Michael Barbaro
Appearances
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Bavaro. This is The Daily. In his first address to Congress on Tuesday night, President Trump took a highly partisan victory lap as Democratic lawmakers openly protested against him. Today, my colleague Maggie Haberman walks us through the speech and the reactions to it in the room. It's Wednesday, March 5th. So, Maggie, are you ready to begin? I am, Michael.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Even as he takes away their power.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Eventually, Trump turns from talking about domestic accomplishments to his vision for foreign policy, which is, as we've talked about with you on the show in the past, this unusual combination of America first and America the imperialist. Correct.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And from there, he pivots to what was essentially the biggest subject of the past week as it relates to him, which is Russia and Ukraine.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Right. To Ukraine from the U.S.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
So what Trump does in this section of the speech you're saying is he's saying to both Zelensky and the world, see, my stick-based approach, my hammer Zelensky approach worked. And so now I will resume negotiations with him.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
OK, so talk about how the speech eventually comes to an end.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Right. And usually both parties stand just out of respect for the office.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Which is a very different thing to say as a candidate than to say in a joint address to Congress because suddenly you have the president saying, I believe I was put here by God to save the country before members of Congress.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
So, Maggie, when the speech was over, I'm curious what you were thinking. This is not your first Trump joint address to Congress. It's probably your fifth?
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Well, Maggie, thank you very much.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
On Tuesday night, in the Democratic response to Trump's speech, Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan directly addressed demoralized members of her party.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
and suggested that under Trump, democracy itself is now at risk.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. The Times reports that as part of President Trump's sweeping campaign of cost cutting, the Internal Revenue Service is preparing to eliminate as much as 50% of its staff, Experts say that such a major reduction in staffing could jeopardize the ability of the IRS to complete its basic mission of collecting taxes.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And a Supreme Court ruling on Tuesday further restricted the ability of the Environmental Protection Agency to regulate pollution. The question before the court in the case was whether, under the Clean Water Act, the EPA could penalize the city of San Francisco for violating policies on the release of wastewater into the Pacific Ocean.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
City officials argued that the EPA rules were so vague that it was impossible to know when the city had violated them, a claim that the Supreme Court justices endorsed as they struck down the EPA's rules. Today's episode was produced by Muj Zaydi, Asa Chaturvedi, Michael Simon-Johnson, and Eric Krupke.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
It was edited by Rachel Quester, contains original music by Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Grunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. Special thanks to Nick Pittman. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
But he seemed to be doing that deliberately, as he has in the past, to suggest in this room before the entire country, in this live televised address, that he has a mandate.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And heckling is not as unusual as it once was for this kind of important speech. But Green seemed to go further than your average heckler.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
I should add, Maggie, I was watching this on television as well. I noticed at this moment, not only that the Speaker is very frustrated, J.D. Vance stands up and signals with his thumb that it's time to eject Congressman Greene.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Which is exactly what ends up happening.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Okay. After this set of back and forth between the president and unhappy Democrats, we finally get to the meat of this speech.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And what are the examples of this woke version of America that he's sweeping away?
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Okay. Well, thank you for joining us at 11.40 p.m.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Right, he's very pointedly mocking the federal government in a pretty unfamiliar way for this setting.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And then it felt like he was turning the page from what he inherited and dislikes and wants to sweep away, as you just put it, to this new vision for government that he's created.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Thank you for correcting my time stamping. It only feels appropriate. So, Maggie, describe the scene for us on the house floor as all of this gets underway on Tuesday night.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Right. These were tariffs he announced just hours before this speech.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Which may inevitably increase costs for U.S. consumers.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He's acknowledging these tariffs are going to hurt American farmers. That's not his normal mode to admit that tariffs might make someone miserable. But he's doing so because he knows this group of Americans voted for him in large numbers.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Right. He's saying, I am the reason border crossings went down. We didn't need anything to go through Congress. And the reason that felt significant is that one of the questions, I think, I'm going to suspect you agree, that hovered over this speech was,
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
before it even started, was how this group of lawmakers was going to relate to a president who since taking office has consistently circumvented them, right? He has been shutting down agencies that Congress funds. He's been freezing federal spending that Congress has appropriated.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And what struck me about this particular moment is you have the president saying to members of Congress, I didn't even need you or want you to get anything done on the border. I did it on my own. And they're cheering. So in a sense, they're cheering their own powerlessness. And that was striking.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
Now that Trump's plan has become a reality, we asked dozens of federal workers to explain in their own words what it's been like to actually live through it.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
So far, of the two million federal workers offered a buyout by the Trump administration, an estimated 75,000 have accepted the offer. In addition, the White House has ordered federal agencies to terminate another 200,000 probationary workers. Of those, about 11,000 have already been fired.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
Finally, the president has identified about 9,000 more workers that he wants to eliminate as he dismantles their agencies. The firings, which are still in their early stages, are expected to continue and to accelerate in the coming weeks.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
Less than a week after President Trump spoke by phone with Russian President Vladimir Putin, diplomats from both countries met in Saudi Arabia to begin a remarkable reset in the two countries' relationship. It was the latest chapter in a stunning about-face in U.S.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
policy toward Russia, which has sought over the past few years to isolate the country for invading Ukraine and killing thousands of its civilians.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
After the meeting, U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio said that Russia had demonstrated what he saw as a genuine interest in ending its war on Ukraine. And he praised President Trump for pursuing normalized relations between the two countries.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
Today's episode was reported and produced by Claire Tennesketter, Stella Tan, Anna Foley, and Jessica Chung, with help from Sydney Harper. It was edited by Devin Taylor, contains original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Sophia Landman, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landverk of Wonderland.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
Special thanks to Neil Vigder, Tim Bull, and Lauren McCarthy. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
On the campaign trail, Donald Trump and his allies left little doubt that if they returned to power, they would try to make working for the federal government as miserable an experience as possible.
The Daily
Inside the Trump Purge: Federal Workers Tell Their Stories
by treating career bureaucrats as the enemy and by driving them out through layoffs, buyouts and agency closures.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. As soon as this week, after months of testimony, verdicts are expected in a rape trial that has both horrified and captivated the people of France. Today...
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
She says this out loud, which sounds a bit, to me, like the words of a civil rights figure, not a French grandmother.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
So after lifting the veil of anonymity that so often surrounds the victim, she's now making sure that there is no anonymity whatsoever around the conduct of the accused men.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It's hard for me, Catherine, to fathom what kind of a defense can be put forward by the dozens of men, many of them in this courtroom, knowing what's on those videos, these audible sounds of her being asleep. So what are they saying or do we expect them to say in this trial in their own defense, if anything? Right.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
And since we're talking about the defense of these men, what has her ex-husband said in his defense?
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
So he is in no way denying that the worst conceivable version of this is exactly what happened.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Hmm. You had said that Gisele Pelico wanted to change society with this approach to the trial, by letting herself be named, by opening it up to reporters like you. So the question is, has she accomplished that? And if she has, how exactly?
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It feels like if this scene outside the courtroom is any indication that what Giselle Pelico wants to happen around shame and rape culture, it's actually already starting to happen. She is effectuating this change herself.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Well, to understand how the woman at the center of this case does this remarkable thing, let's start at the beginning of this case.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It strikes me that... the unintended consequence of these longtime practices that we use when it comes to rape, of shrouding a victim in anonymity, which makes so much sense.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
for so many reasons, because of the shame you described, that they've had this unintentional consequence that we haven't really thought that much about, which is we end up focused so little on the women who have had this experience because they mostly remain anonymous. We end up spending so much of our time focused on the men. And what's changed here is that Gisele Pelico has said,
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Not just that she's going to switch up the question of shame, but she's going to switch up the question of basic power.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Well, Catherine, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Here's what else you need to know today. Ukraine says it has assassinated the general who led Russia's nuclear defense force The general, Igor Kurylov, was killed when an explosive device planted inside a scooter was detonated on Tuesday morning near the entryway to a residential building. It was one of Ukraine's most brazen assassinations since Russia invaded Ukraine nearly three years ago.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
On Tuesday, New York City prosecutors charged Luigi Mangione with first-degree murder in the shooting death of UnitedHealthcare's CEO. The charges branded Mangione a terrorist and portrayed his alleged murder plot as a political act. Today's episode was produced by Shannon Lin and Eric Krupke, with help from Rob Zipko and Olivia Nadd.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It was edited by Lexi Diao and Michael Benoit, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Sophia Landman, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landferk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Zegolene Lestradek, That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
So there is something very dark happening just under the surface of what looks like this very idyllic life.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
My colleague, correspondent Catherine Porter, on the woman at the center of that trial and how, with a single decision, she has turned the power dynamics of the Me Too era on their head. It's Wednesday, December 18th. Catherine, it has been a really long time, and I am very glad to be speaking with you.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
An unfathomable piece of information to absorb, I have to imagine, because in this moment, she is hearing that her whole life is not what she thought it was, and that the man she's married to is a monster.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Mm-hmm. And just to be very clear, because it almost seems impossible to wrap one's head around this, she, if I'm intuiting from you correctly, has no inkling of any of this.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
And what do we learn about these men accused of this unbelievably horrible act?
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It feels like this is normally the stage in a story like this, as we know from countless Me Too episodes of this show that we have made, where despite even the unique horrors of what you're describing here... The legal system kicks in in this kind of predictable way. And the media world starts to pay attention in a way that focuses very heavily on the perpetrators, on the men.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
So we're going to be talking today about a case that, when it first began to reverberate outside of France, where you are, really shocked the world. And then, as even the most shocking things do, it kind of receded from our collective consciousness, but not from yours.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
And the victim, the woman here, quite understandably, remains anonymous.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
In other words, to use her husband's name.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
We'll be right back. So, Catherine, take us inside the courtroom, into this trial, and walk us through how this remarkable decision ends up influencing how the case plays out.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
From what you're saying, the scale, the enormity of the alleged crime here is just physically inescapable in the room.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
And at the center of it all, quite literally, the scene is Giselle Pelico.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. On Tuesday, the confirmation process for Donald Trump's cabinet began with his most controversial choice, Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense. Today... my colleague, national security correspondent Eric Schmidt, on the contentious and dramatic hearing and the odds that Hegseth will soon be running the military.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
And what exactly does he mean when he's using that word standards? It sounds like he is suggesting that... during a Democratic administration of Joe Biden, that those standards got lowered. But he doesn't quite come out and say it, but is that what he's implying?
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Right, and she had seemed to be against his nomination in the beginning and then slowly began to express support for him after several meetings. And so where we meet her on Tuesday is that she seems to be in his camp. That's right.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Right. And that matters because she seems to be basically pushing back against these Democratic women senators and the case they're making.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Beyond these questions around gender and DEI, where else does this questioning go?
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Right, and Hexeth answers them all like kind of rapid fire, and he seems to get the answers right.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Right. And by the end, it's very interesting. Democrats have basically been saying, you're not technically qualified to run the Department of Defense in the way that we think about previous secretaries of defense, and therefore the DOD under you will be a mess.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
And Republicans are saying, no, actually, because he has the right kind of experience and because he's going to root out, you know, what they would describe as kind of woke DEI culture in the military... He's actually going to save the Department of Defense from the current mess, as they see it. They're both kind of talking right past each other, the Democrats and Republicans.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Eric, what was so surprising about that is that here you have a nominee to run the military saying that in his mind, there are moments where soldiers perhaps don't need to follow the chain of command, which is a weird message to send when you want to be the head of the military.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Eric, by the end of the hearing, it very much felt like every Democrat in that room was signaling that they will be opposing Hegseth. And my sense is that all the Republicans on that committee are going to be voting for Hegseth. And so he will be recommended by this committee.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
And if we assume that the same scenario plays out in the full Senate, then Hegseth most likely becomes the next secretary of defense. And...
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
It would seem like there's some risk here, especially for the Democrats in the Senate, that whether they mean to or not, in their opposition to Hegseth, they're kind of reinforcing the message of the election itself, which is that Trump is the candidate of government disruption and Democrats are the party that guards the status quo. What do you make of that?
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Well, Eric, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
On Tuesday night, Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa, whose vote is considered decisive for Hegseth's confirmation, said that she would support his nomination, all but assuring that he will become the next Secretary of Defense. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Officials in California now say it may take weeks or longer to fully extinguish the largest of the wildfires that have ravaged greater Los Angeles. On Tuesday, heavy winds ignited several new fires, but many of them were quickly brought under control. And US securities regulators have sued Elon Musk in federal court over his conduct in purchasing Twitter.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
According to regulators, Musk violated securities laws in 2022 by amassing a large stake in the social media company without filing the required notification. But because of Musk's close relationship with President-elect Trump, it's likely that the incoming administration may seek to drop the lawsuit. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Rochelle Bonja, and Carlos Prieto.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
It was edited by M.J. Davis-Lynn and Maria Byrne, contains original music by Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Right, the firebrand or the charmer. Right, or some combination. So given those three big questions going into this hearing, take us into the actual confirmation hearing itself as you tried to figure out which way it was going to go for each of those three constituencies, Republicans, Democrats, and Hegseth himself.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Right. And given that original question you posed, it now seems that Republicans will not be acknowledging any misgivings about Pete Hegseth that they had early on.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
It's Wednesday, January 15th. Eric, from the moment that Pete Hegseth was nominated to run the Department of Defense, it, as you well know, created a storm of controversy on both sides of the aisle because of the reports of his personal misconduct, because of his views on issues like whether women should be in the military, and because of his lack of traditional management experience.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
It's as thorough a public disqualification, a kind of dismissal, as I think I've ever seen in, I don't know, the 10 or 15 years I've ever watched a congressional hearing. It's a senior member of one of these committees basically saying, I don't even know why you are in front of me. It's a total takedown.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
And, of course, Hegstead is sitting across from Senator Reid. At this point, his jaw looks really tense. And then suddenly, and I was watching this alongside of you, it's his turn to finally speak. What does he say?
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
Everything about him represented a major deviation from the norm of who the Secretary of Defense is, so much so that it looked like Donald Trump might dump him as his choice, but that hasn't happened. So heading into this confirmation hearing, what for you were the big questions about how this very highly anticipated day would unfold?
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
What, if anything, does Hegseth say in this opening statement about the questions that have come up around his resume?
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
The ranking Democrat is determined to try to disqualify him in the eyes of the public. And Hank Seth is proudly and pretty diplomatically and cleverly embracing the role of the change agent.
The Daily
Drunkenness, Women and Wokeness: A Dramatic Confirmation Hearing for Pete Hegseth
So, Eric, talk about the fireworks portion of this hearing, the questioning of Hegseth from senators of both parties.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, my colleague Adam Liptak wades through that debate. It's Wednesday, February 12th.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
And I guess I'm curious, based on your legal analysis and your reporting over the past couple of weeks, where we think the Supreme Court may choose to weigh in and attempt to curtail the president's
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
And why would the court think that Trump could not, even if he wanted to, disobey that ruling?
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
I'm curious, Adam, what would be a case where the Supreme Court might fear that Trump would disobey them? A pretty staggering thing to contemplate, but from what you're saying, the court actively does fear that.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
Adam, welcome back. Always a distinct pleasure. It's good to be here, Michael. The phrase du jour, Adam, right now in Washington is constitutional crisis. And we come to you as our resident scholar of the law and the courts to understand what a constitutional crisis actually is and how you know when you are in the middle of one.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
Right. You're saying the court's authority is a norm and Trump likes to subvert norms. And you think the court would go out of its way to avoid rulings, even when they are correct on the legal merits, that Trump might seek to subvert, which is pretty fascinating.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
So what we would seem to be looking at, Adam, based on everything you're saying, is a legislative branch that's not at all enthusiastic about curtailing the president's authority. We're looking at a judicial branch with the Supreme Court atop it that is disinclined to try to curtail the president's power out of fear that he may ultimately just ignore them.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
And so it seems very possible that, as these legal scholars have told you, we may be in what they see as a constitutional crisis. I guess my question is, what happens if we are in a constitutional crisis and most Americans don't care? And I ask that because Trump was elected by tens of millions of people who... wanted him to shake up the system.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
And early polling does very much suggest that many people are pleased at the pace at which he's fulfilling his promises. And part of that promise was a stronger executive who's just busting through any barrier in his way. And so is it a constitutional crisis if a lot of Americans don't see it as a crisis?
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
On Tuesday night, President Trump personally denounced the federal judges who have blocked his actions over the past few weeks, especially his attempts to shut down agencies like USAID and freeze their funds.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
And he delivered what appeared to be a thinly veiled threat against the judges who stand in his way.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
Sure. During an extraordinary 30-minute appearance in the Oval Office on Tuesday night, Elon Musk, joined by his four-year-old son, defended his plans to drastically shrink the size of the federal government.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
But Musk made multiple unsubstantiated claims about government fraud, including the claim that officials at USAID have taken kickbacks. And he acknowledged that some of his most inflammatory public claims, for instance, that aid workers planned to send $50 million worth of condoms to Hamas, were wrong.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
During a visit to the White House, King Abdullah of Jordan rejected President Trump's proposal that his country take in Palestinians living in Gaza. Nevertheless, Trump reiterated his plan for the United States to take over Gaza through unspecified means and for Jordan and Egypt to accept Palestinians who would be permanently displaced as the U.S. redevelops the territory.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
Today's episode was produced by Will Reed, Carlos Prieto, and Mary Wilson. It was edited by Maria Byrne. Contains original music by Alishaba Etube, Alyssa Moxley, and Dan Powell. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lanfork of Wonder League. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
So given that loose definition that seems to acknowledge the fluidity of a constitutional crisis, how should we think about whether President Trump's actions over the past few weeks represent a constitutional crisis or perhaps something else, something less serious?
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
Well, Adam, walk us through some of the specific examples of how President Trump is muddling with our traditional notions of Article I, Article II, basically the separation of powers between the legislative and executive branch and how he is trying to expand the powers of the executive.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
So, for example, what you just said would apply to the congressionally appropriated money for USAID, the foreign aid agency that the president has decided to shut down.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
So what might deepen this sense that we are in a constitutional crisis is not just that the president is ignoring Congress's will, its actions, its appropriations, but he's not even engaging them on these questions in a way that he very much could.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
Well, where else do his actions seem to potentially be creating a constitutional crisis?
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
And that list of actions that you just went through, it feels like they aren't all the same. So which ones, in your mind and in the mind of the legal scholars that you're speaking to, are just the president seeking to expand his authority, which we've always understood President Trump to want to do, even during the campaign?
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
And which ones seem like just frontal assaults on the Constitution and potentially the stuff of a constitutional crisis?
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
So now that we know that Congress does not seem inclined to act against this president, the Republican-controlled House and Senate, and given that the president doesn't seem all that interested in engaging this Congress, it very much does seem like we're at a point where if we are, as these scholars have told you, in a constitutional crisis of one form or another, that it will be the courts, the federal courts, that will play a major role in keeping the president in check.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
We'll be right back. Adam, so far, it is not the Supreme Court, as you said, but the lower federal courts that have weighed in on President Trump's actions. And my sense is that so far, they have taken a very dim view of his efforts to expand his executive power and encroach on the powers of Congress.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
Right. And of course, this has prompted some around the president to say, well, hold on a minute. The courts are overstepping their bounds in reining in our efforts to expand our bounds.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
I just want to read what J.D. Vance wrote about this because he tried to put it into a larger legal context. And he seemed to write this right after the president had lost a series of rulings of the kind you just went through. And he wrote, if a judge tried to tell a general how to conduct a military operation, that would be illegal.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
And he goes on to say, if a judge tried to command the attorney general in how to use her discretion as a prosecutor, that would be illegal. And then he goes on to apply this logic to the president. He says, judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power either. So what do we make of that argument?
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
In other words, it may be a narrower interpretation of when the president can ignore the courts than perhaps it seems.
The Daily
A Constitutional Crisis
Well, what Vance is writing here seems to presuppose that there's going to come a moment pretty soon when these lower court rulings get appealed all the way up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court issues a ruling against President Trump that attempts to rein in his power.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Right, and the question immediately became, what do you do after one of the world's great, important, essential, beloved buildings is this badly damaged?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
That case got cracked wide open, all of which delayed this much-awaited debut of yours on the show. And today is the day. You, our chief architecture critic... finally here talking about something worthy of your biography, Notre Dame.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
We'll be right back. So, Michael, tell us how France did this, how they pulled this on-time miracle off.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, just to begin, do you remember the first time you stepped inside that cathedral?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
So this is not exactly living inside the cathedral as you had originally thought, but you have this chance. So tell us about this one day you get to go inside.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
There are many times when I could have left and I haven't left here.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
I'm trying to envision people going out into the forests of France, looking at trees and saying, ah, that one is worthy of that beam. You'll remember Francois and the rafters up there. Cut down that tree.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
So your memory of it is vague, but the impression I'm getting is that whatever it did to you, it did something.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Devotional to the original workers and the original mission and meaning of this entire cathedral.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
I'm curious, once you get down from the roof and you are witnessing this exceptionally faithful devotional effort to bring the roof back to what it looked like a thousand years ago, what you saw on the interior, probably the best known portions of Notre Dame.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
So let's fast forward a good deal to several years ago. Where were you when you first heard that Notre Dame was burning?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, that makes me wonder, as an architecture critic, did you have, by the end of this tour, by the end of this coveted day that you got, some kind of final assessment of... the experience of this restored cathedral.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Basically, you should prepare yourself for going inside a 1,000-year-old building that has been power washed.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, you're getting at the question I've been waiting to ask you this entire conversation, which is if architecture, as you have laid out here, tells us something about us, what did this renovation, this project, tell us about ourselves right now?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
And now it's in the best shape that it's ever been in probably a thousand years.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, Michael, on that really beautiful note, thank you very, very much.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Here's what else you need to know today. On Tuesday, Israel said it had destroyed Syria's navy during a series of airstrikes in what it described as defensive measures designed to protect itself against Syria's new government.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
But the attacks have defied warnings from Western governments, who fear they may ignite a new conflict in the region, and fear that Israel is using the fall of Syria's government as an opportunity to take offensive actions.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
As the Assad government fell over the weekend, Israeli ground forces advanced beyond the demilitarized zone on the Israeli-Syria border, marking Israel's first overt entry into Syrian territory in more than 50 years. Today's episode was produced by Carlos Prieto and Jessica Chung.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
It was edited by Michael Benoit, contains original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lanferk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Aurelien Breeden, Ségolène Lestradec, Catherine Porter, and Brian Katz. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
the Cathedral of Notre Dame reopened to the public. Today, chief architecture critic Michael Kimmelman with the story of the miracle on the Seine. It's Wednesday, December 11th. Michael, welcome to The Daily.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, I'm curious, when this inquiry is moving along and you're making phone calls and you're researching the history of Notre Dame and trying to understand why the feelings about its burning are so widespread and so deep, what do you find?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, tell us a little bit about that history. And I suspect through that, we will understand what it has meant to us during that entire period.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
In other words, all French roads quite literally lead to this cathedral.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
It's fascinating because what could better embody the idea of a single building's importance to a place than it becomes a central target of an effort to overturn the entire system?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
I don't think we can miss an opportunity, since you brought it with you, to read from the hunchback of Notre Dame.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
I'm just going to acknowledge that we have been trying to get you on the show for seven years. And then two days more, because over the past couple of days, there's been a tremendous amount of very serious news. The government in Syria fell a closely watched manhunt for the suspected murderer of the CEO of a major healthcare company.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
It reminds me of what you said at the beginning of this conversation about architecture, is that this is not some abstract piece of architecture. It's living, it's breathing, it tells us something essential about who we are at any given moment. And Hugo, as you said, he's not saying that through an especially religious lens. He's seeing this more as a secular temple.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, since you just brought it up, remind us, How severe this fire ends up being.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Right. You were wrong when you were on the bike telling your editor it couldn't burn. There's a lot of wood in that cathedral.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
What you're describing would seem to be an incentive structure for the president to create certainty. And that certainty would seem to be... I'm determined to keep these tariffs in place. And I did notice today, we're talking on Monday, that when there was a brief moment where someone posited that there might be a pause, these might be, they shut it down. They said, no, this is for real.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Yeah. Well, when things go really haywire in the markets, We like to bring you in. We reserve you for the— For the crises. Yeah, for the crises. And I think we should start by talking about really the scale of the stock market sell-offs that we have witnessed over the past few days. Just put that into some perspective.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
After the break, White House correspondent Jonathan Swan on how President Trump himself is seeing this moment.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Jonathan, our colleague Andrew Ross Sorkin, who has been on the phone day in, day out with the country's CEOs, just finished explaining how privately they all blame Trump for the crash of the stock market over the past few days.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
And in their minds, this whole program of universal tariffs doesn't really make any sense and is not incentivizing them to do the thing that Trump wants them to do, which is invest long-term in domestic manufacturing, because they're not certain these tariffs are going to last. And meanwhile, their stock prices are down so much that they don't want to do much of anything.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
How is the president viewing this growing perception of him as basically the steward of what the business community sees as something of an economic catastrophe?
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Can you explain why the stock market does not operate any longer as a check against the president because it's very hard to imagine a businessman who prides himself in having achieved the confidence of so many business leaders just shrugging off trillions of dollars being lost in just a handful of days in the stock market because of something he did and only because of something he did.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Monday was yet another dark day on Wall Street, as global stocks whipsawed over President Trump's universal tariffs. A bear market briefly became official in the U.S., and tit-for-tat retaliation with China intensified.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Well, let's talk about what it might look like in the coming weeks and months for him to keep telling what he sees as all the smarty pants that they're wrong and become deeply entrenched in his commitment to these tariffs. Because we're starting to see some evidence, and admittedly it's small, but it's pretty meaningful given—
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
the track record so far in this presidency, of elements of his coalition starting to crack a little bit over tariffs. And it began in the business community. We just talked to Andrew Ross Sorkin about this with Bill Ackman coming out and saying, these tariffs are a big mistake. As Andrew said, Bill Ackman then kind of rolled it back. And Elon Musk coming out and saying, I don't know.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
about these tariffs. I think we should be living in a world of zero tariffs. That does seem meaningful, right? That those people are saying this is a problem out loud.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Right, and that's just worth pausing on. One-fifth the value of certain entire stock indexes. That's just a tremendous amount of wealth.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
The possibility of a business community revolt against this so far remains pretty low. But there's growing evidence of something approaching a mini rebellion of congressional Republicans against these tariffs. And I wonder if you can just talk briefly about that and where you think it might be headed.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
It feels connected to that polling you just described about how uneasy many Americans are about these tariffs. Yeah.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Seven or eight of them have agreed to co-sponsor such legislation, right? Okay.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Mm-hmm. Well, help me understand the thinking of the Trump administration when it comes to this seemingly entrenched position they're in, that they can inflict a lot of pain on the stock market and on people's 401ks. And... not have it come full circle in the form of voters calling members of Congress and saying, I don't like this, do something about it, and them responding.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
The only way I've been able to make sense of it so far is... In what the Treasury Secretary Scott Besson said a couple of days ago.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
He talked about how, in his mind, the consequences of these tariffs so far are really only on the investor class. The argument that Besson seems to be making is that Trump's working class supporters are insulated from the initial pain of these tariffs. Is that the thinking so far?
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
But the problem— That's an important phrase you use, though, off-ramp. That's what Andrew Sorkin said everyone in corporate America is looking for. But if they get that off-ramp, it means that Trump was never serious about the tariffs being a solution— to reestablishing domestic manufacturing.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
So to add to what Andrew said, the business world wants an off-ramp. Now, you say many of Trump's advisors, even his economic advisors, wish there were an off-ramp. There just seems to be one problem, which is that Trump himself may not want an off-ramp. He may be deeply committed to this as a long-term economic vision for the country.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Well, Jonathan, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
On Monday, President Trump said that the United States would hold negotiations with Iran beginning this weekend in a last-ditch attempt to stop Iran's nuclear program. The talks are a turnaround for Trump, who pulled out of the last nuclear deal with Iran in 2018.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
But Iran is moving closer than ever to a workable nuclear weapon, a prospect that neither the United States nor Israel say they can tolerate and might take military action to avoid.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Right. Donald Trump's decision to impose what are being described as universal tariffs have essentially crashed global stock markets. There's no other way to put it. So explain exactly why Trump tariffs equals the stock price of some of the most admired and financially seemingly well put together companies in the country.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
I just want to restate this because I think it's worth putting a really fine point on how this gets back to the stock market. Apple products now hit with these tariffs in a country where it makes this phone. If they raise the price to make up for that tariff, then consumer demand goes down. Therefore, shareholders might think this company is not worth as much. I'm going to start to sell the stock.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
If they eat the cost of it rather than passing it on to the consumer, then their corporate profits are hurt. Therefore, I might sell the stock because I don't think the company's worth as much as I did before these tariffs.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Now, as trillions of dollars in corporate value evaporates, Trump's support in the business world is cracking. And even Republican members of Congress are debating whether to take away Trump's power to wage a trade war.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
And then you're adding to that, Andrew, the reality that the trauma that has just been inflicted on Apple stock is going to filter through the rest of corporate America to all the companies Apple touches or doesn't touch as much as it used to and their profits and their shareholder sense of that company's worth. I'm making this up, but I was thinking about this as you were talking about Apple.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Apple does a lot of advertising with social media companies like Instagram, I have to imagine, with Meta, and therefore that stock might fall.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Got it. So all of this magnified by the scale of the stock market itself helps you understand how Trump's tariffs equal trillions of dollars in lost corporate value over the past few days.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Even the kind of commodity-style, low-cost product of a McDonald's cheeseburger and a Starbucks medium cappuccino?
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
How many business leaders that you talk to are calling up the president and saying, hey, this is not sustainable. This is really a problem for us. Look at our stock price. This is a really, really big deal.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Or have they accepted that the president is deeply committed to a long-term project of tariffs no matter the economic suffering short-term, especially to corporations, out of his long-held belief that this is going to improve domestic manufacturing?
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Well, there are two exceptions to what you just said over the past few days. One of them involves a billionaire investor named Bill Ackman, who throughout the presidential campaign vocally supported Donald Trump. And he, over the past 48 hours or so, comes out and says what many in his world do not. These tariffs are a big mistake.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Fascinating. That billionaires get spooked, but they do, by this president.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Today, Andrew Ross Sorkin with the view from the stock market and Jonathan Swan with the view from the White House. It's Tuesday, April 8th. Andrew, thank you for coming in the studio.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Let's talk about the second exception, which was Elon Musk. He says over the past few days – and we should establish, not that it needs saying, that his Trump-loyal bona fides are pretty much unquestioned at this point. He says, I think that we should be living in a world of zero tariffs between the United States and the European Union. specifically.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
It's a pretty subtle but clear way of saying that this Trump universal tariff program, this is not good.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
I'm glad you brought that up because I think this is an essential question. When you talk to business leaders, do they believe that what we are now in the middle of is a long-term reorienting of the American economy around high tariffs, protectionism, and a project of reestablishing domestic manufacturing? Or are they of the belief that the pain that they're currently experiencing is...
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
going to be a short-term one as the president negotiates tariff deal, tariff deal, tariff deal with the EU, with China, with Thailand, etc. Today, we saw that literally they're negotiating with Japan.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
Right. And so what you're really saying is as all these business leaders stew over their lost stock prices and privately negotiate with the president, They're not really interested in giving him what he wants and what he would need for these tariffs to do the very thing they're supposed to do, which is to bring more manufacturing back to the U.S.
The Daily
How Trump Wiped Out $10 Trillion in Wealth in 3 Days
That's a pretty messy reality of this dynamic right now.
The Daily
The Year in Wisdom
Hey, it's Michael. For our final episode of 2024, guest host Melissa Kirsch is back, talking with some of our Times colleagues about the year's best advice for living well. I think this one's really special. Take a listen.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. As President Trump set out to systematically eliminate or intimidate those who stand in his way, from inspectors general to judges to law firms, the news media loomed as one of his most stubborn obstacles. Or so it seemed. Today,
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Right. Just to say, Jim, by my informal math, if you take X and you add in Joe Rogan alone, you are looking at... An audience of, what, 70, 80 million?
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
But most importantly, her. Right. That we will potentially... Recruit someone to run against you in a Republican primary in Iowa and make sure that you are no longer a member of the United States Senate. This will cost you your seat.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
In other words, Kirk has effectuated the change in vote that Hegseth needs from Joni Ernst to become the next Secretary of Defense. And what you're describing is a very new form of not just cheerleading and not just supporting, but active... media coordination with enforcement of the president's agenda. Exactly.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
So to go back to Nixon for just a moment, what he wanted, by your account, most, was to somehow get around journalists like Walter Cronkite, who he was so frustrated with, and so frustrated that he couldn't get around. With Trump... That dynamic has been kind of inverted, right? Trump doesn't have to go around the mainstream media.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
This new Trumposphere in the media is already working with him and for him. And in that sense, Trump doesn't even need the mainstream media.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
And importantly, they can back that claim up with their numbers, with their audience.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
We'll be right back. Jim, as we turn to Trump's efforts to try to break the back of the traditional mainstream media, I think we have to ask the very simple question of why this remains a priority of his if he has the enormous influence in this new Trump adjacent media you just described. He doesn't, in some sense, need, it would seem, the mainstream media.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
The mainstream media has significant economic problems we've talked about for years on this show with you. And trust in the mainstream media, I believe, is at an all-time low. So why is Trump so determined to try to cripple it? Right.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Just the way Cronkite was to Nixon. Exactly. So with that in mind, how is the president in this second run at being president attempting to go after and maybe even destroy the mainstream media?
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Over this edit of this interview with Kamala Harris.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Right. And we should say, I think it's during this process of CBS participating in this FCC investigation that we all finally get a look at the original transcript and the editing. And basically, we all learn simultaneously that there's nothing to see here. This is a very natural editing process. There was no effort to protect Kamala Harris.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Right. And the reason this would seem to matter, back to this question of how is Trump trying to break the back of the news media, is that he seems to be— pretty effectively transforming the regulatory body that oversees especially TV news and turning it into this pretty invasive weapon that can be wielded against the major news outlets and presumably have a chilling effect. If you're CBS's
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
60 Minutes or anything else inside CBS or if you're any of the shows at NBC, you're thinking to yourselves, we have to be really careful about how we cover Donald Trump because if we get crosswise with him, then the FCC might come after us.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Right, and even if he's only musing at this point, this once again adds to the chilling effect we've seen in TV news, but also I think we should add in print, where we've seen the owners of the LA Times and the Washington Post block their editorial boards from endorsing Kamala Harris as both plan to.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
It's been widely noted in the case of the Washington Post that its owner, Jeff Bezos, has a lot of government contracts before Trump And Trump has threatened his government contracts in the past. So we have a clear sense now of how Trump is using both the courts and the power of the federal government against the media.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Excluded, basically, from access to things like an Oval Office meeting between Trump and the leader of a foreign country.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
A pretty vivid example of what a new pool looks and sounds like, it kind of looks like Thank you.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
So in the end, Richard Nixon's relationship with the media is he's furious with it, wants to weaken it, wants to stop it, can't, and the media quite literally conquers him.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
my colleague Jim Rutenberg, on how Trump is both circumventing and undermining the fourth estate in a way no president before him ever has. It's Tuesday, March 25th. Jim, we are talking today about the state of the news media under President Trump in his second term.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
So talk to us about the mechanics of how Trump is Doing what Nixon couldn't. Realizing Nixon's fantasy of a relationship with the media. Starting with Trump's ability, as you just said, to go around this monolithic media.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
I think it's worth just describing this. If you open up X, what used to be Twitter, under Elon Musk, and now in the era of Donald Trump, you experience... something very different than what you did a couple of years ago.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
I mean, I could open mine and show you this, but essentially, whether it's Elon Musk himself coming on to praise President Trump or a bunch of conservative accounts I had never followed suddenly are very prominent on my feed. I used to just follow a bunch of journalists and use it for informational purposes. But very much it now feels like a daily megaphone for Trump and the entire MAGA movement.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
In my experience, radically the same for you.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
Right. And it just seems important to note that suddenly one of the most important, widely used social media platforms in the country, if not the world, is is being managed for the president.
The Daily
Nixon Dreamed of Breaking the Media. Trump Is Doing It.
And when we brought this subject to you, a student of the media for— Many—I'm not going to say how many— We don't talk in decades in my household. We don't talk in decades. Many years. Yep. Former media columnist here at The Times. You're writing a book about the news media. When we brought this subject to you, you kept pointing us to Richard Nixon. I did. Former President Nixon. Why?
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
After the break, Jonathan Swan on what Trump actually did on day one. We'll be right back. Jonathan, I want you to pick up with the second half of Donald Trump's day, when he's suddenly endowed with the full powers of the presidency. What does he do with that power?
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
So talk us through some of the specific orders that really stand out.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Now he's taking it out. Reversing the reversal.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
The president is basically ordering every executive agency to go dig up potentially incriminating evidence that could be used against the outgoing administration and its personnel.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
On Monday, in the culmination of an extraordinary political comeback.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Right, because it could become a tool of that retribution. Pretty blatantly, yes. I think we have to end, and end quite meaningfully, with something that wasn't an executive order per se, but flowed from the executive pen, which was President Trump's pardons.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
I, Donald John Trump, do solemnly swear. Donald Trump was officially sworn in as President of the United States for a second time. Just four years after being voted out of office and being impeached and later criminally charged for trying to overturn that result.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
It's quite possible that the history books will look back on this mass pardoning as the defining act of this first day of Trump's presidency. And I think it arguably speaks to something that our colleague Peter Baker told us when we asked him to analyze Trump's inaugural speech.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
And he talked about just how much Trump is, at this moment, telling the story of America in relation to himself and kind of fusing man and country in the way he talks. And now he's pardoning people who the justice system charged, in many cases found guilty of serious, some cases violent crimes. He would argue because a weaponized justice system mistreated them.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
But by many people's lights, what he's really saying is their crimes don't matter. And this brings me back to what Peter said. Their crimes don't matter because they were done in his name.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
On Monday evening, the families and friends of January 6th rioters celebrated Trump's pardons outside a jail in Washington, where several convicted rioters remain imprisoned.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
In some cases, Trump's pardons resulted in the immediate release of rioters. A spokesperson for Enrique Tarrio, a former leader of the Proud Boys who was sentenced to 22 years in prison for his role in the assault on the Capitol, said that Tarrio had walked out of a federal prison in Louisiana on Monday afternoon as a free man. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
In his final act as president, Joe Biden issued a wave of preemptive pardons to those who fear that President Trump will prosecute them over the next four years. The pardons were given to members of Biden's own family, including his brothers. Every member of the congressional committee that investigated January 6th, including its vice chairwoman, Liz Cheney,
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
and the government's lead scientist during the COVID pandemic, Dr. Anthony Fauci. In a statement, Biden said that while he believes in the justice system, quote, these are exceptional circumstances. Following Trump's swearing-in ceremony, Biden boarded a military plane bound for California, where he was expected to begin a vacation as a private citizen and a former president.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
My colleague, Peter Baker, on the message Trump sent in his inaugural address. And Jonathan Swan on the actions Trump took during his first hours in office. It's Tuesday, January 21st. Peter, thank you for coming in the studio. It's nice to be here with you in person. I don't think I've ever done this in person with you. I don't think I've ever done this in person with you either.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Today's episode was produced by Claire Tennesketter, Aastha Chaturvedi, and Will Reed. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Mark George, contains original music by Dan Powell, Mary Lozano, and Sophia Landman, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. Special thanks to Afim Shapiro. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Aren't you glad you're here? Yes. You're here for a day of history. It is.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Exactly. Because I got to talk to you in person. Peter, set the scene for us inside the Capitol Rotunda as Donald Trump prepares to deliver this inaugural speech.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
So describe the speech itself once Trump begins to deliver it.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Just explain that for those who may not remember the reference to the first inaugural.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Double socked, thermal underweared, two hats, because we're going to spend a lot of this day outside. There it is. Yeah, oh, that's a beautiful view. We're standing about a football field and a half away from the US Capitol. I am staring at the dome. And because it is so bone-chillingly cold, the inauguration, which is normally held outside, facing the National Mall,
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
What this speech did not contain was an overture to those who didn't support him. We think of inaugural speeches as almost dutifully containing language that says, to those who didn't vote for me, I offer you this message. Exactly. That was not in this speech.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Which is, of course, rolling back a very specific President Biden policy. Exactly.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Within that list, Peter, of things that Trump says he wants to do that made this feel State of the Union-ish, as you said, what struck me was how much it strayed from Trump's traditional isolationism, right? It was expansionist, right?
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
This has been moved inside the Capitol, in the rotunda, which we're looking at. And at this very moment, President-elect Trump and President Biden are at the White House. They're having tea. They're going to come in a motorcade together to the Capitol. And we're looking at what we think is the exact spot they're going to arrive. And it's very, very heavily fortified.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
The implication being perhaps by force.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
He's going to plant a U.S. flag, he claimed, on Mars, which is about as ambitious an expansion vision as I think any president has ever had.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
So taken all together, how do you think we should understand this speech as a whole and
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
In that sense, this did not feel... simply like a speech articulating a restoration, because that would suggest I'm back just like I was before. What it sounds like he's saying is, I am back, I am better prepared, and I am capable now of transcending what my first presidency was. And as you said earlier, Peter, it is about me. And this term will be big and ambitious because I am.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
And the country in his telling is kind of him, and he is the country. And they are so fused in this speech that it's hard to imagine him tolerating the country not meeting his expectations because he and his expectations of the country, they're all so bound up.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
We're surrounded by these tall metal gates. There are dozens of police officers.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
So it is around 9.30 a.m. on Inauguration Day, and we are headed to the Capitol. And as you can perhaps hear through the microphone... Hopefully not if I do my job well. It is really, really windy and very cold, so we are layered to the hilt. like five layers.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
So now that Donald Trump has been sworn in and delivered his inaugural address, we wanted to head out into the streets of downtown Washington where thousands of his supporters are milling around to understand how they are feeling now that it is official that he is president again.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
Where did you guys come from?
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
And how are you feeling right now, like in a word, now that it's official that he's president again?
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
What's the most important thing you want to see him get done? Maybe in the next few hours through executive orders, but definitely like in the next couple of days or weeks.
The Daily
Pardons and Populism: Trump’s First Day Back in the White House
This is the motorcade. It's the longest motorcade I've ever seen. Dozens and dozens of vehicles. And it is working its way to the eastern gate of the Capitol to deposit the two presidents inside the building for the inauguration. And Donald Trump is going to be sworn in as the 47th president of the United States. From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. After engaging in a campaign of retribution against his enemies within the federal government, President Trump is now turning to those outside of it. Today. my colleague Mike Schmidt, on what that retribution has looked like for a single law firm and the impact that it's had on the entire legal profession. It's Tuesday, March 18th.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And she issues a temporary restraining order, essentially barring major portions of the executive order from being enforced.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Basically, she hands Perkins Coie a victory against President Trump.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Correct, in the judicial sense. But the damage has probably already been done to Perkins Coie. If you're one of Perkins Coie's clients, you know that this firm has a target on its back. Even if the Supreme Court someday says, no, Donald Trump, you did not have the power to do that to Perkins Coie, will it still have its clients? Will the clients still have hung around for this? Right.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
You were right. Frame it. Yeah, look, I was concentrated on how he was going to use the criminal powers of the Justice Department to go after his enemies. But he has actually been more creative and audacious and faster, frankly, than I ever thought he'd be.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
By the time the courts sort this all out, Perkins Coie may effectively be gone. And that's kind of the point for Trump and what is so ultimately powerful about what he has done here. Yes, he's achieved an extraordinary level of retribution against this one firm. But by making an example out of Perkins Coie, he's done much more than that because he has told the entire world
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
community of big law firms in the country that what happened to Perkins Coie is exactly what awaits them if they cross him or if they upset him. And what awaits them, if they take that risk, is destruction.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And that is an attack on the American justice system. Because in our country, the way that the legal system has taken hold over the past two and a half centuries is the idea that everyone is entitled to a vigorous defense. to a lawyer who is going to do everything in their power within the law and ethical guidelines to defend them.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
So what happens when, if you're a lawyer, you're afraid to represent different parties that are potentially on the other side of the government, that the government is going after? And what does that mean for those people who are potential targets of the government?
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
whether they work at USAID and they've been fired, whether they are an inspector general who was just let go without Congress's approval, theoretically in violation of the Constitution, whether you're a billion-dollar grant being held up by this president even though it's been approved by Congress.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
All those people, all those entities, in theory, are out there looking for lawyers to sue the Trump administration. Sure.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Or if you're one of the people that we've talked about on the show who Trump would like to have criminally prosecuted, if you're Liz Cheney or James Comey or Adam Schiff, what does that mean to them when the government comes for them and they need to find lawyers? And beyond all of that, the reason I think this really matters is
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
A cabinet full of people who were appointed because they have no desire to stop him. So that leaves the courts. But for the courts to hold Trump accountable, to stop Trump, they need for people to bring lawsuits and matters before them. And the people best equipped to do that are the big law firms in Washington. But if those firms are afraid to
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
that if they enter that fight, they could lose all of their business. Trump is then essentially taking one of his biggest adversaries off the playing field.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Right, essentially intimidating one of the last, maybe the last check and balance against his power in this moment.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
At retribution. Correct. And what in your mind is the best example of this unexpected, inventive retribution?
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
There are other lawyers who can bring these matters and that are skilled, but the ones with the most horsepower are potentially being sidelined. I've been reporting on this for the past week and a half, and I've learned that the leaders of these law firms have gone back and forth with each other about what to do. Should they file a friend of the court brief? Should they put out a joint statement?
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And despite all of those discussions, they are yet to take any collective action.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Suggesting to some real degree that they are intimidated, that they are scared that what he's doing is working.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Privately, they will all tell me how horrific they think this is. But publicly, they're saying very little.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Oh, Mike, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Over the past few days, President Trump expanded his attack on the legal industry by issuing a new executive order that bars another major law firm, Paul Weiss, from interacting with the federal government.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
In the order, Trump singled out a former Paul Weiss lawyer who had worked on a criminal case against him, calling the lawyer, quote, unethical. Like Perkins Coie, Paul Weiss is expected to sue the administration to block the order. We'll be right back.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
The way that he has targeted in the past week or so a law firm called Perkins Coie. With the stroke of his pen, he was able to essentially cripple the firm's ability to represent its clients. and create an existential threat for it that could put it out of business. But in doing that, Trump has done something even bigger and greater. He has fundamentally undermined the American legal system.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Israeli forces have launched large-scale aerial attacks across the Gaza Strip. The first major strikes on the territory since Israel's ceasefire with Hamas began roughly two months ago. Gaza's health ministry said that more than 400 people had been killed in the strikes, which raised the prospect of a return to all-out war.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And flight data reviewed by The New York Times suggests that the Trump administration ignored a ruling from a federal judge to turn around planes carrying 200 migrants to El Salvador and return them to U.S. soil.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
The flight data showed that none of the planes in question landed in El Salvador before the judge's order, and that one of them did not even leave American soil until after the judge's written order was posted online.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
During a court hearing on Monday, a lawyer for the Trump administration denied that the White House had violated the judge's ruling, stonewalled when the judge asked for detailed information about the flights and their timing, and said that the administration was not bound by the judge's oral directive to turn the planes around. In response, the judge called that claim, quote, a heck of a stretch.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
A very bold statement. So let's tell the story of what happened to this law firm from the beginning. Tell us about Perkins Coie and how it arrives at this existential crisis at the hands of the president.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
In 2016, Hillary Clinton's campaign hired Perkins Coie to be its chief outside law firm. In many ways, this made sense because Perkins Coie had one of the biggest, most robust practices that focused on representing Democrats.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Right. And we should say in Washington, that's kind of how things work. There are law firms known for doing work for Republicans. There are law firms known for doing work for Democrats.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Correct. So what happens is, during the campaign, the law firm took over paying for the work of a former British spy who was compiling a dossier on Trump's potential ties to Russia.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And by dossier, of course, you mean the dossier on Donald Trump that becomes a big factor in how we all think in that moment about Trump and Russia. Yeah.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Correct. The salacious compilation of unverified intelligence reports that laid out potential ties between Trump, his associates, and Russia. And the chief boogeyman in his eyes was a lawyer for Perkins Cooley, who was the top lawyer on the Clinton campaign, a guy named Mark Elias.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
who had not only established himself as the top lawyer for Democrats, but had played a role in helping to fund the dossier and represent the campaign.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
This is all unsubstantiated. And let's be clear for a second just about the dossier. Many of the allegations in it eventually are debunked. But for Trump, Perkins Coie's involvement in the dossier was just unforgivable. Because as he comes into office, he quickly faces this sprawling Justice Department special counsel investigation into potential ties between his campaign and Russia. Right.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And the dossier had nothing to do with why that investigation was opened. But Trump is able to conflate all of this and blames the dossier, and by extension, Mark Elias and Perkins Coie, for the investigation. Got it.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
He sees this, or at least he makes it out to be. I call it the Russian hoax. All part of a larger deep state conspiracy.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
He says big law, Democrats and the media have come together to unfairly tarnish him and delegitimize his election victory and by extension, his presidency.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Eventually, Trump does get the Justice Department to investigate whether there was this conspiracy. And a range of different things are looked at, including Perkins Coie's role. And ultimately, that investigation results in a Perkins Coie partner being indicted for misleading the FBI during the 2016 campaign about Trump's potential ties to Russia. And that partner goes on trial, but is acquitted.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
So the efforts to use the criminal powers of the Justice Department to go after Perkins Coie ultimately fall flat.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
So Trump is able to put this firm under some pretty intense legal scrutiny, but it doesn't deliver for him the victory over Perkins Coie that he clearly craves.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Correct. But his tangling and fighting with Perkins Coie is not over. He loses the 2020 election and he's going around the country trying to overturn the results. Right. And at many of the important junctures where Trump's lawyers go into court to try to have the results thrown out, those lawyers find themselves on the other side of Mark Elias. Oh, wow.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And Mark Elias and his practice at Perkins Coie just kicked Trump's butt. They win pretty much all of these court battles. They are celebrated by Democrats as a bulwark against Trump.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Mike, welcome back to the studio. Thank you for being here. It's good to be back. I want to give a little bit of context for this conversation Before Trump was elected, The Daily ran a series of episodes about what a second Trump term might look like on a range of fronts.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And by this point, Elias is all over the place as one of Trump's loudest critics.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
He essentially becomes synonymous with the Democratic resistance to Trump.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And so for Trump, there's no bigger foe or offender in terms of lawyers or law firms than Mark Elias and Perkins Coie.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Well, when he's out of office, Trump tries to sue Perkins Coie. And his lawyers try to make the argument, again, that Perkins Coie was somehow responsible for the investigation into the ties between his campaign and Russia.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Correct. And the lawsuit falls apart and is thrown out.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
So once again, Trump cannot knock this firm down. Not for want of trying. He just keeps failing.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Correct. And look, for Perkins Coie, this certainly was not a fun endeavor to be the target of Trump's ire. But they appear to breathe a sigh of relief. And then it gets even sort of better for them. Mark Elias actually leaves Perkins Coie. Hmm. So if you're Perkins Coie, you have survived the scrutiny and you've gotten rid of the lawyer who Trump hates the most. But then Trump wins reelection.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And it doesn't matter to Trump that Mark Elias is gone. He still wants revenge and just weeks into office, Trump goes after Perkins Coie in a way that I did not think he was capable of.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
So, Mike, once Trump returns to the White House, how does he go after Perkins Coie in a way that, as you just said, seemed unfathomable to you until he did it?
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
I told you that Perkins Coie did a lot of work for Democrats. But a major portion of the firm's day-to-day work is representing companies and contractors that have business or problems with the federal government. That's kind of their bread and butter way of making money. Got it. And to do that, and I know this may sound a little basic, you have to interact with the federal government.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And you guided us through how Trump might use the powers of the federal government to turn his threats of retribution into action. And your big finding was that we didn't have to look far to try to understand what retribution might look like in practice because Trump had already done it in his first term more than we had actually realized. And you documented that.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
You have to talk to the federal government. You have to go into the federal government to represent your client. Right.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Keeping that in mind, Trump, less than two weeks ago, in the Oval Office.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
that essentially bars Perkins Coie, specifically the firm itself, and its lawyers, from entering federal buildings and essentially interacting or dealing with the federal government.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Making it impossible to do the most basic function of their job.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Which is represent their clients before the federal government.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And on top of that, the executive order basically says that if you're a contractor and you have business with the government and you are represented or tied to Perkins Coie, you could lose your work with the government as well.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Wow. Basically, Trump, in this executive order, is putting Perkins Coie on a blacklist.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Correct. Simply, your tie to Perkins Coie means that your work for the government is majorly in question. So what happens is, is that almost immediately... The firm starts to hemorrhage clients, clients that they've had for decades. They start losing clients every single day in the aftermath of Trump signing this. And this is an existential threat for this law firm.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
So Perkins Coie itself has to go out and find a law firm so it can now fight this in court.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Can you just explain that? Because I think most people listening will assume that a law firm full of lawyers can fight its own fight.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Sure, Perkins Coie could have gone to court and fought this themselves. But because it was existential, they needed to walk in the door with the best representation they could get. Because if they fail to stop this, the firm will be toast. Right. But what happens is, in an example of how powerful this action from Trump was, not every law firm is jumping up to represent Perkins Coie.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
Because if they take on Perkins Coie, they could be the target of the next Trump executive order crippling them. Right. But then something sort of remarkable happens. In Washington is a law firm called Williams & Connolly. They are known as the toughest, nastiest, fiercest litigators in Washington. They almost take pride in fighting the government.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And amid all of these questions about whether anyone is going to step up and come to the defense of Perkins Coie, Williams and Connolly comes off the bench and says, we'll do it. We'll take the risk. Correct. So as quickly as they can, Williams and Connolly file suit against the Trump administration, asking a federal judge to jump in and stop the executive order.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And you said that it would only escalate if he were given a second term. And I think it's fair to say, so far, that you were right. Michael telling me I'm right.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
And there's a hearing before a judge in which Williams and Connolly faces off against the Justice Department. A Williamson Connolly lawyer lays out how what Trump has done is unconstitutional, unfair, and will destroy Perkins Coie.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
The Justice Department argues that the president of the United States has great leeway to do whatever he wants in this area and sees Perkins Coie as a potential national security threat.
The Daily
How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission
That this firm, because of its role in the 2016 campaign and creating this unfair cloud around Trump's ties to Russia, is a threat to the country. That this law firm is dangerous. Correct. Got it. And cannot be trusted to do business with the federal government. And how does the judge roll? She says it sends a chill down her spine. It is chilling to the legal profession.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Well, I think that brings us to the moment we're in, right, where President Trump is inaugurated, looks at this agency, and sees a lot of problems. I mean, is he right to think that there is some real cost-cutting to be done at USAID, putting aside the extent of it for just the moment?
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
A total dismantling and in a very real sense of shutting down of USAID.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
We'll be right back. Stephanie, I want you to talk about what it has looked like for this agency to be dissolved, to use your word, and specifically what that has looked like within the healthcare programs that you have spent all these years covering and that were designed to benefit the United States.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
The United States was doing so much of this kind of foreign aid work on this scale to begin with. So what is that backstory?
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And this testing, it sounds like it's funded by USAID.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Huh. That's how thoroughly the Trump administration wants this all to just come to a halt.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Well, USAID was founded by President John F. Kennedy, who created it with an executive order in 1961. And he did that. not out of some pure sense of charity, not out of a sense that there was famine in the world and America had a responsibility to address it.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
So the speed and the manner in which the Trump administration is dismantling USAID means that this medical work in South Africa that has been intended to strengthen ties between the U.S. and the people of South Africa— is now dissolved into the situation where they are probably angry and distrustful and fearful, this would seem to be the very opposite of the mission of USAID.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
So, Michael, if, as Stephanie Nolan just explained very clearly, USAID's work, generally speaking, advances America's interest overseas with a full awareness of its potential for bloatedness and wastefulness, but if it generally delivers still on Kennedy's vision of soft power, why, if you are Donald Trump and those around him, eliminate it?
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Well, Michael, Trump and the people around him have never had much interest in the use of soft power. Trump is a hard power kind of guy. He's not about winning friends and influencing people through favors, charity, sweet talk. He likes to apply muscle, pressure, threats. Some people say bullying. So this isn't really part of his playbook.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And a lot of this work is done in parts of the world about which he's spoken derisively, including Africa, where a huge amount of USAID work happens.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Right. Those were the countries that famously in his first term he referred to as shithole countries.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
That's right. So that's one thing. You know, another is that USAID was an easy target. Explain that. One of Trump's highest priorities, clearly, is really trying to break the bureaucracy, trying to purge federal workers, trying to dramatically shrink the size of the American government. And, you know, Americans, generally speaking, are very skeptical of foreign aid.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
So I think USAID has almost become a test case or a trial run for Trump's larger plans to smash apart the existing bureaucracy, purge thousands of federal workers and shrink the size of the federal government.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
What's interesting about the way you're framing this is that it's tempting to see what Trump is doing as first and foremost attacking, dismantling the idea of soft power. You're saying that may be incidental to dismantling the federal bureaucracy and that you can't really disentangle the two missions. But I'm still curious why...
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
based on your reporting, the president wants to dismantle USAID so quickly, so haphazardly, in a way that, frankly, pisses so many people across the world off.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Well, it's a little bit of a mystery, Michael, and I think that we've seen clues to what the answer might be. Look at comments that people around Trump have made for years, suggesting that you have to attack the bureaucracy almost mercilessly. You have to smash it, knock it down, and keep it down before it has a chance to get back up.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
To people around Trump, the bureaucracy is almost like a movie monster that keeps getting back up. You can't kill it. And I think that there's a sense that you have to deal a knockout blow quickly before the courts, members of Congress, the unions, all these other factors can come in and start fighting back. Now that doesn't mean that USAID has no defenses, The courts are already involved.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
We'll see what happens. But the strategy, I think, is speed kills.
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The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
The critique of this, I guess the critique of Trump's critique, is that this dismantling of this particular agency, this test case... has real impacts. And the impacts are that it may cede a huge amount of ground to our rivals in the world of soft power, especially China, which has shown enormous enthusiasm for soft power. And we've done so many episodes about this.
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The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
He was reacting to the Cold War competition with the Soviet Union that was underway at the time.
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The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
China wants to build your new highway. China wants to put solar panels on the streetlights so that they work at night in a country with not much electricity. China wants to do almost anything it can to deepen its ties to all these countries where USAID has been doing work.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
That's right. It's going to create a vacuum. And the risk here is that we have circled back to the context that led President Kennedy to create USAID in the early 1960s. John F. Kennedy believed that America was in a global competition for influence with another great power and that USAID was a way to win friends and influence people.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
We are now back at a time where even President Trump and his advisors say the defining national security threat for America is a global competition for power and influence with another great power. In this case, it's China.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Right, and to really bring it back to Kennedy, based on everything you're saying, Michael, We're not just, at this moment, getting rid of USAID and the concept of soft power through Trump's actions. We are replacing it, it would seem, with what you described as Trump's approach to hard power, tariffs, and threats. And that makes me wonder if we are resuming in that full circle way to
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
the version of American foreign policy that existed right before Kennedy created USAID. It's the ugly American approach to foreign policy, perhaps. And what is that going to mean for the US and the world?
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Well, that's exactly the concern, Michael. And no one is really providing good answers People in the Trump administration just kind of dismiss the idea that China or Russia are going to benefit from this. And their critics say they're taking a huge risk and we can't know how it's going to play out. But I think you're exactly right.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
I think the concern is that the ugly American will make a comeback and that will work to the benefit of our adversaries around the world.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And which he saw as a real threat to America's primacy and security. And, you know, the Soviet Union was presenting itself as the champion, particularly in the developing world, of countries that had been under colonialism for decades or more and, you know, felt that they had been treated badly by the West.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Well, Michael, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Among the findings was that nearly half a billion dollars worth of emergency food assistance, much of it supplied by U.S. farmers, is now at risk of spoiling inside ports and warehouses across the world. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
On Monday, the Trump administration told federal prosecutors to drop sweeping corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams, who has made repeated attempts to curry favor with the new president since his inauguration. Adams was indicted for allegedly abusing his power to obtain free travel and for accepting illegal campaign contributions.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
The order to drop those charges raises new questions about the independence of federal prosecutors under Trump and whether those close to the president will be given preferential treatment by his Department of Justice. And in his latest trade maneuver, Trump has imposed 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum imported from every U.S. trading partner,
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
The tariffs are likely to please domestic metalmakers, but significantly increase costs for U.S. companies that make items like cars, planes, and food packaging. And it could spark trade wars that may bring a variety of retaliatory tariffs against the U.S. Today's episode was produced by Nina Feldman and Rochelle Banja. It was edited by Mark George.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Contains original music by Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, and Diane Wong. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Mel Lansberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
As President Trump demolishes the government's biggest provider of foreign aid, the United States Agency for International Development, which he calls wasteful and misguided.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And Kennedy felt like America had to show that we are not exploiting the world around us.
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The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And ultimately, this is the most important part, choose us and not the Soviet Union.
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The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Right. Choose democracy and capitalism, not communism.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
That's right. And in Kennedy's mind, the United States had a real problem. The United States was at risk of losing this competition with the Soviet Union. Why? Well, one thing that motivated Kennedy, and it's such an interesting footnote to all of this, was a popular bestselling book at the time called The Ugly American. And
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
The ugly American essentially told the story that American diplomats in Asia were out of touch with the places where they were working. They didn't understand the local culture. They seemed like they had parachuted in from another world. And in some cases... Made more enemies than friends. And this was a big problem for the United States, that Americans were seen as ugly.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And Kennedy actually recommended that his associates and members of Congress read this book to understand this problem. And he felt like America had to stop presenting the ugly face and had to present a more benevolent, helpful face.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Fascinating. So USAID, in Kennedy's mind, is the antidote to the perception of the ugly American. It is the generous American, the altruistic American who shows up strategically. with humanitarian aid and makes your life, if you're overseas, skeptical of America, materially better.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
That's exactly right. USAID is building schools, building hospitals, providing people with clean drinking water, life-saving medicines, helping them find employment, developing local infrastructure, all kinds of things that help people in a fundamental day-to-day way have better lives in these countries. But part of what's happening as USAID does this work is you're gaining influence.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
You're getting to know government officials. You're getting to know people in the local population. So this kind of becomes the basis of what we know as soft power, which is distinct from hard power. That's military power. Soft power is influence and relationships. And a bipartisan consensus forms around the value of soft power as an instrument of American foreign policy going forward for decades.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And so Kennedy launches USAID, but year after year, presidents of both parties accept USAID as a central part of American foreign policy.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
I have to imagine, however, that when the U.S. wins the Cold War by the end of the 1980s, the early 1990s, that this poses something of a challenge to USAID's purpose.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
He's ending a 60-year bipartisan consensus about the best way to keep America safe from its enemies. Today, my colleagues, State Department reporter Michael Crowley and health reporter Stephanie Nolan, on the rise and fall of USAID and American soft power. It's Tuesday, February 11th. Michael, as we speak to you, USAID has basically been dismantled.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
It does. But at the same time, some pretty good new rationales emerge for the continuation of a robust USAID. Why? Because after 9-11, America realized that the Soviet communist ideology that threatened us had been replaced by a new ideology. It was a terrorist ideology. It was a radical fundamentalism that was emerging from parts of the world where USAID did a lot of work. And that terrorism
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
really flourished in countries where there was instability, weak civil society. When a state collapses entirely, that becomes a breeding ground for radicalism. And so there was a new value placed on American aid programs in countries that could maintain stability, try to help find jobs for people who might otherwise turn to radicalism,
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
All kinds of programs that were perceived as being part of the mission of combating worldwide terrorism. Right. But it's also during that period that we see some of USAID's real limitations and, frankly, some of the most wasteful projects that it's ever undertaken.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Well, there was one project in Afghanistan known as Promote that was meant to empower women in the country, give them workplace experience. It was originally budgeted at $280 million, and it was supposed to help 75,000 women get jobs, promotions, apprenticeships, internships. But an inspector general report that came out a few years ago found that only 55 women had been promoted to better jobs.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
That was the original goal. And the inspector general essentially said the whole thing had been a complete waste.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
So basically, a nearly $300 million program funded by us, the taxpayer, turned out to have been a boondoggle.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Yeah, basically down the tubes. So, look, you might cut them some slack for having been in a war zone. A lot of projects were tried by a lot of different parts of the U.S. government in Iraq and Afghanistan that just flopped. Even granting that, USAID has maintained strong bipartisan support for years and years. And the view of both parties is that
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
not every project is gonna work perfectly, not every dollar is going to give you an ideal return, but that at the end of the day, relative to the national budget, USAID does not spend that much money, and actually, overall, you get a good return on your dollar, and you're getting real value for American interests, and that USAID is important to continue and support, that it's really good for the United States of America.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Perhaps the clearest example of how USAID exerts American soft power is through the work it's done in public health. And to understand that, I spoke with my colleague, global health reporter Stephanie Nolan. Stephanie, how big a part of USAID's budget and work is healthcare, the subject you have spent so much of your career covering?
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Wow. So it's a really meaningful part of what this agency does around the world.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And in your global travels, which are many and varied, how frequently do you encounter a USAID program of one kind or another?
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The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
So let me be dense for just a moment, deliberately so. How do those two programs, which are clearly saving hundreds of thousands, in the case of the HIV program, millions of lives in places like Africa, how in the minds of USAID and the U.S. government do those, beyond the indisputable altruism that you're describing, advance American interest, as this program has always been envisioned?
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
Right. This is essentially President Kennedy's vision of USAID from the beginning, which we just talked about with Michael Crowley. This is the opposite of the imperialistic, ugly American image that Kennedy was trying to fight.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
A judge has paused elements of that dismantling, but the writing is very much on the wall. It's a shell of itself, so much so that its name has literally been removed from its headquarters in Washington. And I think a lot of us have the sense that this elimination of this agency is a very big deal, even if we don't entirely understand exactly how USAID worked and why it
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
That might sound kind of very pragmatic, but you're saying the reality is that when the United States does right by the people of Zambia by giving them HIV drugs and saving their lives, they happen to ensure the country's economic health persists in a way that way downstream benefits Americans and the American economy, which really does feel like the ultimate win-win version of foreign aid.
The Daily
The Demise of U.S.A.I.D. — and American Soft Power
And you're suggesting that that journey from being dependent on foreign aid to becoming a potential U.S. trading partner, that journey seems unimaginable if these countries can't surmount their overwhelming HIV and malaria problems to begin with, which is what the American assistance allowed them to do.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. On paper, today's election in Wisconsin is about whether Democrats or Republicans should control the state's highest court. In reality, it's become a referendum on Elon Musk, his agenda in Washington, and his willingness to flood American politics with his money.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
And it's a temperature-taking exercise. And we've had a few of them, even though this presidency is just a couple months old.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
So, Reid, how are the Democrats in Wisconsin responding to this onslaught? Because from what you have said here, it very much seems like this could potentially tip the race in the direction of shimmel, despite whatever organic Democratic anger is out there. It just seems like a whole lot to counter.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Mm-hmm. Reid, it seems like no matter which candidate wins this race today in Wisconsin, this is going to be a template for the next chapter of American politics, right? It's hard to imagine a world where Elon Musk doesn't apply these kinds of tactics to the midterm elections across the country in House and Senate races to try to preserve Republican majorities and defend Trump and Trumpism.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
And it's hard to imagine Democrats not trying to make these races about Musk and the oligarchy and the idea that a very small number of people really Elon Musk, have just outsized power over everything. The government, who is fired in that government, what agencies live or die, and how elections are conducted.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Reid, you could make the argument that all of this may end up being very clarifying for Democrats, despite all the branding problems the party has. Which is, if they end up running over and over again against a billionaire who's bankrolling the other side...
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
that the Democrats will have the makings of their own populist campaign message that the 99% of Americans who aren't billionaires need a voice against the 1% or so who are, and that there could be real long-term potency.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
And Musk may be decisive in that decision making.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Here's what else you need to know today. The stock market keeps rejecting President Trump's tariffs. On Monday, two of America's most closely watched stock indexes, the S&P 500 and Nasdaq, ended the first quarter of the year with their worst declines in nearly three years.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Economists say much of the blame lies with Trump's haphazard rollout of tariffs against many major trading partners and the threat of even more tariffs in the days to come. And Marine Le Pen, the current front-runner to become France's next leader, was found guilty of embezzlement on Monday and barred from running for office for the next five years.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
The verdict effectively blocks Le Pen, an anti-immigrant nationalist politician, from seeking the presidency in 2027 when French President Emmanuel Macron leaves office because of term limits At the moment, polls show Le Pen leads her nearest rival by about 10 points. Le Pen has vowed to appeal the ruling. Today's episode was produced by Muj Zaydi, Michael Simon Johnson, and Mary Wilson.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
It was edited by Michael Benoit and Liz O'Balin. Contains original music by Diane Wong, Dan Powell, and Rowan Emisto. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lanford of Wonder Week. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Right, because what you're describing are not swing seats, which could go either way, but what sound like pretty reliable Republican red seats. So Democrats flipping them, even in the context of a special election, which, as you said, is somewhat unusual by definition, seems meaningful.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
So even more evidence of what a galvanizing moment this is for Democrats, so much so that the president has asked a member of Congress who's supposed to be in his cabinet to stay in Congress for fear that one or both of these Republican-held House seats in Florida might, might fall to Democrats.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
So tell us more about that race and why it is that you have become so focused on it.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Today, my colleague Reed Epstein on the local election that everyone is watching. It's Tuesday, April 1st.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Right. It punches above its weight as far as state Supreme Courts go in the United States.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
So tell us about the candidates for this race today, for that judgeship.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Right. Not particularly nonpartisan, this race, it seems.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
So, Reid, why did Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, choose this race of all races to pour his money into right now? Well, Michael, there's a lot of theories.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Perfect. Reid, as we know, after every presidential election, the political cognoscenti... Is that how you say that word? I think that's how you say it. I think that's an only in journalism word. Okay.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Is the thinking that this lawsuit would eventually go to the Wisconsin Supreme Court?
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
And so far, what has Musk's money gone toward exactly? in Wisconsin for this race.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
The political class, the political world turns its attention to the first batch of special elections, these off-season races that happen when somebody retires or gets chosen to be in the president's cabinet and they leave a vacant seat. And we study these, as you know, for signs of how the voting public feels about the new president, direction of the country, and both parties.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Wait, wait, I just want to slow you down here. He's giving voters who sign a petition, not about this race, but about the generic idea that some judges go too far.
The Daily
Is Elon Musk Buying Today’s Election in Wisconsin?
Hmm. It's kind of a backdoor, I mean, I'm going to use this word carefully, a backdoor bribe to a voter? I mean, how else to think about that?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. For years, even as fentanyl killed Americans at an astonishing rate, Mexico has claimed that it was doing everything it could to crack down on its production. This week, President Trump began using punishing new tariffs to test that claim.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
It very much looks like Trump has shocked the Mexican law enforcement system into action, and in so doing, seemed to expose that the Mexican government was capable of doing a lot more than it had been.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Of all the things Trump did, I'm curious which, in your reporting, stands out as ultimately being the most effective as we think about just how aggressive Mexico's government has been. I'm going to guess it's the threat of tariffs, but I'm curious what you found.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
I mean, what's fascinating about what you're saying is that it seems to confirm to a degree that. the Donald Trump thesis, which we've talked about a fair amount on this show with some of our colleagues, that tariffs are a kind of everything, every issue tool, potentially. But what's tricky is the question of whether they're stronger as a threat or as a reality.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And as we're talking to you, the United States has made the threat of tariffs against Mexico a reality. We don't know how long it's going to last, but the U.S. has put into place tariffs on Mexico and They could be rolled back in the coming hours or days.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
But that makes me wonder if Trump is happy with what Mexico has done so far or thinks they can go a lot further when it comes to cracking down on fentanyl. How do you see it and how do the leaders in Mexico see it?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Right. So in theory, Trump's approach, as it gets more and more punitive, it may keep exposing all the things that Mexico hasn't done, could have done, arguably should have done for years to crack down on fentanyl, but hasn't, or it could end up exposing the limits of what Mexico can do about fentanyl
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
and the damage that the United States is willing to do to Mexico's economy in the pursuit of finding out just how much it can do about fentanyl.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Right, but of course the challenge is getting inside, I assume, the kind of places in Mexico that make fentanyl don't offer tours. So how did you even begin to try to get in one?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Right. Has the incentive for Mexico to pursue this crackdown gone away?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Mm-hmm. But no matter what happens, it does feel like the clear lesson from your reporting here, and it's a surprising one. And like you said, you were skeptical of it. I'll confess I was a little skeptical of it myself, is that tariffs as a tool of forcing a government like Mexico to crack down on a very deadly drug is effective.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Well, Natalie, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Late on Thursday morning, President Trump said he was suspending tariffs on most imports from Mexico for the next month. After a call with Mexico's president, Trump said, quote, we are working hard together on the border, both in terms of stopping illegal aliens from entering the United States and likewise stopping fentanyl.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Wednesday, the Supreme Court rejected President Trump's effort to freeze $2 billion in foreign aid owed to government contractors. It was a major blow to Trump's efforts to circumvent Congress in his pursuit of cost-cutting.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
The 5-4 rule, in which Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Amy Coney Barrett sided with the court's liberal justices, suggested that Trump's plans to remake the federal government will face skepticism from the high court.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
During a contentious hearing, House Republicans accused the Democratic mayors of New York, Denver, Boston, and Chicago of making their cities less safe by harboring criminal immigrants... and refusing to fully cooperate with the president's efforts to crack down on illegal immigration.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
In response, the mayors defended their policies, said that they were following federal immigration law, and told House Republicans that Congress itself had the power to make their cities safer, but so far had failed to do so.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Today's episode was produced by Caitlin O'Keefe, Claire Tenesketter, and Carlos Prieto, with help from Nina Feldman. It was edited by Lisa Chow and Lexi Diao, contains original music by Dan Powell and Pat McCusker, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Should you even try to make it into one of them? A separate question.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Today, my colleague, Mexico City Bureau Chief Natalie Kitchoeff, on the surprising result of Trump's strategy. It's Thursday, March 6th.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
So when you leave this lab, what are you thinking? What has this unlocked for you in your understanding of Mexico as this hub, as you said earlier, of fentanyl production?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Now, I guess what you're saying about the ease of production makes me wonder why it has to be done in Mexico. Why can't this same process occur in Texas or Brooklyn, for that matter?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Um, I don't know how to address you. It's so weird.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
So a key ingredient here that explains why Mexico is the Mexican government's inability slash unwillingness to truly take on and crack down on these cartels.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
How about we just do it normal-like? Okay. Yeah. Hey, Natalie. Hi, Michael. Natalie, tell us the story, the kind of improbable story, of how you ended up inside an illegal fentanyl lab in Mexico.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Right. Trump's argument throughout the campaign and once he's elected is basically Mexico chooses this situation and it can do a heck of a lot more.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And I wonder, based on this lab you saw and based on all the reporting you have done, what you made of Trump's actions as they were unfurling, and if you thought it stood any real chance of changing the fentanyl realities on the ground in Mexico.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
So Natalie, when you went back to Sinaloa to try to assess whether anything had changed post Trump's inauguration, what did you find?
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Then... There's a contrasting view articulated by Democratic Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut who says, right now, you have to swing at every pitch. He said, Trump floods the zone every hour of every day. We have to do the same thing. So those seem like the two contrasting arguments on tactics.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And I want you all to help me understand the basis for both of those and also which one seems to be prevailing in the first two weeks or so of the Trump presidency.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And you're watching that debate play out in Congress, which you cover really closely and where it would seem Democrats have one of their major levers of power, which is the bully pulpit of Congress opposing cabinet nominees from the president. if they want to, or deciding that the right move in this moment is to work with Trump on issues like immigration. So what are you seeing?
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Yes, you can. That was great. And Shane. Hello. Yep, sorry, Reid.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Oh, yes. Well, Shane, thank you for being here with me in the New York studio. All three of you have been very closely covering the story of the Democratic Party in this moment. And you know this well. Whenever a party loses a presidential election, we speak of it wandering through the wilderness.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
I want to talk for just a moment about the message that these Democrats, now determined to swing at more pitches, are articulating. This week, we saw them try to pick their first real foil. And as you're starting to hint at, folks here, it wasn't as much Trump as it was Elon Musk.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And in some of the protests that Democratic lawmakers held across Washington over the past few days, they decided to train their fury at him. Let me just play a clip from somebody whose name has come up in this conversation, Senator Chris Murphy.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Why approach this torrent of activity from the White House through the person of Elon Musk, Shane? And does that seem effective?
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Right. You mentioned USAID. Reid, when I think of USAID and Democratic lawmakers standing in front of it and saying that something is wrong when the Trump administration cuts spending to the United States Agency for International Development, it makes me wonder if...
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
the Democrats do need to resolve that debate over what went wrong in this last election because foreign aid, which is what USAID is most known for, is not a top priority for voters. And so it looked to some like the party was doing what it did over the past few years and not in a good way. It was speaking to its progressive base, defending the status quo on foreign aid.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
When a party loses a presidential race and both chambers of Congress, we speak of that party as being in an especially dark wilderness. And when you lose the presidency and both chambers of Congress and the new president of the opposing party takes 300 executive actions that undo everything your party has ever stood for, I don't really know that there is a phrase for it. Do you have one in mind?
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
That is perhaps how you get the... activists left motivated, but those images circulate across the country, and do they not do the party any favors?
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Mm-hmm. I want to now turn to something that was happening in Washington that I believe one of you raised a little bit earlier in this conversation that seems extremely well-timed. The Democratic National Committee met just outside Washington to make what feels like one of the most important big decisions about the party's identity since the election.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And it feels like that would be very informed by the conversation we're having here. It was going to choose its next chairperson. My question to you, Reid and Shane, because I know you were both there, was did it reveal anything about these debates we've been discussing here about nature of the problem, nature of the solution for Democrats? The short answer is no, it did not.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
It feels like the question of the party's identity so clearly not being resolved in this moment in a major way is likely to be resolved most clearly when the party begins to coalesce around a future leader. I wonder how much we're getting a feel for who the party's next avatar might be in the crucible of this Trump blitzkrieg moment.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Annie, what are you seeing? Because it seems like the loudest voices are in Congress right now, even if the next Democratic nominee might not be someone in Congress.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
I have one final question. Does the future of the Democratic Party at this moment mean or even require former Vice President Kamala Harris standing up and saying, it's not me?
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
All right. Well, with that incredible, obscure, helpful bit of historical context, I'd like to thank the three of you, Annie, Reed, Shane. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
President Trump signed an executive order seeking to ban transgender women and girls from participating in women's sports by denying federal funding to any schools that allow it.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And... The White House walked back Trump's surprise proposal to seize control of Gaza and permanently relocate the two million Palestinians who live there after it was forcefully rejected by the Arab world.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Instead, White House officials, including Secretary of State Marco Rubio, reframed Trump's offer as a plan for the U.S. to merely oversee Gaza's reconstruction and insisted that he would not commit U.S. troops to the territory, as his original plan seemed to require.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Even more effed than the previous effed. OK, so I want to start by talking about the kind of soul searching that the Democratic Party is doing and whether that soul searching has started to arrive at any kind of consensus about what exactly the party's problems are. are and how systemic and deep those problems are. From a distance, it doesn't look like there's a consensus.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
At the White House, the president showed up for the swearing-in ceremony of his new attorney general, Pam Bondi, and suggested that in her role as the nation's top law enforcement official and leader of the Justice Department, traditionally a nonpartisan job, Bondi would take a dim view of Democrats.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Anna Foley, Diana Nguyen, and Olivia Nat. It was edited by Patricia Willans and Lexi Diao, contains original music by Diane Wong, Marian Lozano, and Roe Nymisto, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And it sounds like Shane's describing a split between those who think, look, the math, look at the House. It's tactical. Our message couldn't have been that bad if we almost retained control of the House of Representatives.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
But I also think it's important to note that we're not completely in the wilderness, right? This was not some election where Trump won by 20 points. It was a close election.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Reid, I want to put something to you since both Shane and Annie have been giving voice to the let's not freak out Democratic point of view in this moment. I want you to contemplate the case for a freak out, okay? This was something written by one of the three of you, and here's what it says. Democrats who share the bleak outlook— for their future.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
See statistical signs of the party's decline everywhere. Blue states are ceding population to red states. Voter registration figures are mostly headed in the wrong direction for the Democrats. More Americans are identifying with the GOP than with Democrats. And Democrats lost ground in this last election among core constituencies including lower income, Latino, and younger voters.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
as President Trump swept every battleground state. That's the case for freaking out. And Shane, that was your sentence, your paragraph. It seems like a pretty strong case for freaking out if you're the Democratic Party.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
I mean, let's talk about that point you're raising, the origins of the Democrats' problems. If you're inclined to think that this is an existential crisis moment for the party, it makes sense to ask the question, what exactly went wrong? Reid, you're pointing to
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
the observation that Biden's weaknesses as a candidate and party leaders' decision to not ask him to step aside earlier might be a factor. But when we ask the question of what went wrong, it seems like that might be a very narrow reading of things. And Shane, I want to ask you about something that Congressman Pat Ryan from upstate New York says about the Democratic Party.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
He's not talking about whether Joe Biden stayed in the race too long and Democrats, you know, weren't eyes wide open about his health and his various problems. He says that the Democratic brand, overall, is so weak at this point that the only way Democrats like him can win is by running against the Democratic brand, which, of course, is not a great strategy if you're a Democrat.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
So I want to broaden the conversation to what someone like a Congressman Pat Ryan says are deeper problems with the party's identity, ideology, and its relationship to the voters.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. today, how the Democratic Party is navigating the dominance of President Trump, and reckoning with the reality that more and more voters are souring on its message. I spoke with three of my colleagues, politics reporters Shane Goldmacher and Reid Epstein, and congressional correspondent Annie Carney. It's Thursday, February 6th.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And Shane, I want to bring that up with you because I think one of the questions that a proper soul-searching exercise might lead to among Democrats is the idea that the Democratic Party – and I want your feedback on this based on your reporting – has allowed its coalition, the many fragments of it, activists especially, to push the entire party and its brand toward a less recognizable place than the Democratic Party of 15 or 20 years ago.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
A party that, for example, speaks – of undocumented immigrants as not requiring any level of criminal punishment or justice if they cross the border illegally, which Kamala Harris said in 2020 as a Democratic candidate, talks about diversity as a vital goal, sometimes in ways that...
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
talks about diversity and DEI as hugely important to the identity of the party in the country, endorses things like medical interventions for trans youth. I'm generalizing here, but a party that talks about those things in that ways, is it overly beholden not to a broad cross-section of the electorate, but to the loudest voices in its coalition?
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
What you're pointing to read is what I think explains why the party can't quite make up its mind as it does this soul-searching and thinking about the nature of its problems about whether this is a moment for revolution or caution because it looks at what happened in those congressional races and says, we didn't do horribly.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And it looks at these issues sometimes in isolation and says they stand up okay on their own. So maybe we're not a party in crisis. And so that debate has not been resolved. And we're going to go take a break.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
And when we come back, we're going to talk about the next important debate that flows very naturally from this one, which is what should the party's tactics be in this moment, especially if it hasn't made up its mind about its soul-searching. So we'll be right back. Okay, welcome back. Annie, Reid, Shane.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
Where we left off was with a Democratic Party that has not firmly established the nature of the problem, which in theory makes it pretty hard to come up with a set of tactics for how to conduct itself. But the president and his blitz of activity has required the party to make a set of decisions about how to respond. So I want to talk about that. It feels like the party is having a—
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
split personality on the question of whether to be a party of protest in this moment or a party of waiting and seeing what the country's reaction to Trump will be. So I want to first play a clip from Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, the minority leader in the House, who is taking the don't overreact approach. Let me just play that for you guys.
The Daily
Where Are the Democrats?
So, friends, welcome to The Roundtable. Reid and Annie, thank you for making the trek over to the Washington studio. Good to have you. Hi, Michael.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. For the past three decades, when the U.S. government has released documents related to the assassination of John F. Kennedy, an overriding goal has been to dispel conspiracy theories. But as my colleague Julian Barnes explains, President Trump's motivation for releasing the latest batch is far more complicated.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
What else do we learn from these unredacted documents about the CIA?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
So what these removed redactions are really showing us is is just a deeper version of what we had already understood, which is just how out of control the CIA was in this period, rather than these documents telling us anything really new or revelatory related to the conspiracy theories around Kennedy's death.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
So in theory, a revelation like the one you just described of the CIA reaching into the phone lines of journalists in the 1960s could further fuel that unsubstantiated theory that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. subscribes to, that the CIA is trying to control journalists.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
So those putting out these docs now... They are not interested in dispelling them as their forefathers in disclosures like this have. They're putting them up because they're believers in conspiracy theories. Do you think it's fair to put President Trump in that category?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
Well, that gets to a question that I think is going to be on a lot of people's minds as they get to this point in the conversation, which is, are all the revelations that we have just been discussing, especially around the CIA, in any way strengthening the one conspiracy theory that Trump subscribes to the most still about a deep state?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
Or is the reality that what's in these documents is so old that it's quite irrelevant to today's debate over government and the deep state that Trump talks about? Now, how should we think about that?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
So in that sense, the foundational conspiracy theory that the intelligence community played a role in Kennedy's death and that the government spends all this time releasing documents to dispel ends up seeding newer, different conspiracy theories, all of which seems to tell us that transparency or efforts at transparency when it comes to something like the Kennedy assassination, it didn't really exist.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
solve conspiracy theories, it helped them, I think the word you used was blossom, which isn't necessarily the best case for transparency. Does that mean we just have to accept that the more you release, the more conspiracy theories there will be? That's just the reality of it?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
Well, Julian, thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. We'll be right back.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
On Wednesday, a growing number of congressional Democrats called on Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth to resign or be fired after it emerged that texts he inadvertently shared with a journalist over a commercial messaging platform contained detailed information about an upcoming U.S. military attack.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
The texts from Hegseth, which were released by the journalists who received them, cast doubt on claims by the officials involved in the text chain that nothing in their messages was classified.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
Asked about Hegseth's future during a news conference at the White House, President Trump defended him and called the growing political furor over the texts another coordinated attack against his administration. And President Trump said he would impose a 25% tariff on all cars and certain car parts that are imported into the United States starting next week.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
In doing so, Trump would make good on a promise long feared by automakers across the world. The tariffs could encourage carmakers to open up more U.S. factories but will disrupt supply chains and most likely result in significantly higher car prices for American consumers. Today's episode was produced by Olivia Nat, Mary Wilson, and Sydney Harper.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
Suffice it to say, young Julian Barnes and now modern-day Julian Barnes sounds very primed for the moment just a few days ago when the United States government, at the direction of President Trump, releases thousands and thousands of pages of these super-secret documents related to the JFK assassination. So what...
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
given that history, was your first impression when you finally had a chance to really make sense of them?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
Well, we're going to get to that and get to how the documents that were just released may or may not reinforce that concept. But just to start, can you tell us the backstory behind this document release? As you've hinted at, There have been releases of JFK documents throughout the last half century or so. So where did these specific documents come from? What's that story?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
Today, what we learned from those new documents and why they may actually fuel even more conspiratorial thinking. It's Thursday, March 27th. Julian, you're the intelligence reporter for The Times. So I'm curious what your relationship has been to arguably the biggest and most enduring conspiracy theory about the agency you cover.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
So just explain how we get from the Trump who is compliant with the CIA and agreeing to all the redactions... to the Trump of this past week or so, who oversees the release of this final batch with no redactions? And I'm guessing part of the answer is the extraordinary souring of Trump's relationship with the intelligence community since his first term.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
And, of course, he's kind of pushing on an open door in Trump, given his relationship with the intel community.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
So, Julian, tell us what we learn when these redacted boxes are wiped away and everything that had been previously hidden in these JFK documents suddenly is revealed.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
Huh. Who had worked on previous investigations?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
So... When it comes to the central question we have been exploring here of what new information is in these formally redacted spaces and these documents, beyond Social Security numbers, what did you find?
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
So people you would think are working for the State Department in a diplomatic capacity are actually just spies for the CIA. Yeah.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
What seems fascinating about this, not only is that it reveals the reach of the CIA within what we think of as the civilian corners of our government, like the State Department, but it reminds me of what you had said earlier in our conversation about the tension between Kennedy and the CIA.
The Daily
J.F.K., the C.I.A. and the Original ‘Deep State’
That would seem to fuel the idea that in this period, there is a conflict between the spy agency and the president.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. During his decades-long path to becoming America's highest-ranking military officer, General Charles Q. Brown won the crucial support of President Trump. Until that was, Brown publicly talked about the one subject that is now taboo in Trump's government —
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Right. And so in their mind, what could better encapsulate the military going woke than having the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, after George Floyd's death, having recorded a video talking about race?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
So, Helene, once Donald Trump wins the presidency back, and once Pete Hegseth, his nominee for Secretary of Defense, is confirmed, is the thinking, given everything you have just laid out here, that C.Q. Brown now has a target on his back?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
So I think that brings us up pretty much to the present and to this Friday Night Massacre that ends with C.Q. Brown being terminated as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I'm curious what the official explanation becomes here. for why the president is getting rid of him in this role?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
I'm curious who President Trump puts forward to replace Brown and how, in the president's mind and in the mind of the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, that person's on the right side of all of this if it turns out C.Q. Brown is on the wrong side.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Got it. So he basically denies that this happened. Yes. So this is important. After firing C.Q. Brown for being somebody who, to the president, we understand, represents a woke figure. And it seems in Hegseth's telling, maybe someone who was elevated more for his race than merit. There's no evidence of that, but that appears to be the perception from Hegseth.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Trump and Hegseth have replaced him with somebody who has a lower rank and less achievement within the military, but whose chief virtue seems to be, in Trump's telling, unquestioning explicit loyalty and fondness for Trump. That would be correct. And that, of course, raises a lot of questions. I mean, the first is whether loyalty is now being prized over merit.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
And to the degree that that's the case, we now have two of the most powerful people in the military chain of command, Hegseth, who has no traditional credentials to run the Defense Department, but Trump has asked him to do so. Now we have Kaine, who has many of the credentials, but not the credentials of the last person to be chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
What they have in common is a very strong, in Trump's mind, loyalty to the president. What does that start to tell us about the state of our armed forces and their relationship to the president?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
So what explained that, as you have just described it, highly unusual decision to fire Brown?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
And of course, the other very pointed, I think, but essential question that this whole episode raises is what kind of a black leader is allowed in the senior levels of Trump's government? I mean, what can be your relationship to race, to George Floyd, to questions of diversity if you want to be somebody who succeeds in Trump's administration?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
I mean, what have we learned from the experience of C.Q. Brown?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
During a confirmation hearing on Wednesday, three of President Trump's choices to help run the Justice Department clashed with Democratic senators about whether the White House can simply ignore some court orders, a possibility that many legal scholars see as the start of a constitutional crisis.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Under questioning, the lawyers, including Aaron Reiter, Trump's choice to run the Justice Department's Office of Legal Policy, suggested that Trump could, in fact, ignore the court's rulings.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
The issue has taken on growing urgency as Trump attempts to expand his power and federal courts repeatedly rule that his actions are illegal. Today's episode was produced by Shannon Lin and Stella Tan. It was edited by Liz O'Balin with help from Paige Cowan. Contains original music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Diane Wong. And was engineered by Chris Wood.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderland. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Hmm. So in some sense, this is a story you're saying about loyalty and race. Yeah. Well, tell us that story of who C.Q. Brown is is in the kind of span of his career and how he and Trump's mind mishandles the question of race in a way that feels to Trump somehow disloyal.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Today, Pentagon correspondent Helene Cooper on what got Brown fired and why it has so thoroughly rocked the military. It's Thursday, February 27th. Well, Helene, thank you for coming into the studio and thank you for making time for us.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
And just explain what that means and why it's a promotion.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
So Trump very much facilitates C.Q. Brown's rise to pretty much the heights of the U.S. military.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Aline, can you tell us about what is being described as the Friday night massacre inside the Pentagon that unfolded a few days ago? And why, even in the context of President Trump firing so many people across so many federal agencies, this felt different and important and worth singling out, which is, of course, what we're doing here in our conversation with you today.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
And what is the reaction to this video within the military?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Well, what's the answer? How does then President Trump react to this?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
We'll be right back. Helene, just before the break, you suggested that C.Q. Brown, whether he intended to or not, ends up seeming in alliance with Trump's enemies within the military. But of course, at this moment in our chronology, Trump is on his way to an electoral loss to Joe Biden. And so he's going to leave the picture for several years. So pick the story up here for C.Q. Brown.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
What happens when Joe Biden becomes president?
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
Like literally ready to fight a war this evening.
The Daily
He Was America’s Highest-Ranking Military Officer. Then Came the War on D.E.I.
And it seems worth noting, and I don't know whether this has to do with the fact that Joe Biden is now the president, that C.Q. Brown is finding a way to talk pretty openly, and it sounds like creatively, about diversity and about ensuring that it is celebrated within the military.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Five years ago, at the urging of federal officials, much of the United States locked down to stop the spread of COVID, a decision that over time polarized the country and changed the relationship between many Americans and their government.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Francis, do you think that the reality is that in the face of what felt terrifyingly like an existential threat to so much of our population, U.S. government officials, as aware as they must have been of all this skepticism you two have found, that they just didn't trust Americans enough to kind of really level with them from the start and say something like, look...
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
these interventions, they are our best guess about what's going to slow this down and save as many lives as possible and get us through this pandemic in the best shape that we possibly can. And to say, essentially, this is a large-scale experiment. And we have to be honest, it's going to involve all these trade-offs, economic, social, academic, psychological.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
It may hurt a lot of people in the name of saving an unknown number of people, but we think it's going to be worth it. So join us. I mean, that is admittedly a hard message to ask people to join you.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Is there any case to be made? that with a new and deadly virus that everyone was learning about in real time, that if government leaders thought that any of these measures had any chance of working or even just buying time until a vaccine was available, that as a result, it was worth a try. I mean, I guess to distill my question, is a deep singular focus on saving lives okay?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Why not? Just explain that. Because I think there will be some people listening who say that's the only indice that matters in a pandemic.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Steve, you spent a lot of your career researching democracy. Francis, your work is focused on policymaking, your big deals in your fields. And so to start, I want to talk about why you undertook this project of examining the U.S. response to COVID in a really rigorous way.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Let's talk about what happens as the pandemic progresses and the impacts and the costs of these shutdowns, these quarantines, these stay-at-home orders that the government told us we needed, they begin to grow. You, too, posit that even as those costs are rising— the country's public health officials show very little tolerance for an open debate about whether this approach should change.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
And for you, this is encapsulated by what happens to three well-known scientists who decide to write what becomes known as the Great Barrington Declaration. which arrives in the fall of 2020, so about seven months into the pandemic. Can you lay out what that declaration was and how the conversation in response to it unfolded?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Right. Death rates among the elderly were orders of magnitude larger than the general population.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Francis, was there something to the backlash kind of on principle? Because I recall that there was a response from the scientific and public health community that basically amounted to this alternative vision, the Great Parenting Declaration, is just not practical. You know, how do you separate vulnerable people from the rest of society? Think about your immunocompromised grandmother.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
She lives on the third floor of a multigenerational household. How is she supposed to be protected when everybody else is suddenly liberated from their stay-at-home orders and bringing that virus home to then infect her, who is very, very vulnerable?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Mm-hmm. So the question of what the approach should be to COVID, of course, ends up in the hands of states and governors. And as all our listeners will remember, states take very divergent approaches. So talk to us about what you find in your research about that breakdown across the 50 states, especially on the metric of saving lives.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Can I ask you to linger on this period before the vaccines? Because from what you're saying, Francis, before the vaccines were introduced, states that had more and longer restrictive measures had the same more or less number of deaths as states that had less and shorter restrictive measures.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Is there any evidence, Steve, that these restrictions slowed the spread of COVID across the states?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Francis, how is it possible? I just want to make sure we can wrap our heads around how it might be the case that longer, deeper restrictions didn't end up meaningfully changing outcomes. I'm just imagining someone hearing that and thinking, I stayed home. I didn't get sick. And so why, in your estimation, by your analysis, didn't this save more lives?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
And ultimately, it's really the vaccine that starts to make the difference when it comes to death rates.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
And so if we go back to where we started this conversation about tradeoffs, before the pandemic, you thoroughly described this scientific view that these kinds of interventions we've been talking about the whole time, the lockdown approach. was difficult to implement and would come with heavy costs and uncertain benefits.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
And yet the United States and dozens of other countries plowed ahead with the shutdown and lockdown approaches anyway, focusing on their theoretical life-saving benefits. Five years later, what your findings show is that the state-by-state data within the U.S. hasn't definitively established those life-saving benefits. But what we do know is a lot about the costs.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
So talk about what you found when it comes to those costs.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
So if we're putting this all together and summarizing what you found here about the lack of evidence of a life-saving benefit and the real clear evidence of extraordinary cost, from what you're saying, Francis, we're not able to say that at this point, that these extraordinary historic interventions, that they were ultimately worth it?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
I'm curious about something. In the end... You're clearly saying that there needs to be a different kind of conversation about the measures that were taken. But are you saying that we shouldn't have done the things we did during COVID? Because those are two very distinct ways of thinking about this.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
I mean, the risk of any kind of reckoning like this is that it results in people having even less faith in the government and taking bits and pieces of what you find and weaponizing them. Do you worry that conspiracy theories will be fueled by what you're asking people to do here?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
So a final question, and you're starting to hint at it here, Since we can't go back and redo our response to COVID to the degree we can try to get it right next time, if there's a next time, what is your prescription for that, knowing what you now know and knowing how polarized this country remains over what happened?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Well, Steve and Francis, thank you both very much for your time. We really appreciate it.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
On Wednesday, the Federal Reserve predicted that inflation would rise this year to 2.7 percent from 2.5 percent and suggested that President Trump's tariffs on imported goods likely accounted for much of that increase.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Still, the Fed said that it would neither raise nor cut the interest rate, its most powerful tool for influencing inflation, as it waits to see how Trump's policies affect the economy. And Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has agreed to accept Russia's offer of a mutual pause in attacks on energy targets as a step toward a broader ceasefire.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
The agreement came during a call between Zelensky and President Trump, their first conversation since a dramatic Oval Office confrontation last month. Today's episode was produced by Aastha Chaturvedi and Caitlin O'Keefe. It was edited by Larissa Anderson and Lisa Chow. Fact-checked by Susan Lee. Contains original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and Pat McCusker.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
And was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to David Leonhardt, Paula Schumann, Nick Pittman, Celia Duggar, Michael Mason, Paige Cowett, and Jim Yardley. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
And Stephen, what was your experience of this pandemic like and how did that in any way contribute to your desire to excavate the entire thing?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Now, two prominent political scientists are making the case that there's no clear evidence that those lockdowns saved lives, and that it's time for a national reckoning about the decision-making that led to those lockdowns in the first place.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
In your reconstruction event, I found myself thinking, wow, I thought I knew the pandemic really well because I lived through it, but I didn't know it as well as I thought I did. And I think the biggest way many people experience the pandemic was through the mandates, right, the restrictions.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
One of the things that surprised me in your research, in your book, was that heading into the pandemic, you found that there was not a consensus that these restrictions, these mandates around things like school closures, lockdowns, stay-at-home orders, quarantining, masking— that they were the right way to try to fight a respiratory viral pandemic.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
That instead, there was some real uncertainty about whether that made sense or that it could work at a large scale as public policy, and actually that there were a lot of doubts that it ever could.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Let's just zero in on that word because we're going to use it a lot, I think. Non-pharmaceutical interventions. Yes. Just define that.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
The big things we associate with the government's response to the pandemic.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
And what made them controversial and just how controversial were they?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Today, my conversation with Stephen Macedo and Frances Lee about their new book, In COVID's Wake, and what they say will be required for a better outcome when the next pandemic strikes. It's Thursday, March 20th. It's Thursday, March 20th. Just to start, can I call you by your first names? Should I call you by your professional title? Is it okay to call you Steve and Francis? Yes.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Effectiveness in terms of actually stopping containing the spread of the virus.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Right. And prompted by you two and what you wrote, I went in and looked at this study. What it says is that while there is, like you just said, low evidence, that it was plausible that these kinds of interventions could help mitigate the spread of the virus. What do you make of that word plausible?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
You're citing this WHO study, but how widespread, how dominant would you say this skepticism of these kinds of interventions as effective, as worth the cost, as practical and scalable, how widely would you say that view was held before the pandemic?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
So given... this skepticism in the world of public health toward these non-pharmaceutical interventions, or Steve, as you said, basically writ large, the lockdown approach before the pandemic. How and why did the U.S. shift gears and end up recommending pretty much all the things that you're saying everybody previously thought wasn't such a good idea?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Can I just pause you? Because China's response, as I recall... was pretty heavily criticized at the very beginning as harsh.
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
So how does China's response to COVID, that lockdown approach that was so total, at least according to these recommendations, how did it become so persuasive, especially given that's a very unique system of government, totally authoritarian with a big surveillance apparatus and a much more compliant citizenry than most of the world?
The Daily
Were the Covid Lockdowns Worth It?
Of course, now that I've called you by those names, I've pressured you into the informality. Not at all. We're actually not a show that often speaks to academics, if you listen to The Daily, and that's nothing against academics. We usually talk to our colleagues, but you have produced a body of work here that feels important, and it feels... You're both tenured professors at Princeton University.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, the mayor, the president, and the alleged quid pro quo that has plunged the Justice Department and now New York's political world into chaos. My colleague, Nick Fandos, walks us through the saga. It's Thursday, February 20th. Nick, nice to have you in the studio. Thank you for coming. It's always good to be back.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
Just explain that power, how it would work, and whether there's any possibility that New York's governor would even entertain this idea.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
I mean, we should just observe the enormity of what it would mean for the governor of New York to essentially take out the mayor of New York City, as she herself puts it, without an election, in some sense undermining what voters did when they elected Eric Adams.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
Right, and that's more or less where things stand at the time we're now taping with you. On Wednesday, the governor is still weighing this. She's indicated serious interest in possibly pursuing this, but ultimately she may decide to just leave this in the hands of the voters. And take no action.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
And so I want to just put this all together now and ask what you think are the larger lessons of these two crises now that they very much have kind of conjoined.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
Right. And just to make very clear what you're saying, because it sounds very important, and I haven't thought about it this way. Once the president decides that the threat of prosecution or taking prosecution away becomes a policymaking tool, then there's no reason not to expect that it's going to be deployed all over the place.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
On all kinds of issues, the Justice Department may now see the idea of justice as a way of getting policy done. Exactly, Michael.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
On Wednesday evening, Emile Beauvais, the Justice Department official who ordered that charges against Mayor Adams be dropped, issued a stark warning to the department's remaining prosecutors. In a statement, Beauvais told them that they could either work with him to advance Trump's agenda on issues like immigration, or they could resign. We'll be right back.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
Here's what else you need to know today. In a series of barbed back and forths, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky accused President Trump of buying into Russian disinformation. And Trump accused Zelensky of being a dictator.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
The war of words demonstrated just how quickly the alliance between the US and Ukraine is deteriorating because of Trump's decision to embrace Russia and cut Zelensky out of talks to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. And...
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
The Trump administration says that it plans to revoke federal approval for New York City's new congestion pricing system, which tolls drivers who enter Manhattan's busiest streets in order to lower traffic and fund mass transit. The White House said it wants to end the program to save working-class drivers the toll's $9 fee. But it's unclear whether the president has the authority to shut it down.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
New York officials said they would fight to preserve the tolls, which so far appear to be succeeding in reducing traffic. Today's episode was produced by Olivia Nat, Will Reed, and Diana Wynn. It was edited by Lexi Diao, contains original music by Dan Powell and Alishaba Etube, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Rundberg and Ben Landfunk of Wonderland.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
I think we should take these crises one at a time, starting with the crisis that this has triggered inside the Department of Justice, where, as you said, the story has been resignation. So take us in that crisis and why this has felt like a crisis to folks inside the Department of Justice.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bavaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
And suggests that they are kindred spirits in their journey with the justice system.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
Basically, the mothership of the Justice Department is saying to the New York City wing of the Justice Department, this is over. Drop the case.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
So he, just assuming his phone is going to soon ring, writes that letter of resignation saying, I refuse to even be in this seat where I might be asked because I'm so disgusted by what you're undertaking here.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
You come to know the famous phrase from Cindy Adams, the legendary tabloid columnist, only in New York, kids, only in New York. And that seems to apply to the events of the past week or so when our Democratic mayor, indicted on sweeping federal corruption charges that would seem to spell the end of his career, suddenly wins a reprieve from the Republican president of the United States,
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
So he decides to sign it not because he agrees with it, but because the bloodletting, the resignations have to stop.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
And he's now armed with a lot— of new and very pointed information.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
Especially when both of the constituencies in the courtroom want a case dismissed.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
We'll be right back. So, Nick, what has this second crisis, this political crisis inside the New York Democratic world, looked like over the past week or so?
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
But then, as the terms of this reprieve become public, it creates this extraordinary blowback that extends far beyond our fair city. That's where you pick up.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
And what evidence, just to play devil's advocate, do these Democrats have that that's actually the situation?
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
That's an actual quote. So exactly at the moment where the mayor is being accused of becoming a bedfellow of the president on issues of immigration as part of this deal to have the charges dropped, the mayor goes on TV with the president's border czar and seems to allow him to say, you now answer to me.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
However, my sense is that Adams tells all these Democrats politely, I'm not resigning.
The Daily
The Sordid Saga of President Trump and Mayor Adams
And of course, this immediately makes you think back to the resignations over at the Department of Justice. And so these two crises are now seeming to kind of collide.
The Daily
Elbows Up: Canada’s Response to Trump’s Trade War
This is Daily producer Michael Simon-Johnson. I am in downtown Toronto because things are getting real here in Canada.
The Daily
Elbows Up: Canada’s Response to Trump’s Trade War
It feels like the vibe is changing and I am here to do a vibe check.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. This is an absolute honor to sign.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
They have done a deal.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
It promises to provide $100 million in pro bono legal services from Skadden to causes that both President Trump and the law firm both support. It calls for hiring what are known as Skadden Fellows. Those fellows are, at least some of them, supposed to be focused on Trump-friendly issues, and some of them have to be conservative in their ideological outlook.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
And then there's a part of the agreement that vows that Skadden will not engage in quote-unquote illegal DEI hiring practices. Broadly, this is the deal that every major law firm that has come to an agreement has reached with the president. So what is your reaction to this deal when you finally digest it?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Can you explain why? I mean, is it the fact that the firm agreed to this? Is it the specifics around pro bono work, which I know is so important to you? What precisely is making you feel the shame?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Right, but that's what's happening right now.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
So what did you do?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Good. Thomas, welcome to The Daily. Thanks for having me. I'm getting the small sense that this is a nerve-wracking experience for you even before it started. I'm just seeing it on your face. Yeah, it definitely is.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
You're kind of writing to your bosses.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Not necessarily what you set out to do.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Can I ask you to, to read from parts of the letter?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
We have been trying here at The Daily for a few weeks to understand what it's like to work at one of the law firms that's now at the center of President Trump's campaign of retribution. And to have watched from within those firms as one by one by one, these very big and powerful firms have capitulated to the president's campaign. Pretty unusual demands.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
What they've done is just terrible. It's weaponization. Over the past few weeks, Donald Trump has used executive orders to wage war on law firm after law firm.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
What did it feel like to hit send? I mean, listen to your breathing right now. It's like you're reliving it. What was it like to send that email?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
There have been... I mean, you didn't, we should say, mean for this letter to become... As public as it did. It kind of just happened.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
I'm sure you're aware that many people who have spoken out against President Trump and his policies have experienced, at times, ferocious blowback. It can be a life-altering event. Is that something you're worried about now?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
That's the question my mother would ask me.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Many of your colleagues are not leaving their jobs. And there's a spectrum of reasons that you've started to hint at about why they're not leaving. They may feel the way you feel and have two kids they have to put through college. They might not feel the way you feel. I'm thinking about reporting my colleagues did inside the upper echelons of Paul Weiss when that law firm did a deal with Trump.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
And it became clear that the majority of the people who run the firm, lots of them, felt that the best thing to do was to make a deal. And the reason that they articulated they felt that way is that, in their minds, they had to protect the thousands of people who work at these firms. They may have hated the deal. Some of them no doubt hate the deal.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
But they felt their job was to make sure that these firms survives, lives through this period of time. And that at the end of the day, what they're giving up is small compared to that survival. And the bosses at all these firms that end up capitulating to Trump say some version of, we are the same law firm after we did these deals as we were before.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
And it may not shock you to learn this, but attorneys at these firms are pretty reluctant to talk about that. And you are the rare exception. So thank you for being the exception.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
In fact, in a company-wide email, your former boss says just that, quote, this agreement does not change who we are. What do you make of that?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
It does change who the firm is.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
You very clearly said, have a lot of faith in the US. That's just been evident throughout this entire conversation. And your decision to quit seems to be grounded in a sense of what is the best version of what the US can be in your mind.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
But at this point, how confident are you, given everything you've just been through, that the version of the United States that seems to be at the center of everything you've done here is now the version of the United States?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
I want to start. By asking you to explain, Thomas, how it is that you came to be a lawyer in the first place and ended up at this very prestigious firm where you worked until just a few days ago, Skadden Arps. What's that story?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
But are you a little bit worried that you're making the wrong bet and that maybe the law firms, as much as it might pain you to think about it this way, are making the sound bet in this moment?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
I wonder if this experience made you question going into law. I mean, law is one thing in theory, and then it's another thing in practice, especially at these big law firms. These are not nonprofits.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Well, Thomas, thank you for coming in here and for telling us this story. We really appreciate it.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
On Friday, hundreds of firms threw their support behind the first firm to be attacked by President Trump, Perkins Coie, which has sued the administration to stop Trump's executive order against the firm.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
In a legal filing, the hundreds of firms wrote that Trump's crackdown on Perkins Coie and the entire industry, quote, poses a grave threat to our system of constitutional governance and to the rule of law itself. But many of the country's biggest and most profitable firms refused to sign the briefing, including Thomas' former firm, Skadden Arps. We'll be right back.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Here's what else you need to know today. A federal judge has ordered the Trump administration to bring back a migrant it mistakenly deported to a notorious prison in El Salvador by tonight, something the White House said in response that it has little power to do.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
That prompted the judge to declare that the administration's conduct, quote, But instead of trying to fix its error, the White House has instead punished a government lawyer who acknowledged the deportation was done by mistake by placing him on administrative leave over the weekend. And...
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Large-scale protests against President Trump and his agenda were held in cities and towns across the United States over the weekend, attracting hundreds of thousands of demonstrators.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Participants said they were marching to oppose Trump's policies toward federal workers, public education, immigration, tariffs, and public health, and to fight back against Elon Musk's Department of Government efficiency. Speakers at the rallies, including Congressman Eric Swalwell, said that Trump has become a disaster for the country and its finances.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Today's episode was produced by Olivia Nett, Shannon Lin, and Muj Sadie. It was edited by Patricia Willans and Michael Benoit, contains original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Rundberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Jessica Silver-Greenberg. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bobar. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Can you just explain that?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
What was the first real injustice you can remember as an immigrant, not really knowing English, navigating this new world?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
So at the precise moment that you are struggling with your identity and recognizing that you are different from other people, and it sounds like feeling at times a lot of shame around that, you're seeing the United States elect Barack Obama, right?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
like you, the product of a biracial marriage, and somebody who, in that campaign you're describing, invites the whole country to have this really honest conversation about identity and about race.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
specifically targeting those whose current or former lawyers have investigated him, sued him, or represented his enemies in court. But rather than fighting Trump, many of those firms have buckled.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
And when you say this project, what do you mean?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Yeah, I'm getting from you a real sense of idealism and a real pure admiration for what the United States represents.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
So talk about how this all translates into your decision to become a lawyer, to enter this industry.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
I'm just going to explain to people.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
By Skadden, you mean Skadden Arps? Skadden Arps, yes. Big, big law firm has an office here in New York, has offices, I think, all over the world. It's one of the firms that we think of when we think of this concept of big law, law firms that do a huge amount of work in corporate America.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Right, and if I know my law firm culture well, what that means is that charitable legal work that this firm does
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
counts against you being a successful lawyer there, which probably means to a young, idealistic lawyer like you, it means that, yes, while you're going to work at a big, hard-charging corporate law firm, that that law firm is putting pro bono work, work for people who can't afford lawyers, at the center of its culture.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Did you win any of those cases? Did you win all those cases? I can't say. But the smile on your face makes me think that you might have prevailed on behalf of some of those clients. When we were texting today because I needed you to get here on time, you mentioned that you live essentially next door to the law firm, and that doesn't seem like an accident.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Negotiating deals that give Trump much of what he wants and forcing thousands of the lawyers who work at those firms to make a choice. Remain at firms that have capitulated or quit in protest. Most have chosen to stay. Thomas Sipp chose to quit. Today, I asked him to explain why. It's Monday, April 7th. Yeah, come on in. Put on these headphones. These. I think, yes, those. Okay. Comfy? Yeah.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
So you could just be there all the time?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
So when did you start to understand, Thomas, over the past many weeks that Skadden had entered the president's crosshairs?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Right. I believe the claim was that these law firms may have practiced discrimination through the application of diversity, equity, and inclusion practices.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Right, that D'Souza had made.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
Right. And these executive orders, I think it's worth reminding listeners, they can feel to the law firms that are being hit with them like death sentences because they explicitly prevent these firms like Perkins Coie from interacting with the federal government. And so – and we talked about this on the show –
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
If these firms represent any corporation or entity that needs the federal government, and many big companies do, suddenly they can't really effectively represent them. And in that sense, the people who work at these firms fear that they may go out of business.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
So what are you and the people you work with thinking as you're watching this?
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
The executive orders.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
You want to communicate that to your bosses.
The Daily
‘I Felt Ashamed.’ Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump
So what happens next?
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. For many, the presidency of Jimmy Carter, who died yesterday at the age of 100, has become synonymous with failure. But as my colleague Peter Baker explains... The very qualities that hurt Carter as president were the foundation of a post-presidency that has both redeemed and rewritten his legacy. It's Monday, December 30th.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
But, of course, there's another moment, a final chapter of this presidency that's just as defining as the Camp David Accords and that is remembered for generations to come. So tell us about that.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
What is your understanding of why President Carter would make this hostage crisis, which, of course, looks terrible for any president. It's a hostage crisis. Why does he decide to make it so central to his presidency in this moment? Why? not basically put it in the background.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
So what does Carter do to try to free these hostages and turn this test into a success?
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Right, and because he is so fixated on this, and as a result, the media is so fixated on this, that failure becomes a kind of political disaster.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
And of course, unfortunately for Carter, he is up for re-election that same year.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Peter, it's almost as if the Iranians, having already contributed to Carter's re-election loss, want to further humiliate him even after that defeat.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
It feels complicated though, right, Peter? Because as you explained a little bit earlier, the idea of Jimmy Carter in 1976, when he's first running as an outsider, after all these excesses, Watergate and Vietnam, was indisputably... alluring, the kind of smaller version of The Office. But then it seems the reality of Jimmy Carter turned out to be less appealing.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Well, just explain that. What about his post-presidency shows us that this is who Carter was?
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Over the next week, the body of former President Carter is expected to be taken by motorcade from his home in Plains, Georgia to Atlanta, where he will lie in repose at the Carter Center. After that, he will be flown to Washington, where he will lie in state at the U.S. Capitol, before a formal funeral at the National Cathedral.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Per Carter's wishes, he will be interred back in Georgia at a simple family plot. We'll be right back.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Investigators are trying to determine what caused a South Korean passenger plane to skid across a runway on Sunday morning and crash into a barrier, killing nearly all 181 people on board. It was one of the deadliest aviation disasters in years. Shortly before the crash, the control tower at the airport warned of a possible bird strike, and soon after, the plane's pilots issued a mayday.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Today's episode was produced by Carlos Prieto and Sydney Harper, with help from Alexandra Lee Young and Will Reed. It was edited by Lisa Chow and Devin Taylor, fact-checked by Susan Lee, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, Rowan Emisto, and Sophia Landman, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Right, a kind of president who in some ways is... unpresidential, like a president who, despite holding the most powerful office in the country, is constantly projecting humility.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Peter, you are a White House reporter who has covered the last five presidents. You're also a historian of the presidency itself. And in those roles, I'm curious how you've been thinking about the life and now the death of Jimmy Carter.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Right, I really can't. I mean, but it very much seems to reflect that campaign promise, Peter, that Jimmy Carter would never lie to the American people. In some ways, this is a rather extraordinary dose of truth.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
So this reset that Jimmy Carter has attempted to undertake with those meetings at Camp David, with this speech, with this theoretical cleansing of his cabinet, it is all very much seeming to backfire.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Well, talk about that. This unusual man and his unusual presidency. And what, in your mind, is the first chapter of that story that we should understand? Right.
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Right. And the reason it's called the malaise speech is not just because it was about American malaise, because it seemed to embody Jimmy Carter's malaise as president, right?
The Daily
The Life and Legacy of Jimmy Carter
Peter, after all these domestic stumbles, tell us about this success that Carter has overseas.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, the fallout from the extraordinary televised Oval Office shouting match between Donald Trump, J.D. Vance and Volodymyr Zelenskyy. my colleague, Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker, walks us through the clash and its consequences. It's Monday, March 3rd.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
We'll be right back. Peter, pick the story up where you just left it off. What ends up happening behind the scenes, based on your reporting, that ultimately ends with this day becoming totally unsalvageable?
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Peter, the reactions to this encounter are all over the place, as you might expect. You've got Republicans... Some of them now saying it's time for Zelensky to resign. And they are repeating the charge from Trump and Vance that Zelensky wasn't sufficiently respectful and that Ukraine should send the United States a leader who can show the president of the United States more respect.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Then you've got congressional Democrats who are aghast that the president would berate the leader of a country that is an American ally, and furious that we seem to be giving a boost to Russia by humiliating the leader of Ukraine. And so I'm curious what you're making of those two drastically different responses to this same encounter.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
And not just for the spectacle of it, but for its actual consequentialness.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Right, so that's the domestic political response, Peter. But the responses that most intrigued me were from people who said, basically, wasn't this a moment of unvarnished truth-telling from President Trump? Ukraine does not have a good hand. It is deeply reliant on American military aid. It's struggling to recruit soldiers. It cannot win a war of attrition against Russia.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
And it's not really a priority for the Trump administration. So in a way, Trump was being very clear and very direct about all of that in this confrontation.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Right. Which is a slightly different question and one that is important, which is, was this done poorly, impolitely, shockingly so to some. But I think it feels like Trump's goal here is to focus, like you just said, on Russia and China, and that in the end, Ukraine stands in the way of that. Trump wants to be sitting down across from Putin or Xi Jinping.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
He does not want to have to be worrying about a war in Ukraine.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Well, a related question to this, Peter, is, is Europe going to pick up the slack if the U.S., if Trump, is going to walk away from this to focus on Russia and China and, to use your words, potentially leave Ukraine as roadkill? in the pursuit of that goal, is Europe going to step in and protect Ukraine?
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
And it was striking how much in the hours after Zelensky was kicked out of the White House, European leaders lionized him and posed the question of what their role needed to be if the U.S. walks away. I mean, the prime minister of France wrote, by refusing to bend in Washington, Volodymyr Zelensky was the honor of Europe.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
But then he goes on to write, now it is upon us Europeans to decide what we want to be and whether we want to be. And I took that to mean her saying, Europe, are we going to step up and solve the problems for Ukraine that the U.S. has until now, but seems to be walking away from?
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Right. And for all those reasons, I suspect, history will keep turning over this encounter for a very long time, as will we in this conversation in a few moments. But I think it's worth setting up a bit what led to this blow up and talk through the kind of dynamics into which both men entered the Oval Office on Friday. Yeah.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Right. And it seems worth noting that UK's prime minister, even as he announced more money for Ukraine, said, we've got to be honest, we still need a backstop from the US. There's nothing approaching a true guarantee of Ukraine's safety unless the US is involved.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Right. Peter, my final question for you is about Zelensky and what, based on your reporting, you think he is going to do now. He's been issued this offer via President Trump to return to the White House, but only as a man of peace. And from everything you're saying here, what that really means is that the president wants him to return as a person willing to capitulate and recognize that the U.S.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
doesn't really care as much as it once did about protecting Ukraine and that he has to live and die by Trump's hope that Putin would keep a deal that Trump makes. And that means giving up a lot. And so I'm curious, do you think Zelensky will return to the White House and On the terms that Trump wants? Or does he not return?
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
And does he instead focus on Europe as a replacement and savior for Ukraine as potentially insufficient as that might be?
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Well, Peter, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Great to talk with you. On Sunday night, a spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the Trump administration's new policies towards countries like Ukraine, encapsulated by the Oval Office confrontation between Trump and Zelensky, had brought the United States much closer to Russia's own approach.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
The spokesman said, quote, the new administration is rapidly changing all foreign policy configurations. This, he added, largely aligns with our vision.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
On Sunday, Israel disrupted its existing and agreed-upon framework for ending its war with Hamas by saying it would immediately end the flow of all goods and humanitarian assistance into Gaza. The decision is an attempt by Israel to temporarily extend its ceasefire deal with Hamas without advancing to the next more delicate stage of negotiations.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
That stage would have required Israel to withdraw troops from Gaza and to commit to a permanent ceasefire in return for the release of the remaining Israeli hostages inside Gaza. Hamas immediately denounced Israel's decision. But it was clear that the Trump administration supports Israel's new plan. And over the weekend, U.S.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Secretary of State Marco Rubio invoked emergency powers to bypass Congress and send $4 billion in weapons to Israel. Today's episode was produced by Will Reed and Muj Zaydi. It was edited by Liz O'Balin, contains original music by Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Right. Two men have never had such awkward history, perhaps, as world leaders.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Right. So Zelensky, as you've clearly just laid out here, has no affection for Trump, but will agree to come to Washington to sign this minerals deal, mostly to protect whatever existing frayed, attenuated relationship the U.S. still has with Ukraine as a supporter of its defense.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Peter, thank you for making time for us on a Sunday afternoon, no less. We appreciate it.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
I'm curious, Peter, where in the pantheon of moments that you have witnessed at the White House over the past 30 years to date you, does what happened in the Oval Office on Friday fit, would you say?
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Right. It feels worth noting that in this moment, Zelensky decides to call the vice president J.D., not Vice President Vance.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
What do you mean? Perhaps history will not note this as an important moment.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Yeah, just translate what he's saying there because it feels like a really important point Zelensky's trying to make.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
In effect, what Trump is saying is, Zelensky, all you need to understand is that you have no power right now. We have all the power. Get on board or you're in real trouble. Yeah, exactly.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
We should say, at this moment, all three of these leaders, seasoned leaders, could have chosen to de-escalate what's becoming an incredibly acrimonious, almost shouting match. But they don't. They all seem quite loaded for bear. Yeah.
The Daily
The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown
Peter, once the shock wore off, for me at least, and as I told you, I'm watching this as well, I had this sense, and I wonder if you did as well, that people in the two delegations, the Zelensky camp and the Trump camp, they're going to find a way to try to smooth this over after the cameras leave the room because, of course, they are there to sign a deal.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Over the past few days, a routine debate over government funding has exploded into an angry showdown over the Democratic Party's identity in the Trump era and whether its current leadership is right for the moment.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right, when the Tea Party actually emerges. Yeah, just take us back there, because I think for this provocative question to really make sense, we're going to need to be reminded of that history.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. To many Republicans, their leadership, especially in Congress, is feeling ineffectual, not up to the task of opposing this powerful president from the opposing party. So...
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. And so this explains why your provocative question isn't necessarily that provocative. You're seeing evidence, you're saying, that the Democratic Party's mindset, especially among a group of voters, has changed.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
And suddenly they're asking the question, should we be a party where fighting is the point, even if it means potentially shutting down the government, in order to fight President Trump?
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right, the fight-fight Republican Party.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Fascinating. But of course, if we're going to stick with the Tea Party model here of internal insurgency that we might start to see on the Democratic side. I want to reflect on the fact that the Tea Party's overall message was profoundly anti-government, right? It was the government is too big, the government is too invasive, and that's not the Democratic Party's brand.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Democratic Party's brand is generally quite supportive of the government and of its workers. That's partly why some Democrats were so alarmed by the idea of pushing the government into a shutdown over the past few days. That's hard for a lot of Democrats to swallow. So how do these Democrats who perhaps view the Tea Party as a model for change reconcile that?
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right, who said, basically, we think you made the wrong call.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
So this still pretty inchoate vision of a democratic insurgency so far is fight, fight, but not just fight for its own sake. Fight with an alternative democratic agenda than what the existing democratic leadership offers.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
And I'm guessing many of them believe the absence of which doomed President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris in the last election in which they were seen, the whole party was seen as protectors of the status quo.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Shane, the reality is that the next congressional primaries for Democrats that will reveal whether or not something like a Tea Party insurgency is happening within the party, they're not for another year. And a lot can happen between now and then.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
And therefore, just to be transparent, it's impossible for us to know whether we're at the beginning of something really big happening in this party, just as it would have been really hard to predict that Obama's election in 2008 and what he did in 2009, 2010 was going to lead to the birth of the Tea Party. Right. Absolutely.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Well, Shane... Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
On Sunday, a new poll found that an overwhelming majority of Democrats want their party to fight President Trump. By a two-to-one margin, registered Democrats told NBC News that they want Democrats in Congress to stick with their positions, even if that creates gridlock in Washington, rather than make compromises with Trump.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Here's what else you need to know today. The Trump administration has deported dozens of alleged Venezuelan gang members without a hearing, potentially in violation of an order over the weekend from a U.S. federal judge.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Trump sent the suspected gang members to a notorious prison in El Salvador by invoking the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, which allows the US to summarily expel people from countries at war with the US. But the U.S. is not at war with Venezuela.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
And on Saturday night, a federal judge ruled that the deportations were illegal and that any planes taking the suspects to El Salvador must be turned around and returned to the U.S. Yet it does not appear that any of the flights were in fact stopped.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
And Trump has signed an executive order dismantling the agency that oversees Voice of America, which for decades has transmitted news into mostly authoritarian countries with no independent news media. Soon after, hundreds of journalists for Voice of America were put on leave, and many radio frequencies that carry its programming overseas began playing music instead of news.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Today's episode was produced by Muj Zaydi and Nina Feldman, with help from Carlos Prieto. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Lexi Diao, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Rowe Nymisto, and Pat McCusker, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderland. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bavaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. A remarkable moment where basically the number two Democrat in Congress won't say whether he supports the number one Senate Democrat. That's a huge, huge deal.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Well, tell us how we got to this moment in such a short period of time where Democrats are truly, it seems, at each other's throat about the best way to operate in this first phase of the Trump administration.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. We've only covered this, you and I, Katie, I don't know, 10 times in the last four years, something like that.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. And normally it's Democrats who end up being needed. They end up being summoned to rescue these spending bills to avoid a shutdown. You're saying in this case, suddenly they're just kind of left off to the sidelines.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Got it. In other words, it empowers the Trump administration at a moment where Democrats would like to do anything they can to disempower it.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Got it. So naturally, the bill then moves over to the Senate, where Republicans are in control, but not so much control that they can just pass a spending bill necessarily on their own.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. And based on everything you've said so far, I have to think that Senate Democrats are thinking to themselves, well, we can't support this either.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. Just as the House had done, but without any real leverage.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
You have many options of how to spend your Sunday. Appreciate you spending it with us.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. And as agonized as they are, they know that their leader, Chuck Schumer, has their back.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. This is a genuinely surprising moment. And this is when the anger that we have been referring to since the very beginning of this conversation really begins to explode.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
So, Katie, pretty much from the moment that Donald Trump was inaugurated for the second term, there has been this low-grade debate playing out inside the Democratic Party about how to counter him and what Democrats can do and should do about his role. really aggressive strategy of firing thousands of government workers, shutting down agencies, circumventing Congress in the process.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
basically saying in the most public way imaginable, I disagree with the Senate Democratic leader.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Right. And when you put that together with the House, what you basically see is the majority of congressional Democrats, the vast majority of them, not doing what Chuck Schumer did, in fact, doing the opposite.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
All of which suggests that the Democratic base and a fair number of Democratic lawmakers who voted against this, they wanted their party to take a stand here and are quite upset that at the last minute, at the direction of Senator Schumer, the party did not.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
And the question has been when would that internal debate really come to a head and become a public battle? And the answer, it seems, is right now. Because it all really just became a public brawl over the past few days. And that all seems to revolve around the actions of the Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer of New York.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
After the break, Shane Goldmacher on how this surge of anger from Democratic voters and lawmakers could change the Democratic Party. We'll be right back.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Happy Sunday to you. Shane, you've been watching everything that Katie Edmondson just described, especially the anger from Democratic voters with their leaders, which as Katie just put it, is something we tend to associate much more with Republicans than Democratic voters. And you have a provocative thought about that and what it could potentially represent.
The Daily
The Weekend Democrats Went to War — Against Each Other
Well, just explain that, its own Tea Party moment.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Over the past few weeks, the resistance of a single Republican senator has threatened to derail Donald Trump's controversial choice of Pete Hegseth to run the Department of Defense. Today... Karin Demersian and Jonathan Swan with the story of how Trump and his allies ensured that that senator's resistance quickly went away.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Right. And the message that they're sending her via this onslaught from all sides seems to be, Senator Ernst, if you like being in the U.S. Senate as a Republican from Iowa, if you don't want us to find someone to run against you, if you don't want your phones ringing off the hook and our...
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Trump MAGA base turning against you, you should probably just find a way to get behind Pete Hexeth as Secretary of Defense, because then all this will probably go away.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So how does Ernst respond to all of this?
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So this ends up becoming a pretty extraordinary demonstration of the president-elect's power.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
On Sunday, the Republican campaign to rally support for Pete Hegseth continued. Senator Lindsey Graham, a close Trump ally, said that Hegseth has agreed to release the woman who accused him of sexual assault from a confidential legal settlement. That, Graham told NBC News, would allow his accuser to come forward publicly with her allegations and let senators evaluate whether or not they are true.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Here's what else you need to know today.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Over the weekend, South Korea's legislature voted to impeach the country's leader, President Yoon Seok-yool, as punishment for his decision to impose martial law on the country. The vote, which immediately strips Yoon of his presidential powers, was met with cheers in the streets of South Korea's capital.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Yoon's martial law decree, issued on December 3, lasted only six hours, but it threw South Korea's democracy into chaos and triggered massive public protests. Yoon's fate now rests with South Korea's Constitutional Court, which will decide within the next six months whether to reinstate or formally remove him from office.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Luke Vanderplug, and Asta Chaturvedi, with help from Nina Feldman. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Devin Taylor, contains original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. That's it for the day. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Well, just explain that. Tell us about Senator Joni Ernst and how her career ends up so at odds with Hexeth.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Well, so given her role as a Republican leader on all of these issues, issues that do not seem to align with Hegseth's biography and these accusations that he faces, what is Ernst's response to Hegseth being tapped to run the military?
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Yesterday, you had a significant meeting with Pete Hegseth, our former colleague. And right now.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
It's Monday, December 16th. Karin, in your role as a congressional reporter, you have been closely tracking the fate of Trump's pick to run the U.S. military, Pete Hegseth, a pick that was controversial from the start but has become only more controversial over the past couple of weeks.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So quite understandably, this senator who has led her party on all these issues like sexual assault is deciding that these accusations against him might be disqualifying. And she's saying so on of all occasions. networks, Fox News, which she and everyone else in the Republican Party know that the president-elect watches so closely.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
After the break, my colleague Jonathan Swan on how Ernst's resistance triggered a MAGA swarm that has brought Hegseth back from the brink.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So, Jonathan, as Hegseth's path becomes messier and messier, and he's kind of just flapping in the wind there with senators like Joni Ernst saying she can't get behind him, what's happening inside Trump world?
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
And we should just say that is surprising, not just because it means Trump is writing off Pete Hegseth, but because he has hated DeSantis. I mean, DeSantis went against him. They destroyed him in that campaign. That is a very unexpected alternative.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So what might have begun as a bunch of people around Trump kind of revolting against the idea of Ron DeSantis as the next Secretary of Defense morphs into this larger objection to the idea that Trump would back down again on one of his picks for the Cabinet and show weakness in a way that might completely shape his presidency. Exactly.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So what does it actually look like once Team Trump decides we are not going to back down and actually we're going to go on the offense here?
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
And what does it look like for Senator Ernst to be the focus of this campaign?
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Big tech's biggest names are throwing their weight behind Donald Trump in the biggest possible way, first as candidate and now as president-elect. Today, business reporter Aaron Griffith on what one tech billionaire's journey from top-tier Democratic donor to Trump advisor reveals about the growing MAGAfication of Silicon Valley.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
We'll be right back. Aaron, talk about this courtship from the other side, because so far what you're describing from Mark Andreessen is really a deepening frustration with the left, with the Biden administration, rather than any kind of deep kinship with Donald Trump.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Right. It sounds like what he's telling Andreessen, and it sounds like Andreessen wants to hear it, is that Trump is prepared to restore the deal, as Andreessen would call it. You do your thing. I'm here to cheer you on and celebrate and help.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
So Andreessen creates something of a permission structure for others in the Valley to say, I, too, support Trump.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Mm hmm. In thinking about the story that you have told here and the journey that Marc Andreessen has gone on, it's pretty clear that there are two major elements here. One is that in his mind, the Democratic Party failed him and failed tech, both culturally and financially. And the second component is that Trump, in his mind, meets...
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
the tech industry where it is, both culturally and financially. And in that sense, it's just not all that complicated. But what stands out, to me at least, is that this ends up being the story of the Democratic Party seeming to forfeit what had been a very long and seemingly fruitful relationship with these innovators and leaders of tech. And when we think about the result of the 2024 election...
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
I think quite naturally, you know, we think about the fact that the vote went to Trump and that once again he made all these gains in various constituencies. I hadn't really thought of it as an election in which he had also made gains in the constituency of Silicon Valley. But that is clearly one of the places that he made very unexpected inroads.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Well, now that we understand the depth of Silicon Valley support for Trump, and now that Trump is about to take office, how much sway do we think people like Marc Andreessen, because they were out early and publicly for Trump, will have over him as president?
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Because so far, it feels like it's the tech industry in some of its policy announcements and its donations to Trump's inauguration that have been making the concessions to Trump rather than Trump necessarily making any concessions to Silicon Valley.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
You know, it strikes me, Aaron, that Andreessen's animating premise here and really the heart of his political evolution is is his belief that this deal he articulated makes sense, still makes sense. But the reality, I think, for many is that the deal he wants to bring back, the one he felt Biden walked away from, the one he thinks Trump will honor, was from a different era, right?
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
When tech was small, it was the underdog. You could argue it needed a long leash to grow and thrive. But that's not the story of tech now. It is huge and hugely powerful. It affects all of us, in many cases for good, in many ways.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
For bad, take kids' social media or the anti-competitive behavior of tech giants that's laid out in federal antitrust lawsuits, or take the risks of artificial intelligence or crypto. We watched the biggest crypto exchange explode and billions of dollars just disappear. And therefore, many would argue, tech does require some kind of meaningful government oversight.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
And so what he's asking for seems to be a world where the government's approach to tech The deal no longer really matches what tech is today. And yet what he seems to want from Trump and people like Andreessen seem to want from this administration is a world where the terms of this deal don't change, even though the industry quite obviously has.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
On Friday, Silicon Valley's alienation from Biden and growing fondness for Trump continued to be on vivid display. At a news conference, Biden denounced the decision by Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg to end the company's system of fact-checking, calling it, quote, really shameful. Meanwhile, Zuckerberg traveled to Mar-a-Lago for his second in-person meeting with Trump since the election.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Over the weekend, the death toll from the wildfires across greater Los Angeles reached 24 people, with many more still missing. As winds briefly calmed, firefighters made some progress in fighting two of the biggest fires. As of Sunday night, they have contained 11% of the Palisades Fire and 27% of the Eaton Fire.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
But forecasters expect another round of strong winds to return today and tomorrow, which may only intensify and spread the fires and force the planes that are fighting them from the sky to be grounded. And Jack Smith, the special counsel who brought two federal prosecutions against President-elect Trump, has resigned.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Smith was forced to drop both of his cases, one charging Trump with mishandling classified documents, the other of plotting to overturn the 2020 election under a Justice Department policy that bars the pursuit of prosecutions against a sitting president. Today's episode was produced by Jessica Chung, Mujzadi, and Nina Feldman, with help from Eric Krupke and Mary Wilson.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
It was edited by Lisa Chow, Patricia Willans, and Mark George, and fact-checked by Susan Lee. It contains original music by Marion Lozano and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Right. Roughly translated, he's saying we are doing this because of Trump's victory. More or less. And the question that that raises right away is, is this opportunism? Is this big tech and Silicon Valley doing what a lot of profitable industries do when there's a new president, which is... seek friendly relationships with the new boss? Or is this something deeper?
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Is this the case of big tech's true political identity emerging from behind what may have been a cloak of liberalism?
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
So how does Andreessen go from reliable, normie Democrat to supporter and now advisor to Donald Trump?
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
You have been covering startups and Silicon Valley for a long time. And you know as well as anyone that by reputation, Silicon Valley is seen as a liberal bastion, a place where progressive thinking is nursed and promoted. But over the past decade, year, especially during the presidential campaign, it really did feel like Silicon Valley's conservative self began to emerge.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
So in his mind, the deal had been honored for much of the history of Silicon Valley and much of his own very successful career until suddenly people start to, as you said, pick apart, question, challenge everything about the people who are at the center of the deal, these entrepreneurs, these founders, people like Mark Zuckerberg, and suddenly they can only do wrong.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
Right. And I remember Facebook in particular took that very personally and they were upset about it.
The Daily
Big Tech’s Big Bet on Trump
So at first, he's watching with some alarm as... Tech companies, primarily from the left, are being pushed toward a form of what he regards as censorship. And then he's watching as a new administration comes in that, based on its appointments, seems outright hostile to big tech's business interests.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
We'll be right back. So, Sasha, I think we've arrived at the moment in this conversation, we've held it in suspense long enough, where you just have to explain why it is, how it is, that this masterpiece is never going to be seen by anyone else. How that's possible, what the story there is.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Wow. Sounds like Netflix basically sells out Ezra Edelman after all these years and says that some family-made version of a film might someday replace what you have described as this masterpiece.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
So the argument was that a film that fully exposes the motivations and the biography of this artist will hurt his reputation for a generation. I just want to translate that phrase.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
That's the estate side of this. What does Ezra make of Netflix's role in all of this?
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Let's just assume for a moment that Netflix is in the business of doing what's good for Netflix and Netflix's audience. Would Netflix be right to assume that what Ezra Edelman has created here might not actually necessarily be what its vast audience wants?
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
I want to ask you a somewhat provocative question. This was an effort to demystify someone who to a large degree wanted to be unknowable.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
And so this outcome, as tragic as it must seem to Ezra Edelman and clearly to you as someone who sees it as a masterpiece, is there any kind of cruel poetic justice here that this controlling artist who curated his image so carefully is going to remain, because of what happened here, unknowable? That he is weirdly getting the last word on what we all get to see of him?
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
What she really seems to be saying is to deny the world this film is to deny this man's full humanity and to hide it away. And that only reinforces the idea that there's something wrong with being what all of us kind of are, which is damaged and complex, and that this whole journey means... that revealing the fullness of that experience is somehow intolerable.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
much we appreciate it thank you michael we'll be right back Here's what else you need to know today. President Trump is suspending tariffs on most imports from Mexico and Canada for the next month in a concession to the country's leaders and to the U.S. business community, which fears the tariffs will cost them money.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Mexico's president, Claudia Sheinbaum, celebrated the news, saying that Mexico's cooperation with the United States had, quote, "...yielded unprecedented results." And on Thursday, California's Democratic governor, Gavin Newsom, broke with other top party officials by saying he objected to the participation of transgender athletes in women's sports. Would you do something like that?
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Would you say no men and female sports? Well, I think it's an issue of fairness. I completely agree with you on that. It is an issue of fairness.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Newsom, widely seen as a potential Democratic candidate for president in 2028, made the declaration during an interview with the conservative podcaster Charlie Kirk at a moment when Democrats are wrestling with how to respond to President Trump's victory and the reality that the party's position on social issues like trans participation in sports is unpopular with many voters.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Well, tell me more about Ezra Edelman and why he is such a once-in-a-generation talent.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Aastha Chaturvedi, and Diana Nguyen. It was edited by Michael Benoit and Brendan Klinkenberg. Was fact-checked by Susan Lee. Contains original music by Dan Powell, Mary Lozano, Alishaba Itu, and Diane Wong. And sound design by Alishaba Itu. It was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landfrank of Wonderly.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
From New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. For the last few years, one of the country's most celebrated filmmakers has tried to unlock the mysteries of one of the country's most celebrated musicians. According to my colleague, Times Magazine deputy editor Sasha Weiss, the result is a cinematic masterpiece. So how is it possible that nobody will ever see it?
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
It's Friday, March 7th. Sasha, welcome to The Daily.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Okay, I very much now appreciate why the prospect of this filmmaker, this mystery unlocker being applied to the subject of Prince, who remains pretty deeply mysterious, would be appealing to you. So how does Ezra Edelman become drawn to and ultimately undertake a documentary of the same scale, the work you just described, applied to Prince?
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Hard to fathom it's your inaugural episode.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
I want to just acknowledge... a certain awkwardness to the work we're about to undertake, which is we are going to be talking, you and I, about a very important film that none of us will ever see. Yeah. That's weird. Totally. But back when you thought the world very much would see the film... You became deeply invested in the story of it. And you have stayed invested in it for years.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
So the vault, for all intents and purposes, and perhaps on purpose, was kind of empty. So what does he do?
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
And what did you think? It's a masterpiece. And what makes you say that?
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
Sounds like somebody locking somebody in a room for six weeks. He wanted control. So basically this is a portrait of, this is something of a psychological cliche, but someone who was hurt who goes on to do some real hurt.
The Daily
The Cinematic Masterpiece You Won’t Get to See
I wonder if you can explain, and I'm sure the film attempts to do this, how all of that pain, that anguish, all this biography influences and is ultimately responsible for Prince's music.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
OK, well, on that note, we're going to take a break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about what retaliation we suspect is going to look like from all the countries in the regions you all cover against the United States in response to what we have just done with these tariffs. We'll be right back.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
So, Peter and Gina, Natalie, let's talk about how this is all going to play out over the next few months, specifically in the form of retaliation and the impacts of the retaliation from the countries who have just been hit with these tariffs and are stewing over that and planning to essentially fire back at us. Where should we start?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
It's Friday, April 4th. So, colleagues, welcome to The Roundtable. Peter Goodman, thank you for being here in the studio. Great to be here. Natalie Kittoroff, thank you for joining us from Mexico City. Thanks for having me. And Gina Spilak, I don't know where in Europe you are.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Who feels like they have the best handle on the coming retaliation? Probably Gina does.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Is it worth saying, Gina, that the European Union is, how big a trading partner is it to the U.S. when we think about the meaning of retaliation? Huge. Huge.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
When we say services, what do we mean, just to be clear?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
What does it look like, this crossed Rubicon? Does that mean they're going to tax our tech?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
But, Peter, can you explain why does that matter? When I think of Amazon or Meta, these companies getting taxed by Europe, wouldn't on its face seem like such a big deal? What am I missing?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Right. So you're saying if Europe decides to cut American tech out of Europe, then suddenly the American tech industry is really unhappy. And they're probably going to tell President Trump that the tariffs are the reason why. That is effective retaliation.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Thank you for joining us from sunny Brussels. We have assembled the three of you because you have tremendous experience covering the three regions of the world that are at the center of this historic and historically disruptive moment, Trump's sweeping global plans for tariffs, what he's calling Liberation Day for the U.S.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
What's going to be the retaliation from China, and how is that going to impact American consumers, Peter?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
What you're all outlining here is just a huge dose of uncertainty. And so I want to ask each of you to think about what the best case and the worst case scenario is from these tariffs. Let's call it over the next six months. to four years. I made up that window, but just think big about how this might play out.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Peter, you have covered Asia for years and years, for the time you lived there for many years. Gina, you are covering Europe. Natalie, you are our economic authority on... Mexico, but really, in some sense, North America. So, my first question to the three of you, with 24 hours to reflect on what the president just announced, how big a deal is this? I want to start with you, Peter.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Which has serious implications for the U.S. given the border relationship and migration between the two countries, we would presume. Gina?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
And that's the gamble that the president has just made.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Well, on that note, I'm going to thank you all. Peter, thank you. Thanks very much, Michael. Gina, thank you.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
On Friday morning US time, China retaliated against President Trump's new tariffs in a variety of ways. It issued 34% across-the-board tariffs on imports from the US, essentially barred 11 major American companies from doing business in China, and opened multiple investigations into US trade practices.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
President Trump has fired six officials from the National Security Council after an extraordinary meeting in the Oval Office with the far-right activist Laura Loomer, who laid out a list of people that she believes were disloyal to the president.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
The sequence of events suggests that Loomer, who has floated the baseless conspiracy theory that the September 11th attacks were an inside job, is now wielding more influence over the staff of the National Security Council than the cabinet officials who officially oversee them. Today's episode was produced by Will Reed and Muj Zaydi. It was edited by Maria Byrne, Paige Cowett, and Lisa Chow.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Contains original music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, and Marian Lozano. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonder League. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Gina, any argument that this is not a big a deal as these hyperbolic colleagues of yours?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Okay, so now that we have absorbed the bigness of this all, I want to ask you all to help make sense of this as a strategy. And Peter, one of the things becomes very clear when you look at these tariffs is that as universal as they appear, they are seemingly pretty targeted at a familiar trade foe of the Trump administration, and that is Asia.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
But it's not just China. Look at this chart. Vietnam now hit with a new tariff that represents 46%.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
In other words, these manufacturers took a side door out of China into their neighboring economies, set up shop there, same problem with trade imbalance. That's right. So this is meant to catch that.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Got it. So the goal, if we think about the focus on Asia, is to make it far more expensive for goods to come from Asia to the United States, thereby discouraging that trade scenario where all that stuff comes from those places. That's right. In the first place. That's right. Okay. That's a strategy that I think I can wrap my head around.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Natalie, what in your mind is the strategy here for the North American side of that equation?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Now, that's complicated, of course, because of what you're saying is true, that Trump is trying to create a much stronger North American kind of trading block. He's been going about it in a very strange way, given how much he's been attacking Trump. both Mexico and Canada and threatening tariffs on them individually even before this.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
So if we're all supposed to be operating as one vast, beloved set of partners, it hasn't been feeling that way.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. On Thursday, the fallout from President Trump's sweeping new global tariffs reverberated across financial markets and foreign capitals, spreading fear and, in many cases, fury. Today, we try to make sense of Trump's strategy and its consequences with three of my colleagues, Peter Goodman, Natalie Kitchoff, and Gina Smilak.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
But that's not really the case because you're saying bringing manufacturing back to North America, even if it's Mexico, is more American production and better for the American economy by far.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Gina, where does Europe fit into all of this? And... What does the U.S. get from hitting our allies in Europe with tariffs? And I'm sure I'm ignorant. What kind of jobs are going to be coming from Europe back to the U.S. in manufacturing?
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
I want to pick up on cars and the idea of reshoring. And Natalie and Peter, how realistic is the idea, and it's not just related to Europe, that through these tariffs, the United States is going to be bringing more car manufacturing jobs back to the U.S.? We've talked at length about the fact that cars are made up of component parts assembled all over the world.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
I just want to recap what you're saying. It's a little bit. complicated, very fascinating. A company like Hyundai did exactly what we in the U.S. say we want a company from South Korea to do. They moved more manufacturing to the U.S. Then we just hit them within the last 48 hours with all these new costs through these tariffs that are going to kind of undermine the fact that they moved here
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Natalie, what Peter's describing is a kind of paralysis that might set in as companies look at these tariffs and fear that consumers are not going to be biting in this moment. Is that something you expect?
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
During the campaign, the three of you embarked on a reporting project to understand what Donald Trump's second term would look like, the norms it would challenge, the presidential power it would seek to expand, and the ways in which it would test our democratic system of checks and balances. You all came on the show to talk about it. We
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Is there any reason to think we were not, Maggie, going to get that? Kash Patel, who appeared on those podcasts, talked about enemies lists and would be pretty different from the FBI directors of the past who saw their role as having a fair bit of independence from the president.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
The future director of the FBI, potentially, has been producing a song whose focus are those who attacked the Capitol on January 6th.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Next up, Jonathan, we have Tulsi Gabbard's nomination to be the next director of national intelligence. Another pretty unorthodox choice. A convert, once Democrat, now Republican, who has expressed a lot of loyalty to Trump with pretty non-traditional credentials for such a big national security role.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Should we see her in the same light as Kash Patel in the context of this conversation we're having about Trump? Basically, these folks getting these jobs and just expanding the president's power because there's not going to be much independence.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Now that Trump is president and has unveiled such an aggressive and muscular agenda, it made sense to have you back to assess and explain what he's done so far and how it maps on to what you had foreshadowed in that previous conversation. So I guess, Jonathan, since you used the word, maybe we'll start with you, but where should we start with predictions versus reality?
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
But you said she might not get confirmed. And I'm curious if any of you... would explain, if she's not going to be confirmed, precisely why it will be. And I suspect it's not just because she was a Democrat, you know, five minutes ago. Clearly, I'm exaggerating.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
For the reasons you described earlier, which is why take the risk to your own job. But if enough Republicans oppose Tulsi Gabbard to get in the way of her nomination, that would – be the establishment of a line we haven't seen Republicans draw, and it would be a level of risk-taking we haven't seen, would it matter?
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
A brief but ultimately not especially meaningful rebellion is what it might be.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Charlie, I want to end this conversation by asking you, and perhaps others will expand on it, about a phrase you used in the episode we did with you all back in April. I had asked you what would be the state of our democracy if Trump carried out all the things that he'd planned to.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
And you had said it could represent a genuine challenge to, and maybe even over time, to a certain degree, the end of American-style democracy. And you chose your words carefully. American-style democracy. It's obviously very early, very early, but given the blitz that we have experienced over the past two weeks, where does American-style democracy stand, if that's a fair question?
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Well, Charlie, Maggie, Jonathan, thank you very much. We appreciate it, as always. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you, Michael. We'll be right back. Today's episode was produced by Olivia Nat and Muj Zaydi. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Brendan Klinkenberg. Contains original music by Dan Powell and Rowan Emisto and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderlay. Special thanks to Nick Pittman. Remember, you can catch a new episode of The Interview right here tomorrow. Lulu Garcia Navarro talks with addiction expert Dr. Anna Lemke, author of the bestselling book Dopamine Nation, about why so many of us are hooked on what she calls digital drugs.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Since his inauguration, President Trump has exercised a level of power that has directly challenged the checks and balances that, on paper, define the U.S. government.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Today, I gathered three of my colleagues, Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan, and Charlie Savage, to talk about the absence of resistance and about Trump's plans to make a more powerful presidency permanent. It's Friday, January 31st. Friends, welcome back. Some of you, welcome to the roundtable. Charlie Savage, welcome. Thank you. Maggie Haberman, as always, a pleasure. Thank you, Michael.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Maggie, what has stood out to you as you contemplate what your reporting suggested this term might look like and what it's actually been in these first two weeks?
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Charlie, I want to ask you how much these actions that the president and those around him have taken over the past two weeks are testing the limits of presidential power and just the law. And Maggie started to hint at this, how the rest of government, both legislative and judicial branches, the checks and balances are responding or not responding.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Why? Why do something that—assuming there are lawyers in the government who are as smart as you, why do it?
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
I just want to summarize that because it's a little bit of a complicated thought. It feels very important. You're suggesting that some of the actions the president is taking, especially when he seems to be getting rid of federal workers who would seem to have very clear job protections within the law, is that he wants them to trigger a legal process that ends before a Republican appointee
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
majority of the Supreme Court justices who then rule not in the favor of the workers, but in favor of Trump and essentially redefine and expand presidential power in the process. But there's no guarantee that that's going to happen. But is the journey itself just worthwhile under the current ideology of this White House?
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Well, let's talk about that a little bit more, Jonathan, since you queued it up. Congress could have acted in many of the executive orders that Trump has signed. And I want to read you something that our colleague Carl Hulse, the justifiable dean of congressional reporters in my estimation, wrote in the past 24 hours.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Jonathan Swan, welcome back. Thanks. I want to start by asking you to describe, in a word, if you'll indulge this exercise, the past two weeks.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
He said, Congress passed a law shutting down TikTok and President Trump, once inaugurated, flouted it. Congress required advanced notification for firing inspectors general and the Trump administration ignored it. Congress approved trillions of dollars in spending on a multitude of federal programs. And Mr. Trump throws it anyway.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
And he concludes, the new administration is quickly demonstrating it does not intend to be bound by the legal niceties or traditional checks and balances of its relationship with Congress. Basically, what his analysis is saying is the president doesn't really care about what Congress thinks right now, even when congressional law is being seemingly broken by his actions.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
I would expect, Charlie, and I think about you as someone who has spent a big part of your career thinking about checks and balances and institutional prerogatives. Why aren't Republicans in Congress taking an opportunity just to establish kind of a bare minimum of what Congress's role is supposed to be?
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
And isn't there just a kind of a basic level of pride that a person has once they're elected to the House? or to the Senate in what that institution is supposed to do.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
I knew one of you was going to say that. And that's because we have had a series of conversations with you three that, in many ways, prepared me, prepared all of our listeners for what the last two weeks, to a degree, have looked like. And that's why we asked you all... to come back. Let me just explain.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Right, which helps explain the congressional deference to these power plays. So just to summarize this, as the president has sought to pretty profoundly expand his power, Congress has basically said, God bless for all the reasons you just walked through, which leads to courts.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
And as you all established, it's a pretty open question of whether and how the court might rule on something as meaningful as executive power. So that's where things stand. We are going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the confirmation hearings that have dominated the last 24 hours.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
So Maggie, Charlie, Jonathan, I want to turn to another way that President Trump is exercising his power in this moment and changing the nature of presidential power, which is through appointments of loyalists who we expect would defer to him.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
That's something else you all had forecast in our original Trump 2.0 conversations last year, that Trump did not want skeptics, did not want institutionalists, did not want those who would check his power or say no to him. Two of the most important appointees, Kash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard, had their confirmation hearings over the past 48 hours. Charlie, I want to begin with you.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
What would Kash Patel's confirmation to lead the Federal Bureau of Investigation mean for some of the norms and presidential power questions that we're talking about here?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, the ongoing fallout from the signal-text security breach and what the first real crisis of President Trump's second term is telling us about his cabinet's approach to blame and accountability.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Can we talk for a minute about how Mike Waltz has decided to handle this moment? Increasingly, as the president has shifted the focus to him, you created the text thread, why on earth is Jeffrey Goldberg on your phone in the first place? Waltz has kind of been in the hot seat. And he went on Fox News a few nights ago and inevitably was asked the question—
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
How does Jeffrey Goldberg end up in this text thread by Laura Ingram? And I want to play this for you. And the clip begins just after Waltz has claimed, I don't really know Jeff Goldberg. I've never really spoken to him.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
perhaps even scandal, of Trump's second term, which is the signal text messaging security breach, in which Jeffrey Goldberg, who was a guest on the show earlier this week, editor of the Atlantic Magazine, became the recipient of this days-long series of text messages in which the most senior officials in the White House discuss plans for an attack on Houthi terrorists in Yemen.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Well, if you have somebody else's contact, and then somehow it gets sucked in. Oh, someone sent you that contact.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
The claim here is that somehow Jeff Goldberg's number got sucked in. into his phone and then into his signal. I have signal on my phone. I'm sure all of you do. And that's not my understanding of how this works. Signal, essentially, is a reflection of the contacts in the rest of your phone.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And it's hard to imagine a phone just sucking up a prominent journalist's phone number from the ether, right? So what do we make of that explanation?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Right. And it's easy to make a mistake in this app, potentially, like you said, which is why senior government officials, especially those who traffic in really confidential information, aren't supposed to communicate on an app like this.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And yet, the White House and everyone around the president are still hyper-focused on the mistake of a journalist being added to the chat, not the chat being the place where the conversation was happening. I want to go back to just Waltz for a second, because it does seem like the bat signal has gone out from the White House that Waltz is the problem here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And once that message has gone out, you see it reflected and amplified in the world of conservative media. Are we approaching the moment where that world has decided that Waltz needs to go? And is that a possibility?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Let's talk about this broader question of accountability here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Is there any possibility of an investigation into what happened here, or are we quite certain that that's just never going to happen for the reasons I think we talked about at the very beginning, which is that this administration is staffed with loyalists who have virtually no incentive to open an investigation that might lead somewhere bad, perhaps to one of the people with the antibodies, Maggie, like you just said?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And what we know through multiple days of disclosures from Jeff Goldberg and The Atlantic is that those texts were very detailed, down to the type of aircraft to be used, precise timing of attacks. And that's really where I want to start. Settle for us, if you can, was this information in these texts classified or not? Eric, what do you say?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
I mean, there are going to be people in Trump's orbit and his supporters who say this approach overall, don't investigate, don't feel like you have to apologize for any of this, makes complete sense. Because in their minds, this is being totally blown out of proportion by Democrats and by the news media.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
But I have to imagine a lot of the public, especially the moderate political public, is wondering, why not just issue some kind of mea culpa here? You know, just acknowledge it's not a great idea to have had this conversation on text and say so. Say we learned a valuable lesson. The stakes here were actually high and we're not going to do this again.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Is there anyone in the White House who's advising the president and those around him to think about that, to look beyond their anger at Jeffrey Goldberg and The Atlantic for getting these texts and publishing them and imagine that there is a group of voters in this country who just want this administration to hold itself accountable?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
You could argue, though, that this is already starting to backfire. We're starting now to see conservatives, prominent ones, not just go after Mike Waltz, but pretty much say to the president, this doesn't seem like the wise approach. So I want to play what Dave Portnoy of Barstool Sports had to say. He's someone... who we generally associate with the Trump-backing manosphere.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
He endorsed Trump in this last election. This is what he had to say about the way that the president and the administration have handled this whole thing so far.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Eric, it feels like the real risk for Trump here is not going to be news cycles or necessarily the entire conservative movement turning on him, although there's a possibility of that happening over time. It's that this current strategy of deny, dodge, redirect persists and that the military, active and veteran, sees in this incident that
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Like you said, an administration being careless with the lives of soldiers on top of all the things that this administration has already done to the military and to veterans. Made significant cuts, made it harder for veterans to get quick care at the VA. And this is a group of Americans who, by and large, support this president. And it seems like a strange group to risk alienating them.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
But of course, Maggie, if the president succeeds in making this about Jeffrey Goldberg and sensationalistic, in their words, left-wing media storytelling, then redirection might ultimately make this not about the military, not about the idea that the wrong platform was used for a very dangerous conversation. So that's potentially going to be a successful strategy.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Well, Maggie and Julian and Eric, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. On Thursday afternoon, a federal judge ordered several Trump administration officials, including Mike Waltz and Pete Hegseth, to preserve all of the messages they exchanged over Signal in the days leading up to the attack on the Houthis.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And why do they say it has to be classified? Can you just explain that?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
The order came in response to a lawsuit filed this week by a watchdog group that accused the officials of violating federal records laws by using Signal to plan the attack.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Here's what else you need to know today. On Thursday, the White House said it would lay off 10,000 employees at the Department of Health and Human Services, which oversees medical care, food, and drugs.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
In a video, the department's leader, Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., said that the agency's spending had ballooned, but that its effectiveness had diminished, and that it was time for a major change.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And in a surprise move, President Trump has asked his choice to be the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Republican Representative Elise Stefanik of New York, to return to Congress rather than join his cabinet. The decision was motivated by simple congressional math.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Republicans hold the House by an extremely slim margin that could complicate Trump's plans to pass major legislation, including tax cuts. As a result, Trump now believes that Stefanik is more valuable to him in the House than at the United Nations. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Alex Stern, and Shannon Lin.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
It was edited by Paige Cowett and Lexi Diao and contains original music from Marion Lozano and Dan Powell and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Right, and I just want to give an example of some of the language in the text messages that were sent by Pete Hexeth, the defense secretary. This is a quote. 1410, more F-18s launch, parentheses, second strike package. 1415, so five minutes later, strike drones on target. So it's really specific. Maggie, do you have a sense of, given what—
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Eric and Julian just said, why senior officials from the Trump administration who were on these text chains are so definitively denying that anything in those messages were classified.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
I spoke with three of my colleagues, national security reporter Eric Schmidt, intelligence reporter Julian Barnes, and White House correspondent Maggie Haberman. It's Friday, March 28th. Are you all situated in that tiny little adorable studio?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
I mean, two of them, Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, CIA Director John Ratcliffe, happened to be testifying before Congress this week, and of course they're asked about this, and repeatedly they say none of this happened. So are they applying some kind of a legal definition that perhaps lies outside of what our colleagues are describing? Is this a political explanation?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Are they just kind of daring the political system to hold them accountable for what might not be a true statement? How do you think about that?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Right. They control the FBI. Right. Well, let's talk a bit more about what you just mentioned, that President Trump is introducing some very notable ambiguity into this classification question. He was in the Oval Office. I just want to play what he said and have you all process it. Do you still believe nothing classified was shared?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
That does not sound to my ears like somebody backing up the claims of two very important deputies before Congress, right?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Got it. Of course, at the heart of this classification debate is the question of just how dangerous the information in these texts really is to soldiers. And we've started to think about that in this conversation. But I want to get into real detail about it because it seems so important. And I wonder if we can even imagine, Eric or Julian, because you've covered this previously,
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
really closely over the past few days, the scenarios in which this information becomes a danger to U.S. soldiers who were about to carry out this attack in Yemen. I feel like it would really help listeners if we could get specific about the idea of how this might be dangerous.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Even though the texts don't specify targets and precise locations of where U.S. planes are going to be.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
So the danger you're suggesting is perhaps China had been already living inside the phone of one of the 20 participants on this text thread.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Okay, well, get comfortable, because you're really close to each other, and I appreciate it. And we're going to be here for a while. And you're going to be here for a little while. So, friends, welcome back to The Roundtable. Maggie, thank you for being here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Right. So you're saying the Houthis in Yemen are essentially a few degrees removed, potentially, from being able to obtain what was being said in this... text thread, in theory, and there's no indication that that happened, but that's why the specificity of the F-18s and the launch times matter, because their defense systems could then be kicked into higher gear.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Eric, you've spent some time talking to rank-and-file service members in the military about their reaction to all of this, the use of this platform, the level of detail, the danger it poses. may have posed to those carrying out the attack. What are they telling you?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Eric, welcome to this format of the show. I think your first time doing it.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
So in short, it sounds like all these folks are saying that this is not consistent with the version of Pete Hegseth that Pete Hegseth has presented in this short time that he's been running the U.S. military.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Okay, well, when we come back, we're going to discuss the question of who is really at fault here for the existence and the information conveyed on this text thread and the White House campaign so far to resist accountability. So we'll be right back.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And Julian, this is your second day in a row on the show, so thank you for your endurance.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Maggie, you mentioned that President Trump seems to be backing away from the certitude of those around him that nothing was classified in these chats. But I'm also wondering, just based on your reporting, how mad or not is Trump about the very existence of this crisis?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Right, and just to explain, he does not like Jeffrey Goldberg for a number of reasons, including the fact that Jeff Goldberg broke the story, which the Trump White House has denied, that in the first term, Trump called U.S. soldiers who had been killed suckers and losers, which was, of course, extremely offensive to the veteran community.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
So you're all in D.C., I'm in New York. It is, just to timestamp this conversation in case anything changes, 11.30 a.m. on Thursday. The story that we are going to be spending the entire conversation focused on is what I think of as really the first major blow-up, blunder conversation
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
But, Maggie, I want to zero in, and Julie and Eric as well, on what you just said about what the president is most focused on, not the fact that Traditional security protocols seem to have been flouted here with text messages that were on a commercial app rather than formal government channels.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
But the fact that a journalist was on the text, and if that's what he's focused on, then who does he blame for that?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
I have noticed, and I wonder, Eric, if you've noticed this as well, that as Maggie's getting at, the president has decided to shift this story away from Pete Hegseth. A couple nights ago, he was in the Oval Office and said something along the lines of, how is this about Hegseth? How do you get to Hegseth? And... kind of left unsaid was, this is a Mike Waltz story.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
This is a story about my national security advisor. And I wonder if you think that's as much about suspicion of Waltz and caring about Jeff Goldberg being on the thread, or is it about him just genuinely wanting to shield Pete Hegseth?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Well, to that point, if you subscribe to this ascendant, now victorious, America first worldview that has now dominated the party under Trump, isn't this quite an achievement? The United States is going to recoup the money it spent in Ukraine with no commitment to spend much more or to ever put American troops in harm's way in Ukraine in a war that Trump and many Republicans don't think the U.S.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Right. The best way to get America's support is to allow us to have a financial interest in you not being overrun by your larger needs. That's right. Which in this case, he's just struck.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Mm-hmm. I just want to end by asking for a larger reflection on all this deal-making. We started, of course, in Congress. Now we've gotten to this deal with Ukraine. But if you zoom out even further and you think about all the Trump deals that have been struck since he was inaugurated, you've got to deal with Canada on tariffs. You've got to deal with Mexico on tariffs.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
On top of that, the prime minister of the UK was just at the White House offering Trump a deal of his own to increase the UK's defense spending, something that, as we've hinted at here, Trump has asked all European countries to do so that they are less reliant on United States defense spending. And...
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
When you think about it, the common thread here is Trump's allies, and stay with me, this is one of those heady stretch ending questions, his allies both within his party and America's allies across the world are all kind of bending to him in ways that don't seem to hew to tradition or in some cases to their own best interests.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
And just to give you a vivid example of that knee bending and just how vivid it is, right before we started taping, the prime minister of the UK handed Donald Trump a letter from King Charles. And I want to play you that scene.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Not an executive action, which is pretty much to fine this president.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
I mean, just to really summarize what has happened in this scene, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, having basically been summoned to Washington to make sure that Trump knows that he's willing to have less U.S. security in Europe... and instead that the UK will spend more on its own security, follows up by saying, oh, and by the way, our king wants to have you for dinner.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
It's going to be amazing. It's going to be historic. The scene is one of kind of, let's just put it really plainly, self-debasement. in the name of impressing Donald Trump.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
I think we all might have imagined that Trump's victory in the U.S. meant that there would be lots of dealmaking from within the Republican Party and concessions. But this is something else entirely. These are America's strongest allies saying, where do you need me? What do you want? Here's the deal.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
And it's just very striking what an extraordinary exercise of power we're seeing from this president.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
That's a very intriguing metaphor. Katie, can you explain what this half-man, half-horse thing was that ends up before Congress?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
And that can be minerals, literally something from the ground, or it can be dinner with the king.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Well, my thanks to all three of you, Maggie, Zolan, Katie. See you again soon.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
On Friday afternoon, President Zelensky traveled to the White House for a meeting with President Trump, where the two were expected to sign the mineral deal that's been negotiated over the past few days. But at the meeting in the Oval Office, Zelensky started to try to explain the history of the war and was interrupted by Vice President J.D. Vance.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
In response, Zelensky seemed to warn Vance that before long, the United States itself could be threatened by Russian aggression.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
The meeting then quickly devolved into a shouting match, with Trump and Vance berating Zelensky in front of live television cameras.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Trump then appeared to try to strong-arm Zelensky into making a peace deal with Russia on whatever terms the United States wants.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Zelensky was then told to leave the White House. He did so without signing the mineral deal. After the meeting, President Trump posted about Zelensky on social media, saying, quote, he disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he's ready for peace.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Here's what else you need to know today. In the latest legal setback to the president's cost cutting efforts, a federal judge has barred the Office of Personnel Management from ordering the termination of thousands of probationary workers.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
The judge ruled that the firings, which have occurred across federal agencies, were illegal because, he argued, only individual agencies have the power to hire and fire their own workers. As a result, the Office of Personnel Management, he found, cannot order firings beyond its own staff, as it recently has.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
And Republican lawmakers in Iowa have overwhelmingly passed a bill to end the state's civil rights protections for transgender people.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
If signed into law by the state's Republican governor, the legislation would remove trans identity from a list of protected groups that employers, businesses, and landlords may not discriminate against, and would make Iowa the first state in the country to revoke such protections. Today's episode was produced by Carlos Prieto and Eric Krupke. It was edited by Rachel Quester and M.J. Davis-Lynn.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Contains original music by Diane Wong, Dan Powell, Rowe Nimisto, and Alishaba Etube. And was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Right. That's a huge part of their message. It's a huge part of their brand. It's a huge part of the Republican Party identity for the last decade.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
From New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. This week, the president proposed two deals, one at home, the other abroad, that would require allies to put his needs ahead of theirs. And in both cases, Trump got exactly what he wanted.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
And so what happens once this half-man, half-horse, I'm just going to keep saying that as many times as I can, reaches the House floor?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
To understand why, I spoke with three of my colleagues, White House correspondents Maggie Haberman and Zolan Kano-Youngs, and congressional correspondent Katie Edmondson. It's Friday, February 28th. So friends... Welcome back, all three of you, to The Roundtable. Zolan and Katie, thank you for being in our Washington studio. Good to have you.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
I don't think we can let what you just said about Medicare and Medicaid fly by. That's a biggie in American politics. So whoever wants to take this on, what about this plan seems to many to require touching the third rail of American politics, which is potentially cutting these two huge health programs that millions and millions of Americans rely on?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Well, let's talk about how that, to use your word, Zolan saga unfolds in Congress when the president starts to ask questions. members of his party in Congress to pass this unwieldy thing that might require, as you all said, cuts to Medicare and Medicaid.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Or who just, I think I saw this, had a baby like a month ago.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Let's focus for just a second on the question of spending and debt, which would seem to be the thing that these defectors principally were upset about. How much is this budget going to increase the U.S. debt?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Yeah, it's a big number. And this is where, and Zolan, Maggie, I'm curious what you think. We know where many members of the Republican Party stand on this. House Republicans have ousted speakers over failures to rein in spending and be tough enough on the debt. And here comes the president kind of bulldozing those who raise that question about spending and debt.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
And that creates a really complicated and I think I'd argue incoherent message about what the Republican brand is, especially in Congress, but also at the White House. Is it the party that cares about deficit and doge and cutting spending and getting rid of people so that we have a smaller government? Or is it the party that creates additional pressure
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
How presumptuous of me. There's an order to this all. The host says hello, and the guest, you can't just get ahead of it. You can't just circumvent it.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Got it. Back then, Republicans touching the Affordable Care Act backfired for them. Democrats hope that if they touch Medicaid now, it will backfire once again.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Okay, so that was the congressional deal-making this week. When we come back, we're going to talk about the international deal that the president struck. We'll be right back. Welcome back, Solon, Katie, Maggie. We have talked on the show before around this very table about a theoretical deal that Trump had wanted to make with Ukraine that would require Ukraine to basically compensate the U.S.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
for all the military assistance necessary that the U.S. has given Ukraine in its war against Russia. It started off as very theoretical and notional, but now it's becoming an actual reality, and Ukraine's leader, Volodymyr Zelensky, is now headed to Washington to make it official on Friday. Zolan, how did this all start and become what it now is?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
That's the plan. You ready? Maggie, thank you very much for being here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
And it might be left without some rare earth minerals that would help it pay for its own defense if it were to accept this deal. Maggie, how should we understand this initial offer that on its face seems like a very good deal for the U.S. and not much of a deal at all for Ukraine?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
So this was a week, I would argue, of deal-making by President Trump. And we are going to spend time on two of those deals. And you've all been carefully selected because of your relationship to these deals. The first deal was with Congress, and there was a lot of drama surrounding this one, as there often is with Congress. Maggie, just to start, what was this?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
But that doesn't seem like a deal the president of... Ukraine would sign, and yet, Zolan, he's about to arrive in Washington and sign it. So at some point, he decides that even though he's not really getting anything from it, it's still somehow worthwhile.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Katie, is this the death, like the official death, of anything resembling the conventional Republican approach to Russia and containing its territorial aggression and its previous mandate to protect Ukraine?
The Daily
The Year in Music
Hey, it's Michael. Today, our coverage of the year in arts and in culture continues with guest host Melissa Kirsch speaking to Times critics, reporters, and editors. Take a listen.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Over the past 48 hours, President Trump banned DEI programming in the federal government, punished three former aides by taking away their security detail, and celebrated the release of hundreds of January 6th rioters and planners —
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
It's a pretty extraordinary, David, reimagining of the rule of law. Is that perhaps too delicate a phrasing?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
What exactly, Zolan, had the policy been, and what has Trump just changed it to?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I just want to make explicit what I think you're saying. There are now freed loyalists of Trump who owe their freedom to him, you're suggesting, who may now operate distinctly in his defense in whatever way they think necessary.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And when, Maggie, those Republican lawmakers have said something about these pardons, they've used a phrase over and over again. It felt like they had all gotten together in a room and decided on the phrase. The phrase was, we want to look forward, not backward. And yet, Zolan, in one important respect, congressional Republicans do want to look backward.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
It's the completion of the rewriting of that history. Will Congress, Maggie, officially? I mean, is this going to happen? Is Congress going to investigate the investigation of January 6th?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Well, you have queued up my final question to you all, which is about the pardons that outgoing President Biden issued for his family members. And as you just said, Maggie, for members of the January 6th committee and for Dr. Anthony Fauci and Mark Milley, I want to read you something about that our esteemed colleague Ezra Klein wrote about that decision. This is what he said.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Quote, the Biden of 2020 would have done none of this. In key cases, like the family pardons, he said he would not do this, and then he did. This feels in its own way like Biden's submission to the new regime, by which Ezra means Trump. The powers of the presidency are whatever the president is allowed to get away with.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Thank you very much. In an interview a couple of nights ago with Sean Hannity, Donald Trump noted who outgoing President Biden did not give a pardon to.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
He noted that Biden did not give a pardon to himself. If you look at it, it all had to do with him.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I'm going to point out what listeners may recognize as a bit of an irony of Trump accusing relatives of a president of making money off of his name.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Well, Maggie and David and Zolan, thank you very much.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Thank you. Thank you, Michael. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Thursday, a federal judge temporarily blocked Trump's executive order seeking to end birthright citizenship, calling it, quote, blatantly unconstitutional.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Trump's order, signed on his first day in office, seeks to end a right to citizenship for children born in the United States that was first established in the 14th Amendment. In his ruling, the judge was unsparing, saying the fact that any lawyer ever believed that Trump's executive order was legal boggles the mind. And the U.S.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Senate appears poised to confirm Pete Hegseth as the next secretary of defense. In a 51-49 vote on Thursday, Republicans voted to break a Democratic filibuster aimed at blocking his confirmation.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Democrats have tried, so far unsuccessfully, to persuade Republicans to reject Hegseth, citing a new statement from his former sister-in-law, who described him as frequently intoxicated and abusive toward his second wife. Hegseth has denied those claims, and his confirmation is expected as soon as tonight. Today's episode was produced by Olivia Nat, Will Reed, and Carlos Prieto.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
It was edited by Rachel Quester and Devin Taylor, contains original music by Diane Wong and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I want to make sure I understand how widespread DEI programs and personnel have been in the government to understand the impact of these executive orders. The executive orders and actions that attempt to root it out, essentially to forbid it, and the ones that attempt to encourage employees to report on issues essentially what's now banned attempt at enforcing DEI.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Who among you has a sense of just how much government we're talking about here?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Today, I talked through all of that with three of my Times colleagues, White House reporters Maggie Haberman, Zolan Kano-Youngs, and David Sanger. It's Friday, January 24th. Friends, welcome back to The Roundtable. Maggie, Zolan, David, thank you for being here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I want to be sure that we meet this argument from whether it's Pete Hegseth or Donald Trump or Elon Musk on its own terms. And I listened, David, to Pete Hegseth talk about this. The way he put it was that he wanted to be sure that standards for everyone in the military were equal, not equitable. And this is a quote. That's a very different word.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And in his inaugural speech, what President Trump said is he would forge a society, this is a quote, that is colorblind and merit-based. What I hear them saying is that diversity as something to be prized and sought in its own right is out. What's in, they're saying, is a merit-based system in which diversity might be an outcome, but it's never the goal.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Clearly what stood out to many people about the way Trump approached this whole issue was the element of Tell us about colleagues who are doing this thing when they shouldn't be. To some, it had kind of shades of McCarthyism. Rat out your colleagues.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And, Maggie, you have spent a fair amount of time over the past few days reporting on a related subject, which is the ways in which the president and those around him are starting to somewhat systematically – target people they don't want to be in this administration and even former Trump officials who they see as disloyal, who they want to begin to take perks away from?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
You're saying these loyalty tests are very arbitrary. It's making it hard to hire. And it's based on whoever is kind of up or down in Trump's mind at any given moment.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Which former officials, and I'm assuming this relates to the question of loyalty, what did they do to make Trump feel they were disloyal?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Thank you. Last time the three of you were on the show, your locations were incredibly exotic. Mar-a-Lago, Italy... Where were you, Maggie? Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. Today we join you from two boring studios on the East Coast. We are taping this on Thursday afternoon at the end of week one of the Trump presidency, and what a week it has been.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Right. I mean, taken together, the moves on DEI, especially the encouragement to turn in colleagues who are still doing DEI work now that it's forbidden, the firings, the removal of security for former Trump officials who are facing real threats but are seen as disloyal. I was about to ask you what it all adds up to, but I think that would be an abdication of my role as synthesizer.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I think what it clearly adds up to is dissent will not be remotely tolerated in this second Trump term.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I don't think it's a stretch to say that in record time President Trump has begun to remake both the federal government and arguably American society in his image in just a few days. And I want to start with late-breaking policy that we haven't covered on the show from the White House, and that is around DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And you're saying that it's sort of in Trump's DNA to ferret out those who would in any way get in his way, kind of stem to root, root to stem.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Okay, welcome back. I want to turn now to presidential pardons. In the days since President Trump issued these blanket pardons and commutations, we've gotten a sense of just how blanket they actually are because three of the people who were given the longest prison sentences for their role in the assault on the Capitol have come out of prison.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Enrique Tarrio, ex-leader of the Proud Boys, who had been sentenced to 22 years for seditious conspiracy. Stuart Rhodes of the Oath Keepers, sentenced to 18 years for the same charge. Joe Biggs, sentenced to 17 years for that charge of seditious conspiracy, which is pretty much the most serious crime you can be accused of committing against your own government.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Maggie, do you think Trump knew who was going to be released when he issued these blanket commutations and pardons, given what we're now learning?
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. As President Trump has rolled out his economic agenda, the assumption was that he would quickly scale back his most aggressive policies once they began to scare consumers and the financial markets. That assumption turned out to be wrong. Today,
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And you have been trying to understand what that looks like and why it is. So tell us what you found.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
All that makes sense. But what Trump is doing now is much, much bigger when it comes to tariffs than what he did in his first term. And as a result, the risk of potential economic costs is much higher than in the first term. So far, it's not just been a wobbly stock market, but rapidly falling consumer confidence, for example.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And yet, none of those problematic data points are acting as any kind of a break on it.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
All of which is to say that Trump thinks the real lesson of Term 1 when it comes to tariffs is that he went too small on tariffs and the costs were low. And if he can finally go much bigger on tariffs now in Term 2 because he's got the right advisors in place, the payoffs will be much bigger. The costs will remain low. But that feels like a real apples to oranges kind of comparison. Yeah.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Are there people inside the administration saying to the president, look, Mr. President, of course we understand why you want to push for tariffs. We know how central it is to your message and your belief system. But you should know you're not really communicating it quite right. And the markets are very anxious about it. Perhaps there's something you can do differently.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
But its existence suggests that there's an understanding among the president's top aides and economic advisors that there's a problem here.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And I've watched some of those interviews, and it seems worth saying how complicated it has become. I've seen the president's economic advisors go on TV and get asked a question like, can you please help us understand why the president is now saying that this new approach to tariffs might ultimately bring us into a recession? And the question is basically like, isn't that bad?
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Don't you not want that? And then the advisor then has to turn around and say, well, it would be a small recession. But it's a very tough position to put your economic aides
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Hmm. You seem to be suggesting that on some level, they might not really believe in this set of policies, but they do have to defend it.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
What does President Trump... or think about the fact that the majority of economists fundamentally disagree with him about the long-term prospects for tariffs. We just talked about this with Ben Castleman. He said that there's...
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
pretty clearly a consensus that the short-term pain won't necessarily lead to the long-term gain of reindustrialization across the United States as a result of these tariffs. So what you may end up getting is not just short-term pain, but long-term pain without much gain.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Is it right to think Donald Trump is kind of gambling his second term on tariffs? Yes.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Well, the endgame one might presume, and you've hinted at this, is that the polls are pretty important to Donald Trump. He's never seemed to have a long-term stomach for unpopularity. And everything you've said here suggests that he might be able to disregard... markets for a while and the views of Wall Street. He doesn't need re-election.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And he fundamentally believes in tariffs and has for a very long time and thinks he didn't get a shot to do it as big as he wished in the first term, so he's going to do it in this term.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
But if in a year, year and a half, two years, we're looking at polling that shows that the majority of Americans think he's mishandling the economy and prices are up and the long-term gain isn't arrived, but the short-term pain is very present, don't we expect that that he would change his approach to these tariffs?
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Or is the answer, no, not at all, because he really thinks that the only way to prove the experts wrong is to remain committed to it?
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Right, and nothing can cost an incumbent president control of Congress more than a problematic economy, high prices—
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
On Thursday, President Trump signed an executive order instructing his education secretary to begin dismantling the Department of Education.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Because the department was created by an act of Congress, it cannot be shut down without congressional action, something Trump called for on Thursday night. For now, the department will continue to carry out functions required by law, such as administering federal student aid and funding for special education.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And the Times reports that Elon Musk's already enormous access and influence within the federal government are set to expand later today when he is briefed on the U.S. military's plans for any future war with China. That briefing will likely highlight Musk's many conflicts of interest, since he runs multiple businesses that hold government contracts, including with the Department of Defense.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Today's episode was produced by Mary Wilson, Will Reed, and Rochelle Banja. It was edited by Mark George and Chris Haxell, contains original music by Marian Lozano and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landverk of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
But the risk, Ben, and I've learned this from you over the years, is that those eroding confidence and sentiment numbers become a self-fulfilling prophecy and they end up dragging down the hard economic numbers you just referred to.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Well, let's talk about those reasons. Let's talk about the mechanics of these confidence numbers falling so precipitously. In my mind, there are two major things that the president has done that have affected the economy to what degree I don't quite understand. The first being his very aggressive and abrupt efforts to shrink the government, laying off thousands of workers, closing agencies.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And the second, of course, is the tariffs he's imposed on goods imported into the U.S. Let's start with the cost-cutting to the government and how that has affected all the things you just talked about.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
My colleagues, economics reporter Ben Castleman and White House reporter Maggie Haberman, on why the Trump economic plan may be backfiring and why Trump doesn't seem to mind. It's Friday, March 21st. Hey, Ben. Hi, Michael. Good to have you back in the studio. It's been a while.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
So this is how cutting government spending or threatening to withhold it starts to really affect consumer and business sentiment. And in this case, academic sentiment, but their hires as well.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
The fact that thousands of people who work at the Veterans Affairs Department have just lost their jobs might influence how you feel about those benefits.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Okay, so that's how the president's approach to cutting the government significantly is impacting businesses. the feelings around the economy, and in some cases, behavior in the economy. Let's turn to his approach to tariffs and how that helps us understand these problematic numbers that you've been seeing over the past few weeks.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Which means the tariffs are very quickly having a financial impact.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Well, one reason why this nervousness seems understandable is that the president himself has started to change the way he talks about tariffs. Now, he seems to be acknowledging that tariffs can actually really be disruptive to the economy.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
A period potentially of even recession.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Is that a moment where we should give him points for candor or be startled by the fact that he's willing to pursue a set of policies that might bring us into a recession, which is never really any president's idea of a good set of policies? Right.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
As you know, we're two months into the Trump administration and therefore two months into the Trump economy. And he comes to office with a set of sweeping economic promises that the business community and the stock market and polling shows Americans generally are very excited about. More prosperity, lower costs, lower regulation, lower taxes. The market booms when he gets elected.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
What makes these economists confident that there won't be a golden era on the other end of this bloodletting, tough medicine pain?
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
But the president does not seem remotely deterred by what the economists say.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
You're saying the only certainty that has emerged from the first two months of this Trump economic agenda is, is uncertainty and, to some real degree, pain.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Stock market is surging. And then Trump starts to actually put his fingerprints on the economy. And the stock market has, over the past few weeks, been plunging. And now the Federal Reserve is telling us that the country's financial outlook is pretty unsteady. And Trump himself is now acknowledging that his plans may wreak a certain amount of havoc on the economy.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
After the break, Maggie Haberman on what the growing blowback over the economy has looked like from inside the White House. We'll be right back. So, Maggie, typically when economic data starts to show that a president's agenda is backfiring, the president tries to correct for it. That does not seem to be the case here with President Trump.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Elizabeth, how big a deal is this rewriting of our understanding of these agencies' relationship to the presidency? One way in which it would seem to matter is, as Charlie's hinting at, these were congressionally created agencies, congressionally insulated from the president. And so by taking that away, the president would seem to be pretty clearly encroaching on Congress's authority.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
This is the kind of loaded gun theory, as one of the producers on our team put it, that you want to be careful with the authority you grant yourself because you're not going to be president forever.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
I would disagree with collapsing into a heap, but yes. Really appreciate all of you being here. Today's loose theme is a rewriting of history in three parts. And the first place where in many minds history is being rewritten over the past few days is the war in Ukraine. And the backdrop...
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Finally, our third, our final topic where history has been rewritten over the past few days, and that is rewriting the place of the Kennedy Center, of all places, which is designed to be the cultural center for the entire nation. It's home to the National Symphony Orchestra, the Washington National Opera.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
It has now been cast by the president as a woke purveyor of drag shows that target children, and the president has taken it over, which I don't think most of us even knew he had the power to do. Elizabeth, in your new role as a... grand writer at large of all things happening in the Capitol, you have tried to understand this saga.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
How did this even end up on the president's radar within the first few weeks of his presidency?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
We should say there's an irony to this, of course, because Norman Lear was involved in creating a show I think of as quite kind of adjacent to the Trump era, which is All in the Family, a very populist show about a family in Queens.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
is that Donald Trump began unilateral talks with Russia about ending the war in Ukraine without Ukraine's input, which we talked about in our roundtable last Friday. Zolan, if you would pick up the plot for us
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
I mean, Zolan, do you have any sense of what the president... now that he has essentially taken over the Kennedy Center, wants it to be under his supervision? And do we think he's actually going to play a supervisory role in the programming of this place?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
So just to end this conversation, how should we think about these three, if we agree on these terms, kind of rewritings of history taken together? My own sense, I'll offer my own theory, is that when it comes to Donald Trump, there is this longstanding proven instinct to frame everything as much as possible as being in crisis, right? If you're a foe of Trump, it's the worst version of that person.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
An institution is never just flawed, it's a failure. Something isn't just problematic, it's a crisis. There's not just waste in the government, it's corruption. And it would seem that that framework, which in many cases leads to a rewriting of a history, then justifies the depth and sweep of the changes that he wants to make.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
That's at least how I have been thinking about this concept of rewriting history. I'm curious what you all think.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Well, to all three of you, my thanks. Elizabeth and Charlie Zolan, really good to have you. Thank you.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
On Thursday, the U.S. Senate confirmed Kash Patel, President Trump's controversial choice to lead the FBI, despite his long history of attacking the bureau and calling for the investigation of Trump's political enemies. Democrats had hoped to block Patel, who they fear will carry out a campaign of retribution within the FBI. But only two Senate Republicans joined them in voting against Patel.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
New York Governor Kathy Hochul said she will not exercise her authority to remove New York City's Mayor Eric Adams from office. Many Democrats have asked her to take that step because of allegations that Adams entered a corrupt agreement with the Trump White House to drop federal bribery charges against him.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Instead, Hochul will impose strict new guardrails on Adams to ensure that he's accountable to New York City voters, not just to President Trump. Those guardrails include creating an inspector general to police the mayor's office and establishing a legal fund that would allow city officials to sue the Trump administration, even if Mayor Adams is unwilling to do so.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Remember, you can catch a new episode of The Interview right here tomorrow. David Marchese speaks with Pulitzer Prize-winning science writer Ed Yong about his years covering COVID and why, in his mind, we're thinking about bird flu in all the wrong ways.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Today's episode was produced by Aastha Chaturvedi and Mary Wilson. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Chris Haxell. Contains original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and Pat McCusker. And was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
And let me play that, Zolan, for all of us, because this is a moment I think worth lingering on, this specific remark from Trump.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
And the context is, as you just said, Zolan, the president is growing impatient with Zelensky's complaints that he's not involved in the conversations with Russia. He's saying, Zelensky, you've been in this war for three years. You had a chance to end it. In fact, you started it. And I just want to linger on the idea that,
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
of that particular remark, Elizabeth, because to many people's minds, that is not just false, but potentially a very deliberate rewriting of history.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
And what is the deliberateness of the strategy? I mean, what would be the rationale for saying this? If we assume that there is something deliberate about it, it didn't quite seem accidental.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
To make sense of all of that, I spoke with three of my colleagues, White House reporter Zolan Kano-Youngs, national security reporter Charlie Savage, and writer-at-large Elizabeth Bumiller. It's Friday, February 21st. Friends, welcome to The Roundtable, where we acknowledge week after week that covering this presidency requires multiple minds in the same room at the same time.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
I just want to make sure people understand what you're saying when you refer to the idea of Ukraine as a provocateur here. You mentioned NATO. I think we should just translate this for folks. The argument, and Putin makes it, and some foreign policy figures have made it less strongly than Putin, is that...
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
NATO's expansion, the growth of this defensive alliance that was created and designed to contain Russia's territorial ambitions, over time, especially as it contemplates allowing Ukraine in, becomes a provocation to Russia. Is that in some ways what Trump is parroting here?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
I mean, Elizabeth, you posited it may be that he needs to villainize Zelensky in order to allow for a peace deal that cuts Zelensky out. But is he adopting this larger foreign policy framework as well?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. This week, the president falsely claimed that Ukraine started the war against Russia. ordered independent federal agencies created by Congress to answer directly to him, and installed himself as the leader of Washington's premier cultural institution.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Right. Well, what do we think the answer is? I mean, that isn't what's actually happened yet. Do we think that's the plan?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Do you think that's a logical next step, Charlie? The United States leaving this military alliance it created to protect Europe from Russia?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
I do want to talk about where, even within this framework of Trump doing some serious rewriting of history, there is an element where he would not seem to be rewriting history, where he would seem to be exactly where many Americans are. And that is in saying... that it's time for this conflict to end. Polling consistently shows that's where more and more Americans are.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
And also that this would seem to be a European problem more than it would be an American problem. One of the comments Trump made over the past few days that got less attention than the comments he made about Ukraine starting the war or when he called Zelensky a dictator, which we haven't even talked about, is that he said there's an ocean between us and all of this conflict.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
And I took that naturally to mean, Europe, it's your turn to deal with all of this.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Right. Charles, you had mentioned that some Republicans – in Congress find Trump's approach to Ukraine. I believe your word was grotesque. But so far, they're not doing much about that. The Senate Majority Leader John Thune was asked about the comments that Trump has been making specifically that Ukraine's Zelensky started this war. And his answer was basically, I don't want to talk about that.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
I just want this conflict to come to an end. How much does that kind of a response have to do with, Zolan and Elizabeth, what you're saying? The public sentiment has moved on. What's the point of even bringing up what has been longstanding Republican hawkishness against Russia?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
I want to thank you all for being here. Charlie. Thank you. Zolan. Thank you. Good to see you. And Elizabeth, making your debut here in this format. Thank you. And Elizabeth... Your resume requires just a little bit of an explanation. You were, until very recently, Charlie and Zolan's boss.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
OK, well, we're going to take a break and when we come back, talk about how Trump is starting to rewrite something else, which is the president's relationship to power. We'll be right back. Okay, welcome back.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
I want to turn Charlie, Elizabeth, and Zolan to the second place where the White House seems to be rewriting or revising history, and that's through an executive order he signed this past week dealing with independent agencies. Now, Professor Savage, Charlie, this is literally your wheelhouse.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
Can you just start by explaining what an independent agency is and what the president's order has done to them?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
This is helpful. So what does this executive order do to what you just described?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Rewriting Histories
You were the Washington bureau chief overseeing all of our coverage of really the entire federal government during the first Trump administration and the entire Biden presidency, after which I think you justifiably collapsed into a heap and I assume...
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Maggie, I want to play a brief clip of how Donald Trump has been experiencing this ring kissing that Andrew has just described. He was asked about it and this is what he said.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And unlike many of the threatened partial or full government shutdowns that have happened over the past couple of years, this one kind of came out of nowhere, right? Does that feel like an accurate statement? Who here wants to jump in? Katie?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Hmm. Biden, the aberration. Trump, the second term president. Correct. Just thinking about where we started this conversation with a shutdown. These executives, Andrew, who are currying Trump's favor, who are showing up at Mar-a-Lago for dinner, when they see someone like Elon Musk do what he just did, do they think to themselves, oh, look, we really can have tons of influence here. Wow.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
We can genuinely change policy if we get in early enough and then make the call later on.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
That's interesting, especially when you consider that one of the things that happened between then, 2016, and now is January 6th. And yet, you're saying less stigma. The favor occurring that has stood out to many of us in the news media over the past week, I think, quite logically, because we're somewhat self-absorbed, is the ring kissing from media companies.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And you mentioned Jeff Bezos going down there, the owner of the Washington Post. Well, what happened several weeks before the election, of course, was that at Jeff Bezos's request, the Washington Post pulled Hell Didn't Run, an editorial that was going to be endorsing Kamala Harris for president. That happened at the L.A. Times as well.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And there's this concept emerging, a fear within the media that some major media companies are beginning to engage in something that has been dubbed anticipatory obedience. And it's in that context that we get ABC News making a pretty consequential decision to settle a defamation lawsuit filed by Trump which seemed to many to be a capitulation to Trump's efforts to intimidate the news media.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Can you just meditate on that all for just a minute Andrew?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
I think he literally said, I'm in some ways the worst person to own this newspaper.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Well, that was a Freudian slip perhaps because ABC is owned by Disney. Disney is a major corporation that might not want to be in Trump's crosshairs.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Got it. So, Andrew, given what Maggie just said, essentially that Stephanopoulos made an on-air error and that ABC didn't then correct it, and this case is moving forward, back to you saying this is complicated and perhaps should be disentangled from anything else. Related to, for example, Bezos holding an editorial back.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
and perhaps alienate many of their viewers who thought, why can't you just admit you screwed up?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
I think, Andrew, you're making a persuasive case here that we shouldn't put all these things in one bucket. They're not entirely the same, especially the ABC defamation lawsuit.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
But no matter how you slice it, this has to be seen as a victory for Donald Trump, getting ABC News to settle a lawsuit and give him, I think, $15 million for his future presidential museum, and I think another million dollars for his legal fees. So to all three of you, just to kind of close this conversation out, if you are Donald Trump,
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Taking all of this in, the ability to trigger the explosion of a government spending bill when you're not even president, all of these CEOs who were once so skeptical coming down to have dinner with you to get into your good graces, getting a major news organization to settle a defamation lawsuit, which almost never happens.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Weeks before his inauguration, President-elect Trump is pushing the federal government toward a shutdown.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
This is starting to feel like an exceptionally empowering stretch of time for Donald Trump.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Okay, well, Maggie, Katie, Andrew, thank you all for your time. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, Michael.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Andrew, pick up where Katie leaves off. Elon Musk, not traditionally a participant in congressional spending bill negotiations. Why is he involved, and what exactly does he do?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Thank you, Michael. On Thursday night, the House voted down a last-minute proposal endorsed by President-elect Trump to keep the government open past Friday. Despite Trump's support, dozens of conservative Republicans opposed the plan, and nearly all House Democrats voted against it. There is now no clear path to avoiding a shutdown later tonight. We'll be right back.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
On Thursday, a French court convicted the ex-husband of Giselle Pellico and dozens of other men of raping her in a case that has shocked France and transformed Pellico into a feminist icon. Her husband, Dominique Pelico, received the maximum sentence of 20 years. The rest of the men were given sentences mostly ranging from six to nine years.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
After the verdicts were delivered, Giselle Pelico said that she was proud of her decision to open the trial up to the public and hoped that the outcome of the case might lead to a future in which men and women could live in harmony.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
A reminder, you can catch a new episode of The Interview right here tomorrow. David Marchese speaks with Jonathan Rumi about playing Jesus on the popular TV show The Chosen and the responses that Rumi gets from the show's fans.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Just describe what he did and what it ends up doing, and then Maggie will get to how Trump responds to that.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
For the reasons Katie suggested, that suddenly it's larded up with stuff?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Maggie, who's leading who by the nose here? I mean, Elon Musk does all that stuff. What does the president-elect do?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
The country's corporate titans are flocking to Mar-a-Lago to curry Trump's favor.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
OK, so, Katie, once Trump publicly agrees with Elon Musk, this is a bad bill. It should be blown up. Go back to the drawing board. What actually happens in the House that brings us to this point where it seems like we might actually have a government shutdown as of tonight at midnight or so?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Explicitly. So suddenly, on top of blowing up a bill that he and Elon Musk think are inconsistent with his efforts to make government smaller, he's suddenly now asking Congress to increase the debt ceiling. which is not very Republican and not very government efficient, right, Andrew?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And a major media company has capitulated to Trump's legal strategy of suing those who cross him. To make sense of all of this, I gathered three of my colleagues, senior political correspondent Maggie Haberman, congressional reporter Katie Edmondson, and financial columnist and the founder of Dealbook, Andrew Ross Sorkin. It's Friday, December 20th. Everyone. Welcome to The Roundtable.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And do it not on his watch, because it's not consistent with what he thinks of as his self-image, but on the current president's watch. But, Katie, Republicans hate voting for raising the debt ceiling, and Dems aren't going to give them a win right now, I suspect, because they don't want to give Donald Trump a win. Does that equal deadlock and therefore shutdown?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
To the degree that we think this is Elon Musk's first real exercise of raw power, even if Trump might have eventually gotten there, are we now witnessing the risk of empowering whimsical billionaires in the way that Trump is starting to do.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
I have the question, Maggie, of whether Trump assumes that because he's not yet president, a shutdown, if it happens for all the reasons that he wants it to now happen, won't be something he gets blamed for. Is that true? And is that actually pretty reasonable political thinking at this moment?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Trump benefits from this because he's really just delivering on what he said throughout the campaign he's going to do. You know, the whole point of having Doge was to carry out the promise of making government smaller and being really disruptive. What is more disruptive than before you're even president? Disrupting business as usual. So is this a very early and wise reading of the room by Trump?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
It's going to work out pretty well for him potentially.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Katie, Maggie, Andrew, thank you all for making time for us. Thank you for having us.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
We're going to take a break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about how all of this, I think, connects to a much larger phenomenon, which is just how bound up this second Trump presidency already has become, not just with Elon Musk, but with all of corporate America. So we'll be right back. Thank you. have started to really pay homage to President-elect Trump.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Okay, let's jump right in. We are talking to the three of you at a very live news moment, 12.33 p.m. on Thursday, with a government shutdown looming. And I mention that timing because events could change after we tape. There could, for example, be a deal to try to avert a shutdown. But I think shutdown is where we need to start this conversation.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And I've come to think of this as a kind of great genuflection. Can you just give us a description of what that has looked like, the scale of it? And then I know, Maggie, you have lots of perspective on that as well from your reporting at Mar-a-Lago.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
It could be that deportations of people with no criminal records start and there's a public outcry and it gets limited. It may be that the logistics of it are just too complicated and that limits the scale of it. But if we take him at his word, he will soon declare a national emergency and begin rounding up undocumented immigrants and deporting them at a scale that's without precedent.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
And so I want to understand how you, as somebody with a deportation order, and your family, how you're thinking about and planning for that possibility. What has that conversation with your husband and your two children, what has it been like?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Are you talking about the possibility of leaving the United States for Nicaragua? I mean, where are you when you're thinking about whether you're going to try to ride this out for another four years or contemplate something more dramatic?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Five years ago, we interviewed a woman who asked that we call her Herminia.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
You're worried that he will be exposed to a raid because that's an obvious place for immigration customs enforcement officials to go.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
You're worried that every time your husband calls you, he is also here without documentation. You're saying any time your phone rings during the Trump presidency, you're worried it's going to mean it's that call.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
You mentioned nightmares. Do you have a recurring nightmare about this moment?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
I mean, you just said that I'm going to stay here until I'm caught. I wonder how small you're willing to let your life become, how cautious you're willing to be. I mean, in order to have that work, are you willing to bring the shades back down? Oh, of course. Put the sign back on the door inside that tells your husband and your kids and visitors don't ever answer the door.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Home, work, work, home. Of course. No travel. No.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
I mean, that's a very small world in which to occupy.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
There may be those listening who think to themselves that you're describing a life of staying that is so circumscribed that you cannot even go to Walmart, that you cannot go to church, that your husband has to change his job. That sounds like a scenario in which it might be preferable to have some control over
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
over your life and decide when and how you leave and have the ability to pack your bags and say goodbye on your own terms rather than basically go into hiding and wait for something to happen.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Well, I remember your voice as well, and it's really nice to hear it again.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Unlike many migrants from Nicaragua, who were eventually granted protective status in the U.S., Herminia had arrived one year too late to qualify.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
And you're worried that if you leave and try to control the situation, then they will leave too. And you know that will be almost automatic for them based on how they feel about you.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Because it means your daughters get to stay here too. Yes. I feel like I have to ask you this. If you don't make it through the next four years and you are deported... Would you try to come back into the United States? Would you try to do this all over again?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
That chapter of your life, the American chapter, would be over?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
And dignity means not returning to a country that has deported you.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
If you end up leaving and it ends up being at the hands of deportation, is that going to change how you feel about America and about what America means?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
I'm trying to make sense of what it means to you that your American journey may end with Americans having decided that the way you feel about it is not the way they feel about you.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Well, Raminia, I want to thank you for your time. Again. And no matter where you end up, I hope that we get to speak again.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
We'll be right back. On Thursday, Israel's prime minister accused Hamas of backing away from the terms of the ceasefire deal announced a day earlier and jeopardizing the hard-fought agreement. According to Israel, Hamas has demanded changes for how Israeli troops are deployed along Gaza's border with Egypt and called for the release of, quote, "...terrorists that are unacceptable to Israel."
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
And by the time we reached her, she was the subject of a deportation order.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Nevertheless, U.S. officials expressed confidence that the ceasefire would still begin as planned on Sunday. And during his confirmation hearing, former Republican Congressman Lee Zeldin, Donald Trump's pick to run the Environmental Protection Agency, was pushed to affirm the existence of climate change.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Breaking with Trump, Zeldin said that climate change was not a hoax and said he was committed to working with career employees of the EPA, many of whom remain deeply suspicious of the Trump White House.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
If you caught Monday's episode about the tech billionaire Mark Andreessen, a major figure in Silicon Valley's shift toward Donald Trump, our colleague, columnist Ross Douthat, has a new interview with Andreessen out this weekend. You can find it on the New York Times podcast, Matter of Opinion. Just search Matter of Opinion wherever you listen. Today's episode was produced by Jessica Chung.
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Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
It was edited by Devin Taylor. Contains research assistance from Susan Lee. Original music by Alishaba Etube, Rowing Emisto, and Pat McCusker. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
In the end, she was never arrested. And today, while her two daughters are U.S. citizens, Herminia and her husband remain in the U.S. illegally, despite what she says are repeated efforts to become a legal resident.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Which means we're creating more work for you with this conversation. So thank you for making time for us. I really, really appreciate it. Nah, it's nothing. So how are you doing? How is your family? How are you?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
So a few days ago, I called Herminia back to understand what's happened to her since Trump left office and how she's now preparing for a second Trump term in which he's pledged to put the deportation of people like her at the center of his presidency. It's Friday, January 17th.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
I want to just go back and understand when we first spoke to you in 2019, you were in this very acute fear of a deportation raid coming. It felt like there was a weekend we spoke to you where it felt like it could happen at any moment. And then Trump loses, Biden wins.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
And he has, at that point, been campaigning on a message of a very different approach to immigration and especially undocumented immigrants. He says it's going to be much more humane. He says he's going to roll back a lot of Trump's policies. And so I just want to understand what that felt like for you once Biden took the White House. Did it make you reevaluate your life?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
And what could you do or did you do? that you weren't willing to do when Trump was president?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
The sign that said to your family, don't open the door.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
When you say you felt protected, I mean, what did you allow yourself to do, or to feel, but mostly to do, that you didn't when Trump was president? I mean, going out into the world, having certain conversations, what are some examples? Were you willing to try things like driving again and traveling again?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Your passport, which is a Nicaraguan passport? Yes. And you just figured, because this administration is not... Harmful for me.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Then you can travel, you can go wherever you want to go in the country and you'll be fine.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
What did that tell you about how Americans think about people like you?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
Well, let's turn where I think you're turning. I wonder if there's a moment when you started to realize that despite Biden's election, that America's views, American public views on immigration, especially around illegal immigration, was changing, and that that change... meant that their views had become far less sympathetic. Was there a moment where you kind of detected that?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
You're saying when border crossings started to surge at the beginning of Biden's presidency, you worried there would be a backlash?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
It sounds like it's a hard question to answer for you.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
So you could sense even among those who were undocumented themselves a frustration with what was happening under Biden because they didn't like it.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
You're saying that those who have been here for a long time like you became frustrated with Biden's humanitarian parole program because it felt like a backdoor.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
The backlash that it seems you feared would come. Eventually, of course, it feels like it did come, right? Because poll after poll, and I'm thinking, you know, 2022, 2023, early 2024, you know, polls started to show just how unhappy American voters were with how President Biden was handling immigration. Crossings hit these record highs, and across the political spectrum,
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
and we did polling here at the New York Times, we could see people saying they wanted stricter enforcement of immigration laws. They wanted deportations. Basically, more and more Americans wanted laws enforced against people like you. And I wonder how that felt.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
It sounds like it perhaps did not surprise you when Trump reemerged over the past few years as a candidate and tapped into this backlash that you had feared would come and began to arrive.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
I'm curious what it was like for you when the results came in. He not only won and won decisively, he won the community where you live so thoroughly. I mean, you live in the Miami-Dade area. And for the first time in decades, that community elected a Republican, and that was Donald Trump. And that meant that a majority Hispanic Latino community had elected a man who
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
who ran on a platform of taking on undocumented immigrants through mass deportation.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
And I mean, you said what you said about the different groups and where they're from in the country. But did it did it feel like your own community had rejected you?
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
In other words, the people in Miami-Dade who you talked to after the election said, don't worry, this is not about you.
The Daily
Waiting for the Immigration Raids, Again
We'll be right back. Within the next few days, once he becomes president again, Donald Trump may order and perhaps even begin to undertake the mass deportations that he has talked about throughout his campaign. And we don't know what they would look like. It may be that in the end, as people in your community have said, he ends up just focusing on those with criminal records.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Well, we're going to take a break. And Zolan, when we come back, we're going to return to the phrase you just used, overseas, and talk about projections of power in international affairs. We'll be right back. Welcome back to David, Zola, and Maggie.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
It feels like the story of this presidency so far is the extraordinary wielding of power by President Trump and a remarkable wielding of power by Elon Musk, private citizen and the world's richest man. And they've been happening simultaneously and seemingly a little bit independently. And this week, we saw those two things come together in a very vivid and at times weird way in the Oval Office.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I want to turn to the president's actions this week overseas because after focusing so heavily on his battle against the federal bureaucracy, he's now inserted himself quite forcefully into two of the world's biggest conflicts, the war in Ukraine and the war between Israel and Hamas. Let's start with Ukraine.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
David, in just about the past 48 hours, it feels like Trump tossed out most of, if not all of America's existing approach to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, which was to isolate Russia and to support Ukraine. Can you briefly tick through what the administration did and where it leaves the conflict?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
We should explain that when you're in Europe, that's what the sirens sound like behind you.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Right. Imperialism will not be rewarded.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Maggie, I want to understand why a president who wrote a book called The Art of the Deal, who sees himself as a master negotiator, would start a peace process that many people believe should start now between Russia and Ukraine by giving away so much leverage to Russia. On top of what David described,
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
The Trump administration in the past couple of days has said that Ukraine should not enter NATO, the alliance that would protect it from future Russian invasion. It has said that Ukraine is never going to return to its pre-invasion borders. Between those two proclamations and Trump's with Putin, it really does feel like he's starting a peace process almost entirely on Russia's terms.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Why would he give away that much leverage to Russia?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Maggie, for anyone who didn't see this or watch it, can you just describe this scene?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Maggie, that's one of my questions, is... I know we're struggling to pin down a Trump ideology when it comes to foreign affairs. Zolan, you're describing it as transactional. But I wonder if we're underestimating the element of imperialism that David just hinted at.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
And if what's partly going on here is that Trump is giving Russia the deference that he wants the world to give him if he tries to, say, take Greenland or the Panama Canal or Gaza.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Maggie, I want to pick up on something you're saying about how this all relates to the way his administration is treating something as local as the Adams case and how that has global implications. And I want to apply that to Gaza.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
The president has articulated this plan, which some don't see as literal, some do, to permanently remove all two million Palestinians in Gaza, move them to neighboring Arab countries, including Egypt and Jordan, and then have the U.S. take over Gaza and lead its redevelopment into what Trump has called a city for the peoples of the world. Many people read that to mean mostly Israelis.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
What ends up happening in the past couple of days, and I know a few of you covered this, is that the leader of Jordan, King Abdullah, one of the countries that would have to accept Palestinians, comes to the White House, and Trump is trying to sell him on this plan. And it's very clear how uncomfortable the leader of Jordan is.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
So I want you to apply that prism, Maggie, Zola, and David, that you just did of the way Trump uses power locally, how it applies to an international situation like this.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
What you're really getting at here is that when it comes to the domestic and the international front, This version of the Trump presidency, this undiluted, unrestrained, Maggie, to use your words, version of it, is one where the victors win totally, right? In the case of Russia-Ukraine, Russia will win almost totally.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
In the case of Israel versus Hamas when it comes to Gaza, Israel will pretty much win totally. And in his interactions with the bureaucracy or Eric Adams, it will be Trump who will win totally.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Well, on that unexpected, incredibly erudite literary note, David, thank you. Zolan, thank you. Maggie, thank you. And again, happy Valentine's Day.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
On Thursday afternoon, the U.S. attorney for Manhattan resigned, rather than obey the order from Trump's Justice Department, to dismiss corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. In a letter, the U.S.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
attorney said she could no longer remain in the job because, quote, "...the law does not support a dismissal, and because I am confident that Adams has committed the crimes with which he is charged." Soon after, the Justice Department sought to reassign the case to a different team of lawyers in Washington.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
But the two attorneys who run that team, as well as three of their colleagues, also resigned rather than follow the order. The six resignations were a remarkable rebuke of the administration's decision to end the case against Mayor Adams. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
In the latest legal setback to President Trump's executive orders, a federal judge ordered the White House to keep funding hospitals that offer gender transition treatments to people under the age of 19. Trump had sought to block that funding, which was already approved by Congress on ideological grounds.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
But in the ruling, the judge said that Trump's order encroached on Congress's power and put trans youth at, quote, extreme risk. And on Thursday, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was confirmed as the next Secretary of Health and Human Services and sworn in during a ceremony in the Oval Office.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Kennedy, a vaccine skeptic who failed to win a single Democratic vote in the Senate, had explicitly sought the role of health secretary in return for his endorsement of Trump during the campaign. Today's episode was produced and edited by Rachel Quester, Sophie Erickson, Brooke Minters, Roman Safiulin, Eddie Costas, and Nikta Mahmoudi, with help from Shannon Lin.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
It contains original music by Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsvog of Winderlea. Remember, you can catch a new episode of The Interview right here tomorrow. Lulu Garcia-Navarro talks with Senator Ruben Gallego of Arizona about where he thinks his party has gone wrong.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I think Democrats are afraid to talk to Trump voters. I think Democrats are afraid to talk to people that are going to criticize them. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Right, well, Zolan and David, I want to bring you in. What immediately stood out about this scene was not just the fact that Elon Musk was there defending and justifying his unusual role. It was just the fact of him holding court next to a sitting President Trump for 30 minutes in this room that is the very definition of American presidential power. It was the stature that it conferred on Musk.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
And you all know this, but there's been this running motif here that Musk is a kind of co-president. And Time magazine went so far over the past couple days as to put Musk on the cover of its latest issue, sitting behind the Resolute desk with a coffee mug in his hand. And this scene didn't seem to combat that, or did it?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
To make sense of all of that, I turned to three of my colleagues, White House reporters Maggie Haverman, David Sanger, and Zolin Kano-Youngs. It's Friday, February 14th. Friends, welcome back to The Roundtable. But first, happy Valentine's Day.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. Over the past week, President Trump dramatically ceded the stage to Elon Musk in the Oval Office, turned the Democratic mayor of New York City into a kind of political pawn, and ensured that Vladimir Putin begins peace talks with Ukraine on Russia's terms.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
There seems to be an interesting thing happening where the president and Elon Musk believe that to justify their cost-cutting, they need to find and highlight corruption, just egregious cases of bad behavior, when it seems for the most part that's probably not what they're going to find.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Why is it that they're having such a hard time just saying, we want to cut government because we want to cut government? Why do they feel the need to brand everything as corrupt, as kickbacks, to make claims that so malign the workforce, for which there's no evidence?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I just want to close out this conversation about Elon Musk because this idea, this motif of a co-presidency is so much in the air. I just want to get some clarity on this. Maggie, is there a version of this where we should see Trump giving Elon Musk this kind of a platform as him actually exerting some power over Musk?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I mean, if you watch the president set it up, he said, I've asked Elon Musk to come here to offer a few remarks. And, you know, even though Trump was sitting there at their resolute desk not saying much during the entire time Musk was talking, he was sitting at the resolute desk. That's his desk. It was very clear he was the president.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Is there a way of flipping this around a little bit and seeing this as him kind of bringing Musk to heel?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Thank you, Michael.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Right, you're working for me now. Not a big deal.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Wow. I didn't know that over the past week, among all the remarkable things, Elon Musk essentially cut a check to Donald Trump for many millions of dollars.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I mean, who else would you spend it with?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Yep. So Musk and Doge and... all this cost-cutting and conflict of interest, risk overshadowing something else really important that happened this week, which is that the Trump administration, its Justice Department, asked prosecutors in New York to drop sweeping federal corruption charges against the city's mayor here, Eric Adams. Maggie, you've covered this story very closely.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Can you just remind us very briefly of the basics of this case and how we got to this point where the Trump administration is demanding... that charges for a big city Democratic mayor be dropped.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I trust you to do this.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I can, too. You have a wonderful husband. David, appreciate you joining us from Munich. I was going to say from Paris, city of love.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
There seems to be a quid pro quo implied here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
The implied give and take here is that the Democratic mayor of America's biggest city, will become an ally of the president, and most importantly, not a critic of things like his immigration agenda, if and once this administration drops these charges.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Right. I just want to be clear what you guys are saying. The Justice Department, in saying they think these charges should be dropped, basically said we'd really like to work with this mayor to conduct immigration raids and get undocumented immigrants out of New York City.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Yep. You've been traveling with the Vice President. Zolan and Maggie, appreciate you coming to us from our studio in Washington, D.C., I just want to set up this conversation. Loosely speaking, our theme this week is projections of power, exercises of power by the Trump administration, both overseas and here at home. And we're going to start here at home.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
blowing my mind just a little bit. David, for many people, this scenario is pretty straightforwardly a subversion of the normal system of justice in the country. Putting that aside for a moment, if you wish to, just as importantly, it would seem to make the mayor of New York City something of a – and I'm going to use this word, and you all can correct me if you think it's too strong –
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
a pawn of the president. Because it would seem, from what Maggie said, that their plan is to drop the case but say they could bring it back. That message would seem to be, we can make all your problems go away, Mr. Mayor, or we can make your problems come right back.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
That would end my career. That would end my career.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
You're saying there's a real Machiavellian value in arranging the situation such that Adams simply cannot afford to not do the president's bidding.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
We'll be right back. Well, I think that brings us to how the Trump administration is pursuing this playbook of yours, the Rufo playbook. So far, Trump has withheld $400 million from Columbia University, $500 million from Brown, $9 billion in funding from Harvard, several hundred million from Princeton.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And the White House has so far framed this as being about anti-Semitism and to a degree about DEI on campus. And it's made very specific demands. of these universities for how students are to be disciplined, how campus rules are to be enforced, how certain departments, for example, Middle Eastern studies programs, are to be run. But the context and the motivation seems to be bigger.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
It's everything that you have been talking about here. And the president has talked about it even all the way back during the campaign when he said he wanted to reclaim our once great educational institutions from the radical left. So what's an ideal outcome of holding up this money? In your mind, what should a university look like?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
What could it look like when the Trump administration says all those hundreds of millions, in some cases, billions of dollars that you are relying on, we're holding it back unless you change your culture, your practices, in some case, your curriculum?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And in this version of a university, would anything on the curriculum be off limits or would you be open to leaving that forever? and would the Trump administration be open to leaving that to the universities? I mean, could there be a critical race theory class, critical identities studies class, critical ethnic studies class?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
I mention those because you have talked about those as being very problematic.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
That's where you draw the line in terms of academic freedom. The universities need to have that. So...
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
I'm curious, Chris, what it's like for you in this moment to watch this activism that I know you've pursued for so many years come to such full fruition under President Trump. Because in so many ways, your vision for how to challenge what universities in this country have become seems to have been adopted by the White House.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
You no doubt know that the leaders of a lot of colleges, especially private colleges, they do not... Share your goal. And they fiercely believe that it would do serious damage to their institutions. And we just spoke with the president of Princeton University, Chris Eisgruber.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And when presented with the challenges that he has been by the president, including the threat of hundreds of millions of dollars, he said very clearly to my colleague, Rachel Abrams, he will not be making any concessions to the White House. He was very clear about that. And he cited a few reasons. And one of them was the subject we just spoke about, academic freedom.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
His belief that academics, academic researchers, administrators at the university, they should not have terms dictated to them by the government. That that's a principle, a very high-level principle central to the operation of a university. Now, I know you just distinguished between The government calling the shots on what class gets taught or which department exists and the administration.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
But I think his point would cut through that distinction. And he would simply say the government should not be telling us how to function.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
Well, can we talk about that money for a minute? Because the universities, when they received that money, understood it to be intended for research and endeavors in the name of the public good. None of them, I think, would say that they were given the binary choice that you just outlined.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
Well, the other argument that Princeton's president made revolved around the idea of what the political complexity and complexion of a university is supposed to be. And the president of Princeton concedes that universities like his can and should do better.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
when it comes to making conservatives feel more welcomed and should become, in his words, a place where conservatives feel they can speak up and where important conservative arguments can be heard
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
But, and this was really interesting, and I want to get your reaction to it, he said that that is very different, making sure that there is a place for diversity of views on campus, that that is very different than saying that a university should reflect the political ideology of the country. And he says, we shouldn't actually try to do that.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
We're not a Sunday morning talk show, is what he said, trying to achieve ideological balance. And he went on to say there are political divisions about things like climate and vaccines right now, but there is no obligation on the part of universities to reflect what is the political division of opinion on those subjects. So what do you say to that?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
So, Chris, I want to understand the practical implications of, at the beginning of our conversation, what you call this industrialized effort to freeze, hold up so much money at these universities. If someone like the president of Princeton decides at the end of the day, they're not going to make concessions to the administration. then this money doesn't go to what it was designated for.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And in many cases, that is scientific research. And the president of Princeton spoke about this when he talked about the impact of these dollars not reaching their designated endpoint. He wasn't talking about the social sciences, where so many of the liberal ideas that you're talking about would seem to have a natural home, but the hard sciences, right? cancer research, medical research.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And how do you make sure that you're not abusing that power? I mean, I know that what you may be about to say is that in your mind, universities have abused their influence in the culture when it comes to left-wing ideas.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
I mean, just to put a fine point on the specificity with which what you have been advocating for is now happening, I was really struck by something you told my colleague Ross Douthat from the opinion side of the Times not so long ago. And I'm going to quote you here. This is what you said.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
How do you know or make sure that you, Chris Ruffo, with the tremendous power that you have achieved as an activist in this era, are not abusing yours and letting your instincts, your personal peak, your ego, and I don't say that to be mean, dictate who lives and dies as the leader of these universities? Chris?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
Chris, I want you to contemplate a scenario here where these universities decide to try to live without this federal money, which in some cases is significant when it comes to their operating budgets. And let's say they walk away from some of the research that we have been talking about. Or they borrow a lot of money. I think Harvard is starting to contemplate that.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
Is that a scenario where you end up losing your only real leverage over them? And would that mean that you have failed to achieve your original goal of having changed these universities? You have changed them because they'll be smaller. They'll be doing less research, but you haven't necessarily changed them in the way that you intended. Would that be a failure?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
A medium or long-term goal of mine is to figure out how to adjust the formula of finances from the federal government to the universities in a way that puts them in an existential terror and have them say, unless we change what we're doing, we're not going to be able to meet our budget for the year. They're going to have to make, you said, really hard decisions.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
But there would be this other casualty, right? Less cancer research, less obesity research, less scientific breakthrough and innovation.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
They would tell you that those private dollars are not readily available. There's no substitute available. Thank you.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
I mean, that is what is now happening to universities under President Trump.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
Thank you. I don't know. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Thank you.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Over the past five years, the activist Christopher Ruffo has spearheaded the conservative critique of and direct assault on critical race theory and DEI.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
Well, I want to better understand, Chris, why it is you've come to see this strategy that you want to have implemented, not only on the scale it's already being implemented on, but as you said, on an industrial scale, why you've come to see this as the right strategy for changing universities in the way you want to see them changed.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
organizing remarkably effective campaigns against government offices, corporations, and especially American universities.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And I think to do that, we need to understand your motivation for seeing higher education in the way that you do. as a set of institutions that have been captured by leftist ideology, bureaucracy, practices, and incentives, and have spread those throughout American society. So tell us that story of how you come to see universities in this way.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
So just to summarize, because I want to make sure I'm understanding this, you're seeing what to you feels like a lot of kind of empty virtue signaling on campus when you're a student, and it combines with this experience of, making this film that suggests that liberal politics and policies are not helping the lives of many working Americans.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And together, you're thinking this whole kind of project of the American left is not working and maybe even a little bit rotten.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
Ruffo wrote scalped after Gay was forced out. In the process, Ruffo has become an influential voice in the ear of the Trump administration as it turns his strategy into a wide-ranging government crackdown on higher education.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And those you hold responsible, it sounds like, are essentially... left-leaning leaders and faculty of these colleges. And I just want to cite something from your book, which I happen to have in front of me. Sure. In your book, you describe numerically just how liberal, just how left-leaning the faculty have become at many of the biggest universities in the country.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And you focus on the social sciences. And the data point that I found worth mentioning here is is that the ratio of liberal to conservative faculty has reached, according to this research report, 8 to 1 in political science, 17 to 1 in history, 44 to 1 in sociology, 48 to 1 in English, and 108 to 0 in communications and interdisciplinary studies, which you note includes race and gender studies.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
That's what you're talking about.
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
So at this moment, in your mind, where something that was living in universities spills out and becomes excessive, there's an opportunity for folks like you to name it, call it out, and try to fight it. And, of course, I just want to pause here to ask, why?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
In your mind, was there anything about that that was organic and just an unnatural outpouring of grief and frustration over what had happened to George Floyd and about the history of racism in the United States that lay behind that?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
And as you've said, so much of this for you goes back to the university, the incubation center, in your words, for these ideas. What exactly are these universities doing wrong besides the virtue signaling and your telling that you saw in 2020?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
What's an example of that, just so people can understand what it is you think has happened here?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
I just want to be clear, because some of this is fiercely debated. Some of this is still in the courts. But you land on this very specific solution to address what you see as the excesses of the American left, which is to... Use the federal money that these universities depend on as a cudgel to force them to change. Why do you settle on that tactic?
The Daily
The Conservative Activist Pushing Trump to Attack U.S. Colleges
On Wednesday, we spoke about that crackdown with the president of Princeton University, Today, we ask Rufo just how far it will go. It's Friday, April 11th. Chad, Chad, you guys hear me? Is that Chris? Can he hear me? I can hear you. Well, Chris, welcome to The Daily. We appreciate you making time for us. It's good to be with you.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
So you're saying if Biden can't protect everything he's done, what he can do is drive a wedge between Trump and his supporters. That's right. And leave him in a pretty tough spot.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Good. And Zolan, we are talking to you from Italy, where President Biden was supposed to be but had to cancel because of the Los Angeles wildfires. Thank you for being on. Ciao. Ciao, colleagues. So we have all the geography covered here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And this is the old trope. Journalists really like it when their presidents hold news conferences. But I'm hearing you all say this is not just journalistic bellyaching about access to the president. This is about what seems like either a conscious or unconscious decision by the president to not hold the office in the fullest way possible publicly as he could at the end of his presidency.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
You know where I'm going, David. Yeah.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Well, let's talk about what he did do in that interview. I mean, the elements of the interview with USA Today that ultimately seemed to break through were the fact that Biden— among other things, is considering issuing preemptive pardons that would protect potential targets of a criminal investigation by the incoming Trump administration.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
We've talked so much on the show about Trump DOJ's pretty much open commitment to going after certain of his rivals and enemies. It was interesting that Biden came out and said, I am thinking about doing this. Do we know who might be at the top of that list for – preemptive pardons? And do they want them?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Because getting a preemptive pardon from the president suggests that you might have done something wrong.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And as always, we begin with the caveat that we are recording this at a very specific time around 115 on Thursday because the news could change before we run this. And in fact, we know it will change because the Supreme Court is about to make a major ruling at the request of President-elect Trump. Maggie, can you walk us through that request from President-elect Trump?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Biden also made a fascinating admission in this conversation with USA Today, and it was this. Although he believes he could have beaten Trump had he stayed in the race, which we'll never really know the answer to, he said he's unsure, he acknowledged an uncertainty that he would have made it through a second term. That's a big thing to acknowledge, Zolan.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
David, is that an admission of irresponsibility on Biden's part? You've covered this presidency for its entirety. To suggest that you might not be able to fulfill the obligations of President of the United States, Commander-in-Chief for a full term, but that you were determined to do it anyway, it borders on – raising serious questions about judgment.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Before or after you decided not to run.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
David, this does remind me that you are basically the Forrest Gump of presidential news conferences. Totally true. Which news conference did you not ask the question?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
I want to end, my friends, on a scene that has just played out. A somber one in Washington at the National Cathedral. Biden was there. So was Donald Trump and all of our living former presidents. This was the funeral, of course, of former President Jimmy Carter. I'm curious what stood out to all of you about the ceremony. I know you're busy.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
You might not have been able to watch the funeral in its entirety. But there were several moments that I think a number of our colleagues are seizing on for their symbolism and their significance.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
January 6th might have spelled Mike Pence's death at the hands of people rioting in the name of Donald Trump. He rose to shake Trump's hand.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Exactly. David, I want to end with a clip of President Biden's eulogy to Jimmy Carter. I think by the time we're done playing it, you'll understand why I chose it. Let me just play it for you.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And Zolan and David, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Michael. Thanks, Michael. On Thursday night, the Supreme Court denied Trump's request to stop his criminal sentencing in the New York City hush money case. The decision all but ensures that Trump's sentencing will proceed as planned later today.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
The justices noted that Trump faces no jail time and can still appeal his conviction through traditional legal means. We'll be right back.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
On Thursday, officials in Los Angeles said that the largest of the city's five wildfires, the Palisades Fire, has now damaged or destroyed thousands of buildings and continues to burn out of control.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
In a worrying sign for firefighters, forecasters expected winds to pick up on Thursday night, with wind speeds of 20 to 30 miles per hour and gusts of up to 60 miles per hour, and warned that heavy winds could arrive again over the weekend. So far, the fires have killed at least five people, but that number is expected to rise.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And during his state funeral on Thursday, former President Jimmy Carter was remembered as a humble peanut farmer who rose to the heights of power and used that power to seek out justice and peace.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
In eulogy after eulogy, friends, advisors, and Carter's grandson, Jason Carter, recalled just how much the former president and his late wife, Rosalyn, had embraced a life of modesty.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
After the funeral, Carter's body was flown by military jet to his hometown in Georgia for a private service at his local church and a burial at a family plot next to his home. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Michael Simon-Johnson, and Will Reed. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Chris Haxell, contains original music by Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And what's their strongest argument, Maggie, legally for why the Supreme Court should weigh in and stop this local court case from running its course?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
During a busy week, President-elect Trump asked the Supreme Court to prevent him from being sentenced in a New York criminal case.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonder League. A reminder, you can catch a new episode of The Interview right here tomorrow. David Marchese speaks with the actor and comedian Ben Stiller about what it was like growing up as the son of comedy legends.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Fascinating. And David, what would it mean for the ruling to go either way, not just for Trump necessarily, but for the idea of the rule of law?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
David, you mentioned there was a press conference from President-elect Trump earlier this week, made a lot of news. And, Zolan, you were covering that news conference. It was at Mar-a-Lago. Zolan, just to begin with, what was this news conference supposed to be about?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
He implied that as president, he could use military force to seize control of Greenland and the Panama Canal.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And David, you were there, and you ended up asking him a question about his now repeated interest in the idea of the United States basically subsuming Canada, Greenland, and the Panama Canal. And... I want to play, David, for our listeners, the question that you asked the president-elect that basically became the exchange heard around the world. Here is what it sounded like.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
David, just explain what it is Trump is saying. He's not saying all that much, but it ends up making a ton of news.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And he overshadowed a sitting president who is using his final days in office to try to Trump-proof his legacy. To make sense of all of this, I gathered three of my colleagues, senior political reporter Maggie Haberman and White House reporters David Sanger and Zolan Kano-Youngs. It's Friday, January 10th. Friends, welcome to the first Daily Roundtable of 2025. And thank you for being here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Maggie and Zolan, let's take the president-elect at his word here. What might it look like to use – let's just use the example of military power, perhaps not to invade but to begin a campaign of intimidation to try to convince Denmark this is inevitable?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
I have a theory I wanted to run by all of you or perhaps just one of you who's willing to take it on about how Trump talks about Greenland, Panama Canal, Canada, and what may simply underlie it. And let's just put aside the argument that there's a strategic economic reason for doing it. Perhaps there very much is.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
I don't think it's controversial to say that at this moment, Americans' sense of themselves is that we're a little bit on our heels. We aren't the only superpower in the world anymore. David, you've written books about this. Many see us as a nation somewhat in decline from our heights of power. And in that context, my logic...
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
has been, the idea of expansion, even if it's just an idea, is enormously appealing in this moment. It's like a return to manifest destiny, westward ho. You know, we have bought states and land in the past. We bought Alaska from Russia. I looked it up right before this conversation started. And so should we just view it in that context? It's nationalism on steroids.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
I mean, Maggie, let me give you the last word on this before we go to break. Is this symbolic or based on your reporting, is this a serious, earnest undertaking that we should be watching with the carefulness that goes with the adage that when Trump says something, take it seriously?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
We are going to take a break, and when we come back, we're going to talk about what the president, the actual sitting president, is up to right now. It's quite overshadowed by the president-elect. And understand how Biden is thinking about his final days in office. We'll be right back. Okay, Zolan, talk about what President Biden is doing in this final stretch of time he has in office.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Maggie, you are joining us from Washington. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. David, you are coming to us from Mar-a-Lago.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Right. What you're pointing to is that Biden might sign an executive order saying that the grounds under the ocean can't be drilled. But the thing about an executive order is that it depends on who's the executive. Trump could come in and essentially roll that back, which is the case for pretty much all executive action. That's right.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
David, what stands out to you about these last, I guess, two weeks and days of Biden's presidency? Yeah.