Episode 8 was originally our season finale, but a source we’d been speaking to for months bravely decided to go on the record. This is Andrea’s conversation with Chalice Howard, Sophie’s friend of nearly 10 years. With many similarities, being white single moms of adoptive black daughters and a shared faith, Chalice and Sophie found a kinship with each other despite living on opposite sides of the country. Chalice shares about her relationship with Sophie and the girls, the journey to learning about and accepting what Sophie’s been doing to C, and why she decided to contact Andrea. She describes how things came to a head with Sophie and gives a touching message to C and M. *** Please remember that this conversation is from Chalice’s perspective and experience, so we are not able to fact check certain dates/times, nor her conversation with Sam. We have invited Sophie and other members of the Hartman family onto the podcast to tell their side of the story, but at the time of publishing have not received a response.. As always, the door remains open if Sophie or other members of the Hartman family would like to tell their version of events. *** Links and Resources: Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Why did Chalice Howard decide to speak on the record?
And while I bear witness to an awful lot of horrific behavior in this line of work, I also get to witness people like Chalice, who we're talking to today, make the incredibly brave choice to see the truth and speak up. And that's what keeps me going. So without further ado, please meet my brave friend, Chalice Howard. I wanted to start just by asking you, how do you know Sophie Hartman?
How did you two meet?
Chapter 2: How did Chalice and Sophie become friends?
Yeah, so Sophie and I met back in 2015. We connected online through an adoptive parents Facebook group, I believe. Something of that nature. We had both spent time overseas, specifically. I had spent time in East Africa. And we had a lot of mutual friends on Facebook. So, yeah, we had connected, I believe, the summer of 2015 online.
And then met in person the following summer when she was over on the East Coast. So, yeah.
And what was your relationship with her throughout these past 10 years?
Um, honestly, I would have said until very recently that she was one of my closest friends. She, it was a long distance relationship, but we, our girls are the same ages. Um, and we both, I adopted my girls through the foster care system. I live in Charleston, South Carolina, and her girls are obviously from overseas, but we were both white moms raising kids of color. Um, and so I,
And single moms. And so if anybody could understand the nuances and the unique struggles of being a single parent to two little girls from trauma, it was Sophie. And yeah, I mean, we talked on a weekly basis for almost the past decade.
if you can go back and I know you've been on a real journey, so it's can be hard to put yourself back in that mindset. But like, if someone would have asked you before all of this, like, what is like, who is Sophie? What is she like? Like, what do you think you would have said about her?
Um, It's such a mind warp to go back. It's so hard to think about myself unknowing what I know now. But if you had asked me even last September, October, I would have said that Sophie is one of my best friends, a loving and devoted mom, someone who has been through unspeakable trials and has been tested and tried and proven faithful.
I am in a really different, more evolved place of faith, but I'm still deeply a person of faith. And so we had a connection through our shared faith. I probably, if anybody had asked me about Sophie, I probably would immediately get, would have gotten emotional because I was so proud of her and proud of watching her walk through the fire for so many years. And, um,
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot now knowing what I know. There's a lot more red flags that have come to the surface. But I believed the best. And my experience of her was that she was someone who just could really hang on when hope was thin.
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Chapter 3: What was Chalice's perspective on Sophie's situation with CPS?
She's always been working so hard to get people to see her life, see what she lives with on a daily basis. And it's come to this. They have really taken her kids and think that she's lying. So, yeah, that's what I thought had happened.
And, you know, you mentioned that when you got this phone call, that the first place that your mind went was that something terrible had happened to C. And... You know, we talked a lot about what Sophie had communicated about how precarious C's health was to many of the people in her life. What was your understanding of C's condition?
um that it was life-threatening she had this horrible neurological disease called AHC and the line that I heard over and over was she could leave us at any time she could leave us at any time um any episode could put her into any kind of organ failure and um at that point episodes were happening on daily, weekly basis. Hospitalizations were the regular.
And so, yeah, I mean, it was horrific, but it wasn't, I was kind of preparing myself. in being friends with Sophie that anything could happen at any time and see could be gone. And yeah, it was just this really fragile tension we lived in. You know, it's really wild to be friends with someone whose child is in a medically fragile position that they're just kind of always hanging in the balance.
But, you know, we celebrated the good days and I just tried to be present as much as I could from afar on the bad days, which were a lot.
When Sophie would tell you none of these doctors are taking this seriously. Like this is, I'm, you know, and even the sort of narrative of like, I'm the only one who's seeing this. Did that, like, how did, how did that strike you? Like, did that, did anything seem strange about that to you at the time?
Or were you just sort of thinking, oh, like this is something that happens, like, you know, where doctors don't take something seriously or they dismiss a mother's concerns. What was your sort of take on that at the time?
I mean, honestly, I was completely, I was totally bought in. And I, you know, my partner now is a pediatric occupational therapist. And so, you know, our relationship goes back over the past five or six years. And as a pediatric OT, you know, she's in a position where there's oftentimes that she will interact with patients.
she sees kids on a, you know, some of her kids she sees once or twice a week. And so she'll see things that the pediatrician may not see, or she'll see things that other doctors don't see. And she at times can be an advocate for a parent in those situations and, you know, communicate to doctors what she's seeing through a therapeutic lens. And so because Sophie was always in crisis and,
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Chapter 4: How did Chalice learn about the podcast and its impact on her view?
And yeah, she's such a gift. See, again, we would just always get the biggest kick of how weird and wonderful are little ones where they're just like typical second borns, like just off the rails, like just anything that comes to their head is coming out of their mouth.
Um, and yeah, she had, had and has, I'm hoping, guessing a vibrancy about her and a silliness and, um, just so many things that she's into and Yeah, she's such a cutie and so sweet. I mean, both girls are just overwhelmingly sweet and fun to be around and thoughtful. And yeah, they're pretty special.
Um, thank you for sharing that. It's a really nice to just hear some, some stuff about who they are as people. Um, so tell us where this takes a turn. How did you come to find out about the podcast?
Yeah. So, um, back in the fall, um, Sophie had actually reached out to me and told me about the podcast and said that she had found out that different people in her life were being contacted because she was being investigated for this podcast that was going to come out. And it's another one of those moments.
Like I remember where I was sitting and I just thought gross, like how horrific, like who is going to dig into her life? Like they are recovering from so much. They've just, been through hell and back. And, you know, I was there when everything was released to the media and seeing your dear friend on the headlines with the most horrific headlines is just, it's like a gut punch, you know?
And so I thought, man, they've been coming in for a landing the last couple of years since this whole case. And now here it goes again. Um, I was so angry and I talked to my partner about it and, um, I remember saying like, you know, this sick podcast is going to be delving into her story and don't listen to it. We're not going to give them another single listen. Like we can't do that.
And, um, my partner has a little more level headed. Um, it was like, you know, if, if Sophie's going to be investigated on this podcast and it has the potential to really, uh, mess with her life, like we, like, is this some little known podcast that like 10 people are going to listen to it? What is it like? Let's find out. And so, um, we did start listening to it.
I definitely did not tell Sophie I was doing that, but I thought, yeah, what is this whole thing? Um, And so I started at season one. And so this would be the beginning of the end because that whole time back in the fall is kind of a blur in my mind because as I start listening, it is undeniable how the mom's in the seasons that you are covering just feel so familiar and eerily familiar.
And just like, even as I'm listening, I'm like, this is weird that it's similar because they couldn't be any more different than Sophie. Like all throughout the process of beginning to educate myself on what actually is Munchausen by proxy and, um, what, how does this manifest and what does it actually look like? Um, I still had some cognitive dissonance.
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Chapter 5: What led Chalice to reach out to Andrea?
And so I'm listening to this podcast, but was so deeply moved by your story and what your family had gone through. And so when I heard Megan Carter, when I had to grapple with Megan Carter is not who I thought she was. Maybe Megan Carter is not a hero. Oh my God. I came upstairs. I came to, my partner was like getting ready for bed, washing her face. And I was just like, you have to sit down.
Like, and I remember just trying to like explain, it's so hard to explain. Like, I feel like in a way it sounds like I'm being really dramatic. Like I hit the floor and I can't think, but it's when you find out that someone is not who you thought they were. I mean, it flips your world on its head. And, um,
Yeah, I just was like, I mean, Rachel knew the name Megan Carter because Megan Carter was a hero and someone who stood by the Hartman family. And, yeah, that was really when it all kind of, there was no going back at that point.
No, I mean, you're right. It's absolutely earth shattering when you find something like this out. Yeah. That is just like, I think, a deeply shared experience for everyone who goes through a case, right? It's just like, yeah, it's one of those things where you remember exactly where you were. You know, there's like a before and after of your whole life with that kind of thing. So at some point.
I get an email that was sent to like the, you know, general email box for the show and it was anonymous. And, but I thought, oh, this has to be about Sophie. Can you tell me like what made you decide to reach out to me directly?
I remember sending that message to, on Instagram. And I think I said something like, I have been listening to your podcast. I'm trembling writing this. I feel like nothing but a traitor, but I can't refute what's been presented through your podcast. And I believe that you're investigating my friend and And I just needed to connect. Like I needed more answers and I needed some things confirmed.
And so I remember initially. I sent a message on Instagram and then you can like unsend. So I like sent it and I, I like unsent it like an hour later, just like in a panic, like, what am I doing? This is, this is Sophie. Like I can't, I can't do this. I just remember sending and unsending that and I would send it and I'd be like, no, this is the next right step. I have to, I have to dig deeper.
I have so many questions. I was still just like, maybe I'll connect with Andrea and I'll find out she's full of shit or she'll be like really invasive or I don't know. I don't know what I was hoping for. I think part of me wanted answers and part of me wanted to just be able to throw the whole thing out. I just remember like weeping in between all of that, thinking like I felt like such a traitor.
I remember I said that in my email, like this feels terrible. awful and evil. Like, how could you? And, you know, I kept asking myself, why don't you just go to Sophie? Like, tell her what you've heard and like, go to your friend. Like, this is your friend. You share so much. And I knew that I couldn't do that. I knew somehow that bringing it up would be bad news. And so, yeah, I...
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Chapter 6: How did Chalice navigate her relationship with Sophie after discovering the truth?
It was like, where am I today? Am I back in shock? Am I back in denial? Am I back in anger? Like what's the emotion of the day? And you, you have been, and we're such a steady friend and such, there was nothing in it for you at that point. I was like, I'm not going on the air. I'm not going on record. I'm not doing any of that stuff. And, but yeah,
You were in it for the reasons that I had hoped you'd been in it, which is for the love of these children, for the love of vulnerable children. And so my hope was that, you know, when her world comes crashing down one day, because all of these, this podcast will be available to her, these investigative reports, like anything she wants, if she ever...
digs into what suspicions i know are already there this stuff will be available but tragically like even her extended family who i i have so many good things to say about the extended hartman family their hearts are good i think they are very deceived and in deep denial that is doing a lot of destruction but they are good people but good people is not enough.
This is my next step to just reach in hopes that I say, I keep saying M because she's older and I think she could come to what I know now about the siblings of these kids who are being abused. I mean, any kid in the family like this is being at the very least psychologically, emotionally abused, if not abused in other ways. But yeah, I mean, my hand feels, it feels like M is most reachable.
She'll be of a legal age sooner than C. And sadly, you know, C has been given such a strong identity of disability that I can't even go there yet. Like I pray that one day she can come out of that and see who she is outside of that. But that just seems so far down the road. So my priority right now and my hope is making some sort of reach for M. Yeah.
Well, first of all, nothing that you have ever said to me sounded crazy. I find I have a lot of these conversations with folks that are in these same situations. I was like, the story is crazy. You are not crazy. And I think that is one of the – after effects of gaslighting, right, is that you just find yourself really like grasping for reality.
And yeah, having that shared experience is so powerful, because even though I do now know other people who've been through it, it's still a relatively unusual experience, you know, and I was and am so concerned about these girls. And Like I said, I take the ethics of what I'm doing really seriously. And I don't hate Sophie either. I'm not out to get her.
And so I was worried about the impact that it would have on her. And I think one of the things that like, and I really, you know, adore my team and my producer Mariah is so deeply ethical.
And I really have a wonderful team, especially on this, our researcher and one of our producers, Aaron Ajayi and Nicole Hill, who worked with us in the season and just was like a really such a solid team to talk through some of these issues.
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Chapter 7: What was Chalice's interaction with Sophie's family like?
Yeah. I mean, it does feel so familiar, right? Like you think about these sort of things that I brushed off or the times I did defend her, you know, it was like when she had her fake pregnancy and then like somehow. I managed to blame the boyfriend for that, which is like, I don't know how I made those mental leaps, but I did. Right.
Cause it was just like, yeah, it was definitely cause he stressed her out and then she just faked a whole pregnancy. It's like, that's not, that's not an explanation that made sense, but emotionally to me, it made sense at the time. And then thinking back on, yeah, these periods where before she had cut me off, right. Where like,
I was thinking about this the other day because there are, you know, there are such frequent financial shenanigans that come up in these cases. And we talked about some of that with Sophie's case, but like, you know, previous to any of the pregnancy stuff, like actually right before the pregnancy stuff, you know, Megan had committed check fraud.
And my parents bailed her out, but she was very mad about it. like, quote, siding with them, because I was like, well, you know, you did, like, do the thing. Like, I can't understand why they're mad. And then she didn't talk to me for, like, three months. And then when she got, quote, pregnant, that was when she got back in touch with all of us.
So it was already like, oh, any attempt to, like, confront her will be seen as a betrayal. So it's like, yes, they do the wrong thing that is harmful, and then somehow everyone else has to apologize for it. It's very bizarre, but it's very, like...
It's believable to me that Sophie's younger sister is also in that dynamic with her and, like, understands that, like, you support their version of events 100% or you are dead to them. And that is what happened with, you know, like, I know what would have happened to Sophie's parents if they had declined to fund all of that.
I presumably it would be the same thing that happened to my parents when they declined to help make and file a lawsuit against Seattle Children's. Um, because, you know, then they never saw their grandchild again. Um, so, so I think, I think the fear, the fear is real. The con, you know, like that and understandable and I'm empathetic to it.
I'm not empathetic to putting that over the safety of the children. And, um, I also think, you know, one of my sort of lingering questions, and I think you have some insight into this because you have been sort of on both sides of it, believing the narrative and then seeing the reality, is that, you know, Sam and presumably...
their mom and to some extent their dad, you know, were sitting in this trial, heard those doctors present, saw that evidence, have seen everything that I have seen and that you have seen and much more because all of this took place in family court.
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