Chalice Howard
Appearances
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I mean, sometimes I'd call, Sophie would call and my daughter, my little one would see. Oh, it's Sophie calling. And she'd answer the phone and she'd be like, I'm talking to her, you know, and they'd go off and talk in the other room. And we prioritized the friendship because it was so special. It was so unique. That's like, what are the odds? Like Sophie and I are maybe a year apart.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Our kids are all a year apart. Yeah. Again, everybody had a buddy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
This will make me pretty emotional because they are so special. They are, they're such special little girls. Um, Em is so bright and so thoughtful and so wholehearted. She's always been an amazing writer. And when they were homeschooled, especially over the pandemic, when she would do different writing assignments, Sophie would send them to me or she would call and read them. I mean, just...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
she has such a gift of writing and are articulating her thoughts and she's, um, you know, been through so much in her little life and, um, she's just fun and funny and has such a pure heart. Um, she was obviously a gymnast, so she's just tough as nails and, um, Yeah. You know, when our kids were together, like I remember she would watch all these tutorials and how to do her makeup on YouTube.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And then when we went on that little trip together in Myrtle Beach, she did my daughter's makeup. And I remember her telling Aaliyah, like just how beautiful she looked. And she's just full of so much light and just to like love on my kid. And she's really special. Like she's the kind of kid, like when you talk to her, you're just like, oh, you're a deep well, you know? And so she's really cool.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And yeah, she's such a gift. See, again, we would just always get the biggest kick of how weird and wonderful are little ones where they're just like typical second borns, like just off the rails, like just anything that comes to their head is coming out of their mouth.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Um, and yeah, she had, had and has, I'm hoping, guessing a vibrancy about her and a silliness and, um, just so many things that she's into and Yeah, she's such a cutie and so sweet. I mean, both girls are just overwhelmingly sweet and fun to be around and thoughtful. And yeah, they're pretty special.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. So, um, back in the fall, um, Sophie had actually reached out to me and told me about the podcast and said that she had found out that different people in her life were being contacted because she was being investigated for this podcast that was going to come out. And it's another one of those moments.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Like I remember where I was sitting and I just thought gross, like how horrific, like who is going to dig into her life? Like they are recovering from so much. They've just, been through hell and back. And, you know, I was there when everything was released to the media and seeing your dear friend on the headlines with the most horrific headlines is just, it's like a gut punch, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so I thought, man, they've been coming in for a landing the last couple of years since this whole case. And now here it goes again. Um, I was so angry and I talked to my partner about it and, um, I remember saying like, you know, this sick podcast is going to be delving into her story and don't listen to it. We're not going to give them another single listen. Like we can't do that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And, um, my partner has a little more level headed. Um, it was like, you know, if, if Sophie's going to be investigated on this podcast and it has the potential to really, uh, mess with her life, like we, like, is this some little known podcast that like 10 people are going to listen to it? What is it like? Let's find out. And so, um, we did start listening to it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I definitely did not tell Sophie I was doing that, but I thought, yeah, what is this whole thing? Um, And so I started at season one. And so this would be the beginning of the end because that whole time back in the fall is kind of a blur in my mind because as I start listening, it is undeniable how the mom's in the seasons that you are covering just feel so familiar and eerily familiar.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And just like, even as I'm listening, I'm like, this is weird that it's similar because they couldn't be any more different than Sophie. Like all throughout the process of beginning to educate myself on what actually is Munchausen by proxy and, um, what, how does this manifest and what does it actually look like? Um, I still had some cognitive dissonance.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I knew I was listening to this podcast out of protection for my friend and to know what she was about to be up against. And I've told you, Andrea, I went in wanting to hate it and was immediately struck by your sincerity and the warmth and the kindness in your voice. You sounded like someone I would be friends with, which was weird.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
So then I went through this whole wrestling of like, oh, this really sucks. This must just be someone who's like, has a good heart and is on a good mission, but it's getting it wrong. You know, maybe she's gotten it right in these other cases, but like, she's gotta be, this is wrong. She's all wrong here. And But I didn't stop listening. I couldn't stop listening.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And over the course of the next week or two, my world just started to cave in because every red flag that I had been suppressing for so long just came into clear view. And especially listening alongside my partner, we're both just kind of looking at each other like, why? Why? Why does it feel like she's used a playbook? Why does it feel like... What's happening? What is happening?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
How is it possible? This is my friend. This is my, like... This is like a hero of a friend who's only, you know, been overcoming all of these hardships. It's just... it's hard, even now, it's hard to even put words to, but there was just the most disturbing similarity between some of the narcissistic behaviors of the moms that you investigated.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And when I could zoom out and look objectively, which I still don't really know how I did that and I think the evidence was presented to me in a deeply compelling educational way and yeah, it just all started to click and it was horrible.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
No, no. Yeah, absolutely. looking for one that's going to be so outlandish that I could just drop this podcast and be done and be like, okay, that's just some salacious, like somebody on a bent to, you know, get a lot of hits for their true crime podcast. So I was jumping all over and I knew that you had this sister, you know, and that was also like a really compelling piece of it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It's like, oh, well this has happened to her family, you know? So she's probably, um, she probably sees it more than most people does because she's had to live through this, you know, or whatever. Um, But again, remember exactly where I was when you said the name Megan Carter. And just, I like sank to the floor in the kitchen. It's like putting away dishes, listening with my AirPods.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And Megan Carter was a hero to me. Megan Carter was someone who had carried my friend. I flew out to Seattle maybe once. three weeks after Sophie's kids got taken away and she was in a transitional living situation in a friend's basement. And I went and stayed with her there. And, you know, it was all so fresh.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
They had just retained a lawyer and, you know, the kids had just come out of foster care and been placed with her parents. So everything, it was just fantastic. fresh wreckage everywhere, and we're just trying to see a path forward. I was there the weekend that she first met with her attorneys, with Adam Shapiro, and that all happened while I was there, so it was very new, but I had heard...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
oh my gosh, we've retained this attorney who has done one of these cases before. And there's been a mom just like this who's been falsely accused and that lives right in the area. And I just thought, what provision from God? Here's another mom who's been through this. And so immediately, Megan was someone who was going to be a pillar of hope for Sophie.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I remember Sophie telling me the number of days that her kids had been taken away. And so it kind of gave Sophie this anchor of, you know, you're just in panic mode. Like when am I going to get my kids back? And so Megan was able to say, this is going to be a long process and, and you got to suit up and get your head in the game, but you can win this thing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I just remember thinking, what a gift of grace that she has someone who's gone before her. and can be this beacon of hope. And I read about Megan's story online, and I knew the names of her kids. And I would get pictures. I would check in on Sophie after I left Seattle, and there would be selfies of her and Megan. It's like, oh, an unexpected friendship out of all of this horrificness.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so I'm listening to this podcast, but was so deeply moved by your story and what your family had gone through. And so when I heard Megan Carter, when I had to grapple with Megan Carter is not who I thought she was. Maybe Megan Carter is not a hero. Oh my God. I came upstairs. I came to, my partner was like getting ready for bed, washing her face. And I was just like, you have to sit down.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Like, and I remember just trying to like explain, it's so hard to explain. Like, I feel like in a way it sounds like I'm being really dramatic. Like I hit the floor and I can't think, but it's when you find out that someone is not who you thought they were. I mean, it flips your world on its head. And, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah, I just was like, I mean, Rachel knew the name Megan Carter because Megan Carter was a hero and someone who stood by the Hartman family. And, yeah, that was really when it all kind of, there was no going back at that point.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I remember sending that message to, on Instagram. And I think I said something like, I have been listening to your podcast. I'm trembling writing this. I feel like nothing but a traitor, but I can't refute what's been presented through your podcast. And I believe that you're investigating my friend and And I just needed to connect. Like I needed more answers and I needed some things confirmed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so I remember initially. I sent a message on Instagram and then you can like unsend. So I like sent it and I, I like unsent it like an hour later, just like in a panic, like, what am I doing? This is, this is Sophie. Like I can't, I can't do this. I just remember sending and unsending that and I would send it and I'd be like, no, this is the next right step. I have to, I have to dig deeper.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I have so many questions. I was still just like, maybe I'll connect with Andrea and I'll find out she's full of shit or she'll be like really invasive or I don't know. I don't know what I was hoping for. I think part of me wanted answers and part of me wanted to just be able to throw the whole thing out. I just remember like weeping in between all of that, thinking like I felt like such a traitor.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I remember I said that in my email, like this feels terrible. awful and evil. Like, how could you? And, you know, I kept asking myself, why don't you just go to Sophie? Like, tell her what you've heard and like, go to your friend. Like, this is your friend. You share so much. And I knew that I couldn't do that. I knew somehow that bringing it up would be bad news. And so, yeah, I...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I finally sent that email and, you know, sent it anonymously and said that I wanted to completely keep my anonymity. And you told me that you took that part of your job really seriously. And yeah, that was the reaching out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah, so Sophie and I met back in 2015. We connected online through an adoptive parents Facebook group, I believe. Something of that nature. We had both spent time overseas, specifically. I had spent time in East Africa. And we had a lot of mutual friends on Facebook. So, yeah, we had connected, I believe, the summer of 2015 online.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. So it's been such a wild past four months because even as I'm coming to terms with the truth and even as I'm looking at
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
at our not-so-distant past, my relationship with Sophie, and I'm thinking about different things that have been said or different diagnoses that have been mentioned or different crises that have come up, and as I'm realizing this is what they do, this is what these perpetrators do, there is always a crisis. And let me tell you, in 10 years of friendship, there was always a crisis.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It was not always C. And so even as I'm starting to realize that I've been lied to, that I've been dragged along for this crazy ride that she takes everyone on, at that point and today, I still love this person. I do feel deeply protective of her children. as I'm finding these things out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I want to make sure that I can advocate for them or maintain contact or keep this open door for their sake. But you can't just flip a switch. This is someone who I have built relationship with, who I have shared deeply troubling seasons of my own with. And so... That was so tough.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And then met in person the following summer when she was over on the East Coast. So, yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But the hope was, let's keep this relationship open to keep access to the girls available and to keep a safe person who knows the truth in their life. And that was the hope was that somehow it helped that there was distance.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
physically we could do what we'd always done which is our kids can FaceTime and you know there's like all this it's like now that I look back you know we you and I were trying to handle this thing as prudently and carefully as possible given the circumstances.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But there was still this part of me that's like, maybe my kids don't have to know and they can keep their relationships with their friends. These are their friends. These are girls that they can talk to about what it's like to have a white mom. These are girls that they have connected in a deep way with about
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
you know, not getting to stay in their family of origin and all of the trauma that comes from being an adoptee. And, you know, those friendships were rich and important. And so there was this hope that like, we can stay the course for the sake of the girls and I can just play the part, whatever that looks like. With the hope that I mean, I knew it couldn't go on forever.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You can't maintain a friendship where you know you're being constantly lied to and attempted, you know, all this manipulation. But there was the hope that there would be a point where we would visit again, that we would see each other, and that I would be able to tell Mike, I see you, and I believe you, and...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I'm here and I don't hate your mom, but I know, I know what's happening and I'm here because there will come a day where she, I hope, will see what is real and what is true and she will need people like this is in a much more intense way because this is a daughter this is a child but I mean Andrea I needed you when I was navigating this I needed someone else to be able to say like
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Um, honestly, I would have said until very recently that she was one of my closest friends. She, it was a long distance relationship, but we, our girls are the same ages. Um, and we both, I adopted my girls through the foster care system. I live in Charleston, South Carolina, and her girls are obviously from overseas, but we were both white moms raising kids of color. Um, and so I,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I remember you kept saying to me like, yeah, this breaks your brain. This breaks your brain. I mean, I feel like so much of what I said in our phone calls probably felt so nonsensical and you just created space and held space for me to... I mean, you held space for me to talk about the things that I loved about Sophie, to... work through the grief. I mean, it was like on a daily basis.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It was like, where am I today? Am I back in shock? Am I back in denial? Am I back in anger? Like what's the emotion of the day? And you, you have been, and we're such a steady friend and such, there was nothing in it for you at that point. I was like, I'm not going on the air. I'm not going on record. I'm not doing any of that stuff. And, but yeah,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You were in it for the reasons that I had hoped you'd been in it, which is for the love of these children, for the love of vulnerable children. And so my hope was that, you know, when her world comes crashing down one day, because all of these, this podcast will be available to her, these investigative reports, like anything she wants, if she ever...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
digs into what suspicions i know are already there this stuff will be available but tragically like even her extended family who i i have so many good things to say about the extended hartman family their hearts are good i think they are very deceived and in deep denial that is doing a lot of destruction but they are good people but good people is not enough.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
This is my next step to just reach in hopes that I say, I keep saying M because she's older and I think she could come to what I know now about the siblings of these kids who are being abused. I mean, any kid in the family like this is being at the very least psychologically, emotionally abused, if not abused in other ways. But yeah, I mean, my hand feels, it feels like M is most reachable.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
She'll be of a legal age sooner than C. And sadly, you know, C has been given such a strong identity of disability that I can't even go there yet. Like I pray that one day she can come out of that and see who she is outside of that. But that just seems so far down the road. So my priority right now and my hope is making some sort of reach for M. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And single moms. And so if anybody could understand the nuances and the unique struggles of being a single parent to two little girls from trauma, it was Sophie. And yeah, I mean, we talked on a weekly basis for almost the past decade.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. So my relationship with Sophie has always been long distance and her family lives in Michigan. I connected more with her family when I was out in Seattle. And they had come to Seattle to be there for her and the kids in every way through all of this. And so I didn't I don't know them deeply, but I know them well enough.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I kept open lines of communication with them as we supported Sophie over the course of what became a couple of years. I don't really know these people, but we have this mutual love for Sophie and a deep commitment to supporting her. And so I did reach out to Sam
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And we had a lengthy phone conversation and I did not tell her what I suspected, but I did reach out to tell her, you have to listen to this podcast. And Megan Carter is not who you think she is as kind of a gauge to see, can you even hear that at all? And Sam was very kind. She is deeply kind.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I stand in such a torn place about the position of this family because on the one hand, I see them as more of Sophie's victims, more of people that have just been taken on a crazy train ride for at least as long as she's had the girls. But much longer than that, I know now. And so, yeah, I reached out and the general response was just like, that family has been to hell and back, you know.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
If you believe... that doctors conspired against your sister, your daughter, and took her children away, especially a medically fragile child, especially two children who have already lost their first family. One was being held and sheltered in the hospital and one was put in foster care. And if you believe that narrative, how horrific, right? And so I was treading very lightly
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Because this is a family who's, you know, half of them moved out to Seattle, left their lives, dropped everything to go and show up for her. And as far as I could tell, really believed it all to the nth degree. And so I know, I mean, there were times when my partner Rachel would say, this thing seems off about Sophie. this thing seems kind of strange.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
This is my partner who I love, who I is the, you know, we'll be adopting my children when we get married and who I trust with my whole world. And even I, when she would say, that seems weird, I would get defensive. I would say, well, you don't know her. You don't know what she's been through. Um, it's not, if you knew her, you know, and, and I, I couldn't hear it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
There was a time when I couldn't hear it. There was a time when I would have my suspicions. I remember initially reading the police reports and thinking stuff is weird. Um, This seems off, but I would shoo it away in light of all these other things in our friendship. I do have a very real fear of the wrath of Sophie.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I have at different times throughout our friendship been cut off or been given the silent treatment for different things that I've done, always making me feel like I was the problem. I wasn't afraid of Sam. I knew calling Sam and reaching out to Sam that she would be kind and that she would listen and that she would hear me in earnest. But I knew it was a step too far to say no.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I think that Sophie is abusing your nieces. I knew that was too far and I knew it was just too much. It's too earth shattering. This was shattering my world and I am living my life separate in Charleston. Like my life could blow up, but still kind of go on. When you more than anyone know, like when it is your sister, your family, what does this mean? What are the ramifications of this?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Um, It's such a mind warp to go back. It's so hard to think about myself unknowing what I know now. But if you had asked me even last September, October, I would have said that Sophie is one of my best friends, a loving and devoted mom, someone who has been through unspeakable trials and has been tested and tried and proven faithful.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so I couldn't say everything that I knew, but I pleaded with her. I said, listen, I don't think Andrea is who we think she is. I don't think she is... on this vengeful mission to make a really great true crime podcast and deceive all of these people. I think she might be wrong about some things, but listen to her tell the story of her sister. Listen, you have to listen, you have to listen.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
So remember I sent her three episodes and I just said, will you please listen to these? hoping that she would hear what I heard, which was undeniable. The similarities, the personality, the walking on eggshells that you have in a relationship with someone like Megan or someone like Sophie. I've said this to you, that unspoken, do not cross her. I thought...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
maybe this will feel familiar at the very least. And, um, she couldn't answer whether or not she would listen to the episodes. I know even bringing it all up was just, she's like, it's just so much, you know, it was people magazine online. It was Huffington post. It was all of these different sources. I think she felt like it's already been covered. I've seen it all. She was in trial.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
She's heard the opposing side. But it is wild how you can armor yourself against the truth when you are committed to a certain narrative and committed to not betraying someone who has said in no uncertain terms, do not cross me. So that's the position she was in.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. If you're familiar with the Enneagram, I'm a two, I'm like a helper, like deeply empathetic. And I think when you grow up middle class, upper middle class, you live in a separate reality than a lot of people. And so at one point in my life, you know, I remember when I was 16, I was teaching dance at my dance academy. I was really involved there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I am in a really different, more evolved place of faith, but I'm still deeply a person of faith. And so we had a connection through our shared faith. I probably, if anybody had asked me about Sophie, I probably would immediately get, would have gotten emotional because I was so proud of her and proud of watching her walk through the fire for so many years. And, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I found out that one of the moms was being like horrifically abused. And I was, I was made privy to a lot of information. I realized now at 16, I shouldn't have been, but this mom was like confiding in me. And that was the first time I realized like, uh, horrible things happen to people. People without resources are really screwed and people don't believe victims.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Like people don't believe women. And so that, that was like a cracking for me. And then I don't know, just my life circumstances took me to kind of realize, oh my gosh, I've I've lived in kind of an idyllic world where we have enough money to pay for groceries, and I've never worried about my electricity getting cut off. You read The Hunger Games, you're like, oh, I kind of live in the capital.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I just live in a world where things work out for people. And then you're introduced to a world where things don't work out for people. And people do go from one horrific trial to the next.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And as I became a foster parent and as I worked at a sex trafficking safe home or volunteered for a time, I just had these different experiences where I'm like, horrible things happen and people do stand by and listen and know and they don't do anything. And so, yeah, I just sorted it into one of those things that like... horrible things happen, you know?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I accidentally placed Sophie with a ton of privilege into a category of, um, people whose lives really can just spiral, keep spiraling out of control without resources because of the color of their skin or because of their, you know, sexual identity or gender identity or all of these things. I just like, I missed the, I just have become so deeply empathetic to a fault that I believe people.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I believe people very easily. If you tell me that you need something, I will try to help you get it. I've seen enough suffering and enough people look the other way that when someone's suffering and says, well, you look this way, I've tried to build a life where I do that. And so I'm always kind of being drawn into...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
the plight of people who are living outside of a world where everything works out for you. And so, yeah, I believed that medical kidnapping was a thing. I believed I was kind of bought into that. And I followed different people's Instagram pages who had had their children taken away.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And you know this, Andrea, it's still hard to make sense of what stems from systemic racial issues and true injustices of authorities, CPS, the police, unjustly taking families apart or providing interventions that end up causing more harm than good. I had some sort of framework for that. And I allowed Sophie's story to just fall into that framework.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot now knowing what I know. There's a lot more red flags that have come to the surface. But I believed the best. And my experience of her was that she was someone who just could really hang on when hope was thin.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. And I think another thing that plays into this in my situation as to why I was so given over to this narrative of believing that Sophie was being victimized by the system has so much to do with my evangelical background and my understanding of
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
spiritual warfare and how when you're doing god's work you're gonna have you know you're gonna fall out of favor with people and you know satan's out to get you and the enemy will try to take you down especially if you're practicing that passage from james um pure and pure religion is to care for orphans and widows and so when you do that work you will put yourself in the direct line of fire for the enemy and he will try to take you down i think
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
fought that way for a very long time it's embarrassing now but i had a very um deep theological framework for spiritual warfare and so that was another thing i sorted you know i've come a long way even in the last four or five years and um But, you know, one of my go-to thoughts when I found out about all this is this is spiritual warfare.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
This is the enemy trying—you know, Sophie is living out her purpose, caring for these formerly orphaned children and bringing them into a home. And that is what you hear in church. If you do the Lord's work, you have a target on your back, you know? And so— that checked out.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And Sophie would reiterate that, you know, all of the ways that she has been laying her life down for the Lord and following the straight and narrow and living a bold life of faith and how much suffering and struggle comes with that. And she had been
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
priming and prepping me for years to believe see this is what it's like to live a life of obedience this is what it's like to live a life of faith people see how many people don't like me now I go back and I'm like well you're very abrasive and I see now you don't really have long deep rich lasting friendships because you don't actually know how to build friendships with people you don't
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
have that capacity as someone who I believe is narcissistic and, um, you know, but at the time it just all made sense. And I, again, I realize now, like I, this has been life altering for me because I realized I am very susceptible to like getting in a current and just, um, being taken by the current.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I was very much taken by Sophie's current, which was I live a life of obedience and radical love. And so I will be, you know, the enemy is going to try to take me down. The enemy being Satan. Yeah.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I'll use your words. It breaks your brain. It's because you're looking at something... You're looking at these investigative reports. You're looking at something that's so familiar to you that you know so well, but now the lens is flipped and you see it in focus in a different way. Me looking at all of these facts, Sophie was always clearly in focus and it was about Sophie as the victim.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And through your podcast and through the other education I did around Munchausen by proxy and this kind of abuse, it takes Sophie out of focus and it puts the children in focus. It puts the other glaring realities into focus. And so I eventually came to a place where I chose if Sophie is telling the truth, it's okay to stop defending her and just look at the facts. I had to come to that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I'm like, with anything in my life, if you have to cling so tightly to something for it to be true, you might want to loosen your grip a little bit. And I realized I have been clinging so tightly to being there for Sophie, believing Sophie against all odds, against everything she's coming up against. I will be a faithful friend. I will be one of the people that believes.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so when I chose to come into a place where I'm like, I'm going to put that on a shelf. I'm going to let Sophie's life and reality just sit there. And I'm going to look at this stuff. And if it's true, then all of this will crumble and I will, Sophie will come back into focus and it'll be fine.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But as soon as I stopped mentally, emotionally, psychologically defending Sophie, which now I realize was like a full-time job in our friendship, was you have to keep these things at bay. You have to keep telling yourself, like, you have to stop, once you stop making all the excuses, it all just caved in very quickly. Very quickly, yeah. So I had to, in order to see the truth,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah, so I remember exactly where I was when I got shot. a Facebook message from Sophie saying, it's an emergency, please call me. And I think it was maybe a day after the girls were taken, after CPS had come. And, you know, all of her things had been taken, her phone and her computer. So it took her a while to be able to get in touch with people.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It's like to take the world of defending Sophie and like put that on a shelf and to step back from it, that is scary. That is a scary thing to do, to take something that you've known, that you've believed in, that you've invested in, that you've given yourself to, a friendship that you've poured yourself into.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And to have to look at something else that may mess with that, you know, I would read, I read the journal entries, the stuff that was in the reports. I read the reports with like Sophie's voice in my head. Nobody ever believes me, you know. I have a target on my back, just all of this stuff that she had told me about her reality.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And then, so I go into those documents just ready to defend, you know, and thinking, I just lend myself like, oh, you know, it's really weird what she said, but like, I've lied about some stuff before. And, you know, like, oh, like I've, you know, done some like very benign shady stuff in my life, like we all do.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And you just think like, oh, if all my stuff was like put out there, that'd be embarrassing. And then you're just like, this is not those things. This is not those things. This is dark. This is dark. And this, this is, you're really in Christianity in the world of good and evil. Like this is actually evil. And so it took so, I mean, I give a lot of credit to you, Andrea. I can say that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
No questions asked. I would not have been able to do that without Nobody Should Believe Me. I would not have been able to do that without the educational work of advocacy that you do through this podcast. The careful way that you tell these stories. I was given the right resources, which was this podcast, to... educate myself about what this actually is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
There was a time when I was like, you know, I could really just stop listening and go on with my life. And I could call Sophie and tell her how horrific this is and just keep doing what she's asked me to do, which is to pray for her and to be available to her family through. I could do that, but what? So it eats away at me for the rest of my life. Like what the reality is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It became, it's wild to think that something that I defended so fiercely became disturbingly obvious when I just stopped defending her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. Listening to the podcast, being in communication with you, you know, I would read these documents and the evidence is just overwhelming. And I would process these things with you. I would process these things with other close people in my circle. I had just come to a place of firm belief that this is exactly what I'm looking at. I'm looking at medical child abuse. I have been deceived.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so I was compelled to contribute whatever I could to the story that you were telling, because I believe that it needs to be told for the protection of these children. People have to know people have to keep eyes on them. And so, um, you know, I had shared things here and there, uh, the podcast was eventually released. Sophie began to be suspicious of me.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But she had eventually gotten to a friend, been able to log into Facebook and said, like, here's the number to call me at. Call me. And when she said it's an emergency, call me. And it was kind of an odd circumstance. I immediately thought the worst because I thought that something horrible had happened to see. I thought she had died. died.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
There were probably things that she had told just a handful of people that eventually got to you as it should. Um, And she sent me a very, what's the word, accusatory text message. And this was a really tricky place. I'm going to pause on that. This is a really tricky place because, again, the fuckery of all of this is that
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I am aware of what this person is doing and how deeply at risk her children are. And as this podcast is about to release, I am deeply concerned for her mental health. Reaching out to her dad, reaching out to her sister to say, rally around her. I don't want something bad to happen. Enough bad things have happened in this family. My God.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yes, Sophie has been behind pretty much all of them, but I don't want the worst for her. I... I'm still crazy enough to think like maybe there's a 1% chance somewhere that she could like get healing and like actually live a life worth living. And so I didn't want bad things to happen to her. And I was earnest and honest in my attempts to say, family, people who know her, take care of her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
It's going to be hard because the truth is coming. But when the accusation came back to me, like, Have you said something? You've said something. It just burst the dam because, you know, I've had to process all these emotions, but there was anger because I thought, here you come pointing the finger at me. And I am now aware that the number of lies is
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
The number of betrayals towards me are so innumerable. It's laughable, except not laughable because it's just devastating. But I didn't want to have a conversation. I didn't. There's no confronting someone like this. And so I couldn't, you know, I had been like, you know, keeping my cards lying by omission, if you will.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
communicating with you while keeping relationship with her for the sake of the kids. But I couldn't, that duplicitous life for the birds, hate it. Terrible. 10 out of 10 do not recommend. Um, I couldn't do it. And so when that was finally like, she was basically saying like, did you do it? And I was like, yeah, I did.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I sent her kind of like a final sign off message that just said like, I love you, but I don't believe you anymore. And, um, please do not contact me unless by some miracle, which I do believe in miracles, you choose a new way of life.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I remember calling Sophie and she was just kind of monotone, like in shock. And she was just like, they, they took the kids. They took the kids. CPS came and took the kids. And I, it was during the pandemic. I was in the middle of my work day. And I remember like, it felt like the walls around me were like shifting. I was just like, what?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And if you, my door is always open to the truth and it is slammed shut for anything less than that, which is what has made up our entire friendship is deception and manipulation. And so I sent that message, um, shaking and trembling because I Again, despite it all, there's grief and sadness. And I blocked her number. And I don't expect to ever hear from her again.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But if she ever listens to this, I hope I do hear from her. I don't think you're all bad, Sophie. I don't. I think you could be really brave and do the right thing. And I would pick up our friendship again. And I would be there for you, like I have been, if you will be honest. in a heartbeat. I love her. I care about her as a person. I don't understand all the factors that have contributed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I don't know how it's gone this far. I don't know how she's become who she's become, but I believe that she has deep pain. It's not an excuse, but I think there are reasons. You know, you listen to the Hopi Bar case and on the one hand, it's so disturbing and so horrific, but I'm a human. Like I realized that no matter how upper middle class you live, like life still hurts. Trauma still happens.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Things still happen. At some point you believed that this was the way to receive love and you were sorely, devastatingly, horrifically misguided and you have made horrible mistakes, but I don't think anyone is beyond the reach of grace. I don't believe that. And so, I hope against all hope that there could be healing for that whole family.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I will always be championing that for that family, no matter how villainized I am. You know, I've been immediately cut off, blocked on all the platforms. things you can be blocked on from the family. And I know that the story about me is that I'm a traitor and it's heartbreaking because the truth is that I love that family. I love Sophie's parents. I think they're good people.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I love Sam and her family. I wish them all well, but for the love of God, would you guys open your eyes and protect those children?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And then she was like, they think I'm lying about everything. They took the kids. And I mean, I think we just sat on that call with like the silence and the chaos of it all. And I just kept saying like, no, no, no. Like this is impossible. What's happening? No. Like I had so many questions, but didn't even know how to formulate them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But I think she may have even said something like, I was always afraid this could happen. Um, And yeah, my understanding was, oh my gosh, I had known that all through the years she had been seeing all of these symptoms in C that no one else was seeing, the doctors weren't picking up on. And so, yeah, I thought, wow, this has really happened.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, I can, I still, there are nights I can't fall asleep and I, I'll just cry and cry thinking about what a lonely, sad existence. I believe that this is someone who is hungry to, for love and to be known and just has chosen, has chosen, let's be clear, has chosen to get that hit in one of the most deeply destructive ways. And that's devastating.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
That's just devastating. Um, I don't want that for anyone. But the priority shifts from the adult who is choosing this to here I am willing to talk about this case, willing to publicly say, I have been lied to. I mean, there's so much I can't say, but I mean, when you start combing back through the years of it all, you just are like, Oh, none of it was real.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
That emergency, that emergency, that crisis, that crisis, that diagnosis, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. It was always something. None of it's real, but it is time. Sophie has been the center point for a very long time. And I am willing out of my love for her as much as she and people like her could never believe that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Like I love you enough to de-center you and hope the best for your healing and and now to do whatever I have to do, whatever I feel compelled to do, whatever is the next right step to extend a hand of help to two little girls who are in a very dangerous situation. Um, and so this was my next right step. It, I take no joy in, you know,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
ratting her out or saying it's all true or being the person who comes on the podcast and says like, I know her, like, this isn't fun for me. This is not inherently rewarding, but I am compelled to do the uncomfortable thing and to do the thing that's hard. And this is hard. It's hard to say I was deceived. I believe, you know, this is hard, but it's right.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I, I can, and I will do the next right thing. And the next right thing is to
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
extend myself as you know we called each other like I've been her girl's auntie and the girls Sophia was an auntie to my girls it was a it felt deeply familial it felt deeply like this was gonna go the distance this is crazy but there was a time where working to the finalization of the adoption of my girls I mean this is how far in it I was and there's parts that are like embarrassing
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But, you know, whatever. It is what it is. But there was a time when I had to choose. I'm a single parent. If anything happens to me, who do my kids go to? Sophie was on a list and at the top of that list because for everything that we know now, there's a different side to all of these people. That's kind of disastrous in my mind.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But there was a time when I thought that would be the next best option. Yeah. It's a lot of loss.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
She's always been working so hard to get people to see her life, see what she lives with on a daily basis. And it's come to this. They have really taken her kids and think that she's lying. So, yeah, that's what I thought had happened.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Since stepping into this whole world and this new understanding of what medical child abuse is, there's another incident in my life. There's someone else I know, a friend of a friend, you know, it's not that I wish it were more rare than it is, but it's popped up in another place and I've talked to other people and it's popped up in their life. And I feel like,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
like my work, like the whole work of my life is like defend those who are defenseless, you know, care for the marginalized and the oppressed. These are tenants of my faith that I still cling to and what I believe it is to be a good person. And so, um, yeah, this, this is the next right step. You do the hard thing and you talk about the things that are In secret, that's my dog's name.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You give a voice to the things that are not being given a voice. And this is such a deliberately, successfully silenced form of abuse that there are not the safeties and the protocols in place. And so now it's this new, unexpected part of my life that I never wanted and I'd love to back out of, but I won't, to... Do the work.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
What does that look like to protect children and to advocate for children who are in harm's way?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And I love them both so deeply. And they are like nieces to me. They are... You always have been so special to me. You've been friends to my little girls. You have made their lives better and richer and fuller. and Aaliyah and Jamilah love you and our family loves you and there's nothing that we wouldn't do for you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Our home, our hearts, our money, it's all like open to you and we'll believe you, we'll always believe you and I promise to keep fighting for you however I can and to keep fighting for your family and in my own way to keep fighting for your mom, who I know you love. And when I say I'll fight for her, I will do that in a spiritual way. I will pray for her.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I will always keep a soft part in my heart to her. But the Howards love you so much. And we see you. And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for all the pain.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
There's always a way. It feels so far gone. I admit that. It's gotten so dark. But there... I believe that for every human, that there is always a way. Sadly, so often, there aren't people to support. But there are. There are people that know everything that have been hurt the most by this. You know, and...
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
um that it was life-threatening she had this horrible neurological disease called AHC and the line that I heard over and over was she could leave us at any time she could leave us at any time um any episode could put her into any kind of organ failure and um at that point episodes were happening on daily, weekly basis. Hospitalizations were the regular.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Even I, even Andrea, like we will still reach a hand out and say like, you too are worthy of rehabilitation. You are not a monster. You have made monstrous choices. You are not a monster. You are human worthy of love. And if you choose that, you won't be alone. You won't have to choose it alone. Is there anything else that you want to say before we get off?
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
um thank you andrea for your brave brave work you have given your life to something so unglamorous so unsexy and so messy and so dangerous and crazy and it is for love and it is for liberation and it is because you are a person of unspeakable hope And I'm so thankful. I hate everything that I know, but I'm so thankful that because of your work, I'm on the other side of a delusion.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And this work is so important and will liberate so many people and will be a hand on someone's back when they feel so alone in the wake of this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
uncovering these terrible truths and reckoning with abuse and reckoning with all these things you are lighting away and i'm so thankful and it's taken immense courage and you just keep waking up and choosing to do it because you have a heart full of love and so thank you i really owe you so much and i'm deeply grateful
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And so, yeah, I mean, it was horrific, but it wasn't, I was kind of preparing myself. in being friends with Sophie that anything could happen at any time and see could be gone. And yeah, it was just this really fragile tension we lived in. You know, it's really wild to be friends with someone whose child is in a medically fragile position that they're just kind of always hanging in the balance.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
But, you know, we celebrated the good days and I just tried to be present as much as I could from afar on the bad days, which were a lot.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I mean, honestly, I was completely, I was totally bought in. And I, you know, my partner now is a pediatric occupational therapist. And so, you know, our relationship goes back over the past five or six years. And as a pediatric OT, you know, she's in a position where there's oftentimes that she will interact with patients.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
she sees kids on a, you know, some of her kids she sees once or twice a week. And so she'll see things that the pediatrician may not see, or she'll see things that other doctors don't see. And she at times can be an advocate for a parent in those situations and, you know, communicate to doctors what she's seeing through a therapeutic lens. And so because Sophie was always in crisis and,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
I see now that I just learned to not ask a lot of questions. I didn't really have any reason at that time to question. Yeah. I just thought this is something that they're missing. And I also knew like she homeschooled her kids and they weren't necessarily out and about as much. I think my family and I have a much more social life and my kids were in public school. And so, um,
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
You know, I was just like, oh, you know, well, their life is a little bit isolated, so it makes sense that nobody else is seeing what she's seeing. She's providing the best environment for C, being there for her 24-7, keeping her in a safe environment. So I just kind of rationalized, like, I guess that's why nobody else sees it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Yeah. Surprisingly, yes. We were literally on opposite sides of the country. But that summer of 2016, they were on the East Coast and they came and spent a few days with us. And that just kind of kicked off like what felt like such a dream come true of a friendship. Like we spent probably three or four days together. They came to our home together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
um, we went all around Charleston and, you know, every, we always said like, we're twin families. Everyone has a buddy, like Sophie and I have each other, C and my daughter, Myla, you know, we're buddies and then M and Aaliyah. And that was pretty dreamy, you know? And so, um, we saw them that summer.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And then, um, I think the following year they came to the East coast again for treatment for C at Duke. And then we made it a, um, a tradition that we would spend that time with them when they would be over here and kind of go and, you know, brighten those days where they would see would be getting treatment at Duke. And, um, yeah, it was an opportunity for us to spend time together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
We'd get matching outfits for our girls. It was always, we'd make it a big deal for C. So it was like a fun thing. She and Mila, you know, we'd stay in a hotel and, um, She and my daughter Myla would have matching jammies and we got them little matching jean jackets. And it was just like this fun thing. It's like, oh, we're going to make like this big scary Duke trip like fun.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
And that was such a joy to do that. And our girls like C and Myla are just like the funniest little quirkiest girls. peas in a pod and they adore each other. They're weird, really matches each other in the best way. So yeah, we did that for a couple of years and then we, just a few years ago, we went on a vacation together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
Again, they were back on the East Coast and we went to Myrtle Beach and stayed a few days in an Airbnb. Um, and in between all of those in life, in real life connections, um, our kids would FaceTime constantly all the time, especially our little girls.
Nobody Should Believe Me
S05 E09: Out of the Shadows
They could just, I'd hand over my phone, they'd go set up in their rooms and they'd like play through the phone and give each other tours of each other's rooms and introduce their dogs. And, um... they could just gab and gab and gab forever. And so, yeah, it was long distance, but it was very real. And we really came to know each other's kids.