How About Tomorrow?
Time Moves Slowly, Friendships Drifting, and Adam Learns Something New About Dax
Mon, 28 Oct 2024
Time and friendships drifting slowly, what's going on with drones, movies made with iPhones, Dax is going to do something for the first time this year, is not being online a sign of mental health, naming things is hard, and Ghossty explained.Want to carry on the conversation? Join us in Discord. Or send us an email at [email protected] US & allied military capabilities with advanced technology. | Anduril28 Years Later: Danny Boyle’s New Zombie Flick Was Shot on an iPhone 15 | WIREDThe Office Bankruptcy DeclarationNext.js Conf by VercelSvelte 5 is aliveGhostty Mitchell HashimotoMitchell HashimotoTopics:(00:00) - Adam is white (00:26) - NFL prospects with Adam (01:28) - What sense of time do we have? (03:00) - The heavy lift of past friendships (07:50) - Let's not talk about time moving fast (09:43) - Conflict with New York (13:06) - What's going on with drones? (20:25) - Movies made with iPhones (24:03) - Adam learns something new about Dax (31:04) - Adam hasn't gone over a sea (32:38) - NextConf (34:59) - Being online is not healthy (39:08) - Does it matter if we don't care about new technology? (44:08) - Naming things is hard (45:26) - Will Adam ever do a side project again? (46:34) - Ghostty
Hi, my name is Dax and I'm using a mic. I'm a white person. How bad can it be?
The fuck are you smiling about?
Well, I mean, it's been a week. We skipped a week, so it's kind of like, I haven't talked to you in two weeks. There's that. I am kind of upset that I paused this video. I'm watching Ashton Ginty. He's a running back for Boise State. And I just kept hearing his name. It's one of those deals where it's like, You keep randomly hearing about this person. I mean, I listen to a lot of NFL stuff.
He's a college football player, and he's amazing. And I don't know why that's on our podcast, because it's very random. But you should watch some Ashton Gentry highlights. Running back. He's amazing. He's a running back? Yeah, and running backs. Yeah, running back highlights are always really fun. But running backs in the NFL, it's like whatever. It's just like... You can get a dime a dozen.
You don't really need a good running back. But then every once in a while, there's one of those generational prospects they call him. It's like they change franchises even at the running back position. He looks really good. Anyway, I don't know anything about running back or scouting or whatever. But the highlights are cool. Moving on.
When I say I need like 15, 20 minutes, am I the kind of person that when you hear that, you just immediately think it's going to be 45 minutes? Have I earned that reputation yet? Or do you not think that?
I live in Miami where nobody's sense of time can be trusted at all. So at this point, including my own. So at this point, I just don't even. So you're desensitized.
Okay, cool. Because I feel bad when that kind of thing happens. And then I'm like, is this what always happens? Do I have a reputation? I don't know. Because in different circles, different friendships over my life, I've had that reputation. And I wonder if I've shook it off. And this is rare. I don't know. just started thinking for me hearing this, it's funny.
Cause like my perception is like, because you're a white, I'm just like, there's no way it can be that bad. I don't know what it is. I don't know if this makes any sense, but literally I'm just like, okay. Like Adam's like, Oh, I'm always late. I imagine that you're like five or 10 minutes late, you know, because I'm white. Well, cause okay. Like I'm around a lot of people all the time.
Yeah.
And like,
they will be one to two hours late and won't even acknowledge it oh so it's a it's a very different thing and like that's intense getting out the door is uh is a challenge and like so like whatever you're saying i'm just like yeah it can't be that bad it can't be that bad okay i'm a i'm a white person how bad can it be don't worry maybe again relative to your community maybe it's you're the worst but maybe if you ever come here you're gonna be like early to everything probably
Oh, nice. Okay. Well, that's good. Just saying community or just kind of talking about past friends. Do you have a hard time... This just came up last night. I was talking with Casey about it. I have a string of very close friendships over my adult life. And even going beyond that, like going back into school, like high school or whatever. I have always had a really close friend and...
There's like three or four of them that I never thought I wouldn't stay in touch. But it's so hard to like... try to stay in touch or even like want to respond when they try to stay in touch. Cause it just feels like this very heavy thing that like, if I'm going to talk to you at all, are we going to have to have like a really close relationship?
Like we used to, I say really close, like whatever is really close as I can be to somebody. It just feels like too much effort to even consider the relationship because we used to be close.
Does that make sense? I feel like I've been thinking about the exact same thing lately. I had a... So I have a similar situation. Like, I have... I have a friend that... I mean, it's a group of friends, but I'm thinking one specifically that... And I've known all these people since I was, like, in middle school. So people that, you know, I've known for a very long time.
One of them in particular... was at least particularly close with. So he's having his first baby next month.
Yeah.
And I didn't hear about it until like a month ago. Oh. So it was just like, and it's not like, it's like the reality of, it's not like a rude thing at all. It's just like, we don't have, we just kind of lost any natural way that we natural situations that we would cross pads. Um, so I did, I did message him and we ended up, you know, he ended up calling me and we talked for a little bit, but yeah,
Yeah, there's just this thing like if you're not basically talking every single week, it just becomes, like you said, this heavy thing where it's like it's very formalized way of communicating. And it's like one person saying a bunch of things about their life. And you're just like, oh, cool. Oh, nice. Great. And then it's your turn. Then you say a bunch of things about your life.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's just not the way that. you know people hang out and it's it's really sad uh and i guess it's just a reality of getting older and like going through different phases of your life but uh wow, like I just never really thought that this was a thing that would happen.
Yeah. It feels like this graveyard of past relationships, but like they're still alive and you still could like stay in touch kind of, but it just feels like, I don't know, like it's never gonna happen. And I don't know if I want it to happen. Like, I feel like if I was in a room with any one of them, It would immediately be like it used to be, and it would feel... You know what I mean?
But it's like we don't live near each other, or if we do, we're just living very different lives. Yeah, like you said, if we don't talk every week, it's just very hard to imagine still having... That friendship. I don't know. It's weird. It's kind of weird. Yeah, I think like you, I just never expected it to happen.
I don't know what I expected, but all those people I would have thought I'd be close with forever. And I never would have thought I'd have like a handful of them because I've just been alive long enough. Yeah.
You know what I mean? Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I, I'm actually, now that you mentioned it, I am going through a second phase of that. It's a, so it is like a handful. So I like my, my friends from school growing up and dealing with that, you know, kind of not being as close anymore. And now that I'm in Miami, it's all my New York friends.
I'm going through a second phase with that as well. It's almost the exact same thing. It's not like they're still in New York. They all moved too, so they're having this problem with each other as well, I imagine. It's funny because literally all they would take to fix it is to turn it into this thing where I'm messaging them every day, even just a little.
There are people I message every single day or at least a couple times a week. It's just that... there's no trigger or like my brain doesn't think to message them. Like when I see something that I want to share with someone, like they've just rotated out of the set of people that I share stuff with. So yeah, Yeah, all it would take would be for me to actively remember to do that.
But as little as it is, it just doesn't happen.
That's the weird part. I think that's what I'm really hung up on in the conversation with Casey last night. It's like, it really wouldn't take that much. It's not that much effort. Why don't I put it forward? Because it's really like, it just feels like the easiest thing in the world. And those were valuable relationships I had. But I just continue to not do it and almost actively avoid it.
I don't know. It's interesting.
Yeah.
Just one of those things about getting older, I guess. A lot of bad things about getting older. They say, like, time goes faster the older you get. Have you heard that? I don't want to talk about that.
Okay. I hate that concept. I just don't want to think about it.
Okay. Well, the one thing I was going to say is it just already feels like it's going so fast. So, like, how can it go faster? Anyway, I'll stop.
Both Liz and my mom also said this, and I think it's true because I've experienced a year that was like this. They say time goes slower if you do a lot of different things every year. Yes. And we had this past year, we did a lot of different things that we don't normally do. And it feels like a very long year.
Like we're coming up to the end of the year and I'm like, wow, like I can't believe that React Miami was this year. That feels like... Five years ago. There were so many things that we did this year, so it felt like a slower year than the year before.
I do remember now, Casey and I have talked about this as an antidote to our kids just disappearing from our lives and it going so fast. It's like... Things like a year feels slow.
If you can, if you have like a lot of memories and you don't really make memories unless you break out of your normal routine, like basically you have to like have experiences, do things that are different out of the normal. So the more, yeah, like you said, the more you can do that, you have these markers that kind of like stretch back over the year and it slows that year down.
It makes it feel like, I don't know. It's the whole thing. It's, I guess it's just perception and retrospect. It's not really feeling slower in the moment. It's about like, Feeling like, I don't know, you lived a year worthwhile at the end of it, I guess. Not just feeling like, I can't believe it's Christmas again. It's not having that feeling. Yeah.
I can't believe Dallas was just, what, two months ago? That feels like so long ago.
It does feel like a long time ago. And now we got New York. New York. People still don't know what we're doing, right? I know what we're doing, but people don't.
Did you see the disaster? Yeah. That happened? No. There is a conflict. Oh, no.
Wait, what?
The JS Nation speaker dinner is at the same time. Oh, no. What channel would I see this in? Well, there's a Sentry channel that Wes messaged me about it. So I emailed the JS Nation person. Let's see what they say. I think we'd lose like five people if every single one of them decides to go.
Five people? How many did we have? Did we have backups?
We didn't even have enough for teams of five. We had enough for teams of four. So we're going to have to... It's two teams, right? There's going to be teams involved.
And it was two teams of four. Are we on any of the teams? What are we doing? What do I have to do?
Nothing? We're going to be on one team, but there's going to be... We need three teams besides us. Sorry, we need four teams besides us. Okay. So that was 20 people. If we do teams of four, I think it's totally fine. That's down to 16. Yeah, we're at like... If every single one of them decides not to go, we're at like 13 or 14. So we'll figure it out. It just would be a bummer. Bummer.
Well... I did send an email and I was like... You know, I said, like, no, we could give all the speakers free tickets to come and all of that. But I was also like, hey, the speakers are really excited to go to our thing. So they're probably not going to go to. I didn't say that explicitly, but yeah, you kind of hinted at it. She puts that together.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hope that works out. Yeah. Because that's I just saw the list of names. That'd be a bummer.
In the back of my head, I was like, one thing is going to go wrong. There's going to be one thing that goes along.
Yeah, I guess it's gone too smoothly to this point.
And then here it is. Here it is.
Just shout out real quick to Liz for being awesome and on top of all the things. She's doing such a good job.
Yeah, this is what she's built for.
MVP. When's she going to organize an Ozarkian paintball match? Because that would be a lot of fun. The podcast will have a little sneak peek on that one. They'll know what's coming. When we're like, we're doing an event in the Ozarks, they'll know. There's nothing else we would do here.
AJ heard about this and he was telling me that, you know, it seems like AJ is someone that is very good at hobbies. And I learned that he has...
a he used to have a hobby used to be on a paintball team that basically went like national pro or something whoa okay yeah he's gonna send me a picture all pro aj look at him i was saying okay we need to do some kind of thing where someone jumps out of a plane related to terminal and like yeah he's gonna do that for us they can do that for us you know yeah yeah we got a guy
No, I was asking him what the laws were on... Base jumping? Like, what is the law? Like, can you just jump off of a plane anywhere? Like, can someone jump out of a plane and land in my backyard?
Like, there has to be some kind of... Well, I'm trying to think of precedent. Like, are there ways that the government tries to keep us from killing ourselves accidentally?
It's not really killing ourselves. It's just like landing in the middle of the city is sketchy, right? But he was saying that basically it's if you meet certain certifications, which are quite hard to meet, you can basically do whatever you want. Wow. So I think we could have someone jump out and land in my backyard, you know, if you name that precisely.
That would be amazing. How funny would that be? There's something about that just remind me of drones. What's going on with drones these days? I feel like drones have been around a long time. And like, has the technology gotten better? Drones. I mean, can you buy really amazing drones now? And are there laws around flying drones? I don't know. I've heard things about that.
Did you see Anduril's new drone product? Who? No. Obviously not. I don't even know who that is. Okay, so you know how Palmer Luckey, the Oculus founder, founded a military company? No, but I believe you. Okay. Okay. He did. It's called Anduril. Okay. Anduril? Anduril. It's the name of Aragorn's sword.
Aragorn? Okay. Oh, Lord of the Rings. I actually know that.
Yeah.
Oh, his sword is named Anduril. I think I knew that, but you're saying it funny.
Anduril.
You're saying it like somebody who has only ever read it.
somehow i don't know i definitely have only i've read return of the king i've mostly watched it i'm sorry i don't i don't have a native middle earth accent well i just couldn't tell if you're saying andrew or andrew andrew andrew i've never said it out loud i think that's the issue yeah i guess why would you why would you say aragorn's sword out loud you know like where would that come up
They make products for the military, like missiles and things that blow up, but they put out product reels. It's like an Apple product. It's a totally different vibe. It's not the Apple vibe, but it's that level of production where it seems like it's a consumer product. But they're selling these drones now, again, to the military, that can blow up.
They have all these crazy capabilities of being super precise and They do these dive bombs and they blow up right above the target to the shockwave. Yikes. It's at maximum lethality. So yeah, drone tech seems pretty legit. Have you seen all of the... Pretty much all these big events have started to replace fireworks with those crazy drones.
Yeah, like synchronized drone shows. So I knew about that. I knew China was doing something at the Olympics several years ago. So I figured, has that made it into consumer stuff? Can I buy a drone show if I want to... Hire somebody to come to a drone show at my event. That's like a thing. Yeah.
I mean, the New Year's thing we went to this past year, like in my neighborhood, dad had a drone thing going on.
So it's made it to Miami. It'll be in the Ozarks in about four or five years. Something like that. It could be you. It could be me. Maybe I'll just start a new career as a drone operator.
You can just freak out people. Just like, just start projecting really crazy shit.
Oh, they totally would think it was UFOs. I thought Starlink was UFOs when I saw it for the first time. No joke. I was in the shower and I freaked out. I was like, Casey, oh my God, what is this? There's nothing that could be that. It's gotta be. And then we looked it up. Have you seen Starlink at night? Like the big string of them?
Yeah. It's like a perfect line.
If you've never heard of that or seen it, it's like, what else could be flying together like that? Like nothing moves that. It's not a plane. It's not planes. I don't think. It's not shooting stars all synchronized together.
What's crazy is it's made by humans. I know. It's a thing that's made by humans.
Yeah, wild. I know drones were really influential in like the Ukraine, Russia conflicts, ongoing conflicts.
I think after that, the Ukraine, Russia thing, I really understood how much of war is like just economic things. It's like you imagine that you're trying to win a battle. So you just like send in your forces. But it's this deep calculation of like, this tank costs X million dollars. If we put it in, it takes out this other thing, but that thing costs less than the tank.
So like, is it worth, like, I think drones just make those calculations really crazy because you're risking a multimillion dollar thing and someone with like a thousand dollar drone can spend a thousand dollars and like take away millions from you, right? So yeah, the whole asymmetry thing is pretty wild. Yeah.
Yeah, I guess the reason I brought up drones, it just feels like one of those things that it was like 10 years ago or whatever when people got the first consumer drones. And I just remember thinking like, man, someday they're just going to be flying all over the place. And they're not. So I just wondered like, why? Is it just kind of a novelty? Is there a reason to own one as a person?
Like, I want to own one. You know me. I'm like a... I buy a lot of things. I'm a consumer at heart. I don't own one, but I have no reason to own one. That's the only reason I don't.
I think for people in filmmaking, it just totally... I mean, filmmaking in the loose term, like just people doing... Yeah. Twitch streamers?
Programming Twitch streamers?
Okay. Well, it's funny because I did have this thought where in every movie you've ever seen, there's always like an overhead shot. There's always overhead shots all the time. Yeah. Yeah. What did they do before drones existed? Did they just buy stock footage? But that's so much crazier. It's like so loud. And it's like rent a helicopter to get this overhead shot.
I mean, for movies, I think. Are you saying for lower budget stuff?
I mean, even for a movie, it's like. Just to have like a three second overhead shot to set up a scene.
Yeah.
They had to rent a helicopter and do that. That's like, I mean, that's a lot.
I watched all the Lord of the Rings special footage in high school, and I'm pretty sure they use helicopters. Yeah. Right. Today, would they just do that with drones then, I guess?
Yeah.
Like, is there any loss of quality by using a drone? Probably not.
No, they use a drone. I got my... I think I posted a picture, right?
My small rig thing. Oh, yeah. It's like an iPhone harness thing. So we can just film stuff.
It's so well thought out. Like, I mean, people in the podcast can't see. But this is like a thing to put my iPhone into. And it like... Has handles and has a built-in SSD in the handle. Oh, built-in SSD in the handle. That's cool. Oh, man, this thing is so up. Okay, so see this? Yeah.
You can quickly reorient it to have different angles and stuff. Oh, nice. And people can see this if they want to go to YouTube, by the way. Our podcast is on YouTube. I don't know if you want to watch us talk.
This handle right here, here's what's crazy. Inside of it... You can open it like this, and it has a SSD slot.
Wow. Room for an SSD. That's brilliant. That's a small rig thing you said?
Yeah, yeah. So I put that in there, and then it plugs into my phone, and I just record straight to that. That's pretty awesome. That level of creativity, there's a million little details in here like that. The handles rotate, so you can get different angles. But the reason I brought this up is this is in partnership with some guy named Brandon Lee.
He's an independent filmmaker, so he always makes it. He'll do a two- or three-minute thing that he films with this. It's crazy how creative they get like they attach this they like create like a they want to like overhead chase footage so they put it on like a zip line and they just let it go. And it, you know, follows the people. Um, they're like, throw it over stuff.
Like they'll do pretty, pretty creative things. And yeah, it like comes out.
Has anyone made like, like a movie, like a bit, like not a big movie, but like a movie with an iPhone.
What did you, did you not see this, the thing going around? Do you know that series, that zombie series, uh, 28 hours later, 28 days later, uh, 28 Days Later sounds familiar. Okay, so... Is it a movie? Or is it a series? Yeah, it's a zombie... It's a zombie... Originally a zombie movie, 28 Hours Later, which is like, you know, the idea is 28 hours after a zombie thing.
Okay, that's what I remember, yeah. And the sequel is 28 Days Later, which is like, you know, more time has passed. Uh-huh. And now they're doing like 28 Months Later or something. Mm. And it was going around because the whole movie is filmed on an iPhone 15. Yeah. And I was like, wow, that's so crazy. Cause it's, it's not like an indie.
It's like a, in the theaters movie. Yeah. It's like a hundred million dollars budget, like something.
Yeah.
What? But here's the funny part, right?
Okay. The first thing I did was like, I want to see them using it.
Yeah.
So I was like looking at pictures and I was like, I can't find any pictures of them using the iPhone. Then I realized that the thing they had in a tripod, which was this giant freaking device, there's an iPhone in there, but it's like, it has like... So they use like crazy cinematography lenses and stuff on an iPhone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's some company that...
It's like thousands and thousands of dollars of gear on top of the iPhone.
So it's like, okay. Yeah. It was like guys walking around, hold my phones. Like, yeah, it's not that.
So it's not that. So it's like, okay. Like interesting. You're basically, you just built a camera. You built your own camera. And like, it's, it's still impressive.
Like, yeah, I guess because it doesn't have like, I don't know. I don't know a lot about cameras, but like, I feel like how do you get the real depth of field without... Is that just the lens?
That's where it's weak.
That's where it's weak, right? Because it doesn't have like a shutter and an aperture and all that.
I don't know how... The lens can still help with that, but... Yeah, there's definitely certain limitations of what you can and can't do. And I watched a bunch of videos of professional cinematographers like... explaining how far they can go with the iPhone and like where the limits are.
Okay. So people have broke it down. Yeah.
And someone actually went and like did a bunch of shots, like identical shots with both compared to it. Yeah. And it's like, and even, even he said like, technically I'm going to prefer all my camera gear. But the gap is really small. Yeah. And he was like, especially going back to when I was starting out, this is like a million times better than anything I'd ever had like earlier in my career.
That's wild. Yeah. The camera stuff obviously like looked better, but man, like it still looks very professional, the iPhone.
That's wild. Do they even make like cameras that aren't really nice cameras? Do they make like point and shoots anymore? Is there any reason to buy those? Like I would think there's no market. If your phone has a better camera. I mean, that used to be a thing, you know, like camcorders and cameras that were all like varying price points. I had that growing up. Yeah. Like a digital camera.
It had a little like zoom out lens on it.
Still remember the sound it made? The little beep sound when you press a button? Yeah. No more. Doesn't exist.
Doesn't exist. It's kind of wild. It's kind of wild to imagine like life as an adult now without an iPhone or without just a smartphone, I guess. Can you imagine like navigation? That's the one I always think of. Like when we drive somewhere, there's so many little things.
I've always been horrible at navigating. So that's huge for me. Yeah.
Yeah. They were simpler times. Hey, we got an election coming up. That's exciting. Yeah. I'm voting for the first time in my whole life. No, you're not. What? Yeah. Yeah. What are you, 20? What are you talking about?
Well, I wasn't a citizen until like right after the previous election.
Wait, what? Yeah. I'm sorry. How did I not know this about you? We're 113 episodes in. How did I not know that you're only like recently?
It's confusing because I've been in the U.S. for 25, 26 years or something.
2020?
Like, how many years in? So, like, 20 years into being here? Yeah, I could have done it a long time ago.
I just didn't. Like, I've had a permanent resident green card for a very, very long time, since I was, like, 12 or 13.
Oh, so it was just more like a formality? It wasn't like you were waiting in line for 20 years? No, no, no, no. Oh, okay. It's like getting a driver's license. The kids who are, like, waiting until they're 17. You're like, what are you thinking? Why aren't you driving? Yeah, it's exactly like that.
Yeah. It's exactly like that. But I mean, to be fair, I did apply for it. Like it did take me several years because one, I think this was right when Trump got elected. They slowed, like the process just slowed down a ton. Yeah. And they made a mistake and rejected my application. And when they make a mistake, it already takes them like a year to get back to you.
And then it takes like so much, it takes so much time to like appeal it, then to acknowledge that the mistake and you know, all that stuff. So yeah, it took me super long. Um, but when I got sworn in as a citizen, uh, it was like during the end, it was like during COVID, like not like deep in it. So they brought us all into a room and it was like, it was so weird.
Cause it was an, a giant room with like a grid of chairs, but each chair was like three feet apart from the other one that we were all just like sitting in like, Oh, cause he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, and the judge wasn't physically there. He was doing it over zoom. But what that meant was he could do, he was doing like three of them at a time.
There was like the one in Manhattan and the one in upstate New York and one in, uh, He was doing three simultaneously. And I'm like, this just... You just increase efficiency by 3x minimum because now there's judges literally in three places at once.
Did they stick with that, I wonder? Did they abandon that policy? It seems more efficient. Yeah, it's such a formality. But you got to be sworn in as a citizen. I don't think I got sworn in. I was just born.
To be honest, I think every person should have to do that at some point.
It sounds kind of cool. It's like a moment where you're like, okay, I'll do it. I'll be a citizen and I'll be a good one.
Yeah. They make you swear all these things. And it's so, it sounds so intense too. Like, you know, I love like dramatic stuff like that. It's like, I, I like forsake any allegiance to any foreign Prince. It's like, it's like lines like that. It's like, it's really intense. I commit to doing that.
non-combatant military duties because i actually don't think they like make you commit to doing military duties yeah military stuff they say like they say you commit to doing at least non-combatant military duty huh there's a little little disclaimer on there were there any you had to think about were there any that you're like oh do i want to do i want to swear to this they're like you have to accept next.js as the best react framework meta framework
Well, the one that gives you pause, the ultimate downside of being a U.S. citizen is no matter where you go in the world, you owe the U.S. government taxes.
I was going to guess taxes. I thought a moment there, I thought I should get to guess. But that would have been my guess. Yeah.
Not every place is like that. Right. Like imagine you leave the U.S. and you go.
Yeah. But America, if you're a citizen, like to not pay U.S. taxes, you just have to renounce your citizenship. Right.
Which people do, like there's like billionaires that do that.
Yeah, do they just say, I renounce my citizenship? Or there's like some paperwork probably? What is that from? There's something, is that Arrested Development where? I declare bankruptcy. I declare bankruptcy, yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Scott, yeah. I declare bankruptcy. I declare bankruptcy.
that's how it feels like it should work yeah i renounced it did you hear me uh so you were sworn in i can't believe you've never voted this is all like i like i knew you weren't born here but for some reason i just thought you've always been a citizen i don't know why like why i thought you just got it i don't know this is news to me the timeline of dax and his citizenship.
So you were a citizen of India.
That's right. Okay, here's another funny dynamic. So the U.S. does not recognize dual citizenship. Oh, really? It's this funny thing where you're like, what is dual citizenship? it's just one country being like, ah, it's cool. You know, the other countries have to say it's, yeah, it's cool. The U S does not recognize dual citizenship.
So you basically say like, I like renounce any citizenship, whatever.
But if the other country does recognize, we're fine.
Yeah. So they have something called India is still like, you're cool. Yeah. That's how they have something called an OSI overseas citizen of India, which I need to apply for. Um, and that lets me, you know, worst case, if something horrible happens, I can go. Yeah. on property there or whatever.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why? It's so funny to me. It's such an American thing to be like, we don't recognize dual citizenship. Like you don't need to, it doesn't matter. Like if the other country does, then like what, you know what I mean?
Like just like, but like technically what is your stance? Your stance is you're an American and you shouldn't be. And that's it. You know, you shouldn't be half in half out, which I kind of agree with. Like, I don't, uh, I get it. I think that's maybe the right policy to have. If you're,
the country everyone's immigrating to yeah yeah if you're the country where everyone's leaving you're like you'll just do whatever you can to still like have some kind of tie right yeah obviously india a lot of people from india moved to the u.s so it's good for india to like latch on to them somehow yeah you know how there's like a subculture for everything and like there's people who are really into like every most obscure thing you could ever think of yeah
Do you ever just, like, predict those? Or you just, like, can imagine this whole thing exists, but you're not going to look into it. You just know it does. Like, I know there are people who compete with, like, how many citizenships they have. I've never heard this before. I'm sure there's a Reddit.
I'm not going to look it up, but it's just kind of fun to think, like, there's a guy that has, like, eight citizenships and he's, like, the record holder. Just, like, the languages. Like, that's very similar to, like, I know two dozen languages.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're in Europe...
uh because now they have the eu citizenship thing which is uh so convenient like i'm imagining how bad it was before imagine if you had to deal with it felt like international travel every time you like left missouri just like a different state in the u.s that would be tough yeah because i leave my state all the time i mean you left this week didn't you i guess i did yeah okay yeah
I do travel a little bit. That was kind of a dumb joke. I used to not. I think I was like 18 before I left the state of Missouri. Isn't that sad?
Oh, you're one of those?
I'm one of those. You never saw the ocean until... No, I guess I wasn't 18.
You were already an adult. You must have driven to Florida at some point.
No, that's not true. We went to Florida. I don't know what I'm talking about. I must have just imagined myself as a... He was making up some kind of tragic story for yourself. Yeah. Uh, I definitely have never gone overseas and I've only really gone. Wait, have I gone overseas? I've gone to Mexico. That's not over in a sea. Have I never gone? I've never gone over a sea.
Wait, you've never been to Europe? You've never been to?
No, none of them. That's crazy.
Have you been to, what other countries have you been to?
There's DevRel's that go to Europe like every other weekend.
Yeah.
You've been to Canada? Yeah. I've been into the waters of Canada.
What does that mean?
In Buffalo. Oh, like Niagara Falls? Niagara Falls, yes. The waters of Canada.
That's a freaking river.
I've been to Niagara Falls, which is kind of Canada, and I've been to Mexico. So that's it. North America. I've only been to North America.
Wow. North American AF. AF.
You were like born in another country. You had to be sworn in as a citizen. That's amazing.
Yeah, I know. I had to swim here.
Swim here. You're so cultured.
There was there's some tech stuff we had. Next Conf was this past week. I can't believe we didn't live stream go over like live stream. Well, after that disaster last time.
Was it a disaster?
I forget. Remember, you couldn't figure out the layout. We kept putting ourselves way too much over. And TJ was going nuts in the chat.
Yeah, TJ, you did not love that.
Never going to forget that.
What did they announce? What kind of new goodies do we have to play with?
There was a slide in the keynote that had Open Next on it.
Oh, for real? Yeah.
Oh, this is cool. They gave two Open Next contributors $2,000 each.
Wow. Look at that. Is that more than you've ever given any Open Next contributors? Not to throw any shade, but... Yeah, it's definitely more. I'm just messing. I mean, I believe you, but I'm not trying to, like, shoot you down. You guys are playing nice. You and Vercel sitting in a tree. Who knew?
I know. Look at that. Who knew? They published SST examples in their repo and their docs, and they're going to, like, publish... They published, like, not just us, like, Render, Netlify, like, a bunch of different examples. Netlify announced that they're joining OpenNex as well. Wow. It's a movement. Yeah. So look at that.
It's like someone at Vercel was sitting in a meeting with some higher-ups, and they were like, have we tried just being nice to these people? Have we tried that? And everybody was like, huh.
And it worked.
And then it worked. It's amazing.
After exhausting all of their options, they just went with this one.
We're not going to win in a flame war, but what if we're just nice? What if we just work with them?
cool so that's uh that's going on i still think next year sucks just had to get that on the record yeah i know because i i like want to do something with that uh with that still dray so i don't know if you know that dr dray still dray yeah he has like this whole yeah yeah oh yeah like because because everyone sees me being nice to vercell and they're like oh Like, have you changed?
Like, what is this? This is not what we're here for. But listen, I'm still me. I still think Next.js sucks and it's for babies.
It's for babies. Oh, it's funny. It's for literal babies. What's it like to be abrasive on the internet? I just couldn't do it. I couldn't be. I mean, like, I can be abrasive, but I couldn't be, like, openly in conflict with something.
It would just hurt. It's weird. You can just turn off the app and it's like, it's like nothing is happening. That's crazy. It just, it just, it just is not real life. And yeah, I can be abrasive and just, it's not open my Twitter and it's like, it doesn't exist. It like literally just doesn't exist. So it's like this universe that literally exists in my pocket and nowhere else.
Okay. So that reminds me, uh, like how I've not been on Twitter really. And something happened last night. So if this person listens to the podcast, I love you. I don't mean this in a negative way, but someone actually messaged my wife on Instagram, someone that I was close with in the past that I haven't kept in touch with.
Just the whole conversation at the beginning of this where I'm bad at staying in touch. They were concerned about me, and the reason they cited was that I haven't been posting on X. Okay. I just thought that was so funny. Like they're concerned with me because I'm not posting on X. And I just think like, isn't that kind of backward?
Like if I were posting a lot on X, I feel like be concerned that I'm too online, but like, I don't know. He doesn't seem like he's doing okay. He's not posting on X. I don't know.
It's funny. The truth is exactly the opposite. I'm like, Oh, Adam's life is going well now. And he's just like, you know, He doesn't like need all this stuff anymore.
I feel like if you were to like chart it, like X, Y axis, the better my life is going, the less you will see me on X. I promise you there's a future where I'm like retired and not doing anything technology related. And I will never literally open the app again. And that's, I think, why I'm not really getting on it these days. It's like, I just have no desire to read any technical anything.
Like anything anybody has to say, even you. I mean, I just like, it's not that it's not interesting. I'm sure it's interesting. It just doesn't interest me at all. And that's the only thing I have on Twitter. Like, I don't have any other circles on Twitter that are like other types of content. So when I open Twitter, it's just a bunch of tech stuff. And I just don't care.
I don't know what happened. I still love programming. It's my job. But for some reason, like most of all, maybe this is bad for our podcast. I don't know. Most all tech stuff just doesn't really do it for me anymore. I don't know if it'll come back, but for now...
It's gone. I don't even see any... I mean, I told you, I've shifted to read-only on Twitter. Sorry, write-only. It's funny because you'd think it's read-only. No, it's write-only. No reading. Only writing. Yeah, I actually don't really know what type of stuff is going on.
It's not even like I'm not interested in the recurring themes or anything. It's just normal stuff that... people would want to share because it's cool. They're working on this thing or this thing is interesting to them. It's just, for some reason, it's really not interesting to me. And I don't know what happened and when.
Because I always imagine there's lots of developers that don't get on Twitter. And they don't read Hacker News. They just like their job, but they don't necessarily... obsess or dive deep on all that's going on in the world of technology. I feel like that's happened to me. And I don't know what that means for like, uh, I don't know.
It means you've peaked at them all downhill from here.
I've peaked.
Yeah.
I was thinking more in terms of like the podcast. Cause I do realize like people might listen to us because they care that we talk about technology. I'm not saying I don't like to talk about technology with you. Cause it is kind of interesting, especially stuff that's not like programming more like, uh, just things that affect my life, like how technology is changing the world around us.
That stuff's way more interesting to me than like, I don't know, Svelte 5 is out. I'm like, I don't know. What does Svelte 5 do? I just don't care anymore.
I just don't. Yeah, it's funny because I think it's a combination of you don't care and it's hard for me to separate because I think I'm kind of in a similar place, but I perceive it as nothing is happening.
maybe stuff is happening and i just don't care maybe maybe that's what it is maybe there's like there's not enough big changes it's too incremental and i'm just oh wait 12 five coming out that's a literal thing you weren't that wasn't like a made-up example i literally saw that when i opened twitter and it's another example of like i used to care about this stuff i used to like i think i did see that a couple days ago and i just didn't even bother looking into it
Yeah, I have no idea what it is. And we use Svelte, like literally. It's all over the code base. I don't even know what version we use, to be honest. I've become that person.
I'm that developer that's like... Oh, you guys use Svelte for content.
Completely checked out. I just don't even know what Svelte 5 is. I'm sure it's great.
Oh, that's the one with all the signal stuff, I think. Cool. Or runes or whatever. Yeah, so I was saying this to somebody else.
earlier this week um i've been on like a several year journey ever since i left elixir to figure out my tools for the things that i build yeah and i think that journey has come to an end basically like basically everything is solved where day to day my pain point is like just styling and like making stuff look and feel good and everything outside of that
is very good and like i don't really have significant problems with it so i think that's also contributing to my lack of interest because yeah Everything's hit my bar and all the problems that I was looking to solve are basically solved.
Does that make you want to build more things, like have more irons in the fire just so you can use your... Because I feel like that's a superpower to get to the place where you're not fiddling with your stack anymore and you're not unhappy with this part of your app development process.
I feel like I'd want to just build all the things if I felt like... I guess you still have to do all the front end and styling and all that part that eats up time and cycles.
Well, that was the context in which I was talking about this. I was like, I'm way more interested in actually building stuff now than I am improving my tools.
Your process, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Things have gotten decent. There's one or two things I still need to build. I keep begging people to build it, but no one will do it. Like a tool?
You're gonna give us a little inside scoop or are you just gonna hold it to yourself?
I posted this the other day. The last thing I'm missing is a job library for just like the JavaScript ecosystem.
We've talked about this before.
Yeah, so I keep being like, someone build this. If you build it, literally, you will get millions of downloads because it's so needed. Yeah.
I don't know.
Are you going to build it?
Are you going to build it?
People have enough conviction around it. Yeah, so I'm going to do it. So I'm reworking the console right now so that it uses less AWS-y patterns so that it can run in other places because people need to self-host it.
in aws but also in other places yeah uh and the key thing that's missing is being able to just do async work without relying on sqs and the lambda or something yeah yeah five flare doesn't have code build i guess yeah no i just mean the general like event stuff like like kicking off an event okay so i'm building something that
it's an adapter thing so you can have it backed by postgres or mysql or sqs if you like you know have that available um okay yeah cool that's one thing that's like the last so it'll just be like an it'll be like an sst thing or it'll be like a dad no it's just going to be like a library i'm like i see we'll probably have nice support for it but like a normal library that really should have existed i don't know why
I don't know what people are doing. You got to do async work and you're not using... What are you doing?
There's SaaS tools, probably.
Lots of them. Yeah, I know. Every time I bring this up, everyone's like, why don't you just use Ingest? And then they link me to the Ingest self-hosting thing. And I'm like, I'm not fucking going to deploy this three-node architecture so I can kick off the two background jobs that I need to run.
Have you come up with a name yet? That's the hardest part of any new library or project.
I actually want to build it entirely using AI or using AI in a very different way. I think I mentioned this already. I gave a trial run of doing this already for this using Bolt.
um which is like this ai thing that from the payment no no there's a payment company called bolt the funny one um this is a new product yeah i need them to add a few more features but when they do i think i should be able to like build up because i'm trying to port an elixir library oh okay like elixir has their their job library obon is perfect and i just want to port it over and like support adapters yeah and yeah the lm was doing a great job at it and i was giving it feedback on design things i didn't like and
Yeah, I want to try building like a real library with something like this.
Yeah, okay. If you're taking any input on names, have you considered Aragorn? Or what was his sword's name?
Andoril.
Andoril. It's taken in the military space, but I feel like on the consumer side, fair game. And drill. I'll consider it. And drill.
And drill. What if it's like and drill? Visually, I think it looks like a fantastic name. When I read it, it sounds great. Now saying it out loud, I'm like, this is kind of awkward to say.
Yeah. That's the thing about like coming up with a name. You have to have a domain that works. It has to sound good and read good and look good. There are like all these facets.
And SEO good.
SEO good. Yeah. There's a lot of, I hate naming things. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. I would have so many projects if naming wasn't hard.
Yeah, the ultimate name is just a random sound that has never been made before.
Yeah, but then I feel like those just feel so forced to, like... Because there's only so many good sounds left, too. A lot of them aren't taken because they're awful. Like Dorf. School block. It is a new sound. You're right. Maybe just don't. Dorf.io. With a PH at the end. It's like Dorf. That's not supposed to be a sound in English. It's just not one we make.
Are you ever going to do another side project ever again? That's a great question because I have done so good at not having side projects. I don't think I will because... Terminal is a side project. Terminal is a side project. Terminal is kind of my side project. I mean, like... I don't need anything else at this point. I feel like my plate is full and I'm happy with both of them.
They're so different. So like I could just work on stat muse by itself forever. And then when there is like something that needs to be done on terminal, it's this nice little refreshing like, oh, go Lang. That's fun. Forgot about going. Yeah, no, I think I'm good.
I write so much go.
You write so much Go.
Oh, because like the SST, CLI, yeah. I'm doing a fun thing. Did you see, you got me on Twitter, but did you see that Ghosty's going to hit 1.0? Are they going to release it publicly? Oh, no, I didn't.
Oh, everyone's going to have it? I'm going to have to find a new exclusive one.
Oh, yeah, I knew that was going to be a reaction. I knew that was going to be a reaction.
oh man i love it yeah so here's a cool you said next month what'd you say i think he said december yeah they're shooting for december but here's a cool thing that i didn't know did you know ghosty is built as not an application but as a library and an application i saw this i saw you talking with mitchell about this on twitter i did not know that
I didn't understand it. Like, even seeing you guys talk about it, I still don't really know what you guys were saying.
Well, I didn't understand it because he was like, it's a library. He mentioned that you can use it to build a multiplex. And I was like, I don't really understand this split. But then as soon as he said, it's a library and there is a front end for Mac and a front end for Linux.
Basically, the library, it's a terminal emulator in that, like, you can load a process into it and it basically has an API being like, given a 500 by 400 screen, here's what each cell should look like. So you can just take what it gives you and just paint the screen. And you don't have to know anything about it. So the front end's just like, you know.
Oh, I don't know anything about it, so that's good. Paint your thing.
Okay.
But point being, he built a terminal emulator and he's releasing it as a library too.
Okay, so is most of the ghosty effort then in the library or in the front ends?
Okay, so the front ends are... I'm sure it's both because I'm sure you want to render it efficiently and use a GPU and all that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
the terminal like processing terminal codes and like figuring out when a process emits this like you need to change this cell and update the color and then all that stuff that's in the library okay and that's amazing because i'm using a very crappy implementation of that that i found in go and i found a bunch of bugs and i patched them for the sst multiplexer uh and he made me realize like oh yeah i could
embed ghosty yeah and like i'll start the process in ghosty and ghosty will tell me oh here are the cells well here's what the cells look like i can paint that and go so sst the cli would be powered by ghost that's that's why i tweeted like Okay, so we wrapped Terraform, and now we're going to wrap Ghosty. We're just, like, following Mitchell around. He's doing all the real work.
Oh, that's funny.
Yeah. I did some more research, and I found out that there's another... There's already another C library called libvterm that I could have used if I understood any of this before. But I might try that in the meantime.
I love the... Just speaking of side projects, I love, like, Mitchell's path of... like doing this big grand thing like Terraform that's just so like influential in the industry. And then being like, now I'm going to work on a, it was just a Mac terminal emulator and going like all in. And it's like, you just see people who are really good at stuff. They're just going to make good stuff.
Like he made, really cool thing. And then he comes along and he's going to make another really cool thing. Like, everything he touches is going to be good.
I think this could be really impactful if it's adopted correctly because VS Code, for example, has a really shitty... Their built-in terminal is like... So much worse than the most of native terminals. Like I find there's so many SST multiplexer bugs in the VS code terminal, which a lot of people use, unfortunately. So if they swap to using this under the hood, couldn't improve a lot better.
You can build like a terminal on the web using it. Yeah, that breaks my brain.
Yeah.
Like, I can't really conceptualize most of these things. And you're like, multiplexer. Nope, that sounds fake. That's made up.
Hey, you use Tmux all the time, don't you?
I know, I know, I know. And, like, I kind of know, like, I could have a conversation with someone and be like, yeah, I use Ghosty as an emulator. But I don't really know what that means. I don't know what an emulator really is. I just know I could use Ghosty or I could use iTerm or, you know, Alacrity or whatever. I know what the emulators are, but I don't know why they're called emulators.
Does that make sense?
I was very confused about this until I worked on... I feel like there's so many layers.
CLIs are confusing.
Yeah. Because there's... Everything you just talked about, the emulators, but then they don't actually do anything. You're running... What are they emulating? I don't understand. The CSH inside it, probably, right? You're running like a shell. Like, what the hell is a shell?
There's a shell. How's it like an emulator? And yeah, I don't understand all the layers. Why are there so many layers?
And in the shell... You spawn a multiplexer, but the multiplexer spawns ZSH sessions inside of that.
Oh, God. Stop.
And then those start the processes. Yeah.
I'm so confused.
Yeah. Ultimately, I think the root thing is a terminal used to be a physical thing. It was a physical device.
So that's why they're called emulators. I didn't know this. So it's like they used to be the mainframe terminal. It's like a terminal station, like a place you could walk up to that's got access into the workstation thing. Yeah.
And when it had the width and the height, that was like a fixed physical width and height of the terminal.
Oh, wow, yeah.
It was something that you could like resize and whatever. Okay. Yeah. And those terminals can understand certain codes. And you've come across this for the terminals.
Yeah, ANSI codes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ANSI, ANSI codes.
ANSI codes, that's what I meant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm totally tracking. I'm right with you.
Yeah. So now we have emulators that interpret those same ANSI codes, but then they paint to a
like any kind of screen right using your graphics capabilities of your computer that's why they're called an emulator an emulator they're emulating that physical terminal okay that's cool yeah that's actually pretty cool yeah and all the clis you start just know how to emit anti anti codes yeah that's it okay and that's what our company does and that's why it's called terminal
Yeah. And terminals have two modes. Wait, what? They have two modes.
Insert and edit? No.
I forgot what the... Is it called normal mode? I don't know what the normal mode's called, but I know the fancy mode's called raw mode, and that's what we use.
Wait, what? There's raw mode and normal mode?
Yeah, we put the terminal in raw mode. Have you ever had your terminal, like, something crash, and, like, nothing in the terminal's working? Like, it's printing all these weird characters, and, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're trying to hit buttons, but just printing, like, weird codes. Uh-huh.
That's because a process put that terminal in raw mode, but then it crashed before it could reset it out of raw mode. And raw mode lets you do all kinds of crazy stuff like,
repaint stuff and like go over stuff interesting that's what we use for like a terminal.shop it's in raw mode it's been a very very educational episode of tomorrow you told me you weren't interested in tech anymore i gave you the most boring information about all this let's talk about terminals and emulators that sounds interesting it actually kind of is
All right. I got to get off here. I got to get my kid off screen time. I'm solo dadding. So if you've been listening to this whole episode, just think my kid's been watching a screen the whole time. I'm a terrible parent. I'm so sorry. Maybe he's watching our last episode. Maybe. That would not be very good for a kid. He would not enjoy that now. He's five. All right. Okay. Whatever. You're fine.
Whatever. Tough crowd. Okay. I'll see you next week. Yeah. All right. See you next. Yeah.