The Emmy and Peabody Award-winning comedy series returns for a fourth season this week. It's about two women — a successful comic/TV personality in her 70s, and her 20-something comedy writer — and the generational clashes that ensue. We're revisiting interviews with stars Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder, and Paul W. Downs who co-created the series and plays their manager. Also, film critic Justin Chang reviews Warfare, a movie about U.S. Navy SEALs.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: What is 'Hacks' and why is it popular?
This is Fresh Air. I'm TV critic David Bean Cooley. Hacks, the very funny TV series about an older Vegas-style stand-up comic and the generational differences between her and her younger comedy writer, returned to HBO Max last night for its fourth season.
Chapter 2: What roles do Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder play in 'Hacks'?
Today, we feature our interviews with Jean Smart, who stars as Deborah Vance, the older comic, with Hannah Einbinder, who plays her young comedy writer, Ava, and with Paul W. Downs, who co-created, co-writes, and co-stars as their talent manager, Jimmy. As the new season begins, Debra and Ava are embarking on new jobs.
Debra as the first female host of a big three network late night show, and Ava as her head writer. It's a job she got by defying Debra, which changes their dynamic dramatically. Debra makes that clear on day one when she walks unannounced into Ava's new office.
Well, aren't you a big, brave girl?
I guess I am. It's for the best.
We'll see. That's what's happening now on Hacks. But let's go back to the beginning and start with Jean Smart, who spoke with Terry Gross when the show premiered on Max in 2021. Smart's comedic timing was obvious in the 1980s sitcom Designing Women and again in the early 2000s when she won two Emmys for her guest starring role on Frasier.
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Chapter 3: How does the generational clash manifest in 'Hacks'?
More recently, she's played some pretty tough women in the TV series Fargo and Legion and in the HBO crime drama Mayor of Easttown. When Hacks begins, the career of Deborah Vance is in decline. In an attempt to save her career, Jimmy pairs her with a young woman comedy writer, Ava, whom he also manages.
Neither wants to meet with the other, but they do, and Ava reluctantly flies to Vegas to meet with Deborah. At one of their first meetings, Deborah tells Ava the jokes she's written for her aren't funny. Then Deborah asks if Ava is a lesbian. Ava responds that Debra is her employer, which makes it inappropriate for her to ask.
And then Ava goes on to describe, in graphic detail, her sexual experiences with women and men, and concludes by telling Debra this.
So, anyway, I'm bi. Jesus Christ, I was just wondering why you were dressed like Rachel Maddow's mechanic. Great, so, the jokes? You didn't like any? They're not jokes! I mean... Like, they're like thought poems. I had a horrible nightmare that I got a voicemail. What? It's funny because voicemails are annoying. It's like, just text.
Chapter 4: How has Jean Smart's career evolved over the years?
First of all, if you start a sentence with, it's funny because, then it's probably not. And second, jokes need a punchline.
Well, in my opinion, traditional joke structure is very male. It's so focused on the ending. It's all about the climax.
Oh, look who's talking. I just got a TED talk about yours.
Jean Smart, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You're terrific in this as you've been. Thank you. Yeah, for so long. So, you know, you've done a lot of comedy, but this is the first time you've played a comic. Do you have any favorite jokes of the bad jokes that your character tells? Because they're both funny and bad at the same time.
Oh, sure. I mean, I don't think of her jokes as bad necessarily. It's just that she's sort of got her stock.
style of jokes and that she knows she knows her audience were really well and she knows what they expect and what they don't want to hear from her and She gives them what they what they pay for, you know I mean as risque as she gets it was probably the first joke we hear out of her mouth at the very beginning of the show Where you can just kind of hear her before we even see her face where she talks about
being in bed with a guy who keeps saying, you know, are you close, are you close? And she says, yeah, I'm close, I'm close. I'm close to getting a buzz cut, a flannel shirt, and finally accepting Melissa Etheridge's dinner invite. I love that joke.
Are there things you're related to about the generational conflict in this? Because the young comic who starts writing for your character thinks of herself as so cutting edge and a little transgressive. And she really has kind of contempt for your character because it represents everything that the younger comic doesn't want to be.
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you know, she thinks I'm a dinosaur, which I am in a way. But Deborah's attitude, I think, is a little bit that Ava's generation has thrown the baby out with the bathwater and that all they want to do is shock people into laughing. And that's much easier to do than to come up with something kind of clever that actually...
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Chapter 5: What were some memorable roles played by Jean Smart?
makes people laugh um not just out of shock and so you know she it's just sort of funny to watch them you know navigate this com they come from completely different worlds Or at least seemingly at first. And Hannah actually is a stand-up comic, so I was a little bit intimidated at first. I'm thinking, because she's playing the writer, I'm playing the comic, and she's an actual stand-up comic.
Yeah, that's been the fun part, is just their conflict, and the fact that I just get to abuse her horribly.
You've played like brassy, cynical, sarcastic women in comedies and in dramas. In Entertainment Weekly, you were described as the reigning Meryl Streep of tough broad types. So I want to play an example of that. And this is from your role in Fargo when you played the matriarch of a crime family that controls Fargo. And you've taken over from your husband after he had a debilitating stroke.
Meanwhile, the Kansas City Mafia made an offer to take over your operation. And in this scene, you meet the gangster representing the Kansas City family. And you make a counteroffer, an offer for a partnership between their family and your crime family. So in this scene, you're laying out the terms of your deal and then warn him not to underestimate you.
And the mobster from Kansas City is played by Brad Garrett. You speak first.
Now, I don't know. Maybe when you look at me, you see an old woman. And I am 61. I've born six children. Had three miscarriages. Two of my sons are here today. Two were stillborn. My firstborn, Elrond, killed in Korea. The sniper took off at his head. The point is... Don't assume just because I'm an old woman that my back is weak and my stomach's not strong.
I make this counter because a deal is always better than war. But no mistake, we'll fight to keep what's ours to the last man.
You're a good woman. I wish I'd known your husband.
No. My husband would have killed you where you stood the first time you met. So I'd be glad you're talking to his wife.
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Chapter 6: Why is the accent in 'Mayor of Easttown' so talked about?
It's so out of line for you to be telling him stuff like that, Mom.
She is his mother!
She's the mother. She'll get custody. And there's not a damn thing you or I can do about it.
I'll figure something out.
Hello?
You're not his guardian. I know that. Mom. You don't have to say that. Stay out of it. Okay? Understand me?
Wow, you're really good in this. How did you get the part?
They offered it to me. It was lovely. And I said, HBO, Kate Winslet, unless I really hate the part, I'll say yes right now. But I love their relationship because even though it's a bit dysfunctional, I hope that it comes across to the audiences that there is still love and respect there between them. They've been through so much.
So Mayor of Easttown is set in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, just outside of Philadelphia. And Delaware County has some pretty wealthy neighborhoods and some working class suburbs. You probably saw this or at least heard about it, that Saturday Night Live did a parody of the accents. Did you see it of the accents on Mayor of Easttown? Kate said it to me. Yeah.
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Chapter 7: How did Jean Smart start her career in acting?
I must warn you, now that I've learned to finally ask you out, I'll be doing a lot more of it. Are you free this evening? You see, there I go already.
How about tomorrow night? Somebody stop me.
Not me. I wonder what time it is.
Oh.
Ten o'clock.
Oh, crap! I'm late!
Is there something I can do?
Oh, yeah. Make this lousy hangover go away. Where the hell are those aspirins?
You know, perhaps I should get you a glass of water for those. Would you prefer sparkling or still? Or not. I see you're fine.
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