After engaging in a campaign of retribution against his enemies within the federal government, President Trump is turning to those outside of it.Michael S. Schmidt, an investigative reporter for The New York Times, explains what that retribution has looked like for a single law firm — and the impact it has had on the entire legal profession.Guest: Michael S. Schmidt, an investigative reporter for The New York Times, covering Washington.Background reading: The law firm Perkins Coie has sued the Trump administration over an executive order that would make it all but impossible for the firm to advocate for its clients.The president’s use of government power to punish law firms is seen by some experts as undercutting a basic tenet: the right to a strong defense.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Photo: Maansi Srivastava for The New York Times Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
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From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. After engaging in a campaign of retribution against his enemies within the federal government, President Trump is now turning to those outside of it. Today. my colleague Mike Schmidt, on what that retribution has looked like for a single law firm and the impact that it's had on the entire legal profession. It's Tuesday, March 18th.
Mike, welcome back to the studio. Thank you for being here. It's good to be back. I want to give a little bit of context for this conversation Before Trump was elected, The Daily ran a series of episodes about what a second Trump term might look like on a range of fronts.
And you guided us through how Trump might use the powers of the federal government to turn his threats of retribution into action. And your big finding was that we didn't have to look far to try to understand what retribution might look like in practice because Trump had already done it in his first term more than we had actually realized. And you documented that.
And you said that it would only escalate if he were given a second term. And I think it's fair to say, so far, that you were right. Michael telling me I'm right.
You were right. Frame it. Yeah, look, I was concentrated on how he was going to use the criminal powers of the Justice Department to go after his enemies. But he has actually been more creative and audacious and faster, frankly, than I ever thought he'd be.
At retribution. Correct. And what in your mind is the best example of this unexpected, inventive retribution?
The way that he has targeted in the past week or so a law firm called Perkins Coie. With the stroke of his pen, he was able to essentially cripple the firm's ability to represent its clients. and create an existential threat for it that could put it out of business. But in doing that, Trump has done something even bigger and greater. He has fundamentally undermined the American legal system.
A very bold statement. So let's tell the story of what happened to this law firm from the beginning. Tell us about Perkins Coie and how it arrives at this existential crisis at the hands of the president.
In 2016, Hillary Clinton's campaign hired Perkins Coie to be its chief outside law firm. In many ways, this made sense because Perkins Coie had one of the biggest, most robust practices that focused on representing Democrats.
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