Vincent Cunningham

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.

A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

It's near Woodstock. It's about two hours from the city.

It's near Woodstock. It's about two hours from the city.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. Special thanks this week to Catherine Sterling, Amanda Miller, Nico Brown, and Michael Etherington.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. Special thanks this week to Catherine Sterling, Amanda Miller, Nico Brown, and Michael Etherington.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

It's pretty simple. It sucks.

It's pretty simple. It sucks.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one.

Four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

And we had special assistance this week from Jonathan Mitchell.

And we had special assistance this week from Jonathan Mitchell.

Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a Peabody Award and a DuPont Columbia Award, among others.

Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a Peabody Award and a DuPont Columbia Award, among others.

In addition to this award-winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.

In addition to this award-winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Smotrich suggested planning for this is already in motion.

Smotrich suggested planning for this is already in motion.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, and Alejandra Deckett.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, and Alejandra Deckett.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

who alters, forges, knowingly destroys, knowingly mutilates, or in any manner changes this certificate may be fined not to exceed $10,000 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

who alters, forges, knowingly destroys, knowingly mutilates, or in any manner changes this certificate may be fined not to exceed $10,000 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

That's the old man that I'd like.

That's the old man that I'd like.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Ooh.

Ooh.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Vincent Cunningham, a staff writer for The New Yorker. There have been... At least 37 different productions of Romeo and Juliet on Broadway, not to mention countless high school productions. Maybe you were in one. I don't know. But this new one by the director Sam Gold is kind of a dark, clubby, Gen Z Romeo and Juliet.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Vincent Cunningham, a staff writer for The New Yorker. There have been... At least 37 different productions of Romeo and Juliet on Broadway, not to mention countless high school productions. Maybe you were in one. I don't know. But this new one by the director Sam Gold is kind of a dark, clubby, Gen Z Romeo and Juliet.

You know, one thing that Shakespeare has in common with this is not something that I was ever primed to think about, that Shakespeare has in common with Quentin Tarantino is that they are both adept at using the stories of their time.

You know, one thing that Shakespeare has in common with this is not something that I was ever primed to think about, that Shakespeare has in common with Quentin Tarantino is that they are both adept at using the stories of their time.

This is a long way of asking what it was like working with Jeremy Strong, who appears in one of the great stories of our time, Succession, when you worked with him on Enemy of the People. You know, you work with somebody that, like, comes from a world of reference. Like, this is the guy who played Kendall Roy. Is that something that I'm using with this person?

This is a long way of asking what it was like working with Jeremy Strong, who appears in one of the great stories of our time, Succession, when you worked with him on Enemy of the People. You know, you work with somebody that, like, comes from a world of reference. Like, this is the guy who played Kendall Roy. Is that something that I'm using with this person?

Is it something that I'm trying to strip away?

Is it something that I'm trying to strip away?

Yeah, no, I was thinking about this as I watched, again, in an amazing way, those young people who were at Romeo and Juliet at the end, just, like, swarming the exits, waiting to receive Rachel and Kit. And I wondered, what came into my mind is, you know, whether there is any difference, whether there needs to be any difference, um...

Yeah, no, I was thinking about this as I watched, again, in an amazing way, those young people who were at Romeo and Juliet at the end, just, like, swarming the exits, waiting to receive Rachel and Kit. And I wondered, what came into my mind is, you know, whether there is any difference, whether there needs to be any difference, um...

between sort of the function of the audience as we classically understand it in theater and the new word that we have, which is like fandom. And whether that at all is something that sort of is in the fringes of your consciousness as you make your work. I mean, I don't think it's new at all. True.

between sort of the function of the audience as we classically understand it in theater and the new word that we have, which is like fandom. And whether that at all is something that sort of is in the fringes of your consciousness as you make your work. I mean, I don't think it's new at all. True.

Well, Sam, thank you so much for these interpretations, this work, and for talking to us. This is great. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's the director, Sam Gold, talking about the latest revival of Romeo and Juliet, which is now playing on Broadway at the Circle in the Square Theater. And that's The New Yorker Radio Hour for today. I'm Vincent Cunningham, a staff writer at The New Yorker.

Well, Sam, thank you so much for these interpretations, this work, and for talking to us. This is great. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's the director, Sam Gold, talking about the latest revival of Romeo and Juliet, which is now playing on Broadway at the Circle in the Square Theater. And that's The New Yorker Radio Hour for today. I'm Vincent Cunningham, a staff writer at The New Yorker.

And, by the way, I'm also one of the co-hosts of The New Yorker's weekly culture podcast, Critics at Large. New episodes drop every Thursday. David Remnick will be back on Friday. Thanks for listening.

And, by the way, I'm also one of the co-hosts of The New Yorker's weekly culture podcast, Critics at Large. New episodes drop every Thursday. David Remnick will be back on Friday. Thanks for listening.

It's funny that you framed the play in that way. I've always thought of Romeo and Juliet as a play about young people, but not necessarily as one for young people. There were so many, especially young women in the crowd that I went to. There was certainly, like, a sort of fan aspect of, like, we know these people. We're excited for them.

It's funny that you framed the play in that way. I've always thought of Romeo and Juliet as a play about young people, but not necessarily as one for young people. There were so many, especially young women in the crowd that I went to. There was certainly, like, a sort of fan aspect of, like, we know these people. We're excited for them.

One sort of subtext of the play was Kit Conner's triceps are very prominently displayed all play along. But, you know, it just seemed to have this, like, very populist feeling where the people in the audience are being interacted with are— Offering their emotions, their sighs, their sort of exclamations. What was your theory of audience in making this show?

One sort of subtext of the play was Kit Conner's triceps are very prominently displayed all play along. But, you know, it just seemed to have this, like, very populist feeling where the people in the audience are being interacted with are— Offering their emotions, their sighs, their sort of exclamations. What was your theory of audience in making this show?

It's as if the teens from Euphoria decided that they had to do Shakespeare, and this is what they came up with. The two stars are Rachel Ziegler, who you probably know from the latest movie version of West Side Story, and Kit Conner, who's from the teen Netflix hit Heartstopper.

It's as if the teens from Euphoria decided that they had to do Shakespeare, and this is what they came up with. The two stars are Rachel Ziegler, who you probably know from the latest movie version of West Side Story, and Kit Conner, who's from the teen Netflix hit Heartstopper.

Othello, Macbeth, King Lear, Hamlet, and now Romeo and Juliet. And I... has this been a project for you? Because you've also done, you've worked on Ibsen, you've worked on other things. But has this Shakespeare sort of visitation for you? Do you conceive of it as one project?

Othello, Macbeth, King Lear, Hamlet, and now Romeo and Juliet. And I... has this been a project for you? Because you've also done, you've worked on Ibsen, you've worked on other things. But has this Shakespeare sort of visitation for you? Do you conceive of it as one project?

Yes, sorry.

Yes, sorry.

Does the makeup of that ensemble, who's in it, what kind of ideas and physicality and everything that they bring, is that something that develops in conjunction with that ensemble? Or do you... as a director, show up with a concept. I want to try this thing. Let's see how this works. How does the idea develop? The thing that makes, I don't know, your Macbeth different than other Macbeths?

Does the makeup of that ensemble, who's in it, what kind of ideas and physicality and everything that they bring, is that something that develops in conjunction with that ensemble? Or do you... as a director, show up with a concept. I want to try this thing. Let's see how this works. How does the idea develop? The thing that makes, I don't know, your Macbeth different than other Macbeths?

We talked already about notions of sort of what is the popular or what is the sort of the broad audience. You mentioned earlier the Worcester Group, which is this downtown New York experimental avant-garde theater company. Another – I don't want to say benefit that they have, but – a particularity is the idea of a small audience that's coming for something that is self-consciously an experiment.

We talked already about notions of sort of what is the popular or what is the sort of the broad audience. You mentioned earlier the Worcester Group, which is this downtown New York experimental avant-garde theater company. Another – I don't want to say benefit that they have, but – a particularity is the idea of a small audience that's coming for something that is self-consciously an experiment.

Yeah. And you working this stuff out on Broadway, which is a very different notion of what it means to be a director, a very different notion of audience, very different prerogatives. How does it feel to do all the things that you're talking about on Broadway, which is the broadest audience possible?

Yeah. And you working this stuff out on Broadway, which is a very different notion of what it means to be a director, a very different notion of audience, very different prerogatives. How does it feel to do all the things that you're talking about on Broadway, which is the broadest audience possible?

I wanted to talk to Sam Gold partly just because I really admire his work, but also because I always have this question when someone does Romeo and Juliet, and the question is, why now? Gold has famously directed five of Shakespeare's great tragedies, and it seems that he's kind of working through something about Shakespeare in public in front of all of us.

I wanted to talk to Sam Gold partly just because I really admire his work, but also because I always have this question when someone does Romeo and Juliet, and the question is, why now? Gold has famously directed five of Shakespeare's great tragedies, and it seems that he's kind of working through something about Shakespeare in public in front of all of us.

Just because they're not wearing the frills or whatever does not mean that you have therefore sort of desecrated the play.

Just because they're not wearing the frills or whatever does not mean that you have therefore sort of desecrated the play.

that production was born in the mind of Ibsen. Exactly.

that production was born in the mind of Ibsen. Exactly.

That's the director, Sam Gold, talking about the new Broadway production of Romeo and Juliet. We'll be right back in a moment.

That's the director, Sam Gold, talking about the new Broadway production of Romeo and Juliet. We'll be right back in a moment.

I'm Vincent Cunningham, a staff writer here at The New Yorker, and I've been talking with the director, Sam Gold, about this latest new production of Romeo and Juliet. We'll continue our conversation now. Does staging something in the round change your whole conception visually as a director? I've always wondered, yeah.

I'm Vincent Cunningham, a staff writer here at The New Yorker, and I've been talking with the director, Sam Gold, about this latest new production of Romeo and Juliet. We'll continue our conversation now. Does staging something in the round change your whole conception visually as a director? I've always wondered, yeah.

So I wanted to understand why Romeo and Juliet, why now, and how he came up with this totally interesting, totally bonkers production. How does Sam Gold find his way into the middle of this mess? Like, what makes you decide to do Romeo and Juliet now?

So I wanted to understand why Romeo and Juliet, why now, and how he came up with this totally interesting, totally bonkers production. How does Sam Gold find his way into the middle of this mess? Like, what makes you decide to do Romeo and Juliet now?

People are increasingly engrossed in screens. Obviously, film precedes all the problems we think about with smartphones and everything, but what is the primary relationship between what you do and what shows up on screens in terms of TV and film?

People are increasingly engrossed in screens. Obviously, film precedes all the problems we think about with smartphones and everything, but what is the primary relationship between what you do and what shows up on screens in terms of TV and film?

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

You know, as I was reading this book, I asked myself, if we are today in the modern world more or less inclined to believe in miracles than the contemporaries of Jesus.

You know, as I was reading this book, I asked myself, if we are today in the modern world more or less inclined to believe in miracles than the contemporaries of Jesus.

Now?

Now?

You've said that you left the faith as a teenager after briefly entering it. You've been through everything in life and more that has to offer, whether it's life and loss and love and its loss and all these things, and have had an incredibly rich scholarly intellectual life. Does religion as such play any role in your life beyond its being a source of your intellectual commitment and study?

You've said that you left the faith as a teenager after briefly entering it. You've been through everything in life and more that has to offer, whether it's life and loss and love and its loss and all these things, and have had an incredibly rich scholarly intellectual life. Does religion as such play any role in your life beyond its being a source of your intellectual commitment and study?

Her new book out next week, a kind of culmination of her career, is called Miracles and Wonder. It takes on some of the central historical controversies of Christianity, including the stories of Immaculate Conception and the Resurrection.

Her new book out next week, a kind of culmination of her career, is called Miracles and Wonder. It takes on some of the central historical controversies of Christianity, including the stories of Immaculate Conception and the Resurrection.

But it's not belief as such.

But it's not belief as such.

Tell me about that.

Tell me about that.

Well, Judaism also is the one that I know where it's closest to me. It's also a matter of its being a civilization and a language and what language is and a great deal more. It's not just do I believe in God, do I not believe in God.

Well, Judaism also is the one that I know where it's closest to me. It's also a matter of its being a civilization and a language and what language is and a great deal more. It's not just do I believe in God, do I not believe in God.

Or a set of arguments.

Or a set of arguments.

Meeting Pagels again 30 years later, I was struck by just how focused she is on the topic of belief in Christian history and how the world of two millennia ago and the historical landscape, the world of the Jews and the Romans and Jesus, is to her so vividly alive. We first met, you're not going to believe this, 30 years ago.

Meeting Pagels again 30 years later, I was struck by just how focused she is on the topic of belief in Christian history and how the world of two millennia ago and the historical landscape, the world of the Jews and the Romans and Jesus, is to her so vividly alive. We first met, you're not going to believe this, 30 years ago.

So is it too banal to ask you if you're a Christian or not?

So is it too banal to ask you if you're a Christian or not?

What does all your study and experience lead you to think what happens after we die?

What does all your study and experience lead you to think what happens after we die?

And you include yourself in that.

And you include yourself in that.

Do you think about death a lot?

Do you think about death a lot?

And shortly thereafter, you published a book and I decided to write about you. You had suffered unimaginable loss. First, one of your children had died after a long illness. And then your husband, Heinz Pagels, had an accident and died while hiking. And you told me, and this is a quote from you at that time, I found that in times of grief, the church has little to say. It's just too remote.

And shortly thereafter, you published a book and I decided to write about you. You had suffered unimaginable loss. First, one of your children had died after a long illness. And then your husband, Heinz Pagels, had an accident and died while hiking. And you told me, and this is a quote from you at that time, I found that in times of grief, the church has little to say. It's just too remote.

What was it?

What was it?

Elaine Pagels, thank you so much.

Elaine Pagels, thank you so much.

Elaine Pagels is a professor of religion at Princeton University, and her new book is Miracles and Wonder, The Historical Mystery of Jesus. My colleague Adam Gopnik wrote a long, terrific, thoughtful piece about the book, which you can find at newyorker.com. And you can subscribe to the magazine at newyorker.com as well, newyorker.com. I'm David Remnick. Thanks so much for joining us this week.

Elaine Pagels is a professor of religion at Princeton University, and her new book is Miracles and Wonder, The Historical Mystery of Jesus. My colleague Adam Gopnik wrote a long, terrific, thoughtful piece about the book, which you can find at newyorker.com. And you can subscribe to the magazine at newyorker.com as well, newyorker.com. I'm David Remnick. Thanks so much for joining us this week.

See you next time.

See you next time.

How did those losses affect your relationship to faith at that time?

How did those losses affect your relationship to faith at that time?

But you as a teenager.

But you as a teenager.

You describe this scene... It was, I think, at the old Cow Palace in San Francisco where basketball games were played. And you were so taken with Billy Graham, who was, I guess for younger people who are listening, don't know, but Billy Graham was the great evangelist of his day and filled Yankee Stadium and other such places. That's it.

You describe this scene... It was, I think, at the old Cow Palace in San Francisco where basketball games were played. And you were so taken with Billy Graham, who was, I guess for younger people who are listening, don't know, but Billy Graham was the great evangelist of his day and filled Yankee Stadium and other such places. That's it.

And you were so swept away as a teenager that in the course of the evening, you were called to Christ.

And you were so swept away as a teenager that in the course of the evening, you were called to Christ.

But it was brief.

But it was brief.

You were out.

You were out.

So how did you decide to make a life of scholarship in religion? You've now published... the latest book in what I consider a lifelong project. There's a real continuity to all these books. Why did you come to focus on Christianity and some of the lesser-known narratives of Christianity, books that aren't part of the official canon.

So how did you decide to make a life of scholarship in religion? You've now published... the latest book in what I consider a lifelong project. There's a real continuity to all these books. Why did you come to focus on Christianity and some of the lesser-known narratives of Christianity, books that aren't part of the official canon.

You've given your professional life to this, your intellectual life to this.

You've given your professional life to this, your intellectual life to this.

Describe that, because not everybody's had that. How did it change your life and your mind?

Describe that, because not everybody's had that. How did it change your life and your mind?

When you were a kid and had this kind of evangelical breakthrough, no matter how fleeting it was, did you think of Jesus as a real person existing in a real historical time or Among political currents, as well as think of him in terms of a kind of supernatural or religious presence.

When you were a kid and had this kind of evangelical breakthrough, no matter how fleeting it was, did you think of Jesus as a real person existing in a real historical time or Among political currents, as well as think of him in terms of a kind of supernatural or religious presence.

It was a cinematic metaphor, but not real.

It was a cinematic metaphor, but not real.

If you could, and I know it's an elementary question, but it's crucial to understand it if we're going to get at your work in a deeper way. But we know the New Testament, and we know that there are four Gospels. Right.

If you could, and I know it's an elementary question, but it's crucial to understand it if we're going to get at your work in a deeper way. But we know the New Testament, and we know that there are four Gospels. Right.

Before Gospels emerged and somehow became canonical in what we know as the New Testament, there was a discovery at a certain point of a gigantic jar by somebody who basically came across it. And broke it open, and inside were texts, some of which were used as, I hate to even think about it, half of them seem to have been burned up most likely, right? Used as kindling for the fire, yes.

Before Gospels emerged and somehow became canonical in what we know as the New Testament, there was a discovery at a certain point of a gigantic jar by somebody who basically came across it. And broke it open, and inside were texts, some of which were used as, I hate to even think about it, half of them seem to have been burned up most likely, right? Used as kindling for the fire, yes.

But what survived are what's called the Gnostic Gospels. What are they, and how do they compare to the book of Mark and Matthew?

But what survived are what's called the Gnostic Gospels. What are they, and how do they compare to the book of Mark and Matthew?

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Decades ago, in fact, 30 years ago precisely, I published a piece in the New Yorker with the title The Devil Problem. It was a profile of Elaine Pagels, a scholar of early Christianity, who would also improbably become a best-selling author.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Decades ago, in fact, 30 years ago precisely, I published a piece in the New Yorker with the title The Devil Problem. It was a profile of Elaine Pagels, a scholar of early Christianity, who would also improbably become a best-selling author.

Why did they emerge and become the canon and the others fell away?

Why did they emerge and become the canon and the others fell away?

But why would they be considered heretical?

But why would they be considered heretical?

I'm talking with the religion scholar Elaine Pagels, and we'll continue in a moment.

I'm talking with the religion scholar Elaine Pagels, and we'll continue in a moment.

One part of your new book that's already received some, let's just say, attention in the Catholic hierarchy long before publication is your investigation of the narratives of Immaculate Conception. Tell me... How this is still controversial and uncertain 2,000 years later.

One part of your new book that's already received some, let's just say, attention in the Catholic hierarchy long before publication is your investigation of the narratives of Immaculate Conception. Tell me... How this is still controversial and uncertain 2,000 years later.

Or any Joseph. Or any Joseph, yes.

Or any Joseph. Or any Joseph, yes.

Pagels' 1979 book, The Gnostic Gospels, was scholarly and rigorous, but also accessible outside the academy and widely read. She changed how a lot of people, Christian and those we might call Christian-curious, how they thought about the Bible itself. Pagels went on to write The Origin of Satan, as well as works on Adam and Eve and the Book of Revelation.

Pagels' 1979 book, The Gnostic Gospels, was scholarly and rigorous, but also accessible outside the academy and widely read. She changed how a lot of people, Christian and those we might call Christian-curious, how they thought about the Bible itself. Pagels went on to write The Origin of Satan, as well as works on Adam and Eve and the Book of Revelation.

How long has that been in the scholarly discussion, the possibility that Jesus might have been an illegitimate child, to use the old phrase?

How long has that been in the scholarly discussion, the possibility that Jesus might have been an illegitimate child, to use the old phrase?

In a direct way?

In a direct way?

Is it an unspeakable thing among Catholic prelates and in Catholic academia to raise this question?

Is it an unspeakable thing among Catholic prelates and in Catholic academia to raise this question?

Who was that?

Who was that?

So it wasn't an entirely positive review.

So it wasn't an entirely positive review.

He thought you were making a mountain out of a molehill.

He thought you were making a mountain out of a molehill.

Not supernatural.

Not supernatural.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

How do you evaluate as both a journalist and somebody leading a journalism school, the reaction of the press in these early weeks to what's been going on in Washington?

How do you evaluate as both a journalist and somebody leading a journalism school, the reaction of the press in these early weeks to what's been going on in Washington?

Because Paramount controls CBS. In almost every one of these cases, though, it seems the problem is... that the corporations that own these media outlets have much bigger fish to fry in the corporate world than their media outlets. So Jeff Bezos, who owns the Washington Post and bought it for $250 million, that to him is nothing compared to the scale of Amazon itself.

Because Paramount controls CBS. In almost every one of these cases, though, it seems the problem is... that the corporations that own these media outlets have much bigger fish to fry in the corporate world than their media outlets. So Jeff Bezos, who owns the Washington Post and bought it for $250 million, that to him is nothing compared to the scale of Amazon itself.

What I notice sometimes speaking with friends who aren't in the press, who are doing all kinds of other things, they don't want to engage with the news too much. They feel exhausted. They feel psychologically self-protective in the way... That is very different from 2017. Any number of people say, you know, I refuse to watch CNN or I refuse to read the paper. And I'm kind of shocked by it.

What I notice sometimes speaking with friends who aren't in the press, who are doing all kinds of other things, they don't want to engage with the news too much. They feel exhausted. They feel psychologically self-protective in the way... That is very different from 2017. Any number of people say, you know, I refuse to watch CNN or I refuse to read the paper. And I'm kind of shocked by it.

And the tragic plane crash in Washington, the president also suggested, might well be the result of, yes, DEI. To understand what's happening here and why, I sat down the other day with Jelani Cobb. Jelani Cobb is a longtime staff writer at The New Yorker, and he's a historian and the dean of Columbia University's journalism school.

And the tragic plane crash in Washington, the president also suggested, might well be the result of, yes, DEI. To understand what's happening here and why, I sat down the other day with Jelani Cobb. Jelani Cobb is a longtime staff writer at The New Yorker, and he's a historian and the dean of Columbia University's journalism school.

That's not encouraging at all.

That's not encouraging at all.

For a long time now, Steve Bannon has been talking about the importance of flooding the zone to cause a kind of blitz of news and orders and activity from the White House with the idea that the media would never be able to focus their attention. I have to say, that seems to be working out just fine for Donald Trump, at the moment at least.

For a long time now, Steve Bannon has been talking about the importance of flooding the zone to cause a kind of blitz of news and orders and activity from the White House with the idea that the media would never be able to focus their attention. I have to say, that seems to be working out just fine for Donald Trump, at the moment at least.

And you're the first person today to mention Frank the Animal Fletcher to me.

And you're the first person today to mention Frank the Animal Fletcher to me.

You're saying a 78-year-old president can't keep it up forever. Yeah.

You're saying a 78-year-old president can't keep it up forever. Yeah.

I think there's an awareness among Trump's people that that's absolutely the case. But in many presidencies, the first burst of activity, the first hundred days, certainly the first two years before the midterms, is what's most crucial in getting things done. So a lot of activity can register as accomplishment for him very quickly. That's true.

I think there's an awareness among Trump's people that that's absolutely the case. But in many presidencies, the first burst of activity, the first hundred days, certainly the first two years before the midterms, is what's most crucial in getting things done. So a lot of activity can register as accomplishment for him very quickly. That's true.

Jelani, barely two or three weeks in office, Donald Trump has gone after academia, journalism, and diversity. So you're a dean, you're a journalist, and guess what? So how are you holding up?

Jelani, barely two or three weeks in office, Donald Trump has gone after academia, journalism, and diversity. So you're a dean, you're a journalist, and guess what? So how are you holding up?

You mentioned McCarthyism earlier, and you're a scholar of the Cold War, among other things. What are the similarities that you see between the Red Scare, the anti-communist campaign of the 50s, and what we're seeing now with DEI?

You mentioned McCarthyism earlier, and you're a scholar of the Cold War, among other things. What are the similarities that you see between the Red Scare, the anti-communist campaign of the 50s, and what we're seeing now with DEI?

You'll let me know when he does. Jelani Cobb, I appreciate your time. Be well.

You'll let me know when he does. Jelani Cobb, I appreciate your time. Be well.

You can read Jelani Cobb on politics, race, and much more at newyorker.com and at the very same website on the eve of our 100th anniversary. You can subscribe to the magazine there, too. I'm David Remnick. That's our show for today. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.

You can read Jelani Cobb on politics, race, and much more at newyorker.com and at the very same website on the eve of our 100th anniversary. You can subscribe to the magazine there, too. I'm David Remnick. That's our show for today. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.

And we had help this week from Evan David Roberts.

And we had help this week from Evan David Roberts.

Let's break this down then. What are the fears that you're sensing, for example, in academia where you're spending most of your days? You're at Columbia University.

Let's break this down then. What are the fears that you're sensing, for example, in academia where you're spending most of your days? You're at Columbia University.

Are those reasonable concerns, Jelani, since the people that are making the tenure decisions are senior faculty and deans?

Are those reasonable concerns, Jelani, since the people that are making the tenure decisions are senior faculty and deans?

What executive orders that have been issued so far related to DEI concern you most?

What executive orders that have been issued so far related to DEI concern you most?

Well, Jelani, what is DEI at its best, in your view? And are there abuses of it, and how would you describe them?

Well, Jelani, what is DEI at its best, in your view? And are there abuses of it, and how would you describe them?

And what's so terrible about that?

And what's so terrible about that?

They may be toothless, but we're... And there was a book about this called Diversity, Inc. I don't know if you read this. And, you know, if you stick around long enough at any company, sooner or later you'll be sent to a diversity training, which I have to say, certainly one of them that I went to seemed like

They may be toothless, but we're... And there was a book about this called Diversity, Inc. I don't know if you read this. And, you know, if you stick around long enough at any company, sooner or later you'll be sent to a diversity training, which I have to say, certainly one of them that I went to seemed like

beside the point at best and a racket at worst, you know, and didn't really have any positive impact on anybody's consciousness, much less hiring. So there can be an abuse of it, no?

beside the point at best and a racket at worst, you know, and didn't really have any positive impact on anybody's consciousness, much less hiring. So there can be an abuse of it, no?

Yeah. That's put in a much more elegant way. I appreciate that. But what causes a president in the United States, on the eve of a horrible tragedy like a plane crash, with seeming sincerity and all the chutzpah in the world, to blame that horrible accident, the deaths of dozens of people, on DEI? And get away with it.

Yeah. That's put in a much more elegant way. I appreciate that. But what causes a president in the United States, on the eve of a horrible tragedy like a plane crash, with seeming sincerity and all the chutzpah in the world, to blame that horrible accident, the deaths of dozens of people, on DEI? And get away with it.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Well, the opening weeks of the Trump administration seem to have followed a mantra from Facebook's earlier years. Move fast and break things and break them into a thousand pieces before anyone will notice.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Well, the opening weeks of the Trump administration seem to have followed a mantra from Facebook's earlier years. Move fast and break things and break them into a thousand pieces before anyone will notice.

And yet we've seen the vote for Donald Trump among the Black community, among the Latino community, increase this last time around.

And yet we've seen the vote for Donald Trump among the Black community, among the Latino community, increase this last time around.

Last week, we woke up to Elon Musk bragging that he was feeding a congressionally authorized agency with a 40 plus billion dollar budget into, and I quote, a wood chipper. Breaking things at warp speed is very much the point now. Many of the most draconian measures have been justified as emergency actions to root out DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Last week, we woke up to Elon Musk bragging that he was feeding a congressionally authorized agency with a 40 plus billion dollar budget into, and I quote, a wood chipper. Breaking things at warp speed is very much the point now. Many of the most draconian measures have been justified as emergency actions to root out DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Trump also released an executive order saying he would divert federal funds from schools teaching what he calls discriminatory equity ideology. It also said the government would sanction any school that taught that people can be oppressed due to their race, which is kind of amazing. What does that mean in practice? And how can a teacher reasonably deal with this?

Trump also released an executive order saying he would divert federal funds from schools teaching what he calls discriminatory equity ideology. It also said the government would sanction any school that taught that people can be oppressed due to their race, which is kind of amazing. What does that mean in practice? And how can a teacher reasonably deal with this?

I'm speaking with Jelani Cobb. He's the author of The Substance of Hope, Barack Obama and the Paradox of Progress, and many other books. We'll continue our conversation in a moment.

I'm speaking with Jelani Cobb. He's the author of The Substance of Hope, Barack Obama and the Paradox of Progress, and many other books. We'll continue our conversation in a moment.

And wound up killing 20, 30,000 people or so before it was over with.

And wound up killing 20, 30,000 people or so before it was over with.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I've been speaking today with Jelani Cobb, who's a historian and a staff writer at The New Yorker. We're talking about the Trump administration's wholesale assault on DEI, programs in the federal government and elsewhere that encourage diversity, equity, and inclusion. DEI is a singular obsession for Donald Trump and his allies.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I've been speaking today with Jelani Cobb, who's a historian and a staff writer at The New Yorker. We're talking about the Trump administration's wholesale assault on DEI, programs in the federal government and elsewhere that encourage diversity, equity, and inclusion. DEI is a singular obsession for Donald Trump and his allies.

So I'll return now to my conversation with journalist and historian Jelani Cobb. So in 2023, the Supreme Court issued its ruling that ended affirmative action as we knew it. Coupled with that, how are these executive orders going to affect the environment that you're in at Columbia and academia writ large?

So I'll return now to my conversation with journalist and historian Jelani Cobb. So in 2023, the Supreme Court issued its ruling that ended affirmative action as we knew it. Coupled with that, how are these executive orders going to affect the environment that you're in at Columbia and academia writ large?

These are typically programs put in place by large companies or institutions or government agencies to encourage more diverse workplaces. But the administration characterizes DEI as discrimination and broadly as the root of so much of what ails this nation. The temporary freeze of trillions of dollars in federal grants since rescinded was described as an anti-DEI measure.

These are typically programs put in place by large companies or institutions or government agencies to encourage more diverse workplaces. But the administration characterizes DEI as discrimination and broadly as the root of so much of what ails this nation. The temporary freeze of trillions of dollars in federal grants since rescinded was described as an anti-DEI measure.

On Radiolab, a story about how the country's most brilliant doctors did exactly what they were supposed to do.

On Radiolab, a story about how the country's most brilliant doctors did exactly what they were supposed to do.

The question we'll ask is, how did this happen?

The question we'll ask is, how did this happen?

Find out on How to Cure What Ails You from Radiolab. Listen where you get podcasts or on the WNYC app.

Find out on How to Cure What Ails You from Radiolab. Listen where you get podcasts or on the WNYC app.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

You can read Ayelet Waldman's essay, Piecing for Cover, at newyorker.com. She spoke with Jeffrey Masters, a senior producer on our show.

You can read Ayelet Waldman's essay, Piecing for Cover, at newyorker.com. She spoke with Jeffrey Masters, a senior producer on our show.

Ich möchte zurückkommen zu diesem Thema Ballett, weil es scheint, als wäre es ein sehr wichtiges Teil deines Lebens, dass du ein professioneller Balletttänzer bist. Wie viel trainiert du als Tänzer? Wie viel bleibt dir das mit? Ist das ein Teil deines Ansatzes als Schauspieler? Denkst du oft darüber nach, wenn du arbeitest?

Ich möchte zurückkommen zu diesem Thema Ballett, weil es scheint, als wäre es ein sehr wichtiges Teil deines Lebens, dass du ein professioneller Balletttänzer bist. Wie viel trainiert du als Tänzer? Wie viel bleibt dir das mit? Ist das ein Teil deines Ansatzes als Schauspieler? Denkst du oft darüber nach, wenn du arbeitest?

Also die Thanksgiving-Serie. Es geht um vier Leute, die, sagen wir mal, als Weiße präsentieren, versuchen, eine Serie über die erste Thanksgiving zu stellen und versuchen, und ich denke, oft verfehlen, diese nativale Präsence zu erinnern, die sie irgendwie versuchen, zu bezeichnen.

Also die Thanksgiving-Serie. Es geht um vier Leute, die, sagen wir mal, als Weiße präsentieren, versuchen, eine Serie über die erste Thanksgiving zu stellen und versuchen, und ich denke, oft verfehlen, diese nativale Präsence zu erinnern, die sie irgendwie versuchen, zu bezeichnen.

Und ich dachte viel darüber, was in Florida passiert, wie wir unsere Kinder auf Themen beitragen, die sie fühlen, was auch immer, schuldig oder überrascht. Wie viel von heutigen Dramen über Bildung und Rasse und Geschichte denkst du mit dieser neuen Produktion?

Und ich dachte viel darüber, was in Florida passiert, wie wir unsere Kinder auf Themen beitragen, die sie fühlen, was auch immer, schuldig oder überrascht. Wie viel von heutigen Dramen über Bildung und Rasse und Geschichte denkst du mit dieser neuen Produktion?

I mean, I imagine that that tension is exacerbated by the expectations of the audience, right? I mean, just the way the arts happen in America, usually the audiences are white. And they often, I think it's fair to say, some people come to the theater white. auf irgendeinem Niveau hoffen zu haben, eine Art lernende Erfahrung zu haben.

I mean, I imagine that that tension is exacerbated by the expectations of the audience, right? I mean, just the way the arts happen in America, usually the audiences are white. And they often, I think it's fair to say, some people come to the theater white. auf irgendeinem Niveau hoffen zu haben, eine Art lernende Erfahrung zu haben.

Was ich liebe an deinem Spiel ist, dass es so ist, dass du nur lachen wirst, und es fühlt sich seltsam an. Ist das etwas, mit dem du spielen möchtest, oder fühlt es sich als eine Hürde an? Nein, absolut nicht. Ich liebe das. Eine Sache, die ich liebe an diesem Spiel, ist, dass es einen Charakter namens Alicia gibt. Sie wird von Darcy Carton gespielt, ein sehr lustiger, wundervoller Performer.

Was ich liebe an deinem Spiel ist, dass es so ist, dass du nur lachen wirst, und es fühlt sich seltsam an. Ist das etwas, mit dem du spielen möchtest, oder fühlt es sich als eine Hürde an? Nein, absolut nicht. Ich liebe das. Eine Sache, die ich liebe an diesem Spiel, ist, dass es einen Charakter namens Alicia gibt. Sie wird von Darcy Carton gespielt, ein sehr lustiger, wundervoller Performer.

Und sie wird auf die Überzeugung geholt, dass sie ein naturer Mensch ist. Und ich habe darüber nachgedacht, weil eine Menge der Literatur, die ich aufgewachsen bin, Black Literature, Passing ist ein großes Thema. Was bedeutet Passing für dich? Auf der Bühne und so weiter.

Und sie wird auf die Überzeugung geholt, dass sie ein naturer Mensch ist. Und ich habe darüber nachgedacht, weil eine Menge der Literatur, die ich aufgewachsen bin, Black Literature, Passing ist ein großes Thema. Was bedeutet Passing für dich? Auf der Bühne und so weiter.

Is that America's subtitle? Is that perhaps the whole thing? Yeah.

Is that America's subtitle? Is that perhaps the whole thing? Yeah.

Ich würde mir vorstellen, dass das eine Korrelation zu deiner Erfahrung hat.

Ich würde mir vorstellen, dass das eine Korrelation zu deiner Erfahrung hat.

Eines der tollen Dinge an den Thanksgiving Plays ist, dass es so viele Dinge über Theater beobachtet, die uns als Probleme zeigen und uns sagen, ob wir das wirklich meinen. Ich denke, wir sind alle in einer Orthodoxie eingegangen. Du kannst nicht außerhalb deiner Race, Ethnicität, deinem Aussehen spielen.

Eines der tollen Dinge an den Thanksgiving Plays ist, dass es so viele Dinge über Theater beobachtet, die uns als Probleme zeigen und uns sagen, ob wir das wirklich meinen. Ich denke, wir sind alle in einer Orthodoxie eingegangen. Du kannst nicht außerhalb deiner Race, Ethnicität, deinem Aussehen spielen.

und was tatsächlich passiert wäre. Wenn Sie denken, Sie würden gerne sehen, dass gutmeinende Liberale ihre eigenen guten Intentionen verursachen, dann ist dieses Spiel für Sie. Als das Thanksgiving-Spiel letztes Jahr auf Broadway premierierte, sprach unser Kritiker Vincent Cunningham mit der Schauspielerin Larissa Fasthorse.

und was tatsächlich passiert wäre. Wenn Sie denken, Sie würden gerne sehen, dass gutmeinende Liberale ihre eigenen guten Intentionen verursachen, dann ist dieses Spiel für Sie. Als das Thanksgiving-Spiel letztes Jahr auf Broadway premierierte, sprach unser Kritiker Vincent Cunningham mit der Schauspielerin Larissa Fasthorse.

Aber natürlich bedeutet das, wenn es nicht indigenische Rollen gibt, sind indigenische Schauspieler niemals in der Lage, diese aktive Repräsentation zu machen. In deiner Erfahrung, wenn du mit Schauspielern arbeitest, wie haben Leute damit angefangen?

Aber natürlich bedeutet das, wenn es nicht indigenische Rollen gibt, sind indigenische Schauspieler niemals in der Lage, diese aktive Repräsentation zu machen. In deiner Erfahrung, wenn du mit Schauspielern arbeitest, wie haben Leute damit angefangen?

these same well-meaning people. I don't know. What has been the response to that? This is kind of you. How do you feel about that?

these same well-meaning people. I don't know. What has been the response to that? This is kind of you. How do you feel about that?

Sie ist die einzige Native Americanin, die ein Spiel auf Broadway produziert hat.

Sie ist die einzige Native Americanin, die ein Spiel auf Broadway produziert hat.

Think about the Lenape only usually before a show or something. And then someone comes out and does a land acknowledgement and say, this is the land of the Lenape people. How do you feel about that practice?

Think about the Lenape only usually before a show or something. And then someone comes out and does a land acknowledgement and say, this is the land of the Lenape people. How do you feel about that practice?

Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you so much for doing this.

That's Larissa Fasthorse speaking with staff writer Vincent Cunningham last year when the Thanksgiving play premiered on Broadway. It's been produced all over the country. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour with more to come.

That's Larissa Fasthorse speaking with staff writer Vincent Cunningham last year when the Thanksgiving play premiered on Broadway. It's been produced all over the country. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour with more to come.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. If you're feeling a little stressed out lately, not that I'm implying anything stressful is going on, you might do what Ayelet Waldman did and take up a hobby.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. If you're feeling a little stressed out lately, not that I'm implying anything stressful is going on, you might do what Ayelet Waldman did and take up a hobby.

Waldman is a novelist, an essayist, and earlier this year she wrote a piece for The New Yorker about quilting. Waldman discovered that quilting was not just pleasant or useful...

Waldman is a novelist, an essayist, and earlier this year she wrote a piece for The New Yorker about quilting. Waldman discovered that quilting was not just pleasant or useful...

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.

A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.

And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Tarina Endowment Fund.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Tarina Endowment Fund.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Kraftwerk. Kraftwerk, of course. This is Rook Zook. I'm seeing them tomorrow night. From their 1970 debut album. You're going to see Kraftwerk.

Kraftwerk. Kraftwerk, of course. This is Rook Zook. I'm seeing them tomorrow night. From their 1970 debut album. You're going to see Kraftwerk.

Well, this will be a pre-concert primer for you then. Oh, I hope so. Listeners of a certain age may know that song, Rook Zook, because it was used as the theme song to Newton's Apple, the public television show about science. And back then, Kraftwerk, they were kind of like a progressive rock band back then, right? It kind of almost sounds like Tubular Bells or one of those records.

Well, this will be a pre-concert primer for you then. Oh, I hope so. Listeners of a certain age may know that song, Rook Zook, because it was used as the theme song to Newton's Apple, the public television show about science. And back then, Kraftwerk, they were kind of like a progressive rock band back then, right? It kind of almost sounds like Tubular Bells or one of those records.

Yes, early 70s. 73, too? Well, the debut record is 1970. And, you know, they're obsessed with electronic instruments, but also electronic rhythm, which turned out to be important to the history of music. Sure did. In 1974, they made this album called Autobahn. Here's a little bit of it.

Yes, early 70s. 73, too? Well, the debut record is 1970. And, you know, they're obsessed with electronic instruments, but also electronic rhythm, which turned out to be important to the history of music. Sure did. In 1974, they made this album called Autobahn. Here's a little bit of it.

It went to number five on the American album chart. And it was kind of like a lot of great bands or great tracks. It was kind of considered a novelty record, right? Like these Germans singing about the Autobahn.

It went to number five on the American album chart. And it was kind of like a lot of great bands or great tracks. It was kind of considered a novelty record, right? Like these Germans singing about the Autobahn.

And there was this idea that, like, these artsy Germans from Dusseldorf were making the music of the future. And the funniest thing about that joke is it turned out to be true, more or less. Although, if you wanted to make a parody of German music, you probably couldn't do much better than this track, Trans Europe Express, 1977. Rendezvous Heidi, it's severe, lyrics about trains.

And there was this idea that, like, these artsy Germans from Dusseldorf were making the music of the future. And the funniest thing about that joke is it turned out to be true, more or less. Although, if you wanted to make a parody of German music, you probably couldn't do much better than this track, Trans Europe Express, 1977. Rendezvous Heidi, it's severe, lyrics about trains.

But the funny thing about this is a few years later, Trans Europe Express was reborn as a track called Planet Rock by Afrika Bambaataa and Soul Sonic Force.

But the funny thing about this is a few years later, Trans Europe Express was reborn as a track called Planet Rock by Afrika Bambaataa and Soul Sonic Force.

Yeah. And part of what I like about this history is it kind of flips the history of rock and roll, right? You have this rock and roll history of these beloved old black blues musicians and these upstart white bands are ripping them off. And here the role of the beloved black older blues musician is played by the members of Kraftwerk.

Yeah. And part of what I like about this history is it kind of flips the history of rock and roll, right? You have this rock and roll history of these beloved old black blues musicians and these upstart white bands are ripping them off. And here the role of the beloved black older blues musician is played by the members of Kraftwerk.

And, you know, it's funny how quickly that sound, that Kraftwerk-y sound comes to be associated with other things. It comes to be associated with break dancers and stuff.

And, you know, it's funny how quickly that sound, that Kraftwerk-y sound comes to be associated with other things. It comes to be associated with break dancers and stuff.

Did you ever bust out a little bit of cardboard and do some moves, David? Less frequently than you would have thought. I can barely spin on my feet. It wouldn't have worked well. So in 1981, Kraftwerk, you know, synthesizers are not so new anymore. And Kraftwerk makes basically a concept album about a different emerging technology, the personal computer. also turned out to be important.

Did you ever bust out a little bit of cardboard and do some moves, David? Less frequently than you would have thought. I can barely spin on my feet. It wouldn't have worked well. So in 1981, Kraftwerk, you know, synthesizers are not so new anymore. And Kraftwerk makes basically a concept album about a different emerging technology, the personal computer. also turned out to be important.

I heard that. They called it Computer World, and one of the best tracks is Numbers. You know, the vocals kind of sound like they're coming from a speakin' spell. But in fact, I believe they're coming from a device called the Language Translator, which was made by the same company, Texas Instruments, that made the speakin' spell. They were experimenting with all this stuff.

I heard that. They called it Computer World, and one of the best tracks is Numbers. You know, the vocals kind of sound like they're coming from a speakin' spell. But in fact, I believe they're coming from a device called the Language Translator, which was made by the same company, Texas Instruments, that made the speakin' spell. They were experimenting with all this stuff.

And one of the things they've realized is, you know, I think a lot of us thought that to be a hit, a song probably needed a catchy tune. I think what they realized is they got more and more interested in the textures and sounds that were coming out of these electronic equipments.

And one of the things they've realized is, you know, I think a lot of us thought that to be a hit, a song probably needed a catchy tune. I think what they realized is they got more and more interested in the textures and sounds that were coming out of these electronic equipments.

And they realized that you could have a rigid electronic beat, but somehow have enough happening that it wouldn't be boring and it wouldn't be predictable. Or if it was predictable, it would be predictable in a good way. But they were arguably the first. Well, you know, a lot of people were using this stuff, right? Like Sly Stone has one of the first drum machine hits, right, in 1971.

And they realized that you could have a rigid electronic beat, but somehow have enough happening that it wouldn't be boring and it wouldn't be predictable. Or if it was predictable, it would be predictable in a good way. But they were arguably the first. Well, you know, a lot of people were using this stuff, right? Like Sly Stone has one of the first drum machine hits, right, in 1971.

So, you know, people are using this electronic stuff, but they had a – there was something about their vision. And as with anything else, they put elements together in a way that was catchy. It's a funny word to use about a track like Numbers, but – Numbers comes back. Here's a way in which Numbers comes back. A trio from Florida called Anquette has a song called Shake It, Do the 61st.

So, you know, people are using this electronic stuff, but they had a – there was something about their vision. And as with anything else, they put elements together in a way that was catchy. It's a funny word to use about a track like Numbers, but – Numbers comes back. Here's a way in which Numbers comes back. A trio from Florida called Anquette has a song called Shake It, Do the 61st.

And if you listen closely, you can hear those chirping, fluttering synthesizers in the background from Numbers. That's the group Anquette, yeah. So, I know we are a little bit digressive. I'd like to get extra digressive here for a moment, David.

And if you listen closely, you can hear those chirping, fluttering synthesizers in the background from Numbers. That's the group Anquette, yeah. So, I know we are a little bit digressive. I'd like to get extra digressive here for a moment, David.

The single is called Janet Reno, who at the time was, I believe, a U.S. attorney in Miami-Dade County. Oh, it was before she was in the Clinton administration. Yes, because she was a local figure. And the idea was that if you don't pay your child support, Janet Reno was going to come after you. I don't know if she owns an autographed copy of that single, but I hope she does.

The single is called Janet Reno, who at the time was, I believe, a U.S. attorney in Miami-Dade County. Oh, it was before she was in the Clinton administration. Yes, because she was a local figure. And the idea was that if you don't pay your child support, Janet Reno was going to come after you. I don't know if she owns an autographed copy of that single, but I hope she does.

Anyway, back to Kraftwerk. This one particular track, Numbers, kept getting recycled and sampled and sampled. You might recognize the robotic counting in this techno track. This is Mike Hitman Wilson's remix of Rock to the Beat by Reese, which is a name of the producer Kevin Saunderson, who was one of the Detroit producers who created techno. And so this is a fairly early techno track.

Anyway, back to Kraftwerk. This one particular track, Numbers, kept getting recycled and sampled and sampled. You might recognize the robotic counting in this techno track. This is Mike Hitman Wilson's remix of Rock to the Beat by Reese, which is a name of the producer Kevin Saunderson, who was one of the Detroit producers who created techno. And so this is a fairly early techno track.

This is only a few years after the genre was born. And by this point, like, Kraftwerk is roots music. And for a techno producer, that's a way of paying tribute to, you know, the eight, by this point, eight years old German track that helped inspire them. Okay, one last Kraftwerk track, Computer Love, from that same 1981 album Computer World. It's kind of a love song about computers.

This is only a few years after the genre was born. And by this point, like, Kraftwerk is roots music. And for a techno producer, that's a way of paying tribute to, you know, the eight, by this point, eight years old German track that helped inspire them. Okay, one last Kraftwerk track, Computer Love, from that same 1981 album Computer World. It's kind of a love song about computers.

I think the sense of humor in Kraftwerk is sometimes underrated. Overlooked. Yeah, there's a silliness to them or a sense of play.

I think the sense of humor in Kraftwerk is sometimes underrated. Overlooked. Yeah, there's a silliness to them or a sense of play.

Well, I think it's fair to say most of the people who come to see them now are there for the older songs, right? They would call that a legacy act, right? Not oldies. It's pejorative.

Well, I think it's fair to say most of the people who come to see them now are there for the older songs, right? They would call that a legacy act, right? Not oldies. It's pejorative.

Yeah, so the heart of Kraftwerk was Florian Schneider and Ralf Hutter. Ralf Hutter is still alive and touring. Florian Schneider died in 2020. So, you know, it's partly an opportunity to pay tribute to this legacy. But, David, I think you might have told on yourself a little bit. You said that this track, Computer Love, sounded kind of familiar. Something. I think I know why. Why?

Yeah, so the heart of Kraftwerk was Florian Schneider and Ralf Hutter. Ralf Hutter is still alive and touring. Florian Schneider died in 2020. So, you know, it's partly an opportunity to pay tribute to this legacy. But, David, I think you might have told on yourself a little bit. You said that this track, Computer Love, sounded kind of familiar. Something. I think I know why. Why?

Because Coldplay took the melody and used it for Talk from 2005. Wow. This is the ultimate musical lesson that no matter what kind of pioneer you are, you're going to come back to life as a Coldplay song. Okay.

Because Coldplay took the melody and used it for Talk from 2005. Wow. This is the ultimate musical lesson that no matter what kind of pioneer you are, you're going to come back to life as a Coldplay song. Okay.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I have so much to say on this subject.

I have so much to say on this subject.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one.

Four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Tarina Endowment Fund.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Tarina Endowment Fund.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

Ooh.

Ooh.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Ooh.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.

Kraftwerk. Kraftwerk, of course. This is Rook Zook. I'm seeing them tomorrow night. From their 1970 debut album. You're going to see Kraftwerk.

Well, this will be a pre-concert primer for you then. Oh, I hope so. Listeners of a certain age may know that song, Rook Zook, because it was used as the theme song to Newton's Apple, the public television show about science. And back then, Kraftwerk, they were kind of like a progressive rock band back then, right? It kind of almost sounds like Tubular Bells or one of those records.

Yes, early 70s. 73, too? Well, the debut record is 1970. And, you know, they're obsessed with electronic instruments, but also electronic rhythm, which turned out to be important to the history of music. Sure did. In 1974, they made this album called Autobahn. Here's a little bit of it.

It went to number five on the American album chart. And it was kind of like a lot of great bands or great tracks. It was kind of considered a novelty record, right? Like these Germans singing about the Autobahn.

And there was this idea that, like, these artsy Germans from Dusseldorf were making the music of the future. And the funniest thing about that joke is it turned out to be true, more or less. Although, if you wanted to make a parody of German music, you probably couldn't do much better than this track, Trans Europe Express, 1977. Rendezvous Heidi, it's severe, lyrics about trains.

But the funny thing about this is a few years later, Trans Europe Express was reborn as a track called Planet Rock by Afrika Bambaataa and Soul Sonic Force.

Yeah. And part of what I like about this history is it kind of flips the history of rock and roll, right? You have this rock and roll history of these beloved old black blues musicians and these upstart white bands are ripping them off. And here the role of the beloved black older blues musician is played by the members of Kraftwerk.

And, you know, it's funny how quickly that sound, that Kraftwerk-y sound comes to be associated with other things. It comes to be associated with break dancers and stuff.

Did you ever bust out a little bit of cardboard and do some moves, David? Less frequently than you would have thought. I can barely spin on my feet. It wouldn't have worked well. So in 1981, Kraftwerk, you know, synthesizers are not so new anymore. And Kraftwerk makes basically a concept album about a different emerging technology, the personal computer. also turned out to be important.

I heard that. They called it Computer World, and one of the best tracks is Numbers. You know, the vocals kind of sound like they're coming from a speakin' spell. But in fact, I believe they're coming from a device called the Language Translator, which was made by the same company, Texas Instruments, that made the speakin' spell. They were experimenting with all this stuff.

And one of the things they've realized is, you know, I think a lot of us thought that to be a hit, a song probably needed a catchy tune. I think what they realized is they got more and more interested in the textures and sounds that were coming out of these electronic equipments.

And they realized that you could have a rigid electronic beat, but somehow have enough happening that it wouldn't be boring and it wouldn't be predictable. Or if it was predictable, it would be predictable in a good way. But they were arguably the first. Well, you know, a lot of people were using this stuff, right? Like Sly Stone has one of the first drum machine hits, right, in 1971.

So, you know, people are using this electronic stuff, but they had a – there was something about their vision. And as with anything else, they put elements together in a way that was catchy. It's a funny word to use about a track like Numbers, but – Numbers comes back. Here's a way in which Numbers comes back. A trio from Florida called Anquette has a song called Shake It, Do the 61st.

And if you listen closely, you can hear those chirping, fluttering synthesizers in the background from Numbers. That's the group Anquette, yeah. So, I know we are a little bit digressive. I'd like to get extra digressive here for a moment, David.

The single is called Janet Reno, who at the time was, I believe, a U.S. attorney in Miami-Dade County. Oh, it was before she was in the Clinton administration. Yes, because she was a local figure. And the idea was that if you don't pay your child support, Janet Reno was going to come after you. I don't know if she owns an autographed copy of that single, but I hope she does.

Anyway, back to Kraftwerk. This one particular track, Numbers, kept getting recycled and sampled and sampled. You might recognize the robotic counting in this techno track. This is Mike Hitman Wilson's remix of Rock to the Beat by Reese, which is a name of the producer Kevin Saunderson, who was one of the Detroit producers who created techno. And so this is a fairly early techno track.

This is only a few years after the genre was born. And by this point, like, Kraftwerk is roots music. And for a techno producer, that's a way of paying tribute to, you know, the eight, by this point, eight years old German track that helped inspire them. Okay, one last Kraftwerk track, Computer Love, from that same 1981 album Computer World. It's kind of a love song about computers.

I think the sense of humor in Kraftwerk is sometimes underrated. Overlooked. Yeah, there's a silliness to them or a sense of play.

Well, I think it's fair to say most of the people who come to see them now are there for the older songs, right? They would call that a legacy act, right? Not oldies. It's pejorative.

Yeah, so the heart of Kraftwerk was Florian Schneider and Ralf Hutter. Ralf Hutter is still alive and touring. Florian Schneider died in 2020. So, you know, it's partly an opportunity to pay tribute to this legacy. But, David, I think you might have told on yourself a little bit. You said that this track, Computer Love, sounded kind of familiar. Something. I think I know why. Why?

Because Coldplay took the melody and used it for Talk from 2005. Wow. This is the ultimate musical lesson that no matter what kind of pioneer you are, you're going to come back to life as a Coldplay song. Okay.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I have so much to say on this subject.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parrish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one.

A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.

And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

You know, as I was reading this book, I asked myself, if we are today in the modern world more or less inclined to believe in miracles than the contemporaries of Jesus.

Now?

You've said that you left the faith as a teenager after briefly entering it. You've been through everything in life and more that has to offer, whether it's life and loss and love and its loss and all these things, and have had an incredibly rich scholarly intellectual life. Does religion as such play any role in your life beyond its being a source of your intellectual commitment and study?

Her new book out next week, a kind of culmination of her career, is called Miracles and Wonder. It takes on some of the central historical controversies of Christianity, including the stories of Immaculate Conception and the Resurrection.

But it's not belief as such.

Tell me about that.

Well, Judaism also is the one that I know where it's closest to me. It's also a matter of its being a civilization and a language and what language is and a great deal more. It's not just do I believe in God, do I not believe in God.

Or a set of arguments.

Meeting Pagels again 30 years later, I was struck by just how focused she is on the topic of belief in Christian history and how the world of two millennia ago and the historical landscape, the world of the Jews and the Romans and Jesus, is to her so vividly alive. We first met, you're not going to believe this, 30 years ago.

So is it too banal to ask you if you're a Christian or not?

What does all your study and experience lead you to think what happens after we die?

And you include yourself in that.

Do you think about death a lot?

And shortly thereafter, you published a book and I decided to write about you. You had suffered unimaginable loss. First, one of your children had died after a long illness. And then your husband, Heinz Pagels, had an accident and died while hiking. And you told me, and this is a quote from you at that time, I found that in times of grief, the church has little to say. It's just too remote.

What was it?

Elaine Pagels, thank you so much.

Elaine Pagels is a professor of religion at Princeton University, and her new book is Miracles and Wonder, The Historical Mystery of Jesus. My colleague Adam Gopnik wrote a long, terrific, thoughtful piece about the book, which you can find at newyorker.com. And you can subscribe to the magazine at newyorker.com as well, newyorker.com. I'm David Remnick. Thanks so much for joining us this week.

See you next time.

How did those losses affect your relationship to faith at that time?

But you as a teenager.

You describe this scene... It was, I think, at the old Cow Palace in San Francisco where basketball games were played. And you were so taken with Billy Graham, who was, I guess for younger people who are listening, don't know, but Billy Graham was the great evangelist of his day and filled Yankee Stadium and other such places. That's it.

And you were so swept away as a teenager that in the course of the evening, you were called to Christ.

But it was brief.

You were out.

So how did you decide to make a life of scholarship in religion? You've now published... the latest book in what I consider a lifelong project. There's a real continuity to all these books. Why did you come to focus on Christianity and some of the lesser-known narratives of Christianity, books that aren't part of the official canon.

You've given your professional life to this, your intellectual life to this.

Describe that, because not everybody's had that. How did it change your life and your mind?

When you were a kid and had this kind of evangelical breakthrough, no matter how fleeting it was, did you think of Jesus as a real person existing in a real historical time or Among political currents, as well as think of him in terms of a kind of supernatural or religious presence.

It was a cinematic metaphor, but not real.

If you could, and I know it's an elementary question, but it's crucial to understand it if we're going to get at your work in a deeper way. But we know the New Testament, and we know that there are four Gospels. Right.

Before Gospels emerged and somehow became canonical in what we know as the New Testament, there was a discovery at a certain point of a gigantic jar by somebody who basically came across it. And broke it open, and inside were texts, some of which were used as, I hate to even think about it, half of them seem to have been burned up most likely, right? Used as kindling for the fire, yes.

But what survived are what's called the Gnostic Gospels. What are they, and how do they compare to the book of Mark and Matthew?

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Decades ago, in fact, 30 years ago precisely, I published a piece in the New Yorker with the title The Devil Problem. It was a profile of Elaine Pagels, a scholar of early Christianity, who would also improbably become a best-selling author.

Why did they emerge and become the canon and the others fell away?

But why would they be considered heretical?

I'm talking with the religion scholar Elaine Pagels, and we'll continue in a moment.

One part of your new book that's already received some, let's just say, attention in the Catholic hierarchy long before publication is your investigation of the narratives of Immaculate Conception. Tell me... How this is still controversial and uncertain 2,000 years later.

Or any Joseph. Or any Joseph, yes.

Pagels' 1979 book, The Gnostic Gospels, was scholarly and rigorous, but also accessible outside the academy and widely read. She changed how a lot of people, Christian and those we might call Christian-curious, how they thought about the Bible itself. Pagels went on to write The Origin of Satan, as well as works on Adam and Eve and the Book of Revelation.

How long has that been in the scholarly discussion, the possibility that Jesus might have been an illegitimate child, to use the old phrase?

In a direct way?

Is it an unspeakable thing among Catholic prelates and in Catholic academia to raise this question?

Who was that?

So it wasn't an entirely positive review.

He thought you were making a mountain out of a molehill.

Not supernatural.

Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a Peabody Award and a DuPont Columbia Award, among others.

In addition to this award-winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Smotrich suggested planning for this is already in motion.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Now, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

Yeah, that's not the right question. The question is, why would they do such a stupid thing? Yeah, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the question.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

From the online spectacle around Leo XIV's election to our favorite on-screen cardinals. This week on Critics at Large, we're talking all things Pope.

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Join me and my co-hosts for an episode on what can only be described as Pope Week. New episodes of Critics at Large drop every Thursday. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer.

With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Tarina Endowment Fund.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.