Terry Gross
Appearances
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. There is a term for what Musk and Trump are doing. That's the headline of the latest Atlantic Magazine article by my guest Anne Applebaum. The term, she says, is regime change. She writes, no one should be surprised or insulted by this phrase because this is exactly what Trump and many who support him have long desired.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
You wrote a whole article about this, about how it's really like threatening European elections. What are some of the biggest concerns now about American threats to European elections?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
There is something called the European Union's Digital Services Act, which went into effect last year. What can it do? It's in the middle of an investigation, right?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Is that an explanation that you think is plausible because you wrote that a group of American oligarchs want to undermine EU institutions because these oligarchs don't want to be regulated?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Do you have any insights into why President Trump wants to distance himself from NATO while he seems to be aligning himself with Putin?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
And what are the countries that are already leaning toward authoritarianism in Europe now?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
You mentioned that some people on the right in America are very supportive of Orban and admire him. He spoke to one of the CPAC conferences, the Conservative Political Action Conference. And at one of those conferences, he said, Hungary is actually an incubator where experiments are done on the future of conservative politics.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Hungary is the place where we didn't just talk about defeating the progressives and liberals and causing a conservative Christian political turn, but we actually did it. Do you think the Trump administration has taken some actions from the Orban playbook?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Orban has really advocated the far right side of the culture wars. And he said the woke movement and gender ideology are exactly what communism and Marxism used to be. They artificially cut the nation into minorities in order to spark strife among the groups.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
And he endorsed Trump in 2016. I don't know if he said anything in 2020 or 2024. But it sounds like not only is the right borrowing from the Orban playbook, but Orban is borrowing from the far right playbook in America.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
My guest is journalist Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about America's turn toward the right and Trump's move toward authoritarianism. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. Let's look at Poland. Your husband is the foreign minister of Poland and you're very familiar with Polish politics. You live part-time in Poland and part-time in Washington, D.C.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
I want to talk about that more in depth. But first of all, I want to talk about what happened over the weekend at the Munich Security Conference, which you attended to report on. So let's talk about how shocked European leaders were by what J.D. Vance and Secretary of State Pete Hexeth had to say about NATO and about Europe's far right, and how shocked they were at how the U.S.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Poland had moved from a hard-won democracy to approaching authoritarianism and then it moved back to democracy. How did it return to democracy? Was it through resistance to authoritarianism, through just a vote? Like what happened to return it?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
So we're seeing in America right now, a lot of people in civil service, and now I'm talking about ones who aren't being fired, they're having to decide whether they should stay in their jobs and carry out orders, thus sacrificing their own principles of ethics and good government.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
or resign, but then they risk having their position either not filled or filled by somebody who will be pressured to just conform to orders that are not good government kind of orders. Did that happen in Poland where people had to make really tough decisions about what to do?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
has sidelined Europe and even Ukraine from the initial negotiations with Russia and about ending the war in Ukraine. Hexeth said that European allies should increase military spending and decrease their reliance on Washington, and that Trump will not allow anyone to turn Uncle Sam into Uncle Sucker.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
You trace the modern civil service system back to Teddy Roosevelt, who reformed it. What was it like before?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
You wrote that if the Trump administration succeeds in destroying the civil service system, the universities are next. What leads you to say that?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Vance said, if NATO wants us to continue supporting them, and NATO wants us to continue to be a good participant in this military alliance, why don't you respect American values and respect free speech? You have a lot of contacts in Europe. I mean, your husband is the foreign minister of Poland. You live part-time in Poland and part-time in the U.S. and Washington.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Trump pardoned leaders of far-right groups that organized January 6th and were convicted of sedition, seditious conspiracy. One of those groups, the Proud Boys, here's what the Anti-Defamation League has to say about them. The group serves as a tent for misogynistic, anti-immigrant, Islamophobic, and anti-LGBTQ plus ideologies and other forms of hate.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated the Proud Boys as a hate group. So the leaders of that group were pardoned by Trump. Can you talk about the contrast between pardoning hate groups and being against diversity, equity, and inclusion?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about America's turn toward the right and Trump's move toward authoritarianism. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. You're a journalist, and you've been writing critically about Trump since 2016 or 2015. Trump is attacking the press.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
He's always attacked the press. I mean, in his first term, the press was the enemy of the people. But now it's escalating. What are some of your concerns about the attack on the press and where it might lead to for the press?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
She points out during his 2024 campaign, Donald Trump spoke of Election Day as Liberation Day, a moment when people he described as vermin and radical left lunatics would be eliminated from public life. Before Applebaum started writing about America moving to the right and Trump moving toward authoritarianism, she was writing about how some European countries were becoming authoritarian.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
What did you hear behind the scenes about the reaction of European leaders to what American leaders said about NATO?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
The White House blocked the AP, the Associated Press, from the Oval Office and from Air Force One because the wire service used Gulf of Mexico and not Gulf of America in its reporting. So renaming the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America seems like an odd and maybe not very important thing. But do you see that as part of like a loyalty test?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Like who's going to say it my way, the Gulf of America, and who's going to defy me and say Gulf of Mexico?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Do you have any role models for continuing to report in a time that can be very chilling for journalists?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Anne Applebaum, thank you so much for coming back to Fresh Air. Thank you. Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic. Her latest book is Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Rich Benjamin, the grandson of a popular Haitian labor leader who became president of Haiti in 1957, but was overthrown by a military coup after 19 days.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Benjamin will talk about getting classified documents showing the U.S. role in the coup, and we'll hear about Benjamin's experiences as a black, gay, Haitian American who came out during the AIDS epidemic. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Rebo Donato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
I'm going to stop you there because I just want to play a clip that illustrates the point that you're making. You know, he was talking about Europeans being afraid of free speech and that they're using words like misinformation and disinformation, which he described as ugly Soviet era words.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
And so he was talking about that and about how there should be room for like all parties because like the other parties in Germany won't form an alliance with the far right party that you've been describing.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Vance speaking over the weekend at the Munich Security Conference.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Last weekend, she was at the Munich Security Conference, where Vice President J.D. Vance and Secretary of State Pete Hegseth were dismissive of NATO and its importance for American as well as European security, marking a turning point in the post-World War II alliance. It left European leaders shocked and worried. Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
When he says there is nothing America can do for you, is that meant to be some kind of threat or just a kind of moral condescension?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
So tell me what you heard from European leaders and your contacts in Europe.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
And what are Europe's primary security concerns right now, especially if America either totally distances itself or pulls out of NATO?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
She is also a senior fellow at the SNF Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University and the School of Advanced International Studies. Her latest book is Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World. Her other books include Twilight of Democracy, Red Famine, Stalin's War on Ukraine, and Gulag, a History, which won the Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Ukraine's President Zelensky has suggested that Europe create its own military force independent of NATO.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
So during the first Trump administration, President Zelensky of Ukraine seemed to try to flatter Trump as a way of courting support. Did he shift away from that while speaking in Munich? Do you see that as a change?
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
My guest is Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic. Her latest book is called Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Later, President Trump was asked about Ukrainian objections to being shut out of the initial talks to end the war. Trump responded by falsely blaming Ukraine for starting the war with Russia.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Trump said, quote, you should have never started it. You could have made a deal. This morning, we reached out to Ann Applebaum for her reaction. She emailed us this, quote, Trump is now repeating Russian propaganda. Ukraine did not start the war. Ukraine has not refused to negotiate. When they tried in 2022, Russia offered only one option, surrender.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Russian goals are the same now as at the beginning of the war. Remove Ukrainian sovereignty. Make Ukraine into a vassal state. Ukrainians know that Russian occupation would mean death, destruction, and the loss of identity. If the U.S. sides with Russia against Ukraine, we will boost Russian allies all over the world, in China, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
Many people in the administration and Congress understand what a disaster this would be for the American economy and American power, unquote. We'll hear more of my interview with Ann Applebaum after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
She's a former Washington Post columnist and member of the editorial board. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Anne Appelbaum, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me. You're calling what's happening in the U.S. under the Trump regime, regime change. Can you expand on why you're using that language? In the past, you've used words like illiberal democracy or authoritarianism.
Fresh Air
How Regime Change Happens In America
You have referred to Musk using X to try to influence the election in Germany in favor of the far right party. You know, American elections are always being threatened by foreign interference nowadays from China. from Russia, from their bots, from false information, conspiracy theories. But now Europe is worrying about foreign interference from the U.S. through social media.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
And in what ways do you feel like you get deeper into it when you're there?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
How do you spend your day at the monastery?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
A Flame is about the flame of passion and commitment in the monastic life, even for visitors on a retreat like him. And it's about the destructive, deadly flames of fire. Ira is best known for his travel writing and for reporting and reflecting on the cultures and religions of the world.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
If you're just joining us, my guest is Pico Ayer. His new memoir, reflecting on his retreats in a Benedictine monastery and on the wildfire flames that have threatened the monastery and burned down his family home, is called A Flame Learning from Silence. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Pico, somebody said to you, a friend I think, is it selfish when you have other people depending on you to take retreats in a monastery? And you're now married, you have two children. Your answer was, not if it makes you less selfish. So my question is, how does being in the monastery make you less selfish when you end the retreat and go back into the world?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
His previous book, The Half-Known Life in Search of Paradise, found him traveling around the world to discover what different cultures and religions perceive as paradise. Iyer has known the Dalai Lama for decades and is the author of an earlier book about him. He spent a lot of time in monasteries but remains secular. His mother was a professor of comparative religion.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Something I'd like to hear more about, you write in the book that you at the monastery are glad to be away from the self that you are with other people. How do those two selves compare?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
I think it's more than chatter. You're talking, yeah.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
He was born and grew up in England where his parents moved from India to study. When his parents moved to the U.S., he remained in an English boarding school. He received degrees from Oxford and Harvard. We recorded our interview Monday. Pico Ayer, welcome back to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you back on the show.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pico Ayer. His new memoir is called A Flame, Learning from Silence. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
The monastery that you go on retreats to, it's a Christian monastery, part of the Benedictine Order monastery. You are secular. You know, your parents are Hindu. They're from India. You went to a boarding school in England where your parents moved to study before moving to the U.S. And it was a Christian boarding school, so you had to go to chapel like two times a day.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
You are very secular, even though you do your retreats at a Catholic monastery. What keeps you secular surrounded by the monks?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
This is a very moving book and a really fascinating book because of your experiences at the monastery.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Well, right now, humanity seems to be a major part of the picture because if, for instance, the wildfires that have consumed so much of California are partly the responsibility of people, of us, because of climate change caused by chemicals that, you know, things that we've released into the air, then it's an act of humans. It's hard to see it just as an act of God.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. When we first booked today's interview weeks ago, we had no idea how timely it would be and for such a tragic reason. My guest, Pico Ayer, has written a new memoir about what he's experienced and learned in the more than 30 years that he's been going on retreats in a Benedictine monastery to practice silence and for contemplation.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
And also, when a wildfire rages through urban areas like that, it seems so different than when it ravages Forest, because it's a little more expected, and we know that eventually forests can replenish themselves, things can grow back. I suppose homes can be rebuilt, but there's something so unnatural about it. You know what I'm saying.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
My question about how all these fires are likely in part attributed to man-made climate change and extreme weather that we are collectively responsible for, and I don't say that to blame the victims of the fire. I say that in part to blame myself because I know I have not been doing what I should be doing. I'm using things. I'm throwing things out into the trash that I shouldn't be.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
So I mean that to accept some of the blame, not to blame the victims. So I just want to be clear about that because I felt a little bad about how I stated the question. One of the questions your mother asked you when you told her about the monastery and your retreats was, you're not going to convert, are you? Why was she so concerned about that?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
You write briefly about a dilemma that you faced that so many people have faced in their own way. So your wife is Japanese and you moved to Japan to be with her and her two children who are now your children. But at the same time, your mother was sick. Once you were living in Japan, when your mother was sick, you wanted to be with her. You wanted to be with your wife and children.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Why do you think your mother and the monastery keeps rebuilding when they know they're in the path of wildfires?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
She needed full-time care, but you couldn't be with her because you needed to be in Japan with your family and you needed to make enough money in order to pay the bills for her healthcare needs. So, so many people have experienced some version of that.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
whether it's taking care of their children or taking care of their mother or something else, and then needing to do your job so you could pay for everything you need to pay for. How did you resolve that? or balance that.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
What was your mother's attitude to you having to be not only away but so far away in Japan?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pico Ayer. His new memoir is called A Flame, Learning from Silence. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
You became good friends with Leonard Cohen, and you met him through a magazine assignment where you were sent to find out more about why he left his life as a music star to live in a Zen monastery in California and kind of remove himself from that whole world that he was such a star in.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
And you didn't even recognize him when you first saw him, because he was wearing a tattered robe, I think, and kind of bent over a little.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
So you got to know him well. You met him multiple times in the monastery, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. How would you compare the monastery, the Zen monastery where he lived to the Benedictine monastery that you've gone on so many retreats to?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
You're a writer. You're all about words. You're a writer. You're a public speaker. Is it hard for you to share no words at all and to be silent for stretches of time?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Pico, before you go, you should choose a Leonard Cohen song to end this. And the last time you were on our show, you chose If It Be Your Will. So let's go with another one that still means a lot to you.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
I don't think I know that one.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Oh, wonderful. Beautiful. I look forward to hearing it. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Pico Ayer's new memoir is called A Flame, Learning from Silence.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
So you were trapped with flames five stories high. I don't even know how they would get that high since you weren't living in an apartment building or anything. But it seems like so terrifying. And I just wonder what went through your mind when you didn't think you had a way out.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Tomorrow on Fresh Air, the secret history of the rape kit. For years it was thought that a Chicago police sergeant created the rape kit, a tool for investigating sexual assault and rape that has been instrumental in getting justice for victims. Investigative reporter Pagan Kennedy will tell us about the real creator, an activist who worked with runaway youth in the 70s. I hope you'll join us.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Teresa Madden directed today's show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
And did images, almost like biblical images or images of Hindu funeral pyres because your parents were from India, they're Hindu, did those kind of images flash before your eyes?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
So you managed to get out of the house, but you were surrounded by flames in your car.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
How were you changed after the fire? You'd lost all your possessions. You probably lost your manuscripts, your books, things that were really precious to you, probably photos, all kinds of things. You cared for your mother. She was in great distress. But you probably had a new outlook on being alive. How were you changed? And was it the fire that led you to seek out monastic retreats?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
to get both out of himself and the world, and deeper in. But the book begins with fire, and fire is a theme throughout. The monastery is surrounded by 900 acres of trees, and on one side, the ocean. It's in California's Big Sur, one of the most beautiful places in the U.S. On the first page, a monk is describing to Iyer a wildfire that came close to burning down the monastery.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
I wonder if things are really different for people who were parents who weren't a parent at the time.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
So at the Benedictine Monastery, where you took refuge after the fire, they practiced silence there, and you practiced silence with intervals of talk as well. What did you find appealing about silence? Is that something you'd ever sought out before?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
It wasn't the first time, and it wasn't the last time. At one point, the road was blocked and there was no way out. A little later in the book, we learn that Iyer's family home in Santa Barbara, where they had lived for about a quarter century, where he was living at the time with his mother, that burned to the ground. At the time, that fire was part of the worst fire in California history.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
It's funny, speaking for myself, sometimes when I'm really alone for an extended period of time, my mind is quieter. But other times, the chatter gets louder because there's nothing to drown it out. There's no outside world or outside of maybe like the TV or books or whatever. But there's nothing to drown out the chatter or to distract. Did you experience that too at any point?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Would you describe the Benedictine order, whose monastery you've been going on retreats to for decades?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
Can you physically describe the monastery?
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
He was at home, alone with his mother's cat, when he was suddenly surrounded by flames five stories high and had no way out. After three hours of terror, he was rescued by a Good Samaritan traveling around in a water truck with a hose. He and his mother lost everything, but he survived and the cat survived. His memoir is titled A Flame, Learning from Silence.
Fresh Air
How Losing Everything In A Wildfire Led Pico Iyer To Seek Silence
It is such a beautiful place. I don't mean the monastery itself, but Big Sur. And so I'm kind of wondering if going on a retreat there is like being in a privileged bubble. Or it's like getting in touch with something so elemental, so essential about nature, about the world.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. A new investigation into conflicts of interest posed by Elon Musk overseeing the drastic cost-cutting and dismantling of some federal agencies was published yesterday afternoon in the New York Times online. A few hours later, Musk and President Trump held a joint press conference during which they insisted Musk was operating with full transparency.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So, you know, we've been talking about several agencies that Musk has conflicts of interest with. But if you put all of the departments and all the agencies together that he is using his team to cut costs and cut jobs, if you put it all together, what is the significance that's different than looking at individual places?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
I know you don't cover the courts, but some of the lawsuits that have been filed to try to stop Musk from following through on all the cuts that he's making, some of those are likely to end up before the Supreme Court. There are several justices who consider themselves originalists, meaning that they—
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
either take a literal reading of the Constitution, or their goal is to try to interpret the Constitution as closely as the founders would. So one of the basics of the Constitution is that Congress has powers of the purse, and another is the separation of powers, and the equal branches of government, Congress, judiciary, and executive,
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
And now the Trump administration seems to be saying, well, we have the power. The courts can't stop us. So do you have any idea, like any guesses how the Supreme Court might rule on any of these appeals? Yeah.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Eric Lipton, I really want to thank you.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Eric Lipton is an investigative reporter at The New York Times. Our interview was recorded yesterday. After we take a short break, I'll talk with Theodore Schleifer about how Musk became so powerful in the Trump administration and how Musk's political views shifted to the right. He covers the intersection of Silicon Valley and politics for The New York Times.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. Elon Musk and his Department of Government Efficiency are reshaping the federal government, inserting themselves into departments and agencies with the goal of drastically slashing costs and cutting jobs. Musk isn't the only tech billionaire that's a player now in the Trump administration.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
My guest, New York Times reporter Theodore Schleifer, says those tech leaders are emboldened and they have their fingerprints all over the second Trump administration. What does this say about the influence of Silicon Valley's ultra wealthy on our current government? The intersection between Silicon Valley and politics is a subject Schleifer has been reporting on for years.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
His Times bio describes him as covering billionaires and their impact on the world. Theodore Schleifer, welcome to Fresh Air. I'm wondering, has Musk always wanted to have a hand in reshaping government?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
But, you know, like he has tweeted or retweeted conspiracy theories. He's endorsing the far right party in Germany. He's aligned with the far right in the U.S. now. Is there more of an explanation of how that started happening, assuming it's something relatively new?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
And the Office of Government Ethics, which you mentioned, Trump just fired the head of it this week. That office had pending requests to investigate Musk for conflicts of interest. On what grounds?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Tell us more about the personal story you alluded to.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So do you think he sees his trans child as a victim of woke ideology?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So is Elon Musk a one-off, or do you think that a lot of the Silicon Valley billionaires have become more conservative, have drifted more to the right in recent years?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So one of the things happening now with Musk, or at least it's happening now as we record this Tuesday morning, he's leading a group of investors who are trying to execute a hostile takeover of a nonprofit that controls the artificial intelligence company OpenAI. And that's the company behind ChatGPT. It's headed by Sam Altman. Musk had been involved with this group early on.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So whatever this is about, I'm just wondering, like, if Elon Musk has some control over this huge AI company. I know Elon Musk is working on his own AI company, but it's not as developed as OpenAI is. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
But if someone like Musk who has endorsed conspiracy theories and is far right now in some of his politics, if he takes over – or him and the consortium take over a really major AI company and if they feed it the kind of things that Musk believes now, certain conspiracy theories, if that gets into AI as fact – What would that mean? And am I just interpreting this all wrong?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So do you see liberal billionaires trying to put money to stop with the conservative bill? Like how are the liberal billionaires reacting to all of the very conservative billionaires that are embedded in one way or another in the Trump administration?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
If you're just joining us, my guest is Theodore Schleifer, and he's a reporter for The New York Times who covers, among other things, the intersection of Silicon Valley and Washington politics. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air. As you've pointed out, there isn't a lot of transparency in what Musk is doing in terms of job and cost cutting.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
And he has said secrecy is necessary to the team of young people who he has carrying out his orders at departments and agencies. Russell Vaught, who's the new head of the Office of Management and Budget, said, we want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
And Trump for years has been calling, for instance, the press the enemy of the people. And Musk has accused USAID of being a criminal organization and said time for it to die. Does that seem a little unusual that Musk could say, oh, we just don't want to make our own people targets when some of the Trump administration people have really put targets on the back of so many people?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So he is investigating spending and possible fraud in agencies and departments throughout the government. Is anybody investigating if there's any inefficiency or fraud in the about $3 billion he's getting from the government?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So one of the big concerns is that Musk's team has wanted access to the Treasury Department's payment system. And the Treasury Department disperses about $5 trillion in funding. And it has everybody's sensitive information in there. How far has the Musk team gotten in their attempt to get into the payment system?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
The U.S. Digital Service is now renamed the U.S. Doge Service. And it was established in 2014 to fix the federal government's online services, which What can you tell us about this service and what it means that it's now renamed with the Doge brand?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Let's take another break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times reporter Teddy Schleifer. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
One of your articles was about investigating who are the people working with Musk on Doge, the young people who are going into agencies and departments and trying to lay off people or fire them and cut costs. What are some of the things you were able to learn about who they are and how they're being selected?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
I assume there were more because there's so many agencies and departments that they're working on.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
When we talk about spending in Washington politics or political power in terms of private enterprise, it was always about corporations. And now you're specializing in writing about billionaires who own corporations, multiple corporations in the case of Elon Musk. So do you think the balance of power has kind of switched to individuals as opposed to companies?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Trump said he wouldn't allow Musk to look into areas that posed a conflict of interest. Musk controls six private companies, including SpaceX, Tesla, and X, formerly Twitter. He gets billions of dollars from the federal government. My guest Eric Lipton, along with Times reporter Kirsten Grind, spent the past year investigating Musk's business with the federal government.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So a lot of Trump watchers have described Trump as somebody who wants to be the person getting the most attention, whether it's on the media or in terms of political power. And Musk is getting so much attention now, and you're contributing to that by writing so much articles.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
By reporting so much on Musk and his influence in the Trump administration, there was a Time magazine cover where it was Musk at the Resolute desk in the White House. Some people are predicting that this relationship can't last long because they both want to be the most powerful person. Do you have any insight into that?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Teddy Schleifer, thank you so much for talking with us.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Theodore Schleifer covers the intersection of Silicon Valley and politics and the global influence of billionaires for The New York Times. We recorded the interview yesterday before the Trump-Musk press conference. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be filmmaker, photographer, professor, and writer Rommel Ross.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
He's nominated for an Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay for the film Nickel Boys, which he also directed. The movie is also nominated for Best Picture. It's about two young black men in the 60s attempting to survive a brutal reformatory. I hope you'll join us.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Meeble Donato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
The National Labor Relations Board has 24 investigations into Musk's companies. Can you tell us a little bit about the nature of some of those investigations?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
And it's interesting because it sounds like some of the investigations into Musk's companies from the National Labor Relations Board are similar to the kinds of suits that Musk may face because of the way he's eliminating positions in federal agencies.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Let's look at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which was founded by Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren. It received hundreds of complaints about Tesla revolving around debt collection or loan problems. Tell us a little bit about the complaints.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
they learned that at least 11 federal agencies have more than 32 continuing investigations, pending complaints, or enforcement actions into Musk's companies. Yesterday, before the Trump-Musk press conference, I spoke to Lipton about what the investigation uncovered. Eric Lipton, welcome to Fresh Air. You're a reporter looking into these conflicts of interest.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Let's look at the Federal Aviation Agency, which has fined SpaceX for safety violations. Tell the story about the launch of the satellite, the SpaceX satellite.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
$283,009, like just a few dollars more than $283,000, is probably a pittance to Elon Musk. So why is this such an offense to him?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So the SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission, has been investigating what Musk paid for Twitter and the backstory to that. So would you explain that?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Is there anyone in an official capacity in the Trump administration or in Congress or in any other official capacity who is doing an investigation into possible conflicts of interest between Elon Musk and the departments and agencies that he is cutting jobs and costs?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
So what were the consequences of Musk having purchased 5% of Twitter stock before saying that he was going to buy it?
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
Was it hard to report this story and get the information that you needed? When I say this story, I mean the whole story you've written about conflicts of interest.
Fresh Air
How Did Elon Musk Become So Powerful In The Trump Administration?
How much do you think Musk's efforts combined with Trump's desire to basically gut a lot of government, how much is that reshaping what the federal government is?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
Our interview is about the context and possible consequences of the tariffs, so it will be helpful in understanding the news, whatever twists and turns the story takes. Zannie Minton-Biddles, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thank you for having me.
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
What does a tariff war look like? Like, take the example of the US and China. And I don't think President Xi is likely to back down. President Trump says he's not going to back down. So if there's a tariff war, say, between China and the US, what does that look like?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
If Trump were to say, oops, my mistake, I didn't intend my beautiful tariffs to tank the global economy, let's call the whole thing off and put things back exactly like they were, would the markets likely recover quickly, even if he did that?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Zannie Minton-Bettos, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We're talking about Trump's tariffs and their impact on everything from the global economy to our daily lives. We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
You recently returned from a reporting trip to China. What kind of information did you pick up there about China's economy and how it's going to react to Trump tariffs?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
I think there's another way that this might be an opportunity for China. China sees itself, I think, as a major competitor with the US globally. And China's been doing its best to make inroads in countries that have minerals and other things that China needs. So if the US makes a lot of enemies in these trading wars and has trouble trading with traditional trading partners,
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
How can that create an opportunity for China?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
What's another way of dealing with China beyond tariffs in terms of trade?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
I want to talk about Vietnam for a minute and its relationship to China in this trade war. Vietnam has a 40 plus percent tariff that's being imposed on it. And Vietnam wants to negotiate that down. But the Vietnam tariff has to do with China. Can you explain that connection?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
I just want to say, you mentioned the islands with only penguins on them near Antarctica. The rationale apparently is, and was it Howard Lutnick who said this, that this is so that China can't use these islands to get around tariffs? Well,
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Zannie Minton-Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We'll talk more about the Trump tariffs after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
I'm going to quote President Trump and use a word that I don't traditionally use on the radio. Trump said that the EU was created to, quote, screw, unquote, Americans. The EU, meanwhile, is trying to figure out a way to counteract these tariffs, to negotiate. I don't know what their plans are. But are we creating adversaries out of allies?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
Would that shut out the U.S.? Are you describing a system in which the U.S. is weaker, not stronger?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
So the EU is talking about going after tech like Google in retaliation for the tariffs. And I'm trying to understand what a tech retaliation would look like.
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
You said that terrorists are something that Trump has believed in for a long time. And he recently said that America is being, quote, looted, pillaged, raped and plundered by nations near and far. What's your take on that high drama description?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. I follow the news pretty carefully, but it used to be that when I'd come across an article about tariffs or free trade, I'd give myself permission to skip over it. I assumed it might be boring and that I wouldn't understand it even if I read it. But now, now, Trump's tariffs are high drama.
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
It's ironic that Trump wants to lower taxes, but at the same time, the tariffs will create high taxes. So the billions that Trump says we'll be getting from tariffs, is that money that we, the consumers, will be paying to the government?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
They've upended world markets, and it feels essential to understand their impact on the U.S. and the global economy, how they might have a long-term effect on U.S. relations with our allies and adversaries, and how they'll affect consumer prices and our savings.
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
Here to help me and you better understand what's happening is a journalist who's been covering economic issues for years and recently returned from a reporting trip to China. Zannie Minton-Beddoes is the editor-in-chief of The Economist. She previously was the magazine's business editor and economics editor and is a former economist for the International Monetary Fund.
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
In terms of tech innovation, like you were saying that the U.S. strength is in tech, in the service industry, and in research. But the Trump administration has been cutting research and cutting agencies that do research, cutting universities that do research. So if our strength is
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
in terms of the financial system, is in innovation and we're decreasing the funding intentionally of innovation, where does that leave us?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
Trump's approach to the tariffs is to put a 10% tariff as a minimum on everybody, like every country, and then individually have a formula so that he can individually place tariffs on all of our trading partners. And it's all happening simultaneously, and it's all happening with a very fast deadline. Is that usually the way tariffs are done?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
Like how have tariffs traditionally been instated on countries?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Trump's tariffs went into effect at midnight, and this afternoon, as I record this introduction, he's put a 90-day pause on most of the tariffs, but not China's. But who knows what will happen later today?
Fresh Air
Trump's Tariffs & The Radical Remaking Of The Global Economy
I'm surprised that people in finance, people in the banking system, people in hedge funds, and just, you know, major investors aren't complaining more, aren't objecting more because they're losing a fortune. And a lot of corporations, I mean, are losing millions or billions in terms of their stock prices.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
She's been in several Wes Anderson films, the Joanna Hogg films The Souvenir and The Eternal Daughter, and the Luca Guadagnino films I Am Love, Suspiria, and A Bigger Splash, the Julio Torres film Problemista, and the Coen brothers Hail Caesar and Burn After Reading. Swinton even has a place in the Marvel Cinematic Universe as the Ancient One.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
If you're just joining us, my guest is Tilda Swinton, and she stars in the new Pedro Almodovar film, The Room Next Door. It opened in New York and L.A. and begins opening in theaters this Friday and then opens more widely on the following Friday, the 17th. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Your parents died in the care of home hospice. You were there in Scotland where you're from. Were you and your parents able to talk about your lives together and your lives apart and reconcile any things that needed to be reconciled and be open and honest with each other?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Her new film, The Room Next Door, is adapted from the 2020 novel What Are You Going Through? by Sigrid Nunes. Swinton's character, Martha, is planning to end her life. She doesn't want to die in her Manhattan home surrounded by things she loves. She thinks it will be easier to die in a house in the woods that has no personal connection.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
So she rents a beautiful home in the woods for one month, planning on dying before the month is up. She wants solitude, but she also wants a friend to accompany her. After several friends decline, she asks an old friend who Martha had lost touch with. The friend, Ingrid, played by Julianne Moore, is a novelist who has found out Martha is sick and has been visiting her.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Tilda Swinton, stars in a new, beautiful movie called The Room Next Door. She plays a war correspondent who has dodged death several times. Now she has cancer, for which she's received harsh treatments, including in clinical trials. But the cancer progresses.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Well, it sounds like her end was a blessing. Yeah, truly.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Yeah. Well, I need to reintroduce you again here. My guest is Tilda Swinton. She stars in the new Pedro Almodovar film, The Room Next Door. It's opened in New York and L.A. and begins opening in theaters around the country on Friday and opens more widely the following Friday. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
You're from a military family. Seems to me you went in the opposite direction in your artistic life. You got your start in the avant-garde. And the avant-garde, it breaks the rules. It's unconventional. And in the military, there are rules that are strictly followed. And it's hard to be—unless you're thinking of an unconventional war strategy and you're in a leadership position—
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
It's hard to be unconventional in the military. Do you feel like you went in an opposite direction?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Ingrid's latest novel draws on her own fear of death. Here's Tilda Swinton as Martha, explaining the situation to Ingrid.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Something that's similar and different is clothing. Like in the military, you have a uniform, which is kind of a costume, but it's a uniform. Everybody has the uniform. And in movies, like you've worn so many different kinds of costumes over the years. So do you feel like clothing... Like your interest in clothing, was that influenced in the negative or positive by the uniforms of the military?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
And I don't know even if you ever saw your father or any other of your relatives or even your brother in uniform and what that meant to you.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
You've described yourself as queer, but not in the LGBTQ community. spectrum. So when you use the word queer, what do you mean?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
We're all queer fish. I know in boarding school you were bullied. What were you bullied for, do you know?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
You won an Oscar for your performance in Michael Clayton, which is a very good, very popular, and also a genre film. I mean, it's a legal thriller. And it was probably pretty conventional by your standards, considering the films that you made. I'm wondering what it was like to be in a film like that, that was more of a Hollywood film.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
I'm going to take a break here because I need to reintroduce you. So my guest is Tilda Swinton. She stars on the new Pedro Almodovar film, The Room Next Door. It's opened already in New York and L.A. and begins opening in theaters around the country on Friday and opens nationally the week after. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
If you love NPR podcasts, you don't need me to tell you the value of public media in your life. To support our mission and get perks like sponsor-free podcast listening across more than 20 NPR podcasts and exclusive bonus episodes, sign up for the NPR Plus bundle at plus.npr.org. I want to get back to your new film, The Room Next Door.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Tilda Swinton, welcome to Fresh Air. I love this movie. I love your performance in it. And I want to congratulate you for making something that is so moving with such a great performance.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
So talk about seeing the movie with the music and what impact the music had on you.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Yes, and Happy New Year to you. I know you had friends, including your close friend, Derek Jarman, who made the first films you were in, who died during the AIDS epidemic, and your parents died. Are there ways, I know you have a lot of people in your life who have died, are there ways in which the screenplay and your character connect with you on a very personal level?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
I think the music also is, and I think I'm right about this, it's like a very slow tango.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Tilda Swinton, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and thank you for making this movie. I just really love your new movie. Thank you, Terry, and for everything you do. Tilda Swinton stars on the new Pedro Almodovar film, The Room Next Door.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Tomorrow on Fresh Air, on the day of Jimmy Carter's funeral, we feature part two of our remembrance of Carter with excerpts of the interviews we recorded over the years. He talked about his poems, his concerns about how intertwined politics and religion had become, and a somber holiday season soon after 9-11. We'll also hear an interview with Carter and his daughter Amy,
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Mabel Donato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
So many of Almodovar's movies are about death or pain or hospitalization, and they're all so beautiful.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
She's rejecting more treatment, refusing to continue suffering, and has decided it's time to end her life. The film is about suffering and death and choice, but it's a beautiful film because of the sometimes poetic dialogue, the emotional depth.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
So what was it like for you after having, you know, borne witness to and helped people who were close to you and were dying? What's it like for you to be on the other side in this role as the person who is dying and wants to terminate her life?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
And just in case people get the characters' names confused, Ingrid is the person who's helping your character. Your character is dying. Yes. She's accompanying you.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
The friends and family whose deaths you witnessed and whose end of life you witnessed, were they fearful of death? Some of them.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
The relationship between the two main characters and the contrast between Swinton's ghostly presence in the film and the vibrant, color-saturated world around her, including the clothes, the walls, and the furniture, and the woods. It's a form of beauty and contrast I've come to expect from the film's writer and director, Pedro Almodovar.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Your character is kind of ghostly in it. And you're very pale because you're dying. And it's such a contrast to the world of saturated color that surrounds you. And I'm wondering, did you do anything to make yourself appear more ghostly?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
He's Spanish, and this is his first English-language feature film. Tilda Swinton started off in the film Avant-Garde. She made several films with the director Derek Jarman, including her first film, Caravaggio, and never expected, or maybe never even sought, commercial success. But she got it anyway.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
I know you've had long COVID. I don't know if you're still experiencing any symptoms.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Good. Took a while. But is it okay if I ask you about that period where you were experiencing?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Right. So I would guess you'd be feeling physically diminished, fatigued, and maybe cognitively not at your best. Having read a lot about long COVID, I haven't had it myself.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
In the film, your character has decided to end her life with a pill she brought on the dark web. But the person who she's asked, her friend who she's asked to spend time with her, has this terrible fear of death. And her latest novel is kind of about her fear of death. Yeah. What are your thoughts about what happens after you die and what happens during that transition?
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
Many filmgoers were introduced to her in the title role of the 1992 film Orlando, adapted from a 1928 Virginia Woolf novel, in which a young nobleman, a favorite of Queen Elizabeth's, inexplicably wakes up as a woman. Swinton won an Oscar for her performance in the popular 2007 legal thriller Michael Clayton.
Fresh Air
Tilda Swinton Thinks About Her Death
You've witnessed a lot of death of your loved friends and family. So having seen that and having thought a lot about it and having portrayed it in this new movie, what are your thoughts and have they changed over time?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Quick question to this. So Trump wants to impose maximum pressure on Iran. Yeah, this is important. What does he want to do?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Dexter Filkins, thank you so much. And so next up, we're going to hear the interview we recorded yesterday based on your New Yorker article, your new New Yorker article about the shortage of recruits in the military that is leaving us kind of vulnerable.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
And be interesting to listen to that now in the light of Trump suggesting that we send troops to Gaza after we own it and rebuild it and expel the Palestinians. So thank you very much.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Dexter Filkins is a staff writer for The New Yorker. After we take a short break, we'll hear the interview I recorded yesterday with him about the recruitment crisis in the U.S. military, which Trump has blamed on the military's DEI programs. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Now we're going to hear the interview I recorded with Dexter Filkins yesterday morning. It's about a disturbing question that the U.S. military leaders are asking. Can our country defend itself if not enough people are willing or able to fight? They're confronting that question because the military has been unable to meet its recruitment quotas.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
President Donald Trump blames this on the military's DEI programs. The new defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, has declared an end to the era of DEI in the Defense Department. Filkins has been investigating the real reasons why the armed forces are becoming depleted and how the military has responded by loosening some admission standards. Filkin's new article, titled The U.S.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Military's Recruitment Crisis, is published in The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. He's reported on the Middle East for years, covered the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and was embedded with the Marines during one of the Iraq War's most brutal battles, the Battle of Fallujah. He's the author of the bestseller The Forever War, which won a National Book Critics Circle Award for nonfiction.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
So Trump and Hexeth have made eliminating DEI in the military a priority for the Defense Department. What exactly do they want to eliminate? What has the military been doing to increase diversity in the military?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
You sometimes don't know how to read what people mean when they talk about DEI and what Trump means when he bans DEI. So one possible way of interpreting banning DEI in the military is, you know, there's too many people of color, too many women in the military. They're not really competent. So let's cut down on those people.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Give us a sense of how bad the recruiting crisis is in the military now.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
But they don't have enough ships either, right?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. The show you're about to hear isn't the one we'd planned for today. So let me take a moment to explain. We intended to broadcast the interview I recorded yesterday about the recruiting crisis in the military and how Trump blamed it on the military's DEI programs, which is the subject of Dexter Filkin's latest article in The New Yorker.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
And the really big question is, are we more vulnerable as a result of this?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Well, I think I have to reintroduce you here. My guest is Dexter Filkins. His new article in The New Yorker is called The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
So you found that the military actually is lowering its standards. And that's not because of DEI. That's because so many would-be recruits are very overweight or they can't pass the aptitude test. You visited the Future Soldiers Training Course at Fort Jackson in South Carolina.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
And your piece starts with, you know, a bunch of overweight people who can't do five push-ups but really want to enlist. So can you just talk a little bit about the problem that the military is having when a fair amount of would-be recruits just can't pass the tests, don't fit the requirements? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
You described one woman who was told, first you have to lose 100 pounds, then come back and see if you qualify for this training program. Can you talk about her?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
What kind of track record does this program have in terms of weight loss? Do they track the people afterwards to see if they put the weight back on or if they stay at the qualifying standard?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Dexter Filkins, welcome to Fresh Air. What was your reaction last night when you heard the press conference?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
So you said the Navy has lowered its standards. What other ways has it lowered the standards?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
The military has loosened other standards, including if you have a history of asthma, you can qualify as long as you've abstained from medications for at least a year. And then there's the tattoo issue. Explain the tattoo issue and how that's changed.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
What are their tattoos and what do they signify?
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Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
How do you know that? Just because the world is against him, Trump can be very stubborn and look at what he's doing to the American government. So how can you be sure that he wouldn't try it? Maybe it wouldn't work, but how can you be sure he wouldn't try to push it forward?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
So has Pete Hexeth said anything about those tattoos?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
You know, in talking about the difficulty of recruiting, Trump and Hexeth seem to want to bar women from serving in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. But isn't that counterproductive if you want to increase the ranks of people in combat? And like flying planes, that counts as combat, doesn't it? Like if you're flying a war plane?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins. His new article in The New Yorker is titled The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
One of the things the military is doing now to get more recruits is offering pretty impressive incentives. What are some of the incentives being offered now, both financial and other kind of incentives?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Personnel pay and benefits are now about 40% of the defense budget. Do you think that that will be cut?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Well, Dexter Filkins, thank you so much for talking with us and for coming back to the show. I really appreciate it.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Dexter Filkins' new article titled The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis is published in The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. The magazine is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be writer and dominatrix Brittany Newell.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Her new novel, Softcore, explores the underworld of San Francisco's dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons, where tech bros, executives, and outcasts live out their fantasies. Hope you'll join us. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Do you think Trump and Jared see this as a kind of ultra form of gentrification?
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Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
So with the Abraham Accords, that would have created peace and recognition. So the Saudis would officially recognize Israel. There'd be an official peace between them.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
In that interview with Filkins, we also talked about how the Middle East was being reshaped by the Israel-Hamas war and the overthrow of Syria's dictator, Bashar al-Assad. But last night, at a joint press conference with Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu, Trump proposed a shocking way he'd like to reshape the region.
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Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
Choice C. When Al Qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9-11, the leadership said this was because of American military presence in the Middle East. So even if Trump does not follow through on his plan, do you think that this will arouse terrorist groups or what's left of them to try to get back at the U.S.?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
And on a related note, if Trump did take steps forward in trying to implement this, what would it mean in terms of possible terrorist attacks on U.S. troops or on just American land?
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Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
So in terms of a Palestinian state, like Mike Huckabee, who is the new ambassador to Israel, doesn't even call the West Bank the West Bank. He refers to that as Judea and Samaria, which are the biblical names for that land. And he's one of the people who believes that Israel has biblical claim to the land that we call the West Bank.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
So with him being the ambassador to Israel, what do you think that means for the future of Israel and the Palestinians?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
His idea is for all the Palestinians to leave Gaza, get Jordan and Egypt to take them in, while the U.S. takes ownership of Gaza and rebuilds it. He didn't rule out sending U.S. troops into Gaza. We brought back Falcons this morning to talk about Trump's proposal. In the second half of today's show, we'll hear the interview we recorded yesterday morning about the shortage of recruits in the U.S.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
There seems to be some controversy over whether Trump was musing or whether this was like planned in advance.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
And on a related note, the CIA, this is part of Elon Musk's plan to save money and change government. Buyouts have been offered to, I think, everybody in the CIA. And we need the CIA more than ever now, don't we?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
But that's not the plan right now. The plan is like, you can all leave if you want.
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
So yesterday in a part of our interview, which we'll hear that interview a little later, we spent some time talking about how the Middle East has been reshaped because of the Israel-Hamas war and because of the Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad having been overthrown. And everything that we said yesterday is a little out of date now as of last night. So can we take that one again?
Fresh Air
Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
How do you think the Middle East is being remade right now?
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Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
military and how that's leaving us vulnerable. Filkins is a staff writer for The New Yorker. He has been reporting on Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East for decades and is the author of the bestseller The Forever War. Let's start with a clip from last night's press conference when CNN's Caitlin Collins posed this question to Trump.
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Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis
What's left of the terrorist groups, the offshoots of Al-Qaeda, ISIS, what's left of those? And are they still a threat to Israel or to the U.S.?
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So Ron Cephas Jones, who was in that scene with you, your biological father in the series, he died a few months ago. And Andre Brouwer, who you also work with, and we'll talk about him a little bit later. Sure. He died at the end of 2023. And then you also worked on Black Panther. Yes.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
And you knew Chadwick Boseman, who died of cancer at a young age, shocking everybody because he didn't make it public. I'm wondering if that made you think about your own mortality.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
He's a plastic surgeon who's currently having money problems because his wife has left him and has taken half his practice after discovering he's having a gay relationship. He's just come out as gay and is going a little overboard in reconstructing his identity. The film is a funny satire about race and the publishing industry, while at the same time probing complicated family relationships.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So you've been in the gym a lot. So I know you're doing your part in terms of exercise. I appreciate that. So let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sterling K. Brown. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. As part of our holiday week series of interviews we particularly enjoyed from 2024, we're listening to my interview with Sterling K. Brown. He co-starred in the movie American Fiction. He won an Emmy for his portrayal of prosecutor Christopher Darden in the miniseries The People vs. O.J. Simpson and had a small but important role as a prince in Black Panther.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
He was one of the stars of the popular TV series This Is Us, where he portrayed Randall Pearson, the adopted black son in a white family. He won an Emmy for that role, too, and was nominated for another for his guest appearance in the comedy series Brooklyn Nine-Nine. When we left off, we were talking about how his life was changed by his father's early death.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
You know, so you're talking about like losing your father when you were 10 and he was in his 40s. You know, one of the focal points of This Is Us is the loss of the father. So much of the story is flashing back to the impact of the father and the father's death on the three siblings' lives.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So I'm wondering like in the day-to-day world of your lifetime, how much of it has been spent thinking about the loss of your father and how much of his loss – this is a lot to ask in one question. I apologize. It's all good.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
But how much of that loss affected your sense of who you were, of your own confidence, your self-esteem, your identity? You could probably talk for hours about that. So I apologize for packing that into one interview question on a radio show.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Sterling K. Brown, welcome to Fresh Air. So happy to have you on the show.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So your father was Sterling Brown Jr., but you went by your middle name, Kelby, until you were 16.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Why did you go by that name? Why did you change it back to Sterling Brown and keep the K as the middle initial?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Did you experience any of the same type of preconceptions about what it means to be authentically black in your personal life or in your acting career?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So I want to mention another parallel between your life and your character Randall's life in This Is Us. Randall decides since he was adopted, he's going to kind of pay it back and adopt a girl. And the person who he adopts is in her teens, and her mother is addicted to drugs, and that's why she needs a home. And, you know, your mother adopted two children when you were in college.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Were they teenagers too? And why did your mother decide to adopt two children at that stage in her life?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
That's quite a story.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
There's so much that you must have related to in This Is Us. Oh, yeah. Yeah, your mother must have been very, is she still alive?
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Happy New Year. We're continuing our holiday week series, featuring a few of the 2024 interviews we particularly enjoyed. Today, it's an interview with actor Sterling K. Brown. I've admired his work since I first saw him in the miniseries, The People vs. O.J. Simpson. He played Christopher Darden, one of O.J.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
My guest is Sterling K. Brown. He co-starred in the film American Fiction and the NBC series This Is Us and was in the movie Black Panther. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to my interview with Sterling K. Brown. He was nominated for an Oscar for his performance in the 2023 movie American Fiction. He won Emmys for his performances in the popular TV series This Is Us and the miniseries The People vs. O.J. Simpson and was nominated for another for his guest appearance on Brooklyn Nine-Nine.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
In the film Black Panther, he played a prince. Well, since we've been talking about This Is Us and how it relates to your own life, I want to play your Emmy acceptance speech for This Is Us. And this was in 2017. And in this excerpt of your acceptance speech, you're holding your Emmy, and that's what you're referring to when you say this one right here. So here's the excerpt of that speech.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
When you were an economics major and then you interned at the Federal Reserve, did you want to be in business or economics?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
You were so funny in that, especially when you were being played off, what went through your mind when the orchestra started playing to tell you that your time was up, get off the stage?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
No, are you kidding? Like it physically moved?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
I just figured maybe they would like mute it or something, but they physically lowered it.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Well, you protested. You said, you didn't play music this loud for anyone else.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So that was all spontaneous. You hadn't rehearsed, like, say I'm played off. Here's what I think I'll say.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
While you were shooting This Is Us, you got away long enough to shoot a couple of scenes in Black Panther. First of all, what did Black Panther comics mean to you when you were growing up?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So how did you know it was happening? And since you couldn't get away for long because you were shooting This Is Us, how did you manage to get a role in it?
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
My guest is Sterling K. Brown. He was nominated for an Oscar for his performance in the 2023 movie American Fiction and was one of the stars of the NBC series This Is Us. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to the interview I recorded one year ago with Sterling K. Brown. He's known for his performances in the films American Fiction and Black Panther, in the TV series This Is Us, and the miniseries The People vs. O.J. Simpson. I want to play another clip. And you talked about Andre Brouwer.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
And how your lives intersected and how you looked up with him. You got a chance to do an episode of the comedy series Brooklyn Nine-Nine with him. And in the series, he plays a police captain and Andy Samberg plays a police detective.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
And, of course, Andre Brouwer was famous for being a police detective in Homicide Life on the Street, a terrific series that really showed off his acting quite well. So this is basically a parody.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
This episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine is a parody of a famous episode from Homicide in which Brouwer and one of the other detectives are interrogating one witness for the entire episode, for the entire hour-long episode. And that's what happens in the episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine that Brouwer and Sandberg are interrogating you.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
You play a dentist who is accused of murdering his partner, his dental partner.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
And they want to get a confession out of you and you keep coming up with answers. So let's play a clip from that episode.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
That is such a great scene, and your timing is so good. I really want to see you in more comedy.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Can you talk about doing that scene and getting the timing right and getting the kind of nonchalance that your character is aiming for?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Thank you so much for coming to our show. It's really been great to talk with you.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Me too. My interview with Sterling K. Brown was recorded in January 2024. He stars in an upcoming Hulu series called Paradise, playing a security guard for the president.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we'll conclude our holiday week series with music star and actress Selena Gomez, one of the stars of the popular series Only Murders in the Building, and Alex Van Halen, who wrote a memoir about his relationship with his younger brother Eddie, and their band Van Halen. Eddie died of cancer in 2020. I hope you'll join us.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
All of us at Fresh Air wish you a very happy, healthy, and fulfilling 2025.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Okay, so you found the passion in acting. But this reminds me of a line that you say in American fiction. So, you know, your brother, the main character in the story, who's the novelist who can't get published, you say to him, like, you know, me and your sister, like, we're doctors. We save people. Like, what can you do? Revive a sentence? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
And so that reminds me, did you worry, okay, so I'm not going to give back to my community through learning about economics and money. What will being an actor give back to my community? What meaning does that have in the larger world?
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
I want to talk to you about the role that you got your first Emmy for, and that's the role of Christopher Darden in The People vs. O.J. Simpson, which was the first season of American Crime Story. You won an Emmy in 2016. Darden was one of the prosecutors, one of the two prosecutors, and he was portrayed by O.J. Simpson defenders, by people who thought O.J. was innocent.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Simpson's prosecutors in one of the most controversial trials of the 20th century. Brown won an Emmy for that performance. Since then, he became well-known in the popular NBC series This Is Us, a show that brought many viewers to tears, and won him another Emmy. He took off long enough from that job to play a prince in Black Panther.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
as having the job so that the prosecution could present a black face.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
But Darden really, I think, deeply believed in O.J. 's guilt. So I want to play a clip from the closing argument that you make in The People vs. O.J. Simpson. So here we go.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Now I'm going to skip ahead to the end of your closing argument.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
When I saw the series, I thought, oh, you look so much like Christopher Diamond. You're so good in it. You were in college at Stanford during the trial. What did you think of O.J. at the time? Did you think he was guilty or innocent?
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
He's also appeared in comedy, including a memorable Emmy-nominated performance in Brooklyn Nine-Nine. He was nominated for an Oscar last year for his role in the Oscar-winning film American Fiction. We started our interview talking about American fiction. It stars Jeffrey Wright as a novelist who is black.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
She was the main prosecutor and your partner in the trial.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Did you see, as a young man, did you see Christopher Darden as a traitor for prosecuting a black man?
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So what changed your mind? Was it stepping into Christopher Darden's role, becoming him for the series, or was it examining the facts more closely?
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
He writes about fiction that's pretty obscure, like a novel based on the Greek tragedy The Persians by Aeschylus. No one wants to publish his new novel. It seems to him that the only books white publishers want by black authors are books about being poor or in gangs or addicted to drugs or being a pregnant teenager.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So let's talk a little bit about This Is Us. And this is a series, this was a series, an incredibly popular series about three siblings. And the white mother was pregnant with triplets, but only two children survived. So the father, who's also white, decides like he'd planned on taking home three babies and that is what he's going to do.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So he adopts a baby born the same day who is left at the door of a firehouse. Now that baby is black. So you're the adult version of that black baby. who grew up in the white family. So you're set apart from the family in two ways. You're the only black person in the family and you're the only sibling who's not a twin.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
And part of the series set in the present, you're married to a black woman, you have two children and later adopt a third. So I want to play a scene from the first episode. You've been searching for your biological father, and you finally found where he lives. So you drive over there, you bang on his door, and as soon as your biological father opens the door, you make a little speech.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
So let's start with the banging on the door.
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Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
I love how that ends. So the father's played by Ron Cephas Jones, who died a few months ago. But I love how he casually invites you in after this long negative harangue about him. And you just say, OK. Talk about deciding how to play that and whether you talked about how to play those final notes, whether you talked about it with Ron Cephas Jones.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
To prove his point, he writes a book conforming to those expectations, using a pen name to disguise his identity. He's offered a huge advance, the book becomes a bestseller, and he gets even more money when the film rights are sold. But the pseudonym leads to unexpected trouble. Sterling K. Brown plays the writer's brother.
Fresh Air
Sterling K. Brown Was Told By Hollywood To Lose The "Smart-Guy Thing"
Did you audition with him for that scene?
Fresh Air
Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. We're continuing our end of the year series, featuring a few of the 2024 interviews we've particularly enjoyed. On this episode, we have an interview with Mark Ruffalo. This year, he was nominated for an Oscar in the Best Supporting Actor category for his role in the movie Poor Things, directed by Yorgos Lanthimos.
Fresh Air
Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
Mark Ruffalo spoke with our producer Sam Brigger in February. Our holiday week series, featuring a few of the 2024 interviews we particularly enjoyed, continues tomorrow with actor Sterling K. Brown. He was nominated for an Oscar this year for his supporting role in the film American Fiction. He's also known for his roles in the series This Is Us, The People vs. O.J.
Fresh Air
Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
Simpson, and for the film Black Panther. but he started out as an economics major at Stanford and he interned at the Fed. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski.
Fresh Air
Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. All of us at Fresh Air wish you a happy, fulfilling, and healthy 2025.
Fresh Air
Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
He spoke with our producer, Sam Brigger, in February about that role and his career. Here's Sam.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
While we're on the subject of Judaism, were you bar mitzvahed?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
He's also troubled by the disconnect between the nice restaurants the tour takes them to while at the same time the death camp Majdanek is on the tour. Our critic John Powers wrote, quote, unquote. It's worth mentioning that the film also has comic touches. Jesse Eisenberg, welcome to Fresh Air and congratulations on the film.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Oh, that's such a great story. Okay, let me reintroduce you and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jesse Eisenberg. He wrote, directed, and stars with Kieran Culkin in the film A Real Pain, which is now streaming on multiple platforms. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week in exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. So I want to play a clip from A Real Pain. And this is a scene that not only shows the kind of emotional turbulence that the Kieran Culkin character is going through.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
He plays your cousin, and he's the one who is very prone to severe depression. But he also gets kind of manic when he's around people. And I don't know if you would describe him as bipolar, but those are the two extremes of character that he goes through. So in this scene, everyone on this small tour is at a restaurant.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
And your character is talking about the grandmother and how she survived the Nazis through a thousand miracles. So before we hear the scene, I just want to say you're going to hear a couple of very loud burps during the scene. And that is the Kieran Culkin character who will be doing the burping. Here's the scene.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Pee-pee time. So that's an example of how really inappropriate Karen Culkin, who plays your cousin, can be. Tell us why you wanted to create that difference, because this is another really important dynamic in the film. You've both had a very similar upbringing. You lived close to each other when you were children. You were like brothers. You were born three weeks apart. Right.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
or three months apart, I forget which. But now you're living in separate cities in New York. You're in New York City. He's in Binghamton. And you've gone in different directions. He seems totally rootless. And you have a good job. You're married. You have a child. You have a nice home. And he's lived in his mother's basement.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
We don't know if he's still there or where he is or if he has any home at all. So why did you want to create that wide range, that big dynamic of difference between the two cousins?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
So your character in the film is dealing with OCD and he's medicated for it. So we don't see a lot of OCD, but we do see that you live a very structured life in the film and that Karen Culkin's character is a rule breaker. So I'd like to talk with you, if you're willing, about like your own inner issues.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
So is OCD a thing for you or is it something different?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Jesse Eisenberg wrote, directed, and stars in the film A Real Pain. Oscar predictors expect the film to be nominated for multiple Academy Awards. Eisenberg had his first major film role in 2002's Roger Dodger when he was still in high school. Three years later, when he was 21, he was a star of the film The Squid and the Whale.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Oh, it's a pleasure to have you. So the movie is based in part in a movie you were making, a kind of road movie set in Mongolia. And it wasn't working for you. That's right. And then you saw an ad advertising like a Holocaust tour, a Jewish heritage tour, and it said lunch included. And you thought, okay, this is something. What intrigued you about that, especially the lunch included part?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Do you feel like something like OCD ever works in your favor? Like if you're producing a movie or directing a movie, there are so many details that you have to take care of and so much you have to pay attention to.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
And I was thinking that maybe, and I might be misdiagnosing the symptoms of OCD, that maybe that your brain would be wired in such a way that you would have almost a need to obsess on details. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
When Kieran Culkin refuses to stand on his mark, does part of you go into a panic?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jesse Eisenberg. He wrote, directed, and stars with Kieran Culkin in the film A Real Pain, which is streaming now on multiple platforms. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
I want to get back to your emotional state and how it may or may not have changed over the years. When you were young and were going to school, you've said that in first grade, you cried every day on the bus. What was your reaction to crying in front of all the other kids on the bus?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Whoa, whoa, slow down. You were kicked out of preschool because you locked your mom in the closet because you didn't want to be separated from her?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
So I wasn't like you and I was growing up, but I could cry pretty easily. And then when my parents would say, stop crying, or an alternate was, stop crying, or I'll give you something to cry about. And I think, you know, and I thought like... I didn't have the words to express it then, but that was so not helpful.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
It just makes you cry even harder. Of course. Because all this anger is coming at you. Of course. Stop it. And you know you can't. I'm not trying to cry. Right, exactly. It's not a willful thing. Did anybody ever tell you stop crying? No.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
What was your experience like when you were in a mental health institution?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Well, I'm thinking of a couple of things. One is, like, I'm wondering if being inhibited is like the swing of the pendulum in the opposite direction.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
For acting out, because you're acting out in such a stream way, an extreme way, and inhibition is about holding things in.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
If you're just joining us, my guest is Jesse Eisenberg. He wrote, directed, and stars with Kieran Culkin in the new film, A Real Pain. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Did becoming an actor really young change your thoughts about yourself or your ability to be around other people, your ability to be on your own, and to think that you had something to contribute?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
I love something you said about acting and why acting has been so helpful to you. You said you're given a prescribed way of behaving. And so instead of having to figure out what to do in a situation, you're playing a character who has a script and you know how the character is supposed to behave. You know what they're supposed to say. And that, I guess, was relatively relaxing. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
The pressure of acting was nothing compared to the pressure of being yourself.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Your mother was a director and choreographer in a high school, among other things that she's done. Was that helpful to you when you started acting?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Here's something I'm curious about. So in the film The Social Network, you played Mark Zuckerberg. When you hosted Saturday Night Live, he did a bit with you. When Zuckerberg does something that really makes news, especially when he does something that a lot of people really don't like, like ending fact-checking on Meta, do you feel personally connected to that?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Well, another question the movie raises is like, what is real pain? Like, what is suffering? Like, if you're suffering from, you know, emotional or mental health issues, and I know you have issues of your own. The character has OCD. I don't know if that's an issue you have to contend with.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
So I want to close with some music from the soundtrack of the film. There's some beautiful Chopin music throughout the film. And were you familiar with that music before making the movie?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Beautiful. It has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
But if you have your own internal suffering, and let's face it, people take their lives because of that internal suffering. Like you don't even have to have somebody kill you. You end your own life because the suffering is so bad. But you haven't been in Auschwitz suffering there. But so is your suffering any less important? Does that count as pain? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be Pamela Anderson. She became a pop culture phenomenon in the late 80s, in part because of her role on the series Baywatch. But there's much more to her than that. She's received award nominations from the Golden Globes and the Screen Actors Guild for her role in the new film The Last Showgirl. A Netflix documentary about her was nominated for an Emmy.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
I hope you'll join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Rebo Donato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
He played Mark Zuckerberg in The Social Network about the early days of Facebook. He played the journalist interviewing writer David Foster Wallace in The End of the Tour. He starred in the 2022 miniseries Fleischman is in Trouble.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Okay, so you are a writer and director and actor, and you were not only in Majdanek, the death camp in Poland, you were filming there, because you do have a scene there, and it's a very emotionally moving scene. So I'd like to hear what it was like for you to not only have lunch and dinner while visiting Majdanek, you were filming there, you were taking this kind of like...
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
holy place and setting up your lights and your cameras and your actors. How did you go about it in the most respectful way that you could think of while also making a movie?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
In a real pain, he plays a husband and father who goes on a Jewish heritage tour in Poland with his cousin, played by Kieran Culkin, who was like a brother when they were growing up. The trip is funded by their beloved, recently deceased grandmother, who left money in her will for the trip so that they could see the home she fled when the Nazis were in power.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
And also you were shooting it as a museum. You weren't shooting it trying to pretend that it was still a death camp.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
You became a Polish citizen, so what moved you to do that?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
So the grandmother in the movie is based in part on your aunt. And tell us something about her. Like when did she flee Poland? How did she survive the Holocaust?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Each cousin is dealing with mental health issues, which are exacerbated by the trip. Eisenberg's character is introverted and takes meds for his OCD. He's constantly hurt and embarrassed by his cousin's inappropriate behavior.
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Did your aunt and your cousins' experiences in Nazi Poland, did those experiences make them any more Jewish or any more secular?
Fresh Air
Jesse Eisenberg Hated Bar Mitzvahs As A Kid
Culkin's character is dealing with depression, but when around other people, he becomes extroverted, manic in ways that can be seen as charismatic or incredibly annoying and intrusive. Both extremes are intensified by the disconnect Culkin's character experiences between the first-class train car the tour travels on and the cattle cars that brought Jews to their death.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
In 2019, music critic John Pirellis wrote in the New York Times, Eilish, age 17, has spent the last few years establishing herself as the negation of what a female teen pop star used to be. She doesn't play innocent or ingratiating or flirtatious or perky or cute. Instead, she's sullen, depressive, death-haunted, sly, analytical and confrontational, all without raising her voice.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
But on a related note, you often dress on videos and in performance on stage in really baggy clothes. And I was thinking, since you grew up with a lot of hip-hop, in a lot of hip-hop performances on stage and in videos, the dancers or the women in the videos are usually dressed, and especially earlier in the period when you were growing up, were dressed in really...
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
tight and scanty kind of clothes. And the men are wearing like baggy hoodies and pants that are so baggy they're like falling down. And in that sense, did you take your cue from the men in hip hop in terms of dress as opposed to the women?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is nominated for seven Grammys. His new solo album is called For Crying Out Loud. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Let's start with a song from Hit Me Hard and Soft. This is L'Amour de ma Vie, which is French for The Love of My Life.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
I want to play Ocean Eyes, which is the first thing that you recorded together. You put it on SoundCloud. It went viral for reasons I don't understand how things by people unknown go viral. But it did. To be honest with you, Terry, I also don't understand. I don't understand either. Good. Thank you for the validation.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
So I want to play that song because, Billy, you were talking earlier about how when you started recording when you were 13, you were much younger, your voice was different. But, Phineas, I want to ask you first. I think not many teenage boys would think like, oh, I want to hang out and write songs with and record with my younger sister who's 13. What made you think, oh, Billy has to sing this?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Because I know initially you were going to write it for your band.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Okay, so let's listen to Ocean Eyes as recorded by the 13-year-old Billie Eilish and the 17 or 18? I was 18. 18-year-old Phineas. So here it is.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
That was Ocean Eyes, the first song that Billie Eilish and Phineas recorded together, a song written by Phineas, recorded at home that went viral and really launched their careers. Your mother, when she was homeschooling you, gave you classes on songwriting. Are there insights that she gave you both that stuck with you?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
If you're just joining us, my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, and their latest album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. We'll be right back after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. As you probably know, they're siblings who write songs together. She sings on their albums. He produces and plays several instruments. They've been writing and recording together since she was 13 and he was 18. Considering the number of records they've broken in the last few years, they're more than popular.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
I want to play another song from your new album, Hit Me Hard and Soft. And this song is called Skinny. And Billy, it's talking about how people think you look happy because you're skinny, you know, that you lost weight. But you're right, but I still cry. Did losing weight make a difference in your life? And do you like bounce back and forth?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Because that's something so many people in your audience would relate to.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
That's a great relationship to have. Let's hear the song. This is Skinny from Billie Eilish's new album, which is called Hit Me Hard and Soft.
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Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billy Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Billy, it strikes me you're singing more in a fuller voice. What's changing about your voice and how you choose to use it?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
That's Skinny, and my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas, and their new album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. I think some of your fans think that you're reading their mind or telling their story. Mm-hmm.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Phineas, you have a new album, and I want to play a song from that. So I want to end with Family Feud because your family is so important to you both and the way you still operate as a family because I think your parents are often touring with you, or at least they used to. So this is your song, Phineas. It's from your new album. Do you want to just say a couple of words about writing it?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billy Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you coming on our show, and good luck with the rest of your tours.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billie Eilish and Phineas' latest album together is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. It's currently nominated for seven Grammys. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Our critic-at-large John Power spends his time leapfrogging between movies, books, TV shows, music, and sporting events. He didn't get to review everything he liked this year. So what he does is each year at the end of the year, he chooses a few things he didn't get to that he still wants to celebrate.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
This year's edition includes everything from a comic performance to a political documentary to a great moment at the Paris Olympics.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
John Powers is our critic at large. By the way, the first thing that he talked about at the top of his review was the novel All Fours by Miranda July. And coincidentally, Thursday, Miranda July will be my guest. If you're one of over 100 million people in the U.S. on TikTok, that may end on January 19th.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
A new law is forcing the Beijing-based company to find a non-Chinese buyer for the site or face a ban in the U.S. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we'll look at what this means and if the Supreme Court or Trump could intervene. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Did you want to do a whispery voice? Was that like a style choice or just like that's the way your voice sounds?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
I want to play a track because I like the instrumentation, the arrangement so much, and it's called The Diner. So Phineas, do you want to say a little bit about the instrumental track of this?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
They're a phenomenon. Their album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?, was the second in Grammy history to win in the major categories Best Record, Album, Song, and New Artist all in the same year. Phineas was the youngest person to receive a Grammy for Producer of the Year, non-classical.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
That was The Diner from the new Billie Eilish album, Hit Me Hard and Soft. And my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas. Phineas, you're not on all of the current tour that Billie is on, and you've just released your second solo album. Does that have significant meaning in terms of the nature of your music partnership?
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billy was the youngest to win two Oscars, one for the theme for the Bond film No Time to Die and another for What Was I Made For from the Barbie movie. She collaborated on both songs with Phineas. They're continuing to break records. Billie was the youngest most listened to artist on Spotify this year.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billy, can you talk a little bit about when you were a teenager and you had all these like teenage teenagers, especially teenage girls as like such dedicated fans? What was it like for you to grow up? as a teenage star with so many teenage listeners, kind of idolizing you.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
And then judging from what I've seen and read about you, you've been kind of insecure about yourself, not necessarily of your music, but for any insecurity you have, to have all these people turning you into an idol must have been, or maybe was, a little disorienting? Definitely.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Well, you were homeschooled, so it's not like you were hanging out in the schoolyard or in the classrooms with your peers.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is now nominated for seven Grammys, including all the major categories. Each of its tracks reached over 150 million streams on Spotify. Phineas also has an independent career as a producer and recording artist. His second solo album was recently released, called For Cryin' Out Loud. Billie spent her teen years in front of her fans and the press.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Phineas, what's it been like for you, especially early on when Billy was very young and you were still in your teens, your late teens? What was it like for you to have an audience dominated by teenage girls when you're a guy and you're also older? You're four or five years older than Billy.
Fresh Air
Billie Eilish & Finneas
Billie, I've read that some girls or young women in the audience are throwing their bras onto the stage when you perform. How often does that happen? Do you have any idea how that started? I mean, that's like a classic. Well, it used to be panties that, you know, women would throw at male stars, you know.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Sebastian Stan, is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice. It begins in 1973 when Trump is 27, still working for his father's real estate development company and trying to make a name for himself. The company is being sued for discriminating against black people in its rental units.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Tell me about what you experienced doing that.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Stan, and he's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice. And he won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in A Different Man. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
You grew up in Romania, and when you were growing up, I think you lived there till, what, the age of eight or nine?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Yeah, so you were very young during the end of communism in Romania when the dictator Nicolae Ceausescu was overthrown. He was the head of the Communist Party there. There were protests. There were violent confrontations between the protesters and police. In 1989, as Ceausescu and his wife tried to escape, they were captured. He stood trial, found guilty, and was executed.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
How aware were you as a child of what was happening in the country you were living in?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So your father was able to get out of Romania before the communist government fell. And I know he helped other people get out as well. Was he still married to your mother at the time?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Were you ever able to talk to him about this?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Were you surprised to hear some of the things he told you about his past?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
When you came here, you had already lived in Romania. You had to learn German from scratch when you and your mother moved to Vienna. And I think, how old were you when you came to the U.S.?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Okay, so you grow up in Romania where there's an hour of TV a night and it's probably just propaganda. And then you move to America where everybody just like watches TV and goes to the movies. And is it before, probably before the heavy days of the internet and social media?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
You say it blew your mind, but I can imagine that a lot of pop culture did because you weren't a part of it. You didn't get to grow up with it the way everybody around you in America did.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
What did you do to try to catch up?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
It seems like you spent part of your early life in hiding. Literally, you had to watch what you said in Romania. In Vienna, you had to learn German to fit in, and you had to learn that from scratch. You come to America, you try to be like other teens, even though you had a totally different background than American teens did.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So there's a lot that you had to acquire and a lot probably that you had to hide.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
We need to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice. And he won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in A Different Man. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. So retracing your path again. So you grew up in Romania.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
When you're around eight or nine, you move to Vienna where your mother is. Is your mother still alive?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So she took you and moved to Vienna. And there in Vienna, she met a man who she fell in love with, who was the headmaster of a private school in Rockland County, New York on the Hudson River.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
And that's how your mother met your stepfather.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So you started acting in high school. Were you in musicals?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Oh, I love the idea of you doing Grease because you didn't really know what American teenagers were like and you were trying to be an American teenager and here you are in Grease.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Sebastian Stan, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I think you're great.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So you were 21 when you got your breakthrough role in Law & Order. Yes. Playing a 15-year-old boy. This was in the Jerry Orbach, Sam Waterston era.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
And so you played a 15-year-old who's kidnapped when he's very little. His kidnapper told him that his parents were dead and raised him as if he was really the father. And the kid believes, like, this is my father. And the father, or kidnapper, is accused of murder, of being a sniper. And it's discovered that it was really the kid who did it. Did I have that right? No.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So after choosing that clip, first of all, I should say some listeners were probably thinking he doesn't sound like Trump. What would you say to that?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Okay. So at some point, the kid's actual mother, who he believes is dead, and his sister, who he's never met, I don't think, are brought in to meet the boy. And the boy does not have a very good reaction to it. So let's hear that scene.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
It's us, Justin. Jenny and Mom.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Can I go now? Okay, a lot of people, when they're on Law & Order for the first time, they're like a dead body. But you got to have this emotional breakdown in it.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
What was hard about it? What was hard?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
What was it like to see yourself on TV, and what was it like to have other people see you on TV?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Trump convinces his father to hire Roy Cohn as their attorney. Cohn was infamous for being the chief counsel to Senator Joe McCarthy's Senate investigation into suspected communists. Cohn becomes Trump's mentor, teaching him how to admit nothing and deny everything, go on the attack, and intimidate through the threat of lawsuits or through actually filing lawsuits.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
I have an acting question about the clip that we heard where your response to hearing it was so much acting. If you were to give your younger self notes now based on that scene, what notes would you give? Yeah.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Okay, we need to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice, and he won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in A Different Man. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. So I'm thinking about your mother here.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Your mother moves with you and your new stepfather to New York. It's always hard to uproot a child and uproot them to another country. That's probably super hard.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
But I'm thinking the life you have now, the respect and fame that you've achieved, all that you've accomplished must make her feel really good about the decisions that she made and alleviate any guilt that she might have experienced at the beginning when you were trying so hard to acclimate to a new country.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So at the Oscars, I always wonder, what's it like if you lose and the camera is on you and you have to pretend like, I'm so happy for the winner. That's so wonderful.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Sebastian Stanis, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and good luck at the Oscars.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role in the film The Apprentice. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we'll talk about how Elon Musk got and is using the power to cut jobs slash federal funding and help place people close to him in government positions. We'll also discuss the influence other tech billionaires are having on the Trump administration.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
My guest will be New York Times reporter Teddy Schleifer, who covers the intersection of Washington's players and tech titans. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Rebo Donato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Bea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
After choosing that clip, I read that you improvised some of that scene.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
You made the film while Biden was president in between Trump's two terms. What's it like watching his second term after having played him?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Cohn is played by Jeremy Strong, who's also nominated for an Oscar. Last month, Stan won a Golden Globe for his starring role in A Different Man, as a man who's disfigured by a genetic condition that has grown fleshy tumors on his face. The tumors disappear after taking a new drug, and he emerges quite attractive, but remains alienated and withdrawn from other people.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Playing him, I'm sure you had to be him and see things from his point of view, which requires you, the actor, to have empathy for Trump, the character that you're portraying.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Trump sent a cease and desist letter to the filmmakers trying to prevent the film from opening in the U.S. He accused the film of defamation and interference in the election. The film was set to be released in the fall of 2024, a couple of months before the election.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
I'm wondering with that cease and desist letter if you felt like you were suddenly or your film was suddenly the target of the same kind of tactics again. that you learned as Donald Trump in the film so that you were living the tactics that are played out in the film, except this time you weren't Trump. You were on the other end. You were on the receiving end of the threats.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
In the film I, Tonya, Sebastian Stan played Tonya Harding's boyfriend, who plots to disable her ice skating competitor Nancy Kerrigan. In the miniseries Pam and Tommy, he played Tommy Lee, Motley Crue's drummer and Pamela Anderson's husband. A lot of Stan's fans know him from the Marvel Cinematic Universe as Bucky Barnes, a recurring character in the Captain America films.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So regarding the film on Trump's social media platform, Truth Social, he wrote, So sad the human scum, like the people involved in this hopefully unsuccessful enterprise, are allowed to say and do whatever they want to hurt a political movement, which is far bigger than any of us. MAGA 2024
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
When you came to America after growing up under communism in Romania, then moving to Vienna with your mother and then coming to the U.S., I'm sure you didn't expect to become a famous actor.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
I'm really sure you didn't expect to portray a former and now current American president and have the president see the whole film as an insult, try to stop it from opening and call everybody involved with the film human scum.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So what did it feel like when that happened?
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Do you sense an element of fear in the entertainment industry now? I mean, Trump has promised retribution against his perceived enemies.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
I want to move on to another new film of yours, which has been playing on HBO lately, and I assume on Max. And that's A Different Man, for which you won a Golden Globe in January. And in this film, you're afflicted with neurofibromatosis, which is a genetic disease. That creates fleshy tumors, and for you, fleshy tumors on the face.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
Let's start with a scene from The Apprentice. Trump is planning to build Trump Tower and is trying to convince New York City Mayor Ed Koch that it will be so extraordinary, Koch should give him tax breaks. It will be so good for New York. Roy Cohn is also in the room. You'll hear him jumping into the conversation.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
So you're kind of treated a bit like an outcast because people stare at you. They might move away. The character who you're attracted to, who seems to be very fond of you, just recoils when you try to touch her. So then you're part of a new drug experimental trial, and the drug cures the condition. The tumors kind of fall away, and you're very attractive underneath. You have a beautiful face.
Fresh Air
For Sebastian Stan, 'The Apprentice' Playing In Theaters Was The Win
It's your face. It's Sebastian Stan's face. But your character doesn't change. You're alienated. You're isolated. And that's not going to change. I'm wondering how much this film made you think about looks and how looks determine how people are treated in this world, which is something a lot of us think about all the time.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Well, in doing your research, you think that his mother was a sex worker and that his sister became a sex worker while his mother was in jail and she needed to earn some money. And as a kid, that Armstrong helped out, worked for sex workers. And as a young man, he tried being a fan.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Well, let's stop at that for a second because he spent a couple of years there after being arrested for possession of a gun. He was still a minor and for shooting it in the air. You think it was his mother's gun.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
She wrote or co-wrote several songs Armstrong recorded and was instrumental in landing his first recording date. Through writing about Armstrong, Riccardi's new book has a lot to say about segregation in New Orleans in the first part of the 20th century. The new book is called Stomp Off, Let's Go, which is the title of a song he recorded with another band led by Erskine Tate.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
So he was sent to the Colored Waif's home for boys for, what, a couple of years?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
And that's where he really got his start as an instrumentalist.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
We need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ricky Riccardi. He's the author of the new book, Stomp Off, Let's Go! The Early Years of Louis Armstrong. It's his third book about Armstrong. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Another thing about Louis Armstrong's early years is that he started working as a child. He loaded coal and kind of ran the junkyard truck or wagon for the Karnovsky family, a Jewish family in New Orleans. And on the one hand, it was child labor. And, you know, like the loading and unloading of the coal that he delivered almost like broke his back, literally.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Ricky Riccardi, welcome to Fresh Air. What a joy it was to do the research for this, you know, being forced to listen again to Hot 5 and Hot 7 recordings. I love Armstrong's recordings, particularly like the ones through the 1940s. But you've written about all of them, like his whole life of recordings. So let's start with one of his great recordings. And this is West End Blues.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
On the other hand, the Karnofsky family, a Jewish family, treated him pretty well, and they encouraged his singing. This was before he had a cornet. They encouraged his singing. They recognized his talent. And he credits them for helping launch his career in Hawaii because they encouraged him when he was very young.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
And also he developed an affection for Jewish food and for Jewish music of the time, which you can hear in some of his playing. Tell us some of the things he said about loading coal and unloading coal there.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Well, let's hear another recording by Armstrong. I'm going to play Cornette Chop Suey. And you say about that, that it had the effect on instrumentalists that heebie-jeebies had on singers. So what is the importance of this song in terms of American music and in terms of Armstrong's career?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
And it's what you describe as one of the most iconic recordings of the 20th century. Tell us why.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
So we're going to feature the stop time part in this recording. So you described the stop time part as thrilling, but I want you to describe what stop time is for people who don't know.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Here's a question for you. Who do you think was the first black pop star? The answer is Louis Armstrong, according to one of the leading experts on Armstrong's life and music, my guest, Ricky Riccardi. He's just published his third book about Armstrong.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
That was Cornette Chop Suey, Louis Armstrong's Hot Five, recorded in 1926. And my guest is Ricky Riccardi, author of the new book, Stomp Off, Let's Go, The Early Years of Louis Armstrong. It's his third book about Armstrong. We'll be back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
So I want to jump ahead to Armstrong's last chapter of life. So I'm going to jump ahead to 1971. And your book begins with this story. And it's a very moving start that really pays tribute to Armstrong's love and complete dedication to playing music. In 1971, he signs a two-week contract for two shows a night at a newly renovated studio
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
nightclub called the Empire Room at the Waldorf Astoria in New York, even though he'd recently been in the ICU with kidney problems and I think heart problems as well?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
And his doctor warned him he could die on stage. Armstrong didn't seem to care because his life was his music. So what deal did the doctor made with Armstrong?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
I think this would be a good time to play Armstrong and his Savvy Ballroom Five, recorded in 1928. So this is the final side that he made in Chicago before moving to New York. And you say it sums up his entire life up until that point. How so?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Okay, well, let's hear it. It's a great recording. This is Louis Armstrong and his Savoy Ballroom Five. And what we're going to do is focus on that solo that you just described. ¦
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
That was Louis Armstrong, Tight Like This, recorded in 1928. My guest is Ricky Riccardi, who is the author of the new book, Stomp Off, Let's Go. It's about the early years of Louis Armstrong. We'll be back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
So you are the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum. You've been that since 2009. And what it is, it's the house where Armstrong and his fourth wife, Lucille, lived for about 20 years until his death. And it was transformed into a museum. And it's the world's largest archive focusing on one musician.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
One of the amazing things in that collection is 700 hours of tape that Armstrong recorded. Some of it is music, but a lot of it is his thoughts, you know, him kind of thinking out loud, sharing memories of the past, as well as it has conversations with friends and fellow musicians. And it must be very exciting to have access to that.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
What are some of the gems that you found in that 700 hours of tape?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
And some people thought of him as an Uncle Tom.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Every bit of his work. But why don't we choose something from the 30s and 40s? Because it's kind of like represents the next chapter of his musical life. And we haven't played him actually singing. We've played him scatting.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Okay. So why do you consider Armstrong the first black pop star?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Ricky Riccardi, it's just been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Okay. And Ricky Riccardi is the author of the new book, Stomp Off, Let's Go, The Early Years of Louis Armstrong. Thank you again.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
If you'd like to catch up on fresh air interviews you missed, like our conversation with Questlove about his new documentary covering 50 years of music on Saturday Night Live, or our interview with journalist Derek Thompson on our nation's loneliness epidemic, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of fresh air interviews. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakunde, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
This one is about Armstrong's early years, his rough childhood, his first recordings with other bands, and his famous first recordings with his own group, the Hot Five and Hot Seven.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Well, I want to play a song that made him a star, and that's Heebie Jeebies from 1926. It's a Hot Five recording. And it's considered the first example of scat, at least the first time it was called scat. So the story that's always told is that Armstrong started singing syllables, scat, instead of words because he dropped the sheet music and didn't remember the words.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
There's other versions of the story of how he started scatting. Which do you think is the most authentic story?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
As Riccardi points out, those two early groups that Armstrong led, recorded between 1926 and 28, over the course of 25 months, those recordings have been studied by up-and-coming musicians around the world because they provide the foundational language necessary to master the art of improvisation.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Okay, so let's listen to this 1926 recording of Louis Armstrong's Hot Five, his first scatting on record, and this is Hebe Jebe.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
So that was Louis Armstrong and his Hot Five, recorded in 1926, heebie-jeebies, which is considered the first recorded scatting. It's interesting, when he played in New Orleans with King Oliver, and when he played in New York with Fletcher Henderson before starting his own bands, nobody wanted him to sing. And he became so famous and so loved for his singing. Why didn't they want him to sing?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
For instrumental soloists and vocalists, Riccardi says Armstrong's innovations as both a trumpeter and vocalist set the entire soundtrack of the 20th century in motion. Riccardi has been the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum since 2009. It's the world's largest archive focusing on one musician.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
And he was singing before he was playing trumpet.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
I want to play him backing up a singer because this is a famous early example of his playing. Bessie Smith in 1925 recorded St. Louis Blues. And this is before Armstrong had his own band. And he's playing trumpet behind her. And it's quite beautiful and very sympathetic to what he's singing. Do you want to say anything else to introduce this track?
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
Well, let's hear it. This is 1925, Bessie Smith with Louis Armstrong on trumpet, St. Louis Blues.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
You know, it's really remarkable and lucky for us that Armstrong was able to reach such iconic status and have such a long and productive career considering the circumstances he grew up in. Describe for us the neighborhood he grew up in in New Orleans and just remind us, too, of the year he was born.
Fresh Air
How Louis Armstrong Became The First Black Pop Star
It gave Riccardi access to previously inaccessible documents, including 700 hours of Armstrong recordings of his thoughts and his music, the unedited and unsweetened version of his autobiography, and several chapters of an unpublished autobiography by his second wife, Lil Hardin, who was also the pianist in The Hot Five.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. The unintentional inclusion of journalist Jeffrey Goldberg in a messaging app group chat of U.S. national security leaders outlining U.S. plans to attack the Houthis in Yemen has certainly increased awareness of who the Houthis are. I realize that is not the main takeaway of this story, but it's kind of where my guest Robert Wirth fits in.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
And I want to say before we start, we are recording less than an hour after the transcript was released by Jeffrey Goldberg of the entire chat that he was mistakenly included in. So what's your reaction to this Goldberg story? Not to the transcript, but to his inclusion in this and what that says.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
So, you know, you raise the question in your article, like, who do you believe, the former terrorist or the moderating force? Because al-Sharab embodies both. But your observation seems to be that he really did moderate. And maybe it's just because he wants power and he's being a pragmatist. But the fact is that he moderated. What are the signs of that that you see now in Syria?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
This is when he was taking over Syria and forcing out Assad.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
We need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Wirth, a contributing writer at The Atlantic. His new article is about Syria's transitional president, Ahmed al-Sharah, titled, Can One Man Hold Syria Together? A Former Jihadist Has Remade Himself in a Bid to Remake a Scarred and Divided Country. We'll talk more after a short break.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. What are Shiraz's biggest accomplishments so far?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
So, you know, when Shara was trying to stop sectarian violence, he called in reinforcements. And you say thousands of gunmen poured into the region, including foreign jihadists who helped capture the capital in December. That doesn't sound like a recipe for stabilizing the country.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
Was that because they had been under Assad's control and they were horrible? Yeah.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
There's also like conflicting militias in Syria because there were different militias fighting the Assad regime. But now that the country seems more stable and Assad is gone, what's happening with these different militias? Are they still fighting each other?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
Under Assad, there was a culture of informing, informing on friends and neighbors and people you work with. And you write about the shop that handled a lot of that, including like the costumes, the makeup, the wigs as disguises. Can you describe what was in this surveillance center? Sure.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
So Shara is now trying to run a really large country with this, as you put it, this skeleton crew of a government made up mostly of people he's known and trusted for years, including his brother, who is the acting minister of health. And here's an example of what's happening now.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
The superintendent of schools in a region where the Alawites are in the majority and the Alawites are the minority group that Assad was part of. So they're a minority group, but they were in power for years. And there's a lot of hatred of that group because of the Assad regime. So the superintendent of schools is in a region where the Alawites are in the majority.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
And a video had emerged of him delivering a sermon in 2023 in which he said, "...I ask Almighty God to cleanse our eyes by purifying our country of the filth of the Alawites, Shiites, and Jews." What has the reaction been to that, to the uncovering of that video?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
Part of the transcript that Goldberg did initially released has J.D. Vance, vice president, saying, I just hate bailing out the Europeans again. And Pete Hexeth, secretary of defense, responds, I fully share your loathing of European freeloading. It's pathetic, with pathetic in capital letters.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Wirth. He's a contributing writer for The Atlantic. His new article is about Syria's transitional president, Ahmad al-Shara. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air. So in spite of Shara's efforts to moderate in Syria, there's still plenty of signs of radical Islam.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
And I want you to describe the Dawah who were in charge of spreading Islam with songs and recitations and your encounter with them.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
So, you know, just as background, explain what the Houthis have been doing that these airstrikes were retaliation for.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
So where do Alawites fit in in terms of religion?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
You did something that I thought was incredibly brave. You asked to join a truck with two dozen armed men. These are in pickup trucks, and they were gearing up for a raid on a mission to seize and destroy hidden drugs that the Assad regime was using as their main source of revenue in the final years of the regime. They were all armed. You didn't know them.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
How did you find out what their mission was, and why did you decide to take the risk to go with them?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
Yeah, I've never heard of Captagon before. So would you explain what kind of drug it is?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
He has been reporting on the Houthis for over a decade, most recently in The Atlantic, the same publication where Jeffrey Goldberg serves as editor-in-chief. Before Goldberg revealed his inclusion in the chat, we invited Robert Wirth to talk about his new article on The Atlantic, which is about Syria's new leader, Ahmed al-Sharah. Sharah is something of a wild card.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
I'm going to start off by saying hi to the viewers. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
How much does Europe benefit more than the U.S. does by freeing up the shipping lanes in the Middle East?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
So what message does this send to our European allies?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
The Trump administration has been saying that the Biden administration's attacks on the Houthis, they didn't really accomplish much. They weren't well handled. Does that seem accurate to you?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
Maybe he'll bring unity and stability to Syria, which he says is his goal. But he's a former jihadist and founded the Syrian branch of the Islamist terrorist group al-Qaeda. Shira led the attacks that overthrew the brutal Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, and he's now serving as the transitional president of Syria.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
So Iran backs the Houthis. In dealing with the Houthis, how much do you have to take into account Iran and what Iran's response might be?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
So let's talk about your new article, which is about Syria and its new transitional president, who's a very interesting and kind of mysterious figure in a lot of ways. But first, I want you to tell us Syria's importance in the whole instability of the Middle East right now. Where does Syria fit in?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
He says he wants to maintain peace, create unity and inclusion, and prevent revenge killings. Considering the ongoing revenge killings, the conflicts between militia groups, and the destruction of 14 years of civil war, this is going to be a very hard job to do. Wirth's article is titled, Can One Man Hold Syria Together?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
And he's talked about moving from beyond a revolutionary mindset, which can topple a regime but can't rebuild a state. So how is he radicalized in the first place? You're right that he grew up in a pretty wealthy neighborhood in Damascus. He was considered a studious and shy boy when he was in school. So he became more radical, I think, at the age of 19. How did he become radicalized?
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
A Former Jihadist Has Remade Himself in a Bid to Remake a Scarred and Divided Country." Robert Worth is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and has spent more than two decades writing about the Middle East, Europe, and Asia. Robert Wirth, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria
And I'll repeat that he founded the Syrian branch of al-Qaeda.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
When you were preparing for your role as a narcotics cop for French Connection, how did you see this role as comparing to other cops that you'd seen portrayed in movies?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Would you be able to tell us how you answered them?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
So when you ask yourself, what do I have to do to become that person in a role, what answers did you give yourself? What did you have to do to become that person?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
You know, you were talking before about how when you do a character, you have to ask yourself, what's similar about me in this character? What's different about me in this character? What would I have to do to fill in the gap between what he would do and what I would do? In at least two recent movies, you played characters with a real sadistic streak, the sheriff in Unforgiven.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
and the sheriff in The Quick and the Dead. And these were characters who definitely had a strong sadistic streak. What do you do to get in the spirit of a character like that?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Well, it's green. You know, the great sadists always have a lot of charisma.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
So it must be fun to play roles like that.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Do you get offers for Kindly Old Gentleman kind of roles?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
You've actually dropped out of acting a couple of times, didn't you?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So in one of the final scenes in Succession, the father has died. The children are fighting to keep the company while the head of another company is trying to buy it out. Kendall has pitched himself as the successor at the final board meeting before the decision is made. They're about to vote and each of the three siblings has a vote too. And the decisive vote is going to be the sister, Shiv's.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
And before she says what her vote is going to be, she calls a meeting in another room with you and Kieran Culkin's character. And she explains why she's not going to vote for you. And this refers back to when you confessed to your siblings that you had accidentally killed a young man while you were very high and he had a drug contact.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
And you were too high to be driving and you accidentally drove off the road into a lake and you couldn't rescue him from the car. So what you did was like run away and then like pretend like you had nothing to do with it. But you confessed to your father who covered it up for you and then you were indebted to him.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So I want to play that scene where the three siblings are in a separate room and Shiv, your character's sister, is explaining why she's not going to vote for you.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
He never came out and insisted that his disease wasn't AIDS, it was liver cancer. He was disbarred weeks before his death in 1986. Strong's performance personifies what was written about Cohn on his patch on the AIDS memorial quilt. It read, "'Bully. Coward. Victim.'" Let's start with a scene from early in the film, when Trump and Cohn first meet.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Such a great scene. And I should mention that Sarah Snook playing Shiv and Kieran Culkin playing Roman. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Strong. He stars in the new film The Apprentice as the unethical lawyer Rory Cohn, who became Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor when Trump was a young man. In the HBO series Succession, Strong played Kendall Roy.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Strong. In the new film The Apprentice, he plays Roy Cohn, the unethical lawyer who became Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor when Trump was a young man trying to establish himself as a real estate developer. Jeremy Strong is up for a Golden Globe as Best Supporting Actor for his performance in The Apprentice.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Strong's breakout role was in the HBO series Succession, in which he played Kendall Roy, one of the siblings competing to become the successor to their father, who reigns over a media empire but is old and possibly nearing death. So in the final scene of Succession, you've lost the company. You've lost everything that you've ever had or ever wanted.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
And you're sitting on a bench next to the Hudson River. The only thing that separates you is a guardrail. And you look so dejected and in such despair that it looks like you are seriously considering jumping into the river and ending it. Hmm. And the series ends like that. When I interviewed Jesse Armstrong after the end of the series, I asked him about that scene.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
And I want to play my question and what Jesse Armstrong had to say. And Jesse Armstrong wrote this episode and was the showrunner and creator of this series. So here we go.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
My understanding is that Jeremy Strong improvised a take in which he climbs over the railing from the pedestrian side of the river to the river side and looking as if he's really maybe about to jump in and his bodyguard like runs over to prevent that from happening. And that was improvised. Were you there when Jeremy Strong improvised that?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Trump has just gotten accepted to a private dining club in Manhattan. Cohn is seated at a table with several mobsters, including fat Tony Salerno, the boss of the Genovese crime family. When Cohn notices Trump, who he's never met, he asks his friend to bring Trump to the table. Cohn is interested in finding out who Trump is. Trump is played by Sebastian Stan. Jeremy Strong as Cohn speaks first.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So, Jeremy Strong, did you improvise that scene? Did you know you were going to do it?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Yeah. Was that something? So how did you end up doing it?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So when you're thinking of doing something as radical as changing the last moment of the series... Yeah, but it's only radical because maybe you weren't there for the way we made the whole show.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
I want to talk a little bit about your life. So you grew up in, I think, what you've described as a rough neighborhood in the Jamaica Plain area of Boston. And then your family moved to a suburb. What was the difference in neighborhoods and what was the difference in who you were in each neighborhood and how you tried, if you tried, to fit in?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
You mentioned your father worked in juvenile jails in the area. And I think he was kind of the equivalent of a warden. Is that fair to say? Yeah.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're kicking off our end-of-the-year series featuring some of the 2024 interviews we particularly enjoyed, starting with a great actor.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Well, let's take a short break here and then talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Strong. He played Kendall Roy in HBO's Succession. He now stars in the new film The Apprentice as the young Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Strong, who became famous for his role on HBO's Succession as Kendall Roy. He stars on the new film The Apprentice. It's about Donald Trump as a young man striving to become successful and his unethical lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn, played by Jeremy Strong. Both of your parents had very dramatic jobs.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
That's a lot of drama to grow up with. Was there a lot of discussion of their work in the house? Were you always hearing stories about kids who got into trouble and people who were dealing with imminent death and were in hospice?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Were there parts of yourself when you started acting as a child that you were glad to be liberated from?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Early in your career, you interned with or worked on crews for films with Daniel Day-Lewis, Dustin Hoffman, and Al Pacino, three very intense but very different actors. What was your relationship in each of those things? Like which films, which actors did you crew for?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
It was about the Shakespeare play, Richard III.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Jeremy Strong, welcome to Fresh Air. I love the film and that that scene has so much energy to it. You have such swagger in it.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
What would you say to your letters asking to work with Daniel Day-Lewis or Dustin Hoffman?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Did you get to talk to Daniel Day-Lewis or observe his method or anything?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Well, let's take a short break here and then talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Strong. He played Kendall Roy in HBO's Succession. He now stars in the new film The Apprentice as the young Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Oh, it is totally my pleasure. You know, a biopic is different from a film based on an original story. So you had a character who was a known person who you had to portray. What did you do to know, to watch, to listen to him before playing him?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Strong, who became famous for his role on HBO's Succession as Kendall Roy. He stars on the new film The Apprentice. It's about Donald Trump as a young man striving to become successful and his unethical lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn, played by Jeremy Strong. So I want to end with a song.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
There are two musical moments in Succession that really stand out. One was when you're practicing, you're kind of doing a soundcheck for your birthday party that you've planned. And it's a very elaborate, really ridiculous party that you've planned that doesn't work out well. But you're rehearsing or doing the soundcheck with the Billy Joel song, Honesty.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Oh, really? How did you choose that song? And I should mention that you sing it with conviction and earnestness, and everybody in the room is just cringing.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
The song I want to end with is L to the O.G.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Good. So if I listen to it any more times, so will I be able to. Okay, so this is like the rap that you do at your father's 50th anniversary of his business.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
And he wrote the great theme song to Succession.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So just one more question about that. The way you say L to the OG, the way your voice raises on the OG. Yeah. It's like a question mark. Usually in hip hop, there's a lot of assertion, you know, and almost arrogance, you know, like this is who I am.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So was that a choice to make it sound like a little like tentative and insecure, like a question as opposed to like an exclamation mark?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
That's really funny. So one more question and then I will let you go because I've kept you a long time. How did it feel to end your relationship with Kendall when the series ended? Did you feel liberated from him or did you miss him?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Well, it's just been great to talk with you. I admire your work so much. Thank you so much for being on our show.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So this is Jeremy Strong, who stars as Roy Cohn in the new movie, The Apprentice. And here's L to the OG, which he sings in succession. Thank you again.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Like many fans of HBO's Succession, I became a big fan of actor Jeremy Strong through his portrayal of the character Kendall Roy, one of the siblings hoping to take control of their father's media empire while the father is growing old and possibly nearing death. Strong won an Emmy for that performance and a Tony for his recent starring role on Broadway in Ibsen's An Enemy of the People.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
My interview with Jeremy Strong was recorded in October. He's nominated for a Golden Globe for his role as Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor Rory Cohn in the film The Apprentice. The award ceremony is Sunday, January 5th. The host will be Nikki Glaser. We'll hear my interview with Glaser on Monday.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
And tomorrow on Fresh Air, as our holiday week series continues, we'll hear Tanya Mosley's interview with TV journalist Connie Chung. Chung will talk about her climb to the top of her white male-dominated field, her love of hard news, and her nearly 40-year marriage to tabloid talk show host Maury Povich. I hope you'll join us.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Bodonato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakunde, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesberg. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Did you ever fact check any of it? Like, do you feel a responsibility to not only be have acting truth, but have, you know, like fact truth?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
And I should mention here that the film was written by Gabriel Sherman, who is a journalist who wrote a book about, you know, Murdoch and Fox News.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Right. Well, that's that's the thing. Like, I feel like your recent career is so connected to Trump.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
What I want to know is, do you feel very adjacent to Trump like that? You know, Trump, because your characters have been so, you know, related to Trump in one way or another and very directly related in The Apprentice.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Because I was going to ask you if you notate your scripts as if they were music. Because like in the scene that we just heard, there's real music in your voice. You've got a rhythm.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Now Strong is starring in the film The Apprentice, which came out in October and is now available to rent for streaming. The Apprentice refers to the young Donald Trump as he's trying to establish himself and his father's business as a real estate developer. The person who is mentoring him in how to become successful is Trump's lawyer, the infamous Roy Cohn, played by Jeremy Strong.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Well, why don't we listen to the real Roy Cohn's voice? This is from an interview with Tom Snyder on his late night show, Tomorrow.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Really? As broadcast in 1977. So here we go.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So what was it like playing somebody who you find, like, is despicable, too strong a word?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
One of the things you didn't do is use a prosthetic nose. Roy Cohn had a very distinctive nose. Yeah. And there's kind of like a ridge in the middle of it. And the ridge became discolored. And I think a lot of actors would have had some kind of prosthetic on their nose to duplicate Roy Cohn's nose. You did not do that. Was that your decision?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Strong is nominated for a Golden Globe for his performance. Roy Cohn was known for prosecuting and winning the federal government's case against Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. on charges of giving nuclear secrets to the Soviets. In a controversial decision, they were sentenced to death and executed in the electric chair in 1953.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Yeah. So, you know, the film is in part how Trump became so litigious, like suing so many people and getting sued a lot too. So the movie's in part about that. And To underscore how litigious he can be, he threatened to sue the film to prevent it from being distributed. His lawyers wrote a cease and desist order to try to prevent it from opening.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So there's been a lot of complicated behind-the-scenes goings-on in terms of finding a different distributor and more funding and dealing with this threatened lawsuit. So how involved were you in that part of the story and in even knowing what was going on?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Let's talk about Succession a little bit.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
Okay, great. Thank you. So Succession is the HBO series about a media mogul who owns a Fox News kind of conservative cable network. He owns theme parks and cruise ships. He's old, his health is fragile, and his four adult children are competing to see which of them will take their father's place.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
So you auditioned initially for Roman, the Kieran Culkin character, and then Adam McKay, who was an executive producer of Succession, after you didn't get the part of Roman, he asked you to audition for Kendall, which is the role you became famous for. And, you know, Kendall is this mix of, like, confident, sometimes confident. Overconfidence.
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
And insecurity, uncertainty, indecisiveness, sometimes decisiveness, but the decision is frequently not the right one. So there's this constant conflict going on within him. What did you relate to about that brew of contradictions within him?
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Jeremy Strong Sees Acting As An Escape From Self
In 1954, during the communist witch hunt period, Cohen was the chief counsel to Joseph McCarthy's Senate investigations into the communist influence in the U.S. Cohen and McCarthy were also leaders in the anti-gay movement that led to an executive order banning gay people from serving in government. But Cohn was a closeted gay man who died of AIDS.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. One night, when my guest Rich Benjamin's mother was staying over at his Brooklyn apartment, he awoke to her screaming, Please don't kill me! Please don't kill me! She was having a nightmare. Here's the backstory. Her father, Rich Benjamin's grandfather, was appointed president of Haiti by a temporary government in 1957.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
What did your mother, growing up in America after the age of 13, tell you about race in America and about colorism? And I ask about colorism in part because your grandfather, one of his goals was to help lead an opposition to the mulatto elite, and mulatto was the word used in Haiti, and So if you had whiteness in your background, you were more likely to be in the elite.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin, author of the new memoir, Talk to Me. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Your father was originally from Guinea in Africa. And while you were in high school, he got a job in Guinea, which he really wanted to take. He really wanted to return. And he was an economist. He took the job. Your mother went with him. And you're right. There were virtually like no schools or colleges in Guinea at the time. So you and your siblings stayed behind.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
And your grandmother moved in to take care of you. And you felt pretty abandoned, similarly to how your mother felt abandoned by her father. Can you talk about that period and what it was like to know that your mother was in another country while you were still in the U.S.?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Yeah, your mother ran UNICEF programs in several African countries.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
When you were a young man, you didn't want people to know that your mother was from Haiti. And there's a scene in your book early on where you're in a taxi with your then-boyfriend, and the cab driver detected a Caribbean accent and asked if you were from Haiti, and you said, no, I'm from New York. And he said, well, where are you originally from? And you said, New York.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
And he said, you have a Haitian accent, you have a Haitian face, but you didn't want to tell him you were Haitian. Why not?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Yeah, and the boat people were people trying to escape Haiti on like little makeshift boats heading toward the U.S.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
So you went to Wesleyan University, and there you joined the fraternity Delta Kappa Epsilon, which is, I think, the same fraternity that George W. Bush had been in? Yes, indeed. And this was during a period, which we're probably still in, of a lot of drinking. And were you out when you were in that fraternity?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Yeah, because fraternities are so much about big frat parties with lots of beer and more beer and even more beer. And it's all about meeting girls and hooking up with girls. So I'm trying to figure out what that experience was like for you, being gay and being in a fraternity like that.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
So you were hiding being gay and maybe also hiding being Haitian-American?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Were you still having to perform being somebody who you weren't?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
And everybody's trying out new personalities, trying to figure out who they are away from their parents if they're going to out-of-town college.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Yeah. So when you started going to gay bars, it was during the AIDS epidemic, which is such a difficult time to start your sexual life. You must have been afraid of getting AIDS at the same time you really wanted to have a sex life.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Well, we have to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin. He's the author of the new book, Talk to Me. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air. When you started going to gay bars, you also started using a lot of cocaine. Did you have an end-of-the-world feeling because of the AIDS epidemic, so party now?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
So you said your grandfather was a labor leader, but he was more than just a labor leader. He was very popular, very charismatic, and was able to organize mass protests.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
In that period when you were a young man and using a lot of cocaine, you got arrested because you were very high. You saw a Mercedes and go ahead, tell the story.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Then the police came and took you to the Manhattan detention center known as the Tombs. What was the cell like?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Did that experience change your life? Like, how long were you in jail? And did that experience change you in any way?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin. He's the author of the new book, Talk to Me. I want to ask you about an earlier book you wrote in 2009. It was called Searching for Whitetopia, An Improbable Journey into the Heart of White America. What did you consider whitetopia, a white version of utopia? And what was your goal in writing the book? What did you really want to learn?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
You were threading back and forth if it was 27,000 miles. Yeah.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
I know there were a lot of golf courses in the places that you visited and you played golf with a whole lot of people who you interviewed. What about guns?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
So what did you learn in terms of thoughts about diversity? Because right now there's an emphasis of cutting diversity, equity, and inclusion, DEI, throughout the federal government.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
But 19 days after taking office, he was overthrown by a military coup. Soldiers with submachine guns stormed into a cabinet meeting, took him away, and gave him a letter of resignation to sign. His wife was also kidnapped by soldiers. They were both ejected and sent to the U.S. Soldiers also came for the president's children, including Benjamin's mother, who was 13 at the time.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
So what was it like for you as a black man to be in the communities that you describe as white-topia?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Well, we have to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin. He's the author of the new book, Talk to Me. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air. So getting back to Haiti for a minute, after your grandfather was removed from the presidency by the military, and it was a coup that the U.S.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
had a hand in, the Eisenhower administration, When you look at what happened to Haiti afterward, when you look at President Duvalier, who was a brutal dictator, and when you look at the chaos now with gangs having taken over the capital, Port-au-Prince, do you wonder what Haiti might have been like if your grandfather had remained president?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Well, Rich Benjamin, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Rich Benjamin's new memoir is called Talk to Me, Lessons from a Family Forged by History.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
So what role did the Eisenhower administration play in the coup?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
If you'd like to catch up on fresh air interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Ann Applebaum about the Trump administration's move toward authoritarianism, or with epidemiologist Dr. Adam Ratner, author of the new book Booster Shots, The Urgent Lessons of Measles and the Uncertain Future of Children's Health, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of fresh air interviews.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash fresh air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Rebodenato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
After your grandfather was overthrown by the military coup, Duvalier was elected president. And he had what some people consider as a kind of reign of terror. He became a dictator. His police really cracked down on any kind of dissent. And he was president for how many years?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
So let's talk about your mother a little bit. So she was kidnapped by the soldiers and taken to barracks. She was raped there. How much did she talk to you about that? That night when she woke up screaming, don't kill me, did you already know the story that she was raped?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
So she told you eventually that when she told her father, the former president of Haiti, that she was raped by the soldiers, he didn't believe her. And that created an anger that never left her. And also, although he may have been a man of the people, he wasn't a family man. And she felt betrayed by that, too. She was asked to lead your grandfather's funeral procession in Haiti.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Yeah. So she was asked to lead his funeral procession and she had really mixed feelings about it because she was still angry with him. And I'm thinking, like, what a position to be in. Like, you're the daughter of a president who was beloved by workers who were challenging the elite. Right. And he's still celebrated by people who were alive then.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
The children were taken to barracks where his mother was raped. She never got over the terror of that day. Through her aunt's negotiations with the military government, she was able to get out of confinement and go to New York, where she was reunited with her parents. The family never really talked about the coup and the trauma.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
And you don't really want to do it, but you have to do it. Do you have any insights into how she felt when she was actually leading the funeral procession?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
When you went to Haiti after the 2010 earthquake, you went to a high school that was named after your grandfather. And I should add here that there was a period after he was overthrown when you weren't allowed to print his name.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
It wasn't until Benjamin went to Haiti to help after the 2010 earthquake that he decided to do some research to better understand his family and himself. As part of his research, he sued the U.S. State Department to get access to classified documents, which revealed the U.S. played a role in the coup. His new memoir is called Talk to Me, Lessons from a Family Forged by History.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
Tell us what your mother taught you about education and how it should make you uncomfortable.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
You became an activist. You worked for the think tank Timos for a while, a progressive think tank.
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
It's also about being black, the son of immigrants, and gay. He says he's enjoyed advantage and endured exclusion. Benjamin's first book, published in 2009, is called Searching for Whitetopia, An Improbable Journey to the Heart of White America. Rich Benjamin, welcome to Fresh Air. What did you learn about the Eisenhower administration's role in overthrowing your grandfather's presidency?
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A Family Forged By Haiti's Coup
I'm just curious. I don't want to get too caught up in this. But did you feel like you were being effective, that you were reaching a sliver of Fox's audience?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Because I think there are a lot of couples who separate who remain friends, but they don't want to be romantically involved anymore, and they want more freedom outside of the home. But I could see where there'd also be a lot of discomfort and tension and nervousness around each other. So if there's anything that you can offer about how that arrangement worked out? Yeah, I mean...
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Yet this flattens it into sociology and self-help. July's mind is far too unruly and interesting for that. John goes on to describe the book as perverse, unrepentant, sometimes dirty, and often laugh-out-loud funny.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
My guest is Miranda July. Her novel All Fours is on many best books of the year lists. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
All Four's story revolves around a 45-year-old woman, a slightly famous artist, writer, and performer, who decides to take a break from the routines she's stuck in and drive from her home in L.A. to New York. Her husband thinks it's a good idea and even suggests the best route for the drive.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
But about 30 minutes away from home, she stops at a gas station and feels this electric connection to a young man there, and he seems to feel it too. They end up having an affair in a motel room she rents and redecorates, and she spends the entire three weeks there. Their affair is both sexual and chaste. They're both married. He won't engage sexually, which would be disloyal to his wife.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Miranda July. Her films include You, Me, and Everyone We Know and Kajillionaire. Her new novel, All Fours, is on many 2024 best of lists. It's about a woman wanting to shake up her life. She's thinking of leaving her marriage and is having a very erotic affair.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
When she discovers she's entering perimenopause, she fears the best part of her life may be ending and she may lose her libido. She worries about getting older. There are parallels to Miranda July's life. I want to ask you about being the parent of a non-binary child, which is the position more and more parents seem to be in. How old is your child now? Twelve.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Yeah, so they use the pronoun they, them. What are some of the things you have to deal with as the parent of a non-binary child in terms of even questions like, do you want your child to take hormones? Do you want them to have a puberty block or do they want to have it? Is your voice going to take precedence over theirs or do you hope to be on the same page?
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Do you want to just follow what they want knowing that they're not an adult yet and that their mind could possibly change? There's so many questions I think that the parents of non-binary children have to deal with. And especially now in a world where that's being like demonized in politics.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
But they touch and dance, and the intentional eroticism becomes all-consuming for her. But then the three weeks are up. She returns home and has enormous trouble reentering her life as a wife and mother. Miranda July is also a filmmaker, actor, performance artist, and visual artist. Miranda July, welcome to Fresh Air. It's such a good book. I really enjoyed reading it.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Of course, yeah. Have you changed a lot having more space in your life on your own? Because I would imagine you co-parent with your former husband and that you don't have your child every day to take care of. And in some ways, that's a real loss. And in other ways, it gains you some independence and personal time.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And I wonder what that shift in time and that shift in the balance of independence versus having somebody dependent on you all the time has changed you for better or worse, has changed your life. Or for better and worse.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
My guest is Miranda July. Her latest novel is called All Fours. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And I'm looking forward to talking with you about it. So you were afraid to write this book and what people would think of you. Elaborate on what your biggest fears were.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Miranda July was a bit afraid of what people would think of her after publishing her second novel, All Fours. The book is partly about sexuality and has some very explicit sexual scenes. But that's true of many books.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
This is fresh air. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Miranda July. Her latest novel, All Fours, is on many best of the year book lists. So I want to talk about your formative years. You gravitated toward punk as a teenager. And what drew you to it? And what were your first experiences listening to punk rock or, you know, going to clubs?
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
You actually moved to Portland to be part of the Riot Grrrl scene.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
One of the jobs that you had early on while trying to support yourself, I guess, while you were doing your art, was working at a peep show. How and why did you get that job?
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And you're separated by glass, right? Yeah.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
What did you learn doing that about sexuality or about men, about yourself, about what it means to get really turned on looking at somebody who's basically on exhibit behind glass? Yeah.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Were you able to see the Peep Show as a form of performance art?
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
I have one more peep show question. So when men were staring at you and telling you their sexual fantasies, did you find it at all flattering or really creepy? Like what was your experience of that watching them? Like they're there to watch you, but you're watching them.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
You think you're looking at me, you're not.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
What were some of the conversations that you know about about your book that you found most interesting? Like what were some of the themes that you're glad your book provoked? You know, the themes in the conversations.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Miranda July's latest novel is called All Fours. This is fresh air.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
This is Fresh Air. Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead is going to review a newly released recording of a concert he attended in 1978 by pianist Sun Ra and his orchestra. Kevin says the colorful Philadelphia bandleader didn't always connect with traditional jazz audiences, but he'd found a second home doing so in Baltimore. ¦
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Well, one thing about getting older is I think Wikipedia has relieved the burden of that because for most people, their birth date is on the Wikipedia page. And so you can't really hide it even if you want to anymore. And I resent the fact that women especially are supposed to hide their age. Like, why can't we own it? Why can't we proclaim it?
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Why should we have to reinforce the idea that a woman getting older is a really terrible thing?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead reviewed Sun Ra, Lights on a Satellite, live at the Left Bank. Kevin's latest book is Play the Way You Feel, The Essential Guide to Jazz Stories on Film. If you'd like to catch up on fresh air interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Billie Eilish and Phineas, or with Ronnie Chang of The Daily Show and the series Interior Chinatown,
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
or about TikTok and its uncertain future, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash freshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. I'm Tariq Rose.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Her larger fear was the theme of a woman reaching midlife and entering perimenopause, the time in a woman's life when she's transitioning into menopause and is experiencing some of the many symptoms associated with that time of life. For her main character, it's the fear of losing her libido, dealing with mysterious moods and anxiety, and the thought of being seen as an old woman.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
There's a line in your book where you're buying something from an older woman. And you think about how you sometimes really hate old women. Well, it's not – yeah.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
So the character, this is where the character has gone to the hotel. She's felt this like erotic charge from this younger man. She's 45. He's 31. Who she met at, who she looked at at a gas station and he looked back at her. And then they met briefly in a diner.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
So she's unpacking her suitcase at this motel and the reading is about what she's thinking as she's unpacking her clothes and which one she's going to leave in the suitcase and which one she's going to actually unpack and wear.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Did you share a similar almost fear of older women or a dislike of them that your character has?
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
But the book has gotten the opposite reaction she feared. It's on many of this year's 10 best lists, including the New York Times, in which it was described as this year's literary conversation piece, and in The New Yorker, where it was described as a study of crisis, the crisis of being how middle age changes sex, marriage, and ambition.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Your character is experiencing things differently. and fears that relate to perimenopause. But some of the things she's experiencing, she doesn't know relate to perimenopause until she actually goes to her gynecologist. Was it that way for you that you had symptoms of perimenopause that you were attributing to other things?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
So one of the things the book is about is the feeling that you need to change your life, but not knowing how to do it and knowing that there will be consequences and rewards if you do. And part of the consequences will be for the other people in your life. If you're leaving a marriage, if you're breaking up a home in a way that will affect your young child, um,
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And I know you've experienced similar things, and this might be too personal, but was there a lot you had to weigh before changing your life, knowing that it might be the right thing for you, but there would also be consequences that everyone in your family would be facing, including you, because I'm sure there'd be a downside as well.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
July's moving, very funny book is at once buoyant about the possibilities of starting over and clear-eyed about its costs. When our critic John Powers reviewed it, he said, I gasped in surprise at All Fours, Miranda July's hilariously unpredictable novel. All Fours is sometimes described as a book about perimenopause, the transitional stage before menopause.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
So this may be too personal, but please don't answer it if it is. You and your former husband, is that the right way to describe it, lived together for a while with your child, but more as friends than as a married couple. How did that work? I think a lot of people would be curious about that.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Your plays have been performed in South Africa and in America. I was thinking that American audiences might find it easier to give themselves over to your plays in that the kind of racism that is addressed in your plays is the kind of racism that exists in South Africa. And what I'm saying here is that I think American racism is a more covert term.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
When I spoke with Fugard in 1986, I asked him why he remained in South Africa, where he lived under the apartheid system he opposed.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
kind of racism than the apartheid kind and because it's happening over there and we are not directly implicated in it, it's easier to perhaps not internalize some of the statements that you're making within your place.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Is there a time that you have in your mind when you think you would actually leave South Africa, if things reached a certain point?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
My interview with Ethel Fugard was recorded in 1986. He died Saturday at age 92. After we take a short break, we'll listen back to an interview with soul singer Jerry Butler, who died last month. And we'll remember jazz drummer Roy Haynes. Today is the centennial of his birth. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
The great soul singer Jerry Butler died last month at the age of 85. We're going to remember him by listening back to our interview from 2000. He first recorded with the group The Impressions, which he co-founded with his friend Curtis Mayfield. Butler sang lead on The Impressions' 1958 hit For Your Precious Love, which he also co-wrote.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
After leaving the group, Butler went solo and had the hits He Will Break Your Heart, Let It Be Me, Make It Easy on Yourself, I Stand Accused, What's the Use of Breaking Up? and Only the Strong Survive, which is the title of his memoir, which had just been published when we spoke. The Philadelphia radio DJ Georgie Woods nicknamed Butler the Iceman because his style and stage presence were so cool.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Butler was born in rural Mississippi in 1939. Three years later, he moved with his family to Chicago, where he continued to live. He became politically active in the city, serving on the Cook County Board of Commissioners from 1985 to 2008. When we spoke, he was serving his fourth term. We started with his 1969 hit, Only the Strong Survive. He co-wrote the song with Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Jerry Butler, welcome to Fresh Air.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Tell us the story behind this song.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
What would you say is the importance of this song in your career?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Do you feel constrained there at all by limitations of what will be allowed to be performed on stage?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Now, you first sang gospel music. You were part of a group called the Northern Jubilee Singers, and Curtis Mayfield was in that group, too. And, of course, you also sang together in The Impressions. How did you first meet?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
What about Curtis Mayfield? His couldn't have. He was only nine. How did he sound?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Now, did you and Curtis Mayfield leave gospel music for Rhythm and Blues at about the same time?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
What's an example of a hope to die love song?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Well, I think it's time to hear your first hit, For Your Precious Love, which was recorded in 1958 when you were with the Impressions. And you say that the lyric was originally a poem that you wrote when you were in high school?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Was it changed at all for the lyric, or is it exactly the same?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Okay, this is 1958, Jerry Butler and the Impressions.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
My guest is soul singer Jerry Butler. That's his 1958 hit with the Impressions, For Your Precious Love. Now, let's talk about how you recorded that song. You had been with a group that was, I think, called The Roosters?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Right. So who changed the name to The Impressions?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
We're listening back to the interview I recorded with Jerry Butler in 2000. He died last month at age 85. We'll be right back with more of the interview after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Were there any squabbles about who would get to sing lead on your first recordings?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Do you ever feel that if your work is not censored, then you're not doing your job?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Did that have to do with your leaving?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Let's hear what I think was the first hit you had when you went solo, He Will Break Your Heart.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
And how did this become the song that you made?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Okay. Recruited in 1960, this is Jerry Butler with Curtis Mayfield. It's been so much fun to talk with you. I want to thank you so much.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
My interview with Jerry Butler was recorded in 2000. He died last month. He was 85. Jazz drummer Roy Haynes, who played with jazz luminaries from Lester Young and Charlie Parker to Gary Burton and Pat Metheny, was born 100 years ago today. Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead will have an appreciation after a break. This is Fresh Air. Today is the centennial of the birth of jazz drummer Roy Haynes.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
He almost made it to the occasion. He died in November at age 99. Haynes was one of the most in-demand drummers in jazz, working with Lester Young, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Stan Getz, and Sarah Vaughan, and many others, before he turned 30, and later with Gary Burton, Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, and others.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead says Haynes was a powerhouse who liked to prod his fellow players.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. As a playwright, actor, and director, Athol Fugard defied South Africa's apartheid system, and the government punished him for it. He died Saturday at the age of 92. We're going to listen back to the interview we recorded in 1986, eight years before the end of apartheid.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
What do you think is the power of theater or art in general to help topple the apartheid system? Do you think of art in those terms? Do you think of art as having an overt political function?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Kevin Whitehead is our jazz historian and author of the book Play the Way You Feel, The Essential Guide to Jazz Stories on Film. Roy Haynes Centennial is being marked today with a jazz memorial and centennial celebration at St. Peter's Church in New York City.
Fresh Air
Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
If you'd like to catch up on Fresh Air interviews you missed, like this week's interview with comic and actor Bill Burr, or with journalist David Enrich, whose book Murder the Truth is about how freedom of the press is being threatened by tech billionaires, corporations, and political figures, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
You've had collaborative relationships with many black actors, and I'm sure that there are many obstacles in having that kind of relationship in a separatist country. Perhaps one of the first relationships you had like that was with Zakes Mokai in The Blood Knot. Were there any obstacles in actually getting together and working together on the play and then afterwards on performing it?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
You also in the 1960s were a co-founder of a group called the Serpent Theater, which was also integrated. What were some of the difficulties then of rehearsing together? Were you allowed into the black townships? Were they allowed into the white communities?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Fugard was a white South African who wrote about the emotional and psychological consequences of his country's white supremacist system. When Fugard co-starred in his 1961 play The Blood Knot with black actor Zakes Mukai, they became the first black and white actors in South African history to share a stage.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Your play Master Harold and the Boys is based in part on the relationship you had when you were young with a black man who was a waiter I think at a cafe that your mother ran and There's an incident in the play that I think is based on an incident in your life where the young white boy, who's the son of the mother who owns the cafe, who's really very close with the waiter, spits in his face.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
From what I understand, it was very difficult for you to write that part in. Can I ask about the personal significance that that event had for you
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Soon after, Fugard was approached by a group of black actors seeking his help to start a company. Together, they formed the Serpent Players. The company was frequently harassed by the authorities. A few members were imprisoned. Fugard's reputation for defiance spread, and in 1967, the government revoked his passport. It was restored four years later.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Is there a moment when you can point to and say, this is when I realized that the system of apartheid was evil, was unjust?
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
Fugard wrote more than 30 plays, including Master Harold and the Boys and Bozeman and Lena. He co-wrote the plays Sizwe Banzwe is Dead and The Island with the black South African actors John Connie and Winston and Shana. His plays have been staged in the US. Six of his plays were produced on Broadway. He won a Tony Award for Lifetime Achievement in 2011.
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Remembering The South African Playwright Who Defied Apartheid
I know one thing that drives a lot of white people who live in South Africa crazy is that every time you sit on a bench or board a bus or enter into certain stores, you are in a way making a complicit act with apartheid, if that is a segregated bench or bus or store. And I wonder how you reconcile that now.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Well, no, because the Me Too movement for women is about sexual assault.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Well, I don't want to get into an argument about this, so I'll just say— Well, what's funny is this is how I discuss things. I will just say that—what was the other thing that you just said? I just lost it for a second trying to—
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
But people were protecting him. You know, people were protecting the musicians, the.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
No, I mean, I think cancel culture probably went too far. I think it's an issue by issue thing.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
And there's a real kind of herd mentality around some of it. I think that's really up for a nuanced discussion about what deserves cancellation and what's just like... Nuanced discussion is not one of my strong points. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to use this opportunity to take a short break, and then we'll be right back.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Burr, and he has a new comedy special. It begins streaming on Hulu March 14th. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
So you're in Glengarry Glen Ross now. Fantastic cast. It's you, Michael McKean, Bob Odenkirk, Kieran Culkin, David Mamet, especially in his earlier work like Glengarry Glen Ross. These are like verbal fireworks. And there's so much anger and resentment and subterfuge that goes on in his writing. Really dark characters.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
To sell them real estate. That isn't nearly what they describe it as being.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Yeah. Well, you talk about that one of your specials, like you're driving and somebody cuts you off and you're really furious at them and you're hollering at each other. And then you think like, yeah, I've done that, too.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
You've never been on Broadway before. Was this an ambition? Were you one of the guys who really wanted to be on Broadway? Or were you just surprised to be there?
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Okay, that's Bill Burr from his new comedy special. He's also one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of the David Mamet play, Glengarry Glen Ross. The revival has an incredible cast, Burr, Kieran Culkin, Bob Odenkirk, and Michael McKean. Burr co-starred in the film King of Staten Island, which was loosely based on the life of the film's star, Pete Davidson.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
You know, we've been talking about, you know, anger and also channeling that into your work as an actor and a comic. I watched a clip of you on The Moth. The Moth is a storytelling podcast that is also a public radio program. And you're so different in that. You're sitting on a stool, not kind of pacing back and forth on the stage. You hadn't shaved your head yet, so you have red hair.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
But you're sitting on a stool telling a story that has a few laughs in it.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Just getting back to the moth. So you're sitting there. You're talking pretty quietly. It's a... quiet voice. You sound kind of introspective. And it looks on this like blurry video that you're avoiding making contact with the audience.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
So how did you get from there to your onstage persona of being kind of loud, frequently angry?
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Bercow created, co-wrote, and starred in the animated series F is for Family. Although he's known for comedy that's often contrarian and angry, the new comedy special, Drop Dead Years, opens like this.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Your father, apparently, from what I've heard you say, had real rage problems, real anger problems.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
It's very funny when you say it and you're literally right.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
I think you're really good at transforming your real anger and your history of real anger and your history of being the target of real anger into comedy. And an example of that I want to play is from the animated series that you starred in and co-wrote F is for Family. And in the opening episode, the family's sitting around the dinner table, and the phone rings.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
And the father really goes off on it, and you play the father. So let's hear that scene, and then we'll talk. I'm not answering that.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
And at that point, he's put down the phone so hard that he tears the phone from the wall.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Bill Burr, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
It must be great to see yourself through their eyes. They probably have a different picture of you than you think other people have. They don't have this vision of you as like the angry guy on stage.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Bill Burr was recently described by New York Times comedy columnist Jason Zinnemann as one of the greatest living stand-up comics. In Rolling Stone, Burr was described as the undisputed heavyweight champ of rage-fueled humor. Bill Burr has a new comedy special on Hulu called Drop Dead Years. It starts streaming Friday, March 14th. Here's an excerpt.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Good. It seems unusual for you to start on a note of vulnerability like you do in this new special. Does this mark a change in your public or private self?
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
So you're a father of two. And one of your series that I think you co-created, Old Dads, right? Yeah.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Well, one of the things in Old Dads is that the older fathers, which includes you, don't relate to some of the younger parents and how they're parenting their kids. Did you find that with yourself, you know, being a father?
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
You do a podcast where you talk like an hour straight. I know I do. Or more, often more. Your mind probably is always on overdrive.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Oh, really? Well, those are really interesting insights and you got them from doing mushrooms.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
I feel a responsibility to say here that it's recommended that if you do mushrooms, you do it in a therapeutic setting. So if things do go bad, you have somebody to guide you through it, because you really don't know what to expect. You might want help.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
So I'm tempted to do something and I don't know whether I should do it or not. Do it. Okay. You'll probably be sorry you said that.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Okay, so here's what I'd like to do. There's a bit that you do and I found myself both laughing and stopping laughing and then figuring out like, I'm not sure which way to take this. And so what I'd like to do is- That's amazing.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Good, so let's play it, and then we can talk about it, if that's okay with you.
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Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Okay, great. So this is a part, you've just talked about men and all of, like, a lot of men's flaws. Then you say, you know, you're going to talk about women.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Okay. So that's my guest, Bill Burr. Okay. So here's what I want to talk with you about. I want to talk to you about perspective. Because when I listen to that, I think that is really funny if you're coming from the perspective of, of course, men have to be involved because the whole point of feminism is
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
is becoming equal and getting men who perceive women as less than or as incompetent or stupid or any of the patronizing things or insulting things, misogynist things that men may think. Men have to change in order for feminism to succeed, in order for women to get the equality.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Because women were already subservient. Men already controlled everything. It's historically been that way. But let me finish my point. So I think it's really funny if your perspective is like, this is funny because obviously men have to change in order for feminism to succeed. But it's not so funny to me if your perspective is, What do they want from us men? Why don't they just leave?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
This is their issue. Why don't they just leave us alone? And that to me isn't funny because that would mean like you don't get it. You don't get that men who still think that women are lesser than or secondary or not smart enough, not capable enough. not deserving of equality. If you're coming from that perspective, it's not funny. In what world would I be coming from that perspective?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
I'm just going to finish my sentence. If you're coming from that perspective, it's not funny because it means you're clueless, that you don't get it, in which case it's not so funny. But if you do get it, it's really funny because you're coming from the perspective of getting it and mocking the men who don't. So your turn.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
And women have gone through exactly the same thing if they're not beautiful or young enough.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
But that's the thing. When I was growing up, the only jobs for women were nurses, teachers, cashiers, secretaries. There was very little else you could do. Well, okay, sex worker, yeah. There's very little else you could do. The doors are basically shut.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Yeah. So just getting back to that joke one more time. It's the kind of open-ended joke that you can see from either perspective.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
I knew you wouldn't like this. I'm enjoying the hell out of this.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
A lot of women make more money than their husbands do. Wait, is that true? If that's true, then what is the problem?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
But it depends. I'm sorry. Let's just get back to the joke.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Okay, because historically women didn't, but now a lot of women do because women are allowed to be lawyers. Women are allowed to do all kinds of jobs that pay that they weren't allowed to do before, including being doctors.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Totally agree. So I tried to establish that you could see that joke from two different perspectives, one of which I found really funny and the other which I found clueless. Do you want to leave it ambiguous like that so that bros in the audience can see it one way?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
No, but it's interesting to me that you see yourself coming from both of those perspectives and that you have both of those perspectives.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
I just want to say in case it's not clear, I think you're hilarious. There's some jokes where I stand back and I go, I'm not sure how to take that. But I think you're a great comic.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
I love your voice. I love your delivery. I love your spontaneity. I'm waiting for having said that. No, no. However. However? No, no. The only however is sometimes I just don't know how to take the jokes and I can interpret it one of two ways.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
At the start of your new special, you said that you started doing stand-up because it was the easiest way of walking into a room and making people like you.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
So what kind of hurt? Are you talking about insults or being ignored, bullied, mocked?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
He's talking about driving on the freeway in L.A. where he lives when he's caught in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Meanwhile, there's hardly any cars in the HOV lane, the high-occupancy vehicle lane, which is reserved for vehicles with at least two people. He's tempted to get into that lane even though there's no one else in his car, but he knows the HOV rules are strictly enforced.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
I want to back up a little because when you were describing your anger and trying to change, you said you realized you'd been abusive. Do you mean verbally or physically?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
Well, that's one of the things you've talked about is that you had real road rage sometimes.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
And who's the they? Besides the people who eat almonds?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]
I'm going to stop you. You just blamed all of this on white women. Yes. Where are the men? Where are the men in what you're saying?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
When you were president, did you ever find that your political position and your religious views ever came into conflict?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Jimmy Carter, recorded in 2005. Our remembrance of Jimmy Carter will continue with more of that conversation and another interview I recorded with him and his daughter Amy when she was 25 about family life in the White House after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
We're remembering Jimmy Carter with excerpts of interviews I recorded with him over the years. Let's get back to the one we recorded in 2005, 30 years after Carter's successful campaign for the presidency. George W. Bush was president at the time. You mentioned that when you publicly stated that you were born again when you were running for president, that it worked against you.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
People misunderstood what you meant by that. And you thought it hurt you in the election. It's funny because, you know, President Bush is born again. He discussed that when he was running for office. And, you know, it seemed to help him very much in his campaign. So... Would you reflect a little bit about what's changed?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Let me ask you about evolution, since intelligent design is before the courts now. How do you deal with the fact that science tells us different things than the Bible does about the creation of men and women and the earth?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Jimmy Carter recorded in 2005 after he'd written his book Endangered Values, America's Moral Crisis. Coming up, family life in the White House. We'll listen to an excerpt of an interview I did with Carter and his daughter Amy when she was 25. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. On this day of Jimmy Carter's funeral, which has also been declared a national day of mourning, we listen back to more excerpts of the interviews I recorded with him over the years. At 100 years old, Carter was the oldest living former president in American history. with one of the longest and most productive public lives after leaving the White House.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
This is Fresh Air. We're remembering Jimmy Carter by listening back to excerpts of interviews I recorded with him after he left the White House. In 1995, I spoke with Carter and his daughter Amy. She was nine when her father was elected president. She was 25 at the time of this interview. She and her father had just finished a children's book, Jimmy did the writing, and Amy did the illustrations.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Their book, The Little Baby Snooglefleeger, was based on stories Carter used to tell his children. It was about a lonely boy who is befriended by an intimidating underwater creature known as a snooglefleeger.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
I'd like you to read a poem called Of My Father's Cancer and His Dreams. And you're welcome to introduce this, if you'd like, or to just begin the poem. But I think it would be nice for you to tell us first when you wrote it.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Jimmy Carter, do you think you invented an undersea creature in part because you were stationed on a submarine in your military days?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Amy Carter, your father describes the little baby snuggle fleas as an ugly creature. How did you decide to draw it? The colors you used, the shape you gave it, where did you get your visual impression from? How did you come up with it?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
I should say for our listeners who are hearing unusual sounds in the background that that is not the snoogle fleeger. That's actually the sounds of construction near the NPR studio in New York. What was it like for the two of you to collaborate on something? You know, sometimes it's very hard for family members to work together, particularly to learn to drive from each other.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
But what was it like to work on a book together? I mean, Jimmy Carter, you're the father and therefore are used to being in control or wanting to have control, but that's not the attitude to have when you're collaborating with somebody.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Amy, I know that there was a period when you were at Brown University when you engaged in a student protest against CIA recruiting on campus. That ended up in a big court case. You spent a lot of time away from your actual schoolwork and ended up, I believe, being expelled. I'm wondering if that was a turning point in you deciding what you wanted to do.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
I mean, what you wanted to study and what you wanted to be. I mean, were you pursuing art then or... Did that kind of little crisis get you onto a different and ultimately maybe more satisfying course?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Amy, it sounds like you're a mix of very shy and defiant. I think that's exactly right.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
So, Jimmy Carter, you were governor and president. Was there much time when you were in those positions to actually tell stories to Amy?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
How does a first family put aside time as family time? What family time did you actually have together in the White House?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Amy, how much family time did you actually have in the White House years?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
I completely identify. I completely identify. I used to bring a book with me to a lot of family events and be roundly chastised for it. You know, I, I used to be really bored, to be honest, with a lot of adult events when I was a kid. It was like, well, they're talking about adult things and, you know, I don't care. I'd rather watch TV.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
But Amy, when you were surrounded by adult events, it was, you know, like presidents from other countries and, you know, probably, uh, you know, famous performers who are doing White House performances and things like that. Were you interested in, in these very, uh, famous adults or were they uninteresting to you also?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Jimmy Carter and his daughter Amy, recorded in 1995, will conclude our tribute to him after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
When I interviewed Jimmy Carter in December 2001 about his memoir Christmas in Plains, he grew up in Plains, Georgia, it was at the beginning of a somber holiday season when the country was still mourning the losses of the September 11th attacks. I would like to wish you a Merry Christmas, but it strikes me as not exactly as a merry period. And I'm wondering what language you're using here.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
When you're sending your best sentiments about Christmas this year, are you using the word merry?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Boy, I bet you get a lot of frequent flyer miles through your work with the Carter Center.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Do you fly first class with the miles most of the time?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Jimmy Carter, recorded in 2001. If you missed the first program in our two-part series, Remembering Carter, you can listen to it on our podcast or stream it at freshair.npr.org. We're grateful to have had him on our show several times and to be able to reflect on his years of service to our country and his commitment to working for affordable housing, democracy, and peace around the world.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Rest in peace. Today's edition was produced by our executive producer, Danny Miller, and our director, Roberto Schorach. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Reboldonato, Sam Brugger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Some of these earlier interviews were produced by Amy Sallet. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Have you read that poem? Did you read that poem to your family before publishing it?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
In your dedications in this book, you dedicate the book in part to your father who, let me turn to the page actually so I can quote it. I write to my father, Earl, who labored all his life but also loved the good times. His innate goodness curbed by the southern mores he observed. A man who relished discipline, who reached out to his son with love, always tempered with restraint.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
What were the southern mores he observed that you were referring to there?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Those post-presidency years were devoted to public service. He and his wife Rosalyn teamed up with Habitat for Humanity, building or repairing thousands of homes in the U.S. and other countries around the world, including Mexico, South Africa, Haiti, Vietnam, India, and the Philippines.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Did you ever try to change him on that? Do you think it's possible for a son to change a father?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Okay, it's time for another poem. Okay. I have another request.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
And it's really a poem about poetry and writing poetry and learning to write poetry.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Do you know, by the way, let me stop you here, that his daughter, Lucinda Williams, is a wonderful singer and songwriter? She is great. Yeah, yeah. I was wondering if you liked her music.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
He flew around the world to war zones to mediate violent conflicts and monitor elections in fledgling democracies. And Carter wrote several memoirs about his presidency, his childhood, his deep religious faith, his reflections on getting older, and life after leaving office. That gave me the opportunity to interview him several times.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
I like this poem a lot, and I like how you describe in the poem you trying to write about great themes, war and peace and troubling visions, and then you turn to specific details and very specific things that happened to you. Tell me more about how you learned to do that in your poems.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
When you're president of the United States, you're the most, you know, important person in the country and you have the most power and so on. And then when, you know, fairly late in life, you start writing poetry more seriously than you ever wrote it before. I mean, you're getting started, you know, pretty late with that and everything.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
There might be this feeling, well, how could I possibly be any good? And as former president, I'm only allowed to do things that I can really excel in, you Did you ever go through a crisis about that and think, like, if you wrote poems, they'd better be the best poems? Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to measure up to your own standards.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
We'll start with a side of Jimmy Carter most Americans were unaware of when he was in the White House, his lifelong interest in and love of poetry. When we spoke in 1995, he'd just published a collection of his poems titled Always a Reckoning. Carter was the first former president to publish a book of poems.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
There's another poem I'm going to ask you to read called Difficult Times.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Jimmy Carter recorded in 1995, after the publication of his poetry collection, Always a Reckoning. In 2005, I spoke with him about his book, Endangered Values, America's Moral Crisis.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
Carter was the first American president to tell the public that he was born again, but he believed in the separation of church and state, and in this memoir, he focused on his concerns about the intertwining of politics and religion. You were the first president to say that you were born again. And you said that during the election when you were asked by a reporter.
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
What do you think the assumptions are that people make when they hear a former president is also a poet?
Fresh Air
Remembering Jimmy Carter (Part II)
After you proclaimed that you were born again, how did that change perceptions of you?
Fresh Air
Actor Simu Liu On Diving In The Dark
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Our guest today is actor Simu Liu. He's best known for his breakout role as Shang-Chi, Marvel's first Asian superhero, in the film Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. Now he stars with Woody Harrelson in the new film Last Breath. He spoke with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Boldenaro.
Fresh Air
Actor Simu Liu On Diving In The Dark
Simu Liu stars in the new film Last Breath. He spoke with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Boldenado. To find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash freshair. And this week we have a special exclusive for our newsletter subscribers. I just interviewed comic Bill Burr.
Fresh Air
Actor Simu Liu On Diving In The Dark
It was hilarious and a wild ride. Also, very hard to edit down to fit our broadcast. It's airing Monday, but we're offering an early listen of an extended version of that interview if you subscribe to our newsletter. To sign up, go to whyy.org. It'll come directly to your inbox Saturday morning. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Actor Simu Liu On Diving In The Dark
Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Roberta Chirac, Phyllis Myers, Anne Maribel Donato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Susan Yakundi directed today's show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So that's Jason Isbell from his new album, Foxes in the Snow. The song is called True Believer. You had asked me earlier, like, give me an example of a line where I sound critical of my ex or of an ex. So from the song we just heard, two separate lines, take your hand off my knee, take your foot off my neck. And then all your girlfriends say, I broke your bleeping heart and I don't like it.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
There's a letter on the nightstand. I don't think I'll ever read it. So that sounds, it sounds angry and you sing it angry. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
When you get to, I finally found a match. No, what's the next line? I'm trying to remember what the next line is.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
The second one... Take your hand off my knee and your foot off my neck. I love these songs, so I'm not criticizing you or the song. I'm just wondering what it's like to write songs that are critical of somebody you've been so close to, or at least seem to be about that.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Isbell. His new album is called Foxes in the Snow. We'll be back for more music and conversation after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
I want to ask you about your early life. You grew up in two churches. Your father was part of the Pentecostal church. Your grandfather was a preacher in the church. Your mother was with the Church of Christ. In the Pentecostal church when you were growing up, the church you went to had instruments. It sounds like there were maybe electrified instruments.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Okay, whereas in your mother's church, Church of Christ, instruments weren't allowed. It was just singing. So how could you be sure which was the true Christian approach when you were growing up with two opposite approaches to music? And you started playing music when you were six, when you got a mandolin. So you're really deeply involved with music.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Jason Isbell was described in Variety as the poet laureate of American rock. The quibble I have with that is that I'm not exactly sure I'd call it rock because there's country and folk music blended into many of his songs. Maybe the word Americana more suits him. He's won nine Americana Music Awards and six Grammys.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
There's a song from an earlier album. The song is called Why a Beretta. And I just want to quote a couple of the lines in it. You're right. And I don't know if this is autobiographical, but you're right. I was raised in the blood, and we were all saved before we even left home. And there's a line, I thank God you weren't brought up like me with all that shame and certainty.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So, you know, we often talk about the shame instilled in us by some religions. But I want you to talk about the certainty, the certainty that you were brought up with that you may be later rejected.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So you were taught to read the Bible literally. And I know that there was a period, and I don't know how old you were when you were doing this, you assigned yourself to read a passage from the Bible every night. What was that about? Why were you doing that?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So what made you think that that's what you needed to do to protect yourself?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Well, let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer, and guitarist Jason Isbell. His new album is called Foxes in the Snow. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
I want to play another track from the new album, and this is called Crimson and Clay. And I know you say you don't think about what you're going to do before you start writing a song. You just sit down and start writing it. Nevertheless, I'm going to ask you, is there anything you want to say to introduce the song and what inspired it?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
That was Bury Me from Jason Isbell's new album, Foxes in the Snow. Jason Isbell, welcome back to Fresh Air. I love this album. Congratulations on it. And I love this song. And I hope I don't mangle this, but I want to quote some of the lyric. This is the chorus. I ain't no cowboy, but I can ride. I ain't no outlaw, but I've been inside.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So I assume the wooden crosses were Christian crosses, but I was wondering, were they Klan crosses?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Well, I'll tell you what, why don't we hear the song, and then we can talk about it more after we hear it. So this is Crimson and Clay from Jason Isbell's new album, Foxes in the Snow.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
And there were bars of steel, boys, and there were bars to sing. And there were bars with swinging doors for all the time between. That's so great because you're talking about a jail with bars of steel, music, which has bars delineating each segment, you know, each like four notes or whatever. And bars with swinging doors, those are like old Western saloons that have those swinging doors.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
That was Crimson and Clay from my guest Jason Isbell's new solo album, Foxes in the Snow. You know, I love how the chorus keeps going like, guess the highway didn't kill me after all. Guess the city didn't kill me after all. And then guess a small town didn't suit me after all. I want to ask you about the highway. I guess the highway didn't kill me after all.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
And the next line is, well, I thought I was a goner in that trail of fire in Arkansas. If that is at all autobiographical, what happened?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Oh, because I know, didn't you live in a trailer for a while with your parents?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
... ... ... ... ... ... ... par par par par par par par par par PGGGGGGGGGGG B e e e e e e e e e e en en Bet,
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
And you were a drinker for years. So that's just, it's like, were you in jail too?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So you imagine you managed to incorporate some of your own story into this kind of cowboy song.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
His lyrics are as well written as a good poem or short story. They're often very personal, and that was especially true of his album Southeastern, which was released in 2013 and was his first album since Getting Sober. It's also true of his new album, Foxes in the Snow, on which he sounds especially naked because it's solo. His band, the 400 Unit, sits this one out. It's just Isbell and his guitar.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
I'm going to tell you my dilemma as a listener. And I'll preface this by saying I really love this album. So I first interviewed you in 2013 after Southeastern, your first album since Getting Sober. And at that time, you seemed so much in love with your wife, who I think you were already married, Amanda, who's also a songwriter and singer and violinist.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
And then I interviewed her in 2022 when she had an album out that included a couple of songs about fractures in the relationship. And your new album includes songs about factors in your relationship and ending a relationship, the pain of separating, the guilt of all of it, falling in love with someone new after. And listening, I sometimes think like, am I supposed to be taking sides here?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Because I like her songs. I like your songs. I can see both sides, you know. It's kind of like friends of yours are breaking up and you're supposed to choose who stays your friend afterwards, you know. And then I thought, like, no, that's not what I want to do.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
What I want to do is really enjoy both of your songs and appreciate each point of view and know that there's things in each of those points of view that I identify with. So I want to talk with you about writing these songs, but I also don't want to trespass on your privacy. So let's find a way to talk about it without getting too personal and making anyone uncomfortable.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
I love that idea. Start something new. So I guess the first thing I'm wondering is, if you write a song that is critical of the person who you've been married to and who's the mother of your daughter, do you feel guilty about it? Do you fear, is there a form of self-censorship that comes in because you don't want to hurt the other person? Or do you just write what you want to write?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
And I think this is something that particularly memoirists run into all the time.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Um, the song I'm about to play, for example, which is Gravel Weed. I was a gravel weed and I needed you to raise me. I'm sorry the day came when I felt I was raised. So it's kind of like you needed her to help you get through a period. And now, like, you don't need her anymore because you got through it.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
That's true. You say when I felt I was raised. Yes.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Some of the songs are about the blame, anger, and guilt when a relationship ends and about the exhilaration of falling in love again. His ex-wife, Amanda Shires, is also a songwriter and singer and violinist who performed with Isbel. She's written her own songs about the cracks in their relationship.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So let's play the song. And I'll say, I'm from Brooklyn, and I had to look up what a gravel weed was.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Well, I looked it up, and it looks like it grows really tall with flowers.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
In the part of the country where you're from, which is Alabama.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
All right. Let's hear the actual song written and performed by my guest Jason Isbell.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
That's Jason Isbell, Gravelweed, from his new album, which is called Foxes in the Snow. I want to quote another line from there, which is, But now I've lived to see my melodies betray me. I'm sorry the love songs all mean different things today.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
They were in a 2023 documentary together called Running With Our Eyes Closed, which is about the making of Isbel's 2020 album, Reunions, on which she played fiddle. The film also ended up being about the tension in the marriage, which was exacerbated during the COVID lockdown when they spent more time together than they ever had.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Can you talk about that a little bit, having written love songs about one person and then written, inspired, I think, by the same relationship songs about the relationship ending? How do those old love songs sound to you now? And do you still play them? Can you still play Cover Me Up, for instance?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
So many love songs and breakup songs have been written in every genre for centuries. How do you find new things to say, new words to use in a love song? I mean, Ira Gershwin even wrote a lyric, what can you say in a love song that's never been said before?
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
I want to play another track from your new album, and this is called True Believer. Do you want to say anything about writing this song before we hear it? This is another relationship song, another breaking up or broken up kind of song.
Fresh Air
Jason Isbell On Love, Heartbreak & Songwriting
Jason Isbell got his professional start with the band The Drive-By Truckers. Before we hear some of the relationship songs, let's start with a song that opens the album. I love this one. It's called Bury Me.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
We listened to excerpts from both interviews, starting with the more recent one recorded in 2019 when he'd just written his memoir titled Me. We talked about an early lesson John learned about handling stardom, his difficult childhood, how he became addicted to shopping and collecting, and his early musical influences. So the book has a very candid description of your life.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
And of course, you'd think he was gay. But, you know, he wasn't publicly out and. I think it was an era when it was like it was okay to be gay as long as you didn't mention it, as long as like no one had to hear it.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
You know, I was reading a 1973 Rolling Stone interview with you in which you said that your act is going to become a little more Liberace-ized. And I thought, wow, 1973, you were thinking about making your act more Liberace-ish.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
That was Elton John speaking with me in 2013 from Vegas during his million-dollar piano residency at Caesars Palace. I should note here, the piano really did cost one million dollars.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Before we get into some of the candid details that you write about in the book, you were in the band early in your career as the keyboard player in Long John Baldry's band. The band was called Bluesology. You tell this really funny story at the beginning of the book where he had just had a big hit.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Oh, I love Blossom Deary. We'll link to the full versions of both my 2013 and 2019 interviews with Elton John in our show notes. Our Fresh Air Plus bonus episodes are produced by Nick Anderson. Our engineer for this episode is Adam Staniszewski. I'm Terry Gross. Thanks for your support of our work here at Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
So now he was famous and, you know, young women were coming to the concert and kind of like really getting getting excited and screaming. And he says on mic, he says, why don't you say what he said?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
What did that teach you about stardom and how to handle it?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Of course, also with you, when you had young girls screaming at you and everything like you were gay, they didn't know that.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
That's right. That's right. So what was it like for you knowing you were gay, knowing they didn't realize you were gay and they were probably having all these like sexual fantasies about you? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
If you're already a Fresh Air Plus supporter, thank you so much for your ongoing support of our show and of NPR. But if you haven't signed up for Plus yet, we hope you will. You'll get weekly bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening for every episode of our podcast. And you'll be supporting the NPR shows you listen to, including Fresh Air. You can find out more at plus.npr.org. Now to the show.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Well, speaking of you and John Baldry being gay, when you decided you were going to marry a woman when you were in your early 20s, he said to you, John, you're gay. You can't marry her. And what was your reaction? Because I don't think you had acknowledged that to yourself yet.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Hi, it's Terry Gross here with a special bonus episode. It's the season of giving, and in that spirit, we thought we'd give all our podcast listeners something extra. Bonus episodes like this one, curated selections from our archive, are usually only available for our Fresh Air Plus supporters. Today, we're giving everyone a chance to hear it.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
It's remarkable that you could be like a rock musician and remain a virgin until you were 23. You might be the only person.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
You said you wanted to play music, but on the other hand, you write that early on, like when you were a sideman with John Baldry, that you thought what you really wanted to do was write songs. And you had auditioned for Liberty Records and they told you you were not ever going to be a pop star. You weren't pop star material.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
So did you think like you really weren't cut out to be a – like maybe they were right that you weren't cut out to be a performer, that your job should be behind the scenes or as a sideman? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
You said you had no self-esteem or low self-esteem. Were the costumes, the crazy clothing that you wore, the big glasses, all that, was that in part armor to cover up your low self-esteem? No. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Today we have two interviews I recorded with Elton John. After a career of more than 50 years of extravagance and extraordinary popularity, Elton John finished his farewell tour last year. But he performed at Lincoln Center in October of this year at the premiere of the documentary Elton John, Never Too Late. That documentary just started streaming on Disney+.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
It sounds like a lot of your childhood years weren't great. Your parents bickered all the time. Your mother remarried, and you liked your stepfather, but they bickered all the time. They got married when she was 16 and he was 17. You wonder if they were ever... if they ever should have been together in the first place.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
And your mother sounds like she was a very moody and frequently angry person who could hold a grudge. And you even describe how when you, you don't remember this, but I think it was an aunt who told you that when your mother was toilet training you, she'd beat you with a hairbrush until you were bloody and she'd beat you until you used the potty.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
So is that kind of typical of what your childhood was like?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Well, you became an obsessive shopper later in life and you collected everything.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Elton John's music spans genres and generations, from Rocketman to the soundtrack for Disney's animated feature The Lion King. In 2019, he executive produced a biopic of his own life called Rocketman. It was a box office hit and won John and his longtime collaborator, lyricist Bernie Taupin, the Academy Award for Best Original Song. I spoke with Elton John twice on Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
He was an amateur trumpet player, wasn't he?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Yeah, so why was he so set? I realize he didn't like rock and roll, but still he must have appreciated that you were such a talented musician. And you were studying classical music, too, at a conservatory.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Right. You could say that, but it also, let's face it, you've had an amazing life. He must have been so proud once you became famous and hopefully a little embarrassed that he tried so hard to discourage you from doing what you do.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
He didn't even try to capitalize on your fame? Like, that's my son.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Just curious, how much do you think of that as like the music, that it was rock and roll? And do you think any of that estrangement was because you were gay?
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
That was an excerpt of the interview I recorded with Elton John in 2019. Now we'll hear an excerpt from our 2013 conversation when he was in Vegas during his million-dollar piano residency at Caesar's Palace. In this excerpt, we talked about how he was influenced by the flamboyant pianist Liberace. We are recording this on Thursday, September 19th, right before you perform at the Emmy Awards.
Fresh Air
Someone Once Told Elton John He Would Never Be A Pop Star
Right. And our listeners will be hearing this after you've performed at the Emmy Awards. And you're doing a tribute to Liberace because the movie about him, Behind the Candelabra, is nominated for like 15 awards. And who knows how many, if any, it will have won by the time this was broadcast. But anyways, you know, he was you could say, oh, you'd look at Liberace.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, how life can change in a second. Hanif Qureshi's writing career got off to a remarkable start after briefly writing porn to make a living. His first screenplay, My Beautiful Laundrette, was nominated for an Oscar.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
That's the National Health Service.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
And in America as well, in the U.S., so many health care workers, including caregivers and aides, are recent immigrants or immigrants who've been here for a longer time. Oh, and so many people who take care of children are also immigrants. And yet there's this strong anti-immigrant feeling in America, as I'm sure you know, and I think in England as well, right?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
He describes being unrecognizable to himself, disconnected from his body, totally dependent on others. feeling helpless and humiliated, dealing with rage, envying other people who could do even basic things like scratch an itch. While spending too much time on his back staring at the ceiling, he reflected on earlier periods of his life. He shares those reflections in his book.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Your father emigrated to Britain in the late 1940s from Pakistan. Was he from a Muslim family? My understanding is he was relatively secular then.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Now, I thought he came from Pakistan.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Yeah, and partition happened in, was it 1947, when India basically divided into two with Pakistan becoming a new Muslim state.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
I see. So what was it like for him and then for you as being his son to be part of a new wave of immigrants? Is it fair to say England was largely white at the time?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
He spent a year in hospitals before he was able to return home with round-the-clock caregivers. He started writing the memoir just days after the accident by dictating to one of his sons. The book's narrative is occasionally interrupted by asides like, excuse me for a moment, I must have an enema now.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us and for sharing so much of your life.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Hanif Qureshi's new memoir is called Shattered. The streaming service BritBox has a new mystery series called Ludwig, starring David Mitchell as a very improbable yet effective investigator. Our TV critic David Bianculli says everything about this new series is charming, surprising, delightful, and refreshingly lighthearted. Here's his review.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Qureshi is the son of a British mother and a father who emigrated from Pakistan in the late 1940s. Hanif Qureshi, welcome back to Fresh Air. We first spoke in 1990 on Fresh Air, and you've been on two times since then, so welcome back. How are you now? How much movement do you have?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed Ludwig, which is now streaming on BritBox. Coming up, New York Times reporter Clay Risen talks about his new book, Red Scare, Blacklist, McCarthyism, and the Making of Modern America. And he describes the through line from that era to our own. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
In 2022, he fell, lost consciousness, and when he came to, he saw these objects he didn't recognize until he realized they were his hands.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Dave Davies has our next interview. Here's Dave.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
And physio is physical therapy.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
And your arm is strong enough to maneuver the controls of your motorized wheelchair.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
So I'm trying to figure out what happened. You were dizzy and then you woke up in a pool of blood.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Isabella's your partner, now wife?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
You write about how it initially felt to feel disconnected from your body, to see your hand and not feel connected to your hand. You write, I had become divorced from myself. Would it be okay to ask you to describe what that felt like, that sense of disconnection from your own body?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
We'll talk about life before and after the fall. Also, journalist Clay Risen takes us back to the anti-communist frenzy of the post-World War II era. Risen sees a through line running from that era to our own. And TV critic David Bianculli reviews the new mystery series Ludwig. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
You started writing your memoir just days after the accident by dictating it. Was writing especially important to you? I know you're a writer. I know you're very dedicated to writing. Your life has centered around writing and family. But was it helpful to distance yourself from kind of removing yourself from what was happening so you could look at what was happening, examine it and describe it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Your partner, Isabella, spent every day during visiting hours in the hospital with you. And you were hospitalized for about a year. And one time when she was brushing your teeth and you felt like a helpless baby and a tyrant, two really conflicting, maybe not so conflicting. Can you describe both of those feelings?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Yeah, I was thinking that as I said it, yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
I first became aware of Hanif Qureshi when the 1985 film My Beautiful Laundrette was released. He was nominated for an Oscar for his screenplay about a side of contemporary England that had rarely been explored on screen, Pakistani immigrants and their children. The film was a lively romantic comedy about gay love, family, racism, and punk rock.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
You have paid caregivers too, right?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
So they're paid to do this. That's their job. That's what they're trained to do. Do you feel guilty or embarrassed or humiliated when they're helping you?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
You once accused Isabella of going all Betty Davis on you, making it seem like she was the one being the tyrant. That's harsh. What brought that on?
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
It was directed by Stephen Frears and co-starred Daniel Day-Lewis as a young man in a relationship with the son of a Pakistani immigrant. Qureshi has since written other screenplays and novels, including The Buddha of Suburbia. His new memoir, called Shattered, begins in 2020 after a fall that injured his spinal cord, leaving him unable to move his arms or legs.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
If you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter, novelist, and playwright Hanif Qureshi. His new memoir is called Shattered. It's about the year he spent in hospitals after the fall that injured his spinal cord, leaving him unable to move his arms and legs. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
Your father was an immigrant, and I want to get into that a little bit later. But I just want to talk about the contrast between the racial ethnic aspects of the hospital in Italy where you had your accident and in London, the hospitals you eventually moved to because you're from London, your partner's from Italy. So in Italy, just about everybody who worked in the hospital was white.
Fresh Air
Best Of: A Writer Grapples With A Life-Changing Accident / The Post WWII 'Red Scare'
When you went to hospitals in London, all the therapists and nurses, they were all people of color, often immigrants. And you were the only person here who speaks standard Middle English was you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Well, in doing your research, you think that his mother was a sex worker and that his sister became a sex worker while his mother was in jail and she needed to earn some money. And as a kid that Armstrong helped out, worked for sex workers. And as a young man, he tried being.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Well, let's stop at that for a second because he spent a couple of years there after being arrested for possession of a gun. He was still a minor and for shooting it in the air. You think it was his mother's gun.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
So he was sent to the Colored Waif's home for boys for, what, a couple of years?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
And that's where he really got his start as an instrumentalist.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Well, let's hear another recording by Armstrong. I'm going to play Cornette Chop Suey. And you say about that, that it had the effect on instrumentalists that heebie-jeebies had on singers. So what is the importance of this song in terms of American music and in terms of Armstrong's career?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Who do you think was the first Black pop star? The answer is Louis Armstrong, according to one of the leading experts on Armstrong's life and music, my guest, Ricky Riccardi. He's just published his third book about Armstrong.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
So we're going to feature the stop time part in this recording. So you described the stop time part as thrilling, but I want you to describe what stop time is for people who don't know.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
This one is about Armstrong's early years, his rough childhood, his first recordings with other bands, and his famous first recordings with his own group, the Hot Five and Hot Seven.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
As Riccardi points out, those two early groups that Armstrong led, recorded between 1926 and 1928, over the course of 25 months, those recordings have been studied by up-and-coming musicians around the world because they provide the foundational language necessary to master the art of improvisation.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
That was Cornette Chopsuey, Louis Armstrong's Hot Five, recorded in 1926. Ricky Riccardi, it's just been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
For instrumental soloists and vocalists, Riccardi says Armstrong's innovations as both a trumpeter and vocalist set the entire soundtrack of the 20th century in motion. Riccardi has been the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum since 2009. It's the world's largest archive focusing on one musician.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
It gave Riccardi access to previously inaccessible documents, including 700 hours of Armstrong recordings of his thoughts and his music, the unedited and unsweetened version of his autobiography, and several chapters of an unpublished autobiography by his second wife, Lil Hardin, who was also the pianist in the Hot Five.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
She wrote or co-wrote several songs Armstrong recorded and was instrumental in landing his first recording date. Through writing about Armstrong, Riccardi's new book has a lot to say about segregation in New Orleans in the first part of the 20th century. The new book is called Stomp Off, Let's Go, which is the title of a song he recorded with another band led by Erskine Tate.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Ricky Riccardi, welcome to Fresh Air. What a joy it was to do the research for this, you know, being forced to listen again to Hot 5 and Hot 7 recordings. I love Armstrong's recordings, particularly like the ones through the 1940s. But you've written about all of them, like his whole life of recordings. So let's start with one of his great recordings. And this is West End Blues.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
And it's what you describe as one of the most iconic recordings of the 20th century. Tell us why.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
So why do you consider Armstrong the first black pop star?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Well, I want to play a song that made him a star, and that's Heebie Jeebies from 1926. It's a Hot Five recording. And it's considered the first example of scat, at least the first time it was called scat. So the story that's always told is that Armstrong started singing syllables, scat, instead of words because he dropped the sheet music and didn't remember the words.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
There's other versions of the story of how he started scatting. Which do you think is the most authentic story?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Okay, so let's listen to this 1926 recording of Louis Armstrong's Hot Five, his first scatting on record, and this is Hebe Jebe.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
They call it the heebie-jeebies dance.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
So that was Louis Armstrong and his Hot Five, recorded in 1926, heebie-jeebies, which is considered the first recorded scatting. It's interesting, when he played in New Orleans with King Oliver, and when he played in New York with Fletcher Henderson before starting his own bands, nobody wanted him to sing. And he became so famous and so loved for his singing. Why didn't they want him to sing?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
But you were one or the other?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
And he was singing before he was playing trumpet.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
You know, it's really remarkable and lucky for us that Armstrong was able to reach such iconic status and have such a long and productive career considering the circumstances he grew up in. Describe for us the neighborhood he grew up in in New Orleans and just remind us, too, of the year he was born.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas. Their latest album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, their brother and sister and songwriting and performing partners. And their new album is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. Phineas, what's it been like for you, especially early on when Billy was very young and you were still in your teens, your late teens?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
What was it like for you to have an audience dominated by teenage girls when you're a guy and you're also older? You're four or five years older than Billy.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billie, I've read that some girls or young women in the audience are throwing their bras onto the stage when you perform. How often does that happen? Do you have any idea how that started? I mean, that's like a classic. Well, it used to be panties that, you know, women would throw at male stars, you know.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
But on a related note, you often dress on videos and in performance on stage in really baggy clothes. And I was thinking, since you grew up with a lot of hip-hop, in a lot of hip-hop performances on stage and in videos, the dancers or the women in the videos are usually dressed, and especially earlier in the period when you were growing up, were dressed in really...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
tight and scanty kind of clothes. And the men are wearing like baggy hoodies and pants that are so baggy they're like falling down. And in that sense, did you take your cue from the men in hip hop in terms of dress as opposed to the women?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Phineas, you have a new album and I want to play a song from that. So I want to end with Family Feud because your family is so important to you both and the way you still operate as a family, because I think your parents are often touring with you, or at least they used to. So this is your song, Phineas. It's from your new album. Do you want to just say a couple of words about writing it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billy Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, thank you both so much. I really appreciate you coming on our show, and good luck with the rest of your tours.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
When it's just the two of us Sleep all day, I'll wake you up When it's just the two of us That's Family Feud from Phineas' new album for Cryin' Out Loud.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billie Eilish and Phineas' latest album together is called Hit Me Hard and Soft. My next guests are Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're partners in their marriage, as well as in their production company, and she makes regular appearances on his CBS show, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
During the COVID lockdown, when he hosted The Late Show from their home, she was his partner on the show, acting as a producer, sound engineer, and serving as an audience of one. I loved hearing her laughing at his jokes.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
They're typically not partners in the kitchen because they have different approaches to cooking, but now they have a new cookbook they co-authored with the great title, Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves. Shrimp are well represented in the book. because Stephen and Evie grew up in coastal South Carolina, where they still have a home.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Each recipe in the book is preceded by the story behind it and memories associated with it, so you actually learn about Stephen and Evie as you read the recipes. If you watch Colbert's show, you know he likes a good drink. The book has a whole chapter on drinks. Each episode of The Late Show opens with a monologue, typically satirizing a major event in the news.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Colbert doesn't pull his punches, especially when it comes to threats against democracy. Stephen, Evie, welcome to Fresh Air. It's such a pleasure to have you back on the show, Stephen, and to talk to you, Evie. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Oh, yeah. So first question to you, Stephen, how do you find time to cook? I can't believe that you find time. I don't have time to cook and I don't have half the job that you do. I make like omelets and heat roasted chicken. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. My guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell. As you probably know, they're siblings who write songs together. She sings on their albums, he produces and plays several instruments. They've been writing and recording together since she was 13 and he was 18.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
So, Evie, if Colbert is doing all this cooking but doesn't eat it, do you get to eat it? And do you do a lot of the cooking that you actually both eat?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
When I was growing up, my mother wasn't much of a cook, but she had two, like, fantastic dishes that she made. And I always look forward to those. But Monday nights, I'd almost be in tears because Mondays are bad enough when you're going to school.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
And she'd sometimes make broiled mackerel, which is a very bitter fish, especially when you're a kid. Yeah, and with, like, canned string beans. Oh, God. I know. Yeah. And lettuce with no dressing on it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
And I'd nearly be in tears. Later in the week, the food got better. So I'm wondering with each of you, the recipes in your book look absolutely sumptuous. But were there meals that you had that nearly brought you to tears when you were growing up? Oh, my God.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Considering the number of records they've broken in the last few years, they're more than popular. They're a phenomenon. Their album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?, was the second in Grammy history to win in the major categories Best Record, Album, Song, and New Artist, all in the same year. Phineas was the youngest person to receive a Grammy for Producer of the Year, non-classical.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Oh, no water? You're supposed to add a can of water.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Have you ever brought to tears anticipating something your mother was going to serve for dinner?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Seasonally, yeah, yeah. Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert have a new book called Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves. We'll be back after a short break. This is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, the sister and brother music partners who are a global phenomenon. We'll talk about working together, becoming famous in their teens. family, how her voice is changing, and how her signature baggy clothes were inspired by hip-hop.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview with Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're married. She makes regular appearances on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. They're partners in a production company. And now they've co-authored a new cookbook called Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Evie, are there things you had to sacrifice in your life when Stephen became famous and had this kind of consuming career and you had children?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billy was the youngest to win two Oscars, one for the theme for the Bond film No Time to Die, and another for What Was I Made For? from the Barbie movie. She collaborated on both songs with Phineas. They're continuing to break records. Billie was the youngest most listened to artist on Spotify this year.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Right. Then you're going to be home. I mean, you're not traveling to different locations.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
You're both from prominent families. Steve and your father died when you were 10. But before that, he'd been a director of a program at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. And he worked at the National Institutes of Health. And then the family moved to South Carolina. And he became the first vice president for academic affairs at the Medical University of South Carolina.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
That was in 1969. Yeah. And, Evie, your father was a prominent civil litigator. He served in the South Carolina House of Representatives for three terms. He was a Democrat. Because your fathers were prominent, were you expected to be model children? Huh.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Their latest album, Hit Me Hard and Soft, is now nominated for six Grammys, including all the major categories. Each of its tracks reached over 150 million streams on Spotify. Phineas also has an independent career as a producer and recording artist. His second solo album was recently released called For Crying Out Loud. Billie spent her teen years in front of her fans and the press.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Stephen, I've known about your deep faith and Catholicism since The Daily Show when you were kind of like the religion correspondent and you had a regular feature called This Week in God.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Yes. And, you know, you still talk about religion on The Late Show. And you satirize religion. You satirize Catholicism. You satirize the Pope. So I was really surprised when the Pope invited you to the Vatican as part of a larger event. And I don't remember what the event was, but Jim Gaffigan was there. I think David Sedaris was there.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
In 2019, music critic John Pirellis wrote in the New York Times, Eilish, age 17, has spent the last few years establishing herself as the negation of what a female teen pop star used to be. She doesn't play innocent or ingratiating or flirtatious or perky or cute. Instead, she's sullen, depressive, death-haunted, sly, analytical and confrontational, all without raising her voice.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Did you get to meet the Pope one-on-one?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Let's start with a song from Hit Me Hard and Soft. This is L'Amour de ma Vie, which is French for The Love of My Life.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
I'd like you each to leave us with your favorite comfort food.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
When you say carefree years, do you mean before your father died?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Yeah, taste is powerful. It's true.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
And also working, it sounds like working together so closely on the show worked out okay.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Well, I don't cook fancy things or ambitious things, but I enjoyed seeing the recipes. I enjoyed all the anecdotes. So I'm so glad we got to talk. It's just been such a pleasure and a joy to speak with you both. You too. Thank you so much. And to you. And to you. Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert have a new book called Does This Taste Funny? Recipes Our Family Loves.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terri Gross.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billy Eilish, Phineas O'Connell, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Billy, it strikes me you're singing more in a fuller voice. What's changing about your voice and how you choose to use it?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Did you want to do a whispery voice? Was that like a style choice or just like that's the way your voice was?
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Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Yeah. And Phineas, I assume you do the arrangements.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
I want to play a track because I like the instrumentation, the arrangement so much, and it's called The Diner. So Phineas, do you want to say a little bit about the instrumental track of this?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Later, Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee Colbert. They're married, she does bits with him on a CBS late-night show, and they've collaborated on a new cookbook.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
That was The Diner from the new Billie Eilish album, Hit Me Hard and Soft. And my guests are Billie Eilish and Phineas. Phineas, you're not on all of the current tour that Billie is on, and you've just released your second solo album. Does that have significant meaning in terms of the nature of your music partnership?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Billy, can you talk a little bit about when you were a teenager and you had all these like teenage teenagers, especially teenage girls as like such dedicated fans? What was it like for you to grow up? as a teenage star with so many teenage listeners, kind of idolizing you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
And then judging from what I've seen and read about you, you've been kind of insecure about yourself, not necessarily of your music, but for any insecurity you have, to have all these people turning you into an idol must have been, or maybe was, a little disorienting? Definitely.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Billie Eilish & Finneas / The Colbert Cookbook
Well, you were homeschooled, so it's not like you were hanging out in the schoolyard or in the classrooms with your peers.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, musician and documentary filmmaker Amir Questlove Thompson is back to talk about his newest documentary on Sly Stone and his band The Family Stone. It's called Sly Lives, The Burden of Black Genius. Also, Sebastian Stan talks about his Oscar-nominated portrayal of Donald Trump.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Yeah. And that has, like I said, the message of inclusivity and togetherness. But as someone in your documentary points out, that alienated a lot of black listeners in the sense that, you know, police were beating up black people, which, of course, you could say today as well. But it was a very it was and also like black power was was becoming a thing.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
formed a multiracial band with his brother, sister, and other musicians, and went on to record hits like Everyday People, Dance to the Music, Family Affair, and Stand. Their music influenced Prince, George Clinton and Funkadelic, The Ohio Players, Earth, Wind & Fire, and many hip-hop artists. The film also covers the problems that came along with fame and drugs that took Sly down.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
It's been so great to talk with you. And I just like all these projects you're doing. It's really remarkable. I really look forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire movie now.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Amir Questlove Thompson's new film is called Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius. It's streaming on Hulu. My next guest, Sebastian Stan, is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice. It begins in 1973 when Trump is 27, still working for his father's real estate development company and trying to make a name for himself.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
The company is being sued for discriminating against black people in its rental units. Trump convinces his father to hire Roy Cohn as their attorney. Cohn was infamous for being the chief counsel to Senator Joe McCarthy's Senate investigation into suspected communists.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Cohn becomes Trump's mentor, teaching him how to admit nothing and deny everything, go on the attack, and intimidate through the threat of lawsuits or through actually filing lawsuits. Cohn is played by Jeremy Strong, who's also nominated for an Oscar.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Last month, Stan won a Golden Globe for his starring role in A Different Man, as a man who's disfigured by a genetic condition that has grown fleshy tumors on his face. The tumors disappear after taking a new drug, and he emerges quite attractive, but remains alienated and withdrawn from other people.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
In the film I, Tonya, Sebastian Stan played Tonya Harding's boyfriend, who plots to disable her ice skating competitor Nancy Kerrigan. In the miniseries Pam and Tommy, he played Tommy Lee, Motley Crue's drummer and Pamela Anderson's husband. A lot of Stan's fans know him from the Marvel Cinematic Universe as Bucky Barnes, a recurring character in the Captain America films.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Let's start with a scene from The Apprentice. Trump is planning to build Trump Tower and is trying to convince New York City Mayor Ed Koch that it will be so extraordinary, Koch should give him tax breaks. It will be so good for New York. Roy Cohn is also in the room. You'll hear him jumping into the conversation.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Questlove is the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. If you feel as if you just heard him on our show, you did when we talked about his other new documentary focused on Saturday Night Live's music guests and music sketches over the past 50 years. That one's called Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Sebastian Stan, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I think you're great.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So after choosing that clip, first of all, I should say some listeners were probably thinking he doesn't sound like Trump. What would you say to that?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
You made the film while Biden was president in between Trump's two terms. What's it like watching his second term after having played him?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So let's talk about your slide documentary. I really love this film. I want to start with a song, and it's their first big hit. It's Dance to the Music. It's so catchy, and I'd like you to point out what makes this song special in its moment, which was 1967 or 8?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Playing him, I'm sure you had to be him and see things from his point of view, which requires you, the actor, to have empathy for Trump, the character that you're portraying.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his portrayal of Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. I want to move on to another new film of yours, which has been playing on HBO lately, and I assume on Max. And that's A Different Man, for which you won a Golden Globe in January.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
And in this film, you're afflicted with neurofibromatosis, which is a genetic disease. That creates fleshy tumors and for you, fleshy tumors on the face. So you're kind of treated a bit like an outcast because people stare at you. They might move away. The character who you're attracted to, who seems to be very fond of you, just recoils when you try to touch her.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So then you're part of a new drug experimental trial, and the drug cures the condition. The tumors kind of fall away, and you're very attractive underneath. You have a beautiful face. It's your face. It's Sebastian Stan's face. but your character doesn't change. You're alienated, you're isolated, and that's not going to change.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Okay. So what makes this song so special in its moment?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
I'm wondering how much this film made you think about looks and how looks determine how people are treated in this world, which is something a lot of us think about all the time.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Tell me about what you experienced doing that.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
You grew up in Romania, and when you were growing up, I think you lived there till, what, the age of eight or nine?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Yeah, so you were very young during the end of communism in Romania when the dictator Nicolae Ceausescu was overthrown. He was the head of the Communist Party there. There were protests. There were violent confrontations between the protesters and police. In 1989, as Ceausescu and his wife tried to escape, they were captured. He stood trial, found guilty, and was executed there.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
How aware were you as a child of what was happening in the country you were living in?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So your father was able to get out of Romania before the communist government fell. And I know he helped other people get out as well. Was he still married to your mother at the time?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Were you ever able to talk to him about this?
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Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Were you surprised to hear some of the things he told you about his past?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
When you came here, you had already lived in Romania. You had to learn German from scratch when you and your mother moved to Vienna. And I think, how old were you when you came to the U.S.?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Okay, so you grow up in Romania where there's an hour of TV a night and it's probably just propaganda. And then you move to America where everybody just like watches TV and goes to the movies and this is before – probably before the heavy days of the internet and social media. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
You say blew your mind, but I can imagine that a lot of pop culture did because you weren't a part of it. You didn't get to grow up with it the way everybody around you in America did.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
What did you do to try to catch up?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
It seems like you spent part of your early life in hiding. Literally, you had to watch what you said in Romania. In Vienna, you had to learn German to fit in, and you had to learn that from scratch. You come to America, you try to be like other teens, even though you had a totally different background than American teens did.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So there's a lot that you had to acquire and a lot probably that you had to hide.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So I'm thinking about your mother here. Your mother moves with you and your new stepfather to New York. It's always hard to uproot a child and uproot them to another country. That's probably super hard.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
But I'm thinking the life you have now, the respect and fame that you've achieved, all that you've accomplished must make her feel really good about the decisions that she made and alleviate any guilt that she might have experienced at the beginning when you were trying so hard to acclimate to a new country.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So at the Oscars, I always wonder what's it like if you lose and the camera is on you and you have to pretend like I'm so happy for the winner. That's so wonderful.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Sebastian Stanis, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much and good luck at the Oscars.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role in the film The Apprentice. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
In the film The Apprentice, he plays Trump early in his career. The filmmakers received a cease-and-desist letter from Trump's lawyers, And Trump called the filmmakers human scum.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
All right. Thank you for that. Let's hear a dance to the music.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So that was Sly and the Family Stones, 1968 hit, Dance to the Music. And the drumming is so infectious. It's hard not to move when you hear that. And it's not fancy.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Stan is originally from Romania, born during a communist dictatorship. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So, but there's a lot going on in that song, including like the, the kind of scatting part of,
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
But then he also does a lot of things that become beats for hip-hop artists later.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
My guest is Amir Questlove Thompson. His new documentary, Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius, is now streaming on Hulu. We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Today, Amir Questlove-Thompson is back to talk about the life and legacy of Sly Stone. Questlove's new documentary, called Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius, is about the impact of Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone on music and culture. Sly got his start as a DJ and record producer in the early 1960s.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
So I want to play another Sly track and talk about it with you because I found the film so interesting in really pointing to specifically what makes Sly's music so interesting and catchy and why so many people kind of, as you put it, use his vocabulary. So I want to play everyday people because this has significance in a lot of ways.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
I mean, Sly's band is made up of black and white musicians, male and female musicians, and everyday people speaks to inclusivity, right? So can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the types of music that are drawn on in Sly's music and the kind of inclusivity that he represented within the band and in some of his lyrics?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone
Well, let's hear everyday people, and this is from 1969. So that was Everyday People, which, as you pointed out, has a kind of nursery rhyme part to it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
You were the music director and band leader at The Late Night with Stephen Colbert from its inception in 2015 until 2022. Toward the end of that period, which is also the period that you were nominated for a record number of Grammys in different categories. And you won five Grammys, including Album of the Year. Your now wife, Sulayka Jouad, she was very sick.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
She had had a recurrence of leukemia that she'd had about 11 years before that. And she needed a bone marrow transplant, her second one, because she had one during the first occurrence. And those are just awful. I mean, basically, they give you this very, very heavy-duty chemo that nearly kills you. It kills your immune system so that you don't fight the transplant.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
But a lot of people come like within like an inch of death and then have to, you know, recover and your immune system shot. So you can't be around anything or anybody that might expose you to any kind of germ. What was it like for you to be living in two worlds at once? You're getting all these accolades, you're performing on the Grammys, you're You're still at late night with Stephen Colbert.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
People are seeing you every night. You have a reputation of joy, of bringing joy to where you are. And meanwhile, your wife is really suffering. I'm sure you are suffering just, you know, watching her. What was it like to have two worlds at the same time?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Can you play one of the lullabies that you sent her?
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Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
That was beautiful, John.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
You know, the beginning, getting back to Beethoven, the beginning of that reminded me of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Am I crazy for saying that, by the way?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
It's always a joy when John Batiste joins us at the piano, and that's how I felt about the session we recorded last week with him at the piano. Batiste was the bandleader and music director of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert from its premiere in 2015 until 2022.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
That same year, his album called We Are received 11 Grammy nominations in seven different categories and won five Grammys, including Album of the Year. He wrote the score for this year's film Saturday Night about the first SNL broadcast. He also appears in the film as musician Billy Preston, the first musical guest. Batiste is a jazz musician who also studied classical music at Juilliard,
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
where he got his B.A. and M.A. and is now on the board. But his music is more expansive than jazz and classical, as you can tell just by the varied Grammy categories in which he's been nominated for or won awards. Jazz performance, American root song, contemporary classical composition,
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
jazz instrumental, R&B album, improvised jazz solo, pop duo or group performance, and original score for the animated film Soul. He currently has two Grammy nominations, Best Music Film and Best Song Written for Visual Media, for the documentary American Symphony. The film is about composing his American Symphony and performing the premiere in Carnegie Hall.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
The film also developed into something totally unexpected, a document of the period his wife, Sulayka Jawad, was diagnosed with a recurrence of leukemia, which had been in remission for over 10 years. The occasion for his appearance today is his new album, Beethoven Blues. It features his reimaginings of Beethoven compositions.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Since we're fortunate to have him at the piano, he'll play some of the music from that album and more. John Batiste, welcome back to Fresh Air. I love your new album. The documentary about you and your wife's bone marrow transplant was really moving, so it's a pleasure to have you back on our show. And how is she?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
She sounds that way from the documentary, and I'm very glad to hear that. So I want to start with some music, and you are at the piano, so you will be playing it for us. And the lead track of your Beethoven Blues album is for Elise. And I think anyone who's taken piano lessons with any amount of classical music has had to learn this. And you do some really fascinating things with it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Why is it the lead track of the album?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, and you learned it as a kid?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
So before you play it, I want to ask you, are you going to play it like you played it on the album? Because my understanding is you did a lot of improvising in real time for that recording. Or are you going to do different things with it now?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Okay, let's hear it. You're at the piano. Can you play it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
That was great. That's John Batiste at the piano at the studio of WNYC. And it's also the lead Beethoven tune on his new album, Beethoven Blues. And John, that sounded great. You know, you mentioned in, I think, your official statement about the album that you think Beethoven is really kind of connected to the blues, even though he's centuries before the blues.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Can you just like illustrate what you mean by that? Like play some passage of Beethoven that makes you think of the blues?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Tell me what you mean.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Don't you find it interesting that there are certain like harmonies, chords, rhythms that it took centuries or millennia to get to? You know, like jazz chords, gospel chords, like they weren't, quote, invented yet in Beethoven's time.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
So there's another Beethoven symphony excerpt that I'd like you to play for us, if you will. And it's from a symphony number five, which, again, is something like everybody knows. It's da-da-da-dum, that one.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
So what do you hear in this that made you want to reimagine it, improvise on it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Yeah, love it. And so John Batiste's new album is called Beethoven Blues. He's performing for us at the piano from the studio of WNYC in New York. And everything that he's just played is also on his new album. We'll hear more with John Batiste after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Something that's similar and different is clothing. Like in the military, you have a uniform, which is kind of a costume, but it's a uniform. Everybody has the uniform. And in movies, like you've worn so many different kinds of costumes over the years. So do you feel like clothing... Like your interest in clothing, was that influenced in the negative or positive by the uniforms of the military?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
And I don't know even if you ever saw your father or any other of your relatives or even your brother in uniform and what that meant to you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
I think you've just described your interest in androgynous style.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
You've described yourself as queer, but not in the LGBTQ community. spectrum. So when you use the word queer, what do you mean?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
We're all queer fish. I know in boarding school you were bullied. What were you bullied for, do you know?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Tilda Swinton, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and thank you for making this movie. I just really love your new movie.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
My guest, Tilda Swinton, stars in a new, beautiful movie called The Room Next Door. She plays a war correspondent who has dodged death several times. Now she has cancer, for which she's received harsh treatments, including in clinical trials. But the cancer progresses. She's rejecting more treatment, refusing to continue suffering, and has decided it's time to end her life.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
The film is about suffering and death and choice, but it's a beautiful film because of the sometimes poetic dialogue, the emotional depth.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
The relationship between the two main characters and the contrast between Swinton's ghostly presence in the film and the vibrant, color-saturated world around her, including the clothes, the walls, and the furniture, and the woods, it's a form of beauty and contrast I've come to expect from the film's writer and director, Pedro Almodovar.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
He's Spanish, and this is his first English-language feature film. Tilda Swinton started off in the film Avant-Garde. She made several films with the director Derek Jarman, including her first film, Caravaggio, and never expected, or maybe never even sought, commercial success. But she got it anyway.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Many filmgoers were introduced to her in the title role of the 1992 film Orlando, adapted from a 1928 Virginia Woolf novel, in which a young nobleman, a Swinton won an Oscar for her performance in the popular 2007 legal thriller Michael Clayton.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
She's been in several Wes Anderson films, the Joanna Hogg films The Souvenir and The Eternal Daughter, and the Luca Guadagnino films I Am Love, Suspiria, and A Bigger Splash, the Julio Torres film Problemista, and the Coen brothers Hail Caesar and Burn After Reading. Swinton even has a place in the Marvel Cinematic Universe as the Ancient One.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Her new film, The Room Next Door, is adapted from the 2020 novel What Are You Going Through? by Sigrid Nunes. Swinton's character, Martha, is planning to end her life. She doesn't want to die in her Manhattan home surrounded by things she loves. She thinks it will be easier to die in a house in the woods that has no personal connection.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
So she rents a beautiful home in the woods for one month, planning on dying before the month is up. She wants solitude, but she also wants a friend to accompany her. After several friends decline, she asks an old friend who Martha had lost touch with. The friend, Ingrid, played by Julianne Moore, is a novelist who has found out Martha is sick and has been visiting her.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Ingrid's latest novel draws on her own fear of death. Here's Tilda Swinton as Martha, explaining the situation to Ingrid.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Tilda Swinton, welcome to Fresh Air. I love this movie. I love your performance in it. And I want to congratulate you for making something that is so moving with such a great performance.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Yes, and Happy New Year to you. I know you had friends, including your close friend, Derek Jarman, who made the first films you were in, who died during the AIDS epidemic, and your parents died. Are there ways, I know you have a lot of people in your life who have died, are there ways in which the screenplay and your character connect with you on a very personal level?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
So many of Almodovar's movies are about death or pain or hospitalization, and they're all so beautiful.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
So what was it like for you after having, you know, borne witness to and helped people who were close to you and were dying? What's it like for you to be on the other side in this role as the person who is dying and wants to terminate her life?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
And just in case people get the characters' names confused, Ingrid is the person who's helping your character. Your character is dying. Yes. She's accompanying you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
The friends and family whose deaths you witnessed and whose end of life you witnessed, were they fearful of death? Some of them.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Your character is kind of ghostly in it. And you're very pale because you're dying. And it's such a contrast to the world of saturated color that surrounds you. And I'm wondering, did you do anything to make yourself appear more ghostly?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
You're from a military family. Seems to me you went in the opposite direction in your artistic life. You got your start in the avant-garde. And the avant-garde, it breaks the rules. It's unconventional. And in the military, there are rules that are strictly followed. And it's hard to be—unless you're thinking of an unconventional war strategy and you're in a leadership position—
Fresh Air
'Adolescence' Co-Creator/Actor Asks Not Whodunnit, But Why
And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive.
Fresh Air
'Adolescence' Co-Creator/Actor Asks Not Whodunnit, But Why
So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
Fresh Air
'Adolescence' Co-Creator/Actor Asks Not Whodunnit, But Why
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Our guest, British actor Stephen Graham, stars in not one, but two new shows, Hulu's A Thousand Blows and the Netflix miniseries Adolescence. He spoke with Fresh Air producer Sam Brigger. Here's Sam.
Fresh Air
'Adolescence' Co-Creator/Actor Asks Not Whodunnit, But Why
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Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Yeah. You told us a little bit about what your inauguration day was like. Let's skip ahead to the inauguration of your successor, Ronald Reagan. What were you feeling that day as you realized that the hostages were going to be released on his watch, not on yours?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
But a sour economy and a 444-day hostage crisis in Iran, in which 52 American diplomats were held captive, undercut his public support, and he lost his bid for re-election to former Governor Ronald Reagan of California in 1980.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Jimmy Carter, recorded in 1993. After a short break, we'll hear excerpts from other interviews I recorded with Carter, in which he talked about his work as a mediator negotiating an end to wars and ethnic violence, his deep religious faith and his insistence on keeping church and state separate when he was president, and his reflections on getting older.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
We'll end the first half of our program with Aretha Franklin singing at Carter's inaugural gala in 1977. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
He spent his post-presidency, however, on a series of philanthropic causes around the world, like building houses for the poor, combating guinea worm, a parasitic tropical disease. promoting human rights in places of repression, monitoring elections, and seeking to end violent conflicts.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. We're looking back on the life of Jimmy Carter and listening to excerpts of my interviews with him. After his presidency, Carter became one of the most sought-after mediators in the world. He negotiated with military rulers and tyrants. In 1995, I interviewed Carter about this work.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
His work as a former president in many ways came to eclipse his time in the White House, eventually earning him the Nobel Peace Prize, unquote. Let's begin with the interview I recorded with Carter in 1993, after the publication of his memoir, Turning Point, about his first campaign when he won his seat in the Georgia State Senate. That was in 1962, the year he decided to enter politics.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
He had recently brokered a ceasefire in the bloody Balkan War, which put him across the table from the Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karatic, who was later convicted of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Let me ask a question that I'm sure a lot of people have wondered about. You have such a strong human rights record.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
What is it like for you to sit opposite someone like Karatic, knowing the war crimes that he's guilty of? Do you have to enter negotiations with someone who is a tyrant in a fairly nonjudgmental way and be as cordial and open as you possibly can?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
If you were able to turn back the clock and have the knowledge and the experience as an international mediator that you have now, Would you have handled the hostage negotiations with Iran any differently?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
That was an excerpt of my 1995 interview with Jimmy Carter. The following year, I spoke with him about his memoir Living Faith. As a Southern Baptist, he was considered a progressive evangelical. I asked him about how he approached his faith in the years following his presidency.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
That's an interesting way to look at it, though, that you took an oath before God to actually serve the country. And so you felt that you had it straight with your religion that you were in this office to serve the country. And it wasn't about your personal religious convictions when it came down to certain issues. It was about what you thought was best for the country or in the majority interest.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
While you were in the White House and while you were campaigning for president, did you feel that a lot of Americans misunderstood or misinterpreted what it meant to you to be born again?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
We're listening to my 1996 interview with Jimmy Carter. We'll hear more after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Jimmy Carter in 1996 after the publication of his memoir, Living Faith. How did you approach your prayer life in the White House? You say in your book that other presidents have brought in Billy Graham to organize worship for them, but you didn't want to do that in the White House.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
You thought it violated your sense of separation of church and state. So what did you do?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
What was your sense of prayer when you were a child, and how has your sense of prayer changed as an adult?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Tell me if this is too personal, okay? What were the times in your life that you thought God betrayed you?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
You say you found blatant voting abuse. What's the worst example of voting abuse that you faced during that first campaign of yours?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
The interview with Jimmy Carter we just heard was recorded in 1996 after the publication of his memoir, Living Faith. After a break, we'll hear his reflections on aging recorded after the publication of his memoir, The Virtues of Aging. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
This is Fresh Air. Today we have been looking back on the life of Jimmy Carter through a series of Fresh Air interviews. The final excerpt we'll hear today is about his relationship with his wife, Rosalyn Carter. Jimmy Carter had been under hospice care for months when Rosalyn died at age 96. By all accounts, they had a strong, loving, and supportive relationship.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
After he lost his re-election campaign and left the White House in 1981, when he was 56, he and Rosalind returned home to Plains, Georgia. Although they hardly retired, and Carter had one of the most productive post-presidencies in American history, they faced something many retired couples face—more time home together, perhaps too much time.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
He and Rosalind learned they needed to give each other a lot of private space to keep separate except for time they'd scheduled to be together. I spoke with Jimmy Carter about this in 1998 after the publication of his book, The Virtues of Aging. I asked him how they first realized that too much time together was the source of tension.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Jimmy Carter, my guest, his new book is called The Virtues of Aging. You say one thing we must do nowadays is prepare for long, drawn-out illnesses near the end of life, now that there's the medical technology to sustain us through long, chronic illnesses.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about living wills or if any place you'd want to draw the line if you had a debilitating chronic illness.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
you said that one of the most interesting and gratifying responsibilities at your age is to decide what to do with accumulated wealth and possessions. And you and Rosalind are planning to leave a substantial portion of your estate to the Carter Center. And I'm wondering how you've both decided what's the right thing to do, you know, by your country and by your children.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
You know, how much to give to the Carter Center, how much to leave for your children. I think that's, you know, for people who are lucky enough to be in that position, it's a difficult question.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
The interview we just heard with Jimmy Carter was recorded in 1998. He died yesterday at the age of 100. Rest in peace. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we'll continue our end-of-the-year series collecting a few of the 2024 interviews we particularly enjoyed. We'll feature the interview with Mark Ruffalo.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
This year, he was nominated for an Oscar for his hilarious performance in Poor Things as a foppish rake who seduces Emma Stone's character. In the Marvel Cinematic Universe, he's the Hulk. I hope you'll join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Today's edition was produced by Roberta Shorrock, who also directs the show.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Our technical director is Audrey Bentham, with engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yukundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Well, how did you win? How did you get your fair count?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we remember Jimmy Carter and listen back to excerpts of the interviews I recorded with him over the years. He died at the age of 100 and had been the oldest living former president in American history. In the New York Times, Peter Baker wrote this summary of Carter's public life, quote,
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Jimmy Carter, before we go any further, I'm going to ask you for a little lesson in etiquette. Do I call you President Carter, Mr. President, our former President Jimmy Carter? What is the appropriate etiquette when you're talking to a former President of the United States?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Let me ask you, you've been devoting your post-presidential career to monitoring elections around the world, conflict negotiation around the world, human rights around the world. You also have a project in Atlanta to help empower the homeless and the poor. When you left office, what did you see ahead? What did you think you would do?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Was there a moment of revelation when it started to occur to you the role that you could take in this nation and in the world as a past president of the United States?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
Jimmy Carter, recorded in 1993, one of several conversations we're featuring with him today. When we spoke in 93, Carter had just published his memoir, Turning Point. He was elected president in 1976. I asked him about the high points and the low points of his inauguration day.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
then ousting the incumbent Republican president, Gerald Ford, in the fall. Over the course of four years in office, he sought to restore trust in government following the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal, ushering in reforms that were meant to transform politics. He negotiated the landmark Camp David Accords, making peace between Israel and Egypt.
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
What was the most disorienting part of your first day and night in the White House?
Fresh Air
Remembering President Jimmy Carter (Part I)
What about during the hostage crisis? Was there ever a point where you wished that you weren't president, where you wished that you didn't have this terrible burden on your shoulders?
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
One of the things that you highlight in the SNL documentary is the role of SNL in the world of hip-hop. And tell the story of how Deborah Harry basically broke hip-hop on SNL.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
My guest is Amir Questlove-Thompson. His film, Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music, premieres tonight on NBC and starts streaming on Peacock tomorrow. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. Some of my favorite parts of the movie are the stories about things that have gone wrong, followed by clips of showing what went wrong and how it really shocked everybody behind the scenes.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
And one of those stories is Elvis Costello. So, you know, he does one song during dress rehearsal that I guess he and Lorne Michaels had agreed on.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
And then he stops it after a few bars. Let's hear what happens.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
When he stopped, the hubbub in the studio was like, oh my God, oh my God, what's going to happen? You couldn't hear it.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
That's such a great story. I love it. And I think you made a good choice. I love both songs, but I do think you made the right choice.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
He, in fact, plays the song that we already heard as the first song.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Everyone in the audience knows this is wrong, and there's no way of covering that up.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Let's hear some of what happened behind the scenes.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
And the rumors were after that, I think there were two rumors after that, if I remember correctly. One was that, oh, she really can't sing. So not because of a sore throat, but because she's not capable of singing live. And therefore, they had to have her lip sync. And the other rumor was, oh, there's probably lots of acts that are really lip syncing.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. As part of Saturday Night Live's 50th anniversary celebration this year, tonight NBC will premiere a documentary highlighting the music guests and music comedy sketches that the show has featured over the decades. It's called Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
So I assume that what they're lip syncing to is a live performance. That's not the record.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
You're talking about in concert right now, right?
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Well, you still have one mystery for me, which is how do singers manage to sing when they're doing this elaborate workout with their choreography when you're going to be out of breath?
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
My guest is Questlove. His film, Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music, premieres tonight on NBC and starts streaming on Peacock tomorrow. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
So, you know, we were talking a little bit about how you ended up being the band leader of The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. Did Paul Schaeffer or any subsequent band leaders influence how you wanted to be, both as an individual and as a band, on The Tonight Show?
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
So several of the people who have been music guests on Saturday Night Live talk about how nervous they were the first time around or the only time around. And one of them is Dave Grohl, who talks about how his first appearance with Nirvana, he was so nervous. He played so hard.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
He said, when I get nervous, I play really hard that he broke like a drumstick within 20 seconds and a little while later broke through the skin of one of his drums. But I wonder if that's something you have to deal with on The Tonight Show.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Do you ever have to calm down guest artists who either get nervous in front of an audience in general or just get nervous because they're not really used to national TV?
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
You can't say, don't worry about it. It's no big deal. It's just national TV.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Amir, it's been so great to talk with you. Thank you for being such a regular guest on our show. It's a joy. Thank you. Amira Questlove Thompson's new film, Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music, is part of SNL's 50th anniversary celebration. It premieres on NBC tonight and starts streaming on Peacock tomorrow.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
There's a part two of that interview in which we talk about another new Questlove documentary about Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone. It's called Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius. It just premiered at the Sundance Film Festival and will start streaming on Hulu February 13th. We'll feature that interview sometime in the next few weeks.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review Ringo Starr's new album. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Ringo Starr has released a new album of country songs called Look Up. It's a collaboration with producer T-Bone Burnett, who wrote many of the songs, and it features appearances by Alison Krauss and a new young bluegrass star, Billy Strings. Ringo recently taped a country special that will air on CBS in the spring, and in February, he'll make his debut at Nashville's Grand Ole Opry.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Not bad for an 84-year-old ex-Beatle. Rock critic Ken Tucker has a review of Look Up.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Ken Tucker reviewed Ringo Starr's new country album called Look Up. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be Harvard professor and MacArthur fellow Imani Perry. Her new book is called Black and Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. Perry's last book, South to America, won the National Book Award for Nonfiction in 2022. I hope you'll join us. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
It was co-directed by my guest, Grammy-winning musician and Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker Amir Questlove Thompson. He's the co-founder, leader, and drummer of the hip-hop band The Roots. It's the house band for another late-night show, The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. Before Questlove talks about the movie and how SNL has influenced him as a musician and
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
David Bianculli is Professor of Television Studies at Rowan University in New Jersey. The Morgan Neville documentary series SNL 50 is streaming on Peacock. The documentary, Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music, will be broadcast tonight on NBC and will start streaming on Peacock tomorrow. It was co-directed by my guest, Amir Questlove-Thompson.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
He's the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, who is a former SNL cast member. Questlove has become one of Fresh Air's most frequent guests because he does so many interesting books and movies in addition to his work with his band On and Beyond The Tonight Show. Questlove actually has two new documentary films.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
The second is about Sly and the Family Stone. It's called Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius. It premiered over the weekend at the Sundance Film Festival and will start streaming on Hulu February 13th. We'll talk about that documentary in the next few weeks. His 2021 documentary, Summer of Soul, about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, won an Oscar for Best Documentary.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Amir, welcome back to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you back on.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Were there roots ever on SNL?
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
and late-night band leader, our TV critic David Bianculli is going to review the film, along with a documentary series that's also part of the 50th anniversary celebration. That series is streaming on Peacock.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Good. So do you think that the Saturday Night Live band, particularly in the Paul Schaeffer era, though, I don't know what era you started watching. I assume it was Paul Schaeffer era.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
One of the questions that you ask both cast members and people behind the scenes at SNL is, can you hum the SNL theme? So I want to play the attempts to hum the theme and then talk to you about it. Yes. Okay.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
I can't hum the theme either.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
I immediately went to the actual theme. And before we hear it, I want to challenge our listeners to just pause and think for a second if they can hum the theme. Now let's play the theme. You know what I realized listening back, which I hadn't ever really thought of before?
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
There isn't a melody. I mean, it's like you're coming in in the middle of an improvisation.
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Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Now, you wrote the theme for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
And it's almost as if to avoid people saying, I can't hum the theme. You and the band actually kind of hum-scat the theme.
Fresh Air
Questlove Digs Into 50 years Of 'SNL' Musical Hits (And Misses)
Okay, let's hear a little bit of your theme for The Tonight Show. So having gone through 50 years of musical guests, what's one of the performances that had a big impact on you when you were a kid and had to be in bed at 830, but you managed to watch Saturday Night Live?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
How familiar were you with the show?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
What I read about when Trevor Noah resigned is that you had just done a bit. And then without you knowing that Trevor Noah was resigning, he resigns on the air right after you're on. Were you on camera?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You were on camera.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Why did he do it that way?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Maybe he didn't want anybody to leak it.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Ah, that's a possibility, too.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
What was the expression on your face like as you heard him resigning?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You might have also been thinking, uh-oh, what happens to The Daily Show? What happens to my job?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
My guest is Ronnie Chang, a field correspondent on The Daily Show and one of the anchors. He co-stars on the new Hulu series, Interior Chinatown. His new comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow, December 17th. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
After Trevor Noah left, there was a roster of celebrity comics who anchored the show. And then there was a hiatus, I guess, over the summer.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
No, exactly. And then the correspondents started rotating who anchored the show. And I wasn't sure, like, is this a temporary thing? Have they decided against having one host or one celebrity comic hosting? And it's turned out so far to be the real thing with the correspondents.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Hosting, you know, anchoring, are you at liberty to say why the decision was made to have alternating correspondence anchor as opposed to one person or one famous comic?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Jon Stewart, who's back on the show once a week.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You've been in films. You're now the co-star of the series Interior Chinatown. And it's a cliche that the Asian guy is the best friend. Yes. But in a film where the main character is Asian, and much of the story is set in Chinatown, you're the best friend of the other Asian guy.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
It's kind of a theme of the series that the main character feels just kind of invisible. And he wants to be the star of his own life. So I want to play a clip from Interior Chinatown. And you and Jimmy O. Yang, the main character in the series, you're both working at a restaurant in Chinatown and don't really like the job. You're just doing it.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So in this scene from the first episode, you're both in the alleyway where the dumpster is. Yeah. And you're both talking and the Jimmy O. Yang character is talking about how he's like a minor character in his own life and invisible in the world. And he wants to be the main character. He wants to be the star of something. He wants to solve a murder mystery like they do on TV.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So this is the conversation between Yim and Jimmy O. Yang. He speaks first.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Okay. That was my guest, Ronnie Chang, with Jimmy O. Yang in a scene from Interior Chinatown. In the film Crazy Rich Asians, you have a real standout scene. You're kind of a minor character in it.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
But it's a great scene. Does it feel qualitatively different to be in a film with an Asian-themed story and largely Asian cast?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So correct me if I'm wrong, you're third generation Malaysian?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Chinese Malaysian. So what I read is that your parents moved to the U.S. when you were three. You stayed with family in Malaysia or Singapore, and then you moved a year later when you were four.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Did you recognize your parents?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is comic, actor, and political satirist Ronnie Chang. He became a correspondent for the satirical new show The Daily Show in 2015 after Trevor Noah asked him to audition. Now Chang is one of the rotating correspondents who anchor the show. He also co-stars in the new Hulu series Interior Chinatown.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So what was it like when they decided to move back to Malaysia?
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
My guest is comic and actor Ronnie Chang. His new comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow. We'll be back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Renu Cheng, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
What was it like for you getting started in comedy in the U.S., being an immigrant and being of Chinese-Malaysian descent?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
What else did your father say to you when you found out you wanted to be a comedian?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So earlier you said that you didn't tell your parents when you were on The Daily Show. And they didn't know what The Daily Show was because they'd never seen it. It's not big in Malaysia. Did they start watching it after you felt like you were doing a decent job and they could watch it?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Wow. Did you think that that might be true?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Apparently your father was very funny and prided himself on that. Yes. What kind of sense of humor did he have? Did he tell jokes or stories?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You seem to have such an interesting perspective on the world and on comedy because you've lived and grown up in so many different countries. Sure. And traveled the world doing comedy, too. How helpful is that to you as a person and as a comic?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Ronny Chieng, thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been a pleasure.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Ronnie Chang's new Netflix comedy special, Love to Hate It, starts streaming tomorrow, December 17th. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening back to the pop music made in 2024 and sees a pattern of women hitmakers who prize both aggression and vulnerability in various proportions. In songs by Charlie XCX, Sabrina Carpenter, Chapel Roan, and others, Ken has found the soundtrack to the past year's tumultuous times.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
It's a big achievement. That's not a small achievement. Sure.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Ken Tucker is Fresh Air's rock critic. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, my guests will be Billie Eilish and Phineas O'Connell, the internationally famous brother and sister songwriting and music-making duo. We'll talk about what it was like to be homeschooled, become famous in their teens, and how their lives and music have changed as adults. They have a new album. I hope you'll join us.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenato, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberto Shorrock directs the show.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You deprive them of bragging rights.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
A line that really stands out to me in the bit that we just heard is, you know, why would you do that? Why would you become a comet? Why would you make jokes to people who don't care about your mental health? Yeah. Did your father say that or did you just come up with that? No, no.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
My dad never grabbed... But why did that occur to you to write that? Like... To people who don't care about your mental health. I thought that was very funny. I've never heard anybody put it that way.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
He had a memorable funny scene in Crazy Rich Asians as a wealthy investment banker in Singapore. Ronnie Chang has a new Netflix comedy special called Love to Hate It, which starts streaming tomorrow. He brings an international perspective to his comedy. He was born in Malaysia. where his grandparents emigrated from China.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So you grew up mostly in Malaysia, which is one bridge away from Singapore. You compared it to me to how New York is to New Jersey.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Or how Philadelphia is to New Jersey on the opposite side.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So were you exposed to much stand-up in Malaysia or Singapore?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You said you were introduced to Jewish people from Seinfeld.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld. So what did it make you think Jewish people were like?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Your new comedy special was filmed in Honolulu.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Where Doogie... Kamealoha. Yes, thank you. This is like a Doogie Howser adjacent series.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Yeah, a reboot that you were in. And you're very popular there. Or so you say. Yeah, sure. And you say you have a lot of MAGA friends there. And on The Daily Show, you spent a lot of time satirizing Trump.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So how do you get around arguing about politics with your mega friends?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
From age three to seven, he lived in Manchester, New Hampshire, where his parents attended college. Then the family returned to Malaysia, which is basically across the bridge from Singapore, so he spent a lot of time there. He attended college in Australia, where he got his B.A. in finance and his law degree, while also doing stand-up comedy. Let's start with a clip from his new comedy special.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
You say you love America. This is the country that puts showbiz above everything.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
And then you get paid for saying F the president. And then money comes in and you say, if you did this in Malaysia, jail.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
But now Trump has an enemies list. He's threatening retribution and he's trying to revoke TV network broadcast licenses.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
So how do you feel about insulting Trump now?
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Well, I hope you're right.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Let's hear a clip from The Daily Show. And this is from the day after Kamala Harris conceded. So it's two days after Election Day. And you say Trump's promised a peaceful transfer of power. And then you say, let's hear it for the bare minimum of democracy. And here's the rest of the clip.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
This is from a section about how he and his wife aren't ready for children, but his wife had her eggs harvested for possible future use. He's imagining what his child, if he ever has one, might say to him.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
That's not really true about the money, I'm sure.
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Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Okay. So you got on The Daily Show after Trevor Noah became the anchor and you knew him from performing at the same comedy festival in Melbourne, Australia, which is where you went to college. How surprised were you to get the call?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Well, I don't want to get into an argument about this, so I'll just say— Well, what's funny is this is how I discuss things. I will just say that—what was the other thing that you just said? I just lost it for a second trying to—
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
But people were protecting him. You know, people were protecting the musicians, the. I'm not arguing that aspect of it.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Anyhow, let's move on.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
No, I mean, I think cancel culture probably went too far. I think it's an issue by issue thing. We agree. And there's a real kind of herd mentality around some of it. I think that's really up for a nuanced discussion about what deserves cancellation and what's just like... Nuanced discussion is not one of my strong points. Yeah. Okay.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Anyhow, we've been talking about anger and also channeling that into your work as an actor and a comic. I watched a clip of you on The Moth. The Moth is a storytelling podcast that is also a public radio program. And you're so different in that. You're sitting on a stool, not kind of pacing back and forth on the stage. You hadn't shaved your head yet, so you have, you know, red hair.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
You hadn't gone bald yet.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Yeah, that one was recorded about 20 years ago.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
But you're sitting on a stool telling a story that has a few laughs in it.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
If you're just joining us, my guest is comic and actor Bill Burr. He's got a new comedy special that's about to start streaming on Hulu. It's called Drop Dead Years. And he's one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of David Mamet's Glengarry Glen Ross. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. Let's talk a little bit about your childhood.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Your father, apparently, you know, from what I've heard you say, had real rage problems, real anger problems.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I know. I love that. Yeah.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
It's very funny when you say it and you're literally right.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Did your father go off on you?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I think probably yes.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Okay, that's Bill Burr from his new comedy special. He's also one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of the David Mamet play, Glengarry Glen Ross. The revival has an incredible cast, Burr, Kieran Culkin, Bob Odenkirk, and Michael McKean. Burr co-starred in the film King of Staten Island, which was loosely based on the life of the film's star, Pete Davidson.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I think you're really good at transforming your real anger and your history of real anger and your history of being the target of real anger into comedy. And an example of that I want to play is from the animated series that you starred in and co-wrote F is for Family.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
And in the opening episode, the family's sitting around the dinner table and the phone rings and the father really goes off on it and you play the father. So let's hear that scene and then we'll talk. I'm not answering that. Frank, you should answer it. What if somebody got hurt?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
What if it's important?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Bercow created, co-wrote, and starred in the animated series F is for Family. Although he's known for comedy that's often contrarian and angry, the new comedy special, Drop Dead Years, opens like this.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
It must be great to see yourself through their eyes. They probably have a different picture of you than you think other people have. They don't have this vision of you as like the angry guy on stage.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Burr, and he has a new comedy special. It begins streaming on Hulu March 14th. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. So you're a father of two and one of your series that I think you co-created, Old Dads, right?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Well, one of the things in Old Dads is that the older fathers, which includes you, don't relate to some of the younger parents and how they're parenting their kids. Did you find that with yourself, you know, being a father?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
So, you know what I'd like to do?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
You do a podcast where you talk like an hour straight. I know. Or more, often more. Your mind probably is always on overdrive.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Oh, really? Well, those are really interesting insights. And you got them from doing mushrooms?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I feel a responsibility to say here that it's recommended that if you do mushrooms, you do it in a therapeutic setting. So if things do go bad, you have somebody to guide you through it, because you really don't know what to expect. You might want help.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic and actor Bill Burr. He's got a new comedy special that's about to start streaming on Hulu. It's called Drop Dead Years. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
So I'm tempted to do something and I don't know whether I should do it or not. Do it. Okay. So here's what I'd like to do. There's a bit that you do and I found myself both laughing and stopping laughing and then figuring out like, I'm not sure which way to take this. And so what I'd like to do is- That's amazing.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Good, so let's play it, and then we can talk about it, if that's okay with you.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Okay, great. So this is a part, you've just talked about men and all of, like, a lot of men's flaws. Then you say, you know, you're going to talk about women.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Bill Burr, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Okay. So that's my guest, Bill Burr. Here's what I want to talk with you about. I want to talk to you about perspective. Because when I listen to that, I think that is really funny if you're coming from the perspective of, of course, men have to be involved because the whole point of feminism is
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I'm good. It seems unusual for you to start on a note of vulnerability like you do in this new special. Does this mark a change in your public or private self?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
is becoming equal and getting men who perceive women as less than or as incompetent or stupid or any of the patronizing things or insulting things, misogynist things that men may think. Men have to change in order for feminism to succeed, in order for women to get The equality.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Because women were already subservient. Men already controlled everything. It's historically been that way. But why is that? Let me finish my point. So I think it's really funny if your perspective is like, this is funny because obviously men have to change in order for feminism to succeed. But it's not so funny to me if your perspective is what do they want from us men?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Why don't they just leave – this is their issue. Why don't they just leave us alone? And that to me isn't funny because that would mean like you don't get it. You don't get that men who still think that women are lesser than or secondary or not smart enough, not capable enough – not deserving of equality.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Bill Burr was recently described by New York Times comedy columnist Jason Zinnemann as one of the greatest living stand-up comics. In Rolling Stone, Burr was described as the undisputed heavyweight champ of rage-fueled humor. Bill Burr has a new comedy special on Hulu called Drop Dead Years. It starts streaming Friday, March 14th. Here's an excerpt.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
If you're coming from that perspective, it's not funny because it means you're clueless, that you don't get it. But if you do get it, it's really funny because you're coming from the perspective of getting it and mocking the people who don't. So your turn.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
They weren't given the chance to do it before. That's not true. The doors were closed.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
And women have gone through exactly the same thing if they're not beautiful or young enough. Exactly.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
But that's the thing. When I was growing up, the only jobs for women were nurses, teachers, cashiers, secretaries. There was very little else you could do. Well, okay, sex worker, yeah. There's very little else you could do. The doors are basically shut.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Yeah, so just getting back to that joke one more time. It's the kind of open-ended joke that you can see from either perspective.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I knew you wouldn't like this. I'm enjoying the hell out of this.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Okay, so I think... Try to establish that you could see that joke from two different perspectives, one of which I found really funny and the other which I found clueless. Do you want to leave it ambiguous like that so that bros in the audience can see it one way?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
You said you love debating.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
No, but it's interesting to me that you see yourself coming from both of those perspectives and that you have both of those perspectives.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I just want to say in case it's not clear, I think you're hilarious. There's some jokes where I stand back and I go, I'm not sure how to take that. But I think you're a great comment.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I love your voice. I love your delivery. I love your spontaneity.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
No, no. However. However? No, no. The only however is sometimes I just don't know how to take the jokes and I can interpret it one of two ways.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I really enjoyed it. Thank you.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Bill Burr's new comedy special, Drop Dead Years, starts streaming Friday on Hulu. He's one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of David Mamet's Glengarry Glen Ross. It begins previews tonight and opens March 31st. We recorded our interview last Tuesday. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be New York Times editor David Enrich. He'll talk about his new book, Murder the Truth.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
It chronicles a campaign by billionaires, politicians, and corporations to silence journalists and undermine free speech protections. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
So who was the person who told you? Was it your wife, your therapist?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
At the start of your new special, you said that you started doing stand-up because it was the easiest way of walking into a room and making people like you.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
So what kind of hurt? Are you talking about insults or being ignored, bullied, mocked?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Have you been abused in all those ways?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
He's talking about driving on the freeway in L.A., where he lives, when he's caught in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Meanwhile, there's hardly any cars in the HOV lane, the high-occupancy vehicle lane, which is reserved for vehicles with at least two people. He's tempted to get into that lane, even though there's no one else in his car. But he knows the HOV rules are strictly enforced.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Because it was mean? Um...
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I want to back up a little because when you were describing your anger and trying to change, you said you realized you'd been abusive. Do you mean verbally or physically?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Good. I just wanted to clarify that.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Well, that's one of the things you've talked about is that you had real road rage sometimes.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
And who is the they besides the people who eat almonds?
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
You can take him on.
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Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
I'm going to have you just blamed all of this on white women. Yes. Where are the men in what you're saying?
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
This is where you kind of lose me.
Fresh Air
Comic Bill Burr On Musk, Magic Mushrooms & Healing From His Childhood
Well, no, because the Me Too movement for women is about sexual assault.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Today, Amir Questlove-Thompson is back to talk about the life and legacy of Sly Stone. Questlove's new documentary called Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius, is about the impact of Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone on music and culture. Sly got his start as a DJ and record producer in the early 1960s.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
So let's talk about your slide documentary. I really love this film. I want to start with a song, and it's their first big hit. It's Dance to the Music. It's so catchy, and I'd like you to point out what makes this song special in its moment, which was 1967 or 8?
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
Yeah. And that has, like I said, the message of inclusivity and togetherness. But as someone in your documentary points out, that alienated a lot of black listeners in the sense that, you know, police were beating up black people, which, of course, you could say today as well. But it was a very it was and also like black power was was becoming a thing.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
My guest is Amir Questlove Thompson. His film Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius, will start streaming on Hulu Thursday. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
Okay. So what makes this song so special in its moment?
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week in exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. Well, you know, on the same album as Everyday People, his message about inclusivity, he has the song Stand. That's a message to take a stand, stand up for your rights, you know, demand your rights.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
And that resonated a lot within the black community.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
Yeah. So talk a little bit about that song and why you think that song is important musically and in terms of the message of the lyrics.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
So let's play that transitional part. So we hear some of the main song and then we hear what it transitions to at the end.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
So that was Stand, which is on the same 1969 album as Everyday People. And those two songs have a kind of contrast, like I said before, inclusivity and like stand up for your rights. And at this time, it's a catchy song, but it's also like a message song. And the Panthers, the Black Panthers, who are very active at this time, it's 1969, become really interested in Sly.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
And there's this really interesting part of the movie that talks about how the Panthers said, you need to join our group or you need to donate $100,000 to our group, to which Sly responds, give me a reason.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
Yeah, but isn't that because we all have pain and we like music that understands pain and puts our pain into something beautiful?
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
My guest is Questlove. His new documentary about Sly Stone is called Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius. It'll start streaming on Hulu Thursday. We'll talk more after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
So to illustrate the point that you were making about pain in music, let's listen to Family Affair, which is a song about, you know, kind of what you're saying, that one person does really well and other people in the family don't. And there's a lot of pain within the family. So this is Family Affair, Sly and the Family Stone.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
That was Sly and the Family Stone. My guest is Amir Questlove Thompson. His new documentary about the group and about Sly in particular is called Sly Lives, The Burden of Black Genius. So, you know, we talked about this a little bit. The subtitle of your film is The Burden of Black Genius.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
And your theory is that for black artists in America, success can be more terrifying than failure for the reasons that you described. What do you think the burden included for Sly? What were the personal burdens in his life in addition to being singled out and how singled out can mean removed from your own people? What are some of the personal burdens that you think he also shouldered?
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
I want to pick up on that because I think that genius is often accompanied by or fueled by some kind of mental health issue. Whether it's OCD or bipolar disorder that... There's something within you where you are wired to not necessarily be happy, but you are wired to do music or painting or writing. And you kind of have no choice.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
And there's even been studies about this, that you can have some kind of mental health issue. And that is often self-medicated with drugs. And I'm not trying to deny any of the things you said about how black artists have a burden that white artists don't. So I'm just trying to add.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
You talk the last time you were on our show about the importance of vulnerability and how it's time to talk about vulnerability and express vulnerability.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
My guest is Amir Questlove-Thompson. His new documentary, Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius, will start streaming on Hulu Thursday, February 13th. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. You talked to Sly, and I don't know how much he participated in the movie, but how would you describe him now? He's in his early 80s. He's clean. He hasn't used drugs.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
I'm not sure how long, but he's off of them as far as I can tell.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
It's been so great to talk with you. And I just like all these projects you're doing. It's really remarkable. I really look forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire movie now.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
Amir Questlove Thompson's new film is called Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius. It will start streaming on Hulu Thursday. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, my guest will be Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his performance as Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice, and he won a Golden Globe last month for his role in A Different Man.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
We'll talk about his early childhood in communist Romania and his path to the U.S. and acting, including his performances in multiple Marvel movies. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Mabel Donato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
All right. Thank you for that. Let's hear a dance to the music.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
formed a multiracial band with his brother, sister, and other musicians, and went on to record hits like Everyday People, Dance to the Music, Family Affair, and Stand. Their music influenced Prince, George Clinton and Funkadelic, The Ohio Players, Earth, Wind & Fire, and many hip-hop artists. The film also covers the problems that came along with fame and drugs that took Sly down.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
So that was Sly and the Family Stones, 1968 hit, Dance to the Music. And the drumming is so infectious. It's hard not to move when you hear that. And it's not fancy.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
But there's a lot going on in that song, including like the kind of scatting part.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
But then he also does a lot of things that become beats for hip-hop artists later.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
It premiered at Sundance last month and starts streaming on Hulu Thursday, February 13th. Questlove is the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
So I want to play another Sly track and talk about it with you because I found the film so interesting in really pointing to specifically what makes Sly's music so interesting and catchy and why so many people kind of, as you put it, use his vocabulary. So I want to play everyday people because this has significance in a lot of ways.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
I mean, Sly's band is made up of black and white musicians, male and female musicians, and everyday people speaks to inclusivity, right? So can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the types of music that are drawn on in Sly's music and the kind of inclusivity that he represented within the band and in some of his lyrics?
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
If you feel as if you just heard him on our show, you did when we talked about his other new documentary focused on Saturday Night Live's music guests and music sketches over the past 50 years. That one's called Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music. Questlove's 2021 documentary Summer of Soul, featuring performances from the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, won an Oscar for Best Documentary.
Fresh Air
Questlove On Sly Stone & The Burden Of Black Genius
Well, let's hear everyday people. And this is from 1969. So that was Everyday People, which, as you pointed out, has a kind of nursery rhyme part to it.
Fresh Air
At 3 Years Old, David Tennant Knew He Wanted To Be Doctor Who
Hi, this is Molly Sivinesper, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
Fresh Air
At 3 Years Old, David Tennant Knew He Wanted To Be Doctor Who
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week in exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
Fresh Air
At 3 Years Old, David Tennant Knew He Wanted To Be Doctor Who
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Fresh Air
At 3 Years Old, David Tennant Knew He Wanted To Be Doctor Who
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Today's guest, David Tennant, is best known as an actor, but he also has an interview podcast, which is now in its third season. Some of this year's guests include Stanley Tucci, Ben Schwartz, and Rosamund Pike. Tennant spoke with Fresh Air's Sam Brigger. Here's Sam.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive. So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. I first became aware of Hanef Qureshi when the 1985 film My Beautiful Laundrette was released. He was nominated for an Oscar for his screenplay about a side of contemporary England that had rarely been explored on screen, Pakistani immigrants and their children. The film was a lively romantic comedy about gay love, family, racism, and punk rock.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
So you're no longer sexual because of your paralysis. Like sex was a very central part of your life until the accident. And it was part of your writing as well. So you seem to have changed in terms of your attitude towards sex. At first, I think you really, really missed it. And then you got so used to not having it that you became kind of uninterested in it.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
You wrote, just because you're severely injured doesn't mean you don't think about sex. But you also write that you lost interest in sex once you couldn't have it. Can you describe that transition?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Hanif Qureshi, and his new memoir is called Shattered, and it's about the year he spent in hospitals after the fall that injured his spinal cord, leaving him unable to move his arms and legs. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Your father was an immigrant, and I want to get into that a little bit later. But I just want to talk about the contrast between the racial ethnic aspects of the hospital in Italy where you had your accident and in London, the hospitals you eventually moved to because you're from London, your partner's from Italy. So in Italy, just about everybody who worked in the hospital was white.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
When you went to hospitals in London, all the therapists and nurses, they were all people of color, often immigrants. And you were the only person here who speaks standard Middle English was you.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
And in America as well, in the U.S., so many health care workers, including caregivers and aides, are recent immigrants or immigrants who've been here for a longer time. Oh, and so many people who take care of children are also immigrants. And yet there's this strong anti-immigrant feeling in America, as I'm sure you know, and I think in England as well, right?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Your father emigrated to Britain in the late 1940s from Pakistan. Was he from a Muslim family? My understanding is he was relatively secular.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Yeah, and partition happened in, was it 1947, when India basically divided into two with Pakistan becoming a new Muslim state.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
And when you were growing up, one of the insulting words that you were called was Paki, short for like, yeah, go ahead.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
So was your father part of the first generation of a wave of immigrants to England from South Asia?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
I see. So what was it like for him and then for you as being his son to be part of a new wave of immigrants? I think, is it fair to say England was largely white at the time?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
When you were growing up, you were bullied by skinheads and other kids who were racist. How did you respond to that?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter, novelist, and playwright Hanif Qureshi. His new memoir is called Shattered, and it's about the year he spent in hospitals after the fall that injured his spinal cord, leaving him unable to move his arms and legs. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. You're a father. You have three sons. Two of them are twins.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
And your arm is strong enough to maneuver the controls of your motorized wheelchair.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
And, you know, you try to write as honestly as possible. And one of the things you write in your new memoir, Shattered, is, there has barely been a minute of the last 10 years when I haven't enjoyed being with my three sons. But I admit that the early days were difficult, if not nasty, even hair-raising on occasions.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
I often felt that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people. What was it about fatherhood early on when your kids were young that made you feel like you weren't living the life you were supposed to be living?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
The passage that I just read, did you dictate that to one of your sons? Because your sons helped you in writing the memoir because they transcribed what you were saying.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Well, because you said you didn't enjoy being a father and you were dictating this to a son. So I could see how he might interpret that as disappointing.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
And you also write you hated taking your children to karate and football and swimming. Oh, yeah.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
You're good friends with Salman Rushdie. And he wrote a really wonderful, like so well-written memoir about the incident where he was stabbed while on stage at the Chautauqua Festival. where he was making an appearance. And you write in your book that you've had many conversations with him subsequent to your injury and his attack, the attack on him. Did you read his memoir?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
So I'm trying to figure out what happened. You were dizzy and then you woke up in a pool of blood.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
I'm wondering if maybe you wanted to stay away from it knowing that you'd be writing your own thoughts.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Which happened first, your fall or his attack? I'm losing the chronology.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
What did he mean to you as another writer from South Asia, living in England? And he started writing—Midnight's Children was published before your screenplays and novels—
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter, novelist, and playwright Hanif Qureshi. His new memoir is called Shattered, and it's about the year he spent in hospitals after the fall that injured his spinal cord, leaving him unable to move his arms and legs. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
I don't know if you're a planner or not and if you look ahead into the future a lot or not. But has the accident changed your approach to planning, to looking at the future, to thinking what's next? Or are you living more like day to day and not thinking ahead very much?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
You mentioned you're doing a dance thing. What is that?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Well, it's nice that they asked. I mean, what an interesting and unusual opportunity.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Well, even your memoir is a collaboration because you dictated it to members of your family. And I'm sure they commented on it at some point as you were.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Okay. Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us and for sharing so much of your life. Thank you, Terry.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
It was directed by Stephen Frears and co-starred Daniel Day-Lewis as a young man in a relationship with the son of a Pakistani immigrant. Qureshi has since written other screenplays and novels, including The Buddha of Suburbia. His new memoir, called Shattered... begins in 2020 after a fall that injured his spinal cord, leaving him unable to move his arms or legs.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Thank you. And I wish you, among other things, comfort and freedom from pain. And that reminds me, are you in pain? People think that, well, if you're paralyzed, therefore you don't feel anything and you're spared from pain. But that's actually not true.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Well, you spoke about the fragility of life, and you've been narrating what that's like.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
It sounds like there'll be plenty of things to talk about in the future.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Hanif Qureshi's new memoir is called Shattered. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Aired. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, for Mardi Gras Day, we'll be joined by a Mardi Gras attraction, clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins. Known as Lady Louie, she's a fixture of the French Quarter in New Orleans.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
We'll talk with her about her decades-long career as a street performer, and she'll play some music. I hope you'll join us. ¦
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Thanks to Fatima Al-Kassab for her help in recording today's interview. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
You write about how it initially felt to feel disconnected from your body, to see your hand and not feel connected to your hand. You write, I had become divorced from myself. Would it be okay to ask you to describe what that felt like, that sense of disconnection from your own body?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
You started writing your memoir just days after the accident by dictating it. Was writing especially important to you? I know you're a writer. I know you're very dedicated to writing. Your life has centered around writing and family. But was it helpful to distance yourself from kind of removing yourself from what was happening so you could look at what was happening, examine it, and describe it?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
We've all experienced staying awake hours in the middle of the night, unable to sleep, and worrying about so many different things. Sometimes you obsess on one thing, sometimes on many things. For you, that was especially difficult. It's not like you could get up and get a snack or watch TV for a little while, read a book.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
He describes being unrecognizable to himself, disconnected from his body, totally dependent on others, feeling helpless and humiliated, dealing with rage, envying other people who could do even basic things like scratch and itch. While spending too much time on his back staring at the ceiling, he reflected on earlier periods of his life. He shares those reflections in his book.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Your partner, Isabella, spent every day during visiting hours in the hospital with you. And you were hospitalized for about a year. And one time when she was brushing your teeth and you felt like a helpless baby and a tyrant, two really conflicting, maybe not so conflicting. Can you describe both of those feelings?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
He spent a year in hospitals before he was able to return home with round-the-clock caregivers. He started writing the memoir just days after the accident by dictating to one of his sons. The book's narrative is occasionally interrupted by asides like, excuse me for a moment, I must have an enema now.
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
So they're paid to do this. That's their job. That's what they're trained to do. Do you feel guilty or embarrassed or humiliated when they're helping you?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
You once accused Isabella of going all Betty Davis on you, making it seem like she was the one being the tyrant. That's harsh. What brought that on?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Isabella asked you that if the tables were turned and she was lying in bed, unable to move, would you do for her as much as she'd been doing for you? And you write that you weren't sure. You weren't sure if you would. What made you doubt that?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
Qureshi is the son of a British mother and a father who emigrated from Pakistan in the late 1940s. Hanif Qureshi, welcome back to Fresh Air. We first spoke in 1990 on Fresh Air, and you've been on two times since then, so welcome back. How are you now? How much movement do you have?
Fresh Air
How A Writer's Life Changed In A Second
So in recalibrating your relationship, what are some of the changes that you made so that even though you were no longer physically equals and you were dependent and she was a caregiver, what were you able to change to restore things or to keep on track things that were special between you?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
You know, with hope and with optimism, it's sometimes hard to tell when hope and optimism are really more like denial and not helpful. And it seems to me that's one of the things you were grappling with.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
She is no stranger to writing about death and the importance of memory, whether it's the Let's start with a video that Wildman posted on Instagram when Orly was 12 in sixth grade, and Sarah interviewed her about what she was experiencing. It was 16 months after the initial diagnosis. She was in the middle of a second round of chemo and, as a result, was bald.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Wildman. She's a writer and editor in the opinion section of the New York Times, where she wrote a series of articles about being the mother of her daughter Orly, who had terminal cancer. We'll talk more after this short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Thank you. and the differences between how hospitals, hospice, and Judaism deal with the illness and death of a child compared to an adult. She described the expert medical care Orly received and the reluctance of some doctors and nurses to speak openly and realistically about what Orly was facing.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
She also wrote about the impact of Orly's ordeal and death on her younger daughter, Hana, who was nine when Orly died.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
When it was time for tough conversations about turning points in Orly's health care, including it's time for hospice because there's probably no cure, are those things you wanted to tell Orly yourself, or did you want the professionals, the doctors, the nurses, the hospice care people to tell her? Which did you think would be easier for her to digest?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
When you were wondering how much to try to talk with your daughter about the inevitability of death, Did you try to feel her out and see what is she ready to hear and what is she not ready to hear? Did you wait for her to bring it up instead of you bringing it up?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Parents want to protect their children, but how can you possibly protect your adolescent child from a terminal illness and inevitable death? My guest, Sarah Wildman, realized the inevitability after her older daughter, Orly, was enrolled in hospice. That was after three years of treatment for a rare form of liver cancer that had metastasized.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Wildman. She's a writer and editor in the opinion section of the New York Times, where she wrote a series of articles about being the mother of an adolescent with terminal cancer and what it was like at the end, three and a half years after the diagnosis. Her daughter, Orly, died in 2023 at the age of 14.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
I've read so much about how family members grow closer when they know a member of the family is dying. You make every minute count. You love each other more. But unless it's a sudden death or a few weeks before death, there's still plenty of time to get on each other's nerves and to argue. And you wrote that you still fought with Orly sometimes. What would you fight about?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
And I wonder how it would make you feel when you did fight about something.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
So, you know, Orly had her reasons to be angry at God. You had to, like, redefine for her and for you the meaning of God. What about your younger daughter, Hana, who was only nine when Orly died? And that was like three and a half years after her diagnosis. What did Hana make of this? And how did she interpret God? Or was she angry at God?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
You write about grieving and how the Jewish tradition is different when grieving for a parent than when grieving for a child. What is the difference?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Wildman. She's a writer and editor at the Opinion section of the New York Times, where she wrote a series of articles about being the mother of an adolescent with terminal cancer and what it was like at the end, three and a half years after the diagnosis. We'll be right back.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
This is Fresh Air. You continued to do your job at the New York Times writing and editing for the opinion section. Did you feel this sense of guilt and inadequacy in both places at home, feeling like you're not doing a job at work and at work, feeling like you're not home with Orly in the hours that she's not in school and in the days when she couldn't go to school?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
How did you handle that combination of having, you know, a stressful job and a stressful life at home that were both really time consuming?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
At the New York Times now, as an opinion editor, are you focusing on editing people who have endured trauma or who are currently suffering or who are in the middle of a war? I mean, for example, you worked with Rachel Goldberg, the mother of Hirsch Pollen Goldberg, who was abducted by Hamas on October 7th, and in the attack, one of his arms was blown off.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
He was used by Hamas in a hostage video, and he died in captivity. Was Orly why you wanted to work with Rachel? Did you initiate that?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
I have one last question for you, and that is, where are you now in the process of mourning your daughter who died in March of 2023?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Sarah Wildman, I'm really grateful that you spoke to us. Thank you for sharing everything that you did.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Sarah Wildman is a staff writer and editor for the New York Times Opinion section, where you can find her personal essays. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be Grammy-winning pop star and actress Ariana Grande. She's nominated for an Oscar for her role as Galinda in Wicked. She started acting on Broadway and TV when she was in her teens. I hope you'll join us.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, Follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Boldenato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
So that was Sarah Wildman interviewing her late daughter, Orly, when Orly was 12 and in sixth grade, going through her second round of chemo. Sarah Wildman, welcome to Fresh Air. You write so beautifully about your daughter and your family. Thank you for coming to our show. Why did you want to do that interview with your daughter?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Were you able to ask her questions because this was an interview that you wouldn't otherwise have asked her? Because it's a more formal situation that kind of begs for a serious conversation that reveals things. So I'm wondering if the interview format gave you a kind of safe space to ask things that would be uncomfortable to just bring up at dinner.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Early was 14 when she died in 2023. She endured several rounds of chemo, a liver transplant, two brain surgeries, and a tumor that pinched her spine, leaving her unable to walk. Wildman is a staff writer and editor for the opinion section of the New York Times, where she wrote several pieces during Early's illness and after her death.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
reflecting on what it was like to be a parent of a child facing mortality and the differences between how hospitals, hospice, and Judaism deal with illness and death of a child compared to an adult. She described the expert medical care Orly received and the reluctance of some doctors and nurses to speak openly and realistically about what Orly was facing.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Yeah, you describe in one of your pieces how sometimes when friends or neighbors would see you, they would just kind of break down into tears. How did that make you feel when friends saw you and just started to cry?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
You write about how doctors and nurses tend to treat children who have terminal illness or are at the end stage differently than they would treat an adult. What are some of the differences you observed?
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
She also wrote about the impact on her younger daughter, Hana, who was nine when Orly passed away. Several years before Orly's diagnosis, Wildman wrote the book Paper Love about her grandfather, who fled Austria after the Nazi invasion, and his girlfriend, who he left behind. No one in the family knew what happened to her, but the book describes how Wildman spent years tracking down the story.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
You know how you were saying that terminal is the kind of thing you have to hear over and over before you're capable of absorbing it because it's so catastrophic? I mean, you write that conversations about death were discouraged in and out of the doctor's office.
Fresh Air
Parenting A Child With Terminal Cancer
Maybe that's why, because they have to give you a small dose at a time before you're ready to hear and comprehend the full reality of it.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
And then there's the question, like, if you're not supposed to talk about sexually related subjects in class, when you're teaching a writing workshop, which is what you do, and you're encouraging people to write openly, and sex is a part of life, and sexual thinking is a huge part of young people's lives, Do you make that subject off-topic? Do you make that subject taboo for writing in class?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
How do you talk about it if it's not taboo for writing in class? Have you thought about that a lot?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
Sigrid Nunes, welcome to Fresh Air. I want to start with a reading from your novel, and this is from very early on when the main character has recently learned that her friend has committed suicide and is reflecting on, like, why.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
The story in The Friend, the narrator is a woman whose mentor from college who was close to her age became a dear friend and he has just committed suicide. She's left grieving and wondering why. And she also inherits his dog. And it's not just like any dog. It's 180-pound Great Dane. And she lives in a small rent-controlled apartment in New York.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
And it's illegal – it's against the regulations to have a dog in that apartment. So she – She kind of violates the regulations, takes the dog kind of reluctantly. And they become very close. And they're both grieving. The dog is grieving too. But as you've said, you can't describe death to a dog. You can't explain death to a dog.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
She walks the street with the dog. You know, she takes the dog on walks. Of course, you have to. Because the dog is so big, she feels like she's a spectacle when she's on the street with the dog. And everybody's like stopping and wanting to do a selfie or asking how much he eats or how much he defecates.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
And she's kind of, you know, I think she feels like partly her privacy is being invaded, but partly just like amused by the whole thing.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
But it connects to something larger that her friend who took his life used to say, which is that, you know, he used to like love to walk and felt like he did his best writing while he was walking and just kind of losing himself in his thoughts and in his surroundings. But he always thought that that would be harder for a woman to do because a woman always has to be on guard.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
Is this guy following me? Is this guy going to grope me? Is this guy going to attack me? What about that cat call? So I'm wondering if you thought about that from both directions, about the difficulties of sometimes losing yourself as a woman who has to be on guard when walking the streets and the difference when you have this huge dog who everybody wants to stop and admire when you're walking.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
I'm guilty of being one of the people who say, how much does the dog eat? I could probably ride the dog because I literally could probably ride the dog. I mean, I'm so short. I could really probably do it. Yeah. I know people who won't get a pet after their beloved pet has died because they feel like they can't go through that grieving process again.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
And it reminds me of people who won't remarry because they can't bear the thought of losing a second spouse.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
Yeah. You never really know, do you, what the cat or dog is thinking about whether it's time to end their life.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
I spoke with you in 1996. Yes. And one of the things you said is, I've never been married and I'm not going to marry. And I said, how can you be so certain? And you said, well, there isn't anything I could have from a marriage that I don't really have. Do you still feel that way?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
I think it was in your first book that you wrote, time and time again, I discover that I have not completely let go of the notion that salvation will come in the form of a man. That's true, too. Do you still feel that way?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
Okay. Have you thought about the difference of being single in the latter part of your 60s where you are now compared to being single when you're younger?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
Okay, then the thought comes up, what about when you get older, if you're single then, and your health fails or something?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
Did people used to warn you, if you don't have children, you'll regret it when you're older?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
So is that a tradeoff you feel like you willingly made or do you have any regrets about the choice that you made?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
That was Sigrid Nunes reading from her novel, The Friend. So this novel has a lot to do with suicide and trying to understand why somebody did it. Have you lost someone to suicide?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
How did that person take their life?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
And what did it make you think about thinking of the way that person chose to end it?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
It must hurt for you to think about that.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
When a friend of yours talks about the temptation of suicide, what do you say? Do you try to talk them out of it? Do you try to just listen?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
Another issue that your novel deals with is relationships between professors and students, specifically between male professors and female students and the attraction that can form between them. The main character is a woman, and the character who kills himself, her very dear friend, had been her college professor years ago.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
And they even had a brief affair after he told her they should try sleeping together because he said, we should find that out about each other. And she says, I don't think it ever occurred to either of us that I might refuse. And then he tells her that, well, it's not really going to work out. And she's kind of devastated, but they remain good friends. He marries three times.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
They remain good friends throughout all those marriages. She's never quite sure what the wives feel about their relationship. And he tells her to be a teacher is to be a seducer. And there are times when he must also be a heartbreaker. Have you heard men say that about teaching, that to be a teacher is to be a seducer?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
I have certainly heard that. It strikes me as such a male thing. I don't think women teachers, women professors see themselves that way, unless you're talking about seducing people into learning. But I don't think women teachers see themselves as... Wanting to flirt and maybe go to bed with their students.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
I'm not saying all men do either, but I think it's over the years been a more common thing for men than for women.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
It was a huge part of her personality. Seductive in the literal sense of like I'm going to try to convince you to sleep with me or just seductive at a distance. Yeah.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
I was going to say, just to put that in context, when you were in your 20s, I think, you were a couple with David Reif, Susan Sontag's son. She, at the time, was diagnosed with cancer. You were both living with Susan Sontag. She became a friend and mentor to you, and you got to see her at her best and her worst. Yes. Okay. Have you ever felt like a seducer as a teacher yourself?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
Because you've taught in different settings. I mean, you've taught literature and writing in colleges. You've taught English as a second language. And you've taught over the years. So you've seen issues about power in the classroom change over the years.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
What do you think would have been different?
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
As you said, you've seen the rules of conduct in the classroom change. It's against the guidelines in most places now to have a relationship with a student, you know, a sexual relationship with a student. And you've also said you know everything. In the past, marriages that have worked out really well between a professor and the student.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
And the one I think of immediately is poet Donald Hall and poet Jane Kenyon. And she was first his student, and then they had a long marriage.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
But probably the more common thing is closer to inappropriate. Do you know what I mean? Like there have been some great marriages and relationships that have come out of that and some also like real damage and inappropriate things. How have you seen the rules change? Like your character has to attend sexual misconduct events. classes and learn what the new rules were.
Fresh Air
After A Friend's Suicide, A Writer Inherits His Grieving Dog
So how have you seen the new rules change and how have you reacted to it as a woman?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
You made the film while Biden was president in between Trump's two terms. What's it like watching his second term after having played him?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Playing him, I'm sure you had to be him and see things from his point of view, which requires you, the actor, to have empathy for Trump, the character that you're portraying.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Jeremy Strong, welcome to Fresh Air. I love the film. And that scene has so much energy to it. You have such swagger in it.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Oh, it is totally my pleasure. You know, a biopic is different from a film based on an original story. So you had a character who was a known person who you had to portray. What did you do to know, to watch, to listen to him before playing him?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Did you ever fact check any of it? Like, do you feel a responsibility to not only be have acting truth, but have, you know, like fact truth?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
And I should mention here that the film was written by Gabriel Sherman, who is a journalist who wrote a book about Murdoch and Fox News.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Right. Well, that's that's the thing. Like, I feel like your recent career is so connected to Trump.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
What I want to know is, do you feel very adjacent to Trump like that? You know, Trump, because your characters have been so, you know, related to Trump in one way or another and very directly related in The Apprentice.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Because I was going to ask you if you notate your scripts as if they were music. Because like in the scene that we just heard, there's real music in your voice. You've got a rhythm.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Well, why don't we listen to the real Roy Cohn's voice? This is from an interview with Tom Snyder on his late night show Tomorrow.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
So what was it like playing somebody who you find is despicable, too strong a word?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Sebastian Stan, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I think you're great.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
So after choosing that clip, first of all, I should say some listeners were probably thinking he doesn't sound like Trump. What would you say to that?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
After choosing that clip, I read that you improvised some of that scene.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
And I would bet that the Queen Mother did not go to Hair or Rocky Horror.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
You know, like so many other of your fans, I first saw you in the Rocky Horror Picture Show in the 70s. And when you see somebody in a movie for the first time, it's sometimes hard to tell how good they are. You don't know, is this all they can do? Do they do other things too? Is this what they're really like? Right. How much are they acting?
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
And so I saw you, I guess it was probably like the late 80s, in Wiseguy, the TV series.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
And you played a kind of Phil Spector-ish, brilliant but crazy record producer.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
And a great, really terrific performance. And I think that's when I really got the picture. Wow, he's really good at doing all kinds of things. Yeah.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
Did you like the kind of cheap horror films that it in part parodied?
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
That's funny. You'd be wearing it for like this transgressive playwright, Jeanne, and then this parody of everything Rocky Horror.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
Well, there's probably nothing that can get you into character quickly like black bikini briefs, fishnet stockings, the garter belt, the corset, the whole thing.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
So how did the whole thing... It was a bit of a shock, actually. ...how did it all evolve then?
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
I think the thing I found most amazing about the whole phenomenon of Rocky Horror was watching, like, the 12-year-olds outside the theater parading around in their transvestite clothes. Because they were all, it was just like all these 12-year-olds outside the theater imitating you in your getup. And you had to just kind of ask yourself, what is going on here? What do the 12-year-olds make of it?
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
I mean, are they going through some kind of gender thing? Or do they just love the movie? Like, what is this about?
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
Did you ever go to one of the midnight screenings back in the 70s and watch the movie with the people who were reciting along? And when they would make a toast on screen, people would throw toast at the screen. The whole bit. It became an incredibly participatory experience for the people who came to see it time and time again. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
And I love the fact that he questions his faith, but constantly stays with it. And that it's okay to question it. Like, if your belief is deep enough, it's okay to challenge it and question it and remain committed. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Did any priests give you feedback on your role in Fleabag?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
I want to ask you about your recent film, All of Us Strangers, in which you play a screenwriter in London living in a new high-rise building, and there's only one other unit that seems to have anyone living in it. So it's this shiny and eerily empty new building. The other resident, played by Paul Meskel, turns out to be gay, like your character, and you develop an intimate relationship.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
At the same time, you return to the town where you were raised and the people who you meet there... are your parents, but we, the audience, don't know that immediately because they're the same age you are. Once we realize, wait, that's his parents, I was thinking, this is terrible casting. The parents are the same age as the son. What went wrong here?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
But then you realize the parents were in a car accident when your character was 11 years old, and you've gone back either in your mind or physically to talking with them and trying to bridge the gap of the man you've become, the screenwriter, the man who is gay with the child who they knew and all the things you couldn't tell them and couldn't talk about then and are just dying to tell them now.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Having the conversations you always wished you'd had had they been alive. Are your parents still alive?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Oh, I'm so sorry. I was going to ask you, and I'm not sure if this is anything you'd care to talk about knowing now what I know. If you, as you were playing that, wanted to have conversations with your parents that you never had, and now I'm hoping that you had the conversations.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
All right. One of the things about playing this role, it's one of the films in which you show your ability to be silent and still convey a lot. I timed it. There's about 14 minutes where the camera is mostly on you and on your face or you're walking and you don't say a word for like 14 minutes.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
One of my favorite lines in the movie is actually said by Paul Maskell, who says, I was a fat kid. And when you're fat, people don't ask why you don't have a girlfriend. And I thought like, oh, that gets you so much.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
I think you first became known in the U.S. in Sherlock, the BBC series that played in the U.S. as well, with Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock Holmes and you as his nemesis, Moriarty. So I want to play a scene from season one. And this is the first scene where Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty meet face to face.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
And Moriarty has lured Sherlock to rescue his friend Watson, who's been outfitted with an explosive vest. So Sherlock is pointing a gun at you during this entire exchange. And your character, Moriarty, speaks first.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
No, you won't. So you play Moriarty, big and smirky, sinister and funny. What was your audition like?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Were you able to tap into a place in yourself that you thought could scare people?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Yeah, yeah. I want to move on to Hamlet. You got an Olivier Award, I think, right, for your portrayal?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Well, anyways, you were acclaimed. Yeah. People liked it. So you've spoken about how you wanted to make the language understandable so often, especially for Americans who sometimes have to work hard just to grasp a British accent when spoken quickly or spoken with a regional British accent. And of course, so much of the language in Shakespeare is language that we no longer use. It's archaic.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
But you really wanted to make every word understandable. So I went on YouTube to see if I could find anything. And I found you doing part of the to be or not to be soliloquy, which is, of course, the most famous part. And it was so interesting because, you know, Hamlet is really like thinking through like, should I live or should I end my life? I don't know.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
And what's the worst that can happen if I die? What would that be like? And, of course, he's using very elevated poetic language to say all of that. But you say it like really slowly. There are so many like long pauses in between, for instance, to be, long pause, or not to be. And on the one hand, I felt like, wow, that's a lot of pauses.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
And on the other hand, I felt like, well, every word is ringing out. And I'm kind of hearing things I hadn't heard before. So can you describe your thoughts about those pauses and why you took them and where you took them?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Andrew Scott, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. And, you know, your face changes from role to role. Can you pass unrecognized on the street?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Right, sometimes. Do you use any kind of disguise?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Well, congratulations on Ripley, and thank you so much for being with us.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
It's not that. Andrew Scott, welcome to Fresh Air. You are so terrific. It's a pleasure to have you on the show again.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
What did you need to know about the mind of Tom Ripley to play him? I mean, is he desperate for money? Is he a sociopath? Do you have to think about what his motivation is?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
You mean from the previous film adaptation or from the book?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Your eyes are so interesting in this series because sometimes they're, you know, a little comical or but sometimes they are and sometimes they're kind of threatening and other times they're just blank. Like there's nothing going on. Yeah. Like they're dead and there's nothing going on behind them. And it strikes me that that must be hard to achieve since you're not dead inside. Yes.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
You have a conscience. Can you talk a little bit about going into that dead inside blank state?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
So you're playing Tom Ripley, somebody who's hiding his real identity and assuming the identity of others. So he's always hiding who he is. You must identify with that and why as an actor because you're always playing somebody else. But also Patricia Highsmith, who wrote the novel that Ripley is adapted from.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
She was a lesbian and had to hide that because when she was writing, like, you couldn't be out. There's no way. And you grew up in Dublin. And I think you were alive when homosexuality was against the law. So, like, she knew stuff about hiding. You knew stuff about hiding, you know, your identity. Or you knew people who probably had to hide their identity somewhere.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
So do you feel that sense of hiddenness in the portrayal?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Yeah, definitely. It seems like he's definitely secretive to himself.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
The film is shot in black and white and it's really exquisite. Like every shot could be a beautiful still photograph if you just stopped it and look at the frame. And I'm wondering what it was like to shoot that way because just setting up the lighting and the composition, it's so carefully and artfully done. So did that mean a lot of time waiting for you? It absolutely did.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
And did you have to be aware of exactly how the lighting was so the shadows would fall exactly right?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
So you may be tired of talking about your role in Fleabag as a priest. No, not at all. As a priest torn between your commitment to the priesthood and your love for the main character, the woman nicknamed Fleabag, torn between your commitment to celibacy and your own sexual desire. And, you know, it stars Phoebe Waller-Bridge, who also created and wrote it.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
And she plays a single woman who really loves sex and has had a lot of partners, but isn't really in love until she meets you. And you're a priest who performs the ceremony for Fleabag's father's second marriage. She falls in love with you. You're drawn to her. But you're a priest. You become good friends. And she started to hope that you'll leave the priesthood and be with her.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
And I want to play a scene in which she's visiting you at the parish in the evening. And the scene starts inside and then moves outside. So we just did a bit of editing to edit together those two parts of the scene. So let's hear that. Phoebe Waller-Bridge as Fleabag speaks first.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
That's Phoebe Waller-Bridge and my guest, Andrew Scott. That's such a great role and such a great performance. Did you ever know a young priest as attractive as you were?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Well, wait, let's not avoid the question here. We'll take out the comparison to you so you don't have to worry about being humble here. But did you ever know a young, very attractive priest?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Right. You were raised Catholic in Dublin. What was the role of the church in your life?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
Were you really angry with the church for having so many hypocrites in positions of religious power? You talk about the priests who were accused of sexual abuse and infidelity and entering other people's marriages. And, you know, you're gay. I don't know how old you are when you realize that, maybe all your life.
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
But like I said, in the Republic of Ireland, being gay was against the law until I think 1993. I think that's when it was repealed. And the church condemned it. And yet you have these priests, you know, abusing boys and having affairs with women and men probably. So how did you fit all these complicated feelings into your character of the priest in Fleabag?
Fresh Air
Andrew Scott Doesn't See Ripley As A Monster
And it's a comedic role, too, as we could hear from the scene, the scene that we played. And he's wrestling with the natural sexual desire that people have and love. Yeah, physical expressions of love too.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Bonnie Raitt is my guest, and we've asked her to bring with her some of her favorite recordings from the past, recordings that have really influenced her over the years. And, Bonnie Raitt, the next album, the next recording that you brought with you is B.B. King, and this one goes back to 1958. Rock Me Baby, tell me why you chose this one.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Bonnie Raitt, welcome to Fresh Air. Hi, Terry. It's a pleasure to be here. You've brought with you some of your favorite recordings, some of the recordings that have really influenced you over the years. So I'd like to start with a recording that you brought by Mississippi Fred McDowell. Write me a few lines. Tell me why you've chosen this. This was recorded in 1964.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Let's hear it. Rock Me Baby, B.B. King, recorded in 1958 and reissued on the B.B. King box set.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Bonnie Wright, do you think that there's a specific influence B.B. King has had on your singing or guitar playing?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
I'm interested if it took you a long time in your career to feel comfortable recording something like this, recording outside of the genre that you're known for.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
That's Bonnie Raitt and her father, John Raitt. Well, I want to end with something from your Road Tested album. And this is I Can't Make You Love Me. It's a really beautiful ballad, very moving. Is this a favorite of yours, too?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
That's Mississippi Fred McDowell, one of the records that Bunny Raitt has brought with her today for us to listen to. Now, what was it like when you were actually traveling with him and opening for him? I mean, was that one of the first times that you met one of the blues musicians who you liked so much from record?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
So you played this kind of little trick and he did improv on, or whatever, on film for you. What did he bring to that audition that he didn't realize was an audition?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer Family Foundation, supporting WHYY's Fresh Air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
I worked at it pretty hard there in the early days. Were you overwhelmed when you were 20 by the incredible differences between, you know, in age, race, gender, class, between you and the older blues musicians who you were understudying?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Now, on your latest album, your live album, you do a tribute to Fred McDowell. You play part of Write Me a Few of Your Lines, which we just heard. This is your Kokomo medley. Did you learn things from Fred McDowell on your guitar playing or your approach to song that you're still using today that you could describe for us?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Well, let's hear your tribute to Fred McDowell, the Kokomo medley from your latest album, Road Tested.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
That's Bonnie Raitt. Bonnie Raitt is my guest. Now, did he show you that opening riff?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Now, I know when you were starting out, you were listening to folk music as well as to blues. Now, women's voices in folk music at the time were kind of like clear, bell-like soprano voices. I'm thinking of Joan Baez, Judy Collins. And in blues, of course, it's a much kind of rougher genre.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
uh voice that that uh blues singers use and i was wondering if you you have a beautiful clear voice i was wondering if you try to also develop a gruffer voice for the oh yeah i mean i thought if i just drank jim beam and hung out with those guys and stayed up too late and i i couldn't stand the way i sounded when i was
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
You know, when you started on the road and you were opening for a lot of older blues performers, you said that you had to kind of care for the alcohol for them, make sure they drank enough to get on stage, but not too much.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
No, I was just going to ask you about that period and what it was like to realize that with some of the musicians they needed to drink, but you had to make sure they didn't drink too much.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Bonnie Raitt, the next record you've brought with you is by Sippy Wallace, and your fans all know that you've recorded a couple of her songs, You Gotta Know How, Women Be Wise. Tell us about the record you've brought with you and why you've chosen it.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Well, why don't we hear that 1966 recording that you brought with you? And this is re-released on Alligator Records, Sippy Wallace.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
It just makes me smile so much to hear this again. Did Sippy Wallace give you any interesting advice about life or music?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Can you describe the creation of the Roseanne, Roseanna Dana character?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
What's your system of pushing for something when you're arguing with a censor or with a producer about your material? Do you make a strong case about why it's really not in bad taste? Explain what the joke is?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
But let me just ask you, when a sketch of yours is killed, either before it airs or in this case it was killed. That was very unusual. It was killed for the rerun.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
What do you do? I mean, do you just accept it or do you go in and make a big argument about it?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
You started on Saturday Night Live, the first season it was on, and you've been in and out of the show several times, right?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
First show this season that I saw you on Saturday Night Live, you had revived the Al Franken decade.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
How did you come up with the kind of whiny voice that you use for the character?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
I think that's one of the things I really love about the character is that you do kind of have it both ways. You know, it's like really funny and you're really mocking the character. And at the same time, you could tell you have a real kind of affection and caring for him too.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
How do you deal with some of the language of the recovery movement, which you mock a lot, but also probably have some respect for, too? Like Stuart's always saying, you know... Well, this isn't my best show, but that's okay. So there's all this affirmation in the language.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Now tell me your reaction to this aspect of the recovery movement, the people who say humor is a good recovery tool.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
There are some people in the recovery movement who really do believe that humor is good therapy. So although they are humorless themselves, they have taught themselves like little jokes and little ways to be humorous. And they're very proud of it. And it's kind of like prescription for their health. Do you come across people like that? And I wonder how you react to them and how they react to you.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
What were the first records you bought, can you remember?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
One of my favorite sketches of the ones that you've done on Saturday Night Live was Harry Haneke.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Were there any jokers in your family? Did you have a father who'd sit around the dinner table and tell jokes?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
So he really had a twin brother, Howard?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
So what was in your parents' record collection and what did they listen to? And how did that affect what you liked or didn't like?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Now, I read about you that you had a pretty strict Catholic upbringing, that you went to Catholic school. Seminary. Seminary. Wow, okay. So you're growing up in Canada. You're going to a seminary and listening to blues and rock and roll and rhythm and blues.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Okay, that's where I'm heading. Long before you became part of the Blues Brothers and you developed this kind of alter ego for yourself, did you have a pose when you were in high school? Did you want to be black? Did you want to be a blues musician? Did you want to be somebody who you weren't and kind of take on that pose in real life? Sure.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Did you sing then? I know you played drums.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
How did you and Belushi start the whole Blues Brothers routine?
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Wow. So you were doing the real thing before you did the parodies.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Let me ask about one of the parody commercials you did, and this is a terrific video compilation of some of your best sketches from Saturday Night Live. And this is the one for the bass-o-matic. It's like a blender that turns fish into a delicious shake.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Tell me how you came up with this and if it relates to a real ad that you ever did.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Well, let's hear Dan Aykroyd advertising the Basimetic on Saturday Night Live.
Fresh Air
'SNL' Turns 50: Aykroyd, Franken, Zweibel & Lovitz
Mm-hmm. So you co-created the Emily Littella character with her?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
And were you comfortable singing in an operatic style or did it not matter which style you sang in as long as you did the singing?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
And were you comfortable singing in an operatic style or did it not matter which style you sang in as long as you did the singing?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Can you give us an example of how you learned to open up your voice?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Can you give us an example of how you learned to open up your voice?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Your mother who raised you came from Nigeria. What were her dreams?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Your mother who raised you came from Nigeria. What were her dreams?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Was it reassuring to you to have a mother who knew what to do if something went wrong?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Was it reassuring to you to have a mother who knew what to do if something went wrong?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Your parents separated, I think, when you were pretty young. And by the time you were 16, your father told you and your sister that he was done. Well, yeah, he told me.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Your parents separated, I think, when you were pretty young. And by the time you were 16, your father told you and your sister that he was done. Well, yeah, he told me.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
And did you think that there was something about you that made him leave? Or did you think like he's being mean and thoughtless and doing this and that's on him, not on me?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
And did you think that there was something about you that made him leave? Or did you think like he's being mean and thoughtless and doing this and that's on him, not on me?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I want to play another song from your new album, and this is called The Good. Do you want to say something about what you were thinking about when you wrote it?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I want to play another song from your new album, and this is called The Good. The Good. Do you want to say something about what you were thinking about when you wrote it?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Well, let's hear the song. This is The Good from Cynthia Erivo's new album, Chapter 1, Verse 1.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Well, let's hear the song. This is The Good from Cynthia Erivo's new album, Chapter 1, Verse 1.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
That's Cynthia Erivo from her new album, Chapter One, Verse One. So this is kind of a personal question in terms of that it has personal meaning for me. So you're five foot one. Harriet Tubman, who you portrayed, was even shorter. And I'm not quite five feet. So as a short person, I'm wondering if you think it's had much of an impact on your life or your career to be short.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
That's Cynthia Erivo from her new album, Chapter One, Verse One. So this is kind of a personal question in terms of that it has personal meaning for me. So you're five foot one. Harriet Tubman, who you portrayed, was even shorter. And I'm not quite five feet. So as a short person, I'm wondering if you think it's had much of an impact on your life or your career to be short.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
What about chairs? Do you find it's hard to find a chair that fits? Yes, like chairs that are high enough to get to tables and stuff. Well, you know, chairs are like too deep and often too high.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
What about chairs? Do you find it's hard to find a chair that fits? Yes, like chairs that are high enough to get to tables and stuff. Well, you know, chairs are like too deep and often too high.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
If the stool's too high, you have to kind of shimmy onto it. Shimmy onto it, yeah. Because you can't reach that high. Your behind doesn't reach that high. It's like making little jumps to get there. And then slide down. Oh, my goodness. Cynthia Erivo, it's been so delightful to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. And just thank you for your work.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
And if the stool's too high, you have to kind of shimmy onto it. Shimmy onto it, yeah. Because you can't reach that high. Your behind doesn't reach that high. It's like making little jumps to get there. And then slide down.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Oh, my goodness. Cynthia Erivo, it's been so delightful to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. And just thank you for your work. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
That's Cynthia Erivo from the miniseries Genius Aretha. Cynthia Erivo, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. How did you start listening to Aretha Franklin?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
That's Cynthia Erivo from the miniseries Genius Aretha. Cynthia Erivo, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. How did you start listening to Aretha Franklin?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Coming up, we hear some new Christmas songs. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I know you've said that when you were listening to Aretha before playing her, that one of the things you were listening for is where did she breathe?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I know you've said that when you were listening to Aretha before playing her, that one of the things you were listening for is where did she breathe?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You get the impression that it's more far away. Exactly. The way you sang it. Exactly. But I'll tell you, it was beautiful both ways.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You get the impression that it's more far away. Exactly. The way you sang it. Exactly. But I'll tell you, it was beautiful both ways.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You met her twice, backstage at the Color Purple and at the Kennedy Center. Did you feel like you were able to have a meaningful conversation with her? I think sometimes, like when you meet somebody who's so important to you, you just don't know what to say.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You met her twice, backstage at the Color Purple and at the Kennedy Center. Did you feel like you were able to have a meaningful conversation with her? I think sometimes, like when you meet somebody who's so important to you, you just don't know what to say.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
She was brought up in the church and she was brought up singing gospel in the church on tours through the South and in her father's church. And so when she started singing R&B, it was so church influenced. And I'm wondering about if you grew up church at all in England and if so, what the music was like.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
She was brought up in the church and she was brought up singing gospel in the church on tours through the South and in her father's church. And so when she started singing R&B, it was so church influenced. And I'm wondering about if you grew up church at all in England and if so, what the music was like.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Was the objection to the gospel music the lyrics of the song or the style of singing? I think it's the style of singing.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Was the objection to the gospel music the lyrics of the song or the style of singing?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Yeah. You went to RADA, which is the Rural Academy of Dramatic Arts in England. Very famous school. You didn't know it existed when you were invited to apply for it. I did not. Was it revelatory once you got there to study acting in such a formal and probably traditional way?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Yeah. You went to RADA, which is the Rural Academy of Dramatic Arts in England. Very famous school. You didn't know it existed when you were invited to apply for it. I did not. Was it revelatory once you got there to study acting in such a formal and probably traditional way?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You know, when you were talking about Aretha, you talked about the importance of where you breathe and how it can even change the meaning of a phrase. So when you were learning Sondheim songs, And I think breath is really especially important in those songs in terms of the meaning, but in some of the songs in terms of having an opportunity to breathe.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
You know, when you were talking about Aretha, you talked about the importance of where you breathe and how it can even change the meaning of a phrase. So when you were learning Sondheim songs, And I think breath is really especially important in those songs in terms of the meaning, but in some of the songs in terms of having an opportunity to breathe.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Because some of the songs, there isn't a lot of opportunity. And those songs are really rangy, you know, so your breath support would be really important. Is there a song you especially loved when you started singing Sondheim?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Because some of the songs, there isn't a lot of opportunity. And those songs are really rangy, you know, so your breath support would be really important. Is there a song you especially loved when you started singing Sondheim?
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I have. I've seen you sing it on YouTube, so if anybody wants to see it, it's there.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
I have. I've seen you sing it on YouTube, so if anybody wants to see it, it's there.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Yeah, thank you. How did you figure out where to breathe? Did you get advice on that? Did it seem natural? I got advice.
Fresh Air
Cynthia Erivo Sings With 'A Bit Of A Smile'
Yeah, thank you. How did you figure out where to breathe? Did you get advice on that? Did it seem natural? I got advice.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Oh, you're so good in that. What do you think about when you hear that back?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Did it say in the script, get louder every time you say, put your brother on, or was that something you just figured out you should do?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
You were so good in that scene, they brought you back for another season. That was the second season that you won an Emmy for that role. So you grew up in Seattle, right, where Frasier was set. How did you get interested in acting?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
When you were getting started, what were some of your day jobs?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
You were able to make a living acting right from the start?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Did you go through any fallow periods where you thought, I'm never going to get a role again?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Okay, that scene was set at a fraternity party on the campus. Hannah Einbinder, welcome to Fresh Air. How did you get the part on Hacks with no previous acting experience? You've done sketch comedy. You did a great set on the Stephen Colbert show right before the pandemic lockdown. So how did you pull that off? Well...
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
You punched up the script you were given?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
What was the scene that you were given to audition, and did they keep the jokes that you wrote in the actual TV series?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
It's the son of the person who was originally Jean Smart's agent. Yes. The older agent died. His son represents your character and Smart's character. And he kind of finagles things to get you to go to Gene Smart's house to audition. But he never tells Gene Smart that. So things could get off to a terrible start. Yes.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
And I think I— Because you're talking about the effort you went to to get here, and now she's just rejecting you without even talking to you yet. Yeah.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Did you learn a lot about acting by working with Jean Smart?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Was it mostly by example or did she give you actual tips?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
So, you know, your mother is Lorraine Newman, one of the original cast members of Saturday Night Live. When you were growing up, was being funny something that was really prized or rewarded by your parents?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Do you feel like you learned how to take something really awful that happened to you and tell a funny story about it? Like turn like bad things into comedy? Yeah.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Jean Smart, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You're terrific in this as you've been. Thank you. Yeah, for so long. So, you know, you've done a lot of comedy, but this is the first time you've played a comic. Do you have any favorite jokes of the bad jokes that your character tells? Because they're both funny and bad at the same time.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Are there things you're related to about the generational conflict in this? Because the young comic who starts writing for your character thinks of herself as so cutting edge and a little transgressive. And she really has kind of contempt for your character because it represents everything that the younger comic doesn't want to be.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
You've played like brassy, cynical, sarcastic women in comedies and in dramas. In Entertainment Weekly, you were described as the reigning Meryl Streep of tough broad types. So I want to play an example of that. And this is from your role in Fargo when you played the matriarch of a crime family that controls Fargo. And you've taken over from your husband after he had a debilitating stroke.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Meanwhile, the Kansas City Mafia made an offer to take over your operation. And in this scene, you meet the gangster representing the Kansas City family. And you make a counteroffer, an offer for a partnership between their family and your crime family. So in this scene, you're laying out the terms of your deal and then warn him not to underestimate you.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
And the mobster from Kansas City is played by Brad Garrett. You speak first.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
You must have loved that speech when you read it.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
So I read that initially when you got the part and the wardrobe came out and the hairdresser came out that you looked at yourself in the mirror and you actually burst into tears. What was the problem? What were you seeing in the mirror?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Kate Winslet plays Mayor Sheehan, who's a police detective trying to solve a murder. But there's a lot going on in her personal life. Her son died by suicide. leaving behind his young son, who Mare is raising because the boy's mother has been in rehab. You're Mare's mother, and you've moved in with Mare to help her raise the grandson, your great-grandson.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
But you and Mare are afraid that you're about to lose custody because the boy's mother is getting out of rehab. You've been trying to prepare him for the likelihood he'll be returning to his mother. And that's made Mare very angry with you because she wants to keep custody. And let's hear a clip in which she's showing how angry she is that you're trying to prepare him to go back to his mother.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Wow, you're really good in this. How did you get the part?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
So Mayor of Easttown is set in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, just outside of Philadelphia. And Delaware County has some pretty wealthy neighborhoods and some working class suburbs. You probably saw this or at least heard about it, that Saturday Night Live did a parody of the accents. Did you see it of the accents on Mayor of Easttown? Kate said it to me. Yeah.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
And she's the one who got the brunt of the satire in this. And the premise of the show is that instead of saying murder and daughter because of the perhaps overly exaggerated Philadelphia accents, it's like murder and daughter. Yeah, you do it. You do it. Yeah.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
So did you have like an accent coach?
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
So I'm going to squeeze in one more clip. This is from Frasier. This is the role that you won two Emmys for. And you're hilarious in this. So for people who don't know, this had come Frasier. Frasier is a psychiatrist who has a radio advice call-in show. And you played Lana Lindley, who was one of the most popular and pretty girls in high school. And Frasier had a crush on you.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
And now years later, you run into each other at a cafe and you're a fan of his radio show. You hit it off and you end up spending the night together. And this is like Frazier's high school dream come true. And in the morning, you wake up in his bed. You still have a glass of wine on the night table next to you, which you use in the scene I'm about to play to swallow some pills later in the scene.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
You'll hear a reference to that, but you won't be able to see it. And so you wake up in the morning together. Things are still dreamy between the two of you until, okay, here is the scene. You speak first.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Is the song Boots of Spanish Leather written about your leaving for Italy?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
And the experience he was going through was the experience of missing you?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
So the fiction is that you weren't in Spain, you were in Italy, and did he ever ask for boots of Spanish leather? No.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Well, here's the song we've been talking about, Boots of Spanish Leather.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Suze Rodolo, welcome to Fresh Air and thanks for being here. Thank you. You met Dylan at a marathon folk concert at the Riverside Church in New York in 1961. He wasn't well known yet. He'd only recently arrived in Greenwich Village. You'd already been living there. What attracted you to him then? What did you know of him when you first started seeing him?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
After about eight months in Perugia, you came back to Greenwich Village, and you write that during your absence, he suffered in public. You didn't get a friendly reception when you returned.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
A lot of people you say thought that you'd been cold and indifferent to someone who loved you, and that some people, some of the folk singers deliberately sang songs that Dylan had written about his heartache, as well as any ballad that pointed a finger at a cruel lover when you were around. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
And you say it was as if every letter Bob had written to me and every phone call he had made had been performed in a theater in front of an audience. What do you mean by that?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Well, you moved back to Greenwich Village and you got together, but then you eventually moved out of the apartment that you shared with Dylan. What was the breaking point for you?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Did you feel like you were always competing for his attention with other women who wanted it?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Men could, you know. This might be too personal, so if it is, you just let me know. When Dylan started seeing Joan Baez, and there was such a public interest in their relationship because they were both famous singers, what was that like for you?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Do people still recognize you from the Freewheeling album? I look exactly the same, Terry. Yeah. Don't we all?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
But, you know, it doesn't mean you're not recognizable.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. Good luck with your memoir. Thank you. It's been a pleasure to speak to you.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
When did you start moving your repertoire toward more contemporary and political songs?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
You've, during your career, sung a lot of songs by Bob Dylan, who was your good friend and for a short time your lover. How did you meet?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Well, you were more established than he was at the time, and you took him on an American tour that you were doing and used to introduce him. Yes.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Well, that really helped him get known. And then shortly thereafter, he went on an English tour and took you with him, except he didn't share the spotlight with you the way you had shared it with him.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
In Dylan's biographical book, Chronicles Volume 1, he writes about you in the end of the book. And I want to read some of the things he says about you. He says,
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Let's talk about this effect on you when you were touring England with him and weren't getting called onto stage and weren't sharing the spotlight with him. How did it affect you emotionally?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
You know, one thing that strikes me about your early career is that it was a combination of selflessness and ego. I guess you seemed on stage like a very selfless person who was pouring out her heart for the larger good, And yet you get so fed by audiences that you become very ego-involved with that attention.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
cupid's arrow had whistled by my ears before but this time it hit me in the heart and the weight of it dragged me overboard susie was seventeen years old from the east coast had grown up in queens raised in a left-wing family her father had worked in a factory and had recently died
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Well, in the 1960s, you met Bob Dylan through Dylan's record producer of the time, Tom Wilson. And this was in what year about? 1965. 1965. And Tom Wilson had just cut Dylan's first electric single, Subterranean Homesick Blues. And he invited you to watch Dylan at a session. And you were determined, you say, to do more than watch. You wanted to actually play on it.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
The session turned out to be the session for Highway 61 Revisited in which Like a Rolling Stone was recorded. And you played Hammond B3 on Like a Rolling Stone. How did you get to play on it?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
She was involved in the New York art scene, painted and made drawings for various publications, worked in graphic design and in off-Broadway theatrical productions, also worked on civil rights committees. She could do a lot of things. Meeting her was like stepping into the tales of a thousand and one Arabian nights.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
When you had told Tom Wilson that you had a part worked out in your head, did you really laugh?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Okay, so then what happened? They start performing the song.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
And then he compares you to a Rodin sculpture come to life and says, she reminded me of a libertine heroine. She was just my type. How does that description sound to you? Do you hear yourself in that description?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
My guest Al Cooper featured on Oregon. Al Cooper, were you surprised at the impact that Oregon Line had on pop music?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Now, the record that you first made with Dylan, you started in a longer relationship with him, playing with him. And you played with him at the Newport Festival, his first electric concert. And it's a concert that's famous because Dylan got booed. And in your memoir, you kind of have a different interpretation of why he was getting booed. The standard interpretation is because he had electric.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
the audience was really angry and thought that he'd sold out, etc., and they were booing him. What's your explanation?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Weren't they booing during the performance, too, though?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Everyone knows now that Bob Dylan was born Robert Zimmerman and he grew up in Minnesota. What did he tell you about his past when you met him?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
There are other things he told you about his past, that he was abandoned at a young age in New Mexico and went to live with a traveling circus.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
So how did you find out that his last name was actually Zimmerman?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Now, you said that, you know, just as he didn't want to be too forthcoming about his upbringing and his family, you felt the same way, too. But you were from Queens, New York, and your parents were both communists. And you had to grow up with some secrecy because you grew up during the McCarthy era.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Couldn't very well go around talking about your communist parents. No, I couldn't until 1989.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
You write about how Dylan had to develop and present an image to the outside world. And you write, much time was spent in front of the mirror trying on one wrinkled article of clothing after another until it all came together to look as if Bob had just gotten up and thrown something on. Image was all.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
I found it so amusing to read that, to think that, you know, Dylan was trying on all these clothes trying to look, you know, authentically like he didn't care. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
While we're talking about image, let's talk about the cover. The now famous cover from the Freewheeling Bob Dylan, the cover that you're on with him walking down a partially snow-covered street. He has his hands in his pockets and his shoulders up because it's cold. And you have your arms wrapped around one of his arms. You're wearing like a green trench coat that's tied around the waist.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
Well, he was freezing, you say, in part because he wore this light suede jacket because it looked good. Image, image. Even though he knew he was going to be really cold. Yeah. And who can blame him? It did look really good. It looked good. He had impeccable taste. I mean, I don't want to sound harsh about this clothes thing because who wouldn't want to look right on an album cover?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
It's really important. I think who wouldn't want to choose the right article of clothing and risk being cold?
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
I think one of the problems for young women who fall in love with men older, even if they're just slightly older, particularly if that man becomes very famous, is that you risk this kind of mentor-mentee relationship where...
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
you know the the woman is expected to be the learner looking up to the man and he teaches her everything he knows and it could really be a kind of uncomfortable relationship as opposed to like a relationship of equals but when you and Dylan met you had so much to learn from each other I mean you really admired his music and had so much to learn from that he was really interested in learning about your world you were working in the civil rights movement and
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
You were working in avant-garde theater. He learned about the music of viola and Brecht through the fact that you were working on a Brecht production. And he writes in his memoir about how it really changed him to be exposed to that music. You exposed him to art that he was unaware of because you were an artist yourself. I was glad to see that, to see how much you had to learn from each other.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
You decided to leave for Perugia, Italy. You were supposed to go there after high school. You'd had a trip planned, but because of a car accident, you never made it. And then you moved to Greenwich Village and then you met Dylan and so on. But the opportunity was offered to you again by your mother. So you decided to leave for Perugia. It was a very difficult decision for you.
Fresh Air
Joan Baez / Suze Rotolo / Al Kooper On Dylan
What was his reaction when you told him you were going?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Did a lot of people early on assume that you were gay because of the way you dressed in performance?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
The band was originally so used to performing in Manhattan, in the village, where people knew the band, the people who came were a part of the same arts subculture that the band was a part of.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
But when you went on the road in America, did you start playing in places where people weren't kindred spirits in the same way and they didn't necessarily get what you were doing and didn't know how to react to it?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
How do people respond to you in prison?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
What did you think when you saw the Sex Pistols, the Ramones? Your band, the Dolls, preceded punk, but it was certainly influential in a lot of punk bands and had the same sensibility in a lot of ways. So when you saw that sensibility just really become so popular, what did you think?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
I want to skip ahead to the 80s and 90s when you performed a lot as Buster Poindexter. And, you know, the New York Dolls were so into a kind of pre-punk sensibility and were very high energy and very raw. And, you know, Buster Poindexter is much more of a kind of lounge, more Vegas-oriented kind of persona. Instead of in drag on the cover, the Buster Poindexter character is in a tuxedo.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
That's the thing. No, no, but that's exactly the thing.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
So have you always felt like you were standing back and knowing that any kind of drag that you were putting on, any kind of outfit or whatever you were putting on for a performance was always that, that you always knew it was some kind of drag or another thing?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Right, right, right. Well, that image was encouraged, like on the cover of the Buster Poindexter album, you're drinking a martini.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
In a tuxedo with your pinky raised. And then I was back.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Right. I want to play something from the Buster Poindexter era.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
No, no, I wasn't going to. I was going to play. Thank God. Were you really tired of it?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Tell me why you recorded this. This is a cover.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Yeah, okay. Well, let's hear it. This is from the Buster Poindexter album.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
So when you were on stage with the Reunited and the new version of the Dolls, and you were doing the old Dolls songs, did you have any flashbacks to things that you had totally forgotten about? Did memories surface of things that were really interesting that you had completely forgotten about until you were back in that setting again?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
That's Bad Boy from David Johansson's album Buster Poindexter. David Johansson is my guest, and his first band, the New York Dolls, has a reunion concert that was just released on CD and DVD. It seems to me that you've had so many different characters you've inhabited as a performer. And I'm wondering how much you think your career as an actor has come into play in your career as a musician.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Because before you were even in the New York Dolls, you were with the Ridiculous Theater Company in New York. And over the years, you've been in a lot of movies as well.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
You once said, back in the Buster Poindexter era, Buster can have this great life in the public eye and take the rap for everything, and then David can go home.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
You have a show on Sirius, which is one of the satellite radio stations.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Well, David Johansson, great to talk with you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Any historian would want to know all about that.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
In spite of the fact that you don't remember a whole lot about parts of the early days of the Dolls, do you remember writing the song Personality Crisis?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
And let's just describe what Charles Ludlam's theater was. He used to dress and drag a lot as the leading lady in these Greta Garbo kind of roles.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Well, why don't we hear Personality Crisis as performed by the New York Dolls at the Meltdown Festival over the summer. So this is from The Return of the New York Dolls.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
In the liner notes for the DVD and the CD, you write about Arthur Kane. This was his last performance. He was the bass player of the band. And it was Arthur Kane who knocked on your door and recruited you to be in the Dolls when the band was being formed. He died just a few weeks after the concert. Did you even know he was sick?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Let's talk about how he did recruit you for the band. He knocked on your door in your apartment in Manhattan. You were, what, around 19 or something? What did he tell you about this new band?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
What were some of the things that you knew you didn't want to be about, the kind of music that you thought had dead-ended?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Now, on the album cover of the album The New York Dolls, you're all dressed in this kind of trashy drag with a lot of eye makeup and lipstick. You're wearing a bouffant wig. I assume it's a wig.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
Somebody teased it, right. And you're wearing what looks like capri pants and high-heeled clogs and open cardigan revealing your bare chest. And you're staring at yourself in the mirror of a makeup compact.
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
And the band's name is written in lipstick. Right. For those of us who didn't get to see you on stage, how did that compare with how you actually looked on stage?
Fresh Air
Remembering New York Dolls Frontman David Johansen
What inspired your interest in or willingness to be in a kind of drag for performances? I mean, you mentioned you had been with Charles Ludlam's Ridiculous Theater, and drag was often a part of their performances in theater. So where did you see it fitting into your music?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
You've created this story about life in an office. Have you ever worked in an office? Yes.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Are any of the storylines in the office based on things that have happened to you?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Why don't we hear that scene? In the scene, David Brent is role playing with the guy who's running the seminar. And David Brent is supposed to be playing the customer. And the guy running the seminar is the hotel clerk.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
David completely misses the point in that, but that's so typical of him.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Now, later in the same seminar, David turns the discussion into basically a Q&A about himself. And then he reveals he used to be in a band, and then he takes out his guitar, and he starts playing some songs. Awful. Awful, exactly. In fact, let me play some of the songs.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
That's Ricky Gervais as David Brent in a scene from the British sitcom The Office, which is also now on DVD. Now, Ricky, I know you used to be in a band. Are any of these songs you used to do for real?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
The other great thing about this scene is he does all these horrible things that make you so uncomfortable when a bad performer is singing in a small room. He looks people in the eyes in a dreamy way.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Yes, he bites his lip to show how sensitive he's being. Exactly. Now, as a musician yourself, is this something that you've done or that you've just... Stop me there.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
So in your one-word answers, like what did you say to the questions you were asked in the audition?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
So when you're giving one of your pained looks or one of your this is absurd looks to the camera, who's the camera person? Is there an actor behind there that you can kind of like interact with or is it just like the camera with a camera person?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Now, how were your cast opposite John Krasinski? Did you have to do a scene together before you were both cast to make sure that there was chemistry between you? And for anyone who doesn't watch The Office, I should mention that he's one of the people who works in The Office. And you had a long period of flirtation. But, you know, when The Office starts, you're engaged to somebody else.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
And even though things aren't working out between you two, you still feel like, you know, you're involved in this relationship and you can't get involved with the John Krasinski character of Jim. But eventually, you do get together. So there has to be this chemistry between you. So were you tested out together during the audition?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Do you have a favorite example of one of the times when Michael, the Steve Carell character, came up to your desk and did really bad schtick?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Steve Carell, welcome to Fresh Air. How would you describe Michael?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
You know, a lot of people who have worked in offices feel like they've worked with somebody like Michael Scott, but you've never worked in offices. It's just, you know, you're an actor. So who do you draw on for the character? Are there teachers that you had or other people who you knew who were as clueless? Primarily, yeah.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Mindy Kaling, Greg Daniels, welcome to Fresh Air. One of the things that happens on The Office is that since The Office is shot as if it were a documentary about this group of office workers, people are always talking to the camera, like looking away from the action and then talking to the camera in a confidential way, talking about what's really going through their mind.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
And they're often giving these kind of pained glances to the camera as Michael makes a fool of himself in the office. And I'm wondering if like during auditions, Greg, you asked everybody to roll their eyes and give pained looks because that's so much of what they have to do. Everybody's always so embarrassed on Michael's behalf and looking so uncomfortable because of what he's doing.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
In the seasons that The Office has been on, are there ways that the characters have changed that you never would have expected? And are there ways that Michael has changed the main character that you didn't plan on? It just kind of evolved that way?
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Yeah, and Jen, who you mentioned, is Michael's supervisor. And even when they do maybe, maybe not have an overnight relationship, because she's drunk and he's drunk and he doesn't, they probably just fell asleep, we think.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
Right. Except he thinks that probably much more happened. And he's always acting as if they had this like long, passionate fling. Just like another example of him getting just like everything, everything wrong. It must be so much fun to write for a character like that.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
On the latest bonus episode of Fresh Air, an interview with Yoko Ono from 1989. She says that she became famous for her marriage to John Lennon, but her own avant-garde art wasn't taken seriously then.
Fresh Air
Celebrating 20 Years Of 'The Office'
To listen, sign up for Fresh Air Plus at plus.npr.org slash freshair.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
You know, with hope and with optimism, it's sometimes hard to tell when hope and optimism are really more like denial and not helpful. And it seems to me that's one of the things you were grappling with.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
She is no stranger to writing about death and the importance of memory, whether it's the memory of an individual child or genocide. Let's start with a video that Wildman posted on Instagram when Orly was 12 in sixth grade, and Sarah interviewed her about what she was experiencing. It was 16 months after the initial diagnosis.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Wildman. She's a writer and editor in the opinion section of the New York Times, where she wrote a series of articles about being the mother of her daughter Orly, who had terminal cancer. We'll talk more after this short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
Thank you. and the differences between how hospitals, hospice, and Judaism deal with the illness and death of a child compared to an adult. She described the expert medical care Orly received and the reluctance of some doctors and nurses to speak openly and realistically about what Orly was facing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
She was in the middle of a second round of chemo and, as a result, was bald.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
She also wrote about the impact of Orly's ordeal and death on her younger daughter, Hana, who was nine when Orly died.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
When it was time for tough conversations about turning points in Orly's health care, including it's time for hospice because there's probably no cure, are those things you wanted to tell Orly yourself, or did you want the professionals, the doctors, the nurses, the hospice care people to tell her? Which did you think would be easier for her to digest?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
When you were wondering how much to try to talk with your daughter about the inevitability of death, Did you try to feel her out and see what is she ready to hear and what is she not ready to hear? Did you wait for her to bring it up instead of you bringing it up? We often let her bring it up.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Wildman. She's a writer and editor in the opinion section of the New York Times, where she wrote a series of articles about being the mother of an adolescent with terminal cancer and what it was like at the end, three and a half years after the diagnosis. Her daughter, Orly, died in 2023 at the age of 14.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Republicans SHAME THE USA on LIVE TV for Trump
I've read so much about how family members grow closer when they know a member of the family is dying. You make every minute count. You love each other more. But unless it's a sudden death or a few weeks before death, there's still plenty of time to get on each other's nerves and to argue. And you wrote that you still fought with Orly sometimes. What would you fight about?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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And I wonder how it would make you feel when you did fight about something.
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This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Parents want to protect their children, but how can you possibly protect your adolescent child from a terminal illness and inevitable death? My guest, Sarah Wildman, realized the inevitability after her older daughter, Orly, was enrolled in hospice. That was after three years of treatment for a rare form of liver cancer that had metastasized.
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So, you know, Orly had her reasons to be angry at God. You had to, like, redefine for her and for you the meaning of God. What about your younger daughter, Hana, who was only nine when Orly died, and that was like three and a half years after her diagnosis? What did Hana make of this, and how did she interpret God, or was she angry at God?
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You write about grieving and how the Jewish tradition is different when grieving for a parent than when grieving for a child. What is the difference?
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Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Wildman. She's a writer and editor at the Opinion section of the New York Times, where she wrote a series of articles about being the mother of an adolescent with terminal cancer and what it was like at the end, three and a half years after the diagnosis. We'll be right back.
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You continued to do your job at the New York Times writing and editing for the opinion section. Did you feel this sense of guilt and inadequacy in both places at home, feeling like you're not doing a job at work and at work, feeling like you're not home with Orly in the hours that she's not in school and in the days when she couldn't go to school?
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How did you handle that combination of having, you know, a stressful job and a stressful life at home that were both really time consuming?
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At the New York Times now, as an opinion editor, are you focusing on editing people who have endured trauma or who are currently suffering or who are in the middle of a war? I mean, for example, you worked with Rachel Goldberg, the mother of Hirsch Pollen Goldberg, who was abducted by Hamas on October 7th, and in the attack, one of his arms was blown off.
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He was used by Hamas in a hostage video, and he died in captivity. Was Orly why you wanted to work with Rachel? Did you initiate that?
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I have one last question for you, and that is, where are you now in the process of mourning your daughter who died in March of 2023?
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Sarah Wildman, I'm really grateful that you spoke to us. Thank you for sharing everything that you did.
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Sarah Wildman is a staff writer and editor for the New York Times Opinion section, where you can find her personal essays. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be Grammy-winning pop star and actress Ariana Grande. She's nominated for an Oscar for her role as Galinda in Wicked. She started acting on Broadway and TV when she was in her teens. I hope you'll join us.
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To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews... Follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
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Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Meeble Donato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
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So that was Sarah Wildman interviewing her late daughter, Orly, when Orly was 12 and in sixth grade, going through her second round of chemo. Sarah Wildman, welcome to Fresh Air. You write so beautifully about your daughter and your family. Thank you for coming to our show. Why did you want to do that interview with your daughter?
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Were you able to ask her questions because this was an interview that you wouldn't otherwise have asked her? Because it's a more formal situation that kind of begs for a serious conversation that reveals things. So I'm wondering if the interview format gave you a kind of safe space to ask things that would be uncomfortable to just bring up at dinner.
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Early was 14 when she died in 2023. She endured several rounds of chemo, a liver transplant, two brain surgeries, and a tumor that pinched her spine, leaving her unable to walk. Wildman is a staff writer and editor for the Opinion section of the New York Times, where she wrote several pieces during Early's illness and after her death.
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reflecting on what it was like to be a parent of a child facing mortality and the differences between how hospitals, hospice, and Judaism deal with illness and death of a child compared to an adult. She described the expert medical care Orly received and the reluctance of some doctors and nurses to speak openly and realistically about what Orly was facing.
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Yeah, you describe in one of your pieces how sometimes when friends or neighbors would see you, they would just kind of break down into tears. How did that make you feel when friends saw you and just started to cry?
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You write about how doctors and nurses tend to treat children who have terminal illness or who are at the end stage differently than they would treat an adult. What are some of the differences you observed?
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You know how you were saying that terminal is the kind of thing you have to hear over and over before you're capable of absorbing it because it's so catastrophic? I mean, you write that conversations about death were discouraged in and out of the doctor's office.
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She also wrote about the impact on her younger daughter, Hana, who was nine when Orly passed away. Several years before Orly's diagnosis, Wildman wrote the book Paper Love about her grandfather, who fled Austria after the Nazi invasion, and his girlfriend, who he left behind. No one in the family knew what happened to her, but the book describes how Wildman spent years tracking down the story.
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Maybe that's why, because they have to give you a small dose at a time before you're ready to hear and comprehend the full reality of it.
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Yeah, it's a busy week in transatlantic relations. And just to start off, Leila, I have to note that as his officials were on the way to Europe, President Trump went ahead with announcing 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum imports. So Europeans may have been smiling through gritted teeth as they welcomed their American counterparts here. But in sum, the travel plans look like this.
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Vice President J.D. Vance spoke yesterday at an international summit on artificial intelligence in Paris. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is here at NATO today to join a meeting of some 50 countries that support Ukraine. after he met U.S. troops in Germany yesterday.
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And Friday, Vance will be joined by Secretary of State Marco Rubio and members of Congress for the biggest annual foreign policy gathering in Europe, the Munich Security Conference.
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Well, it ranges obviously based on the venue and the audience. In Paris, with leaders from Europe and Asia in attendance, Vice President Vance asserted Washington will be dominant in crucial ways, including production of the all-important microchips. He warned Europe it should drop its focus on regulation.
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which has meant investigations into American companies, including Elon Musk's X platform, and has meant fines on some of them, such as Google, which Trump has blasted publicly as unfair. While he was in Germany, Hegseth gave a preview of what he'll say at NATO.
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Well, first off, I'm sure they're relieved he describes this as friends talking to friends. And I'm not even joking. Europeans are so on edge here wondering if Trump's well-known animosity toward NATO in his first term will carry over. Added to that now, remember, are these Trump threats against two NATO allies.
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that he may seize Greenland, which is a territory of Denmark, and that he wants Canada to become the 51st state. Diplomats tell me those issues are not expected to be raised here, in part because they're so inflammatory and no one wants to torpedo this first meeting. So back to Hegseth's remark on burden sharing, this is exactly what Europeans are expecting to hear.
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They'll explain that they are increasing their investment, 23 of 32 countries now spend 2% of their GDP on defense. That's NATO's old target. They're expecting Hegseth to repeat Trump's new demand that this be raised to 5%. And what about concerns that the U.S. will pull out military support from Europe? That's particularly important for those countries along the front line of the war in Ukraine.
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But Hegseth was also fairly reassuring about that yesterday. Let's have a listen.
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Now, that doesn't mean there won't be decisions to move some U.S. troops, but he seems to be trying to tamp down fears of anything abrupt. If these are the kind of things he repeats at NATO over the next two days, allies will be relieved. And the fact that he's attending this Ukraine defense contact group meeting today is also reassuring.
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They'd be happy to see Hegseth lead the group, which was set up by his predecessor, Lloyd Austin, but they weren't sure if he'd even come. So I think they'll be considering this a good start.
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You're welcome.
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I would love to have someone who took care of my car or someone who cleaned up the dishes after dinner, but then I'd want them to leave.
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