Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 09: Jesika Jones Part 4 with Detective Mike Weber
Thu, 19 Dec 2024
In the final part of our miniseries covering the Jesika Jones case, Andrea is once again joined by Detective Mike Weber, who shares the series of events from Jesika’s first bond violation through to her 60 year sentencing, from his perspective as law enforcement. He shares the differences in how seriously child abuse cases are taken when there’s a male vs female perpetrator, and the politics behind trying Medical Child Abuse cases in court. Andrea and Mike wrap up their conversation by talking about the systemic changes that need to happen, not only to protect kids from this abuse, but also to help families after the damage has been done. *** Links/Resources: Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What is the final part of the Jesika Jones case about?
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea. I hope everyone is enjoying their holidays. Shout out to my fellow school-age parents out there. I hope you are surviving the madness. The Nobody Should Believe Me team has had our noses to the grindstone this week in order to bring you all eight episodes of season five on January 2nd.
Shout out to my incredible producer, Mariah Gossett, who has been with me for almost a year now and has just been a true gift from the universe and is working so hard to keep us on track. Mariah, what would I do without you? Be insane, that's what. Truly just so grateful for my whole team.
A reminder that if you want to listen to the whole season on January 2nd, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon and you will get them delivered to you like a beautiful
a new year's gift on that day in the meantime we have our final segment on the jessica jones case today we're back on with our pal detective mike weber who is going to walk us through what happened in court in the aftermath of this case as always we would love to hear your thoughts and what you might like us to cover on future case files episodes you can hit us up at hello at nobody should believe me.com or leave us a comment on spotify that is a fun new feature over there
Also, if you have a moment, rating and reviewing on Spotify and Apple is a very big help. Thank you so much for supporting the show this year. We are able to keep doing this work because of you. So now on with the show. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold.
The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP. And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audio book as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us again, Mike.
So we are just rounding out our conversation today on the Jessica Jones case, which you walked us through in the first episode of this podcast. piece of the series. And then last time we spoke to Derek Jones, who is the father of the children in the case, or the father of a couple of the children in the case.
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Chapter 2: What happened after Jesika's first bond violation?
There ended up being a number of victims in this case, which was an interesting piece of it. So I thought we would just kind of pick up today with talking through, you know, Derek talked us through some of what happened in sort of the court proceedings, but I wanted to get that from your perspective of, you know, how this sort of made its way through the system.
You know, where we left off last time was March of 2023 when she had had her first bond violation. So can you kind of pick up the story there?
Right. And the March 23, 2023 bond violation. It was technically a bomb violation, but it was very bad. I mean, she left, according to the boyfriend, after five minutes. I should have talked to the ex-wife. Then I would have gotten a lot more information of the new boyfriend, to be clear. But after that, things rocked along until March of 2024.
And in March of 2024, I didn't have to reach out to that boyfriend's ex-wife because she reached out to me. And she informed me that, no, she's still living with him. He didn't take your warning. I obviously warned him. I told him to fill him in on her charges and everything. He chose to believe her. And he left her around the kids. And the ex-wife told me that she...
Jessica Jones was presenting nursing badges to schools when she went. She would go to the children's play. She was always in contact with the kids. She was living with them at the house with the children. And she had just recently found the article on her and freaked out.
So was this case, when you said the article on her, was this case covered in like the Fort Worth Star-Telegram?
Yes, her initial arrest was covered in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and maybe a couple other outlets. But so she had seen the article, did the right thing as a parent and said, you're not going to be around my kids as long as that lady's in your house. She ended visitation against court orders. But I told her, you know, if you need an attorney, if he files on you, have him contact me.
I can testify this is the right thing to do. And then I began working on a warrant for her arrest for bond violations. You know, I had a recorded interview with her. She didn't have any communications, not a lot of communications with dad about it. She had a couple.
Can we just back up for a second? Can you tell me about your conversation with the boyfriend in question? I mean, I'm trying to think about getting a call like that as a parent. I would be... extremely alarmed, like I would take that really seriously. I mean, these are serious charges that she'd been arrested for and was, so at this point she's awaiting trial. Is that right?
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Chapter 3: How do gender biases affect child abuse cases?
And it's like it's not like just some like system that you throw things into. I mean, there are systemic issues. We've talked about those, too. But like ultimately, like it is like a person that's sitting down there and making that decision. And it's like, what do you think is going to happen to these children going forward? Right. Like, do you not care? Do you not understand?
Do you like, is it just like a piece of paper on your desk? Like, how do you work a job like that? I mean, I understand there must be a job that probably does in some ways numb you out to some of those things. And there probably is some like compassion fatigue in a job like that, I would imagine.
But like, you just sort of think like, how could you not even try when you know that a kid's life is at risk? It does not compute for me, Mike. It just does not. It never will. And I wish I could get any of them to talk to me and like, you give me the justification. I wish someone would give me the justification for why they make that decision.
A lot of times the justification is money and resources. They don't have the resources to try a case. It's going to be this complicated to pay experts, to bring in a bunch of witnesses. They don't know how, right? They don't have a template for it. It's never been done. The thing is, it has been done in Tarrant County, which frustrates me. But in other jurisdictions, it hasn't been done.
I just did a training for the Alaska Child Advocacy Center statewide conference, and they have no criminal case law on this abuse. And attorneys are extremely hesitant— to create criminal case law. It takes someone who is very secure in their job, knows they're not going to be fired for losing the case, which is a real thing at my DA's office, has been since 2015.
And in fairness to the new DA, that culture was cultivated over eight years, where you could be fired if you lost the case, and they're having to go through and try to eradicate that culture. That's hard to do once that sets in with someone. Right? So there's a lot of human nature involved in these cases.
Do I want to do this much work for a little outcome and maybe even a loss and spend this much money? Am I allocating the county's money correctly? And what they never consider in that equation is this child will be abused the entirety of their childhood if they make it out of their childhood and they're not killed.
It can be so daunting to make an appointment for something. First, you have to call, then they call you back, inevitably right as your six-year-old absolutely needs to ask you a next essential question. And then you have to coordinate your hot mess of a calendar.
Okay, parts of that example were very specific to me, but scheduling appointments with dentists, doctors, therapists can be a real hurdle, which is why I lean on ZocDoc for help. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high-quality in-network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment.
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Chapter 4: What systemic changes are needed to protect children?
Yeah, ha, ha, ha, right? When she's already laid out a plan to kidnap her. And so I, you know, I talked to both dad and the 12-year-old. That day, I got a warrant for her arrest for violating bond conditions again, because it was the second time it was now bumped up to a third-degree felony. And This is language I should never have to put in a warrant.
But I put it in there because I wanted someone held accountable if she bonded out again. And around the last paragraph of that warrant, I put in there that if she is allowed to bond out of jail again, she will be a continued threat to the children of Tarrant County, Texas. And it just goes to show that if you're an attractive female in this abuse,
I don't even think you have to be attractive at this point. It's very easy to get away with continuing this abuse.
Just sort of like a benign looking woman even, right? Like just, you just look like a normal lady. Like as long as you don't look for some reason, you know, like Eileen Wuornos or something. Right, true.
You say in your podcast all the time people believe their eyes, and they do. And, you know, female beauty is also a powerful tool for women in a courtroom setting or in a criminal setting also. It shouldn't be. I don't think it should be, but it is, and it's just a fact of life.
I think it's worth noting because it's sort of something that everyone involved in these cases needs to correct for, right? Like, no one is not subject to the culture we live in, the biases we may have. It doesn't make you a horrible misogynist or a racist or whatever. It's just that we have to recognize that there are, you know, that—
All of the representations we've seen in the media for our whole lives, like these things all infect our brains. Right. And it's not a personal failing that they infect our brains. It's something that we need to recognize and correct for. And as you said, like, look at the evidence, look at what the story, the evidence is telling you, you know, and it is it's like I sympathize with.
This second dad, not so much the first dad that you were talking about in the bond conditions who, you know, really sounds like he believed her hook, line, and sinker. But, like, yeah, you meet someone on a dating app. They look normal, seem normal. At most, you know, a lot of times people report, oh, something seemed off.
But unless you've been around that person for a long time and seen that pattern – You're not just going to like sitting in a room with them be like, ooh, that person's really creepy. Some of them, sure. Like I think Brittany Phillips was a little bit on that. People are different. These defenders are different. But I think like they have often the capacity to seem perfectly normal. So it's like –
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Chapter 5: Why do some legal decisions seem baffling in child abuse cases?
So she goes in and she has that and she was medicating her after that. And she asked that if she could stay with her, you know, and take care of her after that. Um, and yeah, so, uh, she indicated that she would feel weird and, and tired after Jessica medicated her and Jessica had access to all sorts of medicines. She went through and actually stole some of dad's medication. Um, it's my opinion.
I think she has a pill problem herself. Um, dad, that dad said, you know, one of the first things she did is go through and reorganize his medicine cabinet. Um, Yeah, and so I arrested her again. I loudly let my opinion be known at the DA's office that she does not—they need to do something.
Thankfully, at that point, the judge had had it with her, you know, because she'd already delayed her bond condition twice, claiming she had medical issues in herself, which she did not. And I tell them, she doesn't have that. Well, you know, we're just, you know— So the judge at that point held her in jail.
And I really want to thank the detective up in that small jurisdiction because they got the warrant. And thankfully, that dad said, hey, let's go eat lunch. And he took her to lunch at the barbecue joint right by the police station. And the detective was waiting inside and arrested her.
And again, that was for the bond violation, and that was a third-degree felony, 2 to 10 in Texas, but the higher charge was much, much better.
Right. It seems like the important thing was to keep her off the streets, as it were, at that point.
The very good thing about this case is... the pre-sentencing investigator who was assigned. I know Derek thought it was a cop. He's not a cop. He is an impartial investigator of the court. So he is employed by the court. He's actually a court probation officer. And I mean, he talked to everyone I suggested that he talked to. He talked to Dr. Catherine Ayub.
He talked to the ladies down in South Texas whose kids she had been around. And he put all of this in the PSI report. Without him, we don't get the sentence that we got on this case. It didn't have anything to do with the attorneys involved.
Wow. Okay. So, yeah, so she's then being held in custody. Correct. And what ultimately happens in court with this case?
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Chapter 6: How does public perception influence legal outcomes?
Yeah, because of the prosecutor handling the case. Because he had done it before on the Krista Carroll case.
You know, that language really strikes me from the judge's order on the Jessica Jones case, a determined recidivist. Yeah, and aren't they all? I mean, have you ever, Mike, in your extensive experience and in our anecdotal experience with our committee colleagues, we have encountered many, many, many cases. Have you ever heard of a case where a perpetrator stopped of their own volition?
I have not. I have not either. And in fact, like what what's more common that I have heard a lot of is that perpetrators continue on even past the time when their children are out of the house. Like then something happens to a spouse or something happens to an older parent or something happens to someone else in their care or they turn it back on themselves.
Like this is such a compulsive behavior that. that whenever you are leaving a child in this situation, you are sentencing that child to a childhood and potentially a lifetime of horrific abuse. And like, that is what you are doing every single time. And like, It's really quite a bleak option when you think about why these choices are made. It's like, well, you either don't know or you don't care.
And one of those can be fixed and the other cannot. You know, so like we would like to believe and I think we must believe we must continue to believe that it is the lack of education because I don't I mean, I don't believe that. that people really don't care what happens to children. I believe that most people actually do care what happens to children.
And with that said, if the system is crushing the spirits of those who are trying to advocate for this abuse by making it next to impossible, then that is going to burn out anyone who is trying to actually advocate for this. And so I think that is when you do talk about things like
legislation, reforming CPS policies, that kind of thing where you can just make you can make it possible for those people who do want to do the right thing. Right. It has to be both.
Right. And, you know, we're going back to the legislature again this time. We are going to try to
uh move alyssa's law through and i think derek will be very instrumental in that um i've had multiple attorneys tell me you know these cases are hard the laws don't address them well you know what get behind the law that will change the laws change the law yeah and like i i would hope and like to you know i know we do have attorneys listen to the show so to those attorneys that might find themselves in this position you know i understand like that there is uh
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Chapter 7: What lessons can be learned from the Jesika Jones case?
and he was in the military. And so there was a lot of reasons why their parenting situation ended up being sort of gendered in the extreme, right? With a stay-at-home military wife, the offender in that case, Elizabeth. And he really shared some interesting sort of just insights on that he really was prioritizing doing all this stuff at home and really being involved and being present.
And I really think that that's kind of an interesting... And I think on the sort of level of how we can support families on a community aspect, it's really like recognizing that the dads in these cases, like Derek, do the right thing at great risk. financial, emotional, you know, expense to themselves often, and then are in a very difficult position of raising very traumatized children.
And that that's something that as a community, we should really be rallying around those dads and really, you know, just showing up for those fathers and those children that are in this situation, because this just has You know, it is a much better situation for those children that their mother is not present, that their mother is not able to continue to harm them and abuse them.
And it is a deeply difficult thing for a family to lose a parent in that way. And those dads deserve all of the recognition and all of the support in the world.
Absolutely. And it's just... Dads who try to do the right thing in this abuse are treated so terribly, so consistently by family and criminal courts. And, you know, there's a lot of dads who don't try to do the right thing in this abuse. And, again, a lot of that's education. You know, the last two articles in the Juvenile Family Court Journal on this abuse were in 1990.
So they don't have any education on what this is, and all they see is a dad complaining of this and want to just dismiss it as a custody issue a lot of times, if dad is being protective and trying to protect his kids. And I tell them all the time in training, you investigate it until you don't need to investigate it anymore. Can this be used as a custody issue by a dad?
Yeah, it'd be probably the worst thing ever to use in a custody case if you're a dad.
Just to say, like... I have heard of cases where this came up and it's like, when it's someone trying to use it, because of course there are people who it's like, it's like any crazy thing you can think that people will do in like a high conflict custody, like they will do, right? Like, I mean, it's like, you will find a couple that is messy enough to have done that somewhere.
And like those cases, like it was so obvious that that was not what was going on. It was like, No one else in the, like, the times I've heard where it was just, like, a dad throwing that out. And I think in one of the cases, it was, like, as a response to, like, a legitimate accusation of abuse on the dad's part. Like, it was so obviously nonsense.
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