The Genius Life
487: Why Feeling "Seen and Heard" Can Save Your Relationship and Your Sanity | Caroline Fleck, PhD
Wed, 07 May 2025
Dr. Caroline Fleck is a licensed clinical psychologist and executive coach, and the author of Validation, a powerful new book that teaches how to transform relationships and communication through the science of being seen, heard, and accepted.15 Daily Steps to Lose Weight and Prevent Disease PDF: https://bit.ly/46XTn8f - Get my FREE eBook now!Subscribe to The Genius Life on YouTube! - http://youtube.com/maxlugavereWatch my new documentary Little Empty Boxes - http://littleemptyboxes.comThis episode is proudly sponsored by:Experience the unparalleled flavor and health benefits of fresh, artisanal olive oils delivered right to your door with the Fresh-Pressed Olive Oil Club—your first bottle for just $1 at OLIVEOILGENIUS.com.BiOptimizers makes a magnesium mega-supplement containing 7 forms of magnesium. They also make great digestive support aids. Head to bioptimizers.com/genius and use code GENIUS10 for 10% off.Manukora makes delicious, creamy, glyphosate-free Manuka honey that’s rich in MGO. Head to http://manukora.com/genius for $25 off a starter Kit, which comes with an MGO 850+ Manuka Honey jar, 5 honey travel sticks, a wooden spoon, and a guidebook!Struggling with diet culture confusion? Fay connects you with a registered dietitian—often for $0 with insurance. To create a personalized, evidence-based plan that actually works, head to FayNutrition.com/GENIUS.
Chapter 1: What is the purpose of validation in relationships?
What up, team? It's episode 487 of The Genius Life. Let's go. The Genius Life. What up, everybody? I'm your host, Max Lugavere, and welcome back to The Genius Life, a show where we're not afraid to get deep, get real, and occasionally question our own lunch choices. Today, I'm joined by Dr. Caroline Fleck, a licensed clinical psychologist, executive coach, and author of the book Validation.
This conversation is all about how validation, in its truest form, can radically transform relationships, improve mental health, and build bridges across even the widest divides.
We unpack the difference between validation and agreement, how it's used in high stakes clinical therapy, why it's more powerful than love in some relationships, and how to use it as a tool, even in arguments about phones with your kids. A tough one, I know. But make sure you listen through to the end because that's when things take a raw and vulnerable turn.
We talk about depression, trauma, chronic disease, and even navigate the complicated ethics of meat consumption, cognitive dissonance, and animal welfare. It's one of the most open-hearted conversations I've had on the show. Don't forget to share this episode with someone you love, and if you haven't yet, leave a rating and review on your podcast app of choice. It really helps.
And hey, if you want more insights like this delivered straight to your inbox, plus bonus content and exclusive discounts on the products I use and love, join my free weekly newsletter at maxlugavere.com slash newsletter. It's no spam, just science, and it's loved by over 120,000 high performers. And now with all that out of the way, let's get into it with the wonderful Dr. Caroline Fleck.
Here we go. Dr. Caroline Fleck, welcome to the show. How are you doing?
I'm doing well. How are you?
I'm doing great. I'm excited to have you in.
I am excited to be here.
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Chapter 2: How does validation differ from agreement?
No, no, common mistake, but that's not what we're talking about. We're also not talking about agreement, which I want to clarify upfront because a lot of people confuse validation. If I validate somebody, I must agree with them, which is not the case.
Okay, what's the difference?
So validation communicates basically that you see the other person, you hear them, okay? If I was to give you the academic definition, we'd say validation communicates, first and foremost, it's a form of communication. It communicates mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in a way that conveys genuine acceptance, okay? So it's just that feeling of like, oh, I feel seen.
I feel like you really get me, all right? I can validate somebody even though I don't agree with their perspective. I can validate why somebody would eat meat even though I myself am a vegetarian. And if I wanted to try and change their opinion and have a debate, I could do that too. I could definitely find plenty that I disagree with and that I could nitpick.
But if I'm just looking for the validity in their perspective, the kernel of truth, I can look and find that and communicate that.
Are you actually vegetarian or was that just an example?
Oh, you are? Yeah.
Nice. I'm a proud omnivore.
Yeah.
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Chapter 3: Why is validation crucial for mental health?
Oh, really? Yeah. Like online?
Well, because it's what you said. Any attention is better than no attention.
It is.
And I guess your boy just likes attention.
Yeah. Well, so a negative attention is positive attention feels really good. But on that spectrum, I would say acceptance. Now, that's really yummy. Right. So if we were to kind of put these things on a scale because praise and all that, that's a judgment. But it also is contingent upon you meeting or exceeding someone's expectations. All right.
So you can get really into like facade making, especially with like social media. You're filtering this. You're filtering that. You're getting all this praise. But it's somewhat empty because it's not you. that the person truly quote unquote likes or appreciates or whatever. It's this version of you that you've created that's being reinforced.
And then you're reinforced for distorting more and more. And it's just there's this hollowness. There's this emptiness to that type of connection because it's not you that's accepted. It's not you that's appreciated. It's the version you've created.
Wow. Yeah, that checks out. So what are the benefits then of understanding the breadth of your research then? Is it for conflict resolution? Is it for mental health? Is it for all of the above?
It is for all of the above. So there's a really interesting kind of backstory to validation, which is that it came out of a treatment, at least the skills that I teach. They were developed in a treatment for borderline personality disorder, which is a pretty severe psychological disorder. And up until the 90s, we had no treatment for this population.
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