Adam
Appearances
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Uh-oh. I don't hear you. Oh, it's probably me. Oh, my volume is down. Wait, what? You can hear me? Yeah. Okay. But why are you such a jerk? Huh?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
That sounds nice, actually. I think about it on the podcast. Just how much... Yeah, I know. I mean, it's mostly making fun of... I think we're just kind of both like... We don't like a lot of things that that particular company stands for. It's just like... all the money raised, the front end being this big deal. There's just a lot about that space that's really annoying to me.
How About Tomorrow?
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So I just, it's very easy to make fun of. But yeah, I would love if we talked about it less. It's just, it is hard. Like the nature of what you guys work on, it just comes up.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
That's a good point.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. People are still going to, by and large, choose Vercel. The people they're converting are trying to convert. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Well, now I've been perusing your Twitter and I just have so many questions because I'm not... I'm not seeing these live. One first, not a question, an observation. Liz, waking up and being mad at you. Casey gets mad at me about Dream Adam all the time. I do stuff in her dreams and I'm like, it wasn't me. You realize I didn't do that, right? Yeah. But what if you did? I didn't.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I literally didn't.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Stop waking up and going back to sleep.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I've never had a negative dream about Casey. I'm like a puppy, I guess. I've never had a dream where Casey did something bad. I don't know. I'm just naive.
How About Tomorrow?
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I've never had a dream where I was mad at Casey because of something she did in my dream. She's never done anything in my dreams that was something I'd be mad about, I guess. That's funny. I don't have a lot of dreams. Do you ever think people are either like puppies or kittens? Like people are either cats or dogs. Like I'm more of a dog. I'm kind of like, like I'm just happy about everything.
How About Tomorrow?
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Like play with me in case he's more of like a cat. She's a deep thinker. Like she can hold grudges. She can like, yeah, just, yeah, yeah, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Okay. More tweets. Cause we're not, we're going to run out of time. Uh, there's so many, so many questions. Uh, but this one's a quick one. What was your sponsor tweet today? Again? PP poopoo. What is this?
How About Tomorrow?
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Now you're looking for a job.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
He said, he'll give me a dollar. That's too funny.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
So look at that. And then his tweet calling you a sellout. I love it. Okay. That was fun. I'm glad I asked. Let's see. What's going to disrupt the whole industry? You quote tweeted, Sunil.
How About Tomorrow?
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Verso might be hiring. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I'm so excited that we can finally talk about this. You're so obsessed with containers lately. What happened to you? This container guy. Sorry, continue.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Do you just have Docker running on your Mac all the time now?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Like some kind of animal?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
All the time. I hear it's better on Linux. Sorry, I'm derailing.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, on Mac, it means something.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I'm not smart enough to know what, but it means my machine is crippled, and so I don't run Docker. Continue, container boy.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
It's just a tool that we haven't really had. All kinds of new possibilities. Yeah. Yeah. So you've been an investor in Cloudflare for a long time. Am I too late to invest in Cloudflare? Did I miss? No, dude. Are they still in the early, early, like in terms of the stock? Sorry.
How About Tomorrow?
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But you call them a hyperscaler. They're already considered... I don't know where they fit. If you take, let's say, Google, Azure, and AWS in one little bucket, I don't know if any other companies belong in that bucket, Oracle or something, I don't know. But if you take those big, big ones... And then you take the Flies and the Rinder and whatever, all those other littler companies.
How About Tomorrow?
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Where does Cloudflare sit? If 10 is the AWS and then one is the little companies, is it closer to the big ones or closer to the little ones?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
And by building a platform, you mean like data centers, the whole... No, no, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I would say Cloudflare is way more on the... Well, yeah. I should have realized like public company. That's a tell. Like obviously they're... a large company in that case. Yeah. And they need to absorb DDoS traffic, you know? Yeah. And that's when you say their core business, that's where they started, right? Just the, like the security at the edge kind of thing. That was their main business.
How About Tomorrow?
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And then they turned, they turned that into this whole cloud platform.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, and they're better at that stuff than AWS. There's not great options on the AWS side. I mean, there are options, and I guess the cost...
How About Tomorrow?
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Yeah. Who are the people doing DDoS and like why? I don't know. Some of them seem so random. Like if I have a public endpoint up that's not affiliated with anything big and it starts getting DDoS, it's like, why?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
uh-huh like we have dev and staging environments that are not like publicly crawlable or like discoverable in any way and it's amazing if you just look at logs just for any internet property anything publicly facing just the amount of noise on the internet the amount of requests from like random i guess there's like wordpress exploits and all these weird things that all these bots are just peppering the internet with it reminds me of like
How About Tomorrow?
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It makes me think of all the radiation just flying around in space. It just feels like this crazy amount of noise that if you tap in, you just say, I'm available on the internet. Boom, you just start getting peppered with all that stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh, yeah. It's like doing a missile launch. Yeah, exactly. It was like a test launch. Okay, we can do that. Now we know if we need to take down a government. Yeah. Two terabytes a second, no problem. We got it.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. I mean, if I just start thinking about some of this stuff very long, it just kind of blows my mind, like what we have accomplished as humans. You just start thinking about all the underwater cables, what the internet physically is, and then like... all the software layers upon layers upon layers that have gotten us this point and all the possibilities.
How About Tomorrow?
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Like we start talking about these weird, obscure things people do that I would never do. It's just like, there's whole worlds that exist digitally and physically that I just don't know anything about. And I'm a technologist. Like I feel like I'm more plugged in than the average person by a lot. And it just kind of boggles the mind. Us humans, we're pretty clever.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Like Pixel, what is that called? Pixel streaming? I think that's what it's called.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I'm realizing I'm confused about how this works. It's not in the browser. There's like an app you run.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
It's like a generic shell. Oh, it can be in the browser.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
But how do you, how do you use it? You run some kind of client app and then any game can be played through it.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
So there's a platform that you're using for this, I guess? It's an NVIDIA thing?
How About Tomorrow?
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I mean, how many months before you'd buy that GPU at $20 a month? Four years. And there'll be crazier GPUs by then and crazier games, I'm sure.
How About Tomorrow?
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Yeah, that's the case where, like, a month's subscription is good. You still have to buy the game. There's lots of things. Oh, okay. So, like, a one-time fee for the game?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. So this is the big like change. I remember as a kid, playing like Super Nintendo and my parents being like, this is crazy. How did they come up with this? Yeah. And like, it was just so beyond anything they could imagine. This is the kind of form of gaming that's coming along that's going to blow us away. Like the things our kids could do that we couldn't do.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
We had to buy cartridges and we had to download games and we had to whatever, buy CD-ROMs. And now they can just stream from the cloud.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
In real time? In real time. The real ships are being tracked anyway, and they have all that data, and they put the real ships in the ocean at the real spots. That's insane. In the right kind of ship.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
This is getting too far. What are they building over there?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
You can get out of the plane on Flight Simulator?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
This is wild. I feel like governments are going to use this to simulate diseases and I don't know, something.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Huh. They should really collaborate like Open Next. Maybe this should be under the Open Next banner. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh, okay. Yeah. So that franchise has always been well regarded, right? It's very crazy accurate. Who is behind that? Was it just some former pilots that got hired by Microsoft and have this passion for this? It's the kind of thing where it feels like there's so much energy and something invested into something. There has to be reasons that they care so much about making this so good.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Or is it just that people like it and they buy it?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Like all the different aircraft cockpits and stuff. Like I've seen the screenshots. It's like, they've really like, they've got all the planes and all the details about the plane. It's just crazy. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Can pilots use this to learn things? I mean, I feel like, do they, I guess? It feels like so much effort put into something for just like...
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, like, he's constantly in Atlanta. He's based out of Atlanta, but he lives here near me. Like, they just commute. They just hop on a plane in the morning and fly to the airport.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
But they have, like, they can just, like, get on a plane to go to the place where they're actually supposed to fly from. It's like... Oh, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
it's a hour and a half flight to atlanta from here so he just has like an hour and a half commute but not a normal commute we're talking like eight hour drive commute i guess there's people that like commute to san francisco from la like rich people that have jobs in silicon valley it's like in our head it's a one and a half hour commute a lot of people have a one and a half hour commute
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. And like twice a week. It's like, it's crazy. pilots, like truck drivers, but classier, much classier. Sorry, brother.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I want to say something here that reminded me to our listeners. It's because sometimes I forget we have listeners and we're not just hanging out. I get a lot of emails or messages after every episode. It's funny, this last one, the number of people that reached out being like, oh yeah, React Native sucks for that. Here's the thing you should use. And I'm already forgetting.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I think it was Capacitor was the consensus. It's just crazy. It's kind of fun to have a podcast where you can just publicly complain about something and then everyone's like, here's answers. Here you go, solutions. Thank you to all of you listeners that offer up information. I don't always reply, not like I'm snooty. It's just like... Uh, you can ask Dax. I don't always reply to stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah. I guess you do say a lot of similar things, things in the same vein about lots of people, companies, whatever. And it doesn't really bother me. I think this one was hard for me because I have a connection to this person. Oh, I see. I hate conflict. Like, I hate... I'm a Midwesterner. I want everyone to be happy and glossy and everything is fine.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I should reply to work related, uh, terminal things. Uh, just sometimes I get busy and I just ignore DMs. That's the first thing to go for me. DMs. It's the first thing I just kind of like wholesale or just communications in general. Like when I'm busy, I got like programming stuff in my brain. I just, I stopped communicating. Sorry.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Out of your sink? Like out of the drain?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Really?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I know you didn't intend probably to delve into the details of this, but I'm going to. Because I just have curiosities. They were coming up from the plumbing department. Out of the drain? Yeah, they're called drain flies. Yeah, yeah. So they're like... Next question is, isn't there like a bend in the pipes that like keeps water at all times? Like how did the flies get through the little bend?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
But yeah, drain flies. It's a thing. Drain flies. Just learned something new today. Yeah. How are the mosquitoes doing since Mosquito Joe did his thing there? If I want to come to Miami soon.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I did not experience that. We did not ever have a day where it was like, we're good today.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
And the connection is literally I use Dracula and have for years. Like, if he didn't invent Dracula as a theme, I wouldn't have cared. But...
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
When is next time? I guess they're talking about React Miami already. Yeah. Are they selling tickets already? Is it that soon? Or do they do it that early?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Did you just get distracted? I feel like I got distracted and you got distracted. A little bit, yeah. We both just got distracted. Maybe it's the same thing. What did you get distracted by?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh, just looking at the clock. That bored, huh?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Next week, special guest. So exciting. We'll keep that as a teaser.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
This episode, as always, is brought to you by Terminal Coffee. You can buy your coffee from the terminal. SSH, terminal.shop. Let's take a break.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Oh, yeah. We might as well give them credit since people think that they're sponsoring. They're not. Believe it. There's no money flowing from Cloudflare to any of us. Well, I think.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Well, enjoy your meeting.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
This meeting can end a little early so you can get on your other meeting. Yeah. Okay. See ya.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Tokyo Night's like the default, isn't it? On like NeoVim or something? I didn't know it was a default.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Before it was a default.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I'm teasing about it being the default, but Dracula is also like super basic, super common.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
So there is a Darkula variant, I think. I see. I want to say that is actually a thing, too. I use Dracula Pro now. I'm levels above the normal Dracula users.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I've gotten in a lot of trouble this week. Are you actually in trouble? Can you actually get in trouble? Is it possible for Dax to be in trouble? And with whom? Is it possible for me to be in? I guess not. Like real trouble. You know what I mean? Not like internet trouble. Oh, no, you've been canceled. You don't care.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Slightly different colors, which I'm sure you could just find on the internet and not have to pay for it.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
You have like the opposite personality. I mean, maybe that's why I like talking with you because I just dream of being able to do the things you do. Like I saw the message you sent him and I'm like, wow, what's it feel like to just be like, now what, what do you want? I just can't, I can't imagine being like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, because ever since the DHH episode, you're like, how can I be more myself?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, I read the Jobs biography, and I'm probably every other tech bro that was like, yeah. I really appreciate that. I think it's more for me. It's less like, ah, he was a tech tycoon. I just want to emulate him. It's more just I'm from the Midwest, and it's like you... Steve Jobs, people who are just direct and just say what they think and feel. I just wish I could be that so badly.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
And I feel like I can't scrub the Midwest off of me, like just 30 something years living here. I just, I can't help but be kind of fake, especially with people I don't know very well. I really wish I could not be. And I think that's the thing I admired like about Steve Jobs, about what I'm seeing in this interaction for you. It just like, It feels very refreshing.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
It's so antithetical to how we interact with people in the Midwest. And maybe that's a blanket statement, but I think it's pretty true. I think it's pretty... East Coast, the whole thing you said about what is really kind, being direct and actually saying what you think and feel, that's kinder than pretending to be kind.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Like you're in imminent danger. That's something you actually have to think about. I don't think I have to worry about that. But that's something you could consider. There's a lot of money on the line, Dax. It's true. There is a lot of money on the line. Something like $300 million. Sorry.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I just, I wish, I wish I were born on the East coast and just had that like, F you attitude, but like coming over later. I don't know. So what'd you do to resell? Yeah. I I'm catching up now. There's, there's some, there's some tweets out there.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Just to clarify for everyone who's not familiar with this world, Open Next does things with a Next build output. But then still, Next is so complicated to deploy, you still need an adapter On top of that, on top of the Open Next piece, to work on a given platform?
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
There's one process to turn a Next.js build directory into... into the thing that works on a given platform. I got you. So it's more of like a branding and then like stewardship. You're taking over stewardship of this Cloudflare thing, I'm sure with their support, but putting it under the Open Next banner.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
It's kind of obvious, but... I was going to say there's one thing I can think of and I just want to say it out loud, but I'm not going to.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
I didn't see that one.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
That's not, that's not common for a defensive top G reply to one of your tweets, right? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Dax Is Definitely Not Sponsored By Cloudflare and Adam is Definitely a Real Human Being
Yeah, I will say, like, during that rant last week, I do feel like, like, I don't know, I wouldn't put that out there publicly. Like, just the things you're saying, I'm kind of surprised.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So like, is it worth, like, I think drones just make those calculations really crazy because you're risking a multimillion dollar thing and someone with like a thousand dollar drone can spend a thousand dollars and like take away millions from you, right? So yeah, the whole asymmetry thing is pretty wild. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I think for people in filmmaking, it just totally... I mean, filmmaking in the loose term, like just people doing... Yeah. Twitch streamers?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay. Well, it's funny because I did have this thought where in every movie you've ever seen, there's always like an overhead shot. There's always overhead shots all the time. Yeah. Yeah. What did they do before drones existed? Did they just buy stock footage? But that's so much crazier. It's like so loud. And it's like rent a helicopter to get this overhead shot.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I mean, even for a movie, it's like. Just to have like a three second overhead shot to set up a scene.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
They had to rent a helicopter and do that. That's like, I mean, that's a lot.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
No, they use a drone. I got my... I think I posted a picture, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's so well thought out. Like, I mean, people in the podcast can't see. But this is like a thing to put my iPhone into. And it like... Has handles and has a built-in SSD in the handle. Oh, built-in SSD in the handle. That's cool. Oh, man, this thing is so up. Okay, so see this? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
This handle right here, here's what's crazy. Inside of it... You can open it like this, and it has a SSD slot.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, yeah. So I put that in there, and then it plugs into my phone, and I just record straight to that. That's pretty awesome. That level of creativity, there's a million little details in here like that. The handles rotate, so you can get different angles. But the reason I brought this up is this is in partnership with some guy named Brandon Lee.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
He's an independent filmmaker, so he always makes it. He'll do a two- or three-minute thing that he films with this. It's crazy how creative they get like they attach this they like create like a they want to like overhead chase footage so they put it on like a zip line and they just let it go. And it, you know, follows the people. Um, they're like, throw it over stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Like they'll do pretty, pretty creative things. And yeah, it like comes out.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
What did you, did you not see this, the thing going around? Do you know that series, that zombie series, uh, 28 hours later, 28 days later, uh, 28 Days Later sounds familiar. Okay, so... Is it a movie? Or is it a series? Yeah, it's a zombie... It's a zombie... Originally a zombie movie, 28 Hours Later, which is like, you know, the idea is 28 hours after a zombie thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay, that's what I remember, yeah. And the sequel is 28 Days Later, which is like, you know, more time has passed. Uh-huh. And now they're doing like 28 Months Later or something. Mm. And it was going around because the whole movie is filmed on an iPhone 15. Yeah. And I was like, wow, that's so crazy. Cause it's, it's not like an indie.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Cause like my perception is like, because you're a white, I'm just like, there's no way it can be that bad. I don't know what it is. I don't know if this makes any sense, but literally I'm just like, okay. Like Adam's like, Oh, I'm always late. I imagine that you're like five or 10 minutes late, you know, because I'm white. Well, cause okay. Like I'm around a lot of people all the time.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay. The first thing I did was like, I want to see them using it.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So I was like looking at pictures and I was like, I can't find any pictures of them using the iPhone. Then I realized that the thing they had in a tripod, which was this giant freaking device, there's an iPhone in there, but it's like, it has like... So they use like crazy cinematography lenses and stuff on an iPhone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some company that...
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's like thousands and thousands of dollars of gear on top of the iPhone.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So it's not that. So it's like, okay. Like interesting. You're basically, you just built a camera. You built your own camera. And like, it's, it's still impressive.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's where it's weak.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I don't know how... The lens can still help with that, but... Yeah, there's definitely certain limitations of what you can and can't do. And I watched a bunch of videos of professional cinematographers like... explaining how far they can go with the iPhone and like where the limits are.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And someone actually went and like did a bunch of shots, like identical shots with both compared to it. Yeah. And it's like, and even, even he said like, technically I'm going to prefer all my camera gear. But the gap is really small. Yeah. And he was like, especially going back to when I was starting out, this is like a million times better than anything I'd ever had like earlier in my career.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's wild. Yeah. The camera stuff obviously like looked better, but man, like it still looks very professional, the iPhone.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Still remember the sound it made? The little beep sound when you press a button? Yeah. No more. Doesn't exist.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I've always been horrible at navigating. So that's huge for me. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well, I wasn't a citizen until like right after the previous election.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's confusing because I've been in the U.S. for 25, 26 years or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I just didn't. Like, I've had a permanent resident green card for a very, very long time, since I was, like, 12 or 13.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And like,
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
they will be one to two hours late and won't even acknowledge it oh so it's a it's a very different thing and like that's intense getting out the door is uh is a challenge and like so like whatever you're saying i'm just like yeah it can't be that bad it can't be that bad okay i'm a i'm a white person how bad can it be don't worry maybe again relative to your community maybe it's you're the worst but maybe if you ever come here you're gonna be like early to everything probably
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. It's exactly like that. But I mean, to be fair, I did apply for it. Like it did take me several years because one, I think this was right when Trump got elected. They slowed, like the process just slowed down a ton. Yeah. And they made a mistake and rejected my application. And when they make a mistake, it already takes them like a year to get back to you.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And then it takes like so much, it takes so much time to like appeal it, then to acknowledge that the mistake and you know, all that stuff. So yeah, it took me super long. Um, but when I got sworn in as a citizen, uh, it was like during the end, it was like during COVID, like not like deep in it. So they brought us all into a room and it was like, it was so weird.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Cause it was an, a giant room with like a grid of chairs, but each chair was like three feet apart from the other one that we were all just like sitting in like, Oh, cause he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, and the judge wasn't physically there. He was doing it over zoom. But what that meant was he could do, he was doing like three of them at a time.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
There was like the one in Manhattan and the one in upstate New York and one in, uh, He was doing three simultaneously. And I'm like, this just... You just increase efficiency by 3x minimum because now there's judges literally in three places at once.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
To be honest, I think every person should have to do that at some point.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. They make you swear all these things. And it's so, it sounds so intense too. Like, you know, I love like dramatic stuff like that. It's like, I, I like forsake any allegiance to any foreign Prince. It's like, it's like lines like that. It's like, it's really intense. I commit to doing that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well, the one that gives you pause, the ultimate downside of being a U.S. citizen is no matter where you go in the world, you owe the U.S. government taxes.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Not every place is like that. Right. Like imagine you leave the U.S. and you go.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Which people do, like there's like billionaires that do that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's right. Okay, here's another funny dynamic. So the U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship. Oh, really? It's this funny thing where you're like, what is dual citizenship? it's just one country being like, ah, it's cool. You know, the other countries have to say it's, yeah, it's cool. The U S does not recognize dual citizenship.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So you basically say like, I like renounce any citizenship, whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. So they have something called India is still like, you're cool. Yeah. That's how they have something called an OSI overseas citizen of India, which I need to apply for. Um, and that lets me, you know, worst case, if something horrible happens, I can go. Yeah. on property there or whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Like just like, but like technically what is your stance? Your stance is you're an American and you shouldn't be. And that's it. You know, you shouldn't be half in half out, which I kind of agree with. Like, I don't, uh, I get it. I think that's maybe the right policy to have. If you're,
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
the country everyone's immigrating to yeah yeah if you're the country where everyone's leaving you're like you'll just do whatever you can to still like have some kind of tie right yeah obviously india a lot of people from india moved to the u.s so it's good for india to like latch on to them somehow yeah you know how there's like a subculture for everything and like there's people who are really into like every most obscure thing you could ever think of yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're in Europe...
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
uh because now they have the eu citizenship thing which is uh so convenient like i'm imagining how bad it was before imagine if you had to deal with it felt like international travel every time you like left missouri just like a different state in the u.s that would be tough yeah because i leave my state all the time i mean you left this week didn't you i guess i did yeah okay yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, you're one of those?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
You were already an adult. You must have driven to Florida at some point.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Wait, you've never been to Europe? You've never been to?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Have you been to, what other countries have you been to?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
What does that mean?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's a freaking river.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Wow. North American AF. AF.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, I know. I had to swim here.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
There was there's some tech stuff we had. Next Conf was this past week. I can't believe we didn't live stream go over like live stream. Well, after that disaster last time.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I forget. Remember, you couldn't figure out the layout. We kept putting ourselves way too much over. And TJ was going nuts in the chat.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Never going to forget that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
There was a slide in the keynote that had Open Next on it.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, this is cool. They gave two Open Next contributors $2,000 each.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I know. Look at that. Who knew? They published SST examples in their repo and their docs, and they're going to, like, publish... They published, like, not just us, like, Render, Netlify, like, a bunch of different examples. Netlify announced that they're joining OpenNex as well. Wow. It's a movement. Yeah. So look at that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And it worked.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
After exhausting all of their options, they just went with this one.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
cool so that's uh that's going on i still think next year sucks just had to get that on the record yeah i know because i i like want to do something with that uh with that still dray so i don't know if you know that dr dray still dray yeah he has like this whole yeah yeah oh yeah like because because everyone sees me being nice to vercell and they're like oh Like, have you changed?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Like, what is this? This is not what we're here for. But listen, I'm still me. I still think Next.js sucks and it's for babies.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It would just hurt. It's weird. You can just turn off the app and it's like, it's like nothing is happening. That's crazy. It just, it just, it just is not real life. And yeah, I can be abrasive and just, it's not open my Twitter and it's like, it doesn't exist. It like literally just doesn't exist. So it's like this universe that literally exists in my pocket and nowhere else.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's funny. The truth is exactly the opposite. I'm like, Oh, Adam's life is going well now. And he's just like, you know, He doesn't like need all this stuff anymore.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's gone. I don't even see any... I mean, I told you, I've shifted to read-only on Twitter. Sorry, write-only. It's funny because you'd think it's read-only. No, it's write-only. No reading. Only writing. Yeah, I actually don't really know what type of stuff is going on.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It means you've peaked at them all downhill from here.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I just don't. Yeah, it's funny because I think it's a combination of you don't care and it's hard for me to separate because I think I'm kind of in a similar place, but I perceive it as nothing is happening.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Does that make sense? I feel like I've been thinking about the exact same thing lately. I had a... So I have a similar situation. Like, I have... I have a friend that... I mean, it's a group of friends, but I'm thinking one specifically that... And I've known all these people since I was, like, in middle school. So people that, you know, I've known for a very long time.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I'm that developer that's like... Oh, you guys use Svelte for content.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, that's the one with all the signal stuff, I think. Cool. Or runes or whatever. Yeah, so I was saying this to somebody else.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
earlier this week um i've been on like a several year journey ever since i left elixir to figure out my tools for the things that i build yeah and i think that journey has come to an end basically like basically everything is solved where day to day my pain point is like just styling and like making stuff look and feel good and everything outside of that
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
is very good and like i don't really have significant problems with it so i think that's also contributing to my lack of interest because yeah Everything's hit my bar and all the problems that I was looking to solve are basically solved.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well, that was the context in which I was talking about this. I was like, I'm way more interested in actually building stuff now than I am improving my tools.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, yeah. Things have gotten decent. There's one or two things I still need to build. I keep begging people to build it, but no one will do it. Like a tool?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I posted this the other day. The last thing I'm missing is a job library for just like the JavaScript ecosystem.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, so I keep being like, someone build this. If you build it, literally, you will get millions of downloads because it's so needed. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Are you going to build it?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
People have enough conviction around it. Yeah, so I'm going to do it. So I'm reworking the console right now so that it uses less AWS-y patterns so that it can run in other places because people need to self-host it.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
in aws but also in other places yeah uh and the key thing that's missing is being able to just do async work without relying on sqs and the lambda or something yeah yeah five flare doesn't have code build i guess yeah no i just mean the general like event stuff like like kicking off an event okay so i'm building something that
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
One of them in particular... was at least particularly close with. So he's having his first baby next month.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
it's an adapter thing so you can have it backed by postgres or mysql or sqs if you like you know have that available um okay yeah cool that's one thing that's like the last so it'll just be like an it'll be like an sst thing or it'll be like a dad no it's just going to be like a library i'm like i see we'll probably have nice support for it but like a normal library that really should have existed i don't know why
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I don't know what people are doing. You got to do async work and you're not using... What are you doing?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Lots of them. Yeah, I know. Every time I bring this up, everyone's like, why don't you just use Ingest? And then they link me to the Ingest self-hosting thing. And I'm like, I'm not fucking going to deploy this three-node architecture so I can kick off the two background jobs that I need to run.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I actually want to build it entirely using AI or using AI in a very different way. I think I mentioned this already. I gave a trial run of doing this already for this using Bolt.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
um which is like this ai thing that from the payment no no there's a payment company called bolt the funny one um this is a new product yeah i need them to add a few more features but when they do i think i should be able to like build up because i'm trying to port an elixir library oh okay like elixir has their their job library obon is perfect and i just want to port it over and like support adapters yeah and yeah the lm was doing a great job at it and i was giving it feedback on design things i didn't like and
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, I want to try building like a real library with something like this.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Andoril.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And I didn't hear about it until like a month ago. Oh. So it was just like, and it's not like, it's like the reality of, it's not like a rude thing at all. It's just like, we don't have, we just kind of lost any natural way that we natural situations that we would cross pads. Um, so I did, I did message him and we ended up, you know, he ended up calling me and we talked for a little bit, but yeah,
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And drill. What if it's like and drill? Visually, I think it looks like a fantastic name. When I read it, it sounds great. Now saying it out loud, I'm like, this is kind of awkward to say.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And SEO good.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, the ultimate name is just a random sound that has never been made before.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
The fuck are you smiling about?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I write so much go.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, because like the SST, CLI, yeah. I'm doing a fun thing. Did you see, you got me on Twitter, but did you see that Ghosty's going to hit 1.0? Are they going to release it publicly? Oh, no, I didn't.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, yeah, I knew that was going to be a reaction. I knew that was going to be a reaction.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
oh man i love it yeah so here's a cool you said next month what'd you say i think he said december yeah they're shooting for december but here's a cool thing that i didn't know did you know ghosty is built as not an application but as a library and an application i saw this i saw you talking with mitchell about this on twitter i did not know that
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well, I didn't understand it because he was like, it's a library. He mentioned that you can use it to build a multiplex. And I was like, I don't really understand this split. But then as soon as he said, it's a library and there is a front end for Mac and a front end for Linux.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Basically, the library, it's a terminal emulator in that, like, you can load a process into it and it basically has an API being like, given a 500 by 400 screen, here's what each cell should look like. So you can just take what it gives you and just paint the screen. And you don't have to know anything about it. So the front end's just like, you know.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Oh, I don't know anything about it, so that's good. Paint your thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
But point being, he built a terminal emulator and he's releasing it as a library too.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay, so the front ends are... I'm sure it's both because I'm sure you want to render it efficiently and use a GPU and all that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
the terminal like processing terminal codes and like figuring out when a process emits this like you need to change this cell and update the color and then all that stuff that's in the library okay and that's amazing because i'm using a very crappy implementation of that that i found in go and i found a bunch of bugs and i patched them for the sst multiplexer uh and he made me realize like oh yeah i could
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
embed ghosty yeah and like i'll start the process in ghosty and ghosty will tell me oh here are the cells well here's what the cells look like i can paint that and go so sst the cli would be powered by ghost that's that's why i tweeted like Okay, so we wrapped Terraform, and now we're going to wrap Ghosty. We're just, like, following Mitchell around. He's doing all the real work.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, there's just this thing like if you're not basically talking every single week, it just becomes, like you said, this heavy thing where it's like it's very formalized way of communicating. And it's like one person saying a bunch of things about their life. And you're just like, oh, cool. Oh, nice. Great. And then it's your turn. Then you say a bunch of things about your life.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. I did some more research, and I found out that there's another... There's already another C library called libvterm that I could have used if I understood any of this before. But I might try that in the meantime.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I think this could be really impactful if it's adopted correctly because VS Code, for example, has a really shitty... Their built-in terminal is like... So much worse than the most of native terminals. Like I find there's so many SST multiplexer bugs in the VS code terminal, which a lot of people use, unfortunately. So if they swap to using this under the hood, couldn't improve a lot better.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
You can build like a terminal on the web using it. Yeah, that breaks my brain.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Hey, you use Tmux all the time, don't you?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I was very confused about this until I worked on... I feel like there's so many layers.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. Because there's... Everything you just talked about, the emulators, but then they don't actually do anything. You're running... What are they emulating? I don't understand. The CSH inside it, probably, right? You're running like a shell. Like, what the hell is a shell?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And in the shell... You spawn a multiplexer, but the multiplexer spawns ZSH sessions inside of that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And then those start the processes. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. Ultimately, I think the root thing is a terminal used to be a physical thing. It was a physical device.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And when it had the width and the height, that was like a fixed physical width and height of the terminal.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It was something that you could like resize and whatever. Okay. Yeah. And those terminals can understand certain codes. And you've come across this for the terminals.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ANSI, ANSI codes.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
So it's just not the way that. you know people hang out and it's it's really sad uh and i guess it's just a reality of getting older and like going through different phases of your life but uh wow, like I just never really thought that this was a thing that would happen.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. So now we have emulators that interpret those same ANSI codes, but then they paint to a
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. And terminals have two modes. Wait, what? They have two modes.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I forgot what the... Is it called normal mode? I don't know what the normal mode's called, but I know the fancy mode's called raw mode, and that's what we use.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, we put the terminal in raw mode. Have you ever had your terminal, like, something crash, and, like, nothing in the terminal's working? Like, it's printing all these weird characters, and, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're trying to hit buttons, but just printing, like, weird codes. Uh-huh.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
That's because a process put that terminal in raw mode, but then it crashed before it could reset it out of raw mode. And raw mode lets you do all kinds of crazy stuff like,
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
repaint stuff and like go over stuff interesting that's what we use for like a terminal.shop it's in raw mode it's been a very very educational episode of tomorrow you told me you weren't interested in tech anymore i gave you the most boring information about all this let's talk about terminals and emulators that sounds interesting it actually kind of is
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
You know what I mean? Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I, I'm actually, now that you mentioned it, I am going through a second phase of that. It's a, so it is like a handful. So I like my, my friends from school growing up and dealing with that, you know, kind of not being as close anymore. And now that I'm in Miami, it's all my New York friends.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I'm going through a second phase with that as well. It's almost the exact same thing. It's not like they're still in New York. They all moved too, so they're having this problem with each other as well, I imagine. It's funny because literally all they would take to fix it is to turn it into this thing where I'm messaging them every day, even just a little.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
There are people I message every single day or at least a couple times a week. It's just that... there's no trigger or like my brain doesn't think to message them. Like when I see something that I want to share with someone, like they've just rotated out of the set of people that I share stuff with. So yeah, Yeah, all it would take would be for me to actively remember to do that.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
But as little as it is, it just doesn't happen.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Okay. I hate that concept. I just don't want to think about it.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Both Liz and my mom also said this, and I think it's true because I've experienced a year that was like this. They say time goes slower if you do a lot of different things every year. Yes. And we had this past year, we did a lot of different things that we don't normally do. And it feels like a very long year.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Like we're coming up to the end of the year and I'm like, wow, like I can't believe that React Miami was this year. That feels like... Five years ago. There were so many things that we did this year, so it felt like a slower year than the year before.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I can't believe Dallas was just, what, two months ago? That feels like so long ago.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Did you see the disaster? Yeah. That happened? No. There is a conflict. Oh, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
The JS Nation speaker dinner is at the same time. Oh, no. What channel would I see this in? Well, there's a Sentry channel that Wes messaged me about it. So I emailed the JS Nation person. Let's see what they say. I think we'd lose like five people if every single one of them decides to go.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
We didn't even have enough for teams of five. We had enough for teams of four. So we're going to have to... It's two teams, right? There's going to be teams involved.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Nothing? We're going to be on one team, but there's going to be... We need three teams besides us. Sorry, we need four teams besides us. Okay. So that was 20 people. If we do teams of four, I think it's totally fine. That's down to 16. Yeah, we're at like... If every single one of them decides not to go, we're at like 13 or 14. So we'll figure it out. It just would be a bummer. Bummer.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Well... I did send an email and I was like... You know, I said, like, no, we could give all the speakers free tickets to come and all of that. But I was also like, hey, the speakers are really excited to go to our thing. So they're probably not going to go to. I didn't say that explicitly, but yeah, you kind of hinted at it. She puts that together.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
In the back of my head, I was like, one thing is going to go wrong. There's going to be one thing that goes along.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
And then here it is. Here it is.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah, this is what she's built for.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
AJ heard about this and he was telling me that, you know, it seems like AJ is someone that is very good at hobbies. And I learned that he has...
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
a he used to have a hobby used to be on a paintball team that basically went like national pro or something whoa okay yeah he's gonna send me a picture all pro aj look at him i was saying okay we need to do some kind of thing where someone jumps out of a plane related to terminal and like yeah he's gonna do that for us they can do that for us you know yeah yeah we got a guy
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
No, I was asking him what the laws were on... Base jumping? Like, what is the law? Like, can you just jump off of a plane anywhere? Like, can someone jump out of a plane and land in my backyard?
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
It's not really killing ourselves. It's just like landing in the middle of the city is sketchy, right? But he was saying that basically it's if you meet certain certifications, which are quite hard to meet, you can basically do whatever you want. Wow. So I think we could have someone jump out and land in my backyard, you know, if you name that precisely.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Did you see Anduril's new drone product? Who? No. Obviously not. I don't even know who that is. Okay, so you know how Palmer Luckey, the Oculus founder, founded a military company? No, but I believe you. Okay. Okay. He did. It's called Anduril. Okay. Anduril? Anduril. It's the name of Aragorn's sword.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Anduril.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
They make products for the military, like missiles and things that blow up, but they put out product reels. It's like an Apple product. It's a totally different vibe. It's not the Apple vibe, but it's that level of production where it seems like it's a consumer product. But they're selling these drones now, again, to the military, that can blow up.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
They have all these crazy capabilities of being super precise and They do these dive bombs and they blow up right above the target to the shockwave. Yikes. It's at maximum lethality. So yeah, drone tech seems pretty legit. Have you seen all of the... Pretty much all these big events have started to replace fireworks with those crazy drones.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I mean, the New Year's thing we went to this past year, like in my neighborhood, dad had a drone thing going on.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
You can just freak out people. Just like, just start projecting really crazy shit.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Yeah. It's like a perfect line.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
What's crazy is it's made by humans. I know. It's a thing that's made by humans.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I live in Miami where nobody's sense of time can be trusted at all. So at this point, including my own. So at this point, I just don't even. So you're desensitized.
How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
I think after that, the Ukraine, Russia thing, I really understood how much of war is like just economic things. It's like you imagine that you're trying to win a battle. So you just like send in your forces. But it's this deep calculation of like, this tank costs X million dollars. If we put it in, it takes out this other thing, but that thing costs less than the tank.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's kind of nice, though, because it shifts from a lot of undefined abstract work and thinking to a bulleted list of fix this, fix this, fix this. It's done. Wake up next day, fix this, fix this, fix this. And you look back after two weeks, and now it's suddenly really polished. So it's a good, nice phase to be in.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Let's go. It's funny because Jay sent this screenshot of all our blog posts for the previous versions, and they're almost exactly a year apart. Wow. And every single time we release it, we're just like... I can't think of anything we could ever do. Definitely a year later, there was like a giant release.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
But I will say this time around, even though I said this before, we are like out of fundamental ideas. Like there were all these things that we wanted to do that we just couldn't in V2. Even when we released it, we knew that it was in support X, Y, and Z. Now it really feels like we can do everything. And if this doesn't grow a lot bigger, it just means a fundamental idea is wrong.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Like I don't think it's the execution. I don't think it's any of that. So I'm glad to finally be able to be at a phase where it's clear that if it's working, it's working. If it's not working, it means like... And there's not like any mystery around why it's not working. Yeah. But like I said, even already the adoption and growth has been much better than anything we've done before.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So it feels right.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. That's what I've been doing.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Is that the big release for the NFL season, the mobile app?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Is it because people don't use their computer anymore? I guess a lot of normal people just do not use a computer.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So I couldn't fully understand what he was saying, but I was like, Oh, what are you doing outside? He goes, I'm digging a hole. I'm like, But he wasn't like, I'm digging a hole, and here's why. He just said, I'm digging a hole, period. Yeah. So I had to ask, why are you digging a hole?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think it's entirely around the touch and the scrolling. That's my feeling. So if you build a good app, again, take Linear. Linear's a good app. If you use it on mobile web, there's probably nothing better that they can do, really, at that point. And It's just limited by the way it feels.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. But then if you joke too much and you become that guy again, you have to start joking again on top of the joke. It's so hard.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. So I think what I think about is there are people that work on high performance web stuff that drop down to Canvas.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
and initially it's like why the hell would canvas be any faster right it's like you're still rendering rectangles and like doing all the same stuff your browser does and your browser doing it natively so why is dropping down to canvas at all uh faster like that like just never made sense to me but you do get more performing uis if you do that i think it's it must be entirely around
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
the browser being a thousand percent backwards compatible with all the old layout systems and all the old styling stuff and like just the decades of of things and i'm assuming that puts a ceiling on on uh on performance which is why when you drop down to canvas you like are not implementing the whole history of things you're just implementing exactly what uh the type of stuff the program model that your current application is doing
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So I'm assuming that native apps probably also have a history and have similar issues, but I think it's a little different because you can control versions of the OS. Some apps don't work on older versions. They actually remove things. So I think it's purely that.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think it's a difference between an infinitely backwards compatible, maximum accessibility, maximum whatever, versus a more controlled thing. I think you're always going to have a gap there.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And he goes, and this is a part I really cut up, so I, like, didn't understand what he was saying for a bit, and then I, like, it was a big awkward pause, but I think what he said was, my dog hasn't been running around or eating for a month, so I think it's time. So...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. It's got more responsiveness.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Way more complex than a 2D Tom. So who's done this?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I'm pretty sure Ken Network... Oh, Ken has done stuff. Yeah. I think a lot of their stuff is Canvas-driven. Because I think they deal with... They deal with the classic...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
ton of data in uh like in a table type of thing yeah and that like very quickly hits the limits of traditional browser stuff yeah yeah the famous example is figma right like they're doing everything that's like is that canvas or is that is webgl the same thing okay yeah it's it's a mix of or something canvas webgl they're all kind of related okay
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And this is Flutter, right? This is what Flutter is.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I thought Flutter was just Google's react native. Yeah. But I think the web version of it renders to a canvas. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I don't know if the performance is better. Like it could just be worse given what their. I want somebody. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's just black holing.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Let's just, we'll see if we get any emails. Who knows? You should try the Flutter thing. I do wonder how it is. I think the other problem is web. Once you go to Canvas, your operating system has no idea what's being shown on screen. So a bunch of native-y things probably don't work.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
You have to re-implement copy-paste in a manual way. You probably have to... Any accessibility stuff, like hitting tab to go to the next element, all that. So I see why people really only use it for things like... that are really not document-oriented at all.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Did you hate it so much that you're, like, wondering about this?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, Expo's great.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
oh no gonna put the dog down and he already dug a hole for it he was digging a hole and he was like okay now's the perfect time to call dax and talk about this
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Well, then I guess what's the boundary? Like what did you decide to do natively and what's a web? Why is it not all web?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
How do you feel about the result? It feels pretty good.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's like, it's so hard to get a hold of him in general. Yeah. And that's like the moment he chooses to be like, oh yeah, I'm free.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
This is one of those things where I'm like, Xbox made it a lot better, but... It's still to me, it just is so painful still that I will just reorient what I'm working on to never. Yeah. If you follow this logic, ultimately, I'm going to end up starting a company that only serves an API because I can't think of something like that's how you eliminate anything that like sucks.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
If your whole product is just an API.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, that's actually a really good point. There's this tediousness of front-end and we both work on front-end a lot and we care about front-end, but there's like a tediousness to it that just doesn't exist on back-end where I think this is where... the sense that people have that front end is quote unquote easy.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I kind of get why people feel that way because you're not really using your brain that much. Like a lot of the time you're more just exerting a high level of like labor and just tediousness to get through certain things. Whereas back end, you almost have none of that. So it feels like you're just using your brain all the time. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I do so much front-end. It's crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
You know, it's what it's like.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Maybe I could just. But then like the front is going to get worse. Like, are you okay with that? No, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Maybe it's a racial thing. I feel like maybe I think. Well, if someone looked at you and me, they would guess that you're the front end engineer.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
My favorite form of this is when literally at the last second he'll ask a question being like oh man oh yeah yeah no no no just like he's like he's like kind of like vaguely worried that nothing has been figured out yeah but it's like way too late at this point yeah he's like did we book hotels and it's like we're it's like tomorrow well you you said tomorrow like you're flying tomorrow to dallas
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I don't care, actually. You tell me later what your birthday is.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I was very traumatized after the last situation. I also really like that your background looks so much like mine now. It looks like we really are coordinated. I think I want to move my camera further back so our heads are the same sizes.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
This is ridiculous. This is really funny. Yeah. Someone's going to be upset. Yes, there are some roles that are very senior on the front end. We acknowledge that. Sure. It's also funny.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Do you feel like you're always just going to be shipping code as a job? I mean, I used to be, I also used to be a manager. Here's, I think it's, I think it's like a weird, if I look at my own situation, I think it's not exactly like, Oh, I'm going to grow out of it. I think it's more like, uh, so my time that I was like a hundred, I was a hundred percent manager, zero code at all, which, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's pretty crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. Here's the thing. I didn't think it was awful. I did not think it was awful. My work was very, very extremely well defined. Every single day I had to meet with X number of people. Okay. Once I finished that, I had no other work to do. Literally nothing. There's no work I could have made up for myself.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And you can make work for yourself. You can always make work for yourself. When you've met with everyone, there's no work you can make for yourself.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's true, you do. Yes, it's an easier job.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Here's what the actual job is like. I think it's the perfect Black Swan type of thing, which comes up like every episode. Every single day, my role was extremely predictable, extremely stable, very easy, very straightforward. It gave me a lot of time to actually, I actually programmed a lot while I was a manager, just not at work stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I was able to like work on ideas, learn new things, et cetera, because my day-to-day was so well-defined. But every once in a while, once a month, once every two months, I there would be a couple of days of like intense stress and discomfort because my team failed to ship something and the rest of the company is is really pissed or they're upset.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And like, you know, there's a bunch of chaos and people want to know why and all the stuff. And you're the one has the answer for that. So there was that. No joke. There was also another situation where we were looking for a data engineer forever. And it was like the big bottleneck for a company.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
The CTO kept getting bogged down in data engineering stuff because he was the one that built it originally. And we were like, we got to find a data engineer to replace him because like so much is getting backed up for this. We found one. Great, great. Finally, we unlocked this problem. Two weeks in, he was on a call with someone else and there was three people on the call.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think one of them might have been external. One person left the call and he said something like insanely racist in front of the other person. And then now it's like, okay, well, it's messed up if we would let him go but only keep him because this is a very stressful situation for us. Another person was really upset by it, so... Yeah, then now the back. So it's like stupid stuff like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
You know, it's like it's when you run into stupid stuff in code, it almost feels like understandable. The world is how the world works. When you run into stupid stuff like that, it's just like it just feels unnecessary and kind of like. genuinely stupid. But I would say overall it was better and it just like it's sort of like workload being predictable and stable and everything.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
No, no, no. I'm going to Maine for Alan's wedding. Oh, right.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
yeah i think i agree with you that the majority of the people posting that stuff in these mid-level manager roles at big companies like they're just following some template of like this is what a manager is like and they think that it's impactful when it's really a technically useless job it only exists as a side effect of you do need someone to be a router and coordinate yeah beyond that it's like it doesn't really have to exist
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
But that said, the previous role I was in, I was also technically a manager, but I was not a middle manager. I built the team from the company being zero people. This was a very different situation because it involved getting people motivated
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
to do stuff that was like well beyond what they thought they could do or like kind of like irrational at times like working way harder than uh they technically had to just having a team that's like really motivated really excited but like run through a wall that like to say like we need to do this and they were just kind of like run at it yeah i think there that there's something real there there's like
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
an actual leadership dynamic there. I don't think it shows up in middle managers at all.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, I get there at 540 something. Prime also gets there at five something.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, yeah. So if I'm in my current role, I'm no longer in a leadership role, and we're only three people. even though we're only three people, like Jay is technically the CEO. Yeah. And he does pay a crazy amount of attention to all these micro things that I'm not even thinking about. And it adds up a lot. And I definitely, he like definitely like pulls, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Like really, really great effort out of me. So, yeah, I mean, you play sports like you get what I'm talking about. Like there is like an invisible thing that can happen when you have a good leader. But it's not this stupid like check in with your team every two weeks to see how it's never that schedule for your one on ones.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
That's all. It's Monday. OK, so here's the schedule from Monday. Well, this podcast doesn't go out after I spoil anything.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
No, but I mean, I didn't. I said this other thing is something I value. It's different. And I don't value this middle manager thing. I got you. Here's the thing. Everyone can do whatever they want, but I don't believe in glorifying everything. I'm going to still have my opinions and values on what I what is worth glorifying and aspiring to and being like, that's really great.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, it's not everything. It's it can't be everything. What is worth glorifying?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And then I got a personal it's a personal question, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I have this very, you know, here's a good way to figure it out. Mm-hmm. Everyone will cry at some kind of movie situation.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
No, but there are some things that will bring... I'm not saying you would cry, but some things bring tears to your eyes, whatever. Mm-hmm. I think you can derive what you care about from that. So for me from that, uh, the thing that always gets me is anytime someone's being like extremely honorable, like beyond what you could like imagine someone doing or like doing some kind of crazy sacrifice.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
What do you mean? I guess it's fine if we spoil a little bit.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Uh, that's what I really like value. Like that always brings a tear to my eye. And I think I really value that. If you derive that further, like a lot of those things are rooted in leadership. It's usually like a leader that is going above and beyond, uh, for a group of people that are leading. And that's why this flows all the way down to like, yeah, I do really care about great leadership.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I don't think middle managers are represented that, but I do think there are people that are. Okay. That's my thought.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Our listeners get a little sneak peek. The schedule is we need to be at the basketball venue around one because the thing starts at two ish. So we go there, like set up figures, figure things out. So if we leave around one, we'll get there at the right time. So that only leaves like from the morning, uh, like around eight, eight, nine ish to, uh, to one for us to do other stuff. So, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Is it when people don't have good lighting in their shot?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
We'll be making fun of Adam. We'll probably be posting funny pictures of him. Probably. We'll probably be taking him to places and situations that he's very uncomfortable with. He's probably going to be having weird interactions with people.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think the plan right now is on Sunday, we'll get dinner and we'll talk through some additional ideas we can do for the basketball stream. Yep. So TJ is going to build just the thing that David designed, the overlay.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, he just posted it today. Oh. Yeah. So bare minimum, TJ is going to build that in Laravel with Livewire and all that stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So at minimum, we'll at least arrive there already having that. So it's not like we'll have nothing. And then we'll brainstorm some other ideas we can do on top of that to see if we can get some interactivity. Okay. In the overlay going. And they'll have like a couple hours in the morning to build that. Maybe we'll work on some of it Sunday night. Me and you...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
are not going to be part of that stream in the morning because we need to go pick up something okay i'm not going to fully spoil it we need to go pick up something uh-huh okay I realize it's better to like half spoil it because then now people are going to really, really want to know what we picked up. Yeah. We got to go pick that up. We need to bring it back.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I don't know if we'll have time to do to film with the thing we're picking up because that's the purpose of this thing. We're going to film with it in the morning because we might need to go to the basketball game before we have time to do that. But the game ends at 5 and we have daylight until 8 p.m. So if we leave exactly at 5, we'll have three hours to do a bunch of stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And I think that's enough for the few things that we want to do. And then we'll go return it. The thing. The thing. If you can't guess what it is when I say we have to pick it up and return it.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Okay. And then Tuesday. Yeah. And then we're pretty much done after that. Like Tuesday, Wednesday is just hanging out. So that's what I was going to say.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's Tuesday morning. Tuesday morning.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, flying out Thursday morning.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I mean, I think realistically I'm going to be working Tuesday and Wednesday during the conference and I'll hang out in the evening.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Just hanging out? Yeah, I think just... Because the serving coffee part is handled by the catering company. So we just need to drop off... Oh, right. Drop off all the coffee. We should be there, of course, but...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think your framing is maybe better because sometimes like depending on where I'm like, if I go like that, see how my head gets cut off. So I think you're just more right. Hope all the audio only people really enjoyed that segment.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I'm really feeling like we should switch it to half court. Yeah, maybe. Because my excuse is going to be that it's going to be way easier for whoever's filming because it's kind of ridiculous to ask the person to run around and chase us. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
We have a hard line.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Nice. That's what TJ is. How's it going to be fit? It literally looks like an NBA overlay. It's awesome.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Whoever's banging the laptop, we have one of TJ's friends is coming. He's going to be working the OBS setup and he can just control the... Oh, nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
If we had like a week of just all of us focusing on this, we could have done something even cooler. Oh, yeah. I'm sure we could figure out some small things on Sunday and Monday, but yeah, with the ads going on the bottom, like...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think so. I think the biggest variable is, are we going to be able to get good footage of the thing we're picking up?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, it's really wild. I keep having this experience this week where, and this has been happening the whole time I've been working at SSD, but especially the past two weeks because we had these releases going. People talk to me about really obscure specific things. And I'm like, whoa, you like went and really looked at it to go find that, right? So I...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Uh, so we open source a terminal code base, but I, I opened the source that technically like days before I announced it and people found out, I was already getting questions in the SST discord about like, about stuff in there. And I was like, wow, it's crazy that you were just, what was like the trigger that made you go find it? Were you just like casually checking?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I haven't actually, you made a video too, right? I got to pull this up. I haven't watched the video yet. Yeah. I don't think it's going to be that interesting for you. It's just like a 45 minute overlay of like every older 45 minutes. Yeah. It was a serious video. Serious. Oh, how we sold coffee from the journal found it. Yeah. But the other, I mean the video also, right.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So it's just like a 45 minute. It's not like one of our usual fun videos. It's like a, yeah, it's more of a serious tutorial video. uh but i posted it and like an hour later people were asking me like very specific questions from very specific parts of the video and it's just wild that people do yeah puts up out there people do like Engage with it.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's even crazy to see just a handful of people do that.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Thanks. Thanks. We also know we also had a typo fix from someone, of course. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Open source is great. I also was getting so many messages with people being like, you left the credentials in there. And every time they would say that, I would panic because we have some credentials that are not changeable. Because we do this SSH thing, we have permanent credentials that cannot be rotated.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I saw your message. So I would freak out and I would go check what they were actually talking about and it was never a real credential. It's just that the readme had information about our AWS SSO setup. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I totally get because anytime you see account IDs, everyone's like, people feel like that's private.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
But account IDs are not private for anyone that's interested in this very obscure fact. They're not private. You don't need to redact them when you send them to people. You cannot do anything malicious with an account ID.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. You've been, you've like disappeared. Like I haven't been anywhere.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think in general, I feel like I literally, I just, I just haven't heard from you. Um, that's what David just said.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I'm realizing now that if I get... 10 or 20% busier, that doesn't seem like that much of a difference to me, but I see how my behavior totally changes from someone externally. So I think it just seems more traumatic to us.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, but I've also been pretty busy because we finally got SCV3 out and it was just like... Yeah, I saw that. It was two weeks after we planned on releasing it, of course.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Or they already did? Yeah, we had them in there for a little bit. Everything I need for stat news, I guess, is there. Yeah, we even have a migration guide. Like I said, it's all there, but you might still run into some blockers that we just haven't foreseen, but... Like, the stuff that applies to everyone is there. Like I said, migration is still pretty tricky, but... Okay, here's another thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So... yeah, we've been working on Ion for six months and yeah, it's been out and people have been using it. But in my head, it's always like software is slow. Like you, people need to like spend years before they actually start to use something. Yeah. I get, I've had a few experiences a week. Someone had an issue. So I said, Hey, can you send me your, all of your SD config?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So we figured some stuff out yesterday. Well, I have a little story about that. So you saw me yesterday message being like, Uh, can I do a call with someone? I'm like a confused on a few things. So prime calls me a video call and he is standing outside and he looks kind of sweaty and it's, it's kind of choppy, like the, like the video quality initially.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yep. And we have someone with thousands of resources. And they're hitting like a performance issue.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Nothing like that, actually. It's really crazy. And because I'm always like, oh, people are really conservative with new stuff. And like, it hasn't been super stable and everything. But it's somehow people power through that to like get this size. So, yeah, I just keep having these experiences this week where I'm like,
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
This is way outside of my expectations of what I thought people were doing, which is really good. It's great seeing that. So we've just been... Just really on top of every single GitHub issue, all the messages in our Discord. So just been reacting to that.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I'm just DMing right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I mean, the first release, we already have like fast follow releases two and three planned. So such is life. Do you feel like you'll ever just like be cool? Just like, I'm cool with the pace things are going. I mean, not cool, cool, but like... My wife is like, why do you get so into each release?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Why do you push so hard to get this thing out the door when you just have more stuff to do after that? It's not like I'm just done. So why can't I just take a nice, easy pace and just be like, I get done what I get done every day. Life is good. I enjoy where I'm at in life. Why can't I just be that way?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, I'm not always. I guess I go through. It's all about the like release calendar. Like if we have a target date, like we're trying to get something out for a certain time frame, then the closer it gets that time frame, the more stress, the more I push. And then after that, I'll go through a few weeks where I'm like, it's the beginning of every new phase. It's like pretty chill.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like I'm still getting stuff done, but it's just like, I'm not freaking out every day. Like I'm, I got to get this done.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like we're just, you're just always continuously releasing CICD. Yeah. You shipped a production like 15 times a day. You don't even think about it anymore. Yeah. Twice on Friday.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, web apps, not so much. When you release the web app, everyone gets the web app.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
No, can't be like that. It always, but it feels like to me and to my family when we're in the thick of it, it feels like this is how it always is. Like I got to chill out because this is always, we're always pushing, but then we're not, we forget when we come off of it. there are periods of relative chill.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, I did. I saw people leave, like big names. Chris Munns left. I saw other big names people announce they were leaving AWS. Is that all over the RTO? I actually saw the people say they were leaving before I saw the return to office.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Do you know what it was before that?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So you had to live in Seattle. You had to be near an office. No, no, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, so lots of people are having to go back to Seattle potentially, like where their team's existing. They got to commute. That sucks. I mean, for them, I would never work at a place where I had to live somewhere specific.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, you think it's good. I saw your contrarian take. When I see takes like that, when you say stuff like that, I just think like, do you really believe that? Or you just want to be the opposite of what everyone else is saying? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Can't replicate nature. I wonder if it has downstream effects for habitats, for animals. They can't live there.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And they probably, did they do it in 2020? Did they do the COVID? Is that why?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's like we plopped a suburb in the middle of a field, and we're like, move in! Come on, animals! Yeah. We're good at this stuff. We're humans. We build things.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Cause like the internet usage kind of soared during COVID. Right. So internet companies may be over hired or now.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Do you have any opinions on whether the, you said the last few years, the AWS has kind of been falling behind and just like kind of a mess, a drift. Do you think it lines up with Jassy leaving? Like they had Celepski in there and then now this new guy, it's like, do you think it's a leadership problem or just random and who cares?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I do wonder if Jesse was really good at everything. I mean, he's now the, the Amazon CEO, right? Yeah. So he must be really good at everything.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
You don't have to fight for it anymore. Just kind of like getting fat and happy.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
When you say they've fallen behind, are you talking like the Cloudflare's of the world, like in the serverless kind of ways, like the new edge or new era app development ways? Or what kind of things come to your mind when you say AWS has fallen behind? Because I would say they think they've fallen behind on AI, and so they've hard pivoted to everything about AI they can possibly do.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's the same way that Apple too.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like a couple of years of like... I don't know. I didn't leave reInvent being like, man, life is just going to keep getting better.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. On the remote thing, I guess I always thought when I started my career remote as well, and I always thought like, especially leading up when the COVID stuff happened and everybody, it was like, oh, it's accelerating the transfer to all of us being remote. I had this assumption that it was like better and that over time, more and more people would work from home.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And I think what you're saying is reminding me that's not true. Like it's not for everybody. It's not for every company. And it seemed like all the articles came out when COVID hit that like, this is just going to accelerate the work from home movement and everyone's going to be remote in five years. And turns out everyone's being sent back to the office. Five years later. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And if it's the right kind of company, like to your point, an Amazon probably doesn't make sense to be a largely remote workforce. It's like, is it just big companies? Is it just like when you're a company at Amazon scale, is it just harder to be remote? If you didn't, I guess, like you said, if you didn't start remote. Okay. So I'll give you like the dynamics because our team is remote.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
You're three people. What's that? And Amazon's about what? Three million people. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
We're all innately got steak.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Do they just know, like in leadership at big companies, they just know that like ultimately we get like 10% of an employee's effort that they would be giving at a startup. But if we have a million of them, it's enough.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
yeah everyone like lies to themselves and it like you know that thing that like work always inflates the time you have so it always feels like everyone's doing as much as they possibly can so this is what like when they talk about corporate culture and like principles and all this stuff it's to like basically it's religion you're trying to like brainwash everyone under you to like just to get that 10 out of them so that everyone's not just completely checked out doing nothing is that the idea
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Or the money is the motivator. Sorry, I'm answering my own questions.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's so foreign being a startup founder and like you, we've just only worked for ourselves on things for ourselves. We work 100% of the time and then like cut into our life sometimes to work more because the thing needs more attention. Like there's no moment of my, or is it like comms and stuff? Are they just saying like,
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
The 40% doesn't include, like, all the wasted time, like, breaks and communication and meetings.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, but do you feel like you spend 100% of your time working? Like, I feel like... Well, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
You're trying to be the most efficient. Your body's just trying to get the most dense thing for the least effort.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
You're scamming yourself, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. I just... I can't imagine, like, only spending 40% of my day, like, moving things forward, whatever work is. Like... That must be nice, I guess, is what I would say. Working for other people and just clocking in, clocking out. Or parts of it are nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's like Pleasantville or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like, people start, like, attacking the company like they just... committed a hate crime. I mean, it's like, how dare they?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, right. It's your peers, ultimately. So, you know, I have little...
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
that it like just draws a little empathy from me because like these are like this is like a very privileged category of people like i don't really care about this struggle you know so this podcast is long enough now like two uh two years no how long we've been doing this two years almost two years that's crazy uh i'm getting distracted by my my qualifier at the beginning of this statement uh it's long enough now but i feel like we should check in every once in a while on the cycle
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Where are we at? I've asked you this probably in the last three months, but like have things come off of the quantitative easing interest or zero interest rate era? Like has the collapse from all that come yet? Or is it still waiting? Are we still pending? Man, I have no idea.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, no kidding. Did the market like blow up and go up a thousand points? Yeah, super priced in.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
But then when the cut isn't as big as they thought it'd be, it crashes.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Forgetting about the market then, how do you feel about like the economy? Capital E, you know, the economy. Mostly in the tech world. I don't care about everybody else.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Why? OK, we can't just let it feel so dumb. This is so hard for me to track. They can't just let it keep overheating to infinity because we don't have enough stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Okay. Oh, I've heard of this. That's happened in some countries, right? They want like a smoother transition. That's what their goal has been. A smoother transition to just normal flation, not inflated, not deflated, just flation. We just want plain old garden variety flation. Yes, exactly. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
community or something i'm gonna say something and you're gonna make fun of me because i'm that boring white family that moves in with the white tesla in your neighborhood in the big cube box we looked at a neighborhood like this like this crazy planned community in florida where they had like this whole main street with like all these shops and there's like little like electric go-karts that everyone can just ride around freely and leave wherever golf carts or golf carts yeah golf carts they have like cards would be fun
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So when you say a smooth transition, it's if they don't do anything, it'll be a crash transition. It'll like fall to a deflated state or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
They are actually concerned about it.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Are they taking steps that are working?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I want to, I want to talk about what you've been up to on Twitter. Cause I, I've literally been on so little that I haven't seen your 30 tweets a day. Cause you just like, tell me some of the bangers, like what's been going on or just what's going on with our friends. Just catch me up. I don't know. Are you just like done or you're just not going to come back?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's kind of, to be honest, it's kind of nice to just like wake up and program. and then be done and then wake up and program and like not think about the internet and all that's going on on Twitter or whatever. Like I haven't thought about what's happening on Twitter and I don't know how long.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Until just now, which I would like to hear from you, you know, is there anything I've missed that was really fun?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Prime and Teach had DHH on, just copying us. Now DHH has officially done the terminal tour. Clean sweep, both podcasts. I called him a moron yesterday. Who, DHH or Prime? Yeah. You called DHH a moron? What for?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And they probably weren't inviting it the other time. No, no, no.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
They had multiple... Yeah, that would be fun. They had multi-seat bikes where families could hop on a bike and ride it, but you just leave them laying wherever. It's like the whole community, the whole... It has like a store, like a grocery store and like a whatever town center.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
This is really an interesting conversation right now. Just the multiple angles. It's so interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
uptime should be like water like just like crazy shit like that and it's funny to have that section when like they've literally had the worst downtime i've seen i'm gonna defend i'm gonna defend this person because i love dracula i use it on everything it's my keyboard theme like my physical keycaps dracula make dracula he did is it darkula or dracula dracula Dracula? Okay. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Just going to defend him for that reason alone. That's fine. Because he wants to buy some terminal coffee for his team. You know what? Maybe we could do a Dracula coffee. I would love to do this, actually, just to spite you. Can we do a Dracula-themed terminal coffee partnership with your favorite CEO? We'll talk about it offline. That would be the best. I'm just like... It's the product. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's kind of like... I'm just tired of this playbook culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not the only start. There's a lot of startups doing similar like low... It's like not having your sights high. Like kind of aiming for... medium outcomes and like doing the whole startup thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
There's just like this whole thing played out and like your whole life just lives in this little community or this big community. It's like a huge amount of Florida, whatever. What's that? What's that called? Not the swamp.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And yeah, to me, I don't believe any like cloud wrapper companies and you have to like be intelligent enough about a company and know enough about a company to know whether they really are just like this third layer cloud wrapper. Um, Like PlanetSkill, not a cloud wrapper. They're an actual business. They build actually great technology and they happen to use cloud resources for that.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
But there's a difference. Like there's so many startups that got funded in this kind of like, I don't know why I say third layer. What's the first layer? I don't know. I'm considering like the public clouds, the second layer. I don't know what the first layer is. Just that's my terminology. Okay. It's the third layer. First layer is like electricity and atoms. I don't know. Whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. And then the second layer is where AWS comes in. Okay. And then the third layer is Resend and Vercel. Okay. I just don't believe in those companies. I just think they're all going to die.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. I haven't really been on the internet since we did the whole Laracon thing. Did everybody switch over to PHP? Is everyone writing Laravel now? Did we do our job?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Never mind. Arrows instead of dots? I'm out.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
just kidding we love php php so great buy artisan coffee terminal dot shop you know what i'd like to do someday i'd like to like get so good at an ad read that like it seems like it's just a pre-recorded ad read but i'm actually saying it exactly the same every time does that make sense that'd be fun like and then maybe throw in one little change like one little intonation yeah yeah just like it could have just automated this could have just recorded it and played the thing but instead i'm gonna say it every time oh let's take a break
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Hi, this is Totally Adam, the host of the podcast, reminding you in this sponsor read that is clearly not a pre-recorded bit that you should check out Terminal Coffee at terminal.shop. Amazingly awesome products for developers brought to you by a group of talented, good-looking, and humble heroes like Dax, Adam, The Primogen, Teej, and David.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
To order your next great coffee, please visit terminal.shop.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I'm sorry. I just remembered I used to do that sometimes. That's what you do on podcasts. We're going to take a break for the podcast. Why do people take breaks? Do they need a break? Do podcasts take breaks? Oh, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I just don't listen to podcasts, so I have no idea if what we're doing is... I can tell you they do things on podcasts that they don't actually do. Believe me, that's funny. No, they're always like, we're going to take a break. And then they just come right back. And I'm like, did they have to pee? Could they not have just cut that out? I don't know what the break is.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
No, this was South Florida. It was, I think it's somewhere between, like, Naples and Fort Myers. It was this ex-NFL player that, like, retired and built this community. I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
A little hurt that you didn't notice I was in there, 50% of the streams. You were in there. Oh, right, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I just find an opportunity to just shield Tailwind every turn.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Sorry, that was double sarcasm. I don't know if everyone caught that. Or was it triple? It might have been triple. I'm not sure. Go ahead.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Is it just the competition? It's just there's so much more competition in JavaScript world because there's a framework every week.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
interesting that's interesting i'll find the name of it but it definitely had those vibes like uh like everybody's just like wearing the same thing and like hi neighbor like creepy kind of vibes but we considered it and it's like everyone has to build one of these like three different types of houses and you have to choose one of these builders my parents my parents house is one of those type situations it's like one of five models yeah that was very interesting
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I will say, I do think the like MVC MVVM, like if your framework still uses those paradigms, I just don't think people have the attention span in 2024 to like use that. You know what I mean? Like, The Phoenix app we had at StatMuse, this giant, giant Phoenix app, the number of files in that app just boggles the mind. I guess it's like our node modules.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's like insanely verbose amount of files and it's all the MVC stuff, I guess. And same, I saw people criticizing Laravel now that Laravel got a little more attention for the same. It's like, there's so many files. I can't wrap my head around all this. I guess JavaScript world, we've pared it down Uh, there's still too many files.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I mean, there's too many like stupid dot files in your root directory for like all the different tools, but well, you have to add those in. Yeah. You have to opt in people for that. Yeah. I blame people for all this stacks, but I do think like the NBC thing is just, it's too archaic feeling at this point. I don't know. Do you agree with that? Or do you think it's like good pattern?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
We've got an alternative. We don't do MVC.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
That's so reasonable, Dax. Why are you going to be so reasonable?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, I feel like you became too much of a character on the internet. You got to lay a little lower. You became a little too like people want to they want to say things to you in reply. People don't really care to say things in reply. Maybe because I just talk about like eating plants and jujitsu and stuff and they don't have anything to say.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
But I've laid low enough that I don't really get the angry replies. And if I do, I guess I don't notice because I'm not on Twitter.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
All right. I got to get off here. I'm sorry. I'm staring at. I've gotten distracted staring at the waiting for review on the app thing. And I have to make changes to the web thing because our thing uses the web. And if I don't make those changes, it's not really ready. Just go, go, go, you know? Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
oh because they have like nice equipment to like do mic speakers all that stuff wait are we just doing it on iphone though can we just record everything on iphone now is that what we decided well i'm getting my new iphone tomorrow i'm excited there you go we'll just record on your new iphone no no no no no cameras dslr the whole thing I don't know. We need to talk about it. Yeah, I'll talk.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Let's talk. You and your people will talk to me and my people. BeganBot will be my people and you and Liz are your people.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I hearted it or something. I did something, Dax.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I got to find that message. Was that in? Oh, it's in Slack. I forget. We're a Slack company now. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to say something in it right now.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Real things. I thumbs up and hearted it. Thank you very much. Okay. Thanks. It's been good. Thanks, Dax.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
There's more where that came from. More laughy faces and crying, laughing faces. I do those a lot.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, that you buy from a place that makes hats. That's right. You thought it was actually like a swag item or something.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's also in New York. So there's that downside. I mean, you have to live on Manhattan.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
What are the dates? What are the dates?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, I think so. I better double check with Casey. But I think it's clear. I can't miss a terminal gathering. I know. It's the ultimate FOMO. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
What have you been doing? What's been going on? What is happening on the internet?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, I've been reflecting. I think I do this every like six months. I think I have like a, yeah, I'm done with Twitter. I'm done with the internet. I guess normally I'm a little more high touch. Like even if I drop off of Twitter, like with you, we skipped the podcast last week. So literally submitted the stat news app to the store this morning and
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, usually. No, it's a company called Tintree. They plant tin trees for every item you buy. Oh, wow. Kind of cool. Kind of like the guy who, the Tom guy who gave away shoes to poor people every time he bought shoes. Oh, yeah. Probably for them, it's probably selfish. There's probably some corporate tax write-off or something. I don't know. But you feel warm and fuzzy when you do it, you know?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Uh, it was, it was like this, uh, crazy crescendo to like, I hit the button and then it was like, I'm sorry, you can't submit because you like track or something and you had to fill out this form and blah, blah, blah. It was like this big rejection. As soon as I hit the button, it was so anticlimactic. So then I had to spend an hour like doing a bunch of Apple paperwork, but then I submitted it.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So it's submitted. It feels good. They're going to reject it. Probably too many. I mean, probably no, honestly, too many web views. I don't know how people do this. So, Have we talked about mobile development on here much? No, you probably have. It's all probably fresh in your mind now. It's very fresh in my mind. It's such a, okay, so the dilemma for us, like we have this giant website, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And it's been 10 years of building this giant website with all kinds of stuff, like visualizations, it's sports statistics. So there's all kinds of different custom visualizations for different sports and like tons of just UI that we would never want to rebuild on a native app. using native stuff, right?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like we are the perfect case for using web views to have a native mobile app because people constantly ask us for a native mobile app. We want to say like, oh, the web, the mobile web experience is really good. Just use it on your phone. It's fine. Like for the kind of site we have, it's like, it's fine. It's like a Wikipedia style, like lots of links, clicking the pages, whatever. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, I don't know if this should stay in or not. I really don't. I'm sponsored by Tentree. No, I'm not. What is Tentree? It's a brand, a clothing brand.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
But people constantly badger us about having an app. Like every announcement we make, there's like five replies to the tweet that are like, we just want an app, bro. Like everybody wants a mobile app. So we're like, okay, fine. We'll build a mobile app, but it's mostly going to be the web experience. You're just going to have a little bit of native like navigation at the bottom.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And that's basically it. So it's all these web views. And I've talked to a few different like native development experts, if you will. And they've given me the green light that this is a case where, yeah, It probably makes sense. We're a small team. Like we're not going to have a mobile developer that just does mobile development. Probably makes sense to just use web views.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Like I've gotten the sign off. I'm not just like spitting in the face of every mobile developer. So we have this case where it makes sense, but it's just terrible. It's such a terrible experience to build a native app using these web views.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
All the things you're used to doing in the web and sharing state and local storage and cookies and sessions, all of it is just like ass backwards and broken and you can't do anything you want to do. The amount of effort to build one little thing on the mobile app compared to the web is It's just insane.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And I don't know if it's just because of our use case we're trying to shoehorn a web experience into a native app. That's why we're having such a hard time. Maybe if you're building a purely native app and it's a totally different use case and it's not an existing property on the web, maybe it's not this bad. But it's bad. And the web view is like a community project. It's not like...
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
built into react native used to be i think but then they spun it off and it's this community thing the number of like quirky bugs for this being like oh it's cross-platform it works on android and ios the number of things that just don't work on android or don't work on ios and you can't use this flag on this but you can on this it's a mess okay soapbox soapbox over i'm done well my question is uh
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
What about those frameworks that are really more oriented around just web stuff? What are those frameworks? Are you going to say, like, Flutter and all these other words I've heard people say and I've ignored for five years?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah. Why didn't you say this to me like two months ago, Dax? Three months ago. Why are we just now talking about this? This is not good. Then I'm realizing like, well, I asked some expert stacks and they said I could just use the web view in React Native. And then I realized I asked React Native experts. Should I use a web view in React Native? Yes.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And maybe if I would have asked, should I use React Native? They would have said no.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Yeah, we're not building from scratch. It's like literally hitting custom pages on our website that are kind of catered to this mobile experience.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So I'm going to look into it. I do see on their website how you can also build apps across iOS, Android, and the web. And React Native does that too. Why in the world would you build a web app using React Native?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
And do they, like, throw them into the ground or something?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Oh, there's reasons to do it? It was cool?
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
It's one of those stealthy, you got an inside tip kind of things.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Really? Doesn't just hamstring the web development so much.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
Okay. If you're building a thing, like, like what was the famous that was a Snapchat or Instagram that didn't even have like a web experience. It was just mobile for the longest time. They're like a huge billions of user mobile app.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
So maybe that case where the web is just kind of an afterthought.
How About Tomorrow?
Working Remote, AWS Lags, and Dax Explains the Economy
I guess I have seen this or I had a dream because I can, I can picture someone doing that. Like they're kind of like throwing a little sapling in like really fast.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I feel like a truck driver, like putting in an extra long haul today. Like the union's going to call about our hours. Like we got to take a break at some point.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. So this has been a week since they heard the last one and they have no context anymore. They're like, what are they even talking about? Just as a reminder.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I know you meant Tailwind there. You said CSS. It's okay.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, basically.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
So are there actually things Solid doesn't do very well with the local first or the zero framework approach? Is there something that React has advantages of? I'm struggling to even say a sentence. You know what I'm trying to get at?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And in the like the hanging out thing, I used to feel like, well, I'm really just here hanging out with everybody. But I feel like I do that elsewhere now. Like we've got Discord, we got Slack or whatever. I mean, I don't do that much either. But there is kind of like lots of other ways to stay connected with people I want to stay connected to. And I just I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That sounds really nice. You know how hard it is to Google for one JavaScript framework? And then I was like, oh, well, I'll search for zero. And then it's like everything is just zero JS, like bundle sizes and all this.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
One stack dot dev. Thank you. OneStack.dev. Is there a webpage for Xero?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Fourletter.com. I feel like... I feel like that's going to be expensive. At least six figures, right?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Is it, I'm going to say 2 million. So isn't that seven figures? That's seven figures. Yeah. I went higher.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And I'm like, that's not bad.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like that is like a really good domain. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
This is like going back to last episode, you know, all that time ago when we recorded last episode. When we talked about the, like, how does JK Rowling care at all if they sell more merch at this point? Like, how does Google, who at Google is like, ooh, we could sell this domain for $500,000. Google, trillion dollar, multi-trillion dollar, maybe? I don't know. Where are they at now?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like, who cares? At this point, why aren't they just like, here's the domain. What does it matter? I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's just hard for me to imagine. I work at Google.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I don't know if Twitter is it for me. Like the memes, nothing really hits the same. It's just not the same anymore.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, I know. I love that it's like a little round mark that they can use as their favicon. It's just one of those things that I think about when I make a website. It's like, what's the favicon going to be?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like one, like the word one. So NPM install one. That's impressive, right? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's not the Twitter change. I just changed.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
What leverage does he have? That's interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That's annoying. Is it against the rules to sell an NPM package?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
What would be a valid one?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But I hate name collision stuff. I hate it because it's the first thing I think of when I think of a new project, which, to my credit, haven't thought of a new thing in a long time. Can we step back? When was the last time I was like, I'm going to build this?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
a while your spirit is crushed oh no is it i feel like i have kind of like changed in some ways and i'm trying to figure out what it is uh i'm just like kind of cool with like my job and just like doing one thing whoa where did this come from i just to me my my feeling of it just seemed like you're really busy and i've just been occupying your energy yeah but like i'm busy with one thing that i've decided to make the one thing i'm busy with it's like
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Normally, even when I'm really busy with something, I still have ideas and the drive to build new things. I don't have that right now.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. I mean, I'm enjoying just working on my thing every day. And also, it's a season of life. With the stuff we've been going through as a family, it was based on school and all that. Maybe I just don't have a lot of extra... energy to want to put into something.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
As I'm reflecting, it's like it was like two years. I was on Twitter actively for like two. That's like really not very long. I got a Twitter account. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But like it feels like, wow, I can't believe I'm not really going to be active on Twitter. But like it's kind of a blip on the timeline when you think about it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I don't know. I feel like I've very rarely in my career just had like one thing I was working on. It's always been.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like it's, but what's weird to me, like it feels good, but it doesn't also like, hasn't really like registered, which is weird to me. Yeah. Feels like nothing. It's like, if I didn't notice, then does it really feel good or does it just not feel, maybe I'm just not feeling right now. Huh? did you know you always are feeling something? This is what Casey says.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I thought like, I'll let you know when I'm feeling something. Cause she's like, you don't really share much about your emotions. And I'm like, yeah, I don't really have any. I'll let you know if I have one. She's like, that's not how it works. You always have emotions. He's just about thinking about it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Any moment there's some, you have some emotional state, but maybe your emotion is just like, contentness or boredom or not worth registering. It's not like you always have extreme emotions. Do you think this is true? Maybe this isn't a fact.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I thought it was like your default state is like, it's kind of like when they used to think in physics that there was the void and then like there's places where there is stuff and there's places where there isn't like the void of space. And then they learned like, no, there's no such thing. I think I thought it was like the void. It's like the default is you're not feeling anything.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And then there's little moments of your day where you feel things. And that's the thing that was shattered for me.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And sometimes it like spikes or like, you know, it's very encouraging to me because it means at any given time I can work on thinking about what am I feeling right now? Like there is some feeling there to like archeological dig find.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. I don't think I have a lot of like emotional depth or like, I don't know. Variety.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Maybe. I'm just simple. I'm just a simple. Do you ever wonder what it'd be like to just be really simple, like really unintelligent? Would life just be so much better?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Describes you as very simple, a very silly boy and very simple.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But like you're intelligent. So simple in the way that like, I don't know, there's probably something profound about your being simple, but you're not like unintelligent.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. Now I want to know more about what she means by you being simple. But do you ever think like it'd be nice to just be really like unaware of all the things I'm aware of?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It just feels like it was longer. I don't know. Feels like I was. Yeah. I mean, I've had an account forever.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But you wouldn't know. There's a lot of simple people out there. They don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But I feel like I'd have a lot less anxiety. I feel like a lot of my anxieties are that I know too much.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, you're right. That's everything in life. I mean, high school, remember how long it felt like you were in high school. And when you think about four years now, like how minuscule that is in your whole life.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
money yeah same cars i've got you figured out yeah i'm just easily contented i think also easily contented interesting money in cars apparently yeah yeah the dream house in the dream neighborhood with the white tesla oh no you're a simple man
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you see how I got him confused a little bit?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I am kind of basic. It's interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I have one thing I want to bring up because I got on Twitter just to have something to talk about. I feel like I have nothing to say on this podcast if I don't check Twitter real quick. Looks like Next.js is really going for the look how easy it is to self-host. Next.js. They've got like a whole video series they're doing, I think.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, really? They've just had like a strategy. Can you just, oh, to be a fly on the wall. You know, they were in a little meeting and they're like, okay, let's try this. Let's try being really nice to everybody that's been jerks. And also let's try to do some videos. Let's make some content. Lee, could you head up making some content on how easy it is to self-host next?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Maybe we should make it easy too. I wonder if they said that in the meeting. Like maybe we should actually make it easy to self-host.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Interesting. Can I guess? I'm not going to guess. I know who it was.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm connected. I know people. I have a guess. Okay, it's the one person I know at Vercel. I'm not going to say. I doubt it. Can you message me the guess?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Let me just message. Okay, done. No, no, no. I wonder if anyone could tell what I typed.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
About the warm fuzzies between DAX and Vercel. I started to say SST and Vercel, but it's not. It's DAX and Vercel. Because SST never had a problem with Vercel.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, nice. Like, In good terms.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It was like, look at you guys. We're going to find something new to talk about. If you guys are all just like buddies now, we're not buddies. Well, I mean, that was too far, but not buddies. You're you're on good terms. You're really trying on good terms. Oh, okay. You just trying to spice neutral. Oh, sure. Yeah. Always. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I guess neither side can be too upset about the hostility that has ensued on Twitter because it's good for both sides. There's no such thing as bad attention or something. No, there is. No such thing as bad publicity. No, that's not true.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It is kind of crazy. I mean, the whole school thing, like just how much time now that I have a child in a school system, not at home homeschooling, like how much time is spent educating our kids? And then, like, ultimately, yeah, when you boil it down, you said math. Like, is that the main thing? Is it basically, like, just so they can understand some math?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That's good. That's what you really hated was the amount of, yeah, it's the only thing I really hated air that was sucked out of the room. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
posting yeah but i think it yeah it's just funny how it's ended up playing out well maybe that's why i'm not on twitter anymore maybe that was the only thing that was keeping me around is that kind of drama and the fun there's still drama that happens but you know yeah it just feel kind of played out played out uh i'm gonna see you in new york soon right is that this month no it's next month
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I got to book my airfare.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm sorry. No, I will.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm going to. Even my wife is telling me to book my flight because her mom's going to come into town while I'm gone, but she wants to wait until I book flights so she knows when to come in. And I don't even know what dates. I think Liz told me. Liz did such a good job of sending all the details and I have not done my part.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, really?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, nice. I mean, it is next month, to be fair. Like, I don't know if I've ever booked a flight a month in advance.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I think like three weeks is my, like, that's when I generally would be like, okay, if I don't do it now, tickets are going to get expensive.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
yeah where does everybody book flights these days since google shut down google flights oh google flights is not shut down okay don't do it really on this podcast do it oh okay i'll do it later i just started wondering like what the price is i remember yeah i remember i started to do this and i was like which airport isn't one of them's not closer to everything we're doing than the others it literally doesn't matter it literally doesn't matter into new jersey or new york and both are fine either airport in new york or newark in new jersey is fine
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Okay. Why did they do that? Why did they name a city right next to New York, Newark?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I think so.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Just think of the billions in lost productivity from that stupid name choice.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Newark. And that's. Yeah. Oh, my word. That reminds me. I want to get involved in local city government. Not like I want to run for office or something. I'm just considering. I'm considering going to a town hall or city hall meeting. We got this notice in the mail. Okay. I own property in a place where there are large men can own property. No, stop it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, okay. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, let's do that. I don't think I'm coming back to Twitter. And it's not like I'm going to Mastodon. I'm not those people. I just literally haven't cared about Twitter for months now. And I don't think it's going to come back. I don't think I'm going to regain that feeling. I mean, I used to be addicted to checking Twitter multiple times a day.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
There are, like, large chunks of agricultural land around my neighborhood because it's in the middle of nowhere. I like that. In fact, two of these chunks are my, like, kitchen window view and then, like, the other side of our house.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Is there anything else we really hope kids... You gotta learn to read and write, for sure. Read and write. I mean, yeah.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, that's the... Okay, so this is a trope that, like... When you're in your upper 30s and you own a home on a lot in a neighborhood, you're like, don't build any more houses. I like my view because that's how I feel right now.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Well, there's two big chunks of like 30 and 40 acre land that are agricultural right now. And they're trying to develop on them. Well, one of them they are developing. They just started cutting down trees. And the view out our kitchen window is completely different. It's just like sky now. And it was all trees. It's so sad. It's like all these...
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
hundred-year-old oaks, just giant trees, this huge forest, and they're just cutting it all down. And I'm so upset. And I'm like, oh, those trees, they're not going to be there. I thought they would be there forever. And then it's like, well, I guess I live in a neighborhood where they did that just 20 years earlier. So it's like...
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I can't be mad that they're going to put more houses in a place where they put houses so I can live here. I can be mad.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
My son reads books like a machine. He's read all the first, we like limited to the first three Harry Potters, I think age wise, because we read some guides that were like, don't read the fourth one until they're whatever years old. He's read them all at least three times. The third one's the scariest. The Prisoner Azkaban. Is that black, serious black?
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
So you're saying it's okay to be a NIMBY.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. And we're able to go to this town, this meeting and like vote on whether they can plot this other chunk of land as residential. It's this developer that wants to build a whole neighborhood. They want to like use our little private neighborhood road. It's not private. It's actually a public road. But like right now we live in a neighborhood where there's no through traffic.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
The road that comes in, it's a city street.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's going to change. The street right now just goes into our neighborhood. There's no reason anyone else would be on the street, but they want to like plug it in and it'll be like, we get traffic from all over the place. It's just like stuff I don't want to happen. So I'm going to maybe go to the meeting and be like, listen, I would like this to not happen.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I don't know what grounds I have to stand on. Like, just don't do it, please. Cause it'll make me sad. Like, what can I say?
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I thought I was about to get real advice. And then you just, you went there. Maybe you could come and wear a bomb. It'd be a little more realistic. I don't know. You're, you're brown. Sorry. That was so racist. I got to not say things like that. Okay. Chris, I'll let you decide my fate. You might cut that out. I'm sorry. You say you're brown all the time.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm going to pay for it for sure. I mean, if it were like 2002, you know, right after 9-11, like... maybe it would have been worse. Is it worse later?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm getting a cramp, like a muscle cramp. And I wonder if it's like anxiety over getting canceled. I can just feel it.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Actually, I will get no consequence. I will have no consequences. It's the tree in the forest thing. Speaking of trees and forest, what do I say? Like if I go to like, literally, I want to go to this meeting. I'm an adult. I'm trying to learn how to be like an adult. You know what I mean? Like adults who are like, I'm going to the city hall meeting. What do you say?
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
What could I actually say that would be like, not just, I think the trees are pretty and I don't want them to go away.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
So then he's basically being like, you're killing people. Are you okay? If you're cool killing people, then yeah, go ahead and tear down the bridge.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, yeah.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Wait, wait, wait. One of the most pleasant places in New York in the world? I don't understand that sentence.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Is that the serious black one? Because he ends up being like a good guy and I feel like that makes it less scary. Well, spoiler alert.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
So I don't feel like I have as much of an argument. Like in my case, there's not like, yeah, it's really tough. It's literally just the view. And there is like a lot of wildlife. So all these woods that they're going to get rid of, we used to have deer all over the place. And I feel like there's nowhere for them to be now.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Like they would go between those woods and like the wooded areas between our homes and And I feel like when all that's gone, it's like habitat destruction.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, just lie about it. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Play dirty.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just flash a little meter of some sort that I'm holding. It's gone up to 26 parts per million, okay? Listen, this used to be 24.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
For all the nine-year-olds that listen to us.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
You're the people that make a scene. You end up on YouTube because somebody records it. But you get your way, maybe.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, I can't do that. I don't like conflict.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, no. Okay. Yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'll try the bomb thing. We'll try that.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Well, it's the Ozarks, so...
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Maybe, yeah, I don't know. Like per house, right? I'm assuming. They'll probably make more than anyone selling a domain to Google will, but probably not as much as, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Maybe not. I don't know. He's read them all like at least three times.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, just, like, looking into your windows.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I mean, yeah, you should probably not do that anyway, but, yeah. No, I don't care about that.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I don't... Okay, I've never read the books. I got to come out. I've only watched the movies. When you said Dementor's Kiss, I don't even know what that is.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. It's also just kind of like sounds fun. I mean, like a reason to have a BB gun and to use it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Wow. That sounds kind of fun too. Like just, I mean, not killing animals. I'm a vegan, but like the idea of like the target practice of it, like,
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I want to go paintballing. Can we organize a paintballing thing? Because that just sounds so fun. Like first person paintball. Can we do like a stream? And we film it all? And where we all have cameras. Have we talked about this? I feel like we've talked about this.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It was a great idea. Come to the Ozarks. We'll do a paintball, like a JavaScript paintball war and get all the framework authors. But we all have like GoPros and you can see like our gun. So it looks like Goldeneye, like first person video game. And we're paintballing each other. Let's do it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
You're trying to get jobs acting in a commercial or something, and then on the weekends, you're like, I'm going to go be a zombie. I'm going to put my all into it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Let's do it. Okay. I got to pee. We just got to be done. Cause I got to pee. It just happens. I'm sorry. Bingo. Somebody just got bingo. All right. See ya. See ya.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah, I get it. You read, Dax. You're very well read. It's very impressive.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That JK Rowling, she knew what she was doing. The writing thing though. So my son, big reader, reads a lot, cannot stand writing. He hates it. Like he hates physically writing things out. And he's kind of like perfectionist about it. And like in school, he has to like get a little extra help with writing. And it's like, for what? What are we doing here?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
That is not a skill you're going to need in life. If you can spell and type, why learn to write? I don't write with my hands ever.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
There's a good amount of time you have to learn some stuff every day at school. Writing maybe makes the top whatever five, top five. So it's like might as well do it. It's not that we're trying to kill time. I actually have a newfound respect. I got to go back to an old episode where I was like, public school's dumb. Anybody putting their kid in public school is terrible and blah, blah, blah.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I said a bunch of harsh things and I shouldn't have said those things. Now that I have a kid in school, I have a newfound perspective. He loves going to school. He loves the structure. Our family loves the schedule. As much as we thought it'd be hard to have a 30-minute commute to school and two trips a day to Springfield, it just felt like this could be a lot. Everybody loves it.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's this whole part of the day, and it brings this structure, this schedule to our day that we didn't have. So he says school is a nine and nine hundred and ninety nine thousandths out of ten. Like he's been team school ever since we put him in school. Yeah. So I have this newfound respect for like, it's OK that he spends a lot of hours out of the home and that he's thriving in that environment.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
But then I think like they don't really need that much time to learn what's probably important that they learn, right? I still feel like there's a lot of fluff in a school schedule, and that's okay. But when we boil it down, at the end of his schooling, what do we really care about? I don't care if he memorizes all the world's wars and the battles.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
There's stuff that we learned growing up that's like, why? I can Google anything I need to know on that front. If it's facts and trivia, I just don't need... my kids learning that stuff. So what is important? We've had this conversation a lot in my life. Like, what is important? We care about him learning math. That seems important. Yeah, I don't know. It's only a few things.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
We want him to be curious. We want him to like, maybe this is like the modern stereotypical parent answer. We want him to like pursue his own interests and have that kind of like agency in life. That's what we hope he gets out of schooling. And I think this school is pretty good. I think like he's going to get some of that. I don't know. Do you have thoughts on that? Is there a vacuum cleaner?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
What's going on in your house right now? Zuko, like, destroying things?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
united states citizen like you would probably come up with more abstract things to spend time on okay so there's a bit of like just preparing you for society to like be a member of this society there's certain contexts and cultural things that you could get out of school that aren't just like what is the most optimal education yeah yeah like it's uh i mean i i bring up avatar a lot but like there's a lot of stuff in that show that i think is like critical to the
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's funny. When you said Avatar, you talk about it a lot. I don't remember you ever talking about it. That doesn't mean you never talked about it. I just don't remember. So what is Avatar? I thought we talked about it a lot. Wait, Mindbender? What's it called?
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
And now I go days without looking at it. And I don't even think about it. When I do open Twitter... I scroll for like 30 seconds and I'm like, there's nothing here I care to see. And that's no offense to you or anybody else on Twitter. But it's just the same stuff that like, I'm not even drawn to like technical discussion anymore or like dev stuff.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Airbender.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Oh, okay. I didn't remember that it was Avatar. I'm thinking like James Cameron, Big Blue People. That's what, when you said Avatar, that's what I thought.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. Okay. I'll stop dismissing things. That's my nature, is to just dismiss whole categories of things. History, social studies, don't need it. Get out of here.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Are you kidding me?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I'm sorry. Back up.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
It's built on top of zero. What was zero? And is it void zero related? Replicash is a new thing. Oh, Replicash. Right. Okay. Yeah. Which I've been playing with. No relation to void zero.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Okay. Or v0.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Or v0. Oh, geez. That's another one. What is that? Is that a Vercel thing? That's the product?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. Is that like a big better? We got to circle back to that. Not yet. So one is a new JavaScript framework built on top of Zero. So it's actually good. Replicash, zero, good. Yeah. This new framework also built by the Replicash people or someone else?
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
There's just nothing that could be said on Twitter that I'd be like excited to open the app for.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Okay. All the way down to styling.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Or not care. It's hard for me to be excited about these ideas having spent the last few months in this world. I hate this world so much.
How About Tomorrow?
New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
Yeah. Like AppSync, but good. Sorry.
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New JavaScript Framework, Does Adam Feel, and a New Story Arc for Dax?
I love the ideas that this brings into, like, I love the idea of not having to build like individual end points for my API and to just have this thing that I can build on top of kind of front end first local first, whatever it's called. I don't know. I love the idea.
How About Tomorrow?
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I think the reality is historically there was no possibility for any kind of wealth unless you were a port owner. and you could tap into trade. So every major city is just on the water. And now there's like a side effect of that is you're exposed to any kind of water, natural disaster.
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what major city is wealthy and like technically chicago but isn't chicago port yeah yeah i mean the great lakes are like i don't know but like didn't they use that to trade with like i don't know i'm gonna make some shit up no yeah from canada maple syrup i don't know where like everybody was like stopping around in the canadian woods like trapping yeah raccoons and shit like oh it's funny
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Like, what's the point? Yeah. And even things like Philadelphia, like, it's on the river, so they could trade up and down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. I guess that makes sense. That said, humans, I've always felt... The thing you were saying, like, why did we establish a thing there? I feel this way about the whole Earth in general. Like...
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Well, they established a new company called Void Zero, and their goal is to make a unified JavaScript tool chain.
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if you look at the whole earth there's clearly places that are way nicer to live where the food's more abundant why are a bunch of humans in the middle of the desert like how did why is canada populated at all why are there people in canada i don't understand we're just like we'll live anywhere and we'll just make it work or not people aren't just like it's true yeah yeah i mean some people just want their space i guess like
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Even then, like, it's crazy to me that like, there's so many of these crazy cities in the middle East. Oh, I guess there's oil there now, which is what, um, oil built those, those cities, but, but even historically, right? Like, I mean, all the ancient cities, isn't like the original, like Mesopotamia is not like, actually, no, that was on a river. So that makes sense. Um,
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But yeah, I just feel like there's like the desert case, but then there's also like the really cold, like Scandinavian, like Northern area. Why did you guys go all the way up there? What were you following?
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Which I think if puts them in the same category as Bunn, more or less, I think that's almost... Near overlap. Like computing. Minus the runtime. Bun? I think Bun is a superset in a lot of ways. I think Bun would consider, even if they're not focusing on the same things right now, I think Bun would consider everything Void Zero is doing as something they eventually want to do.
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Yeah, I think it's challenging. But your wife is a little older than five.
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I've met a lot of people recently that are super into board games.
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And I want to get more into it. I actually have one here that I borrowed that I need to play.
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They're all bad. That's what's so crazy. Like, I don't know why I never put this together. It's like all the ones that we know of, like even Risk. Like, Risk is fun, but... It's not like someone like tried really, really hard to come up with like the coolest thing ever. And there's like a whole world of that, of people that have tried that hard.
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Like they figured out how to make really good board games. Yeah. Like there's board games that take like an hour to set up and you play over several days and you need to like leave it. It's crazy.
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I've never finished a game of Monopoly. You have it more fun. Yeah. Monopoly, I feel like... Literally, I think it's actually a very bad game. And the only thing it has going for it is like the money feels so cool and fun. And I think that's the only reason anyone is ever like, oh, let's get Monopoly or let's play Monopoly. But the game actually driven by.
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I think McDonald's might have played Monopoly. Paid Monopoly.
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But who has... Like, Monopoly's not going to move more. That's what I'm saying.
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That's true, yeah.
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I don't think Void Zero is going to build a JavaScript runtime. I think that's outside their scope.
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Oh, that's a good question.
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Hasbro has owned the rights to Monopoly since 91 when it acquired Parker Brothers, the maker of the game.
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I just saw a picture of the Monopoly board and just like it just brought back the crazy nostalgia. Yeah.
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Oh, is it like a mix of?
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It must be like a rev share, though.
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Do they need more exposure? No, no. I think it's just ways to sell more. Like if I own Harry Potter, the brand, I'm just going to like partner with every single product maker to slap my shit on it.
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Yeah. It must just be like the Disney machine.
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I'm pretty sure Disney is like their publisher or like the equivalent. Because like... Oh, jeez. So complicated. Oh, is it Universal?
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They've both raised money. I went on Prime Stream a bit to talk about this a bit because I'll just give you the spiel real quick. So with a lot of these projects, these open source projects that are very free and fundamentally need to be open source and free, the question of what's the business model always comes up. And that's a valid question. But the point I made was
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Because Universal Studios... Because they have the... It's Universal. It's not a... Yeah. Which makes sense because that's what did the movies. Yeah. I think so. So they are remaking Harry Potter as an HBO TV show. And... We're old enough to remake Harry Potter? I really don't see how this is a good idea because the original Harry Potter movies... Yes, different actors. Oh, no, don't do this.
How About Tomorrow?
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The original Harry Potter movies were very good. You can watch them today and they don't feel outdated. Still good. They can show them to someone new and they don't feel outdated. Uh-huh. And I feel like this can really only be worse. And it's the same story. And I don't want to, we've all seen this story like a billion times already.
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I mean, I've been thinking about this a bit. And I've seen some people in Hollywood talk about it. And it's so funny. It's like the same thing that happens in business, which is... eventually organizations just become crazy risk averse to an irrational degree, right? So if I'm someone that's going to produce, I work at a movie studio, I'm going to produce a movie.
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If it fails, that looks really bad on me. But if I attach it to some existing IP, nobody could say that it was a bad decision. Cause like there's like a safety, there's like a perceived safety net of like, well, I wasn't taking some crazy risk. I was just like betting on a sure thing, you know?
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So there's been so many cases that I've heard of where there will be a script, brand new concept, new script. They will take the script and attach it randomly to some existing thing, just so it feels like more de-risked.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
There's something. Yeah. I mean, I feel this comes up. This comes up a lot. Yeah, it's super annoying. And I feel like this is happening. Like you brought up football. I feel like it's happening everywhere where we're just in this like weird phase of... It's like really short-term minded. And you would think that looks like craziness, but it actually looks very boring.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, the thing with Hollywood is like turning out sequels and stuff. There has to be some like corrective...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Oh, no. So they're like they're like headline thing is like the Avengers movies. Right. And that series ended with like all the famous actors in the last 10 years, like their stories ending and like their contracts basically. So that's what they're kind of struggling now. But they're making the next series of Avenger movies. And the main bad guy in it who's playing it, Robert Downey Jr.,
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I don't know if we talked about this already, but these are venture scale companies, very different than a traditional company. The example I gave was if search engines didn't exist and someone invented a search engine today, people would ask what's the business model. And the company would be like, Oh yeah, we'll give you like 10 free searches a day.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
They just brought him back as a different character.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's unclear. It could be in a different dimension, like Tony Stark went bad, or it could just be he's a totally different person. Oh my goodness. At some Comic-Con, a bunch of these masked... People showed up on stage and the one guy in the front removed his mask and it was Robert Downey Jr. And everyone went nuts.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
And I'm like, yeah, like this is like another flavor of this rebooting thing where they're rebooting the actor, you know?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
and forever yeah we've really struggled to um there is still some good stuff and even within the zone of like they're just like doing the ip thing um have you seen the last of us no
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
The Last of Us was a really good video game. Narratively, it was one of the best narratives in any video game ever. And they made two games. And HBO made a TV show. They did one season of the first game, and now the second season is about to come out, I think, at the beginning of next year. Phenomenally good. Really, really good.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's a classic post-apocalyptic thing. Some kind of... In this case, it wasn't a virus. It was like a fungus. And it destroyed society. There's some people that are surviving. And if you get even scratched or something, you turn into this crazy zombie thing. And there's this girl that got scratched. So everyone's like, you're fucked. And they usually just kill them right away.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But for a reason, they didn't kill her. And she started to recover. So the story is... This really reluctant guy who's like kind of like he lost his own daughter like way at the beginning, right when everything was going down in a really crazy way. And he's like reluctantly agreeing to take this girl to some research facility like across the country.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So they travel across the country and it's like some of the most intense. like hard to watch situations that they like run into. And the acting is amazing. Like everything is done really, really well. Yeah. And that's technically just like this IP juffling thing, but they did a really good job with it.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. I think the production quality of TVs have gone up. TVs, TV shows have gone up a lot.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
And then if you want to go over that, we'll charge you $10 a month. Right. Um, and you would probably make a lot of money doing that, especially if it's as good as Google is. And there was no other search engine. Uh, but it would never be a product that every single person in the world used.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, it's changed a lot and it feels like the gap is closed. But if you actually like because there's been some things that have been even like an animated movie, animated TV show that gets a movie, you're like, oh, what's the difference? It's just like a two hour long episode. But they actually look. Yeah, there's still like a gap if you like pay attention.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But like obviously the gap gap is closing. But I mean, now there's some shows, mostly actually failures that like their budgets are like 30 million dollars an episode. The episode is one hour. That's roughly the same budget as like a hundred million dollar movie. Um, yeah. So yeah, the buds are, are, are closing in, but there's still really good movies.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I still think the movie side, there's still really good ones. There's just a lot of junk. Um, it's junk on both sides, I think.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I know the stories of, I like know a bunch of stories from that book. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I can see that. Yeah. Toy Story 3 came out the month that I graduated high school.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Even for us, it was really intense even just for...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Right. There's natural friction with, with the paid tier. And eventually someone would build, a version that's not paid. Uh, and if you do build the version that's not paid and everyone in the world starts to use it, you now have this opportunity to build a trillion dollar ads business. Right. Which is really, really hard to imagine ahead of time.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I think they definitely got better at that. And I think it's similar to video games where it was such a technological effort at first that like...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
also executing on narrative on top of that was really difficult but then you've seen over time that uh they're hitting like like video games are hitting like movie levels of like narrative and acting and i think that probably something really happened to to animated stuff um have you noticed that every pixar movie and a lot of kids movies the plot is we got lost we got to get home that's like the plot of so many kids movies yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yep. That was Finding Nemo. Like, it's the exact story. It really is. Exactly.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. And obviously it's the stuff that happens in between is different, but the rough, you start off with your home. Some, some mistake happens. You're not home. Then you have to get back home. Yeah. Well, home alone is fun. Cause that's a reverse. Oh, he was home.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
What else? I'm looking at the Pixar movies. Coco, again, he gets lost in the afterlife and he has to get back home. Ratatouille is different. Have you seen Ratatouille? No. Ratatouille is very good. It's the cooking mice?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Is that Pixar? Uh, yes.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
The little girl seen that gets lost in the monster world and has to get back home.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Was that the plot of Up too? Like they also get lost in the house.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Up you just can't watch. I couldn't watch it. It was hard as a kid.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
You should definitely watch the first one. It's a classic. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, I think the thing that they do great is it's a kids movie that's really...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
entertaining as an adult so it's truly like a family movie it's like there's like two two things going on at once like two storylines yeah yeah and that way you're like not bored as an adult you know yep oh inside out another one i don't know if you saw the latest inside out yeah i did yeah those movies are fun i like i think that metaphor is brilliant and just leads to like a lot of really funny funny things i can do with it i will say we we watched that one and i couldn't uh help but notice that i am anxiety but
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Like it's so hard to imagine like every single thing, if we capture a hundred percent market, like what are the business models? Like none of us would have come up with that. Google just serves as not on their own properties, but like across the whole internet and other sites, like, uh, it's like a giant, giant business that came out of this thing. And it feels like really random and unrelated.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
That's the moral of the story. Have you noticed that when they zoom into the parents' brains, that a different emotion leads them?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Like for the main character, it's joy, but then the dad, it's anger. And then for the mom, it's sadness or like whatever. Interesting.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I didn't catch that. The metaphor is so good. They can think through all these little things. Oh, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But they won't get to hear it till next week.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So with these companies, it's the question isn't really what's a business model. The question is, do they have a big enough goal? In Bun's case, it's every piece of JavaScript ever executed should happen inside Bun. That's a really big goal. I can see that. I can see that potentially. Same with Void Zero. Like their goal is all JavaScript builds
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
uh anything like pre-run time building linting whatever that should all run through their tooling um And if they get to that level, there's probably going to be interesting business models that open up. It's going to be hard to invent them. Like there's companies like Docker that got to that level and then like really struggled to figure out how to invent a business model.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Uh, yeah, I know you skipped last week.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
But the moment Docker did find something, they went from like zero to 100 million AR in a year. So it's just like that's kind of what venture scale stuff is like. It's really hard to see business model up front. But when you crack it, it's like.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
boom so uh to be fair i don't i don't know if this stuff is actually going to work out i'm not saying that it will but uh yeah it's just very unclear right now and but that's like just not the question the question is like can they actually grow to that level
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I think for a very long time, yeah, it's an interesting story. They're actually a really interesting story for anyone who wants to understand. There's like some write-up about their whole business history. And if anyone wants to understand this space, it basically captures every type of thing that can happen. So they did the impossible. They made something that changed the world.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Like every single, like Docker is massively impactful. Totally changed how we deploy stuff. It's everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. But the immediate winners were incumbents. Google Cloud, AWS. All the big cloud just added it. They already had the distribution. They had Docker support. Docker does not see really a penny of any of that. So Docker struggled for a long time.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
We had to replace you with someone. So I wasn't here talking to myself.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
And then it seemed like they were about to go under. And then they...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
just really focused on docker for desktop i think which is like really weird i don't really understand it uh and i just hate it on my mac i just hate docker for desktop so that's why i don't know if it's a good product but it just it was just an angle that they could take uh that the big clouds would never and that's where they made a bunch of money is that like super long-term sustainable i don't know but they did hit 100 million arr with that which justifies you know like billion multi-billion dollar valuation so yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
okay it's it's hard because i said that they had to do two things right they had to like do the first impossible thing then like somehow capture value dodging all the big giant companies trying to get there before you uh and they did they're always going to get there before you or even if they get there later they're just going to win um like bun for example the same situation like if bun becomes the fault way people do javascript
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Obviously, Google, AWS are all going to add support for it. So it's going to be tricky. But yeah, I agree. It's hard.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Except for the browser, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who's to say like the void zero thing, like the most obvious path for them is if they are handling all these like heavy, crazy builds, giant companies need like really, really good caching systems and typically pay for them or willing to pay for them. So they could build like a service that matches that. Again, I don't know if that's a venture scale thing, but yeah,
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
it's like not totally out of the question that there's there's ways that even now we could imagine what they could do but again it's just not the goal there's no point in monetizing something that doesn't win when it comes to venture scale so try to win first interesting try to win i mean yeah that makes sense i guess i said the dev tools thing and then i forgot sst is also the same
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
situation yeah so i'm not saying that's why i know it's like it's i have mixed feelings because it's i know how unlikely and hard and difficult it is and how i think the problem actually is that everything i just described i actually don't even know if the founders in this space understand what this is what they signed up for i technically didn't when i joined sst and i understood this a lot better yeah a couple years ago but yeah if you don't understand this then what you're gonna do is like focus on
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
like the business model too early. And then it turns out like your product doesn't even win. And like the whole thing is a waste of time.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
DevTools is like very... I would say DevTools is close to B2C companies.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, but I mean, if it works, it works. Yeah. But yeah, exactly. Like, I think there's like a over-rotation on, it's just, I think when you're, when you're observing some of these things, I feel like you get the right conclusion, but not really. Right.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Adam, this is literally the guy that made that bingo card of our podcast. Oh, no. This is one of the things I say. This is one of the things I say. Oh, let's try new stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So we had a period of time where there was these like really big blowups of like overfunded companies that just never had a business model and never made sense. And a lot of people witnessed that. So now there's like this thing of like, Anytime they see a company saying something like pre-revenue or we'll worry about the business model later, they're like, oh, it's one of those.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's going to blow up and fail.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's technically a fine word that also has a more intense meaning.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I mean, it's just easy to remember the negatives and forget the positives because the ones that win become so...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
normal that you like just don't ever think about them that hard yeah yeah again docker venture funded uh all the hashicorp stuff venture funded like ghosty technically wouldn't exist unless yeah you know he had a nice exit where he can kind of focus on that it's true all the hash a lot of hash course stuff is really great like like terraform a bunch of things like that so
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, just the ones that are good do the thing that's hard, which is you become invisible because you're just like a default. Yeah, and nobody talks about it. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, some of this stuff is really crazy. Like we were talking internally yesterday about like, okay, if our growth continues, what will our competition look like?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Because we start to eat into places that technically are competitive with companies we aren't competing with today. And it is a funny dynamic where... It's only a problem once you start making money, like a lot of money. Otherwise, people just look at you as like, oh, that's a cute project. Even if you're growing a ton and become really popular, they're like, not...
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
really copy you or try to like stop it yeah so there's a lot of benefit to staying small with your revenue for as long as possible because it catches the competition off guard as we're spending into their markets because like a big established company is never going to be like uh oh this like open source project is getting really popular we need to make sure we clone it there just be like what do you mean like they're not making any money why would we waste time on that
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
by the time they see it by the time it actually starts to impact them it's like too late um so yeah there's a lot of funny dynamics with being pre-revenue some like advantages or low revenue rather speaking of pre-revenue uh can you catch me up on the hurricane there's a big hurricane hitting today sorry yes i'm known for my transitions yeah it's uh it's funny yeah
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
No, they keep pushing the landfall time further and further. Hurricanes move slow. Yeah, I think I've caught that. Do you know the speed of a hurricane, like in terms of how fast it travels? No, like across the ocean? Yeah, because you always hear wind speeds of 165 miles an hour, but the hurricane itself is moving at below 10 miles an hour. Are you serious? Wow. It's so slow.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
So land absorbs a lot of the hurricane's power. So you'll see as it hits land, it weakens. But right now it's still forecast to hit Tampa. I'm not gonna be affected if that's the case.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I just Googled it. It went from five to four to five again. They think when it hits, it'll be a three.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. It's weird because it's almost like binary. There's just a bunch of structures that are still not able to deal with any kind of hurricane. And when they get a direct hit, all those structures are affected.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Has anything happened? I don't know. What's new?
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
There's this feeling, there's like this feeling I wish I can communicate properly when you see all these hurricanes flying around. It feels like you're just like It feels like you're playing dodgeball, and the ball is just flying around you, and somehow they're not hitting.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
It's funny, though, because the hurricanes sometimes have crazy pads, right? This hurricane started in the Gulf, which I didn't even know was a thing. It can start from the left side? What the hell? I thought it all came from the right.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I mean, I guess they do. I just never... I don't even know if it's atypical. I just never realized that. But like the last one, I think it was last year, it was going to hit Tampa, but then I think it went south and hit Naples. Yeah. It came from the right, like hooked around and it came back and then hit.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
I guess the main thing was Veet finally announced their round, which they closed a long time ago, but I guess they didn't go public.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah. So it feels like someone's throwing these like crazy trick shots. At the US.
How About Tomorrow?
Vite, Docker, Hurricane Update, Board Games, and Pixar Movies
Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what's funny. It's like random canals, which are like everywhere. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And it might be this weird counterintuitive thing where if it turns out that half the time you're doing stuff that she disagrees with, she might still like you a lot more overall because at least it's not this weird thing. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Like you, you can do it. And then, and then she has a right to like find it annoying and complain about it too. Like that's what, that's all okay. Yeah. Healthy dynamics. And it's the normal part of.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Uh, on Tuesday, I deleted our primary database.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, because I'm waiting to figure some... I'll explain why.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So, on Tuesday night, or it was Wednesday night, I forgot. Wait, what day was the election? It was Tuesday.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Uh, I was watching the election and I'm like, okay, it's midnight. I'm going to do this big, uh, console deployment that we've been working on for a couple of weeks. Uh, and I did it all in dev and it went great. And I went to do it in production and I was like halfway through it. And then all of a sudden I was like, why is my SSD deployment erroring saying 404 database not found.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And then I go log into plant scale and it's an empty account. And I'm like, wow that is really bad uh what happened so in the moment i didn't realize i didn't understand what happened i was like i must have messed up our infrastructure's code somehow uh and like removed the database and then done a deploy yeah and then so like deleted the database
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So I was like, I'm not going to try to figure out what happened. I just need to get this fixed. So I ended up texting Sam, who's been on our podcast, the CEO of PlanetScale. It was embarrassing because I'm like, you know, I did like freaking delete it. I deleted our database. Like all of it is gone.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And then he replies, okay, like he asked me a few questions and he goes, you're so lucky that our CTO is at my house right now. They happen to be like hanging out together.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, I don't think you... But it's like, the reason I'm saying, uh, is like, that was an expectation that... I don't know. I wouldn't even think of that as a possibility, really.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And the CTO found it. Look at this service. They found the EBS volume that, you know, obviously when you delete something, they don't like immediately wipe everything. Yeah, sure. But I was worried that they'd probably have some process that runs at some point where it is not recoverable.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. So he found the EBS volume and just marked it as like to not delete or whatever. He's made sure that it wouldn't get deleted while the support team could eventually restore it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So I was waiting on the support team. At this point, it was like 1 a.m. my time. And I stayed up till like 2.30 waiting. And then I was like, I need to sleep. Cause I'm not, it's like no point in just me waiting. And I woke up and the database was back.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Uh, and like, it turned out like, of course, 10 minutes after I went to sleep, they like, they did the restore and then, uh, and I got everything back. And at that point I could like investigate what the issue was. And I still haven't fully gotten down to it, but this is actually was a bug either in, uh, I haven't found figure out where the source of the bug is. It's either in, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
or it's in the Terraform provider for PlanetScale. You know how you can import resources into existing... So this PlanetScale database we had was before stv3, so it was manually created. So I wrote in my stconfig to import it. There's just a really weird quirk that seems to just happen with the PlanetScale database, because I've tested this with other resources,
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
If it's flagged as being, this is an imported resource, and you do a deploy multiple times for removing the line that makes it import, it was creating another entry for that import. So it was importing the database multiple times. And then when the deploy would finish, it would clean up the old one. But it's like two entries for the same database. So it's like, oh, I got the new one.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Let me delete the old one. But the old one's pointing to the same database as well. So the mistakes I made on my end are anything important, you should flag as retain on delete.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, yeah. So if I had set that flag, if I remember to set that flag, I was like, this is an important, like I never want, it being deleted in an automated way. Like you need to flag this as retain on delete. I did not do that. The second thing is the API key I generated for PlanetScale. I had initially generated a really granular one.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And some point during the process, like while I was working on it, I lost the key. So I had to regenerate it and I was being lazy the second time. So I just made a key that could do everything. But there was no reason for this key to have the ability to delete databases. It was never needed. So I updated that now. With those two changes, it's impossible for this thing to be deleted anyway.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So we actually made an update to... So we actually have a list internally in SST of any resources that we think are popular that this can happen to. So we automatically mark them as retain on delete. So we add the PlanetScale database to that. And this will just be an ever-growing list of... uh, resources that we've just, it's probably good. Even if the person forgets, that's a better default.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. The better default. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, I have to still look up to see why this happened because I've tried with other resources and you can import the same resources multiple times and it just overwrites the existing one. It doesn't like create a new one and try to remove the previous one. Um, but yeah, it was, uh, it was bad.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, yeah. So it's data that is not recoverable anywhere else. Yeah. Here's another interesting dynamic that... I don't think this is going to change my opinion or make me actually do anything different, but it is something I considered where managed services are really good because somebody else will deal with problems, but...
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
if this had happened on AWS where I have more direct access to stuff, it's like in my control to fix it immediately. Cause like I have.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And then like, you know, AWS would have had the snapshots on delete anyway. So it would have just been up to me to restore it from, from the snapshot. Yep. Whereas now I have to wait on a support team. That said, we're not paying for any higher tier. If we were probably paying for a higher tier, we probably would have gotten more immediate support.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
We already got more support than we should have.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, exactly. We shouldn't have even gotten that given what we're paying. Yeah. But I think we were looking to see what... Because we were kind of surprised. We're like, how come they even had someone up at 3 a.m. to do this? Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. But I guess it's because they're really enterprise. They're actual customers. You know, pay them real money. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I think they literally have like five minute response SLAs or something like that. SLAs? Wow.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And I think we got a little special treatment because I think one of the staff that was They're like meant to serve those use cases and ended up restoring the database. So super appreciative, really stupid on our end. We'll try to pay it back by like really figuring out what the root cause was and making sure that this doesn't happen to other people.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And if you're not tired of that, if you just need the database at all, Just consider Planetscale as your first choice. And if it doesn't work for you, then you can consider other stuff. It's kind of my, I go there first. And if I can't use it for whatever reason, then I do something else. But it's not good, in my opinion.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like an AI-generated stamp.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Dax approves.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
People would get so pissed at that. They'd be like, who the fuck are you to have this opinion? You put your stamp on this thing and I hate this thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You're looking at me funny or is there a huge delay? No, no, no. I'm just laughing because I'm like, I think I would have given you the preview. Yeah, you were going to give it to me anyway. Yeah. Here's what happens. I always finish editing a video and I'm so excited. I just need to show people. And I'm like, I can't because I need to time it very specifically for when we release something. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So I'm always in misery for like 12 hours. This morning.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. This morning I was like, Jay, I want to post a video. Like, I know you will have this blog post you're writing, but like, let me know when it's done. And I just got so impatient. I was like, fuck it. I'm just posting it. Give me the blog post. I'll post it later. Yeah. But I, so I made that video. It took me exactly one day. I started yesterday. Probably around, like, planned it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And then I showered and shaved my head so I could look okay. And then I filmed from, like, noon to... I finished editing around, like, 10 p.m. It was a one-day effort. That was my first time filming entirely on an iPhone.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, because it's, like, just the floor of it is... Sorry, Sam just texted me. But it's not related to what we were just talking about. He goes, I did not wake up this morning expecting to see your nips. Every day is an adventure.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I mean, you're wearing a shirt. It's a thank you for the great support you guys gave us.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Um, but yeah, so I am really into this iPhone thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And so this is the first thing that I actually try to do with it. So I bought this rig that you like slot your iPhone into and it has like nice handles. I mean, we talked about it already in the podcast last time. This is the first thing that I filmed with it. And it was such a great experience. Like it's just so versatile. It's like so much less cumbersome. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
when you need to like rework stuff because something doesn't go according to plan it's pretty easy and the video quality is is pretty good it's great yeah like i'm looking at still frames of it right now yeah like it's uh it looks very good i just dropped in the standard lut that apple um gives you which uh you know i probably should have tweaked it it's like a little oversaturated but you know it's pretty good for what it's good
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's funny because... There's so many people replying, be like, oh, what a wealth flex. Like, you know, he's so rich that he can just spend this and not give a shit. It's actually not a wealth flex. It's actually a deep confidence in myself. That's what I'm flexing right there. I had no doubt that I wasn't going to drop it. It was on hard tile floor.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And I spun it a bunch of times throughout the day and I didn't drop a one.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
High confidence, really.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Just for my ultimate days, you know, spinning a Frisbee on my finger.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
That sounds really cool. Yeah. The other thing was I did not use any external mics. I just used the onboard iPhone mics. The iPhone 16 has three microphones on it now, and it does... a pretty good job. So that, that blew my mind.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And remember how noisy my backyard is because the highway is right there. And it was pretty windy too. So that plus like a tiny bit of processing during editing. Yeah. It's a, yeah, it's clearly none of it is as good as a pro setup, but yeah, It's so close that the cumbersome trade-off is just like, you're just going to produce better stuff because it's more flexible. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm pretty excited. We're going to use this in New York. Nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Are you still going? It's a roller coaster.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
trying to figure out what life looks like the only thing is it can't really be day by day for this because like we need to figure out a solution if you can't go yeah yeah yeah that only occurred to me this morning i was like before i was like yeah it's fine you can figure it out but it's like okay that that's the one thing that okay i will let you know is a little critical one of these day by day it's not a big deal either way we just need to know what we need to buy on our end okay um which we can do uh
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, I bumped from the 15 to 16 just because of the mic thing. And I gave Liz my 15.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I've had it for a couple months now. It was during TwitchCon. Was that new? I think.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It probably came out two months ago.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Okay. Don't worry about the meta stuff. Let's just start talking. I will, to balance it, I also had something embarrassing and very annoying happen to me at the beginning of this week.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm thinking about that goose meme. What's the goose meme? Do you know the goose meme where the goose is like chasing the guy asking him a question?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Is it a duck? It's this one. It's this meme. I found it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, everything about that sentence is wrong.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Or goose or whatever. Is this a goose or is this a duck? What did you send me? The one I just sent you.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Except he's asking, how'd your phone break? How'd your phone break?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
People replace that with something that's wrong. I get that.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Is that why? Oh, that confirms it's a goose.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Maybe that makes sense.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Okay. What else is going on? Let's see. Let's see. Let's see.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I will share that afterwards.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So I have a grand explanation for all of this.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So to me, this is a very bad situation. So here's my psychological analysis of everything that happened. So Guillermo tweeted, congratulations, Donald Trump. And then he posted, it's crazy to see the impact of X. And he listed a bunch of things that he was like, it's crazy that this stuff had an impact on it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
The reason he did that is because he's trying to fit in with like the Silicon Valley, like very serious CEO crowd. Because if you look at it, all the billion dollars, you know, company, public company CEOs are posting that. So his message wasn't deeply insightful. It was just kind of like this vague, like, you know, mimicry of that vibe.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It was definitely a very tough week.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So in a way, it's a little sad because it's like he was just trying to fit in with his group. Yeah. And then the people reading it read it as an extremely strong endorsement of certain things that they don't agree with. And they found that very disappointing. And everyone was really pissed at him. But the reason I find it sad is because he wasn't doing that, guys.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
He was just trying to fit in with his group that he wants to fit in with. And then everyone's really pissed at it. Yeah, I mean, on one hand, I get it. The timing of it was insane, especially to an audience that leans pretty much in one direction.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't know if I would call it valid. I think I understand it. Um, I obviously don't have that reaction at all anywhere remotely to that reaction. I think, you know, everyone has different levels of emotions at the end of the day. And I get how literally, you know, in the, in the, like within 12 hours of the event, um,
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Probably people, you know, saw it in a much more extreme way than it was intended. And they disagree. They finally disagree. And I think that it's... They don't feel aligned with... this company and the tool. And I get that. And you're totally allowed to feel that way. And to like, you know, I don't agree with this thing where people are like, you should not boycott people over politics. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I wouldn't. Yeah. I personally wouldn't, but I think people should, should be allowed to do that. Yeah. And just like, it's, it's, it's fine. It's just, to me, it was just like a, Funny, dynamic, because it wasn't intentional. It was treated as a heavy endorsement, but it wasn't.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Oh, was it really? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's, it's funny. Cause it's, it's technically virtually on the other side too, because why is Tim Cook and. Like, why are they doing this? It's because they are. enormous companies that face heavy regulation burden and they need to cozy up to whoever the current administration is. And Guillermo's like, yeah, us too. We're also like that. We're also that important.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Look out for Vercel.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's just a funny situation. I think it upset a lot of people and I'm sure the employees within, and I've talked to a few people that are
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
that work inside purcell that you know didn't didn't like that and i think if i want to make the case for people that are upset with it it's that generally this is fine no matter who wins an election like there's two candidates you agree with one screw the other it's fine it's a democracy it's the outcome of the election um and you know everything you're saying makes sense i think the way people feel is this candidate is so outside the bounds of what's acceptable that
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Anyone treating it like a normal situation is implicitly saying that this is... I'm normalizing this candidate as a normal person, but people believe that this is... So outside the range of anything normal, we shouldn't do anything that might potentially normalize this type of behavior. I get it. I see that argument. Yeah, sure.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It was like a colossal loss. It was like a slap in the face, right? They did so bad across the board, everywhere, Senate, House of Representatives. Compare every single county to how Biden performed. And Biden was like such a nothing candidate to be in with. It was like... It's just like...
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They've had so many moments where they should have like been like, we need to pivot drastically because we're like failing in places we should not be failing at all. Yeah. And you kind of wonder like at what point do they realize like we got to stop fucking around and like just go for the win. Yeah. And do what we need to go for the win.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And what they need to do for that has been kind of obvious for a very long time. So yeah, I just don't know why it doesn't happen.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm pretty simple on this front. I think a few things that they do wrong is every, every politician when they were campaign, they're supposed to do some very basic things, make very concrete promises so that the average person can understand what they're getting when they elect you. You know, most of the times these are like effectively lies or they don't happen, but that's like the thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
When I say Trump, you know that you get border, you get tax cuts, you get like these like any average person can probably tell you what they are. Yeah. If I say, you know, the other candidate, what, what, what is their thing? What are you getting with that? Sure. Nobody knows.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Not only is she half Indian, she's actually from the exact same part of India as me.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't like her and I don't think she's a good candidate, so it's fine.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And that's kind of what I'm saying. Well, that is true, but... I don't think the reason they lost was because the Democrats failed to win over really passionate people. What happened was they just failed to win over, they just failed to win over, like, People that don't care that much.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And Trump is always going to have like that side of the passionate equivalent on their side. Right. Yeah. It just felt like people were like, I don't care about the details. Like, here's X, Y, Z reasons why I'm happy. And there's one candidate says he's going to fix X, Y, Z things. Whereas I feel like Democrats entire thing, they keep doing this is they're
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
All they talk about is how they're not this other person, how this other person is really bad in X, Y, Z ways. And even though those things are true, it's just not what the average person is looking for. Yeah. So that's one thing. And the second thing is just actually just steal what the Republicans talk about and just make that your own talking points.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Because they're just basic things that everyone, the average person cares about. Yeah. I feel the Democrats are really focused on these really complex issues. like crazy ideas that don't really impact most people. Like just kind of flush that side of the stuff out of your party and just be like kind of boring and be like, we're going to make you richer. We're going to make you safer. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You do that. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Just do that. Be boring. Be straightforward. Pick a candidate that like is like a Southern governor or something. That's a Democrat. There's a few of those. I just can't see you not winning if you do that. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Was it a Southern state or from Minnesota? Yeah. Midwest. Like, you know, he's pretty, he's pretty close.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They were considering the one from Pennsylvania. Okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They're considering the governor of Pennsylvania. He was like, I guess there's no one state that decided this one.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It was just sort of like a sweep. It's like, how did you do worse than Biden?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
The other thing is, uh, I think this has gotten more extreme over time. I think it's going to be very, very hard for a candidate to have consecutive terms. I don't know how frequent this has been historically, but I think it's just going to get harder and harder because I just feel like it's an overall attention span thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like we try someone new and if it doesn't go well, we're just like, we want the next thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So picking a candidate that's associated with the existing administration, you're just like screwed from the beginning.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like it's kind of, and like, she's stuck being like, I can't be like everything. I disagree with everything.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And like you were there. So you're just, you're just kind of saying like, I failed to be impactful. Oh yeah. That's tough. Everyone wants something new. Everyone wants like a brand new,
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. So I think given those things, you just got to bring something fresh every single time. And I hope the next time that they put someone up,
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. I guess what I'm saying that like picking the candidate is one thing, but just overall, just the attitude does not seem to be like, we're going to do whatever it takes to win. Like we're going to figure out the strategy we're going to do. We're going to, we're going to focus on what people want to hear. We're going to like say those things.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
If that changes, we're going to pivot and say the other things that people want to hear. Like it's, it's an election. It's not like, You got to do what you need to do to win the election. So then you can do the things you need to do when you're in power. And that's just the way it is. Like it's maybe doesn't fit some ideal, but it's just the way it is. The game will never be the same.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, you're right.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You know what it feels like? You know how it feels like when it comes to sports, let's say like sprinting. You know, someone should just be able to like... be born a certain way and then like just train generally. And then they could just be the best printer ever. But the game has gotten advanced even for something as basic as run really fast. It's like, there's a whole perfect nutrition approach.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
There's a whole like exact type of training you need to do. And each thing gives you like a 0.1 percentage advantage. And there's just so many of those things where if you're not playing the game, you like really just, the game has just changed. I feel that way about, uh,
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They look like boats. Yeah. They literally look like a hole. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Yeah. Just less weakness, more strength.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. I mean, Bush in between.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
But the Clinton win was very similar to the... the situation right now, but in reverse, the Republicans were messing up in a way. And then the Democrats are like, here is a Southern governor from Arkansas.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Who's young also. Like he was pretty, he was definitely not near the ages that we're listening. We're seeing now. What is that about? I don't understand the politics thing. Yeah. 90 year old. The other thought I had is like, we might just be in like a really weird time. Like, there's a lot of people from a generation we cannot connect to at all still alive.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And then you like shift forward 10 or 20 years. And that'll be different. Everyone kind of looks the same at that point. There's like not really... These people that are like, they live in a different world, effectively. Just say it. Boomers. They're boomers. Yeah, they're boomers. That we don't have any boomers. Have I ever said the word boomer before?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. Like by the time, like in 10 or 20 years, the oldest people around will maybe be our parents. And yeah, like if that, right. And it's at that point, it's like everyone, most people on earth are going to be from this like internet world. Uh, and we're definitely not, we definitely don't all agree, but like there's at least there's not like these, like there's that commonality. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like I think generally people from those world, like understand like the modern world where like a lot of what you read is not true and you're skeptical of like everything. Like it's, it's a, that's a great point.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like, you know, the world changed a lot in a certain time period, and you're either on one side or the other side of it. Mm-hmm.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I got a comment on the video already that was like, I love that Miami's humid because it makes your head look so shiny.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't, yeah, I don't get, I don't get dry.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Oh, I remember that. That lip, the lip.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like, Just my whole life. How can I say this? I don't have chap lips.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
The moment you say that, it makes me really excited to hear what you're about to say.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, actually, people with darker skin tend to have drier skin. Really? Okay. In my experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. I think that's related to the climate. When I was in colder climates, my super dry skin, I still don't take care of my skin that well, but it's way less dry than it used to be.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's like identical to Miami. Really? Tropical. Well, that's nice.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm in my, I'm in my, the correct environment. Did you ever play Zoo Tycoon?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. You like build the cages? It's like Rollercoaster Tycoon, but you make a zoo. Yes. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. And you have to like, you have to like put like the right terrain and environment so the animals would be happy. Oh yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It feels that way. I'm like in the correct habitat, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, I think as I was imagining me being in Florida, it's like, yeah, I got dropped here, but like, you know, they recreated the right environment for me.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Mr. Tycoon himself.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. It was the last name.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You have somebody? Can I tell you something I struggle with a little bit? Yes. I think that I... This isn't like enough of a problem to say like we should or should not do anything.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I think I struggle. No. Okay. I struggle with those types of guests.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like people that are accomplished and like further... They're past the point where they have accomplished something and now they're just established. Like DHH? Just call them out. Because... It has nothing to do with the person. It's a me thing. I...
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
feel like i am way too on the same track or attempting to be on the same track as these people so my entire mindset around everything when i think about these people is like seeing me be their peer one day because i like get to maybe not the same level accomplishment but get to like any amount of accomplishment on the same track and when i when i like when we have them as guests like i don't i don't feel good in this like interviewer
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yes, exactly.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
But this thing where if you're just trying to be... if you're, if you're not on the same track with these people and you're just trying to like do content and do that stuff, like it makes, it makes total sense. But for me afterward, I always had this like weird feeling of like, I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It's hard for me to articulate, but it's, uh, it just in conflict with like my drive and my motivation and everything. I suddenly feel like I'm being pushed into this other. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I think the other thing that's challenging is when you're in this interviewer position to do that, well, you have to be really neutral and let the person like really be able to get deeply into the way they think. But because I want to be more of a peer, I don't want to do that. I want to like be in conflict in certain areas and like have a different perspective on it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And the reality is it's, you can't really do that. Like that just doesn't really with someone like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It just doesn't really, really exist.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, we should do it. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, we should do it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Has that changed too?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You were peeing because you were so nervous. I was so nervous. You were bottling up all your emotions and the emotions were pushing out the urine.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I mean... You had some kind of repressed stuff, so you were just drinking the water as a way to self-regulate.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
So before we get off, I want to tell you one theory. So Liz has all these funny theories that are like... They're funny because they seem kind of ridiculous, but they're not totally implausible. She has a whole set of them. But there's one that maybe you'll find helpful. Oh, I love it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Exactly. She thinks that we all underplay the role of smell in all parts of our lives, especially relationships. And she thinks that, uh, when you meet someone new, all the excitement is because you have this new smell and then eventually you get very used to their smell. And that, uh, correlates with, you know, the relationship going stale.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And I, I, it could be true. And there just needs to be compatibility with smells. And she's like, that's how animals work. And we're an animal. Like, why do we think we're, it's true. We're, we're beyond this. Um, And she has a bunch of other observations around this that I can't remember right now, but to support it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Probably everything, but I think she's mostly talking about romantic ones. Huh. So, yeah, maybe you guys should spend time in places that don't have each other's smells and then get back together.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
That reminds me... Okay, there is some kind of perfume that I will smell off someone. Like, maybe, like... Once every two weeks, like walk by someone or whatever and I'll smell it. It is such a shocking smell to me because it smells so strongly of like cleaning alcohol or something. And it reminds me of like COVID for some reason.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
It reminds me of like disinfecting something, like all the disinfectant that was just like in the air everywhere.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
and like it like i had such like a repulsive reaction to it and for the longest time i didn't even know it was perfume i literally thought like oh someone just like came from the hospital without hand sanitizer or whatever or like yeah something like that and it's it's like this guttural reaction i have and then i realized the other day like no that they're smelling like that on purpose like they're trying to trying to smell like that
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I like my brain, like Kyle understood how it could be a perfume for like a second. And I was like, Oh my God. But for me, it just smells like horrible. It reminds me of COVID. Yeah. This is the worst design perfume ever.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm not trying to shame. I'm sure I had the same high school boy thing where I tried it for a bit. But I'm just not good with habits like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Are they embarrassing anymore? Probably.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
But every generation needs something to look back on and be embarrassed by because it's like a bonding thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I just had the fucking thing in the front.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, and my hair was super curly, so it was really hard for me to get it like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Natural. Yeah, I could have had it. I could have had it naturally. Yeah, I know. Born at the wrong time. Now I don't even have any hair, so I can't even do it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Did I tell you my plans for my hair? No. implants okay so no no okay so i did so i found out that one of the best hair transplant places in the world is like 10 minutes away of course it is of course it's in miami yeah uh-huh yeah of course so i was like okay i'll just go get a consultation see what yeah what's what And here's why I know it's a really good place. I went in, had my conversation.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They talked me through a bunch of... They asked me a lot of really interesting questions. They had a lot of suggestions. And they told me not to do one. Oh, why? That's how you know they're good because they're not trying to just get the money out of you. Yeah. So basically, here's the thing I did not understand. So my thought process was... I might as well get it.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
If I don't like it, I like the way I like my shaved head. I can just go back to it. Yeah. But it turns out you can't go back to your shaved head if you get a hair transplant. Cause where they, they take the hair from the back of your head and it leaves these like little dots there. So you have to commit to like your new full time, the new look forever. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And if you don't like it, you can't, you can't shave. So yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, so he literally looked at me and he just judged me aesthetically.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah. So he was like, I think I would make you look worse if I did what we did. And he said I would have to have two treatments, not just one. And so it would take like a year and he just, he was just like looking at everything. It was just like, I noticed he's like, yeah, he had very low confidence that it would make me look better.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
And that's, what's funny about doctors in this field, whether it's plastic surgery or hair transplants, they need a sense of aesthetics to be like, I can make this person look better.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
or i can't make this person look better and this is what looks good this is what looks bad and they like study that and get it get a good taste for it so now i know that a hair transplant is technically never going to be an option for me unless they figure out hair cloning which is like they take a little bit of your hair and they make it into more um which is like you know that's like the technology trying to figure out yeah um so i'm like okay if i can't do that i'm gonna go the other extreme
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm going to get laser hair removal on my head.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Yeah, so here's the next funny bit. So I'm looking into this. I'm like, is this a thing? Whoa, this is really great. Someone on YouTube just makes a bunch of content. She's someone that removes, that does this, and she makes a bunch of content about it. And I learned so much. Looked her up 20 minutes away from my house.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
the best hair removal place the best hair addition place anything aesthetic you want to do to yourself you know miami's got you covered it's like what we do um so i think it's going to be a little painful and it's like make sure you don't stay in the sun a little bit after you do it so it's a little tricky but yeah yeah but like just never had like if i could always look like this this is like i shaved yesterday yeah um
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
That would be fantastic. And I don't have to worry about my hair ever again just to my beard.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
like kill the hair follicles but like then the hair would slowly start falling out and you just have all these missing patches that'd be awful i don't understand why wigs aren't more popular yeah like they solve the problem perfectly like you look you can look like whatever you want that's a good point why isn't that more popular i could just wear one even like it could be the way i style my hair and then i don't have to style my hair i just have a wig on save me a lot of time so right now you're wearing a hat because yeah instead of wearing a hat you just throw on a wig you know
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I never thought of that. Try one on.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
No, you can convert, but I have too many Palestinian friends, so I don't know if I could actually do that. Also, our coffee supplier is Palestinian.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I was mostly kidding. I do wonder what I look like with a yarmulke. I see why you're saying that, because it looks like it would just perfectly fit right there.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Well, I was going to say something that was maybe the most offensive of everything you just said.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I'm going to say it. It's just a theory. It's not real. It's just a funny observation. When people go bald, they get that circle right here. Exactly where the yarmulke goes.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
That is quite convenient.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I was prepared for this to be like a really long thing that we talked about. And then you just, I think halfway through, you're like, you know what? We can just make this really quick.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
what they call it the solar panel they call it something like that that's what they like when you have a bald spot right there they call it the solar they call that they call it something oh the horseshoe or something i don't know but uh i feel like we've offended so many groups of people on this episode bald people i mean that's good as long as we offend everyone okay
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Okay. It doesn't seem targeted.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You voted for Trump, you're an idiot. You voted for Kamala, you're an idiot. Didn't vote, you're an idiot. Yeah. How could you not vote, you loser?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
They should just listen to episodes of our podcast while we record this.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Sometimes instead of watching, we'll just spend an hour browsing, like intentionally. Like sometimes I'm like, I'm feeling browsy. Yeah, browsy. And we'll just, we'll just like go through each thing and look at it and just make funny comments and we'll spend an hour. Yeah. And then we'll go to sleep.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I, like, vaguely, like... I don't know what speaker you're coming out of, but it was really distant.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Acknowledged. I mean, you don't have to talk about that, but I will say people love hearing that shit. Oh, really?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Well, I'm saying I think oftentimes you feel like I'm talking about me a lot and this is like so unrelatable. This is just something like so specific to me, but like, let's be honest. There's a reason that the most watched TV is in the reality TV category. Good point. People in their core love hearing about reality.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
stuff yeah that is personal in people's lives so you don't have to talk about any of it like i think if i were you even how much you just talked about i think i would i would struggle to i do think it's a right call i think what you said makes sense um because like yeah it would be weird to get on here and pretend like everything's normal yeah yeah this has kind of been something we've been talking about for the past week uh but yeah um my only thing is i mean i said this to you over and over uh
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I feel like, and you've heard this from me enough times, but I'm just saying this for our audience. You are someone that really looks to blame yourself a lot, even in really small cases. And I think when there's complicated situations where It's something you did, but it's very complicated because this is all reflexive thing where it was because something else and that was because something else.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I think you your natural tendency tends to be to like solely reduce it to like the one action that you did when it's a lot more complex. So anyway, even as a way you describe the situation, I hear people listening. It sounds like the equivalent of. everything was great and I cheated on my wife, you know, it's like, it's, it's like not, it's been a lot of complicated situation.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like people can imagine. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
You're about to start like an emo band. Yeah. I think that makes sense. You guys want to go for like a reset. Let's try creating something new. Yeah. Um, are you guys going to try doing something really drastic just to get like superficially drastic just to get out of, you know, certain habits and stuff. Have you considered that?
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Like, I mean, kind of. Yeah. Cause it's like, it's just like with any habit. It's if you're in like the same type of environment, even though the habit is not related to the environment, it's like, Easy to fall back into it? Yeah. That's kind of how our brains work.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
I don't know. And nobody knows what's going on. It's funny because there were a few posts today about this podcast. And someone was like... Oh, really? Someone was like, it's so annoying when they skip a week. And I was like, we're about to skip another week.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
Let me just say one thing about that. The thing you just did. It's funny because it's this weird thing where you were concerned that you did the wrong thing and you upset the other person. And it seems like that is a situation that's bad for you and good for the other person because you're being really careful and the other person gets the benefit.
How About Tomorrow?
Offending Everyone by Sharing Tough Moments, The Video, and Politics
But in reality, no one actually wants to be in that position where someone needs to check in with them about everything. I think I've noticed with situations where it feels like the power dynamic is off, everyone imagines the person getting the upside is actually really happy, but nobody's actually happy.
How About Tomorrow?
Rita Kozlov on Building In Public, Cloudflare's Birthday Week, and How Long Software Actually Takes
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Wow, that's an accomplishment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I do want to hear that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Guess and check.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, the dry consider harmful, maybe that's a clickbaity. Yeah, a little clickbaity. And, you know, I don't think it's actually that harmful. I think the way that it's been dogmatically used is sometimes a little dangerous. But it's just more of a point about how as programmers, we have a bias for abstraction.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
So understanding that we have that bias and trying to keep it in check, especially when it comes to duplication versus encapsulation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
i just think that it's a path that i've gone down too many times of carving out microservices or creating service boundaries where there really shouldn't be or prematurely optimizing when requirements aren't really finalized and you know the requirements are are never finalized and you know just the wrong abstraction at a low level can really cause a lot of issues in terms of refactoring and and just added work down the line
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I don't really know how to get around it. It's just, you know, I keep on falling prey to it over and over again. But maybe that's just kind of the name of the game.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think the distinction that you made that the knowledge shouldn't be duplicated and is not so much about the code. I think that's a really good lesson for me. I try to understand the bias I have for abstraction and, you know, correct against it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
So if that means erring on the side of duplication, then that seems to be kind of the most helpful for me, especially on smaller projects when, you know, it's either just me and a few other devs or just me. Duplication, I think, is fine because the knowledge tax is maybe not as high.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
But on large teams, I think maybe go the extra mile and make sure that you're not repeating yourself because the cost of repeating yourself in that context is maybe much higher.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think a doc string can mean a few different things in different languages. I think for something like Java, you know, maybe it's a little bit more defined, but basically just a comment that describes what the function is actually doing. And maybe that feeds into some sort of language server or automated documentation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And, you know, I wrote this more as kind of like, you know, it should be maybe a you know, yellow flag, maybe not so much a red flag in terms of, you know, when you see this happening. I think that I linked to the Linux kernel documentation, and I think they describe it very well. And they say, you should never really try to explain how your code works in a comment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
It's much better to write the code so that the working is obvious. And you want your comments to tell what your code does, not necessarily how. And I think that's kind of the right way to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
When you're really trying to explain exactly how your code works, then maybe you should refactor it, and maybe that's a sign that other people are really going to have a tough time understanding what's going on, even with a comment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
what it does versus how it does it how often are you personally commenting in your code is it frequent a lot yeah i would say in terms of inline comments inside the function i would say rarely you know unless you're doing something you know really clever where it's not that obvious and you know you can't get any sort of context clues from variable names or control structure
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I think it's pretty rare to see that. I mean, it also depends what kind of program you're writing, right? If you're writing a really low level library, you know, I think it does make sense to be overly verbose.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
But, you know, if you're writing some sort of business logic, I think it maybe makes a little bit more sense to, you know, keep it at the function level or, you know, put it in maybe a different place.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, definitely personal experience here. When I was working on Minikube, a lot of the complexity is around, you know, it's spinning up a single-node Kubernetes distribution
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
on your laptop so not only are you one layer deep with containers you're also another layer deep with the fact that it has to run in a virtual machine on your laptop and so that's windows that's mac os we optionally spin up a vm on linux But I found myself working with some pretty undocumented virtualization libraries on Mac OS.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And, you know, I was starting to think maybe this is not the most maintainable way forward. And so I think that's one piece of personal experience where when it was ugly, it was maybe not the right way to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, this is one that I've found super helpful just because the code can never lie. And the documentation could be out of date. The blog post you're reading could be out of date. The Stack Overflow answer could be out of date. But if you're looking at the right commit, then the code necessarily can't be out of date. I do think that it's maybe a little bit language dependent.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I write a lot of Go. So, you know, there's Go docs, there's the code organization in Go is maybe a little easier to grok than something like JavaScript, where APIs can kind of be all over the place. And you're using libraries that might be nested 10 libraries deep. But for the most part, I've found that just looking at the code is the right way to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yes. Your own other people's? For me, I think it makes the most sense to look at the source code when you're taking a dependency on a library. I think that's the most obvious one for me. Just because you're not accessing an API on HTTP. You're not accessing an RPC. You're actually taking a dependency on some code.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And sure, there might be a documented way that these functions are public and these are the ones you can use. But for the most part, I think once you're at the code level, you should stay at the code level.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
if you're at the binary level if you're at the cli level yeah i think it makes a lot of sense to look up how do i you know cut this clip uh to 30 seconds uh you know that makes sense right right you're not going to look at the you might not even look at the man pages for uh for fm that mpeg on that no i'll just google that immediately and end up on stack overflow yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think that, you know, maybe the Go standard library is a little strong for most people. Maybe it's not at maybe the right level of readability for most projects, depending on what you're doing. But I think, you know, just as a general rule, find the best examples of code and emulate those instead of, you know, I mean, there's, I look at a lot of the code that I've published is open source.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Just because it is, you know, it's kind of half complete. Sometimes it's maybe not using best practices, you know, I'm doing workarounds. And when someone else builds on that foundation in a similar way, you know, I think that doesn't work out too well. So even though there's a lot of terrible code and Kubernetes, and you know, I wrote a lot of it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
there's a lot of great examples of what an API should look like, API versioning, API machinery. And I think those are the examples that you should be looking at, depending on what you're building.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think what I was trying to say there was that
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
all code is terrible to some degree so even if you if you look at a library and say you know oh maybe i could do this better you know sometimes it still makes a lot of sense to take a dependency on that library and use it just because it's been maybe more battle tested it's maybe a time thing in terms of like you know you maybe you could you could write something as good you haven't really tried but is that kind of the the core value that you're trying to drive in in your application
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
or something like that. So I think maybe just don't be afraid to take dependencies. I mean, know what you're getting into to some degree. A lot of the other rules are around not tangling your dependency tree, not taking dependencies on super tiny libraries. But for the most part, I think you have to use other people's code because that's the only way to continue building exciting things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I think a lot of it is context dependent on what you're building. For instance, when I was writing lower level kind of library code, in that sense, I think you want to take as few dependencies as possible just because it can really complicate some of your downstream consumers if they need a dependency on, let's say, like LeftPad or something like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
But if you're, you know, if you're writing more kind of higher level application code, you know, I think you got to ask yourself, what goal, what are you trying to achieve here? You know, if you're working on a startup, I think it makes sense to outsource as much of the non-core value proposition of your application as possible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Sure, you can write your own authentication library, but just look at how many amazing startups have been built on Ruby on Rails, GitHub, Shopify, GitLab, just to show there's a ton of others. But sometimes it makes sense to just use other people's code in that case.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I think it goes back to your earlier point about the cycle of bundling and unbundling as these libraries just grow to accomplish all use cases. As your API needs are much smaller, maybe it makes sense to break out and enroll your own to actually reduce that API surface. And it ends up being actually a more stable and maintainable piece of code.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Maybe a little harsh. I only say it because I was there. I'm still there in a lot of regards.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, so it's basically just like an actual quantitative measure of how many, I guess, independent paths exist in your source code. So think of like control structures. So like if-else statements, how many nested if-else statements are there? How many nested for loops are there? It's something that a lot of static code analyzer tools can tell you. It's not always...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
maybe apples to apples in terms of, oh, this project has a super high cyclomatic complexity, and that means it's a bad project. I think you really need to look at it at a relative term, but it's something good to track with your project. And I know there's a bunch of tools for Go that do this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
just to know if you're introducing some kind of really gnarly control flow in terms of super nested if statements, super nested for loops, et cetera, because the cyclomatic complexity, while it is a kind of a relatively good or bad, it does correspond to the number of test cases you need to cover your code, if you think about it that way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
It pains you to delete the code that you so put so much hard work into writing. I mean, the best code is no code to quote Kelsey Hightower and his no code repo, which contains absolutely no code, but also no bugs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Zero dependencies, easy to deploy, free to deploy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
It's something that's really hard to do, but it's really satisfying when you do it. One kind of example that comes to mind is in the early days of Minikube, we were actually vendoring the entire Kubernetes distribution into the Minikube binary. That meant the kubelet was in there. All of the different components were in there. And maintaining that was a complete nightmare.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Just in terms of we weren't depending on external APIs. We were depending on actual internal APIs that had no sort of guarantee whatsoever. And so once we were able to move over to a different solution, I mean, I probably deleted maybe like 4 million lines of code in one PR. Wow. It was great because our unit test coverage went way up. The tool became much more reliable.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And, you know, we didn't have to spend nearly as much time maintaining all these different patches and in different pieces of code.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
That's true. But I think, you know, even, you know, deleting a package dependency in my mind still counts as deleting a ton of code. I think you can delete. Well, I don't mean to downplay what you did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Exactly. Yeah. It's much easier to delete someone else's code than to delete your own code. Right. But I think, yeah, deleting your own code is definitely much more important.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Well, I mean, you know, just when I think about 10,000 hours, I mean, it's a long time. You know, I think about how long I've been doing this and I've been programming for probably 15 years now. And this is a lot of time to do anything. So
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. I found it very, very difficult to, to delete code, especially when the code's been there a while. It's been battle tested. It represents a lot of toil, you know, maybe it's not that 40 line function. Maybe it's that, you know, 10 line function that you thought was really clever. And, you know, it spent hours figuring out the algorithm too. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
just to figure out that, you know, maybe it should be replaced with something else or something much simpler. Maybe it should be replaced with the 40 line function.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Exactly. Exactly. So that's tough, but it's just so necessary.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I've had tons of failures along the way, learned a ton of things, and I've been trying to blog more and write down these ideas so that I don't keep on making the same mistakes over and over again. So it's a lot for me as well.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. And something that I think about a lot with the monorepo versus microservices debate, not to even get into that, but It's really hard to know where these API boundaries are going to exist, especially early on when you're first coding your app. And I think as programmers, again, I think we want to split everything up. Every kind of the user service has its own file.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
The other service has its own file. But I think a lot of times we maybe prematurely code split, and that causes a lot of issues just down the line in terms of versioning things and Releasing things that actually need to be versioned together. And I think if you find yourself in that situation, maybe kind of roll it back up in some regard.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Maybe it's not microservices versus monorepos, but maybe it's just something as putting things in the same package or putting things in the same file.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I think cyclic dependencies as well. I think it could put you in, in let's say like a go package or something like that. If you over code split, but you're actually not respecting the underlying dependencies of how the code is actually flowing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
then you can get yourself in kind of a bad spot where package A depends on package B or maybe a diamond dependency problem where package A depends on B and C, but then B and C also depend on D. And I mean, you just get yourself into all sorts of package hell depending on what level you're working at. So I think it has kind of real ramifications for oversplitting or
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, unfortunately, that's why I called it reflections on programming, not maybe lessons.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, I think the only lesson is that Definitely. At least personally, I have a bias for naming variables as short as possible. And that is probably one of the most unhelpful things you can do to your teammates and, and to your feature self.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Exactly. Like single letter, sometimes two or three letters. And honestly, that's, that's not super helpful. At least I found you're saving a few spaces, but you're not really, it's like the, the old adage is like, uh, debugged for six hours and, you know, I could have saved myself, you know, 10 minutes of reading the man page or something like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
No, I do the math and, you know, I spent a lot of time in open source as well. So it's like, it's not even a nine to five, it's like a six to 12 or, you know, whatever. I mean, it's an all day thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe there's a, there's a little confusion because, uh, error is the interface that it implements. So, you know, maybe there's a little ambiguity there, even though it is case sensitive, I think, but yeah, I totally agree. I think. when there's convention and you use convention, you know, stick to that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
If you were to say E instead of ERR, maybe that's a little wrong, you know, because you're not sticking to convention and you're shortening it a little bit too much.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. So, you know, just been programming a bunch, programmed a bunch in school. after college worked in New York for a bit as a programmer, came out to the West coast here to work at Google and worked on open source. I worked on Kubernetes and kind of specifically a bunch of sub projects in Kubernetes. So was a maintainer of Minikube, kind of the local development environment for Kubernetes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think of it as almost like kind of continuous learning. And, you know, we can learn so much from these different kind of sub communities, especially as what it means to be a software developer means just so much. Now, you could be a front end developer, you could be a back end developer, you could be a data analyst, data engineer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I mean, there's just so much that goes into actually writing code. I think tangible examples are backend engineers can learn a lot about UI and UX from frontend engineers, especially what it means to make a user-friendly CLI or user-friendly error messages. I think sometimes backend engineers over-index on complexity and maybe not thinking of the user. In a lot of cases, it's another developer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
It's one of those things where there's just so much we can learn by looking at these different sub-communities. So it's something that I try to keep an open mind to.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I think your example from Dan is amazing. I think it's just like ideas like that that can kind of pop up in a lot of different places and you can look at it and say, oh my God, this would be amazing for the project or the part of the stack that I'm working on. And, you know, I just think there's so much cross-pollination that can still happen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
scaffold which is kind of a kubernetes tool to help you build and deploy your apps and then kubeflow which is a machine learning kind of toolkit on top of kubernetes as well in addition to that like i've just been kind of hacking on all sorts of open source projects i wrote this configuration language virgo which is kind of for it's you can think of it as like if yaml was for
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And it's just such low-hanging fruit in terms of how we can push all this technology forward.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
kind of graph-based configuration instead of more hierarchical. And then, you know, built a computer vision bot for RuneScape, which was just a game that I used to play as a kid. Nice. A ton. And, you know, learned a lot about programming through that just because, you know, I was always too lazy to mine the rocks or click the buttons all day. And just like tons of projects like that. Awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
I mean, thanks for having me. I had such a blast and I've been such a longtime listener. So it's fun to be on the podcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, you've probably never heard of it because I, you know, I try to come up with it myself. I try to coin the term. So, you know, it's a new thing. But it's me trying to describe a pattern that I've seen in kind of software configuration.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Where configuration seems to evolve through specific increasing levels of flexibility and complexity before returning to either hard-coded values or bash. So you go from like hard-coded values, which are the easiest, the simplest configuration, but provide very little flexibility.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And as the program surface starts to increase and with that configuration, you know, you start to incorporate environment variables. flags and eventually you want to start to check that into version control. You turn it into a configuration file, maybe YAML, JSON, something like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Then as you turn on this heptagon of configuration, and I only called it heptagon just because a lot of the ideas came from Kubernetes and Kubernetes logo has got the seven points and just worked out well. But as you're going from configuration files, You start to need a little bit more extensibility in terms of
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Templating, and I think templating is something that we're all unfortunately accustomed to a little bit too much. So that's kind of one wheel on the configuration, Heptagonic configuration. And then from templating, you go to kind of a DSL, a domain-specific language, and that allows you to have a little more type safety and a little more domain-specific reusable modules.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And I'm sure some of us have used Puppet in the DevOps world, or there's tons of other DSLs out there. But eventually these DSLs become a little too inflexible. Maybe the requirements change, the domain changes, and then we go back to Bash. So that's kind of like this never-ending cycle of configuration that I've seen. And, you know, I saw this a lot in Kubernetes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
There was a lot of Bash in Kubernetes and a lot of configuration. Maybe we skip the DSL part and, you know, maybe that's more of kind of a configuration as code or something like Pulumi. But, you know, maybe we'll go back to hard-coded values at some point.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
That's a really good question. I don't know if it's either. I think it's just necessary complexity. And I think it's important to know maybe where you are on the spectrum. Because I do think that you need to, you can't necessarily jump from something like hard-coded variables or environmental variables to going to a DSL. I've never really seen that work out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
So I think you do need to increase the complexity, but in a way that that complexity can be absorbed by the projects or the developers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great point. And I think we're seeing that play out in the data stack a bit with a lot of old ideas around tooling around data warehouses. And now that we have cloud data warehouses, you have Snowflake, BigQuery, Redshift, et cetera. We're bringing back a lot of those old ideas, things like OLAP cubes there, you know, there's analogs to that now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Lessons from 10k hours of programming (Remastered) (Interview)
And just, it seems kind of like more of the same, but it's really different once you start to look under the surface.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Mm-hmm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
The claw.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It's kind of like a real-time forum in a way. You know, like when I'm on chat.zulub.org, it's got the feels of a forum and the feels of a real-time chat kind of combined into one, which is kind of nice because there's, you know, in forums, you often are threaded conversations. They're obviously topic-based, but they're not real-time generally, to my knowledge. I mean, I haven't been on a forum...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Why add tracing to the platform? Why tracing and why now?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
and like active i suppose since the where's days of my life but you know i'm on forums here and there i think there's some obvious ones out there but it's not active in them i'm very active in slacks multiple slacks not just our own and really no discords at all for me so my only really experience is like older hip chat days obviously campfire And then obviously now modern application.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
A little bit, you know, a little bit. Honestly, I just, it was like, I wasn't quite hacker then as much as I am now. So I didn't quite get into IRC. I tried. I was, but just not like steeped. Sure. Like real-time chat is. But this is kind of cool because it's kind of like a forum and a real-time chat all built into one. And it doesn't feel overwhelming.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Like you see this stream of content coming past you. I think... There's some psychological things that happen in real-time chat applications these days that you feel like you have to keep up or there's just a stream of data. It doesn't feel burdening thus far.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
How do I get back there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, I've gotten a couple of those emails and they are scary to see. I was actually a little nervous because I was trying to quickly as this topic came up in this conversation to find that message because I do recall them saying recently to us that there's some updates required by September or something like that. And like,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
final notices for x and i'm like like you jared i who cares in a way but then i'm like maybe i do care you know maybe i might care right now like they don't care until you do care right you're like oh no it was in the slack and then it's gone now and you're like yeah Yeah, I don't know. Do you know much about that, Alia?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Like what the current state of Slack's... I imagine you're probably leveraging it in some way, shape, or form. If you're not leveraging it, you're getting the inbound of it, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Yeah, I found the email that was scary. This was sent on June 24th. It says free workspace content older than one year will be deleted. And then I won't read it all, of course, but it says this policy will begin taking effect. Get this, Jared. August 26th. Ooh. It is as ago. The 28th. Yeah. So as of this recording, we're recording on August 28th. They're deleting our stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
But it does say workspaces will be notified prior to the policy impacting that workspace. So we do have time. They haven't rolled it out yet. And it says your workspace is on a free Slack plan because... Alia, we are a community. We've been sort of hamstrung, I suppose, by Slack. We've always been dumbfounded that they would never have changed their tune towards communities.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And we have several communities in our sidebar that I'm a part of, and I'm sure, Jared, you're a part of some that I'm not. But there's relationships in business. There's partners who are in their channels or vice versa. And it always seemed like, what's the line from Goodfellas, Jared? Maybe it was one of the Godfather movies. I don't know. Which one? It was basically Pay Me. Oh, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
You know what I'm getting at here. Yeah, yeah. It's a PG show here. That's how I've always felt about Slack. It's just not a great company. And I'm all for companies being ambitious and enterprise-focused and all that good stuff. I'm not at all against that. But I was always confused.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
by their seemingly inability to see the goldmine of community that had leveraged Slack in its free tier to not find a way to make them pay in some way that wasn't thousands and thousands. It only seemed to be optimized for the large enterprises only, not for the smaller communities at all.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I love it. Okay, so they mean it when they say code breaks. Fix it faster with Sentry. More than 100,000 growing teams use Sentry to find problems fast, and you can too. Learn more at Sentry.io. That's S-E-N-T-R-Y.io. And use our code CHANGELOG. Get $100 off the team plan. That's almost four months free for you to try out Sentry. Once again, Sentry.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Okay, friends, I'm here in the breaks with Annie Sexton over at Fly. Annie, you know we use Fly here at Change. We love Fly. It is such an awesome platform and we love building on it. But for those who don't know much about Fly, what's special about building on Fly?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
So we use Tigress here at ChangeLog. Are they built on top of Fly? Is this one of those examples of being able to build on Fly?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Very cool. Thanks, Annie. So, Fly has everything you need. Over 3 million applications, including ours here at ChangeLog, multiple applications, have launched on Fly. Boosted by global anti-cast load balancing, zero configuration private networking, hardware isolation, instant WireGuard VPN connections, push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. It's all there for you right now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Deploy your app in five minutes. Go to fly.io. Again, fly.io. And by our friends over at Paragon, useparagon.com. Check them out. Ship every SaaS integration your users need. With more than 100-plus pre-built connectors, you can add dozens of integrations to your app quickly and reliably. with their embedded iPaaS for developers. And I'm here with co-founder and CEO, Brandon Fu.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
So Brandon, talk to me about the friction developers feel with integrations, SSO, dealing with rate limits, retries, auth, all the things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Okay. Paragon is built for product management. It's built for engineering. It's built for everybody. Ship hundreds of native integrations into your SaaS application in days. Or build your own custom connector with any API. Learn more at useparagon.com slash changelog. Again, useparagon.com slash changelog. That's U-S-E-P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com slash changelog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What's up, friends? This is The Change Log. We feature the hackers, the leaders, and those taking on Goliath. a.k.a. Slack and Teams. Yes, we're joined by Ali Abbott, one of the fine folks behind Zolip.com, the open source, organized team chat for distributed teams of all sizes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It is hard to compete against free, especially when the Goliath is giving it away for free.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Yeah, it's unfortunate, especially you would think as a user, like you said, nobody got fired for buying IBM. I didn't make that up, but I don't disagree with it to some degree. Except for what if you're missing out on what is free and open source, but you can also pay for it. when the Zulip name isn't as polished as maybe Microsoft, obviously.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
You know, that's the hard part is that you kind of have to win them with showing up, you know, with the open sourceness of what you're doing, the way you've been in the trenches with the communities, the way you've sponsored things, not just simply the larger brand name and the The literal freeness that you can get with Teams.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Now I know that at certain points organizations have to pay for Teams, but it's pretty much free for the entrants. And then you pay once you're literally locked in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Through the tea leaves or something.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
That's one thing I really wish we had in our Slack, Jared, is that we have people come and they share things they should not, a.k.a. spam. Yes. And I would just like to be able to eventually boot them because... I delete the message and I look at them and I'm like, well, you're clearly not here for the reasons everyone else is here for. You violated the code of conduct intended for this place.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
There's no way for us in our current state to enforce these kind of things aside from just deleting messages. Sure, we could probably log into Slack and delete their user, but that doesn't stop them from coming back. I'm not sure if any platform can really do that to prevent somebody from recreating a new account or whatever.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
But I do wish we had some moderation tools where I'm sure even the community inside of our Slack would step up and say, you know what, I'll help you guys because it's 2 a.m. and you're sleeping and I'm not because I'm in a different country. And if I see a spam message, it doesn't have to sit there for eight hours until the morning or whatever time it is.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
When we look at Slack again, it's like, well, hey, this thing has been sitting there with people piling on or looking at it or clicking it. And we can't do that stuff. So I wouldn't mind having some moderation tools.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Yeah. Some sort of pattern match, I guess. Oh, yeah. Known. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't happen often. We get some spam here and there. And mostly, I get it. Go join a Slack or find a place to belong and share your messages. And you do that with enough numbers, you'll get people... I get it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It's a numbers game, but it doesn't make any sense to me because you're not really getting the long-term benefit you actually want for a brand. And so it's such a nasty thing, really. And like I said, it doesn't happen too often, but often enough where I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't mind some tooling. What would a migration look like?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
That's the, it's 90% of my anxiety. If we're hypothetically speaking about things. Yes, we are. Is I feel like I'm just, I've been like in this waiting pattern in my own brain. You know, I haven't taken any action. I've been like just thinking that maybe Slack would someday get it and somehow just recognize that there's so many communities that have, you know, built up their thing around them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And that many of us in even developer land or just let's just say tech land have, you
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
numerous logos slash icons in our Slack sidebar so we bounce from one workspace to another and I like that I don't want to be in a world where I can't where I have to like still I guess keep Slack or I just like the unification of it and as a user I don't want to have to go to the Slack app and then the Zulip app and then the whatever app I would just like a unification if it was possible I'm sure it is I think there are some out there but there's diminishing returns
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
My point is that I've been just anxious about what it would take to literally migrate if ever we actually had to because we got 7,000-ish people in our main channel. Not all of them are obviously present and active every day. I'm sure some of them come and go. Maybe some of them lurk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I have no idea because I don't really have any analytics to our usage in terms of just beyond messages I'm paying attention to. So, I just wonder if we moved to something else, how much would we lose? How hard would it be to get even our active people to stay involved?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I did find a repo, and I know that you may not be able to go deep on this if you can, it's okay, is on your Zulip org on GitHub. It's docker-zulip. So I assume this is official. It's container configurations, images, etc. for all of it. There's a Docker-composed file there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
So, you know, tread softly, but officially. 102 lines in this compose file. I mean, that's a lot of lines. So you've got SSL certificates set up for folks. You can set up a custom CA certificate if you want to. You can point to a different Git repo. So you can point to the official or you can have your own fork, which I think is pretty cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And you're just a dark compose up away from running Zulu locally.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, see now, that's a great question, obviously. But now you have to be your own uptime for your own chat apps. That's the high price of self-hosted. That is the high price of self-hosted. I would want to compare Zulip Cloud and other ways first, but I'm not against the idea of self-hosting. I just think it takes a lot of responsibility to do so. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I assume, how then, maybe you answered this already and I was reading docs or the doc compose file while you said it, and if I missed it, I'm sorry. No worries. But how does your iOS, Android app work with a self-hosted scenario? Do you point it at... Like a URL kind of thing? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
So self-hosting, yeah, I mean, you would have to have, even if it was like literally self-hosting in a closet or self-hosting on DigitalOcean, Render, those are two that are mentioned in your docs. We obviously prefer Fly, fly.io. Not paid to say that, but just definitely very passionate. So I guess we can self-host on fly, right, Jared? Like we wouldn't have to self-host anywhere.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I just thought it'd be cool to run out of your closet. It would be cool. Except for, I think, I don't know if the uptime would be as good. I mean, the ping, the latency, Gerhard may have opinions about it. That's for sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Self-contained Zulip, and I guess local area network only, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Very generous to open source it though. Yeah. Right. And all the history that's like kind of unheard of when you say, and then like be disconnected completely, like no back link or connection to it. Just like be free bird, go fly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Not very useful that way, but you could do it. Via the terminal. The terminal app even.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What's up, friends? I'm here with Kyle Carberry, CTO at Coder.com. So, Kyle, I've known Coder as the IDE in the cloud. And over time, you've iterated to become a fully open source cloud development environment, a CDE. How do you explain what Coder is and what it does?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Okay, so what are teams coming to you for? Who's coming to you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Let's laser focus in on the platform engineer. It is that team's job to provide the best infrastructure, the best platform for their given applications, for their teams. What are some signs or signals for platform engineers to think about when it might be time to consider a cloud development environment like Coder.com?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, it might be time to consider a cloud development environment. And open source is awesome, and Coder is fully open source. You can go to Coder.com, get a demo, or try it right now, or even start a 30-day trial of Coder Enterprise. Once again, Coder.com, that's C-O-D-E-R.com, Coder.com. Well, there's a terminal app. I haven't seen visuals of this yet. How cool is this terminal app?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
There you go. Okay. Terminal beta. Cool. It's very TUI-like, Jared. Obviously.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What I'm seeing on the side, though, if I can talk through it a little bit and see if you're following me, Jared, is that it seems like you've got the channels, of course, and it seems like those are topics beneath it, potentially. Obviously, it's not as full-featured as an actual web UI or an application UI. Do you find that people actually use this terminal app a lot?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Is it one of the primary client set that you have in your stats? What do you think the usage might be?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And we're going through all the things, open source, its origins, what makes it different, why it might be better, how you can self-host it, how you can use their cloud, how you can contribute, how you can be part of their community, all the things in this show. A massive thank you to our friends and our partners over at Fly.io. That is the home of changelog.com.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Has she answered your question, Tara? Yeah. Okay. What's stopping you from, or have you considered, raising funds? I know you had grants in the past, but I'm not sure... What your angle is, I mean, there's obviously this idea of commercial open source companies out there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
We're very anti rug pull, not cool here around these parts, which means don't change your license once you've gotten to critical mass because it's against your future business objectives. Hopefully I paraphrased that well enough for you, Jared. I think there's an opportunity. I'm just curious. Have you? Why haven't you? What's the status on that front?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What if that's not true?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
All of it. What if there are venture capitalists that align with open source, which is becoming a thing? What if there are venture capitalists that see your idea as the way and they want to fund companies that have prived by cold at hands aspects to open source? Would your tune change?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I think the reason why I come with those questions is less to challenge you by any means. It's like zero about challenging.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It's more like if Zulip is the best and it is open source and it is superior in so many ways, in so many models even, of how you can use the software, not just in your cloud or in the self-hosted version, the exporting, the non-fettered access to it to be able to move and all those things, if it's superior...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I would want to, if it were me, I would want to do all I could to ensure everyone could use it more. And the way you get there is generally the reason why people raise money is not because they literally just want money. It's because they can leverage that money as a resource to go faster to the roadmap. And we talked earlier about Flutter. We talked earlier about some different areas.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And maybe you're slow and steady, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. I just wonder if a little funding that was in alignment with your morals, values, etc., towards open source, the way you run your company... if that money didn't challenge those values, if things would change.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Because if you truly are better, and we've seen even in our own Slack, a person say infinitely better than X, you know, so we hear that ourselves even, if that's truth, then I would want to do all I could to get that truth to many people.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Just to add on to what you're saying here, Jared, I think probably without digging into the data, I will hypothesize that probably the biggest challenge first is awareness that you exist. And then obviously once they realize you exist, the opportunity for superior feature sets exists. Then I would say that the very next thing is like, okay, now what?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Which is our requests for information on hypothetically what it would take to move, what it would take to go from a Slack or a Discord. I feel like if you could do content
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
around that subject not just documentation like how to but like good stories of folks who've moved and their journey and to demystify the scares and concerns like my main scare is is that a proper adjective i don't know i'll allow it is that or i guess anxiety point is is will we lose the people that we have in our community will they will they bounce you know if you can showcase the what's on the other side of the of the wall rather than me assume
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
As somebody who is not happily but happily using Slack, given the things we've already said, still like Slack. It's still amazing. It's just they've got warts for people like us, communities like us. I feel like that's the content I would personally, I would look at the data, and I think that would be the hypothesis.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Get awareness, show off the amazing feature set that really captures 80% of who likes you most, and then show how easy it is to move. And almost make it like, you should be doing this. Like, it should happen today. We can help you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And if there's money to invest, in quotes, money to invest, could be time, could be people, could be people hours, is to guide and assist certain organizations on that path.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
If I had to divide my time up into fifths, I'd take two-fifths of that time and dedicate it to that kind of content, if not more. Because fourths is like whatever, you know, like 25%, 25%. I mean, that's pretty easy, like one-fourth. I feel like two-fifths sounds better to me. Two-fifths of my time would be focused on awareness and showing off the better world, the FOMO. You're missing out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
On freedom, control, access, enjoyment. Privacy. And then obviously your dev team and engineering teams can be focused on all the surface area, Flutter, that migration, finishing out those applications, polishing the peripherals.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
What is next for you, the listener? Are you going to go to Zulip.com? Got the dot com. It's a big deal. It is a dot com. It is a big deal. It's a five-letter dot com. Free, open source, cloud, or self-host, unfettered. Do it today.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
It's almost too easy, Adam. It's almost too easy. Yeah, I feel like we should try Cloud out first. And if we like how it feels... Take the next step.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
That's half the battle, right? Because sometimes that switching of the UI and everything, it can be jarring. The ideas and the features that may be there, but maybe it feels weird. I don't know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, very cool. Well, thank you for this time. Thank you for going through all the details with us. It was awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
In a world where open source is eating software faster than software is eating the world, there's Zulip, the open source chat that has the potential to unseat the giants, to at least unseat the giants based upon features that really matter to users. And the thing is, is that they have so much potential. What exactly is potential? Potential is kinetic energy stored waiting to be released.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And after this conversation, I'm so hopeful for the team at Zulip. But at the same time, I know it's kinetic stored energy potential not realized. Now, there are a lot of people who love Zulip and there are a lot of people who don't even use Zulip or even know about Zulip. But now you do. So what are you going to do?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Well, I say go to Zulup.com, check it out, try it out, self-host it, use their cloud, contribute, be a part of the community, all the things that open source provides. Now, I, for one, am very hopeful and very happy Zulup exists. But Microsoft, Slack, Salesforce, they're massive. And so they need us to step in, to use, to try, to contribute all the things. Well, make sure you check them out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Zulip.com. And all it was inspired by this conversation to create a brand new guide called Moving to Zulip. And that'll be linked up in the show notes for you. Okay. Sponsors for today. Big thanks to Century. Century.io. Use our code CHANGELOG to get three months, almost four months of the team plan for free. Again, Century.io. And the code is CHANGELOG. And also to our friends at Fly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
We love Fly. Fly.io. It is a platform where you can do pretty much anything. And Tigris is one example of that. Check them out at TigrisData.com. We're using it, and we love it. And to our friends at Paragon, UseParagon.com. All these SaaS integrations you need for your B2B SaaS. Again, useparagon.com. And to our friends over at Coder, coder.com. Cloud development uncompromised.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
They're the number one self-hosted cloud development environment out there. I checked it out. I think it's so awesome what Coder can do. Check them out, coder.com. And of course, the beat freak in residence, Break Master Cylinder. Bringing those beats every single week. Much love, BMC. Much love. Okay, so no bonus today, but I do want to mention, because, hey, why not?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
changelog.com slash plus plus. It's better. It is better. Today, it's not better because there's no bonus, but hey, other week's Other shows, bonuses galore for our plus plus subscribers. That is where you go to get the ad free version of our show. The way to directly support us to get closer to that cool change law metal, get bonus content. Not this week, but hey, you know, next week.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
And I know because we recorded next week's show today and we have a very lengthy, very awesome bonus content for you. You'll love it if you're a subscriber. Once again, changelog.com slash plus plus. Okay, that's it. This show's done. Thank you for tuning in and we will see you on Friday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly. We're one of them, and we love Fly, and you will love Fly too. Check them out at Fly.io. Okay, let's do it. Hey friends, I'm here with Dave Rosenthal, CTO of Sentry. So Dave, I know lots of developers know about Sentry, know about the platform, because hey, we use Sentry and we love Sentry. And I know tracing is one of the next big frontiers for Sentry.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I'm looking at the screenshot on your homepage, which I assume is up to date. Is it up to date?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Pretty accurate?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Okay, cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
Yeah, where would I go to do that real quick? Because I was trying to open that conversation, like get into the actual UI.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I just, I do like it. So I'm going to paint a verbal picture of this visual I'm looking at. So channels on the left, topics to the right of me. Here I am. I'm just stuck in the middle with us. Stuck in the middle, you know. Nice. Well played. Great song, by the way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I like when you click on a channel, you see these topics, and then if you click on show all topics, you obviously get into a channel view with all the topics in it that you can filter and scroll, and you can easily go back to channels. I'm not signed in, so I can't see how I start new ones, but it does seem pretty snappy in terms of just how easily you can map around.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Open source threaded team chat?! (Interview)
I just wonder if it's overhead on anybody's part to organize messages online. organized topics because you can. That's what I was trying to figure out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Have you heard about this? I saw him post on Macedon about someone using his voice, but I didn't read it. Okay. Is that what you're going to talk about? I'm going to reference it at least. I'm going to lightly talk about it. Let me see if I can pull up the information quick enough. Jeff Geerling, for those who don't know, is a home labber YouTube. What's his particular... He's a YouTuber.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
He's been on the pod.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I would call him a home labber. What's his... His channel's more about hardware and stuff, though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I mean, I know how it works technically. I don't know how it works in the way that you're talking about it. All I know is somebody's going to put out there and finish that song Nick Nisi started. That's right. In the Nick voice. Mm-hmm. Just the falsetto, the Prince falsetto.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That sounds like a corporate advertisement.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And that's cool. I prefer to just hand the guitar to the robot and say, will you play Kiss by Prince so I can sing this falsetto? Like that's when it's really here. It's like you go to a restaurant. And it's advertised, you know, maybe there's even a $5 cover at the door. Live music tonight. McNeesy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And you go to this restaurant and you sit down and you look up on stage and there's nobody on stage. Just a couple of laptops. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
cool laptops talking to each other and they're they're hardwired into different instruments and those they just start playing songs you know taking requests and then get down on one knee and somebody and sing right in their face i don't know it's gonna be weird it's getting weird i would watch that for sure yeah i would probably watch that too that's the problem is we're so easy we're like this is dangerous and crazy and it's like but i would totally participate
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
You know, aren't we just kind of along for the ride this whole way? That's the problem, right? How can we stop it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, I don't really believe anything he says.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
It's like Elon Musk and then we'll be self-driving by 18 months from now. Totally. And he's completely invested in that being true. Yes. And so highly motivated to say it's going to be true pretty soon. Yes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
You can't move around. You can't go down or sideways. It's gotta be up. You can't stagnate. You have to be more valuable, higher up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
There's other ways to find Zen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
There's many roads to Rome. He could do it in his spare time for free. He could brush his teeth a lot. Just take the thing off, brush his teeth, put it back on. You'd have the cleanest teeth in the world.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That's more like flossing, isn't it? I mean, TypeScript is always going the extra mile, is it not?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
You must like typing. Not types, but like literally.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Because you type a whole bunch more than I do. And we accomplish the same thing. Just with regular JavaScript over here. Correct?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Oh, I don't do that part.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah. Fix type errors. How am I going to know about them?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, wait till I get it on my hands and start showing you cool stuff it's doing for a few months.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That's all you're going to say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
We don't mess around. And we ate steak together at, where were we? That conference. That conf. You went to that conf in Wisconsin, didn't you, Nick?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I never understood the term eavesdropping because this is more like eaves picking stuff up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
It was Danny, right? Danny Thompson. We interviewed him on stage. Yes. And then that was that. That was that. So he gave it to you just because you're friends with us, basically?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, I feel like at this point, shipping that show is probably not going to happen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
So you're dropping stuff off the eave? Maybe that's why it's like they drop it and you pick it up. I don't know. It's a weird word. Eavesdropping.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Let's listen back to it and we'll see if we actually like it. Because sometimes we listen back and we're like, that was better than I thought. Other times we listen back and we're like, that was worse than I thought. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Oh, man, that was a great episode, actually. It came down to the final question, and nobody could get it. And I think the final answer was something hilarious like... It was. Thunderbird, I think. Thunderbird. Like, the final answer was Thunderbird. The male client, Thunderbird. Yeah, the male client. And, I mean, the crowd went crazy. I thought, this is an award-winning episode of Front End Feud.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Not J.S. Danger, Front End Feud. Which is our Family Feud style, not our Jeopardy style game. And then I went to the... Well, now we're going to start. Maybe we should stop here because we're going to start complaining. No, no, no.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
No, I went up to the guys afterwards and I'm like, the guys who are running the AV right there. Like, that was so awesome. Can't wait to turn it into an episode. He goes, oh, you wanted to record that? And I was like, you got to be kidding me. Yeah, like there was a big plan. We're podcasters. Always be recording. That's our whole thing. ABR. ABR, man.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
VIM is totally worth it though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, they had something last week, wasn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Spill the beans.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, it was through Firebase.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Agreed. I still use Brave as my better Chromium for now. Brave Browser is just what it is. It's basically rip out the Google parts.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
None of that stuff is on by default. There's a VPN button that I don't use. There's crypto things that I don't use. I do think the idea of the bat token was interesting, but you don't have to use any of that. And it's just like Chrome minus the Google bits. And honestly, I use it for Riverside and for development. And that's it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
So you have to use Chrome by dictate. He's nodded his head, by the way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And then he said yes. That was a dramatic pause for our listener, but not for us as we saw you nod your head. And he smiled while doing it, too. Affirmation. Is the browser company... VC-backed. Gosh, I don't know. What's that website that's like TechCrunch, but it's just for CrunchBase? CrunchBase. Is that where you would find that information?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Google's also correct. I Googled that. CrunchBase also seems to confirm it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Which means it's pretty reliable, right? Unless two are using the one source and they're just, which they probably are. Crunchbase is probably the source and Google and ChatGPT are probably scraping that. ChatGPT gives links to Reddit and TechCrunch. Okay, well Crunchbase and TechCrunch are like the same people, I think. Could be wrong about that. So that gives me pause in general with browsers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I'm going to stick with Safari until Lady Bird can be used as my daily driver, and I'll probably switch to Lady Bird as, well, even if it can be my development, and I'll swap Brave for Lady Bird and then eventually, hopefully, Safari for Lady Bird.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
But I think if I'm going to have a large corporate entity that either is VC-backed or publicly traded or whatever, I'm just going to stick with Apple because I feel like their incentives for now are pretty well aligned with mine as a customer of theirs. And, you know, the browser company, I appreciate that they're out there innovating and trying to do new stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
But for me personally, I just feel like there's so many pressures on a company like that when things aren't going hockey stick in the way they have to, that there's incentives to compromise my side of the equation for theirs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
So Nick had the eaves down. That was exactly what the reference is. I thought it was maybe the female rapper from the late 90s, Eve. Do a rap. Do a rap. I'm down. Well, when Eve would drop things, she was also eavesdropping. She was dropping. She would drop bars, though, not raindrops.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
There's a subscription model here? Is that what you're saying?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
You can't think of Eve? No. She's quite a bit more hardcore than Enya. And so far, she's an actual rapper, and Enya's more of a, what's her genre? See here, I thought you were talking about Eve from the Bible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm not seeing is like, where is the business model here? Yeah. And when you don't see one and you see $50 million plus raised and you see them going for it's free, free, free, free, I just think the long-term ramifications of all those things usually end poorly for the end user. And so that's why I'm skeptical. But I would love for them to have a pay plan right now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
And maybe they've talked about it and it's just not out there. They're going to do that with Macs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Oh, did you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Does she turn the lights off and light some incense and say?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, let me use this opportunity to mention a tool that I found called Enchanted. Enchanted is an iOS and macOS app for chatting with private, self-hosted language models such as Lama 2, 3.1 as well. Mistral by Kuna using Ollama. And so this is open source. I've been using it for a while. It's unified chat. Switch your model up in the corner.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I don't know it actually has a chat GPT option where you can just put in your OpenAI API key because it's all about the open source side of things. But That's a good one. Well written. I've been using it. I enjoy it. And so check that out unless you are ChatGPT for life because it is O-Lama based. It looks really good. And I think Lama 3 is good enough that...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I only use ChatGPT now on my phone because I don't have this on my phone. So I'll go to this and it answers, I would say, nine out of ten things sufficiently. The other time I'll use ChatGPT in the browser is when I want to use the Dolly features and generate images.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Oh. Mm-hmm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
But for just asking my computer questions, it's a pretty good option, which I think is probably similar to what you're thinking of with this breakout chat app for computers. Raycast. For sure. So that's a cool one.
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Permissive, I think.
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You just download it. What do you do to get access to it? You have to have a token. Is that right? No. So this is like an interface for Ollama. And Ollama is a open source project that will run these different LLMs that you have the models downloaded on your machine. And so if you look at the repo for Enchanted, it'll say things like, you must have Ollama running first.
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And so there's a little bit to do there. It doesn't actually embed or download the models for you. So Ollama is really cool as well. So you're running Ollama as like a home lab thing then?
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It's a single machine home lab. It's my work computer. It's my only computer. I'm running it here on my laptop. And so there's, I can't remember how I installed Ollama. Probably brew install Ollama. Brew install, yeah. And then I pick Mistral 3.1 latest. Or sorry, Llama 3.1 latest, not Mistral. in enchanted and llama is running. Oh, llama is running as a service on my laptop.
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When's the last time you karaoke, Nick?
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That starts when my laptop starts. And so enchanted talks to that backend.
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Tell him your favorite song, Nick.
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Jared, if you didn't know, I didn't know that.
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I was using it from the command line at the time.
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Just talking into my command line. I can't remember if I had a tool for that or if Olamar provides a command line UI. Oh, I think I found a TUI. Oh, yeah. I'm going to quote you. You mind? Oh, cool. Yeah, I like this.
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I know his favorite song. It's Prince. Don't, don't. Let him say it. Okay, go ahead, Nick.
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Yeah. If you go to the Enchanted settings, the first thing it asks you for is an Olamo server URI. So you can definitely run it on the network and connect to a beefier machine or something that you have right now. Now you're home labbing. Now you're self-hosting. You transcended the singular machine and you went straight on home lab. That's right. And you can probably post it.
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You know, you could probably have a fly server out there or digital ocean. Get it. You know, preach brother run EC2 instance and run it there. And then no EC2. I'm just kidding. I'm just hating a little bit.
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You have past success. I mean, look at the old DigitalOcean box that you set up.
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Yeah, man. Load up Ubuntu on a machine, get a VPS, load up Ubuntu, install some stuff on it, expose a port and an IP, and start connecting your stuff to that. That's it, huh? It's so easy, Nick could do it. Okay. He needs to.
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What have you hosted, Nick, historically?
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Running Apache or Nginx or what?
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That's funny. Did you know that I once set up my own little intrusion detection system on a WordPress install using Git and a shell script? I didn't want it to change. unless I change it, right? And so I had WordPress installed and I just initialized a Git repository on all the PHP files and then initial commit. And then I assumed that none of these files are going to change.
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And so I wrote a shell script that basically ran git status. And if it had any modified files, it would email me. Like, hey, there's a file here that's changed. That's awesome. And that was pretty eye-opening. Because WordPress sites get files changed arbitrarily or seemingly arbitrarily more often than you would want them to. You know, oh, there's a new file here or something.
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Of course, you have to ignore certain directories like caches and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it was like a little intrusion detection, like the dumbest one you could possibly do because I didn't know how to run IDSs and stuff. That's clever. It worked. Yeah.
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The problem with that and with every intrusion detection system is false positives where it's like it detects something and you're like, oh, that makes sense. And then you try to, and then it's like my only tool is get ignore. Whereas if you have smarter tools, you can obviously fingerprint much better and say like this part of a file makes sense to change or whatever, whatever.
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It was dumb, like literally a dumb solution, but good enough for what I needed at the time.
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Yeah. Oh, I'm stoked. We did. Yeah, we launched something on the 25th of September. And yeah, you can use System Initiative now by going to a website and signing up and three clicks and you're in. And then you can automate infrastructure. It's sick. It's the coolest thing in the universe. I'm so proud of it.
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Yeah. I mean, that's what I hope is true. Okay. Yeah. I think, look, here's what it is. Basically, we figured out that part of the reason that it's so hard for us to achieve the outcomes we're looking to achieve with the kind of DevOps and operational work that we do is because the tools we're using sort of help bring about those tough outcomes. It's a lot harder to like.
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write static code, have your friends review it. In System Initiative, what you do is you use this living architecture diagram to put together all the different relationships between the things that you use. And then you can program that architecture diagram to do all the stuff you need it to do.
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So it automatically understands how to do things like create resources and delete them or update their tags or do those things. But then you can also extend it with your own custom policy. And the whole thing happens in real time in multiplayer Let's say you're going to like build some infrastructure. You've got to go, you know, use an AWS account. You're going to launch a new service.
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So you've got to go set up all the different pieces, the VPCs and the EKS clusters and, you know, ECS and database services. And you've got to set up IAM rules. There's all this stuff you've got to do. With system initiative, what will happen is you'll sign up, you'll get this workspace, and then you'll have this list of all the different architecture assets that AWS provides.
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And what you'll do is throw those things into this big diagram in the center of the screen, which is basically this living architecture diagram. And then you'll connect them together, just like you would if you were drawing an architecture. And what it's doing when you do that is actually writing the code to describe how these things work. And it's running it as a simulation.
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So it's telling you in real time, this would work or this wouldn't. So you don't have to wait. There's no long feedback loops. We actually vet all of that infrastructure and all that architecture in advance. You can say, hey, this looks good. It's what I want to see in the real world.
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And you can apply that change set and it's keeping track of all the different things you have to do to actually go make that infrastructure real. And then it goes and does it. And then after it does, it keeps track of those things, too. So you can see both sides. You can see the real thing in the world.
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that is what you created and it's and it's attached to the model of what you thought you wanted and then you can use that to manage it over time and then when you have customizations or tweaks or things you need to build for yourself you can go write that directly into the system in real time in these same kind of change sets that you use to do the infrastructure and so that's what it's like to use system initiative it's it's the most powerful intuitive collaborative way to do this work that's ever existed
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Nick mentioned WordPress.
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Oh, shoot. Are we violating trademark if we do that? I think we might get a cease and desist, honestly. Let's just call it WP. Okay, WP. All right, so I was driving this engine. Let's just call it WP Engine. And I won't tell you what open source software I was running.
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Okay, so for those who don't know, there's a lot going on between some large players in the WordPress community, the largest probably two players, one being Matt Mullenweg, creator of WordPress and owner of Automatic, which is a company that capitalizes WordPress through hosting, and WP Engine, which is another company that capitalizes WordPress through hosting.
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both of which have contributed to the open source WordPress project, lovingly hosted at WordPress.org. But from what I can tell, not to an extent that Matt Mullenweg is happy with on WP Engine's behalf. So Matt started this project brouhaha by calling out WP Engine at WordCamp US 2024. Guys, hop in here and correct anything I'm saying that's wrong.
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Like I couldn't possibly embarrass myself more than I already have karaoke. So yeah, that's true. I'll just go on a podcast.
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I'm not hopping in because it's all correct so far. Great job. Keep going. I'm really just trying to summarize what I know. We are not WordPress community members. We are very much just watching. We know Matt. We've had him on the show once or twice, but we don't know him very well. I don't know anybody at WP Engine. Very much just reporting the news that we've read.
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So Matt called out them for two reasons, one of which is that they agreed to contribute more. They agreed to contribute, I guess, at a pace that was somewhat equivalent to automatic, and then they didn't. This is Matt Mullenbeck's report, not mine. And then the second reason is that they change core functionality of WordPress when they host it.
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And they change it for reasons that he does not like. Specifically, he pointed out that they will disable revision control, which is, according to Matt Mullenweg, a core aspect of what WordPress offers, since it is a content editing system and it has built-in revision control for many years. WP Engine... disables that feature.
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Matt Mullenweg says in order to save money on hosting, they don't have to host all those different versions of every post or page. So those are the things that he said, and he said it live on, he said it from the WordCamp stage, so it was kind of like a public call-out. I mean, it literally was a public call-out.
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So WP Engine then, their lawyers got together and sent a cease and desist to Automatic,
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Like, layered up, you know, straight up. Literally a cease and desist, saying automatic must stop doing what? Slandering them? The WP Engine trademark or something?
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So you're more about the show than the song. Yeah.
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Gotcha. And the WP Engine cease and desist letter has some pretty shady stuff in it that it seems that Matt Mullenweg has done. Specifically, which seems kind of extortative. Is that the word? Extortion? Or is it... I don't know. It does seem like that, right? It's because it's kind of like, you know, you got a nice business there. It'd be terrible if you lost it. You know, that kind of thing.
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It'd be terrible if something happened to it. Yeah. In fact, they claim, now this is all claims now. I don't know if this has been adjudicated in a court of law.
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Allegedly. So we mentioned that he originally called them out at WordCamp US during his keynote. Yes. Well, allegedly, WP Engine's lawyers allege that in the days leading up to Mr. Mullenweg's September 20th keynote address at the WordCamp U.S. convention, Automatic suddenly began demanding that WP Engine pay Automatic large sums of money.
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And if it didn't, Automatic would wage a war against WP Engine. This demand was accompanied by allegations about WP Engine's business that were not only baseless, but also bore no relation to the payment demand. So they go on, of course, they're going to lay out those kind of things. My assumption here is this is like, hey, you are infringing on our trademark.
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You're also doing other things I don't like. If you give us a bunch of money, then we will basically license you, or I don't know what the exact... Agreement would be, but so much so that he's sending text messages to WP Engine's CEO, whose name I don't know, leading up to the keynote and saying like, hey, I don't have to do this. You know, let's make a deal.
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He even says in this text message that they include in the document, if I'm going to make the case to the WP community about why we're banning WP Engine, I need to do it in my talk tomorrow. Your Delane is just trying to remove that. And he says some other things as well, which you can read too. We'll link up to the PDF. This is crazy, this.
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Not yet. Have you ever tried the Pee Wee Herman move? You know, get up on the bar and dance.
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Yeah, Matt gives numbers on that. He says that Automatic, which is a similar size company in terms of revenue to WP Engine, contributes back 3,915 hours a week to WordPress, the open source project. WP Engine, under this new ownership, contributes back 40 hours a week. Yeah, like probably one person.
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It's just not how you do things. You think Matt Mullenweg said, you know, get the name WordPress out your mouth.
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Nick, your thoughts on the matter. You've been silent as we review and correct each other on the details. Lots of details here. We may not have it. Like Adam said, there's probably missing context on both sides for us.
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Yes, but I can't remember who. I know I threw mine on the couch last week. Somebody just chucked it across the room. They're like, it won't stop talking, so just chuck it. That's right. I think it wasn't because it was buzzing. It was because it was ringing. It wasn't what Nick just did. Okay, Nick, continue. You got two phones, Nick? No, let's stop.
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Really? Yeah. They were a sponsor of WordCamp. $75,000 they spent to be a sponsor. So a large sponsor of WordCamp. And so I do think that Matt probably hit some sort of a boiling point here.
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As I said in the beginning, Adam and I have interviewed Matt a couple of times. He is a very nice guy. He's soft-spoken. He's very thoughtful. Yeah. He's been very successful and brought a lot of success to a lot of people. I don't know him personally. I don't know if he, you know, a lot of very soft-spoken, nice people also have tempers and can just go off. Maybe that's him. I don't know.
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But this does seem like an out-of-character thing, or it was a surprise to me when I heard about it.
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Okay. We work on that.
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I've always appreciated Matt Molenbeek's investments. He like invests in things that I think are cool. And then he a lot of times will open source them after investing. That's awesome.
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Is this like a daytime phone, nighttime phone thing? So you're always on offense like that one guy?
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Revision control. So every time you make an edit, it saves the version.
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Yeah, I mean, at their scale, it's probably significant savings. This does sound like a private equity move, would be like to go in and cut costs, and that would be one way to cut costs. Now, having said that, This is not like changing the way WordPress works. This is a WP config option that is default to on, that WP Engine, the company, defaults now to off.
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And so I think you can go back in, I would hope that you go back in through their interface. Surely you can configure your WordPress through hostings and turn it back on again. But this is just totally a private equity thing to do. It's like, let's cut costs. Here's one way to do it.
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And I can see where that's a legit move by them as a business, but it also offends Matt Molenweg as the creator of WordPress.
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You must have large pockets.
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Right, litigation now. Litigation. I mean, the trademark thing is murky, like Adam said. But then here's a challenge to you. You're going to start up a WordPress hosting company. What can you call it? Flywheel. Flywheel. Well, they don't exist anymore. Exactly. I mean, they get bought by WP Engine. I don't know who Flywheel is. I think they probably did. I think they did. Yeah, they did.
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We know Flywheel well because Flywheel is an Omaha company. Did you know that? Yeah, I did know that. Yeah.
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To fit that phone in.
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I have such large pockets.
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I don't see the difference between a blog post and a WordCamp keynote. I think that like that's just to the level.
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Why? You think a blog post isn't going to also create an entire news cycle around this? I mean, of course it would.
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Okay, so same overall size probably.
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I don't think there is one. I don't think she let him write one. No. Ooh, Jared. That's fair. I think there's probably some taste to that. I think it speaks to the level of his anger. I don't have a problem with the WordCamp keynote. He created WordPress. He's there to give an update. He can say what he wants. I think he's earned that right.
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For me, it's like the give me a bunch of money and I won't do this thing like that is where it's super dicey. Like, no, that's not integrity at all. Like, why? Why all of a sudden, if you pay me a bunch of money, does it not matter anymore? I mean, isn't he already uber rich? Why would he that whole deal?
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And like, I'm about to do this, like to me, like that's where he loses me more so than the venue. But I do understand your argument there about not the time or the place. I do go back to this, though, like whose side do we have to be on? First of all, You know, what does it matter what we think?
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But secondly, I agree, like WordPress.org, I think we should all be on the side of WordPress, the open source community. And when we look about these two corporate entities, both of which are making billions of dollars in revenue, so there's no small dog here. Didn't he say? I think he said 500 million ARR. They do have about a half a billion in revenue.
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Okay, so half a billion on top of WordPress.
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So you're mostly accurate. Yeah, sure. So what's a billion between friends? WP Engine is contributing back one developer, one full-time developer. Meanwhile, Automatic is employing 97.875 developers. full time on this open source project, that's an astounding amount of investment. Almost 100 people working full time on an open source project. I think they've earned their bona fides for that.
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I mean, I think these two things are not comparable. It's like comparing a million dollars to a billion dollars. And the difference is like roughly a billion.
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Well, I mean, we're doing, it's not 100. We rounded and stuff. We did. Like we're just basically. Fine. I will take it to 97.
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Rick? Leave it in. Fine. I was going to correct myself. Rick? Nick Rick. That's the rub, Rick.
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Yeah, I had multiple iPads and I discarded them all or gave them away eventually because, again, I just never used them. It's like I have a laptop and a phone and there's really not much room in my life for something in between. But I'm rocking the 14 Pro as my daily driver, as my singular phone, although I am planning on upgrading because I'm on an every-other-year upgrade cycle.
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Rick Rubin.
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Show title. The wrong place to slap a person. All right. Well, that's how it stands right now. And then you have our comments on the matter. I think we're starting to circle the wagon. So let's not camp out here any longer to reuse Adam's pun.
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This will be figured out in the court of law, it seems, unless there's a settlement, because now they're both suing each other and it's going to get nastier from here. So maybe we'll talk about it more.
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I still have them right here.
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I can. There are 10 of them. We have 10 free passes to the in-person All Things Open 2024 in Raleigh, North Carolina at the end of October. These are ours to give to whomever we please. Yes. And so we're going to give them away here soon to members of our community in our new community chat, which lives in Zulip. Don't slack it to us.
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Slack has been slacking and we are now in Zulip chatting in a much more organized fashion. We're enjoying it quite a bit. Keyboard driven, open source, indie. Built by hackers. Bootstrapped, right? Yeah. Yes. Not so much anti-VC, but VC-resistant. So far, no VC. VC-resistant. Straightforward business model. I'm not even against VC, clearly, by the way. Me either.
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I'm against VC with, we'll figure out the business model later. That's what I'm against. Anytime it's like, we'll make it up in volume, that's where it ends up being advertising is the only answer. and now you are not incentivized with your end users. I don't mind VC to bootstrap a company that otherwise wouldn't exist otherwise. There's too many otherwises. But have a business model.
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But this is probably the first time where I was like, do I need to go every other year? Because this phone I have is pretty stinking fine.
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I think that developer tools and developer communities have a much more straightforward line. than something like a browser, a consumer product, because we've seen it. Hosting is a straight line, as WordPress has proven out, and freemium is a straight line, as many dev tools have figured out. You build these extra features, not around a single individual user, but around a team.
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which means they're backed by a company, hopefully a company that's making money for itself and has money to spend. And so I think a lot of these venture-backed dev tools companies, I don't know if Raycast is venture-backed or not. I guess it is. A lot of our advertisers are venture-backed, and that's why they have some money to spend on getting their name out there, right?
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And so that's a straightforward thing. I don't know if Raycast is a premium based on a pro version, right? But a lot of these are going teams. When you have a team, there's our business model. Warp is doing that, Zed is doing that, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that's a pretty straightforward line. That doesn't bug me.
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Of course, there's still the question of can you actually make enough money with that model to... make money for your investors and thrive and all that. But at least it's there and it's obvious. And it's not like, well, we'll just figure it out later. That's my biggest concern with venture backed. What about those ATO tickets? 10 free tickets. A little sideways monologue there. I liked it.
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For getting me back. Well, I was trying to clarify my stance earlier. I'm not just a hater.
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That's right. You have two new buttons. So there's the camera control and then the action button. Now of those two, I feel like, why? Why the action button? It just does one thing, right?
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Here's my concern with provide us a pun in our Zulip chat. Is that... That's just a lot of friction. He's vetoing it. Fine. I just want to get those 10 tickets out there for people, you know, make it easy. You know, introduce yourself. How about that? That's a good way. Introduce yourself in Zulip and say, uh, I take a free pass to ATO. Something like that. Yeah. It'll be yours.
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First 10 people to do that. Bam.
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You can't just keep reusing the same funds over and over again, Nick. You've got to add something to the mix.
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The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Ahoy, hoy. Yeah, there you go. Let's do it that way. If you put a pun in there. Bonus. You're going to get so many reaction emoji. Nick will be all over it. He might even camp out in there with you. In fact, I'll just put it out there right now. If you have a good pun, Nick will put on your post every single emoji in the list. Trust me, he has time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
It's going to flex his scripting skills on this one. Actually, there is a way in the Zulip API, which I've been coding against this week, to add reactions to a post. So actually, Nick, you could code that up if you wanted to.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Do you push it differently for each thing?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That is day one. It's called noise, not signal. That's not, that's, that's metrics though. That's good. Good job.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Not your track. We don't need yours. We'll, we'll drop you out in post.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
The long press is back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Don't need that now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Oh, the flashlight. Yeah. I thought I just launched BIM on your computer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Right. Like, at what time of the day should I just start Kiss by Prince, you know? Like, 9.30 p.m. is just that song. 7.30 a.m., man. That's the wake-up song. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Right. That was a fun time in life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Don't you hate that song though?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That's the problem. That's why you never set your favorite song to wake you up because you end up hating it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, let us know when you've had enough. I'd like to know. It'd be a good social experiment.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
So the prior one's cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Don't you have Apple intelligence FOMO? Cause that's, they're, they're limiting it to the new ones.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Mm-hmm. Are you getting FOMO, Adam? Is it working?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
That's the killer app, isn't it? It's better Siri. That's what this thing is selling.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, they haven't really released it yet. Right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I'm going to have to go ask again. I knew it was one of those two, but off the top of my head, I wouldn't know. I think it's 32.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
No, that's also a pretty basic math.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
There are more complicated maths than that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Well, that whole deal is a lookup table. One person coded that thing one time, and it's just some sort of thing that just lives in memory on every device in the world. For everyone who ever needs to know. That's the kind of stuff that humans ask all the time. I mean, I can't remember that stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
Yeah, where you talk to it like her.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The wrong place to slap a person (Friends)
I still don't have that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Welcome to Changelog and Friends, a weekly talk show all about that bass. Special thanks to our partners at Fly.io, the public cloud built for devs who ship. Deploy your app in five minutes or less at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
That was it. I was keen on the exact same thing. I was thinking how liberating it must be to not have that thing that so many of us have, which is this need to capitalize, basically, to produce profit when you have. I mean, obviously, you still have a need for donations, an epic need for donations. And you've been working on that as an entrepreneur will be working on their revenue, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Uh, I think that's my just watching you like, and you've gotten that flywheel going to the point where, you know, sustainability seems to be there. Of course, that all also relies on future donors. So I'm not saying if you're interested in donating a free cone cap, I'm not saying they don't need your money anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I'm just saying that you've gotten into a point where it seems like you're stabilized and you don't have a hook anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
The market changes. It's very difficult to keep up once you're established, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I don't know, Quincy. You can go ask Sam Altman for the workarounds. I think he's got some stuff figured out over there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
No, I was not being serious.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Well, actually, if this thing goes through as it seems like it's going to, this open AI reshuffle, I don't know how it's all shaken out. It's very much like smoke and mirrors. It's kind of a bad precedent for other entrepreneurs to like, well, why don't we just have a nonprofit and then somehow convert it when it's economically smart to do that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I don't want to go down that rabbit hole necessarily, but it could be a bad precedent. Such a public and valuable organization doing that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Let's talk about demand because, you know, we've had a market correction, you know, hashtag learn to code had its moment and it's kind of gone now in terms of it being like a cultural thing where like everybody must learn to code. And there was a time where you could go through free code camp and do the very strenuous work. I mean, how many hours that is 90 hour courses.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I mean, that was the original thing, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Nobody ever finishes it. So it's a lot of effort, but you could put it, you could do it in six months, maybe nine months. How long would it take?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And at the other side of that tunnel, maybe three or four years ago was almost a guaranteed opportunity and a little bit harder today in today's market. Is that fair to say Quincy?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Right. I would say right now, my product, my personal productivity increase has probably been like 20%, like from one to 1.2, something like that. Yeah. Like it's nice. It's helped me. I continue to use it. I will. I, I appreciate every time it gets better, but yeah, 20% improvements, not going to dramatically change your engineering team structure. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I mean, I don't disagree. I think that unless you grew up and you're like 12 years old selling something on the corner, like you were like, some people are just sales people from the start, you know, like they're making money. They're hustling at 12, 13, 14. Like, yeah, go ahead. They start their first business at the age of 18.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Most of us do well to learn on somebody else's dime and just work for them, let them make the mistakes, let them make the profits, right? You get your wage and you get your education along the way. And then after a little while, then yeah, maybe it's your turn to strike out and take a shot at it. But you can sure avoid a lot of easy errors by working for somebody else for a little while.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
So I don't disagree.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Well, a lot of us would like to avoid that particular annoyance as well, but that's a different podcast. Yeah, I 100% agree. I think the law of diminishing returns applies to almost everything, including how much money You have and can make at a certain point. We've talked to many people who've made it and the money stops driving them because it's just like, well, that's just not a thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And you think satisfaction is at the end of that particular like high watermark. And it turns out, no, it's way, way, way lower. in terms of now that this money has taken care of my base needs, I don't have that stress of anxiety of if my car has a, you know, if I have a $400 bill, emergency bill, I can't pay that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Like when you get past that point, when you're like, yeah, I can pay my bills, I can pay my mortgage, put food on the table, maybe have a little bit of spending money, you know, to do a vacation or to scratch an itch or a hobby, at a certain point, The liberty and the freedom is way more valuable than that next million or whatever that number happens to be in your head. So I'm with you on that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
10 years, Quincy. 10 years. Free code camp. We got together on your fifth birthday slash anniversary. I'm not sure which one you refer to. Is it a birthday, Adam? Or is it an anniversary when a thing turns an age? Seems like a birthday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Can we talk curriculum?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Let's talk curriculum. So you have the core curriculum, of course, it's expanded and changed and you have a legacy curriculum because you've probably rewritten things, you know, over the years. And it's probably like the main thing that you think about as a, uh, is curriculum reaching more people. I don't know. It's probably like your core two things that I would guess. Um,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
A lot of the curriculum is web development oriented. Of course, it doesn't stop there. I'm sure you'll tell me the plethora of things. But if somebody was going to start today, I'm just thinking about web as a platform for success and how it's changed and we have these silos now and there's a lot of aggregation of profits to a few small organizations.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And I'm wondering how viable the web is as a platform for future endeavors. Like, is that a place where we as developers or wannabe developers should be still investing and honing on web development as a starting place? Or should I be looking into data science? Should I be looking into robotics? Like,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
What is smart for somebody who's trying to get into the game or invest in themselves, maybe switch their focus in the game?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
That sounds amazing. Very amazing. That's my entire commentary. That sounds amazing. That sounds amazing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Mission-critical code in C?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I know that's how they do it. I'm not sure if that's how they should continue to do it for our, our new, our new people should be learning perhaps a memory safe, low level language, but.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Oh, I get it, man.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
The universe is taunting me. I love it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
It's a starter job.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I'm just kidding.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
English, Quincy, we already speak English.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Very cool. that English stuff wasn't our transcripts going to be used for some of that, or there was an endeavor you all were putting together with our transcripts to be involved somehow.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
For sure. Right. For sure. Yeah. That's exciting. I'll have to work on my English in order to live up to that, you know, Quincy. If people are going to be looking at us, Adam, and saying this is expert level English, we should work on it, don't you think, Adam? I try.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Yeah, it seems like a system prompt. You can have custom system prompts for different sessions, and you could have one that just has that in there so that you don't have to say it every single time you enter into a chat. I definitely can see.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Are they ignoring you? We're still at the ignoring part.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
It's like saying education is a scam, right? Like, The question is, is it worth the price of admission, right? Like if you're being educated for free, like there's no scam there, right? If you're being educated for far too much money, now maybe we can say, okay, this is- That's a scam, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, at the end of the day, it's education.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And so education, if you can make it free, is of immense value, which is what Quincy is doing. And I think they'll continue to ignore you, maybe to their detriment. But I was thinking about the- the Harvard football team and these Ivy league football teams. And I was amusing myself as you talked Quincy, thinking about the free code camp football team and what that might look like.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And then I had an idea, you know, a new institution for a digital age, e-sports. Like it's kind of a joke, but maybe like you have enough people involved that, you could very easily and cheaply put together a free code camp e-sports initiative. And you could just, you know, a little bit of merch, maybe some Mountain Dew, whatever the e-sports people need that they power them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And you could have a little free code camp League of Legends, free code camp Rocket League team. Like you could have some teams and be like the first educational institution that truly embraces e-sports. That might be kind of cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Sure. Sure. Sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
You wouldn't be because universities are not doing esports. I mean, you would be the, talk about reaching the next generation of coders. You know, they're out there playing games, man. They're out there watching the experts stream their games. Just an idea. You don't have to, you don't have to commit to it. He's resistant. Yeah, I know. But he's going to mull on it. He's going to think about it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I was just going to ask you about that because this was my segue into this merging of the two things, right? Like when we last talked to you, and I'm watching this video game stream behind you as we talk, so I'm also thinking games, is you had this idea of gamifying education and getting this software developer video game, which you eventually released a game, right? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Like candy crush style.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
No, I'm not asking you to commit right now. I'm just looking for a spot on your Rocket League team. That's all.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Just kidding. I'm terrible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
That's true. Yeah, I'm going to have to move on campus.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Okay, well, this is getting more and more difficult. I see you're raising the stakes. It probably will be. There's a lot of good players over there. Hilarious. Well, what have we not plumbed? Let's talk about the future real quick. Future of education. You know, here we are 10 years in, we've talked to you five years back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I think we had talked in between as well, but this is our anniversary episode, 10 years of Free Code Camp. Can you look, is it even possible to look 10 years down the road and like, you know, just think of what it might look like then? He knows exactly where it's going to be. He does look at him. He's like, he's got a roadmap. Show us the roadmap. He's got an answer ready for us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
What are some dangerous situations you've been avoiding recently?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Yeah. I might do defensive driving. Yeah. How about peeing on electric fence? Yes. Avoid that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
You mentioned your bass. Let's finish. Let's close with you playing us some bass. Now, Quincy has what he calls the Free Code Camp theme song, which I don't know if that's what you're going to play for us. Play whatever you like.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
That's what he's doing, aren't you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Virtual Insanity. There's some good YouTube videos about the making of that video. I've seen those. Yes. Yeah. Very cool. It's crazy time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
We got good ideas around here, Quincy. Well, speaking of good ideas and good podcasts, we are going to go now record an episode of the Free Code Camp podcast with Adam and Jared. So to our listener, if you want more of us three talking on a different show, check out Free Code Camp podcast at least this week, but every week and see what Quincy's
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
doing and you can hear us talk more about ourselves I suppose I'm not sure what we're going to talk about but we'll see we'll see hopefully it's good bye friends bye friends cheers Free Code Camp is such a wild success, bringing immense value to so many people all around the world. Congrats once again, Quincy and team. And here's to the next 10 years of teaching folks how to code for free.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
So cool. As I was saying at the end of the conversation, Adam and I hopped out of our Riverside studio and into Quincy's Riverside studio for another, I don't know, 90, maybe 100 minutes on the Free Code Camp podcast. That one isn't out quite yet. I believe it'll ship closer to our actual 15th anniversary, which is in mid-November.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
When it does, I'll link it up in Changelog News so you don't miss it. You do subscribe to news, don't you? One reader just this week hit reply and told me it's the best newsletter for developers out there. That felt good. Check it out if you're missing out at changelog.com slash news.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
Thanks again to our partners at Fly.io, to our beat freak, the GOAT, Breakmaster Cylinder, and to you for listening. We appreciate you hanging out with us. Next week on The Changelog, news on Monday, David Hennemeyer-Henson talking Rails 8 on Wednesday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And on Friday, we're in Raleigh for all things open next week, so I don't know what we're shipping on Friday, but I'm willing to bet it'll be good. Maybe even great, but definitely good. Okay, now I'm rambling. Let's wrap this up. Have a great weekend. Please do share our show with your friends who might dig it, and let's talk again real soon.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I'm reminded of that quote that says people overestimate what they can do in 10 days and they underestimate what they can do in 10 years. And I think that Free Code Camp at 10 years might be a great example of that quote being true because the accomplishment at this point seems massive and epic.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
And I'm sure, maybe not wilder than your imaginations, but if you look back to Quincy in 2014 and you told him where it is today, he would probably be a pretty happy camper, wouldn't he?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
It's a good size team for a nonprofit.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Ten years of freeCodeCamp (Friends)
I mean, 21 countries, that's, that's astounding. So there's so many different things going on, you know, in and around the free code camp. How do you Quincy decide what to work on? Like what's the, what's important today? How do you make those kinds of calls?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Why didn't you start it? What was your internal intrinsic motivation to begin with?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. There's a weird psychological thing. Maybe, Adam, you know more about this than I do from your brain science studies. But there's something about confidence that comes from not caring that actually refeeds the same loop, even with attraction. Where it's like the person who's not desperate ends up being more attractive to other people because of that mere fact that they aren't.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so there's something about that with, I think, confidence as well, where it's like the fact that you weren't there for these ulterior motives is actually even cooler than than if you were. And it's like that feeds back into the coolness factor. You guys understand what I'm saying here? I don't know how to describe it very well, but there's something to that, isn't there, Adam?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I'm just not sure if confidence is the right word.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Right. I think self-assurance is a good way of describing it. And I think that it does take that in order to go live on the internet and code in front of strangers. I mean, you have to have some self-assurance because they're going to be watching near every move, right, Suze? I mean...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Welcome to ChangeLog, and friends, a weekly talk show about Beverly Hills, 90210. Thanks, as always, to our partners at Fly.io. Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly, and so can you in five minutes. Learn how at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
The fact that you're okay with just making mistakes in front of people requires a certain level of self-confidence. Ah, not confidence, I guess. It's okay. I'm still going to stick with it. I think it's self-confidence. It works. It's challenging as well. Yeah. It's a podcast. That a lot of people don't have. I mean, or you have to build it. Even your...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What about your keynote speaking, like speaking in public and stuff? Are those things that require practice, nerves, like all that kind of stuff?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. Like, no, I don't get nervous.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I think we actually talked to you shortly after that. I think you had just come off the keynote.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You were decompressing live in front of us. It was awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Because you were so wound up for it. There's something about that moment when you're done where it's like, everything's better, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You gotta hate it when a successful keynote backfires, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
All you get is compliments and crypto.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Have you ever considered going anonymous?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
So we were talking with Chris Wanstroth a couple weeks ago, founder of GitHub, one of the founders. And obviously after GitHub sold to Microsoft, he took his money and went home and took some well-earned rest time. And during that time, he got eventually bored of
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
playing video games and stuff, and he got back into coding, but he didn't want anybody to know that it was him because everyone's going to treat him differently, especially on github.com being defunct, right? You're not going to just treat him like a regular person. And so he went and just created an anonymous handle, and he was contributing to people's projects for a long time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
as this just rando person that likes open source. And I think he had a lot of success with that. Eventually he said he pulled the mask off to a few folks who like he became friends with eventually that he was like longtime contributors to their project that became friends. And then he would tell them who he actually is, but he had a lot of success with that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And I think that that's one way that you can get what you want. If what you want is like focus on the work, focus on the technical, focus on maybe my thoughts, my words, and not so much on my person, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
We can listen to Change Logging Friends With Adam and Jerry and people you know Change Logging Friends
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You could be like the Banksy of the programming scene.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Right. You just can't ever pull the mask off. That's all.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, you just have to suck more, you know? Just don't be good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I don't find it strange. I mean, I think it's... Pretty common, right? Strangely common. The desire for fame and fortune is deep down inside of us, isn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Being famous. Were there any heartthrobs, Adam, when you were growing up and you thought, I would love to be like him? For instance, I can say, when I was young, I have an older sister, three years older, and she had friends. And so, of course, younger boy, older sister, sister's friends, very stereotypical, right? And they were very much into New Kids on the Block. This was like 1990. For sure.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
So I was eight, nine, ten years old. And specifically, was it Donnie Wahlberg? I don't know. I can't remember who the Naked Kids on the Block were. But they were heartthrobs. They'd walk into a room and all the women would scream. And then they'd have all this money and these cars and everything. And it's like, I wanted to be that guy. I don't think that's abnormal.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Did you have anything like that? Or you just wanted to be a corporate lawyer ninja?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Jason Priestley, that's his name, yes. If I could be him, my life is solved. Because of the sideburns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Suze, who did you want to be when you were a little kid?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I think we just see it more now because it's so easy to put yourself out there. Whereas you go back to when we were children and those people who wanted to be famous, well, they had to go move to Los Angeles and wait tables while they did all these tryouts and stuff. And their failures weren't public. They happened, but we didn't see them. Or their desires to be that thing, nobody knew.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
that I wanted to be Donnie Wahlberg or whatever his name was. I actually More than that, I remember being like, man, girls like the New Kids on the Block. I wish I was one of them. That was a fleeting moment. But my desire was more to be a professional athlete, which is another route to all the exact same things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so I wanted to be either Michael Jordan or Ken Griffey Jr., so baseball or basketball. Those are actually guys that I really wanted to be. Same with Ken Griffey. Whereas a passing fancy was like, oh, I'd love to be a famous singer. But I actually was like, if I could be Ken Griffey Jr. and do what he did, that would be a great life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so I actually put effort into that kind of stuff for a while. I don't know. I just feel like we see it more. I think it's more tangible to how easy it is. I mean, it's hard, but it's also easier now. I mean, there's more.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Suze, do you remember New Kids on the Block? Were you around?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I'm blue. Did I die?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
That was actually more my timing as well. It was my older sister that was new kids on the block. So I just, I think I was more, I had them at a younger age, but yes, in my formative years, it was NSYNC and Backstreet Boys. And by then I didn't want to, I didn't look up to those guys. I was just kind of annoyed by them. Although there is some talent there. But thanks for closing the loop, Adam.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Now, please move us to a new loop before we start singing again.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
So CTFs are fun. I did those back in college. I really loved it. And I think working on a red team would be super cool. I don't like the fact that at the end of it, you just have to write this long report. I don't know. Maybe, maybe the LLMs write that for you now and it's less cumbersome, but I hated that part. It's like, oh, now we've got to write a hundred page report.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And it's like, well, I'd rather just do the hacking and you write the report. Thank you very much. But is that what you were actually doing was red teaming and stuff or what's your day to day?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What are the various tools in the tool belt of a threat hunter?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Like, it was Banksy. It was somebody named Banksy. Mm-hmm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
How do these threat hunters get access to the infected systems without fear of additional hacks? Is it like the Heisenberg effect? By inspecting it, you're actually modifying it. Is it like clone a snapshot of the disk and work with it offline? Or what do they do in order to actually go about their work?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, I definitely was categorizing forensic people with threat hunting, but I assumed they would be operating at least in similar timeframes with regards to a breach, but...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
It's usually like a self-destructing letter, isn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
How much does that draw out your coding skills? I imagine quite a bit as you go through that stuff because there's so much TDM otherwise.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, it's a lot easier to know what to look for in an Apache log if you've actually managed an Apache web server for a while for whatever reason, or if you've, it's a lot easier to use Docker if you've used Docker and all these things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I mean, maybe that sounds obvious, but when you lack that context, you really are poking out a black box, you know, and you're just like, you can't really get in past the surface very easily. So was, were you on your own or is it Teams?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. That's as far as I got back when I was in school. I understood how they work, and I could recreate one given certain circumstances. But if you wanted me to actually go in and execute arbitrary code with the no-op sled and stuff, I don't know how long to do this thing in order to land in the right spot. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, that's some expert level stuff right there. Us mere script kiddies can't go there. We can just run the script.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You're making me kind of want to get back in the game and give it a shot.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, I had an information assurance sub-program at my university. And so I spent the last two years doing all InfoSec things. I actually did some penetration testing right out of college. And between the report writing and the fact that I felt like when you audit somebody, you do your best, but you can't really say anything at the end of the day except for, well, we did our best.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And it's better than not having been audited. But I always was like, there's like a false sense of security that you have now, which I don't feel really, I don't feel great like selling that, you know, as a service, a false sense of security. And so I realized also I wasn't that great at it. Like I don't have as much of a hacker's, a breaker's mind as I do a maker's mind.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I like to create more than I like to break. It's kind of what I learned about myself, but also just that I was like, I kind of went a different direction from there. I managed some Linux networks for a while, and that's when I found out about web development and started doing all that kind of stuff. That just mapped to my mind better than breaking in and breaking stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
But it was fun, and I think the CTS was the best part because they were very much like... you know, stereotypical, like drinking Mountain Dew, staying up all night, you know, like doing all the things that you, that happens in the movies, you know, and without having to like write a report afterwards or stamp a thing that says you're secure on it, you know, they're just, they're just fun.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I think the escape room analogy is a, is a good one. Like the way it feels.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
The main ones that we did were, there was a planted vulnerability, and it was teams. And you were attacking each other's machines and protecting your own. I'm not sure if that has a very specific name to it, that style of Capture the Flag. So then there would be a vulnerability on everybody's network. and the vulnerabilities were all different.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so as a team, you'd have to fortify your network while attacking the other people's networks, basically. And there would be some sort of a proof, like a flag, whatever imagine a flag would be, like a string of characters that you'd have to fetch off of their remote machine in order to prove that you penetrated it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And in the meantime, you'd have to be trying to find whatever vulnerabilities were on your machines in order to remove those vulnerabilities before you got hacked. And I remember one time we did them nationally And we got hacked and we got completely destroyed in like 18 minutes one time. Like we were just like, we were like, had our mountain dues and we're ready for a Friday night.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And like, we lost within the first half an hour because somebody was so much better than us. And I was like, oh, very talk about anticlimactic. It's like, oh, and we're dead. So that was fun, but it could have been more fun if we were better at it. That's the ones that I did. I'm not sure. I'm sure there's different ways they can set them up to do different things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yours sounds like it was levels, like there's levels of things that you have to do that you progress through.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
For sure. For sure. And it definitely felt like my Linux administration skills were peaking at that moment. Because you have to know all the commands. And you have to usually, I mean, the heat is on, which is the way it is, I guess. I've never been on a network that's under attack.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
in the real world but i'm sure it feels a lot like that where it's like if you have a an actual threat actor who has access to your internal network i mean it we're moving as fast as we can right like you got to figure out what machines they have access to how they got in like all these things what are we going to turn off or unplug or like it is a got to be a very stressful situation
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And so when the heat's on, you've got to know the commands. You can't be sitting there Googling, like, how do I reset the password on this and that? All those things kind of go out the window, and you've got to just move fast. And so I definitely leveled up through those experiences, even when it only lasted 18 minutes. Those are good 18 minutes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And then you run it again and they're back and you're like, no, they're back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I feel like we should team up and do one. I need a team. I don't have a team anymore, sis. Although you're located three-quarters of the way around the world from me, so it probably wouldn't be the best.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, I think it depends on where you land, because I've definitely heard horror stories as well. And I've heard a lot of infosec industry people kind of liken it to game dev, you know, which is of all the software development careers, game dev is like, looks like the best, but is actually the worst. Yeah. Because everybody wants to be one. They're like the sweatshop of developers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Well, what's next for you, Suze? Is that something that's predetermined or you're still trying to figure it out? Still trying to figure it out. Can you talk about it or no?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Always with the funny, weird, offbeat projects going on. So for our listeners' sake who may not know that we've known you, Suze, for many years now, I think we met at OzCon, perhaps.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You must love knobs and...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
More dangerous than eccentric in my mind. You know, I think about flying planes and I'm like, well, what about when you're not good at it? Isn't that when you crash?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Right. You must be all right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, the smaller the plane, the scarier I, the more scared I am.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Well, the skies are more wide open. There's less idiots out there in the skies. You still have issues, I guess, with who's landing when and where. But that's the problem with motor vehicles. It's like everybody else making bad decisions.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, July. There you go. Was it in Austin?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Sounds cool. Well, how do we land this plane, Suze? I think we just say goodbye. Love catching up with you. Up to cool stuff. I'm looking forward to your pseudonymous, anonymous, open source contributions upcoming.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
I won't know it's you. But I just, I like the idea that you're out there, that you're out there doing your thing, even if nobody knows.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. We get it. We do get it. And we appreciate you opening up and sharing with us. Absolutely.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What do you think? Should I dust off my old copies of Nmap, Wireshark, and Metasploit and try my hand at capturing the flag once again? Let us know in the comments. We love hearing from you. One more thanks to our sponsors of this episode, Supabase, Speakeasy, Test Double, and Socket. And of course, to our partners at Fly.io and to our beat freak in residence, Breakmaster Cylinder.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Oh, and don't forget Sentry. Use code CHANGELOG when you sign up for a Sentry team plan and save yourself $100. Why not, right? Next week on The Changelog... News on Monday, Ryan Wuerl from Warpstream on Wednesday. And our next edition of the award-worthy Pound Define Game Show on Friday. Have a great weekend. Leave us a five-star review if you haven't yet. And let's talk again real soon.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, that sounds about right. We had you on the show, just cold email style, and then met in person there. And then did another show, maybe just part of a, we call them anthologies, where we just put together a bunch of interviews from a show. And I do recall that. And then after that... I was like, we got to get, we got to hang out with Steve's more often.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
So I invited you as a JS Party panelist, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
You did something like 40 or so episodes on JS Party for a couple of years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And we were, so we got to know each other and we were friends through a couple of transitions in your life. And then, I mean, it was Microsoft and then it was Stripe. It was New York and then Seattle or maybe the other way around. You can remind me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah, that's right. I guess Microsoft would be Seattle. So yeah, New York, Seattle. I remember Stripe. And then Visa issues. I'm not sure how much you want to go into any of that, but you're obviously from Australia. Anyways, we didn't talk for a couple of years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
And then I emailed you like, let's catch up. And then I realized you haven't talked... publicly online very much in the last couple of years. Not Twitter, your Twitch stream, which was one of the things that made you most well-known. Doesn't look like you've streamed for a while unless you have a new Twitch account. And now you're back in Australia. So as much as you're willing, tell us the story.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What's the last couple of years been like for you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
It's just like me putting it together from what I can gather. I have no idea what happened.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
Yeah. Sounds like you did it though. It succeeded.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The great escape room (Friends)
What was the hardest part to step away from? It seems like maybe your Twitch stream because there was a lot of people that just loved to hang out with you every week. That stream, which I watched it a few times over the years, was very intimate and seemed like there was a lot of friends there. They probably missed you when you decided to stop.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I'm seeing it two words everywhere. Yeah. Except for old English.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Where is pip dream? All one word.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Just let it marinate. Not now. Not yet. Pipe media?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I mean, I think that's a bold roadmap. Let me add this to the roadmap or maybe I'm not seeing it in the repo and it's there. Test harness. Is there a test harness?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I would love to be able to develop against this with confidence, especially once we start adding those edge redirects and different things. I would love to have that as part of the roadmap so that I can fire it up and create an issue.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So I'm going to open source the issue and then you open source the code. Amazing. I love that. Just making sure you didn't say PR is welcome and you're moving on. Cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I don't know. There's a possibility there. I think we build it for ourselves and then we'll know more.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, I think we build Pipe Dream in the open, and then if we decide that there's a possibility there, then you genericize it in a separate effort.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, a weekly talk show about the perfect name. Thanks to our partners at Fly.io. Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly, including ours. You can too in five minutes or less. Learn how at Fly.io. Okay, let's Kaizen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Kaizen 16, Gerhard, what have you prepared for us this Kaizen? I think every time, I don't know what to expect. And this time, I do know what to expect. So what changed? What's new? What's fresh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So custom feeds is a feature of changelog.com that we wanted to build for a long time. Probably not quite as long as we waited on chapters, but we've been waiting mostly because I had a a false assumption or maybe a more complicated idea in mind. We wanted to allow our Plus Plus members to build their own feeds for a long time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
The main reason we want to allow this is because we advertise ChangeDog Plus Plus as being better. Don't we Adam? Yeah, it is better. It's supposed to be better.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
However, people that sign up and maybe only listen to one or two of our shows, whereas they previously would subscribe publicly to JS party for instance, and maybe ship it, they now have to get the plus plus feed, which was because of supercast all of our episodes in one ad free master feed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And so for some people, that was a downgrade because they're like, wait a second, I want the Plus Plus versions, but I also don't want all your other shows, to which we were quite offended, but we understand. And that's been the number one request. I would call it a complaint, but actually our supporters have been very gracious with us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
They ask for it, but they say it's not a big deal, but it would be nice. In fact, some people sign up for Plus Plus and continue to consume the public feeds because that's what they want to do. But we wanted to provide a solution for that for a very long time. And because it was plus plus only, I had it in terms of like blockers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I had this big blocker in front of it, which was we need to get off Supercast first. Because that's the reason why it's a problem is because Supercast works this way, which is our membership system that's built all for podcasters. And it's served us very well, but it has some technical limitations such as this one. So moving off Supercast is a big lift.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And not one that I have made the jump yet because there's just other things to do and it works pretty well and lots of reasons. And so I didn't do custom feeds for a long time thinking, well, we got to get off of Supercast first. And then one day it hit me. Why? Why do we have to get off of Supercast? Can't we limp into this somehow?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Can't we just find out a way of doing it without getting off of Supercast? And the answer is actually pretty simple. It's like, well, all we need to know is are you a Plus Plus member or not locally to our system, which lives in Supercast? And then I remembered, well, Supercast is just using Stripe on the back end, and it's our Stripe account. And that's awesome, by the way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
They give us direct access to our people and no lock-in and stuff. And so kudos to them for that. And so I was like, no, all we actually have to know is, do you have a membership? And all the membership data is over in Stripe. And so it's simply a Stripe integration away from having membership information.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
here in changelog.com so i built that worked just fine and then i realized okay now i can just build custom feeds and just allow it to people who are members and so we build out custom feeds and it's pretty cool have you used them gearheart have you built a custom feed no i still consume the master feed the master plus plus feed with everything master plus plus feed yeah okay that's fair but do you know what i would love to do
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Are you a plus plus member? Of course you are because you have the plus plus feed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Okay. So sign in changelog.com. Yep. And go to your home directory, the tilde. Yes, I'm there. And there you should see a section that says custom feeds. I do see it. Okay. Click on that sucker.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
All right. There you go. Add a feed. Now you're going to give it a name that's required, you know, call it Gerhard's feed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Gerhard's feed. You can write your own tagline and that'll show up in your podcast app. Okay. You can be like, it's better.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Then you get to pick your own cover art because, hey, you may be making a single show feed. Maybe you're making all the shows. You can pick the plus plus one. You can pick a single show. Pick your cover art or you can upload your own file. You get to pick a title format. So this is how the actual episode titles come in to your podcast app.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Maybe you want to say like the podcast name, colon, the title of the episode. Maybe you just want episode titles, you know, put a format in there. And then you can limit your feed to start on a specific date. Some people want like fresh cuts between their, like the old days and the new days. And so they want to start it on this date because it doesn't mess up their marked as red or whatever.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
September 13th, start today. It'll start today. It's going to be empty. And then pick the podcast you want.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
with one of yours interesting right ours as in a changelog cover art that previously exists got it so you can like use js parties or upload your own file and you'll have your own cover art for your own feed
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Perfect. Boom, it's there. There you go. You build a custom feed. You can grab that URL, pop it into your podcast app, subscribe to it. Got it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I did both, yes. And then submitted the form? Correct, yes. Okay, you are the first person that's done that, I think.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
People usually pick one or the other. So, okay. Open an issue. I will get that fixed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Too good. So custom. So cool. You know, one thing I was going to do, which I haven't done yet, and this is a reminder is I want to put the change log legacy cover art in the list. Don't you think so, Adam? Like you can have the old change log legacy logo if you want.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Actually, that's an idea we had is to expand these to a bunch of maybe have custom artists come in and create new cover art you can select from. That might be cool. Very cool. But yeah, it's been kind of a screaming success, honestly. Currently, we have 320 Changelog++ members, and those 320 people have created 144 custom feeds so far.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
All right. We'll take us on this wild ride. Adam's also here. Adam. What's up?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Oh, I might've changed. I might've screwed that up yesterday when I was fixing something else. When I was giving you your account.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Okay, now that's all right. I think that that copy URL button should have copied the entire URL. Did it just give you the path, Gerhard? It did, yes. No wonder it's not a valid feed. So I literally fussed with that yesterday because I was giving Adam a different copy paste button and I might have broken it yesterday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, the href is correct, but the data-copy value is incorrect. And I'm pretty sure I broke that yesterday. So that used to work because all these other people are happy, but you're sad because I broke it yesterday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
It is taking its time, though. Well, the other reason why that was happening probably a few weeks ago is because... If you loaded a feed that has all of our episodes, for instance, 1,000 plus 12 megabyte XML file, we would serve it slow enough that Overcast would time out and it wouldn't think it was a valid feed. But then I fixed that by pushing everything through the CDN.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
You know it's up because Gerhard's here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Because at first, when I first rolled it out, it was just loading directly off the app servers. I know it's just a little bit too slow for Overcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I'm thinking you are an admin and so it doesn't matter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
The entire UI for building custom feeds only shows up if you are an active plus plus member or an admin, which is literally the three of us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Like you can't even build custom feeds. Now I did consider custom feeds for all, you know, let the people have the custom feeds, but plus plus people obviously would only get, be the only ones who get the checkbox. That's something that I'd be open to if lots of people want it. But for now I was like, well, let's let our plus plus people be special for a while.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Okay. Every custom feed has to be updated every time an episode's updated. And so if we had 100,000 of them, there would be some processing and maybe hit some R2, too many put actions versus, you know, it's free egress, but it's not free all operations. And so there's like class A operations, class B operations.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And the more you edit those files and change them, I think eventually those operations add up to costing you money, but it's marginal on the margins. If it got to be a huge feature where, I mean, if we had a hundred thousand people doing custom feeds, we'd find a way of paying for that. You know? Yeah. That's a different problem. But yeah, it's a marginal cost, but not, not worth considering.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yes, our user experience assumes that our users are nerds. And so far, before I broke that copy button yesterday, there's been zero people are like, now how do I get this into my podcast app? Like no one's asked us that because all of our plus plus members completely understand how to copy and get into their whatever, you know, they are smarter than me, most of them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Now, if it was for a broader audience and this was a baking show and we're going to provide custom feeds for bakers or aspiring bakers, then I probably would have to add more of a handholding. And Supercast actually does a really good job of handholding you into your private feed because it's not a straightforward mental process for most people, just for nerds.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
After the custom feed's created, we send you an email. That email contains a bunch of buttons. Each button's like add to Overcast, add to Pocket Cast, add to Apple Podcasts, and to paint on. I like that idea a lot. That's how Supercast works.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
We could certainly add a button that says email this to me. you know, next to the get URL, maybe like email me the URL. It's a good idea. And that's like a fast way to get it into your phone without having to do phone copy paste or airdrop like Gerhard did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So that's a good feature even for nerds. Cause it's just easier that way.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Totally. Which my email is. Exactly. I think that we should add that as a feature. It's a good idea.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Hey, Jared here in post. That email it to me feature just shipped today. And that copy paste bug fixed. Kaizen.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
If you are not a Plus Plus subscriber and you desperately want this feature, let us know. Because, you know, squeaky wheels and oil. Must be in Zulip. I don't know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Anyways. Well, not even, Gerard's not even in Zulip yet, so let's not get ahead of ourselves. No, but what's the URL? Because I would like to join. changelog.zulipchat.com.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
But can you just get on from there? I don't know. It's new to us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
All right, go to our Slack, go to main, scroll up a little bit. You'll see there's an invite link. To get into Zulip, you have to go to Slack. It's a Trojan horse. That's how you do it. That's right. You install one through the other.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I think it was both of ours. Adam said, can this be its own product or something? And I said, well, it could at least be its own repo, something like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
By the next Kaizen, we may be like transitioned over to Zulip. We might be self hosting it, but I don't think we should do that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And it's for all ideas about making things better and stuff. I even put one in there. You can read it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Oh, wow. So cool. This is nice. Isn't that cool? I thought a Kaizen channel would be on point. So cool. So I was kind of thinking like, well, how do we replicate our dev channel over here? And it's like, well, dev is just one thing. Like let's have a Kaizen and then different topics can be based on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
All right. Awesome. Custom feeds, Zulip chat, Kaizenine. What's next on the docket?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yes, it is. Amazing. I appreciate your enthusiasm. To tell everybody what the latest is, I literally put an arrow. And the words of the latest on our homepage that points to the issue, because it's kind of it could be discombobulating. Like you look at it on a desktop, at least on mobile, it goes vertical. But like on the left is kind of the information about news and the signups and stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And on the right is the latest issue. But you may not know, like, what am I looking at when you land on the page? What's the thing on the right-hand side? And so I just put this little arrow, handcrafted with SVG, by the way. And the words, the latest, like someone just scratched them on the page that points to that issue. So it's just kind of...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
giving you a little bit of context and Gerhard loves it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Historically. Historically, I would say too slow. Too slow, okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
There's like this threshold that I'm not sure exactly. It's probably fuzzy, but it's the point where like you're waiting so long that you forget that you're waiting and you go do something else. And I think that's measured in single digit minutes, but not necessarily seconds. Like I can wait 60 seconds. Well, that's my seconds. I can wait one minute.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
and maybe I'm just hanging out in chat waiting for that thing to show me that it's live yeah but as soon as it's longer than that I'm thinking well I should come back in five then I forget what I was doing I don't come back and I've lost flow basically so I would say around a minute you know 30 seconds would be spectacular it doesn't have to be instant but I think
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
two, three, four, five minutes, it's going to be where you're like, yeah, it's kind of like friction to deploy because you deploy and you're like, now I got to wait five or 10 minutes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
That's my very fuzzy answer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Well, for those who didn't listen to Kaizen 15, can you tell us what the pipe dream is?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah. And I think if you're at 90 seconds, you're probably right about there. I would still go in and spend an hour thinking like, is there a low hanging fruit that we haven't looked at yet that we could, you know, squeeze 10 more seconds off. And then I would stop squeezing the radish after that. You know, I see. That'd be my take on it, Adam.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So many quotes. Sure, let's hear it. I like hearing what I have to say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
If we get it down faster, it's even less.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So they're just like, they just use the Actions API, but you're running on their infra. Exactly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Okay. So there you go. What's funny is, you know how when you're shopping for a car and you look at a specific car, maybe you buy a specific car and then you see that same car and color everywhere. After this, I have realized not just hearing the word pipe dream or maybe the words, if we can debate, is it two words or one? But I actually realized I say that a lot.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Do we need to push this harder somehow? Like, do we need to get the vector search in our database or something? Weren't you going to set us up an AI agent, Gerhard?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
PG vector, man. PG vector. Get it in there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So we're not, we're not using this to its fullest extent is my point. No.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I call lots of things pipe dreams and I didn't realize it until you formalized it. And now I'm like self-conscious about calling stuff pipe dreams. I think I did it on a show just the other day. I was like, dang it. Cause now it's a proper noun. And I feel like it's a reserved word, you know? It's almost a product. Yeah, it's almost a product.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Adam, further thoughts or questions around Neon? This was your, this was your baby.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, I'm just saying, like, it's hard for us to use it and see if it's good or bad because we're not heavy database users. And I was just saying we just need some more arbitrary workloads to actually flex this thing. But I was mostly just being facetious.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I have a custom branch which I use to not develop against, but to sync from. I guess it's not mine, it's that dev 2024. That's the one I use. Maybe Gerhard created that, but that's the one that I do use. I pull from that, so I'm not pulling from our main branch because there's just less load on our main branch to do that. I'm using that, but I synchronize it locally, manually.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
and then develop against my own Postgres because I have a local Postgres. The one thing about it is because it's a neon branch, I will have to go in here and synchronize it back up to the main and then pull from it. And I'm sure that's automatable, but I just haven't done that. I've been waiting for Gerhard's all-in-one solution.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
If you could package up and sell 20 lines of Varnish, we would do it. But if you can't, we would at least open source it and let the world look at what we did. So it has its own repo and it has its own pull request. So, you know, it's going to be a real boy. Does it work? Does it do stuff?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I mean, I know you demoed it last time and it was doing things, but does it do more than it did before or is it the same?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I might need to get a brand new Mac so I can try this. Look at that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So it should be done before the day's over. Yeah, it should be done. Exactly. It should be done. One thing I'm noticing is that you're switching back to brew install Postgres.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
I just want to know how much you want to challenge this status quo.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
no no no that hasn't changed I'm just kidding cool so for our listener if you want to try this github.com slash the changelog slash changelog.com clone the repo brew install just just contribute that's it try those three steps if you're on macOS if you're on Linux it's not brew install just it's apt get install or yum install the installations are there yeah and just contribute
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
If you do just dash n. Now, what if you have an existing repo like Adam does? Can he do it and it should pick up where he, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Give that a shot there, Adam. I'm so scared.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Well, that's good because TalosCon is on-prem free and co-located with SRE Day. However, it's also over with. By the time this ships, it'll be two days in the past. And so happy to hear, Gerhard, that there'll be a video because certainly our listener will want to see what you're up to and it's in the past.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Indeed. Awesome. Well, great conversation. Good progress. This session, what do you call it? This Kaizen. This Kaizen, yes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Pipely.tech. I don't know. I think we've got to get Pipe.ly. Otherwise, we're just posers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
So we might have to raise some money for this if we're going to have to buy pipe.ly. We might need 50 grand. The future's coming, and we're going there. Kaizen. Kaizen. Bye, friends. What do you think about our pipe dream? Should we turn it into a pipe reality? A pipe-ly, if you will? Let us know in Zulip. Yes, we are hanging out in Zulip now. It's so cool how we have it set up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Each podcast gets a channel and each episode becomes a topic. This is great because you no longer have to guess where to share your thoughts about a show. Even if you listen to an episode way later than everybody else, just find its topic and strike the conversation back up. There's a link in our show notes to join Changelog's Zulip. What are you waiting for? An engraved invitation?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
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The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
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The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Have a great weekend. Leave us five-star reviews if you want some stickers, and let's talk again real soon.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Good roadmap. I dig it. So our logs currently go to S3, not to Honeycomb in terms of logs that we care about. And I know that I previously said we only care about our MP3 logs, not our feed logs in the sense of statistics and whatnot, but that has since changed. I am now downloading, parsing, and tracking feed requests like I am MP3 requests.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And so we would either have to pull that back out of Honeycomb, which maybe that's the answer, or somehow have it also write to where S3 is currently writing to in the current format for us to not have major rewriting on the app side. Thoughts on that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Do you know how you're going to implement Purge across all app instances? Like what's the strategy for that? No idea.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
We already have a Fastly Purge function in our app that goes and does a thing, and then we just change this to... Go and background Java reset on all these different. Now there has to be some sort of orchestration of like the instances have to be known. Maybe that's just like a call to fly or something, or I don't know how. DNS. Okay. DNS based.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah. That sounds like a straightforward way of doing it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
We upload. Currently? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Pipedream is just a cache. So you mean where's the cache data being stored?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Gotcha. And so Varnish is storing that cache locally on each instance. Correct. In its local disk storage, or however Varnish does what it does.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, exactly. Which is how it works right now with Fastly. Like after you edit an episode, we tell Fastly to purge that episode. The problem we had yesterday is that Fastly purged it, but then Cloudflare also had a small cache on it. And so Fastly would go get the old version again and say, okay, now I'm fresh. And so we had two layers of cache that we didn't realize.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
And so that's probably fixed now, but yes, it would be basically everywhere in our app that we call fastly.purge, we would just replace that with pipedream.purge or whatever, which would be an OBAN process that goes out to all the app instances.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Kaizen! Just do it (Friends)
Yeah, because we already have when pretty much figured out. Gotcha. Which is pretty straightforward, really, because when we publish and we edit or delete, those are the times that you purge the cache. Otherwise... What's the point?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The indispensable cog (Friends)
Finally it's time for changelogging friends With Adam and Jared and some other rando We hope that you love it and stay until the end We're not offended if you can't go We know you're probably busy coding And your deadline is pretty foreboding Your caffeine intake is an actual problem, so why don't we walk outside? And we can listen to Change Logging Friends with Adam and Jared in Silicon Valley.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The indispensable cog (Friends)
We know one day the gag will come to an end, but honestly that will probably be our finale. We bet you sling A1s and 0s. Bye. Bye. Bye.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Why is it so good?
The Startup Ideas Podcast
Niche Startup Ideas: Hedge Fund Data/Info Business, Expert Network, & AI-Generated Kids' Music
What the hell is it called? It's like Mango. Yeah, it's called Hmm, That's Strange.
The Startup Ideas Podcast
Niche Startup Ideas: Hedge Fund Data/Info Business, Expert Network, & AI-Generated Kids' Music
Mango cheese eggs? Donuts.