As President Biden took office in 2021, he aimed to rebuild alliances that Donald Trump had threatened during his first term. That effort was challenged by an onslaught of international crises, from Ukraine to Gaza. The person tasked with trying to restore the old order was Secretary of State Antony Blinken. He spoke with David Remnick days before leaving the White House, and shortly before the ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas was announced this week. “I’ve been laboring to try to get to a better place in Gaza and particularly to get a ceasefire that brings the hostages home, that stops the firing in both directions, that surges humanitarian assistance, that also creates space to get something permanent,” Blinken said. “We are, I hope, finally, belatedly on the brink of getting that.” Blinken expressed cautious optimism that a long-term resolution remains possible. “I’ve had many opportunities to meet with Prime Minister Netanyahu. When the conversation comes to normalization with Saudi Arabia, that’s the point at which he sits up, leans forward, leans in. He knows that for Israel, too, that would be an absolute game changer.” The hope is that normalization might induce Israelis to reconsider the question of Palestinian statehood. But Blinken recognized the limits of American influence on its ally. “Israeli society will have to choose. They’ll have to decide if that’s the path that they’re ready and willing and able to travel in order to get to normalization.”
Chapter 1: What is the context of Antony Blinken's exit interview?
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Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The announcement earlier this week of a ceasefire deal in Gaza is maybe the most hopeful news from this terrible conflict since the October 7th attack. Now, it has to be said that even with the possibility of a ceasefire, there are many reasons for caution here, not least that far-right elements in Israel may well try to undermine the deal.
After the initial and horrific attack on October 7th, the war in Gaza has left tens of thousands dead, and Gaza itself a near ruin. Israeli hostages remain in captivity, We'll see if they're released soon. Hezbollah has been decimated. Iran is weakened and isolated. So maybe, after so much suffering, this is a moment when change is possible.
That at least is the position of Antony Blinken, the outgoing Secretary of State. He's been President Biden's chief partner in attempting to manage the many global crises of the past four years. including the invasion of Ukraine and China's continuing threats toward Taiwan.
We spoke about all of that last week as Secretary Blinken was on the verge of turning over the State Department to Marco Rubio and the Trump administration, and just before the announcement of the ceasefire deal. Secretary Blinken, thanks for coming to the New Yorker Radio Hour. And this turns out to be your absolute exit interview. That's right.
I think we can acknowledge that in the position that you have, that sometimes you have to stick to talking points or formal language. But with all due respect, I'm hoping that we can peel aside some of that, at least some of that caution, and confront some serious and even contentious questions more directly than before.
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Chapter 2: What were the main challenges faced during Blinken's tenure?
In your speech, you gave a lot of time and credibility to and hope for the Palestinian authorities' role in this situation going ahead, which is, you know, oh, were it so, but it's extremely weak and even more unpopular, as you well know. And on the Israeli side, Bibi Netanyahu continues to dominate the Israeli political scene.
Anybody that's risen up as a potential challenger to him, either within his party or outside of his party, has the half-life of a loaf of bread. And so the prospects for what you're hoping seem to be extremely far off.
Look, in this moment, David, no one's ready for that conversation. I acknowledge it. But... It proceeds in steps. First step is getting an end to the conflict in Gaza. And again, as we speak, we're on the brink at least of getting an initial ceasefire. Then it's turning that ceasefire into something permanent.
And in order to do that, we have to have understandings, we have to have arrangements for what's going to fill into Gaza for security, for governance and administration, for reconstruction that is not Israel and not Hamas.
And we've done a lot of work on that over the last six months with Arab partners, with others, so that we can hand over a plan to the incoming administration, which it can use or not use, look at or not look at, to do that. But if we can get to that point where we have a permanent ceasefire, okay, Gaza is then settled down at... extraordinary, excruciating cost, but that's one piece.
And then I come back to what we were talking about before, which is, again, why I believe that the road to finally resolving the Palestinian question is still there. And that is the prospects for Israel of finally integrating the region, finally having normal relations with everyone.
We saw powerfully what that can mean for Israel's security when not once, but twice, Iran attacked Israel, the first time, unprecedented, hundreds of ballistic missiles and drones. And what happened? Because of countries that we, the United States, put together, including countries in the region, Israel was defended. The attacks failed.
I'm speaking with Secretary of State Antony Blinken. We'll continue our conversation in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour with more to come.
A fringe group of Afrikaners went to Capitol Hill to advocate for white farmers in South Africa. They didn't bargain for what would happen next.
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Chapter 3: How did the conflict in Gaza evolve during Blinken's time?
The multiplicity, the complexity, the interconnectedness of challenges is greater than it's ever been. So I keep joking about this, but my friend Tom Friedman wrote a column a few months ago that I love because it said, parents, don't let your sons and daughters grow up to be Secretary of State.
Well, Mr. Secretary, I assume you're going to give yourself a week off at least after the inauguration.
Oh, you bet.
And maybe you'll write a book. And you've been working with Joe Biden for a very long time, a very long time. And I don't know anybody in government that's closer to Joe Biden. And you've spelled out here and in other venues his virtues and what you see as your successes and your analysis of the administration.
We are, though, ending this era when even very friendly commentators feel that this administration is ending with a central tragedy in that Joe Biden is doing what he never wanted to do, which is to hand the presidency back to to his historical foe, who he considers a deep danger to matters domestic and foreign.
And it's quite likely that had he decided not to run a second time, we might not be in this position, and that he made a perhaps understandable human decision, but born of some denial of the human condition and mortality, Do you wish that he had made a very different decision and not run a second time? And do you think that his aging was to some degree overlooked or even covered up?
David, here's what I saw. And you're right. I've worked with the president for more than 20 years. And it's really been the greatest privilege of my professional career, starting in the Senate, then as vice president, and then as president. And do we all change as we get older? Yeah, absolutely. When you get to a certain age, are you likely to slow down a little bit? Of course.
And this is the God's truth, because I was in the Oval Office and the Situation Room and everywhere else in between with him for four years. Whether you agree or not, whether you like or not, I can tell you that every decision that was made, every policy that was pursued, reflected his judgment and his decision. It's not like someone else was doing it.
And I know you said this both sincerely and elsewhere.
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