinformation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And we share a sort of unkillable hope and optimism with those people, I think, where like initially I really went in because, I mean, my whole origin story is really watching the media get A, this topic wrong, but then really watching that cross over into my actual sister and her case being covered by the media in this way that was so harmful and watching them use these horrible,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
horribly exploitative pictures of her daughter in medical contraptions over and over again. And just thinking these media outlets are contributing to the abuse. They're not just covering- Well, sure.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
insightful reporting and you somehow managed to stay positive which is truly you've been such a touchstone for me both as just a listener and a person who consumes your content but also as a creator and how to keep a light on in, I will say, an often particularly hopeless feeling corner of this cause that we talk about on the show. So I just thank you for all of that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Right. You know, so there's a lot of coverage of Munchausen by proxy, even if it's sort of straightforward coverage that is getting the facts right, that uses these photos. And I think that's a whole problematic thing. But, you know, and then in the medical kidnapping case,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
stories they're getting those photos from the parent who you know in my sister's case is the abuser right and they're using those photos to co-sign that abuser's version of reality and it's so damaging and I think um and because that parent isn't concerned about exploiting their child they're not putting any barriers on the kind of images that they'll share I think originally I went in and and it's just like I this really seems impossibly naive even though a few years ago
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But I went in and I was like, oh, these outlets, you know, Mike Hickson-Bogg, Taylor Mifandreschi from, you know, the local journalist here who covered it with him. They just don't know. They don't know the truth. I'll tell them the truth and then they won't do it. I'll be like, this doctor that you guys are slamming saved my niece's life. I'm telling you, I'm a family member.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I've been around this my whole life. And they have ignored it. They've ignored no matter how much evidence. And it's like, oh, it doesn't matter how many different ways or which framing I use to point out to them that they've gotten this wrong.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Media consumption, right? Not media accuracy, not doing those other parts of the job. And yeah, this journalist, Mike Kixenbach, has done a lot of these pieces. So he's very well known to my community. And I remember Detective Mike Weber, who's my co-author in the book, was just pointing out like, yeah, he just... Money. Like the answer is just money. The answer is just this gets clicks.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I was like, surely it can't be that. And I'm just like, OK, sometimes it really is. Sometimes people's motivations are really that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, us too. And I mean, we try and be because all of what we do really is trauma informed journalism when we're talking to people about their first person experiences, and it can be extremely tricky.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I really relate so much with that, that story about your mom, because there was a long period of time where, and even honestly, sometimes still, you know, where somebody asked me if I have any siblings. Sometimes I'm just like, no. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And, you know, I am, as I mentioned, a proud dust bunny.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, and I think, like, that really is, like, that's this type of lie that we should be extremely – give a lot of people a lot of grace for, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
So can you can you tell us how did you come to be under the desk news? How did this all get started?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah. I mean, thank you so much for sharing all of that. And that is, I feel like, such a deep bonding point between the two of us. And yeah, I mean, I feel the same way about my younger self right now. This is almost, we're coming up on 14 years since this happened. And I look back on my younger self and I'm like, love her, barely know her anymore.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, I love that. And, you know, you wouldn't think that my entire career becoming about this thing would be...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
how I got distance from it but strangely enough it has been because I think like the more that like it has turned out to be that I could make what was very triggering something that I could feel some control over and I mean when I look back at sort of this period between when this happened and when I started talking about it publicly which really sort of started five years ago
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I mean, there was a time when I couldn't be around kids, period, sick kids or otherwise. I just couldn't be around little kids without just losing it. Freaking out. Like when you lose a sibling in whatever way you lose them or you just have this huge thing that comes and splits your life into that you did not ask for and you did not cause.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
You feel so profoundly helpless that finding a way to be of help to other people has just turned out to be the best thing that could have ever happened to me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But it's...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I mean, here we are. It's just where I can't imagine sort of being anywhere else. And I have to tell you, I had this like really profound moment because I, you know, before this I was a novelist and that's what I thought I was going to do with my life, right? I thought I was going to write my cute little novels and just like boop-de-boop and, you know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And like I have sort of lived some version of that life, but then it was interrupted by this other life that I guess I got instead.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I remember thinking because I worked in book publishing, you know, from when I was 22 to my late 20s. And I like really, you know, gave me a very front row seat to developing this fantasy of being like, you know, published author and stuff. And I was like, I was a publicist. I got to go on these media things that I got to go in like the town car and like watch these authors and like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
go you know every once in a while we go to get do something fun like go to a morning show and yeah take the author and they'd get their glam and you just look at them and be like oh it's gonna be me someday and then you know a few weeks ago I was in New York and I was going to the Tamron Hall show which was super fun and you know got to go with Mike and got in the town car and did the glam and the whole thing and I just had this moment where I was like thinking about my younger self as I kind of always do when I when I'm in New York and I was just like I
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Okay. I was like, tell her she gets there. Don't tell her how.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And, you know, something I really wanted to make sure that we talked about, V, because, you know, I was really thinking about you when I was down in Texas after the book came out. Because I, you know, and this has been a really profound part of this experience that I did not see coming when I started making this show, is that it has been an opportunity for me to
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
to really talk to so many different types of people and people in different places than I would normally go and go to these really like rural towns where I do a lot of my field reporting and spend time in just places I wouldn't necessarily normally go and really have this like deep and profound moment of like bonding and shared experience with people who have really different life experiences than me and really different politics than me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And that has been such a gift. And we have a lot of conservative listeners of the show. And when I was in Texas, you know, obviously, so that room was probably more, you know, and I, somebody had asked, you know, about Mike and I being kind of an unlikely pair, right? As a liberal mom from, you know, artsy-fartsy type, like from Seattle.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And Mike is a bachelor cop, you know, who's like, as I would say, less liberal, right? Like pretty conservative. And, you know, doing this work, I am constantly reminded that we do have more in common than we are often led to believe. And I was like, there are many people. people who are invested right now in turning us against each other. Don't fall for it. Don't turn on your neighbor.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Resist that. And I'm realizing I'm saying that to a group of people that doesn't agree with my personal politics. And I pointed to Sheriff Bill Weyburn and his family who were there. Which was so meaningful to me. And I was like, listen, you know, like I found people like people like the Weyburns who like I love and admire and we have so much mutual respect and understanding.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And like they don't agree with my politics any more than I agree with theirs. And they like had the trust in me to tell their daughter's story. And like that was so meaningful. And it's like. I say that while also having very strong feelings about what's happening. Politics is not my beat on the show, but it is very funny to me when people get on, like, expect me to be apolitical.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I'm like, I'm talking about... Everything is politics. Everything is politics. And especially like this, right? We're talking about child abuse. Yeah, especially this. The criminal justice system, law enforcement, these things could not be more political. Now, they do not break on where I'm like, I am a very left-leaning person. I don't think the left does a good job with this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I don't think the right does a good job with it. I think they both do better or worse with it in different places for different reasons. So it's not like a black and white thing, but it's certainly not apolitical. But nonetheless, it's like I really value this show as a space to have a mixed audience, I guess. And like, I know that you also have a mixed audience. I do.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
That's a great example. And I think, you know, just to give people an example of like kind of something that I've seen that comes from the left that is also sort of can be infected by, right? It's not just, we don't want to like just say that it's one or the other. Oh no, I got a left one coming up too. I would love to hear that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
It's like, you know, like I've seen with this like medical kidnapping beat, right, which is that's the big conspiracy theory that we are up against, right? You know, I've seen like that there are reasons that people on the right are susceptible to it because it fits into like a parent's rights, which obviously on the extreme is very negative.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
troubling and problematic so even people who are just more like geared that way can see it from from that standpoint of like more willing to create others yeah yeah and then and then like on the left it really fits into this like oh the system disenfranchises parents right so and that's true this is just not an example of that and like sometimes it really is just people don't know and and i it of course makes me think oh how many of these things am i
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Like also doing that, right? Where I'm like, oh, something fits into my like thing that I care about.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
True Story Media. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Throw money in. year at this point.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, no, it's really true. And I think it feels like we live in this time of just an absolute fever pitch for conspiracy theories, right? Oh, sure, yeah. And one thing that I realize we have become sort of equipped on in this show is that we are talking to people, and I am a person, who... is in recovery for experiencing gaslighting, right? And I mean, like, real gaslighting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Someone is systematically making you doubt your version of reality. Someone has unsettled your ability to believe yourself and what you're experiencing. And that takes a long time to get over, and it's a hard thing to come out of. And we all, in these situations of these cases we cover on the show, go through some version of... oh my God, for some period of time, I was bought into this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I was bought into this thing and it was a lie and I'm an idiot. I caused harm. And I think when someone... has the courage to come out of that and not everyone does. And it's because like when people are bought in, sometimes they just go deeper and deeper. And I think it's really important to, you know, keep an open door for someone to come out of it anytime.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Like, I mean, I can't say it's never too late because obviously there is harm being done. But like, I just think it's really important to make it a safe space for people to come forward, even if they have been bought in for some period of time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
You know, we had in this last season, someone who'd been friends with the perpetrator for 10 years, and then listened to the podcast and realized, you know, and came out of it. And we had a really wonderful conversation about it. Again, not being Pollyannish about it at all, but how do we create conditions where we can come back together being so divisive as it is right now?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
It makes me trust you. you more. The fact that you're able to have the humility to say and recognize that you were a human being who made a mistake about something, that makes me trust you more. That makes me trust, oh, if we can take in new information and adjust their belief system accordingly, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, I like that. And it's a really good example of like, you don't have to wholesale throw everything you believe in out the window to beat. And we're just to even like draw a limit. Well, so V, just a couple of last questions. I'd love just some... advice from you. I know a lot of my listeners love you. And like, how are you? Like, are you okay? Like, how are you coping with all of this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Because I think most of us are feeling pretty over many of us are feeling pretty overwhelmed by the news. And you are facing it for your job, dealing with it every single day. Like, how do you get through it? And how do you kind of like, what kind of pieces of very hard and earned wisdom can you pass on to us about dealing with such an overwhelming news environment?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, I love that. And I think that you turned out to be the hero we needed in that period and going forward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I love that, V. And I believe that, too. And, you know, you said something in a recent episode of American Fever Dream where you were talking about this period after your brother's death where you were just really numb and just kind of out of your mind. And I really went through some things. And similar in the wake of what happened with my family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And then you had this purely beautiful description of sort of realizing that the world was still there. And that, like, you know, the I can't remember what you said, but I'll tell you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah. And then, you know, you do get that gift of resilience that I think both you and I have experienced. Well, V, I cannot thank you enough for being here. This has been such a joy. It's been such a treat. I know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Only your friendship. And maybe an introduction to your mom because she sounds amazing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I feel like she would like this show. If she was a night shift nurse who listened to the police scanner, I'm like, Maureen, do I have a show for you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Oh, Maureen, what an icon. V, please tell us, where can we find you? And what do you want people to do the most? What's the most helpful to you in maintaining this incredible independent media project that is you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I personally subscribe to the Substack. I love it. It's one of my, like, you know, I really trimmed down my news media diet as we were heading into this year, which turned out to be a good choice. And that was one that made my list, as well as your podcast, American Fever Dream with Sammy Sage, which you can find wherever you listen to podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
All right. Thanks. Thank you. Nobody should believe me. Case files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories. And you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that anecdote. And I feel like, you know, that really speaks to why what you do works, because you are a very reliable, solid news source, but the delivery is very much... our friend V telling us some things in their suit or in their banana shirt.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I think that that's really something that, you know, especially again, to, you know, talk about the timing of it all, like in that moment when we needed both information and human connection, it really was this perfect time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I wonder for you, because this is something that I've really enjoyed listening to you talk about on your wonderful podcast that you do with Sammy Sage from Betches Media, American Fever Dream. It is one of my favorite podcasts, and I have loved listening to you guys, especially as you were talking about going to the Democratic National Convention and sort of talking about really
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
This transition that I feel like has really been speeding up and is it like kind of full velocity right now of this transition that, you know, you and I are the same age. And, you know, I have been in podcasting only the last couple of years, but have been in and around sort of media, working in books, working as a publicist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
you know, that we've been watching happen for, I don't know, the last 20 years, and that it suddenly is, you know, really accelerating of legacy media going away or changing shape dramatically and new media really coming to the forefront. I've loved hearing your thoughts about this on the show. And I wanted to ask you, for yourself, being that you started
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
this project that is now your full full-time job full-time gig right and like I have such a similar entry point right I started this as a limited series that I saw as a passion project that I saw I know and then lo and behold now it's my full-time job and I feel very lucky to have that but it was such an unexpected um career turn and you know I was always interested in journalism I you know went through a strong period of wanting to be Barbara Walters you know when I was growing up and like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And like really thinking that might be something that I wanted to pursue. But I did not plan to sort of become a journalist. And it's taken me a little while to sort of embrace, like just be able to say that, I think. I mean, you must have gone through kind of a similar sort of personal journey.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
And I wonder, like, when did you really make that transition to like, okay, this is not just something I'm doing in this lighthearted way. you know, way or, you know, and really like embrace that part of like, no, I am a journalist. You know, I deserve to be here as much as anybody. And you are a journalist, not a what did NPR call you? Newsfluencer. Not a newsfluencer. Oh, my God.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
I mean, I love NPR. Have the toe bag. Love it. You know, I same. It was one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
Yeah, of course they can. Yeah. And, you know, that was a call-in, not a call-out, right? When did you really sort of realize, like, oh, okay, we are doing journalism here. This has all the bells and whistles. This is as robust as reporting that you're going to see in a legacy media news outlet.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 11: New Media Journalism and Death Eaters with V Spehar
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
This is an interesting theory, that the discovery of these diaries was part of some master plan on Sophie's part. And frankly, I'm not going to put anything past her at this point. But I've spent no small amount of time reading through and digesting these journals. And they often sound like Sophie is writing herself a very grandiose and fanciful story about what she's doing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
That this is an elaborate justification to herself about what she's putting her daughters through. That Sophie, actually, is the hero of this story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
And following that, Adam Shapiro took on another medical child abuse case, Sophie Hartman. People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
we learn from these diary entries about um about her dynamics with her children and in this section where she's being very honest and straightforward and she has this quote that um i'm so angry with my children abusive even hitting and pinching and yelling lord what have i become who is this bad soul it's me filth um you know and i it says like i want to be abused i crave pain
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
Um, and obviously this is just, you know, disturbing to read. And I think, um, there's a through line here actually for, you know, I think one of the things that I didn't realize about this abuse when I was going in right before I, when I, when I just had my end of one, that was my personal experience was, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
and that we have learned is not the case from so many survivors, including, you know, Joe, who we both know who is on our fourth season, is that this abuse is not confined to the medical arena. There's this profound lack of empathy for the children. And I think, like, that journal entry from Sophie really expresses that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And then the other thing that really stuck out to me was these journal entries. You know, there are some journal entries from her older daughter, Em, that were just really, really heartbreaking. The investigative summary includes many journal entries from Sophie, but also some from Sophie's older daughter, M, as well as letters that she wrote to her mom. And these were so sad to read.
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While M wasn't the main subject of this investigation, she was also obviously deeply affected by what was happening in the household. And while there is less in here about M's medical history than C's, we do know that she'd been prescribed antidepressants and ADHD medications. And she writes in her journals about her brain feeling fuzzy and confused.
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And heartbreakingly, her journals also include reflections on her being a freak and Zambians being freaky people. And to the extent that Em was, to borrow Jim's metaphor, a prop in Sophie's play, her role seems to have been gymnastic star. You can see her straining for her mother's approval.
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In one letter to Sophie, she writes about feeling like she's just a gymnast and that she has to be a perfect one, a reflection we also heard about from the moms at the gym and Sophie's neighbor. M writes that she only wants to make her mom happy, but she feels like if she makes a mistake, her mom will be angry and yell, and she clearly blames herself for her mom's anger.
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The report also includes one of Sophie's responses, where she writes, quote, I'm sorry I put all my anger on you when you make a mistake. I'm sorry for screaming. I'm sorry for saying that you were being a shitshow.
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But the most disturbing narrative in these pages is the one about C's death. And these reflections are not isolated. Sophie was telling many people C would die young, and the forensic examination of her devices revealed a number of chilling searches.
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Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
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In the spring of 2019, the day after Seattle Children's denies one of her requests to place a central line in her daughter and put her on TPN, which is intravenous nutrition, Sophie writes this. How is it that doctors who had never heard of AHC before they came to work today get to make decisions regarding her care?
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I will absolutely fail C if I fight for the duration of her life rather than the quality of it. The best decisions that have been made for C in the past have been big ones that I suggested far before any member of her team was ready to do it. Stalling those decisions only let doctors check off their boxes while her suffering was prolonged. Is this what it will always be like?
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Or are there doctors willing to take risks for the sake of her quality of life? In another entry that is undated, but presumably from around the same time, Sophie writes this. Later in this entry, God, or again, Sophie as God, responds, saying, She had been starting to talk even in this journal entries and elsewhere about quality of life over length of life.
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And, you know, had sent messages to friends saying, oh, well, when, you know, I was just thinking if she dies, I'll call Cassie and make her come lie in bed with me while I cry. I mean, it just really, it seems like she was.
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I sort of wanted to run that theory by you. We can only speculate in this case or in any given case, but I sort of wonder if there is some point where the death of the child actually becomes more useful to the perpetrator.
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You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
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Sophie as narrator in this particular case is especially compelling because she is literally narrating this imaginary world that she's building for herself. And as a writer, you can see in some of these entries that she's actively planning out her next book. You can also see in her writing how she is tying this all in to the grandest narrative of all, the notion that Sophie is on a divine mission.
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She frequently refers to C as her, quote, harvest, which is biblically loaded language that speaks to this idea that C and her suffering, and of course, Sophie's suffering as her mother, will bring souls to God, that there is a higher purpose for C's pain. Sophie talks about how suffering is holy and elsewhere asks God how he could bear to sacrifice his only son.
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Sophie is heroin and martyr all at once. The sacrifice of her daughter is positioned as divine. And in a very real way, when you look at the search terms from the forensic examination of Sophie's devices, you can see her storyboarding her next season.
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In the first year of the pandemic, Sophie starts weaving a new plot for C. Now, in addition to the age C diagnosis, she adds in the precocious puberty storyline. So to ground us, here is what happened in reality. Sophie brings C to an endocrinologist at Seattle Children's in July of 2020, reporting a bunch of symptoms that she says have her concerned for precocious puberty.
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In this exam, there are modest clinical findings, but these are discordant with lab results and a bone scan that shows no signs of precocious puberty. C also has an MRI to rule out any brain mass that might be causing the symptoms Sophie is reporting, and this comes back clear, and a follow-up examination of C shows her to be completely normal.
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Sophie then continues to push for a surgical hormone implant against doctors' recommendations, insisting that these, quote, cycles that C is experiencing are exacerbating her AHC episodes. And during this time, she also tells friends and providers that C is in full-blown puberty and that the likely cause is a brain mass.
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So what do we know about what Sophie was up to on her devices during this time? Her search history shows numerous telling entries, including precocious puberty, pituitary tumor symptoms, and pituitary adenoma surgery.
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She also searches supra-catheter, which is a surgically placed catheter for people who cannot urinate on their own, which is one of the symptoms that Sophie was reporting to the endocrinologist. Sophie also looks up a foundation that is dedicated to children with endocrine disorders. So it's not just the next diagnosis she's pursuing.
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She's also looking for the worst possible reason for this diagnosis, a brain tumor, which she reported to see doctors and teachers, as well as a possible surgery for that tumor to pursue and additional surgical interventions for the symptoms she's reporting. And she's looking for the next foundation to support all of these efforts. It's honestly diabolical.
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There are also, as Jim mentions, a few searches around cancer as well as searches related to leukemia. At first, I assumed this had to do with another possible storyline for C. But then I saw that one of the searches was Down syndrome and leukemia. And I remembered that during the investigation, Sophie was actively attempting to adopt a child from China with Down syndrome.
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It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
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She also looked up Infusion Center Valley Medical. Now, infusion care can be used for a number of things, but it's best known for chemotherapy treatments. So again, this looks like part of a plan. And Valley Medical, by the way, this is a brand new hospital in the area that she can try out after ostensibly having worn out her welcome at Mary Bridge and Seattle Children's.
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Sure seems like she has her sights set on a whole new spinoff series. And while her daughters are the primary victims in all of this, they are far from the only people who got hurt.
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Groups dedicated to AHC didn't just support Sophie emotionally. They supported her financially, helping pay to send her and C out to Duke to see Dr. McCotty. And as for the research, Sophie was reporting things way outside the norm for AHC. like severe gastrointestinal issues and 32-day-long episodes.
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It's easy to see how a case like this, in such a small sample set of real cases, could really throw off the data. So far from Sophie's efforts with C, quote, helping the cause, as Sophie wrote about, or, quote, leading to a scientific breakthrough, they're messing with that progress and taking resources that should be going to children who desperately need them.
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Back in the spring of 2021, C and M are living with Sophie's sister, Sam, and her mother, Anne. Sophie is charged in May of 2021, but her parents quickly secure a bond to bail her out.
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She is granted supervised visitation with the girls, and while Sophie at first claims she is staying with a friend quite a ways away in Mercer Island, it comes out later that she is in fact staying very close to the house where the girls are. This whole thing is an epic fail, just an absolute disaster from a protocol standpoint.
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As we outline in our American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children guidelines for these investigations, it is crucial that children are not placed with a family member who does not believe the abuse is happening. The guidelines also recommend against visitation because of the intense psychological manipulation involved in this abuse.
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And certainly, allowing a suspected perpetrator to bring the children food and drink, as Sophie did, should never be allowed. No one doubts that separating a child from their parent is very hard on everyone. But when the safety of the child is in question, we have to take that seriously. Detective Lee explains why it's necessary to be vigilant around custody placements in any abuse case.
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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Sophie's family has never given any indication now or then that they believe anything other than that Sophie is a wrongly accused mother, meaning they cannot be counted on to protect the girls from her.
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Dr. McCotty himself, who both Sophie and her attorneys insisted was the one who really understood C's health, told the police that C needed to be with an objective observer and that if grandmother is going to be a bias observer, that is going to be a big, big problem. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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And I think I think they have to do that. I mean, I don't think you can. But he should have, I suppose. I mean, if he gave you the impression in your first conversations with him that he could do that, that he could like because you were paying the bills sort of act on your behalf. I mean, I don't think that would be legal or ethical.
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And that was... Right, sort of things have come to a head now. Yes.
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For example, in my sister's case, one of the damning pieces of evidence was video surveillance of her dumping her daughter's anticoagulant medication onto her hospital bedsheets. This was an event that preceded the child being admitted to the pediatric ICU with a life-threatening blood clot. This was not the only piece of evidence, not by a long shot.
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If it sounds like we were woefully naive about all of this, we were. We had never had any interactions with DCF before the first investigation into my sister 14 years ago. And though I disagreed with my dad's decision to hire attorneys for Megan and her husband Andy in the beginning, all these years later, now that I'm a parent myself, I understand.
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He wanted to protect his child and his grandchild. He thought he could influence the outcome. And when he realized he couldn't, he stopped paying Adam Shapiro's bills. But Shapiro has stuck around, and he's done a lot of work on my sister's behalf. He also defended her in the second investigation over my niece, and he sent me various cease and desist letters over the years.
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I suspect it's likely that some of this work has been pro bono, and he and Megan obviously became close, which could explain how she got hired on the Hartman case despite having, to my knowledge, no legal training. I can understand Sophie's family being in shock when this all came up, and for doing what people with means usually do in a legal crisis. lawyering up.
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It's really difficult to accept that someone you love could be capable of this, and I understand parents wanting to protect their daughter. So I can forgive them for not knowing what to do right away, just as I can forgive my brother-in-law and his parents for not seeing what we saw right from the beginning.
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What I can't forgive is staying in denial and letting the children suffer while you're presented with more and more evidence that something is wrong. The first investigation into Megan, prompted by her push for the G-tube surgery, came to, well, not much. After an eight-month investigation, DCF declined to file dependency, meaning that Megan would regain full custody of her son.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
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There was no criminal investigation this first time, though there should have been. Whether it would have made a difference is another question altogether. My parents and I had been thoroughly iced out by the end of the first investigation. We were the enemy who'd accused Megan of abuse.
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But from what the social worker was able to share with us, it sounds like the court essentially told Megan that she needed some therapy. Megan frames this first investigation as going nowhere because DCF found no evidence of abuse. But a great many DCF investigations end this way, with a parenting plan and nothing further.
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And given how prevalent the idea of medical child abuse being a matter of a mom's mental health is, I can't say I'm surprised with this outcome. My parents and I were bereft when DCF didn't file for dependency. They'd revealed to Megan and her husband early on that my mom had told the doctors about her concerns, and this revelation had blown up my family.
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And then they hadn't done anything to protect the kids. But then, not long after this all happened, my father got a message from my sister's husband, Andy. He'd been on his own journey of revelation with Megan, completely separate from the abuse investigation.
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Megan's crippling debt, much of this from unpaid medical bills, had come to light, and there were threats, Andy told my dad, to garnish his wages. This was bizarre because my dad had asked Megan many times to send him all of her remaining bills and he'd pay them. But of course, then he'd see them, so maybe not such a mystery why she didn't share. And it wasn't just the money.
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In a detail that I thought was a bizarre outlier to Megan's story, until I heard it from multiple other fathers who'd been married to perpetrators, Andy had discovered evidence of numerous affairs. We were honestly relieved when this all came out, because Megan couldn't blame any of this on us. And now that Andy had seen how deceptive she could be with his own eyes, he'd come around, right?
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In a lengthy series of emails between him and my father, Andy tells him that he wants to help us reconcile with Megan. He said he knows Megan needs help, but he continues to insist that she'd never lie about her child's health, that their son really does have all of these issues.
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In that case, my dad writes to him, please send us his medical records so we can see for ourselves and put our concerns to rest. He refuses, telling my dad that it's, quote, not appropriate to share them with him, which is pretty rich coming from someone who is hitting up his estranged father-in-law for money.
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The back and forth continues until Andy arranges a meeting with him, my father, and Megan.
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Yeah. I mean, were you surprised at the gall of that? They were in a, it's not surprising in the context of Megan and her behavior, but like, It's sort of a shocking move in some ways.
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So they wanted you to fund their legal pursuit of suing Children's Hospital for falsely accusing her. And what did you have to say to that?
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I believe. But I mean, was that your last conversation with Megan?
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Any family member who finds themselves in this situation faces a horrible choice. Do the right thing to protect the children and risk your relationship with the perpetrator, or look the other way and become an enabler of the abuse. And if the state doesn't do anything, or if they're not successful in court, you lose both your family member and their children forever.
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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And as the children's aunt and grandparents, we don't have any rights. So speak up or don't. It's a hard choice, but to me, it's a clear choice. You don't ignore it when children are being harmed. Megan's husband and his parents chose denial. And I will never forgive them." But Sophie's parents were in a different position than mine.
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For one thing, there was no partner and no in-laws who could provide support if they didn't. And they were paying Sophie's legal bills. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to afford Shapiro or Megan to come in and bend the system to her will. So while I can afford them their initial shock, they were sitting in these hearings.
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They've seen everything I've presented to you in this series, and likely much more, because nothing from the actual dependency proceedings is in the public record. And when you keep supporting someone long past when you should have known better, as I discussed with my mom, Karen, you're no longer just enabling abuse. You're participating in it.
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You've been presented with so much evidence about the abuse, so much evidence about the about her deception, and you have chosen to disregard all of that and give her the ability to keep doing this. I mean, somebody it's like that's the thing is like, you know, it's come down to the same thing with Sophie. Somebody has to keep paying the bills.
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Like eventually, if you run out of people who are supporting you, if you get to the end of the line. So it's like the people who are like the people who are doing that, like you are supporting an abuser. You're giving them, you might as well be handing them the weapon. You know, it's sort of like that is the weapon.
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So I think for like grandparents and aunts, like even, you know, if they're listening, like I hope that they are telling those kids that they have attributes other than being sick, that they are capable, that they are whole people who deserve love and recognition. And they've failed them in so many ways, but I hope that they are still, because we didn't get that chance.
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We didn't get that chance to love them and care for them. We were so villainized and like really watching for me watching you and dad be villainized when like I know what good parents you were and grew up in the same house. And like I know how much we would have loved to be in those kids lives.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. When I cover Munchausen by proxy cases, I approach them with a central question. If this case is not Munchausen by proxy, then what is going on here? Now, I did reach out to Sophie to ask her if she'd like to give us her side of the story.
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At the heart of this work that has become so central to my life, it has always been this, a message to my niece and nephew, a way back if they should ever be looking for it, and a message to those who are still in their lives to keep eyes on them and to reinforce that they are whole people, not just the story their mother wrote for them.
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I felt a bit conflicted about covering this season's story because I don't have the cooperation of the family. But I ended up feeling that it was all the more important because I believe the Hartmans have turned their back on these children. Anne and Sam eventually went back to Michigan.
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The conditions we explained earlier in this episode stayed in place for some period of time, but were ultimately lifted and the case was officially dismissed with prejudice, meaning it can't be brought back to court, in November of 2023. The children are back with Sophie, more isolated now than they were before.
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And Sophie didn't just follow my sister's footsteps in her battle to get her children back. She kept on with the Megan Carter playbook. Next step, sue everyone. Next time.
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Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact checking by Aaron Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and Engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
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Special thanks to my APSAC committee colleagues, Dr. Jim Hamilton and Detective Michael Lee. Thank you also to Olivia LaVoie and to my mom and dad. It was very special to be able to sit down with them for the show, and we will be releasing those full conversations in a future episode.
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Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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We never got a response, but that's a standing invitation. Sophie, if you're listening, we would be happy to hear you out. But just as we did get plenty from Sophie in her own words via her memoir about her travels to Zambia, we do hear Sophie's account of the time leading up to this investigation via her journals.
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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And if you are inclined to believe that Sophie Hartman is innocent, this is one of the hardest things to explain away. When Sophie's children were placed in protective custody in March of 2021, the officers also served her with a residential search warrant.
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. As medical child abuse cases play out in court, they often become fixated on a certain detail.
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In the search of her rent and home, the police picked up a number of journals, and Detective O'Rourke's investigative summary, which is in this case an incredibly detailed narrative, includes scans of about two dozen journal entries that the detective had found were especially relevant to the case. These are harrowing to read, but also fascinating.
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They are some of the most direct insights I've ever gotten into the mind of someone who engages in these behaviors. Much of Sophie's writing in her journals is as florid and purple as her memoir. Many entries are written directly to God, who sometimes writes back.
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And many, though not all, of these entries are dated, which gives us insight into what Sophie is thinking and feeling during a particular medical event. For example, when C is just under two years old, she visits the University of Washington Center for Adoption Medicine, where Sophie reports that she is having seizures and weakness on her right side.
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An MRI reveals a slight static encephalopathy, and the doctors report that this could be indicative of mild cerebral palsy. This is long before C's diagnosis of AHC, at the beginning of this very long road. A few days later, Sophie writes in her journal, quote, I trust you, Lord. I do. I lay it all down.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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The heartache, the unknown, static encephalopathy, global development delay, epilepsy, speech and vision impairments, cerebral palsy, drug exposure, all of it. She then lists out a number of doctors' names and some other names as well, possibly people on her care team, though we don't know. And Sophie writes, all of them. I lay down. I need a word.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
God or Sophie as God then responds, Sophie, quietly persist. I see it all. Do not waver as her advocate. Just keep moving forward. In another entry, Sophie lays out a laundry list of symptoms and asks God to, quote, bring it into the light and to, quote, give the doctor's wisdom to see beyond C's cuteness and charm.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
There were 73,000 pages of medical records subpoenaed in this case, which were reviewed by a child abuse pediatrician who found extensive evidence of abuse. And much like Sophie Hartman's daughter, after being separated from my sister and observed by the hospital, my niece's health improved drastically in a short period of time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
God, bring forth all that she is to light, all the damage done to her brain, all that isn't working properly in her body, all that is frustrating for her, all that is debilitating, all that is destructive. Bring it all into the light.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
She ends this entry with a lengthy list of diagnoses, which, with the exception of cerebral palsy and static encephalopathy, no doctor appears to have mentioned to her. Many of Sophie's journal entries read like a kind of fever dream, but one entry in particular is utterly straightforward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
This entry was on a loose-leaf page, which was undated, but from context, clearly after Sophie had adopted her girls. In this wrenching entry, she seems to be confronting her demons head on, laying out a series of events starting from childhood and up through her time in Zambia and as an adult. She writes, "'How can I embrace my story if I don't understand it? How can I do this? I am bad.'"
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
She remembers this pattern going back to when she was four years old, writing, Later in that entry, she writes, She recalls faking a hand injury in high school, faking a knee injury, mono, and meningitis in college.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
She recalls a surgery she had on her ankle and remembers lying to friends about it becoming infected, and then lying about some gynecological issues around the time she went to Zambia. In light of what came next, Sophie's lies about her own health feel a bit minor. But these details mirror my sister's story just almost beat for beat.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
My sister had this knee surgery where they didn't find anything once they went in. Sophie talks about faking a knee injury of her own. The gynecological complications, it all just really feels like a playbook. And this journal entry from Sophie gave me such a window into what my sister's experience of this own part of her life might have been like. Sophie writes, quote,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
And this entry seems to draw a very clear line from lying about herself to what came next. It ends in desperation. She writes, quote, "'So angry with my children, abusive even, hitting and pinching and yelling. Oh Lord, what have I become? Who is this bad soul? It's me, filth.'" These entries were a lot to process, so I brought in a heavy hitter to help me unpack them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
But from the documentation I've seen, her lawyer Adam Shapiro seems to have somehow really honed in on this video evidence, arguing that Megan was actually using one type of syringe rather than a different type of syringe that the hospital said she was using, and therefore the hospital staff and police officers didn't see in that video what they thought they saw.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
As someone who has dedicated his career to studying this abuse, Jim had also never seen anything quite like these journals. And we talked about Sophie's recounting of her own history with medical deception.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
Jim and I work closely together. We're colleagues on the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by Proxy Committee, and also at the nonprofit Munchausen Support, where we both serve on the board.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
We spend no small amount of time in this group discussing the utility of the psychiatric diagnosis of factitious disorder imposed on another, which again is the official name for the disorder underpinning Munchausen by Proxy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
The notion of this being primarily a mental illness often does more harm than good in court, where it tends to either create confusion about a perpetrator's culpability or just add one more complicated diagnosis to the mix for the two sides to fight over.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
But as Jim says, it's really impossible to tell the story of what's happening in these cases, either in court or anywhere else, without explaining why someone would ever engage in this behavior that seems so ghastly to most people. It establishes a motive.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
If this all sounds like it doesn't make much sense, it doesn't. No criminal charges were ever filed against my sister. Following the family court's return of her children during the active police investigation, detectives ultimately referred the case to the prosecuting attorney in April of 2020, and that prosecuting attorney declined to file charges.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep07: Who is This Bad Soul?
So why write all this down? Was she trying to soothe her own internal conflict? Was she really asking God for help? Did she really believe God was answering?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Well, and she was, you know, you kind of mentioned this before of like, you know, they are such good manipulators and they have this way of like telling one person, one thing and telling another person, another thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And then sort of like, and especially when you're talking to kids who are obviously very, very much under their mother's influence, but with like her older daughter, you know, she's, and this is something we've heard from survivors a lot, right. Is that like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Their parent is telling them, you really are sick, but you need this because of this thing or you'll die, you know, or you have to tell the doctor this or you have to, you know, lie about this or do this other thing because otherwise, you know, you'll get taken away from me or someone will take, you know, and really just make them really fearful of telling the truth.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And they sort of have this, yeah, like thing of like they're making sure that people don't, you know, their kids don't say what's really happening because they're terrifying them of what will happen if they do. So it's really, really sad.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something. First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar. Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me. Thank you so much for having me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. ZocDoc.com slash nobody. You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes. And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Summer is coming.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still rainy and gross, which it can truly be any time of year. And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
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Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required. Equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Yeah, this case is actually quite a lot more straightforward than a lot of cases we talk about. Like the induction part and the poison part is like there's blood tests and they found the pill. It's like they have a lot of like much more clear-cut evidence than sometimes you sort of have something where...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Yes, the overall picture, if you're able to look at that, then that is very clear that there's abuse. But you don't have like this incident that people can just easily wrap their heads around. Like she was poisoning the kids. She was giving them, you know, 48 pills of Benadryl, what have you, and causing these symptoms. And they could have died as a result. Like it's a very straight line.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And I know, you know, with many of Mike's cases, my proxy cases, it's not quite that straight. Right. So it is. It did have that going for it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Right, because she made some omissions during her interview with Weber. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
So open plead means you're pleading guilty, but you're not agreeing to the sentence they're offering. You're just going to say, I'm pleading guilty and it goes to sentencing. Is that basically?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Who does this? Is this this law? This is a DA that does law enforcement.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Right, because they're not trying to get to the guilt or innocence verdict. So it's not like the full jury trial that we think of like law and order. It's like it's sort of a pared down process.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Yeah, that's a brave kid.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And this is, you know, we know from talking to Weber that she was also poisoning other people's kids during this period, in fact. Like, it's not just that she had broken her bond conditions. Like, this seems like such a clear example to me of, like, someone who is dangerous to the community, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
It must have felt like you're suddenly in a horror movie, right? It's just like you thought you were in a normal movie and now you're just like, oh my God, I'm in a horror movie and I didn't know it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
So he was mad, presumably, that you went over his head.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Another different boyfriend.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Right, and so the people who are meeting her don't have any reason to think that she's a criminal, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
We're in the midst of the sentencing hearings now and they are talking. The lawyers are to the D.A. is talking to her before she goes on the stand.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Just kind of prep prep. OK, so they're prepping 13 year olds for to go on the stand and they reveal to her the identity of her biological father, which she did not know before.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Oh, my God. Oh, she got them filled while she was there. So they knew. Oh, my God.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
After we'd already said the thing, we didn't say anything else.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Right. Because, of course, it's like, of course, they're going to be curious. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
So how so you go you go through the sentencing hearing. And I mean, it sounds like at this point. You're very worried that she's going to get off with probation because the D.A. has basically been telling you that this might end with probation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Perfect. And I'm like, so. It just never ends. It never ends.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Stuff that was reported in the news, probably, yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Yeah. And that's completely, completely compulsive. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
So they have the sentencing hearing and then the judge makes his decision. And were you sitting in the room when that happened?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
News to news to her parents. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Like sort of this is a woman who needs help. Kind of that. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
I mean, even women that kill their kids. I mean, two of the most famous cases of child deaths, much, much lighter sentences. I mean, that's shocking. Six years is shocking in one of these cases. Not because it's too harsh, in my opinion, but especially for someone who's really showing in every way possible that they're going to commit it as soon as they have the chance again.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
But just because you don't usually see judges taking that this seriously. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Yeah, because this sounds like it had been just a grind from like the moment that you discovered the abuse to like that moment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Being able to talk to other people who have personal experience with this really remains one of the most rewarding parts of my job. We would love to know what you think of these Case Files episodes and if there's anything in particular you would like me to cover in a future episode. And I wanted to tell you, you can now leave comments on individual episodes on Spotify.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Yeah, well, we'll see when he's up for reelection.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Well, we're sure glad to have you in the fight, Derek. I'm sorry for how you got here, but really, really, really appreciate you coming on to tell your story because I agree with you that I think that awareness is a big first step. But I, you know, I'm so glad that you're doing so much to connect with the community and that will help you help them too. And like, you know, there
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
They're better off tackling how to sort of combat all of those things that we always hear from survivors. You know, they they have time on their side. Right. So it's they're not trying to do that when they're 30.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's really beautiful. And I'm really happy for you and your family that you had a good outcome. And Jessica is where she belongs and will be there for at least quite some time. And thank you so much for taking the time to share. tell this story and share this was, I know it's not easy to relive all these details.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And I just, I really, really appreciate having your voice on here. It makes a huge difference to people listening. And, you know, we have a lot of survivors who listen. We have a lot of folks in the medical profession. We have a lot of folks who work in various sort of child protection agencies. So it's really, you know, it really resonates when you, when you hear some story from someone like you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. Today we've got part three of our series on the Jessica Jones case out of Texas. This is the second half of my conversation with Jessica's ex-husband, Derek. The details of this case are just astounding, and I'm so appreciative of Derek for coming on to share his experiences.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Well, you two were married. She had two boyfriends on the side.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
So that's a fun way to get in touch. And also you can always email us at hello at nobody should believe me dot com. If you'd like to support the show, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Patreon, where you also get our subscriber exclusive show, Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours, which is the twice monthly show I co-host with Dr. Bex. You also get episodes early and ad free as a subscriber.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And did you at some point you had a conversation with another dad who had been through a case?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And this is George Honeycutt, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Oh, yes. Yeah. I remember thinking with my sister. So there's a couple of things I want to be sure I say to you. I know this feeling so well. I remember feeling like. I could get away from her and kind of start to like wrap my heads around the facts. And then I would go back to her and be like, what about this? What about this? What about this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And like, while I was in person talking, it was almost like reality would just become distorted. And I would kind of leave the conversation being like, oh, okay, I guess that made sense. And then like, it didn't make sense, but it's just like, you couldn't, it was like, I couldn't even hold on to reality when I was with her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
Like, I couldn't hold on to what I knew about reality when I was actually sitting with her, when I was actually talking to her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
I mean, I just I want to I want to tell you because I I hear what you're struggling with. And, you know, I'm a parent. I have a six year old and a two year old. And I if I found out something horrible had been happening to them under my roof, I'm sure I would go through all those same emotions. And I think that's really normal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And as I'm sure you know from talking to Weber, who's been through more of these cases probably than anyone, and has seen how people do react in these situations, you did do the right and protective thing, and you did protect your kids.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And for the first time, we will have the entire season, our upcoming fifth season, ready to binge at launch over there on January 2nd. We are working our buns off on wrapping up these episodes right now. And let me tell you, I think you're going to want to binge it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
I mean, I can tell you this situation in my family has been going, and my sister's never been held accountable despite two investigations, and despite years and years and years of incidents with several different kids. And her husband has stood by her through all of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And it does not matter what evidence you put in front of that man, video evidence, piles and piles of records, multiple investigations brought on by multiple hospitals, he will defend her. It doesn't matter. As many people, unfortunately, who will go down with the ship as will do the hard thing and the right thing and protect their children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And I can tell you that my niece and nephew have suffered. My niece has almost died. it's like it's not an automatic thing. You would think. You would think, I think, being in your position, you know how that feels. You know what it's like to be confronted with that information. You know how horrified you were. You know you did the right thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
It's really hard to envision how someone could be presented with compelling evidence and do the wrong thing, but many of them do, and they become – I think not just enablers of abuse. I think at certain point they become part of the abuse, right? They're the people who are, they're contributing to it, right? And you can see how this goes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
I mean, it's like anybody who questions them becomes the enemy. And so, you know, if the dad of the kids is not protective, there's nothing anyone else can do. You know, unless unless there's a successful criminal investigation, which unless Mike Weber shows up, you know, and unless you have the right D.A.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
I mean, the police in my sister's case did do a pretty thorough investigation, but it just was, you know, and that's like a whole other story. But I just I wanted to say that to you because like. you did do the right thing. And I know this is very fresh, like this all just happened.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
So I hope that like, you know, as you go forward and I know you've connected with some other people who've been through cases and you know, George Honeycutt, who's wonderful. And, you know, I think that's why it's so important to talk to other people is because like, you do need that perspective. Like you did do the right thing and there isn't any way you could have known.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And we all trust the people. We trust our partners. We trust our sisters. We trust our family members and our friends. Like, You can't you can't go through life not doing that. And I think that is one of the hardest things is that like you get out the other side and now you can't trust people the way that you used to. And that's that's a whole other challenge that you now have to deal with.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
But like, I just really want to say that to you, like this story, like you did the right thing and you did it right away. You know, you didn't require months of convincing. You didn't require another investigation with another child. It's really like you were protective and your kids are lucky to have you. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 08: Jesika Jones Part 3 with Derek Jones
And if monetary support is not an option, commenting on Spotify, leaving us a review on Apple, shopping our sponsors, and telling friends about the show are also things that help us out a great deal. Now, here's the episode. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Where it's like, okay, you can't go near a school anymore. You can't go in, you know, you can't be with your own children or any children unsupervised. And I just think we're very, unfortunately, we're very far away from drawing that line as a society with these particular perpetrators. And I honestly think that part of the, that the cultiness is part of it, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I think they really are, like, this cult connection resonated so much for me when I first read it because it's, Not just looking for language to describe my sister Megan, but language to describe the people who had continued to support her despite so much evidence that this abuse was taking place and over a period of, and so much evidence of deception, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
But yeah, I think I was really looking for like an explanation for, okay, I have watched her husband, right? And, you know, her like his family just watched this whole thing unfold over a period of years. And she's been investigated twice by like different, you know, there were reports that came from different hospitals. There's been four hospitals that have reported her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
There was a child that died in between her two children. And you just think like, OK, how could you just watch this? And still think there is nothing wrong. And, you know, in the police investigation that happened with her second child, you know, there was in the police report her father-in-law saying to the police, this is a witch hunt just like last time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I'm like, that is very, like, conspiracy language, right? And so... Can you help us understand what is going on with the long term supporters? And I think there's like two kind of groups that I want to talk about separately. Like one is like the family members or people that are close to that person because of personal connections.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And then I think there's like a whole other separate thing that goes on with the doctors who buy it. But yeah, for like the family members, like how can we understand what seems so baffling from the outside when you're sort of looking at the evidence this person's been presented with?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yeah. I mean, that really resonates with me because I'm just, as we're talking about this, like, thinking back to, you know, the last time that I saw any of these people face-to-face, which was this meeting that we had with a social worker, organized this family meeting, and it was a complete debacle because my sister brought with her, like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Her husband, her in-laws, three of her husband's aunts, their friends. It was just, like, this entire entourage. It was just me and my mom. And I just remember, like, we were trying to, like, and this is so early. I mean, this is 14 years ago. This is when, you know, this is the first investigation. And I just remember, like, looking at my brother-in-law's mother, Ruth, and
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
and just looking at her and being like come on ruth like come on like just she was the only one whose face just sort of seemed somewhat sympathetic when my mom and i were talking like the rest of them were just like oh these evil people you know we're trying to trying to separate their you know daughter from her child because reasons because that benefits them somehow and it just like
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
You know, kind of this thing of, like, we're just really pleading, like, why would we be doing this? Like, why would we be telling you that, like, we know her entire history and we're scared and we're worried about her and we're worried about our son? And just, I remember just thinking, like, come on. Like, you have to know there's something wrong here. And...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And then like subsequently, you know, after the investigation wrapped to like nothing, they like told my sister to get therapy. And then her husband had discovered that some other deceptions and he kind of came back around briefly and was like asking, you know, my dad for help and all this stuff. And we're like, OK, OK, he's seen it with his own eyes. She can't blame us for this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Like, OK, he's going to like see that there's a problem. And then he just like went right back underwater. And I really think back so much on that. Those kind of two moments, because I think those were like the last off ramps. Like, I remember you're talking in an interview about this, this sunk cost fallacy that like the longer people are in it. Is that I mean, is that true?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Like, how does someone get out? Like, how do people not just get deeper and deeper and deeper in?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Welcome, Rachel Bernstein. Thank you so much for being here with us today.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
You know I love quince. I talk about it here. I talk about it in my real life. My friends love quince. My producer Mariah loves quince. My mom loves quince. I am wearing a quince t-shirt right now. No exaggeration. I think probably half of my clothes are from this brand at this point. So it is finally warming up here in the Pacific Northwest.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Rachel is a therapist who specializes in cults and cult-adjacent behaviors, and today we are digging into coercive control, manipulation, and tackling the question of why people go on believing things even when they've been presented with mountains of evidence to the contrary, which is a question that feels pretty timely right about now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
That's encouraging that you say the piece about community and support because, you know, one of the things that we've done with Munchausen Support, the nonprofit that I founded and now my wonderful colleague Bea Yorker is the president of, is these support groups, right? For survivors, but also for family members. When this happened in my family, for my parents and I, like...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
it did feel very clear what we had to do it just didn't so i mean do you think when people are sort of like having that like internal battle do people just like compartmentalize that other fear and it just seems like that would be so like psychically exhausting to do over a period of years like does that take a huge toll on people when they're when they're are they like sort of hiding from themselves i mean that seems very stressful
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yes, absolutely. So we met when I was on your wonderful podcast, which I highly recommend. I think listeners of Nobody Should Believe Me would love this show, Indoctrination. So you are a therapist and you have an area of expertise and a specialization around therapy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
cults and working with family members who are impacted by this, cult survivors, and other folks that just really have maybe cult-y personalities in their families, folks with narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic traits. And so there is so much crossover with what we talk about on this show in terms of family dynamics, in terms of gas lighting, just so many things.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yeah, that really, that tracks for me. I, you know, and I think there's, there was a period of my life where I was doing that, right? Like, because there were many things that happened before, before this abuse situation started that were, where I look back and I'm like, that's pretty weird that we just all moved on from that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
You know, the biggest incidents I think being, you know, the faked pregnancy, right? That's a very disturbing thing to do. Yeah. I don't know actually that when she was in my life, I really appreciated at all how scary she actually is. But maybe as what you're saying, like maybe I sort of like there was a part of me that did know kind of this person is really capable of anything.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I think like that is the thing with when someone is, you know, especially on the extreme end of a perpetrator, like if you are capable of doing that to your child, what are you not capable of? I mean, there is no, like that is a boundary that even like many people that would do many harmful, scary things to other people would never do it to their own children, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So if that boundary doesn't exist, then like no boundary exists. And so I think they are, they are terrifying. And I think that's a piece of what makes people not look at it. Because I think you have to sort of rearrange your entire worldview if you think that someone who presents as a nice, sympathetic, loving mom can be the most terrifying person you've ever met.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
That's an entire thing that I think people are just... often maybe not willing to look at. And I wonder specifically something that has really come to the fore for me in some of the cases we've looked at, and especially this last one that we featured on the show, the Sophie Hartman case, is the role that doctors play in this abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I think, you know, initially when I was, you know, when I was covering these cases, and certainly actually in my own experience, You know, in my own situation in the family, like the I really thought the doctors at Children's that reported my sister, the doctor at Mary Bridge that intervened, who I believe she saved my niece's life.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Like, I am very used to looking at doctors as either unwitting participants. Right. Where, OK, it's not a doctor because we get this question all the time. Like, why don't they charge the doctors and who put the G-tube or whatever else? Right. well, if that doctor was doing that based on lies, well, that doctor's not culpable for that, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And it's very traumatizing for the doctor to have been used in that way. But I think I've really become clued in to how susceptible some doctors are to this In a way that you would think, like, a doctor of all people should understand this abuse, right? Like, they should have the framework for being able to understand this abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And what you see is, like, you know, again, like, I think one of the very culty things about these perpetrators is they really engage in this, like, splitting behavior, right? So it's like... Every doctor who won't go along with what they want to do is the enemy and they're out to get them. Every family member who doubts them is like you're you're it's a very us and them dynamic.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And so what they tend to do in this like doctor shopping pattern is like what I sort of now believe is like they're looking for a mark. Right. They're looking for someone who will go along with their version of reality. And then in some cases and then, of course, that doctor is the hero.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So it's really become like I've really seen where the health care system from like actually championing these perpetrators is. you know, on down to just like their unwillingness to report, which is again, a behavior that I think makes sense out of self-interest, but it's still not acceptable. So like, what do you think in that sort of like professional context?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Like what's going on with those doctors? Why would they do that?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I remember that when I first read about the cult connection in the Munchausen by proxy literature that's been written by some of my academic colleagues, it was like all the lights went on in my brain because I think it is so helpful to have language for things, right? And to have sort of those dots to connect. So can you tell us just a little bit about your work and what you do?
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And then we can dive into how this all ties together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Something I certainly think about a lot, and I think a lot of our listeners are family members or otherwise sort of connected to children that may be emerging from this cult at some point or not. And it's really heartbreaking because, you know, survivors, it's... It's very tricky.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Like you definitely see, and sometimes the split happens within families, but there are survivors that emerge into the world and get a little bit of distance from their parents and, you know, go off to college or get in a relationship with someone else who helps them sort of unpack it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And then they go on this whole journey of discovery and they get their medical records and they really, and it's a horrible and difficult process to like recognize that this has happened to you. And then there are survivors that just will never break free, and they will go on to defend that parent, and they will say, I know all of this was my mom would never hurt me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And you can understand, like, emotionally why that would be so hard. So, for those of us who are on the outside hoping that that person emerges someday from that dynamic – What should we know about how to approach those people, how to help those people? Like, how do we help get people out of the cult?
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Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yeah, I love that advice. And I think it resonates for me, too, because I think that's kind of the place that I've come to, right, with my sister. Like, I do have a lot of good memories with her. We had a really nice – from my perspective, we had a really nice childhood together. You know, we were close, increasingly less so as we got into our 20s. But, like –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I don't want to, like, I think that is one of the hardest things and so much harder, especially for survivors, right, for, like, the people who are children and that's their parent. Like, you don't want this new information that you have to go back and infect your entire life with that person and every single memory you have with that person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And so I do think, like, being able to hold both things is really important. helpful. And yeah, and I think like that, that is part of the reason, you know, and again, I understand why people feel the way they feel about these perpetrators and angry and all of that stuff. And it's certainly like the other people who've been hurt by that person, and then had to watch them do this to children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
There's a lot of reason to feel angry and hateful and, you know, all those things. But I think like, I do think, you know, I see where it's much more helpful to just, like, let the person have whatever complicated feelings they have as long as they understand that they need to be safe in that relationship.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Then, like, you know, watch a lot of survivors dealing with this of, like, how do I have any relationship with this person? Like, do I – is it okay to, like –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
have some communication with them or none or you know it's really really complicated so i love the idea of just really like honoring that um and i think like i don't know too like in terms of people who maybe have been like adults who were around and came to the realization at some point um
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I think it's really, I think it's really important that we make it safe for people to come forward, even if they have been in the past, not helpful to the situation. You know, like I, like, listen, the reality will never happen. But the reality is if like Andy, you know, my brother-in-law called me tomorrow, I'd be grateful to him. I'd still help him, you know, do whatever we could.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Um, again, not going to happen, but like, how do we make it safe for people who may have been collaborators unwittingly or like maybe long past the point when they should have known, like, how do we make it so that they can still come forward? Because you don't want to cut that. You don't want to cut that as a strategy off. Like coming to later is better than never coming to it all. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
It's like, how do we create an environment where people feel like they can take that, take that risk?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yeah, I appreciate that. And I think, you know, some people may be listening and just thinking like, well, this is like, why should you ever forgive someone who did that? And like, why should you, how could you not be angry? And I think like, it's okay to be angry, but maybe don't be angry at someone. them, like, go be angry on your own time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Because I think, like, what this all is in service of, right, like, is the thing that we always need to keep is, like, what is best for the children? And, like, it will be better for the children if their parent comes around, even if they're, like, of age. You know, I know for, like, survivors that
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
where there was a father figure that did not behave in a protective way, that even as adults, if that father were, which they often are not able to, if that father were able to acknowledge what happened and give them a full accounting and stop defending their mother and really reckon with that, that would be so much better for those children, that that could be part of their healing any time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So it's like, Yes, like personally, you can have whatever feelings you want about like that person and what they did. But I think it's like, you'll never be completely separate from your parents, right? Like regardless of whether it's gonna be a situation or not, like we're all just like entwined. We're always gonna like be affected by what's happening with those parents.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And so like the more people you can sort of get. onto the side of the children the better and i feel like that's sort of like incumbent on on you if you can to sort of get over whatever your personal feelings are about that person knowing that it will be better for that child if family members do come around whenever they come around
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yeah. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for being with us. I could talk to you all day. And yeah, can you tell everybody where they can find more Rachel in their ears, in their life? Where can folks find you?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Well, thank you. I really appreciate your time and we'll stay in touch. Thank you. I'd love that. Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I am so excited to share today's conversation with Rachel Bernstein, host of the Indoctrination Podcast.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Our sixth season is coming in June, and we've got lots of great stuff for you in the meantime, including our deep dive into the medical kidnapping lawsuit against Ratty Children's in San Diego, a look at the Bell Gibson case, which was featured in the new Netflix show Apple Cider Vinegar, and some other fascinating tidbits.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Can you say more about that, your professor in your master's program? Because I think that's really interesting. And I think it's an example of like, we tend to think of cults as like the Netflix document, like compound. And it's a religious cult. And it's like this very sort of like Hollywood depiction of it, right? And I think it exists.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And sort of cult-like dynamics exists in a lot of other places. And so you tell us in what way that program started to feel like a cult to you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
If you are a subscriber on Apple or Patreon, we're talking about the Peacock documentary, The Anatomy of Lies, which is about the Elizabeth Finch case this month, as well as bringing you some updates on the ongoing Kowalski saga in Florida. And just as a reminder, as a subscriber, once again, you'll get all eight episodes of season six on the day they launch in June.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I mean, Rachel, I'm sure you can probably guess where my mind is going hearing this story, that you've just completely pinpointed the reward that perpetrators of this abuse and folks that engage in munchausen behaviors where they're doing it to themselves, like that is what you get, right? Like that is the emotional reward. And it is very real, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I mean, I think, like, that sort of sense of being taken care of, and if you were, you know, because we always talk about how these behaviors are maladaptive coping mechanisms, right? And so, like, you can see how if someone who was wired that way had a little bit of that experience, that that might, and then was also a person that,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So without further ado, here is my conversation with Rachel Bernstein. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
you know, had these other sort of constellation of things that makes them engage in deception, how that could just get like ratcheted, ratcheted, ratcheted up. And I always do, you know, try to bring this down to earth for people because I think, especially at the extremes, you know, in the cases that we talk about where someone's harming a child,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
It seems like such baffling behavior, but I actually think that there is a pretty basic human thing at the core of it, which is that people do need love and care and belonging, and having a crisis is one way. It's not a good way, especially if you're manufacturing the crisis, but having a crisis is one way to get that, right? Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yeah, absolutely. And I think however far your personal sense of compassion and empathy can extend to people who do horrible things, that's okay, right? Like, it's okay to feel like they're a human being. We don't need to, you know, like, if you don't feel any compassion or empathy for a person who does that, if that's the extent that you can, then that's also fine. Also very understandable. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
But none of that compassion or empathy that you may feel for a perpetrator should ever interfere with protecting the child. And, like, that is the important thing. And we cannot let those things be commingled. This is not – yeah, it's like this is not –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
an excuse it's not a reason it's not by you know by all intents and purposes it's not a thing that can be treated or remedied so because it's so such a compulsive behavior right so yeah I mean I think it's a it's a fascinating question but yeah I think we do have to like I think it is really important to draw lines in society and that there are certain things where
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
if you do that to a child or if you do that to another person, you know, especially with children, like, okay, well then you are not a safe adult. You should never be around children again, unsupervised, ever. You know, you just like, I would like to see us seeing this in the same way that we do with, you know, with people who are sex offenders, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
A light bulb really went off for me hearing Dr. Turek explain this piece. Sophie routinely describes herself as being in this literal battle between good and evil, fighting a righteous fight, like this passage from her 2016 memoir.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
Now, it would be unwise to take anything that Sophie Hartman says or writes at face value. But given the context, we also can't just chalk passages like this up to her tendency towards purple prose.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
Perpetrators lie about everything. And being around one of them just leaves you constantly on your back foot. As these cases play out in court, they often become hyperfixated on a single piece of the puzzle. Perhaps an event that was captured on video surveillance. Or they go on a fool's errand to prove or disprove a single rare diagnosis.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
Now, I am wholly unready to assign any purity to Sophie's motives or to the work of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who go abroad on missions each year. But I can certainly appreciate that the work of saving souls may emanate from a sincerely held belief. And in some denominations, as Dr. Turk explains, this work takes on a particular urgency because time, as they see it, is running out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Got it. So the idea being that if someone lived in a foreign nation where Christianity wasn't a major religion and they just didn't know about Jesus and hadn't had the chance to accept Jesus as their personal savior, then they are sort of a lost soul. Do I have that kind of right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
This idea of, quote, saving people is really at the core of the work championed by churches like Haven. And it provides a handy framing for all that Sophie does in Zambia. Who in this community would ever question a young woman who gives up her comfortable life to go and save people from eternal damnation?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
And it's hard to overstate just how primary this goal of soul saving is to the evangelical movement. This is a duty that takes primacy even over basic earthly needs like food and shelter. Sharing the word is priority number one. You know, we can never say what's in someone else's heart.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
But with this understanding of her religious context, it's certainly possible that Sophie felt genuinely called by God to go to Zambia. It's also evident that this was a decision that her community not only accepted but celebrated her for. This is not, of course, how Sophie describes it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
And in doing so, they completely miss the forest for the trees. Because the lying isn't just a feature of this abuse, it is the abuse. There may be physical abuse or poisoning as well, but the deception is always the primary weapon. And while there are many mysteries around what really happened with Sophie Hartman, one thing we can be sure of is that she is an unreliable narrator of her own story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
If you'll recall from the last episode, she describes being practically persecuted for deciding to go on her mission trip. But this discrepancy would turn out to be the tip of the iceberg when it came to the distance between Sophie's account of her life in Zambia and the truth. Summer is coming.
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S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still rainy and gross, which it can truly be any time of year. And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill.
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And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required. Equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something.
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First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar. Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me. Thank you so much for having me.
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S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show. As we talked about in the last episode, it was hard to keep track of people, places, locations, or any details at all beyond the proselytizing Sophie was doing during her time in Zambia. But given that this is Sophie's motherhood origin story, we needed to try to get to the bottom of it.
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S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
So, thank goodness, I had my talented team on board to help with sleuthing. First of all, we're here with our lead producer, Mariah Gossett. Hello, Mariah. Hi. First time on the mic, Erin Ajayi. Thank you so much for joining us. Erin, you are our super talented researcher, and I have to say you're also doing some producing this easily, I would say, on several of these episodes.
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S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
So you are doing so much work behind the scenes this season, and there's so much work to do. Thank you so much for being with us, Erin. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited to dive in today.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
We know this because she tells us so in the pages of her very own journal, entries of which were included in the case files. She writes, When it comes to suffering, I am a compulsive liar. As we covered last time, much of Sophie's memoir sounds implausible on its face.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
Our conversation with Dr. Turek really started to turn on some lights for me as we got into Sophie's framing of herself as being on a mission from God, with anyone who pushes back on her work or her desire to adopt C&M being, essentially, on a mission from Satan. This idea that she's not only doing God's work but being persecuted for it is central to Sophie's narrative.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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But just because this book is not a truthful representation of Zambia, or even of Sophie's time there, it doesn't mean that it's not extraordinarily telling. Munchausen by proxy cases typically begin while the mother is pregnant. This pattern, as we've talked about in previous seasons, usually begins with obstetrical complications, followed by a preterm birth.
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This organization, GEMS, which stands for Girls Everywhere Meeting the Savior, states their mission this way. Our vision is to see girls around the world actively and enthusiastically expressing love for God and others. Girls equipped, motivated, and passionately engaged in living out their faith. Our mission is to bring girls everywhere into a living, dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ.
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This organization was founded in 1958 as part of the Reformed Church in Wyoming as a sister program to the Young Calvinist Federation. The original name was the Calvinettes. The descriptions of their work on their website really speak to the evangelical mandate to bring Jesus first and worry about the rest later.
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This organization has grown and changed over the years, and it has roots specifically in Zambia going back to 2006. In 2009, they began construction on a school in Zambia, and the following year adapted the GEMS Zambian curriculum for use in all developing countries. So this is what's going on within this organization when Sophie is working with them.
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But again, with the haziness of Sophie's writing, we don't know exactly what she did while she was there. We reached out to multiple other organizations that Sophie seems to have ties with that did work in orphanages, and they all had similar answers.
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Basically, that they don't have records for anyone they do work with on the ground, which frankly is worrisome, especially considering that these are people working with vulnerable children. So that was a dead end.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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However, we did find plenty of evidence of Sophie's time in Zambia, including a presentation some kids in her hometown made about her work there and a blog post about her from a college friend. These portraits of Sophie are glowing, framing her as a sort of Mother Teresa figure, like this blog post that Erin shares from a friend that includes a letter written by Sophie.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And as I've said before, I strongly believe that this is no coincidence. But for Sophie, there was no pregnancy. According to sources we've spoken to on background, there was never even a serious partner in the mix. This is a notable piece in this case. So Sophie's less conventional path to motherhood is interesting, and it's one that she positions as ordained by God.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah, it's just it's so it's so scant on details. I have almost no idea after reading this what her day to day life was like, what the day to day lives of any of the people she interacted with were like. And it's just it's so extraordinary to have someone in such a. like fish out of water context and just not get any of those details.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And to your point about what's unsettling about some of this, I think for me it was the juxtaposition of the vivid details about Zambia the children in states of various duress, the kids with wounds or the orphans that she describes as being very maltreated by the people who are working there, juxtaposed with the utter lack of detail about anything else having to do with the people in particular.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Many women dream of becoming mothers, but Sophie, again in her own words, had a very specific vision of motherhood in mind.
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It was. And she just, you know, even further than not mentioning that they visited, she certainly gives the impression. And the only time she really talks much about her family back home is in the beginning parts of the book, to my memory. She describes it as something like that her family had a lot of resistance to.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And like, to be frank, if that were the case, like that's something that was pretty understandable to me. Like if my 20-year-old daughter was like, I'm
Nobody Should Believe Me
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drop out of college and move to this country that i know nothing about um i i would also have questions and concerns but she certainly sets it up as that she like did not have support now practically we know she must have because how otherwise is she affording to live because importantly we don't have any reason to believe that she had any paid employment during this time right
Nobody Should Believe Me
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The reason we went on such a massive deep dive about this piece of Sophie's story was because this period of time sets the stage for everything to come. When looking at the patterns in these cases, we normally start with the pregnancy. And since Sophie wasn't present for that in this case, this period of time is really crucial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And while we were able to get a much better picture of Sophie's work in Zambia, we're still left with so many questions. Most of all, how did this young woman come home with two vulnerable girls in her care?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Sophie's description of her journey to adopt her daughters is of a harrowing and lonely fight, where she battles a corrupt system all by herself in order to snatch these children from the clutches of their desolate fate in filthy orphanages. On top of this, I found the overall way that Sophie describes the Zambian people in her book to be pretty troubling.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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One of the things that most disturbed me was Sophie's account of the way that Zambian children were being treated in the hospitals and orphanages. She describes the Zambian workers as being careless and harsh with them. It was frankly tough to get any information about what happened on the ground with these various organizations. But we were able to find the orphanage that Sophie worked with.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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This is also potentially where she adopted Z and M from.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah, for sure. I think when we did find pictures of the organization, again, with the caveat that like, we don't know exactly when these photos are from, and it could have looked different during the time that she was there and with all that. But I mean, I think, you know, you know, yeah, it looks sort of clean and safe and newer and it's not the image that- They're keeping up facilities, yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Right, it's not this sort of just, I mean, Every description that Sophia includes in this book, really, of Zambia just presents the most sort of crushing scene of poverty. And, you know, she might have seen some of that. That exists everywhere. I mean, I live in Seattle. I could go find that this afternoon if that's what I was, you know, if that's what I was sort of the work that I was doing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Media stories about Munchausen by proxy often only scratch the surface of the complicated tangle of deceptions and manipulations that underpin them. And the media coverage of the Hartman case is no exception. These stories tend to get fixated on details like the number of times the kid was taken to the doctor or the gruesome surgeries that they endured, possibly under false pretenses.
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So it's not to say that that's not accurate at all, but like it is notable. And I think also just like I think there's something that really struck me about Zambia. The sort of her being alone and being a singular figure.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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One of the interesting things about having a memoir from a person like this is that there's only so much you can hide when you're writing a memoir, right, about the way that you see the world. Like, it will come through whether you want it to or not when you are writing about your own life.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Because, like, listen, and I think memoir is an interesting genre because, you know, sometimes people will say, like, I remember when the James Fry scandal happened with Oprah, like, why don't people fact-check memoirs? And, like, on some level, it's kind of a good question. On the other level, because it's impossible. Someone's telling you a story of their own life.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like, nobody tells a perfect version of the story of their own life, right? So there is, like, that caveat. But I do think... what I read as being a very narcissistic worldview comes through in this book, right? Sophie makes quite a hullabaloo about the resistance that she encounters when she decides to go to Zambia, but she clearly received quite a lot of support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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It's also during this time that she seemed to hone her talents for fundraising.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
In Sophie's memoir, she talks a lot about the challenges she encountered trying to adopt her daughters, C and M. In particular, she talks about the social worker who attempted to stop the adoptions and her ultimate victory in adopting the girls. But once again, you'd think she was all on her own in this fight.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Now, in reality, many of the fundraisers that we found from this time relate to the adoptions of C&M. Sophie links to the fundraising pages on her own blog, her friend posts an appeal to her followers, and Sophie's sister Sam even ran a half marathon to help raise funds. And throughout this, there's a depiction of Sophie as being up against the, quote, corrupt adoption system of Zambia.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, you can check out my book, The Mother Next Door, You should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
According to Sophie's memoir, C was surrendered by her grandmother, so we don't know what the intentions of the birth parents were at that time, and we are unable to confirm any of the details of how C and M came to the crisis nursery.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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From what we've been able to confirm, it seems M was being fostered by Sophie for a period of time while Sophie was battling the courts in Zambia to officially adopt her. During this back and forth, M's younger sister C was born and brought to a crisis orphanage, And based on these confirmed details, Mariah has a pretty educated guess on what happened next.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I think that's a really solid theory. And I think, too, you know, something that really tracks throughout the rest of this story and indeed that is a very strong parallel with other stories that we cover on this show is that We underestimate what a completely relentless person can accomplish, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Like, if you are so singularly focused on something, the way she even self-described, you know, was on making these adoptions go through.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Now look, maybe it just seems like we are nosy weirdos who have too much time on our hands to pick apart someone's self-published memoir. But the dissonance between Sophie's account of her time in Zambia and these other artifacts we unearthed is at the root of Sophie's picture of herself as a mother.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Sophie's entire world appears to be built on omissions and half-truths constructed to make her an unimpeachable savior. And reading her work gave me a too familiar disorienting feeling. A feeling of never quite having my feet on the ground. Because the medical deception in these cases may pose the biggest threat, but it never occurs in a vacuum.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And the ability to build a narrative where you are the lone savior with anyone who questions you as the enemy is something Sophie appears to have been honing during this formative time, setting the stage for everything that was yet to come. Next time, we dig into what life was like for C&M once they were in Seattle.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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You get all episodes early and ad free along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right. You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and producing by Aaron Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and Engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche. Book passages were performed by Ilana Michelle Rubin.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep02: Spiritual Warfare
In the last episode, we traced Sophie's account of how she came to adopt her daughters, C and M, from Zambia. After reading her book, I had a lot of questions. One place I really needed some help understanding and contextualizing was Sophie's deeply religious perspective and framing of both her time in Zambia and her place in the world. Now, I'm not religious, and I wasn't raised in the church.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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There were a few sporadic attempts by my granny to try and get me and my sister Megan into Sunday school, and my family went to church on Christmas Eve and Easter as a kid. I consider myself a sort of culturally Christian agnostic. I do find religion pretty fascinating, and I also find that many religious folks are extremely thoughtful in their views on God and the world.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Frankly, I'm even often a little jealous of people of faith. It seems nice to have such an organized worldview and to operate from the idea that there's a deeper meaning for everything, that we're not just all in this whirlwind of earthly chaos. I also really get the appeal of going to church.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Just going somewhere to be with other people in your community, talk about life every week, listen to music. Seems nice. And with all that said, you can't have listened to as many cult podcasts as I have without understanding exactly how all of these wonderful things about religion can be exploited and weaponized. And the connection between cults and this abuse is not a casual one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Perpetrators of MBP are typified by the coercive control that they hold over both their children and often their family and their community. All the more reason I wanted to understand specifically how Sophie's evangelical background and outlook came to bear in this story, especially because it's so inextricable with her journey to becoming a mother. So we brought in an expert.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And in doing so, they really miss the central question. Why did this happen? You either have to determine why a mother would ever do the unthinkable things she's being accused of, or if she didn't do those things, why doctors and others would conspire against her to say that she did. When attempting to unravel a story like Sophie Hartman's, it can be hard to know just how far back to go.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Dr. Turek's first book, To Bring the Good News to All Nations, Evangelical Influence of Human Rights and U.S. Foreign Relations, examines the growth and influence of Christian foreign policy lobbying groups in the United States. Dr. Turek focuses on how the evangelical movement that Sophie is so deeply tied to became what it is today.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So I was hoping we could start off with just a working definition of what is evangelical Christianity.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Now, obviously, there are numerous, very different denominations within the Christian faith. In my small town alone, we've got Lutherans, Methodists, Unitarians, Baptists, you name it. So I wanted to know which of these fit within the definition of evangelicals. The answer is not black and white.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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We will get into each church as we go through this case, but we wanted to start at the beginning with the church that Sophie grew up in.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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I remember this feeling in the years after I became estranged from my sister, Megan, following the first investigation into her for medical child abuse almost 14 years ago now. It was impossible to know where to begin, because it wasn't just that Megan lied about her son's medical issues or that she lied about her own.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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This audio is from a telecast of a Sunday service that was posted to Haven's Facebook page. The vibe of this church, at least from what I can see online, looks welcoming. Lots of posts about prayer meetings, ice cream socials, and food pantries. Much of it with kind of a 2010s Instagram vibe. Interestingly, there are also several posts about upcoming missions to African nations.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Now, we don't see the congregation in any of these videos, but folks I've spoken to from Sophie's hometown said that this is a very white church in a very white town. The video Sophie appears in is from just this past summer. She walks up to join the pastor at the modest podium on the stage and looks right at home as she speaks to the congregation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Both Sophie and the pastor are casually dressed. She in a t-shirt and linen pants, and the pastor in jeans and sneakers. From what we can see of the church, it looks wholesome and neighborhood-y.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Listening to this, I'm struck by how faith intersects with this particular case. Again, it speaks to the why of it all. And I wanted to know a bit more about how the church fit in Sophie's worldview. So we asked Dr. Turek.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Sophie's home church ended up splitting off to be part of the Alliance of Reformed Churches in 2021. This followed division within the denomination over whether to perform same-sex marriages after the Oberfeld decision in 2015 that made equal marriage the law of the land. And Haven moved to the more conservative end of the spectrum.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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The more those of us who loved her started to pull on the threads, the more the entire fabric of who I thought I knew just came completely undone. Megan lied about finances, about work, and just about all these little incidental things. It was really everything everywhere all at once. And what I've learned in the years that I've been covering these cases is that it's always like this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So while this church doesn't necessarily welcome women at the head of its leadership, Sophie appears to have established some real influence here, as seen in the sermon she gives, which we shared with Dr. Turek.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. So her chronicles of C's actual sort of health journey, those would have likely been admissible in court, you think? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, those are the most striking to me because, yeah, they do really show evidence of the planning.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And this sort of, you know, I think between that and the Internet search history that they found, you do really it really does paint this picture of someone making and executing a plan. And she expresses frustration with the doctors that don't want to go forward. And she talks about that. help the doctors be brave enough to see the truth about C's health beyond the facade of how cute she is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And it's very striking that she's pushing this narrative of her daughter being so much sicker than anyone else thinks she is. Then there's all of the stuff about death and that to me is just so striking given that we know she's writing this in the context of not having been told by a medical professional that her child is going to die and she's talking about
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We'll be doing some follow up on previous seasons, and I'll also be doing some fun crossover episodes with other podcasters I love. So stay tuned for all of that. As always, if you would like to support the show, You can subscribe on Patreon or Apple Podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
having these conversations with God, where God says, give C to me, and talking, recounting conversations that she's having with her daughter about her going to heaven, and etc.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And that, to me, I feel like even if you're sort of giving this the most generous read of whatever sort of explanation you could come up with about this is an anxious parent, this is a parent who really thinks she's doing the best for her child. I just don't see how you explain that away.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
It certainly seems to me, looking at this case, and this is one of, again, an extremely thorough investigation that Detective O'Rourke did. And kind of like no notes on that, right? I mean, really did, like, it seems like really she went above and beyond.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
You'll get ad-free listening as well as some great bonus content from this season and my twice monthly subscriber show, Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours with Dr. Bex. This month, Bex and I are going to be covering The Anatomy of Lies, which is the documentary about the Elizabeth Finch case. So you won't want to miss that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, and two questions about that, or one observation, one question. I am curious, because something that's come up in another case that we're working on is that there was eventually a family placement, but before that, for a period of time, they were placed with a medical foster parent.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Because one of the things, if you have a child that has a really severe medical condition, is that it is not safe to place them with someone who isn't a very experienced caretaker. So obviously, they would have given Sam and Sophie's mother, Anne, some guidance on what came up with the medical. But it was interesting reading between the lines of some of the
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
of these reports that were in the second investigative summary about them reporting medical issues with C. And it strikes me that, you know, we know from when C was discharged after the first you know, period of shorter period of separation from Sophie while she was in the hospital is that she was physically doing really well, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
That she was not if she had been extremely medically fragile, presumably they would not they either wouldn't have discharged her or they would have discharged her to a medical foster family. Is that right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
She did have visitation that was only supervised by some private company that they hired and then also her mom and sister. And even I was reading in the investigative summary that on one of these instances, she brought food with her. And that just made me want to bang my head against the wall.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And if you are a subscriber, you will get every episode of season six on the day that it launches. If monetary support is not an option, we have a free tier of Patreon where you can listen to some select episodes. And of course, rating and reviewing on Apple and leaving comments on Spotify, as well as telling others about the show, are great ways to help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, and I think to your point about putting the mom and the sister in a really difficult position, because I think we both understand why kinship placements are preferred in a lot of situations, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
You're absolutely traumatizing a kid, even if it needs to be done. It is traumatic for a kid to be taken away from their parents and that is a hugely stressful and difficult situation and very sad. And if you can have them with people that they know and love rather than people who are strangers, obviously that's preferable. But it creates so many issues in these cases.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And in particular, then it puts, you know, the people who are doing that supervision in an impossible situation because that's going to cause a lot of.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
uh conflict with the parent if they are not sort of being the maximally uh you know sort of deter deferring to that parent and you can see in this report how it read to me that sam and anne seemed very anxious about c's health you know there was like an instance of them calling an ambulance for what turned out to be a behavioral episode and
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
you know just this kind of like well we need a specific contact at the hospital and just making these kind of like somewhat outrageous seeming requests and i i sort of assumed that that was coming from from sophie um they may not be necessarily actively lying to the police but they are not seeing things clearly and in fact that was pointed out by dr makati when he said
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
If this child is placed with a maternal grandmother, if she's not able to clearly evaluate what's happening, that's going to be a huge problem.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Your support is how I keep making this show as an independent podcaster, and I am deeply grateful to all of you. Now, on with the show. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, it certainly sounded that way from her interview. And again, this is a really direct parallel, not surprisingly, since they had the same attorney, since my sister was working on this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
This is a direct parallel to the placement decision that happened in my niece's case where she was placed with my sister's in-laws who were making no secret of the fact that they did not find these accusations credible and told the police that they felt like it was a witch hunt.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And they admitted that they were letting my sister be there for 11 hours a day or something like that. And that's just not, you know, there's no way that that's safe. And we don't know what all was happening. in this case, but certainly Anne did not then, and none of her family members have ever given any indication that they think that this was anything other than a false accusation.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So I think that inability to protect the girls, even if their intentions were good, is really notable.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I do think that there is a possible role for prosecutors in these cases to be themselves better educated and able to educate judges when it comes to that. In this case, we have this interesting chain of events where Sophie is charged.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Got it. So does that not always happen?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Interesting. So that is kind of all systems go. If the D.A. says so, like you, you take this step, you get this warrant. We're going to do something about it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
so they absolutely had the criminal laws available to them to hold her accountable they just chose not to you know something i was speaking to a former prosecutor from this area and we were talking about why these all the sort of complicated constellation of reasons that these cases are so challenging and one of the things that he brought up uh brought up was cost
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So, you know, these are expensive cases at court. I think there is this completely divorced from reality assumption that the state has endless funds with which to pursue justice. child abuse charges. And that is not the case. I understand where these are costly to try and that makes sense.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And I think a certain amount of, you know, realism and living in the world that we wish that, you know, that didn't come into play. And of course it does. But I think that there's sort of a piece we're not looking at of what is the cost, like what is the actual financial cost of letting them go? Because number one, they turn around and wage these lawsuits.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And it has really struck me covering so many of these cases over the years what an absolute resource black hole these perpetrators are because they are taking up money and resources that are meant for legitimately sick children and they're taking up space you know there are there are we know how imperfect these systems are and there are parents who should, you know, get their children back.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And it's like, those things get shoved down on the docket. And it's they take up judges time, they take up, you know, I mean, they take up an unspeakable amount of resources. And so letting them carry on with that. And in fact, I think in many instances, adding fuel to the fire of Oh, now you can go on and say you were falsely accused of abuse and become the victim there. And
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
you have a new lawsuit and you have a whole new project, it really unleashes this absolute sort of vector of resources that is kind of unmatched. And I think you see it in this case with Sophie and the fundraising, and you see some element of this in all cases. And I think there's just an element where these people are really grifters at the end of the day.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. And I've thought a lot about in this case in particular. So you have, you know, which is a pretty common pattern that, you know, you have a child that has one in a million rare neurological disorder and they're seeking treatment from. And so basically, you know, by saying, and it's, it's a false statement,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
it's a false setup of does the child have the disease or not that will determine whether abuse is happening, right? Because the child could have, she could have AHC, does not negate the possibility of abuse. After reading Dr. Wainwright from Children's that she does not have AHC, I feel pretty comfortable saying that in all likelihood she does not have AHC.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
But having gone through this case and having it dismissed, that appears to have reinforced Sophie's narrative. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, And I worry about them being susceptible because of some of these other factors. I mean, is that a concern that you share?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. Well, Mike, any other kind of final thoughts on this case and what we can learn from it?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We got PhDs for dates, guys. Right, right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
All right. Well, Mike, we're going to talk to you again about a bunch of other things coming up on the show. And thank you so much for being with us. And congratulations on your new life as a published author.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So I wanted to tell you I have been sharing all of these nice messages with Chalice and she said that you are such a lovely group of people and I could not agree more. She also wanted me to tell you that she is so grateful for how this episode landed, and peace and blessings to you all.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
You got it. All right. Thanks, Mike. Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. Hey, Mike.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I'm hanging in there. How are you doing?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Is your time away from work is permanently time away from work. Is it not? Now you are officially retired.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, you'd probably be kind of a menace if you weren't working. I don't know where all that Mike Weber energy goes. You're not working.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah. So, Mike, we will have you back on to do your Mike Weber tells all or tells some post-retirement special. But today you're going to talk to us about the Sophie Hartman case, which we just covered in season five of the podcast. And, yeah, you have reviewed a whole bunch of documentation in this case. You've listened to the season.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. First of all, thank you so much for all of the incredible feedback on season five. I've gotten so many comments and emails about the season and especially about my interview with Chalice Howard that aired last week as our unexpected episode nine.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We spoke to another one of our APSAC colleagues, also a Detective Mike, Detective Michael Lee, about this case as well. But, yeah, we're excited to have you on to just kind of do a little bit of a debrief on this case and get your thoughts on it, because this was one of the more extensive and thorough police investigations I've really ever seen on one of these cases.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And yeah, we're just curious to know your thoughts on this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Well, actually, though, Mike, I do have an answer to that. Oh, okay. Good. Yeah. So they, I believe, because I was in communications in the public record department, there is, I think, so much evidence from the social media that that has just not yet been confirmed. They have not yet had the ability to redact that and produce it. So I think that exists somewhere. I think she did get that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Today we've got a bonus episode with friend of the show, and of course my co-author on my new book, The Mother Next Door, Detective Mike Weber, breaking down some elements of the Sophie Hartman case that we didn't get to in our episode with the other Detective Mike, Michael Lee, because some of that documentation came in later in the game. And that is Adventures in Foyer Request for you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I just think that's not available yet. This record request is still open. And there was also quite a lot of video evidence, which I think is... I would imagine extremely time intensive to redact.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Yeah, and so you're talking about her older daughter Em's gymnastics coach was interviewed by the police, and we did not really get into this during the show. And that gymnastics coach had a number of interesting observations.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
One of the interesting observations in there was that for some periods of time, I think this was during COVID while this was happening, during whatever phase of COVID where we were sort of
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
You could get you could you'd be somewhat in person, but it was still somewhat limited that she would that Sophie would sometimes leave both of her daughters at the gym for periods of time and that both this coach and some of the parents at the gym had noticed there was a huge discrepancy in her younger daughter sees actual physical abilities versus what Sophie was saying they were.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
That is striking, and it's really sad because I think that really gets to, you know, as we talk about, obviously, the criminal investigations are very focused on usually acts of physical harm, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
But then that really speaks to the psychological damage that this abuse does of telling someone that they can't do something, that they'll never be able to do it, and sort of having this doom and gloom picture of that person's future.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
A reminder that we've got our Season 5 Mailbag episode coming up, so get your comments and questions in now. You can email us or send us a voice memo at hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Again, that's hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Or if you're listening on Spotify, you can leave a question in the comments and we will grab it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And back to this question about the journalist, because I was really interested to talk to you about this. And actually, when we had Detective Michael Leon, we had not yet received this part of the public records request. So regretfully, we did not get to talk to him about this piece of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
But these journal entries, I mean, for me, I'd never seen anything like this in case files where we had so much that was in a presumably unguarded kind of moment of a really direct line into the thoughts of a perpetrator. You know, we often have plenty in their narrative, right? But it's like a public narrative. So you sort of assume that
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
anything that's on their social media or that they're doing in the actual media, which we have plenty of that, Sophie, too, right? She's on the local news, she's on social media a lot. But you sort of assume that that's like a performance, right? And then this to have this sort of interior view was very different.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
And I wonder, like, yeah, what did you think of this collection of Sophie's musings and what stuck out to you about those?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Interesting, yeah. I was gonna ask you actually if you thought, like how you thought these would have played at trial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We are hard at work right now on our Season 6, which is set to air later this spring. And I know I always say this, but we have really never done anything like this one on Nobody Should Believe Me. So all I can say is buckle up. In the meantime, we've got a whole new batch of Case Files episodes for you. We are going to be covering a couple of cases that are in the headlines right now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Breakdown with Detective Mike Weber
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
And this is Sophie's mother, Anne, in her conversation with a Renton detective.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
As a reminder, Sophie's parents live all the way in Michigan, so they weren't there on the day-to-day. In fact, they saw the girls pretty rarely. How often do you see the girls?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
These descriptions struck me because there was only one report from a physician of witnessing any symptoms at all in C. During one visit with Seattle Children's, a physician named Dr. Bray reported C having some behavioral issues, something like Art describes in his interview. Now, behavioral issues can be part of HC, especially because the disorder can cause severe developmental delays.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
People believe their eyes. That's something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
But behavioral issues alone are not indicative of a child having a rare neurological condition. Dr. Bray also noted that the longer the quote, episode went on, he had the sense that the child was more aware and more purposeful in her actions. And according to Sophie, C wasn't just impacted by this disorder, she was going to die from it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Sophie frequently told people that C wasn't likely to live past childhood, but many of the patients in long-term AHC studies are in their 50s. Sophie nonetheless seemed preoccupied with C's death. She would frequently tell people that she wasn't sure how long they had with her. And she makes many references to C being a, quote, ticking time bomb.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
This seems a clear reflection of the language from the film that I mentioned, which I know Sophie had seen as well because she posted about it on social media, and which her sister mentions in her police interview.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Having watched this film, the context the parents use this term in is to reference the unpredictability of their children's episodes and the disruptive nature of it to daily life, i.e. that they could have a painful episode anytime, not that they could, as Sophie says, leave us at any time. So this all begs the question, how life-threatening is this diagnosis? So I'm interested in sort of...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Especially in terms of like children. I mean, is this a fatal or terminal illness? I mean, is this a terminal diagnosis? Would that language be used?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
And this wasn't just talk. Sophie began requesting palliative care for C as early as 2018, but Seattle Children's told the police she was never a candidate for this type of care, which focuses on alleviating pain and discomfort rather than treating an illness or disorder.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
In spring of 2019, about a year after C's AHC diagnosis, Sophie began requesting more extreme interventions in C's eating, including getting a central line placed and pursuing TPN, which gives children nutrition intravenously. We were talking about some of those gastrointestinal complications, and I realize there's a huge range here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
But have you seen a situation where a child with AHC was put on TPN?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Dr. Zupontz likewise said she'd never heard of a child with AHC going into palliative care. Now, palliative care is not only used for end-of-life care, but especially in children, when palliative care is brought in, it's because death is a distinct possibility. As Dr. Becks, pediatric hospitalist and frequent contributor to this show, explains here.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
The police also asked Dr. McCotty from Duke about Sophie's request for palliative care, and he was surprised by this and stated that, quote, most of his AHC patients would not be candidates for palliative care and would not apply for such a program. Dr. McCotty also told the police that referring to AHC as a terminal illness was very inappropriate.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
He likened it to epilepsy, where there's certainly an increased risk of death, but many people live to an old age. He said probably less than 10% of AHC patients die in childhood, and these deaths were due to complications from an episode.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
So to recap, Sophie insists that C has AHC, despite her not having the genetic marker for it and the fact that no one else has ever witnessed something that could correctly be identified as an AHC episode. She also claims that C is terminal and appears fixated on the child's impending death. She is moving her toward last resort interventions such as TPN and palliative care.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
And by the time she's six years old, C has undergone two surgeries for gastrointestinal issues that Sophie claims are severe enough to warrant them. And in 2020, Sophie begins pushing for a third surgery for a hormonal implant. So was any of this medically necessary?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
The doctors from Seattle Children's Child Abuse Team had this to say, quote, The following is a list of problems, symptoms, behaviors and diagnoses for which there is no documented objective evidence. Excessive vomiting or dehydration, chronic diarrhea,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
hematomesis, which is vomiting blood, seizures, prolonged paralysis, 32 days straight, prolonged apnea, not breathing, low blood oxygenation, prolonged lack of urine output, speech or language pathology, recurrent ankle sprains, need for any orthotics, wheelchairs, gait trainers or leg braces, and terminal illness.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Following the separation from Sophie in March of 2021, C was observed by hospital staff for more than two weeks. As far as we could tell, this was the longest she'd ever been away from her mother since the adoption. This separation test is crucial in MBP investigations. If the reported symptoms persist, then you know right away that the mother isn't the cause. And if they don't?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Another question, you know, I had sort of asked you, and again, I recognize that I'm asking you to speculate, so only to the degree that you feel comfortable. There was actually a prolonged hospital stay after the separation. It was 16 days, I believe.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
With an AHC patient, and given that the reports were that the episodes were extremely frequent, would it be pretty unusual during that time where a child's being very closely observed that no one would record any signs or symptoms?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Right, and just actually a question with the EEG monitoring, because they sent them for an at-home, and so you were talking about kind of like they look different than the epileptic seizures, but an EEG monitor, so if a child is hooked up to a monitor and a parent reports that they're having an episode during that time, would it, like how likely is it that it wouldn't catch anything at all?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
It's certainly true that for AHC and seizure disorders like epilepsy, it can be very hard to capture seizure activity during a doctor's appointment because episodes are unpredictable. And this is why doctors rely so much on parent reports. One of the challenges of MBP investigations is that it can be very difficult to disprove a clinical diagnosis.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
As Detective Mike Weber always says about these investigations, you never ask doctors if something is possible, because with medicine, almost anything is possible. It's a constantly evolving science.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
So though these investigations are lengthy and work-intensive, at some point, the picture becomes pretty clear, as Dr. Zupontz recalls from the 10 or so Munchausen cases that she's come across in her career.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
By May of 2021, after Sophie had been charged and bailed out by her parents, her daughter C, who is now in the custody of her grandmother and aunt, along with her sister M, was seeing dramatic improvements in her health and abilities, and she was back in school several days a week. Meanwhile, Detective O'Rourke was still putting together the immense medical puzzle that had been laid on her desk.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
The notes and internal meetings about C at Seattle Children's date all the way back to 2019, with the police investigation starting in 2021. Even before making a report to the Department of Children and Families, hospitals do their own work of due diligence.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
These cases are often portrayed by perpetrators and the media who give them megaphones as a hospital rushing to judgment, making it all about a parent whose child has a condition that the hospital just doesn't understand. But in reality, especially in a large hospital such as Seattle Children's, the doctors often have extensive documentation before they report medical child abuse.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
This abuse is very different than a child coming to a hospital with a suspicious broken bone because it is a pattern. There may be a single alarming incident that's captured on video, as with my sister's case, but the devil is always in the details.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
We spoke to Dr. Jill Glick from the University of Chicago to give us some insight into evaluating this abuse so that we could see what things might have looked like behind the scenes at Seattle Children's when they started tracking this case in 2019.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Just a note that the University of Chicago Medical System uses the abbreviation CAPS, or Child Advocacy and Protective Services, and you'll hear Dr. Glick reference this acronym. Talk us through the process for a hospital of investigating a medical child abuse case and then maybe kind of how that is different from some of these other injuries.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep06: Human Timebomb
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Nobody Should Believe Me
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reporting that a swallow study came back with severe findings when they were mild, saying that the doctors at Seattle Children's had, quote, given her the impression that she needed a G-tube when they'd clearly told her otherwise, and reporting a diagnosis of cerebral palsy and significant brain damage, despite the MRI coming back with only a mild finding.
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Then there was the saga that started in July of 2020 when Sophie brought C to a doctor saying that she was concerned that her six-year-old might be experiencing early puberty. Here is Sophie explaining this piece to Detective O'Rourke.
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If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. That's right.
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It was just a million small things about her baby's development and especially his eating issues. After being diagnosed failure to thrive, he'd had a nasal gastric tube inserted to help with his feeding. And this tube is in most of the pictures I have of him. And then Megan started talking about him needing a G-tube, which would require a surgery.
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When C arrived at the doctor, she was in a wheelchair, despite Sophie having been told by physicians that this was both unnecessary and harmful. In this appointment, Sophie also described C as a, quote, very handicapped child. Upon examination, there were some modest clinical findings, the endocrinologist told police, but these were discordant with further lab testing.
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While doctors were in the process of trying to get to the bottom of this precocious puberty question, they requested an MRI, and Sophie told them something shocking. That C had gone into cardiac arrest while undergoing an MRI at Duke. The Seattle doctor was alarmed and told Sophie she needed to see the chart notes of that visit before proceeding with the scan.
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Sophie then changed her story, saying actually it had been a different child at Duke who this had happened to. When asked about this, Dr. McCotty from Duke told the police he was surprised that Sophie had said this, as this was not a published case and that this patient fortunately completely recovered.
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This incident had happened two years earlier at Duke, and they'd added some additional precautions to their protocols around MRIs because of it. Sophie continued to pursue a surgical hormone implant for C against the doctor's advice and told numerous people that C was in, quote, full-blown puberty and that the likely cause was a brain tumor.
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This is not behavior that can be explained away as anxiety or a parent advocating for their child in a complicated healthcare system. There are legitimate challenges with getting the correct diagnosis for a rare condition like age C, but this odyssey does not include lying to doctors.
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Dr. McCotty declined our request for an interview, but we do have extensive notes from his conversations with the police detectives.
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He told Detective O'Rourke that he'd only seen C three times and was not in the position of treating the child who lived on the other side of the country, but that his role was to advise the doctors at Seattle Children's who were treating her, and that he would defer to them on making the differential between AHC and Munchausen.
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Seattle Children's and Duke had been in contact during treatment, and in fact, McCotty knew C's neurosurgeon, Dr. Wainwright, pretty well. Dr. Wainwright had trained at Duke, and McCotty said that he'd once hoped they'd get a chance to work together. McCotty described him as an excellent neurologist.
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Dr. Makati confirmed that he'd never himself witnessed an episode and that the only way to definitively say whether an episode is AHC or not is to have providers witness and evaluate it. This is why they sometimes attempt to trigger an episode when a child is in the hospital, which Sophie describes in her police interview as though it's cruel.
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Also worth noting that Sophie reported episodes as long as 32 days, but she never brought C to the hospital during one of these alleged episodes. Most of the people the police spoke to reported never seeing anything like an episode of AHC, and those who did, such as Sophie's parents, didn't really describe anything consistent with what an AHC episode actually looks like.
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But people did report seeing something. either behavioral issues, such as what Art described, or just C seeming very subdued and very out of it. As one of C's hippotherapy, as a reminder, that's with horses, not hippos, providers told the police.
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You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts.
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And there was one church friend who witnessed some of C's gastrointestinal issues.
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Sophie also took frequent videos of C when she was quote in episode and shared them with doctors, teachers, as well as posting them on YouTube in order to, by her explanation, raise awareness about age C. Here's how one of C's speech pathologists describes watching those videos.
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Dr. McCotty confirmed that he couldn't conclude anything from the videos that Sophie had shared with the team. And Dr. Wester, who heads up Seattle's scan team, reports that the videos recorded random behaviors and crying that were not demonstrative of anything. By all appearances, Seattle Children's and Duke were very much on the same page.
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But Sophie often told Seattle Children's that a particular recommendation was coming from Duke. such as in an email Sophie drafted to Dr. Wainwright in March of 2020, telling him that Dr. McCotty said they needed to put C on a higher dose of baclofen, which was one of the medications being used to treat her purported episodes.
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As far as the precocious puberty question and the findings that didn't quite match up, the charging documents provide one possible explanation, that C was being given birth control pills, which contain estrogen and which would account for the clinical findings in the initial appointments that did not match up with the lab workup.
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Presenting side effects of a medication as symptoms is a common thread in these cases, so it makes sense that doctors and the police dug into this. And then there was this disquieting detail from the police interview with Sophie's next-door neighbor in which she describes picking up some prescriptions for C&M.
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For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as bonus video content. When we last left off, we were talking to Dr. Zupontz about age C, to better understand this rare condition that C had been diagnosed with. If this diagnosis was legitimate, could it explain all of these other symptoms that Sophie had described?
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Just to clarify this, because the names are bleeped out, this neighbor picked up a G-tube medication that was labeled for M, who does not have a G-tube. The neighbor was so alarmed that she took photos of the prescription bottles.
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When she was separated from Sophie and admitted to the hospital for observation in March of 2021, C was on a number of medications for her supposed symptoms. This list, along with a list of medications found in the home when police searched it, could give us some insight into the, quote, symptoms other people saw.
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I also asked Dr. Becks about the prescription for baclofen.
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Specifically, the severe and ongoing gastrointestinal issues that had required C to undergo two invasive surgeries. Is that another thing that might sort of get worse over time as they're having more episodes and they might have like kind of ongoing problems with gastrointestinal stuff?
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The most common symptom people reported seeing, if any at all, was C being really out of it. So the fact that there were multiple highly sedating medications in the house is notable. Becks also mentioned that the side effects of one of these medications is difficulty swallowing, which Sophie constantly reported in C despite a series of swallow tests that showed either mild or no difficulty.
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Sophie's explanation for this was that C could simply perform being able to swallow in a hospital setting. Even the manner in which these medications were used sounded off to Bex, such as what C herself told the police about how her mom treated her during an episode. During the police investigation, forensic interviewers spoke to C about her episodes, and what she told them is shocking.
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I am obviously not qualified to say whether or not C has AHC. The person who is best positioned to make this call is Dr. Wainwright, the neurologist from Seattle Children's who Dr. McCotty himself said he would defer to on the question of whether this was an AHC case or a Munchausen case. This is from Dr. Wainwright's sworn affidavit. Quote, C. Hartman is a patient of mine since October 2019.
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At that time, she had been diagnosed with alternating hemiplegia of childhood. C had genetic testing which had not identified a variant in the gene associated with this disorder, and the diagnosis was therefore made on clinical grounds, including the reports of symptoms made by her mother.
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True Story Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse, and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. Throughout the first year of my nephew's life, things fell increasingly off with my sister.
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Over the course of her treatment, she had hospital admissions, inpatient and outpatient EEG studies, and brain MRIs. These studies were normal or showed only mild abnormalities. These findings were not consistent with the severity of the clinical symptoms reported by her mother.
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In addition, her neurologic examination and symptoms during hospitalizations in 2019, 2020, and 2021 did not reveal these symptoms. I have concluded that C does not have AHC, nor does she have the severe and recurrent neurological symptoms reported to the medical teams. Instead, she has a mild static encephalopathy, which does not require the medications she was previously treated with.
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nor does she require the other medical devices including wheelchair, orthotics, and feeding tube. Given my role as the creator of a podcast about Munchausen by proxy, I think sometimes people assume that I go into a given case looking only for evidence of abuse. But what I actually go in looking for is the truth.
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And in that search, I look for any other possible explanation that could make any kind of sense. And after months of researching this case, I simply cannot find one. If C really has AHC, it would be in defiance of all known science on the disorder and truly of reality itself.
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It would appear that the truth was what Seattle Children's observed at the end of C's 16-day hospitalization following her separation from Sophie, that she was a completely normal six-year-old girl. On March 18, 2021, the day after C and M were placed in protective custody, Detective O'Rourke got a call from an attorney named Adam Shapiro, who was representing Sophie Hartman.
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He said he was just digging into this case, but that he'd seen a number of these medical cases. In fact, he'd had one the year before, and it had even involved some of these same doctors. It had all turned out to be garbage, he said. In that case, Shapiro, an experienced family-independency attorney, had gotten the children returned to the mom and no criminal charges had ever been filed.
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This case had also been covered on the local news.
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Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact-checking by Erin Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
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If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
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But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. so soon. I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
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Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
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And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
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I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
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So if it was, as Sophie reported, that C was having such severe gastrointestinal symptoms that she required a G-tube and a succostomy tube, this would put her in the slim minority, 10%, of an already extremely rare disorder. And she's already in the minority of AHC patients being one of the 20% that doesn't have the gene mutation.
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Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
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These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And then there were the details that Sophie reported about her episodes. Something caught my eye in the literature that it was saying there can be this huge difference in duration of time for an episode. So you said a few minutes to 14 days. And again, I won't ask you overly much to sort of speculate on what's about this case in particular.
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But there was a parent report of paralysis lasting 32 days. Have you ever heard of something that long?
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It was around this time that my mother went to the gastroenterologist with Megan and heard him say that he didn't think my nephew needed it yet. And this was all happening against the backdrop of a long history of her deceptions. My sister's own questionable surgeries, her faked twin pregnancy, and the dramatic loss of those babies that never were.
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Yeah. And I mean, it seems to me that if an episode was going on that long, that there would be a hospitalization during that period.
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There is a range of symptoms and severity with AHC, as with many things, but consistently, Sophie is reporting severe, frequent, and long-lasting episodes. And in such a case, an AHC patient would experience significant cognitive decline. And according to the teachers and care providers the police spoke to, C had occasional issues but was more or less developmentally on track with her peers.
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So the episodes Sophie is reporting are twice as long as any ever discovered in AHC research, meaning this would be one of the most severe cases of AHC ever documented. The reason pediatricians take parent reports so seriously is that they recognize that we usually know our kids best and are much more in touch with what's normal for them and what isn't.
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Was it plausible that Sophie was the only person attuned enough to her daughter to understand what was going on with her? With this disease in particular and sort of the presentation of it, is it plausible that given that there were other people around this child pretty frequently, that no one else would see this child have an episode?
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I remember going with her to an ultrasound when she was pregnant with my nephew and seeing the image of the baby with my own eyes and still feeling unsure if he was real. This makes me realize how much I already knew about the true her. How hard I was working to hide it from myself. But pushing him towards a surgery he didn't need crossed a line.
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No one disputes that a parent's perspective on their child is important, but Dr. Zupont's talks about getting other people who are around the child in the loop as well. And this piece is equally important in a medical child abuse investigation. Detective O'Rourke and her colleagues from Renton PD did one of the most thorough investigations I have ever seen in a medical child abuse case.
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They spoke to dozens of people, neighbors, friends, people from Em's gym, multiple schools that she attended, therapists, church members, people from the writing program, doctors, and family members. Sophie was nearly always with the girls, though reportedly Em would sometimes stay with friends while Sophie took C to doctor's appointments.
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And when the girls were a little bit older, she would sometimes leave them at the gym under the supervision of one of the coaches. Now, no one other than the doctors in this case who treated C are qualified to determine whether or not she truly has age C.
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But given that Sophie had proven to be an unreliable narrator of her daughter's health, it was important for the police to talk to as many people who'd had eyes on the girls as possible to see if Sophie's reports matched up with, well, reality.
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In my research, I watched a short documentary about children with AHC called Human Time Bombs in order to better understand the lives of families coping with this condition. They show some video footage of kids having AHC episodes, and it's very difficult to watch. You can see their whole bodies stiffen, their eye movements become erratic, and some of them are just howling in pain.
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My parents met with their family doctor and she gave them the words for the pattern we'd been seeing. Munchausen by proxy. I remember them sitting down to tell me that evening, and I thought, our family is over. She'll never forgive us because we knew we had to intervene. There never seemed, at least the three of us, to be another option. I only wish that every family saw it this way.
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It's heartbreaking, and as Dr. Zupont said, it's not subtle. The majority of people who were asked said they had never witnessed an episode firsthand. Those who did report witnessing something went on to describe something that does not actually sound like an AHC episode, such as these reports from Sophie's parents.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And, you know, I was talking to actually a psychologist colleague about this yesterday about why it seems like, you know, some of the offenders that we deal with are telling the truth when they're not, right? Where it just doesn't necessarily read like they're lying when they are lying.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And she talked about how, you know, people in this sort of area, and I think we can talk about sort of like the mental health aspects of this with Susan Smith, but that like, if you are, you know, have these types of personality disorders that cause people to do these things. that you're much, much more adept at compartmentalization, right?
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I sort of like, I think that was just what was in my mind watching her. I'm like, I think it's just such a trip to sort of watch someone making this appeal and making this big story up about, you know, a Black man carjacking her when she knows the truth.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah. And like the rationalization and justification of like, oh, I'll find a way to like, you know, make good on all this. And I'm not actually screwing over these people. And I'm just, you know, whatever, whatever it is, he was sort of telling himself about what he was doing. Right. Yeah. So Susan Smith ends up submitting a handwritten confession that she had killed these two boys and
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
This story changes as she goes. So initially, she said that this was an attempted murder-suicide where she had meant to go into the car and drive into the lake with the two boys because she was suicidal, because she had been having an affair with Her boss's son at the, I believe, factory where she worked and that he had broken up with her.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And so her justification for this was that she wanted to kill herself and she didn't want her boys to grow up without a mom. So she decided to take them with her. And this was debunked once they found the car and did the sort of forensics on how long it would have taken.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And this is a really heartbreaking detail that she had put the car in neutral and it had rolled down the hill with a boy strapped into their car seats in the back. And that would have taken like a full, because it was not like speeding into the lake, that it would have taken a full six minutes for the car to sink in.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And so I think that is that definitely paints a picture of someone who is not, you know, who did not make any attempt to save the children or did not probably jump out of the car at the last minute. And also, I think a detail that really struck me was that she had photo albums and her wedding dress in the car with them. So it was really interesting.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
seemed like this sort of symbolic sending her old life into the lake move. And then it was revealed that the reason that her lover that she was having an affair with had broken things off was because he didn't want children. And, yeah, I mean, like, how did these details of what actually happened in this case kind of land on you?
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Well, hello, Celicia. Thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited to talk about this case with you today. To start off with, can you tell us about your show, Truer Crime?
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, and I mean, it definitely strikes me as like, and not delusional in the sense that she's suffering from like actual delusions or psychosis, but sort of a, yeah, like disordered way of thinking, right? Where it's just like, oh, well, yeah, let me solve the problem by getting rid of my children and getting rid of my old life. And then this person will want me back. And I think, yeah,
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
One of the things I think that really worked against any defense about mental health or anything about it being not premeditated was that she had told family members that she had sort of fantasized about what if she hadn't had kids so young. And so I think there was some evidence that she had been sort of felt as though she was trapped in that situation.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So she's arrested and the car is pulled out of the lake. Again, just so... shattering for the father, shattering for the family members, and really for the whole community. Because I think especially when there was this massive manhunt and massive amount of resources dedicated to finding these boys.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So you can imagine that people really felt a sense of betrayal when they found out who had been responsible for it. And then there's this additional element of her blaming a fictional black perpetrator and that this had really caused some tension and some fear within the community of are they going to find someone that fits that sort of
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
general description and hold them accountable for it um and you know when there was like no such person even sort of on the scene um and yeah i mean that really like watching some of those interviews with the community members and and how that had affected them um yeah that that just really struck me and of course this goes back to some like very very age-old um
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
biases and very, very dark history of white women accusing Black men of crimes.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, absolutely. I just sort of think about how badly this case could have gone if they had acted on those tips. I mean, I don't think that's implausible. I mean, I think her story didn't make a lot of sense. But I know that the way that a lot of times law enforcement looks at especially white, but like young female offenders is,
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
They very easily, I think, could have sort of looked at her and been like, well, this lady would never kill her children. So let's keep looking for, you know, the fictional perpetrator and could have pinned it on someone.
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So stay fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lume. So she's arrested and, you know, this goes to trial. Susan Smith's main defense, you know, at this point, there's no question of who did what. Right. It's it's pretty clear cut. So her main defense is her mental health. And there becomes a lot of focus on her. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Thank you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So, yeah. So this was in February of 1995. So this is in the lead up to her trial. Susan Smith's defense attorneys hired a team of psychiatrists led by a guy called Seymour Halleck to conduct a psychiatric evaluation of her. So she was interviewed by him for 15 hours over the course of four sessions. This is according to WYFF News 4, who was the local station in Union that covered this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And the opinion given by that psychiatrist was that Susan Smith did not suffer from a deep depression and he diagnosed her as having a dependent personality disorder. The quote from him they include here is she constantly needs affection and becomes terrified she will be left alone. And he found that Susan Smith was only depressed when she was alone.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So it sounds like the prosecution also ordered a psychiatric evaluation, but it doesn't say anything about their results. But I think the fact that the defense did not find her to be suffering from major depressive disorder is telling, right, because they were sort of the team that was hired to – I'd imagine the goal there was to give some kind of –
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Justification for her actions, some kind of defense. I mean, that was really all they had to work with was her mental health. I don't know anything about a dependent personality disorder. It's also possible that it's called something different because this was, you know, 30 years ago. But but yeah, I mean, I think that really sort of does away with a mental health problem.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
reasoning that would lessen her culpability. Because it's worth saying, you know, and this is something we talk about on the show, that parents do harm their children sometimes because they are having a psychotic episode. or because they are suffering from delusions or in the midst of something like a postpartum psychosis. Those are things that happen.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I remember after having both of my kids, everywhere you go and every checkup, they ask you about your mental state and they really tell you to keep an eye on that. Now, with that said, right, Do we as a culture provide any institutional support for any of that? No. And I think that's a huge problem, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Because people can, under duress, under stress, under the influence, under substance abuse, because of extreme stress due to poverty, these are all reasons that people harm their children that can be mitigated, that can be prevented. I'm not totally sure what the preventative measure is. Could have been taken for someone like Susan Smith. And it's an interesting, like, open question.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Was she always going to do this? Was she always going to go on to commit an act of violence? Or was there something about this specific set of circumstances where there could have been some kind of intervention? But it's hard to know what that might have looked like.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, well, you know, your show is excellent. I love it. And I love the way that you cover cases. And, you know, I have a similar relationship to the genre, right? I got into it because of a personal experience and because I could not find the kind of content around that, the kind of information around that that I wanted and that would have been helpful to me when I was going through it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
The big question, I think, in this in this case was, was she going to be given the death penalty? So this is in July 26th of 1995. Susan is found guilty. And then they go on to, you know, so there's there's two phases of a trial like this. There's the guilt innocence phase. And then that same jury then weighs in on the sentencing. And so then she had the sentencing part of the trial done.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So she's convicted of murdering both of the boys. And I think the prosecution was hoping to get like a lesser like manslaughter charge, which feels totally inappropriate in this case to me. But she was convicted of murder. And under the South Carolina law at the time, she would be eligible for parole every two years after serving 30 years in prison.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
um how do we feel about this sentence and i i always have like i have quite complicated feelings about prison as a whole so i think it can be very hard for me to decide how how i feel about someone's prison sentence but yeah like how how do you think like what do you think about about this
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I love doing these crossover episodes with other shows. So let me know if there are other shows or creators that you think we should talk to. If you want to get in touch with us about that or anything else, give us a shout at hello at nobody should believe me dot com. Or you can leave us a comment on Spotify. We also appreciate ratings and reviews of the show on Apple Podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So yeah, so this story that we're gonna talk about today, we had gotten together and kind of brainstormed what is a good true or crime, nobody should believe me crossover. And I think this one really fits the bill because I think it has just the elements that both of our shows are kind of focused on. So I'm just going to do a quick recap of this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, I agree with you. And also because I think there's such a variety of reasons that people might end up committing even a heinous crime, right? Even a murder. Because, you know, it's very dependent on the circumstances. And so I think you do have to look at sort of the individual offender and how dangerous they might be. So...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
In 2024, so just last year, she came up for her first parole hearing. And, you know, basically she, you know, her argument was that she's done her time, that she is deeply remorseful for what she did and that she made a huge mistake and that she you know, never intended to harm her children and that she loved her children more than anything.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
You know, I have to say, like, when I think about what sort of accountability could look like in a case like this, right, of someone harming, you know, grievously harming or killing their children. The thing that rankles me the most is when people say how much they love their children and how much they never meant to hurt their children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And this really took me back watching her in this interview to when I interviewed Hope Ybarra, which was the perpetrator whose case we covered in the first season of the show. You know, she did 10 years in prison, fortunately, because of the interventions of the family members, the hospital, law enforcement, etc., Her child survived and is doing great, thriving.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
But she certainly put her child's life at risk and certainly could have killed her. And she, you know, in this interview with me was tearful and crying and saying how much she loved her children, saying how much... She never meant to hurt them and et cetera.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I really think it really – there's something about that emphasis on how much they love their children, which Susan Smith kind of takes a similar tack, that really rubs me the wrong way because – That leads me to believe that they don't get it, that they're not being accountable. Right. Because that's not love. That is completely the opposite.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
You know, we talk a lot about, yeah, like what accountability would look like. Right. Be like, I wasn't thinking of my children when I was doing this. I was acting selfishly and it was wrong. And I didn't I wasn't empathizing with my children. I wasn't feeling what I should have been feeling towards them. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
not sort of putting it under all these layers of like trying to appeal to people's idea of what a mother should be. Um, like that part of her was obviously not active. And so just sort of hear about her talk about how much she loved her children. I'm like, no, but she did not. You, you,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
committed this horrible, you know, murder, and then you lied about it, you put other people at the community at risk, you, you know, put the, you know, law enforcement in a situation where they were dedicating all of these resources that are then taking away from other people who need those resources. And so that is like a really a crime against the community as well.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So we're going to talk about the Susan Smith case. So this is a case from the mid 90s. A woman called it happens in Union County in South Carolina. So a woman named Susan Smith married to a man named David Smith. They got married quite young when Susan Smith was 19. She gave birth to her first son, Michael, and then two years later had her second son, Alex. And then on October 25th, 1994,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And she just clearly didn't, like, have a grasp on any of those things. And she sort of – it felt very much like she was saying what she thought she should say, just like sort of a script, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah. And I really think about, you know, and David Smith, her, you know, former husband, who's the father of those boys, did did a couple of interviews around this. And he's generally it's my understanding that he's generally been pretty reticent to talk to media. This is obviously not a sort of fame that he wanted. And so he did give some interviews around this time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
He did testify at her parole hearing and against her being paroled. And I just think about like, you know, with the accountability piece, right, because there's obviously nothing that she can do or say that will make this go away. The harm has been caused. The pain is real. That will last for about, you know, throughout all of the lives of the people who cared about these boys.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And it's just a huge tragedy. Right. But I do think and I wonder, like, if it's frustrating for me to hear her talk about how much she loved her kids, I can't imagine what that's like for their father to hear her say that. Because it's so it's so false and like that I do think for, you know, for people who are harmed by who are victimized by violence. Um, by abusers, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And who are, and I think he's a, you know, David is a victim of Susan. Um, like, just to even have them acknowledge the truth, like, can provide a great deal of relief to be able to kind of move forward. You know, not that you're going to necessarily... forgive them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Although I think that's kind of up to the person, you know, the person doing it, but like just to have her never take accountability and never just like acknowledge like, yeah, I did a selfish thing for selfish reasons. There's no excuse. Like, and I was not acting out of love.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I was, this was, you know, my boys deserved a mother that loved them and it wasn't me, you know, like just to really just say the thing. And I don't expect that he's probably ever going to get that. And So in November of 2024, she was unanimously denied parole, and her ex-husband, David Smith, testified, and there were 14 other witnesses that came forward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, and I think this is – you know, I think the parole thing, I think it's really good that that exists because, again, you can't assume that the system gets it right, right? And there are people that are – either serving time for crimes they didn't commit or serving too much time for crimes that, you know, they did commit.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I think there's a lot of reasons that that balance is in play and it should be there. But it's also kind of heartbreaking to think about the family having to like now relive this every two years for the rest of her life.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
her children disappeared. And Susan Smith reported that she had been carjacked at night by a black man wearing a toboggan hat with a gun. And she told this story that he had carjacked her and then forced her out of the car and driven off with her two children strapped into their car seats in the back of the car.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, yeah. And again, it's like, I don't really have a solution. Like, what sort of punishment does someone deserve, right? Like, what do they deserve to sort of pay for their crime? Is that even possible in a case like this? Is there any sort of restitution that can be made in a case like this? And then how do you keep society safe from someone who is capable of this kind of thing?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I was very struck. I do think in her defense, not me making her defense, her defense's strategy during her trial was to soften her, was to lean into this image of what we think a mother is. And, you know, she's very young at the time. She's in her early 20s. And they really appealed to the jury for sympathy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I was really struck by this statement about Susan Smith that, you know, that her defense team made in the closing arguments. Susan Smith has never shown anything but, quote, unconditional love for her children. Right. And her attorney, Clark, claimed it was not murder as there was no malice in Susan Smith's actions and added, this is not a case about evil, but a case about sadness and despair.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I've got a really fascinating Case Files episode for you today. This is a crossover with my friend, Silesia Stanton, creator of the excellent podcast, Truer Crime, which we will be sharing an episode of in the feed tomorrow. Today, Silesia and I are talking about the Susan Smith case, which touches on a bunch of themes that both of our shows cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Odd. Very odd thing to say. Yeah. And I just thought that is such an extraordinary framing to put on this case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Right. Yeah. I mean, I that that seems bananas that you would say there was no malice in her actions. And I think what they were leaning into was like that we could sort of see it as, oh, she was having a break with reality of some kind. But of course, there's no evidence of that. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And so, you know, there's another statement from her attorney that struck me where, you know, yeah, he said her situation was about the dangers of untreated mental health and noted that because she had no criminal history before her conviction, that made her a low risk to the public. And I was like, well, you know, it's not like this was her first offense and she, you know, robbed a liquor store.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So investigators who were looking into this case, the sheriff's office in Union County, reportedly had some doubts about her story from the beginning. So yeah, so for the first week or so of this case, There was a ton of media attention. There was local, there was national, and there was this gigantic manhunt for the alleged kidnapper and this gigantic search for these two little boys. And
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
It's, you know, she went from zero to a million. So I don't I don't know that that's really like previous criminal history just doesn't really matter. matter in this case, I don't think. And there was a quote from the prosecutor in the AP coverage of this case that I think really kind of hit the nail on the head when they were arguing for the death penalty.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And again, I don't support the death penalty, so I don't sort of care that she didn't get it. But I think this was a really interesting take and said, I just felt strongly that had a Black man with the toboggan hat committed the crime, people would expect the death penalty. if David Smith had committed the crime, people would have expected the death penalty. And I think that's right. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, absolutely. One thing I was thinking about in sort of responses to that quote from Pope is like, if this had been a black male carjacker and he some harm had come to the children or he had killed the children, um, Which in many ways, to me, that is a less heinous crime than killing your own children. I mean, heinous either way, but it's sort of, I think it's sort of less disturbing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I think a mother killing their own children is probably the most disturbing thing that people can sort of come up with. But nonetheless, if it had been a black male offender that had committed this crime, we would not be having a conversation about his mental health.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, no, I mean, it definitely cuts both ways with women in particular. And it is something where like, yeah, if someone is having a genuine psychotic episode or genuinely suffering from delusional disorder, it is complicated. Well, thank you so much, Slesia, for doing this with me. I think this was such a fascinating, thoughtful discussion.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I really urge everyone to check out your show, Truer Crime, forever. more of these kind of insightful takes on cases. And now you have me wanting to go back and listen to your back catalog as well. So yeah, thank you so much for doing this with me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Administrative support from Nola Karmouche.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
The couple, Susan and David Smith, did a bunch of interviews. They did a morning show interview where they were pleading with the kidnapper to return their children. Now, Slicia, did you get a chance to watch any of that video of Susan and David Smith? No.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, so really heartbreaking story, obvious, like easy to see why this really caught attention. And yeah, I think as a parent, like this is just your worst fear, right? Someone disappearing with your kids, anything happening to your kids.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So I think anybody who's a parent, I mean, I think anybody who's a human being with a heart, but also like in particular parents, this just like gets such a visceral fear that like you can see why this had such a big reaction, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So as this is going on, as this massive manhunt is going on, investigators are talking to both of the parents and, you know, like, unfortunately, statistically, if something bad happens to children, it is most likely to be their parents or a family member. The whole stranger danger thing is, you know, which I don't know how old you are, but I was born in the early in the early 80s.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And of course, if you want even more, nobody should believe me. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Patreon and get two bonus episodes a month. Now with that, here's the show. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
So it's like that was kind of like peak like 80s and 90s was like stranger danger, like someone's going to drive up in a van and snatch you. So I think this was still like this was probably still within that cultural context of like a lot of attention to how dangerous strangers could be to children and not a lot of attention to how dangerous parents could be to children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, so basically, you know, as this as these like pleas to the media are happening and she's doing, you know, Susan Smith does a number of interviews. The investigators are looking closely at the parents, right, to see if they know anything about what happened. And Susan Smith's story about the carjacking just basically completely falls apart. There's a ton of holes in it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
The friend that she said she was going to visit wasn't actually home. home that night. The car was nowhere to be found in this gigantic search. There was an issue with the traffic light where she said she was stopped at a traffic light when the carjacker approached her and got in the car and put a gun to her side.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
but there would not have been a red light unless there were any other cars at the intersection then she claimed she was at a different intersection and there was actually a patrol car that had been nearby that intersection so just nothing really added up and they gave her a lie detector test and she had trouble answering the question do you know where your boys are so lie detector tests like from my understanding of you know having having talked to law enforcement about them
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Sort of tricky. They're not actually admissible in court, but obviously, along with the holes in her story and the fact that they could find no evidence of the car, of this alleged carjacker, really, you know, led them to believe that she was lying. And sure enough, under pressure, she confesses to driving her two sons into a lake. Um, so obviously so horrific.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And I have to say like, and it's funny, I'm, I'm now like interested in like what you sort of observed about her when she was doing those interviews in that interim time. Right. And it's, it's hard because knowing the outcome, I think you can kind of project. onto that person of, like, oh, this seems really off. Like, I don't know if that would seem off to me if I didn't know that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here, You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
But she did seem, like, next to her husband in particular. Like, her husband looks genuinely shattered. And... Like Susan just looks kind of blank. And then when she's giving an interview by herself to some TV cameras, she's almost kind of like half smiling. And I wouldn't want to read too much into just that. Right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Because I think people do act weird when they are in states of shock, when they are experiencing grief. Like, I think you can't it's kind of like it reminds me of that whole like Amanda Knox case, you know, where people were like, well, she did a cartwheel and it was like made this big thing. And, you know, she was acting like she was smooching her boyfriend or whatever.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And it's like, well, yeah, people like act weird under stress. That that alone is not evidence of anything. But I have to say, like looking at her and just kind of like looking at her eyes and looking at her facial expressions. She did seem very flat to me in those interviews.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
Yeah, and I certainly agree with you that it's not something you would want to read too much into because I think it can only tell you so much. And I also think that it's really interesting to look at how the media treats female suspects or female offenders. And then especially if that woman is a mom, because I know this as a mom in the world, you know, incredibly judgmental of moms, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
And how they handle everything. And so you really get this like, you know, either they're like sort of saint or sinner thing, right? Yeah. It's like, you wouldn't want to parse too much just based on facial expression or just seems like she's off, you know, like I would be off too if I had, if my children were missing, like, I don't know what, I don't know how I would read on camera, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 14: Susan Smith and the Impact of False Accusations with Celisia Stanton
I think why it intrigued me is because I think a lot about liars and how they compartmentalize because the offenders that I cover, and I mean, I think this is true across like a lot of types of offenders, but, you know, it is that deception piece, right? Of like how you can go on camera and say those things while simultaneously knowing that The reality, right?
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S05 Ep01: Sophie Saves Zambia
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S05 Ep01: Sophie Saves Zambia
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Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep01: Sophie Saves Zambia
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Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 Ep01: Sophie Saves Zambia
But from my observations, she's like the healthiest kid I've ever seen in my life.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Yeah, I just to kind of put a button on that, I think, you know, we sort of talked about in the last episode
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
but while we are trying to be you know yes as open-minded as possible looking at this case i think there are sort of things we will entertain and things that we won't entertain um and the you know the idea again of like child abuse pediatricians being uh looking for cases or you know sort of creating cases that's something that comes up a lot in these lawsuits that came up with sophia
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lawsuit, that came up in my sister's lawsuits, that came up obviously in the Maya Kowalski case. You know, their job is to evaluate abuse in a medical context. So this is a tool to evaluate. And I think it's worth saying that they use video surveillance in other capacities in hospitals, right?
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To monitor for seizure activity, to monitor for other things, that it is a medical tool and that is how it is used by hospitals and by child abuse pediatricians.
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And I think certainly like when you see a parent persistently talking about a child's death who has not been diagnosed with a terminal illness, when they are consulting things like palliative care, hospice care, TPN nutrition for a child that doesn't need it, when you're seeing those kinds of escalations.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
If you have concerns about induction of illness through contamination of a child's line that could lead to, you know, sepsis. And, you know, those kind of things should be taken really seriously. And I think that that's always where kind of the tension in child protection comes in, right? Like where does a parent's rights matter?
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right to make medical decisions for their child and or, you know, where does a parent's right to privacy end if a child's life is in danger? And you are making different decisions with a different sense of urgency if you feel that the child's life is genuinely at risk because you do not know when that will escalate.
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You don't know where along the progression you are at any given moment, and particularly if a child has something like a feeding tube or a port that could lead to death instantly, then that certainly is going to elevate that concern.
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Right. And their job is to evaluate the medical piece.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
And, you know, something that is not mentioned contextually a lot of times in the media coverage of these cases is that child abuse pediatricians, number one, the data shows us that they find, you know, find have findings of abuse in less than 50 percent of the cases that they evaluate and also that they are less likely to come up with findings of abuse than their less well-trained colleagues.
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So, again, I think I said it in the last episode, but I will say if I am a parent who is not abusing my child, I want a child abuse pediatrician making that evaluation. They're less likely to make mistakes.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
Yeah, it's it's pretty loaded. And I think, yeah, again, with the standard being reasonable suspicion. So I gather if you are talking about a false allegation,
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know if an evaluation said that a parent falsified test documents or lied about you know a test result and they just didn't that's not what the medical record shows then that doesn't match up with the medical record then then yeah i mean that would be but it sort of there's a lot of room for for speculation so this this family is saying then that
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
The second report, then we're at the second report that was made when when Madison enters radio children's so yeah take us back to the timeline so there's a period of we know there's a period of covert video surveillance and then how long into her stay there is this second report.
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So we can assume at this point that Dr D now is review and her evaluation process has had findings of abuse. We don't know what specifically was in her report. And we can also assume at this point that H H SA, which is their child protection state team in in California that that division has also done their completed their investigation. And has had positive findings for abuse.
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So I think we can assume both of those things if a judge made this decision. So those two pieces of evidence. And again, like these investigations all look different. They're all kind of complimentary. You know, the child abuse pediatrician's job is to evaluate the medical piece of it. DCF or child, you know, CPS, those entities, their job is to decide whether or not
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
those parents can provide a safe home for that child at that time. So they're gonna talk to other collateral sources, teachers, friends and family member, that kind of thing. They will interview the parents.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
So yeah, just to delineate these, so like child abuse pediatrician, they're looking at the medical piece of it, they're doing a medical evaluation, child protective services, whatever they call that in the state, their job is to decide whether or not this family can provide a safe home for that child. So those obviously all have a lot of interplay, but they all are separate jobs.
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And then a judge's role in this is to make a ruling based on those findings of whether or not those parents can continue to have custody of that child.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
This is a parent's worst fear. I mean, for sure. Like there's a parent's worst fear of someone telling you that you can't be with your children and not knowing sort of when that's going to end. I think we can just fully acknowledge that that is a really heartbreaking thing. And I think most of the people
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Involved in these cases, absolutely acknowledge that that is, you know, I have never met a person that works in child protection or child abuse, pediatrics or any of these roles that relishes separating a parent from their children. We all know and fully recognize that that in and of itself is going to cause trauma to the child and the family. So sometimes it needs to be done.
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But 100 percent, that is a really heartbreaking moment.
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Yeah, so I would have to check the specifics, but I believe the APSAC guidelines say that actually visitation is not recommended in these cases. And that sounds extremely harsh and I understand why that sounds upsetting to people. What I think people need to understand that in Munchausen by proxy abuse specifically, the amount of psychological manipulation is so intense
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
This is something that we know from survivors, that we know from watching these cases play out, that child, and especially I think in a little bit of an older child that is able to be sort of a part of keeping up the, if there is a ruse around an illness, sort of keeping that up.
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This is something that Gypsy Rose Blanchard talked about with her experience, that she would be in the room with her mom and her mom would like put her hand on her shoulder and she would know that that meant she was sort of straying from what she was supposed to do.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
And so I think given that that psychological manipulation is so intense, the recommendations are really to have a separation period where there isn't visitation and there just isn't interaction at all in order to see how that child behaves and like what is really going on with that child without that influence. So that is actually the recommendation. And then in situations where
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
We saw this in the Maya Kowalski case, in the Justina Pelletier case. In the Justina Pelletier case, they absolutely did not follow this rule. But if the parent is allowed some supervised visitation with the child, they absolutely do not discuss
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their health because of the fear that the parent will remind that child that they are supposed to be sick, that not to listen to the doctors that are surrounding them, that they will make it this very contentious relationship with the doctors who are supposed to be treating and healing that child. So there are many reasons why there have to be strong parameters if visitation is allowed.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
Basically, just the parents are alleging that they were not included in the medical decision-making. I think specific to the swallow study, I haven't undergone one. None of my children have ever gone one. They certainly come up all the time in these cases because GI issues are such a huge problem. pretty much ubiquitous part of Munchausen by proxy cases.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
But yeah, I mean, it certainly, when we talk about this child's particular medical history and the things that she underwent up until the point where she was at Rady's, it doesn't stand out to me as something that would be particularly invasive.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, when I look at the things that are outlined in this lawsuit, you know, EKG, renal function panel test, plasma, renin test, which is a blood test, you know, x-ray, medical behavioral treatments. I mean, those are things that would make a lot of sense if you are treating a child's
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with a lot of medical complexity and a lot of medical complexity that you're not sure is what the parents have said it was. Like if you are treating a child in the context of a medical child abuse suspicion, I mean, these things make a lot of sense if you're trying to figure out what is really going on with this child and what might be a fabrication.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
This case is so complex and I am so thankful to Dr. Becks, our resident pediatric hospitalist and frequent co-host, for all of her work researching this. I am currently up to my eyeballs in my reporting for season six, which will be coming to your ears on June 19th.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
So thank you as much for being here to walk us through the rest of what we know right now about the lawsuit involving the Mayer family and Ratty Children's in San Diego. So Becks, can you just catch us up on where we left off in the last episode and just get us back into what we know about the series of events that led up to this lawsuit? So
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
Scarlet letter. I mean, that certainly is. I would say that is a very emotionally evocative language. And I think it's very interesting in like because there's this tension between the rights of the parents and the safety of the child. That certainly puts.
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like emphasis on the experience of the parents right so not this sort of thought of like yes we should always look at child abuse you know sort of like not focused on the child and what she may have experienced or what may have you know been a possibility but really looking at that experience of that parents dealing with that accusation and now certainly i want to acknowledge that like that would be horrible we recognize that it's horrible for a family to be accused of abuse
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However, abuse is very much a part of our society and child abuse as a whole is common. Munchausen by proxy abuse is not rare. So, yeah, that's certainly striking and certainly mirrors many of the other lawsuits I've seen certainly came to play in the Kowalski case.
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where, you know, in that instance, because of Beata's suicide, that the implication was that these accusations that she was a perpetrator of Munchausen by proxy abuse drove her to suicide because they were so emotionally distressing. And so I think that is, yeah, that's certainly striking, certainly striking language and it's striking language to use as a judge, right?
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And I think we have, which I have been, thoroughly disabused of this notion at this point, but I think we have this idea that judges are these sort of neutral parties that are going to make decisions based on legal precedent and the facts in front of them, and that's just not what happens.
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I think particularly in family court situations where you're not dealing with the same level of evidence that's being presented, I have seen quite a lot of op from judges in these decisions and quite a lot of extremely colorful language about the nature of that, which, of course, is, you know, a judge's prerogative, I suppose.
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But but, yeah, I think it is, you know, judges are human beings that bring all their biases and feelings to their to the bench with them. And it certainly seems like this judge may have had some feelings about this case.
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Off the top of my head, my sisters, Sophie Hartmans, Mary Welch, a police investigation was ongoing when the family court, because the family court is based on preponderance of evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt, it doesn't involve a jury. It's a much less robust process. That often comes to a decision point before the criminal court follows through. So where are we now?
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When is this happening? The judge makes a decision that returns custody of Madison to her parents. How long has she been in Raddy's when this happens?
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
you know kind of process and present and so so at that point yeah so as you said she remains in the hospital for whatever whatever medical condition complexities is still ongoing with her um and but her parents now have custody back so there would be presumably no restrictions
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um of course there could be i mean we've seen court orders where there are you know the sophie hartman the case is one where you know there were additional restrictions put on for like a period of time so we don't really know that to be the case but likely they were then much more involved with her and with her medical decision making than they were previous to that decision
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Right. Because this is always one of the huge challenges of covering these cases and The reason we were able to cover them so robustly in the my quality case was because of the litigation that brought much of that into the public record that would not have otherwise been. Because again, this varies from state to state, but certainly anything involving child protection work.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
family court dependency decisions, those are all sealed under ordinary circumstances, as is, of course, the medical records themselves. Any reports that the child abuse pediatrician would have made, those would all be sealed because of HIPAA and or because they're sensitive documents related to child protection.
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So yeah, the tracking down of the source documents and the availability of those can be very difficult in these cases.
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All right. Well, thank you so much, Bex, for your research on this case and for walking us through it. And we will see you next week. This episode of Nobody Should Believe Me Case Files was hosted and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Dr. Becks is my co-host and the lead researcher for the Ratty Children's case. Mariah Gossett is our supervising producer.
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Greta Stromquist is our producer and editor. Aaron Ajayi is our fact checker. And thanks also to Nola Karmouche for administrative support.
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Got it. And I did want to just flag that we have heard from some listeners who have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome after the airing of our first episode. And so we just wanted to recognize that and say, anybody, feel free to always send us your feedback. But nothing about this conversation is meant to indicate that Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. in and of itself is a questionable condition.
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It is very much a real thing and can lead to quite a bit of medical complexity. So we just wanted to recognize that up top.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and today we are sharing part two in our series on the lawsuit against Ratty Children's in San Diego. If you have not listened to part one yet, please go back and start there as you will otherwise be quite lost.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
Yeah, and we still have much more to unpack about this particular case, but whenever we are talking about illnesses that happen to come up a lot in Munchausen by proxy cases or in suspected Munchausen by proxy cases, the reason for flagging those is not to say that anybody who has that diagnosis is a red flag.
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And just a reminder that if you are a subscriber on Apple or Patreon, you will get all eight episodes in your feed on the day it launches. You also get two bonus episodes a month of our subscriber show, Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours. with me and Dr. Becks. We talk about a lot of pop culture crossover on that show.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
we are trying to point out what the questionable patterns are that surround those diagnoses. Because we have very much seen that, the example I'm thinking at the top of my head is with like the AHC community that we covered in season five of the show, right?
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That we've seen perpetrators take a lot of resources from those communities, mess the data up, especially if it's something that is super rare. And so we see a lot of harm to those communities of people that legitimately have these diseases and or people who are parents of children that have these diseases. We see a lot of harm being caused to those communities by perpetrators.
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And again, that's not to say that specifically in this case, because we don't know enough to say either way at this point. But that's just it. That's just a really important caveat that I wanted to point out as we get into these questions surrounding Madison's treatment and this doctor that she saw in New York.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
Right now, we are covering the Elizabeth Finch case, which was featured in the Peacock documentary, The Anatomy of Lies. You can also join our Patreon as a free member and sample some of our bonus content there before you commit. We are so grateful for your support. There truly is no show without you. And with that, on with the episode. You know I love quince. I talk about it here.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
So, Bex, I know we're going to, you know, once we kind of get through the timeline of what led us up to that, we are going to take a closer look at a number of these doctors that were involved in these cases and kind of what we know about them and their procedures. But for now, so Madison gets these additional diagnoses and then returns to San Diego.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
So we're going to talk a little bit more about Dr. Sheila Nino and exactly how her association with this hospital and the child abuse team works, because this is very different from state to state and hospital to hospital, how these sort of teams interact. So we will break that down a little bit more in a future episode. But for now, what do we know about this admission to Rady Children's?
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So by the time they get to Rady's, it sounds like we're to assume that there is some suspicion of abuse by the time they get to Rady's.
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Absolutely. And B Yorker, who is a friend of the show and a frequent contributor and a very well-regarded expert in Munchausen by proxy, has actually written about the sort of legal implications of using covert video surveillance. And it can be an extremely helpful tool, especially in cases of, you know, that are serious and life threatening.
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I talk about it in my real life. My friends love quince. My producer Mariah loves quince. My mom loves quince. I am wearing a quince t-shirt right now. No exaggeration. I think probably half of my clothes are from this brand at this point. So it is finally warming up here in the Pacific Northwest. And I popped over to Quince for a little summer refresh. And boy, did they deliver.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
Actually, the case that we're covering for season six involves covert video surveillance. There was some covert video surveillance in my sister's case. These can capture anything from instances of suffocation to instances of illness induction via a child's line, improper use of medications, like that kind of thing.
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It's really important to understand when you're looking at these cases that you're not looking for a single incident. It is very unlike something like a broken bone or abusive head trauma, where those also might be sort of patterns of abuse over time, but you are looking at a single incident and trying to unpack what happened around a single moment in time or a single period of time.
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Case Files 18: Rady Children’s Part 2
So for Munchausen by proxy abuse, you know, you're looking for this pattern. And so covert video surveillance can provide a piece of abuse. It is not the only thing. And importantly, I think it's not exculpatory if there's nothing that happens under that. You know, we've seen that.
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I'm thinking of the Brittany Phillips case, actually, where she was put under video surveillance that did not capture anything, but she pointed out, like, the video camera and said, you're watching me. It's not a sort of black and white thing, but certainly if something is captured, that is a very strong piece of evidence.
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There are other pieces of evidence, you know, in Brittany Phillips' case that I was mentioning earlier, Obviously the medical record review is a huge piece of it, as well as other sort of instances of fabrication that when you cross-reference with social media and in that case, her internet search played a big role. So it is a tool.
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Just when Kelsey thought her relationship with Morgan was over, Morgan came to her with devastating news. She had bone cancer and she was dying. Kelsey was no stranger to cancer. She grew up watching her mother's breast cancer go into remission and return again. It was a horrible cycle. And to think another person she loved was going through this was hard to fathom.
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Once again, she was juggling the weight of school and being there for Morgan.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Christmas was a few weeks away. With Morgan's family out of the picture, they decided to celebrate with a family friend. an older woman named Joanne, who'd been a mentor to Morgan for years.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
It was a relief to talk with someone else who'd been involved with Morgan's care. She was a great resource. For Christmas, Morgan and Kelsey got each other something special. We got rings for our wedding. rings for their wedding. Morgan wanted to get married to Kelsey. It was a legal and financial decision.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Morgan wanted the money to be donated to a library foundation. Kelsey was honored to help facilitate one of her final wishes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Kelsey felt a responsibility to make sure every day was a good day.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
But the days were still difficult, especially as Morgan's health worsened.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
This only furthered Kelsey's resolve to support Morgan. She offered again to go to the hospital with her, to be by her side as she got treatment. Morgan said no. She didn't want to be a burden.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
After all, it was Kelsey's job that kept them afloat financially. As the weeks went on, the treatment seemed to be slowing the progression of her cancer, and Morgan hit the three-month mark.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
For the past three months, Kelsey had been bracing herself for the end, putting her all into caring for Morgan. It had been exhausting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
In her last semester, she earned B's and C's, and her dreams of being valedictorian were dashed. Instead of giving the valedictorian speech, she applied to be an honorary student speaker at commencement.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
After she graduated, they finally had the time to plan a small wedding ceremony. At the time, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in their state, so they had to travel.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Kelsey drove them to California, with Morgan asleep in the passenger seat. Along the way, they camped in national parks.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes or And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
The day before the ceremony, they both sat down to write their vows.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
They delivered their vows and signed the papers in Sequoia National Park.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Being officially married was a relief. It was the final thing Morgan wanted to do before she passed away.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
In less than a year, Kelsey and Morgan went from being 21-year-olds at camp to being a married couple handling a terminal disease. Now they were committed to each other for however much time Morgan had left. Kelsey had been accepted into a master's program across the country. Neither of them expected Morgan to be alive for that next chapter.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
This is Kelsey's story of building her life around someone else's lies. Lies that consumed Kelsey's 20s, derailed her early career, and destroyed her sense of trust. For many years, she tried to hide from the deception she experienced. But now, she's ready to tell her story. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
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Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
They make incredibly compelling content in an extremely ethical and sensitive way, and we love that over here at Nobody Should Believe Me. So I'm not going to give any spoilers about today's episode, but needless to say, it is right up our collective alley. You can find a link to Betrayal Weekly in our show notes. And with that, please enjoy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
When she was a little girl, Kelsey's mom told her the origin story of their family unit. It was a survival story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Her mom and the three girls started anew in a small West Coast town, but the fear of her dad was always looming in the background.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Nearly everyone in their new town was Mormon. And their family wasn't. Their dad was Cuban. So Kelsey and her sisters stood out in a sea of blonde hair and blue eyes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Her mom's survival story had another chapter. For Kelsey's entire childhood, her mom battled breast cancer.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
As a kid, Kelsey didn't know the details. She just knew her mom was exhausted and was always going to the hospital.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and today I am so excited to share an episode of one of my favorite shows, Betrayal Weekly. I just did a big crossover special with host and producer Andrea Gunning, Andrea's of True Crime Unite, and I have been a guest on Betrayal Weekly, and I just really admire this team so much.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Over the summer, she started going to Girl Scout Camp. There, she was allowed to just be a kid.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
The women who ran the camp were Kelsey's idols. She wanted to be just like them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
As she got older and entered high school, she started dreaming about broadening her horizons.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Kelsey and her high school girlfriend kept their relationship a secret. It was in the mid-2000s, and they were in a mostly Mormon community.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
So she set her sights on going to college in a place where she could be out and be herself. She was accepted to her first choice and made the leap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MBP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
But her family's finances took an unexpected turn. So after the first year, Kelsey had to transfer to a new university, one that she'd be paying for herself.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
She worked to put herself through college and she started working summers as a counselor at her old Girl Scout camp.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
By her third summer, she earned an executive leadership role at the camp, helping coordinate all the younger counselors.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Arriving at camp was a much-anticipated reunion, where she saw all of her closest friends again.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
One of the new counselors immediately caught Kelsey's attention. Her name was Morgan.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
She kept to herself and seemed guarded. I found her to be really mysterious.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Even though Morgan was only 20 years old, she'd been through a lot.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Morgan confided in her. Forming close bonds was a hallmark of the camp experience. They would be spending every day together for the next three months.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
At camp, there were no cell phones, no distractions from the outside world. And in this bubble, Kelsey knew she was developing feelings for Morgan. But she was in a leadership role. And then there was this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
So they continued on with a supercharged friendship. It was a connection Morgan needed. At home, she'd been struggling with an eating disorder.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
That kind of structure and vigilance around food was really triggering for Morgan. In fact, it was having an impact on her job performance.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
The idea of losing Morgan at camp was upsetting. Kelsey felt a responsibility to help as both a friend and a camp executive.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
About halfway through the summer, they took a day off together and drove to Kelsey's hometown.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
Near the end of camp, Morgan's parents came to town. They were devout Mormons. And on that visit, Morgan wanted to come out to them. Kelsey drove her to meet them, to be there for emotional support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
There was so much at stake, and Morgan was now left on her own. They made their relationship official. And when camp ended, Morgan couldn't go home. So they decided to move in together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
It was Kelsey's last year of college. At first, living with Morgan was a novelty. Even mundane tasks were exciting.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Betrayal Weekly
It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I love the eyeballs. My cover art is great.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Which, again, like, honestly, solid for an independent podcast launch, for sure. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
What is happening? Right, because just like for context, like for an indie podcast to do that, I mean, like just.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I have to say, and we should definitely talk about reviews and how to handle them because that's a whole other funny thing. But, like, it is, I mean, I think if you're getting, I mean, I think there are some shows where, like, just, like, the topic is not so controversial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But, like, I tend to think when I see podcast reviews, I mean, I take them with a sort of, like, oh, if someone has, like, a lot of five-star reviews and a lot of one-star reviews, I'm like, oh, this person's doing something interesting. You know, like, yeah. But, yeah, it's something.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
That's intense. That's an intense entry into that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
You're realizing how much of an outlier, how much crazy those numbers are.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Well, and it's also, it's a huge shift in format because we were both in that same position. You know, I kind of went into that position like after season two and then, you know, made with anybody who's listened to season three of my show, you know, we're following this case as it was unfolding in this trial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I was like, okay, I'm going to do an episode on it because there was this horrible Netflix film about the case that was just completely, you know, fictional. And so I was like, I'll do a round table episode of that. And then I was like, ended up deciding to cover this case in real time. And so then I ended up with a weekly show and that's why I was like doing so much work on it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But like, that's not a, like to take something from what was essentially, you know, we both made this first seasons of our show basically as limited series. So yeah, I mean, so we basically have these like eight episode limited series. That was what it was originally. And so then like, it's not like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
totally clear how to like even make a second season, let alone to go into a weekly format, which is like so intense. And I mean, when I was making the third season, it's like I felt like I worked in a newsroom.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I mean, it was totally different than, you know, kind of having like the first two seasons where I was like, because the first two seasons were mostly made before it ever launched, like it had this like very relaxed sort of timelines. And you can kind of take your time with it. And so it's just not like an
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And again, it's like the last thing you want to do is, and I remember this is sort of where at some point where I entered the chat, you know, it's like the last thing you want to do is take this show that really worked for people and found an audience and destroy it, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
You don't want to then just start like pumping something into the feed every week that's not, you know, that's not at all the same quality or that doesn't have those elements of what people loved about the show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there. We made the first seasons of our shows with the same production company. So that is how we met through your lovely, now producer, Syd, who I also worked with on some seasons of my show while I was there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So the minimum guarantee, just to explain, is like basically you get, you know, a monthly minimum. So network will front you that cost, but then it's usually tied to you hitting some kind of download number. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So that is actually how we met, not while we were both working with that studio, but afterwards. So how did you make the choice to go down that particular road of hiring a production company?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Like, what are the roles? Like, who do I trust? How do I find that person? Like, it's not, it's not this sort of like automatic plug and play thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
You know, if you happen to be a person who launched your podcast after, you know, 10 years of working at NPR, or in some like, you know, somewhere in the audio industry, well, yeah, then you can be like, oh, my friend is a producer, and I need this person, this person, this person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But if you're coming in just completely, you know, from another industry in the arts, or from not an industry in the arts, then you just don't even know who you need, or how to find them, to find good people.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It's a very strong bond. It is. The bond with host and producer, that is so integral to podcasting. And I think that's something that maybe is so behind the scenes. And I know I have a lot of people that talk to me about my show. I'm sure you have the same thing where they're like, oh, I love your show. I love the way you do this, you do that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I'm like, well, I will take credit for the parts of it that I'm reading. And obviously, I'm very, very much integrated into my show. But I'm also like, yeah, I have a great producer. And I have, you know, awesome sound engineers and they, you know, my producer does a lot of the sound design. It's like all of those elements, they come together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Get that LLC filed, baby, and off you go. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
We can both vouch for Sid. I have also worked with Sid. Phenomenal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But Cyd's also working on some projects of her own, which we will be very excited and you will hear about on both of our shows.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
There's a growing industry and it grows year over year by huge strides, which is so different for me coming from book publishing. Maybe you have one sector, it's like romance novels grow or audio books are growing, but you don't see the industry itself growing. With podcasting, it's just like every year it grows by these huge leaps.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And there is a lot of, I mean, and this is something, you know, this is the reason I started True Story Media with my partner, Ben Watson, who has his company Impressions FM. And he's, you know, we started working together this year and he's done a phenomenal job with
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
both with my ad sales, but also with just really helping me understand the industry, and marketing tactics, and data, and just all of these things that have been so helpful to me as a creator. And then I was hearing a lot of stories from friends who had just gotten into these horrible situations that were just exploitative.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I was like, well, this industry is nothing without the people creating the content. There should be much more respect for that end of things. And so I really, you know, worked with Ben to design a network that I would have said yes to, right?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Like that has like, you know, yeah, a sense of community, like a strong brand in terms of like what the shows are, what we are and what we're not, you know, really utilizing like cross promotion. Because that's the other thing for a podcast is like, you know, cross promoting with other podcasts is like the way to build an audience, right? I mean, that is like so effective.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Yeah, that's how, I mean, that's like the number one sort of tactic to be able to build a show. And so, you know, looking for ways to like offer that to creators and also, you know, and also for obviously for my own show. But yeah, I'm just looking at like, okay, giving the best revenue share possible. And, you know, and we have like a profit sharing model with True Story Media and, you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
So making the contract term completely flexible, right? Come in when you want, leave when you want. We're not trying to hold anybody hostage. It's like we're helping with ad sales and we're helping you grow your show. So we will take a percentage of that. But like these other things where it's like if you get a movie deal or a book deal or whatever, we'll cheer you on.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But like we're not going to try and take it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
It's sort of like, it seemed so, I mean, I think the way that a lot of this industry works to me is extremely short-sighted, right? Because it's like, okay, if you want, like, if you acquire...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
a show don't kill it like right then you won't get money from it like even just from like obviously from an ethical standpoint it's terrible but like uh you know you should never count on people's ethics to necessarily steer them even from a business perspective it seems short-sighted and stupid to like yeah why would you not want to do everything you can to grow the shows on your network so that they make more money you're getting a percentage of that like hello i
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Not a math whiz over here, but that's just business math. It's so silly. But you want to like, you know, I really wanted to like create an environment that could be sustainable. And especially with true crime, right? Especially people that are doing the stuff that I also admire as a listener who are really like talented.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Tackling difficult things and telling personal stories and helping other people tell their first person stories. It is really difficult, emotional wearing work. And you don't need to be like, it's so stressful to be trying to do that work. And also just worrying that like, you're not going to make enough money to keep yourself.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And it's like, listen, it is a challenge no matter what to make enough revenue to actually support your show, let alone to make it part of your income or your whole income. And there's only ever going to be some percentage of podcasts that are able to do that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
But even within that, even if it's a hobbyist show or it's someone's part-time gig, just to be able to monetize that as well as it can be monetized, to be able to reach as big of an audience as it can, So that like creators can mostly focus on making their show and know it's in good hands. And, you know, like Ben Watson, who's my partner, like he is just so trustworthy. I, I, I heart Ben.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And he's. So knowledgeable, so accessible, which is not easy. Right. It's like a lot of a lot of times there's just so much opacity around the business stuff. And like there isn't that like, you know, ad sellers like, you know, tend to sort of stay in their lane. Like Ben is like not not he's in all the lanes. Right. He's just and I think that that's what makes him such a good partner.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And, you know, I was very impressed like when I was talking to when I was trying to find a new ad seller last year and talking to a couple of, you know, the same companies you were talking to. He just sent me the algorithm that he was using. He's like, here's how I came across that number. And then he's a big under promise over deliver guy too. So it's like we've by far beat those predictions.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Right, right. It's just the basics.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated. The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
What followed was a year of upheaval, violence, and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North. In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. There are some very bad actors in the industry for sure. And this is a very burgeoning industry. It is still figuring out what it is and what the industry standards are. So this isn't all nefarious, right? We're still figuring out what the industry standards are.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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it's the wild west it's so unlike you know with like with book publishing right it's like book publishing has been the same business model within traditional book publishing forever right and you can't do business in book publishing on the traditional side really without an agent and my agent i've been with my agent for almost 11 years she is amazing i would never do business in that industry without her like we do not have those same industry standards for podcasting right and so it's sort of like
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The agents, to me, question mark, still not sure. I talked to some and I was like, I don't like where I'm at right now with having built a show already. I don't know what I would hire you for right now. But like the two biggest companies that you're going to get most of your downloads from are Apple and Spotify. And so decisions that are made at those companies
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have huge downstream effects like when Apple did its iOS update and that was like different you know that was that changed how um you know that changed how downloads were counted and like for us we lost I mean I don't know we went from like sort of 800,000 to like 600,000 so like we got a hit but like not massive there were shows that lost 90 percent of their numbers from that
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update and like that is i mean that's like decimates your show yeah so like and then you know spotify like is you know adding new features all the time and like they now are transitioning into doing video for you know premium content subscribers which is a big industry story and there's this huge like sort of push to to to add video content and do you know for spotify for youtube and
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And that's how a lot of people are listening and discovering the podcast is on YouTube. And so it's like, there are all these things that really affect how everything else is done. And that to me actually is very exciting, but it also really means you have to know and be working with people who really understand the industry, which is what Ben brought in so much experience.
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Well, yeah, like, subscribing to a show, obviously, like, that's a huge thing for us. But, like, also just sitting through our ads. Yeah. Just, like, letting the ads play. Like, I know commercials are, like, people get annoyed by them. And, like, I certainly try and be judicious about how many ads I play on my show. Some shows definitely overdo it.
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But, like, just know that, like, if you are sitting there listening to an ad, like, you are monetarily, you are meaningfully helping that show. Right. continue to be made, you know, sharing on social media, leaving reviews, like I think even mixed reviews like help, right?
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We'll talk about reviews, any reviews, you know, leaving comments on Spotify, like all that engagement, like it really does help. And like, there is like, I think sometimes we can get detached from like, how, you know, how expensive and time consuming it is to make the content that you love. Because as you know, if you're listening to a podcast in general, you're getting it for free.
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Anything you can do to sort of like help that creator keep making
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Okay, so we touched on this a little bit earlier, but one of the things about having a podcast that really breaks out is the conversation is no longer one way because you start hearing from a lot of people. And we have very different perspectives. approaches to dealing with this. So I thought this would be really fun to talk about.
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So tell us about the response to the show and how you have, especially with this being your first, you know, I've had books come out, which like none of them have had like this kind of, you know, like this kind of audience that the show has. So it was definitely like different experience, but I have had that experience of people critiquing my work and getting in touch with me about it.
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So what was that like for you? How did you hear from people? And what was the feedback and how did you interact with it?
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Not in my business. That's a deal you're making. People can think whatever they want. They can say whatever they want. That's why you make it public and it's not a journal.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Call your grandchild or look up a Google tutorial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
In this conversation today, we are talking about all the behind the scenes of podcasting and what it's like to make all of this work as an independent podcaster. I love talking shop with other podcasters, and I hope you enjoy. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now.
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Yeah, it's this idea that like, yeah, you have to have like the most dramatic or the worst. And it's like storytelling is an art because it doesn't mean that it's just the most dramatic story. And I think especially like real life storytelling actually is more challenging than fiction, I think in many ways.
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And that's sort of like you were alluding to sort of like the saturation of the memoir category in book publishing. And it's so true because as I've been working in book publishing, my first job was with Random House where I worked for my 20s.
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So I've been in book publishing a long time, so something I hear from a lot of people is like, well, someone should write a book about my life, like, because my life is, you know, and I'm like, well, yeah, like, I actually think everyone's life is interesting, like, you know, to a degree, right? It's like humans are interesting. Families are interesting.
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It's trying to put that like the art is on putting that on the page or getting it into a show where you can make it into a compelling story that people want to listen to. And so I think like it's a very thin critique. And I think probably the breakout success of the show was part of what fueled some of that negative feedback.
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And I'm like, yep. Yeah, that's literally the show.
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I think the other thing which I wonder how you're dealing with this, especially given that you are now, and I think this is a very cool thing and a very interesting thing as a show evolves and is on the air for a while, that it does start to be in conversation with its audience so much more.
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That's what we're using our Case Files episodes for, is to talk about the person who got in touch because they have CRPS. or like a person who, you know, is a survivor or these other experts that are that are interesting to get in touch. So I really love that piece of it.
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Yeah, and like we should say, and yes, for me too, and I think I am now finally. But like it. Yeah. I mean, it's even with a like runaway, I mean, especially your show. And we can talk about this sort of in numbers wise. But like, you know, so for my show, you know, so we launched the first season, definitely found an audience.
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But I also find it, you know, and fortunately, I mean, this was a big part of why I started the nonprofit before the show was because I knew that I was going to need to have some place to send people that is not me. Right. Because I can't give you legal advice on your case if it's a court case. I can't help you find a therapist. I mean, just like I don't have the ability to do those things.
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But, you know, I have this network of amazing experts. from the APSAC committee who are all very dedicated that sort of help field a lot of the responses that come in from the show that then go to Munchausen support, which is the nonprofit, which I am, again, still involved with. So I knew I needed some infrastructure there, but I think for me, I realized in the very beginning,
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when I would get notes, especially from survivors, like, you know, get on the phone with them. And I was just like, oh, this is going to wear me out so fast. And I will not be able to keep making the show. Like I have to choose between this and making the show. And I wonder for you, as you say, you're hearing from a lot of people with You know, their trauma.
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And I understand because it's like it is such an intimate medium and people have a very strong parasocial connection with you and they feel like they can tell you. And that feels, you know, like a huge honor and sort of responsibility that can be tough to bear. So I wonder for you, like, how do you deal with that?
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like those responses from people that you're getting where they're really sharing a lot of personal stuff with you.
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And you spend so much time with it. I mean, yeah, it's the same thing for my team. Like my producer, Mariah, actually, you know, because she's the person who listens to all the raw tape multiple times and pulls the selects, which is like a big part of the job of a producer for a show like this. Like she's spending actually way more time listening to those details over and over again than I am.
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You know, we were getting like 60,000 downloads a month, which is actually like pretty solid. And that puts you in a even that sort of you're in a pretty small category of shows. And like you, I mean, I didn't know anything about monetization. So I was working with, you know, an original ad seller that was like meh. And, you know, but the show was monetized like pretty, pretty immediately. Right.
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So I think, yeah, it's a lot.
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It's worth it. It's really rewarding. I mean, I think that's like, you know, that's something a lot of people ask me specifically with my show. You know, we're talking about very, very difficult stories of child abuse. And it is difficult material to spend with it. And in the beginning, I did find some of it triggering. I have really that is very well managed now.
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I it is also so rewarding and it's so like coming from. in the situation in my own life feeling extremely powerless, to be able to be of use to this cause is extremely healing for me. And to be able to meet all these people and sit with them, I get way more out of it. And I think it's just about managing all those pieces. So Brittany, you have a big year coming up. I have a big year coming up.
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So what's on deck for you next?
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Yes. So season five, which is the story of Sophie Hartman, who is a white evangelical missionary who adopted two little girls from Zambia and was investigated a couple of years ago for medical child abuse here in Seattle, where we both live. So that is the Putting all those episodes in the can right now. So again, if you are a subscriber, you will be able to get all eight episodes.
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During the first season or after the first season. And then I had a long break while I was like getting because I had been working on the second season. But my show was originally seasonal. Now we sort of are the seasonal and always on. We do both the second season, you know, interestingly, because
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It's the first time we've ever done that to get everything in the can before launch. So that has been quite a deadline machine, but very, very excited to share that one with people. I think I go into every season being like, no, this is the craziest case we've ever covered. But this one really has some unique elements in terms of, you know, sort of diving into the evangelical stuff.
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And there's a lot of interesting elements of the sort of transracial adoptions and that kind of thing. So, yeah, I'm very excited to share that season with listeners. And then we will have another season. We'll have our second season. season in 2025 later in the year, and then we are in that weekly format. So I have a lot of interesting topics we're going to be touching on in the next year.
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I am also doing a tour at some point. Details still TBD on that. And I am launching... a book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, which I co-authored with Detective Mike Weber, who fans of the show will know. So we are going to be doing some press and some events. So keep your eyes out for all of that.
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And then we're also kind of officially launching True Story Media, which is the network that you joined us on Right. And yeah, so we're really excited about that. And just I'm talking to a lot of potential creator partners. And so we're going to be getting all that up and running. And I think that will keep me out of trouble.
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Yeah, I feel ready. You know, like being in your 40s, like if you are a woman and listening to this in like your 20s or, you know, or 30s or whatever, and just know that like being in your 40s rules, like it is so much better than... Like it just, you really like, I, I can't speak highly enough of it.
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I think it's a, it's a, it's a time when you feel like you can really like do the things that you were meant to do and kind of like, yeah, it's, it's really been.
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No, my dad gets mad if I swear.
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Part of how I financed the second season was I had I had a deal with a network that went south before my show even launched. And that was like a whole drama that I've talked about a little bit on the show. I was very illuminating.
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actually it gets mad if anyone's i remember i um i i was i was covering something from um it's it's not really because of my dad it's more just a sort of like that's kind of just my my style um but yeah i did uh i did cover some some very irresponsible coverage of the maya kowalski case that happened on a podcast that's called guys we fucked and um i i did say the name of the podcast to attribute the clips i was obviously um and uh my dad was like i don't
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know about that vulgar language that show is called. I was like, well, dad, that is the name of the show. So it's not. I mean, I think I probably do, especially in the first season where there's a little bit more of me like off and off talking. But yeah, no, I don't.
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Thank you for hosting. I'll give you a key.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Unfortunately, it is a little bit of a drive from where I live.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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That is that's helpful. That's helpful when you're coming down to Seattle. So thank you so much, Britt. And excited for both of us to just like.
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rule the world yeah i'm really i'm really excited go get them i really appreciate that um i have a friend in this business i think it's huge well i feels good appreciate being your friend also i'm happy to be that person for you nobody should believe me case files is produced and hosted by me andrea dunlop our editor is greta stromquist and our senior producer is mariah gossett administrative support from nola karmush
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It was very like it was a really, really good lesson about how, oh, like if you, you know, like you can be told left, right and sideways that you have control over your show. But actually, if you have sold it to a network, you do not. And like that's that's true. And so it's just like they will always be watching for their bottom line. And that's just That's just the way it is.
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Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon.
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered, how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
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And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book, and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
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True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I've got a fun bonus episode for you today. Today we are chatting with Brittany Ard from You Probably Think This Show Is About You. This show was a huge breakout hit when it launched last year, and it went to number one on Apple and Spotify. Britt and I are both here in Seattle, and she's on my new network, True Story Media.
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It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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Sort of like, I don't know if that's good or bad. It just is.
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No, I mean, it almost did. But yes, I mean, like our production costs for both of our shows were very, very high. And that's for a number of reasons. Yeah. So even that, but that is how I was able to, you know, make a second season, right? So then we, because I did end up getting to keep that money. Yeah. So then my second season came out in the summer of 2022.
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And, you know, going into that, I was like, I don't know how I'm going to keep making this show. And especially because where the numbers were at then, you know, it was definitely not possible. Right. And then the show really took off. I mean, the thing that I peg it to is.
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although this was not responsible for this kind of, it's certainly not like, you know, we've, we've been on new and noteworthy a bunch of times since. And it's not, I mean, we always get a bump from it, but it was on new and noteworthy. And then it just like went through the roof. And there was like a, you know, there was a bunch of other stuff. We'd been on the air for a while.
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We had an audience there. I'd been doing interviews. I'd been doing cross promos. So it wasn't only that, but then it was like overnight, you know, we went from having like, you know, we started our second season. We had kind of like 80, okay. A hundred thousand downloads a month. Um, and then all of a sudden we had like 800,000 downloads a month, right? It's a huge jump.
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And then, you know, and then we've sort of, numbers have gone up and down. We've grown a lot this year, even after that, but we had like the iOS update, which anyone in podcasting knows, like Apple changed how they counted downloads and everyone got hit.
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But yeah, so I mean, it was at that point where I realized that I was like, oh, I don't have to, because before that I was like, oh, I have to sell this show to a network. Like I have to go back into this sort of like, which was not really what I wanted, but it was like a financially not feasible to keep making the show. And then I had this conversation with actually Scott Solomon from Spotify.
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Who's amazing. Who's amazing, who we both love, like one of my favorite people in the industry. And he was like, and again, I didn't, I had an ad sales company who was working, but I didn't know anything about monetization period, right? And he was like, oh, you shouldn't be trying to sell your show to a network. You should start a network. And he was the first person who put that.
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And I was like, oh. And then he was like, you know, was telling me like all this stuff. He's like, here, here's what you need to know. I went on this whole thing about like CPMs and like this and that and programmatic everything. And I was like, Scott, that all sounds great. I have no idea what you just said.
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right so i really went on this journey to like really learn a lot about how sort of the back end of advertising so i didn't understand really a lot about that when i came in or really anything or like especially the specifics of how it worked right um and so the business of podcasting can be quite opaque and so i was able to make my show profitable by moving on and hiring a team of my own that was freelancers and really just like yeah making it a really tight ship um and certainly that was much easier to do once i knew what i was doing right because i
Nobody Should Believe Me
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But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career.
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I was always very involved with my show, but, you know, especially like in the third season, like I really, you know, I was like pulling selects and really doing like a lot of stuff that was just like way, way more hands on on the producer side. And, you know, and I think I have a very like it's given me a perspective on like, yeah, how how much a really talented, lean team can accomplish.
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And also I have so much appreciation for People like Sid and my wonderful producer, Mariah Gossett, my sound engineer, Robin Edgar, they're so talented. And those roles are really part of having a good story editor. Those roles are so integral to making... a really good podcast, especially when you have a format like ours, right, where you're doing documentary style.
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You know, our shows are on the more expensive end, regardless of how you do them, because they just are like, you know, we travel, we do you do field recording, you do lots of different voices in one episode, which makes it more expensive for them, the sound engineering. So there's like just a lot of pieces. It's not that standard just interview interview. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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And we do some of those episodes now for sort of in-between seasons. And those are far easier to pull off. But it's storytelling.
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It is. It is. And, you know, my show is very, very research heavy. And there's just a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of elements.
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I mean, and I, that is a part of my show. It's very, it's very time consuming. And actually for season five was the first time I've ever hired someone to help with research. And it was like, oh, such a godsend. And she found incredible stuff like on sort of the Wayback Machine internet archive and stuff, you know, where I'm just like, this person is amazing. So I'll probably keep her forever.
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But yeah, I also deal with a very litigious group of people that I'm covering, which was why, and understandably, I think, I understand why people are, I mean, part of the biggest reason I got into this is I saw, when I launched my book, I saw how reticent traditional media was to cover these cases, especially if one has not had a criminal conviction, which is most of them.
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And I was like, oh, like literally no one else is gonna do this. At least not that I can see.
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Yeah. And it's, I mean, and definitely like Mike Weber was so integral to the launch of the show. And this is, you know, part of the reason we are, you know, doing this book together that the mother next door that comes out in February, that is about three of his cases and really just about his career and how he sort of, came to be this very well-known detective in this arena.
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And yeah, I mean, so it definitely like I think that that is what is so exciting to me about podcasting. Very different from like, you know, I come from a really traditional form of media. I come from book publishing. I was a publicist, so I worked a lot with the traditional media back in the aughts where it was like obviously a very, very different landscape. And and I've seen like how
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Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover. We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me.
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like those challenges are and like how these stories in particular get shut down. Right. And so it definitely took some doing to figure out how to cover cases and be legally, you know, robust enough to put them out.
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Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I mean, you know, it seemed to you like you, you know, a lot of your first season was about your own story, but you did talk to other people who'd had interactions with anyone. You interviewed your parents and, you know, like, I mean, you interviewed your dad was on the show a lot. And, and that's, I mean, that's really, um,
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It's very like emotionally high stakes stuff that you do with your work. And I do think, you know, I do think your read is right, that you that is the reason that it connected with so many people. And so let's talk a little bit about the reaction to your show, because so you had, you know, you launched in the summer of 2024.
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yeah we released the first week of june okay and so before we even get into like how the show took off i mean what were you and you said like that made me laugh you're like i think it's a little delusional about my expectations which i think is like is kind of helpful in some ways because i think if you know like if you know how bad the odds are That your show will be able to monetize.
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I mean, just the numbers-wise, they're very bad. Like, the idea of, like, the money that we spend on our podcast, like, launching an independent podcast and thinking and expecting to make that money back is, like, never. Like, not in a million years will you do that. Full DeLulu. Like, full DeLulu. And yet... Here we are.
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But I think it's like it is good to have a little bit of that delusion going into art. I mean, it's like you also have to like sort of learn your lessons and, you know, be whatever and like get a fuller picture as you go. But like that is actually helpful in the arts. And like it's you just want to like you kind of have to have that energy when you're going in.
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Otherwise, you just like will talk yourself out of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And I'm not saying it's a good idea. By the way, I'm not recommending that someone go spend six figures to make a season of a podcast. Like probably be prepared. Like, yeah, I mean, unless you like, listen, I don't know what your financial situation is listening to this, but like definitely like don't go into debt. Don't quit your job.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
Like don't do anything crazy because like probably the chance aren't like the chance that you and I are sitting here with it. Like, yeah, a million to one.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 12: Talking Shop with Brittani Ard
And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book. And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon. So soon.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
In 1974, a federal judge ruled that Boston's public schools were unconstitutionally segregated. The solution was a controversial experiment in desegregation known as busing, which would take children from the majority white schools and bus them to predominantly black schools and vice versa.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
What followed was a year of upheaval, violence, and fierce protests as Boston became a battleground for the heated national debate over school integration and racism in the North. In the new audiobook, Fiasco, The Battle for Boston, author Leon Nafok tells the story of the movement to desegregate Boston's public schools through busing and the backlash that followed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Find Fiasco, The Battle for Boston by Leon Nafok on Audible, Spotify, or wherever you get your audiobooks. Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon! I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
It is a history show, but told as gossip with all of the juiciest bits. Who was beefing? Who was canoodling? Who was posting saucy love letters? It's so fun and fascinating and just makes history come alive. I'm telling you, I only want history in the form of gossip going forward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at nobody should believe me and if you've ever wondered how did mike become the detective when it came to munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and i know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so i'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me andrea dunlop your humble narrator of this very show i really loved getting to read this book and i'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I have a special treat for you today. The first episode of my absolute favorite new podcast, Our Ancestors Were Messy, from the incredible Nicole Hill, who was also our story editor for season five. This new show covers the gossip, scandals, and pop culture that made headlines in the black newspapers of segregated communities in pre-civil rights America.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Our Ancestors Were Messy was an official selection at the 2024 Tribeca Film Festival, and I just really think you will love it. You can find the show wherever you listen to podcasts, so go check it out and we will include a link in our show notes. Enjoy!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Our Ancestors Were Messy
Just remember that you're the prize always. Always.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Trailer
Season 5 of Nobody Should Believe Me starts January 2nd. Available wherever you get your podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Trailer
Sophie Hartman's family was in the spotlight in 2019 as she fundraised on behalf of her supposedly sick child. But in the spring of 2021, it all came crashing down.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Season 5 Trailer
True Story Media. This season on Nobody Should Believe Me, we're covering a story that happened right in my own backyard.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S03 Ep07 RERUN: Trial of the Century
But if monetary support is not feasible right now, we totally get it. Rating and reviewing the show, leaving comments on Spotify, spreading the word anywhere you talk to people and shopping our sponsors are also great ways to support.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S03 Ep07 RERUN: Trial of the Century
So this is about an attempt to transfer Maya to Nemours, a hospital with a pediatric pain clinic that they felt could better care for her regardless of whether her pain was due to CRPS or conversion disorder. However, Beata wasn't interested in transferring Maya after she found out that they wouldn't perform a specific procedure she was looking for.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Here is Dr. Santana Rojas, the director of pediatric pain management from Nemours, and she's explaining this is from the Law and Crime Network's coverage of the case.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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There were several other attempts to transfer her throughout her stay, but once the DCF case was underway, none were successful. There's also a big question about timing, and Beata and Jack's attempts to leave the hospital before the shelter order. Jack claims that during this period, they threatened to call the police if they tried to leave with Maya against medical advice.
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So I asked our doctor friend about this, and she said there are some situations where a hospital might have to call the police in a situation where it's physically dangerous, for example, for parents to remove a child from the hospital. It's not clear exactly what happened here, which is, I think, why this count remains, but only for, again, that short time period.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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and help me be able to pay the fine folks who I could not do this work without, such as my incredible right-hand and lead producer, Mariah Gossett, our eagle-eyed producer and editor, Greta Stromquist, my fabulous co-host, Dr. Becks, our top-of-the-line sound engineer, Robin Edgar, and last but most certainly not least, our research producer and fact-checker, Aaron Jaiyee,
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So which of these charges might be the most viable? Here's Jonathan.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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What do we know about this jury and how they're taking all of this in? We can't see them for obvious reasons, but we do hear from them in the form of questions that they are permitted to ask each witness.
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I agree with this take, in the beginning at least. So we did record this interview earlier in the trial. As it's worn on, I've become increasingly concerned that at least a few of the jurors are not really getting it.
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You know, I've heard a lot of questions to the tune of, oh, is such and such person an expert in CRPS, which really plays into the idea that you would have to be to identify this abuse. Anyway. Summer is coming. The days are getting longer and warmer, even here in Seattle, you know, except for when it's still raining gross, which it can truly be any time of year.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S03 Ep07 RERUN: Trial of the Century
And with the seasons changing, I want to save my money for summer fun, not my wireless bill. And if you too want to save your money for patio margaritas and vacations, you've got to ditch your overpriced wireless and hop on Mint Mobile for three months of premium wireless service for $15 a month.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number with you along with all of your existing contacts. The coverage and quality are top-notch and you cannot beat the price. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S03 Ep07 RERUN: Trial of the Century
Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at mintmobile.com slash believeme. That's mintmobile.com slash believeme. And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something. First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar. Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me.
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who keeps us clean, cute, and out of court. We'll be back with a new episode next week. And in the meantime, let's go back briefly to 2023. Were we ever so young? Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show, we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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But scheduling appointments with dentists, doctors, therapists can be a real hurdle, which is why I lean on ZocDoc for help. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S03 Ep07 RERUN: Trial of the Century
You can book in-network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty, from mental health to dental health, primary care, and more. You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Choose the time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. So no phone tech. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash nobody to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com slash nobody. ZocDoc.com slash nobody. You can find all of that info at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And remember that supporting our sponsors is a great way to support the show. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of people who've taken the stand in this trial have been medical professionals of some kind. And there is just so much information coming at this jury. I do not envy them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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As we've discussed, Dr. Chopra was on the stand for an entire day, and I don't really honestly know how the jury was able to track everything he said. Importantly, he only saw Maya one time, so mostly he was there talking about CRPS in general. In the film, Dr. Chopra was positioned as this neutral expert who came in and gave this diagnosis.
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Now, he was hired by the Kowalskis, and my suspicion is that he was selected by Beata because of his beliefs about, quote, misdiagnosis of Munchausen by proxy in parents of CRPS patients. And his apparent stance that medical child abuse basically doesn't exist.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And as we've discussed before with experts like Dr. Carol Jenny, just because you can find a doctor to reinforce a belief doesn't mean that it's a legitimate diagnosis.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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And this seems to be really central to the plaintiff's strategy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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to insist that CRPS is not only this exotic thing that for some reason only Dr. Chopra and Dr. Kirkpatrick, both of whom reject the medical consensus around CRPS and ketamine treatments, are qualified to diagnose, and furthermore, that Maya had the most unusual exotic case of it that was somehow both extremely severe and yet so subtle that all of these other doctors misdiagnosed her.
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If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. People believe their eyes. That's something that actually is so central to this whole issue and to people that experience this, is that we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something.
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Every medical argument from the defense seems to be answered with either the pain just comes and goes or that the person asking just doesn't understand CRPS. And as a reminder, Dr. Kirkpatrick is a, quote, expert in CRPS because he says he is.
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There's no board-certified subspecialty in the disease and the subspecialties you would look for, such as neurology, pain management, and anesthesia, he also doesn't have any of those or any board certification at all. As we discussed in the last episode, one of the biggest bombshells regarding this CRPS diagnosis came out in the last two weeks.
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And that is that the diagnosis predated Dr. Kirkpatrick, who was the first person to officially diagnose it. Beata reported to another doctor a week before ever seeing Dr. Kirkpatrick. She reported to this pulmonologist, Dr. Kreisman, that Maya had a diagnosis of CRPS. So what I gleaned from that is that she had had this conversation with her patient's daughter about CRPS.
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We already know about that. It was in the psych eval of Beata. They talked to this person. who had first told her about CRPS and told her about Dr. Kirkpatrick, that she talked to that person, that she decided that was Maya's diagnosis because she was reporting it to other doctors before she ever had any diagnosis of CRPS.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So which of these dueling doctors should we believe, given that they've at this point been divided into sides? And this has been a problem all the way through this case. What they really needed was an expert who could break the tie. And that was almost impossible once Munchausen by proxy was in the mix. Here's Jonathan.
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And what area of expertise, like when you say an expert, because I think then a lot of people are like, well, an expert in CRPS or an expert in like, what are you looking for expertise in specifically?
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The plaintiffs have finished up at this point. So we've heard their arguments other than what is going to come up in cross-examination. And it has been rocky. There have been several calls from both sides for a mistrial. So what happens if a mistrial is called?
Nobody Should Believe Me
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If you questioned everything that everyone told you, you couldn't make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Oof. Okay. So to recap, there are a total of five doctors who've testified on Maya's behalf. You have Dr. Kirkpatrick, Dr. Chopra, Dr. Cantu, who is the doctor who provided the ketamine coma treatment in Mexico, as well as Dr. Wassner, her pediatrician, and Dr. Spiegel, who is a neurologist who prescribed Maya these hyperbaric oxygen tank treatments for
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that she was receiving at the same time that she was getting the high-dose ketamine infusions. And, of course, there is Dr. Hanna, who is the doctor who provided the ketamine. Given that he saw Maya 55 times in the year leading up to her Johns Hopkins stay and was the doctor who referred her to Johns Hopkins for her stomach pain, his absence at this trial has been notable.
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However, he did give a deposition, which the defense played in court. i.e. Johns Hopkins played this in court. And honestly, as soon as they did, I could see why maybe the plaintiff didn't call him. His deposition was a little all over the place, but he did say that he had maxed out the dosage he was willing to give Maya.
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And just as a reminder, this dosage is, as we've heard from various doctors throughout the trial, 25 to 50 times higher than any ketamine dosage they've ever seen. And Dr. Hanna also said that was his ceiling and he couldn't do any more for this child at that time.
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Two of the doctors who have done a full medical record review for this case and have testified for the defense also said that Dr. Hanna's monitoring at his clinic was substandard to say the least.
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Now, of the more than three dozen doctors who evaluated Maya during this time period, several other doctors with expertise in CRPS and pediatric pain did not think that her systems were at all consistent with CRPS. First one we heard from was a doctor, Gaddy Revivo, who works with a pain clinic that works closely with Laurie Children's, where Maya spent some time.
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So this is a piece of his testimony from Law and Crime Network's coverage.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
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The second person we heard from was Dr. Elliott, who is the anesthesiologist from Johns Hopkins. He testified on October 23rd.
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So does Maya have CRPS or not? We will never know for sure. But given what we do know, I think most likely she does not. Of all of the medical professionals who may or may not have been qualified to diagnose CRPS, Beata, smart as she was, was not one of them. And this diagnosis appears to have originated with her.
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It's worth mentioning that the defense team is not moving on the assumption that she didn't have CRPS, partly because the treatment for CRPS and conversion disorder, which is what they believe she did have, is the same. Here's Dr. Elliott explaining this, and this clip is from Law and Crime Network.
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You know, I really sense how careful the majority of the doctors on the defense side are. They're really avoiding inflammatory language. They seem to be taking pains not to speak ill of Beata or Maya. There was one doctor, however, who did not dance around his conclusion. We heard a piece of his affidavit in our episode about Beata's death.
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So this is Dr. Elliot Crane from Stanford, and this clip is from the Law and Crime Network's coverage.
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So there was so much to Dr. Crane's testimony, but just to kind of share some of the highlights, what I found most interesting about his testimony, you know, he talked about the fact that there are actually uses for ketamine that are legitimate with childhood CRPS in cases where a child has refractory pain. So that's pain that has been resistant to any other kinds of treatments.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. If monetary support is not an option, rating and reviewing always helps, as does telling friends about the show on social media or wherever you talk to people.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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However, he did say that if you're doing something like a ketamine infusion, number one, he uses ketamine a very low dose, so 1 25th of what Dr. Hanna was ultimately using on Maya, and that this kind of treatment should be done only in a hospital setting where there's proper monitoring. He also described ketamine withdrawals.
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And as he was talking through this part, this was really fascinating because the plaintiff has talked about ketamine as though it's kind of no big deal, like that this was a perfectly... you know, safe medication that there was no side effects from.
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And hearing him talk about ketamine withdrawals and then looking at some of Maya's behaviors when she arrived at the hospital, where she was demanding anesthesia and really acting out, like she was swearing at people, she was yelling. It really sounded similar to what he was describing when he talked about ketamine withdrawals. And that description really got me.
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He also offered his expert opinion in why Maya does not have CRPS and talked about some of her alleged symptoms, some of which were shown in photos by the plaintiff's side of, quote, lesions, which he agreed with Dr. Revivo that the lesion they showed was a scratch, and Maya's alleged dystonia. Now, the dystonia is something that has come up a lot. It came up in the film.
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It came up in the court case. And... He explained that dystonia basically, and this was one of my questions throughout this, dystonia does not come and go like during the course of a day. So if Maya had dystonia in her feet, they would be frozen in that position for a period of time.
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They wouldn't be dystonic and then in the anatomically correct position on and off throughout the day, which is what All of these providers have observed about her. He also looked at this photo of Maya when she was in a coma in Mexico that was taken by Beata with her feet turned in.
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This was used as evidence that she was not faking the cystonia, that she really had her feet frozen in this position. But Dr. Crane explained that when children are under anesthesia, their feet either splay out or turn in, and hers turned in. So that's just what kids' feet look like when they're under anesthesia. They also asked him the question of whether he had found with his patients.
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And again, you know, he ran this pain clinic that was the only one of its kind on the West Coast. So he really was a destination for parents whose children had CRPS. He said they would come from all over the world to see him.
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And they asked him if he had seen the same pattern that Dr. Hanna, Dr. Kirkpatrick, and Dr. Chopra had reported, that they had all said that they are always seeing their parents of CRPS children being falsely accused of Munchausen by proxy. They asked him about this, and he said, absolutely not, no connection. So...
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To my mind, that tells us something about the clientele for those other doctors, not about CRPS parents. And Dr. Crane really painted a very different picture of the prognosis for childhood CRPS than the experts who had testified for the plaintiff.
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In particular, Dr. Chopra, who really painted this picture of, you know, this being a lifelong condition where Maya was always going to be in horrific pain. And obviously, part of the thing that they're asking for in this damages question is money for ketamine to treat Maya's condition, money for the full-time care that she might eventually need.
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So here is what Dr. Crane said about the prognosis for childhood CRPS in his experience. This is from Law and Crime Network's coverage.
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All in all, we've heard from about a dozen medical professionals who've testified on behalf of the defense so far. And considering that these people are from numerous different institutions, they paint a remarkably consistent picture of Maya. They've said that she was distractible from her pain, i.e.
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that she would be screaming in pain one moment, but that she could answer questions if you asked her. They've said that she showed much more functionality than she reported. So if you'd ask her, for instance, if she could move her hands,
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She would say no, but then if you would observe her while she wasn't being asked, they would see her moving her hands, and they've reported that she had no physiological signs of pain. The other consistent thing that we've heard from this provider is that Beata's presence had a negative effect on both Maya's perception of her pain and her behavior.
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So what do you do when you have all of these doctors who are disagreeing with each other and they have had varying levels of communication with one another? Mostly, they've had no communication with each other. So what do you do if there's a suspicion of abuse in this case?
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Ideally, you would bring in an experienced child abuse pediatrician to look at the whole picture, which is exactly what happened. And on October 26th, we finally heard from the woman who's been blamed by the Kowalski team for... just about everything. This is a clip from the Netflix film, Take Care of Maya.
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and bringing Sally Smith down, bringing the system down. Dr. Sally Smith arrived in the courtroom, and when she took the stand, she went about pulling these enormous binders out of her bag and stacking them next to her mic. Unlike Dr. Kirkpatrick, who famously left his notes in the hotel room, it would appear that Sally Smith did not.
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So she looked a bit shaken up to begin with, and this is unsurprising since I've heard numerous reports of protesters being outside, one of whom apparently confronted her right before she came in. Listening to Dr. Sally Smith describe what she does in her role as the head of the CPT—so that's Child Protection Team—
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was really fascinating and it really drove home for me what a difficult job this is. You know, she is looking day after day at the worst part of humanity. She's looking at people who've done horrible things potentially to their children. And... You know, also, I think the thing that never comes up is that she's looked at over 3,000 cases in her career by her estimation.
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And many of those were probably not abuse. And she helped those parents not have to go through a DCF investigation. And that's just something that never gets talked about because those parents might not even have known anything. that she was looking at their records. So anyway, it was very satisfying to watch her shut down one by one, these claims that have been made about her in this case.
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To say that the Kowalski versus Johns Hopkins trial has been dominating my life for the past seven weeks is an understatement. In addition to continuing to parse through just these like thousands of pages of documents from the past six years of legal back and forth that are in the public record.
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So this is Jack describing his interaction with her in the Netflix film.
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She came in and she acted like a regular doctor that works for the hospital.
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If they would have known who she was, we would have never spoken to her. Here is Dr. Smith describing the meeting that actually took place. And this is from Law and Crime Network's coverage.
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Covering a case that is unfolding in real time is can be a challenge and we want to make sure we are as accurate and precise as humanly possible. And frankly, that takes time and resources. I could not ask for a better team than the one I have on this show, but we are an independent production and I would rather be late with an episode than miss something important.
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So interestingly, the meeting with Jack appears to have happened after she took the history from Beata, which we know that Beata told Jack about because there was an email to that effect. So it doesn't really seem plausible to me that Jack didn't know who she was. But, you know, under those circumstances, he's stressed out.
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I could see why he might mistake her for a doctor that worked for the hospital. He wouldn't have necessarily known what she looked like. But at the same time, I've never been clear on what Jack thinks would have been different if he hadn't talked to Dr. Sally Smith. Anyway, there was a lot of back and forth about whether Dr. Sally Smith was in any way a treating physician.
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I've been watching almost all of the testimony, which has been airing live on Law and Crime's YouTube channel. So big thanks to those guys for putting that out. It's airing a couple other places as well. But if you are listening on Apple subscriptions and Patreon, you know that the Florida doctor friend that we spoke to earlier this season has died. gone right down this rabbit hole with me.
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And she said that she did have ongoing conversations with the doctors, but did not do anything like making orders or see a Meyer in rounds or anything like that. So listen, my overall takeaway on this point is that maybe there is some murkiness around CPT, DCF, Department of Health, and the doctors in this case. But that is a systems problem, not a Dr. Sally Smith problem.
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So she also shut down that HIPAA claim, and she cited a specific exception to it. Doctors who are performing her role can look at records if someone has a concern about abuse, which is what happened in this case. Some of the most compelling moments happened during Gregory Anderson, that is, again, the lead attorney for the Kowalskis, cross on the proffer.
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So the proffer, I am not a lawyer, but in my understanding, this is a place where they are collecting evidence that the jury does not see, but that may be used in the appeals process or is being collected for the record. So the jury was not in the room when some of these things were being said, sadly.
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So right away, they addressed one of the biggest criticisms about Dr. Smith, that she did not take Dr. Kirkpatrick seriously enough. Here, Gregory Anderson asks Dr. Sally Smith about this. This audio is from the Law and Crime Network.
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She also finally addressed something that has been driving me nuts. And this is the conflagration between factitious disorder imposed on another and medical child abuse.
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So thankfully, I'm not completely alone here. And also, shout out to the Reddit crowd. I've seen some really incredible insights from doctors, lawyers, and just people that are watching this trial. And honestly, you guys give me hope for the social media discourse. You know, for the past month and a half, I feel like my life has been really bifurcated in this weird way.
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Interestingly, Anderson also lied to her during this back and forth. He said that there were no other doctors who testified and said that Maya didn't have CRPS. And that was wild to hear him say because we have just watched a number of extremely qualified doctors do exactly that.
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So Dr. Sally Smith was very clear on two points, that she was the person in the situation most qualified to diagnose medical child abuse and that there was very clear evidence of it in this case. And she addressed these other providers who've been brought by the plaintiff, the folks who supported the CRPS diagnosis.
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And then there was this memorable exchange.
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Like in the outside world, I know that people mostly kind of just have a passing notion that this trial is happening. You know, maybe they saw the movie, they've seen a few headlines. But for those of us who are in the medical child abuse world, I mean, this is like OJ Simpson level big. This trial is going to have a massive impact on our work going forward.
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Nobody should believe me is proud to partner this month with the American civil liberties union with more than 1.1 million members, 500 staff attorneys, thousands of volunteer attorneys and offices throughout the nation. The ACLU is at the forefront of fighting government abuse and defending the freedoms. We all hold dear freedoms of speech and religion, a woman's right to an abortion.
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the right to due process, citizens' rights to privacy, and much more. In the two months since Donald Trump took office, the ACLU has filed over 20 lawsuits to protect people from the administration's abuse of power and attempts to strip away our most fundamental rights. And right now, they are at the forefront of protecting immigrants' rights.
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The ACLU sued to stop Trump's attacks on birthright citizenship, to end the deportation of immigrants to Guantanamo Bay, and they're providing legal counsel to those currently detained there. They also block him from using an archaic wartime law, the Alien Enemies Act from 1798, to arbitrarily deport immigrants and deprive them of due process.
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The ACLU is also partnering with the legal teams fighting to free Mahmoud Khalil and Rumesa Ozturk who were targeted by ICE for exercising their legally protected rights to free speech and political dissent. The ACLU is fighting for all of us. And with so much on their plate, they could really use your support. So head to aclu.org backslash action at the link in our show notes.
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You can donate to help the cause as well as find volunteer opportunities and actions you can take in just minutes to help defend the country we all love. This ad was provided pro bono. To be frank, as we've talked about in the last episode, the story the plaintiff is telling is difficult to make sense of.
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In their version, Maya was a promising girl on track to take over the world before Johns Hopkins All Children's ripped her from her parents, denied her her necessary treatment for her condition, i.e. the high-dose ketamine infusions, and this cost her mother her life because they had falsely accused Beata of medical child abuse.
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None of the records, including those from the doctors who testified for the plaintiffs, bear this out. No one who treated Maya in the lead-up to this hospitalization said she was getting any better, only worse. But as demonstrated by the glossy People magazine and New York magazine spreads and the Netflix film, for what this version lacks in factual basis, it makes up for an emotional punch.
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And it appears that the plaintiff's strategy is just that. All heartstrings, no skepticism. Because of this, we've seen a lot of videos and photos of the family, but they might not turn out to have the effect the plaintiffs had hoped. Here's Jonathan Leach talking about that.
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So what has been going on down there in that nondescript little Florida courtroom where I've been spending so much of my mental time? As this episode airs, we may be days away from a verdict in this case, and you can bet that we will update you as soon as that happens.
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Yeah, the visuals of Maya and I watched the bulk of that video that's on Director Kirkpatrick's website, which is that's one of the things he does is his research is videotapes these sessions with clients. And yeah, it's hard to sort of conceive of how that's a child in excruciating pain. And indeed, even the footage of her from Johns Hopkins that they included in the Netflix film is.
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She looks bored. I mean, she doesn't look like she's in excruciating pain. And, of course, that lines up with all of the reports from the doctors during that admission and several others before it.
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And I think it's, you know, it's really interesting to think about the visual of Maya herself sitting in the courtroom because I think on the one hand, you know, she's this... beautiful, sad, young girl. I think that has its sort of cultural power all its own. But then she's looked a bit unwell to me the last few days.
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And I worry very much about the toll that this is taking on her and her brother. But I mean, in general, she looks...
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healthy and she's clearly walking around and I think that the plaintiff is trying to make this case that you know specifically in terms of the medical malpractice claim that the treatment that she received during her stay at Johns Hopkins actually set her back when in fact she was never given ketamine again you know after a little bit that they gave her in the in the PICU and then she's never received ketamine treatment since and
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the overall trajectory of her health has been has improved a hundredfold since since that that time before the hospital where she was confined to a wheelchair out of school you know going to these ketamine treatments every week getting all this hyperbaric oxygen things and just really like in doctor's appointments all the time right i want to touch on another example of a visual that i think would be very helpful for on a horizontal timeline you know if one entry is
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But let's begin with the narratives that have been laid out by the opposing sides in the case, which we saw most distinctly in their opening statements. This is the lawyer's chance to tell the jury not what the evidence is specifically, but what the evidence will show them. So it's like the story of the case through their eyes.
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It's hard to remember sometimes that it's actually the hospital that's on trial rather than Beata Kowalski because, of course, whether or not she'd been committing medical child abuse colors absolutely everything about this case.
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A few days into the defense, the judge issued an order that really restricted how much the defense could talk about Munchausen by proxy and medical child abuse going forward. Though, of course, the plaintiff had had witness after witness on the stand talking about, quote, false allegations, despite that count being dismissed already.
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And they made the argument over and over again that this wasn't Munchausen by proxy. This was CRPS, as though those two things are mutually exclusive. And of course, there's also the fact that they don't seem to believe that Munchausen by proxy is even real. So we had talked about this Dober motion earlier on, and here is Jonathan breaking that down with us.
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It's really hard not to feel Beata's presence looming in this courtroom. It's the central question that most people are duking it out about online. You know, was she a martyr or a monster? Technically, of course, it doesn't matter for these specific counts, but also it deeply does.
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Here is the lead attorney for Jack Kowalski, Gregory Anderson, and this is from Court TV.
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Depending on which side of the dichotomy you fall, you either think Johns Hopkins was being rightfully protective of Maya or senselessly cruel to Beata. And this also colors the view of Beata's death, Was she an innocent mom who believed that ending her own life might save her daughter? Or was she an abuser who feared that her lies were about to be exposed?
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We've heard snippets of her throughout the trial, from doctor's notes, from recordings, and from the notes she left behind upon her death. But this week, we got a much more intimate and disturbing look into Beata's mind via a number of emails that she had written to herself. These were drafts, they believe, of the blog that she maintained that was written in Maya's voice.
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These letters chronicle the ketamine coma that Maya underwent in November of 2015, which the plaintiff has taken great pains to paint as not so terribly serious of a procedure. So we are going to have my producer, Tina, read us a bit from these letters. This is from the first batch.
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So basically, Maya has CRPS, Johns Hopkins missed the diagnosis, and according to Anderson, they knew it and proceeded anyway, giving her the wrong treatment and kidnapping her from her family. And these decisions cost Beata her life.
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True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. You may notice that this episode is coming a day later than usual, and also that it's not the episode you were expecting. So we will be continuing our coverage of the Rady Children's lawsuit next week, but we ended up needing to re-record some things for this episode, so that is why it will be a little bit late.
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So this is the procedure that the plaintiff has painted as being of no real risk to Maya. And this business about the child being the youngest, most rare, most unique pediatric case of something to have ever existed, this is a huge red flag. There are so many parallels in this to the Mary Welch case, which was the case, if you'll remember, that we discussed in season one.
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So in this, her son had allegedly this extremely rare condition. In his case, it was something called normal pressure hydrocephalus, which is a condition where fluid builds up on the brain. And Mary also talked to friends about how the medical community was, quote, learning so much from his case.
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She also insisted that he needed the most invasive treatment, a brain shunt in his case, despite the fact that many doctors told her that he did not need it. And the only doctors that Mary trusted were the ones who gave her what she wanted. So I have been watching the online conversations about this case, and there was a huge shift once these letters became public.
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Many people were horrified by these. Obviously, the procedure itself and just the number of heavy-duty medications Maya was on is harrowing to read about. Then there's the fact that she is writing this blog in Maya's voice, which seemed pretty off to a lot of people. And I don't know how else to describe the tone of these letters other than cheerful.
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So here is my producer Tina reading from another one of these letters.
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So if you've seen the film, you get the gist of the argument that they're making. This is a really emotional story. You know, during the opening statements, they play this 911 call. We played a little bit of it on our show. I honestly can barely listen to the whole thing. You can hear Maya's little brother, Kyle, screaming in the background.
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Throughout the plaintiff's arguments, there was a lot of talk about how safe ketamine is, how it has no withdrawal symptoms, how these treatments never really put Maya in any danger, and how Maya was, as one of the plaintiff witnesses testified, a, quote, freight train headed to college before Johns Hopkins permanently injured her by taking her off of the ketamine, which she has remained off ever since.
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The plaintiff has also framed this ketamine coma similarly. It didn't really have a 50% chance of death. That was just the warning that Dr. Cantu had to give the parents for some reason. But reading Beata's accounts of these five days was chilling. To picture her typing these out as she sat at her daughter's bedside, it just sticks with you.
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These letters also fit in with the overall picture that Beata seemed to be painting of her daughter's condition. In her request to have her labeled as terminal, in her multiple mentions of hospice, and quote, wanting to go to heaven. And even in her ending note, take care of Maya, but don't let her suffer. No child deserves that.
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She was not depicting a freight train headed to college, but a freight train headed off a cliff. Whatever you think about her, there's no holding Beata to account now. It's everyone else who's left behind who has to pay the price. And that goes far beyond Johns Hopkins and the Kowalski family. The verdict in this case could be days away at this point.
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So likely the next episode that you will hear will be about that verdict. We're also going to talk in a coming episode much more about Maya Kowalski's testimony because however this verdict plays out, this has really defined her young life and it will have reverberations for the rest of it. That's next time on Nobody Should Believe Me. Nobody Should Believe Me is a production of Large Media.
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Our senior producer is Tina Knoll and our editor is Kareem Kiltow.
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You know, and they're playing this in court while Jack Kowalski is sitting front and center with both of his children. It's really... You know, I mean, it's a really emotional moment. Now, of course, Johns Hopkins has a whole different take on what the facts are going to show. Here's Howard Hunter. He's lead attorney for Johns Hopkins All Children's, and this is his opening statement on Court TV.
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so today we're sharing a very on-theme rerun from season three discussing the goings-on of the kowalski v johns hopkins trial right before the verdict came in we have been covering this case for almost two years now on both the main feed and the patreon and there are many parallels between this case and the Rainey Children's lawsuit.
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So whose version of events will prevail? And what have we learned since this trial started? Today, we're going to talk about what charges are still on the table, who's testified so far, and some of the bombshells that have come out during trial. And we brought in a guest to help give us an expert perspective on this trial.
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So Jonathan is a fellow member of the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by Proxy Committee. So he's deeply knowledgeable about a variety of the issues that have come into play in this case.
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So a trial consultant is an expert who comes in and his bottom line role is to really help a litigant, so party in a lawsuit or a criminal matter, communicate the case as effectively as possible to the jury.
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The central cast of lawyers in this trial, so you've got Nick Whitney and Gregory Anderson on the Kowalski side, Howard Hunter, Ethan Shapiro, and Patricia Crowles on the Johns Hopkins side. These guys have taken on the contours of, like, reality television stars for me. You know, each side has their bulldog, so that's Anderson and Hunter, respectively.
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And then each side has their softer touch, which is Whitney and Shapiro. And then there is Judge Hunter Carroll, who is the Andy Cohen of this very messy Housewives franchise. It's been actually really interesting to see these people interacting after having read so much about them, reading all of these depositions, reading all of these motions.
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And you can see as they're interacting with each other, these sort of flares of animus, these bits of camaraderie. They have been at this for six years and it really shows. And this trial, it's grueling. Here's Jonathan.
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And then you have the six members of the jury, the people who are actually going to decide this thing. And they are sort of sitting off camera like a great chorus. And being on a jury like this is no joke.
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I've also made all of the subscriber episodes about the Kowalski trial available on the free tier of Patreon this month if you want to go and do a super deep dive. We have about a billion episodes about this trial.
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And as to what the plaintiff wants, according to Jonathan, more or less the opposite.
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There's also a ton of other exclusive subscriber content available there and on Apple Podcasts, including this month our conversation about Elizabeth Finch and the anatomy of lies on Peacock, And if you subscribe on either of those places, you will get all eight episodes of season six on the launch date, June 19th. Subscribing is the best way to support the show.
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So what is the jury being asked to decide on at this point? The charges have been narrowed over the six years that this lawsuit has dragged on as the judge has issued what are called directed verdicts. Here are the current charges as they stand from the eighth amendment to the original complaint.
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There is a count of false imprisonment, though this has been narrowed considerably to the days between the admission to Johns Hopkins and the DCF order coming down, as it's been determined already that this original call was made in good faith. Battery is still in, but also considerably narrowed.
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Now it is only regarding the incident involving the photographs that were taken of Maya before her court appearance. there is medical malpractice. For this, they have to prove that Johns Hopkins violated the standard of care while Maya was with them. There is negligent hiring and supervision and training of Kathy Beattie and a separate charge for all of the doctors at Johns Hopkins.
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There's a charge of fraudulent concealment. This has to do with a video allegedly taken while Maya was in the EEG room. This is a room where they do certain types of testing. And the plaintiff claims this video contains exculpatory evidence that was allegedly kept from them. Allegedly. There is one count remaining for the insurance fraud.
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This is honestly the most confusing to me because parts of it have been taken out. Parts of it remain. Big question mark about this one. And there's a count for negligent infliction of emotional distress and a separate count for intentional infliction of emotional distress. So these have both been somewhat narrowed.
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And these are the counts related to Beata's death and its effects on the family and Maya's PTSD from her time in the hospital. This list has been cut down from the original 20 counts. That list included things like false reporting, civil conspiracy, malicious prosecution, and wrongful death. So you can see why this has taken six years. And what about those false imprisonment claims?
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This has been central to the Kowalski narrative about Johns Hopkins All Children's, who claim that they kept Maya there to punish Beata and to be able to bill their insurance for a condition that they didn't believe she had. But what we now know is that, in fact, Johns Hopkins was not trying to keep her there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
So stay fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lume.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me. And if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases, you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
And I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there, so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me, Andrea Dunlop, your humble narrator of this very show. I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you. If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap. Library sales are also extremely important for books. So putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes. And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes. These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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Well, friends, it's 2025. It's here. This year is going to be, well, one thing it won't be is boring. And that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon.
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I co-authored this book with friend and beloved contributor of this show, Detective Mike Weber, about three of the most impactful cases of his career. Even if you are one of the OG-est of OG listeners to this show, I promise you are going to learn so many new and shocking details about the three cases we cover.
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We just go into so much more depth on these stories, and you're also going to learn a ton about Mike's story. Now, I know y'all love Detective
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Mike because he gets his very own fan mail here at Nobody Should Believe Me and if you've ever wondered how did Mike become the detective when it came to Munchausen by proxy cases you are going to learn all about his origin story in this book and I know we've got many audiobook listeners out there so I'm very excited to share with you the audiobook is read by me Andrea Dunlop your humble narrator of this very show I really loved getting to read this book and I'm so excited to share this with you
Nobody Should Believe Me
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If you are able to pre-order the book, doing so will really help us out. It will signal to our publisher that there is excitement about the book, and it will also give us a shot at that all-important bestseller list. And of course, if that's simply not in the budget right now, we get it. Books are not cheap.
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It is very well researched and thoughtful, and Cilicia is just such a good storyteller. So Cilicia chose today's episode specifically for you, and you can listen to the rest of the two seasons of True Crime wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we'll include a link in our show notes. Enjoy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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Library sales are also extremely important for books, so putting in a request at your local library is another way that you can help. So you can pre-order the book right now in all formats at the link in our show notes at And if you are in Seattle or Fort Worth, Mike and I are doing live events the week of launch, which you can also find more information about at the link in our show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
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These events will be free to attend, but please do RSVP so that we can plan accordingly. See you out there.
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True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and today we are sharing an episode of a podcast I think you will love, Truer Crime with Cilicia Stanton. This is one of my favorite true crime shows because it does so much more than just rehash the details of a crime. It gets into all of the complex social and cultural factors that surround cases.
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Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here,
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You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much. Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com, and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. Well, friends, it's 2025.
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I'm a mom on the go in my 40s. I'm writing books. I'm making this show. I'm going down internet rabbit holes. And given the fact that mornings with a six and a two year old are a complete opera of chaos, I do not have a lot of time to think about what to wear. I want things to be simple and I want them to be really nice. which is why at least half of my wardrobe these days is from Quince.
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Real talk, I love this brand so much, and I know so many people who are fans. My friend April loves this brand. My producer Mariah loves it. My husband, my mom, they're all super into Quince. And you can pretty much build a complete wardrobe from Quince with their luxury essentials at affordable prices.
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Quince offers a range of high-quality items at prices within reach, like their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start at $50.00, They're washable silk tops, which I love for travel, dresses, organic cotton sweaters, and even 14 karat gold jewelry. All of the items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.
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And you can feel great about shopping with Quince because they only work with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. So give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com slash believe for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash believe to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash believe. We'll include that information at the link in our show notes. And remember that shopping with our sponsors is a great way to support the show.
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As we get into spring and summer, whether you're going on hikes, walking dogs, or just running after your children who definitely do not want to come inside while the sun is still up, you are going to get sweaty. And that's why you need Lume deodorant.
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If you've listened to our recent Season 5 Mailbag episode, you will know that we ended up doing an impromptu ad for Lume because that is how much not only I, but the whole Nobody Should Believe Me team loves this product. And most of the team actually lives in Texas, so you know their deodorant is working extra hard.
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Lume was created by an OBGYN who saw firsthand how normal BO was being misdiagnosed and mistreated. And Lume goes beyond a simple swipe to the pits. They have the number one whole body deodorant on the market because let's face it, other stuff can also get stinky. Lume's starter pack is perfect for new customers.
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It comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, and two free products of your choice. like their mini body wash or deodorant wipes, which are my personal favorite. And it includes free shipping. As a special offer for listeners, new customers get 15% off all Lumi products with our exclusive code.
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And if you combine this 15% with the already discounted starter pack, that equals over 40% off their starter pack. So use the code NOBODY for 15% off your first purchase at LumeDeodorant.com. That's code NOBODY at L-U-M-E-D-E-O-D-O-R-A-N-T.com. And please support the show by telling them that we sent you. All that info is at the link in the show notes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: Truer Crime
It's here. This year is going to be... Well, one thing it won't be is boring, and that's about the only prediction I'm going to make right now. But one piece of news that I am excited to share is that the wait for my new book, The Mother Next Door, is almost over. It is coming at you on February 4th from St. Martin's Press. So soon!