Unnamed Speaker
Appearances
Acquired
Hermès
So I don't know if you realize this, Hermes is reporting earnings in like two days. Yes. And at first I was like, we should probably not do this episode because their annual report comes out in two days. What if we're not current? And then I realized this is Hermes. The short term is of no consequence. Yeah.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, they believe that every single person should know each other by name, and they think that 250 to 300 is the natural limit on that. And Accel even says, if you have more than 300, it is not a workshop, it's a factory.
Acquired
Hermès
Crazy. And when Excel started at the company all the way back in the 80s, there were 250 craftsmen, period. And they hired two per year. Two craftsmen per year in the late 80s.
Acquired
Hermès
Nobody else does this. Little maker with a workshop in San Francisco or a workshop in Paris. But like, how are you even going to find them?
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, they're not France's largest export because they have a very constrained way that they can create the products, but they may be France's finest export. So it behooves the French government to try to figure out how to make this last another hundred years.
Acquired
Hermès
You had that thought too. Totally. And it's all people. I mean, it's all sticking to the thing that got them here, which is every product or at least every leather goods product, every handbag made end to end by one artisan.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, wild. This is a really important thing to understand the company. They firmly believe that only 250 to 300 craftsmen can work in a building. So that's one. Two, it takes two plus years for someone to learn the craft and apprentice. And three, that every one of these things must be created by one individual by hand.
Acquired
Hermès
And if you believe all those three things for sure, then it forces a very specific constraint on your business and you must work backward from that. You can only train so fast, you can only produce so fast, which then of course means that it affects your products and it affects the availability and it affects the price, which of course means that it affects the customer set.
Acquired
Hermès
So there's a way to view Hermes, which is they want the very highest end customer with zero price sensitivity and they do whatever they need to serve that master. But I think there's another very real way to look at it, which is how the company describes themselves that starts with the constraints of the craft.
Acquired
Hermès
And when you hold true to that ethos at its most extreme, you end up with the company's brand and posture that you have today as the only logical endpoint. They can only hire three, four or 500 craftsmen a year. They can only do this other stuff. good luck getting a Birkin bag. I mean, it's just one of these things where you can say they're artificially constraining supply all you want.
Acquired
Hermès
And so they would have to change something. They would have to say, hey, there's some new fancy saddle stitching machine that it turns out makes us just as high a quality product and every craftsman gets, you know, twice as effective or something like that. But until they fold on one of these constraints that they've decided are stakes in the ground, The result is the scarcity.
Acquired
Hermès
At the end of the day, it is probably true that neither one is the starting place and neither one is the ending place. And the two things that I'm referring to here are the method of craftsmanship and the price and scarcity. They just work harmoniously together. One is not driving the other. It is that they both want the brand posture that they have and they want the constraints that they have.
Acquired
Hermès
And so it works together perfectly. But a cynical person could be like, well, yeah, all that handcrafted mumbo jumbo only exists because that's how you justify the brand pricing and availability that they've put in place. But I think it all works in concert.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. Maybe. But sure, in an assembly line with crappy ingredients, blah, blah, blah, sure. But can craftsmen use better tools? Yes. And will Hermes continue to embrace tools that make craftsmen more efficient? At some point, did they use sharper knives than were previously available in the past? They totally did. And so will they use things that make the needle go a little faster? Maybe. Yeah.
Acquired
Hermès
It could have Hermes's gravity if it wanted to, but instead you can buy a checkerboard cotton sweatshirt with 120 LVs on it.
Acquired
Hermès
Right, yeah. The Swiss watch industry has done just fine since the Apple watch came out, on the high end.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. Oh, it's funny. I hadn't actually made that connection that that's why it's Hermes and not... Well, I think there's two reasons.
Acquired
Hermès
And Apple also needed to go to the very top of whatever they were going to grab. Like, that's the thing about Hermes is whatever they make... Nobody is ever going to say that Hermes makes crap. Right. They make the most fully realized version of whatever they're making. If they have an idea, they want to release the best possible, most extreme, exquisite version of that thing.
Acquired
Hermès
And that's very Apple. I mean, Apple has to make compromises for the scale that they're at. But if Apple had partnered with someone that was more opinionated, let's say they were better in some ways but worse than others, it kind of doesn't play for Apple's brand. They need to partner with someone unassailable.
Acquired
Hermès
It's crazy. And to bring it back to the late 1800s, I think the point you're making here is when Charles Emil was apprenticing, there was no other example of what this company could become. So he thought, why don't I carry it on in exactly the same manner, Thierry, that you did. And so there's not this grand ambition to innovate and change with the times.
Acquired
Hermès
I love the Hermes slimmed Hermes watch. I looked at that thing, I don't know, five times during research, lusting after it, and ultimately closed the browser tab being like, I wear an Apple watch all day, every day. There's just no world where it actually makes sense for me to own a different watch.
Acquired
Hermès
Which is expensive for an Apple watch band, but it's sort of like in the ballpark of Apple accessories. Or it's at least maybe twice as much as normal Apple accessories. Yeah.
Acquired
Hermès
So Hermes' belts, and I believe they're Apple Watches, and there are other things, are machine sewn.
Acquired
Hermès
even if people aren't buying them that's sort of the question I agree with you because what I think this does is it defies how I think of Hermes which is whatever they're going to do they're going to do it at that logical extreme they're not going to compromise they're not going to figure out how to address a lower market they're going to sell the same expensive scarf that they sold their grandma to you but they're going to have a different way to advertise it and this is weird it's weird it's a compromise
Acquired
Hermès
I think the same thing about their belts, by the way. I think the same thing about anything that is machine-sewn so it can be mass-produced and have availability in every store. Like, it feels like they don't promise that everything they make is hand-sewn, but it feels like a mild violation of the brand promise.
Acquired
Hermès
It's, well, how do I learn exactly your craft, exactly the way you do it, and then continue that?
Acquired
Hermès
You're right. It does feel like a profanity. I mean, Apple is the most valuable brand in the world, but the most common brand in the world. And for Hermes to associate with such a common brand feels odd.
Acquired
Hermès
Maybe you're now an Hermes customer, and over the next 50 years, you're on a journey with them.
Acquired
Hermès
Hermes has always thrived by figuring out how to be above it all and be counterpositioned to the rest of luxury. It's an open question, I think, of whether the Apple partnership helps that or hurts that. Okay, a few more stats on the business today before we move into analysis. Does that sound good to you, David? Great. Great.
Acquired
Hermès
Well, I thought one fascinating thing was Excel saying that with the $4.3 billion in net income that they do, they always split it roughly the same way. One-third to the dividend, one-third gets reinvested in CapEx, and one-third in cash. And what's pretty interesting is they have a reasonably low reinvestment rate. They're And they're holding on to a lot of cash, two-thirds of it.
Acquired
Hermès
And so what's obvious there in the numbers that we've talked about in a more subjective way is they have a limited ability to actually reinvest in the business. It's much like Costco. They're constrained by factors other than capital. You give them more money, they can't do anything with it, which I just find fascinating. They can only train the craftspeople so fast.
Acquired
Hermès
And frankly, at some point, they'll saturate the market too. If they're going to address the whole world... they're going to have to change what they sell. And the Apple Watch may be the first little version of that. They grew, what, 20%, 25% last year? They can't keep growing at 25% without changing what Hermes stands for.
Acquired
Hermès
And so even if they could train these craftspeople as fast as possible, they have another governor, which is scarcity, product image, price... At some point, they'll bump up against the walls of that and no additional craftspeople and no additional money can help them grow anymore.
Acquired
Hermès
And I'm sure there are some members of the family that want to walk around with their nose in the air and be a museum and say Hermes is pure and I want to go my whole life and then die with Hermes remaining pure. And there's other members of the family that are like, can we serve customers and grow this business? My God. And that Apple Watch represents the second faction.
Acquired
Hermès
Next, their cash position. They've got $10 billion in cash, and that is after materially increasing the dividend for the first time in a decade. They've recently just started dividending out more cash, which, again, is emblematic of the same idea of money is not our constraint, which is pretty new for the business. That's a decade or two old problem that never existed over the first 170 years.
Acquired
Hermès
And so that's kind of an interesting thing to know about a business is it was always run under the constraint of Even if we see growth opportunities, we don't have enough cash to pursue all of them. Now they actually do.
Acquired
Hermès
And so it's interesting to see how management sort of responds in this opportunity for abundance that they have and figures out how to treat certain elements of the business as a scarce resource, even though they don't have to.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, quite palatable. The segments of the business, leather goods and saddlery, is 43%. That's the big guy. We didn't talk about this much on the episode, but ready-to-wear and accessories is 27%. That's a big chunk. That's the second largest chunk of the business is clothing, effectively. And I sort of have an open question of whether they should be in clothing. Isn't it kind of antithetical?
Acquired
Hermès
I mean, certainly it's odd to see them in the fashion world and they do these runway shows and they do couture, but it feels weird. It somehow feels antithetical in some way.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. Next largest segment after that is silk and textiles. So remarkable how small the scarf business has become of their overall mix, given that it used to be, what, close to half the business. After that is perfume and beauty at 4% and watches at 4%.
Acquired
Hermès
And then there's a couple categories of others, which I think it's really interesting to look at perfume and beauty as another glimpse of what's to come. They make $100 bottles of perfume and they sell them at department stores.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. Which I think is very China-focused. It's very interesting to me that they are trying to appeal, especially to a younger demographic with a lot of their recent perfumes and selling in department stores. Again, it feels antithetical to Hermes as this sort of pure brand. But on the other hand, it's a continuation of the Apple Watch strategy even further. Yep.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. So here's some stats. In 2006, France was already down to 19% of sales. I mean, it started at 100% of sales. So that's why I say down to 19%. 2006, this is a while ago. We're almost 20 years ago. At that point in time, Japan represented 27% of sales. So there's all this talk about China and luxury today. Japan was that in the early 2000s. So crazy, right?
Acquired
Hermès
Japan was one and a half times France in terms of sales for Hermès. Well, today, France is down to just 9% of sales. So let's flash back to 2006 again. So we talked about Japan being at 27% of sales. Asia Pacific outside of Japan was only 17%. Oh, wow. Japan was almost one and a half times as large as rest of Asia. Well, today, rest of Asia is 48%.
Acquired
Hermès
Half of Hermes' business is Asia excluding Japan. AKA China. Exactly. That's crazy. And I think Russia accounted for a decent amount of that.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. I will say that you listen to management commentary. Hermes is very excited about China's middle class, and they have done a really good job skewing younger there. 80% of clients in China are below 40. Wow.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. Employee count. So they have 21,000 total employees. 7,000 are artisans. 62% of employees work in France. So they really have stayed French. They've not outsourced. They have 54 production sites in France or what they call workshops, and they manufacture 76% of the objects that they sell in their stores in their own exclusive workshops.
Acquired
Hermès
So they do still have these partnerships with other companies that they own part of or just have a partnership with or a distribution deal with. Usually what it means is it's sold as an Hermes product, but it's made by another manufacturer. And over the years, they've done this with shoes and umbrellas and leather jackets and raincoats and silverware and gloves.
Acquired
Hermès
Like they've had all these independent craftsmen that they sort of contracted with who have these really small shops, really small operations, don't have the brand reach that Hermes does, but they make Hermes products that are actually made by those people. So it's interesting.
Acquired
Hermès
I think they are sort of decreasing that when I give the number that at this point 76% of objects are made in its own exclusive workshops. But it is more correct than not to think about Hermes as they control everything from design to production to brand to retail today.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep, exactly. They have over 300 stores in 45 countries. David, as I mentioned earlier, in 2020, the Wall Street Journal estimated that about 120,000 Birkin and Kelly bags were made in that year. That's about 25% to 30% of total revenue coming from just those two bags, which, again, you can't buy. And also, you can't even see.
Acquired
Hermès
I went to a few Hermes stores over the last year, A, because I love the brand, B, because I was thinking we might do this episode at some point. I saw zero Birkin or Kelly bags even on display. This is the thing that they generate all their buzz about and make 30% of their revenue from, and you can't see it in a store.
Acquired
Hermès
I mean, if you just do some napkin math at 25 hours per bag, that's 1,500 craftsmen just making Birkins and Kellys all day long.
Acquired
Hermès
They have 16 metiers, and one in particular that I want to talk about is Petit H. This is one of my favorite Hermes things, period. So it started in 2010. It's a very interesting idea. For other leather brands, you typically see them trying to use the second best leather cut in some of their bags. But at Hermes, they'll never do that.
Acquired
Hermès
There's no bag that's ever produced with any imperfections or any part of the leather that they think is any lesser than the best. So what do they do with all that leftover material? Well, for years, they were just storing it.
Acquired
Hermès
And this is everything from the leathers to the felts to the silks, all this extra material where they were just like, there's a tiny little bit that's usable, but not enough to actually make another bag to our standards. So into the closet it goes. And in 2010...
Acquired
Hermès
they launch Petite H. And what they basically do is they collaborate with other artists for tiny little goods that can be cut from the scraps that are super whimsical, super fun. Think luggage tags that are cute little animals, but it's just enough of a shape to know that it's a bull or a bear or a cat. And you look at it and you're like, oh, that's really clever.
Acquired
Hermès
And what they call it is creation in reverse. You start designing with the materials, not the end product in mind. And it's kind of the opposite of everything else that Hermes has ever done, which is think about what's the perfect good we can create to solve this problem for a customer. This was like, no, we've got a bunch of scraps. What's fun stuff we can do?
Acquired
Hermès
And that is that whimsy coming through. One thing that I want to say about the luxury bubble cooling is that earlier I sort of chalked it up to, well, Hermes has the most exclusive brand posture, so they have the least price-sensitive customers, so they're going to feel the pullback less than everyone else. And that is true, but there are other parts of it too.
Acquired
Hermès
Hermes' obsession with responsible growth, limiting production, and slower price appreciation also plays into the desirability and the durability of their goods. If they were out there cranking the prices of Birkin bags, you might think less of them. If they were out there trying to produce more of them to meet demand, you'd certainly think less of them if they were outsourcing production anyway.
Acquired
Hermès
So it's how they conduct business. that has caused them to sort of be in a better position than the rest of the luxury industry right now in this pullback.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, there's a fine line. There's a gauche-ness to it. Right, exactly. They need to have a price that's high enough to signal this is something really, really special and we are more unique than every other luxury brand who's trying to make similar products and have similar positioning. But also it's not so expensive that it's gauche.
Acquired
Hermès
And I think the latter part, it's not actually about the dollar amount. It's about the price difference. Because if it's three times as much as it was a decade ago, it's harder to trust the intrinsic value of the good if it's fluctuating all over the place.
Acquired
Hermès
Oh, this is an intentional strategy over at Rolex. They increase prices a certain amount per year and they want to show a track record of that so that if you buy one, you can rest assured that it's going to increase in value over time and that it's a good investment.
Acquired
Hermès
Because counterintuitively, by increasing the price more than the rate of inflation every year or especially more than the rate of 5% to 7% stock market return... it spurs people to buy that otherwise wouldn't have bought because they feel more safe making the purchase.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. You're not just famous for being famous. You are famous because you've achieved something or you're in the act of achieving something or you hold a high office in which you were elected or appointed to get a specific goal done. You're on the move. You got stuff to do and you know, you got to get there. Exactly.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. It's an investment. Right. Then there's a business unit that we didn't talk about yet called Hermes Horizons. Yes, which is not a official métier, right? It is not a métier. They break it out under other products. They have four categories of other products. There's Internet of Things, which is Apple Watch. There's tanneries and precious leathers.
Acquired
Hermès
There's metal parts, which is a J3L subsidiary that I think literally makes the clasps and stuff like that.
Acquired
Hermès
And listeners, this is the question of what enables a given business to achieve persistent differential returns or to be more profitable than their closest competitor on a sustainable basis? And the seven that Hamilton has identified are counter-positioning, scale economies, switching costs, network economies, process power, branding, and cornered resource.
Acquired
Hermès
And the question we asked David on the LVMH episode was, for luxury brands, is there anything else other than branding power? Because the definition of branding power is if I present you two identical objects and one of them is branded and one of them is unbranded, it is literally quantified as the premium that you are willing to pay me for the brand.
Acquired
Hermès
Now, in Hermes' case, it may not actually be branded, but you might still know it is Hermes and be willing to pay more for it.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. Again, we're drawing a lot of attention to quiet luxury here. Hermes is not as quiet luxury as they once were. So I think it's safe to say it would have an H or a horse or a woven H into the fabric or something like that if presented to you here. But obviously, there's a tremendous amount of branding power.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. Okay, I have two cases to make for non-brand powers that come into play. Oh, okay, great. Cornered resource.
Acquired
Hermès
Except for the ones that are opening their own independent shop, and those ones don't have brand power. An Hermes craftsman can make a wallet. An independent craftsman can make a wallet. You're going to pay a lot more for the Hermes one. In fact, you're never even going to be aware that the independent craftsman exists.
Acquired
Hermès
If someone else wanted to go compete with Hermes, it'd be hard because they don't have the brand, they don't have the history. But also, you literally can't find any more craftsmen, so you'd have to train them yourselves.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. The other one that is a little bit squishier, are they counterpositioned to other luxury brands by basically saying, hey, we don't have to serve as many customers as you, so we actually can handcraft each item individually? Louis Vuitton has no ability to switch gears and say, oh, it's important to compete on the vector of handcrafted.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. They have to serve too many customers, but Hermes doesn't. Right. It's kind of flimsy counterpositioning.
Acquired
Hermès
Okay. Playbook. I called David earlier this week and I said, we have a problem. There's this really good part of the LVMH episode and we're going to need to repeat it point for point on the Hermes episode. And that is why handbags are just the best freaking product to sell ever as a business. And David planted the seed with me.
Acquired
Hermès
Perhaps it's actually going to be a pretty different point once we really tell the whole story. And David, you are right. So the point that was made on the LVMH episode are handbags are the best product ever because they're super easy to sell versus clothing. They don't require you trying anything on or sizing. You look at it. If you like it, you buy it. Done. Much better than a fashion product.
Acquired
Hermès
They're easier to create and produce than perfumes, which is another common luxury category. The profit margin is astounding for most luxury brands. The profit is between 10 and 12 times the cost to make them. At Louis Vuitton, it's something like 13 times. So there's this ease of creation. There's high volume.
Acquired
Hermès
According to annual consumer surveys that Coach does, the average American woman purchased two new handbags in 2000. And by 2004, that number was more than four. So it's this high volume product. And at Louis Vuitton's immense four-floor global store in Tokyo, 40% of all sales are made in the first room, which sells only monogrammed handbags, wallets, and other leather goods.
Acquired
Hermès
Basically, none of these are true for Hermès. The business is not high volume or not nearly as high volume as they could be. In fact, they don't even show you handbags in their stores. So certainly not in that first room.
Acquired
Hermès
It was stunning to walk it last summer when I was there. You can feel the presence of Hermes and all the other brands that are there.
Acquired
Hermès
It's such a funny way to describe it. In terms of trying on the handbags, when you do get your moment in the sun and you have your 90-minute appointment and your glass of champagne and you have the opportunity to buy one of the two or three Birkin bags that they have in store. You can't say no.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. And it doesn't have the benefit of saving square footage the way that, you know, I mentioned, oh, you don't need to try on handbags. There's nothing to impede your velocity. Hermes is impeding your velocity and they're taking up square footage with these private rooms for you to go and spend time in. So they don't take advantage of that benefit either.
Acquired
Hermès
I mean, the only thing that it has in common are these goods are sold at a phenomenal margin, just like Louis Vuitton. But I sort of came around to this idea that actually we're not making any of the same points at all. They managed to sell the same exact product category totally different, and they've constructed an entirely different business model around the same products.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. This is a good moment to bring up this idea that Hermes likes to espouse that they have no marketing department.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. So they make the point that everyone at the company is responsible for marketing, which is wonderful. What a great comment. But there's some truth to it. There's obviously a lot of PR and events and stuff that they do, but it's worth looking at some of the numbers. They spend 23% of their revenue on sales and marketing costs.
Acquired
Hermès
But just a small fraction of that is actually on marketing or what they call communication. It's just 4.5% of their revenue. And if you compare that to LVMH, which spends over one-third of their revenue on sales and marketing combined – so that's 23% for sales and marketing at Hermes compared to 33% at LVMH – I mean, that's a huge difference.
Acquired
Hermès
When you compare apples to apples just on marketing, LVMH says they spend 12% of total sales on advertising and promotion. Hermes spends 4.5% on communication. I think that is actually apples to apples.
Acquired
Hermès
It's still not right, though. Oh. It's all marketing, that 4.5% versus 12%. But remember you pointed out to me earlier before recording, two-thirds of Hermes' communication is actually events. So if you look at the remaining third, it might be as low as 1.5% of their sales are actually spent on media buys for marketing compared to LVMH's 12%.
Acquired
Hermès
They also go really hard when they're going to spend money. They don't blanket the world. They decide these concentrated ways that they want to do something really unique and special, and that's how they spend their media buys.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. Another place that they save a lot of money is that they don't do celebrity endorsements, unlike virtually every other luxury brand. And this gets back to control, control, control. Hermes is the master of its own image. And in these other companies, celebrities do dumb stuff all the time, and it reflects on the company. You have to change your spokesperson.
Acquired
Hermès
I mean, you look at Kanye, you have to just decide to stick with him and tough it out. Nike has done this a number of times. to sort of say, like, we think we're going to come out the other side and we think they're going to get through this. Hermes, no. We control our own image. No one else reflects on us.
Acquired
Hermès
And who needs celebrity endorsers when you make your products so desirable and so expensive that... The celebrities will just buy them anyway, and they want to be seen in it. So there are celebrities running around who get paid to endorse other brands who will pay full price to wear Hermes out and about.
Acquired
Hermès
Not only is it revenue generating and cost saving, but it's also more powerful than a paid endorsement because it's authentic. It is what the celebrity is choosing to do with their dollars.
Acquired
Hermès
Unbelievable. At the end of the day, the Hermes brand really has a tremendous amount of word of mouth from people who are big fans of it. And the brand is built through the lore around the products. And they just don't need to do that much media because they have a community. They have slowly organically built this brand.
Acquired
Hermès
at this point, large number of people around the world that aspire to buy Hermes. And honestly, they just don't need to do that much marketing.
Acquired
Hermès
As we talked about earlier, somehow there's something about the French heritage that everyone else is willing to status-wise look up to and want to participate in.
Acquired
Hermès
Okay, one thing that we did not talk about is how they merchandise the stores. And this is another thing that sets Hermes apart from other brands. They have a pull model versus a push model for all you software engineers out there. Basically, they embrace this idea that every store is for the local clientele and that store managers know their clients the best.
Acquired
Hermès
So therefore, store managers should get to pick what is in each store. And headquarters does not dictate what every store stocks, which is super different than every other brand. You open retail stores in order to just get your product out. That's the point is distribution.
Acquired
Hermès
Whatever salespeople we hire to work at those stores, they're going to sell the same iPhones and iPads that we have everywhere else at every other store. That is not Hermes.
Acquired
Hermès
So at Podium every year, which is this event that they have every six months where they show off all the new references, here's all the new designs for all the new products, each store manager gets a budget and they have the freedom to buy, quote unquote buy, basically stock and get allocations of whatever they want at their store under the constraint that you can't ask for 120,000 Birkin bags at your one store.
Acquired
Hermès
And they're going to do this forever together and they're going to be thick as thieves. And, you know, they are of one mind on how this company should go.
Acquired
Hermès
Even though they're wholly owned, they get the benefit of not being wholly owned, you know?
Acquired
Hermès
The cool thing about a retailer that's decoupled from the manufacturer is that the retailer can kind of stock whatever cool stuff they want. You know, as long as the metiers are all producing a diverse set of references, then you actually do get this diversity of different things that are stocked at that store for that region. So it leads to this cool thing that no two stores are identical.
Acquired
Hermès
It's kind of fun to see what this Hermes shop has versus that Hermes shop whenever you travel.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, exactly. Exactly. I will tell you, I was in the Exxon Provence store and someone came in and said, I want to buy this particular item. And the store manager said, well, we don't have it. And they have a policy against anyone sort of calling ahead to know what's where.
Acquired
Hermès
And he was asking, well, can you call the other store that I think was in Marseille or something like that and see if they have it there? And she said, no, we don't do that. You can go there and you can find out. And I think this person was trying to like buy something and flip it. And so they were sort of on to that. He was also trying to take pictures of things in the store.
Acquired
Hermès
And they said, you can't do that, sir. Like you can't take photos of what we have in stock because they don't want people standing up websites to say, tip, go buy this here because you can flip it online for that much. But I love it. They have pretty tight controls around that.
Acquired
Hermès
Dominate the client. Yep. Their e-commerce strategy is just pretty funny. It's not like you can go online and buy a Birkin bag. But there's not even a product detail page with like a sold out button. There's just this educational page about what Birkin bags are all about and how neat the designs are and what the category is.
Acquired
Hermès
It's also for a different audience. Interestingly, 70% of buyers online for all the stuff that you can buy online were new to Hermes. So that's a great strategy for them for e-commerce. You say, look, the special things are the special things. But for people who we want to come experience the brand for the first time. Great. We've got a website for you.
Acquired
Hermès
And I think you can sort of tell that internally they're torn since that's not the full Hermes experience. Like you don't get the experiential part of being in the store, but they also do a lot of volume through it. And it's a way to reach a new audience. And it's kind of an expectation at this point.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. In some ways, it seems wholly un-Hermes, but in other ways, kind of like the Apple Watch thing that they do or the perfume, they are looking for ways to be more approachable.
Acquired
Hermès
Another one worth mentioning is employee turnover. So the employees, especially the craftsmen, basically stay forever. As we've been saying, there's really no other game in town. And if Hermes wasn't there, these people probably wouldn't have been trained to be craftsmen in the first place. So what does that look like numerically?
Acquired
Hermès
There is 6% annual turnover and only 4.5% leave of their own desire. 4.5% of their entire workforce every year leaves of their own desire.
Acquired
Hermès
Ah, Chuck T. Well, this episode, listeners, has been probably just under 12 months in the making. LVMH was just after one year ago, and it was in that episode that I feel like I got a real penchant for everything that Hermes stood for. After 187 years, still under family control, they're on their sixth generation of family leadership at the helm.
Acquired
Hermès
It's funny you say that. So Costco is 7% a year, but Costco cheats a little bit in that the stat is after the first year, whereas Hermes' attrition of 6% includes the first year.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. So just compare this with all industries in the US. That's a 3.4% monthly turnover. So in the United States, across all industries, and thanks to Jeremy Diamond and the Slack for pointing this out, one third of the entire workforce churns on average every year. So when you're trying to figure out, geez, is 6% good? 6% is unbelievable because the benchmark is 33%.
Acquired
Hermès
Which, if you are to use different language, is manufacturing and retail, which are super high churn categories.
Acquired
Hermès
I mean, even software developers churn at 15 to 20 percent per year, and that's just the voluntary numbers. This is much better than software engineers who get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a very cushy job. So finally, let's go real apples to apples. Let's compare this to LVMH. Well, LVMH's total turnover in 2022 was 24% versus Hermes' 6%.
Acquired
Hermès
So Hermes may be obsessed with this whole savoir-faire and transmission of craft in their annual report, but it is totally real. I mean, the entire thing works because of the knowledge and craft of their people.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. And they're only getting more obsessed with control. I mean, controlling everything end-to-end. Hermes used to have 56% of retail locations that were company-owned. This is back in 2003, so 20 years ago. A little over half were company-owned. That's now 74%.
Acquired
Hermès
So they're getting rid of what they refer to as the concessionaires, which are essentially franchise stores, and closing them in favor of the wholly owned businesses. So this is, again, they're just trying to figure out, how do we control more of our production of our everything soup to nuts? They describe this strategy as having three pillars.
Acquired
Hermès
And this is like three pillars for their entire business. This is like the strategy at the top of the annual report. Creation, craftsmanship, and an exclusive distribution network. And that's probably the way to sum up Hermes. All right, so to close Playbook, I just have one more, which is really this idea of what is the job to be done by Hermes?
Acquired
Hermès
And I had this great conversation with Derek Guy, who's sort of colloquially known on Twitter as the menswear guy. Dye Workwear is his handle. And he has some amazing threads. They're very worth reading about if you're interested in ironing pants or why suits don't fit the way they used to.
Acquired
Hermès
But he pointed out this really interesting thing to me, which is the value propositions of Hermes are essentially a bundle. And that bundle is exclusivity, service, craftsmanship, shopping experience, and a great brand. And you basically can't get that bundle anywhere else. That doesn't have competitors.
Acquired
Hermès
And it used to exist in sort of a pre-war, early 20th century era, you could. But Hermes was the only one that sort of chose to keep doing things the old way and scale. And everyone else kind of went out of business or changed their methodology to scale. So, for example, Louis Vuitton has the branding, they have exclusivity, but the craftsmanship isn't there.
Acquired
Hermès
They don't make things in that early 20th century way. Supreme can offer you exclusivity and brand, but again, there's no real craftsmanship there. And then you've got all these individual artisans, you know, a craftsperson in a little workshop somewhere in Paris making the highest quality, you know, Hermes quality things. But there's no brand. Would you buy that?
Acquired
Hermès
Would you pay even half the price for that? I think a lot of people who are buying Hermes are buying it because it's Hermes, and they want the brand. Right. And, you know, there's other things that are missing from that, too. There's no shopping experience. Service is unknown because you don't know how long that maker is going to be around.
Acquired
Hermès
You know for a fact that 50 years from now you can get your Hermes thing serviced. So there's some great makers like Chester Mox or April in Paris, or I heard great things about Mila Gito. These are like exceptional craftsmen hand-making items in the same way, but it's a different bundle of value propositions.
Acquired
Hermès
To me, what sums up the analysis is that the magic of what Hermes has done is managed to scale the old way with the complete bundle.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. Well, this section was originally created by us five years ago or something to basically assess of the value created in the world How much does the company actually capture of it? So canonically, Craigslist creates a ton of value. Wikipedia creates a ton of value. Captures very little of it. But you look at, on the other hand, Google, they create a lot of value.
Acquired
Hermès
You can find stuff on the internet. They're pretty damn good at capturing it. They've built a huge business on that. So there, I think, is a reasonable indictment to make that many of you will want to make on all of luxury and say it's just excess. They don't actually create value in the world.
Acquired
Hermès
And then they capture a tremendous amount of value because they just have a brand that allows people to social signal. And all luxury is excess. And that's a reasonable viewpoint. However, I think there's an interesting way to look at Hermes in particular, which is if what you desire is the highest quality craft,
Acquired
Hermès
they offer, at an extreme price, a guarantee to be able to get that super high-quality craft. And that's different than every other luxury brand that is no longer about craftsmanship, but is kind of about hype and logos. Yeah. It's about brand and fashion. Yes.
Acquired
Hermès
So I would say Hermes has figured out that there actually is a pretty big niche for craftsmanship, or at least people who desire the brand of craftsmanship, And they're exceptional at value capture around that.
Acquired
Hermès
Another element to value creation, value capture is what they're doing good for the world, period, regardless of what they're able to capture. Anybody who's doing things with exotic leathers, you may have a problem with. Farmed crocodiles in mass quantities in order to create the Himalaya print Birkin bags.
Acquired
Hermès
So for everyone who's like, you know, it's absolutely cruel to do this to crocodiles to make handbags, Hermes doesn't really have like a counterpoint. They don't have like a, well, they lived good lives. That's not a part of their defense. Their defense is purely around sustainable farming, which is, hey, these are endangered species in many scenarios with these exotic leathers.
Acquired
Hermès
And so what we do is... For the ones that we farm, we also release a bunch into the wild to try to replenish the population.
Acquired
Hermès
Even though we're not actually taking away from the population in the wild because we're not hunting them, we are trying to sort of, almost in like an eye-for-an-eye way, say, look, we're creating a bunch of crocodiles, and so we're releasing a bunch of them into nature also. And I don't know. It sits medium with me.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. Similarly, you see piles and piles and piles of cow hides for leather production. And the response is, well, look, these were beef cows. And so we're basically doing a good thing by making sure that we use the whole animal since we were going to use it anyway for sustenance somewhere else in humanity.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. I mean, other brands, Chanel, Karl Lagerfeld, Mulberry, a bunch of them are banning exotic leathers in their products. So I think Hermes has played around with mushroom leather, but do I think Hermes is going to go all vegan anytime soon? Absolutely not. It's just not happening.
Acquired
Hermès
The last thing that you can definitely be mad about if you are into animal welfare is the fact that Hermes cares so deeply about their brand that they burn imperfect products so they never see the light of day. That's a bummer. I understand Hermes's position of not wanting these bags to get out there and have their brand on it and People realize like, oh, some Birkin bags look kind of crappy.
Acquired
Hermès
But if you're destroying product that could otherwise have utility, especially when it's made from animals, bummer.
Acquired
Hermès
So they spend a lot of time in their annual report talking about how much more they're getting efficient in their manufacturing processes, how the rates of this are going down. They don't specifically call out burning bags, but how they're able to use more and more of the raw material and have...
Acquired
Hermès
everything that goes in the top of the funnel kind of get used in products all the way at the bottom of the funnel. So the company's taken a lot of heat for it over the years and it's something that they spend a lot of time working on. Yep. All right, David, I think that brings us to the question, which is what is your big takeaway from this episode?
Acquired
Hermès
What is something, it's like a big idea you're obsessed with after spending all this time with Hermes.
Acquired
Hermès
Well, and importantly, bear case, bull case has to take into account what are people's current expectations. So you sort of have to dissect the stock price.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. And we figure by the time you get to this point of the episode, you kind of already have a bear case and a bull case in your head. It's not like we're going to sit here and paint, well, if people keep being excited about luxury goods.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, there's a fun and there's staying true to their identity. And both of those things are more important than winning some numerical game.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. I love that. The splinter in my mind is that you can sell what on the face of it seems like the same type of products as someone else, but build two entirely different businesses. And Louis Vuitton and Hermes, on the face of it, do the same thing. And as soon as you start digging in, you realize that these companies could not be more different.
Acquired
Hermès
And all of the puzzle pieces that fit together to create Hermes is an entirely different puzzle than the pieces that fit together to create Louis Vuitton. It's a great reminder that just because you are in the same product category as someone else, you don't have to build a similar business and you might not even be competing with them.
Acquired
Hermès
There's a large number of people for whom Louis Vuitton and Hermes are not actually in a consideration set together ever. And I think that's fascinating.
Acquired
Hermès
Interesting. Because you're putting a whole saddle in it, like you're de-saddling your horse, and then you're putting that in this bag.
Acquired
Hermès
Well, sometimes we get to learn about an industry that's interesting to know things about, like healthcare or something we're a fan of, like the NFL episode. But sometimes we do an episode like Hermes, and it really teaches us how to run our own business.
Acquired
Hermès
Again, acquired is not luxury, but we do create a product that has real scarcity, both on the listener front, because we only have an episode a month, and on the sponsor front, because we only have three sponsors a season. There is so much to learn studying the purity of Hermes when you run a business that's predicated on scarcity. Yes. So this one was extra indulgent for you and I. Yes.
Acquired
Hermès
I have three. Ooh, fun. And none of them are a Vision Pro, even though the Vision Pro is sitting next to me on my desk. And the reason is not because I can't recommend it, but because this is acquired and we can't possibly do anything that's too current. I need more time to evaluate.
Acquired
Hermès
Okay, first one, the Anker Prime charger. I'll give you the model number because Anker products are impossible to figure out what's what. This is the A2343 model. It is a 100 watt charger that has two USB-C ports and one USB-A port. And it is tiny. It's lightweight. It's dense. You'll pick it up and be like, oh my God, this is really heavy, but it's lightweight compared to large bricks.
Acquired
Hermès
And here's the important thing. In those diagonal airline charging seats, you can plug it in and it doesn't fall out. And so it's 100 watts. You can super fast charge phone, laptop, whatever. There's two ports, two USB-C ports and one USB-A, and it works on airlines. So it's the only thing that I travel with now.
Acquired
Hermès
And it's the new gallium nitride GAN charging technology, which I think is totally game-changing.
Acquired
Hermès
Okay. Yeah. I don't understand why nobody's talking about it because it feels like it completely revolutionized chargers. It makes everything 50% the size, even though it has super high power delivery.
Acquired
Hermès
Might need to do it. All right, we'll link it in the show notes. Two more are apps or websites or web services. I don't know what we're supposed to call them these days. The first one is an app called Matter, which I have replaced for years I used Instapaper. Oh, yeah. And it was great, but it just hasn't been touched in forever. And Matter is Instapaper but better.
Acquired
Hermès
It is also an amazing way to listen to things that you save in a very realistic voice. So long-time listeners know I don't absorb stuff very well by reading. I absorb it really well by reading. Listening. And so much of the research.
Acquired
Hermès
Correct. You can save podcast episodes, but you can forward an email newsletter and have that read it to you. You can use the bookmarklet on a website, have it read it to you. So it sort of bundles in text to speech and podcasts and email newsletters and read it later type services into one app. I mean, I did half the research for this by taking long things to read, including PDFs.
Acquired
Hermès
It has an ability to parse PDFs now and like listening while running or my son was asleep in a carrier and I'm like walking around the house or I'm in a dark room somewhere or I'm on the treadmill in the garage. So I really like Matter. The team behind it is awesome.
Acquired
Hermès
They actually were kind enough to reach out and have David and I collaborate with them on a couple of guest blog posts for their Words That Matter series of some of our favorite readings and writings of all time. The team was great, which was my entree into it, but the product has exceeded expectations.
Acquired
Hermès
It's awesome. My third one is another thing that dramatically has helped my research, which is perplexity AI. Oh, yeah. If I could stop using Google, I would because perplexity is better for everything that I use to Google, period.
Acquired
Hermès
It's all the good things about ChatGPT and all the good things about Google and none of the bad things of either. It's reliable. It links to sources. It has good UI. I trust it because I've fact-checked it so many times and it just keeps being right. It makes it easy to fact-check. Accessing information is one of these things that if it's 97% good, it's bad. So it needs to be always good.
Acquired
Hermès
That's crazy. It's like if Apple eventually transitioned to being not the Vision Pro company, but the Vision Pro carrying case company.
Acquired
Hermès
Here's the best use case for perplexity. The other day, I couldn't find something on Google, and I went over to perplexity, and I asked it the question, and it said, the answer to this is unknown on the internet. And I was like, that is amazing. You just gave me confidence.
Acquired
Hermès
That's the paradox. You often do your best work when you get older, even though you have less time because you're wiser, your information's better.
Acquired
Hermès
Oh, did you get the carry case, by the way? No, I'm not going to spend another $200 on that. That thing looks like a balloon. It's enormous. Yes, and it takes up your whole backpack.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. You've gotten better at your craft and you can never have both, but you live your life anyway. You'll make it through.
Acquired
Hermès
But you need a way to start that's predictable or at least something you've thought through.
Acquired
Hermès
I tweeted this that Taylor plus the NFL is literally the perfect bundle because they've both fully saturated their markets. That Taylor is America's musical cultural icon of this moment. There's no one... who could be a Taylor super fan that's not already a Taylor super fan. And the NFL, similarly, has had close to a hundred year history. And it is the fullest realization of itself already.
Acquired
Hermès
The NFL is America's sport. And so they've already got all the super fans they're going to get. And so by bundling together, this is so awful. Oh, no, this is the ultimate collab. Yes. They can address each other's sort of casual fans who wouldn't have tuned in specifically for one or the other.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. What's the phrase that Shashir Moroder used? The marginal churn contribution. There are people who will not turn off the Super Bowl who otherwise would have because there might be another Taylor viewing. Yeah.
Acquired
Hermès
All right, listeners, we have a bunch of thank yous. Huge thank you to Domenico De Soleil, the former CEO of Gucci and the co-founder of Tom Ford with Tom Ford. Domenico, your conversation was just invaluable in preparing for this episode. And obviously, yes, a legend.
Acquired
Hermès
Adam Pritzker, a good friend of the show, is the co-founder of Assembled Brands and the company Kate, which is in the fashion and luxury space. And Adam is super kind and a huge contributor to this episode, just like he was to LVMH.
Acquired
Hermès
To Derek Guy, who is at Dye Workwear on Twitter for teaching me about saddle stitching and what makes Hermes special and a bunch of the other brands that we mentioned that do boutique leather goods. And for putting April in Paris on my radar. That was very helpful. Reginald Jérôme de Man, or RJ, which is sort of a funny pen name, he wrote a book called Swan Songs, Souvenirs of Paris Elegance.
Acquired
Hermès
He's obsessed, for lack of a better phrase, with Parisian luxury. and the history of it. And so it was really educational to talk with him about this and fact check a lot of my Hermes history. And finally, there is a lot written about the company. I do think the best way to understand Hermes is just to go right to the source. Their 586-page annual report, they just lay out the whole strategy.
Acquired
Hermès
It's right there. They wrote down everything. Yep. And David, I know you had a couple of cool conversations.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. Well, our huge thank you to JPMorgan Payments, ServiceNow, and Vanta. You can click the link in the show notes to learn more about each of those companies. You can sign up for notifications on when new episodes drop at acquired.fm slash email. You can also get little tidbits at what next episode will be and play the guessing game with the rest of the community at acquired.fm slash slack.
Acquired
Hermès
We'll also be including listener corrections in acquired.fm slash email. Subscribe to ACQ2 and any podcast player. We've got some great ones coming. And after you finish this episode, come get some of that sweet Acquired merch that everyone is talking about at acquired.fm slash store.
Acquired
Hermès
We mentioned Hermes, founded in 1837, is the oldest company we've covered on Acquired, but we might have to caveat that.
Acquired
Hermès
Over 200 years. Incredible. You only survive as long as Hermes or J.P. Morgan with a relentless focus on the long term, an exceptionally high quality bar, and counterintuitively when talking about handbags and banks, technical innovation, which is exactly the J.P. Morgan Payments story.
Acquired
Hermès
I don't know, David, everything Hermes does is just so focused and intentional and pure. As much as they sort of get lumped together with brands owned by LVMH, they are in many ways the anti-LVMH.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. And when you move $10 trillion a day in 160 countries and 120 currencies, these learnings really compound. And that is exactly the story of their new offering, embedded banking. This actually reminds me a bit of our episode on Amazon and AWS on how companies can take internal capabilities and scale them externally as brand new products.
Acquired
Hermès
In this case, JP Morgan said, hey, we already facilitate credit card acceptance. We manage KYC and anti-money laundering. We Pool money and split across virtual ledgers here. We disperse funds. Oh, wow. We can embed all of these into our customers' marketplace businesses to power their end-to-end payments for buyers and sellers and lower risk across the whole ecosystem.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. Macy's is a great example. They wanted to offer more selection to customers and support diverse-owned small businesses at the same time. But Macy's needed a solution to onboard sellers seamlessly and manage the state-by-state complexity of the payouts.
Acquired
Hermès
So they turned to JPMorgan Payments and their embedded banking solutions, which enables a large number of suppliers and their bank account details on a single platform supported by tokenization and utilizing a single API integration. This frictionless and secure payment solution worked, to say the least.
Acquired
Hermès
Macy's nearly doubled its marketplace sellers in the first quarter of 2023 and increased revenue by 50%.
Acquired
Hermès
Thank you, J.P. Morgan. Now, David, how was Hermes perfectly positioned for the age of the automobile with this new accessory?
Acquired
Hermès
He sees the assembly lines, and then he had blinders on. He's like, oh, pay no attention to the manufacturing efficiencies they've got going on over there.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, that is true. My wife and I were on our honeymoon listeners after LVMH, so last summer, and we were in Aix-en-Provence, and we walked by an Hermes store, and I thought that this would be a great time to go in and get each other something as a honeymoon gift.
Acquired
Hermès
Okay, so Emil both figures out how to open business in Russia and goes to America, meets with Henry Ford, understands the automobile is going to change the world.
Acquired
Hermès
It does show their penchant for innovation. The idea that we can push the envelope forward in functionality and what people would be willing to wear. I mean, this guy's a duke and he's wearing a zippered jacket. I'd imagine that drew some eyes at first.
Acquired
Hermès
So my wife got a little twilly scarf, and I got an Hermes belt, and it's the only luxury item I own of any luxury brand, traditional luxury brand.
Acquired
Hermès
OK, so we're still in the third generation of the Hermes family. Two brothers are running it. What's next?
Acquired
Hermès
This is literally like he wants faster horses of the analogy of like, if you would ask people what they want, they'd say a faster horse. Like he's stuck in a horse land.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. Well, listeners, if you want to know every time an episode drops, you can sign up at acquired.fm slash email. You'll get hints at what the next episode will be and follow up facts from previous episodes when we learn new information. Come discuss this episode with us at acquired.fm slash slack.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. And importantly, it's not just that you're trying to show a label, which is a little bit different than the modern version of luxury. It's that you're trying to have something really nicely crafted. When you show up somewhere, someone should just look at your luggage and go, wow, that is beautiful. Hermes is not yet a recognized brand. So merely slapping Hermes on it won't do the trick.
Acquired
Hermès
And something interesting that is different than the Hermes you know today, the way that they're adding all of these things, they're finding craftspeople who are experts at particular crafts. Exactly what you're talking about, David, a watchmaker. They're finding a watchmaker and they're saying, can we work with you on designing something uniquely Hermes, but you're the craftsperson.
Acquired
Hermès
Come check out our second show, ACQ2, where we interview founders, investors, and experts, often as follow-ups to these episodes. And before we dive in, we want to briefly share that our presenting sponsor this season is J.P. Morgan, specifically their incredible payments business.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. And it's interesting because they're sort of towing this line between first and foremost being a craftsman themselves and being a manufacturer and being a designer, but also kind of being a retailer where they're just bringing in other branded goods and selling it in their shop.
Acquired
Hermès
Their mindset around additional stores at this point is it's for the same clientele in all the places that they travel. Yes. And the clientele was primarily French at this point in time.
Acquired
Hermès
purchase our products there too right this by the way is a different retail strategy than what they have today today management sort of insists that the idea is that each store is for the local clientele and we will only expand into an area if we feel that we can serve the local clientele that lives there well And that's sort of a recognition of the maturation of their business.
Acquired
Hermès
The rich people are going to go find an Hermes store somewhere. It's easy for them to travel somewhere, buy it on vacation. But if we're going to open new stores, we should open it in places where there is a thriving new upper class who can buy the goods locally there in their city.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, for sure. But it plays well for me as someone who is on vacation and shopping to believe that I'm shopping in a store that is for the locals. It's less fun to be shopping somewhere that is very clearly created for you as a tourist.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. If you've ever been in an Hermes store, you can feel a warmth everywhere. that doesn't exist in other luxury stores. If you're in a destination with a lot of luxury shops, you'll walk past a lot of bright lights and mirrors and punch you in the face reds and black and white, and you just feel like there's a lot going on.
Acquired
Hermès
And then you arrive at Hermes, and it feels warm, and it feels soft, and it feels welcoming, and it feels whimsical. And there's this almost... dream-like color palette that they use, starting with a base of orange and having this explosive rainbow of fun, but in some ways it all feels natural and from the earth and just whimsy. I think that you nailed it, David, whimsical.
Acquired
Hermès
So with that, this show is not investment advice. David and I may have investments in the companies we discuss, and this show is for informational and entertainment purposes only. David, I feel like we're starting before 1837.
Acquired
Hermès
Same story as the New York Times. There was a whole generation of daughters. Well, none of the Ox daughters get the business. And so it goes over to the son-in-law, the Sulzberger, and now it's the Sulzberger-Ox family that owns the business in the same way that Hermes is the Hermes Dumas family.
Acquired
Hermès
The son-in-law tends to do well in this early 20th century period of passing it down from, unfortunately, father not to daughter, but father to son-in-law.
Acquired
Hermès
And the way Hermes describes it today when you read their annual report is they talk about their trademark humor and imaginative flair. And despite the fact that they really are tied to this old French elite tradition, they really don't take themselves too seriously in all their products, especially the entry-level ones. I mean, the Birkin is the Birkin.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, they'll do some special editions here and there, but there's a weight to that product line. But there's an overall playfulness that's exuded from the brand that comes from this era of leadership.
Acquired
Hermès
Really great name. It's got a ring to it. I feel like that's going to go be a viral hit and appear on Sex and the City.
Acquired
Hermès
Wait, David, I can't let you get away with that. Métier. Please enlighten listeners. I know Hermes sprinkles around French words in all their literature, and it just expects Americans to deal with it. If it's italicized, it's French, and you can go look up what it means yourself. Here on Acquired, David, tell us about a métier.
Acquired
Hermès
All right. We're not going to like the sort of Egyptian invention of the handbag or anything like that. Boy, let me tell you, I was tempted.
Acquired
Hermès
And so an important thing to know here is when you're buying Hermes products, they're really not pushing the brand. There is not an iconic, recognizable Hermes H or... horse and carriage logo or bright color that you're supposed to identify. This is really the origin of quiet luxury, where Hermes is handcrafting the highest quality product they can make.
Acquired
Hermès
You might think you can't do all of your charts in orange. You need different colors, but you would be wrong.
Acquired
Hermès
A single artisan is the person making the good. And when you receive it, you really are just aware that it's the highest quality thing made by a single person with their blood, sweat, tears, love, a piece of them left inside. And it's super different than luxury today because it is just not branded.
Acquired
Hermès
And Hermes hadn't even really developed the iconography yet that would become Hermes' version of, you know, slightly louder luxury. Over the years, if you sort of look at products now, the belts have an H. You know, they incorporate horse motifs into designs on their ready-to-wear clothing. But that really wasn't a thing yet in this era. Yeah.
Acquired
Hermès
Hermes is on the lighter side of branding their goods today, but it's still... Well, they have to adapt to the market. The customers want some way to let people know that they're wearing an Hermes item, even if it's lower key than other luxury brands. So Hermes builds that for them.
Acquired
Hermès
So 1937 through probably the 1990s, where these silk scarves were the Hermes franchise. And the reason this sort of took off is it almost became part of the French woman's uniform, right?
Acquired
Hermès
Fascinating. So this is a good time to talk about how these silk scarves are made. And I was going to do this later when we talk about their modern day production process, but it turns out that their modern day production process is not that different than it used to be. So here is how Hermes scarves are made today.
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Hermès
They are first sourcing the finest silk that they can find, which is now from their own owned farms in Brazil. So that's where the silk comes from. Only 20 new designs are created every year, and they retire old designs. There's sort of a Disney vault aspect to this. They'll bring them out of the vault. Yes. The pipeline to get a new design into the customer's hands is two years.
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Hermès
Now, you might be asking yourself, like, come on, why is this taking two years? That's a ridiculous thing. Here is the process. They screen print every single scarf by hand.
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Hermès
Right. Some of the design does seem like it involves computers now. Like if you watch documentaries about the craftsmen at Hermes, which there's a couple of good ones we'll link to in the show notes if you want to just sort of watch Hermes crafts people at work. They do seem to be translating designs off of a computer, but it's not like they're hitting command P. That's not how this works.
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Hermès
Every single color of the scarf is screen printed using its own mask or basically a stencil. So if your scarf has 20 colors, it has at least 20 masks that they then squeegee the ink over. And the precision is perfect.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, I was looking at my wife's sort of twilly scarf, the little wrist or hair tie scarf that we got in Aix-en-Provence. I mean, I don't know how you do this by hand, and I don't know how you do it by hand 20 times over and over and over for every single layer.
Acquired
Hermès
If you've ever been to an Hermes store or you own one of these, you just can't believe that this is done by hand without any of the layers being out of alignment. Because if any of them are out of alignment, you ruin the whole thing and you have to start over. And so if that's not enough, the masks are also hand etched by a craftsperson.
Acquired
Hermès
Their entire job is to know how to translate a design into all the different color layers, which they then hand etch. So the pipeline is designer, engraver, that's an engraver of each mask, colorist, weaver, printer, and then someone to do the finishing.
Acquired
Hermès
And the skills are completely non-transferable. This process doesn't really exist, certainly not at scale at any other company. Actually, I was talking to my wife about this.
Acquired
Hermès
She brought up the idea that it's kind of like Disney Imagineers or almost like Pixar employees, where you specialize in this one crazy little piece of the production process that no other company has your same production process. And the attention to detail is so staggering that once you enter the Hermes universe, then you're sort of...
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Hermès
in that universe for the rest of your career because that is where your trade is still practiced.
Acquired
Hermès
Totally. And you really like all the lore. Part of what makes Hermes Hermes at this point is their callbacks to their own history. I mean, they have 187 years of history to call upon and they do so over and over and over again. And they remix and they name things after stores that used to exist at certain addresses. It's a universe.
Acquired
Hermès
You're exactly right. 12 months now after we did the LVMH episode, we're finally on the tail end of this sort of pandemic bubble of luxury, and we're seeing a lot of these brands take a hit. Hermes is the most insulated of all the luxury brands where they have the sort of least cost-sensitive clients.
Acquired
Hermès
It's interesting you say Hermes owns this color. So you are correct that Hermes has selected a non-Pantone color. But what Hermes tries to do is say, well, we own orange. We can't be nailed down by a Pantone specific code. We own orange more broadly. And they've actually gone head to head with the EU. And this has gone to court where it's been determined that, no, you can't own orange.
Acquired
Hermès
And so what they've done is they've actually leaned into this where there is a classic Hermes orange, but it presents differently on each of the leathers. You know, they have 10 different leathers or something like that that they work with. When they dye those leathers, it presents a little bit differently. And so they sort of have this...
Acquired
Hermès
Sure, there's a digital perfect representation of the color of classic orange, but there's this whole spectrum of the way that it shows up on leather. And they've sort of even further kind of winked at all of us by creating five or six other oranges. They have Hermes Fieux, which is sort of the fire. They have Hermes Sanguine, which is sort of this red hot orange like lava.
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Hermès
Or they have the Hermes Moutard, which is sort of their mustard. And each of these is a little bit of, I think it's to continue to assert that we own the whole spectrum of oranges, but it's definitely to be able to stay current, stay present, encapsulate the theme of a season because every year they sort of pick a theme. And so they play with their oranges a little bit
Acquired
Hermès
to evoke the whimsy that they want from this year's theme yeah there's this sort of like you know meta level or like corporate level playfulness to this too we own all the oranges totally the Hermes oranges are almost like to continue the Disney analogy it's almost like the people that go to the park and look for the hidden mickeys it's a way to even more deeply participate in the Hermes universe
Acquired
Hermès
And they are, these patterns, you know, they're just as intricate as the scarves. There's less storytelling that happens in the tie. The scarves tend to be something you could frame and put on the wall and look at in 16 different ways and the story behind it. But it's still, I mean, when you look at it, you kind of can't believe that it was hand screen printed.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, it's to intentionally... ground the brand in history, in something that they were a part of that is only theirs because nobody else starting today is going to have that as a part of their history. They're leaning into the thing that makes them unique, special, the almost like defensible, durable asset that they have is that they participated in that era that has a nostalgia about it.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, and art is exactly the right way to put it. There is no utility to these displays, and these displays, much like any advertising that you see of Hermes today, it's not about the product. It's about how you feel.
Acquired
Hermès
So I think this is an interesting place to revisit this idea that we talked about on the LVMH episode of luxury versus premium, where premium means you pay more and you get more utility out of a given product. I pay for a bigger storage space on my iPhone and I get more utility out of that. I can store more photos. Luxury means you pay more literally because it doesn't create more utility.
Acquired
Hermès
We finally did it here on Acquired. Your AP European history class has now merged with business history. We're covering Napoleon.
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Hermès
It is either more pleasing to you intrinsically for the feeling, or it's an extrinsic signal where you are signaling to others that you have the means to spend on this item even though it doesn't provide more utility. It's a sort of despite rather than a because. But art, it does fall on this spectrum. Art is like luxury taken to its logical extreme. It has actually zero utility.
Acquired
Hermès
A Birkin bag is a piece of art, but at least it also carries your stuff around. Luxury products are this interesting midpoint between extreme functionality, but also artwork. And so when you buy an Hermes product, you aren't just buying the product, you're buying a piece of art, a piece of their heritage. a feeling that connects you to the maker and the place it was created.
Acquired
Hermès
You're trying to buy a piece of Hermes' heritage and reputation and hoping to adopt it as a part of you, as a part of your identity. And you are seeking, whether it's conscious or not, to let other people know about this too. And you're not necessarily trying to signal it to everyone, but you do want to signal it to the right people who would appreciate it.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, you're taking a piece of that dream with you, and it's almost a daily reminder of the dream that you're now participating in. Right. Or features. Right. Exactly. You're out of the feeds and speeds world. You are not being comped against, well, this other purse is much cheaper and serves the same function.
Acquired
Hermès
Now we have bundled in the function of the object and an unevaluable... Priceless feeling. A priceless feeling. And so now we can sell the goods for whatever we want because it's impossible to know the value of that second component that we've bundled in.
Acquired
Hermès
And it's almost like as she's exiting a building and it's it almost seems like it's like a paparazzi type photo.
Acquired
Hermès
And there is so much to say about these bags and how they're crafted and the lore around them and the supply and demand and the Econ 101. But before we get to that, this is the perfect time for another story about ServiceNow. ServiceNow is one of our big partners here on Season 14 and is really an incredible company.
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Hermès
And that story is really the story of their CEO, Bill McDermott. When he took over in 2019, the idea that this just 15-year-old company would be bigger than Nike or Pfizer soon was insane. ServiceNow was the leader in enterprise IT automation. But what Bill has done since, like we talk about all the time on the show, is evolve that product into a true solution for the entire enterprise.
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Hermès
Bill's story is great. He started his career at age 17 in a very different business. He bought his local corner deli in working class Long Island.
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Hermès
And Bill realized that the kids, like him, who hung out at the store, they weren't coming there for the product. Sure, they wanted food, but it wasn't about the sandwiches. It was about hanging out with your friends. That was the solution. Now, this was the 1970s. Bill starts installing arcade cabinets, Pac-Man, Space Invaders, everything we talked about on our Atari and Nintendo episodes.
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Hermès
And guess what? Kids spend way more time there, and Bill makes way more profits than just selling sandwiches.
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Hermès
So after college, Bill joins the tech world in sales, rises through the ranks at Xerox, and eventually becomes CEO of SAP. But he's always bringing that mindset. Why are my customers really here? So when he joined ServiceNow in 2019, he takes them from, oh, you can make my IT function better to you can digitally transform my entire company.
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Hermès
So if you want to learn more about the ServiceNow platform and see how it can transform your business, go over to servicenow.com slash acquired or click the link in the show notes. And when you get in touch, just tell them Ben and David sent you. Okay, David, so Life Magazine, the Kelly bag, it's out. So this thing must sell like hotcakes, right? Well, yes and no.
Acquired
Hermès
And to your point, I keep saying it's launched. It's not really launched. They just rebrand to the Kelly bag. But when the Kelly bag is formally launched, it's really expensive. It's a nine hundred dollar handbag in the 50s, which today is ten to twelve thousand dollars. approximately the price of a Kelly bag today.
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Hermès
So it comes out as this thing that is completely ridiculous and inaccessible price-wise. So the people who are buying it are the Grace Kellys of the world, and there's not really this stratified class below that that's got this huge amount of purchasing power.
Acquired
Hermès
So, no, handbags do not immediately become a huge part of the business, or I should say the dominant, whatever it is today, six or seven times larger than silk part of the business right away.
Acquired
Hermès
So David, 1821, you know, pretty rough time out in the world. Do you know who was born in this year, 1821, and was also an orphan? Ooh. We have talked about them on Acquired.
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Hermès
Which is crazy to say, right? I remember this moment in the Porsche episode. You're like, no, come on. Porsche skinnied down the entire lineup to only making the 911 because they couldn't justify any of the other products and the whole company was a freaking mess. Hermes is not quite in those dire of straits, but I mean, they have the ingredients of Hermes that we knew today.
Acquired
Hermès
They've got the Kelly bag. They've got the orange box. They've adopted the logo. They've got the scarves. They've got the scarves. They have these small workshops where they make everything, but it's not working yet.
Acquired
Hermès
This is an important distinction between Hermes and all the brands you just named. They come from the world of couture and of fashion and of cutting-edge, in-your-face, risky art. And Hermes comes from, I mean, mind you, by this point, they're already 120 years old, 130 years old. They come from the world of leather and horses and durable goods that stand the test of time. And frankly, it's
Acquired
Hermès
styles that stand the test of time. It's not how creative and crazy can we be. They talk about it as responsible growth. What's the smallest amount that we can move from our current compass in order to do what our clientele wants while staying true to our roots? It's a rejection of risk and almost an embrace of history.
Acquired
Hermès
So it's super different than most other luxury brands, which, as you point out, come from fashion.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. And David, this is probably a good time to share who we chatted with in preparation from this episode and his observation about Hermes.
Acquired
Hermès
Louis Vuitton himself. Ah, he will also come up here in a minute. 20 years younger than Thierry Hermes, but also an orphan.
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Hermès
Absolutely. When Domenico De Soleil and Tom Ford and that team rejected Bernard's takeover and managed to not become a part of LVMH. And obviously then Domenico and Tom Ford left to start Tom Ford after that.
Acquired
Hermès
Right, that Domenico helped us understand about Hermes is they have been so protective of their brand and this unbelievable steward. They're so careful at how they've chosen to deploy the brand. They make sure that the mystique is always there. They don't violate the promise. They never cut corners. They have been...
Acquired
Hermès
above board in their brand promise and keeping that promise with customers for over 100 years. And that is a strength and a weakness. It's a strength as long as you learn how to employ it as a strength. In the world of fashion, it's butting heads. Yeah, it's antithetical to fashion. Yes, exactly.
Acquired
Hermès
Well, today I will tell you that Hermes has a corporate policy of no consultants. And now I know where that came from.
Acquired
Hermès
Wow. So the recommendation was to come in and destroy everything that makes you special and follow the playbook that everyone else is running.
Acquired
Hermès
And isn't it amazing? You would think the best person out there to brilliantly come up with both the business strategy and the creative element is probably not your direct descendant. Right. Probably not your nepotistic family member. That's not the best search process to run, and yet it works. There's something about the – I don't think it's like this magical bloodline.
Acquired
Hermès
I think it is a deep understanding of the tradition of the business, of exactly what type of sort of chutzpah the team has to rally and take on, having the political clout to find the right people and empower them to make the change. to have a sixth sense for where you sit in the marketplace versus competitors and what people may want out of your brand next.
Acquired
Hermès
It's all the intangibles that come from growing up in the business make you able to be the right person to transform it.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, especially crazy considering they both came from nothing. These people who would create the monikers of the elite, of what would go on to be the symbols of wealth and nobility, came from nothing and were orphans and at their greatest aspirations were craftspeople for the elite. They were almost servants.
Acquired
Hermès
You know, it's funny. I called it a sixth sense. I think the right way to describe it is actually a je ne sais quoi about what you sort of absorb from those.
Acquired
Hermès
Shut down your shop, where they still today make Birkin and Kelly bags by hand, one artisan at a time, in the most famous address in all of luxury and fashion, Nutso.
Acquired
Hermès
We've talked too many times without actually talking about the saddle stitch. It's time to actually talk about saddle stitching. So listeners, you might be wondering, why do they keep saying this? What does it mean? Saddle stitching is an amazing technique that Hermes uses for every single bag that they make. It can either... I can't tell if this is true or not.
Acquired
Hermès
It can either only be done by hand or until recently only be done by hand. But... It is a far more effective, high-quality, and durable form of stitching relative to the typical machine-sewn stitching that you're thinking about right now, where the same thread goes through one needle and it goes up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. So how does it work? So there's something called a horse that goes between your legs, and the horse holds two pieces of leather together. The whole point of the saddle stitch is to sew two pieces of leather together. So you first punch little holes in the leather using likely a pricking iron as your method of doing this. And if you're good, you don't prick all the way through.
Acquired
Hermès
You just poke a little hole with your pricking iron or all partway through. So that way you don't poke too big of a hole. You only end up pushing exactly a hole the size of your needle and thread through.
Acquired
Hermès
And you can always tell if you're looking at something and it's stitched and there's these big freaking holes and then there's this thin thread that's moving through and there's space between the thread and the leather. You know what kind of craftsmanship went into that. If it almost looks like the stitch vanishes into the leather and you're like, is there even a hole there?
Acquired
Hermès
It's hard to even see how this was done. That is a saddle stitch. So you take your pricking iron or your awl, you poke the hole or the partial hole. So there's a lot of muscle memory involved in this. You then pass one needle through going, call it from the right to the left side. And then you have a second needle... On the other end of the thread. So one thread, two needles. Yes.
Acquired
Hermès
That you pass through the other direction. And so what you've done as you pull both of them through... is created this incredibly strong sort of interlocking mechanism there's tensile force going in both directions yes if it gets ripped you're not at risk of the whole thing pulling out and your saddle or your bag falling apart you just lose that one stitch and that one stitch can be repaired.
Acquired
Hermès
And so the only way for you to unravel something that is saddle stitched together is to individually go through and cut every single stitch. Yeah. Compare that to most products that you own. Yes, this literally provides high utility if you're in an equestrian jumping competition or if your bag needs to hold something that really needs a lot of protection and can't fall through.
Acquired
Hermès
It's almost like it started with real necessary utility because something life-threatening could happen. Now it's just massively overkill for everything that is saddle stitch, but you appreciate the craft behind it. There are very few people who are in a life or death circumstance that are dependent on their stitch holding true.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. And something that made this really special for hundreds of years, if not still, is that it had to be done by hand. So if you want something of this quality, this gets this interesting idea. Is handmade stuff better? Well, not necessarily. And Excel even says this in an interview. He says in 2019, today, hand stitching is the highest quality. So machines are a non-negotiable.
Acquired
Hermès
When the quality of a machine stitching gets better than hand stitching, we will do it. We are not a museum. And David, this is where you're getting your we are not a museum quote from. But it really gets to this element of why are handcrafted goods desirable?
Acquired
Hermès
Well, in this case, it literally creates something higher quality, more durable, certainly more aesthetically pleasing since when done well, you can't see that hole in between the thread and the leather. It's a pretty special process. And for everyone who's sort of wondering, okay, but what does the rest of creating one of these bags look like?
Acquired
Hermès
Start to finish, a Kelly bag, and we'll talk about Birkin in a little bit, but similar story, is made by one craftsman. So one craftsman starts with... 36 unique pieces of high-quality leather. As much as possible from the same animal and matched exactly. Yes, exactly.
Acquired
Hermès
And so it's not sourced from all these different places all over the world and one person's responsible for the bottoms and someone else is responsible for the straps. It is one craftsman that takes these 36 cuts and stitches it together. It takes 20 hours. And this is over the course of a few weeks to create this. So... One person assembling it all, putting the fasteners on it, stitching it.
Acquired
Hermès
This takes two years to learn how to do before you are allowed to create one for the first time.
Acquired
Hermès
So this knowledge is passed from generation to generation, and Hermes refers to this as the savoir-faire, or the know-how or the expertise about the materials and the exceptional technique that's transmitted from one craftsperson to another.
Acquired
Hermès
Do you know, David, and I'll stop after this, but I thought this was pretty funny. Have you read the annual report, the 600 page document that they release once a year? I have to admit, I have not read it cover to cover. You did more of the history and I did more of this. But I've read large sections of it. I was reading it. I found myself laughing at how often savoir-faire was used in the prose.
Acquired
Hermès
Every other paragraph, they just sort of throw in a savoir-faire. 133 times savoir-faire is referenced in the Hermes registration document.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, fair. But I think the takeaway is real, that this knowledge is transmitted from one generation to the other in the very same way that it was from father to son all the way back at the founding of the company. And that is how they scale production. And we'll put a pin in that and come back to it later.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, that's true. They have 15, this is flashing Florida today, 15 dedicated repair shops worldwide, and they mend 120,000 pieces a year. Wow. Amazing.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, it's nuts. It's completely insane. And the people who don't work for Hermes, your options are in the dozens. If you go as a customer and you want something like a saddle-stitched bag or wallet or something like Hermes would make in that traditional sort of pre-war, early 20th century fashion... There aren't that many other artisans out there. Hermes employs 7,000 of them.
Acquired
Hermès
I don't know how many other ones there are, 1,000, 2,000. And it's not like Hermes has cornered the market. They're hiring more people and training them as fast as they can. They're trying to preserve this market that otherwise would have entirely been zero. It's a pretty crazy thing that they've managed to scale, even to the scale that they're at.
Acquired
Hermès
Welcome to Season 14, Episode 2 of Acquired, the podcast about great companies and the stories and playbooks behind them. I'm Ben Gilbert.
Acquired
Hermès
And it doesn't cost them anything to do that because, I mean, on the one hand, you just say they're being a kind person and gave so much to your house for so long. On the other hand, this is the CEO of Hermes. Right. And I think it's important to realize these individual craftsmen are entirely non-competitive with Hermes. It's a completely different value proposition to the customer. Right.
Acquired
Hermès
When you're buying Hermes today, you don't start from a place of, you know, I think I want some of the very best sewn leather goods I can find. Let me evaluate the whole landscape of people who could deliver that for me, and then I'll decide which maker to go with.
Acquired
Hermès
Either A, you're doing that and you are a person who knows about a bunch of individual leather craftsmen, which is rare, or B, you actually just want to buy something from Hermes and there's not any evaluation going on. And maybe there is between big luxury brands, but probably not. The value proposition is not you have a need for a leather good and you can bake off all the competitors.
Acquired
Hermès
I.M. Pei, famous from a number of things, including previous Acquired episode with Michael Ovitz, designed the CAA building in Los Angeles, designed the Louvre Pyramid.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. Which, by the way, everyone in Paris thought the pyramid was hideously ugly when it first, relative to this 1700s building around it. And over time, now it's become this like iconic triangle pyramid, beautiful signature of the city.
Acquired
Hermès
Well, there was a heyday of department stores. In fact, if you go way back, do you know how Hermes entered the United States? In partnership with Neiman Marcus. Yes. 1930s. Good. Wow. So you did find that.
Acquired
Hermès
And it's a tall order to figure out how to revitalize, rejuvenate, make Hermes relevant for this new era with this new audience. With the same products. This is key. Right. Keeping the same products and not violating everything that Hermes currently stands for. We talked about this on LVMH, the Not Your Mother's Tiffany campaign.
Acquired
Hermès
It's almost like, how do you not insult your current customer base by adapting for the next one?
Acquired
Hermès
And this is how they've adapted for the digital era too. They've come out with like five or six different apps to try to figure out like how do we engage people in the mobile era. And one of the ideas that they had was this app that basically gives you suggestions and all the different ways you could tie a scarf.
Acquired
Hermès
And it's pretty interesting if you can figure out how to coexist alongside cool, fashionable, new, cutting-edge things, then you sort of deserve a place in someone's lineup where they say, well... I both am embracing a current trend, but I'm also respectful of the past. I also found my own way to weave this high class, high status thing into the rest of my image.
Acquired
Hermès
And I think that especially at their price points, they're serving someone who wants to raise one hand and say, I look cool and raise the other hand and say, I'm classic. Yeah. Well, I'm classic and I have the money to spend on things that are very price anchored. Everyone knows what a Kelly bag costs.
Acquired
Hermès
And like, it's gone up a little bit, but Hermes has very high price point products that stay approximately that price forever.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. Their daily driver is a Bentley because someone else is driving them and they have a Ferrari for when they occasionally want to drive a Ferrari. They'll climb in a saddle occasionally, but mostly they're in the carriage.
Acquired
Hermès
And it's happening in this country-by-country way, which is perfect for a brand like this. Like, they can go to America, and then they will observe the rise of Japan, and then they'll go to Japan in the 90s and 2000s. Then they'll observe the rising upper middle class of China, so they'll go there in present day.
Acquired
Hermès
They can really position themselves as sort of the second mover, where they can sort of watch, see when this wealth class exists somewhere, and then... Set up shop and say, hey, France's whole heritage is now available to you to adopt as part of your persona.
Acquired
Hermès
It's super fascinating that French nobility, fashion, and heritage is universally revered everywhere. And Italian is too, like I would say European generally, but French specifically has an ability to do this in any geography as it develops.
Acquired
Hermès
which is so funny because in interviews with her as the Birkin bag was blowing up or at least getting a lot of attention, an interviewer joked that she was going to be more famous for the bag than for her acting career and her modeling and all that. And she sort of laughed and said, wouldn't that be something? Yeah, right.
Acquired
Hermès
But totally 95%, if not more of the listeners to this podcast will have no idea who Jane Birkin is before this episode.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep. Or at least you know of the Birkin bag. I'd bet 7 out of 10, maybe 8 out of 10 people listening to this couldn't spot it. But if you say a Birkin bag, you sort of know that it's like a unattainably expensive, high-status, hard-to-get handbag.
Acquired
Hermès
By the way, how crazy is it that the Kelly bag was to hide a pregnancy and the Birkin bag was designed to carry baby bottles and... Baby forward.
Acquired
Hermès
You know what we should do? We should come out with a $15,000 diaper bag. Right, right, right.
Acquired
Hermès
And she doesn't know who he is at first. It's the funniest thing. Right, right, right. And she says something like, well, yeah, wouldn't that be great if there was a bigger bag that actually closed and, you know, but Hermes doesn't make that. Or she made some comment and he goes, I am Hermes.
Acquired
Hermès
And specifically for her, she sort of fancies herself someone that has a lot of stuff and wants to bring all my stuff with me. So I just need a big bag and it needs to close easily. Fashion be damned, I just need a huge freaking tote.
Acquired
Hermès
And the Kelly has cleaner lines and this sort of beautiful, almost mid-century trapezoidal shape, whereas the Birkin, everything about it kind of screams function.
Acquired
Hermès
There's tons of American wealth being created. People are looking to be a little bit flashier. Now, granted, Hermes is the least flashy of the luxury labels you could adopt, but people know the brand.
Acquired
Hermès
And we are your hosts. Today, we tell the story of a handbag company that won't sell you a handbag. A traditional saddle maker that makes very little of their revenue from saddles. A company that somehow has grown to be worth over $200 billion despite rejecting manufacturing efficiencies and economies of scale.
Acquired
Hermès
And there's a real lore around it that it's hard to get. And it's just like with a kid. If you tell them they can't have something, they want it a lot more. And if you tell your very fancy clientele that you would love to be able to get something for them, but there's just not enough...
Acquired
Hermès
And we don't have it today, but gosh, if you are a great customer of ours and we maintain a relationship with you, let me write down your number. I feel like we may just have something for you soon. Could be a few years, but I'll reach out as soon as we have something. You're an important customer of ours. And if you want to show us you're an even more important customer, please do, by all means.
Acquired
Hermès
I don't think so. I actually had a wonderful Hermes associate that I worked with in the Exxon Provence store, and it was crazy. I mean, we bought basically the most entry-level Hermes products that you can buy in one of their stores. I think perfumes are sold in department stores and makeup. There's some more accessible things, but in terms of the durable goods...
Acquired
Hermès
Started at the bottom, you know, had a delightful time and decided to buy something. And I think we spent an hour and a half and I had the most wonderful service and built a almost friendship with the associate who helped us through the whole process, spending as much time with me as they spent with someone coming in to pick up their Birkin bag.
Acquired
Hermès
It was a crazy, probably that best customer service I've ever received in any retail establishment anywhere. So, no, I don't think I would be a good Hermes sales associate relative to where the bar has been set.
Acquired
Hermès
I have to imagine it's a little bit different experience in the French countryside as compared to... The Stanford Shopping Center. Yeah, I could see that. But back to the Birkenbag, by 2001... It becomes so widely known that there is a waiting list, a sort of almost secret, shrouded in mystery waiting list to get one of these things, that it is the main storyline of a Sex and the City episode.
Acquired
Hermès
And Samantha figures out that there's a way to jump the—I think they use the number five, five-year wait list—
Acquired
Hermès
And she name drops one of her clients, her celebrity clients. in order to say it's actually for them to try to move up the wait list, you know, calamity ensues. They actually figure out that it's for her, not the client.
Acquired
Hermès
I actually haven't watched the episode, but this is a cultural touchstone for the Birkin going from something that is sort of whispered about in handbag circles and well-known by the wealthy elite to something that is now a very well-known phenomenon, which is Good luck ever getting a Birkin bag.
Acquired
Hermès
And, you know, the crazy stories about the most expensive one ever selling for $500,000 on the secondary market and Victoria Beckham having a collection of over 100. And, you know, it's crazy. You know, it has become the Patek Philippe nautilus of handbags. And people look at it almost as an investment.
Acquired
Hermès
And which is crazy, right? It's starting at $12,000 handbag. And what you're saying is that's actually not the constraint.
Acquired
Hermès
And your Hermes SA will not be very happy that you did that because the point of buying one is to own one and use one and appreciate the craft and the work and the beauty that went into this product. And Hermes is not trying to sell it to people that are going to flip it. They're trying to sell it to valued customers who will be people who appreciate the Hermes dream for the rest of their life.
Acquired
Hermès
And there are some very cool stories of people who are transitioning from a craftsperson who makes goods to repairs them later in their career and who receive an item back for repair where they were the original creator of that handbag.
Acquired
Hermès
And that is the coolest, craziest, full circle Hermes moment for any Hermes craftsperson to see this thing that I made that I really wanted to be durable and stand up in the world. How did it actually perform? And to get it back 10, 20 years later and see it has got to be crazy cool. Yes.
Acquired
Hermès
So today, everything we're talking about here, the Birkin bag, the Kelly bag, these $10,000 to $100,000 retail handbags, depending on the type of exotic leather and everything, and the scarcity are referred to as a category of Veblen goods. And so this is essentially the opposite of everything you learned in Econ 101.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. So normally, price is where supply meets demand. So as the price of a good increases, demand for it would go down. A Veblen good is the opposite. As price increases, people actually want it more. So price ends up being a signal that the item is desirable, and thus it stimulates demand. Now, interestingly, David, this is exactly what you were talking about before.
Acquired
Hermès
Birkenbags sell below the market clearing price. Yes. That is another defiance of microeconomics. Normally, things should be priced exactly at the intersection of supply meeting demand.
Acquired
Hermès
So interesting. But... One way to look at this is, oh, it's lost revenue. Their prices aren't high enough because they can only make so many of them, and they're selling them below the price people are willing to pay, so there's money left on the table. But another way to look at it is that it's an investment in the brand.
Acquired
Hermès
So there's a very good Substack writer, 310 Value, that we'll link to in the show notes, who observed...
Acquired
Hermès
The supply-demand mismatch creates scarcity in these two bags, and that scarcity likely creates more demand for the bags, elevates the overall status of Hermes, and creates demand for Hermes' other products as customers buy Hermes' other goods to build a relationship with the company in hopes of being allocated a bag at the below-market retail price.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. And it's not as simple as, well, they just keep raising the prices to make people keep wanting them more. You read that in the luxury strategy, and many luxury brands do that. In fact, Chanel has done it in record amounts the last couple of years with the, I think it's called the Chanel Classic Flap Medium or something like that.
Acquired
Hermès
But that's had this crazy appreciation over the last few years where Chanel is just raising the price. Hermes doesn't do that.
Acquired
Hermès
So it's like 5% above, 4% or 5% above inflation. Which is more, but not an egregious amount. Right. There was a study that found that the Birkin 30, which is one of the sizes in Togo leather, didn't even equal the rate of inflation in the US. I'm trying to figure out what the motivation here is because it's a tremendous restraint. There's no cash grab happening.
Acquired
Hermès
And maybe it's because what bad things would happen to Hermes if they decided, you know what, Birkins are 20 now, not 12.
Acquired
Hermès
And they sell a lot of them. So like that actually would be a lot of profit dollars. Right.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. The Wall Street Journal estimated in 2020 that there's about 120,000 of the combined Birkin and Kelly created each year. So 120,000 bags a year, I mean, if you decide that you want to make another 8,000 of pure profit on each bag, That is tempting, and I think it actually says a lot about Hermes' obsession with conservatism, that they don't meaningfully increase the price.
Acquired
Hermès
The Kelly is not far above its original 1950s price, inflation-adjusted. I think the Birkenbag, the retail price was around $2,000 when it launched in 1984, so call it... maybe $6,000 inflation adjusted. So, you know, you're looking at maybe twice the price that it launched at on an inflation adjusted basis.
Acquired
Hermès
So I guess the point I'm making here is I think we should keep in the back of our mind the rest of the episode this question of why doesn't Hermes raise the prices? They're already getting the benefit either way of the sort of trickle down of people participating in the Hermes ecosystem to hopefully get the call one day. So why not make it even more expensive when you do get the call?
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. Okay, so 1984, Birkin release, doesn't sell well for the first five years, then it becomes this cultural touchstone and gains steam every year after that.
Acquired
Hermès
Correct. It has to be like a Taylor Swift concert in order to instantly... I actually think it's a reasonable comp that like her concert was a extremely scarce... brand new product priced at an extreme premium that did sell right away because the product had so much of the brand in it.
Acquired
Hermès
Like you knew exactly what you were going to get from going to the Taylor concert because you're extremely familiar with the brand. But it's not necessarily well understood that the Birkin equals Hermes in the way that the Arras tour equals Taylor Swift.
Acquired
Hermès
Every single one of those family members... most valuable asset in their entire net worth is their privately held Hermes stock that nobody can really put a price tag on. But it's just sort of sitting there in everyone's mind of like, it sure would be easier to live my life if I knew that this 90% of my net worth actually were something that I could access.
Acquired
Hermès
And an even split, that's $25 million a person. I'm pretty sure it's the most valuable thing that any of them owns.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. But before that, now is a great time to share some new news about our longtime friend of the show, Vanta, the leading trust management platform. Vanta, of course, automates your security reviews and compliance efforts. So frameworks like SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, and HIPAA compliance and monitoring.
Acquired
Hermès
Vanta takes these otherwise time-consuming and incredibly resource-draining efforts for your organization, makes them fast and simple.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes. Vanta takes care of all of that for you. No more spreadsheets, fragmented tools, manual reviews to cobble together your security and compliance requirements. It is a one single software pane of glass that connects you to all of your services via APIs and eliminates countless hours of work for your organization.
Acquired
Hermès
They even launched a bunch of AI capabilities in the last year to make this even simpler and more powerful than before. They now integrate over 300 external tools and even enable customers to build private integrations with their internal systems.
Acquired
Hermès
Yep, Vanta scales all the way from seed stage startups to large enterprises. So if your company is ready to automate and streamline security reviews like 7,000 other customers, go back to making your beer taste better and head to vanta.com slash acquired and just tell them that Ben and David sent you.
Acquired
Hermès
And thanks to our friend Christina, Vanta's CEO, all acquired listeners get $1,000 of free credit at vanta.com slash acquired. David Rosenthal, let us return to Bernard Arnault. It's been 12 months. It's been too long. I've been wanting to hear the other side of this story.
Acquired
Hermès
Which is interesting. You say he spotted Hermes. It wasn't hard to spot. The interesting thing is not that he realized it was the crown jewel of luxury. It was that he realized that the crown jewel of luxury could be worth 20 to 30 times as much as it was already worth.
Acquired
Hermès
And by the way, when David and I are referencing these Axel interviews, it's one interview. He's made a random appearance here and there, but he has done one long form on stage interview and it is fantastic.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. So that really illustrates the point you were making earlier that the creative and the business sides of the house are one side of the house.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. He did that internship, his sort of five-year apprenticeship, but then he left, right?
Acquired
Hermès
Wow. So he is an expert in corporate structure. Yep. And he's an expert on this pretty interesting luxury market in the next 20 years, China.
Acquired
Hermès
Which, listeners, you should know, jewelry is not an important part of the Hermes business. It's one of the 16 métiers. They don't even break it out in earnings. It probably rolls up under other Hermes sectors because I don't think it's under watches and I don't think it's under ready-to-wear accessories. All of other is 12%. So I'm going to guess this thing is like 1% to 3%.
Acquired
Hermès
Which that's 43% of the business. And I think at the time it was closer to 50%. Yes.
Acquired
Hermès
And at least in retrospect, they try to make this seem like not a big deal that a non-family member took over as CEO. They sort of bill it as... Well, they needed someone to look after the business in the interim period before the family was sort of ready to have the next heir.
Acquired
Hermès
Oh yeah, this is so interesting, listeners. If you listen to other coverage of Hermes, you will hear this story.
Acquired
Hermès
Great for business. These are like the disruption waves that enabled him to create a business.
Acquired
Hermès
The family and the board is so aligned that no one even asked a question about this. They just stood and gave applause. And here's how this went on a meta level, listeners. I heard this story. David heard this story. And David texted me at one point and was like, isn't this an odd story? And I was like, what do you mean?
Acquired
Hermès
And we sort of realized, oh, this is not ever told by any of the family members or company executives anywhere. It's just sort of out there. And the company is not secretive. They love telling these legendary Hermes stories. Yeah, and they've got a 600-page document they release once every year that clearly lays out their entire strategy.
Acquired
Hermès
They produce documentaries interviewing their artisans, showing videos of their factories. So it rings a little bit odd. It's like, okay, well, why are they not telling this story given how often it's bantied about?
Acquired
Hermès
For $150? And they're making enough of it that it's flying off the shelves? What company is this? How on earth did this happen?
Acquired
Hermès
It's almost like when I was sitting there watching Wonder Woman 84, and I was just so appalled at what I was watching that on this meta level, it occurred to me like, the story here isn't the plot of this movie. The story here is how do you have such a... process failure at Warner Brothers where this thing was let out the door. That is a failure of creative leadership.
Acquired
Hermès
And that is what you have going on with a $150 canvas tote bag after 175 years of successful Hermes brand stewardship.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. This is like the weird stuff going on at Nike when they were buying, you know, Converse was the good example, but Starter. And it was almost like they didn't realize, oh, we should be concentrating our firepower behind our one hero brand. They were trying to create the constellation of weak brands.
Acquired
Hermès
Now, one argument, you know, bootmaker John Lobb and all these other companies that they either bought in whole or in part, it became important for them to own their key supplier relationships.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, especially in watches, where they actually fairly recently took a 25% position in the company that makes the movements to make sure that they have enough supply coming to them. But that wasn't all of what they were doing. They were also buying other brands.
Acquired
Hermès
a company so obsessed with craft and a reputation for quality that they have stayed independent while every other luxury brand has merged into conglomerates. That's right, listeners. Today, we tell the oldest story we have ever told here on Acquired, older than Standard Oil or The New York Times. This company dates back to 1837 in Paris, France, the crown jewel of the luxury industry, Hermès.
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah. If they made an Hermes edition Leica camera with a... They did? I should probably look into that.
Acquired
Hermès
It reminds me of when the New York Times did all of this with all the TV stations in the 90s, too. It's almost like every company that ever thinks it's a good idea to start buying up other brands is wrong.
Acquired
Hermès
I remember Louis Vuitton's key client was the Empress Eugenie. Is Hermes the same client?
Acquired
Hermès
Yeah, that's such a good point. It's funny, I have a playbook theme called Selling a Sense of Place to Those Outside It. The numbers behind this are crazy. Today, 76% of their production is in France and 85% is sold outside of France.
Acquired
Hermès
First of all, 76% of production in France is kind of incredible, the fact that they do this with all these different workshops that are sort of scattered around the country.
Acquired
Hermès
But yeah, the incredible French history that is encapsulated by the brand and the French nobility and the French sense of place, it really is just an intangible connection to the culture that is lusted after everywhere in the world. Why on earth would you throw that away when that really is the essence of your core asset?
Acquired
Hermès
Which I think is quite impressive. Absolutely. The fact that they were able to link arms like this and say, in the face of someone trying to make you and all your relatives collectively a multi-billionaire in liquid cash. It's kind of incredible to link arms and manage to rebuff it. Totally.
Acquired
Hermès
Which, hey, game recognize game. That's a great point. He's got a point. If you want liquidity, I mean, this is the trade-off you make.
Acquired
Hermès
Which is so funny because that is still, in some ways, both of their legacy today. Yeah.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. And all it takes is one weak link or probably a few weak links because the ownership is so divided into tiny chunks by this point. Six generations in, it's pretty peanut buttered around. But still.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. I cannot be the last. And it would kind of suck to be the second or the third. Right.
Acquired
Hermès
Dude, you and I should contribute. We should make an A51. Even though it's completely unnecessary, it just feels right for acquired. I think you and I can each maintain 24.5% stakes, but A51 really should...
Acquired
Hermès
It's so interesting. I wonder if you actually can structure articles of incorporation to say under no circumstances can this entity sell what it owns. Because normally what you would do is say like it requires a vote of unanimous from the board of directors, blah, blah, blah. But that leaves you vulnerable to the board of directors getting lobbied and convinced.
Acquired
Hermès
And so I wonder exactly, I mean, this is not a public document, so we can't really know, but I wonder how airtight can you really make something and how irreversible?
Acquired
Hermès
They're like, Bernard, you will be dead when this expires. That's exactly what that is.
Acquired
Hermès
Which we should say, listeners, in case you don't know, there's a lot of stories floating around in the press right now that Nicholas Puesh is going to give half of his stake in Hermes, which represents something like a little under 3% to his Gardner or like his ex-Gardner, who's now like 5%. 51. Nobody knows his name. Nicholas does not have children or heirs or other heirs. Right.
Acquired
Hermès
So there's a press story right now that just shy of 3% of Hermes could be given to the family gardener.
Acquired
Hermès
Whoa. Okay, that's significant. I wonder how this Gardner thing is going to play out.
Acquired
Hermès
The fact that they actually rebuffed this offer and that Bernard sold down his stake is crazy.
Acquired
Hermès
So massively appreciated stock. They basically created value out of nowhere here. This billions of dollars landing in Bernard's personal bank account, he has created that money out of nowhere. Right.
Acquired
Hermès
he had this Russian doll structure where he owned a slim majority of an entity that owned a slim majority of an entity that owned a slim majority. And so he was able to generate a bunch of liquid cash from all the minority shares that he sold off, but he still got to control Dior, LVMH, Group R, R&O, because he was technically the majority owner of each of them.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. Hermes is deeply rooted in French history, in Parisian history, and really a key part of how France as a nation has the identity that it has today.
Acquired
Hermès
It's crazy. And the reason why no one's a loser here and everyone's a winner is because Hermes truly is the crown jewel. It is such an unassailable, exceptional business. The last 12 months, it did $14 billion in revenue, $5.7 billion in operating income. They have a 71% gross margin and a 44% operating margin. It's a software business that doesn't need any R&D.
Acquired
Hermès
Yes, that is absolutely right. There is a quote that I want to start with for the Excel Dumas era, which is possibly the best articulation that I've ever heard of business strategy anywhere. And he did it in the interview that we were talking about. So he says, every decision that we make has got some reverse effect, which I think is like a French translation for trade-off.
Acquired
Hermès
So every decision we make has got some trade-off. There's something I really like about strategy in Michael Porter. Strategy is accepting that you are doing something better than the other, and the other is doing something better than you. You have to pick your fight. I'm always a little bit disappointed when I see someone on my team say that we do everything at the same time. Great.
Acquired
Hermès
That doesn't happen in real life. You have to pick your fight. And Hermes picks their fights better than anyone.
Acquired
Hermès
This is a dead art in the world. And Hermes manages to crank out hundreds of thousands of products that otherwise would only be created by individual makers with no infrastructure and no brand. And it'd be really hard to discover them. And frankly, they would all just go out of business. Most of them go out of business anyway.
Acquired
Hermès
Right. You have a global brand now, like you need to figure out how to serve the demand for your brand.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
What about nuclear, Mr. President? Yeah. So let me just give you a statistic on this. China's building 150 nuclear reactors, and they're only spending about $2,500 a kilowatt. In the U.S., we're not building any, and our cost to build them is about $10,000 a kilowatt. And China's about to build as much capacity as 20% of the total U.S. production in nuclear.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
We clearly have a problem here in nuclear.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
President Trump, I wanted to ask you a question about Roe v. Wade, you promised your base that you would overturn Roe v. Wade, you added three people to the Supreme Court, and you delivered on that promise. This might be the issue that determines the election. And many people believe it is. Are you going to do a national abortion ban? Would you support that? Yes or no?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Just shifting back to foreign policy for a moment, Mr. President, on the relationship with China, it's funny how Democrats and Republicans seem to have a unified voice and banging the drums on the rise of China. Do you think that war with China is inevitable? And if not, how do we avoid it?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
President Trump, do you think that Fauci and our government funded gain of function research? And do you think we should really be pursuing the investigation deeply into that? And if we did fund gain of function research, what does that say about China? our government and taking ownership of it because a lot of us lost a lot of years kids didn't go to school. And it caused economic damage.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
As you pointed out earlier, the amount of money you had to spend to try to avoid a depression was really severe. And if we funded that, what does that make you think about our government and then Fauci covering it up? If that is in fact true? What does that make you think about our government?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Did he lie to you about the origin?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
But did Fauci lie to you, I guess, is what the American people want to know. Did Fauci lie to you? And if he did, should he be prosecuted?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
The more important point, I think, Mr. President, is we need high-skilled workers in this country. We need to recruit the best and brightest from the world. Every time we get somebody super intelligent from India or Europe, any country, Yeah, and three of the four here are immigrants, the ones without the ties. And we can get these great people into our country.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
And that's a loss for our adversaries and our competitors. And it's a gain for us. But I've never heard you talk about this. Can you please promise us you will give us more ability to import the best and brightest around the world to America.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
RFK says the CIA killed his uncle. Do you believe that?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Promise us you'll come back again.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
You have a prediction for the debate next week. What's going to happen?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Is he in cognitive decline? Do you believe he's in cognitive decline, Mr. President?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
We appreciate it, sir. Thank you. Very appreciate it very much, sir.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Thank you. Thank you, sir.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Wow. That was some hour, boys. What do we think? Let's do a wrap up, huh? Do a little wrap up here.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
J. Cal, what are your big takeaways?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Well, I'm undecided, as you know. We had a limited amount of time with him.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I told you you'd like him.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
If you want me to answer the question, what I'll say is there are some blockers I have that we didn't get to. January 6th, obviously. I did, you know, one of the blockers I have is obviously Roe v. Wade. And I think he handled that question really well. And I think we may have gotten a little bit of breaking news there in terms of him saying he would not do the national ban.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
And I think that's a big concern people have. And I think that's maybe the issue. According to a lot of experts, I'm sorry to sound like Trump, according to a lot of experts, people believe that could be the deciding issue of the election. And so I think he handled it really well by saying the states are going to choose and he's not going to do the federal ban and he believes in the exemption.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Which is what 80% of people want. Right, 80% of people want women to choose.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
That was the part I like best if I'm being giving grads green cards. That's like, such a good breaking news, too, by the way, I think we elevated the discussion about immigration beyond the wall and into recruitment, which is what I have been trying to do on this podcast for a couple of years here now. So to hear the president say, I will do that for you, because I want that. That to me,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Faber, what's your take on him? You haven't come out and said who you're voting for, but this is your first time interacting with him. albeit for 50 minutes in a group setting, but what's your impression?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
It's a difficult forum because we can't go deep and ask responsive questions and we don't have a lot of time and there's four of us trying to ask questions. So the format is a little difficult to get to the heart of the matter on some of these complicated topics like federal spending, deficit, debt. Yeah, we need two hours.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, and I think you need to just be able to like hone in on the question, you know, his response on how are we going to reduce kind of the bureaucratic overhead and the wasteful spending and the federal government and he kind of pivoted to the Department of Education. That's 3% of the federal budget. I want to talk about the rest of it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
And you know, we're at it took us 200 years as a country to add a trillion dollars to our federal debt to go from zero to a trillion. And now we're adding a trillion every 100 days. And it's going to take a lot more than just 1% to 3% cuts in spending to get us out of the spiral that we're in.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I also am concerned, I think very rightly so, and I think he acknowledges the concerns that were mentioned by Larry Summers, that tariffs plus tax cuts could lead to serious inflation and economic contraction. Those are really difficult things to do together unless you have a very clear plan for massively cutting spending at the federal level.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
So I don't feel like I got to the heart of the matter on those points. And as you guys know, that's what I care so deeply about. I think we need to fix the machine to be able to do the things we want the machine to do over time. And I'm very deeply worried about that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Do we really buy he's going to do this terrorist thing anyway? Like, it seems like that's a bit of pandering maybe to the voter base. It sounds like a great solution, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
But I don't think he's going to do it. Yeah. Once the economic advisors get together and look at the analysis and what this will do to costs of things, inflation will go up, etc. You know, maybe there's a rethink ultimately on how that's implemented and on what particular slices of the economy it's implemented.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
So I'm sure as you point out, it probably gets toned down for this to, you know, to even become a reality.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, I mean, it's almost exactly going to be the same 6.5 to date from Biden 7.8 trillion.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, he talked about 1929, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I think any modern politician wants to spend because it's popular. I just think it's their nature.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Which is what my follow-up question was, right? I was trying to ask him, can you actually do it as president or not? Like, is there the wherewithal to do it?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I think the other aspect I wanted to see, I'm really glad he talked about de-dollarization. And he mentioned it up front. And so that to me, really resonated, it really rings true to the effect of US spending, US foreign policy. So much of this is driving, and I'm concerned about, right, driving the Saudis into the arms of the Chinese and other foreign adversaries to the United States.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
And I would have really liked to have spent a little time with him on the Saudi relationship, where he sees that headed. how the Saudi relationship will affect the Middle East and how the Saudi relationship could affect the U.S. dollar and dollar reserves around the world.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
But I think he's acutely aware of de-dollarization and foreign reserves in dollars being sold down and that there are serious effects to that. I didn't hear a follow-up on like...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
what the specific responses will be, you know, to the drivers there, which I would have loved to spend a little more time off, what do you think will be the viral moments to come out of this, if any, what do you think the mainstream media or social media will take from this any moments you think we're breaking news or notable?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
If we're going to rebuild trust in our government and institutions, we're going to need a lot more transparency. And if that one's hanging out there, why not resolve it? I mean, did he say he thinks the CIA did it? I think I heard him say that. I think the CIA did it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, we're going to need to see the transcript on that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
He did not say that he thought the CIA was behind the attack.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Well, and then dovetailing that, Sax, the Fauci discussion where he said, I don't trust, I never trusted Fauci. And then kind of pushing it on like, hey, do you think it should be prosecuted? Did we fund it or not? Seems pretty clear. He believes we funded gain of research. His position was, I just didn't want to spend the money, which I appreciate about it. With China. With China, yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah. And so what did you think of that point? Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
He was very respectful, actually. I was very surprised to hear how he respected Fauci and how he framed his response to that question. And I think that says a lot.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
In fairness, he has gone in on people pretty hard over the last eight years.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Let's be clear. He said over again, I will be your retribution. So he may not have said it on this podcast. Did you get any of that in this interview? No, I've just heard him say it 50 times in the last 60 days. But, Sax, where would you like to have seen him be stronger?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Where would you like to have seen him be stronger or different on any of his major positions? What would you, as his advisor, advise him to shift or double down on a bit?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, when he says it would never have happened, like I'm always like, you know, like it would never happen to me. I would like to have a little more of the why. Why do you believe that? And he never gets into the details. He just says that over and over.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I mean, I didn't get to ask, but one of the things I had chewed up was, I just think you've done a phenomenal job in talking to people who most people feel are difficult people. people to get along with, you know, Kim Jong Un, Xi, Putin.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I think it's the superpowers talking to dictators, despots, people who are cantankerous and difficult, and he always seems to get the better of them, or at least get the He at least gets our interests as Americans aligned with whatever their interests are. So I think- J.K., let me ask you- Give him an A plus on that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, I don't want to be insulting. I'm asking, like in the past, you've said that he was embracing the dictators and he was kowtowing to them. I think you've said comments like that in the past where- No, I don't know if I said- Yes, or something that felt like he was more trying to embrace and engage with them in a way that's like, why would you?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I've always felt you should talk to everybody all the time. You know, that's not my issue with Trump. You know, it's never been my issue with him. I think that's a superpower. The fact that he went into North Korea and stepped over in the DMZ, you saw the look on Kim Jong-un's face. He just, Kim Jong-un just wants a little attention. He wants a little recognition.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
And this idea, like, we're not going to give him any recognition is stupid because if you give him a little recognition, now you're sort of tilting him towards, hey, maybe you could be part of this. Like, maybe you could come to the West and see a movie premiere or come to the NBA finals as opposed to start lobbing, you know, dysfunctional missiles over Japan. Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I love that video. You know that video where they're like setting up the little press shooting in the conference room? Oh my God, that video is so funny.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
The smile on Kim Jong-un's face when Trump says, you want me to go over? Should I go over? Should I do it now? I'll go over. Okay, I'm gonna walk over. And Kim Jong-un is beaming and you're like, he just played him.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I honestly feel like there's a little bit of a blinders to the question, like there's a pivot back to what I've done, what I'll do versus the like, let's actually talk about where we are in the debt cycle. And this is exactly what like history repeating itself. At the time that you take on all the debt, you drive internal conflict. January 6 is a great data point. You drive external conflict.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
We've had two or three wars start in the last four years. How do we reverse those things so that we don't repeat history? And we sat down with Dahlia and we asked him this question, is there a way to not repeat history? And he said, yes, there is. And we talked with Graham Allison about this. And all these guys believe that there's a way to avoid it. There have been moments where
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
We've nearly had the external conflict. And that's why I asked him about war with China. But I want to understand if there is this broader kind of construct of what is going on. Because he hits on all the data points correctly. De-dollarization, increased spending, bloated bureaucracy.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
conflicts around the world without taking it all into perspective and saying man like this is where empires die i guess he does say that right he he does actually highlight exactly what dalio doesn't do what malay does though right like malay has said to the populace that's exactly yeah malay he just needs to take that next malay step and say i will cut half the people working at these places he kind of did say it when it came to education i don't know what your interpretations were gentlemen back to an entrepreneurial economy right allow capitalism i
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I just hope he gets the right people around him, Sax. I mean, I need you in that cabinet.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
No more Giulianis and stupid people. Put smart people around him, not drunks.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
We need a cabinet and advisors on regulation and nuclear, on AI.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, I hope that's right. I pulled up some data going into our conversation. I just want to read this to you guys. Totally off topic, but I just want to say we can cut it out if you want. But construction for the Francis Scott Key Bridge, which is 1.6 miles long, when it was built in 1977 was 141 million bucks, about 740 million in today's dollars.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Today, they're estimating to repair, you know, that's the bridge that collapsed in Baltimore. They're saying it's gonna cost, you know, $2 billion or more to repair that bridge now, you know, 40 years later. California's bullet train project in 2008 was supposed to cost 40 billion. We're 15 years into this thing, we've spent 18 billion.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
They're now asking for 140 billion total to build 171 mile track. That's a billion a mile. Let me just tell you this other fact.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, and China just spent $300 billion to build 16,000 miles of high-speed rail. They're spending $18 million a mile. That's 2% of the cost. of the California high-speed rail system, 2% per mile, we are 50 times more expensive than China. That is where superpowers shift. That is the fundamental premise of the shift that we've seen five, six times in the last 500 years.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
That's the question for the president.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Yeah, I mean, is it just time to privatize all that stuff?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Well, it's layers of...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I have heard conversations that there is an economic argument, I don't know if I buy it, that one of the reasons that they're trying to leave the border open is there is a... low cost labor pool that grows, that actually is is beneficial to economic growth that there's just not enough in the workforce today to like think about the cost of building that railroad in China versus the US.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
You know, the the average income in the US is a couple turns on what it is in China. You can also say you don't want to answer the question. Between the two?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Man, ask this question more specifically. Yeah, honestly.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I think Trump hits on it way more than Biden does. Yeah, he definitely hits on the concerns that I have. I don't know if he has the path that makes me feel like, great, this is going to work. Does Biden? And I think the other thing I worry about is the leadership problem with Trump. Meaning, I don't mean him as a leader in terms of effectiveness, but just this like...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Trump derangement syndrome is not something to be ignored and to be disparaging of the people that we all, you know, that not we all, but people say have Trump derangement syndrome. It's a fundamental like tilting that he does. And he tilts half the people in the country. He tilts them. And I think that that is really, and maybe the other side is true as well.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
No, so that's one argument. Or maybe when he tried, maybe there's a way to use unifying speech instead of divisive speech.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I want to hear Biden face-to-face. I want to have a long conversation.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Maybe it's a different approach and I'm wrong and I'm just referencing the history with him. And I do agree with you that the way he spoke today about people that have been antagonistic about him or to him, like Larry Summers and Fauci. did surprise me, particularly after years of him sending out these tweets every morning about people that are antagonistic about him.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
And it was quite refreshing, honestly, and it felt different. So you know, I will give him credit on that point. I will I will like agree with you on that tax for sure.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
All right, everybody, this has been another amazing episode of the All In podcast. Thank you, David Sachs, for getting President Trump to come on. President Biden, you are, of course, invited to come on. We encourage you to come on. Give us 50 minutes, give us an hour and a half, whatever you got.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
I'm just restating it for the record. By some means, somebody in this group says we should talk to the All In team since they're a top 10 podcast and every other presidential candidate's been on. Who knows? Maybe somebody decides he's going to be able to keep up with the group. I don't think he can keep up. That's the big challenge for the Rain Man, David Sachs.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Shamath Palihapitiya, your chairman, dictator, and the sultan of science, David Rupert. I am the world's greatest moderator. I didn't moderate today. I'm sure I guessed, Sax. Great job. We'll see you next time. Great job, Sax.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Love you, boys. Bye-bye.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Rain Man, David Sax. And instead, we open source it to the fans, and they've just gone crazy with it. Love you, Wes. I'm the queen of... Wet your feet. We need to get merch.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Mr. President, can I just ask on your point about the tax cuts? Larry Summers made a comment the other day, and I thought maybe you could respond to his tweet that the tax cuts coupled with the tariffs that you've proposed would cause a massive—I think he called it the mother of all stagflation—
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
where you would have kind of inflation because of the tariffs, you would have economic decline because more money would start to fund an increase in prices with tax coming down, tax cuts being put in place. Can you maybe just comment on the comment made by Larry Summers and how we implement tax cuts without inflation?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
One of the things we've talked about, President Trump, on this podcast a lot is the deficit. Under your administration, we added close to $8 trillion. Under Biden, it's going to be paradoxically about the same number. Seems incredibly unpopular in Washington to cut costs, but that's something we're going to need to do. What's your plan? And it looks like you're going to win a second term here.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
What's your plan in your second term to control spending? Can you get it under control? Is there the will in Washington to allow you to do that?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
Can you talk about your impoundment authority intention? You mentioned that in the past that you could go in and reduce the bureaucracy and the spend. I always tell people my position going into the election is less than I'm interested in knowing what the government's going to do for me.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
And I'm more interested in knowing what the government's going to stop doing that doesn't do any good for anyone. And there seems to be a lot of that. And I'm really curious to hear, sir, how you think about using the impoundment authority vested in you as president of the United States to reduce some of the bureaucracy, wasteful spending and create accountability.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with President Trump
And what's the you know, is there a team that you've built around you to help build a specific plan on backing out of some of these issues?
Criminal
A Murder in the Forest
So Bruno, he was just a stone that was removed from its place. That's how organized crime works.
Criminal
A Murder in the Forest
No, we always thought he was murdered. We didn't share it with anyone.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Yeah, exactly. This is when management likes to use the leadership principles to be like, eh, disagree and commit on this one. The data-driven principle isn't really applicable here. It can be disheartening for employees.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
It doesn't come up so often. No, I think, I mean, that's kind of the frustrating thing. You know, our Slack is enormous at work. And like in our remote advocacy group, there's, you know, 35,000 people alone that are extremely upset about this.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And, you know, a lot of the sentiment is like, you have this leadership principle and, you know, you want us to be productive, like show us the data and be the best employer. And this is not feeling like that at all.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Well, so you saw on that note, they mentioned people with exceptions. And that's good that that might stay. I mean, one of the big things, which is like a sad reality is in these channels for remote advocacy, it's like people sharing advice on like, hey, like, does this qualify as something I should go talk to HR about?
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And there's actually people in there who's like, full time jobs, besides, of course, the normal job to like give advice on like, Hey, you need to go find these two forms and make sure you have a doctor approved thing and do this. Because otherwise, you just wouldn't know. So like, I, for example, had a medical exemption, because I've got this hand problem I've talked about before.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And then it was up for review after a year. I joined during COVID with being hired remote. And then I was told that I need to come into the office the other week. But then it took somebody on this thread to be like, oh, by the way, there's this hidden secret box you can check on the bottom of this form that will make the thing permanent.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And so I'm super lucky that I got to do that six months ago and then totally forgot about it. And now here we are. Thankfully, I get to hopefully it's uncertain right now. So it's like ongoing conversations. But it's really shitty for everybody involved. And, you know, I always point to like, you know, you can make remote happen. And Oxide's like one of those examples I point to.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
It's like they do hardware and they're remote. Like we're doing purely software over here. Like what's the issue?
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
I won't say anything too bad, but to your point, I assume it's management. When they came out with this announcement, I personally am very vocal and was like, this is what you guys have been doing for the last six months on the S team? We're solving problems over here and you're still thinking about this? We thought we were over this. I guess not.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
The reason I raised my hand initially was I think one of the reasons they keep going back to this is they claim that it's a culture thing and they want to keep the culture of a startup I want to get your take on this, too, because I guess I just, you know, I grew up in an age of I'm born in the late 90s.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
I grew up in the age of the Internet and playing online video games and having communities like I have culture with people that I've never seen in person. Like, is this just like an older CEO thing where they don't think you can have a vibrant culture online and they don't know how to do it? Because I certainly think you can.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Um, so I definitely, I, there's two things. One of them, like I personally, so I work remote. I personally get annoyed when people have to go into the office because usually they'll sign on before they leave. And then we'll get into a conversation about something and they'll be like, Oh, Hey, by the way, I have to, I have to get in the car and drive 45 minutes. So can I call you back then?
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And they're like, can I call you in the car? I'm like, Oh gosh, like we were just getting started on something interesting here. And now you have to commute for an hour. Like I'll talk to you later. Um, So I definitely think, I mean, from everybody I talked to on my team, it's on days when they go to the office, they're like, hey, I'm back at home now. So let's call it here.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Like I'm signing off more solidly. So that's a benefit. But then add in the commute. And I think almost everybody says, you know, I'd rather not commute.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Or I get an email that you were scanning my badges and everything and tracking me with a spreadsheet.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Totally. And if you're the employer, I mean, maybe it's a hot take, but if I can't trust you to work when I'm not, you know, micromanaging you and monitoring you, why do I even hire you? Like you're supposedly a professional and you're supposed to get things done. Like if you can't evaluate me based on work, like I don't even know why we're in this relationship of employer employee.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And, you know, I think you guys mentioned it in your podcast a long time ago about the state of working remote, where now I just prefer people to be at home on calls because there's not background noise. And it turns out that conference room cameras are bad and you can't see facial expressions.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And I actually prefer screen share for looking at people's code and pair programming because, you know, they're not hovering over me or, God forbid, touching my keyboard. So there's just benefits that you don't see like that.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Yeah, I think offices, much like cities, should be inhabited by people who want to be there.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Interessanterweise ist, dass wir diese AI-Tools auch für die Zusammenfassung von Jahresgesprächen oder Quartalsgesprächen inzwischen nutzen. Wir nutzen das für Erstellung von unserem V2Marm. Also das ist bei uns ein Konzept, wo wir unsere Unternehmensvision und Ziele, die wir haben, runterbrechen auf einzelne Methoden. Könnt ihr mal nachgucken.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Das ist eine recht verbreitete Art, quasi Zielsetzungen oder OKRs zu machen. Und das ist inzwischen auch AI unterstützt. Das war immer schwierig. Da musste man sich durcharbeiten durch den Text. Was hat der Chef geschrieben? Was ist für mich anwendbar?
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und da hilft AI echt großartig und ist auch für mich als Führungskraft dann natürlich eine gute Möglichkeit, mir das anzugucken, nochmal neue Digitalisierung Dinge reinzubringen und überall da, wo Sprache im Einsatz ist, wo Worte im Einsatz sind, ist es eigentlich ein großartiger Helfer. Und das muss ich mir auch mal wieder ins Gedächtnis rufen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Man ist so in seinem Rhythmus drin und dann irgendwann denkt man so, ah, okay, ich glaube, ich muss mal einen anderen Weg gehen gerade.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Dann gibt es natürlich bei uns auch aufgrund der Größe und weil wir ein börsennotiertes Unternehmen sind, einiges an Vorgaben, was Data Security, Data Privacy angeht und da gab es recht schnell auch Regeln, Vorgaben und Richtungsweisungen, was wir halt besser nicht zu tun hatten, zum Beispiel Kundendaten halt verwenden und das ist für Presets natürlich schon mal
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Da muss ich ehrlicherweise sagen, nein. Also für mich persönlich ist es so, ich hatte auch so meine Aha-Erlebnisse an der einen oder anderen Stelle. Und ich glaube, das ist so der erste Punkt, dass man im Rahmen eines Trainings oder Enablements die Leute an solche Aha-Erlebnisse heranführt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
dass sie merken, da sitzt eine Maschine letztendlich und ja, es gibt Halluzinationen und trau nicht dem, was das Ding dir ausspuckt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und ich glaube, wie im Straßenverkehr, man kann viel in einem Buch nachlesen und irgendwie ankreuztest und so, aber wenn du an der Kante vom Bürgersteig stehst und der LKW rauscht mit fünf Zentimeter an dir vorbei, dann verstehst du, dass es sinnvoll ist, einen Schritt zurück zu gehen. wenn du an der Ampel wartest.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und ich glaube, diese Erlebnisse, die braucht es manchmal, damit man so das Verständnis bekommt. Bei mir war das so, ich habe quasi für einen Vortrag, brauchte ich eine Biografie. Typischerweise bist du dann gefragt als Speaker, erzähl mal was über dich, vier Sätze bitte. 200 Zeilen sind erlaubt. Und ich war sehr faul und habe gesagt,
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Chat-TPT, bau mir mal einen Speaker, Bio, 200 Zahlen über Philipp Schöne. Und dann hat er es mir erzählt, ich würde bei der München Re-Arbeiten und der Risikoanalyse. Und ich dachte, wie kommt das denn jetzt da drauf? Und habe versucht, dem System beizubringen, dass das nicht stimmt. Und es war sehr überzeugend davon, dass das die hundertprozentige Antwort ist.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und das war so ein Moment, wo ich gedacht habe, okay, jetzt... Das ist doch nur eine Maschine, die da auf der anderen Seite ist. Und Software hat halt ihre Problemchen. Und Mess ist ja auch, wenn man einen Code nutzt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Teilweise kommt was raus, du packst es rein, es kommt sofort ein Fehler, wo man eigentlich erwarten würde, du bist doch ein Computer, du lieferst mir doch jetzt hoffentlich überprüften Code und nicht einen Vorschlag, wo du dann im Nachhinein sagst, oh, tut mir leid. Also es kommt ja quasi dann sogar ein, oh, tut mir leid. Also da hat man ja...
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
haben die Entwickler eine sehr menschliche Komponente eingebaut. Das ist, glaube ich, auch so ein bisschen die Schwierigkeit, dass wir Menschen das nicht mehr so unterscheiden können. Das ist eine sehr unterbewusste Sache, aber ich glaube, uns wird vorgegaukelt, dass da quasi ein Mensch sitzt, der sich dann auch noch entschuldigt und so.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ja, ich glaube, wir müssen die Leute in gewisser Weise da heranführen und trainieren und sie müssen diese Erlebnisse haben. Und ja, natürlich wird es mal einen Fehler geben. Natürlich wird man mal mit einer Annahme reingehen und haut dann irgendwie einen raus, wo man sich einen Industry Point of View gezogen hat und dann sagt der Kunde, das ist ja totaler Quatsch, warum sie das denn her?
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und vielleicht ist es dann ein guter Moment zu sagen, wissen Sie, ich habe mich versucht zu informieren und nimmt das dann einfach mal als Anekdote auf und guckt mal, wie der andere reagiert. Weil ich glaube, das macht es dann am Ende des Tages auch menschlich in gewisser Weise.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Eine sehr, sehr relevante Geschichte, wenn ich mir jetzt vorstelle, ich möchte einen RFX vielleicht mit einem KI-Tool bearbeiten, möchte irgendwie da eine Zusammenfassung bekommen, dann muss ich schon mal drüber nachdenken, ob das kundenbezogene Daten sind und sehr wahrscheinlich sind es die.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Der Abschluss von PII, also persönlichen Informationen, Kundendaten natürlich und auch Intellectual Property Risiken. generieren. Und da ist natürlich, wir als US-Software-Unternehmen sind da sehr sensibel. Unser Legal-Team ist da sehr sensibel. Unser Business-Technology-Team ist da sehr sensibel. Und da gab es sehr schnell Ansagen, was zu tun und was zu lassen ist.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und zurzeit ist das so, ich werde immer wieder gefragt, ich möchte gerne einen API-Key haben für AI-Maschine ABC. Und in dem Moment muss ich immer darauf verweisen, dass wir internen Freigabeprozesse haben. Die IT guckt sich alle dieser Tools an. Die haben da auch eine Taskforce, die das priorisiert anguckt. Nicht alle Tools sind erlaubt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Teilweise sind die nur erlaubt für Einzelpersonen, also nicht in der breiten Masse. Was ja auch ein Thema ist, da wachsen schnell die Begehrlichkeiten. Da sind die über 70.000 Mitarbeiter. Wenn der eine Kollege hat sich jetzt auf dieses Übersetzen spezialisiert, Hat er eine Lizenz dafür? Brauchen fünf andere Leute diese Lizenz auch? Da mache ich mal ein Fragezeichen dran.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und dann kann ich diese eine Person sensibilisieren und sagen, bitte so und so dich verhalten und unter diesen und jenen Voraussetzungen. Es ist natürlich auch so, dass in dem Moment, wo du das einschränkst, die Leute, die sich damit auseinandersetzen, die haben die Begehrlichkeiten. Und die haben die Begehrlichkeiten ja auch aus einem Grund.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und da ist die Linie halt sehr, da wird es schnell grau und da muss man dann schon gucken. Aber es sind alle hier trainiert, es müssen alle ihre Security-Trainings regelmäßig durchführen. Und natürlich gibt es in der IT diverse Maßnahmen, um Dinge zu monitoren, zu blocken und dann auch die Leute nochmal darauf hinzuweisen. Und ich glaube auch, dass es wahrscheinlich in Zukunft noch Maßnahmen gibt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und in diesem Kontext haben wir uns überlegt, wir müssen irgendwie gucken, dass wir die Einzelaufwände der Leute betrachten. Und wir haben ein paar bei uns in der Truppe, die wirklich innovativ unterwegs waren, die richtig coole Ideen hatten, wie wir das in die Breite der Organisation bekommen. Und es ist natürlich auch so, dass wir viele unterschiedliche Skillsets haben. Also ich kann...
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Vor Jahren war Phishing noch ein Riesenthema. Heute verschicken die IT-Abteilungen Phishing-E-Mails, um zu gucken, ob die Mitarbeiter darauf passend generieren. Wer weiß, vielleicht gibt es in Zukunft... Irgendwelche Methoden, um zu gucken, ob die Leute richtig mit den Daten in der KI umgehen, könnte ich mir durchaus vorstellen, einfach um die Leute dahingehend zu sensibilisieren.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und das ist auch kein Geheimnis, viele der großen Unternehmen haben halt Verträge abgeschlossen mit Google, mit Amazon, teilweise auch mit OpenAI, um entsprechendes Handling dieser Informationen abzuschließen. zu regeln und auch zu regeln, was passiert, wenn Informationen dahingehend abfließen sollten, Löschmöglichkeiten etc.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und ich glaube, das ist was, das passiert so ein bisschen im Hintergrund an einigen Stellen, dass sich quasi die großen Unternehmen einfach die Klausel als Papier in die Schublade legen, um die dann im Fall der Fälle ziehen zu können. Ja, ich glaube, das ist auch so ein bisschen ein tip für jemanden, der im Mittelstand unterwegs ist oder der in Deutschland dahingehend unterwegs ist.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Guckt euch das gut an. Es gibt rechtliche Mittelständler, ist abzusichern, informiert euch da und dann seid ihr mit Sicherheit auf einer sicheren Seite und könnt solche AI-Tools auch nutzen. Und es gibt, wie du sagst, es gibt so viele und wenn man den Leuten nichts zur Verfügung stellt, werden sie sich was suchen. Davon bin ich fest überzeugt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Wenn ich anfange, ja, OpenAI zu blocken, dann werden die Leute suchen sich Jasper oder wie auch immer die Dinger heißen an anderen Stellen und benutzen das, weil der Produktivitäts- Zuwachs ist doch in vielen Stellen signifikant und ich glaube, viele unterschätzen gerade so in den deutschen Büros, was da so an repetitiven Aufgaben da ist und was für Möglichkeiten es da gibt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Da kann ich nur appellieren, das sind Presets vielleicht nicht so, aber außerhalb kann ich immer nur appellieren, setzt euch damit auseinander, weil sonst machen es die Leute für euch.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Also wir haben die Diskussion ganz konkret. Es gibt bei uns ein Team aus einem anderen Bereich, was einen vierstündigen Kurs für Prompt Engineering gebaut hat, für Pre-Sales. Und der ist bei uns intern abrufbar. Den kann sich jeder quasi ziehen und kann dann halt da durchgehen. Wir haben ja selber eine
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Eine Trainingsplattform, die wir verkaufen, die nutzen wir natürlich auch intern und da ist dieser Kurs halt verfügbar. Und eine der Aufforderungen halt in diesem Team für AI und Produktivität war halt, guckt euch dieses Promptraining mal an, macht das Promptraining, damit ihr überhaupt wisst, von was ihr redet.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Heute, wenn ich auf mein Team gucke, nicht erwarten, dass jeder einen super Prompt schreibt. Das ist einfach nicht der Fall. Dafür sind die Leute nicht ausgebildet. Der eine oder andere hat ein persönliches Interesse. Dann gibt es mal ein kleines Training hier oder da. Aber das wäre vermessen, wenn ich jetzt...
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Auch die Leute, die gefühlt einen guten Umgang damit haben, einfach um auch einschätzen zu können, wie gut ist der Kurs, macht das Sinn, können wir was rausnehmen, können wir was reinpacken. packen, was für uns spezifischer ist. Es waren sehr generische Beispiele drin. Und das ist natürlich ein Weg, den wir hier nutzen, um die Leute zu enablen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Jetzt ist so ein 4-Stunden-Kurs mit Video und Text ist jetzt vielleicht nicht für jeden was. Ich habe jetzt gerade vor ein paar Tagen diskutiert, ob wir eventuell eine sehr kondensierte Variante machen für die breite Masse, die in Form eines Videos oder Webinars verfügbar ist, um einfach den Leuten so ein
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
wie soll man sagen, so einen Appetizer zu geben und dann auch das Interesse zu wecken und so ein paar grundsätzliche Themen einfach anzusprechen, um zu gucken, dass wir einfach die Basis in der Masse auf so ein gewisses Level bekommen. Bei mir im Team haben wir immer wieder die Möglichkeit auszutauschen mit meinem Kollegen, der ist sehr aktiv, der hat quasi jedes Jahr
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Subject-Meta-Expert, das ist der Eugen bei uns in der Truppe und der experimentiert da viel rum, hat auch ein paar sehr, sehr coole und kreative Ergebnisse erzeugt und zum Beispiel im Rahmen einer Messe hat er da KI-generierte Bilder, haben wir auf Tassen gedruckt, war eine super Geschichte, ist super bei den Kunden angekommen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Der erzählt halt immer wieder so, okay, was habe ich für Ergebnisse erlangt, wo sieht er Probleme, wo sieht er Grenzen und dann gehen wir auch in den Dialog und wenn ein Kollege mal eine Frage hat und eine Kollegin sagt, Können wir eigentlich das so und so machen? Dann sagt er, ja, ich teste das mal aus und ich melde mich.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Weil er sich natürlich das Instrumentarium einfach wesentlich besser beherrscht. Und dann da teilweise auch einfach Beißhemmung da ist, sich da jetzt reinzuknien und das rauszufurbeln. Dann sagt er, ah, okay, sag mir mal, was du machen möchtest. Ich gucke mal, ob das schon möglich ist und mit welchen Mitteln.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und so haben wir im Team bei uns auch so einen Raum geschaffen, einfach um diesen Austausch zu ermöglichen. Und ich glaube, das ist auch so ein guter Schritt, auch bei, egal in welcher Teamgröße, einfach mal auf die Agenda zu setzen und mal zu hören, wo sind denn die Leute? Wo sind denn auch die Sorgen der Leute teilweise? Wir hatten eine Diskussion an anderer Stelle, die Ängste zu nehmen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Wenn ich jetzt höre, da arbeitet ein Tool auf einmal 20, 30 Prozent schneller. Das gibt es seit anderthalb Jahren oder jetzt seit zwei Jahren vielleicht demnächst. Und dann sagt jemand, oh Mist, wenn das in der Geschwindigkeit weitergibt, wie wird sich dann meine Jobrolle verändern? Und auch diesen Teil zu adressieren, das darf man ja auch nicht unterschätzen. Wie ändert sich der Pre-Sales-Job?
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Was für Skills muss ich auf einmal mitbringen? Wird das auf einmal ein wichtiger Skill? Ich würde sagen, ja, ganz klar. Das ist ein wichtiger Skill in Zukunft, sich damit auseinanderzusetzen. Und dadurch wird sich auch inhaltlich was ändern im Pre-Sales-Job. Also wo liegen die Schwerpunkte im Presets in der Zukunft? Das wird sich in gewisser Weise verschieben.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und da wird auch AI, genau wie in anderen Bereichen, und KI wird einen Einfluss haben. Und wissen wir da schon alles?
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
mich hinstelle im Team-Meeting und sage, so, ab nächster Woche machen jetzt hier alle mit unseren AI-Tools diese, jene, solche Aufgabe.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ich würde ihn auf jeden Fall fragen. Also ich würde ihn fragen. Ich gucke bei Einstellungsgesprächen immer so ein bisschen in das Intellectual Curiosity. Und ich würde vor allen Dingen über den Weg fragen wollen, wie setzt sich die Person mit neuen Inhalten auseinander? Also wie bist du da rangegangen?
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Mir geht es gar nicht so sehr um die Ergebnisse, sondern was hast du für eine Einstellung zum Lernen von neuen Inhalten? Und das wäre das, was das bei mir triggern würde. Das würde ich fragen. Ob die Person jetzt das gut machen kann oder nicht. Also Prompt-Engineering kann man aus meiner Perspektive trainieren. Genauso wie wir Software trainieren können.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und meistens sind Software-Firmen sehr gut da drin, technische Inhalte zu vermitteln. Und von daher habe ich da auch keine Sorge, dass wir in der Lage sind, Prompt-Engineering gut zu trainieren oder gute Tools zu haben, die das uns abnehmen. Die Bibliothek, da reden wir in sechs Monaten, vielleicht in zwölf Monaten nicht mehr drüber, weil es dann irgendwo ein Tool gibt, was uns das abnimmt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Jetzt fallen uns noch die Haare aus, aber das wird irgendwann erledigt werden. Was ich meine ist, du kannst ja die Einstellung der Pre-Seller nicht ändern. Oder es ist sehr schwierig, die Einstellung zu ändern. Und ich gucke gerade bei Einstellungsprozessen und bei Bewerbungsgesprächen auf die Einstellung der Leute und wie sie auf gewisse Themen blicken. Und das ist mir wichtig.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ob da Prompt-Engineering steht oder nicht, ist mir verhältnismäßig egal. Aber ich würde das als Trigger nehmen. Das ist für mich ein Hook, um die Leute zu befragen. Von daher kann ich die Sorge ein bisschen rausnehmen, dass jetzt jeder prompt Engineering in seinem CV reinschreiben muss.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Aber natürlich ist es ein guter Skill und vielleicht auch ein guter Punkt, um im Gespräch mal zu zeigen, dass man sich mit einem Thema auseinandergesetzt hat, was gerade aktuell ist und sehr dynamisch ist. Und das qualifiziert einen mit Sicherheit für das eine oder andere, gerade wenn ich mich in einem Startup bewerbe oder auch in einem Business. großen Unternehmen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Das heißt, ich muss auch ein bisschen gucken, wie bringe ich meine Organisation denn dahin, dass sie das vernünftig nutzen kann, dass sie sich damit sicher fühlen, dass sie auch wissen, was sind die Einschränkungen seitens des Unternehmens und sich da in einem Bereich aufhalten, wo sich das Unternehmen mit wohlfühlt und wo sich auch der Mitarbeiter mit wohlfühlt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Das Beispiel von autonomen Agenten kann ich nur unterschreiben und unterstreichen. Es gibt auf der Google-Entwicklerkonferenz in diesem Jahr im Frühjahr gab es ein Szenario, wo das sehr eloquent gezeigt wurde für den Bereich Travel, für den Bereich Healthcare. Kann ich nur empfehlen, sich das anzugucken.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Sehr coole Keynote und ja, wo du aus einer Consumer-Perspektive die Möglichkeit hast, eine komplexe Aufgabe abzugeben und dann mehrere an einen Agenten und der hat mehrere Subagenten, die für ihn das erledigen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
So und wenn wir das jetzt weiter spinnen, da gucke ich so ein bisschen in die B2B-Perspektive, wir sind ja im B2B-Software-Vertrieb hier, kann ich mir gut vorstellen, dass es in Zukunft für, jetzt muss ich eine Einschränkung machen, für Commodity-Produkte Dinge gibt, die Agenten miteinander aushandeln und verkaufen werden. Ich nehme jetzt vielleicht mal das Beispiel Schrauben.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Jetzt springen mir demnächst die Leute von Hilti und Würth in den Nacken und sagen, nein, wir haben Spezialkrodukte oder Sicherungen oder Papier oder weiß der Henker was. Also für Dinge des täglichen Bedarfs glaube ich schon, dass ein latentes Risiko besteht, dass der Vertriebler, der das macht und aushandelt, sich irgendwann mal einen neuen Job suchen muss, weil Agenten das übernehmen werden.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und ich glaube, das hat eine ganz klare Konsequenz für die Preseller. Wir müssen gucken, dass wir jeder für sich in einem Bereich ist, der weiterhin komplex ist. Das heißt, wir müssen ein komplexes Softwareprodukt haben, was eine Erklärung bedarf, wo es eine kreative Schaffens- und Erklärungslösung und Leistung benötigt. Und ich glaube, da ist ein bisschen der Sweet-Spot,
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und deshalb haben wir diese Arbeitsgruppe gegründet. Bei uns nennt sich das dann Strategic Initiative. Und das ist eine Gruppe von Leuten aus unterschiedlichen Teams, aus unterschiedlichen Ländern. Und wir sind jetzt dabei, so die ersten Arbeitspakete zu definieren, um dann halt einen Mehrwert für uns zu liefern.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und da ist das, wo weiterhin Pre-Sales den Mehrwert liefern kann und wo auch Sales den Mehrwert liefern kann. Das betrifft ja nicht nur uns als Pre-Seller, sondern ich glaube vor allem, dass die Seller auch, dass man auf der Stelle erstmal guckt und sagt, oh, wie können wir denn eventuell da Preisverhandlungen automatisieren?
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Wie können wir das mit dem Pitchen besser und einfacher machen, dass da der Faktor Mensch schneller in Anführungsstrichen wegrationalisiert werden soll? Weil das doch immer so ein bisschen eine Kenngröße ist, die Schwierigkeiten macht. Und die Ängste sind im Team sehr gemischt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Also es gibt Leute, die sagen, oh mein Gott, und es gibt Leute, die sagen, ja, aber wenn ich jetzt so die Halluzination sehe und in welcher Geschwindigkeit das geht, dann warten wir mal ab und so der Hype und bla bla bla. Also es gibt sehr unterschiedliche Perspektiven darauf und ich versuche den Leuten das immer als Chance zu vermitteln.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
zu sagen, guck mal, es gab schon viele Wendepunkte in der IT, die du vielleicht mitgemacht hast. Ich persönlich habe mitbekommen, wie das iPhone auf den Markt kam und habe das für mich nicht als Risiko erachtet. Ich habe irgendwann mal als Exchange-Administrator angefangen nach meiner Ausbildung.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ich glaube, Exchange-Administratoren, also E-Mail-Administratoren, gibt es nicht mehr so viele, weil sich das Thema komplett geändert hat. Für alle, die in der IT unterwegs sind, ist eines klar, so wie wir angefangen haben, werden wir den Job nicht beenden.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Das heißt, wenn ich in Rente gehe, mache ich wahrscheinlich nicht das, mit dem ich angefangen habe und dieses offene Mindset, sich zu erhalten, immer wieder zu gucken, rechts und links, was gibt es Neues und sich damit kritisch auseinanderzusetzen. Ich glaube, das ist ein Skill, der ist wichtig und das versuche ich den Leuten immer wieder ins Gedächtnis zu rufen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
seid keine Sachbearbeiter hier, in dem Sinne. Wenn ihr euch so versteht, dann ist Pre-Sales wahrscheinlich, dann werdet ihr mit Pre-Sales eine Menge Probleme bekommen. Also für euch persönlich, weil der Job wird euch Dinge abfordern, die ihr so nicht auf dem Zettel hattet. Und das wird, weiß ich nicht, ob das heute passiert, morgen, übermorgen, nächstes Jahr, nächste Woche, aber es wird passieren.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Irgendwann kommt was, was wir nicht auf dem Radar hatten und dann müssen wir uns mit auseinandersetzen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und wie das so ist, wir haben natürlich auch andere Gruppen innerhalb des Unternehmens, die sich mit ähnlichen Dingen auseinandersetzen. Und mit denen sind wir auch in Kommunikation und gucken, was die produzieren. Und wir wollen natürlich auch gucken, dass wir nicht Sachen doppelt und dreifach machen. Das ist dann ja vielleicht nicht so sinnvoll.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ich glaube, wir haben einen großen Vorteil und das unterschätzen viele. Wir sitzen an der Quelle. Wir kriegen diese Dinge mit. Wir sind die Ersten, die sie sehen. Das ist ein unschätzbarer Vorteil, den wir haben. Wir können diese Dinge schon sehen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Vielleicht erkennen wir nicht in Gänze, was die Auswirkungen sind, aber es ist eine gute Möglichkeit, sich damit auseinanderzusetzen, zu experimentieren. Vielleicht auch mal an einer Stelle take it easy zu machen und dann später zu sagen, okay, jetzt merke ich jetzt, Geht das Ganze in den Hype?
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Also jetzt kommt es aus dem Hype heraus, jetzt wird es wirklich produktiv, jetzt muss ich mal die Ärmel hochkrempeln und ran und dann mich damit auseinanderzusetzen. Also ich glaube schon, dass wir da als Pre-Seller eine gute Möglichkeit haben, gerade in der IT. Ich glaube auch nicht, dass wir so schnell arbeitslos werden, kann ich mir nicht vorstellen dafür.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
ist das, was wir oder was die meisten Unternehmen machen, zu erklärungswürdig und zu komplex und an vielen Stellen dann auch sehr divers. Und ja, lebt das, geht da drauf ein und arbeitet an den Skills. Das ist so mein Call to Action.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Sehr gerne und jederzeit wieder auch vielleicht zu einem anderen Thema.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Da sind wir Stand heute noch nicht. Also wir sind, es gibt natürlich innerhalb von Salesforce einen Teil, der sich quasi mit der Produktivität von Pre-Sales auseinandersetzt und das aber sehr generisch ausrollt, auch alle Teams.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und natürlich gibt es von unserer IT oder Business Technology heißt das Team, Initiativen, die AI-Tools generell verfügbar machen und zum Beispiel einen AI-Bot, den jeder nutzen kann, der entsprechende Policies versehen ist und den ich dann nutzen kann, um Prompts zu machen, Fragen zu stellen etc., eins der Tools, was wir nutzen können.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und diese Arbeitsgruppe bezieht sich erstmal nur auf Microsoft.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und wir gucken natürlich so ein bisschen in den Pre-Sales-Teil rein, aber wir gucken vor allen Dingen auch, was für uns rausfällt, was für unsere Tools eventuell interessant ist, wo ich einem Pre-Seller helfen kann, in einem Pre-Sale-Cycle bei einer Evaluation oder bei einem POC eventuell schneller zu werden, bei einer Demo schneller zu werden, was aber einen sehr spezifischen Kontext für unser Produkt hat und unsere Lösung, die wir anbieten.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Also es gibt ganz viele Themen. E-Mails schreiben. Am Anfang ging es natürlich los. Wir haben hier, also mein Team ist natürlich deutschsprachig. Viele unserer Inhalte sind englischsprachig. Das heißt, das ist ein Übersetzungsthema. Teilweise Dinge nachgucken, Antworten finden. Wir nutzen hier Slack. auch ein Kommunikationstool, was zum Konzern gehört.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und da gibt es inzwischen auch AI-Fähigkeiten, die einfach Artikel zusammenfassen. Das heißt, ich kann eine relativ generische Frage stellen. Und das haben die Techniker häufig mal. Der Kunde aus dem Kontext heraus kommt mit einer Frage, könnt ihr Feature XYZ umsetzen oder technische Anforderungen? So und so geht das mit eurem Produkt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
So, und da prasselt auf den Preseller was ein, wo er sich das heute hart erarbeiten muss. Er muss Dokumentation lesen, eventuell das ausprobieren, etc., etc. Und es ist sehr wahrscheinlich, dass irgendjemand anders diese Frage schon mal gestellt hat, die aber in irgendeinem Slack-Kanal drin ist von vor drei Jahren.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Musik
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
So, und entweder kann man sehr gut suchen, aber da helfen natürlich die AI-Tools heute so ein Ergebnis. sehr schnell zu präsentieren und dann mit den entsprechenden Verweisen darauf zu sagen, so und so ist die Antwort, das sind die drei Artikel. Das war eine Sache, die haben wir hier sehr schnell heben können, E-Mails schreiben. Wir hatten mehr Hoffnung in Bezug auf Präsentationen, ehrlicherweise.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Es ist ganz spannend, wenn ich mit einigen der Pre-Seller spreche, dann reden die davon, dass sie häufig so Admin-Aufwände haben. Und Admin-Aufwand ist halt Kompilieren von Präsentationen aus unterschiedlichen Quellen immer mal wieder. Animationen. Ich möchte Google sagen, mach mal eine Animation zwischen den Slides und so. Da sind wir bisher auch leider noch nicht.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Da merkt man auch, das ist so ein Thema, wo die Leute gerne reinwollen würden. Was wir gemerkt haben, was super funktioniert, ist Debuggen von Code. Keine Überraschung, haben wir immer wieder. Wir können sehr einfach mal eine Demo-Applikation bauen, die vielleicht auch nicht in unserer nativen Sprache gebaut ist.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Wir haben hier einen Kollegen, der hat relativ wenig JavaScript-Kenntnisse und hat sich mit der GPT und unserem internen Bot dann halt eine Demo-App gebaut, die gegen eine unserer APIs gelaufen ist und konnte das schön in einem Szenario für den Kunden zeigen. Der Kunde fand das total super oder für eine Messe. Und so kommt man zu Ergebnissen, die man vielleicht vorher, wenn man sehr viel
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Kalorien verbraucht hätte, um da hinzukommen und hat eine echte Beschleunigung. Das Ding ist, das sind so diese Inseln und wir versuchen jetzt im Grunde eine Landkarte über diese Inseln zu bauen so ein bisschen und einzusammeln, wo sind denn diese low-hanging fruits, wo sind denn Bereiche, die gut funktionieren, um das halt für alle nutzbar zu machen und auch allen Leuten die Ideen zu geben.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ich habe eben gerade mit einem Kollegen telefoniert, wo es um das Thema Training geht. Und da haben wir gesagt, naja, eigentlich könnten wir einen Bot bauen, der diese Trainingsfragen beantwortet, vortrainiert und dann Leute gegen diesen Bot laufen lassen. Haben wir bisher noch gar nicht so drüber nachgedacht, ist aber nicht unwahrscheinlich.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und in der Kombination aus internem Inhalt und dem Inhalt aus dem Public Internet, wie funktionieren gewisse Standardthemen im Bereich IT, werden wir wahrscheinlich sehr gute Ergebnisse erreichen können. Also auch das ist was, wo wir...
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
ebenso gegrübelt haben, dass wenn wir jetzt ausprobieren, einfach für Enablement for Sales oder auch BDRs einen Bot zu bauen, mit dem man sich unterhalten kann, wo man schnell eine Frage eintippt, während man in einem Discovery Call ist und eine relativ adäquate Antwort bekommt oder eine kurze Antwort, die einem das zurückspiegelt. Du lachst, aber teilweise sind die Dinge sehr naheliegend.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und für mich ist es auch immer wieder erschreckend, wie wenig wir uns dem bewusst sind, was es eigentlich alles kann. Und das ist das, wo wir dann immer wieder merken, ah, da gibt es noch was zu entdecken und da gibt es noch was zu entdecken. Und ich sehe das auch eher so ein bisschen als Reise. Also das ist...
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Wir werden eine Menge Dinge noch in der Zukunft sehen. Von daher sind wir sehr gespannt. Also low-hanging fruits, E-Mails schreiben, Code-Generierung, Code-Korrigieren, Dinge erklären, APIs erzeugen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ja, also es ist natürlich immer so, wir sind ein großes Team, um das mal so ein bisschen einzuordnen. Ich habe bei mir alleine eine Organisation, 17 Leute, die sich mit meinem Bereich auseinandersetzen, also Automation, Integration, alles rund um Microsoft, nur für Deutschland. Weltweit sind das für Newsoft so um die 400 Leute.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Also das sind so die Themen, die quasi für die Einzelpersonen geholfen haben. Wir haben eine andere Geschichte. Wir haben einen Kollegen bei uns in einem anderen Teil der Organisation, der hat ein KI-Tool genutzt, um Übersetzungen zu machen und Demo-Videos zu übersetzen. Ich erinnere mich, es gab eine Folge mit, wir haben uns hingesetzt und 100 Demo-Videos gebaut.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Wir haben das Problem, dass wir in vielen Sprachen unterwegs sein müssen, jetzt nicht in Deutschland, aber wir kriegen viel Content aus dem Ausland und haben das dann nicht auf Deutsch und wir sind durchaus viele Mittelstand und der eine oder andere hat da so gewisse Beißhemmungen, das ist auch alles verständlich und wir können dann natürlich unseren Beitrag zu leisten, indem wir den Inhalt übersetzen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und der Clemens, Gruß an dieser Stelle, hat ein Tool genutzt, um das zu transkripieren, umzusetzen in eine andere Sprache, hat das KI-Modell inzwischen auch angereichert mit Sprachdaten von ihm und die letzten Videos und Audiodateien, die ich von ihm bekommen habe, weil ich gedacht habe, er ruft mich an.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Es war wirklich erschreckend gut und die nächste Stufe war jetzt quasi auch Lippensynchronisation von einem Kollegen, der, also man sieht, der kommt aus dem asiatischen Raum, hat asiatische Wurzeln, er spricht ein lupenreines Deutsch. Das ist dann schon für manche Leute etwas irritierend, aber das ist die Realität und du kannst es nicht erkennen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Du kannst es so gut wie nicht erkennen, dass das mit R gemacht wurde. Der Aufwand ist minimal. So haben wir eine Riesenskalierbarkeit,
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Auf den Videos kriegen wir sehr hochqualitativen Content, den wir ausspielen können, wo der Talktrack vernünftig strukturiert ist, die Demo ordentlich strukturiert ist und das ist natürlich was, was für mich als Führungskraft spannend ist, weil ich kriege eine Wiederholbarkeit rein an der Stelle.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ich muss jetzt nicht hergehen und sagen, guck dir mal das Video an, mach die Demo nochmal auf Deutsch oder sprich das in Deutsch ein und dann passt das nicht und dann hat der Kollege hustet dreimal. Natürlich habe ich eine gewisse Authentizität, da braucht man nicht drüber reden.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Wenn ich erkenne den Peter oder den Klaus oder wer auch immer aus meinem Team oder die Maria, da habe ich natürlich nochmal eine ganz andere Möglichkeit mit solchen Tools.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Also das war auch eine Sache, die uns am Anfang, wo wir echt die Haare zu Berge gestanden haben und nach Hindenbeck geflogen sind, wir gedacht haben, wow, okay, da ist ein Riesenhebel und da können wir richtig Zeit sparen, wenn wir das richtig machen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Ja, klar. Also vor allen Dingen mit Zug auf Kreativität. Also ich bin von meiner Persönlichkeit, wenn du Leute um mich herum fragst, also jemand, der sehr strukturiert ist, der mit Zahlen, Daten, Fakten arbeitet, mir fehlt manchmal einfach so ein bisschen das Kreativitätsgehen. Und da ist so ein LLM eine gute Hilfe. Wir machen hier immer mal wieder in den Teammeetings so Wasserstandsabfragen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Wie geht es den Kollegen? Wie war das Wochenende? Wie fühlt ihr euch gerade? Und wir garnieren das ganz gerne auch mal mit einer netten Frage zu anderen Themen. Wohin fahrt ihr dieses Jahr in den Urlaub? Was sind gute Tipps für runterkommen nach einem stressigen Demotag und so? Und irgendwann gehen einem die Fragen aus. Das ist einfach ganz normal. Ich bin ja auch nur ein Mensch.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und natürlich war der Hype groß, als hier diverse KI- und AI-Tools auf den Markt kamen. Es waren alle begeistert und wollten ausprobieren. Und dann kommt so ein bisschen, wie immer, das Valley of Despair nennen wir das. Der Desillusionierungsphase, wo alle so, okay, was mache ich damit jetzt? Ich habe tolle Tools und irgendwie müssen wir da strukturiert dran.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und da kann man dann so ein LLM mal befragen und sagt, gib mir mal drei gute Fragen, um so ein bisschen die Stimmung im Team aufzulockern. Und dann kriegst du einfach mal eine Antwort. Oder wir hatten gestern das Beispiel, wie organisiere ich so eine Prompt-Bibliothek am besten? Wir haben über AI gesprochen. Wir schreiben hier, die Kollegen fangen jetzt an, Prompts zu schreiben.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Einige funktionieren besser, einige funktionieren schlechter. Das müssen wir ja irgendwie abspeichern und vielleicht ein Bewertungssystem dahinterlegen und katalogisieren. Wie macht man denn das? Wie kriegt man denn Feedback von den Leuten rein? Das sind so lauter Aspekte, über die man dann nachdenkt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Und auch das kannst du eintippen und dann sagt dir das LLM, ah, guck mal hier, das sind die fünf Schritte, die ich so vorschlagen würde. Dann denkt man drüber nach so, ja, okay, das vielleicht, das habe ich schon gewusst. Das Zweite, da habe ich noch nicht so drüber nachgedacht. Also man kriegt einfach mehr, ja, du kriegst so eine 100-Prozent-Antwort, in Anführungsstrichen.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Du hast eine größere Abdeckung von dem, was du sonst, was dich in deinem Alltag erwartet. Und natürlich auch ich nutze das zum E-Mails schreiben, Texte zusammenfassen, Ich habe viel mit Führungskräften zu tun aus unterschiedlichen Branchen und nein, ich weiß nicht, was der Fokus eines Laborherstellers im Bereich Süddeutschland ist, der gerade irgendwie spezielle optische Geräte herstellt.
PreSales Unleashed | Sales Engineering im B2B Software Vertrieb
PreSales, das übernimmt die KI - Mit Philipp Schöne (188)
Muss ich mich einlesen. Ist einfach so, habe ich nichts zu tun. Ich bin vielleicht ein bisschen näher an den Automobilern dran, historisch gesehen. Und da kann man sich natürlich auch schon mal schnell ein Briefing holen vor so einem Call und sich informieren lassen und einfach für Research das nutzen. Das hilft mir natürlich auch, ganz klar.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Like you can just be like, you don't have to be beautiful.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, a weekly talk show about hydrogen non-bombs. Thanks to our partners at Fly.io. Launch your app on Fly in five minutes or less and join three million others, including us. Learn how at Fly.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Sorry, I was trying to get the fourth zone. He said there's four quadrants, and he said three zones, and I'm over here without ChatGPT wondering.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Was that as a concept was difficult to sell or was it like the actual, how would we get there? Because we are this behemoth that's doing this other thing and we're in the performance zone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
And some of those reasons, it sounds like we're justifying certain jobs or or even sub orgs inside of that, which would no longer be necessary. Or I mean, I wonder because to me, of course, maybe I'm also a small business kind of guy like you are. But to me, it's like, let's just let's just try that. Let's just give it a shot. Run with it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Yeah, so I think the XZutils backdoor was really eye-opening to a lot of developers. It showed the vulnerability of the open-source ecosystem. You had this maintainer who had been tirelessly maintaining this package for 15 years, who was targeted by nation-state actors, who created, like literally, it's like a spy movie, right? They had multiple personas.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
fake personas that were contacting this poor maintainer and, you know, working on him psychologically to convince him over the course of two years to add them to the repository and give them publish permissions. And they did this through a bunch of kind of negative messages, but also by being helpful and by sending good positive pull requests.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
It's really like I really think it's out of like out of a spy movie, just kind of the level of effort that they put into this. And what they were able to do is get access to this package. This is built into pretty much every Linux server out there. And what this would have let them do is it would let them SSH into any server and run any command on the server.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
without knowing the password, without being authenticated to the server. So this would have been like a world ending, potentially kind of an attack, right? It would have been probably the worst attack we've ever seen. I'm not exaggerating. It could have been that bad, but we were lucky. Through a total accident,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
This backdoor dependency had made it into the beta builds of some popular Linux distros, but it hadn't made it all the way out to the stable version yet. And a developer who was testing out the beta versions of these Linux distros noticed some weird behavior. He noticed that his SSH connection was taking half a second too long.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
And so he pulled the thread and traced it back to this backdoor dependency. And we were all saved because of this total accident. It's mind-blowing to me for a couple reasons. One, obviously, wow, there's literally states out there, countries that are trying to target open source now. Clearly, there's a team behind this. They probably didn't just work on this one dependency.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
They were probably working on getting access to many other ones in parallel. If you just look at the time between the emails they sent to the maintainer, they were about a month between some of these emails. So they were probably working on other maintainers and trying to get access during that time. So that's really scary.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
I also think it's pretty scary to see kind of the fact that it took an accident to find the attack. It makes me think, like, how many have we not caught as a community? How many have we missed if this one was caught by a total accident? It was eye opening to a lot of people and it made people realize that there really is a threat in the open source ecosystem.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
And it's not because most people are bad. It's the opposite. Most people are good, but there are few bad actors out there taking advantage of the trust in the system. That's really where we come in. We're trying to give every company the tools to protect themselves from those types of attacks. And that's what we do at Socket.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
You don't talk to the same nerds we talk to.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
But not, yeah, there's some joy in the process. Businesses don't enjoy it, but people inside of businesses sometimes do.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Three community orchestras. What do you play?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Somebody can subsidize. No, there's already a monthly payment. We're already paying our phone bill.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Would you subscribe, Adam, to a Mac subscription? Would you subscribe?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
That'll be fun.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
bass is an interesting instrument because we take it for granted. Don't we? Like it kind of, when it's, it needs to be there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
It is about that, but you kind of forget that it's there when it's there. And then when it's gone, you're like, something's missing. That's very important here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
It's not working. The website is down. Yes, definitely parallels those.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Fantastic. Do you ever get solos, though? I mean, at least in rock bands, the bassists will get a solo every once in a while. But in the orchestra, I assume, probably not.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
That makes sense to me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Yeah. Well, on that topic, what do you think about the Department of Justice's upcoming potentially breaking up of Google? I mean, it seems like it's plausible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
So. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Yeah, 100%. I agree with that. And I think people already are freaked out, so much so that so many people are convinced that Instagram is listening to them, like audibly turning on a microphone. And I've argued against that. I don't think that's the case. But I've stopped arguing it because it's so well-targeted. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
So quick that I'm kind of like, you know what? I'm starting to become a believer. Maybe they really are. Cause it's so personal and timely. Like the timeliness is what gets you. It's like right after I talked about it, I didn't have to search and I'll tell people we have, but you're connected to this other person and they were probably searching it because you talked to them about it. You know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
So I was trying to help understand like how the, all the tracking works and stuff. But at the end of the day, it's like, it's gotten very targeted to where I'm like, Yeah, maybe they just turned the microphone on after all.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
I can't explain this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Yeah, exactly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
They don't care. Squeeze every dollar out if possible. So this antitrust, more regulation, potentially more governmental control, like pair that with your –
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
future look at these energy investments, because it seems like, I mean, if Google and Microsoft and these companies are investing in these new or even old forms of clean energy, nuclear, et cetera, I mean, that stuff is going to get also like, do we want that kind of a megalopoly as well as like these seven companies own all the energy?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
How did she learn it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Right. And you're letting people down.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
So you're not working right now. You're daydreaming. You're playing instruments.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Right, right, right. You know what I mean. Traditional work. Do you know what's next? Are you investing? Are you starting something new? Don't go 10 years. Go like two years and then go personal in your life. What's it going to look like, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Tell me more about this liquid cooling stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
But no, no H bombs, please.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Absolutely.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Yeah, you're going to be in the zone. You're going to know all about the plus plus. All right. I guess we'll say goodbye. Bye, friends.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Party on, Changelog++ people. We've got an additional 10-plus minutes for you right after this outro. For everyone else, thanks so much for hanging with us. We love Changelog and Friends, and we hope you do too. Don't forget, we will be at All Things Open in a little over two weeks' time. Join us in Raleigh, North Carolina. We'll be hanging out in the hallway track.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
hosting a panel on open source AI and more. If you're going or even just considering it, hop in Zulip and chat us up. You can do that by joining the totally free, totally rad changelog developer community at changelog.com slash community. Thanks once again to our partners at fly.io, to our beat freak, the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder, and to our longtime sponsors at Sentry. We love Sentry.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
You might, too. Use code CHANGELOG. Save $100 on the team plan. Boom. Next week on The Change Log, news on Monday, Shea Bannon, CTO of Elastic, on Wednesday, and our old friend Quincy Larson from Free Code Camp on Friday. Have a great weekend. Share The Change Log with your friends who might dig it. And let's talk again real soon. Hello, Plus Plus people. Welcome back. Zach, welcome to Plus Plus.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
This is where we can tell us what you really think. Do more of the same, basically. But wait. Yeah, exactly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
comma here's where you could do other you know the sandwich method yeah you gotta sandwich it up it was is there a myth isn't there a method called the sandwich method jared yeah it's compliment criticism compliment that's right yes i'm not sure if it's actually called the sandwich method but i think it is okay cool good job yeah that's how you could have done better but you did great i yeah but you did great
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Yeah, that's something I've learned as well as a coach, coaching young children coming up playing basketball. I coach basketball and baseball. And as a driven, ambitious athlete that I once was, used to just a guy yelling in your face when you mess up. I just figured that's what everybody's okay with and it works all the time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
But there's a lot of situations where, maybe not sandwich method, but people don't realize that when you constantly criticize someone, It's not because you don't think they're good. It's because that's what you think they're there for, is for you to tell them the things that they could improve. And every once in a while, you got to focus on something they're doing right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Because especially with young people, they struggle with that. But I've never thrown a chair at anybody. I don't know, Zach, did you ever have a chair thrown at you from a conductor? I mean, that seems like it's over the top.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
Okay. Close enough, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
I had an eraser thrown at me in high school from my teacher. Oh, yeah. I think everybody has, right? Yeah. Several. Oh, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
You'll rent chips and be happy (Friends)
We did get into the deep stuff. That's the good stuff, though, you know? That's the good stuff. Straight in the deep end. You know, why small talk when you can deep talk? That's what I think. That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I can't think of one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
No. Apparently they don't care about us at all, Jared.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
They know our children will bother us until we give up. That's the game.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I think there's a lot that were, at least for me, like my grandparents' generation that reboots happen that like Wizard of Oz, the remake was way better. Really? Which is the one we all know because there was one from 1925. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
But there was this whole remake thing with CG in the late 90s when everyone was like, oh, this is the new way we make movies. No, we've shifted back into this practical effects world. But there's a lot of the really old movies that are like, oh, I didn't know that was a remake that I think would apply. But I think if you're looking at modern, last 50 to 60 year remakes, that's going to be harder.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
They're just ruining our childhood.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Dune's a good remake.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah. Yeah. I'm on the fence on that one. I mean, like, it's okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It is a good movie, but I, it, I, I feel like they're different movies. I know it's the same movie.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Wait, who was going to say something about doing Adam?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I didn't see the second half either. I fell asleep in the first one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I don't. I don't. It's all right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
You only really need to do the first like two and then it kind of jumps the shark. But the first one is one of, in my opinion, the most magical, beautiful pieces of writing. I mean, it is just it's amazing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Will Smith. Yeah. Yeah. I just bought, I just bought the DVD of that one. Shut up. Really? No, for real. It's like, I put all of them in Plex and like, I just rewatched it. I'm like, this movie holds up. Like, it actually has, like, a good, yeah, no, like, the things they're doing in it and all the, like, conspiracy and stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah, not even. It's 480 or whatever.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah. Yeah, no, it's fine. Like, I buy Muse. I just buy, like, there's people I can offer up. I just meet someone, like, here's $2 for a movie or whatever, and I throw it in Plex. Where do you buy these? OfferUp, eBay, wherever.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I was just like, well, I meet locally. I don't want to pay for shipping.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
No, I mean, like I meet them at a Starbucks, like if it's local, right? Like I just go like, hey, I'm in the area. Can I buy these three movies from you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Really? Yeah. I do it all the time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Maybe. My threshold's under $5. Yeah. Like if it's under $5 for per movie and like people will sell lots. They're like, I got 300 movies. Which ones do you want? And I'll go get like, give me five movies or whatever. I'm going to meet you up. Here's 10 bucks. Right. And then I'm just like, okay, well then I just, and I put them in plex and that's.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
This is wild. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I have plenty of that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah. If that's the master. Sure. I'm checking my, I have 1023 movies in Plex and this isn't counting TV shows. This isn't counting shorts. This isn't counting alternative stuff. Like I just, I have boxes and boxes of DVDs over here. Most of them I paid like a buck or two for, and like it's content that I own. I keep in all these streaming services.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
That's true. Like every one of them raised their prices, right? Like how much is Disney Plus now? And it's just like, as someone who ran Disney Plus, I'm like- Are you part of the problem over there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Also, they take movies away. I was trying to find something the other day to watch and you can't find it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yes. Stop changing our movies. And Enemy of the State was one I couldn't find to watch. Like I literally was like, I want to watch that movie. And you can't stream it. And so I was like, forget it. Like, I'm just going to go. I found it on OfferUp and I was like at the store. I'm like, hey, can you meet me here? And they come over and here you go. Here's your-
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I've been doing it for years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Just in case? No, I'm in public. I have more faith in humanity. I'm sorry. I also have a lot of privilege as a white dude in Southern California where I'm just like, yeah, it's fine.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It took me like 20 seconds to realize what strap meant. I was like, oh, a gun. I'm sorry. A gun. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Wait, are we gun people here?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Can I tell you that my theory is that 1995 was the best year of our lives and we'll never get it back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Okay, think about the movies from 1995. Like incredible movies.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Okay, that's one. Think about Pizza Hut. 90s Pizza Hut. I did not understand how great 90s pizza. Remember, you had the plastic, which were probably killing us. It was like made of BPA. And there's like massive soda jugs. They come over with the BPA soda pitchers. You get a whole thing. You have booths. There's like a salad bar before it killed you. Oh, yeah. I mean, 90s Pizza Hut was magic.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I'm tired. I mean, that's the complaint. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I wish I could time travel. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Emily, these movies are not, I'm looking at the movies right now. This is not living up to. Yes. What's your better version?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Wait, why is 1999 the best year ever?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It was a great weekend. I don't have complaints about the weekend. It's just the week starting again.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Okay. Maybe I have to shift it to 1999. I have to look at it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
But like 95, you can be nostalgic for that too.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
They all told you to eat it backwards? Exactly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I just want to be able to like sit. Remember Wendy's? Wendy's had like, it was a nice place to eat. You could go get the dollar menu and not feel like you were going to get some kind of disease in the restaurant.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
This past summer, we took my son for his very first time into a play place. Oh yeah. And like, cause he was like partial COVID. Like we're like, yeah, we're never doing that. And then this summer you're going to be able to do it. So we went to like Burger King and Chick-fil-A and McDonald's. Like we're hitting up all the ones that had, if they had indoor play places, like you can go to it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And like, I'm sitting there, I'm like, can we go now? Can we go now? And they're buying DVDs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
You go play over there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Did he love, did they love it or what? Oh yeah, absolutely. And so he has a tier now of like, which ones are the best. And mostly because of which friends he met at each one. Right. And so he's like, oh, well this one had better kids. I'm like, well, like they're not always there. That's hilarious.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
See, that's the problem with like America though. France would be like, no, we work two days this week. You know, it's like we're way off.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I don't know about your kids. My kid becomes the mayor of whatever playground she's on. I wonder where she gets it. She's like, this is my playground.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Jurassic Park was 95 too, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah. Wait, wait, the level of output can go down?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
You were the... Oh, you're not even... Not me. Jurassic Park was 93. This is not... No.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Why do I think... Hold on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It's close enough to 95.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
But I thought there was a thing with Michael Crichton...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Jurassic World is... No, that's the other one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah, I know. It's crazy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I know. These composers like overdo. Yeah. I mean, everything. It's like, okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
They had the Jurassic. They rebooted in 2015. Lost World was 97. That's bad.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah, Lost World was the second one and that was 97 and then Jurassic Park 3, they went back to the number system, was 2001. So, yeah, it was 93, 97, and 2001.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
There was something in... Maybe I got the year wrong. I thought it was Michael Crichton in one of those years had like the best-selling book, the best-selling movie, and some other element. It was like a special...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I always wanted an Emmy because I feel like that would be so. It's like Emily has the Emmy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I didn't realize he wrote Twister.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
His best book, in my opinion, was Andromeda Strain.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I think, but it was, the book was magic.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I know, media with Emily.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
The years are wrong, but the thoughts are right. Hey, it's a good tagline.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I don't remember. I think Amazon.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Fly gives you a lot of flexibility, like a lot of flexibility on multiple fronts. And on top of that, you get, so I've talked a lot about the networking and that's obviously one thing, but there's various data stores that we partner with that are really easy to use. Actually, one of my favorite partners is Tigris. I can't say enough good things about them. when it comes to object storage.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It was probably, I knew of you. I don't know if you knew of me, but I knew of you before Amazon. And I remember when you joined Amazon, I was very excited. And then at that point, it was just a lot of DMs for years. Yes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I never in my life thought I would have so many opinions about object storage, but I do now. Tigris is a partner of Fly and it's S3 compatible object storage that basically seems like it's a CDN, but is not. It's basically object storage that's globally distributed without needing to actually set up a CDN at all. It's like automatically distributed around the world.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And it's also incredibly easy to use and set up, like creating a bucket is literally one command. So it's partners like that that I think are this sort of extra icing on top of Fly that really makes it sort of the platform that has everything that you need.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah, so Tigris is built on top of Fly's infrastructure, and that's what allows it to be globally distributed. I do have a video on this, but basically the way it works is whenever, like, let's say a user uploads an asset to a particular bucket. Well, that gets uploaded directly to the region closest to the user.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Whereas with a CDN, there's sort of like a centralized place where assets need to get copied to, and then eventually they get sort of trickled out to all of the different global locations. Whereas with Tigris, the moment you upload something, it's available in that region instantly. And then it's eventually cached in all the other regions as well as it's requested.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
In fact, with Tigris, you don't even have to select which regions things are stored in. You just get these regions for free. And then on top of that, it is so much easier to work with. I feel like the way they manage permissions, the way they handle bucket creation, making things public or private is just so much simpler than other solutions.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And the good news is that you don't actually need to change your code if you're already using S3. It's S3 compatible. So like whatever SDK you're using is probably just fine. And all you got to do is update the credentials. So it's super easy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah, so there's a lot here and I think there's a lot of aspects to the different problems that you have to solve in the integration story in building these integrations and also providing them in a user-friendly way for your customers to self-serve and onboard and consume those integrations. So part of what the Paragon SDK provides is that embedded user experience.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Again, what we call our connect portal. That's going to provide the authentication for your users to connect their accounts. That's going to be the initial onboarding. But in addition to that, your users may also want to configure different options or settings for their integrations.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
A common example that we see for Salesforce or for CRM integrations in general is that your users may want to select some type of custom object mapping. Every CRM can be configured differently, so your users might want to map objects to some different type of record in their Salesforce or different fields in their Salesforce.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I mean, some of my closest friends come from Twitter, just random interactions. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And typically that's what developers would have to build on their own is this UI for your users to configure these different settings for every single integration.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
That's also going to be what's provided by the Paragon SDK is not just that initial onboarding and authentication experience, but also the configuration end user UX for different settings like custom field mapping, selecting which types of features on your integration that your user might want to configure. And that's also going to be provided fully out of the box by Paragon SDK.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
With integrations, different APIs might have different rate limits. They might have different policies that you have to conform with. And your developers typically have to learn these different nuances for every API and write code individually to conform to those different nuances.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah. Well, the only true social network is like someone's phone number, right? Like that's like who, you know, is like really part of your social network. I think it's like, once you have someone's like, you can text someone or like DM their phone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
With Paragon, because we build and maintain the connector with each of the integrations that we support in our catalog, we're automatically going to handle for things like retries, things like rate limits.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And so we look at this as sort of the backend or infrastructure layer of the integration problem that we have spent the last five years essentially building and optimizing the Paragon infrastructure to act as the integration infrastructure for your application.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Mayor of AWS. Hardly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I know. AWS, I ended up, I came in as head of DevOps product marketing, which is awesome. Peter Uelander, who is now the CMO of Mongo, pulled me over. He's an incredible leader. So that was a fun time. And then went over to DevRel, led community efforts, really focused around especially third-party communities. I think AWS does a really good job of...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
ensuring people who are already bought into AWS continue to be bought into AWS. I think they have a growth area in reaching developers who are not already AWS fanboys. So that's what I focused on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
If you don't call yourself a builder, then you're a third party. community for AWS.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah, I never bought into that term. So if you don't know, at Amazon, when you think about developer, they call developers builders. And it's like I've never roofed a house. I don't have carpentry. I'm not a builder. Though, to be honest, sometimes when you say developer, people will be like, oh, I'm a developer. And they're like, oh, you buy land? You develop land? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Right. No, I don't. I'm not that cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
But yeah. And then after AWS, I left, which was a really good decision. I left sort of jumping off a cliff. I didn't have another role. But it was interesting. Like, I don't know if any of you have had this in your career. I was so burnt out and empty that I was just not even showing up the way I wanted to. Yeah. I just needed a break. And it wasn't just Amazon that stuck to my soul.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Microsoft before that. Microsoft during the pandemic was... a special kind of exhausting. But yeah, took a break. And then in May, June, Forest Brazil was like, hey, I have an idea. Tell me your idea. I was like, I think we could make an influencer marketing agency and connect companies with influencers and get content creators paid. I was like, I like this. Do you think they'd pay for it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Turns out they do. And so that's what we've been up to all these months.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Incredibly creative.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I was paid well. Happiness is a different conversation. I ended up leaving, honestly, because I was scared for my health. The last five months, my eye was twitching. I'm not even kidding. Like, it just would not stop twitching. And I went to my doctor. I was like, this seems like a bad sign. She's like, yeah, that's not great. Seems like you might be stressed. I was like, no sh**.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
What am I paying for?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And so I went to an acupuncturist and she actually helped the most. She kind of like made it manageable for the last little home stretch. But yeah, as soon as I realized like there wasn't going to be any kind of meaningful change and I wasn't going to be able to be what I needed to be to be effective. I was like, I can't, I can't keep going.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And so, yeah, I just, I made the bold decision and it wasn't, I think a lot of times in my, cause I've made some real bold decisions in my career and people sometimes think that I'm just like bold by nature. I am not, I am driven by like, I don't know. I think it was, it's more of a fear response than anything else. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It wasn't like in that moment, like I could revisionist history this and say like, Oh, I had a plan and I was going to make sure everything was going to be amazing. I was going to go off on my own, but really it was like, I cannot keep going down this path where I will damage myself, both soul and body.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And it's like, okay, we have to, we have to stop this and figure out what's next, whether that's a new job or something on my own. I don't know, but.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
No, I didn't. I was just like, I know that this, I will die if I continue. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I thought I'd need a month. So this is the lie of burnout. And especially for people who are like, I'll put myself in the high achieving, overachiever category. I generally have no ability to recognize my own limitations. And that's not a good thing, right? And so what happened is I quit, immediately got sick, and was sick for like a month, basically. because I had like held on for so long.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And then my immune system was just like, time to rest. And so I had that rest. And then I was like, oh, like I remember in January, I was like, time to start writing. It's going to be amazing. And then there was just, you're empty. Like you're so far, you've gone through all your gas. You've gone through the reserve tank. There's nothing there. There's not even fumes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And so you just have to sit still. And I actually think one of the hardest things to do in our society in this moment where we we all run so fast and we operate under so much pressure of like being the best, being better, striving to do better in all things all the time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
like sitting still and not doing anything and trusting like it was really really hard and then i went through like this whole identity crisis of what am i without my big cloud career am i even valuable to the industry as emily freeman like that that was february and then like march april may was just around mostly cleaning closets i really i my friends will tell you like
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I went nuts on just tidying and cleaning and neurotically organizing. I mean, my closets look like a serial killer lives in the house.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Literally cleaning closets. Literally. No metaphors here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Do you remember when we had all our friends' phone numbers memorized?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
No, like literally removing junk, buying perfect little containers, labeling the containers like a psychopath, putting things in. I mean, it's... It's beautiful. But yeah, it was, it's a whole process. And I'm just now to a place where it's like, oh, I have energy. I actually like the industry again.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Cause I was real, real bearish on tech, the companies, the people, honestly, like, it's just like, what are we doing here? And that's not a good attitude and certainly not a place for creativity and hopeful inspiration, you know? And so, yeah, I needed a break, but I think when you're in burnout, you have this thought of like, Oh, I just take a vacation. It'll be fine.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Oh, yeah. Do you still have your childhood phone number memorized?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It's like, no, this is years of compounding stress on, on your body, on your mind and your soul. And it has to, it has to heal. That takes time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
But those are like once in a career at a company, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I mean, a lot of how much European companies, it's just like you leave for a month. Right. Like you're gone for a month as like normal vacation every year.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And back in back in September and not like catching up from August, like back in September and I'm going to start in September and we'll see where you're at.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Well, I think it's I didn't even have energy for that. Like when I say I was empty, I was I was toast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I mean, some somewhat, but I've already reinvented myself so many times that at this point, it's like, OK, you have to like stick with something for a minute. I mean, I was I worked in politics and then I worked in PR and then I did politics. nonprofits and then I was writing and then I was in tech and it's like okay I do feel like
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
That's amazing. Is that mine too? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I have learned so much around specifically this industry and even more specifically, like how the really big companies operate, what they need, how they fit into the market. I think the role of like AI and developers in the next decade is really interesting. I want to be a part of that. And so, no, I don't think so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Well now you, you were born in the year when, in the years when you could port, right? Like, cause like porting phone numbers, right? Like wasn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And then in all transparency, I mean, like what other industry could we join outside of finance? finance, which is more stressful than this role. Where could we make the money that we make? There's no other, even doctors and lawyers don't make what we make, which is crazy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I know they have more, they have more debt.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah. It's wild to me that they, I mean, some of these doctors come out of school. If you, if you didn't get scholarships or your parents didn't pay for it, you can come out of school at 350, $400,000 in debt. Right. It's insane.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Cause if you wanted to switch carriers, you had to give up the phone number and you're like, I gotta, I gotta tell everyone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Don't have a laundry. Don't have an in-unit laundry. I grew up without an in-unit laundry. And so it's like you have to you have to go where there's machines.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Coder is a platform to provision you a development environment on any cloud infrastructure. That might be in a VM, that might be inside of a container. But Coder is kind of a developer's route to provision infrastructure for them to write software inside of. We started with the IDE, which is kind of like putting VS code in the browser, which is what most people are certainly familiar with us for.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And we kind of funneled that into more of a platform where people provision the infrastructure. And a lot of people do use a web IDE with Coder. A lot of people use a local IDE and just connect in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
What people really come to us for, particularly this problem is really exacerbated if you're a large enterprise, is when you have like 500 engineers that are trying to update like a version of Python. And instead, we allow one engineer to go through that tedious work of updating some scripts or some Docker container.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And then you can actually just deploy that in one click to say like 500 engineers and make it really, really simple.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
So as a platform engineer, developers might constantly be opening IT tickets that their computer isn't working properly. They might constantly want to update dependencies, but that's a big mess. You constantly have to email people across your team to say, hey, Adam, could we update from Java 17 to Java 18? Those are the kinds of problems that people typically have. That's the status quo.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
You ship people more powerful laptops to improve the build times of your projects. You try to reduce the complexity of your products instead of simply leveraging better hardware. We believe that the future is leveraging the cloud for a lot of these things. You can get more powerful instances in GCP or AWS that can make the build times faster instantly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It also opens up like fun conversations. Like I have a 727 phone number. And so that's what, that was what I call my life layover in Florida. People like, wait, you don't live in Florida. Let me tell you about my eight years in Florida.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
You can let one developer create a standardized environment and then distribute it to a thousand so that when you're updating from Java 17 to 18, it's just a simple pull request. You can co-locate your servers right next to something like S3 or a database they're using in development so that you get immediate data transfers and it's not slow.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Many of our customers, which is a crazy thing to say, but they use absolutely massive monorepos and they get clones that go from like 10 minutes or 20 minutes or an hour to simply like a minute or 30 seconds. It's just a lot simpler when all of your engineers are standardized on one centralized piece of infrastructure and then one person can impact the lives of hundreds of engineers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And with that, we don't believe that everything belongs in the cloud. We think that some workloads are really amazing for it and some are absolutely terrible. Coder should be a self-serve offering to your engineers. It should not be prescriptive where you migrate all pieces of software development into the cloud.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Only the things that really get a lot better by running them in this cloud native way do we really promote moving.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yes. So some of it is just like, let's see what happens, which if you don't have that phrase in your life, like I highly recommend just saying, let's try and see what happens sometimes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Usually when I say that something catches on fire, just like literally on fire, like my workbench behind me, like I, yeah, it's a problem. You're still standing, Justin. You're still standing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I haven't my whole life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
No, it was a plane with fire. It was just like, did you know cooking flour can explode? Yeah, you can blow off your eyebrows pretty quick with some flour and flames.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
If you fill an area, you can explode a home that way. If you fill with a fan or whatever, like ta-ta, I'm going to get a call. So... Yeah, I think with influencers in particular, I have been an influencer. I don't love that term, but it is the thing that I think people immediately understand what it is. I also think about like content creators or subject matter experts.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Influencer is just more of a broad umbrella for a lot of different skill sets. I have been on that side. I've also worked at the companies who need people to speak on behalf of the company while not also being employed there, right? I think, and I mean, Justin, you've experienced this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
When you work at a company, I think you are obviously the most knowledgeable about those products and services because you have the most time to dedicate to those products and services. And there's this layer of, well, you work there. Of course you have to say nice things. And there's a trust. Like I think I've, I made a commitment all those years ago when I first started in developer relations.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And I think I've held true to it, which is I am never going to come up here and say something that is factually inaccurate. I am never going to blanket represent anything. a product and say it's the best without understanding your situation. You know, I'm, I'm, I have on a number of occasions suggested a different product for customers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It's like, well, this isn't going to solve your problem because of X, Y, and Z go over here. That's the only way I think you keep and maintain trust credibility. And that's, I mean, my reputation is based on authenticity and my credibility and my reputation. I am not going to violate that or my commitment to the community for a paycheck. I'm just not.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Wait, where were you in Orlando?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Um, but still there's this, there's this thought of like, okay, well, are you the most, like, have you actually utilized this outside of the company? And often you haven't. And so a lot of times companies are looking for folks to either create that content, do deep dives. And that can be long form content, a blog, a tutorial, a video or short form content. It's, you know,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Well, I know. I used to live there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
a social post, a LinkedIn post, a video on TikTok or Instagram. And really it's not just about this is a great product. That's awesome if it is, but it's more about how do you utilize this? Where is this useful? What are the pros and cons about that? And that type of authentic voice for companies is priceless. I mean, they need it, but there's a lot of challenges with that. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
In the year 2024, this is post-Twitter, and in the year of AI can generate pretty much anything. How much of that is still... Because I feel like the platform... Platforms play a huge role in any sort of DevRel marketing. And if the platforms are falling apart, you don't really have the... the reach or the credibility of the platform.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Like, yeah, I can't guarantee that a post is going to go anywhere.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Right. Like there's so much of that that's just out of my hands, but also the fact that like AI, any text box on the internet, AI can fill it and, and they can generate credible people, right. That don't exist. And in personas that don't even exist and say like, Oh, this is someone that will tell you all the things you want to hear and can earn that money. How much of that plays into this?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
What companies are willing to pay for?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Right. But now, I mean, once we remember who they are, they are ruined forever. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
We've already forgot their names.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
No, it's the best question and it's like the first thing that people ask, right? Why would this be valuable? AI can do this. And it's yes and no. I mean, yes, you can generate content through AI and I'm sure it will get better. But that plethora of content developed by machines is actually making... real, human, authentic voices more valuable.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Because as the market is flooded with this content that is generated, I don't know that this is, if it comes from someone I don't know, then how can I trust this content? But if it comes from you, I know you, I've seen you, I already trust you. When it comes from you, that is so much more valuable. And so we're actually seeing the opposite of what you would think.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
The existing newsletters, videos, influencers are commanding even higher prices because people know and trust them already.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
But how does someone get started there? Right. Because like you can't build that reputation without like I can never out content creates AI and computers. Right. Like I could just like they can make it so much more. I'm like, I have to be really focused on. I want to make this thing and it's going to take me three hours. And what other thing am I not going to do for three hours?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Amazing. Did Florida have like the area code turf wars? Like in LA, like it's a thing. Like if you have a nine Oh nine, like you're like, no, no, no. Like you're out of here. And yeah, it's, it's very, and then like they split too. Cause it's like, it's like this moment where like, Hey, we have too many phone numbers here. So like I have a six to six, which I'm very proud of for a lot of reasons.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
But then if I'm getting started today, where do you even go?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It's well, it's not about. I mean, quantity, you're never going to beat a machine on quantity, right? It's about your unique voice. I think the thing that separates influencers across the board, and we see this, like when I place for a client, I'm not just looking for, can this person actually reach this number of eyebrows?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Obviously that is important, but it's, are they experts in this specific area? niche? What is their voice? Are they trusted? Who is their audience? And is their audience dialed in, right? There are newsletters that you can go place in a sponsorship in and get way more impressions than you can through Freeman and Forrest, but the clicks and the impressions are worthless to you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And so, you know, we really focus on high value, high impact impressions. You're really dialing into, these are specifically the people who are either going to buy and or use your products.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And full disclosure, like Emily, you've reached out to me to make content on behalf of someone. And I was never an expert for any of those companies. And so it was like, yeah, this doesn't seem to make sense.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah. And so that's, it's really important to me to, to work on that and to make sure that that authenticity holds and that the, the creators that we work with are going to be the best ones matched with each company. That's, that's the sort of magic of Freeman and Forrest.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And we have learned so many things that I wouldn't have even thought of prior to starting this business. But think about at a company, like I'll pick on the large companies who struggle with vendors. A cloud to onboard a vendor to one of the major tech companies, six month process takes forever. So to do that with 20 influencers is impossible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And I was like, I'm holding on to that six to six.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
So for us with the larger companies, that's a huge selling point. It's like you write one check, we handle the rest for you. And then two, yeah, it takes an entire... This is a full-time gig.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
So unless you have a resource for a full-time role to actually scope out influencers, maintain those relationships, make the placements, look at scheduling, look at the type of content, you're not going to be able to do it because we're just experts. I mean, at this point, I know so many of the influencers, where they play, what plays well on their different assets.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
That is something I could have only learned by doing this 100% of the time. And so, yeah, it's been phenomenal learning how this actually operates and the best possible ways to get the biggest ROI for companies.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
When you say assets, you mean like someone's social network, right? Like where they have a presence or whatever they reach people.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yes. So that's how I think of like ChangeLog is an asset, right? You all are influencers, but it's like a mini to mini relationship, right? But ChangeLog has many influencers and you all have different podcasts, right, Justin? You're associated with this and other pods, other sort of, yeah, YouTube channels, et cetera.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I don't know if that's a thing other places. I know here in LA, it's just like, oh, my wife has a 909. I'm like, I'm sorry. What are you sorry for? You just feel bad for her? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
What assets were surprising to you that people wanted to reach or that you're like, cause like, are people advertising on podcasts in as much in 2024? Is it newsletters? Is it, I mean, I think that if, if people had text message access to everyone's phones, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Like you guys had a group chat, like that would be like the most intimate sort of like, Hey, I want to influence, like you're not influencing you, but Hey, I want to tell you about this cool thing, right? Like that would be an amazing thing to have for people. But also on the other end, it's like, I have a blog and, and hardly anyone comes to it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
So great question. And circling back to what Jared said at the very beginning, yes, proximity with text messages, sure. And too intimate, too fat. Like it's a violation at that point, right? And so it's finding this balance. The assets that do the best are newsletters and LinkedIn. Those are the ones that get the highest number of impressions and specifically the highest number of click-throughs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
So if you're working on something like getting someone to actually play with a product or experiment or sign up, that's sort of the path where you're going to go. On the other hand, there's awareness campaigns, right? There's companies that are doing amazing work, but they're primarily known in Europe or LATAM or, you know, and so they want to come into the American market.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I mean, Denver has 720 and 303, but I don't think anyone like, but that's a very not Colorado thing to be worried about. They're just like, we don't.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And that's where you would see a lot more of just a brand lift and see sponsorships of podcasts and more things where you're not like,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Well, let's take AI out of it for a moment. You know, a lot of times people, especially people who are just brand new either to the industry or to actually sort of learning in public, they'll say, well, what's the value of my blog post? These things have already been written. But it's not written by you, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
We all come with specific points of view, specific experiences, personalities, you know, people who really resonate with me aren't going to resonate with others and people who resonate with others aren't going to resonate with me. And I think it's finding your voice and really being true to who you are. That's the key to this. not trying to fit a format.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I think people, and I'm seeing this a lot and I prefer not to work with them. It's like people will try and rise really quickly and build an audience very quickly through being kind of mean or cutting things down or people down, being like extra spicy. I think being an influencer, you want to be like jalapeno hot, not ghost pepper hot. And it just doesn't it doesn't feel good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Not just for like brands, but like, these aren't people that I want to watch or be close to.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Cause it's, it's like the emotion hacking, right? Cause like you need the engagement. So you play on people's emotions and the quickest emotion that someone will like engage with is hatred. Right. And they're just like, Oh, I hate this. I have to reply. And I have to, it's like, Oh yeah, you can, you can hack your way into that to your blog post point though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I have so many people that ask me about writing and maintaining a blog. And I love encouraging everyone, like go own a domain and write a blog, but you don't write for someone else. You write for yourself. Exactly. Right. It doesn't matter. It's been said a million times by other people. You've never said it and you need to say it for yourself.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And you're writing the blog post that you can think through the thoughts and you could develop the rest of the idea and write slowly and be a little bored with.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Right. You have a bunch of drafts and you're like, I want to pick that one up again. Oh, I thought about that background process is finally finished. I can go finish that, you know, a couple of paragraphs and post it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It doesn't matter who reads it and. Why? Because you wrote it for yourself.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yes, exactly. And please, if you're listening to this, start a newsletter. I have so many placements and I need more.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
My college roommate had a five-digit. And it was just like, you're amazing. Like that was top tier. Like, no way. Yeah. But like it's the same thing with every social network, right? Like, cause you can get vanity phone numbers. You can buy an X, like a single letter, two letter X account or whatever. It's just people want those, those things that are important to them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I don't, I don't think we have time for it, but I kind of disagree with what you said.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Right. It's going to be a it's going to be something because there's so much just there's so much just pattern matching that is just like people don't realize that like there were patterns to exist. And I think one of the biggest things of AI has done is just like exposed a lot of those patterns. It's like, actually, it's not smart. It's not intelligent.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
It just matched the patterns from a bigger set of data. And she's like, wow, I found the pattern. Here you go. Here's the pattern back. And also I worked with and know a lot of humans that don't connect to the broader dots. Right. And in cases of like work and things are complex, but also in the cases of maturity and like my kids don't do that. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Like there's this like subset of like there are people that can connect the dots. And I love working with those people. I love learning from those people. But some of the smartest people I know remember what the world was like 10 years ago. And they're the ones that can connect the dots of, oh, we did this 10 years ago. This pattern is playing out again.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And then we can just show you the way forward. And I think that those data sets exist and AI is able to remember 10 years ago better than a lot of humans.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I don't know what this one, uh, I think, but I think the, the, like the, the human creator side of it is a lot about imperfection. And it's a lot about the things that like, Hey, you said that wrong by accident or whatever. And like, people are like, Oh, like, but you're not an AI. You didn't do it. Perfect.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Like the, it's not a forgiveness thing, but it's like, I see your humanity in that you're still learning too. And I'm with you because I'm learning that at the same time or I'm catching up or whatever. Like humanity isn't about perfection. It is about sharing all the little imperfections along the way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I will leave you with what I always tell people. You know, when we look at the perfect people on Instagram or whatever else, the perfect bodies, the perfect hair, the perfect makeup, perfect families, et cetera, et cetera. We don't actually bond with them. People bond with other people over struggle and realness. And I always think of it as clay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
When you're making a teapot, you have to scratch the surface of each side before you put the pieces together and have them actually join each other. And I think to your point, Justin, that sort of real, authentic humanity is what allows all of us to come together and to really form those relationships.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And that is something that is just impossible to replicate outside of our very broken, emotional, beautiful human experience.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
That's true. I'm currently on the, as we muddle through this era where we're like, should we leave Twitter? What other networks are available? Every time a new network comes up, I have to join, get Emily Freeman, and then basically forget about it. And it's obnoxious.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Right. I'm going to pitch you on Blue Sky. I know you're already on there. I am, but like the domain, the domain thing is really cool, right? Like you buy the domain and the domain is your authority.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I mean, it, it, it shifted it to domain registration, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I don't know. I have some, some beef with blue sky over their early days. I don't know if they've cleaned up, but.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And we don't, we didn't get to pick a new horse. We have it now a stable of ponies.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Can we talk about how LinkedIn is like the most effective social network right now? And it's blowing my mind.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I'm reporting that I don't know you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
That's totally fair.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I like it. And I feel like LinkedIn kind of, they kind of went to the Facebook route of like, you should be connected to this person somehow outside of this network. Right. And that was like, you worked together, you knew them through a conference, but then like,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
social media and everything else online just kind of like blew that up to me like i just forget i'm like forget it like years and years ago i'm like i will accept pretty much every request yeah i was like if you if i don't look like you're gonna spam me in dms like it's fine like we can be reconnected yeah and sometimes they spam you and you just wanted a nice little note so it's like okay that sounds nice yeah and then and then like at that point i can disconnect and i can block them exactly like it's yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
If you like that feature, keep it, do it for you. That's great.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Do all accounts have that feature? I don't know. Cause for a while it was only the, what are they called? Creator accounts. Like you had to like, like apply to it. Uh, same thing for like long posts and videos. And there was a handful of things that they gated behind this. Like you had to have so many connections and follow or connections first, then you could apply for it. Then they approved you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Cause I did that like three or four years ago. And at that point it was just like, I don't know what feature is, is for everyone or which one is like special. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Yeah, I feel like Twitter is for the fast stuff and LinkedIn is for the evergreen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
My family's all in Northern Alabama and my father growing up, uh, my, my grandfather was horrified of tornadoes. In fact, the school knew that a storm was coming when my grandfather walked across the courtyard to fetch all the, the, his kids and all the cousins. And then he would make everyone sit in the cellar for way too long. And so they called it the cellar dweller club.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Exactly. Just sitting there for hours.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I saw another one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
But I go see it tonight, actually. So we'll see. I'll let you all know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Well, I thought it was just because they didn't want to say Twister, too. It's just Twisters.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. That's true. Every sequel needs a clever name now. That's true.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
No, it's because they're remaking every movie from our childhoods.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
And they're trying to trick us into thinking they're new f***ing movies. Oh, can I curse in here? Sorry. And they're not.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Oh, Wonka was a crime. A sheer crime.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I'll leave it as a background process. And then just randomly in the middle of conversation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
I mean, there's plenty that are good, but were they better than the original? Probably not.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Oh, so you're saying you would do that disinformation if you were covering up UAPs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And for a variety of reasons, these deep state organizations, by which I mean Department of Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, State Department, are absolutely freaked out about it, as are the kind of global elite that end up supporting the NGOs pushing for that same agenda. George Soros, you know, Craig Newmark, Piero Midiar, the people that basically end up financing the NGOs that the U.S.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I don't think it's imminent. But here's what I would say. I would say if it's – so first of all, if the government is running a disinformation campaign on UAPs against the American people – Right. That's bad. And it seems like that's serious business. And it seems like if they are doing that, then I would want to know. It seems like they're doing that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, I'm I'm comfortable saying I'm like 90, 95 percent that the government is hiding. Okay. And the reason I'm so confident on that is because Donald Trump said so multiple times that they're hiding information. And I cite him in the article.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So they told him something that he says has not been made public to the American people. So my view is, look, if you think it's either a secret weapons program... that it's a government disinformation program, that it's just mis-sightings, then I want the government... They have an obligation to tell us. The first article of the Constitution is congressional oversight of the executive branch.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That is why we are a democracy. If you have an executive branch that is... Even covert operations, secret weapons programs, all must be shared. It doesn't have to be the whole Congress. They have the Gang of Eight, which is the heads of the military and intelligence committees, plus the ranking member, plus the speaker and the Senate and the minorities. Those eight people... have to be told.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
government then comes along and finances, which, by the way, is another thing that we keep discovering. Like, we'll be in Brazil and we'll be like... wow, these NGOs are doing the exact same thing in Brazil that they're doing in Europe. Oh, and they happen to be funded by George Soros. They happen to have fact-checking groups that come along and fact-check as a pretext for censorship.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, maybe it's a lantern, but... Oh, whoa. It does move weird. It didn't have, like, a paper around it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It was not windy at all. That's fucking weird. It was weird. It's definitely weird. But it's not moving supernaturally. I don't, again, all I'm saying is that it's unidentified.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, also, they didn't look big. So, I mean, I'm not suggesting there was anybody in there. Right. And it wasn't an orb. Yeah, the story seems more interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They do advertiser boycotts against the social media companies in order to control the social media companies. Obviously, there was this huge infiltration of Twitter. I mean, since I saw you last, we discovered what basically looks like a CIA effort to take over the content moderation at Twitter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That's dope. If it is, it could be lightning. If that's ball lightning, that's wild. The other one would be to look at the Chinese lanterns and see how they compare to the orange lanterns.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, it's a lantern, bro. It didn't look like it, but you could be right. I don't know. I just don't know. Who knows?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So what do you think – This whistleblower says that – the other part of the story is the description of the database. And they say that there is this – very large database of high-quality videos, still photos, and also other sensory data that has captured atmospheric effects of UAPs. Christopher Mellon had said that the Pentagon has much better quality video evidence than has been released.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Show me. This person says that there's a lot of it. And they describe one case of an F-22, which is an amazing fighter jet, being escorted by a set of UAP orbs out of its target mission area. Another case of a UAP declining from very high up in the atmosphere and coming right over an aircraft carrier that the entire crew saw. So some incidents that have not been reported.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
The report is in the hands of members of Congress. And this is a critical time because, again, if you are a skeptic, if you're a debunker, whatever, you should not want the government spreading disinformation on this. If you want to get to the bottom of it, we should get to the bottom of it. We need Congress to hold hearings.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And then the other pitch I'd make on this issue is that these people that I'm interviewing, if they're – first of all, if they're actors, they're incredible because they are genuinely terrified when I talk to them. They're genuinely scared. You know, most actors aren't very good actors. So I'm always like these guys are the greatest actors I've ever met, these people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It was former CIA people, Aletheia Group, which basically was – we discovered these internal memos where they're basically trying to come in and create a special new content moderation, which is, of course, code for censorship. How did they frame that? They framed it – it's so fascinating because, of course, we can see all the memos and we have it, so it's not a theory. They were addressing –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So they need better whistleblower protections. And if you interview congressional staffers, members of Congress, they will acknowledge that whistleblowers do not have proper protections, whether for UAPs or anything else.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
We had done something on something called the Cyber Threat Intelligence League with Taibbi showing this. And it was an early military censorship operation. And they had a list of tactics. And one of them was to get people banned on every platform. So you're basically just depersoning people, just destroying their career.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I don't know. I don't know. All I'm really confident saying is in other words, I'm very much an incrementalist in the sense that like I like my stories to move the ball forward. It's been over a year since I've done a story on this. And I was always like I'm not going to – I'm not somebody that wants to just – I mean on some things I'll write a similar story like a free speech or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But on this issue, I'm like I'm not going to write a new story unless I really have something. Right. I'm very confident that the government is not revealing all that it knows and that Arrow, the organization that the Congress created to reveal what the government knows, did not reveal what it knows. And that really it was engaged because, look, it's one thing to be like.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Hey, we didn't find anything. It's all good. But then for the guy that was running that program to come out and actively disparage people in the ways that they're doing, that's character assassination. That's the ridicule strategy. I object to that because I don't think that that's conscionable. I think you can be like, look, that person misinformed it or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You thought that the orange orbs were something that they weren't or whatever. But to go out there and like actively disparage people, that really, I think it's very concerning. It is concerning. And it also makes you very suspicious. Yeah. So why would you why the need to be such a dick about it? Is this still a picture? No, no, no. The distance like it's a it's it's a strategy of of of counter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's a strategy of character assassination. And I think it's not something that our government should be engaged in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean I think that if you read through the histories – so I mean I just think the problem is that there's so many possibilities of what's going on. Like I said, I'm a little skeptical that we've mastered anti-gravity because that would just be so game-changing and I think it would just take a huge amount of effort on the other hand.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I have interviewed people that are not comfortable coming forward yet that say that we have and claim direct evidence of that. And it's just not, I can't unfortunately say much more about it. And these are folks that want stronger whistleblower protections to be able to come forward. But I find it hard to believe just because of my knowledge of nuclear that we've got those capabilities.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I also, you know, like what's amazing is like the most for me, one of the most amazing parts of this is when you just go to the newspaper archives and you're reading stories from the 40s and the 50s and 60s and 70s. And you're seeing and that's part of the reason I am also with you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I'm skeptical that we are getting any closer because there's a way in which like you read New York Times magazine stories from the 1960s and 70s that actually treat the subject differently. not with ridicule, but treated seriously. And they actually were reporting on government programs and whatnot.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They basically were – in the internal – in the sales pitches from this Aletheia group, they were selling the – they were basically hyping the criticisms that Twitter was getting for not censoring enough. And then they were saying, well, we're going to bring all this intelligence experience and we've got these people that are really skilled at foreign languages.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. Which, by the way, if you watch that original press conference where he says it could be swamp gas, which I think it was a Michigan sighting, the whole room just goes, ah. The whole room is so convinced that it's not swamp gas. It's like journalists. They ridicule the idea that it's swamp gas. So there's definitely moments in history where you have elites –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You know, media elites, government elites and others who are like, this is a real phenomenon we need to take seriously. I think we're in that moment again now. Congress needs to do more. We need to have those protections for whistleblowers. They need to pass this disclosure legislation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And anybody who, in my view, who anybody that's like a debunker or a skeptic or whatever, who says that we shouldn't pass legislation to disclose what the government knows. For me, that person is acting in bad faith because if you're really sure that there's nothing there, then you should be first in line to demand disclosure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Let's say that there's extraterrestrials, and the government knows about it. And let's say maybe they're already in contact. And then the government comes out and goes, hey, we've been in contact with extraterrestrials. Mm-hmm. Like, what did they say? They go, the extraterrestrials told us that there is no God and that they were just they had they created all these religions.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Then the question is, why would we believe them? I mean, in other words, like if you're like a truly... Who's saying that? I'm not saying anybody is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No, I'm saying that if you go through the scenario that goes, oh, societies will collapse because people will... It'll counter... I mean, that's the story, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It depends because, I mean, I think that you have a scenario where it goes – again, we're just completely – I'm talking mass hysteria, fear. I don't know. I mean if the government is like, look, we've been in contact with them for decades and here's what they want. They just want an earth base and they want some of our – You know, whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I think if they were like, actually the abductions are all real and we signed a deal to trade technology for abductions, that could be problematic. Do you think that's real? I've read that before.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, but we've gone through- I mean, I included how we've protected gorillas in my book, Apocalypse Never, and we actually- I saw a gorilla in a zoo just a few years ago.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean they were promising to bring in people that spoke all these different languages. Yeah. And there was some internal resistance within Twitter, but it basically was on track to happen. And then Elon buys Twitter and it all ends.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Joe, you've got to go see gorillas in Central Africa live. It's incredible. It's an incredible experience. But a huge amount of people have, I mean, Diane Fossey, I mean, people have fought to protect gorillas in their native habitat. The gorillas know we're there. Right. They actually, you have to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That case, I just read a debunking of that case. Debunking? Yeah. How can you debunk it? And I found it. You found it? There it is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, was that so hard? Why did that take four days?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
USAP is just an unacknowledged special access program. So they say it's bullshit. I think I'm going to—well, I mean, I would expect that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You're saying if there is truly extraterrestrials, then the government would do disinformation. Yes. I think that's interesting. That makes sense. I mean... Because they always go, people always go, well, it's just a secret weapons program. And so they're just trying to create the aliens around it. But we had a Manhattan Project.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I mean, honestly, I go I mean, I'm careful. I don't want to engage in hyperbole, but I do feel like what we're seeing is totalitarianism, that this is it's not tanks and torture chambers, at least not yet. But the this instinct, this this demand to control the entire information environment, because, of course, it's not the censorship is in service. Of actually propaganda.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, right. I mean, remember Mike Pompeo, Trump's CIA director, when he was asked why they didn't release all the JFK files, he said because some of the people involved are still alive. So that is potentially a plausible reason if we assume Mike Pompeo was telling the truth about why they didn't release all the JFK files.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Then they should do, by the way, then they should do blanket amnesty. I agree. That would be one way to solve that problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You mentioned the Bob Lazar case, and I don't know if it's true or not, but I think the ad hominems, like when you see them using ad hominem character assassination, you're like, well, wait a second. Plenty of dirtbags. um, are right about things. Sure. Many of them worked in the FBI and CIA and the military.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Certainly plenty of people, like in other words, everybody that worked on secret weapons programs was like a boy scout, you know? So, so the idea, so the, the, the character assassination and the homonym for me is a bit of a tell that there's something, there's some other agenda going on than just being like, no, there's no information or almost always.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And we know it's so effective because the other thing it does is it scares everybody else off. So you end up only – the few people that are willing to do this are people that are more confident. They've got a career. They're not worried like I'm – Or they're just people that just feel compelled.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They both want to prevent certain information from getting out, and then they want to promote certain information. I just reread 1984 by George Orwell, and it's like, this is what he's talking about. This is what he's worried about.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It feels like people should know. Look, and that's why the whistleblower came forward is because David rushed his courage. I don't think we're alone.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They're very – if we're not alone, then the phenomenon is just so elusive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
If we're not alone – then the reason that we don't know what they are is because of them and not strictly because of the U.S. government. I think both. Because if we're not alone and they are doing all these things, then they're certainly more than capable of making themselves known.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But then what are they doing? I mean, that's the thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
We observe... But the other thing, we observe... Remember, it's interesting, because the study of gorillas was always part of actually protecting gorillas.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's amazing. It's a golden age of journalism, too. I mean, it's a great time to be in journalism.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I appreciate you. I appreciate you opening up the conversation in the ways you have. Honestly, there is no way that the whole society could be having this conversation about UAPs if it weren't for you. True story.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, 100%. In fact, it's not just that. They were using social media to support – I mean CIA, intelligence community, defense department were using social media for Arab Spring, for the color revolutions in Eastern Europe. It was a weapon. It was part of what they call hybrid warfare, getting people – mobilizing people in the streets to do regime change, to overthrow governments.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean if you can – The holy grail for, I mean, it's like Sun Tzu, you know, the best way to win is by not having to fight, you know? So if you can not have to fire any bullets, if you don't, you know, CIA 1.0 after World War II, you know, it's a crude military overthrow of governments.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
CIA 2.0 regime change is you put a bunch of people in the street, peaceful protest, get the head of state to resign or call an early election and then overthrow the government that way. So social media was a tool of U.S. government statecraft, right? for whatever that period was when, you know, Arab Spring 2011 until 2016.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And then, yeah, I think it was basically Brexit, Duterte in Philippines is another right-wing populist that gets elected, Trump. And even though I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming that Trump was not elected because of social media. He was elected because he defeated his opponents and his Republican opponents in the debates. And then...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You can't make a career as a journalist or a politician if you're banned from every platform. So that was one of the most dramatic parts, all in secret, all open investigations ongoing. And basically, there's no checks and balances. There's no chance to argue with it. So that came out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
defeated Hillary in the election, mostly through conventional media. His use of social media and those other things clearly triggered a reaction from these deep state organizations. I like it. It's funny. I just read this beautiful history of the printing press and Oxford history.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And the printing press at first, you know, 15th century, first hundred years, the Catholic Church is just like, we love the printing press. You know, we're just cranking out Bibles and It's going great.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And then Martin Luther gets a hold of the printing press and prints his theses, which are mostly attacking the church for corruption, for selling indulgences as a way to pay for your sins, basically. And he condemns that. And he literally goes viral. I mean, when you read that history, you're like, it's eerily similar to social media. I mean, it's amazing because...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, I mean, long story short, there's like a long period of revolutions and wars and the Protestant Reformation and then the Counter-Reformation. And they're like the printing presses. They're like hiding them in people's houses. The church and the government is trying to – is arresting people for having printing presses. The printing presses go to Netherlands.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They're sneaking the printing presses into the Netherlands. Wow. And so it's like you can't help but see it. You're like, wow, it's like VPNs. Because in Brazil, when they were like, we're going to ban X, we're like, get a VPN, you know, and VPN in. Still hard for people to post publicly because that would obviously show that they were on it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But still, it's like you're always and this is sort of an argument. This would be an argument for Elon to cut a deal to get X back up in Brazil. And I'm not saying that's what he should do. I'm just saying one argument for it is that, you know, stay in the game.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Don't let them confiscate your printing press out of principle or pride because at some other point, you're going to be able to find a way to work around that censorship.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They have a line in their constitution that is extremely strong, that there should be no censorship for social or political issues. The problem is that their constitution is so long and it was created by so many people that there's then all these other caveats, like you can't engage in racism, you can't engage in hate. You can't there's the Nazis are Nazi parties banned in Brazil.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So there's all sorts of other things that I mean, the Constitution is full of contradictions. It's a huge problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It made me the whole experience, by the way, because, you know, when you're growing up and you go and you grow up and you go to, you know, you go to elementary school and high school and the teachers are telling you the Constitution of the United States is so special and you're just like, oh, come on, you know, like whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But you realize when you get older and you you realize the First Amendment, It's so radical because basically every other country in the world, certainly every other Western country, the progression of free speech was you would ask the king for permission. He's like, oh, king, can we criticize you for this? And he'd be like, oh, OK, we'll allow you to do that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And Elon responded like three days later and was like, yeah, Brazil's like the worst in the world and just starts attacking the Supreme Court justices like Darth Vader and Voldemort and doing what Elon does.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But free speech was something gradually granted to the people. Here, as soon as they get the Constitution done, Jefferson and other anti-federalists, the people that were pretty skeptical about even wanting a country, were like, we need a bill of rights, and the first thing up there needs to be free speech, and it's without qualifications.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So the First Amendment doesn't say, except for libel and defamation and imminent incitement of violence, those things were Supreme Court rulings in the 250 years after the Constitution was ratified in 1789. And so that's why it's so amazing is that you just never... I mean, this history I just read of free speech is so amazing because all this battles over how much free speech to have.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Is it just for the elites? Is it for the people? Then you get to the United States and it's just a clear moment in history where the founders of this country were just like... Fuck it. Like this is essential. Like the speech comes before the government, the government. You don't have a government and then have free speech.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
We have free speech as an inalienable right from God or from our creator or just something that we're saying that we have. And then you make a government based on speech. So this Orwellian idea that we hear, including
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
you know, tragically from Barack Obama and now his two secretaries of state, John Kerry and Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates, they're saying we have to have censorship to protect democracy. It's like the most Orwellian un-American idea. It's anathema.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
My colleagues don't want me to talk about – don't be conspiratorial about this. There's other explanations for it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Fast forward to last month and they had a huge protest in Sao Paulo, one of the largest free speech protests in history, which was itself just amazing and inspiring because free speech has been something that we didn't really think we had to fight for. So to see like hundreds of thousands of people in the streets of Sao Paulo was amazing. I was there with the former president.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean that's kind of run-of-the-mill corruption. I mean with Gates, you get into Epstein, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Every day, every day. You've been neck deep in the chaos of the world. I made it to Brazil and back, so I'll put it that way. What was that like? It was intense, man. I mean, it's still going on. We did Twitter Files Brazil. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean so I'm not saying this is the reason. But I mean it is – like this is not a theory. The current CIA director – Bill Burns was at Epstein's apartment multiple times. Bill Gates was there. I believe the last time I checked, nobody knows how many times actually Bill Gates was with Jeffrey Epstein.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
He went out and did this, you know, really he did this PBS interview where he just looks guilty the whole time in his defense of talking about Epstein.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Which is just the wildest thing to say. It's weird that – yeah, like you're like that's what he was thinking. When she was like, why are you – he's basically like, why are you going on and on about it? He's dead. It's like, well, we weren't talking about him. We were talking about you and your relationship with him. Right, right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So, I mean, look, so obviously there is – there was a sex blackmail operation. I mean, I'm 90, 95 percent on it. I think the Wall Street Journal reporters who did fantastic reporting on this are probably 99 percent. That was a sex blackmail operation. They were shooting film. There were one-way mirrors. They were entrapping people. There's known connections to Mossad.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And I just don't believe that Mossad operates in the United States without –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And they're underage. Yeah. And then the next thing, and you don't know it, but that mirror on the wall, someone's filming you. And then you're owned. Yeah. So, I mean, look, that's possible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, and that Epstein was killed in jail. I mean, that's just the most suspicious thing. I mean, I don't know anybody that thinks it was suicide.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They believe it. So, I mean, look, that could explain it. I mean, look, I think Soros really believes this stuff. I think Gates. I mean, these are people like when you get that powerful, you don't stop wanting more power. You want more power.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Right. Assuming you have skeletons in the closet. I mean, we do know one of his affairs with a young Russian chess player. Bridge. Bridge player. That's not contested. That's established. When he was going through his divorce, Melinda, you see the leaks to the New York Times about Epstein occurred while she's negotiating over the divorce. So clearly she knew something.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You don't necessarily need that. You don't need Epstein to explain Gates. But I mean, Gates, he just came out with a Netflix documentary. This wasn't some like offhanded remark. He was on the whole Netflix documentary talking about specifically at great length about why we need to have censorship apparatus in place. And he gave multiple reasons.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
He sort of sees me, brings me up. I'm up on top of the stage. He's just yelling at the crowd. Everyone's worked up. He kind of looks over at me and covers the mic. He's like, it's Schellenberger, right? He's like, Michael Schellenberger's up here. And the crowds just, you know, they knew about the Twitter files.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I just did a debate with Bill Nye in Florida. He's the science guy. The science guy. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Because I'm anti-science, obviously. You must be. And, you know, I mean, I just pointed out that simple fact that I just point out the vaccine didn't obviously prevent infection or transmission. And the crowd, oh, you know, how can you say that and whatever? And it's like because it because everybody knows it reduced hospitalizations and reduced death. And I agree with that. I mean, that's fine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But the point isn't I'm not arguing about the vaccine. I'm arguing that it didn't do what they said it did. And nobody's actually. And then they just gaslight you as though that were the reason they were telling you to get the vaccine in the first place was to reduce hospitalization and death. No, they were telling you that it was going to reduce infection and transmission.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But you're saying that we don't know. How do we know if it reduced death? Well, because you could compare the vaccinated to the unvaccinated group, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Afterwards, we go down and it's just, you know, it's just a lot of emotion and anger, but also hope. The Brazilian people are, for me, it's like one of the most exciting cultures in the world because they're so expressive. The president, like while he's speaking, he's like crying. You know, it's a very like emotionally open culture.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That is a good question. Honestly, Joe, I'm not a COVID vaccine expert.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You know, I'm going to go back and look at it. I'm working with a new colleague who's an amazing expert on the COVID stuff. But, yeah, it's not my area. I mean, look, I think obviously they sold it to us as though it was the polio vaccine. And it was more like the flu vaccine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So now, I mean, the question for Elon, they're having to negotiate this, is do you out of principle keep X banned in Brazil to defend the several dozen people that the government is requiring be banned permanently? But that means that 20 million Brazilians are denied X as a platform. Or do you go along with what the government's demanding and hope to fight for another day?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. Kind of crazy. Totally different than the story we're told.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
God, great question. I'm assuming high, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
This is also it's also in the United States is worse because, I mean, Europe did not require the vaccine. In fact, I believe in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, they did not require for children in particular.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Like I just interviewed Tracy Hogue and she was saying that she spent a lot of time in Denmark and Denmark said, don't give your kids the vaccine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, we're seeing it on the trans medicine as well. The Europeans, because it's centralized socialized medicine, when Britain says... You should not give kids puberty blockers. They end puberty blockers across all of Britain. They did it first in the NHS hospitals, which is the socialized medicine, and then they did it for the whole country.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And the conservatives did it right before leaving office, and then Labour comes in and they go, we're upholding it. So what is the debate with Bill Nye, the science guy? What was his position? Well, in that case, it was just more like they were – I mean it was kind of a collective gaslighting where everybody has now – I mean I think it's unconscious, by the way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I don't think they're deliberately doing it. So maybe gaslighting is not fair.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They go right from – they just have forgotten. It's like retconning. you know, the, the narrative. So they just kind of go, no, no, it's, it's about reducing hospitalizations and death. It's like, but that's not the way you sold it to us. So can we just take a beat and acknowledge that you've changed your justification for the vaccine, which means that it's motivated cognition.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's not like you're like reconsidering vaccines now that they, because what you should do is go, okay, The vaccines didn't do what they said they were going to do. It didn't stop infection or transmission. Now, maybe there's another reason we want them and we should consider it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But you should take a beat and pause before you just sort of rush ahead to being to justifying vaccines for some other reason.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And what was his position? It's just the same as Peter Hotez and all of these guys. It's very authoritarian. What Fauci and Hotez and Bill Nye call science is not actually science, because science is a process. The way they talk about it is more like- A doctrine. Yeah, exactly. Or in a dictatorship where it's like science is done by scientists. Well, actually, science can be done by anybody.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's like journalism. Like you don't need a PhD to do science. Like science is something that you do. It's also not the same. I mean, sometimes you have experiments in labs, but science in the world of ecological biology is just going out there and counting the number of gorillas or whales. Right. So when they say science, they really mean like obey me. That's what they mean.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
We actually don't know, but probably under 100.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's the opposite of that because remember it comes out – science comes out of Christianity. It comes out of this desire to understand God's creation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And then over time, the church gives more and more freedom to these scientists to study things that end up being quite inconvenient like the earth revolves around the sun or there's this – there's evolution or all these different things that scientists discover. It's the opposite of doctrine. They're discovering things that are counter-doctrinaire.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So it's becoming – I mean this is where you get to this – science is basically – people are trying to make it take the place of religion. They're trying to turn it into an authority. And of course it can't do that because science is just supposed to tell you how things are. It's not supposed to tell you what you should do. That's the realm of ethics and politics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, all these early scientists, including Newton. Here it is. I don't know if that's correct.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Misinformation. You can see every country in the world is particularly obsessed with COVID misinformation and election misinformation. But to give you an example of how arbitrary and unjust it is, there's one of the members of Congress who's one of the most dynamic. He's not actually in the party of Bolsonaro. That's the controversial former president. He's in a different party.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They've proven it. They actually do studies where if you put somebody in a white scientist's coat or a white doctor's coat or put a stethoscope on them, people trust them more. Sure. It's just automatic. It's incredible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So the most unscientific thing is when people say things like the science is telling us to do this. No, no, no, no, no. Science doesn't tell us to do anything. It's describing reality. You can make predictions of what would happen if you do different things, but that's not science telling us what to do. Science can't do that. Especially when you stifle debate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
His name is Marcel von Hatten. And he was he got into he didn't even know this until the Twitter files Brazil came out. And then Elon did release because the House of Representatives, Jim Jordan asked for these internal files from X. He subpoenaed them. So we even learned more information from those files.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
If you're just defending the speech that you agree with, then you're not actually defending free speech. The test of whether or not you're defending free speech, same as the test if you're defending science, Bring it on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
We need to do a devastating takedown of these fringe epidemiologists referring to the Barrington Declaration, Bhattacharya and the two other.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Koldoff and then, I can't remember, Sunitra Gupta from Oxford, I think is the third. But yeah, I mean, even a more dramatic example is like, you know, a lot of the people that did the early pioneering work showing that COVID escaped from a lab were like anonymous people on the internet, anonymous sleuths.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
that is legitimate i mean that the idea like credentialism credentialism is the enemy of science the idea that you need to have some some established credentials in part because the system reproduces its own ideology professors give they hire people and give tenure and give phds to people who agree with them that's how they feel like their legacy will continue they don't normally
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
promote people, the younger generation, if they have radical disagreements for them. So they're necessarily going to come outside of the establishment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They showed that Van Houten had – he was supposedly being deplatformed for election misinformation. But it turned out that the video he posted was posted the day after the elections and it had to do with labor issues, had nothing to do with elections. And that's just really common. I mean you just see – it's just arbitrary rule by one guy. That's why I say it's a dictatorship.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And it's even more dangerous when it's in the health and medical context. I'll give you another example. I mean, American Academy of Pediatrics, my friend Marty Makary just came out with this amazing book called Blind Spots, where he looks at American Academy of Pediatrics. Look at what they did. They recommended letting babies sleep on their stomachs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
that resulted in the sudden infant death syndrome. Many babies died from that. Suffocated, right? Suffocated. They recommended not giving children peanuts, and they created the peanut allergy epidemic. They and now they're now they're recommending transgender medicine in all three cases. There was never any science to support any of those positions.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And it's bizarre because I was I mean, when you read this book, you kind of look into it. You're like, what was going on? Was there some special interest or whatever? It was just like ego. And also it was a desire for. In many cases, desire to have answers to problems that they should never have given answers to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Peanut allergies, for example, there were a tiny number of kids who had peanut allergies. But they came to AAP and they said, what should we do about it? And AAP goes, well, it's better just to be safe than sorry to recommend that parents don't give their kids peanuts. They ended up creating the peanut allergy epidemic.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It could be. I mean, in this case, they had a pretty good study comparing American kids to Israeli kids. And the Israeli kids had peanuts at young ages and they didn't have these allergies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, what's so amazing about that, assuming that Marty's account is correct, what's incredible about that story is that you had... So first of all, something like over 14 years went by before they did a study showing that depriving the kids of peanuts at a young age was creating the allergies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But there's a whole field called immunology, and there's all these immunologists who were watching this happen, and they would know from their basic theory, which has been around for thousands of years, that you would end up creating... Right. By not having that early exposure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So one of the crazy so you're always like I haven't this is like another case of this is like we're we're working on I'm working on this study of like the last Harvard president who came to power, Claudine Gay, who ended up leaving. She was not a great scholar. She was actually in trouble for plagiarism. That was why she ended up having to leave.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And three days later, that was back in March, three days later, Elon just throws down and starts to attack this main Supreme Court justice, who's the guy that's now banned X. So X is banned in Brazil. They're in negotiations, but... It was very exciting to be there, and the Brazilians were just relieved.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
She said the crazy things about... Someone commissioned the plagiarism to go after her because of that. But what's amazing, when you look at it, Chris Rufo surfaced this glossary, this DEI glossary, diversity, equity, inclusion glossary, that was all these words that you were supposed to use. Basically woke... language you're supposed to use.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And she was the DEI going around and making the professors and the faculty all use this language. I mean, it's Orwellian. How is it that like these power... You're a Harvard professor. You're like... This accomplished person, you've achieved a lot. I mean, maybe you're actually part of the problem in some ways.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But how is it that you would just – some faculty member gives you a list of – a glossary and you just go, oh, OK, I'm going to use your words? It's like something's going on in these institutions where people are bullied into – Things that they know are wrong, you know, and so it's a failure. It's not just an intellectual failure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's like a failure of courage as well, so that you just end up going along with. I don't want to be the guy that is accused of being a racist. I don't want to be the person accused of of causing childhood peanut allergies, even though that's the thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You don't want to miss out on tenure. There's all these things going for you, but it's classic racism. Emperor's new clothes we're like gonna ever be in the room is like this glossary is racist and insane or Telling parents not to give kids peanuts is insane because we've never had more allergies since we started banning this How did it go on so long?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I think that's one of the things that you know that that is one of the remedies I think of the of the internet age and having these alternative media that is a remedy to basically have people calling bullshit on it from outside those institutions Because, I mean, this is American Academy of Pediatrics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
If you're just an ordinary new parent and you're, you know, oh, the other one, by the way, is infant formula. AAP recommended seed-based infant formulas, which were terrible for kids. And, of course, we know that breast milk is superior for all these reasons and the antibodies and creating the immune system response.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So, I mean, here you have the major organization recommending how to take care of kids with not one but four separate health scandals that it helped to create. Why should that organization even exist anymore?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Huge. I mean, it's maybe one of the biggest issues in Brazil. It's the president of Brazil who probably hasn't gotten enough. criticism for it because he's going along with it. He defended the censorship. This is Lula.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
you know, American Medical Association. And, you know, how about COVID? I mean, most Americans agree now that COVID was invented in a lab in China escaped from the lab. So you have another case where these institutions are actually creating the problems they claim to be solving.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean this is actually the subject – you asked me what the new book was and this is what it is. Pathocracy is the new book. Why elites subvert civilization and that's the big question is how is it like that the institutions – and we're taking this concept of iatrogenesis where the classic example is you go to the hospital for some ailment and you end up getting an infection and die.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That's considered that when the healthcare system creates sickness –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Taking that and looking at a whole bunch of other institutions, why, you know, when the news media demand censorship and create propaganda, the FBI creating crimes and entrapment potentially, you know, with informants and others, you know, what's happening in these institutions that they end up creating the problems that they're trying to solve or that they're claiming to solve?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, it's such a brilliant system. And I mean, there's this famous, I can't remember if it was Jefferson or somebody who was one of the founding fathers that was like, we need a revolution every, you know, 50 years or something. That's clearly we're overripe for massive reform.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And we in 1975, we had the church committee hearings, which is where we found out about the CIA assassinations and MKUltra and the, you know, the poisons and all the stuff that the CIA was doing. We're clearly overdue for it. I mean, it's been 50 years.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And why haven't we, why did we not, where's the information? Where's the press conference? I mean, where's his emails? Where's the social media posts?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
This is the second guy. Yeah. The second guy that was recruiting people to go fight in Ukraine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I was going to say, being a loon doesn't seem to be disqualifying to be recruited into intelligence work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No, I mean, it's amazing these things. I mean, or even, remember the trans shooter? We didn't get her diary. Oh. Well, it was very – For a long time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, they say that. But of course, I did. I reported on the guy that attacked Paul Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi's husband with a hammer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And I mean, he first of all, I reported out that, you know, you go to his house and he was homeless and he was he was a drug addict and he had mental illness. And you go to his home in Berkeley and there's a Black Lives Matter sign and a rainbow flag and all that. But the media all reported that he was a right wing Trump supporter. Like that was so they were very near that at all. Oh, yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. But in that case, they didn't they didn't hesitate to release that that information that he had been posting about QAnon and criticizing the Democrats and whatnot. So it's clearly ideologically selective of who's which which assailants in from political information gets released.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Oh, it's so disturbing. It's so strange. But I don't quite understand why the cops don't rush in at that point. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Maybe there's not as much time that goes by as I thought. That seems like they're struggling. The cops should have rushed in then, right? That's awful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, I mean, for me personally, the funny thing is I had this, just coincidentally, I have this deep relationship with Brazil because I lived in Brazil in the early 90s. I was working, I was actually working towards my PhD in the semi-Amazon. I went to Rio and Sao Paulo. I interviewed Lula in 1994, sat across from him just like I'm standing across from you right now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I think both sides, both left and right, often attribute political motivations to mentally ill people. If you go through that guy's, David DePop, I think was his name. If you're going through the stuff that he was posting, it's just a mix of crazy left-right stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
We don't blame Jodie Foster for John Hinckley Jr. 's assassination of Reagan. You don't go, if it weren't for Jodie Foster. He was a Jodie Foster fan.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, look, we're in a mental – I mean, we've been in – our country is just in a bad way in terms of mental health, right? We're just not taking care of it. I mean, no country – I mean, we have a lot of guns and then you have no proper psychiatric or mental health care system.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Which is crazy because now you have telehealth and we should have a bunch of ways to deal with it, but it's just not who we are, I guess.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, I mean, I think also, I mean, yeah, 100%. And, you know, we also, unlike Europe and whatever, we don't allow, we don't coerce, we don't mandate antipsychotics to people with schizophrenia or those kinds of treatments. We're much more libertarian than that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You know, I mean, this guy, particularly the Pelosi guy, I actually, I can't prove it, but my theory would be that there may not have been an underlying mental illness. He had a rough life. He did a huge quantity of drugs. You know, there's just a set of people, as we've known from LSD over the decades. There's some people that take LSD. We're now seeing it with the high potency marijuana.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They never come back. That triggers psychosis.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, this is Mark Andreessen, who you add on, was making this point about ayahuasca, which is very fashionable among the elite set. And
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I think the point that resonates with me is when I was working in San Francisco, after the Summer of Love, 1967, when everybody shows up in San Francisco and they're tripping out on acid, the privileged kids, the educated elite, they go back to Yale and Harvard at the end of the summer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, at the time, I loved him. I mean, I was on the radical left for up until five minutes ago. Up until the Kool-Aid wore off. Yeah. I mean, really, even up until the censorship part. I mean, when you start censoring, you're just like... Not to digress, but it's kind of like, you know, back in the 90s, we were anti-war, pro-free speech and pro-gay rights.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But the working class kids, the kids that were not as educated, lower middle class, they hung around in San Francisco and got addicted to speed and heroin. And that was the early beginnings of the homelessness crisis.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No, this is back in the Summer of Love, which is 1967.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Remember, Speed really starts with the Beats. Yeah, it's the Beats, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Of the early 60s. Kerouac writes his book on Speed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. But it's an important point because, yeah, people take these drugs for a reason. They can be performance enhancing. And there's a certain group of people, I mean, you know, Carl Hart, you know, there's people that write drug use for grownups. There's people, he's a Columbia University professor.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You know, there's people that have a very high internal self-control that are able to do these drugs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And even I mean, I would even leave off the law. I mean, you do some of that. But I mean, I just we have this beautiful philosophy called stoicism. You know, it's amazing. It actually was. We now understand now that it was part became part of Christianity for. That's why. Because Christianity, the correction to Judaism, of course, that's all about compassion and care.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But when you lose the stoicism part of Christianity, it all just becomes compassion. The whole society gets around compassion. That's where you get victimhood ideology. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You should absolutely should be teaching because, of course, I mean, the problem with the focus on the trauma, you know, is like you start to everybody suddenly has trauma and you sort of become obsessed with it as opposed to like, no, the whole point of becoming a full human being. is overcoming adversity. It's going through that process.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Stoicism is a philosophy that gets you there, but it's been absolutely denigrated. It's very right-wing-ish.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Of course, it's the most emancipatory It's the most liberating philosophy because it says it's all about your mentality. It's all about what you do when you get up in the morning. It's your mentality. It's your behaviors. It's up to you. It's not up to the government.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's for everybody. He's not saying – there's other people like Nietzsche, which would say, hey, most people can't cope with the seriousness. But they're saying everybody has this internal potential. It's a completely – it's what leads to the human potential movement, the self-help movement. You get to like – I was looking at – in 1964, they passed the Civil Rights Act.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Now the left is pro-censorship, pro-war and engaged in horrible medical mistreatment of gay children in the name of trans medicine. So it's like literally like who changed here? You know, my values did stay the same, at least on those things. But anyway, I mean, I sat across from him and I just said, you know, everybody says that you're going to turn Brazil into Cuba.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Within a few months, Lyndon Johnson goes and gives this famous Harvard – I'm sorry, Howard University speech where it's like – it's just shocking how quickly it occurs where it's just basically about all the problems of the black community and how we still owe this debt to the black community and how the black community has been victimized.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Like, here's this moment where you could be like, hey, look, we've just leveled the playing field. We've got the Civil Rights Act. It's going to end racial segregation. That's all behind us. Now it's up to us as individuals. Instead, they come out and they go, now we've got to go and we pity you and take care of you. It's really toxic discourse.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's awful. And it then has just it's just expanded to everybody, including children, where like the part of the over-involved mothering of children is to treat children as though they're victims. Right. Forever. It's actually and you see how it really helps the medical the medicalization of everything. Much of what we're called the trans medicine is pathologizing and medicalizing puberty. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
The same thing with pregnancy. Pregnancy often is medicalized, is treated as something's wrong with you. And we know C-sections now, or we think it also undermines the immunity that you get from a vaginal birth.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Women with small hips. And it's just it's just overdone. Right. It's done. I mean, often you get professional women are like, I'm scheduling my my C-section.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
He does love Fidel Castro, but he said absolutely not. He does. That's a bit of a problem. No, they're bros.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. I mean, I like I'm very open to it. I just I worry that we have a quick fix society still. Absolutely. And so, you know, it's like you have PTSD. You had trauma from from, say, fighting a foreign war. You were abused as a child or you were raped as a woman. And I think those you can get some insight, spiritual insight, existential insight to confront your demons there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But you're still going to have to get up every day and confront those demons.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
The thing is that in Latin America, like everybody on the left, even some of the center left, they actually had a lot of respect for Fidel Castro. I know it's amazing, but they really did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. He's a very, Fidel's a very, he was a very charismatic person. I actually met him too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. We can't seem to find, you know, we do freedom really well here in the United States. We can't seem to find the balance between that and proper care for people. I mean, the Netherlands has potency limits on marijuana. We don't. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I think the bigger thing is, you know, you go to Europe and it's like younger people will drink alcohol in moderation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Oh, wow. September 21st. It's a good time to quit. Right before the shit hit the fan.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Hey, Joe, it's the replacer. Yeah. No, you. Hey, I'm going to take it from here so you can enjoy some Call of Duty Black Ops 6. Great. Now, listen up, folks. Life can be chaotic, but you shouldn't have to miss out on the latest Call of Duty just because you've got, I don't know, responsibilities. That's where I come in. I will handle the boring stuff like work, chores, even podcast ads.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I don't advocate prohibition of alcohol, but I would advocate constraining sales and just putting some limits on. I mean, the potency point is well taken.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No, but I mean, I think, you know, for example, we've restricted it to liquor stores, out of supermarkets. We've had don't sales on Sundays after midnight.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
When I was in high school, at 18, you could drink 3.2 beer. Ah, wow, I remember. And at 21, you could drink a higher potency beer. So again, your point is- How old are you?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They were like, everything that we thought was happening is proven by the Twitter Files Brazil. And they were just very grateful to Elon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, I mean, but look, the more available it is, the more people use, the more people use, the more addiction you get.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, free speech. Can you see it? Well, in the sense that there is limits to free speech. We don't allow free speech. for immediate incitement to violence, fraud, defamation. We have a high bar for defamation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I know, but we're looking at 112,000 deaths from illicit drugs last year as opposed to 20.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, no, it's not because drugs are illegal. It's because they became more available.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So you can dive right into the fight. Call of Duty Black Ops 6 is out October 25th. So dive in because I've got your back. Remember, I replace you, Blade. It's that simple.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No, they would also be dying of opioid overdose. Are you sure? Well, I mean, look, let me give you another example.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But, Joe, Europe does not have this drug death epidemic.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, right. So they made opioids too much. Opioids were too available. Then heroin was too available. And now fentanyl is too available. But it wasn't available.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
When I asked the Dutch, why don't you have an opioid adept? They didn't say because we don't have greedy pharmaceutical companies. They said because the doctor, when you go to the doctor, the doctor doesn't say, you have some pain? And this is, the Dutch are famous for this. You have some pain? Yeah, you'll have some pain.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Take some Advil if you want, but you're still going to have pain because you just had back surgery or whatever. So some of it is the culture of entitlement.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You're describing ways they became more available.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, they weren't doing as much. Very rarely.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But so the problem is, so in other words, you want these drugs to be less available, not more available. But who's to decide?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, you have to make a decision as a society because I mean, look, so Carl is right that most people that do opioids or heroin don't become addicted. The people that do become addicted, most of them are able to quit on their own. So only a small percentage of people become so addicted that they die from it. But that's 112,000 deaths a year.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So are we going to just condemn the most vulnerable people? In other words, the 112,000 people that died of drugs and drug poisonings and drug overdoses last year are by definition the most vulnerable to those drugs. Are we just going to sacrifice 112,000 people from drugs so Carl Hart can get high on heroin?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, but the number, here what I'll say too, it's a little bit more complicated. It was 20,000 deaths in the year 2000, 112,000 deaths last year. It was going up before fentanyl. So yes, it's hard to overdose on heroin alone.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. Although, let me respond to that last part. But remember, Obama comes in and he restricts opioid prescriptions around 20, I think it was like 2009, 2010. Right. So people are now going into fentanyl directly or from marijuana or whatever. They're going direct in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So, I mean, I'm not denying any of like, yeah, I mean, ultimately, kids need to be raised right. You need more self-control. You need more delayed gratification, 100%. I also support marijuana decriminalization. I mean, drugs have two dimensions, right? There's one dimension, which is the inherent toxicity of the drug, and the other dimension is how you use it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Marijuana, nobody's ever overdosed from it. Nobody ever dies. You do get psychosis. But really, compared to other drugs, marijuana is fairly low toxicity. Alcohol, actually, when you read the history of alcohol prohibition, it did actually have health benefits, alcohol prohibition, because people drank less. But I agree. I agree. I mean, I think alcohol... Like, I think it should be legal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I like I like the Dutch model. I like the restrictions because I think it does. It doesn't prevent people from getting it, but it just it is constantly saying, hey, be careful with this. Right. But meth, heroin, fentanyl, I think absolutely illegal. Do what they do in Holland. I mean, they chase people down. They chase cocaine. Do they? Is there no cocaine in Holland?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Of course there's cocaine there. Is there heroin? Sure. But they chase it, makes it more expensive because it's less available. Now, you get to you get to kind of go, well, OK, so then you get to we have a real world case, which is marijuana. We've legalized marijuana in California and many other states.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
The the criminal element controlling the marijuana growth and industry in California is larger and more more violent and more dangerous than it was before we decriminalized it. Do you know why, though? Well, I mean, I think it's mostly because the market for black, the black market for marijuana is still much larger than the market for legal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
In other words, you can buy marijuana for much cheaper, you know, informally through your dealer on the street than you can if you go into the store.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And some of that's I will grant you that it's because the California you can imagine when California decides to make marijuana legal, it's going to add a huge amount of tax and it doesn't require a set of costs that legal marijuana is just much more expensive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's more expensive than the illegal weed, though.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So you think if marijuana were legal across the whole United States, there would be no black market?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I think that's where it's headed. I mean, my understanding is that that's where Florida is headed. Is that where Texas is? Where's Texas?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I think it's always so important to remember that the people that have the worst problems are definitely a small minority. But the question is, how many people are we willing to sacrifice?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No, I mean, you can make the argument for anything. You can make the argument for everything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, but okay, but what about fentanyl then?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, I mean, I've interviewed many, many people smoking fentanyl on the streets.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I don't think that- And it's a miracle drug for people in hospitals. I mean, it's a miracle drug as a pain med. I mean, for women giving birth, for back surgery. It's a miracle.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No, I mean, I saw my mother was given fentanyl for her back surgery. It was wonderful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, okay, so here's another, so this is, so I... But something that we know that people can tolerate. Right, well, in Vancouver, they had this experiment where they said, we're going to go give hydromorphone.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
uh which is a an opioid as a harm reduction to people that use fentanyl and heroin and it's been a total nightmare because it gets diverted and people sell it in order to buy fentanyl kids end up with it i mean i think you have to remember every time you add drugs to the drug supply you add you you increase supplies you just said the same thing that's alcohol okay kids buy alcohol from a cousin who's willing to buy it for you because alcohol is legal kids can get alcohol
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
With food, I would say the tobacco model is wonderful. I mean, we did an amazing job with reducing tobacco use in the United States just through – I mean, there was some reduction in availability, reduction in advertising, and then moralizing against it. The culture changed. It's not cool anymore to smoke cigarettes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, and don't allow open air drug dealing. Right. Right. And Chase, I mean, Holland, there's a small group of people that actually the government actually they give heroin to. It's like somewhere between 50 and 100 people. It's not very many. And then they're chasing dealers. They don't allow open-air drug dealing. They're stopping cocaine from coming in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I think that, yeah, look, it's a nuanced problem, which is why we're spending so much time talking about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's you know, it's funny. The other thing that we're going to come to in the book is we're looking at assisted suicides.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, right. So so in other words, should you be free to commit suicide? I think you should. That's different from having a government program. Right. To assist it, because you would say, well, it always starts to think we're not going to promote it. But in fact, the people that are involved in assisting suicide are basically selling it. There's this amazing BBC clip of this woman.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
This doctor that's been assisting people with their suicide. And it's impossible to listen to her and not feel like she's promoting it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, we looked at it. I don't know the exact number, but we looked it up recently, and it's been increasing significantly. And it's also, yeah, one of the changes, as you mentioned, was it's now from...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
people that have um life-ending yeah life-ending illnesses to people with psychiatric disorders right or people with just depression simple depression or there was a one i just read a case of a woman i didn't check to see if it's true but i'm assuming a young woman who uh was sexually assaulted and depressed and i think it was in the netherlands They have assisted suicide there as well? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, it's a funny country, Netherlands, because on the one hand, they also did the gender medicine there. They did the drug decriminalization, but they're also very strict. So they've achieved a balance in the Netherlands I don't think we're going to be able to do here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And they're very blunt and they're very direct. They cut to the point. They're some of my favorite people in the world because I think they are able to get that balance between freedom – and care and between I mean, but they're also raising their kids different. They're not coddling in the way that we coddle our kids. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So they this is like one of the most extreme forms of censorship we've seen in democratic countries. India has been pretty bad too. But this what they were the worst of it was that they were a sucker.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
The social media epidemic that we're I mean, we just everything we just do everything epidemic over there. It's they do, but it's just not as bad.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And I would feel better. I mean, I don't think Carl I read his book and I interviewed him. I don't think he's honest about the tradeoffs. I think he sells it as though it's just an injustice. that we don't have legalized drugs, and then dismisses this very well-established reality that greater drug availability results in more addiction and more problems.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, yeah, but the difference is when you die on fentanyl, you smoke it and you're dead. They're counting as those alcohol deaths.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, literally, he's like – I mean, he's literally a world expert in drugs. Right. And so, I mean, he's just – again, it's like after the Summer of Love, the kids that are, like – I mean, he's a PhD. He's at Columbia. He's one of the best universities in the world. He's obviously somebody that has a huge amount of – self-discipline and be able to delay gratification.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And I mean, in his book, he talks about actually becoming addicted to opioids and having to kick and going through withdrawals. I mean, that's a very disciplined person. He has something to live for. One of the most amazing groups, there's two famous studies, the Vietnam veterans who were addicted to heroin that come back to the United States. They weren't around heroin anymore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They went on with their lives. They kicked their heroin and they were fine. The other group is doctors. Doctors who become addicted, you know, because, of course, there's it's available.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Big problem. Yeah. But their their recidivism rate or their their relapse rate is extremely low. Why? Because they're fucking smart. Well, they're smart and they're just one. And if they don't quit, they're going to lose their medical license. Right. And they're going to stop making mid-six figures every year. But they're also exceptional people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah. In San Francisco, I have these two addicts telling a story about how they recovered. One of them was white. One of them was black. The black guy, Jabari... is arrested multiple times from from, you know, when he starts his criminal career and as a teenager all the way into his 40s. And they keep letting them off because they're because they're because they're racist, actually.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And they're saying, oh, you know, you're a victim and whatever. Basically, is getting to a place of just very serious addiction, finally gets arrested in a way so that he can get into recovery. The white guy gets arrested once, and because they're not lenient on him, he ends up getting into recovery right away. So I think that
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I think if we can find some common ground, it would be that you would enforce some basic laws so that if you're out there on the streets dealing drugs or you're sleeping in a tent on the sidewalk after you've been told multiple times or the EMT has to come out and revive you 12, 20 times for your fentanyl.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, how many times do you just even if you don't care about the guy, how many times do taxpayers want to pay? to send the fire trucks out. I mean, it's like often a fire truck and an ambulance go out to revive a dude who often has already been revived. I mean, the one time I saw was with the Times of London reporter. Guy overdoses in front of us. They get him Narcan.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
The fire truck still has to come. The ambulance still has to come. I mean, how many thousands of dollars of staff time and medical time is that to revive that guy? Instead, you know, arrest him, you know, or get him in the system. And if you do it again, then you got to choose between rehab and jail. I think that's how you end up dealing with it. So Carl Hart. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I don't want to send the police into arresting Carl Hart. But you were saying that he downplays the negatives. Yeah. dismisses the negatives. I mean, if you go the route that he's recommending, which is that all of these drugs be legally available, you're gonna increase use, you're gonna increase availability, you're gonna increase addiction.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Yeah, immaculate conception. But anyway, so I asked Lula directly. And I actually wrote an article for a left-wing magazine at the time. I said, are you going to try to turn Brazil into Cuba and have censorship? And he said, absolutely not. Our socialism is going to be democratic socialism.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, first of all, shut down the open-air drug markets. Don't have this thing of repeated. If you if you overdose and the system has to come out to to to to reverse the overdose. Next time they come out, it should be a choice of jail or rehab. Like, that's it. You got to go to rehab or you go to jail. That was the system we had. California is about to reform the law that changed that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You know, we had Prop 47, which made shoplifting up to $950 legal or decriminalized, I should say. Same thing with three grams of hard drugs. Californians are going to vote in November to reverse that. Proposition 36, you know, it's polling.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
recriminalize crime how many times but then you're gonna have to rehire cops and you're gonna have to refund the police well yeah I mean you definitely need more police I mean it honestly it was just we had drug courts it was imperfect but you'd go to the courts and you'd be like look you need to get into rehab and you're just trying you're gonna have some amount of relapse but this thing of 12 20 times well it's also incentivizing people like in Seattle incentivizing people paying people it happens in San Francisco too apparently just paying people to stay on the streets
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Of course he is. You know, I mean, it's insane. He's like the worst. He's the worst. He's both a terrible, terrible politician and he's a terrible bureaucrat. His latest thing on homelessness is he's like, well, this time I'm going to give out the money to the counties and they're going to give me a plan.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And that was my attraction to Brazil, too, was that, I mean, here you, I mean, and to the Workers' Party and to Lula. I mean, he was super, he had all the stuff that you loved about the left, but he was going to respect free speech. So I, you know, basically after the Tour Files Brazil and the Workers' Party, you know, and Lula just start defending censorship, then I start going after Lula, too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's like you've been doing that for, you know, your entire time as governor, lieutenant governor.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That's what we mean by pathocracy. It's a sick bureaucracy that creates sickness. I'm not saying it's deliberate. It's unconscious. But it's Munchausen syndrome by proxy. It's creating, making your child or making your community sick so that you can treat them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's very hard once you lose the norms. This is an amazing book called Weird about Western industrialized educated societies. And they just talk about these core values of working hard, delaying gratification. you know, stable relationships, education. And religion. And religion.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's funny. So on both free speech and on homelessness, my best allies are Christians. They literally just have shown up. There's all these people that are secular that are like, yeah, we're with you, but they don't actually do the work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Like the Salvation Army, when I did a fentanyl protest in Los Angeles, the Salvation Army shows up and they're effective on the free speech issues in Europe. There's a group called Alliance Defending Freedom. They show up. They're so reliable. My best supporter of our nonprofit for years, just a Christian, is just gives us support. He says, I trust you. Go do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, when I look at my grandfather, who was a farmer in Indiana, lived to 101. After he died, I interviewed his neighbors and I was like, what? Like, why? And they were like, oh, yeah, the neighbor over there is 98 and that neighbor is 97. And I was like, why does everybody live so long around here? And they just go right living. And I was like, well, what's right living?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And they were like, didn't smoke, didn't drink, you know, ate right. I mean, they ate great food, obviously. They're on the farm. But also he had no choices to make.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, there was there's this really interesting book by Leah Greenfield that argues that the increase of mental illness in Western countries over the last 100 years is just this incredible pressure on the individual to make all these choices. You know, like my grandfather was like, there weren't that many.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And I'm like, you lied to me. And this is, you know, unacceptable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
young women to choose from to marry he didn't choose his religion i mean it's like absurd right like we choose we tell our kids it's like can you imagine you can believe whatever you want to become jewish you can become jewish i want to be a christian dad yeah yeah and then you go i want to be change my gender i mean the levels of choices that people have it's it's overwhelming as opposed to like he basically didn't choose any of the major things in his life he didn't choose any of them
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
He didn't choose his occupation. He barely chose his – I mean he didn't have that many women to choose from. Certainly didn't choose his religion.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But are we arguing that that's a good thing? Well, no. I mean because of course you and I would hate that. We're libertarian. Like we want – we love our choices. I mean because you were saying it's not just that – there's two things that are going on. First, people just – the church didn't explain the world very well.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Suddenly you have these scientists that are like, well, actually, the earth revolves around the sun, guys. Right. And, you know, it looks like and then there's a story about evolution, which may not be correct. But nonetheless, the scientists had a much better story of reality than the church did. And then the other thing is that just as you get wealthier, you just have more money.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Wow. Great question. I mean, there's a way in which it's the same thing that changed for the left everywhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
There's more choices. There's more things to do. And you're sort of like, why am I going to go along with what some priest said?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, the Europeans somehow – I mean, the Dutch, for example, they're very secular. I mean, these Western European societies, they have far less belief in God than in the United States. And yet somehow, you know, they keep raising their kids to be more disciplined than we're raising our kids. They don't have as – they have, you know, of course – Their cultural philosophy is better.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
There's like an inner – I do think it's a stoicism in the sense that it's – It's like when I would – my parents – it's funny because Jonathan Haidt at one point he was asked I think by – I can't remember who. Someone asked him like who's better parents, left-wingers or right-wingers? And he was like right-wingers. Even though he's a pretty liberal guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, this is the question we're always asking, which is like how because, you know, if you read the histories I've been, you know, I'm now, by the way, I'm so I'm going to spend three months in Austin every year now because I'm the CBR chair of of politics, censorship and free speech at the University of Austin. I'm the first and only endowed chair there. So so it's exciting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean my parents who are very – my mom and dad are very left. But they raised me more conservative. And the way they would do it is they'd be like – they'd be like, oh, well, that's not fair. And they'd be like, well, life is not fair. That's like a conservative view. Life is not fair. Right. And then you'd be like, well, why don't you, can you, will you get me some food?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They would teach you, they would teach us how to like push a chair next to the kitchen counter to climb up and get your, make your own food. They had a philosophy that was, if the kid can do it, the kid should do it. As opposed to, now it's like, I think there's just these over-involved parents that are like, oh, I wanna take care of you. And so the kids end up getting coddled.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Somehow, for whatever reason, in Europe, those core values of self-reliance You know, it gets when you when I interviewed like the progressive homeless service providers in the United States, they were in San Francisco and other places. They would say things like, oh, that's the whole buy your bootstraps philosophy, which is just so oppressive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's like, no, actually, it's completely liberating to be told that you have the power to do these things. I mean, that's basically what Anthony Tony Robbins is telling people all the time, right, is that you have the inner resources, the inner power. Sure. So that's got to be, I don't know how we restore it. I mean, the fear, of course, is that once that stuff's gone, it's gone.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But this thing where like after the George Floyd where it's like the Obamas are – and affluent black families are saying, oh, yeah, I'm worried about my kids. What are you telling your kids that they're like that they're going to be victims of the society, that police are all racists?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, these messages are constantly being told to people that the system that basically the broader society is essentially unfair as opposed to telling them that really the playing field is more level than it's ever been.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So I'm here and welcome. Thank you, man. Really? Yeah. We just bought a little house and not. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So, yeah, I mean, one of the... Because, of course, if you read the histories of free speech, particularly the last couple hundred years, it's really the right censoring the left. There's a few exceptions, but, I mean, overwhelmingly, all the way back to the original...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean think about how Obama was raised by his white mom, by a single mom, and his grandparents were there. She didn't teach him that he was a victim, that he was helpless against society.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean here he's like reelected in 2012. Like this stuff is starting – Black Lives Matter starts in – I think it was like – was it 2015 or was it 2013? I can't remember. But he sees all that stuff happening. There's literally nobody on the planet more capable of pushing back against all that bad wokeism than Barack Obama. Barack Hussein Obama is so well positioned to do it. He doesn't do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You know, I mean, and I think part of it is that it works for Democrats. Yes, it works. That's the problem. It works politically for them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And that but that's but that's actually a tragedy, especially for young black men.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
In this country to be teaching this idea that he does once in a while he'll say something about it. But I mean, the whole Black Lives Matter movement, which was, you know, just a tragedy, you know, where you're you're the the grotesque exaggeration of police killings of unarmed black men. He was in a position to push back against that. And they didn't do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And he hasn't done it since he left office. So that's why I say I blame him just because of what he hasn't done.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But the problem declined. I mean, we looked at FBI data from the 70s. The problem is bad cops. But it declined so much from the 70s until now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But if you calculate the number of – the increase of the number of black people killed because the police pulled back in reaction to Black Lives Matter, what we call the Ferguson effect …
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
you know, French parliament where they split, you know, the French con where they split people on left and right became a way to refer to liberals and conservatives. Conservatives were about protecting tradition, about propriety, don't say certain things. You know, that was like what conservatives were.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But also he and David Sachs, I mean, they've had such a powerful impact just in talking back to that culture.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean their podcast is so dominant now in business that I think it's just made – it's just given courage. So has Marc Andreessen. Yes. They've given courage to people to just not put up with it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Oh, yeah. It's not fun. Well, I think there was an earlier generation of tech leaders who went along with the political correctness. And so now you get Andreessen and Sachs and Chamath and these guys.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And then if you go to the United States, like the one of the most dramatic instances of censorship here is the early part of the 20th century with the Sedition Act. And that's when the that's when they were, you know, arresting socialists, incarcerating thousands of people. I mean, it's a crazy period. And so that was basically the tradition.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, I mean, yeah. So one important observation about this. So first of all, Elon was very strong on Brazil. I think that there's a way in which he's going to probably have to cut a deal to get X back in Brazil. We don't talk at all about Zuckerberg and Google. All this pressure is on Elon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I can't prove it, but I assume that that's the case. Yeah, they went along with it. I mean, only Elon stood up against it. So, I mean, Facebook is just engaged in a huge amount more censorship. You know, the fact checkers, they outsource their brain to these fact checkers who are then funded by all these bad actors.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I think the thing about the Brazil that shows is, you know, they froze Starlink's bank accounts and they seized its assets. So, you know, because people point out, you know, Elon's incredibly powerful, richest man in the world. I mean, Starlink is this incredible innovation. I've seen you talk about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But at the end of the day, it actually makes him somewhat vulnerable because then they can just, you know, it's not just about X. If the Brazilian government can come in and seize Starlink assets in a country where Starlink is absolutely essential because of the Amazon, you know, it allows for this incredible connectivity. So it really – for me, it's just you still need a free speech movement.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Like you need to reinculcate. And I think the other thing that I've realized in the last year and a half of doing the Twitter files and other censorship files is that – because I used to think that my support for free speech, that our support for free speech was sort of like natural or something. But I realized like it was taught to me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Like, I remember my father teaching me about Skogi and telling me that the ACLU had defended the right of Nazis to march through a neighborhood of Holocaust survivors. And I remember being horrified by it as a very, you know, woke kid and being like, that's very insensitive. And my dad kind of being like, well, yeah, but here's why we do it that way. Right. And it was...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Because actually censorship would then be used against other people. And he would also make this point, and I was making this yesterday to my future students at University of Austin, is that you want to know who the Nazis are. You actually want to know who the Nazis are and you want to argue with the Nazis.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You this idea that we're there's a fantasy. People say, oh, well, if we had if Germany had like censored the Nazis, then they wouldn't have come to power. They did censor the Nazis like they had imposed a censorship regime before the Nazis came to power. They were they were they were censoring them. They came to power, reinforced that system.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That's why when we were, you know, in the 90s and up until recently, you know, free speech was part of the left tradition. So what happened? I mean, what's clear about the censorship that's going on is it's counter populist. So they're going at Jair Bolsonaro like Trump is a populist candidate. So one thought experiment would be if Bernie Sanders had become president in 2016.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So much better to defeat these bad ideas in the realm of free speech. But I do think there's a whole younger generation that never got indoctrinated into the religion of free speech in the ways that we as Gen Xers did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That's just how it goes. It's an incredible sort of master tool for so many different things. I mean, it's... Half of it is just calling it censorship. These guys are so good with language. They talk about how, I'm just doing counter disinformation. Who could possibly defend disinformation and misinformation? I'm doing counter disinformation. Just calling it censorship.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
This is the most dramatic part is that they were the judge. This is a Supreme Court justice who is basically the dictator of Brazil is had was demanding that particular journalists and politicians just be banned not only from X, but from every other social media platform. Which is a tactic that we had seen in earlier censorship files.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, look, I mean, it's like I'm a journalist. I'm investigating what is the truth about a lot of different topics. I'm fighting misinformation, but I'm doing it through free speech.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, this was and that was in the Facebook files where the Facebook's tops researcher says to the White House, they go, hey, our research shows that if you censor true stories of vaccine side effects. Shocking as it sounds, people will become more suspicious of the vaccine. So it's actually, yeah, they do contradict themselves in that sense.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I think the Hunter Biden laptop story, we talk about it a ton. But what was so important about it is that the disinformation campaign comes before the censorship. They go out and they say, and this will be a segue to our conversation about UFOs. FBI gets the laptop in December 2019. They know it's Hunter Biden's laptop. They know it's not Russian disinformation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Aspen Institute, which is funded by the US government and very close to the intelligence community, then goes and brainwashes journalists and the social media companies into preparing that there could be a hack and leak coming around Hunter Biden's laptop.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And of course, Mark Zuckerberg made history here with you when he told you that the FBI had come to him in the summer of 2020 warning of a hack and leak operation. Yeah. So they do that, and then they come out, and then when the laptop comes out, they demand that it be censored.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
But the key thing there is that there was an organized disinformation effort around that laptop by people that were fed that by the FBI. This is why I'm so confident now in saying that both the FBI and the CIA interfered in the 2020 election because they ran this disinformation campaign whereby censorship was one part of it, but it was actually the part that came after the disinformation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Would the deep state have sided with – would they have sided with the right, with the Republicans to censor a populist Democratic Party? It's an interesting question. I don't know the answer to it. Clearly – I mean I would say the – if you look at what the global elite, which is kind of a center-left elite in Europe, Brazil, United States, Canada –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And it probably would have had a significant effect on the outcome of the election. I mean, I personally, I voted for Biden, by the way. And when I saw that story, I was like, there's clearly something wrong with it. It looks like it's a hack and leak. I mean, I genuinely believe that. Now, would I have voted for Trump? Otherwise, I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, also, the hack and leak was also about the Hillary emails, the John Podesta emails, the DNC emails. So it fit a particular framework. But what's important is that the FBI knew that it was legitimate the entire time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You've got to stop that. Stop that. Disinformation, because they knew it was not true, right? Right. And then the CIA, remember, Gina Haspel was director of the CIA for Trump. She was part of it because she approved the letter from the 51 former CIA directors and leaders that said that it had all the earmarks of a Russian information operation. She approved that letter within hours. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
All she had to do – I mean, look, assuming she didn't know. All she had to do was to call the FBI. Right. All she had to do was – I mean, look. They had a very clear agenda. I mean, it's such an – Joe, it's such an unprecedented thing. When you talk to Martin Gurry, who's a former CIA guy, you talk to people that –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
you know, that really love the CIA, that really believe in it, they were like, that is insanely unprecedented for these, because, you know, the classic statement is nobody ever leaves the intelligence community. So to have former intelligence people doing that is just absolutely, I mean, that's unacceptable. It's wild.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
OK, let me segue. I got to segue on that because here's the craziest thing. That Aspen Institute Hunter Biden disinformation operation was run by two people, Vivian Schiller and Garrett Graff. Vivian Schiller is this just wild. You know, she was New York Times and PR, Twitter executive, high level executive, now runs Aspen's digital initiative. Garrett Graff is this...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
you know, acclaimed nonfiction book writer, they did the Hunter Biden disinformation campaign where they program and brainwash these journalists and the social media platforms in advance of the release of the Hunter Biden story. Well, guess who wrote the big book Dismissing UFOs earlier this year? Guess who came out with that book? Garrett Graff. So what is going on with Aspen?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And Aspen is like one of their – I think it's their biggest or one of their biggest supporters is the U.S. government. So it's very – this is very, very suspicious. You should invite him on your show and ask him some questions. Why did he decide to do a book about UFOs? What was – so here you have people that I feel very confident saying were part of an FBI-run disinformation group.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
and censorship initiative on her by his laptop. Then turning around, they then did an interview. He, he, she then interviews them at like Aspen Institute, you know, classic YouTube. So I saw it on YouTube. She's interviewing him. There's this moment. It's so crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
She goes, they says, there's something like, they both kind of go, well, you know, um, the reason we, this is just UFOs are obviously a conspiracy theory is because, you know, the government can't, you know, the government is incompetent and can't get away with this kind of thing. Well, that is madness. Because, of course, the U.S. government is actually very good at keeping secrets.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
You know, from the making of the atomic bomb until today, there are a lot of secrets that the U.S. government is actually quite capable of holding. And nobody knows that better than Vivian Schiller and Garrett Graff of the Aspen Institute, who ran the Hunter Biden operation. So what they're doing is they're deliberately...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It really wants to censor on COVID elections and migration. And they do the mass migration stuff around hate. So like if you criticize mass migration, it's hate speech and you should be censored. So clearly this is a reaction by the deep state against populism, which clearly threatens them, their ability to build a wage war when they want to wage war, to move people around. I mean, it's huge.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I use PSYOP or whatever you call it, because a lot of people are experienced of ordinary normie experiences of government is going to the DMV, right? So you go, wow, the DMV, yeah, that's the government. The people that are working at the CIA and the FBI, those high levels are best, they're like some of the smartest people in the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, these are people that they're recruiting them out of the Ivy Leagues. The idea that these agencies are incompetent, and I'm not saying that they're always competent, But these are some of the premier spies that have ever existed. And the idea that somehow the U.S. government can't carry out these operations or keep it secret, that's obviously wrong.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And then we have all these whistleblowers coming forward. So that's the prelude to today's story.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's a very sophisticated book. I encourage people to read it in part to understand what's the most sophisticated take by the U.S. government. The less sophisticated treatment was by Sean Kirkpatrick, who was the recently departed head of the Defense Department's all... All SAP? No, Arrow. Okay.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That's the all-domain anomaly resolution office that was created by the Senate that came out with this very dismissive report about UFOs. And then he left, the head of Arrow left, and has now just been ridiculing and attacking all the UFO whistleblowers, including David Grush and Lou Elizondo and all these folks. Mm-hmm. But the book is... So basically, this is a book of the history of UFOs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And it basically just goes through every single major case and shows you why it's just not a UFO. I mean, basically, it's showing why it's a natural phenomenon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It's absolutely an extension of... And remember, in 1953, the CIA creates something called the Robertson Panel. And the Robertson Panel comes out and says the US government should just focus on debunking UFO cases and including ridiculing people, which is a very cruel treatment of people because it's socially so devastating to be ridiculed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And then you get the Condon Report, the Condon Committee, which is the University of Colorado, 1966 to 1968, Same thing, dismisses this, suggests it's all kooks. The Garrett Graff's UFO book is more sophisticated. It's actually a little bit more gentle in the sense that it's dismissing all these things. It's also talking about like these may be natural phenomena.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It might be plasmas or ball lightning, you know, and then they kind of go through the psychological estimation. But the whole book is aimed at just absolutely dismissing the phenomena. I mean, that's the whole purpose.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, the mass migration that's been occurring under Biden, of course, has been happening in Europe too. And everybody's like, what is, like, what's going on? Like, why is this happening?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That's what it is. There's a trinity of books there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, that's a great question. I mean, obviously, the story that, the traditional story had been that this is compassionate and, you know, it's the right thing to do and want to bring people in. There's so many, I mean, the Democrats and the Europeans, they went so far with it that it actually hurt, it's hurt them politically. Like, you know, Kamala may lose power.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, that's, I mean, I don't know what they are, and I'm agnostic in some ways.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
elections because of just the mass migration. It was like the number one thing 60 Minutes asked her about just now. In Germany, the AFD, which is considered the far right party, far just means anti-mass migration. So they went really far. I mean, I think there's probably some truth to the idea that Democrats are bringing in folks to increase Democratic voters. That's not a conspiracy theory.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I don't know what they were, but I've seen things I can't explain.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So I saw – so there's twice I've seen things. I saw – one time I saw three lights that were – I thought they were stars. And then they – and then the one on the – they were all just like – they looked almost like Orion's Belt, like three stars. And then the one on the far left –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
uh just broke away from the other two and then did and it was weird i'm this is gonna sound really weird and so i don't know just express it it just it really like literally if it felt like it was pulling my left eye the left like i was looking at them and it felt like you know how like like it's almost like you're being cross-eyed but it felt like it was literally pulling my left eye and then it just did a set of um squiggles like that and then a cloud bank came over and covered it up you know i don't know what it was
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I had no drones, didn't look like a drone, there was no noise. Did you see a shape of this thing or was it as high as the stars? No, they were just white lights. I couldn't tell how high up they were. And then the other one I saw was actually in a suburb of Houston, or was it Dallas?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And I was running at night, and there were these two guys there, two black guys, young guys, that had just gotten out of their car. And I had seen these orange orbs. And then they were filming them with their cameras. And I went over them and I was like, what are those? And they're like, we don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, they looked a little bit like, at first you thought they were Chinese lanterns, but there was no paper bag, you know, that the lanterns were no, like, there's nothing there. So they looked like... And they also kind of looked like there was some translucent thing around them. I couldn't also tell how big they were. Couldn't figure out where they were coming from.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I went and ran around the neighborhood trying to figure out where they were coming from to see if maybe somebody was sending off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Shockingly slow. Like they were sort of floating.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
They felt like they were floating. Hmm. So I'm not saying – again, I don't know what they were. What happened with them? I watched them until they stopped coming. What do you mean? I mean I just watched them. They just kind of would appear out of nowhere and then they would – like it was in this residential neighborhood and then they just – Drift off? And they would float over.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
We watched them at one point float all over downtown.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, it was just, they were also blurry and orange. I mean, I looked it up, orange orbs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I actually photographed, I have a bunch of videos of them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
We'll tell you what it is. All right. But I also want to tell you the thing we just did. All right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I need those videos. All right. Okay. So it's going to, we're going to, people are going to have to wait for me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
All right. We'll pause. All right. And I also have the ones that the guy, so the guys there, we exchanged phone numbers and stuff and they texted me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Oh, that's crazy. But did Grush mention Immaculate Conception? I don't know. It says-
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
That's something that You know, John Judas and Rui Teixeira wrote a whole book about called The Emerging Democratic Majority, where they talked about how Latinos are going to side with Democrats. And then another part of me just wonders if it's related is that there was a concern that populism – because I mean the danger – the threat of populism is that it's popular.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Immaculate conception is the name of the secret UAP Pentagon program that I revealed today.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
How's it going over there? Me? Oh, finding the – I'm trying to find the videos. How long ago was this? It was last year, and it must have been – so here's the other weird thing is that I – it was the same day that I published a story about UAPs. Oh, okay.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I mean, I felt better because there were two other guys there, you know, and I have their info.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So first of all, if they are ours and they're anti-gravity, that's just insane.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And the part of me that's skeptical of it is because I know a lot about nuclear energy and nuclear power, and it took a huge amount of effort to build the bombs. Huge amount of effort, huge number of people. So the idea that anti-gravity was then sort of like, oh, yeah, we just did that in like a couple of years or something. That strikes me as really improbable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No. Air drop, okay. So there's no people. Oh, there you are. Jamie's MacBook. Bam. I mean, they don't look like much. They're just like orange dots. But it's weird. It's weird. And I want to stress, because my critics always use this to try to describe me. I don't know what it is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
So the threat of populism is that the people actually govern rather than these deep state organizations that have constrained – pre-internet constrained what was acceptable. They narrowed the so-called Overton window. Yeah. With populism, you get potentially populations that say, we don't want to go to war in Ukraine. We don't want to support foreign wars. We don't want to have mass migration.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
Well, here's what I wrote today and what I feel confident to say. Just keep those glasses on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
It makes you look smarter. So today's piece is about a new whistleblower who has come forward and has written a report. And this is somebody that is either in government or is a government contractor working. I've interviewed this person multiple times in person. I've checked their credentials. They are who they say they are. They have written a report and provided it to members of Congress.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
And in that report, they claim that the Pentagon is illegally withholding information from Congress about a secret UAP program. And that secret UAP program is considered a parent program of other of other programs but it's called immaculate constellation I was told by a I was I had it confirmed by a second source that this is the name.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I also was told that if we revealed the name that we would probably fall and get under surveillance by simply revealing the name. I went to the Pentagon with the story on Friday. Today is Tuesday. They told me on Friday they couldn't get it to me. They couldn't get me a response by Friday. They asked if I could wait until Monday. I said, sure. They said Monday morning, we'll get your response.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
No response. They said, hopefully later today. Nothing later today. Then they said, how about tomorrow morning? Finally, that's today. So we gave them four full days. I found the Pentagon's response... What was the response? Well, first of all, because they said they were going to respond and they didn't. So they never responded? They never responded.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
I emailed the spokesperson and said, if you give me a response, I'll publish it. But, I mean, it could have been like, no, we don't have a program like that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2211 - Michael Shellenberger
If they don't have a program like that, then I don't know what the harm is from saying that they don't have a program like that. Remember, Arrow, this is the Blue Book 3.0 or whatever it is. They said they looked and they were like, we looked and there's no secret UAP program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Call of Duty Black Ops 6. Dive into a twisted 90s spy thriller in the latest Call of Duty game on October 25th. Black Ops is back with a cinematic single-player campaign, best-in-class multiplayer, and the return of round-based zombies. Get exclusive benefits with the Premium Vault Edition.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
the guys that I know that train three, four times a week and are really interested in jujitsu, doing it all the time, they're some of the most peaceful, calm, easygoing, measured, even when they talk to people in confrontations, very measured, because they're coming from a place of strength.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And most men in particular, they come from a place of trying to pretend they have strength in order to intimidate you, to get you on your back foot, get you on the heels. Like, hey, fuck you, man. That kind of douchey kind of shit is just insecurity. And these guys don't have any of that. And it's just a healthier, like, I don't think everybody should do jiu-jitsu. It's too hard.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But I think there's a lot of things like that in this world. I don't think it's just psychedelics. I think there's multiple. I think yoga plays a big factor in that. I remember I got in a car accident when I was on yoga. When I was on yoga.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
We're doing yoga so much. Me and Ari Shaffir, Bert Kreischer and Tom Segura, we do the Sober October. And every time we do Sober October, we have these things that we do where we're like, we'll have a fitness challenge or you have to do. I think we had 15 yoga classes in the month. So you had to do like a yoga class every other day for a month. And I got really into it. I was doing it a lot.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And this guy rear-ended me on the highway. And I had a really nice car. And he crashed into me. And he was on his phone. He was texting. And he was illegal. And he didn't have a driver's license.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And I was so calm about it. I was like, you okay? I was like, I'm okay. You okay? And I was like, I'm just going to take off. You know, I'm just going to get my car fixed. And I just took off. Luckily, he didn't wreck my car. He just bent the back. It was a Porsche. It was a 911 GT3, a very nice car. But his car, it was a little bullshit car, like a little Honda Accord.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And when he slammed on the brakes, it basically went under the back of my car and bumped it up in the air, and it stalled out. And his car was pretty fucked up. He couldn't drive off, but I could drive off. So I just drove to the comedy store. And I was like, okay, why was I so calm about that? I wasn't even mad at that guy. I was like, he's an illegal alien. Excuse me, immigrant.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, I've heard that as an argument against what Donald Trump has been saying about paying for IVF.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Undocumented minor, whatever he is. Undocumented immigrant. Just some dude who came from Mexico.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I said, why don't you have a license? He goes, I can't because I'm illegal. I said, okay. I go, but yet you still drive. And he goes, I have to for work. I go... I get it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But it was like a very calm. He said he was sorry. I believed him. It was just a mistake. He fucked up. Traffic had slowed. You know, L.A. Traffic like all of a sudden comes to a screeching halt and sometimes people aren't ready for it. And I really think it was yoga. I think I didn't even get mad at the guy. All right, take it easy. I just drove away.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I drove away and I thought about it afterwards. I was like, why can't it be like that with everything? Like what would help me be like that in every situation to treat every interaction with people like as calm as possible and never really get totally upset by anything. Just it is what it is. No big deal. And I was like, man, that's probably a great tool just for society.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
We need more babies. And everybody's like, yay. And then the psychos went, no, no, no. 70% of all IVF babies are never used and they're discarded. And like, okay.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If yoga was a thing that most people did every day in the morning, what impact would that have just in the overall population of how nice people are to each other? It would probably be huge.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Why don't someone do yoga, just take the poses and add them with little prayers?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And I think that's why a lot of atheists, they talk like religious people. They talk about atheism the same way religious people talk about their belief in God that they absolutely know it's true. It's kind of the same thing. They're like, no, there's nothing. I do not believe in God. There's no evidence there's God.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, I can appreciate that. I think there's something going on. I think there's something going on that we're a part of that is too big for us to grasp. Yeah, I think we're like a hand waving over a fucking earthworm and earthworm has no idea what's going on because I think it's too big.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I think just the idea of this infinite space that we live in with who knows how many galaxies and we're on this planet. And we're making babies and you're cooking one up inside your body right now. And you're going on stage and doing stand up and we're having an election and we might have a nuclear war.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I'm like, I have nine frozen, blah, blah, blah. Listen, you're just being transparent. I think that's a strong quality.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And all this shit is happening all throughout the universe, all over the place, not just here, but probably in an infinite number of planets everywhere. The whole thing's too big. And for you to say there's no God, God's not real. It's like you have no idea. You have no idea. And by the way, the evidence of there being something that's forcing this in a general direction is overwhelming.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There's something that's – whether it's some natural properties like Brett Weinstein calls it Darwinian evolution, that it applies to everything and things get better and improve and evolve. Yeah, but what is causing that? What made that? What is the overall force behind this whole thing? What's its goal? It seems to be moving in a general direction all the time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And that direction is like constant improvement of life forms, of societies, of technology. It's moving in this fucking direction. How do you know it's not God? How do you know it's not the way God works? How do you know the universe isn't God and this is the way it expresses itself?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah. But then they'll say, look, I didn't ask to be born.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Andrew Santino, the hilarious comedian, talks about it. He said it was one of the worst experiences of his life.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Whenever you have a medication and one of the side effects is suicidal. I know those those ones freak me out because they'll just say it real, real calm. These people are holding hands and spinning around in a wheat field. Suicidal ideation. What?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah. Well, also, I've always found that the people that want to control other people most likely are out of control of some aspect of themselves.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, that one's catchy. Listen, Kat, I really enjoyed talking to you. It was a lot of fun.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, also, it's like, God, it's not that hard, folks. Do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
This is a man. You should get some old man to do your voice. A British guy. Our first period.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If I see men that are like really invested in telling women what to do and controlling what some weird thing that I was reading about people wanting to monitor employees periods.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Which is crazy also because miscarriage is some of the most emotionally devastating things for women. And then to be accused of killing your baby.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
The app decided that you should be investigated in this time of insane sorrow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
stuff like well in two separate occasions I've had private text messages that were publicly available because of trials yeah so I'm telling one of them was Alex Jones and I were texting about something yeah and they wanted every text that Alex Jones and I had ever sent each other yeah I'm like, well, okay, why? Because it was all about the Sandy Hook thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And the only text that they found was there was some crazy story, and I sent it to him, and I said, is this true? That's it. That's the extent of our discussion. But that got read in court, and then it got printed online. And I was like, wow, that's crazy. That a private communication between people all of a sudden not just gets read in court, but also gets distributed on the news.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Good luck with my memes folder. My fucking memes folder is chaos.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Which is a huge factor, especially with people like us. You say funny things to your friends that you don't really mean.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yes. All the time. Half of the texts that I go back and forth with comedian friends are just nonsense.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It wouldn't. It wouldn't. Because I think people are done with that horse shit. They think it's stupid. They really do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, that's true, too. And also, there's a lot of people that just love to watch people get fucked over. They really do. And they cheer it on. They cheer it on. They get excited about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Something bonkers. Because people are just online. If you have a shit job, you know that Call of Duty is waiting. And all you have to do is put those headphones on and sit in front of that computer and now life is exciting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So, try the Farmer's Dog today. You can get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. Plus, you get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more. Offer applicable for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by Blinds.com.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You'll learn from that. You don't learn anything from the video.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right. Well, I think people going through things definitely makes them stronger. The rise of sexless men, sexless and single men, a third. Wow. So it's a third. I thought it was half.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
A third of men aren't having sex. And here's why. The last decade alone, we see the number of sexless men between ages 18 and 30 increased by 253%. That's nuts. Yeah. Wow. It's just skyrocketing. Yeah. Not good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But it's 100 percent. But it's better not to. There's no benefit in reading even the good stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, occasionally, but it's not worth the ones that don't.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
like gas station trail mix and every now and then there was a fentanyl in one no i probably is at this point but you know if you had like 10 bags of trail mix and every now and then one of them gives you a pill that puts you in a fucking coma no you would stop eating trail mix no i hear what you're saying it's hard i recently posted a video where i responded to hate tweets or whatever and i made my team go find them i was like will you guys go find the funny ones because i don't want to look at all of them
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Oh, that's better. Yeah, because you don't want to go down a spiral finding only people who hate you. And when you're dealing with something like Fox News, you're dealing with numbers. I mean, the numbers of human beings that see you on TV all the time are huge. And then the numbers of deranged people that also think the country is falling apart and they're super tribal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You know, they want you to be all in with Trump. Yes. All in. And if you're not all in, they're ready to put the duct tape and the fucking zip ties in the truck and head out the door.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I know people who give in. I know people who do it kind of disingenuously, give in on purpose.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's that's the problem. It's like you're opinionated. You like to have fun. You like to be impulsive and say crazy shit off the cuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If you're only thinking about appeasing one certain group, that power goes away.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Did you see the Amazon Alexa when they asked Alexa why you should vote for Trump or why you should vote for Biden?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Jamie, I can send it to you or you might be able to find it. It is so nuts what Amazon's, what Alexa's response is, the difference between- I'm sure there's a vast, yes. There's a grand canyon between the two of them. Yeah. Do you have it or you want me to get it? Hold on. What is this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Amazon's elected different responses about voting Donald Trump versus Kamala Harris were an error that it has fixed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's not an error because they literally asked the exact same questions about Obama and or excuse me, about Trump and about Kamala. The exact same questions. I'm sorry, I'm distracted because I'm trying to look for it while I'm talking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So just woke propaganda straight from Alexa. Just listen to the language being used. The glass ceiling.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Like a production machine level where you're like, wow, look at this thing work. This is nuts. It's like watching a car get put together by robots. Like, whoa.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Did you see where they compared the differences in her speech in Detroit versus her speech in Pittsburgh?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
We need to watch this. First of all, what's fascinating is if I was in her court, if I was working with her, I would say, listen, listen, listen. First of all, nothing off the cuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Nothing off the cuff ever. No interviews ever. Speeches never. Yeah, teleprompter only. We're busy. We're busy trying to fix the world. We don't have time for interviews. I'd say no interviews. Because interviews are when things go sideways. So like CNN was 41 minutes. They edited it down to 18 and all of it sucked.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Also, like the difference between the way they probe J.D. Vance versus the way they probe her and Walt. So listen, Kamala in Detroit versus Kamala in Pittsburgh, literally five hours apart.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's so embarrassing, too. It would be one thing if she did that all the time. Right, of course. She's got the ability to talk like that if she enjoys it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
She wants to talk a little shit. Yeah. That's how she's doing it, but... It seems like it's all this construct. Of course it is. You ever been to Universal in Hollywood where they shoot TV shows and you go down the street and it's these facades that look like a city street. But behind them is just a bunch of boards holding up the front of the building. There's no house. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
She could totally win. I know a lot of people that think it's a good idea to vote for her. Yeah, so do I. I was watching Ben Stiller with his fucking eyes glazed over just talking about how great she's going to be. I was like, this is fascinating.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And I get it. It's the lesser of two evils in their eyes. That's what they're looking at. But boy, you should not be happy with this. Nothing about you should be excited about what they've done to you because they've tricked you into talking about something in a very positive way that you just recently didn't talk about in a positive way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And there was nothing that happened that changed that person.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's great for a lot of things. It's just the delivery methods.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Oh, yeah. Most people. I almost have a fucking heart attack.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, but you're going to be pumping out nicotine for sure. Okay, but... We'll be right back. because Blinds.com has revolutionized the game. Blinds.com lets you do a virtual consultation with their award-winning design experts whenever you have time. No pushy sales rep in your home. Just hop online, and Blinds.com will send free samples right to your door. How cool is that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, but once you've kicked it, you should probably try to keep it off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Whoa. So do you start with like regular vapes that you buy at the gas station and move your way up to robots?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I don't because I don't think they ever became illegal in California, but they did make them. The mango ones. Flavored ones are illegal, which is hilarious.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Just use the code ROGAN at checkout at Blinds.com. Go to Blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN. Limited time offer. Rules and restrictions apply. See blinds.com for details. What's up?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You know, you're doing the right thing by not feeding it jewels.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
What is the side effects that they think can happen to kids?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And is that from smoking or is that from nicotine itself?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So is being off of caffeine hard or is it being, you can have 200 milligrams of caffeine a day. So is the being off the stimulus, is that the hardest or is that's harder than nicotine?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And so did you have to wean yourself off or did you go cold turkey as soon as you knew that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because... Because you have to sort of like... Your equilibrium has to come back.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Wow. And so was it immediately hard or was it hard right away? First day, you're like, oh my God, where's my speed?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It seems to be a problem. Anybody's doing a little crack every now and then.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So you were being like a chemist. You were going and mixing oils.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
My friend Adam Curry uses a robot. He's got that robot lunchbox type thing. And he says it's better. Because he says, first of all, you know what's in there. Because if you're buying them, they're making them in Vietnam in some sweatshop somewhere. Have you ever seen those factories where they test them all? Some guy sucks on every one of them. This one poor guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
This dude is just sucking on these things. I mean, I don't know where they make them. He's an Asian fellow, but he just keeps hitting them. He just has to check every one of them, make sure they blow smoke. She's grabbing them off the assembly line. Oh, yeah. Putting them in these boxes. Yeah. So he's just... Mainlining nicotine all day long and whatever those oils are.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, is there better oils that those things that like when my friend Adam, you know, Adam Curry is the original podfather. He's the guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, he's the best. But he has those things and he was trying to convince me that those things are OK. And the whole thing. The whole thing about vapes being bad was just like the tobacco companies and a bunch of shenanigans. And I was like, hmm. I'm paraphrasing. I'm not giving you the full story.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But his argument was that those robot lunchbox type vapes, those big fat boys, at least you know what's in there. Like, you know where you're getting your oils. Like, you can get different quality and caliber of nicotine oils.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So you wrote a book about, well, I think the title is I Used to Like You But. Until.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Why did you want to do that? What was the motivation behind that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, he's trying to shame you. He's trying to blame you for this insurrection attempt, what he perceives to be.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But here's what's fucked. It's exactly what we were talking about with comments. Who's that guy? That's a guy who's a failure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Who you started out open mics and he remembers and now you're successful and he's not. And he's like, yeah, you caused the fucking collapse of democracy with your jokes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
they're probably feds yeah okay you don't even know like hey lady i just remember being like totally yeah you gotta you gotta ask her questions like what have you read what have you read that brought to those conclusions i don't think she knew what she'd read but she was told me she's speaking very matter-of-factly like oh yeah people love to do that yeah but well also probably they're giving her potassium supplements probably because her fucking brain is shutting down
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, and probably not doing so well health-wise. They're giving her potassium supplements. That's what they're trying to say. Hey, your electrolyte balance is off. Nothing's firing correctly. You got real problems. She's probably cramping up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But if you can talk to someone really dumb, who's really into something politically, you can get kind of insight.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Hospital workers like everybody else. Some of them are really good and some suck. And also, it's just it's weird to be alone like that. Like, there's no reason why you should have had to have been alone.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If it's OK for someone to sit with you, that should be fine. Why couldn't he stay? Yeah. I mean, I've had family members in the hospital before. You just sit next to him and read a book and they feel comfortable. Someone that they love is there. Yeah. Makes them feel better.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You should have somebody with you. Two hours is nuts. Why?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
My daughter had a pretty loud cold or cough and they brought it to the hospital. I was telling my wife, she's probably got the vid. It's going around. She goes, no, she's got a nasal infection. And I said, did they test for COVID? She's like, no.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I'm like, they didn't even test? If this was two years ago, they would 100% immediately test you for COVID. But yet they're still talking about COVID. And they don't even test kids for it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
supposed to be some real benefits to nutritional supplementation or your your baby is being born inside of you like like or being created inside of you like maybe possibly go into a place to get your blood work drawn yeah finding like what nutrients you're deficient in and it could really help you i should i should do stuff like that we're gonna help you
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I mean, it's all just simple, basic, natural stuff like vitamin C and vitamin D and vitamin K2 and all that stuff, but your body really extra needs that. You're making a little human.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
My friends have quit cigarettes. That's the first thing they say. They get fat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They immediately start gaining weight because nicotine is really essentially kind of a speed, too. It's a little bit of a stimulant. I was so much. And an appetite suppressant.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Is that a lot, Jamie? That's the one you're saying was a lot? The other day it was 20, so that's like... Someone was talking about 20? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's Henry Rollins' story, too. Yeah. They put him on Ritalin when he was five years old as well. And he said, like, he'd be just fucking all day at school, just gritting his teeth.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, I know a lot of people that really love it and they're all kind of out of control. They're just a little bit off the rails.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah. Yeah, that's a real problem. And it's so funny. Like if you say I'm independent, I just want small government. Immediately people start thinking prepper, KKK, stockpiling guns, living in the woods. I'm independent. I want small government is like you might be a dangerous person.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's not a good feeling It's just nuts how many doctors prescribe that stuff Mm-hmm, and and how many people are on it? What was it 39 million? Is that what it was prescriptions last year? Oh Something kooky like that. It's probably more than that because I think that was actually 2021 now that I think about it. So it's probably way more than that now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, most doctors are not going to recommend nicotine ever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
NeuroGum is... I don't have anything to do with this company, by the way. Just something I like. NeuroGum is gum that has theanine in it and caffeine, and it enhances brain function.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And then there's some other stuff that you can get. We sell something at Onnit called AlphaBrain, and there's AlphaBrain, then AlphaBrain Black Label, which is like the more potent version. That stuff's very legit. Really helps memory, really helps. We did... Back in the day when we first put it out, a lot of people were like, this is fucking snake oil. So, well, okay, let's find out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because there's studies, but there's no real, like, let's find out, let's get something definitive. So we did two double-blind placebo-controlled studies at the Boston Center for Memory, where they found increase in... Increase in verbal memory, so your ability to recall words. Increase in reaction time. Increase in alpha flow state.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So there was a bunch of recognizable benefits at a dose that was lower than what I was taking. It was like half what I was taking. I think the dose was two pills, and I'd do four. A lot of times when I'm getting crazy, I'll do six.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Like if I have a UFC, UFCs require six pills. Yeah. It's six hours. I'm sitting down there for six hours. I bring snacks and I drink monsters and I have alpha brain.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But you should try some other stuff that doesn't like there's some other stuff that will give you benefits but doesn't give you that weird feeling. You know, that accelerated feeling.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I have a friend whose daughter was on ADHD medication. And she was getting off of it. And he started giving her AlphaBrain.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You seem totally fine, coherent. You're talking very quickly. You're not exhausted, right? No, I'm not exhausted. This is you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You seem like a wonderful person off of it. I don't think you need it. I think everybody would like to be a little bit more productive, especially if you're a creative type, if you're a writer, if you're doing things. You'd like to be a little bit more productive. But there's no biological free lunch. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And there's probably going to be some sort of long-term damage to a lifetime of stimulating your system. I know a lot of people that did a lot of coke in the 1970s, and they're all fucked up. A lot of them died with neurological conditions.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I just wonder, it's a difference between doing coke five nights a week for a few hours a night versus a pill that you're taking every fucking day that jacks your system up. Who knows if you're going to blow a fuse over time? Like, who knows?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Now, what about have you ever tried new vigil or pro vigil?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
The problem with the government solving problems and the government is not financially invested in a solution. No. They just want to have more jobs and they want to keep more bureaucracy and more people working on a problem, hence the California homeless problem. Imagine if that was farmed off to the private sector.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
How crazy is it that that's all the requirement they have to give you a drug? They're like, she looks pretty sleepy right now. You look pretty sleepy. You must have narcolepsy. Not you're tired. Not are you staying up all night. Do you have a lot going on at your house? Are you not getting any sleep? Now you do. No, you have narcolepsy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They didn't ask because they don't give a fuck. They just want to give you a pill. They want to give you a pill.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
The more they prescribe, the more money they make. Let's go. And they're like, you need Provigil. You're like, okay.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
ProVigil doesn't seem like a stimulant. Did it seem like it for you?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And then there's NuVigil. NuVigil's another version of it. I don't know what the difference is, but they both seem to work the same way. I used to take it if I had to drive. Like if I was in San Diego and I did a gig and I'm like, it's 11 o'clock, show's over, I could be home in my bed at 2 in the morning.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Latest, you know? It's not really a three-hour drive unless there's traffic.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But you know how it is if you're driving in the road and it's late at night. I don't drive. Okay.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
When I would be on the road and I was... Is it because of narcolepsy?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's not that big a deal. You're in a car for 18 hours. Just get zen about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Imagine if the only way to make money in the homeless problem is actually creating a solution for it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Feral cats are weird. They never really get unferal. No, they don't. Feral dogs can eventually become dogs again. I've seen it happen. They usually have like a fear of people, but they eventually calm down. Like people that have gotten like stray dogs. I had a stray dog off the street.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And I had a stray cat. And that stray cat, I was the only one that could pick that motherfucker up. I was the only one who could pet him. Everybody else, he would come near him. He'd hiss at you and take a swing at you and run away.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They're like your baby forever. Well, I went through everything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
My life has changed. Yeah, and this cat's been with you the whole ride.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Nobody's like, he's here, you know? Have you seen that chimp crazy thing on Netflix yet?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Okay, it's about that lady that kept a chimp and the chimp ripped apart a friend. You know that story? No. I've heard it's by the same people that did Tiger King, right? I've heard it's fucking insane. They say it's way better than Tiger King. They say it's nuts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I love Jane Goodall. Jane Goodall's odd, though. Oh, of course.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
This lady, like it's apparently, we can't really, can we play the trailer? We'll get in trouble. Okay. So that is the chimp that... Well, the thing about chimps is when they're little, you can kind of tell them what to do because they're little. They're babies. They listen to you. But then when they get to be a certain age, that's a grown adult alpha primate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They're not listening to you. They'll rip your fucking nose off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They don't care. And they also have like this very strong sense of fairness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
there's one this guy that had a pet chimp they had for many many years then he got older and it was too difficult to control and so they brought it to a chimp sanctuary and so he goes to visit the chimp on the day of the chimp's birthday and brought him a cake like they could still visit the chimp okay they bring him a cake but the other chimps are jealous that they don't get a cake and someone had left the door open so the chimps come out attack this guy rip him to pieces
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Rip his hands off. Rip his dick off. Rip his face off. They ripped his dick off? They go for everything that makes you a person. They tear your fingers off. They tear your eyeballs out. They're not even trying to kill you. They're trying to maim you. Yeah. They do some vicious, evil, horrible shit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And they do it because they are mad at you. It's a different thing than, like, a wolf. Yeah. A wolf's not necessarily mad at you. It wants to eat you. Right. A chimpanzee wants to tear you apart because it's mad at you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, so you're dealing with, like, a low-level intelligence and jealousy, pettiness, like, sense of fairness, and then all this, like, alpha primate shit that comes with chimpanzees in general, and then you got them captive because... So they're basically prisoners. So they're in this cage. They have nothing fun all day. And someone shows up with a keg like, where's my fucking keg?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Where's my fucking keg? And then they just get out and tear this guy apart.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah. So I lived in New York once. I drove. I had to do an audition. I drove to I lived in New Rochelle. So I lived like right outside the Bronx and I drove to the city and home from the city. I blew out one tire driving to the city at a pull over the side of the road. Change this fucking tire. Dangerous risking my life on the way back. I blew out another tire. Yeah, geez.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah brought in something that you didn't produce that was about chimpanzee, but I like shared it and it was like a disturbing I don't remember what it exactly was they gonna learn I
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah. It's a real true thing. Don't you teach about the Holocaust? Like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Don't you teach about Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima? Yeah. Terrible things have happened. Yeah, that's true. Are you going to not teach about them because they're disturbing? I agree. I agree. That's so ridiculous.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, but isn't it interesting that you, now becoming a successful person and doing stand-up, you would see someone like that and go, oh, you're just in the wrong job. Like someone's trying to put you at a job at an office somewhere, and that's really not for you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And there's a lot of people out there that say I could never be a standup comedian.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yes, and it's the classic story. That's the marvelous Mrs. Maisel story. That's the Lenny Bruce story. It's the classic story. People going on stage and going, what the fuck is wrong with my life? And you're like, hey, I think I'm onto something.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But you can do that. Some people just don't have that same psychological makeup, which is my original point is that there's a lot of people out there that shouldn't be doing regular jobs and just giving them Ritalin. I don't think it's the answer. Like if you're saying that you can go outside, you can play with bugs and lizards and shit and you're fascinated.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's what normal people are supposed to be doing. It's so abnormal to be sitting in a room with artificial light at a desk where you're not supposed to move talking about shit that's not interesting to you. That's normal for a kid to rebel against something like that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's just the problem is the environment of schools is terrible for kids. Kids have a lot of fucking issues.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But listen, I'm hearing you talk right now and you're not on stimulants. You're obviously very smart. So why are you saying that you couldn't have gotten a 4.0 unless you're on stimulants? I don't believe it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because you've always been on them. But you're not on them. But you're not on them right now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But you're very sharp and you're very fast. You don't seem like you're slowed down at all.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Okay, but maybe that's just in your head. Maybe. And maybe you would have gotten a 4.0 either way because you're fucking smart. And maybe all that does is give you speed and you're like, you keep going. Maybe you would have been more introspective if you weren't on them. Maybe you would look at things slightly differently.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Maybe you'd have a more balanced and nuanced take if you weren't on fucking diesel fuel. In elementary school? With a fire burning inside your head.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So when you went in, you were exhausted at first and then you were on speed as well.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
No, but when you found out that you were pregnant, it was because you weren't feeling well, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. While you were on speed. Yeah, I was still tired.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I think you're just a fast-paced person. And I'm not necessarily sure. I'm not a psychiatrist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I'm sure you love your dog just as much, and you want to do your best to help them live longer, healthier, happier lives. And a healthy life for your dog starts with healthy food, just like it does for us. There's a reason having a balanced diet is so important. So how do you know if your dog's food is as healthy and as safe as it can be?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I know you're going to get right back on. As soon as you can.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's what most people do. That's normal. Not to this extent. I bet it is. It's normal to be a little scatterbrained. I'm more than a little scatterbrained. I know, but you're fine. So like if I was like, if I was an ethical doctor.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
All right, cool. If I was in, that's actually poor for me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If I was an ethical doctor and you came into my office and there was no financial incentive for me to prescribe medication to you, I'd say, you're fine. What's wrong with you, Kat? Do you know how many people would like kill or take a medication to be in the state of mind that you're at all the time? Like the way you can talk and how coherent you are and how articulate you are and fast paced.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Your thinking is very quick. You don't need anything. This is all in your head, but you can't write bullshit. That's not true. It's just different because you're not high. You're not speeded up fucking smashing keys. You still can write. You don't need a medication because writing is complicated. I'm not saying you shouldn't take it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I'm not saying you shouldn't have the ability to as long as you're not fucking up your baby after all that breastfeeding stuff's done. But the point is, I think this whole I need it stuff is nonsense.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, wouldn't it be nice to be able to go on a vacation and not have to take speed?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I get how it's been good for you. It's been good to you. You've enjoyed, you've reaped its benefits. But I don't think you need it. I mean, for you to be here right now, sober, in the state you're at, you're as sharp as most people that I talk to. You're on the ball.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, maybe this baby will be an awesome reset for that. Maybe at the end of the nine months. you'll have a completely different perspective. You've been off of it so long. You realize like, wow, it's actually better.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's what you say next to your two-fisted names. I know. You had the big lunchboxes. Strawberry. Lemonade.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So what is in the oil? What is the best? I should probably call Adam and ask him. But what is the best oil for vapes that's not as bad for you?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
How would we Google this? I don't remember it. How would we Google this? Is there a difference in the harm that certain vape chemicals can do? And is there a healthy version of that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There was two different people had gotten some really tainted THC vapes and died.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Who's the chemist? What bathtub does this get fucking cooked up in?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
At least if you're getting the actual cannabis plant, you know what it is. Right. It's strong or it's not strong. You figure that out, you're going to be fine. You're...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You don't want to be the person that winds up in the news.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
No, you don't want to be the person that winds up in the news because your legs stop working because you smoked some fucking gas station vape pen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Is there any benefit to the kind of oils that they use in the homemade robot type vapes?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Googling it just brings up a bunch of websites that are trying to sell me stuff. But what I gather from those is that they're all saying you want something that doesn't have nicotine in it, which is a little strange.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Then you want to add pharmaceutical grade nicotine. So that might be where the problems come in. and cheap nicotine additives or something like that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But what is that word? Dicetyl? Dicetyl-free? I saw that a few places. Dicetyl? I don't know. Dicetyl. Am I saying it right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Okay. Go back up again. Go back up again. It says the safest e-juice ratio is one that has less propylene glycol. If your vaporizer allows it, try to use 100% vegetable glycerin e-juice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right, but when they're saying vegetable oil, are we talking about what kind of vegetables? Yeah. What's in that? Is it seed oils?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, everything says PG or VG mix, and that's what that means is the vegetable glycerin.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right, but what is that vegetable glycerin made out of? Is that made out of canola oil? What is it made out of?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because I know someone was making it with MCT oil and they were trying to tell me this is the safe version. Some dude with a robot.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Here it says VG is generally recognized as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. But hold on a second. As VG is vegetable-based, there's a much lower toxicity than PG, so that's propylene glycol, or nicotine. So it's safe to use in e-liquids for vaping. Of course, though, like many things, there's a potential for allergic reaction. But what's it made out of? Vegetable glycerin.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
What is vegetable glycerin made out of? Google that. I just want to know what they're using. Like, what plants? What vegetables? Clear otosweetening liquid made from the vegetable oils such as palm, soy, or coconut. Okay, palm, terrible for you. Soy, terrible for you. Coconut, not bad. Coconut's good for you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So it's like, depending upon what kind of oil you get, you're spraying the inside of your lungs with some shit that's generally not good for consumption. Like, palm oil's supposed to be bad for consumption. Canola oil's bad for consumption. It causes inflammation. Vegetable glycerin is made by heating triglyceride-rich vegetable fats under pressure or with a strong alkali such as lye.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, lye is nasty. It's like how people would straighten their hair out, too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That stuff was on yesterday, the castor. Uh-huh. Was it beaver stacks or something?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Oh, my God. I was trying to figure out which cigarette to use it, but... Chris Harris was telling us that he drank this alcohol that they didn't tell him what was in it. It was a shot, and inside the shot was an essence of beaver. Okay. And it turns out it's a secretion from the beaver's anal gland.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And it was in his mouth for 10 days. He couldn't get the taste of it out of his mouth.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
He was on that show Top Gear. Okay. And, you know, he's traveling in some other country. Look, this is one of the local things, and he drank this, and... It stayed in his mouth for 10 days.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But we saw it with the vodka, right? They had beaver caster vodka. So what is MCT oil in vapes? Google MCT oil in vapes. See if that's legit. Because this guy was trying to, which is essentially like coconut oils and stuff like that. Is it MCT medium? Yes. Yes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So this thing says it's trying to find any heating triglyceride-rich vegetable fats.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right. But see if someone does it, if they're trying to promote it as a healthy alternative to normal vape oils. MCT oil in... in vapes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
The very first thing that came up was from Weed Maps. It says, occasionally vaping MCTO may or may not be harmful to the lungs. That's so helpful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
aerosolized and inhaled MCT oil can be harmful to respiratory health Michigan's banning them Michigan's banning them but okay when you hear Michigan's banning them I go okay but did another industry tell Michigan that they're bad so they can sell their fucking bullshit oil vapes like there's so much fuckery going on with all this stuff especially these unregulated things yeah There it goes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
When heated and inhaled, oils can cause lipid pneumonia, a serious lung condition. Yeah, I knew a family in California, and their kid got pneumonia. He was vaping every day, and he wound up dying.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
He was 19 years old. Oh, shit. Yeah, apparently he was just vaping constantly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Six years ago. The current articles show that MCT oil combined with CBD has increased health benefits.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's so hard to know what's true and what's not true. It's just so much fuckery.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, there's just too many doctors that have a financial interest in following whatever the company line is. And with certain things, they're not allowed to prescribe medications because those medications aren't as profitable as the ones that they're promoted to prescribe.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I wanted to bring this up since we don't know. I was going to bring it up earlier while you were talking about it. This says that nicotine replacement therapy could be okay during pregnancy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's such a dude thing to say because dudes can have kids. Jamie's like, well, that's what he says. It's fine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Oh, my friend Duncan, here's a good story. My friend Duncan has diabetes. He has the kind of get it from diet. He's a thin guy and I found out he was feeling like shit, found out he has diabetes. Like, wow, this is fucking crazy. So cut sugar out of his life. All of a sudden diabetes goes away. Feels incredible. It was like, I can't believe how much energy I had.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Oh my God, I was poisoning myself all day. And then, you know, he has this like glucose monitor thing. And the glucose monitor thing is kind of his glucose is too high. And he's trying to figure out what it is. It's vaping because all those flavored vapes have sugar in them. So every time he's taken a vape off this gas station bullshit. Diabetes from vaping. He's probably got diabetes from vaping.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's crazy. Sugar as well, but he's vaping all day. So he's pumping the sugar into his system, and so he realized after he cut all the sugar out that his sugar levels would go crazy, and it was because of vaping. So as soon as he stopped that, it went all normalized.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Have you seen the blizzard? When that guy takes the blizzard from Dunkin' Donuts, and he puts it next to a clear cup to show you how much sugar. No, it's that drink, that frozen coffee drink. Yeah. And that frozen coffee drink has so much sugar, and he puts the clear cup next to it so you can see how much sugar. It's 183 grams of sugar. Is that right? There's a lot.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's like a frozen pumpkin swirl thing. It has videos on the screen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Okay, so this is it. It says Dunkin' Donuts. It doesn't say what the thing is, but it's some kind of a sugary coffee type beverage. That's so gross. Sorry, Derek Green, for tainting the name of your wonderful blizzards.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That guy's showing you all the sugar that's in that thing. That's so insane to take that much sugar in a drink.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Look at that stack of sugar cubes. That is so bananas. That's 181. So it's 34 teaspoons or 51.5 cubes of sugar. Holy Jesus. It's a giant drink though too, yeah. Yeah, but it's also got ice in it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If you get rid of all that ice, how much of it is all sugar? It's like you're just drinking sugar and ice. And you see people walking around with those.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, people get used to the sugar. And then the sugar doesn't make them crash as much.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because I don't do that. But if I do, like, if I have, like, a milkshake, I'll be like, oh.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But some people eat it all day long and they just their body just gets accustomed to it. Just like alcohol.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It is crazy. I hear that and I'm like, that sounds like me. I don't know what it means because I bet you can focus on things that you enjoy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And it's everywhere. It's in everything. It's in so many different foods that it doesn't need to be in. But it makes more addictive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You should be eating really healthy, essential fatty acids, eating lots of salmon and things along those lines. But, yeah, nobody cares about that. Nobody talks to you about sugar.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If I was your husband, I'd be sneaking food. I'd be giving that cat ice cream.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If you didn't give it to them, what would happen? Every now and then he'd get a blister?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Writing is hard for everybody. That's why no one's a writer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Maybe it wouldn't suck. Maybe it wouldn't suck if you had him as a kid.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I guarantee that's there's a switch that goes in those feral cats that never really shuts off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's weird. It's a weird switch because like it exists in certain animals. Like there's when they go feral, they just never come back. There's just a giant difference between like domesticated, certain domesticated animals and feral. Cats are the best example because feral cats are so different. Domesticated cats are wonderful. Like, hey, little buddy. They sit in your lap.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They touch your legs and go up like this, up and down with their little claws.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Like, he'll decide something pisses him off. Like I said, I had a feral cat. He used to do that, too. But the difference between that and an actual cat in the wild is profound. They know no one's looking out for them, and that switch has already gone off. They're not being taken care of. But if you took care of them from the time he was a baby, it'd be interesting. Maybe he'd be a good cat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Would you be willing to do that? To clone him? Or would you think some Pet Sematary shit would go down?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's who I dedicated it to. Joan Rivers has my favorite conspiracy theory, the real kooks.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
believe that they took out Joan Rivers when she said Michelle Obama was a man yes that conspiracy people are like look at this video look at this video she says this and then what happens it's so funny those those fucking the really loony conspiracy people oh they're hilarious they're so there's so much entertainment in that that's one of my favorite ones
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Oh, that's... Joan Rivers... She was 80 years old and she was getting plastic surgery.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
For, like, the 80th time. Like, that shit is so bad for you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, I think in the future you won't have to do that. I think they'll have an ability to regenerate skin tissue and make your skin much healthier. For sure, they're already doing these things where they microneedle your face and cover your face with exosomes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That has a significant impact. Red light therapy has a significant impact in your skin elasticity and your collagen. But I think in the future they're going to be able to regenerate tissue. And I think they're pretty close to that. I don't think you're going to need to get your fucking lizard face up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You know what creeps me out though? When women get a mouth that's too big.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They get Joker face because their fucking face is being pulled sideways. So they have a smile and they always show some gum.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, it's for sure body dysmorphia. It's the same as people who have anorexia, the same as people who are bodybuilders who think they're tiny. People have a propensity to develop, at least certain people do, this kind of disease where you don't see yourself as other people see you. Right. And it can get real weird if you start doing stuff to your face. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Like we played a video compilation of these two brothers. I don't know what they do. They're famous for some reason, but super handsome when they're young. Like handsome, good looking, like model. Looked like model. And as they got older, they started shooting shit in their face. And then they became like Pinwheel from Saw.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
The whole thing is like super bizarre. And if you see the madness take place like over the years, like here – So this is what they look like now. But let me show you what they used to look like when they were young. Why do they?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They're just good looking guys. See if you can find a video of the guy over the years, because the video over the years is wild because you get to see his face moving, you know, and you see him and you go, oh, it's like a good looking guy, like good looking, normal guy. Yeah. So this is them when they're already fucked up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But this is them when they're younger. Go back to that real quick. Look at that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Great looking guy. And now look at them. They look insane. Yeah. Instead of just looking like an old, like Kevin Costner, just an older, handsome man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's a dangerous road. And when actresses do it, it fucks up their career.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, it does for some because they go away because they don't look like the same person anymore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So she got her nose fixed. This is like her older, but when she was younger, she had this very prominent nose and then she got it fixed and like she was unrecognizable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, but the problem is when everybody knows you as the person who looks like that, like Barbra Streisand. If Barbra Streisand got a nose job, it would be crazy. What are you doing? You're not Barbra Streisand anymore. We love the old you. That's what we like. We don't want you doing that. That's nuts. You're changing the shape of your nose, and it's really obvious.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So let me get this straight. So you're young. You're real energetic. You don't want to sit still in class. But are you interested in some things? Like, do you focus on some things in your life?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's crazy when dudes do it. Like politician dudes. And all of a sudden they got that frozen forehead.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
All of a sudden he's got the eyebrows are up and his forehead's not moving.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, I don't know. Why are you scared of a brow movement when you're a man?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And people cheer it on. People are like, yeah, bro. It's hilarious.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, it's like when you see Rupert Murdoch with whatever his latest wife is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There's a lot of those old rich guys, though, that have like... Bomber wise. Of course. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy to watch.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
crazy I know it's like in general especially like with old rich guys like none of them are married by their age no I told him like babe I'm like you're in finance your wife's not even born yet
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Oh, that's hilarious. Are you more or less stable off the amphetamines?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I mean, certainly there's something going on inside your body that's significant. And then on top of that, you're off speed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's why it'd be interesting for you to wait a little while.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You probably should. You might like yourself more after nine months.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because right now you're still in the hell of it. It is. How many months has it been since you stopped?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So this is like a new thing. You know, your body's probably still...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Are you worried about that? Like becoming exhausted and that that would have a detrimental effect?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, that's why I don't know what this is, because every time someone talks about ADHD and people want to insist that it's an actual pathology, that's an actual issue. And I'm always like, boy, I don't know, because I think it's a superpower. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's crazy that you're going to do it all the way up until nine months. Yeah. Why not just stop doing it at six?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
What if you give birth prematurely when you're on the road?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's funny that people would instantly want to label you as a right wing person because you're on Fox. And also, it's funny that just people do that anymore. Whatever they did when they first created Fox, because Fox was essentially the first real opinion based news source that was very right wing that was on television. And then that gave the rise to or at least gave.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
some of the motivation to places like CNN to develop these editorial based shows and opinion based perspectives that really annoyed and polarized so many people. And it used to be that there were certain stations that would have objective news and you would get objective news and you would have right wing people given their perspective and left wing people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Look, Gore Vidal and William F. Buckley debated live on television multiple times in a row. And it was like one of the biggest events on TV at the time. Like people were allowed to have differing opinions and they'd be on a show and we would let them talk things through. Yeah. And even then, I'm sure it was polarized. It's always going to be. People are always going to be tribal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But today it's so much more ridiculous than at any time I could ever remember in my life.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Maybe you just have a point and just listen to what the point is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because they're really just committed to their tribe. Exactly. It's these blue no matter who people or red till dead people. And you can trick them. This is one of the reasons why, like, if I was the grand manipulator of the world, if I really believe there's one cabal of super geniuses that's running everything, I would try to see if I could do that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I would say let's see if we can get the left to support censorship, pro-war, invasive politics, like entering into people's homes and classrooms and siphoning up their information in order to protect trans kids in fucking Detroit or whatever it is. Come up with some fucking reason and make everybody get a part of a centralized digital currency because that's better for everybody.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Put everybody on an app so we know if you're vaccinated. That's the left.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If I wanted to show that people are so easily manipulated that there is no left, there is no right, it's mostly nonsense. It's mostly people just subscribing to a predetermined pattern of beliefs and behaviors that they think is good and makes them a part of the tribe.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And it goes so far to the left and so far to the right that... But what used to be crazy is now normalized, like hormone blockers for kids, like being able to take away parents' rights because the child wants to transition and they want to be able to do it without the parents say so.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, Farmer's Dog gives you that peace of mind by making fresh, real food developed by board-certified nutritionists to provide all the nutrients your dog needs. And their food is human-grade, which means it's made to the same quality and safety standards as human food. Very few pet foods are made to this strict standard. And let's be clear, human-grade food doesn't mean the food is fancy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But there's never been a time in history where we would have accepted that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And it's not just creepy communist shit, but it's prescribed. It's like this is what you're supposed to believe in if you want to be a part of the progressive left.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You know, it's definitely be allowed to be a drag queen. But I don't know if you should have drag queen story hour for five year olds when there's no parents around.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
The results in this country, the academic results are terrible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Getting rid of a department or disbanding a department doesn't mean you don't fund that thing anymore. But it probably would be better if there was something more competitive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because if you just give it, just like we were talking about the homeless problem in California, if you just give it to an organization, institution, it's a government-funded institution, has no obligation to be profitable, has no obligation to be effective. And you just say, we are spending a lot of money on the homeless problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And what you've really done is just employ a bunch of people and they've done very little.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You can apply that to basically infrastructure, education, everything. It's just the same kind of thing. It's like, I'm not this...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
person says the free market will figure out everything but in a lot of cases you'd be better off with some competition so you'd force people to be more effective you'd force results you would have to you would force people to be accountable for whatever decisions they've made and what the results of those decisions are there's no accountability right there's no accountability and that's a real problem in this country and that used to be something that the left feared
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
The left used to fear corporate interference and big business and big government. They used to fear that. They used to fear all that stuff. And now they're all in on it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, I know people that do... I've never done amphetamines. I've never done Adderall. I've never done Coke. I'm scared of them. But a buddy of mine who had done Adderall and then gone on stage said it was terrible. He was never smiling. He was all serious when he was up there. He said it was awful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, Trump said he wants to put people in jail for a year.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, I think they did, too. That's why they shuffled Biden out and put Kamala in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And they're like, let's just gaslight these motherfuckers into a coma and push this through.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If they had a full year. of Kamala versus Trump, like a full year of her running and doing interviews. And talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'd have a much more balanced understanding of who she is and how this is going to look and what it's going to be like if she becomes president.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Because right now people are just riding on gas. Yeah. They're fucking riding on gas.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
What do you think would be the shittiest, like not in terms of for the country, but in terms of people's reaction? Do you think more violence will take place if Trump gets in office or more violence will take place if Kamala gets in office? Because I anticipate there's going to be some craziness after the election. Of course.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Once someone decides, whoever someone is, whoever's president, whenever it gets decided, there's going to be some madness. Yeah. You got to be some real madness. And I get scared of that kind of stuff, too, because I know that a lot of times when people do that, they think they're making a point.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But boy, if you're against government control, those kind of like real angry riots and protests are an amazing opportunity for them to clamp down on your rights.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, it probably will. I mean especially if you believe the conspiracy theories that some of that stuff is funded. Like some of that stuff is organized. Some protests and riots, they seem to be organized, right? And I'm not going to be a conspiracy theorist, but there is a thing called an agent provocateur. It's always existed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And they send people in to disrupt protests and turn them violent and make things chaotic. That's always been the case, especially if they want to push a very specific agenda that the people are fed up and they're angry. Remember when the George Floyd riots were going on and they'd find pallets of bricks just laying around?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, that was crazy because I- Some people had reasons for certain bricks being in places.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But there was a few of them where people just said that they just got dropped off there. And that's exactly where everything popped off. Like, why are there pallets of bricks? There's never just pallets of bricks laying around.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But if you were going to organize a riot- Wouldn't you just leave some bricks?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So what makes you think that you're better on stage off of it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If I was like, look, this is what we're going to do. We're organizing. We're spending all this money to get these college kids to invest in this. Then we're going to bring in Antifa and they're going to go crazy and we're handing out masks and then we're going to leave bricks around.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, this is the ultimate goal of – I mean, again, I'm not saying this is happening, but this would be the ultimate goal of a communist dictatorship. You cause chaos. You step in to stop the chaos. You install new rules to make sure that there's no more chaos anymore. You protect – you cause a problem. Yeah. You bring up a solution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That solution allows you to gain more control and you just keep doing it. You keep doing it until you have ultimate control over the people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
What did Kamala Harris say recently about Elon Musk and Twitter having to follow the same rules as Facebook?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It was something... It was something about how Elon's going to have to follow the same rules as Facebook.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
First of all, what rules? Yeah, yeah. And also, didn't Mark Zuckerberg just come out with a statement saying that he regretted giving in to the government's request to take down COVID-19 information? Yeah. And... Yeah, and then the Hunter Biden laptop story. He just came out with a big statement. Because for a lot of people, they were really furious about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Claim, a video clip portrays Harris saying that she will shut down X. I don't think she said she would shut it down. If she wins 2024, then Musk has lost his privileges. The fact that's false. Harris was referring to Trump long before Musk and Twitter rebranded it as X. So is that what she was saying from that video?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So was the video her saying that why should Twitter be allowed to have Trump on if Facebook can't have him on? Is that what it is?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
When I'm looking for the video, all I'm seeing is within the last 24 hours, posts say a claim is false.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right, but that is not what we were talking about, though. We were talking about something slightly different. Let me see if I can find it for you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that she said she would shut it down. What I'm saying is that she was saying that why should Twitter not have to follow the same rules that are being followed by Facebook?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right, what I typed in was Kamala Harris Twitter rules, so that's the videos that were popping up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Here, I'm sending it to you right now, Jamie. This is what I'm looking for. Okay, so I need to know what she's referring to here, but listen to this statement. Yeah, I think this is from that. Go ahead and play it. Let's see what it says. So she's probably talking about Trump being on Twitter. Is that what it is?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Okay, right away. There's no way to misconstrue that. What does that mean? Oversight and regulation for free speech is ridiculous. Just that alone, there's no way to misconstrue that. What she was saying is what I was thinking she was saying. She was saying she wants government oversight and regulation for social media.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's also saying that the very thing that Mark Zuckerberg regrets should be happening. Like she's essentially saying why should they have different rules for Facebook than they do for Twitter? Like what rules?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
We don't have rules. We have First Amendment rights of free speech.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Trump said something pretty scary for him. He said that if he finds out that he interfered with the election, he's going to be in jail for the rest of his life. That's pretty scary. That's pretty fucking scary. Because it's very likely that he might wind up being the president. And if he winds up being the president, they start investigating this stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If I was Mark Zuckerberg, I'd be pretty fucking freaked out by that statement. Because... It is election interference. For sure, whoever was running Twitter who gave in to the FBI's request to take down the Hunter Biden laptop story, they definitely interfered with the way people voted. Because if people found out that that laptop was legitimate and all that stuff was true...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So there's a certain percentage. I don't know what the number is, but there's a certain percentage of people that were maybe on the fence and that could have influenced their vote one way or another. And it could have given Trump fuel because he could have been talking about it. See, I told you that this was real and they've been lying. And it would also prove that Biden lied during the debates.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right. Is your first one? It's my first one. Yeah. So there's lots going on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, and not only that, it's going to change and get way more complex.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There's nothing you can do about that. But with all this stuff, this talk, whatever she was saying right there is not what you want to hear from somebody. No. You don't want to hear they're going to censor social media.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They were talking specifically about Senator Warren talking about banning President Trump's account. And that was her response to it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, but she was also talking about oversight. She talked about oversight very specifically and clearly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah. And what's the rule that she's talking about? The same rule should apply, which is there has to be a responsibility that is placed on these social media sites to understand their power. They are directly speaking to millions and millions of people without any level of oversight or regulation, and that has to stop. That's all you need to hear.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Like that right there is not something you want to hear from someone who respects the First Amendment. That's not how it's supposed to be. Also, who's they?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Not only that, if you're talking about oversight and regulation, are you talking about the exact same people that were trying to get Twitter and successfully did get Twitter to take down the Hunter Biden laptop? top story and make it impossible to share that video saying that it was a misinformation when it was not.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And if you don't do anything to correct and to hold people responsible that pushed out that misinformation and no one's punished for it and there's no retribution, there's no repercussions at all. What are you saying then? What are you saying?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's okay if your side says things that aren't true and you can regulate in a way that's not based on fact or reality, but based on a result that you want to take place and that's fine. So we don't have freedom of speech. No, of course not. Then you're talking nonsense. This is talking crazy talk. Maybe she believed it was real back then. Maybe she believed it was real. Who knows?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Maybe she believed it was important. But if you got a hold of the Twitter files and you see what Michael Schellenberger and Matt Taibbi and all those people that went through that stuff with a fine tooth comb, the stuff that they found out. Should make you realize, like, no, you can't have the government tell you what you can and can't say.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They don't always tell the truth. They're often influenced. Sometimes you have rogue actors. You probably have one or two people that's responsible for making the call to Facebook or to Twitter. So it's on them. It's on these people with whatever fucking influence that they have and whatever people are talking to them behind the scenes. Absolutely. You can't have that, kids.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But they can't even let you debate it. No. They want you to stop it. As soon as they want you to stop it, the only solution to bad information is good information.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's how it's supposed to be. If they want to stop you from saying something and then it turns out that what you were saying was true, no one should trust them ever again. There should be some sort of a comeuppance and there's no comeuppance. There's no discussion of it. It's never talked about. It's just plowed on through and we move on to the next thing with no acknowledgement at all.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You guys fucking bullshitted us and lied to us for years. For years. And now you want to control social media to stop lies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There's a business behind it. And they use their money and their influence and their control of the media to fuck you. You got bullshitted. You got bullshitted by business. And business, they got together with media and they all had a plan. What are you playing, Jamie? What are you watching over there? More bullshit. It's just there's so much bullshit. But also less bullshit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I'm sure. Right. I mean, your hormones are going crazy. You got a little person growing inside your body.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If you think about overall, because there's way more truth now, right? Like you get way more independent journalism than we've ever had access to in the history of the human race. And you get so much of it. So you get all this media propaganda and mainstream bullshit. But on top of that, you get a lot of Jimmy Doors. You get a lot of independent people that are telling the truth.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You get the Glenn Greenwalds. You get the Matt Taibis. You get all these. people that are just telling you, Michael Schellenberger's telling Barry Wise, telling you what the fuck is actually going on and not attached to some large corporation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There's a difference between being wrong about something and just lying and then getting truth removed. You know, and shaming doctors from Stanford and Harvard and making them out to be kooks. Some of the people that were the top of their field. Yeah. And they had dissenting opinions because they're experts. Yeah. And they're watching this bullshit go down by bureaucrats.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's weird. It only happens every now and again. It only happens to one half of the population.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Are you seeing the difference in New York with the spike of immigrants?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There was some recent statistic about the percentage of violent crimes, robberies and assaults that were created by migrants, illegal immigrants that are in New York right now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
See if you can find it, though. I thought it would be an interesting thing to talk about. At what point in time – I know that Eric Adams, the mayor, is like, stop coming here, go somewhere else. And Kathy Hochul is like, get out of here, go somewhere else. But you still have a sanctuary city, and you still are paying them to stay there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Here it is. Immigrants. It's on New York Post. Migrants flooding New York City's justice system, making up 75% of arrests in Midtown. As pathetic sanctuary city laws handcuff cops. I saw this thing where someone was complaining to these cops about someone doing something illegal and they said we can't arrest them because this is a sanctuary city and they're migrants. It was somewhere in Colorado.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And it's the reason why life is here. And it's treated as if it's not that big of a deal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So you could just do wild things and no one could do anything because you're in a sanctuary city?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
What do you think they're doing? Yeah, that's what they're doing. What do you think they're doing, though? Why do you think they're doing it this way?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, but not wanting to be called xenophobic doesn't mean you have an open border. The idea of just completely abandoning any idea of security concerns.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And it's one of the main focuses in this election is whether or not you can kill the baby. I'm sorry to say it that way. I mean, I'm not in any way trying to take away someone's right to choose. I'm not that guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right. Do you think they're bringing them in here to buy votes, though?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, Nancy Pelosi was on Bill Maher and she was talking about providing a path for them to all be citizens. And that's what she wants to do. Make them documented. Document them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But the thing is, most people look out for the best interest and you can buy them. I mean, if you're the party that let them through and gave them money and allowed them to establish a foothold in America, now their families here and they're doing much better. Well, you would definitely vote Democrat because they're the people that hooked you up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That just seems like a natural human incentive without even having to bribe them to do it. If you're giving them loans and helping them get houses and making it so they can vote and giving them a clear path to citizenship, that seems like if I came here from Guatemala and I didn't know a lot about our political system, the people that hooked me up, I'd stick with them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So you probably are going to get a higher percentage of those people that if you can ever do this and create a path with these people who are illegal immigrants and enter into the country illegally can get a quick path to you would have a lot more voters. A lot. You'd have a lot. I mean, it doesn't seem it sounds crazy to say, but it doesn't seem crazy to try.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If you're trying to figure out a way that you can win and win in the future, like almost every time, wouldn't you like just bring in voters?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But I'm just saying what it actually is, is you're deciding whether or not someone should be able to tell you whether you could terminate the baby that's inside of you that's going to become a person.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Labor. Here's the thing about cheap labor. And this is what Tim Dillon's been saying. He said he's like he thinks they're bringing in cheap, illegal labor. And that's why construction businesses like if you kicked out all the illegal immigrants, he was like a lot of construction businesses would be fucked. They'd be fucked. And he said there's a lot of people that don't want those jobs anymore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And they're sneaking in people to fill those jobs. He thinks that's part of it. And that makes sense. But did you ever see that documentary Wild Wild Country? It's fucking great. It's on Netflix. And it's all about this cult that put together this compound in the Pacific Northwest. And one of the things they did is they brought in homeless people by the buses. They found all these homeless people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You can be a part of our community. And these homeless people get there like, wow, finally I have a place and I belong. These people were all psyched. They belonged to this community. And then they voted. So they took over the whole town by busing in voters. So they brought in these voters. They just grabbed homeless people from everywhere. And they integrated into the community.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They had them vote, but they really didn't. This is like in the 80s or 90s. So they had them vote. What year was that? What year did that take place? It might be the 2000s. Anyway, had them vote. And then once they took over the town, they kicked all the homeless people out. Get the fuck out of here. And the homeless people were like, I thought you loved me. I thought I was a part of the team.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And these people, for once in their life, they had direction. They had meaning. They were part of a community. They're trying to get off the dope. They're feeling better about themselves, chanting and really believing all these things these people are talking about. And they really just used them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They can't. They can't care. There's too many people. I mean, just imagine wanting that job, first of all.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And then imagine the stress of how is Trump doing it at 78 years old? How is he dealing with the stress of doing this? No. And he's doing podcasts and it's like, what the fuck? Fuck, man. He started a podcast with Theo. The podcast with Theo was amazing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
He did one with Lex yesterday. So it's just like, how do you have the energy to keep the fuck that job? I would never. And how can you care as much as you want about, you could try to care, but there's so many things to care about. Yeah. There's so much going on and everything's a fucking fire. Everything's on fire. The economy's on fire.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's it's hard. And if you want to do stand up, God damn it. You kind of have to be in the city. Like, it's so hard to do that unless you're single and free. Like when I lived in New Rochelle, I lived in New Rochelle because I couldn't afford to live in the city at the time. And I was doing a lot of road gigs. I needed a car. I needed a parking spot.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
500 bucks a month or something like that was crazy yeah half of my rent for a spot to put my car i had to have a fucking car so i used to have to drive in the city to go and do spots so do spots in the city i'd have to pay to park i'd always lose money i never made any money if i lived in the city and just hopped around the subway and took cabs i could have made a living doing stand-up in the city but i had to do road gigs in order to just make a living just to be able to do sets in the city
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I mean, I think I could quit it. I quit it during COVID for like eight months, and I was thinking while I was quitting it. I was like, who knows if this is ever going to happen again. I was thinking, I'm okay. I love it. I really love stand-up. It's fun. I love comedians. Stan Hope said it best. He's like, I could quit comedy, but I couldn't quit comedians.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Which is like totally right. It's like the hang is like, it's too, they're too fun to hang with. They're too fun to be silly with. Everyone knows there's no boundaries. Everyone's being hilarious. Everyone, like last night we were in the green room and Brian Simpson came up with this new bit and everybody's like giving it, like he said this thing. It was really fun. I go, dude, that's a bit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
He's like, you think so? I'm like, fuck yeah. And then he hit it with another tagline and then somebody else jumped in. Then he had another tagline. Like he created this bit right in front of him.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I can't wait to go on stage and tell that. I was like, woo! Those kind of moments, those are the most fun moments. And I think only comics are going to appreciate that. No one else is going to understand what even just happened. That guy just has a bit. There's not only just a bit, but it's a root. of what's gonna be a real chunk of material.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Like, he's just started off with this hilarious premise that has a few really good taglines, and then four months from now, that's gonna probably be a closing bit. It's like one of those deals. It's like, I can't stop hanging out with those people. It's too fun.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I don't know what's in there. I don't know. I mean, what if every embryo is a life? And not just a life, but a soul. And a soul waiting to emerge. Like, once you've done the deed... I'm not that guy. I'm not this religious... No, I don't think you are. I'm not this guy. But I'm just... Let's put it out there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right. That probably like eases some of the anxiety. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
you need a nap yeah exactly once you have the baby then you're gonna need a lot of naps yeah baby brain is real in the beginning you you think you're like out of it now when you don't get any sleep and the baby's up and then you gotta like take turns like you you're you're gonna be like sleep deprived for several months yeah at least at least at least i mean i i've always it's crazy because only recently have i accepted that this baby's gonna like live in my apartment
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, you're going to want to get a house. You're going to want to be somewhere safer and quieter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's just, I just, you know, I have friends who raised their whole families in New York City, like kids from baby all the way to grown up. And those kids are different.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Remember when people were using the streets as like racetracks? I was crashing cars because there was no one on the street. So people were going like 150 miles an hour down Broadway.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Also, with all the terrible things that are going on, is that that bad? I mean, they're not doing anything when someone smashes windows and steals clothes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
When de Blasio let those people have those smash and grabs and was telling them to get it out of their system, remember that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
that was the strategy just let the riots burn themselves out and don't arrest anybody like what are you fucking doing well no personal property that's calm that's some communist shit too it was great it was just it didn't make any sense it was all failed leftist philosophies from like the 1960s that nobody really believes it in practice and they're they've never worked you can't just let people fucking smash and grab things you're going to destroy the fabric of society you're going to
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Like, what the fuck is that if that thing can become a person? You put it in your body... Thaws out, whatever. I don't know the process. Yeah, I don't really either.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So many people are going to be indoctrinated into looting and stealing that maybe have never done that before. If you have these mass groups, if you have like these mass groups of people that break into a mall and 200 people, how many of those people have ever done anything like that before? Probably a lot haven't. And now all of a sudden they have and they do it multiple times.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Then it becomes a normalized thing. Yeah. And it realizes, nope, you've created a real fucking problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You got to press a button every time you need something Everything's locked up Bert Kreischer went viral today because I think Breitbart put a video of his because he went through a Rite Aid
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I saw someone commenting on that, though, that Rite Aid's going out of business and that store is like one of the ones that's closing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Where are people going to get their amphetamines? Right, but you know why they're going out of business? Because they got looted. Everything's locked up. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense that they're going out of business so they locked up everything. No.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
No, they locked up everything because people were stealing like crazy because they passed a fucking law where anything under $900 or whatever it was, they weren't allowed to arrest you. So people just run in and throw deodorant and fucking hairspray.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Throw everything in a bag and walk right out the door and no one could do a goddamn thing about it. Video showing deserted Rite Aid's bare shelves after bankruptcy goes viral. Is this Bert? Yeah. Look at it. Bert went viral. Bert's so happy. He's never going to stop doing this now. He's going to go everywhere. I want to go to every Rite Aid there is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
All of a sudden it's a person? Like you're storing people in like a lab somewhere? And do they have memory of being stored? Do we have long-term data about the trauma of being a frozen embryo for 10 years? Do we have any idea whether or not it has any effect on the human being? How long have they been doing this? What's the long-term data on what kind of a person comes out of fraud?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Burt Kreischer, who showcased the empty shelves, incorrectly attributed them to theft. Incorrectly. First of all, it's the reason why they're locked up. Go show the video. So is this show the video? Because you want me to send it to you? You got it. OK, because saying saying that that's that's kooky to say. That's really kooky to say falsely attributing them to theft.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, this is incorrect. This is classic. So I thought these were locks, locked boxes. Okay. Where's wrong? But he's not wrong because the reason why they go out of business is because they've been looted. So, like, they've abandoned several major cities, right? They've moved out, like, a lot of businesses have moved out of San Francisco, a lot of businesses have moved out of L.A.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
for a very specific reason. Because of these looting. Yeah. Like, this is real. Like, what companies have pulled stores because of the after effect of looting? Let's find out. I know they have in Oakland. I think they have in San Francisco. Let's Google drugstores. What drugstores have pulled out of San Francisco? I think it's Walgreens. So what's the difference between Walmart and Walgreens?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Walmart is the big place. But they have drugs there, too, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They said it would close around 900 stores during the next three years. 9% of them... Or wait. It then closed six in San Francisco, including five throughout downtown and one on Van Ness Avenue.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah. Drugstores. Drugstores used to be like the most profitable fucking business you could own. Yeah. And now they're like, we're just getting robbed. Yeah, well, I mean... So Bird's kind of right. He's not right why those shelves are empty at that moment because they're going out of business. But that's why they're going out of business. Well, those would be locked up. Old Navy to Nordstrom.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You can steal it. It's almost like they want society to collapse. Like allowing stuff like that and not making corrective measures to make these retailers feel comfortable so they stay in your community without doing anything to save them and letting them pull out and not making any corrective measures is so nuts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right, but this is a new thing is what I'm saying. Yeah, relatively. This didn't exist in the year 2000. You never saw this. So in the last 24 years, all of a sudden it's become a thing that people are looting stores on a regular basis to the point where they have to move out of cities because there's no correction in the way they enforce the laws.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It could get sideways enough where a Republican, a Rudy Giuliani type character can get in there. That depends on how much they have the system rigged. But I think there's a real possibility that someone could reach or some conservative Democrat, you know, some law and order Democrat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, you can have one of those. But people are just going to have to get fed up. And the problem is if they don't get fed up and they keep voting for the same thing like they seem to do in California and a lot of other places, they're never going to change. It's just going to keep getting worse. And I don't understand that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's like how much do you love your ideology when you don't realize that they're fucking your life up?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Yeah, I do. I have faith in people. I really do. I think we come really close to fucking up a lot and we pull ourselves out of the ashes. And I think there's been – if you just follow the course of our society over the last hundred years, there's been a lot of ups and downs. There was prohibition. There was World War I, World War II, Vietnam.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There's a lot of things where it looked like society was over. Kent State, oh, my God, what's going on? Martin Luther King gets shot. JFK gets shot. There was a lot of terrible moments. And then things got better. And then things – it's always – if you look on a chart, there's always – Generally speaking, over time, there's less crime, less problems. The economy does a little bit better.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Cost of living changes. The way you live your life improves overall, generally. I think if you look at like a thousand years to today, it's obvious. There's a clear path. It's just like got to make sure that whatever dip we're in right now, we correct. Yeah. I mean, I have all the things that we're doing wrong.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Do you really think they've studied it? Looked at the personalities of the people? Whether or not they have weird dreams about being stuck in a freezer?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It doesn't mean you can't do all the good things that like progressive people want to do. in terms of funding education and helping people get over drug addiction and homelessness. All those things should be funded. It's a good idea to have more healthy, happy people in our society. But also, you can't rob the store. You can't.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But also, you shouldn't just be able to sneak in across the border because terrorists are a real thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Except really super progressive DAs who think that the criminal justice system is inherently racist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It just means it's safe and healthy. It's simple, real food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body. The Farmer's Dog makes it easy to help your dog live a long, healthy life by sending you fresh food that's pre-portioned just for your dog's needs. Because every dog is different, and I'm not just talking about breeds.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right. The thing about drugs is already illegal. So if drugs were legal, all the negative aspects of drugs other than addiction and overdose are already illegal. People that do meth and break into a house because they need money for more meth. That's already illegal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And the problem with drugs being illegal is the same problem they had with prohibition during the 1930s in this country. What year was it when alcohol...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It was like seven or eight years, right, where alcohol was illegal?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But what year did it end? It ended a couple of years before they made marijuana illegal, which is hilarious because it's a complete shift. They literally took the people that were chasing alcohol, they chased them after marijuana. 1920 to 30. 1920, so 13 years. Yeah, that's nuts. 13 years. But people were still boozing. Of course. They're just dying.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But it also, my point was that it pumped up organized crime. Yeah, of course. And that's where Al Capone got rich and all these people got rich. They're bootleggers, moonshiners. That's where NASCAR comes from.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But a lot of the places, look, it didn't work in Portland when they decriminalized, because Portland was already in a fucked up shit hole.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Portland needed rule. They needed Jesus. So Jesus should have come to Portland and sorted that place out. But instead, they got, like, just do whatever you want, man. And then, of course, they're already addicted to drugs, so they're just going to do more drugs. But if you look at what they did with Portugal, that had a profound effect.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There's countries that have decriminalized drugs, and it's been very beneficial, but You're always still buying them from criminals because even when it's decriminalized, it's not legal to sell them and profit from them. But it is legal to sell Adderall. It's like we're in a screwball, fucked up world where we have things that we've accepted as being okay just because they're grandfathered in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So you're saying that all the babies that are sociopaths come from sex?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's so fucked up. And then other things like weed, which is the best example, but other things like for veterans, like psychedelics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's all dumb, and it doesn't make any sense if you don't want to prop up the organized crime. Because there's a reason why the cartel's worth billions and billions and billions of dollars. It's because of us, because we have drugs that are illegal, and they bring the drugs over and sell it to us, and that's how they make money.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And if you don't want to fix that, just say it. Just say it. Because if you want to fix it, there's only one way to do it. And the one way to do it is to regulate it in-house. Like make it in America, regulate it in America, and then use a responsible portion of that for treatment, a lot of that treatment, which should include psychedelics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
So if you want to make things legal and then set up Ibogaine clinics everywhere. Absolutely. I bet you would get a lot of clean people that would ordinarily have a problem. But I bet Kat would still be taking nicotine and doing speed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
There's a lot of people that have had profound release and relief. just something that allows them to move on past the death of a loved one. There's certain people that get devastated by things, and psychedelics have helped them in tremendous ways. And they just denied, the FDA just denied, you know, MAPS has run this long-term study on MDMA.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And, you know, now they have to go through more studies. And it's very unfortunate because people have benefited tremendously from that kind of therapy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Well, there's not just that. There's so limited resources in terms of how to deal with your mental health problem. If you're not allowing people to use psychedelics and you're deciding and most of the people that are deciding are also people that haven't experienced psychedelics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
If you really wanted to help the troops, you would give them access to that stuff because there's been a lot of people that have had tremendous results. So I'm saying it's going to work for everybody. It's not a cure all. It's not a panacea, but it's a tool. It's a tool in the toolbox. And we need a lot of tools. There's a lot of people out there that are hurting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You know, so-and-so's kids here. Do your best. I don't think you really have to worry about that. The reason why I brought that up is because Ted Kaczynski, when he was young, there was something wrong with him, some sort of medical condition. And they brought him to some hospital where he received no touch, no physical touch for like a long period of time, like months and months.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's crazy that we still have to argue about this in 2024. I know. With all the information that we have now on the Internet and all the people that have had to go to Costa Rica and have these retreats and come back and be cured of opiate addiction and all these problems that they've had. And we're still like, eh, more tests. Yeah. More tests. But here's some fentanyl. More tests.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But here, take your oxys. Yeah. More tests. But you need speed. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
I'm a big believer in a person, a human being should not be able to tell another human being what they can and cannot do with their life and their body if it doesn't hurt anybody else.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
In my mind, psychedelics fall into that area. And if there's no benefit, no objective benefit, then why are all these people enthusiasts? Why are all these people doing it? Why are all these people talking about profound experiences and how much it's benefited them? And the people that are saying that you can't do it, have you done it? Do you know what the fuck you're talking about?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And if you don't, probably you shouldn't be the one deciding on this. Yeah. Absolutely. You should let people decide. The more freedom you have, the better it is for everybody. But, you know, they're worried about the whole system getting like 1960 again. You know, like tune in, turn on, drop out, all that crazy shit that was going on when people became flower children.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Is homelessness better? If you had 100,000 hippies in LA just like selling flowers in the street, would that be worse?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And if it was legal, you'd be able to find out who can and cannot take it. Yes. Because there's some people, they got a screw loose and something goes, and they eat mushrooms and all of a sudden they think they can fly. People get a little nutty and certain people don't come back, especially acid. I've heard some acid stories where people didn't come back. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But you don't know until you run studies, when things are legal and you allow people to run these studies and you come up with effective dosages, you find out what people are allergic to, what's this chemical reaction that people have, maybe certain medications that you shouldn't cross with it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
To an adult. And the person who's telling you is uninformed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And there's no real rational... If you could just have a conversation with a person, not like a debate, not in front of Congress, like this. Just you and me for hours. Let's just sit down for hours and you tell me why you think that psychedelics should be... prohibited for all adults. You tell me why. And I'm going to tell you why I think they should.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Then I'm going to ask you some questions about what you think they do. And then you would get a sense over the course of a couple of hours to talk to this person. This person has no fucking business telling people what they can and can't take. They're just bureaucrats.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And his brother who turned him in, his brother who read the Unabomber's manifesto and realized, like, I know how this guy's talking. My brother's a genius and a real psycho. And this is my brother. And so he turned him in and that's how they caught the Unabomber.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
They're just bureaucrats and they know that there's a certain amount of people that are going to – it's going to benefit them to vote in a certain way and state a certain opinion. And there's a certain amount of vested interests, a certain amount of special interest groups that would like them to continue to vote in a very specific way. And that's their God. That's who they go with.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Right. And those people never want to be president. Isn't it ironic? You'd want the president to do something, at least some sort of a psychedelic experience one time to just connect with God real quick, come back and go, okay, I think we can do better.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It probably would. But you'd probably get less politicians. They'd probably just quit. They'd be like, I don't want to do this job. Yeah. You know, I mean, to be able to person who could just gaslight 250 million people on a regular basis, like you have to be out of your mind.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Like you have to be really a crazy person to stand in front of people and lie about the economy and lie about job numbers and lie about this and lie about that. Like that's the most unpsychedelic perspective ever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
What's the most unpsychedelic job? I would say White House press secretary. Yeah. You're a professional bullshit artist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
You're just soothing everything over and making everything seem normal and making it seem like they've done an amazing job and everything's under control.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But he attributes one of the things that's wrong with his brother with the time where he was a baby where he received no touch and no love. And that it just fucked with his head. And I wonder... Those little embryos just sit in a freezer somewhere. I don't think so.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Regular life is too fucked for them. There's people that regular reality is too slippery. They shouldn't be doing anything. Those people need some other kind of help. And I don't know what that help is. I'm not a psychiatrist. But I do know that for a lot of people, they're beneficial. I know a lot of people shouldn't drink. But alcohol is legal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And, you know, and all these things are things that we need to learn. And the only way we learn them is if we have access to them. Yeah, we know what the real benefits actually are and what the real risks actually are. We know what the real risks of Jack Daniels are. It's like there's a long history of people drinking themselves to death to death. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Just getting beat up in the street because you're a fucking drunk and you mouth off to somebody.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Now you're in the hospital with a broken skull. Like, there's so many detrimental side effects to alcohol, but yet no one is saying we should make alcohol illegal. No. Could you imagine if that was their next pitch? Yeah. Prohibition, we need to bring it back. What the fuck? What the fuck are you talking about? But if they say it with weed, everybody's like... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
That's the way safer drug. Yeah. It's way safer. Yeah. Way safer. It makes everybody a lot more peaceful. It's way less violent.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And everybody's like, fuck yeah. Yeah. The next day you're like, oh, the sun is killing my fucking head.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
It's nuts. It doesn't make any sense. It's also been here before people. Yeah. Like, what are we doing? Making nature illegal. It's so stupid. Yeah. The whole thing is stupid. It's just and it's stupid. And the fact that we still allow it is so crazy. And no one's it would have it sounds trivial to people that don't do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But if you allowed people control of their consciousness and to have these kind of experiences, you'd have a lot more people that are thinking about things in a lot more considerate and careful way. And that's what I think the benefit of it is. Yeah. Even if it's not – maybe you're really not contacting God or aliens, whatever it is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
Religion thinks that the soul enters the body on the 48th day, right? Is that what it is?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
But just the benefits of having it – but I think there's a lot of things that can make people more kind and considerate. Like, in a very counterintuitive way, I think martial arts do. Jiu-jitsu especially. They're the nicest people I've ever met. Like, my friends from jiu-jitsu are the nicest fucking people. Because every day they're trying to kill each other.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2200 - Kat Timpf
And they don't have any of that in regular life. There's no chest puffing. There's no douchebaggery. Like, people that are, like...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2080 - John Reeves
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2080 - John Reeves
By George, look what I have here. Oh, my. I made a sizable donation to the museum, and they gifted me with this wonderful saber-toothed tiger skull.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2080 - John Reeves
Think, wolves are amazing. They're so beautiful. Why'd they go extinct?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2080 - John Reeves
Why are we worrying about a dollar? I'm not sure where you're going with this.