Aligning with the winter solstice of 2024, Tristan Hughes and Professor Ronald Hutton delve into the ancient Druids of Britain and France.They discuss how Julius Caesar encountered this feared enemy in his Roman conquest of Gaul, and Cicero had meetings with a Druid leader in Rome.From human sacrifice to the creation of Stone Henge, to battles with St. Patrick of Ireland, Tristan and Ronald consider the complex history and evolving perceptions of these enigmatic figures.Presented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan, the producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.Theme music from Motion Array, all other music from Epidemic SoundsThe Ancients is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here:https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK
Chapter 1: Who are the ancient Druids?
Because this is quite a topic, isn't it, Ronald? Shroud is doing quite a lot of mystery. And the source material that we have for the Druids in ancient history some 2,000 years ago, I mean, what types do we have?
We have quite a lot of comments by people who didn't have Druids. We have absolutely nothing from the Druids themselves. They never committed anything to writing, or if they did, none of it survived. We actually have two different bodies of testimony instead. One is from Greek and Roman writers, some of whom lived at the time of Druids, but only one of whom might actually have met them.
And we have stories about Druids from the medieval Christian Irish, but writing at a time long after Druids had ceased to exist. So the problem with the first lot is that most of them are hostile. They're serving the Roman Empire, and the Roman Empire depended on having an empire by pleading that they conquered people for their own good, to civilize them.
And they accused the Druids, most of them, of being the worst sort of barbaric priest, founded on fear, ignorance, tyranny, with a particularly tacky sideline and human sacrifice.
Chapter 2: What sources provide information about Druids?
The problem with the Irish is, of course, that they were writing long after Druid ceased to exist, even though they were in their own people, and again, provided a range of views, some deeply Christian and hostile, others favorable, but we have no idea which of these are fantasies. They may all be.
I mean, it's interesting you say that. I mean, if we focus first on those Greek and Roman sources, Ronald. So, as you say, there's a clear bias in the writing, is there, to when they are talking about Druids in an area that they're coming into contact with. They've already got in that mind this idea that they are civilized people, they are civilizations.
And Druids being so different to them, do they almost kind of become an epitome of barbarian life in their rise in the areas that they're going into?
Yeah, that's absolutely right. They don't become an epitome of barbarian life in general because the Romans have been epitomizing barbarians for centuries beforehand. And the Romans also epitomize as savages. people within their own society whom they don't like. For example, they accuse the Jews and the Christians who weren't conformed to their religion of sexual malpractices and human sacrifice.
This common theme that you pin human sacrifice on people you don't like is universally Roman. The double standard until recently is because there are plenty of Christians and Druids around in the modern world, and they've preserved writings that prove the hostile Romans wrong. We don't believe the Romans who accuse them of these horrors, but the Druids have left nobody to speak for them.
So a lot of people have accepted what the Romans say about them on face value, which is a bit dangerous considering the bigger picture.
I think you're absolutely right. And you can absolutely look at that in other parts of the Mediterranean world too, where you only have the Greek and Roman sources in regards to the literature for that time. I mean, Ronald, I must also ask, you mentioned right at the start, so Northwestern Europe.
So back 2000 years ago, whereabouts geographically are we talking about with Northwestern Europe and where the Druids lived?
Specifically, they're identified by ancient and medieval writers in what's now France and Belgium and what's now the British Isles.
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Chapter 3: Did the Druids practice human sacrifice?
If only one day, I mean, because I mean, just to bring up a couple of examples, I was at Colchester Castle Museum a year or so ago, Ronald, and saw the doctor's grave that also used to have association with Druids and also items like the Cavernham crown.
So those items are out there, but as you've mentioned there, so it's very much because there's no inscription saying this was owned by a Druid, it's very much up for debate whether they were possessed by Druids.
That's exactly right. The equipment found in the grave at Colchester is definitely that of the doctor. These are medical instruments. If Druids were experts in medicine as well as spirituality, then it could be a Druid's grave as well, but it might not be.
There are various metal crowns, quite ornate, found in places like Deal and elsewhere, Deal and Kent, which have been claimed to be those of druids. They could be. They could also be those of chieftains. So you see where I'm going here. We're on thin ice wherever we tread.
Absolutely, indeed. Well, let's focus on the Roman sources, first of all, and let's kind of go through them, Ronald, and how they talk about Druids. What's some of our earliest Roman sources that start mentioning Druids?
The earliest of all is the big one, the one that we rely on most, and it's Julius Caesar, who is not only one of the best-known Roman generals and politicians, but also one of the best-known Roman authors. A hundred years of English schoolchildren studying classics had to make their way through Caesar's prose as part of their education.
So he's a familiar and beloved figure to modern Brits, or at least those who went through a traditional Victorian-style education. But here's the problem, that Caesar only mentions Druids once in his long and detailed account of his conquest of Gaul, which is now France and Belgium. which is definitely a place that had druids. And the passage concerned is a standalone.
It isn't in Caesar's usual style, and it actually contradicts some of what he says in the rest of his book. Now, we know the book, which is his account of the Gallic War, was unfinished when Caesar died, and it was finished some years later by another author.
And so we aren't sure whether this passage is Caesar's work or it was stuck in by the other author because he felt that the narrative needed breaking up at that point. The reader needed a stock-taking rest in order to hear about the society of the Gauls in general. If it's Caesar giving the testimony, he was there, he'd have seen it. It's really important.
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Chapter 4: How did Roman writers portray the Druids?
That's like another part of the whole story of the druids, isn't it, Ronald? It's just the word druid and how it has evolved over the many centuries. It's almost, I guess, maybe like the word Celtic or elsewhere. I'm sure this is what you've done as well.
You can study the evolution of druids and who is associated with that word druid over centuries and millennia and be fascinated with how that changes too.
You're spot on, Tristan. Europeans, later Europeans, don't always need druids. Medieval Europeans didn't need them at all, apart from the medieval Irish, who made them heroic national figures or demonic national figures. They suddenly come back into the frame in the 16th century. when Northern Europeans start forming nation-states with their particular histories and traditions.
The whole thing about being Northern European is if you look back into the remote past, the very first charismatic figures you encounter are the Druids. And so they can do a lot of work for you if you're a Christian and emphasize the religious side, their demonic figures. But if you're a nationalist looking for your roots, they can be heroic figures. And there's a kind of domino effect.
The Germans start this. The French then follow. Scots follow. And last of all, the English come in about 100 years after the others. But Once the English invent Britain, in other words, they conquer Ireland and they unite with Scotland and Wales, there is a need for a common past for the new British super state.
Most of the national heroes of the component peoples have become heroes by killing other component peoples of the new British state. So William Wallace, Robert the Bruce killed the English. King Arthur kills the English. Owen Glyndwr and Llywelyn Griffith of Wales kill the English. And the Irish heroes like Finn McCool kill everybody else. So you have a desperate need for bonding figures.
The great common denominator is the Druids because they're behind everybody there and can be claimed by everybody. They become cement holding together a new national history.
Right, they become the cement. I mean, before I bring you back into ancient history and the Romans and their interactions with Druids, of course, in England, you have the figure of Boudicca, who's a massive figure, of course, at that time too, I presume.
Is there also a sense maybe in England with the Druids, was there a sense of them being kind of these resistance symbols alongside figures like Boudicca against the Romans 2,000 years ago? Or is that a bit too far to look at?
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Chapter 5: What role did Druids play in society?
And the lads go for it. They cross the water. They defeat the enemy army, and then they find that this is justified because they find that the native groves and shrines are full of evidence for horrific human sacrifice. So it was all worth it anyway. So what's the problem?
Well, the problem is that it's now accepted that Tacitus invented entire episodes in his histories and possibly entire characters. They're there to liven things up when the narrative's getting a bit dry and make points about the superiority of Roman civilization. and eulogize certain heroes. And actually, the narrative has been getting a bit dry at this point.
And suddenly, this stunning image comes in. So you have three points on a spectrum again, and the choice is up to you. One is that Tacitus made the entire thing up because he knew his readership would love it. Second, that he got the story from a superannuated legionary in a wine bar in Rome. And And we don't know how reliable it was.
Third, that this is an eyewitness account from Agricola himself or somebody else, a mate of Agricola, who'd seen service with Suetonius Paulinus, so every word is objectively true.
That's an enormously wide spectrum, and we can't be sure of where we are on any of it. It's also interesting, isn't it? I'd say if that's in Tacitus, but I did not realize that that was the only mention in Roman literature of Druids in Britain. They're not associated with Julius Caesar in Britain or the initial Roman invasion with Aulus Plautius.
It's only on the island of Anglesey that that word is used. And you've also highlighted how that word Druid is used sometimes as a word for priest as well. So Yes, the evidence, as you say, it is extremely limited, isn't it? Or at least evidence we could say the word Druid is mentioned.
Yeah, welcome to a historical quagmire. And it might be said that Tacitus never says that Anglesey was a particularly Druidic island or a holy island. Instead, because it's offshore, it's the ideal place for resistance base. Because the Romans have to struggle across a dangerous bit of water to get at you. So you can kind of hit them when they're drenched and seasick on the beach.
Except, of course, it doesn't work.
Absolutely. And how has this particular story involving Druids? Because we've already talked about imparting the legacy of the Druids and how it evolves down into the last couple of centuries. How does this story affect the development, the view of Anglesey over the centuries and millennia following? Does it become closely associated with Druids or seen as a holy isle?
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Chapter 6: How has the perception of Druids evolved over time?
Is it interesting that with that Irish literature, these heroes and associations with Druids at a time that Christianity is there, that the Druids, dare I say, brought in to Christianity in Ireland?
Yes, like the Romans and Greeks, medieval Christian Irish writers found two different uses for Druids. Most of the time, they are evil pagan priests, and their whole function in the stories is to get trashed by Christian saints.
St. Patrick, is St. Patrick someone who fights a druid? Or am I? I think I'm right in that, is it? You're absolutely spot on.
There we go. He is chronologically the first of the saints to take on druids, at least in the mythology, hagiography. Yes, he takes on the evil druids of King Leary, the king of Ireland. And, of course, he defeats them and destroys some of them.
This could be an actual memory of how Christianity came into Ireland, but there's a suspicious resemblance to the account of the contest of Moses and Aaron and the wicked priests of Pharaoh in the Old Testament.
It's so interesting once again, and as we've already covered in this chat, how the Druid, the name, the word, evolves over those centuries and millennia, and going from ancient times to medieval Ireland and Georgian Britain, and even now into the 20th and 21st centuries, Ronald. I mean, the word Druid is so popular today, hence why we're doing an episode all about it.
But what legacy do the Druids have today? Well,
The Druids have an immense legacy and have had since the 17th century in that they're so good to think with because of these incredibly vivid and yet contrasting images provided by the ancient writers and the Irish. So if you want heroic ancestors, the Druids are tailor-made, being patriotic, brave, green, and wise.
If you want to condemn the ancient world, or at least the non-civilized, non-Christian bits of it, as the kind of thing we grew out of, then they are the epitome of the nastiest kind of pagan priest. And so at the present day, they still do the same thing.
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Chapter 7: What is the significance of mistletoe in Druid culture?
Well, I also love the fact that we can also end with another association with Pliny the Elder, such a fascinating source. And this has been a brilliant chat, Ronald, all about the Druids. You've done books on the Druids in the past, and they are called?
The Druids, unimaginatively. And more imaginatively, the bigger one is Blood and Mistletoe. The Druids was a pop book for people who wanted a quick hit. Blood and Mistletoe has the full story with all the source references.
Well, fantastic. Ronald, it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to come on the podcast today.
It's been a huge pleasure, Tristan.
Well, there you go. There was Professor Ronald Hutton talking all things The Druids. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening to it. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.
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