Terry Gross
Appearances
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
In 2019, music critic John Pirellis wrote in the New York Times, Eilish, age 17, has spent the last few years establishing herself as the negation of what a female teen pop star used to be. She doesn't play innocent or ingratiating or flirtatious or perky or cute. Instead, she's sullen, depressive, death-haunted, sly, analytical and confrontational, all without raising her voice.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
But on a related note, you often dress on videos and in performance on stage in really baggy clothes. And I was thinking, since you grew up with a lot of hip-hop, in a lot of hip-hop performances on stage and in videos, the dancers or the women in the videos are usually dressed, and especially earlier in the period when you were growing up, were dressed in really...
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
tight and scanty kind of clothes. And the men are wearing like baggy hoodies and pants that are so baggy they're like falling down. And in that sense, did you take your cue from the men in hip hop in terms of dress as opposed to the women?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is nominated for seven Grammys. His new solo album is called For Crying Out Loud. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Let's start with a song from Hit Me Hard and Soft. This is L'Amour de ma Vie, which is French for The Love of My Life.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
I want to play Ocean Eyes, which is the first thing that you recorded together. You put it on SoundCloud. It went viral for reasons I don't understand how things by people unknown go viral. But it did. To be honest with you, Terry, I also don't understand. I don't understand either. Good. Thank you for the validation.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
So I want to play that song because, Billy, you were talking earlier about how when you started recording when you were 13, you were much younger, your voice was different. But, Phineas, I want to ask you first. I think not many teenage boys would think like, oh, I want to hang out and write songs with and record with my younger sister who's 13. What made you think, oh, Billy has to sing this?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Because I know initially you were going to write it for your band.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Okay, so let's listen to Ocean Eyes as recorded by the 13-year-old Billie Eilish and the 17 or 18? I was 18. 18-year-old Phineas. So here it is.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
That was Ocean Eyes, the first song that Billie Eilish and Phineas recorded together, a song written by Phineas, recorded at home that went viral and really launched their careers. Your mother, when she was homeschooling you, gave you classes on songwriting. Are there insights that she gave you both that stuck with you?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
If you're just joining us, my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, and their latest album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. We'll be right back after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. As you probably know, they're siblings who write songs together. She sings on their albums. He produces and plays several instruments. They've been writing and recording together since she was 13 and he was 18. Considering the number of records they've broken in the last few years, they're more than popular.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
I want to play another song from your new album, Hit Me Hard and Soft. And this song is called Skinny. And Billy, it's talking about how people think you look happy because you're skinny, you know, that you lost weight. But you're right, but I still cry. Did losing weight make a difference in your life? And do you like bounce back and forth?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Because that's something so many people in your audience would relate to.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
That's a great relationship to have. Let's hear the song. This is Skinny from Billie Eilish's new album, which is called Hit Me Hard and Soft.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billy Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Billy, it strikes me you're singing more in a fuller voice. What's changing about your voice and how you choose to use it?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
That's Skinny, and my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas, and their new album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. I think some of your fans think that you're reading their mind or telling their story. Mm-hmm.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Phineas, you have a new album, and I want to play a song from that. So I want to end with Family Feud because your family is so important to you both and the way you still operate as a family because I think your parents are often touring with you, or at least they used to. So this is your song, Phineas. It's from your new album. Do you want to just say a couple of words about writing it?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billy Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you coming on our show, and good luck with the rest of your tours.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billie Eilish and Phineas' latest album together is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. It's currently nominated for seven Grammys. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Our critic-at-large John Power spends his time leapfrogging between movies, books, TV shows, music, and sporting events. He didn't get to review everything he liked this year. So what he does is each year at the end of the year, he chooses a few things he didn't get to that he still wants to celebrate.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
This year's edition includes everything from a comic performance to a political documentary to a great moment at the Paris Olympics.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
John Powers is our critic at large. By the way, the first thing that he talked about at the top of his review was the novel All Fours by Miranda July. And coincidentally, Thursday, Miranda July will be my guest. If you're one of over 100 million people in the U.S. on TikTok, that may end on January 19th.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
A new law is forcing the Beijing-based company to find a non-Chinese buyer for the site or face a ban in the U.S. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we'll look at what this means and if the Supreme Court or Trump could intervene. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Did you want to do a whispery voice? Was that like a style choice or just like that's the way your voice sounds?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
I want to play a track because I like the instrumentation, the arrangement so much, and it's called The Diner. So Phineas, do you want to say a little bit about the instrumental track of this?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
They're a phenomenon. Their album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?, was the second in Grammy history to win in the major categories Best Record, Album, Song, and New Artist all in the same year. Phineas was the youngest person to receive a Grammy for Producer of the Year, non-classical.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
That was The Diner from the new Billie Eilish album, Hit Me Hard and Soft. And my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas. Phineas, you're not on all of the current tour that Billie is on, and you've just released your second solo album. Does that have significant meaning in terms of the nature of your music partnership?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billy was the youngest to win two Oscars, one for the theme for the Bond film No Time to Die and another for What Was I Made For from the Barbie movie. She collaborated on both songs with Phineas. They're continuing to break records. Billie was the youngest most listened to artist on Spotify this year.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billy, can you talk a little bit about when you were a teenager and you had all these like teenage teenagers, especially teenage girls as like such dedicated fans? What was it like for you to grow up? as a teenage star with so many teenage listeners, kind of idolizing you.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
And then judging from what I've seen and read about you, you've been kind of insecure about yourself, not necessarily of your music, but for any insecurity you have, to have all these people turning you into an idol must have been, or maybe was, a little disorienting? Definitely.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Well, you were homeschooled, so it's not like you were hanging out in the schoolyard or in the classrooms with your peers.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is now nominated for seven Grammys, including all the major categories. Each of its tracks reached over 150 million streams on Spotify. Phineas also has an independent career as a producer and recording artist. His second solo album was recently released, called For Cryin' Out Loud. Billie spent her teen years in front of her fans and the press.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Phineas, what's it been like for you, especially early on when Billy was very young and you were still in your teens, your late teens? What was it like for you to have an audience dominated by teenage girls when you're a guy and you're also older? You're four or five years older than Billy.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billie, I've read that some girls or young women in the audience are throwing their bras onto the stage when you perform. How often does that happen? Do you have any idea how that started? I mean, that's like a classic. Well, it used to be panties that, you know, women would throw at male stars, you know.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Because I think there are a lot of couples who separate who remain friends, but they don't want to be romantically involved anymore, and they want more freedom outside of the home. But I could see where there'd also be a lot of discomfort and tension and nervousness around each other. So if there's anything that you can offer about how that arrangement worked out? Yeah, I mean...
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Yet this flattens it into sociology and self-help. July's mind is far too unruly and interesting for that. John goes on to describe the book as perverse, unrepentant, sometimes dirty, and often laugh-out-loud funny.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
My guest is Miranda July. Her novel All Fours is on many best books of the year lists. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
All Four's story revolves around a 45-year-old woman, a slightly famous artist, writer, and performer, who decides to take a break from the routines she's stuck in and drive from her home in L.A. to New York. Her husband thinks it's a good idea and even suggests the best route for the drive.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
But about 30 minutes away from home, she stops at a gas station and feels this electric connection to a young man there, and he seems to feel it too. They end up having an affair in a motel room she rents and redecorates, and she spends the entire three weeks there. Their affair is both sexual and chaste. They're both married. He won't engage sexually, which would be disloyal to his wife.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Miranda July. Her films include You, Me, and Everyone We Know and Kajillionaire. Her new novel, All Fours, is on many 2024 best of lists. It's about a woman wanting to shake up her life. She's thinking of leaving her marriage and is having a very erotic affair.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
When she discovers she's entering perimenopause, she fears the best part of her life may be ending and she may lose her libido. She worries about getting older. There are parallels to Miranda July's life. I want to ask you about being the parent of a non-binary child, which is the position more and more parents seem to be in. How old is your child now? Twelve.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Yeah, so they use the pronoun they, them. What are some of the things you have to deal with as the parent of a non-binary child in terms of even questions like, do you want your child to take hormones? Do you want them to have a puberty block or do they want to have it? Is your voice going to take precedence over theirs or do you hope to be on the same page?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Do you want to just follow what they want knowing that they're not an adult yet and that their mind could possibly change? There's so many questions I think that the parents of non-binary children have to deal with. And especially now in a world where that's being like demonized in politics.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
But they touch and dance, and the intentional eroticism becomes all-consuming for her. But then the three weeks are up. She returns home and has enormous trouble reentering her life as a wife and mother. Miranda July is also a filmmaker, actor, performance artist, and visual artist. Miranda July, welcome to Fresh Air. It's such a good book. I really enjoyed reading it.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Of course, yeah. Have you changed a lot having more space in your life on your own? Because I would imagine you co-parent with your former husband and that you don't have your child every day to take care of. And in some ways, that's a real loss. And in other ways, it gains you some independence and personal time.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And I wonder what that shift in time and that shift in the balance of independence versus having somebody dependent on you all the time has changed you for better or worse, has changed your life. Or for better and worse.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
My guest is Miranda July. Her latest novel is called All Fours. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And I'm looking forward to talking with you about it. So you were afraid to write this book and what people would think of you. Elaborate on what your biggest fears were.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Miranda July was a bit afraid of what people would think of her after publishing her second novel, All Fours. The book is partly about sexuality and has some very explicit sexual scenes. But that's true of many books.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
This is fresh air. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Miranda July. Her latest novel, All Fours, is on many best of the year book lists. So I want to talk about your formative years. You gravitated toward punk as a teenager. And what drew you to it? And what were your first experiences listening to punk rock or, you know, going to clubs?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
You actually moved to Portland to be part of the Riot Grrrl scene.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
One of the jobs that you had early on while trying to support yourself, I guess, while you were doing your art, was working at a peep show. How and why did you get that job?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And you're separated by glass, right? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
What did you learn doing that about sexuality or about men, about yourself, about what it means to get really turned on looking at somebody who's basically on exhibit behind glass? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Were you able to see the Peep Show as a form of performance art?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
I have one more peep show question. So when men were staring at you and telling you their sexual fantasies, did you find it at all flattering or really creepy? Like what was your experience of that watching them? Like they're there to watch you, but you're watching them.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
You think you're looking at me, you're not.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
What were some of the conversations that you know about about your book that you found most interesting? Like what were some of the themes that you're glad your book provoked? You know, the themes in the conversations.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Miranda July's latest novel is called All Fours. This is fresh air.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
This is Fresh Air. Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead is going to review a newly released recording of a concert he attended in 1978 by pianist Sun Ra and his orchestra. Kevin says the colorful Philadelphia bandleader didn't always connect with traditional jazz audiences, but he'd found a second home doing so in Baltimore. ¦
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Well, one thing about getting older is I think Wikipedia has relieved the burden of that because for most people, their birth date is on the Wikipedia page. And so you can't really hide it even if you want to anymore. And I resent the fact that women especially are supposed to hide their age. Like, why can't we own it? Why can't we proclaim it?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Why should we have to reinforce the idea that a woman getting older is a really terrible thing?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead reviewed Sun Ra, Lights on a Satellite, live at the Left Bank. Kevin's latest book is Play the Way You Feel, The Essential Guide to Jazz Stories on Film. If you'd like to catch up on fresh air interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Billie Eilish and Phineas, or with Ronnie Chang of The Daily Show and the series Interior Chinatown,
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
or about TikTok and its uncertain future, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash freshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. I'm Tariq Rose.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Her larger fear was the theme of a woman reaching midlife and entering perimenopause, the time in a woman's life when she's transitioning into menopause and is experiencing some of the many symptoms associated with that time of life. For her main character, it's the fear of losing her libido, dealing with mysterious moods and anxiety, and the thought of being seen as an old woman.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
There's a line in your book where you're buying something from an older woman. And you think about how you sometimes really hate old women. Well, it's not – yeah.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
So the character, this is where the character has gone to the hotel. She's felt this like erotic charge from this younger man. She's 45. He's 31. Who she met at, who she looked at at a gas station and he looked back at her. And then they met briefly in a diner.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
So she's unpacking her suitcase at this motel and the reading is about what she's thinking as she's unpacking her clothes and which one she's going to leave in the suitcase and which one she's going to actually unpack and wear.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Did you share a similar almost fear of older women or a dislike of them that your character has?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
But the book has gotten the opposite reaction she feared. It's on many of this year's 10 best lists, including the New York Times, in which it was described as this year's literary conversation piece, and in The New Yorker, where it was described as a study of crisis, the crisis of being how middle age changes sex, marriage, and ambition.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Your character is experiencing things differently. and fears that relate to perimenopause. But some of the things she's experiencing, she doesn't know relate to perimenopause until she actually goes to her gynecologist. Was it that way for you that you had symptoms of perimenopause that you were attributing to other things?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
So one of the things the book is about is the feeling that you need to change your life, but not knowing how to do it and knowing that there will be consequences and rewards if you do. And part of the consequences will be for the other people in your life. If you're leaving a marriage, if you're breaking up a home in a way that will affect your young child, um,
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And I know you've experienced similar things, and this might be too personal, but was there a lot you had to weigh before changing your life, knowing that it might be the right thing for you, but there would also be consequences that everyone in your family would be facing, including you, because I'm sure there'd be a downside as well.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
July's moving, very funny book is at once buoyant about the possibilities of starting over and clear-eyed about its costs. When our critic John Powers reviewed it, he said, I gasped in surprise at All Fours, Miranda July's hilariously unpredictable novel. All Fours is sometimes described as a book about perimenopause, the transitional stage before menopause.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
So this may be too personal, but please don't answer it if it is. You and your former husband, is that the right way to describe it, lived together for a while with your child, but more as friends than as a married couple. How did that work? I think a lot of people would be curious about that.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
We listened to excerpts from both interviews, starting with the more recent one recorded in 2019 when he'd just written his memoir titled Me. We talked about an early lesson John learned about handling stardom, his difficult childhood, how he became addicted to shopping and collecting, and his early musical influences. So the book has a very candid description of your life.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
And of course, you'd think he was gay. But, you know, he wasn't publicly out and. I think it was an era when it was like it was okay to be gay as long as you didn't mention it, as long as like no one had to hear it.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
You know, I was reading a 1973 Rolling Stone interview with you in which you said that your act is going to become a little more Liberace-ized. And I thought, wow, 1973, you were thinking about making your act more Liberace-ish.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
That was Elton John speaking with me in 2013 from Vegas during his million-dollar piano residency at Caesars Palace. I should note here, the piano really did cost one million dollars.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Before we get into some of the candid details that you write about in the book, you were in the band early in your career as the keyboard player in Long John Baldry's band. The band was called Bluesology. You tell this really funny story at the beginning of the book where he had just had a big hit.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Oh, I love Blossom Deary. We'll link to the full versions of both my 2013 and 2019 interviews with Elton John in our show notes. Our Fresh Air Plus bonus episodes are produced by Nick Anderson. Our engineer for this episode is Adam Staniszewski. I'm Terry Gross. Thanks for your support of our work here at Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
So now he was famous and, you know, young women were coming to the concert and kind of like really getting getting excited and screaming. And he says on mic, he says, why don't you say what he said?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
What did that teach you about stardom and how to handle it?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Of course, also with you, when you had young girls screaming at you and everything like you were gay, they didn't know that.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
That's right. That's right. So what was it like for you knowing you were gay, knowing they didn't realize you were gay and they were probably having all these like sexual fantasies about you? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
If you're already a Fresh Air Plus supporter, thank you so much for your ongoing support of our show and of NPR. But if you haven't signed up for Plus yet, we hope you will. You'll get weekly bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening for every episode of our podcast. And you'll be supporting the NPR shows you listen to, including Fresh Air. You can find out more at plus.npr.org. Now to the show.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Well, speaking of you and John Baldry being gay, when you decided you were going to marry a woman when you were in your early 20s, he said to you, John, you're gay. You can't marry her. And what was your reaction? Because I don't think you had acknowledged that to yourself yet.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Hi, it's Terry Gross here with a special bonus episode. It's the season of giving, and in that spirit, we thought we'd give all our podcast listeners something extra. Bonus episodes like this one, curated selections from our archive, are usually only available for our Fresh Air Plus supporters. Today, we're giving everyone a chance to hear it.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
It's remarkable that you could be like a rock musician and remain a virgin until you were 23. You might be the only person.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
You said you wanted to play music, but on the other hand, you write that early on, like when you were a sideman with John Baldry, that you thought what you really wanted to do was write songs. And you had auditioned for Liberty Records and they told you you were not ever going to be a pop star. You weren't pop star material.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
So did you think like you really weren't cut out to be a – like maybe they were right that you weren't cut out to be a performer, that your job should be behind the scenes or as a sideman? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
You said you had no self-esteem or low self-esteem. Were the costumes, the crazy clothing that you wore, the big glasses, all that, was that in part armor to cover up your low self-esteem? No. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Today we have two interviews I recorded with Elton John. After a career of more than 50 years of extravagance and extraordinary popularity, Elton John finished his farewell tour last year. But he performed at Lincoln Center in October of this year at the premiere of the documentary Elton John, Never Too Late. That documentary just started streaming on Disney+.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
It sounds like a lot of your childhood years weren't great. Your parents bickered all the time. Your mother remarried, and you liked your stepfather, but they bickered all the time. They got married when she was 16 and he was 17. You wonder if they were ever... if they ever should have been together in the first place.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
And your mother sounds like she was a very moody and frequently angry person who could hold a grudge. And you even describe how when you, you don't remember this, but I think it was an aunt who told you that when your mother was toilet training you, she'd beat you with a hairbrush until you were bloody and she'd beat you until you used the potty.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
So is that kind of typical of what your childhood was like?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Well, you became an obsessive shopper later in life and you collected everything.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Elton John's music spans genres and generations, from Rocketman to the soundtrack for Disney's animated feature The Lion King. In 2019, he executive produced a biopic of his own life called Rocketman. It was a box office hit and won John and his longtime collaborator, lyricist Bernie Taupin, the Academy Award for Best Original Song. I spoke with Elton John twice on Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
He was an amateur trumpet player, wasn't he?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Yeah, so why was he so set? I realize he didn't like rock and roll, but still he must have appreciated that you were such a talented musician. And you were studying classical music, too, at a conservatory.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Right. You could say that, but it also, let's face it, you've had an amazing life. He must have been so proud once you became famous and hopefully a little embarrassed that he tried so hard to discourage you from doing what you do.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
He didn't even try to capitalize on your fame? Like, that's my son.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Just curious, how much do you think of that as like the music, that it was rock and roll? And do you think any of that estrangement was because you were gay?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
That was an excerpt of the interview I recorded with Elton John in 2019. Now we'll hear an excerpt from our 2013 conversation when he was in Vegas during his million-dollar piano residency at Caesar's Palace. In this excerpt, we talked about how he was influenced by the flamboyant pianist Liberace. We are recording this on Thursday, September 19th, right before you perform at the Emmy Awards.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Right. And our listeners will be hearing this after you've performed at the Emmy Awards. And you're doing a tribute to Liberace because the movie about him, Behind the Candelabra, is nominated for like 15 awards. And who knows how many, if any, it will have won by the time this was broadcast. But anyways, you know, he was you could say, oh, you'd look at Liberace.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas. Their latest album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, their brother and sister and songwriting and performing partners. And their new album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. Phineas, what's it been like for you, especially early on when Billy was very young and you were still in your teens, your late teens?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
What was it like for you to have an audience dominated by teenage girls when you're a guy and you're also older? You're four or five years older than Billy.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billie, I've read that some girls or young women in the audience are throwing their bras onto the stage when you perform. How often does that happen? Do you have any idea how that started? I mean, that's like a classic. Well, it used to be panties that, you know, women would throw at male stars, you know.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
But on a related note, you often dress on videos and in performance on stage in really baggy clothes. And I was thinking, since you grew up with a lot of hip-hop, in a lot of hip-hop performances on stage and in videos, the dancers or the women in the videos are usually dressed, and especially earlier in the period when you were growing up, were dressed in really...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
tight and scanty kind of clothes. And the men are wearing like baggy hoodies and pants that are so baggy they're like falling down. And in that sense, did you take your cue from the men in hip hop in terms of dress as opposed to the women?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Phineas, you have a new album and I want to play a song from that. So I want to end with Family Feud because your family is so important to you both and the way you still operate as a family, because I think your parents are often touring with you, or at least they used to. So this is your song, Phineas. It's from your new album. Do you want to just say a couple of words about writing it?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billy Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you coming on our show, and good luck with the rest of your tours.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
When it's just the two of us Sleep all day, I'll wake you up When it's just the two of us That's Family Feud from Phineas' new album for Cryin' Out Loud.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billie Eilish and Phineas' latest album together is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. My next guests are Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're partners in their marriage, as well as in their production company, and she makes regular appearances on his CBS show, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
During the COVID lockdown, when he hosted The Late Show from their home, she was his partner on the show, acting as a producer, sound engineer, and serving as an audience of one. I loved hearing her laughing at his jokes.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
They're typically not partners in the kitchen because they have different approaches to cooking, but now they have a new cookbook they co-authored with the great title, Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves. Shrimp are well represented in the book. because Stephen and Evie grew up in coastal South Carolina, where they still have a home.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Each recipe in the book is preceded by the story behind it and memories associated with it, so you actually learn about Stephen and Evie as you read the recipes. If you watch Colbert's show, you know he likes a good drink. The book has a whole chapter on drinks. Each episode of The Late Show opens with a monologue, typically satirizing a major event in the news.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Colbert doesn't pull his punches, especially when it comes to threats against democracy. Stephen, Evie, welcome to Fresh Air. It's such a pleasure to have you back on the show, Stephen, and to talk to you, Evie. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Oh, yeah. So first question to you, Stephen, how do you find time to cook? I can't believe that you find time. I don't have time to cook and I don't have half the job that you do. I make like omelets and heat roasted chicken. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. As you probably know, they're siblings who write songs together. She sings on their albums, he produces and plays several instruments. They've been writing and recording together since she was 13 and he was 18.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
So, Evie, if Colbert is doing all this cooking but doesn't eat it, do you get to eat it? And do you do a lot of the cooking that you actually both eat?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
When I was growing up, my mother wasn't much of a cook, but she had two, like, fantastic dishes that she made. And I always look forward to those. But Monday nights, I'd almost be in tears because Mondays are bad enough when you're going to school.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
And she'd sometimes make broiled mackerel, which is a very bitter fish, especially when you're a kid. Yeah, and with, like, canned string beans. Oh, God. I know. Yeah. And lettuce with no dressing on it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
And I'd nearly be in tears. Later in the week, the food got better. So I'm wondering with each of you, the recipes in your book look absolutely sumptuous. But were there meals that you had that nearly brought you to tears when you were growing up? Oh, my God.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Considering the number of records they've broken in the last few years, they're more than popular. They're a phenomenon. Their album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?, was the second in Grammy history to win in the major categories Best Record, Album, Song, and New Artist, all in the same year. Phineas was the youngest person to receive a Grammy for Producer of the Year, non-classical.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Oh, no water? You're supposed to add a can of water.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Have you ever brought to tears anticipating something your mother was going to serve for dinner?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Seasonally, yeah, yeah. Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert have a new book called Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves. We'll be back after a short break. This is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, the sister and brother music partners who are a global phenomenon. We'll talk about working together, becoming famous in their teens. family, how her voice is changing, and how her signature baggy clothes were inspired by hip-hop.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview with Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're married. She makes regular appearances on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. They're partners in a production company. And now they've co-authored a new cookbook called Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Evie, are there things you had to sacrifice in your life when Stephen became famous and had this kind of consuming career and you had children?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billy was the youngest to win two Oscars, one for the theme for the Bond film No Time to Die, and another for What Was I Made For? from the Barbie movie. She collaborated on both songs with Phineas. They're continuing to break records. Billie was the youngest most listened to artist on Spotify this year.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Right. Then you're going to be home. I mean, you're not traveling to different locations.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
You're both from prominent families. Steve and your father died when you were 10. But before that, he'd been a director of a program at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. And he worked at the National Institutes of Health. And then the family moved to South Carolina. And he became the first vice president for academic affairs at the Medical University of South Carolina.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
That was in 1969. Yeah. And, Evie, your father was a prominent civil litigator. He served in the South Carolina House of Representatives for three terms. He was a Democrat. Because your fathers were prominent, were you expected to be model children? Huh.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is now nominated for six Grammys, including all the major categories. Each of its tracks reached over 150 million streams on Spotify. Phineas also has an independent career as a producer and recording artist. His second solo album was recently released called For Crying Out Loud. Billie spent her teen years in front of her fans and the press.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Stephen, I've known about your deep faith and Catholicism since The Daily Show when you were kind of like the religion correspondent and you had a regular feature called This Week in God.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Yes. And, you know, you still talk about religion on The Late Show. And you satirize religion. You satirize Catholicism. You satirize the Pope. So I was really surprised when the Pope invited you to the Vatican as part of a larger event. And I don't remember what the event was, but Jim Gaffigan was there. I think David Sedaris was there.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
In 2019, music critic John Pirellis wrote in the New York Times, Eilish, age 17, has spent the last few years establishing herself as the negation of what a female teen pop star used to be. She doesn't play innocent or ingratiating or flirtatious or perky or cute. Instead, she's sullen, depressive, death-haunted, sly, analytical and confrontational, all without raising her voice.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Did you get to meet the Pope one-on-one?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Let's start with a song from Hit Me Hard and Soft. This is L'Amour de ma Vie, which is French for The Love of My Life.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
I'd like you each to leave us with your favorite comfort food.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
When you say carefree years, do you mean before your father died?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Yeah, taste is powerful. It's true.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
And also working, it sounds like working together so closely on the show worked out okay.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Well, I don't cook fancy things or ambitious things, but I enjoyed seeing the recipes. I enjoyed all the anecdotes. So I'm so glad we got to talk. It's just been such a pleasure and a joy to speak with you both. You too. Thank you so much. And to you. And to you. Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert have a new book called Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terri Gross.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billy Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Billy, it strikes me you're singing more in a fuller voice. What's changing about your voice and how you choose to use it?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Did you want to do a whispery voice? Was that like a style choice or just like that's the way your voice was?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Yeah. And Phineas, I assume you do the arrangements.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
I want to play a track because I like the instrumentation, the arrangement so much, and it's called The Diner. So Phineas, do you want to say a little bit about the instrumental track of this?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Later, Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're married, she does bits with him on a CBS late-night show, and they've collaborated on a new cookbook.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
That was The Diner from the new Billie Eilish album, Hit Me Hard and Soft. And my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas. Phineas, you're not on all of the current tour that Billie is on, and you've just released your second solo album. Does that have significant meaning in terms of the nature of your music partnership?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billy, can you talk a little bit about when you were a teenager and you had all these like teenage teenagers, especially teenage girls as like such dedicated fans? What was it like for you to grow up? as a teenage star with so many teenage listeners, kind of idolizing you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
And then judging from what I've seen and read about you, you've been kind of insecure about yourself, not necessarily of your music, but for any insecurity you have, to have all these people turning you into an idol must have been, or maybe was, a little disorienting? Definitely.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Well, you were homeschooled, so it's not like you were hanging out in the schoolyard or in the classrooms with your peers.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
You were the music director and band leader at The Late Night with Stephen Colbert from its inception in 2015 until 2022. Toward the end of that period, which is also the period that you were nominated for a record number of Grammys in different categories. And you won five Grammys, including Album of the Year. Your now wife, Sulayka Jouad, she was very sick.
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
She had had a recurrence of leukemia that she'd had about 11 years before that. And she needed a bone marrow transplant, her second one, because she had one during the first occurrence. And those are just awful. I mean, basically, they give you this very, very heavy-duty chemo that nearly kills you. It kills your immune system so that you don't fight the transplant.
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
But a lot of people come like within like an inch of death and then have to, you know, recover and your immune system shot. So you can't be around anything or anybody that might expose you to any kind of germ. What was it like for you to be living in two worlds at once? You're getting all these accolades, you're performing on the Grammys, you're You're still at late night with Stephen Colbert.
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
People are seeing you every night. You have a reputation of joy, of bringing joy to where you are. And meanwhile, your wife is really suffering. I'm sure you are suffering just, you know, watching her. What was it like to have two worlds at the same time?
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Can you play one of the lullabies that you sent her?
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
That was beautiful, John.
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
You know, the beginning, getting back to Beethoven, the beginning of that reminded me of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Am I crazy for saying that, by the way?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
It's always a joy when John Batiste joins us at the piano, and that's how I felt about the session we recorded last week with him at the piano. Batiste was the bandleader and music director of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert from its premiere in 2015 until 2022.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
That same year, his album called We Are received 11 Grammy nominations in seven different categories and won five Grammys, including Album of the Year. He wrote the score for this year's film Saturday Night about the first SNL broadcast. He also appears in the film as musician Billy Preston, the first musical guest. Batiste is a jazz musician who also studied classical music at Juilliard,
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
where he got his B.A. and M.A. and is now on the board. But his music is more expansive than jazz and classical, as you can tell just by the varied Grammy categories in which he's been nominated for or won awards. Jazz performance, American root song, contemporary classical composition,
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
jazz instrumental, R&B album, improvised jazz solo, pop duo or group performance, and original score for the animated film Soul. He currently has two Grammy nominations, Best Music Film and Best Song Written for Visual Media, for the documentary American Symphony. The film is about composing his American Symphony and performing the premiere in Carnegie Hall.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
The film also developed into something totally unexpected, a document of the period his wife, Sulayka Jawad, was diagnosed with a recurrence of leukemia, which had been in remission for over 10 years. The occasion for his appearance today is his new album, Beethoven Blues. It features his reimaginings of Beethoven compositions.
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Since we're fortunate to have him at the piano, he'll play some of the music from that album and more. John Batiste, welcome back to Fresh Air. I love your new album. The documentary about you and your wife's bone marrow transplant was really moving, so it's a pleasure to have you back on our show. And how is she?
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
She sounds that way from the documentary, and I'm very glad to hear that. So I want to start with some music, and you are at the piano, so you will be playing it for us. And the lead track of your Beethoven Blues album is for Elise. And I think anyone who's taken piano lessons with any amount of classical music has had to learn this. And you do some really fascinating things with it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Why is it the lead track of the album?
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, and you learned it as a kid?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
So before you play it, I want to ask you, are you going to play it like you played it on the album? Because my understanding is you did a lot of improvising in real time for that recording. Or are you going to do different things with it now?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Okay, let's hear it. You're at the piano. Can you play it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
That was great. That's John Batiste at the piano at the studio of WNYC. And it's also the lead Beethoven tune on his new album, Beethoven Blues. And John, that sounded great. You know, you mentioned in, I think, your official statement about the album that you think Beethoven is really kind of connected to the blues, even though he's centuries before the blues.
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Can you just like illustrate what you mean by that? Like play some passage of Beethoven that makes you think of the blues?
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Tell me what you mean.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Don't you find it interesting that there are certain like harmonies, chords, rhythms that it took centuries or millennia to get to? You know, like jazz chords, gospel chords, like they weren't, quote, invented yet in Beethoven's time.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
So there's another Beethoven symphony excerpt that I'd like you to play for us, if you will. And it's from a symphony number five, which, again, is something like everybody knows. It's da-da-da-dum, that one.
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
So what do you hear in this that made you want to reimagine it, improvise on it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, love it. And so John Batiste's new album is called Beethoven Blues. He's performing for us at the piano from the studio of WNYC in New York. And everything that he's just played is also on his new album. We'll hear more with John Batiste after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
How familiar were you with the show?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
What I read about when Trevor Noah resigned is that you had just done a bit. And then without you knowing that Trevor Noah was resigning, he resigns on the air right after you're on. Were you on camera?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You were on camera.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Why did he do it that way?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Maybe he didn't want anybody to leak it.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Ah, that's a possibility, too.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
What was the expression on your face like as you heard him resigning?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You might have also been thinking, uh-oh, what happens to The Daily Show? What happens to my job?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
My guest is Ronnie Chang, a field correspondent on The Daily Show and one of the anchors. He co-stars on the new Hulu series, Interior Chinatown. His new comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow, December 17th. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
After Trevor Noah left, there was a roster of celebrity comics who anchored the show. And then there was a hiatus, I guess, over the summer.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
No, exactly. And then the correspondents started rotating who anchored the show. And I wasn't sure, like, is this a temporary thing? Have they decided against having one host or one celebrity comic hosting? And it's turned out so far to be the real thing with the correspondents.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Hosting, you know, anchoring, are you at liberty to say why the decision was made to have alternating correspondence anchor as opposed to one person or one famous comic?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Jon Stewart, who's back on the show once a week.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You've been in films. You're now the co-star of the series Interior Chinatown. And it's a cliche that the Asian guy is the best friend. Yes. But in a film where the main character is Asian, and much of the story is set in Chinatown, you're the best friend of the other Asian guy.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
It's kind of a theme of the series that the main character feels just kind of invisible. And he wants to be the star of his own life. So I want to play a clip from Interior Chinatown. And you and Jimmy O. Yang, the main character in the series, you're both working at a restaurant in Chinatown and don't really like the job. You're just doing it.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So in this scene from the first episode, you're both in the alleyway where the dumpster is. Yeah. And you're both talking and the Jimmy O. Yang character is talking about how he's like a minor character in his own life and invisible in the world. And he wants to be the main character. He wants to be the star of something. He wants to solve a murder mystery like they do on TV.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So this is the conversation between Yim and Jimmy O. Yang. He speaks first.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Okay. That was my guest, Ronnie Chang, with Jimmy O. Yang in a scene from Interior Chinatown. In the film Crazy Rich Asians, you have a real standout scene. You're kind of a minor character in it.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
But it's a great scene. Does it feel qualitatively different to be in a film with an Asian-themed story and largely Asian cast?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So correct me if I'm wrong, you're third generation Malaysian?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Chinese Malaysian. So what I read is that your parents moved to the U.S. when you were three. You stayed with family in Malaysia or Singapore, and then you moved a year later when you were four.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Did you recognize your parents?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is comic, actor, and political satirist Ronnie Chang. He became a correspondent for the satirical new show The Daily Show in 2015 after Trevor Noah asked him to audition. Now Chang is one of the rotating correspondents who anchor the show. He also co-stars in the new Hulu series Interior Chinatown.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So what was it like when they decided to move back to Malaysia?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
My guest is comic and actor Ronnie Chang. His new comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow. We'll be back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Renu Cheng, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
What was it like for you getting started in comedy in the U.S., being an immigrant and being of Chinese-Malaysian descent?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
What else did your father say to you when you found out you wanted to be a comedian?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So earlier you said that you didn't tell your parents when you were on The Daily Show. And they didn't know what The Daily Show was because they'd never seen it. It's not big in Malaysia. Did they start watching it after you felt like you were doing a decent job and they could watch it?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Wow. Did you think that that might be true?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Apparently your father was very funny and prided himself on that. Yes. What kind of sense of humor did he have? Did he tell jokes or stories?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You seem to have such an interesting perspective on the world and on comedy because you've lived and grown up in so many different countries. Sure. And traveled the world doing comedy, too. How helpful is that to you as a person and as a comic?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Ronny Chieng, thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been a pleasure.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Ronnie Chang's new Netflix comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming tomorrow, December 17th. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening back to the pop music made in 2024 and sees a pattern of women hitmakers who prize both aggression and vulnerability in various proportions. In songs by Charlie XCX, Sabrina Carpenter, Chapel Roan, and others, Ken has found the soundtrack to the past year's tumultuous times.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
It's a big achievement. That's not a small achievement. Sure.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Ken Tucker is Fresh Air's rock critic. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, my guests will be Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, the internationally famous brother and sister songwriting and music-making duo. We'll talk about what it was like to be homeschooled, become famous in their teens, and how their lives and music have changed as adults. They have a new album. I hope you'll join us.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberto Shorrock directs the show.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You deprive them of bragging rights.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
A line that really stands out to me in the bit that we just heard is, you know, why would you do that? Why would you become a comet? Why would you make jokes to people who don't care about your mental health? Yeah. Did your father say that or did you just come up with that? No, no.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
My dad never grabbed... But why did that occur to you to write that? Like... To people who don't care about your mental health. I thought that was very funny. I've never heard anybody put it that way.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
He had a memorable funny scene in Crazy Rich Asians as a wealthy investment banker in Singapore. Ronnie Chang has a new Netflix comedy special called Love to Hate It, which starts streaming tomorrow. He brings an international perspective to his comedy. He was born in Malaysia. where his grandparents emigrated from China.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So you grew up mostly in Malaysia, which is one bridge away from Singapore. You compared it to me to how New York is to New Jersey.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Or how Philadelphia is to New Jersey on the opposite side.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So were you exposed to much stand-up in Malaysia or Singapore?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You said you were introduced to Jewish people from Seinfeld.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld. So what did it make you think Jewish people were like?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Your new comedy special was filmed in Honolulu.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Where Doogie... Kamealoha. Yes, thank you. This is like a Doogie Howser adjacent series.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Yeah, a reboot that you were in. And you're very popular there. Or so you say. Yeah, sure. And you say you have a lot of MAGA friends there. And on The Daily Show, you spent a lot of time satirizing Trump.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So how do you get around arguing about politics with your mega friends?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
From age three to seven, he lived in Manchester, New Hampshire, where his parents attended college. Then the family returned to Malaysia, which is basically across the bridge from Singapore, so he spent a lot of time there. He attended college in Australia, where he got his B.A. in finance and his law degree, while also doing stand-up comedy. Let's start with a clip from his new comedy special.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You say you love America. This is the country that puts showbiz above everything.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
And then you get paid for saying F the president. And then money comes in and you say, if you did this in Malaysia, jail.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
But now Trump has an enemies list. He's threatening retribution and he's trying to revoke TV network broadcast licenses.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So how do you feel about insulting Trump now?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Well, I hope you're right.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Let's hear a clip from The Daily Show. And this is from the day after Kamala Harris conceded. So it's two days after Election Day. And you say Trump's promised a peaceful transfer of power. And then you say, let's hear it for the bare minimum of democracy. And here's the rest of the clip.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
This is from a section about how he and his wife aren't ready for children, but his wife had her eggs harvested for possible future use. He's imagining what his child, if he ever has one, might say to him.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
That's not really true about the money, I'm sure.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Okay. So you got on The Daily Show after Trevor Noah became the anchor and you knew him from performing at the same comedy festival in Melbourne, Australia, which is where you went to college. How surprised were you to get the call?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Bonnie Raitt is my guest, and we've asked her to bring with her some of her favorite recordings from the past, recordings that have really influenced her over the years. And, Bonnie Raitt, the next album, the next recording that you brought with you is B.B. King, and this one goes back to 1958. Rock Me Baby, tell me why you chose this one.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Bonnie Raitt, welcome to Fresh Air. Hi, Terry. It's a pleasure to be here. You've brought with you some of your favorite recordings, some of the recordings that have really influenced you over the years. So I'd like to start with a recording that you brought by Mississippi Fred McDowell. Write me a few lines. Tell me why you've chosen this. This was recorded in 1964.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Let's hear it. Rock Me Baby, B.B. King, recorded in 1958 and reissued on the B.B. King box set.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Bonnie Wright, do you think that there's a specific influence B.B. King has had on your singing or guitar playing?
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
I'm interested if it took you a long time in your career to feel comfortable recording something like this, recording outside of the genre that you're known for.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
That's Bonnie Raitt and her father, John Raitt. Well, I want to end with something from your Road Tested album. And this is I Can't Make You Love Me. It's a really beautiful ballad, very moving. Is this a favorite of yours, too?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
That's Mississippi Fred McDowell, one of the records that Bunny Raitt has brought with her today for us to listen to. Now, what was it like when you were actually traveling with him and opening for him? I mean, was that one of the first times that you met one of the blues musicians who you liked so much from record?
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
So you played this kind of little trick and he did improv on, or whatever, on film for you. What did he bring to that audition that he didn't realize was an audition?
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer Family Foundation, supporting WHYY's Fresh Air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
I worked at it pretty hard there in the early days. Were you overwhelmed when you were 20 by the incredible differences between, you know, in age, race, gender, class, between you and the older blues musicians who you were understudying?
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Now, on your latest album, your live album, you do a tribute to Fred McDowell. You play part of Write Me a Few of Your Lines, which we just heard. This is your Kokomo medley. Did you learn things from Fred McDowell on your guitar playing or your approach to song that you're still using today that you could describe for us?
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Well, let's hear your tribute to Fred McDowell, the Kokomo medley from your latest album, Road Tested.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
That's Bonnie Raitt. Bonnie Raitt is my guest. Now, did he show you that opening riff?
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Now, I know when you were starting out, you were listening to folk music as well as to blues. Now, women's voices in folk music at the time were kind of like clear, bell-like soprano voices. I'm thinking of Joan Baez, Judy Collins. And in blues, of course, it's a much kind of rougher genre.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
uh voice that that uh blues singers use and i was wondering if you you have a beautiful clear voice i was wondering if you try to also develop a gruffer voice for the oh yeah i mean i thought if i just drank jim beam and hung out with those guys and stayed up too late and i i couldn't stand the way i sounded when i was
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
You know, when you started on the road and you were opening for a lot of older blues performers, you said that you had to kind of care for the alcohol for them, make sure they drank enough to get on stage, but not too much.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
No, I was just going to ask you about that period and what it was like to realize that with some of the musicians they needed to drink, but you had to make sure they didn't drink too much.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Bonnie Raitt, the next record you've brought with you is by Sippy Wallace, and your fans all know that you've recorded a couple of her songs, You Gotta Know How, Women Be Wise. Tell us about the record you've brought with you and why you've chosen it.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Well, why don't we hear that 1966 recording that you brought with you? And this is re-released on Alligator Records, Sippy Wallace.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
It just makes me smile so much to hear this again. Did Sippy Wallace give you any interesting advice about life or music?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
And were you comfortable singing in an operatic style or did it not matter which style you sang in as long as you did the singing?
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Can you give us an example of how you learned to open up your voice?
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Your mother who raised you came from Nigeria. What were her dreams?
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Was it reassuring to you to have a mother who knew what to do if something went wrong?
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Your parents separated, I think, when you were pretty young. And by the time you were 16, your father told you and your sister that he was done. Well, yeah, he told me.
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
And did you think that there was something about you that made him leave? Or did you think like he's being mean and thoughtless and doing this and that's on him, not on me?
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I want to play another song from your new album, and this is called The Good. The Good. Do you want to say something about what you were thinking about when you wrote it?
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Well, let's hear the song. This is The Good from Cynthia Erivo's new album, Chapter 1, Verse 1.
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
That's Cynthia Erivo from her new album, Chapter One, Verse One. So this is kind of a personal question in terms of that it has personal meaning for me. So you're five foot one. Harriet Tubman, who you portrayed, was even shorter. And I'm not quite five feet. So as a short person, I'm wondering if you think it's had much of an impact on your life or your career to be short.
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
What about chairs? Do you find it's hard to find a chair that fits? Yes, like chairs that are high enough to get to tables and stuff. Well, you know, chairs are like too deep and often too high.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
And if the stool's too high, you have to kind of shimmy onto it. Shimmy onto it, yeah. Because you can't reach that high. Your behind doesn't reach that high. It's like making little jumps to get there. And then slide down.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Oh, my goodness. Cynthia Erivo, it's been so delightful to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. And just thank you for your work. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
That's Cynthia Erivo from the miniseries Genius Aretha. Cynthia Erivo, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. How did you start listening to Aretha Franklin?
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I know you've said that when you were listening to Aretha before playing her, that one of the things you were listening for is where did she breathe?
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You get the impression that it's more far away. Exactly. The way you sang it. Exactly. But I'll tell you, it was beautiful both ways.
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You met her twice, backstage at the Color Purple and at the Kennedy Center. Did you feel like you were able to have a meaningful conversation with her? I think sometimes, like when you meet somebody who's so important to you, you just don't know what to say.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
She was brought up in the church and she was brought up singing gospel in the church on tours through the South and in her father's church. And so when she started singing R&B, it was so church influenced. And I'm wondering about if you grew up church at all in England and if so, what the music was like.
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Was the objection to the gospel music the lyrics of the song or the style of singing? I think it's the style of singing.
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Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Yeah. You went to RADA, which is the Rural Academy of Dramatic Arts in England. Very famous school. You didn't know it existed when you were invited to apply for it. I did not. Was it revelatory once you got there to study acting in such a formal and probably traditional way?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You know, when you were talking about Aretha, you talked about the importance of where you breathe and how it can even change the meaning of a phrase. So when you were learning Sondheim songs, And I think breath is really especially important in those songs in terms of the meaning, but in some of the songs in terms of having an opportunity to breathe.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Because some of the songs, there isn't a lot of opportunity. And those songs are really rangy, you know, so your breath support would be really important. Is there a song you especially loved when you started singing Sondheim?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I have. I've seen you sing it on YouTube, so if anybody wants to see it, it's there.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Yeah, thank you. How did you figure out where to breathe? Did you get advice on that? Did it seem natural? I got advice.