Adam
Appearances
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Uh-oh. I don't hear you. Oh, it's probably me. Oh, my volume is down. Wait, what? You can hear me? Yeah. Okay. But why are you such a jerk? Huh?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
That sounds nice, actually. I think about it on the podcast. Just how much... Yeah, I know. I mean, it's mostly making fun of... I think we're just kind of both like... We don't like a lot of things that that particular company stands for. It's just like... all the money raised, the front end being this big deal. There's just a lot about that space that's really annoying to me.
How About Tomorrow?
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So I just, it's very easy to make fun of. But yeah, I would love if we talked about it less. It's just, it is hard. Like the nature of what you guys work on, it just comes up.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
That's a good point.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. People are still going to, by and large, choose Vercel. The people they're converting are trying to convert. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Well, now I've been perusing your Twitter and I just have so many questions because I'm not... I'm not seeing these live. One first, not a question, an observation. Liz, waking up and being mad at you. Casey gets mad at me about Dream Adam all the time. I do stuff in her dreams and I'm like, it wasn't me. You realize I didn't do that, right? Yeah. But what if you did? I didn't.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I literally didn't.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Stop waking up and going back to sleep.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I've never had a negative dream about Casey. I'm like a puppy, I guess. I've never had a dream where Casey did something bad. I don't know. I'm just naive.
How About Tomorrow?
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I've never had a dream where I was mad at Casey because of something she did in my dream. She's never done anything in my dreams that was something I'd be mad about, I guess. That's funny. I don't have a lot of dreams. Do you ever think people are either like puppies or kittens? Like people are either cats or dogs. Like I'm more of a dog. I'm kind of like, like I'm just happy about everything.
How About Tomorrow?
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Like play with me in case he's more of like a cat. She's a deep thinker. Like she can hold grudges. She can like, yeah, just, yeah, yeah, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Okay. More tweets. Cause we're not, we're going to run out of time. Uh, there's so many, so many questions. Uh, but this one's a quick one. What was your sponsor tweet today? Again? PP poopoo. What is this?
How About Tomorrow?
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Now you're looking for a job.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
He said, he'll give me a dollar. That's too funny.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
So look at that. And then his tweet calling you a sellout. I love it. Okay. That was fun. I'm glad I asked. Let's see. What's going to disrupt the whole industry? You quote tweeted, Sunil.
How About Tomorrow?
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Verso might be hiring. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I'm so excited that we can finally talk about this. You're so obsessed with containers lately. What happened to you? This container guy. Sorry, continue.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Do you just have Docker running on your Mac all the time now?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Like some kind of animal?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
All the time. I hear it's better on Linux. Sorry, I'm derailing.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, on Mac, it means something.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I'm not smart enough to know what, but it means my machine is crippled, and so I don't run Docker. Continue, container boy.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
It's just a tool that we haven't really had. All kinds of new possibilities. Yeah. Yeah. So you've been an investor in Cloudflare for a long time. Am I too late to invest in Cloudflare? Did I miss? No, dude. Are they still in the early, early, like in terms of the stock? Sorry.
How About Tomorrow?
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But you call them a hyperscaler. They're already considered... I don't know where they fit. If you take, let's say, Google, Azure, and AWS in one little bucket, I don't know if any other companies belong in that bucket, Oracle or something, I don't know. But if you take those big, big ones... And then you take the Flies and the Rinder and whatever, all those other littler companies.
How About Tomorrow?
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Where does Cloudflare sit? If 10 is the AWS and then one is the little companies, is it closer to the big ones or closer to the little ones?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
And by building a platform, you mean like data centers, the whole... No, no, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I would say Cloudflare is way more on the... Well, yeah. I should have realized like public company. That's a tell. Like obviously they're... a large company in that case. Yeah. And they need to absorb DDoS traffic, you know? Yeah. And that's when you say their core business, that's where they started, right? Just the, like the security at the edge kind of thing. That was their main business.
How About Tomorrow?
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And then they turned, they turned that into this whole cloud platform.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, and they're better at that stuff than AWS. There's not great options on the AWS side. I mean, there are options, and I guess the cost...
How About Tomorrow?
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Yeah. Who are the people doing DDoS and like why? I don't know. Some of them seem so random. Like if I have a public endpoint up that's not affiliated with anything big and it starts getting DDoS, it's like, why?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
uh-huh like we have dev and staging environments that are not like publicly crawlable or like discoverable in any way and it's amazing if you just look at logs just for any internet property anything publicly facing just the amount of noise on the internet the amount of requests from like random i guess there's like wordpress exploits and all these weird things that all these bots are just peppering the internet with it reminds me of like
How About Tomorrow?
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It makes me think of all the radiation just flying around in space. It just feels like this crazy amount of noise that if you tap in, you just say, I'm available on the internet. Boom, you just start getting peppered with all that stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh, yeah. It's like doing a missile launch. Yeah, exactly. It was like a test launch. Okay, we can do that. Now we know if we need to take down a government. Yeah. Two terabytes a second, no problem. We got it.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. I mean, if I just start thinking about some of this stuff very long, it just kind of blows my mind, like what we have accomplished as humans. You just start thinking about all the underwater cables, what the internet physically is, and then like... all the software layers upon layers upon layers that have gotten us this point and all the possibilities.
How About Tomorrow?
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Like we start talking about these weird, obscure things people do that I would never do. It's just like, there's whole worlds that exist digitally and physically that I just don't know anything about. And I'm a technologist. Like I feel like I'm more plugged in than the average person by a lot. And it just kind of boggles the mind. Us humans, we're pretty clever.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Like Pixel, what is that called? Pixel streaming? I think that's what it's called.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I'm realizing I'm confused about how this works. It's not in the browser. There's like an app you run.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
It's like a generic shell. Oh, it can be in the browser.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
But how do you, how do you use it? You run some kind of client app and then any game can be played through it.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
So there's a platform that you're using for this, I guess? It's an NVIDIA thing?
How About Tomorrow?
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I mean, how many months before you'd buy that GPU at $20 a month? Four years. And there'll be crazier GPUs by then and crazier games, I'm sure.
How About Tomorrow?
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Yeah, that's the case where, like, a month's subscription is good. You still have to buy the game. There's lots of things. Oh, okay. So, like, a one-time fee for the game?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. So this is the big like change. I remember as a kid, playing like Super Nintendo and my parents being like, this is crazy. How did they come up with this? Yeah. And like, it was just so beyond anything they could imagine. This is the kind of form of gaming that's coming along that's going to blow us away. Like the things our kids could do that we couldn't do.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
We had to buy cartridges and we had to download games and we had to whatever, buy CD-ROMs. And now they can just stream from the cloud.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
In real time? In real time. The real ships are being tracked anyway, and they have all that data, and they put the real ships in the ocean at the real spots. That's insane. In the right kind of ship.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
This is getting too far. What are they building over there?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
You can get out of the plane on Flight Simulator?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
This is wild. I feel like governments are going to use this to simulate diseases and I don't know, something.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Huh. They should really collaborate like Open Next. Maybe this should be under the Open Next banner. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh, okay. Yeah. So that franchise has always been well regarded, right? It's very crazy accurate. Who is behind that? Was it just some former pilots that got hired by Microsoft and have this passion for this? It's the kind of thing where it feels like there's so much energy and something invested into something. There has to be reasons that they care so much about making this so good.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Or is it just that people like it and they buy it?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Like all the different aircraft cockpits and stuff. Like I've seen the screenshots. It's like, they've really like, they've got all the planes and all the details about the plane. It's just crazy. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Can pilots use this to learn things? I mean, I feel like, do they, I guess? It feels like so much effort put into something for just like...
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, like, he's constantly in Atlanta. He's based out of Atlanta, but he lives here near me. Like, they just commute. They just hop on a plane in the morning and fly to the airport.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
But they have, like, they can just, like, get on a plane to go to the place where they're actually supposed to fly from. It's like... Oh, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
it's a hour and a half flight to atlanta from here so he just has like an hour and a half commute but not a normal commute we're talking like eight hour drive commute i guess there's people that like commute to san francisco from la like rich people that have jobs in silicon valley it's like in our head it's a one and a half hour commute a lot of people have a one and a half hour commute
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. And like twice a week. It's like, it's crazy. pilots, like truck drivers, but classier, much classier. Sorry, brother.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I want to say something here that reminded me to our listeners. It's because sometimes I forget we have listeners and we're not just hanging out. I get a lot of emails or messages after every episode. It's funny, this last one, the number of people that reached out being like, oh yeah, React Native sucks for that. Here's the thing you should use. And I'm already forgetting.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I think it was Capacitor was the consensus. It's just crazy. It's kind of fun to have a podcast where you can just publicly complain about something and then everyone's like, here's answers. Here you go, solutions. Thank you to all of you listeners that offer up information. I don't always reply, not like I'm snooty. It's just like... Uh, you can ask Dax. I don't always reply to stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. I guess you do say a lot of similar things, things in the same vein about lots of people, companies, whatever. And it doesn't really bother me. I think this one was hard for me because I have a connection to this person. Oh, I see. I hate conflict. Like, I hate... I'm a Midwesterner. I want everyone to be happy and glossy and everything is fine.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I should reply to work related, uh, terminal things. Uh, just sometimes I get busy and I just ignore DMs. That's the first thing to go for me. DMs. It's the first thing I just kind of like wholesale or just communications in general. Like when I'm busy, I got like programming stuff in my brain. I just, I stopped communicating. Sorry.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Out of your sink? Like out of the drain?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Really?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I know you didn't intend probably to delve into the details of this, but I'm going to. Because I just have curiosities. They were coming up from the plumbing department. Out of the drain? Yeah, they're called drain flies. Yeah, yeah. So they're like... Next question is, isn't there like a bend in the pipes that like keeps water at all times? Like how did the flies get through the little bend?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
But yeah, drain flies. It's a thing. Drain flies. Just learned something new today. Yeah. How are the mosquitoes doing since Mosquito Joe did his thing there? If I want to come to Miami soon.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I did not experience that. We did not ever have a day where it was like, we're good today.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
And the connection is literally I use Dracula and have for years. Like, if he didn't invent Dracula as a theme, I wouldn't have cared. But...
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
When is next time? I guess they're talking about React Miami already. Yeah. Are they selling tickets already? Is it that soon? Or do they do it that early?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Did you just get distracted? I feel like I got distracted and you got distracted. A little bit, yeah. We both just got distracted. Maybe it's the same thing. What did you get distracted by?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh, just looking at the clock. That bored, huh?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Next week, special guest. So exciting. We'll keep that as a teaser.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
This episode, as always, is brought to you by Terminal Coffee. You can buy your coffee from the terminal. SSH, terminal.shop. Let's take a break.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh, yeah. We might as well give them credit since people think that they're sponsoring. They're not. Believe it. There's no money flowing from Cloudflare to any of us. Well, I think.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Well, enjoy your meeting.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
This meeting can end a little early so you can get on your other meeting. Yeah. Okay. See ya.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Tokyo Night's like the default, isn't it? On like NeoVim or something? I didn't know it was a default.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Before it was a default.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I'm teasing about it being the default, but Dracula is also like super basic, super common.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
So there is a Darkula variant, I think. I see. I want to say that is actually a thing, too. I use Dracula Pro now. I'm levels above the normal Dracula users.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I've gotten in a lot of trouble this week. Are you actually in trouble? Can you actually get in trouble? Is it possible for Dax to be in trouble? And with whom? Is it possible for me to be in? I guess not. Like real trouble. You know what I mean? Not like internet trouble. Oh, no, you've been canceled. You don't care.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Slightly different colors, which I'm sure you could just find on the internet and not have to pay for it.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
You have like the opposite personality. I mean, maybe that's why I like talking with you because I just dream of being able to do the things you do. Like I saw the message you sent him and I'm like, wow, what's it feel like to just be like, now what, what do you want? I just can't, I can't imagine being like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, because ever since the DHH episode, you're like, how can I be more myself?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, I read the Jobs biography, and I'm probably every other tech bro that was like, yeah. I really appreciate that. I think it's more for me. It's less like, ah, he was a tech tycoon. I just want to emulate him. It's more just I'm from the Midwest, and it's like you... Steve Jobs, people who are just direct and just say what they think and feel. I just wish I could be that so badly.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
And I feel like I can't scrub the Midwest off of me, like just 30 something years living here. I just, I can't help but be kind of fake, especially with people I don't know very well. I really wish I could not be. And I think that's the thing I admired like about Steve Jobs, about what I'm seeing in this interaction for you. It just like, It feels very refreshing.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
It's so antithetical to how we interact with people in the Midwest. And maybe that's a blanket statement, but I think it's pretty true. I think it's pretty... East Coast, the whole thing you said about what is really kind, being direct and actually saying what you think and feel, that's kinder than pretending to be kind.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Like you're in imminent danger. That's something you actually have to think about. I don't think I have to worry about that. But that's something you could consider. There's a lot of money on the line, Dax. It's true. There is a lot of money on the line. Something like $300 million. Sorry.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I just, I wish, I wish I were born on the East coast and just had that like, F you attitude, but like coming over later. I don't know. So what'd you do to resell? Yeah. I I'm catching up now. There's, there's some, there's some tweets out there.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Just to clarify for everyone who's not familiar with this world, Open Next does things with a Next build output. But then still, Next is so complicated to deploy, you still need an adapter On top of that, on top of the Open Next piece, to work on a given platform?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
There's one process to turn a Next.js build directory into... into the thing that works on a given platform. I got you. So it's more of like a branding and then like stewardship. You're taking over stewardship of this Cloudflare thing, I'm sure with their support, but putting it under the Open Next banner.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
It's kind of obvious, but... I was going to say there's one thing I can think of and I just want to say it out loud, but I'm not going to.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I didn't see that one.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
That's not, that's not common for a defensive top G reply to one of your tweets, right? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, I will say, like, during that rant last week, I do feel like, like, I don't know, I wouldn't put that out there publicly. Like, just the things you're saying, I'm kind of surprised.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So like, is it worth, like, I think drones just make those calculations really crazy because you're risking a multimillion dollar thing and someone with like a thousand dollar drone can spend a thousand dollars and like take away millions from you, right? So yeah, the whole asymmetry thing is pretty wild. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I think for people in filmmaking, it just totally... I mean, filmmaking in the loose term, like just people doing... Yeah. Twitch streamers?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay. Well, it's funny because I did have this thought where in every movie you've ever seen, there's always like an overhead shot. There's always overhead shots all the time. Yeah. Yeah. What did they do before drones existed? Did they just buy stock footage? But that's so much crazier. It's like so loud. And it's like rent a helicopter to get this overhead shot.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I mean, even for a movie, it's like. Just to have like a three second overhead shot to set up a scene.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
They had to rent a helicopter and do that. That's like, I mean, that's a lot.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
No, they use a drone. I got my... I think I posted a picture, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's so well thought out. Like, I mean, people in the podcast can't see. But this is like a thing to put my iPhone into. And it like... Has handles and has a built-in SSD in the handle. Oh, built-in SSD in the handle. That's cool. Oh, man, this thing is so up. Okay, so see this? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
This handle right here, here's what's crazy. Inside of it... You can open it like this, and it has a SSD slot.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, yeah. So I put that in there, and then it plugs into my phone, and I just record straight to that. That's pretty awesome. That level of creativity, there's a million little details in here like that. The handles rotate, so you can get different angles. But the reason I brought this up is this is in partnership with some guy named Brandon Lee.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
He's an independent filmmaker, so he always makes it. He'll do a two- or three-minute thing that he films with this. It's crazy how creative they get like they attach this they like create like a they want to like overhead chase footage so they put it on like a zip line and they just let it go. And it, you know, follows the people. Um, they're like, throw it over stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Like they'll do pretty, pretty creative things. And yeah, it like comes out.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
What did you, did you not see this, the thing going around? Do you know that series, that zombie series, uh, 28 hours later, 28 days later, uh, 28 Days Later sounds familiar. Okay, so... Is it a movie? Or is it a series? Yeah, it's a zombie... It's a zombie... Originally a zombie movie, 28 Hours Later, which is like, you know, the idea is 28 hours after a zombie thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay, that's what I remember, yeah. And the sequel is 28 Days Later, which is like, you know, more time has passed. Uh-huh. And now they're doing like 28 Months Later or something. Mm. And it was going around because the whole movie is filmed on an iPhone 15. Yeah. And I was like, wow, that's so crazy. Cause it's, it's not like an indie.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Cause like my perception is like, because you're a white, I'm just like, there's no way it can be that bad. I don't know what it is. I don't know if this makes any sense, but literally I'm just like, okay. Like Adam's like, Oh, I'm always late. I imagine that you're like five or 10 minutes late, you know, because I'm white. Well, cause okay. Like I'm around a lot of people all the time.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay. The first thing I did was like, I want to see them using it.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So I was like looking at pictures and I was like, I can't find any pictures of them using the iPhone. Then I realized that the thing they had in a tripod, which was this giant freaking device, there's an iPhone in there, but it's like, it has like... So they use like crazy cinematography lenses and stuff on an iPhone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some company that...
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's like thousands and thousands of dollars of gear on top of the iPhone.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So it's not that. So it's like, okay. Like interesting. You're basically, you just built a camera. You built your own camera. And like, it's, it's still impressive.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's where it's weak.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I don't know how... The lens can still help with that, but... Yeah, there's definitely certain limitations of what you can and can't do. And I watched a bunch of videos of professional cinematographers like... explaining how far they can go with the iPhone and like where the limits are.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And someone actually went and like did a bunch of shots, like identical shots with both compared to it. Yeah. And it's like, and even, even he said like, technically I'm going to prefer all my camera gear. But the gap is really small. Yeah. And he was like, especially going back to when I was starting out, this is like a million times better than anything I'd ever had like earlier in my career.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's wild. Yeah. The camera stuff obviously like looked better, but man, like it still looks very professional, the iPhone.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Still remember the sound it made? The little beep sound when you press a button? Yeah. No more. Doesn't exist.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I've always been horrible at navigating. So that's huge for me. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well, I wasn't a citizen until like right after the previous election.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's confusing because I've been in the U.S. for 25, 26 years or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I just didn't. Like, I've had a permanent resident green card for a very, very long time, since I was, like, 12 or 13.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And like,
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
they will be one to two hours late and won't even acknowledge it oh so it's a it's a very different thing and like that's intense getting out the door is uh is a challenge and like so like whatever you're saying i'm just like yeah it can't be that bad it can't be that bad okay i'm a i'm a white person how bad can it be don't worry maybe again relative to your community maybe it's you're the worst but maybe if you ever come here you're gonna be like early to everything probably
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. It's exactly like that. But I mean, to be fair, I did apply for it. Like it did take me several years because one, I think this was right when Trump got elected. They slowed, like the process just slowed down a ton. Yeah. And they made a mistake and rejected my application. And when they make a mistake, it already takes them like a year to get back to you.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And then it takes like so much, it takes so much time to like appeal it, then to acknowledge that the mistake and you know, all that stuff. So yeah, it took me super long. Um, but when I got sworn in as a citizen, uh, it was like during the end, it was like during COVID, like not like deep in it. So they brought us all into a room and it was like, it was so weird.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Cause it was an, a giant room with like a grid of chairs, but each chair was like three feet apart from the other one that we were all just like sitting in like, Oh, cause he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, and the judge wasn't physically there. He was doing it over zoom. But what that meant was he could do, he was doing like three of them at a time.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
There was like the one in Manhattan and the one in upstate New York and one in, uh, He was doing three simultaneously. And I'm like, this just... You just increase efficiency by 3x minimum because now there's judges literally in three places at once.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
To be honest, I think every person should have to do that at some point.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. They make you swear all these things. And it's so, it sounds so intense too. Like, you know, I love like dramatic stuff like that. It's like, I, I like forsake any allegiance to any foreign Prince. It's like, it's like lines like that. It's like, it's really intense. I commit to doing that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well, the one that gives you pause, the ultimate downside of being a U.S. citizen is no matter where you go in the world, you owe the U.S. government taxes.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Not every place is like that. Right. Like imagine you leave the U.S. and you go.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Which people do, like there's like billionaires that do that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's right. Okay, here's another funny dynamic. So the U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship. Oh, really? It's this funny thing where you're like, what is dual citizenship? it's just one country being like, ah, it's cool. You know, the other countries have to say it's, yeah, it's cool. The U S does not recognize dual citizenship.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So you basically say like, I like renounce any citizenship, whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. So they have something called India is still like, you're cool. Yeah. That's how they have something called an OSI overseas citizen of India, which I need to apply for. Um, and that lets me, you know, worst case, if something horrible happens, I can go. Yeah. on property there or whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Like just like, but like technically what is your stance? Your stance is you're an American and you shouldn't be. And that's it. You know, you shouldn't be half in half out, which I kind of agree with. Like, I don't, uh, I get it. I think that's maybe the right policy to have. If you're,
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
the country everyone's immigrating to yeah yeah if you're the country where everyone's leaving you're like you'll just do whatever you can to still like have some kind of tie right yeah obviously india a lot of people from india moved to the u.s so it's good for india to like latch on to them somehow yeah you know how there's like a subculture for everything and like there's people who are really into like every most obscure thing you could ever think of yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're in Europe...
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
uh because now they have the eu citizenship thing which is uh so convenient like i'm imagining how bad it was before imagine if you had to deal with it felt like international travel every time you like left missouri just like a different state in the u.s that would be tough yeah because i leave my state all the time i mean you left this week didn't you i guess i did yeah okay yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, you're one of those?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
You were already an adult. You must have driven to Florida at some point.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Wait, you've never been to Europe? You've never been to?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Have you been to, what other countries have you been to?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
What does that mean?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's a freaking river.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Wow. North American AF. AF.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, I know. I had to swim here.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
There was there's some tech stuff we had. Next Conf was this past week. I can't believe we didn't live stream go over like live stream. Well, after that disaster last time.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I forget. Remember, you couldn't figure out the layout. We kept putting ourselves way too much over. And TJ was going nuts in the chat.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Never going to forget that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
There was a slide in the keynote that had Open Next on it.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, this is cool. They gave two Open Next contributors $2,000 each.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I know. Look at that. Who knew? They published SST examples in their repo and their docs, and they're going to, like, publish... They published, like, not just us, like, Render, Netlify, like, a bunch of different examples. Netlify announced that they're joining OpenNex as well. Wow. It's a movement. Yeah. So look at that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And it worked.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
After exhausting all of their options, they just went with this one.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
cool so that's uh that's going on i still think next year sucks just had to get that on the record yeah i know because i i like want to do something with that uh with that still dray so i don't know if you know that dr dray still dray yeah he has like this whole yeah yeah oh yeah like because because everyone sees me being nice to vercell and they're like oh Like, have you changed?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Like, what is this? This is not what we're here for. But listen, I'm still me. I still think Next.js sucks and it's for babies.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It would just hurt. It's weird. You can just turn off the app and it's like, it's like nothing is happening. That's crazy. It just, it just, it just is not real life. And yeah, I can be abrasive and just, it's not open my Twitter and it's like, it doesn't exist. It like literally just doesn't exist. So it's like this universe that literally exists in my pocket and nowhere else.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's funny. The truth is exactly the opposite. I'm like, Oh, Adam's life is going well now. And he's just like, you know, He doesn't like need all this stuff anymore.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's gone. I don't even see any... I mean, I told you, I've shifted to read-only on Twitter. Sorry, write-only. It's funny because you'd think it's read-only. No, it's write-only. No reading. Only writing. Yeah, I actually don't really know what type of stuff is going on.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It means you've peaked at them all downhill from here.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I just don't. Yeah, it's funny because I think it's a combination of you don't care and it's hard for me to separate because I think I'm kind of in a similar place, but I perceive it as nothing is happening.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Does that make sense? I feel like I've been thinking about the exact same thing lately. I had a... So I have a similar situation. Like, I have... I have a friend that... I mean, it's a group of friends, but I'm thinking one specifically that... And I've known all these people since I was, like, in middle school. So people that, you know, I've known for a very long time.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I'm that developer that's like... Oh, you guys use Svelte for content.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, that's the one with all the signal stuff, I think. Cool. Or runes or whatever. Yeah, so I was saying this to somebody else.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
earlier this week um i've been on like a several year journey ever since i left elixir to figure out my tools for the things that i build yeah and i think that journey has come to an end basically like basically everything is solved where day to day my pain point is like just styling and like making stuff look and feel good and everything outside of that
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
is very good and like i don't really have significant problems with it so i think that's also contributing to my lack of interest because yeah Everything's hit my bar and all the problems that I was looking to solve are basically solved.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well, that was the context in which I was talking about this. I was like, I'm way more interested in actually building stuff now than I am improving my tools.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, yeah. Things have gotten decent. There's one or two things I still need to build. I keep begging people to build it, but no one will do it. Like a tool?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I posted this the other day. The last thing I'm missing is a job library for just like the JavaScript ecosystem.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, so I keep being like, someone build this. If you build it, literally, you will get millions of downloads because it's so needed. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Are you going to build it?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
People have enough conviction around it. Yeah, so I'm going to do it. So I'm reworking the console right now so that it uses less AWS-y patterns so that it can run in other places because people need to self-host it.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
in aws but also in other places yeah uh and the key thing that's missing is being able to just do async work without relying on sqs and the lambda or something yeah yeah five flare doesn't have code build i guess yeah no i just mean the general like event stuff like like kicking off an event okay so i'm building something that
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
One of them in particular... was at least particularly close with. So he's having his first baby next month.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
it's an adapter thing so you can have it backed by postgres or mysql or sqs if you like you know have that available um okay yeah cool that's one thing that's like the last so it'll just be like an it'll be like an sst thing or it'll be like a dad no it's just going to be like a library i'm like i see we'll probably have nice support for it but like a normal library that really should have existed i don't know why
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I don't know what people are doing. You got to do async work and you're not using... What are you doing?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Lots of them. Yeah, I know. Every time I bring this up, everyone's like, why don't you just use Ingest? And then they link me to the Ingest self-hosting thing. And I'm like, I'm not fucking going to deploy this three-node architecture so I can kick off the two background jobs that I need to run.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I actually want to build it entirely using AI or using AI in a very different way. I think I mentioned this already. I gave a trial run of doing this already for this using Bolt.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
um which is like this ai thing that from the payment no no there's a payment company called bolt the funny one um this is a new product yeah i need them to add a few more features but when they do i think i should be able to like build up because i'm trying to port an elixir library oh okay like elixir has their their job library obon is perfect and i just want to port it over and like support adapters yeah and yeah the lm was doing a great job at it and i was giving it feedback on design things i didn't like and
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, I want to try building like a real library with something like this.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Andoril.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And I didn't hear about it until like a month ago. Oh. So it was just like, and it's not like, it's like the reality of, it's not like a rude thing at all. It's just like, we don't have, we just kind of lost any natural way that we natural situations that we would cross pads. Um, so I did, I did message him and we ended up, you know, he ended up calling me and we talked for a little bit, but yeah,
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And drill. What if it's like and drill? Visually, I think it looks like a fantastic name. When I read it, it sounds great. Now saying it out loud, I'm like, this is kind of awkward to say.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And SEO good.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, the ultimate name is just a random sound that has never been made before.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
The fuck are you smiling about?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I write so much go.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, because like the SST, CLI, yeah. I'm doing a fun thing. Did you see, you got me on Twitter, but did you see that Ghosty's going to hit 1.0? Are they going to release it publicly? Oh, no, I didn't.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, yeah, I knew that was going to be a reaction. I knew that was going to be a reaction.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
oh man i love it yeah so here's a cool you said next month what'd you say i think he said december yeah they're shooting for december but here's a cool thing that i didn't know did you know ghosty is built as not an application but as a library and an application i saw this i saw you talking with mitchell about this on twitter i did not know that
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well, I didn't understand it because he was like, it's a library. He mentioned that you can use it to build a multiplex. And I was like, I don't really understand this split. But then as soon as he said, it's a library and there is a front end for Mac and a front end for Linux.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Basically, the library, it's a terminal emulator in that, like, you can load a process into it and it basically has an API being like, given a 500 by 400 screen, here's what each cell should look like. So you can just take what it gives you and just paint the screen. And you don't have to know anything about it. So the front end's just like, you know.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, I don't know anything about it, so that's good. Paint your thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
But point being, he built a terminal emulator and he's releasing it as a library too.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay, so the front ends are... I'm sure it's both because I'm sure you want to render it efficiently and use a GPU and all that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
the terminal like processing terminal codes and like figuring out when a process emits this like you need to change this cell and update the color and then all that stuff that's in the library okay and that's amazing because i'm using a very crappy implementation of that that i found in go and i found a bunch of bugs and i patched them for the sst multiplexer uh and he made me realize like oh yeah i could
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
embed ghosty yeah and like i'll start the process in ghosty and ghosty will tell me oh here are the cells well here's what the cells look like i can paint that and go so sst the cli would be powered by ghost that's that's why i tweeted like Okay, so we wrapped Terraform, and now we're going to wrap Ghosty. We're just, like, following Mitchell around. He's doing all the real work.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, there's just this thing like if you're not basically talking every single week, it just becomes, like you said, this heavy thing where it's like it's very formalized way of communicating. And it's like one person saying a bunch of things about their life. And you're just like, oh, cool. Oh, nice. Great. And then it's your turn. Then you say a bunch of things about your life.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. I did some more research, and I found out that there's another... There's already another C library called libvterm that I could have used if I understood any of this before. But I might try that in the meantime.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I think this could be really impactful if it's adopted correctly because VS Code, for example, has a really shitty... Their built-in terminal is like... So much worse than the most of native terminals. Like I find there's so many SST multiplexer bugs in the VS code terminal, which a lot of people use, unfortunately. So if they swap to using this under the hood, couldn't improve a lot better.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
You can build like a terminal on the web using it. Yeah, that breaks my brain.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Hey, you use Tmux all the time, don't you?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I was very confused about this until I worked on... I feel like there's so many layers.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. Because there's... Everything you just talked about, the emulators, but then they don't actually do anything. You're running... What are they emulating? I don't understand. The CSH inside it, probably, right? You're running like a shell. Like, what the hell is a shell?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And in the shell... You spawn a multiplexer, but the multiplexer spawns ZSH sessions inside of that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And then those start the processes. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. Ultimately, I think the root thing is a terminal used to be a physical thing. It was a physical device.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And when it had the width and the height, that was like a fixed physical width and height of the terminal.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It was something that you could like resize and whatever. Okay. Yeah. And those terminals can understand certain codes. And you've come across this for the terminals.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ANSI, ANSI codes.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So it's just not the way that. you know people hang out and it's it's really sad uh and i guess it's just a reality of getting older and like going through different phases of your life but uh wow, like I just never really thought that this was a thing that would happen.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. So now we have emulators that interpret those same ANSI codes, but then they paint to a
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. And terminals have two modes. Wait, what? They have two modes.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I forgot what the... Is it called normal mode? I don't know what the normal mode's called, but I know the fancy mode's called raw mode, and that's what we use.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, we put the terminal in raw mode. Have you ever had your terminal, like, something crash, and, like, nothing in the terminal's working? Like, it's printing all these weird characters, and, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're trying to hit buttons, but just printing, like, weird codes. Uh-huh.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's because a process put that terminal in raw mode, but then it crashed before it could reset it out of raw mode. And raw mode lets you do all kinds of crazy stuff like,
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
repaint stuff and like go over stuff interesting that's what we use for like a terminal.shop it's in raw mode it's been a very very educational episode of tomorrow you told me you weren't interested in tech anymore i gave you the most boring information about all this let's talk about terminals and emulators that sounds interesting it actually kind of is
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
You know what I mean? Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I, I'm actually, now that you mentioned it, I am going through a second phase of that. It's a, so it is like a handful. So I like my, my friends from school growing up and dealing with that, you know, kind of not being as close anymore. And now that I'm in Miami, it's all my New York friends.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I'm going through a second phase with that as well. It's almost the exact same thing. It's not like they're still in New York. They all moved too, so they're having this problem with each other as well, I imagine. It's funny because literally all they would take to fix it is to turn it into this thing where I'm messaging them every day, even just a little.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
There are people I message every single day or at least a couple times a week. It's just that... there's no trigger or like my brain doesn't think to message them. Like when I see something that I want to share with someone, like they've just rotated out of the set of people that I share stuff with. So yeah, Yeah, all it would take would be for me to actively remember to do that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
But as little as it is, it just doesn't happen.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay. I hate that concept. I just don't want to think about it.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Both Liz and my mom also said this, and I think it's true because I've experienced a year that was like this. They say time goes slower if you do a lot of different things every year. Yes. And we had this past year, we did a lot of different things that we don't normally do. And it feels like a very long year.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Like we're coming up to the end of the year and I'm like, wow, like I can't believe that React Miami was this year. That feels like... Five years ago. There were so many things that we did this year, so it felt like a slower year than the year before.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I can't believe Dallas was just, what, two months ago? That feels like so long ago.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Did you see the disaster? Yeah. That happened? No. There is a conflict. Oh, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
The JS Nation speaker dinner is at the same time. Oh, no. What channel would I see this in? Well, there's a Sentry channel that Wes messaged me about it. So I emailed the JS Nation person. Let's see what they say. I think we'd lose like five people if every single one of them decides to go.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
We didn't even have enough for teams of five. We had enough for teams of four. So we're going to have to... It's two teams, right? There's going to be teams involved.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Nothing? We're going to be on one team, but there's going to be... We need three teams besides us. Sorry, we need four teams besides us. Okay. So that was 20 people. If we do teams of four, I think it's totally fine. That's down to 16. Yeah, we're at like... If every single one of them decides not to go, we're at like 13 or 14. So we'll figure it out. It just would be a bummer. Bummer.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well... I did send an email and I was like... You know, I said, like, no, we could give all the speakers free tickets to come and all of that. But I was also like, hey, the speakers are really excited to go to our thing. So they're probably not going to go to. I didn't say that explicitly, but yeah, you kind of hinted at it. She puts that together.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
In the back of my head, I was like, one thing is going to go wrong. There's going to be one thing that goes along.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And then here it is. Here it is.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, this is what she's built for.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
AJ heard about this and he was telling me that, you know, it seems like AJ is someone that is very good at hobbies. And I learned that he has...
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
a he used to have a hobby used to be on a paintball team that basically went like national pro or something whoa okay yeah he's gonna send me a picture all pro aj look at him i was saying okay we need to do some kind of thing where someone jumps out of a plane related to terminal and like yeah he's gonna do that for us they can do that for us you know yeah yeah we got a guy
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
No, I was asking him what the laws were on... Base jumping? Like, what is the law? Like, can you just jump off of a plane anywhere? Like, can someone jump out of a plane and land in my backyard?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's not really killing ourselves. It's just like landing in the middle of the city is sketchy, right? But he was saying that basically it's if you meet certain certifications, which are quite hard to meet, you can basically do whatever you want. Wow. So I think we could have someone jump out and land in my backyard, you know, if you name that precisely.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Did you see Anduril's new drone product? Who? No. Obviously not. I don't even know who that is. Okay, so you know how Palmer Luckey, the Oculus founder, founded a military company? No, but I believe you. Okay. Okay. He did. It's called Anduril. Okay. Anduril? Anduril. It's the name of Aragorn's sword.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Anduril.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
They make products for the military, like missiles and things that blow up, but they put out product reels. It's like an Apple product. It's a totally different vibe. It's not the Apple vibe, but it's that level of production where it seems like it's a consumer product. But they're selling these drones now, again, to the military, that can blow up.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
They have all these crazy capabilities of being super precise and They do these dive bombs and they blow up right above the target to the shockwave. Yikes. It's at maximum lethality. So yeah, drone tech seems pretty legit. Have you seen all of the... Pretty much all these big events have started to replace fireworks with those crazy drones.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I mean, the New Year's thing we went to this past year, like in my neighborhood, dad had a drone thing going on.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
You can just freak out people. Just like, just start projecting really crazy shit.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. It's like a perfect line.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
What's crazy is it's made by humans. I know. It's a thing that's made by humans.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I live in Miami where nobody's sense of time can be trusted at all. So at this point, including my own. So at this point, I just don't even. So you're desensitized.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I think after that, the Ukraine, Russia thing, I really understood how much of war is like just economic things. It's like you imagine that you're trying to win a battle. So you just like send in your forces. But it's this deep calculation of like, this tank costs X million dollars. If we put it in, it takes out this other thing, but that thing costs less than the tank.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
She seems legit. She costs as much as a lawyer. So she better be legit. Yeah. It was like an eight hour evaluation. I sat in there all day with this woman. I mean, she had seen me twice before. Like this was kind of like she recommended we do a full assessment for a few things. And it involves sitting in there with her all day long. So she got to I couldn't hide any bits of me by the end of it.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
That's tough. Yeah, it feels like... I mean, if you really believe that what you're doing is good, like you're doing something for other people, it feels like you're sacrificing a lot of your life to live that life. Because, yeah, sitting in a room every day with... I can't imagine. It's hard for me to spend an hour in therapy. I can't imagine doing it all day long, every day.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And it's amazing just immediately how many threads on Reddit I've read that I'm like, wow, that is so nice to see I am not just weird or whatever. Like there are people who have navigated this and found good solutions. So the main, the crux of the problem is,
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Not the boring one. Oh, now I want to win over my therapist. I want her to want to be my friend.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I mean, you spend, like... as a person spending, like, on the patient side, you're spending time with this person every week. It's a friendship. Like, it becomes a friendship. But, like, they can't just have all their friendships be their patients. So they have to, like, look at it very differently, right? Like, they're not just becoming friends with everybody that walks in the door.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Because that's what will make me happy. I did just come out of a little slump, a depression. I hesitate to call it depression, not because I'm like, it feels vulnerable or something, which I want to get back to that, what that word means. Not that like, I don't want to be viewed as weak or something because I'm depressed.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
More just like, I don't know if it's actual depression and I don't want to make light of like people who have depression, capital D, if that's like a separate thing. I don't know. I don't know. It might be the same exact thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah. Oh, I want to talk about Brian Johnson in this episode, too, because he's kind of like made the leap after. I feel like we talked about him before. He was definitely in like the public light. But then the Netflix series came out and I feel like I see constant things about Brian Johnson now.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
if I were a single man and I didn't have a family and I just was a lone wolf, like I seem to want to be at times, like I, I tend toward lone wolfness, just very isolated. I enjoy autonomy. I don't seem to need people. Uh, if I were that person, I would just be manic all the time. And that, because it feels amazing. I mean, it is a high and I,
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, he's like and I saw him reply to Theo. Like he's he's kind of like. In our Twitter circle, in ways, he's touched it. And it's very interesting. Where do you want to go next? What's going on? Twitter? Do you want to talk about something? There's lots of news. There's an inauguration. There's lots of memes.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
How do you watch stuff like that? Was it on YouTube or was it...
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I thought – so if I'm being honest, like seeing a lot of the clips of people speaking and like there were speeches, all that stuff, I didn't know. I just thought it was like hand on the Bible, hand up, say some stuff, and that's the inauguration. I didn't know there was like – a whole thing about it.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, increasingly secular.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It's bizarre. It stands out.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I didn't, I didn't watch the inauguration, but I've sensed there's an above average amount of sucking up this time. I don't know what that's about, but.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Sorry, I've been trying to think of words. And that one just came to my head.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
There's a lot of like societal acceptance of people who get a lot done. And I get a lot done when I wake up at three in the morning and when I don't want to do anything but sit at my desk and produce things. Like it is rewarding in so many ways, mostly career and just feeling really good. Like I'm on crack all the time. But it's like also terrible for my health.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
So that's my read as well. And it's very funny to me how much. Christian America backs Trump and is like... I mean, it's just a huge part... You can't separate religion from politics because it's like so many people in America... align with some religion, specifically evangelical Christianity. And it's just like this thing that everyone knows. They all vote for the Republican.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And Republican and Christian are just kind of like this weird amoeba thing that's mashed together. Amoeba wasn't the right word. This weird molecule that's been mixed together. And it's just... I don't know. I can't talk about it without getting really grossed out because it kind of bothers me. But yeah, I mean, just like when I was part of that...
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
belief system I saw it in like the mega church in Springfield Missouri has like the politicians come through during that season it's like September October they all stop in the church and the pastor like announces them and they stand up and wave and like everybody claps and like it's just the whole thing is so dumb to me like I mean just the idea that like I don't know if you believe in something like Christianity just show me the overlap of those beliefs with like
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
religious people's side that they've drafted this thing onto him and decided he is this thing i think he does what every politician does which is like say the amount you have to say to like get the vote for that you know what i mean like that constituency anyway yeah uh i feel like we can't not talk about elon too just how much he's played a role in this presidency and the inauguration and all of it i don't know like what's the deal he he donated a ton of money i guess yeah i thought of money and like yeah just do whatever he could to
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Like, so I would probably live a very short, intense life if left to my own devices.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Do you think that weighs in on why people like Zuckerberg are now so pro-Trump? Is it like, we're not going to let Twitter and X have some edge?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Oh, you mean he's still Lizardman? Yes.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It does seem like... I don't remember last time when Trump had his first term. I don't remember all these corporate tech giants getting so behind.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, you don't sleep enough. Like I sleep four or five hours a night. That's not enough hours.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Right, for the GPU stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
But it feels like it's enough. That's what's always been weird to me. I've always said like, I just don't need that much sleep. Like Casey sleeps like almost twice as much as me. And I'm like, it's whatever. I just don't need much sleep. I'm an abnormal adult. But that's just the mania talking.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Well, that's what I was going to ask. If it's over four years, is the argument from them just... It's $125 billion a year. Yeah, so is the argument from them that they're just... they're going to raise $500 billion over four years? Like...
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And I did know that I have these like periods where I'll go two, three months where I'm really not sleeping enough. And I'm up and very excited. It's like Christmas morning every day. And then I crash for like two weeks where I just don't want to get out of bed. And I sleep like 10 hours a night. And it's like, this is weird. What's this about? Is this depression?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
If they really said up to $500 billion, that's a pretty hilarious marketing gimmick.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Can you speak to just like what they've announced with Stargate? Like it's just data centers or what are they saying? And it's just for open AI to use to build new models?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It's kind of hard to even fathom $500 billion.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, something like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Because it's doing all that. It does real-time stuff, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I've always been back and forth and never thought about maybe there's a happy middle. I just don't know how much of my life I've lived not in one of those two states. It feels like most of my adult life, I've been one of those two things. Now, as a married man with children, I have to figure out I am my best self, my best father and husband self.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
OpenAI, like, going to ChatGBT for, like, you just don't even think to ask, like, a current events question because you just know, like... I don't think it can do that stuff, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah. Let's talk about the whole AI landscape right now because there's so much going on with like DeepSeek R1 came out. I guess people are very impressed with this model. It's open source. And where does OpenAI sit in the landscape? Because Claude, I mean, there's all these other models that people use that pay for subscriptions for. Like is OpenAI behind DeepSeek? Are they still leading?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Because for a while they were leading.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
So you asked an actually really interesting question I just glossed over earlier. It was like the Stargate thing. Is scaling it really the problem? Do you have thoughts on that? Like, can we scale this current thing?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
What do you think about quantum? Because there's been all these headlines too. Google had a big... We didn't talk about this. They had this big breakthrough with quantum computing, which has always just kind of been like this thing that is coming, but not really coming. And we don't actually know how to do it. But think about the possibilities.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Now it seems like there's actual potential for commercialization in the next... some number of years. Do you think about that, how it relates to AI? Because all this stuff that we're doing with the types of LLM, the approaches to building these models would all be completely different in a world where quantum computing was a part of modern infrastructure, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
insanely useful and going to transform society but not it's just not clear whether like it's going to be in a shape that like meaningfully impacts ai and also on the timelines and yeah a lot of stuff can happen it's so like tantalizing when you read the headlines with quantum computing like the stuff it can do maybe it's just super specific stuff but those things it does like
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Maybe not my best co-worker slash cog in society, but I am my best human being to be around when I'm not in those extremes, when I sleep enough and I'm healthy and I'm not just jittering all over the house. I actually think about other things when things slow down. I don't just think about my work. So yeah, trying to figure all that out. I think I'm in a normal state right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
billions trillions of times faster than a computer or just like does it and a computer couldn't like a classical computer could never work it out before the heat death of the universe and it can do it in like five minutes or whatever you just can't hear those headlines and not think like well what could that do with ai like what could what could that do with these approaches to like synthetic intelligence i feel like
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
the potential seems crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
So it is really, really good. But I take issue with the idea that This thing, we've created a parallel version that's just a shittier version of our brain. There are things it does that I couldn't do. Yeah, it has infinite memory. The memory thing. Yeah, like the ability to pull context from areas I've never heard about and put a coherent answer together.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
That feels very useful, especially in our line of work as a knowledge worker. Yeah. How do you explain that in terms of like, it's just memory? It just has more memory than us or it has more, a wider memory?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Oh, you're saying like if we built a whole different approach to AI that was more like our brain,
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
This is such an interesting moment in time where all these companies, you think of NVIDIA and then all the major tech companies, Google, Amazon, OpenAI, whoever, they're all pouring so much money down this path because they have to. They have to assume it's going to work out and they're going to beat the other people. They have no choice.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And a trillion dollars will go in this space in the next five years. And it's like, could be wrong. Oopsie.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Fantastic. It's actually a team. We have a small team of nannies. We have two. OK, so one one of them can't do enough of the hours. So we found somebody who does want more hours. So we're kind of shifting the one into more of a babysitter ad hoc role and the other into the full time nanny. Anyway, it's yeah. It's a group effort. We have special needs children. Literally.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I don't know if the podcast listeners can tell or if they've seen my bipolar over the years.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It's the bigger short.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
How do you make that contrarian bet? Not like I'm actually going to try and make this contrarian bet me in my middle America.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
You're saying the contrarian bet is the person who makes the alternative that goes hard down that path. It's not just like shorting all of their stocks.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
actually wins where everyone's betting on a thing that ultimately loses so there's like a crazy opportunity for whoever is uh able to have clarity on that and maybe there isn't nothing turns out they're right yeah it could it could be right yeah it's just yeah it feels like it'd be really hard if you're like a founder type and you actually have the credentials to do this to like get people excited about i mean maybe not maybe there's people excited about everything but to be like we're gonna go a different direction
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Forget the whole LLMs and what's the underlying thing, transformer architecture. We're going to do a totally different thing. I guess there probably are companies doing that and getting funded.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It seems like a noble mission. It seems like somebody needs to be building the backup plan because it would just suck if this really did all kind of... It feels like there's no way to know if it's a dead end or not. It's just like you have to build these giant data centers. You have to stuff more and more GPUs and more and more training data into these things to figure out the limits.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I mean, it feels like anecdotally, it feels like I spend a lot of time in the upper state. and then crash into the lower state for shorter amounts of time. But that's... I mean, my memory is not very good. I think that's probably another... Like when you spend a lot of your time not sleeping enough.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I think the worst case, I guess, as I think about it, the floor is still pretty good. This stuff is useful. It's just, is it useful enough to warrant the biggest investment in history in any one thing?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Interesting times we live in. It really does feel like... I kind of feel lucky sometimes just to live in this timeline. I mean, I know some people hate this timeline, but it feels nice to get to see all this stuff unfold in our prime of our career. What are the odds? Or maybe it'll be crazier stuff that our kids get to witness, but I don't know. It feels pretty cool.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
You think about how little the world changed.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Interesting. Yeah, that's a good point. Most people have been born at this time.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
So maybe, yeah, maybe not medieval times, but think like 150 years ago. Like the world didn't change a lot in your lifetime, right?
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Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Cause they saw like electricity come into being like, that's pretty crazy to go from like candlelight to like, there is electricity.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Interesting. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Like to all parts of life, culture and life. I don't really notice that the clothing changes anymore. Do you? I don't pay attention enough. I'm probably so out of touch with my dress, how I, how I dress myself.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, I don't know if I pay attention enough to the world. I thought you just meant like software and stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, I thought you just meant. Yeah, no, software too.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It is interesting that, like, I have a ton of mid-century modern stuff. Like, where is the last... 60 years of furniture change. What is the new stuff?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I mean, you can't, you can't walk around in a city like we were just in New York. I mean, I guess not just New York, but it was a few, a couple months ago, whatever. Just like seeing buildings with crazy architecture. Just like the ornate stuff on the facades. Oh, yeah. The older stuff. Yeah, just like... We wouldn't do that anymore, would we? Is that just like an old man yells at cloud thing?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I don't even understand.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Why is that? There's something there. There's some deep psychology to be unearthed or it's really simple. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Like we don't put enough value.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It's completely unrelated. Twitter. There's a thing. There's one last relic of LinkedIn that lives on Twitter. And it is... Oh, what is it? It is... I'm a parent who just loves my children. And I love playing with them. If anything takes me away from my kids for an afternoon... F that I'd rather play with my kids. You know what? Shut up. Stop it. Because I'm a parent.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, so the number one thing I can do to keep from going manic. Well, one, I can't consume caffeine. Sorry, terminal. I really can't. Like it 100% of the time shoves me into mania. I'm pretty sure. So I have to avoid caffeine, which is fine. I've been drinking decaf and enjoying it. But the number one thing I can do is just sleep enough.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Okay. Well, I have kids and I'll say this.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And I don't know what I've said about my kids on the podcast. I love my children. I honestly believe it's the greatest and the worst part of my life. It makes all the highs higher. I don't know if I've ever said this on a podcast. I'm sure I've said it to you in person or something. All the highs are higher. All the lows are lower. Life got way more intense since we had kids.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
We've got a 10-year-old, so it's been a decade now. I love my kids. I would not say that like on a Saturday afternoon, my favorite thing to do is play with them. There are some times where I just miss playing with them. I haven't seen them. And I, I want to just, that's what I genuinely want to do.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
But a lot of times I play with my kids because they need to be played with because they're bored or they're whatever. And like, it's an obligation at times and that's okay. It doesn't mean I don't love my kids, but to act like, yeah, I don't know. Like all I want to do in life is be a dad. maybe it's my bipolar speaking, but like, that's not the case.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
There's definitely some kind of like, we all want to be good parents. We all want to be viewed as good parents and people who value our kids. I think our generation, too, like... I think there's some amount of, we were shaped by our parents, our boomer parents, who maybe didn't, they wouldn't have said these things if they had Twitter back then.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
They wouldn't have been like, man, I just love to play with my kids. There's a bit of millennial identity that is, we love playing with our kids. And I don't know, I just, I don't want to like, I'm not trying to shame any individual who says that their favorite thing to do is play with their kids or that they hate activities that take them away from their kids. That's fine. Maybe you actually do.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
But I do think there's a bit of like LinkedIn-ness to it where we all just want to be viewed as like amazing parents. And it's hard. Being parents is hard.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
If I just don't let myself get out of bed before five and I go to bed knowing I'm not allowed to get out of bed before five, like put me in a straight jacket, tie me to the bed. Like I cannot get out of bed. And it's really hard to go into that hypomanic state when I'm sleeping enough. That's, that's the best thing I think I can do to stay normal.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Put that very smartly. Thank you for making that sound smart. You took what I said and you made it smart. I love it.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I think you should just respond to tweets like that and be like, listen, from someone who doesn't have kids, shut up. I think it'll come through really hard if the fact that you don't have kids.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And that's why I call it out, not to shame the people who say it, but to like push back on this feeling because I have the feeling when I see stuff like that, Just like the, I'm a dad. I can't believe I'm a dad. I'm the, it's the best. When I see those kinds of things and I have any bit of like, oh, but it's also like so hard. I feel bad about, am I just a bad dad?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And it doesn't help like being bipolar. And honestly, like, I wonder like, do I just not enjoy my kids as much as most people? Because I just want to be working because I'd rather be manic and at my desk all day with coffee. Like there's that fear. So I definitely have all these self-conscious, like bad feelings. And then I come back to it and it's like, no, you know what?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It's just, it's hard being a parent and we don't all feel that way. It's, it's like a ritual. Like you said, I, it feels like one of those things, like everything that's posted on LinkedIn. Like we just say it to get the claps and then yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
The hard thing is to not slip into depression, which is where I just sleep a lot and I don't feel like doing anything.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
If we all just constantly say how much we love Next.js, then when we actually do love Next.js and we have that feeling like, man, this is a good framework, it cheapens it because it's a ritual now. It doesn't sound real. So we have to actually be real.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Oh, what's the wife guy thing? Oh, no. I'm probably this guy.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It's unfortunate because I'd love to be super relatable and share all the actual difficult things in life. But that stuff doesn't really go on social media very far. So it's like you can't really help that many people. No, I think it does.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
What was it? When was this? How did I miss it?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Okay, not screenshot a potato. I'm still scrolling. No, no, no, no, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Uh, I think my therapist said something about like, I need to like sleep is the biggest tell, uh, or my psychologist or whatever she is. But I think I just kind of put it together. Like, I know, I know that it's not good to be getting up at three in the morning or two 30, even I got, it just makes sense that that's not like some weird, unique superpower I have.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
That's a good one. Uh, it has 95,000 likes. okay, what's that like? Does it even give you notifications? I always see those tweets and I wonder like, what's it like to get 95,000 likes?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I see where this is going.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And we all know it's fake. It's that thing where we're doing it, but we know it's so fake. So there's something about that that we all just like, yes, thank you. I hate it. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, I got you. I just scrolled forever. You tweet so much. I was trying to find the tweet so I could like it. I want to join 95,000 people in liking your tweet.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Oh, because it shows you your top, like the public view of people's profiles, like their top tweets. Yeah. Oh, that's so funny to think about. Like, what are my dumb top tweets? And that's not a great view of me.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
That's a big leap.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Step function.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Sorry. Step function, yeah. Order of magnitude. Order of magnitude. That's what I was like. No. That's one of those founder words, you know?
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Just add another zero.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It's been an hour, hasn't it? Okay, yeah, we should just be done. I gotta pee.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Oh my God. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
It's like, no, it's just not good for me. And I, it's just hard to imagine if I'm getting eight, nine hours of sleep a night, having that brain state. I don't know. Outside of like drinking caffeine, I guess.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I mean, I don't know that it works. You say, how did I figure that out? Like, this is like, I've tried it for a week. So we'll see. We'll see if it actually works.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
But in the other way, I could mean that, I guess. I don't know. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I'm also special needs. Okay, yeah. Let's talk about that. I'm bipolar, which I think I knew. I even found a tweet where I tweeted something about hypomania. probably talked about on this podcast. My memory is very obvious. It's very obvious. Yeah. In retrospect, I should have always known.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
You think about that a lot, don't you? You just run your life based on how did great people live? You want to be a great person, don't you? Not faulting you for it. I think we all do. We just don't all put it in practice, probably.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I got to ask more questions now. Cause I, I just assumed like that made sense to me, but it's not necessarily lined up with what like society views as great people. So it's not like the like default answers to that question. You have a different set of great people. I think it would be a, well, it's not, I'm not going to be like, it's Hitler.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
That's another topic that's very hot right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah, just not all the great people. They don't all check your boxes. Like there's people who are considered the great people of our time and you don't.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah. So it made me think of Einstein. Like Einstein wasn't known for being a good hang.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Lots of interesting thoughts.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah. I could listen to Richard Feynman, Feynman, Feynman, Feynman.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I could listen to him talk all day long. Sometimes like when I get tired of whatever book I'm listening to, I just pull up a random YouTube video of his where he's lecturing.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I don't know what he's talking about, but I just, I love listening to him talk like somebody who really knows what they're talking about and is very passionate, even if they don't necessarily communicate in a way that I can understand. It's just very fun to listen to.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
But the thing that's not obvious or the thing that I'm now that I actually have the official you are bipolar diagnosis is
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
Yeah. So I guess I do want to, I want to go back to the bipolar thing briefly. I wonder, so it's mostly like working adults that have bipolar. It's not like a thing I've had since I was a kid, or maybe I had the, I don't know. I don't understand it all fully. Maybe I had the predisposition, the genetics somehow. I do have someone in my very close family who,
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
that has had some pretty intense manic episodes that kind of led all this, brought it all to a head for me and my wife. I need to get diagnosed just because we want to know, could I ever have one of those situations where psychosis, extreme kind of disassociation with reality, and just knowing some of the things about bipolar, it sounded like I might have said disorder. But it's basically like...
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
largely working adults and I look at like tech and I wonder if it's, I guess what I would say is this, if you find yourself not sleeping near enough, I feel like there's gotta be one listener out of all of our listeners that's like, oh shit, that could be me. That sounds kind of like me. Not that it needs to change your life. I'm not looking to get on medication.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I'm not looking to, I just wanted to understand it. and kind of curb the main drawbacks. People with bipolar die like 10 years earlier or something. Makes sense. If you don't sleep, that would add up over time. So yeah, I think if you don't sleep enough and if you find yourself real excited about your work, Like more excited about it than anything in life all the time.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
it's not obvious how life should work or how i should be like i enjoy being manic or hypomanic i'm not sure that i'm actually manic i'm just new to the bipolar reddit uh i'm catching up to speed it turns out lots of people that have lots of similar life experiences that's the great part about diagnosis is i never would have thought to look up like a community of people with bipolar and like what do they have to say about things
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
And you can't sleep because you want to wake up and work on it. And then sometimes you're kind of depressed. Just maybe look into it. Maybe DM me. Sometimes I get a DM when I talk about stuff and they're like, hey, I didn't know that was me, but that's me too. So that's nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
You could just not sleep and not be bipolar.
How About Tomorrow?
Being a Great Person, Adam's Diagnosis, LinkedIn Parents, and AI Money
I wasn't really getting it. For me, it's like it's like every morning feels like Christmas morning. Like when I'm hypomanic or manic, whichever it is, it's like I cannot stay in bed. I'm too excited. I got to get up. And sure, there's like projects at work that that's probably normal for people. But when it's like every day for three months, I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's kind of nice, though, because it shifts from a lot of undefined abstract work and thinking to a bulleted list of fix this, fix this, fix this. It's done. Wake up next day, fix this, fix this, fix this. And you look back after two weeks, and now it's suddenly really polished. So it's a good, nice phase to be in.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Let's go. It's funny because Jay sent this screenshot of all our blog posts for the previous versions, and they're almost exactly a year apart. Wow. And every single time we release it, we're just like... I can't think of anything we could ever do. Definitely a year later, there was like a giant release.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
But I will say this time around, even though I said this before, we are like out of fundamental ideas. Like there were all these things that we wanted to do that we just couldn't in V2. Even when we released it, we knew that it was in support X, Y, and Z. Now it really feels like we can do everything. And if this doesn't grow a lot bigger, it just means a fundamental idea is wrong.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Like I don't think it's the execution. I don't think it's any of that. So I'm glad to finally be able to be at a phase where it's clear that if it's working, it's working. If it's not working, it means like... And there's not like any mystery around why it's not working. Yeah. But like I said, even already the adoption and growth has been much better than anything we've done before.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So it feels right.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. That's what I've been doing.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Is that the big release for the NFL season, the mobile app?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Is it because people don't use their computer anymore? I guess a lot of normal people just do not use a computer.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So I couldn't fully understand what he was saying, but I was like, Oh, what are you doing outside? He goes, I'm digging a hole. I'm like, But he wasn't like, I'm digging a hole, and here's why. He just said, I'm digging a hole, period. Yeah. So I had to ask, why are you digging a hole?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think it's entirely around the touch and the scrolling. That's my feeling. So if you build a good app, again, take Linear. Linear's a good app. If you use it on mobile web, there's probably nothing better that they can do, really, at that point. And It's just limited by the way it feels.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. But then if you joke too much and you become that guy again, you have to start joking again on top of the joke. It's so hard.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. So I think what I think about is there are people that work on high performance web stuff that drop down to Canvas.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
and initially it's like why the hell would canvas be any faster right it's like you're still rendering rectangles and like doing all the same stuff your browser does and your browser doing it natively so why is dropping down to canvas at all uh faster like that like just never made sense to me but you do get more performing uis if you do that i think it's it must be entirely around
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
the browser being a thousand percent backwards compatible with all the old layout systems and all the old styling stuff and like just the decades of of things and i'm assuming that puts a ceiling on on uh on performance which is why when you drop down to canvas you like are not implementing the whole history of things you're just implementing exactly what uh the type of stuff the program model that your current application is doing
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So I'm assuming that native apps probably also have a history and have similar issues, but I think it's a little different because you can control versions of the OS. Some apps don't work on older versions. They actually remove things. So I think it's purely that.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think it's a difference between an infinitely backwards compatible, maximum accessibility, maximum whatever, versus a more controlled thing. I think you're always going to have a gap there.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And he goes, and this is a part I really cut up, so I, like, didn't understand what he was saying for a bit, and then I, like, it was a big awkward pause, but I think what he said was, my dog hasn't been running around or eating for a month, so I think it's time. So...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. It's got more responsiveness.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Way more complex than a 2D Tom. So who's done this?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I'm pretty sure Ken Network... Oh, Ken has done stuff. Yeah. I think a lot of their stuff is Canvas-driven. Because I think they deal with... They deal with the classic...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
ton of data in uh like in a table type of thing yeah and that like very quickly hits the limits of traditional browser stuff yeah yeah the famous example is figma right like they're doing everything that's like is that canvas or is that is webgl the same thing okay yeah it's it's a mix of or something canvas webgl they're all kind of related okay
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And this is Flutter, right? This is what Flutter is.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I thought Flutter was just Google's react native. Yeah. But I think the web version of it renders to a canvas. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I don't know if the performance is better. Like it could just be worse given what their. I want somebody. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's just black holing.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Let's just, we'll see if we get any emails. Who knows? You should try the Flutter thing. I do wonder how it is. I think the other problem is web. Once you go to Canvas, your operating system has no idea what's being shown on screen. So a bunch of native-y things probably don't work.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
You have to re-implement copy-paste in a manual way. You probably have to... Any accessibility stuff, like hitting tab to go to the next element, all that. So I see why people really only use it for things like... that are really not document-oriented at all.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Did you hate it so much that you're, like, wondering about this?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, Expo's great.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
oh no gonna put the dog down and he already dug a hole for it he was digging a hole and he was like okay now's the perfect time to call dax and talk about this
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Well, then I guess what's the boundary? Like what did you decide to do natively and what's a web? Why is it not all web?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
How do you feel about the result? It feels pretty good.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's like, it's so hard to get a hold of him in general. Yeah. And that's like the moment he chooses to be like, oh yeah, I'm free.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
This is one of those things where I'm like, Xbox made it a lot better, but... It's still to me, it just is so painful still that I will just reorient what I'm working on to never. Yeah. If you follow this logic, ultimately, I'm going to end up starting a company that only serves an API because I can't think of something like that's how you eliminate anything that like sucks.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
If your whole product is just an API.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, that's actually a really good point. There's this tediousness of front-end and we both work on front-end a lot and we care about front-end, but there's like a tediousness to it that just doesn't exist on back-end where I think this is where... the sense that people have that front end is quote unquote easy.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I kind of get why people feel that way because you're not really using your brain that much. Like a lot of the time you're more just exerting a high level of like labor and just tediousness to get through certain things. Whereas back end, you almost have none of that. So it feels like you're just using your brain all the time. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I do so much front-end. It's crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
You know, it's what it's like.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Maybe I could just. But then like the front is going to get worse. Like, are you okay with that? No, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Maybe it's a racial thing. I feel like maybe I think. Well, if someone looked at you and me, they would guess that you're the front end engineer.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
My favorite form of this is when literally at the last second he'll ask a question being like oh man oh yeah yeah no no no just like he's like he's like kind of like vaguely worried that nothing has been figured out yeah but it's like way too late at this point yeah he's like did we book hotels and it's like we're it's like tomorrow well you you said tomorrow like you're flying tomorrow to dallas
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I don't care, actually. You tell me later what your birthday is.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I was very traumatized after the last situation. I also really like that your background looks so much like mine now. It looks like we really are coordinated. I think I want to move my camera further back so our heads are the same sizes.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
This is ridiculous. This is really funny. Yeah. Someone's going to be upset. Yes, there are some roles that are very senior on the front end. We acknowledge that. Sure. It's also funny.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Do you feel like you're always just going to be shipping code as a job? I mean, I used to be, I also used to be a manager. Here's, I think it's, I think it's like a weird, if I look at my own situation, I think it's not exactly like, Oh, I'm going to grow out of it. I think it's more like, uh, so my time that I was like a hundred, I was a hundred percent manager, zero code at all, which, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's pretty crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. Here's the thing. I didn't think it was awful. I did not think it was awful. My work was very, very extremely well defined. Every single day I had to meet with X number of people. Okay. Once I finished that, I had no other work to do. Literally nothing. There's no work I could have made up for myself.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And you can make work for yourself. You can always make work for yourself. When you've met with everyone, there's no work you can make for yourself.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's true, you do. Yes, it's an easier job.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Here's what the actual job is like. I think it's the perfect Black Swan type of thing, which comes up like every episode. Every single day, my role was extremely predictable, extremely stable, very easy, very straightforward. It gave me a lot of time to actually, I actually programmed a lot while I was a manager, just not at work stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I was able to like work on ideas, learn new things, et cetera, because my day-to-day was so well-defined. But every once in a while, once a month, once every two months, I there would be a couple of days of like intense stress and discomfort because my team failed to ship something and the rest of the company is is really pissed or they're upset.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And like, you know, there's a bunch of chaos and people want to know why and all the stuff. And you're the one has the answer for that. So there was that. No joke. There was also another situation where we were looking for a data engineer forever. And it was like the big bottleneck for a company.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
The CTO kept getting bogged down in data engineering stuff because he was the one that built it originally. And we were like, we got to find a data engineer to replace him because like so much is getting backed up for this. We found one. Great, great. Finally, we unlocked this problem. Two weeks in, he was on a call with someone else and there was three people on the call.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think one of them might have been external. One person left the call and he said something like insanely racist in front of the other person. And then now it's like, okay, well, it's messed up if we would let him go but only keep him because this is a very stressful situation for us. Another person was really upset by it, so... Yeah, then now the back. So it's like stupid stuff like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
You know, it's like it's when you run into stupid stuff in code, it almost feels like understandable. The world is how the world works. When you run into stupid stuff like that, it's just like it just feels unnecessary and kind of like. genuinely stupid. But I would say overall it was better and it just like it's sort of like workload being predictable and stable and everything.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
No, no, no. I'm going to Maine for Alan's wedding. Oh, right.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
yeah i think i agree with you that the majority of the people posting that stuff in these mid-level manager roles at big companies like they're just following some template of like this is what a manager is like and they think that it's impactful when it's really a technically useless job it only exists as a side effect of you do need someone to be a router and coordinate yeah beyond that it's like it doesn't really have to exist
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
But that said, the previous role I was in, I was also technically a manager, but I was not a middle manager. I built the team from the company being zero people. This was a very different situation because it involved getting people motivated
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
to do stuff that was like well beyond what they thought they could do or like kind of like irrational at times like working way harder than uh they technically had to just having a team that's like really motivated really excited but like run through a wall that like to say like we need to do this and they were just kind of like run at it yeah i think there that there's something real there there's like
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
an actual leadership dynamic there. I don't think it shows up in middle managers at all.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, I get there at 540 something. Prime also gets there at five something.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, yeah. So if I'm in my current role, I'm no longer in a leadership role, and we're only three people. even though we're only three people, like Jay is technically the CEO. Yeah. And he does pay a crazy amount of attention to all these micro things that I'm not even thinking about. And it adds up a lot. And I definitely, he like definitely like pulls, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Like really, really great effort out of me. So, yeah, I mean, you play sports like you get what I'm talking about. Like there is like an invisible thing that can happen when you have a good leader. But it's not this stupid like check in with your team every two weeks to see how it's never that schedule for your one on ones.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
That's all. It's Monday. OK, so here's the schedule from Monday. Well, this podcast doesn't go out after I spoil anything.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
No, but I mean, I didn't. I said this other thing is something I value. It's different. And I don't value this middle manager thing. I got you. Here's the thing. Everyone can do whatever they want, but I don't believe in glorifying everything. I'm going to still have my opinions and values on what I what is worth glorifying and aspiring to and being like, that's really great.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, it's not everything. It's it can't be everything. What is worth glorifying?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And then I got a personal it's a personal question, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I have this very, you know, here's a good way to figure it out. Mm-hmm. Everyone will cry at some kind of movie situation.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
No, but there are some things that will bring... I'm not saying you would cry, but some things bring tears to your eyes, whatever. Mm-hmm. I think you can derive what you care about from that. So for me from that, uh, the thing that always gets me is anytime someone's being like extremely honorable, like beyond what you could like imagine someone doing or like doing some kind of crazy sacrifice.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
What do you mean? I guess it's fine if we spoil a little bit.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Uh, that's what I really like value. Like that always brings a tear to my eye. And I think I really value that. If you derive that further, like a lot of those things are rooted in leadership. It's usually like a leader that is going above and beyond, uh, for a group of people that are leading. And that's why this flows all the way down to like, yeah, I do really care about great leadership.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I don't think middle managers are represented that, but I do think there are people that are. Okay. That's my thought.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Our listeners get a little sneak peek. The schedule is we need to be at the basketball venue around one because the thing starts at two ish. So we go there, like set up figures, figure things out. So if we leave around one, we'll get there at the right time. So that only leaves like from the morning, uh, like around eight, eight, nine ish to, uh, to one for us to do other stuff. So, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Is it when people don't have good lighting in their shot?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
We'll be making fun of Adam. We'll probably be posting funny pictures of him. Probably. We'll probably be taking him to places and situations that he's very uncomfortable with. He's probably going to be having weird interactions with people.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think the plan right now is on Sunday, we'll get dinner and we'll talk through some additional ideas we can do for the basketball stream. Yep. So TJ is going to build just the thing that David designed, the overlay.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, he just posted it today. Oh. Yeah. So bare minimum, TJ is going to build that in Laravel with Livewire and all that stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So at minimum, we'll at least arrive there already having that. So it's not like we'll have nothing. And then we'll brainstorm some other ideas we can do on top of that to see if we can get some interactivity. Okay. In the overlay going. And they'll have like a couple hours in the morning to build that. Maybe we'll work on some of it Sunday night. Me and you...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
are not going to be part of that stream in the morning because we need to go pick up something okay i'm not going to fully spoil it we need to go pick up something uh-huh okay I realize it's better to like half spoil it because then now people are going to really, really want to know what we picked up. Yeah. We got to go pick that up. We need to bring it back.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I don't know if we'll have time to do to film with the thing we're picking up because that's the purpose of this thing. We're going to film with it in the morning because we might need to go to the basketball game before we have time to do that. But the game ends at 5 and we have daylight until 8 p.m. So if we leave exactly at 5, we'll have three hours to do a bunch of stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And I think that's enough for the few things that we want to do. And then we'll go return it. The thing. The thing. If you can't guess what it is when I say we have to pick it up and return it.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Okay. And then Tuesday. Yeah. And then we're pretty much done after that. Like Tuesday, Wednesday is just hanging out. So that's what I was going to say.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's Tuesday morning. Tuesday morning.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, flying out Thursday morning.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I mean, I think realistically I'm going to be working Tuesday and Wednesday during the conference and I'll hang out in the evening.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Just hanging out? Yeah, I think just... Because the serving coffee part is handled by the catering company. So we just need to drop off... Oh, right. Drop off all the coffee. We should be there, of course, but...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think your framing is maybe better because sometimes like depending on where I'm like, if I go like that, see how my head gets cut off. So I think you're just more right. Hope all the audio only people really enjoyed that segment.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I'm really feeling like we should switch it to half court. Yeah, maybe. Because my excuse is going to be that it's going to be way easier for whoever's filming because it's kind of ridiculous to ask the person to run around and chase us. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
We have a hard line.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Nice. That's what TJ is. How's it going to be fit? It literally looks like an NBA overlay. It's awesome.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Whoever's banging the laptop, we have one of TJ's friends is coming. He's going to be working the OBS setup and he can just control the... Oh, nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
If we had like a week of just all of us focusing on this, we could have done something even cooler. Oh, yeah. I'm sure we could figure out some small things on Sunday and Monday, but yeah, with the ads going on the bottom, like...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think so. I think the biggest variable is, are we going to be able to get good footage of the thing we're picking up?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, it's really wild. I keep having this experience this week where, and this has been happening the whole time I've been working at SSD, but especially the past two weeks because we had these releases going. People talk to me about really obscure specific things. And I'm like, whoa, you like went and really looked at it to go find that, right? So I...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Uh, so we open source a terminal code base, but I, I opened the source that technically like days before I announced it and people found out, I was already getting questions in the SST discord about like, about stuff in there. And I was like, wow, it's crazy that you were just, what was like the trigger that made you go find it? Were you just like casually checking?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I haven't actually, you made a video too, right? I got to pull this up. I haven't watched the video yet. Yeah. I don't think it's going to be that interesting for you. It's just like a 45 minute overlay of like every older 45 minutes. Yeah. It was a serious video. Serious. Oh, how we sold coffee from the journal found it. Yeah. But the other, I mean the video also, right.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So it's just like a 45 minute. It's not like one of our usual fun videos. It's like a, yeah, it's more of a serious tutorial video. uh but i posted it and like an hour later people were asking me like very specific questions from very specific parts of the video and it's just wild that people do yeah puts up out there people do like Engage with it.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's even crazy to see just a handful of people do that.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Thanks. Thanks. We also know we also had a typo fix from someone, of course. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Open source is great. I also was getting so many messages with people being like, you left the credentials in there. And every time they would say that, I would panic because we have some credentials that are not changeable. Because we do this SSH thing, we have permanent credentials that cannot be rotated.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I saw your message. So I would freak out and I would go check what they were actually talking about and it was never a real credential. It's just that the readme had information about our AWS SSO setup. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I totally get because anytime you see account IDs, everyone's like, people feel like that's private.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
But account IDs are not private for anyone that's interested in this very obscure fact. They're not private. You don't need to redact them when you send them to people. You cannot do anything malicious with an account ID.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. You've been, you've like disappeared. Like I haven't been anywhere.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think in general, I feel like I literally, I just, I just haven't heard from you. Um, that's what David just said.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I'm realizing now that if I get... 10 or 20% busier, that doesn't seem like that much of a difference to me, but I see how my behavior totally changes from someone externally. So I think it just seems more traumatic to us.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, but I've also been pretty busy because we finally got SCV3 out and it was just like... Yeah, I saw that. It was two weeks after we planned on releasing it, of course.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Or they already did? Yeah, we had them in there for a little bit. Everything I need for stat news, I guess, is there. Yeah, we even have a migration guide. Like I said, it's all there, but you might still run into some blockers that we just haven't foreseen, but... Like, the stuff that applies to everyone is there. Like I said, migration is still pretty tricky, but... Okay, here's another thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So... yeah, we've been working on Ion for six months and yeah, it's been out and people have been using it. But in my head, it's always like software is slow. Like you, people need to like spend years before they actually start to use something. Yeah. I get, I've had a few experiences a week. Someone had an issue. So I said, Hey, can you send me your, all of your SD config?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So we figured some stuff out yesterday. Well, I have a little story about that. So you saw me yesterday message being like, Uh, can I do a call with someone? I'm like a confused on a few things. So prime calls me a video call and he is standing outside and he looks kind of sweaty and it's, it's kind of choppy, like the, like the video quality initially.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yep. And we have someone with thousands of resources. And they're hitting like a performance issue.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Nothing like that, actually. It's really crazy. And because I'm always like, oh, people are really conservative with new stuff. And like, it hasn't been super stable and everything. But it's somehow people power through that to like get this size. So, yeah, I just keep having these experiences this week where I'm like,
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
This is way outside of my expectations of what I thought people were doing, which is really good. It's great seeing that. So we've just been... Just really on top of every single GitHub issue, all the messages in our Discord. So just been reacting to that.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I'm just DMing right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I mean, the first release, we already have like fast follow releases two and three planned. So such is life. Do you feel like you'll ever just like be cool? Just like, I'm cool with the pace things are going. I mean, not cool, cool, but like... My wife is like, why do you get so into each release?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Why do you push so hard to get this thing out the door when you just have more stuff to do after that? It's not like I'm just done. So why can't I just take a nice, easy pace and just be like, I get done what I get done every day. Life is good. I enjoy where I'm at in life. Why can't I just be that way?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, I'm not always. I guess I go through. It's all about the like release calendar. Like if we have a target date, like we're trying to get something out for a certain time frame, then the closer it gets that time frame, the more stress, the more I push. And then after that, I'll go through a few weeks where I'm like, it's the beginning of every new phase. It's like pretty chill.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like I'm still getting stuff done, but it's just like, I'm not freaking out every day. Like I'm, I got to get this done.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like we're just, you're just always continuously releasing CICD. Yeah. You shipped a production like 15 times a day. You don't even think about it anymore. Yeah. Twice on Friday.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, web apps, not so much. When you release the web app, everyone gets the web app.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
No, can't be like that. It always, but it feels like to me and to my family when we're in the thick of it, it feels like this is how it always is. Like I got to chill out because this is always, we're always pushing, but then we're not, we forget when we come off of it. there are periods of relative chill.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, I did. I saw people leave, like big names. Chris Munns left. I saw other big names people announce they were leaving AWS. Is that all over the RTO? I actually saw the people say they were leaving before I saw the return to office.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Do you know what it was before that?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So you had to live in Seattle. You had to be near an office. No, no, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, so lots of people are having to go back to Seattle potentially, like where their team's existing. They got to commute. That sucks. I mean, for them, I would never work at a place where I had to live somewhere specific.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, you think it's good. I saw your contrarian take. When I see takes like that, when you say stuff like that, I just think like, do you really believe that? Or you just want to be the opposite of what everyone else is saying? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Can't replicate nature. I wonder if it has downstream effects for habitats, for animals. They can't live there.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And they probably, did they do it in 2020? Did they do the COVID? Is that why?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's like we plopped a suburb in the middle of a field, and we're like, move in! Come on, animals! Yeah. We're good at this stuff. We're humans. We build things.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Cause like the internet usage kind of soared during COVID. Right. So internet companies may be over hired or now.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Do you have any opinions on whether the, you said the last few years, the AWS has kind of been falling behind and just like kind of a mess, a drift. Do you think it lines up with Jassy leaving? Like they had Celepski in there and then now this new guy, it's like, do you think it's a leadership problem or just random and who cares?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I do wonder if Jesse was really good at everything. I mean, he's now the, the Amazon CEO, right? Yeah. So he must be really good at everything.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
You don't have to fight for it anymore. Just kind of like getting fat and happy.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
When you say they've fallen behind, are you talking like the Cloudflare's of the world, like in the serverless kind of ways, like the new edge or new era app development ways? Or what kind of things come to your mind when you say AWS has fallen behind? Because I would say they think they've fallen behind on AI, and so they've hard pivoted to everything about AI they can possibly do.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's the same way that Apple too.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like a couple of years of like... I don't know. I didn't leave reInvent being like, man, life is just going to keep getting better.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. On the remote thing, I guess I always thought when I started my career remote as well, and I always thought like, especially leading up when the COVID stuff happened and everybody, it was like, oh, it's accelerating the transfer to all of us being remote. I had this assumption that it was like better and that over time, more and more people would work from home.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And I think what you're saying is reminding me that's not true. Like it's not for everybody. It's not for every company. And it seemed like all the articles came out when COVID hit that like, this is just going to accelerate the work from home movement and everyone's going to be remote in five years. And turns out everyone's being sent back to the office. Five years later. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And if it's the right kind of company, like to your point, an Amazon probably doesn't make sense to be a largely remote workforce. It's like, is it just big companies? Is it just like when you're a company at Amazon scale, is it just harder to be remote? If you didn't, I guess, like you said, if you didn't start remote. Okay. So I'll give you like the dynamics because our team is remote.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
You're three people. What's that? And Amazon's about what? Three million people. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
We're all innately got steak.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Do they just know, like in leadership at big companies, they just know that like ultimately we get like 10% of an employee's effort that they would be giving at a startup. But if we have a million of them, it's enough.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
yeah everyone like lies to themselves and it like you know that thing that like work always inflates the time you have so it always feels like everyone's doing as much as they possibly can so this is what like when they talk about corporate culture and like principles and all this stuff it's to like basically it's religion you're trying to like brainwash everyone under you to like just to get that 10 out of them so that everyone's not just completely checked out doing nothing is that the idea
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Or the money is the motivator. Sorry, I'm answering my own questions.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's so foreign being a startup founder and like you, we've just only worked for ourselves on things for ourselves. We work 100% of the time and then like cut into our life sometimes to work more because the thing needs more attention. Like there's no moment of my, or is it like comms and stuff? Are they just saying like,
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
The 40% doesn't include, like, all the wasted time, like, breaks and communication and meetings.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, but do you feel like you spend 100% of your time working? Like, I feel like... Well, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
You're trying to be the most efficient. Your body's just trying to get the most dense thing for the least effort.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
You're scamming yourself, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. I just... I can't imagine, like, only spending 40% of my day, like, moving things forward, whatever work is. Like... That must be nice, I guess, is what I would say. Working for other people and just clocking in, clocking out. Or parts of it are nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's like Pleasantville or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like, people start, like, attacking the company like they just... committed a hate crime. I mean, it's like, how dare they?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, right. It's your peers, ultimately. So, you know, I have little...
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
that it like just draws a little empathy from me because like these are like this is like a very privileged category of people like i don't really care about this struggle you know so this podcast is long enough now like two uh two years no how long we've been doing this two years almost two years that's crazy uh i'm getting distracted by my my qualifier at the beginning of this statement uh it's long enough now but i feel like we should check in every once in a while on the cycle
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Where are we at? I've asked you this probably in the last three months, but like have things come off of the quantitative easing interest or zero interest rate era? Like has the collapse from all that come yet? Or is it still waiting? Are we still pending? Man, I have no idea.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, no kidding. Did the market like blow up and go up a thousand points? Yeah, super priced in.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
But then when the cut isn't as big as they thought it'd be, it crashes.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Forgetting about the market then, how do you feel about like the economy? Capital E, you know, the economy. Mostly in the tech world. I don't care about everybody else.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Why? OK, we can't just let it feel so dumb. This is so hard for me to track. They can't just let it keep overheating to infinity because we don't have enough stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Okay. Oh, I've heard of this. That's happened in some countries, right? They want like a smoother transition. That's what their goal has been. A smoother transition to just normal flation, not inflated, not deflated, just flation. We just want plain old garden variety flation. Yes, exactly. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
community or something i'm gonna say something and you're gonna make fun of me because i'm that boring white family that moves in with the white tesla in your neighborhood in the big cube box we looked at a neighborhood like this like this crazy planned community in florida where they had like this whole main street with like all these shops and there's like little like electric go-karts that everyone can just ride around freely and leave wherever golf carts or golf carts yeah golf carts they have like cards would be fun
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So when you say a smooth transition, it's if they don't do anything, it'll be a crash transition. It'll like fall to a deflated state or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
They are actually concerned about it.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Are they taking steps that are working?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I want to, I want to talk about what you've been up to on Twitter. Cause I, I've literally been on so little that I haven't seen your 30 tweets a day. Cause you just like, tell me some of the bangers, like what's been going on or just what's going on with our friends. Just catch me up. I don't know. Are you just like done or you're just not going to come back?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's kind of, to be honest, it's kind of nice to just like wake up and program. and then be done and then wake up and program and like not think about the internet and all that's going on on Twitter or whatever. Like I haven't thought about what's happening on Twitter and I don't know how long.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Until just now, which I would like to hear from you, you know, is there anything I've missed that was really fun?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Prime and Teach had DHH on, just copying us. Now DHH has officially done the terminal tour. Clean sweep, both podcasts. I called him a moron yesterday. Who, DHH or Prime? Yeah. You called DHH a moron? What for?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And they probably weren't inviting it the other time. No, no, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
They had multiple... Yeah, that would be fun. They had multi-seat bikes where families could hop on a bike and ride it, but you just leave them laying wherever. It's like the whole community, the whole... It has like a store, like a grocery store and like a whatever town center.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
This is really an interesting conversation right now. Just the multiple angles. It's so interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
uptime should be like water like just like crazy shit like that and it's funny to have that section when like they've literally had the worst downtime i've seen i'm gonna defend i'm gonna defend this person because i love dracula i use it on everything it's my keyboard theme like my physical keycaps dracula make dracula he did is it darkula or dracula dracula Dracula? Okay. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Just going to defend him for that reason alone. That's fine. Because he wants to buy some terminal coffee for his team. You know what? Maybe we could do a Dracula coffee. I would love to do this, actually, just to spite you. Can we do a Dracula-themed terminal coffee partnership with your favorite CEO? We'll talk about it offline. That would be the best. I'm just like... It's the product. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's kind of like... I'm just tired of this playbook culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not the only start. There's a lot of startups doing similar like low... It's like not having your sights high. Like kind of aiming for... medium outcomes and like doing the whole startup thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
There's just like this whole thing played out and like your whole life just lives in this little community or this big community. It's like a huge amount of Florida, whatever. What's that? What's that called? Not the swamp.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And yeah, to me, I don't believe any like cloud wrapper companies and you have to like be intelligent enough about a company and know enough about a company to know whether they really are just like this third layer cloud wrapper. Um, Like PlanetSkill, not a cloud wrapper. They're an actual business. They build actually great technology and they happen to use cloud resources for that.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
But there's a difference. Like there's so many startups that got funded in this kind of like, I don't know why I say third layer. What's the first layer? I don't know. I'm considering like the public clouds, the second layer. I don't know what the first layer is. Just that's my terminology. Okay. It's the third layer. First layer is like electricity and atoms. I don't know. Whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. And then the second layer is where AWS comes in. Okay. And then the third layer is Resend and Vercel. Okay. I just don't believe in those companies. I just think they're all going to die.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. I haven't really been on the internet since we did the whole Laracon thing. Did everybody switch over to PHP? Is everyone writing Laravel now? Did we do our job?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Never mind. Arrows instead of dots? I'm out.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
just kidding we love php php so great buy artisan coffee terminal dot shop you know what i'd like to do someday i'd like to like get so good at an ad read that like it seems like it's just a pre-recorded ad read but i'm actually saying it exactly the same every time does that make sense that'd be fun like and then maybe throw in one little change like one little intonation yeah yeah just like it could have just automated this could have just recorded it and played the thing but instead i'm gonna say it every time oh let's take a break
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Hi, this is Totally Adam, the host of the podcast, reminding you in this sponsor read that is clearly not a pre-recorded bit that you should check out Terminal Coffee at terminal.shop. Amazingly awesome products for developers brought to you by a group of talented, good-looking, and humble heroes like Dax, Adam, The Primogen, Teej, and David.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
To order your next great coffee, please visit terminal.shop.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I'm sorry. I just remembered I used to do that sometimes. That's what you do on podcasts. We're going to take a break for the podcast. Why do people take breaks? Do they need a break? Do podcasts take breaks? Oh, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I just don't listen to podcasts, so I have no idea if what we're doing is... I can tell you they do things on podcasts that they don't actually do. Believe me, that's funny. No, they're always like, we're going to take a break. And then they just come right back. And I'm like, did they have to pee? Could they not have just cut that out? I don't know what the break is.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
No, this was South Florida. It was, I think it's somewhere between, like, Naples and Fort Myers. It was this ex-NFL player that, like, retired and built this community. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
A little hurt that you didn't notice I was in there, 50% of the streams. You were in there. Oh, right, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I just find an opportunity to just shield Tailwind every turn.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Sorry, that was double sarcasm. I don't know if everyone caught that. Or was it triple? It might have been triple. I'm not sure. Go ahead.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Is it just the competition? It's just there's so much more competition in JavaScript world because there's a framework every week.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
interesting that's interesting i'll find the name of it but it definitely had those vibes like uh like everybody's just like wearing the same thing and like hi neighbor like creepy kind of vibes but we considered it and it's like everyone has to build one of these like three different types of houses and you have to choose one of these builders my parents my parents house is one of those type situations it's like one of five models yeah that was very interesting
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I will say, I do think the like MVC MVVM, like if your framework still uses those paradigms, I just don't think people have the attention span in 2024 to like use that. You know what I mean? Like, The Phoenix app we had at StatMuse, this giant, giant Phoenix app, the number of files in that app just boggles the mind. I guess it's like our node modules.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's like insanely verbose amount of files and it's all the MVC stuff, I guess. And same, I saw people criticizing Laravel now that Laravel got a little more attention for the same. It's like, there's so many files. I can't wrap my head around all this. I guess JavaScript world, we've pared it down Uh, there's still too many files.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I mean, there's too many like stupid dot files in your root directory for like all the different tools, but well, you have to add those in. Yeah. You have to opt in people for that. Yeah. I blame people for all this stacks, but I do think like the NBC thing is just, it's too archaic feeling at this point. I don't know. Do you agree with that? Or do you think it's like good pattern?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
We've got an alternative. We don't do MVC.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
That's so reasonable, Dax. Why are you going to be so reasonable?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, I feel like you became too much of a character on the internet. You got to lay a little lower. You became a little too like people want to they want to say things to you in reply. People don't really care to say things in reply. Maybe because I just talk about like eating plants and jujitsu and stuff and they don't have anything to say.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
But I've laid low enough that I don't really get the angry replies. And if I do, I guess I don't notice because I'm not on Twitter.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
All right. I got to get off here. I'm sorry. I'm staring at. I've gotten distracted staring at the waiting for review on the app thing. And I have to make changes to the web thing because our thing uses the web. And if I don't make those changes, it's not really ready. Just go, go, go, you know? Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
oh because they have like nice equipment to like do mic speakers all that stuff wait are we just doing it on iphone though can we just record everything on iphone now is that what we decided well i'm getting my new iphone tomorrow i'm excited there you go we'll just record on your new iphone no no no no no cameras dslr the whole thing I don't know. We need to talk about it. Yeah, I'll talk.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Let's talk. You and your people will talk to me and my people. BeganBot will be my people and you and Liz are your people.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I hearted it or something. I did something, Dax.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I got to find that message. Was that in? Oh, it's in Slack. I forget. We're a Slack company now. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to say something in it right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Real things. I thumbs up and hearted it. Thank you very much. Okay. Thanks. It's been good. Thanks, Dax.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
There's more where that came from. More laughy faces and crying, laughing faces. I do those a lot.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, that you buy from a place that makes hats. That's right. You thought it was actually like a swag item or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's also in New York. So there's that downside. I mean, you have to live on Manhattan.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
What are the dates? What are the dates?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, I think so. I better double check with Casey. But I think it's clear. I can't miss a terminal gathering. I know. It's the ultimate FOMO. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
What have you been doing? What's been going on? What is happening on the internet?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, I've been reflecting. I think I do this every like six months. I think I have like a, yeah, I'm done with Twitter. I'm done with the internet. I guess normally I'm a little more high touch. Like even if I drop off of Twitter, like with you, we skipped the podcast last week. So literally submitted the stat news app to the store this morning and
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, usually. No, it's a company called Tintree. They plant tin trees for every item you buy. Oh, wow. Kind of cool. Kind of like the guy who, the Tom guy who gave away shoes to poor people every time he bought shoes. Oh, yeah. Probably for them, it's probably selfish. There's probably some corporate tax write-off or something. I don't know. But you feel warm and fuzzy when you do it, you know?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Uh, it was, it was like this, uh, crazy crescendo to like, I hit the button and then it was like, I'm sorry, you can't submit because you like track or something and you had to fill out this form and blah, blah, blah. It was like this big rejection. As soon as I hit the button, it was so anticlimactic. So then I had to spend an hour like doing a bunch of Apple paperwork, but then I submitted it.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So it's submitted. It feels good. They're going to reject it. Probably too many. I mean, probably no, honestly, too many web views. I don't know how people do this. So, Have we talked about mobile development on here much? No, you probably have. It's all probably fresh in your mind now. It's very fresh in my mind. It's such a, okay, so the dilemma for us, like we have this giant website, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And it's been 10 years of building this giant website with all kinds of stuff, like visualizations, it's sports statistics. So there's all kinds of different custom visualizations for different sports and like tons of just UI that we would never want to rebuild on a native app. using native stuff, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like we are the perfect case for using web views to have a native mobile app because people constantly ask us for a native mobile app. We want to say like, oh, the web, the mobile web experience is really good. Just use it on your phone. It's fine. Like for the kind of site we have, it's like, it's fine. It's like a Wikipedia style, like lots of links, clicking the pages, whatever. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, I don't know if this should stay in or not. I really don't. I'm sponsored by Tentree. No, I'm not. What is Tentree? It's a brand, a clothing brand.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
But people constantly badger us about having an app. Like every announcement we make, there's like five replies to the tweet that are like, we just want an app, bro. Like everybody wants a mobile app. So we're like, okay, fine. We'll build a mobile app, but it's mostly going to be the web experience. You're just going to have a little bit of native like navigation at the bottom.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And that's basically it. So it's all these web views. And I've talked to a few different like native development experts, if you will. And they've given me the green light that this is a case where, yeah, It probably makes sense. We're a small team. Like we're not going to have a mobile developer that just does mobile development. Probably makes sense to just use web views.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like I've gotten the sign off. I'm not just like spitting in the face of every mobile developer. So we have this case where it makes sense, but it's just terrible. It's such a terrible experience to build a native app using these web views.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
All the things you're used to doing in the web and sharing state and local storage and cookies and sessions, all of it is just like ass backwards and broken and you can't do anything you want to do. The amount of effort to build one little thing on the mobile app compared to the web is It's just insane.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And I don't know if it's just because of our use case we're trying to shoehorn a web experience into a native app. That's why we're having such a hard time. Maybe if you're building a purely native app and it's a totally different use case and it's not an existing property on the web, maybe it's not this bad. But it's bad. And the web view is like a community project. It's not like...
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
built into react native used to be i think but then they spun it off and it's this community thing the number of like quirky bugs for this being like oh it's cross-platform it works on android and ios the number of things that just don't work on android or don't work on ios and you can't use this flag on this but you can on this it's a mess okay soapbox soapbox over i'm done well my question is uh
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
What about those frameworks that are really more oriented around just web stuff? What are those frameworks? Are you going to say, like, Flutter and all these other words I've heard people say and I've ignored for five years?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. Why didn't you say this to me like two months ago, Dax? Three months ago. Why are we just now talking about this? This is not good. Then I'm realizing like, well, I asked some expert stacks and they said I could just use the web view in React Native. And then I realized I asked React Native experts. Should I use a web view in React Native? Yes.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And maybe if I would have asked, should I use React Native? They would have said no.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, we're not building from scratch. It's like literally hitting custom pages on our website that are kind of catered to this mobile experience.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So I'm going to look into it. I do see on their website how you can also build apps across iOS, Android, and the web. And React Native does that too. Why in the world would you build a web app using React Native?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And do they, like, throw them into the ground or something?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, there's reasons to do it? It was cool?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's one of those stealthy, you got an inside tip kind of things.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Really? Doesn't just hamstring the web development so much.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Okay. If you're building a thing, like, like what was the famous that was a Snapchat or Instagram that didn't even have like a web experience. It was just mobile for the longest time. They're like a huge billions of user mobile app.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So maybe that case where the web is just kind of an afterthought.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I guess I have seen this or I had a dream because I can, I can picture someone doing that. Like they're kind of like throwing a little sapling in like really fast.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I feel like a truck driver, like putting in an extra long haul today. Like the union's going to call about our hours. Like we got to take a break at some point.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. So this has been a week since they heard the last one and they have no context anymore. They're like, what are they even talking about? Just as a reminder.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I know you meant Tailwind there. You said CSS. It's okay.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, basically.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
So are there actually things Solid doesn't do very well with the local first or the zero framework approach? Is there something that React has advantages of? I'm struggling to even say a sentence. You know what I'm trying to get at?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And in the like the hanging out thing, I used to feel like, well, I'm really just here hanging out with everybody. But I feel like I do that elsewhere now. Like we've got Discord, we got Slack or whatever. I mean, I don't do that much either. But there is kind of like lots of other ways to stay connected with people I want to stay connected to. And I just I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That sounds really nice. You know how hard it is to Google for one JavaScript framework? And then I was like, oh, well, I'll search for zero. And then it's like everything is just zero JS, like bundle sizes and all this.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
One stack dot dev. Thank you. OneStack.dev. Is there a webpage for Xero?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Fourletter.com. I feel like... I feel like that's going to be expensive. At least six figures, right?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Is it, I'm going to say 2 million. So isn't that seven figures? That's seven figures. Yeah. I went higher.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And I'm like, that's not bad.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like that is like a really good domain. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
This is like going back to last episode, you know, all that time ago when we recorded last episode. When we talked about the, like, how does JK Rowling care at all if they sell more merch at this point? Like, how does Google, who at Google is like, ooh, we could sell this domain for $500,000. Google, trillion dollar, multi-trillion dollar, maybe? I don't know. Where are they at now?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like, who cares? At this point, why aren't they just like, here's the domain. What does it matter? I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's just hard for me to imagine. I work at Google.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I don't know if Twitter is it for me. Like the memes, nothing really hits the same. It's just not the same anymore.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, I know. I love that it's like a little round mark that they can use as their favicon. It's just one of those things that I think about when I make a website. It's like, what's the favicon going to be?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like one, like the word one. So NPM install one. That's impressive, right? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's not the Twitter change. I just changed.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
What leverage does he have? That's interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That's annoying. Is it against the rules to sell an NPM package?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
What would be a valid one?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But I hate name collision stuff. I hate it because it's the first thing I think of when I think of a new project, which, to my credit, haven't thought of a new thing in a long time. Can we step back? When was the last time I was like, I'm going to build this?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
a while your spirit is crushed oh no is it i feel like i have kind of like changed in some ways and i'm trying to figure out what it is uh i'm just like kind of cool with like my job and just like doing one thing whoa where did this come from i just to me my my feeling of it just seemed like you're really busy and i've just been occupying your energy yeah but like i'm busy with one thing that i've decided to make the one thing i'm busy with it's like
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Normally, even when I'm really busy with something, I still have ideas and the drive to build new things. I don't have that right now.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. I mean, I'm enjoying just working on my thing every day. And also, it's a season of life. With the stuff we've been going through as a family, it was based on school and all that. Maybe I just don't have a lot of extra... energy to want to put into something.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
As I'm reflecting, it's like it was like two years. I was on Twitter actively for like two. That's like really not very long. I got a Twitter account. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But like it feels like, wow, I can't believe I'm not really going to be active on Twitter. But like it's kind of a blip on the timeline when you think about it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I don't know. I feel like I've very rarely in my career just had like one thing I was working on. It's always been.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like it's, but what's weird to me, like it feels good, but it doesn't also like, hasn't really like registered, which is weird to me. Yeah. Feels like nothing. It's like, if I didn't notice, then does it really feel good or does it just not feel, maybe I'm just not feeling right now. Huh? did you know you always are feeling something? This is what Casey says.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I thought like, I'll let you know when I'm feeling something. Cause she's like, you don't really share much about your emotions. And I'm like, yeah, I don't really have any. I'll let you know if I have one. She's like, that's not how it works. You always have emotions. He's just about thinking about it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Any moment there's some, you have some emotional state, but maybe your emotion is just like, contentness or boredom or not worth registering. It's not like you always have extreme emotions. Do you think this is true? Maybe this isn't a fact.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I thought it was like your default state is like, it's kind of like when they used to think in physics that there was the void and then like there's places where there is stuff and there's places where there isn't like the void of space. And then they learned like, no, there's no such thing. I think I thought it was like the void. It's like the default is you're not feeling anything.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And then there's little moments of your day where you feel things. And that's the thing that was shattered for me.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And sometimes it like spikes or like, you know, it's very encouraging to me because it means at any given time I can work on thinking about what am I feeling right now? Like there is some feeling there to like archeological dig find.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. I don't think I have a lot of like emotional depth or like, I don't know. Variety.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Maybe. I'm just simple. I'm just a simple. Do you ever wonder what it'd be like to just be really simple, like really unintelligent? Would life just be so much better?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Describes you as very simple, a very silly boy and very simple.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But like you're intelligent. So simple in the way that like, I don't know, there's probably something profound about your being simple, but you're not like unintelligent.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. Now I want to know more about what she means by you being simple. But do you ever think like it'd be nice to just be really like unaware of all the things I'm aware of?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It just feels like it was longer. I don't know. Feels like I was. Yeah. I mean, I've had an account forever.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But you wouldn't know. There's a lot of simple people out there. They don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But I feel like I'd have a lot less anxiety. I feel like a lot of my anxieties are that I know too much.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, you're right. That's everything in life. I mean, high school, remember how long it felt like you were in high school. And when you think about four years now, like how minuscule that is in your whole life.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
money yeah same cars i've got you figured out yeah i'm just easily contented i think also easily contented interesting money in cars apparently yeah yeah the dream house in the dream neighborhood with the white tesla oh no you're a simple man
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you see how I got him confused a little bit?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I am kind of basic. It's interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I have one thing I want to bring up because I got on Twitter just to have something to talk about. I feel like I have nothing to say on this podcast if I don't check Twitter real quick. Looks like Next.js is really going for the look how easy it is to self-host. Next.js. They've got like a whole video series they're doing, I think.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, really? They've just had like a strategy. Can you just, oh, to be a fly on the wall. You know, they were in a little meeting and they're like, okay, let's try this. Let's try being really nice to everybody that's been jerks. And also let's try to do some videos. Let's make some content. Lee, could you head up making some content on how easy it is to self-host next?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Maybe we should make it easy too. I wonder if they said that in the meeting. Like maybe we should actually make it easy to self-host.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Interesting. Can I guess? I'm not going to guess. I know who it was.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm connected. I know people. I have a guess. Okay, it's the one person I know at Vercel. I'm not going to say. I doubt it. Can you message me the guess?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Let me just message. Okay, done. No, no, no. I wonder if anyone could tell what I typed.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
About the warm fuzzies between DAX and Vercel. I started to say SST and Vercel, but it's not. It's DAX and Vercel. Because SST never had a problem with Vercel.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, nice. Like, In good terms.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It was like, look at you guys. We're going to find something new to talk about. If you guys are all just like buddies now, we're not buddies. Well, I mean, that was too far, but not buddies. You're you're on good terms. You're really trying on good terms. Oh, okay. You just trying to spice neutral. Oh, sure. Yeah. Always. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I guess neither side can be too upset about the hostility that has ensued on Twitter because it's good for both sides. There's no such thing as bad attention or something. No, there is. No such thing as bad publicity. No, that's not true.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It is kind of crazy. I mean, the whole school thing, like just how much time now that I have a child in a school system, not at home homeschooling, like how much time is spent educating our kids? And then, like, ultimately, yeah, when you boil it down, you said math. Like, is that the main thing? Is it basically, like, just so they can understand some math?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That's good. That's what you really hated was the amount of, yeah, it's the only thing I really hated air that was sucked out of the room. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
posting yeah but i think it yeah it's just funny how it's ended up playing out well maybe that's why i'm not on twitter anymore maybe that was the only thing that was keeping me around is that kind of drama and the fun there's still drama that happens but you know yeah it just feel kind of played out played out uh i'm gonna see you in new york soon right is that this month no it's next month
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I got to book my airfare.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm sorry. No, I will.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm going to. Even my wife is telling me to book my flight because her mom's going to come into town while I'm gone, but she wants to wait until I book flights so she knows when to come in. And I don't even know what dates. I think Liz told me. Liz did such a good job of sending all the details and I have not done my part.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, really?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, nice. I mean, it is next month, to be fair. Like, I don't know if I've ever booked a flight a month in advance.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I think like three weeks is my, like, that's when I generally would be like, okay, if I don't do it now, tickets are going to get expensive.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
yeah where does everybody book flights these days since google shut down google flights oh google flights is not shut down okay don't do it really on this podcast do it oh okay i'll do it later i just started wondering like what the price is i remember yeah i remember i started to do this and i was like which airport isn't one of them's not closer to everything we're doing than the others it literally doesn't matter it literally doesn't matter into new jersey or new york and both are fine either airport in new york or newark in new jersey is fine
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Okay. Why did they do that? Why did they name a city right next to New York, Newark?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I think so.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Just think of the billions in lost productivity from that stupid name choice.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Newark. And that's. Yeah. Oh, my word. That reminds me. I want to get involved in local city government. Not like I want to run for office or something. I'm just considering. I'm considering going to a town hall or city hall meeting. We got this notice in the mail. Okay. I own property in a place where there are large men can own property. No, stop it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, okay. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, let's do that. I don't think I'm coming back to Twitter. And it's not like I'm going to Mastodon. I'm not those people. I just literally haven't cared about Twitter for months now. And I don't think it's going to come back. I don't think I'm going to regain that feeling. I mean, I used to be addicted to checking Twitter multiple times a day.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
There are, like, large chunks of agricultural land around my neighborhood because it's in the middle of nowhere. I like that. In fact, two of these chunks are my, like, kitchen window view and then, like, the other side of our house.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Is there anything else we really hope kids... You gotta learn to read and write, for sure. Read and write. I mean, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, that's the... Okay, so this is a trope that, like... When you're in your upper 30s and you own a home on a lot in a neighborhood, you're like, don't build any more houses. I like my view because that's how I feel right now.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Well, there's two big chunks of like 30 and 40 acre land that are agricultural right now. And they're trying to develop on them. Well, one of them they are developing. They just started cutting down trees. And the view out our kitchen window is completely different. It's just like sky now. And it was all trees. It's so sad. It's like all these...
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
hundred-year-old oaks, just giant trees, this huge forest, and they're just cutting it all down. And I'm so upset. And I'm like, oh, those trees, they're not going to be there. I thought they would be there forever. And then it's like, well, I guess I live in a neighborhood where they did that just 20 years earlier. So it's like...
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I can't be mad that they're going to put more houses in a place where they put houses so I can live here. I can be mad.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
My son reads books like a machine. He's read all the first, we like limited to the first three Harry Potters, I think age wise, because we read some guides that were like, don't read the fourth one until they're whatever years old. He's read them all at least three times. The third one's the scariest. The Prisoner Azkaban. Is that black, serious black?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
So you're saying it's okay to be a NIMBY.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. And we're able to go to this town, this meeting and like vote on whether they can plot this other chunk of land as residential. It's this developer that wants to build a whole neighborhood. They want to like use our little private neighborhood road. It's not private. It's actually a public road. But like right now we live in a neighborhood where there's no through traffic.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
The road that comes in, it's a city street.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's going to change. The street right now just goes into our neighborhood. There's no reason anyone else would be on the street, but they want to like plug it in and it'll be like, we get traffic from all over the place. It's just like stuff I don't want to happen. So I'm going to maybe go to the meeting and be like, listen, I would like this to not happen.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I don't know what grounds I have to stand on. Like, just don't do it, please. Cause it'll make me sad. Like, what can I say?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I thought I was about to get real advice. And then you just, you went there. Maybe you could come and wear a bomb. It'd be a little more realistic. I don't know. You're, you're brown. Sorry. That was so racist. I got to not say things like that. Okay. Chris, I'll let you decide my fate. You might cut that out. I'm sorry. You say you're brown all the time.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm going to pay for it for sure. I mean, if it were like 2002, you know, right after 9-11, like... maybe it would have been worse. Is it worse later?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm getting a cramp, like a muscle cramp. And I wonder if it's like anxiety over getting canceled. I can just feel it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Actually, I will get no consequence. I will have no consequences. It's the tree in the forest thing. Speaking of trees and forest, what do I say? Like if I go to like, literally, I want to go to this meeting. I'm an adult. I'm trying to learn how to be like an adult. You know what I mean? Like adults who are like, I'm going to the city hall meeting. What do you say?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
What could I actually say that would be like, not just, I think the trees are pretty and I don't want them to go away.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
So then he's basically being like, you're killing people. Are you okay? If you're cool killing people, then yeah, go ahead and tear down the bridge.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Wait, wait, wait. One of the most pleasant places in New York in the world? I don't understand that sentence.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Is that the serious black one? Because he ends up being like a good guy and I feel like that makes it less scary. Well, spoiler alert.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
So I don't feel like I have as much of an argument. Like in my case, there's not like, yeah, it's really tough. It's literally just the view. And there is like a lot of wildlife. So all these woods that they're going to get rid of, we used to have deer all over the place. And I feel like there's nowhere for them to be now.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like they would go between those woods and like the wooded areas between our homes and And I feel like when all that's gone, it's like habitat destruction.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, just lie about it. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Play dirty.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just flash a little meter of some sort that I'm holding. It's gone up to 26 parts per million, okay? Listen, this used to be 24.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
For all the nine-year-olds that listen to us.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
You're the people that make a scene. You end up on YouTube because somebody records it. But you get your way, maybe.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, I can't do that. I don't like conflict.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, no. Okay. Yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'll try the bomb thing. We'll try that.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Well, it's the Ozarks, so...
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Maybe, yeah, I don't know. Like per house, right? I'm assuming. They'll probably make more than anyone selling a domain to Google will, but probably not as much as, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Maybe not. I don't know. He's read them all like at least three times.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, just, like, looking into your windows.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I mean, yeah, you should probably not do that anyway, but, yeah. No, I don't care about that.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I don't... Okay, I've never read the books. I got to come out. I've only watched the movies. When you said Dementor's Kiss, I don't even know what that is.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. It's also just kind of like sounds fun. I mean, like a reason to have a BB gun and to use it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Wow. That sounds kind of fun too. Like just, I mean, not killing animals. I'm a vegan, but like the idea of like the target practice of it, like,
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I want to go paintballing. Can we organize a paintballing thing? Because that just sounds so fun. Like first person paintball. Can we do like a stream? And we film it all? And where we all have cameras. Have we talked about this? I feel like we've talked about this.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It was a great idea. Come to the Ozarks. We'll do a paintball, like a JavaScript paintball war and get all the framework authors. But we all have like GoPros and you can see like our gun. So it looks like Goldeneye, like first person video game. And we're paintballing each other. Let's do it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
You're trying to get jobs acting in a commercial or something, and then on the weekends, you're like, I'm going to go be a zombie. I'm going to put my all into it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Let's do it. Okay. I got to pee. We just got to be done. Cause I got to pee. It just happens. I'm sorry. Bingo. Somebody just got bingo. All right. See ya. See ya.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, I get it. You read, Dax. You're very well read. It's very impressive.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That JK Rowling, she knew what she was doing. The writing thing though. So my son, big reader, reads a lot, cannot stand writing. He hates it. Like he hates physically writing things out. And he's kind of like perfectionist about it. And like in school, he has to like get a little extra help with writing. And it's like, for what? What are we doing here?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That is not a skill you're going to need in life. If you can spell and type, why learn to write? I don't write with my hands ever.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
There's a good amount of time you have to learn some stuff every day at school. Writing maybe makes the top whatever five, top five. So it's like might as well do it. It's not that we're trying to kill time. I actually have a newfound respect. I got to go back to an old episode where I was like, public school's dumb. Anybody putting their kid in public school is terrible and blah, blah, blah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I said a bunch of harsh things and I shouldn't have said those things. Now that I have a kid in school, I have a newfound perspective. He loves going to school. He loves the structure. Our family loves the schedule. As much as we thought it'd be hard to have a 30-minute commute to school and two trips a day to Springfield, it just felt like this could be a lot. Everybody loves it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's this whole part of the day, and it brings this structure, this schedule to our day that we didn't have. So he says school is a nine and nine hundred and ninety nine thousandths out of ten. Like he's been team school ever since we put him in school. Yeah. So I have this newfound respect for like, it's OK that he spends a lot of hours out of the home and that he's thriving in that environment.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But then I think like they don't really need that much time to learn what's probably important that they learn, right? I still feel like there's a lot of fluff in a school schedule, and that's okay. But when we boil it down, at the end of his schooling, what do we really care about? I don't care if he memorizes all the world's wars and the battles.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
There's stuff that we learned growing up that's like, why? I can Google anything I need to know on that front. If it's facts and trivia, I just don't need... my kids learning that stuff. So what is important? We've had this conversation a lot in my life. Like, what is important? We care about him learning math. That seems important. Yeah, I don't know. It's only a few things.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
We want him to be curious. We want him to like, maybe this is like the modern stereotypical parent answer. We want him to like pursue his own interests and have that kind of like agency in life. That's what we hope he gets out of schooling. And I think this school is pretty good. I think like he's going to get some of that. I don't know. Do you have thoughts on that? Is there a vacuum cleaner?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
What's going on in your house right now? Zuko, like, destroying things?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
united states citizen like you would probably come up with more abstract things to spend time on okay so there's a bit of like just preparing you for society to like be a member of this society there's certain contexts and cultural things that you could get out of school that aren't just like what is the most optimal education yeah yeah like it's uh i mean i i bring up avatar a lot but like there's a lot of stuff in that show that i think is like critical to the
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's funny. When you said Avatar, you talk about it a lot. I don't remember you ever talking about it. That doesn't mean you never talked about it. I just don't remember. So what is Avatar? I thought we talked about it a lot. Wait, Mindbender? What's it called?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And now I go days without looking at it. And I don't even think about it. When I do open Twitter... I scroll for like 30 seconds and I'm like, there's nothing here I care to see. And that's no offense to you or anybody else on Twitter. But it's just the same stuff that like, I'm not even drawn to like technical discussion anymore or like dev stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Airbender.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, okay. I didn't remember that it was Avatar. I'm thinking like James Cameron, Big Blue People. That's what, when you said Avatar, that's what I thought.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. Okay. I'll stop dismissing things. That's my nature, is to just dismiss whole categories of things. History, social studies, don't need it. Get out of here.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Are you kidding me?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm sorry. Back up.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's built on top of zero. What was zero? And is it void zero related? Replicash is a new thing. Oh, Replicash. Right. Okay. Yeah. Which I've been playing with. No relation to void zero.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Okay. Or v0.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Or v0. Oh, geez. That's another one. What is that? Is that a Vercel thing? That's the product?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. Is that like a big better? We got to circle back to that. Not yet. So one is a new JavaScript framework built on top of Zero. So it's actually good. Replicash, zero, good. Yeah. This new framework also built by the Replicash people or someone else?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
There's just nothing that could be said on Twitter that I'd be like excited to open the app for.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Okay. All the way down to styling.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Or not care. It's hard for me to be excited about these ideas having spent the last few months in this world. I hate this world so much.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. Like AppSync, but good. Sorry.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I love the ideas that this brings into, like, I love the idea of not having to build like individual end points for my API and to just have this thing that I can build on top of kind of front end first local first, whatever it's called. I don't know. I love the idea.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
this is not what we're getting into yeah this is not podcast content chris cut this out you know what i mean
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
You feel like such an asshole, but it was amazing. They walk you right up in front of everybody and like hand you off. But now it's like the clear line is as long as the TSA preline. And it's kind of funny, like business models like that, where like it's only good until you're really successful and then nobody gets anything out of it.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
It should just be an auction and, like, you bid to get to the front of the line. Like, what's the highest bid right now? We got $156, this asshole from New York. I keep cursing. Ever since I said I don't sound normal cursing, I just keep trying.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
There are things in that vein, not specifically clear. Uh, but I definitely have that growing sense of dread that having money will bite us all. Eventually, uh, the trajectory we're on, I don't know. Some guy was murdered in the street in New York. I'm not some guy, a CEO, a person with money. that happened. And I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
So do you think, so could you spell it out for me in this case? What's the feedback or who's the feedback to, to CEOs? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Hmm. Do you think there's like a... What's the word I'm looking for? Is this a thing that could catch wildfire? Is it contagious?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
So maybe this is a dramatic leap, but how did the French Revolution happen? I don't know anything about history. Is it that kind of vibe where it's like... It's about wealth disparity. It's about the conditions of healthcare in America. And eventually, just the lower takeover, the upper through violence. Is that kind of what happened?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yes. So do you think, but you don't think that there's a tipping point that could happen in America where we do resort to, I mean, there's so many mitigating factors or just the reality that like quality of life, I guess the riots, I mean, there's been a lot of rioting in the last three or four years. Right. Five, 10 years. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
My context is all thrown off, but I know there was an era where it was really common. Maybe it was the last election cycle.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
That makes sense. It's basic psychology from like an individual household standpoint. Like if you're doing okay. And that's the question, I guess. Does anyone keep track? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
of the average or like the number of people who would say i'm not doing okay and i am kind of done with it and i am willing to because you hear those kind of things on the internet that like things are bad but like for how many people and what is that point where is this a stupid question is this a dumb conversation is there nothing to be said about this
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yeah. It's that rational optimist book. It's like, as much as people want to complain about things that aren't great, they're so much better than they were.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yeah, so there was another, there's kind of a tangential thing that I forgot about, which was like all the murmuring of like this election cycle, like we're ready for civil war. This is going to happen. I haven't seen any militia people walking down the streets. It didn't happen, I guess. No civil war. We're free.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
And then when there are isolated incidents, it's because enough people were fantasizing and walking around and it escalated. They were all in their military garb and then eventually somebody provoked somebody enough. Because there are things that happen, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Okay, I want to break this down. Because this is the thing I've said about myself. And... I've hoped in the last few months as I've tried to work on myself through my marriage situation and all that, I've hoped that maybe it is possible I could be, I could have some semblance of romance in my life. I've always said I have no romantic bone in my body. Like that's just not a thing I have.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Is that a personality trait? What do you know about romance? Tell me, Dax. Look into my eyes and tell me.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Is it a thing you can learn or grow into or is it just part of your kind of like identity?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
a situation that's exciting do you like really lean into depicting it in like the most dramatic extreme way possible i don't think so i don't uh i'm really bad at hypotheticals or like remembering anything in my life so this is gonna be a struggle okay so i guess you know better than than i do about my personality you've seen me on twitch or something i don't know
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I'm not talking about... But like real startups that I've started, I feel like I could just go to that real data and say that I've never once thought about taking down an incumbent. And there probably are incumbents.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
It's not like my wife needs it. She knows this about me. She's always known this about me. It's just kind of like a thing in life I thought I wasn't able to have. And maybe I could have it. Maybe it adds a layer to life that would be nice. That's the thought. Not that I have to have it. It's just I always thought it was off limits. It just wasn't part of my personality or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
And then I just started wondering maybe part of my personality is broken and I need to fix it. And I'll have some things I didn't think I could have after I fix it. It's so hard to know. I struggle. I think about this all the time. I don't think about very many things a lot. But I think about personality.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
What is my personality and what is just the parts of me that are super fucked up because of my past or whatever. Trauma, whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yeah, because I'd love if she could tell us. Could you just yell, Liz, come in here. Come here. Because I'd love to bring up this person's name. I just love when we talk about stuff on the podcast and I get like five DMs and it's like, hey, if you like him, you should check out this guy. It's amazing. Thank you for all the things you guys send me, like movie recommendations. Can you check Slack?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
You guys are hilarious. Honey, check Slack. That's funny. Wait, do you just call Liz Liz? Do you have any pet names for each other?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
It's just I don't need anyone ever. I just never say anyone's name.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
we do it's okay i have gone through a few and as part of our separation and reuniting we've decided to come up with new ones new era new pet names it's always hard because you keep calling them the old one it's hard to force it too it's better yeah i'm trying a few actually and we'll see which one sticks Is she checking Slack? I'm going to get up and I'm going to go back.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
She's not behind you taking photos? Behind the scenes?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
South Korean. Just have Liz do it on Slack. Hey, Liz, check Slack.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Can you give me just a brief synopsis of what I'm going to find?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
So if we were all just trying to find food to live another day, we wouldn't probably be thinking about whether we're bipolar. I mean, maybe that's a specific example. We wouldn't be trying to figure out if, I don't know, whatever we just were talking about, if I'm a romantic or not. Like, I'm just trying to live.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
It makes sense through the lens. Like if I look at the pipeline of like young professionals that get to a place where they're doing pretty good, their standard of living is above average. And then they start listening to Huberman and taking ice baths. You know what I mean? To get pretty specific. There's also like... I thought about this the other day. This is... I'm jumping all over the place.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
But there's a software dev kind of pipeline where software developers get paid really well. You work for like a decade and you're probably doing pretty well if you've been working in the US in particular. And then you start getting on YouTube and making YouTube videos. And then you start...
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
a coffee company or whatever like there's like a pipeline of software dev to senior software dev to buys a camera and it's like undefeated hence the podcast that we are talking about yeah it's just not that deep of a field i guess uh yeah but yeah so i mean he talks about like he goes across
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
So I totally resonate with all that. I'm excited to dig into this guy's stuff. The one question I have just off the top is, and I don't know how to say this without sounding... Well, I'm just going to say it. Casey, if you're listening, I'm sorry. If I didn't have a relationship, if I was alone in the world, I don't think I'd think about myself one bit. I would just be coasting.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
And I think everything would be really easy. At the same time, I'd probably live a pretty shallow existence for other reasons, related reasons. Just my personality is such that I would get obsessed with my work or something and just be obsessed with that thing until I died.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Because I'm in a relationship, that's where I feel like I really am digging into all these other things, trying to figure out how to make the relationship better to give this other person what they need in the relationship. That's where all my self-introspection comes. It's like, I want to be the person that is worthy of this relationship that she is getting what she needs out of it.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Otherwise, and the main problem that she has in our relationship is that I don't think about these things at all. That's why I'm trying to think about them so hard. Does that make sense?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Is there, is in his stuff, is there an antidote besides just stop, stop doing it?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
So that's what the deal with the refresh token is. It's always just in my mind been like, Okay, but like you just moved it to a different field called refresh token.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Does Liz have my problem? Does she look at herself and her stuff unlike you?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I have so many thoughts. My brain just went to like four different things at once, and I don't know if I want to say any of them. I tried coming back to Twitter.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I don't know if it's good for me. I just don't know if it's good for me. I'm on the fence.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
All my tweets are just me being really annoyed about something I just saw on Twitter and responding to it. That's basically fine.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Except the part where it's a reflection that like, wait, why do I get on a thing that I'm just annoyed every time I get off? Yeah, that's fair. Well, maybe if I just cut that part out. Yeah. If I had a ride only Twitter client where I could just dump my random thoughts, that'd be kind of fun. Why has somebody made this? Has anyone made this?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
So I would like that plus a white list of the people I want to see their tweets.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
The following tab is bad because I'm following people that I'm quote unquote friends with.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
not actually like i want to follow these people just unfollow them adam it would be so hard and painful but hmm then i just i hate when i get on twitter when i look at somebody's profile and they follow like 26 people i'm like you jerk just socialize i don't think that at all ever really okay i'm gonna open my app right now and just randomly unfollow 10 people that's what i'm gonna do
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Every time you unfollow someone, you are literally slapping them in the face. That's what I think.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I can absolve myself of the guilt and shame and feeling like I hurt people's feelings. It's dumb. I should just... Yeah. If I just followed like 30 people... and I could just read your tweets, that would be good. But there'd be so much stress around, well, there'd be so much stress around deciding who gets to be in my feed.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I don't even know who I follow anymore. Yeah. Okay. Because I tried the following tab for a bit and it just gets so dominated. If somebody wakes up and they're sitting on the toilet and they post like 25 times. Yeah, that's me. And then it's like, well, the following tab is just Dax this morning. So that's what I get on the following tab. Okay, fine.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I got to figure it out because I do think there's something to like, it's the only place I interact with most of my friends. So I don't want to just not be on the platform, but I don't want to just be annoyed all the time because I'm seeing the news of the day and people being dumb. In my opinion, they're not being dumb. They're just doing something I don't like, but I do stuff they don't like.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Really? I feel like my feed turned and maybe it's, I might be on the for you tab, but I feel like it just turned into like, Any post that has over like a thousand likes just shows up on my feed.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Oh, you just follow. You just look at your following tab. Is that what you know? I don't.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Do you do you feel like you get annoyed on Twitter? Yeah, surely you do. Yeah, of course. When you're better than everybody, you must get even more annoyed.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
You know, just don't tweet. Nobody, nobody replies when you don't tweet or when you tweet the dumbest stuff in the world. No one replies to that either. Vouch. Okay. Anyway, I don't want to talk about Twitter anymore. Let's talk about something else.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Good. I'm surprised actually that I was able to let my hair down and have this podcast episode go because everything is splayed out on the operating table and I'm trying to finish it today before the weekend. It's a gigantic effort. Turns out our API, pretty bad. We want to make it public. Well, it's pretty bad. We don't want to do that right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
But okay, let's talk API design real quick because maybe somebody will DM me and I'll get some useful stuff here about you should do this. Just don't say JSON API, please. Here's the thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
It's actually so hard to have a consistent API that has a nice open API document and all the responses match the responses in the document. Because you have this layer of tools, we have four or five different tools at play and like, well, that one turns out it's got a middleware that just randomly intercepts certain errors and responds in certain ways and they don't match our open API spec.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
It's like that kind of stuff. But then also, oh man, it's so many things. All these tools have varying degrees of support for each other. So you kind of build up a little stack to try and get your docs stack going. And a lot of people use these same tools, Mintlify. which I think we're going to use for our Doxy website.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
It's just not working with the OpenAPI spec generated from this one tool that we use, but it was working with the previous tool. And then it's like, do we go back to the previous tool? And then I'm like, all the time I've spent trying to get automated OpenAPI generation, I could have just written an OpenAPI doc, probably. I don't like writing YAML or JSON, but...
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
at the end of the day, maybe our API doesn't need to change much and this is all just wasted time. I feel like I've spent a week.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, the drift would be really painful and annoying. And I don't know. Yeah, you want to explain? You want to give people context that we're going to have an API where you can order coffee?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
which is going to be... Twitch chat's going to run with this. There's going to be so many just like degenerate ways that they integrate this into things. I'm so excited to see.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yeah. So you'll be able to generate a personal access token and just order your coffee all over the place. Make a cron job.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
So we started with SSH. Next, the world. Basically everywhere. There's going to be coffee ordering in every corner of the internet.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Ironically, for the memes, can we raise a round? Can we just raise a ton of money so we can do the stupidest stuff ever?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Is there any VC that wants to do that kind of thing? That's really not a bad idea. A joke of a company? We're not a joke. I mean, we're a real company. We actually make money. That's what's funny. It's like the most real company I've ever been involved in. It's just like a business. We have to do taxes probably this year, our first year.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Really? This is hilarious. So we can be a billion dollar company?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I'm sure there's a way to do it. There's got to be a way to do this for the memes. That is so good. That would be so funny to have an actual 409A and be a billion dollar company.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I would love that a whole lot. Oh, man. And even if it does screw us, we could just say we're never going to race because we shot ourselves in the foot. It's like we ripped the parachute off. It's like, no, we're doing this.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yes, a TechCrunch article. Oh, my goodness. It's so good. All right. I do need to get back. I keep staring at the code on my computer and it's Friday and I got to get this done.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Well, the question is how much my merge conflicts are going to take up of my day. How bad is it?
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Nice. I haven't touched the infra since you did. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Okay. Well, then maybe I do get this done today. Just maybe. I figured out the stainless stuff, by the way. Should I not say that on the podcast? I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
They're in there and they're very excited. Cool. I'll hop in there. I do have a question still, but I figured out the issue. So one question about their model. I can ask in Slack. Never mind.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Well, the repos, there's so many repos. And they pushed a change to update their spec because they changed something. They have a new way of defining your whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yeah, but they updated it in that repo. That's not in our thing where our Stainless YAML is. So when I made changes to our Stainless YAML, I just jumped all over their changes and erased the new thing and it erased our SDKs. But I fixed it. I found the history and got it all working.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
That's not fun. I'm seeing your point of view on all that so much more clearly. I have this thing where if someone wants to take charge and set rules and be authoritative, I will follow. And I get tossed around a lot because, I don't know, they sounded like they knew what they were talking about. And they said, we should do this. We should name our branches. instead of master.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I saw that in the GitHub repo the other day where it was renamed. It was some big flag that this was renamed. And I just remember that whole era. And it's like, wow, that was a lot of toil. And does anyone really care? I don't know. Maybe they do. But it just feels like... Yeah. There's a group of people that just really want to look like they care is how I would describe it.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
That's so funny. I just saw a video this morning. Well, maybe everyone in the world did because I think Elon retweeted it. Does Elon's tweets just show up on everybody's timeline? I don't know if I follow him. Okay. Well, I need to do that because he tweets a lot. But he retweeted this video about recycling, and I don't know who the source of this video is.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I didn't realize how fake recycling is. I'm a diligent recycler. I didn't realize I was doing it just to feel good about myself, but I guess I was. And apparently, you can't recycle plastic. Like, basically, not possible. Yeah. I mean, it just doesn't, or at least not practical.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yeah. And environmental costs. It's kind of ironic, like some of the details around it. And again, there could be counterpoints. Maybe there are things that are good to recycle. I don't know. A lot of it just shipped to other countries too.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Did you know they just dump plastic in the ocean? I didn't know that. I thought it was like accidentally. What? What's that? No, like people, other countries just literally like every minute a truckload of plastic is dumped into the ocean.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I don't know. The part of the video is talking about how we ship all this plastic to other countries and then those countries in turn either burn it or dump it in the ocean, which is both bad, both bad things to do, I guess. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
The plastic thing is interesting, too, because I listened to a big thing about microplastics. And it's like, basically, it's everywhere. Everywhere we've ever looked, there's microplastic. It's everywhere. And there's no escaping it at this point. We're just kind of all filled with and covered in microplastics. TBD, if that matters. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
But basically, all the uproar about plastic is just kind of like, it's too late. There's plastic.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I don't know. I have to question all of my motives, why I say or think things like plastic is bad after learning that you can't even recycle plastic. I don't know. It's like, I do think there's something about, I try to avoid like when we buy toys for the kids, we try to buy stuff that lasts longer. I think the plastic era just kind of sucks.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Legos, it's true. They're plastic and they're great.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
I was thinking about, I just had a thought this morning about plastic, about building a giant keyboard, like maybe the world's largest. I wonder if we could get like a key cap manufacturer like GMK to like be excited about molding giant.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Yeah. And I thought how much plastic, how much ABS or whatever plastic would it take? Sorry. To create like key caps as big as a chair. Like that would be a lot of plastic. And then I just went down a whole trail of like, how could you even type on that keyboard? Well, if everyone was standing on a key and you had little like headphones where it beeped when they need to jump, you could type.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Oh, okay. There we go. Just like an entire forest cut down probably. But like, I guess that happens every minute anyway. It's renewable. That's right.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Oh, the world's so complicated. I don't know how to feel. Tell me how to feel the X. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Well, I was just thinking as I thought through that example too. And can I say it before you do? Because then it'll just sound like a copy of you because you're smart. Well, the... It has to get some things like literally metal detectors. Everybody has to go through a metal detector. They scan the bags. I'm sure they miss stuff, but it can't be a zero ad kind of thing. That was my thought.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Of course it is. I should have left my dumb thought in my brain. So it couldn't be ridiculed.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Like they won't try because they know they definitely see and it's too scary.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
from happening so just the littlest barrier can be like a huge barrier basically there's a principle around that or something right on the it's the window or yeah yeah i don't know
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
Okay. If it's a, yeah, I just, I started realizing like, I think I liked TSA. I would feel pretty bad. Is it security theater? If I would really feel pretty bad if it didn't exist and I just got on a plane with everybody else off the street.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
That's what I mean. You don't like traveling is what I really meant. Like you don't like to leave your home.
How About Tomorrow?
Open Source Security Theater
The security thing is so funny. At one point, I was flying a lot, like three, four times a week, just for like a few months. It was a fundraising era. And I got the clear thing at the beginning of the stretch.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I think the reality is historically there was no possibility for any kind of wealth unless you were a port owner. and you could tap into trade. So every major city is just on the water. And now there's like a side effect of that is you're exposed to any kind of water, natural disaster.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
what major city is wealthy and like technically chicago but isn't chicago port yeah yeah i mean the great lakes are like i don't know but like didn't they use that to trade with like i don't know i'm gonna make some shit up no yeah from canada maple syrup i don't know where like everybody was like stopping around in the canadian woods like trapping yeah raccoons and shit like oh it's funny
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Like, what's the point? Yeah. And even things like Philadelphia, like, it's on the river, so they could trade up and down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. I guess that makes sense. That said, humans, I've always felt... The thing you were saying, like, why did we establish a thing there? I feel this way about the whole Earth in general. Like...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Well, they established a new company called Void Zero, and their goal is to make a unified JavaScript tool chain.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
if you look at the whole earth there's clearly places that are way nicer to live where the food's more abundant why are a bunch of humans in the middle of the desert like how did why is canada populated at all why are there people in canada i don't understand we're just like we'll live anywhere and we'll just make it work or not people aren't just like it's true yeah yeah i mean some people just want their space i guess like
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Even then, like, it's crazy to me that like, there's so many of these crazy cities in the middle East. Oh, I guess there's oil there now, which is what, um, oil built those, those cities, but, but even historically, right? Like, I mean, all the ancient cities, isn't like the original, like Mesopotamia is not like, actually, no, that was on a river. So that makes sense. Um,
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But yeah, I just feel like there's like the desert case, but then there's also like the really cold, like Scandinavian, like Northern area. Why did you guys go all the way up there? What were you following?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Which I think if puts them in the same category as Bunn, more or less, I think that's almost... Near overlap. Like computing. Minus the runtime. Bun? I think Bun is a superset in a lot of ways. I think Bun would consider, even if they're not focusing on the same things right now, I think Bun would consider everything Void Zero is doing as something they eventually want to do.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, I think it's challenging. But your wife is a little older than five.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I've met a lot of people recently that are super into board games.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
And I want to get more into it. I actually have one here that I borrowed that I need to play.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
They're all bad. That's what's so crazy. Like, I don't know why I never put this together. It's like all the ones that we know of, like even Risk. Like, Risk is fun, but... It's not like someone like tried really, really hard to come up with like the coolest thing ever. And there's like a whole world of that, of people that have tried that hard.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Like they figured out how to make really good board games. Yeah. Like there's board games that take like an hour to set up and you play over several days and you need to like leave it. It's crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I've never finished a game of Monopoly. You have it more fun. Yeah. Monopoly, I feel like... Literally, I think it's actually a very bad game. And the only thing it has going for it is like the money feels so cool and fun. And I think that's the only reason anyone is ever like, oh, let's get Monopoly or let's play Monopoly. But the game actually driven by.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I think McDonald's might have played Monopoly. Paid Monopoly.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But who has... Like, Monopoly's not going to move more. That's what I'm saying.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
That's true, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I don't think Void Zero is going to build a JavaScript runtime. I think that's outside their scope.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Oh, that's a good question.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Hasbro has owned the rights to Monopoly since 91 when it acquired Parker Brothers, the maker of the game.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I just saw a picture of the Monopoly board and just like it just brought back the crazy nostalgia. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Oh, is it like a mix of?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It must be like a rev share, though.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Do they need more exposure? No, no. I think it's just ways to sell more. Like if I own Harry Potter, the brand, I'm just going to like partner with every single product maker to slap my shit on it.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. It must just be like the Disney machine.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I'm pretty sure Disney is like their publisher or like the equivalent. Because like... Oh, jeez. So complicated. Oh, is it Universal?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
They've both raised money. I went on Prime Stream a bit to talk about this a bit because I'll just give you the spiel real quick. So with a lot of these projects, these open source projects that are very free and fundamentally need to be open source and free, the question of what's the business model always comes up. And that's a valid question. But the point I made was
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Because Universal Studios... Because they have the... It's Universal. It's not a... Yeah. Which makes sense because that's what did the movies. Yeah. I think so. So they are remaking Harry Potter as an HBO TV show. And... We're old enough to remake Harry Potter? I really don't see how this is a good idea because the original Harry Potter movies... Yes, different actors. Oh, no, don't do this.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
The original Harry Potter movies were very good. You can watch them today and they don't feel outdated. Still good. They can show them to someone new and they don't feel outdated. Uh-huh. And I feel like this can really only be worse. And it's the same story. And I don't want to, we've all seen this story like a billion times already.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I mean, I've been thinking about this a bit. And I've seen some people in Hollywood talk about it. And it's so funny. It's like the same thing that happens in business, which is... eventually organizations just become crazy risk averse to an irrational degree, right? So if I'm someone that's going to produce, I work at a movie studio, I'm going to produce a movie.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
If it fails, that looks really bad on me. But if I attach it to some existing IP, nobody could say that it was a bad decision. Cause like there's like a safety, there's like a perceived safety net of like, well, I wasn't taking some crazy risk. I was just like betting on a sure thing, you know?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So there's been so many cases that I've heard of where there will be a script, brand new concept, new script. They will take the script and attach it randomly to some existing thing, just so it feels like more de-risked.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
There's something. Yeah. I mean, I feel this comes up. This comes up a lot. Yeah, it's super annoying. And I feel like this is happening. Like you brought up football. I feel like it's happening everywhere where we're just in this like weird phase of... It's like really short-term minded. And you would think that looks like craziness, but it actually looks very boring.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, the thing with Hollywood is like turning out sequels and stuff. There has to be some like corrective...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Oh, no. So they're like they're like headline thing is like the Avengers movies. Right. And that series ended with like all the famous actors in the last 10 years, like their stories ending and like their contracts basically. So that's what they're kind of struggling now. But they're making the next series of Avenger movies. And the main bad guy in it who's playing it, Robert Downey Jr.,
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I don't know if we talked about this already, but these are venture scale companies, very different than a traditional company. The example I gave was if search engines didn't exist and someone invented a search engine today, people would ask what's the business model. And the company would be like, Oh yeah, we'll give you like 10 free searches a day.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
They just brought him back as a different character.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's unclear. It could be in a different dimension, like Tony Stark went bad, or it could just be he's a totally different person. Oh my goodness. At some Comic-Con, a bunch of these masked... People showed up on stage and the one guy in the front removed his mask and it was Robert Downey Jr. And everyone went nuts.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
And I'm like, yeah, like this is like another flavor of this rebooting thing where they're rebooting the actor, you know?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
and forever yeah we've really struggled to um there is still some good stuff and even within the zone of like they're just like doing the ip thing um have you seen the last of us no
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
The Last of Us was a really good video game. Narratively, it was one of the best narratives in any video game ever. And they made two games. And HBO made a TV show. They did one season of the first game, and now the second season is about to come out, I think, at the beginning of next year. Phenomenally good. Really, really good.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's a classic post-apocalyptic thing. Some kind of... In this case, it wasn't a virus. It was like a fungus. And it destroyed society. There's some people that are surviving. And if you get even scratched or something, you turn into this crazy zombie thing. And there's this girl that got scratched. So everyone's like, you're fucked. And they usually just kill them right away.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But for a reason, they didn't kill her. And she started to recover. So the story is... This really reluctant guy who's like kind of like he lost his own daughter like way at the beginning, right when everything was going down in a really crazy way. And he's like reluctantly agreeing to take this girl to some research facility like across the country.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So they travel across the country and it's like some of the most intense. like hard to watch situations that they like run into. And the acting is amazing. Like everything is done really, really well. Yeah. And that's technically just like this IP juffling thing, but they did a really good job with it.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. I think the production quality of TVs have gone up. TVs, TV shows have gone up a lot.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
And then if you want to go over that, we'll charge you $10 a month. Right. Um, and you would probably make a lot of money doing that, especially if it's as good as Google is. And there was no other search engine. Uh, but it would never be a product that every single person in the world used.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, it's changed a lot and it feels like the gap is closed. But if you actually like because there's been some things that have been even like an animated movie, animated TV show that gets a movie, you're like, oh, what's the difference? It's just like a two hour long episode. But they actually look. Yeah, there's still like a gap if you like pay attention.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But like obviously the gap gap is closing. But I mean, now there's some shows, mostly actually failures that like their budgets are like 30 million dollars an episode. The episode is one hour. That's roughly the same budget as like a hundred million dollar movie. Um, yeah. So yeah, the buds are, are, are closing in, but there's still really good movies.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I still think the movie side, there's still really good ones. There's just a lot of junk. Um, it's junk on both sides, I think.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I know the stories of, I like know a bunch of stories from that book. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I can see that. Yeah. Toy Story 3 came out the month that I graduated high school.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Even for us, it was really intense even just for...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Right. There's natural friction with, with the paid tier. And eventually someone would build, a version that's not paid. Uh, and if you do build the version that's not paid and everyone in the world starts to use it, you now have this opportunity to build a trillion dollar ads business. Right. Which is really, really hard to imagine ahead of time.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I think they definitely got better at that. And I think it's similar to video games where it was such a technological effort at first that like...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
also executing on narrative on top of that was really difficult but then you've seen over time that uh they're hitting like like video games are hitting like movie levels of like narrative and acting and i think that probably something really happened to to animated stuff um have you noticed that every pixar movie and a lot of kids movies the plot is we got lost we got to get home that's like the plot of so many kids movies yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yep. That was Finding Nemo. Like, it's the exact story. It really is. Exactly.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. And obviously it's the stuff that happens in between is different, but the rough, you start off with your home. Some, some mistake happens. You're not home. Then you have to get back home. Yeah. Well, home alone is fun. Cause that's a reverse. Oh, he was home.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
What else? I'm looking at the Pixar movies. Coco, again, he gets lost in the afterlife and he has to get back home. Ratatouille is different. Have you seen Ratatouille? No. Ratatouille is very good. It's the cooking mice?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Is that Pixar? Uh, yes.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
The little girl seen that gets lost in the monster world and has to get back home.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Was that the plot of Up too? Like they also get lost in the house.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Up you just can't watch. I couldn't watch it. It was hard as a kid.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
You should definitely watch the first one. It's a classic. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, I think the thing that they do great is it's a kids movie that's really...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
entertaining as an adult so it's truly like a family movie it's like there's like two two things going on at once like two storylines yeah yeah and that way you're like not bored as an adult you know yep oh inside out another one i don't know if you saw the latest inside out yeah i did yeah those movies are fun i like i think that metaphor is brilliant and just leads to like a lot of really funny funny things i can do with it i will say we we watched that one and i couldn't uh help but notice that i am anxiety but
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Like it's so hard to imagine like every single thing, if we capture a hundred percent market, like what are the business models? Like none of us would have come up with that. Google just serves as not on their own properties, but like across the whole internet and other sites, like, uh, it's like a giant, giant business that came out of this thing. And it feels like really random and unrelated.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
That's the moral of the story. Have you noticed that when they zoom into the parents' brains, that a different emotion leads them?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Like for the main character, it's joy, but then the dad, it's anger. And then for the mom, it's sadness or like whatever. Interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I didn't catch that. The metaphor is so good. They can think through all these little things. Oh, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But they won't get to hear it till next week.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So with these companies, it's the question isn't really what's a business model. The question is, do they have a big enough goal? In Bun's case, it's every piece of JavaScript ever executed should happen inside Bun. That's a really big goal. I can see that. I can see that potentially. Same with Void Zero. Like their goal is all JavaScript builds
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
uh anything like pre-run time building linting whatever that should all run through their tooling um And if they get to that level, there's probably going to be interesting business models that open up. It's going to be hard to invent them. Like there's companies like Docker that got to that level and then like really struggled to figure out how to invent a business model.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Uh, yeah, I know you skipped last week.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But the moment Docker did find something, they went from like zero to 100 million AR in a year. So it's just like that's kind of what venture scale stuff is like. It's really hard to see business model up front. But when you crack it, it's like.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
boom so uh to be fair i don't i don't know if this stuff is actually going to work out i'm not saying that it will but uh yeah it's just very unclear right now and but that's like just not the question the question is like can they actually grow to that level
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I think for a very long time, yeah, it's an interesting story. They're actually a really interesting story for anyone who wants to understand. There's like some write-up about their whole business history. And if anyone wants to understand this space, it basically captures every type of thing that can happen. So they did the impossible. They made something that changed the world.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Like every single, like Docker is massively impactful. Totally changed how we deploy stuff. It's everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. But the immediate winners were incumbents. Google Cloud, AWS. All the big cloud just added it. They already had the distribution. They had Docker support. Docker does not see really a penny of any of that. So Docker struggled for a long time.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
We had to replace you with someone. So I wasn't here talking to myself.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
And then it seemed like they were about to go under. And then they...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
just really focused on docker for desktop i think which is like really weird i don't really understand it uh and i just hate it on my mac i just hate docker for desktop so that's why i don't know if it's a good product but it just it was just an angle that they could take uh that the big clouds would never and that's where they made a bunch of money is that like super long-term sustainable i don't know but they did hit 100 million arr with that which justifies you know like billion multi-billion dollar valuation so yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
okay it's it's hard because i said that they had to do two things right they had to like do the first impossible thing then like somehow capture value dodging all the big giant companies trying to get there before you uh and they did they're always going to get there before you or even if they get there later they're just going to win um like bun for example the same situation like if bun becomes the fault way people do javascript
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Obviously, Google, AWS are all going to add support for it. So it's going to be tricky. But yeah, I agree. It's hard.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Except for the browser, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who's to say like the void zero thing, like the most obvious path for them is if they are handling all these like heavy, crazy builds, giant companies need like really, really good caching systems and typically pay for them or willing to pay for them. So they could build like a service that matches that. Again, I don't know if that's a venture scale thing, but yeah,
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
it's like not totally out of the question that there's there's ways that even now we could imagine what they could do but again it's just not the goal there's no point in monetizing something that doesn't win when it comes to venture scale so try to win first interesting try to win i mean yeah that makes sense i guess i said the dev tools thing and then i forgot sst is also the same
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
situation yeah so i'm not saying that's why i know it's like it's i have mixed feelings because it's i know how unlikely and hard and difficult it is and how i think the problem actually is that everything i just described i actually don't even know if the founders in this space understand what this is what they signed up for i technically didn't when i joined sst and i understood this a lot better yeah a couple years ago but yeah if you don't understand this then what you're gonna do is like focus on
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
like the business model too early. And then it turns out like your product doesn't even win. And like the whole thing is a waste of time.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
DevTools is like very... I would say DevTools is close to B2C companies.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, but I mean, if it works, it works. Yeah. But yeah, exactly. Like, I think there's like a over-rotation on, it's just, I think when you're, when you're observing some of these things, I feel like you get the right conclusion, but not really. Right.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Adam, this is literally the guy that made that bingo card of our podcast. Oh, no. This is one of the things I say. This is one of the things I say. Oh, let's try new stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So we had a period of time where there was these like really big blowups of like overfunded companies that just never had a business model and never made sense. And a lot of people witnessed that. So now there's like this thing of like, Anytime they see a company saying something like pre-revenue or we'll worry about the business model later, they're like, oh, it's one of those.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's going to blow up and fail.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's technically a fine word that also has a more intense meaning.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I mean, it's just easy to remember the negatives and forget the positives because the ones that win become so...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
normal that you like just don't ever think about them that hard yeah yeah again docker venture funded uh all the hashicorp stuff venture funded like ghosty technically wouldn't exist unless yeah you know he had a nice exit where he can kind of focus on that it's true all the hash a lot of hash course stuff is really great like like terraform a bunch of things like that so
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, just the ones that are good do the thing that's hard, which is you become invisible because you're just like a default. Yeah, and nobody talks about it. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, some of this stuff is really crazy. Like we were talking internally yesterday about like, okay, if our growth continues, what will our competition look like?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Because we start to eat into places that technically are competitive with companies we aren't competing with today. And it is a funny dynamic where... It's only a problem once you start making money, like a lot of money. Otherwise, people just look at you as like, oh, that's a cute project. Even if you're growing a ton and become really popular, they're like, not...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
really copy you or try to like stop it yeah so there's a lot of benefit to staying small with your revenue for as long as possible because it catches the competition off guard as we're spending into their markets because like a big established company is never going to be like uh oh this like open source project is getting really popular we need to make sure we clone it there just be like what do you mean like they're not making any money why would we waste time on that
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
by the time they see it by the time it actually starts to impact them it's like too late um so yeah there's a lot of funny dynamics with being pre-revenue some like advantages or low revenue rather speaking of pre-revenue uh can you catch me up on the hurricane there's a big hurricane hitting today sorry yes i'm known for my transitions yeah it's uh it's funny yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
No, they keep pushing the landfall time further and further. Hurricanes move slow. Yeah, I think I've caught that. Do you know the speed of a hurricane, like in terms of how fast it travels? No, like across the ocean? Yeah, because you always hear wind speeds of 165 miles an hour, but the hurricane itself is moving at below 10 miles an hour. Are you serious? Wow. It's so slow.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So land absorbs a lot of the hurricane's power. So you'll see as it hits land, it weakens. But right now it's still forecast to hit Tampa. I'm not gonna be affected if that's the case.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I just Googled it. It went from five to four to five again. They think when it hits, it'll be a three.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. It's weird because it's almost like binary. There's just a bunch of structures that are still not able to deal with any kind of hurricane. And when they get a direct hit, all those structures are affected.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Has anything happened? I don't know. What's new?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
There's this feeling, there's like this feeling I wish I can communicate properly when you see all these hurricanes flying around. It feels like you're just like It feels like you're playing dodgeball, and the ball is just flying around you, and somehow they're not hitting.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's funny, though, because the hurricanes sometimes have crazy pads, right? This hurricane started in the Gulf, which I didn't even know was a thing. It can start from the left side? What the hell? I thought it all came from the right.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I mean, I guess they do. I just never... I don't even know if it's atypical. I just never realized that. But like the last one, I think it was last year, it was going to hit Tampa, but then I think it went south and hit Naples. Yeah. It came from the right, like hooked around and it came back and then hit.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I guess the main thing was Veet finally announced their round, which they closed a long time ago, but I guess they didn't go public.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. So it feels like someone's throwing these like crazy trick shots. At the US.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what's funny. It's like random canals, which are like everywhere. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, I guess for our situation, he's just a year away from... He probably goes to school in August.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, it's really not long that we would need it, unless he waits two years, because he could technically... He wouldn't have to be in school until the following August. So it's possible we need it for a couple of years, but we'll see.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, I guess we haven't looked at daycares. I mean, we're just both home, so it'd feel weird to take our kid.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. And it's crazy that the cost isn't that different. Well, I guess I'm comparing Missouri and Boston, so maybe very different. I don't know. Okay, that's enough about nannying and babies and kids and all those things. Let's talk Terminal because I have so many thoughts and questions. And by the way, this show is sponsored by Terminal. Buy our coffee. No, subscribe to Kron.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
No, become a Kron member. We're going to make Kron. It's a membership. It's exclusive club. You're going to have so many benefits if you become a member of Terminal Kron. Dax, tell them what they're going to get.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, and the way you do that, we're going to say it every episode. You can just SSH terminal.shop. So go into our SSH store and you can become a member from in there. Just buy Cron. There you go. So the thoughts I have about terminal. I, I having that call yesterday and vegan, vegan bot has been joining just like in our Slack. He's in calls. Uh, he's just, he's a wealth of ideas. He had a night.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
What is the TV show? Is it community when the guy walks in with the pizza box and everything's on fire and like, yeah, it was that situation. I wished we weren't on the call yet until you were on.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
He had the idea that nerd sniped me into this obsession. I currently have, uh, so he's got all kinds of wacky ideas. Love vegan bot. Uh, Just being on that call, I realized, like, there's kind of this, like, we got the left brain, right brain thing going at Terminal. I feel like me, you, and David could execute and build anything and build it really well.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Like, we're very, like, precise, and we make really high-quality things that we make. And then Prime, Tiege, and Began are, like, our crazy cousins, and they have the most wild ideas. And they could just, like... Run with some stuff. I feel like they should be able to just run with a lot of Beacon's ideas around what digital membership could look like for Kron.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I want to unlock them and let us keep building the very normal looking coffee company that's high quality, a great experience buying our coffee. Not that we don't overlap and that there's not like...
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
That explains the way I feel a lot, I think, because we do have so many ideas and it just feels like because it's everybody's kind of side thing, it feels like we're always going to have more good ideas than we have bandwidth to execute on them.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
uh i'm not throwing shade at any of our team members it's just without you we're kind of the wild west we would do a lot of things i don't know if they'd be in any direction at all but we would blow with the wind we're going to talk a lot of terminal stuff today just for what it's worth uh sorry podcast listeners this is as much uh tactical as it is content
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I'm thinking from a marketing standpoint and just creating content and putting stuff out there. I would never do anything like what those three would do. It's just not in me. I'm very perfectionist-y and everything's very polished and I want to do things a certain way.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
But their fire from the hip, crazy ideas, and some of them not even a lot of effort, but they would really resonate with the people who like Terminal. I feel like that has to come from them. And how do we allow them to go direct? How do they not, I don't know, have to...
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
So there's this perfect example where one of them had an idea for if we're, we're late and, like we can't ship our first Cron membership box on February 1st and we have to at March 1st, we could just send a blank shipment that has like a note in it that's like project delayed. And it was kind of funny, like programmer humor. And that idea... It just sounds like, yeah, let's just do that.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
But it's like when you start thinking about, okay, how would we do that? The actual logistics of that are kind of a pain in the ass. And there's actual steps that have to happen to make that happen. It's not just like, oh, okay, yeah, that just buys us time thing. No, that's actually a thing now we'd have to do. What does that note look like? Is it printed? Is it written?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
How are we getting all that set up for Maher? How big of a box? Are we putting it in an envelope? What are we doing? There's so many questions still. that like an idea like that can sound so easy and like, this is the thing we can do because we're not going to have the hard thing ready. But even that is like a whole bunch of work and it's kind of a hard thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
At this point today, after a few weeks, we didn't even like plan on taking a break. I don't even know if we talked about like, hey, let's just take a break. I think it just kind of happened.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
So I think those three have the desire and the bandwidth to execute on these things. Do we just need to help coach and guide them towards... taking those steps. Maybe that's it. Yeah, I would say so.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Use your big brain. Do that thing where you just stare at the wall and think and maybe come up with some answers on this.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Hmm. Okay. It's not just stuff we send to people who buy stuff. It's just our social and content properties. That could all just be blown out so much more than it is. And I feel like they have that skill. So that would be great.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Totally fair. Yeah. There's just a lot of stuff on the terminal front now with the coffee business that I care about. I feel like toward the end of last year, it was like terminal is an events company. And after our last event, it's like very excited about doing these events. And that was just a lot of fun.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
And now I kind of think like in January, I'm just feeling like we got a lot of stuff we could do to make the whole like we're an e-commerce business thing more real. And yeah, I guess I'm excited about that again. I don't know about events. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
And that's kind of nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
We should another little teaser for those who haven't become a Kron member. If you're listening to this podcast and you're not a Kron member, how dare you? What are you even doing? What are you even doing with your life? If you're not a Kron member, just a little teaser that the first bag has been designed. It's hopefully going to go out February 1st. And it's amazing. it's hilarious and amazing.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
And David is incredible. Like the best designer ever. David's just the best.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
So it was an hour after the meeting, he posted the artwork. And during the meeting, when we're describing the idea, he's having like Google and look up what we're talking about because he's never heard of this. So he went from not knowing this was a thing in programmer land to like designing this amazing bag that represents the idea so well in an hour. It was impressive.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. Okay. So that's Terminal. Anything else about Terminal? I feel like there was something else, but I can't remember. Hmm. No?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
That's it. Okay. What else are we going to talk about? What's been going on in tech? You want to talk about technology?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, I could tell you were kind of like. just chilling, taking a little time between us not doing the podcast and not talking for that reason. And just like, I mean, everyone's pretty quiet during those two weeks.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Well, yeah, I wonder like your case, do you chalk that up to like people are hungry for more SST information or are you positioning the videos just broadly to like developers and teaching? Like what is your sort of like positioning of the videos?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Uh, but that just kind of reminds me of why I hate those two weeks and vacations and summer and anytime when I'm working and other people aren't, uh, I love when I'm not working and other people are, that's fine. It's just the other way around. It's very frustrating.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
They're coming from Twitter. Yeah, sure. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
So it's weird to me. You've talked about this AWS content gap. It's weird to me that AWS is that much more niche than Go. Because everybody uses AWS. I feel like for there to be so little in terms of content out there in the third-party world, AWS puts out a ton of stuff. But like... YouTubers that just do AWS stuff. There's not that many. And like tons and tons of people use AWS.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
AWS is the thing. That's the most common. That more people use and don't talk about. It's so weird to me. Like, yeah. Why on Twitter is there so little discourse about AWS? When like you go to, I remember being at TwitchCon and TwitchCon is like the most opposite, even though Amazon owns Twitch. It's like the most opposite thing to AWS I can imagine.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
And we're sitting around there, all the developer streamers at TwitchCon. And we're talking about AWS because they all work places where they use AWS.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
trying to spend their like educational hours on that so interesting yeah it's like is it not it's not sexy like if i want to learn something about what it is yeah like i want to learn some new language i want to learn about zig because i got some time now i got an hour and i want to watch something like watching like how to choose between rds and aurora versus like i'm gonna learn a new language is definitely uh less appealing i guess
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
So, uh, well maybe before we get into a bunch of terminal stuff, how you been? How are things? We really haven't talked much. I'm going to talk about the weather. That's what I'm going to do. Oh my God, Dax. No one cares about your 54 degree days in Miami. Like that's the warmest day I've had here in a month. If I had a 54 degree day.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. I'm glad you brought this up. This is actually a thing I forgot that I wanted to talk about when we were talking about terminal, which is I got a message this morning.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
from bash who is working she works for charm right on the uh charm cli she's in our terminal discord and she wanted to show how to fix a bug in our shop and she's like well i can't get i can't get it running because i don't have sst set up and i've just generally when like we've open sourced the repo. I want to have the open source community feel like they can come in and do stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
We have so much stuff we'd like to do in the shop. If we could have other people doing stuff for free, that sounds amazing. But how do we make it so that it's like super simple? Maybe it is just like,
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
more making a more clear set of steps if you don't want to run the whole back end, maybe just people who want to work on the front end, that's like a happy path where they don't have to know they don't have to do anything with SST. But like more broadly, do you think there's like, still just some kind of gap because SST super easy to get running?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
And it's super simple, but it's just is it lack of familiarity?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It's the AWS account dependency. I had this idea. I had that thought and I had this idea. Can we just have an AWS sandbox account that we make available to people who want to do open source contributions?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
They can just do go run. Oh, go run the SSH store. Sorry, that's what we're talking about.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, but what if they do want to work on the whole project, but having people set up a new AWS account, or if they've never had an AWS account, that whole process, just so that they could contribute to our thing. Is it possible that we just give people access to our AWS account? Is that a terrible idea?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Well, I mean that, that, that literal thing is, uh, not like they can log into the console, but just like some limited permissions that, that they can like interact and use.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I wondered that's exactly where I was headed in my mind was like, well, what if you just had a little bun serve that was like your, your router? And what if you just had, what if you had local versions of all this stuff?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, I'm trying to think about our current terminal architecture. Is it it's a router with a bunch of Lambda function URLs for the API?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, it could just be a container. And then we can just run it locally with Docker and everybody's happy.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I don't either, I guess. But, like, it'd be, yeah. Yeah. I guess maybe not. Yeah, maybe the use case is just I want people to be able to come in and work on our front ends. We have a few of them. Yeah. And add features.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I don't want to do a big thing, a big effort just to support a use case nobody has. Yeah, I can't imagine somebody wanting to change our API and us being like, yes, merge that PR. It sounds far-fetched.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Just first try. I don't need to debug.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Oh, I want to talk about AI coding assistance. Because something switched for me over the Christmas break where I decided I'm going to use these things way, way more. And maybe you've been using them this much, but like hit the cloud limits every day, twice a day kind of thing. And, like, just using... I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Do all the... Does, like, O1 Pro have this idea of projects where you can just drop a bunch of files as, like, context?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
So that thing is important for me because my workflow... is to drop like all my current files I'm working on, all the context that needs into the project. And then I just ask questions in the project to like make improvements. Yep.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
And it figures it out from there. Yeah. It's actually kind of incredible some of the things it can do. But then also it's kind of incredible how bad it can be sometimes. Like you can get it stuck in a loop, especially if you have one long conversation and you keep going and keep going. Where it tries like 15 times to fix a problem and it just never does it.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I just keep going because it's funny and I want to see, will it ever figure this out? You definitely have to figure out when to leverage it and when not to because I haven't figured out what problems are just not good for it and what ones it can nail and do them so quickly.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I don't know if you have any secret sauce there, but the process of exploring, leveraging it way more, the workflow is kind of clunky, copying and pasting stuff around.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
A sweatshirt, yes. Okay, I'm not so good at this either.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
how'd the browser come into play? Oh, you're saying like, if you're using, you're using Claude in the browser is what you mean? Like, yeah, I gotcha.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, where you can just ask questions. It can write directly to files and then you don't have to have this whole back and forth copy-paste job.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Oh, it would be amazing.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
So I'm really excited about this idea of, like, this workflow of, like, I'm an engineer. I'm in charge. But I'm leveraging LLMs. to think about my code base, make improvements, add new features, fix bugs. There's also the Devin thing, which is exciting too. I'm excited about... I churned from Devin.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
So I thought this could be both. It could be they both live on and these agents are doing these agentic workflows and submitting PRs. That's an interesting input-output for me. It's not stuff I'm actively working on. It's out of band.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I thought that could coexist, but I'm more excited about this idea that like, I want to improve, yes, the workflow aspects of what seems like a very powerful mental model where the LLM has awareness of your code base and it's improving files or suggesting changes. So yeah, I feel it's got to get better. And I don't want to use cursor. Everyone is like, that's what they're doing with cursor.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
But like, I don't want to change my IDE just to have this. It needs to be able to work with any LLM and it needs to be able to work within my text editing workflow.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Like in the long run, when that improves, do you think that is a use case? But you also have this like supercharged local development workflow?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
The fact that I'm still doing it, even though it's that clunky, though, speaks to like this needs to exist. The potential.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. So, okay. That just reminded me there is a third workflow thing that AI is doing for us. And that's the like, I mean, it's the co-pilot. What do we use? Super Maven. Super Maven. I use that as well because I do whatever you do. And then somebody has been recommending... Where is that tweet? I'm on Twitter as we speak. Hang on. Here we go.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
A bunch of local models people have recommended that are tailor-made for programming. Things like... I'm going to find it. I swear. DeepSeek. And there's another one. Somebody said Quinn 2.5. So there's these models that are specifically... better co-pilot models, I guess, the open source models. That's like a whole nother class. It's like line by line.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I want AI to just predict my next characters. But then there's like this clod projects, like broader context on the whole code base, rewriting whole files, refactoring across files. There's that thing. And then there's the like agentic Devin maybe never exists thing. It's interesting how AI within programming is like many things. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Is Devin the we don't have a job if it does work? Who cares? We're not going to even be around?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It's been a while.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Well, I really like the idea of this supercharged version of programming. It just, it allows you to do things that I wouldn't try to do. Exactly. It allows me to take on tasks I wouldn't even try to do on my own because I don't have enough context. I've not dabbled in that thing enough. I don't know the high level, like how you even go about solving that kind of problem.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I just feel so brave to go out and do big, crazy, stupid stuff. And it's because Claude can give me a first pass that's like amazing. It's incredible what it can do. And you can like,
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, it does away with that question of like, am I able to do that? Like, is this something I should try and take on? I should just leverage something else. Like, no, I feel like I can take on anything because it'll help me fill in the gaps quickly.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Oh, I don't have a condition. But when I work, like typing at my computer and then I go like upstairs and I like pick up my boy or something. He's like, your hands are so cold. Like my hands do get very cold. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, there's a very exciting world where an individual developer is doing things not possible before. I used to feel that way about... some of the like AWS managed infrastructure stuff. I mean, really what SST is doing. And I still feel like it allows smaller teams to do things that used to be really painful. This is just like a different version of that. And it builds on top of that.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Even like you can, you can still do all those things, but now you can like take on really weird tasks that I can't talk about because it's a secret. Yeah. I've rebuilt so many things for this very stupid specific environment that I'm building this. I've rebuilt so many open source projects in 30 minutes that work for this particular case. It's really interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Things that I never would have tried to do. Yeah. I just can't talk about it yet. It's so stupid that I can't talk about it.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Was it more than two weeks ago? Two weeks? Yeah, we didn't have two episodes. Does that mean it's been three weeks or two weeks? I don't know. Haven't talked to you since last year. That joke never gets old. It's always good.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
You got all these tabs open. That's what I do.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It just creates a bridge so much better than traditional Google page indexing. It creates a bridge from the actual world and everything that's been done so far to your brain and what your context is. It creates this amazing map that... It's so hyper specific to what you're doing and where you're at.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Whereas like Googling, you'd have to go from like, yeah, like you said, like 15 different sources of information and you're trying to cobble it all together in your head and make it all make sense for your context. The LLM just bridges that gap so nicely.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It's 26 degrees here right now. I just looked at my watch. Low of 12. Would you die? Would you just fall over and die? I mean, you're from New York. I would just die.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. How weird if you would have told us a year ago that we'd be spending so much time building... terminal things. Like, just how much, like, we've had to, like, build 2Es and, like, environments that run 2Es. I mean, you're doing, like, the next layer down. It's just wild how much our careers are weird right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
The acclimation thing is so interesting. Like if I went outside and it was 50 something degrees right now, I could be in my underwear and it'd be perfectly fine.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, I remember that. It would sound amazing.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
That reminds me that Ghosty came out and now I'm realizing it became the thing of the day. Everybody's talking about how awesome it is. And I realized so many people... don't really take advantage of it. Or they're not really... They're like, yeah, this is cool. But like you said, if they're just running git commit in it, then who cares?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
They want to be part of using... Yeah, they want to be part of using the cool new thing, but it's like they're not really benefiting that much if they don't use the terminal much. And I'm not saying developers have to use the terminal a lot. I feel like it made my job a lot more fun getting into that kind of stuff the last few years. Whereas before, I would just...
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Oh, is that, that's the period of winter you have there in Miami? Two weeks?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
made changes in VS code and get committed. Uh, I think in the last few years I've dove more into the, like programming is fun, but like I need more hobbies and that the terminal kind of became that, I guess.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
This is the best time to be in Southern Florida, in my opinion. I don't want to be there in May or June, any of the summer. No, that's better. But this time of year when you can be outside on Christmas and it's not that bad, that's nice. I guess I'm always coming from a visiting standpoint, so it feels nice. But if you live there, I guess this does feel cold.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. No, it's just so many errands. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Tell me what it is really quick. Cause I think I saw him mention it, but I think I missed like the announcement or something. So I don't know what it is actually.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I'm like, oh, that's actually perfect. Like tabs, you mean? Like horizontal, like... Yeah. Ah. Now... What did he actually make? I'm so dumb when it comes to this stuff. It's like a multiplexer like you made?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I was a contributor to TurboPack way back in the day. Oh, wow. Back in my next JS days, you know? That was Golang. I guess that was my first exposure to Golang. I had written Golang. It's not Go anymore. It's now on Rust. Oh, well, of course. But that's a whole nother conversation. I actually, I'm not going to lie. I don't know what's going on with Rust right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I think Prime, I heard you guys talking about it on a call yesterday. Like Prime did something and now Rust is a main topic again. I haven't even caught it.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Is it, like, Prime... I like Prime. He's a friend. He's a co-founder. Is it bias that I have this memory? Did he not... Like, is he not, like, a huge reason Russ became the zeitgeist? Like...
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
all the like trendiness yeah he was he he was so obsessed with that's a point where i found it annoying like i literally found it annoying and i was like when people talk about rust being this like cool thing that people use and it's mostly like streamers that was mostly prime right yeah yeah yeah i didn't know if there's people before prime that i don't even know about that were like shilling rust and making it cool but i feel like he brought he giveth and he taketh away
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I guess that's fine. Oh, that's funny. Okay. Well, no one can relate with you. That's how I've been. So I'm glad you're surviving your difficult weather there in Miami. Not hurricanes. That's not difficult. 54 degrees.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
He brought Rust into prominence. And then he said, you know what? Not that he brought it into prominence. That sounds wrong. Like I'm sure lots of people use Rust for lots of great reasons and they ship stuff on satellites and doing whatever they're doing.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
The Twitter interest, like the people we hang out with the YouTube and Twitter and like very online community got very obsessed with Rust. And that was a lot of primes doing. And then
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Interesting. This one's been long. Have we gone a long time? I can't really read. The numbers are so small. It's been 1-12. Oh, wow.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Let's make it three hours because it's been three weeks. We're going to make up for the other two episodes. I got nothing going on. Let's do it. I'm just kidding.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. It's the, it's what's that cycle, the hype cycle chart.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. Hopefully his dig can withstand.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
the prime train yeah we'll see yeah we'll see okay uh well i do have to pee and that's it's the new year but i still have so i know first because you told me that you peed right before we started yes so you literally have to pee it's been one hour way more frequently you understand me going an hour and 13 minutes is like long like i pee every 30 minutes in the morning after i've had coffee it's i peed this morning when i woke up that's it i probably have like a prostate issue or something and it's
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It's been like five hours and I won't pee probably for the rest of the day. Oh my goodness. I get up every 30 minutes to an hour. Yeah. Well, not the second half of the day. It's like something cools off. Maybe I just stopped drinking so much water or the caffeine. I don't know. Something happens and then like second half of the day, I don't pee much. First half of the day though.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Just lots of pee. Just peeing everywhere. Oh yeah, sure. No, because I totally stand when I pee like a normal US adult man. I don't. I sit. I don't care.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
They are.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I love them so much. I knew it. I'm not even kidding.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I think my toilet seats are one of my favorite possessions. Like sitting on my toilet seat is such a moment of joy every single time because it's like every single time I forget. And it's cold right now in Missouri. It's like 20 degrees. And I'm going to the bathroom because I got to pee. And I sit to pee like a normal European male.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
And as I'm getting ready to sit down, it's like, oh, yeah, the toilet seat is heated. Oh, I love it so much. It's the best feeling. I recommend them.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
You just buy one, man. They're the best. Mine's it's Toto. It's so good.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I don't want like some like random ass heater just in my room for like just get like a just get like a big GPU rig and start like doing local stuff and it'll be heating everything up. Right.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, that would be good. I actually did have like a desk mat that was heated. My wife got me once trying to solve the hand thing. I don't know if it solved it or not. I guess not. But they should make keyboards that are hot. Oh, the keyboard should be hot. Of course. Of course. Great point. Yeah. OK, I really see. All right. All right. See ya.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Mm-hmm.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
To eat your ribeyes. You have so many tweets about meat. It's crazy. Just how many of your tweets are like, here's a picture of Wagyu or whatever. It's just... It's like your whole timeline. I mean, you tweet a lot, so it's a small percentage of your tweets, but... Yeah, it's... I'm literally... I like...
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
We did. We had a recurring meeting. I'm actually super excited about this recurring meeting. I feel like it makes Terminal more real. It gives us all a little more... I feel more motivated after the call yesterday. Yeah, that's true. We're all on the same page. We got stuff we want to do. It feels good. I think the recurring meeting is good, as much as I hate meetings.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
There just needs to be circles. Remember when Google came out with a social media thing? Do you remember that? Who was that called again? Google one or what was it? There was like a whole like media frenzy and we all felt it in there. It was like Y2K. It felt like Google's going to take over. Facebook isn't going to be the dominant social media anymore.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It's going to be Google plus, which now is probably a different product. That sounds like an actual product. I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah. Do you remember that feeling when that was coming out that it was like... I never felt like it was going to be... I never felt any hype around it.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I remember feeling like this is going to take over and Facebook's going to be left in the dust. And they had this concept of circles. And like you set up all your different... And it kind of makes sense. Like you have different friends for different reasons and maybe they care about this and the other group cares about that and you don't want to share everything with everybody. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It kind of makes sense, but in practice, I don't think anybody does it.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I've been good. Okay, I got a little obsessed with a thing I'm working on. And that's dominated some of my thoughts. Well, it was like the Christmas break. It was kind of like your period of... Not doing much. I took a week off the Christmas week. And by taking it off, I mean, I took it off from my normal work. And I got obsessed with this little project. And it's stupid. And it's fun.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It's literally unbelievable.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It's made possible by two facts that again, can't really say, man, we have too many secrets around here. We just, I just. And this isn't even going to come out for months, probably, because we're going to wait. We got other stuff to do. But yeah, there's two little known facts, two facts I didn't know about that make this possible.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
And then, yeah, it just opens up all kinds of possibilities once you know those two facts. So stay tuned to Terminal Dumbness. There will be something dumb at some point. Well, there'll be a lot of dumb things between now and then.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Spoiler. It may be another way to buy coffee.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Anyway. Other than that, been good. Ace is back in school, so my oldest is back to school. We hired a nanny, and then she was like, never mind, after a week. Archie fell in love with her. Oh, that's sad. Yeah. like literally told her every day she left, like, I love you, bye. And like every day, when is she coming? When is she coming? And then it turns out she doesn't want to be a nanny.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
This was her first try at being a nanny. And I think she just got bored playing all day. Literally, we just wanted her to play with our youngest because he just needs constant like companionship. And it means nobody gets anything done around here. And she was basically like, it's such an easy job. I even feel bad taking money for it. He's the sweetest. It's too easy. Sorry, I don't want to do it.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Okay. So we're trying to find another nanny. We have one starting on Monday. We'll see how that one goes. Uh, okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. I could hire a full-time nanny for that here. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Like, I mean, these nannies, most of them are open to both. They prefer full-time. So yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Uh, yeah, we're trying to get somebody for just like 30 hours. We weren't trying to do 40 and the two people we've talked to have been fine with that. Like 30 versus 40, like six hours a day.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
What are the mitigating circumstances? I'm not smart enough.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Something like that. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Five days, six hours. Yeah, that's right. it would just make a huge difference in our life because, uh, then Casey could actually have any time where she wanted to do something she wanted to do, or just even like, we just get so behind on house stuff, chore stuff that needs to be done. Archie's kind of a special needs-ish child.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
He needs a lot of something and we know we're not just crazy and he's not just spoiled or whatever because we've had another child and he wasn't like this at all. Uh, Yeah, we don't know. It's something we're going to figure out at some point. We'll see if Nanny Take Two works. Is this like a minimum wage job?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
I'm trying to understand what the... Yeah, I don't know what minimum wage is, but it's around here anyway in Missouri. It's like $15 to $20 an hour for a nanny. That's what we're seeing.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It's not nuts, yeah. The first one we had was in her mid-20s. This next one is 17. She just graduated high school, and she doesn't want to go to college, and she wants to be a nanny. So, and she's actually like spent a lot of high school babysitting, like a lot. So I don't know. We'll see.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah. Do you think we'll actually have the meeting every week or is it going to be like seldom?
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
It'd be cool if we could have somebody for a few years that we knew wasn't going to get married and have babies and then leave us. Cause we, you know, we had an assistant Haley who helps with this podcast. Uh, hi Haley. Uh, she is amazing. Haley's the best. And then she had a baby. Congratulations, Haley. I hate you. Now she's having your second baby. So that's the thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
You find somebody you really love and they're great and they fit in your home and everybody loves them. And then life events, you know, just kind of the nature of. What about going to the opposite extreme? Get someone that's like 65. So that's another thing we've talked about. Like, can we just hire and have like another grandma that we pay to come here? That could be interesting too.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
We, I don't know if we've had a lot of people apply for
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
that were older older yeah most of them have been younger maybe that's just a geographic thing maybe in this area i don't know it does seem like there's got to be a bunch of women out there men i get probably women uh we would probably prefer older women i don't know is that okay to say no that's fine okay yeah it's fine i prefer it'd be a woman so there whatever no manny's No manis.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Like there has to be older women that don't have grandkids of their own or their grandkids live far away. And they're like, man, I wish I could just grandma all day. That's probably a thing too. We'll see. Hey, if you live in the Ozarks. specifically close to Springfield, Missouri. And you would like to nanny for our adorable little five-year-old boy. Just hit me up.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Yeah, older woman. Yeah, really anybody. If you listen to this podcast, that's a pretty quick filter that I'm going to hire you. Because I'm a narcissist and I want anyone in the home to know that I have a great podcast.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
For example. That wasn't frustrating at all. I don't know if you realize how important you are to those meetings because there are lots of ideas, Dax. Lots of ideas at our company. Everyone has ideas. We need someone to say, here's what we're going to do.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Mostly in the house all day. Yeah. I guess we haven't really sent, we haven't put either of our boys in the car with other people very much like grandparents, but that's about it. Oh, that's scary. Ooh. Yeah. Oh man. My oldest is going to be driving in like five years. Yeah. what is that going to feel like? I get it. I get all the tropes about like, like crying as they pull out of the driveway.
How About Tomorrow?
Miami is Cold, Adam's All in on AI, Dax Cracks YouTube, and Kids Are Expensive
Cause that's terrifying to think of my kid. I mean, he's 10 now, so I guess it would be terrifying if he was dressed right now, but, uh, yeah, we'll see.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And it might be this weird counterintuitive thing where if it turns out that half the time you're doing stuff that she disagrees with, she might still like you a lot more overall because at least it's not this weird thing. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Like you, you can do it. And then, and then she has a right to like find it annoying and complain about it too. Like that's what, that's all okay. Yeah. Healthy dynamics. And it's the normal part of.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Uh, on Tuesday, I deleted our primary database.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, because I'm waiting to figure some... I'll explain why.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So, on Tuesday night, or it was Wednesday night, I forgot. Wait, what day was the election? It was Tuesday.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Uh, I was watching the election and I'm like, okay, it's midnight. I'm going to do this big, uh, console deployment that we've been working on for a couple of weeks. Uh, and I did it all in dev and it went great. And I went to do it in production and I was like halfway through it. And then all of a sudden I was like, why is my SSD deployment erroring saying 404 database not found.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And then I go log into plant scale and it's an empty account. And I'm like, wow that is really bad uh what happened so in the moment i didn't realize i didn't understand what happened i was like i must have messed up our infrastructure's code somehow uh and like removed the database and then done a deploy yeah and then so like deleted the database
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So I was like, I'm not going to try to figure out what happened. I just need to get this fixed. So I ended up texting Sam, who's been on our podcast, the CEO of PlanetScale. It was embarrassing because I'm like, you know, I did like freaking delete it. I deleted our database. Like all of it is gone.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And then he replies, okay, like he asked me a few questions and he goes, you're so lucky that our CTO is at my house right now. They happen to be like hanging out together.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, I don't think you... But it's like, the reason I'm saying, uh, is like, that was an expectation that... I don't know. I wouldn't even think of that as a possibility, really.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And the CTO found it. Look at this service. They found the EBS volume that, you know, obviously when you delete something, they don't like immediately wipe everything. Yeah, sure. But I was worried that they'd probably have some process that runs at some point where it is not recoverable.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. So he found the EBS volume and just marked it as like to not delete or whatever. He's made sure that it wouldn't get deleted while the support team could eventually restore it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So I was waiting on the support team. At this point, it was like 1 a.m. my time. And I stayed up till like 2.30 waiting. And then I was like, I need to sleep. Cause I'm not, it's like no point in just me waiting. And I woke up and the database was back.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Uh, and like, it turned out like, of course, 10 minutes after I went to sleep, they like, they did the restore and then, uh, and I got everything back. And at that point I could like investigate what the issue was. And I still haven't fully gotten down to it, but this is actually was a bug either in, uh, I haven't found figure out where the source of the bug is. It's either in, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
or it's in the Terraform provider for PlanetScale. You know how you can import resources into existing... So this PlanetScale database we had was before stv3, so it was manually created. So I wrote in my stconfig to import it. There's just a really weird quirk that seems to just happen with the PlanetScale database, because I've tested this with other resources,
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
If it's flagged as being, this is an imported resource, and you do a deploy multiple times for removing the line that makes it import, it was creating another entry for that import. So it was importing the database multiple times. And then when the deploy would finish, it would clean up the old one. But it's like two entries for the same database. So it's like, oh, I got the new one.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Let me delete the old one. But the old one's pointing to the same database as well. So the mistakes I made on my end are anything important, you should flag as retain on delete.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, yeah. So if I had set that flag, if I remember to set that flag, I was like, this is an important, like I never want, it being deleted in an automated way. Like you need to flag this as retain on delete. I did not do that. The second thing is the API key I generated for PlanetScale. I had initially generated a really granular one.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And some point during the process, like while I was working on it, I lost the key. So I had to regenerate it and I was being lazy the second time. So I just made a key that could do everything. But there was no reason for this key to have the ability to delete databases. It was never needed. So I updated that now. With those two changes, it's impossible for this thing to be deleted anyway.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So we actually made an update to... So we actually have a list internally in SST of any resources that we think are popular that this can happen to. So we automatically mark them as retain on delete. So we add the PlanetScale database to that. And this will just be an ever-growing list of... uh, resources that we've just, it's probably good. Even if the person forgets, that's a better default.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. The better default. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, I have to still look up to see why this happened because I've tried with other resources and you can import the same resources multiple times and it just overwrites the existing one. It doesn't like create a new one and try to remove the previous one. Um, but yeah, it was, uh, it was bad.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, yeah. So it's data that is not recoverable anywhere else. Yeah. Here's another interesting dynamic that... I don't think this is going to change my opinion or make me actually do anything different, but it is something I considered where managed services are really good because somebody else will deal with problems, but...
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
if this had happened on AWS where I have more direct access to stuff, it's like in my control to fix it immediately. Cause like I have.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And then like, you know, AWS would have had the snapshots on delete anyway. So it would have just been up to me to restore it from, from the snapshot. Yep. Whereas now I have to wait on a support team. That said, we're not paying for any higher tier. If we were probably paying for a higher tier, we probably would have gotten more immediate support.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
We already got more support than we should have.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, exactly. We shouldn't have even gotten that given what we're paying. Yeah. But I think we were looking to see what... Because we were kind of surprised. We're like, how come they even had someone up at 3 a.m. to do this? Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. But I guess it's because they're really enterprise. They're actual customers. You know, pay them real money. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I think they literally have like five minute response SLAs or something like that. SLAs? Wow.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And I think we got a little special treatment because I think one of the staff that was They're like meant to serve those use cases and ended up restoring the database. So super appreciative, really stupid on our end. We'll try to pay it back by like really figuring out what the root cause was and making sure that this doesn't happen to other people.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And if you're not tired of that, if you just need the database at all, Just consider Planetscale as your first choice. And if it doesn't work for you, then you can consider other stuff. It's kind of my, I go there first. And if I can't use it for whatever reason, then I do something else. But it's not good, in my opinion.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like an AI-generated stamp.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Dax approves.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
People would get so pissed at that. They'd be like, who the fuck are you to have this opinion? You put your stamp on this thing and I hate this thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You're looking at me funny or is there a huge delay? No, no, no. I'm just laughing because I'm like, I think I would have given you the preview. Yeah, you were going to give it to me anyway. Yeah. Here's what happens. I always finish editing a video and I'm so excited. I just need to show people. And I'm like, I can't because I need to time it very specifically for when we release something. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So I'm always in misery for like 12 hours. This morning.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. This morning I was like, Jay, I want to post a video. Like, I know you will have this blog post you're writing, but like, let me know when it's done. And I just got so impatient. I was like, fuck it. I'm just posting it. Give me the blog post. I'll post it later. Yeah. But I, so I made that video. It took me exactly one day. I started yesterday. Probably around, like, planned it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And then I showered and shaved my head so I could look okay. And then I filmed from, like, noon to... I finished editing around, like, 10 p.m. It was a one-day effort. That was my first time filming entirely on an iPhone.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, because it's, like, just the floor of it is... Sorry, Sam just texted me. But it's not related to what we were just talking about. He goes, I did not wake up this morning expecting to see your nips. Every day is an adventure.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I mean, you're wearing a shirt. It's a thank you for the great support you guys gave us.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Um, but yeah, so I am really into this iPhone thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And so this is the first thing that I actually try to do with it. So I bought this rig that you like slot your iPhone into and it has like nice handles. I mean, we talked about it already in the podcast last time. This is the first thing that I filmed with it. And it was such a great experience. Like it's just so versatile. It's like so much less cumbersome. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
when you need to like rework stuff because something doesn't go according to plan it's pretty easy and the video quality is is pretty good it's great yeah like i'm looking at still frames of it right now yeah like it's uh it looks very good i just dropped in the standard lut that apple um gives you which uh you know i probably should have tweaked it it's like a little oversaturated but you know it's pretty good for what it's good
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's funny because... There's so many people replying, be like, oh, what a wealth flex. Like, you know, he's so rich that he can just spend this and not give a shit. It's actually not a wealth flex. It's actually a deep confidence in myself. That's what I'm flexing right there. I had no doubt that I wasn't going to drop it. It was on hard tile floor.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And I spun it a bunch of times throughout the day and I didn't drop a one.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
High confidence, really.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Just for my ultimate days, you know, spinning a Frisbee on my finger.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
That sounds really cool. Yeah. The other thing was I did not use any external mics. I just used the onboard iPhone mics. The iPhone 16 has three microphones on it now, and it does... a pretty good job. So that, that blew my mind.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And remember how noisy my backyard is because the highway is right there. And it was pretty windy too. So that plus like a tiny bit of processing during editing. Yeah. It's a, yeah, it's clearly none of it is as good as a pro setup, but yeah, It's so close that the cumbersome trade-off is just like, you're just going to produce better stuff because it's more flexible. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm pretty excited. We're going to use this in New York. Nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Are you still going? It's a roller coaster.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
trying to figure out what life looks like the only thing is it can't really be day by day for this because like we need to figure out a solution if you can't go yeah yeah yeah that only occurred to me this morning i was like before i was like yeah it's fine you can figure it out but it's like okay that that's the one thing that okay i will let you know is a little critical one of these day by day it's not a big deal either way we just need to know what we need to buy on our end okay um which we can do uh
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, I bumped from the 15 to 16 just because of the mic thing. And I gave Liz my 15.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I've had it for a couple months now. It was during TwitchCon. Was that new? I think.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It probably came out two months ago.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Okay. Don't worry about the meta stuff. Let's just start talking. I will, to balance it, I also had something embarrassing and very annoying happen to me at the beginning of this week.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm thinking about that goose meme. What's the goose meme? Do you know the goose meme where the goose is like chasing the guy asking him a question?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Is it a duck? It's this one. It's this meme. I found it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, everything about that sentence is wrong.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Or goose or whatever. Is this a goose or is this a duck? What did you send me? The one I just sent you.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Except he's asking, how'd your phone break? How'd your phone break?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
People replace that with something that's wrong. I get that.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Is that why? Oh, that confirms it's a goose.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Maybe that makes sense.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Okay. What else is going on? Let's see. Let's see. Let's see.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I will share that afterwards.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So I have a grand explanation for all of this.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So to me, this is a very bad situation. So here's my psychological analysis of everything that happened. So Guillermo tweeted, congratulations, Donald Trump. And then he posted, it's crazy to see the impact of X. And he listed a bunch of things that he was like, it's crazy that this stuff had an impact on it.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
The reason he did that is because he's trying to fit in with like the Silicon Valley, like very serious CEO crowd. Because if you look at it, all the billion dollars, you know, company, public company CEOs are posting that. So his message wasn't deeply insightful. It was just kind of like this vague, like, you know, mimicry of that vibe.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It was definitely a very tough week.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So in a way, it's a little sad because it's like he was just trying to fit in with his group. Yeah. And then the people reading it read it as an extremely strong endorsement of certain things that they don't agree with. And they found that very disappointing. And everyone was really pissed at him. But the reason I find it sad is because he wasn't doing that, guys.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
He was just trying to fit in with his group that he wants to fit in with. And then everyone's really pissed at it. Yeah, I mean, on one hand, I get it. The timing of it was insane, especially to an audience that leans pretty much in one direction.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't know if I would call it valid. I think I understand it. Um, I obviously don't have that reaction at all anywhere remotely to that reaction. I think, you know, everyone has different levels of emotions at the end of the day. And I get how literally, you know, in the, in the, like within 12 hours of the event, um,
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Probably people, you know, saw it in a much more extreme way than it was intended. And they disagree. They finally disagree. And I think that it's... They don't feel aligned with... this company and the tool. And I get that. And you're totally allowed to feel that way. And to like, you know, I don't agree with this thing where people are like, you should not boycott people over politics. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I wouldn't. Yeah. I personally wouldn't, but I think people should, should be allowed to do that. Yeah. And just like, it's, it's, it's fine. It's just, to me, it was just like a, Funny, dynamic, because it wasn't intentional. It was treated as a heavy endorsement, but it wasn't.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Oh, was it really? Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's, it's funny. Cause it's, it's technically virtually on the other side too, because why is Tim Cook and. Like, why are they doing this? It's because they are. enormous companies that face heavy regulation burden and they need to cozy up to whoever the current administration is. And Guillermo's like, yeah, us too. We're also like that. We're also that important.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Look out for Vercel.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's just a funny situation. I think it upset a lot of people and I'm sure the employees within, and I've talked to a few people that are
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
that work inside purcell that you know didn't didn't like that and i think if i want to make the case for people that are upset with it it's that generally this is fine no matter who wins an election like there's two candidates you agree with one screw the other it's fine it's a democracy it's the outcome of the election um and you know everything you're saying makes sense i think the way people feel is this candidate is so outside the bounds of what's acceptable that
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Anyone treating it like a normal situation is implicitly saying that this is... I'm normalizing this candidate as a normal person, but people believe that this is... So outside the range of anything normal, we shouldn't do anything that might potentially normalize this type of behavior. I get it. I see that argument. Yeah, sure.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It was like a colossal loss. It was like a slap in the face, right? They did so bad across the board, everywhere, Senate, House of Representatives. Compare every single county to how Biden performed. And Biden was like such a nothing candidate to be in with. It was like... It's just like...
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They've had so many moments where they should have like been like, we need to pivot drastically because we're like failing in places we should not be failing at all. Yeah. And you kind of wonder like at what point do they realize like we got to stop fucking around and like just go for the win. Yeah. And do what we need to go for the win.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And what they need to do for that has been kind of obvious for a very long time. So yeah, I just don't know why it doesn't happen.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm pretty simple on this front. I think a few things that they do wrong is every, every politician when they were campaign, they're supposed to do some very basic things, make very concrete promises so that the average person can understand what they're getting when they elect you. You know, most of the times these are like effectively lies or they don't happen, but that's like the thing.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
When I say Trump, you know that you get border, you get tax cuts, you get like these like any average person can probably tell you what they are. Yeah. If I say, you know, the other candidate, what, what, what is their thing? What are you getting with that? Sure. Nobody knows.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Not only is she half Indian, she's actually from the exact same part of India as me.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't like her and I don't think she's a good candidate, so it's fine.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And that's kind of what I'm saying. Well, that is true, but... I don't think the reason they lost was because the Democrats failed to win over really passionate people. What happened was they just failed to win over, they just failed to win over, like, People that don't care that much.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And Trump is always going to have like that side of the passionate equivalent on their side. Right. Yeah. It just felt like people were like, I don't care about the details. Like, here's X, Y, Z reasons why I'm happy. And there's one candidate says he's going to fix X, Y, Z things. Whereas I feel like Democrats entire thing, they keep doing this is they're
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
All they talk about is how they're not this other person, how this other person is really bad in X, Y, Z ways. And even though those things are true, it's just not what the average person is looking for. Yeah. So that's one thing. And the second thing is just actually just steal what the Republicans talk about and just make that your own talking points.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Because they're just basic things that everyone, the average person cares about. Yeah. I feel the Democrats are really focused on these really complex issues. like crazy ideas that don't really impact most people. Like just kind of flush that side of the stuff out of your party and just be like kind of boring and be like, we're going to make you richer. We're going to make you safer. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You do that. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Just do that. Be boring. Be straightforward. Pick a candidate that like is like a Southern governor or something. That's a Democrat. There's a few of those. I just can't see you not winning if you do that. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Was it a Southern state or from Minnesota? Yeah. Midwest. Like, you know, he's pretty, he's pretty close.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They were considering the one from Pennsylvania. Okay.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They're considering the governor of Pennsylvania. He was like, I guess there's no one state that decided this one.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It was just sort of like a sweep. It's like, how did you do worse than Biden?
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
The other thing is, uh, I think this has gotten more extreme over time. I think it's going to be very, very hard for a candidate to have consecutive terms. I don't know how frequent this has been historically, but I think it's just going to get harder and harder because I just feel like it's an overall attention span thing.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like we try someone new and if it doesn't go well, we're just like, we want the next thing.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So picking a candidate that's associated with the existing administration, you're just like screwed from the beginning.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like it's kind of, and like, she's stuck being like, I can't be like everything. I disagree with everything.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And like you were there. So you're just, you're just kind of saying like, I failed to be impactful. Oh yeah. That's tough. Everyone wants something new. Everyone wants like a brand new,
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. So I think given those things, you just got to bring something fresh every single time. And I hope the next time that they put someone up,
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. I guess what I'm saying that like picking the candidate is one thing, but just overall, just the attitude does not seem to be like, we're going to do whatever it takes to win. Like we're going to figure out the strategy we're going to do. We're going to, we're going to focus on what people want to hear. We're going to like say those things.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
If that changes, we're going to pivot and say the other things that people want to hear. Like it's, it's an election. It's not like, You got to do what you need to do to win the election. So then you can do the things you need to do when you're in power. And that's just the way it is. Like it's maybe doesn't fit some ideal, but it's just the way it is. The game will never be the same.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, you're right.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You know what it feels like? You know how it feels like when it comes to sports, let's say like sprinting. You know, someone should just be able to like... be born a certain way and then like just train generally. And then they could just be the best printer ever. But the game has gotten advanced even for something as basic as run really fast. It's like, there's a whole perfect nutrition approach.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
There's a whole like exact type of training you need to do. And each thing gives you like a 0.1 percentage advantage. And there's just so many of those things where if you're not playing the game, you like really just, the game has just changed. I feel that way about, uh,
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They look like boats. Yeah. They literally look like a hole. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Yeah. Just less weakness, more strength.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. I mean, Bush in between.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
But the Clinton win was very similar to the... the situation right now, but in reverse, the Republicans were messing up in a way. And then the Democrats are like, here is a Southern governor from Arkansas.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Who's young also. Like he was pretty, he was definitely not near the ages that we're listening. We're seeing now. What is that about? I don't understand the politics thing. Yeah. 90 year old. The other thought I had is like, we might just be in like a really weird time. Like, there's a lot of people from a generation we cannot connect to at all still alive.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And then you like shift forward 10 or 20 years. And that'll be different. Everyone kind of looks the same at that point. There's like not really... These people that are like, they live in a different world, effectively. Just say it. Boomers. They're boomers. Yeah, they're boomers. That we don't have any boomers. Have I ever said the word boomer before?
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Like by the time, like in 10 or 20 years, the oldest people around will maybe be our parents. And yeah, like if that, right. And it's at that point, it's like everyone, most people on earth are going to be from this like internet world. Uh, and we're definitely not, we definitely don't all agree, but like there's at least there's not like these, like there's that commonality. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like I think generally people from those world, like understand like the modern world where like a lot of what you read is not true and you're skeptical of like everything. Like it's, it's a, that's a great point.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like, you know, the world changed a lot in a certain time period, and you're either on one side or the other side of it. Mm-hmm.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I got a comment on the video already that was like, I love that Miami's humid because it makes your head look so shiny.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't, yeah, I don't get, I don't get dry.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Oh, I remember that. That lip, the lip.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like, Just my whole life. How can I say this? I don't have chap lips.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
The moment you say that, it makes me really excited to hear what you're about to say.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, actually, people with darker skin tend to have drier skin. Really? Okay. In my experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. I think that's related to the climate. When I was in colder climates, my super dry skin, I still don't take care of my skin that well, but it's way less dry than it used to be.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's like identical to Miami. Really? Tropical. Well, that's nice.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm in my, I'm in my, the correct environment. Did you ever play Zoo Tycoon?
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. You like build the cages? It's like Rollercoaster Tycoon, but you make a zoo. Yes. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And you have to like, you have to like put like the right terrain and environment so the animals would be happy. Oh yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It feels that way. I'm like in the correct habitat, yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, I think as I was imagining me being in Florida, it's like, yeah, I got dropped here, but like, you know, they recreated the right environment for me.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Mr. Tycoon himself.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. It was the last name.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You have somebody? Can I tell you something I struggle with a little bit? Yes. I think that I... This isn't like enough of a problem to say like we should or should not do anything.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I think I struggle. No. Okay. I struggle with those types of guests.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like people that are accomplished and like further... They're past the point where they have accomplished something and now they're just established. Like DHH? Just call them out. Because... It has nothing to do with the person. It's a me thing. I...
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
feel like i am way too on the same track or attempting to be on the same track as these people so my entire mindset around everything when i think about these people is like seeing me be their peer one day because i like get to maybe not the same level accomplishment but get to like any amount of accomplishment on the same track and when i when i like when we have them as guests like i don't i don't feel good in this like interviewer
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yes, exactly.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
But this thing where if you're just trying to be... if you're, if you're not on the same track with these people and you're just trying to like do content and do that stuff, like it makes, it makes total sense. But for me afterward, I always had this like weird feeling of like, I don't know.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's hard for me to articulate, but it's, uh, it just in conflict with like my drive and my motivation and everything. I suddenly feel like I'm being pushed into this other. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I think the other thing that's challenging is when you're in this interviewer position to do that, well, you have to be really neutral and let the person like really be able to get deeply into the way they think. But because I want to be more of a peer, I don't want to do that. I want to like be in conflict in certain areas and like have a different perspective on it.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And the reality is it's, you can't really do that. Like that just doesn't really with someone like that.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It just doesn't really, really exist.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, we should do it. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, we should do it.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Has that changed too?
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You were peeing because you were so nervous. I was so nervous. You were bottling up all your emotions and the emotions were pushing out the urine.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I mean... You had some kind of repressed stuff, so you were just drinking the water as a way to self-regulate.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So before we get off, I want to tell you one theory. So Liz has all these funny theories that are like... They're funny because they seem kind of ridiculous, but they're not totally implausible. She has a whole set of them. But there's one that maybe you'll find helpful. Oh, I love it.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Exactly. She thinks that we all underplay the role of smell in all parts of our lives, especially relationships. And she thinks that, uh, when you meet someone new, all the excitement is because you have this new smell and then eventually you get very used to their smell. And that, uh, correlates with, you know, the relationship going stale.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And I, I, it could be true. And there just needs to be compatibility with smells. And she's like, that's how animals work. And we're an animal. Like, why do we think we're, it's true. We're, we're beyond this. Um, And she has a bunch of other observations around this that I can't remember right now, but to support it.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Probably everything, but I think she's mostly talking about romantic ones. Huh. So, yeah, maybe you guys should spend time in places that don't have each other's smells and then get back together.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
That reminds me... Okay, there is some kind of perfume that I will smell off someone. Like, maybe, like... Once every two weeks, like walk by someone or whatever and I'll smell it. It is such a shocking smell to me because it smells so strongly of like cleaning alcohol or something. And it reminds me of like COVID for some reason.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It reminds me of like disinfecting something, like all the disinfectant that was just like in the air everywhere.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
and like it like i had such like a repulsive reaction to it and for the longest time i didn't even know it was perfume i literally thought like oh someone just like came from the hospital without hand sanitizer or whatever or like yeah something like that and it's it's like this guttural reaction i have and then i realized the other day like no that they're smelling like that on purpose like they're trying to trying to smell like that
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I like my brain, like Kyle understood how it could be a perfume for like a second. And I was like, Oh my God. But for me, it just smells like horrible. It reminds me of COVID. Yeah. This is the worst design perfume ever.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm not trying to shame. I'm sure I had the same high school boy thing where I tried it for a bit. But I'm just not good with habits like that.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Are they embarrassing anymore? Probably.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
But every generation needs something to look back on and be embarrassed by because it's like a bonding thing.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I just had the fucking thing in the front.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, and my hair was super curly, so it was really hard for me to get it like that.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Natural. Yeah, I could have had it. I could have had it naturally. Yeah, I know. Born at the wrong time. Now I don't even have any hair, so I can't even do it.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Did I tell you my plans for my hair? No. implants okay so no no okay so i did so i found out that one of the best hair transplant places in the world is like 10 minutes away of course it is of course it's in miami yeah uh-huh yeah of course so i was like okay i'll just go get a consultation see what yeah what's what And here's why I know it's a really good place. I went in, had my conversation.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They talked me through a bunch of... They asked me a lot of really interesting questions. They had a lot of suggestions. And they told me not to do one. Oh, why? That's how you know they're good because they're not trying to just get the money out of you. Yeah. So basically, here's the thing I did not understand. So my thought process was... I might as well get it.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
If I don't like it, I like the way I like my shaved head. I can just go back to it. Yeah. But it turns out you can't go back to your shaved head if you get a hair transplant. Cause where they, they take the hair from the back of your head and it leaves these like little dots there. So you have to commit to like your new full time, the new look forever. Yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And if you don't like it, you can't, you can't shave. So yeah.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, so he literally looked at me and he just judged me aesthetically.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. So he was like, I think I would make you look worse if I did what we did. And he said I would have to have two treatments, not just one. And so it would take like a year and he just, he was just like looking at everything. It was just like, I noticed he's like, yeah, he had very low confidence that it would make me look better.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And that's, what's funny about doctors in this field, whether it's plastic surgery or hair transplants, they need a sense of aesthetics to be like, I can make this person look better.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
or i can't make this person look better and this is what looks good this is what looks bad and they like study that and get it get a good taste for it so now i know that a hair transplant is technically never going to be an option for me unless they figure out hair cloning which is like they take a little bit of your hair and they make it into more um which is like you know that's like the technology trying to figure out yeah um so i'm like okay if i can't do that i'm gonna go the other extreme
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm going to get laser hair removal on my head.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, so here's the next funny bit. So I'm looking into this. I'm like, is this a thing? Whoa, this is really great. Someone on YouTube just makes a bunch of content. She's someone that removes, that does this, and she makes a bunch of content about it. And I learned so much. Looked her up 20 minutes away from my house.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
the best hair removal place the best hair addition place anything aesthetic you want to do to yourself you know miami's got you covered it's like what we do um so i think it's going to be a little painful and it's like make sure you don't stay in the sun a little bit after you do it so it's a little tricky but yeah yeah but like just never had like if i could always look like this this is like i shaved yesterday yeah um
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
That would be fantastic. And I don't have to worry about my hair ever again just to my beard.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
like kill the hair follicles but like then the hair would slowly start falling out and you just have all these missing patches that'd be awful i don't understand why wigs aren't more popular yeah like they solve the problem perfectly like you look you can look like whatever you want that's a good point why isn't that more popular i could just wear one even like it could be the way i style my hair and then i don't have to style my hair i just have a wig on save me a lot of time so right now you're wearing a hat because yeah instead of wearing a hat you just throw on a wig you know
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't know.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I never thought of that. Try one on.
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Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, you can convert, but I have too many Palestinian friends, so I don't know if I could actually do that. Also, our coffee supplier is Palestinian.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I was mostly kidding. I do wonder what I look like with a yarmulke. I see why you're saying that, because it looks like it would just perfectly fit right there.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Well, I was going to say something that was maybe the most offensive of everything you just said.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm going to say it. It's just a theory. It's not real. It's just a funny observation. When people go bald, they get that circle right here. Exactly where the yarmulke goes.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
That is quite convenient.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I was prepared for this to be like a really long thing that we talked about. And then you just, I think halfway through, you're like, you know what? We can just make this really quick.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
what they call it the solar panel they call it something like that that's what they like when you have a bald spot right there they call it the solar they call that they call it something oh the horseshoe or something i don't know but uh i feel like we've offended so many groups of people on this episode bald people i mean that's good as long as we offend everyone okay
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Okay. It doesn't seem targeted.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You voted for Trump, you're an idiot. You voted for Kamala, you're an idiot. Didn't vote, you're an idiot. Yeah. How could you not vote, you loser?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They should just listen to episodes of our podcast while we record this.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Sometimes instead of watching, we'll just spend an hour browsing, like intentionally. Like sometimes I'm like, I'm feeling browsy. Yeah, browsy. And we'll just, we'll just like go through each thing and look at it and just make funny comments and we'll spend an hour. Yeah. And then we'll go to sleep.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I, like, vaguely, like... I don't know what speaker you're coming out of, but it was really distant.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Acknowledged. I mean, you don't have to talk about that, but I will say people love hearing that shit. Oh, really?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Well, I'm saying I think oftentimes you feel like I'm talking about me a lot and this is like so unrelatable. This is just something like so specific to me, but like, let's be honest. There's a reason that the most watched TV is in the reality TV category. Good point. People in their core love hearing about reality.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
stuff yeah that is personal in people's lives so you don't have to talk about any of it like i think if i were you even how much you just talked about i think i would i would struggle to i do think it's a right call i think what you said makes sense um because like yeah it would be weird to get on here and pretend like everything's normal yeah yeah this has kind of been something we've been talking about for the past week uh but yeah um my only thing is i mean i said this to you over and over uh
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I feel like, and you've heard this from me enough times, but I'm just saying this for our audience. You are someone that really looks to blame yourself a lot, even in really small cases. And I think when there's complicated situations where It's something you did, but it's very complicated because this is all reflexive thing where it was because something else and that was because something else.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I think you your natural tendency tends to be to like solely reduce it to like the one action that you did when it's a lot more complex. So anyway, even as a way you describe the situation, I hear people listening. It sounds like the equivalent of. everything was great and I cheated on my wife, you know, it's like, it's, it's like not, it's been a lot of complicated situation.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like people can imagine. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You're about to start like an emo band. Yeah. I think that makes sense. You guys want to go for like a reset. Let's try creating something new. Yeah. Um, are you guys going to try doing something really drastic just to get like superficially drastic just to get out of, you know, certain habits and stuff. Have you considered that?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like, I mean, kind of. Yeah. Cause it's like, it's just like with any habit. It's if you're in like the same type of environment, even though the habit is not related to the environment, it's like, Easy to fall back into it? Yeah. That's kind of how our brains work.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't know. And nobody knows what's going on. It's funny because there were a few posts today about this podcast. And someone was like... Oh, really? Someone was like, it's so annoying when they skip a week. And I was like, we're about to skip another week.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Let me just say one thing about that. The thing you just did. It's funny because it's this weird thing where you were concerned that you did the wrong thing and you upset the other person. And it seems like that is a situation that's bad for you and good for the other person because you're being really careful and the other person gets the benefit.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
But in reality, no one actually wants to be in that position where someone needs to check in with them about everything. I think I've noticed with situations where it feels like the power dynamic is off, everyone imagines the person getting the upside is actually really happy, but nobody's actually happy.
How About Tomorrow?
Rita Kozlov on Building In Public, Cloudflare's Birthday Week, and How Long Software Actually Takes
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I can't remember how far he said in the solar system, but like long ways. And they're looking at planets that are just past the sun because of the way large bodies work space and time. Yeah. So the sun basically like focuses the image, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
of the star just beyond the edge of the sun and these cameras are looking at yeah it's super wild so using the sun is like this amplification of our ability to to view exoplanets anyway let's talk about something that's not on another podcast My memory's not good enough for this exercise.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, we didn't really talk about DeepSeek much, did we? Can you just run that on your local machine? Can I just start getting coding benefits from DeepSeek R1 without an API call?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay, so how do people use DeepSeek R1 right now? How does it exist?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Oh, okay.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
They did it for less. It's like the... Not Indiana Jones. What's the guy? MacGyver. They just MacGyvered it and they made it out of duct tape.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
It's just... Oh, whoa, whoa. Stop. Hold on. Catch me up. I didn't know that it wasn't true. What are the facts that aren't true? Because I don't even know the facts around it, really.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Is it a currency thing? Or were they talking maybe yen or something? No, make it even cheaper.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
And you just think, you think, why would they, oh, because it's like a competitive thing? They're trying to lie.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
What are you doing in Boston?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
No one's been able to reproduce it for once. That's not a thing. Could you make some of them explicit? Yeah, say some of the reasons because I don't always connect dots.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I didn't know this.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay, you've got a lot of context here. You need to lay it all out. Spell the case out for why DeepSeek is a fraud.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay. NVIDIA is an American company, right?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay. See, these are things I just don't know for sure. So you got to spell it out.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Sorry, going back just real quick. The reason they can't export them to China is like American law?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Got it.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay. Is Singapore in China? I'm so dumb. I'm so sorry.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Oh, so they're buying all the GPUs and then just taking them into China? Are they smuggling them?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
That's awesome. Yeah. Tell him I said hi. Or if he's a listener. Hi, AJ. I'll just bypass Dax. He's a terrible middleman.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah. Okay. But DeepSeek put out a paper. I know this because all the software engineering nerds who act like they're smart enough to understand papers are like, oh, check out this paper. This is amazing. Like you don't know what the paper says. Just stop.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay, but question. Did they not have to outline in the paper what hardware they use and all that stuff? I guess they don't have to, but would they not generally do that?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
If it's in the single digits of millions of dollars, I feel like there's somebody out there sufficiently motivated to reproduce. Can they not reproduce based off the paper or there's still some secret stuff?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So I imagine that something similar is going on here. So, so you're saying like, I have so many, I'm sorry, I keep interrupting you. I just feel like you're, you're moving a hundred miles an hour and I'm like at the stop sign still. So you're saying that like big companies just all believe this is a bunch of BS. Like it's just,
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Uh, I've been listening to a lot of stuff. Uh, we don't want to talk about AI more. Do we?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
like the broader people in the know in the industry just dismiss this thing right out. And we're all excited about it, but they're like, yeah, whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay. Whatever. I was just listening to, uh, Oh my God. Uh, just sorry. This reminded me of, uh, this reminded me of this stupid show. Casey and I've been watching on Netflix. called later daters. And it's like these 50 to 60 plus. Yeah, it's like, it's these older people, 50s and 60s dating, like divorcees, widowers, et cetera. And there's this woman who they have like a dating coach.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, I guess has, like, OpenAI, so you said they said this thing about them using their outputs. Have, like, people like Sam Altman or any of the figures in this space come out and said anything about DeepSeek publicly?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
You tweeted this? I got to see this. I'm trying to do so many things. I was also trying to look up techno signatures because I feel so bad about not knowing. THDXR. Okay, so you just tweeted this recently? I tweeted it last night. Last night. Oh, wow, bro. Claude is straight up pranking me now. Can I make it do on conflict on anything? Yes, in Postgres you can use on conflict. Just kidding.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
What in the world?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
The Claude thing, I heard somebody or somebody tweeted this the other day that Claude was getting dumber. And he talks about it on the podcast. Apparently, Lex asked him a question from Reddit, which was like, why does Claude just keep getting dumber? And he kind of goes on to say that people report this on all the major models. This isn't just unique to Claude. Yeah, it's not.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
He kind of explains like... It was kind of hand-wavy. I don't know. I didn't really take from it that I believe they don't get dumber. He said they don't intentionally... They never change the weights. They do sometimes change the system prompts and they change some other things. And I don't know. But he basically was saying like, most people, it's just like a psychology thing.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
You're really impressed at first and then you just get less impressed over time.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
But I do genuinely feel like it's gotten dumber in the last couple weeks. And I don't know what to do with that feeling. Because if I felt it, and then I read someone else felt it, and then I learned that Reddit feels it, there's something there, right? Because it's like things that I felt like it was doing a pretty good job... A few weeks ago, it feels like it's not doing as good.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Is that the kind of tinfoil hat theory that it's a cost thing, that they're just using less resources over time for inference?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
who seems to know stuff about relationships. And she encourages this lady to like open up conversations, like break the ice by talking about like a podcast you just listened to. But like the woman didn't quite understand. She doesn't seem to grasp the idea that you have to like actually talk about the podcast.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Oh, is that the end of your thought?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
That wasn't good enough for you? No, it's good. It's good. I just thought you were, like, on a roll, and I'm, like, looking up techno signatures. Oh, my God. Just give up on techno signatures.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
No, I found it. I found it. So I'm going to tell you at some point. But I do want to respond to the last thing you said, which I totally knew what you were saying. Oh, I'm sorry. This has been a weird one. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, you never use it. And then when you turn it on for the first time, it does. It smells like there's like a actual like wood burning fire in your house. I know that smell. I did have a follow-up to what you said. Sorry, I had a question.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Do you know, when we were just talking about inference and the GPU resources allocated to inference, they have to use, I guess now, thousands of GPUs to do the training. Do you know, orders of magnitude-wise, what inference looks like compared to training resources, like infrastructure?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay, so if they have 10,000 GPUs, like most of the 9,000 are used for... I don't know the exact ratio, but I know it's more on the training side than on the inference side.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Intuitively, that made sense to me, and I figured that was the case. It's just interesting when you think about a business, the lifeblood of Anthropic or OpenAI is this huge farm of GPUs, and that huge investment in GPUs is useful for training new models. So they just always had to be training new models to get... the thing out of that huge investment. Right.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Which I guess they always will be training new models. So maybe it doesn't matter.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
And she would just open all her dates with, so I was listening to this podcast with Matthew McConaughey. And that's all she would say, like that line. And like, you have to keep going. Yeah. It just made me think of it, though, when I said, I was listening to this podcast. I just wanted to break the ice with you. Yeah, pause. That's all. I was listening to the podcast.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, and Sam Altman sucks. That's an easy way to not want to take that bet. Well, I mean, OpenAI or its competitors. It could be Anthropic or... Yeah, okay, sure, I guess.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah. Whoa, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Like, they're trying to do the frontier model thing. Like, they're on that.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Maybe they're going to train models for a thousand times cheaper than OpenAI. Maybe they're going to go the deep secret.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, that's crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I didn't remember if Mistral was... There's been so many of these companies doing image stuff. I think the image space is even more messed up in my brain. And I thought they maybe were one of the image generating things, but no. I want to talk about the app layer, the AI app space, because that's also kind of top of mind for me. Maybe it's because VCs are excited about it.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
And Mark Andreessen was just on Lex Friedman. And like I said, I've listened to all of his podcasts. I want to talk about my experiences and I want to hear from you how you think about those companies. But first, techno signatures. The main one that we're looking for is chlorofluorocarbons because nature can't create those. That requires... some sophistication technology.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I've been listening to all of Lex's stuff because Prime's going to be on there and I just forgot I liked his podcast. So I was listening to like some of his back catalog and he had Anthropic CEO on was super interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
And like he talked about Earth, we pumped so many in the atmosphere that we blew a hole in the ozone layer and that that would be detectable using the right instruments from far away. That seems pretty solid. I'm increasingly convinced that there's nothing out there, but... Really? Oh, because I'm increasingly convinced. I listen to a lot of sci-fi.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Now I'm increasingly convinced that it's everywhere. It's a dark forest. They're all out there. They're just being quiet. That's how I feel. Tell me why you feel that way. Why do you think there's nothing out there?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, just feel. I guess like, okay, I have a lot of thoughts. First, you just said that and it reminded me that I just heard how things can't travel across space and time faster than the speed of light. according to our understanding of physics. But the actual universe moves faster than the speed of light. So yeah, the galaxies moving apart are moving faster than the speed of light, right?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I guess.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I mean, I'm just making this up. Now you're really losing me.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
between you and me more space it's like we've moved further apart at a certain rate right but we didn't yeah so maybe that's what he's talking about i don't know i i just got ahead of my skis here just even just trying to think about what you're saying but i think what adam frank just said on this podcast was that space time moves faster than the speed of light
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
like the expansion of it, but you can't, an object can't move across space and time faster than the speed of light. But if it is true that the galaxies are moving apart faster than the speed of light, then yeah, you could never get to another galaxy because we can only dream to ever move at the speed of light, which would be a crazy accomplishment.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So, okay, so my stance, I guess, it's that... It's about time. It's not about distance.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Maybe... Yeah, maybe civilizations... And I'm stealing this from all the various science fiction writers and actual scientists that I've listened to in the last year. But... Yeah, maybe it's that like...
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
intelligent uh societies just don't last very long so the chance that overlap is happening like the you know our whatever 100 years 200 years of technological advancement here is just such a tiny little blip in the broader expands to the universe, that the chance of that blip happening at the same time as a bunch of other blips is maybe super low.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
But that maybe life is super common, just not intelligent societies that last long enough. If we can get past... Adam Frank talks about this too. If we could get past all the terrible things that could end our civilization, whether that's nuclear war, climate change, AI, whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
If we get past all those hurdles and we can figure out how to live for hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years as a civilization, then the chances of finding life maybe is more realistic because you're around long enough to see. I don't know. I'm just saying stuff that I don't have any credibility to say.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, it was very illuminating. I'm not going to try and regurgitate it because it won't be as illuminating coming out of my mouth. But you should go listen to it. He's clearly very focused on safety. And it's just fun to listen to people building these things, running companies, building these models, talk about...
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Let's talk about the AI app stuff. So this idea was seated in my head just a few days ago when Andreessen was on Lex and he talked about... I think the example they used was email. AI first email. And how so many apps just have AI bolt-ons now. We have a little button in the corner that's like, ask AI. But...
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
companies that are started with the whole premise of like rethinking the product, the entire category of product with AI first. So he used the example of an AI company building an email client or something, which I've now, I think I've downloaded. I don't know if it's the one that they're invested in, but he kind of threw that out there and just said like all the different categories.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
And then I heard you, did you tweet about this?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Which I will not repeat. Thank you. Okay, that's what it was. Yeah, it was a DM. I knew some other data point hit my brain that was like, oh, the app layer of AI. That's a thing. And it's like when you learn a new word and then you start seeing it everywhere.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So could you tell me with your big brain that you've been thinking about this probably for like 10 years, could you tell me what is going on in the app AI space?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
the risks and like the future and how it could play out because i always hear people talk about ai safety and it's like yeah well i don't know like it's all kind of vague and fuzzy but he like talks about the specific categories of threat that they pose and like how to kind of like mitigate those things it's just super interesting what is one example that you remember because i don't know anything about this
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
That makes so much sense.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Man. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. I've already downloaded Granola now. I feel like this is very exciting as a person who has an entrepreneurial side. It just kind of makes you want to build like a million companies. Not a million. Let's build one. Yeah, just like one company. It just makes you want to build something, doesn't it? It feels like the Wild West.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I was just on the news. I just read about a plane crash, and that's not good. Yeah, I saw it last night, and I'm getting on a plane tomorrow, so really bad timing. Oh, man. Yeah. I guess two things collided in the air. I always worry about that. You always think, like... I don't know. Could something just run into the side of us?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, so he has, like, I can't remember the name of this. I think Anthropic came up with this system for categorizing the different levels of, like, threat that these models pose to society. Or level two is, like, the, like, state actors could use it to further their goals. Level three is, like, normal people could use it to, like, cause harm to humanity.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
It's like starting over. All the digital products we use just could be reimagined. And there's so many categories of those. And it kind of makes you just want to build some of them.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Wait, 2010, what was the new thing that enabled, like, mobile? What are you talking about?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
The stuff that's extra stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, there's like the table stakes part that's kind of boring where you just have to have all the features that people expect from an app like that. in order to unlock the new way of thinking about it. So for the Granola case, it was like they had to build an actual note-taking app and all that comes with it.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
And how did you explain how that dynamic came to be? Because I get it for like recording audio. it just works for everything. But what you're saying, there's this whole era of not integrating directly with stuff. What's that about?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
And level four is that the AI itself, along with humans, is actually a threat. So, like... the AI can take its own actions, even like circumvent things. Like he talked about, they have to worry about, you know, they have these benchmarks or these tests that they do for safety to make sure that the model can't do certain things, like can't tell people how to make smallpox or whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay, that didn't really answer my question. I mean, I don't feel satisfied. Maybe it did, but I think it's like there's another example and I can't remember. I feel like there is another company where it was like, oh, that's a clever way of integrating with everything. Oh no, it was the conversation we had about like an AI tool that just looks at the file system.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Use that as a source of truth and you don't have to integrate with every editor. You just interact with the file system. Yeah, so that's like a very clever way to get around This like this thing on your landing page where you have all the things you support. Yeah. It's like just what's a common denominator.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Oh, yeah. If you're building that kind of stuff, it's scary.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah. So it feels like that should be the ultimate thing. The Apple intelligence kind of thing, like...
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I don't know what they're doing. It's pretty bad. Hopefully they do that thing where they catch up really fast because I would like Apple software to be good because I love their hardware.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Are you quitting terminal? Is that what you're saying? Is it not AI enough for you? It's not AI enough. You missed the meeting yesterday.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
It only would have happened if you started it. But the fact that you didn't start it because you weren't going to make it.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Totally unrelated to AI and apps and aliens.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So they have these tests, but they have to worry at level four that the AI will just like sandbag and pretend that it's not smart enough, even though it is because it knows it wants to pass the test. Yeah. Which is super interesting to think about. What do you do if these models can scale to super intelligence, smarter than us? How do you control something that's smarter than us?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Nope, that's something Korean. That's definitely not it.
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How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
At SST.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
SST dev.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I got it. No, I got it. I don't use my computer. Is it that one? Yeah, so I made a video on my remote dev setup. Oh, I've been wanting this video. I can't believe I didn't see it. How do I not see? This is how big the world is. Anytime you think everyone just sees all your stuff, if anyone sees your videos, I should see your videos.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
right that's true yeah and i didn't know you made this video like are you ever on youtube no no i go to youtube from twitter links that people post would you see it oh because you think i would see i mean sometimes you would think i would see your tweets i don't know that's true i feel like we're friends and i should know when you make a good video that i really want to see and this is one i've wanted you to outline because i didn't want to bug you too much and be like hey could you tell me how you do the remote team bucks thing but now you've just made the video and i can watch it like every other normie this is awesome
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I mean, the thumbnail.
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How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Shout out to ReliableSite.com.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
It's very reliable.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah. The internet kind of sucks. It's kind of amazing, but it also kind of sucks. I'm just reading YouTube comments now. I wish I hadn't. Sorry, would you just not, just don't remind me that YouTube exists and I'll be a happier person.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
It's just super fascinating.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So it's funny. I just saw Kevin Naughton commented an excuse to not do any work for the next three or four weeks. I really do need to spend like two days and just like copy all your NeoVim setup and my NeoVim is so bad right now. I know. I just need to do all that work. And I just, it's so hard to take a time out.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
It's that stupid meme that I do hate because I resonate with it of like the cavemen with like the square wheels. And they're like too busy. Leave me alone. And the guy's like, but here's a wheel. It's that, but it's just so hard. Maybe you should just go use Cursor. You know what? I've actually thought about downloading it. I'm doing it right now. I do want to... I have it downloaded.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, I want to download it. Like, why have I... It's like, all this stuff is free. Paid for by VCs. Why am I not using all of it? Just play around with it.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I don't think it's free.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah. It's the we have cursor at home and it's like cursor at home is like four libraries duct taped together and like socks. Like why am I installing something like that on my machine? What is going on? It's like there's too much. There's too much steps. Too many steps.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
He didn't, no. Yeah, I guess, so what you're saying is, like, how is level three and below anything new to the world? Is it just more efficient? Like, a dumber person could figure out how to make an atomic bomb because AI is so smart?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So they are working on AI stuff then?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Because I just had the thought in my sleep last night, which is just an indictment on my sleep. I had the thought like, oh, poor Zed. How does Zed have a chance when there's all these AI things now? But they're doing the AI thing. It's like there's so many editors already. If you're not an AI editor, good luck.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
actually know like this is going to end up being the thing that wins so to me it's plausible like i don't i don't think they're screwed uh and that they are going to do ai stuff yeah i just didn't even know they were working on if they're working on the ai stuff then yeah good for them and they're not built on i have no idea i don't keep up on this stuff i've just i mean i use neovim because someone said use neovim so i do i mean they say ai in their um
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, all my muscle memory is around like switching between Tmux panes and doing all this stuff. And if I'm just in some editor now, I guess like I can get the Vim experience in the files, the actual files I'm modifying, but like, Okay, can I go back to something just on behalf of the normies that listen to us? Why is VS Code bad again? I know we all hate VS Code, but just someone remind me.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Why is it bad?
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How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So it's slow.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay. I just take everyone's word for it when everyone's like making fun of VS Code. I'm like, yeah, VS Code. But I didn't actually know why.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Oh, I'm going to try Cursor. I'm going to give it a go. I hope it doesn't botch the whole terminal code repo. YOLO.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Ah, just use the integrated terminal. I hear it's good. Skeptical, but. Skeptical. I'm going to give it a shot. I'll let the listeners know if Cursor's good. They probably already know, but I'll let you know.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay, I'll try Zed. If Zed has AI stuff, I'll start there, actually, because I'd rather use the thing that you think is good, generally, in life.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Definitely stuff. Zed. What is it? Zed.dev. The editor for what's next. Humans and AI.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So he speaks to that, like, the world is... The state that it is, it's mostly been safe because the overlap of people who are extremely intelligent and the people who want to do a lot of harm to people is a small overlap.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Tip of the hat to AI. Used by X, Typeform, Midjourney, and Tailwind. That's an interesting collection of companies. You know who else uses it? Terminal. Terminal. We've got to get the Terminal logo on the Bunsite.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Actually, I've been bun-pilled. I'm enjoying bun quite a lot because I just copy everything you do.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
There's nothing better than that. Like a weight dollar sign and then put your shell command in there. That feels so good.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I got to go for non-biological reasons. Okay, no, they're biological.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I gotta go, Dax. When I say I gotta go and you're like, one more thing and then you have like four more things. We could pause if you want to do a two-hour episode.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I want to talk to you. You don't want to talk to me. It's fine. I'm going to pee myself.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Okay, I'm going. Goodbye.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Generally, there's not a lot of people that fit both those things, but the fear is that AI increases that overlap because now you take people who want to do a lot of harm and you give them intelligence they didn't have. I guess that's the vague general idea. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Cause they didn't know we were here and they didn't look at the radar or whatever. Sonar. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
So I remember when North Korea, there was a lot of tension with North Korea and like they were shooting a lot of rockets just to like flex their muscles. And there's a lot of talk about like how soon could North Korea develop nuclear weapons?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Is that not like that's not because they're not smart enough, not smart enough, but like they don't have the knowledge of how to do it or it takes years to develop that technology. Is that not something I could be faster at?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, sure. Okay.
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How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Anyway, that's a damper to start out with. How are you?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, if I'm being honest, I don't really buy all the AI safety talk. Like, it's so hard to know what's just noise. Like, what is just posturing and, like, even competitive. Like, some of these CEOs, there's a bit of, like, pulling the ladder up, right? That's been kind of at least theorized. I don't know if it's been proven.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
But, like, when the people that have the biggest AI companies training the big extensive models are the ones leading the charge on, we need to make this harder. Yeah. I don't know. Is there some other motive involved? But yeah, I guess like and then it seems like the other dialogue, you don't know what like is grounded in reality.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
There's so many people that talk about AI safety that don't seem to have any idea what that looks like. It's like at the government level, like they have no idea. Like nobody has any clue what that practically looks like. So yeah, it just feels like that whole conversation is either not grounded in reality or might have other kind of like hidden agendas behind it. I'm not scared.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I say bring on the AI. It's like if it could solve problems and make things easier, yeah, I feel like if it gives the good guys more tools too.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I guess on the digital front, though, there is a lot of havoc that systems could do, like banking systems. If autonomous AI stuff that had its own agenda... It could cause a lot of problems in the world, even if it's only digital and doesn't have physical form, right?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
a long sleeve long sleeve shirt yeah i went for a walk this morning outside at 5 30 in the morning because it was 50 degrees here which is amazing it's been so cold and it should not be 50 before 6 a.m that's unusual going outside when it's 50 degrees is uh it's really dangerous you should have seen how i was dressed probably lighter than you're dressed right now
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
I listened to another podcast of Lex's with, I think his name was Adam Frank. He's like some kind of a astro something, astrophysicist maybe.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
He looks at space, but he like, he like thinks about his job is like, I guess they just got the first grant for looking for techno... What did he call it? Techno... Signatures? Techno signatures. It's like bio signatures would be like looking at a planet and saying, is there any like... Are there gases that would prove that there's life on this planet?
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
But techno signatures are like, does this prove that there's advanced technology? So they're like actually looking at...
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
exoplanets in the habitable zone or whatever uh and trying to find like signs that they have created technology i can't remember what some of them were a super fascinating guy just go listen to lex podcast what are you doing listen to us just go just listen like the last five episodes are all good i just listened to them all we're just we're now just a podcast that summarizes that other podcast
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
That's probably a thing.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
No. So he did talk about Dyson spheres, which I didn't remember knowing what those were. That's wild. Which I think they proved you can't, they couldn't actually make a Dyson sphere.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yeah, I forgot I knew about it.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Yes. Listen, I don't have a great memory. Okay. And I know I've heard of Dyson spheres, but until I heard him talk about them on this episode, I didn't recall.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
It's like basically this big sphere around your star, around the sun that like all the energy from that sun, which that's another crazy thing that he talks about is like the levels of civilization, the level, whatever they are, the energy output. Yeah. But the technosphere thing, I think the main one they're looking at, what did he say? What did he say? it was not Dyson spheres.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
It was satellites, radio waves. No, it wasn't waves. I don't remember, man. I'm sorry. It would be interesting content and conversation. I just don't remember. Oh, what would you personally look for? Well, let's see. What would I look for? If there was a civilization with technology, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
Oh, yeah. No, this isn't like they have images. He did talk about imaging. This is just... We're going off the rails. I could just talk about different podcast episodes forever. But he did talk about in the next however many hundred years that we'd be able to have Manhattan-size imaging, interstellar view, cities the size of Manhattan.
How About Tomorrow?
How Dangerous Can AI Get, Dax is Down on DeepSeak, and AI First App Development
what did he say, 26 kilometer resolution or something on exoplanets. They have this idea for, it sounds like science fiction for sure. And that's the cool thing about science fiction. That would be crazy. The way it worked is like, you send all these like sensors, cameras, I guess, way away from earth, the opposite direction from the sun.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Wow, that's an accomplishment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I do want to hear that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Guess and check.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Get out of here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Not in reality, but philosophically. Not the people, but the software, yes. Rendered obsolete might be the better phrase. Render it obsolete. I agree with that sentiment because I think – and I haven't had this conversation with them, but to their credit, they probably are operating in a world they have to operate in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
You've chosen to go a different route, which is to innovate on the thing itself to make it a platform versus obfuscate it into something by brute force basically.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I'm glad it doesn't have to be a business. I was worried. I was like, what is the, you know, do you want to build another HashiCorp here? But probably not with this. And I think it's, to zoom out a little bit, I think it's kind of,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
cool of you I suppose to you know some would say well you don't have to do anything Mitchell you can just go and fly as you do right you don't have to satiate any of these technical chops you have or you want to play around in areas you've never had a chance to play around you can just simply just go and do something else but instead you're steeping yourself in an area where you really haven't had a chance to do so and it will be impactful I think the Wikipedia of the future for you will be so cool because you could have had
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
just walk away, do your thing, family, whatever. And congratulations on the recent addition to your family, of course, but you don't have to do this. You want to do this. I mean, it's to me, that's cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Well, friends, this is the last chance you have to get the 8Sleep Pod 4 Ultra in your hands in your bedroom before Christmas. Go to 8sleep.com slash changelog and use the code changelog if you need to to get $350 off your very own Pod 4 Ultra. I've never had better sleep. I love this thing. I sleep on it every single night. My wife and I, we absolutely love what it does for our sleep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
So what exactly is the pod? Imagine a high tech mattress cover that you can easily add to any bed. This isn't just any cover, though. It's packed with sensors, heating and cooling elements. It's all controlled by sophisticated algorithms. And it's all designed to give you better sleep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
It's like having a sleep lab, a smart thermostat, and a personal sleep coach all rolled into a single device and no wearables required. It uses a network of sensors to track a wide variety of biometrics while you sleep, sleep stages, heart rate variability, that's so important, respiratory rate, temperature, and so much more. The best part, it does all this without you having to wear any devices.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Again, no wearables required. And the accuracy rivals what you would get in a professional sleep lab. The pod uses precision temperature control to regulate your body's sleep cycles. It can cool you down to a chilly 55 degrees Fahrenheit or warm you up to 110 Fahrenheit. And it does this separately for each side of the bed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
This means that you and your partner can each have your own ideal sleep temperature going on. And the really, really cool part is the pod uses AI and machine learning to learn how you sleep, to learn your sleep patterns over time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
And it uses this data to automatically adjust the temperature of your bed throughout the night to fine tune how you sleep, to give you more REM sleep, to give you deeper sleep. And that's the part I love most. And all this functionality is accessible through their awesome mobile app. You get detailed sleep analytics, trends over time, and even a daily sleep fitness score.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Again, go to 8sleep.com slash changelog. Use our code changelog. Get $350 off your very own Pod 4 Ultra. Do it now. Sleep well for Christmas. Again, 8sleep.com slash changelog. and also by our friends over at Wix. I've got just 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio, the web platform for freelancers, agencies, and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on Studio.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Number one. Integrate, extend, and write custom scripts in a VS Code-based IDE. Two, leverage zero setup dev, test, and production environments. Three, ship faster with an AI code assistant. And four, work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Wix Studio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Well, my time is up, but the list keeps going on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Very cool. Okay, so experience the magic of Fly and get told the secrets of Fly because that's what they want you to do. They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of the Fly cloud, the cloud for productive developers, the cloud for developers who ship. Learn more and get started for free at fly.io. Again, fly.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself. Go to wix.com slash studio. Once again, wix.com slash studio. Who's the we behind, Ghosty? I know that you are the, obviously, the inceptor of it, but who else? There's a community. How have you leveled up? Who's involved? Roles, responsibilities?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I have to say, I didn't get or somehow miss the email that you invited me personally and Jared, I'm sure, too, into this beta. I went into the Discord like any other community member.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I did. I got you in there, dude. I gave him your handle. Well, I had to, I had to prove the tragic that I was me and that I wasn't just somebody saying, Hey, I'm going to podcast with Mitchell in like 30 minutes. Can you please give me the, I was like, gosh, I haven't installed this thing yet. I should play with it. And, uh, I was like, I, I just gapped getting that invite somehow.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Cause my GitHub is connected to my personal email, not change those email for some reason. And I don't check that as frequently as I do business stuff. So I really should change that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Just to close the loop, I have to share the levels of which I had to... Ensure. Tragic that I was me. Driver's license? This is a DM in Discord.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
hardened to when someone comes and says oh i i know mitchell i need the beta that they're very suspicious so yeah yeah i was like i'm about to plot with mitchell can somebody help me get in the beta please and so i ended up in dm with tragic and he says hey can i get some kind of confirmation here that you're not impersonating anyone felt random if we're actually about to talk to mitchell lol yeah and so i was like okay i opened up the calendar app and screenshot of the calendar
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
invite on my calendar that says we're about to talk. And he's like, hmm, not good enough. Really? Basically. I mean, he did the thinking emoji. He was like, just to be 100% sure, can you follow me on GitHub for like 20 seconds and then unfollow me? Sorry for being excessive. And so I followed Tragic for, and I'm still following him. I'll just go ahead and leave it. No big deal. That's great.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
That's hilarious. So I had to go through a couple of hoops. It's a real insider's club. The hoops will all disappear soon. Well, once I got into GitHub, it said you had the invite there. So I was like, once I was actually there, it was like, hey, by the way, GitHub is telling me this. Mitchell invited you last week. You're an idiot. You didn't have to do all this. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Well, he didn't. They were very nice. Tragic was nice. And that's the loop closed. But the question to get to this point was really, Who's behind Ghosty? I mean, obviously you started it. What's the plan for community? Do you have a governance model? How sophisticated and planned out have you gone with Ghosty?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Makes sense. I mean, so no BDFL, temporarily BDFL.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
What are you doing, dad? Just writing some software over here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
That's cool, man. I like I love that you I mean, to be in a position to take that time, you know, right. I think even if I was in your position because I my brain can't let something go, like even if I don't need to financially gain from it, my brain won't let go of the problem set.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
You know, so I would find that kind of challenging, not so much to not give my necessary time to my child that's newly born, but more so my brain, the separation of that. You can't help that. You can't help how your brain works if you can't let a problem go necessarily. That would be my my fear for me. Like if I was in your position to be like, you know what?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I can't stop my brain from thinking about a problem set.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Ghosty is set to 1.0 this month, so we sit down with him and talk through all the details. A very big thank you to our friends and our partners over at Fly. Yes, Fly is the home of changelog.com. It is the public cloud for developers like us, like you, who ship. And you can learn more at fly.io. Okay, let's go, Steve. What's up, nerds? I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Yeah, I would say ghosty, but I can see why you would say ghost TTY, but that would just, it's like HTTP. Like why complicate things? Well, I have trouble because I speak faster than, I have to slow down to say HTTP. I have to be very intentional to get it right. Otherwise I'm like, it's not good. So why would I say ghost TTY?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
They have those, uh, Even in the web, they have some specific OS sans and monoface.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Can't do that, no. Totally. It's UI-monospace is what you do in the cascade of the CSS font stack.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Not bad ideas, too, I mean, to have a default, you know, string, essentially, you can set that says, give me the OS's native version of the monospace font. Give me that. Right. Yeah. Nice.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
What about things that's as simple as, and I'm going to compare against Warp for now because I use Warp on the daily. And I did sign in. I was not happy about it. You don't have to anymore. But we joined Warp back when you had to. It's too late. It's like the... We're fans of Warp.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
But I'm signed in and I'm me. One thing I do like though is that whenever I... And I'm on a Mac. So whenever I type something out onto the terminal, and if I want to select it to erase it, it's Command-Shift and then the back arrow, like I would in a text editor. Yes. I do like those kind of features. And then when I do that, when I compare the same experience... in ghosty, I can't do that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
It starts typing like these and stuff like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Like different characters. So I don't know if that's like a direct mapping or maybe it's, it's not mature yet enough and it's on your plan, your roadmap, but those kinds of things I think really make that first experience, uh, You know, key that I can just treat the command line like a text editor. That's what I hate about terminal app and other terms.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
You got to like do special things to make it like a text editor where you can jump around the text and do different things to be speedy. And now I'm hitting backspace and stuff like that. And this is not cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
It's a great reason to get Warp to be open source because the user experience with using Warp at the terminal level from an entry level and editing level of what's going into the prompt is bar none. It's solid. I like it. It's fast on that front. It's fun to use.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Well, here's what happened, though. When I fired up Ghosty for the first time and started playing with it, this happened. This scenario where I'm trying to manipulate the text I'm going to enter into the prompt.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
And then I'm like, okay, now I know config is my next step because I got to make Dracula my theme. That's like the first thing I did. I'm like, okay, how do I theme this thing? And so when I Vim and I put the path into the config file and I entered it or I edited it and I saved it, it yelled at me and said it couldn't make the thing. I don't know why.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
So I had to like touch the file first and then go edit it, which is not normal for Vim because you can usually just Vim to a path. And it creates itself.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I think so. I have a config directory, but not a ghosty directory. So maybe it was the ghosty directory not living. So I had to touch it first and then go in and edit with Vim.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
But then I try to, you know, manipulate the text and just try to like mess with it. And I was like, well, now I have to add config. And so I'm back in the documentation trying to think, well, I've got to add my own key mapping so I can have this jumping around. And I imagine that somewhere in the docs I would find it. But, you know, 20 minutes later, we had this phone call.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
So I didn't have enough. You didn't get there yet. I haven't gotten there yet. So here I am ranting. I think this is kind of crucial behavior, though. That's why it's such a simple thing. But I think everyone's going to have a version of my problem. When they first fire it up, they're going to have some version of input manipulation that's very important.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
And it's part of your speed as a developer on the terminal is how you can manipulate what you put in. And that takes time where I have to rejigger my brain or add config, which I don't mind doing. It's just a matter of not knowing what to do out the gate.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I'm sure you do. What's up, friends? I'm here in the breaks with David Hsu, founder and CEO at Retool. If you didn't know, Retool is the fastest way to build internal software. So David, we're here to talk about Retool. I love Retool, you know that. I've been a fan of yours for years, but I'm on the outside and you're clearly on the inside, right? You're on the inside, right? I think so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
The terminal's been played with a little bit recently. You've got Warp. I believe there's Wave. Those are like the two most recent attempts at a terminal of the future, so to speak. You've obviously got Terminal.app, which I watched briefly some of your talk, and you scoffed at the speed of Terminal, Mitchell.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Yeah, I'd say so. Okay, cool. So given that you're on the inside and I'm not on the inside, who is using Retool and why are they using Retool?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Yeah, clearly the front end has gotten complex. No doubt about that. I think even front-enders would agree with that sentiment. then you have back end folks that already have access to everything api keys production database servers whatever but then to just stand up retool to me seems like the next real easy button because you can just remove the entire front end layer complexity
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
You're not trying to take it away. You're just trying to augment it. You're trying to give developers a given interface. That's Retool. Build out your own admin, your own view to a Google sheet or to the production database. All inside Retool. Let Retool be the front end to the already existing back end. Is that about right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Yeah, I think so too. So listeners, Retool is built for scale. It's built for enterprise. It's built for everyone. and Retool is built for developers. That's you. You can self-host it, you can run it in the cloud, get custom SSO, audit logs, SOC 2, Type 2, professional services. Starting with Retool is simple, fast, and of course, it's free if you want to try it right now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
So go to retool.com slash changelog. That's R-E-T-O-O-L dot com slash changelog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Do you pay attention to DHH by any chance?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Well, not so much his voice and his words, but on YouTube, he's given demos of Kamal and other things. And I think you always get to see his terminal and his text editor and stuff like that. And he's done some cool stuff. I haven't paid attention to it deeply. I just know it looks cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I'm not even sure what he's... My back of the brain to do is go investigate what he's doing because it looks cool. Whatever he's using. Is it NeoVim? Is it something else? And what I've seen, too, in screenshots you've shared for Ghost, he looked cool, too. And so I'm just curious because...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
You said the icon is in the beta build, so that means what I have open is the plan to be released version, the icon?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I had to open terminal.app as well just to sort of side by side because I'm like, this looks, you know, as my son would say, we've been here before.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I like it. It's an homage. You can tell it's, you know, darn near the same, except for the thickness of the outside border is a little bit thicker for Ghosty. And the background is bluish instead of blackish.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I've got it open now. The little dots, the little pixels are really cool. Little subtle details. What's the designer's name?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Yeah. I concur with that. Jared was, well, I think you, do you still use Terminal, Jared? I do. Okay, so you can really speak to this well. I'm speaking to you directly. No, I'm happy to hear it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Let's test your config knowledge, Mitchell. I have the config open. I want to bind a key to this quick, what is it called? Quick what? Quick terminal? Quick terminal.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Right. Yeah, I played there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I'm stoked. A new terminal option has arrived. That's right. The terminal option has arrived.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Let's replace the dash with a dot.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
So Ghostie for Christmas 1.0 coming soon, coming this month. But will it arrive before actual Christmas Day? Will it be a present for all of us developers? Maybe the better question is, will it become the terminal of 2025 for most of us? That's the question. I know for me, it needs to have warp-like input into the terminal. I love that about warp personally.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
And I'm sure that Mitchell has great heights that he'll reach with this. Lib ghosty, potentially a shell. Who knows? But I have to have warp-like input into my prompt. I just love that about warp. Okay, go to ghosty.org. That's G-H-O-S-T-T-Y dot O-R-G. But if that site isn't available yet, go to the show notes. We have links there for you. And Ghosty 1.0 is coming soon. Okay, one more note.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
It was so cool to catch up with Mitchell Hashimoto after all these years, after all this accomplishment, to have the history we have with him, to go back to the beginning, before HashiCorp, the start of Vagrant, just the project. And to now see where he's gone and what he's doing now. To me, that's the coolest thing about this podcast. I love that. Okay, last interview show of the year.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Enjoy your holidays. Enjoy your family. Enjoy your time away. Enjoy the hacking you're going to do if your plan is to take some time off and just get some things done. That's fun stuff, hobbies, tinkering, new side projects, whatever. And we'll see you in Zulip throughout the break. Go to changelog.com slash community. Join our Zulip. Chat with us in real time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
There's a lot of people there, and I'm sure you'll dig it. Big thanks to our friends and our partners over at fly.io. We love fly. Give them some love this holiday season. If you're launching a new app or taking some of the production fly.io and to our sleep science experts over at eight sleep with their pod for ultra. I love that thing. It is the coolest thing ever. 8sleep.com slash changelog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Get yours today. $350 off. You can't beat that. And to our friends over at Wix and Wix Studio, wix.com slash studio. And to our friends at Retool, retool.com. We love Retool. It's so cool. And a big thank you to the Beat Freak in Residence Break Master Cylinder. Those beats, bangin', bangin', bangin'. Love you, BMC.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Okay, friends, we'll see you this Friday for the last episode of the year for Cheney Talkin' Friends, bringing you State of the Log 2024. Lots of cool voicemails, lots of cool Breakmaster remixes. And after that, we'll see you in 2025. Thanks for listening.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
You know we love Fly. So, Kurt, I want to talk to you about the magic of the cloud. You have thoughts on this, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
Well, friends, it's the last interview show of the year, and it's a good one. For those who are new, we feature the hackers, the leaders, and those reinventing the terminal. Yes, today we're joined by Mitchell Hashimoto. Mitchell co-founded HashiCorp, took it all the way to IPO, exited in 2023, and now he's working on a terminal emulator called Ghosty.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
What is it that you do to make it fast? Like, where does that begin? When you consider speed and the different paradigms you can consider, what are the permutations of that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
So when you say clouds aren't magic because you're building a public cloud for developers and you go on to explain exactly how it works, what does that mean to you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
I love this idea of the terminals of browser. We kind of touched on this a bit with like two E's before and the text-based interfaces and just the E's of that. So obviously version one is really getting the terminal as it is that goes out there. That version one is out there. Drop-in replacement, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
What I was trying to drive towards was this idea of the terminal as a platform. It's been there. It's been a tool. As Jared said, it's a daily driver for me, for him, and for many other developers out there. But it's not always the platform for which you do things. Vim is a thing, obviously. You've got many of the tools you use on a daily, but I'm thinking like HTOP, stuff like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
We ain't afraid of no Ghostty! (Interview)
In terms of this platform, this 2E platform, are you thinking beyond version 1 as... uh maybe more native ways to do twoies kind of thing what are your thoughts on beyond this this realm
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, the dry consider harmful, maybe that's a clickbaity. Yeah, a little clickbaity. And, you know, I don't think it's actually that harmful. I think the way that it's been dogmatically used is sometimes a little dangerous. But it's just more of a point about how as programmers, we have a bias for abstraction.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
So understanding that we have that bias and trying to keep it in check, especially when it comes to duplication versus encapsulation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
i just think that it's a path that i've gone down too many times of carving out microservices or creating service boundaries where there really shouldn't be or prematurely optimizing when requirements aren't really finalized and you know the requirements are are never finalized and you know just the wrong abstraction at a low level can really cause a lot of issues in terms of refactoring and and just added work down the line
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I don't really know how to get around it. It's just, you know, I keep on falling prey to it over and over again. But maybe that's just kind of the name of the game.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think the distinction that you made that the knowledge shouldn't be duplicated and is not so much about the code. I think that's a really good lesson for me. I try to understand the bias I have for abstraction and, you know, correct against it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
So if that means erring on the side of duplication, then that seems to be kind of the most helpful for me, especially on smaller projects when, you know, it's either just me and a few other devs or just me. Duplication, I think, is fine because the knowledge tax is maybe not as high.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
But on large teams, I think maybe go the extra mile and make sure that you're not repeating yourself because the cost of repeating yourself in that context is maybe much higher.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think a doc string can mean a few different things in different languages. I think for something like Java, you know, maybe it's a little bit more defined, but basically just a comment that describes what the function is actually doing. And maybe that feeds into some sort of language server or automated documentation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And, you know, I wrote this more as kind of like, you know, it should be maybe a you know, yellow flag, maybe not so much a red flag in terms of, you know, when you see this happening. I think that I linked to the Linux kernel documentation, and I think they describe it very well. And they say, you should never really try to explain how your code works in a comment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
It's much better to write the code so that the working is obvious. And you want your comments to tell what your code does, not necessarily how. And I think that's kind of the right way to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
When you're really trying to explain exactly how your code works, then maybe you should refactor it, and maybe that's a sign that other people are really going to have a tough time understanding what's going on, even with a comment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
what it does versus how it does it how often are you personally commenting in your code is it frequent a lot yeah i would say in terms of inline comments inside the function i would say rarely you know unless you're doing something you know really clever where it's not that obvious and you know you can't get any sort of context clues from variable names or control structure
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I think it's pretty rare to see that. I mean, it also depends what kind of program you're writing, right? If you're writing a really low level library, you know, I think it does make sense to be overly verbose.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
But, you know, if you're writing some sort of business logic, I think it maybe makes a little bit more sense to, you know, keep it at the function level or, you know, put it in maybe a different place.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, definitely personal experience here. When I was working on Minikube, a lot of the complexity is around, you know, it's spinning up a single-node Kubernetes distribution
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
on your laptop so not only are you one layer deep with containers you're also another layer deep with the fact that it has to run in a virtual machine on your laptop and so that's windows that's mac os we optionally spin up a vm on linux But I found myself working with some pretty undocumented virtualization libraries on Mac OS.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And, you know, I was starting to think maybe this is not the most maintainable way forward. And so I think that's one piece of personal experience where when it was ugly, it was maybe not the right way to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, this is one that I've found super helpful just because the code can never lie. And the documentation could be out of date. The blog post you're reading could be out of date. The Stack Overflow answer could be out of date. But if you're looking at the right commit, then the code necessarily can't be out of date. I do think that it's maybe a little bit language dependent.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I write a lot of Go. So, you know, there's Go docs, there's the code organization in Go is maybe a little easier to grok than something like JavaScript, where APIs can kind of be all over the place. And you're using libraries that might be nested 10 libraries deep. But for the most part, I've found that just looking at the code is the right way to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yes. Your own other people's? For me, I think it makes the most sense to look at the source code when you're taking a dependency on a library. I think that's the most obvious one for me. Just because you're not accessing an API on HTTP. You're not accessing an RPC. You're actually taking a dependency on some code.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And sure, there might be a documented way that these functions are public and these are the ones you can use. But for the most part, I think once you're at the code level, you should stay at the code level.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
if you're at the binary level if you're at the cli level yeah i think it makes a lot of sense to look up how do i you know cut this clip uh to 30 seconds uh you know that makes sense right right you're not going to look at the you might not even look at the man pages for uh for fm that mpeg on that no i'll just google that immediately and end up on stack overflow yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think that, you know, maybe the Go standard library is a little strong for most people. Maybe it's not at maybe the right level of readability for most projects, depending on what you're doing. But I think, you know, just as a general rule, find the best examples of code and emulate those instead of, you know, I mean, there's, I look at a lot of the code that I've published is open source.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Just because it is, you know, it's kind of half complete. Sometimes it's maybe not using best practices, you know, I'm doing workarounds. And when someone else builds on that foundation in a similar way, you know, I think that doesn't work out too well. So even though there's a lot of terrible code and Kubernetes, and you know, I wrote a lot of it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
there's a lot of great examples of what an API should look like, API versioning, API machinery. And I think those are the examples that you should be looking at, depending on what you're building.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think what I was trying to say there was that
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
all code is terrible to some degree so even if you if you look at a library and say you know oh maybe i could do this better you know sometimes it still makes a lot of sense to take a dependency on that library and use it just because it's been maybe more battle tested it's maybe a time thing in terms of like you know you maybe you could you could write something as good you haven't really tried but is that kind of the the core value that you're trying to drive in in your application
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
or something like that. So I think maybe just don't be afraid to take dependencies. I mean, know what you're getting into to some degree. A lot of the other rules are around not tangling your dependency tree, not taking dependencies on super tiny libraries. But for the most part, I think you have to use other people's code because that's the only way to continue building exciting things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I think a lot of it is context dependent on what you're building. For instance, when I was writing lower level kind of library code, in that sense, I think you want to take as few dependencies as possible just because it can really complicate some of your downstream consumers if they need a dependency on, let's say, like LeftPad or something like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
But if you're, you know, if you're writing more kind of higher level application code, you know, I think you got to ask yourself, what goal, what are you trying to achieve here? You know, if you're working on a startup, I think it makes sense to outsource as much of the non-core value proposition of your application as possible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Sure, you can write your own authentication library, but just look at how many amazing startups have been built on Ruby on Rails, GitHub, Shopify, GitLab, just to show there's a ton of others. But sometimes it makes sense to just use other people's code in that case.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I think it goes back to your earlier point about the cycle of bundling and unbundling as these libraries just grow to accomplish all use cases. As your API needs are much smaller, maybe it makes sense to break out and enroll your own to actually reduce that API surface. And it ends up being actually a more stable and maintainable piece of code.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Maybe a little harsh. I only say it because I was there. I'm still there in a lot of regards.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, so it's basically just like an actual quantitative measure of how many, I guess, independent paths exist in your source code. So think of like control structures. So like if-else statements, how many nested if-else statements are there? How many nested for loops are there? It's something that a lot of static code analyzer tools can tell you. It's not always...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
maybe apples to apples in terms of, oh, this project has a super high cyclomatic complexity, and that means it's a bad project. I think you really need to look at it at a relative term, but it's something good to track with your project. And I know there's a bunch of tools for Go that do this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
just to know if you're introducing some kind of really gnarly control flow in terms of super nested if statements, super nested for loops, et cetera, because the cyclomatic complexity, while it is a kind of a relatively good or bad, it does correspond to the number of test cases you need to cover your code, if you think about it that way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
It pains you to delete the code that you so put so much hard work into writing. I mean, the best code is no code to quote Kelsey Hightower and his no code repo, which contains absolutely no code, but also no bugs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Zero dependencies, easy to deploy, free to deploy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
It's something that's really hard to do, but it's really satisfying when you do it. One kind of example that comes to mind is in the early days of Minikube, we were actually vendoring the entire Kubernetes distribution into the Minikube binary. That meant the kubelet was in there. All of the different components were in there. And maintaining that was a complete nightmare.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Just in terms of we weren't depending on external APIs. We were depending on actual internal APIs that had no sort of guarantee whatsoever. And so once we were able to move over to a different solution, I mean, I probably deleted maybe like 4 million lines of code in one PR. Wow. It was great because our unit test coverage went way up. The tool became much more reliable.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And, you know, we didn't have to spend nearly as much time maintaining all these different patches and in different pieces of code.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
That's true. But I think, you know, even, you know, deleting a package dependency in my mind still counts as deleting a ton of code. I think you can delete. Well, I don't mean to downplay what you did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Exactly. Yeah. It's much easier to delete someone else's code than to delete your own code. Right. But I think, yeah, deleting your own code is definitely much more important.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Well, I mean, you know, just when I think about 10,000 hours, I mean, it's a long time. You know, I think about how long I've been doing this and I've been programming for probably 15 years now. And this is a lot of time to do anything. So
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. I found it very, very difficult to, to delete code, especially when the code's been there a while. It's been battle tested. It represents a lot of toil, you know, maybe it's not that 40 line function. Maybe it's that, you know, 10 line function that you thought was really clever. And, you know, it spent hours figuring out the algorithm too. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
just to figure out that, you know, maybe it should be replaced with something else or something much simpler. Maybe it should be replaced with the 40 line function.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Exactly. Exactly. So that's tough, but it's just so necessary.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I've had tons of failures along the way, learned a ton of things, and I've been trying to blog more and write down these ideas so that I don't keep on making the same mistakes over and over again. So it's a lot for me as well.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. And something that I think about a lot with the monorepo versus microservices debate, not to even get into that, but It's really hard to know where these API boundaries are going to exist, especially early on when you're first coding your app. And I think as programmers, again, I think we want to split everything up. Every kind of the user service has its own file.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
The other service has its own file. But I think a lot of times we maybe prematurely code split, and that causes a lot of issues just down the line in terms of versioning things and Releasing things that actually need to be versioned together. And I think if you find yourself in that situation, maybe kind of roll it back up in some regard.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Maybe it's not microservices versus monorepos, but maybe it's just something as putting things in the same package or putting things in the same file.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I think cyclic dependencies as well. I think it could put you in, in let's say like a go package or something like that. If you over code split, but you're actually not respecting the underlying dependencies of how the code is actually flowing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
then you can get yourself in kind of a bad spot where package A depends on package B or maybe a diamond dependency problem where package A depends on B and C, but then B and C also depend on D. And I mean, you just get yourself into all sorts of package hell depending on what level you're working at. So I think it has kind of real ramifications for oversplitting or
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, unfortunately, that's why I called it reflections on programming, not maybe lessons.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, I think the only lesson is that Definitely. At least personally, I have a bias for naming variables as short as possible. And that is probably one of the most unhelpful things you can do to your teammates and, and to your feature self.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Exactly. Like single letter, sometimes two or three letters. And honestly, that's, that's not super helpful. At least I found you're saving a few spaces, but you're not really, it's like the, the old adage is like, uh, debugged for six hours and, you know, I could have saved myself, you know, 10 minutes of reading the man page or something like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
No, I do the math and, you know, I spent a lot of time in open source as well. So it's like, it's not even a nine to five, it's like a six to 12 or, you know, whatever. I mean, it's an all day thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe there's a, there's a little confusion because, uh, error is the interface that it implements. So, you know, maybe there's a little ambiguity there, even though it is case sensitive, I think, but yeah, I totally agree. I think. when there's convention and you use convention, you know, stick to that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
If you were to say E instead of ERR, maybe that's a little wrong, you know, because you're not sticking to convention and you're shortening it a little bit too much.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. So, you know, just been programming a bunch, programmed a bunch in school. after college worked in New York for a bit as a programmer, came out to the West coast here to work at Google and worked on open source. I worked on Kubernetes and kind of specifically a bunch of sub projects in Kubernetes. So was a maintainer of Minikube, kind of the local development environment for Kubernetes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think of it as almost like kind of continuous learning. And, you know, we can learn so much from these different kind of sub communities, especially as what it means to be a software developer means just so much. Now, you could be a front end developer, you could be a back end developer, you could be a data analyst, data engineer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I mean, there's just so much that goes into actually writing code. I think tangible examples are backend engineers can learn a lot about UI and UX from frontend engineers, especially what it means to make a user-friendly CLI or user-friendly error messages. I think sometimes backend engineers over-index on complexity and maybe not thinking of the user. In a lot of cases, it's another developer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
It's one of those things where there's just so much we can learn by looking at these different sub-communities. So it's something that I try to keep an open mind to.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think your example from Dan is amazing. I think it's just like ideas like that that can kind of pop up in a lot of different places and you can look at it and say, oh my God, this would be amazing for the project or the part of the stack that I'm working on. And, you know, I just think there's so much cross-pollination that can still happen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
scaffold which is kind of a kubernetes tool to help you build and deploy your apps and then kubeflow which is a machine learning kind of toolkit on top of kubernetes as well in addition to that like i've just been kind of hacking on all sorts of open source projects i wrote this configuration language virgo which is kind of for it's you can think of it as like if yaml was for
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And it's just such low-hanging fruit in terms of how we can push all this technology forward.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
kind of graph-based configuration instead of more hierarchical. And then, you know, built a computer vision bot for RuneScape, which was just a game that I used to play as a kid. Nice. A ton. And, you know, learned a lot about programming through that just because, you know, I was always too lazy to mine the rocks or click the buttons all day. And just like tons of projects like that. Awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I mean, thanks for having me. I had such a blast and I've been such a longtime listener. So it's fun to be on the podcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, you've probably never heard of it because I, you know, I try to come up with it myself. I try to coin the term. So, you know, it's a new thing. But it's me trying to describe a pattern that I've seen in kind of software configuration.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Where configuration seems to evolve through specific increasing levels of flexibility and complexity before returning to either hard-coded values or bash. So you go from like hard-coded values, which are the easiest, the simplest configuration, but provide very little flexibility.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And as the program surface starts to increase and with that configuration, you know, you start to incorporate environment variables. flags and eventually you want to start to check that into version control. You turn it into a configuration file, maybe YAML, JSON, something like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Then as you turn on this heptagon of configuration, and I only called it heptagon just because a lot of the ideas came from Kubernetes and Kubernetes logo has got the seven points and just worked out well. But as you're going from configuration files, You start to need a little bit more extensibility in terms of
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Templating, and I think templating is something that we're all unfortunately accustomed to a little bit too much. So that's kind of one wheel on the configuration, Heptagonic configuration. And then from templating, you go to kind of a DSL, a domain-specific language, and that allows you to have a little more type safety and a little more domain-specific reusable modules.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And I'm sure some of us have used Puppet in the DevOps world, or there's tons of other DSLs out there. But eventually these DSLs become a little too inflexible. Maybe the requirements change, the domain changes, and then we go back to Bash. So that's kind of like this never-ending cycle of configuration that I've seen. And, you know, I saw this a lot in Kubernetes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
There was a lot of Bash in Kubernetes and a lot of configuration. Maybe we skip the DSL part and, you know, maybe that's more of kind of a configuration as code or something like Pulumi. But, you know, maybe we'll go back to hard-coded values at some point.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
That's a really good question. I don't know if it's either. I think it's just necessary complexity. And I think it's important to know maybe where you are on the spectrum. Because I do think that you need to, you can't necessarily jump from something like hard-coded variables or environmental variables to going to a DSL. I've never really seen that work out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
So I think you do need to increase the complexity, but in a way that that complexity can be absorbed by the projects or the developers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great point. And I think we're seeing that play out in the data stack a bit with a lot of old ideas around tooling around data warehouses. And now that we have cloud data warehouses, you have Snowflake, BigQuery, Redshift, et cetera. We're bringing back a lot of those old ideas, things like OLAP cubes there, you know, there's analogs to that now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And just, it seems kind of like more of the same, but it's really different once you start to look under the surface.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Mm-hmm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
The claw.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It's kind of like a real-time forum in a way. You know, like when I'm on chat.zulub.org, it's got the feels of a forum and the feels of a real-time chat kind of combined into one, which is kind of nice because there's, you know, in forums, you often are threaded conversations. They're obviously topic-based, but they're not real-time generally, to my knowledge. I mean, I haven't been on a forum...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Why add tracing to the platform? Why tracing and why now?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
and like active i suppose since the where's days of my life but you know i'm on forums here and there i think there's some obvious ones out there but it's not active in them i'm very active in slacks multiple slacks not just our own and really no discords at all for me so my only really experience is like older hip chat days obviously campfire And then obviously now modern application.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
A little bit, you know, a little bit. Honestly, I just, it was like, I wasn't quite hacker then as much as I am now. So I didn't quite get into IRC. I tried. I was, but just not like steeped. Sure. Like real-time chat is. But this is kind of cool because it's kind of like a forum and a real-time chat all built into one. And it doesn't feel overwhelming.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Like you see this stream of content coming past you. I think... There's some psychological things that happen in real-time chat applications these days that you feel like you have to keep up or there's just a stream of data. It doesn't feel burdening thus far.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
How do I get back there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, I've gotten a couple of those emails and they are scary to see. I was actually a little nervous because I was trying to quickly as this topic came up in this conversation to find that message because I do recall them saying recently to us that there's some updates required by September or something like that. And like,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
final notices for x and i'm like like you jared i who cares in a way but then i'm like maybe i do care you know maybe i might care right now like they don't care until you do care right you're like oh no it was in the slack and then it's gone now and you're like yeah Yeah, I don't know. Do you know much about that, Alia?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Like what the current state of Slack's... I imagine you're probably leveraging it in some way, shape, or form. If you're not leveraging it, you're getting the inbound of it, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Yeah, I found the email that was scary. This was sent on June 24th. It says free workspace content older than one year will be deleted. And then I won't read it all, of course, but it says this policy will begin taking effect. Get this, Jared. August 26th. Ooh. It is as ago. The 28th. Yeah. So as of this recording, we're recording on August 28th. They're deleting our stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
But it does say workspaces will be notified prior to the policy impacting that workspace. So we do have time. They haven't rolled it out yet. And it says your workspace is on a free Slack plan because... Alia, we are a community. We've been sort of hamstrung, I suppose, by Slack. We've always been dumbfounded that they would never have changed their tune towards communities.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And we have several communities in our sidebar that I'm a part of, and I'm sure, Jared, you're a part of some that I'm not. But there's relationships in business. There's partners who are in their channels or vice versa. And it always seemed like, what's the line from Goodfellas, Jared? Maybe it was one of the Godfather movies. I don't know. Which one? It was basically Pay Me. Oh, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
You know what I'm getting at here. Yeah, yeah. It's a PG show here. That's how I've always felt about Slack. It's just not a great company. And I'm all for companies being ambitious and enterprise-focused and all that good stuff. I'm not at all against that. But I was always confused.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
by their seemingly inability to see the goldmine of community that had leveraged Slack in its free tier to not find a way to make them pay in some way that wasn't thousands and thousands. It only seemed to be optimized for the large enterprises only, not for the smaller communities at all.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I love it. Okay, so they mean it when they say code breaks. Fix it faster with Sentry. More than 100,000 growing teams use Sentry to find problems fast, and you can too. Learn more at Sentry.io. That's S-E-N-T-R-Y.io. And use our code CHANGELOG. Get $100 off the team plan. That's almost four months free for you to try out Sentry. Once again, Sentry.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Okay, friends, I'm here in the breaks with Annie Sexton over at Fly. Annie, you know we use Fly here at Change. We love Fly. It is such an awesome platform and we love building on it. But for those who don't know much about Fly, what's special about building on Fly?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
So we use Tigress here at ChangeLog. Are they built on top of Fly? Is this one of those examples of being able to build on Fly?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Very cool. Thanks, Annie. So, Fly has everything you need. Over 3 million applications, including ours here at ChangeLog, multiple applications, have launched on Fly. Boosted by global anti-cast load balancing, zero configuration private networking, hardware isolation, instant WireGuard VPN connections, push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. It's all there for you right now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Deploy your app in five minutes. Go to fly.io. Again, fly.io. And by our friends over at Paragon, useparagon.com. Check them out. Ship every SaaS integration your users need. With more than 100-plus pre-built connectors, you can add dozens of integrations to your app quickly and reliably. with their embedded iPaaS for developers. And I'm here with co-founder and CEO, Brandon Fu.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
So Brandon, talk to me about the friction developers feel with integrations, SSO, dealing with rate limits, retries, auth, all the things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Okay. Paragon is built for product management. It's built for engineering. It's built for everybody. Ship hundreds of native integrations into your SaaS application in days. Or build your own custom connector with any API. Learn more at useparagon.com slash changelog. Again, useparagon.com slash changelog. That's U-S-E-P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com slash changelog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What's up, friends? This is The Change Log. We feature the hackers, the leaders, and those taking on Goliath. a.k.a. Slack and Teams. Yes, we're joined by Ali Abbott, one of the fine folks behind Zolip.com, the open source, organized team chat for distributed teams of all sizes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It is hard to compete against free, especially when the Goliath is giving it away for free.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Yeah, it's unfortunate, especially you would think as a user, like you said, nobody got fired for buying IBM. I didn't make that up, but I don't disagree with it to some degree. Except for what if you're missing out on what is free and open source, but you can also pay for it. when the Zulip name isn't as polished as maybe Microsoft, obviously.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
You know, that's the hard part is that you kind of have to win them with showing up, you know, with the open sourceness of what you're doing, the way you've been in the trenches with the communities, the way you've sponsored things, not just simply the larger brand name and the The literal freeness that you can get with Teams.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Now I know that at certain points organizations have to pay for Teams, but it's pretty much free for the entrants. And then you pay once you're literally locked in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Through the tea leaves or something.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
That's one thing I really wish we had in our Slack, Jared, is that we have people come and they share things they should not, a.k.a. spam. Yes. And I would just like to be able to eventually boot them because... I delete the message and I look at them and I'm like, well, you're clearly not here for the reasons everyone else is here for. You violated the code of conduct intended for this place.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
There's no way for us in our current state to enforce these kind of things aside from just deleting messages. Sure, we could probably log into Slack and delete their user, but that doesn't stop them from coming back. I'm not sure if any platform can really do that to prevent somebody from recreating a new account or whatever.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
But I do wish we had some moderation tools where I'm sure even the community inside of our Slack would step up and say, you know what, I'll help you guys because it's 2 a.m. and you're sleeping and I'm not because I'm in a different country. And if I see a spam message, it doesn't have to sit there for eight hours until the morning or whatever time it is.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
When we look at Slack again, it's like, well, hey, this thing has been sitting there with people piling on or looking at it or clicking it. And we can't do that stuff. So I wouldn't mind having some moderation tools.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Yeah. Some sort of pattern match, I guess. Oh, yeah. Known. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't happen often. We get some spam here and there. And mostly, I get it. Go join a Slack or find a place to belong and share your messages. And you do that with enough numbers, you'll get people... I get it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It's a numbers game, but it doesn't make any sense to me because you're not really getting the long-term benefit you actually want for a brand. And so it's such a nasty thing, really. And like I said, it doesn't happen too often, but often enough where I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't mind some tooling. What would a migration look like?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
That's the, it's 90% of my anxiety. If we're hypothetically speaking about things. Yes, we are. Is I feel like I'm just, I've been like in this waiting pattern in my own brain. You know, I haven't taken any action. I've been like just thinking that maybe Slack would someday get it and somehow just recognize that there's so many communities that have, you know, built up their thing around them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And that many of us in even developer land or just let's just say tech land have, you
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
numerous logos slash icons in our Slack sidebar so we bounce from one workspace to another and I like that I don't want to be in a world where I can't where I have to like still I guess keep Slack or I just like the unification of it and as a user I don't want to have to go to the Slack app and then the Zulip app and then the whatever app I would just like a unification if it was possible I'm sure it is I think there are some out there but there's diminishing returns
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
My point is that I've been just anxious about what it would take to literally migrate if ever we actually had to because we got 7,000-ish people in our main channel. Not all of them are obviously present and active every day. I'm sure some of them come and go. Maybe some of them lurk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I have no idea because I don't really have any analytics to our usage in terms of just beyond messages I'm paying attention to. So, I just wonder if we moved to something else, how much would we lose? How hard would it be to get even our active people to stay involved?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I did find a repo, and I know that you may not be able to go deep on this if you can, it's okay, is on your Zulip org on GitHub. It's docker-zulip. So I assume this is official. It's container configurations, images, etc. for all of it. There's a Docker-composed file there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
So, you know, tread softly, but officially. 102 lines in this compose file. I mean, that's a lot of lines. So you've got SSL certificates set up for folks. You can set up a custom CA certificate if you want to. You can point to a different Git repo. So you can point to the official or you can have your own fork, which I think is pretty cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And you're just a dark compose up away from running Zulu locally.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, see now, that's a great question, obviously. But now you have to be your own uptime for your own chat apps. That's the high price of self-hosted. That is the high price of self-hosted. I would want to compare Zulip Cloud and other ways first, but I'm not against the idea of self-hosting. I just think it takes a lot of responsibility to do so. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I assume, how then, maybe you answered this already and I was reading docs or the doc compose file while you said it, and if I missed it, I'm sorry. No worries. But how does your iOS, Android app work with a self-hosted scenario? Do you point it at... Like a URL kind of thing? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
So self-hosting, yeah, I mean, you would have to have, even if it was like literally self-hosting in a closet or self-hosting on DigitalOcean, Render, those are two that are mentioned in your docs. We obviously prefer Fly, fly.io. Not paid to say that, but just definitely very passionate. So I guess we can self-host on fly, right, Jared? Like we wouldn't have to self-host anywhere.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I just thought it'd be cool to run out of your closet. It would be cool. Except for, I think, I don't know if the uptime would be as good. I mean, the ping, the latency, Gerhard may have opinions about it. That's for sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Self-contained Zulip, and I guess local area network only, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Very generous to open source it though. Yeah. Right. And all the history that's like kind of unheard of when you say, and then like be disconnected completely, like no back link or connection to it. Just like be free bird, go fly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Not very useful that way, but you could do it. Via the terminal. The terminal app even.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What's up, friends? I'm here with Kyle Carberry, CTO at Coder.com. So, Kyle, I've known Coder as the IDE in the cloud. And over time, you've iterated to become a fully open source cloud development environment, a CDE. How do you explain what Coder is and what it does?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Okay, so what are teams coming to you for? Who's coming to you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Let's laser focus in on the platform engineer. It is that team's job to provide the best infrastructure, the best platform for their given applications, for their teams. What are some signs or signals for platform engineers to think about when it might be time to consider a cloud development environment like Coder.com?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, it might be time to consider a cloud development environment. And open source is awesome, and Coder is fully open source. You can go to Coder.com, get a demo, or try it right now, or even start a 30-day trial of Coder Enterprise. Once again, Coder.com, that's C-O-D-E-R.com, Coder.com. Well, there's a terminal app. I haven't seen visuals of this yet. How cool is this terminal app?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
There you go. Okay. Terminal beta. Cool. It's very TUI-like, Jared. Obviously.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What I'm seeing on the side, though, if I can talk through it a little bit and see if you're following me, Jared, is that it seems like you've got the channels, of course, and it seems like those are topics beneath it, potentially. Obviously, it's not as full-featured as an actual web UI or an application UI. Do you find that people actually use this terminal app a lot?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Is it one of the primary client set that you have in your stats? What do you think the usage might be?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And we're going through all the things, open source, its origins, what makes it different, why it might be better, how you can self-host it, how you can use their cloud, how you can contribute, how you can be part of their community, all the things in this show. A massive thank you to our friends and our partners over at Fly.io. That is the home of changelog.com.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Has she answered your question, Tara? Yeah. Okay. What's stopping you from, or have you considered, raising funds? I know you had grants in the past, but I'm not sure... What your angle is, I mean, there's obviously this idea of commercial open source companies out there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
We're very anti rug pull, not cool here around these parts, which means don't change your license once you've gotten to critical mass because it's against your future business objectives. Hopefully I paraphrased that well enough for you, Jared. I think there's an opportunity. I'm just curious. Have you? Why haven't you? What's the status on that front?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What if that's not true?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
All of it. What if there are venture capitalists that align with open source, which is becoming a thing? What if there are venture capitalists that see your idea as the way and they want to fund companies that have prived by cold at hands aspects to open source? Would your tune change?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I think the reason why I come with those questions is less to challenge you by any means. It's like zero about challenging.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It's more like if Zulip is the best and it is open source and it is superior in so many ways, in so many models even, of how you can use the software, not just in your cloud or in the self-hosted version, the exporting, the non-fettered access to it to be able to move and all those things, if it's superior...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I would want to, if it were me, I would want to do all I could to ensure everyone could use it more. And the way you get there is generally the reason why people raise money is not because they literally just want money. It's because they can leverage that money as a resource to go faster to the roadmap. And we talked earlier about Flutter. We talked earlier about some different areas.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And maybe you're slow and steady, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. I just wonder if a little funding that was in alignment with your morals, values, etc., towards open source, the way you run your company... if that money didn't challenge those values, if things would change.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Because if you truly are better, and we've seen even in our own Slack, a person say infinitely better than X, you know, so we hear that ourselves even, if that's truth, then I would want to do all I could to get that truth to many people.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Just to add on to what you're saying here, Jared, I think probably without digging into the data, I will hypothesize that probably the biggest challenge first is awareness that you exist. And then obviously once they realize you exist, the opportunity for superior feature sets exists. Then I would say that the very next thing is like, okay, now what?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Which is our requests for information on hypothetically what it would take to move, what it would take to go from a Slack or a Discord. I feel like if you could do content
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
around that subject not just documentation like how to but like good stories of folks who've moved and their journey and to demystify the scares and concerns like my main scare is is that a proper adjective i don't know i'll allow it is that or i guess anxiety point is is will we lose the people that we have in our community will they will they bounce you know if you can showcase the what's on the other side of the of the wall rather than me assume
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
As somebody who is not happily but happily using Slack, given the things we've already said, still like Slack. It's still amazing. It's just they've got warts for people like us, communities like us. I feel like that's the content I would personally, I would look at the data, and I think that would be the hypothesis.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Get awareness, show off the amazing feature set that really captures 80% of who likes you most, and then show how easy it is to move. And almost make it like, you should be doing this. Like, it should happen today. We can help you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And if there's money to invest, in quotes, money to invest, could be time, could be people, could be people hours, is to guide and assist certain organizations on that path.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
If I had to divide my time up into fifths, I'd take two-fifths of that time and dedicate it to that kind of content, if not more. Because fourths is like whatever, you know, like 25%, 25%. I mean, that's pretty easy, like one-fourth. I feel like two-fifths sounds better to me. Two-fifths of my time would be focused on awareness and showing off the better world, the FOMO. You're missing out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
On freedom, control, access, enjoyment. Privacy. And then obviously your dev team and engineering teams can be focused on all the surface area, Flutter, that migration, finishing out those applications, polishing the peripherals.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What is next for you, the listener? Are you going to go to Zulip.com? Got the dot com. It's a big deal. It is a dot com. It is a big deal. It's a five-letter dot com. Free, open source, cloud, or self-host, unfettered. Do it today.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It's almost too easy, Adam. It's almost too easy. Yeah, I feel like we should try Cloud out first. And if we like how it feels... Take the next step.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
That's half the battle, right? Because sometimes that switching of the UI and everything, it can be jarring. The ideas and the features that may be there, but maybe it feels weird. I don't know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, very cool. Well, thank you for this time. Thank you for going through all the details with us. It was awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
In a world where open source is eating software faster than software is eating the world, there's Zulip, the open source chat that has the potential to unseat the giants, to at least unseat the giants based upon features that really matter to users. And the thing is, is that they have so much potential. What exactly is potential? Potential is kinetic energy stored waiting to be released.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And after this conversation, I'm so hopeful for the team at Zulip. But at the same time, I know it's kinetic stored energy potential not realized. Now, there are a lot of people who love Zulip and there are a lot of people who don't even use Zulip or even know about Zulip. But now you do. So what are you going to do?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, I say go to Zulup.com, check it out, try it out, self-host it, use their cloud, contribute, be a part of the community, all the things that open source provides. Now, I, for one, am very hopeful and very happy Zulup exists. But Microsoft, Slack, Salesforce, they're massive. And so they need us to step in, to use, to try, to contribute all the things. Well, make sure you check them out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Zulip.com. And all it was inspired by this conversation to create a brand new guide called Moving to Zulip. And that'll be linked up in the show notes for you. Okay. Sponsors for today. Big thanks to Century. Century.io. Use our code CHANGELOG to get three months, almost four months of the team plan for free. Again, Century.io. And the code is CHANGELOG. And also to our friends at Fly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
We love Fly. Fly.io. It is a platform where you can do pretty much anything. And Tigris is one example of that. Check them out at TigrisData.com. We're using it, and we love it. And to our friends at Paragon, UseParagon.com. All these SaaS integrations you need for your B2B SaaS. Again, useparagon.com. And to our friends over at Coder, coder.com. Cloud development uncompromised.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
They're the number one self-hosted cloud development environment out there. I checked it out. I think it's so awesome what Coder can do. Check them out, coder.com. And of course, the beat freak in residence, Break Master Cylinder. Bringing those beats every single week. Much love, BMC. Much love. Okay, so no bonus today, but I do want to mention, because, hey, why not?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
changelog.com slash plus plus. It's better. It is better. Today, it's not better because there's no bonus, but hey, other week's Other shows, bonuses galore for our plus plus subscribers. That is where you go to get the ad free version of our show. The way to directly support us to get closer to that cool change law metal, get bonus content. Not this week, but hey, you know, next week.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And I know because we recorded next week's show today and we have a very lengthy, very awesome bonus content for you. You'll love it if you're a subscriber. Once again, changelog.com slash plus plus. Okay, that's it. This show's done. Thank you for tuning in and we will see you on Friday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly. We're one of them, and we love Fly, and you will love Fly too. Check them out at Fly.io. Okay, let's do it. Hey friends, I'm here with Dave Rosenthal, CTO of Sentry. So Dave, I know lots of developers know about Sentry, know about the platform, because hey, we use Sentry and we love Sentry. And I know tracing is one of the next big frontiers for Sentry.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I'm looking at the screenshot on your homepage, which I assume is up to date. Is it up to date?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Pretty accurate?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Okay, cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Yeah, where would I go to do that real quick? Because I was trying to open that conversation, like get into the actual UI.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I just, I do like it. So I'm going to paint a verbal picture of this visual I'm looking at. So channels on the left, topics to the right of me. Here I am. I'm just stuck in the middle with us. Stuck in the middle, you know. Nice. Well played. Great song, by the way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I like when you click on a channel, you see these topics, and then if you click on show all topics, you obviously get into a channel view with all the topics in it that you can filter and scroll, and you can easily go back to channels. I'm not signed in, so I can't see how I start new ones, but it does seem pretty snappy in terms of just how easily you can map around.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I just wonder if it's overhead on anybody's part to organize messages online. organized topics because you can. That's what I was trying to figure out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Like it's, it's my repo places where I do open sources, where I do proprietary code is where these potentially sensitive items could be, you know, it could be accidentally committing an API key. And then now I'm, you know, that's terrible. Don't do that. But then also like whatever else I've connected to my GitHub account might somehow be able to access it too, if there's a flaw in the system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Let me log out and see what happens, what it actually accesses, because I just personally find that screen a little overwhelming. Every time I see it, I'm like, okay, this is a lot of stuff. Okay, so now I'm actually on this page that says Authorize Tailscale. And at the very top, it says Tailscale by Tailscale. This wants to access your Atomstack account.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
it's existing accesses, read org and team membership and read org projects. So I'm like, okay, why do you need to have, like, if you just want to off me to tail scale, why do you need to list my team memberships, my org projects? Like, why do you even need to know anything about my GitHub database basically?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
All right. Tail scale fix this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Access user email addresses read-only. So if I have multiple email addresses in my GitHub account, it's like, well, okay, maybe.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And then organization access. And it checks every single org. Every single org. And I can't uncheck it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
That's a flow. Like, that's common for everything. It's not just TaylorSkills. Every time I go to some sort of GitHub auth, it's giving me organizational access that I can't revoke. And all I want to do is auth.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It might be the GitHub API too. You know, that's just how it works.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
For sure. Ask for more than you need. Come back later. Never. Right. I always felt like GitHub Auth was... It felt... Anything I authorized with GitHub, it always felt like whatever was being asked of the authorization process was more than I thought was necessary in the authorization process.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
But Tailscale requires you to use an auth provider or some sort of SSO because it hinges your Tailnet upon that username and how you authenticate it. So in that case, that's where I had to. So I'm by force of SSO with GitHub or like you had said with cow.com, for example, like that totally makes sense. I'm cool with it there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
In almost every case, my default is I'm going to email authenticate and password authenticate by default because that's what makes the most sense to me as a user because I don't want to ever think like, how did I off to this? And then I go back to the thing and I'm like, I think this actually happened with Neon when we first set up Neon. Their original flow, I believe, only had SSO
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And then when I went back again, it had email. I'm like, okay, my default is email because that's how I do it. And I couldn't log in. I'm like, well, what happened to my Neon account here? I'm like, okay, now I can't get in. Oh, yeah, I must have authed with GitHub because that's how it originally was, you know, six months ago when they first wrote it off. But I'm with you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
You know, I think that you ask for too much. The flow is weird. I prefer just to know my email. If it's a work account, it's a work email. If it's personal, it's a personal email. And I keep those words very, there's a lot of people who have one email inbox for all their life. And I'm like, how do you do that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
How do you, I may not be an inbox zero guy, but I'm a definitely a segregated and separated inbox based upon, you know, disciplines in life or categories in life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I feel like it's the email of the internet in so far as that good luck erasing the protocol email from just the way humans do internet. Totally. I say humans because we now have non-humans doing internet.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
But certainly bolsters the, I would say the new trend over the last, I don't know, is it new if it's past five years? I don't think so, but it's newer. Okay. I would say over the last five years you've got like Work OS, you've got obviously Fusion Auth, you've got Auth0, and I'm sure there's like at least one other major, major brand that I'm totally forgetting right now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
There's not a cottage industry of startups that are well-funded, probably even well ARR'd and doing well.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Point is, is that now it's so complex to do off that we now need to off load it to a paid service in order to even get it right. or to avoid from having our developers waste time building something that's been built and can be serviceable or turn into a service. And then it makes more sense to buy it versus build it. And mainly it's not because they couldn't build it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It's like, why would you build it? And then the ongoing security issues Security concerns around off now get offloaded, handled by a third party, hopefully in quotes, trusted or well-trusted, you know, and now we've got different places you can get attacked. Thankfully, those players have done pretty well. I don't know. It just seems like now we've got such a complicated situation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
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The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
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The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
They deliver durable execution and abstracts away the complexity of building scalable distributed systems and lets you focus on what matters, delivering reliable systems that are faster. An example of this is Masari. They are the Bloomberg for crypto.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
They provide market intelligence products to help investors navigate digital assets, and they recently turned to Temporal to help them improve the reliability of their data ingestion pipeline. This pipeline collects massive amounts of data from various sources, and then they enrich it with AI.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
This process previously relied heavily on cron jobs and background jobs and cues, and the design worked well. However, these jobs were difficult to debug at scale because they needed more controls and more observability. And as they looked to rethink this ingestion flow, they wanted to avoid cron jobs, background jobs, cues.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
They didn't want to create a custom orchestration system to oversee and to ensure these jobs and work was being done reliably. Here's a quote. End quote. So if you're ready to build invincible applications and you're ready to learn why companies like Netflix, DoorDash and Stripe trust Temporal as their secure and scalable way to build and innovate, go to Temporal.io. Once again, Temporal.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
You can try their cloud for free or get started with open source. Once again, Temporal.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It's like a constantly rotated password really, right? Like the OTP is constantly like, it's like you set the password every single time and you email it to them and it's time-based. So it's like, that is a cool method.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And if you're dyslexic like I am sometimes I read it backwards. I will misremember. I like I will literally read it and have to say one six zero five eight zero like whatever. Right. And I feel like that's also an attack vector because like maybe it's somebody sitting next to me and I'm like lightly whispering this password that is only on my screen. 1-6-0-5-8-0. I don't know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I always feel concerned about that. If I'm alone, it's just my pup with me, my dog, then I'm cool with it, right? But if I'm at Starbucks or coffee shop, then you could be trying to get me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Man, I'm so glad to be back. I love this show. It's so awesome to be part of it. You know, all those things. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Recovered from your flu? It's all gone, you know? NAC. Gotta take the NAC. I know what that means. Well, if you're a weirdo, you would know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Did you see my title change?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I think it's mainly, it's less about the protocol and what the attempt is. It's more the seemingly rogue implementation every single time I experience a Passkey scenario. I also find that services are defaulting to Passkeys And it like bothers me when I want to be a email password person. It's constantly just slapped me in the face. Like, where's your pass key?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And I'm like, nah, man, I'm doing email and password. Okay. And it just seems like always want to default to this thing. Adobe does it. I sign into the document cloud a lot for like different agreements and stuff like that. So I'm in there doing stuff frequently and I like to log into the actual online service. And so I'm logging into Adobe's web services frequently and they that's their flow.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And I'm cool with Passkeys. I actually like them, except for I think the flow and the way the UX is still implemented seems to be just not the same across the board, whereas email password is pretty much the same across the board. I feel like that's the holdback for me. And whenever I don't want to be Passkey first, that I want to do email password or just anything else,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
That service is sort of like force feeding me pass keys. And I'm like, you know, nah, man, email password. Okay. Now I do use one password though, as a, to just identify my stack. So unlike Jared, Apple, simple, free, you know, with it kind of thing. And I don't think that's not his only reason for using it. I know Jared well enough. He likes to keep his stack simple.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
You don't have to have other extra services if he doesn't want to kind of thing. And I think that's cool. That's how they use it. That's cool. I use 1Password for a lot more than passwords. Like I've got secure notes in there. I've got like, I mean, I don't want to tell everybody what is my attack vector.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It would be really bad. It would be really bad if 1Password was not a good long-term security solution and they were attacked on my behalf. I use it for more than passwords.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It's an acronym, obviously, and I cannot pronounce it, but it's... So there's a lot of speculation in the medical industry because there's a lot of suppression of what will actually heal you and what will not actually heal you. And so NAC is an acronym. I think it stands for...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I sure hope so. Like I'm, I'm, I'm long on what it can offer, but I think that, let me try to define some of the other user flows that have bugged me. And I'm, I think I'm a pretty patient user because I get it. I'm in this space. I'm not your typical user where I understand where the technology is going. I understand the benefits of pass keys. I understand the implementation for the most part.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And so I get it. But when it ends up happening is, is because it's potentially a newer, potentially more secure way to authenticate with a service, they're injecting it where normally it would just be email password and I would not have any other interruptions in my flows with authenticating.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And so now it's like, well, after I've authenticated with username and password, they're like, hey, do you want to store a passkey? No, I just want to go through the door and shop.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
yeah don't ask me do i and don't be secretive about it and and say do you want to authorize next time with your fingerprint or your face id like they hide it or they masquerade it as this not pass keys for me that's not masquerading that's actually promoting it in a way that's a of a benefit to you because don't you want to wouldn't you rather just face id in than your name password
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I don't think so. No, I'm explicit. It's back to that potentially with, and maybe this is where my psychology is with this or the way I'm thinking of it is, is because I don't want to think about how did I authenticate with the service. And maybe next time it's just so automated. Because the way 1Password works, the way Apple Passwords works, maybe I won't care.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
But something in me says, no, Adam, the way you authenticate is this way, and you've got to keep it the one way. Versus, like, sprinkle your SSOs around, and then also your potential email and passwords. So I'm like, nah, you know, I'll just keep it the way I want to keep it, and stop bothering me about Paskies. I will say...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
to caveat all this, is just to give fodder for a conversation because I truly am enjoying it insofar as that I've enabled Passkey's usage on my Adobe login. The flow is kind of weird though, because I will authenticate with the Passkey, but there's not a good feedback loop. You can't see a spinner.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
You have to know it's going to authenticate because if you click that, you basically wait two and a half seconds. In my case, it's about two and a half seconds. Then I'm in. It's not a lot of user experience visually to say the passkey is being exchanged, something's happening here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And so I do authenticate that way, and it is pretty magical that I just click one link or just one interaction essentially, and I'm in. But it's about three-ish seconds later, roughly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
to try honestly but it replenishes your glutathione it's it like zaps a virus pretty quickly okay it's it supports immune health essentially got you so this is a shot you take is this food is it minerals it's a versions of that yeah it's like uh it's a pill you know uh similar to like maybe like magnesium might be like in terms of pill form like that size it's pretty big But it zaps a cold.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I don't know. I feel like my email password logins have been pretty fast. I will say that 2FA, MFA scenarios slow it down a little bit. So one thing I like about 1Password is that it allows you to 2FA, OTP, MFA inside of your 1Password. So you can actually let 1Password do that coding, I suppose, like getting those codes back and forth.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
and it automates it in its autofill process too, so it's pretty quick to my knowledge. There's times when it's slower. The other cool thing I like about that flow Not that it's better than pass keys. I feel like you're going to always have every way to log in. That's why I feel like fusion off has such a long game here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Cause I mean like you're never not going to have one of these other scenarios, isn't it? There, there probably isn't a silver bullet because you always have all the ways, you know, essentially. But if you have a shared one password record, let's just say, so if you have a multi-user one password, uh, org or an account and you have a password or an authentication, it's shared with somebody else, uh,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It could be to a shared email even, too. So email password is now shared between two users, but that 2FA, MFA, OTP code that manifests on a cycle is inside of 1Password and accessible to all the users of 1Password. This is probably the same with Bitwarden and others, too. I'm sure it's a common user experience, but the cool thing is that even with that
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
multi-factor authentication scenario, you have this shared truth, this shared source of truth that allows you to authenticate even with these other security measures like OTPs, 2FA, MFA.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I have a really hard time getting access to my own 1Password, okay? To add 1Password onto a new device, it's not easy. It actually makes you think quite a bit. It goes against everything Steve Krug said way, way, way back in the day with user experiences. Like, don't make me think. Like, no, they're making you think. I think it's by design.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Like, it's really hard to authenticate a new device and sometimes even into itself. Like, the password itself can be very long. It can obviously be if you're on a new Mac kind of thing, you can do your Touch ID into it, which I love. I mean, I think just Touch ID authentication, one password to me is like the way. I mean, every Linux user bowed down to the way it's just now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I mean, like maybe you could do that on Windows and Linux, but I just experienced it again today. And I'm like, this is the way. Okay. Everyone else has just like lost in comparison to Mac OS's abilities to do this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Uh, let's see. How worried am I on this? You want to do a scale of one to 10?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Okay. Now that you've said this, thank you very much. I guess my concern is elevated. And I think it goes back to the level of trust that I give to 1Password or whatever supplants it in the future, if that's ever a case. I think it concerns me in this conversation that it's true that I have a large footprint, a large attack vector in one service.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
That being said, I've had many conversations with the people behind 1Password, and even a trusted security professional that's a close friend of ours love their protocols. I'm speaking of Firas, Jared, back in the day when he was doing wormhole and all that stuff, he was really praising their security measures. That being said, obviously anything is attackable and you can get past it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
So, yeah. Now you know. Reduce inflammation. Zap your cold. Support your immune health. NAC. Check it out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
So I think I put a lot of faith in 1Password security measures, really. And I just hope that in the future my bet on that security measure remains valid and true. And if they ever get attacked... Ad nauseum, I guess I'm just screwed. I don't know. I guess at that point, I'm not that worried about it, honestly. So... Five, maybe. Five. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I think they should be scrutinized. I think we should hold them. No, I do. I really do. And I think they actually... I think they welcome it. Because, like, if you're in security and you are that kind of attack vector, you should 100%...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
desire scrutiny not because you're scrutinizable because you should be you're a security place with so much wealth of knowledge on people you should be scrutinized and they should welcome it in my opinion well i'm wondering what a good multi-factor auth segregation would look like in terms of you're trying to sign into your bank you're on your phone
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Yeah. Well, you can enforce it with like weird passwords, length, which I think is always... Good and bad. I've experienced where I'm like, OK, for example, my my Traeger smoker, I can put it on my Wi-Fi and there's an app that lets me control it from far away. Well, apparently it can't do a Wi-Fi pass with this longer than 30 characters. And so obviously my.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
My Wi-Fi password is probably like at least 32. I think it might be 64, honestly, because I'm crazy. I don't give it out. I will hand type, and my wife hates it. It's not 64 characters, but it's probably 32, and it's a mess. I'm not saying it's the best solution ever, but my trigger will not do it. So it enforces this limit there. That's not actually a password. It's like acceptance of a password.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
But there's other scenarios where you try to, you know, Redo your password or something like that. And then when you go to that flow, it yells at you. Oh, not only did you not have this special character and the uppercase and lowercase and whatever, you know, you've got to meet these criteria.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And some of them are just like, wow, they don't tell you like the UX of that flow is like kind of strange.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Until you're done.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
What's up friends. I'm going to give you a peep behind the scenes here. We love notion here, change the law. We use it so extensively. We do a lot of stuff externally from our internal core team, and we have to organize a lot of stuff, a lot of workflows, a lot of statuses, a lot of writing, a lot of informing and notion is just so infinitely flexible for us.
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Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I'm creating workflows, standard operating procedures basically. And it's just such a cool thing to build. a workflow, a way of doing things inside of Notion. And now they have Notion AI and it's saving us so much time. I'm writing with it, I'm finding things with it, I'm summarizing things with it. I don't have to kind of think, where is this in my massive Notion workspace?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
or many team spaces that we have. I just Notion AI it and it comes up. It's so cool. And if you're uninitiated, you may know Notion. I'm pretty sure you know Notion, but they combine docs, notes, projects, all into a single space that you can design yourself. And it's beautifully designed, mobile, desktop, the web, shareable on the web. It's just so powerful.
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Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I bet it did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It is your one place for your team to connect with your tools, your knowledge, and you're empowered to do your most meaningful work. And unlike other tools out there that make you bounce from one thing to the next to the next, Notion is seamlessly integrated, infinitely flexible, And it's beautiful and easy to use. So Notion AI helps us work faster. We're writing better, thinking bigger.
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Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
We're doing tasks that normally take hours and we're doing those things in minutes, sometimes even seconds. And yes, we're not a Fortune 500 company, but Notion is used by over half of Fortune 500 companies and teams that use Notion like us, send less emails, they cancel more meetings, they save time searching for their work.
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Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
and they reduce their spending on tools, which helps everyone stay on the same page. So try Notion for free today when you go to notion.com slash changelog. That's all lowercase letters, notion.com slash changelog, and try the powerful, easy-to-use Notion AI today. And when you use our link, of course, you are supporting this podcast, which you love, and we love that too.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
So notion.com slash changelog. So here's a... I'm not sure this is a hot take, but I would say this is a take. Let's just say this is a lukewarm take. I feel like password managers or some sort of password management, and maybe Apple solved this to some degree, is the new SSL.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And the fact that we had Let's Encrypt happen more than a decade ago, and now a large part of the internet is now encrypted, right? Because of all their efforts with Let's Encrypt. I feel like...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Passwords are so crucial and there's only so many more users of software and you go and find any given person that is just accessing web services in normal humanity, just normal life, 50, 100 services or more, right? Like it's just so many. And the fact that I'm surprised that 1Password doesn't have a free tier because you would think that would be a phenomenal attractor.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And the fact that Apple has already done it in replicating most of the goodness of password management, not so much other things like identity and SSH keys you can put in 1Password, lots of cool stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
But I feel like password managers or password management is the new SSL and the fact that we just have to have the best, everybody uses it, free-ish way or a freely accessible way to so many people because there's so many people who just like literally write down their passwords or have the same exact password across every possible service ever. And I won't name any names because I know a few.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
just don't i don't say whatever the basics man just just you up just password management it would be great uh doesn't have to be the otp you know 2fa kind of integration the one patch just let me let the world have access to what i would maybe i don't even agree with this like email password login is probably not going to go anywhere except for on channel.com like you're gonna like that's still there in a way like you still have email in the flow you've got this magic link flow
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And so I don't ever concern myself with change log in for myself with that because I don't need to store it. There's nothing to store. But insofar that so many services out there never get rid of it, just having basic email password, secure ways to not have the same password across all the different ways. I feel like the world needs a version of that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And it's totally, you know, maybe to Apple's credit, it's an operating system level, potentially concern or leadership concern in the fact that they've done seemingly the impossible, which is give it to, I mean, that's free, right? Jared, you're not paying for that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I don't believe there's a free one in Windows. What I can tell you is the user experience. Dan, are you a Windows user?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
So I recently installed Windows 11 as an example. So I've been exploring behind the scenes this idea of a creator PC. I like to build machines, but then the operating system I'm going to put on there and do all this work is Windows. And that's just like the sadness of my life. I would never want to do that. And I know that because I literally went down the road.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I'm like, hey, it's been a decade or more since I've even played with Windows. Aside from somebody saying, hey, you're an IT. Can you help me with this problem? I'm like, sure, I'll look at your Windows. I have no idea what I'm even clicking on here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And I install Windows, and I'm just so sad for Microsoft that they can't get that right. They have the largest installable base of a computer user on the planet, and that's their best effort. I'm just sad for them. It's a mess. They installed so many softwares that are just not necessary, and it's just disgusting. Maybe it's their fault. Maybe it's not their fault.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I feel like they can solve the problem. They're not solving the problem. But, you know, they're not. I don't believe there's a default free password manager in Windows. I Googled it. PCMag disagrees. They say that there's other ones. So they haven't selected like this default installed for Windows. But. You know, somebody's got to do this, and who's going to lead that effort?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It can't be 1Password because they're a service. They're a software company trying to make money. I mean, I think giving away 1Password for free is not very smart, although it could be, you know, the Xerox of 1Password, or I guess the Xerox of password managers is that they could give it away for free to everybody to a certain limit and attract a lot of people.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And they're already on all the platforms, so maybe that's a good way for them, but there is no let's encrypt for password managers out there where it's just free to everyone and accessible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I mean, if you want to call Microsoft Authenticate, I'm looking at it. Baseline. It's the, it is a line beneath the base. I don't think that, I mean, given their prowess on the compute platform across the globe, Apple is the best effort. And I would not consider that an effort.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Well, friends, before the show, I'm here with my good friend David Shu over at Retool. Now, David, I've known about Retool for a very long time. You've been working with us for many, many years. And speaking of many, many years, Brex is one of your oldest customers. You've been in business almost seven years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Yeah. So you have these services like Azure, and then those services have what? Users. What are those users running? iOS or Android? I think a lot of them are running Windows. I don't think so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I mean, okay, you talk to a gaming PC person, a gamer, large, I mean, huge community. Gamers are huge communities. Steam is on Linux now, man. Let's go. I mean, maybe it's diversifying, but still, by and large, they're building Windows-based PCs, sometimes very reluctantly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Like I said, I think, so my argument is more so less like a direct comparison to Let's Encrypt, but more so the fact that the security of email password login for many, many people is paramount. And there's nothing out there like Let's Encrypt that's freely available to everyone. And that's what I mean by that. I think that if we had that...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
That was like one unified brand, one unified application like Let's Encrypt is. It's a single unified brand to say SSL for everybody. If we had a version of that for email and password, I think we would have a better, a more secure world.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Maybe not so much less breaches, but certainly less people who have the same password across 17 services or just some layer above current state of art for security for everyday users.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I mean, I don't disagree that a lot of people, a large majority of people consider computers or today's modern computer being a mobile device. It could even be as far as an iPad. I similar to this conversation with Dan and the fact that email password login will be around for the foreseeable future. I feel like some version of the desktop will be around for the foreseeable future.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
It is the platform where you have control of the compute, control of the operating system. You know this, Jared, you're a developer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
That was over the top, Jared. I missed that movie. That was a good, I mean, the way he, I mean, so many people try to replicate. We've got to get this on the screen. I mean, he would be arm wrestling them and then he would just do this movement and then take them down. He would just like curl his wrist a certain way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Yeah. We should do a survey. And maybe our audience is not the best audience, but I don't know who else we would survey besides our audience. It's like, are you using a password manager? We should survey someone else's audience. Gosh. I mean, like, I really want to know this because I feel like when I talk to everyday folks, if I even mention one password, like, what is that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And that's a failure on 1Password's part, in my opinion. I'm not their marketing department. I'm not even their leadership. But I think if you're running 1Password, you want everyday users to recognize who you are because there's only so many, as Jared's saying, there's only so many truck drivers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
For sure. Yeah. Because you get everybody on the same platform. You get a unified source of truth. I'm not selling it. But I mean, all the reasons why you choose it is is is really good. Well, you know. It's a hard fight here, you know? It's a hard fight. Your lukewarm take, though, is interesting. All right, good. I feel like Linux, Windows, and macOS still matter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Let's be clear, I don't mind it. I don't know, you seemed pretty upset earlier. I think the screen presented is a little overreaching, and I think it's overwhelmingly confusing. Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough. I don't mind it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
So you think that we're wrong because we don't offer email password as a base.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Well, to be clear, Dan is a former listener, now guest. He's been on twice, but he's listened to the show prior to being a guest.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
He's in that bucket he's claiming. Go on, Dan. We're done joking.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
not offering it and i've definitely been turned off of places that didn't well it's funny that you say that with the google account i didn't really consider it that i guess in this whole conversation because i don't like think like others too frequently about this i'm not an auth provider i'm not a product manager for fusion so i'm not thinking about the way the product gets implemented
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
But I bet there's a lot of people out there who's like, you know what, Adam, you're an idiot the whole time you're having this conversation. I'm listening, but I love to hang every authentication off of my Google account because they are my password manager. because I know how to get there. And it's literally 1Password to get into Gmail or whatever they're choosing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And they're effectively this free authentication provider or free 1Password manager or free password manager because they've logged into their email and everything is hinged off of SSO. And it's almost like, hey, if you don't offer SSO with Google, then I don't even want to consider your service. Maybe there's people out there like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And that maybe is the free version of it that's available to everyone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
There is no one way to log in, basically, Jared. That's the thing I think we can bet on in 2025 and beyond is that there is no one way, unless you make only one way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Oh man. I'm rewatching that. That's on my list now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Thanks. All right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I think they've been a customer of yours for almost all those seven years to my knowledge. But share the story. What do you do for Brex? How does Brex leverage Retool? And why have they stayed with you all these years?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
So you expired after a bit, then you expired after the first click. Is that the common case?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
That makes sense.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Very much so, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
Cal.com right I'm going to sign in with my Google account because that's where our calendar is it has to have it anyways but other than those things like I just want to enter my email address and Adam you're the same way even so like even with the GitHub whenever you get to that second stage where it says this is what it's accessing I feel like that's just such a weird like if you're listening to GitHub that's a bad page like it needs to it's always overwhelming and confusing and I feel like I have no control over what I can and cannot share right just off
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
You can see it, but you can't control it. It's overwhelming. All orgs, read-writes, all this access, it feels very thick. I use Tailscale, and that uses GitHub for a good reason. I use GitHub as my... I don't know what they call it, actually, what their terminology is, but it's not built on my Google SSO. It's built on a GitHub SSO, so it's built on that auth, and...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
I don't know how to describe it. Like the, the whole entire tail net is built on my GitHub auth account essentially. Right. So that makes sense. And giving it access to things might make sense, but at the same time it's accessing zero repos. It's literally just my network. It's not GitHub related at all.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Over the top auth strategies (Friends)
And it's, it's a, it's a little annoying honestly, because now you have access to something else that, You know, it could be your code. It could be different things that matter to you and you've forgotten what you've given it access to. And it's like, why murky those waters?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Have you heard about this? I saw him post on Macedon about someone using his voice, but I didn't read it. Okay. Is that what you're going to talk about? I'm going to reference it at least. I'm going to lightly talk about it. Let me see if I can pull up the information quick enough. Jeff Geerling, for those who don't know, is a home labber YouTube. What's his particular... He's a YouTuber.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
He's been on the pod.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I would call him a home labber. What's his... His channel's more about hardware and stuff, though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I mean, I know how it works technically. I don't know how it works in the way that you're talking about it. All I know is somebody's going to put out there and finish that song Nick Nisi started. That's right. In the Nick voice. Mm-hmm. Just the falsetto, the Prince falsetto.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That sounds like a corporate advertisement.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And that's cool. I prefer to just hand the guitar to the robot and say, will you play Kiss by Prince so I can sing this falsetto? Like that's when it's really here. It's like you go to a restaurant. And it's advertised, you know, maybe there's even a $5 cover at the door. Live music tonight. McNeesy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And you go to this restaurant and you sit down and you look up on stage and there's nobody on stage. Just a couple of laptops. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
cool laptops talking to each other and they're they're hardwired into different instruments and those they just start playing songs you know taking requests and then get down on one knee and somebody and sing right in their face i don't know it's gonna be weird it's getting weird i would watch that for sure yeah i would probably watch that too that's the problem is we're so easy we're like this is dangerous and crazy and it's like but i would totally participate
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
You know, aren't we just kind of along for the ride this whole way? That's the problem, right? How can we stop it?
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Yeah, I don't really believe anything he says.
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It's like Elon Musk and then we'll be self-driving by 18 months from now. Totally. And he's completely invested in that being true. Yes. And so highly motivated to say it's going to be true pretty soon. Yes.
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You can't move around. You can't go down or sideways. It's gotta be up. You can't stagnate. You have to be more valuable, higher up.
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There's other ways to find Zen.
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There's many roads to Rome. He could do it in his spare time for free. He could brush his teeth a lot. Just take the thing off, brush his teeth, put it back on. You'd have the cleanest teeth in the world.
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That's more like flossing, isn't it? I mean, TypeScript is always going the extra mile, is it not?
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You must like typing. Not types, but like literally.
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Because you type a whole bunch more than I do. And we accomplish the same thing. Just with regular JavaScript over here. Correct?
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Oh, I don't do that part.
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Yeah. Fix type errors. How am I going to know about them?
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Well, wait till I get it on my hands and start showing you cool stuff it's doing for a few months.
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That's all you're going to say.
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We don't mess around. And we ate steak together at, where were we? That conference. That conf. You went to that conf in Wisconsin, didn't you, Nick?
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I never understood the term eavesdropping because this is more like eaves picking stuff up.
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It was Danny, right? Danny Thompson. We interviewed him on stage. Yes. And then that was that. That was that. So he gave it to you just because you're friends with us, basically?
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Yeah, I feel like at this point, shipping that show is probably not going to happen.
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So you're dropping stuff off the eave? Maybe that's why it's like they drop it and you pick it up. I don't know. It's a weird word. Eavesdropping.
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Let's listen back to it and we'll see if we actually like it. Because sometimes we listen back and we're like, that was better than I thought. Other times we listen back and we're like, that was worse than I thought. Yeah.
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Oh, man, that was a great episode, actually. It came down to the final question, and nobody could get it. And I think the final answer was something hilarious like... It was. Thunderbird, I think. Thunderbird. Like, the final answer was Thunderbird. The male client, Thunderbird. Yeah, the male client. And, I mean, the crowd went crazy. I thought, this is an award-winning episode of Front End Feud.
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Not J.S. Danger, Front End Feud. Which is our Family Feud style, not our Jeopardy style game. And then I went to the... Well, now we're going to start. Maybe we should stop here because we're going to start complaining. No, no, no.
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No, I went up to the guys afterwards and I'm like, the guys who are running the AV right there. Like, that was so awesome. Can't wait to turn it into an episode. He goes, oh, you wanted to record that? And I was like, you got to be kidding me. Yeah, like there was a big plan. We're podcasters. Always be recording. That's our whole thing. ABR. ABR, man.
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VIM is totally worth it though.
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Yeah, they had something last week, wasn't it?
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Spill the beans.
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Yeah, it was through Firebase.
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Agreed. I still use Brave as my better Chromium for now. Brave Browser is just what it is. It's basically rip out the Google parts.
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None of that stuff is on by default. There's a VPN button that I don't use. There's crypto things that I don't use. I do think the idea of the bat token was interesting, but you don't have to use any of that. And it's just like Chrome minus the Google bits. And honestly, I use it for Riverside and for development. And that's it.
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So you have to use Chrome by dictate. He's nodded his head, by the way.
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And then he said yes. That was a dramatic pause for our listener, but not for us as we saw you nod your head. And he smiled while doing it, too. Affirmation. Is the browser company... VC-backed. Gosh, I don't know. What's that website that's like TechCrunch, but it's just for CrunchBase? CrunchBase. Is that where you would find that information?
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Google's also correct. I Googled that. CrunchBase also seems to confirm it.
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Which means it's pretty reliable, right? Unless two are using the one source and they're just, which they probably are. Crunchbase is probably the source and Google and ChatGPT are probably scraping that. ChatGPT gives links to Reddit and TechCrunch. Okay, well Crunchbase and TechCrunch are like the same people, I think. Could be wrong about that. So that gives me pause in general with browsers.
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I'm going to stick with Safari until Lady Bird can be used as my daily driver, and I'll probably switch to Lady Bird as, well, even if it can be my development, and I'll swap Brave for Lady Bird and then eventually, hopefully, Safari for Lady Bird.
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But I think if I'm going to have a large corporate entity that either is VC-backed or publicly traded or whatever, I'm just going to stick with Apple because I feel like their incentives for now are pretty well aligned with mine as a customer of theirs. And, you know, the browser company, I appreciate that they're out there innovating and trying to do new stuff.
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But for me personally, I just feel like there's so many pressures on a company like that when things aren't going hockey stick in the way they have to, that there's incentives to compromise my side of the equation for theirs.
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So Nick had the eaves down. That was exactly what the reference is. I thought it was maybe the female rapper from the late 90s, Eve. Do a rap. Do a rap. I'm down. Well, when Eve would drop things, she was also eavesdropping. She was dropping. She would drop bars, though, not raindrops.
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There's a subscription model here? Is that what you're saying?
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You can't think of Eve? No. She's quite a bit more hardcore than Enya. And so far, she's an actual rapper, and Enya's more of a, what's her genre? See here, I thought you were talking about Eve from the Bible.
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Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm not seeing is like, where is the business model here? Yeah. And when you don't see one and you see $50 million plus raised and you see them going for it's free, free, free, free, I just think the long-term ramifications of all those things usually end poorly for the end user. And so that's why I'm skeptical. But I would love for them to have a pay plan right now.
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And maybe they've talked about it and it's just not out there. They're going to do that with Macs.
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Oh, did you?
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Does she turn the lights off and light some incense and say?
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Well, let me use this opportunity to mention a tool that I found called Enchanted. Enchanted is an iOS and macOS app for chatting with private, self-hosted language models such as Lama 2, 3.1 as well. Mistral by Kuna using Ollama. And so this is open source. I've been using it for a while. It's unified chat. Switch your model up in the corner.
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I don't know it actually has a chat GPT option where you can just put in your OpenAI API key because it's all about the open source side of things. But That's a good one. Well written. I've been using it. I enjoy it. And so check that out unless you are ChatGPT for life because it is O-Lama based. It looks really good. And I think Lama 3 is good enough that...
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I only use ChatGPT now on my phone because I don't have this on my phone. So I'll go to this and it answers, I would say, nine out of ten things sufficiently. The other time I'll use ChatGPT in the browser is when I want to use the Dolly features and generate images.
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Oh. Mm-hmm.
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But for just asking my computer questions, it's a pretty good option, which I think is probably similar to what you're thinking of with this breakout chat app for computers. Raycast. For sure. So that's a cool one.
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Permissive, I think.
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You just download it. What do you do to get access to it? You have to have a token. Is that right? No. So this is like an interface for Ollama. And Ollama is a open source project that will run these different LLMs that you have the models downloaded on your machine. And so if you look at the repo for Enchanted, it'll say things like, you must have Ollama running first.
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And so there's a little bit to do there. It doesn't actually embed or download the models for you. So Ollama is really cool as well. So you're running Ollama as like a home lab thing then?
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It's a single machine home lab. It's my work computer. It's my only computer. I'm running it here on my laptop. And so there's, I can't remember how I installed Ollama. Probably brew install Ollama. Brew install, yeah. And then I pick Mistral 3.1 latest. Or sorry, Llama 3.1 latest, not Mistral. in enchanted and llama is running. Oh, llama is running as a service on my laptop.
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When's the last time you karaoke, Nick?
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That starts when my laptop starts. And so enchanted talks to that backend.
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Tell him your favorite song, Nick.
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Jared, if you didn't know, I didn't know that.
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I was using it from the command line at the time.
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Just talking into my command line. I can't remember if I had a tool for that or if Olamar provides a command line UI. Oh, I think I found a TUI. Oh, yeah. I'm going to quote you. You mind? Oh, cool. Yeah, I like this.
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I know his favorite song. It's Prince. Don't, don't. Let him say it. Okay, go ahead, Nick.
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Yeah. If you go to the Enchanted settings, the first thing it asks you for is an Olamo server URI. So you can definitely run it on the network and connect to a beefier machine or something that you have right now. Now you're home labbing. Now you're self-hosting. You transcended the singular machine and you went straight on home lab. That's right. And you can probably post it.
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You know, you could probably have a fly server out there or digital ocean. Get it. You know, preach brother run EC2 instance and run it there. And then no EC2. I'm just kidding. I'm just hating a little bit.
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You have past success. I mean, look at the old DigitalOcean box that you set up.
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Yeah, man. Load up Ubuntu on a machine, get a VPS, load up Ubuntu, install some stuff on it, expose a port and an IP, and start connecting your stuff to that. That's it, huh? It's so easy, Nick could do it. Okay. He needs to.
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What have you hosted, Nick, historically?
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Running Apache or Nginx or what?
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That's funny. Did you know that I once set up my own little intrusion detection system on a WordPress install using Git and a shell script? I didn't want it to change. unless I change it, right? And so I had WordPress installed and I just initialized a Git repository on all the PHP files and then initial commit. And then I assumed that none of these files are going to change.
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And so I wrote a shell script that basically ran git status. And if it had any modified files, it would email me. Like, hey, there's a file here that's changed. That's awesome. And that was pretty eye-opening. Because WordPress sites get files changed arbitrarily or seemingly arbitrarily more often than you would want them to. You know, oh, there's a new file here or something.
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Of course, you have to ignore certain directories like caches and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it was like a little intrusion detection, like the dumbest one you could possibly do because I didn't know how to run IDSs and stuff. That's clever. It worked. Yeah.
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The problem with that and with every intrusion detection system is false positives where it's like it detects something and you're like, oh, that makes sense. And then you try to, and then it's like my only tool is get ignore. Whereas if you have smarter tools, you can obviously fingerprint much better and say like this part of a file makes sense to change or whatever, whatever.
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It was dumb, like literally a dumb solution, but good enough for what I needed at the time.
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Yeah. Oh, I'm stoked. We did. Yeah, we launched something on the 25th of September. And yeah, you can use System Initiative now by going to a website and signing up and three clicks and you're in. And then you can automate infrastructure. It's sick. It's the coolest thing in the universe. I'm so proud of it.
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Yeah. I mean, that's what I hope is true. Okay. Yeah. I think, look, here's what it is. Basically, we figured out that part of the reason that it's so hard for us to achieve the outcomes we're looking to achieve with the kind of DevOps and operational work that we do is because the tools we're using sort of help bring about those tough outcomes. It's a lot harder to like.
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write static code, have your friends review it. In System Initiative, what you do is you use this living architecture diagram to put together all the different relationships between the things that you use. And then you can program that architecture diagram to do all the stuff you need it to do.
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So it automatically understands how to do things like create resources and delete them or update their tags or do those things. But then you can also extend it with your own custom policy. And the whole thing happens in real time in multiplayer Let's say you're going to like build some infrastructure. You've got to go, you know, use an AWS account. You're going to launch a new service.
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So you've got to go set up all the different pieces, the VPCs and the EKS clusters and, you know, ECS and database services. And you've got to set up IAM rules. There's all this stuff you've got to do. With system initiative, what will happen is you'll sign up, you'll get this workspace, and then you'll have this list of all the different architecture assets that AWS provides.
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And what you'll do is throw those things into this big diagram in the center of the screen, which is basically this living architecture diagram. And then you'll connect them together, just like you would if you were drawing an architecture. And what it's doing when you do that is actually writing the code to describe how these things work. And it's running it as a simulation.
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So it's telling you in real time, this would work or this wouldn't. So you don't have to wait. There's no long feedback loops. We actually vet all of that infrastructure and all that architecture in advance. You can say, hey, this looks good. It's what I want to see in the real world.
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And you can apply that change set and it's keeping track of all the different things you have to do to actually go make that infrastructure real. And then it goes and does it. And then after it does, it keeps track of those things, too. So you can see both sides. You can see the real thing in the world.
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that is what you created and it's and it's attached to the model of what you thought you wanted and then you can use that to manage it over time and then when you have customizations or tweaks or things you need to build for yourself you can go write that directly into the system in real time in these same kind of change sets that you use to do the infrastructure and so that's what it's like to use system initiative it's it's the most powerful intuitive collaborative way to do this work that's ever existed
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Nick mentioned WordPress.
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Oh, shoot. Are we violating trademark if we do that? I think we might get a cease and desist, honestly. Let's just call it WP. Okay, WP. All right, so I was driving this engine. Let's just call it WP Engine. And I won't tell you what open source software I was running.
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Okay, so for those who don't know, there's a lot going on between some large players in the WordPress community, the largest probably two players, one being Matt Mullenweg, creator of WordPress and owner of Automatic, which is a company that capitalizes WordPress through hosting, and WP Engine, which is another company that capitalizes WordPress through hosting.
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both of which have contributed to the open source WordPress project, lovingly hosted at WordPress.org. But from what I can tell, not to an extent that Matt Mullenweg is happy with on WP Engine's behalf. So Matt started this project brouhaha by calling out WP Engine at WordCamp US 2024. Guys, hop in here and correct anything I'm saying that's wrong.
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Like I couldn't possibly embarrass myself more than I already have karaoke. So yeah, that's true. I'll just go on a podcast.
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I'm not hopping in because it's all correct so far. Great job. Keep going. I'm really just trying to summarize what I know. We are not WordPress community members. We are very much just watching. We know Matt. We've had him on the show once or twice, but we don't know him very well. I don't know anybody at WP Engine. Very much just reporting the news that we've read.
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So Matt called out them for two reasons, one of which is that they agreed to contribute more. They agreed to contribute, I guess, at a pace that was somewhat equivalent to automatic, and then they didn't. This is Matt Mullenbeck's report, not mine. And then the second reason is that they change core functionality of WordPress when they host it.
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And they change it for reasons that he does not like. Specifically, he pointed out that they will disable revision control, which is, according to Matt Mullenweg, a core aspect of what WordPress offers, since it is a content editing system and it has built-in revision control for many years. WP Engine... disables that feature.
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Matt Mullenweg says in order to save money on hosting, they don't have to host all those different versions of every post or page. So those are the things that he said, and he said it live on, he said it from the WordCamp stage, so it was kind of like a public call-out. I mean, it literally was a public call-out.
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So WP Engine then, their lawyers got together and sent a cease and desist to Automatic,
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Like, layered up, you know, straight up. Literally a cease and desist, saying automatic must stop doing what? Slandering them? The WP Engine trademark or something?
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So you're more about the show than the song. Yeah.
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Gotcha. And the WP Engine cease and desist letter has some pretty shady stuff in it that it seems that Matt Mullenweg has done. Specifically, which seems kind of extortative. Is that the word? Extortion? Or is it... I don't know. It does seem like that, right? It's because it's kind of like, you know, you got a nice business there. It'd be terrible if you lost it. You know, that kind of thing.
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It'd be terrible if something happened to it. Yeah. In fact, they claim, now this is all claims now. I don't know if this has been adjudicated in a court of law.
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Allegedly. So we mentioned that he originally called them out at WordCamp US during his keynote. Yes. Well, allegedly, WP Engine's lawyers allege that in the days leading up to Mr. Mullenweg's September 20th keynote address at the WordCamp U.S. convention, Automatic suddenly began demanding that WP Engine pay Automatic large sums of money.
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And if it didn't, Automatic would wage a war against WP Engine. This demand was accompanied by allegations about WP Engine's business that were not only baseless, but also bore no relation to the payment demand. So they go on, of course, they're going to lay out those kind of things. My assumption here is this is like, hey, you are infringing on our trademark.
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You're also doing other things I don't like. If you give us a bunch of money, then we will basically license you, or I don't know what the exact... Agreement would be, but so much so that he's sending text messages to WP Engine's CEO, whose name I don't know, leading up to the keynote and saying like, hey, I don't have to do this. You know, let's make a deal.
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He even says in this text message that they include in the document, if I'm going to make the case to the WP community about why we're banning WP Engine, I need to do it in my talk tomorrow. Your Delane is just trying to remove that. And he says some other things as well, which you can read too. We'll link up to the PDF. This is crazy, this.
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Not yet. Have you ever tried the Pee Wee Herman move? You know, get up on the bar and dance.
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Yeah, Matt gives numbers on that. He says that Automatic, which is a similar size company in terms of revenue to WP Engine, contributes back 3,915 hours a week to WordPress, the open source project. WP Engine, under this new ownership, contributes back 40 hours a week. Yeah, like probably one person.
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It's just not how you do things. You think Matt Mullenweg said, you know, get the name WordPress out your mouth.
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Nick, your thoughts on the matter. You've been silent as we review and correct each other on the details. Lots of details here. We may not have it. Like Adam said, there's probably missing context on both sides for us.
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Yes, but I can't remember who. I know I threw mine on the couch last week. Somebody just chucked it across the room. They're like, it won't stop talking, so just chuck it. That's right. I think it wasn't because it was buzzing. It was because it was ringing. It wasn't what Nick just did. Okay, Nick, continue. You got two phones, Nick? No, let's stop.
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Really? Yeah. They were a sponsor of WordCamp. $75,000 they spent to be a sponsor. So a large sponsor of WordCamp. And so I do think that Matt probably hit some sort of a boiling point here.
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As I said in the beginning, Adam and I have interviewed Matt a couple of times. He is a very nice guy. He's soft-spoken. He's very thoughtful. Yeah. He's been very successful and brought a lot of success to a lot of people. I don't know him personally. I don't know if he, you know, a lot of very soft-spoken, nice people also have tempers and can just go off. Maybe that's him. I don't know.
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But this does seem like an out-of-character thing, or it was a surprise to me when I heard about it.
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Okay. We work on that.
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I've always appreciated Matt Molenbeek's investments. He like invests in things that I think are cool. And then he a lot of times will open source them after investing. That's awesome.
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Is this like a daytime phone, nighttime phone thing? So you're always on offense like that one guy?
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Revision control. So every time you make an edit, it saves the version.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, I mean, at their scale, it's probably significant savings. This does sound like a private equity move, would be like to go in and cut costs, and that would be one way to cut costs. Now, having said that, This is not like changing the way WordPress works. This is a WP config option that is default to on, that WP Engine, the company, defaults now to off.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And so I think you can go back in, I would hope that you go back in through their interface. Surely you can configure your WordPress through hostings and turn it back on again. But this is just totally a private equity thing to do. It's like, let's cut costs. Here's one way to do it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And I can see where that's a legit move by them as a business, but it also offends Matt Molenweg as the creator of WordPress.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
You must have large pockets.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Right, litigation now. Litigation. I mean, the trademark thing is murky, like Adam said. But then here's a challenge to you. You're going to start up a WordPress hosting company. What can you call it? Flywheel. Flywheel. Well, they don't exist anymore. Exactly. I mean, they get bought by WP Engine. I don't know who Flywheel is. I think they probably did. I think they did. Yeah, they did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
We know Flywheel well because Flywheel is an Omaha company. Did you know that? Yeah, I did know that. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
To fit that phone in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I have such large pockets.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I don't see the difference between a blog post and a WordCamp keynote. I think that like that's just to the level.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Why? You think a blog post isn't going to also create an entire news cycle around this? I mean, of course it would.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Okay, so same overall size probably.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I don't think there is one. I don't think she let him write one. No. Ooh, Jared. That's fair. I think there's probably some taste to that. I think it speaks to the level of his anger. I don't have a problem with the WordCamp keynote. He created WordPress. He's there to give an update. He can say what he wants. I think he's earned that right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
For me, it's like the give me a bunch of money and I won't do this thing like that is where it's super dicey. Like, no, that's not integrity at all. Like, why? Why all of a sudden, if you pay me a bunch of money, does it not matter anymore? I mean, isn't he already uber rich? Why would he that whole deal?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And like, I'm about to do this, like to me, like that's where he loses me more so than the venue. But I do understand your argument there about not the time or the place. I do go back to this, though, like whose side do we have to be on? First of all, You know, what does it matter what we think?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
But secondly, I agree, like WordPress.org, I think we should all be on the side of WordPress, the open source community. And when we look about these two corporate entities, both of which are making billions of dollars in revenue, so there's no small dog here. Didn't he say? I think he said 500 million ARR. They do have about a half a billion in revenue.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Okay, so half a billion on top of WordPress.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
So you're mostly accurate. Yeah, sure. So what's a billion between friends? WP Engine is contributing back one developer, one full-time developer. Meanwhile, Automatic is employing 97.875 developers. full time on this open source project, that's an astounding amount of investment. Almost 100 people working full time on an open source project. I think they've earned their bona fides for that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I mean, I think these two things are not comparable. It's like comparing a million dollars to a billion dollars. And the difference is like roughly a billion.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, I mean, we're doing, it's not 100. We rounded and stuff. We did. Like we're just basically. Fine. I will take it to 97.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Rick? Leave it in. Fine. I was going to correct myself. Rick? Nick Rick. That's the rub, Rick.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, I had multiple iPads and I discarded them all or gave them away eventually because, again, I just never used them. It's like I have a laptop and a phone and there's really not much room in my life for something in between. But I'm rocking the 14 Pro as my daily driver, as my singular phone, although I am planning on upgrading because I'm on an every-other-year upgrade cycle.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Rick Rubin.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Show title. The wrong place to slap a person. All right. Well, that's how it stands right now. And then you have our comments on the matter. I think we're starting to circle the wagon. So let's not camp out here any longer to reuse Adam's pun.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
This will be figured out in the court of law, it seems, unless there's a settlement, because now they're both suing each other and it's going to get nastier from here. So maybe we'll talk about it more.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I still have them right here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I can. There are 10 of them. We have 10 free passes to the in-person All Things Open 2024 in Raleigh, North Carolina at the end of October. These are ours to give to whomever we please. Yes. And so we're going to give them away here soon to members of our community in our new community chat, which lives in Zulip. Don't slack it to us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Slack has been slacking and we are now in Zulip chatting in a much more organized fashion. We're enjoying it quite a bit. Keyboard driven, open source, indie. Built by hackers. Bootstrapped, right? Yeah. Yes. Not so much anti-VC, but VC-resistant. So far, no VC. VC-resistant. Straightforward business model. I'm not even against VC, clearly, by the way. Me either.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I'm against VC with, we'll figure out the business model later. That's what I'm against. Anytime it's like, we'll make it up in volume, that's where it ends up being advertising is the only answer. and now you are not incentivized with your end users. I don't mind VC to bootstrap a company that otherwise wouldn't exist otherwise. There's too many otherwises. But have a business model.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
But this is probably the first time where I was like, do I need to go every other year? Because this phone I have is pretty stinking fine.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I think that developer tools and developer communities have a much more straightforward line. than something like a browser, a consumer product, because we've seen it. Hosting is a straight line, as WordPress has proven out, and freemium is a straight line, as many dev tools have figured out. You build these extra features, not around a single individual user, but around a team.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
which means they're backed by a company, hopefully a company that's making money for itself and has money to spend. And so I think a lot of these venture-backed dev tools companies, I don't know if Raycast is venture-backed or not. I guess it is. A lot of our advertisers are venture-backed, and that's why they have some money to spend on getting their name out there, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And so that's a straightforward thing. I don't know if Raycast is a premium based on a pro version, right? But a lot of these are going teams. When you have a team, there's our business model. Warp is doing that, Zed is doing that, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that's a pretty straightforward line. That doesn't bug me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Of course, there's still the question of can you actually make enough money with that model to... make money for your investors and thrive and all that. But at least it's there and it's obvious. And it's not like, well, we'll just figure it out later. That's my biggest concern with venture backed. What about those ATO tickets? 10 free tickets. A little sideways monologue there. I liked it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
For getting me back. Well, I was trying to clarify my stance earlier. I'm not just a hater.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That's right. You have two new buttons. So there's the camera control and then the action button. Now of those two, I feel like, why? Why the action button? It just does one thing, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Here's my concern with provide us a pun in our Zulip chat. Is that... That's just a lot of friction. He's vetoing it. Fine. I just want to get those 10 tickets out there for people, you know, make it easy. You know, introduce yourself. How about that? That's a good way. Introduce yourself in Zulip and say, uh, I take a free pass to ATO. Something like that. Yeah. It'll be yours.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
First 10 people to do that. Bam.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
You can't just keep reusing the same funds over and over again, Nick. You've got to add something to the mix.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Ahoy, hoy. Yeah, there you go. Let's do it that way. If you put a pun in there. Bonus. You're going to get so many reaction emoji. Nick will be all over it. He might even camp out in there with you. In fact, I'll just put it out there right now. If you have a good pun, Nick will put on your post every single emoji in the list. Trust me, he has time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
It's going to flex his scripting skills on this one. Actually, there is a way in the Zulip API, which I've been coding against this week, to add reactions to a post. So actually, Nick, you could code that up if you wanted to.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Do you push it differently for each thing?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That is day one. It's called noise, not signal. That's not, that's, that's metrics though. That's good. Good job.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Not your track. We don't need yours. We'll, we'll drop you out in post.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
The long press is back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Don't need that now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Oh, the flashlight. Yeah. I thought I just launched BIM on your computer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Right. Like, at what time of the day should I just start Kiss by Prince, you know? Like, 9.30 p.m. is just that song. 7.30 a.m., man. That's the wake-up song. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Right. That was a fun time in life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Don't you hate that song though?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That's the problem. That's why you never set your favorite song to wake you up because you end up hating it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, let us know when you've had enough. I'd like to know. It'd be a good social experiment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
So the prior one's cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Don't you have Apple intelligence FOMO? Cause that's, they're, they're limiting it to the new ones.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Mm-hmm. Are you getting FOMO, Adam? Is it working?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That's the killer app, isn't it? It's better Siri. That's what this thing is selling.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, they haven't really released it yet. Right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I'm going to have to go ask again. I knew it was one of those two, but off the top of my head, I wouldn't know. I think it's 32.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
No, that's also a pretty basic math.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
There are more complicated maths than that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, that whole deal is a lookup table. One person coded that thing one time, and it's just some sort of thing that just lives in memory on every device in the world. For everyone who ever needs to know. That's the kind of stuff that humans ask all the time. I mean, I can't remember that stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, where you talk to it like her.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I still don't have that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Welcome to Changelog and Friends, a weekly talk show all about that bass. Special thanks to our partners at Fly.io, the public cloud built for devs who ship. Deploy your app in five minutes or less at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
That was it. I was keen on the exact same thing. I was thinking how liberating it must be to not have that thing that so many of us have, which is this need to capitalize, basically, to produce profit when you have. I mean, obviously, you still have a need for donations, an epic need for donations. And you've been working on that as an entrepreneur will be working on their revenue, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Uh, I think that's my just watching you like, and you've gotten that flywheel going to the point where, you know, sustainability seems to be there. Of course, that all also relies on future donors. So I'm not saying if you're interested in donating a free cone cap, I'm not saying they don't need your money anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I'm just saying that you've gotten into a point where it seems like you're stabilized and you don't have a hook anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
The market changes. It's very difficult to keep up once you're established, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I don't know, Quincy. You can go ask Sam Altman for the workarounds. I think he's got some stuff figured out over there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
No, I was not being serious.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Well, actually, if this thing goes through as it seems like it's going to, this open AI reshuffle, I don't know how it's all shaken out. It's very much like smoke and mirrors. It's kind of a bad precedent for other entrepreneurs to like, well, why don't we just have a nonprofit and then somehow convert it when it's economically smart to do that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I don't want to go down that rabbit hole necessarily, but it could be a bad precedent. Such a public and valuable organization doing that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Let's talk about demand because, you know, we've had a market correction, you know, hashtag learn to code had its moment and it's kind of gone now in terms of it being like a cultural thing where like everybody must learn to code. And there was a time where you could go through free code camp and do the very strenuous work. I mean, how many hours that is 90 hour courses.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I mean, that was the original thing, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Nobody ever finishes it. So it's a lot of effort, but you could put it, you could do it in six months, maybe nine months. How long would it take?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And at the other side of that tunnel, maybe three or four years ago was almost a guaranteed opportunity and a little bit harder today in today's market. Is that fair to say Quincy?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Right. I would say right now, my product, my personal productivity increase has probably been like 20%, like from one to 1.2, something like that. Yeah. Like it's nice. It's helped me. I continue to use it. I will. I, I appreciate every time it gets better, but yeah, 20% improvements, not going to dramatically change your engineering team structure. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I mean, I don't disagree. I think that unless you grew up and you're like 12 years old selling something on the corner, like you were like, some people are just sales people from the start, you know, like they're making money. They're hustling at 12, 13, 14. Like, yeah, go ahead. They start their first business at the age of 18.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Most of us do well to learn on somebody else's dime and just work for them, let them make the mistakes, let them make the profits, right? You get your wage and you get your education along the way. And then after a little while, then yeah, maybe it's your turn to strike out and take a shot at it. But you can sure avoid a lot of easy errors by working for somebody else for a little while.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
So I don't disagree.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Well, a lot of us would like to avoid that particular annoyance as well, but that's a different podcast. Yeah, I 100% agree. I think the law of diminishing returns applies to almost everything, including how much money You have and can make at a certain point. We've talked to many people who've made it and the money stops driving them because it's just like, well, that's just not a thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And you think satisfaction is at the end of that particular like high watermark. And it turns out, no, it's way, way, way lower. in terms of now that this money has taken care of my base needs, I don't have that stress of anxiety of if my car has a, you know, if I have a $400 bill, emergency bill, I can't pay that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Like when you get past that point, when you're like, yeah, I can pay my bills, I can pay my mortgage, put food on the table, maybe have a little bit of spending money, you know, to do a vacation or to scratch an itch or a hobby, at a certain point, The liberty and the freedom is way more valuable than that next million or whatever that number happens to be in your head. So I'm with you on that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
10 years, Quincy. 10 years. Free code camp. We got together on your fifth birthday slash anniversary. I'm not sure which one you refer to. Is it a birthday, Adam? Or is it an anniversary when a thing turns an age? Seems like a birthday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Can we talk curriculum?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Let's talk curriculum. So you have the core curriculum, of course, it's expanded and changed and you have a legacy curriculum because you've probably rewritten things, you know, over the years. And it's probably like the main thing that you think about as a, uh, is curriculum reaching more people. I don't know. It's probably like your core two things that I would guess. Um,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
A lot of the curriculum is web development oriented. Of course, it doesn't stop there. I'm sure you'll tell me the plethora of things. But if somebody was going to start today, I'm just thinking about web as a platform for success and how it's changed and we have these silos now and there's a lot of aggregation of profits to a few small organizations.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And I'm wondering how viable the web is as a platform for future endeavors. Like, is that a place where we as developers or wannabe developers should be still investing and honing on web development as a starting place? Or should I be looking into data science? Should I be looking into robotics? Like,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
What is smart for somebody who's trying to get into the game or invest in themselves, maybe switch their focus in the game?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
That sounds amazing. Very amazing. That's my entire commentary. That sounds amazing. That sounds amazing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Mission-critical code in C?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I know that's how they do it. I'm not sure if that's how they should continue to do it for our, our new, our new people should be learning perhaps a memory safe, low level language, but.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Oh, I get it, man.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
The universe is taunting me. I love it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
It's a starter job.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I'm just kidding.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
English, Quincy, we already speak English.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Very cool. that English stuff wasn't our transcripts going to be used for some of that, or there was an endeavor you all were putting together with our transcripts to be involved somehow.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
For sure. Right. For sure. Yeah. That's exciting. I'll have to work on my English in order to live up to that, you know, Quincy. If people are going to be looking at us, Adam, and saying this is expert level English, we should work on it, don't you think, Adam? I try.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Yeah, it seems like a system prompt. You can have custom system prompts for different sessions, and you could have one that just has that in there so that you don't have to say it every single time you enter into a chat. I definitely can see.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Are they ignoring you? We're still at the ignoring part.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
It's like saying education is a scam, right? Like, The question is, is it worth the price of admission, right? Like if you're being educated for free, like there's no scam there, right? If you're being educated for far too much money, now maybe we can say, okay, this is- That's a scam, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, at the end of the day, it's education.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And so education, if you can make it free, is of immense value, which is what Quincy is doing. And I think they'll continue to ignore you, maybe to their detriment. But I was thinking about the- the Harvard football team and these Ivy league football teams. And I was amusing myself as you talked Quincy, thinking about the free code camp football team and what that might look like.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And then I had an idea, you know, a new institution for a digital age, e-sports. Like it's kind of a joke, but maybe like you have enough people involved that, you could very easily and cheaply put together a free code camp e-sports initiative. And you could just, you know, a little bit of merch, maybe some Mountain Dew, whatever the e-sports people need that they power them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And you could have a little free code camp League of Legends, free code camp Rocket League team. Like you could have some teams and be like the first educational institution that truly embraces e-sports. That might be kind of cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Sure. Sure. Sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
You wouldn't be because universities are not doing esports. I mean, you would be the, talk about reaching the next generation of coders. You know, they're out there playing games, man. They're out there watching the experts stream their games. Just an idea. You don't have to, you don't have to commit to it. He's resistant. Yeah, I know. But he's going to mull on it. He's going to think about it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I was just going to ask you about that because this was my segue into this merging of the two things, right? Like when we last talked to you, and I'm watching this video game stream behind you as we talk, so I'm also thinking games, is you had this idea of gamifying education and getting this software developer video game, which you eventually released a game, right? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Like candy crush style.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
No, I'm not asking you to commit right now. I'm just looking for a spot on your Rocket League team. That's all.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Just kidding. I'm terrible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
That's true. Yeah, I'm going to have to move on campus.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Okay, well, this is getting more and more difficult. I see you're raising the stakes. It probably will be. There's a lot of good players over there. Hilarious. Well, what have we not plumbed? Let's talk about the future real quick. Future of education. You know, here we are 10 years in, we've talked to you five years back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I think we had talked in between as well, but this is our anniversary episode, 10 years of Free Code Camp. Can you look, is it even possible to look 10 years down the road and like, you know, just think of what it might look like then? He knows exactly where it's going to be. He does look at him. He's like, he's got a roadmap. Show us the roadmap. He's got an answer ready for us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
What are some dangerous situations you've been avoiding recently?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Yeah. I might do defensive driving. Yeah. How about peeing on electric fence? Yes. Avoid that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
You mentioned your bass. Let's finish. Let's close with you playing us some bass. Now, Quincy has what he calls the Free Code Camp theme song, which I don't know if that's what you're going to play for us. Play whatever you like.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
That's what he's doing, aren't you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Virtual Insanity. There's some good YouTube videos about the making of that video. I've seen those. Yes. Yeah. Very cool. It's crazy time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
We got good ideas around here, Quincy. Well, speaking of good ideas and good podcasts, we are going to go now record an episode of the Free Code Camp podcast with Adam and Jared. So to our listener, if you want more of us three talking on a different show, check out Free Code Camp podcast at least this week, but every week and see what Quincy's
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
doing and you can hear us talk more about ourselves I suppose I'm not sure what we're going to talk about but we'll see we'll see hopefully it's good bye friends bye friends cheers Free Code Camp is such a wild success, bringing immense value to so many people all around the world. Congrats once again, Quincy and team. And here's to the next 10 years of teaching folks how to code for free.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
So cool. As I was saying at the end of the conversation, Adam and I hopped out of our Riverside studio and into Quincy's Riverside studio for another, I don't know, 90, maybe 100 minutes on the Free Code Camp podcast. That one isn't out quite yet. I believe it'll ship closer to our actual 15th anniversary, which is in mid-November.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
When it does, I'll link it up in Changelog News so you don't miss it. You do subscribe to news, don't you? One reader just this week hit reply and told me it's the best newsletter for developers out there. That felt good. Check it out if you're missing out at changelog.com slash news.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Thanks again to our partners at Fly.io, to our beat freak, the GOAT, Breakmaster Cylinder, and to you for listening. We appreciate you hanging out with us. Next week on The Changelog, news on Monday, David Hennemeyer-Henson talking Rails 8 on Wednesday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And on Friday, we're in Raleigh for all things open next week, so I don't know what we're shipping on Friday, but I'm willing to bet it'll be good. Maybe even great, but definitely good. Okay, now I'm rambling. Let's wrap this up. Have a great weekend. Please do share our show with your friends who might dig it, and let's talk again real soon.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I'm reminded of that quote that says people overestimate what they can do in 10 days and they underestimate what they can do in 10 years. And I think that Free Code Camp at 10 years might be a great example of that quote being true because the accomplishment at this point seems massive and epic.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And I'm sure, maybe not wilder than your imaginations, but if you look back to Quincy in 2014 and you told him where it is today, he would probably be a pretty happy camper, wouldn't he?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
It's a good size team for a nonprofit.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I mean, 21 countries, that's, that's astounding. So there's so many different things going on, you know, in and around the free code camp. How do you Quincy decide what to work on? Like what's the, what's important today? How do you make those kinds of calls?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Why didn't you start it? What was your internal intrinsic motivation to begin with?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. There's a weird psychological thing. Maybe, Adam, you know more about this than I do from your brain science studies. But there's something about confidence that comes from not caring that actually refeeds the same loop, even with attraction. Where it's like the person who's not desperate ends up being more attractive to other people because of that mere fact that they aren't.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so there's something about that with, I think, confidence as well, where it's like the fact that you weren't there for these ulterior motives is actually even cooler than than if you were. And it's like that feeds back into the coolness factor. You guys understand what I'm saying here? I don't know how to describe it very well, but there's something to that, isn't there, Adam?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I'm just not sure if confidence is the right word.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Right. I think self-assurance is a good way of describing it. And I think that it does take that in order to go live on the internet and code in front of strangers. I mean, you have to have some self-assurance because they're going to be watching near every move, right, Suze? I mean...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Welcome to ChangeLog, and friends, a weekly talk show about Beverly Hills, 90210. Thanks, as always, to our partners at Fly.io. Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly, and so can you in five minutes. Learn how at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
The fact that you're okay with just making mistakes in front of people requires a certain level of self-confidence. Ah, not confidence, I guess. It's okay. I'm still going to stick with it. I think it's self-confidence. It works. It's challenging as well. Yeah. It's a podcast. That a lot of people don't have. I mean, or you have to build it. Even your...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What about your keynote speaking, like speaking in public and stuff? Are those things that require practice, nerves, like all that kind of stuff?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. Like, no, I don't get nervous.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I think we actually talked to you shortly after that. I think you had just come off the keynote.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You were decompressing live in front of us. It was awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Because you were so wound up for it. There's something about that moment when you're done where it's like, everything's better, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You gotta hate it when a successful keynote backfires, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
All you get is compliments and crypto.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Have you ever considered going anonymous?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
So we were talking with Chris Wanstroth a couple weeks ago, founder of GitHub, one of the founders. And obviously after GitHub sold to Microsoft, he took his money and went home and took some well-earned rest time. And during that time, he got eventually bored of
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
playing video games and stuff, and he got back into coding, but he didn't want anybody to know that it was him because everyone's going to treat him differently, especially on github.com being defunct, right? You're not going to just treat him like a regular person. And so he went and just created an anonymous handle, and he was contributing to people's projects for a long time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
as this just rando person that likes open source. And I think he had a lot of success with that. Eventually he said he pulled the mask off to a few folks who like he became friends with eventually that he was like longtime contributors to their project that became friends. And then he would tell them who he actually is, but he had a lot of success with that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And I think that that's one way that you can get what you want. If what you want is like focus on the work, focus on the technical, focus on maybe my thoughts, my words, and not so much on my person, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
We can listen to Change Logging Friends With Adam and Jerry and people you know Change Logging Friends
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You could be like the Banksy of the programming scene.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Right. You just can't ever pull the mask off. That's all.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, you just have to suck more, you know? Just don't be good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I don't find it strange. I mean, I think it's... Pretty common, right? Strangely common. The desire for fame and fortune is deep down inside of us, isn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Being famous. Were there any heartthrobs, Adam, when you were growing up and you thought, I would love to be like him? For instance, I can say, when I was young, I have an older sister, three years older, and she had friends. And so, of course, younger boy, older sister, sister's friends, very stereotypical, right? And they were very much into New Kids on the Block. This was like 1990. For sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
So I was eight, nine, ten years old. And specifically, was it Donnie Wahlberg? I don't know. I can't remember who the Naked Kids on the Block were. But they were heartthrobs. They'd walk into a room and all the women would scream. And then they'd have all this money and these cars and everything. And it's like, I wanted to be that guy. I don't think that's abnormal.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Did you have anything like that? Or you just wanted to be a corporate lawyer ninja?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Jason Priestley, that's his name, yes. If I could be him, my life is solved. Because of the sideburns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Suze, who did you want to be when you were a little kid?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I think we just see it more now because it's so easy to put yourself out there. Whereas you go back to when we were children and those people who wanted to be famous, well, they had to go move to Los Angeles and wait tables while they did all these tryouts and stuff. And their failures weren't public. They happened, but we didn't see them. Or their desires to be that thing, nobody knew.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
that I wanted to be Donnie Wahlberg or whatever his name was. I actually More than that, I remember being like, man, girls like the New Kids on the Block. I wish I was one of them. That was a fleeting moment. But my desire was more to be a professional athlete, which is another route to all the exact same things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so I wanted to be either Michael Jordan or Ken Griffey Jr., so baseball or basketball. Those are actually guys that I really wanted to be. Same with Ken Griffey. Whereas a passing fancy was like, oh, I'd love to be a famous singer. But I actually was like, if I could be Ken Griffey Jr. and do what he did, that would be a great life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so I actually put effort into that kind of stuff for a while. I don't know. I just feel like we see it more. I think it's more tangible to how easy it is. I mean, it's hard, but it's also easier now. I mean, there's more.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Suze, do you remember New Kids on the Block? Were you around?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I'm blue. Did I die?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
That was actually more my timing as well. It was my older sister that was new kids on the block. So I just, I think I was more, I had them at a younger age, but yes, in my formative years, it was NSYNC and Backstreet Boys. And by then I didn't want to, I didn't look up to those guys. I was just kind of annoyed by them. Although there is some talent there. But thanks for closing the loop, Adam.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Now, please move us to a new loop before we start singing again.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
So CTFs are fun. I did those back in college. I really loved it. And I think working on a red team would be super cool. I don't like the fact that at the end of it, you just have to write this long report. I don't know. Maybe, maybe the LLMs write that for you now and it's less cumbersome, but I hated that part. It's like, oh, now we've got to write a hundred page report.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And it's like, well, I'd rather just do the hacking and you write the report. Thank you very much. But is that what you were actually doing was red teaming and stuff or what's your day to day?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What are the various tools in the tool belt of a threat hunter?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Like, it was Banksy. It was somebody named Banksy. Mm-hmm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
How do these threat hunters get access to the infected systems without fear of additional hacks? Is it like the Heisenberg effect? By inspecting it, you're actually modifying it. Is it like clone a snapshot of the disk and work with it offline? Or what do they do in order to actually go about their work?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, I definitely was categorizing forensic people with threat hunting, but I assumed they would be operating at least in similar timeframes with regards to a breach, but...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
It's usually like a self-destructing letter, isn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
How much does that draw out your coding skills? I imagine quite a bit as you go through that stuff because there's so much TDM otherwise.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, it's a lot easier to know what to look for in an Apache log if you've actually managed an Apache web server for a while for whatever reason, or if you've, it's a lot easier to use Docker if you've used Docker and all these things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I mean, maybe that sounds obvious, but when you lack that context, you really are poking out a black box, you know, and you're just like, you can't really get in past the surface very easily. So was, were you on your own or is it Teams?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. That's as far as I got back when I was in school. I understood how they work, and I could recreate one given certain circumstances. But if you wanted me to actually go in and execute arbitrary code with the no-op sled and stuff, I don't know how long to do this thing in order to land in the right spot. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, that's some expert level stuff right there. Us mere script kiddies can't go there. We can just run the script.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You're making me kind of want to get back in the game and give it a shot.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, I had an information assurance sub-program at my university. And so I spent the last two years doing all InfoSec things. I actually did some penetration testing right out of college. And between the report writing and the fact that I felt like when you audit somebody, you do your best, but you can't really say anything at the end of the day except for, well, we did our best.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And it's better than not having been audited. But I always was like, there's like a false sense of security that you have now, which I don't feel really, I don't feel great like selling that, you know, as a service, a false sense of security. And so I realized also I wasn't that great at it. Like I don't have as much of a hacker's, a breaker's mind as I do a maker's mind.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I like to create more than I like to break. It's kind of what I learned about myself, but also just that I was like, I kind of went a different direction from there. I managed some Linux networks for a while, and that's when I found out about web development and started doing all that kind of stuff. That just mapped to my mind better than breaking in and breaking stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
But it was fun, and I think the CTS was the best part because they were very much like... you know, stereotypical, like drinking Mountain Dew, staying up all night, you know, like doing all the things that you, that happens in the movies, you know, and without having to like write a report afterwards or stamp a thing that says you're secure on it, you know, they're just, they're just fun.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I think the escape room analogy is a, is a good one. Like the way it feels.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
The main ones that we did were, there was a planted vulnerability, and it was teams. And you were attacking each other's machines and protecting your own. I'm not sure if that has a very specific name to it, that style of Capture the Flag. So then there would be a vulnerability on everybody's network. and the vulnerabilities were all different.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so as a team, you'd have to fortify your network while attacking the other people's networks, basically. And there would be some sort of a proof, like a flag, whatever imagine a flag would be, like a string of characters that you'd have to fetch off of their remote machine in order to prove that you penetrated it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And in the meantime, you'd have to be trying to find whatever vulnerabilities were on your machines in order to remove those vulnerabilities before you got hacked. And I remember one time we did them nationally And we got hacked and we got completely destroyed in like 18 minutes one time. Like we were just like, we were like, had our mountain dues and we're ready for a Friday night.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And like, we lost within the first half an hour because somebody was so much better than us. And I was like, oh, very talk about anticlimactic. It's like, oh, and we're dead. So that was fun, but it could have been more fun if we were better at it. That's the ones that I did. I'm not sure. I'm sure there's different ways they can set them up to do different things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yours sounds like it was levels, like there's levels of things that you have to do that you progress through.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
For sure. For sure. And it definitely felt like my Linux administration skills were peaking at that moment. Because you have to know all the commands. And you have to usually, I mean, the heat is on, which is the way it is, I guess. I've never been on a network that's under attack.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
in the real world but i'm sure it feels a lot like that where it's like if you have a an actual threat actor who has access to your internal network i mean it we're moving as fast as we can right like you got to figure out what machines they have access to how they got in like all these things what are we going to turn off or unplug or like it is a got to be a very stressful situation
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so when the heat's on, you've got to know the commands. You can't be sitting there Googling, like, how do I reset the password on this and that? All those things kind of go out the window, and you've got to just move fast. And so I definitely leveled up through those experiences, even when it only lasted 18 minutes. Those are good 18 minutes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And then you run it again and they're back and you're like, no, they're back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I feel like we should team up and do one. I need a team. I don't have a team anymore, sis. Although you're located three-quarters of the way around the world from me, so it probably wouldn't be the best.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, I think it depends on where you land, because I've definitely heard horror stories as well. And I've heard a lot of infosec industry people kind of liken it to game dev, you know, which is of all the software development careers, game dev is like, looks like the best, but is actually the worst. Yeah. Because everybody wants to be one. They're like the sweatshop of developers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Well, what's next for you, Suze? Is that something that's predetermined or you're still trying to figure it out? Still trying to figure it out. Can you talk about it or no?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Always with the funny, weird, offbeat projects going on. So for our listeners' sake who may not know that we've known you, Suze, for many years now, I think we met at OzCon, perhaps.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You must love knobs and...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
More dangerous than eccentric in my mind. You know, I think about flying planes and I'm like, well, what about when you're not good at it? Isn't that when you crash?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Right. You must be all right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, the smaller the plane, the scarier I, the more scared I am.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Well, the skies are more wide open. There's less idiots out there in the skies. You still have issues, I guess, with who's landing when and where. But that's the problem with motor vehicles. It's like everybody else making bad decisions.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, July. There you go. Was it in Austin?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Sounds cool. Well, how do we land this plane, Suze? I think we just say goodbye. Love catching up with you. Up to cool stuff. I'm looking forward to your pseudonymous, anonymous, open source contributions upcoming.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I won't know it's you. But I just, I like the idea that you're out there, that you're out there doing your thing, even if nobody knows.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. We get it. We do get it. And we appreciate you opening up and sharing with us. Absolutely.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What do you think? Should I dust off my old copies of Nmap, Wireshark, and Metasploit and try my hand at capturing the flag once again? Let us know in the comments. We love hearing from you. One more thanks to our sponsors of this episode, Supabase, Speakeasy, Test Double, and Socket. And of course, to our partners at Fly.io and to our beat freak in residence, Breakmaster Cylinder.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Oh, and don't forget Sentry. Use code CHANGELOG when you sign up for a Sentry team plan and save yourself $100. Why not, right? Next week on The Changelog... News on Monday, Ryan Wuerl from Warpstream on Wednesday. And our next edition of the award-worthy Pound Define Game Show on Friday. Have a great weekend. Leave us a five-star review if you haven't yet. And let's talk again real soon.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, that sounds about right. We had you on the show, just cold email style, and then met in person there. And then did another show, maybe just part of a, we call them anthologies, where we just put together a bunch of interviews from a show. And I do recall that. And then after that... I was like, we got to get, we got to hang out with Steve's more often.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
So I invited you as a JS Party panelist, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You did something like 40 or so episodes on JS Party for a couple of years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And we were, so we got to know each other and we were friends through a couple of transitions in your life. And then, I mean, it was Microsoft and then it was Stripe. It was New York and then Seattle or maybe the other way around. You can remind me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, that's right. I guess Microsoft would be Seattle. So yeah, New York, Seattle. I remember Stripe. And then Visa issues. I'm not sure how much you want to go into any of that, but you're obviously from Australia. Anyways, we didn't talk for a couple of years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And then I emailed you like, let's catch up. And then I realized you haven't talked... publicly online very much in the last couple of years. Not Twitter, your Twitch stream, which was one of the things that made you most well-known. Doesn't look like you've streamed for a while unless you have a new Twitch account. And now you're back in Australia. So as much as you're willing, tell us the story.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What's the last couple of years been like for you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
It's just like me putting it together from what I can gather. I have no idea what happened.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. Sounds like you did it though. It succeeded.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What was the hardest part to step away from? It seems like maybe your Twitch stream because there was a lot of people that just loved to hang out with you every week. That stream, which I watched it a few times over the years, was very intimate and seemed like there was a lot of friends there. They probably missed you when you decided to stop.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I'm seeing it two words everywhere. Yeah. Except for old English.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Where is pip dream? All one word.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Just let it marinate. Not now. Not yet. Pipe media?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I mean, I think that's a bold roadmap. Let me add this to the roadmap or maybe I'm not seeing it in the repo and it's there. Test harness. Is there a test harness?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I would love to be able to develop against this with confidence, especially once we start adding those edge redirects and different things. I would love to have that as part of the roadmap so that I can fire it up and create an issue.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So I'm going to open source the issue and then you open source the code. Amazing. I love that. Just making sure you didn't say PR is welcome and you're moving on. Cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I don't know. There's a possibility there. I think we build it for ourselves and then we'll know more.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, I think we build Pipe Dream in the open, and then if we decide that there's a possibility there, then you genericize it in a separate effort.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, a weekly talk show about the perfect name. Thanks to our partners at Fly.io. Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly, including ours. You can too in five minutes or less. Learn how at Fly.io. Okay, let's Kaizen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Kaizen 16, Gerhard, what have you prepared for us this Kaizen? I think every time, I don't know what to expect. And this time, I do know what to expect. So what changed? What's new? What's fresh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So custom feeds is a feature of changelog.com that we wanted to build for a long time. Probably not quite as long as we waited on chapters, but we've been waiting mostly because I had a a false assumption or maybe a more complicated idea in mind. We wanted to allow our Plus Plus members to build their own feeds for a long time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
The main reason we want to allow this is because we advertise ChangeDog Plus Plus as being better. Don't we Adam? Yeah, it is better. It's supposed to be better.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
However, people that sign up and maybe only listen to one or two of our shows, whereas they previously would subscribe publicly to JS party for instance, and maybe ship it, they now have to get the plus plus feed, which was because of supercast all of our episodes in one ad free master feed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And so for some people, that was a downgrade because they're like, wait a second, I want the Plus Plus versions, but I also don't want all your other shows, to which we were quite offended, but we understand. And that's been the number one request. I would call it a complaint, but actually our supporters have been very gracious with us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
They ask for it, but they say it's not a big deal, but it would be nice. In fact, some people sign up for Plus Plus and continue to consume the public feeds because that's what they want to do. But we wanted to provide a solution for that for a very long time. And because it was plus plus only, I had it in terms of like blockers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I had this big blocker in front of it, which was we need to get off Supercast first. Because that's the reason why it's a problem is because Supercast works this way, which is our membership system that's built all for podcasters. And it's served us very well, but it has some technical limitations such as this one. So moving off Supercast is a big lift.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And not one that I have made the jump yet because there's just other things to do and it works pretty well and lots of reasons. And so I didn't do custom feeds for a long time thinking, well, we got to get off of Supercast first. And then one day it hit me. Why? Why do we have to get off of Supercast? Can't we limp into this somehow?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Can't we just find out a way of doing it without getting off of Supercast? And the answer is actually pretty simple. It's like, well, all we need to know is are you a Plus Plus member or not locally to our system, which lives in Supercast? And then I remembered, well, Supercast is just using Stripe on the back end, and it's our Stripe account. And that's awesome, by the way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
They give us direct access to our people and no lock-in and stuff. And so kudos to them for that. And so I was like, no, all we actually have to know is, do you have a membership? And all the membership data is over in Stripe. And so it's simply a Stripe integration away from having membership information.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
here in changelog.com so i built that worked just fine and then i realized okay now i can just build custom feeds and just allow it to people who are members and so we build out custom feeds and it's pretty cool have you used them gearheart have you built a custom feed no i still consume the master feed the master plus plus feed with everything master plus plus feed yeah okay that's fair but do you know what i would love to do
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Are you a plus plus member? Of course you are because you have the plus plus feed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Okay. So sign in changelog.com. Yep. And go to your home directory, the tilde. Yes, I'm there. And there you should see a section that says custom feeds. I do see it. Okay. Click on that sucker.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
All right. There you go. Add a feed. Now you're going to give it a name that's required, you know, call it Gerhard's feed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Gerhard's feed. You can write your own tagline and that'll show up in your podcast app. Okay. You can be like, it's better.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Then you get to pick your own cover art because, hey, you may be making a single show feed. Maybe you're making all the shows. You can pick the plus plus one. You can pick a single show. Pick your cover art or you can upload your own file. You get to pick a title format. So this is how the actual episode titles come in to your podcast app.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Maybe you want to say like the podcast name, colon, the title of the episode. Maybe you just want episode titles, you know, put a format in there. And then you can limit your feed to start on a specific date. Some people want like fresh cuts between their, like the old days and the new days. And so they want to start it on this date because it doesn't mess up their marked as red or whatever.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
September 13th, start today. It'll start today. It's going to be empty. And then pick the podcast you want.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
with one of yours interesting right ours as in a changelog cover art that previously exists got it so you can like use js parties or upload your own file and you'll have your own cover art for your own feed
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Perfect. Boom, it's there. There you go. You build a custom feed. You can grab that URL, pop it into your podcast app, subscribe to it. Got it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I did both, yes. And then submitted the form? Correct, yes. Okay, you are the first person that's done that, I think.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
People usually pick one or the other. So, okay. Open an issue. I will get that fixed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Too good. So custom. So cool. You know, one thing I was going to do, which I haven't done yet, and this is a reminder is I want to put the change log legacy cover art in the list. Don't you think so, Adam? Like you can have the old change log legacy logo if you want.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Actually, that's an idea we had is to expand these to a bunch of maybe have custom artists come in and create new cover art you can select from. That might be cool. Very cool. But yeah, it's been kind of a screaming success, honestly. Currently, we have 320 Changelog++ members, and those 320 people have created 144 custom feeds so far.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
All right. We'll take us on this wild ride. Adam's also here. Adam. What's up?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Oh, I might've changed. I might've screwed that up yesterday when I was fixing something else. When I was giving you your account.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Okay, now that's all right. I think that that copy URL button should have copied the entire URL. Did it just give you the path, Gerhard? It did, yes. No wonder it's not a valid feed. So I literally fussed with that yesterday because I was giving Adam a different copy paste button and I might have broken it yesterday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, the href is correct, but the data-copy value is incorrect. And I'm pretty sure I broke that yesterday. So that used to work because all these other people are happy, but you're sad because I broke it yesterday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
It is taking its time, though. Well, the other reason why that was happening probably a few weeks ago is because... If you loaded a feed that has all of our episodes, for instance, 1,000 plus 12 megabyte XML file, we would serve it slow enough that Overcast would time out and it wouldn't think it was a valid feed. But then I fixed that by pushing everything through the CDN.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
You know it's up because Gerhard's here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Because at first, when I first rolled it out, it was just loading directly off the app servers. I know it's just a little bit too slow for Overcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I'm thinking you are an admin and so it doesn't matter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
The entire UI for building custom feeds only shows up if you are an active plus plus member or an admin, which is literally the three of us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Like you can't even build custom feeds. Now I did consider custom feeds for all, you know, let the people have the custom feeds, but plus plus people obviously would only get, be the only ones who get the checkbox. That's something that I'd be open to if lots of people want it. But for now I was like, well, let's let our plus plus people be special for a while.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Okay. Every custom feed has to be updated every time an episode's updated. And so if we had 100,000 of them, there would be some processing and maybe hit some R2, too many put actions versus, you know, it's free egress, but it's not free all operations. And so there's like class A operations, class B operations.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And the more you edit those files and change them, I think eventually those operations add up to costing you money, but it's marginal on the margins. If it got to be a huge feature where, I mean, if we had a hundred thousand people doing custom feeds, we'd find a way of paying for that. You know? Yeah. That's a different problem. But yeah, it's a marginal cost, but not, not worth considering.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yes, our user experience assumes that our users are nerds. And so far, before I broke that copy button yesterday, there's been zero people are like, now how do I get this into my podcast app? Like no one's asked us that because all of our plus plus members completely understand how to copy and get into their whatever, you know, they are smarter than me, most of them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Now, if it was for a broader audience and this was a baking show and we're going to provide custom feeds for bakers or aspiring bakers, then I probably would have to add more of a handholding. And Supercast actually does a really good job of handholding you into your private feed because it's not a straightforward mental process for most people, just for nerds.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
After the custom feed's created, we send you an email. That email contains a bunch of buttons. Each button's like add to Overcast, add to Pocket Cast, add to Apple Podcasts, and to paint on. I like that idea a lot. That's how Supercast works.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
We could certainly add a button that says email this to me. you know, next to the get URL, maybe like email me the URL. It's a good idea. And that's like a fast way to get it into your phone without having to do phone copy paste or airdrop like Gerhard did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So that's a good feature even for nerds. Cause it's just easier that way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Totally. Which my email is. Exactly. I think that we should add that as a feature. It's a good idea.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Hey, Jared here in post. That email it to me feature just shipped today. And that copy paste bug fixed. Kaizen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
If you are not a Plus Plus subscriber and you desperately want this feature, let us know. Because, you know, squeaky wheels and oil. Must be in Zulip. I don't know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Anyways. Well, not even, Gerard's not even in Zulip yet, so let's not get ahead of ourselves. No, but what's the URL? Because I would like to join. changelog.zulipchat.com.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
But can you just get on from there? I don't know. It's new to us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
All right, go to our Slack, go to main, scroll up a little bit. You'll see there's an invite link. To get into Zulip, you have to go to Slack. It's a Trojan horse. That's how you do it. That's right. You install one through the other.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I think it was both of ours. Adam said, can this be its own product or something? And I said, well, it could at least be its own repo, something like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
By the next Kaizen, we may be like transitioned over to Zulip. We might be self hosting it, but I don't think we should do that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And it's for all ideas about making things better and stuff. I even put one in there. You can read it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Oh, wow. So cool. This is nice. Isn't that cool? I thought a Kaizen channel would be on point. So cool. So I was kind of thinking like, well, how do we replicate our dev channel over here? And it's like, well, dev is just one thing. Like let's have a Kaizen and then different topics can be based on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
All right. Awesome. Custom feeds, Zulip chat, Kaizenine. What's next on the docket?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yes, it is. Amazing. I appreciate your enthusiasm. To tell everybody what the latest is, I literally put an arrow. And the words of the latest on our homepage that points to the issue, because it's kind of it could be discombobulating. Like you look at it on a desktop, at least on mobile, it goes vertical. But like on the left is kind of the information about news and the signups and stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And on the right is the latest issue. But you may not know, like, what am I looking at when you land on the page? What's the thing on the right-hand side? And so I just put this little arrow, handcrafted with SVG, by the way. And the words, the latest, like someone just scratched them on the page that points to that issue. So it's just kind of...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
giving you a little bit of context and Gerhard loves it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Historically. Historically, I would say too slow. Too slow, okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
There's like this threshold that I'm not sure exactly. It's probably fuzzy, but it's the point where like you're waiting so long that you forget that you're waiting and you go do something else. And I think that's measured in single digit minutes, but not necessarily seconds. Like I can wait 60 seconds. Well, that's my seconds. I can wait one minute.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
and maybe I'm just hanging out in chat waiting for that thing to show me that it's live yeah but as soon as it's longer than that I'm thinking well I should come back in five then I forget what I was doing I don't come back and I've lost flow basically so I would say around a minute you know 30 seconds would be spectacular it doesn't have to be instant but I think
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
two, three, four, five minutes, it's going to be where you're like, yeah, it's kind of like friction to deploy because you deploy and you're like, now I got to wait five or 10 minutes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
That's my very fuzzy answer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Well, for those who didn't listen to Kaizen 15, can you tell us what the pipe dream is?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah. And I think if you're at 90 seconds, you're probably right about there. I would still go in and spend an hour thinking like, is there a low hanging fruit that we haven't looked at yet that we could, you know, squeeze 10 more seconds off. And then I would stop squeezing the radish after that. You know, I see. That'd be my take on it, Adam.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So many quotes. Sure, let's hear it. I like hearing what I have to say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
If we get it down faster, it's even less.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So they're just like, they just use the Actions API, but you're running on their infra. Exactly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Okay. So there you go. What's funny is, you know how when you're shopping for a car and you look at a specific car, maybe you buy a specific car and then you see that same car and color everywhere. After this, I have realized not just hearing the word pipe dream or maybe the words, if we can debate, is it two words or one? But I actually realized I say that a lot.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Do we need to push this harder somehow? Like, do we need to get the vector search in our database or something? Weren't you going to set us up an AI agent, Gerhard?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
PG vector, man. PG vector. Get it in there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So we're not, we're not using this to its fullest extent is my point. No.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I call lots of things pipe dreams and I didn't realize it until you formalized it. And now I'm like self-conscious about calling stuff pipe dreams. I think I did it on a show just the other day. I was like, dang it. Cause now it's a proper noun. And I feel like it's a reserved word, you know? It's almost a product. Yeah, it's almost a product.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Adam, further thoughts or questions around Neon? This was your, this was your baby.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, I'm just saying, like, it's hard for us to use it and see if it's good or bad because we're not heavy database users. And I was just saying we just need some more arbitrary workloads to actually flex this thing. But I was mostly just being facetious.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I have a custom branch which I use to not develop against, but to sync from. I guess it's not mine, it's that dev 2024. That's the one I use. Maybe Gerhard created that, but that's the one that I do use. I pull from that, so I'm not pulling from our main branch because there's just less load on our main branch to do that. I'm using that, but I synchronize it locally, manually.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
and then develop against my own Postgres because I have a local Postgres. The one thing about it is because it's a neon branch, I will have to go in here and synchronize it back up to the main and then pull from it. And I'm sure that's automatable, but I just haven't done that. I've been waiting for Gerhard's all-in-one solution.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
If you could package up and sell 20 lines of Varnish, we would do it. But if you can't, we would at least open source it and let the world look at what we did. So it has its own repo and it has its own pull request. So, you know, it's going to be a real boy. Does it work? Does it do stuff?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I mean, I know you demoed it last time and it was doing things, but does it do more than it did before or is it the same?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I might need to get a brand new Mac so I can try this. Look at that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So it should be done before the day's over. Yeah, it should be done. Exactly. It should be done. One thing I'm noticing is that you're switching back to brew install Postgres.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I just want to know how much you want to challenge this status quo.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
no no no that hasn't changed I'm just kidding cool so for our listener if you want to try this github.com slash the changelog slash changelog.com clone the repo brew install just just contribute that's it try those three steps if you're on macOS if you're on Linux it's not brew install just it's apt get install or yum install the installations are there yeah and just contribute
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
If you do just dash n. Now, what if you have an existing repo like Adam does? Can he do it and it should pick up where he, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Give that a shot there, Adam. I'm so scared.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Well, that's good because TalosCon is on-prem free and co-located with SRE Day. However, it's also over with. By the time this ships, it'll be two days in the past. And so happy to hear, Gerhard, that there'll be a video because certainly our listener will want to see what you're up to and it's in the past.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Indeed. Awesome. Well, great conversation. Good progress. This session, what do you call it? This Kaizen. This Kaizen, yes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Pipely.tech. I don't know. I think we've got to get Pipe.ly. Otherwise, we're just posers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So we might have to raise some money for this if we're going to have to buy pipe.ly. We might need 50 grand. The future's coming, and we're going there. Kaizen. Kaizen. Bye, friends. What do you think about our pipe dream? Should we turn it into a pipe reality? A pipe-ly, if you will? Let us know in Zulip. Yes, we are hanging out in Zulip now. It's so cool how we have it set up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Each podcast gets a channel and each episode becomes a topic. This is great because you no longer have to guess where to share your thoughts about a show. Even if you listen to an episode way later than everybody else, just find its topic and strike the conversation back up. There's a link in our show notes to join Changelog's Zulip. What are you waiting for? An engraved invitation?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
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The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
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The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Have a great weekend. Leave us five-star reviews if you want some stickers, and let's talk again real soon.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Good roadmap. I dig it. So our logs currently go to S3, not to Honeycomb in terms of logs that we care about. And I know that I previously said we only care about our MP3 logs, not our feed logs in the sense of statistics and whatnot, but that has since changed. I am now downloading, parsing, and tracking feed requests like I am MP3 requests.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And so we would either have to pull that back out of Honeycomb, which maybe that's the answer, or somehow have it also write to where S3 is currently writing to in the current format for us to not have major rewriting on the app side. Thoughts on that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Do you know how you're going to implement Purge across all app instances? Like what's the strategy for that? No idea.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
We already have a Fastly Purge function in our app that goes and does a thing, and then we just change this to... Go and background Java reset on all these different. Now there has to be some sort of orchestration of like the instances have to be known. Maybe that's just like a call to fly or something, or I don't know how. DNS. Okay. DNS based.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah. That sounds like a straightforward way of doing it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
We upload. Currently? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Pipedream is just a cache. So you mean where's the cache data being stored?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Gotcha. And so Varnish is storing that cache locally on each instance. Correct. In its local disk storage, or however Varnish does what it does.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, exactly. Which is how it works right now with Fastly. Like after you edit an episode, we tell Fastly to purge that episode. The problem we had yesterday is that Fastly purged it, but then Cloudflare also had a small cache on it. And so Fastly would go get the old version again and say, okay, now I'm fresh. And so we had two layers of cache that we didn't realize.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And so that's probably fixed now, but yes, it would be basically everywhere in our app that we call fastly.purge, we would just replace that with pipedream.purge or whatever, which would be an OBAN process that goes out to all the app instances.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, because we already have when pretty much figured out. Gotcha. Which is pretty straightforward, really, because when we publish and we edit or delete, those are the times that you purge the cache. Otherwise... What's the point?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
We'll have to get Breakmaster Cylinder on the pod in the new year. That's easy. And discuss some stuff, because that's what we did last year.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So when you say clouds aren't magic because you're building a public cloud for developers and you go on to explain exactly how it works, what does that mean to you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
okay so you're bad and so you are you maybe you're right 100 we can just skip your section altogether at the end yeah maybe we could i'd just be like uh just listen to the show that kind of right but that was a good show like i really wanted to do that show for a very long time the adam jacob show yes yes yes every time we had adam on the podcast i found myself biting my tongue to go into those depths you know yeah because it wasn't the point of the show but i had curiosities
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And I figured, well, I'll just be patient because eventually we'll get that time. I guess the only sad thing is that it ended up on ChangeLogging and Friends. It was more of an interview.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I don't want to call this out necessarily to try to embarrass Adam. But did you... Do you recall the part in the show where he almost cried?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It was the first time in my ever interview history or career, whatever you want to call it, where I've actually gotten somebody... I don't even want to say it like that. It's not cool. Right. You're not getting them to it. I think you're trying. Yeah, I'm not trying to do that. It's just I don't necessarily want to make him cry. Let's just say. But I do want to hear the good stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And he was sharing this really raw story. emotional part of the chef history when he had to go out and in quotes or a version of quotes paraphrase command the troops get them excited and he just shared how he went back afterwards into his office and wept And in the moment of sharing that story with me, he's like, I'm like getting emotional, he says, you know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And I'm there visually, which is why I'm desperately wanting this video version of our show because there's things you miss.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And as a listener of that show, you only hear the audio. As a person who's there in the moment, we had to take a quick pause because he was getting emotional. And the reason why I share that isn't... It's not to expose that necessarily, but to point it out because I got to see that. And I felt like that was a raw, real moment with Adam in a conversation that was quite lengthy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It was like two and a half hours, I think, real time, maybe two-ish hours produced. And that's why I like doing podcasting, because you get that truly real, truly authentic, truly deep, when you can go there kind of conversation that can only really happen in a podcast like that. You are the Barbara Walters of our... Barbara Walters. You like my impersonation?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
The goodness that break message only brings is just so good. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Oh, yeah. I don't think it's that. I think it's that whistle when you pull it out. It elongates the sound, and when you push it in, it might be the same thing that we're talking about.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
No, this is disconnected. Okay. So for a bit there on the fly homepage, it said, I can't recall how many continents are, is there seven continents? I always forget. I'm too old to remember this stuff. There are seven continents, aren't there? Right. I believe there's seven. And they mention Antarctica coming soon. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I thought as a joke, and I started saying that as part of the, you know, big thanks to our friends at FLY and partners at FLY. All right. Antarctica coming soon, you know? And I think that's what he's referencing. Yeah. And I didn't take it away from that because he said something in Slack. I think it was Slack at the time. Oh, okay. So he brought up in Slack and ruined the joke. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
But he did ask if, I think it was him. Slack is a challenge because it's hard to find the right people, I suppose, over the years. But I think Zulip's a little easier to catch with people because you see the thread longer. It doesn't go away. It's not really ephemeral.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So I don't really recall the conversation in Slack necessarily, but I do recall the conversation around speculation of if it truly was going to be in Antarctica coming soon. We speculated whether or not there was, you know, servers down there because there's bases down there, etc. If there truly is it down there, flat earthers. So that's what it is.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I dropped it on the flat earthers, man.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I mean, I think that's awesome. Do more of it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Do you like Wes Anderson? Maybe. Okay. What kind of movies has he directed? Royal Tenenbaums. Okay, that's a good one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I'm a Wes Anderson fan. Wow, I'm proud of you. You're welcome. I thought you quickly LLM'd yourself or something. No, I'm just going from memory. Wes Anderson.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I'm going to have to circle back. I resisted the Royal Tenenbaums. I thought it looked maybe strange. Also, 2001 wasn't a year I was watching a lot of movies.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Or versions of it. I do recall the Grand Budapest Hotel being promoted. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
This isn't the best place to go for this, but it's one of the places I go to it. But if I want to know if I can trust this for my kid, I do use IMDB's section where it talks about parental spots. As you scroll the profile page for a movie title, there's a section that talks about the different things that appear in the movie specifically for parents to gauge whether they should or should not.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Do you recall a female in the movie being called the town tart in her youth? Yeah. Okay. They highlighted that as sex immunity. Right. Which is cool. It's called the parental guide. She's the town tart?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, I think we've been responsible for a lot of HBO subscriptions. I think so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I would just take a 4K version of the entire series. You don't have that? They didn't shoot in 4K? Well, if you recall... Christina Warren. If you recall, she and I, or at least she was, and we were both lamenting, at least I was lamenting this. The studios purposefully withhold the higher resolution versions on disc. They make you subscribe to the service to get the higher resolution.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So there's lots of Seinfeld even, I believe, in DVD quality. Like, come on. For real? Yes. Not even Blu-ray quality. DVD quality.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
State of the law. It is supposed to be a happy time. But I don't believe that we've break-messed the cylinder. We did not ruin it. Silicon Valley, thank you for all the dings. No, Andrew O'Brien ruined it. He feels responsible. Did he actually say that in his actual voicemail, though? I don't think he did, did he?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Right, and then BMC remixed his words. That's right. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And he doesn't agree with Adam. I don't think that really happened. No, I don't believe that happened at all. Let's hope not. We'll have to confirm. Silicon Valley. Well, friends, this is the last chance you have to get the 8Sleep Pod 4 Ultra in your hands in your bedroom before Christmas.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Go to 8sleep.com slash changelog and use the code changelog if you need to to get $350 off your very own Pod 4 Ultra. I've never had better sleep. I love this thing. I sleep on it every single night. My wife and I, we absolutely love what it does for our sleep. So what exactly is the pod? Imagine a high tech mattress cover that you can easily add to any bed. And this isn't just any cover though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It's packed with sensors, heating and cooling elements. It's all controlled by sophisticated AI algorithms. and it's all designed to give you better sleep. It's like having a sleep lab, a smart thermostat, and a personal sleep coach all rolled into a single device and no wearables required.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It uses a network of sensors to track a wide variety of biometrics while you sleep, sleep stages, heart rate variability, that's so important, respiratory rate, temperature, and so much more. The best part, it does all this without you having to wear any devices. Again, no wearables. And the accuracy rivals what you would get in a professional sleep lab.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
The pod uses precision temperature control to regulate your body's sleep cycles. It can cool you down to a chilly 55 degrees Fahrenheit or warm you up to 110 Fahrenheit. And it does this separately for each side of the bed. This means that you and your partner can each have your own ideal sleep temperature going on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And the really, really cool part is the pod uses AI and machine learning to learn how you sleep, to learn your sleep patterns over time. And it uses this data to automatically adjust the temperature of your bed throughout the night to fine tune how you sleep, to give you more REM sleep, to give you deeper sleep. And that's the part I love most.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And all this functionality is accessible through their awesome mobile app. You get detailed sleep analytics, trends over time, and even a daily sleep fitness score. Again, go to 8sleep.com slash changelog. Use our code changelog. Get $350 off your very own Pod 4 Ultra. Do it now. Sleep well for Christmas. Again, 8sleep.com slash changelog. And also by our friends over at Wix.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I've got just 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio, the web platform for freelancers, agencies and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on studio. Number one. Integrate, extend, and write custom scripts in a VS Code-based IDE. Two, leverage zero setup dev, test, and production environments. Three, ship faster with an AI code assistant.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And four, work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Wix Studio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Well, my time is up, but the list keeps going on. Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself. Go to wix.com slash studio. Once again, wix.com slash studio.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Very cool. Okay, so experience the magic of Fly and get told the secrets of Fly because that's what they want you to do. They want to share all the secrets behind the magic of the Fly cloud, the cloud for productive developers, the cloud for developers who ship. Learn more and get started for free at fly.io. Again, fly.io. Thank you. All right, man, here we are. State of the Log.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
There's an obvious thing here, right? I mean, are you going to say that? Go ahead. What is Prime Digital Academy?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Oh, okay. That makes more sense. I was like, gosh. I thought we were getting credit where credit was not due or conflation. I was like, what is going on here? I'm down. I'm on the webpage, primeacademy.io, by the way. They're in the mix of the IOs that may get repurposed. We'll see. And I'm on the about page and I'm like, meet our team. I'm like, I don't know any of these people.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Where is the connection? Please help me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Can I share a call-out that I used to do back in the day? Roo-ha? No, this is going to be epic. Okay, I like it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
This should be clipped.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It's not my best rendition, but it's a pretty good one. Say more. The context. I was in the military, of course. And the military has an alphabet, A through Z, just like anybody else. But V is Victor. So when you do the phonetic alphabet, at least the military version of it. Alpha, Bravo. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, all the things. Foxtrot, all through V, which is Victor.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And so I was in Victor Company. And so every company is charged with creating their own thing to kind of get the hype, kind of like this ooh-ha-ha thing, except for that one's shorter, right? And so it was Victor Company, V-I-C-T-O-R, Victor.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Colleagues. Troops, I guess. Soldiers. Yeah, your fellow soldiers. Yeah, fellow soldiers. But you mess with the best, you down with the rest. Victor what? Victor what? Is the clincher.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Can you believe it? I can't believe it. You know, I listened to last year's in prep for this one. You did? Yeah, I went to sleep to that last night. You might be more prepared than I am then, because I did not do that. I wouldn't call that prepared, really. At first glance, as a consumer of podcasts, I looked at the chapter list, and it was like...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
There you go. I don't know about you, but I've got my scalp massager out. And I'm thoroughly, just thoroughly just relaxed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah. I dig it. And so does Jarvis. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, I was pumping my fist on several of them, but I have to say that I'm not batting 1,000 now. It's a shame. There was two or several that were not on my list, and I'm sad now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yes, true. Can we talk about BSD? Or at least free BSD? Can we or did we? Can we briefly? Sure. So I got excited about that afterwards. And I share Brett's excitement too. But then I got sad because it seems like free BSD is just not getting the love because it's not the way I suppose Linux is. And there's the lack of support for certain things and it's just hard. It's just hard to use.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
uh, voicemail, reaction to voicemail, voicemail, reaction to voicemail. Right. The chapters weren't really indicative of the content. That was okay. So it was a different vibe, but then also audibly a very different vibe. We did some list different last year, you know, and we're going to carry it through this year too. So.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And so I think it gets, it has such good pure intentions, but it doesn't get the same love that Linux proper gets. Gets the same love in what way? What do you mean love? Well, obviously Linux is, you know, one over it is what I mean by that. Corporate love. I think developer love, you know, really. Investment. Investment, potentially.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
But I believe, I can't recall in this moment, I'll have to go back in my links and find it, but I believe earlier this year there was talk about how FreeBSD wasn't supporting certain things and they were falling by the wayside.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And essentially, like, it seemed to me, like, if I was reading the tea leaves, like, pay less attention to it because it's just eventually going to always be this super minority.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I mean, you really got to want to feel the pain, I suppose.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
That being said, you should check it out. I'm actually like on hackaday.com on a post from this year. And at the very end, just scanning it, it says FreeBSD is here to stay. So don't take it from me. I am not steeped in all the things. I'm not angry.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I mean, that being said, I did spin up ZFS. I did get a file server running. I did do all the things I intended to do. Do you remember where you got stuck? I didn't get stuck. I didn't actually have any issues with it, personally. But it was just this tension of what FreeBSD was supporting and what it wasn't supporting and how it was being supported. And then you got...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
TrueNAS, who moved away from FreeBSD to basically a Debian version, and they're deprecating, they're sort of maintaining the FreeBSD flavor, but TrueNAS scale is the future of TrueNAS. Not that they're the litmus test of FreeBSD dying or not. It's just like, well, if the people making a file system and a server can't build their future on FreeBSD, then who can? Where does it really fit?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And so that's what was making me think, well, maybe it's just not worth my. It's not that they can't, it's that they chose a different way. Sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah. Fair enough. I had no problem with it. I loved it. It was actually kind of fun, except it was limiting, you know, to me at some point.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Oh, man. So good. Where else would you get that kind of goodness in life? I'm telling you. I mean, you put your spoon in to that cup and you're coming out with goodness, okay? Yum, yum, yum. Okay, so I'm digging what Breakmaster's doing on the voices stuff. That's pretty cool. I want more of that in our life. Right. I feel like these are proving grounds for future coolness.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I was also thinking not this voicemail remix, but the one prior. It'd be kind of cool to also release a companion podcast that's just the voicemails as chapters. Just like we did with the album. I don't know if that would fit or not, but I'm just thinking like as a condensed version, just listen to them all in continuity. It's like, there you go. Boom.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I feel bad about my life. Let me listen to this show.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Go ahead. Pick one. Get into it. Change log interviews. Episode 592. From sun to oxide. Epic. I thought he would pee himself. You thought Brian Cantrell was going to pee himself. I thought Brian would, well, he drank like three Diet Cokes or something like that, like during the podcast. When you say epic, you mean it literally in terms of length. Oh yeah, it was long.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I think it was as long as I could maybe have ever gone. Probably our longest episode.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I do have a... 153 minutes. That's two hours, 33 minutes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I dig it because Nabil was, he started the WordPress drama thread, by the way, and has been consistently posting in there. And that's been going on for a while, so much so that I'm scrolling back. So September 21st, Nabil posted odd drama going on in the WordPress land, thoughts, and linked out to like two ex-posts. And then, yes, Don McKinnon just after that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So maybe that was where you were connecting it a little behind the scenes there. But yeah. Dig those. I mean, thanks for listening. So awesome. Yeah. And being in Zulip. That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah. It's always been this spotlight kind of nature behind the scenes. This, this exposure, this where's the light less shined and shine it there and see what's over there. And sometimes it's not so much duds, but like just cool stuff, but not so interesting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And then sometimes it's like, wow, there was a diamond in the rough over there and we found that thing. And now it's like, boom, it's, you know, all the places doing all the things like Zulip. Clean it off, shine it up, you know, hanging out in Zulip. And Babaverse. Oh yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I don't know. I mean, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Of favorite episodes?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Tropical Freeze. We need a new version of Tropical Freeze. I am down. I am.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So I've been listening to some synthwave remixes of, I guess, gamey soundtracks remixed, like synthwave style. And Donkey Kong Country, et cetera, translates very well. Retro Kid on YouTube. Check them out. Amazing. Yeah. Code to those beats. Nice. And I've archived them to my Plex, by the way. Did you try out Archivebox? No, I have a Plex, so I've just been Plexing it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
But the principles of Archivebox have crept into my life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, I already have the software and already have an uptime guarantee on it and etc. So yeah, I'm just flexing it essentially. I'm just moving it into my music category in Plex and I go to RetroKid and I push play and all the albums just queue up. And I work. Sweet. And there's a good Zelda track in there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I'm on the .fm right now, Acquired.fm, checking it out. I've heard of the show. I haven't listened to too many of them. It's very popular. I haven't listened to it either, but people love it. I think they're doing a good job. I'm down. Crossover away. Let's do it. We'll see if they're down. I'm seeing their About page, and it seems like they're maybe on a stage. I think...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
This next year, I want to call it a conference, but it'll be cool to do a live podcast. Like sell tickets, do a live podcast. That'd be kind of cool. Have you seen this where there's like the thing that podcasters are doing? I'm wondering, could we sell 50 tickets maybe? I wouldn't sell 50. In a city? I think if you went to like New York or San Francisco or... Yeah, or Austin. Austin even.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Maybe Austin. Austin's kind of small though. It's big small. Yeah, but it's tech big to a certain extent. Yeah. I suppose Elon's doing something here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I mean, it is my backyard, so I'm down.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I just have less hope that we have a ton of listeners here. I think we have more based on our stats.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
analog i mean not not literally analog but like real life for the win real life for the win hardware physical media for the win is what i meant to say yeah physical media is cool i i don't know if i like physical media personally i think it's cool but like maybe not good take it's cool but maybe y'all didn't see his face he was struggling to figure out what to say and he came up with good take
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
tangibility to it that we desire and so in that way it is cool obviously there's lots of drawbacks like you know your dog eats it or something my vehicle can't play it it's useless to me in like the places i consume content well how about a record player like in your house do you think that would be cool i would love a record player so that's cool i would i would go there yeah yeah that's kind of what he's doing it sounds like with mini discs you know okay that's cool then okay i'll take it back then
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I need more context. Oh, I'm glad I opined. I'm down for that kind of thing. I want a listening room, Jared.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, it's not like, oh, let's just cue up artists.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
That's what I'm up to. So I can say that the, I don't know if this is how your household went, Jared, but the moment that dance party was on the actual, I guess, proverbial airwaves, like on Spotify, I was like, okay, that's when it's real.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And, you know, obviously we QA'd it. We kind of like previewed some things, but I didn't listen to it with intention and enjoyment and motion, like body motion.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
until it was on spotify and the moment it was i queued it up and legit me and the kids just danced they mainly danced a lot i just like moved a little you know they were really having a lot of fun for the whole thing like we just listened end to end the entire album it was awesome
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
The true creation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It makes sense because the Castlevania soundtrack was just phenomenal.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And Draculous Purse is obviously an homage to Draculous Curse, which was the true music that came from the video game that literally everybody loves way more than Zelda. Ha! Just saying. Just saying. We could take a poll. I think you might lose that one. It would probably lose. It would.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
This number that we choose is a secret too. We're going to reveal it later.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I just never got into it as much. Right. That's all. Fair enough. I identified more so with Castlevania. You know, it just had different touch points, I suppose. It might have been the first NES game I maybe bought. There was some connection to it where it was up there more than Zelda. And I also grew up poor, so I don't think I was able to afford Zelda for many years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I think I had to play my friends. It was gold, so it was cool. It had the gold cartridge, but it didn't cost any more than the other games. Yeah, it was super cool. I didn't have the bling to get the thing. I'm sorry.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Ah. So much emotion, Nick. I appreciate that. Nick brings it. He does bring it. So then I'm thinking like, okay, he was joking about you, obviously, because you hate TypeScript. So was he joking about you? Or at least you do on a podcast. And I'm thinking like, maybe he thinks I don't like Homelab and he's not telling the truth about me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
He knows how to set it up and knock it down. I think that was the first time I met Nick. Well, no, I met Nick back at the JS Conference back in Nebraska times.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, and we've obviously digitally hung out. Right. Zooms and Riversides and podcasts.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
We should bring that back just for fun to see what people who never saw that just to get a glimpse of like the experiments, you know, the trials and tribulations.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
You will not get a link from me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yes. I do want to say, though, about Nick. He's actually pretty cool. He's actually pretty cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Truth be told, I'm still making my list.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
That's true. I can cheat. Okay. I can cheat. You know, the problem is there's just so many good ones. So I started making a list. I was like, okay, that was a good one. Okay, that was a good one. Okay, that was a good one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
TypeScript saves another day.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And I just had a really hard time making an actual list this year because there's a lot of good stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Did you forget about it? I would like to say that maybe the well has dried up on, maybe, I don't know, should we dip back into that hiring market? It seems like we should. It was enjoyed. I love Gary Gay. I love talking to him.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, I like doing it in the fall. It's a good end cap to the year because it's almost like, how do we get here and where are we going? Well, we dropped the ball in the fall, though. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Maybe. Sometimes two years is the right amount of years. Sometimes. But I was pumping my fist on the best worst code base. Yes. That was a good one. I love that story. Yeah. Great story. 10,000 hours remastered. That was actually, I like how that worked out actually. We had a gap. And we were thinking about what to do, and I was like, let's remaster an oldie but a goodie.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So I'm glad at least one person really enjoyed it. I think that it got re-listened to another 25-ish thousand times, maybe 21,000 times, at least based on the site's stats. And the remastered version actually has some cool stuff. Chapters! So the first time we did it was pre chapters and now it has chapters.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So, you know, this listening experience might actually be slightly more enjoyable because you can jump around. Cue the music.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Oh, my gosh. I don't know if this was it or not. I was thinking maybe those numbers at the end might have been like 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42, which is from the TV show Lost. That would have been cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Still good, though. Still good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
He would have had to say the numbers to get that to do that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah. When I said cue the music, I was thinking the song Jump Around, though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I came to get down. Get off your feet and jump around. That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Not the leprechauns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Jump around. I don't know about this history. School me quickly. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah. Glad you messed up and, but didn't.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Wow. Sean's log. Oh, Matt. I don't have to say that. I don't have to say about that, you know. Matt's a character.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I know a little bit about it. I'm not going to say any more than that. What might it involve? Just give us like one hint. Off color if you have to, whatever, not direct. Yes, and. Oh, that's so revealing. You said it so quickly, like as if you had it queued up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I told you, BMC has some new toys. I'm just not sure what this show has become. I think it might be like a show-off center for Breakmaster Cylinder. And then obviously a show-off center for our listeners. Very much not about us at all. At the very, yeah, at least a playground.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I keep trying to talk and I keep being cut off by these voicemails.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I fell asleep. I fell asleep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
That's a good one though. Yeah, that's nice. It's so, yeah, I was going to make a timing joke, but I can't find my words. Yeah. All right. Well, let's hear from Jamie then.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I love how it's better has become a thing. Like an unstoppable freight train. I love that it's so recycled throughout. It's a dumb thing I said one time just like messing around, you know? And it stuck. And my kids... Mimic it as well. My youngest, my five-year-old, they, you know, in their kid voice, change a lot plus plus. It's better.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
You know, they hold their nose because they make it sound nasally for some reason. I'm not sure to be, if I should be offended or not, but the Danny Thompson one, I like that. I'm glad that got out there. Yeah, that one almost didn't make it out. Yeah, it's, it was, can you talk about the... The travels the data had to go through to get to us to become an MP3 on the airwaves.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
We came close. We almost deep-sixed it because we thought about what was it about it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, this January, last year, if you're listening to this in 2025, last January, January of 24. Yes. Got to give to get back. Yeah, got to give. Got to give to get back. To get back. I'm glad we got it out there because I think that I don't know Danny's full story aside from what we had shared there. But I think he had been newer or newish to sharing his story, especially on stage.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I think since then he's had more reps. And so we actually may be late to the party in terms of sharing that story. Sure. But obviously sharing it on the conference stage, so to set the stage a bit more elongated but shortened. Is that even a thing? We were on stage with Danny. Did we pass the mic back and forth? I don't think so. Yeah, okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I think we each had our own mics, but they were handheld mics. They weren't like stationary mics. We had them handheld so we can pull them away from our face. There's no breath going on. And then we had some Q&A afterwards. And so the Q&A didn't fit. And so if you're at the conference, it was a lengthy conversation with more context.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
As a podcast, the Q&A just didn't fit because it was so contextual to the conference and the screens in front of us. And so it just made sense to like trim that. But I'm glad we got it out. I'm glad that the sneaker networked out. I'm glad Nick had his hard drive. I'm glad Clark Sell came through and got us the data.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And even if it was published, you know, recorded January 30th and published November 14th, that's cool. At least we still shipped it, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And... It was awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Mmm. Mmm. That one smacks. So much better for years. That beats a banger. Check the scoreboard. The numbers don't lie. I reversed it. What'd you reverse? Well, it's actually the numbers don't lie. Check the scoreboard. Oh, I don't know the saying. Dude.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Wicked smart. Wicked bad.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, I thought because of the shit boy, you would know. I don't know that verse. Check the, what is it? It's numbers don't lie. Check the scoreboard.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, that's the thing. I mean, I think it's the thing, and he made it a lyric. He didn't create it. He didn't coin it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, come on. Theft. Now add that to the list. Yeah, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It's a whole new show now. Chapter marker, drop it. Part two. Another hour of show coming up. Get ready. We're going for a bathroom break. We're shaking our legs. I'm just kidding. What's up friends? I'm here in the breaks with David Shu, founder and CEO at Retool. If you didn't know, Retool is the fastest way to build internal software. So David, we're here to talk about Retool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I love Retool, you know that. I've been a fan of yours for years, but I'm on the outside. And you're clearly on the inside, right? You're on the inside, right? I think so. Yeah, I'd say so. Okay, cool. So given that you're on the inside and I'm not on the inside, who is using Retool and why are they using Retool?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
yeah clearly the front end has gotten complex no doubt about that i think even front-enders would agree with that sentiment and then you have back-end folks that already have access to everything api keys production database servers whatever but then to just stand up retool to me seems like the next real easy button because you can just remove the entire front end layer complexity
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
You're not trying to take it away. You're just trying to augment it. You're trying to give developers a given interface. That's Retool. Build out your own admin, your own view to a Google Sheet or to the production database all inside Retool. Let Retool be the front end to the already existing back end. Is that about right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, I think so too. So listeners, Retool is built for scale. It's built for enterprise. It's built for everyone. and Retool is built for developers. That's you. You can self-host it, you can run it in the cloud, make custom SSO, audit logs, SOC 2, Type 2, professional services. Starting with Retool is simple, fast, and of course, it's free if you want to try it right now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So go to retool.com slash changelog. That's R-E-T-O-O-L dot com slash changelog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Let me just say one thing before we truly break over.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Because I recall the podcast with Jamie. Yes. I recall being there, obviously. I recall this show was awesome. Good. I do not recall titling that show, Yeeting Stuff Into Public. Did you title that Sans Me? Was I on vacation or something?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeeting is a term?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I have a long list. Okay. I mean, not even, I'm not even sure that I can express this list. It's lengthy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Zulip. Good job, AJ. I like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Right. Previous to that was Packet. Right. But they go back to the... We talked about subscriptions inside of data centers and stuff. Right. Because of like recent... Recycling hardware and kind of having the best tech.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Who wrote this in? Where did they write this in at? In Zulip? Did I miss the chat? There was some chat.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And that was the show title. Show title. You will like this one. I think it's the best one of the year. If there was an award for the best title of the year, this is it. Okay. The wrong place to slap a person. Ha! I believe it's the best of the year. That one is in my list as well. I think it's staying still yet. That's the wrong place to slap a person.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I mean, it's created some major waves, a lot of drama. I mean, would it be different if it was done differently? Maybe.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Ah! Adam's the best. The old hot and juicy. Gosh, what was the context? Why did he say that? Do you recall?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Can I quote him from the transcript? Yeah, go ahead. Adam Jacobs says, yeah, and the reputation dragon was the reason to do it. Somebody replied to me on Twitter and called the cease and desist letter the old hot and juicy. Right. So the letter was the old hot and juicy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Probably should have said it differently. B.S.O.D. The Blue Screen of Death. To drag it out doesn't like let it land. The B.S.O.D.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It's probably a debacle. Well, it's an incident for sure. Oh, for sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Having caught up with the ripples, though, like what's changed as a result of this happening?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I mean, that can be kind of boring maybe.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It was actually both of those were open source thread chat. Team chat was on my list. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
1999, A Film Odyssey. That's a changelog plus plus only. It's a bonus show for those who are the cool people, you know, it's better.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, I did it for you. Oh. And I'm rude. And the last one was The Wu-Tang Way. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
But I'm down for it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Please tell me why it's your favorite, given that you haven't listened to it. It's the most recency bias I could possibly have.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And so remind me what your hint was to me and what I did not get. Did you give me a hint? No, I didn't give you a hint.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Oh, okay. That's true. And it is in this year.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Congratulations, Jared.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, it's too hard to do. I mean, they're a thread. I feel like they're chapters in a major podcast. They almost are.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Selling things and meeting people at... No, selling DVDs and meeting them at Starbucks.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Do you ride in the back of the car or? No, no, no. Okay. Well, no, I literally will say, hey, if you want to buy this thing from me, meet me at the police station. That's a great place to meet somebody. Yeah, 100% not getting murdered there. Yeah, exactly. It's a maybe. Actually, it might be, it's so obviously safe that it's not safe.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So, could backfire.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Your turn. Now, were these episodes you mentioned ones that were delimited from the list of ones already mentioned?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Should I share my entire list or should I share the list that hasn't been shared already? Share your list that hasn't been shared. Number one. ChangeLog Interviews, 615. Rails is having a moment again. Good one. Good one, yes. Into the Bobiverse, episode 603, because why not? I'm concurring with you on this one, The Man Behind the Sandwich, 601. Nice.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
In the beginning of Generative AI, episode 576. Joe Reese. You know, that was so long.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
That was fun, too, going on his podcast. I feel like we went there and had no topics. Yes. Right? Pretty much. Where can we go, basically, was the conversation. That was cool. Right. I appreciate that about Joe, that he did that. Because, I mean, one, you can say he didn't plan. Or two, you could say he didn't plan on purpose. There you go. I know which one he might say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
This one here was also early on. Last year. It's actually one episode before that. Episode five, seven, five shift left. Seriously. I feel like that was a really good show on the shift left idea.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I mean, shift left has been said a lot, but I think the thing I took away mainly from that was it's always been said, like who shifts left developers, obviously it's going to shift left into the development cycle.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
But for me, I think I even said it and it was me saying it like my aha moment was that it doesn't have to be developers shifting left that it's in development. So it could be those around the dev cycles. It doesn't have to just be the developer writing the code. It could be the team playing the software and the product team.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
It could be that shift left isn't just simply a developer task to pick up. It's not the who, it's the when. Yeah, it's not the who, it's the when. Thank you. Yeah, that's what I said. I know you did. I remember you saying it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
ZSA. Yes, ZSA was... Is it on there? I mean, I had a long list. It didn't make my list because it's such a long list. The Moneyball approach, Best Worst Codebase, Open Source Threaded Team Chat.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah, that was a fun one even to come up with because when I saw what he was spelunking into when it came to those Winamp themes, I'm like, wow, that is some cool stuff there. And I think I shared that with you and you're like, yeah, that's dope. Let's do it. And so we did it. Mm-hmm. Paraphrase, of course. I don't think you ever said the word dope. I say the word dope. Dope. I call people dopes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, that's not nice. Yeah, just my kids. Yeah, well, you know, it's been a fun year. It's been, is this the first year where we've, was Friends around all last year? Like end to end all last year?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
The late siren. You know, having heard that remix, I have to say that I have purposefully, behind the scenes, not listened to any of these. So that I can have, in the moment, I know you have, and I thank you for doing all the prep of this, you know, all that behind the scenes love, care, attention, so that I don't have to burst the bubble for myself. I can live in the moment in this podcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
What I was trying to make was I think it was the first year where we had two shows a week all year long, January to December. Right. And that's why it feels like a lot. That's like 100 episodes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
What do you think was the through line to the year in terms of there wasn't like a consistent this is the change of the trend line.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah. Like, AI didn't get touched on a lot this year, even though I think it did. I mean, we talked about AI loosely, I believe, in The Man Behind the Sandwich. You know, obviously in the beginning of Generative AI with Joe Reese, that was right in the title there itself. I feel like AI didn't play a major conversational role in all these. We didn't talk about DHH at all. Nope.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Or the Moneyball approach. Nope. Or the best worst code base. Nope. So I think we kind of kept it somewhat AI free. I think so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Slight ramble. Somebody mentioned, I forget whom, with their voicemail mentioned episode 70, Bus Factors and Conspiracy Theories. I think that I enjoy solo shows with you just as much as a guest. And I'm glad people like those because I think we... We do have some, you know, some good stuff, let's just say, in those kind of shows. We good at talking sometimes. We good at talking.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I will say now that I'm looking at this list, there is an honorable mention I want to bring up. Okay. And I really, really, really enjoyed the listen back. So, I mean, I don't always listen to our shows because obviously I'm like there. Right. But I do listen to parts. That's why I appreciate our chapters. I'm like, I was there. I'm going to chapter. I'm going to jump around. I'm not going to.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
You're going to Cypress Hill that thing. You know, go all in and listen to it end to end. Yeah. Shop talking friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I thoroughly, truly, really enjoyed having Chris and Dave on. I feel like we literally were sitting down with friends. Exactly. And we were, obviously.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
But I think that to me was just such a fun... Even the way it opened up with me telling Dave that he wasn't on brand with his... It's all caps or camel cases. Let me fix that. And then it turned into like, was that a web socket behind the scenes? That just opened up the conversation just naturally. There was no real true beginning to the show. We just opened up there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
And I think just the conversation was there was no true plan because that's what you're doing anyways, right? You're just going to sit down and talk to people. Right. I like when that works out to our betterment when we actually come without a true plan. There's a version of an idea. There's a concept of a plan.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
So I appreciate that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Something to think about. Well, I don't know if this is indicative or not, but I would probably say, based on my list, no. All of my favorites were on interviews. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy Friends. It's just to say that, you know, I think that my list sort of gravitated there. But my favorite titles were on Friends.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
We broke the rules a couple of times too. Like I think you might be on something with this whole three people because when it's three, it feels like an interview. Like 10 years of Free Code Camp was on Friends.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, you had to create a type form. You had to promote it here and there. You had to talk to people in Zulip. Oh, that's true. You know, that's so much extra work involved. I mean, it is work, though. It's the nurturing process. Of the things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Yeah. I'm down. I'm just saying. It is what it is. I think I like them all, honestly. I mean, I do agree that there's some good stuff on both sides of the fence.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, we did drop some major news, and the only time we talked about it was with Gerhard, loosely. Right. Should we talk about that at all? Or is there more to say about that? Well, there will be a link in the show notes. A new era coming 2025. That's right. Still percolating. You know, this is a dry brine. A drive-by? It's a dry brine.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Well, they take some time. It's a whip. Let's call this a whip. Sure. We have some change. It's clear. It's clearly unclear. But I would say this. This is what I said at the end of this one show. And I said, just trust us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Trust us to have the best interests of all the reasons you've shared your voicemails, all the reasons you've hung out in Zulop, all the reasons you've listened for a few years, for many, many years, etc. Have some patience with the process of what we're trying to do. We're making some change. It's not going to be exactly precise, but it's mostly precise.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
intentionally precise if we can, and we're trying our best to move the direction that we want to go, that it needs to go, and that's really it. Patience. Patience, Grasshopper. Patience.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Anything else? The remixes. Thank you, BMC, for the extra attention. So good. So gold. So gold. That should be the better so good. The new so good is so gold. So gold. So gold. Like that Zelda cartridge. Preach. So gold. So gold. Yeah. Thank you, BMC, for those beats and for just the remixes and making this show a little more special. A little more special. Thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
Okay, let's do it. What's up, nerds? I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly. You know we love Fly. So, Kurt, I want to talk to you about the magic of the cloud. You have thoughts on this, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
State of the "log" 2024 (Friends)
I was going to say that, my gosh. I was being quiet. I was going to come in right away and just say there was so many deep cuts there. Yeah. You know, really there were. From Dan Tan to the Homelab stuff to just all the details, man.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
I'm not sure if I like that. I like the idea that they're trying to do. It might be good for some people. Not for me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Yeah, and honestly, this might bring it back. I mean, AI is the new search, as you can tell based on your story.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
It's the new search for me, too. I'll share a shorter version of it. I do want to concur, though. A big shout-out to MinBrowser. That's super awesome. I recently used ChatGPT, and this was actually the 4.0 model. It wasn't the 0.1 model. I think I was just, you know... Silly for a day. Didn't swap out to 01. Anyways, I think I'll be in the market soon to get new tires.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
And I know that when you buy truck tires, it's always like, well, you want to look cool. You want to have the MT, right? You want to be a cool dude. I don't know what the MT is. I don't know what it means either. I think it means mud tire. Okay.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It looks rough. It looks rugged. And so as a dude, you may be swayed to go that route if that's what you're drawn to. I think it'll look cool. Maybe it stands for manly tread. You want that manly tread? Maybe so. So what does AT stand for then, Jared, if you've got this down? Oh, what's AT stand for? Because there's AT and then MT. Oh, awesome tread. Awesome tread. Okay, cool.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I like awesome tread personally. So I prefer a tire that is designed for road travel and a little off-road because I do pull things here and there. I've got a travel trailer, right? Sure. It's not so frequent where it's a daily driver kind of thing, but I do want to have that concern accounted for when I purchase tires. And so I used ChatGPT to locate...
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Other people's robots (Friends)
some good tires for my particular truck my year make model etc gave it my engine and told it how i drive what i'm kind of optimizing for went uh through a couple rounds and landed on four good tires that are really good selections and the one that it suggested most was exactly what discount tire now also not a sponsor geez so many not sponsors this time around i'm a fan of discount tire though okay you have them there yeah we have them here
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Fantastic. I love Discount Tire. They make it simple. They make it easy.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
They're the best. You can call ahead. You can book an appointment. If you're a military veteran or active military, they'll give you a discount, et cetera. Really good people. Usually pretty knowledgeable staff. Even if they're new, they're pretty knowledgeable. And so I benchmarked this advice from ChatGPT against the advice I would get from, you know, the real deal.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
The real deal Holyfield, as they would say. And pegged it on the Michelin Defender LX M slash S, which means mostly super awesome. Mostly super awesome. So I went with a road-ish tire. A road-ish tire. Anyways, great recommendation from LLM. So honestly, in my opinion. Yeah. So.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I have not deeply investigated it aside from its price tag and its potential availability. And the fact that anybody who is buying a Mac mini is not reconsidering their purchase to consider this instead, even though. It's quite a bit more than a typical Mac Mini configuration.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
So you're often compared to GitHub Copilot. I got to imagine that you have a hot take. What's your hot take on GitHub Copilot?
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Other people's robots (Friends)
The only sad part I would say This might dovetail a little bit, but let's not go there if we don't have to. I just want to make this statement, okay? Okay. Is that the sad part is in that world of building your own machine is not Mac OS. Right? I love Apple hardware. I don't love it so much that I only want to use only Apple hardware. I like other hardware, but I love Mac OS. Right.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I want to take Mac OS elsewhere. And what I want to do is build my own machine because it's fun. Yeah. But I want to run Mac OS. Totally. And I can't. So I end up running a Windows machine, which is not the worst ever, but it's not Mac OS. It's not that it's bad or better or good. It's just my preference. It's not about good, better, best. It's what I've been aware of, known of, etc.,
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It's my platform of choice. And so to go this route of NVIDIA GPUs, which is fun, I've got to now use, in my opinion, a subpar operating system comparative to what I'm used to. Not because it's worse or better, because I like it. I like macOS better, just to be super clear.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
But what it says here, though, is kind of cool, is that each Project Digit system comes equipped with 128 gigs.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
of unified coherent memory what does that mean unified coherent memory is that something new i don't know it says by comparison a good laptop might have 16 or 32 gigs of ram and up to four terabytes of nvme storage and it says for even more demanding applications to project digit this is cool Two project-digit systems can be linked together to handle models with up to 405 billion parameters.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Meta's best model, Lama 3.1, has 405 billion parameters, as an example. That goes on to share more stats and specifics, but wow. It's packing the punch. I mean, you can pair them together. So this AI mainstream that we opened up with, You know, I want to run, which I have not done yet. And it's not because I'm not able to. I just haven't had the time to dedicate to doing it right.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
So I'm a fan of do it once, do it right kind of thing. I like to iterate too, sure. But in most cases, I want to do it once, do it right. Because I got a limited time to dedicate. I want to run my GPT locally. And I think this might be the gateway there. Although the price tag is prohibitive. Even though it's cool. Just don't know.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Says it delivers up to one petaflop of AI performance. I'm sorry, what does that mean? One petaflop? Is that just like basically infinite, big, massive, awesome?
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It can perform one quadrillion. One quadrillion. I had trouble saying that. It's so big. One quadrillion AI calculations per second at FP4 precision? Are they throwing out new acronyms here? Are they making up things on the fly with this new system?
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Other people's robots (Friends)
And do people like those computers? I think this is a newer thing, though. I think in the last year, they've come out with a laptop and a desktop. Which to me, and this is sort of, and I'm not deep where I know all the things, but this is like entrance knowledge. Having built several different machines, the fun part is choosing components, obviously.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
And I feel like if NVIDIA is an amazing player in the marketplace, you want to choose their GPUs. If they're building laptops and desktops, maybe, potentially, yeah, disagree to that. Just give them your stuff, man. Just let them track you. I just accepted NVIDIA's cookies. This is an addition to Min. Min. Block all tracking. Right. Right? That'd be cool. It's open source. Make that contribution.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
What was I saying? Is that it's almost like the Apple way, and I'm hoping it doesn't go that way, where they become – I suppose it probably wouldn't happen. With them being a GPU seller as a component, they wouldn't corner the market or try to corner or stranglehold the market by creating laptops and desktops that make it so that you can eventually buy their component and build your own system.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
That's my concern. Not fear, but concern. Like, will they get to a point where they become such a behemoth that they Apple the ecosystem and stop making the components to sell and force you to buy their laptop, desktop, digit, et cetera, closed system. I like open systems where I can swap things out, choose the components, swap out the CPU, the GPU, the RAM, all the things.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
That's the fun part of that side of it. And maybe you're the one that's guinea pigging the platform, and if they've already solved it, maybe it's not worth it, but that's the fun part.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Let's hope. Let's hope.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Because I'm a fan of MSI. I'm a fan of Asus. I like the idea of multiplayers. I think that's what keeps the... Despite my thoughts on Windows, and I'm not a Windows hater. I just have a preference, okay? Despite that, I feel like having a multiplayer world in that PC building market enables it to thrive. Because you've got one year, you know, this particular motherboard is going to thrive.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
This brand is going to thrive. Or they have a feature set that enables ECC memory that others don't. Or whatever it might be. Or they're enabling the latest DDR5 RAM. Or they're able to handle clock speeds and overclock. You know, you've got these selections. That's what's cool about the PC building world. In my opinion.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
What's up, friends? I'm here with Kurt Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Fly. As you know, we love Fly. That is the home of changelog.com. But Kurt, I want to know how you explain Fly to developers. Do you tell them a story first? How do you do it?
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Other people's robots (Friends)
So unlike AWS or Heroku or Vercel, which are all great platforms, the cool thing we love here at ChangeLab most about FLY is that no matter what we wanna do on the platform, we have primitives, we have abilities, and we as developers can charge our own mission on FLY. It is a no limits platform built for developers And we think you should try it out. Go to fly.io to learn more.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Launch your app in five minutes. Too easy. Once again, fly.io. This digit though, so if you were to purchase it, what would make me think it's valuable is if this thing can be on my network and give me local LLM to my LAN, maybe I can assign a global domain name to it and actually access it from external. I can tap into it from the API.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Maybe I can attach a client to it that fetches via the API and it's all local to me. Where I don't have to do what you said before, which is, you know, other people's robots.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
You know, OPR. I'd like to own my own robot. And if Digit is the way to go, then it's three grand to do that. Maybe the Gen 2.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Very cool. Well, friends, Augment Code is developer AI that uses deep understanding of your large code base and how you build software to deliver personalized code suggestions and insights. A good next step is to go to AugmentCode.com. That's A-U-G-M-E-N-T-C-O-D-E.com. Request a free trial, contact sales, or if you're an open source project, Augment is free to you to use.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I would buy an inexpensive Mac Mini. with as much peripherals as necessary, no storage really necessary. Maybe there's some storage necessary. I don't know. I would configure a Mac Mini, put it on my network, and I don't know if a 10 gig connection to it is necessary either. It's just data. A one gig connection is probably just plenty.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
So you can go with potentially the base model Mac Mini and get maybe a majority of or a lot of what you can get from this NVIDIA Digit. Now, I think the numbers, there's a thing that is positioned as somebody who's gone beyond the land. Like, I'm looking for, you know, how can I integrate suggestions? Gosh, I don't know. Do you have Alexa in your house? A who now? A who? Alexa? Oh, yes.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Do you like Alexa? What's your relationship with Alexa? Positive or negative?
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It's new. So my personal usage has always been frustrated. At friends' houses, they've got it to do lights and stuff like that. So in that example, which I haven't gotten there yet, I think that's cool. This goes back to the self-hosting. I would totally set up Home Assistant, configure Alexa to do these things. I think that's cool. That's a great usage of voice. It's simple.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It's a simple interface to do things in your household. I also like HomeKit. And so in my house, at least we have some automated blinds or some... They're on the network. It has a hub. How do I describe this? They're blinds that are electronic. They have a battery in them, so you can recharge them once per year kind of thing. And it has a remote, and you can use the remote, obviously.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
But you can also just tell HomeKit, open all blinds or close living room blinds or open living room blinds to 80%. It'll take even that kind of percentage number. And so HomeKit does a lot of that for me. So I haven't really leaned too far into Home Assistant. That being said, I'm not a super insane self-hosting home automation person.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I'm just a dip my toe in person because I don't have enough time to go as deep as I want to. I really should carve out more time. But my issue with Alexa is that it's mostly frustrating. And the reason why I'm getting to this Alexa conversation is that how would I want to leverage an LLM that I would host myself? Like Olam or whatever.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I would love to have some voice version of it so I'm speaking to it versus just having to type everything to it. Can I take this LLM and expand its usage? Alexa and Siri are the two good options for voice OS. And so I'm not sure that Siri is there yet. I wonder if Apple's Apple intelligence will prohibit Siri from being more useful in those regards. Don't talk to me, Siri.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Learn more at AugmentCode.com. That's A-U-G-M-E-N-T-C-O-D-E.com. AugmentCode.com. So, Jared, I hear that AI is now mainstream. How mainstream? Officially. Officially. Who officiates such things? I mean, I feel like it's been a star for two years-ish or more. I guess mainstream is now like everybody, you know, it's kind of funny.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Gosh, Siri's listening on my phone right in front of me. Go away, Siri. So I think I would love it if someone would just corner the market on a really awesome voice OS that is agnostic so that as NVIDIA predicts this AI going mainstream with NVIDIA Digit, I think this is true. People are going to start putting LLMs in their homes more frequently now.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Because of Olam, because of the self-hosting option, the next thing you're going to want to do, though, is interface with it via voice. So how do you do that? That's why I asked you about Alexa.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I've resisted that upgrade because of what they've done to the Photos app. So I'm still stuck in the past. Oh, you're in the past? Well, I'm just scared. I'm so afraid. I'm shaking in my boots with this whole thing. This is the walled garden.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I know, and I'm resisting, Jared. It's so hardcore, okay? And the reason why is the Photos app. I use the new Photos app all the time. It's not very good, but what am I going to do? I don't have any alternatives. I know. I was hoping that they would reverse the train and do something different. Well, there's always iOS 19. They'll dial it back. Did you see the meme?
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I want to see if we can put this in the show notes. I don't even know where to reference it. I have to pull it up on the screen. There was a meme of like you would see on TikTok where you have one person going back and forth and they're both characters. If you want to try and pull up, you can. But it's essentially saying it's Friday. Let's just we got to ship this.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I'm paraphrasing this hysterical meme of making fun of how Apple released this photos app. And it was like, oh, it's good enough or I've got to leave and it's got to go and something where it was just like basically rushed. And it looks good. Looks good to me kind of thing. I'm doing a terrible job describing it. But it is amazing. It was funny. That being said, my wife is upgraded.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Should I put Friday in there? I'm pretty sure it's Friday, but throw some keywords in there. Friday, recent update. Friday, TikTok.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I've resisted this latest update for the reasons of the photo. And I love the Photos app. So I...
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Other people's robots (Friends)
uh dad's out there listen up okay quick class i've got a five-year-old and rather than doing like look up sometimes we'll do stories obviously we still do stories but one thing i've learned about young children is the the reason why they love photos is they love to know where they came from they love to re live recent memories and it's a it's a part of bonding it's obviously part of a dad bonding thing
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Other people's robots (Friends)
But it's also like this thankfulness and appreciation for the life they have and the blessings they have in their life. And so we go back as part of a nighttime routine. We'll look through recent photos, recent events, especially if it just isn't really cool and really fun, like that day kind of thing. We'll go back through and look through the adventure we had that weekend or that day.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
And so I'm near and dear to the way Photos app delivers these memories to me. And so I'm resistant to this change. That being said, now I have not even looked at any recent update for it. I just know it's just generally bad. I was going to say, the new Apple Photos still does all that stuff.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I was actually at a men's retreat this weekend and I was talking to them about something. I can't recall the context now that I'm sharing this story, but I said, Oh, it's probably because of this, this and that and the API. And they're like, the whole, the whole group of guys was like, I have no idea what you just said. So y'all don't know what an API is. They're like, no. Oh my God.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It's some sort of infinite scroll. It's like change the UI.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I am on Sonoma 14.6.1. Okay, so you are a Luddite. I'm resistant to change. Okay. You should know this about me. I'm resistant to change. I know. I pause. I think. I calculate. I hymn. I haul. I delay. I reconsider. I hymn. I haul. I delay. Then I'm like, okay, let's do it. That's my way. Yeah, that is.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
autocomplete suggestions on your messages app but it's like i would never say any of those three things i don't talk like that so no i'm not going to click on it here's what i would want okay tell me this is what it does or what you think it will do okay i use apple maps when i drive i will often need to recalibrate my direction all time i do not want to pick up my phone and do it by hand because why
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It's dangerous. You're driving, man. I'm driving, yes. I would love an Apple intelligence or any intelligence to let me remap my directions. Or, hey, I'm going here. What restaurants are nearby there? No, even better is like, we want to stop at the next Chipotle between us and where we're going. Preach. For me, it's Buc-ee's. Just throw it on the map for me.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I was on a trip recently for this men's weekend. I was like, I'm in like nowhere land in Texas, which Texas is big. And sometimes you get out there and you're like... Where is the nearest gas station? I didn't plan well enough. I'm going to run out of gas situations in Texas. That is the truth between Houston and Amarillo. You can run out of gas if you don't plan properly.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Where's the next Buc-ee's? I'm heading this direction. Just ease my anxiety. There's a Buc-ee's in 20 miles. Okay, great. I feel better. You know, like whatever it is.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I can't even tell you that.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Yeah, my usage of Siri is very cursory. I do math with it. I set timers. I cancel alarms. I close blinds. I open blinds. Yeah. I'm getting a front door lock from, I believe, Yale. Yale University? Yale, the door lock company. Okay, so that's a different thing. And it can connect to your network. And so I think I can say lock front door, unlock front door. I can open my garages.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I mean, maybe not. I don't think you have to be aware of the API to be above or below it. But if AI is mainstream and AI was not mainstream to them, that's a big deal.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I have a carriage garage and a main garage. And I can say open main garage, open carriage. And I can actually say I could make it say open carriage garage. It's just long. And I haven't I've been too lazy to go back and say open main. But I mean, I think open main garage is actually pretty good.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
So we have Apple CarPlay in our car as well. And so I'll push the talk button because that's how you talk to Siri. Right. And what I will say is we're driving into the driveway. Open main garage.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
And so as I'm driving into the driveway, rather than push the button or find where the thing is at, we actually keep it hidden because we don't want anybody to come and steal our stuff and like come into our house through our garage opener and they've got access. And so it, like I'd say 98% of the time it works just fine. Every once in a while Siri's like, what'd you say?
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Yeah. And what I've found though, too, to go one second deeper on this is that I didn't think that my inexpensive came with my home garage door openers were connected. My neighbor who has the same ones like, hey, Adam, did you know that these things are already Wi-Fi enabled and they already like connect? I'm like, no, I had no idea. He's like, this is how you do it.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
This is like last, literally last year at the same time. And sure enough, they're connected. They're genie models. Like they're not, they just came with the home, like nothing special, not big, you know, there's nothing special about them.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
But they connect to the network. They're really easy to use. And the iOS app that you install on the phone allows you to configure Siri and HomeKit and shortcuts to interface with it. I think garage doors are a great place. Blinds, if you have them. We use Apple TVs a lot in our home. So I can say, you know, turn off family room TV. It turns it off. It can turn it on.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
All of our TVs have Apple TVs there. So I can like speak to each room essentially, you know, turn off living room TV, turn off master bedroom TV, et cetera. So those are the things I like. And that's nothing special. That's not HomeKit, or that's just all HomeKit.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
They won't mind. I will concur with them. My kids do that to me. They know that trick. They play it frequently. You've got to think of a random word to throw in there at the end. Yeah, it is good stuff.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
okay friends have you ever been doxxed on the internet maybe you've been stalked maybe you've been harassed or you've had your identity taken from you privacy matters so much to everyone obviously but have you ever wondered how much of your personal data is really out there on the internet for anyone to see there's more than you think your name your contact info social security number what unlocks your credit history your home address or even information about your family that's terrifying
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Other people's robots (Friends)
All this data is being compiled by data brokers and is being sold online. So DeleteMe is one of our sponsors and they gave me an account to use. I tried it and it's helping me remove my personal information from hundreds of data brokers out there. Here's how it works. You sign up, you provide them with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take from there.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
They send you regular personalized privacy reports showing you what information they found, where they found it and what they removed. And delete me isn't just a one time service. It's always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information that you don't want on the Internet. To put it simply, delete me does all the hard work.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It wipes your information, your family's personal information from these data broker websites and gives you peace of mind. So take control of your personal data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Today, you can get 20% off your Delete Me plan by texting CHANGELOG to 64000. Again, text CHANGELOG to 64000.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Of course, message and data rates may apply. Check their terms for more details. Enjoy.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I mean, life could have been lost. For sure. Right? I mean, you could have puked your guts out in this situation. Yeah, it depends on how tight that loop is, you know? Yeah. I mean, eventually you're going to get maybe one and a half G two G's. I mean, at some point you get over that and the, you know, going into the centrifugal force.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Yeah, I think of the ending there was kind of cool. And he's like, look, pull up the left corner of that map on the floor and you'll see a red button. Hit that button. Reminds me of the recent button conversation we obviously had with Rachel Plotnick and the importance of literal buttons that can be pressed. And it was red. You got to have a red button somewhere.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
Something is going to happen with that. Yeah, we need escape hatches, that's for sure. I had no idea there was this button or the app button to pull over. I have not been in a Waymo, so I think that's just fine not having that knowledge just yet. But now that I do, I will be more confident going into a Waymo because I know how to get out should I get stuck in a perpetual loop.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
You know what, I'm not in downtown Austin enough to know. Maybe, I would say maybe. I think I kind of imagine it might be the birthplace of whatever Elon Musk might launch because the headquarters is here now. It's in a city called Bastrop, B-A-S-T-R-O-P, Bastrop. We call it Bastrop, like the word drop though.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
So that's an eastern suburb of Austin, literally east of Austin, considered Austin technically.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
it is the city of bastrop just so you know that's not confusing enough for you no that is where his uh like the tesla there's like a tesla headquarters in north austin uh there's a tesla something or other about 20 minutes from me here that's like just massive and then in bash drop they have their um what is it called it's like a city like a little mini city he's building
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Other people's robots (Friends)
You know, I got a fun way I used AI recently. Maybe you can, as I'm telling the story, you can share another or think about another. Is I was ripping a brand new Blu-ray disc I just got called Fight Club.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
It's crazy what he's doing here. I imagine that whatever he may launch will probably launch here first because so many folks are migrating to Texas.
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Other people's robots (Friends)
I want to mention this show, like this being trapped thing. If anybody is a fan of 80s British television, then I want to mention a show that I... I like a lot. I haven't watched all the episodes. It's called Connections. Episode one is called The Trigger Effect. And we're going to link to it in the show notes. Jared has it pulled up right now for you to check this out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
It's on the internet archive to watch, which is super cool. Yeah, very cool. And so what's cool about this is this was like, this is an 80s TV show. And James Burke, the fellow that I believe is hosting this, is talking you through the way that technology traps us. And this is in the 80s. His example was New York City, Manhattan Island, basically, is a big trap, a big technology trap.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
You've got elevators, you've got taxis, you've got subways. If that subway stops, you're stuck in this tunnel kind of thing. This is not a new invention of being trapped by technology. And I think as we have AI and Waymos and stuff like that, it only is going to make it even more of a possibility to have this trigger effect, as he calls it, which is...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
this technology failing and then everybody being stuck in some way shape or form a waymo is the most modern example potentially uh back in the day it was an elevator and i think everybody's if you ask people what their one of their biggest fears is someone in a group of 10 is going to say stuck in an elevator for sure is that one of your biggest fears no yeah i don't really have that one either i'll admit right now what my biggest fear is one of my biggest fears is okay let's hear it being stuck in a cave
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Let me just tell you, I do not spelunk, okay? I do not spelunk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Oh, it's just like I would just never want to do it. You know, I've seen enough movies. For whatever reason, YouTube has got me trapped in this algorithm of just sharing terrible stories of cave divers dying. Oh, my gosh. And I'd never want to be in that position. I would never want to be... Could you imagine... Picture this in your brain. Okay. I'm going to close my eyes. You are on your belly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Okay. And directly above you is rock for as far as you can think of.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Below you is rock for as far as you can think of. To the right and left of you is rock as far as you can think of. And you have a helmet on with a light that may have a batter that dies eventually. You've got limited supplies and you're crawling for fun through this tunnel that Other people may have died in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
And you may discover a body 20 yards up or whatever. And you're not even sure if at some point you haven't opened enough to turn back around.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Emphatically, no for me. It's a hard no. So my fear is not even plausible because I would never do that. But if someone held me at gunpoint and was like, Adam, you've got to go through this cave to live, I would say shoot me now, okay? Because I'm not going to do it. Shoot me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
I hadn't rewatched Fight Club in forever. Oh, yeah. I haven't seen it for a long time. And I was like, man, I don't even own this film. So I bought it on Blu-ray because it's not on 4K. And for whatever reason, whenever I go in to make MKV to rip it, it was naming all the files a dot.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
I liked it. Let's cut that into the video, man. Let's get a little clip in there. Will we get demonetized for that? We're not even trying to monetize. No, man, we're not making any money.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
It was in her list.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Truth be told, this is on our reading list, not our read list. So it's to be read. Oh, for you? It's on my to-read list. Yeah, it's not my have-read list. Oh, okay. So you wanted to read it together. Yeah, I wanted to mention it. I think in light of ghosty, I think in light of, I'm still a warp for life kind of person.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Kudos to Warp. It is so smooth and so fast. And so the way Mitchell described it in that podcast, which we'll link up in the show notes and probably throw a YouTube link in there or whatever, if that's a possibility, is that he was talking about the, if I understood it correctly, he was saying that it was fraught with possible error. Unpredictable, I think is the word he used. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Well, Warp has got it locked in because there's never a time I want to do anything. It's as if the prompt is like a text editor. What I mean by that is if you're in Sublime or in VS Code or if you're in any modern text editor, you can just jump around with the arrow key and alt and command and shift and stuff and do things. That's how it works. It's very much like you're in a prose editor.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
And so all the files I was ripping, each one of them was a dot, and it had an increment, but all the files were hidden. And I didn't notice it until I went back after it was done. And I was like, where the heck is all the, I see that it's successfully ripped, but where's all the files? And I'm like, oh yeah, these are hidden files. Let me go and fix this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
And I love that. I think that they nailed that well. And no matter where you're at, too, as long as you've got a space in there, you can do a tab, and it will try and complete something in that directory you're in, like a README or a TOML file or whatever it might be to sort of link to it. I think Warp has done really, really a great job. And so until...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Until and if, I suppose, if Ghostie solves that problem or desires to solve that problem, I'm a Warp for Life kind of guy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Okay, check. You can do multi-paste commands.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Well, as an example to test, I just did brew list and brew update because I'm like, those are safe commands I can run without any concerns. Right. I paste those into the prompt, and nothing happened. It's blinking cursor waiting for me to say go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
I don't understand why this is a modern feature she desires, but what happened though when I did push return, was it brew listed and then it brew updated? Yeah, it does them both. Yeah, but it doesn't do it automatically on paste.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
I think that is a modern feature because I want to, I think that's smart because you want to, you may have fat fingered the copy and you paste a missing copy, but you didn't get the whole thing. Maybe you missing fingered the copy. Okay, missing fingers. Yeah, those happen. You know, you got a character that didn't come with you, and it's like, well, this is a malformed command.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Well, friends, before the show, I am here with a new friend of mine, Scott Dietzen, CEO of Augment Code. I'm excited about this. Augment taps into your team's collective knowledge, your code base, your documentation, your dependencies. It is the most context-aware developer AI, so you won't just code faster, you'll also build smarter. It's an ask-me-anything-for-your-code.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
And I'm like, well, there's like 25 of them in this directory. I'm not going to go one by one inside a terminal and rename these things. And I'm also not going to think about a script to automate renaming these things. So what did I do? I went to my good friend, ChatGPT. And I said, I copied the directory, and I said, I've got on a Mac, I need to rename all these files so they're not hidden.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Right, but wouldn't that just error? I mean, I guess it probably would, but, you know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Let's see. I don't know if this is a warp feature. It's a shell thing. It's a shell. Yeah, it's like a configuration thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Okay. A2N.sh. A-T-U-I-N.sh.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Well, thankfully, a Google search landed me on terminal features on the warp documentation. And I will tell you, they have an entire grid of features that are in modern, quotes, modern terminals. Warp is in the list, obviously, because it's their documentation. Terminal.app is in there. iTerm, Alacrity, and Westerm is in there. So, Ghosty has not made the list yet.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
So, for 24-bit true color, it's a yes for Warp. It is a no for Terminal.app. It is a yes for iTerm. It is a yes for Alacrity. I can't say that. Alacrity. Alacrity. Thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
alacrity alacrity whiz term is yes as well so those the one that's missing is terminal.app so if you're using terminal.app Jared then you know which I'm not I haven't used it for a long time not anymore but you you were recently I haven't used it this year at all his criticism was on point okay there you go that's a good thing to say 13 14 days into the year good job I haven't used that all year clipboard integration she lists sure of course you want to have that I don't know how does that work clipboard integration you know I feel like that's copy paste right
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Conflating the modern terminal with the modern terminal experience, I believe. So she's describing the experience you want.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Sorry for the criticism, but that's what she's describing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
They are all themable.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Ideally, they'd be in sequential order of sorts. And it gave me a script. I put that script in, and boom, all my files were there. I mean, that is the beauty of this word calculator, Jared. Like, I don't have to think about any of that stuff. Sure, I could have. It would have been a fun exercise, but... It had been a, you know, what do you call it? A squirrel, a yak to shave.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
That's that. Well, I would say that Warp checks most of those boxes because they're not all terminal-specific things, and it can do all those things without any regard. So boom.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Somebody said that, what was the chatter in Zulu? I didn't get to read it, and it was over my weekend, so I was just checking it. Did you see that mention?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
So one thing we have to do, and to be clear, if you're listening to this in audio, we have transitioned and in the process of transitioning to be video first. And that means full length episodes, chaptered, the full kit and the caboodle. That's right. In YouTube. And so what I'm noticing we're missing on our episode page, Jared, is a link or some sort of awareness of YouTube. So we're iterating.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Obviously, we haven't gotten there yet. So I think the comment may have been on YouTube on this episode. And I think it was somebody commenting about how many points you may have gotten Or I'm misremembering.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Somebody confirmed that it was just a sound.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
There was a D word that got bleeped, thankfully.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
So maybe I'm missing this. I thought somebody said something about how many points you had gotten. And I guess I'm wrong because I can't find it. So I dreamt it. I think I dreamt this about you losing officially. But I guess you didn't lose officially. Well, I can see where maybe in your dreams I would lose. Somebody did concur, Skulk Neithling, on YouTube in comments.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Yep, people believe that he, Mandela, passed away in jail during the 1980s. That's right. See, that's a big deal there. That's a big deal. Anyways, we are on YouTube.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
I'd have been there for 20 minutes thinking about this versus one, not even one. After the races, Fight Club is renamed and boom, it's on Plex and I'm watching it and I'm happy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Nothing changes. You can hang here if you want to. But if you want to see us, I would say maybe a slightly more high fidelity, especially as we're talking through things and stuff like that. We're going to have the screen up in the video on YouTube. So if you get to a point in the show and you're like, man, I really wish I could see that. Well, you can.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Just remember the time mark and roughly around the same time frame on YouTube, you will find the same section that you're listening to because they're not the exact same timeline. So the YouTube version and the audio version may be of different lengths. They may be of different spots. So your mileage may vary.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
That being said, you can have higher fidelity, slightly more context if you desire it via full length video podcasts on YouTube. Boomshaka, that's coming to you. I do have a bonus, Jerry. Can we do a bonus for our Plus Plus folks? Can we end the show and then do one bonus?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Change log plus plus. It's better. Sonos CEO Patrick Spence steps down after disastrous app launch. I can concur. They have basically ruined Sonos. Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, like, it's not... The app used to be so easy to use, or at least easy-ish. It wasn't the best. It could use some improvements, and the improvements they made were not improvements. They were detriments, okay?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
It's your deep-thinking buddy. It's your Stan Flo antidote. Okay, Scott. So for the foreseeable future, AI assisted is here to stay. It's just a matter of getting the AI to be a better assistant. And in particular, I want help on the thinking part, not necessarily the coding part. Can you speak to the thinking problem versus the coding problem and the potential false dichotomy there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Well, if you watch the video, I actually think we may be mischaracterizing it. I mean, I know it's not feature-rich in terms of its future. But I think they're planning to kind of keep it around and do some things. I don't think it's literally a dead dog. I think it still works, obviously. Yeah, it still works. But TikTok still works.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Yeah, I think that you crossing off the list for this purpose may be, you know. Foolish? Yeah, I think so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
So what you're saying is AI truly is mainstream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Right. I mean, like this is it. It provided a better result. It found something nothing else resulted in the Googles of the world, the DuckDuckGoes of the world. Right. You know, as you were sharing your story, too, I was logging into Perplexi because I've had a an account there, but I don't use it very frequently. And I was like, how do I get in here?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Because I don't have it saved in my 1Password. And so I'm like, I know I have these Google options. I would always use email. Maybe I did. So then I had to go back to my email and search perplexity. And sure enough, I used my email to get in. Long story short, I hate that. I hate not knowing how I got in somewhere. I almost never use SSO.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
Almost never use Google or Facebook or whatever to log in or GitHub even. If you force me to do that, I do not like it. Email is my friend, not the enemy being my friend. Anyways, what I like about this is it says, what do you want to know now? Or what do you want to know? And it's got this question box. And then it's got what?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Other people's robots (Friends)
recent scores uh stocks some news ticking it's like a little news ticker and it's got the weather for me nearby so it's kind of like being the yahoo of your right like it's trying to be this potential home page go here let your day begin here and boom you've got this place to kind of go and hang out at answer questions get better results and get your news and scores and stuff
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
We didn't highlight that much, though, in our post. There's nothing changing about Kaizen. Kaizen is now embedded into the ChangeLog podcast itself. Just to be super, super clear, it was implicit. It will be more explicit here. There's nothing changing about Kaizen. In fact, I think it won't get more frequent.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I think it might get better because I think, Jared, to your point, I think you and I might have more time to do more development to make... us less like Gerhard, what did you make? So that we can have a podcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Okay, Sentry is always shipping, always helping developers ship with confidence. That's what they do. Check out their launch week details in the link in the show notes. And of course, check out Session Replay's new edition mobile replay in the link in the show notes as well. And here's the best part. If you want to try Sentry, you can do so today with $100 off the team plan.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Can we just skip to the end? Can we just not do this middle part? This is why we need to have video podcasts too, because you listen to naughty all these years, have not seen the extreme laughter we've had on this podcast in particular. That's true. as a video. You may have seen it in clips, but you haven't seen the full length.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I've resisted hardcore, but yes, continue.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Totally free for you to try out for you and your team. Use the code CHANGELOG. Go to sentry.io. Again, sentry.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
What's up, friends? I'm here with Cal Carberry, co-founder and CTO at Coder.com. So Coder.com is a cloud development environment, a CDE, and you run all the clouds, AWS, Azure, GCP, you run on-prem, and you're no stranger to competition, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
The competition out there is well-known, but what shocks you, what surprises you about the state of cloud development environments and how developers are leveraging them?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
So I've used Docker, I've used VMs, but take me into the technical details. What is it that's different between a VM and running something in Docker?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
jank it just makes more sense to give them a vm that we know works well it might be time to consider a cloud development environment and open source is awesome and coder is fully open source you can go to coder.com get a demo or try it right now or even start a 30-day trial of coder enterprise once again coder.com that's c-o-d-e-r.com coder.com
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Amazing. It's awesome. I think it's easier to track and follow better than Slack. When I go back to Slack now, I feel like I'm in some sort of archaic way of communicating, which is just like, just throw it at the wall, and if you see it, cool. You can't compartmentalize conversations.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Threading is obviously there, but it's not the same as Zulipit's threaded conversations for teams is what their mantra is, basically. The one key thing I think that makes it look different in terms of how you interact with it as a user to communicate is that everything is based on a topic.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Oh, you're talking about CPU.fm and the change we're making. Oh, yes. This is good stuff. So there's a very famous person. His name is Newton, at least. Sir Isaac? And Isaac Newton. Sir Isaac Newton. And he said to go... To paraphrase him and to paraphrase a very awesome movie, humans, the only one they've found to move forward in life or to get somewhere is to leave something behind.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
So if you're starting something new, you're beginning a new topic, which can be to some degree daunting because you think, well, if I want to say something, I must have a place to say it. And if there's no place to say it, then you feel like, oh, I got to create it. So is it that important? Maybe that's what stops you from communicating. Right. I don't fully disagree with that sentiment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I kind of wish there was a merger of the worlds where you have like a single place in Zulu that is non-threaded where it's just like, this is where the everything goes. Then I can kind of feel the angst against that. Cause like if your principle is it must communication must correspond with a topic in your, that's your way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I can understand why they've sort of hearkened into their ways to not do that. But as a user, I kind of want the Slack world in a way where it's just like everything goes where it can go, like a main channel, for example. And then also still have the topic world. But topic-based, inside of Arzolip, we have the different podcasts, their episodes. You can comment on a Kaizen 17, for example.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
It's really compartmentalized, which I like a lot. And those threads are long lived. Like we've got this WordPress drama thread that was not started by me or Jared. It was started by the community and it's still being active today. Whereas in Slack, that conversation would have just died and got reborn. And the context of prior conversations isn't there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
So you have this community, keep it together, long run conversations that can be potentially months, maybe even years. And that's just not equally as possible in Slack. You can do it. It's just not present so easily in the UI. That's what I love about Zulu.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And so as part of that idea and mantra, we have decided to change things in 2025 to focus solely on making this podcast you're listening to right now, The single best developer podcast experience. News on Monday, interviews on Wednesday, Fridays on the weekend or on Friday mostly. And that's going to be some fun stuff. So that's what we're doing. Some of our favorite shows are going away.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
It would be nice to just not have to have it as an option so that you miss conversations or have to track one more place. I think the sad part about our Slack is that it is a free Slack. And so that means after the rolling time schedule they have, conversations just go away. And that's not cool. I just really hope that Slack goes away for us. I love Slack.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I, you know, my real hope, I suppose maybe if I rewinded prior to Zulu, my, I have two hopes. Uh, I would love Slack to support communities better and support, uh, non enterprise, not so that they can, uh, I think there's just so many people who have Slack embedded into their world. It's not going away. I'm part of other Slack, so Slack isn't going to go away for me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
It might go away for ChangeLog, but it's not going to go away for me as an individual human being. Same. I would love it if Slack supported communities better. And that way, places like ChangeLog could have had some sort of relationship that didn't have to be free. We don't want to be freeloaders to Slack. We would love to pay, but we have...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
7,000 people in Maine at one point, not all of them active, but if we had to pay for everybody in there, OMG, we would go broke, right? We can get it sponsored maybe, but then it's like, well, does that really add value to a sponsor to support that Slack channel? Maybe. I mean, there might be ways we could do it, but it would be kind of maybe icky to enable that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
So I just would love Slack to revisit the idea of the ubiquity and embeddedness that they have with developers and the community aspect that just doesn't get to foster without paying large sums of money. Find a different business model that supports those folks. I think you'd change some things. Second, I think that Zulip has so much potential.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And I say that not in a negative way in the fact they're not reaching it, but they have so much potential to reach lots of people. I've had to say to people, we don't use Slack anymore. We use Zulip. And they're like, what is that? That is an absolute shame. That's what that is. Because Zulip is so cool. It's open source. There's an amazing team behind it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
They have an iOS app, an Android app, a web app. But for the faults that Jared mentioned, I think they're held back by some beliefs they have that have just held them back. But then again, their held back may be perception for me and not them. Their held back is like, no, we're doing exactly what we want to do. We're reaching communities and they're supporting us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Like we fit perfectly in their world in terms of how we as a community use Zulip. I just think they could more thoroughly compete with Slack if they changed a couple of things. I don't know how to say that really in this podcast, but there's opportunity there. There's hidden potential they can seize. And I hope they do it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Transitioning, moving on, spinoffing, continuations. But that's what we're doing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
My two hopes are Slack support communities better and Zulu to reach their full potential. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Would love that. I would concur and plus one that because that would make me click a chapter start time easily because it would be clickable for one and I want to now. I want to, but I can't. And I cannot do that. Yeah. I will say that when we go to a video first world and we're bifurcated temporarily while we have interview, this is sort of somewhat in the weeds.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
We may roll out one show as video first and the next second, it might make that integration slightly more harder, but you know. Mm-hmm. Because it might need to link to YouTube, for example, to a timestamp versus to our site as a timestamp.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Hence the workflow challenges we've talked about in the new era for the ChangeLog podcast universe.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Yeah, two cuts. It's like a director trying to do like, oh, here's the extended cut and the theatrical and the, you know, producer's version of it all in the same release. Like, no, that doesn't happen, right? The extended cut always comes later. It's usually like, oh, that was much better. Or in the case of Ridley Scott, that was much worse because he likes his original cuts better first. Wow.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
On that note, though, we've really enjoyed producing Go Time, GS Party, Ship It, and Practically Online. Like, we loved the people, the shows. Like, Jared will tell you, because he hasn't spoken about it yet, at least in this podcast. We really deliberated over this for a while.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
That's how you roll. It is.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
PR is actually aligned with the idea of topics in Zulip. Like, you know, to get code into a repo, your way is PR driven, topic driven.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I would say so long so that it's probably at least a year or more of considering how to change to get to where we're trying to go. And it was a struggle because it's not easy to retire something, move on from something, to give someone or an entire world of audience bad news. And that's not something that you do quickly or lightly. You do it with intention and precision.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Okay, cool. 2025, name.so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And even then, even when you do it precisely and with precision and intentionality, it's still hard to get it right. And so there's no really good version. Some will be upset. And that's how it goes, I guess.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
What's up, friends? I love my eight sleep. Check them out. Eight sleep dot com. I've never slept better. And, you know, I love biohacking. I love sleep science. And this is all about sleep science mixed with AI to keep you at your best while you sleep. This technology is pushing the boundaries of what's possible in our bedrooms. Let me tell you about Eight Sleep and their cutting edge Pod 4 Ultra.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
So what exactly is the Pod? Imagine a high-tech mattress cover that you can easily add to any bed. But this isn't just any cover. It's packed with sensors, heating and cooling elements, and it's all controlled by sophisticated AI algorithms. It's like having a sleep lab, a smart thermostat, and a personal sleep coach all rolled into one single device.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And the pod uses a network of sensors to track a wide array of biometrics while you sleep. It tracks sleep stages, heart rate variability, respiratory rate, temperature, and more. And the really cool part is this, it does all this without you having to wear any devices. The accuracy of this thing rivals what you would get in a professional sleep lab.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
But our intention is to love well and to love the hosts and panelists we work with for many years very well and to ease this process of them either spinning off something to do their own thing, which almost every show has some version of that. Continuation. Actually, every one of them does. JS Party has a new show called Dysfunctional.fm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
That means that it updated and changed my temperature to cool to warm and helped me fine tune exactly where I wanted to be with precision temperature control to get to that maximum REM sleep. And sleep is the most important function we do every single day. As you can probably tell, I'm a massive fan of My 8 Sleep, and I think you should get one. So go to 8sleep.com slash changelog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And right now they have an awesome deal for Black Friday going from November 11th through December 14th. The discount code changelog will get you up to $600 off. off the pod for ultra. When you bundle it again, the code to use is changelog and that's from November 11th through December 14th. Once again, that's eight sleep.com slash changelog. I know you love it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I sleep on this thing every night and I absolutely love it. It's a game changer and it's going to change your game. Once again, 8sleep.com slash changelog. And also by our friends over at Wix, I've got just 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio, the web platform for freelancers, agencies, and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on studio. Number one,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Well, before the show, I'm here with Jasmine Cassis from Sentry. Jasmine, I know that session replay is one of those features that just once you use it, it becomes the way. How widely adopted is session replay for Sentry?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Integrate, extend, and write custom scripts in a VS Code-based IDE. Two, leverage zero setup dev, test, and production environments. Three, ship faster with an AI code assistant. And four, work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Wix Studio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Well, my time is up, but the list keeps going on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Step into Wix Studio and see for yourself. Go to wix.com slash studio. Once again, wix.com slash studio.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Nick, K-Ball, Amy, GoTime has a spin-off called Fall Through.fm. Chris, Ian, and more. Extended friends from our existing podcast. Family of people who listen. Ship It has its own spinoff called FAFO.FM. Folk around and find out. Cool. Love that. Justin and Autumn. And then Practically I, they're keeping their name because Chris and Daniel were unique. We've been working with them for many years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Probably the longest running show. And independently, they had no other panelists.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Just those two for many years. And, you know, it's just a labor of love to produce these shows. It's a treadmill in the media world. And we've been doing this for 15 years. It's not like we've been doing this for a day. You know, we've got some reps under our belt. You know, we're swole, so to speak, in the podcast. It's funny to say out loud, but we've been doing this for a while.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
You know what's funny about VCR? It stands for video cassette recorder. But you would use a VCR to play.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
primarily right as a user you could do both for both I know you can but like generally most people assimilate or you know think of the VCR as you put a cassette in and you play it is all I'm trying to say is like the general usage is not so much the R part of it it's the VCP video cassette player
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And I think just having a chance to sort of pause for a moment and think about, okay, to produce a really good podcast that has a video first production workflow to do that, even for this show that produces three shows a week. We have no more bandwidth to do it. We would only be able to do that if we scale the team or if we just didn't do it and we haven't done it for many years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
New things get born. So a CDN is born. The stars in the sky.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Like beyond so down. Can I share some behind the scene nuggets? This is fresh. This is on a pod coming to you soon. Actually next Wednesday. So on Wednesday of this week, which is the week of, I guess the 4th?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
What was Monday? The 2nd?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
You go on YouTube and you have clips only, which is great, but people have been asking us for years, can I get the full show on YouTube, the full video show? And I think there's opportunity costs there, not doing it. We've missed out on audience growth, connection, more in-depth content, etc. And the only way to get there really is to make a major change. That's what we did. But I think cpu.fm...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
It's December 6th. So on December 4th, I had a conversation with Kurt Mackey. And I think you know his name because he's one of the founders and CEO of Fly.io, which we know and love here. Obviously, I love Fly so much. It's so cool. And during that conversation, because we talked about Tigris and the Rebel Alliance, he said it out loud on the pod. So I thought it was secret.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
We talked deeply about the Rebel Alliance and all the things that he had envisioned for it. And he's not, I won't spoil it. Let's just say that's not the point I'm trying to make. I said, go to this URL and tell me what you think about this. And I mentioned this Pipe Dream idea. And I had forgotten about Pipe Lee until this moment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
In terms of a name, I laughed so hard the last time I said it, and I'm the one that said it. But... Or already mentioned in the podcast. And so that conversation was focused around, you know, the pipe dream idea. And he looked at it. He's like, I love this. This is so cool. I can't believe you guys are doing this. So I'll just say that in the fact that Kurt is excited about this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And there is this idea of a rebel alliance. Just saying. So we have support and a blessing. Yeah. And a fan. Yeah. And a name. And a name. And a story. And a domain.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Gosh, it really does begin with a name and a domain because you can have a good name. I was actually bummed. I was like, holy crap, somebody took Pipely.tech? Who had this idea? Yeah. That is so cool. Yeah. I mean. You did. I just had the execution. Hey, that's cool. Let's go for it. I love the creativity though. I love the idea that this might be Jedi, honestly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And this is a futuristic city with this star out there. The rebel alliance is born. Yeah. I think this is just really, it plays in well. I like it a lot. I'm beyond excited. I don't know how much to share in this podcast, but I'm like beyond excited.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
To rewind the conversation back to the beginning, like Jared said something to me, Jared and I don't see each other face-to-face too frequently, a couple of times a year. And it actually, I'll say this on the air, I think I said this in face-to-face, but he said to me, he's like, Adam, when you tell me new ideas, I just like almost immediately cancel them because we have no time to do anything.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And I'm paraphrasing what you said, but the sentiment is roughly there. So correct me, Jared, if you want to. But it kind of bummed me out because I'm generally not so much the idea guy, but like someone sort of like generating vision in some way, shape or form.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And like when he said that, I also thought in my brain in the moment, like, gosh, I've kind of stopped like casting any sort of vision in my own brain because I'm kind of tapped too. So like anytime I have a new idea, I don't have any room to explore it because we're doing all the ideas we can essentially, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And I think, and I don't know where Jared's at with this, but I would so make room for, I think this certainly makes room for Pipely. And it's certainly the main thing because we need an amazing CDN. And I shared in that podcast with Kurt some of the challenges. He said, well, you know, Adam, that Fastly and Cloudflare and every CDN out there, it's not in their best interests
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
to cash all of your content on all their pops across the globe forever. That's not in their best interest. There's cash misses, not because they can't cash it, because they don't want to. And so the CDN we build, that we want to build, will always cash everything you need to across the globe, and it will only expire when you say this is expired. There will never be a cash miss in this world.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And that, to me, is what a CDN is. And so if we can build that world, I think other people like that, that world. And I think people don't need, and this is even Kurt concurring this, like, I don't think everybody needs what these larger CDNs can offer or do offer because they just offer so much more than you need. So I think there's a lot of, a lot of opportunity here, honestly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
is a big vision burgeoning new idea that hasn't, doesn't have the full fruition yet, but it has a big vision. So I think what we'll do to support these shows and to support this change, all podcast universe was called cpu.fm. I think it has big opportunity. And so I think if people continue to trust us, join cpu.fm, let us support them. But they produce their own shows.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
On, I guess, a different note, how close are we to this pipe dream not being a pipe dream? How real and how quickly can this be truly real if it's not real?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I don't mean Pipely the company or anything like that. I mean, like our usage of pipe dream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
The thing becoming real for us as the first, in quotes, customer, if that's the thing. Like true usage, does it make sense? Can it scale for us? Is it truly DevEx usable, et cetera? And then I think everything else after that is just like comes natural if it makes sense.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Well, we still have to determine if the way we send logs, the faster way is the way of the future. We know that we like a lot about what that does, real time, et cetera. I'm assuming that's what you mean by that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
We're no longer part of the media machine they are, where we're helping them ship shows daily, weekly. That's a tough one. It's arduous.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
What about swapping out Tigers for that? Or MinIO or MinIO if we wanted to not S3 it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Where should we end this pod? Should we end it right here? The possibility of these Jedi wise dudes bringing to fruition the Pipely dream?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Yeah. And that really brings my heart a lot of joy, honestly. I like relationships that stand the test of time, really. Obviously, that's a good thing for relationships, but it brings me a lot of joy. That's all I'll say, I guess. I'm excited. Pipely.tech. We have it. OMG. We have it. It's real. A new CDN is born. Let's do it. Kaizen. Kaizen. Kaizen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
So I know one of the things that developers waste so much time on is reproducing some sort of user interface error or some sort of user flow error. And now there is session replay. To me, it really does seem like the killer feature for Sentry.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
That's the first time I've heard that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
Yeah. You know, just to laser focus on one specific thing that I've personally had angst with is that we've had a great opportunity to help many brands reach developers over the years. Like obviously we're sponsored. Most podcasts are. Any podcast that's sustainable or being sustained is usually sponsored in some way, shape or form.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
You find any podcast out there, the biggest ones out there, even Joe Rogan, like he's, he's sponsored. You know, we've had this ceiling of ability to help folks because we have limited shows. I really believe that Jared and I are pretty good tastemakers. And I think the idea with CPU is pretty cool. And we want to help more of those brands reach more developers. And we had a ceiling.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
I would often tell folks, because I'm a big, big helper when I work with these different brands. And I know that I'm like, I can only help you this well with the shows I command under our belt. And I think that Jared and I are two people. We have limited bandwidth. We add folks onto our team as necessary over the years to support us in producing podcasts. But at some point, we had a limit.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
And now we have so much more opportunity to help more brands reach more developers through CPU. So I think that's the coolest thing for me. I think being able to expand that to, you know, 10 or 15 podcasts with an index, with a single subscribe point for many really awesome developer podcasts that join this community. I would say somewhat of a movement in a way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
World-class developer podcasts, like that's a cool thing in my opinion. And we have this big vision that is literally at the spark of the moment at cpu.fm. And I have, and we have a big vision for it. And I think it'll be good for us, good for, like Jared said, the awesome shows that will come from it. But I think more importantly, helping developer brands reach developers is really, really hard.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Three wise men? (Friends)
The ones who have a good story, they're just so new. They need great awareness, but they're just so brand new in that story. They have almost nowhere to easily go to execute, to get the word out of who they are, what they do. And that self-serving way, to me, is one cool way that I see a much more bigger opportunity for them and for us and for the shows that get supported from it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The indispensable cog (Friends)
Finally it's time for changelogging friends With Adam and Jared and some other rando We hope that you love it and stay until the end We're not offended if you can't go We know you're probably busy coding And your deadline is pretty foreboding Your caffeine intake is an actual problem, so why don't we walk outside? And we can listen to Change Logging Friends with Adam and Jared in Silicon Valley.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The indispensable cog (Friends)
We know one day the gag will come to an end, but honestly that will probably be our finale. We bet you sling A1s and 0s. Bye. Bye. Bye.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Why is it so good?
The Startup Ideas Podcast
Niche Startup Ideas: Hedge Fund Data/Info Business, Expert Network, & AI-Generated Kids' Music
What the hell is it called? It's like Mango. Yeah, it's called Hmm, That's Strange.
The Startup Ideas Podcast
Niche Startup Ideas: Hedge Fund Data/Info Business, Expert Network, & AI-Generated Kids' Music
Mango cheese eggs? Donuts.