Michael Barbaro
Appearances
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. As soon as this week, after months of testimony, verdicts are expected in a rape trial that has both horrified and captivated the people of France. Today...
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
She says this out loud, which sounds a bit, to me, like the words of a civil rights figure, not a French grandmother.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
So after lifting the veil of anonymity that so often surrounds the victim, she's now making sure that there is no anonymity whatsoever around the conduct of the accused men.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It's hard for me, Catherine, to fathom what kind of a defense can be put forward by the dozens of men, many of them in this courtroom, knowing what's on those videos, these audible sounds of her being asleep. So what are they saying or do we expect them to say in this trial in their own defense, if anything? Right.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
And since we're talking about the defense of these men, what has her ex-husband said in his defense?
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
So he is in no way denying that the worst conceivable version of this is exactly what happened.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Hmm. You had said that Gisele Pelico wanted to change society with this approach to the trial, by letting herself be named, by opening it up to reporters like you. So the question is, has she accomplished that? And if she has, how exactly?
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It feels like if this scene outside the courtroom is any indication that what Giselle Pelico wants to happen around shame and rape culture, it's actually already starting to happen. She is effectuating this change herself.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Well, to understand how the woman at the center of this case does this remarkable thing, let's start at the beginning of this case.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It strikes me that... the unintended consequence of these longtime practices that we use when it comes to rape, of shrouding a victim in anonymity, which makes so much sense.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
for so many reasons, because of the shame you described, that they've had this unintentional consequence that we haven't really thought that much about, which is we end up focused so little on the women who have had this experience because they mostly remain anonymous. We end up spending so much of our time focused on the men. And what's changed here is that Gisele Pelico has said,
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Not just that she's going to switch up the question of shame, but she's going to switch up the question of basic power.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Well, Catherine, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Here's what else you need to know today. Ukraine says it has assassinated the general who led Russia's nuclear defense force The general, Igor Kurylov, was killed when an explosive device planted inside a scooter was detonated on Tuesday morning near the entryway to a residential building. It was one of Ukraine's most brazen assassinations since Russia invaded Ukraine nearly three years ago.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
On Tuesday, New York City prosecutors charged Luigi Mangione with first-degree murder in the shooting death of UnitedHealthcare's CEO. The charges branded Mangione a terrorist and portrayed his alleged murder plot as a political act. Today's episode was produced by Shannon Lin and Eric Krupke, with help from Rob Zipko and Olivia Nadd.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It was edited by Lexi Diao and Michael Benoit, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Sophia Landman, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landferk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Zegolene Lestradek, That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
So there is something very dark happening just under the surface of what looks like this very idyllic life.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
My colleague, correspondent Catherine Porter, on the woman at the center of that trial and how, with a single decision, she has turned the power dynamics of the Me Too era on their head. It's Wednesday, December 18th. Catherine, it has been a really long time, and I am very glad to be speaking with you.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
An unfathomable piece of information to absorb, I have to imagine, because in this moment, she is hearing that her whole life is not what she thought it was, and that the man she's married to is a monster.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
Mm-hmm. And just to be very clear, because it almost seems impossible to wrap one's head around this, she, if I'm intuiting from you correctly, has no inkling of any of this.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
And what do we learn about these men accused of this unbelievably horrible act?
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
It feels like this is normally the stage in a story like this, as we know from countless Me Too episodes of this show that we have made, where despite even the unique horrors of what you're describing here... The legal system kicks in in this kind of predictable way. And the media world starts to pay attention in a way that focuses very heavily on the perpetrators, on the men.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
So we're going to be talking today about a case that, when it first began to reverberate outside of France, where you are, really shocked the world. And then, as even the most shocking things do, it kind of receded from our collective consciousness, but not from yours.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
And the victim, the woman here, quite understandably, remains anonymous.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
In other words, to use her husband's name.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
We'll be right back. So, Catherine, take us inside the courtroom, into this trial, and walk us through how this remarkable decision ends up influencing how the case plays out.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
From what you're saying, the scale, the enormity of the alleged crime here is just physically inescapable in the room.
The Daily
France’s Horrifying Rape Trial Has a Feminist Hero
And at the center of it all, quite literally, the scene is Giselle Pelico.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Right, and the question immediately became, what do you do after one of the world's great, important, essential, beloved buildings is this badly damaged?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
That case got cracked wide open, all of which delayed this much-awaited debut of yours on the show. And today is the day. You, our chief architecture critic... finally here talking about something worthy of your biography, Notre Dame.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
We'll be right back. So, Michael, tell us how France did this, how they pulled this on-time miracle off.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, just to begin, do you remember the first time you stepped inside that cathedral?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
So this is not exactly living inside the cathedral as you had originally thought, but you have this chance. So tell us about this one day you get to go inside.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
There are many times when I could have left and I haven't left here.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
I'm trying to envision people going out into the forests of France, looking at trees and saying, ah, that one is worthy of that beam. You'll remember Francois and the rafters up there. Cut down that tree.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
So your memory of it is vague, but the impression I'm getting is that whatever it did to you, it did something.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Devotional to the original workers and the original mission and meaning of this entire cathedral.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
I'm curious, once you get down from the roof and you are witnessing this exceptionally faithful devotional effort to bring the roof back to what it looked like a thousand years ago, what you saw on the interior, probably the best known portions of Notre Dame.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
So let's fast forward a good deal to several years ago. Where were you when you first heard that Notre Dame was burning?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, that makes me wonder, as an architecture critic, did you have, by the end of this tour, by the end of this coveted day that you got, some kind of final assessment of... the experience of this restored cathedral.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Basically, you should prepare yourself for going inside a 1,000-year-old building that has been power washed.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, you're getting at the question I've been waiting to ask you this entire conversation, which is if architecture, as you have laid out here, tells us something about us, what did this renovation, this project, tell us about ourselves right now?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
And now it's in the best shape that it's ever been in probably a thousand years.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, Michael, on that really beautiful note, thank you very, very much.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Here's what else you need to know today. On Tuesday, Israel said it had destroyed Syria's navy during a series of airstrikes in what it described as defensive measures designed to protect itself against Syria's new government.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
But the attacks have defied warnings from Western governments, who fear they may ignite a new conflict in the region, and fear that Israel is using the fall of Syria's government as an opportunity to take offensive actions.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
As the Assad government fell over the weekend, Israeli ground forces advanced beyond the demilitarized zone on the Israeli-Syria border, marking Israel's first overt entry into Syrian territory in more than 50 years. Today's episode was produced by Carlos Prieto and Jessica Chung.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
It was edited by Michael Benoit, contains original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lanferk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Aurelien Breeden, Ségolène Lestradec, Catherine Porter, and Brian Katz. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
the Cathedral of Notre Dame reopened to the public. Today, chief architecture critic Michael Kimmelman with the story of the miracle on the Seine. It's Wednesday, December 11th. Michael, welcome to The Daily.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, I'm curious, when this inquiry is moving along and you're making phone calls and you're researching the history of Notre Dame and trying to understand why the feelings about its burning are so widespread and so deep, what do you find?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, tell us a little bit about that history. And I suspect through that, we will understand what it has meant to us during that entire period.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
In other words, all French roads quite literally lead to this cathedral.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
It's fascinating because what could better embody the idea of a single building's importance to a place than it becomes a central target of an effort to overturn the entire system?
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
I don't think we can miss an opportunity, since you brought it with you, to read from the hunchback of Notre Dame.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
I'm just going to acknowledge that we have been trying to get you on the show for seven years. And then two days more, because over the past couple of days, there's been a tremendous amount of very serious news. The government in Syria fell a closely watched manhunt for the suspected murderer of the CEO of a major healthcare company.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
It reminds me of what you said at the beginning of this conversation about architecture, is that this is not some abstract piece of architecture. It's living, it's breathing, it tells us something essential about who we are at any given moment. And Hugo, as you said, he's not saying that through an especially religious lens. He's seeing this more as a secular temple.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Well, since you just brought it up, remind us, How severe this fire ends up being.
The Daily
Notre-Dame Rises From the Ashes
Right. You were wrong when you were on the bike telling your editor it couldn't burn. There's a lot of wood in that cathedral.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Over the past few weeks, the resistance of a single Republican senator has threatened to derail Donald Trump's controversial choice of Pete Hegseth to run the Department of Defense. Today... Karin Demersian and Jonathan Swan with the story of how Trump and his allies ensured that that senator's resistance quickly went away.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Right. And the message that they're sending her via this onslaught from all sides seems to be, Senator Ernst, if you like being in the U.S. Senate as a Republican from Iowa, if you don't want us to find someone to run against you, if you don't want your phones ringing off the hook and our...
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Trump MAGA base turning against you, you should probably just find a way to get behind Pete Hexeth as Secretary of Defense, because then all this will probably go away.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So how does Ernst respond to all of this?
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So this ends up becoming a pretty extraordinary demonstration of the president-elect's power.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
On Sunday, the Republican campaign to rally support for Pete Hegseth continued. Senator Lindsey Graham, a close Trump ally, said that Hegseth has agreed to release the woman who accused him of sexual assault from a confidential legal settlement. That, Graham told NBC News, would allow his accuser to come forward publicly with her allegations and let senators evaluate whether or not they are true.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Here's what else you need to know today.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Over the weekend, South Korea's legislature voted to impeach the country's leader, President Yoon Seok-yool, as punishment for his decision to impose martial law on the country. The vote, which immediately strips Yoon of his presidential powers, was met with cheers in the streets of South Korea's capital.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Yoon's martial law decree, issued on December 3, lasted only six hours, but it threw South Korea's democracy into chaos and triggered massive public protests. Yoon's fate now rests with South Korea's Constitutional Court, which will decide within the next six months whether to reinstate or formally remove him from office.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Luke Vanderplug, and Asta Chaturvedi, with help from Nina Feldman. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Devin Taylor, contains original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. That's it for the day. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Well, just explain that. Tell us about Senator Joni Ernst and how her career ends up so at odds with Hexeth.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Well, so given her role as a Republican leader on all of these issues, issues that do not seem to align with Hegseth's biography and these accusations that he faces, what is Ernst's response to Hegseth being tapped to run the military?
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Yesterday, you had a significant meeting with Pete Hegseth, our former colleague. And right now.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
It's Monday, December 16th. Karin, in your role as a congressional reporter, you have been closely tracking the fate of Trump's pick to run the U.S. military, Pete Hegseth, a pick that was controversial from the start but has become only more controversial over the past couple of weeks.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So quite understandably, this senator who has led her party on all these issues like sexual assault is deciding that these accusations against him might be disqualifying. And she's saying so on of all occasions. networks, Fox News, which she and everyone else in the Republican Party know that the president-elect watches so closely.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
After the break, my colleague Jonathan Swan on how Ernst's resistance triggered a MAGA swarm that has brought Hegseth back from the brink.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So, Jonathan, as Hegseth's path becomes messier and messier, and he's kind of just flapping in the wind there with senators like Joni Ernst saying she can't get behind him, what's happening inside Trump world?
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
And we should just say that is surprising, not just because it means Trump is writing off Pete Hegseth, but because he has hated DeSantis. I mean, DeSantis went against him. They destroyed him in that campaign. That is a very unexpected alternative.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So what might have begun as a bunch of people around Trump kind of revolting against the idea of Ron DeSantis as the next Secretary of Defense morphs into this larger objection to the idea that Trump would back down again on one of his picks for the Cabinet and show weakness in a way that might completely shape his presidency. Exactly.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So what does it actually look like once Team Trump decides we are not going to back down and actually we're going to go on the offense here?
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
And what does it look like for Senator Ernst to be the focus of this campaign?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Maggie, I want to play a brief clip of how Donald Trump has been experiencing this ring kissing that Andrew has just described. He was asked about it and this is what he said.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And unlike many of the threatened partial or full government shutdowns that have happened over the past couple of years, this one kind of came out of nowhere, right? Does that feel like an accurate statement? Who here wants to jump in? Katie?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Hmm. Biden, the aberration. Trump, the second term president. Correct. Just thinking about where we started this conversation with a shutdown. These executives, Andrew, who are currying Trump's favor, who are showing up at Mar-a-Lago for dinner, when they see someone like Elon Musk do what he just did, do they think to themselves, oh, look, we really can have tons of influence here. Wow.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
We can genuinely change policy if we get in early enough and then make the call later on.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
That's interesting, especially when you consider that one of the things that happened between then, 2016, and now is January 6th. And yet, you're saying less stigma. The favor occurring that has stood out to many of us in the news media over the past week, I think, quite logically, because we're somewhat self-absorbed, is the ring kissing from media companies.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And you mentioned Jeff Bezos going down there, the owner of the Washington Post. Well, what happened several weeks before the election, of course, was that at Jeff Bezos's request, the Washington Post pulled Hell Didn't Run, an editorial that was going to be endorsing Kamala Harris for president. That happened at the L.A. Times as well.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And there's this concept emerging, a fear within the media that some major media companies are beginning to engage in something that has been dubbed anticipatory obedience. And it's in that context that we get ABC News making a pretty consequential decision to settle a defamation lawsuit filed by Trump which seemed to many to be a capitulation to Trump's efforts to intimidate the news media.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Can you just meditate on that all for just a minute Andrew?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
I think he literally said, I'm in some ways the worst person to own this newspaper.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Well, that was a Freudian slip perhaps because ABC is owned by Disney. Disney is a major corporation that might not want to be in Trump's crosshairs.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Got it. So, Andrew, given what Maggie just said, essentially that Stephanopoulos made an on-air error and that ABC didn't then correct it, and this case is moving forward, back to you saying this is complicated and perhaps should be disentangled from anything else. Related to, for example, Bezos holding an editorial back.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
and perhaps alienate many of their viewers who thought, why can't you just admit you screwed up?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
I think, Andrew, you're making a persuasive case here that we shouldn't put all these things in one bucket. They're not entirely the same, especially the ABC defamation lawsuit.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
But no matter how you slice it, this has to be seen as a victory for Donald Trump, getting ABC News to settle a lawsuit and give him, I think, $15 million for his future presidential museum, and I think another million dollars for his legal fees. So to all three of you, just to kind of close this conversation out, if you are Donald Trump,
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Taking all of this in, the ability to trigger the explosion of a government spending bill when you're not even president, all of these CEOs who were once so skeptical coming down to have dinner with you to get into your good graces, getting a major news organization to settle a defamation lawsuit, which almost never happens.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Weeks before his inauguration, President-elect Trump is pushing the federal government toward a shutdown.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
This is starting to feel like an exceptionally empowering stretch of time for Donald Trump.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Okay, well, Maggie, Katie, Andrew, thank you all for your time. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, Michael.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Andrew, pick up where Katie leaves off. Elon Musk, not traditionally a participant in congressional spending bill negotiations. Why is he involved, and what exactly does he do?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Thank you, Michael. On Thursday night, the House voted down a last-minute proposal endorsed by President-elect Trump to keep the government open past Friday. Despite Trump's support, dozens of conservative Republicans opposed the plan, and nearly all House Democrats voted against it. There is now no clear path to avoiding a shutdown later tonight. We'll be right back.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
On Thursday, a French court convicted the ex-husband of Giselle Pellico and dozens of other men of raping her in a case that has shocked France and transformed Pellico into a feminist icon. Her husband, Dominique Pelico, received the maximum sentence of 20 years. The rest of the men were given sentences mostly ranging from six to nine years.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
After the verdicts were delivered, Giselle Pelico said that she was proud of her decision to open the trial up to the public and hoped that the outcome of the case might lead to a future in which men and women could live in harmony.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
A reminder, you can catch a new episode of The Interview right here tomorrow. David Marchese speaks with Jonathan Rumi about playing Jesus on the popular TV show The Chosen and the responses that Rumi gets from the show's fans.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Just describe what he did and what it ends up doing, and then Maggie will get to how Trump responds to that.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
For the reasons Katie suggested, that suddenly it's larded up with stuff?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Maggie, who's leading who by the nose here? I mean, Elon Musk does all that stuff. What does the president-elect do?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
The country's corporate titans are flocking to Mar-a-Lago to curry Trump's favor.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
OK, so, Katie, once Trump publicly agrees with Elon Musk, this is a bad bill. It should be blown up. Go back to the drawing board. What actually happens in the House that brings us to this point where it seems like we might actually have a government shutdown as of tonight at midnight or so?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Explicitly. So suddenly, on top of blowing up a bill that he and Elon Musk think are inconsistent with his efforts to make government smaller, he's suddenly now asking Congress to increase the debt ceiling. which is not very Republican and not very government efficient, right, Andrew?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And a major media company has capitulated to Trump's legal strategy of suing those who cross him. To make sense of all of this, I gathered three of my colleagues, senior political correspondent Maggie Haberman, congressional reporter Katie Edmondson, and financial columnist and the founder of Dealbook, Andrew Ross Sorkin. It's Friday, December 20th. Everyone. Welcome to The Roundtable.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And do it not on his watch, because it's not consistent with what he thinks of as his self-image, but on the current president's watch. But, Katie, Republicans hate voting for raising the debt ceiling, and Dems aren't going to give them a win right now, I suspect, because they don't want to give Donald Trump a win. Does that equal deadlock and therefore shutdown?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
To the degree that we think this is Elon Musk's first real exercise of raw power, even if Trump might have eventually gotten there, are we now witnessing the risk of empowering whimsical billionaires in the way that Trump is starting to do.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
I have the question, Maggie, of whether Trump assumes that because he's not yet president, a shutdown, if it happens for all the reasons that he wants it to now happen, won't be something he gets blamed for. Is that true? And is that actually pretty reasonable political thinking at this moment?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Trump benefits from this because he's really just delivering on what he said throughout the campaign he's going to do. You know, the whole point of having Doge was to carry out the promise of making government smaller and being really disruptive. What is more disruptive than before you're even president? Disrupting business as usual. So is this a very early and wise reading of the room by Trump?
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
It's going to work out pretty well for him potentially.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Katie, Maggie, Andrew, thank you all for making time for us. Thank you for having us.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
We're going to take a break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about how all of this, I think, connects to a much larger phenomenon, which is just how bound up this second Trump presidency already has become, not just with Elon Musk, but with all of corporate America. So we'll be right back. Thank you. have started to really pay homage to President-elect Trump.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Okay, let's jump right in. We are talking to the three of you at a very live news moment, 12.33 p.m. on Thursday, with a government shutdown looming. And I mention that timing because events could change after we tape. There could, for example, be a deal to try to avert a shutdown. But I think shutdown is where we need to start this conversation.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And I've come to think of this as a kind of great genuflection. Can you just give us a description of what that has looked like, the scale of it? And then I know, Maggie, you have lots of perspective on that as well from your reporting at Mar-a-Lago.