Tristan Hughes
Appearances
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
So let's go on to the animals. And we've mentioned ones already like the rat, the ox, and the unfortunate cat, which missed out, being part of the canonical 12. But John, this is another good pub quiz question coming up. What are the animals that make up the Chinese zodiac?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
I must admit, it does quite surprise me that the dragon finished fifth when you think what a dragon has compared to those other animals.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
got beaten by the rabbit but fair enough well that's very interesting indeed okay and so we are ending the year of the dragon before the chinese new year and we're entering the year of the snake is it the snake is the next one snake's next one yes yeah and so the other big question john what do all these animals mean
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Think their own famous zodiac featuring names like Capricorn, Aries, Leo, Sagittarius, and so on. An episode we'll no doubt do in the future. But John has also studied astronomy in ancient China and how they divided up time into cycles of 60 years.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
John, I must apologize, but you are on the ancients. So this is the podcast which asks the big questions in regards to this. And I must also ask one more, and we may well not know the answer, but do we know why back in Han Dynasty China, when deciding, if they are deciding, let's say in circles or wherever, which animal to assign to which branch, they choose those animals.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Do we think that the rat and the snake and the dragon and the pig had important meaning to them at that time, which influenced their decision?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
It's a cycle that has its roots in ancient Chinese history, more than 3,000 years old, and heavily features the 12 animals that represent the Chinese zodiac today. We're going to be exploring it all, lots of detail and information coming your way, and I hope you enjoy. John, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Well, I know how in, well, they say the originally Babylonian Zodiac, but I know it's often called the Western Zodiac today. You have all these websites and people laying out the strengths and weaknesses of each of them, and each of them has their own qualities. I mean, with the Chinese Zodiac, did they think any particular animals were better than others, were the best?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Or how do they approach that in regards to their qualities? And I guess, yeah, overall strengths versus weaknesses.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
We've talked about the branches. We've talked about the stems and how the animals become part of that and the overall number of 60 and how that's also important. Covered the phases and the animals. So let's move on to the Chinese New Year, because this is something which is obviously so closely associated with the Chinese zodiac today. Now, is Chinese New Year and the whole festival a bit?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Is it just as ancient as the Chinese zodiac? Are they always intertwined?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
And linking into that, I mean, at the same time, it must have also been quite a question of them figuring out when the zodiac year itself begins. How do they come upon that date of deciding that the zodiac year will begin with what does now become Chinese New Year?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Now, everyone loves a Zodiac, and it feels especially true this time of year, with particularly the Chinese Zodiac. But no such thing as a silly question, what exactly is the Chinese Zodiac?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
And is it also influenced by the fact that many of those people in the rural countryside, they're cultivating rice. I mean, it's agriculture. So the seasons and knowing the length of the days, that's also crucial to their survival.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
That must have been a massive job, considering the size of Han Dynasty China. And as you mentioned earlier, it's not a fixed calendar. It changes every year. So then the bureaucracy, the administration to distribute to all the people who... who knew it, you know, knowing what the situation was that year, a bit of a logistical nightmare, surely?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
So we have this link between Chinese New Year and the zodiac, the year of the various animals stretching back 2,000 years, John. So it's extraordinary and it seems to endure. But something I also want to pick up there that you mentioned was you mentioned client states or client kingdoms of Han Dynasty China like Korea.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
So did they also export the Chinese zodiac and their ways of thinking beyond the borders of present-day China?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Were there any potential deviations? So I can imagine, would the year of the snake still be the year of the snake, let's say in Southeast Asia, or the year of the horse or so on? Or did they sometimes bring in their own animals into this story and the meaning and importance of the zodiac spread further afield?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
John, you've performed heroically today because I know that your main area of interest is actually a bit further to the west with Babylonian astronomy and the origins of the western zodiac, Taurus and Aries and so on and so forth. However, I want to bring in that now. Can you see any connections or contact between the Chinese zodiac and the western ancient Babylonian zodiac?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
So it's not a completely hostile bull versus ox kind of thing. There is an attempt to incorporate this other zodiac with the zodiac in China that they have been accustomed to and for hundreds of years by that point.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
But it's interesting you say that, John, because as you mentioned right at the beginning, the Chinese zodiac not actually being a zodiac and not actually linked to the lunar path. So it's interesting to think how they incorporate that belief system into the Chinese zodiac belief system and that idea of hybridization. I must also ask, would you argue that that hybridization, is it successful?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Does it endure? Or do they decide, actually, we'll just keep with what we've known?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Is it always that magic number, John? Is it always that magic number of 12, whether it's a zodiac officially, or as in the case of the Chinese zodiac, it's not actually a zodiac?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Going the other way, do we know much about the Chinese zodiac going westwards?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
I mean, in the previous answer, you also mentioned the coming of Buddhism and how it influences that change and the bringing of the new ideas. Then you've also got Islam there. Does it highlight the importance of religion in the story of the Chinese zodiac? Is that closely linked with the story?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
I must also say, as you mentioned, as the Zodiac endures with Buddhism and Islam and all these various dynasties of China down through the last few millennia, I mean, it must be one of the greatest enduring events aspects of Chinese culture, the zodiac and the Chinese New Year festival, to think that it's been there for more than 2,000 years.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
I guess more than that if we talk about the origins with the branches and the stems in the Shang Dynasty. But it has still endured, and that's fascinating, the strength of it.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Well, John, that's a lovely thought and statement to leave it on. And it just goes to me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast and happy new year. Happy new year to everyone. Yes. Thank you. Well, there you go. There was Professor John Steele giving you an introduction to the Chinese Zodiac. I hope you enjoyed today's episode.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Thank you for listening to The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. And don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
I mean, from an outsider looking in, it does feel like that with the numbers 60 and 12 and animals only being a small part of it, that in the Chinese tradition, it's almost, and forgive me if I'm slightly wrong here, but it feels like layers of an onion because it is very detailed, dare I say complicated at first to get your head around these various parts of this whole system. Yeah.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
2025 welcomes the year of the snake, the sixth animal of the 12 at the heart of the Chinese zodiac. If you are born a snake, you are considered mysterious yet charismatic, calm yet determined. To many, it's all just fun superstition. Regardless, knowing your Chinese zodiac animal symbol and what it represents has become incredibly popular with people across the world.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Well, John, you're going to help us peel away that onion for us layer by layer. But let's go back to ancient China and the origins of the Chinese zodiac. I know there's so many stories. For instance, let's say in ancient Greece with various cities, you have like a mythological origin story and then a historical origin story. Is it the same with the origins of the Chinese zodiac?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
I was born in the year of the rat, so I love how that story of the great race and how the rat takes a piggyback on the ox and then jumps off to be the first one across the line, hence why the rat is at the start of the cycle, and then the ox, and then I can't remember the rest, but we'll talk about those animals in a bit.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
But it's interesting, so we know its origins are in the ancient period, so 2,000 years ago, as you mentioned earlier, John, but pinning it down exactly, do we have a rough estimate or can we see when it starts getting integrated into Chinese society?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
It's part of your identity, a fun fact to share with friends. If anyone wants to know, I'm a rat and couldn't be prouder. But this is a tradition that has endured for more than a millennia. So how exactly did this zodiac come about? How did it relate to wider ancient Chinese astronomy and philosophy, their lunar calendar? And why these particular 12 animals? It's The Ancients on History Hit.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
John, forgive me for being dumb, but I'm also going to get you to re-explain because you mentioned the branches and the stems there and how 12 and then the 10 and then that leads up to the 60. So can you just explain to us once again how those numbers, how the branches and the stems are linked to the 60 together, please?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Right. So when it once again reunites together is when the cycle begins again, and that's 60 years.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
Thank you for explaining that. I needed that a bit more because there was quite a lot of information right at the start. So now I understand that. And that tradition, you know, the 12 and the 10, and the animals are just put onto the 12, basically. They're added onto that 12.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
And the Shang Dynasty, as you mentioned, before the Han Dynasty. So it's very interesting to hear how ancient the stems and the branches and the 60 pattern is.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
But it's a fun fact, isn't it? Almost halfway between today and the Shang Dynasty, the animals were incorporated. So it's amazing to think, as you mentioned, for how long continuously that cycle was there in ancient China before the addition of these animals.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
And John, I mean, how much astrology, I guess also, I guess, philosophy, Chinese astrology and philosophy is really entwined in the 10 stems and the 12 branches and the animals later on?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today, as Chinese New Year approaches, we're exploring these ancient origins of what is arguably the most famous part of that festival, the Chinese Zodiac. Our guest today is Professor John Steele from Brown University, an expert on ancient astronomy and lunar calendars. Now, John, he has a particular interest in ancient Babylonian astronomy.
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
I won't go into too much detail, but you mentioned the phases there for the five phases. Can you once again kind of explain the whole purpose of these phases and why they're phases rather than elements?
The Ancients
The Chinese Zodiac
But it does kind of convey it much better, doesn't it? This idea that you're not always fire or you're not always wood or metal and so on. You know, it can change depending on life situations, on behavior and so on. And that goes back, I guess, to that philosophical thinking in ancient China.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Oh, Moody, that's a good taster for where we're going when you mentioned the word Scorpio there. We won't get there quite yet, but that's very exciting for the ultimate destination of our chat. I'd like to ask a bit about these early astronomers a little bit more.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
When they're making these observations in the night sky, do they have any equivalent of a telescope, or can they identify stars and planets just with the naked eye?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
This was Dilibat, the Sumerian name for Venus, the shining planet strongly associated with the goddess Ishtar. Balasi was in awe of Venus and the rest of this great divine world above, but he was also annoyed that Only recently, another scholar had mistakenly identified Venus as Mercury. How this scholar could have made such an error was beyond ballassy.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
It's amazing how, for someone who knows nothing about astronomy and needs to get out more of London and go somewhere very remote, like the Scottish Highlands, to actually have a look and do some stargazing, I guess how easy it is once an astronomer gets their eye in to understand what's a star and what's a planet and understand the differences. And did they name those planets as well?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
You've said already Venus and Mars, but do we know what they named those planets?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
The astronomers themselves, the people who were gathering that information for Kings, as you mentioned there, Moody, do we know much about themselves, about who those people were? Were they considered quite special, almost kind of communicating what the gods had supposedly written in the sky?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Sometimes they feel disrespected. That's so interesting. And also the fact that in some of the texts that you have, Moody, it's not just, as you say, the reports. There's no personal messaging in them. You have letters from... from astronomers themselves, from these court people themselves. So you can actually get a sense, almost like the Vindolanda tablets on the Roman frontier in Hadrian's Wall.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
You get the actual voice of this figure who was living thousands of years ago.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
The planets looked completely different to the naked eye. Whereas Venus was the brightest object in the sky after the moon, Mercury was a minuscule dot almost impossible to find if you didn't know where to look. Worst of all, this astronomer had then proceeded to misinterpret this celestial omen from the gods and sent the wrong prediction to the king. The moron.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
letter like the one with the baby or the one as you say we have one astronomer slating off another for misidentifying those two planets it was almost as valuable if not more than the tablet we'll get to later which which says like alexander the great died on that day you know for completely different reasons but they're they're so interesting and and often you don't get those surviving in the archaeological record i'd like to ask one more question surrounding omens before we move on to that next stage that you hinted at earlier in this kind of development of astronomy
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Which is also, you mentioned the word earlier, when talking about the Assyrian king Ashurbanipal and his astronomer Aedes, having these omen handbooks. Can you tell us a bit about these handbooks that they developed?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Such an error had to be punished and corrected. And so, Balassi had written to the king. Imprinting his message on a clay tablet, it was the ancient Mesopotamian equivalent of a brutal peer review. He slated his colleague for not knowing the cycles or revolutions of Venus. He labelled him an ignoramus.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
I know we haven't really mentioned the name Babylon too much in our chat so far. But I know in your book, you mentioned people called the Kassites. And are they strongly linked in the kind of the creation of writing all this down or the creation of this handbook with the omens at this time? I want to kind of bring Babylon into the conversation here. And I guess maybe this is a way we can do it.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Understood. One more quick tangent before we move on in time. You've seen with the interpretations, do they have quite a lot of meaning behind left versus right in these two?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Unfortunately for this unnamed Assyrian astronomer, the tablet has survived and will forever be his legacy. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring the fascinating story of astronomy in ancient Mesopotamia and how this scientific field evolved over more than a thousand years. Early on, astronomy was linked primarily to omens.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Which I guess is as to why that handbook seems to be so popular that so many different cultures can pick it up and understand it with these different kings. Moody, let's move on. And you mentioned it earlier as we get to the first millennium BCE, but I hope you don't mind if we refresh that.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
at this moment in our chat, and if you wouldn't mind explaining it again very quickly, how we get to the next stage. How did the reading of Omens lay the groundwork for more scientific observational astronomy? And I've got a little quote from your book where you say, the leap from interpreting phenomena purely as divine signs to interpreting phenomena purely as astronomical phenomena.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Comets, eclipses, stars and planets were interpreted as signs left in the night sky by the gods to be deciphered by skilled astronomers who would then predict what this meant would happen on Earth. But over time, these observations were no longer just used to predict events on Earth, but also to predict future astronomical phenomena.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
These are human-generated algorithms that take generations to create. And as you say, you don't know if they're actually doing it deliberately, but hey presto, you get something absolutely amazing for the end of it, which are these astronomical diaries and what they revealed.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
I must admit, though, one more thing before we kind of go on to particular discoveries they make, mathematical discoveries they make, and we will get to the word zodiac very soon. But having had a look at some of these astronomical diary entries, what strikes me is like so many of them, they are just so boring. They are so mundane. It's just like there were clouds in the sky today. That was it.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
It's funny. It's funny. But I guess that's also the magic of them.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
When the next eclipse would take place, the movements of the planets, and so on. A much more mathematical form of astronomy. To explain all of this much better than I ever could, I was delighted to interview Dr. Moody Al Rashid, an Assyriologist and Assistant Fellow at Wolfson College, Oxford.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Are these observational records also important? Because if one of them mentions an eclipse or something, and then you look at other texts that may mention an eclipse, if you go to Alexander the Great, I think they talk about an eclipse before one of his key battles. And it's also mentioned in the diary.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Are these diaries also good for pinning down dates in ancient history, in ancient Mesopotamian history for when they occurred?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
So as it starts to kind of go from less interpretation to more predicting when the next one will happen, you know, over these generations of noting down these events that happen in the sky, should we talk about some of the key developments? I've got in my notes the goal year method, first of all. Should we talk about that first?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Moody is an expert on ancient Mesopotamian medicine, technology, science and astronomy, and is a fantastic speaker. From omen handbooks to the origins of the zodiac in Babylonia, it was a privilege to delve into the world of Mesopotamian astronomy with Moody, and I hope you enjoy. Moody, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Well, let's go to this completely innovative way of doing things, Moody. Is this where we get the introduction of the famous Zodiac?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
So do we know what mathematical equations they then made once they've established the zodiac? And I mean, what are the key examples of this new mathematical astronomy that you see in places like Babylon in the latter half of the first millennium BC?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
And to talk about, well, astronomy in particular, but it feels like it falls into ancient Mesopotamian science, which encompasses so many different fascinating fields. And I'm presuming astronomy is a large part of that.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
But still, it's amazing in its own right, I guess, to have those cuneiform texts surviving and to see how differently they're approaching astronomy to earlier texts. I guess that's if a tablet has an astronomical mathematical equation in it, you can determine that this is from a later period than one which is talking about an omen.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
So I guess you can also, you can learn more about the cuneiform tablets themselves from what's being written on them.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
But I also think it's important, what you also highlighted there, and we touched on it at the start, how it's not as if astronomy is one field, medicine is another field, mathematics not to do with astronomy is another field. They're all interlinked. And that was a great example, as you mentioned there, that medicine interlinked with the zodiac development.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Is mathematics generally in ancient Babylon and Mesopotamia, does that advance because of these astronomical developments? Do you see mathematics not to do with astronomy also advance that time period too?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
But it sounds like what you also mentioned there, Moody, I mean, as time goes on with the Hellenistic period and after Alexander the Great and the Seleucids, and then you mentioned the Parthians, does that kind of mathematical astronomy centred in places like Babylon, does that, as you've hinted at there with cuneiform being restricted to temples and so on, does that form astronomy?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
I don't want to use the word die out, but does it kind of fade away?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Are they all interlinked in a way? Can sometimes medicine be interlinked with astronomy? And you mentioned how mathematics is linked with astronomy there. Do we see the blurring of the lines in many cases?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
What a record, though. And as you say, the legacy of Babylonian science is very much alive and kicking today. Moody, this has been absolutely brilliant. We've covered a lot of ground, but I do know that naturally you know a lot more about this than I do.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
So is there anything that you'd like to mention about Mesopotamian astronomy or Babylonian astronomy in particular that you also really want to highlight before we wrap up that we maybe haven't covered as much as we perhaps should have?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Absolutely. Getting into the mindset, almost like the people who didn't know what was lurking right at the bottom of the oceans, you know, the same with the skies above. Moody, this has been absolutely brilliant. Last but certainly not least, you have written a book which talks about astronomy and Mesopotamia, all that we've covered, and so much more. This is called?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Brilliant. Well, Moody, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Moody Al-Rashid introducing you to ancient Mesopotamian astronomy. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you leave us a rating as well, we'd really appreciate that.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
But that's also important to highlight straight away, isn't it, Moody, with Mesopotamian history covering thousands of years. With the story of astronomy, I'm guessing you also see what's so interesting, and with these other fields of science too, is an evolution in thinking over those hundreds and thousands of years.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Let's start at the beginning. The field of astronomy, does it begin in Mesopotamia?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
That's amazing that you have that text though, surviving from like 5,000 years ago, mentioning Venus. But do we know then roughly for an origins point of written astronomy in Mesopotamia, of whereabouts in Mesopotamia, and which people are making these earliest observations?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Once again, I apologize because it's quite an overarching question because I know the term Mesopotamian, it can be differed into all those different cultures within, like as you said, the Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, and so on. But is there a regular theme in how they understood their world, especially when they're looking at the celestial world above them?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
And so how does that information let people like yourselves understand more, let's say, about this earlier stage in written astronomy with what they thought about the stars and what they saw above and how it related to this idea of omens and messages from the gods almost, I guess?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
And so do we have quite a detailed surviving record then about how these early astronomers, if they saw an event in the sky, you mentioned they're in eclipse or something similar. Do we know much about how they then went on in this early period, then interpreting them as omens?
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Nineveh, 2,700 years ago. A man looks up at the night sky. In an age where light pollution was minimal, he sees countless stars high above him. His name is Balassi, and he is an astronomer, serving in the court of the famous Assyrian king, Esaraddon. Amongst the twinkling stars, he can also see his favourite celestial object, a light that shines incredibly bright in the night sky.
The Ancients
Origins of Astronomy
Right, because I was then going to ask, you know, we've seen these signs in the sky, or as you say, what they think is signs in the sky, but you know, just the natural phenomena. There is a basis of science behind it, and then into creating these omens and saying what someone should do or what someone shouldn't do.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Is this the story that ends brutally with one of them having their carriage, their royal carriage, in the street and they see their dead father in the road and then they just have the carriage run over the corpse of their dad?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
In a recent poll we released on Spotify, we asked which overlooked civilisation you wanted us to cover next, and the Etruscans ended up on top. It was the Etruscans who the Romans would topple as the leading power in central Italy. Stories about which would become embellished with myths and heroic legends retold by later Roman writers like Livy. So what do we know about the Etruscan decline?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Is this more of a thing that actually if it's Servius Tullius' daughter and Servius Tullius was a Roman that she's married to an Etruscan and that has also influenced her becoming well as I said in Livy's agenda her becoming in their eyes barbaric and that's what she's done in that case.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
What does the literature tell us? And also, what does the archaeology tell us? How do the Etruscans go from major players in the western Mediterranean to subjects of Rome? That is what we're going to cover today. It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and joining me to talk through the fall of the Etruscans is the author and Etruscan expert, Dr Lucy Shipley.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
such an important time isn't it this is the link to the origins of the roman republic the expulsion of the kings and the important thing there that the king that's being pushed out is an etruscan king with his son and said that is seen as you mentioned the rape of lucretia there all seen as the origins of the roman republic but as you've also hinted at right there that is not the end of the story the etruscans are linked to the expulsion of the kings because they are the kings
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
But that's not the end for the Etruscans. Now you see this ripple-on effect as it now, the line has been drawn, the line in the sand has been drawn, there is conflict ahead.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
It's interesting though, isn't it? All these stories about the creation of an independent Rome, or at least in Roman eyes, how closely linked they are to the Etruscans. And Tarquinius Superbus, he's still a massive figure, as you've highlighted there. He's gathering in allies. And I remember, there's another great story now, isn't there?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Because they go back to Rome, they lay siege to Rome, and my mind thinks of that soldier holding the bridge, or Horatius.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
It's another famous story, isn't it? So talk to us before the Romans then start consolidating their position. How do the Etruscans try to reverse this expulsion of their king from Rome?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Now, I've interviewed Lucy once before, two years ago, all about the origins and the rise of the Etruscans in the early first millennium BC. We will put a link to that episode in the description of this one because this is almost a continuation of that episode. We've done the origins and rise, now we're doing the zenith and fall of the Etruscans.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
We actually know it is a bit, a hundred years or so after what we've been talking about.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
We're going to start this episode by looking at the Etruscans at the height of their power and then how it ultimately came crashing down in the face of Rome. Lucy was brilliant. She knows so much and is so enthusiastic about all things Etruscans. And I really do hope you enjoy. Lucy, it is wonderful to have you back on the podcast.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
With all of that, and said that slow expansion of Rome in its heartlands, you know, up the River Tiber and in that area, you mentioned at the beginning, I mean, nearer the beginning, how you've got the Etruscan heartlands to the north, but you've also got Etruscan south of Rome too. So it almost feels like this line is being created, kind of splitting that world in two.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
I mean, does it seem to suggest at that same time, From the archaeology, from the sources we have surviving that, are the Etruscans being stretched elsewhere? That it's not just the Romans that you've also got, let's say Greeks in southern Italy or other Italians like Samnites or so on, or the Celts in the north.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
You're more than welcome. I think last time we chatted it was some two years ago now, wasn't it? And we covered the earlier stage of the Etruscans, their origins and their rise to supremacy. But this is the other end. Is it Etruscans versus Rome or is it more complicated than that when we're studying their fall?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
I mean, does it seem to suggest that the Etruscan world is starting to be stretched a bit with other players? And as you say, it's not one united world. There are cities having independent choices of who they're siding with and so on.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
This is this thing of like soft times breed soft people kind of vibe, isn't it, that you see time and time again, right? Yeah, exactly.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Absolutely. If you're at the top of the hill, you're not as hungry as the person climbing the hill and stuff like that. But I mean, does the archaeology reflect that too? Because I do appreciate we've got the literary sources and naturally some of these literary sources are very biased, pro-Roman, like Livy, as we've discussed.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
But you mentioned also with Marzabotto, I mean, does the archaeology seem to suggest that these external factors, they are... They are wreaking havoc on some of these Etruscan places. There's evidence of destruction. Or perhaps is there other factors like, is there evidence in the archaeology that the economic trade links that the Etruscans once had, that those links are fading too?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Yes, let's do that. Let's kick it off with the Etruscans. Set the scene with us, Lucy. Who were the Etruscans and define their world when they are at their peak?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
You see that transition, really interesting transition, which begs the question, what do we know about that whole process of Rome going from taking control of Veii at the beginning of the 4th century BC to them becoming dominant over basically the whole of the Etruscan world, the Etruscans particularly in their heartland in northern Italy, in places like Tarquinia and further afield?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
So that's how the Romans take it over. It's so interesting how once again that tactic of a power seeking expansion notices in the targeted area that they want a city at internal divisions and they take advantage of that by backing the person who's more amenable to them and then they take over. It's really interesting. I see that again and again throughout history.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
So that is the Roman takeover and from then on the Etruscans are part of the growing Roman Republic as they then go on fighting the Samnites and then Pyrrhus and then Hannibal and the Carthaginians and so on. But as that time goes on, I must also ask, we've talked about like the fall of the Etruscans.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Maybe it's the fall of the Etruscans as an independent player on the Italian peninsula and further afield. But does Etruscan culture endure with the Romans when they're under Roman rule? Can we actually say they actually fall? Absolutely.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Well, I mean, there you go. It's such an interesting one. They said the fall of the Etruscans, but actually the legacy of the Etruscans, as you say, could be another podcast episode in its own right. And I'm also really glad that you mentioned some of those really interesting artefacts. Like I've got up on my screen now, my other screen, the liver of Piacenza.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
I mean, that's an extraordinary artefact. I've also got the tomb of the Infernal Chariot up on another tab too, because I've got to have that up. And the tomb of the leopards, of course. So it just shows the Etruscans, extraordinary, and the story of their...
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
therefore as the Romans rise but also these other external factors too I'm really glad that we could cover it on the podcast today Lucy it just goes to me to say thank you so much you've been an absolute force of nature just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today oh thank you so much Well, there you go.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
There was Dr. Lucy Shipley talking through the fall of the Etruscans and the rise of Rome as the new dominant power in central Italy more than 2,000 years ago. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. I hope you enjoyed it. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Also on Spotify, we're going to be creating more and more polls every So you can vote in those polls what types of episodes you would like to see us do in the future. We look at those polls, we see what the results are, and we do decide future episodes sometimes on those results, like this one today on the Etruscans.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Now, don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Because that's the first thing that strikes out. Demaratus of Corinth sounds like a Greek. I'm guessing he was a Greek, yet he's involved with the Etruscans in 600 BC.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
So 600 BC, they've got strong connections with Greece. And you mentioned this particular figure from Corinth. So what is the state of the Etruscan world? Is it ruled by a king or is it influential to cities? What do we know about the whole makeup of the Etruscan world?
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
When someone says ancient Italy, many would think immediately of Rome, of this mighty ancient superpower that ruled the Mediterranean for hundreds of years.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Before we head south, Lucy, I guess very quickly, tangentially, if they're going north, that must mean, because we talk about interactions with the Greeks, and we'll get to the Romans in a minute as well, but the Celts as well, the Gauls, they must have big connections with the Celts as well. I remember doing an episode about that.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
But there was also a time in ancient history when Rome wasn't the Italian superpower that we regularly think of today, but in fact was dominated by another neighbouring people, a people centred to the north in present-day Tuscany that were, for several centuries, a major player in the western Mediterranean, the Etruscans.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
But then let's go back to Italy and so south of those heartlands of the Etruscans. So what is this relationship that the Etruscans have with, let's say, Rome and that area south of Rome too? Because that's also big at this time.
The Ancients
Fall of the Etruscans
Today, they're seen as a rather mysterious ancient Italian culture, but the archaeological record for them is rich, particularly in their burials, in their tomb paintings, in their pottery, and so on. Their popularity amongst you ancients listeners is high.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Caroline has recently written a new book exploring this deep time revolution in America and it was wonderful to get her on the podcast. We're going to explore everything from 4 billion year old rock formations in northeast Canada to 500 million year old trilobites and of course, dinosaur remains.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
You mentioned in passing earlier Cretaceous. So with those key dinosaur periods in deep time, so millions of years ago, is it in America? Because it feels like the main areas, aren't they? It's the Cretaceous, the last period, which ends with the meteorite, the Jurassic beforehand, Jurassic Park and so on. Triassic before that, but that's more the rise of the dinosaurs.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Is it Jurassic and Cretaceous, those periods where I'm guessing it's the richest fossil records from in America?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
We'll be examining the dinosaur craze that seized America through the 19th century as great sea beasts and dinosaur remains start to be discovered, and much more. Forget Jurassic Park, think Jurassic America. Caroline, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
And it's that dark side of many of these stories, not just in America, but across the world, where deep archaeology can be twisted for political means. But it's important to highlight regardless, isn't it? I would actually quite like to talk about those sea discoveries, those sea fossils, because you mentioned earlier Mosasaurs, which they are one of those big sea beasts, aren't they?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
And this is something to get your head around today. So the Midwest, you think, of course, land as far as the eye can see. But back there, they are discovering these massive sea beasts that lurk beneath the waves. I guess smaller beasts, ammonites, those kind of ammonite things, but also the big ones too.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Well, this is the next thing I was going to ask is that as news spreads out from beyond America that look at what these amazing things that are coming out of the ground, is there just almost a rush to get out there to learn more about these discoveries that are being made?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
We'll definitely go back to explore more of that fossil hunting story and some particular really interesting examples of that race to unearth these fossils and who these people were. But as you hinted at there, deep time, it doesn't end with the end of the dinosaurs. Obviously, it continues there millions of years before... the first humans in North America.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
So far, you've given the sense that it's almost layer upon layer upon layer, and then you get to the dinosaurs. But then you mentioned there that some dinosaur bones were at the surface. So what about the animals that follow the dinosaurs? How easy were they to discover as well? What do we know about their story in the 19th century discoveries?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Now, I'm used to on the podcast sometimes delving into particular monuments or focusing in on a particular period of ancient history or prehistory. This one feels like we're going to be talking in millions of years and so on. Is this the story of actually how old North America is and the misconceptions there were about that in previous centuries?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
I'm sure it was, but that also hints at an important point. So no matter what era we're talking about, Jurassic, Cretaceous, and of course there are changes in the shape of the continent and geology and all that. But, you know, you've got the Bering Strait, there's a clear water divide between Asia and America.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
But back then, before the ice sheets come down, it was possible, you know, for animals long before humans to venture, I guess, be westwards into Asia and then Europe that way.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Let's go back to this age of the dinosaurs in America and these early discoveries and focus on some particular discoveries and the people behind them. When are the earliest dinosaur fossils discovered? And what's the process behind the discoveries? Because you mentioned plantations and stuff like that, is it?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
almost accidental by plantation owners and then these things happen and they call someone and they come in? What's the story of the discovering of these first fossils?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
And who are some of the people in America who then hear about this and then oversee the excavation of the dig? Or almost kind of a Jefferson-like figure who then hears about it and then sponsors groups of people to go out and find more?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
And does it almost become a bit of a competition, a tournament with rival groups trying to find the next big monsters that have just been unveiled in this area of America?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Is it then that as they start digging deeper, you said Cretaceous, then Jurassic, how long is it before you get people discovering things like trilobites and then realising that there's no more to it? How long does it take to go from those top layers to those earliest animal remains?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
So by the early 20th century, just how different have people's, not just in America, but also in Europe and elsewhere, have people's perception of North America? How significantly in that hundred years or so have mindsets, attitudes changed towards North America because of that discovery of deep time?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Yes, absolutely. Well, let's focus in on North America. And first off, how old do we therefore think the North American continent is understood to be?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Lastly, it seems very important and timely to bring it up today. Is this rich prehistoric history of the North American continent and its varying environments, is this part of the reason why North America is so rich in minerals and fossil fuels today? Natural resources that continue to be used aplenty in North America today?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Caroline, this has been a fantastic chat. Last but certainly not least, your book, All About This and More, it is called?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
From trilobites to T-Rex. Brilliant, Caroline. This has been fantastic. And it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Well, there you go. There was Professor Caroline Winterer highlighting the story of deep time America and how fossils uncovered in the 19th century began to reveal just how ancient America really was. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening to The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. Lastly, if you want any more ancient history videos and clips in the meantime, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan. Now that's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
So for 4 billion years, those rocks have been there. They haven't been modified or changed, and you can still see them today?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Do we also have other famous names? I might think immediately of Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon. Do these well-known geological features in the USA today, do they have their origins billions of years back as well?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
The New World, a term that for centuries was applied to the Americas. But by the 19th century, this idea that America was a young continent compared to Europe and Asia, well, it was becoming obsolete. The remains of great ancient creatures of terrifying beasts were starting to be unearthed. Suddenly, the reality of just how old their continent was began to dawn on Americans.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
And with this unravelling of thought, as you say, as more information comes to light and the technological advancements that come with it, so that these people can start realising just how old the North American continent was, what were the main types of materials that they had available to learn more about this stuff and just how old some of these things were?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
I mean, how can you tell that particular rocks could be some four billion years old?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
You mentioned there trilobites as well. I would love to do an episode just about trilobites in the future. I think trilobites are fascinating little things.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
But you've kind of preempted what I wanted to talk about next, which is, okay, if we're talking about the time now where there's life in the North American continent, and let's say over the hundreds of millions of years in the past, can you give us a sense – I know there are different eras, like the time of the dinosaurs, the Ice Age more recently, and the trilobites further back –
The Ancients
Jurassic America
A history more ancient than anyone could ever have imagined. A place of primordial natural beauty. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
But do we get a sense, I mean, are there different, dare I say, kind of keystone species that we should just highlight? 800 million years, think of this, 600 million years. Could you kind of give us a sense of that and how we should imagine that?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
I remember watching a show when I was much younger called Prehistoric Park, and I think they went to Carboniferous, and it was almost where the insects were much bigger than they are today, like giant dragonflies, centipedes, and scorpions. Is that from that time period, roughly?
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Today we're exploring the story of Deep Time America, how in the 19th century people began unearthing countless fossils of ancient animals and dinosaurs that revealed how the New World might in fact be the oldest world of all, challenging the commonly held view of the time that the world was in fact only 6,000 years old. Now our guest today is Professor Caroline Winterer from Stanford University.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
It's almost kind of a reversal, isn't it? That at the time, there were a lot of people who were collecting antiquities from Egypt and Greece and Disney and bringing them to Britain or France or whatever, and they become part of the exhibitions. And America is almost a bit late. But it is almost a contrast to that.
The Ancients
Jurassic America
Now America is front of the queue with things that actually they're discovering in their own land. Look what we can bring to the party kind of thing, I guess.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
486 BC. The Persian Empire is the largest in the world, stretching from the borders of India to the Aegean Sea. And a new king sits on its throne, eager to display his military might. With revolts and unruliness on the fringes of his large empire, this new young king has a lot to deal with. But soon enough, he would turn his attention westwards.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
So it feels like they're elevating the importance of the Greeks in the Persian mines.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And it also highlights, as this chat goes on, we will highlight, of course, the Herodotian narrative, but then, of course, the Persian version, which, Lloyd, I know you're very, very keen on to highlight, actually. What's myth? What's reality? What's based on historical evidence? And so on and so forth.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
I must ask, because when someone thinks of the Second Persian War, you'll get names like Thermopylae come up, and then famous movies of the recent couple of decades, like 300, which, Ward, I know you've done a film review of with History Hit on the YouTube channel. But in that movie and in others, it seems to be conveyed that the army that Xerxes ultimately gathers is massive.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And it comes from all corners of the Persian Empire. Before we delve into numbers and actually the route he takes, logistically, to gather an army for Xerxes, I mean, do we know how long it takes for Xerxes to put together a force for ultimately returning to Greece and presumably bigger than the last one of his father?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
to cities who had resisted and irritated his father before him, Greek cities like Athens, Sparta, and their allies. This king's name was Xerxes, and he would launch the largest invasion of Greece ever seen to that point in history. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
It's funny, isn't it, how we talked in the last chat about the trousers and how a big part of the story is the clothing that the Persians are wearing compared to the Greeks in the Herodotian narrative. And as you say on inscriptions as well, my mind immediately goes to how they portray, I think it's the Eastern Scythians or the Saka, which live in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
They have massive pointed hats. Huge Smurf hats. Huge Smurf kind of hats as well, right? Just wants to mention the Saka hats too.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Today we are continuing our deep dive into the Persian Wars with Dr. Roald Cananedijk from Oxford University and Professor Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones from Cardiff University.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
In the previous episode, we covered the story of the First Persian War, how Persia's expansion west into Anatolia, present-day Turkey, led them into contact with the Greek world, how Athens aided an Ionian-Greek revolt against the Persians, which in turn led the Persians to launch a punitive expedition against the Athenians, culminating in the legendary Battle of Marathon, recorded by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Does this bring us nicely into that whole story of earth and water and what this actually is?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
But although the Athenians won at Marathon, the Persians ultimately returned. A decade later, a new Persian king was on the throne seeking great conquests. And he, Xerxes, had his eyes set on Greece. This second Persian invasion of Greece is the subject of today's episode.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
So Xerxes has gathered this army, but with the previous invasion under his father's lieutenants, it had been kind of that island hopping, going from Western Anatolia, taking each of the islands in their path and then Euboea and then being defeated at Marathon. But how does Xerxes go about invading Greece this time round? Because rule, is it quite a different route he takes?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
We'll explore the story of how Xerxes came to power, how he amassed a great force for this new invasion, wanting to surpass his father Darius. We'll delve into the stories of famous battles such as Thermopylae and Salamis, and explore famous myths surrounding them. This was a really entertaining discussion with both Ruel and Lloyd. It was a pleasure to listen to both of them. Let's get into it.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
He's been able to cross the Hellespont. He's been able to carve this canal through the Athos Peninsula. And the Persian army is slowly and maybe slowly making its way through northern Greece and down. Is it not a case of every Greek city-state or kingdom they come into contact with is straight away putting up resistance, kind of in the idea of Marathon and the Athenians before?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
What should we be thinking of when they're going past places like, well, the kingdom of Macedon, which would later be the homeland of Alexander the Great in what is today northern Greece? What should we be thinking as this massive army and navy starts wading its way, starts marching through these lands?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
If you have many Greek city-states and kingdoms, like in Macedonia's case, siding with the Persians, which Greek city-states decide actually to resist this army and we ultimately get to that famous place of Thermopylae? Ruled, what do we know about that when there finally is a standoff between the Persian, you know, this grand army and navy and an opposing Greek force?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
In the first episode, we covered the first Persian invasion of Greece culminating in the Battle of Marathon. That's 490 BC. To get to the Persians returning, almost like the sequel, we go a few years later. What's the setting in, let's say, the mid-480s BC that will ultimately spur the Persians to return to Greece?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And so what is this force then that ultimately does get sent up to the hot gates of Thermopylae that there is so many legends around today, almost like the first clashing point between the Persian force and those Greeks that did decide to oppose Persia rather than either stay neutral or side with the Persians?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And they sent their king, Leonidas, right?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Let's just talk through the overview of this clash between Xerxes and Leonidas and his allies and Themistocles with the fleet and so on, because it feels important to the story. So what is the story of Thermopylae and Artemisium?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
You did it recently. And so we're also focused, that's a region just south of the pass, and Phocian is the name given to people. Hence, like, Thessaly's the region to the north, hence why you get the name Thessalian for those people, just so we know. Yeah.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Parthia, so that's kind of like the Caspian Sea area, isn't it?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Oh, the so-called, the arrows will blot out the sun, which has come down.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
All right, guys. Okay, we can't do too much on Thermopylae or we'll become a Thermopylae-only episode, but it is so interesting. I did have one question, and this was actually me thinking about it the last couple of days, which is that figure of Ephialtes in the story.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
But as you've mentioned, Raoul, it may even be that there wasn't even a figure because people in the Persian army probably knew of that past. But if there was a figure called Ephialtes, who was a local shepherd, you also mentioned that that army's been there for five or six days by that time. And besides it would be taking up all of the food from the nearby area.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Is there any way you can feel a bit sympathetic if Ephialtes was there thinking, I just want this army or these armies off of my land. And the best way is just to get them round so that they can get through as quickly as possible. So I can actually live in this area of the world.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
So Xerxes himself is not really involved in the first Persian invasion or expedition to Greece, is he? He's elsewhere in the empire at that time.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Yeah, that is true. And indeed, you always get the reverse of it with Alexander the Great in the Persian gates more than 100 years later and a local shepherd showing him a route around a Persian defence there. But that's another story entirely. So the fleet has retreated from Artemisium. Most of the Greek army has retreated from Thermopylae, apart from Leonidas and those who stayed with him.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Is that basically the floodgates have opened now, Xerxes' army is south of this pass, and now the Greek city-states... and especially those who stayed neutral as well up to that point, they've got a choice to make. This army is now in their lands, it's going to be going through their lands, taking up the resources. Delphi, sacred Delphi, will be under pressure too.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Is this almost the floodgates have opened and there's a flurry of activity happening as soon as Xerxes gets south of that pass?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
It's interesting as well. I don't think they sack Delphi, do they, the Persians? They kind of go to Athens, but that's... Yes, they don't bother to go further inland.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
We've done Thermopylae and Artemisium, but then we get to Salamis. And this is almost, it almost feels on par with not more than Marathon as this kind of defining moment, because you've set it up so nicely, this idea that Athens has been sacked already, like they've been forced to go to this island nearby and they've seen their city burn.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And then you have this massive Titanic sea battle, which is portrayed, it's this Athenian victory, isn't it? So it's almost a victory from the jaws of defeat. I mean, what do we know about the Battle of Salamis?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And the Phoenicians, they're from Lebanon, Tyre area, the eastern Mediterranean. They've got a long history of being brilliant seafarers. Carthage and so on is Phoenician heritage.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Shall we cover quickly then also this really interesting figure of Artemisia, the queen of Halicarnassus, who's almost kind of one of these allies of the Persians, Xerxes' fleet. And she has a sizable contingent of ships, doesn't she? Five ships. Five ships. She's only got five ships. Okay, we'll just put up a hand with five fingers saying she's only got five ships. Okay, fair enough.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
But she seems to have a big role in the narrative that Herodotus tells us, doesn't she?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Well, it's so interesting. And actually, we don't have time to do the story post-Salamis, that will have to be for another episode, because I know there's still more to the story with The Battle of Plataea, which we already mentioned earlier, and I think there's Mycale as well. There's a lot more still to go.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
However, if we kind of wrap up this episode by exploring kind of the importance of Salamis in this second Persian invasion by Xerxes, what is its importance? It is just a naval battle. The army of Xerxes is still there in its prime, having just sacked Athens, but the Persians have lost this naval battle. Why is Salamis so significant in the course of this war?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
You mentioned the Greeks there. And as you guys both highlighted in the previous episode, we shouldn't be imagining the Greek world at this time of just being mainland Greece. You've got Greek city-states, Hellenic speaking in Western Anatolia, Black Sea, all the way to Sicily and Southern Italy, even Southern France.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And then, of course, the legacy of Salamis like Marathon, become so entwined with the story of Athens, I guess with then the empire building, even down to that kind of idea of sea power. Is it almost, is Salamis always seen as kind of this focal point where it starts in a weird way, the Athenian empire and naval supremacy?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And following the Athenian victory success, repelling the first Persian invasion of Greece in 490, Battle of the Marathon and so on, In the years following, do we know much about the Greek world in those immediate years when Xerxes immediately comes to the throne? Are the Athenians still bathing in the afterglow of their success? What do we know?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Salamis is not the end of the Persian invasion of Greece. As we've highlighted, there'll be another campaigning season. But Lloyd, for Xerxes himself, is this the end of his venture to Greece? Does he take quite a bit of the army back with him at that time?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Well, guys, in the future, we will cover the Bast of Plataea and what happens next with the forces that remain in Greece. But you guys have been an absolute tour de force explaining Xerxes' invasion and Thermopylae, Salamis and so on. Last but certainly not least, Lloyd, tell us a bit about your book on Xerxes and all the other Persians, Babylon as well.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
You've got books to plug, I think, right now.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
And Raoul, for yourself, there will be in the future, no doubt, lots of big hitters on the ancient Greek world and ancient Greek warfare. You are a tour de force as well, and you're very popular on YouTube, including on the History Hit YouTube channel. So people do check out Raoul's
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
critiques of 300 and ancient sparta and so on too guys once again thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today absolutely you're very welcome Well, there you go. There was Dr. Rul Kananidike and Professor Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones discussing the Second Persian War up to the end of the Battle of Salamis in 480 BC.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
Now, as mentioned, although this marked the time when Xerxes decided to return to Asia to deal with this big revolt in Babylon, it certainly wasn't the end of the Persian invasion of Greece. Xerxes would leave an army to continue the fight commanded by his general and relative Mardonius. Stay tuned. as we will cover this final stage of the Persian invasion very soon.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
In the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
It's so interesting how you see again and again in ancient history how the higher up members of certain societies will see goods from elsewhere. It's like the trendy thing to show that they have it and others can't. But also, as you said, Lloyd, there it does pass down into society as well. If we do return, though, to Xerxes, he's very new to the Persian throne, fighting in Egypt straight away.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
How long is it before he turns his attention to Greece? Because it feels like he probably has a big shopping list of things he wants to do.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Xerxes, Thermopylae and Salamis
So what do the Greek sources then tell us? I'm presuming Herodotus, but others as well, about why the Persians and Xerxes does ultimately decide, let's give Greece another go.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
So Herodium, so like the construction of this monumental tomb, is this something that Herod, he constructs when he's alive, or does it happen after his death? What do we know about the background to this tomb?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Now our guest for this episode, explaining all about Herod's tomb, from its discovery to what it looked like and how elaborate it was, its dominant placement in the landscape too, is one of our most popular ancients interviewees, Professor Jody Magnus. This is a fascinating story, and I hope you enjoy. King Herod. We've all heard the name.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Before we really delve into the actual construction of the mausoleum, the design of it itself, which is really interesting, let's go to the purpose of the tomb, as you hinted at there. Because, of course, we also mentioned earlier Bethlehem. You mentioned Bethlehem is very close by. Do you have any idea why Herod decides he wants to be buried at this location, very close to Bethlehem?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
We have this great combination of literature and archaeology surviving about him. I mean, Jodie, he surely has to rank among one of the most interesting figures to study in ancient history.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
As a fact, that's amazing. That's an amazing way to kick it all off. I mean, let's set the background first before we go into, let's say, the Massacre of the Innocents and his building program. Because I know it's a huge question, but to set the scene, really, Jodie, I mean, who was King Herod?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
You mentioned the circular nature of it, and this is something I'd like to talk about next, because my mind instantly, Hellenistic mindset that I have, and unashamedly so, my mind instantly goes to the iconic circular structure within the Altus at Olympia, constructed by Alexander the Great's father, Philip, and also named after himself, the Philippaeon. Could this also have an influence on it?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
I mean, that's so interesting, Jodie. And I mean, for those people who, let's say they believe that Herod was this Messiah figure, does Herodium, do we think Herodium becomes similar to, let's say, the tomb of Alexander the Great in Alexandria, in which it becomes a place of pilgrimage too?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
I mean, it is really interesting seeing this archaeology combined with the literature once again. I would like to ask a bit about those sarcophagi. I know they're crushed up. They've been vandalized. But do we have any idea who these sarcophagi belong to?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
I mean, Jodie, good for you to get that link to our previous podcast in there with the rock-cut tombs in and around Jerusalem and that link to King Herod is interesting indeed.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Now, before we really start wrapping up with this topic, there is one last thing I'd like to ask about because it's sometimes, I think, overlooked sometimes with these tombs and that is the gardens or the garden of this tomb because there is quite a magnificent garden next to the mausoleum, isn't there, Jodie?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
I mean, yeah, brilliant. Once again, it's nice to bring that to light. As you say, the gardens, you've got to imagine this very colourful ancient world.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
And Jodie, as we wrap up, from what we've been chatting about King Herod, especially this archaeology looking at the tomb, I mean, the whole design of Herodium, of this tomb complex, constructed whilst Herod was alive, it gives this amusing insight into... into the life of this figure.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
This is like this invaluable lens of archaeology through which we can learn more about, as we said at the start, one of the most infamous characters from ancient history.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
And Jodie, last but not least, because it's just come to my mind now, is actually, we haven't really talked about the actual death of King Herod. Do we know how he dies?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Well, let's hope one day they may find a parchment somewhere, which is, let's say, the complete account of Nicolaus of Damascus's biography of Herod. And then you would know exactly.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Well, hopefully, hopefully one day soon. You never know. There's always going to be new extraordinary discoveries being made in that part of the world from ancient history. Something will happen in the years and decades ahead. Jodie, it's wonderful to have you back on the podcast today. And it only goes to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Well, there you go. There was our episode all about the tomb of King Herod with Dr. Jodie Magnus, first released three years ago. Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. You can also follow me.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
I am on social media on both Instagram and TikTok doing all things ancient history. And you can follow me by just searching Ancients Tristan, Tristan Hughes Ancient History. You should be able to find me. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
But that's enough from me. I wish you a very Merry Christmas and I will see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Which is so interesting because you think of this period in ancient history with the end of the Roman Republic, quite a turbulent period for the Roman Empire or for late Republican Rome. But it sounds as if Herod, as you say, rather than this big exterior potential threat on his doorstep, actually the biggest threat to him is more of an internal threat during his reign.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and it is Christmas on the Ancients. I wish you all a fantastic Christmas and festive holiday season. Now, the Ancients team, they've been working hard all year and they deserve a well-deserved break. So over the Christmas period until the new year, we are re-releasing a few of our favourite early episodes.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Fair enough. I do appreciate we're doing a whistle-stop tour of Herod's life because we're going to get to the tomb. But there's one thing I'd love to ask first of all, and we kind of highlighted this right at the start, but I'd like to go into the detail of it, and that is our sources for this figure. I mean, Jodie, what sorts of sources do we have available for King Herod?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Well, we'll get into that archaeology very, very, very quickly indeed. But first of all, as it is December, and we've got to talk about the Bible and the mention of Herod in the Bible, in the Gospel. And I mean, first of all, Jodie, just so we know completely, I mean, what is this mention in the Bible? What is the Massacre of the Innocents?
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Back when I was barely a year into hosting The Ancients and I had no idea just how far this podcast would go. It has been an amazing journey. The best project I've ever worked on in my life and long may it continue. Now, this episode of The Ancients was released three years ago in December 2021.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
No, I mean, Jodie, it's important to mention, and like there is some key words there, such as Bethlehem and Messiah figure, which we will definitely be coming back to as we talk about the tomb of King Herod. I've also got my notes here. We can talk about this briefly before we move on to the archaeology. He's also mentioned in the Psalm of Solomon 17 too.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
Which is in contrast to many of his building projects, if I'm not mistaken, Jodie.
The Ancients
Tomb of King Herod
It is an amazing archaeological discovery story, and it does have a link to Christmas, albeit an infamous one, because it's the story of Big Bad King Herod and the discovery of his tomb in the early 2000s. King Herod is, I would argue, one of the most interesting figures from ancient history because of the amount of literature and archaeology surviving for this ancient king of Judea.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Much of this topic is still shrouded in mystery, but to explain what is known and what has been theorised so far, well, I was delighted to interview the science journalist Laura Spinney. Laura has just written a new book called Proto, which is all about the birth of Indo-European languages and how they came to be spoken by nearly half of humanity. So let's get into it.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Is this Linear A and Linear B? Are we talking about that kind of writing?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
This is quite a topic. I mean, for me, from a historic background, not really a scientific background, I must admit, Indo-European languages and Proto-Indo-Europeans, this is something I know very little about, but I'm excited to learn more. First of all, what are we talking about when we talk about Indo-Europeans and the Indo-European language family?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
So when we're going that far back in time in prehistory, we can't say, even with this, we can't say exactly what the word for sheep or horse was or field or crops was for those particular people. But by looking at it, you can understand that it was almost the common ancestor to the many different Indo-European languages that we have today and look about how that language might have spread.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Although you don't know the meanings of the words themselves that they would have used, by looking at those different types of evidence, you can stretch it back, correct?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
This idea of a common ancestor, I know, as you've highlighted earlier, oversimplified to say trees and branches. But can we talk about a common ancestor before these Indo-European languages, before they emerge?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
They smelt gold as well, aren't they? They've got some beautiful gold in burials as well. I remember talking about that. Yeah, extraordinary culture.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
And that rough area then, are we talking about the area of what is today Ukraine? Do we think that's where the step meets the farming world, where those interactions would have taken place around that time?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
And this idea of a lingua franca that you see time and time again, a common language that was needed for trade to happen, you know, has happened throughout history, that might have happened there as well.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
It's a massive term, isn't it? I mean, how massive are we talking? How many language families and what families and branches are we talking about that can be incorporated under this great umbrella term that is Indo-European?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
from this language of the time of the Varna culture, this kind of common ancestor of the Indo-European language. How do we go from that time period to the next big name I've got on my list, which is the Yamnaya? Who are the Yamnaya?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Do we know much then? I think this is kind of going back to what you said earlier when you're using the example when we talk about linguistics, archaeology, DNA and genetics. Do we know much about the Proto-Indo-European language that they spoke?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
And their spread and their movement, as you were saying there, is that crucial? Is it whether going westwards or southwards? Is that crucial in those early stages to the spread of Proto-Indo-European language that they had?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
It's amazing. Does it kind of emphasize how the eventual dominance of Indo-European… I mean, is it a chain of different migrations? We've looked at the Yamnaya one in detail, but are there more prehistoric migrations that will occur over time that also contribute to why Indo-European languages are so dominant today, why they are so successful.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Well, I'll tell you what, Laura, it's been a fascinating, I mean, I've learned a lot from this chat and it's so interesting looking at the origins of Indo-European languages. I mean, the Indo-European family and covering cultures like the Varna and the Yamnaya.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
You mentioned that it's a hypothesis and although there is now growing evidence and genetics in DNA, how important that is, but is this still a field of debate? More information will be unearthed, will come to the fore that will hopefully let us know more about this, maybe posits completely new hypotheses in the future.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Okay, okay. Well, I think you can get excused there. I mean, it's quite a massive amount and huge periods of time. And I'm guessing, is that one of the most fascinating things about it is that you can look at maybe Latin or something like that, the Roman language of the ancient Romans, and maybe languages in ancient India, Sanskrit and so on.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Fantastic. Well, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Well, there you go. There was Laura Spinney talking all about Proto-Indo-European, the birth of Indo-European languages. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
And don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips in the meantime, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan. That's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
And can you see with certain words or meanings of certain words that there are clear similarities between the two?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
So often we can sometimes put these different parts of the ancient world into almost different boxes and think that they're in different spheres. Although we know there was absolutely interaction through trade and so on between them, you sometimes can often separate them, say we're going to be talking about Rome or we're going to talk about India.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Is Indo-European, is this a great way to explore them together and explore the similarities between the two?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring the very intriguing topic that is the birth of Indo-European languages. Long before the beginning of writing, there was a connection between the prehistoric East and West, a connection established through their languages.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
So the mythological stories as well, and I guess when you're looking at the earliest scriptures, even religious texts as well as historical texts, is that where you see the similarities in both types of forms?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
You mentioned those different groups that belong to Indo-European, but are there any languages in Europe that don't derive from Indo-European languages?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
You often see with terms about languages and having different groups, you see terms like branches and different trees of languages. With using terminology like that with Indo-European languages, does it oversimplify it a little? How should we be approaching this?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Because ancient languages that varied from Celtic to Latin to Sanskrit shared the same complex language family tree. It's known as Indo-European. Most fascinating of all is the common ancestor ancient language that they presumably all are derived from thousands of years ago. A mysterious language that is labelled as Proto-Indo-European. This origin story is what we're going to explore today.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
I guess it also helps if you're looking when talking about the birthplace of certain Indo-European languages, doesn't it? If it goes horizontally and not just descending at the same time, almost like I remember doing a chat a long time ago about the origins of Homo sapiens and saying there's not just one birthplace where Homo sapiens first emerged.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
They might be in several different parts of Africa at once. I guess, is that the kind of approach you need to do with this topic too?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
One last overarching question before we delve more into it. There are so many different terms that are used for these languages. You've got proto-Indo-European, Indo-European. How do you approach this subject? What do you use?
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Well, Laura, I think we've set the scene very nicely now to delve into the science. So the origins of Indo-European languages. How do linguists go about learning more about this, trying to understand the origins of Indo-European language? I mean, languages that emerged in prehistory before writing and so on.
The Ancients
The Birth of Indo-European
Now this is a field that mixes together linguistics, archaeology and DNA, and it's a tale that features various prehistoric peoples that lived around the Black Sea and on the Great Steppe. People such as the Vana and the Yamnaya. It is quite extraordinary.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Und um Menschen zu erinnern, so Enki, er war einer der Götter, die gerade am Vordergrund der babylonischen Pantheon, vor der Zeit des Enuma Eilish. Also ist es interessant, dass sie ihn einbringen, ihn frühzeitig einbringen.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Also haben wir jetzt ein bisschen eine göttliche Familie. Aber so oft in mythologischen Geschichten von Göttern und Götterinnen, ich meine, diese Harmonie, sie dauert nicht lange, oder?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
But what you might not know is that this creation story has clear influences from another ancient tale, the Babylonian Genesis, Babylon's epic of creation. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring an extraordinary piece of literature from ancient Babylon.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Absolut goes ahead with it all the same. And I mean, is he successful? Surely there are going to be consequences of his actions, of going against what are gods.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
An epic narrative designed to glorify Babylon's chief god Marduk and explain how he created the heavens and the earth with Babylon at the center of the universe. They called it the Enuma Elish, Babylon's Epic of Creation. Now to talk through this epic tale, I was delighted to welcome back Dr. Sophus Hell. Sophus is an expert on ancient Mesopotamian literature.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Weil Marduk selbst, ich glaube, der Hauptcharakter in dieser Narrative, er ist noch nicht einmal vorhanden, hat er? Das ist fast wie der große Hintergrund, was vorher passiert ist und fast bevor sie ihn auf die Bühne bringen.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Um es zu klären, das ist wirklich interessant, ich versuche es herauszufinden. Apsu ist verletzt und wird Teil des Kosmos, dieser untergründigen Lake, der Grund für alle frische Wasser. Und dann kommt das nächste Teil, aus dieser frischen Wasser, oder aus Apsu, ist Marduk geboren. Ist das ein Link zu dem verletzten Apsu, oder was?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Und das ist das Link zu Wasser, ist es nicht? Natürlich, wenn wir ein bisschen tangentieren, wie Wasser für die Babylonier. Also du hast diese zwei Räder, die Tigris und die Euphrates. Du hast all diese Kanäle. Es ist eine wichtige Teil der Narrative, die wir wieder und wieder zurückkommen werden.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Well, let's go on to what happens next, because you mentioned Tiamat. I mean, how does she respond to the murder, the killing of her partner, Absu?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
He's also bringing these ancient poems back into the public eye, having translated great works such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. We interviewed Sophus all about the Epic of Gilgamesh last year, so do go and check out that episode after listening to this one.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Letztendlich, aber, haben Sophus und eine ganze Menge anderer leitender babylonischer Akademiker eine neue Übersetzung des Epik von der Kreation veröffentlicht, die Sie kostenlos lesen können, mit Artikeln, die ihre verschiedenen Details untersuchen. Also, ohne weiteres zu tun, hier ist mein Gespräch mit Sophus über die Epik von der Kreation von Babylon. Sophus, willkommen zurück auf dem Podcast.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Ich glaube, weil sie divine Wesen sind, vielleicht ist das nicht so gefragt, aber wenn man all diese Tiere und Monster kreiert, die man, abgesehen von den Fischen, auf dem Land erwarten würde, wenn es ein unendliches Meer wäre, würden sie schwimmen oder auf Wasser laufen? Ich glaube, diese Fragen sind unantwortlich, aber es sind die Götter und ihre Kreationen, die sie finden. Ja.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Ich meine, es ist bizarr, aber diese ganze Geschichte ist unglaublich. Wir gehen also zu diesem Showdown von Marduk versus den Monstern. Was passiert da?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Sind diese Dialoge dann beziehungsweise mit den Sophisten in Griechenland, was die Babyloner glaubten, dass ein König sein sollte?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Und so, als sie dieses Gespräch hatten und Marduk seinen Preis für das Kämpfen von Tiamat genannt hat, was passiert? Ist es ein großer Konflikt zwischen ihm und Tiamat?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Es war so ein Vergnügen. Und es war ein ziemlich langer Podcast, den wir letztendlich in zwei teilen. Und wir haben das vor allem dieses Mal im letzten Jahr gedreht. Also ein jährlicher Retreat. Du bist zurück auf dem Podcast. Und dieses Mal sprechen wir über einen anderen, naja, echten Epik des alten Mesopotamiens. Sophus, zuerst, was ist der Enuma Elish?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Also ist Tiamat nicht so wie das Töten der scharfen Seen? Tiamat ist also ein Körper, er stirbt und dann ist es der Verwendung dieser Macht, um einen neuen Welt zu erschaffen. Ich meine, ein neues Heavens and Earth, oder?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Wow, of course, yeah, that's quite some imagery. I said the dead mother as well, which has another layer to it entirely.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Well, okay then, so let's get to that next big part of the text, which is within this dead corpse of their great mother, how does Marduk, as the newly elected kind of chief god, how does he go about showing himself as the new big person in town and kind of reshaping or creating the heavens and the earth?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Ich weiß, dass du in deinem neuen Werk, ich meine, ist es Francesca Rochberg, die ein bisschen über die Astronomie arbeitet? Also würde ich gerne ein bisschen darüber sprechen, wenn du dich nicht ermutigst. Ich meine, weil wenn du an das alte Babylon und die Babylonier denkst, haben sie eine große Faszination, nicht wahr? In der Astronomie und den Sternen und dem Zodiac und all dem.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Also ist es keine Überraschung, dass, du weißt, kinderlich Marduk die Himmel und was sie über ihnen sahen, ob es der Himmel oder die Sternen oder der Mond war. Ich meine, es bildet einen großen Teil dieser Kreativität-Narrative.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Wow, okay. I did not realize just how many planets. Well, it's a Babylonian astronomy and astrology is another episode in its own right. And it's one that we certainly will have to do in the future. But okay, let's move away from the heavens now. Und ich möchte eigentlich eine Sache erwähnen, die du in der Vergangenheit gesprochen hast, wenn du über Marduk, die Erde, sprichst.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Die Räder kommen aus den Augen von Tiamat. Nun, ist da ein bestimmter Fokus auf diese beiden Räder, die rechts neben und zentral zu Babylon sind?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Right, yes, irrigation and canals, as you say. Right, so if we move on slightly, but still on that kind of creation part, how and when do humans come into the story?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Beautiful language, I've got no doubt. So how does this whole text, if we get to like the seventh tablet, you said there were seven tablets, I mean, how does it ultimately end? I mean, you mentioned the book of Genesis earlier, so you might think of, you know, God creating the earth seven days and on the seventh day he rested idea. Ist da etwas ähnliches mit Marduk?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Sitzt er zurück und relaxiert und genießt, was er geschaffen hat?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
It's such an extraordinary story and as you said, from fluidity and just water to this order and language and Marduk at the top. I know I asked it at the beginning, the importance of this, but now that we've done the story and we've gone through it, I'm going to ask you this again, because I feel we can even...
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Ich glaube, einer der Hauptmessagen ist natürlich einfach, dass Marduk der König der Götter ist und Marduk ein besonderer Kind des Götters ist. Das ist die Nummer eins.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Für diejenigen, die es folgten, war es eine Idee, wenn Babylon gesagt hätte, es hat Tempels zu Marduk, es ist das Haus des Götters, haben viele Babyloner es dann als das Zentrum des Universums interpretiert, weil das ist, wo das Haus von Marduk ist und wir sind die Stadt, die Marduk primär betrifft, anders als andere Städte?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
So their chief god and their chief city. I was going to ask, like, How popular would it have been outside of Babylon? But you've answered there, you know, other people who weren't too keen on this rival city claiming that they were the center of the universe.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
But before that time, actually, when Babylon is at its height and the Enuma Elish, there is resistance to it, but if there were still many who would have heard it, was it promoted in public festivals or was this poem taught in schools in Babylon? Is that kind of a key piece of literature? Do we know much about... Where and how this story would have been told in Babylon?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Ich muss sagen, das ist ein sehr interessanter Punkt über die Schulen. Und was ich auch liebe, ist der Fakt, dass diese Geschichte in ihrer entirety überlebt hat. Wie du sagst, diese sieben Tabletten, was für eine unglaubliche Erfindung das war. Aber ich werde nur eine Frage stellen, die wir schon ein bisschen diskutiert haben, aber ich finde es wichtig, zu fragen.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Wie beeinflusst die Enuma Eilish die Erstellung der Hebräischen Bibel?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
It's the Babylonian captivity after Nebuchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem, early 6th century BC. We did an interview with... the incredible, and it's fair to say incredible, Dr. Irving Finkel last year, where he did the story of Noah and the Flood and also how that is very much linked into it. So very interesting to hear your thoughts on that too. Sofas, this has been absolutely extraordinary.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Last but certainly not least, tell us about this new book and e-resource that has come back and how it is making ancient Babylonian literature like the Epic of Creation in the modern day, it is making it accessible to a wide audience.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Absolut. Also die Epoche der Kreation, die wir heute gesprochen haben, diese ganze außerordentliche, bizarre, aber außerordentliche Geschichte, Sie können sie heute alles online gratis lesen und all diese Essays von leitenden Experten in der Welt, insbesondere von Ihnen, Sophus. Was ein...
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Asset to have modern day, to breach it, well, to give people such a wonderful introduction to not just the Greek myths, it's not just the Roman stories, you can now also look at this great library of Mesopotamian literature and mythology that is really starting to rise to the fore.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Sophus, this has been a pleasure to have you on the podcast and it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Sofus, wenn es so eine klare Zeit in der Geschichte gibt, bevor dieser Text geschrieben wird, als Marduk nicht im Zentrum der babylonischen Religion ist, und dann nach dem Zeitpunkt, als Marduk direkt am Vordergrund ist, wie der Gott Babylon, wann denken wir, dass diese Geschichte geschrieben wurde? Wie alt ist sie?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Ich meine, das ist ein guter Hinweis darauf, wo wir im Endeffekt in dieser Interview mit der Rezeption und den Linken zur Hebräischen Bibel gehen werden, wie die Zeit weitergeht. Und bevor wir in die Narrative gehen, die Geschichte selbst, naja, um Marduk etwas länger zu halten, weil du den Namen Nebuchadnezzar erwähnt hast, einer der berühmtesten babylonischen Könige und
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Die große Architektur von Babylon, wie die Zigaretten und Tempels. Also in dem ersten Jahrhundert, nachdem das geschrieben wurde, sind das die Gebäude, die für Marduk dediziert sind. Also ist er da und überall ist er.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Now, Sophus, you have also translated this, so you, it's Akkadian. Is it Akkadian, the language in which it is originally written, the Cuneiform?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
und auf diesen Kuneiform-Kleetabletten versorgt. Und ich erinnere mich, dass wir in unserem letzten Chat viel gesprochen haben, weil es mir gut gefällt, dass du, der Translator, den bestimmten Art und Weise, den Stil des Wortes, die Schönheit des Schreibens, und in der Epik der Kreation, ich erinnere mich, dass du sagst, dass die Epik von Gilgamesch so wunderschön stylistisch geschrieben ist.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Ich meine, wie ist die Epik der Kreation geschrieben? Ist es auch dieses Art von Poem?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
So it's almost like, as interesting as it is today, and we're going to explore the narrative now, but you could argue, if you don't read it in the original language, maybe some of that power and beauty is lost in the translation, is it?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Die Arbeit von euch und euren Kollegen hat diese tolle Geschichte mehr an den Publikum zugänglich gemacht. Wir werden zurückkommen, aber lasst uns jetzt in die Geschichte gehen. Also, lasst uns am Anfang beginnen. Wie beginnt die Epik der Kreation, die babylonische Epik der Kreation? Wie beginnt sie?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
I mean, you've used the word fluidity there a couple of times. I mean, is it interesting that water straight away forms a key part of the narrative and either kind of this primordial fluidity Wasser. Wenn ich mich richtig erinnere, haben wir etwas über die Ursprünge der ägyptischen Götter vor ein paar Monaten gemacht, wo vielleicht der erste Gott von einem Ei geboren wurde.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Aber wiederum denke ich, dass es auch Wasser gibt. Also scheint Wasser ein Konstant zu den Beginnen dieser Kreationepiken in dieser Welt zu sein.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
In the beginning. The famous three words that begin the book of Genesis, the first book in the Bible. What follows is the story of how God created the heavens and the earth in six days, resting on the seventh. It's one of the most popular stories of the Old Testament.
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
Right, although he's yet to make an appearance, our main protagonist, but we're going to get towards that now. So, Abzu and Tiamat, so Freshwater and Saltwater, the first two figures in the story, are they a divine couple then?
The Ancients
Babylon's Epic of Creation
There's quite a lineage there then. It's quite a few generations almost in divine terms.
The Ancients
The Saxons
So if we now go on to the early 5th century and this turbulent period in the Western Roman Empire, particularly around 408, I mean, what happens in 408? And how does this event around the Rhine, how does it probably affect the Saxons?
The Ancients
The Saxons
And then did they grow into something much bigger? Well, fortunately, recent studies have started to shine new light on this intriguing topic, as you're about to find out.
The Ancients
The Saxons
And do we think that triggers a Saxon response? Or do they have their own threats on the continent and then they decide that Britain's their next best place? What does the removal of Roman troops from southern Britain, what does that do for the Saxons?
The Ancients
The Saxons
Joining me to discuss the Saxon story, from their Germanic origins, to their interactions with the Roman Empire, to their migrations to Britain, I was delighted to interview Dr Peter Heather, Professor of Medieval History at King's College London. Now Peter, he is a good friend of the podcast.
The Ancients
The Saxons
Do we think this is Nike? So it sounds like the nature of these Saxon movements into Britain at that time, following the Roman soldiers leaving. Is it groups of war bands coming over, as you say, to fight as mercenaries in military service? Or should we actually be imagining a series of migrations where the Saxons were also bringing their women and children too?
The Ancients
The Saxons
He's been on the show recently to talk through the barbarian invasions that gripped the Western Roman Empire during the last century of its existence. Now he's back to talk through what we know about the Saxons and their migrations to Britain following Rome's departure. Enjoy. Peter, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.
The Ancients
The Saxons
David Plylar It seems that with the Saxons, it's not an unprecedented number of these people arriving in Britain, unlike it was with the Goths and the Vandals in those parts of the Roman Empire. They are small groups, but those groups keep coming over a prolonged period of time.
The Ancients
The Saxons
And do we have that evidence surviving? Do you have burials from the 5th century of Saxons in Britain? We do. Wow.
The Ancients
The Saxons
Now, in the past on The Ancients, we've covered in-depth topics on the Vandals, the Goths. We've done the Franks as well. And it feels like we need to do an episode also on the Saxons. They're another of these big barbarian groups that really rise to the fore at the end of the Western Roman Empire. Yeah. We'll cover the Saxons in Britain, but first we do need to go back to the origins.
The Ancients
The Saxons
Just slight tangents before we kind of continue on this. You also mentioned, of course, the famous words Anglo-Saxon. So what's the Anglo part of that as well? Is this the Angles who also live in that area of northern Germany?
The Ancients
The Saxons
It's interesting, as the 5th century goes on, and maybe as a hypothesis, if we take Gildas' account that these early Saxon arrivals, they're in small groups and they're coming almost as mercenaries to fill the void of the Roman soldiers have gone. But could it be then, as time goes on, word reaches back to Saxon heartlands that actually Britain is a nice place and there's opportunity now there. So,
The Ancients
The Saxons
Maybe the size and scale of the migrations increases over the course of that century and you get the families then moving across. I guess it's no surprise that the southeast of England is one of the biggest areas for it as well, given the proximity of it compared to other areas of Britain.
The Ancients
The Saxons
And that ultimately, in a way, I mean, catalyzes might be the wrong word, but almost like a snowball as it's building up and up and up. Maybe as the decades go on in the fifth century, more and more Saxons are coming across when they hear of the opportunities. And it's no longer just soldiers. It's also women and children, too.
The Ancients
The Saxons
If you have that Ambrosius Aurelianus story in the Battle of Mount Baden around 500, is it in the century afterwards that always the balance of power seems to shift from Romano-British to Germanic-Saxon culture in southern Britain and a bit beyond that?
The Ancients
The Saxons
Do we have any idea whether they force their culture on everyday people as in those areas? You mentioned earlier how maybe the elites actually buy into the Germanic culture of the Saxons if they see the tide turning. Do we have any idea whether they then force Germanic culture on the people beneath them? Or is that still just a bit unclear in this difficult time?
The Ancients
The Saxons
And many of them are still living in their farmsteads, Iron Age roundhouses kind of thing, aren't they? Absolutely.
The Ancients
The Saxons
It's not something that appears earlier on. So we don't have it, let's say, at the time of the Bass of the Teutoburg Forest or Tacitus when he's labelling all of those different Germanic groups. He doesn't say the Saxons are one of them.
The Ancients
The Saxons
The Romans viewed outsiders as barbarians. The Saxons see themselves, they've almost embraced that. And they see Roman and British peasants as barbarians in their eyes, kind of.
The Ancients
The Saxons
I was going to ask maybe if there was potential examples of ethnic cleansing or, I mean, as horrific as it is, or if there is evidently at times strong resistance to the Saxons. We mentioned Mount Baden, especially, that presumably there is some hatred between the two groups, at least for a period of time.
The Ancients
The Saxons
We won't go too far into the medieval period because we'll be stepping too much on gone medieval's toes.
The Ancients
The Saxons
But is it once that balance of power has shifted and the Saxons are very much amongst the elite or the Romano-British survivors have bought into the Saxon ideas, is it not long after that, by the time we get to Bede, that you then see that grow out into the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms that we know so well for the early Middle Ages in Britain today?
The Ancients
The Saxons
It's interesting to think of actually early on, and we don't have enough information at the moment, but maybe it started with much smaller Saxon kingdoms or the Saxons take over these small kind of warlord areas that emerge following the departure of Rome. And then ultimately they do coalesce into the larger kingdoms that we're more familiar with.
The Ancients
The Saxons
It is like an axoners, but it doesn't actually say Saxons, does it? So it's interesting. And whereabouts in what is today Germany or mainland Europe, where did the Saxons live? Where were they placed by the Romans?
The Ancients
The Saxons
Land in Chichester and just say, I'm taking this for myself for the time being, and then grow from there. This has been really, really interesting. I can only ask a couple more questions, but I will ask one quickly because you mentioned St. Augustine. The Saxons, we mentioned before, Germanic paganism. But as they migrate, more and more of them migrate to Britain.
The Ancients
The Saxons
Do we know much about their conversion to Christianity? You know a lot about it.
The Ancients
The Saxons
You can almost imagine with certain Romano-British elites, if they bought into Saxon customs when they arrive, if they were originally Christian, then maybe they convert to whatever the religion that the Saxons bring across, and then they convert back to Christianity when that goes the other way.
The Ancients
The Saxons
not from the Romano-British side. And that's another important point to highlight, isn't it, that the Saxons, when they reach Britain, they're not then isolated on the island. They still retain those contacts to the mainland of Europe. But I'm glad you mentioned the Franks there because my last question is actually about the Saxons who don't migrate to Britain.
The Ancients
The Saxons
But that's still a long way in the future. Long way in the future and out of our time period, I'm afraid. But Peter, this has been absolutely fantastic. It just goes me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show.
The Ancients
The Saxons
Well, there you go. There was Professor Peter Heather shining a light on the Saxons. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Now, the Saxons was the winner of a poll we released on Spotify a few weeks ago for which post-Roman kingdom you wanted us to explore next. And don't you worry, we'll be doing more polls in the future, so keep an eye out for those.
The Ancients
The Saxons
In the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you leave us a rating as well, well, we'd really appreciate that.
The Ancients
The Saxons
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Saxons
And with the Franks and the Saxons, do we get the sense that they're almost the rivals of each other? Do they have quite a strange relationship?
The Ancients
The Saxons
And can we call the Saxons in their original place, can we call them a Germanic people? Can we say that?
The Ancients
The Saxons
Do we get a sense, because with so many of these people, you get later writers, maybe in the case of the Anglo-Saxon writers, when they're talking about the origins of their people, they create mythical stories of where they came from. Is it a similar case with the Saxons? Did they have a mythical origin story too?
The Ancients
The Saxons
It's the mid-fifth century. Decades have passed since the last Roman field troops had left Britain, symbolising the end of Roman control. Once the most prosperous and protected part of the island, southern Britain is now vulnerable. Fearsome raiders from present-day Scotland and Ireland threaten these lands. But help is at hand.
The Ancients
The Saxons
Because I appreciate it is very difficult to talk about the early Saxons before we get to the Anglo-Saxons in Britain and so on. And we'll get to the interactions with the Roman Empire very quickly.
The Ancients
The Saxons
But from the surviving information, let's say from the Romans that you have of other Germanic groups in that area, is it possible at all to piece together a rough idea of Saxon lifestyle, how we should imagine settlements and so on in those lands of what is today northern Germany?
The Ancients
The Saxons
Let's explore their interactions with the Roman Empire. If you've highlighted with their position that they don't directly neighbour the Roman Empire, how do the Romans portray them? Are they more as a conflict people rather than a trading people, almost a trading partner?
The Ancients
The Saxons
Southern Britain's new Romano-British leaders, warlords, have sought aid from overseas. And Saxon mercenaries have answered the call. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring the story of the Saxons, one of the most recognisable non-Roman peoples from the late Ancient and early Medieval periods in Western Europe.
The Ancients
The Saxons
And you mentioned the channel there. So that's not just southern Britain, that's also northern France. So do we get the sense that the Saxons, they're not marching their armies through Frankish lands and attacking the border area of the Roman Empire. They're getting on their ships, they're almost circumnavigating that, and then they're attacking more heartland areas of the Roman provinces.
The Ancients
The Saxons
Do we know how the Romans attempted to fend off, to appease this threat, to try and counter this Saxon sea threat?
The Ancients
The Saxons
Over the course of more than a century, they would rise to become a dominant force in Britain, ultimately forming famous kingdoms like Wessex and Mercia. But the nature of their arrival into Britain remains highly debated. What do we know about the Saxon migrations into Britain? Did they really start with these mercenary bands coming to the aid of Romano-British warlords?
The Ancients
The Saxons
Do we hear from the Roman sources, if the Saxons are engaging in this activity, any particular raids by the Saxons on Roman territory that are particularly infamous in Roman eyes?
The Ancients
The Iliad
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Iliad
None of that is in the poem, though. I just wanted to clarify, as you mentioned that earlier. Right, okay, let's explore Achilles. He really does feel like the main character, doesn't he? What is his story in the Iliad? It feels like, as you say, it's this kind of unhinged vengeance fury arc that he has.
The Ancients
The Iliad
Now the Iliad is a massive topic for us to cover in one episode. We're going to tackle it as best we can and we wouldn't have time to explore it book by book from book 1 to 24. We're going to do it thematically. We're going to explore everything varying from the origins of the Iliad some 3,000 years ago to the main characters of the epic and how complex their stories are and much more.
The Ancients
The Iliad
Does it add to the kind of complexity of Achilles' character? It almost feels like there's a dilemma that, yes, he has been mistreated. His personal honour, perhaps in his eyes, has been attacked through Agamemnon's actions. But at the same time, he also has other friends amongst the Greeks. He's been fighting alongside the Achaeans in the camp for years by this point.
The Ancients
The Iliad
And yet the person overall in charge, the commander-in-chief, has sliced him in this way. Is there a dilemma as to what he will do, whether he will fight or whether he will not fight? Is that a big part of the story?
The Ancients
The Iliad
And how central then is Patroclus to Achilles' whole story and his story arc in the Iliad?
The Ancients
The Iliad
Now, my guest today is Professor Edith Hall from Durham University, a leading academic on ancient Greek literature and philosophy, including the Iliad. Edith has a new book coming out about the Iliad and how apocalyptic some of its language is. I really do hope you enjoy. Edith, it is great to have you back on the podcast. And I'm thrilled to be back here again.
The Ancients
The Iliad
It's so interesting, isn't it? And Patroclus, before we move on to Hector, obviously kind of another big figure in the story, his story is absolutely crucial in that kind of transition from Achilles always being in his tent to coming out later in the play and that vengeful arc emerging.
The Ancients
The Iliad
Before looking at Hector in this story, Edith, but keeping on that rage part of Achilles' story, there was this other part which I found really interesting that I know you've done some work on, which isn't Achilles going into battle and fighting mortal humans, but is there a part where he has a fight with a river?
The Ancients
The Iliad
And last time we did the massive topic of Atlantis, we've got you on for another big one today. The story of the Iliad. First of all, Edith, what exactly is the Iliad?
The Ancients
The Iliad
It is such an interesting part of Achilles' story that is sometimes overlooked compared to his great fight with Hector, but I'm glad you mentioned it there. And I know, because also it's something that you've done a lot of work around, Edith, and hopefully we'll revisit that theme as we go on.
The Ancients
The Iliad
If we now go on to Hector, because I feel he is another important character we've got to talk about if we're doing the Iliad.
The Ancients
The Iliad
How does he compare to Achilles in terms of heroism? Because we've talked about the Greek perspective in the Achaean camp. What's been going on in Troy and how Hector fits into this?
The Ancients
The Iliad
It was a few years ago that I remember studying this part of the Iliad, but there's that extraordinary scene of him, as you mentioned, his loving wife Andromache, and they have that whole conversation together. And is she the one who's begging him not to go out again? But Hector's like, is it my duty? I have to go back out or something.
The Ancients
The Iliad
So that's the end of the story, is it, Edith? Because I was going to say, book 22, that's the climax, that's the fight where Hector dies, but it's 24 books. And you've gone from feeling sad for Achilles at the beginning to now feeling, being more on the Trojan side with the death of Hector. And I guess it's that wrapping up very quickly.
The Ancients
The Iliad
It's the prime getting the body back so it can have the important burial rites. Yes, which is so important.
The Ancients
The Iliad
It's also very interesting, I'll just say this briefly, that you have on the one hand Agamemnon as a leader, militaristic leader, as compared to Priam, that old man, and yet Priam has such an important role by the end, doesn't he?
The Ancients
The Iliad
Well, actually, that leads me nicely on to the next thing, is that we talked about Andromache, and you've mentioned as well Briseis, but do we have many women appearing in the Iliad, and do they play a major role in the story?
The Ancients
The Iliad
16,000 lines of epic poetry and has its origins more than 3,000 years ago. It is such an extraordinary epic poem to have survived so long and still be so important for the mindset of so many people today.
The Ancients
The Iliad
I don't want to say nice, but it's a very poignant end to Hector's story, having got the body back. You mentioned also there that other part of the story that I'd like to ask about before we move on, Edith, which is, of course, the role of the gods. So is the role of the gods, are they portrayed all as being very selfish in their outlook?
The Ancients
The Iliad
Are half of them siding with the Trojans, half of them with the Greeks? How are the gods portrayed in the Iliad?
The Ancients
The Iliad
late at night I have and I think you could probably see them on some football terraces where people just don't care what side they're hitting and it's also is it just the main gods or are there demigods as well or do you know as you mentioned there so there are some people who are half man half god who are fighting with the Achaeans or the Trojans I mean there's all this different mix of hybrid gods and gods and mortals there
The Ancients
The Iliad
As we move on to themes, I feel we've covered many of the big points and big characters of the Iliad story there, Edith. I must also ask, because we've just talked about gods fighting alongside these mythical heroes in the Iliad.
The Ancients
The Iliad
Historical basis though, do we think that there could have been at least some historical basis for a big Achaean Bronze Age fleet crossing over to Troy and there being an actual siege of Troy?
The Ancients
The Iliad
I'd like to move on to themes now, Edith. And one theme in particular that I'd love to ask about first of all, because I know we could talk about there are so many other major themes linked to the Iliad, whether that be fate and prophecy, friendship, honour. But one I find really interesting, having read some of your work before recording, is also this...
The Ancients
The Iliad
Talk about the world that they lived in, the natural world around them, but also natural disasters that occurred too. Is this also quite an interesting theme in the Iliad?
The Ancients
The Iliad
So it's almost a sense that, I mean, with all this exploiting of resources, not knowing that there was a finite limit at that time, and then with the hindsight several hundred years later, post Bronze Age collapse, is there a sense in the Iliad that the Trojan War and all the conflict, I mean, it was almost catalyzing a natural disaster?
The Ancients
The Iliad
I do find it so interesting. I love how you mentioned all those similes as well and how all those different... Having done an interview on the Bronze Age collapse, a couple in the past, how Dr. Eric Klein kind of explained how it probably is a combination. Famine, earthquakes, tsunamis, and all those things, and forest fires and everything, how they can all combine to be like a perfect storm.
The Ancients
The Iliad
So interesting that you have those similes of those natural events as well. Edith, lastly, this has been brilliant, but also bringing it down to the modern day, and I know this also relates to your new book too. How useful then can the Iliad be when looking at the modern 21st century and important world issues today?
The Ancients
The Iliad
Well, there you go. There was Professor Edith Hall giving you an overview of some of the key themes, really interesting themes of the epic that is the Iliad. I hope you enjoyed today's episode.
The Ancients
The Iliad
If you'd like more of Professor Edith Hall on the ancients, well, you're in luck because Edith also featured for one of our most popular episodes ever, released at the beginning of this year, all about Atlantis and exploring the ancient Greek story of Atlantis preserved in Plato. And what a Plato's dialogues actually say about this legendary city that was ultimately engulfed by the waves.
The Ancients
The Iliad
Go and check out that episode if you want to listen to more Edith Hall on the Ancients. Thank you once again for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
The Iliad
Now don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. Lastly, if you want more Ancient History videos and clips in the meantime, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at Ancients Tristan. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Iliad
It's one of the greatest epics in history, a 24-book story regarded as one of the most influential pieces of literature ever written. The Iliad. Centred around just before the end of the fabled, the legendary Trojan War,
The Ancients
The Iliad
Edith, you mentioned how young Athenians would have to learn the Iliad off by heart. Does that reflect how important epic poems like the Iliad were to ancient Greek culture?
The Ancients
The Iliad
But it's so interesting, Edith, how, as you mentioned, with that kind of Greek colonisation period, when you get lots of ancient Greek settlers and communities emerging and trading posts emerging at their height from what is Afghanistan today all the way to eastern Spain, that the one thing in common to show that there is that kind of Greek culture there could be that no matter where you were, someone would know the Iliad, would be able to recite it or have a copy of it.
The Ancients
The Iliad
And it was almost a symbol that, yes, we've gone really far away from maybe like the heart of ancient Greece and Athens and places, but we still remember the values in these stories.
The Ancients
The Iliad
The Iliad covers the stories of famous heroes of mythology like Achilles, greatest of the Greek warriors, Agamemnon, the king of Mycenae and leader of the Greeks, but also the rival of Achilles. Trojans like Hector, prince of Troy, Priam, the king, Hecuba, the queen, not to mention Paris, another prince whose golden apple judgement sparked the Trojan War.
The Ancients
The Iliad
Before we explore the story, main characters and some really interesting themes from the Iliad, Edith, I feel we must mention the author of the Iliad, Homer. But there always seems to be a bit of debate around this character as well. Do we think that the Iliad was the work of one man called Homer?
The Ancients
The Iliad
And so the timeline, well, the story, the poem, the epic poem that is the Iliad, you mentioned there, so it's divided into 24 books, is it? Are they almost like different scenes in the story?
The Ancients
The Iliad
And you say that it's 40 days, so 40 days might seem like quite a long time, but in regards to the Trojan War that it set, is this actually quite a small amount of time within the larger war?
The Ancients
The Iliad
And his lover, Queen Helen, Helen of Sparta or Helen of Troy, the face that launched a thousand ships. Beautifully written, the Iliad features several famous episodes from the Trojan War. How Achilles refused to fight for the Greeks and sulked in his tent after Agamemnon took his slave girl Briseis for his own.
The Ancients
The Iliad
And once again, to say to the average Joe Bloggs, when you might think about the Trojan War, yes, you think about the Trojan horse. But actually, in Homer's Iliad, the Trojan horse, that story isn't in there. It's in a different story, which is interesting. You mentioned some of those interesting characters there that we're going to explore. Achilles, absolutely. Hector, Patroclus, Agamemnon.
The Ancients
The Iliad
But before we get to them, Edith... As this is set for a particular 40-day period near the end of the Trojan War, are there any mentions in the Iliad kind of reminding people of what happened before then? Either why they're there, why they're on the plains of Troy, or what's happened in those years previously?
The Ancients
The Iliad
Is there any attempt to explain, well, what came before this in the last episode kind of thing?
The Ancients
The Iliad
before the death of Achilles' greatest friend Patroclus, sends Achilles back into battle. Berserk. Something that climaxes with his great duel against Hector outside the walls of Troy. The Iliad is a complex tale of wrath and resistance, of friendship and honour, of fate and prophecy, of gods and heroes. And today on the Ancients, we're going to explore it. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
The Iliad
Absolutely. Well, we'll get to that very quickly as we'll explore the interesting figure of Achilles, first of all. And just a side note, the sacrifice of Iphigenia is Agamemnon's daughter, isn't it? He sacrifices her to get their favourable winds.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
So, an either of you, whoever wants to go first with this now, let's explore the story of the Ionian Revolt then, because I feel we do need to tell this. What is then the story of this Ionian Revolt and this early conflict before, I guess you could say, the main Persian Wars?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
490 B.C. Auf dem Plan des Marathons steht ein athenischer Armee bereit, um zu kämpfen. Eine großzügige persische Kraft steht vor ihnen, die über den Aegean von Anatolien geflogen ist, um die Athenier für eine Vergangenheit in ihre Lande zu verurteilen, die einen antipersischen Revolt unterstützt.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Diese Kampf würde den Klimax der ersten persischen Invasion von Griechenland bemerken und durch die Ägypten immortalisiert werden, als der Tag, an dem Athen die Supermacht verurteilt hat. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're releasing the first of a series of episodes exploring the Persian Wars, with not one, but two leading experts in the field.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Und wir spielen am 12.6. im Kino am Olympiasee. Sagt man am Olympiasee? Oder im Olympiasee?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Oh, das wäre geil, so eine Tretbootshow. Und wir spielen am 12.6. am Kino im Olympiasee.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Und wir spielen am 12.06. im Kino am Olympiasee in Zusammenarbeit mit unserem Partner Backmarket eine Liveshow, unser allererstes Open Air.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Ich finde es auch so interessant, dass so viele von den wichtigen Teilen der Aktion, die ihr dort beschrieben habt, mit der sogenannten Ionian-Revolte, um Sardis zu kämpfen. Das war eine so präzise Stadt, war es nicht? Lloyd, wir haben in einem vorherigen Video darüber gesprochen, wie die persische Reichsstraße im Endeffekt an Sardis endet.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
An einem Punkt kannst du es heute noch ein bisschen sehen. Ich habe über die Erkundung von Geld in der Vergangenheit gesprochen und über einige der frühesten Körnungen von Sardis.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Ich glaube, wenn die Athener und Eritreaner hören, dass die Perser Sardis wiederholt haben, und Lloyd, das ist das, was du zu dem 9-11-Equivalent-Moment oder Schockmoment sprichst, denken sie in Griechenland, dass die Perser das nächste Schritt machen werden, den Aegean zu überschreiten, oder denken sie, dass sie damit wegkommen?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Warum entscheiden die Persier dann, eine Invasion zu starten? Oder sollten wir sagen, eine Expedition über die Ägypten? Und was tun sie dann?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Dr. Raoul Kninendijk from Lincoln College, Oxford University, and Professor Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones from Cardiff University. In this first episode we are covering the story of the first Persian War. Think the Battle of Marathon of 490 B.C. Wir besuchen den Aufbruch des Konflikts, die Erneuerung des Persischen Empires und wie es mit dem griechischen Weltraum in Westtürkei in Kontakt kam.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Das heißt also, das ist wie Thebes, oder? Genau, das ist wie Thebes, absolut.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Wir besuchen, wie die Perser die Griechen beobachten und so weiter, bevor wir letztendlich in die Narrative von Marathon selbst kommen, die in den Schriften des ältesten griechischen Historikers Herodotus, der Vater der Geschichte, besucht wurde. Ihr hört die Namen Herodotus in der heutigen Redezeit.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Hast du genau das mit der persischen Ausführungsstufe, die sich zusammensetzt, die fast einen Eiland über den Ägäischen fliegt, um zuerst Eritrea in Euboea zu targetieren, die unter Euboea, und dann einfach nach Nordathen landet? Hast du da einen ähnlichen Fall?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Every once in a while we release special episodes with two interviewees, as we know how much you enjoy them. With Roland Lloyd being fan-favourite guests of the podcast, brilliant experts, and with this being such an interesting topic, well, it felt like an easy winner. And boy, did they not disappoint. Enjoy! Enjoy! Raoul, Lloyd, it is a pleasure to have you both on the podcast. What a treat.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Das ist auch interessant, nicht wahr? Du hast das Wort Satraps, der Lloyd, erwähnt. Also mit dieser persischen Expeditionary Force. Sollten wir uns vorstellen, ist der große König da auch da? Oder hat er das fast zu Subordinaten gegeben, um mitzuteilen?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Ich erinnere mich, dass ich D'Artis und D'Artifernies in Age of Empires 2 gespielt habe, obwohl das so viele Jahre her war. Aber Raoul hat das Wort Marathon erwähnt, von dem ich sicher bin, dass viele Leute den Namen Marathon kennen. Aber Raoul, lasst uns mit dir anfangen. Die Persen führten es schlussendlich zum griechischen Hauptland und Marathon, also nach Nordathen und Attika.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Bevor wir mit dem Battle of Marathon anfangen, was sollten wir uns vorstellen? Was sollten wir sehen, was sollten wir sehen auf der persischen Seite in Bezug auf die Zahlen, wenn wir wissen, ich meine, die Truppen, und was sollten wir sehen auf der griechischen Seite? Haben wir irgendeine Idee? Du schlägst deine Hände, ich glaube, wir wissen es nicht ganz.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Well, thank you very much indeed. It's great to be here. Yeah, it's wonderful to be part of it. Now, this is quite a big topic, the Persian Wars. It feels straight away to highlight, doesn't it, with both of you, that it's much more complicated than Greeks versus Persians.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
And Lloyd, I know it's a battle, we don't need to focus too much on it, but of course it's an important part of the First Persian War, or what is known as the First Persian War. So what happens during this battle and what does it end up with? Why do people know the name Marathon now today?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Ja, würdest du gerne ein bisschen auf diese Rolle gehen?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
War nicht es jemand, der eine Person entscheidet, einen von den Schiffen zu halten? Und dann wird sein Arm gebrochen. Und dann wird sein Arm gebrochen.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Ich kann mich noch daran erinnern, als ich die Basis des Marathons an der Universität studierte, dass die Zentren, auch wenn die Perser mehr Nummern haben, ein bisschen niedriger sind, aber die Athener haben mehr Truppen auf den Flächen und sie drücken die Flächen der Perser und dann zirkeln sie, während die Zentren halten. Ist das die runde Idee?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Oh, the center does break, does it?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Aber wenn wir mit dem Hintergrund beginnen, was sollten wir uns in etwa 500 B.C. vorstellen? Was sieht die ältere mediterrane und nahe österreichische, zentralasiatische Welt in diesem Zeitraum aus? Das ist eine ziemlich große Frage.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Das ist der Grund, warum die Spartaner immer noch zu Hause waren. Erstens, sie waren einfach wirklich enttäuscht und dass die Perser ihre Botschaften nie beantwortet haben. Und zweitens, weil der Trouser.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Und wir spielen am 12.6. im Kino am Olympiasee. Sagt man am Olympiasee?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Ich erzähle dir, Lloyd, du hast die Darius-Vase vor ein bisschen Zeit erwähnt und ich erinnere mich, dass ich das gesehen habe, als ich am Naples-Archäologischen Museum war und es ist absolut erstaunlich. In einer der besten Galerie des Museums, würde ich sagen, die Magna Graecia oder Magna Graecia-Galerie.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Aber ich würde gerne zurückgehen zu dem Punkt, den du schon erwähnt hast, Ruhl, du hast diese epischen Geschichten innerhalb der Herodotus-Narrative des Marathons und evident in den Kämpfen, wie du es bezeichnet hast. Aber meine Meinung wird auch heute natürlich an den Marathon, den großen Rennen denken. 26 Meilen, ist es nicht? Und die Figur von Pheidippides.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Diese Geschichte, ist das auch in Herodotus verbunden, über diesen Runner, der von Marathon nach Athens geht, um sie zu erläutern? Oder war es von Athens nach Sparta? Was ist die Geschichte von Pheidippides?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Mein Gedanke geht auch sofort zu dem berühmten Bild, das nicht da ist, und es zeigt, dass Pheidippides im letzten Atem, als er nach Athen kommt, schreit und sagt Nike, Nike, Sieg, Sieg, weshalb man die Nike-Schuhe-Marke hat. Und dann stirbt er auf dem Spot, nicht wahr? Das ist ein weiterer Teil der großen Mythologie der Marathon-Geschichte.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Die persischen Kräfte wurden also am Marathon besiegt und die Athener stoppten sie dann, wenn wir glauben, dass das von Herodotus kommt. Machen wir einen kurzen Hinweis auf die Spartaner. Lassen wir uns sagen, dass sie über die Angst vor den Trousern und dem persischen König nicht zu ihren Textmessungen antworten.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Ist es so, dass sie im Endeffekt den Kampfplatz besuchen, aber nur einmal, wenn alle Perser tot sind?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
It's an extraordinary narrative and story that you guys have told, but also the archaeology too, and why we need to be cautious when exploring the story of Thauma. der ersten persischen Krieg, dieser Ausflug nach Griechenland und auch, was davor passiert und die Kontakte zwischen der persischen Welt und der griechischen Welt.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Sie haben beide schon darüber gesprochen, mit dem Mythologisieren des Marathons, aber ich würde gerne noch einmal fragen, als wir dieses erste große Engagement beenden, wie bedeutend würdet ihr beide sagen, dass die erste persische Invasion von Griechenland ist, sowohl nach Griechenland als auch nach Persien, aber auch dann natürlich das spätere Legatum davon. Es ist eine massive Frage, ich weiß.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Und linken sie das auch zur Demokratie? Wenn du Hippias in den persischen Räumen hättest, ist das ein Gewinn für die Demokratie über die Tyrannie, oder ihre Version der Demokratie, ihre neue Art von Regierung. Linken sie das auch zusammen?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Eine letzte Sache, die ich auch erwähnen muss. Ist es auch dieses... Interessant. Es könnte eine fantastische Geschichte sein. Und wer das antworten möchte, bitte. Von jemandem, der in Darius' Ohr schreit, dem großen Königsehr, um die Athenier zu erinnern und zurückzukommen, oder ist es diese verbotene Sache, dass die Perser zurückkehren werden?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Guys, this has been absolutely fantastic. And there's also kind of teeing up that the Persians will return. This is the first Persian invasion of Greece and there is a second one that we will cover in time. But for the moment, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast together.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Roald Cananidek and Professor Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones discussing the first Persian War. The first episode with these two experts on the Persian Wars. The next episode will be dropping next week, where we explore the Persian return with King Xerxes in 480 BC and legendary battles such as Thermopylae and Salamis. Stay tuned for that one, coming very soon.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
In the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. If you want more ancient history videos and clips in the meantime, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits' podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Und wir spielen am 12.6. im Kino am Olympiasee. Sagt man am Olympiasee?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Oh, das wäre geil, so eine Tretbootshow. Und wir spielen am 12.6. am Kino im Olympiasee.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Und wir spielen am 12.06. im Kino am Olympiasee in Zusammenarbeit mit unserem Partner Backmarket eine Live-Show, unser allererstes Open Air.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Und es ist ziemlich interessant, Lloyd, wenn man sich das Persische Empire im 500er-Jahrhundert vorstellt, vielleicht auch in griechischen Augen, ist das als ein ganz neues Phänomen gesehen, eine neue Macht, die auf der Bühne kommt, oder hat es da schon mal eine Art Superkraft-Idee?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Und wir spielen am 12.06. im Kino am Olympiasee in Zusammenarbeit mit unserem Partner Backmarket eine Liveshow, unser allererstes Open Air.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Oh, die Sonnenhats. Es ist Trousers eine Art, es ist Sonnenhats die andere Art. Ich liebe das. Aber es klingt so, ich weiß, Lloyd, dass du in der Ausstellung des Britischen Museums in Persien und Griechenland involviert warst. Und du hast Arbeit gemacht auf Figuren wie Ctesias. Also, auch während des 6.
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Jahrhunderts B.C., war da viel Kontakt oder Kontakt und Verhandlung zwischen griechischen Städten und dem persischen Empire?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Es wurde schon erwähnt, dass Lissians, Karians, Pamphiliens, Lydians, also alle Menschen und Regionen in Westasien, Asia Minor, Monde, Anatolien, Westtürkei. Ist es also nicht überraschend, wenn wir zurückgehen zu Lloyds vorherigen Kommentar über den Ort Sardis, der fast ein 9-11-Equivalent war?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
für die Griechenland, dass wir für den Anfang der Persischen Kriege, sollten wir die westliche Türkei und diese Interaktionspunkte zwischen diesen verschiedenen Menschen, insbesondere den Griechenland und dem Persischen Empire, schauen. Was ist die Geschichte, wie dies im Endeffekt die Ausbreitung der ersten Persischen Kriege betrifft?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Du hast die Lydiener erwähnt und das ist so berühmt, es war der König Chrysos, war es nicht?
The Ancients
The Persian Wars: Darius, Athens and the Battle of Marathon
Was passiert dann? Warum resultiert es im Endeffekt in einen Konflikt zwischen den Persern, die auf die Szene kommen, und den Griechen in Asia Minor, aber auch anderen Griechen, die auch dabei sind?
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
And when is this? I've got my eyes on this. It's like the late 7th century BC we're talking now. Yes. Kingdom of Lydia. Yeah. And this is often regarded as one of the great birthplaces of money with these early tokens of this king, Aliates.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Alan, he has recently written this extraordinary new book all about gold and how this precious resource has shaped human history. Now, one key part of Alan's book, it explores the invention of money, of coinage, and how intertwined this story is with changing human attitudes towards gold. Alan, he is a wonderful storyteller.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Is this mints across the Kingdom of Lydia or is it stretching beyond the Kingdom of Lydia? No, beyond.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
I mean, Alan, before we go on to the next part, I want to ask a bit more about that because I know you'll be going on to the next part otherwise. Yeah, sure. The archaeology from Lydia at that time, you mentioned how it seems to be this great bazaar, this amazing marketplace.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
And surely then with the minting of these early coins, if they're made of electrum, archaeological record, do we have a rich record of these earliest coins surviving? We do have.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
They have a more commercial approach. So with that, Alan, to try and understand a bit more about the context as to this king creating this coinage. So it's based on having that significant commerce, that great trade route, so lots of gold and electrum coming in, access to gold. But is it also having to have that stable kingdom, that prosperous kingdom at the same time?
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
All those things combined, which allow for the creation of currency. You're absolutely right.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
We cover everything from the earliest known use of gold over 6,000 years ago with the Varna culture in present-day Bulgaria to the first financial crash in history. Lots of great information about gold and early money coming your way. I hope you enjoy. Alan, it is wonderful to have you on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
So early 6th century BC, Nebuchadnezzar I, king of Babylon, sacking Jerusalem.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Yes, it's not like a Damascus or Tyre or Gaza, is it, in that significance? No, it's not.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
We're talking all about the birth of money today and the use of gold thousands of years ago and the story of the first coinage, early money. Alan, this feels it's closely entwined with this continual human fascination with gold, which has been there for over millennia.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
So what does this amazing resource provide us, Alan, or provide you, for learning more about how all of this gold taken from the Temple of Jerusalem, how it invigorates the Babylonian economy, affects the merchants, are they making electrum coinage from it? What is the effect of this great influx of gold that has come to the Babylonian kingdom?
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
It's almost, I mean, sorry, Alan, to bring kind of a modern analogy here, but if you have like shockwaves from this going across the known world all the way to like Turkey and Lydia and places like that from Babylon, is this almost like the first financial crash in history?
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
It's amazing how the actions of that Babylonian king affects the monetary system that is happening, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of miles to the west in western, what is Turkey, Anatolia today, in Lydia. Yeah, but this is where the traders are going.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
So at that time, when Croesus introduces these reforms of fully gold, fully silver to avoid that issue with electron coins before, is it now that the amount of gold in a coin doesn't directly determine the value of it? As you say, it's a fixed rate.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
So this isn't just with Croesus and this isn't tied to the fall of Croesus. This is something that just goes on and on and on. And yet at the same time, you are seeing... I mean, how long is it before Croesus' monetary reforms, can we say, do start spreading across the ancient Mediterranean, Egypt, Near East and further? It's erratic. It's erratic because, for example...
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Gold has been the worst thing you can imagine as a currency. And to think that it all began with Aliates and his gold and silver coins, and then, of course, Croesus with his gold as well. I mean, Alan, this has been a fantastic chat. I must admit, the last thing I want to say before we wrap up Guantanamo is it's so interesting how the birth of money
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
As a currency, it's that shift in a human psyche back then of shifting gold, not just from the religious sphere, but into the secular, the trading, the commerce sphere as well. It's a massive moment and an attempt almost to change that ideology, those beliefs.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Alan, this has been an absolutely fantastic chat. And as hinted at there, you could talk about so much more than just the birth of money in ancient history. You can talk all the way down. to the 19th and 20th centuries, indeed, to gold and its use in the present day, which leads me to ask you about your book. It is called? It is called Gold, How It Shaped History.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
and we don't even talk about it. We don't indeed. Well, poignant point to leave on, Alan, but it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Well, there you go. There was Alan Herrera talking through the story of the birth of money, the origins of coinage, and how this story, it is closely intertwined with gold and changing human attitudes towards gold throughout ancient history. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
So these are like 6,000-year-old kings who are using gold almost as part of their status?
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Alan, it's really interesting. I mean, it might seem obvious to yourself, but to me less so. But what you were talking about there with the Varna culture and these gold ornaments with these very high status figures. So it suggests, well, it shows that the earliest use of gold by humans, it's not they discover gold and they decide straight away to turn it into currency, to use it as currency.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
It's used for a very different purpose. First off, it's a status symbol to highlight these very important figures, do we think?
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
So can you imagine these people seeing it and thinking it almost as a supernatural material for supernatural beings?
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
certain people so how long is it before gold changes in its meaning at least in certain places of the world in that it goes from meanings like as we've just mentioned there to ultimately the first evidence of money emerging and gold being used as currency well money is a very difficult concept
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
Oh, okay. So King of Babylon, the great King of Babylon, Hammurabi, he's messed up here with the values. He hasn't messed up. He's done it quite deliberately.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. In today's episode, we are exploring the story of the earliest coins ever minted, the birth of money.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
And talk us through this process then, Alan, because I mean, you mentioned sun discs. I might think of early Bronze Age Ireland or Britain, where you have also this beautiful gold lunala. What are they called? They're necklaces kind of things, aren't they as well? Those gorgets, the torques as well. You see those emerging. So these gold objects are starting to emerge across the world.
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
And then you have this kind of exchange of gold too. How does that process develop into ultimately changing into the birth of what we might call money?
The Ancients
The Birth of Money
It's a topic that takes us back over 2,500 years to what is today Western Turkey and the ancient kingdom of Lydia, home to the wealthy trading city of Sardis and famously rich kings such as Croesus, the man from whom we have the saying, rich as Croesus. Now our guest today is the TV producer, author and professor Alan Herrera.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Ich meine, mit Johns Hintergrund und diesem priesterlichen Hintergrund, also ich vermute, er muss auf eine Art oder andere Weise beruflich gearbeitet haben. Können wir uns vorstellen, dass er Griechisch sprach? Sprach er mehr als eine Sprache? Haben wir dazu einen Hinweis?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Zuerst einmal gibt es hier keine anderen Touristen. Es ist also ein sehr besonderer Zugang. Es ist eine sehr barren, sehr arid Landschaft. Das ist die Wildnis und das korroberiert mit der Literatur, mit den biblischen Ressourcen, die erwähnen, wie John the Baptist He was preaching by the river Jordan in the wilderness. And he lived, well, not in the loveliest of accommodations.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Der wichtige Teil seiner Geschichte ist, dass er in den Jordan-River und in die Wildnis geht. Und natürlich, dass er im Endeffekt in den Baptismus von Jesus kommt. Aber ich muss fragen, war es damals ein Präzeden für Individuen, vielleicht hattest du einen priesterlichen Hintergrund oder etwas ähnliches, dass sie sich selbst in den Jordan-River oder in diese Wildnis-Area umgehen?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
He lived in a cave and he ate a diet of wild honey and locusts and also wore camel skin or camel hair. I believe that's in the Gospel of Mark. This is an extraordinary sight. I can see the remains of a few people. Gebäude, die Foundation, die Stoff-Foundation-Layer und viele von ihnen sind von Kirchen bezeichnet worden.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
In der Wildnis ist es ein bisschen sicherer für ihn, aber ich glaube, wenn die Geschichten von seinem Ausdruck sind, ist es eigentlich einfach, ihn da draußen zu fangen, als es in einer Stadt wäre, am Ende des Tages.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Du hast die Wälder erwähnt. Wie lebte John the Baptist? Was wissen wir von seinem Lebensstil, wenn er in der Wälder von Jordan lebt?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Es gibt sogar eine wiederentwickelte Arche, die die Eröffnung eines bestimmten Monasteriums symbolisiert. Aber es gab auch Pools, es gab auch Wasser-Sourcen.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und in Bezug auf den Elijah-Link ist es wirklich interessant, weil du in Jordan heute, nicht wahr? Du hast den Baptismus-Sitz und du hast den archäologischen Sitz. Und da ist das Geheimnis, das sie sagen, war der John-the-Baptist-Geheimnis. Oder es war believed to be John-the-Baptist-Geheimnis, war es das, Joan?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und wir wissen auch, dass es unterhalb eines komplexen Wassersystems war, das bezieht sich darauf, dass Wasser so wichtig war für die Gruppen von frühen Christen, die hierher kamen und in den Jahrhunderten nach der Zeit von John the Baptist und Jesus kongregierten.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Ja, genau das war es, was ich sagen wollte, weil du Elijahs Hill hast, nicht wahr? Und dann hast du all diese späteren, wie du sagst, Byzantinen, late romanischen Kirchen und Baptist-Pools in dieser Gegend. Also wird es so wichtig. Und du hast diese Kave, die Teil der Kirche wird, ich denke, oder so etwas. Es wird
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Das wurde ein unglaublich wichtiges Gebiet auf der Route der Pilger, für Menschen, die zum Beispiel von Mount Nebo weiter nach Osten gingen, dem Ort, wo Mose angeschaut hat und das versammelte Land gesehen hat, also weiter Westen, über den Jordan, zu Orten wie Jerusalem. Gehen wir kurz zurück zu dem, was ich erwähnt habe, den Ursprüngen dieser Phrase, die Scharriere des Feuers.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Ich erinnere mich auch daran, dass wir zu Madaba, der Kirche in Madaba, gegangen sind und die Madaba-Mosaik gesehen haben, diese erstaunliche Byzantinische Karte. Und ich glaube, es gibt eine Karte auf dieser Karte, die zeigt, wo der Baptismus stattfindet.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Es zeigt einfach, wie seit Jahrhunderten, nachdem John the Baptist lebte, Jesus von Nazareth lebte, dass sie glaubten, dass sie den Ort gefunden hätten, an dem all das stattfand und an dem John lebte und seine Gnade arbeitete. Das ist immer noch eine faszinierende Teil der Geschichte, wenn man über die Location spricht und warum er dort wählt und das Legacy davon.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Helen, du hast das Wort Apokalyptik erwähnt, als du darüber sprichst, was John betrachtet und wie er seine Lehre betrachtet. Bevor wir zu dem Wort Baptismus kommen, kannst du ein bisschen mehr darüber erklären? Seine Betrachtung und seine Idee, war es das sehr viel, du hast gesagt, Gott kommt, bereit, diese Art von Apokalyptik-Narrative, du musst bereit sein, um zu kommen.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Wie formiert sich also das Baptismus? Wie wird es so eine wichtige Teil seiner Gnade werden? Inventiert John den Baptismus? Verzeih mir meine Unwissenheit, aber was ist die Geschichte?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Nun, dieser Hillock ist manchmal als der Hill von Elijah, Elijahs Hill, bekannt. Elijah war einer der Propheten des Alten Testamentes und am Ende seines Lebens, wie die Geschichte sagt, hat er den Jordan geflogen, er ist auf eine Helle geflogen und dann ist er auf den Himmel geflogen in einem Feuerstrahl.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und manche glauben in der christlichen Glauben, dass es dieser Himmel war, von dem Elijah auf den Himmel geflogen ist. Wir werden uns heute nicht wirklich auf Elijah konzentrieren. Ich bin hierher gekommen, um mehr über John the Baptist zu lernen und was er hier gemacht hat. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Die Gospels, also du hast es zusammengefasst. Wissen wir den Katalys für den Grund, warum die Welt so schlecht war an dem Zeitpunkt, die historischen Gründe, warum all diese Leute dort gedreht werden? Ist es wegen Rom oder ist es nur wegen anderer Dinge? Wissen wir viel darüber?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und eine Botschaft, die sich weit und nahe verbreitet, glaube ich, auch. Denn das erinnert an eine andere wichtige Figur in unserer Geschichte, bevor wir zu Jesus kommen. Wir werden auch zu ihm zurückkommen, ohne Zweifel am Ende. Aber wer ist dieser Herodischen König? Nicht der große, schlechte König Herod, den wir in der Vergangenheit gemacht haben, Helen. Aber Herod Antipas.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Er ist eine andere große Figur in der Geschichte von John the Baptist. Und ich glaube, wir hätten gesehen, wie populär er damals war.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
There was a short on-location introduction from Bethany beyond the Jordan in present-day Jordan that I visited last year. It's a site associated with the famous biblical prophets Elijah and John the Baptist, both of which will feature in today's episode. But of the two, well, the clue is in the title. It's John the Baptist's story that will take the limelight. Wer war John the Baptist?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Keine Spoiler, keine Spoiler, das werden wir in ein bisschen Zeit bekommen, aber es ist fast das Epitome seines Popularitäts. Du hast Herod Antipas im Hintergrund, aber natürlich bekommst du dann Jesus von Nazareths Anreise auf der Bühne. Also Joan, ich meine, nimm es weg. Was ist die Geschichte von John the Baptist und Jesus' Baptism in den Gospeln?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
In Chats we've had in the past, something that I'd never really realized was how with the Gospels they have almost differing opinions about certain figures and their roles. Is John the Baptist similar? So if Mark's the earliest of the Gospels, but do the later ones decide to try and portray him slightly differently?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Can you almost see an evolution of John the Baptist, his character, what he's meant to represent, even from the four canonical Gospels?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Was ist seine Rolle in der Bibel? Welche Botschaft preist er mit seinen Baptismen? Und warum hat er entschieden, in einer Kave zu leben, mit einem Kamelhaar-Garment und eine Diät von Wildlokusten und Hunden zu essen? While joining me for this episode exploring the life of John the Baptist, we have not one but two interviewees, both of whom are friends of the ancients.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und ich muss auch kurz fragen, bevor wir auf das, was danach passiert, gehen. Das alte Testament, mit den Propheten und Moses und Elijah, diese Namen, die wir bereits erwähnt haben. Und dann, natürlich, kommt das Neue Testament und Jesus. Ist es so, dass John the Baptist das Alte mit dem Neuen verbindet? Ist es diese Art von Prophet oder der letzte Prophet vor Jesus-Idee?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Also ist es diese Art von Verbindung zwischen dem alten Testament und dem Neuen?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Es scheint so wichtig, aber es ist so furchtbar, dass es verschwunden ist. Aber ich glaube, von der Informationen, die Sie haben, ist es folgendermaßen Jesus' Geburtstag? Ist es folgendermaßen so, dass Sie nichts mehr von ihm hören, bis zu seiner Exekution? Wissen wir, was danach passiert?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
First off, Dr. Joan Taylor from King's College London and Professor Helen Bond from the University of Edinburgh. Both Helen and Joan are experts in the story of ancient Judea, modern day Israel and Palestine, at the time of Jesus of Nazareth, and the key figures that feature in his story, including, of course, John the Baptist. Let's get into it.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und ist die Idee, dass sie weggehen, dass Jesus als Gemeinschaft dort und dann beginnt, ist das die Idee? Und John the Baptist, er bleibt so, wie er ist, bis wir hören, dass der unvergessliche Tod, der ihm passiert ist, Helen?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Im Endeffekt ist John the Baptist verhaftet, wie du sagst. Kommt Josephus hier in die Hand für das, was im Endeffekt zu John the Baptist mit Herod Antipas passiert?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Helen, Joan, it is fantastic to have you both back on the podcast and at the same time. Welcome to you both.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Das bringt mich zu der letzten Sache, die natürlich das Legitimum von John the Baptist ist. Wir haben bereits darüber gesprochen, wie man mit den Gospelschriftlern die Veränderung, die Entwicklung von Johns Rolle in der Tradition sieht. Amplifiziert sich das im Laufe der Jahrhunderte? Ist John the Baptist's legacy, sind es große Spiken in seiner evolutionären Reise, sobald die Zeit läuft?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Wir haben euch beide schon einmal im Podcast gesehen, als ihr die einzige Unternehmerin wart, aber wir haben es auch schon einmal gesehen, als wir euch beide gleichzeitig über Mary Magdalene gesprochen haben. John the Baptist ist ein bisschen anders, aber ich glaube, er ist ähnlich, oder? Er ist in der biblischen Geschichte ungefähr in der gleichen Zeit.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Joan, Helen, this has been such a fantastic chat. Last but certainly not least, you both have got stuff in the works, either relating to John the Baptist or this area of ancient history.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und Helen, wir sollten auch deinen Podcast, Biblische Zeitmaschine, erwähnen.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Absolut. Und ihr seid beide sehr viele Freunde des Ancients Podcasts. Und es geht mir nur darum, zu sagen, vielen Dank, dass ihr die Zeit genommen habt, heute wieder zurückzukommen.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Well, there you go. There was Doctors Joan Taylor and Helen Bond talking through the story of John the Baptist. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Now, Joan has been on the podcast several times before. She's talked about Bethlehem, but also the Copper Scroll, this unique, very different scroll made completely out of copper, discovered amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Helen hat auch mehrere Male darüber gesprochen. Sie hat über Pontius Pilate, Jesus von Nazareth gesprochen. Und Joan und Helen haben beide auch vorher darüber gesprochen, über die Geschichte von Mary Magdalene. Also haben wir ein paar Episoden mit Joan, Helen und einem mit beiden, zusammen mit diesem.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
in the ancients archive so do check those out if you want more thank you for listening to this episode of the ancients please follow this show on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts it really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor don't forget you can also listen to us and all of history hits podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of tv documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe lastly if you want more ancient history videos and clips then be sure to follow me on instagram at ancients tristan
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und es ist wahr, dass er oft als Vorhersage zu Jesus in der christlichen Tradition gesehen wird.
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Can we say for certain that like Pontius Pilate we've done in the past and Jesus of Nazareth, that it's very likely John the Baptist was a real figure?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Ich erinnere mich, als ich mit euch in der Vergangenheit geredet habe, dass es die sogenannten apokryphalen Gospels gibt und die anderen, die nicht in die letzten vier kommen. Glauben wir, dass es mehr Informationen über John gab, zum Beispiel vom ersten Jahrhundert, als er lebte, die seitdem verloren worden sind?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Und dass wir nur einen kleinen Blick haben, nur einen kleinen Blick auf all die Informationen, die über diese Figur gedreht wurden, nahe der Zeit, als er lebte?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Ich glaube, biographischerweise kommt es nicht auf die Geburt und seine ganze Familie an, wo er aufgewachsen ist und all das. Wie viel von Johns Leben hören wir eigentlich von den lebendigen Gründen? Und wann in seinem Leben beginnen wir, über diese Person zu hören, die John the Baptist heißt?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Helen, ich erinnere mich, als wir ein Gespräch über Jesus von Nazareth hatten, wo du erklärst hast, wie, wenn du den Kontext der Zeit besuchst, Judäa, was ist heute Israel und Palästina, die Leben der Menschen, die von der See von Galiläa lebten, wie Fischmänner, Karpenter und wie sie lebten, die Kleidung, die sie tragen, ob sie Leisen hatten, war das nicht eine andere Sache, über die wir gesprochen haben?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Ich liebe das. Können wir etwas ähnliches mit John the Baptist vorstellen?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Is there any assumptions about whether he belonged to a particular sect, a particular Jewish sect maybe at all? I know, Joan, we've done the Dead Sea Scrolls, chatted about that in the past, haven't we? And there's always that name of the Essenes. Can that link into John the Baptist's story at all and his background?
The Ancients
John the Baptist
Ich stehe gerade auf einem kleinen Hebel, an Bethany, außerhalb des Jordans, von dem die Begründung von Feuerfahrten entsteht. Das ist ein Teil dessen, was wir den Baptismusort nennen. Der Ort, wo es glaubt wurde, dass Jesus von Nazareth gebürtigt wurde und John the Baptist seine Prechung und seine Gnade machte. Das war der Ort seiner Gnade. Schauen wir uns diese Welt um.
The Ancients
The Roman Invasion of Britain
Und wir spielen am 12.6. im Kino am Olympiasee. Sagt man am Olympiasee?
The Ancients
The Roman Invasion of Britain
Oh, das wär geil, so eine Tretbootshow. Und wir spielen am 12.6. am Kino im Olympiasee.
The Ancients
The Roman Invasion of Britain
Und wir spielen am 12.06. im Kino am Olympiasee in Zusammenarbeit mit unserem Partner Backmarket eine Live-Show, unser allererstes Open Air.
The Ancients
The Roman Invasion of Britain
Und wir spielen am 12.6. im Kino am Olympiasee. Sagt man am Olympiasee?
The Ancients
The Roman Invasion of Britain
Und wir spielen am 12.6. im Kino am Olympiasee. Sagt man am Olympiasee?
The Ancients
The Roman Invasion of Britain
Oh, das wäre geil, so eine Tretbootshow. Und wir spielen am 12.6. am Kino im Olympiasee.
The Ancients
The Roman Invasion of Britain
Und wir spielen am 12.06. im Kino am Olympiasee in Zusammenarbeit mit unserem Partner Backmarket eine Liveshow, unser allererstes Open Air.
The Ancients
The Roman Invasion of Britain
Und wir spielen am 12.06. im Kino am Olympiasee in Zusammenarbeit mit unserem Partner Backmarket eine Liveshow, unser allererstes Open Air.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
The boy's name is Romulus Augustulus, and his resignation brings a long and storied age to an end. For he is the last to bear the title of Emperor in the West. It's the Ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. This is it, the finale of our special mini-series about the Fall of Rome.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
So that context feels really important, isn't it, Adrian? Because in past episodes, we've already covered the general Stilicho and his importance, but then how Honorius, another person, gets in his ear. Stilicho is kind of blamed for one of too many incursions and not being able to defeat them, and then he's assassinated.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
So as you say, it's almost who can get the ear of the emperor that will determine policy. And also, as you say, the The generals who are around him, one of them might have his favour at a time, then they might lose his favour, but then that general might react in a bad way if they feel that the emperor has then just betrayed them. So you see all of that happening.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
So if we move on to the death of Honorius in 423, Adrian, aside from, as you say, being this character who seems quite aloof, it's whoever's by the emperor and whispering into his ear and all that paranoia that's around as well. But are there any significant legacies trying to leave Honorius on a positive note that he leaves to the rest of the Roman Empire?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Over the past two weeks we have embarked on the most epic of adventures chronicling the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. From highlighting the initial origins of decline in the 3rd and 4th centuries to unpacking the lasting impacts of barbarian invasions and devastating plagues, we have traversed the contours and causes of Rome's ultimate fate.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Should we then highlight very briefly, Adrian, I guess one of the big movements, which does seem to be around defence, but please correct me if I'm wrong, this move away from places like Rome, maybe even Milan as well. And you see the rise of Ravenna at this stage, which seems important all the way down to 476 and after.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
If you haven't had a chance to listen yet, do go and check them out. And now to the final chapter in this gripping saga of decline and collapse. The Twilight of Rome's Last Emperors. The story ends with the boy Emperor Augustulus renouncing his imperial throne. But what set this seismic moment in motion?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
How was it that a teenager came by the authority to sign away an empire that had lasted for half a millennium? To find an answer we must delve into a period coloured by violent usurpation and chess-like manoeuvring. To a time where puppet emperors danced to the tune of formidable barbarian overlords.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Well, yes, exactly. And I think maybe we'll be able to explore more of that in time, maybe with figures like Ricama and so on. So Honorius dies in 423. The next emperor I've got in my list is Valentinian III. So what do we know about Valentinian III? It looks like he also reigns for quite a long while.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Well, there's one figure in regards to these people, as you say, with emperors just being figureheads and Valentinian, it seems, was very much similar. I'm pretty sure he assumes the throne very, very young. And one of the first people, it seems, is really significant in his reign. It's not a general, although they're probably there as well. But it's his mother, Galla Placidio, or Galla Placidia.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
When Emperor Valentinian III, who had ruled for some 30 years, was assassinated in 455, the Western Roman Empire was seized by a frenzy. An irrepressible power vacuum greedily sucked in one pretender after another.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Keeping on that kind of thematic part of this chat now, Adrian, if we focus on the Roman army, as you say, you've got big figures like Attila at the same time, which is naturally going to weaken the military forces that you have and so on. But is there, as you say, contrasted to centuries earlier where Italians and Romans are very eager to sign up to the army and do their part?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Has that feeling now gone? Is it very much for the emperor or his generals that they are calling in these barbarian groups to do the fighting for them?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Emperor followed emperor followed emperor, with each achieving little of note, the exception being Majorian, who briefly managed to reverse the empire's decline before he too fell from power. But the one constant in this time of tumult was the gothic kingmaker behind the throne, a supremely skilled military commander by the name of Rissima.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
For two decades he lurked in the shadows, pulling the strings of power as four ill-fated emperors rose at his whim, only to be cast aside when the winds of change turned against them, none lasting more than a fleeting five years each on the imperial throne. The pattern continued after Rissima's death in 472, as described by the Byzantine historian Procopius.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
If we, let's say, go to about 455 AD, which is when Valentinian III is assassinated. And you mentioned Aetius there in passing, obviously the general, the Catalonian planes against Attila does so well, then Valentinian has him murdered, I believe, but then Valentinian himself is murdered in turn.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
I would like to ask a bit, Adrian, then about what happens next, because if these emperors are already quite distant, puppets-like, following Valentinian's death, do you see the rise of more of those warlords and do the emperors become even more puppets-like?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
And do you get also, it seems because I've got in my notes after 455, you get the rise of people like Rissima that we've already mentioned. And it almost feels like you've got this very quick succession of Roman emperors. You've got the likes of Avetis, then you've got Majorian, who seems to be more of a military man and does seem to reconquer large parts of it. But then he ultimately fails.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
You get this quite quick succession and Rissima is there in the background almost as well, all the way to Anthemius. Because it's in quite a small time frame, if I remember correctly, it's about 10-15 years or so. Does that add more to the instability of the Roman Empire at that time? You have very different natures of Roman emperors as well, with Rissima also there in the background.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
That is, until the coming of Orestes, a celebrated Hunnic general from the distant plains of Pannonia. A former envoy at the fearsome court of Attila, Orestes was no stranger to the inner workings of Rome's weakened power structures. And when he saw the maelstrom that now engulfed it, he took a chance to seize the empire for himself.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
It is interesting, isn't it, Adrian, how, as you've highlighted, in one way, even though they're seen as weak and still they are far away from the action and they have their favourites doing their military battles and stuff for them, the fact that Honorius and Valentinian have quite long reigns is in stark contrast to the rest of the Western Roman Empire for that next 20 years or so after Valentinian's death, where Majorian apart, whereas you say he seems to be a bit of an exception,
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Like most of them, they still don't live long and, you know, they aren't very successful at all.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Marching on the imperial capital of Ravenna from across the freezing snow-capped Alps, Orestes convinced the latest in the line of puppet emperors to flee and installed his own son on the imperial throne. That boy's name was Romulus. He would take the title of Augustus when he became emperor, although that was soon ridiculed.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
So that is the big problem, isn't it, Adrian, with the loss of territory and I guess the growing confidence of those neighbouring powers alongside the always kind of stronger, stable Eastern Roman Empire is that they will think, oh, I would like my candidates now in control of this empire, which is getting
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
noticeably weaker within my lifetime as you say Majorian Exception maybe for a bit I don't know why we'll do an episode specifically on Majorian in time it's something personally I really want to cover as you say you just gradually see Roman France, Roman Gaul going to the Burgundians and the Visigoths. You've got Spain with the Visigoths and the Suebi as well.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
And by the time of 472, Adrian, it feels like this is almost the last chapter of it. I mean, this is like the last crisis that we get between 472 and 476.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
He became known as Romulus Augustulus, little Augustus, because of his young age. Orestes' intention was to rule in the manner of his Gothic predecessors, as the power behind the throne. His son, meanwhile, would be a mere pawn in the brutal game of thrones that devoured the remnant of Rome's western dominions.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Do we think Oduwaka's revolt, which ultimately ends in the deposition of that last Roman emperor in 476, the very young Romulus Augustulus, and just to clarify before him, 472 to 476, so you've got very short-lived emperors like Glycerius, Julius Nepos, then he's pushed out by Orestes who then installs Romulus Augustulus. So it's all very quick succession.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Julius Nepos hangs about in the Balkans for a bit and some argue that he's actually the last emperor, but that's another story. But you've still got those barbarian generals in the background installing these figures. With Oduwaka's revolt and him actually deposing the emperor, how much is he kind of following a trend of
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
But the imposition of Augustulus as emperor and Orestes' ascent to the reins of total power did not prove to be the masterstroke he intended it to be. The bulk of the army which Orestes had used to depose the rightful emperor was little more than a collection of disparate barbarian bands, lulled only by the promise of plunder and land.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Or is he following a trend, but is he going to the next level by actually deciding, I'm not now just going to pick who I want to be the next emperor. I'm actually going to now remove the emperors entirely and declare myself king. So I mean, how different is Odoacer in what he does?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
It's really, in a way, quite sad that ultimately the end of the Western Roman Empire is figures deciding, well, with the emperors at least, with that canonical 4768, what's the point? What's the point of continuing this any further? I mean, would you argue that the Western Roman Empire's fate had long been sealed before that point?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
It's such a difficult question to answer to kind of put a particular point, or what could you say to that?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
And when Orestes refused to grant these mercenaries the lands they demanded, he was met with turmoil and unrest. The chaos was whipped into order by Oduwaka, one of Orestes' subordinates, who united the soldiers with a promise to find them the land they sought. It was a daring gambit.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Oduwaka was in no real position to offer what he promised, but by stoking the fires of rebellion and inciting a civil war, he managed to defeat Orestes on the plains of Placentia under a waning August sun. Oduwaka was victorious, but at what cost? It is only with hindsight that we can say his lightning uprising sounded the death knell for an already withering empire.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
I guess it's the fact, isn't it, Adrian, that the Roman Empire had suffered all those shocks in the past, like the third century crisis, but had emerged from it transformed. I guess with all the continuity and transformation that there even is there at the end of the fifth century, you could almost argue that the Roman Empire It endured that, but in a different form.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
It emerges from it in a different form, but all of its laws, Christianity is still there. So many of the things that have been central to it, these successes like Theoderic and so on, they continue. You could argue that it is almost like another third century crisis, but what was the Roman Empire has emerged from it, but just very different looking.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
A month after his victory, Odoacer met with Orestes' son, the boy emperor Romulus Augustulus, and compelled him to stand down as emperor. But Odoacer did not succeed him. Instead, he took the mantle of king, and in so doing revived a title that had lain dormant since the defeat of the ancient Roman monarchy in 509 BC, nearly a millennium before.
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The Last Roman Emperors
This has been a really interesting chat going through those last emperors and the state of the Roman Empire in the 5th century until that date of 476. Adrian, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Well, there you go. That was best-selling historian Dr. Adrian Goldsworthy wrapping up our Fall of Rome series with a look at the final emperors of the West. From Honorius to Romulus Augustulus, we traced the last desperate decades of imperial rule and asked what the very end really looks like. I hope you enjoyed it.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
If you want to hear more from Adrian, be sure to check out his past episodes on the ancients, covering everything from the Parthians to Alexander the Great. We will also be putting out a poll on Spotify for this episode, asking which late Western Roman emperor that we mentioned in today's episode you would like us to dedicate an entire in-depth episode to.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Honorius, Valentinian III, Majorian, or Romulus Augustus? We will do an episode on the winner. If you've missed any of the episodes in this Fall of Rome series, now's a great time to go back and catch up, whether it's to find out more about the internal crises, the so-called barbarians, or the plagues that helped unravel an empire. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour if you leave us a rating as well. We'd really appreciate that. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
The dismemberment of the Western Roman Empire was complete. Its territory fractured between Goths, Saxons, Franks and Vandals. New houses were emerging, carving out their own domains in the west from the husk of a decaying corpse. The age of empire was over. The time of the kings had come.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
To help us unpack this journey into oblivion and the emperors who ruled the Roman West as the sun set on their dominion, I'm thrilled to be joined by historian and best-selling author Adrian Goldsworthy. He's been on the podcast before, most recently to talk about Rome's great enemy to the East, the Parthians, and is the author of The Fall of the West, The Death of the Roman Superpower.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
Adrian, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast today. Thanks for inviting me again. Now, I know yourself with the research that you do, you go from 5th century BC Greece to Alexander the Great to the height of the Roman Empire. And now we're bringing you to the end of the Western Roman Empire. So I hope you don't mind us bringing you so far forward in ancient history.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
To kick it all off, can you set the scene what we should be thinking of, particularly with the Western Roman Empire, as we get to the beginning of the 5th century AD?
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
In the end, there was no fanfare, no epic clash of armies, no desperate last stand amidst the ruins of the Forum when the Western Roman Empire breathed its last. Instead, it fell with a whimper and the muted ceremony of a bloodless abdication. The year is 476 AD.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
In the city of Ravenna, up in the northern reaches of the Italian peninsula, a mere boy, barely a teenager, surrenders the symbols of imperial authority. A golden crown gleaming in the fading sunlight. The regal cloak of office dyed a deep and shimmering purple. The scepter and orb, adorned with Rome's once triumphant eagle, now brought to heel.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
I think that's important to highlight straight away, Adrian, especially as we're going to be covering several big names from this period as we kind of go all the way to that canonical date of 476, especially as some of those figures, as we'll highlight, are so-called barbarian generals. And yet, as you say, the importance of Roman culture to them is so, so high.
The Ancients
The Last Roman Emperors
As we're focusing on the Western Empire and we're going to be going through these big figures, these emperors and the key generals next to them, It feels like we should start with the man at the beginning of the 5th century, Adrian, this figure of Honorius, because he seems to loom large quite infamously, I guess. You've got the sack of Roman 410. I mean, how significant a figure is he?
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Obelisks
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
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Obelisks
Was wissen wir dann über die Türen? Wenn du ein Arbeiter bist in einem dieser Quarrieren oder du übersehst diese Arbeiter und du bekommst einen Befehl vom Pharao, einen neuen, großen, state-of-the-art Obelisk zu wollen. Ich meine, welche Türen hast du mit deinen Arbeiterinnen und Arbeitern, um dann einen dieser Monster-Monumenten herauszufinden?
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Well, not much at all. You're not going to be able to use chisels and saws to any great effect on granite. It's quite hard. It looks as if the way it was done is that it was marked out in the ground. So you mark out your obelisk and then you would clear what would be the top surface of the obelisk. And then you'd work down. die Seiten, um die Form auszuschneiden.
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Aber die Art und Weise, wie man das macht, ist, einen noch stärkeren Stein, einen Steinball, zu bekommen und es einfach als einen Hammer oder einen Hammerstein zu benutzen, um ihn zu schießen oder ihn einfach auf den Boden zu drücken. Und am Ende, mit viel Macht und viel Zeit, könntest du es mit der Form des Obelisks schließen, die du willst.
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Once you've got, you've been able to go down the side, then you have to undercut it, which must have been terrible. You'd have to be, I think, swinging it or harnessing your diorite stone balls to hit it. And you would have to start packing it at the same time to make sure it didn't collapse. And eventually you would end up, if you did this, with an obelisk resting on stone pillars.
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You would leave some pillars in place, but unpacking as well. And eventually then you would knock away Well, it sounds quite quick, but it wouldn't be. You'd cut away your stone pillars and you would end up with your obelisks lying in a trench, that you're working in the trench around it, with packing around it as well. And then you have the problem of lifting it out, which is a whole new problem.
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But it's not a fast process. But having said that, you know, hat shapes that cut four or five, it's perhaps faster than we imagine that it would have been.
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Warum sie gebaut wurden, wie sie gebaut wurden und wie populär diese Monumenten für die Menschen in der Geschichte wurden. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Joining me today are Dr. Stephen Snape and Professor Joyce Tilsley, two wonderful Egyptologists who are also husband and wife.
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Yeah, you've got to cut a trench big enough to fit people in, so it's not just cutting the obelisks that's the problem, it's cutting the trench around the obelisk. You can't just do a thin... Er muss ziemlich breit sein.
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Was mir ziemlich interessant ist, und ich glaube, es ist vielleicht ein bisschen anders, und es ist nicht so nah an der gleichen Größe, denke ich, aber es ist trotzdem eine interessante Art von Aktivität, die viele Arbeiter dabei hat, ist, dass ich vor ein paar Jahren in Orkney ging, und ich war im Ring von Brodger und lernte darüber, wo sie diese Stande von, die von einem Quark, der etwa sieben Kilometer entfernt war, kam.
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Und wir gingen zu dem Quark, wo sie es gefunden haben, kann man an der Helle sehen, dass die Remainer eines unbefinnlichten steinigen Steins sind, der nie aus der Quarriere herausgekommen ist, ähnlich wie dieser unbefinnlichte Obelisk, den Sie als einen finden.
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Aber das zu hören, in der Steinzeit, vor etwa 5.000 Jahren, wie sie auch nur einen großen Hammerstein benutzt haben und ihn einfach weggezogen haben, auf dem horizontalen Block der Steine auf der Helle, bis es weggegangen ist. Es ist lustig, wie es auch die ältesten Ägypten gemacht haben.
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Es ist eine ähnliche Art von Sache, sie haben es für eine lange Zeit ausgebessert, was mich auch an den Geräusch erinnert. Wenn man den Nile-River heruntergelaufen wäre und darüber hinaus käme, würde man die Arbeit dieser Arbeiter hören, von Donnern bis Abends, einfach die Steine gegen den roten Granat. Für Tage und Tage am Ende. Es muss etwas gewesen sein, um es zu hören.
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Now every once in a while we release special episodes that feature not one but two interviewees and Joyce and Stephen felt like a great combination to talk about obelisks. What they are, why the ancient Egyptians built them and, perhaps most interestingly of all, how they went about building them.
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Ja, das ist genau das, was ich sagen wollte. Die Leute suchen immer für irgendwelche alienen Technologien oder Hilfe aus Atlantis oder so etwas, um zu erklären, wie die Ägypten diese Dinge machen können. Aber tatsächlich, wenn man genug Leute hat, kann die Technologie ziemlich einfach sein. Man muss es nur wieder und wieder und wieder wieder wiederholen, um bereit zu sein, das zu finanzieren.
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Während wir hier sind, sollten wir auch zu dem anderen Thema sprechen, das regelmäßig wiederholt wird. Glauben wir, dass diese Arbeitsgruppe Slaves gewesen wäre? Was wissen wir von der Arbeitsgruppe, die diese Obelisken gemacht hat?
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Wie Sie gerade hören, gibt es einige wirklich interessante Informationen über das Überleben von Ägypten, die diese unglaublichen Aufmerksamkeiten über die Erklärung, wie diese großen Monumenten geschaffen wurden und wie groß die Aufgabe war. Ich hoffe wirklich, dass Sie es genießen. Stephen, Joyce, it is a pleasure to have you both on the podcast for the first time ever.
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Es ist interessant, weil wir Rekorde von einigen kriminellen Trialen haben und wir sehen, dass die Prozesse, wenn man verurteilt wird, Du wirst nicht ins Gefängnis geschickt, um nichts zu tun. Du wirst verwendet. Und du wirst verwendet, wie Steven gesagt hat, in Goldmine oder in Quarrieren oder was auch immer. Und ich denke, für viele Leute muss es eine Todessentenz gewesen sein.
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Es muss absolut horrifisch gewesen sein. Ich meine, es gibt auch die Möglichkeit, manchmal auch in den Quarrieren zu arbeiten, wenn es um Kriegsbesitzer geht. Ja, ich glaube nicht, dass viele Leute da arbeiten wollen, ohne dass sie in einer administrativen Kapazität sind. Ja, wirklich hart.
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Du hast es auch erwähnt, in der Vergangenheit, also das neue Königreich Ägypten. Du hast Namen wie Hatschepsut und Seti I erwähnt, vielleicht auch Tutenkarmen, oder? Das ist also der Mitte bis Ende des 2. Jahrhunderts B.C., mehr als 3.000 Jahre hervorragend. Ist das der Zeitraum, in dem wir uns vorstellen sollten, dass die Quarrieren der Tezuanen Obeliske bauen, Obeliske kreieren?
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Das war, als sie die meisten davon machten. Das war fast der Zenithpunkt, um diese großen Monumenten zu bauen.
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Yes, and that's also the time that they're starting to really enhance the Karnak Temple at the same time. So the two are kind of going hand in hand. There's a lot of building work going on in Thebes. Es ist weniger leicht zu sehen, was in Heliopolis passiert. Aber ja, das ist richtig.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Thank you. Good to be here. The topic we're talking about today is obelisks. We've done the Great Pyramid with yourself before, Joyce. We've covered ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses. But I've always been fascinated by obelisks because, in Britain at least, you always seem to see them in every village, town and city today. But their origin point is ancient Egypt thousands of years ago.
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Man hat auch einen Eindruck von Kompetenz in der Familie, dass wenn einer anfängt, es zu tun, der nächste muss es tun, aber besser.
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Ja, genau. Ich bin also ein größer und besserer König, der mehr von den Göttern gefreut wird und stärker ist. Chepsa erzählt uns, dass ihr Vater ihr erzählt hat, Obelisken zu bauen. Und er, Thothmesius I., hat auch ein Obelisk am Karnak-Tempel gegründet. Es scheint, dass die Toth-Moseid-Familien, besonders die Toth-Moseid-Familien, sehr bereit sind, das zu tun.
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Sie sind sehr bereit, das Karnak-Tempel-Komplex zu verbessern und zu verbessern.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Well, you mentioned Karnak Temple Complex there. So if we keep on as one for the moment, but think about, let's say, Karnak Temple some 3,000 years ago in the New Kingdom at Luxor, which is ancient Thebes, as the destination.
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Obelisks
If we continue with that whole process from obelisk being made at the quarry to ultimately being erected at Karnak Temple, we've got to the stage where the workforce have used those great hammer stones to hammer out the shape des Obelisks und dann die Steinpillars unternehmt. Aber ich meine, sicherlich gibt es mehr zu tun, bevor man es dann an den Fluss bringt.
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Ich meine, ich schaue heute an den Obelisk und ich schaue an die Seiten und sie sind unglaublich schmutzige Seiten, sind sie nicht? Also ist es nicht, wenn man nur Steine benutzt, sicherlich sind alle vier Seiten, es ist immer noch ein ziemlich scharfes Design. Machen sie die nächste Partie, das Refinerieren der Quarriere, und dann die Dekorationen? Was wissen wir darüber?
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Obelisks
Yes, absolutely. They're a classic Egyptian artifact. You know, if you think about ancient Egypt, you think about pyramids and you think about obelisks. And yes, but actually people don't know a great deal about them. They're well worth exploring.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Ja, besonders, wenn sie vor Tempeln stehen. Es gibt nicht viel Raum, als sie eröffnet werden. Und auch die Prozession des Obelisks, weil es seinen Weg in Richtung des Tempels macht, ist ein sehr großes Event. Hatschepsut, sie illustriert das in ihrem Mordkreis-Tempel.
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You can see that the barges are processing with the boats on them and so on and people are cheering and then they arrive and she dedicates them to her father. So you probably want it to look quite respectable when it arrives. But again, it's difficult to tell from the art, of course, because they show us what they want us to see. They don't necessarily show it as it was.
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Obelisks
But I would imagine, unlike maybe a sculpture, where you might be tempted to do more finishing touches when it's in its final location, with an obelisk you might do perhaps more bevor es in den Tempel kommt.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Du hast erwähnt, dass man auf Booten gedrängt wird. Glauben wir an Roller mit vielen Arbeitern, die versuchen, sie auf einen Berg zu bringen, und dann sind sie aufgeladen, oder mit Kranen oder so, auf große Barsche, die das Gewicht bewegen können? Was wissen wir davon?
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Ich denke, du würdest versuchen, das Wasser so nah an den Obelisken und den Quarren zu bringen, wie du kannst. Wenn du also einen Kanal schneiden könntest, der direkt an den Obelisk ging, wäre das ideal. Aber das wird nicht immer möglich sein. Es wird durch Wasser transportiert. Wenn sie den Nile nicht hatten, würden sie das nicht machen können. Es könnte nicht über Land gemacht werden.
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Es muss Wasser transportiert werden. Aber das ist ein sehr komplizierter Prozess, weil man große Barges braucht. Und Ägypten hat keine großen Bäume, um große Barsche herzustellen. Also musst du wahrscheinlich aus Libanon Holz holen, um deine Barsche herzustellen. Das ist also ein anderer logistischer Aspekt dazu. Du musst genug Röhrchen haben.
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Du musst Holz haben, vielleicht für Schlecken und Dinge, um Roller-Typen-Devices zu helfen. Aber du musst definitiv... Und dann braucht man natürlich auch die Boote, die die Barges anziehen werden. Es ist also nicht nur die Manforce und die Quarriere. All das muss auch geplant werden. Und es wäre sehr teuer, so eine Boote zu bauen. Wie sie die Barges anziehen konnten, ist uns nicht ganz sicher.
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Aber es scheint sich die Frage zu stellen, dass man die Boote so nahe wie möglich bekommt und dann die Boote nach unten weht. so that it's low in the water by putting stones in it heavier than the obelisk. And then you have the obelisk, you've undercut the obelisk, if you can do.
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And so what do we mean by an obelisk? No such thing as a silly question. I mean, what kind of shape should we be thinking of?
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You raise the boat up under the obelisk and sort of manage to get it onto it that way by removing the ballast that you've put onto the boat. I'm being a bit vague about this because nobody really knows this. Things that people have tried, people have described it. Die Romans haben das beschrieben. Und die Menschen, die sie in moderne Zeiten bewegen, haben auch das beschrieben, wie sie es tun.
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Und es scheint fast gleich der gleiche Prozess zu sein. Aber es ist nicht ganz einfach zu machen. Also das in seinem eigenen Recht, es wäre so schrecklich, wenn du dein Obelisk hättest und es dann auf dem Meer endet. Das wäre schrecklich.
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Kannst du dir vorstellen, dass es eigentlich einige Obelisken gibt, die am Boden des Nils-Rivers sind, die Barge hat einfach gelöscht oder so etwas. Und dann muss diese arme Person zum Pfarrer gehen und sagen, sorry, wir haben deinen Obelisk im Nils-Rivers verloren.
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Ah, also das wird mein nächstes Thema sein. Es wird sein, dass sie es zu dem Ort bekommen, dann müssen sie es 90 Grad erreichen. Na ja, sie müssen es erreichen, nicht wahr? Sie müssen es absolut rechtfertigen. Und das ist etwas, was ich glaube, es ist fast so, dass Leute denken, wie sie die Pyramide gebaut haben. Ich meine, es ist ein anderes mathematisches Brillant.
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Ich glaube, die Art von Equationen, die man braucht, um es komplett rechtfertigen zu versuchen und dann da zu bleiben. Halt es still.
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Ja, und leider, ich habe es schon erwähnt, Steven hat es erwähnt, dass Hatshepsut die Zerlegung ihrer ersten zwei Obelisken zu einem gewissen Ausdruck illustriert, und sie sind auf ihren Tempelwänden, aber sie zeigt nicht diese wichtigen Dinge. Possibly because she would expect everybody to know them and didn't find them at all interesting. So we're sort of left floundering a bit.
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Not everything she shows us is entirely accurate. For example, if you look at her barges, it looks like that she's got ultra long barges and has got two obelisks end to end, which is almost certainly not how you would transport them. But I think she's doing that so you can see there are two obelisks. If you showed one behind the other, it wouldn't be as obvious.
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But if only she'd shown actually the erecting of these things. Again, people have experimented in modern times to try and do it. The idea is that basically you dig a pit and you use ramps and you slowly, slowly tip But again, as I think I've already said, it's made so much harder, because you're erecting it in front of a temple that's already there.
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So you can't have it over... I don't know if this would ever happen, but if you overbalanced and went into the temple, that would be really, really difficult as well.
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That wouldn't be good. No, you'd have questions to answer there, I think, in the dozen.
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You have to be fairly accurate with what you're doing. And I think possibly that would be the hardest part of the whole process, is to get it up. And once it's up, it's probably fairly stable if you put a pit there. Es ist ein bisschen voller Sand und Steine, die man langsam entfernt. Und man benutzt auch Rampen, weil die Ägypten sehr gut an Rampen bauen. Aber ja, ein erstaunlicher Fehl.
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Ich meine, Menschen haben alle Art von seltenen Dingen vorgeschlagen, wie Kites und Wasserkraft und so weiter. Aber es gibt keine Beweise für etwas anderes als Machtkraft und sehr basic engineering knowledge, das sie großartig haben.
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Ich denke, ihr habt das ganze Prozess sehr gut gesprochen. Es ist so ein außergewöhnliches Teil der Geschichte des Obelisks. Die Eröffnung von einem, die Hunderten von Meilen entfernt war, von der Quarriere, in der es geschaffen wurde.
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Ich werde es auch als Easter Egg benutzen, vielleicht auch für diejenigen, die planen, in die Karnak-Tempel zu gehen, weil ich mich daran erinnere, dass ich das vor ein paar Jahren gezeigt habe, als ich da war. Ich glaube, es ist gerade vor dem Hyperstyle Hall. Wenn du nach links gehst, kannst du den Topf eines Obelisks sehen, der an seiner Seite ist.
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Und wenn du sehr, sehr nah ansiehst, kommt das zurück zu dem Punkt, den du vorhin erwähnt hast, Stephen, ist, dass du vielleicht sehen kannst, was fast wie Drillhole in dem Topf des Obelisks sieht. Das waren dann die Hose, die dann die goldenen oder metallischen Teile auf den Topf gelegt haben, denken wir. Und du hast es direkt da.
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Du kannst es an Karnak sehen, wie die Teile eines Obelisks nahe und sehen, wie sie dann das Gold auf den Topf gelegt haben, um es im Himmel zu schienen.
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Ja, absolut. Ein weiterer wichtiger Teil ist, dass es von einem Block aus Stein hergestellt wird, in seiner klassischen Form. Ich meine, heute bauen Leute Dinge aus der Masonerie hervor und nennen es einen Obelisk. Aber in dem alten Ägypten wäre es ein Block aus Stein.
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It's kind of a reminder that we've been talking about the technology, which is really important. But the whole thing is also a religious rite. If you like cutting the obelisk and transporting and everything, it's all a religious rite. zu den Göttern zu geben. Und wir überlaufen diesen Aspekt. Aber das ist auch ein sehr wichtiger Aspekt für die Ägypten, um diesen Aspekt richtig zu machen.
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Wenn wir jetzt auf die letzte Teil der Redezeit gehen und uns mehr auf die Legazie dieser Obelisken, dieser Monumenten konzentrieren, Wenn wir erst einmal in der Antiquität bleiben, wie haben andere ältere Zivilisationen, ich meine, wie wurden sie von diesen Strukturen beeinflusst, die, ich meine, die Worte würden über ihre Erfindung, was sie aussehen, verbreitet haben?
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Ich bin letztens in Petra gegangen und sie haben diese Art von Steinen, Das ist ein ähnliches Design für Obelisken auf einigen ihrer Türen und an hohen Punkten, aber ich glaube, sie sind namens Nefes. Sie haben natürlich das Königreich Kusch im Süden und Sudan, nicht wahr? Die haben eine starke Einfluss aus Ägypten.
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Ich meine, wird die Idee des Obelisks, wird es weit und weit über den ältesten Weltraum transportiert?
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I think it's really difficult to tell to a certain level because a column is a column and lots of civilizations have columns. So I think we have to be careful not to imagine that everything that is long and thin is directly influenced by the Egyptians. But it's clear. I mean, certainly... Egypt towards the end of the dynastic age was ruled by Nubian pharaohs who took the obelisk back home.
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So yes, there's a clear evidence of influence there. Neighboring obelisk-like structures, are they influenced by the Egyptians but have a different meaning? Are they obelisks? Are they a form of column? It's really difficult to tell. But what we can tell is that the Romans were very, very struck by obelisks and they took them home. zurück nach Rom, mit viel Schwierigkeit.
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In Bezug darauf, würden sie in ihrer Höhe variieren, die mathematischen Bedingungen hinter ihnen? Würde der ältere ägyptische Architekt oder wer auch immer mehr über die Bedingungen denken, wie hoch sie gehen können, wie groß der Taper sein würde und wie viel Gewicht die Quadratbasis haben könnte? Ich denke, es gibt viel Gedanken hinter dem, wie groß dein Obelisk sein könnte.
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Sie beobachten auch die Möglichkeit, einen Obelisk zu erneuern, auch wenn sie es nicht getrennt haben. Es zeigt, dass sie auch ein mächtiger Regierer sind. Sie benutzen es für genau den gleichen Zweck. Sie benutzen es nicht unbedingt, um den Sonnenschein zu beseitigen, sondern in diesem Aspekt, um zu zeigen, wie groß sie sind. Sie tun das auch.
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Und dann, wenn die Leute das von Rom herausbekommen, dann beginnen die Romer auch, manchmal ihre eigenen Obelisken herstellen und es radiert von dort heraus, würde ich empfehlen. Und dann bekommen wir eine weitere Phase später, wenn Menschen beginnen, in Ägypten zu reisen, wieder auf die Idee des Obelisks zu kümmern und es wieder in den Westen wichtig wird.
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Hast du das dann gesehen? Nach Alexander der Große, wir kommen zu den Römern und wir sind fast im Vordergrund von der Anfang der Chatrunde, als du den Obelisk in Rom erwähnt hast. Aber natürlich, nach Alexander der Große, hast du auch die hellenistischen Griechen in Bezug auf Ägypten, mit der Ptolemais-Dynastie, die letztendlich mit der berühmten Figur Cleopatra beendet.
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Obelisks
Waren sie auch interessiert in diesen Obelisken? Diese Dinge, die sie vor diesen alten Tempeln sehen und auch mit den Ptolemaisen, die wirklich wollten, dass sie sich, ja, griechisch auf der einen Seite, aber auch die ägyptische Kultur respektieren und sich als traditionelle ägyptische Pharao, ähnlich wie Tutankhamen, bezeichnen. Waren sie auch interessiert in Obelisken, bevor die Romen kamen?
The Ancients
Obelisks
They're certainly interested in ancient Egyptian culture. It's funny because the Cleopatra-Film with Elizabeth Taylor and the way it's been filmed, that ancient Alexandria is dotted about with random Egyptian artifacts. People used to laugh at that.
The Ancients
Obelisks
But the more excavation that's been doing in Alexandria, particularly in the harbour, underwater excavation, it's becoming clear that actually, yes, they did move genuine Egyptian artifacts. already to them ancient artifacts, to their new city of Alexandria. But there's no real evidence that I know of that they were particularly interested in obelisks.
The Ancients
Obelisks
I mean, they're not that interested in ancient Egyptian religion, the Ptolemies particularly, are they? They have their own variants. So it might just not chime necessarily with what they want to use it for, but they're quite capable of taking it and using it in a different way.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Nein, sie haben die Religion verändert, um sich mit ihren eigenen bestimmten Glauben zu befinden. Und es scheint, dass der Obelisk nicht so wichtig ist, auch wenn es eine Form ist. Sie könnten es benutzen. Sie benutzen es nicht in der gleichen Weise, denke ich nicht.
The Ancients
Obelisks
So we get to the Romans and as you mentioned, so they like moving some of these obelisks around and a few of them are taken to Rome. Is it both big and small are taken to Rome? Because my mind will think, having done a previous interview about this, about the great Circus Maximus, the chariot racing hub of the Roman world and I think almost as a symbol of their annexation of Egypt and
The Ancients
Obelisks
von Octavius und später des Königs Augustus, dass sie Obelisken im zentralen Bereich des Circus Maximus II haben. Wenn du also ein Roman bist, der durch das frühere Rom geht, im 2. Jahrhundert AD, würdest du frühere ägyptische Obelisken aus allen Formen und Größen sehen? Nicht von Formen, sondern von verschiedenen Größen?
The Ancients
Obelisks
Und wann sehen wir das wieder überwacht? Ist es mit den imperialen Kräften des 17., 18., 19., 20. Jahrhunderts? Ist das, wenn man anfängt, Menschen mit einem wirklich großen Interesse an Obelisken zu sehen, diese visuellen, alten Dinge mit diesem mysteriösen, hieroglyphischen Schreiben an sie zu?
The Ancients
Obelisks
Ist das, wenn man anfängt, sie mit Steampower und allem, mit Steampower und allem, mit Steampower und allem,
The Ancients
Obelisks
People were always interested in the obelisks that were in Rome. And when they were trying to decode hieroglyphs, they would try and use those. But they would also, unfortunately, use fake Egyptian artifacts in Rome. And it didn't really work out. So they were getting nowhere.
The Ancients
Obelisks
But it's really after Napoleon's invasion of Egypt and Egypt starts to open up to Westerners and people become more aware of these, that they now start to be seen as desirable. in der Westen und sie werden entweder genommen oder gegeben, zwei Menschen in der Westen. Du bekommst also jemanden wie Belzoni, der die Obelisk, die jetzt in Kingston Lacey ist, abgibt.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Du bekommst einige von ihnen mit Geschenken, aber es ist ein schwieriges Geschenk, weil wenn jemand dir ein Obelisk gibt, musst du es bewegen. Du kannst es nicht immer bewegen. Es ist ein schwieriges Geschenk, aber es ist so weit, dass sie sich ausbreiten.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Ich erinnere mich daran, dass er etwas gemacht hat, das nicht so lange herrschte, nämlich in der Dorset, dem Landkreis von William John Banks, der mit dem Bescheidenen von Hieroglyphs beteiligt ist. Er macht das Teil seiner großen Reise nach Ägypten, in den Bergen, nicht wahr?
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Obelisks
Aber ich glaube, dass er das Obelisk von dem Tempel von Philae nach England bekommt, das letzte Schritt von ihm, das Landkreis von Kingston Lacey, ich glaube, er verwendet den Duken von Wellington, den Angriffskarren,
The Ancients
Obelisks
Yeah, people died, didn't they? Transporting Cleopatra's Needle. And Belzoni, again, is a little point, but he retrieves the Kingston Lady obelisk, Und er muss es bis zum Wasserlevel verlassen. Es ist hoch genug in der Nelle, um ihn zu bewegen. Es ist sehr interessant, dass wir lernen können, wie Menschen diese Dinge in modernen Zeiten transportieren. Es gibt uns einen wirklich guten Hinweis.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Interessant ist, dass die beiden Cleopatra's Needles, die in New York und die in London, die Menschen, die sie transportierten, oder die, die sie transportierten, verantwortlich waren, beide Bücher über ihre Erfahrung geschrieben haben, weil sie dachten, dass es so eine große Sache war und so eine schwierige Sache zu machen, dass sie es tatsächlich für uns zu lesen behalten.
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Obelisks
Es ist wirklich interessant, denn manchmal suggerieren Leute, dass sie zurückgebracht werden sollen. Und sie haben so eine Geschichte der Transporte, wo würden sie zurückgehen? Es ist ein wirklich interessantes Dilemma. Sie haben ein Leben außerhalb ihres originellen Lebens. Einfach vor dem Tempel errichtet zu sein, das wäre es, und sie würden dort stehen.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Ich vermute, die Pharao, die sie errichtet haben, würden denken, sie wären da für immer. Aber nein, sie haben ihre eigene Nachhaltigkeit und sie gehen weiter mit ihren eigenen Geschichten, alle von denen scheinen faszinierend zu sein.
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Obelisks
Sie sind es absolut. Und ich bin sehr, sehr dankbar für diese Interview mit mir heute. Ich wollte immer Obelisks machen und Sie haben beide die unglaubliche Menge von Informationen, die es zu ihnen gibt, und auch die Menge von Mysterien, die es noch gibt. Oh, thank you, it's been fascinating. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Well, there you go.
The Ancients
Obelisks
There was husband and wife, Egyptology couple, Dr. Stephen Snape and Professor Joyce Tilsley talking through the story of obelisks in ancient Egypt and their legacy down to the present day. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Joyce, she has been a regular on the podcast. She's been the star of several past episodes varying from Nefertiti to the Great Pyramid of Giza. Vielen Dank für's Zuschauen.
The Ancients
Obelisks
If you want more Ancient History videos and clips in the meantime, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan. Don't forget, you can also listen to us, the Ancients, and all of History Hits Podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Yeah, because if you're a king who wants to erect an obelisk, you're doing this to show that you have absolute control over your environment and your workers and everything. So you absolutely do want to have it as big as you can get it, because you want to impress everybody. But as Stephen says, there's huge problems involved in this. You just can't go on infinitely up.
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Obelisks
It would be very, very difficult indeed, especially to transport it and erect it.
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Obelisks
And of course, if you can do it, it shows that you have the support of the gods. Because the gods have helped you to do it. So by actually doing it, you're enforcing... Nicht nur deine eigene Macht und logistische Macht, wenn du möchtest, deine Kommande über die Ressourcen von Ägypten, sondern du zeigst auch, dass die Götter an deiner Seite sind.
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Obelisks
Denn wenn sie dich nicht erreichen wollten, würdest du das nicht machen können.
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Obelisks
Sie haben meine nächste Frage präsentiert. Warum haben die alten Ägypten Obeliske gebaut? Aber von dem, was du da gesagt hast, über den Pharao, die ihre Macht und auch ihre Begegnung zu den Göttern, War das nur einer der Gründe, warum die alten Ägypten Obelisken gebaut haben? Waren es Leute, die nicht Pharaos waren, die Obelisken gebaut haben, und sie wollten es für andere Gründe machen?
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Obelisks
Waren es manchmal mehr als nur einer der Gründe, warum ein Obelisk in der alten Ägypten gebaut werden würde?
The Ancients
Obelisks
Ich habe nicht erkannt, dass es nur Luxor und Heliopolis waren, diese Hauptbereiche. Wissen wir, wie viele große Obelisken, die überlebt haben? Können wir sie auf zwei Händen zählen? Waren es in diesen zwei Bereichen viele große ägyptische Obelisken? Es waren nicht so viele.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Aber es waren ziemlich viele. Das erste, was man sich erinnern muss, ist, dass sie in Paaren kommen. Also würde man nicht immer einen Obelisk aufbauen. Ziemlich wenige Leute haben zwei. Das verwirrt es. Und du hast einige Pharao, wie die Frau Pharao Hatshepsut. Sie hat mindestens vier aufgebaut. Und sie hat dann versucht, einen absolut massiven zu machen. Wir denken, es war sie.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Was wir haben, ist in einer Quarriere in Aswan, die gebrochenen Erinnerungen eines Obelisks, das der größte war. die in Ägypten geboren wurden, wenn es nicht in der Mitte zerbrochen wäre. Das muss wirklich, wirklich frustrierend gewesen sein, für alle, die da sind. Also, du hast einige, die mehrere geboren haben. Du hast einige, die, wie wir wissen, nur eine geboren haben.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Und viele Pharaos, natürlich, haben keine geboren. Aber, wie Stephen gesagt hat, wurden sie zerstört. Die Römer sind sehr auf Obelisken gezwungen und sie haben sie umgebracht. Sie haben sie umgebracht in Ägypten. Zum Beispiel die zwei Obelisken, die wir jetzt Kleopatra's Needles nennen. Es gibt eine in New York und eine in London.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Sie sind in irgendeinem Sinne nicht mit Cleopatra verbunden, aber sie wurden von Alexandria gebracht. weil das war, wo sie standen, als sie gefunden wurden. Aber sie wurden in Alexandria nicht geboren. Also haben wir diese Obeliszen, die etwas umgekehrt gehen. Und die Romer in der Tat haben viele ägyptische Obeliszen in Rom umgekehrt. Also sind es eigentlich ziemlich viele in Rom.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Du hast es in deiner Antwort erwähnt, dass die Obelisken viel weiter über Ägypten über die letzten hundert Jahre verbreitet sind. Und auch in der Antiquität mit den Romanen. Aber bevor wir zu dieser Part der Geschichte kommen, würde ich gerne zurückgehen zu dem ganzen Bauprozess. Du hast es auch erwähnt, diese Quarrieren und die Location von Aswan.
The Ancients
Obelisks
So, what is this place called Aswan and why is it so intertwined as this origin point in ancient Egyptian history for the building of obelisks?
The Ancients
Obelisks
Aswan is the traditional southern border of Egypt, so it's as far away from the northern sites that you would expect to go down the Nile without being interrupted with cataracts. So it's a long way away from Heliopolis and it's quite a long way away from Thebes as well. But It has hard stone. Egypt has building stone. It's got limestone and it's got sandstone.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Limestone in the north and sandstone further to the south. But it doesn't have a lot of this hard stone distributed throughout the land. So if you want to build an obelisk, you need hard stone. Und so muss man in diese Quarrieren gehen, was natürlich alle Arten von Problemen verursacht. Denn sobald man den Obelisk ausgeschnitten hat, muss man ihn transportieren. Aber das ist, wo sie hinfuhren.
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Obelisks
Und die Quarrieren sind da. Sie überleben immer noch. Man kann immer noch sehen, wie der Stein ausgeschnitten wurde. Wie gesagt, man kann den unbeendeten Obelisk immer noch sehen, was wirklich hilfreich ist, weil es uns eine wirklich gute Idee gibt, wie diese Dinge aus dem Stein ausgeschnitten wurden, weil Granit natürlich extrem hart ist, sehr schwierig zu arbeiten.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Und diese Quarrieren, es wäre nicht eine leise Arbeitsbedingung gewesen. Es wäre heiß, es wäre trocken, es wäre schmutzig. Aber wir denken, wir wissen ziemlich gut, wie sie es tatsächlich aus dem Stein ausgeschnitten haben.
The Ancients
Obelisks
Und bevor wir dazu kommen, also Granit, das ist der Art von hartem Stein, den sie in Aswan bekommen haben. Ist es roter Granit, den ich in meinen Noten habe?
The Ancients
Obelisks
Obelisks, diese großen, zauberhaften Steine, die heute weltweit gesehen werden können. Von New York zu London, zu Rom, zu Ägypten. Und es war die alte Ägypten, die den Origenpunkt für diese ikonischen Monumenten war. Das ist, was wir heute besuchen werden. Die Geschichte der Obelisks in der alten Ägypten.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Shall we talk briefly about Scythian women as well and how Scythian women were viewed by the Greeks? Because I feel we're going to get to the word Amazons in a bit too. We certainly are.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Joining me to talk through the story of the Scythians and their interactions with the Greek world, I was delighted to interview Dr. Owen Rees from Birmingham Newman University. Owen has been on the podcast several times before to chat topics varying from dogs in ancient Greece to the March of the 10,000
The Ancients
The Scythians
So to summarize this first part with you, Owen, it's almost as if the Greek portrayal of the Scythians, there is an agenda there to portray them as the classic barbarian, the completely opposite way of life and people to the Greeks based on where they live in the world, as you say, living far to the north, near the edges of the world. And yet, despite that evident agenda in the writing,
The Ancients
The Scythians
there is a degree of historical basis for many of the things that people like Herodotus write about the Scythians.
The Ancients
The Scythians
to the story of ancient Greek colonisation in the Black Sea and the fascinating city of Olbia that was founded in what is today southern Ukraine.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Well, let's move on then towards that settlement that we're going to be talking about, as you hinted at there, Owen. And I feel the good question to lead us in towards that is, we always think, well, you've already used the word nomadic or semi-nomadic to describe these small Scythian groups roaming the Great Steppe. But did they have towns? Did they have kind of urban areas too? Yes. No.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Now Owen's back to explain the story of the Scythians and a massive archaeological site called Bilsk, an ancient megatown home to Scythians, Greeks and others that features in his brand new book exploring the peoples and cities often overlooked that lived at and beyond the edges of the ancient Mediterranean world. Let's get into it. Owen, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Let's delve into Bilsk now. You've highlighted that it's northern Ukraine, but set the scene, the geography, the topography for us, Owen. A massive settlement, but why is it positioned in that area? Describe Bilsk to us, what the archaeology seems to have revealed.
The Ancients
The Scythians
For a London-based one, the Wall Circuit by Septimius Severus in the early 3rd century AD is just two miles long. So this, in comparison, or three kilometres long. Well, even five kilometres. Well, exactly, yeah. So that's three kilometres long. So compare that to Bilsk, and Bilsk is absolutely gigantic compared to the area of the City of London, let's say.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Hello. Hi, Tristan. Thanks for having me back. We've done largely the ancient Greek world in the past, but this feels we're going a bit beyond it. But still, you can bring the Greeks heavily into it. I mean, the story of the Scythians or Scythians. First of all, let's clarify this. How should we say the word Scythians?
The Ancients
The Scythians
It's interesting though, isn't it? Because you've also highlighted though, although they're those great, almost empty areas. So there are specific areas for industry. Is there a specific area for agriculture? Another one for ceremony. So within you still have those specific areas. within the larger emptiness within this Great Wall Circuit.
The Ancients
The Scythians
No, absolutely. That's fine because we're on the right track. We're thinking parallel on this. You mentioned earlier the word hillforts. You immediately associate, and I was thinking somewhere maybe like Maiden Castle with those huge ramparts and ditches. You can imagine a great wooden wall being atop Maiden Castle in Dorset, one of the biggest hillforts in Britain.
The Ancients
The Scythians
But what also really interested me was when you mentioned the interior and large areas of it being empty and then special areas for manufacturing industry, but then tombs outside. You can almost imagine the tombs lining up, so people would see them on their way in. And that, weirdly, there seem to be big similarities with a particular place in Britain called Colchester.
The Ancients
The Scythians
I'm not suggesting any... Of course not. They know Iron Age Camaludinum, Iron Age Colchester and Bielsk, but this link there that I find fascinating is surrounding Colchester, you don't have a wool circuit, you have these dikes, these great dike systems which seem to funnel traffic in. But the interior of Camaludinum of Iron Age Colchester was the same.
The Ancients
The Scythians
There was areas for industry, areas for agriculture, manufacture, but large areas of it was empty. So it's a fascinating parallel, and that was kind of the Iron Age British culture in the fact that it was a very different style of settlement to that which a Greek or Roman would define as a town, as an urbanized center, as urbanism. So it's a fascinating example of how urbanism
The Ancients
The Scythians
Well, let's move on to the far-reaching contacts of Bilsk when the Scythians are there, but Greeks seem to be there as well. So how far-reaching were the contacts that Bilsk had with the outside world? Does it get to the Mediterranean? Does it get beyond the Mediterranean?
The Ancients
The Scythians
And For the Greeks, when they're talking about the Scythians and where they lived, and I'm guessing it's true with the Romans as well, they saw these people living almost at the edges of the world.
The Ancients
The Scythians
So you have ancient Egyptian script found in a tomb, in a rich tomb outside Bilsk in northern Ukraine.
The Ancients
The Scythians
And so if we've got the Greeks stretching, they've got cities and settlements in the Black Sea, there are contacts with ancient Egypt. Let's say it was a Greek trader, if we focus on this particular object, who was coming from the Mediterranean world or maybe from Egypt, and he's got these Egyptian goods with him, and he ultimately wants to reach Bilsk. How would a Greek trader get to Bilsk?
The Ancients
The Scythians
I mean, from the Black Sea, it still seems a long way from the Black Sea to reach Bilsk.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Look at that. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because I know also one of the key aspects of ancient Greek culture, isn't it? It's the drinking party. It's the symposium. And the person in charge of one of these drinking parties would determine how watered down the wine would be for the event, depending on what kind of event you want. You can imagine if
The Ancients
The Scythians
Some elite Scythians at Bilsk, they get the wine in and they hear about the drinking party culture and then they try to reenact that. But they decide we're not going to put any water in this. Any drinking party that they went to, they're just going to get absolutely hammered because it is full-blooded alcoholic wine that they're importing and they're not watering it at all.
The Ancients
The Scythians
I was going back to also what you were saying about how the Greeks, you know, there's a historical basis for much what they say about the Scythians, but then they kind of bring it up to 11 to define them as the antithesis, as the opposite to civilized Greeks. So wine is something that evidently the Scythians buy from the Greeks.
The Ancients
The Scythians
And as you say, it's replicated elsewhere in the world where the Greeks lived. meet with barbarian peoples. I think in southern France with the Goulders is another example, isn't it? But what about the other way? What did the Greek traders come into somewhere like Bilhousk? What goods were they after that the Scythians were renowned for?
The Ancients
The Scythians
That blending of art cultures is interesting because, so are we talking, if it's the animalistic art of Scythia, but the Greeks, it's like the pottery or wall paintings. Do you kind of see that kind of mix in artistic depictions? Are there more horses visible or kind of what is that unique blend that you get with the Scythians and the Greeks?
The Ancients
The Scythians
So it's not just a movement of physical goods, it's also ideas as well, which is fascinating. So alongside furs, metals, enslaved people, as you say, there's also these ideas and people travelling as well. So was it not just enslaved Scythians who came back to the Greek world? Should we also be imagining mercenary soldiers, Scythian archers, philosophers?
The Ancients
The Scythians
Do we know much about what types of Scythians ventured to the Greek world?
The Ancients
The Scythians
Oh, the Scythian archers from Aristophanes' Lysistrata play and all of that kind of stuff.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Well, to kick off our chat, maybe just a general overview, first of all. I mean, who exactly were the Scythians and where did the Greeks label that they lived or where actually did they live?
The Ancients
The Scythians
I mean, what a nice story and a nice character, a Scythian character to finish this on, Owen. I think that about wraps up our chat today. We've covered a lot of ground exploring the Scythians, the Greek view towards the Scythians and touching a bit on the archaeology too, whether it supports it or not.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Owen, last but certainly not least, tell us a bit about your new book and how the story of the Scythians and particularly Bilsk fits into this new book.
The Ancients
The Scythians
It's an incredibly important book and one that shines a light on these often overlooked areas of the ancient world. So Owen, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Owen Rees talking you through the story of the Scythians and their interactions with the ancient Greeks. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to learn more about the archaeology of the Scythians, these various groups that roamed the Great Steppe in antiquity, then you can listen to three further episodes we've done on the topic.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Two of them have a particular focus on the archaeology of ancient Kazakhstan, Gold of the Great Steppe and Kazakhstan's Valley of Kings. The other episode is with the one and only military historian Mike Lodes, exploring horse archery by the Scythians.
The Ancients
The Scythians
That was one of the first episodes I ever recorded, so if you want to listen to that one, well, you're going to have to delve deep into the ancients' archive. Do go and check out those episodes if you want to learn more about the Scythians. Thank you once again for listening to this episode. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
The Scythians
It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Yes, this is the great step, isn't it? Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan, Maybe all the way to Mongolia and Siberia, as you said.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Given this huge geographic area and Greek interactions with the Scythians, I'm guessing it's not over that whole area as you've highlighted there because it's such a massive landscape. What sources do we have? How many sources do we have that talk about the Scythians? Do we have Scythian writing themselves, or is it largely just from the Greeks and where they interacted with the Scythians?
The Ancients
The Scythians
Do we also have lots of archaeology too from the Great Steppe, let's say in the world where the Greeks would have interacted with the Scythians, maybe in Ukraine or Russia in that area?
The Ancients
The Scythians
Absolutely. I will try once in a while to bring in my own experience of going
The Ancients
The Scythians
to East Kazakhstan and see Kazakhstan's Valley of Kings and Barel and cold conditions, these great Kurgans or these great burial mounds high in the Altai Mountains and they've uncovered the remains of these noble Saka or Pazarik, you know, kind of a Scythian semi-nomadic or nomadic group, these high elites and their burials with their art and their horses and their food and so on.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Barbarians of the North. In the ancient Greek mindset, no group of people epitomized this term more than the Scythians. They were the classic other, these horse-loving peoples that roamed the great steppe of Eurasia more than 2,000 years ago. They wore trousers. They wielded bows and arrows on horseback. Movement was central to their way of life.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Is it an overarching name that's been given to those horse-loving groups north of the Black Sea and along the Great Steppe by Greek historians and writers? That's what we should probably get a sense of with the word Scythian from the off.
The Ancients
The Scythians
Shall we explore Herodotus now? Because he feels crucial to understanding how the Greeks viewed the Scythians. So Owen, take it away. First off, who was Herodotus and what does he say about the Scythians?
The Ancients
The Scythians
Do you think he would have ever met Scythians, or did he venture near Scythian territory on his travels when he's writing? Do you think he would have had conversations with actual Scythian people?
The Ancients
The Scythians
Their women boasted much more freedom and may have even fought in battle. It's no surprise that the Amazons of Greek mythology may well have a historical basis in Scythian culture. So what do we know about the Scythians? How reliable is their portrayal by ancient Greek writers? Why were the Greeks so fascinated by the Scythians? It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Shall we also talk about the star in the yeast? I mean, what can we explore here for that part of the story? Maybe, I guess, the importance of stars at that time as signs of key events, maybe?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
As always with Lloyd, this was a brilliant chat. He's such a great communicator and I hope you enjoy him. Lloyd, hello, my friend. Welcome back to the podcast. Always such a pleasure.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
It's always a pleasure having you on the podcast. We've had you on recently for Darius the Great and for the Tower of Babel. We have talked in the past about these figures that are mentioned from the Bible and then dissecting the stories behind them and the history of these figures and how they're mentioned.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
and the only true son of god is jesus christ himself and it's also quite interesting because i remember in a previous chat we flirted with the book of revelation and you were saying how things like the horror of babylon it was a subtle dig actually towards the roman empire and you can actually see another subtle dig potentially with the nativity scene as well so it's interesting how you know so i think you can read the whole the whole of the new testament
The Ancients
The Wise Men
We've talked about the givers, but before we go on to depictions of the wise men, the Magi, and then the Magi at St. Matthew, let's talk a bit more then about the gifts. Because as you highlighted earlier, this feels like the central part. This is the most important part of the story, you'd argue.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
The wise men, as it's nearing Christmas, it seemed like another great topic to talk about because we've all heard of the wise men. They are such a key part of the Nativity story.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Well, let's move on to the depictions because I find this so interesting, Lloyd. So you have the story written in the Gospel of Matthew. How long is it before this story does spread out of Judea and into the Roman world or maybe beyond the borders of the Roman world? and you then start seeing actual depictions of the wise men.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Do you think she's a noblewoman who's practicing Christianity at the time?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
This is what I wanted to get to next, Lloyd. This is almost one of the most important bits for me. When do we see that great addition to the Wise Men story, the addition of camels?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
I mean, look, before we delve into the details of that, is it the case that before Christianity becomes the main official religion of the Roman Empire, you get these couple of almost kind of secretive cases of the wise men? And afterwards, you see more elaborate, you say mosaics, beautiful depictions?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
We focus a lot on the Roman world. And I mean, just before we go on to names and numbers and outside the Gospel of Matthew, do you ever see any surviving art from, well, the place where the wise men supposedly came from, from Parthia, from Iran and Iraq? Do we have depictions outside of the Roman Empire?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
I mean, it's also interesting because in the past, we've covered topics like the Babylonian captivity and the Tower of Babel. So stories from the Old Testament. But of course, the birth of Jesus, the Nativity, the Three Wise Men. We're going into the New Testament now. Is this...
The Ancients
The Wise Men
This leads me to another question which can concern these accounts and other accounts, because it seems a similar thread throughout, that you have these important figures in another religion being involved in this key story of the birth of Jesus and, of course, with the story of Christianity.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Do you think that's an interesting thing to explore, how you have important, wise figures from another religion that isn't one of the Abrahamic religions very key and central to the Nativity story?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
For you, when you're approaching a topic like this, do you have to have a different perspective, a different mindset when looking at New Testament compared to Alt? Good question.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
You mentioned earlier figures like Calvin, and I'm presuming for you, it must also be interesting, knowing all of this about the Wise Men, the original story, but also these other stories outside of Matthew, then seeing how over the centuries, medieval, Renaissance, even into more recent history, I guess seeing figures that have been exploring this story, the great debates they have
The Ancients
The Wise Men
in regards to the whole and nature of The Wise Men. I mean, the legacy of The Wise Men is another podcast in its own right.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Lloyd, this has been absolutely fantastic. I mean, is there any reading or anything you'd recommend around this if people want to learn more?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Brilliant. Well, Lloyd, it just goes to me to say thank you so much, as always, for taking the time to come back on The Ancients. You're very, very welcome. Well, there you go. There was Reverend Professor Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones talking all things The Wise Men. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget, you can listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts at free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I will see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Well, let's now delve into the story of the three wise men, and let's start with the traditional story. Now, which gospel, I mean, which particular source do we have, Lloyd, for the story of the three wise men?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
We Three Kings of Orient Are. They're one of the most recognizable parts of the Nativity story. The three kings, or wise men, who followed the Star of Bethlehem to the stable where Jesus of Nazareth was born. But who were these wise men, these magi from the East? How were they referred to in the Gospel? Where did they come from?
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Well, let's delve into the Matthew version with the wise men. And I think, first of all, let's go through the accounts of the wise men, and then we can dissect it, as I know you've done previously, Lloyd, with your lectures and so on. So let's talk through it.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
What was so significant about the three gifts they brought with them? And how has their story evolved over the centuries? It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and today, this December, we're exploring the history, the context, behind the story of the three wise men.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
Well, shall we save the gifts till last then, though, and start on the givers themselves? And it was interesting, as you were talking through that passage right near the start, I noted that you mentioned the word, you didn't say wise men, you said the word magi.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
It's a fascinating part of the Nativity story and we're going to explore it in depth with Reverend Professor Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones, a stalwart and fan favourite of the Ancients podcast.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
And Judea as well. I mean, Herod had had to fight. When he gained control of Judea, he had to wrestle control from a Parthian-supported figure. Precisely.
The Ancients
The Wise Men
We're going to dissect the story of the wise men as told in the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament, looking into the historical context, before then exploring their portrayal in other sources, both in ancient Roman art and in other texts that retell the story of the wise men with some interesting differences, including where the number of these wise men, well, it isn't always three.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. It's 70 AD.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Well, yes, guys. Let's explore this trigger point. You've highlighted that there are these underlying tensions between these different cultural groups and various religions and so on, and that kind of contrast and clashing. Highlight this spark and what happens in Caesarea with this Greek man deciding to do this sacrifice outside of a synagogue.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
So it is Jerusalem. I can imagine, as you say, news of that spreads far and wide. For instance, in my head, I was thinking similarities with maybe the Boston Massacre before the American War of Independence, but I'm not quite sure that quite fits.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
But maybe in regards to that value, well, how information about that is spread across to different groups of Jewish people across the area, and all of a sudden, the rebellion, this idea of revolt really takes deep and strong roots.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
And so you have that spark, and as you said, we go from Caesarea to Jerusalem, and Caesar the Revolt is really taking root now and spreading far and wide. But of course, for those who decide still to take up arms against the Romans and join this revolt, I'm presuming it's mostly people from the Jewish population, you're still going up against a juggernaut, against the superpower.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
It's a massive shock, isn't it? Because this army, 30,000, it's not just the local troops that the Jews have been able to manage and overwhelm in Jerusalem. This is an army which would have included legionaries, the best troops the Romans have available, their citizen soldiers.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
It almost feels like another, dare I say, a Teutoburg forest kind of thing, where full sense of security ambushed, significantly mauled as you've highlighted there, and almost then the Romans realizing, oh bleep, this is actually a much more difficult situation. This is a bigger revolt than we actually anticipated, than we imagined.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
And Vespasian at this time, a bit of background context, I always remember him because he's an officer when the Romans invade Britain more than 20 years earlier. He's got a lot of experience. I guess maybe not near the heart of Nero's regime, but he's an important figure. You mentioned it takes over a year for him to prepare and get this massive army to invade Judea.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Has he come from elsewhere in the empire to get to the Eastern provinces?
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Absolutely. An interesting comparison or contrast you put there, Guy, with the Peloponnesian War between Athens and its allies and Sparta and its allies. But let's set the scene. So with the Great Jewish Revolt, what kinds of sources do you have to study this incredibly important period in ancient history?
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
It's quite similar to the vivid descriptions we have of the final fall of Carthage and that very, very bruised and bloody eradication of the Carthaginian population. But with that, so Vespasian with this large army, he's taken those key strongholds in the north in Galilee, defeated Josephus at Jotaparta.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
The Jewish faction opposing them in this war, as they've seen this new Roman army arrive, it's huge and it's gaining success as it's creeping its way towards Jerusalem. Is there anxiety in the Jewish ranks? I've got in my notes here, there's always an internal civil war that erupts around this time in Jerusalem.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
The hardliners are very much at the seat of power in Jerusalem at that time, aren't they? They're determined to keep fighting. It seems like the Vespasian steamroller is going to get closer and closer to Jerusalem. You hinted at it there, Guy, that actually it's Titus who will get to Jerusalem.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
And quite briefly, before we explore the siege of Jerusalem, what is almost this brief hiatus which forces Vespasian to leave the scene and ultimately it's Titus, his son, who will continue the war?
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Alright, so we've got now to the siege of Jerusalem. Guy, what happens with the siege of Jerusalem? This feels like the pinnacle, the climax to this whole revolt with the Romans, tens of thousands of Romans laying outside Jerusalem's very strong walls and those very determined defenders within.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
It's interesting, Guy, isn't it? Because I always remember that famous painting which shows Romans, it looks like they were the catapult or something, and they're at the walls of a gate. And it's a very kind of, dare I say, romantic, but very artistic portrayal of the siege of Jerusalem.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
But I also know historically, you know, those walls, layers of walls in Jerusalem, the Romans fighting their way through each layer. And then one of the great legacies of Herod the Great alongside the temple, which we'll get to, was I think it's at the entrance to Temple Mount or around that area. They had a strong fortress called the Antonia Fortress. Correct.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Very strong, an important stronghold for those last defenders. But once the Romans ultimately breach that stronghold, the Antonia Fortress named after Mark Antony, then they're up on Temple Mount. And is it this picture of those last few rebels fighting in the temple itself? Is it like defending their last great building right at the center of Jerusalem?
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Is that kind of the end of the siege, those last few fighters there?
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
A bloody, brutal end to the siege of Jerusalem. How significant is the destruction and the sacking of the Temple of Jerusalem by the Romans?
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Absolutely. I will mention quickly one of those monuments that you've highlighted in Rome, boasting about the Roman destruction of the temple, which is the famous Arch of Titus, isn't it, in the Roman Forum, which shows those soldiers bringing back I'm presuming it's the treasures from the temple, including the famous menorah.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
There is so much gold, so much wealth stored in the temple that the Romans sack and bring back to Rome. If my memory serves me correctly, there's also that line of thought with the copper scroll, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the treasure it's referring to is treasure that may have been taken out of the temple.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
The truth of that, well, we cover in another podcast episode, so check that one out too. I should also mention that the famous Arch of Titus is showing on it the looting of the Second Temple in its destruction by the Romans at the pinnacle of the Great Jewish Revolt.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Naturally, there is almost an addendum you can do to the Great Jewish Revolt, which is that last stand at Masada with the Sicarii. We have done two episodes on Masada on the ancients with Professor Jodie Magnus in the past, so we won't explore that in detail today. I think to end this episode, Guy, I'll just kind of bring it back to the start.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
The great significance of this revolt, not just in Roman minds, not just in Jewish minds back in antiquity for hundreds of years following it, but also its importance down to the present day. This is a revolt that has endured in the minds particularly of Jews ever since antiquity.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Guy, this has been a fantastic chat. Last but certainly not least, your book on this topic, which explores it in even more detail, it is called... It's called For the Freedom of Zion. Brilliant. Guy, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Guy McLean-Rogers talking you through the story of the Great Jewish Revolt. If you want to learn more about the events that followed the fall of Jerusalem, particularly the siege of Masada, well, you can listen to two further ancient episodes we recorded on that very topic with Dr. Jody Magnus.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
They are called Besieging Masada, the first part, and Myths of Masada, the second part. Two great interviews there from a few years ago. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Jerusalem is under siege. Some 50,000 Roman soldiers have descended on the city, keen to crush the greatest beacon of resistance still standing. The brutal siege that followed would be the climax to a bloody revolt that has been going on for four years. An anti-Roman revolt that still resonates with many people today. We know it as the Great Jewish Revolt. It's the Ancients of History Hit.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Sorting fact from fiction, but as you've highlighted there, Guy, and just to restate, the importance of Josephus, because he was actively there, he was an eyewitness, he participated in this revolt. As we're going to see, you write several works and some of those in detail, he explores this revolt.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
But as you say, and with so many other ancient historians, my mind immediately actually goes to one of those prime figures who wrote about the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides. where he is involved in the fighting.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Analyse the evidence very critically because there is probably some bias in there trying to big up your role in the story and ultimately justify why, as we'll see with the Romans, he is on the losing side.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
So let's set the scene for the ultimate outbreak of this great revolt. So in those decades previous, Guy, how did the Romans control Judea? Because I have in my mind immediately big titanic names like King Herod the Great at the time of Jesus of Nazareth. So what do we know about how the Romans controlled Judea in the run-up to this great revolt?
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Joining me today to talk through the story of the Great Jewish Revolt, I was delighted to interview Dr. Guy McLean-Rogers, the classicist historian and an author who has written an incredibly detailed book on the Great Jewish Revolt from origins to endgame. Let's get into the interview. Guy, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
And this is BC. This is BCE. So this is more than 50 years before the revolt breaks out.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Right, so it goes from cloying kingdom to sending this son basically into a lovely, not an exile, but a farmland retreat in what is today southern France. And then it's the governors are basically the new rulers of Judea, Roman governors. I'm guessing this name's like Pontius Pilate, who we have from the Bible as well. They're the new figures.
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
Well, thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it. You're more than welcome, but I hope you're ready because this is a massive topic, the Great Jewish Revolt. So we've got eight years, a war that lasted eight years. We've got two Roman emperors, a merciless siege of Jerusalem. And I mean, this whole event, it still holds so much meaning today, isn't it?
The Ancients
The Great Jewish Revolt
So there are these tensions that start bubbling under the surface just before the revolt begins. And as you've highlighted there, these tensions, they've been there for decades by the time of 66 AD or CE, and then it's almost an eruption of those tensions. That's exactly right.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Ich glaube, du hast recht und er wird oft überrascht, Shapo, und vielleicht sprechen wir ein bisschen mehr über ihn, sobald die Zeit läuft. Aber bevor wir uns auf das Osten konzentrieren, gehe ich zurück zu dem Anfang. Severus Alexander, der letzte der Severaner, wurde verurteilt, er ist noch ziemlich jung, AD 235.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Wie gesagt, das erste Fallstudium, weil ich denke, dass das auch die Natur der vielen Empörer, die folgen werden, definiert. Let's focus in on the character of the person who succeeds Severus Alexander, because in many ways this is a breaking from the norm in so many different ways for an Emperor character.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Okay, okay, that's a good according to to put in there, to be fair.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Und ist das dann der Begriff, der über die nächsten paar Jahrzehnte wichtig ist? Der Begriff des Königs des Barracks.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
So it's not who has the royal blood anymore or who belongs to this dynasty who's grown up in the palaces of Rome. It is very much who has the strongest army at the time and who is willing to make that play for power. Exactly.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're covering one of the most important yet complicated and catastrophic periods in Roman history. All in one episode. The Third Century Crisis. Der dritte Jahrhundert AD ist regelmäßig als eine Zeit von großem Turm und Transformation im romänischen Empire gesehen, besonders zwischen den Jahren 235 und 285 AD.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Well, how successful were some of these barracks emperors? I mean, if we focus on Maximinus Thrax, we've been talking about him. How long does his reign endure or do cracks start to emerge? Does he prove that he's not up for the task? Yes, he's a military man, but administrative wise, he's not able to control the empire.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Is it very clear with his qualifications that he's very quickly not up for the job?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Well, let's focus in, like thematically, let's then tackle all of these civil wars. I mean, how seismic do these civil wars become over these next few decades? Are they sometimes you get small scale where they actually don't end up in a pitched battle because they pay someone to assassinate their rival? Or do you also sometimes get massive battles and breakaways and so on?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Du siehst fast einen Zeitraum der Lernung von diesen potenziellen Usurpern, diesen Generälen, wenn sie ihre Armee haben, weil sie sicher nicht so dumm sind, zu denken, du weißt was, ich werde jetzt meinen Lock versuchen, auch wenn es vorher nicht für X oder Y oder Z funktioniert hat. Sie schauen und sagen, okay, es hat in der Vergangenheit nicht funktioniert, weil dieser oder dieser Grund.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Ich werde jetzt versuchen, mein Glück zu versuchen. Ich werde versuchen, dieses Territorium zu nehmen und ich werde es anders machen, um zu versuchen, dass mein Ergebnis anders ist als das, was vorher passiert ist. Sie sehen quasi diese Bildung, diese Lernkurve von Usurpers, wie die Zeit weitergeht.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
This is the Palmyran Kingdom, Odenarthus and Zenobia.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Während dieses halben Jahrhunderts fielen und fielen mehr als 25 Könige, fast immer bis zu einem dreckigen Ende. Es gab Pläne, es gab ökonomische Verlust, es gab massive Konflikte, sowohl von mächtigen externen Feinden in Plätzen wie Deutschland und dem Mittleren Osten, als auch von mächtigen Führern innerhalb der Grenzen Roms, die versuchen, ihre eigenen Königsländer auszuweichen.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Können wir auch über den anderen großen Fall sprechen, der sehr erfolgreich war? Das sind natürlich die Usurpers in Rom und Britannien. Denn das ist ein anderes Bereich, wo es scheint, dass sie gelernt haben. Ich meine, du hast eine Insel, die diese Teil der romänischen Empire stärkt, als die Basis deines neuen Königreiches.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Wir haben die Zivilkriege, die Zauberer und wie zerstört dieser Zeitraum für das römische Empire ist. Aber sprechen wir über etwas, das mit diesem Thema sehr verbunden ist und über die externen Faktoren, die du dort erwähnt hast. Wir kommen zu den Osten und den Sassaniern in ein bisschen, weil sie sich für diese Geschichte sehr wichtig fühlen.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Let's focus further west, because you mentioned, let's say, posthumous, there's a Gallic Empire. One of the things is managing that Rhine frontier. So at that time, was there a bigger threat of peoples from beyond, let's say, the Rhine frontier, first of all?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Die dritte Jahrhundertkrise war dieses Meldepot von verschiedenen Katastrophen, die das römische Empire zerstört haben. Und trotzdem, für all diese Schwierigkeiten, hat das römische Empire letztendlich überlebt, obwohl es sich dadurch extrem verändert hat.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Ist das etwas, das man immer wieder sieht, dass bestimmte Könige, wenn sie nicht gegen andere König-Wannabes oder Usurpers kämpfen, anstatt sich zu verlassen und mit der Regierung oder so zu beschäftigen, ihre Arme über die Grenzen oder nahe der Grenzen marschieren, um andere große potenzielle Fehlermächte gegen den Rhine, den Danube oder den Osten zu kämpfen?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Claudius Gothicus is a good example. His name, Gothicus, he wins quite a big victory, even though he's not around for very long.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Unser Gast heute, um diese dritte Jahrhundertkrise zu entfalten und zu erklären, ist Dr. David Gwynne aus der Royal Holloway University in London, wo er ein Leser in der alten und antiken Geschichte ist. David ist schon einmal auf dem Podcast gewesen. Er war unser Gast für die Episode, die wir im Frühjahr 2024 über die Gothen sind, eines meiner Lieblingsepisoden des letzten Jahres, muss ich sagen.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Interessant, denn ich wollte fragen, würdest du sagen, dass es auf allen Seiten, nicht nur im Osten, dass die Feinde, die die Romer im 3. Jahrhundert befinden, stärker sind als in den letzten Jahrhunderten? Oder dass die romische Armee weniger ist? Was würdest du da sagen?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Jetzt, David, ist er wieder da, um den massiven Thema, der 3. Jahrhundertkrise, zu behandeln und zu erklären, warum dieser Zeitraum von Chaos so bedeutend und transformierend für das römische Empire war. Das war ein erstaunlicher Chat, der alles von dem 7-Foot-Gianten-Barracks-Emperor, Maximilianus Thrax, zu der Christenheit und den Empire-weiten Versuchungen seiner Follower in diesem Zeitraum.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Well, let's move on from the Franks, Alamanni and the Goths. I mean, the complicated relationship between the Franks and the Alamanni is certainly one for another tale. But let's do a case study of that Sasanian threat. Particularly should we do the story of Valerian, because I think this is an important one to cover at this time.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Now, we have been focusing largely on the military and the figures of these emperors at that time and usurpers and so on. But the crisis of the third century is not just military battles, external threats and civil wars and so on. Because also natural disasters, climate stress, all that... Das ist in dieser Zeit großartig, vor allem die Flaschen. Sie spielen eine große Rolle in der ganzen Krise.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Ich hoffe wirklich, dass Sie es genießen. David, what a pleasure. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you very much. Great to be back. Well, I mean, good luck. This is quite a topic, the crisis of the third century. And yet, this feels like one of those pivotal, I don't want to say moments, because it's not a moment, it's decades long, but one of those pivotal times in the history of ancient Rome.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
There's famine as well, as well as plague. Just another thing to add to this whole mesh of disasters that seem to be affecting various parts of the empire. So the plague, I've got my notes, the plague of Cyprian hits Egypt big and the east. Maybe not Roman Britain as much. So once again, it's focusing on particular parts of the empire that suffer more.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Oh, so it's named after the person who documented this plague and what he witnessed. Interesting.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
How do all of these factors that we've already discussed, and you've hinted at it already, how do they affect the economy, the whole economy of the Roman Empire? It's not good. And you can see it in wars down to present day. All the factors coming together, leading to the equivalent of a massive economic crash.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Du hast auch über Transport- und Kommunikationsrouten gesprochen. Eines der Dinge, die oft mit dem römischen Empire definiert werden, ist, dass manche Leute in den römischen Empire kommen und es dann fast zu viel wird. People coming into the empire and then a lot of movement around the empire.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Do we think that continues in the third century as all of this is going on, that people are still able to, let's say, go from somewhere, ideally like Hadrian's Wall, all the way to Syria or North Africa? Are those routes and roads and so on still open?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
I mean, it feels not that much time when we're looking at it back now, you know, when we cover an ancient history so many years in one episode. But 20 years, you know, that could be half a lifetime for many people back then. So to live there, you don't even want to think of it. Before we get to that great recovery, Gibt es andere große Beiträge zu dieser Krise, die wir auch erwähnen sollten?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Denn wir haben über die Militär, wir haben über externe Anstrengungen gesprochen, den Zivilkrieg, die Klimapflege, die Wirtschaft. Gibt es andere Dinge, die wir vor der Rückkehr beantworten sollten?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
I see it sometimes with similarities with, let's say, the wars of the successors, where there are so many names following Alexander the Great's death and so many similar names that many people, you know, they refrain from focusing in on it because it is such a crisis. And it's quite daunting to approach.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
It's something you forget, isn't it? Because of course following it, afterwards you get Constantine the Great and Christianity starting to really make a foothold, take a foothold in the Roman Empire. But the rise of Christianity can actually be intertwined with the story of the 3rd century crisis. And that is something, I must confess, I completely overlooked.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
And I can imagine with the crisis of the third century, with so many different players involved, it is complicated and complex. That is one of the main reasons that sometimes we don't focus on it as much as, let's say, Constantine the Great afterwards or Marcus Aurelius and Commodus before.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Wie endet die große Rückkehr? Und es ist wahr zu sagen, dass es eine große Rückkehr ist. Wie beginnt sie? Wie endet die Krise?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Es ist so ein Problem für diese alten Schutzkräfte von Königen. Du tust alles, was du kannst, und dann kannst du es nicht helfen. Sie sind nur einen Tag weg, gehen auf eine Wanderung, und beide werden von Leitnig gestürzt. Es ist... I mean, good on Diocletian, you know, now he's just paved the way. Who'd have thought something like that could happen?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
So Diocletian, balkon-Pesant, findet sich nun in der Hot Seat des romischen Empires. Aber er sieht all diese Leute vor ihm kommen. Wie entscheidet er dann, genug ist genug? Wie strukturieren wir das wieder, damit die Stabilität langfristig zurückkehren kann?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Wenn man sich das große Bild anschaut, scheint es ein riesiges Erfolg zu sein, nicht wahr? Das ist die große Rückkehr am Ende der Krise des dritten Jahrhunderts. Es stellt also die Frage nach, ist die Krise des dritten Jahrhunderts, ist irgendeine Teil davon unverwechselbar? Ist es bedeutend für die ultimative Verlust von Rom?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Ist dieser Jahr, diese Krise, fast ein Triggerpunkt für den ultimativen Fall von Rom und der westlichen Romanen-Empire, oder zumindest der große Veränderung der Romanen-Empire?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
So that's Byzantines, that's after the fall of the Western Empire.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
And that is certainly an episode for another day. But I think you've done incredibly well, David, in tackling this topic and making a topic that is complex and daunting to so many people. Understandable, going through those different themes and how important they are for this half a century long Time of Crisis and the key figures and major players and major events and so on.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
David, this has been an absolute blast and it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Well, there you go. There was Dr. David Gwynn giving you a masterclass, talking you through the story of the 3rd century crisis, the key figures and events and why this chaotic period in Roman history, it was so tumultuous but also transformative in the shaping of the Roman Empire. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you for listening to it.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. And having mentioned Spotify, we will be putting a poll up with this episode and focusing in on particular figures and events of the third century crisis. And you can vote.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Für welche Figur möchtest du uns zum nächsten Mal besuchen, sei es Maximinus Thrax, der massive Thracian, oder der König Aurelian, oder potenziell etwas anderes wie Valerian und sein Erschaffung von Shapur, Diocletian, lass uns wissen. Was auch immer das Pult gewinnt, machen wir ein Video darüber in der Zukunft. Und wir können auch Videos über die anderen machen.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Wer weiß, das ist eines der tollen Dinge in der historischen Geschichte und in diesem unglaublichen Podcast. Now don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits Podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
What a difficult source. Almost going back to the Wars of Successes, we have a similar source, I'd argue, with Justin. A later epitome of someone called Pompeius Trogus. But it's once again the thing of, there are so many outlandish or just wrong statements in there. However, there is some... Wunderschöne kleine Teile, die man von ihnen sehen kann.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Ich denke, das ist eines deiner Herausforderungen. Es ist, herauszufinden, was wirklich ist, was falsch ist. Und ich denke, auch die Archäologie. Was kann mit der überlebenden Archäologie korroboriert werden?
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Es ist ein interessanter Zeitpunkt. Wenn es ein prospérer Zeitpunkt in der romänischen Empire für so viele Teile ist, muss der archäologische Rekord, der überlebt, sehr, sehr reich sein. Das ist ein Gottesdienst, als die literarischen Ressourcen, die überlebt haben.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Und mit all dieser Archäologie, sollten wir gerade einen besonderen Hinweis auf die Koinage geben, weil der Anzahl der Empereure und der verschiedenen Gesichter. Sicherlich muss die Koinage für diesen Zeitraum so nützlich sein.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Das ist etwas, was wir hier vor allem beobachten sollten, bevor wir darüber nachdenken. Also, um aus der modernen Vorstellung von Karten zu kommen. Der materielle Wert der Karte bezeichnet die echte Werte der ehemaligen Roma und der Menschen, die im ehemaligen Roman-Empire lebten. Das ist so anders als heute.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Now, with this whole topic, the crisis of the third century, we're not going to do a whole narrative, go emperor by emperor, because there are quite a lot. And I think it would get a bit tedious after a while. What we're going to do is we're going to go thematically and explore the big themes of this almost century-long crisis. And we can focus in on a couple of particular case studies too.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
But it does make sense to start at the beginning. I mean, David, when does the crisis of the third century begin? And don't just say the third century, please.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Das ist der, der von Septimius Severus gefunden wurde und von Gladiator 2 berühmt ist, natürlich, und Karakalagita und so weiter.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Trajan hat die Parthianen getötet, Septimius Severus hat sie getötet, Caracalla hat sie getötet. Die Romanen haben die Parthianen direkt unterbreitet. Das Problem ist, dass diese neue Dynastie
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Es fühlt sich so an, als ob wir über diese Krise im Osten sprechen würden, besonders weil der Osten der romänischen Empire in dieser Zeit reich war, es war reich, es war reich.
The Ancients
Rome's Crisis of the Third Century
Und wenn das unter konstantem Angriff oder konstantem Verlust ist, wird das durch den Westen, den Rest der romänischen Empire filteren und die Stabilität und, ich glaube, die Rechte, die Rechte und alles von der romänischen Empire, als dieser Zeit progresse.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
This is like Arminius, isn't it, in the Tudor birth forest, how he has to unite all these different small groups.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
We'll say with Boudicca as well, how much she united the tribes was unprecedented for the time, because they were usually at each other's throats.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And is it that as we approach the big date of 376, is there another force that is forcing these groups to move towards the Roman Empire's borders, like the Goths?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So they all start moving, and is it almost a bit like a domino effect? Is it competing for land? Or do you sometimes get those groups that are near the borders of the Roman Empire over those centuries, even before we get to the late fourth century, of actually taking that next step of asking to be let into the Roman Empire and settling within?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
A barbarian storm. And Rome is not ready for the havoc they will unleash. This is the Ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and welcome to the second instalment in our mini-series on the fall of Rome. In our last episode we traced the underlying origins of Rome's decline and examined whether the empire was the victim of slow decay in the 3rd and 4th centuries.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So if there is already a precedent of these peoples outside the Roman Empire, but moving towards the empire, and in some cases being settled within it, why is it almost the next level when we get to 376 AD? And why is this such an important state to explore?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Because what is this group of people that is knocking on the Roman Empire's door on the River Danube, isn't it, in 376? So this is the Goths, if I'm not mistaken.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
If you haven't listened, do go back and dive in. Next week we'll be exploring the impact of plagues on Rome's collapse and the fate of Rome's last emperors.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So let's kind of get to that point of Adrianople, because it feels an important point, isn't it? But that's two years after when they are at the Danube. And Emperor Valens, he's the emperor in the east at that time. He doesn't control the whole Roman Empire. He doesn't. So he's in Constantinople.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
But how does it go from the Romans having to make a decision on the river Danube, whether to let more than 100,000 of these people in, Two, them being welcomed in, but ultimately then having resentments with the Romans.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So did you think, was there ever a chance that he was thinking, actually, these Goths, they're good soldiers. If I let one of the groups in, they could actually be auxiliaries for my army against Persia. It doesn't sound like he's thinking that way.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Today, though, we're moving forward into the late 4th and early 5th centuries, to a time of great instability and upheaval, when Germanic tribes who inhabited the unconquered lands of northern and eastern Europe – Goths, Alans, Franks, Saxons – flooded into the empire.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Does it feel then, do the Goths feel from the attitudes of the local Roman officials overseeing Valens' orders, that there is this mistrust there? There's a feeling that there's something not quite right, that maybe Valens is preparing to double-cross them. Do they get that feeling very early on, which is why tensions really do rise quickly?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
But obviously it doesn't work because soon enough they're at each other's throats again. It almost feels like a red wedding.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
But when we get to the battle itself, is it a case of Valens leading his troops himself as the Roman emperor? Is he overconfident? He expects the victory to be easy. He underestimates the Goths.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Coming initially as refugees and then as invaders, these so-called barbarians would ultimately surround and lay siege to the walls of Rome. With the Eternal City sacked by the Goths in 410 and then the Vandals in 455, the Empire's heart was ripped out twice in a generation.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
One of the worst defeats in Roman history, isn't it? Hadrianople is one of the most famous dates of late antiquity, I guess.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
It's a big event to cover, especially following 376, you know, only a couple of years later. But if we now can cover the next couple of decades with the Goths, they've gained that great victory. I mean, what do they do next? Do they start rampaging across the empire, being a bit more like invaders rather than refugees? They never get out of the Balkans.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Rome did not fall in a day, but these sackings and the barbarian invasions which preceded them still stand as pivotal moments in that process. To understand how the city of Rome found itself torn to shreds by hordes of ravaging barbarians, we must begin our story with the Huns, those fearsome steppe riders we met at the start.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Does it also feel that that deal probably is going to be quite temporary if that ill feeling is still there? I mean, I've got in my notes now almost kind of two titanic figures before we get to the sack of Rome in the early 5th century, which is Stilicho versus Alaric. Does this dominate this next period?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
There is a kind of intervening period before we get to them, and that is that Theodosius fights
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
They're kind of used as the expendable troops, right?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And does he still stay in the Balkans, or does he now start heading westwards towards Rome and this figure of Stilicho? I mean, how does Alaric fare over that next decade or so as he's trying to recover and inspire the Goths in their revolt?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
But Stilicho is able to fend him off. I'm guessing he comes back. And when he comes back to Italy, has the Roman Empire in the West, is it struggling more at that time? Is there no longer a Stilicho-like figure who can lead the resistance?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
They were described by Roman soldier and historian Ammianus Marcellinus as glued to their horses, little known from ancient records, and exceeding in every degree of savagery. Beginning in the 370s AD, the Huns poured out of the east and stormed into the lands of the Goths, casting a long and dark shadow over the shores of the Black Sea.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
incursions across the Rhine or into Italy you've got Alaric there you've got this usurpation in Britain as well and they're just too many problems to deal with and yet he almost feels like the fool guy he goes from hero to zero because there are rivals to him in the imperial court absolutely you know
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Well, Stilicho meets a sticky end. And you've already mentioned how also at this time, after 408, you have the Vandals, the Allens and the Suevs. They're making their way through Rome and Gaul and into Spain. So France and Spain today. So there's a problem there. Stilicho's out the way. Alaric is seeing all of this in the Balkans area or on the approach to Italy.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
How does this all ultimately lead to him besieging and then sacking Rome?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
It is still unclear what drove them westwards, but what is certain is that it came as a devastating surprise to the Germanic peoples they overran and set off a domino effect of cataclysmic proportions. The Goths, pushed out of their ancestral heartlands by these Hunnic marauders, had no option but to flee.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
If he's waiting outside Rome for that long, does the emperor Honorius, or is he influenced by those around him, does he prove too stubborn? Does he push Alaric too far?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
It's an interesting point that you raise, how we of course are doing this with the benefit of hindsight. We know that 70 years after this, roughly 70 years... the Roman Empire in the West will fall. Oh, it will completely transform. But they don't think that. They think the Roman Empire will continue. So it's interesting to learn. Been there for 500 years. Well, exactly. That's the thing.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
You wouldn't expect it to change. No, you wouldn't. Between now and Stuart England or Tudor England. But it does also beg the question, doesn't it? You highlighted how the political centers at that time in Italy, not Rome, it's Milan and Ravenna. So when Alaric does decide to sack Rome, I mean, how important an event is it?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Wrapped in sheepskin cloaks and carting wagons loaded with terrified women and children, the Gothic chieftains resolved to seek refuge within the bounds of the Roman Empire. And so in the year 376 they amassed in their thousands on the banks of the river Danube, its raging waters and natural frontier between the Roman Empire and the turbulent territories that lay beyond it.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Symbolically, is it devastating, but actually politically not that big a deal? I think that's exactly what it is, actually.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Is it devastating, the sack of Rome? I mean, physically, what Alaric does? I know that he captures Honorius' sister, Galliplicidia, but is it like the common image? You have fires in the streets, killing here, there, and everywhere. I mean, do we know how devastating the actual sack of Rome was?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Peter, let's move on to the next big barbarians in the story today, the Vandals. You mentioned them in passing right there, and we will get to the Vandal sack of Rome that follows. First off, who are the Vandals and how do they come into the story of the fall of the Western Roman Empire?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And so how do they go from, it feels such a journey, that they go from Hungary, Slovakia, Central Europe, not near the borders of the Roman Empire, so no direct contact, to by the time that Alaric sacked Rome and just after that, they have established themselves in North Africa. How did they get there?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
They sought permission from the Emperor Valens to cross into his lands. They could offer little to the Romans in way of payment, being the refugees that they were, other than their own manpower to bolster the faltering ranks of the Empire's army. And yet this was an offer the Emperor simply could not refuse.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And that's a really rich part of the empire, Spain and then North Africa.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Vandals have become the dominant part, and I guess that's why when thinking about those great kingdoms that followed the fall of the Western Roman Empire, you don't have the Alans as big in our memory as the Goths and the Vandals today. Absolutely not.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
His army was incessantly engaged in the distant lands of Persia and was in dire need of a steady supply of recruits. Seeing the merits of settling the Goths inside the Empire, Valens granted their request and sent forth several Roman officers to help ferry these displaced peoples across the river.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
One thing I remember from our first ever chat together on a similar topic, but I remember when we covered this part, was almost when the Vandals go off from Central Europe to think whether they actually knew where North Africa was. And then ultimately they have crossed the Strait of Gibraltar into Roman North Africa at this time, but the 420s.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And is it quite a brutal process of taking over North Africa? Is it pretty swift? I mean, do we know how quickly the Vandals are able to take over one of the most rich and lucrative parts of the Western Roman Empire?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
We're told they fight their way into Carthage, but how much is not clear. So they've then taken over North Africa. How do we then get to the point where they've now settled in one of the richest parts of the Roman Empire, to them deciding, actually, let's go to Rome, let's do what the Goths did, but then let's take it to the next level. Why do they then decide, let's go and sack Rome?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So the Eastern Roman Empire has finally decided, okay, we need to act and help our allies in the West.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
As soon as news of the Emperor's ascent reached those occupying the Danube, they streamed across its waters. Onboard Roman naval ships, purpose-built wagon rafts and canoes carved out of the hollow trunks of Vulcan oak trees. Day and night they crossed, with some so desperate to escape the impending Hun raiders that they attempted to swim the rapids and drowned in the process.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And is this sack of Rome? I mean, they've already taken over North Africa, which must have been absolutely devastating economically. But is the Vandal sack of Rome compared to the Gothic one? Do we think it's even more devastating? And then could you draw the conclusion that the Vandals actually have a bigger impact on the fall of the Roman Empire in the West than the Goths did?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
It's always important to highlight the Vandals because I always think that they are overlooked compared to the Goths. So highlighting their significance in the fall of Rome in the West is very important.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
But is the loss of places like Roman Britain in the early fifth century It's not almost the usurpation that you were talking about, which might be dealt with. It's the fact that the Romans permanently lose Britain's tax. It loses the money from Britain. It's not almost the Saxon threat. It's actually that tax reason.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
The seeming resolution of this refugee crisis was said to have initially sparked great joy among the Romans, whilst we can imagine that for the Goths, the overriding feeling was relief. They had escaped their barbarian tormentors and were now seemingly protected by both the natural frontiers and military might of the Roman Empire. Yet very quickly things turned sour.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So we've covered in detail the Goths and we've looked at the Vandals. You mentioned how a key reason as to why the Vandals sack Rome is the aftermath of Attila and the Huns. So it feels integral to this chat that we also talk about the Huns. Well, exactly.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
I mean, what does Attila, the famous leader of the Huns, infamous leader of the Huns, what does he do in the Western Roman Empire during his campaigns there? And how significant are the Hunnic invasions of the Western Roman Empire in the ultimate fall of it?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Over the next 35 years, these alleged refugees ran rampant throughout the imperial provinces, incensed by the reluctance of the Romans to grant them adequate lands. In 406 AD, Saint Jerome, a churchman stationed in the Levantine town of Bethlehem, lamented.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Because, of course, with Aetius, he almost feels like another Stilicho, doesn't he? Stilicho with Honorius, Aetius with Valentinian III. But as you say, that flowering of the Hunnic empire in the West, it's very brief and then Attila dies. So that threat goes away. But he doesn't last long before the Vandal sacrament. Has he fallen from grace too, like Stilicho had before?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Oh, we've got this left, this left, and this left. The rest is gone.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
They don't held themselves the last emperors of the West.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So by the time we get to post-Valentinian III, because he doesn't last long himself, does he, at the end of the day? When we get to that time, the last emperors following the vandals have sacked Rome. By this time, has Roman control over modern-day France? Is that fragmented? Spain is fragmented.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So Roman power is only Italy and maybe the southern reaches of France and the Balkans, Dalmatia region, maybe Sicily as well. There's not much left at that point.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
It's so interesting, Peter, because in this chat we have covered, I think it's fair to say, the major barbarian invasions of that time period with the Goths, the Allens, the Vandals and the Huns. From all of your work on this topic, how significant do you think these barbarian invasions are in the ultimate fall of Rome?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Are they a key contributor to it or was the Roman Empire already on its decline before it happens and they're almost a catalyst to it? You'd get different answers to that from people.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
By 408, the Gothic king Alaric had become so enraged by Roman indifference that he undertook to hold the city of Rome itself hostage. The apparatus of imperial power had long since deserted the empire's once mighty capital in favor of other cities such as Constantinople, Antioch, Trier, and Ravenna.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Especially as those successor states are named after those barbarian groups. The Frankish kingdom, the Ostrogothic, Visigothic.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Yet Rome remained a potent symbol, and Alaric believed the threat of its capture would extract the concessions he desired from Rome's haughty elite. Over the course of two years and three grueling sieges, the fearsome Gothic warlord engaged in a tense back and forth with the emperor. But by late summer of 410, Alaric's patience had worn thin.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Well, Peter, this has been brilliant. And it also undermines, isn't it, how these barbarian movements, these movements of people at that time, they are central to the creation of that early medieval world and those kingdoms that become very well known in the Middle Ages. It just goes to me to say this has been a fantastic chat. And thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Thank you. Well, there you go. That was Professor Peter Heather joining us for the second episode in our Fall of the Roman Empire series, exploring the so-called barbarian invasions, the Goths, the Huns, the Vandals, and how far these supposed outsiders really shaped the collapse of Rome. I hope you enjoyed it.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
If you'd like to hear more from Peter, be sure to check out his earlier appearance on The Ancients about the fall of the Western Empire. It'll be linked in the description below. Peter was also one of our star interviewees for a special two-parter episode that we released last year on the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. So also check that one out too.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Now, if you're ready for the next chapter in this story, don't miss the next episode in the series, where we'll be turning to the plagues, pandemics, and environmental factors that added further pressure on an already fragile empire. at historyhit.com subscribe
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Infuriated by what he perceived to be Roman duplicity and unwillingness to commit to Alaric's demands, he ordered his warbands to sack the city. Rome's great public buildings were ransacked and burned, including the mausoleums of Augustus and Hadrian, resting places of emperors past. Even the tarnished bronze statues in the Roman Forum were not spared.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Hundreds of Roman citizens were captured and enslaved, including the emperor's sister Galla Placidia, while thousands more fled as refugees across the Mediterranean Sea to Africa, Egypt and Syria. News of the city's ruin rippled along the empire's trade routes and communication lines, leaving the Roman world reeling in shock and disbelief.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Saint Jerome, the churchman who in 406 rued the crisis the Goths had wrought, could hardly believe the number of refugees who arrived in Bethlehem by boat to take shelter from the barbarian storm.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And it is hard to believe. It seems astonishing that a refugee crisis that began on the edge of empire precipitated the collapse and sack of a city which had once ruled the known world.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So to help us make sense of it and guide us through the invasions of the Goths, Vandals and Huns, I'm joined by Professor Peter Heather from King's College London, author of The Fall of the Roman Empire, A New History of Rome and the Barbarians. He's spoken with me on the podcast before, one of our first ever episodes, about this very topic, the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And he's an esteemed expert on all things barbarians. Peter, it is wonderful to have you back on the show. Thank you, Tristan. It's great to be back again. You were one of the first people I ever interviewed on the Ancients podcast back in lockdown. I think it was in 2020, where we did cover a similar topic. So we've gone full circle here. It's wonderful.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
And look how far we are now, we're doing this in person together. Let's delve straight into it. So the Roman Empire in the mid-fourth century, if we start at that point, first of all, what sort of Roman Empire should we be imagining?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Because it survived the turbulence of the third century crisis and then is in this period where you have the rich archaeological record and also a rich literary record too. So as you say, it's not on collapse, it is thriving. Yes. I mean, it's a human society. It's not perfect, you know.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
The year is 370 AD. A cloud of dust appears on the horizon, dark against the noonday sun. The thunder of hooves reverberates across the vast carpet of the Great Steppe, a boundless expanse of scrub and grassland spanning from the plains of Hungary to the deserts of Mongolia.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
There's nothing in that narrative which suggests that the thing is about to collapse. Simply put, as it splits between East and West at that point, is it clear that one of those powers is more powerful than the other, or is it quite balanced in the mid-fourth century?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Because where's the line split? Is it almost Greece or the Balkans? Is it almost like a line in the sand kind of thing?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
If we explore their relationship with the people outside of the empire, should we tackle this term of barbarians first of all? Why do the Romans label everyone outside of the empire as barbarians? Well, it's an old Greek habit.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
So the Romans had this kind of superiority complex, do they? Oh yes, very much so. You couldn't accuse them of being modest. But is this reflected in how they treated with these peoples outside the empire, with the so-called barbarians at that time in the 4th century? where no matter where they are in the empire, do they treat them very much as inferiors?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
Or is there actually more of a rational dealing with them as trade partners and so on? I mean, how do they treat with these different groups?
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
I was going to say, things go in circles, don't they? Yes.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
The primal screams of warhorses, bred for their agility in battle, merge with the guttural cries of their riders, creating an unrelenting cacophony. These riders are the Huns. A fugitive nomadic people driven from their homeland by the capricious whims of Mother Nature. Bent on pillage and bloodshed, they descend westward into the gothic lands of Eastern Europe. They are the oncoming storm.
The Ancients
Barbarian Invaders: The Sacks of Rome
What are the main barbarian groups that the Romans have to deal with in this time period?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Gobekli Tepe is quickly becoming one of the most famous early Neolithic settlements from anywhere in the world, and the archaeology is breathtaking. Our guest today is Dr. Lee Clare, an archaeologist who coordinates the Gobekli Tepe Research Project at the German Archaeological Institute.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
I love that you can get quite accurate dates from just examining that early mortar discovered between those local limestone blocks. You can analyse that building material to get a sense of how long this structure was used for.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
I mean, that is so extraordinary. I always associate mortar with much later constructions. For instance, we've done something... Well, it's a mud.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Okay, well, there we go. Okay, thank you for highlighting that indeed. And also, just to highlight quickly, you mentioned kind of local limestone used for the production. Is it all, like all the stone artefacts that you have surviving, whether it's the walls or these T-pillars, which we'll explore a bit more in a second, is it all created from locally acquired stone?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Lee is one of the leading experts on the archaeology so far uncovered at Gobekli Tepe and what it has so far revealed about the people who lived there 10,000 years ago. It was a pleasure to interview him about the Stone Age mystery that is Gobekli Tepe. Lee, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Well, thank you for having me.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
They're not doing huge distances to bring stone to the site, are they?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Well, let's explore these T-pillars a bit more now, Lee, because they are absolutely extraordinary. And I think the clues in the name in their kind of shape, so kind of a long stem, but the horizontal top part of a T is a bit smaller than you'd usually imagine for, let's say, a capital letter T today.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
But with these big stone artefacts, I guess these kind of sculpture things, how big are we talking with them, Lee? Are they life-size or bigger than life-size?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
And the monolith, so that's kind of like monolith or so one stone, is that what you mean? One piece, yeah, that's right. So is the evidence from Gobekli Tepe, is it the earliest datable evidence we know of for monumentality, for the creation of monuments by humans?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
As an archaeologist who's done a lot of work with the media, you know how much we want people to say it is thee or not. But also, I appreciate how that's always a sucker in into something that you don't want to say.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Exactly. You mentioned other sites in the region, and I guess just a couple of names quickly before we explore more about the art itself. Are these names like Kaharun Tepe today? Is that one of the key sister sites?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
It's my pleasure, because to talk about Gobekli Tepe, I mean, this feels like, Lee, one of the most exciting archaeological projects to be working on in this moment in time. The stuff that is coming out of the ground is extraordinary.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Are they quite close together? I mean, potentially after more research suggesting whether there was interactions between the settlements?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
It's all very exciting stuff. I mean, you mentioned how there's a lot of depictions of animals on Quebec Le Tepe or at Quebec Le Tepe. Is it on these tea pillars that you see quite a lot of that animal art?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Those are extraordinary. What kind of animals are being shown?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
It's also interesting. So there are wild animals that are being depicted that they would have seen in the landscape. And I'm guessing then are there no depictions of mythical creatures or something like that that might be attached to a particular story or something?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
And we'll highlight that, how Göbekli Tepe is almost the name that people think of, but that there's more archaeology beside Göbekli Tepe. But set the scene for us, first of all, Lee. Where in the world are we talking about with Göbekli Tepe?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Do you think it's also the benefits of the limestone material? Now, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought limestone is quite soft. So is it easier for them to use their stone tools to carve out these sculptures and this art in that particular stone?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
And the red colour, do we think from ochre or something else? Yeah, that sort of thing. And so you have those... Shall we briefly talk about the human sculptures as well? I know there are less of the animals that you highlighted, but are they quite interesting to talk about too? Yeah.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
What does Gobekli Tepe and Pompeii have in common? There you go. It's very interesting. So kind of to wrap up this part about those special buildings that you've highlighted there, Lee, and I'm glad we covered it first because there's such that thing everyone thinks about.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
If we don't use the label temple, but we keep that kind of extraordinary special label there too, could we imagine them always being kind of like multi-purpose centres of these communities, places where people could gather, tell stories, or maybe kind of food storage or something like that?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Or should we just not be imagining them as serving one purpose, but probably had lots of different purposes for these people?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
I mean, packed with this incredible art. Thinking about it with the colour as well, as you highlighted there, Lee, for someone who was walking in and to see all this imagery on the walls and this structure, it really was a statement. I'm really glad we could cover all of that in detail.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
I must also, though, ask, keeping on maybe a ritual, but I guess death and burial, which kind of links us away, but takes us away from those main buildings. Do we know anything about burials at Gobekli Tepe or how they treated their dead away from those great buildings?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
So is it on the cusp of the Fertile Crescent that is popular today? That's right, yeah. And with the topography of Quebec-les-Tepes today, should we be imagining, I mean, can you see the Euphrates and the Tigris rivers, or is it quite high up in the landscape? What should we be envisaging on the ground at Quebec-les-Tepes?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
I was thinking during your explanation there, Lee, I know it's several thousand years later, but having done stuff in the past on Stone Age Orkney, and you see some of the great tombs that they ultimately build for the richest in society, but with a clear idea of building something massive, potentially, to show off the wealth or the status of that family and everyone's involved in the building of it.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
It's fascinating if there's no similar kind of big burial mounds from Gobekli Tepe in that society. You'd have thought that might be a human nature thing that... Someone who we don't know about the society at all, if they saw themselves as more important, would ultimately try and get a big burial for themselves.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Not very archaeological of me. This is the ancients. We cover all different terms of language for this, which is great. But you did mention in passing there, so kind of residential structures. So do we have evidence of residential buildings, of houses, of dwellings at Gobekli Tepe? And if so, what do they look like?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Oh, the kind of necklace things that you were talking about earlier, the necklaces, right, yeah.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Wow. I mean, you mentioned hearths there. So I'm guessing those hearths area where they were presumably cooking and having the fireplaces, but also you mentioned rubbish dumps as well. Are these key areas in the settlement for learning more about the people themselves and how they lived, what foods they ate alongside the gazelle that you've mentioned earlier?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Wow. You read my mind. I was going to ask about cisterns and the channeling of water. They had that early technology even back then to funnel water into, as you say, this area where the natural water resources are quite far away.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
To me personally, someone who was always fascinated in whether it be sewers or aqueducts or water management, the fact that they had cisterns there some 10,000 years ago, that is an astonishing piece of archaeology that is sometimes overlooked compared to those big special buildings and so on, Lee.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
I haven't got one of those yet, but we're still looking for one of those. These lithics that you mentioned earlier, are these just kind of like scraping tools or the kinds of things that would have been used for either kind of butchering meat or creating clothing or stuff like that? Would they have been the tools that they would have used?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
And Nemrud, is that Mount Nemrud with those famous sculptures of faces in the big rock? Yes, the Kingdom of Comagene and so on. That's a topic for another day indeed. Now, in regards to when we're talking about with Gobekli Tepe, in passing, you also mentioned that whole process of neolithicisation. And I might butcher the wording of that, but...
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Lee, you've painted a wonderful picture of this society, these people living some 10,000 years ago. It's an astonishing story, that of Gobekli Tepe, and it sounds like there's going to be even more coming out to the ground very shortly. But you also painted the picture of how over time the site evolves and it seems to develop into a very prosperous and bigger settlement.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
So the big question is, what else really happens to Gobekli Tepe? Does it all fall off a cliff? What do we know? Yeah.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Well, Lee, this has been a fascinating chat. We've explored all these different parts of the amazing archaeological story of Gobekli Tepe. And it sounds like there's still so much more archaeology to uncover, but also then to record and preserve for many years and decades ahead.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
With that whole process, I mean, how far back are we going with the story of Gobekli Tepe?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Well, you've certainly completed part of that task by speaking to the ancients today. And we really appreciate your time. Lee, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Leigh Clare giving you an awesome overview of the archaeology so far uncovered at Quebec Le Tepe and why this site is so interesting, so incredible. Really interesting to see what will be unearthed there in the years ahead. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me as well on Instagram at ancienstristan. Don't forget that you can also listen to The Ancients and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Now that's enough from me, and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
6,000 years ago, before Stonehenge was built, in southeast Turkey, groups of people were getting together and creating some of the earliest known monumental stone structures from anywhere in the world. Of these, the most famous are at Göbekli Tepe.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
I know it's a bit more complicated than this, but is it almost like that transitional phase between what has often been terms like hunter-gatherers, moving around small groups, small communities of people into what will ultimately be thousands of years later in that area, be like the emergence of farming and settled communities and ultimately the emergence of cities, that kind of transitional period?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Well, that's another term that we should address straight away. You said PPNA there, and I think there's PPNB2. What do we mean by these two terms?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
The site is home to large round buildings, made of local limestone, full of impressive T-shaped monoliths and sculptures depicting headless humans and animals from the landscape. In the past, Gobekli Tepe has been labelled the first temple. But, as you're about to hear, that's not the case. It's much more complex. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Do we know why this area of the world would have been so attractive to these people some 10,000 years ago? Should we be imagining some changes in the topography 10,000 years ago at the end of the Ice Age that made it more attractive than other areas for these early people to start becoming more sedentary in places like this?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Well, the work by yourself and the team and everyone who's been working at Göbekli Tepe is slowly revealing more and more about the site. Just quickly on that, Lee, I mean, how long has archaeological work been going on at Göbekli Tepe? How long has the site been known?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
And then from then on, has it been season on season, even with COVID, learning more about the site?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Today we're exploring the fascinating story of Gobekli Tepe, one of the oldest human sedentary settlements ever found. Think of it very loosely as a 10,000-year-old early Neolithic village. And by Neolithic, I mean that period of time after the Ice Age when people started to adopt a settled farming lifestyle.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Well, there you go. Well, I think we've set the context then really nicely for our chat now to delve into the archaeology so far uncoveredly. And I feel we need to discuss, first of all, I guess those big buildings at Gobekli Tepe that the site is most famous for.
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
Now, what are these structures that always seem to be at the centre of any newspaper article or any discussion of Gobekli Tepe today that the site is known for, first of all?
The Ancients
Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?
What should we be imagining with those structures? You set that explanation of various parts of these buildings that we're going to explore, like the art as well and these pillars. But for someone who actually doesn't know what these buildings look like, how should we be imagining these large buildings that seem to always take up so much of the story of Gobekli Tepe?
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Belief. Well, in a Christian world, I probably put two hands together in prayer or something like that.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Well, to answer all of this and much more, I was delighted to interview the Egyptologist Hugo Cook. Hugo teaches a course on hieroglyphs at the British Museum, he is an expert in ancient Egyptian texts, and his passion for the subject, well, it's undeniable. It was great to interview Hugo all about hieroglyphs and how these symbols have become one of the greatest gateways into ancient Egypt.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
And is the fishing one, is it like a little fish or is it something a bit different?
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
You are welcome. You contacted me about this and your expertise in the subject of hieroglyphs. When you mentioned the word hieroglyphs, I was just like, okay, yeah, definitely, because we've never done an episode on it before. Hieroglyphs, like the pyramids, like Tutankhamen, it feels like another of those central things that has become the definitive symbol of ancient Egypt for all of us today.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
So it's a story being read out, and also, as you say, the fact that not many people would have been able to read the script, so that one person who could would be reading it out.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
And it's an amazing image to think of an Egyptian village, maybe they're all farmers during the day by the River Nile, and then they sit and they hear this story that's being read out to them on papyrus, and the man or woman who is reading it out The scribe or whoever is reading out those signs and is able to tell the story, which is absolutely extraordinary.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
With the particular script of hieroglyphs and the Egyptian language, how many thousands of years are we talking about that we know that hieroglyphs are used as a particular script for the Egyptian language?
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
So are there mythological stories associated with hieroglyphs as a gift from the gods?
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Do you think it is partly that mystery of these symbols and I guess their great age that helps explain why when people go to a big museum today and they go to the Egypt's gallery, they're always looking at these hieroglyphs and these symbols of birds and other symbols and so on.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Do you think it is that mystery that contributes largely to why they have captured the public imagination so greatly today?
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
So you get this kind of evolution in the complexity of hieroglyphs as time goes on, and these adding and adding more symbols to it. There are so many examples of hieroglyphs surviving, and you might immediately think of hieroglyphs carved onto temples in stone, and those examples, as you've already highlighted, those on papyrus.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
It feels a difficult question, but are there the best surviving examples of hieroglyphs from a particular site or a particular place that we should talk about? Well, it's a good question.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Hugo, it's absolutely extraordinary. And I'll bring up very quickly that Karnak Temple complex and the amazing hieroglyphs that you can see on the walls, carved into the walls, some of them very much. I talk about Ramesses II as well, don't they? So absolutely extraordinary. And it does feel that that New Kingdom Egypt, there is a real kind of zenith in hieroglyph art.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
What I also remember from going to Karnak was actually you see some of those pillars. I mean, they're completely coloured. Well, they are coloured and they were coloured and they're restoring them now. So it's also, I guess, to think about hieroglyphs with an association with colour, but also slightly different, but we'll kind of merge these questions together with magic too.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
This idea of these animals being etched into stone or on papyrus. And I guess that belief, I mean, Can these animals come to life, especially if they're colourful animals too? So reflecting the actual colours of an animal you'll see in your day-to-day life.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Sorry, just to change it, it's made from ochre, is it? And the black is carbon, so ochre and carbon.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
I guess one would be crocodiles as well, wouldn't it? That would be the big one. They're just like, we don't want a crocodile emerging.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Hugo, what ultimately happens to hieroglyphs? Do we just think the tradition of using this type of script for the Egyptian language, as time goes on, it becomes a bit more obsolete, less people know about it, and ultimately it becomes a lost script?
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Once again, another big question, but to kick it all off, just how much of a window do hieroglyphs give us? Now, once again, also they've been deciphered. Do they give us into daily life, into ancient Egyptian society?
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Well, Hugo, how about that? The origins of the alphabet stemming back to this mine in the Sinai Desert. What a thought to leave it on there. A lovely thought as well for emphasising that great legacy of hieroglyphs too.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Hugo, your passion for hieroglyphs has been evident throughout this conversation, this interview, and it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Well, there you go. There was Hugo Cook talking all of things hieroglyphs. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
Pergamon, just to clarify, that was a great city that emerged after Alexander the Great in Western Turkey today. But by that time, Alexandria in Egypt was that intellectual dissenter and hieroglyphs were still being used on the papyrus.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring the story of arguably the most captivating script from antiquity, the hieroglyphs of ancient Egypt. When you visit Egypt today or see Egyptian archaeology in museums, hieroglyphs are usually never far away. These pictorial symbols are adorned to the walls of temples, tombs and towering obelisks.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
It's very interesting that you've highlighted straight away how the Egyptian language, its longevity, and the fact that to differentiate hieroglyphs. Hieroglyphs, obviously interlinked, but it's a script of the Egyptian language. It goes alongside, as you say, I believe the word is these cursive shorthands that you mentioned, hieratic, demotic, and then Coptic.
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
A huge period of time, thousands of years. How do hieroglyphs work? What do they mean? Each symbol mean, I'm presuming a bird, as you said earlier, doesn't just mean a bird. Why are those symbols picked and what do they represent?
The Ancients
Hieroglyphs
They were written down on papyrus and were used to record everything from transactions to poetry to official peace treaties. So how did hieroglyphs actually work? What did each symbol mean and how many were there? Did the Egyptians believe these symbols had magical properties? And for how long was this script useful?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Diese außergewöhnlichen Artefakte, diese trinken Karten, die den transportierten Transport repräsentieren, diese gedrehten Schuhe. Die Theorie ist, dass die Borrellaz-Mitglieder diese Erfindung von ihnen feiern, um diese gedrehten Schuhe zu erschaffen. Für ihre Mining.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Und um dieses Erlebnis zu feiern und wie wichtig es für sie war, kannst du sie sehen, die miniature Versionen dieser Räder auf diesen sehr elaboraten Trinkkappen zu kreieren.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Opinionen bleiben dividiert darüber, wo die Geburtstätte der Runde sein sollte, wenn es überhaupt eine Geburtstätte gibt.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Also es geht einfach direkt nach oben und nach unten, nicht um Kurven und so weiter.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
So Richard, this is quite interesting. So it's kind of combining all that information. So you have those ceramics there with the wheels on the bottom, which were, you know, celebrating this invention. And then the discovery of an actual wheel from that area of the world. Is it using evidence like that to kind of create this hypothesis that it was...
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Diese Weile, die er inventiert hat, und der Grund dafür ist es, diese dünnen Tunnel hoch und runter zu bringen. Sie transportieren Koppel aus der Mine, bringen sie zurück in Kühlschritte, um mehr rauszukriegen. Wie kommt das alles zusammen? Ich weiß nicht, ob die Borrelage-Kultur, ob eine physische Weile auch aus dieser Kultur kommt, oder ist das später?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Letztlich, aber, hat ein neuer Papier, der in der Akademischen Journalistik der Royal Society veröffentlicht wurde, besprochen, dass die Rute in Osteuropa entwickelt wurde, von prehistorischen Minern, die fast 6.000 Jahre her in den Carpathian Mountains lebten und zu einer ältesten Kultur gehörten, der Borelaz-Kultur genannt wurde.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
So you realize how valuable the proto-mine cart that is developed by this Boralaz-Culture, you realize how important it would be on these baskets for transporting a lot of material out of the mine.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Deine Theorie ist, dass die Borelaz-Miner der westlichen Ukraine oder der Karpathien-Mountain dieser Region, sie inventierten das Rad 6.000 Jahre ago und es wurde so eine wichtige Teil der Welt. von ihrer Kultur, dieser Art Basket-Wheel-System. Wie haben Sie entschieden, diese Theorie mit modernen Technologien zu testen? Was haben Sie entschieden, damit Sie das in der modernen Welt testen können?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Die Argumentation ist, dass die Rute entwickelt wurde, um diese Metall- oder Minern zu helfen, große Mengen von Koppel aus ihren Tunneln zu transportieren. Es ist eine Theorie, die seit einigen Jahren vorhanden ist, insbesondere von dem verehrten Archäologen Dr. Richard Bullitt, Professor Emeritus an Columbia University.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Okay dann, Richard. Du hast uns gut eingeladen, in die nächste Partie deines Forschens zu gehen, nämlich in die Interview mit deinem Kollegen Kai, über das, was er gemacht hat, um diese Theorie voranzubringen. Und Richard, ich möchte nur sagen, vielen Dank, dass du dir die Zeit genommen hast, heute auf dem Podcast zu sein.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
So there was Professor Richard Bullitt talking through why he believes the wheel originated with these prehistoric copper miners in the Carpathian Mountains almost 6,000 years ago. How these wheeled baskets made it easier for them to extract large amounts of copper out of their tunnels. We now move on to the science.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Dr. Kai James is a computational engineer who worked on this new research alongside Richard and software engineer Dr. Lee Allacock. Kai wollte sehen, ob seine High-Tech-Computer-Modelle Richards Theorie unterstützen würden, dass die Räder in den Minds von Zentral- und Osten-Europa originierten und wie technologisch dieses frühere Räder-Design entwickelt wurde.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Aber was dieses letzte Papier grundlegend macht, ist, dass das Team dahinter moderne Wissenschaft und Computing arbeitete, um die Archäologie zu unterstützen. Sie haben kraftvolle Computers gebraucht, um Modelle und Simulationen zu erschaffen, um weitere Beweise dazu zu geben, warum diese Theorie, dass das Rad in den Carpathianern gegründet wurde, möglich ist.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Wie genau können Computern mit dem helfen? Na, du wirst es herausfinden. Kai, es ist ein Vergnügen. Es ist toll, dich heute auf dem Podcast zu haben. Es ist toll, hier zu sein. Danke. Now, we've just heard from Richard about his work and his theory that the wheel originated with these early miners in the Carpathians. I now want to bring in yourself, Kai, and the science behind this new research.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
But first off, I've seen the words computational engineering. Forgive my ignorance, but what is computational engineering? So, computational engineering is...
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Was hat dich dazu gefühlt, Richard's Research zu entdecken? Von modernen Technologien, neuen Ideen, Methoden und Theorien und so weiter, bis hin zu Engineering von Tausenden von Jahren her und der Erfindung der Welt. Was hat dich dazu gebracht, Richard's Research zu entdecken?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Es ist ziemlich wissenschaftlich, aber die Computer-Algorithmen, die das Team designt hat, zeigen, wie das Rad in diesem Umfeld entstehen könnte und die vielen Innovationen, die es benötigte, um von Rollern nach Rad zu gehen.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Ich glaube, wir haben manchmal in unserer Meinung, dass wir nicht denken, dass sie einen Tag einen sehr absurden Technologien haben, oder dass sie es alles mit einem Kühlschrank machen oder mit einem Sack, um das Ganze herauszufinden. Und dann am nächsten Tag haben sie das Rollen entwickelt.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Aber offensichtlich ist es nicht so einfach, oder mit einem Klick des Fingers haben sie diese Technologie entwickelt. versuchen, den ganzen Prozess des menschlichen Denkens zu verstehen, wie sie diese Endpunkte dieses frühen Wehren von 6000 Jahren erreichen.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Absolut. Das war also dein Ziel und ich habe gesehen, wie du diese Fragen beantworten konntest. Mit deiner Expertise und dem Anliegen zu diesem Thema, was war fast der Startpunkt, um Beweise zu schaffen, die diese Theorie unterstützen könnten, wie die Runde hierher gekommen ist?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Dies ist auch ein guter Bezug darauf, wie die Computerszene und die Archäologie heute Hand in Hand arbeiten können, um Schauspielern neue Erkenntnisse zu machen über wichtige Erfindungen, die vor Tausenden von Jahren hergestellt wurden. Nun, um diese Theorie und die Wissenschaft dahinter abzuschließen, werden wir diese Episode in zwei Teilen verteilen.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
And if you don't mind, and I've read your paper alongside Dick and Lee as well. Lee is the third author in that paper. Yeah, he's the first author.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Ich habe es durchgelesen und ich habe bemerkt, dass es bei der Methodologie und dem, was ihr gemacht habt, viele große, und ich muss sagen, komplizierte Equationen für mich als Joe Blogger, wenn ich das von außen sehe.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Was waren einige der Hauptalgorithmen, die ihr geschaffen habt, die euch dazu geholfen haben, diese Forschung zu erweitern und schließlich zu euren Schlussfolgerungen zu kommen, die wir in ein bisschen Zeit kommen werden?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Die erste Teil ist ein Interview mit Dr. Richard Bullitt, um mehr über sein Werk zu lernen, das die Welt's first wheels studiert, und wie er zu der Abschätzung kam, dass die Carpathians dort waren, wo sie zuerst entwickelt wurden. Danach haben wir ein Interview mit Computation-Ingenieur Dr. Kai James, der diese Forschung mit Richard und Dr. Lee Alacock begleitet hat.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Und das optimale Design, nur um uns einen Ausdruck zu geben, was Richard vorhin gesagt hat, es sind keine tiefen Tunnel mit großen Körnern, die man von dem Wilden Westen oder viel später denken kann. Das sind kleine Tunnel, aber auch rechte Tunnel. Das ist, um Dinge in einer rechten Linie herauszufinden. Also sind das die Bedingungen, die du von 6.000 Jahren her denkst. Genau.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Kai wird sich auf die Wissenschaft dieses neuen Papiers konzentrieren. Er wird erklären, was komputative Technologie wirklich ist und wie er seine Fähigkeiten mit Lee verwendet hat, um Modelle zu kreieren, die Richard's-Theorie unterstützen, dass das Rad mit prehistorischen Minern originiert hat. Es wird ziemlich der Episode sein.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
I mean, it really does. And it's such an interesting piece of research to do because remember Richard saying how you have those clay figurines, which shows kind of that design, almost the end product from that environment and maybe how they were celebrating that technological invention. So you almost say you have an endpoint to know, okay, that's what they reached. My other question then is,
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Wissen wir die wichtigen Schritte der Innovation? Oder hat Ihr Forschungserklärung mehr darüber gemacht, was wir denken, die wichtigen Schritte der Innovation für diese Menschen waren, um letztendlich das Rad zu erreichen? Denn Sie haben dort Ancient Egypt erwähnt, und manchmal sehen Sie Bilder davon, dass sie große Stücke aus Stein oder so bringen, aber mit Rollern.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Und das ist ein Wort, das ich fragen möchte, weil wir denken, es geht von Rollern zum Rad, oder was anderes hat Ihr Forschungserklärung über das ganze Innovation, die Schritte der Innovation, um endlich das Rad zu erreichen?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Richard, es ist ein Vergnügen, dich heute auf dem Podcast zu haben. Tristan, es ist sehr schön, dich kennenzulernen. Was für ein Thema. Die Erfindung der Runde wurde oft als eines der seminalen Momente in der historischen Geschichte gehalten. Und es fühlt sich an, als wäre es etwas, das bis heute noch sehr viel diskutiert wird. Und auch wenn man es zu einem Ort pinpoint.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Let's explore these various steps, Kai, because I do see in your paper that you have a few visual images of almost the stages to creating this early wheel type. So let's explore this.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Also musst du die gespennten Roller nicht mehr nach vorne bringen. Es ist fast wie ein Schlauch, aber ein Schlauch, der rotiert, ist es nicht? Genau.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Ich denke, du hast recht. Wir könnten eine ganze Stunde über all diese Fahrrad-Innovationen sprechen. Aber es war faszinierend. Eine der Hauptvorgaben, die ich genommen habe. Zuerst einmal, wenn man sich denkt, wie sich das Design verändert, um es letztendlich, ich glaube, ja, einfach den Roller in einen Achsel zu schmalen und dann hast du den Rest davon da.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
It was difficult for me to get my head around before talking to you, Kai, about that whole process of going from roller to wheels. But I mean, you've made it sound so much clearer now and it's so interesting to see how that thought process may well have gone. And also your work around this and Lee and Richard about this kind of
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
evolution of the world in that particular environment in the mind some 6 000 years ago i guess it begs that last question doesn't it i guess this is a question that maybe you're not designed to answer with your research but to think you know potentially just how long it took for these people to go from one step to the next it's really hard to know and this is one of the challenges with
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Eine andere Sache, die du da erwähnt hast, die ich so interessant fand, war, dass du erwähnt hast, dass du diese optimalen Bedingungen für die Erzeugung des Rollens brauchst. Und dann glaube ich, dass du verstehen kannst, warum in bestimmten Teilen der Welt das Rollen nicht weiterentwickelt wird oder viel später erhoben wird, weil du Ägypten erwähnt hast und so weiter.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Kai, ich muss fragen, um zu Ende zu kommen. You have just done this research alongside Lee and alongside Richard. This is you delving into archaeology and ancient history and you now can see how amazing it is. But what's your plan next? Do you plan to do more research around early wheels or another part of ancient engineering or technological discoveries? What's next for you and your research?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Es könnte ein bisschen zu modern für uns sein, aber es gibt andere Podcast-Historie, die davon fasziniert werden. Und das... Bow and arrow stuff is certainly in the ancients wheelhouse, so I will keep an eye out for that research when it comes around and we'll have to get you back on then.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
But it just goes for me to say, Kai, this has been fascinating to interview you and Richard before you about this extraordinary new paper that has been published around the origins of the wheel some 6,000 years ago. And it just goes for me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come to the podcast today.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Kai James and before him Dr. Richard Bullitt, talking you through this exciting new research into the origins of the wheel, looking at the archaeology, the theory of it emerging with these Carpathian miners some 6,000 years ago seeking copper.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Und auch diese neue Wissenschaft, die Anwendung der komputationalen Technik, um zu versuchen, die Evolutionsprozesse des Rollens in diesen Geistern zu verstehen und wie das Umfeld richtig war, um diese Innovationen Schritt für Schritt zu machen. Vielen Dank, dass Sie zu diesem Episode von The Ancients gehört haben. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Hat es viel Debatte darüber gegeben, wo und wie das Rad erst entstanden wurde? Sollte man an einem Ort schauen oder an mehreren anderen Orten gleichzeitig, bei den einzelnen Gemeinschaften eine spontane Erweiterung des Rads?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. Now don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits Podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Also Mesopotamien, das war eine Theorie, war es nicht? Aber du hast gesagt, es gibt auch zwei andere. Ist Türkei einer dieser anderen Orte?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Lassen wir uns das jetzt erläutern. Du hast die Carpathien erwähnt, also die österreichische Region. Und was ist diese Kultur, die zentral zu unserer Rede ist und zu deiner Forschung heute, die Borelaz-Kultur? Was ist diese Kultur?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Also, wie du sagst, es ist die Kopfer-Welt und du hast schon viele Jahre von Leuten gehabt, die Kopfer aus der Oberfläche extrahieren. Diese haben sich ausgelöst, also müssen sie tiefer in die Berge minieren, um Kopfer zu extrahieren. Und jetzt ist es die Technologie, die sie verfügbar haben, um dann diese großen Mengen von Mineral, von Stein aus zu bekommen. Sollten wir Minesharps nennen?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Wissen wir, was die Technologie davor war, wie diese Leute davon ausgehen würden, was sie vorher benutzt haben und dann den nächsten Schritt nehmen, um dann einen gewaltigen Transport zu erzeugen, um dieses Koppelmaterial aus einem dieser breiten Späße zu transportieren?
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
Es wird oft als einer dieser pivoten Momente in der Geschichte der Menschheit bezeichnet. Etwas, das von vielen unserer täglichen Leben bis in die heutige Zeit fundamental bleibt. Die Erfindung der Runde. Wann wurde die Runde erst erschaffen? Von wem? Und für welchen Zweck? Dies sind Fragen, die verschiedene Schauspieler seit Jahrzehnten, wenn nicht Jahrhunderten, fasziniert haben.
The Ancients
Origins of the Wheel
So this is archaeology discovered from the culture. Cups, so ceramics, but they have wheels on them.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
It was one of several thriving towns along the Bay of Naples that fell victim to this infamous eruption that fateful day. Pompeii has a sister site, similarly destroyed in Vesuvius' eruption, a flourishing fishing town named after the mythical hero Hercules, Herculaneum. It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
I could ask so many different questions, but before we delve into various parts of the archaeology, you said Greek sculpture. So I think then of when I was recently, I went to Pestum in South Italy, and there's that great Greek influence, ancient Greek influence over Southern Italy. Does that also stem to Herculaneum's origins? Is it not originally a Roman town?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
I think you're right. And I don't think many people actually realise, I don't think even I realised, first of all, that, of course, Herculaneum comes from Hercules. I don't think many people actually made that connection before it's spelled out to them.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
For anyone wanting to visit Roman remains in the Bay of Naples, Herculaneum is a must-see site. It's much smaller than Pompeii, so you can do it in a day, walking from the ancient harbourfront to the heart of the town, seeing awesome surviving art and architecture along the way.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
And I guess that also highlights one of the most appealing things of percolating the people living there, wasn't it? It was the fertile soils, the agriculture, but also the fruits of the sea in regards to seafood and everything that you've got in the Bay of Naples. So strategic, yes, with rivers, but also economically, it's a very rich place. It's a nice place to live.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
You can enter rich seafront houses that boasted the best views in ancient Herculaneum, multi-storey flats, fast food stalls, bathhouses and more. And of course, what has really caught people's attention lately with Herculaneum are these scrolls. These pieces of parchment discovered in a villa just outside the town that had been burnt to a crisp during the eruption.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
I also find it interesting with Herculaneum because I think of all of the ancient towns that there would have been in Roman Italy, and if it's smaller than Pompeii, actually to have a good deal smaller, to actually have mentions of it surviving in literature, like you mentioned the Social War, But do we amplify its importance today because it survived?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Well, an interesting comparison, although nowhere near as rich and elaborate as Herculaneum would be, I believe. Colchester, when the Romans make it a colony, when Boudicca sacks it, the estimate there is about 2,000 to 4,000 people live there.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
So it's funny to think actually the same number roughly in Herculaneum, although as you say, Herculaneum is much more grand than this newly created Roman colony that's about to be destroyed by Boudicca. But interesting nonetheless to hear.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Absolutely. Well, let's delve into this archaeology now. We've covered the discovery and the continued thought and the origins of it. But what has been excavated so far, do we have all the hallmarks of a standard Roman town, almost the blueprint of a Roman town that you can see again and again across the empire?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
However, thanks to the use of modern technology, thanks to AI, scientists are starting to decipher them, unravelling the clues, the secret texts, the literature that lies within. Herculaneum is a really exciting site. And to delve into its story, I was delighted to interview one of the best people for the job, Andrew Wallace Hadrill, Professor Emeritus at the University of Cambridge.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
And also, because you mentioned the word basilica there, so we shouldn't be thinking of a church there. We should be thinking of the law courts. It's a key building, though. It's probably not a basilica, but we've used that term. That would have been another building surrounding the forum.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Andrew has worked on Herculaneum and Pompeii for decades. His knowledge of the site is on another level. And it was such a privilege to head up to Cambridge to interview him in person about Herculaneum and why this site is so important and so special. Enjoy. Enjoy. Andrew, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
It's so tempting to talk about those kind of big buildings, isn't it, that we often associate with Roman towns, whether it's the Basilica, or the baths, or the markets, that forum area. But I know with Herculaneum, something that makes it really special was something that you highlighted earlier, which is insights into the houses of everyday people. And can you talk a bit more about this?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
And first off, this fact that something we need to get our heads around is that they had flats. They had flats and they had multi-storey flats as well. That's such an amazing insight into people who are normally lost from the archaeological record.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
We have covered on this podcast several times before the story of Pompeii and various parts of its archaeological story too. Herculaneum, I don't want to say that it's like the hidden gem, isn't it? Because people do know Herculaneum is there, and sometimes they try to rival between the two, and yet they both live together. You have two extraordinary Roman towns surviving right next to each other.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
But it's interesting, as you say, we shouldn't then just be thinking almost the dichotomy of the rich in their villas and the poor just all in their very, very small ones. It seems like, as you say, this almost middle class is probably too modern a term to say, but the shopkeepers and the shop owners have kind of a modest way of life.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
As you say, they can save up and spend on some things and show off to their friends, look at this great thing we got in our small garden, but we still got a beautiful artistic design and You can relate to it in modern day, can't you? You've got to look after your money, but you want to show off something so you can save up and buy something really impressive to show off your friends.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
They're the people who, yes, maybe it's the rich who are owning some of the shops, but these are the people who are the shopkeepers. They're doing all those things on these roads, whether it's the bakery or the fast food place. I'm not going to say the word Thermopolium. Thermopolium. too late. Well, I've now said it now, haven't I?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
But those shops that you see and those counters that you see again and again in Herculaneum Pompeii, shall we imagine it's these people, they are the ones who keep, in a weird kind of way, I mean, they are the people who keep Herculaneum running.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Well, let us now focus on the richest in Herculaneum, because I feel we need to do that now. We talked about Villa de Papaya, we're going to get to that. But you do sometimes get that sense in Herculaneum with the villas. Some people always see it's almost a resort on the seafront for quite a lot. So yes, you have the everyday people. Yes, you have the slaves.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
But there is still quite a strong contingent of the elite owning property in Herculaneum and reflecting it in how elaborate those buildings, those villas are. Very much so.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
And this is the part, isn't it? It's not almost like another Pompeii Herculaneum. It has different types of archaeology that's been unearthed that is revealing even more about how these people lived and ultimately how they died as well.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Balbus, you cunning, cunning man. That is clever. Yeah, very clever. And of course, one of them must be Balbus's own house. Well, must have, surely. Yeah, he must want one of those for his own, shouldn't he? And those villas just go on and on. The House of the Stags is in that main area, and it's just above the harbour area, so kind of where they're doing all the fishing.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Everyday people are below you, bringing all the fish in. And right above, almost up high, which I guess is a symbol in its own right, you have an elite family maybe sitting in their garden. And basically, they can hear that, but they can't see it because they can see straight out to the beautiful view beyond.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
I wish I could ask about, we could focus in on so many things, but we should focus on the House of the Papyri, shouldn't we?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
And it's a villa because that is actually outside the walls, isn't it? There we go.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
I'm sorry. They're the copies they received from the publisher, isn't it? They want to share with friends, but they haven't been able to give them all away. And Epicureanism, that's a particular type of philosophy from the Hellenistic period, isn't it? I don't want to go into too many details now, but it's a strand of philosophy that has some popularity with particular Roman...
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Because, we'll get back to the library very quickly in a second, but whoever owned it, they really liked their portraits, didn't they? There's that room in the Archaeological Museum at Naples, and I remember going there recently, and you've got marble busts, you've got the bronze busts, there's one with a, you can still get the eyes in it, one that I think used to be attributed to
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Scipio I believe and now there's a bit more debate around them but you see one of my favourites there there's allegedly Pyrrhus of Epirus you see philosophers like Archytas who's an ancient Greek one from Taranto in southern Italy so he likes his busts as well the family they like their busts and then as you say they've got the library and these scrolls that have fascinated people very recently haven't they because they survived the eruption but they were carbonised and they're having to be unravelled is that the gist of the story?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Can you imagine if they're all the same book, the same Epicurean text, and this guy just really enjoyed his own stuff and just bought 800 versions of it? I mean, it would sap the people who were trying to decipher them.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Let's wait and see those heroes that are slowly deciphering it with AI and stuff like that. It's really extraordinary stuff. Andrew, I wish I could talk so much more about so many different things. I feel then, to kind of wrap it up, we mentioned the eruption early on, but the people themselves, I mean, I haven't asked about diet, I wish I could, but that's another thing.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Learning more about the people, not just how they lived, but I guess also who were caught up in the eruption. Do we know much about how they died? I mean, there are skeletons that survived, aren't there?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
And so why does Herculaneum have this different fate to Pompeii when the eruption of Mount Vesuvius does happen in 79 AD? Is it to do with its location?
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Well, Andrew, that's a lovely way to finish it. And I think it emphasizes, doesn't it, as you've highlighted straight from the beginning, how You've dedicated most of your academic life to Herculaneum and Pompeii and the stories of these people and learning more about them. But how much more there is still to learn. How exciting a field it is. You can go to Herculaneum today.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
You can learn about it from this podcast episode. But lo and behold, in five years' time, there'll be so much more information that people will have gathered. It's really exciting.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Absolutely. And Andrew, you mentioned your book there. So last but certainly not least, your book on Herculaneum, this is called. herculaneum past and future thank you for bringing me up to the faculty of classical archaeology the classical archaeology museum at cambridge and it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today you're more than welcome you
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Well, there you go. There was Professor Andrew Wallace Hadrold giving you this awesome introduction into Herculaneum and why research around this ancient Roman town over the next few years promises to be very, very exciting indeed. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. We will put a poll at the bottom of this episode asking which lost city of ancient history you would like us to cover next.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan. That is enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Well, it's nice to touch on the eruption now, and I think we'll be returning to what happens to the people of Herculaneum a bit later because their skeletons aren't there that we can talk about in a bit. I'd like to actually first talk about the rediscovery of Herculaneum because with Pompeii, I think people get the sense that several centuries ago that they start unearthing Pompeii.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
79 AD. A great column of volcanic ash and rocks spews from the top of Mount Vesuvius, tens of kilometres into the sky, before covering the land below in a veil of darkness. One of the most catastrophic natural events of ancient history has just begun.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Carthage, you know, the Roman Carthage, very different to Pune. They left it a bit before they rebuilt it.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
It's interesting, isn't it? It almost feels like it's been a bit more romanticised, the idea of the lost city of Pompeii or the lost town of Herculaneum. And isn't there the story of a farmer digging a well and then bits of marbled carmarth? Exactly. So you get those stories, but actually, as you say, people have known about it and they've been digging it for much longer.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Over the next couple of days, this volcano would bring death and destruction to the surrounding lands, its most famous victim, the Roman town of Pompeii.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Because you can still get that sense today when you go to the Herculaneum, isn't it? You go to the harbour area and you see that massive wall of volcanic rock, which is something like 20 metres high, isn't it? That's how much they did.
The Ancients
Herculaneum
Today, Pompeii's remains are world famous, a place where you can walk in the footsteps of Romans down cobbled streets, be awestruck by lewd graffiti written on walls 2,000 years ago, enter the amphitheatre where gladiators fought for the entertainment of the crowds. It is quite the experience. But Pompeii was not the only settlement swallowed up by Vesuvius.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Composite Celtic superhero. Five key figures from ancient Britain. Miles, let's delve into these five figures now. I want you to go wild with the detail of each of these people. Let's start with the first one. This is someone who I actually think is particularly interesting, particularly because he seems to be very much an influence on Clive Owen for the King Arthur of that in the 2000s.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
As the brilliant Dr. Myles Russell from Bournemouth University explained to me in this interview that I did with him back in early 2021, almost four years ago. Myles has been a regular on the Ancients and on the History Hit YouTube channel since then. We filmed with him about the great Iron Age British hillfort Maiden Castle, and about the mysterious Roman 9th Legion, Legio IX Hispana.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
He is a lovely man and a brilliant speaker, talking Romans, Iron Age Britons and King Arthur. You name it, he knows it. What not to love? Enjoy! MUSIC The question of who was the real King Arthur, it's kind of like what happened to the Ninth Legion. It's one of those great mystery questions of history.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Well, you kind of read my mind what the next question would be, which would be like, what elements of Ambrosius Aurelianus' story does Geoffrey adopt, mould into the character of Arthur? But is it really the battle narrative?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Well, there you go. I never clicked that link between Ambrosius Aurelianus and Amesbury. And Miles, if we then move on, it sounds like Ambrosius, he is a significant core of the character of Arthur in Geoffrey's Monmouth. But moving on to the next figure, he also seems very, very significant. Character number two, Magnus Maximus.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Miles, it's so interesting how the most significant person for creating this Celtic superhero is this rather infamous Roman general.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Fair enough. Well, from Magnus Maximus, let's move on to another person who is definitely not modest in the slightest. Figure number three, Constantine the Great.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
It's such a difficult question, but I'm going to ask it quickly because you mentioned how Constantine is such a significant figure when we imagine about the world Geoffrey's living in, the medieval period, when looking back at ancient Rome.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Do you think when Geoffrey's writing this and he knows Constantine's links to Britain and to York and how he's such a significant figure that perhaps he thinks that when I'm creating this Celtic superhero, I must get elements of this significant figure's history in the story, in the creation of Arthur?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Absolutely world renowned. And you are an archaeologist of ancient history. And although we sometimes think of Arthur as this medieval figure, he has these incredible links, shall we say, when you look at the research to ancient Britain.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Ah, there you go. Always thinking about the Saxons as well in that whole narrative. Very, very interesting indeed. Now, figure number four, we're going further back to late Iron Age Britain and Miles, the figure of Cassivellaunus.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
That is super interesting. Does he talk about Brittany at all then in these links?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Absolutely. It's so, so interesting, Myles, right there. So we're going to move on to the last and final figure, a figure who I'd never even heard of before this. Figure number five.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Super interesting questions, Arthur, right at the epicentre. So Miles, to really start off this chat, the background, we are talking about the book at the heart of your research on this topic. It's not an ancient book, but this literary source, it's key to our discussion today. What is this book?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
There's one part of that last figure, Arviragus, that I would like to specifically ask about, and that's to do with an island off the north coast of Britain, Orkney. Because we do hear in one source, I believe, with Claudius accepting the surrenders of British chiefs, that there is one chief who comes from Orkney. Could this all be linked? I mean, what is the story here?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
So actually, it's kind of similar to saying like a Sasanian ruler conquered as far as the Caspian Gates or the Romans conquered as far as the Pillars of Hercules.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Absolutely. Gotcha. Now, you've mentioned them in passing as we've chatted, these percentages. So I've got to go to the maths now, Miles. To sum it all up, these five figures, what's the percentages of each of them in the story, the elements of the Arthur story?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
I mean, if the Arthur tale is made up of all of these stories from earlier in British history... We've been chatting through this and you did mention her name earlier, Boudicca.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Is it surprising or do you think it's not that surprising that actually of all the figures, even though Boudicca is perhaps the most well-known figure from ancient Britain today, that he didn't take any of Boudicca's story for the tale of King Arthur?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Well, there you go. Now, Miles, this has been an incredible chat talking about what we know about Arthur, particularly from Geoffrey Monmouth. And looking back at ancient Britain, I must ask before we go, Tristan and Isolde, are there any ancient links to this tale which could be similar to Arthur that you can think of?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Absolutely. And absolutely incredible sites down in the Southwest. Miles, this has been an incredible chat. Your book on this topic is called?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Fantastic. Miles, it's always great to see you. So thanks so much for coming on the podcast.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Miles Russell talking through the figures, the real life historical figures that helped shape the legendary King of the Britons, King Arthur. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
You can also follow me on social media. I'm on both Instagram and TikTok. Follow me at Ancients Tristan where I do even more ancient history stuff. Don't forget you can also listen to The Ancients and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free, and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. Now that's enough from me.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Next episode, we're back with some new recordings kicking off 2025 in style, and I can't wait to see you then.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Miles, that is super interesting. And just before we go on to Arthur, that mentioning of this oral tradition, as it were, so we say pre-Saxon, is it looking at the ancient Celtic history, as it were, in this oral tradition? Because you see so many parallels. I was immediately thinking of perhaps the Homer, the Odyssey, the Iliad, that oral tradition.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
But you could also then look at the Polynesians and their oral tradition before the Europeans and the interactions there. And it seems like it's quite similar here, how he is now writing down hundreds and hundreds of years later, Geoffrey of Monmouth, this tradition that may well have been passed down through many of the Celtic speaking peoples and said for generations.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Absolutely. Don't you worry, Miles. We'll be going back to Alexander the Great very soon, I'm sure. But let's focus on Arthur. So Arthur in Geoffrey's book, how significant a figure is he?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
The ultimate warrior portrayal. So is he very much portrayed in this book, Miles, as a warlord?
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and Happy New Year. 2025 is here, and for The Ancients, well, we have some huge treats for you over the next few weeks as we kick off January in style. Watch this space. Now, it is still the holiday season and the Ancients team are just wrapping up their Christmas break.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Miles, the parallels are so striking. We're going back to Alexander now because of that whole portrayal. With the Alexander historians, first of all, like the original sources, you mentioned how Arthur is portrayed as this sometimes psychopathic warlord. Well, I think Alexander is portrayed very similarly at times.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
This killing of hundreds of thousands of people, particularly in the Indus River Valley. But it's only later on when you get the romance added with the Alexander romance stories where you see him going to mythical lands, almost what they thought mythical lands like in Africa or visiting Jerusalem, etc., etc. And those are added later. So it's so interesting.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
You see these striking parallels between two worlds. of the most well-known warlords of history, who have become two of the most well-known warlords in history, have these striking parallels in how their story in the literature develops over time to become, shall we say, more popular among audiences.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
So today we're bringing back to the fore another of my favourite episodes from the back catalogue. And I had a lot of fun choosing this particular episode because it's all about King Arthur and the real life ancient figures who inspired this legendary King of the Britons. because there was more than one.
The Ancients
Who Was the Real King Arthur?
Now, let's go back to Arthur then. Thank you for that tangent. That was very much appreciated. So, I mean, the stories of King Arthur in Geoffrey of Monmouth, many of these stories that are given to Arthur, Miles, they happen to other individuals before him. Yeah.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
So Newgrange, of all of these monuments in Brunnerboyne, and I'm sure we'll probably talk about some of the later ones in time too, I've got in my notes that there are some 40 still visible. Absolutely. More than 100 originally monuments on this area. The people themselves, Marish, who built Newgrange, do we have any idea who these people were?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
It is a fascinating structure situated at the heart of an equally fascinating landscape of the utmost prehistoric importance. And it's also the subject of a brand new documentary presented by myself that has just dropped on History Hit. It's called Prehistoric Ireland, Secrets of the Stone Age. So do check that out if you want after listening to this episode.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Absolutely does, and it's also very interesting. First of all, you hinted about that DNA analysis, which we will return to later on, especially with these interesting links to Irish mythology too. But does it then seem to be that early on in the story of Brunaboynia and Newgrange, when it's initially built –
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Do we think that these early farmers, they view this area, Marish, primarily, if not centrally, as a place for the dead, as a cemetery? I know as time goes on, it gets more complicated than that. But if they're just building these great tombs, do they think, first of all, that that landscape is primarily an area, what they would see as a cemetery, a very elaborate cemetery almost?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Our guest for this episode is Dr. Marish O'Sullivan, Emeritus Professor of Archaeology at University College Dublin. Marish is an expert on the many Stone Age monuments of Ireland, including Newgrange. He also features in our new documentary on the subject, so it felt right to have him on as our expert for this accompanying Ancients episode.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
We're about to explore that whole building process of Newgrange and other places like Nowtham, what archaeologists believe was the likely way that they built these monuments. First off, Marish, though, I must ask, do we know how long it would have taken for them back in the Stone Age, roughly, to build something like Newgrange?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Because I remember going to Orkney and learning about places like Mace Howe and also people saying that the amount of labour needed, the amount of time needed... the whole building of the tomb itself might have been just as important as the burial because it's important to their society and it's such a huge event, a huge task.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
You can ferry them along the river, but then you've got to get to the top of that massive ridge.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
The story of Newgrange is one of stones and spirituality, of megaliths and mythology, of river travel and rock art. So let's get into it. Murrish, it is great to have you on the podcast. It's good to see you again. Thank you very much, Tristan.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Well, let's do one particular example of this, of a particular stone that they used a lot of and kind of epitomises that journey from source to Brunabogna and, let's say, with the building of Newgrange. You probably know what I'm going to ask, Marish, which is the Cloughead Cliffs. Yes, yes. Marish, what are these cliffs and how do they relate to Newgrange and the building of Newgrange?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
The kerbs, as you define there, so think of like a kerb. They surround the perimeter of Newgrange, don't they?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
So that makes sense. So they kind of plot out the position where the central chamber will be, as you say, to align with the Solstice and we'll get more to that. Then the whole perimeter, it's almost kind of like Stone Age surveyors kind of thing, isn't it? You're planning it all out. And then they go and get the stones from places like Glotherhead. And do we know much about that process?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Because to me, I love logistic stuff, whether it's military or or building, or whatever from ancient history. Do we get any sense of that whole logistical process of the ferrying of those great stones from a place like the Cloughhead Cliffs and then back to Newgrange?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Now, not only, in my opinion, are you the unofficial winner of the smoothest Irish accents that I've ever heard, but you are also an expert on Newgrange. And surely this is one of the, if not the most famous prehistoric site in Ireland?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
And also to extract the rocks. I mean, there's no metals at this time, so is it just hammering the rock with an even bigger rock kind of thing, hammerstones again and again and again for a long time?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Let's get back towards the monument. Let's say they have been able to bring some of these kerbstones back. I might also have to ask the question, do we think potentially when they're starting to arrange some of these stones, we'll get back to the kerbstones in a moment, but let's say stones for the creating of the chamber itself or the roof.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Could we imagine the equivalent of Stone Age scaffolding or ramps or stuff like that being used to try and help them?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
And the corbeling technique is absolutely remarkable. Yeah.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
So maybe for some 5,000 years or so before O'Kelly and his excavations earlier in the century, maybe you rarely, if ever, had water seeping into that central chamber. That's quite a fact in itself. Exactly, yes. Oh, wow. Okay, that's extraordinary.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
We need to move on. You mentioned a bit about the interior there. So just to refresh, it's about a 19 metre long corridor, isn't it? With these big slabs of stone either side, these orthostats. And then you emerge into this central area with three recesses in the central area where we believe the remains of the people were placed?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
And in regards to that, I mean, you mentioned names there like Nouth straight away. So shall we answer the big question straight away? I mean, Marvish, what exactly is Newgrange? We can talk about Nouth as well. What exactly are these prehistoric monuments that we know the names of so well?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Well, talking about that kind of mystery element to it, we've still got a couple of things to cover with the whole kind of architecture of Newgrange and that time period. And one of the things, it kind of goes to three again with certain cases, isn't it? That it's not just a plain interior chamber and the same with some of the curbstones as well, because you also find rock art.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
And Marish, what types of rock art are we talking about?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
It is. And almost as a teaser, you and I, in our upcoming documentary on Prehistoric Ireland, part of that, we explore that rock art outside Nouth. And I think Nouth is the richest concentration of megalithic rock art in Europe. It's an astonishing tomb. And there is still some on Newgrange as well.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
If I bring you back to Newgrange, you mentioned the entrance stone there, which for our listeners, that was perhaps...
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
the best of the kerbstones in the fact that it's right outside the main entrance to Newgrange and it is covered in spirals and beautiful rock art including a particular type which I'm sure is perhaps well the best known isn't it because of its later legacy this idea of the tripled spiral which seems to become dare I say it has in later history become associated with the word Celtic and kind of a Celtic symbol even though it's much older than that the famous triple spiral motif
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
There's one part of the construction of Newgrange that I'm sure many people listening to this who have visited Newgrange will be maybe shouting into their podcast, into their audio app, say, what about this? What about this part? And so I must ask about this part as well briefly. And it is interesting, which is that massive quartz wall, Marisch Wall.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Around the outside, that kind of white wall of Newgrange, that is one of the most eye-catching parts of photos and images of Newgrange today. How accurate do we think that is? Do we think that was part of the original build?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
And that area, you mentioned the Boyne there, so we'll get to the River Boyne in a moment. But you mentioned, first of all, the word megalith. Now, what do we mean by the word megalith? I'm going back to my ancient Greek, and I think that's megaslithos. It's got a great stone idea, isn't it?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
I'm glad that we mentioned it because it would be wrong of us not to. And thank you for highlighting that. Maybe quartz like with the kerbstones, that particular stone had a real significance for these people. This feels slightly unfair because I feel the legacy of Newgrange remains. is deserving of a full podcast episode in its own right, Marish.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
But as time goes on, the Stone Age goes on, then you get the Bronze Age, and the whole area in this bend in the bonds, the Brunabogna, comes this sacred landscape full of timber circles and henges and people venturing there from far and wide. Marish, give us an insight into that legacy of Newgrange and what follows. I've got even in my notes here, some Roman coins were found there too.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
It's still interesting, and actually it leads me into a fun little statement. Before we completely wrap this up, there is sometimes that common phrase and fact said that the famous Cleopatra is living closer to us than the time of when the Great Pyramid of Giza was built.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Well, those coins, those Roman coins were left at Newgrange closer to us today than when Newgrange was originally built, which I think is a nice statement to kind of testament to that legacy part of it as well. I mean, Marish, I could ask you about so much more. Sadly, we don't have time to cover, explore a bit more that DNA link and mythology. But I will ask you,
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Personally, what excites you the most about Newgrange? For a site that's 5,000 years old, it still seems to be one shrouded in mystery that more and more evidence is coming to light.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Well, you know, this is great in its own right because it means we could do follow-up episodes on prehistoric Ireland and Knockrow, like a place where you've done your excavations as well in the future too, Marish. And of course, Nouth and Douth, two other great tombs that we mentioned in passing, but obviously the focus was on Newgrange.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Marish, this has been an hour filled with so much information about Newgrange, Brunaboynia and Neolithic Ireland. It's been such a pleasure. Great to see you again. Thank you very much. featuring together for this newly released history hit documentary on prehistoric Ireland. And it just goes to me to say, Marish, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Marisch O'Sullivan talking all things Newgrange, this wonder of Stone Age Ireland. Thank you for listening.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
If you'd like more information about Newgrange or the landscape it's within, the Brunabogna, then do also check out our new documentary on history hit, presented by myself, also featuring Marisch, called Prehistoric Ireland, Secrets of the Stone Age, that focuses on Brunabogna and great monuments like Newgrange. Thank you once again for listening to this episode of The Ancients.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
These passage tombs and these great stones that are being built in the Boyne Valley some 5,000 years ago, Marish, is it part of a much wider tradition? When talking about this new Stone Age world, this Neolithic world, how far and wide should we be thinking that you can see a passage tomb like Newgrange?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
But how far across the world should we also be thinking about passage tombs, similar style passage tombs at that time?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
It always seems like Mace Howe and Newgrange, and probably Nouth as well, they always seem to share that trophy of being the greatest Stone Age tomb surviving, isn't it? Whenever I put something up on social media or wherever about these tombs, they always say, oh, what about Newgrange? Or what about Mace Howe? They always seem to share that title. Yeah.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Yes, we had a look at that mace head, I think. We've created Bernard Gil-Hooey in the National Museum of Ireland. It's such an extraordinary artefact, isn't it? And do feel free to bring in Nouth once in a while during our chat because his story is so intertwined with Newgrange, especially when we get to topics like rock art.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
I want to bring in now, well, actually, I guess another big name to throw into this conversation straight away to help us all with the timeframe and just how old Newgrange is. If it was built... About 3,200 BC, so more than 5,000 years ago. Marish, this is a monument that's older than both Stonehenge and the Great Pyramid of Giza.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
It always feels important to mention those two too, just to get the sense of just how old it is.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Deep in the verdant countryside, overlooking a sacred river, stands Ireland's most famous prehistoric monument. An enormous tomb made of stone and earth, built more than 5,000 years ago. This stunning tomb lies at the heart of a special landscape known as Bruna Bòinne, the postal monument in a valley of Stone Age marvels. Its name is Newgrange. It's the Ancients on History Hit.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
Well, okay, but that's fair enough. We're never going to shy away from giving credit to the amazing achievements of Stonehenge. But we'll also focus on the amazing achievements of Newgrange and those people who built it. Let's talk a bit about the wider landscape of Newgrange. You've mentioned it is situated in the Boyne River Valley.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
But Moorish, I've got in my notes, obviously, the name Brunaboyne. So give us a sense of the wider landscape that Newgrange is built within and why that landscape is really important when discussing its story.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
So it's interesting to imagine in the Stone Age world, 5,000 years ago, the River Boyne, as you mentioned, good agricultural land there, fishing, boats, people coming up and down that river. When they're going along that bend in the Boyne, if those three... big tombs, Newgrange, Nouth and Douth are on those highest points of the ridges. I mean, it almost feels like they're Stone Age billboards.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring this wonder of the Stone Age world that is Newgrange. There is still lots of mystery surrounding this massive passage tomb that has endured for five millennia. But thanks to the tireless work of archaeologists over the past decades, well, many of Newgrange's astonishing secrets have started to be revealed.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Ireland: Newgrange
They can be seen by people going up and down that, if I keep on that kind of analogy, that motorway of the Stone Age, which was the River Boyne.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
That's not the context for, as you say, that originally they are deposited by the Knox in 2,000 years ago.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
And what has archaeology so far revealed about this mysterious Iron Age culture? Well, joining me to explain all is Dr Kevin MacDonald, a professor of African archaeology at University College London. Kevin dialed in to join us for this chat, and I'm really grateful for Kevin's time to talk all the things the Nok culture.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
But if you mentioned that they are hollow, surely that makes them even more brittle. Surely it makes them much more easy to break.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Fair enough. Before we explore what they actually depict, just so that we can get a really clear idea of their size, because you've also, we've used words like statuette too. I mean, Kevin, should we not be imagining very, very big statues? Were we thinking 30 centimetres high roughly, or what should we be imagining?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
And just so we know, Kevin, I mean, how far away is the Niger River to the Nok that we're talking about?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
It's just asking potentially, because I know it's large areas, but potentially is it trade and contact between them? So passing of pottery ideas there and back. So yes, although the ones in the Niger River are bigger, could there have been contact and influence between the two?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Rarely does the Nok get the attention it deserves, so enjoy as we delve into its mysterious story. Kevin, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. Glad to be here. Let's talk about the Nok culture, and it's about time we explored more of these extraordinary ancient African civilisations or cultures.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
But with the Nok, Kevin, is this a culture that we know of exclusively from archaeology?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
That's interesting, isn't it? I hadn't thought of ivory at all when thinking about artefacts. Also, you made an interesting point, if we go back to the statues, of how sometimes it sounds like it's not just the statues. They have decorations on them too.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Do we have many ivory artefacts as decoration from within the knot culture, or is this just a theory based on what we know about elephants in antiquity?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Well, it was good to talk about trade as well, because you preempted a part of the chat, which was the wider world that they lived in. So thank you for highlighting that. If we go back to the statues, the figurines, you've highlighted how many of them fragmented, very complex designs too. But if we actually focus on the designs, what do they show? What things do these terracottas show?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
When are we talking about and where are we talking about with the Nook?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
And how big a period of time in ancient history are we talking about with the knock?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
It's almost, I'm just trying to think of a parallel. I think, isn't it an ancient Egyptian culture or ancient Kushite culture where sometimes they'll depict certain animals or a hieroglyph with a tomb, but usually they'll depict if it's a ferocious animal like a crocodile or something like that with some sort of
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
injury or so not fully hold so they're not as dangerous as they would have otherwise been with that fear that i think is with the hieroglyphs as well that you know they have that kind of magical element that they could come out of the of the wall and actually become real things it feels almost a bit of a similar thing that you there's that worry about inanimate objects or things that the humans have made becoming real you know in the afterlife and trying to prevent that from happening
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
It also feels like maybe this is one that we can't answer yet, but I must, just before we go on to metals, is given that there are so many of these terracottas created, and given that these people are living in small villages, do we think it's possible that almost part of their society was to learn to create these objects, or would there have been a specialised person who would have been involved in getting the clay, fire-hardening the clay, then making the terracotta?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
or then fire-hardening it, or there were specific people who knew the craft, or I guess professionals, or that everyone had to learn how to make these.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
But it's so interesting, nonetheless, and especially for such a mysterious culture. I mean, Kevin, I could ask so much more about that. But as we're nearing the end, we've got to also talk about iron, because talk to me a bit about their expertise, their proficience with iron and how they become blacksmiths, because this also seems a really important part of the Knox story.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
And you mentioned there archaeological work on the Nock. I mean, how long has archaeological work been going on? I mean, how long has it been since the Nock have been rediscovered?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Yes. Do we know what happens to the Nock culture? They seem to last for quite a long time. Do we know what follows them almost?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Do we know by now, let's say almost 100 years later, if that was the earliest site that became NOC associated with this archaeological entity, do we have quite a number of sites today in that area of Nigeria that seems to be linked together with similar sorts of artefacts? Do we have a wider range of archaeological sites today?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Well, Kevin, I mean, this has been absolutely fantastic. You have to come back on in the future to talk more about this area of the world and its extraordinary prehistory and thousands of years ago and the legacy it has on more recent cultures as well. We've covered quite a lot of ground, but we've got to wrap it up there.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
And it just goes to me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Very welcome. It's been a pleasure. Well, there you go. There was Professor Kevin MacDonald introducing you to the extraordinary yet very mysterious Nok culture of ancient Nigeria. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Now, don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at Ancients Tristan. That's enough from me, and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
You mentioned central Nigeria, but do we have much idea about what the landscape would have looked like in which they had their settlements more than 2,000 years ago, or roughly 2,000 years ago?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Well, Kevin, you can never get too far ahead of yourself on the ancients, so don't you worry. In that case, we'll explore the wider story of how they lived first, and then we'll delve into almost the poster piece of the Nock, which are their figurines. If they're farming millet, do we know much about their society, how they lived in these villages? Should we be imagining small farming communities?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
So probably livestock, certainly agriculture. One more question on the settlements themselves, Kevin. It sounds like, though, from the area of the world that the archaeology is being done, do you therefore have quite a lot of the organic material? It doesn't survive. The houses that they were probably living in in these villages, it's very difficult to find the remains of those.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're covering another of those mysterious, too often overlooked ancient civilizations. A people who lived in ancient Nigeria, known today solely through archaeology, symbolized by extraordinary terracotta figurines. The Nok culture.
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
When you mentioned in passing the clay, Kevin, and was clay the greatest non-metallic material that they had or the material that they had that they were able to create this extraordinary, very sophisticated artwork from?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
Search Nok culture in your browser today and straight away images of these striking statuettes appear. They are some of the most eye-catching examples of ancient art so far found anywhere in Africa, depicting all sorts of subjects. And unsurprisingly, they will feature heavily in today's conversation. So who were the Nok? Whereabouts in Africa did they live?
The Ancients
Prehistoric Nigeria: The Nok
What do we think was the process then? Okay, they've got their clay sources. They're going to make these figurines, these remarkable statuettes. Do we know much about the whole process of how they made these quite complex artworks?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Untertitelung des ZDF für funk, 2017 Now, this episode was within the first 20 that the Ancients ever released back in mid-2020, more than four years ago. It is a real golden oldie and I've always had a soft spot for this interview. One, because when it was released, it gave the Ancients one of the first ever notable spikes in listens.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Ja. Du sprichst von Diocletian vorhin. Und natürlich ist eine der Dinge, die Diocletian berühmt ist, und die am meisten berühmt ist, seine brutale Versuchung der Christen. Haben wir irgendeine Idee, ob Konstantin sich mit der christlichen Kirche während dieser ersten Jahre seines Königreiches verliebt hat?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Das ist absolut faszinierend. Sol Invictus, dieser östliche Gott, hat eine prinzipielle Bedeutung, eine primäre Bedeutung an Konstantin. Von den Zeiten, als er in Britannien war, von den Zeiten, als er in Nordwesteuropa war, bis er in Rom war und dann zurück in, naja, was dann Konstantinopel sein wird.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Lassen wir uns über Konstantins Aufstieg in Rom und einen der berühmtesten Episoden in der christlichen Geschichte sprechen. Wie ist Konstantins Beziehung zu Maxentius? Warum kommt er in den Krieg?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
We were only talking hundreds, if that, back then, but that was big for me at the time. And two, because this episode covers such an interesting period in Roman history. It's the story of how the famous Roman Emperor, Constantine I, also known as Constantine the Great, rose to power.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
His early years, his proclamation as Emperor at York in Britain, the rivals he defeated, the well-known victory he gained at the Milvian Bridge, his careful balancing of Christianity and the traditional Roman gods, his terrible parenting and much more. Jetzt, Konstantin der Große, ein Mann, der religiöse Bedeutung manchmal übersteigt, seine anderen außergewöhnlichen Erfolge.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Der 28. Oktober, wie du gesagt hast, klingt wie ein sehr auspiciouser Tag für Maxentius. Wie du sagst, wenn es der gleiche Tag ist, als er Kronempere war.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Also in dieser Waffe ist eines der berühmtesten Dinge die Kairo-Symbolen. Was ist die Wahrheit, die bei den Kairo-Symbolen auf den Schildern gedreht wird?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Also könnte es nicht für christliche Regionen gemacht haben, es könnte für Glück, für gute Glück in der Beteiligung gemacht haben.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Fascinating. As you were saying earlier with solemn victors and the Christian God, as you say, this ambiguity, this ability to appeal to both sides of a population, as it were.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Wenn wir über die Heilung der Dividenden und die Einheit zusammenbringen, wie, nach dem Verletzten von Maxentius, geht Konstantin um, seine Kontrolle über den Westen zu konsolidieren?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
So maybe if this is the wrong one, but is it kind of keeping your enemies close?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Und ist es hilfreich, diese Linie unter dem, was vorher geschehen ist, ist es auch hilfreich, wenn das Regime von vier Imperaten, wie es war, zu zwei verändert wird?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
That's too much maths for me, I think. But, I mean, that's remarkable. It's sounding like you don't really want to be a family member of Constantine. It's not going to save you if you're another powerful figure in the Empire.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Ich weiß, dass du in deinem Werk darüber gesprochen hast, wie Konstantin die Schwierigkeiten seiner Gegner verursacht. Und welche Schwierigkeiten targetiert Konstantin in Licinius?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
And after this first clash of Licinius, what happens afterwards? Is there further conflict between the two?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Es ist erstaunlich, dass das Homecoming zu Nicomedia, das du vorhin erwähnt hast, als er an Diocletians Gericht war, es ist, als ob er so viel von Diocletian lernt, der Mann, der die Tetrarchie kreiert, diese Vier-Mann-Regel, um letztendlich die Tetrarchie zu zerstören.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Du hast Eusebius gerade erwähnt und den Fakt, dass so viele unserer Sourcen über Konstantin christliche Sourcen sind. Und haben wir irgendwelche pagane Sourcen, die in der Zeit von Konstantin geschrieben wurden, die über Konstantins Leben sprechen?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Ich denke, dass der Grund, warum Konstantin Byzantium wählt, ist, dass er in der Osten regieren muss und er nicht in Nicomedia leben kann.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Als er die Konstruktion dieser monumentalen Architektur beobachtete, war er immer noch in dieser Politik der Ambiguität? War er immer noch in der Konstruktion von Tempeln für solide Verteidiger, aber auch für den christlichen Gott?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
You mentioned the sons of Constantine there. I feel it wouldn't be a proper podcast without Constantine if we don't mention Constantine's son. But you mentioned his first son earlier, Constans. What is the infamous story behind Constans' demise?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
As you say there, it sounds like that's one of the most difficult stories to sort the fact from the fiction about with sources that we have surviving. I guess, final question to wrap this all up. How do you think, as a historian who's written about Constantine, who's researched Constantine, how do you think Constantine would want to have been remembered as, first and foremost?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Is it competing with just with emperors or would it have been with other legendary figures like Alexander the Great or Cyrus or Darius?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
David, danke, dass du auf dem Show bist. Es war mir ein absoluter Freude. Du hast ein Buch über Konstantin geschrieben.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Well, there you go. There was our rerun of one of our earliest ever episodes, The Rise of Constantine with Professor David Potter. Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. You can also follow me on social media.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
I'm on both Instagram and TikTok, where I do even more ancient history stuff. Just search Tristan Hughes Ancient History. You should find me or Ancients Tristan. Don't forget, you can also listen to the Ancients and all of History Hits Podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Das ist eine wunderschöne Suche für einen Imperator. Ich glaube, Diaries ist zu stark ein Wort, aber wie du sagst, diese administrativen Papiere, diese Ordner, sie klingen, als ob sie aus Konstantins Mund selbst kommen.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Und diese wirkliche Aufmerksamkeit zu Details. Schauen wir uns den Hintergrund an, bevor er König wird, bevor er mit seinen römischen Leitern klatscht. Was wissen wir über Konstantins Hintergrund? Welche Art von Welt ist er in?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Es ist faszinierend, wie er seine frühen Karriere in der Kirche von Diocletian und im Osten gesagt hat. Glaubst du, dass all diese Wissen, die er gesehen hat, all diese Erfahrung, ihn wirklich aufbaut, wenn er auf die andere Seite des Empires geht, in den 300 Jahren mit seinem Vater, der im Endeffekt mit ihm als kräftiger König endet?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
So it's kind of exploiting the new system as well, exploiting the Tetrarchy and this joint rule over the Roman Empire.
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
Faszinierend. So, when Constantine arrives in Britain, what is Constantine's relationship with Britain?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
And as soon as he is crowned emperor by his troops, how does he go about, I mean, what are the immediate challenges he faces?
The Ancients
Emperor Constantine
So if you can control those crossings, as it were, over the Alps in this time of the Roman Empire, and you're controlling Gaul and Britain, or Roman Britain, and Constantine's managed to do this, is he now able to focus more on consolidating that northwestern part of the empire under his control?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
and it also features many well-known mythical creatures ranging from harpies, to the dragon that guarded the Golden Fleece, to the witch Circe, the Sirens, the metal giant Talos, and more. Joining me to cover this epic ancient voyage from beginning to end is the best-selling author Caroline Lawrence. Caroline has been on the podcast before to cover the story of the Minotaur.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Before we go on to the next trope, Caroline, I'd like to ask a bit more about that region. So Thessaly. So as you say, imagine Athens and Delphi a bit further south. Thermopylae is like the southern border of Thessaly, isn't it? And above Thessaly, you have Macedonia, Thessaloniki in modern day Greece.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
And I believe also, Thessaly, you do have much later, you have a king called Jason, Jason of Pheri. So it almost seems like the name Jason really does stick in that area of the world. With the Old Colossus as well, I mean, I must admit that's not a name of a place that I would instantly recognise, but I believe it's big in Bronze Age times.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
So if you also mentioned that the whole setting is a generation before the Trojan War, should we also be imagining that this young Jason, This story of the sandal and the river and all of that, this is taking place more than 3,000 years ago in the Bronze Age. That is the idea, is it? That's the setting?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
So you've mentioned that first trope straight away, Caroline. Does the second one follow straight after in the story? Is that the logical place to go next?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
She has recently written a book about Greek mythology which includes the legend of Jason and the Argonauts and how it is a classic example of the hero's journey, something we see time and time again in movies today. Let's get into it. INTRO Caroline, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. Welcome back.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
And just to jump in there as well, Caroline, that's an interesting point to make, isn't it? Because when someone says oracles of ancient Greece, people will go straight away, Delphi, the oracle of Apollo, or they might think of Olympia as well. But Dodona in northwest Greece, which was the ancient region of
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Epirus or Epirus as you said oracle to Zeus a king of the gods and a very archaic oracle too so even though the name of Dodona is not as big as Delphi today the fact that you've got wood from this sacred oracle to Zeus in the Argo I mean that is a big deal don't just because it's not Delphi don't think that it's less important arguably it's more important in the framing of the story
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Before we get on to the next part, would you mind explaining a little bit more about who these other heroes are? We won't go into their big backstories, but of course we've got the name Heracles there already, and we've got Jason, we've got their ship, the Argo, and if we go with the tradition that it's just 50 of them on this ship.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Who are some of the other very notable figures that we should think of being part of this crew of heroes assembled together, part of this great crossover?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Oh, I'm sure we will. And as I said, last time was the Minotaur. This time you've got just as juicy. a topic of ancient Greek mythology. Jason and the Argonauts. I mean, Caroline, this feels like this ancient Greek version of the Avengers, this epic story of heroes all together going on a quest to a faraway land.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
She's the famous huntress, is it? Or the one with the other golden apple story, is it, with the race? She's a famous athlete and huntress. Is that the idea?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Well, let's continue with the story then. So these women on the Isle of Lemnos where Jason has a bit of fun and the others have a bit of fun for a time, then Heracles is like, no, no, no, no, no. You need to remember what we're doing. We're going back on this quest. How does the story go on from here?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
And it's an interesting part of the world, that, isn't it? I mean, just kind of retrace our footsteps in the geography. So we've gone from Lemnos with the women. It's mentioned Samothrace there, so modern Samothrace. The Hellespont, which is the Monde Dardanelles.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
And then Propontis, which is one day the Sea of Marmara, so just kind of south of Istanbul before, as you say, you get to the Black Sea. And Sisychus, that becomes the name of a prominent Greek city-state on that Anatolian side of the Sea of Marmara, isn't it? So I'm guessing is that the origin myth of that city?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
So that's the next big one. So, so far we've had the killer women on the Isle of Lemnos, Sisychus in the Sea of Marmara, and before that, the clashing rocks. The next stage from there, is there much more before they reach Colchis or is it quite a straight road once they get there?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
You've highlighted the point there then, Caroline. Is it the fact that actually one of the most, if not the fascinating part of the whole Jason and the Argonauts story is their journey there and their journey back? I mean, getting to the Kingdom of Colchis and what he does there, yes, it's pivotal to the story and the retrieving of the golden fleece.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
But as you say, it's not slaying the monster, it's Medea helping him, putting it to sleep. And then I guess it's their returning from What is present-day Georgia? It's that area of the world, isn't it? The kingdom of Colchis. So they've got a long way to get back after that.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
So is this the beginning of the story almost? And now that Medea's on board, I'm guessing it's part of the
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
the kind of creation of the story this idea that on the return journey it's no longer Jason as this wonderful figure this hero to admire this is someone that starts getting a bit more and I guess it's thanks to Medea in how they portray it a bit more repulsive in the actions that they do and this idea I'm guessing that they're going to get their comeuppance soon because of the horrific actions that they've taken as they
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
First of all, the killing of a sibling. And second of all, in some cases, the splitting up of the body so the burial rites will be more tricky and it's an abuse of the dead. Is this all coming to a head at the moment?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Once again, very quickly, because I've now got the map in front of me, trying to get my head around it.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
It starts in the Yorkus, goes through the Hellespont, then there's the clashing rocks near Byzantium, modern-day Istanbul, going along the southern shoreline of the Black Sea, ending up at Colchis, modern-day Georgia, gets the Golden Fleece, then around the north part of the Black Sea, past Crimea, up the River Danube, somehow making it to the Adriatic Sea.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
I don't think you can do that today, can you? Ending up in the Adriatic Sea, then turning around after the killing of Medea's brother, the son of the king Aetes, the man with too many A's in his name. No, too many E's in his name.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Goes up the River Po in northern Italy, does a Hannibal by crossing the Alps, down the River Rhône in southern France. Past Corsica, past Liguria, places like Genoa today. Down the western coast of Italy, the Tyrrhenian Sea, where you meet Circe and the Sirens as well. Then through that strait, the Strait of Messenia between Sicily and the Toe of Italy. Corfu.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Then ending up in North Africa, in Libya, Tunisia, Morocco that way. Finally, Crete with Talos that you've mentioned, Caroline, and that last kind of spooky venture before returning to mainland Greece. Have I been able to summarize the geography loosely there of the whole Argonaut story?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
I wish we could talk more and more about what happens to Jason after this, because this is an important part of the story, isn't it? But this is where Medea really comes to the fore, and we could do a whole another episode on Medea's story. But can you wrap up what happens at the end when he finally returns to Iolcus and the evil king? Does Jason...
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Is there a reward because he's done this journey? Is there a happy ending for him?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Go on then. Yes. So what is the story of his death? Is it quite gruesome?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
But it's also the ship, isn't it? The ship is right at the centre. The ship is the thing that has endured all of these adventures. The end of the day with Jason, Medea has killed his children as well, hasn't she? And that's another story. And he's a broken old man. As you say, it almost feels quite fitting that he dies beneath the ship that had served him so well for his most famous adventures.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
And the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, his story and those of the people around him, is it one that has never gone away? Is it one that has caught the attention of artists, of poets, of writers, and of course of film directors down to the present day?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Caroline, this has been fantastic. Last but certainly not least, your book, which includes the story of Jason and the Argonauts, it is called?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Because it's not just Jason and the Argonauts, is it? There are so many stories of Greek mythology where it is centred around heroes going to do a quest. I might immediately think of Heracles or Hercules with his labours. Why do you think that the Greeks loved these stories of heroes going on these epic adventures, going on the hero's journey?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Well, there we go. Caroline, just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Well, there you go. There was Caroline Lawrence talking through the many amazing adventures of Jason and the Argonauts. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you would like more of Caroline, then do check out our earlier interview we did with her last year all about the Minotaur. That was also a really fun chat. And don't you worry.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
We'll cover the end of Jason's story in another episode in the future, exploring figures like Medea in the detail that a character like her definitely deserves. But that is for another episode. In the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
It's the Ancients on History Hit, I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring arguably the greatest of the mythological Greek adventure stories, and a story that has survived in full. The legend of Jason and the Argonauts, their quest to retrieve the golden fleece, the fleece of a magical golden-winged ram, protected by a dragon and owned by a faraway kingdom east of the Black Sea.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Does the story then of the Argonauts, as I said, if it's not just Jason, of course, he's the main protagonist and we'll get to more of his story in a moment, but it almost feels as it has all of these other heroes on it who all have their own stories attached to them.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
You know, in modern Hollywood today, in films, sometimes you get these great crossovers where you have several heroes who have their own movies, but they come together in a greatly anticipated movie where their stories collide and they work together. This feels like the equivalent in ancient Greece, doesn't it? This was the epic crossover story of ancient Greek heroes.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Well, that leads me nicely into what I was going to ask next, Caroline, which would be, how old do we think the story of Jason and the Argonauts is? I mean, when do we have the earliest mention of it? And then when do we finally get the whole text in itself? Or do we get the whole text in the beginning? What do we know?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Jason and his crew of heroes' many adventures during this quest to retrieve the Golden Fleece have captivated people for millennia. This is a story that goes from Greece to the Bosphorus, that narrow strait of water where Istanbul is today, to modern-day Georgia and the ancient Kingdom of Colchis.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
But I think that also means we need to raise an important point right now.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Is it, Caroline, and this seems to be something that we hear again and again, that with Greek mythology, although we may love it and we will cover the main beats, is it important to highlight that in these different versions that stretch from classical Greece and Pindar to the Roman period, that they all have their own elements into it?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
You can almost see the story evolving over time and certain characters being there in one version, not there in another version kind of thing.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
It's 3rd or 2nd century BC, isn't it? After Alexander the Great.
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
Well, let's start going through these different tropes now, Caroline. It feels right that we start at the beginning, doesn't it? How does the story of Jason and the Argonauts begin? How are we introduced to this character that is Jason?
The Ancients
Jason and the Argonauts
before an extraordinary return journey that sees the Argonauts voyage up the river Danube, around the Adriatic Sea, across the Alps, navigating North Africa, before finally returning to Greece. It is quite the epic story, full of famous heroes from Greek mythology, a crossover par excellence.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And I've also got in my notes that site of El Kourou. It's another royal burial site of the 25th Dynasty, if I remember correctly.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Und in Karnak gibt es den berühmten Pillar, den Taharka-Kiosk, den Sie sehen können. Ich kann über Pyramiden täglich sprechen und sie sind mit Merui verbunden. Eine andere Sache ist so interessant, ist es nicht? Wir sprechen also von 1. Millennium B.C., aber die Pyramiden, die Sie mit den Ägypten denken, sind mehr als 1.000 Jahre früher. Sie sind mit dem Königskreis und so weiter weitergegangen.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Es ist also wirklich interessant, wie diese Pyramiden-Revival in Kush stattfindet. But moving on, we'll keep going thematically, because chronologically there's quite a lot we could talk about. But thematically, keeping on that link to Egypt, when talking about religion in the kingdom of Kush, the gods that they worshipped, do a lot of them have a close link to Egypt once again?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. In today's episode we are exploring another of those ancient civilizations all too often overshadowed by more famous names like Egypt, Greece and Rome. We're shining a light on the Kingdom of Kush, its people known as the Kushites. Zentriert im heutigen Sudan, hat das Königreich Kusch eine außergewöhnliche Geschichte.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Und Isis und Hathor, sind sie größtenteils mit Heilung, Kindheit, Magie, all that stuff?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
That hybridization between Egyptian and Kushite, which is so interesting. I will draw you back into that elite area for a bit longer, I'm afraid, because one of the objects we looked at recently was that figurehead of ISIS, wasn't it? Now, would you mind... explaining what this object is, because it is so extraordinary.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And it tells a great story about ISIS, but also, I guess, larger religious practices associated with ISIS in Kush.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Without those eyes it looks like it's basically staring into your soul.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Von dem regierenden alten Ägypten bis zu dem mächtigen römischen König Augustus, haben seine Leute einen unvergesslichen Marken auf die sudanische und afrikanische Geschichte gelegt, die bis heute lebt. Um mehr über dieses Königreich zu lernen, bin ich nach dem britischen Museum gegangen, um Dr. Loretta Kilrow zu interviewen, Kuratorin für Sudan und Nubien im Museum.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
But it's really interesting. You have to type it in as well. Sometimes, you know, the sacred bark to get your mind over this image. Sometimes you say it is, but usually not in the water. It's in fact being carried. And it's like this portable house of the God from temple to temple. And that artifact of Isis in her body
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
regular portrayal as this beautiful woman, you know, that beautiful bronze bust would have been decorating that sacred object. And it must have been such a sight, as you say, for the everyday Kushite to see that processing through the street from temple to temple.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Moving on from that, we've talked about that hybridization between Kushite and Egyptian deities in Kushite religion. Are there any strictly Kushite deities that we know of?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Loretta hat letztlich eine neue Ausstellung über den alten Sudan gegründet, voller erstaunlicher Kuschite-Artefakte. The exhibition will be touring the UK in 2025 and is called Ancient Sudan, Enduring Heritage. We have a brand new documentary showcasing its artifacts out now on the History Hit YouTube channel, so please do check that out after listening to today's episode.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Sie sind es absolut. Und hoffentlich können wir ein oder zwei ausprobieren, bevor wir fertig sind. Aber es ist fast wie eine andere Vergleiche. Vielleicht ist das etwas übersimplifizierend. Oder erzähl mir, ob ich völlig falsch bin. Aber ist es wie Englisch und Französisch heute, in dem es zwei verschiedene Sprachen gibt, zum Beispiel Ägypten und Meroetisch.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Aber sie benutzen die gleichen Skripte, sind sie die gleichen Wörter benutzen?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
I didn't realize that horses, I would think of ancient Persia or somewhere like that or the steppe. I didn't realize Kush was also very well known for its horses.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Well, there you go. I didn't know that at all. But your mention there about magic, that leads me nicely onto the next part of this talk, which will be thematically death and burial. Jetzt, ich weiß, in der alten Ägypten gibt es einen sehr hohen Fokus auf Tod und Geburt von der überlebenden Archäologie. Ist das ein ähnliches Fall mit den Kushiten?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Wissen wir viel über ihre Geburtstätten und wie sie Tod behandelt haben? Also, du hast recht.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Okay then, let's appreciate it now. How did the everyday Kushites, how did they view the world?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
This chat has everything from ancient Kushite porridge to their striking pyramids. Loretta was fantastic and I hope you enjoy it. Loretta, es ist wundervoll, dich auf dem Podcast zu haben. Danke, Tristan.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
They will show by the lipid residue, by analysis of the inside of the pots.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And handmade pottery, so that's not industrialized in these great workshops, that's done by someone in the household who is creating the pot for you to use.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Let's keep on pottery a bit longer and we'll focus on an example or two in a second. But what have they also revealed about the diet? You hinted at that porridge substance earlier, but if I'm presuming the River Nile is incredibly important to the ancient Kushites and farming along the Nile surely, is it largely those kind of cereal crops and is it water as well?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And also, like, with drinking-wise, I mean, would there be milk? Would there be pastoral animals like cows and sheep and goats? And I guess also beer. Would there be beer too?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Very true indeed. Well, one last thing on the pottery, because you hinted at also the decorations and we have looked at one particular really striking pot. So kind of to introduce that, what types of decorations were usually shown on Kushite Pottery?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And depicting animals or things that they would have seen, just plants and stuff, was that quite a common motif in the industrialized level on those wheel-made pots?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And alongside pottery, what could they put in the burials to remember their fallen one?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And a cartouche, that's basically the shape of a, that was like a royal hieroglyphic name of a king would be in a cartouche. It's an oval shape.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Aber wenn du zurückkommst, wieder und wieder, fühlt es sich fast wie eine Vergleiche an, obwohl es ohne den praktischen Zweck ist, wie die Blätter auf dem Gebet eines Verliebten zu legen, dass du wieder und wieder zurückkommst, nicht wahr? Es ist wirklich interessant. Und dass es in Sandstone ist und wir überlebt haben, das fühlt sich ziemlich selten an.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
790 BC, that's quite a specific date in the 8th century. Do we know why you put the beginnings around the beginning of the 8th century BC?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Ich möchte mich noch einmal über Krokodile interessieren, weil ich mich über Krokodile interessieren muss. Sie leben also im Nile-River. Wissen wir also, was die Kushais, insbesondere die Landwirte oder die täglichen Menschen, die im Nile leben, wie sie die Krokodile beobachten?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Ich denke, wir gehen jetzt auf unsere letzte große Theme von heute, die natürlich Kusch und Rom ist. Also, Loretta, setze die Szene für uns. Im ersten Jahrhundert B.C., wie sieht das Königreich von Kusch aus? Ist es mächtig? Ist es viel Urbanismus? Was wissen wir über das Königreich von Kusch, als die Romäner in diese Arena reisen?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
So that's when the Greeks ruled Egypt as well, the Ptolemies, yeah.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Let's do the story, because this story, I think, epitomizes it, isn't it? So what is the story about when Rome meets Kush? But it's also a hostile one.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
So it has a hostile beginning, but then after that relations between Kush and Iran are actually very good.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Also, archäologische Beweise, das scheint sich mit der tollen Geschichte von Strabo zu verabschieden, von diesen Kushiten, die die römische Ägypten zerstörten. Und, weißt du, ich glaube, Strabo sagt auch, dass sie Statue-Heads ausgetauscht haben.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Also, ein Statue-Head zurücknehmen und dann hast du das Beweis, dass es eine der besten Geschichten ist, die ich jemals von der ältesten Geschichte gehört habe. Und ich liebe es und bin so froh. Und es ist so ein unglaubliches Artefakt, das überlebt und überlebt hat, wie es ist.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Rather briefly, I know it's a long period of time, but do we see much Roman architecture, much Roman art in Meroe in the Kingdom of Kush once this period of hostility has passed and then there is this more cordial relations between the two?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Well, there you go, that's the end. But the Kingdom of Kush still endures a thousand years of history that we've covered today, going from the 25th Dynasty and links to ancient Egypt and the New Kingdom before that, all the way down through to the Roman period and the Aksumites in the 4th century AD. Loretta? Wir haben viel besprochen. Vielen Dank. Sehr thematisch auch.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Wir sind sehr glücklich mit dem, was wir besprochen haben. Letztlich, aber sicher nicht am wenigsten, erzählen Sie uns über diese neue Ausstellung, die Sie als Teil des britischen Museums kreiert haben, aber die in den USA touriert hat. Das ist sehr viel umfassend und fokussiert auf den alten Sudan und seine unglaubliche Herkunft.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Aber das ist interessant. Also das 25. Dynastie, ist das eine der frühesten Beweise, die wir für das Königreich von Kush haben? Haben wir irgendeine Ahnung, was vorher in diesem Bereich kam, was jetzt Sudan ist?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Brilliant. Loretta, you've put so much work into this and you've been so... generous to us with your time it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today thank you Well, there you go. There was Dr. Loretta Kilrow giving you an overview of the ancient kingdom of Kush.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Their new exhibition, Ancient Sudan Enduring Heritage, is touring the UK in 2025 and you can learn more about it on the British Museum's website. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits Podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Right, so Egyptian New Kingdom, so before the first millennium BC, and that's the time of famous names like Ramesses II and Tutankhamun, when Egypt is very much at its zenith. At that time, before the Kingdom of Kush, Sudan was very much part of that great empire further north, I guess down the River Nile.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And moving would it generally be in that time? Should we not be thinking roads? Should we be thinking river travel?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
So it sounds like right away and indeed before the time of the Kingdom of Kush, there is this strong connection between Egypt and Kush and ancient Sudan. And is this a connection, a link that we will see almost continually through the whole story of the Kingdom of Kush?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And we'll explore more and more of that. And I also love what you mentioned there also about them cutting off statues and bringing them back, because I think we'll explore a famous example of that later on. But if we then go to that 25th Dynasty that you highlighted right at the start, does this almost feel like role reversal in a way that, you know, once conquered Sudan and
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Then the Egyptians go back after the New Kingdom and then this dynasty rise up from Kush and take over Egypt. So instead of Egypt being the heart of the dynasty's power at that time, in actual fact at that time it was Sudan, it was Kush.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Also ist das der biblische Kontext? Es geht um die Assyrien, die mehr schreiben.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
And so going on from that, I must also, if we keep on the 25th Dynasty a little longer, because should we talk about pyramids? Because there is a very interesting, a very cool fact about pyramids in Sudan. And I'm guessing a few of them date to this period. What is this obsession, shall I say, between the 25th Dynasty and pyramids and the great magnitude and number of pyramids in Sudan?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Do we think they all date to the time of the Kushites of the Kingdom of Kush? Is that when that fascination with pyramids really takes hold?
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Die Sonne steigt über den Nihil-Wall. Vor dem Nihil-Wall ist eine Ecke mit konikulären Pyramiden, alle mit steifigen, schwarzen Seiten. Sie bemerken die Entfernung zu einer wunderschönen alten Stadt, die den vertilen Nihil in den östlichen Sahara überblickt. Aber diese Pyramiden, die aus den desertischen Sanden aussehen, sind nicht in Ägypten. Sie sind in Sudan, in dem alten Königreich von Kush.
The Ancients
The Kingdom of Kush
Und sie sind ziemlich dünn, aber tiefen Pyramiden, ziemlich konikulär.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
The general had asked to whom Alexander left his empire. Alexander had simply replied, To Kratisdo, to the strongest. Now unfortunately, it's very likely that Alexander did not pass from this world with those legendary final words. However, fictional or not, they have come to epitomise the titanic struggle for power that followed his death. Alexander's death was unexpected.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Graham, I think even just highlighting that immediate bloodshed that occurs right after Alexander the Great's death, you've highlighted straight away the chaos that really emerges and happens throughout this period following his death. But it feels like then that with Alexander the Great's death, unexpectedly, aged 32...
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Aged just 32, he left no clear heir to the throne. His only son was illegitimate. His wife, a Bactrian princess called Roxana, was pregnant at the time of Alexander's death and she would ultimately give birth to a son. But that son, although Alexander's sole legitimate heir, would be incapable of ruling for years. Alexander also had a brother, an elder half-brother in fact, called Aridaeus.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
The fact that he has no clear successor in the fact he says he's got one child who's illegitimate. His wife is pregnant, but they don't know at that time if it is going to be a son, although it will be a son. And a brother who is older, but as you say, a guy called Aridaeus, but he's incapable of ruling on his own. And then you throw into the mix these generals who'd been fighting for Alexander.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
And I guess being with the context, I always like picturing them as mini-Alexanders because they're kind of the same kind of charismatic leaders fighting in the front ranks of their men. Very confident, you can say very arrogant leaders too, willing to serve under Alexander. But as you say, if the hierarchy amongst generals is there and there's no clear air...
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Is it that they quickly go from brothers in arms to kind of the most hostile of enemies because they're not willing to serve amongst one of their fellow former generals? They don't see one of their former generals as more superior to them kind of thing. Is it that kind of ideology we need to understand, that kind of mindset with these generals?
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
These generals start biting the dust very quickly, either when they're trying to carve out their own power in this difficult time, or when there was no clear royal success of Alexander the Great. They're all trying to get that prestige and vying for power, and there's that clear rivalry between all of them.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
And Leonardo is a case in point, one of these figures very early on, which you've also highlighted right there, Graham. It's not just internal troubles that seize this empire straight away with all these competing generals and people thinking, well, I should be responsible for this and so on.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
But Aridaeus had a condition that meant that he was incapable of ruling without help. It had also saved his life, Alexander therefore had not considered Aridaeus a threat to his rule. It would ultimately be the incapable Aridaeus and Roxana's newborn son, who the Macedonians would name as Alexander's regal successors, joint-kings, but everyone knew that their actual power was non-existent.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
You also have, I guess, those external threats in regards to those people who had been in the empire and now see a chance with this instability to revolt. And the Greek cities are a good example of that.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
so graham i think you've highlighted there you know there are numerous characters there are numerous events that happen almost straight away following alexander the great's death and too many figures to follow in one episode but let's talk about the sources first of all because if we have so many names surviving do we actually have quite a rich record of sources covering these successes and the years that follow alexander the great's death and what happens
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Real power lay with Alexander's former generals, experienced commanders who had served with Alexander throughout his campaigns and been critical to the king's many military successes. It was these generals, all larger-than-life figures, who would decide the fate of Alexander's empire and help forge the Hellenistic world that emerged from it.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
highlight straight away isn't it Graham without going into too many names but those initial years following Alexander the Great's death there are those three senior generals of Antipater Macedonia Craterus the old infantry general and Perdiccas but all of them within four years of Alexander the Great's death they are all dead either assassinated killed on the battlefield or in Antipater's case seems to die of old age so good old Antipater that seems to be a bit of an exception from the rule
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
And then, as you say, following that, you get the rise to the fore of these other big figures who come to dominate the successors, like, as you say, Ptolemy, Antigonus, Seleucus, Eumenes, Demetrius, Lysimachus, and so on. We could talk about all those generals in depth each, but I don't think we have the time to. What I would like to ask, though...
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
overarching what they will do and the fighting they will do and the carving out of their own parts of what was once Alexander the Great's empire. How important for all of them is Alexander the Great's memory? Because this feels central.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
It was crocodiles, wasn't it? Yeah, the river-dwelling creatures. Crocodiles, yeah.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
These were the successors, and it's their story that we are covering today. After putting down a soldier mutiny almost immediately after Alexander died, the generals who had outlived their king in Babylon divided the spoils of Alexander's empire amongst themselves. Regions were given out to these generals almost as prizes for their senior positions and for outliving Alexander.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Just to kind of summarise there, because you touched on so many great points, Graham, even though Alexander the Great doesn't leave any adult sons who would immediately take over, although that would have been troublesome anyway, the fact that there are all those relatives of Alexander the Great who have massive roles in those early years of the successors, including his sister, his full sister, who's called, confusingly, he's also called Cleopatra.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
But as you say, the women are Around Alexander the Great, his mum Olympias, famously played by Angelina Jolie in the Alexander 2004 epic, and his full sister Cleopatra become major players. Generals wanting to marry Cleopatra, as you mentioned earlier. Olympias being this formidable figure herself and actively leading in battle and trying to secure the throne for her grandson. But as time goes on,
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
These generals, if they can't align themselves with Alexander the Great's royal family, they kill off these royal family members brutally. And does that pave the way that after a few decades or so, those generals, those successors who have managed to survive, like Ptolemy in Egypt and so on, now they no longer have any of those...
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
But Macedonian control over many of these regions was incredibly fragile. These generals would have to deal with rebellions and revolts that quickly broke out across the empire, stretching from Bulgaria to Afghanistan. The biggest rebellion broke out in Greece, where a number of city-states spearheaded by Athens launched a massive revolt.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Graham, it's one other thing to highlight there, isn't it? The geographic areas that they're campaigning in are massive. A lot of time around the eastern Mediterranean, but sometimes you have armies marching from the borders of India all the way back to Asia Minor. So geographically, it's such a large area. If there's so much warfare, do we know much about the make-up?
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
of these armies, and I guess the navies too, of these various successors as generals and then as kings. Do we know much about the military aspect of their armies that they're using to fight one another?
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
It was called the Lamian War, after a city in northern Greece where the central siege of this revolt took place. This revolt would ultimately be put down. Athens would surrender. But only after several battles on land and sea and over a year of fighting. In the initial years after Alexander the Great's death, his fracturing empire was effectively ruled by his three most senior surviving generals.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
The two kings were totemic figureheads. Real power lay with these commanders. These three generals were Perdiccas, Antipater and Craterus. Perdiccas ruled in Asia, east of the Aegean, and controlled what had been Alexander's all-conquering army – Antipater ruled in Europe, in Alexander's home region of Macedonia.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Can we talk a bit about the ships as well and the naval elements? Because is this a period where it's like bigger is better? Let's get a massive ship and put some catapults and stuff on it and send it against a city or against another army full of big ships.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
He was the eldest of the three, a wily old statesman in his seventies who had served Alexander as governor of Macedonia for more than a decade. Supporting Antipater was Craterus, the most revered general that had served Alexander the Great. The idea was that all three would rule Alexander's empire until Alexander's son, the boy king, confusingly also called Alexander, came of age.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
And they don't do very well, it seems, for the most part, which is ironic. How does it come to an end, the wars of the successors? What is ultimately the outcome of this turbulent period?
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
All three were united through marriages. Both Perdiccas and Craterus married daughters of Antipater. Think of this almost as a Macedonian triumvirate. But, despite this apparent closeness, the relations between these three were strained from the beginning, and they were unable to contain the desires of equally ambitious generals that supposedly served them.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
It is so interesting when you look at it on a map. When Alexander dies in 323 BC, so that being one empire, and then fast forward, as you say, to the death of Pyrrhus, so let's say 270. So we've got 50 years later, and you see how fractured it is, but into these different kingdoms. But ultimately, those kingdoms are the ones that will come into contact with Rome and be destroyed.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Leading lights in the Hellenistic period. And also, as you say, there is no longer that family of Alexander the Great. They've all perished. They've been used and they've perished in those years of those successes. I mean, Graham, I wish I could ask you more about the economies, about the city-states and other factors, but we have to wrap it up there because
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
It feels almost unfair that I've asked you to do the successes of Alexander the Great in one shout because there are so many names, so many stories, and so many things we can talk about. But hopefully it's given people an idea of just how extraordinary this period is, isn't it?
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
It is like, despite the relative lack of sources we have, there is still so much to talk about about these figures who it feels like they are unparalleled in the whole of ancient history.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
two hours or whatever right as you say like you know all those figures and a really amazing period in history and graham it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast and going into this nerdy deep dive with me today on this period which is absolutely incredible yeah you're welcome anyone who wants to contact me please do i'd be happy to talk for hours on these subjects that's why i became a lecturer on it so i can just talk and talk until i'm forced to drag it away from the podium
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Well, there you go. There was Dr Graham Wrightson giving you an introduction to the turbulent, fascinating world of the successors of Alexander the Great. There are so many events, so many characters, so much turmoil in this period of ancient history that I've no doubt will revisit this topic in the future and tell its story in the detail that it deserves.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
But until then, I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating, we'd really appreciate that.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
These were generals like Antigonus, governor of an important province in Asia Minor, present-day Anatolia, who became an enemy of Perdiccas. There was also Ptolemy, arguably the man who triggered the first great war between these successors barely two years after Alexander the Great's death. Almost as soon as Alexander the Great died, Ptolemy had seized control of the wealthy province of Egypt.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Over the following years, he strengthened up his power base in the region, determined to oppose Perdiccas and his supremacy. In 321 BC, Ptolemy made his move. At that time, Alexander the Great's body was being transported from Babylon to be buried in Macedonia on Perlicus's orders. Alexander's body had been placed in a beautiful carriage, adorned with gold and shaped like a temple.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
It had taken two years to build. Whilst this elaborate temple on wheels was slowly making its way through Syria, Ptolemy hijacked it. He had already bribed the soldiers guarding the carriage and then proceeded to escort it back to Egypt where he oversaw Alexander's burial, an incredibly symbolic and prestigious event. The die was cast.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Perdiccas reacted by launching a full-scale invasion of Egypt with his army, more than 50,000 strong, determined to depose Ptolemy and retrieve Alexander's body. But Perdiccas soon found himself fighting on two fronts. In the meantime, his alliance with Antipater and Craterus had broken down, the triumvirate had shattered.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Antipater and Craterus had become convinced that Perdiccas was plotting against them. And to be fair, Perdiccas hadn't helped matters. Because in the meantime, he had aligned himself with another faction. a royal one. Alexander the Great's male relatives might have been weak and controllable, but the women in his family were a different story.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Olympias, the formidable mother of Alexander the Great and adored matriarch of the Macedonian Empire, teamed up with her sole surviving child. Her name was Cleopatra, the full sister of Alexander the Great. Both Olympias and Cleopatra hated Antipater. In their efforts to survive in this turbulent post-Alexander world, they made an irresistible offer to Perdiccas.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
An offer of marriage to the princess Cleopatra. Perdiccas agreed to it. It was an offer that this ambitious general simply could not turn down. By doing this he married into the royal family, but he also shunned his current wife, Antipater's daughter, and made his desires for the throne clear to see. Such overt imperial desires threatened Antipater and Craterus and forced them to act.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Those were the immortalized, fabled last words of Alexander the Great, when he died in Babylon after a short and sudden illness on the 11th of June 323 BC, aged just 32. In his 13-year reign, he had conquered the mighty Persian Empire and forged one of the largest empires the world had yet seen, stretching from Greece to the Indian subcontinent.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
And so, at the same time that Perdiccas invaded Egypt, hundreds of miles to the north, Antipater and Craterus crossed into Asia with their own army to battle Perdiccas' forces, increasing the size and scale of this first great civil war, the First Successor War.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Perdiccas and Craterus would both perish during this civil war, one murdered by his own officers, the other trampled underfoot and falling from his horse in a cavalry clash. Antipater would survive, but not for long. Within a year, he too was dead, dying of old age. He attempted to create a new imperial order after the war at a place called Triparadasis, keeping Alexander's empire together.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
But it proved a forlorn hope. Within a year of Antipater's death, civil war had broken out once more. The empire would permanently fracture as various generals rose to the fore and attempted to carve out their own territories. Antigonus, Eumenes and Seleucus in Asia, Cassander and Polyperchon in Greece and Macedonia, Ptolemy in Egypt and so on.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
The following years would be marked by unrivalled chaos in ancient history. Generals who had once served alongside each other under Alexander the Great as brothers in arms would now lead armies tens of thousands strong over thousands of kilometres to fight each other.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
From the plains of Persia to the narrow strait of the Dardanelles, titanic battles occurred on land and at sea, alongside sieges of cities with monumental new contraptions, think catapults and iron-plated towers. The wars of these successors are some of the most extraordinary yet brutal in history.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Within a decade, these successors had murdered almost all surviving members of Alexander the Great's royal family, and the winners of this chaotic struggle became kings in their own right, forging the famous kingdoms of the Hellenistic world, the Ptolemaic Kingdom in Egypt, the Antigonid Kingdom in Macedonia, and the Seleucid Empire in Asia.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Alexander the Great may have forged a massive empire, but the legacy of his conquests were determined by his successors, some of the most remarkable military figures in ancient history.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Today, we're going to delve into the story of these generals, these successors. My guest is Dr. Graham Wrightson, Associate Professor of History at South Dakota State University. Graham is an expert on ancient warfare at the time of Alexander and his successors and has written extensively on the military campaigns of these fascinating figures that followed Alexander.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
Graham, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Now, we have on The Ancients recorded more than 550 episodes over the last five years, Graham. And I've yet ever to do an episode on what I would say is perhaps my favourite pet topic in all of ancient history until today.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
The successors of Alexander the Great, Graham, personally, I feel that this is a topic that more and more people, general public, are starting to hear about and are starting to get more interested in. And you always hear phrases like it's more Game of Thrones than Game of Thrones. But I think there's some truth to it.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
I think people didn't realise how extraordinary this period of ancient history is.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
His achievements have been the talk of countless books and podcast episodes, but the story of the chaos that erupted after his death is even more fascinating. This chaos is epitomised by those fabled last words themselves, to the strongest – These words were an answer, an answer by Alexander to one of his generals who had approached his deathbed.
The Ancients
Successors of Alexander the Great
It feels like the logical place to start would be actually with the death of Alexander the Great. Graham, can you first of all give us a sense of the geopolitical context of the world that has been carved out by Alexander just before he died? Let's say May 323 BC. What does the world look like?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
The problems of being an Athenian commander, I think we're going to get more to that as we go along, isn't it? It seems to be a recurring theme in this period in history.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And so, does it then seem that by 415 BC, are the Athenians very much licking their wounds at this point in time? It seems to be just in the wake of this massive military catastrophe.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Which you see once again, you know, that idea that you're invincible, you're the dominant power, and it's slightly being etched away by the recent disastrous, by the setbacks that they've suffered.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
At the end of the 5th century BC, Athens was the loser of a major decades-long war known as the Peloponnesian War. It's been termed something of an ancient Greek world war. Athens versus Sparta, plus their many allies, and the various theatres of combat that stretched from Sicily to the Black Sea.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
You mentioned Thucydides there, and you've mentioned him a couple of times already. Who are these key sources who are integral to our story today?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Do we have any other types of sources as well? Do you have inscriptions or references to the war and other types of sources?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
As Athenian drama, they like sometimes bringing on contemporary events or political events that they kind of bring into their works, although maybe a bit covertly sometimes.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
That's another conversation. The whole setting of that one in Athens brings me to another question I feel I need to ask before we go more into the narrative of that last decade or so. What does Athens look like at that time? How does it function? How does it survive? What do we know about Athens as a place at that time?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Ultimately, it was Sparta who emerged the victor, thanks largely to help from the looming superpower of the time, the Persian Empire. And Athens would lose its empire and its dominant position in the Greek world. It is a huge event that completely reshaped the ancient Greek world, featuring larger-than-life generals on both the Spartan and the Athenian side, figures like Lysander and Alcibiades.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And with that setting, so you say there are tensions in Athens following the failure of the Syracusan expedition, their reliance on grain coming in, as I said, through almost that choke point to modern Dardanelles, the ancient head of spawn from the Black Sea. You've got Spartans in the distance. They're now occupying Decalere around that time.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So is it that in the last few years of the 410s BC, so let's say from 415 to 410, is that a period of real stress for the Athenians? Is it really difficult? Is that dire straits time?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
They never saw Pericles in a way similar to that. That's a different kind of setting, is it?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Okay, so who exactly was Alcibiades, this cult hero at this time, it seems?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
To talk through Athens' downfall and the many twists and turns in this story, I was delighted to interview my old professor Alistair Blanchard from the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia. Now in the past, Alistair and I have covered topics ranging from Heracles to Achilles to the plague of Athens and homosexuality in ancient Greece. This was great fun to do and I hope you enjoy it.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
This is cutting off the genitals of these weird statues called Hermes, isn't it? That's right.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Even though he's the person who's advised the Spartans to pitch camp in Decelea in their territory. Their memory is quite short in that part.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And Persia at that time, it is still the superpower, isn't it? Greece is just a small speck at the edge of the Persian Empire. It is huge, and I guess most importantly, it's hugely wealthy.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So what happens in this new field which seems incredibly important away from the battlefield? This is the diplomatic battlefield, so the Spartans as well realize they've got to try and get the Persians on side. How does that all unravel? You've got Alcibiades on one side, the Spartans on the other, and I guess the Persians or representative of the Persians just hearing their cases.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Alistair, what a pleasure. It is great to have you back on the podcast. Thank you very much. Always great to be here. And this time, first time ever, we're doing it in person. We've brought you to the Ancients HQ, to History Hit HQ, and we are doing it in person. You're not the other side of the world in Australia. Yes, it's so nice to be actually in the same time.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
What happens? Let's do the next five years and then we can finish on those last few years where you get into real big detail. Let's say between 410 and 406 BC. That's an appropriate time, isn't it, with the story of Alcibiades. How do Athens' fortunes fare in those four years when Alcibiades is right at the forefront?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Do you think Sparta had always realised that the key to defeating Athens would be to take the war to sea, but they never had that ability. But with the Persian backing, they now have that ability. And with that, they're now taking the war into the sea.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And are they realising that to strike at Athens and its navy, it's not actually striking directly at the city of Athens, the very powerful city of Athens, but it's that supply route. It's taking control of that supply route and basically starving Athens out. Is that their strategy?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So I'm no longer either waking up or going to bed or... Well, normally I'm waking up about seven or eight o'clock in the morning and it's evening your time, isn't it? But that's what you get for living in Brisbane, which is a lovely part of the world. But we, of course, are going to another topic close to your heart. We've done Heracles in the past. We've done Achilles.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
That's so interesting. We'll get to Argonuzai in a second, but it almost feels like, so completely by this time, you mentioned there were a couple of full starts with the Spartan navy, but within a few years, if there was still any aura of invincibility of the Athenian fleet, the backbone to their power, that has now gone.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
They've shown that the Athenian fleet can be beaten and Sparta can be victorious with Persian backing in this field. You say, when we get to Argonuzai, which we're going to now, Spartan heads are up by that.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And so you mentioned the word Argonuzai. So what is this great battle that seems one of two of these massive sea battles that occurs right at the end of this war?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
But Athens, the city of Athens and the fall of Athens. It feels quite a weird thing to say because we think of Athens even today as this great glorious city of Greece. But back in ancient times, it was the loser in one of the great, or it was the great world war of the Greek world.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
They're sentenced to death. They're victorious generals. They've just saved their fleets when it seems like the Spartans have got their tails up. It's mind-blowing, that decision.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Well, good for them. And I said, it's a great victory, as you mentioned. It's a significant victory for the Athenians. They've saved their fleet. I mean, the language that you've used, Alistair, almost sounds like one great defeat for the Athenians and their fleet is gone. Was it the same for the Spartans? I mean, they've just been defeated at Arginusae. So what happens next?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Is it almost like the Linnaean Hydra that the Spartans, they can just get another fleet quickly, thanks to the Persians?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Thanks to Lysander, this strong relationship with Cyrus and with the Persians. With that backing, how long does it take for Sparta to be able to bounce back after this disastrous defeat?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
That is game over. That is the major Athenian fleet that they have, isn't it?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Well, set the scene first of all, Alistair. So you've kind of highlighted it there, but let's get it right for the background and in the good detail. So what is this great war that occurs, the so-called Peloponnesian War? Why is it so significant?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And I'm always just astonished by how quickly the Lysander and the Persians, they're able to create that new navy or get that new navy together. So as you say, this is like within a year or so, isn't it? So it's incredibly quick that they bounce back and are able to inflict this devastating loss on the Athenians.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So the game's up, they've got control of the Hellespont now, so they've got control of that grain supply. Is the next aim, I mean, is it full speed ahead to Athens at that point?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
How many people do we think are in Athens at that time? Tens of thousands?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Are there any other things that they have to do? Do they have to pay tribute? Or is that more just the humiliation, the taking away of their defenses? But the city is not completely burned to the ground. Is that almost kind of the compromise?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
It's not a fall unlike other places. I mean, I did the fall of Carthage not too long ago, and that ends with the Romans going through all of the streets, fighting building by building, story by story, killing everyone that they see. That is almost avoided with Athens. And so you do still have the Athenian
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
viewpoint of it afterwards because the city endures so in that respect i mean they've seen their city formed from the empire is no more but how do the athenians view all this i mean are they a city just in absolute abject are they completely demoralized
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And so what happens in New Look Sparta after they've been brought to heel?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So how does Athens fare? They've got this new constitution by Lysander, who then is the subject of... I mean, Sparta now has its own problems, even though it's the victor, as you say, with figures like Lysander. But Athens at that time, I mean, how does the city fare? It's citizens' fare now. It's under, I guess, kind of under the control of the Spartans or aligned to the Spartans.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
This is interesting because looking at things in the past it's like the fall of Carthage, permanent fall for the Carthaginians and the ancient Carthaginian city of Carthage at least. Fall of Roman Britain, permanence. Romans never come back. Fall of Athens then? Would you argue that it's not a permanent thing? Do you then see Athens' power reviving after this?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And this kind of system, I mean, how does Athens gain so much power going from one city-state to becoming such a powerful entity in the central Mediterranean?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Athens rises again. It's interesting, isn't it? Because obviously my main area is after Alexander's death. And then you get another fall of Athens then, when they try to rebel against the Macedonians after Alexander's death. And once again, it's a humiliating treaty. And again, you've got a Macedonian garrison in Munichia. And then, of course, you get the Romans later.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So it's almost that Athens experiences multiple falls in its time. But in several cases, they are able to bounce back from them.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Last question, very quickly, 20 to 30 second answer, I must admit. We talked about Alcibiades. He goes off to his castle at the Hellespont. He's told to go away, told to bugger off by these commanders. His life after that, it doesn't last long, does it?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And definitely in line with Alcibiades' character that has survived, doesn't it, Alistair? This has been a fantastic story. And as you've mentioned before, this fall of Athens, although you could argue there are multiple falls, this is the one that is so significant in the changing of the world order of the Greek world.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Well, Alistair, just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Well, there you go. There was Professor Alistair Blanchard talking through the dramatic story that is the fall of Athens at the end of the Peloponnesian War. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening to it. Please follow this show, The Ancients, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I will see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
It's interesting. It's sometimes labeled as an ancient NATO equivalent.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So it transforms from the League into the Athenian Empire, and that's a whole podcast episode in its own right. And how long is it until other city-states looking at this, seeing Athens gaining power, deciding that enough is enough, or with warfare breaking out?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
Is this naval trade more than land trade? Is that kind of where they're challenging each other?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
That's interesting because sometimes we focus too much on it being Athens versus Sparta, but you also have those other major powers like Corinth and Thebes as well. They all play a part in the outbreak of this great war.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So the war breaks out, so Athens on one side, Sparta on the other, but also major other players like Corinth, as you've highlighted there. So as we're focusing just on the end of the war, and spoiler alert, the fall of Athens, so it doesn't end well for the Athenians. But if we go, let's say, to the year 415 BC, first of all, Alistair, how far into this great war are we by that point?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And they had the plague as well. That was also a topic. That was the first ever episode we recorded together. We did the plague of Athens. They've also had that plague. I know it's much earlier on, but that's also a bad thing that happened to Athens at that time.
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
So that first stage is almost as you say, it's a stalemate. It's the Arcadamian War. Is that what it's called?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
And so that is 421, did you say? That's right, yes. And so to get to 415 BC, so six years later, I mean, what happens in the interim? I mean, you've got a peace. So why are you back at war again?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
I mean, just geographically, you've been fighting in the area around the central Mediterranean, around mainland Greece and the Cyclades and the islands. This is a massive change in strategy to then go all the way across a huge amount of sea to campaign in Sicily. What's the thinking behind this?
The Ancients
The Fall of Athens
404 BC. Panic sweeps through Athens. After decades of dominance, total defeat is nearing for the city and its people. Their navy has been destroyed, their food supply cut off, and now on the horizon, an armada of enemy ships can be seen. The Spartans are coming. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and today we're telling the story of the Fall of Athens.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
I was going to say, almost kind of reinforcing literally what you just said there, Danielle, that even below, even south of that great ice sheet that you highlighted there, it's still quite, as you said, inhospitable, barren landscape. And so I'm guessing, is there a rich diversity of species able to adapt and live in that incredibly cold environment at that time?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Basically Arctic conditions, isn't it? It's really, really interesting. Naturally, there were humans and early humans in Britain before that time. So many sites talk about the Neanderthals and early Homo sapiens as well. But are humans there at that time when it gets much colder again in that last glacial maximum?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
The end of Ice Age Britain. A time of rapidly changing temperatures, of ice sheets melting, sea levels rising, and humans adapting to a more expansive and warmer Britain. A Britain that became cut off from the rest of Europe, that became an island. But these changes didn't happen overnight, and it wasn't a simple straight-line case of things going from cold to warm either.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
It may well be that we don't know the answer for this, but could there have been any life north of the ice sheets in regards to animals during that last glacial maximum? Or is it all beneath the ice sheets?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
When does the ice sheet start to recede? What's the story of the end of the last glacial maximum? What happens?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
When talking about rapid changes, I know when looking at Paleolithic history, rapid can sometimes mean hundreds of years. Do we know roughly how rapid we're talking about with the climate changing back then?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Wow. So you can do that today. You can go and get ice cores from Greenland and that's almost undisturbed natural resources that can tell you the speed of the changing climate and I guess give you more of a sense, an environmental record of what happened at that time.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
The Ice Age took thousands of years to end in Britain and had a massive impact both on the animals and humans that then called Britain their home. Extreme temperature switches that forced them either to adapt, leave or die. It's an extraordinary story, starring various animals ranging from Siberian lemmings to saiga antelope, and of course, humans.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Let's focus first of all on that first great warming period, Danielle. If it is pretty rapid that it happens, how does this affect those animals that had adapted to survive on that far edge of the hospitable world?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
So from that cave site, so from that time period in southern Britain, you need to imagine collared lemmings alongside dormice. I mean, that's extraordinary. That's such extraordinary breadth and variety. I mean, kind of in the environments, as you say, that they would have to live in. And yet they were able to live side by side at that time.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
So it's interesting there. So for those animals that were already there before it gets warmer, is it very much a choice of adapt or move incredibly long distances away like the woolly mammoths?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
So what sorts of animals lived in Britain during these last fluctuating throes of the Ice Age? Why did the climate suddenly get much colder again roughly 13,000 years ago, the so-called Younger Dryas Period? And how were humans affected by all of this change? It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
How does this climate change affect humans? Do humans come back at this time?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Exactly. The days of humans hunting or scavenging off mammoths has long gone by that time in Britain, isn't it? It's really, really interesting. And I'm guessing, shall we mention one of those key sites, which is Goff's Cave? This feels an important site to highlight for evidence of humans returning at this time.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Today we're releasing the final episode of our Ice Age miniseries this February, and boy, what an episode this is. The end of the Ice Age in Britain. Joining me to explain what we know, I was delighted to interview the paleobiologist Professor Danielle Shreve from the University of Bristol.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Goff's Cave. So is that southwest England as well? Is that Somerset or Wiltshire? It's near the Mendips, is it?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
So let's move on to the next stage. Danielle, it looks like things are getting warmer. Humans are back. New species are in the fold in Britain. But as time goes on, what happens? Something very different happens.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Danielle studies animal remains, particularly mammals, to understand how they responded to these abrupt changes in climate that define the end of the Ice Age. And what lessons we can learn from this when tackling climate change today. She's an expert on the end of the Ice Age in Britain and how this tumultuous period affected life on this edge of the Ice Age world. Enjoy.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
How does this rather abrupt switch of climactic conditions affect the lifestyle, the world of Ice Age Britain at that time, and the animals and humans as well that were living in it?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
I want to talk a bit more about lemmings. So if you discover the remains of a lemming, is that one of the go-to signs that that was a cold climate time in Britain's Ice Age story?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
And in regards to those conditions, do we think the temperatures during the Younger Dryas in Britain, do we think it was as cold as it had been in the last glacial maximum or not quite as cold, but still a shock to the system?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
And is it an alternate name for the Younger Dryas in Britain? Is it the Loch Lomond Stadium or something like that? Do we need to say that name too?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Let's talk about the end of the Ice Age in Britain. And I know it's quite a massive statement to start, but it feels like this is a time when Britain's world, it completely transformed.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Right, so Scotland's covered in ice sheets again. Good for the skiing in Aviemore, but not much else in this period. I'd like to ask about one more particular type of animal before we move on to the next stage. This was just a name that really caught my eye when doing some research on this topic. It's the saiga antelope. Danielle, what is this?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Now I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but is there any evidence at all for humans at this period of time or do we just not have that surviving?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Until, because the Younger Dryas does reach its end, is it right about 11,000 or so years ago, as you mentioned, what happens? What happens when this shock to the system, this reversal in temperatures, this cooling time, what happens when that ends? Is it a continuation of the warming again?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
And just first of all, do we know how much time we can roughly talk about if we're exploring the end of the Ice Age? Should we be thinking in thousands of years?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
So that's the Mesolithic people, and then you get amazing sites like Starkar, which we've done an episode about in the past, exploring those human people right after the end of the Ice Age. But it's fascinating, isn't it, Danielle? For the animals involved, I'm guessing it was those who were able to adapt to that change in temperature to the warming period.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Those are the animals, as you say, become the most recognisable in the British landscape, and for many of them, like red deer, down to the present day.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
It's such a fascinating journey. Thank you so much for talking us through this. 10,000 years ago, it feels like by then it's the definitive end of the Ice Age. If you say the ice caps have receded from Scotland, Britain is now an island again, at least in the story of Britain, is 10,000 a good number to say the Ice Age is now over?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Yeah, that's more than 10,000 years in total, isn't it? And it's absolutely extraordinary. But before we delve into that, and you mentioned the last glacial maximum, archaeological material that you have to study to learn more about this important period, do you have quite a lot of information surviving for what actually happened at the end of the Ice Age?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
It's fascinating to think that actually those 15,000 years we've just covered is less time than between, let's say, the 10,000 BC or 11,700 years ago and today. So we've actually got a little more time than between the end of the Ice Age and where we're sitting now recording this interview together.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Lastly, Danielle, as you kind of hinted at there, but I feel it'd be nice to do this as a final remark, how important is studying the end of the ice age, the paleoecology, looking at the animal remains and the climate and the effect of humans as well? How important is all of that when exploring current issues like climate change today?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
absolutely indeed well danielle it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today thank you tristan
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
well there you go there was professor daniel shreve talking you through the story of the end of ice age britain i hope you enjoy today's episode as mentioned if you want to find out what happens right after the end of the ice age in britain then you can search in the ancients archive for an interview we did last year about star car this incredible mesolithic site and one of the earliest sites we know of for humans post ice age living in britain star car in yorkshire
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Search Starcar Ancients and you'll find that episode too. With this episode, we also bring to an end our special Ice Age miniseries this February. I hope you've enjoyed it. Please let us know your thoughts. We love hearing your feedback for episodes like this, for special miniseries episodes like our Ice Age miniseries. at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Slight tangent straight away, but I remember doing an interview a few months back where they were analysing deep sea cores, kind of taking up information from the sediment beneath the sea to get a sense of climate and the ecological world. And in that case, it was more than a million years ago.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
I'm guessing whether it's a million years or 10,000 or 20,000 years ago, is that one of the ways that you can learn more about the whole landscape and environment at that time?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Does this all belong to the field of study that I know is very close to your heart, the name paleoecology?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
And I must also ask about the word fauna. Now, what does this word entail? How big a term is it when studying paleoecology and so on?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
So whereas megafauna is kind of related to the big beasts like mammoths, rhinos and so on, fauna is a more wide-reaching term for all different animals living in the past, is it?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
I know it's archaeology, but can human remains and human interactions with these fauna, can they help in that puzzle too?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Talking about something that seems to have been important for early humans at that time and for these animals, a particular type of site, cave sites. Daniel, for deriving more information about the end of the Ice Age, how important are cave sites for finding that information and piecing together more of this puzzle?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Is limestone kind of – alkaline and that's why preservation is better in limestone cave environments than other types of stone?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Before we go through almost the main phases of those last, well, quite a few thousand years in the story of the end of the Ice Age, I feel it's important, first of all, to highlight your work at a particular site because it feels like we'll explore examples from these sites and dot them throughout the interview today.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
So tell us about your work at Ebel Gorge, where this is and what this is, why it's important to today's discussion.
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
And I mean, how rich a site is this? Are we talking about hundreds of mammal bones or are we talking a bit more than that?
The Ancients
End of Ice Age Britain
Well, let's start going through the chronology, Danielle. And should we go to maybe 25,000, 20,000 years ago? What does Britain look like at that time in this period that you've mentioned, this last glacial maximum?
The Ancients
Druids
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe. Druids.
The Ancients
Druids
That's like another part of the whole story of the druids, isn't it, Ronald? It's just the word druid and how it has evolved over the many centuries. It's almost, I guess, maybe like the word Celtic or elsewhere. I'm sure this is what you've done as well.
The Ancients
Druids
You can study the evolution of druids and who is associated with that word druid over centuries and millennia and be fascinated with how that changes too.
The Ancients
Druids
Now, Ronald, he is a regular on the History Hit Network, having featured on not just the Tudors, Betwixt the Sheets and After Dark. This is his first time on the Ancients, but boy, was he brilliant. Sit back and relax as Ronald and I explore the story of the Druids. Ronald it is a pleasure. It is great to have you on the podcast today. It's great to be here. Now, let's get straight into it.
The Ancients
Druids
Right, they become the cement. I mean, before I bring you back into ancient history and the Romans and their interactions with Druids, of course, in England, you have the figure of Boudicca, who's a massive figure, of course, at that time too, I presume.
The Ancients
Druids
Is there also a sense maybe in England with the Druids, was there a sense of them being kind of these resistance symbols alongside figures like Boudicca against the Romans 2,000 years ago? Or is that a bit too far to look at?
The Ancients
Druids
Now, the mistletoe link there is interesting because, yes, that is something you think of, isn't it? But does that have its origins in the original Roman literature when talking about Druids?
The Ancients
Druids
Well, I must admit, I think of panoramics in Asterix and Obelix. First of all, I've got to get that on the table. But the sickle is another object that has come to define these Druids too, hasn't it, Ronald?
The Ancients
Druids
I hope you don't mind if we now go to Britain and Britain back in ancient history with the Roman invasion and conquest, first century AD. So Caesar's gone now. Ronald, what do the sources tell us about the Druids and their involvement, I guess, in the resistance when the Romans decide to take over Britain?
The Ancients
Druids
That's an enormously wide spectrum, and we can't be sure of where we are on any of it. It's also interesting, isn't it? I'd say if that's in Tacitus, but I did not realize that that was the only mention in Roman literature of Druids in Britain. They're not associated with Julius Caesar in Britain or the initial Roman invasion with Aulus Plautius.
The Ancients
Druids
Because this is quite a topic, isn't it, Ronald? Shroud is doing quite a lot of mystery. And the source material that we have for the Druids in ancient history some 2,000 years ago, I mean, what types do we have?
The Ancients
Druids
It's only on the island of Anglesey that that word is used. And you've also highlighted how that word Druid is used sometimes as a word for priest as well. So Yes, the evidence, as you say, it is extremely limited, isn't it? Or at least evidence we could say the word Druid is mentioned.
The Ancients
Druids
Absolutely. And how has this particular story involving Druids? Because we've already talked about imparting the legacy of the Druids and how it evolves down into the last couple of centuries. How does this story affect the development, the view of Anglesey over the centuries and millennia following? Does it become closely associated with Druids or seen as a holy isle?
The Ancients
Druids
And so how is that defined? I mean, that is a kind of a pilgrimage place, is it?
The Ancients
Druids
Oh, well, there you go. Well, you mentioned there how in Tacitus' accounts, once they take the island, they notice evidence of human sacrifice. We talked about that a bit in passing already.
The Ancients
Druids
I want to ask, as we get later in the Roman period, do Roman writers, as the Druids become the bogeymen, do they elaborate on the, I guess, rather horrifically, the methods of human sacrifice that these Druids supposedly undertook?
The Ancients
Druids
goodness i mean i don't really want to ask is it true because it does feel like you know this is roman labeling of the bogeymen and these horrific kind of execution stories with them but maybe i can sugarcoat it a little by asking archaeologically is there evidence potential evidence of human sacrifice in britain but probably maybe not that refers to things like wickerman and so on
The Ancients
Druids
So once again, it's this idea that, let's say in Britain, yes, there seems to be evidence of human sacrifice from the archaeology, but whether that has to do with Druids, that is another question entirely.
The Ancients
Druids
Well, Ronald, I think we've covered all that we can with the ancient history and the Roman sources and archaeology. I guess the next question is when we go into the legacy and before we get to the association now with the winter solstice and so on, is you mentioned earlier how that other big source of literature, which is from medieval Ireland and Wales, is Christian literature.
The Ancients
Druids
How easy a transition is it from the Roman literature highlighting the Druids as these great bogeymen into that early medieval literature that we then see about the Druids?
The Ancients
Druids
Is it interesting that with that Irish literature, these heroes and associations with Druids at a time that Christianity is there, that the Druids, dare I say, brought in to Christianity in Ireland?
The Ancients
Druids
St. Patrick, is St. Patrick someone who fights a druid? Or am I? I think I'm right in that, is it? You're absolutely spot on.
The Ancients
Druids
It's so interesting once again, and as we've already covered in this chat, how the Druid, the name, the word, evolves over those centuries and millennia, and going from ancient times to medieval Ireland and Georgian Britain, and even now into the 20th and 21st centuries, Ronald. I mean, the word Druid is so popular today, hence why we're doing an episode all about it.
The Ancients
Druids
You know, that celebration of the land brings me wonderfully onto my last question, which is, of course, about the winter solstice and famous stone circles and prehistoric sites and the most famous, obviously, being Stonehenge. How do the Druids come to be associated with great monuments like that and the winter solstice? There are two different associations with different points.
The Ancients
Druids
Well, I also love the fact that we can also end with another association with Pliny the Elder, such a fascinating source. And this has been a brilliant chat, Ronald, all about the Druids. You've done books on the Druids in the past, and they are called?
The Ancients
Druids
Well, fantastic. Ronald, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Druids
Well, there you go. There was Professor Ronald Hutton talking all things The Druids. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening to it. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Druids
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me. I will see you in the next episode and I wish you a very Merry Christmas.
The Ancients
Druids
I mean, it's interesting you say that. I mean, if we focus first on those Greek and Roman sources, Ronald. So, as you say, there's a clear bias in the writing, is there, to when they are talking about Druids in an area that they're coming into contact with. They've already got in that mind this idea that they are civilized people, they are civilizations.
The Ancients
Druids
When someone mentions the word, you might think of old men in white robes, wearing mistletoe underneath an oak tree with a sickle. These forest-loving priests who are also closely connected today to prehistoric sites like Stonehenge and the winter solstice.
The Ancients
Druids
And Druids being so different to them, do they almost kind of become an epitome of barbarian life in their rise in the areas that they're going into?
The Ancients
Druids
I think you're absolutely right. And you can absolutely look at that in other parts of the Mediterranean world too, where you only have the Greek and Roman sources in regards to the literature for that time. I mean, Ronald, I must also ask, you mentioned right at the start, so Northwestern Europe.
The Ancients
Druids
So back 2000 years ago, whereabouts geographically are we talking about with Northwestern Europe and where the Druids lived?
The Ancients
Druids
And it's interesting, yeah. So in those areas, if we have sources talking about them, literary sources, what about archaeology, Ronald? Because this is something we haven't even talked about yet. How difficult is archaeology? I
The Ancients
Druids
And indeed, Druids, they have a long history, first mentioned more than 2,000 years ago by Roman statesmen and writers such as Cicero and Julius Caesar, when they were talking about what were, in their eyes, uncivilised barbarian societies that lived in northwest Europe. Think people like the Celts. So who were the ancient Druids? What do the sources say about them?
The Ancients
Druids
If only one day, I mean, because I mean, just to bring up a couple of examples, I was at Colchester Castle Museum a year or so ago, Ronald, and saw the doctor's grave that also used to have association with Druids and also items like the Cavernham crown.
The Ancients
Druids
So those items are out there, but as you've mentioned there, so it's very much because there's no inscription saying this was owned by a Druid, it's very much up for debate whether they were possessed by Druids.
The Ancients
Druids
Absolutely, indeed. Well, let's focus on the Roman sources, first of all, and let's kind of go through them, Ronald, and how they talk about Druids. What's some of our earliest Roman sources that start mentioning Druids?
The Ancients
Druids
Why is it so difficult to recognise Druids in surviving archaeology? Did they practice human sacrifice? And how have Druids evolved and transformed over the centuries and millennia to remain so significant down to the present day? from winter solstices to the figure of Panoramix in the brilliant comic series Asterix and Obelix. It's the ancients on History Hit.
The Ancients
Druids
And so what does it say in the Gallic Wars, in that mention of the Druids, whether it's written by Caesar or this other writer, I believe it's Hirtius, might have got the name wrong there, who continues the account after Caesar dies. What does it say about the Druids in Gaul?
The Ancients
Druids
I'd like to pick up on a couple of points there, Ronald. I mean, first of all, sometimes, you know, nowadays especially, we divide the religious world from the political world of today and we see them as two separate spheres. But is the Druids, is that a great example, at least how they're described in this account?
The Ancients
Druids
How the Druids, their power does not just centre around that religious part of life, how the religious and the political, everyday running of a community in these areas, they were very much intermixed together. So they had huge importance in the whole running, in the deciding of war and peace and daily life and religious life. Well, that's what this passage says.
The Ancients
Druids
I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and today, to align with the winter solstice of 2024, we are exploring the story of the Druids, both the mysterious Druids of Britain and France mentioned by Roman writers, but also their legacy and evolution down to the present day, Now, to talk through all of this, our guest is the wonderful Professor Ronald Hutton from the University of Bristol.
The Ancients
Druids
I said this is all theory now, Ronald, but it's interesting you also brought up Cicero there, that great orator who you always think about being stationed in Rome or in Italy. Do you think the word Druid kind of filters down into the center of the Roman Empire almost as part of the propaganda for Gould?
The Ancients
Druids
But as you say, for people actually on there, you don't actually see them as much on the front ranks in the political decision making. It's interesting that Cicero knows of the word Druid back in Italy.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Now, this episode was very special because we recorded it in person a couple of years ago at Fishbourne Roman Palace, this strikingly large Roman villa that was built on England's south coast, not far away from what is today Chichester, the place that I was born. It was the perfect location to talk all things The Rise of the Praetorian Guard.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
It does sound like as time goes on, the Praetorian embraces more policing roles in Rome too.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Lindsay, the Praetorian Guard, it must be one of the most iconic aspects of the Roman imperial period.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
I mean, it's good of you to lay out the story of Sejanus. We will go back to that story very soon and go into more depth, for instance, with the Castro Pretoria and Sejanus and his end. But one thing, just quickly before we really go into that, is one other fact about the structure of the Guard.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
I love that you mentioned this idea of spies, the speculatores, and the special role they had with these early imperial figures. But also, where were these particular soldiers for the Pretorians?
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
We're definitely going to go into those aspects like these various jobs that they had etc etc as the podcast goes on. One thing actually to start off with when we were chatting about this just before we started recording was when we do look at ancient history and we look at these iconic units like the Praetorians or these aspects of ancient history that sometimes we think we know a lot about
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
And so if we get to the end of Augustus's reign and the Praetorians, because we're going to go back to Sejanus now as you highlight this story, what does the Praetorian Guard look like when Augustus breathes his last in 14 AD? Can you see it evolving much during Augustus's reign? What's the status of it at that time?
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Is there still much more of its evolving to do during the reign of Tiberius and Sejanus?
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
actually, when you look closer, when you study on these things, there are so many of those things that we think we know about them, that is actually, there should be a lot of debate around them.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
It is so interesting, isn't it, though, if it is at this time at 20 AD or 23 AD during the reign of Tiberius and Sejanus. I'm going to say Sejanus from now on, just so we're going to just say Sejanus. The trouble is I keep thinking Patrick Stewart would wake up. We'll call him Stewart Sejanus. We'll call him Sejanus. It's so interesting.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
It's almost as if this progression, it's almost as now Augustus' dynasty, maybe it's more secured that they could take that next step of creating this camp within Rome or just outside Rome at that time, bring all of the rest of those Praetorian cohorts into the center of the empire. Because they can, because their dynasty is more strong, because the imperial period is really now ongoing.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
It's almost as if Augustus is dead. He's got his successor on the throne. It's almost like they can do it because they can, because the imperial period is now almost here to stay. Well, I'm going to challenge that a bit.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
I mean, it absolutely does. And then if we therefore, okay, the Castro Pretoria has been constructed. We're still talking about Sejanus at the high watermark period during the reign of Tiberius.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Lindsay, do we hear of any particular events during this time, or are there several, where we hear that the Praetorians are involved in some way or form, showing the variety of jobs that they could perform?
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
And that optics, that logistics, you mentioned Tiberius being Capri there, the fact that we can perhaps imagine if Ser Janus is still in Rome? Yes. If Ser Janus is still in Rome, you can imagine speculatores, spies or parts of the Praetorians going back to and fro between Rome and Capri, communicating all these stuff between Emperor and, at the time, Emperor's right-hand man.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
And so, well, then talk me through then how Sejanus' reign of power comes tumbling down.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
It's so interesting though when we look at the role of Sejanus in the rise of the Praetorian Guard, in the early history of the Praetorian Guard, it seems like his reforms and in some ways his continuation of the Guard after Augustus and the roles they performed, this interchanging with the likes of the urban cohorts and the vigiles, he does seem like one of the most significant figures
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
in the creation of the guard that we envisage almost to this day of how it was structured, what it was for, all the way down almost to Septimius Severus.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
It sets a precedent, doesn't it? I'm imagining the coin of Caligula now. Is it Caligula or Claudius where it has the coin minted, where he's at the Castra Pretoria?
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
As you say, the logistics behind it, the whole operation must have been absolutely extraordinary, remarkable. We could go on talking about Claudius and Caligula and even Nero. It's quite interesting how many Praetorian prefects are, Tigellinus, that you remember. Maybe even with Trajan, with Nerva, with Domitian, all of these prefects.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Not really the Praetorian soldiers themselves, we remember the prefects because of the actions that they do. Normally the end of a Roman emperor or something along those lines.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
But just before we wrap up, I mean, if we're focusing back on Augustus to the end of Tiberius's reign, we've chatted about a lot of things, Sejanus, the Castrum Praetoria, the structure, its use alongside the likes of the urban cohorts and the Vigales and others.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Is there anything else about the Praetorians, the rise of the Praetorians during this early stage of the imperial period that you really like to highlight?
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
They're one of the most recognisable military units of ancient history. The infamous bodyguards of Roman emperors, famous from epic movies such as Gladiator. The Praetorian Guard. But these Praetorians were much more than just imperial bodyguards. Their duties stretched from policing to fighting on the battlefield. And it's the story of their rise that we're going to explore today.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Brilliant. Lindsay Powell, this has been an absolutely wonderful chat. Fantastic chat about the rise of the Praetorians. Last and certainly not least, you've done a number of books, including a couple of books definitely related to this period. Talk us through a couple of them.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast. Absolutely. My pleasure. Well, there you go. There was the brilliant speaker and author Lindsay Powell talking through the rise of the Praetorian Guard with all of those great details that Lindsay knows and loves so well. I hope you enjoyed today's episode that we originally released more than two years ago.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Now, if you want more with Lindsay Powell, then we've got you covered because we also did, very early on in the ancient story, we did two episodes with Lindsay all about the rise and reign, if you can say reign, of Agrippa. The fascinating Agrippa, one of the most important adjutants of the Emperor Augustus. This remarkable figure. And Lindsay is equally good in those interviews too.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
So do check out our episodes on the Gripper with Lindsay Powell if you want more Lindsay in the meantime. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Absolutely. Ancient history is very much live and kicking. I'm glad you mentioned Fishbourne here because, as I said, we are doing our live recording at Fishbourne Roman Palace in the jewel of Britain, West Sussex. Wonderful to be here.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Well, let's talk about the other guard. Let's go back to the Praetorian Guard. Pre-Augustus, late Republican period, because what do we know about this unit's Republican roots?
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Our guest is Lindsay Powell, an author of many books on ancient Rome and an expert on this transition period from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire, a period that features larger-than-life figures like Julius Caesar, Augustus, Cleopatra, Tiberius, Mark Antony, but also the rise of the Praetorian Guard and how it came to be the unit associated with emperors.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
I mean, so in that regard, it's quite interesting with the violence in Rome. We did a podcast and recently ghosted that villain of the Roman Republic, that very colorful figure, Clodius, and all of that. But going back to the Praetorians today, how does Augustus go about transforming this unit from its Republican form into this organized force?
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
Talk me through how he develops the Praetorian Guard, as it were.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
That's what we all think at university, though, right? You know, in our first and second years.
The Ancients
The Praetorian Guard: Rise to Power
We're going to explore the Guard's origins, its structure, duties and key figures that rose to prominence within this unit, including the fascinating yet horrifying figure of Sejanus or Sayanus. That and much more is all to come.
The Ancients
The Franks
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Franks
Und das ist, weil das sehr spät ist. Das ist nach Attila, Aetius und all dem. Das ist sehr spät.
The Ancients
The Franks
Gehen wir zu Childrick. Er ist der erste große Spieler in der Geschichte der Franks. Was ist die Geschichte mit Childrick und wie er auf die Szene kommt?
The Ancients
The Franks
Ein neuer, auf der europäischen Bühne wachsender König. Sein Name war Clovis, König der Franken und ein Mann, der die westliche Europa transformieren wollte. It's the Ancients on History Hit.
The Ancients
The Franks
Das ist interessant. Es gibt keine großen Events oder Kriege, die wir während seines Reiches kennen, aber er ist immer noch eine wichtige Figur. Es ist interessant, dass du diesen romänischen General bezeichnest.
The Ancients
The Franks
Also für den Kontext, als das Frankische Königreich da ist und Childeric da ist, und es ist eine starke Entität, wie es sich an dieser Stelle anfühlt, ist das romane, was der Gaul war, krummelig. Es scheint sich zwischen diesen verschiedenen, können wir sagen, Krieger, die ihre eigenen kleinen Könige in dem, was damals der romane Gaul war, zu dividieren.
The Ancients
The Franks
Es ist interessant und man hört auch von Childrich, wie du sagst, die Einfluss von seiner Zeit in Byzantien und Konstantinopel.
The Ancients
The Franks
I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and today we're covering the story of the Franks, a Germanic people who forged one of the most successful kingdoms in Western Europe following the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Nun, wenn jemand die Franken erwähnt, könnte man sofort denken, dass der titanische Name Charlemagne ist. Und du hast recht.
The Ancients
The Franks
This is so interesting, and we actually mentioned this earlier, Die militärische Frage, bevor wir zu Clovis kommen. Am Anfang unseres Chats sagte jemand, dass die Franks, wenn sie in der Welt wohnen, eine der Spezialunits seien. Diese Waffe-Führer und die Idee, dass die Waffe eine wirklich große Waffe für die Franks ist. Aber ist das tatsächlich der Fall?
The Ancients
The Franks
Der Speer ist eine große Waffe in Germania, ist er nicht? Nun gehen wir von Childeric weiter. Childeric stirbt.
The Ancients
The Franks
Aber er ist ein bisschen zu medieval für unsere Lieben an den Ängsten. Vergiss Charlemagne, denk an französische Regierungen wie Childeric und Clovis. Dieser Episode wird sich auf den Wachstum der Franken unter den sogenannten Merovingian-Monarchen konzentrieren.
The Ancients
The Franks
Das ist fast so wie Eusebius mit Konstantin der Große und die Idee, dass er das Zeichen sieht.
The Ancients
The Franks
Richtig, ja. Also das ist nicht Alaric I., der berühmte, der Rom in 410 schlägt. Nein, nein, nein.
The Ancients
The Franks
Wir besuchen, wie sie die Romer, Burgundier, Visigoths und Alamans kämpften, um die Kontrolle über große Teile der heutigen Frankreichs zu kämpfen, als Roms Griff über Westeuropa schlug. Es ist ziemlich die Geschichte.
The Ancients
The Franks
Und sie sind aus Südwestfranz? Sie sind aus Südwestfranz. Sie sind in Aquitaine.
The Ancients
The Franks
Unser Gast heute ist der verehrte Dr. Ian Wood, Professor Emeritus of Early Medieval History at the University of Leeds and one of the leading experts on the early Franks and their rise to prominence. Auf dem Weg nach Norden für Weihnachten, ein paar Wochen hervorragend, habe ich an Ians wunderschönen Haus aufgehört, um dieses Interview mit ihm in Person zu recordieren.
The Ancients
The Franks
Ich glaube nicht, dass wir die Zeit haben, jede Geschichte durchzuführen, und es gibt viele. Aber lasst uns den ersten machen, denn das ist interessant. Du hast den Seagrius erwähnt, und ich habe meinen Noten, den Soissons. Und das ist auch, bevor wir konversiert haben. Das ist interessant.
The Ancients
The Franks
Was ist also diese frühe Geschichte, vor der Konversion, die wirklich Clovis auf der Karte setzt, die expandierende Frankische Macht, direkt am Anfang?
The Ancients
The Franks
Es war ein brillanter Chat und Ians leitende Expertise auf diesem Bereich der alten Geschichte scheint wirklich durch. Ich hoffe, ihr genießt es. Ian, es ist wundervoll, dich heute auf dem Podcast zu haben. Danke, dass du mich begrüßt hast.
The Ancients
The Franks
Können wir uns vorstellen, dass eine römische-gestylt-Armee, obwohl sie größtenteils Speer ist, gegen andere römische-gestylt-Armees kämpft, oder wissen wir, was wir mit diesen Klatschen erwarten sollten?
The Ancients
The Franks
Ja, ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, dass Clovis Frankreich mit 32 Männern kämpft.
The Ancients
The Franks
Wenn wir zum Ende von Clovis' Reich kommen, also der Befehl von Seagrius, dann der Befehl von den Alamans, den Visigoths, den Burgundians, wie groß ist jetzt das Frankische Königreich?
The Ancients
The Franks
Ich habe nur ein paar weitere Fragen, aber ich frage, weil du dort Paris erwähnt hast, aber ist es in dieser Zeit mit den Franken, dass Paris wirklich mehr bedeutend wird? Ist es bereits wichtig oder wird es später noch wichtiger werden? Es ist kein wirklich großes romantisches Zentrum.
The Ancients
The Franks
Du hast vorhin schon erwähnt, wie diese Erweiterung wieder beginnt. Es gibt ein bisschen Schwierigkeiten, wenn es sich verteilt, aber dann mit den Visigothen und allem anderen. Aber was ist die Sparke, die uns wieder einmal zu den Franks, den Vierten, führt? Ich weiß, dass du letztendlich Charlemagne bekommst und das heute ein bisschen zu viel Geschichte für uns zu besprechen fühlt.
The Ancients
The Franks
Aber was passiert, wenn der 6. Jahrhundert weitergeht und du wirklich das Zenith der Merovingianer bekommst?
The Ancients
The Franks
Ich muss sagen, wenn man das von außen anschaut, wenn jemand die Franken erwähnt, könnte man sofort in den medievalen Zeitpunkt gehen. Das ist wahrscheinlich korrekt, aber dann Namen wie Charlemagne und die Carolingianen.
The Ancients
The Franks
Aber wir haben gerade nicht Charlemagne erreicht und lernen mehr über Figuren wie Childeric und Clovis und das immediate Nachhinein der romanischen Empire im Westen, aber auch ihre Einwohnung. mit den anderen Menschen, mit den Erfolgern der Romanen. Es ist wirklich interessant. Es ist ein faszinierender Zeitpunkt.
The Ancients
The Franks
Die Geschichte ist fast wie der Wachstum der Franken, der frühen Franken, die Figuren wie die Merovingianer. Es ist eine faszinierende Geschichte, die Literatur, die Biasen für die literarischen Ressourcen, die wir haben, die wir überleben, und diese unglaublichen Archäologien, die wir überleben, auch. Was für ein Bereich, um zu studieren.
The Ancients
The Franks
Es gibt so viel zu erzählen. Wir haben uns eine faszinierende Vorstellung und Überblick der Franks gegeben und wie sie auf der Bühne aufstehen mit Figuren wie Childrich, Clovis und seinen vielen Söhnen. Das war fantastisch. Du hast vor dir ein paar deiner Bücher, die du auf dem Thema geschrieben hast. Ich glaube, es wäre ein Missbrauch, wenn wir sie nicht nennen würden.
The Ancients
The Franks
Well, there must have books for anyone wanting to learn more about the post-Western Roman Empire, the Franks, the Merovingian Kingdoms and so on. Ian, this has been absolutely brilliant chat. Once again, thank you so much for inviting me here to your living room in your house. And it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Franks
Vielen Dank fürs Zuhören. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. And don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits Podcasts at free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Franks
Wow, und das geht ein bisschen weiter, als ich denke, wir werden es heute beantworten.
The Ancients
The Franks
Nun, Sie haben das geografische Bereich, Nordwesten, Mainland, Europa, gehint. Aber die erste große Frage ist auch, wer waren die Franks? Was wissen wir, woher sie kamen?
The Ancients
The Franks
Also der Südküste des Kanadens, also das ist normalerweise Nordfranz. Wir sprechen über Normandie, das Gebiet.
The Ancients
The Franks
Interessant. Also Belgien, denken wir, ist das der Hauptplatz, der zentrale Fokus?
The Ancients
The Franks
Es ist fast eine Konfederation. Ist das eine der Ideen? Es ist eine germanische Konfederation.
The Ancients
The Franks
Bevor wir in ihre Verhältnisse mit dem westlichen romänischen Empire, deren Truppen und so weiter betrachten, muss ich fragen. Das sind also die Ursprünge, die wir mit den anderen jamanischen Staaten in der modernen Belgien-Ära glauben. Als die Franken später sehr erfolgreich geworden sind, beginnen sie auch, ihre eigenen Glauben an ihre Ursprünge zu verwenden, fast mythische Ursprünge.
The Ancients
The Franks
Es ist interessant, dass du den Historiker Fredegar erwähnt hast. Es war interessant, dass ich mit Dr. David Gwynne über die Gothen früher dieses Jahres gesprochen habe. Er hat erwähnt, dass die Gothen eine der wichtigen Sourcen für das Erlernen ihrer ursprünglichen Geschichte sind. Das ist der gothische Historiker, der Giordanes geschrieben hat, nicht wahr? Er hat viel davon geschrieben.
The Ancients
The Franks
Gibt es irgendeine Äquivalente für die französischen Ursprüngen, die wir haben, die überleben? Sind sie principal römische Sourcen, die wir für die französischen Ursprüngen haben?
The Ancients
The Franks
Ich würde sagen, dass die Franks hier verabschiedet wurden von ihren Interaktionen mit den Franks.
The Ancients
The Franks
Es ist 486 AD. Das westliche Römer-Empire hat sich komplett verbreitet. In Gaul, der heutige Frankreich, ist das Territorium zwischen Visigoths, Burgundiern, Bretons und einem römerischen Rumpfstaat genannt, das Königreich von Soissons. Das Königreich war eine Figur namens Seagrius. Aber jetzt ist Seagrius' Regierung unter Bedrohung. Sein kräftiger Nachbar im Osten hat ihn zum Kampf gebracht.
The Ancients
The Franks
Wenn man auf Wikipedia oder in Schildrich googelt, ist das eine der ersten Sachen, die aufkommen. Das Bild des Ringes von Schildrich. Und ich denke, wir werden da hinbekommen. Ich meine, um es chronologisch zu machen, sollen wir jetzt von den ersten Geschichten der Franken gehen?
The Ancients
The Franks
Also du sagst, nahe der Rhine, diese Art von Konfederation der germanischen Bevölkerung und Namen, die ich vor Jahrhunderten mit Arminius, der Bruckterrier und so weiter erkenne. Was wissen wir von den Franken und ihren Verhältnissen mit dem römischen Empire? Vor dem Zeitpunkt des Westen des römischen Empires, vor dem Zeitpunkt von Childrich.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
There seems to be a bit more toleration at that time, doesn't it? I remember interviewing Professor David Potter, and he was saying how With Constantine, it almost seemed like he was hedging his divine bets at times. Patronage to Christians, but also building temples and churches. So doing both things at hand. But as time goes on, as you say, that endures.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So by the time we get to 325 AD, does he feel responsibility? Is he the one who calls the council together? What do we know about that?
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So is it a case then that Constantine hears that there are these divisions emerging in the Christian church and he's worried about dissent, about trouble within the empire if it's not sorted? Yeah, that's right. That's it. So
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
1700 years ago, an unprecedented council of early Christian bishops gathered at Nicaea, not far from present-day Istanbul. The council had been convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine to address a theological dispute, a schism amongst early Christians that threatened to explode across the empire. Constantine wanted it sorted.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Staffith, before we explore the Council of Nicaea, I hope you don't mind if we delve into a bit more detail about what Arius and Alexander were disagreeing about and really get that sorted for us so we can nail that down. And also, I guess, first of all, why it's happening in Alexandria. You mentioned there's a patriarch of Alexandria.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So set the scene of Alexandria at this time in Egypt and the strength of Christianity there. And then why What is the root of this disagreement that erupts between Arius on one side and Alexander on the other?
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
At the centre of the council was the issue of homoousion, this idea that the Father, God, the Son, who would be Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were all equal. The two figureheads on opposing sides of this dispute were Alexander, the Bishop of Alexandria on one side, and Arius, a member of the clergy on the other.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So that allows Ares to solve that problem. So the Son is Jesus, is it? This idea that Jesus wasn't there at the beginning, but he's created by God for his mission on earth and that's...
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So that is Arius' position. So how does that differ then from Alexander's? Yeah, okay.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Well, let's now move on to the debate. You've already highlighted how this explodes out of Alexandria. It reaches the Emperor Constantine and he starts getting worried that it will affect concord and harmony in the empire. So the creating of this council, and as you've also highlighted, this feels unprecedented. It doesn't feel like this has happened before, has it?
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
When the council is called and the people get together, what should we be imagining at Nicaea? What should we be imagining with this council and how it looks?
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Arius had the idea that there was almost this divine hierarchy, that the Son was subordinate to the Father. Alexander and his followers believed that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were of equal weight and shared the same divine substance. This dispute was the so-called Arian Controversy. The bishops had gathered at Nicaea to determine which was the correct doctrine and which was heresy.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
And is this all written down then, if it was important to then cover this, in the Nicene Creed? Because what is this? And is this almost, as you say, the kind of the confirmation written down of what they've agreed? That's right.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So the Council of Nicaea, they ultimately come up with the Nicene Creed and the understanding of homoousion and being three different parts. Is there anything else, Big, that we haven't covered that is achieved at the Council of Nicaea alongside the Nicene Creed and the condemning of Arianism or of what Arius believes is heresy?
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Their decision remains central to Christianity even today. It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Joining me to explain the Council of Nicaea and why this ecumenical council was one of the most important events of early Christianity, I was delighted to interview Dr. Dafydd Daniel, a lecturer in divinity at the University of St. Andrews.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
It does seem as if it's an important moment in the changing relationship between the church and the state, doesn't it? And especially with the Emperor Constantine's presence as well as an overarching figure. I mean, Dafydd, this has been brilliant, but just to wrap it up, with the aftermath. So Arianism, it doesn't disappear after the council.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
We delve into the fascinating details of this early Christian theological dispute, and I really do hope you enjoy. Dafydd, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Well, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So equality in the Trinity and homoousion, you can trace its roots back to the debate between Arius and Alexander, the Council of Nicaea, and ultimately the split between East and West. It just continues throughout. I mean, Dafydd, this has been absolutely, well, it's been really, really interesting to learn all about this. And there's a lot of
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
And it's a special anniversary, it feels, this year, because 2025, it's the 1700th anniversary of one of the most pivotal moments in Christian history, the Council of Nicaea. But this isn't just a dry theological debate. It's got power, politics, intense religious rivalry, all set against the backdrop of the Roman Empire's first Christian emperor, Constantine the Great.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
deep theological debate as well to get through but I think we succeeded in covering all the main points as well Dafydd it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast and explain this big anniversary in Christian history okay well thanks very much a really great pleasure to have been here Well, there you go.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
There was Dr. Dafydd Daniel explaining the First Council of Nicaea that occurred 1,700 years ago, exploring key parts of the story such as the Arian Controversy, the issue of Homoousion, and of course, the Nicene Creed. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you leave us a rating as well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So with that established, let's start with the basics. For listeners who might not be familiar with early Christianity, what was the Council of Nicaea and why does it still matter so much today?
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Is it quite a definitive line that either you go the way that is agreed and that's orthodox, or if you don't and anything else is seen as heresy?
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Well, we're going to be exploring all of that in detail. But Dafydd, at the beginning, as we kind of explore the background, you also mentioned in passing a figure called Eusebius of Caesarea. Do we have many literary sources for this event in this time in history?
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Well, let's explore the context as to why this council is happening in 325 AD. Big question, Dafydd. What is happening in the Roman Empire and the Church in those years running up to 325? Yeah, okay, so...
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
So already in those immediate decades before the Council of Nicaea and before we get to the figure of Arius, there are other figures as you've highlighted there, the Donatists and so on, which are almost a symbol of what's to come. There are divisions emerging, maybe catalyzed by these persecutions that have happened in recent history.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
There are divisions in how people are viewing Christianity and how they should approach it.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
You know, sort of thing. Yes, he's like, don't go looking for the Christians, but if they do, you can execute them, or something like that.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
They've got a very interesting relationship with the Christians early on. It seems like in regards to the events of the Roman Empire up to the Nicene Creed, some key events and things to highlight. As you have highlighted already, Dafydd, at the end of the 3rd century crisis, the Emperor Diocletian comes along, creates the rule of four, the Tetrarchy.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
Those two senior emperors and those two junior emperors seem to work for a period of time. But then after Diocletian goes, the next successor is Constantius Chlorus. He dies early on. His son Constantine is proclaimed emperor in 306.
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
And very quickly, it all starts falling apart and you get those civil wars like Constantine versus Maxentius and so on, ultimately leading to Constantine ditching the Tetrarchy completely and becoming a sole emperor again by the time we get to the Council of Nicaea. So let's focus on Constantine's career a bit to get more context into his...
The Ancients
The Council of Nicaea
adoption or his relationship with christianity by that time because it seems it's been 13 years or so hasn't it by 325 and his the beginning of his relationship with christianity i feel this is where we probably want to explore the milvian bridge and why that's important
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
And so what happens next? So the young Julius Caesar has been given this office by the ally of Marius, Marius who's now dead, Cinna. But it doesn't feel like Julius Caesar, he's in that office for long because you mentioned Sulla there, didn't you, Catherine?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
And he's an enemy in the east. He's king of Pontus, isn't he, though?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
He's one of the most recognisable figures from ancient history. Gaius Julius Caesar, dictator of Rome, who was assassinated on the 15th of March, the Ides of March, in 44 BC. Now, the later story of Julius Caesar and his grand military campaigns against barbarians and fellow Romans alike, well, it's a popular one today. But what do we know about his earlier life?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Yes, just at that time, if Caesar's still quite a young person, does he have many interactions with Sulla? Do we know much about that relationship given that Sulla at that time, he's dictator of Rome, isn't he? So he's the leading figure now.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Before he went to Gaul and waged brutal warfare against various tribes for years on end, before he crossed the Rubicon and defeated the likes of Pompey the Great, ultimately becoming dictator of Rome, before he met his legendary lover, the Egyptian Queen Cleopatra. Well, that is what we're exploring today. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
But this is the next part of his story, isn't it? So he's not in Rome at this time. He's in the Eastern Mediterranean and he does a variety of different things whilst he is in the Eastern Mediterranean. And there are a few stories that become repeated and repeated and repeated again about Caesar at this time, aren't there?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Kevin, it's an interesting story, those kind of first 30 years of Caesar's story. You've talked about that relationship with Marius and then Cinna and then Sulla, then leaving Rome. And yet there's various ventures, as you say, in the Eastern Mediterranean, Siege of Mytilene, captured by pirates. When exactly that happens, I think there's some debate.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
So when he goes back to Rome, let's say around 70 BC, so he's 30 years old by this time. He's seen quite a lot. He's done quite a lot. What position is he in at that time as we get into the beginning of the 60s and he's seen all this in his life? Is it now kind of climbing the greasy pole, the political ladder? What's his situation, let's say, 70 BC?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
And Sulu's gone by this point, hasn't he? He's out of the picture yet.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Over the next hour, we're going to talk through the rise of Julius Caesar, from his early years growing up in a prestigious yet rather backstage Roman family, to his capture by pirates in his early 20s, to how he started climbing up the greasy political ladder of the Roman Republic that was the Cursus Honora.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
This is a story that features a lot of events and a lot of big names from this era of Roman history. The bitter rival Roman statesmen, Marius and Sulla first of all. Then leading lights such as the stellar general, Pompey the Great and Crassus, wealthiest man in Rome. There's also the great orators, Cicero and Cato the Younger.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Yes, exactly. I mean, Julius Caesar up to that time, although yes, he's been in the Eastern Mediterranean, he's sorted as stronghold and been captured by pirates in these stories, compared to these other figures at the time, Crassus and Pompey, it's nothing near the same level. And he sees that, yeah.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
I'm loving this. I'm loving this, Catherine. Actually, just before we go on to that and how it kind of progresses, I mean, this political ladder, you mentioned how Crassus and Pompey, so they're the consuls and Caesar's looking up almost from several rungs down as the Quaestor. This whole process, it's called the Cursus Honorum, isn't it?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
So, I mean, could you explain just very briefly what we mean by the Cursus Honorum?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
So he's in Cuista before that, the rank below in 70 BC. And is it that time when he's in that position or just after that story you mentioned right at the start, seeing the statue of Alexander the Great? Caesar's in his early 30s. Alexander died at 32. And if Caesar thinks he's a similar age and he's got nothing similar to that of standing.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
But then coming back and getting the aedile, the next rank in 65, as you mentioned there. I mean, does he outdo Bibulus just because he spends more money? I mean, it feels like money must be such a big thing for these people. patricians if they're trying to climb the greasy pole, especially if you're holding public events.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
All feature in the story of Caesar's rise to prominence in the space of some 40 years. Now, our guest today is Professor Catherine Steele from the University of Glasgow, an expert on politics in the late Roman Republic and key figures of the time like Cicero, Pompey and, of course, Julius Caesar. Buckle up, lots of interesting information coming your way as we explore the rise of Julius Caesar.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
I mean, yeah, great stories. Does it also then emphasise, and I feel this kind of also goes back to our story when we talked about the rise of Cicero. I think earlier on in Julius Caesar, he goes back to Rome for a bit, either just after or before he's taken by pirates when he goes back to Eastern Mediterranean, that he's a lawyer for a bit.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
And maybe on his way back to Eastern Mediterranean earlier, he's going to the island of Rhodes where there's a big rhetoric school, if I'm correct. Is that the other thing that is very, very important and we should also be consider when Caesar's
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
rising and he's getting these different positions like the ideal ship and others at that time would also need that skill, which is the skill of giving speeches of rhetoric. Is that right at the centre of it?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Catherine, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. It's been a few years. Welcome back.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
So we've covered kind of quaestorship and idealship. So we get down to around 63 BC, Catherine. Now, why is this year so important in the story of Caesar's rise, kind of getting more to the fore?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Oh, you're more than welcome. And of course, to talk about this period of late Republican Roman history that I know you've done so much work around. The rise of Julius Caesar, I was originally going to say is quite an extraordinary story, isn't it? But is it extraordinary at the time, at least I guess in the early years compared to other big figures at that time?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
So he not only has quite a high role now up the Cursus Honorum with the praetorship, but he's also head of the religious sphere as well as Pontifex Maximus. So he's holding both those positions at the same time. That's quite something.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
So although Caesar is on the side of the debate that loses, is he in a stronger position because of what he's done regardless? Yeah.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Catherine, I wish I had time to ask so many more questions about this, but as we've got to kind of 6261, almost kind of to wrap it up, because it feels like the consulship, I guess at the time, feels like he's risen to the highest position, doesn't he? So if we finish the rise of Julius Caesar with him attaining the consulship, what are his next moves to get to there in 62 BC?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Is it quite quick for him to get to the highest position in the land?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Catherine, it's been a fantastic chat. I mean, so many details. And also you've highlighted how, yes, although there are oddities in his earlier life, in his earlier rise, it's only actually quite late on in the story before he becomes consulship that he almost rises to the fore or becomes a bit more extraordinary.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
I didn't realise that as much as I do now, that actually sometimes Julius Caesar's early, early, early story, those oddities are put to the fore in contrast actually to the majority of it, which is very similar to any other patrician at the time.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Catherine, this has been fantastic. Such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. And it just goes for me to say thank you for coming back on today.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Well, there you go. There was Professor Catherine Steele talking through the rise of Julius Caesar and his many stories until he attained the consulship in 59 BC. In the meantime, if you'd like more from Catherine, well, Catherine has featured on the podcast once before where she talked through the rise of Cicero. You can find that episode in our Ancients archive.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
So that year 63 BC, it almost feels like, Catherine, that'll be a bit later on in our chat, because if he's born in around 100 BC, so actually that time when it kind of almost feels like a bit of a switch, he's nearly 40 at that time.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Now don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancienstristan. Now that's enough from me, and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Well, we'll explore those oddities too. And you also mentioned Alexander in passing, and I'm presuming then you mean Alexander the Great.
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
Well, Catherine, for the story of Julius Caesar as he's rising through the ranks, let's say even pre-63 BC, the earlier part of Julius Caesar's story, do we have a rich source record surviving for learning more about it and what were the oddities and what was the regular for the time? Is it quite a rich period for source material?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
So not that much material for his very, very early years. But do we know much of the state of the Roman Republic around the turn of the first century BC? Do we know the state of the world that he's born into and that he's growing up in, in those very early years?
The Ancients
Rise of Julius Caesar
If Caesar's father dies when Caesar is very, very young, how does that affect when he is in his teenage years and he's got Marius close by him as linked to his own family? With all of that going on, is Julius Caesar now having to step up very, very early with his father's passing and almost go quickly into an alliance with Marius in that very turbulent early 1st century BCE world?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
People can deduce that from the surviving DNA or from the surviving remains?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
There's this Neanderthal world that's existing some 60,000 years ago. Let's introduce our other main protagonist into this story, protagonist species. Chris, when do we start to see Homo sapiens emerging onto the Neanderthal scene?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
One that would come into direct contact and potentially conflict with Neanderthals. Homo sapiens. Us. It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're continuing our Ice Age mini-series this February by exploring the enigmatic story of the last Neanderthals and why they ultimately went extinct. This is a really exciting field.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
But this is also important to highlight, isn't it, Chris, that with the kind of focal area of Neanderthals that we think of with Eurasia, Europe and so on, and the focal point for the evolution and emergence of Homo sapiens. These were two completely different areas of the world, so for much of the time they were separate from each other.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
It is also really interesting, just quickly, this idea that maybe Neanderthals, when they were at their peak and had a lot of genetic diversity, living in all these various different landscapes, if earlier on, some Neanderthals had actually made it to Africa and met earlier Homo sapiens. That's fascinating to consider. I know it's not proven, but still quite interesting to think about.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Over the past few years, new information has come to light thanks to a mix of archaeological and DNA research, revealing how late Neanderthals and Homo sapiens interbred some 50,000 years ago. Many of us in the world today have Neanderthal DNA in our genomes. Yet the Neanderthals themselves soon went extinct.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Just so you can also describe to us now, Chris, as you're here, so the differences in bodily structure between a Neanderthal, a late Neanderthal, and a Homo sapien going out of Africa, let's say 60,000 years ago, what were the key differences in their structure?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Many reasons have been put forward as to why this occurred, closely linked with the arrival of modern humans in their territories. to talk through the possibilities. I was delighted to interview Professor Chris Stringer from the Natural History Museum. Chris is one of the leading lights in the field of human evolution.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
So the toolkit for the Homo sapiens, as you've highlighted there, Chris, different lifestyle, different use of technology, presumably with Homo sapiens. So when they are moving into Neanderthal territory, would they also be bringing in their small groups, their own technologies, their own toolkit with them?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Are there any key archaeological sites that highlight these Homo sapiens with the big, successful dispersal out of Africa some 60,000 years ago? Are there any key sites that show them finally reaching Neanderthal territories in Europe?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
He has also been on the podcast several times before to talk about all things varying from the origins of Homo sapiens to the first Britons to the mysterious story of a massive cranium discovered in China called Dragon Man. Now he's back to explain the story of the last Neanderthals. Enjoy. Chris, as always, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
But that's interesting also to highlight. It is not just Homo sapiens arrive, Neanderthals disappear straight away. It's several thousand years that all of this is happening in Western Europe as a good example.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
But it must also be fascinating for you and others, and just me thinking about it, to consider those first meeting points some 60,000 or 50,000 years ago between groups of Homo sapiens and groups of Neanderthals already living in their isolated areas across Eurasia. And I'm guessing... the variety of responses there must have been.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
It's not all the same everywhere that these first meeting points happen. Maybe there's cooperation or there's conflict straight away. The language barrier. This is fascinating to think when these two types of humans meet.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Now, you're a very modest man, but you are one of, if not the oracle when it comes to Neanderthals. You've been in this field of research for decades, so very, very grateful for your time. And to talk about this particular part of the Neanderthal story, one which still feels very mysterious, yet one where there's a lot of research going into at the moment.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
I was going to ask that. I mean, when they are ultimately sharing that same environment, even if they are peaceful, is that competition for economic resources, is it ultimately inevitable and one group will ultimately suffer more than the other?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Chris, what I also found so interesting there is amongst all of those things that potentially they were competing for would be the best cave sites. And I'm guessing, maybe not a limited number, but the best sites would have already been identified by Neanderthals. So could you imagine cave sites being a key area, either where there was competition or there were meetings between these two?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
So let's talk about interbreeding because this is the other amazing facet of research regarding this cooperation. between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals when they start meeting each other. So what is this amazing research that has emerged, revealing this mixing between the two species?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
And how rich a record do people like yourself and scientists have for wanting to try and learn more about why they ultimately disappear?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
And that's interesting. So us today, you, me, in this room, we have Neanderthal DNA in our blood, in our body.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
But Chris, it's also so interesting because if it is not just conflict and competition for resources, but as the science proves, there's evidently mixing and cooperation between Neanderthal groups and Homo sapiens when they're arriving. Why, ultimately then, do Neanderthals lose out in this interbreeding, in this cooperation element with early Homo sapiens?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
So it seems that the interbreeding is more successful within Homo sapiens groups than within Neanderthal groups. And do we think that is just like, could there also be a physical bodily structure reason for that too?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
So do you think that the arrival of Homo sapiens on the scene is either the catalyst or the cause for the extinction of Neanderthals?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
But on the flip side, maybe certain groups, Homo sapiens, could they have been bringing diseases with them from Africa that Neanderthal groups who they encountered and maybe were cooperating with, but as a side effect, they were more vulnerable to those diseases?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
So let's go to the end. And you mentioned Gibraltar earlier, and I'd like to revisit Gibraltar now. So roughly 40,000 years ago, the Neanderthals have either gone on their very, very last legs. But geographically, topographically, Gibraltar, you know, this great rock, this fortress at the southern toe of the Iberian Peninsula, overlooking
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
the entrance into the Mediterranean from the Atlantic Ocean. As a story, people love this idea of Gibraltar as this stronghold, maybe like that last enclave for Neanderthals before they go extinct. How credible is this and what information is there for Neanderthals in Gibraltar at this late stage?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
I will ask about Britain, last of all. I mean, do we have much evidence for the last Neanderthals in Britain from the archaeological records?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Chris, this has been absolutely fantastic. Is there anything else you'd like to mention before we wrap up about the last Neanderthals and this facet of Neanderthal history?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Well, there was Professor Chris Stringer, Oracle of Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens Studies, explaining all about the last Neanderthals. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
The fourth and final episode of our Ice Age series will be out next Sunday, Saturday for those of you who are subscribers, where we will explore the end of the Ice Age, the Big Melt, but also this unusual period where the climate started getting colder again, known as as the younger Dryas. That episode will be coming next weekend.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
In the meantime, please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
I mean, it's so interesting, Chris, because I remember chatting to your colleague, Adrian Lister, and also David Meltzer about the woolly mammoth and that DNA evidence for these great beasts of the Ice Age as well. And it seems similar with Neanderthals in the fact that there must be so much DNA out there from... pee, from poo, from where they ate and stuff.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
So much more to gain to learn about them from just doing more studies of those sites that we know Neanderthals were once in.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
So you mentioned 60,000 years ago, Neanderthals, they occupied this huge geographic range stretching from modern-day Europe all the way to Eastern Asia. So were there almost different lineages of Neanderthals by that time? So you have Neanderthal as that wide-reaching name, but almost, is it subspecies beneath?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
And those last 20,000 years, do you mean between 60,000 and 40,000 years ago when you have that last evidence for Neanderthals in the world?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Is it fair to say that even by 60,000 years ago, Neanderthals, having already been around in the world for hundreds of thousands of years, have they already passed their peak at that time in terms of numbers across the world?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Chris, can you please explain why genetic diversity and studying it is so important for understanding whether species like Neanderthals are successful, they're enduring well, or they are starting to decline?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
It's 55,000 years ago. For hundreds of thousands of years, Neanderthals have roamed the lands of what is today Europe and Western Asia. Over that time, they've been able to survive and thrive in a whole host of different climates and environments, stretching from the coasts of Iberia and southern Britain to Iraq and western Asia and even Siberia.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
Let's talk about the intelligence and the lifestyle of these Neanderthals before we move on to the arrival of Homo sapiens and that impact on the Neanderthal numbers. First of all, the toolkit.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
When we think of ancient human species alongside Homo sapiens, we think of things varying from very simple stone tools all the way back in the Oldowan with very early human species to the hand axe of Homo erectus. With the Neanderthals and the late Neanderthals, how complex is their toolkit by then?
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
And it's actually like resin or something like that, some sort of natural glue.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
They lived in caves, these natural places of shelter. They carved effective tools out of wood, ancillar, bone and stone. They made art. They lit fires. They had their own methods of communication, although what they were, we don't know. And yet, 55,000 years ago, this was a species in decline. And what's more, a new species was about to emerge onto the scene.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
And should we then imagine you've got these small groups of Neanderthals, some living by the coast, others hunting mammoth or living further inland, They've adapted even with this low genetic diversity. They are still in pockets across Eurasia, surviving off different foods and drink and so on and so forth.
The Ancients
The Last Neanderthals
But at the same time, there must be communication, maybe behavioural activities like burial as well. These are intelligent but isolated small communities throughout this geographic landmass.
The Ancients
The Thracians
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Thracians
Of course, because you do start to see all those Greek cities and colonies starting to be constructed, as you say, along the Aegean, Bosphorus and into the Black Sea. So there'll be interactions with the local people, with the Thracians, and hence how they become such an interesting part of Greek thought for some Greek writers, as you've mentioned earlier, Zosia.
The Ancients
The Thracians
You mentioned before recording how you thought that there might be one aspect of Thracian society that people might think of straight away. I think I know what you're talking about because I played Rome Total War growing up and it seemed to come up quite a lot then. Did the Greeks perceive the Thracians as being very warlike?
The Ancients
The Thracians
Indeed, the Thracians are linked to many of the biggest names from Greek and Roman history. Spartacus, the world's most famous gladiator who led a revolt against the Romans, well, he was a Thracian. Now, the Thracians are an extraordinary ancient people, often overlooked compared to the Greeks and Romans. And yet, archaeology is revealing a lot about them and how they lived.
The Ancients
The Thracians
But it's interesting, isn't it? You said that portrayal of the Thracians as warlike, as you say, it's just actually that portrayal that has come down to us is the taking of a few small mentions in sources, like I think one calls them having hearts of Ares and stuff like that. But keeping on that mercenaries vibe,
The Ancients
The Thracians
Is there clearly times when the Thracians, certain Thracians do go out and serve as mercenaries? And I think of lightly armed javelin men like a felt cap, or in some cases you hear of some wielding this large kind of curved sword polearm kind of thing, which seems to be such a powerful image, at least in my brain.
The Ancients
The Thracians
Today, we're going to shine the ancient spotlight on the Thracians and give you a taster of just how interesting they are. Our guest today is Dr. Zosia Archbold, Senior Lecturer at the University of Liverpool and an expert on the Thracians and their archaeology.
The Ancients
The Thracians
But I mean, do you hear cases at least of Thracian warriors going out and fighting in the world, I guess, as mercenaries?
The Ancients
The Thracians
We cover everything from Thracian expertise as cavalrymen and the strange weapons some of them wielded, like this large bladed weapon called the bonfire, to great archaeological treasures of Thrace, such the Panagirishti treasure and the remarkable bronze statue head of a powerful ruler called Suthes III. There's a lot to talk about, so let's get into this long-awaited episode.
The Ancients
The Thracians
And I guess also that position, the position of Thrace, isn't it? You have to the north, the Great Steppe and the Scythians. And you mentioned the Sarmatians as well, these great horse riders, the Greeks to the south, Persians and Asia to the east. You can see that influence from all of those cultures. And with the landscape, the political landscape, Zosia, you've mentioned before various kings.
The Ancients
The Thracians
It doesn't seem to be this one Thracian people. They're divided up between various kings. smaller powers, entities in that region. But was there ever a time where Thrace, were there particular peoples who were more powerful in the region that could have potentially have united Thrace into, I guess, one political identity?
The Ancients
The Thracians
Well, it is such an exciting topic and one that has topped a couple of our recent polls, the so-called Thracians. Now, Zosia, to start it all off, a big question, who were the Thracians?
The Ancients
The Thracians
Given its size and its strength and its duration, how important and significant does the Adrysian Kingdom become over that next century or so where you see Alexander the Great ultimately coming to power in nearby Macedonia, the fall of the Persian Empire? I mean, the Adrysian Kingdom witnessing all of these things, its rulers witnessing all of these things.
The Ancients
The Thracians
How significant a player was this kingdom in in the political affairs, I guess, in the Mediterranean world affairs over that next couple of centuries from the Persian Wars onwards?
The Ancients
The Thracians
So we should imagine with this kingdom, there were these great kind of centres, almost kind of urban centres idea. That being one of them, I have in my notes, I'd love to talk about Seathopolis a bit later, which seems extraordinary. But like the archaeology from this period is revealing a lot about that whole structure and I guess kind of the wealth and riches of the Idrisian kingdom too.
The Ancients
The Thracians
I hope you don't mind. I would like to ask quickly about one particular set of objects discovered from Thrace, I think Adrysian Thrace, because they are extraordinary. And once again, I might butcher the name of it, but the Panagirishti treasure.
The Ancients
The Thracians
What an object this is. Type in the head of Seuthes III. It is extraordinary.
The Ancients
The Thracians
It is so interesting, and what a remarkable artefact that is, and it's lovely to hear that there's still more and more research going into it, because it is one of my favourite artefacts from antiquity. So thank you, Zosia, for mentioning the head of Seuthes III. I think we'll move on now to that last big part of this discussion, which is something you've already hinted at earlier.
The Ancients
The Thracians
You said that head was found at the entrance to a tomb. We can't talk about the Thracians and not talk about death and burial. What do we know about the Thracians and how they buried their dead, Zosia?
The Ancients
The Thracians
Are those the types of burials, the ones that survive like that? I mean, I have in my notes this extraordinary, the Thracian Valley of Kings, this Valley of the Roses today and names like Kazanluk and elaborate burials with wall paintings in and everything. The tombs that you have to examine today, Zosia, are they largely for the elite, for elite men and women?
The Ancients
The Thracians
Or I mean, do we know much about everyday burials in Thrace? Or is it just those great tumuli that are the ones that have survived?
The Ancients
The Thracians
I must ask quickly then about the Romans when they come to Thrace, because my mind will think of Spartacus, the slave, and saying that he was a Thracian, or with gladiators, that class of gladiator called a Thracian. Does Thrace remain important and its people remain important after the Romans take over?
The Ancients
The Thracians
Zosia, this has been a fantastic chat. We've covered lots of aspects of Thracian society and Thracian ancient history and big figures dotted in there from Rhesus, the king serving in the Trojan War, to Seuthes III, an extraordinary head, to finishing off with the Thracian gladiator Spartacus. I could ask so many more questions about this, but we have to wrap up now.
The Ancients
The Thracians
And it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
The Thracians
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Zosia Archibald giving you a taster, an overview of the story of the Thracians and their remarkable archaeology, and just how interesting this ancient culture is, often overshadowed by the likes of Greece and Rome. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
The Thracians
It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. We'll also put on Spotify a new poll for which overlooked civilization of the ancient world you would like us to cover next. Last time, the Thracians topped that poll. Let's see what tops the poll this time.
The Ancients
The Thracians
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Thracians
So many different things there that I'd love to delve into first before we then explore various aspects of Thracian society, archaeology, and so on. The first thing is, of course, you mentioned the Trojan War and Homer and Greek sources in Athens, the Aegean Sea, and so on.
The Ancients
The Thracians
So are Greek sources, ancient Greek writings, are they a key source of information for people like yourself researching the Thracians and that area of Thrace today? They seem to be fascinated by them.
The Ancients
The Thracians
The Thracians have this interesting relationship with the Greeks, and those inscriptions are interesting, aren't they, Zosia? I think I remember one where the Athenians are honouring a certain Thracian king who's aligned with them.
The Ancients
The Thracians
But as you say, those people on the edges of what they would see as the civilised world, and I stress what they would see on the edges of the Greek world, how to deal with them, are they a threat, can they be an ally, how that differs from time to time.
The Ancients
The Thracians
The whole home region of the Thracians, this area of Bulgaria today, was it a land in antiquity that was very suitable, that helps you understand why there was such a large population of people called Thracians who lived there at that time? Was it a rich area of the world?
The Ancients
The Thracians
It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and this is an episode that many of you have been clamouring for, both in recent polls that we've released on Spotify and in emails that you've sent to me. A regular request for an Ancients episode over the last year has been the Thracians. Now, I'm very excited to say that that is what we're covering today.
The Ancients
The Thracians
And did they get that from the mountain ranges? Because I've got in my notes something like the Rodope Mountains. I might completely mispronounce that. But were the mountain ranges where those rich minerals were extracted from?
The Ancients
The Thracians
Do we know much about the emergence of the Thracians? Does it go back to the second millennium BC? Is it a powerful place back then? I mean, what do we know about going that far back when talking about, shall we say, the early Thracians and who they were?
The Ancients
The Thracians
The Thracians were a culture that's lived in Eastern Europe, largely in what is today Bulgaria. We hear a lot about them from the ancient Greeks, with whom the Thracians had a lot of contact throughout ancient history. They feature in Greek mythology. They are mentioned in Homer's epic poem, the Iliad, with a particular Thracian king siding with the Trojans during the Trojan War.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Ich weiß, dass es schwierig ist, aber da es immer die Argumentation über die Trojaner-Wahl gibt, die eine Basis für Historie ist, über eine echte Trojaner-Wahl, glaubst du, dass es die Möglichkeit gibt, dass Cassandra, als diese wunderschöne Prinzessin von Troja, aufgrund einer echten Figur basiert?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're returning to ancient Greek mythology and one of the most well-known women from the Trojan War, Cassandra, the beautiful princess and tragic prophetess of Troy. Cassandra is remembered for foretelling the fall of Troy, but she was cursed by the god Apollo so that her prophecies would never be believed.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
So that influence, that evolution in the story of Cassandra as a prophet may well have been taken from this historical evidence that royal princesses did dabble in prophecy or prophecy was part of their almost job description that you have in this Bronze Age civilization that coexisted alongside the time of the historical Troy.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Wann wird das in der griechischen Literatur, die nach Homer beginnt, als Prophetin, als Priester, ausgeliehen? Ich habe in meinen Noten die Kypria, aber ich weiß nicht, ob das vor oder nach den Tragedien ist, die wir bereits erwähnt haben.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Emily, ich habe es nicht erkannt. Ich liebe diese Analyse des Box-Sets, übrigens. Es macht es wirklich einfach. Die Iliad und die Odyssee sind wie Captain America und Thor. Und dann hast du Kipria als WandaVision oder so etwas. Wie du sagst, sind sie alle Teil dieses Universums. Aber es ist interessant. Also habe ich in meinen Gedanken erst gedacht, dass die Kipria dann später kam.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Aber was du sagst, ist tatsächlich, dass es sich an einer ähnlichen Zeit entwickelt hat. zu der Iliad und der Odyssee. Es ist einfach weniger bekannt, weil sie das Leimlein verloren haben, weil es die beiden sind, die geschrieben wurden. Aber du hast immer noch überlebende Extrakte davon, um zu wissen, was gesagt wurde. Oder Epitome, glaube ich.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Die trojanische Prinzessin Kassandra ist fast sicherlich fiktional. Aber der Kontext ihres Charakters, diese Bronze-Zeit-Prinzessin, die auch eine Priesterin war, da ist es, wo Dinge interessanter werden. Emily, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Tristan. I'm delighted to be here. Und es ist immer Spaß, über Griechische Mythologie zu sprechen.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
And so, which particular plays are we talking about that mention Cassandra in them and what are they about?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Wow, okay, there you go. That was brilliant. I love that kind of historicity and that myth combining to tell stories like this. Well, let's go back to the story of Cassandra. You've highlighted those key sources we have for that, which give more to the character of Cassandra built upon from Homer. So what do these sources, what do they reveal about how Cassandra fares during the Trojan War?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
What are her die Hauptprophesien, die Hauptaktien, die sie vor dem ultimaten Tod von Troja bezeichnet.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Interessant. So Cassandra is closely entwined with arguably one of the most famous images from the Trojan War today, the Trojan Horse story. She is that lone voice like, don't do this, don't bring it in. You are absolute nutters for doing this. But as you say, part of her fate, no one listens to her.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Und diese bestimmte Figur, die wir auf Cassandra von der Trojan-Wahl fokussieren werden. Aber ich meine, Homer und seine Epiken, die Iliad und die Odyssee. Emily, die Charaktere und die Geschichten dieser Epiken und ihre Namen, die die Menschen wiederholen, nicht nur die Männer, sondern auch die Frauen.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Also, sie bringen den Trojan Horse in und Troy fällt. Und Cassandra ist eine Prinzessin. Was passiert ihr? Wie wird sie beeinflusst? Was sind die Geschichten um sie herum, wenn Troy letztendlich fällt und die Griechen starten zu pillieren, zu looten, sich für basically war booty, which can be in the form of high ranking women.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Da die frühere Beschreibung von Kassandra als der schönste von Priamens Töchtern steht, kann man verstehen, warum der Führer der griechischen Armee, Agamemnon, für Kassandra gegenüber einer geht. Vielleicht wurde sie als die wertvollste gesehen, als die leitende Prinzessin der Stadt.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Nun, wir müssen das andere Teil der Geschichte, das Cassandra in diesem Moment der Zeit beeinflusst, beobachten. Denn es fühlt sich wichtig an, dass die Events des Mythos, in diesem bestimmten Moment, was nächstes passiert. Was ist dieses berühmte Feind, das Cassandra bevorzugt, bevor sie von Agamemnon entfernt wird?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Let's keep going on with the story before exploring the character and the influences and the legacy of Cassandra and her figure. So what is that next part of Cassandra's story when she is taken away from Troy by Agamemnon? Because this is Cassandra leaving her homeland, as you say, maybe based on an Anatolian priestess slash prophetess and going to a foreign land, which is mainland Greece.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Ja, es ist keine Beweise von einer bestimmten Frau, die Kassandra von Troy nach Griechenland ging, sondern es ist Beweise von diesem historischen Kontext, dass Meissenhäuser den Anatolischen Kost oder was auch immer zerstörten und Leute zurückbrachten.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
So let's then go back to the story of Cassandra. What is the fate that befalls Cassandra in Mycenae?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Ich weiß, es ist eine Tragödie und sie endet in ihrem Tod, aber es ist ein schönes Ende für Cassandra in dieser Revenge-Ark-Story.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Es ist interessant, Emily. Alle diese Charaktere haben Fehler. Sie sind nicht die Leute, die man sein will. Aber glaubst du, dass das Fakt, dass sie keine Fehler haben, einer der Gründe ist, warum wir immer zurückgehen?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Und auch, wie du vorhin erwähnt hast, mit dem eigentlichen Beweis, das entdeckt wurde, ist es nicht zu weit gefasst, um sich zu vorstellen, dass vielleicht ein Trojaner-Kabinett oder ein Anatolianer-Kabinett in der Royal Palace in Mycenaeus, an einem Punkt in der late Bronze Age, wenn, wie du gesagt hast, sie zurückgebracht wurden, und ich denke, wenn sie ein hochpreisendes Kabinett waren, dann könnten sie vielleicht in der Royal Palace oder nahe an der Hand sein.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Just before we completely wrap up, going back to Cassandra and her prophecies. So Cassandra prophesying the destruction of her city, the death of her family, her brother, her father and so on, and then ultimately her own death. Is it quite interesting that all of her prophecies, they're never any small prophecies, they're all major apocalyptic prophecies of Cassandra.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
And do you think this was done on purpose? Does it reflect a wider trend of... die anderen Frauen, die göttlichen Mädchen, die Apokalyptische Dinge prophezieren können?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Letztendlich sprechen wir kurz über das Legacy und es fühlt sich so an, als ob es ein Podcast-Episode sein würde. Ich meine, die Geschichte von Cassandra dauert. Ich glaube, es gibt eine berühmte Fresco, die Cassandra zeigt, die von Ajax verlassen wurde.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Ich meine, die Geschichte von Cassandra schlägt auch mit den Romanen ein und sie dauert, wie viele der anderen wichtigen Figuren in der Iliad und, naja, in der Geschichte der Trojan-Wahl.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Well, Emily, this has been a fantastic chat. Is there anything that you'd like listeners to take away? I mean, is there a main message for Cassandra?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Share away. Mythica coming out in April, in Spring 2025. Emily, it just goes to me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for having me. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Und mit Homer's Epics, wie viele verschiedene Frauen sind in Homer's Epics, in seiner Version von der Trojan War und der Odyssee?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Sind diese Figuren wie Circe und Calypso, diese Namen, gut bekannte Namen?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Given the timeless nature of the texts, of the poems and they've endured down to the present day, do you think this has influenced the way that women have been written about throughout history, given the fact that the Iliad and the Odyssey, the story has always been there?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Darum, warum ich glaube, dass du und viele andere brillante Autoren in dieser Zeit in der Geschichte jetzt das Ganze ein bisschen ausbalancieren möchtest, indem du auch die Frauen in der Geschichte promotest. Ja, die Geschichten von Achilles und Ajax und Hector sind außergewöhnlich und sollten immer wieder erzählt werden.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Aber auch die Frauen, die Cassandra lieben, dass ihre Geschichte auch gehört werden sollte.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Sehr genau, und es ist wirklich interessant. Es ist interessant, dass du diese Paare hast, Achilles, Briseis, Hector, Andromache, Cassandra vielleicht und King Prime, ich weiß nicht, vielleicht ist das ein bisschen zu viel für Stretch, aber nochmals, du kannst sie fast zusammen verbinden, um ihre Charaktere weiter zu verstehen.
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Das ist dann der perfekte Zeitpunkt, um jetzt auf Kassandra zu konzentrieren. Emily, wie du vorhin erwähnt hast, ist Homer's Epic The Iliad nicht die ganze Trojan War. Es hat einen bestimmten Fokus auf Achilles, gegen Hector, Andromache und so weiter. Wie groß spielt Kassandra eine Rolle in The Iliad? Wie passt sie in die Geschichte?
The Ancients
Cassandra: Priestess of Troy
Ich weiß, dass du in deinem Buch sehr viel auf die echten Figuren der Frauen der griechischen Mythologie konzentriert bist.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Forgive my ignorance, but this is the time when bronze working is being discovered. So is it bronze weapons or is it still stone? Do we know much about that?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Okay, so how far and wide, I know it's debated and it's unclear, but at least for boasts of Sargon that emerge, how far do his conquests supposedly stretch?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
And yet, the real story of Sargon of Akkad remains steeped in mystery down to the present day. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And in today's episode, we're exploring the story of Sargon of Akkad, the founder and first ruler of the Akkadian Empire back in the 3rd millennium BC.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Und Paul, das fühlt sich, egal wie groß sein Wettbewerb ist, das fühlt sich unabhängig davon aus, wie weit er es erreicht hat. Aber wenn es unabhängig ist, und du hast es vorhin erwähnt, ist es auch ziemlich unstabil. Er hat diese Länder gewonnen, aber ist es sehr schnell, bevor Rebellionen ausgehen?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
So do we know much about Sagan if he's got these troublesome families in other city states? How does he go about kind of deciding to consolidate his control, his rule over this empire that he has created?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Und ist das für den Zeitraum eine Veränderung? Ich glaube, es ist nicht die lingua franca, ist es? Aber das zu machen, das ist die Hauptsprache seines Empires. But of course, is this the first time this is done?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
So this also feels really significant if he's also just implanting on these other places, right, the main bureaucratic figures, you've now got to learn this language and do writing this way kind of thing.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
To talk through his life and the evidence we have surviving for him, I was delighted to interview a good friend of mine and an esteemed Assyriologist, who has been on the podcast several times over the past few years, covering everything from the Sumerians to Uruk to Nineveh.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Well, we'll get to that in a moment, but let's then keep on Sagan for a bit and not jump the gun. My apologies there for kickstarting that. But I'd like to ask a bit more about Sagan's new capital, Akkad or Agade. I mean, do we know much about this new capital?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Das ist ein bisschen eine Tangente, aber ich denke immer noch, dass es sehr interessant ist. Für mich selbst, Paul, kommt man in Mesopotamien von außen. Original hätte ich Namen wie Nineveh, Babylon, vielleicht auch Susa gehört. Aber Sie haben Namen wie Kish, Lagash, Uruk erwähnt. Ich habe nicht gemerkt, wie viele außergewöhnliche Städte es in der alten Mesopotamien gab. Ist Agade eine Anomalie?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Wissen Archäologen, wo die meisten der Städte, die von Mesopotamien erwähnt wurden, heute sind? Oder gibt es noch viele Städte, die wir in Irak noch nicht wissen, wo sie sind?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Ich spreche natürlich über Dr. Paul Collins, Assistent Keeper der späteren Mesopotamien im Bereich des Mittleren Osten am British Museum. Mein Produzent Joseph und ich gehen zu Pauls Büro am British Museum, kurz vor Weihnachten, um dieses Episode zu recordieren. Und ich hoffe wirklich, dass Sie es genießen. Paul, willkommen zurück. Es ist immer ein Vergnügen, dich auf dem Podcast zu haben.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Ökonomisch, mit Sargans Neuemperium. Du hast es vorhin erwähnt, den Euphrates-River, den Tigris-River und er besitzt eine große Menge Land und fertile Lande auch. Was sind die ökonomischen Vorteile, die Sargon bringt? Wird sein Neuemperium schnell sehr reich werden?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Und das ist das Schiff von Kopper und so aus dem Mediterranen. Aber ich glaube, vielleicht auch der große Schritt. Sind all diese Bereiche oder Lapis Lazuli aus Afghanistan? Sollten wir uns vorstellen, dass das der Ausdruck des Handels ist, den Sargon und sein Empire hat, dass sie diese großen Verbindungen weit über die supposed borders der Empire haben?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
I'd like to ask now about some of the figures surrounding Sargon and his administration. And first of all, before we focus on particular figures, given the administration and recording all the stuff and controlling an empire, how important are scribes for Sargon and for the running of his empire in his court, let's say?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Und was für andere Professionen, was für andere Leute wären, die sehr nah an Sargon in seinem Gericht gewesen wären, sagen wir mal, bei Agade? Ich meine, wissen wir viel über die Job-Rolle, die vorhanden waren und die in einem frühen Mesopotamischen Empire wie Sargons wichtig waren?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Vielen Dank, es ist ein Vergnügen, zurückzukehren. Und wir machen es wieder einmal in deinem schönen Büro im Britischen Museum. Und Sargon of Akkad, das fühlt sich wie einer der ersten großen Namen, die wir aus der Geschichte geschrieben haben.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
So you see in the inscriptions once again, understandably, that close connection between the rulers and the gods. Is there a sense of him portraying himself as a god-king or his successors portraying themselves as god-kings or is that a step too far?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Over time, almost as their dynasty has been more consolidated, perhaps. Big question now, Paul. A funny question. I think we might be going back to his successors too with this as well. Do you have any idea what Sargon looks like?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Very recognisable. We got it on the front cover of a book right in front of us.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Es ist ein wunderschöner Teil, ist es nicht? Aber was mich am meisten beeindruckt, ist die ganze Kreativität. Es sind Bronze-Statuen, es ist aus Bronze gemacht. Es ist die ganze Kreativität der Haare und der verschiedenen kleinen Flicken in der Haare und eine sehr beugende Haare auch. Es erzeugt eine sehr beeindruckende Bildung.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
See figures rising and falling even after their death. Now, one other key figure, which we haven't covered yet, but very close to Sagan, which I'd like to talk about, which is introducing his daughter. And I think a lovely way to bring this in would be if we could now, first of all, focus on a particular artefact, I know you know a lot about, and contemporary to the time of Sagan.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Please forgive me if I get the pronunciation wrong. Kitushtu's Seal. What is this?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Ein bisschen Superstar-Status. Und wir werden das ein bisschen überlegen, besonders wenn wir sehr schnell zu den Gründen kommen. Aber ich meine, zuerst einmal im Kontext. Wie weit zurück sind wir mit der Geschichte von Sargon?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Sie ist unglaublich wichtig für Sagan in der ganzen Regierung des Empires. Es scheint zu sein, dass wir viele Grundmaterialien für sie haben. Können Sie vielleicht mehr kontemporäre Beweise für Enadwana als für ihren Vater sagen?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
So she, just like Sagan, gets these extra tales and legends added to them over time. So it is not just Sagan, it's almost like a family tale. The story of these figures from the distant past. They get this legendary afterlife that just adds more to their story as the hundreds of years go on.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
If we end Sargans particular story and then go on what happens afterwards, do we know much about either the length of his rule or what happens to him at the end of his life, how he dies, how it all ends for Sargon of Akkad?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
So over 4000 years ago. From the surviving archaeology, can we date it quite precisely when he's about in that millennium?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
You mentioned earlier how after his conquests there are rebellions from these particular prominent families of other city-states. By the end of his rule, from the surviving archaeology, can we tell how stable an empire he left for his sons and his successors?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
You know, because I'd heard the name Sargon before, but I'd never heard the name Naram Seem. But it's interesting, so is it almost by that point, is that the zenith of the Akkadian dynasty, the grandson of Sargon, almost like following Genghis Khan, you have a few of the Khans following him, that almost extend the empire further before it rescinds again.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Does it seem that actually with the Akkadians, with Sargons dynasty, it's not with him at the start that it's at its greatest extent. Es ist tatsächlich mit seinem Großvater Naram-Sin.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
As you kind of hinted out there, it's not all about military conquests and all of that with this empire. With Sargon having established this empire and the generations that follow with the capital at Agadei, culturally, how big of a shift is this period marked by? Let's say in regards to art styles and things like that.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
And whereabouts are we talking with Sargon's story? I mean, the whole region of Mesopotamia, it feels such a vast region.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
How much of a change can you see in the archaeology when we get to this period of Sargon and post-Sargon?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Was würdest du sagen, ist fast die wichtigste Teil von Sargans Geheimnis? Ist es der Fakt, dass später Regierende ihn als Role Model für diejenigen sehen, die Militärkonqueste wollen und ein Empire bauen wollen? Oder ist es, weißt du, diese breite Idee des künstlerischen Veränderungs und dieser großen Art der Zeit, die dieser Zeit darstellt? Oder etwas anderes?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
And what happens with the legacy of Sagan? So, of course, important in Mesopotamia for hundreds, thousands of years. Outside of Mesopotamia, does his legacy endure, let's say, when the Greeks take over that part of the world, the Greeks and the Romans? Do we know much about Sagan's later history as the centuries and millennia go on?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Glaubst du, dass mehr Archäologie über Sagan entdeckt wird, oder, sagen wir mal, in einem Archiv eines Museums, irgendwo mehr Kuneiform-Tabletten, die seinen Namen nennen werden? Glaubst du, es ist nur eine Sache der Zeit, bevor mehr Informationen über diesen Figur zu Licht kommen?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Und das ist geografisch, also mit diesen beiden Rädern da, ich meine, sehr fertile Lande, die als Teil dieser Fertilität, der frühen Landwirtschaft und so weiter. Das fühlt sich, als wäre es ein idealer Ort, wo man diese unglaublichen frühen Zivilisationen von tausenden von Jahren sieht und dann diese unglaublichen Figuren, die auch wie Sargon emergen.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Paul, das war absolut großartig. Und wir sprechen über eine echte Figur. Wir sprechen nicht über die Pyramiden oder Stonehenge. Das ist ein echter Ruler und scheint sehr wichtig in der ganzen Geschichte von Mesopotamien zu sein. Gibt es irgendwelche wichtigen Botschaften, die Sie uns von diesem Chat heute nehmen möchten?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Paul, danke so sehr, wie immer. Well, there you go. There was Dr. Paul Collins returning to the podcast to talk through the life and legacy of Sargon of Akkad. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits Podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
That's interesting. So population-wise, do we think the majority of the population would be in those great cities or are they spread around the countryside and those cities, they're just the nodes of power almost?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Das sind Städte, die wir in einem vorherigen Episode mit dir besprochen haben. Das sind Städte wie der fabelnde Uruk, sind sie nicht?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Extraordinary. Before we delve more into that world that Sargon is born into, I'd like to take a step back and ask about the source material that we have. For learning about this figure, this ruler from some 4,000 years ago, what types of sources does an Assyriologist like yourself have to learn more about this figure and the world he's living in?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Das ist so interessant. Das ist auch der Fall, dass man manchmal, sagen wir mal, mit Arthurian-Legenden später Erfolge, wie Romanzen der Erfolge. Es klingt also, als ob mit Sargons etwas ähnliches später, sie kreieren diese großen Mythen, diese außergewöhnlichen Fehlungen, die unglaublich fühlen, die diese Figur umfassen.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Und dann schauen wir auf diese späteren Erkennungen, aber auch sehen, ist da eine Basis der Wahrheit, zumindest für einige der Informationen, die überleben?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
And in regards to that archaeology, so not as much from his own time. So is it, as you say, so inscriptions, are they a key source of information for people to have figured out that this figure of Sargon, he's not just this legendary person, that there was actually a ruler called Sargon?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
So etwas wie Sagan, nennt er bestimmte Jahre nach bestimmten militärischen Konquesten oder so etwas? Ist das, was er macht?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Let's move on from the source material and go back to the world of Sargon. Do we know much about his background or his rise to power and what the Mesopotamian world looks like as he is rising to prominence?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
That's interesting. So for his own power base, it seems he's almost a usurper. So he's not an original Prince of Kish or anything like that. He gathers support and, as I said, presumably it's unclear, but seems to overthrow the rule of Kish and becomes the leader potentially of that city.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Er ist jetzt in Kraft gekommen, aber vermutlich, wenn er diese Ambitionen von Erweiterung mit seinen Soldaten hat, wer sind die anderen großen Spieler in der Region? Sicherlich werden sie nicht liegen lassen, wenn das passiert.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Es scheint ein bisschen eine dumme Frage von mir, aber natürlich, dass die ersten Empire-Bilder manchmal mit Sargon verabschiedet werden. War so viel da, bevor die Zeit von Sargon und dem König von Uruk, den er befindet?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
And how does Sargon react to this achievement of defeating Lugazer Geisel and said uniting the plain in one political entity?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
Und hat er viel von seinen militärischen Erfolgen? Wie in der überlebenden Archäologie sehen wir ihn als den gewonnenen König, wie über und fast über seine verletzten Enemien?
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
He is one of the earliest recognizable names from history. A warlord who lived more than 4,000 years ago and forged what some have argued was the world's first empire. He was a king who became revered by later generations in ancient Mesopotamia, in the area of modern-day Iraq, with his story becoming mythologized with great legends for almost every aspect of his life.
The Ancients
Sargon of Akkad
We'll get to that in a second. I must also ask, you mentioned how he gathers this large army, this powerful army. We don't know the extent, but it certainly seems that he had a sizable army with him for the conquests that he did do. Do we know much about the army itself?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
And yet, despite the scale of this great pestilence, the plague of Cyprian and the many other diseases that perhaps quickened the empire's decline rarely get much time in the spotlight. That is, until now. This is the Ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and welcome to the third episode in our special Fall of Rome mini-series, where we ask a most intriguing and important question.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Because I've got in my notes for the 1st century and early 2nd century AD, a time period known as the Roman Warm Period. Did that suggest a more stable climate at that time, which helped it when there were cases of epidemics, but that they didn't go from epidemic to pandemic?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
So that stable climate ensured that there wasn't that almost perfect storm of problems that would ultimately contribute to a pandemic.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Well, it certainly isn't. It's when you think of the big names around the end of the first century and beginning of the second century AD with the Romans like Trajan and Hadrian. And as you say, that context of they were lucky to live in the time that they did and it contributes to us historians remembering this time as more stable than others in Roman history.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Did plague help destroy the Roman Empire? Last week, across our first two episodes, we delved into the turbulent forces and pressures that strained Rome from within, like civil wars, economic tension and the rise of Christianity. We also explored the impact of countless barbarian invasions from outside the empire, culminating in two brutal sackings of its eternal city.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
And it seems like, Kyle, later in that century, this is when we get the first of the big events that we're going to be talking about. Because what happens around the mid-second century that is this major disease event that really starts to stir up big problems for the Romans?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
So there's always- That was the year of the four emperors, wasn't it?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
These episodes are available now to hear. On Thursday, in our series finale, we'll be unpacking the lives of the last emperors, revealing the thoughts and actions of those in control when the sun finally set on Rome's western dominions. Today, however, we're moving on from the fateful choices of vainglorious emperors and the swirling hordes of Goths, Vandals and Huns to the wild forces of nature.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Is it a theory by the Roman writers that it was brought into the central Mediterranean from the east?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
The Romans prided themselves on bending the natural world to their will. They braved tempestuous seas and traversed barren deserts to lay claim to vast swathes of the ancient Mediterranean. They imported king-like beasts from distant lands, to be slaughtered for the amusement of the masses by an enslaved class of hardened beast hunters. But Mother Nature always has her way in the end.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
It's an interesting case, isn't it, the Antonine Plague? You're lacking the bones from that time period, but yet you have the accounts. and yet you need to be careful when looking at the accounts to consider the agendas. But regardless, to have figures like Galen as well, isn't it, who's documenting it, it's an extraordinary time period and extraordinary pandemic to learn about.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Carl, if we move on roughly 100 years to the next big pandemic event which seems to hit the Romans, we've had the Antonine pestilence, What then hits the Roman Empire roughly 100 years later? It feels like now we're in the heart of this 3rd century crisis period. What's this next big plague event that happens?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Rome's eventual fall was as much a triumph for bacteria and viruses, for droughts and floods, as it was the consequence of generals and barbarians.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Starting with the Antonine Plague in the mid-2nd century, the Roman Empire found itself engaged in a war against environmental and biological crises and it is this story of an imperial system buffeted by the stresses of disease and climate that we're going to dive into today.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
The Romans, with their typically ancient understanding of science and medicine, could scarcely make sense of the raw power and unrelenting speed of the diseases they faced. The costs were so catastrophic and the consequences so devastating that there could only be one conceivable explanation. The wrath of the gods.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
I love that expression, as you say, the first rule of the Roman Empire and how following it, you get a very new look Roman Empire. So far in our chat card, we've covered a pandemic from the second century and we've just done the plague of Cyprian with the third century.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
If we now move into the fourth century and this new look Roman Empire, do we have a similar big pandemic hitting the Roman Empire during that period or is it quite different? Is it a period of recovery almost?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
And the pestilence which exploded throughout the empire from the year 165 AD during the reign of the emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus was no different. Vividly described by the Greek physician Galen to cause scorching fevers, drawn-out bouts of dysentery and the eruption of weeping sores, the Antonine Plague engulfed all corners of the Roman Mediterranean.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
But almost slightly undermining that idea of some recovery in the 4th century if there isn't one of these great pandemics. But as you get to the end of the 4th century and the beginning of the 5th, of course you get, as already covered in this series, the arrival of these great Romanised barbarian groups that the Goths and the Huns and so on
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Is there a sense behind that movement that the climate is changing a bit from the previous centuries? Is it becoming a bit more fickle? Yes, okay, although there aren't any great pandemics at this time, things like famine and food crises may well affect the movement of peoples like the Huns that influence their movements into the Roman Empire.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
That will lead ultimately to a lot of turbulence within the boundaries of the empire.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
an invisible terror that wrought unspeakable agony, an unseen dread that stole into homes grand and humble alike, leaving desolation in its wake. Perhaps the arbiter of some celestial curse. Centuries after the devastation of the Antonine Plague,
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
The authors' reading of the torment suffered by their Roman forebears, and steeped in Rome's rich tradition of myth-making and folklore, inevitably attributed its origins to divine retribution. Ammianus Marcellinus, a 4th century soldier and historian we encountered in our last episode, is a clear example of this.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Carl, it's just interesting to theorise, keeping on the Huns a little bit, and going back to what you said at the start, how it's not either or. Plague is the end of the Roman Empire. It's human things. It's that they go hand in hand. Maybe the movement of the Huns westwards, could we theorise that potentially they're bringing
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
maybe some of them are bringing diseases with them, or as they're going into the Western Roman Empire area, they're encountering diseases that they haven't encountered before, like on an epidemic level. It's thinking about that part of the story as well as the human events themselves.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
I'm glad that you highlighted India there because that is something we haven't mentioned, as you say. But of course, India is the biggest trading partner of the Roman Empire and all of that maritime trade going from the Red Sea to the western coast of India, as you say, pathogens alongside all of these precious goods that are going alongside there.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
I wish we could talk more about the plague of Justinian, and as you've highlighted, that's the big one, and that's the plague in the 6th century. I must ask, though, because this series is largely covering the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Sax of Rome, so the 5th century, I mean,
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Let's say just before the end of the Western Roman Empire, when you have those last Roman emperors in Ravenna in the late 5th century. Has the state of the empire by that time fractured? Is part of the crisis the fact that it has been also hit by environmental and epidemiological effects too, alongside barbarian migrations and so on? Do they all
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Writing nearly 200 years after the outbreak, he painted a picture of a disease creeping into the empire from the east, born of sacrilege committed by Roman legionaries under the scorching Parthian sun. Legend had it that these Roman soldiers, clad in their iconic segmented armour, encountered a temple of Apollo in the city of Seleucia.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
come together to create a perfect storm that weakens the Western Roman Empire and the Roman Empire in general at that time.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Would you date that 3rd century crisis? It's always difficult to pinpoint a single point or a turning point where some could argue that Rome's fate was sealed.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
But does it feel actually that that 3rd century crisis and that midpoint, when you have the plague of Cyprian, but also very much the change in the outlook of the emperors, the coinage issues and so on, would you suggest that's a key area to look at?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Driven by drink and parched throats, they dared to raise it to the ground, carrying off the sacred statue of Apollo to their halls across the sea. But such desecration would not be tolerated by those enthroned on high.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
And I guess if you take the climate argument as being one of the drivers for the Huns moving west, it begs that what-if question, doesn't it? Maybe if the climate and the disease environment had been more favourable, I guess that big what-if, could the Roman Empire in the west have endured longer? But I guess it's a what-if question that people could debate for ages.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Kyle, this has been such a fantastic chat. Last but certainly not least, your book on this topic, it is called?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Carl, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Well, there you go. That was Professor Kyle Harper joining us for the third episode in our Fall of the Roman Empire series exploring the devastating role of disease in Rome's collapse.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
From the Antonine Plague to the Justinianic Plague, we looked at how outbreaks of deadly pathogens helped bring a mighty empire to its knees. I really do hope you enjoyed it. Next up in this series, we'll be rounding things off by looking at the final emperors of the West. How did the last men to wear the purple try to hold things together? And why did it all finally fall apart?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you leave us a rating as well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Apollo, a god renowned for his vengeful fancies, did not take kindly to being scorned, and these Roman soldiers, seeking to line their pockets with sacred gold, were the unwitting instruments of his revenge. As punishment for their hubris, they unleashed a pestilence that crept like a shadow across the Roman world. Or so the story spread.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
The truth, veiled by the relentless march of time, remains elusive. Did the shadow of plague truly stalk the footsteps of Roman legions returning from distant lands? Or was it a tale conjured up in the corridors of power to smear the general in command of the Parthian campaign? Perhaps we will never know.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Equally difficult to discern is the extent to which these diseases helped hasten Rome's eventual fall. Did plague help destroy the very fabric of the Roman Empire? Or was it simply one piece of a larger, far more complex puzzle? To help answer these questions, I'm thrilled to be joined by Professor Kyle Harper from the University of Oklahoma.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Kyle is a specialist in the ways nature has shaped humanity and is the author of the critically acclaimed book, The Fate of Rome, Climate, Disease and the End of an Empire. Kyle, great to have you with us.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Now, when talking about the fall of Rome, I must admit, immediately I do think of either barbarians, sacks of Rome, or maybe financial problems. Disease and environmental stress isn't always at the centre, at the forefront, when discussing the fall of Rome, when perhaps it should be. Why is that?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
You mentioned new data there. Is this almost a new frontier as these new scientific developments have emerged? People like yourself are learning more through this particular lens of understanding how it goes alongside those human impacts, as you say, in big events like the fall of Rome.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
But does that mean then this study of these genetics can help us learn more about ancient pandemics, including those that affected the Roman Empire?
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
The words of Pontius of Carthage paint a chilling picture of the Cypriotic plague's devastating impact on the Roman city of Carthage. But Carthage, the ancient colony of the Phoenicians, was not its only victim.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
We've got a few pandemics to get through. But before we do that, is it important to highlight straight away how even these great periods of time in Roman history, when there aren't these pandemics, that disease is rife. This isn't a place where everyday health is really, really high for the Romans.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
For 15 relentless years, beginning in 249 AD, this Ebola-like contagion gripped the full breadth of the empire, draining it of life with an almost unprecedented ferocity, one of the first ever examples of a transcontinental pandemic.
The Ancients
Did Plague Destroy the Roman Empire?
Despite all that, Kyle, it's quite interesting that for, let's say, the first two centuries AD, or at least to the mid-second century AD, when you've got the beginning of the Roman Empire and some of its most famous names, Trajan, Hadrian, and so on, despite this background of poor health, not having the modern science that we do today, there aren't any pandemics during that period.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Is it also interesting, because what really struck me is when you mentioned how it's almost kind of the coming together of five different cities. And if memory serves me right, isn't it with the Philistines later that they have five cities, and sometimes later you hear like the Pentapolis, five city-states together.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
You almost see this repeating idea of five cities being linked in some sort of entity or another in particular stories.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
A historian of the ancient Near East and biblical scholar, Dylan has been on the podcast before to talk through the stories of Moses and the Exodus and that of the Ark of the Covenant. Dylan is a wonderful speaker and this was a really interesting chat about Sodom and Gomorrah. Enjoy. Enjoy. Dylan, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast today. It's great to be back.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
But also, it's almost like the five cities standing up against these powerful, mighty powers coming from the east. And as you've highlighted earlier, If this is the story that includes Sodom and Gomorrah, that seems to be more better known when referring to these cities later in the Bible.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Should we therefore think that actually many of the people who were reading the Bible would not have associated Sodom and Gomorrah first and foremost with sin and infamy, but actually this story of defence against these powers to the east, first of all?
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Well, let's now look at the location, as you mentioned earlier there, Dylan. So is it believed, or I mean, is it expressly mentioned that, as you said, the location right by the Dead Sea or in the Dead Sea? I mean, what does it seem to suggest?
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
And we did the Ark of the Covenant last time, and we did Moses as well. So you are one of our go-to experts for the book of Exodus, the book of Genesis, and exploring the stories of these well-known objects and figures from the Old Testament. And Sodom and Gomorrah, it feels like another well-known story from that part of the Bible.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Do you think that there is any potential historicity or historical basis behind the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah or these kind of cities in that environment? Maybe the wider five cities that are mentioned together.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
If you're saying that that later story of Sodom and Gomorrah is written post the sack of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, and then you have the Judeans either coming back from Jerusalem or those writing in exile, and I guess they have a different agenda for wanting to write than the story of Sodom and Gomorrah compared to those writing pre that time.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
So what is the big question, first of all? What is the biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah?
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
You can see the different agendas of the writer right there as to why they create that story.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
So, trying to explain why Jerusalem was destroyed, why God allowed that to happen, is it kind of that thinking, right?
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Now, I'd like to return to archaeology and Sodom and Gomorrah in the 20th century, Dylan, because I got in my notes something called the Ebla Bible controversy. Now, what was this and how does it relate to Sodom and Gomorrah?
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
I must also ask, because it is really interesting when exploring biblical stories, parallels with other stories from the ancient world, is Sodom and Gomorrah different? Are there any parallel stories that we can see in other ancient cultures? As in my mind, actually, we go to something like Atlantis, kind of a similarity there of a city destroyed by the gods.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
I guess also that human mindset, isn't it? Because actually that wider narrative of a city either being conquered or being destroyed because in the eyes of the victorious, that city become decadent and all of those things where they're partying too much. And then another power comes in, overpowers them. And the reasons they give is because, well, that city just became a place of sin itself.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
The Romans do it multiple times with cities that they capture. I think of Tarentum, Monte Taranto in southern Italy. They label the Greeks there as becoming incredibly decadent and a city of sin. Corinth as well. So actually, if we kind of explore that wider narrative, Sodom and Gomorrah caused the fact that it's destroyed and never rebuilt.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
But actually, it's a human mindset thing of people trying to explain why a city was destroyed or conquered is because their city just became destroyed. a place of sin and they were taken over by people who considered themselves more virtuous, I guess.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
the atlanteans whoever it is yeah exactly don't share that same kind of fate when we did a poll we did a poll after our tower of babel episode asking which story from the old testament you'd like us to cover next and the overwhelming answer for that the one which had the most votes was sodom and gomorrah we had some other juicy topics in there like david and goliath and so on and so forth
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
So, Dylan, why do you think that of all the stories in the Bible, including the Old Testament and the New Testament, but why Sodom and Gomorrah is always there in like a top five most popular or people want to hear about? Why has it remained such a well-known, intriguing story to people down to the present day?
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Dylan, this has been fantastic. Always a pleasure to get you on the podcast. And it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Dylan Johnson talking you through the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Now, if you want more ancient history videos and clips in the meantime, then also be sure to follow me on Instagram at Ancients Tristan. Don't forget, you can also listen to The Ancients and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free, and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me, and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
So they're geographically positioned in the literature, in the story at least.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Fire and brimstone, that's it. And just to clarify, so the location of this house where the divine visitor, where God and his two followers, they receive hospitality, that house itself is not in Sodom or Gomorrah. It's a different location. And he's talking about Sodom and Gomorrah from outside almost.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Because even now we say Sodom and Gomorrah, it's never Gomorrah and Sodom, is it? Right.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
But it's interesting also how there is a lot, and you've mentioned this to me before we started recording, theological baggage with those two chapters, isn't there, surrounding Sodom and Gomorrah and this whole narrative, saving this one family related to Abraham, but then everyone else is just consigned to being destroyed by God. I mean, the theological discussions are aplenty in the chapter.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
And it's not there, is what I'm trying to say. But is that important to highlight? Also, we might think today, book of Genesis at the beginning of the Bible, it must have been written first. But of course, almost it feels like an onion. There are so many different layers to these stories.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Those were excerpts from Genesis 19 in the Old Testament, describing one of the most famous stories from the Hebrew Bible, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by God for their sinfulness. Today the names Sodom and Gomorrah, particularly Sodom, are well known and infamous, and when we did a recent poll asking which biblical story we should cover next, Well, Sodom and Gomorrah won convincingly.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
And when they're added and compiled together, it's not that the oldest stories are at the beginning and that the stories we have today were the earliest versions of them either.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
We've covered that main narrative story of Genesis book 18 to 19, but there's another part of the book of Genesis, isn't there, which talks about Sodom and Gomorrah that I feel we need to talk about first before visiting those other cities and the historicity and archaeology about it.
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
Sorry, just to interject there, you mentioned a monarchy and all that. Just so we know, what do you mean by a monarchy there? What are we talking about?
The Ancients
Sodom and Gomorrah
We're going to explore the stories about these two cities that survive in the book of Genesis. We'll delve into the context, their supposed location near the Dead Sea, and whether there is any historical basis to the biblical of Sodom and Gomorrah. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Our guest today is Dr. Dylan Johnson from Cardiff University.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Larissa is a paleontologist who has been studying the megafauna of Ice Age Australia, looking at the fossil record, including those from a remarkable site in New South Wales called Cuddy Springs. Larissa has examined how climate change may well have contributed to the extinction of these giant kangaroos, killer wombats, flightless birds and so on.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Koalas, we associate them with Australia today, and you've mentioned drop bears already. Any equivalent in the Ice Age, Ice Age Australian koalas?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
She's here to give us an introduction to the amazing world of Ice Age Australia and why its story deserves to be better known. Larissa, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
And that, of course, also includes snakes. Were there giant Ice Age snakes, Larissa, in Ice Age Australia?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Well, and you've also highlighted, Larissa, that importance in the story of Australia, Ice Age Australia, Australia in general, with aridification, with that that climate part of the story, and we're going to get to that. But I want to talk a bit more about the evidence we have surviving for these megafauna, Larissa. I mean, how rich an archaeological record is there from Australia today?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
What an intriguing topic. Ice Age Australia. When I first think of the Ice Age, I will think of Europe or North America of woolly mammoths. Don't instinctively think of Australia, but this was a place that had a great variety of these extraordinary, quite unique megafauna.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Do you have lots of sites to choose from to learn more about these megafauna and ultimately what happens to them?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
And is it just Australia at the time of the Ice Age, or should we be thinking bigger?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
They are one of the great animal survivors, aren't they, of all time?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Larisha, it's so interesting and also how teeth are so important for learning more about that stuff and how much information you can ascertain from these molars or whatever that have survived. But also it seems to suggest, as you said there, we'll delve more into that climate change, the aridity part of this discussion in a moment.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
But I guess, does it also emphasize the fragility of many of these great megafauna species that even with a slight change in their environment, in their climate, because they're so big, even small changes can set off a huge domino effect that can result in extinctions?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Larissa, I'd like now to quickly talk about humans in Ice Age Australia and their relationship with these megafauna. I appreciate that Indigenous Australians believe that they've been in Australia forever. I respect that belief. But scientifically, when do we think now, when do we believe now that the first humans reach Ice Age Australia?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
And for how long, roughly, do we think that they coexist with various Ice Age megafauna before they go extinct?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
It's a huge area, so we should be imagining those land bridges between those areas of sea that we think of today.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
So we've got Cuddy Springs, this is New South Wales, this is inland, this is nowhere near the coast.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
So you should be imagining, I mean, today, I don't know if it's outback, is it, but quite a dry landscape today when you're excavating and finding out what the environment was like for these megafauna in these different sediment layers that you said, whether it's 30,000 years ago or 400,000 years ago.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
And the duration, the longevity of those glacial and interglacial periods, do they, I mean, is there variety? Are they quite different in length or is there quite a standard length between the two?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
So interesting, isn't it, how this new research is revealing more and more and more. And as you say, the duration of coexistence between early humans in Australia and megafauna, it's going further back and back, which is really interesting. And Zygomaturis, I mean, that's another of those big Ice Age wombat things, isn't it?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
So what your research is revealing is that with that change in climate, it evidently does affect the diets of these megafauna, as is shown through the scientific research of their teeth at sites like Cuddy Springs and so on. I am always hesitant when people say, oh, certain large species died out for one reason, and newspaper headlines are saying they died out because of this.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Do you think, yes, climate probably was a significant factor in the ultimate extinction of many of these species, but can we not rule out that some of these early humans did hunt them, or at least presumably scavenged the remains of these big beasts, and maybe could that have had a small impact too?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
And the periods when you do have that large landmass stretching from the Philippines to Tasmania, Larissa, I've got in my notes the name Sahul. Is that the name it's given?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Larissa, this has been fantastic. I'm afraid we can't talk in any more detail about the marsupial lion or killer wombat, but what a species that is. Last but certainly not least, briefly tell us about the research centre that you created, the DeSantis Dream Lab, what it is and why it's important and linked to your research.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Larissa, this has been absolutely fantastic. It just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Well, Diego, there was Professor Larissa DeSantis giving you an introduction to the amazing world that was Ice Age Australia. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Next week, we're moving from Ice Age Australia to Europe and Western Asia to explore the story of the last Neanderthals. That episode, featuring Dr Chris Stringer, promises to be a big one, so stay tuned.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
And as we're going to be talking and focusing in on quite a few examples of these Ice Age megafauna from that great continent, In those 2.6 million years, is there a particular heyday for the Ice Age and these Ice Age megafauna that we can focus in on?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
In the meantime, please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
The woolly mammoth, the saber-toothed tiger, the giant ground sloth. When someone mentions the Ice Age, you might immediately think of great beasts like these, these large animals that roamed the Pleistocene landscape and are today extinct. But what about the Procoptodon goliath, a giant short-faced kangaroo? Or the Deprotodon, a massive herbivorous marsupial, also known as the killer wombat?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Now, you mentioned also in that explanation, Larissa, radiocarbon dating. So this is a particular type of dating fossils and so on. But for evidence older than 50,000 years, is the carbon not there so you can't date it as accurately? Is that what radiocarbon dating is?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Well, it's very commendable for yourself and others in the field then who are analyzing sediments or whatever, for those sites which are older than 50,000 years ago. And I'm guessing it's looking at sediments from there and other evidence surviving Larissa to get more of an understanding of the great amount and variety of megafauna that existed in Australia for much of the Ice Age.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
And I've got lots of different things on my sheet in front of me, lots of different animals that hopefully we can get through. But can you give us an idea of What types of great beasts of megafauna existed in Ice Age Australia?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Or perhaps the Wunambi, a huge species of snake similar to modern-day pythons. These frightening, lesser-known megafauna that lived on the supercontinent that was Ice Age Australia. It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring the extraordinary world of Ice Age Australia.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Flightless birds as well? I mean, a terror bird or a massive dodo equivalent were there?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
Oh, yes. I was in Australia for a year or so. I heard the drop bear stories. Yeah.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
We'll explore the climate, the many different individual beasts that once roamed the land, the arrival of humans around 60,000 years ago and why many of these megafauna ultimately went extinct. Our guest today is Professor Larissa DeSantis from Vanderbilt University.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
I mean, Larissa, you mentioned your work around climate change, and we're going to get to that, especially when we get to that question around extinction. And also with the arrival of humans, we're going to get to that as this chat progresses.
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
But keeping on climate, but not so much climate change, when you have these killer wombats, these great birds, these lizards, these giant kangaroos, and so on, numerous species – The environment that they were best suited to. I mean, do we know much about the climate, the environment in Ice Age Australia?
The Ancients
Ice Age Australia
I mean, Australia today, you have, of course, you've got the bush, but you've also got the outback and you've got nicer areas as well. Was it just as diverse back then? What do we know?
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Yes, the Romans defeat Antiochus III. The Romans are rising in the background basically, but the Seleucids are still a big power in the East.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's episode, well, we're exploring the origins of the most well-known Jewish festival of the year, Hanukkah.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Hanukkah emerged from an incredibly important event in ancient Judean history, a revolt known as the Maccabean Revolt, which happened more than 2,000 years ago at a time when the great Hellenistic successor kingdoms of Alexander the Great reigned supreme over Judea and the Middle East.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
This is a story of defiance, of Jewish civil war, but also of resistance against a foreign Hellenistic superpower, the Seleucid Empire. Now the Maccabean Revolt is a complex topic, so joining me to help untangle it and its central link to Hanukkah is a regular guest on The Ancients, Professor Jodie Magnus from the University of North Carolina. Now I'm a big fan of Jodie and her work.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
just summarise that it seems like it's gone from more of a softer introducing of Greek culture let's say as you highlighted earlier with Jason and that was in the cities as well so not really the countryside to this next king Antiochus IV being in a bit of a strop right
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
after failing to complete his conquest of Egypt, and then go from that softer approach to a much harsher approach and probably not really thought through. Because as you say, this is a complete change in direction as to how he's treating his subjects. Maybe a knee-jerk reaction, but surely that's not good.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
With Jason, as you're saying, it seems that there doesn't seem to be any resistance, but here it must be the complete opposite. Yeah.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
She's a wonderful speaker, a force of nature who knows so much about the ancient Levant. I really do hope you enjoy as we explore the origins of Hanukkah and the story of the Maccabean Revolt. Jodie, it is wonderful, as always, wonderful to have you back on the podcast.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Exactly, Jody. So that might have been how he saw it, but how do those in Judea, how do they see this?
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
You're more than welcome. And we're talking about the Maccabean Revolt. And this feels like an incredibly important event in Jewish history and in the story of ancient Judea.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Yes, the word Maccabee. Yes. I mean, because we said Maccabean revolt. I mean, what actually was the word Maccabee?
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
So does that then make Jerusalem, with that place, I mean, was that almost kind of an anti-Maccabean stronghold at that time? You know, it was almost like a spotlight.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Yeah, very closely intertwined, aren't they? But from what I gather, we've got a lot to get through in the next 40 or 50 minutes. So without further ado, let's delve straight into it. Second century BC, early second century BC Judea. What is the context for just before this revolt breaks out?
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Well, it's the same here. I would say I'd be exactly the same in the UK.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Origins of Hanukkah is very much associated with the end of this part of the revolt, but we probably should stress it's this part because there is actually more to come.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
So yes, absolutely. There's much more to the story, which we're going to have to do in several podcasts in their own right. But still, Jodie, congratulations.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
You've filled in, you've given us so much information over the past 50 minutes or so, as you always do, whether it's the tomb of King Herod or the Dead Sea Scrolls, origins of Jerusalem or Petra or the origins of Hanukkah and the Maccabean revolt, as you have done today. It just goes for me to say, as always, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Well, there you go. There was Professor Jodie Magnus returning to the show to explain the origins of Hanukkah and its link to this Maccabean revolt that occurred more than 2,000 years ago. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
So it's interesting because you say the Seleucids and Ptolemies fought over this land. I think it's like one, two, three, four, five Syrian wars on there for control of Judea. Ptolemy is there for the Jews, the people of Judea, but Greek influence is there too. That's really important to highlight. Greek influence is there too, especially when we come to the outbreak of the revolt.
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
So you have that in Jerusalem, but of course, the whole province of Judea, it's much more than just the city. So that's happening there. And as you say, it's really interesting, even though it seems to be contrary to biblical Jewish law, that they are embracing this Greek culture. So where does the trouble begin, Jodie?
The Ancients
Hanukkah & the Maccabees
I'm presuming it's beyond the walls of Jerusalem, that there's a bit more fight back and resistance to this.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Henry, it's interesting because obviously we've started with Sahelanthropus and then covered Ardipithecus and then Australopithecus, which feel like the big names you need to cover in that early phase, that bipedal chimp phase. Yet, we've gone from 7 million to 3 million years or 3.5 million years. That's almost half the whole story of human evolution that we know about.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Yet, the evidence that we have surviving is quite rare. They only know a handful of different species. Just for example, that big gap between Sahelanthropus and Ardipithecus that you highlighted between seven and four million years ago, that's two to three million years in between that the evidence is lacking.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Henry, welcome back to the podcast. It has been too long. Thank you very much, Tristan. We've done Top 5 Dinosaurs. We've done the wonderful story of the origins of life on Earth. And this feels like another story, the rise of humanity. And Henry, this is a story, I mean, to start with, it takes us back more than 5, 6, 7, 8 million years.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
It'd be fascinating to know, hopefully in the future more evidence will emerge, learning a bit about that whole evolutionary step, diversity of early bipedal chimp phase. What could come in the future there?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
And so we get to Australopithecus, and I know with Australopithecus there are various almost subspecies of Australopithecus found all across Africa. We're still centred in Africa at this moment in time. But would you argue, are they the most successful in the bipedal chimp phase? Are they the most bipedal of them all too?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
It's also interesting that you've got Anamensis, Sediba, Africanus, as you mentioned, all these different types of Australopithecus. Just imagining them walking around, strutting their stuff, maybe the people who left those footprints at Laetoli, as you mentioned, those original footprints found by Mary Leakey and her team.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
If it seems that these bipedal chimps, by the time we get to Australopithecus, they're becoming more capable of being bipedal and they're almost walking like we would do, at least for some stages. The big question is why? Why do you think these early hominins, they start becoming more and more bipedal?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
There's a lot of history and ancient history and prehistory to cover here.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
And to tell the story of human evolution, as we're going to be covering several million years of history... You mentioned fossils. How rich a record do you have for studying human evolution? Do you have many examples of fossils from millions of years ago surviving?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
It's interesting. It's such a key stage in the story of evolution. And thank you for explaining that there, Henry, the importance of that change in the backbone and bipedalism. So we have got to, let's say, about three, 2.5 million years ago. And it feels like this is when the next overarching phase comes in, the beginning of the genus that we belong to, the homo genus, the homo phase begins.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Henry, it's no surprise then, it's no coincidence that Homo erectus literally translates as upright man. That's correct. And I remember doing an interview with John McNabb a couple of years ago on Homo erectus, and he showed me a replica pelvic girdle.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
of Homo erectus and it's basically exactly the same as a modern human so as you say this was a fully bipedal early human built for running covering long distances which leads us very nicely into the next big question with Homo erectus which is How far and wide does Homo erectus ultimately spread? Because we've been talking only about Africa so far in our chat.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Homo erectus is one of, if not the most successful, I would argue, and longest lasting of early humans, isn't it? And it's a fascinating story. If anyone wants to learn more about the story of human evolution, you start at Homo erectus because it is such an essential hominin to learn about in ultimately the emergence of Homo sapiens and all of that.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
And I wish we could cover so many different examples, but Henry set the scene just before the arrival of Homo sapiens onto the main stage. How many different types of early humans are there, and how diverse are they?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
So we are going to be covering several different early human species as this chat goes on. But with that kind of sparsity of surviving evidence, do we think that there were probably many other species on the human line that we just don't know about?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Yes, Henry, so let's get on to now the final chapter almost, the arrival of Homo sapiens onto the scene and interactions with all of these other early human species that it must have shared the world with for hundreds of thousands of years before ultimately becoming the last one standing.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
It makes you realise also, doesn't it, for those of you listening in from
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
north america or south america actually how late in the story of human evolution humans do actually cross that bering land bridge into the americas because we focus largely on on eurasia and africa today but that's another interesting part of the chat and we've done episodes on the first americans before we've also done an episode with the one and only the oracle of neanderthal studies professor chris stringer oh yeah he basically says quite similar to you henry about you know the
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
how the Neanderthals die out that lack of genetic diversity and basically Homo sapiens are just a bit better at all of those important things that endure over time. I've got a paragraph from your book, which feels good to read out now. It's only a sentence, actually, a couple of sentences. As you say, by 40,000 years ago, at the latest, Homo sapiens was the last hominin on Earth.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
In just a few geological eye blinks, it had not only eliminated all the other hominins, but had spread to every part of the Earth, and this is bar Madagascar, Antarctica, New Zealand, and those specific islands. It's a huge journey, isn't it? Having gone from 7 million years ago in Sahelanthropus and the first of those bipedal chimps that we know of to Homo sapiens, to us today.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
I mean, what a journey it has been. I mean, not for us personally, but the whole story of human evolution.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Henry, you do cover that kind of humans today as well in this new book, which is called, it's not the Swift-Diggedon book title, it is called, Henry?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Well, Henry, it just goes for me to say thank you for coming back on the podcast today. Thank you very much. Well, there you go. There was fan favourite guest Dr. Henry Gee returning to the ancients to talk through the story of the rise of humans. I hope you enjoyed the episode.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
If you want to listen to the other episodes which feature Dr. Henry Gee, well then check out in our archive our episodes on the origins of life on Earth. There's another one called Top 5 Dinosaurs where Henry and I talk through our top five, including the brilliant species that was the iguanodon with its thumb spikes.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
And another episode, another of Henry's pet favourite topics, which is the story of feathered dinosaurs, which has really come to the fore in the last couple of decades of scientific research. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
If you can leave us a rating as well, we'd also really appreciate that. I would really appreciate that. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're covering the rise of humans. Yep, that's right, human evolution. It's a story that stretches back some 7 million years, one that begins with ancient apes and ends with us, with many different species of early humans emerging and disappearing in between. The story of human evolution is one still shrouded in mystery.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Right, Henry, now let's delve into the story. We are sitting comfortably. When does the human story begin? We go back to apes, I'm presuming.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Henry is standing up to fetch the sheep skull, which is right above his office setup.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Not only is the fossil record for early humans extremely limited, but so much of it is still debated. Including the all-important question, why did early humans, or hominins, why did they become bipedal? How did they evolve from long-armed tree dwellers to two-legged runners? These radical changes in bodily structure that have occurred over millions of years.
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
It's amazing how the earliest evidence you have, say 7 million years ago, found in a remote corner of Chad, and even though you don't have the full body surviving or all of the legs, just from that skull and the position of the spine, you can deduce that it is different in its locomotion, in bipedality, which is central, isn't it, to the whole story of the rise of humans?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Sahelanthropus is almost our starting point of examples that we're covering. I've got on my notes that this is basically the dawn of the bipedal chimps phase. What comes next following Sahelanthropus in the millions of years and in the story of the rise of humanity?
The Ancients
Rise of Humans
Joining me to talk through this evolution story is a fan favourite of the podcast, Dr Henry G. Henry has been on the podcast before to talk about both the origins of life on Earth and the dinosaurs. Quite a few of you have been clamouring for us to have him back on the show and I'm delighted to announce his return to talk about the fascinating story of the rise of humans.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Atlantis
And so they have that naval power. I'm guessing, is the next step of that kind of looking elsewhere, do they start forging an empire?
The Ancients
Atlantis
it's the ancients on history hit i'm tristan hughes your host and we're back ready to kick off 2025 we have so many exciting episodes coming your way with lots more ideas in the pipeline thank you for all of your suggestions for episodes we should do and for voting in our recent polls on spotify also about what episodes we should cover we're going to address all of those in due course over the weeks and months ahead
The Ancients
Atlantis
Edith, it's also very interesting there because you mentioned the word Phoenicians, like an ancient Carthage, and as you say, a great maritime power. And I think I remember hearing you talking about this in the past, but if Atlantis is situated in the Atlantic, of course, Greek traders aren't going that far west, but the Phoenicians, of course, are.
The Ancients
Atlantis
And I think there's one Phoenician explorer who may even circumnavigate Africa. Absolutely. Do you think there is that potential link with Phoenicians with the Atlantis story?
The Ancients
Atlantis
Well, if we go, it's almost like the zenith, the climax of the story, Edith. I mean, how does this decadent Atlantean empire come into contact and conflict with this idealised Athens of 9,000 years ago? What's the story there?
The Ancients
Atlantis
And as we've mentioned, that apocalyptic, cataclysmic end is what happens to Atlantis. And Atlantis is, in the original story, it is wiped off the face of the earth because of its own doing, basically. Yes.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Now, back to today. We want to begin the new year with a bit of a bang. A name shrouded in mystery, but also one that you would all recognise. Atlantis felt like a clear winner. Today, Atlantis is quite the topic. It's regularly used in headlines whenever evidence of human activity and settlement is discovered underwater.
The Ancients
Atlantis
So that's the story of Atlantis. Edith, is there a particular reason as to why he chooses to create that story when he does? Is there a particular context as to why he writes that story at a particular time, the story of Atlantis, and to highlight Athens as he wished it had been?
The Ancients
Atlantis
I had no idea just how much distaste Plato had for Athenian naval power. But I guess it also, on a slight tangent maybe, but you mentioned earlier how part of the Atlantis story is originally they're self-sufficient. They have enough supplies to look after themselves on their island. And I immediately think with Athens, like it's not just their warships.
The Ancients
Atlantis
I've certainly seen the headline Britain's Atlantis be used several times over the past few years to label new discoveries in the North Sea, for instance. Atlantis is also popular in TV and film. Think DC Universe's Aquaman or the BBC 2010 series Atlantis. The Lost City of Atlantis is a regular title of videos and articles online today. So what's the actual ancient story of Atlantis?
The Ancients
Atlantis
I mean, they are having to get grain imported from the Black Sea. from North Africa. Is Plato thinking about that as well, about ships having to bring in supplies to sustain Athens when it's, well, an Athenian democracy?
The Ancients
Atlantis
I'd like to bring in, you mentioned a bit earlier, Sicily. I'd like to ask about that now, because how does Plato's story of Atlantis, how is it also linked to Plato personally visiting Sicily? And I think in particular, the city-state, the great city-state of Syracuse.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Where does it come from? Was Atlantis real? Were there any potential real inspirations for the story of Atlantis? And if it wasn't real, why has the name Atlantis become a byword for a lost city beneath the waves? Well, to explain all, our guest today is the renowned Professor Edith Hall from Durham University.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Fair enough. Okay, so slight tangent there. Thank you for answering that quickly, Edith. So we've got the story of Plato's Atlantis and explained the reasons behind why he creates this dialogue. Do we know much about its intended audience and how popular the story was amongst Greek contemporaries?
The Ancients
Atlantis
Do you think there's a clear defining moment? It's probably too difficult to say if there's one moment or wherever, where people start going from realising that Plato, when he's rediscovered, that this story of Atlantis is clearly just a legend that is created for him to put forward his own point. to then people saying, oh, Atlantis must have been this real place.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Maybe it was over here, or maybe it was over here, or we can associate it with this. Do you ever see a clear point when that starts becoming more, I'm not going to say mainstream, but more common that you get those sorts of interpretations?
The Ancients
Atlantis
Edith is here to explain how the original story of Atlantis stems back more than 2,000 years to the famous ancient Greek philosopher Plato. Sit back and relax as Edith talks through the ancient story of Atlantis and its links to the ancient Greek world. Edith, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Oh, yes. They say Britain's Atlantis, don't they? The submerged land in the North Sea.
The Ancients
Atlantis
It's funny, isn't it? The word Atlantis has gone from being a place to actually just being the word that you say when an underwater archaeological treasure is being discovered. It's just something that people know. It's a great catch line for people nowadays.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Edith, you have explained brilliantly the context behind the story and why it's originally created by Plato. What a story it is. And the context of 4th century BC Athens. It just goes for me to say, Edith, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Well, there you go. That was Professor Edith Hall talking through the real story of Atlantis. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening to it.
The Ancients
Atlantis
We will put a poll up on Spotify at the bottom of this episode asking you if there are any other mystery cities that you'd like us to cover in the near future or climactic events, events which may have caused the collapse of certain societies which become subsumed by nature. That will be on a poll beneath the episode.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free, and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's enough from me, and I'll see you in the next episode.
The Ancients
Atlantis
And to talk about this, the story of Atlantis, it feels like one of ancient history's most popular legends, and I stress legend, that still captures imaginations down to the present day. It's as popular as ever.
The Ancients
Atlantis
Absolutely. Atlantis, Hercules, all of those ones. So let's start off with one of the big questions. First of all, Atlantis, was it real?
The Ancients
Atlantis
Well, let's explore this first of all, and that particular time. If you say this is the first historical fiction story, I mean, so how far back in time are we going? When were these sources that talk about the ancient myth of Atlantis?
The Ancients
Atlantis
And this is a time, context, following the Peloponnesian War. If Plato, he's in Athens at this time, what is the status of Athens following that big defeat they've had against the Spartans? Is it still kind of a philosophical hub at that time with the likes of Plato?
The Ancients
Atlantis
So Timaeus and Critias, these particular dialogues, I mean, so what's the context of Of the story of Atlantis in these dialogues, why are these figures meeting up and ultimately go about talking about this legend of Atlantis some 9,000 years before they're alive?
The Ancients
Atlantis
Well, I was going to ask that now. It sounds interesting if no other Athenians seem to know of this story. But Critias, how does he know of this story supposedly from 9,000 years ago?
The Ancients
Atlantis
Yeah, so I said, dubious credibility, and yet the author of it, whoever's talking about it, Critias is saying, this is true, because I've heard it from all of these people.
The Ancients
Atlantis
And so if we get to the story itself, if we focus on Atlantis first of all, what does Plato say about Atlantis? Because if I can remember correctly, he seems to go into quite a lot of detail as to kind of the layout and structure of this city that he's created.
The Ancients
Atlantis
of what make the story what it is for for posterity and does he make any mention about i mean the constitution edith that they've got as well to give more character as to the whole city of atlantis alongside all these concentric rings and channels of water
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Today, in the first of four special episodes, we're starting at the beginning, casting the net wide to trace the origins of the Western Roman Empire's collapse. From civil wars that pitted emperor versus emperor to the contested rise of Christianity, we'll explore the swirling maelstrom of internal pressures and tensions that pushed Rome to breaking point.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
You mentioned in passing there panegyrics as well, and these are big praises of a particular figure, aren't they? So once again, in regards to textual evidence... Take it with a pinch of salt, I'm guessing, because the whole objective of those panegyrics is to praise a particular figure who they're addressing and just laud them with praise too.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
What an amazing contrast to have in the surviving evidence there, David. And you mentioned Constantine. To start this off, We're going to cover briefly that incredibly turbulent period before the rise of Constantine, which is also a topic that we've explored in detail in our previous episode together, which is this third century crisis.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Now, we could do a whole series on the third century crisis, but David, very briefly, what is this period and how turbulent was it? How close did Rome come to falling during this 50 years or so in the third century?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Next, we'll journey north to the unruly borderlands along the rivers Rhine and Danube to mingle among the so-called barbarians who flooded across the empire's boundaries and carved out their own barbarian kingdoms from the husk of this fallen superpower.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
And some have argued that actually by the end of that crisis, when you get to the beginnings of the fourth century, that the Roman Empire, although transformed and different in its appearance, was actually stronger than it had been before. I mean, how do you buy into that?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
So is it covering all those big issues you highlighted there, military restructuring, economic restructuring? Of course, with Constantine, you have religious restructuring as well. So how does first Diocletian and then Constantine, how do they go about making these great, I guess you could say, repairs to the Roman Empire, but going beyond that at the same time?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Then we'll travel east, past the lands of the Goths and the Huns, to the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia and the faraway lands of East Africa, tracing the origins of a series of indiscriminate deadly plagues that ripped through the empire's population. We'll ask, was disease the main factor that brought Rome to its knees?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
So that's more than 200 years after the time of Diocletian. So that once again emphasizes just how long lasting it is.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Constantine's wars with his fellow rulers before he becomes sole emperor, and I think he does some more external fighting as well. Although, of course, today Constantine is largely associated, as you say, with that conversion to Christianity.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
But can it be also said that his policies sowed the seeds for a gradual decline of the Roman Empire over the following decades and ultimately more than 100 years later?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
And finally, to bring things to a head, we'll tell the tale of Rome's last emperors, the rump Roman state they supposedly controlled, and we'll ask what happened next. Did Rome really fall, or did it evolve and continue by another name? Throughout it all, world-leading historians will bring their unique insights.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
But in regards to being hit very hard, do you get internal conflict at that time? You mentioned Julian the Apostate. I must admit, for me personally, the emperors that follow Constantine the Great, I always struggle to remember all of the names of because some of them are quite similar, like Constans and so on.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
But do some of these emperors, do the biggest challenges they sometimes face be from other Romans, high-standing Romans, who want a chance at seizing the purple for themselves?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Does it feel like Constantine the Great was almost a special case in the fact that he was able to manage it for that period of time? But as you say, maybe because he wasn't hit with a big dose of plague hitting the empire or a Hunnic invasion or something like that.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Together, we'll discover thrilling revelations and immerse ourselves in the world of ancient Rome to help us unpack its ultimate fate. But all of that is yet to come. First, let's wind back the clock and imagine Rome before its fall. Back to an empire that heralded the likes of Augustus and Trajan, Caesars who dripped with prestige and power.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
It's funny that we've barely, if at all, mentioned the place, the city, the old capital of Rome in our chat so far. Does it feel that ever since Diocletian and the Tetrarchy, that Rome's importance has declined in this period? The Roman Empire might be as strong as it ever has been. But actually, when you look at the city of Rome itself, can we say that actually that city has lost its importance?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
to a dominion that bounded the azure swells of the Mediterranean and stretched from the damp and drizzly marshes of Caledonia in modern-day Scotland to the parched deserts and wild badlands of Parthia in the Middle East. For those who experienced it, the majesty of Rome in the first and second centuries was undisputed.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Let's explore a topic that I know is one of your pet favourites, which is the rise of Christianity, particularly in the fourth century. And you've already mentioned figures like Constantine the Great and Theodosius the Great have a big impact on, I guess it's the spread of Christianity, isn't it, within the Roman Empire? But what impact does this spread have on the whole outlook, on the makeup?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
We could look at the administrative and more of the Roman Empire in this period.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Its people were the mightiest of men and commanded the fairest portion of the earth, so claimed Salvian, a 5th century churchman looking back wistfully on the empire's greatest days. We can imagine a merchant vessel coming in to dock at the great lagoon port of Ostia, some 20 miles from Rome.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
To answer the question, Christianity, in some senses, it does strengthen the Roman Empire with bishops and how long they endure in their posts, but can also weaken it at the same time, particularly with this almost civil war, this division within the Christian church that emerges at this time. When all these questions are being asked, David, let's move on to the army.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Because for so many of us, when we think of Imperial Rome, you might think of the famous movie Gladiator or images of legionaries in their Lorica segmentata and their small gladius stabbing swords and large scutum shields and getting this idea that it was the most professional and best army of the ancient world. How different is the Roman army by the time of the fourth century?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
She is loaded with precious cargo, ceramic urns of aromatic spices from Arabia, oil and grain from Egypt, silk and pepper from the faraway lands of India and China. but also enslaved people captured on the battle-worn frontiers of the Empire.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
And that is because of the different types of enemies that you've got. You've got a reinvigorated Persia in the east with the Sassanians. You've got larger groups of people beyond the Danube and the Rhine. So is it no longer a case of the Roman Empire being completely dominant and there's just not enough unity in the people that they face?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
It's the fact that it's had to adapt and change in its outlook because the nature of its opponents has changed.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Because this time of massive Roman armies in the many tens of thousands marching beyond its borders and launching an aggressive campaign, it feels like that time is over. But you did mention earlier Julian the Apostate and his invasion into Persia of 60,000 men and the complete catastrophe that that is.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Built to be nimble and weave through the waves, the wooden ship with its red cloth sail is dwarfed by the great public buildings which line the shore and snake back inland to the capital. The skyline is crowded by the roofs of basilicas, temples, theatres and markets. Slavers and traders barter and haggle. The chains of bondage clink and clank.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
But is that almost an outlier for the period when looking at military strategy of the Romans at that time?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
There's also sometimes this feeling that with the army and how it is transformed by this period, that there is a decline in training and discipline with the Roman army. I mean, how far would you agree with that?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Gold coins, each stamped with the portrait of the reigning Augustus, are pulled from purses and change hands. The goods are distributed throughout the boot of Italy and beyond, along newly cobbled roads that slice through the empire into the lavish pantries of grand townhouses and country villas.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
I'd like to go back then to the fourth century and explore another topic now, which is class tension and economic instability. Now, is there a case at this time where is there more tension emerging between the aristocracy, the military, and the common people? This unholy triangle, in a way.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Owned by wealthy aristocrats and senators, these extravagant dwellings stand as centuries to the Roman elite's undiminishing largesse. Rome's ancient senator class spent most of their time mingling amidst the public squares of the Forum, shaded by the huge Senate House and the temples of Saturn, Castor and Pollux.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
But even with this great gap, as you say, between rich and poor, I found it very interesting because my mind immediately goes to things like the Peasants' Revolt or something like that. Are there not many cases where they're saying, we can't do this, we're going to rise up in revolt because we can't do this anymore?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Are there big attempts then by the Roman administration and these various emperors to address something which has been a massive issue in the third century crisis? And we've covered it in the past, which is the devaluing of coinage, of currency. Is this a big issue in the following century, even if from the outlook it looks as if the Roman Empire is not falling, it's stronger than ever?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
They listened to budding orators and seasoned elected officials deliver speeches flattering the emperor. Beside them, and throughout all public forums of the empire, stand magisterial statues of the emperor's likeness, hewn from gleaming marble and colours too. To the multitudes in the provinces, this was as close as many would get to the real thing, to the real emperor.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
It's the thing, isn't it? They give up one of those key territories which the Romans do lose is Dacia, isn't it? Which is modern day Hungary, Romania area, north of the Danube, which was famous for its gold mines. And now it's lost that income of gold from that area.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
The Roman Empire, the beating heart of the ancient world. A dazzling expanse of marble and martial valour, of tow goods and trade routes that spanned three continents. It was constructed over the course of a thousand years and rose from a city that was once an overlooked backwater. Rome's sweeping imperium came to define the very concept of civilisation. But then the cracks started to emerge.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
This whole chat, it's been very much one of the fourth century, Rome's recovering from a crisis. It looks like it's stronger than ever. However, having explored various parts of it, you can look a bit beneath the water almost and see that actually there's a bit more fragility there. Do you think that is actually similar with the economy and the coinage?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
This last question before we move on to our next section is the fact that although these various emperors do these measures to try and fix the economy, to make it healthier, that still it feels as if the economy is quite fragile with that great gap between the rich and the poor, with the differences in the coinage now and so on.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Whilst much of Rome's domain was won by conquest and annihilation, up to the year 225 AD, Rome's emperors oversaw a period of unprecedented peace – the Pax Romana. Pliny the Elder, the famed Roman author who perished in the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD, wrote,
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
We'll explore several of those big shocks in the next episode with the likes of the Vandals, the Goths, the Huns, the Saxons, the Franks, and so on, the barbarian invaders. But I would like to focus on one other shock, another external enemy that you've already highlighted and you mentioned them again right there, which is the threat from the East, the Sasanian Persians.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
How big an impact would you argue that the Sasanian Persians have and that continual fractious relationship they have with the Romans and Roman disasters like that of Julian the Apostate. How much of an impact do you think that threat has with a weakening of the Roman Empire in the 4th century?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
They're doing the Romans a favor then, basically. They say, we're helping you stop the tide of these people.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
It sounds like you don't buy the argument that, let's say, in the 4th century, that more resources are then diverted to the eastern empire and so that because of that there was less focus on the Danube and Rhine rivers and less focus on fortifying those frontiers when those large groups of people ultimately do cross those rivers. It doesn't sound like that holds much weight.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
But all good things must come to an end. This vision of a Rome triumphant would perish and fade as all empires are wont to do. For many, the collapse came as if a bolt from the blue. Saint Jerome, a 5th century churchman based in Bethlehem, is said to have lamented, Who would believe that Rome, built up by the conquest of the whole world, had collapsed?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
It almost feels like you've answered my question that I was going to ask then for me, which was that, would an everyday Roman living through the fourth century have thought, this is an empire that's weakening, this is an empire that's in decline? It seems like the answer at that stage is no.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Which is why so many are so shocked when Rome is ultimately sacked in 410, isn't it? This is almost like the end of the world feeling for lots of them because they couldn't have fathomed it. They couldn't have believed it would be possible.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
But for those wise enough to recognise the fleeting nature of history, it was a destiny that could be foretold. As the great philosopher Emperor Marcus Aurelius once said,
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Absolutely. I won't say the history repeats itself, but you can definitely see similarities through history. And it therefore seems unfair to ask if there is one single moment that you personally would pinpoint that... laid the foundations or paved the way for the fall of Rome? Do you think there could be any one moment you could say, well, that probably sealed the empire's fate?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Well, I'm glad we finished off with you mentioning the likes of Alaric, the Goths, the Basset, the Frigulus, the Sack of Rome and so on, because we're going to be covering all of that in detail with Professor Peter Heather in our next episode. But David, wow, what an episode this has been. It's so insightful, so interesting.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
And it just goes for me to say, as always, thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast. My pleasure. Thank you. Well, there you go. There was Dr David Gwynne returning to the podcast for the first episode in a brand new series on the fall of the Roman Empire. Looking at the origins and internal pressures that set the stage for one of history's most dramatic collapses.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
I hope you enjoyed it. For more of David on the ancients, do go back and listen to his episodes on Rome's third century crisis and on the Goths. Now, if you want to dip into the next chapter of Rome's fall, then make sure to check out the next episode in the series. We'll be diving into the so-called barbarian invasions and asking how much of Rome's fate really lay in the hands of outsiders.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
So now we're firmly in this world, let's find out more. To help us understand how an empire of such strength and majesty could fall so far and so quickly, I'm joined today by Dr. David Gwynne from Royal Holloway University. David, he's a great friend of the podcast. He's previously joined us to talk about the Goths and Rome's third century crisis.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
And today we're delving into the origins of this incredible story of mass decline, a story of broken ambition, of destructive power and fated inevitability. This is the beginning of the end of Rome. David, it is wonderful to have you back on the podcast today. Thank you very much. Great to be here.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
It feels important, first of all, to highlight how important it is to take a long-term approach when discussing this massive topic, which is the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
And how should we define fall then in this case? Because as you've mentioned, some parts of the Roman Empire, they really do endure.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Is there a sense then, and actually with some of those kind of, we say post-Roman kingdoms today, don't we, but would they maybe not have even considered themselves successors, but actually just the next in line?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Rome, once a dominion of glory and gold, in just two centuries would become synonymous with decay and collapse. And over the next two weeks, the question we're asking on The Ancients is how? How was the most illustrious empire the world had yet seen brought to doom and destitution? You're listening to The Ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and this is the story of The Fall of Rome.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
It's these people who hadn't known of a time before Rome as well. So I'm guessing it's almost like after the death of Alexander the Great, how that memory just endures and is actually very influential and important to those kingdoms, isn't it?
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Very different world indeed. Well, you mentioned sources there and you also touched on earlier that very important work that was Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Now, when was he writing that? When did he write that? Gibbon began writing his masterpiece in 1776.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
They've done pretty well, haven't they? He's done pretty well with the evidence he had at the time and the thoughts of the time.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Because I was going to ask you next, not even argue, the fact that now in the 21st century, we're sitting down here in 2025, how influential that book remains to people down to the present day, at least maybe not in scholarly circles, but at least in the popular perception of this idea of a complete collapse of the Roman Empire.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
Can we say that Edward Gibbon's book, it still holds considerable influence for every day. I mean, just people wanting to learn more about this and maybe have heard one or two things in the past about it.
The Ancients
The Fall of Rome: Origins
So today we're going to be exploring the origins of the fall of Rome. So largely actually going to be covering events that occurred more than 100 years before that canonical date of 476 AD. The sources that we have for this and the various topics we're going to explore, what types of sources are we going to be looking at?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Es ist fast ein Swipe nach einer vergangenen Tragödie.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Elektra ist die Tochter von Agamemnon, König von Mycenae und Heroin der Trojaner Kriege, dessen Tod tatsächlich geöffnet wurde, bevor er zu Troja kam.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Nachdem er von stehenden Winden mit seiner Armee auf dem Weg nach Troja ging, als sie versuchen, Griechenland zu verlassen, ist Agamemnon erzählt, dass er seine Tochter, Elektras Schwester Iphigenia, zerstören muss, um die Göttin Artemis zu beheben und den Wind wieder zu starten.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Es ist interessant, Armand, wie ich mich erinnere, als ich Euripides für ein bisschen Schule studierte und es zu Sophocles und Aeschylus vergleiche. Es ist lustig, dass auch im 5. Jahrhundert BC diese verschiedenen Tragedien, egal ob sie am gleichen Fest oder ihre Spiele in direkter Kompetenz mit einander sind, was ich glaube, wir sollten auch erinnern.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
dass diese Spiele als Teil dieser Wettbewerbe in Athen hergestellt werden, dass man sich fast aneinander schlägt, aber auch Euripides. Ist es fair zu sagen, dass er ein bisschen radikal ist? Er ist ganz neu in seiner Beziehung zu den Geschichten, als die Tragedien, die vor ihnen gegangen sind. Und er mag das, und Elektra ist ein guter Beispiel dafür.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Das tut Agamemnon, und er fährt mit seiner Armee nach Troien, wo er die griechischen Kräfte in der besagten Kriege bewegen würde, mit berühmten Namen wie Achilles, Ajax und Odysseus. Sobald er nach Hause zurückkehrt, zerstört seine schmerzhafte Frau, Clytemnestra, ihn als Revenge für das Zerstören ihrer Tochter.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Du hast Dionysos erwähnt, den Gott des Weins, was ein interessantes Feature ist, ein Gott in dem Spiel, zu dem wir mit Euripides zurückkommen könnten. Ich würde gerne ein bisschen mehr über Elektras Charakter besprechen, denn etwas, was mich auch mit diesem interessiert,
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Wenn ich an ältere griechische Frauen denke, denke ich an Frauen, die nicht wirklich viele Freiheiten in der ältesten griechischen Gesellschaft haben. Und trotzdem gibt es eine Lektion am Vordergrund dieses Spiels, die diesen Wunsch-Ark leitet und ein wichtiger Proponent daraus ist.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Ich meine, stellt ihr Porträt die ältesten griechischen traditionellen Ideen von Feminität und einer idealen ältesten griechischen Frau?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
These events all lead to Elektra being consumed by grief for her father, rage and an unrelenting desire for justice against her mother. Elektras story is one of the most powerful explorations of revenge and morality in the ancient world, preserved in the plays of great Greek playwrights such as Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Es ist fast, glaube ich, für einen ehemaligen griechischen Mann, das Spiel zu sehen, glaube ich, eine Art Schrecklichkeit in ihrem Mindset, Angst davor, was eine Frau tun könnte. Ist das fair zu sagen in ihrem Mindset?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Ich möchte noch einmal auf Elektra konzentrieren, bevor wir auf die anderen Themen des Spiels gehen. Das bringt es zurück zu dem, was du am Anfang gesagt hast, als du den Plot von Elektra bemerkst hast. Jetzt als Rekapitulierung. Elektras Vater, Agamemnon, After returning from the Trojan War, he's murdered by his wife, Clytemnestra.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Indeed, both Sophocles and Euripides each wrote a tragedy titled Elektra, offering strikingly different portrayals of this famous heroine. In Sophocles' Version ist Elektra reich, resolut und unverzweifelt in ihrer Begeisterung für ihren Vater. Im Gegenteil, Euripides präsentiert eine psychologisch rauher und zerstörerische Elektra, bitter, zerbrochen und verbrannt von Jahren von Schmerzen.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
But the motive for that, as you've highlighted, is before he sails to Troy, in order to get the winds so that his ships can sail to Troy with his soldiers to appease the goddess Artemis, that he has to sacrifice another of his daughters. who is Elektra's sister, Iphigenia, and Agamemnon goes through with it.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Clytemnestra wants to get revenge, wants to kill Agamemnon, because he sacrifices their daughter. But Elektra, regardless of that, she wants to kill Clytemnestra, um ihren Vater zu töten, obwohl er ihre Schwester getötet hat. Ist das eine interessante Teil der Geschichte?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Denn ich weiß auch, dass es in dem Spiel den ganzen Teil gibt, wo Clytemnestra und Elektra reden und sie versucht, zu bestätigen, warum sie ihren Mann tötet, indem sie sagt, er hat meine Tochter, deine Schwester, getötet. Wissen wir, warum sie letztendlich entscheidet, dass sie Clytemnestra töten will, anstatt mit ihr zu verabschieden und ihren Ansatz zu akzeptieren?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
In that whole... I mean, it's a horrible family, basically.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
The Phoenician world, that's Tyre, that's the Lebanon region.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Diese Unterschiede erzeugen faszinierende Fragen über Gerechtigkeit, Furcht und die Vorstellung einer Frauenagentur in der griechischen Tragödie. Um die Geschichte von Elektra zu entdecken, habe ich Professor Armand Angour aus Oxford University interviewt, ein berühmter Klassiker, Musiker und Autor.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Genau. Auch der Fakt, dass die wichtigen Events dieser Geschichten immer um die Tötung eines anderen Mitglieds deiner Familie herumlaufen, was du immer wieder siehst. Ich meine, selbst mit dem göttlichen Verbot, das Orestes erhielt, um seine Mutter zu töten, Wenn Orestes auf der Bühne ist, siehst du das moralische Dilemma in ihm auch?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Selbst wenn Elektra auf der Seite sagt, du musst das durchgehen, du musst unsere Mutter töten. Aber ist das moralische Dilemma auch dann reflektiert, bevor der Moment passiert, dass es fast eine Warnung gibt, in der Entscheidung zu gehen und Matricide zu verurteilen?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Nun, Armand und ich waren begeistert, eine neue Stage-Produktion von Elektra in London ein paar Wochen später zu sehen. Die Performance starb Brie Larson in der eponymischen Rolle und es war sicherlich eine kraftvolle Produktion, die zu dem Original stand. Armand und ich haben dieses Interview ein paar Tage nachdem wir die Performance gesehen haben und ich hoffe, dass Sie es genießen.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Wie denke du, dass die athenische Publikation letztendlich reagiert hätte auf Das Sehen durch diesen Mörder, Orestes wird von Elektra ermutigt. Und es fühlt sich ein bisschen wie das Hammurabi-Gesetz, könnte man sagen, in dem Fall, wie ein Auge für ein Auge, wie ein Mörder für einen Mörder, Art und Weise.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Ich meine, wie würde der athenische Publikum reagiert haben, dass sie das Erleuchten der Gerechtigkeit, das sie in dem Spiel gesehen hätten?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Ist es diese Idee, dass sie eine mehr zivilisierte Art von Leben haben, als diese Menschen, die vor hunderten von Jahren lebten, diese mythologischen Menschen?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Armand, es ist großartig, dich wiederzusehen. Willkommen zurück auf dem Podcast. Danke, schön, dich auch zu sehen. Und es ist nicht lange Zeit, dass wir nicht sehen, weil wir letztens das Spiel Elektra in London gesehen haben. Ich habe noch nie eine Performance von Elektra gesehen. Ich habe nicht wirklich den Plot ganz in all seinen Details verstanden.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
I'd like to move on now to talk about another part of the play and indeed of Greek tragedies in general that we haven't talked about yet, but is always central. And we saw it during the performance a couple of nights ago, which is the chorus. Now, Armand, I know you love the chorus, but what exactly was the chorus and how important a role does it play in the whole story? So the chorus...
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Aber das ist ein eher chillender, ältere Spiel, kann man sagen, mit Revenge und Matricide direkt am Herzen.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
And it feels almost like Elektra is consulting them almost, as you say, when she's talking. Well, they're kind of giving their opinions on what she's thinking about, you know, about murdering Clytemnestra. When she hears that Orestes has died, that fake news that he's died, you know, and she's bereft and everything like that and all hope is lost.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
And, you know, the chorus is that almost, as you say, that reflecting, Reflecting her thoughts into someone else, when someone else is not on stage, one of the other main protagonists.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Lass uns über das Ende der Elektra in Euripides und Sophocles sprechen. Denn es ist nicht das Verbrechen von Clytemnestra, das das Ende der Geschichte ist. Wie enden die Geschichten von Euripides und Sophocles? Gibt es klare Unterschiede zwischen den beiden?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Wenn jemand die Geschichte von Philoctetes anschauen möchte, ist er sicher, dass er einen sehr, sehr schmutzigen Fuß hat.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
So let's talk about Jung quickly and go to the 20th century, the famous psychiatrist Carl Jung. Because you mentioned his name earlier and he is with whom we associate that the Oedipus complex. But does he also try to create an Elektra complex too? What is this whole story with Jung and the Elektra?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Und Aegisthus ist wie ihre Lieblinge in Griechenland, während er sich in der Trojaner Krieg kämpft, den Namen kennen wir so gut.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Zu denken, dass die Tragediens, Sophocles und Euripides, die einen dieser Festivals in Athen, mehr als 2.000 Jahre hervorragend, in der Hoffnung, mit ihrer Elektra einen Vogel zu gewinnen, zu denken, dass sie von den Beginn an und die Tragödie, die sie jetzt durch die heutige Zeit über Tausende von Jahren überlebt und so populär bleibt, die Legitimation griechischer Tragödie, insbesondere Elektra, erstaunlich ist.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Ich meine, Warum denkst du, dass sie so populär sind, warum wir die Geschichte von Elektra heute so populär finden? Wenn du es nur zu einer bestimmten Grund nennen könntest, wäre ich unglaublich dankbar, aber ich verstehe, dass es ziemlich komplex ist.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Well, Amon, that's a lovely thought to finish it on. It just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. Thank you very much. Well, there you go. There was Professor Armand Angour talking you through the story of Elektra, this extraordinary woman of ancient Greek mythology and tragedy. I hope you enjoyed today's episode.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Thank you for listening to The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you want more Ancient History videos and clips, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at AncientsTristan.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
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The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Und so, Elektra, wie du da bezeichnet hast, sie ist die Tochter des großen Königs Agamemnon, berühmt vom Trojaner Krieg. Und die Geschichte selbst, dann, sollten wir uns vorstellen, die Situation, ist das, fast 3000 Jahre zurück in die Bronze-Zeit-Griece oder die frühere Iron-Zeit-Griece, 3000 Jahre, ist das die Situation dieser Geschichte?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Ja, die Hittiten sind ein mächtiges Bronze-Zeit-Kreis in Anatolien, in Türkei, an dem Zeitpunkt.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Hermann, das ist wirklich interessant. Können wir uns dann erinnern, dass es im 5. Jahrhundert B.C., wenn wir an die Zeit kommen, als die Playwrights, die du erwähnt hast, für die Geschichte, die Tragödie von Elektra, die Läufer von Sophocles und Euripides, die wir besuchen werden, dass der Name Elektra, der ganze Mythos, all diese Namen würden von Atheniern bekannt sein.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Und dann würde auch der Name Elektra bekannt sein, als die Tochter, die in der Revenge gegen ihre Mutter zusammen mit Orestes involviert war.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Und das bringt uns auch gut zu Elektra und der Geschichte von Elektra. Waren es verschiedene Versionen von Elektras Geschichte, die diese ältesten griechischen Schauspieler im 5. Jahrhundert entwickelt haben? Welche Versionen haben wir?
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're focusing on one of the most complex and compelling figures in ancient Greek mythology and tragedy, Electra. A daughter whose path is first set in motion from the events of the legendary Trojan War.
The Ancients
Elektra: Revenge in Ancient Greece
Oh, also sie wird der Hauptcharakter. Es ist also eine Art Evolution von Aeschylus, wo sie die Geschichte beendet. Aber in diesen späteren Versionen, wie ich gesagt habe, ist die Name von Elektra der Name des Spiels. Sie kommt direkt zu den Vierten, dieser Tochter von Agamemnon, die für Revenge sucht. Genau, ja.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes, and if you would like the Ancient ad-free, get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to History Hit. With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabataeans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com slash subscribe.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
You mentioned that great weight of the mammoth and the amount of food that a woolly mammoth would need to eat to maintain its strength and its body weight. 20 hours, wow. So do we know much about the actual body of the woolly mammoth, Adrian, and not just the weight, but also that whole structure of it?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Every Sunday we'll be covering a story from this extraordinary epoch, from mammoths and other great megafauna that once roamed the Earth, to Neanderthals and extinctions at the end of the Ice Age. To kick off this new series, we're covering the Woolly Mammoth, this fan favourite Ice Age animal. This episode will feature not one, but two leading experts.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
First, a chat with the Natural History Museum's Professor Adrian Lister, a paleobiologist and leading expert on the woolly mammoth. Adrian will explain their origins and how they were built to survive in cold conditions from tusk to tail.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Adrian, I was about to say, this is absolutely fascinating because with the dinosaurs, for instance, paleontologists can give a rough idea of the Tyrannosaurus rex from its bones, as you say, and get quite a bit of an idea. But still, there's a lot of debate around certain parts of the Tyrannosaurus rex.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
But with the woolly mammoth, I think one of the things that does make it so amazing to learn about is the fact that you can, with the surviving evidence, with that quality, of archeological evidence surviving, you can research, examine even these small parts of a mammoth structure and analyze more about how they functioned.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Adrian, one last question on the body. You also mentioned earlier when talking about the teeth, how they're having to eat for much of the day. So if they're ingesting all of this food, all of these grasses, and they're getting energy from this food and it goes all around the body to ensure that the mammoth can survive. But does that also mean that a woolly mammoth is eating for much of the day?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Following that, we have an interview with Professor David Meltzer from Southern Methodist University, who has been on the podcast twice before to talk about Ice Age America and the first humans who settled that land during the Ice Age.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Adrian, you've brilliantly given us a really clear picture, an exciting picture of the woolly mammoth, what we should envisage and the great research that has gone into learning more about this Ice Age species. I have a couple of other questions I'd like to ask. One of them is, from all that research that has been done, do we have any rough idea for how long a woolly mammoth would have lived for?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
He's back on the show to explain the story of woolly mammoths in and around North America, including a fascinating study that revealed mammoths still alive 4,000 years ago in the remote Arctic of northeast Siberia. I really hope you enjoy. First up is Professor Adrian Lister. Let's get into it. Adrian, it is wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Very nice to be here.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Yeah, exactly. Yes. And at their height in the Ice Age, Adrian, how far and wide should we be imagining herd of woolly mammoths roaming across the world?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
10 million mammoths. And you also mentioned in passing North Japan, Britain, Ireland, places that we think of being islands today, but I'm guessing back then at their height, they were connected to each other. So there was a land bridge between them. That is correct. Yes. Adrian, you have fantastically given us a great introduction to the woolly mammoth at its height and what we should envisage.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
And it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to come on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Well, there was Professor Adrian Lister, leading expert on the woolly mammoth, giving you an introduction to this giant of the Ice Age, its origins, size and spread. Now, as Adrian mentioned, at their height, some 10 million woolly mammoths roamed the Ice Age world, whether that be in Europe, Siberia or North America.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
It's the story of woolly mammoths in Siberia and North America that we're going to focus in on now with Dr David Meltzer. We'll explore how humans interacted with mammoths when they first reached the Americas. Did they actively hunt these great beasts? We'll also look at woolly mammoth extinction and their final enclaves in the Arctic only 4,000 years ago. Are humans to blame for their extinction?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Well, let's find out. David, as always, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for having me back. It's fun. It is always good fun. And your topics always seem to get a huge reception. We've done The First Americans and Ice Age America. And now talking about one of the, can we say one of the most significant beasts of the Ice Age, the woolly mammoth.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
There's something about the woolly mammoth that we always come back to. We love the woolly mammoth.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Is it because you mentioned the size, significance on the ecosystems, the fact that, as you say, you don't see woolly mammoths anymore, kind of like the dinosaurs, but they once had a huge impact on the world?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Now, talking about the archaeological record, I'm talking about the record in general, David. How rich a record do you have as archaeologists when examining woolly mammoths, their interactions with humans, and also just their general lifestyle, how far they spread and so on?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Now, the woolly mammoths, but also, I guess, mammoths in general in prehistoric times. Surely they must be one of the most iconic prehistoric animal groups to have ever roamed this earth. The name and the word mammoth is still very popular today.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
So archaeological record, I'm guessing bones, skeletons, but do we also have things like DNA or poo? Sometimes people overlook poo, but poo is also a big thing, I'm guessing. Oh, listen, I'm into poo.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Well, that word extinction is something we will get to, but you also mentioned words there like Beringia and Siberia. So that area of Northeast Asia and what was once that kind of land bridge area connecting North America with Northeast Asia, was that area of the world one of the richest focal points of woolly mammoths back in the Ice Age?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
as well. If we go to North America and we'll focus in largely on sites in North America with the woolly mammoth, because I know that's a main area of your speciality, David, do we know roughly when the woolly mammoth spread into the Americas and North America and become that dominant animal in that environment?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Your scientific ID card, as it were. And so they arrive in the Americas. They're not sure which particular type of mammoth. And then I'm guessing they spread far and wide. And before the arrival of humans, are they at the top of the food chain in the Americas? And do we know from the archaeological record, do we know how far and wide they spread? Well, they were highly mobile.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
This seems important to highlight straight away, Adrian. We're focusing in particular on the woolly mammoth today, but mammoths as a group. So is the woolly mammoth just one of many different types?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
I'd like to also ask about footprints. We talked about DNA, we talked about bones, and briefly talked about poo as well. Do we have many footprints of woolly mammoths surviving in the archaeological record?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
So yeah, these things have turned up in a number of places. Sorry, I completely forgot, of course, as you highlighted earlier, that there are those two different main types of mammoth, aren't there, in the Americas as you go on. So is it at least two, or the woolly mammoths, I'm presuming, further north, and the Colombian mammoths further south? Exactly right.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
How does the arrival of humans on the stage late in the game, if you're saying that mammoths have already been in America for more than a million years, how does the ultimate arrival of humans in America, but I guess it could also be used as a case study for elsewhere in the world, how does it affect woolly mammoths?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Do we have the surviving evidence which shows that there was regular active hunting of these mammoths, and what types of hunting these humans were doing to try and down what was, as you say, the aircraft carrier of Ice Age animals?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
You mentioned these sites. Are these these so-named kill sites, these mammoth kill sites that you have in the archaeological record?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Well, you've kind of preempted my next question then, Adrian. So what do we know about the origins of the woolly mammoth and these other species that come before?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
And do we know much else about those sites? You've got those kill sites there where it seems that, well, maybe not if they're just scavenging on a dead mammoth. Maybe humans weren't directly involved in killing that mammoth.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Are there other clear sites, and I've got one I think in my notes, it's from South Dakota, where it's almost like these mammoths have suffered from a natural disaster, or they've fallen into something and not died from the human attack?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
It didn't work. Do we therefore also know quite a lot about young juvenile baby mammoths from the surviving archaeological record alongside the fully grown adults, the bulls, the males, and the females that we usually think of when someone says mammoth?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
We have humans and woolly mammoths coexisting during this later period of the Ice Age, David. During that time, humans were known as woolly mammoths, as you say, scavenging these carcasses, maybe actively hunting some of them as well with these techniques, trying to take down the aircraft carriers of the Ice Age. Would they not just be getting the meat off the mammoth?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
So one kill, as you say, you could come back to it at a later date. If the group that you're with go back to that place regularly or once or twice a year, they could remember where it is?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
If we go to the end of the Ice Age, David, the big question is, what happens to the woolly mammoth? What are the theories as to why this great beast, this behemoth of the Ice Age, does go extinct? Primarily, let's focus first of all on
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
And is this a pattern that you see? So the fauna is changing, the climate is going up, and the woolly mammoths, are they almost like the biggest casualty of it amongst a whole range of other animals that are caught up in this in that area, let's say of America, south of the Auschwitz? Well, they're the heaviest that disappears.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
And linking cause and effect. And this is something we've definitely chatted about in both of our last two chats. This idea, as you say, it's too simple an answer to then see humans are also living here. It looks like they're eating mammoth or at least times they must therefore have a big responsibility in the extinction of the mammoth.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
but also this extraordinary enclave where it seems that mammoths last a bit longer. I'd like you to talk a bit more about this because it is extraordinary. The story of these mammoths in the Arctic, but particularly on the islands as well as this particular peninsula you've already highlighted.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Can you explain to us a bit more about the work up there, David, and how it's revealed what was happening with mammoths there and why they last longer?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Fair enough. Actually, I must admit, before we did this recording, one of my colleagues did mention 10,000 BC and mammoths building the pyramids. So I'm glad that you mentioned it there. And do we think that these mammoths, I mean, very quickly, David, do we think that they die out just because of vegetation of change in that regard?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Well, David, this has been great. I've only got one more question to ask you, which of course is something that you see on the news time and time again with regards to woolly mammoth DNA and elephants today. Is it possible, do you think, that the woolly mammoth might come back?
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Well, David, on that note, I think we'll wrap up today's episode. This has been wonderful. As always, you've written several books, but talk to us about the book where you focus in on, among many things, Ice Age America, shall we say. The humans in Ice Age America, but of course, the woolly mammoths play a big part in that whole environment.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Brilliant. Well, David, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
Well, there you go. There was Professors David Meltzer and Adrian Lister talking all things The Woolly Mammoth. I hope you enjoyed the episode. This is the first in our brand new Ice Age series this February. The next episode will be released next Sunday, and we're heading down under to explore the awesome story of Ice Age Australia. Yes, that's right.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
In the next episode, we're going to be exploring the stories of these amazing and unique Ice Age giants or megafauna that roamed Australia tens of thousands of years ago, including killer wombats and massive kangaroos. You don't want to miss that one. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
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The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
So Adrian, it sounds there, and as you've highlighted, the changing climate and how that influences it as well. But to reach the woolly mammoth from, as you say, those first mammoths that go out of Africa,
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
It may be oversimplifying it, but it almost was like step by step by step in that evolutionary process until you reach that kind of transformed mammoth, which was the woolly mammoth we are familiar with today.
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It sounds quite similar to human evolution, doesn't it? It's not just one type to another. There are all these different lineages that link together. For a Joe Bloggs looking in, sometimes it's easy to oversimplify it. We're going from one species to the next to the next.
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And that presumably would include the woolly mammoth, was it? Was that one of the strongest, the best species?
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Well, Adrian, let's now talk through the bodily structure of a woolly mammoth so we can really understand how it adapted to best survive in these new ice age environments. And we can either go tusk to tail or tail to tusk, but I've got in my notes tail to tusk. So let's start at the back end. First of all, Adrian, what do we know about the back end of a woolly mammoth, about its tail?
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Can we talk about that for a bit? Does that show any kind of great adaptations for that new climate?
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The woolly mammoth, a great beast that has become synonymous with the Ice Age. More than 11 feet tall and 6 tons in weight when fully grown, covered in thick fur and possessing two mighty curved tusks, woolly mammoths roamed across great grassy plains for over 100,000 years, before they ultimately went extinct. There have even been attempts to bring mammoths back through their DNA.
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It is extraordinary that you have that much information to learn about the woolly mammoths, as you say, that rich archaeological record, which isn't just bones, but also these mammoths preserved in the permafrost. You've taken us from the tail straight away to the head and the ear. I think rather than jumping back, let's focus on the head and then we'll go down to the body.
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We've talked about the ear, but the overall structure of the mammoth's head, Adrian, how was it designed?
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They are an incredibly popular extinct animal that fascinates so many of us, So what do we know about these massive beasts? How often were they hunted by humans? And why eventually did they go extinct? It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Welcome to the first episode of a brand new mini-series this February all about the Ice Age.
The Ancients
Woolly Mammoths
In that Ice Age world where other famous fauna, let's say saber-toothed tigers maybe, or others, I guess it's not the sharp point or another mammoth, but it must be the great weight of the mammoth as well. So even a hit with the side of one of those tusks presumably could have been very, very damaging.
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No question about that, if not fatal. Do we know much about the brain size, the eyes, and the teeth? Should we go through those one by one?