On Friday, President Trump and Vice President JD Vance berated President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine in an explosive televised Oval Office meeting and abruptly cut short a visit that was meant to help coordinate a plan for peace.Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for The Times, discusses the clash and its consequences.Guest: Peter Baker, the chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, covering President Trump and his administration.Background reading: Mr. Trump berated Mr. Zelensky in a fiery exchange at the White House.The public blowup could propel President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia to escalate the fight in Ukraine instead of agreeing to peace.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Photo: Doug Mills/The New York Times Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Chapter 1: What led to the Oval Office confrontation between Trump and Zelensky?
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, the fallout from the extraordinary televised Oval Office shouting match between Donald Trump, J.D. Vance and Volodymyr Zelenskyy. my colleague, Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker, walks us through the clash and its consequences. It's Monday, March 3rd.
Peter, thank you for making time for us on a Sunday afternoon, no less. We appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Chapter 2: Why was the Oval Office meeting considered unprecedented?
I'm curious, Peter, where in the pantheon of moments that you have witnessed at the White House over the past 30 years to date you, does what happened in the Oval Office on Friday fit, would you say?
Yeah, Michael, I've been covering these meetings at White Houses since 1996, and I've never seen anything like this, never. You had the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, show up for a meeting with the president of the United States, Donald Trump, in the middle of a war. with so much at stake. And so, you know, everybody was looking to this meeting to see how it would come together.
I mean, it was extraordinary. It was excruciating. It was a brutal dressing down of a foreign leader in the Oval Office. Presidents just don't do that. They get frustrated at times, and sometimes there are pointed moments, but nothing like this verbal assault that we've seen even on an adversary, much less on an ally.
And I think in history, we're going to look back on this as a unique singular moment. Right.
And not just for the spectacle of it, but for its actual consequentialness.
Absolutely right. This is a rupture of a relationship now between the United States and Ukraine, 11 years after Russia first invaded, three years after its full-fledged invasion in 2022. And America has been Ukraine's best friend, biggest partner, most important patron.
And if this rupture, this blow up, this meltdown in the Oval Office means that the relationship now is on the rocks, it has great consequence for Ukraine, especially. It has great consequences for Russian aggression in the world, for Europe, and for the United States, I would say.
Right. And for all those reasons, I suspect, history will keep turning over this encounter for a very long time, as will we in this conversation in a few moments. But I think it's worth setting up a bit what led to this blow up and talk through the kind of dynamics into which both men entered the Oval Office on Friday. Yeah.
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Chapter 3: How did past U.S.-Ukraine relations influence the meeting dynamics?
Right. Well, first of all, it's important to know the history. President Trump has never liked Ukraine in particular. He was convinced way back in his first term that Ukraine had been opposed to his election in 2016. This is a Russian talking point. Right. This is a Russian intelligence fable, but one that Trump bought into. And, of course, Zelensky was the other guy on the phone.
He had the, quote, perfect phone call, not so perfect, that led to his impeachment, in which he tried to bully Zelensky. into launching a fake investigation of Joe Biden.
Right. Two men have never had such awkward history, perhaps, as world leaders.
Very awkward history. And during the last four years, when Trump was out of office, he was never supportive of Ukraine in its war against Russia. He praised Vladimir Putin for being a genius for sending troops to pressure Ukraine into making concessions. And he opposed... aid to Ukraine, basically blocked it by Republicans in the House, forced them to block it for about six months.
And sitting next to him was J.D. Vance, who was famously quoted saying, I don't care what happens in Ukraine. So these are not supporters of Ukraine going into this meeting. And then over the last two weeks, you see the relationship really deteriorate. changed dramatically.
Instead of Joe Biden sending arms and standing with Ukraine saying, we will never, never, never not be with you, you have Donald Trump coming in and calling Zelensky a dictator, saying it was Ukraine, falsely, that started the war.
Adopting Russian talking points about whether Zelensky should have to have elections, never mind that Vladimir Putin is the dictator, that he started the war, and that he has fake elections at home.
He was basically 180 degrees changing American policy towards Russia and Ukraine, making clear that in this new Cold War that we've been talking about now for so long, America was essentially switching sides.
Right.
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Chapter 4: What role did J.D. Vance play in the Oval Office meeting?
Mr. President, Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media.
And this is when things go from bad to very bad.
You should be thanking the president for trying to bring it into this conflict.
You start hearing Vance say, you should be grateful to us and really putting Zelensky on the defensive there. And Zelensky, of course, has thanked America for three years quite prolifically. But, you know, what's actually, I think, striking about that demand by Vance, you should be thanking us, is he is demanding that somebody thank two leaders who haven't supported him. Ukraine.
Trump and Vance don't support Ukraine, and yet he is saying, you have to thank us. Right. And as Vance and Zelensky are really kind of going at it.
Do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people into your military?
Vance is pushing Zelensky on problems the Ukrainian military is having with manpower and so forth. And Zelensky says, yeah, of course, we have problems. You'll have problems too, though.
Even you, but you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future.
Yeah, just translate what he's saying there because it feels like a really important point Zelensky's trying to make.
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Chapter 5: How did Trump and Zelensky's views on security differ?
What an extraordinary moment, right? Right. These two leaders really going at it over who and what happens in this conflict in the heart of Europe.
We should say, at this moment, all three of these leaders, seasoned leaders, could have chosen to de-escalate what's becoming an incredibly acrimonious, almost shouting match. But they don't. They all seem quite loaded for bear. Yeah.
They do. This is where clearly a lot of weeks, if not months of tension have come to the surface and they're just exploding in this meeting. And they're saying what they have been thinking or feeling for quite a while. And it just escalates rather than de-escalates. And you finally get to the point where Trump is relitigating the whole Russia investigation.
Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia. Russia, Russia, Russia. You ever hear of that deal? That was a phony Hunter Biden, Joe Biden scam. Hillary Clinton.
He says, Vladimir Putin and I went through this whole Russia hoax.
He went through it. He was accused of all that stuff. He had nothing to do with it. It came out of Hunter Biden's bathroom. It came out of Hunter Biden's bedroom. It was disgusting.
What an amazing thing to say, right? The person he clearly feels a bond with is Putin, not with Volodymyr Zelensky, who runs a democratic country that has been allied with the United States and is under fire.
The problem is I've empowered you to be a tough guy.
Finally, Trump lays down his cards and he says, but you're either going to make a deal or we're out.
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Chapter 6: What were the consequences of the Oval Office clash?
And then the reporters are escorted out of the room.
Peter, once the shock wore off, for me at least, and as I told you, I'm watching this as well, I had this sense, and I wonder if you did as well, that people in the two delegations, the Zelensky camp and the Trump camp, they're going to find a way to try to smooth this over after the cameras leave the room because, of course, they are there to sign a deal.
Exactly. This deal is supposed to be signed. They're supposed to use this deal to put the relationship on a new foundation going forward. And now with the cameras out of the room, are they going to make apologies or at least smooth it over? And will they still have the lunch? Will they still sign the deal that was the whole point of him coming in the first place?
Will they have the news conference been set up in the East Room waiting for us any minute now? We don't know. But then suddenly we get the answer. Zelensky's car has just pulled up to the door of the West Wing. And he's leaving.
We'll be right back. Peter, pick the story up where you just left it off. What ends up happening behind the scenes, based on your reporting, that ultimately ends with this day becoming totally unsalvageable?
Well, what we end up learning later is the two teams, the U.S. team and the Ukrainian team, head into separate rooms in the West Wing to collect themselves after this bruising battle in the Oval Office. And Zelensky still wants to salvage this thing. He still wants to sign the deal. smooth it over. But the U.S.
side, Trump and his team, are meeting in another part of the White House, and they are furious. And the answer to them is no. It's over. Tell them to leave. And two U.S. officials then go to the room where Zelensky and his team are and explain to him, you're out of here. Basically, they're kicking Zelensky out of the White House. Exactly right.
And so the reporters were all rushing out to the driveway, and there's this black Chevy SUV, the Suburban, at the door of the West Wing and out comes Volodymyr Zelensky looking very grim-faced as he climbs in. And then the suburban pulls out of the White House driveway and off the White House grounds and you realize just how much has changed in those few minutes. Wow. So lunch is off.
The press conference is off. Trump's aides are busy eating the lunch that had actually been prepared for Zelensky, this roasted chicken and creme brulee. And Trump issues a statement on his social media platform. And it says, I have determined that President Zelensky is not ready for peace if America is involved. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office.
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