Brett
Appearances
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Just crying in the penalty box. These guys are missing teeth. You think they care about me? They're not snowflakes here. Like, I played sports. I didn't care what the fans said.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Okay, okay. I can understand that 100%. Since I didn't have any indication... And I know now I apologize that maybe it was too much for you. And if I would have known, I would have I would have changed my tune.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
That stipulation is pretty tough because the only thing I had in my mind was sports. No, no, no. Of course not. No, we can do anything else. I'm down for that.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
I'm looking forward to it. I appreciate it. Thank you, guys.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
I'm really curious now what the other bases are. No, you are. Go to hell.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Her name is Rachel.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Where did you meet Rachel? So I met her online, and I always like a girl who has, like, a really nice sense of humor. And so she had a picture of her with these two dogs on each side of her, and it's like, do we look like family? Like, that was one.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Yeah, and she had a costume, too, where she was like Mario, and I liked that she was a little different, like it was her and her friend Mario and Luigi.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
So we spoke a little bit, you know, obviously online for a bit, and then I found out that she's never been to a hockey game, and I'm a big hockey fan.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
And I made sure to get tickets, like, really close to the glass so you can, like, bang on the glass. Maybe a pup would come our way.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Within blood spatter range. Yeah. In case a flight breaks out.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Because that's how I got into hockey. Like, when you're at a live game, it's totally different than watching on TV. TV, a little boring. Agreed. But in person, amazing.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Okay. But, you know, we pre-gamed a little bit before the game. So, went to my apartment, had a good time. It got a little hot before. Like, we had a couple of drinks and then ended up making out for a bit.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Oh my God. I don't even know what base that is anymore.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
A hundred percent. It was really great. I mean, I had to stop and I was like, wait, hold on. We're going through quick. Let's go to the game.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Half and half. You know, I was like, I definitely want to stay, but it was also my home team, you know, big game. So I wanted to make sure like, Hey, let's enjoy this. We can always come back. Like, I think there's a good thing about mixing up energy, you know?
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Well, no, so we could probably get there because that's where I have some questions, why I'm calling.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
So, you know, at the game, obviously we had beers, hot pretzels. Like I thought a really good moment is she had like some melted cheese on the side of her face. And I was like, hey, so I reached over, pulled off my finger and I ate it.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Look, she was smiling and we were laughing.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
And we got put on the kiss cam.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
True. It was good. We had a good kiss. The crowd was cheering. I mean, like, the night's going pretty freaking great. It sounds really good. I wish I was at this game.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
So the game was like near the end of the third period. We probably like two minutes left. And she was telling me, Hey, I'm getting kind of tired. I'd like to leave early. And I was telling her like, this is my team. It's still tied. I want to say for the end, it won't last much longer. But she was really adamant, and then she was like, well, I'm going to head out. And I was like, oh, okay.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
So I was like, oh, my God. Oh, no.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
She did. She left. And you stayed? Yeah, I stayed. She said, hit me up. I'm going to go home. I'm really tired.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
I'm wondering if it's where it is. I mean, look, I'm not into the whole testing thing when I first meet you because of previous trauma. Sure. But I'm glad I stayed because the team freaking won. That was shootout. You know, I was like, I'm good.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Right. Right. Well, I hit her up and I was like, we won. We won. And she just hasn't been answering my text.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Hey, then it wouldn't have worked out anyway.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Yeah, Rachel, that's Brett. I did. I mean, I didn't think it was that intense. You know, you go to a sporting event and you let loose and you support the team and you're there to have a really good time. And, I mean, I didn't get any indication that it was too much for her. Like, the kiss cam happened after I ran up and down the aisles.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
No, no, you're not forced to kiss. No one forces adults to kiss. Like, you do it or you don't.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Well, it's what I do. I don't do it when I'm like going around in my regular life, like running around like a freak show. I just have fun when I'm at a game. Like I'm there to enjoy my damn team and let loose.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
Okay, so he planned this. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on. Who says what the rules are supposed to be? You know, I'm like, that's who I am. And if she didn't show me that she didn't like it, it was still exciting. So if she didn't like it, maybe I would have, like, I don't know.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
No, I'm not going to apologize for making the other players feel bad.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Second Date Update: Hockey Fan Gets Hosed
No, no one looked up and had tears.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
125 - Bankrupting Zuckerberg, Ancient Map Mystery & Finding Atlantis
Socks for your feet when they're cold and weak. Socks for your feet when they're cold and weak. Go to Sunday Cool. Swag.com. Go to Sunday Cool. Swag.com.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Did you read the books?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Starbucks DVD peddlers (Friends)
Do you all remember Wizard of Oz 2? With the wheelers and how scary that was?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 208: Fat Kids = Child Abuse? Afghanistan Alternatives? Is DCFS Abusive?
I'm from Florida, actually. And I have to say you guys have been a great inspiration. First person I've actually subscribed to. So thank you for everything. Thank you. It means a lot.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 208: Fat Kids = Child Abuse? Afghanistan Alternatives? Is DCFS Abusive?
Since we've already won so many things, the House, the Senate, executive branch, the Supreme Court, we talk a lot about macroeconomics, a lot inflation, things that we can't control. What I'm wondering is how do we get the administration and Congress to prioritize and consider legislating a combined package of fiscal policies that address non-life essential costs of the typical American budget?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 208: Fat Kids = Child Abuse? Afghanistan Alternatives? Is DCFS Abusive?
For example, tackling the out-of-control property taxes across the country. There's a movement in several states that are doing that. Florida as well. Home insurance, property taxes make up almost the same amount as a mortgage in many cases. Interest rates and then also fixing the entire credit card industry is terrible in the way they're doing things. It's skewed against the consumer.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 208: Fat Kids = Child Abuse? Afghanistan Alternatives? Is DCFS Abusive?
And a lot of people can't get credit that probably should in the way they do it. So I'm thinking, like, how do we get down to kitchen table economics where they actually put together a bill that has direct impact on people's lives?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Fox News in Panic Mode as Trump Plunges Markets
Seeing what you're seeing now, do you think prices will go up? I know we talk a lot about egg prices and you've seen them go down. The weekly average price just for white large shell eggs just went up 26 cents, but you are importing a number of eggs to meet the shortage. And there's like 328% for the month imported, almost 450% importing more than over a year ago.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Fox News in Panic Mode as Trump Plunges Markets
And obviously some of that from Turkey and Mexico is hit by a tariff.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
It upsets me so much because I really want the corporate media to succeed. I know people might be like, really? Why? Aren't they your competition? No, I really do want them to succeed. I want them to do a good job because They serve a very important function, and they, quite frankly, have resources that we couldn't have. They're able to go into war zones and do some really good reporting.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
They're able to do these international stories, be on the ground in Syria. And I think a lot of these stations do incredible work in those scenarios. But it seems that when it comes to our politics here at home, our domestic politics, too often they are worried about their own access and their own control.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
of the situation and and what the incoming administration is going to do and what donald trump somebody who has made it clear that his is an administration that is about retribution they have instead of holding truth to power i mean remember the phrases um you know democracy dies in darkness we remember all this uh all these phrases that these organizations tried to use back in 2016 to show that we're not backing down now it's the opposite
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
like, yes, sir. How may I help you, sir? How could I make this transition easy for you? Just not the function of what you should be doing at this moment in time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
I'll say this. We were able to get Ken Harbaugh there in Ukraine. Ken Harbaugh at the Mighty Stitch Network did some incredible reporting from on the ground in Ukraine. And so to that point, sorry to interrupt, but I do think it's important that we are highlighting pro-democracy movements, not just in the United States, but all across the world.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And I think that international coverage is something that we're working on building here every single day with our coverage of your amazing coverage of Canada and us getting people like MP Charlie Angus on the show and us doing our reporting on Mexico and things like that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Because here's the thing, we can't afford to have a view that is so America-centric about these issues because the autocratic movement that's out there is not viewing it as a singular thing. They're not viewing it as from the perspective of one country. This is a global movement.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
movement that we are seeing with global alliances, whether you have people like Putin or Bolsonaro or Orban or Milley or you name it. There are these alliances out there across the world who are all walking in tandem with their mission of overthrowing liberal democracy. I don't mean liberal democracy like liberals on the political side, but I mean liberal democracy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
The pro-democracy forces across the entire world also need to be united as well in order to combat this encroachment.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Honestly, just stunning. And you saw Vivek Ramaswamy say this outright. And he said, I'm paraphrasing, but he said something that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
uh americans have a lazy culture um or white americans have a lazy mediocre culture um that uh encourages laziness and he spoke about saved by the bell and all these kind of old sitcoms and how they're making americans lazy and how americans were idolizing the wrong characters they shouldn't be idolizing the jocks they should be idolizing the nerds and the geeks in these shows and that's why um countries in asia are doing so much better than americans when i saw that i was like whoo my
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
God, like, could you just imagine for one moment if Kamala Harris said that Americans have a culture of laziness and that's why we need to bring in immigrants from other countries to fill these tech jobs? I mean, it would be pandemonium. But that is what Vivek Ramaswamy said. That's what Elon Musk said.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
has been saying, and that's what Donald Trump apparently ultimately agreed with after people like Laura Loomer, who is as MAGA as it gets, right? Was with Donald Trump throughout the whole campaign after all these people in the MAGA universe, especially online, were speaking out against those comments and saying, I thought this was about America first.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
I didn't think we were going to have to compete for jobs with the entire world. And they've kind of put themselves in this catch 22 here because for the last, as long as we've been doing this,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
I've seen people like Elon Musk, and I've seen people in MAGA pushing this idea that college is just liberal indoctrination, that people don't need higher education, that instead of higher education, everybody should just try to find a trade and then get a trade job, and that college is stupid, college is a waste of your time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Now here, you have people at the new power center of this Republican Party. People like Elon and people like Vivek Ramaswamy who are saying, these Americans just aren't educated enough. We got to bring in the more educated people from overseas to fill these jobs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And all of a sudden, all of these MAG people who have been told and who have been pushing over the past few years that college is the enemy, that college gets you nowhere, that education is a scam. All of a sudden, they're being told that they are not educated enough to to take these jobs that Elon Musk is saying that he wants to give away to people in other countries.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
So it's quite the predicament that is out there and it is quite the tangled web that people like Elon and Vivek and Donald Trump have weaved in order to come around to an oddly pro-immigration opinion in a weird kind of way. And it's just fascinating to see the backlash that it has produced. The MAGA people are pissed about this for the reasons that I just mentioned.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And I see no signs of this slowing down. And I think for the first time And I'm not going to count my chickens before I hatch here, guys. Don't worry. But I think for the first time, I've seen a little bit of glimmer in some of the comments from these Maggie influencers that some of them just maybe in the back of their head are realizing ever so slightly that, huh,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Maybe it's these billionaires that are trying to screw me over. Maybe it's these people with billions of dollars, the people who are trying to become the first trillionaires in history. Maybe it's them who are the problem and not all the things that they are telling me are the problem. Maybe they are the reasons why our wages are low. Maybe they are the reasons why our prices are high.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
I wonder if there's anything to this. And so I think once that kernel gets planted, once that seed gets planted in people's minds, I think that's an interesting place because I think that seed can grow.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And I think hopefully there are at least some people who could realize that they've been duped, that they've been misdirected to get angry about the wrong things so that people like Elon Musk could get cheaper labor and take their jobs and do all the things that they do.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And hey, there's definitely a substantive discussion that can be had here, right? What are the right levels of immigration, right? At what point, how are you prioritizing Americans in the United States of America to take jobs? There are a lot of actual legitimate discussions that can be had here. But when they start having these discussions, it turns into a full on civil war.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And I think this is why they focus so much on Hunter Biden. I think this is why they focus so much on gas stoves. This is why they I saw. Who was it? Mike Lee, I think Senator Mike Lee the other day. He started he tried to do his redirect where he was like, aren't you pissed about these new light bulbs? Shouldn't we go back to those old light bulbs that the filament light bulbs?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And it's like, even the MAGA people on that one were like, dude, shut up. First off, the new light bulbs last longer. They're cheaper. They're better for the environment. Everything is better about them. So you're just now showing your idiocy here, and you're trying to distract us. We're angry about this thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And so I think it's interesting, finally, when people get actually put on to what's actually happening in the country, how those other issues all of a sudden fall to the wayside. By the way, what happened to those UFOs and the drones that went away quickly?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
In your Justin Timberlake era over there. I love the solo episode, Ben. I thought you did a great job. Thank you so much for doing that, giving us some time off. Greatly, greatly appreciated. And oh my gosh, did so much happen while we were off. I mean, I step away for two seconds and MAGA is in an all-out civil war situation. at each other's throats every single day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
It's getting worse and worse and worse. And you guys remember like there used to be such thing as a honeymoon period when somebody gets elected and their approval rating is higher than normal and everyone's getting along and everyone's all excited and they have a lot of political capital that they could deploy right when they get into office.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Well, I've never seen somebody exhaust all of their political capital and totally destroy their honeymoon period. before the wedding, like before the presidency even begins. This is absolutely insane what we are seeing right now. And I think a lot of these Trump voters that we are seeing, the people who consider themselves to be the real arbiters of what it means to be MAGA,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
They in many ways are feeling duped and they are also very confused because they have put their own MAGA capital in trying to push their MAGA beliefs and Donald Trump himself is now undermining them. which leaves them trying to figure out what the heck do we do? Wait, our dear leader is disagreeing with us. I thought I was Mr. and Mrs. Maga and Donald Trump, my dear leader.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Trump's bluster may work on people like ABC and Disney. It may work on the media. It may work on certain sections of the population, but it doesn't work on people like Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
They respond to actual strength and actual power, which is why the actual power of President Biden, quite frankly, over these past few years was so effective in holding back Russia, in protecting Ukraine throughout this entire invasion.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
He is saying that he supports Elon Musk. How could this be? A lot to get into over here. Jordy, how are you doing today?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And it's why, you know, America was able to expand NATO, actually make NATO stronger than ever and do all these things that actually ultimately made the world a better, a stronger place long term. And so we're seeing now a just a scale back of that with Donald Trump. And we're seeing how easy, once again, this guy is to be played.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
It is already giving the flashbacks in my mind to Donald Trump in Helsinki, where Donald Trump decided to say out loud in public, one of those first meetings, that he supported the intelligence of Vladimir Putin over the intelligence of the United States. And that he, remember when he said, oh, I'm going to work with Vladimir Putin.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
We're going to actually get to the bottom of this election interference. We're going to have a cyber security partnership here. It's like, dude, I'm not even going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say, how do you know you're not getting played? Because at some point you got to assume that he's just in on this whole thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
But at the same time, he is getting played no matter what is going on. Vladimir Putin is just quite frankly – much smarter than Donald Trump when it comes to these issues. And he understands Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
They've had a profile on Donald Trump for, what, decades, at least like four decades now, understanding Donald Trump's psychology, understanding exactly how to use Donald Trump at minimum as a unwitting asset in order to advance Russia's interests. And so they've been doing everything in their power over these past few decades in order to do that. And Donald Trump now is just their puppet.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
and every single step of the way.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
I think we would have got plenty of compliments. Oh, you're Jordy's brother. I think they would have been thrilled. Jordy, don't.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Compass last week came out and said, yeah, we thought that interest rates were going to come down. We thought we were going to start seeing low 5% and continue on the way down over the next couple of years. Then our forecast changed. This is on CNBC. The host asked, what changed? He was like, well, the election. The election when a way that we did not think was going to happen.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And with Donald Trump's policies, they are incredibly inflationary. And now we expect rates to continue to go up 6%, 7% and kind of keep rising and hold there over the next couple of years. That is going to really affect home buyers, potential home buyers. over the next few years.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
It's going to make the ability to take out mortgages a lot more expensive for folks who are hoping to buy a home over these next few years. And that's directly tied to Donald Trump's policies. And the things that I can't even fathom, Ben, and I love that framing too, that the media is the one who are trying to create this honeymoon period.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Because why do you have to, as the media, even if you're making these predictions, why say 100% or 0%? Why not give yourself a little wiggle room? Like they literally from Biden, from like day one, Bloomberg had that report, 100% chance of recession. And now before day one of Donald Trump, they are saying 0%. There's not a 0% chance of anything. Okay. There's not a 100% chance of anything.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
anything. I don't know why they make it that sure of a thing, but that is how these organizations that are respected by the general population, organizations like a Bloomberg or whoever, that is how they set these narratives that people believe.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
I don't recommend doing this because why torture yourself, but if you go back to the early coverage of President Biden, you will see that literally from day one,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
You had these media organizations undermining the presidency and planting at least the seeds, in a lot of cases more than just the seeds, of a narrative of bad economy, bad economy, bad economy, things not getting better, things getting worse. And this was, mind you, in the midst of some of the most horrific things that had happened
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
in American history with a pandemic that he was dealing with, with the recession that Donald Trump and the pandemic caused, with the supply chain issues Donald Trump had caused. At every single step of the way, the media, along with the help of the Republican Party and
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
People like Donald Trump, who had a separate vested interest in this, were just beating down President Biden and doing everything they can to make people continuously angry about a situation that was a hard situation that President Biden actually turned around and improved in a historic way. Now they're doing the opposite with Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
In one of his tweets and in one of his great recaps that we have on MidasPlus.com, Ron's recaps, by the way, side note, the best recaps of every day in politics. I don't even know how he gets all the information. He's just the best researcher. He's always on top of every story. Check it out on MidasPlus.com.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Ron said something like, for all those out there in the Democratic Party and the pro-democracy community at large, complaining about the need for more ways for pro-democracy voices to get out there after the election, you need to take it into your own hands.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
If you're one of these politicians or if you're whoever, an elected official, an unelected official, such as somebody in the party, whoever you are, If you want to get a message out there, you need to make it your job every single day to be going on various forms of alternative media. You can't always rely on, I'm going to just get out my message.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
I'll write an op-ed and it'll go in the New York Times in two weeks and then everyone will see my perspective on this issue and everything will be... No, sorry. That's not how things are done anymore. The one thing that I will say that Republicans have been quite good at is you see them everywhere, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
They're not only on the Sunday shows every week, but they're on all those right-wing podcasts all the time. They show their faces all the time. They're constantly posting clips on social media. And this isn't rocket science. It's really not.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
So if you're listening to the show and you work in a comms department for a politician or if you are a politician in Washington or in a state house or wherever, local, make it your effort. Make an extra effort to go on. Set a quota for yourself. I need to go on five podcasts a week. or five podcasts a month, just start slow, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
But make it an effort that you need to be getting your voice out there in different ways and that you need to take it upon yourself to realize that there is this medium by which you could get your message out there and that your messages can be heard. Because when your messages are not heard, all you do is you leave a vacuum that is then filled by the people who are speaking.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
so if you're listening to this and like i said you're one of those people get out there hit us up on the midas touch podcast and i know a lot of politicians already do but do it i mean reach us um hit up all the other kind of various shows that are on youtube or podcasts or just take out your phone and post the clip on social media of yourself and get your message out there
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Don't send it through a million different approval processes. Don't worry about every little word being correct, every punctuation mark being in the right place. Just let your voice be heard and understand that people will value that authenticity if you are speaking to them like a human being.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
That's what we need now more than ever because we're going to need everybody out there to be united in taking on the incoming administration and taking on this rise of authoritarianism. And we are lucky, quite frankly, that the people we are dealing with are wholly incompetent. And they think far too much of themselves. And they are going to destroy themselves as we are already seeing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
But when they do that, that is going to be a vacuum that needs to be filled. And you need to ask, am I going to be the person to fill it? In order to do that, you need to take action. That is my message to anybody out there who wants to get their message out and be heard.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
The key thing that we see over and over and over and over again is if you do bend the knee to Trump in these situations, that is how you lose, that is how you get humiliated, and that is how you actually cause serious damage. But what we've seen time and time again is if you actually stand up to him, then you win more times than not, because for the most part,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Donald Trump is all bluster and he is just trying to bully, bully his way around the situation. And that is exactly what he's doing here. And one of the frustrating things about this right here is that you know that ABC and Disney made a calculated decision.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
in the way that they settled this case because donald trump won the election if donald trump did not win the election i don't think they would have settled the case i think they would have um not been as fearful and i think they would have then pretended to stick to their principles but i think they really showed their cards by doing this because they clearly want uh
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
To be have some favor with Donald Trump with the administration have some access to Donald Trump to the administration and not be threatened by Donald Trump's maniac of an FCC Director who is incoming and so they made the calculated decision that let's take the tax write-off Let's settle this case and let's try to get on Donald Trump's good side the problem and something that we could have told them from a million miles away is that once you show that weakness and
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
It's not like Donald Trump goes, oh, great, they came to me, they bent the knee, and all is good now. No, he goes a step further. He then sends the FCC director out there to then further threaten ABC and Disney and say, oh, it was an interesting settlement that you did there, huh, ABC? Well, I think you actually need a little more regulation.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
And we're going to look into how we can regulate you even further now that we're in office, because that was a pretty stunning admission that you made by settling it. That's how this happens. And then it affects, quite frankly, all media companies because Donald Trump feels empowered. What was the move that he did right after this ABC suit? Donald Trump sued Ann Seltzer for a bad poll.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
I mean, how pathetic is that? But that is because Trump felt empowered from the ABC settlement. And he will continue to do this to people, to try to scare them, to try to threaten them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
It hurts all corporate media, but it also hurts all independent media, because ultimately, Donald Trump will turn his sights on independent media, like Midas Touch, like all your other favorite channels, YouTubers, substackers, whoever they are, because he smells blood. But the difference is here, we are not going to bend over. We welcome those attacks here, and we would happily fight them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS for New Year
Because we understand Donald Trump's weaknesses and how he plays this game. And we are prepared as well.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
That reminds me of the other scam. And I think we have clips of this that we could show later in the show, but Trump's other scam is just sit with me for a little bit and you won't even have to pay taxes. Taxes are going to be a thing in the past because we're going to be making so much money off tariffs. You don't understand. We're going to be so rich off.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
between tariffs and gold cards that you're not even going to have to file a tax return or pay a cent. These are the things that Trump is saying never going to happen, never in a million years, even if the best estimates of tariffs, they're going to come nowhere near to the revenue that taxes actually bring in. And remember that tariffs are taxes on the American people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
So those are taxes that actually are regressive taxes that affect the lower and middle classes far more than they affect the rich. I mean, the whole
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
thing is a scam from inside out the guy is a liar he's lied his whole life that's why i do not understand all these wall street people now who are having this sudden like oh my god wait a second he's not good at this where have you been felon's a felon the abuser's an abuser the fraud is a fraud the bankrupt is a bank we thought this guy was told me he was good at business
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Wait, you mean before you go to sleep, you shouldn't be checking the Dow futures? You shouldn't be worried about, oh, no.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
yeah and everything about that fox club was so incredibly embarrassing i was cringing the second it started and that's what fox is like all day people like like it's just state-run media being pumped into people's veins every single day i also want to encourage everybody too by the way if you haven't had a chance to read donald trump's time magazine interview Do it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
I know Ben did a report here on the Midas Touch YouTube channel and the podcast. You could go and check that out here and go through the full thing. I did a report on it on our TikTok and Instagram account. When you read Donald Trump's words, especially in that interview,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
It's something that we noticed as well throughout the campaign and prior to that, that when you read his words, you really see how cognitively impaired that he actually is and how he doesn't ever know what he's talking about and how he can't string together coherent sentences. And I'd like to just read that Time magazine article because his answers are horrendous.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
horrifying not only due to the content of them but due to just the lack of coherence in every single word that he says throughout these pieces i mean it is truly frightening stuff and then he tries to like do this thing oh well biden was the worst this is biden's fault biden would never do a time interview and there's one point in the interview where the time magazine reporter goes biden did an interview with us
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
and trump goes when when did he do it he never did an interview the time magazine reporter goes he did one last year and then trump goes oh that was a terrible interview i read that interview terrible interview so you just said that you'd never heard about this interview he never did an interview biden would never be tough enough to do the interview the reporter says he did the interview then all of a sudden oh you know everything about it and it was horrible
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
By the way, also read the Biden interview from last year, read Trump's interview from this week, and you will see the major difference in these two people's minds. While the press right now, you still have these reporters like the Axios guy at the White House Correspondents Dinner trying to spend his time speaking about the decline of Biden. This is my, buy my book, buy my book.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
We covered it up, but now we're being truthful about it. and they're ignoring all the stuff with Donald Trump while they try to go on with this Biden narrative, it is just completely embarrassing. And we also saw this stark contrast as well, Ben, at the Pope's funeral between President Biden and Donald Trump, where you saw people going over to President Biden.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
You saw people like rushing to see him. You saw him being cordial with folks. You saw him actually being respected there. And you saw Donald Trump being treated kind of like the piece of crap he is at this event and just humiliating the United States. Like that contrast to me was just incredibly, not eye-opening because we knew it, but it was quite the sight to see this weekend, I thought.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Yeah, and if you want to submit your own question for this event, you could do that. And we're trying to get you involved. After all, this is a virtual town hall. So if you go to MidasPlus.com, our substack, you will see an article about this very event, about this Democratic governor event. It's the article is Midas Touch hosts first ever Dem governor virtual town hall this Tuesday.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
You click on that. There's an upload link right in there. You could record a quick video under 60 seconds of yourself. And we're going to pick the best questions and you'll get to have your question heard.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
by one of the top governors in the country and this is going to be the first of many of these events you know we would love to have every governor we can't have 50 governors on the screen at once you know um but we're going to do this then we're going to get more governors at another point we're going to continue to elevate the content here and just try to you know really make a difference here with this platform elevate these voices make sure that everybody's being held accountable to you that is our goal here at the midas touch network so check that out uh april 29th tuesday 8 p.m eastern 5 p.m pacific ben
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
I'm doing well. Ben, it sounds like we don't have that much to talk about today, right? It seems pretty, pretty light day of news. Every day, just an absolute whirlwind. And we've been discussing now for a while that Donald Trump's presidency would soon collapse. I think we are in the collapse phase now. I think we are seeing it play out before our eyes.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
and that that's and that's what this is all part of the plan strategic uncertainty we're going to say britain isn't aren't all deals bespoke deals are there generic deals like you're making deals with individual countries of course they're bespoke deals just because you give it like some sort of fancy name doesn't make it anything different like you're just like renaming your failure and it's like they really this is like you're going to give the mexico deal to japan just
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
me that mexican boilerplate language for the japanese deal please like of course they're bespoke deals yeah like you know trump has a way of bringing you know people who may have been respected in their fields and high level in their fields down in the dirt with him into this lying grifting area and scott besant is one of those people who had like a storied career as a respected guy among wall street amongst investors and that's why he kind of breathes through the confirmation process and all of that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
And to see him speaking like a con man now, to see Marco Rubio, all these people who just sell their souls for this crap, it just gets really depressing to see this stuff. And it really is like the COVID response. We see right now, we are not in the time right now where you're seeing the bodies pile up. I'm comparing it to COVID. We're in February, March right now of that period or earlier.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
the warnings are there the signs are there we're seeing what's happening around the world we're seeing the ships be stopped at the ports in china not coming here we're seeing the trucks be empty we're seeing the inventory decrease we see and everybody knows what is going to happen here in a matter of months if not weeks and they are just ignoring the problem except this time unlike covid donald trump gave it to the united states of america donald trump unleashed this
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
on us for no reason no reason to do this whatsoever we're actually doing quite well in a recovery recovering economy that was destroyed from his last term we were picking up from the guy last guy who destroyed it him And now it's back in his hands and he's going to destroy it again.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
So let's check out some of these Scott Besson clips, because I think like sometimes when we say it, I think sometimes people are like, you really said bespoke deals. No, yes, Scott Besson said that on TV. Here's Scott Besson speaking about his bespoke deals.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
The numbers are just horrific for Donald Trump right now and getting worse so much so that at this point, he is now threatening to launch investigations against the pollsters because he doesn't like the polls. He's back to his typical whiny ways.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
standoff right now well brian first of all it's all the president especially on the 18 important trading partners we're doing bespoke deals bespoke deals so we showed that earlier and now we got to take it one step further right so we went from bespoke deals but it's not just enough that he was doing bespoke deals but now how are you getting to 200 deals when there are only what the un recognizes 193 countries so you somehow have more deals than even countries that exist
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Interesting, right? Oh, Scott Besson has an answer for that. Trump is making sub deals. Just nobody knows about it, but there are sub deals.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
He is now being seen by everybody as the paper tiger he is, as the emperor with no clothes, with all of his empty promises, his constant, oh, we're going to do that in two weeks. We're going to do this in two weeks. The scam is being exposed. Donald Trump is looking weaker than ever. And I also would be remiss if I did not shout out
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
all of our Canadian viewers and listeners at the top of the show who have voted, who are voting by the time the podcast audio listeners are listening to this. You probably know the results by now, but shout out elbows up to all the Maple Midas out there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Yeah, there's no coherent strategy. I mean, that's it. There's no coherent strategy except they're going to just lie in your face every single day. If the tariffs are on, oh, these tariffs are great. They're going to make you rich. Just get ready for the short-term pain, folks. There's going to be short-term pain, but you're going to be so rich.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
When this is over, when the tariffs come off, oh, it's the art of the deal. Donald Trump is so brilliant. Look how much richer he just made our country. Look how much fairer our trade is. None of that's ever true. Manufacturing is going to leave the country in greater numbers than ever. These businesses are going to go more offshore.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
All of Donald Trump's intended kind of even goals of these kind of tariffs, measures are going to end up backfiring and end up being actually just like do the complete opposite of, of what he wants to do. I mean, the whole thing is, this is also just like the biggest disaster imaginable right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
And just the fact that he's blowing up the economy with all of this, just every single day, it's, it's actually insane.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
And thank you for doing your civic duty and for allowing us here at the Midas Touch Network to speak about Canada and expand our coverage into Canada. It's been exciting. Oh, and by the way, remember to add the Midas Touch Podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify to get all these news updates all day in your favorite podcast apps. Then what's new.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
I'll put the link, by the way, also in the description to this video and podcast. So if you check the description, you'll go right to it. But you could also just go to the sub stack at MidasPlus.com.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
So you ever wake up and feel like your body just hit the snooze button on life? Yeah, same. Honestly, aging sneaks up on you in some wild ways. Whether it's a night out or a good workout, I just don't bounce back the way that I used to. One day you're full of energy, the next you're Googling how to stretch without pulling a muscle.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
I believe one of the best aging breakthroughs of the last decade is qualiocinalytic, and here's why. It's designed to help your body naturally eliminate something called senescent cells, also known as zombie cells. These are the ones that just hang around after they've stopped doing their job, draining your energy and making you feel, well, old.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Think joint discomfort, sluggish recovery, low energy, the whole deal. Qualiocinalytic is a groundbreaking supplement made with nine plant-based nutrients, and you only take it two days a month. That's it. Since I started taking it, I felt more energized, quicker to recover from workouts, and honestly, just more like me again.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Plus, Qualia's breakthrough formulation is vegan, non-GMO, and tested by leading scientists. Experience the science of feeling younger. Go to qualialife.com slash Midas for up to 50% off your purchase and use code Midas for an additional 15%. That's Q-U-A-L-I-A life.com slash Midas, M-E-I-D-A-S for that extra 15% off. Your older self will thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
And thanks to Qualia for sponsoring this episode.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Did you see Polyev's post today, by the way, too? It's so funny because all these guys leaned into MAGA so much at first because they thought, oh, Donald Trump just had this win, and we're going to ride this sort of anti-democracy wave into power across the world, right? This is what, like, their plan was in every country kind of across the world.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
then they realized how toxic donald trump was and there was that one moment then we found out that there was a coordinated moment behind the scenes between polyev's team and donald trump's team where he said god you gotta stop talking about me please stop talking about me and then dom that's when donald trump did that interview where he was like in fact i think uh mark carney would actually be better for me actually and it was like what this is like the most obvious thing and so then polyev today posts uh after donald trump's post he goes president trump stay out of our election
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
The only people who will decide the future of Canada are Canadians at the ballot box. But clearly, you know, understanding how toxic wrapping the arm around Donald Trump has been that on the final day when Trump is making his final pitch to the Canadians, Polyev is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, please stay. away from us. I am begging you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Mark Carney, on the other hand, making it clear this is Canada and we decide what happens here. He released a video today. I'll play you a clip of it right here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
This quote unquote new media section that they have there, it's truly crazy. It's the craziest of the crazy people from the internet who end up in the White House asking these questions that would make North Korea blush, quite frankly, when you hear them. And that and so many other instances They have a habit of fixing problems that don't exist. No one has any issues.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
She acts like this is some huge issue that's been affecting truckers. No, you're just going to actually now make a lot of people unemployed. We had too much employment in the country. Was that the issue? You needed to just hit the truckers a little more while they were down as you were taking away their jobs because they're seeing the inventory decrease. They're seeing their orders drop.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
They're seeing what's going on. They're looking down to the orders from...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
I don't even think it's that. I think it's like, do you want to be number one or do you want to like break your neck?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
walking down the street like it's like it's not you're not even in the competition you know it's it's like you're you're not even playing the game i don't even know what the heck he's doing it's just everything's designed to be as destructive as possible but you know if i think if i could like find one silver lining in all of this there is
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
There's a poetic aspect about this, that Trump, this wannabe dictator authoritarian, the epitome of greed and ignorance, who thought he could just destroy democracy by turning America into this corrupt authoritarian playground,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
that he's accidentally reignited the very thing that he tried to destroy while he tries to take away our freedoms here, while he tries to attack us here to strip apart our democracy around the world. After years of rising populism, of autocracy around the world, we saw all these movements forming. Remember, when there was the 2024 election, the shift that we saw in this country
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
mirrored the shifts that happened in countries across the world, these rightward shifts. It wasn't just a U.S. issue, a Democratic Party issue. It was a global issue. But after years of that happening, people are finally waking up. And it's because of Donald Trump, because they're seeing this grotesque individual out there, this wannabe strongman just destroy everything.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
And they're going, we don't want any part of this at all. This is that's disgusting. What is going on there? We don't even want to be anywhere near that. And so you are seeing right now the ground shift beneath our feet, whether you're talking about Europe, whether you're talking about Asia, whether you're talking about Latin America, whether you're talking about North America.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
There is now a rising pro-democracy movement that is for the first time in many years growing. And in an odd way, in a poetic turn of events, we have Donald Trump to thank for that because of how grotesque and horrific he is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
No, thank you to everybody and keep up the good work. Stay hopeful out there. I know sometimes in a sea of darkness, it is hard to find the light, but stay hopeful. You know, everything is, you know, I would say the opposition is strong, the resistance is strong, and that is thanks to you. I'm excited for you all to tune into that town hall. It's going to be a really special event, I feel,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Please remember also to add the Midas Touch podcast on any podcast apps that you have. So if that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of the other podcast apps, add the show. If you have an option to leave a five-star review, please do that as well. It really helps us out. It helps us to get out to even more people. And I'm excited to get back to doing some more Instagrams for you guys, TikToks.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Ben's going to do some more hot takes. And thanks for watching, everybody. This has been a good episode. Shout out to the Midas Mighty.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
I nearly forgot about that one. You're right. It's like a Russian nesting doll of scams from Donald Trump. And he does one, then he says another, then he says another, and then he keeps dangling the various scams in front of his supporters. The supporters are the ones that are really ultimately getting scammed at the end of the day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
You know, we have people on the team, and Ben's one of them right here, who get Donald Trump's emails that he sends out to everybody on a daily basis. Donald Trump perpetuates these scams via his email. I wonder, and Ben, I'm sure you would have some insight into this, if in a society where laws mattered...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
if this would constitute some sort of wire fraud at any sort of point, because Donald Trump is constantly dangling these scams in front of people to get them to donate to his committees to then try to use in these congressional elections and whatnot. For example, he'll do an email. Do you want to see a Doge $5,000 check? Well, donate here and you'll see what happens. Do you want to win this?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Do you want the gold card? Do you want the whatever? He's constantly dangling these scams in front of his people like the crook that he is. Every single day his supporters are getting blasted with these messages. And then he's bringing this into our government where he is trying to just out scam himself in order to hide the last scam.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
It truly is a Ponzi scheme method the way he is running the government. And this Doge thing, by the way, now that it's going to be wrapping up, maybe not Doge entirely, but Elon Musk's involvement at the end of next month, which is mandatory, by the way, because he's not a real government employee, because he's a special government employee. He basically has to be out by the end of May, Musk.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Doge is going to end up costing us much more than it saved. It really hasn't saved us that much. And the things that they are dismantling, like think about just the IRS, for example. They are getting rid of the agents who collect the revenue for the country. Every agent they get rid of, they are losing millions and millions of dollars of revenue, billions of dollars more.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
This is the worst idea ever. But I think when you kind of go down that rabbit hole, you realize, oh, perhaps it wasn't to actually make the government more efficient. Perhaps it was to raid the government for our data, potentially give it to foreign adversaries, have Elon Musk be able to do whatever he wants to do with his private companies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/29/25
Companies with this data, like there's, I think, a lot more nefarious things at work. But from a governmental perspective of was this a successful program? Did it achieve the goals that it stated to the American people? That was a complete and total failure, perhaps the worst we've ever seen.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
It seemed like it was more of a resetting, a going back to zero in this situation. And so I just want to caution everyone I would say this to the media, but they're not going to listen. But I'll say this to all of you. I hate that this is true. We can't trust the press releases that come out of the White House anymore.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
We need to treat them like we would treat any other truth social posts, and I'm sure many of them are just dictated by Donald Trump like truth social posts. So when Donald Trump goes, runs out to spike the football, to announce a victory, to put something out there, your first kind of interpretation needs to be, okay, what is this propaganda? What am I looking out for?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
I need verification before I believe this to be true. and you need to look at all sides of it. And so it's going to be a tough thing to approach in this administration, but it's going to be something we're going to have to readjust to, that these messages coming out of the White House are probably not true at all times.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
President Biden used to always say something, I think he even said it in the interview that you did with him, I'm paraphrasing, but something along the lines of, if America isn't there to lead the world, then who is?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Well, we're finding out who is, because during Donald Trump's plan to be, quote, America first, I say that with the utmost sarcasm, of course, what he is really doing is he is just, he's not putting America first, he's removing the United States from the conversation entirely. Once that vacuum is there, once that void is there, you know what? It needs to happen. Somebody needs to fill it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
So these countries that have previously been able to rely upon the United States as allies, as trading partners, you name it, they now need to find other sources for those things. And then China comes out with an outstretched arm and they say, hey, We're fans of you guys. How can we help? What can we do for you?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And these countries are more than happy to take their support, whether it's Mexico, whether it's Colombia. And I saw the messages being shared by these world leaders from China, by these ambassadors to the people of Colombia, to Mexico over these past few days. The United States of America under Donald Trump is already completely abdicating its leadership on the global scale.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And it's amazing how quickly, after Donald Trump decided to take office, that China now has this reemergence, this resurgence of power in the world that we have never seen before. I mean, think back to President Biden's presidency. It seems like a while ago. I know it wasn't that long ago. Under President Biden, remember,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
the pace of the American economy was growing faster than China's for the first time in over 40 years. That had never happened before. And that was because of President Joe Biden's steady hand, his global leadership, him bringing together these allies, his increasing the power of NATO, his investments in technologies like semiconductors.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Trump comes in, all of a sudden, China has like the top AI model. The entire industry is in collapse like overnight. Everything is kind of suffering. Our allies are going to China for help. China has established itself as a global leader. And it's just really, really stunning the long-term damage that Donald Trump is already doing in this short period of time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
I'll put it this way. The tech stocks in particular, because of this new Chinese development in AI, got hit really, really hard. That sector got absolutely destroyed on Monday in a big way. Again, NVIDIA, I could probably look it up now, but they lost incredible amounts of market share. Their stock went down nearly- 17%, nearly a trillion dollar market share in the tech industry.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Boom, poof, gone overnight because China released this DeepSeek. And why? I'll just explain it very briefly. This DeepSeek app, this new AI company that China did, first off, they developed it in like two months, which is like completely unheard of. And they did it with, I think, fewer than 200 employees and for something like $10 million.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
I want to remind you, and I'll pull back up the screenshot of Donald Trump and this AI investment that the US was touting just last week with Sam Altman, who founded OpenAI, who does chat GPT. They were touting this investment by Sam Altman by these... tech companies of $500 billion in AI infrastructure.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Well, China just developed a platform, an AI platform that by all accounts, people are saying is better, more effective, more efficient, uses less computing power, requires less people to operate, requires you could do it on just gaming instead of those big graphics processors that Nvidia makes that people thought you needed these really expensive GPUs in order to conduct AI.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
They did it for like $10 million while the US is talking about this $500 billion investment, which now seems just absurd and ridiculous because you see how efficient that the Chinese are doing this right now. And the technology seems like leaps and bounds above what any company in the United States is doing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
I mean, it's totally egg on the face of all the people who are involved in these AI investments because they were blinded by doing whatever they were doing that they didn't even see this coming. They just got completely sideswiped. And whether it's Sam Altman or Mark Zuckerberg, Or people like David Sachs, who's what Donald Trump's AIs are or cryptos are and all these people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
I mean, they look like fools. They look like incompetent morons right now. They look like they are setting the United States back. If this is like the modern space race, China just leaped ahead of us. Leaped ahead of us. Donald Trump allowed it to happen. David Sachs allowed it to happen. Elon Musk allowed it to happen. Sam Altman allowed it to happen.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And then doing it open source, basically saying, check my work, you know, in a way. You could see the code for yourself. You could modify the code. That's what open source means. We're going to put the code out there. See it for yourself.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And all of these companies who have relied on AI as the foundation for their business models and these high-powered GPUs and everything looked at it and they went, oh, shit. oh, this is way better than what we're doing, way more efficient, way cheaper, like we're screwed.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And so there was panic in the tech industry, which I think is going to persist because now they got to catch up to what they're doing out there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Okay, I gotta tell you about this game-changing product I use before a night out with drinks. It's called ZBiotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink. Let's face it, after a night out with drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. I used to feel like I had to choose between a great night out and a great next day, until I found ZBiotics.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Z-biotics produces an enzyme that breaks this byproduct down. Just remember, make Z-biotics your first drink of the night, drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I won't lie, I was skeptical at first, but I gave it a shot before a night out with friends at our favorite spot downtown, and I could not believe the difference.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
The next morning, I woke up ready to tackle a packed schedule, no sluggishness, no regrets. Now, I use Zebiotics every time I know I've got plans the next day. Go to zbiotics.com slash Midas to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use code Midas at checkout. That's M-E-I-D-A-S. Zbiotics is backed by a 100% money back guarantee.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
So if you're unsatisfied for any reason whatsoever, they will refund your money. No questions asked. Again, that's zbiotics.com slash Midas and use that code Midas. That's M-E-I-D-A-S at checkout for 15% off. Cheers to feeling great tomorrow. This episode of the Midas Touch podcast is brought to you by Graza.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Everyone knows I love food and what's been taking my meals to the next level lately is Graza. It's my olive oil of choice because it's top-notch extra virgin olive oil at an affordable everyday price. Graza is super fresh, never blended and made from one kind of olive, the Piqual olive from Jaén, Spain, where over half the world's olive oil is produced.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Graza has two incredible olive oils, both in a convenient squeeze bottle for ridiculously easy cooking and finishing. Sizzle is their everyday cooking oil with a smoke point of 410 degrees Fahrenheit, perfect for baking, sauteing, or really anything you cook. Then there's Drizzle, a punchy, vibrant finishing oil. Use it for salads, dipping bread, or even drizzling over ice cream.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
It's seriously the best olive oil you'll ever taste. I'm a big home cook, and Graza has become essential in my kitchen. I love how Sizzle's clean, rich flavor elevates my cooking, while Drizzle's bright, grassy notes add a final touch of flavor that makes my dishes shine. And the squeeze bottles, total game changers, no mess, no stress, just amazing olive oil right where you need it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Seriously like no other olive oil on the planet, and I was using Graza even before they came on as a sponsor, so I was thrilled to welcome them to the show. Here's the deal. You could get 10% off your first order of any olive oil on their site, but I highly recommend the Graza Starter Kit.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
It comes with two squeeze bottles, sizzle for cooking and drizzle for finishing, plus two refill cans so you could keep your bottles full without buying new ones. You could also find Graza at Whole Foods or Target, but don't miss this online offer. So head to graza.co and use code MIDAS, M-E-I-D-A-S,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
This is going to destroy the tech industry. His comments alone, after the stock market today with those tech stocks losing a trillion dollars in value, to then go around when the thing that these AI companies, the companies like Nvidia, these companies rely on parts to build semiconductors. or they rely on getting the semiconductors.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And most of the semiconductors, despite all the investments that we've made and we've been making great progress, most of them still come from Taiwan and other places overseas, but mostly Taiwan. So if Donald Trump is now making it more difficult for those companies and more expensive, for them to get their hands on materials to make semiconductors or semiconductors.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
He is now giving China yet another massive leg up in this AI race. It's just so baffling. And what we're realizing kind of every day is that Donald Trump's like a fascist loser wind-up doll who has one thing programmed in him. You pull the string and he just goes, tariff. Tariff, tariff. And it's like all he knows how to say.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And so like no matter the situation, he comes up with the same solution, and I say that in quotes, to the problem. And it just ends up screwing United States businesses every single time or the United States consumer every single time. These are going to add up because yesterday –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Ben, the one thing that was crazy that I was showing you yesterday were these comments from MAGA influencers, comments from people like MAGA Mike Johnson and Fox, and they're all now trying to shift the propaganda. So the new lines are they're basically trying to put it in people's heads, starting with the MAGA people, that, you know what, higher prices are actually good.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Higher prices, that's patriotism right there. You got to pay some higher prices. That's America. Are you not American? You got to pay those higher prices. And it is just so obvious, this propaganda, and especially after the past four years where they blamed everything on President Biden. you know, they, they blame bird flu on president Biden. They blamed, uh, you know, COVID on president.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
They would, they blame everything that affected prices on president Biden. But now that prices are literally rising as a result of Donald Trump's direct actions, all of a sudden it's, it's patriotics, good stuff. This is exactly what America needs. So let me just show you like some of these comments, uh, that we saw, um, over the past couple of days. And these are just like a few of them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
There are plenty more than, uh, just this. Um, but we're seeing these comments from MAGA. I got a,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
got to find it's hard to produce and speak at the same time it's very impressive that you are able to do both um but i'm looking at them right here so here are some like the top mega influencers who you know these guys always support trump no matter what you know they're i'm sure they are group chats together coordinating stuff like this because their messages are always the same and here's like this gunther eagleman he writes i'd rather have lincoln riley alive than cheap colombian coffee
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
They're just acknowledging now that they're going to have higher prices. This person, Scott Pressler, who Ben has done numerous videos about, he did a lot of those get-out-the-vote efforts for Trump in Pennsylvania. He wrote, I'm willing to limit my coffee consumption if it means deporting criminal legal aliens for our country. I voted for safe streets and a secure border.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
This DC Drano character wrote, I think this guy was at, I think all these people are pretty much at all of Trump's inauguration parties today. You're at, wait, you're telling me all I have to do is pay an extra dollar for my coffee and all the illegals get deported. I'll take it. And so you see this new messaging kind of filling the MAGA ecosystem that high prices, we're great with high prices.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
We want high prices and MAGA Mike was asked about. So like any of the things that you're doing now, I, Are they going to target lower costs? Like, what's your plan here? Because this is kind of what you guys tried to run on, right? So what's going on here? Here's what Maga Mike had to say when he was asked about lowering costs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And, you know, it's obviously not just MAGA Mike, right? It's we started with the MAGA influencers. You got MAGA Mike. And of course, you need the propaganda arm. You need the state TV. You need Fox News and them pushing this sort of stuff. So let's hear what Fox had to say. Spoiler alert. They said, you know what? Maybe Americans should just be making their own coffee.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
They should be growing their own coffee beans.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Okay, let me just make it clear. As the resident coffee nerd, I just got to do a little fact check for Fox on this. More than 99% of the coffee consumed in the United States ain't from the United States. It's from Colombia. It's from Ethiopia and other places in Africa. A very small percentage. I think it's like 0.35% or something actually comes from the United States itself.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And so if you think that's going to be enough coffee to satiate Americans' coffee habits, take that argument to the people. Let's see how that works out for you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
That's what the media was saying after President Biden issued pardons for people like Liz Cheney and other people on the January 6th committee and the officers who testified. And that was what had us here pulling our hair out going, are these people just like idiots? Are they doing this on purpose? What is their deal?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Because he has stated quite plainly throughout the campaign that he is going to make these people's lives hell. That at minimum, he will investigate them in order to bleed them dry financially. And at the worst case scenario, he literally wants to lock these people up who are just doing their jobs, following the law.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
But Donald Trump has stated for months and months, if not for years, that he wants to inflict retribution on his political enemies. So here we are. Donald Trump is now doing that against all these people. And I feel like the people who are criticizing President Biden for the few pardons that he did are silent on this issue, treating it like it's normal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Sorry, I just had to jump in because it just enrages me so much.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And I want to remind everybody, too, that the CHIPS Act is like one of the most successful pieces of legislation from the Biden administration that people now from both parties acknowledge that is a very good piece of legislation. The CHIPS Act is what remember Mike Johnson was asked by a reporter. I believe he was in Buffalo. It was a Syracuse reporter who asked.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
who asked Mike Johnson about the Chips Act, and he said that he was going to get rid of it and immediately got a whole ton of backlash right away. Why? Because a lot of these factories that are building these chips are in Republican districts, Republican states. And so Mike Johnson got massive backlash.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
He very quickly came out with a statement saying, you know, pathetic Mike Johnson, typical empty vessel, soulless, tiny man saying, oh, I guess I didn't hear the question when it was asked. I didn't mean that. I I didn't hear the question classic Mike Johnson move, but he needed to back away from that line because the chips act is popular. It's helpful.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
It's bringing tons of jobs to the United States, and especially in Republican areas. And Trump's strategy here, it's so dumb. It's one of the reasons why we're already seeing the US lose the AI race so quickly into his administration. And as he does actions like this, the US is only going to fall further and further and further behind.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And those brologarchs, as you call them, Ben, these tech brologarchs, who are sucking up to Donald Trump and are spending all their time rather than focused on their companies, but hanging around Mar-a-Lago with Donald Trump. They're taking their eye off the ball while all these other countries overseas are completely dominating us with China leading the pack.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Not the tattoos make you look like bad people, but maybe.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
I, you know, you know, I kind of feel like I entered the upside down. Nothing quite makes sense. But, you know, we're working through it. We're working through it, people. But here's the thing. When Donald Trump does all these crazy things.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Americans, like not even not even illegal immigrants or anything. You know, he's talking about sending Americans away. who are in jails instead of putting them in american jails deporting them to el salvador and putting in these prisons that's literally what trump said today and part of the one in one of these speeches
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
as these republican politicians just so brazenly go along with his most illegal actions the most important thing that we could all do as a community is hold the line and stay strong and not buckle to these authoritarians by the way the one thing that the media is absolutely failing at and a lot of politicians are completely failing at right now but if They're not going to protect us.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
I mean, look. And for those wondering how to sign up, like when you go to MidasPlus.com, it'll just say like, what's your email? You put in your email, you're signed up. And you could see most of what we put on there just right off the bat.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
um including you know ron will paywall his uh daily recaps but you could still see a lot of them even get a taste for him and all that um they're really good they're honestly like the best bulletins of like if you just want to be like all right at the end of the day you know i'm not gonna i'm not gonna be watching the news all day but at the end of the day i just want to catch up on everything that happened those bulletins nobody does it better than ron on midasplus.com
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Ben, you know how I know the views are getting up and going out there and how this is reaching a lot of people? When MAGA starts targeting us with cyber attacks, that's when I know that this is really reaching a lot of people. That is a true thing that happened. You can read about it on MidasPlus.com. Something fun we got to deal with over the weekend.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Can we do tariffs? Does that help us? No.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
We need to be the ones here on guard, doing the work, putting it in every single day, calling out this BS, calling out the lies, calling out the propaganda, because it's right now at its largest level that we have ever seen. And not only that, we now have a complicit corporate media who parrots Trump's propaganda as the truth. And that's probably the most dangerous part of all.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
So we need to be beacons of the truth here. We need to be the protectors Of all of that, we need to be fighting back, and it's great to be able to do that with everybody here on the Might of Such podcast. Jordy, what's new on your end?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Coffee prices soaring, Ben. And that especially pisses me off as a coffee guy. Very, very upset about these coffee prices spiking right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Yeah, Arabica coffee beans reached their highest levels in history today because of this, and that's without the tariffs. So imagine if this fight continues to develop and Trump does impose the tariffs and the Colombian president does impose his tariffs. say that all happens, then you're going to see just a complete, a massive escalation in the prices.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
But we're already right now at the highest point. I mean, the previous highest point happened because of a bad harvest, like because the beans were destroyed in a bad harvest, not because of a self-inflicted wound by the president of the United States causing instability in these markets.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
And this is the one thing I want people to take out of this, because this was a fast moving situation yesterday. There was update. It And like Ben said, we still don't know exactly where this even quite landed out. But I'll say this. This is maybe page one of Donald Trump's playbook. It's like his go-to move every single time. And that is create a problem.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
create a fake solution to that problem, immediately spike the football and declare victory and have the messaging be that you solve some sort of problem that you created. And so I want to be clear about this as well. We have been doing deportations in this country forever. President Biden did a lot of deportations in this country. President Obama did a lot of deportations in this country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
I think even more than Trump, actually. But the difference here is that Trump is running into trouble with these deportations, his signature policy. He's actually the one president who's unable to actually execute these deportations. Why? Because he is going about it in this showy way where he is treating the people like they are not people. He is treating them inhumanely. He is shackling them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
He's putting them in cuffs. He's treating them like they are criminals and like they are garbage. And so these countries are rightfully offended to see citizens of their countries being treated in this sort of way. And so they are pushing back. So yesterday, as we saw this kind of story unfold, the first story was, it felt a little like the Colombian president had bent the knee a little.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
But when you looked into it, what he was really saying was, I'll send my plane because I want to watch over these people. I want to make sure you're not treating them like crap because these people deserve to be treated with dignity. Then he imposed the 50 percent tariffs on Trump, which are not in effect. I just want to be clear currently because they worked out this this deal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Then there was all this chaos, this back and forth, the saber rattling between two leaders. And, you know, it just all basically back to zero at this point. But the thing that ended up happening was Trump immediately.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
Once he basically got the Colombian president to go back to what we were doing under President Biden, like the same things that we've been doing forever, just treat the people with dignity and you could send them here. When he got back to that, Trump spiked the football and the media ran with that instantly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
They treated Donald Trump's press release – by the way, many of his press releases didn't even spell the country of Columbia the correct way. They spelled it like Columbia University, like when he initially did his social media post with the press release on Truth Social and all of his people posted it and tweeted it out. But what you see here is the media initially grabs onto Trump's narrative.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1/27/25
They then parrot that out. That becomes the story even before you heard the Colombian side of the story. And so when the Colombian president, when they released their statement, their statement was quite different than Donald Trump's statements. Didn't quite say that they agreed to all the things that Donald Trump said that they agreed to.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
is worse than that it was it felt like an ai video and that's why we watched the clip a few times before uh we even went live on the show and ben was like this is real right i'm like yeah she posted it it's real like like where this is real right no this is actually real and i think what they did also in addition to you know the the delivery and everything being weird.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
I think they ran it through an AI filter. I'm not saying it's AI, but to try to, like they didn't record her with a microphone and they were trying to improve it in post. So it gave it this other like robotic feel. But you know, you always wonder like when somebody's kind of, Not in the public spotlight like Anusha Vance. How does she feel about all of this, all of the chaos?
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
Do you give them the benefit of the doubt? And then you see stuff like this and you go, no, you can't. You can't at all. They're complicit in the entire thing. And this is just the latest in a long line of attacks. We shouldn't be in a place right now where we even have to speak about the United States threatening the sovereignty of a bunch of countries. Not even just one would be enough, right?
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
One would be batshit crazy. You have Donald Trump threatening Panama. You have Donald Trump threatening Canada, Donald Trump threatening Greenland and Europe. I mean, the whole thing is absolutely batshit crazy. And I refuse to normalize this lunacy that we are seeing as the administration also rolls out these other side characters like Usha Vance to try to make it sound normal.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
Oh, we're just visiting. We're just going to see the dog sled race. You know who's also going? The National Security Advisor of the United States is going to Greenland as well. one of the other reasons why Greenland is viewing this as a threat. You have Donald Trump openly speaking about annexing all of these countries, going to war with these countries, economic war, actual war.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
They should, frankly, feel threatened. And honestly, if I were Europe, actually, I don't even have to make this hypothetical. Europe is already right now
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
in the process of forming coalitions to go against the United States, whether that's we're not going to buy American weapons, whether that's we're starting to think of it in a few years from now of a NATO without the United States, of a defense alliance where the United States is not even involved in this.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
Donald Trump has been and his administration, they have been the most dangerous administration in American history, bar none. They are just so incredibly reckless. And in just a matter of weeks, few months, they have completely destroyed the United States' standing in the world.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
I mean, how many people actually go into the Colorado State Capitol on a daily... And by the way, it looks like him.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
Jordy is putting his thumb in the camera. He's making me uncomfortable. I don't know what's going on.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
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Head to simplerhaircolor.com slash Midas and use code Midas, that's M-E-I-D-A-S, for 10% off your order. Once again, that's simplerhaircolor.com backslash Midas, M-E-I-D-A-S, for 10% off. And make sure you use my promo code Midas so they know I sent you. Did you know Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online nursery in the US with thousands of different plants and over 2 million happy customers?
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Jordy's been cooking. We're in the lab. A lot more where that came from. And Canada, get ready. Get ready, folks. That's all I'm saying. Working on something special for Canada.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
These people, Ben, are so reprehensible, I just want to say. Never take any responsibility. Everything's just a game to them. Everything is attack, attack, attack. Try to deflect. Pete Hegseth put our national security at risk due to his incompetence, and he continues to treat this like he is on his Fox News morning show, which is maybe the only thing that he is qualified to do, if that.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
have any say in our government any say over our troops what a disgraceful disgraceful response by hegseth quite frankly he should resign he put our people at risk this is a disgrace this person is completely unfit to lead and that response is just heinous and by the way all the things that he named are more true things that happened that they continue to deflect about yeah
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
the Russia, Russia, Russia stuff. Yeah, when Donald Trump called our troops suckers and losers, all of these things that have been proven to be true. And you try to then throw this journalist under the bus after the White House has already admitted that this was true.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
after the National Security Council has already confirmed the authenticity of these text messages, these text messages in which you were discussing America's war plans over text message instead of doing it in a skiff or another secure way. These people are such disgraces. I cannot wait for the day where they are all gone and they get what they deserve. This is so absolutely atrocious.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
They should not be in power whatsoever. We need the people out there to rise up. We need democracy to continue to fight back. We need democracy to win. We need to get these people out of office and we need to elect people to replace them who actually share American values and are able to lead with American values.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
Great to be here, Ben. Great to be here, Jordi. Great to be here, all the listeners and watchers. This is easily, and I want to be clear about this, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, national security blunders that we have seen in this country in the 21st century, if not beyond.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
This is absolutely beyond the pale, just amateur hour stuff that we are seeing, thinking that they could get away with this sort of thing in a signal chat. Yes, signal chats are secure to a point. They're encrypted. But guess what? That doesn't matter if you're inviting in random people into the chats.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
There is a reason why conversations like this, and Mark Kelly was alluding to this in his post, happen in a SCIF, in these sensitive facilities that are specifically designated for this kind of talk. They also have online systems that are specifically designated for this kind of talk. There is a reason.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
that cell phones are not allowed inside of skiffs no matter what you have no matter what encryption you got no matter what signal app you are using because this is some of the most highly sensitive information that we have and to be openly discussing war plans as if we're planning for our podcast ben like you said earlier
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
You're like, we have greater security protocols for planning for the podcast. And I don't even think that's an exaggeration. It's just such an embarrassment. We are seeing every single day just incompetence meets corruption at levels that we have never seen before with this administration, just failure.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
after failure, failing the American people, putting people's lives at risk, ripping away the programs that people need the most, and openly mocking Americans, openly mocking all the Republican constituents around the country as they ditch these town halls. But, you know, I do gotta say, this weekend,
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
did inspire me as i watched these democrats holding these rallies going to these town halls finally i was like there it is democracy has a pulse feel it democracy has a pulse and we saw it out there we saw the energy there are movements building and like i said on the last episode of the show Right now, we are seeing a divide not between left and right within the Democratic Party.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/25/25
We are seeing a divide between those who want to cower and capitulate and want to stand down and those who want to fight. And I love seeing the fighters out there. And I know that people want fight. fighters out there. Jordy, great to see you, man. What's new on your end?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
And he is taking down the Republican Party with him. And I think we are going to see massive ripple effects from all of this because these Republicans, they live in their bubble on Twitter or X or whatever. They're constantly reaffirmed these shitty things and that and they treat these people like crap.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
These hardworking Americans in the federal government, they treat them like crap and they either forget or are too dumb to realize that many of these federal workers don't actually work in D.C.,
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
but they work in their own districts they work in their backyards they are actually their supporters so we are now seeing these republicans and these independents rising up and they are demanding action they are demanding that their representatives uphold their oath and these representatives have been kind of shocked by it and they've been giving the worst answers by the way just lying gaslighting but here's going to be my challenge to everybody out there
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
We know that these representatives, one of the reasons that they are so subservient to Donald Trump is that they are afraid of Donald Trump's supporters. I think we need to make these representatives afraid of us. I think that's going to be crucial to making change in this country. I think that involves peacefully protesting.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
I think that means peacefully showing up to these rallies and doing exactly what these patriotic Americans are doing in all of these various town halls, standing up to people. But you need to make these people
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
not feel safe they need they should be scared of you every time they step into that town hall that you are going to challenge them they should be scared of you that you are going to take to the streets and peacefully protest them if they are going to strip away your rights your livelihood their job and i think that's going to be the key more than anything to bring putting our country on the right track
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
By the way, I want to emphasize, that was a crowd in Missouri, and the young girl had asked a question about guns, and that was the reaction that he got. These people think their beliefs are far more popular than they are, than they get out of their bubble, and that's the kind of reaction they got. I watched like a full hour of that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
um uh that town hall today the guy got booed the entire time um ruthlessly and and a smart crowd too smart audiences because when he would say that elon did all this waste fraud and abuse they would say well give me an example and he wouldn't be able to give an example and they go well if he actually if you actually believe that we should be routing out waste fraud and abuse like i do this is what the people would say like i do and i'm a registered republican they would say then why would you get rid of the inspector's general
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Why would you get rid of the people at all these offices whose job it was to target waste, fraud, and abuse? And why are you letting this unelected oligarch billionaire, Elon Musk, why are you putting this guy in charge of my personal information? And they have no response. We'll go through the rest.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Okay, real talk. I love food, but I do not love meal planning. Every week I do my best, but often reality hits, work, errands, exhaustion. Suddenly I'm eating leftovers for dinner again. But then I found Marley Spoon and I am officially a meal prep person. I can announce it right now. Not because I suddenly got my life together, but because Marley Spoon did it for me.
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This podcast is sponsored by Marley Spoon and I'm genuinely excited about it because it's helping me fast track my way to eating well without all that stress. And with our code Midas, M-E-I-D-A-S, you could get up to 27 free meals. Here's what I love. Marley Spoon gives you over 100 recipes to choose from every week. We're talking everything.
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It looked incredible, smelled amazing, and more importantly, tasted like something out of a restaurant. And the best part, Marley Spoon just launched their new 15-minute express recipes. Yep, dinner in 15 minutes. So even on nights when I'm feeling extra lazy, I have zero excuses. This new year, fast track your way to eating well with Marley Spoon.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
They have so misread, I'll say, their quote unquote mandate that they think they had because they never had a mandate to begin with. Under 50% of the country actually ended up voting for Donald Trump. There never was a mandate. They acted like they got like 70% of the vote, and they pushed forward some of the most dangerous, damaging policies.
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And not only just major changes, but changes that uniquely affect people's personal lives. Like if you're going to position yourself as the party of small government, as the part of the party of
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
we're gonna leave you alone let you live your life and then all the sudden you are literally the guy responsible for somebody's mom or dad losing their job or someone's brother or sister losing their job all the crap that we are seeing losing their health care whatever it is then this gets real personal, real fast for folks. And that's what's happening.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
I think they've so overextended what they think they've had. I think the people are already turning on them. I mean, we showed that poll before. The approval for Elon Musk's actions was in the 20s. in that it was like 26% or something like that. That means that it's even digging into the MAGA people aren't liking what they are seeing, which is absolutely astonishing.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Do you know how bad you have to be to have in the 20s approval for what you were doing? Now I think it's important that people blink a little bit, that what Elon is doing is what Trump is doing. And I think, you know, we got to be putting two and two together there. But we are seeing this outrage at all these town halls of people who are already fed up with what is going on.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
I think when Trump doubles down on this sort of rhetoric, I think when they continue to insult hardworking Americans, federal employees, veterans. I think when they continue to take actions and tell Elon to be more aggressive with the 26% approval rating, I think this is all, this house of cards is going to continue to come crumbling down.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
People are going to be outraged as they are now, but to next levels. The anger is going to increase. You already feel it in the streets. You already feel it in these town halls. And I don't think they understand exactly what they're doing because I think they brainwash themselves with these algorithms as well. But they're in for a rude awakening right now. I'm telling you right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
I think that thing is the Gulf of America. I don't know. I guess that's it. Here's the thing, Jordy. They pick these dumb ass things like Gulf of America, right? They pick gold at Fort Knox. They do things that are just idiotic distractions, like kind of dangling the keys, as I've said in the movie Up.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
you know score squirrel right they want to divert people's attention to some place to try to make them forget that they are robbing them blind that they are taking away their jobs but this is just too personal for people where that crap isn't working anymore it may work during a campaign but it doesn't work when reality hits and they tried this strategy once before when did they try it they tried it during the coven 19 pandemic they tried to tell everybody everything was okay
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
The numbers are going to go down to zero. We're all cool. We're all chill here. Everything's fine. But guess what? Eventually, reality catches up to their bullshit. And we're seeing that happen right now. Reality is catching up quick, very quick to what they are doing. And so those are the distractions, right? The renaming of the place, the Fort Knox. I mean, Fort Knox is audited like every day.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Every year. It's like ridiculous. Is he a national treasure? Is he Nicolas Cage now going to find the gold? It's just like he plays into people's kind of lizard conspiratorial brains. And then while he gets them distracted with, is there going to be gold in the vault when I open up the vault? Maybe I'll get used to it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
gold yeah maybe you give me some money maybe i give you some gold and meanwhile he's screwing people but but you know we're seeing people rise up and like i said before make these people scared make them scared everywhere they go with the facts with the truth peacefully but make them afraid of your voice the same way that they are afraid of mega people
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
The Doge rebates, where Elon's basically saying, you know, when we actually find all this money, when we uncover all the fraud, waste, and abuse, guess what's gonna happen, folks? We're gonna give you checks of up to $5,000.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
All I got to say is you'd have to be like a complete idiot, right? Like just a total moron, idiot. Like whoever made that deal, Trump made it sound like that guy was a big fat idiot is all I'm saying.
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Who could let them rob us blind like this?
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Yeah, definitely not. Please, please leave them alone, Ben. You know, the reporter responded to that Pete Hegseth clip from the Department of Defense rapid response account. So silly that they have all these accounts, but whatever. I'll get to that in a second. But he wrote the following. To be clear, I asked why he selected a quote, underqualified nominee.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Dan Cain does not meet the legal requirements to be chairman and would need a waiver. Cain is a retired three star and will need to be brought back to service and then promoted in order to get the job. So that was the actual question that the reporter was getting at. They tried to do some sort of sick burn to get back to him. Didn't answer the question because what they're doing is indefensible.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
But I think their whole strategy as we see it is that they view reality as malleable. This has been the Donald Trump thing from back in 2016 and before. They view reality as just something that's an inconvenient thing that's in the way that we could change. We can mold public opinion, which is why they put such a emphasis on the propaganda.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
And they view their propaganda as more important than the actual actions that they are taking. So the actual actions that they are taking are dangerous. They're incompetent. They are ruining people's lives. They could likely throw the country into a recession. We're probably going to see some dramatic job losses on future job reports. There's going to be mass unrest.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
We're already seeing prices skyrocketing. We're seeing all these horrible things, all these horrible things happening. But they think as long as we can control the narrative, especially online, we can control the populace, which is why they have all of these various accounts, rapid response for every department, and why they treat them like they are a MAGA influencer.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
By the way, I wouldn't even be shocked if they put one of those MAGA influencers in charge of these accounts, but they've given away the game in recent weeks, especially when you had Jesse Waters go the other day. I mean, he was like, it's... What? It's an asymmetrical war. We get it on Twitter. Elon boosts it. Then we talk about it on Fox. Then it's in the paper the next day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
By the time they even catch up to it, guess what happens? We're already on to the next one. He admitted that on the air. That's the strategy that we've been telling you guys that they've been doing. But Jesse Waters just said it out loud that that is their strategy. The White House is employing the same strategy here, and we're going to see this over and over again, just lies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
That's why I'm urging you all, do not take White House comments, official White House statements, as the truth. If they say, Zelensky agreed to X, Y, and Z, don't believe it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
If they say, we just got a deal on this plate, do not believe anything you see unless you see it reported independently outside of them, unless you have confirmation from the other sides, because this whole operation, this whole house of cards relies on these propaganda platforms, which is why Elon Musk was willing to spend the amount of money he spent on Twitter.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
because they know that that is their one trick pony in order to have success here and by success they may i mean by controlling the people and pushing forward their horrific agenda and so you know i'm happy though that they were breaking through the propaganda right now we're breaking through the propaganda here with this network reaching more people we're breaking through the propaganda by seeing people take to these town halls take to these protests and we're gonna have to see more of it people are gonna have to be talking
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
People are going to have to be spreading the word and it's going to have to get personal for people and people are going to have to share their personal stories. You know, somebody asked me the other day, you know, on like a TikTok live that I was doing, they said, but I don't have like followers. So like if I went to a town hall and.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
that spoke, talked to my representative, no one's going to see it. I said, well, send it to me. And I want everybody to know that we got your back here at the Midas Touch Network. We want to be uplifting your voices. So if you go to one of these town halls and peacefully push back at your representative, We want to be the ones who help you get that out to the masses.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
And we need everybody in this community. Anytime you see these stories of resistance out there to spread these stories, to show that there are people out there all across the country who are not okay with it, despite what social media wants to feed you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
usmca oh that idiot got it got it you know i said this in the last episode ben and by the way great to be with you guys great to be with everybody out there everybody listening and welcome to all of our new listeners um you know i said this to you last time we can no longer think about the united states of america as being the good guys and i said i understand we definitely weren't our
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
the good guys 100% of the time throughout history. But in many respects, we could always at least look to that guiding star and say that America is trying to be the good guys in the world, is trying to fight for democracy, is trying to uphold our values at the very least, that that is the direction we are headed.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
I mean, honestly, I think at the end of the day, when we look back on Doge, hopefully we all get out from under this, and I do believe we will be able to.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
I think we're going to see that Doge was a massive net negative on the United States of America, that it destroyed the United States' productivity, that it destroyed, obviously, jobs, and that it actually ended up costing the country more for this ridiculous vanity project that nobody asked for.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Now, we have made a sharp turn towards autocracy, towards authoritarianism, and Europe right now knows that they cannot trust the United States to be a reliable ally, if an ally at all.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
And so I think that's why it's important that Emmanuel Macron thought that it was important to come and sit down next to Donald Trump just like that and instantly fact check and humiliate Donald Trump on these issues, putting forward the actual facts as to what is going on. And that's why we're seeing these coalitions building across the across the world right now.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Let's look at the bright side though, Ben. I think that puts you next in line to run Department of Defense under the next Democratic administration. Yeah.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
that are against the United States. Essentially, the world is saying to the U.S., oh, you want to be isolationists? You don't want to have anything to do with the world order that has existed since the end of World War II that has left the world in relative safety? You don't want to be a part of this anymore? You don't want to be a part of this? Guess what? We're going to kick you out.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
You know that it is terrifying them when they see these sorts of actions because they're trying to get out in front of it and discredit the protesters now. I'm not sure if you've seen some of the messages that people in MAGA have been posting online, but they're like, no, this can't be real.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
that's a Republican area, those are definitely just Democratic activists, or they would say Democrat activists who are just invading these spaces to yell, da, da, da. They can't let people realize that, oh, there are other people like me out there who have these strong feelings, who hate what is going on right now, who despise what Donald Trump is doing, what Elon Musk is doing.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
So they need to act like this is some sort of fake thing. That shows you that it's getting to the heart of everything, because like I said earlier, Their entire operation is not a governing operation. It's a propaganda operation. And these things that pierce through the bubble, quite literally in these red bubbles across the country, are the biggest threat to them imaginable.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Their voters rising up, people hearing from them. and make your voice heard if for those of you who have ever said listen i am a blue dot in a red district or a red state what can i do well if you have a friend or two and you want them for a support group go and bring them to a town hall with you and make your voice heard um this is how we're going to be able to change things here this is
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
Same way Midas is a people powered movement. We need a people powered movement out there on the streets every single day, pushing back, rising up. And that's what we are seeing. And I want to see a whole lot more of it. Make them afraid.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
We're not going to rely on you then. We're going to form our own version of NATO without you, I guess, is what the likely new German chancellor was saying yesterday. We're not going to... We're going to have to get used to a NATO-less world. We're going to have to make our own organizations. We're going to have to figure out our own plan. The United States is not going to be involved in it.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
If the U.S. wants to hang with Kim Jong-un or Vladimir Putin or whatever, do it. Do whatever you want. But the free world is going to stick up for the rest of the free world, whether the United States wants to be a part of it or not.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
And so we are seeing right now this resistance from overseas as well of all these world leaders getting together to actually push back and showing that, by the way, Europe, the EU is bigger than the United States. They have more people. They have more things. They could actually push back if they remain united.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
And I think they are realizing that they actually have to in the wake of Donald Trump's actions, especially over these past few days. Always what's new.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
It reminds me of when a corporation does stock buybacks and then ends up laying off a whole bunch of employees. That's kind of exactly what we're seeing, but in the government. And that's why I know people have often said stuff like, the government should be run by like a business and Donald Trump's a businessman. Well, no, it actually shouldn't. There are reasons that it's not.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
And these are all vital jobs to keeping our country going. And when you get rid of these jobs, you are not really doing anything to the budget whatsoever. It's probably costing more for just Doge to exist. Then also think about all the litigation that's going to come from this. And we'll get into some of the litigation later in the show.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
But these lawsuits are going to end up costing the government lots of money. And I'm willing to bet that the lawsuits from these employees who have been illegally fired is actually going to cost the US government substantially more than these mass layoffs. Plus, there's, of course, the economic effect of taking away people's livelihoods who are then injecting that money
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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into the economy, supporting their families, sending their kids to good schools. You're ripping people's lives away from them in the cruelest way imaginable. And you are treating them like dirt. The way they are treating these people is just absolutely appalling to me. But the thing that gives me a little bit of hope right now is I'm looking around the whole country even in these red districts.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/25/25
And I am seeing people speaking out. I am seeing people who are already fed up. You know, I saw James Carville the other day. He said, you know what? The Trump administration is already collapsing. And he predicted like a full-on collapse within 30 days, right? I agree with him that the Trump administration is collapsing. When you look at these poll numbers, it's absolutely devastating for Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
absolutely i'm sorry i just wanted to add this the behavior is too erratic right now like erratic in a way that that honestly the the only conclusion again that i i keep drawing here and i'm not giving him an out with this and i'm not saying this for clicks and like he's not cognitively all there he's just not He says one thing one day, then changes his mind.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
Then he's very aggressive and angry and attacks this person or that person. There's no clear and concise message here other than just like crazy, erratic behavior. And it's something that I think we all just need to continue to really look at. Look, do we honestly think the person, woman, man, chair, TV guy got better over the last five years or worse?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
And so seeing his behavior here, the only conclusion again that I'm drawing here is he's not well, genuinely.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
That is just the coolest. For the audio listeners, Brett was showing some protest signs, and
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
just shout out to all the folks man everyone out there on the ground and then a special shout out to the Midas Mighty you know bringing bringing the love and passion that we talk about here to the streets thank you guys so much I mean it means the world and it's incredible one quick housekeeping note before we get started we're going to do something new on the Midas Touch YouTube channel the Midas Touch Network this week
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This episode of the Midas Touch podcast is brought to you by Climate First Bank, where you bank matters, not just for your money, but for your community, the planet and its future. Climate First Bank is the world's first FDIC insured values based digital community bank founded to combat the climate crisis, uses your deposits to support investments in the things that you care about.
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affordable housing, good schools, and clean, renewable energy. You can do better and fight the climate crisis by banking better. It's easy. Choose Climate First Bank. Visit climatefirstbank.com slash Midas to learn more. That's climatefirstbank.com slash M-E-I-D-A-S. Member FDIC. Let's go. Shout out to our sponsors. Links in description of both the YouTube and the audio. Click the links.
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Use the codes. Let them know we sent you. And real quick, just remember that housekeeping note that I said from earlier. I think I did an okay job describing that. But shout out to everyone that's a member of this YouTube community. Thanks for being members. We really appreciate it. And even beyond the emojis, we're going to do an exclusive video for our members only.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
Feel free to become a member now. It doesn't matter which tier or gift a membership to somebody so they can check out the video. That's going to be released Friday, Saturday, later this week. So you can check it out then. Benji, where to next?
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
we're going to do a members only video so hey we're always trying to figure out how to you know give back to this community especially the folks who are investing into the into the network and helping out so much you know we know times aren't easy and so we're super appreciative i know we do the emojis in the chat one of the things though that we're trying to up our game now to give back
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
to the members is we're going to do a members-only video, TBD on the content. It's going to come at the end of the week. Become a member right now here on the Midas Touch Network, or you could gift memberships to folks so they could check out this exclusive video that we'll post here on YouTube later this week. And so super excited for that. Benji, where do you want to start off today?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
Exactly. Exactly. For the audio listeners, in that clip that we just played of Hegseth, one of the things that you didn't get to see is, and brothers, did you guys pick up on this too? He sort of breaks the fourth wall, like he's responding to the reporter. And then for part of his answer, he turns and looks directly into the camera. Well, you know why?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
It's because he's speaking to an audience of one. He's defending himself now in front of Donald Trump and Donald Trump only. And so he's in full defense mode. He's flailing. He doesn't know what to do. So now he's trying to bring that Fox News quote, news charisma that Donald Trump fell in love with and endeared him so much and bring that so Trump sees that and says, okay, I respect this guy.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
He's a fighter. The guy looks like an absolute putz.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
And in addition to the statements, Brett, it's also his actions that are putting our troops in danger by conducting all of these highly classified conversations over these signal chats that more and more keep coming out about. I mean, the guy doesn't care. He could say he cares about the troops, but all of his actions and everything that we've seen proves otherwise.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
millions of americans grind or clench their teeth at night and most don't even know that they're doing it i was one of them if you have jaw pain or headaches after a night's sleep there's a high chance you grind or clench your teeth teeth grinding also known as bruxism or tmj is generally caused by stress and it can cause serious damage such as eroding away your enamel and broken teeth which leads to expensive dental bills
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
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They send you an at-home impression kit to create molds of your teeth. You send those back to Remy and Remy's dental team will make your custom fit guards and send them right back to you. Remy's guards are so comfortable to wear that most customers forget they're even wearing them.
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Plus, with a 45-night satisfaction guarantee, you can try it risk-free, sleep better, and decide if it's the perfect fit. If not, Remy's got you covered. Look, I've done the whole Remy process. It's phenomenal. Their team is incredible. The product is perfect. Definitely check it out if you fit this category.
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Thank you, Remi, for sponsoring this episode.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
Let's go. Shout out to our sponsors. Links in description of both the YouTube and the audio. Use the links. Use the codes. If there's an exit survey, let them know we sent you. That's also very helpful. And I'm only doing it again just because it's brand new, never before done on the Midas Touch YouTube channel.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
Just reminding everybody, we're doing an exclusive members-only video later on this week. Become a member right now. It's in the chat. You just hit that little dollar sign thingy and you could become a member yourself, any tier, or you could gift the membership to somebody. And that video is going to be made exclusive for the Midas Touch YouTube channel.
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Absolutely best case scenario. That is so freaking cool. Like the coolest.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
Absolutely. The energy is palpable. It's truly inspiring. And folks are motivated. I can't say it any better than you just did, Brett. So I just want to say thank you all for just meeting the moment every single day. It's awesome to see.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
Can't get enough Midas? Check out the Midas Plus sub stack for ad-free articles, reports, podcasts, daily recaps from Ron Filipkowski, and more. Sign up for free now at MidasPlus.com.
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Absolutely. Look, Trump is an unhinged maniac, and the guy is just an idiot. I don't feel bad saying that just so bluntly because he is. He has no idea what he's doing, nor does he care to actually try and help the American people.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/22/25
what he's doing right now is hurting americans greatly it's hurting the world quite frankly because when america is weaker the world is weaker and trump's making us looking like the laughing stock of of the entire world right now he has no clue what he's doing he surrounded himself by a bunch of yes men that also have no idea what they're doing And what's that creating?
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Just absolute chaos, again, at the expense of the American people.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
By the way, I think you say his name Yamas, but I'm going to allow the – I say it. I'm going to allow the mispronunciation because of his disrespect to our – but here's something else though. I mean, you got to remember, right? NBC is the reason why Donald Trump is president. It's just a fact.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
NBC built this mythical persona of Donald Trump which is not reflective of reality by creating The Apprentice, by editing Donald Trump to look a certain way, by putting this image into people's minds of him as a successful businessman even when the facts do not match that to say the least. And so NBC is the reason for all this.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And I think they get a pass, you know, because they have MSNBC and people think that's like, you know, a network that is on their side. The truth is, none of these corporate networks are on your side. Like, it's just it's just the fact it's not to say that there aren't people I, you know, I think do great work at these networks like there certainly are.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
But all these corporate structures are all designed to just make as much profit as possible. And they've done so by building up some really villainous people, including Donald Trump.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
How about the fact that Trump is maybe like the only president to not actually have his hand on the Bible while he was being sworn in? Noticeably forgot to do that part despite all of the talk that he has out there.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
Everything he was doing was so petty. I mean, the inauguration speech was – I think we all expected it to be dark. I mean, this is the guy who –
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
uh led the first time with american carnage and this was a version of american carnage um and the speech was not a speech that a president gives it was a speech of a very petty very small very tiny individual very vindictive uh the opposite of gracious uh just absolutely disgusting from start to finish
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
felt more like a trump campaign rally at its most deranged than a president of the united states actually taking the oath of office and those immediate actions uh relating to millie are a perfect example of that trump's comments about nancy pelosi um where he said that she's a criminal i mean he said that nancy pelosi is guilty and that she's committed criminal offenses
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
It shows you the vindictive nature and the presidency of retribution that we are about to see. And that's why I get so frustrated by the media's endless bashing of Biden to the very end. And I'm sure they're going to continue to speak about this too over the next few weeks because once they get started on a Biden topic, they can't shut up about it. They need to talk about it all the time.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
Of course, not the accomplishments, just, you know, when they want to hate on it. And so obviously, President Biden today did his last minute pardons. He pardoned members of his family and he pardoned the January 6th committee. He pardoned the officers who spoke at the January 6th committee and. The media was very vicious on Biden for this. They were like, oh, yes, we get to attack him.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
How dare you? And I saw some other kind of online networks and stuff rush to be like, this is disgusting. How can you be pro-democracy and do this? What a vile person. What a vile thing to do. How dare you, Joe Biden? At a certain point, you have people who are like, why is President Biden, why is he treating Donald Trump like a normal person?
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
Why is he even meeting him with grace, inviting him into the Oval Office, shaking his hands, having tea with him in the morning? Why is he doing that? And President Biden is a guy who believes in tradition. He believes in the office. And we asked him about that. He explained it to us in Ben's interview with him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
But then he goes and he does the things that actually show that he does view this incoming Trump administration as a threat, that it's not just bluster, that it's not just campaign rhetoric.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And when you see President Biden issuing these last-minute pardons to people like Liz Cheney, to people like the other people on the January 6th committee, the officers, his family, et cetera, you can't help but feel –
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
That's like an ominous very ominous thing and that President Biden is doing that because he, I think rightfully expects the absolute worst from this incoming administration, and he wants to while he has the power, he wants to protect those people who actually stood up and defended our democracy.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
rather than look back and see the Trump administration at the very least bleed these people dry, torture them for the rest of their lives in legal paperwork and money and bills, destroy their lives because that's what Trump's plan was here. And so President Biden goes, I have a way that I'm going to prevent this harassment.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
i'm going to prevent this these acts of retribution i'm going to take it and then in the same day while you have all these media networks yelling at biden for doing this by the way i hate that biden had to do it i hate that he had to do it and i had mixed feelings on the idea of doing it because none of these people are guilty these are all patriotic americans who serve their country in the best way possible but i understand a hundred percent why he does it but while president while the media is bashing biden
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
What is Donald Trump saying? He is calling the people who Biden did not issue pardons to criminals. He is hinting that he is going to prosecute them. He is carrying out his retribution against people like General Milley, who President Biden did pardon in other ways by removing his painting. So you're seeing the actions of retribution. You're seeing the rhetoric.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
You are seeing even all these officials in the Republican Party. And I saw their tweets even last night. Some of these Republican Congress people
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
tweeting like buckle up democrats we're coming for you you better lawyer up we're about to bring the hell of the legal system on you you put it all together you have to realize that what we're dealing with here is serious it's not just rhetoric we have to take donald trump at his word when he says that he is going to enact retribution
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
on his political enemies and so president biden did take him on his word and honestly like enough of the media jumping on every single move i wish i wish president biden did not have to do any of this and it makes me sick that he had to do it it doesn't make me feel good that he had to do it but i completely understand the need because these are not normal times and i don't understand why these networks cannot accept that fact it is maddening
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
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doing well it's great to see everybody um you know very dark day certainly but i want to thank um everybody out there for joining us earlier today for the puppy and kitten inauguration and we opted as a network here to not air the inauguration live um and we opted instead to go head to head with the inauguration with some counter programming with some puppies and kitties.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And then that evolved into having some cute goats and pigs and a bunch of all sorts of animals. And you all submitted your animals. But even more importantly than that is that this incredible community raised more than $80,000 for the Humane Society, who they're doing incredible work helping animals affected by the fires here in Los Angeles. I want to thank you all.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
I mean, that was beyond our wildest expectations. We set our initial goal at $10,000 saying, you know, maybe we'll be able to raise $10,000. Wouldn't that be incredible? And then we had to keep increasing the goal. And you could see that we have it going during this live as well. People could still donate to the Humane Society.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
They treat it like a joke. I saw the way they reported it. They were like, oh, look at this wacky dude. It's a meme. He's selling it. I mean, it's, in my opinion, pretty clearly a scam, what we're seeing. And we're just seeing corruption and scams and grifts at their highest levels that we've ever seen in our entire lives. And just the message this sends in so many different ways.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
First off, Ben, I agree. I think crypto is obviously here to stay. And I think that there are folks out there who want crypto to be viewed legitimately. These meme coins do everything but that. These meme coins delegitimize the entire cryptocurrency industry. But people, like the people who are standing behind Donald Trump at the inauguration today, love this because it's completely unregulated.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
They can move money around basically secretly in large sums of money and transfer wealth and create fake wealth out of nothing, despite having zero benefit to the economy whatsoever. It's also got to be just...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
We figured why not just leave it going for whoever else wants to donate. But thank you for turning what was a dark day, bringing some light to it here, doing it for a good cause. And we're very grateful. That being said, we got to report the news. We got to stay on top of everything. And we need to make sure that we are all prepared for what's ahead.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
Honestly, I know we're so far past this point, but just think of kids growing up today and in the past when you tried to teach a kid the value of a dollar and that you work hard, you make money, and then you see these people who they may look up to basically scamming their way into becoming billionaires overnight with these get-rich-quick schemes. Do you think they're going to value...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
actually working hard and trying to contribute to our society? Or are you going to create this whole new generation of people trying to grift and scam their way to the top and do what people like Elon do, what people like Vivek, like Trump? They're going to view it in that mold. They're going to think that this is how you gain success. And quite frankly, at this moment in time, they're right.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And I think that the issue is that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
the president biden the former sec all them they just wanted to regulate these industries like ben was saying before but the reason why these oligarchs who are hanging around donald trump like them and it's not just because you you know you know the stock market's up they've had record profits over the past few years like they should love them but now all of a sudden
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
they're getting a green light to just smash through any regulate regulations don't exist anymore rules don't exist anymore they could just become richer and richer and richer and screw regular people over with no consequences and they appreciate having that ability having that open season as long as they're nice to donald trump they get to do whatever the heck they want and we see that with this tick tock situation as well with the ceo of tick tock
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
the way he was sucking up to donald trump as we saw this entire tick tock situation emerge where tick tock decided that they were going to go dark um before donald trump took office after uh you know the ceo had had a meeting with donald trump recently and was at the inauguration today and of course the it was a bipartisan bill that had banned tick tock actually this started of course back in 2020 when donald trump wanted to ban tick tock not for national security reasons donald trump wanted to ban tick tock because tick tockers were being mean to him
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And TikTokers, remember, they reserved all the seats that Tulsa, Oklahoma rally, and Trump gave a rally in front of like an empty crowd during his 2020 campaign. So Trump was butthurt by that. And he decided that he was going to ban TikTok because his feelings were hurt. And, you know, there certainly are actual national security implications of TikTok.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And when this Ukraine funding bill was coming and the Republicans were holding it hostage and saying, no, we're not going to fund Ukraine, ultimately Republicans put into this bill
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
this i would call it a poison pill but it didn't end up poisoning the bill but they put in this tick tock ban in this bill so if you want ukraine aid then you also got to vote for this tick tock ban that's how this all started and i think a lot of people forget about that are democrats on the hook for this also yes 100 but at the end of the day also more republicans did vote and end up voting for this and uh the bill passed uh tick tock was under this ban and divest they took a very firm stance that they were not going to divest
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
which quite frankly, and as someone who enjoys TikTok a lot and likes the app and thinks it's a great place for expression and small businesses and creators, I do think it's quite suspicious that TikTok refused to dish off the algorithm to an American company when it would have enriched them a lot. I think that speaks a little to their intention.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And so I'm excited to go through the news with you. And on that note, I'll turn it over to Jordi.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
But then to pull this and run around to try to put... held Donald Trump as a savior in order to curry favor with Donald Trump and save the business. To me, that was, it made me feel almost dirty going back on TikTok and seeing those messages that they had basically just fawning over Donald Trump, playing to Donald Trump's ego in a way that I thought was quite manipulative
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
You know, and quite frankly, just straight up propaganda coming from China through to TikTok in order to heap praise on Donald Trump because her adversaries certainly know how to, you know, how Donald Trump operates. So we saw these messages on TikTok.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
um that were just fawning over uh trump like the first one um saying that uh tick tock has been banned and unfortunately this means you can't use it we're fortunate that president trump has indicated that he will work with us on a solution and then when it came back um not even 24 hours later they said as a result of trump's efforts tick tock is back in the us you can now do all the things you love well trump wasn't in office yet
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
President Biden had already told them that he wasn't going to act on any sort of enforcement for this law. Trump had already said that he wasn't going to do anything for TikTok. So they just tried to give Trump this kind of savior complex, give him this win for no reason other than to just try to save their company and to just manipulate the public in this very kind of devious way.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
The funny thing that I've noticed, because I'm on TikTok quite a lot, I post a lot on TikTok, follow us there. I like TikTok as a platform, I do. But the TikTokers I think were a bit smarter than they were anticipating. And the TikTokers are pushing back and they see the open propaganda. And I know a lot of them are disgusted.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And so a lot of the people, the TikTok creators I know have also taken kind of brief hiatuses from TikTok and protest. One of the funny memes that have been going around TikTok are people praising President Obama for saving TikTok just as an FU to the owner of TikTok and to Trump to say, thank you, President Obama, for saving this because it's just so ridiculous, obviously.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And so you see this sort of resistance happening on that app as well. But this is what the birth of this presidency has brought us. just endless scams, endless grifts, endless psychological operations. It's all designed to confuse.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
At the end of the day, it's all designed to make those people who sat behind Donald Trump at this inauguration and the people like them and the people who work with them, the oligarch class, the billionaire class, it's all designed to make them richer. It's all designed to take away
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
The things that are designed to protect you, the laws that are designed to protect you, the regulations that are designed to protect you, all under the guise of freedom, right? They're going to use the iconography. They're going to use the language. Oh, we need more freedom here. We're going to need less regulation. Look past the BS.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
Look past, as Ben says, the weapons of mass distraction and look at what Donald Trump is actually doing. Look at what these people around him are actually doing because their actions, sure as hell, speak a lot louder than their words on all these issues.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
NBC liked that clip so much also that they put it on their social media accounts. They were proud of that. The clip we just played was from their TikTok. So they reported the inauguration in that way. And then they were like, this is great. This is gold. Let's now post this on our social media account because this is what folks have to be seeing right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And it's just such an indictment of the media as it stands right now. And I think one of the most disheartening things that we've seen in this sort of Trump 2.0 era has been the – immediate capitulation. And that is honestly even putting it nicely to call this capitulation of all the powerful people who you would expect to be actually pushing back against people like Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
So whether it is the the owners of corporations and companies who have employees that they should be worrying about protecting and policies and values that they claim to uphold, or whether it's the fourth estate, the corporate media, whose job quite literally it is to hold people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
like Donald Trump and those in power accountable, or whether it's those like TikTok, you know, all these various people. You see this just complete and utter capitulation to Donald Trump. And right now, there are very few voices out there who are standing strong, who remain unafraid of to actually report what's going on, unafraid to actually counter and challenge this incoming administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And that's why independent media is so crucial at this time, because on the other side, you have the NBCs of the world, the ABCs of the world, the Washington Post of the world, you name it, who have just completely bowed down to fascism.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
And they used to call it FU money, right? Like, they used to be like, I want so much money. I want FU money. What's FU money if you can't say FU? Like, I don't understand.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
The hat seems quite strategic though, if you look at it. Because Trump here in this picture that we're showing from this video clip, Trump tried to greet Melania with a kiss on the cheek. As he got within proximity of Melania, the hat acted as a blocker, blocking Trump, so he had to give this air kiss.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS on Day 1 - 1/20/25
Yeah, yeah. Perhaps it was strategic from Melania to ensure that there was at least about eight inches of separation at all times.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Have you heard about the crime that the FBI calls house stealing? It's a growing real estate scam targeting American homeowners and their equity. And here's how it works. Criminals forge your signature on one document. Use a fake notary stamp, pay a small fee, and file with your county. Just like that, your home title has been transferred out of your name.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Then they take out loans using your equity or even sell your property. And you won't even know it's happened until you start getting collections or foreclosure notices. So let me ask you, when was the last time you checked your home title? Now, if you're like me, the answer is never. And that's exactly what scammers are counting on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
That's why you need to stop what you're doing right now and find out today if you're already a victim. Just use my promo code MITUS at HomeTitleLock.com and you'll get a free title history report to find out if your title is still in your name. Now, when you sign up, you'll also receive 14 days of free million dollar triple lock protection.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
That's immediate 24-7 monitoring of your property's title, urgent alerts if there are ever any changes, and if fraud should happen, their US-based restoration team will spend up to $1 million to fix the fraud and restore your title at no additional cost. Get peace of mind now at HomeTitleLock.com, promo code Midas, or click the link in the description. That's HomeTitleLock.com, promo code Midas.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Let's face it, after a night of drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. Now, I thought I had to make a choice. I can either have a great night or a great next day. Now, that was until I found pre-alcohol.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
zbiotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic it was invented by phd scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking now here's how it works when you drink alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut now it's a buildup of this byproduct not dehydration that's the blame for rough days after drinking pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night, drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Now, every time I have pre-alcohol before drinks, I notice a difference the next day. Even after a night out, I can confidently plan on having a great next day without worrying.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Look, I won't lie, I was a bit on the fence about pre-alcohol initially, but then while hanging out with some friends in D.C., I gave it a shot, and look, believe me, it's the real deal. So I first gave pre-alcohol a try when I was at a wedding, I drank it before my first espresso martini, and you wouldn't believe how on top of my game I felt the very next morning.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Spring is here, which means more opportunities to celebrate warmer weather. And before drinks on the patio, that tropical vacation, or your best friend's wedding, don't forget your Z-Biotics pre-alcohol. Drink one before drinking and wake up feeling great the next day. Go to zbiotics.com slash Midas to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Midas at checkout.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Zbiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money. No questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash Midas and use the code Midas at checkout for 15% off. Let's go. Shout out to our sponsors. Links in the description of both the YouTube and the audio. Click the links. Use the codes. Let them know we sent you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Benji, wait, wait. Nice shirt, big bro. I like that green shirt. You look really good on that. Great shirt, great shirt. Thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Let's go. Links in description of both the YouTube and the audio. Use the links, use the codes, let them know we sent you. Benji, real quick before we move on here, I just wanted to reflect on that clip that you played right before break. When you see President Biden speak about, you know...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
just his legacy and what that means to him and how he sees in the direction of his country going and that he has hope i mean it really it really hits me at my core he genuinely believes it and it motivates me and i think it motivates us here at this network to make sure that we we we make that you know a true reality here beyond the politics of it all like not that he's a democrat or or whatever he's just a good person he's a good human being and
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
And for whatever reason, like legacy media, as you astutely pointed out, hates that. They hate that steady hand on the wheel. And for the life of me, it breaks my heart that that's the relationship that the media thinks that they need to be so antagonistic towards a true leader, a truly great human being, like someone who actually cares about this country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
But even beyond that, like someone who just cares about other people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
go to church every sunday when my sorry just quick when my son was born he wrote me a letter congratulating me on the birth of my son i don't know if i've even really spoken about this publicly like went out of his way to write me a letter that he signed personally and it's just it's someone that really cares he didn't have to do that why i gotta say this journey other than the fact that he's just a good human being and to see the tappers of the world go so hard
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
against someone who's just such a genuine person and write these smut books, these smear books with secondhand anonymous sources. Naomi Biden, she came out, Joe Biden's granddaughter came out, said she read the books. And she said, there's just anonymous sources just sprinkled throughout these books. Well, hey, I'm a primary source. I interviewed him here in Pittsburgh.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
You know why he was here in Pittsburgh? Because he was at the steel unit, because he wanted to keep the jobs in the United States and met with the steel workers here. Because he cared to keep the jobs here in America. Because he cared about the workers here in Pittsburgh and what they were doing. Why? Because he's a good human. Because he actually cares about this country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Ben, you interviewed him. I was at the White House when you interviewed him. It's a competent human being right there. It's someone who truly understands what's needed in this moment. And what is the media? How do they repay him for being just the genuine, authentic version of himself? And honestly, just doing his best to lead this country and doing a damn good job of it. They kill him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
They stab him in the back. They say, F you, Joe Biden. We don't want that. But no, I'm not going to let that weirdo narrative that this legacy media is trying to promote time and time again be the legacy that this man leaves behind. Because what he's leaving behind is truly great. And it's truly, at its core, patriotic.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
And I just wanted to get that off my chest because I was reflecting on all these things as I continue to see this. Sorry, Brett, go ahead.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
Shout out to the Midas Mighty. Can't get enough Midas? Check out the Midas Plus sub stack for ad-free articles, reports, podcasts, daily recaps from Ron Filipkowski, and more. Sign up for free now at MidasPlus.com.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
You sort of get the sense too that the press is intentionally missing the mark. Like they're going up at that plate and they're intentionally striking out with the tee ball right in front of them. And that's because they're scared of their access. They don't want to lose that access that means so much to them. It's no longer about accountability and holding Donald Trump accountable in their eyes.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/20/25
And that's the saddest thing about this. I want the fourth estate to be at its prime and really hitting back hard, but doing so in a way that makes sense and actually just doing their jobs. But to see them get up there every single day and just let the ball just pass them by intentionally. It's infuriating.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Yeah, and Trump, you know, sent like overnight something like 14 posts bragging about his appearance at the Daytona 500, not a single post about any of the disasters. And, you know, from what I hear also, like, I'm not sure they're doing the individual assistance either that people have become accustomed to in the past with these storms.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Remember, it was always the thing, the propaganda move that the Trumpers would always latch onto would be the whole concept of, oh, Biden is only giving the people of North Carolina $750. What the hell? That's it? I'm sending X amount of dollars to Ukraine, and you're only giving them $750? That was the law passed by Congress for immediate assistance for FEMA.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Well, guess what Donald Trump's doing? Apparently giving them $0, nothing, nothing, zero. Because when you go to the website right now for FEMA and you try to apply for individual assistance in these effective areas, it doesn't allow you to.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And so congrats, I guess you went from 750 to 770 with the law at the beginning of the new year and now it's down to zero and no one's gonna talk about that, right? These right wingers aren't gonna talk about that. In fact, Donald Trump wants to dismantle FEMA entirely. rather than actually use it to actually help the people in these places.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And then just the nerve of the gaslighting and the propaganda just with all these events is going to be so ratcheted up. But I think we're gonna continue now in these next few years. And I know that sounds like an eternity,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
But we're going to continue to see the divide right now between the hyper online kind of Trumpers on Twitter who are amplified by like Elon Musk's algorithms and actual real people in the world who have a true hatred for Trump and are being affected by him in their daily lives, including people who voted for him. Like the Elon Musk, the Twitter, that's always going to be the same.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
But I think sentiment and we're already seeing it is going to continue to shift. The shift with Gen Z, Ben, is one of the most wild things that I've seen. Like you see right before the election, Gen Z sentiment about Donald Trump like spike, spike. That's when Trump was on all those podcasts. He was out there post-shooting, all that stuff. Trump Gen Z spiked. After the election, plummeted.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
like like like bottoming out and going down quickly. And I think it's just an interesting dynamic. And it's also enlightening to kind of look at a new generation as well and see what their behavior patterns are. And I think we're seeing Gen Z appears to be pretty reactionary. And and they tend to you know, they didn't know the Donald Trump of four years ago or eight years ago.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
They didn't grow up with that. Now they're getting to see what a Trump presidency actually looks like beyond the bluster, beyond the actual campaigning. And guess what? They don't like it. They don't like that all these advances that Biden actually made for them are now being taken away, whether it be student debt relief or whether it be these policies that they actually care about.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
I think they actually care about equality at the end of the day. I think they actually care about prices. And they thought that Trump wasn't lying when he said all those things. And now it's all just coming out to be just a total fraud.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
JD Vance completely humiliated himself on the global stage and the entire country, quite frankly. And the reception that he got, I've heard from other people also just in Europe that it was viewed just so negatively that people were mocking him, that people were deriding him, that it was like it's being talked about as if it were like one of the worst speeches ever given over there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
like of all time, and is also just incredibly offensive, like to show up in someone's country, criticize them. Note, they never really have any criticism for Russia or any of our adversaries, but it's always attack Europe, attack these people in charge.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And so it's just like, it's a weird new dynamic that we are seeing, but we've talked about this alliance of the autocrats overseas before here, and that's exactly what we're seeing play out right here. And I'm just gonna say, JD Vance has zero right to lecture anybody about free speech whatsoever.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
I don't know how these right-wing MAGA people took this mantle of being the free speech party when they are absolutely anything but it. They are literally the opposite of that, but they just want to be able to say racial slurs all the time and not get in trouble for it, so they call themselves the free speech party. It's such bullshit when you actually just break it down.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Think about any kind of comedy show, any TV show, any musician who has tried to get canceled over the past few years. It's usually Republicans on the side of doing the canceling. Even just over the weekend, last night they did the SNL 50, and they did a sketch with Tom Hanks, where Tom Hanks played a MAGA character named MAGA Doug.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
By the way, a character who he played in 2016, it was on their Black Jeopardy sketch, MAGA got so offended. They were crying about this all night and day. I've seen dozens and dozens of tweets saying that NBC should be arrested, they should be arrested, that Tom Hanks isn't a good actor, that this is vile, they should be taken off the air, no one watches anyway.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And you're like, okay, so who are the snowflakes? You're getting mad about MAGA Doug? That's your whole thing? And then while you have them getting mad about cultural things like that, you have Elon Musk, who's working in our government, actually threatening news organizations with jail time because they're reporting on things he doesn't want them to report on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
So we saw Elon Musk, even just within the past 24 hours, he had a irony of two tweets back to back. The first was like, I want to see if I could find it. The first tweet that he wrote was something along the lines of, let's see, here it is. There's something along the lines of like one of Hitler's first moves was to push, was to purge like the free speech. Here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
One of the first things Hitler did upon gaining power was apply aggressive censorship. So he did that. 20 minutes later, 20 minutes after sending that tweet, he sends this tweet. 60 minutes are the biggest liars in the world. They engage in deliberate deception to interfere with the last election. They deserve a long prison sentence.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Just think about those back to back tweets and then just get, you know, this isn't some random dude. This is a guy who is making major decisions about our government, even if the Trump administration wants to lie to courts about what he's actually doing. He is obviously very intimately involved. He's also
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
threatening basically all the politicians in our country and kind of blackmailing them in many ways. He's holding his money over them, threatening that if they step out of line in any way and don't go along with everything they're doing, he's going to throw all their money at primary challengers and things like that. So you have these Republicans who are running scared.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And it just speaks to the problem, honestly, with money in our country, money in our politics. If you think about it, You know, just allowing money to be in our politics in the way that is being used right now is going to go down in history as the worst decision ever.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
The Citizens United decision is going to, if it hasn't already yet, and this is something that back in the day, President Obama warned against, like, a lot, and he sounded the alarm.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And he was definitely vindicated in sounding the alarm about this decision because it's let the oligarch class, it's let people like Elon Musk use their money to dictate our elections, to control the outcomes, and to threaten our politicians. And I don't think that was ever how this was supposed to work in this country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Plus, they offer amazing accessories to keep you moving throughout the day. My personal favorite, the under the desk treadmill, which I have right here. It's a game changer for staying active while I work.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
have reached an all-time high. What's your administration's egg prices have reached an all-time high?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Wait, wait, wait, wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for it. Ah. Ah. No.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
I guess I should say what I'm doing so the audio listeners don't just hear me making rollercoaster noises.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
A fairly quick read. It was like a five and a half or six minute TikTok. It was literally listing all of Donald Trump's failures. This is one of the biggest self-owns, this document that I have seen in a while.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
I was going to say, Ben, if I saw this, if I saw this on Twitter or social media, I would just assume right off the bat they got hacked. Because this is how the hacks look. This person got hacked. Clearly a fake. Clearly somebody just scamming people. But it's stunning that this is now a legitimate thing that I guess all these MAGA leaders have to do. They all have to grift off their followers.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
So now you have the Argentinian leader, Malay, basically doing what Donald Trump did. And now he's embroiled in this massive scandal in his own country. There could be impeachment hearings now on him out there because people are furious. People lost their money. It's just like...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Receipts are more important than ever, especially when we have this disinformation echo chamber that's pumping out lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. I think it's important that we all flood the zone with the truth as they flood the zone with shit to steal a phrase from Steve Bannon. It's never been more important. So I appreciate you kicking off the show that way.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
The fact that people throughout the world right now don't realize that they are being rug pulled by these greedy, grifty leaders just baffles me. How do you fall for this con? Do we have the video of this goofy dude, Brett, this Hayden Davis?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
That's one of the most batshit things. It's the first time I've actually watched the clip through. That's one of the most batshit things I've ever seen in my life. And by the way, if you're listening to this right now, try to check out the video podcast because you've got to see what the guy looks like also. It just brings the whole thing together.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Jody, all I'm saying is that people should watch the video and make their own judgments about this individual. I'm not passing judgment. I'm saying you watch this. I don't think that leaders of countries should have rug pull crypto advisors. And has any of these meme coins ever worked out? Has anybody ever been like, I'm really happy I invested in that hawk to a coin. That was a smart move by me.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And the truth is, is that that is cutting through right now, as we're seeing in this polling that we'll go through and in some more detail in a little bit. But it's really interesting to see the dynamics already shifting. And you see that the people are now rising up. And I know corporate media doesn't really want to cover like the protests and stuff that's going on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
By the way, this is the crap that the Biden administration was trying to stop, by the way. When they try to act like the Biden administration Democrats are anti-crypto, there may be people who are anti-crypto, but they weren't anti-crypto, like the Biden administration and top Democrats on this issue. They were anti-doing this. They were anti-scamming people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
They wanted sensible regulations the same way that all markets have sensible regulations to prevent people from being scammed like this. And now we have a president who, and these presidents across the world now who are in alliance with him, I guess, who are now using scam tactics in order to steal money from people. I mean, it's the craziest. That video is out of control.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
small i think one of the interesting things though is seeing like how the rest of the free world is reacting to the united states because we have our propaganda centers here and let's not get it twisted i mean this is full-on state propaganda what we have right now we have these billionaires owning these social media networks controlling the flow of information uh we have um fox and oan and newsmax and all these channels the corporate media isn't much better to be honest it's a full we're in like a a
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
a country that is state TV country right now. But when people like J.D. Vance and Donald Trump, when they go overseas and actually have to speak in front of people who haven't been infected by this disease, they look and sound freaking nuts because they are. And like the comparison I made when I was talking to Ben the other day, I said, you know what it reminds me of?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
You know, it's always sunny in Philadelphia, this show. You guys, anyone who watches us watch It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, there may be a small sliver of overlap there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
but it's and it's always sunny in philadelphia when they're crazy in the bar it's one thing and they feed off their crazy energy right once they leave the bar and it's always sunny and go into the real world that's when the real pandemonium breaks out and that's when the differences between their crazy and the actual normal world come to a head and i feel like donald trump and jd vance are living this it's always sunny in philadelphia kind of
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
There are also massive protests today throughout the entire country. President's Day protests of voters, of Americans, concerned Americans going out there protesting the Trump administration, protesting Doge. So I want to I'm just standing in solidarity with all those protesters. And I think we are seeing the American people now rising up. We are seeing even people who protest.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
these episodes where they then go overseas and they look like animals, like they look like just psychopaths to these countries. Then they don't get applauded. Everyone gets offended because they're just like lunatics. When that propaganda structure isn't there, when they don't have Twitter to rely upon and all these various things, it really, it's an emperor has no clothes situation.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And those clothes come off like very quickly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
voted for Donald Trump, who weren't maybe following the election super closely and just heard the lies that we were showing just before. Now they're seeing the reality. It's one thing to blame and just to say, this person sucks, that person sucks, this person's a disaster, this thing's this person's fault, that person's fault. Once you're in charge, you don't get that luxury to be able to do that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
People on Twitter. Posting that on Twitter is also the way to get like the most batshit crazy conspiracy theorists. You know, who are Elon's people with this sort of stuff?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Trump fought all the way to the Supreme Court to not release his taxes. And now he has Elon Musk and his people going from the chair. Rummaging through your financial data, rummaging through your bank accounts and all this stuff. And then there's the fiasco that happened late last week where he fired like 350 people at the Nuclear Security Administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And it turns out they're like the people who work on our most sensitive nuclear weapons and warheads and things like that. And then they were told after the fact, like, those are the people who like handle our nukes. And they were like, oh, shit, really? And then they tried to contact them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
And then they realized they didn't have their personal contact information because they shut off their email addresses. And then they had to rush to try to rehire them back. They rehired like all but I think 28 people back. And like we were saying earlier in the episode, the jobs like that also, they're not like jobs in D.C. per se. Like a lot of those jobs, 30% of them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Yeah, Ronnie Jackson District, Amarillo, Texas. And I think 30% of the people fired were from there. And they work on our nuclear warheads. And so they had to desperately work to get them back. And it's the thing with this whole Doge scam that they're pulling on people. Do you want a more efficient government? Yes. I think everybody should want a more efficient government.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
It's stuff that we pushed here in the past also. Could government agencies all be audited? Sure. That doesn't bother me whatsoever.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
should just decisions be being made without even looking into what the issues are absolutely not should you just turn off the lights on people fire people fire all probationary employees when a lot of those probationary employees are a either new hires who are going to be the future of these administrations or b are people who recently got promoted so technically could be like your best people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
who just got promoted and are on a probationary period. Now you're going to get rid of them. There's no thought being put into this. I know there's that Silicon Valley phrase that's something like move quickly and break stuff. And that's how they do things in Silicon Valley. But it's one thing when you do it on Twitter and all of a sudden you have trouble sending a DM.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
The buck stops with you. whether Donald Trump wants to admit it or not. So he needs to take responsibility for everything that is going on. And I think it is up to the people to hold him accountable and to hold him responsible. And I know that's what we're going to do here every single day. Jordy, what's new on your end? Liking that outfit, looking good today.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
It's another when you fire the people who are overseeing our nuclear weapons arsenal. I'm not okay with breaking stuff when it comes to that. How about investigate, do the research and then fine tune it. That's how this sort of operation should be. And it's not what we're seeing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
Yeah, you got very angry. Your dog's very angry about what's going on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
It's a pattern that we've now been seeing a lot, I think, honestly, throughout knowing Donald Trump in general as a politician in this country, but especially in these first two weeks of his first few weeks of his new administration. You know, I know in the beginning we were starting to call this the rug pull presidency. I think that certainly still applies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
I'm going to add one more name to this presidency, and I'm going to call it the paper straw presidency. Because what I think Donald Trump is doing is a whole lot of symbolic actions that get people's kind of lizard brains going, whether it be the Daytona 500, driving the beast, flying Air Force One, whether it be, yeah, let's change Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America, America, F yeah, let's go.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
whether it's the plastic straw bans, all that sort of stuff plays to people's kind of lizard brains in a way, but isn't doing anything to actually help people's lives. While he's doing all that stuff, he's raiding the government, he's having his Elon Musk lackeys go through your social security accounts, go through...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
your Medicaid, go through your tax filings, your bank account info, all this stuff. He's trying to pass laws or bills to give $4.5 trillion in tax cuts to the billionaires, to the richest Americans. By the way, in that tax proposal that right now Republicans are kicking around, no tax on tips, that's nowhere to be found in it. What were some of the other policies? No tax on social security.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
None of that's there, but you know what is there? Massive tax cuts for billionaires. But guess what? You get to say Gulf of America now. You get to say, yeah, it's the beast, the paper straw presidency. That is what I am seeing so far. And I think in this concept is that concept of all bark, no bite. But I think the important thing is, is that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
um even though it is a paper straw presidency that those actions and the stupidity of his actions especially when it comes to the global stage have real world ramifications as we continue to see like i'm not sure if uh the audience out there saw any of that canada usa game But you saw Canada, once again, booing. Some of our Canadian viewers say, we're not booing America or the United States.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
We're booing specifically the administration. So I'll make the nuance there. Booing the administration, what our country is doing under its new government right now, loudly booing. Then you see the unification of countries like Canada. And shout out to Canada. We stand in solidarity with all of our Canadian viewers and listeners. But seeing Canada during their national anthem
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
all sing in unison regardless of political parties standing arm in arm seeing trudeau at that game like you're seeing the world right now uniting around us and in many ways boxing america out because america has boxed the world out so you see this reciprocal all right you don't want us well we don't want you either and i think europe is trying to find ways right now to work with us in productive ways for the betterment of global security but donald trump keeps saying fu to them
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/17/25
and so we're in a situation now where the u.s due to donald trump's actions is basically more allied right now with russia and with a lot of these other countries that would normally be considered our adversaries while you have the eu canada mexico all these other countries um uniting basically against us and you know if you really want to get into it yeah it looks like you have let me say this looks like a second looks like you have ukraine and europe
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And I want to be clear, if they could say this about Abrego Garcia, if they could so nonchalantly sit there in the Oval Office... The Oval Office of the United States of America sit in our White House, the people's house. They could sit there and go, this person's a criminal. This person's a terrorist. No more questions. We've deemed that to be the facts.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And so they're okay to be shipped off to this El Salvadoran prison camp. I'm telling you, if they could do it to him, they could do it to you. That's all they have to say in their world to justify their actions. And you see that they are more than willing to do so.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
Yeah, well, it looks like never stopping, never quitting, keeping up the pressure. And that's what we're going to do. It's great to be here with you, brothers. It's great to be here with the Midas Mighty, everybody listening right now on audio, on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, everybody watching right now live on YouTube.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
You know, this is another instance where these so-called alarmists, I put that in quotes, the alarmists about Donald Trump are right once again. People have been consistently warning that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. They keep being proven right over and over and over again.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
They were right when they said he wouldn't respect the court rulings, right when he said he'd surround himself with these authoritarian strongmen who undermine our institutions. They were right when they said he'd flirt with these foreign governments to enforce his domestic political agenda.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
Yeah, and it's just the whole thing is horrific to watch. He continues to make an enemy out of Vladimir Zelensky. He calls what Putin did a mistake. I mean, that's the most that he could say, that it's a mistake. And when he says that, he clarifies there that he's not even saying that, which is like maybe the best way that you could even decipher this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And now Trump is out here openly defying a Supreme Court order, floating the idea, at least, of sending US citizens to prison camps in El Salvador. This is the perfect storm of chaos and incompetence that we are seeing with the Trump administration. And there is just so much going on that sometimes it's hard to keep track of it all. He's crashing the economy this day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
He's not even saying that Putin made a mistake. He's saying the mistake was made by Zelensky and it was made by Biden because the war should have never been started. 34 people died in these missile strikes. Putin is essentially laughing in Donald Trump's face, as Donald Trump said in the first 24 hours that he would solve the Ukraine issue.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
He said he was going to be able to just get everybody together and fix this thing. And ever since Donald Trump even started to do anything here, tried to bring the sides together, Putin has just been mocking him with these attacks. The second Donald Trump says, oh, we have an idea about this peace treaty, bombs start falling in Kyiv. Bombs start falling throughout Ukraine.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
It's the same pattern we see over and over again. Now, two children died in these attacks, 34 people total, 117 people were wounded, and Donald Trump can't even build the courage to say that was wrong. He can't even say the minimum here. right now because he's on Vladimir Putin's side. He wants Putin to be killing Ukrainians.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
He wants to embrace dictators like Bukele and Putin and Orban and all these folks around the world. That's who Donald Trump has an affinity for. He does not have an affinity for the free world, for our allies. That's why right now the United States is quite frankly not a rational partner to be dealing with in the world.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
Donald Trump has completely upended the entire world order, the entire global order. And that's why you see leaders like Mark Carney coming out and saying the United States cannot be trusted anymore. That's why you see people from the EU coming out and saying the United States cannot be trusted anymore. This is happening all across the world right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And it's because of one individual, Donald Trump, and those sycophants around him, like the Marco Rubios, who damn well know better. but are embracing fringe figures who are now, I guess, part of the mainstream in Donald Trump's administration, like Laura Loomer, and are just trying to parroting everything that Donald Trump says, which are the most despicable things imaginable.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
He's doing this horrific foreign policy thing this day. But, you know, we try to make sense of it all as best we can here and bring you all the data, all the information, because the truth is, you know, in horrifying days like today, you cannot cover your eyes. You cannot cover your ears. You need to actually understand what is going on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
Right now, the economy is in a really bad place, and we see the dollar falling every single day. We're just seeing a weakening of the United States as people around the world realize that the United States can't be trusted to do business with. And I think that's a first in a very long time that that is the case. It's interesting because I think we have –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
benefit here that we have a global audience, which is something super cool that's just really incredible for us to have. We get to speak with people all across the world. We get to get feedback from people all across the world.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
You need to be able to sound the alarm to your friends and family. And so we're going to help you guys do that here on the Midas Touch Podcast. Jordy, what's new on your end?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
Not that we necessarily needed verification of this, but when Donald Trump says things like America's never been more respected, those are the first people to tell us, everybody here is laughing at you right now. Everyone here is scared of you right now. And this is not the United States that we are supposed to be as a country. And so we do need to fight back against this every step of the way.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
I see some great movements building up every single day, every single week in this country. You see the 50-51 protests all across the country. The protests that we saw April 5th, there's going to be more, I think, later this year. this weekend. And then you see Bernie Sanders and AOC, they're building these crowds, the fighting oligarchy tour. And you see that the people have had enough.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
The people do not want to live in the United States of America. That looks like this. That looks more like North Korea or Russia or Nazi Germany than it does the United States of America. So I'm calling on everybody out here right now to continue to fight back. Because the autocrats want you to give up. They want you to be so overwhelmed with anything.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
But I know that this community will not do that. So keep fighting. Keep pushing ahead. Let's make them more afraid of us than we are of them. And let's continue to spread pro-democracy values and just be a team in this pro-democracy movement.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
The President's reaction to the governor of Pennsylvania, his mansion, was set on fire. Do you have any reaction? I just heard about it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
Yeah, the fight is important because right now what we're seeing, I'm sure a lot of you have heard the saying death by a thousand cuts. We're seeing death by a thousand cuts to the United States of America every single day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And oftentimes, you know, you see the one big event like the Signal event, you see the incident with Zelensky in the Oval Office, you see, you know, the deranged press conferences where he has his stooges asking the questions. Each of those on its own is crazy. And you're like, OK, that was a crazy singular incident that happens. Together, it's that death by a thousand cuts.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And when you stack it all together, you realize, oh, my gosh, America has already transformed into an authoritarian nation. It's happened right before our eyes every single day, a thousand cuts every single day, just destroying the democracy that we all knew and love. Thankfully, there are people out there speaking out.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
Bernie Sanders this weekend, I've seen a few different quotes for the LA crowd. I've seen upwards of like 70,000 people out here in LA for that Bernie crowd in LA. Whatever the number was, it was a whole lot of people. And that was almost just like the start because now Bernie's going to, and Bernie and AOC, they're going to all these Republican areas now. They're going to Montana.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
They're going to Idaho. They were in Utah. I mean, they had so many people in Utah. They filled the Huntsman Arena completely. So we're at 20,000 people in the arena by itself. But that wasn't it. They filled the overflow area. Like, as far as the eye could see, you saw people in the overflow area. That's in Utah, which is supposed to be Red State, Utah.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
Bernie Sanders and AOC able to get those sorts of crowds. And you're seeing people are flocking to their ideas because they're good ideas. They are ideas. that speak about the needs of people, that speak about the cost of living, that speaks about Donald Trump as a dictator, that speaks to people's want for universal healthcare. They are speaking to people right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And it is such a contrast to what Donald Trump is offering and what Donald Trump is doing right now every single day to the American people. And it's giving folks what we really need right now more than anything. And that's hope. Because like I say on the show, the thing that authoritarians want is they want you to give up.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
They want to beat you down so bad that you're only going to wake up in the day and fight back. What AOC right now, what Bernie are doing, they're getting out there. They're keeping people hopeful. They're keeping people strong. And most importantly, when it's not even an election year, they are out there building a movement. That is the most important thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
I see people be like, OK, what does it matter? They got crowds here. They got crowds there. How do you think movements form? You don't just go a week before the election and go, okay, everybody, here are my ideas. Let's go beat them. That's not how it works. You got to build a movement from the ground up.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And that's exactly the kind of work right now that Bernie and AOC and the other folks who are joining the tour are putting in.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
I just think it's all the epitome of evil. And I think it's just so Orwellian to take something that was so clear cut, like a unanimous Supreme Court ruling against the Trump administration, and then try to pretend like it was actually for the Trump administration. I mean, what they're doing right now is what autocratic nations have done throughout history forever.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
They lie, they make up fake justifications for their actions, they try to create their own reality. And I got to say this, what we're witnessing right now, it It's a billion times more evil than anything we saw during the Trump administration. This pales in comparison.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
We've never seen anything like this throughout all of American history, anything at this level of evil that we are seeing right now with this administration. And it is just sickening to the core, especially hearing that Donald Trump is now trying to go after American citizens, trying to send them to these El Salvadoran prison camps, trying to expand this program. which has been so horrific.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
I mean, there was the court filing that the Trump administration put today, filed the other day, and they've been incredibly evasive with the district court judge about this issue where the district court judge was simply asking, is Abrego Garcia alive? Is this person still living? We need proof of life. And even the way they answer those questions are just so offensive to me.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
They say, oh, per what we've heard from the ministry in El Salvador, he is alive. Just all sort of hearsay, not actually saying, yes, we know he's alive. Here's a photo. Here's what we know.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
They are just trying to toy with the courts here and quite frankly, shame on the Supreme Court because this is what happens when you do these decisions like the immunity decision and you give Donald Trump essentially full power to do whatever the heck he wants. Guess what he's going to do? You think he's going to hold back? No, he's going to say, well, I have immunity from doing anything.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
What's the Supreme Court going to do? They've already ruled in my favor on immunity. What are these district courts going to do? What's the DOJ going to do? I control them. You gave Donald Trump carte blanche to do this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
And by the way, at least the time that we are live right now on this, I've not heard the Supreme Court come out with a statement rebuking Donald Trump for his twisting and complete fabrication of the Supreme Court's order. And to me, this is a constitutional crisis that demands a crisis-like response.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/15/25
It demands an emergency response from the Supreme Court to be incredibly clear and unequivocal about this, that Donald Trump is violating their order.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Well, we were just – we were flowing – Just an amount of water that the system couldn't overburden. Just because of how much water these firefighters were utilizing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Yeah, he ended that spaces really quickly once he didn't get the answer he wanted. And he's been one of the biggest spreaders of all these lies, Elon Musk. And literally every official you speak to, every expert you speak to, anyone who knows a little bit about what they're talking about, all says the same thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
The fires were so large, the situation was so vast that it would have overwhelmed any system in the world. And there's not a system that is equipped to handle this as it happened. I mean, as somebody in L.A., to explain it to people out there. This was a giant fire meets a hurricane, basically, with up to 100 mile an hour winds.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
When the winds are like that, you can't fly helicopters over, you can't do hoses. And when they talk about all these fire hydrants and all that stuff, yes, they had water, but fire hydrants designed to get water out of a house, like one house that's burning, not an entire mountain full of homes, not a vast stretch of land like that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
so this is like nothing that people have really ever seen it's something that um quite frankly you know everybody knew was a possibility that could happen if the conditions were right and would just so happen to have um those nightmare conditions hit here in los angeles At the time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And so just to see the constant spreading of the lies, it's honestly, it's a microcosm of the election that we just went through. And the last few years under President Biden and this new kind of media machine since Elon Musk took over Twitter and stuff. It's that the truth really doesn't matter.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
They try to get these lies out there so quickly and the lies spread and the lies actually affect people. They infect people's minds because in times of crisis, people are broken. People are facing trauma. People are looking for someone to blame. They're looking to get angry about something.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And into that void comes Elon Musk saying, you're supposed to get angry at this person or you're supposed to get angry at the Delta smelter or whatever the issue. They should have raked the forest. There's nothing to do with raking the forests, especially when you have 100 mile an hour winds and fire. Nothing, nothing in the world is going to stop that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
But you got to figure out, okay, now what do we do? How do we actually figure out, how do we solve this issue?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And I've seen day in and day out, the LA Fire Department, all of the kind of workers around the city doing incredible work, all the volunteers around the city doing incredible work, limiting the amount of deaths that we've seen, a lot of property damage, but limiting the number of deaths that we've seen throughout the city. And that to me is inspiring.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And those are the people who are actually doing the real work right now, and there have been real resources for folks over here. There's an app called Watch Duty, which I've actually been able to follow along with for actual updates, and the local news has done a great job at letting people know what's going on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
But Twitter and social media in general, which used to be a place where you could get real-time updates, has become the opposite, has become a place where you go to and you don't know what's true, what's a lie, what's made up, but those lies spread.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Ben, like you said, Newsom has had to adapt to this and he is probably more adept at approaching these lies than probably anybody in history in terms of politicians being a modern kind of politician who understands the internet. His team releasing that video I thought was very effective and we see it. I'll try to pull it up again here. If I could find it one more time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
So when we took the screenshot of this photo, you see the views on the bottom. This was like right after it posted and it had 29,000 views. I just checked right before we did the show and it had more like seven and a half million views. So that's a video now. That's a message that's getting out to a whole lot of people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
I saw somebody, I think it was Chris Cuomo, who tried to criticize Gavin Newsom for posting that video. And he says, I'm paraphrasing, but Cuomo said something like, Oh, governor, now is not the time to get into petty internet squabbles. Focus on your state. And it's like, first off, do you think that's Gavin tweeting? Do you think it's Gavin typing and uploading the video? No.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
But what you don't understand, Chris Cuomo, is this is the battle that we are facing. Yes, he needs to battle the fires. Newsom also needs to battle the disinformation. And what he is doing is what Democrats have neglected to do over these past few years. And quite frankly, even with Newsom doing it, the cards are stacked against him. Everything is stacked against him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
because the algorithms are designed to suppress him and they're designed to uplift the lies. But the fact that Newsom could do a post like that, get seven and a half, eight million views on the post, get his counter message out to counter those lies. That is exactly what people who are running these accounts for the Democrats, for anybody who stands for truth.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
That's what everybody needs to be doing. This is actually a lesson in proper social media management to how to confront these crises on an informational level. And Gavin Newsom right now is delivering a master class on that from everybody should be able to learn from that should not be criticized.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
That should be looked at and studied by other people in the party, by other people who are seeking to correct the record.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Okay, I gotta tell you about this game-changing product I use before a night out with drinks. It's called ZBiotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink. Let's face it, after a night out with drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. I used to feel like I had to choose between a great night out and a great next day, until I found ZBiotics.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
ZBiotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's the blame for your rough next day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Z-biotics produces an enzyme that breaks this byproduct down. Just remember, make Z-biotics your first drink of the night, drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I won't lie, I was skeptical at first, but I gave it a shot before a night out with friends at our favorite spot downtown, and I could not believe the difference.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
The next morning I woke up ready to tackle a packed schedule, no sluggishness, no regrets. Now I use Z-Biotics every time I know I've got plans the next day. Go to zbiotics.com slash Midas to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use code Midas at checkout. That's M-E-I-D-A-S.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Zbiotics is backed by a 100% money-back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason whatsoever, they will refund your money, no questions asked. Again, that's zbiotics.com slash Midas and use that code Midas. That's M-E-I-D-A-S at checkout for 15% off. Cheers to feeling great tomorrow.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Are you open to providing aid to California without any conditions at all?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Yeah. Everything he said is a complete lie. California, it's just a fact. California gives the most money to the federal government out of any state. I will defend California to the death. It's an amazing state. LA is an amazing city. It's a beautiful city. It has a massive economy and ridiculous GDP output, which I think puts it at, what, the number five?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
If it was a country, it would be number four or five out of all countries in the entire world. I think it's funny when somebody from – I won't hate on any specific states right now, but when some of these senators and representatives from their states try to talk crap on California, it's like, bro, do you know where you're from?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Do you know how much money – do you know where you rank for education? Do you know where you rank in tech? Are you ranked in every category compared to California? Okay. But they tell their people that because it's like one of those North Korea style tactics where you act like these other places, oh, it's so horrible there. They have it awful there. Oh, you don't want to go there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And their people bite. You see online, you'll see memes and stuff of people from some of these states and some of these Trump voters who are like, thank God I don't live in California. Not about the fires, but just in general. And it's like, all right, it's pretty nice here actually, but all right, we're pretty populated, so it's okay. Believe me, we don't need you here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
But it's just so vile, it's so despicable to see Mike Johnson saying that, using those lies as pretext to say, Oh, actually, they're local officials. You know, they're basically blaming it on on people for being Democrats in California. It has nothing to do with political party. Stop putting politics into every little thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
No matter who was in these positions, quite frankly, whether it's Gavin Newsom, whether that was a Republican, whether it's Mayor Karen Bass, whether it's Caruso, whether it's a Republican, whoever it is. You swap any of those positions out, this fire still happens, it still spreads in the same exact way. It's just the fact because it was nature, it was mother nature, there was no stopping it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Now I'm happy that we do have competent people who are able to look this from a factual perspective and actually understand how to solve these issues and work on it from where we are right now. But that initial hit, that was going to happen regardless. And I'm sick of these people trying to use California as a political wedge. I'm sick of them playing with people's lives over here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
I really have an affinity for the communities in the city, in the state. And I see people busting their ass right now to help each other. I see people donating so much that I've gotten texts from the donation places saying we don't want any of X, Y, and Z because we're already full. But if you could bring this, that, and the other. And so that's how much this community is coming together.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
They are overflowing the donation spaces with items. They are working. They are helping their neighbors. You are seeing the community of the city in action. And then you just have these politicians, these Republican politicians in Washington just shitting on the city, making everything about politics.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
It's just absolutely reprehensible when us, when the people in the city are either in survival modes or just lost their homes or their cars or their mementos or whatever. It's just so sickening to me on such a deeply personal level.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And we've covered this from the perspective of other states before and how abhorrent it is when they did this with North Carolina, when they do this with other states that face disasters. And you just really feel it, I got to say. in an even different way when it's your state that's going through the crisis and you see these bullshit games that these people are playing in Washington.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Like enough is enough. I'm sick of the lies. I'm sick of the disinformation. Actually work for the people for once. Stop spreading your BS. Stop trying to be partisan. Just get together, pass a bill, help the people of this city. Help them. Stop with your politics.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
all right let's talk about nad plus it's an every living cell in your body and it helps keep you young by repairing damage detoxifying and giving you energy but between age 20 and 50 your nad plus levels are cut in half no wonder we start feeling older more tired and less vibrant but here's the good news qualia nad plus makes it easy to boost your nad plus levels by 74 percent
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It's a simple supplement that's vegan, gluten-free, non-GMO, and packed with ingredients to help you feel at your peak longer into life. Qualia NAD Plus contains the most powerful NAD Plus precursors like niacin, niacinamide, and niagen. These ingredients are clinically tested to boost your NAD Plus levels.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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And Qualia NAD Plus has many other holistic ingredients that support all major aspects of NAD Plus production in your body. Plus, it's doctor formulated so you know it's the real deal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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i've been using qualia nad plus since they sent it to me and the difference is huge i actually feel energized awake and ready to take on the day i had no idea how much my low nad plus was dragging me down to boost your nad plus levels by up to 74 go to qualialife.com geordie for up to 50 off and use code geordie at checkout that's j-o-r-d-y at checkout for an additional 15% off.
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That's qualialife.com slash Jordi, J-O-R-D-I for 15% off your purchase. Thanks to Qualia for sponsoring today's episode.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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I just want to say, just because you brought up Ron, Ron wrote one of the most incredible pieces for our Substack today about his story, about his journey of being in the Marines, becoming a Republican, and then becoming a Democrat ultimately and then becoming an independent journalist here at Midas Touch.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
It goes through his whole history and it's stuff about Iran that I never knew till reading this. And I just found that a really kind of inspiring kind of tale of somebody's kind of evolution in their thinking and kind of gaining empathy about others and how they've kind of come to believe the things that they believe and fight for the things that they fight for.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
Good to see you too. It's good to be back. It was upsetting to have to run away the last episode for that mandatory evacuation right before we started the episode. But I want to thank everybody for reaching out. Yes, I'm safe. My home is safe. Honestly, I am certainly one of the incredibly lucky ones here in Los Angeles. The fires by me broke out literally a couple blocks away.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
So you can check it out on MidasPlus.com. I found it really powerful and I think our audience will really like it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
But the LAFD jumped into action. They were able to stop them pretty quickly, the ones by me. And I was able to come back later that night. I know a lot of other people haven't been as lucky. And it's just been so devastating every single day watching all the devastation that has been wrought as a result of these fires, these winds. And it's been exhausting also seeing
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
than seeing all the commentary on right-wing social media coming from Donald Trump and flowing down to even people who I know in Los Angeles spouting out some of these lies from Donald Trump and Elon Musk and these other actors of disinformation and lies on the internet. It's so incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. We're pushing through it. We're pushing back.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
yeah yeah i mean you know president biden obviously older obviously very old but you know knows what he's doing and um you know is a real statesman and uh you know i think when he is not in office uh anymore you know i think i think we're gonna miss that i think we're gonna miss that steady hand i think we're gonna miss that defense of democracy i think we're gonna miss that defense of our allies and i think some folks are already seeing it now and i think
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
There will be a part of the country that will wake up down the road after all this chaos and these relentless attacks on our allies and when people realize that this is not America, what Donald Trump wants to take us to. But I'm happy that President Biden got a chance to lay out his foreign policy achievements there, including his defense of getting out of Afghanistan, which I mean,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
It's something that folks have asked for and wanted now for decades. And President Biden was the one who actually did it and took a giant political toll for doing so, which, by the way, probably discourages any other future presidents from leaving wars once we are in them, which I think is horrific.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And then somehow Donald Trump tries to run as the peace candidate when President Biden is the one who actually got us out of all of our wars and just provide a defense in other means to other countries, actually not presiding over a single war during his presidency in terms of American troops or anything. But yeah, no, I think good speech there by President Biden.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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To see Ben's interview with President Biden, we have the link in the description to this video. If you've not watched it yet, please watch it now. If you have watched it, please remember to share that video on your social media, send it to friends and family.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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It's such an honor to have kind of that historical record of that final interview with President Biden right here on the Midas Touch Network with you all. I think that's, you know, Something I certainly take to heart. Once again, I want to thank everybody out there for your kind words for me and Ben, but I want to ask you to send your thoughts and prayers.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
I know the Republicans have turned that phrase into something that sounds so trite after school shootings. But send your thoughts and prayers to all the other folks in LA who have really had devastating loss. Our hearts are with everybody. This is a strong city, but this is a city that could use help right now. And it's great seeing folks come together here. And it's great.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
I know everybody in the city appreciates seeing the outpouring of support that you all are showing and all the love. So I wanted to thank you for that. We're going to be hanging in here the next few days. We're supposed to get high winds. I'm getting all the warnings on my phones, more fire alerts, more high wind warnings. So we're just sitting tight, hoping that everything is going to be good.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
But we're going to be here every day delivering news. We got the confirmation hearings, tune in for the confirmation hearings, our coverage here on the Midas Touch Network. Make sure you check out MidasPlus.com. Once again, read that story by Ron Filipkowski. Excellent piece. Here's a screenshot for those watching my story and why I switched from Republican to Democrat by Ron Filipkowski.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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Excellent piece. Midas Plus is our ad-free experience. We're also putting our ad-free versions of these podcasts on Midas Plus. you could check it out. If you want to meet us face to face, you could do that on patreon.com slash Midas Touch. Remember to check us out.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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And something that really helps us out a whole lot, like helps us out a ton, is if you go and Apple Podcasts or Spotify, whatever audio podcast app you use, if you go and you add the Midas Touch podcast on audio, Even if you don't think you're going to listen to it on audio because you watch it here, go add it. And if you can, leave us a five-star review.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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I think if I could describe what it feels like here in LA to folks who aren't here, to me, it reminds me of the COVID era, when you're in survival mode, when you're constantly looking at the TV for the next update, when's the next... Where's the next wave going to take place?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
That sort of thing really, really helps us compete with all the right-wing podcasts that typically dominate the charts. It's one of the reasons why we're in the mix, why we often beat them. And I want to continue to grow in that space and continue to get our messages out with a bigger megaphone. than they are. We need to combat the lies, folks. We need to combat the disinformation.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
We need to lead with honesty, with integrity, with positivity. And that's, I think, one of the main missions of this community. So let's all do that together.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
If you need it, of course it is for, it's for the people impacted. So if you don't, don't just go cause you want a free burger, but if you're, if you've been impacted, if you're a first responder, um, police, firefighters, you know, um, you know, we're, we're trying to help out, um, you know, as best we can. So it's been great to,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
be able to partner here with Mendez and Sanchez to get some In-N-Out burgers. And if we run out of those, we'll have some pizza and stuff. Just try and do everything that we can right now in this moment while we also kind of try to figure out our own safety and all that. So thank you, everybody. I'm so grateful for everybody. It's been quite the week and a half, whatever it's been.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
I don't even know. I have no time. But I'm thankful for everybody. I have so much love for you all. And thanks.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
You know, looking at the forecast, trying to hear from the experts, and then at the same time, getting this deluge of disinformation, this deluge of lies, which seeks to counteract the progress actually being made on the ground. Meanwhile, you sort of feel locked in and cooped up and you go to the store and everyone's trying to get the supplies as if it's the end.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
It really feels a lot like that era. I don't like that very much. But like I said, I'm certainly, you know, one of the lucky ones here. And I want to send all my love, you know, and prayers and everything to, you know, everybody here in LA. It's such an incredible city.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And to see the way folks are coming together in the city to help one another out right now in this time, it's really heartwarming. And it shows you the good parts of humanity in the sea of the cesspool of the lies and disinformation that we're seeing out there online. Jordi, how are you doing?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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So there was water. We have several reservoirs that we use a lot. Now, just an example, if we have one building burning, we could flow 1,000 gallons a minute on that one building with the hose lathes that we put in to stop it. You can imagine 1,000 gallons per house we couldn't do, right? So the amount of water we're flowing, there really is no water system that's going to keep that pace.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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So we have to bring in water tenders, which are these big tank water tanks that, you know, 2,500, 3,000-gallon trucks, and they'll come in, and that's what we have to do to compensate. So they park out there and do it. DWP did a great job. They brought in big water trucks for us, and we use them as basically mobile hydrants. All right.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to MAJOR Breaking News
And then we have our own agency as well that has water tenders.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And we've heard this now from a lot of our allies. We heard this in Panama. We heard this in Greenland, that these leaders are taking it seriously. I know Ben's done reports here at the Midas Touch Network about weaponry being put into place in these countries in case they need to fight back against the United States of America.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
I mean, let's just take a moment to reflect on this concept that our allies now are are arming themselves, preparing for imminent invasion from the United States. And let's view now that we, America, the United States, are the Russia of the world in addition to Russia. But now these countries have to worry about, is Russia going to try to invade us?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Now they have to worry, is this madman Donald Trump, is he going to try to invade us? And that's why I see comments all day from our fans online who live in the European Union, who live in Canada, who say that they are furious, not at everyday Americans, but furious at the people who voted for Donald Trump, furious at Donald Trump, are boycotting American goods.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And we see this all over the place, this just resentment that is building against the U.S. And we're going to see just so much more danger come to the U.S. as a result of Trump's actions.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Because when he is speaking about ethnic cleansing in Gaza, when he is talking about forcibly removing the people of Palestine and not allowing them to come back to their land, I mean, that right there is something that would have been the biggest headline on the planet if it happened just a month or two ago and it was said by President Biden. I know, Ben, you said before, I know, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
We're not going to go into this. What if President Biden did it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But just think about that. And I want also to think about the protests that happened during the Kamala Harris campaign about these issues. When Kamala Harris was fighting for a two-state solution and she was trying to do the best by both parties in a very complicated situation, could she have handled it?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
the situation better? Sure. I mean, you could say that about anybody, but she was also working for an administration that was actively handling high pressure negotiations and situations where one wrong word could set off, you know, could totally derail a deal that is going for a ceasefire. Now you have Donald Trump out there actively campaigning every single day saying,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
I am going to ethnically cleanse this land. I'm going to remove all the Palestinians and why he's being brazen about it. I'm going to build my real estate development there and it's going to be large and it's going to be beautiful and everybody's going to love it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Oh, the Palestinians, they're not going to be allowed back, but we're going to get some really good people in there and then they could find other countries to live in. Just think about the depravity right now of that. And that's just our foreign policy. We haven't even gotten into Donald Trump completely gutting all of our government and using Elon Musk. We'll get there soon.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
But that's just one aspect. But you see just a systematic – or a systemic destruction of everything the United States stands for in such a short period of time. And we have to take Trump seriously when he says all these things. I know sometimes people want to say, oh, he's not serious about Canada. He's not serious about Gaza. I'm telling you, he is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And you know how you know he is because all the other countries that have to deal with this stuff are taking him seriously and they are preparing for the worst case scenario, which speaks so badly about the United States and where we are at.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
February is the month of love, but why let romance stop after Valentine's Day? Whether you're looking to turn up the heat in the bedroom or just unwind and enjoy the moment, Vaya has you covered.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
I've tried Vya's products and they truly stand out. They have these dreams sleep gummies that always help me unwind after a crazy day and after covering all the chaos in the world every single day. Trust me, it helps a ton. Their hemp is sourced from independently owned American farms. Their formulas are vegan and organic.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And whether you're looking to relax, sleep better, or enhance your mood, they have something for you. Plus, they ship legally and discreetly to almost every U.S. state, no medical card required. If you're 21 or over, check out the link to Vaya in our description and use code MIDAS for 15% off. And if you're new to Vaya, you'll even get a free gift of your choice.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
After you order, let them know we sent you. This month of love, elevate your love life with Vaya. Okay, real talk. I love food, but I do not love meal planning. Every week I do my best, but often reality hits, work, errands, exhaustion. Suddenly I'm eating leftovers for dinner again. But then I found Marley Spoon and I am officially a meal prep person. I could announce it right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
not because i suddenly got my life together but because marley spoon did it for me this podcast is sponsored by marley spoon and i'm genuinely excited about it because it's helping me fast track my way to eating well without all that stress and with our code midas m-e-i-d-a-s you could get up to 27 free meals here's what i love marley spoon gives you over a hundred recipes to choose from every week we're talking everything
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Cozy comfort food like big batch beef stroganoff to lighter dishes like salmon and creamy mustard deal sauce tray bake. There's literally something for every single mood. And my absolute favorite recently, their beef noodle soup with bok choy. I made it last night. I had that moment where I just stared at my plate like, damn, I'm good.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
It looked incredible, smelled amazing, and more importantly, tasted like something out of a restaurant. And the best part, Marley Spoon just launched their new 15-minute express recipes. Yep, dinner in 15 minutes. So even on nights when I'm feeling extra lazy, I have zero excuses. This new year, fast track your way to eating well with Marley Spoon.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Head to marleyspoon.com slash offer slash Midas and use that code Midas for up to 27 free meals. You heard me right. Up to 27 free meals with Marley Spoon. One last time, that's marleyspoon.com slash offer slash Midas for up to 27 free meals. And make sure you use our promo code Midas, M-E-I-D-A-S, so they know that I sent you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
I think I got another profession on my hands.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Anyway, so I think I can do commercials though, like on TV, you know,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
It helps that they're all really good products and services and that Jordy vets them and that they're amazing. So check them out. All the links in the descriptions of these videos and audio podcasts.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Trump has signed an executive order deeming the white people in South Africa to be a persecuted class and saying that they could take refuge. They could be refugees to the United States because of the way that South Africa is treating them and welcoming white South Africans into the U S as he pushes out legal immigrants who are already here in the U S I mean, completely appalling. Also,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Elon Musk is all over that executive order like like that is Elon steering the ship 100 percent right there. And again, so so what's the like what's the plan?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
The moving of the goalposts here right now by the MAGA influencers is so wild. And, you know, we've known this for a while, but it's never been more apparent that these people don't believe in shit. They don't believe in anything. When you see this Ashley St. Clair and all these other MAGA influencers, And comments like, oh, what do you think that Elon Musk is going to do with your data?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
You're really afraid of this guy going through your data? Really? Oh, that's what you're scared of? Could you imagine?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Yeah, that's my Sinclair. That's my mega dingus voice. Can you imagine one moment and replace Elon Musk with Bill Gates or George Soros? Don't worry. Bill Gates has got to go through your social security number. What do you think he's going to do with it? He's got to go through all your information and see everything about you. He needs to look through what the treasury is paying you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
He needs to look through your social security number. He needs to look through everything the government has on you. But you could trust him. He's a billionaire. I mean, you could trust this guy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
It's your patriotic duty to pay more for eggs or not be able to afford eggs. And that's what they do. And, you know, Mark Cuban made a good point on this because Mark Cuban has been, I think, very good, very effective. He's a billionaire who could actually hold his weight in the space.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And he pushing back against Elon Musk and this whole Doge process saying, hey, listen, I'm all for smaller, more efficient government as well. But if you want to do this right and have the trust of the American people, then you have to be transparent.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
So instead of leaking BS information that nobody can even find anywhere to try to smear hardworking people who work in the federal government to smear agencies, show us your work. Show us the information. Stop hiding all of it. And you also think you have the right that the American people actually aren't allowed to know who's even working in your weirdo doge operation.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
You have all these weirdo 19 to 25 year old young dudes who come from who a lot of them have these weird checkered past. Like one of them literally got fired. The guy they call Big Balls, not making this up. They call him that's his nickname, Big Balls. That's what he went by on social media. He got fired from his previous company. He worked for a cybersecurity firm. For what?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
For leaking data from the company to competitors. So he's not very good with data, apparently. But this is the guy now who Elon Musk has entrusted to go through all of your personal data. Somebody who was literally fired from one of their previous jobs for leaking sensitive data to other people. This is who they put in charge. And Mark Cuban says, dear Doge,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
If there is nothing to hide, hide nothing. And I think that is something that should be obvious. It should be something that the Ashley Sinclairs of the world, that everybody should accept. Yes, of course we want transparency because they try to act like they want transparency. But the second you demand it, they go, oh, you just have terrible TDS. Oh, you just hate Elon.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
No, we want to know what the heck these people are doing with our government. We want to know the people who are even being put in charge. Elon Musk, anytime somebody even says the names of these 19-year-olds who are rummaging through all of our stuff, he goes, you have just committed a crime. You have committed a crime. And then he has this U.S.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
attorney guy who goes out there and he goes, oh, I'm investigating everybody who Elon Musk refers to me criminally. So if you want to criticize Doge, if you want to criticize Elon Musk and he tells me about it, He reports you to me. Guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to open a criminal investigation into you. That's transparency. That's honest government.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And the fact that they are acting like this is honest government is once again, one of the biggest kind of brainwashing Russia, North Korea style scams and propaganda that we have ever seen in this country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Yeah, he's doing everything possible to destroy all the institutions, everything that kind of holds the country together. And under the guise of finding fraud, under the guise of trying to streamline the government, is destroying the exact programs that exist to streamline government and find the fraud.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
It's a very kind of Soviet-esque, Russian-esque, Putin-esque style of governance where you kind of Dangle fake information for your people to latch on to.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
All right, let's talk about something very serious, my obsession with Hexclad. Listen, I've gone through my fair share of cookware disasters, warped nonstick pans, cast irons that require a master's degree in seasoning, and stainless steel that turns every meal into a scraping session. But hexclad, oh, hexclad is different.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
You use that as a predicate to then punish the people who are actually doing the hard work in our federal government, the people who are actually making things run, the people who are actually protecting consumers, protecting Americans with medical debt, protecting Americans.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
It's like if a cast iron skillet, a nonstick pan, and a spaceship had a baby. You get perfect sears, food doesn't stick, and cleanup ridiculously easy. You could even use metal utensils. Yeah, I said it. No more babying your pans like they are delicate antiques. And if you think that's cool, wait till you see their knives.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
These Japanese Damascus steel knives are so sharp they could probably slice time itself. And they look stunning. Like if James Bond had a kitchen, these would be in it. It's time to ditch the scratched up pan you've been clinging to since college and upgrade your kitchen like a pro. And for a limited time only, our listeners get 10% off their order with our exclusive link.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Just head to hexclad.com slash Midas. That's H-E-X-C-L-A-D.com forward slash Midas. M-E-I-D-A-S. Support the show, get the best cookware of your life, and level up your cookie game. Bon appetit. Let's eat with Hexclad.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Americans from banks exploiting them and all sorts of things and using these fake attacks against these agencies to destroy them and do these massive giveaways to billionaires, to oligarchs, to big banks, to all of these kind of predatory structures.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
That is what we're seeing with Donald Trump right now, a government of the oligarchs, by the oligarchs and for the oligarchs, screwing the American people down. in the process and we will break it all down on this episode of the Midas Touch podcast. But first, we got to check in with Jordy. Jordy, what's new?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Honestly, there's, there's no good argument. There's no good argument. I work in TV. It's fucking stupid. There's no good argument. Listen, I, Every show you've ever seen is edited. There's editors for everything you see. Why? There are time constraints.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Sometimes different versions are delivered to different channels or different shows because they're just showing a portion of it for this show or they're showing a portion of it for that show. Editors have to make game time decisions in order to cut things for time. They don't have the conversation that the people have before the interview. That doesn't get aired.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
They just air it from the interview on. They don't air the people sitting down and adjusting their makeup and making sure the lights are okay. That stuff isn't in things. It was the FCC decided to weaponize this whole lawsuit, acting like Donald Trump's personal henchman. The FCC released the full video of the interview of CBS, the raw, unedited footage.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
They released it on their YouTube channel just to try to humiliate Kamala Harris. You know why you haven't seen a clip from this interview, folks? You know why none of you have probably even heard that the FCC did this? Because there was nothing on it. There was nothing on it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
It was just the raw interview that started with her talking about that she has an allergy to mold and that she had to sneeze a little bit before they got started. They went into the interview. The interview was normal as presented in the thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And then Donald Trump is trying to sue specifically to silence the media, to try to crush all sort of dissent, to try to scare any opponents from even taking interviews that could benefit their campaigns. I mean, remember, Donald Trump was offered the same interview He refused to even participate. He was too afraid of it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And the last time that he did remember the footage that came out from that interview, it was him walking off the set like a baby because he couldn't handle Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes. Ask very basic questions about why at his rallies, he said, suburban woman, will you please love me? Suburban woman, please love me, please. And he got so upset that he asked, so why? She asked, why do you say that?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And he goes, no, I don't. I don't say that. And then she played the clip. And then he got really upset and left. And I think she maybe asked about his health care plan he didn't have when he left. So the whole thing, it's just using the government to try to strong arm people, to try to threaten people, to try to silence the media.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And no matter how much Paramount or CBS, no matter how much they want to do this merger that they're currently involved in, no matter how many billions of dollars that Redstone, the lead stakeholder in Paramount, seeks to gain from this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
They need to make sure that they hold their ground here because if they buckle on this completely frivolous lawsuit to Donald Trump, it puts all media, including the Midas Touch Network, puts everybody at risk because that is exactly what Donald Trump wants.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
yeah all the lower your prices right guys i i like how you know these mag influencer types uh all these folks online will always be like it's the democrats that are corrupt the democrats are full of corruption and and uh and we go you know there are corrupt people on both sides certainly i think there's far more uh corrupt people right now in naga and on the republican side but there certainly are corrupt people like uh
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Like Menendez, great that he was prosecuted. I think that's great. I think what he was doing was the epitome of corruption. Eric Adams, yeah, you're so right. Eric Adams, corrupt. The law needs to handle him. But then the second these people say a word nice about Donald Trump, they're like –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
oh, the Democrats are just trying to attack this guy because he's trying to tell the truth because they don't want the truth to get out there. And it's like, geez, God, it's such, to bring it back to what I said in the beginning, they take like the cues from North Korean and Russia propaganda and run with them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
and run with them and they have the benefit of having these billionaire oligarchs control all these algorithms who push their stuff out and help it get into everybody's feed and basically use it to try to brainwash people into thinking that this is the truth couldn't be any further from the truth even when you look at some of these documents
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Like when you look at the document that the Trump administration just released on overdraft fees, you know, who likes overdraft fees? Find me a Republican, a Democrat or independent who's like, yes, I'm so happy the bank charged me a ton of money for not having money. Find me a single person. Find me a single person who said, oh, I was buried in medical debt. But thank God.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
thank god that that also worked against my credit and i couldn't buy anything because of my medical debt thank thank you donald trump for for giving me back that burden on my life i can no longer buy things because my credit's destroyed and i have all this medical debt but thank you that's that's exactly what i wanted nobody wants this stuff and so as like tim wallace would say who wants this stuff this is weird stuff no one wants this stuff
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
So the framing that they always put around all these things is just the opposite of reality. So I'll just go to the memo for a second that they released about the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. By the way, Elizabeth Warren project implemented to try to ensure that there was never another 2008 style crash ever again. This is an agency that has delivered for the American people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
If you wanna talk about Department of Government Efficiency, There is no agency. I think that even comes close to this department in providing efficiency and providing effective and efficient government and actually being used to get money back into the hands of Americans from being scammed by corporations. So the corrupt corporations don't like that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And so this is the Elon Musk, White House, Trump memo about CFPB. They say the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau isn't a Wall Street regulator anymore. It's a Main Street regulator. They always say exactly the opposite of what it is. And here's their message about the the Biden reforms, which were the ones we were just speaking about.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
They said described as classic overreach and passed or granted itself the waning hours of the lame duck Biden administration. The agency gave itself the authority to regulate Americans checking accounts. makes it sound like, oh, my God, they're putting their fingers in our checking accounts. Who wants that?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
No, they were preventing banks from doing these crazy overdraft fees on people for overdrafting their accounts by small amounts. Then they add over here that the government then dictated price controls and unilaterally buried a $50 billion in medical debt.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Yeah, no, they were preventing medical debt from being used against people in other aspects of their life by completely ruining their credit for their entire life. Those are good things that if you polled them, and I know they haven't polled, probably poll at 75, 80, 90%, like very popular things that actually help the American people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And Elon Musk, quite frankly, gives away the game that this is not anything to do with government efficiency or trying to help people's lives when he pulls away an agency like that, illegally, by the way, because these are agencies that are created by legislation, signed into law by the president that he is trying to just defund and destroy from within. But these are agencies that help people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
And you give away the game that this has never been about government efficiency. This has never been about making America great again. This is just about enriching the people at the top and screwing over Americans and then distracting them with enough little toys to hope they don't notice.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Also, add the Midas Touch podcast on audio, Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And also, we're doing something new on Spotify now, which is super exciting, is we're starting to put some of our video podcasts on Spotify. So you can get the video there. You get the audio there. So that really helps. You may think, oh, what does adding this thing help? It helps a ton, believe me.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
So if you go and add the Midas Touch podcast on Apple and on Spotify, leave us a five-star review. Help us continue to beat, because we are like the top news podcast right now. Help us continue to beat all these MAGA podcasts. I'm sick of seeing them in the algorithm. And you adding the show, playing the episodes, giving a five-star review, all helps in that. And it's free and it's super easy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Yeah. Oh, boy. A lot of chaos, a lot of things that he's throwing out. You know, you see with the other things that he's doing, the penny, the straw, all that stuff.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
By the way, even like the straw thing, I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be going into like various coffee shops and stores and stuff and complaining to the people because they're going to think that Donald Trump's executive order extends to like everywhere. But it doesn't. He doesn't have the power for that to extend to everywhere, just like federal buildings.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
So I guarantee you're going to have a lot of obnoxious people like yelling at employees in stores over paper straws, first of all. But you're right.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
He throws out all of these very inconsequential things like the straws, like the penny, just easily done sort of things to make a statement while he kind of hides the dangerous stuff or pushes through this other dangerous stuff that's really going to screw people over. So he gets people to – Probably not super bright people to be like, yeah, America, Gulf of America, we're doing great.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/10/25
Meanwhile, they're paying dramatically more for everything that they buy. Our allies now hate us. Our allies are living in fear of the United States over invasions. You have Canada. There was a leaked Mike moment with Justin Trudeau over the weekend of him basically saying to his people like Donald Trump is serious about wanting to invade us. And we need to take precautions.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
There's a reason why they are all panicking as well, because they know that this is a stupid idea that is going to wreck their companies. And everything's going to have a domino effect here. Also, as the stock market goes down, as investors get margin called, as these companies struggle to keep up with everything that's going on, they're going to have to lay off more people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Now these people aren't going to be able to find jobs at other places. America, as a competitive leader in the world, is completely ruined. And those jobs, even Howard Lutnick of the Trump administration right now is admitting that if those jobs even were to come back here, which is unlikely to begin with, that they would be robots doing the jobs, not American workers.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
So they are completely setting this up, like all of their scams, to help the billionaires, to help the factory owners, but not the factory workers. And right now, Trump is just, this is just a perfect storm that this administration has created. And the Republicans could end it in two seconds if they wanted to. They could pass legislation to stop this at any point.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
But you have the cowards like Mike Johnson who refuse, and this entire Republican Party who refuse to do anything about this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
It was trans billboards today, Jordy. Trans billiards, and I think it was a billiards game from like two years ago. That's what they're running with on Fox today.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Before I found Public Rec, I dreaded putting on real pants. You know, the ones, tight waistbands, stiff fabric, squeezing all the wrong places. Honestly, it would make me like not even want to go out at all. But then I discovered Public Rec and everything changed. I'm obsessed with these pants. The first time I slipped them on, I could not believe how comfortable they were.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
It felt like I was wearing joggers, but I looked like I could walk into a nice dinner or hit the bar. I've worn them to meetings, out to grab drinks, to workouts, and even on a long flight, and yep, I have absolutely fallen asleep in them too. Public Rec nails that perfect balance between comfort and style.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
True story, after I got my first pair, I loved them so much I went right back on their website and ordered them in just about every single color. I am already eyeing their shorts and hoodies next. Comfortable enough for the couch, sharp enough for the city. For a limited time, you can get 20% off at Public Rec by using code MIDUS20 at checkout. Just head to publicrec.com and use code MIDUS20.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
That's M-E-I-D-A-S 2-0 and you're all set. Oh, and when they ask how you found them, be sure to mention our show. It really helps us out. Upgrade to Public Rec and feel the difference.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Doing great. Great to see you, brothers. Great to see everybody watching. Great to be speaking with all the people listening on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. What a weekend, you guys. The hands-off protests, absolutely incredible. The biggest mobilization that we have seen to date. Hey, Donald, you finally got those crowds that you were talking about.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
but not the crowds that you were hoping for. The people are fed up, folks. And it was such an honor to cover these protests, honestly. I'm so impressed by all the groups that organized this, by all the people out there who took to the streets, all of you out there. I know so many of you listening made your own signs. You guys were out there putting in the hard work. I loved seeing your signs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
what are you even talking about you got cambodia to break you got vietnam to break and submit while like europe is standing up all these people are all these other countries are building structures and debates i want to say this too if i can so trump in his best case scenario and his big pitch for why these tariffs are so amazing says tariffs are going to make us rich it's always a get rich quick scheme with trump right it's always it's going to make you rich it's not going to make you rich you're never going to see this money hate to break it to you
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
listeners. But Trump always goes, tariffs are going to make us rich. We're going to get $1 trillion, like Dr. Evil, this guy. We're going to get $1 trillion from tariffs. I'll say two things about the $1 trillion from the tariffs. I'll say, first, in the past week or so alone, under Donald Trump, the stock market has already lost $10 trillion in value.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
$10 trillion removed from the United States economy for this theoretical $1 trillion that he's talking about. I'll just put that there. I know it's not exactly apples to apples, but I'll just say that we're already getting quite screwed by Donald Trump's plans exponentially upon that $1 trillion mark. Secondly, Do you know where the $1 trillion comes from?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Do you know who's paying that $1 trillion that he's talking about the United States earning? You are. It's not the other countries, because tariffs are a tax on American companies, and tariffs are a tax that are passed along to American consumers. So every time Trump is bragging about all the money that we're going to make from these tariffs, he is bragging
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Quite literally and directly, he is bragging about raising your taxes and taking your money. That's what he's bragging about anytime he says we're going to get rich off tariffs. To be clear, Ben.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
I noticed a lot of people with Midas Touch signs as well out there, which I thought was super, super cool. We had our correspondents on the ground. Tennessee Brando spoke at the Los Angeles event. We were doing the live coverage, the reports. We were city to city interviewing the organizers. What a weekend for democracy. The democracy does indeed have a pulse.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And on the other hand, you see Donald Trump right now. Let's face it, this is the most disastrous beginning of a presidency that we have ever seen in the history of this country, crashing the markets, national security failures,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
ruining all of our foreign policy destroying our alliances it's like a speed run with the destruction of america coming from this administration we are going to get into all of it but first you know i got to toss it to jordy and see how little bro is doing what's up jordy what's up everybody i am so stoked to get into it brett to your point exactly man the energy from the protest the energy is palpable man there is a a dramatic vibe shift and people are just
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Well, we're seeing all the things that he wanted to do in his previous presidency, but there were guardrails that still existed then, and there were people that were around him to tell him no, generals, military. He's purged all those people, and he's completely taken over the Republican Party. And now they just go, yes, you want a parade? We'll give you a parade, sir.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Jordy, this is why the whole thing is a sham. The whole administration is a – the whole thing is a sham. Because if you were really concerned about wasteful spending, you wouldn't spend more than $100 million on something like this. And that's – I'm honestly almost like upset by a lot of the things just from like a –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
intellectual level, I guess, because when I look at what Elon Musk has done with Doge, for example, it could have been an amazing opportunity, honestly, to make the government more efficient if you actually had an honest broker at the helm, if you had people giving legitimate numbers, if you had, like I said earlier with the tariffs,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
a plan rather than let's just throw all this stuff out in the first few weeks fire people make them lose their jobs have all these lawsuits have all this chaos destroy these agencies make it so people can't even get weather forecasts in some areas make it so people are waiting hours online for their social security phone calls all that stuff there was a way that you could go through and you could actually make the government more efficient
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And I would love that, quite frankly. And I'm sure there's an Elon Musk of the past who would have been very good at that. Elon Musk before he got red-pilled or propagandized by his own social media app or whatever the heck that happened with Elon Musk. Because I think that would have been a great opportunity. Instead, this is an administration. It's the gang that can't shoot straight.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
They can't do anything right. Doge is all a scam. It's the whole thing. They say these big numbers. They're fake. They put these numbers on their website. You look into them for a second. There were contracts that were already canceled 10 years ago, or the numbers are inflated. It's all a scam.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And with this military parade in 2018 or 2019, whatever the year was, it was one of those years that they were going to do this parade. It was going to cost over $90 million for the parade alone. And then an additional about $20 million in order to fix the streets and the damage because the Streets in Washington, D.C.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
are not designed for military planes and all this stuff to be pulled alongside it and to drive down it. So they were going to do it knowing that it was going to damage the streets and completely destroy the infrastructure in D.C. But Trump doesn't give a shit. So he's going to be doing it now. And there's going to be a lot of waste here all for this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And it will really show that will be the moment if
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
No, it's a good wrap of everything going on. There's a lot to be concerned about and we're not here to sugarcoat things and let you know that everything's great because it clearly is not. There is a lot to be hopeful for as well. This weekend brought me a lot of hope. A lot of these town halls that we've seen over the past few weeks have brought me a lot of hope.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And finally, seeing kind of Democrats step up, seeing the people rise up, I think it does give me kind of a lot of confidence going into the future that we can overcome all this. But we're going to have to stay in this fight. We're going to have to stay just up to date with everything that's going on, make sure that we're on top of everything.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And so that's what we promise to do here at the Midas Touch Network. And I got to thank all of you for being in it because I know times are tough. I know it's not fun for those who have retirement plans to check their accounts and be like, what the hell is going on?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
I know it's not fun to wake up to all this chaos, especially after years and years and years of relative quiet and stability and looking at positive headlines and alliances growing and stock market records and stuff. and GDP records and employment growing and new factories opening. And we're not seeing that anymore.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
We're in a totally different country that I, quite frankly, do not recognize at all. But that means that we need to double our efforts. That means we need to work that much harder. And so that's what we're going to do here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
I've been noticing that line too. By the way, do you remember what I told you guys like a week or two ago? I said, just wait for the pivot, guys. I said, wait for the pivot because oil is going to come down because we're heading into a recession, if not a depression. That's a signature sign that that is happening.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And so watch that collapse and then watch Donald Trump and watch all these MAGA people go, oh boy, look how much oil has come down. And like clockwork, that's the propaganda that they shifted to. Basically today they started that one amid this total chaos.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
Out of all the hosts on Fox also, Jesse Waters in particular has an incredible level of disdain for his own viewers because he mocks them like that on a nightly basis. Every single night, he's making comments like that, acknowledging that he's in on the scheme. He's in on the scam. He's in on exactly what they are doing at Fox.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And right now, they have to run protection for Donald Trump, these disastrous policies. They have to make it seem like okay, you are looking in your 401k accounts. You are getting laid off from your job. How can we spin this as a good thing? And they go into overdrive and it gets more and more ridiculous as they try to counter what's actually happening in reality with their spin.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And that's why, and we'll show some more clips too, because like the level of like North Korea style propaganda that we are seeing from the Trump regime right now is like nothing we have ever seen before in the United States of America. And Donald Trump is going full authoritarian. He is leaning into all the things that they do in authoritarian countries in North Korea, in Russia.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
We'll talk about the military parade that he wants to hold for himself on his birthday soon as well. But all the things that he is doing make the people suffer and make them beg you for the scraps. That's a typical thing that dictators have done throughout history. That's what Donald Trump is doing right here. Make the people suffer, then make them beg you for help.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And then you throw them little breadcrumbs and then they go, Oh, thank you, Mr. Trump. Thank you, President Trump. Thank you. Thank you. That's what he wants from people right now. And the issue with this whole tariff scheme is this was done in the worst way possible.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
And I think, you know, no matter how much I disagree with what Trump is doing here, and I disagree with what he's doing vehemently, I think his plan is absolutely atrocious. And it's clearly destroying the markets and putting uncertainty in the markets. But even if there was a world where I did agree somehow with what Trump was doing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
There's a reasonable way to roll things out so that it doesn't ruin people's lives, so that it doesn't throw businesses into chaos, so that it doesn't make people unemployed. There's a way to make it so the business community is able to prepare for these tariffs. There's a way to make it so other countries are able to prepare so that we could have an honest way of doing trade.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
But because everything is projection with Trump, Trump calls everybody else abusers. When Trump himself is the abuser, he is abusing the global trade system. And I just want you to think, I'll put out this hypothetical right now, right? Trump's been changing his mind on these tariffs like every other day. It's this rate, it's that rate. We're taking it away. We're negotiating with these countries.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
No, we're not negotiating with these countries. If you're a business in the United States, and even if you want to build a factory in the United States because of these tariffs, are you going to sink?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
millions if not tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars into building a factory in the united states if donald trump can one day come on in and say i'm just kidding about that tariff i'm actually taking away that tariff i cut a deal i got i got us a good deal all of a sudden that company's investments in this factory were for nothing and they just lost a whole bunch of money and their competition now is way ahead of them
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
You can't negotiate. You can't do business here abroad. You can't do anything with somebody who is so unstable like Donald Trump. And the one thing that you need if you're in the business community, the one thing that you need if you want to work in general is stability.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/8/25
there's nothing more important than stability and there is nothing less that i could say that there's a quality of donald trump than stability there's no strategy here there is zero coherence here it is full on chaos non-stop and it's just not a good thing this is why you see even these billionaire ceos and a lot of these oligarchs who have backed donald trump i'm talking the bill ackman's of the world i'm even talking elon musk came out and said that he did like tariffs
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
Let's go. Shout out to our pro-democracy sponsors. Links in description of both the YouTube and the audio. Use the links. Use the codes. Let them know we sent you. They manage. They look at the traffic that we sent from the show. So definitely click the links if you're able to.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
Right now, Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI for new U.S. customers with minimum financial commitment. Offer ends March 31st. See if your company qualifies for this special offer at oracle.com slash Midas. That's oracle.com slash Midas. Let's go. Shout out to our sponsors. Links in description of YouTube and audio. Click the links.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
Let them know we sent you. Benji, to Biden now? Where do you want to go?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
Well said, big bro. Hey, I feel the same sentiments that you just put out there. So why don't we just get into the show? Big brother Benji, where do you want to start?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
Well said, big bro. Patreon.com slash Midas Touch. Come hang out with us right there in the link. Shout out to the Midas Mighty!
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
Hey, Midas Mighty. Love this report. Continue the conversation by following us on Instagram at Midas Touch to keep up with the most important news of the day. What are you waiting for? Follow us now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
Absolutely. And let's be clear. Look, she lost, but 1.5% is not a mandate on the whole party here. It was such a slim fraction of what she actually lost by. And to see her getting up every day and just being the person that we all knew she is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
tons of class dignified just doing the work today was my favorite it was boring right because that's what today should be brett to your point exactly that's what made the whole pence thing so ridiculous is that it's purely ceremonial like today is just her confirming you know the results that that's it and she doesn't you know have any authority to overturn the election here in the in this moment and it's a ridiculous thing to sort of ask her to anyway
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Breaking JAN 6 NEWS
But she's been nothing but pitch perfect, especially these last couple of weeks.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Not to mention, like the fact that the other stuff that's happening directly in the White House, even these executive orders against these law firms are like a protection racket that we are seeing right now. You know, they actually did a great report on 60 Minutes last night about this, where they had an attorney speak about this. And it was a John Kecker. Is that how you say his name, Ben?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Yeah. And he said that this is the definition of bribery, what we are seeing right now, the definition of bribery, what Donald Trump is doing with these law firms by making them give him these basically in-kind bribes. pro bono work to the sum of hundreds of millions of dollars, also scaring them off with his legal schemes against them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
I mean, we're witnessing the single most brazenly corrupt criminal administration in history just doing things every single day that would have been months worth of coverage if not like historic, like major headlines in your history books growing up, but it's just a daily occurrence, sometimes like 10 times a day. And that's part of their strategy, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
It just do so much that you overwhelm the system, whether it's the media system, the courts, whatever it is, try to throw so much at everybody that you just confuse everybody to going, oh, maybe this isn't so psycho. Maybe this is normal. No, this is psycho stuff that we're seeing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Hey, listen, if we're making videos about like Mitt Romney speaking about like his views on tax policy and we were like Romney goes psycho, I totally get it. If you guys are like, come on now, come on. But like literally this guy goes psycho and has meltdowns every single day. Like let's not act like what we are seeing is normal stuff. You will own less and be happy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Not only do my Vessi sneakers look great, but they're also lightweight, have waterproof tech, and provide all-day comfort, so I don't have to worry about the weather forecast. These sneakers are also durable, so I know they'll support me no matter what the day brings. My Vessi's look so great that I wear them everywhere, to important meetings, out to dinner, and on walks and hikes.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And these things are comfortable. They've got soft soles and a breathable design, which is helpful when I'm on my feet. Vessi allows you to embrace every journey, rain or shine, without worry. Make every day a little easier. Visit Vessi.com slash Midas now for 15% off your first pair at checkout and start exploring with confidence.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
When we got good stuff, it makes it easy, honestly. And I love the stuff. Those Vessies are the best. They're so good.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
That is basically the mantra of this new Trump administration. And these just spiraling out of control. I mean, is there anything more anti-American brothers
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
than telling people you should do well with less you could you should you should have less and i'm going to tell you how much that you should have while i live in my gold tower and sit on my gold-plated toilet your your daughter should only have one or two dolls that's that that's plenty that's plenty I mean, this is just absolutely crazy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
It is certainly not the message that came from the Trump campaign as he was running in this election and things just keep getting worse. And like we've been saying, this is just like the very beginning. We are in the eye of the storm right now. And when that storm actually hits, it's going to be devastating. We're seeing what's happening with freight. We're seeing what's happening at the ports.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
We are seeing what all the investments with all the investors are saying that everything is basically dried up. and come to a complete halt and a standstill. And right now we are just waiting and bracing for the impact of all that while Donald Trump, I guess, watches movies on TV and then tries to put those movies into his policy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Now he's obsessed with Alcatraz because maybe he watched Escape from Alcatraz, the Clint Eastwood movie over the weekend on TV. And now That's in his head. It's just the whole deranged thing that's going on. So yeah, we're not going to sugarcoat it. We're not going to pretend like this is normal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Are you kidding me? That's why I think sometimes with Trump, what you have to do is just write his words verbatim or just – Show what he says completely unedited because when people read his words on paper, when they hear it just long form, not with the media interpretations of what he's saying or what he's trying to say, you see just how deranged he is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Donald Trump likes to say in these trade negotiations that aren't happening. Donald Trump likes to say they don't have the cards about the other countries, right? He always says they don't have the cards. Not only does Donald Trump not have the cards, Donald Trump is simply not playing with a full deck. And we are seeing that now every day when we watch him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
It seems to get worse and worse and worse. Today, he was asked about this new ridiculous plan that he hatched over the weekend about Alcatraz, where he goes, okay, we're going to reopen Alcatraz. Alcatraz hasn't been open for what, 60 years as a prison? It's like a museum right now. It's a tourist attraction. It's the national parks. It's a popular tourist attraction.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And one of the reasons it was shut down is because it was far too expensive to operate. It was just incredibly inefficient to operate. But Donald Trump, apparently what some reporters are saying online right now is that on public access TV in Palm Beach over the weekend, the movie Escape from Alcatraz was playing and Donald Trump happened to catch a little bit of it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And Donald Trump hatched an idea to reopen Alcatraz. That is what folks are saying. And at first I thought that sounds a little outlandish. But then Donald Trump was asked about it today, and he started speaking about movies and how he should have been a filmmaker and how maybe he actually is a great filmmaker and went on this really bizarre rant when asked about Alcatraz about movies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Now, let's just break down Donald Trump's response to this question here because it is – truly just Donald Trump at his most unhinged. And Jordy, it goes to exactly what you were saying. So first, let's go to the first clip here where Donald Trump is asked about this, and you'll see how he started off his response.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
We're going to be loud about what we are seeing because it is quite literally psychotic, the stuff that we are witnessing. Great to be here with everybody. Remember to add the Midas Touch podcast on Apple Podcasts. Remember to add the Midas Touch podcast on Spotify. Leave us a five-star review if you can. Jordy, what's new on your end? I am excited for the show, brothers.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Believe it or not, it's a popular tourist destination. Like, we believe it. It's been like that for like 60 years. But Donald Trump wasn't done there. He goes on for, let's just play the next like 40 seconds or so.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
What? What? But no, he wasn't done with his response. Let's play a little bit more of that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
is interesting to watch the kind of the maggie influencers when stuff like that happens because like we're finding out right now that trump is actually now sending some advanced air defense systems to ukraine like he's sending more weapons to ukraine which is the thing that they always got mad at president biden about and they just don't say anything when when trump does it it's always interesting like when he actually like finally relents and does the right thing on certain issues that they actually can't celebrate like things that might actually be okay like
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
They totally memory hold the fact that Trump was the one who helped usher in, who did the vaccine, who did Operation Warp Speed. If I were the president of the United States when the COVID vaccine was developed, to me, that's something that you want to brag about.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
I know Trump had nothing to actually do with doing the vaccine itself, but you'd think that would be something that you'd say, oh, that was an accomplishment of my administration. We advanced science. No, they pretend that never even happened. And they pretend like that happened because of like Fauci and that it was an evil thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Like, it's just like, it's the craziest thing to kind of get into, you know, you don't even want it, but to get into the mindset of this kind of right wing MAGA ecosystem. What I would love to do is an experiment where, and we all know what the result would be of this experiment, but you ask people, you say, President Biden just did X, Y, and Z. What do you think about it?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Donald Trump just did X, Y, and Z. What do you think about it? And watch them give two completely different answers. I want to hear, President Biden just is offering $1,000 of taxpayer money to immigrants who are here illegally to self-deport. President Biden wants to give taxpayer money to people who are here illegally to go back to their home countries. How do you feel about that?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
I'm going to say that the MAGA, the Trump supporter, is going to have a much different answer to that question than the things they are saying about Donald Trump's idea to do just that, that he announced today. That's all I'm saying.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
It's a great job for Mochler. Great job. Yeah. Well,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
yeah i mean i i know you uh remember he did that video very uh intimate links you were very involved in all that but it's like i i really don't care whether it's you know goodell whether it's jeff bezos mark zuckerberg like all these people it's like what's what's the point of being that rich if like you're gonna just be so subservient to anybody like isn't the point isn't the point of having that kind of money so that you could like not
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
So you could have the freedom to not do that. Like you really needed to base and humiliate yourself like this, like just every single day. I just, I cannot fathom it. And yes, you know, Donald Trump posted it on his account. His follower, the White House then reposted it. The president of the United States account then reposted it. It's not like he was, it's not like it was an accident.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And this is also the guy, of course, who all the Trump supporters go, he writes his own content. He writes his own tweet. That's why I love him because he does everything himself. Okay, so now he doesn't do everything himself. Just like sometimes I just wish they could take the L move on, but they can't because they just need to constantly try to own the libs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And in this situation in particular, you know, they're actually upsetting people who are in mourning right now. They're upsetting Catholics who are mourning Pope Francis. And now he's just out there mocking him. It's not the liberal media who's upset about this. It's the people who he's speaking about. It's the people that he's openly mocking. That's why we've seen Catholic bishops speak out.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
That's why we've seen other Catholic organizations speak out against this. And Donald Trump just continues to double down and triple down on what is going on here. That's why you saw Karl Rove. I got to say, Ben, the only thing I'm upset about with you is that in the past few weeks, you've played clips that made me agree with Karl Rove and Steve Bannon and Ann Coulter and things like that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Like, I don't like that. I need to take a shower after this episode. It does not make sense.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
So I will I will say that first. Well, I feel like what Fox is constantly trying to be, though, to Trump in many ways is like a crisis PR firm and also a little bit of like a therapist for Trump and like an informal advisor to Trump. And they're trying to nudge him in the right direction constantly. You see Laura Ingraham doing this all the time, trying to be like – they try to play to his ego.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
He'd be really strong if he did X, Y, and Z. It's so pathetic when you actually kind of pick up on the cues that they're trying to send to Donald Trump. But Karl Rove is a guy, obviously, who is, you know, the evil mastermind of like the Bush administration. And he knows the data. He knows the numbers. He knows what's happening out there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
He knows how bad things are looking for Republicans in the midterms. So he that's his this is his way of saying, like, dude. You got to reel these things in. You got to at least pretend to care about prices. You got to at least pretend to care about any of this stuff that people actually elected you for because you are spiraling right now. You are completely off the rails.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And so what does Trump do? Trump just attacks the guy. Jordy, what are your thoughts?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And the frustrating thing is that, you know, There have been attempts to solve this issue now for decades, the immigration issue. And certainly, you know, there is blame to go around to all the parties here. But most recently, what happened? What did we see just about a year ago? We saw a bipartisan immigration bill that was touted by President Biden at the time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And we saw him deal with very conservative members of the United States Congress in order to try to get this thing passed. And what was in this bill? One of the most important things that we could possibly use to help the immigration process, which is having more judges, more immigration judges.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Part of the backlog, one of the reasons for the backlog that we have with the whole system is because we simply do not have the manpower in the judicial system in order to handle all of this. We were trying to solve this just a year ago.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
Donald Trump himself was the person who torpedoed all of this, in addition to a bunch of other officials and officers and stuff who would also help facilitate all of this stuff. So it's a typical Republican thing right here that we are seeing, which is sabotage the solution and then continue to try to run on the problem and blame other people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
It's something that we see time and time again, and it's no different right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And let me just say, you know why? Because Donald Trump is a failure. Donald Trump is a complete and total failure through and through. And his presidency this term has been no different than the rest of his life. A complete and total failure. When you look at all of the objective metrics, Donald Trump has failed.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
When you look at immigration, how he's handling immigration, he's actually deporting fewer people than President Biden did. He had a lot to say about President Biden and his deportations. He's actually deporting fewer people. He's making a big scene out of it. He's trying to turn everything into this TV moment, this kind of real life twisted episode of cops.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
And he's actually deporting the wrong people rather than getting rid of criminals. He's getting rid of like innocent people and people who are actually citizens and all this stuff. But Trump is actually deporting fewer people. Donald Trump promised that prices were gonna go down right away. Prices are higher, even though he likes to pretend that they're not.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
He liked to pretend that inflation was gonna go away. Not the case. He would like to pretend that his tariffs were going to solve everything. Well, they did not. If you go through every little subject matter, every topic, Donald Trump has been a failure. So what's the only thing that he could do to try to claim success?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
It's to try to do these performative antics that grab the headlines and don't mean anything. They're just like ridiculous, like what a two-year-old might say, like, What would you do if you were president? I would name, do a parade for myself. I would do Alcatraz. He just shouts out all these things because those things are like easy to him, right? He doesn't have to actually work with Congress.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/6/25
He doesn't actually have to do the actual work that it entails to really be a leader, to really be a president, to rename the Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America, or to say, I want to reopen Alcatraz. He can't get the real stuff done. So he's so focused on all of these sideshows.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
hitting stock market record after record. Now, here's the article on the right. This one's from Business Insider. This is an article from December 2024. The probability of a US recession in 2025 is 0%. Once again, not couching it in 2.5%, 5%, not even giving them any bit of room for error here. They said it was 0%. Here's what to worry about instead. Well, here we are. It
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Three months later, and we are in a place now where economists are predicting a full-blown recession later this year. We're looking at the Dow Jones having absolute collapse. We saw it in real time. I think Donald Trump today was actually trying to pump up the markets because the markets started out not so good. So he held this kind of press conference.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
He started speaking about some investments in Arizona. You saw the markets kind of coming up a little bit. They were still down, but they were rising just a little bit. Then he's got to the tariffs. And in real time, they just started tanking and tanking so hard that we showed you that Fox clip earlier. Fox put up a Dow watch, the Dow watch to show people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
And I'm surprised that they even did that, to be honest, to show people how it was collapsing. And so now we're dealing with the real realities of this, of these tariffs, of the stock market, of people losing their jobs, of these government jobs going away. People are filing jobless claims every week they're going up.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
We're in a really bad place as a country, and they're not going to be able to outrun this reality for long. I think we're already at that point.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
just across the board and you have all like the you had them pushing also this idea like oh you know whatever happens with trump though you know the stock market's going to go crazy and you know who's really excited also crypto people crypto people are super psyched well how excited are they now i think bitcoin is down below where it was when trump took office um all these markets are crashing and we're going to get into his bitcoin scam in a little bit that he tried to pull where he was pumping all these these these meme coins and these coins
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Yeah, like if you want to like steal your buddy's phone and just add the Midas Touch podcast, like no one's going to, you know, no one will be mad about that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
When you watch that too, I know everyone doesn't have street smarts per se, but I don't think you need a lot of street smarts to listen to that and go, oh, I'm being scammed. I'm being scammed right now. And it's all these people in the Trump administration. Every time they open their mouth, I'm like, it's so obvious a scam that how isn't 95% of the country catching on to what is going on?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
I'm thinking even about the Kudlow clip. And by the way, Kudlow was in the previous Trump administration. He's now the Fox host who covers Kudlow. like the economy, and it has been wrong literally about everything. I think if you go back to Kudlow during the 2008, 2009 market crash, he's like, things are about to be great. Everything's about to be awesome. Get ready for prosperity, folks.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Economy crashes. You could definitely make a super cut of Larry Kudlow throughout the past four decades, and he will say the wrong thing right before a major economic catastrophe happens.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
like every single time these guys are fraudsters they're scammers and they're all built in the image of donald trump and it's just so disturbing that people aren't catching on to these scams but um you know but like i keep saying though they're not going to be able to outrun this reality for long trump's approval ratings are are plummeting quickly his handling of the economy is a disaster
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
His approval rating amongst independents is an absolute disaster. People are pissed off. And you're also taking away people's jobs, a lot of Republicans' jobs. There have been programs, and I feel like a lot of people forget this. There have been so many programs throughout the past few decades in order to help veterans that have prioritized veterans getting jobs in the federal government.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Some may call it part of DEI initiatives. Oh, yeah, they don't like those. Guess what? The I stands for inclusion and including veterans in our government is part of that, including disabled people in our government is all part of that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
These are the policies that they got rid of, and now they are firing the federal workforce, which contains a large number of veterans, a lot of them who are Republicans. We're seeing this play out over and over and over again right now, just the ruthlessness in which they are handling our economy, the callousness in which they are treating the people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
I just cannot even imagine if even the fringiest of fringe Democrats – I don't even know who that would be –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
went on tv and said that their constituents the things that they are saying that they're fake that they're imposters ignoring the will of the people i saw one of these um uh republicans i think it was in in tennessee i think it was posted by tennessee holler who does incredible work the people in the crowd in this deep red district were pissed off because they were giving all these giveaways to billionaires and making elon musk richer and doing all these things
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Instead of leveling with the people and saying, you know what, you're right, we need to be doing more things for working class Americans, the woman went on a rant defending the rich saying, well, the 1% actually are responsible for the growth in our country, and the 1% actually pay the most in tax. How could you possibly – say that to your own constituents. They never go full trickle.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
They really just do not care about their people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
And there is just such incredible brainwashing that has happened thanks to outlets like Fox and thanks to social media outlets that are controlled by these same billionaires that are putting their thumb on the scale of these algorithms in order to control people, in order to push them to support policies that screw them, but help the billionaires who are controlling them. It's just it's obvious.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
And I just urge everybody to constantly be on guard anytime you hear these people speak, because I just feel it like I feel it in my bones when I hear a Lutnick speak.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
It all makes more sense when you view it through the lens of it's basically, I mean, it is, it's Russian propaganda. And it's the Trump administration's version of Russia propaganda. I mean, it's the same way that they operate. And they invent these new narratives that don't actually reflect reality.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Like this reality, this narrative that Zelensky was the one who misbehaved during that meeting is just so preposterous. It doesn't even deserve like a fact check.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
But you all know how ridiculous it is that they're turning it into that Zelensky was the one who was acting up, but not Donald Trump screaming like a madman at this war hero who's here just asking for help and has expressed his gratitude numerous times, just coming from it for a normal meeting. Zelensky has visited all the world leaders, as we've been reporting on in this episode.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
I just had a summit in Europe with the world leaders as well. Guess what? This has never happened before. because none of these other leaders are maniacs like Donald Trump are maniacs. I mean, it's absurd that we have to watch this clown show every single day as our alliances just get completely destroyed. And like all Russian propaganda, these lies just get repeated over and over and over again.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
One of the lies that I frequently see on social media, anytime you show any bit of support for Ukraine now on social media, the comments that you get are, okay, so I guess you're going to sign up and you're going to go over there and you're going to fight for Ukraine, right? Then pack your bags, get on over there, sign up.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
The reason why we actually give aid to Ukraine is so that Americans don't have to ever risk their lives in a war in Europe. That's the whole purpose of the aid. You think we're just doing this out of the goodness of our hearts? I mean, yes, it's a good thing that we are helping our ally Ukraine in this fight against Russian aggression, but do you think that's the reason?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Or do you think the reason is because once Putin, if he were to take Ukraine, he would go and he would try to take Poland. He would try to take other nations throughout Europe. That would embroil the United States in a world war. what we are doing are taking preventative measures against a war.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
We're taking preventative measures against your sons and your daughters having to go overseas and fight against Russia as they try to do what Hitler did back in the 30s and expand their territory. That is the whole reason for these alliances. That is the whole reason for these aides. And once again, like the good little Russian propagandists they are,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
They try to take the concept, which is we are trying to prevent these wars. We are trying to prevent further aggression. We are trying to prevent Americans from having to go overseas and fight these battles. And they go, oh, so you want to go to war.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
And then they try to pretend like they are somehow the peace candidates and the party of peace when actually President Biden was the one who actually kept us out of entering any new wars. President Biden was the one who actually removed us from the war in Afghanistan, even if it was a little sloppy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
He removed us from the war in Afghanistan, which no president has been able to do in decades and decades and decades. And so those are just like the facts. They could twist them all they want, but that is actually the reality of what is going on. And they just continue to twist reality.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
tell me about it tell me about it i gotta say for an allegedly very smart person uh he's not very good at explaining things because that was not he did not what he described was not a ponzi scheme either i don't even know what he's talking about still and i've heard the extended clip as well as so you have rogan who launders the oligarchs he's not beating the allegations under the subterfuge of comedy
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Yeah, I mean, there's not much more to it than that. But Donald Trump announced that crypto is going to be great again and that we're going to have these crypto reserves. And America's crypto reserve is going to be the first of its kind. And we're going to start with these five crypto coins.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
And the five crypto coins that Donald Trump picked just so happen to be the exact five crypto coins that make up the portfolio of of a company that David Sachs is a major investor in. David Sachs being the Donald Trump's crypto czar who's big into crypto. He hosts a podcast and he's definitely been a big Trump propagandist over these past few years.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
But now I even see a lot of these crypto people kind of freaking out because all the value of Every time he does this, it might pump Bitcoin. It might pump some of these other coins that Donald Trump is picking and choosing winners. They might pump up for a little bit, but then they end up crashing. It's just another pump and dump scheme that we're seeing from the administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
It's just scam money. on top of scam on top of scam and you know i think you know that it's getting bad when when you start seeing uh the language of the propaganda shift and we pointed out a few weeks ago when we noticed how bad prices were getting under trump and and that we started seeing all those propagandists kind of in unison say stuff like
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
it's patriotic, patriotic to pay more folks, patriotic, pay more. It's more, it's patriotic. Get those tariffs. It's like, y'all are the same people who complained when eggs were $2.99. Now they're like 12 bucks, 15 bucks in some cases. And you're saying it's patriotic, like at least show some consistency. Jeez, have some dignity.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Well, now I'm seeing a lot of people going out there and they're saying, so what if the housing market crashes? So what if the US economy collapses? That'd be a good thing. We could use a big economic collapse right now, guys. Let me explain to you why this is good. And I'm already seeing that start to percolate on these MAGA propaganda accounts.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
And it's just so obvious the direction things are heading when you see them start to kind of plant their flags in those regards. But this was Elon Musk's. This is what he said. Right. He said pain said he's going to inflict pain. And that's exactly what's happening right now. And, you know, I think we tweeted out like right after the election, things are going to get a whole lot worse.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
That was the evergreen post of the century. Every single day, things just continue to get worse.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Welcome, everybody. Welcome, brothers, and welcome, everybody listening and watching. It's just the whole thing. It's all beyond parody. And I remember, you know, when we would be hitting stock market record after record after record and they'd cut to Kudlow on Fox, he would step in and say something hard. The economy in shambles. It really is state regime media.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
And not enough people realize that. Like, I don't know if this audience realizes that, but a lot of people watch Fox and think because they're on a set, because they have, you know, business shows and all this other sort of the iconography of news channels that it's actual news, but it's completely fake.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
no i think that sounds great um well said and you know i'm thinking back to the town hall that keith keith self town hall um in that texas uh district where the people were shouting at him do your job uh do your job i love seeing that energy i want to see it all over the country but i'm also going to put it back on you the listeners and i'm going to put it back on all the republicans and independents and if there are democrats in those districts as well in those red districts you also people we all have to be doing our job as well
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
which is, to Ben's point, informing the public, making our voices heard, never letting anybody gaslight us into pretending that this is normal, pushing back against that garbage, and when the time comes, making sure that everybody shows up at the polls and does their thing. I love seeing the reckonings in these town halls.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
The thing that really just bothers me the most right now is we could have been chilling right now, fellas. We could have been working, building on the success of the economy, working our way on up. GDP was predicted to be somewhere between 2% and 3% in 2025 with Biden's policies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
It's going to mean nothing if people don't actually show up and take action. And so we need to convert this into action. We need to look inward at ourselves rather than just looking at all the spineless politicians we see out there and demanding action from them. Let's also demand action from ourselves and from our friends and from our family. And let's keep this fight alive.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
I just want to say one thing now that we're talking about Michael Popock, just because we have so many new audio listeners lately and the audience continues to grow every single day. Michael Popock, Ben, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, he used to be the number two at the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. Dina Dahl, incredible lawyer, legal analyst.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
They all do a show called Legal AF, which is on the Midas Touch Network. I know a lot of people constantly ask us for updates on the various cases that are happening, the various legal cases at all levels of the courts, up all the way up to the Supreme Court. We have a show dedicated to all the legal, and it's great. It's called Legal AF.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
If you look up Legal AF by Midas Touch, you'll find it on Apple and Spotify. And I know that all of you who love this show are going to love nerding out with all the legal stuff and staying up to date on all that stuff. So check it out. And then on that note, now I'll hand it over to you, Jay.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
We could have just been hanging out, not destroying our alliances overseas, not threatening to invade other countries, just enjoying what we've built over the past few years and continuing to build on that progress in order to make things better for Americans. But instead, It's just Donald Trump and these just lunatics inflicting pain on everybody.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
But the good news, we see folks rising up across the country, including in deep red areas, as Ben was alluding to earlier. And you could tell they're afraid about this because of the lies that they are trying to come up with around this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
they're fake protesters these aren't actually uh republicans in these republican districts these are paid soros protesters man that's soros guy all over the map according to these people i like how the democrats are also the most incompetent party on the planet that cannot put two and two together cannot organize a single thing yet they're able to brilliantly organize all these protests across these countries small districts big districts everywhere
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
They're actually brilliant geniuses, right? That was the strategy they used with Biden, right, too. He was both senile and a mastermind who masterminded every single criminal prosecution against Donald Trump, no matter the state, no matter the district. These people are utter clowns. We're going to break it all down. First, I got to toss it over to Jordy. Jordy, what's new?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Let me draw a flow chart for you, Jordy. Stock market good? Yeah. Line goes to Trump. Stock market bad.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
I think Fox has that chart in their bathrooms, actually.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Russia is overjoyed right now, and they can't even contain their excitement on their propaganda networks and in the statements coming out of the Kremlin. And we have Donald Trump, J.D. Vance, Elon Musk, all this. Elon Musk, by the way, throughout the weekend, kept tweeting all these bad things about NATO, along with these Republican Congress people saying that we need to get out of NATO.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
NATO has been a tremendous success, an incredible defensive alliance that has resulted in the longest era of peace ever. amongst these European nations in the history of the world. And they want to get rid of this because why? Because it's Vladimir Putin's wet dream that he has had now for decades and decades and decades. And Elon Musk wants to make that a reality for him. And it's just dangerous.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
The stuff they're doing is just reckless and dangerous. And I guess that's the point of it, but real people are getting hurt. And as I've said on the show, and I'll say it again, I'll say it every single episode, that they could only outrun reality for so long. And reality is quickly catching up to them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Ben, as we see the stock markets collapse the way they're collapsing, as these Trump supporters are going to look in their bank accounts, as they're going to see their 401ks every single day, just the money just pouring on out of their accounts, as these farmers are going to wake up and they're going to realize that they're not able to export their goods anymore, they're not going to import any goods that they need anymore.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
As these factories are going to close down, especially the auto industry is going to be hit super hard. These tariffs, he moved the China tariff up to 20% now. That's going to be devastating for Americans. The 25% in Canada and in Mexico is going to be devastating for Americans. Whole industries may be wiped out. And you know what?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
Elon Musk did say before the election that he was going to inflict pain on the American people. So I guess in that regard, a promise is made, a promise is kept from this administration because people are feeling the pain. And whether they want to try to claim these people are fake protesters and aren't really angry or not, the reality is that they are, and this is going to come back to haunt them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
The American people are going to continue to rise up. And Ben, just going back, because I don't want anybody to think like, oh, there's no way the media predicted a 100% recession under Biden. Who would make such a bold prediction of not even couching it in like 99%, 99.9%? 100%, baby. 100% means that sounds pretty definitive, if you ask me. Literally, Bloomberg, here's the forecast.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
This was October 2022. On the left, for those listening, I have an article up from Bloomberg. Forecast for US recession within year hits 100% in blow to Biden. Hits 100% in blow to Biden. 100%. 100%. They were very confident of that. And it was articles like this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
This, by the way, is kind of around the exact same time that Biden's approval rating started to fall, actually, kind of August, September 17th, 2022.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/4/25
So think about that now and think about the narrative that was set with the Biden economy as the Biden economy was growing and ended up growing significantly throughout those four years. 100% chance of recession never ended up happening. In fact, the economy ended up having a great deal of growth over those next few years. We had some months of 4% growth, 3% growth.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Yeah, it's every single time. And also, by the way,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
i want to reiterate this too the beginning of all the deals like the i mean like the beginning of all these problems when donald trump explains the reasons why he's imposing tariffs on these countries or wants to get it's always predicated on just fake information it's always predicated on just lies like he talks about when he talks about these massive trade deficits with canada and he says all this fentanyl is coming in from canada and he says that they owe us all this
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
money. You look under the surface of all these comments, it's like, what are you even talking about here? There's no anything that makes any sense to all of this. We'll get to this a little later, probably, but it reminds me of what he did out here in California with the water issue, just making up
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
what was going on with the fires inventing a fake solution claiming he solved it while actually making the problem worse what i think is going to be interesting in this situation is that and one of the things i'm so impressed by too and we have a lot of canadian listeners here i want to say shout out to canada you guys have been incredible you guys have stayed strong it's because of you
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
by the way, Maple Mighty, Maple Midas, it's because of you that Donald Trump folded. I mean that genuinely, because if you folded, Donald Trump would have taken that as an opportunity to actually move ahead with his plan to try to make Canada the 51st state. I think he's serious. about that stuff. I actually do.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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But because you all united, I guess, except for Ben, who's that politician, Danielle Smith, because everybody else except Danielle Smith got together and they said, we're not going to give up our national sovereignty. And I thought that was a really powerful statement to see across party lines.
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to see NDP leaders, to see liberal leaders, to see conservative leaders coming together and saying, you ain't doing shit to Canada, Donald Trump. I love what Charlie Angus had to say. I think he basically paraphrases it like, hey, we're sorry in Canada till we're not. Don't mistake our kindness for weakness here in Canada. And it's true. I mean, we saw that in full swing.
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I thought that was incredibly cool. And the ripple effect, though, is going to be vast. I've already seen the stores in Canada, pictures of the stores in Canada. that now have made in Canada signs over all their goods. They're relegating the American goods to other sections. People keep telling us people are checking all the products to see if they're made in America so that they don't buy them.
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We're getting a lot of comments on our social media about this that says, well, that's too late that Donald Trump reversed this. You don't talk about our country like that. We are still boycotting American products. We've seen those by the thousands, thousands and thousands of comments like that.
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We saw Doug Ford, the premier of Ontario, come out and cancel their massive multi-billion dollar contract with Starlink over this, saying we're not going to support companies who are owned by people who want to destroy our country. Let's see if that cancellation of those contracts remain. But those are all... devastating effects already against the United States from Canada, all for what?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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For nothing, to announce a deal that happened under the Biden administration, to announce things that were already going on. For what? For what reason? Why crash the markets? Why do all this? Just because you want to soothe your ego like a maniacal madman. It's just so ridiculous. It's so insane. But shout out to Canada for standing up and standing strong, I got to say.
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And Ben, I want to add this. There's a new energy right now. I could feel it. I know you all could feel it out there. And I think these last few weeks have woken a lot of people up. And I think looking at Canada, I think we could take a lot from their example that they just showed us up there, right? They showed us how to fight.
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They showed people how to rise up, how to fight back against fascism, how to push back against authoritarianism. Same thing with Mexico and Claudia Scheinbaum. This is an example that we all need to take, and especially our politicians. They need to take it also. And I think they're starting to wake up just a little bit, maybe slowly. the yawning stage. Oh, we've got to get enough of the bed.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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But we actually are starting to see finally some fight in them, like with this USAID issue. We saw them. We'll talk about that in this show also. But you see people waking up. You see people taking the streets. And I think our energy right now is at such a key point. And so we got to keep up this momentum and keep going because Donald Trump's weakness is showing right now more than ever.
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And it's because of you. It's because of you.
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All right, real talk for a second. Why do we put up with uncomfortable clothes? I mean, it's 2025. We've got like self-driving cars and AI doing all sorts of wild stuff. And yet some pants still feel like they were designed by medieval blacksmiths. No, thanks. That's why I am obsessed with public rec.
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Their pants are ridiculously comfortable, like sweatpants level comfort, but my favorite part is that they actually look good. No stiff seams, no weird bagginess, just perfectly tailored pants that move with you. Public Rec isn't just about pants either.
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They've got polos, shorts, hoodies, you know, the kind of stuff you can wear to work, to dinner, just lounge it at home without looking like you just rolled out of bed. And here's the best part, unlike other brands that just give you like small, medium, and large, Public Rec lets you pick your exact waist and inseam size so they fit like they were made for you.
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After I got my first pair of Public Rec pants in the dark olive color, I literally went back on the site and bought them in every single color. True story. So this February, treat yourself right because comfort is always in season. Upgrade to Public Rec and feel the difference. For a limited time, you can get 20% off at Public Rec by using code MIDUS20 at checkout.
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Just head to publicrec.com, use code MIDUS20, that's M-E-I-D-A-S-2-0, and you're all set. Oh, and when they ask how you found them, be sure to mention our show. It really helps us out. Find your perfect fit and never compromise on comfort again. Public Rec, where comfort rules.
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I've tried Vya's products and they truly stand out. They have these dreams sleep gummies that always help me unwind after a crazy day, and after covering all the chaos in the world every single day, trust me, it helps a ton.
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This month of love, elevate your love life with Vaya.
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Eggs were way too expensive under Biden, but actually paying a lot of money, it's actually very patriotic. And we all have to pay more to support dear leader Trump, Ben. You know what I'm thinking? I'm liking when things were sleepy. You know, they tried to say Sleepy Joe as a little bit of an insult. I would like it when things were relaxing, when I could go to sleep at night.
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Can you even imagine having a surplus? It seems like such a foreign concept. We had a surplus in the United States in the 90s. I know it's kind of long ago at this point, but it's not that long ago.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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That's what I like to consider Sleepy Joe. When I could go to sleep knowing that our country was in good hands. And right now it's just chaos, chaos, chaos every single day. Stunt after stunt after stunt. And it's sad because it has real world ramifications.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
When he plays these games like he just did with the tariff, he obviously tanked the market initially when he made the initial tariff threat and said they were going into effect. But he also ruined our relationship with our allies very quickly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
There's been a new story on this every week. CBS was the latest one to do this. They did the reporting on Trump's turning on the water valves today. So CBS reported that Trump almost flooded. You heard that right.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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Trump almost flooded the Central Valley of California by instructing the Army Corps of Engineers to release billions of gallons of water from two reservoirs in California's Central Valley. Get this as well. If farmers did not talk the Army Corps into stopping the water flow, so they had to stop it, He turned it on. They had to stop it. There would have been serious flooding.
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Farmers are now worried that the water they rely upon for the dry summer season has now been wasted, and the farmers are, quote, they say it is assumed to be lost, that Donald Trump just took the water that they were relying upon for later seasons when it gets drier, and he wasted it. He basically flushed it down the toilet. And now they're not able to use it in the future when it gets drier.
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And it's very disheartening to me to look at these images coming out of various countries to see Canada booing us or booing Trump, at least, and booing what's happening to our country at these sports arenas. And by the way, I stand in total solidarity with them on that. I want to be clear about that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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So he screwed over the farmers and he almost destroyed all their farms and the entire town by flooding it. Not only that, none of this, 0%, 0.0000% of this magical water that he's talking about turning on comes anywhere near California. It's not even in the same vicinity of California. It's not even the same region of California.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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There is not a single way to even get it from where it is to California. To Los Angeles. Sorry, to Los Angeles. Yeah, it's in California. See, Jordy, sometimes you get brain mush. What are you going to do? But to Los Angeles. And the thing is, all the firefighters are looking at this and they're going, we couldn't use this water for the fires. What are you doing? Like, this is the stupidest thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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Anybody who knows even a little bit about like the water policy in california or firefighting in california anyone has an expertise in in anything around those areas is speaking out loudly and going like this guy doesn't know what the hell he's talking about i've seen memes about like elon musk and And I think probably about Trump too.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
It's kind of one of those rehash memes about people that says like – this one was I think specifically about Musk. But it was like when he talked about cars, I thought he was a genius because I don't know anything about cars. When he talked about coding, I assumed he was a genius because I don't know anything about coding.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
When he talked about my specialty, I realized, oh, this guy is a freaking moron. Knows nothing about anything. And I think that's always a big wake-up call to a lot of people this time when he's talking about this issue that actually a lot of people know quite about and deal with here in California and in Los Angeles. And you see that the guy is completely just making things up.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
And not only that, worse, making the problem worse and making a dangerous situation that later on might be a devastating situation, quite frankly, for California, which he then blames on Gavin Newsom and Democrats and then does this whole big scheme again.
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But then looking across the world and seeing what the people of Greenland are saying about us, looking at what people of Denmark are saying about us, looking at what the folks down in Panama are doing, burning American flags, burning American dolls and effigy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
And you see the resentment that Donald Trump is creating with his bluster, with these stunts, with the nonstop drama that we just didn't have. America was the beacon of the world. We were a global leader. Donald Trump has removed our status as that, and he has allowed China, quite frankly, to fill the void and has really abdicated our leadership. I think it's very sad.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
But, you know, we could also cover everything, right? We got to keep our eye on the ball of what Donald Trump is doing, the destructive nature of what he's doing right now in our federal government. And so we're going to be keeping our eyes on that, everything Elon Musk is doing at Treasury, at USAID, at all these organizations, at all these agencies. We're going to be keeping track of all of it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
We're going to break it all down on this show. First, Jordi, how you doing?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Ben did win president of the school.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Yeah. And I want to be clear about one thing. The tax filing, it still exists. So if you need to file your taxes this year, e-file still currently exists as of this moment.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
but we don't know what's going to happen to it and it's certainly not a good sign that elon musk is saying that he quote deleted the team who's responsible for it and who built it and you know this is also probably just a shot at elizabeth warren as well he hates elizabeth warren because elizabeth warren has gone after him in the past for his uh business shady business activities and um and elizabeth warren ushered in the direct file system of the legislation a few years ago and this is like an extremely bipartisan
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Like people like it. Americans should be able to file their taxes for free. They should be able to do this in an easy way. And it's ridiculous that it took this long for it to happen. But it finally did happen during the Biden administration. And to rip this away from people, it's really absurd.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
It's it's something that, you know, literally I'm going to sound like that viral Biden line, but helps nobody hurts nobody. You know, it's. It's true. It helps. I mean, it helps everybody, hurts nobody. This is something that is just an asset for people to help them out, to pay their taxes to the government, to help them pay the government money. It should be as easy and streamlined as possible.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Our tax system is already as complicated as could be. In regards to the other language you were speaking about, Ben, the language of conquest that Donald Trump is using towards these countries who just want to live.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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um it's the language of an abuser you know when he's calling eu when he's saying they're abusive towards us when he's saying canada they are abusive towards us never has anybody in the history said you know who's really abusive towards us the the united states of america you know who really needs to get what they deserve Canada. Yep, Canada. That's right.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Never been said ever, maybe until Donald Trump said it, and now his brainless minions who follow him parrot his everything. The last point I want to make is how quickly the messaging changes from MAGA, depending on what Donald Trump says. He could literally say anything and they just go along.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
For the past few years, this whole MAGA movement pretended like they were this anti-interventionalist movement. You know, we should do our own thing. Other countries should do their own thing. You know, we shouldn't be helping other countries. We shouldn't be doing hurt another. We should just be, you know... Other countries' problems are their problems.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
We're just going to do our thing and we're just going to let everything be. Oh, wait, you want to help Ukraine by helping them not even getting into the war but helping them buy weapons, US weapons, which is going to actually make America more money? But you want to help out an ally so that Russia doesn't take over all of Europe? Oh, you're a warmonger. You're a warmonger.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
oh, but Donald Trump gets into office, all these people are like, like the way they speak, there was like a, I don't even know if I have it, but there's like a Tim Pool tweet out there that's like, Canada's gonna see the vengeance of the United States when we prevail in our imperialist ways and crush them underneath the wrath of a thousand fires. Like it's like a, that's not it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
I'm like paraphrasing one of his like crazy tweets, but it's that ridiculous is my like exaggeration of the tweet because all of a sudden now they're like, we're conquerors, right? We need to conquer the world. They went from America shouldn't intervene in any other country even just with aid and acting like Biden is some warmonger.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Well, by the way, Biden, even though there's this public perception that he did, didn't get us into any wars. The United States did not enter any wars. No American troops entered any wars and, in fact, was maybe the first president in –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
decades to actually get us out of wars by getting us out of afghanistan which ironically was the thing that kind of sunk his approval rating and he never recovered from and he got a whole lot of crap from um biden took us out of wars now donald trump is trying to spark confrontation with our allies like not even with people who are threatening us with canada with panama with columbia with greenland i mean with mexico you could go with the eu you could go on and on about the people that he is targeting right now and this whole mega movement now is all like yeah
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
we're going to conquer them all and America's going to manifest destiny this and, and it's just, they're all frauds. When you really look at it, they're all frauds. They believe nothing except raw power. And so you need to throw raw power back at them. You need to stand up to them because it's the only way that they are going to back down.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
It's the only way you got to stay strong and you got to understand that really in these cases, the emperor has no clothes and we are going to see that time and time again.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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Here's the thing that bothers me, just to say very briefly. I'm going to put aside the fact that we already have an actual organization, or office rather, department within the government right now that is responsible for...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
way the money's managed and making sure there's no fraud and making sure that federal spending is happening appropriately and u.s government accountability office literally exists that's the real doge already exists doge is actually by its nature is inefficient but let's let's put that aside for a second if somebody like an elon musk actually came in and was like you know we're going to review things we we think that there's inefficiencies a lot of agencies have grown quickly and and we think that we could curb the bloat and see if there are any redundancies and and we're gonna we're gonna dig in and do that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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I would be like, okay, that sounds fair. But that's clearly not what he's doing. He's taking political vengeance and personal vengeance against certain agencies that he views as scorn to many people believe that one of the reasons that he's going at USAID with such force right now is because they played a pivotal role in ending apartheid in South Africa.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
So a lot of people think that Elon Musk is furious about their actions then, helping to eradicate apartheid, and so he is now trying to fight back against them there. And then it's also the language that Elon Musk uses, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
When Elon Musk is trying to investigate these agencies, if you were being an honest broker of the issues right here, you would say, okay, I'm gonna look in, I'll check the budgets, I'm gonna make sure, we'll do an audit, we'll make sure the numbers line up, we'll make sure everything's cool. Make sure that it's as efficient as possible.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
But what Elon Musk does is he goes online, he goes on Twitter and three, four, five, six, seven times a day calls the hardworking employees at these organizations criminals. He uses that word. He said, these are criminals. You are criminals. They are criminal. And that to me is such an escalation and it is so inappropriate. And it really...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
It shows his ulterior motives here, that they're really not in good faith at all. And he's also setting it up to try to use the government to weaponize the judicial system against people who disagree with them, to arrest people, to lock people up, and to do all sorts of things like that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
So they say one thing, but when you look at what they're actually doing and the way they're actually carrying things out, you always have to actually look at that because the way that Elon Musk is going about this, it's very fashy. It's very fascist. It's very authoritarian. And it's not something that you see in developed countries.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
It's not something you see certainly in the United States of America, you know, I guess until now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
You know, we remember the Republicans taking those actions, you know, all throughout the Biden administration, holding things up. And of course, you know, the thing that we always also have to remember, because, you know, it's we don't also become the people who just say do something, do something, do something, do something, do something when things are maybe impossible to be done.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
But we need to do everything that can be done, you know, and go up to that line at all times. And this is a tactic that is important because we have to realize what this tactic is. This is a good example right here with this tactic, right? It's going to delay Donald Trump's state nominees. It's going to frustrate the hell out of Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
It's tactically a very smart thing that they should be doing. Republicans would 100% be doing it if anybody was pulling something one hundredth of what Donald Trump and Elon Musk are doing. We have to understand at the end of the day, those nominees will still probably get through, right? The Democrats don't have the majority, but Democrats need to flex their power where they have it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
If they have the ability to delay these nominations right now, Take it. Look for every opportunity that you can right now to make these people's lives hell. Take it. Show that you're defending the American people. Show that you're defending these federal workers. Show that you're defecting the humanitarian aid. People view these things positively.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
As Ben said, popular issues and good policy, and it's the right thing to do. So do it. Don't be afraid.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
trade war war threats they added another 10 to 15 000 troops across the border you better take a look at this look at look what i was just able to find look at this on the canadian government website from what's that date let me let me squint at that date for a second december 17th 2024 the government of canada announces an investment of what the exact amount of this deal
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
From Donald Trump, $1.3 billion to bolster border security and strengthen the immigration system and contribute to Canada's future prosperity to help detect and disrupt the fentanyl trade. And what the language matches exactly with Justin Trudeau's tweet that he put out about the deal with Donald Trump. How did he time travel back to December 17th to post, oh, the deal was already in place.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Donald Trump, literally made a deal to return us to the status quo of the things that were already happening. This is the dumbest thing ever. He needed to declare a win. And when you like go through exactly what Trump did here, it is just like the most pathetic thing. I'll recap it for you. We recap things here at Midas Touch, right Ben? Did a quick little recap. Trump announces the tariffs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Our allies turn against us. They launch boycotts on U.S. products, which, by the way, are still ongoing in Canada. We'll get to that again and we'll get to that some more in a second. They boo us at events. You saw the clips yesterday and today in arenas and the Toronto Arena and the Calgary Arena and the Ottawa Arena and more of Canadian fans booing the U.S. during the national anthem.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
because they are outraged over the way that our government is treating them, booing our government, I should say. Canadians like the people of the United States, at least the ones who didn't vote for Trump. And then the markets nosedive today. We saw a huge crash when the markets opened. We saw the futures market absolutely devastated. Trump gets nervous. Trump caves.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Trump rushes to call the president of Mexico. He rushes to call the prime minister of Canada to make a deal. He needs to show something. He needs to show a win, right? It's the same things he did, by the way, back in when he won in 2016. Same exact strategy. So how does he show a win? Well, he has to say that he got them to concede on these issues.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
And so what are the concessions, the concessions that are made? Mexico agrees to do literally the same things they always do at the border.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
the same things they always do things they did under biden and biden didn't have to cause an economic um and political crisis in order to do this he just spoke to them and they agreed to do this you know like normal allies do and so here's one of the interesting things also though
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
President Claudia Sheinbaum of Mexico actually pulled one over on Donald Trump because in addition to her saying that she is going to do the things that Mexico already does, she got Trump to agree. And Trump's word isn't exactly worth anything, but she got Trump to agree that the United States was going to look into weapons trafficking from the United States into Mexico.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Now, what's interesting about that also? Well, when you read the two sides of the deal, Claudia Scheinbaum, by the way, the most brilliant move, and Justin Trudeau did this as well, got out in front of it before Donald Trump announced this side of the deal. So they took to social media right away when the deal was made. They announced exactly what was in the deal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Claudia Scheinbaum mentioned all the components, right? She mentioned the 10,000 troops, which were always there. She mentioned the 10,000 troops. She also mentioned the weapons trade, the arms trade from the United States into Mexico. Donald Trump writes up his little post on his app. He fails to mention the weapons trade. He fails to mention that Claudia Scheinbaum got him to agree to her terms.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
that was mysteriously left out and so i think as we see all these things and it was one of the things you guys that we were talking about actually on this very show last week it was the need to understand that donald trump's statements and press releases from the white house are not to be trusted and you have to view these as if they are truth social posts oftentimes they are true social posts like this one was a truth social post and so what the media needs to do and what
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
listeners of news, what consumers of news need to do in order to be healthy consumers of news is to understand that what Donald Trump's saying is probably not the truth and not to buy his spin and to understand that whatever he is putting out is simply his propaganda and that there is always going to be a truth underneath it, likely that refutes exactly what he is saying.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
So in this case, he tries to act tough, say he got these concessions when in fact, He got actually absolutely nothing. And he is now just repeating deals that were already negotiated during the Biden administration and trying to claim them as a win for himself. You know, it's just the same old scheme every single time. And at the end of the day, I mean, you got to just tell it how it is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump FOLDING + MORE
Like Trump caved here. He totally, totally caved.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
And you could either accept the fact that that's what they think of you, or you could actually do your own research, as I'm sure many of you say, and actually look up the facts. Spending is coming in 7.4% higher this year than last year. Higher this year than last year. That's what it's on pace for. And it was not on pace for that under President Biden. I want that to be clear as well.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
So while you hear about all these cuts and stuff, it's why they also highlight like this, like... these very tiny things like we canceled everybody's Adobe Photoshop subscriptions. I'm like, okay, what are we doing here, people? Like now, okay, now the people who need to make graphics can't make graphics. Now you canceled Microsoft Word for people so they can't like open documents.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Like that's not making the government more efficient. It's making government less efficient. And you're using that as cover to literally steal from people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Jordan, did you see that with the outfit? I mean, in the words of everybody, I guess, from a few weeks ago, he... You even got a suit, Kid Rock? You got a suit when you're in there in the Oval Office? I guess not. It looks like we got Ben back. Ben, welcome back to the show. I'll let you continue your intro.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Mr. President, have you had any updates on the U.S. soldiers missing in Lithuania? I have. Can you give us an update?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
your description of what went down by the way if you're if you're wondering like did he give sympathy to the families did he show any sort of heart or care at all that these soldiers died the answer is no the answer is no that just that was it and it's just so appalling to me and you know damn well if
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
any situation like this happened during the Biden administration, that they would try to make this a huge, massive controversy. They would attack President Biden for it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
And that would even be if President Biden did what he would do in this situation, which is take responsibility, send his regards to the families, handle this through proper military protocols, actually be honest with the American people, actually be briefed on this in the first place, and not have to be told and say, I don't know anything about this. And then a week later, come out with a
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
I'm talking about leveling up your kitchen game and finally tossing that scratched up sad excuse for a pan you've been clinging to since college. Because once I got my hands on Hexclad, I knew that there was no going back. You guys know I take my cooking seriously. This stuff is like if a cast iron skillet and a spaceship had a baby.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
You get the durability of stainless steel, the nonstick magic of modern cookware, and it just looks sexy. No more scraping burnt food like it's the 90s. Just perfect sears, effortless cleanup, and straight into the dishwasher. You cannot beat it. And let's not forget their Japanese Damascus steel knives. These things are works of art. 67 layers,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
the big special elections in florida the supreme court race in wisconsin i was describing how naturally elon musk went to wisconsin to buy those votes so we've got a lot to discuss brothers and midas mighty today a lot to discuss but ben jordy it's great to be here it's great to be here might as mighty great to always be here speaking to the listeners of the midas touch podcast the viewers of the midas touch podcast and today we're even trying something a little different too um we are actually also at the same time live on tick tock i'm live on tick tock
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
of razor sharp premium Japanese steel that make prep work effortless. You feel like a pro just holding one. Oh, and the best part, Hexclad comes with a lifetime warranty. That's right. Buy it once and you are set for life. So stop paying delivery fees and start cooking like a pro. For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off with our exclusive link. Just head to hexclad.com slash Midas.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
That's H-E-X-C-L-A-D.com forward slash Midas, M-E-I-D-A-S. Let them know we sent you. Bon appetit. Let's eat with Hexclad's revolutionary cookware.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Because their whole thing is just own the lips, right? They don't actually have any tangible things that they want to do to help the American people. It's all destroy. It's all just try to ruin people's lives. They have no vision for the future. And I think that's something that people need to hone in on a little more. They have zero vision for actually what they want to do.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
They just know that they want to tear it all down. and the more they piss off the libs the more they make people angry the happier they are which is why they live in this meme culture where they post disgusting memes like that and they just try to antagonize you right that's like their whole thing and this is why also like i try to say like It's okay to laugh at things.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
It's okay to lead with humor. It's okay to be able to step aside and live your life and be with your family because what these authoritarians want is they want to wear you down. They want you to feel like crap. They want you to feel hopeless.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
And when you laugh at them, when you mock them, when you actually are enjoying yourself, that's actually one of the biggest kind of weapons that could possibly be used against them. And so don't let them take your joy at all costs. Never let them take that part of
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
There's a story, Jordy, and you could Google it and you're gonna go, holy shit.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
so hello tick tock hello to the audience we're trying to reach as many people as possible try to do new things because this message needs to get out there we are going up against let's face it the oligarchs right that's what this movement is going up against right now the billionaires who just have endless funds and they are trying to manipulate all of our lives in the worst ways with their money and we are seeing that in wisconsin right now elon musk basically running back
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
The Green Bay- Green Bay sweep. And then he Green Bay sweeped himself on off to federal prison.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
I want to be clear, too, like Thank you Thank you. Thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
the same thing that he did during the 2024 election in Wisconsin in the most shameless ways, handing out million-dollar checks to people, literally paying people to even attend his event in Wisconsin. We're going to cover that. We're going to try to cover all these races, those special elections, so important. Donald Trump threatening, promising tariffs on everybody in the next 24, 48 hours. He
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
I think that's going to screw Americans Day, maybe that screw up the entire world economy day. We're going to see what happens with that. But these next 48 hours, quite frankly, are going to be very consequential as we see all the twists and turns, all the developments that are happening. These are going to affect.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
possibly the next few years, possibly the next few decades, as we see what unfolds in the courts in Florida with tariffs. It's all incredibly consequential. We're going to be covering all of it right here on the Midas Touch Podcast. Jordy, always a pleasure to see you here. What's new?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
the audience there's jordy's not wearing pants like i i guess he thought he could fool everybody he didn't realize legs on camera you may want to it's the shorter shorts that may want to that's the style these days brothers y'all don't know you're not hip i'm the youngest one i you guys i recommend before you do a leg shot yeah
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
And by the way, then, the end justifies the means, I think, to them in this as well, right? Because all they care about is raw, unadulterated power. They want to get it at all costs. They don't care about doing these schemes in order to get it. And so even with Elon's schemes surrounding the general election, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
His gamble was, if this works, I may have committed potentially some crimes here by buying votes, essentially, but I won't be prosecuted under a Trump administration. And oh, and by the way, all the other violations all my companies are committing, all the investigations that are going on into my companies, those will go away as well. So Elon made that calculation there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
I think he's making the same calculation here in Wisconsin. And I think the people need to show up. I think a message that we've seen resonating throughout the country over these past special elections that we've seen, like the ones in Pennsylvania, that nobody ever thought Democrats would win at any chance. But the candidates there, they ran on an explicitly anti-oligarch, anti-Elon Musk platform.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
i think that's been proving at least at this point to be an effective a to be a potent message out there because guess what i don't think people like having their votes bought off by billionaires i don't think they like billionaires coming on in from the outside their state to tell them what to do because it's going to help the billionaires and screw over the people and i think finally folks are waking up to this and especially in these midterm elections when you see folks who are um the people are showing up to these elections are people who vote the most
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
who also tend to lean Democratic in these races. I think you're seeing an extra urgency right now, more organizing in order to make sure that people get out the vote to tell Elon Musk, to tell Donald Trump, to tell all the oligarchs, absolutely not. We will not let you do this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
by a record margin like ben do you remember all the headlines that we would wake up to during the biden administration where it would be like u.s leads the world in gdp growth you know post covert recovery u.s leads the world in employment u.s leads the world in this leads the world that u.s beating china for the first time in 50 years these were the stories we would wake up to every day under the biden administration then fox would tell us why it was all horrible
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Now the stories we wake up to are this. We wake up to that the European markets are way ahead of us. We're waking up to that there are these alliances forming, that China is now the world leader, and they are actually being quite smart because they're going out to people who have previously been like not their friends and are going, hey, let's get together. We got to get against this guy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
They're even going to Europe and they're going, we could figure out some trade stuff between us. We don't need the United States anymore. You have the Canadians boycotting the U.S. and shout out to the Canadians. We are in full solidarity with all you and everybody who Donald Trump keeps coming after. I mean, it's a disgrace to us.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
And then he has the nerve to, in these conversations with the press, you see Donald Trump often go, we are now more respected than we've ever been. We're the most respected nation now. It's completely different. And it's actually, no, we're actually the opposite, okay? We're a freaking clown show. Everybody thinks that we are, it's just completely embarrassing. Everybody thinks we look like fools.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
And it's just, the whole thing is embarrassing, quite frankly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
One of the things that they're always going to try to do, and they're going to continue this throughout this entire administration, is they want to try to put you in this hard-to-answer question or this situation that they think is a hard thing to answer. Like with Doge, for example, their whole thing is – oh, so you don't want the government to be efficient.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Oh, so you like waste and abuse and fraud. They always try to frame it in a way to try to get your back against the wall because they want to be able to do the indefensible and have zero resistance to that. I say, fuck that. Don't let them do that because they're going to do that for everything. So I've heard so many sort of
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
You know, strategy, political strategists and stuff say, oh, this isn't the fight that you want to take.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
You don't want to rail against those because the people are going to think you're against government efficiency or you don't want to rail against what Donald Trump's doing with the Alien Enemies Act because they're going to think you support gang members in the country and unfettered immigration and that you want gang members to be in people's towns and cities and violent murderers.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
I just don't accept that framing whatsoever. I think it is imperative that we all speak out over these issues and acknowledge, yes, no, we don't want gang members here. Yes, of course, we want the government to be efficient. But we don't believe that you should be allowed to kidnap a human being because they have a tattoo that says mom on their wrist.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
and send them to an El Salvadoran prison without due process. That is not okay. This is a human rights issue. This is the kind of stuff that some of the most vile dictators have done in history. And I will not stand by silent because people think it might be politically expedient to and say nothing when we are witnessing these horrors of this administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
I think this message is getting through to people. I mean, you even saw today, you know, it reached, maybe he was just intimidated by our, uh, our podcast numbers, but even saw Joe Rogan go, oh, this is kind of screwed up.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
He like, Rogan was like, yeah, no, it's actually, this isn't cool that they're just rounding up random people that they sent this barber to El Salvador and torture prison camp because he had a tattoo. Like, that's not cool. When you hear a guy like that saying that, You're kind of like, okay, this is kind of breaking through a little bit because it's so obvious. That's the thing to me too.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
You know, Ben, I told you, like, upgrade from dial-up. Like, the people aren't using dial-up anymore. Perhaps, you know, cable or something, you know. But you can do your dial-up. It's all good. It's all good.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
These things to me are so clear. It is truth versus lies. It is morality versus immorality. And we need to stand on the side of the truth. We need to stand on the side of morals. We need to stand on the side of the law and point out how these people are breaking the law every single day, how they are violating every single principle that this nation is is supposed to be about.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
And we need to call them out for being un-American and inhumane every single day and do it unapologetically. Stop worrying about, oh, well, then they're going to try to tell you so that you're into this, that you're into that. No, I'm sorry. Lead with your values. Speak up for people and show some conviction.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Speaking of conviction, I don't want to end this episode without giving a shout out to Cory Booker right now, who is giving a delivering an old-fashioned filibuster right now on the Senate floor. He said he's going to speak until he physically cannot anymore to protest the Trump and Musk regime.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
So we haven't been able to tune into him because we've been doing this show live, but just wanted to give him a shout out for doing something and speaking truth to power on the Senate floor. It's so important right now. Do not back down.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Yeah, you know, and I think the messaging is becoming pretty clear around the country right now. It's, do you really want to live in a country where billionaires are allowed to just buy elections in this fashion? I would put this back even before Elon Musk, I would go back to the ruling of Citizens United. which allowed these unlimited campaign contributions.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
I think every politician out there should be very outspoken against the Citizens United ruling because it has led to the rot that we see in our country today, the rot that brought Donald Trump to power, the rot that brought Elon Musk into the Oval Office that allowed him to buy his way into the Oval Office and then use his power to destroy the lives of Americans.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
I think one of the things that is like the most
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
not baffling because it's just like it goes with everything that trump would always do and musk always does is that despite ruining all these people's lives despite all the chaos that they have caused despite throwing our entire country into chaos what have we seen that federal spending is actually more now than it ever was far more than it was under biden increasing at greater rates than it was under biden
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
So while you see them trying to brag about all these various cuts, first off, I want everybody to know that all these cuts are basically bullshit. When you look at the Doge website and they have all these big numbers, we saved $250 billion here and there. When you actually put them under a tiny bit of a microscope, they're actually all fake. It's a fraud. It's a scheme. It's a scam. It's a fraud.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
That's what they're doing right now. And then they try to dangle out things to the American people to try to get them to support it. Have you heard? We might allow, we might send out Doge checks. Don't you want a Doge check? Yeah, with all the money we're saving from Doge, from taking away your grandmother's social security, you might get a few thousand bucks in the mail.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
Major Supreme Court race in Wisconsin, major special elections in Florida. You know, sometimes Ben's internet cuts out here on the Midas Touch Network. It happens. but it happens when you're live. It happens, but that's okay. The point is we have a whole lot to speak about on this episode of the Midas Touch Podcast. It is great to see everybody here today. Kid Rock in the Oval Office.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
So you stick a, and we even saw people at this Elon Musk event that happened yesterday. We saw people, there was literally somebody who asked a question to Elon Musk. So when are we getting those Doge checks? And he was like, actually, the Doge checks, they got to go to Congress and they got,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
You know, there's a process and I don't know, you know, you're going to have to ask Congress about that one because they dangle these things out to scam people. And it's just so incredibly atrocious. It's so manipulative.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/1/25
And we've been saying this on like all of our past episodes, but stop falling for the con people, you know, like as a supporter, if you're a supporter of Elon Musk or Donald Trump, at a certain point, you got to go, these people are lying to me. These people think I'm stupid.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
How to Fight Back with Messaging Guru Anat Shenker-Osorio
This is Brett Mycelis from Midas Touch, and welcome to this week's edition of the Midas Meetup series. This is a live interview series we've been doing every Thursday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific time, live on our substack. You could watch this live every single Thursday at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
How to Fight Back with Messaging Guru Anat Shenker-Osorio
This is an interview series, and we've been bringing on some of the most brilliant thinkers in the space. So today we are especially excited to welcome Anat Shankarasario to the show. She is a political messaging guru extraordinaire and strategist. Anat, welcome to the show.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Has Massive Panic on Saturday Worrying Cabinet
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Has Massive Panic on Saturday Worrying Cabinet
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Has Massive Panic on Saturday Worrying Cabinet
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Has Massive Panic on Saturday Worrying Cabinet
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Has Massive Panic on Saturday Worrying Cabinet
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Has Massive Panic on Saturday Worrying Cabinet
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Has Massive Panic on Saturday Worrying Cabinet
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
Fox News in Complete Panic as Trump Can't Be Saved
So I guess, although businesses on wall street and you know them well, um, They're skeptical. Consumer confidence, they look at, went down seven points in February. They see jittery feelings in the U.S. economy, and they wonder whether this is going to boomerang back on U.S. consumers. I guess the feeling, do you hear that from businesses when they talk about tariffs?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
They need to live in this 1984 world where truth is in truth. And so they cannot let the truth go out to Donald Trump. They cannot let them know of a U.S. military failure. They cannot let them know any bad news that hurts Donald Trump, and that would be sad.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
So now there's more news that this is causing more tension in the relationship between Donald Trump and Mike Walsh because Donald Trump did not know about this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
So on top of the war leaks where Mike Walz had a reporter in the chat where it appears that Mike Walz may be one of the biggest leakers of the Trump White House, on top of that, Donald Trump also discovers that there is this news story out there that he has not heard about until now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
And even now, after hearing about it, no statement, no comment about the families, no comment about the soldiers, no comment about what they were doing, if they were doing training, if they're on a mission, what the heck is going on?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
Nobody knows because right now we have a commander in chief who is just a liar, who does not want to acknowledge anything bad and just wants to wreak havoc on the American public and torture the American public.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
whether he he doesn't care to or his people are too scared to give him the information and beyond policy jordy you know this is the thing that's always bothered me the most about maga that in order to support donald trump you need to be willing to put all facts and reality aside and to just accept whatever donald trump says you have to be all in on the cult
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
and i don't know how if you view yourself ironically these people go i'm an independent thinker i think for myself i don't listen to the mainstream media i don't listen to them i just i'm an independent figure you're all saying the same all the time so i think you're actually just parroting whatever donald trump says but okay but in order to support this movement you have to just accept
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
And it's almost like I feel embarrassed for you. I have secondhand embarrassment that you are trying to pretend like the war plans that we are seeing, that were very detailed when you read them, Ben, that those war plans are not war plans. That's going to be your line, really. That's what you're going to tell me.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
you're going to just tell me all these blatant lies by the way you're the one who are falling for you are the mark you're being lied to like you should be embarrassed that they think you are so stupid honestly like it's you should be offended you should watch watch fox news and we'll play you know probably in a little bit jesse waters on fox talking about this stuff you should be embarrassed that this guy thinks so low of you that he thinks you are such an idiot that he thinks that he could get away with lying to your face
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
I think it was pretty spot on. I'll say this one thing. In a world where there are so many stories, there's so much news, right, that we try to break down every single week, right? A lot comes and goes, right? There are a lot of crazy stories that come and two days pass and all of a sudden you're like, that feels like weeks ago.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
Then there are certain stories that I think I would refer to as like sticky stories, the stories that don't go away, the stories that really do some damage. Those are the stories that exist in all administrations, right? The Biden debate, that was a Biden sticky story. That was something that did not go away.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
Right now, we have one of the first, if not the first, sticky stories of the Trump administration. And it is this controversy, not only of the war plan leaks, but of the cover-up, which is still ongoing and is just so obvious and so atrocious that a lot of people, even people who are inclined to support Trump and MAGA, are going, don't bullshit a bullshitter, man. This is not normal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
This is weird behavior. So let's just keep an eye on this and everything that's going on. It's an interesting situation.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
That's 15% off for new customers at theperfectgene.nyc with promo code MIDAS15. M-E-I-D-A-S-1-5. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. F your khakis and get The Perfect Gene. Okay, you ever sign up for a free trial, forget about it, and then realize you've been charged for months?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
Yeah, me too, and I just found out that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription that they're not even using. That's why Rocket Money has been a game changer for me, and I know it will be for you as well. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
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a lot to unpack and we're gonna unpack it all brett here with the midas touch podcast great to be here with the brothers great to be here with everybody listening everybody watching thank you for subscribing on audio on spotify on apple on all the things rating it five stars we appreciate it fear and loathing in mar-a-lago fear and loathing
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
in the trump white house that is the theme of the day and that's what we are seeing and we noted on the last episode this seismic shift that we were seeing on the ground we've of course that we have seen the town halls over these past few weeks but there was certainly an energy shift a seismic event that occurred over the past weekend when we saw these bernie sanders rallies
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These AOC rallies, there has been a major... Donald Trump's administration has been put on the defense as a result of these war plan leaks, where now the cover-up is getting worse than the crime, as it often does. The Trump administration... is trying to pull a full 1984 on US citizens. Remember that quote from 1984, the party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears.
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It was their final, most essential command. Well, that is exactly what they are trying to do right now here with these war plan texts saying, oh, they weren't warp leaks. They weren't plans. We didn't have any times in it. It's like, bro, we actually see, we have the texts, okay? We see what happened. So at least take responsibility. Say you're going to fix the problem and move on.
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Those are fresh. Jordy's pulling out the cowboy boots for the audio listeners.
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But don't lie to my face and think and act like I am stupid. Your followers may want to believe that. Your followers may want to shovel in your lies and eat that all up as Fox shovels in their bullshit in people's faces. But not us. Uh-uh. Not here at the Midas Touch Network. A lot to unpack, folks. Oh, my gosh. Let's get into it first. We've got to check in with Jordy. Jordy, what's up?
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yeah and do the democrats have a lot of work to do yes but are the reports of the democrats demise a little early yes as well and i think here's the biggest way to gauge the true feelings of the trump regime and the true feelings of the right-wing media ecosystem so
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they could say all they want right they could spout all the bs they want but look to their actions look what they are doing and and it will tell a big story when you see the pulling of elise stefanik in her district where where they're the fact that they're worried about her seat in a special election which is what what was it been plus 20 something or or to that effect 21.
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plus 21 Trump district. When you see them pulling back on her nomination and admitting it is because of that. When you see them sputtering and being unable to explain the war leaks and telling people that what you're seeing is not actually what you're seeing and you see Fox going, oh, you shouldn't really care about, no one really cares about this, right?
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I mean, Donald Trump, he'll get another touchdown soon and we'll all just forget about it. When you see the actions that they are all taking,
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It tells a very clear story to me, and that's that they are much weaker than they are leading on, that they are much weaker than the corporate media is leading on about them, and that just means we need to all double down our efforts and continue to make our voices heard. Because once they get trapped in these scenarios, it's like quicksand, right?
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They try to – and I think we're going to see this a lot with this administration actually, right? They're going to try to dig themselves out, but the faster they go, the more they lie, the more they try to twist and confuse and try to throw all this crap out there that is so obvious, not maybe to the cultist cultist, but to a majority of the American people themselves.
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the more they are going to sink into that quicksand. And we are already seeing it. And that is just going to accelerate as they continue with this failing strategy. Love to see the world stepping up. Elbows up, Canada. Shout out to all of our Canadian listeners. Shout out to all the people over in Greenland. Hope we got some Greenland listeners as well. I love... What? Yeah, I love seeing...
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I love seeing everybody standing up for democracy, standing up for their sovereignty, and standing up against this Trump regime. It's a great sight.
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And think about what's coming up, Jordy, too. Big major protests on April 5th. Get ready for that. We'll be covering all the protests here at the Midas Touch Network. Get ready for these special elections in Florida. And I got to tell you, you know, because these are hard races. I'm not going to lie. These are hard races.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
And many were saying even if Josh Wheel came within points, even if he came within five points. in that race against Randy Fine in Florida, that that would be a major warning sign for the Republican Party and for Donald Trump. And the latest poll we are seeing from Donald Trump's own pollster, the own pollster, is that Josh Wheel now is actually leading in that race. So we will see what happens.
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It was great having him on the show. We're going to continue to highlight pro-democracy candidates like him on the show, like Judge Crawford on the show, making sure we use our platform
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This is why it's so important that all of us collectively as a community here, all of the listeners, all the viewers, us here doing the shows, everybody at the Midas Touch Network, it's why it's so important that we are never afraid to call out the lies. Always call out the lies because the lies are, it's more than just a white lie about something. It's much bigger than that.
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It's much more pernicious than that. when you see them using these lies as predicate to whisk people out of this country to abduct them to send them out of this country to el salvadoran prison camps based on nothing by just saying you're a gang member you're a gang member no i'm not i don't care i said you're a gang member So you're going to this prison camp.
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You see these sick, dehumanizing videos with Christine O'Mall. She has her, what appears to be a $60,000 Rolex standing in front of people who are in these cages, who, by the way, they throw on the ground, they shave their heads, they take off their shirts, they treat like animals. And I'm sure there are a lot of bad people in that group. I'm sure there are a lot of gang members in that group.
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I'm sure there are. But you know who else is in that group? A whole lot of innocent people because no one in that group was entitled to the due process that we are supposed to have. And if you are, if you consider yourself an American, I don't care if you're a Republican. I don't care if you're a Democrat. I don't care if you're independent. I don't care if you're not political.
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This is not the way that America is supposed to work. Executives in this country are not supposed to have this sort of unilateral power for good reason because this is the kind of stuff that happened in Nazi Germany. This is the kind of stuff that happens in Russia. They always find a predicate. They always find a lie in order to –
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carry out their agenda no matter how heinous and dehumanizing it is. I mean, we see even when you look at the Mahmoud Khalil situation, Colombia, when you see the Turkish student, the video of that student, the tough student, university student who was whisked off the street in one of the most horrifying videos that I have seen simply because this person who was here on a legal visa
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attended a pro-Palestine protest, so they took her off the street. You see this video, it looks like the Gestapo pulling somebody off the street, throwing them in a car. I mean, this is like the sickest stuff that we are seeing. And the Trump administration has decided that they could make up any lie, say whatever they want. They could just be like, yeah, you were anti-American.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
Yeah, you hate this country. Yeah, you... do whatever they want to say. You're a gang member. They just make up whatever they want. And then they use that as enough reason to just chuck somebody in a van, arrest them, send them to a prison camp overseas. No, it's not okay. I will never accept it as okay. I will never both sides this either and say, oh, well, they got this point over here.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
And then this people are saying this thing. So the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of those two things. No, this is wrong. We're going to continue to call it out. Say it's wrong. Shout out to all the journalists. Shout out to Mother Jones.
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Shout out to all the people who are uplifting these various stories and uncovering what is happening in these prisons and the true identities of these people who have been abducted by the United States government.
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we're going to continue to report on it all here but i think everybody here should also be proud of the momentum shift of the fact that this information is getting out there despite what this regime is doing so shout out to you all um this has been a fun show we covered a whole lot of stuff um remember to add the midas touch podcast on apple podcast and spotify leave us a five star review if you can i gotta say i told the story earlier on social media but the
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the rogan folks and the mega folks they got really upset by all the uh the press that the midas such podcast got they tried to review bomb us with all these one-star reviews but this community went in and gave a bunch of five-star reviews and our review actually our rating actually increased on all the podcast apps after they tried this coordinated attack and that's thanks to you so let's keep the energy going apple podcast spotify thanks to everyone listening thanks for sharing this with a friend
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Just thanks for all your support. It really means a lot that these messages are getting out there in the world and that this momentum continues to build. Jordy.
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They're like, he's the most untrustworthy guy on the planet. He's the scum of the earth. No one should ever talk to him ever. And we added him into our group chat while we were planning war plans. It's like,
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This was supposed to be just principles, Jordy. So this was supposed to be the top brass discussing this. And these are not things top brass are supposed to be discussing over signal chat.
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Sometimes people just get sucked in. They just get sucked on in, right? And then you had Trump in the Oval Office being like, yeah, we need to investigate these platforms. We need to investigate Signal to see how this could have happened. No, actually, no, you don't need to investigate anything. The evidence of the crime is right here. Sorry.
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about the fact that y'all added this guy to your war plans chat and he's the editor-in-chief from the atlantic who you most likely have been a source for which is why he's in your number to be 150 and by the way i think this is the real reason why mike waltz is actually scared about this story and why he feels like should i resign maybe i should he's decided not to for now at least um but
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
i think it's very clear especially we'll get into this venmo story but basically mike wallace's venmo was public as well all these people just have public passwords their venmo passwords were all over the internet and mike wallace's venmo account had all of his friends which experts say like this could ease this is information that is easily exploited by foreign governments like russia they had all of it laid out all of his contacts
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And many of his contacts, dozens if not hundreds, were journalists in his phone, journalists who Donald Trump trashes and calls fake news all the time. And there was a quote in the Jeffrey Goldberg Atlantic story that I found very revealing, where he said when he received a message from Mike Waltz, it didn't seem like it was anything out of the ordinary.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
I'm paraphrasing, but he said something along those lines. To me, that says, yes, Mike Waltz is a source and he is leaking like a sieve. Mikey the mole baby in the White House. And Donald Trump does not like people who leak to the press. He's the only person who's allowed to leak to the press, whether it's, you know, whoever the reporter is.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
But the fact that Waltz clearly seems like a leaker in the White House, I think that's going to make Donald Trump very uneasy. It's going to make this relationship very tense, whether Waltz stays or not.
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and not acknowledging the death of american soldiers horrific it's atrocious this is one of those things too where uh you know if something like this were to happen under a president biden this would have been non-stop maga twitter fox news they would have made this into like benghazi x a thousand right this would have been their biggest story they would have never stopped talking about it and by the way president biden in this hypothetical scenario would have had a very thoughtful response he would have acknowledged
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/28/25
the missing soldiers who are presumed to be dead at this point uh he would have known about it he would have been briefed on it but this is one of the problems when you have a narcissist in chief as well and pathetic people around him were just sycophants because none of them actually want to break the news to him none of them even want to tell him bad news because like i started off with the 1984 quote on this episode
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
right it's also bizarre that they're making all these government edicts on twitter like how are people even supposed to get these messages like he just assumes that everybody is on twitter all the time and following his messages works in the federal government that's just kind of a weird thing uh to begin with and that's what happens when you go through and just try to like destroy everything i've seen the way these tech people view the world is through the lens of how they view the tech world and there's that phrase you know you know you got to break stuff or whatever the phrase is right
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
That doesn't work with the federal government. When you turn off things on Twitter, there are glitches that happen. Your DMs don't work. Your retweets may stop working. When you turn off things with the government, people lose their health care. People die. Parks aren't protected. Parks go on fire. Airplanes start crashing. Food gets poisoned.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
That's what happens when you break things in the government. And that's why you can't use that strategy in the federal government, even if it is, maybe it does work in the tech world. Maybe it is a disruptor thing. Doesn't work in the federal government. And I think they're finding that out every day. And just like how cavalier they are about it is what drives me absolutely crazy.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
They try to act that they're being transparent when they're anything but it. They're putting all these fake numbers on the Doge website, which every time reporters are looking at it, they'll say, we saved $66 billion. And the reporters will be like, no, it's actually $6 billion. and even that doesn't look quite right. And then they just act like, oh, oops, we turned off the Ebola.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
What are we going to do? We turned it back on. Everything's okay. Then we find out that that is a lie also, that things were actually severely damaged as a result of Elon Musk getting rid of the Ebola funding. And it's just one thing after the next, after the next. One scam on top of one scam on top of one scam, just like we would expect from Donald Trump.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
The latest scam then, of course, is the one that You were referencing earlier with the gold cards, they're calling it. And they're going to use this, and all the Republicans are going to use this, including MAGA Mike Johnson, to say that, oh, you might see all these numbers. I want you to be prepared for it because they're already starting it.
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You're going to see all these numbers about major deficit spending. You're going to see all these numbers about the debt skyrocketing to levels that we've never seen before in American history. But once those gold cards kick in, oh, it's going to be a gravy train in this country where you're all going to be getting money. Everyone's going to be, it's going to be a boon to this country.
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It's a scam. This is like literal snake oil that they are selling you and they expect people to believe it. I just hope people are starting to see through this con. Because it's such an in-your-face con. I mean, this puts multi-level marketing schemes to shame. This puts like Bernie Madoff to shame. This is a con on such a massive level right now. And I just hope that people don't fall for it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And that's why even reporting this stuff, I think you need to report it with clarity like that and not accept these as real premises. Not to run your headline as like, Mike Johnson suggests that the gold cards are going to pay for the deficits. Don't even like allow them to put that lie in the headline like they want. because it is totally bogus.
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Cozy comfort food like big batch beef stroganoff to lighter dishes like salmon and creamy mustard dill sauce tray bake. There's literally something for every single mood. And my absolute favorite recently, their beef noodle soup with bok choy. I made it last night. I had that moment where I just stared at my plate like, damn, I'm good.
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It looked incredible, smelled amazing, and more importantly, tasted like something out of a restaurant. And the best part, Marley Spoon just launched their new 15-minute express recipes. Yep, dinner in 15 minutes. So even on nights when I'm feeling extra lazy, I have zero excuses. This new year, fast track your way to eating well with Marley Spoon.
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Yeah, you know, this Epstein thing is honestly, you know, it's obviously a dark subject matter. But the fact that they are in this situation right now, there's definitely a lot of humor to it. They are the dog that caught the car, and now they do not know what to do about it.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
Because they've been hyping this up as like, this is going to be like their Super Bowl, their Christmas, however you want to describe it. The release of the Epstein files. And by the way, Donald Trump was in power before. Nothing happened with the files then. Nothing's going to happen with the files now, anything substantial. And they've hyped up that there is this existence of these files.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And in their mind, there exists a list. And the list says something like, pedophiles in Hollywood, and then you read down the list and it's all your favorite Hollywood celebrities, and it's gonna be the big, we got the Democrats, we got Hollywood, they're all on this one list, look at it.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
The odd thing about this to me from the very beginning is the obvious thing, which is why would you make this your main cause when the guy you worship was quite literally Jeffrey Epstein's best friend? You don't have to believe me when I say that. Jeffrey Epstein said that Donald Trump viewed him as his best friend. They hung out all the time in Mar-a-Lago.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
I know they like to say, they make up this whole story that actually Donald Trump was- Trump banned him when he found out. Actually, Donald Trump just kept him close so that he could report. I meant, give me a fricking break with that bullshit, okay?
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
But they've invented this whole story where somehow Donald Trump has cleaned his hands of this, even though there's nobody who was ever closer to Jeffrey Epstein than Donald Trump per all the reporting out there. And it goes beyond just even Donald Trump's name on these various lists and things like that.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
Like you could go into Ben's deep dives, but all the modeling agencies, all the things that took place at Mar-a-Lago, there's a whole lot of actual evidence to behavior that may be worse than just a name on a list. But the lists that do exist are the lists that have been public for the past few years, if not over the past decade. There's his little black book, the Epstein little black book.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And guess who's on Epstein's little black book? Donald Trump. And like 50 phone numbers. I'm exaggerating there, but it actually is like 11 phone numbers. Do I have the little black book here? I'll find it. Yeah, here it is right here. The little black book. I mean, that's a lot of contact information for one person to have of another human being.
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If you're looking at this, there's a few two-on-two numbers, three Florida numbers, another New York number, like another five New York numbers, another three. There's a lot of numbers on this, is my point. Melania's number, her name spelled wrong, Trump's security. People like who... Emergency. He's got the emergency contact. He's got Trump's emergency contact.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
I get a lot of people's phone numbers. I don't have their emergency contact and their security. This is a close relationship. And by the way, I'm going to say right up front, just because a name is on this phone log doesn't mean that any bad behavior was done. For that, we'll go into Ben's deep dives on the Epstein stuff and you'll see the more tangible stuff. But you want a list.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
Here is a literal list. It exists right here, right? The other literal list that exists, and this is the one that apparently Pam Bondi is planning on releasing that these MAGA influencers have been holding up in this binder. It was the phone records that I just showed you that Donald Trump's name on. By the way, when we actually see these, let's see if they keep Donald Trump's name on it or not.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
But there's also the flight logs. We need to see the flight logs. We need to see the flight logs. The flight logs were released in 2019. They were released as part of the Ghislaine Maxwell trial, the federal trial, signed affidavit. These are the official logs. We have them right here. Donald Trump is listed in these logs by name. He brought his kids on sometimes.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
He was often on it with Epstein himself. You could see the name J.E. on these various logs. But Donald Trump was on the flight logs seven times. Sorry, they were released in 2021 and not 2019. And his name's all over it. But yet you show this to the MAGA people and they're like, what? That doesn't mean anything. What list are you looking for? The list you're looking for doesn't exist.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
These are the lists that actually exist. And then you have these White House influencers now going to the White House. And so you have people and it's disgusting to see some of these people at the White House. Holding up binders, holding up literal binders. Small binders. Small binders like this guy. Who is this? Is this Cernovich? I don't know.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
I'm upset that I know any of these people, but they're people like Libs of TikTok and Cernovich and I don't know. DC Drano. DC Drano. Here's the DC Drano photo. And they're holding these things up. There's Libs of TikTok in this photo. And they're smiling and they're celebrating. And these binders say phase one, the Epstein files, the most transparent administration in history.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
It has a fake declassified marking. It's not a real declassified. It says it like they just printed it on the thing. And they gave it to these 15 influencers. Apparently this is phase one of the release, which is all this information that I just showed you. Like it's already, already public apparently. And they're like smiling and celebrating.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And it's just weird because like I said, in the beginning of this, this is disturbing stuff. Like this is evidence of somebody who like raped children. I was trying to see if I could make it a little softer for this episode, but I wanna be clear about what it is and not use a language. And they're smiling with these binders as if, look what I got, look at this great thing.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
It's completely bizarre, not to mention the fact that the people who have accused the media of being regime propagandists under Biden, this is literally the definition of regime propagandists. I mean, how do you ever recover from this? You holding your binders to try to cover for Donald Trump and his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, because that's all this is about right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And now you have these rifts forming because you have these MAGA people who are willing to do whatever Donald Trump wants, right? Then you have other MAGA people who view themselves as like pure blood MAGA, you know, like I am the real MAGA and I actually stand for my beliefs. And you know what?
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
To their credit, some of these people I actually do think stand by their beliefs as horrific as they are, like a Laura Loomer, for example. Horrible person. She's pretty consistent though in being a horrible person. She wouldn't probably partake in a situation like this. So then you have a Laura Loomer getting angry now at these MAGA influencers, getting angry at the Trump administration.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
You have Pam Bondi saying that she was going to release all the Epstein files, but the FBI is not going to allow her to release all the Epstein files. You have the FBI going like, what are you talking about? They're all trying to blame each other. And now it's just MAGA is in chaos over this thing because the dog finally caught the car.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And now they don't know what to do because they've hyped this moment up for so long as the moment that was going to take down the deep state and the Democrats and liberal Hollywood. And guess what? The only person's name who keeps coming up on these lists is Donald J. Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
By the way, I totally buy that it was Epstein that cut off the friendship, not the other way around. I completely buy it. Before you go on to Tate, I want to say one more thing also, which is this. I see all these MAGA people online saying, why don't the Democrats, why don't anybody who's not MAGA, why don't people say, release the Epstein list?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
It's because they're scared that they're on it or their friends are on it or their politicians are on it, celebrities. We've been saying it all the freaking time. Release the list. We don't give a shit. Release the list. Release it. Release it. We've seen the list that exists. You're guys on it, and we don't care who is on the list. We'll acknowledge it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
I don't know why you can't acknowledge the reality that Donald Trump is the one who constantly shows up and had this very deep, close, and personal relationship with the guy, Benjamin.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
It is incredibly dystopian. Good to be here with you, brothers. Good to be here, everybody watching and listening to the Midas Touch podcast. You know, a few things. First off, Trump looks tired. Like, for those listening, the bags under Donald Trump's eyes are growing. He looks exhausted.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
he looks out of it and frankly like you're right it's like you have two options trumpers in that situation when you hear comments like that like zielinski did i say he was a dictator i don't know it's he's either senile or he's a liar or both so i'll let you guys decide uh how you want your dear leader to be described but he's one of those things elon when i hear elon you know he's just bizarre that he's taking over these cabinet meetings and whatnot
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
who go to work every single day uh live a middle-class lifestyle often are able to do things in the private sector but choose to give service to their country by the way yes they do pay taxes and they do pay taxes back to the government from their salaries and the government is not a business it's not a profit-making function despite what you and the other republicans want it to be things need to run services need to be provided to people and when did it become okay
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
for politicians to speak down to working Americans like that. It is so, I guess with Trump, but it's so incredibly appalling to me. And it really, really disgusts me on a gut level. And this, you're telling me this is the party that is claiming the mantle of populism. This is the party that's claiming the mantle of where for the working people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And you're saying that to people who are hard workers who go in every single day to difficult jobs and you tell them their jobs don't mean crap.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
But there's this guy who went viral this week who's been doing an Elon Musk impression. And I cannot listen to Elon Musk now without thinking of, have you seen this guy on TikTok? It is, it's so, maybe I'll pull up the clip if I can in a second. But yeah, no, it's completely bonkers what we are seeing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
But honestly, when I look at Trump in all these situations, I just see like, I see such weakness, like weakness. I feel like he's tired, like his heart is not in it. And it feels like one of the reasons why he's just kind of delegating everything, letting Elon Musk basically do his job for him. It's just like his heart isn't in this thing. It's just a whole bizarre dynamic.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
I'm sure Lives of TikTok is all over that one.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And I just want to add as well that it's something I'm going to reiterate on the show quite a bit. That is, you could say all the things in the world, right? You could try to create your own reality, but reality will always catch up. Caught up to Donald Trump in his last administration with COVID when he tried to create his own reality around that. Didn't work.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
We already are seeing that happen to the Trump administration right now across the board. And the economy is no different. Let me break down the economy. But first, you know, I got to do this as part of everybody's favorite segment on the Midas Touch podcast. This is the NetSuite by Oracle. Know your numbers minutes. Welcome to the NetSuite Bioracle Know Your Numbers Minute, people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
But anyway, we've got a lot to discuss. I'll turn it over to Jordy. Jordy, what's new?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
Let me break down the latest data that we are receiving today. So we got the new unemployment claims from last week rising much higher than anticipated. I know a lot of you are probably like, I anticipated it to be pretty high because Trump is firing quite literally everybody, but this is higher. They do it based on The Economist's predictions, and this is even higher than that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
So there were an estimated 242,000 claims filed, jobless claims filed last week, which is 22,000 more than the previous week. So we are seeing a pretty steep increase across the weeks right now. And all this unemployment that Trump is causing in DC and Virginia and across the country, That's going to lag a little bit also.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And when this catches up, I think the unemployment numbers are going to start looking really bad once we start seeing these monthly jobs reports in April, May, and things like that. By the way, first off, the expectation was 220,000. We had 242,000 jobless claims. Just want to be clear about that. And you could use NetSuite to stay on top of all the economic indicators.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
NetSuite provides easy access to economic data and trends through their integrated analytics so that you're always up to date. And this news comes as Donald Trump continues to purge these federal employees, implement these tariffs, threaten these major American industries. As you can see, everything is kind of in upheaval now. And there's a whole lot of instability.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And speaking of tariffs, tariffs were back in the news today. Trump announced earlier that those previously postponed tariffs on imports from Mexico and Canada will now take effect on March 4th, 2025. We'll see if those tariffs end up happening again or not. Like the last time, the tariffs are set to be 25% on imports from Canada and Mexico with an additional 10% tariff on China.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
I should mention, now that we're talking about international, if you have a business that does work globally globally, NetSuite is tailored to meet your various trade regulations, standards, all that sort of stuff to make sure you're always compliant and on top of everything. And Trump continues to blame the flow of fentanyl for the tariffs, even in places like Canada. It doesn't make any sense.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
I think there's more fentanyl that flows from the US to Canada than from the Canada here. There's virtually no fentanyl that goes from Canada to the US. So just a fake excuse. Like I said, they use these kind of con games constantly. in order to try to push forward these policies. Trump also says these reciprocal tariffs are going to take effect on April 2nd.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
That could affect products from the entire world. And the things that Trump is claiming need reciprocal tariffs are things like value-added taxes, VATs, which are not that at all and don't actually affect... exports to other countries. Once again, like a lot of made up things. As previously mentioned, these tariffs could upend American industries. We just heard this week from the CEO of Alcoa.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
That's the nation's leading US aluminum producer. And he said that Trump's tariffs on aluminum could destroy 100,000 American jobs while not even providing an incentive to change aluminum production in the United States. So you're getting all the bad stuff without any of the good stuff that he's going to say. He even said at his conference, once again, CEO of Alcoa,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
So I'm not saying this is a liberal organization. Alcoa, the leading US aluminum producer, he said, quote, at a recent conference, it's bad for the US. So we're going to stay on top of all the economic updates here at the Midas Touch Network, week by week, month by month, day by day, making sure that you're getting all the data and everything that is going on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
And so I'll be back soon with another segment. We'll stay on top of it. That was the NetSuite Bioracle Know Your Numbers Minute. Do you know your own numbers for your business? Download NetSuite's Ultimate KPI Checklist right now at netsuite.com slash Midas.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
Tennessee Brando just hit 600,000 subscribers on YouTube. So congratulations to Tennessee Brando.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
what's going on with the measles and then he's like uh and then rfk jr's like oh well it happened hold on i know yeah you don't have to do the impression no no do the impression all right ben ben for the audience uh everybody is asking in the comments to hear your rfk impression so if you're really not doing the rfk and if you really if you really want to do the impression we'll let you do it right here before ben does the rfk impression maybe gets cancelled or not
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
You can take away my Medicaid. More pee-pee. This episode is starting on a crazy foot. So, Ben, as we await your RFK Jr. impression, can I play this guy's Elon Musk impression?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
After this, we'll go to your... Let me show you this guy and then we'll get into the RFA clip because it's so good. This is not Elon Musk. I think this guy's name is Alex Byron. If I'm saying that right, Alex Byron, he's a comedian. It's a pitch perfect impression of Elon.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/28/25
Just to follow up on that, if British troops are in Ukraine keeping the peace and get attacked by Russia, will you come to their aid?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
It just really upsets me that the Republicans fell for this so much that Donald Trump was able to elevate to these positions of power because these cowards in the GOP We're scared, oh, and Donald's gonna say something bad about me. You know who doesn't give a crap though, Ben?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
yeah and um who would want to come here at this point to the united states when you have those sorts of risks like it's not an ordinary time and those risks are very legitimate and we've already seen canadians be detained by ice for extended periods of time we've seen american citizens be detained by ice for an extended period of time accused of being undocumented people and it's just uh you know
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
I think we summed it up best like right away, we call that this would be the rug pull presidency. And that's everything that we have witnessed since that first day that Donald Trump was inaugurated here. Right now, I sort of view it as we are in the sort of eye of the storm. It's sort of that, even though it doesn't feel calm right now,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
the ramifications to all of donald trump's decisions on the economy right now we are in a relatively calm place compared to where it is going to be in the next quarter and the quarter after that he's planted these seeds right now that once they grow it's going to be so destructive to the united states economy that it may even make the covert economy look like the good old days
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
China, Russia, anybody else in the world who is currently laughing at Donald Trump, laughing at the United States, mocking his quote unquote negotiating tactics as the world finds other partners and moves on without the United States. It is really a sad state of affairs. I'm excited to break it all down right here on the show. I know we got a lot to discuss, so I'll toss it right back to you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
And that, I think, is why those CEOs, they had Target, Home Depot, they had the CEOs go to the White House, essentially, they called it a meeting. I call it an intervention. I think they went in there, they held an intervention with Donald Trump, and they said, dude, our shelves are going to be empty within weeks. if you do not change what you are doing. Our store shelves are going to be empty.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
The prices are going to be skyrocketing. And I've heard just in my own life, speaking to small business owners, just going around and shopping and looking for things at the stores, they are all terrified of these tariffs. They're warning that all their prices are about to go up, that they're going to be shortages.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
small business owners are terrified that their businesses are about to go under as all of this sort of catches up to them the looking at the trucks and the cargo deliveries and all that stuff plummet in q3 q4 all those deliveries just being wiped off the data, like totally making like, like I said before, making COVID era look like the good old days.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
That is a very ominous sign right now for the United States economy. And currently, you're also seeing this kind of interesting phenomenon, I think of a lot of panic buying as well, because people are terrified, rightfully so that they're not going to be able to get the items that they want and need in the future. So they are trying to stock up now, almost preparing for a doomsday scenario.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
That is not how it's supposed to be, especially in the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the world that was in a position of relative stability, that was leading the world in GDP growth, that was leading the world by all metrics. Now people are preparing for a doomsday scenario, stocking up on supplies like the world is going to end.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
It's a very sad state of affairs, and it's all caused by Donald Trump and his sycophants around him who are just yes men saying yes to everything he says, no matter how damaging the effects are on the U.S. economy, on people's health, on people's lives.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
And, you know, remember, Donald Trump said that within 24 hours, and at first he said within 24 hours of being elected, that this war would be over. Then he moved the goalposts to within 24 hours of entering office, this would be over. Now we're seeing, obviously, like with everything, he has no plan, nor does he have even a concept of a plan.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
unless you consider tweeting or truth social posting a concept of a plan, because that's all he seems to be able to do. And if you notice the language he uses towards Zelensky, it is always combative. It's always, you know, just grotesque, the things that he says to Zelensky. And he cannot muster anything negative to say about Putin at all.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
The closest he could come is just saying, Vladimir, stop it. Stop, Vlad. Please stop. It's like embarrassing. It's like begging. It's groveling. And these are legitimate posts that Trump is sending out in all of this barrage of posting that he's doing on his social media app. He literally said, Vladimir, stop. Stop it. I'm not making that up. That is actually the post that Trump made.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
And you notice a theme here, right? He says, we're going to end the war. Doesn't happen. What's the plan here? I can't tell you what the plan is. What's the plan with China? Oh, we're talking to them. Who are you talking to? Oh, we're talking to them. Could he be more specific?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
No, we can't be more specific because he just bullshits from one topic to the next topic to the next topic, hopes that he could just finish that news cycle, get on to the next, and then move on to the next crisis. This is how he runs his presidency. It's just a Russian nesting doll of crises, pun intended.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
Yeah. And, you know, we call it propaganda a lot on the show, which is an apt name for the way Donald Trump lied to the American people throughout the campaign and continues to do so now. But Ben, as you aptly put it, I think a more appropriate word for what Donald Trump has done is commit fraud upon the American people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
And with a goal of making Americans suffer, with making Americans so just confused and overwhelmed and afraid by everything that is going on, that they can't focus on what government is actually supposed to do because of all the chaos.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
But I think that's why it's important that our community here continues to highlight the truth, flood the zone with truth, while they flood the zone with crap every single day. continue to break through and show actually what the government is supposed to do.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
I'm upset that it took such a pain to be inflicted on the American people for people to, in rapid amount of time, to be able to now realize, oh shit, I don't like this guy. This guy's horrible. Trump's approval ratings right now are at record lows of like any president ever. He's underwater now on
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
Every issue, even the immigration issue, which was his quote unquote strong issue, like the tide has turned so quickly. You see those indicators in Canada that it is very much in many ways a referendum on Donald Trump. I wish it didn't take this for people to wake up here and around the world to see what is going on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
But that is the power of the propaganda movement, the fraudulent movement of Donald Trump. And that is exactly at the heart of what this network and this community is fighting against.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
Yeah, and that's why, you know, I said before, it's sad that it took this level of chaos for folks to wake up, but here we are. Nevertheless, I'm happy that people are waking up, but I want to go back to that fraud that Trump perpetrated and continues to perpetrate on the American people, because I think it plays into all of this and plays into the election and what we're seeing right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
And it goes back to what we've been saying on these episodes about the reality deficit that Donald Trump ends up running into. You could lie all you want when you're not in power. Once you're in power, all of a sudden, you have to take responsibility for your actions because the voters are going to hold you responsible for your actions. And so Trump may say that Ukraine is Biden's fault.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
He may try to blame everything on everybody else. But people know that when they go to the store right now, that eggs are at the highest they've ever been for them to go. They know that when they go to buy things, that things are more expensive than they've ever been. They know when they are fired from their job.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
They know who they are blaming for that when they see Donald Trump's reckless tariff decisions. And these things are going to get worse. And I want to remind people going back to what we were talking about, Ben, with those disaster declarations, because it is just... the epitome of cynical and malicious and vicious and vile.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
When you think about the messaging that Trump and these Republican influencers, these MAGA influencers, these disgraceful people spread during the Biden administration. As you mentioned, Ben, what did President Biden do anytime there was any sort of disaster, whether it be red state or blue state? President Biden picked up the phone. He called that governor.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
He said, the federal government is here to help you with all efforts, no matter what you need, you let us know, signing those emergency declarations right away, getting to work every single time. And you know what happened when that happened? Trump, those MAGA influencers, they lied. They told people the Biden administration's not doing anything for you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
In fact, they're giving away all their relief money that should be going to you to illegals. They're going to the illegals and not to you. They riled people up. They encouraged them not to call the FEMA hotlines.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
Remember, Ben, we brought in the FEMA spokesperson in order to make sure that people knew exactly how to get the help that they needed during some of these storms because Trump was spreading all these lies and people were afraid to call FEMA to ask for help for these issues.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
Remember the lie about the $750 that all these bad influencers spread every single time because that was the congressional limit of immediate funds to be dispersed to help people in the immediate aftermath of a storm individually as President Biden additionally gave millions and millions of dollars to these states to help rebuild, to help them, and more aid at the end of the day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
But Trump, these MAGA influencers, every time they said, wow, that's what the government thinks about you. They're only giving you $750 after the storm. How dare they? They spread those lies every single time this happened, exploited people's sufferings in order to commit this fraud on the American people. And now you know what they're doing? Zero dollars, no money to you. We're not going to help.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
You try to call us, guess what? We're not going to get back to you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
and you know what all those mag influencers all those trump people they celebrate it now they celebrate that this administration is making you suffer they celebrate the pain that they are inflicting in all these states it is the epitome of vileness that we are seeing from this administration day in and day out and quite frankly one of the only ways to counter that is with flooding the zone with the truth and making people wake up with facts facts and more facts
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
And maybe one of Trump's cabinet members went to like a Chinese restaurant in DC, but there's no record or any evidence of Donald Trump speaking with anybody at the Chinese government. And I have to say it's a sad state of affairs right now when we actually trust the comments from the Chinese government over our own federal government. It's really just a- By far, yeah.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
It's not even a close call here. They are clearly being far more honest than Donald Trump because Trump and Caroline Leavitt and all these people, they keep trying to say, oh, everybody's coming to us. Our phones are just ringing off the hook right now. We can't stop them from calling us. We know nobody is calling.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
This has been a complete failure and Trump and this administration are trying to dig themselves out completely. of a problem of their own making. By the way, I love that the Chinese government, the spokesman used the phrase fake news to describe what Donald Trump was peddling. Their language, I think, was quite deliberate there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
Let me read you this statement as well that I have pulled up right here. This is from
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
wang yuei the director of the institute of international affairs at renmin university in beijing this is how he described donald trump and why chinese officials mistrust trump and do not want to talk to him at all i think this is very revealing right here he says the following the pressure on trump at home is mounting and much of his current messaging is aimed at appeasing domestic concerns he's getting a bit flustered now
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
But China doesn't buy into his talk about substantially lowering tariffs. He says one thing today and another tomorrow, maybe increasing them again the next day. He is not trustworthy. And that individual also emphasized that China is, quote, in no rush to talk to Donald Trump. They say that China is well prepared to handle lockdowns.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
all the economic pressure, and this is all on Donald Trump and the United States. And this is the problem that we've been pinpointing the entire time with this strategy, and I don't even want to call it a strategy because it's just a freaking mess.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
i'm doing well ben great to be here with you great to be here with everybody out there watching and listening whether it's apple podcast spotify youtube wherever it is great to be speaking with you really feels like penn in the past even just 24 hours even if that the level of desperation from donald trump has ratcheted up we are seeing just these unhinged posts like like we're used to the unhinged post don't get me wrong but they've really ratcheted up because i think trump is looking at the data he sees what people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
Trump says one thing one day, he says another the other day, so whether you're a negotiating partner in the world like China or the European Union or Japan, you name it, or whether you're an American business trying to make long-term business plans for the betterment of your industry, for your business, for your employees, you simply cannot.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
You can't do anything right now because you don't know if Donald Trump's going to reverse himself one day to the next, if he's going to put this policy, put that policy, and that instability is causing mass chaos, whether it's in international affairs or whether it's within our own business community here in the United States.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/25/25
Think about him. He sees all these losses in the court. He sees himself being humiliated by Putin, by Xi Jinping, and his back is against the wall right now, and he's trying to do everything he can to dig himself out. Apparently, the only way he knows how to do that is by sending a mean tweet.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
The kid gloves they treat these people with, like him and Elon Musk, it's like, what are you doing? They're technically the most powerful people and rich people. They can handle a little bit of pushback. I'll also just say the facts here because all of Donald Trump's numbers were wrong, I will specify, because he said we had a $250 billion deficit with Canada.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
It's $54.999 billion and that's driven only by the fact that we do have to import Canadian oil and gas. if you remove those energy imports, we actually have a trade surplus with Canada if you remove those key imports. But there's a reason that we import oil and gas from Canada. And you see these countries, whether it's Canada, whether it's Mexico, you see them not buckling over.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
And he's actually uniting factions in these countries who wouldn't ordinarily come together for a common purpose. That common purpose, striking back at the United States of America.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
And this is wholly unprecedented in our history where we have our allies coming together, all their different political factions, to actually try to oppose the United States, to try to inflict pain on the United States as they defend themselves. And it just shows just such utter weakness from the White House that we are now embroiled in all of these kind of foreign countries in this way.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
Let me just say, those moments to me are the most revealing moments for Trump and the MAGA movement and the right-wing media because they choose very carefully about what they cover and how they go about it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
And when there's a moment like that, a religious figure speaking out, and by the way, not speaking out against Donald Trump, but speaking out about the actual values of the religion, speaking out about mercy, speaking out about kindness, speaking out about treating your neighbor with care and love.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
When that message hits and goes viral in the way it did, that is the biggest threat imaginable to this entire house of cards that Donald Trump, MAGA, Fox News, the whole right-wing propaganda has built. So what do they have to do? They have to attack it like an immune system attacking a virus in your body. And you just see them all at once
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
go into immediate mode okay how do we take this message of love and unity and the teachings of the church and make it so it's repulsive and that our people don't want anything to do with it okay let's call it woke let's call her a woke lib let's call her uh nasty and rude and this and that and you very clearly see the moments that they fear the most And I think that says a whole lot about it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
I know we posted the clip of this bishop on our social media, received something like over, last time I checked, over 150,000 likes, something like over 10 million views.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
and that's just instagram right and then we got hundreds of thousands of likes on the other platforms it's insane um the response that you saw from people online all those like kind of blue check people on twitter and all that were that was satanic satanic There couldn't be anything less satanic than a bishop of a church preaching kindness and loving thy neighbor.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
These people need to pick up a frickin Bible and actually understand what their religion is supposed to be about, because clearly they are not worshiping their God. They are worshiping Donald Trump, and they've gone way astray at some point over the past few years, and they should be ashamed of who they become.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
I know we could say this with just about everything, but imagine if Joe Biden or somebody that close to the Biden administration was asked about inflation and they said, how are we going to deal with this inflation issue? A lot of American consumers are suffering out there. Egg prices are through the roof. People are really, they're taking two jobs, three jobs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
They're really trying their hardest right now to just stay afloat and to live. I tell them to get over it. Get over it. So be it. Get over it. I mean, what a let them eat cake moment right there from Jamie Dimon and from the Trump administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
And once again, going back on all of the rhetoric that was stated throughout the entire campaign, I guess it's easy to get over it when you are worth approximately $2.7
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
billion dollars last time I checked, but there are families out there who are struggling, and when egg prices go from being $1.99 for a dozen, $2.99 to 13 bucks, that affects people's ability to do other things, to pay their rent, to pay their mortgage, to send their kids to school, to do even just the very basics, to put shelter for their family, to actually help their families.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
This is serious stuff that people are dealing with. And the broligarcs, the oligarchs, all these people, Donald Trump, all the people around Donald Trump, They just seem so out of touch to me when you're making comments like that and are just so brazen about it while people are in pain.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
And while I'm sure a lot of the people who voted for Trump were also hoping that one of his first day actions would be to do something to help prices, not to help drive all the prices up on everything like he actually did. I mean, he's screwing people over. in such a huge way while he lines the pockets of people like Elon Musk and Jamie Dimon and Mark Zuckerberg. It's atrocious.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
Like I've said on the show numerous times, it's the most obvious contrast to be made right now that this is really a battle of the working class versus the oligarchs. And the oligarchs think they could openly mock
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
Well, I have two feelings on it, Ben. I say, first, this feels like the world's longest week we've ever had. I mean, this week feels like it's been 10 years somehow. But we're getting through it, folks. At the same time, I also share your optimism here. I also think that Donald Trump really does look weaker than ever. Trump
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
you i mean that's what jamie dimon is doing in that clip he's basically spitting in your face like are you gonna really take that because you want a simp for donald trump like seriously guys i just really they're not even sly about it to your point they're so overt with it and like they have no tact
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
Here's the one small area where I'm going to differ from you because I'm just not going to pretend like I know what the American people are going to think about policies. They're going to think about things the way they consume information. The problem is Donald Trump is out there doing all these distractions in order to make people look the other way.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
So that's why I think it's our ultimate job, and when I say our, I mean this entire community, is to get out this truth in a world where Donald's distractions rise to the top of the algorithms and are pushed out by the same oligarchs who are taking advantage of the American people so that they don't hear
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
that comment by Jamie Dimon so that they don't see that Donald Trump is raising prices, so that they don't see that their workplace was just raided by ICE. That's up to all of us to be shoving these images in people's faces.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
That's why I think it is important that we occasionally, in these circumstances, show Donald Trump saying this stuff, because people need to be seeing right now what is actually going on. Trump's gonna continue to throw everything out to see what sticks, right? He's gonna see, he's the master of distraction, as Ben says, a weapon of mass distraction. He's gonna use that tool to his advantage.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
And I've seen comments by journalists in the media And they freaking love him. They love him. I've seen all their posts. They're giddy. They're giddy that Trump is back. I'm just telling you the truth. I've seen them. I've seen comments that they made to each other. It disgusts me. Why are they giddy? Because, oh, we get to go in the Oval Office and we get to shout things at Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
we get to go in the oval office and you look it's so cool in here because we get to yell questions at him and he gets the spews and back at us and we get to be in here and it's so cool you guys we didn't get to be in here as much under president but i don't care about your access to the oval office i care about are you getting the true uh information there was an article that came out over the past 24 48 hours or so um that said that were these reporters for these corporate media stations
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
We're very happy that Trump is back because during the Biden administration, instead of getting shouted at by President Biden in the Oval Office and in these impromptu press conferences, they were given data from the experts about what is actually going on. And that bored the hell out of them. That was very boring for them to get the actual updates about
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
probably is at his safest when he is campaigning because that's when he could just lie without consequence and he could do his bluster and he could do everything he wants. When he actually has to lead and he actually has to say things that are consequential and affect major issues going on in the world, you realize quite quickly, and I'm not saying I know all of you,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
how policies were impacting people's lives and what the moves are at the administration. But now they get the show. If their reporter gets yelled at, guess what? That's a story. My reporter got yelled at by Donald Trump. I'm going to talk about that. We're going to show that moment. It sickens me that they like this so much for all the wrong reasons.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
It's not because they're going to be able to deliver more accurate information to the American public. It's because simply they are able to kind of be in the fray and be part of the story, which I think is exactly what you do not want to be doing at this stage.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
all know this but you realize quite quickly how completely and utterly incompetent he is how he doesn't understand how anything works how his uh actions are being blocked left and right by the federal judiciary um he's not even able to get around that because his actions are so egregious and you really see uh kind of an emperor has no clothes kind of situation
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
happening right now when Donald Trump's biggest promises that he made, whether it's with Ukraine or anything else, all of a sudden those are all falling to the wayside. I haven't heard Donald Trump say one thing about prices, nothing about egg prices, nothing at all. It's like he's simply trying to distract from all that stuff because he knows right now, oh crap, I actually got to do things?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
Well, let me just also hit the people with some facts here about this executive order because it's the ultimate distraction. Fred's coming in with the facts. Let me come in with the facts. Let me come in with the facts haymaker right here, brothers, okay? The executive order, when you actually read it, it just requires the DNI and the AG to offer a plan within 45 days. to release those documents.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
It doesn't actually release the documents. It requires them within 45 days to come up with a plan to release them and has zero actual time. Is that the concept of a release? It's a concept of a release. It's a concept of a release of these files. So there's literally no timeline on the release of any of these files.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
it's like i say on every episode trump is the king of uh of doing the uh you know the squirrel the the you know waving the keys in front of the dog or or saying squirrel to the dog in the movie up um he's able to distract his people as he picks their pockets uh by putting these um you know things that attract their attention like like this and a move like this which really doesn't in its current stage
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
have really any meaning, but also avoids the real fact that he's hiding the Epstein files, which he could release if he wanted to release them, I presume, and doing this to distract his people because they all jump on this stuff right away. It's just such an obvious pattern that we've seen. And I'm all for transparency. I'm all for release. He released everything. Who cares?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
But I think what he's not doing is really the story in all of this. And it's important that people don't take the bait of what he's trying to do. The announcement of Trump is him waving the keys to the dog. Don't get distracted by the jingle jangle. Look at what's actually going on behind his kind of sleight of hand.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
Well, I don't know how to do things, so let me distract them and throw a bunch of other stuff out there to try to give the kind of impression that I'm doing a lot while I'm actually doing nothing to help people's lives. In fact, what I'm doing is I'm doing everything I can to enrich the billionaires around me, to extract more money from my followers and give it to the richest people in America.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
That's what we're seeing right now, folks. I mean, that's the one thing that I think he is succeeding at. It's enriching his billionaire buddies, enriching himself through illegal schemes. That's what we see kind of forming at this point, in my opinion.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
And we're going to see him completely fail at the actual job of being president because, quite frankly, he doesn't want the job of being president. He didn't run because he wants to help people. He ran because he wanted to stay out of prison. Mission accomplished there. But he didn't run to actually help the people. He ran to stay out of prison.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
He ran to make himself and his billionaire buddies richer. That's what he's actually going to focus on. So we need to focus on Donald Trump's actions and not the distractions. Jordy, great to see you as always. What's new on your end?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
I don't have much else to add. I think you summed it up perfectly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
I think one of the things that we're all going to have to kind of figure out going forward here as a community is we have to understand that every single day, in addition to the real tangible stuff that is going to happen and is going to affect people, Donald Trump and his allies are also going to throw out a bunch of things to distract you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
These might be outlandish statements to get you focused on the shiny object.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
this may be what andy ogles is doing right here with this amendment right oh trump's going to be there for a third term and that's not going to go anywhere i promise you but they're going to throw out all this stuff every single day to try to spark outrage to try to get a news cycle to try to make you kind of lose it feel defeated and all of that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
What it's our job to do here when we report the news and as part of a community that considers itself to be pro-democracy is to figure out how to parse and separate what is real and what is BS. What do we need to be worried about? What is somebody trying to take our eye off the ball? What is actually happening to our country as a result of these actions?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
And what is Donald Trump saying is going to happen to our country with his rhetoric? And that's, you know, I think one of the main goals of this community right now is to figure that out and make sure that we remain focused. And I know that this community is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
is intelligent i know that this community is more geared up for this task than anybody out there and so i'm so grateful uh to have this opportunity even in these dark moments to be in this with you to be fighting with you all and to be able to get out the truth in this way with these sorts of numbers with the strength that we have and i feel the strength in this community right now as we come together i feel you all with this energy
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
right now, coming together in order to protect what we've got of our democracy. It's just such an honor.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
Jordi, to piggyback off that comment, I think one of the interesting kind of dynamic switchups that we are already seeing is that MAGA had presented itself the last few years as the voice of the anti-establishment, right? They position themselves as we are the counterculture. We are the counterculture and we're coming after the establishment.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
There is nothing more establishment than the MAGA movement right now. mean y'all are in power and every branch of government you are literally like the party of the billionaire oligarchs you run social media you run the news media guess what you are the establishment you are the man so all you people are
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
All you right wing propagandists out there trying to still act like you are some anti-establishment type. You are just out there simping for billionaires and for the elite. And I find it so utterly embarrassing when I see you licking those boots every single day. It's embarrassing. You are embarrassing the hell out of yourself. And we all see it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to Trump COLLAPSING TERM
This is more important. My vendetta against Joe Biden and my threats of prosecuting Joe Biden for nothing, because he didn't do anything wrong, is more important to the American people than the economy. That's what Donald Trump is trying to tell people in that clip.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Those are the best jokes. Those are always the best jokes.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
All right, let's talk about aging better. Have you heard about senolytics? It's a class of ingredients discovered less than 10 years ago and scientists are calling it one of the biggest breakthroughs for healthy aging and staying in your prime. I've been using qualia senolytic and I feel the difference. You only take it two days a month and it helps your body eliminate senescent cells.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Our standing in the world is as low as it's ever been. It's really horrible. There are reports also that European military powers are currently planning, they're working on a five to 10 year plan to replace the United States in NATO.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
You are seeing also, you know, Charlie's warning about the travel advisory and all these countries are, but a lot of these countries are already actively boycotting the United States as well. So much so that like this is a pretty crazy story that came out yesterday. But a bunch of Canadian airlines right now are actually canceling flights to the United States, canceling flights.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
One airline's canceling their flights to Tennessee. One airline's canceling flights to a bunch of other U.S. destinations. And a lot of something like 85% of travelers in the past month or something have canceled their flights or have said that they would not take any trips to the United States from Canada. And that is going to really affect the United States GDP, our tourism industry.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And the beneficiary is going to be places like the Caribbean and other places where Canadians are going to go. They're going to spend their hard-earned money at places that actually respect them. It's really unfortunate that we're seeing such horrific behavior. I think one of the interesting things, though, that's coming out of all of this is Canada had a party, their Conservative Party.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Pierre Palliev is their Conservative Party leader. And their strategy initially was to embrace Donald Trump. In fact, their strategy was to echo all the words of Donald Trump, was to become mini Donald Trumps. And they thought, oh, that's hot down south over there across the border.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
So if we imitate that here, we should soar to a same victory because as we see across the world, these liberal democracies continue to fall and they're being replaced by these MAGA wannabes. So they implemented that strategy and for a while it was working.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
But I guess it becomes difficult to have your philosophy be sort of Canada first in that perspective when the person who you are supporting wants to destroy the very idea of Canada as a country and destroy your sovereignty.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And all of a sudden, folks like Pierre Polyev and other people in the Conservative Party in Canada found themselves supporting a guy who wanted to destroy them and their country and their people. Now they're trying to actively run away from months and months and months of pretending that they were big Trump sort of guys, big MAGA sort of people in Canada. And meanwhile, their polls are plummeting.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
The Liberal Party has just soared in the polls. There's been just an enormous shift in these elections. So now you have Mark Carney. He is reportedly... going to be calling these snap elections that are going to be held in April, according to the reports. It's a parliamentary system in Canada. He became the prime minister following Justin Trudeau's resignation as party leader.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And it will be Carney, ultimately, you know, it'll be the Liberal Party versus the Conservative Party. And now the Liberals are in the best possible situation to sort of victory after all of this. But you could just go back.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
I think one of the interesting things now is you are sort of seeing this coordination play out between the Conservative Party in Canada and between Donald Trump, because they know that Trump now is a curse, that any sort of support from Trump is actually extremely negative to their chances. So now they're trying to play this ridiculous game.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And it's like, how stupid do you think people are, Pierre Palliot? How dumb do you think people are? Give me a break. So Donald Trump gave an interview the other day, and he was sort of pretending like, oh, yeah, I don't need the conservative party. I may even get along better with the liberal leader. Yeah, okay. And now Pierre Polyev is trying to run with that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
He put out this ridiculous statement that he got ruthlessly mocked for online, where he said, last night, President Donald Trump endorsed Mark Carney. Why? That's just a lie. He didn't endorse Mark Carney. Yeah. Why? Because as Trump said, he's easier to deal with and know that I will be a tough negotiator and always put Canada first. Dude, you were selling out your country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
You were selling out your country's sovereignty to Donald fricking Trump. Don't even give me this. I'm not even going to read the rest, but just lies, lies, lies, lies, lies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
The PP pivot. And so little PP over here, you know, you could go through his history and like he would just mimic anything Donald Trump said. And like we have the receipt. So I'll play you this clip, for example.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
I don't think... All right, we could do some more.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
mean the video speaks for itself so you could try to distance yourself all you want from the guy but frankly it looks embarrassing and it's actually shows how once this house of cards collapses this whole maga sham just how weak and pathetic and embarrassing the whole thing looks like now you're trying to pretend like oh i wasn't actually like trump this whole time and it just shows you know once they're on you know i know things feel like super tough right now right because
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
that you have trump and these maga lunatics here in the u.s and control of all the branches of government but it shows you how once they're sort of out of power and how that shift could happen super quickly like those conservatives they thought they were a shoo-in in canada but once that flip happens look how weak they look they were in a position of strength they thought they were invincible the same way the mega people in the united states feel like they are invisible once that power shift happened once there was that one inciting incident in this case it was trump essentially declaring economic war or worse
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
on canada once that switch flipped look how the dynamic shifted look how the culture shifted look how the people shifted and that same thing could happen here in the united states brett pierre poliev went on the far right wing jordan peterson podcast
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
I got a badass lemon tree from Fast Growing Trees. You do. And I just get to walk outside, grab a little lemon, squeeze it in the comments.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Yeah. And to listen to all those interviews, by the way, we put all those on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and the Midas Touch Podcast. So be sure to check them out. Like I said earlier, it's a super easy way to just go through and listen to all the various interviews. These guests that we've had lately have been great.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And I think the through line between all of them, and I think the reason that they've been resonating with folks and the feedback has been so good, is because all the folks that we just showed you are fighters. And I think the real division right now in the Democratic Party is Isn't between left or right? Is this person too progressive? Is this person too moderate or centrist?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
I think that's a head fake because that's not how voters think about things. Just not. I think the divide within the Democratic Party right now is, is this person a fighter or is this person a pushover? And what we are seeing is the fighters rising to the top. They are solidifying themselves as the future leaders of the party.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And the folks like the, let's face it, the Chuck Schumers and folks like that who cave are the cavers. And people don't want cavers right now. They want people who actually stand up or at least are able to articulate their positions. And I could go on about Schumer all day. I think he went about that whole process just completely wrong. wrong.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And if he was going to do that position that he did, he should have messaged it in advance and explained it to the people why, and not try to do a humiliation media tour after the fact to try to save his ass. But that's beside the point.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Yeah. But I want to highlight the fighters. And these are the fighters right here. AOC, she's somebody who goes out there unabashedly, stands for her values, speaks to working people from the perspective of somebody from the working class. I think that's powerful. Our interview with Senator Bernie Sanders, same thing, speaking from his heart about the working people and the Republicans.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
They could try to say, oh, they're far left, they're this, they're that. A lot of the American people do not view it that way. And like AOC said in that clip, wanting people to have health care, wanting people to be able to afford living, housing, things like that doesn't make you a communist.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
That makes you actually want to build back to what the best parts of America were throughout our history and make this country actually better for the people. And so, you know, that's what I see. And I think, you know, with Kentucky Governor Beshear,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
powerful powerful powerful words from him especially considering that he's in the state of kentucky which let's face it is a very red state donald trump won by what 30 points in kentucky over 30 points but you know who else won in kentucky andy beshear and you know what he didn't have to do he didn't have to run away from his values he didn't have to throw the lgbt community under the bus he didn't have to pretend like he was something he is not and like i was saying with canada um
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
I think if you run away from your values, if you start backing this MAGA thing, or if your theory is, I need to be more right wing in order to appeal to this group, once the culture shifts, You're done. You're done.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Once the pendulum swings back and people make the case for why inclusion and diversity is important, for why people deserve basic human dignity, why people deserve healthcare, why people deserve affordable housing, once that becomes the conversation and this MAGA stuff becomes a disgrace,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
and the hatred that these maga people and these right-wingers are pushing at the lgbtq community at anyone who's not white as they the stripping away of these various programs the removal until it was restored of jackie robinson's story from the government websites about the Navajo code talkers. They're just removing, trying to remove all history of any non-white people in this country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Once the pendulum swings, you do not want to be on the wrong side of it. So don't sell out. You don't have to sell out in order to win. No one's going to go for you if you're just like, listen, I'm MAGA light, but I'm a Democrat. It's not going to work in my opinion, but that's why I like these folks we've had on the show recently.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
True fighters sticking up for their values, providing a blueprint or at least the beginnings of a blueprint and what it actually means to fight and how to bring the fight in this new Trump era.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
No, just thank you. I had this great show. I packed a lot of information into the show. Man, covered a lot, and I know there's a lot more. But we love doing these longer shows a couple times a week. Thanks to everybody who's listening. Like I said, to listen to all those interviews that Ben did with those great fighters, politicians out there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
They're on the Midas Touch podcast audio and video feed. And we view this project as existential. We really do. In that, we think we are fighting for the existence of this country, for the existence of a better world. And so every single day we want to try, we try to think like, how could we make the world better? And how could we move things forward, even in the face of adversity?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And it's an honor to be able to do that with all of you. So thank you. Jordy, you want to take us away? Shout out to the Midas Mighty!
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
What's going on, Ben? What's going on, Jordy? What's up, everybody listening and watching? It's good to be here with you. A lot of news to cover. A lot is going on. I think it was just, what, like two days ago or something, three days ago, when we played some of these clips from Lutnik, some older clips of him on Fox and whatnot, and And we were comparing him to a sleazy used car salesman.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And just two or three days later, he's literally going on TV to sell a car salesman's stock. I think it's a little on brand for this guy and just completely unethical. It's got to be illegal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
like just this whole entire administration is just for the oligarchs by the oligarchs and it's all about trying to protect themselves and make themselves richer it's so obvious what is going on as they extract the wealth from the people from the working people try to make people's lives that much more difficult while they give money to their billionaire buddies it's happening every single day and we're seeing it and also of course the cruelty is the point ben
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
seeing the stuff about the immigration, the deportations. But honestly, deportation isn't even a good enough word for what we are seeing. Maybe kidnappings, abductions. What we are seeing right now is Donald Trump's Gestapo going out there in the form of ICE, going out there and whisking people off the streets, sending them to El Salvadorian prison camps without any due process whatsoever.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And I said it last week. I said it in the last show. I said, they want to trap you. They want to trap you in this argument, this false choice between you could either support what he's doing or you support the criminals. That is a false choice. That is bullshit. What is actually happening here is they want to violate the law, carte blanche, and they want to make up excuses to do it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
So they make the excuse and they say, well, these are violent gang members. The violent gang members, we're getting them out of the country. Everybody should like that. And you go, okay, but how do you know that?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
trust me just trust me i said they're a gang member so you got to trust what i am saying well you don't really have a history of being honest donald trump or tom homan or stephen miller so we're going to need some more proof on that that's what due process is that's why we have a united states constitution and it seems like every day now
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
We are learning more and more things, more and more horror stories from lawyers of people who were sent over there who have zero gang affiliation whatsoever, Ben, like the soccer player who you mentioned. This story is horrific.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
A Venezuelan professional soccer player who was tortured by the Maduro regime came to the United States seeking asylum, did everything the right way, was here in this country legally I want to make that clear. Was here doing things the right way? But what this administration decided they would do is they said, okay, here's how we're going to deport people. Here's how we're going to abduct people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
I should say what it actually is. We are going to come up with gang identification criteria. And we're going to say, if you meet two gang identification criteria, then you get abducted and thrown to an El Salvadorian concentration camp. If you meet one, then you are a gang affiliated. You are gang associated. What are the criteria?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Well, in this case, it was the fact that the guy just had a tattoo. It was a Real Madrid soccer tattoo. But they said, you have a tattoo that's probably like a gang tattoo. You're a gangster. So that's what they said, number one. Number two was him throwing up the like rock and roll sign with his hands. It's also the sign language for I love you. A very common pose. I'm doing it right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Arrest me. I could say I'm part of a gang. But he had a picture like this up on his social media. And they said, well, that's two for two. Two gang criteria identified. we're taking you, we're sending you to El Salvador, to these prison camps to be ruthlessly manhandled by this prison, which treats people horrifically, despite the fact that you didn't do anything wrong.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And don't even question us on this. And this is in the courts right now. And the judge is demanding action. It looks like They are heading for a contempt ruling in court because they're refusing to actually say any information to the judge, Judge Boasberg, about these deportations because they know anytime they give more information, they are revealing that the entire thing is a scam.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And that's all MAGA is, guys. MAGA, the entire thing, is built on a house of cards of lies. It's all a lie, it's all a scam, it's all propaganda, and it's all made possible in a lot of ways thanks to a complicit media and thanks to a complicit social media with algorithms that push all this disinformation and lies at people all day. in order to disinform the public. That's what we are seeing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And that's the only way this House of Cards exists. We'll talk about Canada soon, but you see what happens when the House of Cards collapses, like with the Conservative Party in Canada and little PP over there, Pierre Palliev. And we will talk about little PP and what's going on over there. You like that nickname, Jordy?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Yeah, yeah. And what's going on over there as they tried to go full MAGA, and now it is backfiring on them. We'll get into all that. I don't want to take up too much time because we haven't said hello to Jordy yet. Jordy, what's happening?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
That's why it's also a pathetic journey, right? Because they try to sick the DOJ, Pam Bondi, and they go, oh, anyone who protests in front of Tesla now are domestic terrorists. I saw there was a group that was organizing yesterday that is planning these various protests at Tesla dealerships across the country. And I saw all of these MAGA influencers online posting it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And it clearly said in what they were doing was we want to do peaceful protests. We want to boycott Tesla products. We want to show up at these dealerships peacefully. And they said, arrest these people. Arrest these people. This is terrorism. And that's what they want, right? They want to crush dissent. They want to silence dissent.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And while they are laying off all of these people, they then try to make the argument about Tesla. Oh, so you hate American companies? Oh, so you hate electric cars now? No, I don't hate electric cars. What are you talking about? Nobody hates electric cars.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
When you protested Bud Light and took an AK-47 or whatever you were doing and you were shooting beer cans, was it because of your hatred of beer? Because it's the same kind of concept here. But it's just all built on lies. I saw them going after Tim Walz because Tim Walz was mocking the Tesla stock for collapsing. And they're like, oh, he's celebrating an American industry now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
The House Judiciary Committee. had the nerve to write that oh so now we're celebrating the uh you know the an american an american company uh failing and meanwhile they're the ones who every single day would go go woke go broke bud light disney target you name it and it's just the hypocrisy is just endless with these folks and the more they go into their little
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
And I want to be clear, we all want efficient government. We all want government that works smartly and efficiently. And this is one of those other traps they set, the same way they set the traps with, oh, you support gangs, oh, you don't support efficiency. Of course you support efficient government. We all want it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
But that doesn't mean taking a sledgehammer to every agency and making it so that elderly folks can't call the Social Security office to get help with their Social Security. That doesn't mean just firing hundreds of thousands of federal employees and then being like, oh shit, we just fired the nuclear team. Oh, that's a bad idea.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/21/25
Like when presidents have historically actually focused on efficiency, like a Bill Clinton, for example, they did it methodically. They did it over many months. They did it in an organized fashion, in a targeted fashion. What we are seeing right now is just a complete obliteration of the United States government and the American people are suffering because of it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Yeah, and you know what? I think Zelensky's, Eden, as you know what, as well right now. I think he's, you know, kind of getting it from both sides. I think Donald Trump is really working from a place of extreme weakness right now. I think he's incredibly cowardly. You know, there was a meeting that was scheduled this morning between Kellogg, our U.S. envoy to Ukraine, and President Zelensky.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And so that happened without a hitch. We've seen clips of them meeting each other, look friendly. And by the way, Kellogg is like probably the most pro-Ukraine guy in this entire Trump administration. Like he's actually a good person for that job. But because he is actually a good person for that job, Donald Trump despises him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And we've been speaking about this for weeks now, before Donald Trump was even like – after he was elected, but before he even was inaugurated, we were speaking about Kellogg and we were saying, he's gonna be the first to go. Like this guy is gonna be early out because this is not gonna work with Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And we're already seeing tension right now because as Donald Trump sends his people to Saudi Arabia to suck up to Vladimir Putin, he basically sidelined Kellogg and Zelensky this morning. After their meeting, he actually canceled the planned joint press conference because he did not want them to speak to the press about what they were talking about. Why?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Well, I think first off, he's a little nervous about what Kellogg is going to say. Probably good things about Zelensky. The press would definitely ask him if he agrees with Donald Trump's comments about if Zelensky is a dictator. And he would certainly say no would be what I would think or make clear that he does not believe that. And I'm sure he's also afraid of what Zelensky is going to say.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Mornings are non-negotiable for me when it comes to coffee. Listen, you know I'm the resident coffee geek here at Midas, and I take my coffee very seriously. It's the first thing I reach for, and let's be honest, if the coffee isn't great, my whole day feels off. That's why I leveled up my coffee game with Trade. They are the number one specialty coffee marketplace in the United States.
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It had notes of walnut and lemon citrus, and it was amazing. next level. And I never have to worry about running out because it gets delivered straight to my door. I could honestly say that Trade Coffee has changed my life for the better. Not sure what to try? Well, Trade's Coffee Quiz matches you with your perfect roast in under a minute.
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
I just don't want to bore you. There's a concept that's frequently talked about on the right that comes from gaming culture. And you see a lot of MAGA people speaking about NPCs, right? Non-player characters is what that stands for. An NPC is basically, you know, like you're not the main character, right? You're just like a sheep, ultimately.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
They try to use that to describe anybody who doesn't like Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
when they themselves are the npcs like they are the ultimate sheep they are the ultimate npcs and i'm not going to sugarcoat it but every time that donald trump speaks and shovels this they open their mouth and they eat it all the time and regurgitate it and it's frankly embarrassing it's horrible for the country but you see trump could say anything 50 million condoms whatever and they will repeat in unison
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
50 million condoms in Gaza. And this is about everything. It's the same thing with everything. One of the things that I've noticed that people will often say, because we've been putting out a lot of content all over the place. Shout out to everyone who's following us on Instagram and TikTok and all the other places as well.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
But I notice whenever I do stories there about Doge, people are like, oh, another person who doesn't want the government to find waste, fraud, and abuse. What are you afraid of? You're upset that they're finding all this fraud and abuse? Give me one example. Give me one example of fraud.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And not things that you don't like that the government spends money on, but give me one example of actual fraud. Because so far, literally every single thing that Elon Musk has spread on his propaganda platform has been fake, has been 100% fake. But the NPCs in MAGA just repeated ad nauseum every single time. and they say the same lines to me.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
It's like they're reading from a script and maybe a lot of them are Russian bots, I don't know. But I think a lot of them are just sheep. I think a lot of them are just MAGA NPCs who just regurgitate whatever Elon Musk and Donald Trump say, and they just spout it back to you. And it's frankly embarrassing. We see this now across every lever of government.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And there are issues, there are literally agencies in the government that are designed to identify waste, fraud, and abuse. inspectors general are also there to identify waste, fraud, and abuse. Guess what Doge's first move was? To try to get rid of them or to get rid of them. That's not what you do if you're actually targeting waste, fraud, and abuse. The entire thing is a scam.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
The people are getting scammed on this. And people need to really wake up and stop buying the bullshit that billionaires are shoveling their way. By the way, you think you're going to see any of that money? I'm telling you, you're not. You know what you're gonna see?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
You're gonna see they right now are trying to, this whole Doge concept right now is just so they could try to justify when they give their four and a half trillion dollars in tax cuts to billionaires. They're gonna say, but look, we saved all this money. So now we're giving these big tax cuts when the numbers that they're saying they saved are fake.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And the actual addition to the deficit to the national debt is going to be astronomical. They say they care about the national debt, the economy, inflation. They're making it all worse. And we are right now on a very terrifying trajectory for our economy and for the country as a whole with these people in charge.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
They're losers. Let me just say – sorry, you go, Ben.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
It's a entire movement. And I'm speaking even beyond MAGA. I'm speaking there's an entire international movement of grifters and con artists who are taking over these countries. Malay is just another example of that with his coin, which was a total rug pool. And now he may actually be charged over it. And you see what they do is they take advantage of the most needy people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
They take advantage of the most desperate people. who ironically are often their followers. And so we see that play out in all of these areas that they promised these desperate people these things, these people just taking the information and they regurgitated as we've been saying through these episodes. And we just have to understand the war is far greater than even politics, it crosses borders.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And what we're facing right now is truly an information war right now what we are facing. And we are up against a ton of money. We're up against a ton of garbage, billionaires who control algorithms on various social media apps, basically state run TV in many respects. And so that's why it's really genuinely more important than ever.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
that we continue to band together, push back with the truth, push back with pro-democracy media, and call out the BS every step of the way.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Because what they've learned, and this is why they say the condom thing and why the numbers change and always go up, is not only is lying an effective strategy for them, but the bigger and the crazier and the more absurd the lie, the more likely their NPC people are going to repeat that lie. They've learned that it's a loyalty test and the people are happy to do their bidding.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And so what do we got to do? Well, we got to counter it. We need to call it out and we need a full on opposition every single day to inform the American people. And I want to let you know also, because I'm sure a lot of you folks spend a lot of time on social media and I'm sure plenty of you spend time on Twitter. I know a lot of you don't know a lot of you quit.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
But to the people that do, you get a very skewed sense of the world on those apps because the algorithms are controlled by people who want to feed you a certain message. That's not necessarily the message of the public, which is why I actually like seeing what these polls say about what people are feeling, because it reveals a simple fact that there is far more of us than there are of them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
That was true before the election. It is true now. They are trying to pretend like they have this mandate, this massive majority. BS, it is garbage. We have the energy. We have the momentum. We need to be hammering these messages home every single minute, every single hour, every single day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Those are these zombie cells that build up as we age and contribute to things like aches, slow recovery, and that sluggish middle-age feeling. I feel more energized, my workouts have improved, and I just move better. The benefits have just been absolutely incredible in my daily life. Take a look at Qualia's truly inspired health formulas.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
But then I found Manicora, and let me tell you, it puts all other honey to shame. Manicora honey is rich, creamy, and the most delicious honey I've ever had. The best part? It's ethically produced by master beekeepers in the remote forests of New Zealand. These bees collect nectar from the Manuka tea tree, which is packed with bioactives, giving Manicora a
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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three times more antioxidants and prebiotics than your average honey. Each morning, I start my day with a heaped teaspoon of Manicora, letting the creamy texture melt in my mouth and coat my throat. And it's not just a treat, it's packed with powerful nutrients to support my immunity and gut health. And here's something that sets Manokora apart.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
It contains a special antibacterial compound called MGO, which comes from the Manuka tea tree. Manokora tests every harvest for MGO, and you can see the results yourself through their QR system. It's a honey with superpowers. Whether you're adding it to your food or enjoying it straight off the spoon, it's a game changer. Now, it's easier than ever to try Manicora Honey.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Just head to Manicora.com slash Midas, that's M-E-I-D-A-S, to get $25 off the starter kit, which includes an MGO 850 Plus Manuka Honey Jar, five honey travel sticks, a wooden spoon, and a guidebook. That's Manicora.com slash Midas for $25 off your starter kit. Start your mornings with Manicora. You'll never go back to ordinary honey.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
I should say also, if people want to get really into the weeds on The Legal, we got a great legal show where Ben likes to nerd out on The Legal with our incredible legal experts like Karen and Michael Popock and Dina Dahl. You can check out The Legal AF podcast as well on Apple and Spotify and goes live on YouTube. Check it out. I'm sure you guys will really love that show as well.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
No, the answer is no. It's great to be here with you guys, first of all. What's going on, brothers? What's going on, everybody watching, listening? No, I mean, it's a complete betrayal of American values and everything that we have ever stood for. I want to be clear, and I'm not going to sugarcoat it to folks out there right now. America is no longer the good guy, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
yeah and i got to admit you know my own faults here because for a while i was told that she was like the pro-labor one and i was like oh well at least trump put somebody pro-labor you know for this position it turns out she's reversed everything that she ever said she believed in for donald trump and the and the head of the teamsters apparently loves her for and shame on that guy right sean o'brien honestly what a traitor to his to his union uh to back these people who are destroying
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
unions, who are destroying workers, who are going to lead these people to slaughter. It's quite frankly disgusting.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
But when I watch all of this, when I see people like Bernie Sanders out there bringing the heat during those hearings, when I see people like, I'm not sure if you saw JB Pritzker's speech yesterday in Illinois, phenomenal, fantastic, exactly the kind of fighter that we need right now. And when you see these voices out there, whether it's, you know,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Jasmine Crockett, an AOC, an Auchincloss, you know, whoever it may be, the people who are out there who are throwing punches and are doing a good job. I think that's great. And I think we need to continue to push members of Congress to do as much as possible every single day. I think there are some people doing a fantastic job. A lot of them are not meeting the moment.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
I'll say that happily, not happily. I'll say that honestly, definitely not. But some of them really are doing a great job. But at the end of the day, I've been thinking about the famous words of JFK a lot in the past few days. The most famous thing he's ever said probably. Ask not what your country could do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And I think right now those words are resonating with me more than ever because we could look to all these institutions, right? You could look to the courts. You could look to politicians. You could look to whoever. But I don't think that's where we need to be looking right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
I think we need to be looking at ourselves and what we could all be doing, the ways we could be organizing, protesting, speaking out, demanding that members of Congress do what they promise they do, that they actually put up a fight.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And I think if we're able to coalesce and build this coalition and continue to knock down Donald Trump's approval ratings by exposing him the way we are, I think the power that we are going to see of the people is going to be the thing that saves this country ultimately. And that's why I love when I look out.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
not on the news, but when I see on social media and on the Midas Touch Network, when I see these protests forming, when I see the people speaking up, speaking loudly, loudly, and demanding action. And I want to see more of that. And we all need to be thinking every single day, what could we be doing? Do we have a skill? Maybe you're an artist. Maybe you write songs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Maybe you want to make phone calls. I don't care what it is, but every day we should be thinking, is there something I could do today to try to save my country? responsibility and ownership of this as much as it sucks, as much as none of us asked for this. But I don't even think this is not a partisan thing at all. This is about democracy. This is about our country. This is about normalcy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And I'm not saying America was always the good guy at every point in history, but I'm saying right now that the United States— can no longer be viewed in the world as a good guy. Our guiding star right now is no longer towards the good of the free world. We are now allied, and this is horrifying, but we are now allied with autocracies. We are now allied with dictatorships.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And what we're seeing right now with Trump and Doge, this operation, which I think is a a whole kind of foreign influence operation, kind of both from within and from overseas. It's horrifying. And we should all be united in pushing back against that, regardless of whether you consider yourself the leftiest of lefties, the most conservative person on the planet, moderate.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
I don't care where you are, right? This is an existential crisis that we're all facing. So it's time to come together.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
We are now allied with Russia and our own government right now, including the way they are treating the press, including the various policies, if you want to call them that, that they are implementing. are all straight out of Russia or even Nazi Germany. I always wondered growing up, how could somebody like a Hitler come to power in a democratic country?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
I always wondered, how the hell is that possible? How could the people alongside him let that happen? And then you see videos like that of Marco Rubio and you see all these cowards who are subservient to Donald Trump and do everything that he asks and treat this like it is a game when there are people's lives on the line.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
when there are people's livelihoods on the line, people's health on the line, all the above. It is an absolute disgrace and an utter betrayal. And that's before we even get to Doge, which I got to say is probably the biggest scam in United States history right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
what they are doing and we're going to get into all the details but it is all smoke and mirrors under the guise of cutting waste fraud and abuse and it is just fake like the whole thing is fake it's all bs that's wrapped in these russian talking points to act like look we're making things more efficient as they ruin people's lives as they don't even cut a lot of money you know doge's website get this
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
Doge has this new website up, right? It says that they've cut over, I think, $50 billion or something. NPR looked into it. They've actually cut under $2 billion total. They just make up the numbers and they inflate the numbers. That's 0.003%.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
of the federal budget last year that they've actually cut and that's not even getting into what is doge actually costing what's the cost benefit analysis how much do lawsuits that go against what doge is doing cost the united states and things like that i'm willing to bet that doge is costing the united states far more money than it's actually saving because it's not really saving money
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And what it's going to do is it's going to cause devastation in this country. We're already seeing shaky markets, instability in the markets every single day. Dow's up, Dow's down 600, Dow's up a little, Dow's down. We're seeing our allies freak out over these endless tariff wars that just make zero sense. And then we see Doge mass firing federal workers, people who have worked –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
In some cases, their whole lives in the federal government acting as civil servants is treating them like they're trash, treating them like they're garbage. I'm talking veterans. I'm talking longtime civil servants.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
And what we're going to see in these economic reports as we these next few months develop is a mass loss of jobs, possibly a massive recession, if not a depression as the result of what they are doing. To put it simply, we're going to see exactly what Elon Musk promised we would be seeing right before the election when he said that we would be experiencing pain.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
We're going to break it all down in much more detail. First, I got to check in with Jordy. Jordy, what's up, man? How you doing?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
By the way, before Ben comes in, can I just say, do you remember the shit that MAGA, Trump, all these people gave to Tim Walz and Kamala Harris when they did their first joint interview together after they selected? And by the way, Trump had done one with J.D. Vance. Where the hell is J.D. Vance, by the way? He just tweets and goes to CPAC and stuff. What was that guy doing?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
But anyway, they gave them so much crap for doing that one sit down interview, which is a tradition that all presidents have done in like modern history on TV. Meanwhile, Donald Trump as president is showing up on TV with Elon Musk. And when you watch these interviews, you're right, Jordy, Elon's the one who's in control. And Hannity almost doesn't even take Trump seriously.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
He kind of shoo-shoos Trump while he's trying to speak, lets Elon ramble right over him. At the end of the day, I think their hubris will be their downfall. And I think we're starting to see that actually very quickly when you look at the polling, when you look at people taking to the streets, that they are viewing that they have this mandate and no such mandate actually exists.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/20/25
It's like Nicolas Cage in National Treasure. It's happening.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
i just love this idea that they're cutting waste and then the things that they end up they actually end up just adding more uh debt in the new bills that they keep creating and they just remove things that the oligarchs don't like this is the biggest scam that we are seeing and it's just happening right in front of everybody's face
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Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And then you have all of these internet people, all of these people who are in Elon Musk's replies, people like MAGA influencer Cat Turd. Yes, that is the real name of a MAGA influencer chiming in on these bills, fighting for Elon Musk, fighting for the billionaire. And it's just such a sad indictment on our current politics.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
But specifically on the Republican Party under this Trump and Musk sort of framing, where The government is really right now – these Republicans are petrified of random right-wing MAGA influencers on Twitter. Like that's who they are taking their orders from. That's who they're afraid of getting – they're afraid of mean tweets.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
They're afraid of mean tweets from random people like people named capitalists. turd on Twitter. That just shows you how far this party has fallen and how unserious it is. And then you have a cat turd. You have these people literally fighting in the benefit of billionaires over the benefits of actual people under this complete scam of cutting government spending, which is not what's happening.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
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Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Yeah, and I think he did a great job. I think we got to hear President Biden like we never heard President Biden before. And let's face it, he's not the kind of guy who's loud and boisterous like a Trump who's out there on TV every day posting all cap tweets and videos and all of that. So if I have one regret, it's just that President Biden wasn't doing anything.
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Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
these like weekly um over the past few years because i think it's great when the american people can hear from him directly ben i think you did a fantastic job i think you asked the right questions i think you uh asked tough questions but did it in a very respectful way where it felt like a conversation between two people about the state of the country about his presidency about his legacy about his accomplishments about the future felt a lot more conversational
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
than most interviews. And quite frankly, when I was watching it, it was like a palate cleanser in a way for me, because so many of the interviews that we have seen in these past few years have been so combative. And I think a lot of these people think they're going to get more information out of people by being like that, by being so cutthroat with everything.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And then what you end up doing is you actually don't let the individual speak. But there are ways of pushing back. There are ways of asking the right questions where you get the answers. And we were able, you were able, Ben, to get President Biden on the record, really reflecting on his presidency in a way that I have not seen anywhere else.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And I really haven't seen the president speak like this anywhere. I also, you know, I got to give a huge shout out also to this White House for understanding the value and the importance of independent media like no other White House has in history. The fact that they worked with us to do this interview in the first place, coming to the Midas Touch Network over one of the corporate networks.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
I think that says a whole lot. Their engagement with creators, their engagement with independent media, no other White House in history has done that, especially at the scale that they have done that in this administration. So I have to give them credit as well for being very forward thinking.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And this is something that the president expressed to us both on camera and off camera, that he has a real belief in independent media being the kind of vanguard of truth going forward and playing an important role in our society when we see these news networks so fragmented, when we see these news networks really shift away.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
from the old days, from what their mission used to be at uncovering the truth and instead at chasing the ratings, chasing the drama, chasing the palace intrigue. And so I think it's very cool that somebody, President Biden, especially at his age, can see the value of digital and see the value of what we're all doing here and what all the other creators are doing. in the space.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
I got to give a shout out also to all the other creators who sent in their kind words about this interview and helped promote the interview and told their followers to watch from people like David Pakman and Adam Mockler and just all these incredible pro-democracy voices. I think it's important in these moments that we're just building up independent media,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
as a whole, because we certainly do not have the resources, the money that these corporate networks have. But we have something that is far more powerful than that. We have a community. And if we band together these communities and grow all together, I think that is a powerful thing that cannot be ignored.
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Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Let's face it, after a night with drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. Hey, I gotta be honest with myself, right? It feels like I have to choose between having a great night or a great next day. That is until I found pre-alcohol. ZBiotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.
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It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's the blame for your rough next day. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down.
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Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Just remember to make Z Biotics your first drink of the night, drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Every time I have pre-alcohol before drinks, I notice a difference the next day. For example, after a fun night out with friends at like a local bar or wherever we go, I could still get up the next morning and hit the gym.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And I'll admit, I was skeptical at first, but I tried it at a dinner party with some friends. The next morning, I felt great, ready to tackle the day, ready to do more videos here at the Midas Touch Network. I kept hearing about pre-alcohol and wondered what it was actually like. Now that I've tried it, I get the hype.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Plus with their GMO technology, Zbiotics is continuing to create probiotics that tackle the challenges of modern living. Go to zbiotics.com slash Midas to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use code Midas at checkout. Zbiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee. So if you are unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money. No questions asked.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash Midas and use that code Midas. It's M-E-I-D-A-S at checkout for 15% off. Are you looking for something simple and delicious to add to your wellness routine? Here's the thing. I used to put regular honey into a lot of my foods, breakfast, tea, protein, but then I was introduced to Manicora. And Manicora puts that regular honey to shame.
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Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
I love the flavor, richness, creaminess, and all the health benefits Manicora honey brings to the table. The best way to use Manicora is straight from the spoon first thing in the morning, letting the creamy texture melt in your mouth and coat your throat. Manicora honey is rich, creamy, and the most delicious honey you've ever had.
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Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
It's ethically produced by Manicora's master beekeepers in the remote forests of New Zealand. Manicora honey contains powerful nutrients to support immunity and gut health. The bees collect the nectar from the Manuka tea tree in New Zealand. The nectar is packed with bioactives, and the honey that is produced has three times more antioxidants and prebiotics than your average honey.
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Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
A special bacterial compound called MGO also comes from the nectar of the tea tree. Manicora third party tests every single harvest for MGO and makes these results available through their QR system. It's a game changer and all you need is one heaped teaspoon each morning to get the most out of the amazing bioactives in Manuka.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Additional usage throughout the day is completely fine, especially helping to cut out other sweeteners. It's a honey with superpowers. Now it's easier than ever to try Manicora honey. Head to Manicora.com slash Midas to get $25 off the starter kit, which comes with an MGO 850 plus Manuka honey jar, five honey travel sticks, a wooden spoon, and a guidebook. That's Manicora.com slash M-E-I-D-A-S.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
I'm happy to share this too. After the cameras were off, that was actually a subject that President Biden continued to speak to you about when we were there in the room. And we were in the historic Roosevelt Room, which is right across from the Oval Office in the West Wing of the White House, which is just incredible.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
President Biden emphasized after the interview also, I remember him saying to you something along the lines of, I just want the people to get these programs. I just want the people to be able to succeed. I want them to feel the positive effects of these things. And at the end of the day, I don't care who is getting the credit as long as the people are being taken care of.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
I thought that really shows the difference in styles between somebody like a President Biden and a Trump who is all about me, me, me. He was very much more focused on how are these policies going to impact people's lives and ensuring that they do in fact positively impact people's lives.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Doing great. Good to be here with you guys. Good to be here with all the listeners, all the viewers. Thank you so much. Thank you for all the incredible feedback on that interview with President Biden. Ben, incredible job. What a historic moment, and not just for us here at Midas Touch, but I think it's a historic moment for independent media in general.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Well, let's talk about the economy in what I know is everybody's favorite segment here on the Midas Touch podcast. This is the NetSuite by Oracle Know Your Numbers Minute. That's right, folks. It's time for another NetSuite by Oracle Know Your Numbers Minute. And Ben, let's talk the economy, shall we? So the Federal Reserve on one day did make some cuts to its overnight borrowing rate.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
to a target range now of 4.25% to 4.5% for context. That is back to the level that it was around December 2022. It's a cut of 25 basis points. And while on the surface, that should be good news for borrowers, right? The interest rates are coming down. This is something that everybody was hoping for.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
The comments that the Fed made about the future, I think, are far more important, and the markets thought they were far more important, too, because the Fed said that they would probably only lower rates twice more in 2025, which is far less than they were originally planning for. Why? Over fears of inflations due to potential tariffs and trade wars that could be coming in the coming year.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
So we're already seeing the impact of these future government policies under the future administration having an impact on the way the Fed is setting rates, on the way that economists are perceiving economic growth in the country for the year ahead, and how it is already beginning to impact the markets.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
NetSuite helps you stay on top of all of the government economic policies in a very convenient way. And you could always be assured you'll have a quick adaptation to any new policies through their agile system updates. And so, as I was saying, after the Fed made that announcement, the major stock market indexes all dropped like crazy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
If you were watching the tickers as it happened, all of a sudden they just went way down just went down and so people who saw the initial headline that the fed lowered rates were like why why why would the why would the stock market come down shouldn't it be spiking up no because of those forward-looking indicators um where you have economists in the fed worried about
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
inflationary policies hurting Americans in the future. And so the Dow tumbled more than 260 points yesterday. The markets may have covered a little bit today, but it's been a pretty large losing streak over the past couple of weeks in the stock market since these policies have begun to kind of take hold in the markets as people start to think about what the future is. is going to look like.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And NetSuite also, they provide customization, which gives you customizable dashboards so that you can monitor specific economic indicators that impact your businesses. So that's the latest. That's what I got for you here on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
The fact that such a major interview was landed not by the corporate media, but by the independent media, not a billionaire funded network, but by people who are pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps, supported by the emojis in your chats, your Patreon, your sub stack, all that stuff. Thank you so much from the bottom of our hearts. I'm excited to talk about that experience as well.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And Ben, as I reflect on that information, I think back to what you said earlier in this episode where we were speaking about how not only is President Biden providing for a smooth transition here, but Trump is once again kind of interfering and destroying the transition process. And we are seeing the effects of Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
even before he takes office, the effects that his statements, his threats, his posts, his economic plans are having on markets, are having on people's 401ks, are having on people's cancer funding in the case of this bill, this continuing resolution. And so that's kind of a rare thing for a president to kind of throw away all of his political capital that he has before he even steps into office.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And that's what we're all witnessing. And it's going to get worse. You know, the important thing is that the American people understand where this pain is coming from. And that, I think, is the job of independent media and all of you out there to explain how Elon Musk and his billionaire buddies and Donald Trump are inflicting this suffering, which they said would happen on the American people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And we need to truly, you know, understand kind of what's important out there in our politics and and not chase these shiny objects like the media wants to chase a far too often because there is information that needs to get to the American people. And they may think that that's all that tension, all that yelling and putting people in a room and having them scream at each other and all that crap.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
They may think that that is good for ratings and for clips online, but it doesn't inform the American people at the end of the day. And I think you want to walk away having learned something. You want to walk away getting a sense of who an individual is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
But man, it was quite the experience being out there in D.C., quite the experience being there in the White House face to face with President Biden. And if you haven't seen the interview yet, make sure you go and watch it now. Go, go. It's on our YouTube channel. It's the main video. Go watch it. Share it with a friend.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And Ben, especially in an interview like that, which is really an interview about legacy, really a reflection on the presidency, on President Biden as a person.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
you know because you could have asked about the spending bill you could you know there's a million other directions but this is something that is going to stand the test of time um you know because it's not it's not linked to this specific uh week or few days in time that are going to be gone um you know in a couple days and never remember it again this is going to be there for the record for history as who president biden is was what he is all about what was on his mind
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
in the final days of his presidency. And that's why I think that's such an honor and so cool.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
When you compare the calm, cool, collected President Joe Biden to the chaos of this Republican Party torpedoing their own bill today and – Just having an utter embarrassment. I mean, it shows you the difference between what an actual statesman looks like and what just a chaotic mess looks like. And President Biden is truly one of the last of his kind, in my opinion.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Ben, I just want to ask you while while while we got you here, just a personal question about the interview. Right. You were face to face. with President Biden? What was that experience like, even conducting an interview like this, sitting in that historic room, sitting in the Roosevelt Room, just feet away from the President of the United States?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Just give some insight to our audience on what that experience was like, because I think so few people in history have had that opportunity, and even fewer, obviously, with President Biden.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Let's make sure that as many people as possible see President Biden unfiltered, reflecting on his legacy, his regrets, his accomplishments, what he's going to do in the future and more. Check it out. Pass it around. It's also, of course, on the Midas Touch audio podcast, Apple podcast, Spotify. Check it all out. Jordy, how you doing?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
I'm happy for them to expose it as all BS because the debt ceiling is the most annoying thing ever. I'm happy they finally realized that came around to what a lot of Democrats have been saying for a long time, that the debt ceiling has been used to hold these things hostage. So that Republicans can come in and then try to demand these cuts.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Remember, the debt ceiling is the things that have already, spending that has already been approved. This has been spending that has already been approved in legislation. So the debt ceiling really has just been a block. quite frankly, to actually being able to get our bills paid at the end of the day. It's been used as a cudgel by the Republicans.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
I think it's awfully convenient that now that Donald Trump is going to take office, that he is now pushing for the elimination of that debt ceiling, which was raised, by the way, I believe at least three times under Donald Trump, and we remember how the Republicans have weaponized this debt ceiling over the past few years under President Joe Biden.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
But it just goes to show you that their interests, their beliefs are very malleable, and there's no such thing as them being consistent at all with any of these things. It's all, how is it going to benefit me right now? And right now, Donald Trump sees it in his benefit to remove this thing that, quite frankly, a lot of Democrats have been calling for for a very long time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Meanwhile, they're pushing through all these really unpopular, putting all these things in this spending bill that are just wildly unpopular or rather removing things that are going to be very unpopular with the American people. We'll get into all of that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
But surprise, surprise, what's happening here is this is a very self-serving behavior by the House Republicans, by Elon Musk to benefit their own pockets, to benefit their own bottom line while screwing everyday Americans. I'm glad, though, that all this kind of Doge stuff is quickly being exposed as a complete and total scam this quickly. And you know what?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
Public opinion is shifting on this issue as well. When you look at some of the recent polling out there about Elon Musk, I believe only like 41% of Americans right now, per a new poll, say that Elon Musk, that they like that Elon Musk is being involved in our government assets. at this level. That is a big drop off from what it has been.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And I think we're going to see that because the idea of a billionaire, an unelected bureaucrat who, by the way, unelected bureaucrats are who Elon and Vivek Ramaswamy have been yelling about all of this time. Now, ironically, they are the unelected bureaucrats and they are the shadowy billionaire figures who are coming after the American people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
And I think the American people are finally feeling and going to wait. I didn't vote for Elon Musk. I didn't vote for this guy. Who are you to tell me that I can't get this health care, this food stamp system, this whatever it is, whatever benefit it is. A billionaire is telling people that they have to suffer, that they have to experience hardship.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump SELF-DESTRUCTS + Meidas LANDS Biden EXCLUSIVE
it's things like wait it's not like there's a uh it's not like there's a billionaire car company owner who relies on those sort of foreign investments and oh wait a second now i think i understand why elon musk has sent hundreds if not thousands of tweets about this to sink it
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Let's face it, Xi Jinping is much smarter than Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
all these chinese officials are much smarter than donald trump and and pete hegseth and howard nutlik and all these other people in the trump administration like it's not even a close competition and they know that they could just wait this out and they could go and they could form all their other alliances and find other trade partners and our allies know they could find all these other trade partners and donald trump is going to desperately be begging and donald trump is begging people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
to come to the table with him. He's the one who's begging everybody out there, please help me, let's make a deal. Even if it's like a ceremonial deal, he wants to make something just so he could say he actually got something done, that he actually got something for this. All he got, though, was a destruction of the United States economy. He's rattled global markets.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
He's made a complete fool of himself, of the United States, and of the entire global world order. It's pathetic.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
You just can't capitulate, right? This is something that we've seen throughout the past few years in all Donald Trump's legal cases. You have to take Donald Trump head on because like Ben was saying, if you don't, he's going to keep taking from you. If you think I'm a law firm and I could cut this deal with you and then everything's going to be okay – then I don't, how did you pass your bar exam?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
I don't understand how you could even think that's possible. If you're a company like Paramount or one of these companies who's like, all right, let's settle, let's go, let's figure out a deal we can do.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Because now what's Trump doing with 60 Minutes? He wants to sue CBS again. He's upset because they ran a piece about Zelensky and he looked bad. He's mad about their reporting. He wants to shut them down. It's the same pattern every single time. But if you actually stand up to him, he looks weak because he is weak.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And you need to form these alliances on your own like the schools are forming with each other. And you need to go after them and you need to stand by your principles because this is about our democracy. This is about the United States of America. And once you get rid of those values, we don't have any of that. And that's what so many of these people are doing right now with their capitulation.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Doing great, Ben. It's good to be here. Good to be here, Jordy. Good to be here, Midas, Mighty, all the people watching here on YouTube, all the people listening on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. You know, what we're seeing right now is exactly what I said we were going to see months and months ago.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
It's something we've discussed on this show, and that's this idea of a reality deficit in the Trump administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
this happened in his last administration so it wasn't like it was something that we had to like make up from scratch but trump lives obviously on his house of cards of lies that's what his entire administration that's what everything he does is propped up by by his bluster his propaganda this cult-like refusal to acknowledge objective reality it's the same things that autocratic governments do every single day they have to live in this bubble where facts don't matter only perception matters because that's how they exert their strength
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
So I've been drinking way less lately because the fallout for me the next day just seems to get worse as I get older. But sometimes I still want to kick back without the hangover or that bloated feeling. That's why I'm psyched I found out about Sol's out-of-office THC beverages. They've been a great low-calorie, gluten-free alternative, and they don't cause hangovers.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
You probably heard me rave about their out-of-office gummies, but now they've launched something even better. Out-of-office THC beverages, and they are exactly what I've been missing. I cracked open a raspberry lemonade last night, felt like I was sipping summertime in a can. It's this perfect little microdose of THC and CBD that gives you that chill, euphoric feeling. No hangover, no regrets.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And the flavors? Raspberry Lemonade and Cucumber Melon Lime, total crowd pleasers. Plus, you get to pick your dose, 2.5 mg or 5 mg THC in 6, 12, or 24 packs, so you could ease into your vibe, your way. Sol's drinks have become a go-to in my house. They've really helped me chill out after a crazy day, and you know I have a lot of those. And I love the company's emphasis on health and wellness.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
By the way, shout out to the founders, Mike and Angie Lee, a former pro boxer and a wellness speaker who built soul to offer natural alternatives to stress, sleep, focus, you name it. The Midas Touch Network is a sibling run business. So I love seeing siblings doing great work in other spaces. So if you want to feel your best, head to getsoul.com and use code Midas for 30% off your order.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
That's 30% off your order using code Midas. One last time, getsoul.com and code Midas, M-E-I-D-A-S for 30% off.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
However, once reality catches up and that reality deficit is destroyed, then all of a sudden Donald Trump looks much weaker. You start seeing the approval ratings go down. You start seeing the public turn on him in major, major ways. And that's what we saw in 2019, 2020 with the COVID-19 pandemic. Donald Trump's attempt to consistently run away from reality, that caught up to him very badly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And you could argue that he lost the election over his mishandling or malicious handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, however you want to describe it. And now we are seeing that much sooner in this Trump presidency because he's completely tanked the global economy. He is causing chaos in literally every single facet of life.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
and he cannot escape it he could say to people all he wants about how great things are how prices are coming down how the economy is going great but people see the reality ultimately so it shows him as a uh you know emperor with no clothes sort of situation and it's just happening a lot quicker this time because the benefit that trump always had you guys
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
is that in his first term, he got to ride the coattails of the Obama administration. He had to ride the coattails of the economy that Obama fixed. This time, he inherited a growing economy. He could have done the same exact thing. He could have just sat there. He could have rode this out.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
But instead, he decided to take a sledgehammer to the country and to the world and almost ushered in his own demise. And that's what we are witnessing right now. And that's why things feel so chaotic every single day of this administration. I know we're going to break it all down. doing, Jordy? What's going on, man?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Dare I say that made me a little hopeful to read that. That was a very powerful statement for sure. And I think that message is incredibly important. I think some people are treating this like it's some sort of game. I think too many in the media are treating this like it's some sort of game, but it really gets into the heart of what it means to be the United States of America.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And that's why this is so important. I saw pundits like, and this guy's the worst with literally, I don't think he's ever had a good take in his entire life, but Chris Eliza, who I think he used to be at CNN. I don't think he's at CNN anymore. He did like this whole Twitter thread that I'm reading it right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
He said, let me make the case for why Democrats should not keep talking about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And he's like, when you're talking about that, you're not talking about the economy. Did you even know that the Dow Jones dropped earlier this week? Did he even know that the trade this that way? Yes. Everybody knows all that. Okay. We all know that, okay?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
We can understand that that's happening, and that affects people's lives, and it doesn't have to be messaged every single day because people feel that when they go to the store. They feel that when they look at their 401ks. People are seeing that all the time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
But you want people to ignore one of the greatest human rights abuses that we are witnessing before our eyes, like crimes against humanity that are being committed by the United States of America. You want us to ignore it for political reasons. I've seen some politicians say things like this, some political pundits. It's the worst kind of take on politics.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And it falls into this category of analysis that I freaking despise, which is, oh, here's how this is going to help Trump. Here's how this is going to help Trump. Oh, so this is actually a good thing for Trump, actually. It's actually a great thing for him. Stop it. That's the laziest analysis imaginable. That's not true.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And you have to be able to stand up for your basic principles if you want to lead. You don't just go, oh, it's not that important because the Dow Jones. You think people said that during Nazi Germany? They're like, but the stock market. Let's focus on the stock market. It doesn't matter what Hitler's doing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
You have to be able to focus on these things that are existential to people's lives, to what our country is built on. This gets at the very foundation of this country. And by the way, the premise that this is popular is bullshit also. It's a complete fabrication. Yes, people like the idea of deportations when you poll them. Yes, people like this kind of strong immigration approach.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
But when you actually go granular through the data and you ask them about the Obrego-Garcia case, Trump is completely underwater on this subject. When you actually ask about, are you okay with sending people to El Salvador prison camps? Trump goes underwater on these subjects.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Once you actually get into the details, are you okay with sending somebody who's been in this country for 30 years and is going through all the right things with immigration? Are you okay with sending them away? Trump is completely underwater under all those specific scenarios that you do.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
So what you don't do is retreat and go, oh, you know, I'm not going to support that because we need to talk about taxes. We need to talk about the Dow Jones and we need to, You got to stand up for your values. I think this is one of the things that people hate about politics and hate about political pundits and hate about the media. It's that they always view everything like it's a freaking game.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
There are lives on the line here. It's the American experiment on the line here. And that's why it's more important than ever to hear comments from judges just like that who lay it out with the perfect clarity that we all need and really say the stakes. Because what the judge said and what Donald Trump wants to do here
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
is basically find a loophole for the entire American system, basically find a loophole for the United States Constitution, which is as long as I get this person out of the country and put them in this other place, nothing could be done. Nothing could be, no rules, no constitution, nothing. You can't touch me. And the judge is saying, that's a real problem and that's not okay.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And we need to stop this, nip this in the bud right now, because if he thinks he could do it with this individual, guess who he's coming for next? He's coming for you. He's coming for his political enemies. And it's the truth.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
I just heard about it. Now I have to look into it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
No words, no words. It's like one of those radio, you know, morning shows or something. It's just supposed to, like, humanize the guy and make it all sound silly and jokey, and it's all a part of the way. Like, it seems...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
But it's all a part of the nefarious way that Fox kind of pulls people in in order to then spread their propaganda and make these people who are doing heinous things like disappearing people off the streets feel like they are acting with humanity when they are completely doing the opposite. It's all intentional.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Even the fact, the way the sets look, the way the hosts look, the way the graphics look, the way it all appears like it is news as they're saying this drivel every single day. It's all designed to project the optics of take us seriously. This is news. We're your friends. Hey, we're called Fox and Friends. We're just your buddies over here. We're hanging out with you, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
We wouldn't lie to you, right? And then they just take you into this world. It's why the New York Post and all these other Murdoch entities also layer in a lot of this cultural stuff. That's why the New York Post especially leans into celebrity gossip and stuff like that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Because they know once they pull you in with these salacious stories about these other various topics, they could get you to think anything. They could then direct you to all pro-Trump stuff. And they could then tell you that it's actually not a problem that Supreme Court orders are being ignored. And that might start with some weird little article about just
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Justin Bieber or something that they're putting up there or the Kardashians, whatever they're doing, right? Then they pull you in, then they got you, and then you're in their ecosystem. And so, I mean, that's one of the biggest problems with our country, honestly, like right there, summed up in that video.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
what was it can i just say such a brilliant comparison i wanted to interrupt him and say that too i like i i never even like made that comparison i never put the two and two together but it truly is the exact same formula it's just absolutely brilliant that's all i wanted to say one thousand i appreciate the delays live in front of tens of thousands of people jordan you want to say more great things yeah let me let me continue to gas you up big bro that was
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
The Midas Mighty standing strong Against the fascists we sing our song
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And it all plays into that reality deficit that I was speaking of, because Trump in all these positions just wants a sycophant who's going to lie to the American people and prop up his fragile ego every single day. He wants loyalty, not competence, like every single time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
And that was one of the things that he learned from his first term, which is a horrific thing that that's what he learned from his first term. But he learned, I need all of these loyalists. I need all of these sycophants. I mean, it's the same thing he did with Chris Wray. who he nominated to be the FBI director. Trump personally picked him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
The moment that Chris Wray decided to say the election was not stolen, Donald Trump turned on him as well. And this is how you get chaos. This is how you get corruption. This is how it all begins. And this is the epitome of Donald Trump right here. Right.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
Yeah, I'll take things that never happened for 500, Alex. I mean, it's just the most ridiculous thing on the planet to see these lies every single day. It's like he's begging China. And the thing is, now he's trying to form these alliances or trying to call on other countries like, hey, guys, come join me. Let's help out. Let's all work together against China, right? China's the bad guy, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
It's not us. It's China. Meanwhile, all of our allies, Donald Trump just spent the last few months dissing. Donald Trump just spent the last few months attacking. threatening with annexation, putting tariffs on them. And so Donald Trump has isolated the United States from the entire world. Now the United States is completely isolated.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
China's going and they're going to our various allies and they're cutting all these deals. I think they slashed US crude oil imports into China by 90%. And they're just like, okay, we'll go to Canada. We're gonna get all of our oil from Canada now. See you later. That's already happened. They're going to other countries. And now Trump's like, wait, guys,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/18/25
We're supposed to be together against China, right? We're supposed to be together against China. And they're like, yo, y'all have been screwing us for the past few months. Why should we trust anything with you ever? So now Donald Trump finds himself yet again on an island of his own, and he's forced to lie. I mean, it's just so pathetic. And you know, China's just got to be laughing at him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
He's clearly coached to say as little as possible in these hearings. By the way, I feel like all these people are kind of coached to say as little as possible. You kind of have to assume that most, if not all of these nominees are going to get through now that they've made it to this stage. It's just the makeup of the Republicans, the makeup of the Senate, of the Congress.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
And then they're going to vote along party lines. Some of them will be much wider margins than others, depending on if they're more serious candidates or if they're people like a Hegseth. But Besant's going to get in there easy. But it's still good to get these folks on the record with these questions, which I think why that line of questioning was so important.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
even if he didn't give a straight answer there. But he did give a straight answer in that Bernie Sanders clip, and I thought that was very telling to hear him say adamantly, no, I'm not interested in a federal minimum wage. That's a state issue. The federal minimum wage, it's a federal minimum wage. It's absolutely not a state issue. It's been $7.25 for decades now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
It's quite frankly an embarrassing minimum wage that our country is at. But what I think that folks who want to oppose this administration and this party need to continuously emphasize is the fact that this is the party of the oligarchs. And that's why I was very excited to hear President Biden make that stark warning during his speech, which we'll get to later, his farewell address. But
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
One of the things that I've been pulling my hair out, and I know I've said it on the show, maybe every episode since the election, is like, isn't it so obvious? Look at the people who are running this party. You have Vivek Ramaswamy, who in my opinion, by all accounts, basically scammed his way into becoming a billionaire with the way that he basically did this pump and dump scheme to get rich.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
You have Elon Musk. You have Donald Trump. You have people like Scott Bess. You literally, you have all the oligarchs coming together right now. You have all the kind of big tech people coming together. You have the Zuckerbergs. You have the Bezos. It couldn't be more clear, and the contrast couldn't be more clear.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
So it's like you have something to run against here, and you have policies that are very popular amongst the people. I mean, there's a reason, love him or hate him, there's a reason that Senator Bernie Sanders has something like a 69% oversight. approval rating. I saw this earlier today, 69% approval rating in his state, highest in the entire United States Senate. His disapproval is just that 27%.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Those are unbelievable numbers, unbelievable approval numbers to have in the Senate. And why? It's because he is speaking to these issues. Now, more people should be speaking to these issues that actually resonate with working people. Ironically, many of the people who voted for Trump for whatever reason,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
But these are the people whose policies, the policies of Trump, are going to ultimately end up hurting. And it's like they're laughing in their face when they have Elon Musk up there kind of mocking them and mocking government workers. And you have the Bezos and all these people. It couldn't be clearer. You have such an opportunity for clear, concise messaging on this topic.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Don't let that slip away.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
So how would you handle matters relating to tariff policy, what Donald Trump's going to do by imposing blanket tariffs on every country basically across the world? Will that raise prices? Is it going to create hardship for everyday Americans?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
When it comes to cookware, I've always struggled with choosing between the performance and durability of stainless steel pans and the easy cleanup of non-stick. But then I discovered Hexclad and let me tell you, it's completely revamped my entire kitchen and it's made all my friends pretty jealous. With Hexclad, you don't have to choose.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Their pans combine the performance of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick in one incredible design. So whether I'm searing a steak, making a delicate omelet, or whipping up a quick stir-fry, Hexclad handles it all beautifully. In cleanup, it's a breeze. These pans are dishwasher safe and wipe clean effortlessly. It's seriously the best of all worlds.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
One of my favorite things about Hexclad is how durable they are. I don't have to worry about scratches, even when using metal utensils, thanks to their patented hexagon design, plus they're oven safe up to 500 degrees, making them perfect for finishing dishes in the oven. I've even tried their Japanese Damascus steel knives, and they're a game changer.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
razor sharp, they make slicing and dicing feel effortless, and they stay sharp much longer than your average knife. Here's the kicker, Gordon Ramsay himself uses Hexclad in his restaurants and at home, and we all know he's the toughest critic on the planet. If it's good enough for him, it's definitely good enough for me.
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For a limited time, only our listeners get 10% off your order with our exclusive link. Just head to hexclad.com slash Midas. Support our show and check them out at hexclad.com slash Midas. Make sure to let them know that we sent you. Bon appetit. Let's eat with Hexclad's revolutionary cookware.
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It was a good bit. I mean, Ben knew how long the senators actually have to ask questions. He was going to fill that whole time.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
So he just takes a big spill right off the bat, just nose dives backwards.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Yeah, to remind everyone, he gets arrested after that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
He gets arrested after that and then ends up in the hospital and takes a picture in the hospital. You can judge for yourself if you look up the picture whether this injury is legitimate or not.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Whole lot going on, folks. It's great to be here with everybody. Quick update here from Los Angeles. It feels like things are stabilizing here, which is good. Hopefully things stay that way. Hopefully these winds don't knock anything back up. Thanks again to everybody for all your support over these past few crazy weeks. Oh my gosh, so much in the news right now.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Are you looking for something simple and delicious to add to your wellness routine? I used to rely on regular honey for my breakfast tea and even salad dressings. But then I found Manicora and let me tell you, it puts all other honey to shame. Manicora honey is rich, creamy, and the most delicious honey I've ever had. The best part?
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It's ethically produced by master beekeepers in the remote forests of New Zealand. These bees collect nectar from the Manuka tea tree, which is packed with bioactives, giving Manicora three times more antioxidants and prebiotics than your average honey. Each morning, I start my day with a heaped teaspoon of Manicora, letting the creamy texture melt in my mouth and coat my throat.
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And it's not just a treat, it's packed with powerful nutrients to support my immunity and gut health. And here's something that sets Manokora apart. It contains a special antibacterial compound called MGO, which comes from the Manuka tea tree. Manokora tests every harvest for MGO, and you can see the results yourself through their QR system. It's a honey with superpowers.
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Whether you're adding it to your food or enjoying it straight off the spoon, it's a game changer. Now, it's easier than ever to try Manicora Honey. Just head to Manicora.com slash Midas, that's M-E-I-D-A-S, to get $25 off the starter kit, which includes an MGO 850 Plus Manuka Honey Jar, five honey travel sticks, a wooden spoon, and a guidebook.
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That's Manicora.com slash Midas for $25 off your starter kit. Start your mornings with Manicora. You'll never go back to ordinary honey.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
We made a big announcement on our social media as well this week. that we will not be airing the inauguration here on Midas Touch. We've decided, our editorial staff came together, and we have determined that it is in the best interests of our audience, of the country, for us not to be streaming the inauguration live. We will be having some alternative programming.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Well, first, I just want to pitch, before we get into the economic updates, I just want to pitch our idea for the inauguration. I want to see what the folks think in the comments. So you can let us know in the comments. What if instead of airing the inauguration, because we're not going to air the inauguration, what if we just air videos of puppies throughout the inauguration?
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
I'm not even exaggerating. What if throughout the inauguration- We just do a stream of a loop of a bunch of videos of adorable puppies the entire time. If you like this idea, let us know in the comments. Let us know here in the live chat. I want to hear your thoughts. I'm not kidding. We will go ahead. And you know what would be hilarious as well?
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
If our stream of watching puppies gets more views than the streams of the inauguration. Just an idea. Just an idea, folks. We're throwing it out there. If you like it, Let us know. Okay, time for everybody's favorite segment. Let's get right into it. This is the NetSuite by Oracle Know Your Numbers Minute. All right, it's time for the NetSuite by Oracle Know Your Numbers Minute.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Let's get into the latest economic updates here. As everybody knows, NetSuite provides easy access to economic data and trends through integrated analytics. So let's break down some of that data, shall we, folks? We're seeing some news on mortgages and mortgage rates right now. The 30-year mortgage rate is back above 7% for the first time since May. Freddie Mac says the average rate is now 7.04%.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
This is quite frankly one of the least affordable times to buy a home in the past 40 years. And it's going to be hard to spur a lot more buying or building with rates this high. And I want to be clear, rates were coming down quite substantially leading up to the November elections. That all changed following the results of the elections.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
In fact, just a few weeks ago, the CEO of Compass was interviewed on CNBC. And they said that prior to the election, it was Compass's view that the mortgage rates were heading to the fives either next year or the following year. But then we had these fears of new tariffs and other inflationary policies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
from Donald Trump, from the incoming administration that have now changed the court's course of rates. Now we're seeing them come back up to historically high levels in the past few decades. Honestly, I think it's a huge bummer because, as Ben was saying before, things were heading in the right direction.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Everything was on the up and up, and then we had this huge reversal over these past few months, just the sign of more things to come. In inflation news, we had a new inflation report come out. Inflation was a mixed bag in December. In the report that came out this week, the Consumer Price Index, the CPI, showed some relief in core inflation, which was definitely some positive news.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
But the threat of those sticky high prices continue to loom. Although inflation has been slowing, it still remains above that 2% level by the Federal Reserve. the consumer price index increased to seasonally adjusted 0.4% on the month, putting the 12-month inflation rate at 2.9%. That number was exactly in line with the forecasts of what the experts thought that it was going to come in at.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
The core CPI annual rate, and for those who don't know the core CPI, it excludes food and energy prices because those are much more volatile. So this is a more stable way to measure the underlying inflation trends, though slow to 3.2%, which was a notch down from the month before, so slightly better than the 3.3% outlook that analysts had predicted. That excited investors quite a bit.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
We could get to that maybe a little later or give you some of our ideas, see what you think about it. I think we could still have fun on that horrible day. Int, int, lots of puppies. He's not kidding. It's supposed to be a surprise. Come on. I was trying to do the deep tease over here. Let me tell you exactly what it is. That's not how hints work. Yeah. Ben's not good at the deep tease. It's okay.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
If you all saw the various markets, the stock market indices rise in a big way on Wednesday, that was why, because the markets reacted positively to that number. NetSuite offers tailored reporting features that allow businesses to focus on specific stock market indicators relevant to their sector. That way, your business can always be ahead of the curve no matter what happens.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Shelter prices, housing, which comprise about one third of the CPI weighting rose by 0.3%, but we're up 4.6% from a year ago. That's the smallest one-year gain since January 2022.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
The stubborn inflation numbers are going to present an interesting situation, I'd say, for the Federal Reserve in the coming year because, as you remember from our reporting, the Fed was getting ready to do a lot of aggressive rate cuts. over the next few years. And we saw the beginning of that happen kind of prior to the election and kind of just after.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
But now as Trump's policies are expected to contribute to higher prices, and this is how you can kind of separate the BS, the bluster, the messaging from what's actually happening. You see how the actual, how the feds are reacting, how the economic experts are reacting. because these policies are expected to contribute to higher prices.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Markets aren't expecting the next Federal Reserve rate cut to come now before June, despite the fact that we've had this better than expected economic data. So there's my economic update. That's where things stand. That's where things are heading. Obviously, things could change, but we always think it's important to bring you the latest updates as we have them. Thank you to NetSuite by Oracle.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
That was the NetSuite by Oracle Know Your Numbers Minute. Do you know your own numbers for your business? Download NetSuite's ultimate KPI checklist right now at netsuite.com slash Midas.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
People seem to like the puppy idea, I gotta say.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
confident that the puppy stream is going to get more than any inauguration stream so that's really what i want to know could we get more like if we look at the midas touch puppy inauguration stream and then we compare it to like msnbc yeah name your name name your stream can we get more viewers on videos of puppies and ben could come in and narrate the puppies too and do some voiceovers you know tell you what's going on with the pups right they're super adorable super cute
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Could we get more views? Just an idea, folks. Just an idea.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Well, he basically replicated the photo. I want to be clear. It's not the same exact photo, but he basically replicated the post.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
It's okay. There's more. We'll get into more of that after. But that's it for me for now. I'm excited to get into the news. Jordy, how's it going by you?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
I love Maple Mighty. I've also seen people, because we have a lot of people in Canada who listen to and watch the show, which is super cool. We've obviously been entering Canadian politics a bit and covering Canada, and we will in this episode as well. I also saw the Maple Midas, which I really like as well. I love our Canadian fans. I love all of our fans.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Yeah, I thought this was a powerful clip. And I think President Biden is obviously, he's always very deliberate in his language. And so, you know, these warnings carry a lot of weight to me when he says these things. I think we need to take it to heart. So earlier today, President Biden was speaking.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
He gave a farewell address as commander-in-chief to the United States military, and he gave them this message.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Our Canadian fans have been so awesome, so welcoming as we do the coverage. So shout out, Canada.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
This was not part of the job not too long ago. It wasn't you had to be a social media influencer yourself in addition to being a governor or a president. But that's where we are now. And you could tell it's effective, quite frankly, exactly because of what Speaker Johnson there – Speaker Johnson responded –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
That was a response to one of the clips that Brian Tyler Cohen, Brian Tyler Cohen, by the way, did a fantastic interview with Governor Newsom. And I think it's very smart that Governor Newsom is doing these interviews on site and is getting the message out to people in unique ways. It's one of the things that folks need to be doing. It's one of the things that Republicans have excelled at.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
And so now that Speaker Mike Johnson, Elon Musk, these people are seeing that, oh, shit, Democrats are wising up. Look at them going on, getting their message out in ways that they're supposed to be the way we've been doing. They're like, oh, no, no, no, that's our thing. You're not allowed to do that. That's what we do.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
And so now we're going to demean you for doing exactly what you need to be doing in this era because we don't want you to counter our bullshit. We don't want you to counter our lies or disinformation. We want to be able to do this and just run
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
over you with these lies every single day while you're out there trying to do your job but newsom realized you know i'm talking he's like i'm talking to people out there these first few days and they're coming to me and they're saying uh oh this is to uh to form a uh the democratic cabal pedophile ring and all and he was like where are you getting this stuff from like what are you even talking about right now and they would be like twitter elon musk you know and that's the problem with this with this new ecosystem
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
these lies spread so quickly and i think yeah i've even made the mistake in the past of thinking that this was insulated into this online bubble the fact is these lies go beyond that bubble they reach normal people and by the way people who are pretty smart people i hear echo all out of these lies It gets to them. They think it's fact. They then spread it.
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They tell it to their friends, their family. Next thing you know, there's a whole large section of the population that believes these lies are the truth no matter how outrageous they are, no matter where they started from because they even lose where they – people don't know this started with Donald Trump or started with the –
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
They just know the information that their friend told them that this is what's happening, even when it's the complete opposite of the truth. Like I saw this post that was saying that Gavin Newsom was trying to – this is all part of Gavin Newsom's plot to sell off the land to speculators on the cheap so that he could give all the land away in Los Angeles to these speculators.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
was actually like when you actually played the clip that they were referencing it was gavin newsom saying the opposite that he wanted to make sure that the people of the city were protected from vultures trying to swoop in and take their property it was the up gavin newsom signed like an executive order right to that point but then maga then attacks him and says well now you're screwing over the people because they should be able to sell yeah
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
And let's face it, all of this right now is also coming from a place where Republicans are looking ahead in politics. They're looking to 2028. They see that Governor Newsom is clearly going to be one of the top contenders for the Democratic nomination. They view this as a moment where they could weaken him politically. And we can Democrats politically in the state of California and nationally.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
That is part of this whole plan. It's sick. It's devious. It's cynical. It's in the middle of a crisis where people are suffering. And it truly hits home for me and all of us here because we are living in that. Well, not you, Jordi, but me and Ben. and so many people who work with us live in this city, live in this state, and it is just so abhorrent to see this kind of behavior.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
But all in all, watching this, I actually think that Gavin Newsom has done a remarkable job. I think he has risen to this occasion. I think despite all the shit that they've thrown at him, that Newsom has proven himself to be a very effective leader in a time of crisis. I think he's been very effective at getting the truth out. I think he's been very effective at
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
consoling people in this state and the city. I think he's been very good at kind of telling people where we go next from here, dealing with the crisis in real time and being an effective communicator. And that is one of the reasons why MAGA hates him so much. That is one of the reasons why they try to spread all of this crap about him. And I'll definitely defend him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
I think that he's doing a fantastic job during a very difficult time. And shame on the people. And by the way, I'm not saying that anyone is above reproach. I'm not saying that anybody is beyond receiving criticism. But what they are doing to Newsom right now is possibly even more than what they've done to Biden over the past few years in a truncated time period.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
The lies they are spreading, the disinfo they are throwing at this guy, the way they are doing this in the middle of a crisis, it is absolutely vile. Vile stuff, inexcusable stuff. But thankfully, I think he's equipped well to handle the situation and the climate.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
If you're not reading Ron's recaps of minusplus.com every day, you're missing out. I'm just going to be honest with you. You're missing out. You're missing out. You got to read Ron's recaps. It's today in politics bulletins that come out every day.
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MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
they are fantastic and i think i followed the news all day sometimes i look at these recaps and i go i didn't even know half of these things happened oh and we're also doing ad free episodes of the midas touch podcast we release them the following day on the midas plus as well so check that out make sure you also subscribe on audio to the audio podcast so wherever the midas touch podcast is available on audio even if you don't like listening to audio podcasts and you always get the video
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
I got to say, this shocked me. I'm not going to lie, Ben, this really surprised me because like you said, usually you're in this period and you think you're having this honeymoon period where your ratings are going to be high. And some of the initial approval polls of Trump were in the positive territory. I mean, some of the best polls that he's received.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
And by the way, while being in the positive territory, still lower historically than most presidents, if not all presidents when they actually enter office, but positive nonetheless. So it's been interesting to see over the past few weeks that these numbers have shifted so strongly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
And I think it's because folks are finally, or already rather, seeing what a Trump administration means and are seeing that a Trump administration is quite literally an administration for the billionaires, for the oligarchs. So I'll pull up this poll, Ben, while you speak about it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Do you notice, by the way, that everything that he says, like the whole thing in the beginning, right, was Doge, right? We're going to create this department of government efficiency, which is like a fake pseudo department. And then the first hint that this wasn't going to be super efficient was him assigning two people to run Doge, two people run the departments. So we had two people run it.
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Not very efficient. Now it seems like every announcement, he's just making government bigger. I don't know if people who consider themselves conservative realize the irony of this. We already have departments that collect tariffs. That's already a thing that we have. The Custom Service, the Custom and Border Patrol, they handle tariffs. So now Donald Trump wants to put a duplicative...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
department in the government thereby making the us government even larger just doesn't sound super efficient but what i've noticed about a lot of the things that trump says is that and i don't mean to sound demeaning to people but a lot of things probably sound really good to really dumb people and i and i've noticed the people the people who get excited about this are always the same kind of suspects and i see them on the other apps too i see them on tick tock i see them on the various
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
Exactly. Gulf of America, bro. We got golf. I'm like, this is the dumbest shit on the planet. What are we doing here? People like and you know what? That's the weapon of mass distraction. Right. Because like the dog in the movie Up, Donald Trump is able to go.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS before DAY 1 - 1/16/25
gulf of america gulf of america wave the keys where it's a squirrel scroll over there and then his followers like the ones i'm speaking about they go squirrel and they look over there and then meanwhile all the stuff is damaging their lives raising prices raising mortgage rates really screwing them over while they're they're pumping their chests and pumping their fists over the fact that he wants to rename something gulf of america or has created another department that is useless and has no point i mean it's the same thing every time i think this every time the
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Everything, it's so stupid. Everything he does is just so dumb and counterproductive. It's like the definition of bad governing. And ironically, it's the complete opposite of efficiency for this administration that is pushing this whole idea of government efficiency. We are just seeing move after move meet the backlash that it should be getting.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
We are seeing move after move just kind of backfiring on him, making the problems worse, crashing the markets. ruining the economy. And I was thinking back when I was watching that disastrous Oval Office meeting today, Donald Trump's comments about NATO from just the other day. I remember when Trump was asked, do you think NATO would defend the United States?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Or he was asked something to that effect. Trump basically said, no. He said, I'm not so sure about that, actually. Now, looking back at that, I think what Trump was getting at was if I invade Greenland or if I invade Canada, would the rest of NATO come to my defense, which is not how that works. It's a defensive alliance, not a go invade your neighbors and invade other members of NATO alliance.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
And so I think that's when Donald Trump demands loyalty from people like NATO. I think he is demanding that they follow him into these horrific plans. And he's trying to bully them. He's trying to bully our allies every single day. It's tariffs on, tariffs off. Oh, now we're going to do this 200% tariff. This is what he woke up and did this morning.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
200% tariff on all alcohol, all liquor and wine and champagne coming from the EU. That was his big plan, which then sent the markets into another nosedive. It's just one erratic move after one erratic move.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Just think about this as an example of the waste of Doge and the waste of what the government is doing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
They spent all this money and time sending migrants from the United States to Guantanamo Bay, a military prison, which should not exist in the first place, but sending them to a military prison where the most suspected, most violent terrorists, basically, people on the terrorist watch, these are the people who are down there, to Guantanamo Bay, sending migrants alongside them.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
And even at the peak of Guantanamo Bay, in I believe around 2003, Guantanamo came after the 9-11 attacks, even at its peak, it held about 650 detainees. Currently, as of right now, basically, there's around 15 detainees, 15 terror suspects being held at Guantanamo Bay.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
And Donald Trump advertised, Donald Trump announced that he wanted to have 30,000 people in this area that at its peak was only able to handle 650 and was currently handling 15. They spent all this money. Remember, there were all those reports about the military planes, which cost way more also than the planes that they were originally flying.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
um ultimately all they ended up doing was making these propaganda videos getting their headlines and it was just a complete what a stain on american history for us to even do this in the first place oh yeah they also made that completely sick and twisted asmr video you remember that asmr video where they had the migrants and chains and they posted a video as if they were like animals
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
It's just some of the most horrific stuff that's all about making a cops style TV show for the American public to act like we're doing something when they're not even doing anything.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
also known as zombie cells. Old and worn out and not serving a useful function for our health anymore, but they're taking up space and nutrients from our healthy cells. For me, that's meant higher energy levels, faster recovery, and feeling years younger. And it's made with science-backed ingredients, totally non-GMO, vegan, and gluten-free, so you know you're putting quality into your body.
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MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Plus, there's a 100-day money-back guarantee, so there is zero risk in trying it. So if you want to resist aging at the cellular level, go to qualialife.com slash Midas for up to 50% off and use code Midas at checkout for an additional 15% off. That's Q-U-A-L-I-A life.com slash Midas, M-E-I-D-A-S for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks to Qualia for sponsoring today's episode.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Yeah, and this whole notion that Ukraine needs to apologize, Canada needs to apologize, they should be more respectful, it's so dystopian and Orwellian and just the opposite of reality. It's like, here we are as the United States of America under Trump punching Canada in the face, just sucker punching them for no reason. And then we're like, say thank you, say thank you, say thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
When you see also just the phrasing that Trump uses online, you see this continued. And by the way, I want to be clear, this is the language of an abuser, textbook abuser language that Donald Trump is using. And so, you know, let me go through those tweets or those truth social posts from Trump that we brought up quickly at the top. Because it speaks to this exact issue.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Then we'll get back into some of the other things that Trump's advisors are saying. But you go to this one right here where it says, Trump says, the U.S. doesn't have free trade. We have stupid trade. The entire world is ripping you off. Bro, you made the trade agreement. This is your trade agreement. The stupid trade, if you think it's stupid, then you think you are stupid. Okay, how about that?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Let's go to this. I think this is incredibly revealing when Donald Trump says, the European Union, one of the most hostile and abusive tariff and taxing authorities in the world. Okay. Let me just stop right there. So when Donald Trump does his tariffs, they're big, beautiful tariffs. Tariffs are the best tool in the world. Everybody loves tariffs. Tariffs are so smart.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
But when the EU or Canada or Mexico or whoever reciprocates with tariffs of their own, all of a sudden it is, quote, hostile. and abusive. Like the hypocrisy here is just out of control and people are suffering for it. As we see with the markets crashing, going to their lowest levels, the S&P 500, by the way, is now officially in correction territory. That's when it comes 10% off of its record.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
And not only is it in correction territory, it's the seventh fastest correction of a market in the S&P 500 since 1929. Do you know what year 1929 was? The year of the Great Depression. That's the volatility. That represents the crashes that we are seeing right now in the stock market as Donald Trump's advisors go on TV like these North Korean propagandists and say, everything's so great.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Everyone's going to get gold cards. You're all going to be rich. This is the golden age. You're just going to have to suck up some pain. That's what's happening.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
No, no, you're right. It's a total crash. These graphs are absolutely devastating, and I don't have these ones necessarily here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
But when you look at, for example, the graph comparing the beginning of the Trump administration, these 50 or so days compared to President Biden's first year tracking that, you see Biden goes up, up, up, up, up, and you see Trump goes up very slightly from the Biden economy still and then just crashes hard. I think every single day folks are looking at their 401ks.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
They're looking at all this stuff. I always say stuff like this, but it's like if they were honest that they really wanted to cut spending and they were like, we got to tighten our belts and we were doing it because the country was really in bad shape, I would understand it. But as Bernie Sanders often points out at these rallies, we are the richest country on earth.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
We were the fastest growing country ever. of all modern countries, period, under President Biden. And Donald Trump has just decided to take that growth and ruin it for no reason. And when you look under the hood at what they are doing, you see all the chaos that's being caused by Doge, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
You're seeing all these hardworking federal employees lose their jobs, be denigrated by the Trump administration, be told that they're worthless, be told that they are leeches on the system despite their hard work.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
when you see them messing with the social security systems and these doge kids going through social security yesterday they had to reverse a policy where they were taking away the ability for social security recipients to reach the social security office by the phone and then they got a lot of backlash had to redo that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
all this chaos being pushed into the system, you would say, well, if they're doing all that, I would at least hope there are some savings going on here, right? Maybe they're trying to really get rid of the big stuff. But the fact is, they're not. These are all things that are very actually tiny in the budget when they are going through these things.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
but they are enough to cause chaos in the markets. They are enough to cause families to be devastated, people to lose their livelihoods.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
And at the same time, they are trying to push through that bill, which would give $4.5 trillion in tax cuts to the richest Americans, which would more than undo any amount of paltry savings that they are trying to advertise, even in the fake Doge numbers that are listed on their website.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
They wanted to say, we're going to make $100 bazillion. $100 bazillion.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Yeah, the whole thing's a scam. Anytime I hear Letnick speak, my skin crawls. There are certain people, every time you watch this guy, I don't understand how even a Trump supporter doesn't watch that guy and go like, oh, you're scamming me right now. You are trying to rip me off. It's the craziest propaganda. It is so, so incredibly obvious.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
But I think you see even throughout these communities because people start understanding this stuff when it hits home for them. And so you may be a Wall Street guy who backed Trump. Once you see what's happening to the markets, I think you quickly start to rethink if he's really a business genius, which I don't know how you got duped by in the beginning, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
You could support Trump and be from an immigrant community in Florida. Once your family is being deported, you know, I think you have a bit of a different opinion as to what's going on. And we are seeing various communities all across the United States right now having to deal with Donald Trump and what he's doing. It's hitting people on a very personal level.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
We saw a story the other day about a federal employee who was a Trump supporter, and she was laid off, and she didn't think that she would ever be somebody who would be affected by Donald Trump trying to make the government smaller. But it's every day more stories like that. But that's why we need to keep spreading the message. I will say the tides are certainly turning.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
um we're seeing the people rise up and that's exactly what we need people uh to be rising up standing up to exactly what is going on um because it's clear you know you're not going to be able to rely on politicians all the time um as we've seen in various forms so we got to take it and ask what could we be doing uh for our country at this time and so you know thanks for thanks for being here and doing your part to spread the word
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Yeah, no, it's a total disgrace. And as you said, we're in a moment where we need fighters. And that's why I think it gets really disheartening for people when we see things like Senator Chuck Schumer out there, the Democratic minority leader in the US Senate, come out and say that now he is going to vote for the CR because the CR wouldn't be as bad as a government shutdown.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
The United States Congress right now has very few tools that they are able to use, the Democrats in Congress against the Republican Party. This right here was one of them. And I think one of the most kind of painful things about this also was the sort of head fake yesterday when he came out and he said that he was going to oppose this bill and that the Democratic Party was united in opposition.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
like don't don't lie to the people right if if you're going to fight fight um but it's almost worse to do what he did here which is lead people on say that they were going to basically play this game of chicken with the republican party ideally force them to take out the bad things in this continuing resolution remain united on a plan to keep the government open for 30 days as democrats he basically made that whole thing up
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
and just decided to cave today and opened up the caucus to do the same if they so choose so we'll see how the vote goes the vote is scheduled for for friday but now that schumer is saying that i think it changes the calculation from what we saw yesterday but you know we need people right now who are built for this moment we need people who are who are fighters right now
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
And we need people who are messengers. You need people who are going to get out there and are going to be able to really appropriately say the stakes of what is going on here and be clear here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Because even in the latest polls, there was a poll from Quinnipiac that was released earlier, I believe it was them, that said when you added up the amount of people who blame Donald Trump for a potential government shutdown,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
and blame the Republican Party for a government shutdown, it was around 52 or 53% of the total people blamed one of them for the shutdown, when the number who blamed the Democrats was 32%. So that's just an initial data point right there. Now imagine if you actually explained to your constituents
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
that you are standing up to not allow Doge to continue to make cuts to the American people's programs, that you are going to stand up and not accept this budget that is being forced down by the Republican Party without the inputs of the Democrats giving Musk, giving Trump free reign to do what they want. Just stand up, just fight, and show people that you're going to fight.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
That's what people want right now, and I think that's the source of so much frustration. At the same time, that's why I like seeing the people rising up at these town halls and doing these things,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Because ultimately, people need to take it into their own hands and make their voices heard and show their frustration, no matter who their frustration is aimed against, whether it's aimed at, honestly, anybody at this point. You should be making your voices heard.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Well said, Ben. Shout out to the Midas Mighty.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
a russian nesting doll of lies uh no pun intended or maybe pun intended in in this case um but you know you know all their arguments are are garbage because like if they had an honest good reasoning for the things that they were doing they would just be truthful with the american people but they get on tv they have to act like north korean propagandists saying this is the best 50 days we've ever had oh all hail glorious leader they have to make up that uh for
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
They keep going back to we have the worst trade agreements ever with Mexico and Canada. Whoever did these trade agreements with Mexico and Canada really screwed Americans over badly. And you just want to jump out of your chair and go, Donald, this is Donald Trump's deal. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. This is quite literally the USMCA, which Donald Trump negotiated himself.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
Everybody is abiding by this deal. Nothing has changed regarding this deal. And the excuses surrounding the fentanyl are quite frankly, completely made up. They're made up excuses. And you know they're made up, especially so because these are on Canada too. And Canada, what, Ben? There's like 40 pounds of fentanyl that comes to the Canadian border.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
I think more fentanyl comes from the United States and goes to Canada than the opposite way around. And also they try to cite the trade deficit with Canada when, I believe if we remove energy, it's actually a trade surplus we have with Canada, especially in manufacturing. So everything that they are saying are just lies. They are gaslighting the American people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
it doesn't really seem like donald trump has any sort of long-term plan they keep having to reverse their major policies that they are putting forward they do the big showing to get the headline they do a big showing to try to scare another country the other countries don't back down trump looks at the market sees it falling panics makes a decision that actually makes everything worse and then it's just an endless repeat of this cycle that we are seeing every single day i feel like i'm waking up in in the movie groundhog day
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
um reliving just donald trump's madness as he doubles down triples down quadruples down on these failed policies and the american people right now are picking up on it you're seeing across the board donald trump's approval rating just absolutely sinking and on key issues like trump's approval on the economy on the new ipsos poll 51 disapprove 39 approve regarding the U.S.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
making Canada the 51st state. 80% disagree. 17% agree. Got to imagine that 17% is the most rabid of the MAGA. It's a good idea for the U.S. to charge higher tariffs on imported goods if even if prices increase. 53% disagree. I could go through poll after poll after poll. Most Americans disapprove of Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 3/14/25
and are now disapproving of Donald Trump at the fastest rate and at the biggest rate in American history for a president at this stage of his presidency. So, so long, honeymoon. That has long passed. Now it's just the no pain, no gain theory of running the government, as Tommy Tuberville said, but all the American people right now are feeling is the pain.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Can I read one thing before you read this? Let me read this, okay? Before Ben reads what Donald Trump said in this Time Magazine article that was released today, here is what Donald Trump said in September in front of his followers. And he said this at multiple rallies, many rallies, many events. Many phone calls to Fox News. Here's just one example from September.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Quote, vote Trump and your incomes will soar. Your net worth will skyrocket. Your energy costs and grocery prices will come tumbling down. With that in mind, Ben.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I at least appreciate that they didn't edit it for clarity. He didn't answer it for clarity. As he said it, because it's one of those ramblings that it's nearly impossible to read. But I mean, just a stunning admission right there, right? And you see how he's already trying to sort of get out of the responsibility of the very problems that he is going to cause.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And those same issues that he wrote to Victory, by the way, the same issues that have been improving, year after year after year, and many of those issues, including especially the supply chains that he was talking about, that were completely devastated by COVID and Donald Trump's handling of COVID.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
He's once again trying to put that blame on the Biden administration, who actually went in and fixed the problem. I mean, people really seriously, and I know it's a late message, but we've said it all throughout the campaign also. People really don't remember what it was like in January 2021. People really are unable to put themselves back in that place. But things were grim, folks.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Things were very grim. There was many people dying a day. Everything was completely falling apart. Companies were decimated. People were out of work. Things were as bad as it gets when President Biden dies. You remember that first Time magazine? I think back to that, the cover. It was President Biden.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
It was that desk that was filled with papers and just the White House and utter chaos, such a complete and total mess. And I forgot what the message was, but it was something like his turn to clean up or something to that effect. I'd have to look it up. Um, but, but that's how the Biden administration began.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And then you look at the metrics that we have here, that if you looked at these things on paper, you'd be like, oh, of course that guy would win a second term or, you know, whoever his successor is, because this is undeniably the best in the world. And could things be better? Of course. But, you know, the hole that we had to dig out of this Trump hole was absolutely devastating.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And and Trump managed to ride his own destruction back to the White House. I think it's the the irony of this entire thing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
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Use code MIDAS to get 10% off your next order at bookshop.org. That's code MIDAS, M-E-I-D-A-S, to get 10% off at bookshop.org. All right, let's talk about NAD+. It's an every living cell in your body, and it helps keep you young by repairing damage, detoxifying, and giving you energy. But between age 20 and 50, your NAD Plus levels are cut in half.
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Thanks to Qualia for sponsoring today's episode.
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Yeah. Can I just get serious for a second? I just want to honestly, I know Bezos is going through some hard times. I know Zuckerberg, they've fallen on some hard times. Just being strangled, strangled by the regulation. So I just want to send my heart, my thoughts and my prayers to them during these very difficult times. I
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I'm so sorry that you've gained hundreds of billions of dollars during this administration, but I maybe wanted more. I don't know. I know times are tough, but you'll get through it, guys. You'll get through it, okay? I believe you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Yeah, it's so incredibly stressful because the last thing on the planet I'm going to say is that the Democrats are perfect and that everything they do is great. I'm not gonna say that. But what I will say is at least a majority of the time, they're at least trying to push the country in the right direction.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And they are at the whims of the obstruction of the Republicans who have brilliantly figured out this plan to obstruct and not only to obstruct, but to use the means of communication to propagandize and to convince people that Democrats are the cause of your problems. To convince people that transgender people are the cause of your problems.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
To convince you that gay people are the cause of your problems. Migrants are the cause of your problems. I could keep going down the list, but they have devised and executed this scheme quite brilliantly. the Republicans, where you have so much of the country, quite frankly, going, oh, Democrats, Republicans, oh, they're all the same. It's just not true.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And I understand that folks are looking for a bit more radical change right now when it comes to certain things, that people are pissed off that these programs are not working for the American people. And I totally get it. And I totally agree. But you have the Republicans, quite frankly, trying to take us backwards at every step. Do you think, Ben,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Do you think that these Trump voters, many of whom are working class, do you think that one of the priorities they wanted Donald Trump to tackle on day one is to remove the IRS's direct file system that made filing taxes easy for them? I can guarantee you that is not something that they were eager about, right? That's not something that they were hoping for with this administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Do you think they wanted billionaires to get exclusivity to the government, to get extra rights for the government? I just don't think that that's the energy that we're seeing in this country right now. I think people were hoodwinked in many ways into believing that Donald Trump is a guy who's going to help the working class. And I think as we see day in and day out,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Donald Trump doing everything he can to empower these billionaires. And then this billionaire group, this billionaire oligarch group of people like Jeff Bezos, of people like Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk. You see Bezos and Musk now donating each a million dollars. to Donald Trump's inaugural fund, just kissing the ring like this, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And you start seeing what's going... It becomes so obvious, I think, to me, who is kind of in control and who is trying to get special treatment and who wants a seat at the table in this administration. And it has never been more transparent who this administration is for. And I can guarantee you that so many of even these Trump voters, that this is not what they were voting for.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
They were not voting for the billionaires, but we all knew that this was going to be an administration for the billionaires. Hopefully, as things progress, they will soon find out. They will reach that fine. I know some of them have. I've seen a lot of comments. I've seen a lot of reports on this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
But I think a lot more of them are going to start to realize, oh, wait, why is Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos and Elon, why are these people making decisions about my life? Wait, they get priority over me while they tell me that I have to cut back? Wait, Elon Musk is getting...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
new grants and new government programs and new government contracts, but I need to cut down on my social security payments. And I'm not able to use this free government IRS filing service anymore because Intuit and TurboTax want me to use their service. And so they lobbied their friends in the Trump administration. That doesn't seem super fair. And reality is going to hit.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And when it hits, it's going to hit pretty hard.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I just want to do a quick compare though while we're on the subject of messaging because the one thing that I will say Trump is good at is he's marketing, right? He's good at getting the message out. He says things very kind of dumbed down and very clearly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And so I'll go back to that, the quote that we were speaking about at the beginning of this episode when Trump was speaking about bringing down prices. Now he's admitting that that was a total lie, but this was his comment from September. I read it earlier, but he said, vote Trump and your incomes will soar. Your net worth will skyrocket.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Your energy costs and grocery prices will come tumbling down. It's a very direct affirmative statement for people to hear. And so the folks who bought into that were like, oh, that's exactly what I want to hear.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Now think about comments from Vice President Kamala Harris, where she couched it in this terminology that would sometimes feel like it came from a marketing firm, like a professional or a PR firm, when she said, I'm going to create an opportunity economy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Like people don't really understand what opportunity economy means, but people understand what your income will soar, your net worth will soar, your prices will come down. Like that's something that people understand. And I think Democrats in general need to kind of take that lesson and they need to be as direct as that. That's why, you know, even we in the past when we were speaking about
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
things like the Inflation Reduction Act and all these bills, we said, let's stop calling them by these lofty names and let's just say what the thing is, right? Like Biden's doing right now. Say, I'm going to cap your prescription drug prices at $2,000 a year. I'm going to negotiate with the drug companies. Your drug prices will come down. Your health will go up.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Just be very straightforward about it and stop couching it in this political language because we need to be direct with the people. All right. We got a lot more to talk about, Ben. I know we'll be right back after this break. Do not go anywhere. See you in a second. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. Hey, I gotta be honest with myself, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's the blame for your rough next day. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make Z Biotics your first drink of the night, drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Every time I have pre-alcohol before drinks, I notice a difference the next day.
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
For example, after a fun night out with friends at like a local bar or wherever we go, I could still get up the next morning and hit the gym. And I'll admit, I was skeptical at first, but I tried it at a dinner party with some friends. The next morning, I felt great, ready to tackle the day, ready to do more videos here at the Midas Touch Network.
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I kept hearing about pre-alcohol and wondered what it was actually like. Now that I've tried it, I get the hype. Plus with their GMO technology, ZBiotics is continuing to create probiotics that tackle the challenges of modern living. Go to zbiotics.com slash Midas to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use code Midas at checkout.
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
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Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Something I want to add to our editor-in-chief, Ron Filipkowski, every single day during the week.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
is doing these breakdowns these recaps of the day on our midasplus.com that's our sub stack and you should check him out he releases them around uh sometimes like around 4 p.m or 5 p.m a pacific time each day and it's like you could not watch the news all day and then read ron's recaps and you'll be all caught up and me as somebody who is a news junkie
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
and is tuned in to everything throughout the entire day. Even I, reading Ron's recaps, I'm always finding new nuggets of information that I haven't seen before. I mean, he really sees it all. And I've read hundreds of these kind of newsletter recaps in my day. I got to say, Ron's is easily, by far and away, the best, easy read, easy to digest. You can check it out. It's at MidasPlus.com.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I post every day in the evening. Go check it out.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Canadian Parliament talking about us.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
a good dad what a good you guys are both such good dads great to be here uh midas mighty um what a week as always the news certainly uh is not slowing down anytime soon and ben as you discuss the things that we're going to talk about on this episode as you break that down i can't help but think that those individuals who voted for donald trump and a republican congress are soon going to learn firsthand
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Like Doug Ford was like – I think he said like, I'm MAGA. He was like the number one Trump fan in Canada saying that he would support everything that he did.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
what that actually means for themselves. And I think as we've seen this kind of anger that's been out there in the public about certain things over the last few weeks, I don't think we see that folks want less of the government helping them out. I don't think they want less health care. I don't think they want less ability to get their prescription drugs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Yeah. And I also want to emphasize the fact that when you look at the Saudis and what they're doing there with Eric Trump and you see all this, you realize that this whole kind of billionaire group that comes together, it's not just limited to the United States. I just want to make sure that that's clear.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
um the country is for sale right now to the highest bidder anywhere in the world and that is one of the issues that we are currently facing um and it is so obvious who this government is for it is so obvious who is running this government under donald trump it in fact could not be clearer and when you see these world leaders speaking out like doug ford like
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Dude, like literally I pulled up some articles about Doug Ford from before the past few weeks. And here's just a couple headlines from the Washington Post in 2018. Doug Ford could bring Trumpism to Ontario. New York Times 2018. Will Canada elect a tin pot Northern Trump? This is from a YouTube channel. MAGA hat wearing Doug Ford supporter is all cringe. That's something making fun of him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Here's Bloomberg, Canada's Donald Trump wins over, Canada's Donald Trump. Well, how did that work out for you, Doug Ford? How did that work out for you? But it's good to see that there are people out there who are standing up to Trump like this. And I hope to see that sort of clarity and more of our leaders here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I think far too often these past few weeks, it has felt like the United States has not even had an opposition party. It has felt that a lot of these Democrats have simply rolled over. And this is a time where they need to be loud about their values. This is a time where they need to really be making their case.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
This is a time where they need to be listening to the American people and their concerns and say, listen, I hear you on health care. And here is our plan on how to move forward. Here's how I want to get health care to all Americans. Listen, I hear you on the housing crisis. Here's the Democratic plan. And they need to speak loudly about these plans and then have the Republicans oppose it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Have the Republicans say, now we don't want to give that to the people. We instead want to give our giveaways to the billionaires. Now we don't want to help housing. And in fact, we want to just help the billionaires to buy up more housing and use them as commodities and grow their wealth that way. We prefer it that way. Put these Republicans on the defense.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I don't think they want billionaires to get everything. And I think they're soon and quickly finding out that Donald Trump is building this oligarchy around him and that he is doing a making a government campaign. That is for the billionaires and by the billionaires. And that is what we're going to see. That's where we're going to see the results.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I don't know why this is so hard and I don't know why there are so many running away from this or worse. rushing to kind of embrace Donald Trump and embrace the people around him. It's simply not what you have to do. And frankly, I do not believe personally it's what the American people are looking for. The American people are looking for fighters.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
The American people are looking for people who are going to stand by them and stand up for their values, stand up for the things that they are screaming about. The American people are being quite clear, in my opinion, about the things that they want.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
now are you going to answer the call it's your time do it or don't do it but i hope that you do it i hope that you pick up on the message because it's coming through loud and clear
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And you already see Trump already backtracking on like every major promise that he made to folks that probably were the promises that helped get him elected. Like, I'm going to bring down prices. How many times have we heard Donald Trump say, and the prices are going to come tumbling down the day I get into office. They're going to come tumbling down. Now he's like, yeah, you know, about that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
As Elon Musk's net worth skyrockets from $200 billion to $400 billion since the election. That's what's happening while they're complaining about the volleyball player or whatever it is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
I'm not so sure. And now Trump, of course, always says we're gonna be respected on the global stage. And Ben, I love that we've been keeping track here of all of these world leaders who are actually standing up to Trump. I have to say, in many cases, stronger and more effectively than the leaders that we have here, unfortunately.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
But it's great to see these world leaders standing up to Trump and openly mocking him now, talking about Donald Trump saying we'd be respected. We are now back to being the laughingstock on the global stage. And it's a shame, but we're going to break it down. We're going to go through everything that's going on. I'll toss it over to you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Can I just translate that message for a second, the Trump post that you just read there? Trump is essentially saying that you could pollute the environment, you could destroy the United States, you could bypass all of our regulations. You could actually get an expedited path to bypass all of our regulations as long as you invest at least a billion dollars or more in the United States.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
It's quite literally the definition of selling out our country to billionaires. It's screw small business, screw any sort of regular kind of investors. These go into foreign investors, foreign persons, foreign corporations and saying, come invest in the United States and you don't even have to follow play by the rules as long as you have at least a billion dollars or more.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
This is just the very foundation of the oligarchy that he is creating. And it's no wonder that somebody like Elon Musk is like, oh, this is awesome. This is so cool. Elon Musk, I believe today it was announced that he had $400 billion in net worth. Just think about that sum of money. And no matter how much you think about that sum of money, it's an unfathomable, obscene amount of money.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
It's impossible, I think, for anyone's brain to truly wrap around just how much that is. But Donald Trump is saying, if you're Elon Musk, if you're Mark Zuckerberg, if you're Jeff Bezos, if you're one of these foreign billionaires in Saudi Arabia, whatever country, we don't care. As long as you have money, you have a voice in my government. Working class, we don't need you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Regular kind of companies, small businesses, we do not need you. That is what Trump is saying with these posts. and they're just being so explicit about it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
And when Eric Trump is just flaunting these investments in Saudi Arabia, I mean, you just think now going back to past presidencies like Jimmy Carter with his peanut farm, you think through the lengths that people had to go to divest from their businesses, no matter how big or small. And this was even an issue back in 2016, right, Ben?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
People actually tried to push, they tried to pressure Donald Trump didn't work, to divest from his businesses. Remember, Trump made up that he had a plan. I think this is one of the times Trump brought out the fake sheets of paper and says, here's my plan to divest from my businesses. All BS, 100% BS. Well, no one's even asking him this time around. But why aren't we asking him?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Trump Instantly BETRAYS His Voters…Mocked by WORLD!!!
Why are we just accepting the fact that he's allowed to be intermingled in all of these foreign business deals that are going to have an impact on the way that he governs? It's just absolutely insane, Ben.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
It's also embarrassing. And, you know, it was so quintessential Trump and Trump organization and Trump administration, what we saw yesterday and today, because, you know, all the Trump propagandists, right? The Caroline Levitz, the Nutlick, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Nutlick. Okay. Got it. Okay. Now that I know that's okay. So you got, you know, Levitt, you got Nutlick, you got, you know, all these propagandists around Donald Trump and they immediately had to spin this. We're going to sum this soon, but they were like, it's the art of the deal. Everything's amazing. wow, what a brilliant negotiator.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And then they'd be like, so was this done because Donald Trump was concerned about people panicking over the markets or the bond markets? And they're like, no, absolutely not. Had nothing to do with this whatsoever. This was all part of Donald Trump's grand strategy and y'all just didn't see it coming. And then Trump comes out and goes, yeah, people were yippy and people were scared.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And the bond market, yeah, I was watching the bond market. and just steps on all their talking points that they came out with initially, because they're just making it up as they go. This is like a North Korean regime right now in the United States of America. It's just so frightening.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
and china negotiating for electric vehicles right we see china and australia talking we see europe and canada everyone the wild thing is people are coming to the negotiating table it's not with us they're going in the negotiating table with china and all these other countries are getting closer with one another because the united states is no longer a reliable trade partner that was one thing that the world could always count on with us
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
and we had all of these free trade agreements with the world and now we violated all those agreements why would anybody ever trust us again as long as trump is in so brett if i'm making this case to the jury right in my former role as a litigator my question is so is this intentional malice
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Whether I'm wandering through a new city, hiking a mountain trail, or out for a spontaneous outing, my Vessi weekend sneakers always have my back. They're waterproof, so no need to worry about those unexpected puddles or a sudden downpour. I stay dry no matter the weather. For those watching, check these out. They're dope. My Vessies quickly became my go-to shoe for nearly every scenario.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
I love them so much. What I love about them is how lightweight they are. I could wear them all day and they never slow me down. They're sleek enough for a casual day out, but sturdy enough for outdoor adventures, making them the perfect versatile shoe for all kinds of travel. Plus, they're made from sustainable materials, so I feel good about my impact on the environment while I explore. Durable?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
One of the cool things about the show is he got a bunch of new dads on the show. I mean, not me, but you guys. And sometimes you got to be parents. I think that's cool.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
yeah this is an administration that's in complete disarray let's face it this is an administration that's in collapse but administrations in collapse can do a whole lot of damage and that's what we are seeing here and i don't want to diminish how dangerous this administration is but they are also very stupid and you could be two things at the same time you could be stupid
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
and dangerous they are dangerously stupid people who are leading us but they are leading us it's this dunning-kruger effect where they think they're these big geniuses they think that this is the best that like they think that they are actually experts in all of these things and they press on with these ill-advised plans whether it be tariffs whether it be signal gate whether it be all the various things that they are doing
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Literally nothing she said, Brett, was true. Nothing she said is true. I mean, like I was saying before, it sounds like it comes straight from North Korean propaganda. Like this is the stuff that they do that we used to mock here as a country. And now it's here in the United States of America.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
I know that press secretaries have always taken some liberties with the truth, but this is just another level. This is just disgraceful, disgusting propaganda. And she literally did this meme that's going around right now. It's almost like she saw the meme and imitated it. So it's I'm putting it up right here. You have Trump saying, I'm adding tariffs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Then the MAGA people go, this will create jobs. Then Trump says, I'm removing tariffs. Then the Trump people go, that's the art of the deal. Then Trump says, I'm adding back tariffs. People go, this will create jobs. Then he says, I'm removing the tariffs. The Trumpers go, art of the deal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
I want to say, if you're being intellectually honest about this, if tariffs are your thing, if you firmly believe in your heart of hearts that tariffs are the thing that's going to make America rich, it's going
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
make us all wealthy it's going to make us all have jobs manufacturers like just like just like the good when i think the good old days i say bring us back to seven stupid um so if in your heart of hearts you think that tariffs are the way to solve these problems
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
then why do you celebrate when donald trump pauses or removes any tariffs wouldn't that not be making us rich anymore isn't that canceling so-called liberation day like you're making a pitch that tariffs are the way to make this country successful and have long-term stability yet then you say oh no it's just a plan it's just a negotiating tool it can't be both so which is it
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
But it doesn't matter to these people because they are malleable and they just go with whatever the regime propaganda says. These are the people who for the past few years have been like, oh, you trust what the government says. You trust what the government says. And we had actual professionals running things. We knew the data can be trusted. What was that? Too boring.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
too boring right now these people are like oh the government's telling me that this is good okay government yes government yes all of a sudden these people are like love the government they love the federal government it's their favorite thing ever they love being lied to they love regurgitating the lies and it's just so pathetic in order to be a trump supporter right now in order to support
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
what is going on, you have to accept the fact that you're either a fool or that you're playing a manipulative game to try to trick other people because there's no objective or reasoning behind the things that Trump is doing and no objective experts or data or anything would come to the conclusion that any of this at all is good for the United States economy or for the global economy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
It seems like each one more and more designed to cause as much destruction as possible to the United States. At least that is the end result of it. We're certainly going to get into it all. It's great to be here with you guys. It's great to be here with the audience. For those watching live or for those listening on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, thank you for tuning in to the Midas Touch Podcast.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And there's one other thing I do want to flag because, like we said before, we want to make sure we're staying on top of all the conversations despite all of the various kind of distractions and everything that Donald Trump is doing. It's hard to keep track of them all.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
But something that we need to watch right now is that Donald Trump has basically asked the Supreme Court to allow him to exert his authority over the Federal Reserve. And if Donald Trump is able to convince the Supreme Court to let him do this, he wants to ultimately fire somebody like the Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
If he thought we had markets instability now, just wait until Donald Trump removes the independence of the Federal Reserve, and all of a sudden, we no longer have that backing. We no longer have that faith, that trust in our system that the entire global economy relies upon it. That will be absolutely devastating if that's something that happens.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Jordy, what's the latest from you? I'm excited to get into the show tonight.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
By the way, Ben, you notice what Trump's been doing, too, throughout this process? He throws things out. And sorry, you were in such a good flow. I hate to interrupt you. But Trump always floats these things out that he knows people on his base will like to see, and then he does the opposite, right? So in this case, remember, there were all these stories.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Trump got so many headlines a few weeks ago. Trump's going to be the first president to decrease the Department of Defense budget. And all of his supporters were like, heck, yeah, that's what we want. Yes, they're finally going after the defense budget. We've been asking for this for years. Audit the Pentagon, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Well, now those same people are like, yes, trillion dollar military budget, the first one we've ever had. They just go with the wind. They just go with whatever Donald Trump is saying. But Trump throws those things out. He gets people to bite. He gets the news organizations to write these headlines on mainstream news. Then he does the complete opposite. He did the same thing with taxes.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
I mean, a few weeks ago, Trump, you know, they often do it through like sources, right? Like You know, I'm hearing that Doge is about to drop $5,000 checks for every American. So get ready, buckle up, get ready to get rich, folks. And they put that out there. It's usually not through like any sort of official form.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And then they're asked by it and they're like, oh, yes, we're looking, you know, we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. And they keep this con going. They did the same thing a few weeks ago where they said, Trump considering actually raising taxes on the wealthy. I saw a lot of headlines about that. Trump actually considering raising taxes on the wealthy. Well, we knew that was a scam ad.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Well, and now we see like with this GOP budget bill, we see this budget framework that has passed the House earlier. Now it's got to go into this reconciliation process. That doesn't mean the budget is in effect, but it's like the biggest spending bill imaginable. And it calls for like massive spending. It costs something like over $5 trillion. It's like four times bigger budget.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
spending than Biden's bill under COVID. It's like four times bigger than Donald Trump's first tax cut bill to the wealthy. And this extends and makes those tax cuts permanent for the wealthy while taking like $880 million out of Medicaid. It's like the most egregious spending bill imaginable. So I just don't ever want to hear this crap from these Republicans.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And I need everybody here to always push back and push back on the media that accepts the anchoring that Donald Trump and the Republican Party put forth when they say things like, oh yeah, we're the party of fiscal responsibility. And I see, I even read an article about this bill earlier. I forget which publication it's in, but one of the big ones. And they were like, the fiscal hawks
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
in the House Republicans presented this. I'm like, what does that mean? Fiscal hawks? This is the most bloated, most expensive bill that strips away key programs that people rely upon and gives massive giveaways to wealthy people and increases the military budget tremendously. Fiscal hawks? We just accept whatever the Republicans say. We just accept whatever Donald Trump says.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Donald Trump says this is a pause and everyone just goes, oh yes, this is a pause on everything. It's not. It's time that we actually have to like take a beat and like actually use language appropriately here and not just repeat what you think the framing is by the Republican Party.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Apologies to Carrot Top. Don't mean to compare it to Elon Musk, the most unfunny person on the planet. Elon wants to be liked so badly and wants to be funny.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
No offense. No harm, no foul. No harm, no foul. We still like you. We think so. I got to check. I got to do some research.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Yeah, and at the same time, they're doing all these moves that are just so anti-democratic and makes – I don't recognize our country anymore. I want to revise the statement that I made on the last episode of the Midas Touch podcast when I said we are in an authoritarian framework right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
and i want to go further with that because it's clear that we are in a full-blown autocracy i mean when i was watching donald trump in the oval office yesterday or was it today i every day blends together excuse me when he was signing those directives about miles taylor and chris krebs using the power of the united states government in the department of justice and executive orders in order to target individual citizens simply because they said that the election in 2020 was a free and fair election
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
that crosses the line completely into a full-on autocratic government. When you have a government disappearing people because either they don't agree with their beliefs or they don't look like you, that is the mark of an autocratic government.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And we are seeing this play out step by step by step, whether it's Palestinian activists who the government wants to say they're pro-Hamas and they need to get out of this country, whether it is The Venezuelan migrants or the El Salvadoran migrants who are whisked off the street and sent to El Salvadoran prison camps without any due process. That is what an autocratic government is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And it just so terrifies me to see that in the United States of America, not to mention the sleight of hand that Republicans are doing now. in the halls of Congress as well, while all this chaos is playing out on TV with Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
I mean, you could see what they did with the SAVE Act today, House Republicans passing this bill that's going to make it significantly harder for folks to vote, requiring certain forms of ID that people don't even have, like requiring married women to have passports with their married name on it. And if they don't have that, they don't accept a driver's license for this sort of voter ID.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
They only accept a birth certificate, which doesn't have the woman's married name on it. They go through all these hoops and then they try to frame it. They try to anchor it. And the media always buys into their BS and their anchoring as, oh, Democrats are afraid of citizens voting. Democrats want to support gang members. And they go on and on and on. And that just gets regurgitated.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
That just gets repeated when it couldn't be further from the truth. In my lifetime, and I'm sure in the lifetimes of many of our viewers and listeners, when Democrats have been at the helm, the economy's done a whole lot better. The economy's been a whole lot more, the government's been run a lot more efficiently. Things are fairer. Things are freer. There's more election security.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
There's more election integrity. There's more integrity in our justice system, in all of our systems, in all of our institutions. Yet, too often, the corporate media accepts the framing of the Republican Party when they say, oh yeah, we're fiscal hawks. Oh, this is for election security. This is for this and that. It's like enough buying into their crap and let's actually focus on what is going on.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And by the way, shame on the four Democrats who voted for the SAVE Act as well, because it's always BS. It's always a voter disenfranchisement scheme that is happening here. And then they try to frame it in a certain way to try to pin something bad on the Democratic Party or on voters or, you know, just you name it. But we got to stand up to it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And I know that's one thing we're going to do here at the Midas Touch Network.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
I want to quickly reflect on a Holocaust-era quote, and I hate that we have to go there at this time, but I think it speaks to the current moment. I think you all know it. It's the, you know, first they came for the socialists. I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
as we see Trump signing these executive orders from the Oval Office about people like Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor, as we see the Trump administration disappearing people off the streets for various reasons and sending them to El Salvadoran prison camps, as we watch this all, the lesson that I want you all to have is speak out and be loud and never be afraid to do so.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
We're never going to be afraid to do so here at the Midas Touch Network and we will do this for as long as we can. We will expose the truth every single day and they will have to rip these microphones out of our hands in order to get us to stop and even then we will not stop. So let's continue to speak out. Let's continue to fight. And I want to also, we got a big audience right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
I want to emphasize how helpful it is when you add the Midas Touch Podcast. Apple Podcasts and Spotify are the main platforms. It's also on all the other platforms. If you've already added the Midas Touch Podcast, like Ben said before, go ahead and add a five-star review.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
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When you go to the podcast pages on those various platforms, you will see an area where you could hit five stars and you could also write a review. That really helps to continue to get this show out. In addition to you sending the show to various friends and family members, let's continue to grow this unapologetically pro-democracy movement. Let's continue to stay strong.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
volatility is not a good sign having the market go up thousands of points and then down thousands of points then down thousands more than up a few not a sign of a healthy economy and as you said like it's a little sign of like great recessions great depressions it's a sign of an absolutely horrific economy you know what this reminds me of been uh remember 2020 uh covid
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
people were very concerned about the economy. And there was that moment where Donald Trump tried to do a scheme like this as well. He pumped the stock market, he had business leaders come to the White House, and the stock market pumped like crazy that one day. It was right before one of the worst crashes when millions and millions of Americans lost their jobs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
But Donald Trump literally and it felt like the version of this felt like this today that we just witnessed. But Donald Trump printed out the stock market chart for that one day of that increase. And he signed it with his signature and he held it up for the press as some massive achievement. Ultimately, the markets collapsed. Millions of people lost their jobs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
Society has never recovered since then. But Donald Trump was bragging about those single day stock market gains the same way he was bragging about yesterday.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
These clips are psychotic. I got to say, sorry if we have some Wall Street folks who listen to the show, but y'all got to get your shit together, because this Wall Street community, they fall for all this crap every single time. It's like Donald Trump, yes, he issued that pause, right? But he still kept 10% tariffs on the entire world. Still pretty bad, folks. That's still pretty bad.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And then yesterday, he raised the tariffs to 125% on China. Then today, he said, no, it's actually 145%. That alone, even without everything else, is calamitous. That alone is a complete disaster for the U.S. economy, for the global economy. And yesterday, people just kind of bought into Donald Trump's be cool spin.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
And then today, they woke up to reality and were like, oh, shit, things are actually still really bad. It's just like, come on, people, Ben.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/11/25
This is my favorite new character, by the way.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
That's why they're so focused on let's rename the Persian Sea or let's rename the Gulf of America, Mexico to Gulf of America.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Yeah. So this is this is that's all they could do because they could only handle the performative crap. And they're not even that good at that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Like, even when you look at I know I'm covering a lot right now, but even when you look at deportations, Trump's deportation numbers, despite all the chaos, despite all of his illegal actions, despite him deporting people, kidnapping people, abducting them, disappearing them, sending them to these death camps, these concentration camps, he's actually deporting fewer people than Joe Biden did than Barack Obama did.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Like, how could you be so evil yet so incompetent at the same time? But that is the name of the game with the Trump administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Wasn't that just so embarrassing to watch too? Humiliating.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
It's like Austin Powers when like the people around Dr. Evil are like... Yes.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
ah the reapers they just got shot down in the past 100 days we're talking about and i could tell you they'd be blaming you know dei they'd be blind fine they'd find some transgender person to pin this on because that's what they do they'd be blaming some a black person because that's what they do this is like what the hearings they'd hold oh my god there'd be hearings how could this happen how this is wokeism this is d yeah i mean you know that they would go you know they would go up there they would grandstand right they would go eight
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Like you said, you know, their strategy is the COVID strategy, which is you don't test. There are no cases. And that's what they do in every single aspect. And anytime anything looks bad for them, they just don't talk about it. Or Trump says, I don't know anything about it. They don't report the actual facts. The fact that we like, let's face it, like we are at war in Yemen right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
We are at war in the Red Sea with the Houthis. And I know people don't want to call it that, but that is exactly what is going on. And Trump's now claiming that there's some sort of ceasefire. Well, there has to be a tax for there to be a ceasefire. There's a ceasefire. Everything's going great. We're saying it's a ceasefire.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
But even after Donald Trump said that, that's when a lot of these incidents continue to happen. And I believe, and this is my speculation, and it's backed up by facts, at least a little bit, that we're not getting the full picture of what's going on because the Trump administration refuses to tell us what's actually going on in the Red Sea.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
So when I hear these stories of these fighter jets that are mysteriously falling off the USS Harry S. Truman, I cannot help but think, did something else happen here? Then this ship just happened to miss the landing or it just happened to fall off. Those stories, just to me, they're not quite checking out as, oh, that makes sense. It's a usual thing that happens. Planes just roll off.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
aircraft carriers all the time. And there's been like multiple, multiple instances just like this over the past few months, multiple instances. And when you look at like, you know, what is Pete Hegseth saying while this is going on?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
You see Pete Hegseth like yesterday, like when we were learning about some of this new stuff with the Houthis and we were learning about, you know, these wars breaking out between India and Pakistan. You see Hegseth posting things like, no more woke bullshit in my military. Kiss my ass. And it's like, okay, talk tough all you want. Like, you're the worst. You're completely incompetent.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Like, our fighter jets are just being lost off our aircraft carriers. We're being attacked. The world is on fire. And you're complaining about wokeism. Like, get over yourself. Do your damn job.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
We're doing this. He was like, yeah, they took our hits very well. They were quite brave out there. You're calling the Houthis brave? What are you doing, man? You're the commander in chief. Act like it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Doing well. Trying to make sense of this all, Ben, Jordy. Good to see you guys. Good to see you, Midas, Mighty, everybody watching here on YouTube, everybody listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get podcasts. Make sure to add the Midas Touch podcast. Another day, another day of chaos, as always, with Donald Trump. I like how these Republicans are always concerned about the opposition.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
What if it looks bad that we're taking away people's health care? How about don't be so concerned about the optics and be concerned about the fact that you're actually trying to take away people's health care? How about we start there and not with how is this going to look to people? Because it looks pretty bad. because it is pretty bad.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And Trump now kind of just encouraging these shortages, saying that we're going to have to learn to live with less, that girls are going to have to have less dolls, fewer dolls. And what's his obsession with dolls anyway? Everything's about to get more expensive. There are about to be shortages of every single product under the sun.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
I don't even know what eating it means, honestly. And I guess the only – if we really want to dig into this stupidity, and I don't know why I'm bothering, I guess the company can eat it and then pay the consumer to buy their product, I guess, if there's a 145% tariff, I think. That doesn't make any sense.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And a lot of these tariffs are – like the China tariff is over 100%. It's like 145%, so it's not even a possible thing. One of the things that we've seen also is that – and remember, when it's a China tariff, that's like Ben saying, a tariff on the imports coming from China that's being paid by American businesses. That's America tariff. paying more. That's the American consumer paying more.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And it's pretty obvious why Scott Besant didn't want to answer that because he would be directly contradicting Donald Trump, who continues to lie about what a tariff even is, or maybe he honestly doesn't even know what it is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
because when we watched that abc interview the other day it showed that his mental capacities were at rock bottom and so perhaps donald trump doesn't even know what this is who knows um but scott besant definitely knows what this is and he's just trying to protect donald trump here by continuing to lie to the american people about what's going on i think one of the interesting things that i've seen i'm not sure if you guys have seen this but on social media a lot of companies now are posting their tariff bills
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And Donald Trump just continues to sit there, manipulate the markets, do his same scheme, and honestly sound like a communist dictator.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
um and a lot of these people are people you know small business owners who supported trump and i think it's actually a really interesting trend that we are seeing whether it's on blue sky or twitter on facebook or whatever people posting like their statements from dhl that says in order for you to take this package you not only have to pay the price of the goods but you also owe and its prices are exorbitant like for you know
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Goods that don't even cost that much. They're paying thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars that they now have to pay. And so when Donald Trump says we're getting rich, we're getting rich, maybe he's just speaking about himself because the people who are actually paying those fees are American businesses and the American people.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
of the way he speaks like trump is like full-on commie right now the statements coming out of his mouth are what we've heard from communist regimes throughout history now it's coming from an american president and the irony of the party who's always calling everything communist the irony of that coming from them is just very apparent to me i would say anyway good to be here with you guys jordy what's the latest on your end
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Speaking of letters, I think we should speak about Trump's latest DUI hire, perhaps, Jeanine Pirro, who is now going. We mentioned this at the top of the show briefly, but it is like an official thing that Trump is actually doing. Trump announced that Judge Jeanine Pirro, that's right, the Fox host, a.k.a.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Judge Boxo Wine, will be appointed interim United States attorney for the District of Columbia District. Trump goes on and on and on about her things. I mean he's appointing her because she's a Fox host. Trump actually had pardoned her husband for crimes. I believe it was during his last administration, hard to keep track of all of this stuff. I remember people think this is like a meme.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
People think this is fake, but this is legitimate what Donald Trump is doing. Just adding to the complete and utter clown show, as Ben says, no offense to clowns, but the clown show of the Trump administration that we are seeing right here. This, of course, after Ed Martin, the previous U.S. interim attorney for the District of Columbia, was withdrawn from his nomination today because of his –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Overall, he was just too crazy for – even too crazy for the magazine. Ed Martin was the guy who actually – he defended the January 6th insurrectionists. He defended the January 6th insurrection. If you saw a lot of the memos that we covered that Ed Martin has released while he has been interim U.S. attorney, it is straight out of authoritarian governments, like very scary stuff. He's the guy –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
who put forth all of those various memos saying, like, if you criticize Elon Musk, we're going to come after you with the full power of the Department of Justice. Like, this guy is a complete and utter lunatic. So he's gone, and we got another lunatic, I guess, in his place now, Judge Jeanine, Donald Trump picking again from the Fox News propaganda pool.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Ben, your thoughts on Judge Jeanine as a U.S. attorney, a very what used to be a highly respected position?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Yeah, MAGA's losing it. I mean, just to kind of, you know, get back to the beginning here, just the basic facts, you know, this morning, I think we all saw the white smoke emanating from the Sistine Chapel chimney. That signifies that a new pope has indeed been elected in conclave. By the way, the timing of that movie, I mean, my God, did they get lucky?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
But we saw yesterday there was the black smoke, which meant that there was no pope elected. And some people thought that this was going to take quite a bit. And then I think everybody was shocked when all of a sudden the white smoke was coming up today. And we then learned about, I don't know, about an hour or so later that the person who was selected is Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
He is from Chicago, of all places, the first pope from the United States in history, the 267th pope.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
he has now taken the name you know the popes take uh take other names he's taken the name of pope leo the 14th and immediately uh you know our researchers started looking him up and found his twitter account right away he tweets and not that much but when he does tweet he's quite intentional about it and so you know his tweets are honestly the kinds of things that you would expect somebody who embraces the tenets of christianity to be speaking about right
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
speaking positively about immigrants, speaking about caring for thy neighbor. When you look at his tweets, it is like the fundamentals of Catholicism, of Christianity.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
But I think the funny thing that happens in these moments, and it happened all the time with Pope Francis, and by the way, Pope Leo XIV was actually very close with Pope Francis, shares a lot of his beliefs about things, is known to be centrist, but more progressive on a lot of these key social issues.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
One of the things I think we realize when there are these moments is how contradictory the MAGA ideology and the Republican notion of Jesus in the United States is to that of the actual church. And when those come into conflict, MAGA doesn't know how to react. And so they lash out. They call him a DEI Pope. They call him a Democrat. They call him a woke lib.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
They try to just throw all these words out here to try to smear the person who is simply just speaking about the tenets of his religion and somebody who hasn't even said much, even in English at all, think at this point about his papacy. And so when you look at his old tweets, I think they're very revealing about who he is as an individual.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And this is one of the reasons why MAGA is so furious right now, because you look at his tweets, you see some of the ones right here. Recently, this is in February 2025, he wrote on Twitter, Pope Francis's letter, J.D. Vance, and what the gospel asks of us all on immigration. One of the other tweets he posted around then was, J.D. Vance is wrong. Jesus does not ask us to rank our love for others.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
A very recent post from him was about Donald Trump sending immigrants to these prison camps in El Salvador. He was harshly critical of Donald Trump on that and was retweeting other people who were being critical about that. He retweeted Senator Chris Murphy on gun control in 2017.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
He's tweeted in the past about Donald Trump, you know, going back at least to 2015 about the things that Donald Trump has said about migrants being highly critical of him there. And you could just go through kind of all of his tweets, you know, go through the things that he was saying about COVID-19. You see November 2015, sign the Catholic climate petition.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
So, you know, you have all these things that are happening. And so you have the typical MAGA folks, the MAGA propagandists, once again lashing out because the concept of faith and their ideology, where they... Their religion, let's face it, is MAGA. Their religion is Donald Trump. That is their God.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And so when anybody, especially in a role like this, goes against their God, they don't know how to react. And so we saw just all these deranged posts. Laura Loomer called him a woke Marxist pope. She was like leading the charge against the new pope. We saw this guy, Joey Manorino, saying Pope Leo XIV is not an American. He's a Democrat. Just read his Twitter feed.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
That's very revealing also about the way that they view Democrats in this country. One of the comments to that person said, another MAGA wrote, this bolstered the New World Order fight against Donald Trump and the American people feeling discouraged. I mean, these people are, this is like mental illness that we're seeing right here. Laura Loomer was just on a rampage today.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
She said, this is the new Pope. His name is Robert Prevost. He's the first American Pope. He's anti-Trump, anti-MAGA, pro-open borders, and a total Marxist like Pope Francis. Catholics don't have anything good to look forward to. Just another Marxist puppet in the Vatican. Sean Davis, another one of these MAGAs. The new Pope seems to be anti-Trump and pro-open borders.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
It's just so pathetic when you see this. Like every kind of moment, they just have to like view everything through the lens of what does Donald Trump think about this? I must be loyal to my leader. I must be loyal to my God, Donald Trump.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
and it's just so incredibly embarrassing when you see it like that this reaction was no different uh um you know but you know obviously a big day um you know for for catholics a big day for the world out there and a historic moment to have a an american pope um i think it's just a you know a crazy thing and i mean just think about from chicago who graduated from villanova university i mean that's kind of wild no he's finally spent like what 20 years i think in peru um doing a lot of things in peru he speaks like eight languages you know obviously like uh you know
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Brilliant dude. And yeah, you know, I mean, it was like the second day of them doing the voting and he's in. There you have it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
It's utterly ridiculous. Jordy, think about how much they smeared. Former President Joe Biden.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And his religion. And he was a devout Catholic, a practicing Catholic, somebody who went to church every Sunday and how they hold up Donald Trump as this beacon of religiosity and piety when he represents like quite literally every sin.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
and he is infallible to them and so so that those two things are in contradiction you know at the end of the day and so you know i mean you see it play out but that's why we always say here that this whole mega movement at all kind of the the only way it can operate is when there are no facts right the only way it could operate is when they live in this alternate reality.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
So, Ben, you were speaking before about, you know, like what a leader would do is tell the truth, right? What a leader would do is say, these are the things that are going to be happening. There are going to be these shortages. It is going to be difficult. Donald Trump, you know... But I think what they learn from, I think they always learn the wrong lessons. They learn that you got to lie more.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
From COVID, they didn't learn that, oh, we should have been more prepared for this disease. We should have been more open with the American people. We should have tested more people. No, if you ask these MAGA people right now, they double down on everything they did in COVID.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
they say that oh we were actually right during cove it actually coveted wasn't really that bad even though millions of people died it actually wasn't that bad people you know it was just you know everyone just went crazy and it was just like a little cold and why did everybody freak out and they refused to ever step back for one second and say you know what maybe just maybe it would have been better you know if we actually acknowledge the reality of the situation the gravity of the situation
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
They just know that if they continue to steamroll with their propaganda networks and their lies and they just keep going, that they will ultimately be able to bring those MAGA diehards along with them on this fake reality journey that they have. That applies whether we're talking the Pope, it applies whether we're talking COVID, shortages, you name it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
It's all propped up by this house of cards of lies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
backtrack on something a little bit after making everybody suffer, you know, and then he cuts the tariffs from, okay, instead of 100%, it's 95%. When he does these little stupid moves, what happens? You get a quick stock market pump, right? You get the news making all these headlines that they made a deal.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Like, that whole machine turns on and what Trump, I think, is savvy enough to know through all of his... batshit crazy moves, is that he can manipulate the media easily. He can manipulate the stock market easily. He can manipulate all of his followers easily. All he has to do is do one little sort of thing and they go, oh my God, this is amazing. Oh my God. He didn't do anything.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
He's made things so much worse. Everything is still on. There is no deal. Let's get back to reality, folks. I know that's what we're trying to do here at the Midas Touch Network. Ben, like you said at the Milken Institute in your speech, like... we just got to look at these things and go like, what we're watching right now is nuts. This is crazy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And we can never accept what we are looking at as normal. So stop being gaslighted, whether it's by the media, whether it's by billionaires, Wall Street tech bros, you name it. We all know what is going on. It is very obvious. It is very obvious. And that's why they are working overtime. And that's why these billionaires are working overtime to propagandize
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
all day long to try to hide the simple facts from the public.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Those wokesters at Goldman Sachs, classic woke lib Goldman Sachs. Wokeman Sachs, I think is what they're calling them now. Wokadel. Wokalo. No, that one doesn't quite work.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
uh it was apollo with woke uh before i didn't that didn't really it was a good job sometimes sometimes you gotta shoot your shot once every few you know you connect yeah this was totally embarrassing and trump held it as this this was going to be some sort of major trade deal last night one of his classic all caps tweets we did it everybody it's like what did you do
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
First off, once it came out that it was the United Kingdom, I couldn't help but laugh because we actually have a trade surplus with the United Kingdom, which the whole point of this is for the trade deficit. So it doesn't even make sense to begin with.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
Of course, you're going to cut the deal with the one that we have the surplus with because your tariffs by your own admission of the reasoning that you're saying these tariffs are being placed doesn't make any sense with the nation that we have a trade surplus on. And even with that, they couldn't even get to an actual deal. It's a concept of a deal that we are working on right here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And just like everything they do is just a scam from start to finish. And quite frankly, I wish that there were a lot of aspects of this that could work. I wish that Doge was actually an organization that was going in to improve the technology of government, increase the efficiency of government. But then I wish maybe they could actually lower the deficit or balance the budget.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
The fact is, when they actually come into office, they complain about all that crap and then they do the opposite and they do it far worse than any of their major complaints. Like Donald Trump is going to explode the deficit once again, way more than what the deficit or debt went up under Joe Biden, which was actually decreasing under Joe Biden, the deficit.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
You see with this whole Doge nonsense, Trump or Elon Musk was promising over $2 trillion in cuts, right? We're going to have $2 trillion in cuts to the government. Well, Judd Legume did a report yesterday showing that Elon Musk is now on track to deliver just $5 billion. billion worth of cuts, so 0.25% of the promised cuts. And that's him being generous to get to that number.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And not only that, that doesn't take into account the amount that Doge is actually costing us, as Ben mentioned before. By Doge's actions in the IRS alone, it is going to cost the U.S., more than $1 trillion. I think some of the estimates are $1.6, $1.7 trillion in costs to the United States. So Elon Musk said that he was going to save the federal government $2 trillion.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
In fact, he is costing the federal government at least that amount and probably more while also causing chaos, while also causing mass unemployment, while also just disrupting people's lives. The trauma that comes with all this, the collective trauma that we are all experiencing here as Americans, it's just one scam after the next scam after the next scam with nothing actually getting done.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/9/25
And that's why we see when these Republicans actually have to do something or when Donald Trump actually has to do something like, okay, fellas, it's time to pass a budget. This is your most basic of tasks. You got to just pass a budget. This is what every Congress and president needs to do each year, right? They cannot even do the most basic tasks of governing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
why i why i don't want pain what what are you talking about the crazy thing is i would i i would maybe understand some of this if they were like listen like times are really tough the economy we're in a great depression and we all gotta understand that times are gonna be tough as we get back you know on our feet but Our economy is the best in the world.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
There are obviously a lot of issues with the economy, but our economy has been the best in the world thanks to President Biden bringing us back to the devastation that was wrought by Donald Trump's previous administration. So you saw four years of steady growth. You saw four years of growth.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
uh inflation raising because of what happened with donald trump and the pandemic and the issue with supply chains and you name it and you saw president biden deal with that in a steady way uh execute what is known as a soft landing which many people thought was impossible and now that we're at that soft landing stage uh elon musk and donald trump actually want to destroy people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
they want a hard landing they want to actually hit people over the head and make them suffer and this is like how many times do they have to say this out loud before people get it how many elon said it before the campaign uh trump said it last week you have this guy saying it right now there's no need for americans to suffer for things to improve and the fact that people apparently decided that they want this
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
is one of the most disturbing things to me. But Ben, I think you nailed it. The rage algorithm, people looking beyond their own interests because it just, it upsets me because I have so much empathy and I care so much about these various groups of people. I care so much about the treatment of the Palestinian people. I care so much about the treatment of Muslims in America.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
I care so much about these other immigrant groups, the Venezuelans, the Cubans, and to see them be led astray by Donald Trump and to buy his bullshit when everybody should have known that Donald Trump is a master bullshitter and was going to sell these people out the second he could. It just defies any sort of logic to me. I read an interesting article. I'll just like
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
go over quickly, but it was an article about one of Peter Thiel's in-house thinkers. They called him a house philosopher. And this guy's name is Curtis Yarvin, and he's a software engineer. And he developed kind of this program, this plan that we now kind of see Elon Musk following. There's been articles about this guy in the Guardian. and on this website, the Nerd Reich.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And he envisioned, and this is a guy who JD Vance frequently retweets and quote tweets and views as an intellectual genius, this software engineer guy. And he said, quote, If Americans want to change their government, they're going to have to get over their dictator phobia.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And he suggested running the government with a president and then an unelected CEO type who gets to do whatever he wants in the government and destroy the government from within, make the American people feel pain as he rewires the government from the ashes. Does that sound familiar to what's going on right now?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Well, this is somebody who Peter Thiel, who's one of the PayPal mafia guys, he helped start PayPal with Elon Musk and very close, basically responsible for JD Vance. This is like the philosopher, and I use quotes for that, that these people look up to, and this is who they're taking their guidance from right now. So I just think it gives a little bit of perspective.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
He called his operation that he envisioned rage, retire all government employees. And what the writer of this Nerd Reich notes is that rage is basically the same thing as doge under a different name. And that's exactly the plans right now that you see Elon Musk carrying out.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
So are you going to join us or are you not? Because they're going to come for us. It's the greatest recruiting tool ever for these groups. Donald Trump has made our country, whether he even acts on these things or not, he has put our country in grave danger the same way that he spiked the stock market for those few hours before he panicked and reversed on his tariffs.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
His actions have real world effects. There's always going to be an opposite reaction to Donald Trump's action. It's the nature of how this works. And so we're frankly, we're not safe under this administration is basically my main point. And we just got to be careful, honestly, with all this stuff.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
I mean, it's craziness. It's pandemonium. We can never act like any of this is normal. There really is like a coup of the government happening from the inside. And we're seeing state-run media like you see in Russia and North Korea and other autocratic countries. Fox is just full-on...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And unfortunately, the Republican Party and MAGA and the Fox News of the world all view this as some sort of propaganda game, but the consequences are serious.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Maybe it's like Pinocchio where his ears grow the more he lies.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
state-run media at this point everything they say is bullshit everything's a lie honestly a lot of the stuff i think would make vladimir putin and the stuff he does over in russia blush um with with the level of gaslighting that they have and it's the same pattern though that we've seen from fox over so many years and that's at first they try to tell you what trump really said.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
I knew that when I got back, I could not live without it. After installing my Tushy bidet, I couldn't believe I went this long without one. It was ridiculously easy to set up, took me about 10 minutes, no extra plumbing, no hassle. Trust me, if I could do it, you can. And now, my bathroom experience is cleaner, fresher, and way more comfortable than just using toilet paper.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
wiping with dry paper is basically just smearing things around gross tushy washes you with a precise stream of fresh water that removes 99 of bacteria that means less irritation no more micro tears and no need for those chemical laden wet wipes just a smooth refreshing clean every single time
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And the best part, I'm using 80% less toilet paper, which means I'm saving money, preventing clogged toilets, and feeling way better after every trip to the bathroom. Honestly, once you go bidet, you never go back. Instantly improve your health from the bottom up. For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off their first bidet order when you use our code MIDAS at checkout. That's M-E-I-D-A-S.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Oh, this is actually what he really meant. It's actually four-dimensional chess. And watch, let me show you. And then Hannity goes, oh, you're just not getting it, you people. If you were as smart as me and everybody else, we know that Donald Trump is doing these negotiations. And then inevitably, this is going to happen where
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
That's 10% off your first bidet order at hellotushy.com with promo code MIDAS. hellotushy.com, promo code MIDAS, M-E-I-D-A-S. Your butt will thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
We can workshop it. We can workshop it. And now we go to Jordy to make fun of RFK. Jordy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Frankly, if these kids were bullied a little more, I don't think we'd have Doge. Maybe they needed a little more bullying.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Hannity's gonna be on an interview with Trump one-on-one and he's gonna ask, so this is a negotiation tactic, right? So you're not really, this is just a positioning for the United States. And Trump's gonna go, no, I really mean it. And Hannity's gonna go, but you really don't, right? And the whole cycle's gonna continue like it always does.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
the stupidity is endless the uh they're even using the same talking points right now if you look from fox uh to the white house press secretary to people like pete hegseth you see the talking points um just repeat themselves on all those aspects they are clearly in coordination and if you know let me show you a clip i got a clip of them literally repeating each other's talking points um that i do want to show you um i'll show you this and then i'll just make another point about
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
why Fox is state run TV after you watch this, but this makes it pretty damn clear.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
I think it's important as well that we reflect on the weakness that Donald Trump is showing with all these moves and how he continuously now, he tries these big swings and ends up getting swatted down, whether it's by other foreign leaders or whether it's by the judiciary system. And Ben, you know, we use the phrase here that Ben came up with a weapon of mass distraction.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And, you know, Ezra Klein kind of took that... through line, I think, and expanded on it a bit as well. And a great op-ed that I read where he basically said, you know, don't believe Trump. Like he's going to try to throw all this crap, see what sticks. He's going to try to act. He wants everybody to think he's the super powerful king that nobody could say no to.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
But guess what we're seeing time and time again?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
people are saying no to him the courts are shutting him down his team is a complete and utter mess uh they're making all these mistakes they're kind of a disaster behind the scenes uh they can't really do anything right and as they struggle you see the people rising up you see the people taking the streets you see donald trump's approval rating falling dramatically you see elon musk who i think it's weird for just a random public figure to have an approval rating but i guess some people do but you see elon musk's approval rating
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
plummet like i'm talking plummet where most americans um i think only 30 something percent of americans approve of what elon musk is doing right now one of the fascinating things that i saw as well as there's a new poll out amongst republicans who before the election said like 60 or something like that said they were excited about elon musk having a very intimate job in the Trump administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Now that's down among Republicans to something like 26% with this new poll. So you're seeing things change. You're seeing perceptions change. So we have to remember that in spite of all the craziness out there, to not fall for all of Donald Trump's antics and to understand that he is not infallible, that we have the strength and we have the energy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And whether the corporate media wants to show it or not, We're going to show these images. We're going to show the protests. We're going to show the opposition to Donald Trump, the pro-democracy resistance that is taking shape in all forms right now. And we are never going to give up with this. And I know you aren't either. We got to break through the noise. We got to continue to fight.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And I know that you all are going to do this. Oh, you know what I also want to do, if it's OK, just two seconds. I want to show you just a quick clip of our interview with Jim Acosta from earlier. This is, you can see the full thing on the Midas Plus sub stack. We had a great chat with him, spoke to him for like 35 minutes this morning.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
He's such a legend and he is one of the voices out there that is standing strong, that is fighting back, that is not taking the crap, that is not laying down. He's defending our democracy and he had some thoughts about Donald Trump constantly backing down. I'll play it for you right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
I'm telling you right now, it's an inflection point right now, right? We may be down bad from the election, right? Everybody's not thrilled to say the least about what happened. But what's happening right now in the background, and not in the background for you, but in the background to the folks in corporate mainstream media, all that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
There's something growing right now that's bigger than ever that they don't even see coming. So let's continue to build that and let's continue to just crush them. As we emerge, it's already too late for them. But it's already too late. But once they finally get wind of what's going on here...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
they're going to be oh crap right they're they're going to freak out so continue to follow all the platforms grow and not just us too but all the pro democracy creators out there make sure you're following let's grow this community and i really mean it i'm going to push you guys really hard this episode because i i want this show to be number one i want this message to get out follow the midas touch podcast on audio we are the number one news podcast now in america i want to be the number one of all podcasts but it's great that we're beating all these mega people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Because once you're, the higher you are, the more the algorithms push you out, the more they push down the other folks. And we got to drown these people out. It is my mission in life to drown these MAGA voices out and for this community right here to be the one leading the charge. So on that note, I guess I'll leave it to Jordy to sign us out.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Like I said, Mike, you can't... Vladimir Putin is watching that being like, guys, you've got to tone it down a little bit. It's a little on the nose, fellas. And that clip for the audio listeners, you go between Carolyn Levitt, who's the press secretary. You go to Pete Hegseth, who was a Fox News host, plucked right out of Fox News Morning. TV. Then you go to the Fox host praising him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
They all say the same exact things. And where I was getting at before is if that wasn't enough for you to explain that this is state TV, guess who's getting a new show on Fox, a new weekend show on Fox coming up soon. Lara Trump is going to be hosting a new show where she's going to get into the truth about what is really going on. That's right.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Lara Trump, a former co-chair of the RNC, now getting a show on Fox. But yeah, Trump administration, tell me more about DEI
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
economic thrust of their country so that they can make a determination that they can solve their problems without resorting to totalitarian control and becoming part of the bloc and i want everybody quickly to just be aware of a lot of the disinformation that's going out there right now because one of the things i think that's been the scariest thing for me about this trump administration and frankly it's been a concern of mine for the past
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
I don't know, since we've been doing this is that, you know, Fox owns the flow of information that's on cable news. They're the dominant news outlet spreading the news there, and they own a lot of newspapers. And then you have Sinclair that owns a lot of the local news that's repeating right wing talking points. They're right wing conglomerate.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
that own channels that appear to be NBC or appear to be ABC or Fox or whatever. They're actually owned by Sinclair. Then on digital, you have the platforms that are owned by people like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. And those are throttling information. Those are pushing certain information to the top. And so these lies spread so quickly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
So I see every day now a new lie that is built up in order to justify the destruction of these agencies and to smear people and to destroy them, to fire them, to maybe ultimately imprison them. And it worries me because it doesn't look like the United States at all, but it does look like Russia. It does look like what you see in these autocratic countries.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And so when you see with USAID and you see Elon Musk, I've seen a lot of these kind of right-wing people on Twitter go, Isn't it everything that they're afraid because we found the fraud. We found the fraud and the illegal activity and they are mad that we discovered all the illicit activity that they are doing at the treasury department, at the this department, at the that department.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
They make up a lie and then they use that as a predicate to then go after those organizations and to bleed them dry when they are the ones actually engaging in likely illicit behavior.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
they deflect with that, that becomes the pseudo truth that gets uplifted first on social media, then it flows to Fox, it's repeated on Fox, and then it just becomes the kind of MAGA truth that they think is the truth. There was this Politico story yesterday that was one of the things going on that was saying like, oh, look, USAID paid Politico.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
all this money over these years and they're using it to bribe politico and and it was just complete and total bs they were paying for like a politico data service the same way government agencies pay for reuters or associated press or whatever to get access to data to get access to uh research and things like that and it was money that was paid over the course of
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
I don't know, like eight years or 10 years or something like that. They turned this into a conspiracy theory that USAID is being used to funnel money to news agencies in order to shift the programming to be anti-Trump. And they somehow acted like Politico is like the most pro-Biden administration, which if you read Politico ever, you know that it's... Absolutely not at all.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And I think they're even owned by a right wing like German conglomerate of Politico. But, you know, the point that I want to make, though, is that they are using Soviet esque justifications in order to destroy these agencies. And And it's just a very devious tactic.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
I'm not honestly sure how you overcome all that other than by building these pro-democracy voices like the Midas Touch Network and others up. And so, I mean, that's our mission right now. We got to combat this just endless flow of stuff. And I'll just add also that we're doing that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And I want to thank everybody because we're proud to announce that the Midas Touch Podcast on audio platforms right now is the number one news podcast out of any podcast on all of audio on Apple Podcasts. Not only that, when you look at all categories, we are the number two podcast of all podcasts. So that's higher than the New York Times.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
You see, it's higher than Joe Rogan, higher than Tucker Carlson. higher than Megyn Kelly, higher than Charlie Kirk, Ben Shapiro. So finally, these pro-democracy voices, despite all the manipulation, despite all the finger that they have on the scale here, we are still winning this information war right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
And that's because of you, because while the corporate media wants to think that the pro-democracy community is dead right now, that we are silent, They are dead wrong about that. People are fed up. They don't like what's happening. So if you want to support, by the way, help us get to number one of all podcasts.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 2/6/25
Make sure you go right now also and add the Midas Touch podcast on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify and keep us up the rankings because we need to continue to clap back at this disinformation with the truth. And that's what we're here to do. I know that's what you're going to do, Ben. Ben, you're on mute.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
And he's consistently using the language of an abuser because Donald Trump is an abuser. And so when Donald Trump says about all these countries, they're abusing us and they're treating us unfairly and yada, yada, yada, he's talking about himself. There was no reason to do any of this. There's trade agreements with many of these countries already.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
The reciprocal tariffs, that whole idea is completely 100% fabricated. It's all bullshit. And by the way, shame on the media for parroting this line that these are reciprocal tariffs. There is nothing reciprocal about them at all.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
all that's donald trump's line there's nothing reciprocal about them these are the biggest tariffs i believe in history right now um even bigger than what happened in smoot holly which exacerbated the great depression and that's what donald trump did and he he came up with this um ridiculous formula i guess that it looks like they use chat gpt or something people are saying they use like ai to devise this formula and we'll get into the formula but it has to do with trade deficits but
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
I just want to show you this for a second, because I think just to show the scope of Donald Trump's lies and just how big his lies are with everything. And this is why I get pissed off when I see headlines from reputable news sources that say Trump's reciprocal tariffs, because I'm going to tell you right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
the tariffs that Donald Trump claimed are being charged to the US, and the actual average of the tariffs that are being charged to the US in reality. So for example, this is the most egregious example, so I'm going to lead with this. Vietnam. Trump claimed on his little chart, he pulled out this big-ass chart that he walked around with.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
The second he pulled that chart out, markets collapsed in the after hours. He claimed that Vietnam charges a 92% tariff to the United States. You know, the actual average tariff Vietnam charges? It's not 92%, it is 9.5%. A bit of a delta there between those two, between Donald Trump's claim, his justification for his tariffs, and what is actually happening.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Canada, Donald Trump claims that Canada has implemented a 48% tariff against the United States. Well...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
a little off there because the actual number is four percent and you could go down the list of every single country i guess to your point ben except for the afghanistan under the taliban you go through every other country and you could see that donald trump's claims here are completely fraudulent the same way he has committed fraud in his businesses by making up numbers he is quite literally making up the numbers here based on trade deficits which aren't inherently good or bad trade jobs it just means we're buying more stuff from these countries
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
because we have demand for those goods in those countries. So the whole justification for these tariffs are just garbage to begin with. And I just want to make clear how vast the difference is right now between reality, the facts, and what Donald Trump is selling here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Oh, we have a lot to discuss, so we should dive into it pretty quickly. But first, what's going on, listeners? What's going on, viewers? Great to see everybody here on YouTube Live. Great to be speaking to people who are listening on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure you sign up there, add the show. Man, what a week.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
You know, I think this is going to go down as one of the most consequential weeks. And we actually said prior to the previous episode how important this week was going to be. And I don't even think we realized just how consequential this week was going to be. First, I want to highlight the big wins for democracy. Judge Crawford in Wisconsin.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
of going against the oligarchs, the billionaires, Elon Musk, the MAGA movement put everything into that race and they lost. And I think that should give everybody watching and listening to this a little bit of hope. And it shows that the tide is turning. Even in those Florida special election races where Democrats lost, we saw massive shifts. massive shifts towards democracy in those races.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. ,,,, This time of year, it's time to shake off those winter blues and get ready for a fresh start and that includes your hair. I've been using the iRestore Elite and I've got to say I was skeptical at first, but this thing is legit. I pop it on when I'm watching TV or answering emails, completely hands-free, super comfortable and honestly, kind of relaxing.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
You cannot just write those off. And then, of course, the disastrous Liberation Day announcement by Donald Trump. I'm not sure what I'm being liberated from other than, I guess, the money in my bank account, liberated from the sanity, the competence that we used to have. That's the only thing that I am seeing that we are liberated from. But let's dig right into it. Jordy, how you doing, man?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Well, I'll just say this. I think one of the reasons why this network resonates with folks and why this community is so important is that we're not following the political winds, right? The political winds are going to shift. That doesn't mean you shift your values to try to sort of time the market to, so to speak, right? We all have our values. We know what's right. We know what's wrong.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
is very wrong and it is just what we're a few months now into donald trump's disastrous administration and we are already seeing a seismic shift so i think a lot of these people who have been leaning into like maga talking point trying to shift to the right also i think they're going to have a lot of egg on their face you know if they don't already because people are going to be sick of this stuff so quickly how do i know well because they already are sick of this stuff
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
And like I said earlier, this stuff is always very cyclical, right? There's a cyclical power at play where people vote one way, they go, oh shit, we shouldn't have done that. Vote the other way, go, oh shit, this maybe could be better. And then vote the other way. And it just ping pongs back and forth. Now we're seeing a shift though right now that's quicker than we've ever seen before.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
And so first I want to highlight Judge Susan Crawford in Wisconsin. Judge Susan Crawford, she defeated the MAGA judge candidate, Brad Schimel.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
this was a race that maga donald trump elon musk their entire media ecosystem all of their influencers they all went all in on this race elon musk spent like more money than anybody else combined musk was handing out checks to people he literally gave a few people million dollar checks like doing these to me, very obviously illegal schemes in the state to try to influence the election.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
But guess what? It failed. In fact, I think it backfired because there were some Republican initiatives that actually performed better than Brad Schimel did in the race on the same ballot. So I think Elon Musk actually had, if you want to talk about Doge, the most inefficient investments on the
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
moked in this race even worse than he probably would have if elon musk never even stepped foot in that state or spoke about this election once so that's a big deal it's a big deal that in wisconsin we see judge crawford winning it was something like 55.1 to 44.9 something around that those are very very very very sizable margins so now all these sort of illegal gerrymandering tricks that these mega republicans wanted to pull in wisconsin
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
That's over. It could help Democrats in the House coming up. That's a big, big, big deal. This is a big, big, big deal that this happened. And I want to show you, speaking of the political wins, let me show you what that looks like when you lay it out on a map. Here's a map. I'm going to pull it up. I'll just describe it for the folks listening.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
It's a map of the shift in the margins from the 2024 presidential vote in places in Wisconsin compared to the vote just now in this race for Supreme Court in Wisconsin. You could see every one of these blue arrows is shifting. The way they do it is they do blue arrows shifting to the left to show that it's getting more democratic. This is statewide on this map.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
I don't even see a single red arrow shifting all the way to the left. If you look at the election map, this went the complete opposite direction. Now the winds have quickly shifted. And we are seeing the wind shift even in places like Florida, even in deep red districts that went to Trump by like 30 points.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
And I know I got a lot of comments when I was speaking about the Florida elections and we were posting about it where people said, but Brett, we lost. We lost these races. So who cares if the Democrats increased their margins and the MAGA guy didn't do better? Well-
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
you got to think about things a little bit in a brick by brick way things don't just change overnight right and florida over the past many years has become redder and redder and redder and these districts were incredibly red districts to begin with it's the only reason why trump felt comfortable at least at first plucking these people out of their seats to try to give them jobs in their administration
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Well, what was the result of this? Basically, there was about a 20-point shift in Florida towards the Democrats in these Trump districts, districts that Trump won handily by 30 points, districts that the MAGA candidates won handily by, in some cases, even more than that. To see that shift in less than 100 days into Trump is absolutely stunning.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
I think voters out there understand that we are on the wrong track. They understand that they don't like waking up and looking at their 401ks and seeing it just completely crash. They understand that they don't like going to the store and paying more for goods. They don't like fighting with Canada. They don't like all the chaos every single day.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
I wish they knew that a few months ago, but it's clear that they know that now. I think the Democrats are actually set up quite well right now for the midterms in 2026. I think there's going to be a lot of momentum there. I think you could honestly in many ways disregard those sort of approval ratings for the Democrats because I think that also speaks to this –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
This feeling of weakness and leaders, and we've criticized them plenty, who had not stepped up enough. But what else happened this week? We saw Senator Cory Booker get up there on the Senate floor and speak for 25 hours straight, the longest speech in Senate history, in order to protest. Elon Musk, Doge, and Donald Trump. I think you're seeing the fight out there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
You're seeing the fight now in the halls of Congress. You're seeing the fight out there on the streets. And this weekend, we're going to be highlighting it here. There is a massive mobilization effort across the country. They're calling it the hands-off protest. Mass mobilization this Saturday, April 5th.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Here's going to be my ask to you because there are more than a thousand events planned across the nation on April 5th. And you could Google it. You'll find all the locations. I know Indivisible is a group that's helping to coordinate. I know MoveOn is a group that's helping to coordinate. So you go to their websites, you'll see a list of where all the events are if you want to join this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Over a hundred organizations are supporting these efforts. There are going to be thousands and thousands and thousands of people on the streets this weekend to protest this Trump regime. Here's what I want you to do. I'm going to give you some homework. When you're at these events, Take pictures, take video, post it on social media. Don't rely on like, oh, there's so many people out there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
The mainstream media will probably cover this. The corporate media will probably cover this. The one thing we learned about building Midas Touch Sometimes you got to build Midas Touch. Sometimes you got to build. Sometimes you got to take things into your own hands if you don't see things going the way that you want it to. So you all are going to be out there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
I know a lot of you are going to be at the protests. If you are there, take pictures, post them on social media, tag us, send them to us. We're here to uplift everything you do, and we're going to try to figure out some other creative ways to cover these events as well. This is important. We predicted here at the Midas Touch Network a democracy summer.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Well, it looks like a democracy spring is already upon us. And this is just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And I'm so honestly proud of everybody out there for putting in the work, for remaining in this fight. I got to say, by just you listening to the show, shows that you are still in this fight, that you have not been defeated.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
Trump thought he was going to defeat us, but I'm telling you, in these past few weeks, the political winds have shifted. He has lost control. His administration has completely lost control. They are flailing. Fox News is flailing. This community is leading, and you are leading.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
And I think that's why when you look at these charts, you see Midas Touch right here is the fastest growing political or political adjacent YouTube channel by net new subscribers in Q1 of 2025. We saw this data earlier today. This is kind of unheard of.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
in the digital space this has been unheard of for years and years maybe ever this is the first time that we are seeing creators who are pro-democracy breaking through at this level because you guys are all in this fight and when you look at this we see a lot of friends here right we see midas touch we see dave packman we see adam mochler our gen z contributor right there at the top they're defeating the likes of the uh megan kelly's the candace owens the you name it i could go through all the list of these magazines
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
that's a testament to you and your power so let's continue this fight let's keep it strong shout out to all of our international supporters as well we're so grateful for you and we stand in solidarity with you elbows up to canada shout out to all of our followers in greenland and the eu everywhere across the world australia sorry shout out to the penguins
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
shout out to the penguins and the mcdonald islands who come tariffed and uh and uh you know hang hang in there penguins you know some people are uh some people say that donald trump just saw the word mcdonald's uh they're saying that he saw the word mcdonald's got excited and threw a tariff on on the mcdonald islands i don't know if there's any truth to that but i'm just saying it's it's there are dumber things he's done
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 4/4/25
evil manipulative thing that they're doing i don't know how you could watch that and not understand that it's pure propaganda and that they're lying to your face and watch it day after day after day and just accept what these people are saying as facts I mean, there's nothing truthful at all about any of what Donald Trump is doing here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And that is impossible if there aren't actual facts involved.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
out there and that is why quite frankly when we look ahead right now to all these people who Donald Trump is pushing to be in his cabinet that is why it is now more important than ever that we put up a fight against these unserious nominees because we need people who are going to be taking these things seriously we need people who are going to be actually looking at
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
the facts because tough talk, bluster, going on Fox News, spouting a bunch of bullshit, it's not going to help anybody. What helps people is actually analyzing the facts, coming up with a plan, and figuring out how to actually save lives.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And with these clowns who Donald Trump wants to put in his cabinet, no offense to clowns, seriously, that's not going to happen in this administration despite all the tough talk.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Community note. Yeah. These people treat these community notes like they're sacrosanct. First off, many of the time, they're not even accurate because the notes are pushed by people who have voting power, who are the dominant people on the app, who are right-wingers. Secondly, like you said, the lie has already gotten out there a million times. Here's the thing, Ben.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
The thing that we notice every single time also is even when they get debunked, even when the truth comes out there, they insist on pushing the lie even after the fact. Because they have zero scruples. They have zero dignity whatsoever. They just want to spread this lie. And so we see people like Speaker Mike Johnson, who, by the way, Speaker Mike Johnson's in like a lot of trouble right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
We'll get into that in a little bit. But you see Mike Johnson still going out there. He's blaming by still like today, like after the fact. blaming Biden's, quote, wide open border, saying that that played a role in the New Orleans attack. The perpetrator was born in Texas, served in the US military. This has zero to do with borders. But guess what? MAGA Mike Johnson does not care about that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
We see that also with somebody like Tom Holman. Tom Holman, who is the guy Um, who's the, uh, project 2025 guy who Donald Trump is making his borders are Tom Holman. Same thing. Donald Trump is, uh, Tom Holman is pushing this idea that we need to secure the border. This is the, by the way, the border has been more secure right now than it even was under the Trump administration.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
If you look at border crossings, they're at the lowest levels that they've been even since, uh,
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
the lowest levels of the trump administration so enough with that bs but the fact is and by the way we should have a secure border we should be protecting the border i agree but not every issue is a border issue this is not one of them and this is also just part of this disinformation campaign when you see a guy like tom holman pushing this idea and you saw tom holman also
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
It's the perfect example of how this Trump administration that's incoming is going to operate because he keeps going on Fox. He's been on Fox now multiple times and he just shoots from the hip with no facts. And so he was on Fox earlier today and he said something that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
He thinks that the attack in the cyber truck in Vegas and the incident in New Orleans, that they're likely connected and that they're both terrorist incidents. And then he was asked, so you got evidence of that? That's what law enforcement's telling you? And he's like, just a gut feeling. just a gut feeling. And it's like, listen, we don't need your gut feeling.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
I want to know the facts so that we can actually try to solve these issues so that we don't have these attacks or so that maybe our veterans need more care after they get home so they don't get radicalized. Maybe there's an issue with PTSD that we need to be more focused. We need to figure out what the roots of these issues are.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
This is going to keep happening over and over again while Tom Holman just shoots from the hip like an idiot. It's just going to keep happening.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Yeah. We had all of our researchers on it. Thanks to this community for enabling us to have this incredible research team who was able to dig this stuff up. Yesterday, I would say, decently early into it, we got wind that this guy was seemingly MAGA based on his posting history on his Facebook and other online profiles that we had seen.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
It made it all the more frustrating when we started seeing all these MAGA people out there pushing MAGA. this alternative narrative and so finally we were confident enough in our sourcing and our reporting to post our thing out and then of course the first thing is maga denial and then this morning when i woke up you saw the maga people trying to push a counter narrative uh which was that the guys
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
They called it his wife, but it was his ex-wife, had on Facebook posted anti-Trump stuff in 2016. And so they were saying because the guy's wife, who turned out to be his ex-wife who divorced him like eight years ago, didn't like Trump very much that she was responsible for this guy's act. Like they already tried to set the narrative by planting these seeds that don't really make sense and don't –
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Hold up under any sort of scrutiny and you just see that machine kick in and the way that it's elevated on the social media platforms, particularly X or Twitter or whatever under Elon Musk. It's designed to spread this these messages and it's why that why, quite frankly, that. Elon spent $44 billion to turn that into whatever it's worth now, $6 billion. I mean, a lot less.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
But the money wasn't even the point. The point is to control the messaging. And in order to get these lies out there, that's why we need to use our megaphone of truth every single day in order to combat this.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
and further get out what's actually happening and my only wish i mean i got many but my big wish in 2025 is that i wish people would stop rewarding these liars i wish the american people as a whole would stop rewarding the republicans for their obstructionism the republicans over and over make things worse
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
for the american people and i'm not saying the democrats are perfect by any means i think the democrats get it wrong a whole lot and i think they could push a lot harder in certain directions but you see time and time again the republicans totally torpedoing bills that would help people's lives going to the courts to get policies like student debt relief um taken away from people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
and then what happens is the american people i'm not saying everybody but enough people go the democrats can't do anything oh the democrats they promised student debt relief uh they only did x amount of billion dollars but what happened to all the rest it's like the republicans blocked it so why are you going to reward the republicans here and the issue that the democrats have to face if i'm being candid is that they get attacked on that very issue from both sides
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
It's the Democrats. They can't catch a break because they're being attacked by the MAGA people for the student debt relief, for example.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And then they're being attacked also by folks on the left saying that they didn't do enough and with people refusing to acknowledge that they certainly tried and put a lot of political capital into many of these things, but were blocked by the Republicans or in some cases blocked by people like Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, who were Democrats in wolves clothing, who-
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Happy New Year, Midas Mighty. Happy New Year, brothers. Happy New Year to our incredible mods. Thank you for everything you've done to help us out over this past year. And boy, do we have the fight of our lives ahead of us. I'm trying to think back to the last year where I was like, oh, that was a great past year. We had an amazing past year. I can't really think too much about it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
quite frankly, deserve a whole lot more scorn even than they have received for torpedoing much of President Biden's agenda that would have greatly improved people's lives, helped the working class, provided people with childcare, universal pre-K, higher minimum wage, all that stuff, which the Democrats pushed very hard to try to achieve, was torpedoed by these very bad actors, Jordy.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Here's the con job. Also, they use their lines, which I'm sure tests amazing. Right. I mean, what a great line to say. How
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
why are we giving our money to ukraine and and not to the american people the american people deserve to be who the money who are spending this money on sounds great oh yeah we should be giving money to the american people i'm not going to get into the fact that it's a total misunderstanding of how sending money to ukraine actually works and then it's actually uh money going to american manufacturers american uh weapons uh builders and people like that i'll
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
i'll put that aside for right now also but then you could go okay okay bet and by the way democrats are starting to do this a lot more right now we're going to get into this brilliant new strategy that democrats are cooking up in a little bit to fight back but you see that uh any time though okay so you don't
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Spend less money overseas because you want to spend it right here at home on the American people. What's better than, Jordy, to your point, than the PACT Act? We're going to help our veterans get health care from these toxic burn pits. We're going to help people. Oh, you know, a great idea. Let's help people get health care. Let's help people get universal health care.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Let's help people get universal pre-K. Let's get them everything that they need so that they don't have to worry about becoming homeless because they got in a medical incident. Let's make sure that they have everything they need so they could raise their family without worrying, okay? Let's do it. Let's pass this. It's a great idea. Let's spend this money right here at home. Republicans, hello?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Hello? Crickets. Every single time they fight against it, they go, oh, that's socialism, actually. You're a communist. We're never going to do that. We're never going to help you. It's time that the people just call their bluff, and this is what the Democrats are working on right now. We'll get into that. and say, okay, bet. Let's put your money where your mouth is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
I feel like every year, at least since 2016, I've been like, Thank God that year's behind us. I don't know. But we got a lot ahead of us right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Let's try to pass these policies. If you say that you want these things, let's see how honest you are. Let's let the American people see how honest you are, okay? Let's make it happen.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And that's why we got to be more united than ever as a community to take on the tall tasks that are going to be in front of us to defend, to protect democracy, to do everything we can to put our values forward, to protect them, and to ensure that democracy thrives here in the United States. Great to be here. I'm excited to get into all the news.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Rocket Money will alert you if your bills increase, if there's unusual spending, or if you're close to going over budget. And with their new goals feature, they will automatically save money for you whether you are paying off debt, saving for a house, or just building your emergency fund.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash MidasTouch today. That's rocketmoney.com slash MidasTouch. rocketmoney.com slash MidasTouch.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And oh my gosh, I mean, we're only, what, two days into the year. And There's been story after story after story already. It's a year's worth of news in two days. We're going to try to get through and dissect it all in this next hour or so. So without further ado, I'm going to toss it over to Jordi and ask Jordi, how are you doing today, buddy?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And most importantly, repeat it in the places where people are listening. If you're just going to say it in C-SPAN, I guess you're lucky that we have people on our team here like Aysen and others who watch that all day and clip those moments. But you're going to have to do more than just saying it on the House floor or the Senate floor, right? You're going to have to get on TV.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
You're going to have to get on podcasts. You're going to have to put out social media videos yourself, and you need to hammer home these issues. You have to hammer home this messaging day in and day out. Don't think that just because you say something once that people are going to understand it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
You got to say it literally every day, say it all the time, every single hour, just be pushing the same messaging. And look at how, frankly, look at how a lot of the Republicans do it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
You see how these stories, how like, for example, we were speaking about earlier with the way they spread the lies about migrants based on these two seemingly lone wolf attacks or incidents, whatever you want to call each of them. But it was very much a coordinated effort.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And I've done enough reading about these folks and speaking with people that I know that all those folks have group chats where they coordinate this messaging, where they say, this is what we're landing on. Go, go, go, go, go. And that's why all at once you always see all those same accounts every single time pushing the same exact messaging. Well, you know what? Democrats, you know what?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Anyone who is pro-democracy, y'all need to make those chat rooms also, however you want to do them. You guys need to set up this coordination so that you could put out messages of truth, so that you could put out messages in order to combat these lies, and that you could day in and day out hammer these people. Because here's the frustrating thing. You're right.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
You're at the upper hand on 99% of these issues, okay? So don't be afraid to own it. Don't be afraid to get out there and scream from the rooftops that you don't think credit card companies should be predatory, okay? Don't act like you're too above screaming from the rooftops that folks should have healthcare, okay?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Take Bernie as an example here and go and get the message out and hammer this home every single day. Make these people look like fools
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
She certainly didn't want to be seen in the same frame as him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
The simplest message is that billionaires don't have your best interests at heart. The simplest depiction of that is Mar-a-Lago and Donald Trump and Elon Musk. If Democrats are unable to make that clear over the next few years. They're in a whole lot of trouble.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
But I think they should be able to make that clear because it's just hitting you over the head so stupidly obvious in your face when you have the world's richest man who went from like 200 billion net worth to like
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
450 billion since donald trump won since you have trump would run all of his various schemes just the people the way they look at mar-a-lago the things they're doing at mar-a-lago the nepotism you see just all when you put all this together i think you have a pretty clear kind of idea of who these people are and who they are for and i just gotta say they're not for you and if you're even if you're a
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
A MAGA or somebody who's been attracted by MAGA rhetoric and you're somehow stumbled upon this show. First off, welcome. Hello. Nice to see you. Thank you for all the kind comments. But in reality, at a certain point, you have to realize that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
The things that these people have been shoveling your way, the hatred, the redirects, whether it's with transgender people or whether it's with the DEI conversations, all this stuff, it's all to divert you. It's all a head fake so that while you're looking the other way, they could pick your pocket.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And I think the sooner people realize that on all sides, quite frankly, the sooner people realize that billionaires are not going to have your interest at heart and that you need to find the people. And this could be people of any political range.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
You need to find the people who are actually putting forth policies that will help you and stop thinking that you are mythically going to become a billionaire in five years. Stop thinking that you are magically going to become Elon Musk. I'm sorry, the odds are not in your favor. But you can live a very good life. You can be taken care for.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
You can make sure that you don't fall into poverty because you have a medical bill that's too high and you had to go bankrupt. You could have all these things taken care of the same way that other modernized countries take care of their citizens on these very basic things. You could have that here. But there is one group of people who is stopping that. That is the billionaires in this country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
So are they going to- Attacking bans on automation. What did you say? Elon attacking bans on automation, attacking basically what Trump told the union workers that he would be for.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And let me just say, let me say this one also, because this is, we're in 2025 now. You know what it means now that it's 2025? That means that Medicare's, the new $2,000 cap on prescription drugs from the Inflation Reduction Act goes fully into effect.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
So this will be the first year that folks get to experience the savings, the benefits from the Inflation Reduction Act under Medicare with a $2,000 cap on prescription drugs. That's going to save people on Medicare a whole lot of money this year.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And that's why I think it's important that we need to be saying that and screaming that from the rooftops right now, because you know damn well that once January 20th hits and people start seeing those prices come down, that there are going to be plenty of people out there.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
And there's going to be people like Donald Trump who are going to be trying to take credit for those caps that President Biden was able to get passed. So that's why we always need to be campaigning.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
If you have a phone, you have a podcast app. If you got an iPhone, you got Apple Podcasts, and you may also have Spotify. You could add it on both.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
Yeah, and this is something that happens now after every single incident. We see this over and over, that the first instinct of everybody, and frankly, I will say this is a both sides issue in a lot of cases, but MAGA has particularly weaponized this in really heinous ways and is abetted by the platforms like Elon Musk's X, which help push the disinformation.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
But the second any of these incidents occur, what's the first thing you see on social media? It's the narrative building. the narrative building kicks off immediately and with when it comes to republicans when it comes to maga the narrative always goes in one direction and that is migrants migrants migrants migrants the facts don't matter at all whatsoever they have already determined
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
what the fake facts are in their mind that they are going to push and they coordinate this attack in order to set it in the stone in order to set it in people's minds that this is the fault of migrants and you should be afraid of migrants and we need our power in order to do x y and z we see this over and over and over again and they jump the gun every single time and then inevitably we sit back and we wait for the actual story to come out we wait for the
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
actual law enforcement authorities. We wait for the actual reporting to come out. And inevitably, nine times out of 10, it disputes what the Marjorie Taylor Greene's, what the Benny Johnson's, what the Donald Trump's, what all of them had been pushing for hours and hours and hours. But here's the issue with our current media ecosystem.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
By the time the truth is out there, the lie has went around the world a dozen times, if not more, and people think that that is the truth. I bet you could even ask folks right now about the Cybertruck incident and about the New Orleans attack. I bet you could ask them. I bet a lot of these MAGA people
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
will still be saying the false information that they were fed and that they were spreading yesterday in spite of the fact that it has already been disputed and forcefully disputed. But that's the information age we live in right now, unfortunately, where everybody wants to be first rather than be correct. And in the case of MAGA, it's not about being first or correct.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
It's about getting the narrative out first. It's not about the information. It's about the message that they want to push, that they want to drill into people's minds. Truth be damned. We see this over and over and over again. It's not the first time and it certainly will not be the last time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
clearly the issue jordy these are very serious issues that you touched on right yes and so when something like this occurs you want to be able to break down exactly what the hell happened here right how did this individual who was in the u.s army who grew up in texas how did this person become radicalized they weren't in the military that long ago how did they become radicalized
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch RESPONDS to BREAKING NEWS - 1.2.25
How did they become sympathetic towards ISIS? The guy apparently had an ISIS. How did that occur? A U.S. citizen born in Texas. How does that happen? You want the actual facts and you want to be able to figure out exactly how we got from point A to point B. Somebody fighting for our country to somebody fighting against our country in our homeland.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
Yeah, I agree, by the way. I'm pretty sure he thinks the Declaration of Independence is the Constitution. But everything he does, anytime he answers a question, it's just like he's the kid who has to give the presentation on his book report, but he didn't read the book. He's like, oh, the Declaration of Independence.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
You know, it's like when you declare, you know, and he could have just said independence and he would have been more accurate with his answer. But, you know, it's like a declaration of, I don't know, unity and family.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
This episode of the Midas Touch Podcast is brought to you by Graza. And yes, it's my new favorite olive oil. It's fresh, never blended, and comes from a single type of olive, the Pocual, straight out of high-end Spain, where over half the world's olive oil is made. So what makes Graza so good? First, its single origin, which means no mystery blends, just pure, flavorful oil you can actually trust.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
What's up, Ben? What's up, Jordy? What's up, Midas, Mighty, everybody watching and listening. Oh my gosh, it's been an absolutely bizarre week to say the least, another week of chaos. And we're in a place right now where just the objective data is so horrific by every single metric. Ben, you already did the letters. I'm not gonna go through the letters again.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
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The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
Personally, I love using Graza. It's perfect for when I'm roasting veggies. Super clean, super flavorful, and way easier than my old olive oil setup. I've also been making some amazing salad dressings with the Drizzle oil. It's so good, so convenient, I don't think I could ever go back to anything else.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
So head to Graza.co and use code Midas to get 10% off of Trio, which includes sizzle, frizzle, and drizzle, and get to cooking your next chef quality meal. That's Graza.co and use Midas, M-E-I-D-A-S.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
I'm showing Terry Moran's reaction to Trump saying the Declaration of Independence on the loop, which is he seems flustered by it, to say the least.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
But on all the letters that Ben mentioned, everything is so horrific that they just need to start. They just lie. They just lie about everything. They didn't start lying. They've been lying about everything, but they just literally make up things. The economy is terrible. They say it's great. Prices are up. They say prices are down. The sky is blue. They say the sky is green.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
I think what the person was trying to do was draw some sort of comparison, like the marijuana leaf is an M, the smiley means S, a cross means one, and a skull means three for some reason. I think that's, they were trying to say that this was a code, okay? And Trump interpreted this image as actually being an actual, a real tattoo of what's on him.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
And there were so many opportunities, Ben and Jordi, where Terry Moran tried to even bail Trump out of that one. Okay, okay, let's move on. Let's go to Ukraine, okay? Do you really think that? Oh, boy, let's do Ukraine. And Trump just kept pulling him back and pulling him back. No, we need to talk about this. Why won't you just admit that it actually says that on his knuckles?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
It's just lie after lie after lie, and they get more and more ridiculous. And right now, Ben, you're right. When I watch these press briefings, And especially like this new media briefing that they have where they bring in these MAGA propagandists into the Oval Office, these really just odd, weird people to speak and just spread the White House propaganda.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
I've got the best screenshot of this moment right here, if I could find it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
It is one of the cringiest things that I have ever seen. and part of it's like a little kind of funny to watch you're like this is so just weird and odd but then you're like oh no this is like the president of the united states though so like it may it would be funny if this was an snl sketch but this is real life and this is just north korea this is russia And it is actually horrifying to watch.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
Okay, so you know what it looks like? So I used to work for, you know, film and TV and I used to work on, I used to work at a TV show and they had a, like a museum at Warner Brothers. I worked on the Warner Brothers lot. And- At the museum, they show you how they do, like on the tour, the Warner Brothers tour, they show you how they do the Lord of the Rings shots, forced perspective.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
And the forced perspective, they show you how like the people look giant and the people look really tiny. And they're like just the slight differences that they do, the way they move the camera, the way they have the camera set up, the positioning they have. They have somebody a little in front, somebody a little behind.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
and it makes somebody appear like a giant and somebody looked really tiny and they did these real in-camera effects in lord of the rings and when you do it it's you know it's it's really cool you sit there you look like a giant next to somebody or you look really tiny next to somebody it looks like the forced perspective effects in lord of the rings that they have on this warner brothers tour when you look at these images like like trump looks like a hobbit
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
Ben, I want to give you a shout out for your incredible job moderating the first ever Democratic governor town hall hosted here on the Midas Touch Network. And I want to thank everybody out there who watched and listened to the Democratic governor town hall. It's available right now. on the Midas Touch podcast. Check it out on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify. It's also on our YouTube channel.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
And thank you to everybody who submitted your incredible questions. I hope that you got a chance to actually be aired and speak directly to the governor. I thought that was super cool, a way to get the Midas Mighty directly in touch with some of the people leading our nation. Jordi, good to see you. How are you doing over there?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
And those people, by the way, that those people, if you look at the list on Twitter of like who are the top disinformation spreaders, who like it's community noted fact check the most, who spreads the most lies. It's literally the people in that room.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
And that guy in particular who asked that question at one point was kicked off Elon's Twitter, like not even the old Twitter, but kicked off Elon's Twitter because he literally posted child porn on Twitter. That guy was kicked off Twitter and then Elon brought him back because the MAGA people were like, bring him back. You know, he's a good guy. Bring him back.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
This is the caliber of person that they are putting in this press briefing room to ask these deranged questions that look straight out of North Korea.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I think it comes down to that's why, you know, when we talk about this show and we speak about what's happening, particularly at this moment in time, it's really not an issue of left, right, center, whatever you want to call it. It's not an issue of Democrat, Republican, Independent, Green Party, whatever you want. This is just like what's reality and what's fake.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
It's fact versus fiction. It's truth over lies. And what we're seeing every day is just this intense gaslighting campaign. And it ties it together when you see those quote unquote new media briefings that they're doing where they bring in the propagandists. They bring in the people who are the biggest purveyors of the disinformation to get in there to help them spread their disinformation.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
Because as I've said on the show before, The only way this movement operates or works, the only way it can survive is if people buy into these lies and if there are enablers. And so they need to continue to propagate these lies because without the lies, the reality that lies underneath is really dark and also really horrific for them, really bad, objectively speaking.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
These hundred days of Trump have been the worst hundred days of any president that we have seen in history. I'm talking about objective facts. When you look at economic performance, when you look at the stock market, when you look at relationships with our allies, it's not a Democrat versus Republican issue. It's not a political thing right now.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
It's do you want to believe in what is actually happening or do you want to believe in this thing?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
fake this fraud this phony and accept everything that he has to say and that's the decision that lies before you hey i know what your answer is here but it's up to you to help continue to spread the truth and so thanks for listening to you know this episode and all episodes of the midas touch podcast i want to make sure also that everybody out there make sure you add the midas touch podcast on apple podcasts on spotify and by the way any podcast app will do
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
Add it. A lot of these apps like Apple and Spotify, they also have a place where you could leave a five-star review. If you could leave a five-star review, write a nice note about the show, we'd appreciate it. Help us fight back against the quote-unquote review bombing by the MAGAs who try to take our show down. You guys could stand up to that by leaving a review. It only takes a minute.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
And thank you for all your support. Thanks to everybody who tuned in to that Democratic town hall that we hosted the other day. We hope to do more of those also. I'd love to hear in the comments who else you would like to see in future events like that. You know, I heard some people get all the governors. Listen, we can't have 50 governors.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
But we're going to try to do a lot more of those events and make Midas Touch the go-to place for when you want to hear real conversations, when you want to hear real discussions about the most important issues facing our country. You know that you could find them here on the Midas Touch Network, and that is our promise to you. Jordi.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
Right. And now I'm watching live feeds of the Los Angeles port, wondering why there are no cargo ships in the port. That's what my life has come to under this administration. That, checking the Dow futures, all these sort of ominous warning signs that you never had to look at before. I thought, and we know Trump's a liar. I'm going to start there, but I thought he was like kind of only a liar.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
I didn't realize how actually stupid he is until this interview, I think, because this interview really solidified some things for me, because there was that moment right there where he shows that like, he legitimately doesn't know what a tariff is like at He doesn't know who's actually paying the tariffs, trying to eat the tariff. That doesn't even make any sense. China can't eat the tariff.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
They're supposed to give away money when they give away the product. How does China eat the tariff? What does that even mean? It doesn't mean anything. It literally is just a total lack of understanding.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
we'll show later on the the ms-13 clip when he actually thought the letters ms-13 were on abrigo garcia's uh uh knuckles and that they weren't just put there by and i won't just say photoshopped because then they'll say oh we didn't use photoshop we used the apple photos app but they put the text they overlaid the text on his thumbnail on his knuckles and he tried but donald trump actually appeared to believe in that interview that that was actually the tattoo that abrigo garcia had
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
This interview really solidified for me, like just how dumb he is actually. And that a lot of his lies come from his stupidity and the people around him not wanting to correct his stupidity. So his stupidity ends up being written into law. That's what happened with the tariff formula at the end of the day, right? That's what's happening with all of these various issues.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
And this interview, this was at ABC, right, Ben? This was Trump at his most deranged. This is Trump. This reminded me of, this was his inject bleach moment for 2025. That's what I saw during this interview or that interview with Jonathan Swan. Remember the interview during COVID where he said, it is what it is. It is what it is.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
MeidasTouch Full Podcast - 5/2/25
His energy in this felt like that, but far more demented and incoherent. And he was lashing out because I think he was really called out and cornered on many of these issues because he was just flat out wrong on them. He was actually confronted finally by an interviewer who was willing to tell him, no, the sky is actually blue, and he could not handle the reality.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, some of the things you may have missed when we were off microphone. It's the most wonderful time of the year. It's our bloopers.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Maybe you should, Alice. You've frozen, so now would be a good time to do it. Okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I love that one dude. He says like never have money mustache or Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey. But I like to do them. Dave, you need credit, man.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And then I'll record on here when you're ready to go live.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, no, but I mean, we're going to upload this to YouTube, so.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, they spent at least a million dollars on that, at least.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
This was a, this was a. It was just a preliminary hearing to talk about how the evidentiary hearing is going to go.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Let's. Record. There we go. There we go. All right. Now we're in business. Now we're in. We're doing it live.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Anyway. Okay. I want y'all to know, Alice doesn't feel well, but she's powering through for you.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah. I can kind of hear it in your voice. You sound like you're a little under the weather. Do you really? I can't hear it. Just a little.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
You're amazing. You're amazing at best. So are you.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
all right well we won't chit chat we'll just get started that's okay i love chit chatting with you i know but i want i don't want you to be i want you to not feel well okay here we go you ready everybody chat ready ready ready okay here we go let me pause here let me pause here this is in the wrong place hold on this is in the wrong place i gotta move this
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Once you have that, you have this office full of people who have been litigating this case for 20 years, you know, the case. And instead of trusting those people, you hire your plaintiff firm buddies. So you can throw them some money their way, probably because they supported your election into the position. I mean, if he was elected or appointed, but this is all the prosecutors after Darby. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So we're going to dive in. It's recording locally. So just one thing. We'll stop. I'll end the stream. And if you could wait five seconds, it'll upload. And then we'll have your... your, your stuff. Does that make sense? Sure. Awesome. Awesome. Okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
No, there's no reason to because she's not on there.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Who's everybody pulling for? I'm kind of for the bills. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay, we are recording. Okay, here we go. Here we go.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, I've always wanted to call you mean. So let's see. Hold on. Hold on. Just quit pressuring me. Badgering me. Badger, badger, badger.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
That's right there. I mean, you can look at it. You see it over my shoulder? See it? Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
All right, so we're at the... We're at the trial. The trial.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't think I'll be coming up with any funny stories. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
A little way to wear much. Just get some red shorts.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I feel like I've been watching this trial nonstop. So, yeah. All right, here we go.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I know, there's so much. And I feel like all of it turns into... I've been skipping around, too. Where are some witnesses who don't matter? Like, give me a... I know. That's the problem. I agree. Did we talk about this in the last episode? I don't know if we did or not. Where because everybody's involved in the conspiracy- Because there's so many witnesses and they all matter.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't want to do Monday. I'm fine doing Tuesday. We can do Tuesday. It's fine.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Actually, no. We won't be done at all because neither one of those are our podcast.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah, but we need to get more ahead on this case. We need to get further ahead on this case.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So I could record Sunday, but I could not record Saturday.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's totally up to you. I'm fine with doing tomorrow. If you don't want to do tomorrow.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
There's so much to do. Okay. The problem is I'm going to be gone. I'm trying to figure out if I can record remotely. Wait, how long are you gone for? We're going to go on like a two week trip.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah. The code and rules. Wait. How many deep questions? What did I hear say? Do I sound okay to you guys?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So I just want to make sure. I don't know. I don't know why I decided to do this, but this Karen Reid case is stressing me out.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, we've got to get far enough ahead. Once we start it, we've got to finish it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I can't do Friday night and I can't do Saturday night. I could do Sunday night and I don't care about Father's Day. It's irrelevant to me. I think that might be... But if you care about Father's Day, then...
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So basically, we'll let you guys know tomorrow if we're going to testify.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I got to write it as soon as possible.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I ain't working past five. I'm a government lawyer.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, no, I'm I actually, I changed into these headphones last time and they worked better this time. They don't. It's fine. I can hear myself. It's fine. It's fine. As long as there's no static and it doesn't sound tinny. It's fine. Great. Okay. We ready to go? Yeah. Let's do this.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So we should do a live podcast, which is basically just the us talking about things like this. That was terrible.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So people want you to do a cooking podcast. Are you familiar with this?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's like a YouTube. So you cook while talking about a true crime case.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, you know, my little girl loves noodles, Asian noodles.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's just really interesting that the defining food from Italy came from Marco Polo.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Udon is my favorite. Followed closely by ramen. I'm going to be honest with you. The Chinese have the worst noodles. I'm sorry.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So I like pho and I like udon so much. I love ramen. The problem is Chinese food is so defined by the like Americanized industrial Chinese food.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Right. I think for the recording purposes will be fine. But let me see if I can use my phones.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
dude well no i like orange chicken but no no like that i love china i love going to china the great thing about china if you guys can go to china china powerful country incredibly cheap you can go to china and not have that much money you go you walk into a restaurant and you're a god you like sit down and you order like you're basically like give me one of everything and they're like that'll be three dollars and you're like
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
okay fine i'll give you and they're like and you can keep the chopsticks yeah and they're like and they just it's like all this amazing food shows up it's incredible I mean, yeah. Big fan. But I've never had noodles in China that blew me away.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Anyways, my daughter loves big noodles, which is udon because they're thicker and bigger.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
They are easier to pick up. She's learning how to use the chopsticks.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
My local, I'll say this, since all that weirdness happened, even though I don't think it was attacked, my home internet has taken a huge hit. And I'm not sure exactly what's going on. Are you AT&T? No.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
If I could only eat one thing, noodles would be high on the list.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I love Asian food. I mean, frankly, if I had to pick one type of food, Asian food would be the food I would pick. Especially because if you get to pick Asian food, you're like, there's so much stuff.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Oh, absolutely. I love Indian food. If you can keep Indian food in the family of Asian food, then it just... Yeah, I totally agree. And I love Afghan food. I mean, like all that.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah, this is not an ad, but HelloFresh is amazing. Yeah. Dumplings. The only thing Asians don't do well.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Right. And I will say this. I really like Asian beer.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah. But it's like the, it's like German beer. So American beer is all like crappy Asian beer. If you think about it. Because Budweiser, Miller, Coors, all that, it's like crappy rice-based beer. I mean, it's just crappy beer. But all these German companies went to Asia. So, like, Qingdao, for instance, was a German company that was nationalized by the Chinese during the revolution. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But anyways, I really like... Like Qingdao, Sapporo, Asahi, all that stuff. It's great. Tiger.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We're Spectrum. You're weird, too? Do I sound weird to you?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It is fried dough. It's just so good. So I'm trying to think. Oh, God. The greatest. I mean. Okay. So I've told you guys about. And I'm sorry. Alice is probably like, I'm going to go work on stuff. We've been doing this for an hour and 45 minutes.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So all of you who are paying $3, I expect a $2 increase. I mean, $5 from now on. Anyways, so the greatest, and I'm interested to hear what you think about this. So in my mind, foie gras, you know how I feel about it. I love it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Amazing. My German steak. My German steak was amazing. Right. The other food that I would put right up there at the very top, Shanghai soup dumplings. Yes.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
This sounds gross. Is that right? Did I say that right? Sholong Bai?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
That's weird. Maybe, maybe someone's attacking our, our show. They're coming after us.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, why don't you say it for me? You're the one who speaks Chinese.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Because they've been talking to me too much? Is it me? Is it my fault?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. Before we stopped, I want to try and see if I can figure out my, my sound.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
That's the way it's supposed to be. Guys, the soup – so dumplings, it's literally – you know what a dumpling is? It has a – like a meatball – In the middle. I don't know what it's made of. And then boiling soup inside a dumpling.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
The last time I was in Shanghai was for Chinese New Year in 2013. And it was incredible. I've never seen anything like it. The only way you've ever seen anything like it is if you've been in war.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
was like the cheap soup dumplings. And the second story were like the better, more expensive soup dumplings. And the third story were the really good soup dumplings. But if you've never had soup dumplings.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. We've talked enough. Go work. I'm sorry. Sorry. We've kept you guys so long.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's true. You're not stuck here. You're not required to be here. Just kidding. We've been recording this whole time.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah, we never stopped recording. So this will all be in bloopers sometime later, I guess.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't know if I need to get a new connection from the box to... It doesn't feel like a technical issue.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It may be a software issue. I may need to download a driver or something.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's like it shorts. I don't really know what's going on with it. I should try and figure that out at some point instead of just ignoring it and hoping it'll go away.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
All right, let me see. Let me get you purled over real quick.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Just for the record, if you're curious, the standard for this kind of thing.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Oh, did I go away? You went away. See, I was just talking like crazy.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
What do you think we should do? Should we keep going or should we stop?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
If you think we can get through the rest of it down to the end of the trial, next episode.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
No. But for the sake of the flow of the series, the next episode should end before the new timeline starts. Does that make sense?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, we could do... And the problem with doing Ed Gunther and all the blood stuff is then Nancy Stout is also the blood stuff.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Hmm. Hmm. Well, I just realized that I don't have to have, I've had my headphones running through another thing and I didn't actually have to do that. I can just plug it directly into the box. So I did that. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And then... Because all that testimony flows together. And then basically... Is this episode five? This is episode five. So we can do all of that for episode six. Six. And then seven, we start the new timeline. And then eight.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We, yeah. So that works out. If you think we can do that.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Episode seven could be long. Yeah. But it could be very long. But that's why in episode six, I want to get through the rest of this.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. We got this. So you think we stop here then? I think so. That's what you're saying. Okay. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's all about blood. And then Alice Scott. Finally get to Alice Scott.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah, you know how it is. It's a disease that just never lets go. Okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, I mean, it wasn't really the first day of school. We went to school. We saw the classrooms. We got a bunch of information.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, it was the first day, but it was like you show up and hang out for a while, meet everybody, and then leave.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We're both a little sleepy, huh? Whatever. However you want to roll.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
People are talking about all your cases that you've been covering, Alice, on your other podcast.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
You guys need to go leave reviews on Apple. Leave a five-star review for City Confidential or American Justice. You don't need to leave reviews. And leave a question, and we'll answer it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
They could watch the old episodes if they want to hear. I mean, look, they were great narrators. They were awesome. I grew up on those voices. Yeah, and you are just picking up the mantle that they've laid down. I think those guys are dead.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Is he alive? Is Bill Curtis still alive? I don't know if he's still alive.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
All right. Well, you have worked. Very hard. You deserve a break.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Sorry, Bill. Bill's enjoying a well-deserved retirement. He deserves it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Exactly. I agree. Okay, I don't know when we're going to record again. Sometime early next week.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So I'll pick the episode. I don't know which one we're going to do. And maybe if it takes two episodes to do, we can do it twice. If it's a one-episoder, we'll just do one. Does that make sense? Yeah. Because now, I mean, we've done two legal briefs, so we don't need to do legal briefs.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Turn mine up just a little bit. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I'd be like, give me the steroids. Grandma's going to get addicted to it. Give me the steroids. I want the steroids.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
you okay but i'm very excited for taylor's boyfriend for winning yeah i was happy for her lana was there that was a good that was a good ball game i you know i just it irritated me the 49ers just irritated me like i didn't care who won they just irritated me because everything they did what did they do it's like they didn't know how to play football anymore or coach football or call plays or do anything they just like this is true
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But it's little things like not knowing the rules. You would think you would know the rules going into the game.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But whatever. The better prepared team won. So good for them.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So we may or may not be back tomorrow. It's going to be on Alice Fields. We may just take the rest of the week off.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's a rough time. I'm glad I'm not sick for once in a while.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Got to go to ZocDoc, Alice. I do have to go to ZocDoc.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's always tomorrow. We'll see you guys later. Love y'all. Mean it. Bye. Bye.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We went to look at elementary schools and talk about breaking the heart.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
True. But I feel like if it was like that, you guys would hear that.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Whatever. What do you guys think? Does it sound okay? It sounds okay to you guys. It's just me. Is that what I'm hearing?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's already getting fired up. It just irritates me.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So we got to talk about, that's Leo Schofield. That's the wrong one. Yeah, we got to talk about all the stuff from the trial and then get into theories. All right, we're good. We're good. Let's record one more episode.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
You have a job. Because I was like, what is happening? You have a job to do. Do your job.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I would rather do the prosecutors. Because I don't like to stay too far ahead on legal briefs because it's supposed to be breaking news.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I haven't tried it yet. It's not full, is it? No, it's got plenty.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't like politicians who make decisions based on getting to sound good in a press release.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah, I think we're being hacked. I like film. I like physical pictures. They mean so much more to you.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Like... The 90s and the 2000s, late 90s, 2000s destroyed so many things that now we wish we had. Like I was talking about computers. My wife wants to buy a computer, a new computer. I was like, wouldn't it be great if it was like the old days and you could go to a store and actually like look at the computers and think about like how you want to use it? It's like, you can't do that now.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Nobody actually has computers anymore. You just have to buy whatever's, you know, online. That's just the way it is. And it's like, that's not cool. Where are malls? I wish malls. Bring the malls back. Blame.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I think our internet got like attacked. I really do.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't know what Best Buy is y'all are going to say. My Best Buy doesn't have anything in the store. So you go into that place and it looks like the zombie apocalypse happened.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Here's the aisle where all the stuff would be if we had it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
You can reship the store, which doesn't help me accomplish the thing I want to accomplish.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Exactly. Exactly. It's just like ridiculous. Anyway.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
How about the next time we see you, all our equipment will work again?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't really know what all is going on. I don't know what's going on. My recording and stuff and microphone and everything is working fine.
The Prosecutors
The Menendez Brothers' Fight for Freedom, from Crime Scene Weekly
Hey listeners, we're bringing you something special this week. We all know one true crime podcast is never enough. So we wanted to encourage you to check out a new podcast from our friends at ABC Audio called The Crime Scene Weekly. The Crime Scene Weekly is your guide to all the latest headlines in crime.
The Prosecutors
The Menendez Brothers' Fight for Freedom, from Crime Scene Weekly
Each week, ABC News correspondent Brad Milkey sits down with the journalists covering the cases who have direct access to survivors, investigators, and families searching for answers. from the discovery of grisly new cases to breakthroughs in cases we just can't stop thinking about. You'll hear the latest developments and the larger context from the people who know these stories best.
The Prosecutors
The Menendez Brothers' Fight for Freedom, from Crime Scene Weekly
That was a clip from the Crime Scene Weekly. To hear the rest of the episode, including real courtroom audio obtained by ABC News, find the Crime Scene Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.
The Prosecutors
The Menendez Brothers' Fight for Freedom, from Crime Scene Weekly
This is True Crime in Real Time, revealing what's happening now and what happens next.
The Prosecutors
The Menendez Brothers' Fight for Freedom, from Crime Scene Weekly
In the latest episode, Brad sits down with ABC News reporter Matt Gutman about the re-sentencing efforts in the 35-year-old case of the Menendez brothers, Eric and Lyle Menendez, who were charged with the murder of their parents in 1989.
The Prosecutors
The Menendez Brothers' Fight for Freedom, from Crime Scene Weekly
You'll hear how social stigmas about masculinity and power factored into the original sentencing of the case and get insights into the brothers' present-day fight for their freedom. Keep listening to hear the first few minutes of the episode. If you like it, find the Crime Scene Weekly on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts to hear the rest.
The Prosecutors
The Menendez Brothers' Fight for Freedom, from Crime Scene Weekly
New episodes drop every Wednesday. Now, here's the clip.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Hey guys, it's Alice and Brett. And if you're enjoying The Prosecutors, we've got something you need to check out. It's the brand new Crime House original series, Clues, hosted by Morgan Absher and Kaylin Moore. And if their names sound familiar to you, that's because Morgan hosts the podcast, Two Hot Takes, and Kaylin hosts the podcast, Heart Starts Pounding.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
And they're coming together to host this series, Clues.
The Prosecutors
Introducing: Clues with Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Thank you for listening. To check out the rest of this episode and so much more, make sure to follow Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaylin Moore. Just search for Clues wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Wednesday.
The Prosecutors
Killer Minds
Hey, everyone. It's Alison Brett. If you're loving the prosecutors, you need to check out the new podcast, Killer Minds, hosted by licensed forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and Crime House's Vanessa Richardson.
The Prosecutors
Killer Minds
Each episode of Killer Minds features a deep dive into the psychology of a notorious murderer, from infamous serial killers to ruthless cult leaders, deadly exes, and terrifying spree killers.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my epic co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So then there's Jesse Miskelly. Like Jason and Damien, Jesse was a kid from a broken home. His challenges included a mild intellectual disability. He was a high school dropout, and Jesse was known to be generally kind but prone to violent outbursts throughout his life. He was an aspiring professional wrestler. Rassler, I guess I should say.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And Jesse did odd jobs to make ends meet and to support his dad and his dad's sort of many different live-in girlfriends that cycled through the house. And he was known to both Jason and Damien, though to what extent they hung out is hard to say. You know, we talk about how these cases, they all have similarities. The same thing that sort of plagued the Adnan Saeed case, the
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
How close are Adnan and Jay? Why would Adnan and Jay be together? There's a similar theme throughout this case. Damien and Jason are obviously friends. They are best friends, and there's no one who doubts that. But the extent to which Jesse, the third member of this trio, was a friend is disputed. We're going to talk about this a lot.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We're going to talk about a lot of different times they hung out, how they got to know each other, everything else. But just know that is one of those questions that remains, sort of hangs over Jesse. And in fact, Damien would later deny they were friends, explaining in only the way that Damien can. Damien, as you will see throughout this, does himself no favors.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And this is just another example of him sort of popping off. But he says, hey, didn't like him. Jason Baldwin, on the other hand... would refer to Damien and Jesse as his two best friends in a 2012 interview. Whether that is colored by the struggle they went through together is hard to say.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I also learned, and this is probably the most important fact about Jesse, is that he was an Alabama fan, or at least a bandwagon fan. When he was arrested, he had an Alabama flag hanging over his bed. Now, this was 1993, and Alabama, as it is often want to do, had just won the national championship, so it's possible he's just glomming on to that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But nevertheless, I'm going to give Jesse credit for being an Alabama fan. Then there's Dominique Teer. Dominique Teer is Damien's girlfriend. During the run-up to the trial, was very pregnant with his child, would eventually have that child. Take the baby to trial. The original Paradise Lost is like a fever dream. It is one of the strangest things you will ever watch.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
It is like some bizarre time capsule, not only to a different time, but to a different world. Yeah, weird 90s.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Have you gotten to the part where the guy asks one of the mothers if she's thought about killing herself yet? Have you gotten to the part where they're shooting the pumpkins? Have you gotten to the part where they lock the forest on fire?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Yeah, so for those of you who are joining us for the first time for this coverage, I do want to note, typically when we do these long series, we start off with a little bit more introduction. So if you just want to dive right in, you might want to skip ahead a few minutes. But this is a case that obviously is huge. It's one of the first true crime cases. It happened.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And what's interesting about it, one thing, if you've seen the staircase, the staircase is similar, but it fails at what it sets out to do. Because initially the staircase wants to have that sort of access with both sides. And initially it gets a little bit of it. If you've seen the staircase in the earliest episodes, there's interaction with the prosecution.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But the prosecution very quickly figured out that the staircase guys weren't on their side. Now, whether you believe this story or not, the HBO documentarians who went down to West Memphis to film this documentary claimed that they went in. I mean, I wouldn't even say they were neutral.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
They went in assuming everyone was guilty and they were filming this documentary about this horrible thing that happened, this terrible murder, these murders of these three young boys, this death of innocence type thing, and then eventually came to believe that the West Memphis three were innocent. Whatever the case, they had unprecedented access to both sides.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So you see the prosecutors speaking to the family about the strength of their case, particularly during one pivotal moment. You see the judge is giving interviews, the defense attorneys discussing with their clients various things. You see all that. It's a fascinating case and a fascinating documentary. It's worth watching. As they go on, they get worse, frankly. I mean, the first one is amazing.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
The second one is a complete disaster. The third one is better. It is a very interesting work. And if you haven't seen it and you're a fan of true crime, you need to watch it. The one thing I will warn you, both the first and the third episode are very liberal. And this is true of West of Memphis, too. in using photographs and videos of the children dead, their dead nude bodies.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I mean, it is shocking how cavalier both documentaries were about doing that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
At least skip the first five minutes.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
It comes up more, but you can avoid it somewhat if you don't watch the first five minutes, which are the crime scene video. So it's literally a police officer walking around with a video camera, and the bodies of the children are just on the side of this ditch bank where they're going to be found, as we're going to discuss. So that's Dominique Teer.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
She becomes a character just like everybody else in this case and may or may not have a bigger role in the case, depending on who you believe. Moving on from the West Memphis Three and Dominique to the victims in this case. Stevie Branch. Stevie was the son of Pam Hobbs and his stepfather, Terry Hobbs. Stevie loved to sing and pretend he was a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Kicked off true crime for a lot of people. A lot of people who are huge true crime fans now grew up with the Paradise Lost documentaries. And that's how they got into this.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He was also a ladies' man who considered Michael Moore's older sister, Dawn, to be his girlfriend. And he was a big brother to his sister, Amanda.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
i think the world when this happened because it was truly watching innocence disappear before our eyes when they were murdered and for me and i've talked about this before my sort of love of true crime came from a love of mysteries and i'd read books about mysteries and watch documentaries and sort of ran out of those and someone suggested paradise lost
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So Paradise Lost and In Cold Blood by Truman Capote were sort of my introduction to true crime. And so I watched these documentaries back 10 years ago. And obviously this was shocking, but watching it now and diving into this case now, and we talk about this all the time, but it's just true. Like it really hits different now that I have a little boy and a little girl. It really hits different.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And everything about those opening scenes are just They're tough. And we don't normally give trigger warnings because we figure you're coming to true crime. But this case has a lot of difficult stuff. And we're going to talk about a lot of it. And just the horrific things that were done. These sweet eight year old kids can never be forgotten.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So Brian Ridge is a pretty big deal and he's there for a lot of things. We're gonna tell the story of the finding of the bodies and I can imagine it was probably something that haunted him for the rest of his life. So then there's Sergeant Mike Allen. He was also one of the detectives on the case and he was present when the bodies were found and he helped pull the bodies from the creek.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
These bodies were essentially found underwater. They had been hidden in the creek, in the middle of this tiny little patch of woods that wasn't very big at all. And these detectives who were looking for them, the kids were missing at the time, are finding them in the water. Then there's Detective Bill Durham. He comes up a lot.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He was one of the detectives on the case, and he was the polygraph administrator for the West Memphis Police. So he gave dozens of people polygraphs, and his polygraphs will be important and will be contested later in the case. Gary Gitchell. He is the head of the West Memphis Detective Division and the lead on the case.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This essentially was the last case in a very distinguished career for Detective Gitchell, and he was committed to solving this case, and he is the person who would extract the confession from Jesse Miskelly, and he would retire as a West Memphis detective after both trials were complete. Then there's John Fogelman. He is the lead prosecutor in the West Memphis Three.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
You get to know him well when you watch the documentaries. And he is assisted by Brent Davis. Davis would actually remain in the prosecutor's office for much longer. Fogelman would very shortly after this go on to be elected to be a judge and was a very successful and distinguished judge for a very long time. Davis would remain in the office and would defend these convictions. And that was his job.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
with Fogelman having gone on. Fogelman is an interesting guy. He's been in West Memphis for forever. His family was this sort of legendary family. There is the second most famous, I don't know, it depends on what kind of history nerd you are. Are you a true crime history nerd or a history history nerd?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
The most famous thing that happened in West Memphis before this, definitely, was the sinking of the Sultana. It was a large riverboat towards the end of the Civil War, or after the end of the Civil War, It was transporting a large number of former Union prisoners of war up from New Orleans.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
They were going home to various places in the North and it caught fire in what is the deadliest maritime disaster in the history of the United States. Thousands of people died. Horrific thing. Fogelman's, the reason I'm telling the story, Fogelman's great, great, great grandfather was the dock manager for West Memphis. And so he was responsible for saving Fogelman.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Some of the people who were saved, the several hundred people who were saved, obviously they couldn't save everyone or even most of the people there. So he actually, if you're watching the documentary and when they show Fogelman's office, you will see a picture of the sultana over his shoulder because he had it framed and on his wall.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So that's the second most famous thing that ever happened in West Memphis before this occurred. And a Fogelman was involved.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And just to give you some idea, the Adnan Syed case with 14 episodes was the longest series we've ever done. The outline in this case is twice as long as the Adnan Syed case. So we're going to be here for a while.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I do want to say, you know, I've thought about this a lot because I know there are some of you who are very excited and some of you who are not excited at all and are very sad that we're going to be covering this until, I don't know, October. But one thing we're going to do is every now and then we're going to have episodes on Wednesday that are unrelated to this. We are not rushing through this.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We're going to take our time. This is going to be a very in-depth review of this case. And so every now and then we're just going to drop random episodes on some other case. So for those of you who don't want to wait or want to wait till the end or don't want to hear this, there will be some breadcrumbs along the way. And then always there's legal briefs so you can listen to that as well.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And we were sort of at that point when I was a young kid and I can remember I was from the more middle class neighborhood. And then I had a whole lot of friends who were from the trailer parks around our school. And the school was sort of the center of the community. So on one side of the school, there were these sort of a little bit better off people.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And then on the other side of the school, there were the people who were really kind of struggling and this kind of stuff, just sort of like groups of kids, uh, Wandering around because there was nothing to do. Right.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I mean, there's nothing to do in this town other than wander around and kids getting in fights and watching one kid beat up another kid was just sort of the kind of thing that happened. So this is an incident, though. It's one of the first incidents where you see the three of them together when some sort of violence is occurring.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
How you define together is going to depend on how you read the reports. Some of the reports put them pretty close together. Others put them at quite a distance. But nevertheless, all of these people sort of knew each other, hung out with each other, and there was violence in their lives all the time. It was something that just they were a part of.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Okay, so let's fast forward to March 3rd, 1992. We're now about a year and a couple months away from the murder. This is the day that Damien and Deanne Holcomb will break up. Sometime after the breakup, Deanne begins dating a boy named Shane Divulbis. Damien became obsessive. Obsessed with her, obsessed with this relationship. And she threatened to kill Shane and his whole family.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
One day at school, Damien came up behind him and jumped on his back. When Shane fell to the floor, Damien tried to claw his eyes out with his fingernails, which he had kept filed to what were described as one and a half inch points. So like claws. And he is clawing at this kid's eyes, trying to claw his eyes out. And I don't think there's any dispute that that's what he was trying to do.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Some other kids immediately jump on him and pull him off the boy. Divobus would describe Echoes as having a commanding figure and control over his friends. He would say that he could look at his friends and immediately silence them. He had this presence. that other kids might not have had. Obviously, Shane is not a big fan of Damien because he tried to claw his eyes out.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So take what he says with a grain of salt. But nevertheless, this is an incident where Damien is exhibiting some pretty... hardcore violence and a willingness to really hurt somebody if given the opportunity. It doesn't stop there. On March 6th, only three days later, Damien tells Deanne that he is going to kill her boyfriend, dump him in her front yard, and burn down her house.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Her mom, wisely, calls the police, and Damien is charged with terroristic threatening, though it doesn't seem that anything came of it. This is also not unusual because You know, he is a juvenile at this point. There's just a lot of stuff that happens.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Unfortunately, at this time in particular, a lot of sort of domestic violence, these kind of incidents, the police tended to arrest you, let you go. And that was the end of it. And it seems like that's what happened here. Now, despite all of this, Damien and Deanne got back together. So love conquered all. And she decided she was going to go back with Damien.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Yeah. So for those of you who either don't know about this case or you want to do more, we have read, reviewed so much stuff. We'll be throwing stuff out. Obviously, they're the original documentaries, the three part series of Paradise Lost. There's West of Memphis, which came out afterwards. Those are all very pro West Memphis three.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And look, I mean, this may seem like we're trying to demonize these people who are later going to be accused of this murder, but that's not what we're doing. We talk about victimology a lot. And that's when you look at the victims and you try and figure out sort of what are the things in their life that would be risk factors that would put them in a position to
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
where predators could take advantage of them, that sort of thing. And it's a very important thing to do. But as important as that is looking at the profile of the kind of person who would do something like this. And one of the things that you often hear from people who defend the West Memphis Three is, Why would they do that? These are teenagers. They're just normal kids.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
The only reason the police focused on them is because they wore black and listen to Metallica and Johnny Cash wore black and he never murdered three kids. And that's that is a myth. There's a lot of lore in this case, and that's part of it. then that's why these people were targeted. It's not.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Damien was targeted because he had a lot of violent tendencies and he came from a broken home, the kind of place that you might have a lot of anger build up that would explode at some point. And you can see how broken Damien's home is. And it's only going to get worse.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I just want to point out, because this case, like all the cases, all the famous cases we do, man, is there just a lot of BS out there about it. And one of the things that's out there is that it's just so weird that Jerry Driver's just so obsessed with the cult and he's just so obsessed with Damien. And why do these people think all this devil worship was going on?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And if you don't know who those people are, we're going to explain in a second. Tons of books on this case, which we have read. Blood of Innocence is a fantastic book that people don't read enough. It's out of print, but you can get a used copy. I advise you do that. Probably the most unbiased view of this case is in that book.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And it's funny because you read it and you're like, oh, because Damien, whether he's just messing with them, which I think is. 80% likely or whether or not some of this is true. He is egging this on, you know, he's feeding this to driver.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He's probably just pulling his chain, but he's telling them this elaborate story that confirms all the things he's worried about and says, Hey, Oh, by the way, if there's a sacrifice, they're moving towards the sacrifice. And it's just, it's so ironic that, This is going to come back to bite him in a huge way later on. And Driver is often described. He's like this rube. He's this moron, whatever.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I mean, maybe he is, but he's certainly going based on what this person is telling him and has some concerns that what this kid is telling him may or may not be true. We're going to talk a lot more later. about the satanic panic later on and why this is something that Driver would give some credence to other than just, you know, he lives in Arkansas.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So, of course, he's like some uneducated hillbilly. There was a lot of stuff going on in the 80s and 90s, which informs all of this.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And this is not going to be the last time that Damien trolls the police. I mean, I think he's trolling. I mean, it's up to you. You can decide. Is he trolling them or is he telling the truth? I will say this. There are a lot of people doing weird things in West Memphis. You're going to see that as we go on. So maybe some of this is true. One of them was Damien. He was doing some weird stuff too.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But I think most of this is probably trolling. But he's going to keep doing this even after the murders. He's going to be telling the police things about sacrifices. He's going to, for instance, just to give you a little spoiler, at some point he's going to tell the police, well, if it's a sacrifice, you should look and see if there's wax.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Because if there's, there would be candles and they'd be burning wax. And wouldn't you know it, they find wax on one of the boys. And it's like, dude, what are you doing? But you're going to see this again and again. Okay, we got a little bit more and then we're going to go ahead and stop for this, the first of 28 episodes on this case or however many it's going to take.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We should. We're going to finish 1992. That's what we're going to do. Next episode, we'll start with 1993. So May 27th, 1992, the divorce between the Echols is finalized and Jack moves out. June 1st, 1992, Damien is admitted to Charter, a mental health facility affiliated with the East Arkansas Regional Medical Health Center, where he is administered antidepressant medication.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
The Devil's Knot, also an excellent book written from the perspective of the West Memphis Three, the convicted. As far as podcasts, everyone has covered this case. I'll just name a few. There are very few pro-guilt podcasts. There's Gary Meese, who also wrote a book called The Case Against the West Memphis Three. That book is great. I would advise you just to read the book.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This is part of his sort of the consequences for when he ran away with Deanna and the charges against him. One of the things he had to do is he had to go to this facility. He's released on June 25th when his family decides to move to Oregon. And it's sort of said that one of the conditions was fine. You can be released if you're going to leave the state. He's going to Oregon.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Damien describes fighting at school as a release. This is what he tells the doctors and the psychiatrists here at this facility. He describes fighting at school as a release. He says he only has one friend. Presumably that is Jason Baldwin. He describes a friend as someone who will die for you.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
There are allegations that he chased a younger child with an axe and attempted to set his house on fire, but Damien denies this, though he was known to attempt to set fires at the school. He does admit to trying to claw Shane Divelbiss' eyes out at his school, so that is not disputed. He absolutely tried to do that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He also admits getting suspended for, once again, trying to set the school on fire. If you're trying to set the school on fire, usually you get suspended for that. Damien takes the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory Clinical Report. The report states that his score on the test... is associated with severe emotional disturbance.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Individuals with this profile type often give evidence of a schizophrenic thought disorder and paranoid mentation. So what the doctors are finding out about Damien while he's at this hospital are not great. And they're the kind of things that would lead you to be concerned about his future behavior. On June 8th, 1992, he takes an IQ test. He scores a 101, which is almost perfectly average.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
100 is average. This evaluation includes one of the most negative lines I have ever seen in any evaluation. I'm just going to read it to you. He appears to have weak imaginative resources and is lacking aliveness in productive energy for his life. So if some psychiatrist out there, is aliveness a measure that you use? And what is the scale that you guys measure aliveness on?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Apparently, he is lacking aliveness.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And then as far as podcast, the most in the middle, I think, is probably True Crime Garage, though they didn't really do a deep dive on the case. And then you have Crime Weekly, who I think could properly be described as in the camp of the West Memphis Three. You're going to understand this as we go through this. This is a very divisive case and there are definitely camps.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I know we said we're going to go to 1993, but I want to leave you with the next entry because I think the next entry is an interesting one. We'll leave you with this one until next week. You can think about this over the next week. So on January 5th, 1993, the mental health center reopens Damien's case. So he's in and out of these mental health centers.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And Damien is interviewed by a psychologist and he says that all his problems started when his parents divorced when he was eight. Remember, that was a crushing moment for him. During one interview, Damien talks about how he has no power in his life and he has no control over his life either.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And then Bob Ruff, Truth and Justice, has done probably the longest podcast.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And this is one reason he's becoming more and more involved in magic, though he denies that he's a Satanist. Though he does say, and this is a quote that will follow him around for the rest of his life. He says that when he dies, he, quotes, wants to go where the monsters go. He says that the world is divided into sheep and wolves and that wolves eat the sheep.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And he says that he pretty much hates the human race. So that's where Damien Echols is as 1993 begins.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
podcast on this from the perspective of the convicted and their innocence you can listen to that as well we are going to try and give you an unbiased view of this case which frankly i don't think there has been an unbiased deep dive of this case everybody starts from a position we are not doing that we are going to try and lay this out for you
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
It's going to be a lot of episodes. Now, look, I mean, actually, that did go pretty fast. So maybe this is going to go faster. I don't know. We're going to slow down as we go.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But I'm going to say that, like I said, we're going to take as long as this takes. We're not going to rush through this. This case is one of the biggest cases. It's a case that I'm fascinated with. So don't worry about it. We're not going to get bored with this case. You may get bored with this case. We're not going to get bored with this case.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And we're going to give you everything we got on this one. So you're going to come. I'll say this. You're going to come out of this. Almost doesn't matter who you are. There are probably some of you who will prove me wrong on this. You're going to come out of this having learned something about this case you didn't know. No matter how much you know, you're going to learn something.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
If you're brand new to this case or if you've only seen the documentaries, you're going to learn a lot. But I'm really excited to do this case and excited to do it with you, Alice.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So this has been our first episode. We know you already have thoughts. Shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com, at prosecutorspod for all your social media. The gallery will be, the whole place may have burned down by now. So join the gallery, discuss this case. We'll be posting about it on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok. We'll be everywhere.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
If you want to see these episodes early and ad-free, and if you want to be here while we record them, but if you're listening to this live, or when it drops. You've already missed a bunch, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say these recordings are still going. So join Patreon. You can watch us record these, and worst case, you can hear them early and ad-free.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
All right, Alice, before we sign off for this week, is there anything else you want to add?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I'm going to say one more thing. This is going to sound a little weird, but I don't want it to. We have talked about the images of the children, the videos. There are a lot of autopsy images available as well out there, but I know there are people who have more of them. We have an expert who's looking at the autopsy reports in this case and is looking at the available photographs.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Obviously, that expert will be able to do a better job if they have more photographs. If you're one of those people, Hello, Reddit, who has these photographs. If you can send them to me, I will not share them with anyone except the expert. So that person can apply their expertise to the autopsies and the photos. I know that's a weird request.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But I can tell just having read a lot of stuff about this case that there are people who have those photographs. So if you're one of those people, shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com. I promise you they will not go anywhere other than our expert.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And there are a lot of them. You got to be careful because there are a lot of them that are available and they are gruesome. So just remember that. Yeah. All right. Well, you guys, we're looking forward to doing the rest of this case with you. We will be back next week with part two. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are the prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Boy Kills Girl. We probably will get to the conclusion in about August, so you've got plenty of time.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So we don't know how this is going to go today. I guess not.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
The last thing I'll say, this case more than any has all of the original stuff. You can listen to the trials. You can read the trial transcript. There's a website called Callahan. You can read it all. Very well organized. All the original stuff. Great resource.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So as we often do in these long cases, we're going to start off with a synopsis and then we're going to talk about some of the people involved. There's a lot of names. There's a lot of characters. So one of the reasons it's going to take so long to cover this. The other thing we're going to do, we're not going to treat this as if you know this case.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Even though many of you do, there are some of you who don't. And so we're going to go through this like we do any other case. And when we finish doing that, which is going to take a lot of episodes, then we're going to go into depth about some of the most important things that happened in this case, the most important subjects. So will there be a little bit of repetition?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Yes, but I think it's going to be worth it. And I think you'll see that. The other thing I will just ask you, this is such a huge case. If you think we're missing something or skipping something, let us know. Shoot us an email. We're going to be doing this for a while. So there's going to be a little bit of live development as this goes.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
There's always things that we think, man, that's not important. Now, who cares about that? And then somebody be like, this is the most important thing. Let us know. We'll have plenty of time to cover it with that. I think that's enough build up. Are you ready to dive in? Alice, let's go.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And then we'll just stop the podcast when this is done. So, OK, so the afternoon of Wednesday, May 5th, 1993, started out like any late spring day in the town of West Memphis, Arkansas. Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and Christopher Byers finished school at Weaver Elementary School and raced home to enjoy the afternoon. For Michael and Christopher, it was a short race.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Weaver Elementary was a one-minute walk from Michael's house and his backyard essentially backed up to the school. Christopher Byers actually lived across the street from him, so they lived very close to each other.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
stevie branch the other friend lived a few blocks away the neighborhood itself was sort of lower to solidly middle class it was a neighborhood of clean well-kept houses the occasional backyard pool and groups of children riding bikes through the neighborhood streets and playing in spacious front yards that was something you would see anytime
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And I will just go ahead and tell you, one of the reasons that this case, I find this case so interesting, is I'm not from Arkansas. I'm from Alabama. But I grew up in a town not unlike West Memphis, in a situation not unlike these boys. I was right in between their ages. In 1993, I was 12. So I was older than the boys who were killed and younger than the boys who would eventually be convicted.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But I feel like I know sort of the dynamic of this neighborhood. really well. And in many ways, this was the typical Southern town of hardworking people raising families with the expectation that nothing truly bad could ever happen.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors... On May 5th, 1993, in West Memphis, Arkansas, three eight-year-old boys were brutally murdered. Three teenagers were convicted for the crime, but the question remains, did they do it? This is the case of the West Memphis Three. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So on that day, as the sun began to set, Stevie, Michael, and Chris would ride their bikes into that forest called Robin Hood Hills by the locals. They'd leave their bikes at the pipe bridge and go deeper into the woods to Turtle Hill in a place the kids called Devil's Den.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
There were rumors of satanic rituals in the woods, and although neighborhood children are forbidden from going there, they simply could not resist it. Michael bragged of having a secret hideout in the woods behind Mayfair, and if the boys had been there once, they'd been there a hundred times. But that day, something else waited in the forest, something evil.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And whether that evil came in the form of one person or three, it would take the lives of the three boys in one of the most infamous crimes in American history— Following an investigation, the police would focus in on three teenagers, Jesse Miskelly, Jason Baldwin, and the boy they thought was the leader of the group, Damian Echols.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Jesse would eventually confess, and following two trials, all three were convicted of the murders. But in the decades that followed, many people began to doubt the guilt of the teenagers who came to be known as the West Memphis Three. And despite being released after entering an Alford plea, The question remains who killed Stevie, Michael, and Chris.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Guys, we want to talk about one of our favorite podcasts and one of our favorite creators, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps. You know him as the New York Times bestselling author of 46 books. He's an investigative journalist and winner of the Excellence in Investigative Journalism Award from the Society of Professional Journalists. If there's one thing we need more of,
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
In true crime, it's people who actually understand how to research and chase a story, and he has absolutely done that. In fact, he consulted on the first season of the hit Showtime cable television series, Dexter. And he is the executive producer, writer, and co-host of the number one Apple true crime podcast franchise, Paper Ghosts.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Hey, I mean, it was nice over the weekend. It was beautiful.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
now we have more it would totally get to 100 people i know i know and i like to get vocal i don't know what happened to them there when they went from get vocal to vocal their new interface was so clunky and terrible are we still paying for it we know we never paid for it oh that well that might be maybe the problem yeah well you know i don't know that they had a
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Yeah, just, you know, standard to everybody. Ask a question. We'll answer the question. Come back on. That kind of thing.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
We've got to carry the house around on the back. It's amazing.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. Like they want a 60 second ad and it's like... Not 60 seconds?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Yeah, we leave Tuesday. We don't have to record if you don't want to.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. Sounds good. Sounds good. All right, guys. Thanks for putting up with my scratchy voice tonight. I appreciate it.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I am getting old. I can tell because why is your voice doing it? I give it all. I mean, you got to understand. I'm giving it all.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
There are, there are, there were at least, I'm going to say five times where I thought I was going to pass out and I had to just kind of stop and like, take a moment.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Exactly. Like I'm not breathing enough because I got to keep the noise level up, right? You can't. And so like I would be, and I would feel myself like, and I'd be like, okay.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
But, like, my entire body hurts today. Like, every, from, you would, I feel like I played the game. Like, I was getting hit. I'm sore all over. I mean, yeah.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
you know when you like funny dance i'm like oh that's gonna throw out something yeah yeah it's sad it's sad so great so great i can't get all games anymore because i'm just you know glad there's only a few that are like that or i would just i can't do it it was a fun game though well you know yeah it was fun at the end
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
We just record it straight to the... It records straight to the...
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
oh because they got you right yeah we're good it's only you only have to upload when it's when you're recording locally which we didn't do if we'd recorded locally everybody on there would have recorded oh you're right you're right i'm sorry i'm a little slow today a weekend you know bye i'll see you tomorrow bye bye you too my favorite people
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors. Last week, you got a look behind the mic on some of our bloopers. This week, you're getting more of the same. Happy New Year.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
There you go. I love it. I don't want to mess anything up. I'm just going to deal with it. I'm just dealing with it.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Well, no, I want to hear you. What you say is important. Okay. This, the fact that I sound weird to me is making me weird. So I'm going to go ahead and just unplug all this stuff.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
We'll see y'all soon. But yeah, thank you guys for coming on here. I know y'all are- All the people's rants, so I'm sorry.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm going live. Going live. We're doing it live. Doing it live. Woo-woo. Doing it live. Someone has to murder Joe first so we can cover it.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I see. Well, there you go. Okay, I don't know if I should move something away from other things.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay. Okay. So I've moved the phone away. I've moved boxes away.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Well, let's start recording because I can't hear myself, and I want to hear myself.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
All right, guys. Everything had been working so well before today.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
It's fine. Let me rescan audio devices. I feel like I have to do something.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
All I did was I changed out the headphones. I mean, I moved stuff around, but I changed out the headphones because I thought maybe it was the headphones.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
And I can only hear you out of one ear, too. Oh, that's weird.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
The word I'm going to use to describe you, it's not a pun, but it is more related to the case than to you. So don't feel, don't be insulted.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I have no idea. Okay. I've clicked buttons and unplugged things and replugged them and eventually it worked. So we're back. We're back. And that's all that matters.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Here we go. All right. Okay, I'm going to go live. You ready to go live?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You ready? I'm ready. Ready to end this podcast. Let's do it. Let's do it right now. Okay. All right.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah, I can't. The whole kids growing up thing is killing me.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Cheetahs are the most domesticatable wild cats, by the way. They were kept as pets by both the Persian Empire and the Egyptian Empire. And as I've said before, cheetahs are all genetically identical. So all cheetahs can donate to other cheetahs.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I think that's something I never thought about. I wonder if there is like a place, like a similar place that's like where all these people saw America for the first time.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
We need a second Statue of Liberty, a Western Statue of Liberty.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
My people showed up in like 1600 or something. So there was no Ellis Island for them. They just showed up and took what they wanted. Okay, let's see.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
That's right. Here we go. I still think the idea of a Western Statue of Liberty would be cool.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Oh, I like that. I like that. Thank you. The problem is you go under the Golden Gate Bridge and the first thing you see is Alcatraz. I know. I don't know what that's like. I don't know if that's the image that we want to be portrayed.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay, here we go. So what are we saying? Did we decide how we're pronouncing his name? However they said it on the western Ellis Island?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So you think it actually has a G sound at the end, like Wong, you think it actually is Wong?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Somebody was going to come through for you. Oh, wait. Sorry. I was looking up his Wikipedia page to see if it says. I feel like everybody's really hesitant to put that stuff on Wikipedia now. I know. We don't want to define somebody by their race, but it would be nice to know.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
He was the OCA. Wait. Well, that doesn't count. Oh, wait. Yes. Well, I mean, he served as general counsel for the Organization of Chinese Americans. That doesn't necessarily mean he's Chinese.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm going to do my very best, and I'm just going to let you pronounce it correctly. Okay. Which is usually what happens anyways, right?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm just going to refer to him as Robert from now on. So, okay.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah. And then somebody's going to say we got it wrong. They're going to say there was no G on his name. Yeah, there's no G in the Chinese language either. What's the female in the podcast thinking?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
They talk so much on their podcast. It's like, quit talking.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
This is what we always did when we just did this by ourselves, too, by the way. Yeah, except no one else heard it. The unadulterated us. So if you don't like this, I'm sorry.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
No. The aliens, when they came to Earth, genetically modified cheetahs so that they would be compatible with humans so they'd help us hunt and stuff. So it was all the aliens. Or it was a genetic bottleneck.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Let's see if I can find a kilt picture. Throw it real fast. You guys hang out for a minute. I don't want y'all clipping this and sharing it all over the internet. Okay? Just saying.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm going to try and make it big. I'm going to try and blow it up as much as I can.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
My wife's not going to like this because she's in the picture. But you guys will just have to deal with it.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
She is. She's so cute. Okay, let's search. If she's watching now, she'll probably rush up. Don't do that.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Anyway, what's going on, guys? Y'all like this one? I'm glad somebody likes their case choices. I'm tired of people complaining.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
No, I'm looking. I'm trying to remember when we got engaged. Oh, I'm going the wrong way. That's the problem. I'm not getting it. Where is it? Where is it? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
huh here's a picture of ted bundy what's that doing in there you have a picture i've always been a fan of true crime what can i say my goodness gracious i know there's these are in here somewhere sorry i'm just gonna have to wait y'all just waiting not like y'all mind y'all don't mind i want to like ask my wife when do we get engaged again Don't do it.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I know she is. Okay. Let's pull it up in here. I got pictures all over the place. I don't know if you guys are like that. We have so many pictures now. I feel like when I was growing up, we had a couple photo albums and that was it. And now I have like 10,000 pictures. My kids are going to have so many pictures of them when they're young.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I can think of all the pictures of myself that I've seen, but... Oh, she's talking to me. Oh, she found it.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
The whole kilt and caboodle. I had so much fun at that wedding, though.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah. I like how she deleted the other one. I've already got it. Ha-ha.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Let's see. I actually like the other picture better, but whatever. That's fine.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
They're different. Yeah. Look at my head. My head's in a different place.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah, that's what they told me. I mean, I rented everything from the Scottish place. They could have been lying to me. They could have been like, we're going to make the American look funny.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
They had so much fun with me because they didn't know what to make of me. I just showed up and they were like... They were like, this is amazing. Yeah, we had a lot of fun. Okay, I promise you.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah, I'm looking forward to like Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter and all that stuff.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Well, I mean, I do like it. I'm Scottish. You know, 400 years ago. I was going to say. Whatever it is. You know?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Back at the Battle of Baddockburn or whatever. So, anyways. But I would totally wear a kilt again. If any of y'all want to get married in Scotland, I'm your man. I'll be there.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I mean, I'm sure you can wear a dress made out of the tartan or whatever.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You could just wear a kilt. It's a skirt. It works for both.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Oh, yeah, I guess I should do that. I didn't have my finger on the record button like apparently somebody did.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
That is what they always said. It was always, oh, I remember.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm a terrible person. You're the opposite of a terrible person. You want to just do every other paragraph? Horrificness. Yeah, we can do that.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You look so ready. You've never been more ready. Hello, everyone. Pleasure to see you all again. We'll be seeing you again tomorrow and then the next day.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't know that... But you do talk really slowly.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Well, you know, this last guy, I have no idea what the FBI was thinking.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Well, basically, all he said was it's not consistent with a car strike. But then when the prosecution lays it out for him, he didn't test the car strike we're talking about.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I could tell you it's not consistent with him getting backed over. I agree with that.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Now, why? Once again, why the FBI was ever involved in this case? I have no idea.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
That's true. That's a good point. Okay, I'm going to go laugh.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm sure it was. Okay. Hold on one second. Let me exit out of this thing.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Definitely finishing it today. Okay. The pause was sinking. Okay. Okay. I guess I'm ready if you are.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay, let's see. Let me get a word for you. Let's see. Some of these I feel like I've said before.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
That's what I'm here for. We are finishing it today. There's no doubt about that. Okay. I'm not going to continue while she's gone, unless you guys just want me to. We can talk about something else. My kids are all asleep, I think, and they're supposed to be. Dogs downstairs, vicious package biting beast.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You know, I kept those jeans for forever because I thought these will be my like knock around jeans. And then at some point we decided to clean up and I was like, I need to get rid of these jeans. Now I wish I hadn't done that because I could have shown you my dog tooth destroyed jeans. I mean, they weren't destroyed. I mean, literally, it was just like. It looked like a vampire had attacked me.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
The two fangs just right through the jeans into my legs. I still feel the phantom pain in my leg, even as I describe it. But... I did, you know, in all honesty, I did afterwards decide I probably should go to the pharmacy. So I did go to the pharmacy and get like alcohol and peroxide because I was like, I don't know, does whiskey really do it? Is whiskey strong enough? I just didn't know.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Well, I get in trouble if I call you hot. Is that like sexist?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So I did go and get it and came back and like, you know, poured it all in there, which hurt really bad. Kind of cleaned it out and stuff because I didn't want to get an infection because I was literally flying to like,
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
austria the next day we flew to austria we did uh new year's in vienna which was awesome we did the waltz and all that stuff anyways i barely could do it because you know i've been bitten on the leg by a dog but i powered through so i was just telling stories instead of continuing i can't believe i didn't scream i thought i was a murderer just walked in the door you did a great job oh thanks i do what i can okay okay now i'm gonna now i'm gonna talk okay get back get back
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
No, I was just making sure you were ready. I don't know what to say. It's going to be like a... At some point we're going to have to start doing two episodes a week on this one. Unless we want to do it forever. Okay, here we go.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I think sometimes that's just in your headphones. Like, I had some and I turned down the far right switch. Yeah. The far right switch. Maybe that's what it is. Okay. Hold on one second. Okay. Hmm.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I know. Unless you're Casey Anthony. who joe thinks is innocent that's okay okay You ready to start?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay. As Bonverwall brought, yeah, as Bonver... So the investigation up until this point had been filled with twists and turns, up and downs, but nothing could prepare investigators for what they were told. The hitmen weren't hired by right-wing mercenaries or members of the president's cabinet, but by two of the most prominent businessmen in Guatemala. Friends, Guatemala.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay. The hitmen weren't hired by right-wing mercenaries. Remember... You know, it's been a long weekend. I'm sorry. It's Jason who suffers here. I'm sorry, Jason.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm totally kidding. Hopefully we'll get through at least one of these.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Everybody send her good vibes. Everybody send her good vibes.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I feel like it's the first time I've recorded anything in forever. Yeah. So hopefully I haven't lost all the magic.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Happy New Year, everybody. Okay. Here we go. Okay. Get your word. Got a lot of water. Get me through this. Okay. Okay.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You know, I'm sure that person is so deep thinking that they would be affected by your
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Hold on one second. I'm going to stop mine for a second. Let's see.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Well, I mean, it looks fine. It just sounds funny to me, but I don't know why. It doesn't matter.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm sure it's recording fine. hopefully are you seeing your levels i'm asking all the questions that you asked me like i know what they mean they look fine they look fine okay how do i sound to everybody does everybody does it sound someone said you sounded quiet but generally you sound good it's loudness and quietness is not the issue it's does it sound tingy or anything okay whatever
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
My internet went down today, so I'm having to use my phone. All day? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So I've gotten so used to listening to myself talk that when I sound weird, it's weird to me, but that's okay. Okay.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
today on the prosecutors we continue our look at the robert wan case i might just turn this off because it's so weird it sounds so weird to me that i can't oh you can hear yourself and it sounds weird yeah that's the problem it's like it just sounds weird to me so okay you do what you gotta do yeah that doesn't do it let's see all these different little knobs and stuff Does that do it?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
People in the chat, I got to end the stream so we can download the recordings, but you guys are awesome too.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
That did it. Okay. Okay, so now it's not weird anymore because I can't hear myself.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I'm Brett, and I'm Alice, and we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we start the timeline of the investigation. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my mad co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So let's go to May 7th. So now the police are very much investigating this and they draw up a questionnaire for canvassing the area. I believe this was done in consultation with the FBI. Many of the questions were typical, but a few indicated the type of person the police were initially looking for.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
A couple of the questions that stand out if they or anyone they know in the area is a Vietnam veteran. Now, one of the reasons they wondered about this is because apparently and I don't know if this has ever been confirmed or not, but this is what the police were under the impression to be true. The way the boys were tied, which is very strange and is not actually hog tying.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Is it though? And that's like the gambler's fallacy, right? I mean, we could just make three pointers forever.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
That's what everybody calls it. Apparently, there were people who said the Viet Cong in Vietnam would tie prisoners that way. So they thought maybe a Vietnam veteran is familiar with this way someone is tied up, sort of brought it back with them. So a Vietnam veteran becomes someone they're looking for. Also, they think whoever did this may have some sort of mental illness.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
People who came back from Vietnam had a lot of PTSD that was untreated. There was just this notion of sort of, I mean, Rambo, you've seen Rambo, this notion of just people, whether true or not, I'm not casting aspersions on Vietnam veterans, but there was just this notion that Vietnam veterans were unstable. So another possibility there.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They also said if anyone in the area wore a uniform is another thing tied to this Vietnam veteran type thing. It was any kind of uniform. And one thing they thought was uniform could mean Vietnam veteran. It also could be something used to control the boys because kids are more likely to react to people in authority.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And police would later expand this to include anyone with an injury to their penis. The theory was that the reason that Christopher Byers was emasculated the way he was, and we're going to talk about that more later, was because of someone who had their own injury acting that out through this murder. Sort of very typical thing you might hear from the behavioral analysis case.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
unit so now we're going to talk about some people they ran into and let me just go and tell you we're going to talk a lot about the satanic panic we have a whole thing we'll probably end up spending a couple episodes on it i'm not sure what to think i will say this i always just believed whatever satanic panic the police were just completely off the rails there were some weird people in west memphis and you're gonna see there was definitely something going on here it's not just this whole satanic panic thing there was some real satanic stuff
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Now, there you go. Jessica basketball. Alabama's a basketball school. I don't know what you're talking about. I've never heard of football.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
The police were hearing things from so many different people, including Damien Echols. They were reinforcing their idea that this was somehow satanic related. And you're going to see that as we start going through this investigation. So we'll start with their can of sing the neighborhood and they run into someone called King David Samuel Beasley. This is one of the first people they run into.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
You would think, if you're named King David Samuel Beasley, you would be sort of the leader of whatever group you're a part of. But he, in fact, was not. He was a follower of his roommate, Sir Michael Williams. Williams. So the police, just imagine, the police, they're already thinking, man, this seems weird, might be cultist. They knock on the door.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And William shows up in the black robe that he always wears with a white cross on it. Meanwhile, you have Beasley, who's wearing a necklace that has a Star of David on it, which the police in West Memphis probably were like, that's a pentagram, right? They probably didn't recognize the Star of David, right? So these two instantly pique their interest.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But they're able to confirm their alibis and they're very quickly able to sort of push them to the side as possible suspects. But they, in a lot of ways, kind of set the stage for what's going to happen as this canvas continues.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Baseball is pretty good, too. But anyways, I digress. And I know how much you guys hate digressions. So with that in mind, let's reset. We're about to get into the investigation. And I think it's worth taking a step back and looking at the sort of key points in the timeline just to sort of orient you as we move forward.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Let me just say, actually, Skaggs is a pretty good initial suspect. Spends time in the area. He has the breaking and entering, which, as Alice said, is the kind of crime that escalates. He quits his job immediately after, which people in the BAU will tell you, big time life changes right after a murder, indicative of something. And he's fleeing the area, which is another thing people talk about.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So Skaggs is pretty interesting. The police are going to lose interest in him, as you're going to see. And we'll talk about that in a second. But initially, not bad.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
As you're thinking through sort of what the police are discovering, what the evidence is that comes in. So with that in mind, let's reset. So here are the critical times on the day of the murders. Now, look, these times are assuming that everyone is telling the truth and remembering accurately.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
In this interview, the second interview is on May 15th, by the way, so not that much later. He's talking about Damien some more. I think another thing you can criticize the police for, they lived and died by these polygraphs. They believe them in a way. And look, we've talked about this before. There are a lot of police who, if you pass a polygraph, you're pretty much cleared.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
If you fail it, you may never be cleared. And I get that. But there was a lot of smoke with this guy. And the fact that he has all the smoke and he's trying to point his fingers at other people, I think he would have been a good person to follow up on, but he's not. So, sorry. It's just a person who sort of passes through this case and then passes out of it. And that's just the way it is.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Telling the truth is important because I'm going to give you the statements of the eventual West Memphis three, the three defendants as well. Just so you see how this all shakes out if everybody's basically telling the truth. So the last confirmed sighting of the boys occurs at between 6 and 6.30 by Cynthia Rico and between 6.30 and 6.45 by Jeff Martins and Brian Woody.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Yeah, but that's not what they do. Now, we're about to talk about Damien again. And if you've watched Paradise Lost, there's a sort of Damien Echols tunnel vision they talk about, which I don't believe is real. And as we go through this timeline, you'll see that.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Damien Echols was definitely a prominent character from the very beginning, and he was someone that people focused on more and more as the investigation continued. But the main people who were focused on him were... were sort of ancillary to the investigation.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They were these juvenile officers, Steve Jones and this officer Sudbury, who was another person who'd been on the scene when the bodies were found. And one thing I just want to note about those people, Look, juvenile officers, very important. They do great work. I'm in no way disparaging them, but homicide detectives are at the very top of the pyramid when it comes to the police.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Juvenile officers are pretty much at the bottom. I mean, probably below patrol officers, frankly. So the notion that just because these juvenile officers were like, it's Damien Echols, he finally killed somebody, that the entire West Memphis Police Department was suddenly like, yes! We must frame Damien Echols is silly.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They very much believed this was a valuable avenue of investigation and they will pursue it. But the West Memphis Police Department is not a monolith. And I think at this early stage, Gary Gitchell is not thinking this was satanic. This was Damien Echols. And you're going to see that as we go through. But.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Steve Jones and Shane Griffin and Officer Sudbury, they're thinking, hey, we got this violent kid in the community. Let's go look at him. And they actually go to Damien's trailer to talk to him. When they get there, they note a pair of tennis shoes and combat boots, both which were caked in mud.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Now, Damien will later say that only the tennis shoes were caked in mud and that he kept his combat boots spotless.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So they interview Damien. They note that he has a pentagram on his chest. Damien tells them that he was a patient of Little Rock Memorial Mental Hospital, where he was diagnosed as manic depressive and schizophrenic. He tells them that he was previously involved in a Wiccan religion and a local group called the Covenant of the Divine Light, which he describes as a white witchcraft group.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He tells the police he thinks the murders were a thrill kill. He also tells them that his sister, Michelle, was sexually abused by his stepfather, but that it didn't really bother him. And this is something we've talked about earlier that all was percolating below the surface as well. So this is the discussion they have with Damien on this day.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So obviously they're taking exactly what Alice said and they're going to take it back to West Memphis and say, hey, we talked to this guy, Damien. You know, we got concerns about him and he's saying all this stuff about being in a cult and his shoes are muddy. You need to follow this up. So at this point on May 9th, Officer Shane Griffin and Bill Durham are going to go talk to Damien.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I think those are our best last times. The very last time anyone claims to see them is at around 7 when Christopher Wall sees the boys. Now the problem with Wall's statement is he's the only one putting them that late sort of going into the woods. These are all heading in the direction of the woods at this point. And he says he saw the kids as he was coming home from class.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They show up basically at Jason Baldwin's house. Damien Echols is there, Dominique Thier is there, and Jason Baldwin is there as well. And they talk to them in the front yard of the house. According to Jason, the three had gone to Jason's uncle's house to cut the grass.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
After that, he and Damien were at the laundromat in Missouri and North Washington Street, and his dad picked him up at around 6 p.m. His father then took Dominic and Jason home while Damien walked home. Now, we've talked about this before. This whole thing about where they were and when they were at the laundromat and how they got home is inconsistent across the board.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Everybody tells different stories on this. It doesn't necessarily mean anything nefarious. It's just hard to nail down when they're at the laundromat. And after this... the police are going to start talking to the people that I actually think were their first suspects.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Damien's always in the back of the mind, but now they're going to move on to people who really, I think to this day, maybe there are some people who are curious about these individuals.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
His girlfriend would later say that she talked to him at the school payphone around 730 and that that was something they did all the time. Basically, since the old days, guys, before we had cell phones, right? So she would wait at the payphone or he would wait at the payphone at around 730 and she would call the payphone number and he would pick it up and talk to her.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Yeah. And if I ever say that a polygraph means somebody is innocent or guilty, call me out on it because I just have so little faith in them. I mean, I get they can be useful investigative tools. They're really useful when you tell somebody they failed them because they're like, oh, I failed. You know the truth.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I mean, honestly, I think the most effective polygraph is the one in The Wire where they just like they have a copy machine and they make him think that it's measuring whether he tells the truth or not. It just spits out a copy that says lie. I mean, that's as effective as any polygraph. But anyways, I know there's plenty of people who disagree with me on this.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I want to just mention because the police get a lot of grief for all the satanic panic stuff. Right. You know, West Memphis is second Salem, according to Damien.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But if you think about the sort of zeitgeist therein and the fact that people across the country, including at the FBI and various police departments, believe this whole cult ritual murder thing is happening and they keep hearing this stuff from various people. You can understand why this was forefront at the forefront of their mind, particularly with the brutality of this murder.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So just something to remember. They didn't just grab this out of the sky. There are people they are talking to who are saying things like, I am the member of a cult. Not a member. The leader. The leader of a cult. That's going to keep this coming up in their head.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Damien had also told him... Alice probably did that all the time when she was in Texas, right?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
That's the way they would do it. This actually comes up not because the police are checking the timeline, which I want to talk about in a second, but because someone actually accused Wall of being involved and said, you know, he kind of was into younger boys and he would have been able to befriend them and this sort of thing.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
welfare always beats out on the human sacrifice I was gonna sacrifice my child to the dark gods to attain immortal power but you know what if you have a child you get a larger welfare check so maybe I'll just do that I love that it's just great
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So Chris Lachelle and Murray Ferris, you know, they remain sort of on the police's radar. On May 10th, Jim Agee, who's the youth counselor at a local Baptist church, tells police that Chris Lachelle and Murray Ferris had recently attended his church and seemed scared for reasons that he wasn't clear about.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
The final line of the report states, both of these two boys go to West Memphis High School and are noted for being involved in cult, white witchcraft, exclamation point. So, you know, once again, sort of tying them to this whole witchcraft idea. Now, the problem with Luttrell and Ferris is that Luttrell had an alibi for the day of the murders, and so did Murray Ferris.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And so they talked to her and she's like, no, he was on the phone with me at 730. So this is a little shaky. Now, it could be a different night that she talked to him through the fog of time. It is impossible to know. So before I get to the other thing, I want to criticize the police for a second because the police are up for a lot of criticism in this case.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They were actually attending services at the Baptist Church. when the murders were committed. So to the extent that Chris Lachelle and Murray Ferris were interesting, they have a much better alibi than just about anyone else in the case.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Yeah, I mean, you know, what are you going to do? You got to fit in. An aside. Weird fact. This is the depth of our research, people. In 2000, the Los Angeles Times did a story on polyamorous relationships, highlighting a Tennessee throuple. Shane and April Divalbis and Chris Luttrell.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Shane, you may recall, was Deanna Holcomb's boyfriend after Damien, the one that he threatened to claw the eyes out of. He jumped on him and tried to claw out his eyes. So these three would eventually appear on the MTV show Sex in the 90s. It's a group thing. The group would eventually separate, and tragically, Shane would die in his sleep in 2012 at the age of only 37.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So on May 10th, and this is my personal favorite alternative suspect in this case, a mysterious person is going to come up on May 10th. There is an anonymous tipster who is going to call the police and tell them that Damien and Domini killed the boys and that an LG took and laundered their clothes for them. This person, who is apparently a woman, says,
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
says that Damien has parts of the bodies in a box. If you've seen West Memphis 3, you may recall there's a moment where John Mark Byers talks about this very rumor. And this person will say that LG's mother would lie about his whereabouts. LG is going to be LG Hollingsworth. We're going to spend a good chunk of time on LG Hollingsworth. He is sort of a...
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This could have been the West Memphis Four. And if it had been the West Memphis Four, LG Hollingsworth would have been the fourth. So we're going to talk about him a lot later on. So on May 10th, also something else happens that's very important. Ridge will interview Damien. And it's an interesting read. And we're going to spend probably the rest of this episode talking about this interview.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Just to like, for the sake of time, I'll read through it. And Alice, we can comment on this. So on May 10th, we have this conversation with Damien Echols that is recorded in this report. Most detailed report so far. Remember, they've talked to Damien several times. But this is really going to become important in this case.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So he comes in for an interview concerning any information that he may have concerning the homicide. He talks to Ridge about this, go through his vital statistics, all that stuff. Now, Damien says this is consistent with his prior interviews, that he was a member of a white witch group that he referred to as Wicca. He stated that his belief was there was a goddess and not a god.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Some of it is unfair, but I will tell you what is absolutely fair and what is incredibly frustrating if you are trying to follow this case. What is incredibly frustrating is that the police never nailed any of this down. The last sighting of the boys, you know, people talk about... Where they were at 330 and all that stuff. That's great. That might be important.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This is something that he will echo here. In later testimony in court, he stated that everyone in the group works towards a divine light. Upon reaching that state, they become like gods themselves. And he says he has been a member of the group for about five years.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Yeah, right. Exactly. Which isn't really consistent with the timeline that we've heard before about when he got into this, because we've heard they got into it with Deanna Holcomb and he's going to talk about her.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Exactly. So he meets this person that he considered to be a priestess of this religion. And this was Deanna Holcomb. And they had started dating. He said that she worshipped cats. And what she did was her form of witchcraft. He sort of went through his day of the murders, that he was at home. He got out of bed about 10.30 to 11. He went to Lakeshore.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He said that a lot of his friends lived at Lakeshore and that he used to live there with his stepfather, Jack Eccles. And remember, that is a rough relationship. During this meeting, he was wearing a necklace that he claimed he had just bought at the Mall of Memphis on the Saturday before the interview.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Now, this is interesting because the Saturday before the interview would have been shortly after the murders. This necklace is actually going to become important because it has blood on it. And the blood is either Jason Baldwin's or one of the boys who was murdered. And we'll talk about that more when it comes up in the case itself. The necklace had a pentagram as a pendant.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And Damien explained that this was a good symbol for Wicca magic. He said that on Wednesday, he was with Jason Baldwin and Dominique Teer. He said they had gone to Jason's uncle's house and that Jason had cut the grass while he was there. And then later on, they went to the infamous laundromat where they were picked up. They took Dominique home and he talks about how Dominique is his girlfriend.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
She's pregnant with his baby. And then he basically hangs out and he's on the phone for the rest of the night. He gets off the telephone at around 1130. So basically, his... Thing is, he gets dropped off. They go and see the Sanders, which is the family, by the way, that was watching 90210. They go there. He includes this in his statement. It's a very early part of his statement.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So if he's fabricating that, he fabricated it very early on. And then after that, they go home and he talks to these girls on the telephone. And that becomes basically what his story is going to be for the rest of time. Went to see the Sanders, watched a little 90210, went home, talked to these 12-year-olds on the phone. That is his alibi.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Yeah. And we've already got people defending it. Oh, it was a different time.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And if some 18 year old had been talking to somebody in fifth grade, we would have had a problem with it. And I just don't, I don't understand. Look, Damien Nichols may be innocent. We may say at the end, he's innocent. The cult of Damien is not going to exist in this podcast. Okay. Damien Nichols is creepy. He's creepy in a lot of ways.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
One of the ways is when he was 18 years old, he was seducing a 12 year old. So you can love Damien Nichols all you want, but we're not going to do that.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But what's really important is the time they entered the forest and the police never should have started.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
We should build statues to them and worship them, right? That's so ridiculous. Most of the people who are accused of crimes are accused for a reason. And we've talked about this before. You don't have to whitewash their background to defend them as innocent. You don't have to whitewash Damien. You don't have to whitewash Timur Jinkinsu.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
You don't have to whitewash these people's lives and what they did and why the police focused on them. And this is an aside, but yeah, he's talking to this 12-year-old on Wednesday. Guess where he is on Thursday? He's with his pregnant girlfriend. That's what he's doing on Thursday. So I don't know. I find that to be concerning, but maybe it's just me.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So he suggests that one possible person who could have been involved in this is Jason Baldwin, but not his friend Jason Baldwin. And another confusing fact in this case, there's another Jason Baldwin. Guys, we're all trying to tighten up our spending these days, but the fact of the matter is there are hidden costs you don't even know you're paying for.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
All of those streaming services, those subscriptions, they add up fast and often you don't even notice. And you ended up signing up for some subscription because you wanted to see one show. You saw the show. It was great. It got canceled. And now you're still paying for that same subscription. You don't even know about it. And that's where Rocket Money comes in.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. And I run into this all the time. I am always signing up for different streaming services for all of the various true crime documentaries they have, because there's always on different ones.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
You know, one day it's on this streaming service and it's on the next, and I need to be up on it so that I can talk about it with you guys. And so I'm signing up for these things. I fully expect to cancel them half the time. I think I did. It turns out I didn't, but with the rocket money, I'm able to see what streaming services I'm paying for at any one time.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Guys, we want to talk about one of our favorite podcasts and one of our favorite creators, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps. You know him as the New York Times bestselling author of 46 books. He's an investigative journalist and winner of the Excellence in Investigative Journalism Award from the Society of Professional Journalists. If there's one thing we need more of...
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
In true crime, it's people who actually understand how to research and chase a story. And he has absolutely done that. In fact, he consulted on the first season of the hit Showtime cable television series, Dexter. And he is the executive producer, writer, and co-host of the number one Apple true crime podcast franchise, Paper Ghosts.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Yes, it is the absolute most important thing to pin down, and they don't do it. So they do the right thing initially. They canvas the area, and they get these reports, right? And some of them will be used at trial in sort of vague ways. But they never go back and talk to these people and follow up and bring these people into the station.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And so he talks about this Jason Baldwin. He's 18. He's 300 pounds. He's known to do things like kill animals just for the fun of it, which ironically is something Damien is also accused of. He also talks about LG Hollingsworth. He's going to come up and he says LG is weird. He says that he wanted to trade girlfriends with Damien for a night at one point.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So he's sort of throwing out possibilities for people who could be involved. And then he starts talking about the things that are going to get him in trouble. So he's asked what he heard about the murders. And he said that the boys probably died of mutilation. He said that some guy had cut them up. He said he heard they were placed in the water and they may have drowned.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He said that because of what he had heard, he believed at least one of the boys had been cut up, which is all, I mean, all this is accurate is the thing, right?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Right, so only a few days later. He said that one of the boys may have been cut up more than the others. And once again, remember what we talked about the night of the murders. A bulletin went out from the West Memphis police, and it was vague, and it included information that the police misreported, that all the boys had been mutilated. Right.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Well, Damien is already saying that one of the boys was cut up more than others. And this was something that the West Memphis police actually kept pretty close to the vest. For a long time, people have tried to prove that this part leaked, but there's no good evidence of that. But Damien is already saying that one of the boys had been cut up more than the others.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And he said the homicide may have been for the purpose of scaring someone. He said, and this is also interesting, he said it's probably one person because if there was more than one person, somebody would probably tell. Which is interesting just because Jesse Miskelly is going to confess later. Later on, whether you believe it to be true or not.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Really get them to talk about what they saw, how they know what they saw. Nail this down. They don't do it. So we're left guessing about when the boys actually entered the woods. And that's really important because they were not murdered before they entered the woods. That is just a fact.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He's asked if water had any type of meaning in the Wicca or black magic religion. He says water is a demon type symbolism, which is not even true. I don't know where he got this from. He's just throwing this out there. And then all people have demonic forces inside of them. He said that people have control over the demonic forces in them.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
When he was asked about how he thought the person felt who had committed the homicides, he said the person probably felt good about it and felt good that he had the power to do what he had done. When asked why he thought the victims were so young, he said that the younger the victim, the more innocent the victim was. the more power one would get from sacrificing that victim.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He goes on to say that the boys were not big, not smart, and they would have been easy to control. He felt the killer would not have been worried about the boys screaming due to it being in the woods and close to the expressway. He further stated that the killer probably wanted to hear the screaming. I mean, maybe Damien is just like a BAU profiler in training or something here.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
No matter what you think about this case, even if you think they were taken away from the woods, murdered and brought back, They met their killer in the woods. I think everybody agrees about that. So it's really important to know when they went in.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But I mean, he is this is chilling for the West Memphis. When the West Memphis police hear him talking about this, they're like, what in the world is wrong with this person? Right. Like these are not the responses they expect, but he continues to give them these things. He said he told them he was on antidepressant. He was asked how the person who killed the boys was feeling now.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And he said the person probably thought it was funny and they didn't care whether or not he got caught. When asked what kind of items they should be looking for, he said they should be looking for stones in the area, candles, a knife, and some type of crystals. They're going to find knives later on. And there's candle wax on one of the boys' shirts, which is probably just random.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But nevertheless, the fact that he's sort of telling this and they didn't find it makes them even more suspicious. He said the murderer would be someone local and that the person would not flee from the area. He was then asked about his sex life. He said that he thought sex was boring.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I don't know why he was asked about that, but nevertheless, it was noted that Damien had a tattoo, E-V-I-L, across his left knuckles. And he stated that Jason Baldwin had the same tattoo on his knuckles. If you don't spell well, that's evil. He was asked if he would submit to hair samples and blood samples. He said he didn't object to the samples being taken.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He was asked if he was willing to take a polygraph test. And he said, sure, he would take the test as well. At this point, Sudbury actually leaves the room to try and set up a polygraph examination. He said that he thought he was very intelligent. He dropped out of school, but he was self-taught. He was very smart, and he was more intelligent than most people. That's Damon's opinion of himself.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
At this time, he was turned over to Detective Durham for a polygraph examination. After a time, Detective Durham came and met with me and other officers and reported that Damien had been untruthful and, according to the polygraph, was involved in the murders. And so, at this point, the investigation into Damien starts to ramp up.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But for the purposes of our discussion, there's nothing we can do about this except just assume that the boys entered the woods no earlier than 630 and probably closer to seven. And it's safe to say they were murdered sometime between seven and nine. And I think that's generous, but I'm going to keep it generous.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Before this, he basically had a few juvenile officers who were interested in him. He's now come in. He says all this weird stuff. They do the polygraph. They find him to be untruthful, whether accurate or not. And so now they're really going to look into Damien.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And the investigation into Damien will ramp up, though I will note, on a track parallel with the rest of the investigation, which is going to continue to look into various people in and around West Memphis.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And look, I think when we cover these cases, these famous cases, we'll do these deep dives. As important as what our final conclusion is, to me, is giving you the truth of what actually happened. Because so much of these cases is just, I mean, I hate to say they're lies, but they're lies. It's their myth. It's lore, right?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And if you've seen Paradise Lost, the lore is Damien Echols wore black and listened to Metallica. And so they said, oh, you're a devil worshiper. You must have killed these kids. And that's not what happened. And did they maybe buy into too much of the devil worship stuff? Did they listen to Damien too much? Did they give him too much credit?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Should they have been more incredulous when they're listening to him? Maybe. That's a fair criticism. But... I think they had to follow this stuff up when they're talking to some random kid and he's like, well, you'll probably find candle wax there. And they find candle wax there. And he's saying things like, because this is something people talk about to this day.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
A two hour window when they could have been murdered, probably a little later than seven, probably a little earlier than nine. But we'll say seven to nine just for our purposes here.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And we've mentioned it's so small. It's such a small patch of woods. How did nobody see anything? How did nobody hear anything? Well, Damien has an answer for that. One was in the woods and you had the expressway right there. So the noise would have covered up the murders.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This from someone who later on is going to say he wasn't really that familiar with Robin Hood Hills, which is a lie, by the way. But he's giving them sort of the kind of information that, frankly, a lot of cocky killers give. When they are interviewed by the police, they give real information because it's almost like you can't get me like I'm going to give you just enough. Right.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But you can't get me. I'm too smart for you. Right. I'm smarter than most people. This is what Damien says. So if Damien is innocent and if he spent all those years in prison as an innocent person, he bears part of the responsibility for that, for the way he acted. Now, he's 18 years old and 18 year olds are stupid. But nevertheless, he is doing these things. You can read it for yourself.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Go to Callahan. You can read his comments. You can read his statements. And you can see why the police maybe improperly were led down this path that's going to lead eventually to Damien being convicted for this crime.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
he is he could be a red herring but he is absolutely a red herring you have to investigate so the fact that they hone in on him is not surprising once you read this first report so basically at this point you've got at least some members of this investigation who now very much consider damien their prime suspect it's going to continue they're going to look at other people we're going to talk about that next week some more but more and more the focus will turn to damien
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Until we get to the point where Jesse Miskelly is going to give a confession implicating Damian and Jason Baldwin. So I do want to quickly, as we get to the end of this episode, some of you have been asking for books to read on this case. Since we'll probably be doing this for the next six months or so, you know, you want something to do in the interim. So just to run through the books we read.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
There are more books, but these are the books we read that I think are worth reading to a certain extent. Okay, so on the side of the defense. So if you're looking for pro-defense books, Harvest of Innocence by Dan Stidham. Dan Stidham is the attorney for Jesse Miskelly. Very interesting book. I think there's a lot of truth revealed in that book that Dan didn't mean to reveal.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I have a lot to say about Dan and his approach to this case later on, but it's a good book to read. Just know that some of the way he characterizes things that happened at trial, if you actually listen to the trial, you'll see it's not entirely accurate. Look, all the trials are available. Transcripts are available on Callahan.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And it's hard to say exactly how long it would have taken to commit these murders and clean up. Obviously, that's hard to say. And people, I mean, I've never committed a murder, but I have to imagine if you're murdering someone, your adrenaline is pumping. You're probably moving faster than even you think. You're not taking your time. So it probably was faster than we think.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
There's a YouTube channel, which I've shared on the gallery, where you can listen to the trial. It's a very fascinating trial to listen to. You can't watch it, unfortunately, but you can listen to it. Do that. But anyways, Harvest of Innocence by Dan Stidham and then The Devil's Knot by Mara Leverett.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
These are both books that obviously start out from the perspective that the West Memphis Three are innocent. If you want books by the family, Box Full of Nightmares by Terry Hobbs and Untying the Knot by John Mark Byers. Very interesting for their perspectives.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
The most middle-of-the-road book, the best book on the case, I wish it had been updated, I wish it were still in print, is Blood of Innocence by Guy Riel, Mark Peresquia, and Bartholomew Sullivan. It's not available to buy new, but you can find used copies all over the Internet. So check that out. And then the West Memphis Three are guilty perspectives.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
The Case Against the West Memphis Three by Gary Meese. He actually has a couple other books, but that's the one I read was The Case Against the West Memphis Three. and Abomination by William Ramsey. I like the case against the West Memphis Three better. But Abomination, if you don't want to read Callahan, Ramsey basically just quotes entire documents from Callahan.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Most of his book is quoting documents from Callahan. which can be valuable if you want to hear the documents in Callahan that are the worst for the West Memphis Three. He's going to highlight those. So that's a bunch of books that you can read. They are Harvest of Innocence, Blood of Innocence, The Devil's Knot are great, really good reads. Box full of nightmares is pretty good.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Untying the knots, okay. Case Against the Weapons 3 can be tough, but really good for laying out the argument that they're guilty. And like I said, Abomination is just sort of rounds up the documents. Well, we are five episodes into this. We are halfway through our preliminary outline. So probably only about 20 episodes to go in this case. I know you are sad that it's coming to a close.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This is the initial outline. And just to remind everyone what we're doing here. By the time we finish this 50-page, 30,000-word outline, basically, we want you to be so well-versed in this case that you know the case and you now can really discuss it, right?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Because we've got to get you up to speed on all the facts so that when we dive into the alibis and the histories— This is just giving you the tools to have the discussions.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
western sieve 101 and 102 like you got to take those classes so that you can take like the history of the roman empire right or like the rise and fall of you know the german empire or the british empire whatever you got to take those base courses and that's what this is this is the base course in west memphis three and then we're going to do your phd level classes when we get done with this so and then the existential questions of what is
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But given, as Alice said, it's three people. They're not shot. They're murdered in a very visceral way. They're tied up. They're hidden in the water. Their clothes are hidden in the water. This would have taken a little while. So remember that as we're going through this. At around 630, we have our first alibi. This is, as I've said, the infamous alibi. Slapping of Cody Dollar by Connie Mulder.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Exactly. By the end, we'll get to what is. So buckle up. Like I said, we're going to be doing sort of one-off episodes in between. Not in between, but in addition to some of these episodes for those of y'all who get tired. Just to give you a little, what is it? A palate cleanser? What do we call that? What's the French word for that? An amuse-bouche. I'll give you some amuse-bouches.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
All right. Do you have time for a question or do you need to wrap it up? Okay. My poor wife's probably like, I wish you would come out with a baby.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This is true. JC103 wants to know, do you have any advice for someone who wants to start a podcast?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Absolutely. The things I would say is if you want to do a podcast, do a podcast, do it about something you love and do it for yourself. That's the most important thing. And then as you continue, do it for the people who love your podcast. Never, ever, ever tailor what you're doing to the haters because the haters are always going to hate you. I'll never make them happy.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I used to believe in constructive criticism. And I still do. Like if Alice gave me constructive criticism or if some of our most loyal listeners, the people in the chat right now gave me criticism, I would listen to them and consider maybe changing things up a little bit. But you cannot try and change.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Because people who hate the fact that we have so much banner, if we got rid of the banner, guess what? The people who like the banner would now be angry that we got rid of the banner, right? You can never satisfy those people. The other thing I'll say, and this is a do as I say, not as I do, ignore the trolls. There's no point.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
The only reason to engage with the trolls is if you enjoy it, which I enjoy it. Like then you engage with them, but just know it makes them happy that you care about what they think, because most of them are sad, pathetic people with nothing in their lives. All that they get joy out of is when someone who is not as sad and pathetic as them responds to one of their comments.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And that's like the great, Oh, you care. You care about, you care about what I said. It's like the most important thing in my life. Right? So just know that like, no matter what you get out of it, they're going to enjoy it too. So only do it. If you really enjoy it, don't do it to try and put them in their place. Cause you never will. You'll just make them happy that you're responding.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Now, I mean, there are times like there was I'm so bad. I'm such a bad person when it comes to the Karen Reid case because I just love getting those people riled up. And it's so easy.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I literally said the great thing about Karen Reid is you can just mention her name and all the people just come like flies to honey and give you engagement. And like there was Turtle Boy commenting on it. There were all these idiots commenting on it. I'm like, guys, you're doing exactly what I said you would do. Today, I put up a post and then sent a message to the gallery that it was bait.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Legend in the trailer park. Had it not been for the murders, they'd probably still be talking about it today. Supposedly at 6.30, Jesse is at or around Stephanie Dollar's house witnessing the aftermath of this. And then according to Jesse, at around 7, he leaves to go to Dias to wrestle. If that's true, Jesse has an alibi. He did not commit these crimes.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And it was like they just fell for it just completely. You could make a living just tweeting about Karen Reid and getting engagement from all the crazy people. It's wild. So if you enjoy that, do it. But don't don't engage.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Exactly. Which can be fun. But I admit, shouldn't do that. You know, it's beneath me. I know. I'm immature. I'm working on it. I'm trying to get better. But that's my advice on doing a podcast. Just do what you enjoy. I mean, that's the main thing, right? If you enjoy doing a podcast, do it.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I was around when it happened. So, anyway. Okay. Well, love you guys. Thank y'all for joining us for this. Shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gma.com. Let us know what you're thinking. If you have any episode requests, send them there. You can comment on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. All those places.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
The conversation is no doubt going on in the gallery about this case and many other cases. Join that conversation. Or if you would like to get your episodes early and ad free, join Patreon. And in fact, you can actually watch us record these episodes and interact with us as we do it for as little as $3 a month. All right, Alice, what do you have anything else you want to add before we sign off?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Look, this is the be-all, end-all of Westminster 3 coverage. Ain't going to be nothing after that. It's just this. There are no updates, that's true. Y'all want to be a part of this. Be here at the ground level. Okay, guys, we'll be back next week with more of this discussion. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are the prosecutors. I'm ready to go live. Can we go live?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
You can do it. Hold on, am I doing anything weird for you?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
A little echoey? Yeah, mine was just moving slow. I'm not sure.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So 90210 comes on at 7, and according to Damien's family, they are visiting another family at around that time. Two members of the family will confirm this, that at least when 90210 was beginning, Damien was there with his family at 7 o'clock.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Did you talk about progressing? Progressing? Because I was going to regress. I don't know. We're regressing today because what we're going to do is we're going to take a step back in the timeline and just hit the highlights that we've already covered. Because I know in the last four episodes, we covered a lot of times, put a lot of information out there. We're about to get into the investigation.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And I think it's worth taking a step back and looking at the sort of key points in the timeline. just to sort of orient you as we move forward, as you're thinking through sort of what the police are discovering.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This is not necessarily the same kind of ironclad alibi as Jesse would have if he went to Dyess at 7, which is 45 minutes away, and there's no way he was involved. But... It's still a pretty good one. We're going to talk about it in depth later on. At around the same time, 7 o'clock, Dana Moore is looking for Michael. In the 7 o'clock hour, she will talk to Terry Hobbs.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This is interesting if you're a Terry Hobbs fan of Committing the Murder. And Terry Hobbs is the one we know the least about exactly where he was when. So we kind of have to piece it together just a little bit. But if he is seen by people in the 7 o'clock hour, it's hard to believe he's also managed to be in the woods, murder the kids, and clean up.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Because whoever did this would have at least been wet, would probably have been muddy, and might have been bloody. So we don't know exactly what happened there, but in that 7 o'clock hour, she's talking to Terry Hobbs. At 7.30, John Mark Byers is talking to a police officer.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
At 8, he is calling the sheriff's department, which means John Mark Byers, if really any of these statements about when the kids went into the woods are true, it couldn't have been John Mark Byers. He's talking to the police officer at 7.30. That's when he runs into him. So that means he's been in the process of getting to where the police officer is some period before that.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
There's no way he could have done this. Shortly thereafter, after he calls the sheriff's department, Dana Moore is at his house. At 8.08, Regina Meeks is talking to John Mark Byers at the Byers' residence. So it really seems difficult to figure out how he could have done that. Sometime in the 8 o'clock hour, Terry Hobbs will join John Mark Byers to look for the boys.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So if it's Terry Hobbs, if that's your alternative suspect to the West Memphis Three... Incredibly tight timeline for him, too. There are windows where maybe he could have done this, but they're very small windows.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And he has to have gone into the woods, murdered the boys, come out of the woods into the neighborhood, the very neighborhood where the boys disappeared from, where people are looking for them, probably muddy, probably wet, maybe bloody, get back to his house, change clothes, run into Dana Moore, talk to John Mark Byers in a very short period of time. So hard, but not impossible for him.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Now, one person I have not mentioned is Jason Baldwin. Jason Baldwin, typically, when people look at this case, he's the one that strikes people as the most likely to be innocent. If the West Memphis Three, some of them committed the crime and some of them didn't, Jason Baldwin is the one that people just don't think did it because they've seen Paradise Lost.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He looks like an absolute child in Paradise Lost. And some of the things we'll talk about later lead people to doubt that he was involved. But I haven't mentioned him because of all of them. He has the weakest alibi. Basically, he has none. He has various people who put him in different places. And we'll talk about that in depth later. But none of it really hangs together.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Now, look, he's a 17-year-old kid, 1993. So he may not have been keeping that close tabs on where he was. But everybody else at least has somewhere they were at various points. Okay. Mr. Bojangles. Mr. Bojangles. At 840. Bojangles will call the police about their visitor who has come to be known as Mr. Bojangles. Now, no one saw him arrive. He comes into this restaurant.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He goes into the women's restroom. We'll talk about this more in depth later. He's in the women's restroom basically when a customer goes to use it and comes back and says, hey guys, there's a dude who's like covered in mud and blood who's in your restroom. And it's really weird. You might actually call the police. So no one sees him come in.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So we don't know exactly when he came in, but we know that the manager will later testify that he gave the man about 15 to 20 minutes to leave before he called the police. So he goes into the women's restroom and basically is like, Hey man, you need to get out of here. Like, I don't know what's going on with you, but you need to get out of here. He then waits till around 8.40 to call.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So that would indicate that Mr. Bojangles arrived in the restaurant much closer to 8 o'clock than 8.40. And the walk from the scene of the crime to Bojangles would have taken at least 30 minutes, maybe longer. The most direct route is through the bayou. He almost certainly didn't go that way. So he would have had to have gone down some roads. It's about a mile and a half.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
It's true. It's true. But that's not what I was talking about because I wasn't late because of the baby. Oh, no, I was late because of the basketball game. Roll Tide, March Madness keeps going.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Probably would have taken him at least 30 minutes. That means he's leaving the crime scene at around 7.30. Not impossible, but once again, incredibly tight timeline if you think Mr. Bojangles is involved. But then we have the timing aspect, which if you believe it, blows all this out the water. And that's Ryan Clark.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So Ryan Clark is in the woods with his friends and they hear noises in the woods. That sounds like loud splashes in the water. Five loud splashes is what they describe. And later a gunshot. This is between nine and nine 30. This is one of those things that keeps me awake at night. Like if they had just gone on into the woods, like what would they have seen? That sort of moment.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Maybe they wouldn't have seen anything. Obviously, it's three boys. They're teenagers, but they're still young. Their senses are heightened. Their adrenaline is pumping. They're liable to hear a lot of things in the woods. So we cannot say for certain that what they're hearing is any kind of cover-up.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But if you think it is a cover-up, then everyone we've just talked about, except for the West Memphis Three themselves, could not have done it. It could not have been Terry Hobbs. It could not have been John Mark Byers. It could not have been Mr. Bojangles. In order to reopen the door for those suspects, have to disregard what Ryan Clark said and what he saw.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And really, other than just we can come up with reasons why he would have heard something that didn't happen, there's no good reason to think that. There's no reason to think he would lie for some reason. For instance, at 919, and this is to further reinforce this, Terry Hobbs calls the police from the Catfish Island restaurant where Pam works.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And at 920, we have Jennifer Bearden who's going to say she talked to Damien. Now, she says this in her initial statement to police. We'll talk about why that time is probably much later later on. Between 9.30 and 10, the Hollingsworth family see Damian and Domini, who they describe as Domini, near the crime scene on the service road that runs parallel to the interstate.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Both are described as muddy. This sighting, and we're going to talk about it a lot, is really important for what I think should be an obvious reason if we talk about the timeline. Ryan Clark is right. And the splashes really happened. And then shortly thereafter, the Hollingsworth see Damien. That is pretty damning for Damien.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
If you believe the Hollingsworth clan, it is a really bad piece of evidence for Damien. We will talk about them later, why there may be problems with their statements and why their statements may be believable. Okay, so that is where we are at the timeline up to this point. Alice, do you have anything to add before we dive back in?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
It's true. It's true. You know, Alabama broke the record for most three-pointers in a game tonight, which probably means we won't make a single one in the next game and just get blown out. Just saying. Just saying.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Hi everyone, this is Jillian with Court Junkie. Court Junkie is a true crime podcast that covers court cases and criminal trials using audio clips and interviews with people close to the cases. Court Junkie is available on Apple Podcasts and podcastone.com. I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And look, I think this is really important, and Alice is making a good point. So, number one, I think you're right. This would have been trial and error because you would have been hurrying. So I bet the first time you tried to do it, it didn't work. You would have had to really work at this.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
The other thing, if anyone can come up with a way this was done such that the person who was doing it would not have been soaking wet and muddy, I would like them to explain that to me. Because I can't come up with a way that you could do this without being soaking wet and muddy. And I think that's important. For a couple reasons.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
One of the reasons is John Mark Byers, and one of the reasons is Terry Hobbs. So if they did it, they had to have done it, got them down into the mud, and then left the area, presumably the way they came, which would have been across this diversion canal, across the pipe bridge, back into the neighborhood. And then made it back to their homes with no one noticing them. Not impossible.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Not saying it is. But people saw all sorts of stuff. And there were a lot of people around. And there were people who were even looking for the kids early on. To me, that's always been a challenge with it being either one of the stepfathers or really anyone in that neighborhood.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
But stepfathers aside, if you just think it was someone who lived nearby who knew the boys who followed them into the woods that night and murdered them. To me, that's really difficult. If this were a super planned crime, maybe they brought a change of clothes. But I don't feel like most people think it was a super planned crime. So it seems like there would have been some visibility.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I think this leads you to think a couple of things. It's probably not someone from the neighborhood, at least in your initial thoughts, just thinking about this. A trucker becomes more attractive because they could have parked their truck at Blue Beacon, gotten back into the cab. Nobody noticed them. They've got other clothes in there. They change clothes. Right.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So that's a little bit more attractive. Now, the big problem with that is why would a trucker spend so much time hiding the bodies? Usually you would think that someone who knows the boys or is familiar enough in the area that they would want to have some time to get away. The time to get away and the time it takes for the police to find the bodies is...
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
is more important than the danger of spending more time with the bodies. Now, one thing I'll say about this, if it were the trucker, because this is such a small area and it is so visible, maybe even a stranger would think somebody's going to find these bodies immediately. And even though I'm a stranger, to get the 15 minutes I need to get out of here, I'm going to take the time to hide them.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I mean, that's one possibility. But either way, this is a striking part of the case that I feel like people talk about because the fighting of the bodies is so haunting. But really getting into what it means, I feel like people don't spend as much time there as maybe they should.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And I can tell you guys, as a man and a dad, the guy in your life wants something from Quince. I've recently got this awesome sports coat and it makes me look good. I don't have to dress up as much, but I'm still professional. Quince has everything for the guy in your life. So, for the dad who deserves better than basic, Quince has you covered.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Go to quince.com slash prosecutors for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash prosecutors to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash prosecutors
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And let me tell you guys, Minnow has everything you could want, whether it's the girls rash guard one piece, the boys boardies or the unisex rash guard shirts. Me and my family, we just went to the pool for the first time this weekend and we had our matching Minnow outfits. I had a swimsuit. My kids had swimsuits. We just looked amazing. We were like a picture perfect family.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And you should do the same thing. And it's not just that these things look good. All suits have UPF. 50 protection blocking 98% of UVA and UVB rays. They are easy to put on and easy to take off, which I know is really important when you're trying to get the kids dressed. They keep the sand out of the lining and they have a buttery smooth hand feel. You are going to love these swimsuits.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
If you're like me and you're going out to the pool or you're going out to the beach, you need to check out Minnow today.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So the boys are sort of into this mud. You know, some people, it's been described as sticks were used. I don't know how they would be used.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I only speak the truth, Alice, so if I said you're put-together, you must be put-together.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And like, I love, I love people being creative in their thoughts. This was a hundred percent intentional. There's no question about it. No need to speculate about it. Whoever did this, push the bodies into the mud. That's how this happened. And if you're still not sure, as we're talking about a second, they did the same thing with the clothes. They wrapped the clothes around sticks.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Homely in the British sense of the word. Like a fine cigar and a comfortable rug and a warm fire and a nice cup of tea.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They drove the sticks down into the mud to hide the clothes.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So in addition to being found in the water, one other interesting fact about this is they weren't found together, at least not all of them. So Stevie Branch and Christopher Byers were essentially found next to each other. They were about five feet away from each other, which I think, given what you're doing, isn't that great a distance.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
But Michael Moore was found nearly 30 feet away, north up the creek towards the Blue Beacon. And this is going to become important when we talk about some of the theories about what happened in this case. And I will say this. Most people who look at that fact think that Michael tried to get away. And even people who think the West Memphis three are completely innocent.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Maybe some hummus, pretzel chips. Big fan. Okay, well, that's the last fun thing we're going to talk about today. So we're back for Episode 9, West Memphis 3. Took a little detour into Satan last week, but now we're getting back to some of the details of the case. As we promised you, we're sort of going into more depth about various aspects.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And there's a part of that that becomes important as well. I think that's what this is evidence of, that at some point he tried to get away. You know, he ran towards the interstate and somebody stopped him. Probably killed him there and then disposed of his body in the same way that the other two boys' bodies were disposed of, but a little bit of a distance away from each other.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So then there's the scene itself. And the police were surprised by the condition of the scene. And I think you can almost call the scene... It's almost inexplicable, though. We've talked about why some of this is. But... I'll just tell you, according to the case summary created in 1993 by the police, there was no blood, quote, That's really interesting.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So that means in one of these official reports, the police are saying... There's no evidence they were killed here. This is a big deal, right? You need to identify, do we have two crime scenes or one? Do we have a murder scene and a dump scene? Or do we have a murder scene and a dump scene? That's a very important distinction. If you have two crime scenes, that changes your calculus a lot.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Now, the thing is, based on everything else we've talked about, Where this was, people seeing the kids in the woods, the difficulties of moving them. I think most people, though not everyone, believes they were killed there. There is sort of a theory that they were killed somewhere else and this was a dump location. The problem with that is whenever you tell me the killer...
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Got someone in one place, took them somewhere else and killed them and then brought them back to the place they got them. I just don't buy that. That doesn't make any sense. Certainly violates Occam's razor. And given how open this place is, this is not the place you take them back to.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So it's strange. There's no blood found there, but there is what's described as a fingerprint found there, which may sound weird, but essentially it seems like it almost looks sounds the way it's described is if someone at some point put their hand down. Remember. Why is the creek full? It's been raining. It's muddy. So someone put their hand down.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And when they did, their hand sort of went into the mud a little bit and created this thumbprint, fingerprint, however you want to describe it, into the mud. There were also several tennis shoe prints. This was all in the mud near the site of the dumping. Now, the police did what they could here.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They took plaster castings of the shoe prints and the earth containing the fingerprint was actually removed from the area. They tried to compare this, but frankly, the way it seems described in the trial transcripts, They took the plaster cast, but they couldn't get enough detail to really match this to a shoe.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
We're going to talk about where the bodies were found, how the bodies were found. We're also going to talk about some of the autopsy reports. They're gruesome. We're going to read them to you pretty much just straight away. We're just going to read you what it says. And it's tough reading, but a lot of it, like most autopsies, it's sort of put in a very scientific, cold way.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They could do a little bit of size comparisons, though that's always a guess, particularly in the mud like this. But they really couldn't do it. So sometimes you'll hear they were compared to all of the suspects and all the suspects were definitively excluded. That is a definite overstatement of the evidence.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It was more like, yeah, none of them were ruled in, but really the details weren't that great. And it seems like that is the same with this quote unquote fingerprint. So, you know, you see that and you're like hopeful this is going to be it. But it turned out not really to be that helpful. So the police, they find the bodies. And they're like, we need to drain this creek.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
There may be other physical evidence in the bottom. Other evidence we haven't found. Other evidence that's been pressed down into the mud. But this was basically a failed effort. And that included some of the missing clothing. Although the police would find much of the boys' clothes wrapped around sticks, driven into the bottom of the creek bed, also to hide the clothes.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Which is interesting because you could have just taken the clothes with you. I mean, that's another thing to think about, right? Why conceal the clothes? You know, let's say you're soaking wet and you're covered in mud. You know, is it that much more suspicious for you to have a handful of clothes with you as you're walking out? And you're taking extra time to do this.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So whoever did this felt it was necessary to conceal the bodies and rather than to take the clothes, to conceal the clothes as well.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And that's a great theory. There's one problem with it. They didn't find all the clothes. there were two pairs of underwear and five socks that were missing and never found. And, you know, my kids don't always wear socks. My kids probably don't always wear underwear, but the fact that you have two pairs of underwear and five socks missing is a little strange.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And then we're going to sort of discuss Dr. Peretti's testimony, which I think explains a little bit in more layman's terms what you're hearing in the autopsies. Now, look, I'm not a doctor. Alice is not a doctor. We famously don't know much about medicine. So I'm actually interested if you're out there and you have some expertise in this area.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And this Creek, you can imagine, and we can talk about this more later, but you can imagine maybe some of this gets back into this diversion canal, I guess, but, But I don't know how much the clothing was really moving. I don't really know how much stuff was moving in this creek such that maybe it got sucked in to the bayou.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And you would think just based on how this whole creek exists, that it would be more like the water flows into the creek as it flows out of the creek. So I don't know about this. But they drained that whole creek and they didn't find these clothes. And that's intriguing because, as we know, killers might not take all the clothes, but sometimes they take trophies.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And so that might make you start thinking about serial killers. It's possible that there's some prosaic explanation for this, but it is a little unusual that these clothes are missing.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And that's one thing that's endlessly frustrating about this case is you'll come upon things like this and you'll think, is this significant? And you can come up with reasons it was, but it's very easy to come up with counter arguments to why it's not.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And I feel like that happens again and again and again and again in this case where you see something and you're like, that seems significant, but it's like, is it really significant? There's all these other explanations for it. There's so little that's solid in this case. Everything is ephemeral. You're trying to grab onto something solid to build your theory around, and it's really difficult.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
One thing that was absolutely found were the two bicycles belonging to two of the boys. Remember, they only had two bikes. It's interesting where they were found. They were found submerged in five feet of water, but not in the creek. They were found in this diversion canal we've been talking about, this 10 mile bayou. And it was about 50 yards away, right near this pipe bridge.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
As I said before, we're going to try and get an expert to come on and talk about this, but we'd love to hear your thoughts on it. So I hope you'll pay close attention with that. Alice, you ready to dive in?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
That's where they were, right? So that makes you think that the boys left their bikes. Now, where did they leave them? A little less clear. Some people say there's no way they would have walked their bikes across the bridge. It seems like other people who played in the woods talked about doing just that. So, it's hard to say. Why is this significant?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
If they left their bikes on the neighborhood side of the bridge... then you would think you would only notice them if you came from the neighborhood. You would come from the neighborhood, you would see the bikes, you would see the kids, you'd kill the kids, you'd hide the bodies, you'd hide the clothes. Then you would go back over the bayou, take the bikes and throw them in the water.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
That's how you would do it, right? If you came from the Blue Beacon side and the bikes are all the way across the bridge, you might not and probably wouldn't even know they were there. So the chances that you would throw them in the water are slim. If, on the other hand, the boys walked their bikes into the forest, that is probably not that significant. I will note one thing.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
There's at least one person who very early on in the day the boys disappeared, so probably not related to their deaths, said they saw bikes parked near the entrance into Robin Hood Hills. Bikes that fit the description of the boys. So that might make you think they were in a habit of parking their bikes on the neighborhood roads.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Hard to do anything other than speculate on this, but it is one thing that I think is an interesting, a small but interesting fact about where the bikes are found that may tell you something about who did this. The absence of blood. We talked about this. It is something that people talk about a lot. Now, we're going to talk about luminal tests later.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So there was blood there, but you couldn't see it. And this is a violent murder of three children. You would expect to see more. The police described the bank as looking as though it had been, quote, washed. And how exactly that would have happened is hard to say.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Now, the other possibility is that the injuries the police believed were the results of things like stabbings were actually animal predation that happened after the boys were murdered in the water and that the blood there was no blood because boys were dead. These are postmortem wounds. So you wouldn't even have blood anyway. But if you did, you would be in the water.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
If the boys are primarily beaten to death, the absence of blood might make more sense. Though, as you're going to see when we talk about the autopsies, these are blows to the head. There's some real damage to the boys' heads. You would expect, as we've talked about before, head wounds tend to bleed. So even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And there's another problem.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So someone in the chat asked if the bikes were fingerprinted. The conditions here were terrible. It was testified to fingerprints, and who knew this, are apparently like 85% water. So the best way to destroy fingerprints is to submerge something. So if there were fingerprints on those bikes, when they submerged the bikes, there were not going to be any fingerprints.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They tried, look, they did all kinds of testing. The Alabama Forensics Lab got in on it, tried to do some testing to help them out. They just didn't find much. We're going to talk later on about the physical evidence in this case. Spoiler alert, there ain't much. And this is another area where they just didn't find anything.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Yeah, Robin Hood Woods, basically a character in this case, you know, as much as the convicted are, as much as the witnesses are, as much as the victims are, Robin Hood Woods is just it's an entity in this story that is always there in the background. We want to talk about it. A little bit more.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Now, police did notice that unlike other areas of the forest floor, the location next to the bodies had no leaves or other detritus there. So it was sort of cleaned off. And reeds of grass were bent over and broken with their heads actually sticking in the mud.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And so it seemed like someone really did clean this entire area, maybe with their feet, maybe with water from the creek, in an effort to hide evidence. Which means, once again, think about... the time this murder would have taken. You have to find the boys. You have to corral the boys. You have to murder the boys. You have to take their clothes off. You have to hide their clothes.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You have to hide the bodies. You have to wash off the creek. You have to go back, get the bikes, throw them in the thing. That probably takes the least amount of time. But nevertheless, even with adrenaline pumping, even with you moving quickly, this is a crime that required an amount of time to be in there.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I think this is one of the reasons that Gary Gitchell, from the very beginning, felt like this was not one person. I think he sort of looked at the scene and thought, this required so much effort. If there were more than one person, if this was some sort of group activity, that would explain how they were able to do all this and do it quickly enough that no one found them and no one saw them.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Is that necessary? No. Number one, not necessary to control three eight-year-olds. Very easy. We've talked about this before. And it is hard to believe that you could do everything that was necessary to do and get away with this crime. But even if you think the West Memphis three did it, very few people saw them. Right.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I mean, there's we're going to talk about one group of witnesses who claims to have seen one of them, but the rest of them got away without anybody seeing them. Right. So it happened. They managed or he or she managed to do this in the darkening night, I guess, by the light of a full moon. Quickly enough, silently enough, and thoroughly enough that this scene appeared as if nothing had happened.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And had it not been for Ridge, I think it was Ridge. falling into the water and finding this first body. They might have not found these bodies until the creek drained. I mean, it might have been a very long time, which is so hard to believe, but that is apparently how well this was covered up.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
We've talked about it at length, but honestly, I don't think you can ever talk about it too much because this is where the bodies were found. This is probably where the murder occurred. And there are lots of things that you can draw from this, as we said before. So the Robin Hood Woods were divided by a diversion canal called Ten Mile Bridge. Now, this is essentially a straight man-made river.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It was raising flags. He said, there's no way that that fish should weigh 7.9 pounds.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
The neighborhood kind of runs up to it. There are some woods on the neighborhood side of the diversion ditch. Then there's a what has been called a pipe bridge, which is basically a few pipes across this that you could walk across. Now, it wasn't exactly I would not want to walk across it.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So you have this one group of witnesses. I forget which family it is, but it's all a family. I think it's maybe Otto Bailey and Junior Bailey and Mama Bailey. I think it's the CB troll. I could be making that up, but I think they're the ones who say that they saw backpacks. Now think about this for a second. Now they could just be wrong. All three of them could just be wrong.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They could just be remembering something else. But let's give it a moment. Assume they did have backpacks. It's just going to fly to fancy. Why would they have backpacks? Now they had already gone home after school, right? So remember, Michael Moore, his house backs up to the school. He goes home. You would think he would have left his backpack. Chris Byers, he shows up at his house.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
He's actually locked out. He, Chris Byers, great kid. I mean, crazy kid. I'm sure he drove his parents crazy. He's locked out. He can't get in. He actually breaks a window trying to get in. You know, he was always getting in trouble. But he was, you know, he was also like the kind of kid who's a problem solver. He didn't just hang out waiting for somebody to show up.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Like he's trying to get into his house. But eventually, remember, his stepdad gets home, finds him riding a skateboard on his stomach in the middle of the road, brings him back, gives him a spanking, and sends him to clean up the carport. So you wouldn't think he wouldn't have his backpack, right? So that's Christopher. So then you have Stevie. So Stevie's going home.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Remember, his mom actually picked him up a little bit earlier from school. Question why that happened earlier. Found out why. She had his little sister with her and didn't want to wait around. So she just checked him out. That's why he went home a little earlier. But she walks him home. So he goes home, too. So if they just had their bags from school that day, they would have left them.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So they wouldn't have had them for that reason. One thing people have speculated about, there's at least one witness who says they spoke to the boys and the boys said something about running away. They were running away. Now, remember, Chris had just gotten into trouble. You know, he had been disciplined by his dad.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And we know that Stevie's mom had said, if you're not back by 430, you're going to be grounded. Well, whenever the murders happened, it was well past 430. So maybe you imagine almost like an Asha degree situation. The boys packed their backpacks with like, you know, candy and a change of clothes or whatever, and are taking with them to quote run away.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I know this is a lot of speculation, but it could be important. If you knew the motivation of the boys and what they were actually doing in those woods, were they just playing and they lost track of time until, you know, the sun is pretty much setting and, Or do they have some purpose in the woods? I don't know. Like I said, it's not speculation.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I would probably fall off of it because I have very little balance, but I can imagine the neighborhood kids crossed it fairly easily. And in fact, there were people from the neighborhood who reported that they would walk across this to some of the businesses on the other side, the Blue Beacon Truck Wash, the Love's Truck Stop.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
But the fact of the backpacks, to me, it's one of those rabbit holes that I find myself falling down and thinking about that has no real rational explanation. And I feel like most likely, despite the running away comment, I think they're just wrong. I don't think they had the backpacks. I think this was an error. I think this was a witness testimony that is faulty.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So that is going to be my position on this. I may be wrong. It's difficult to figure out what it means if I am wrong.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I will say one other thing about the backpacks. If the boys had backpacks, I think it changes everything about the case. I think number one, it tells you they went back to their homes at some point after we know they went back. Because other people who were seeing the boys at earlier times do not describe them as having backpacks. And not only they had backpacks.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So if they eventually had them, they didn't have them in the beginning. So I think that means they went back home. Later on, we're going to talk about a fact that makes you wonder if they did go back home. And that could be very important. So I'll just leave that for you there. But we will return to it later.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
There were people who worked at these places, and this was a path through... and across the bayou up to where those locations were. So on one side of this, as I said, is the neighborhood. On the other side is the truck wash, is the truck stop, is the service road, and the interstate. The boys were found on this truck wash side in a small creek that branched off from Ten Mile Bayou.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
If you've looked at this case, if you've watched any of our videos, you've seen maps of this. So I think you probably have some familiarity with what I'm talking about. As we've said, this was a very small area. We're talking about a football field worth of space.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And I would just say this, I learned a lot about luminol when we did the Bone Valley case, the Schofield case, and the fact that luminol reacts to all sorts of organic compounds makes you wonder how effective it is when applied to the organic setting. I will say this, the pattern of luminol in this case makes me believe this is probably at least somewhat accurate.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So not a lot of room to commit a murder, not a lot of room to do much of anything from where the bodies were found, where the boys were probably killed. You could see various things. You could hear the interstate. You could see the apartments.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And look, I think this helps corroborate that the crime happened there. Not necessarily conclusive. You could imagine, you know, if you're bringing the bodies back, you could have transfer in the same way that where the bodies were placed after they were pulled from the water. You have the similar thing.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
But I think to me, in addition to all the other factors, I do believe the murder happened there where the bodies were concealed.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And here's something that's interesting about this. So one thing we've talked about this before, you're trying to figure out time of death. Very important. Something that is debated in this case. We're going to talk about that some in the next episode. Well, one of the things you look for are blowfly larvae.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So blowflies, essentially, as soon as you die, it's like this is like the drop of blood in the ocean and sharks thing, which I know that's a that's a myth. But nevertheless, the fact that it works this way, as soon as you die, flies start to attack your body and they start to lay eggs and they turn into larvae. Larvae will be found in the boy's eyes.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Now, this is sort of a mystery for a lot of people because they think, how is that possible? They would not develop underwater and they don't. So they're right. So that means either the larva had time to develop before the bodies were put into the water or it happened afterwards. And initially, this may seem like, wow, this is really powerful stuff. Two things about it.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Number one, the larva actually develops faster in warmer weather. As we pointed out, it was pretty hot the day the bodies were found. And number two, as we know, and this is something if you want to criticize the police for, you can, though I understand the natural human reaction. The bodies were removed from the water when they were found. It took hours for the coroner to get there.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Yes, the larva was a little bit more developed than you might expect, given the amount of time, but it was warm and the flies were immediately attacking the bodies. In fact, and I don't recommend you do this, but if you watch Paradise Lost, the first episode, and you watch the first five minutes and you see the video of the boys, you can see the flies, even in that video.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So I think the weather and the way the bodies were handled explains that it's not contamination, but it's almost contamination because it means that that method of determining time of death is basically a lost cause. Really, it's the time from when the bodies were removed from the water to when they were taken by the coroners. And it doesn't tell you much at all.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
okay we lied to you i told you we'd never lie to you we lied to you i'm sorry it wasn't an intentional lie it was a mistake but we thought we would get to the autopsies the cause of death today but as is as our want we ended up talking so much that we have now gotten to that point in the outline and it deserves way more justice than we can do to it even if we made this a long episode and
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
This is going to be a difficult conversation. It will be a difficult episode, and there's a lot of terrible stuff we're going to talk about. But the boys deserve it. They deserve you to know exactly what happened to them, to know what they went through. That is part of them getting justice, is that we never forget that.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And there are times when what they went through, I think, is minimized by people who want to shift blame from the accused and the convicted to someone else because it is helpful for them to do that. That is not a comment on whether or not those accused are guilty or not. I just have a problem with twisting the facts in an attempt to help your case. And I feel like that happens.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So we're going to go through this. with all the gory details. We're going to tell you exactly what happened. If you don't want to know, skip the next episode. It won't be the end of the world. We're also at some point, like I said, we're going to have an expert come on and talk about this because I have questions about this that I don't understand. I've read the autopsies.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
There are things I don't get and I want someone to explain them to me. So next episode, it's going to be tough, but we will treat it as respectfully as we can and we will do this as clinically as we can, but we do think it is important to talk about what happened
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
to these boys we discussed a lot today i threw out a lot of questions for you guys i'm looking forward to your input if you have any knowledge you want to share with us if there's anything you want to correct let us know we've already corrected several things that people have pointed out to us sort of as we're going so we're always happy to do that you know i'm i want to know what happened here i want the facts we are not selling you a narrative we want to know what happened so if we're getting things wrong let us know even if it's small yes i will call you a nitpicker but nevertheless i'm
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I will correct the news. So shoot us an email. Prosecutors pod at Gmail dot com and prosecutors pod for all your social media. Join the gallery where this discussion is going hot and heavy. If you want to watch us record these episodes and comment in the chat, which we always enjoy, please do. Do join us on Patreon for as little as $3 a month. You can do that.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And if you don't want to be bothered with all that, or if you want to watch the recordings later, or if you just want to watch till the edited ad free episodes come out, you can get those early as well. Alice, do you have anything else you want to add?
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And I want to say thank you to all of you who've reached out and made positive comments about this series. I'm glad you're enjoying it. It's always a little nerve wracking when we spend this much time on a case. It's funny because I hear people say things like, oh, they're barely even gotten started. And I'm like, we're only nine episodes in.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And it's funny because we did nine episodes on Karen Reed. And oh, my Lord, that felt like a march through the desert. I mean, it was just... I mean, I hate to knock on episodes because they actually, I think, are pretty good. But for the doing of them, oh, it was terrible. And we're nine episodes into this, and I could talk about this until the end of time. So that probably shines through.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I'm still listening to trial stuff. I've already heard. I won't listen to it again. Make sure I get the details right or whatever. So yeah, I'm glad you guys are enjoying it. Alice, do you have time for a question?
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Okay. Let's see if we can find a good one. Thank you, guys. As we've said before, if you leave a five-star review on either the Prosecutors or the Prosecutors Legal Briefs, we will answer your question. One note, if you've left a question and we've never answered it, just check to make sure you left a five-star review and not a one-star review.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Because we have some glowing reviews with questions at the end that are absolutely one-star reviews. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say you didn't mean to do that. So you might want to check that. And usually I add that question anyway because I know you didn't mean to. But nevertheless, it'd be nice to get the five stars. I'll also say this.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Few of you have left four star reviews and questions. I appreciate the four stars, but it's not five stars. And this is five star review question time. So I also appreciate those of you who leave negative reviews with five stars and a question to gain the system. And I promise you, I've added your question to the hundreds we have. And I'm sure by episode 2000. We'll get to you.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Yeah. And it's interesting because the people, you know, I think to, I think to Richard Allen, right. And where the girls were killed in the Delphi case.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Let's see. Okay. Noelle says, I don't know. We actually have a crazy case. So I'm going to do two questions because I think these questions can be answered with the same answer, at least for me. So Noel asks, what's the craziest case you have prosecuted or been involved with and why? Are there any that, as listeners, we could look up and learn about?
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And then for JLaw300 says, have either of you been lead prosecutor on a case that received national attention? So I feel like those two questions go together. So I'll go ahead and ask those. Alice, do you want me to answer that first? Do you have one in your mind?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So I can talk about this now because it's completely dealt with and appeal waivers and everything. But so I do a lot of counterterrorism cases. Some of you guys know that. That's one of the things I do. And we had someone who set a bomb. at the Alabama AG's office. Set a bomb, bomb went off, everything. And that became like a really big deal.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And we ended up having a joint terrorism task force, people from the state, local police, FBI, all those folks. And I was prosecutor on that case. And that definitely made national news. And fascinating case. Awesome investigation. I've talked about some of the investigation before and sort of the weird things that happened in those few months where we were doing that just nonstop.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
But eventually found the guy and were able to really just build a case that was so airtight that he pled guilty. And we were very happy with the outcome. And I think, honestly, it was a just outcome because we didn't, even though he did that and it was a very serious crime, we didn't try and put him away for the rest of his life because of various aspects around that case.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And people talk about how open that area of the forest was, how, you know, there was a road not far by and there were a couple of houses nearby and, you know, there was a park and there had been people in the park and you think, wow, that is pretty exposed. Nothing compared to this. I mean, this area is incredibly exposed and it's just hard. It's hard to even wrap your head around it.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And that was a fascinating case. It was really interesting to see how the various different law enforcement partners worked together. So in the resources they had and how those different resources all came to bear to see how the FBI, there was behavioral analysis done. We had BAU stuff. We had profiles of this person because we didn't know who it was. It was a complete mystery. Totally disguised.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Had him on video. Wasn't helpful. So that was a really fascinating case and one that I was really happy with the outcome. Wasn't a crazy case. I mean, I guess. No, it was crazy.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You watch that beginning shot from Paradise Lost and you see the helicopter flying over and it's just you don't even realize it unless, you know, you don't even realize it. It's that little plot of trees right on this canal and interstate. I mean, it's wild. And this was a place that kids would play. It's not surprising. I mean, this is the forest for the kids in the neighborhood.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I remember that. I remember that well. And, you know, it's always...
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Yeah, I know. Well, that's always what's amazing is there were people.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So, you know, I just want to note that Alice does have a birthday coming up. So if everybody in the chat wants to say happy birthday to Alice.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You know, it's funny because used to be, Birthdays really meant something. Does it not mean anything at all? You turn 16, you could drive. In Alabama, you turn 19 and you were an adult. In 18, you couldn't do anything. Us in Utah, you had to be 19. When you turn 19, you could buy cigarettes. Now you've got to be 21.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You could buy cigarettes and you could open a bank account and all that sort of stuff. Then 21, obviously, the big one. You can drink. Then 25, you can rent a car. But really, that's it. Until retirement, there's 25. Downhill from 25.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I was looking at pictures. Well, so I sent this, I showed this to some of you guys. My wife found a video that she took of the very first time we ever recorded. And it was us recording the intro, the I'm Brent and I'm Alice. Right. I don't know how we actually got that down. And the thing I noticed was how dark my hair was.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It's really a terribly... amateur podcast we have. Think about it.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You know, when I was growing up, I lived literally in the middle of nowhere. So we had acres and acres of woods and we would play in the woods all the time. Now, you know, I take my kids back to where I live and I think, I don't want my kids going back there. That was why we all let me run around back there. But we did all the time.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I'd like to think the content is so great. It overcomes the amateur nature of everything else.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Exactly. Well, Alice, I hope you have a happy birthday. I hope you get to feeling better. You should try the healing waters of Mexico. Topo Chico.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Happy birthday to everybody. Whatever your birthday is.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I just thought that'd be weird, right? I mean, I want to live past my birthday. I don't want to die on my birthday. Any other day is fine. I want to die on Halloween. Putting that in the universe.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
We have not. All right, guys. Well, we saved the random stuff till the end so you can't complain. And I hope you enjoyed this because the next episode, not going to be happy. It's going to be dark. And I totally get it. And if some of you don't want to do it, like I said, we never do trigger warnings on this podcast because we know you're here for true crime and you get it.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I mean, I would just disappear into those woods for hours at a time. And No big deal. Kids would play in these places as well. Heather Cleat explained that from the age of nine to around 14, that she would play in the woods on both sides of the pipe and it served as a bridge and the kids would cross it. And she would go into the woods two or three times a week.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It's all going to be dark and bad. This is particularly dark. So we totally get it if you don't want to join. But if you do, we're going to dive into this and hopefully it'll get us closer to justice for these three boys. We will see you next week. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are the prosecutors.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
She would ride her bike to the pipe and then walk across, just like the boys likely did. She talked about some of the things in the forest. For instance, there were snapping turtles that lived in the creek and in sort of this bayou area. And she recalled being told by a friend not to touch one of the turtles because it would bite her. In the South, we have snapping turtles all over the place.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And this is one of the things you're told as a kid at a very early age. You see a snapping turtle, do not get near it. It will bite your finger off. It's a very distinct memory I have in my mind that it will literally bite your finger off. And I think it probably could. I mean, these are like,
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
prehistoric animals they're hard to even describe what they look like and they're frightening and they apparently did live in this area and as a matter of fact there was a little part of this that was called turtle hill probably because of the turtles that lived in the area. There was also apparently a pack of wild dogs.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Pack might be a little generous, but there were some wild dogs that lived near the truck wash side of the pipe. And years after the deaths of the boys, this would actually become important. Warner Spitz, who many of you have heard of, is sort of a famous coroner. He's the kind of person that tells you how people died. I don't know if he was a coroner or a medical examiner.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I don't know what pathologist, I don't know what his official title is. But he became intrigued by these dogs and actually suggested that the injuries to the boys, which we're going to talk about later, were actually caused by the dogs and not any activity of the murderers. Now, Ryan Clark, we've talked about before, he was Christopher Byer's older brother.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
He would say that he also played in the woods when he was eight or nine and he would go there every day. He also talked about these snapping turtles and said that they were in sort of the water, though he would swim in the water. So, you know, I guess they weren't too aggressive.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Devil's Den was a place in the Robin Hood woods, which I'm sure that name didn't influence anybody who talked about this case. And this was an area where Heather Cleit would say that she had seen the boys riding their bikes. And it's essentially the area where they are found.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Now, I know this geography can be a little confusing, but frankly, we're probably going into this in a little bit more detail than we should, because I struggle to remind you how small this area is. It's a little patch of woods with this canal on one side and this little creek that ran off the canal that flooded when it rained. And that's where the boys were found.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we discuss where the bodies were found and the results of the autopsies. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my put-together co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So this, of course, you know, has to, I'm sure this haunts the parents to this day. This is a place they told the kids not to go. And this is where their bodies are going to be found, whether they were murdered there or not, which was always the theory. Well, it wasn't always a theory of the police, but eventually everyone settled on this is where they were murdered.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And the bodies were found under the water in this creek we've talked about that sort of goes off from the 10-mile bayou, this diversion canal that runs along the area, the big body of water. There's this little creek. That creek was filled from recent rains, and if you've seen pictures of this, there are parts of it that have very steep sides to it, but then it sort of levels out at parts as well.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Their bodies are found under the water, and they were clearly put there in an effort to conceal them as long as possible. Now, how they were put there... It's a little weird. And I've read a lot of different takes on this. I've read the testimony on this. I am still not crystal clear on this.
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308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It seems as though they were essentially pressed down into the mud and sort of the suction of the mud at the bottom held them there, though it's often also said that they were put there with sticks. Now, I don't understand what that means. Maybe the sticks were used to press them down into the woods. They weren't wearing any clothes.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So I don't really know how the sticks would have held them there. And the finding the bodies is often described. And we talked about it as there's a police officer who sort of falls into the creek and he realizes he's on top of something. And he sort of lifts up with his leg. And when he does, he breaks that suction and the body just floats to the surface.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And that makes sense because at that point. You would expect the bodies to float to the surface because of the natural decomposition. So they're sort of stuck down in the mud well enough that that doesn't happen initially. And there are people out there who know more about this case than I could know about it if I read it for the next 10 years.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I would love somebody to sort of explain that a little bit more. If you understand it, the boy's hands were tied, wrist to ankle, wrist to ankle. It's possible that the stick was somehow wrapped around that. I don't know. I can't really figure that out. But nevertheless, that's where their bodies were. They were definitely down in the water like that.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
The police show up and they take her to Goulburn Hospital, where she is placed under psychiatric care. Because at this point, nobody even knows who she is.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So, when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Homes.com. We've done your homework. So, you know, she's made it back home because she stole a car. It's now August 31st. Mitchell, who didn't steal a car, he arrives home on that day, which is a Wednesday.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
He had taken a series of trains and eventually called an overnight train home from Michigan. So he had a little bit more of an adventure getting home. He shows up. He tells the police what he knows. He tells the police where his parents were heading. Ella is able to tell them the last place they were, which is this gentleman caves. So the local police are informed that we have these two people.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
You know, I got to say, and I've mentioned this before on the podcast. Heads Carolina, Tails California, that song. I have just deep inside of me this desire to just start driving. I'll drive by the Greyhound bus station every now and then, and I'm just like, I wonder if I just went in there and said, give me a ticket to a random place and just got on the bus and went.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
We don't know what's going on, but they're in your area and they're looking for Mark and Jacoba, but they did not find them. And in fact, the pair had already left and they had headed back over the Victorian border and into a town called Wangaratta. So in Wangaratta, they decide to do what everybody else in the family is doing. They're splitting up. I guess it'll make it harder to be tracked.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So Jacoba goes her way and Mark goes his. Jacoba jumps on a train. She's on public transportation and she's headed north towards a town called Yas. And later that night, a couple in Wangaratta will report a bizarre incident. So this is how they described it. They were tailgated by a man in a silver Pugio station wagon, which is the vehicle that the Trumps had been driving.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
When they pulled over, so they're being tailgated, so they decide they're going to pull over. They pull over. The driver gets out of the car and runs towards them like a madman before stopping in the middle of the road. He then just stares at them for what I assume must have felt like for forever before turning around and just walking into a nearby park, Meriwild Park.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And this is believed by everyone to be Mark Meriwild. The same evening, there are a series of break-ins in the area. It's never been confirmed, but many people attribute these break-ins to Mark Trump. And that is the situation that we're in at this point. Jacoba is heading north. Mark, his behavior has now reached a level that is so bizarre, no one can really classify it.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
If this happened in the United States, at least half these people would be dead.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Because we've seen cases like this where people do things like this, right? I mean, we've done several cases where mental illness is believed to play a part that end in murder or suspected murder or disappearances that everybody thinks is probably...
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
a murder but in this case and i mean they got plenty of murderers in australia there's some great murder cases out of australia but alice is right everybody is going out of their way to help these people who are really exhibiting some mental illness that might make a lot of people say you know what i don't know why this woman is wandering around town but i am not going to get involved that's not what happens here they're helping out and getting these people where they need to be
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
This was more attractive before I had kids, but even now, I mean, even, you know, sometimes, sometimes it's more attractive now, but just this desire to just strike off and into the distance just to see what comes and leave everything behind. I think everybody has that desire deep down inside of them somewhere.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And it's fascinating because whatever's affecting them, and we're obviously going to spend a good amount of time on theories on this case, but whatever's affecting them is not affecting them all equally. So Mitchell doesn't seem to have been affected at all. Ella is sometimes held out as not been really affected. But as we said, her behavior is very strange to me.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I think she definitely was under the influence of whatever this is and the whole stealing the car thing. But by the time she gets home, it seems like she is now out of it, too. Because her and Mitchell, they're talking to the media. There's no need for her to be hospitalized. No sign that she's under any kind of mental distress.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
To the extent, as Ella said, she's going to be charged with stealing that car later on. But, you know, Rihanna, she's still in that hospital. Mom goes to the hospital and whatever it is, she certainly doesn't break out of it as quickly as Ella did. She has to be moved to the same psychiatric hospital that her daughter is in as well.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I would just note, we find Jacoba on September 1st. What happened on September 2nd? Nobody knows. It's a complete black hole.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I remember when this happened, and the story was sort of developing, and you had this entire family that was missing. And it seemed like this was going to be something terrible and tragic, and who knows exactly what's going on here. And then all of a sudden, they find them all, right? And so they find Mark, and it's like, what in the world is going on?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And then you have this reaction, and it's just so strange. The next day, Mitchell and Ella, who are now sort of the face of the family, because they're the only ones acting rationally, They appear in front of the media and they thank the police for finding their father. At the time, they do not provide any details on what happened or why it happened.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And it's not clear, honestly, that they really have any idea. Well, the answer is to those questions. September 5th, the next day, 2016, we have a statement from Mark Trump. So Mark Trump is going to make the following statement. In recent days, my family has been through a difficult period. Very true. Understatement of the century.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
We will soon be reunited together, because remember, we've got a couple people in the hospital, we've got a couple people at the farm. It's unclear where he is and what's happening to him. I hope that we will begin to make sense of our ordeal and return to a normal life.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I am conscious of the burden these events have placed upon our extended family, friends, and the community resources devoted to our aid. Without reservation, I apologize for the hurt and concern caused by these events. So, so far, lots of nice words, no explanation.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
On behalf of our family, I express our deep gratitude to Victoria and New South Wales Police, as well as the healthcare professionals who have looked after our physical and mental well-being. More than anything, my family and I need time to recover and receive appropriate assistance, including mental health services. To this end, we request the media organizations respect our request for privacy.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
At no point in this statement did he address why the family had fled or what exactly happened over the five or so days that they were missing.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And we are returning to the great country of Australia. It's been a while since we've done Australian case. I think we've only done one, but I could be wrong about that. So looking forward to mispronouncing all the Australian names just drives the Australians crazy. I'm sorry, but Melbourne sounds so much better than Melbourne. Melbourne, it's like you're not finishing the word.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I just want to dwell on this point for a minute because something Alice said I think is really interesting. The fact that, I mean, this whole bizarre thing happens. It had to be terrifying, right? I mean, we've told the story and we've kind of been incredulous throughout. But just imagine what this must have been like for them. You know, they think they're fleeing for their lives.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They, you know, Mitchell, how did they view him? Was he a traitor? You know, was he betraying them? Did they beg him to stay? Did they urge him to go? Ella abandoned her sister.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Ella abandons her sister, who's in a catatonic state, who ends up in a psychiatric ward, who has to climb into the back of a stranger's vehicle. Imagine how badly that could have gone, right? I mean, she literally gets in a van. She literally gets in a white van. Panel van. and survives, right? But yeah, I mean, all this stuff, the terror, the recriminations, the blame.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I mean, you would think, why did you get us into this? All this other stuff. It seems like it just all went away. You know, you would expect it's now been, like I said, I can't believe it's been this long since 2016, but now it's been nine years and it just seems like nothing really changed. They just all sort of went about their lives.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They just accepted whatever happened and moved on without question.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
The owner of the Odyssey, by the way, did tell the police they did not want to pursue it. Because they heard the story and they were like, don't want to move further with this.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
We will. We will. We'll bring so many children. But this is a case that is famous in Australia. It's famous. I remember when it happened. So it certainly made news over here. But it's one I think you guys are going to enjoy. It is the story of the Trump family. This is the disappearance. You know, we love doing these disappearances of entire families because it's just bizarre that it can happen.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But this one has a twist on it that makes it even stranger. From the outside looking in, the Trump family were a successful, close-knit bunch.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
mark and jacoba trump that had built a successful earth moving company and a red current farm which i hear are a big deal in asia we don't really have red currents here i feel like we have black or currents depending on how you pronounce it for current but that could be wrong are you a red current fan my i think they're like medicinal properties in the asian culture so my mom brings them by the like bagfuls when she visits me
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
so unusual that ordinarily this would be something i'd put right there with ergot poisoning i would say that's silly well the chances of it being that are so low this is one of those where occam's razor produces a very unusual theory this is like sherlock holmes in the whole once you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable must be the truth
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And this is what people think. It's called the madness of two, but it can be sort of a shared delusion that any group of incredibly tight-knit people can share. And it's the presence of a similar delusion amongst them. And it's very difficult if you're a doctor looking at it to even determine who it was who was delusional first because they share it so intensely.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
There have been a few famous examples of this in true crime. There's another case we should do at some point.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
and that happened in england we had a couple women who were very clearly suffering from this and did something along these lines and the thing is we have no idea why this happened you know we can't point to the triggering event and the fact that the family has remained so quiet and so just zipped up about this you know and i'm gonna say this and this the biggest people who disagree with me on this but i'm just gonna sound a little callous too but that's fine
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I feel like the family actually owes some explanation of what happened. I mean, this became a nationwide story in Australia, a worldwide story. A lot of resources were expended for them. A lot of crimes were committed in their name and by them. I kind of feel like they owe the world an explanation. They have never given that explanation. So it's impossible to say exactly why this happened.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And the thing is, while we can't tell you who it stems from, I can tell you who started it. It was Mark. I have no question in my mind about that. And I have more to say about that in a second. But you have Mark and Jacoba who are both demonstrating this paranoia. We know that they were paranoid in the weeks leading up to what happened. They're showing these signs of paranoia.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They have this fear that someone's after them. And as this mental stress is building and they are getting more and more concerned and more and more frightening for their children, it seems as though their children were wrapped up in this as well.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Now, the thing is, it is very difficult for any of us sitting around here to understand how this could happen, particularly how this could happen to the girls, right? And seriously, in the case of Rihanna, Ella was affected as well. But it's hard for us to imagine that. But you really have to put yourself in a totally different situation than you are in.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And, you know, it's easy to imagine how this would happen with little kids. Right. So, you know, if I go downstairs right now and wake my kids up and say, kids, we got to get out of here. There's a danger, you know. there's a dragon in the basement and it's going to come up and eat us.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
If I said that to my kids, they would believe me and they would freak out and they would go wherever I said to go to get away from the dragon.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Yeah. Well, look, they had a whole farm of them. And they lived in a farming community, very connected to the earth. They were very successful. And in fact, they had three children, three adult children, Rihanna, 29, Mitchell, 25, and Ella, 22, who still lived on the farm and worked alongside their parents. And they worked seven days a week at this farm. They were very successful. Beautiful home.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I want to make some assumptions about this family that I don't know to be true, but I think fit with what we're seeing here. I bet this is a very conservative group of people who are much closer to each other than most of us are with our families. Remember, we have, you know, a 29 year old, a 22 year old, I think a 24 year old. who are all still living and working together.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They spent their entire lives on this farm. I have a feeling that Mark is very much the head of this household and that his kids and his wife have always looked to him as the person who knows what to do. You know, I imagine him, I've never seen this show, but I imagine him as like the John Dutton of this group, right? Like from Yellowstone. He is the patriarch, right? And you listen to him.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And when he says there's a problem, you believe it. And I think he starts having this paranoia and his wife is very easily taken in to it. And now you have both people who are convinced that this is going on. And then you have the two young ladies who are also living on that farm who are also wrapped into it. And the one person who isn't is the other male in the group.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
The other sort of, who you'd imagine, if it is sort of a conservative close-knit family, is probably more independent than the two girls. He is the only one who seems to be able to step back from this and say, I don't know what's going on with y'all, but I'm going to go along just to make sure you're okay.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I think this case is important. I mean, it's a fascinating case, and it's a wild case, and it's one of those where you can kind of have a little bit of fun with it because nobody gets hurt, nobody dies. They don't seem to have had really even any, other than embarrassment, any sort of long-term effect of this. They sort of just went back to their lives.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But I think it is important for those of us in true crime because... Imagine if something had happened. Imagine if they had never been found, or if they had been murdered, or you just found their van and they're all dead around it, right? What would people do? The assumption would be something happened, you know, some great conspiracy or some violence must have happened.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And not just this could have been mental illness. And we have seen this in so many of the cases we've looked at from the very first one we looked at. Elisa Lam died. To the Jameson family, who's a similar case, right? They have sort of this mental illness. They pack up their truck. They drive off into the mountains. Their bodies are found in the mountains a few months later.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And everyone just assumes there must have been some sort of violence here. Like they wouldn't have just gone up there to die. But if these people had gone to a different place, if they had driven 500 miles west instead of north, they had gone off into the outback. They probably would have died. They would have ran out of gas in the middle of the outback and they would have died.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They had horses. I believe it was Rihanna was into jumping, like hunter jumping. So they had like a whole jumping course. They had a bunch of horses. Very successful people. The kids, even though they're working on the farm, they also had these side businesses that they're doing. So just basically seems like they have this perfect place.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And you would have seen something like that happen. And I think it's always important when you have what appear to be hallmarks of mental illness to consider that and consider it seriously. Ray Rivera, a case we covered very early on of a man who unfortunately had a serious mental break and ends up jumping off a building.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And you have people to this day who think he was dropped out of a helicopter or he was hit by a car and then dropped through the roof of this building. And then somebody went down to the roof because he fell from very high up and then through a lower roof and put his cell phone next to the hole.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I mean, people actually believe that's what happened when, in fact, the simplest answer is the scariest answer. Far more frightening, frankly, than a killer that in his own mind, his mind became the enemy. And that's what caused it to happen. And you see that with this family. This was purely within their own minds. There was no monster.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
It was just their own minds betraying them and sending them on this trip.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But then, in 2016, Mark and Jacoba, I believe Kobe was her nickname, began to demonstrate some paranoid behavior. And they became convinced that someone was after them. Someone was stalking them. They wanted to steal all their money, maybe even kill them. And they were terrified. And this behavior peaked immediately.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
It's nice to see a case where somebody ran into the right person instead of the wrong person. Because it seems like they so often run into the wrong person. And this time, the right person found them. Well, look, we'd love to hear your thoughts on this case. Shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com and prosecutorspod for all your social media. People in the gallery will be discussing this.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Join us there on Facebook. Let us know what you think. If you would like to watch us record these episodes, you can join Patreon. Even if you don't want to watch us record them, you can still get them early and ad-free for as little as $3 a month. Well, Alice, do you have time to answer any questions tonight?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
There you go. Exactly. Alice is going to do the entire case next time. So y'all make sure you... Log on.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Okay. Well, we're going to let Alice get back to her children, her lovely children, nurse them back to health. But we will be back next week with a new case. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are The Prosser.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
In August 2016, when the family abruptly left on a cash-only, tech-free road trip. Now, this road trip, which began at their home in Sylvan and ended in a place that I'm certainly going to mispronounce, Wangaratta. I think Wangaratta sounds very Australian, but the Australians can correct me on that.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
mean why not let's just go we'll just do a marathon i brought water i have an energy bar i think we can do it okay well let's go okay let's go episode one let's go episode one anyways okay let's all right you ready for serious for serious you're the one Never.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
it spanned five days and nearly a thousand miles along the way the family would split up different people leaving at different times all of them doing things that seemed to defy sense and then they eventually reappeared one by one And even now, nearly nine years later, the general public is no closer to understanding what exactly happened to the Trump family than they were when this occurred.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
This is a wild ride, and I'm looking forward to talking it through with you guys and trying to figure out what exactly was going on with this family.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And if this feels like it starts abruptly, it's because it does. There's no real run up to this. If you look at the stories, look at the interviews, there's just a sort of vague notion that around this time, the parents became very paranoid, like we said. But there's no events. So there's no like three days before there was a strange car in the driveway or someone broke into the house.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
It's literally just events. These people decide to do this. And Mitchell is the only person in this entire story who is just completely sane. And he's like, I don't know about this, guys. This seems really strange. But he was concerned about the rest of his family.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so he would later say, I just felt like I needed to go with them and see where they were going because they wouldn't tell me where they were going. But he wasn't going to leave his cell phone. He was taking his cell phone with him. It's a little unclear how the parents discovered that he had it. But when they found it, they lost their minds.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so literally his dad takes his phone and throws it out the window, which is just if Mitchell had any doubts that something had broken in the family, it was confirmed for him at that point.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But let's be clear here. Mitchell, you know, Mitchell jumps on a train and heads back home, right? The sisters abandoned this trip, but they are not in their right minds. Because what do they do when they decide to abandon this trip? They steal a car. So they just steal a car. They then drive the car to a nearby town called Goulburn. And they do whatever. What do you do when you steal a car?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
What's the first thing you do? You call the police. So they actually, you know, they drive their stolen car, I guess, to a payphone. And they call the police and say, hey, our parents are missing. Now, at this point. There's some sort of further falling out with the girls because they decide to part ways at this point.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They're at a gas station, probably where they made the call, and they decide they're going to go their separate ways.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I think this goes to what is a disturbed mental state for these two girls, these two women as well. And I do want to note, you know, we're talking about Australia. Those of us who are not in Australia, we sort of think of Australia as Sydney and I guess Melbourne. Yeah. And then the outback. Right.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
It's true. You've had an effect on me.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So in the average American's minds, there are a couple of cities in Australia and then just vast desert wilderness that goes on to the sea. Right. Well, nothing we're talking about happens in the outback. This is all in the to whatever extent Australia is a built up country. Right. This is all in it. So they're not like out in the middle of nowhere.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They're near towns and cities the whole time, but you have this situation where the two girls are going to split up, but it's number one. Why are they splitting up? It'd be the first question. Number two is, they're just abandoning each other, if you think about it. They're in the middle of nowhere. They don't know where they are. Ella takes the car.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So it's not even like they split up, ditch the car, and both take a bus or something like that. Ella takes the car and just leaves her sister, Rihanna, in this...
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
unfamiliar town with no cell phone no credit cards nothing she just leaves her there and starts driving and apparently I think Ella is the one with the horses apparently she was concerned about her horses so she wants to go feed her horses now who knows what she planned on doing after that but she takes off in the car Rihanna, now left behind, I guess does what you do in this situation.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
You know, she just talked to the police. It seems like the obvious thing to do would be to call the police and say, oh, by the way, when I reported my parents missing, they also abandoned me, so I'm in the middle of nowhere. Help me. She doesn't do that. She's been very successful in breaking into a car, so she breaks into another car.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, a family goes on a road trip and then loses their ever-loving minds. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my wandering co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
She breaks into a utility van, and she climbs into the back of the utility van in this town, closes the door. She doesn't steal the car. She just breaks into the back of it.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
The owner, he comes along, he gets in his utility van, fires her up, starts driving. All of a sudden, he starts feeling kicks to his seat during the drive, which just imagine. potentially in Australia, because who knows what sort of fatal, yeah, poisonous slash vicious animal could be in the back of your car. But he looks back and he sees Rihanna in the back of his vehicle.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And what he described as a catatonic state. He tried to talk to her. She could barely talk at all. And when she did talk, she said she did not know her name. didn't know where she was, didn't know how she ended up in the van. That is her mindset at this time.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And remember, Rihanna is the oldest of the kids. She's 29. So, you know, Ella's 22. And she's like, sorry, I got to go get my horses. And so she does. She leaves her. And who knows what her mental state was. So the driver, who would say to the press that he had quite a shock when he saw her in the back of the car, called the police.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
While he's there, he actually whispers to the photographer, take each of their pictures today. I don't think they're all coming back.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student-to-teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
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The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
No, it's the feminine version of frio.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
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The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
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The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
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The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
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The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
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The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash prosecutors today. That's rocketmoney.com slash prosecutors. rocketmoney.com slash prosecutors. And yeah, I mean, this is some really tough stuff. Like I don't claim to be in shape at all, but you gotta be in good shape to be able to do this. 13,500 feet.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Like I said, I was skiing. We were at 12,000 feet and, you know, walking up the stairs, I would have to like take a break and rest. Right. Because the air is just thinner, you know, and, and these were experienced people, uh,
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
But as we noted, the doctor is already getting sick and altitude sickness is one of those things that can strike even experienced people, even people who've done this before, even people who are used to it. It can just happen. You know, who knows why you were just a little bit off when you started and your body never quite catches up.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And a lot of times the altitude sickness, particularly if it's bad. The only way to recover is to go down. You can't. It's not like, well, if I stay here long enough, my body will catch up. You just have to go down, and that's really the only thing you can do. And they already have the doctor who's sick, and they're going up and down. I mean, just imagine how much work they're doing.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They're lugging this stuff up 2,000 feet and then coming back down and doing it again, right? This is tough. And by January 27th, it's starting to take its toll. So January 27th, six days later, Defoe and Eubank have decided to head back down the mountain due to altitude sickness. They've got altitude sickness. They're not going to get over it. They have to leave.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Remember, Defoe's the leader of the group. He's out. He's taken off. Eubank. Eubank's the doctor. He was feeling bad in the beginning. He's out. Which means medical knowledge to look at the other people and determine what they're suffering from, what their condition is, gone. It's not just them. Sheldon. He'd returned back to base camp the previous day. Remember, he's the young guy.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
He's the college student at Brigham Young. He's the interpreter. So he's the guy who can speak most fluently with God. The guy speaks some English, but he speaks a lot better Spanish. So you've lost the young guy who you could have relied on to carry stuff. I mean, he's young, he's fit. I mean, these other guys are in their 50s.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
You've lost the leader of the group who put the whole thing together and should be the tie that binds. And you've lost the doctor. They're already gone. But the rest of the group is going to try and make it. So they're going up to camp two. So remember, they got base camp, which is higher than where I was skiing. You know, people, a lot of people go to base camp at Everest and that's their trip.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Like just getting to base camp is an accomplishment. So they're going to head up to camp two. It's nearly 18,000 feet deep. It took seven hours to get there, and the group is down to five of its original members. Right now we have Cooper, Johnson, Petroski, McMillan, and Zeller. So after the trek to Camp 2, Cooper made the following comment in his diary.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Bill Zeller is the real man behind the work. He is the police officer I talked about who is the strong guy who's carrying stuff. He lugged 80 pounds up to camp one. Then after getting back, he made the water haul. And here I am in the sack. I guess we all do our share of work, but some more than others.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Now he's not doing a lot, but that doesn't mean he's not critical of Johnson, our only woman in the group. He writes, Johnson was little help. She is a real loner and appears to be for only one thing, to get herself to the summit at the expense of everyone or on everyone's back.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So once again, the dynamic of this group, fractured, not friendly, not all in it together, not feeling like we're all pulling together. I mean, even the guide was saying he felt like he was in it for himself. And that's going to become more evident as we continue on this expedition.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably the most snow we've had here in, well, certainly in decades. Yeah. I've never seen snow here. Yeah, certainly in decades. I've lived here off and on. Many years. Many years and never seen snow. We told the kids.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And I just want to point out, the guide is the one taking Petroski back. So the one guy who's done this before, the one guy who knows the mountain, he's now gone too. The guy that you would think everybody would look to, right? I mean, you've lost your leader, but maybe just the experience would be enough that he is sort of the de facto leader.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
If he says do it, we're going to do it because he knows what he's doing. He's gone too. So you got these four jokers from America doing something they've never done before in a situation that is really dangerous, trying to make the summit of this mountain.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Enjoy it because you probably won't see it again. But- This is appropriate weather for the case we are talking about today. The Aconcagua mystery. We love mysteries. We love mountains. We love mysteries that happen on mountains. And this one has it all. But... Unlike the other two, you know, we talked about two mountain mysteries, Dyatlov Pass and the Khyber Dabin incident.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And look, if there's one thing we've learned from Dyatlov Pass, it's don't camp on the side of a mountain, right? You know, you've got this situation where the goal is you have Camp 3. the goal is to get from there to the summit. That's what you're trying to do.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And the smart thing, just like when the group and the outlaw pass, you know, they were trying to get from where they had stored all their stuff to the pass now named for the group. The storm hit and rather, and this is what the one survivor said about why did they camp on the side of that mountain? Because Dyatlov didn't want to lose altitude. You know, they'd gained that altitude.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It had been tough to gain it. So he didn't want to lose it. So he camped there. And whether you think it's an avalanche or a Yeti or a bomb or whatever, that decision is what led to their deaths. The smarter thing, as difficult as it is, and the thing that nobody ever wants to do, would have been to go back down and try again the next day. And that's what they should have done here.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They should have gone back down, spent the night at Camp 3, and then try the summit the next day. Instead, they do this middle ground where they're trying to dig a cave into the side of the mountain. It provides almost no actual shelter. So think about what they're going through. They're at a higher altitude, so they're getting less oxygen.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
You know, they're burning all this energy that they didn't necessarily have trying to keep themselves warm. They're not getting any rest. Cooper's covered in snow. Like the whole thing is a mess, right? But they're going to try and continue on. So the next morning is January 31st, 1973.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And it's morning and Cooper, you know, you can tell from what he was writing in his diary, he was getting increasingly unhappy about this whole thing. He's going to call it. Now, Cooper, you know, it's interesting that he's the one who says, I am done with this. Because Cooper was described by his friends as a bit of a cowboy. He worked for NASA.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
He was one of ground control for all the lunar landings, one of the main guys. People described him as more like an astronaut than a ground control guy because he was just a bold guy, right? He was the kind of guy that climbs mountains. But he is admitting defeat and saying, I'm getting out of here, right? And he decides he's going to go back down to the mountain, back to Camp 3.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It's about two hours back to Camp 3, and he's like, okay, guys, I'm heading back. None of the remaining members, they don't have any issue with him going, but they also are going to let him go alone. You know, and I think this goes back to the group dynamic, right? A situation, a dangerous mountain, a group of people, they're supposed to all be in this together.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They got a guy who obviously is suffering. He wants to head back down the mountain. And the other three, rather than say, you know what, we'll go with you. Or one of them saying, you know what, I'll go with you and make sure you make it. Or like, all right. See you later. Good luck making it back down the mountain. It's only two hours. I'm sure you'll be fine. That's their position.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And so they send this guy down by himself. So he heads back down by himself. Now the group is down to three members, Zeller, McMillan, and Johnson. So they're trying to make their way up the Polish glacier. They're trying to reach the summit. But by the time they get to a little ridge that is sort of your midpoint, once you get there, you know, you can head right up to the summit.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And I don't think in either one of those, well, I guess Dyatlov Pass, there may be theories about murder, depending on what your theory is. Maybe you think one of the group went crazy. Maybe you think they were killed by the Mansi. Maybe you think they were killed by the Soviets. I don't think any of those are the mainstream theory, though. I could be wrong.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
By the time they get there, once again, it has been such a difficult trip that night has fallen. The snow at this point is waist deep. So they've been taking turns, one person walking in front and sort of cutting a path through the snow and then falling back to the back. And the next person has to cut the path through the snow because it's so grueling to try and do this.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And so resting at this point is not really an option. They've been taking these turns, but it's just they can see it. It's right there. The summit is right there and they want to make it to the top.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And obviously, another thing to remember here is the possible presence of unreliable narrators. Because we have four people left in this group trying to make it to the top. Two of them are never going to come home. The other two are going to make it. And we're hearing from those two what happened. So remember that as we move forward.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
But so, you know, back to the group dynamic and how they're really taking care of each other. They're doing all this thing. They're walking up the snow. And, you know, they see the summit. They're like, okay, we really need to go. We can make it. And the two guys turn around and Janet Johnson's gone. They have no idea where she went. They just know they can't see her.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They have somehow lost her as they are making their way up this mountain. So according to them, they call out to her like, hey, where are you? But they get no response. So they start looking for her to see if they can find her. And they find her axe. They don't find her. So...
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They're going to take this, I guess, as a good sign because it means she's probably nearby, though it's obviously not good that she doesn't have her axe anymore. They start calling out to her again, and they hear a voice that says, My name's Janet Johnson. So they go about 100 feet off the trail, and there she is laying in the snow.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Macmillan would say that when they got to her, she said, Don't make me suffer. Just let me lay here and die, which... Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And then in the other case, I don't think anybody thinks it was murder. But this case, this case is one that a lot of people think might just be a case of murder on the summit of a mountain.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And I got to say, you know, this case is interesting, too, because there's all sorts of questions about the effect. The mountain is a character in this case. I feel like in a way that it wasn't so much. I mean, obviously, in Dyatlov Pass, the elements were very much part of that case and could have been responsible for that case.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
In the Khmer Dabin case, that was like a relatively, it wasn't even that high. It wasn't a tall mountain. So you really didn't feel like that was what was going on. In this case, very much. The mountain is part of it. Even if it's a murder, the mountain is part of it. And I was in Colorado. We took the kids skiing. And there it's like 12,000 feet.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So meanwhile, he's doing whatever he's doing on the side of the mountain. Zeller and Johnson are making their way down the glacier. And Zeller says that he also began hallucinating. Remember, not a lot of oxygen. Hallucinations are a symptom of severe altitude sickness, hypoxia. Your brain is dying and you're starting to see things, which...
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
which is pretty high, not as high as these folks are going to be. You know, the altitude, it gets to you and it can really affect you. We're going to see that in this case. And it really I think one of two things happened here, either the mountain and the various challenges these people faced killed them or something happened on that mountaintop.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
You think about what was happening to Janet Johnson and why was she saying some of the things she was saying? It may be because she was also, and in fact, almost certainly was in the throes of this same problem. And he would later report seeing construction trucks working near the summit.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So he's like in his mind, there are, you know, bulldozers and excavators and dump trucks rolling around the top of this mountain, I guess, building a road or something. He's seeing that and he's hearing voices, uh,
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
that are calling out to him and he's hearing rescuers who were not there so he clearly is not in a great place and he's the one responsible for taking janet johnson down this glacier and as he and johnson are making their way down the glacier they also take a fall they go tumbling down and it results in him breaking his glasses and cutting his face some.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I think he says the same thing happens to Janet. Once again, could be exactly what happened here, but is something, if you were thinking there's foul play here, that is convenient to explain the kind of things you might see in some sort of altercation. You have cuts to your face. Your glasses are broken. How'd that happen? Oh, your buddy's got a black eye. How did all this happen?
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Well, we fell down the mountain. And when we fell down the mountain, this happened. and being mountaineers, they would know these are fairly common injuries. So it is certainly possible, if not likely, that that's exactly what happened, is they both fell down the mountain and this happened.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
But given what we're facing, you have to keep in the back of your mind that this is also very convenient for what we are going to see as they continue to progress down. So he also says that when they fail... You know, he had been tied to Janet. They were tied together. When they fail, they became untethered. So this tie broke. So he gets up. They fall all the way down this mountain.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
He gets up to look for Janet. Where did she go? Can't find her, but he does see John Cooper's body. According to Zeller, he went over to him, he checked him, and he was very dead and apparently frozen solid. Now, he says he didn't see any cuts on his skin or any tears in his clothing, so he assumed this wasn't a fall. He just died of exhaustion and hypothermia.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Essentially, when they sent him down there by himself, whether they meant to or not, they sent him to his death. He was already suffering from hypoxia, and he just couldn't make it. I hate to keep comparing this to Dyatlov, but I think there's a lot of similarities. Recall, three of the group members in that case, they made it all the way down the mountain. They built a fire there.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Three of them tried to go back. They tried to go back up to the tent, and none of them made it. Each one sort of further and further up the mountain fell and died from exhaustion. Hypothermia, exactly what happened here. He's trying to make it back down, but he can't make it, and he dies of hypothermia. At least that's what Zeller believed. So he finds Johnson. He finally finds her.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
This may be a case that you guys are not familiar with. It is incredibly famous in Argentina where it takes place. It's incredibly famous amongst certain mountaineers and people who love to climb mountains and love to challenge themselves. It's an old case. It's back in the 1970s, but it's one of those that came back
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And he realizes there are only, and this is his description of the distance, three or four city blocks from camp. He can actually see the tents. So he thinks, okay. We're right there. And you know, if there's something that's worked out great so far, it's splitting up. Splitting up is exactly what we should do.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So he decides rather than, I don't know, tie himself back up to Janet, get her up on her feet. She's fine. She's fine here. I just found my friend dead who I sent down here alone. He died of exhaustion and hypothermia, but she looks good. So I'm just going to leave her here. He decides just to leave her there and he's going to go on down to camp. He'll set up the tent and she'll just follow along.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Once she's back up on her feet and doing better, she's going to come on down and everything will be fine. This is his plan. Now, granted, once again, He's not exactly thinking clearly. None of them are. And I don't want to be too hard on him because it's very easy sitting here, you know, at sea level to say that was a really bad plan. But that was his plan.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And look, I don't know if any of y'all have ever climbed a mountain. I certainly have not. So I am not speaking from experience. But there is someone in the in the chat just said savage and savage is a great word. There is sort of a savage morality about mountain climbing.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
into sort of popular culture and the popular mind because of a New York Times article that was published shortly after a camera from this was found, many, many years after this happened. A camera was found on a glacier on Aconcagua and the film was pristine and they were able to develop the photos and the New York Times wrote an incredible article about it. We're gonna link to that article.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And they talk about this sometimes in Everest, that people climb this mountain, you reach a point on Everest where if something happens to you, you are going to die and no one can help you. And if they try to help you, they're going to die too. And it leads to these very callous things. The stories you'll hear about somebody who was on the trail. Because this trail, everybody takes it.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And so you pass dead bodies on the way. In fact, dead bodies become markers. Once you reach that dead body, there was one called Green Boots that was very famous. You reach Green Boots, take a right at Green Boots, right? And there are stories of like...
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
People dying on the side of this trail and these mountain climbers are just passing them heading up to the summit because they just have to keep going, you know, and and just sort of the cruelty of that that you're just like, well, that's too bad for that person heading on up to the summit so I can take my selfie. Right. Because they can't do anything. They can't actually help them.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And this is a situation where, you know, I wonder what's going on here. Is this just part of that sort of savage morality? Just this code that everybody knows there is a point where I can't save you or if I try and save you, I'm only going to lose my own life. So these guys, when they leave, they are leaving her to die. If she's not dead already, they're leaving her to die. They have to know that.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They're not going to get down to base camp and she's going to be there drinking tea. When they decide to head down... She is dead. They are deciding she's dead. Now, they may think she's already dead. You know, they've already made some decisions, which I think partially could be their minds are clouded, but also could have been just pure physical exhaustion.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It's easy, once again, to criticize them for literally getting to camp. She's not there and they decide to go to sleep. But I think this probably was arguably at least, you know, defend them too much, but arguably just they are so exhausted. They could not go back up, even if it was only a couple of city blocks, which is what he says. They could not go back up to get her.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They were physically unable. And if they had tried to do that, they would have died. But this feels very, very callous. Everything they've done really for the past couple of days.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
We relied heavily on that article. It is wonderfully done. One of those long form pieces of journalism. You don't see that often.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And look, I feel like I've been making excuses for these guys up to this point. At this point, I'm going to stop because I get it. They weren't the most close-knit group of people. But...
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I don't know how many of you guys have ever been in an experience where you're thrown into something with people you don't know and sort of almost like a foxhole type experience where you spend every waking moment with people working towards a goal. Usually, Even if you start off, you know, like the movie, right? You start off as disparate people from different places who have nothing in common.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
anymore so check it out read it you will enjoy it that's probably enough wind up let's get into the story so as i said we're going to mount acancagua argentina and acancagua is a famed mountain located in the southern andes mountains in west central argentina i've never been to argentina alice have you been to argentina
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
But this scrappy group of misfits joined together. It's like Goonies or something, right? Like, usually you see that. Some camaraderie. I mean, think of everything they've done over these last week or so. All they've overcome. All the work they've done together. You would have thought they would have...
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
bonded a little bit cooper was part of the group right i mean he he was at least better known two of them janet but here they're not like we got to get up there they're up there you know we've got to do something what what do you need i'll draw you a map i'll do whatever i can like get get me somewhere get me a map of the mountain i will point out to you exactly where we were you know so you can get up there with helicopters or whatever there's none of that it's almost like
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
you know, I'm reminded of the Robert one case where the three guys, they get into the room and they just shut down. Right. And, and it feels like that's happening here. Like these people are just like, yeah, sorry. I don't know. I don't know. Altitude, man. It's a, it's rough. And that's what it feels like. Right.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It just feels like none of these people were that interested in, in really helping to figure out what happened here on the slim chance slim, though it may be, that Janet is still alive somewhere up on that mountain.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And the next day, February 11th, they will leave and they will return to America. And, you know, two of their companions will remain on that mountain. And it's interesting what Alice said. If you don't give any help, you know, who knows? Maybe the bodies will just never even be found. She's going to leave them on the mountainside. But, as we will discuss next week. the bodies will be found.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And right now you may be thinking, well, okay, yeah, there's some questionable decisions here. I can see how, you know, maybe the things they did, sending him down alone, not going back for her, you know, that contributes to her death. And is that somehow some sort of some murder? And maybe that's what we're getting at. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. When those bodies are found,
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
The condition they are found in is going to raise far more serious questions than just did they make mistakes? Were they callous in how they treated these two people? Things are going to be found that make the authorities highly suspicious. that something violent happened on that mountainside.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I would love to go to Argentina. If anybody out there is listening from Argentina, you want to host us, let us know. I would love to go to Argentina. I've been to South America, but only Peru and Bolivia. And I would love to go to Argentina and Brazil and Chile and various other places. But enough of that.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
We're going to talk about that and more next week when we return to Mount Aconcagua for this mystery that I'm going to go on a limb and say most of you have not heard of, but it's just intriguing. There's something about it that is so powerful
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
primal and basic you know just the most the purest sort of animal sense of being human when you're on that mountain you know morality and laws are suspended and things start to happen that maybe you don't talk about when you get back down to base camp Well, we'd love to hear your thoughts at this point. Shoot us an email at prosecutorspod at gmail.com at prosecutorspod for all your social media.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
We're on Instagram. We're on Facebook in the gallery. We're on X slash Twitter. And I guess we're still on TikTok. We were off TikTok for about 12 hours, but now I guess we're back. So make sure you check all that out and you can send us a message there. If you have a case you want us to cover, this one as always. pretty much all of them these days, was recommended by one of you.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Shoot us an email at prosecutorspod. That is the best way to do it. I let y'all send DMs and Facebook messages and everything else, and those tend to get lost. If you send me an email, it will be added to the list, and we may cover it eventually. We will cover it eventually if we do this long enough, but we got a lot. We got a long list at this point.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Alice, do you have time for a question, or do you need to head out?
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Okay. Sorry. We're at that early stage, guys, where the babies are unpredictable.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Yeah. So we talked too much. So we'll do two questions next week to make up for it. Hear him. I do hear him. I do hear him. See, that's special, though. Somebody was just saying they were listening to an old episode and they could hear Brittany crying. So this is just a time capsule of your life. All right. There you go. Alice is going to go take care of her baby.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
We will be back next week with the conclusion of this mystery. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are the prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, two experienced mountain climbers die on an expedition up Aconcagua. Did the mountain kill them, or was it murder? See how I nailed that mountain name? Aconcagua.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So this is actually the highest point in the Western Hemisphere with its summit at 22,831 feet above sea level. So this is about... 6,000 meters, over 6,000 meters. For those of you in other countries, I guess that's what it is. I'm making that up. It's also one of the most popular mountains in South America with around 3,500 people attempting to summit it each year.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
You killed it, Alice. You killed it.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I guess I should go live. Yeah, sure.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And this is because despite its altitude, it's actually considered one of the easier mountains to summit. Many use it as sort of a warmup. It's a good training mountain for some of the more difficult mountains at similar altitudes like Mount Denali, even Mount Everest. but not all routes up Aconcagua are a walk in the park. So there are easy ways to go up, and this is true of a lot of mountains.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
For instance, Everest, I don't know if there's any easy way, but the way people go up, they go up one face of Everest, and that's the way they all go. And if you've seen photographs of expeditions to Everest, you'll see long lines of people because that's where they all are. There's another face that people have attempted to summit, much more difficult. It has been summited before, but very rarely.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And that's similar here. So there's an exception that is a difficult climb. It's the kind of climb, if you want to challenge yourself, you don't want to warm up, you want to challenge yourself, you'll take. It's called the Polish Glacier Route. It is far more difficult. It requires considerable technical climbing skills to successfully complete.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And it cuts straight up the east side of the mountain. It requires ice climbing skills to tackle. It's got snow and ice slopes. They can be up to 70 degrees, not in temperature. It's very cold up there. You know, you're using your crampons and using ropes and using your ice axe. And it's actually really difficult.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And the weather is incredibly unpredictable and can be severe and can change on a dime. So if you're taking this path, you better hope that you get a good group that trust each other, knows each other and people with a lot of experience. But. or maybe because of its difficulty. That is the route eight Americans were determined to take in 1973.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
This expedition would be led by Carmi Defoe, and it would attempt to be the fifth, only the fifth expedition to top Aconcagua via the Polish route. It's called the Polish route because the first people to do it were, say it with me, Russian. No, I'm just kidding. They were Polish.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Unfortunately. After a long and grueling climb, the group would never reach the summit. Not only that, but two of the people who went up would not come down. 35-year-old John Cooper and 36-year-old Janet Johnson. But even though it's been 50 years since these two experienced mountainers died on this mountain, how they died is still not clear. Was it the result of some sort of accident or
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
on the mountain, or were they the victims of foul play? Even today, that mystery persists, but we are going to solve it.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And we are the prosecutors. today on The Prosecutors. Two experienced mountain climbers die on an expedition up Aconcagua. Did the mountain kill them? Or was it murder? Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my muy frija co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And I think when the expedition starts off, it has a lot going for it. You've got all of these men who were members of the same climbing club. As Alice said, they are a group that has all the skills you need. You have an interpreter, you have a doctor, you know, you have experienced climbers. You have some other people whose job is going to be to carry stuff. Cause that's important.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
One of the people going up as a police officer and he was, he was kind of the strong man of the group and he would carry a lot of their gear and And this is a really good group and you would think they would have a really good chance of making it to the top. Mountaineering is one of those things where you really, it's hard to do it alone.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I mean, people do it and people summit mountains alone all the time. Those people tend to be the very best. If you're somebody who just likes to climb mountains, but you're not like a world-class athlete, you want to do it in a group and you want it to be part of a team that you have a lot of chemistry with. And they started off that way, but they're going to make a decision.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And it's unclear why they made this decision, frankly. And you read a bunch of stuff and it's just a little unusual. It's kind of like Zolotarov with The Outlaws Past. They add someone at the very end. In November 1972, Defoe says they're going to have another member added to their crew. 36-year-old Janet Johnson, who's a teacher from Denver, Colorado. Now, they didn't really know her.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
You know, a lot of these people are from Oregon. But she was probably the most experienced climber in the group. I think that was one of the reasons they wanted to take her. Obviously, she's the only woman. By the age of 30, she had become one of the first 20 women to climb to the summits of Colorado's 14ers. There are 50 mountains in Colorado that exceed 14,000 feet, and she had climbed them all.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Her expeditions and her photographs are often featured in Trail and Timberline magazine. She was an excellent photographer. And if you see the photos from this expedition, you know that. And I wonder if that was part of it, if they thought we'll have her, she'll document the trip and it'll elevate it. Maybe we can get into these magazines.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
She also was someone who had climbed peaks around the world. This is what she did. This is what she was into. She was gay. And that's important because according to her sister, she didn't have a lot of friends. When she came out to her parents, their reaction was very negative.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And her response was to kind of go into herself and to become a very introverted person and someone who did a lot of challenges on her own. And so she would climb these mountains, but she wasn't really a team player. She becomes part of this team. And that introversion is going to be something that the team members notice.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And it's going to be something that starts to create some friction, not because of her sexuality, but because of sort of her personality that has kind of grown out of that. And you're going to see that as we move forward in this case. So January 19th, 1973, the climbers arrive in Argentina. You might think, man, they're going to climb a mountain in the middle of winter.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
No, in Argentina, it's actually summer. So this is the perfect time to climb the mountain. And they were greeted by reporters at the Nutabera Hotel in Mendoza's city center. And this is one of those things where this was kind of a big deal. They're going to do this thing that's only been done four times before. There are a bunch of Americans. There's some buzz about this.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So you have these reporters show up. And what's interesting is one of the reporters, Rafael Moran, he was a reporter from Los Andes, which is a daily newspaper in Mendoza. He's interviewing the Mountaineers near the pool, and he taps into something that we've been hinting at that is going to become important. He has this feeling about the group.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They're not the kind of all in it together group that you expect to see from some mountaineers who are going to try a really difficult climb. They are not friendly. They are not chummy. In fact, it seems like they are disconnected from one another and not really prepared for for the serious task of climbing Aconcagua. And this is not him looking back with 20-20 hindsight.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And we are the prosecutors. today on The Prosecutors. Some of the things you may have missed when we were off microphone. It's the most wonderful time of the year. It's our bloopers. And it'll just be a hundred of our best friends who will.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I feel like the blue turtleneck is going to become my tiger red on Sundays. I'm going to just pull it out for the best stuff.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay, yeah, let's... Anyway. Alice is going to try and get through this. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. She's going to get all the coughing out right now.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Allison sees it. You do look amazing. I told her it's like in the Victorian era where people had tuberculosis and stuff and it made them look beautiful. It's the same thing. It's the same thing.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah. Yeah. Well, these folks in the chat over here have a long list of things that they think I say wrong, so, you know, it's okay.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
See, it's called the big green bus. Well, ours is no longer.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
If we lost the big green bus, I don't think my son would ever recover.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I'm sure you only skipped the ball because you wanted to do this recording. Is that right?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
This is how I know I'm old, because I hate those things. It's like you go, and they do stupid stuff.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And then you drink a lot, and it's just like, whatever. This is ridiculous.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
You have a lot of questions? Well, I have a lot of answers. Okay, well, here we go. You probably do have a lot of answers. Here we go. You ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Let's do it. Okay. Take a deep breath. Okay. Anyways. We're all about Mardi Gras in Montgomery. Don't ask me why.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Which is not that close to Montgomery. I mean, I understand Mobile, but...
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah, I know. It's just, it's constantly making fun of me. Hurts my feelings.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And when I look back on that, I'm like, guys, I was highly irresponsible.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I mean, you know, I put milk punch in my kids' bottles. They don't drink milk. They drink milk and bourbon combined together. You want to start them young, right?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Go blow your nose. We've got to answer a question anyway. Go blow your nose.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay. See, this is what you guys are paying the extra money for, is this. Alice blowing her nose. Congratulations to all of you. You made a good investment.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
rabies i always felt like rabies was the best precursor to a zombie outbreak those of you who've seen wreck that's what causes the zombie outbreak in that so that's really good because you have two forms of rabies one which essentially puts you in a coma but the other one which is like aggressive where you actually try and bite other people like it causes you to try and transmit the rabies so this is my kraken hat you see it's got a little red eye you see it that's its red eye yeah
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Seattle hockey team, the Kraken. As soon as they announced the name, I bought this hat for this very reason. REC, REC. It's a found footage horror movie.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I don't know if you're muted or we heard. I agree with that.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Kayla, you might want to try turning off your video and just keep your audio on.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
It's funny because we can hear you, but your image is not matching it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah, me too. Well, it's kind of funny that you spend so much time down there. Kiss me. Well, Alice pulled that one in one of our Kiss of Me.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And it is technically recording locally. So all your brilliance is probably being recorded.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
We're all sinners in the hands of an angry God. Kayla's definitely got the teammate computer too.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
What's going to be interesting is, like I said, it's recording locally for her. So there's going to be all this, like, beautiful stuff that we're just going to be able to.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
We'll have Jason do the editing. We'll see what he comes up with. We'll send you the audio and feel free to release it on your, your stream as well.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I was in court yesterday, but today I was writing briefs all day.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined on... Let me try that again. See, I'm just so nervous.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Even though I don't think it's an exorcism, I still can't handle it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I mean, that's the thing. It's horrific no matter what, right? I mean, it's either an exorcism or someone in the depths of a mental break of immense power. So it's horrific to listen to.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah, absolutely. No, I think that's right. I mean, that's the thing. You know, if you have epilepsy, I don't know. I don't think in today and I could be wrong about this. I don't think you'd ever get to an exorcism because I. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Already off to a good start. So nervous. Already off to a good start.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Right. And you're not saying that somebody with epilepsy can't be possessed by a demon. I guess they can. But it's just when you're trying to decide how to approach this, I don't know how you could ever do that. And that's the thing. If she were just I mean, the Roland Doe case is just completely different. It's just completely different.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And the power of suggestion is powerful. And in even some of the physical manifestations, I'm not convinced that the body, if you believe something enough, the body couldn't do the things that she was doing.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That was a sad one. Next episode is a lot more fun. I'll just go ahead and tell you that.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Not yet. I'm going to end the stream. Bye to everyone in the chat. Thank you guys for joining us.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
If we still live here. If we're still doing this podcast in 20 years.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, when I first saw it, when I first saw it was going to be in 2044, I was like, well, man, I'll probably be dead by then. And I started doing the math and I was like, well, I hope I'm not dead.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
We don't go to Reddit for this very reason. Thank you for bringing Reddit to us.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Oh wait, Alice just disappeared. Bye Alice. I guess it's just me now. Oh, there she's back.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I didn't know if you'd gotten, if Chevron step two had kicked in or something.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Awesome. Great. You're not delayed for me. I can hear you. Am I delayed?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Sorry, Sophie. Let's see. I guess I can use another one from the kids.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay, let's see. Of course, I haven't been marking off which ones I use, so I have to remember. Sorry. Sorry, Jillian. Technical delays.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
How's Robert Juan going? Everybody seems like they're really enjoying it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Exactly. Exactly. Well, look, this has been so much fun. Thank you. I know you're on the East Coast, so thanks for... I had a blast with you guys. I had a blast. Thanks for letting us do it with our patrons.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
You just get all your stuff from Reddit. That's what I heard.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I was just glad that all the doctors got to show just how small they were.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
They just lost their minds about it. Anyway. But I think you're probably right. I mean, I think you're probably, I'm more and more in the GHB or something in the glass camp.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And that just for whatever reason, the drug test didn't show it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That was awesome. That was such a fun interview. He's just incredible.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
People always ask that, and I'm like, well, they were. I mean, I haven't read that they were, but they have to have been.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I know. Before I first started doing this case, I was like, man, it's going to suck to break his heart, but he's so nice.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, we're already, we've already got our suspect tag. So, okay. Well, I'll go ahead and start us since, you know, these people don't want to hear about Robert one anymore. All right. Um,
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
true and i i survived you did you made it you made it okay well we're gonna go ahead and sign off guys because alice needs to go go to bed but thank you guys thank you so much we'll see you guys uh probably next week sometime when alice is recovered no i'm great bye guys bye everybody
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I am knee deep in it, but it's really if you're knee deep in it, you've got, you know, a lot further. Exactly. You got to be at the bottom of the Marianas Trench to really be ready to talk about it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
But when it happens, you're going to be on the spot. You're going to have to come and talk about it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
So, let's see. Let's do Robert 1 tomorrow. We could do another. We could do Rule 803.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, yeah. I mean, we've got what we recorded last week, whatever that was.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah, let's do hearsay unless there's news that we need to talk about. I don't know. I'll schedule our thing for tomorrow.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
piling on like each of the things went to potential illegal conduct right i mean a lot of them a lot of them i mean the stuff to the people in oasis i mean sending that to a group of people you shouldn't be saying anything you don't want to be that's not public i mean that's not private
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
So for our 67 best friends who are still here, do you want to give them any hint about what you're doing next?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That is very illegal, by the way. So I hope you've got the...
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
By the way, Javier, there's a whole Reddit conspiracy that Alice and I aren't really prosecutors. So if you want to do that.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
If I get a call and you're like, hey, do you want to come on my show?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, guys who are watching, I'm going to go ahead and end the stream so we can download this. You guys know how this goes. Thank y'all for joining us. Everybody say thank you to Javier. Go listen to the show if you haven't, though I assume you're still here. You definitely did. And we'll see you guys later.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I don't have my rallies. I had to set off our camels. I thought about wearing a suit, but then I thought better of it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah, of course I bought it for this. I would never. What are you talking about? I would have cigarettes in the house.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
It is a menthol. I think this is menthol. Actually, I think this is camel blue. So never mind. Never mind. Not a menthol. Oh, here we go. Are we recording? We're recording, right? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay. I'm so excited. Here we go. I know you are. I'm going to do this.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That is all. All right. So we stop in this extra recording. I mean, I can talk about this for the rest of the night if you want to.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Sorry, we had a bedtime question, and she's more important than you are.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, she's way more important than they are. So, sorry, guys. You just got to wait. Okay, let's see.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah. Yeah. You've probably insulted half our listeners, as you tend to do. That's fine, though. It's the half we don't like.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay. All right. Here we go. Oh, I guess I should pick a word for you.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
They're going to get it. As they know, you were texting the whole time, so I don't want to hear it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
17 minutes. There you go. We didn't get ads, so we don't have any ads this week.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I'll check real quick, just to make sure nothing came through.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Oh, we only have one to record, too. That's good. Oh, no, actually, we've got... Excuse me. We have three to record. I'm not the best counter. I'm not a great counter. Okay. I'm going to go ahead and go live while you cough.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I don't think I'm sweating right now, so if I'm not sweating, I'm probably not feverish. Well, that's good.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And we're going to talk more about this later, but Alice nails it. And it's so easy in hindsight to say, well, she violated procedure. She should have gotten out of her car. She should have gone inside. She should have taken a report. She should have done X. She should have done Y. It's so easy to say that she's triaging.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
You know, it's like anybody else is like any nurse in an emergency room on a Saturday night. Right. You've got to decide what are the big issues? What are the issues I can kind of let go? She's responding to all these different events. And I think that's right. Number one, to the extent he's a threat, he's gone.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Number two, to the extent it's a welfare check, to the extent it's we're worried about this guy. He's gone either way. He's gone. Right. So, you know, on a quiet night when nothing was happening, would she have gone in and written up a report? Probably. But she's coming from one call. She's going to another one. She's sort of stopping there. And it seems like everything has passed by.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So now here we are. However many years later, 30, I don't know. I can't do the math. 32 years later.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Yeah, whatever. We're questioning her and her decisions, but she could not know at the time. This might be significant because the Bojangles we're talking about is not that far from the crime scene, particularly if you're walking down the interstate. Like I said, we're going to do more on this.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
People have tried to retrace these steps and figure this out, but this is essentially the first civilized place you would reach If you walked from the crime scene down the interstate to somewhere else, this is where you'd end up is the Bojangles. And that's where he ended up. And a hair is going to be found later on that appears to belong to a black man. And so you have this incident.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
the blood, and that hair. And it's going to make you think, I wonder if this is connected. The problem is, after Regina Meek left, Bojangles did what you would expect Bojangles to do. They cleaned up the women's restroom. By the next day, Detective Ridge, who we talked about before, he will show up to Bojangles. to take some scrapings of the blood that's left.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And he will find blood that's left that they didn't quite get. But it's never tested, and in fact, the evidence was lost. And he will admit this in cross-examination in the trials, that he messed up, he lost his blood. So, there is no physical evidence we can test against Mr. Bojangles, as he has come to be called, and the crime.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And Mr. Bojangles will remain sort of this glaring aspect of this case. You can never get over it. And I'll tell you, when I first started looking at this case, Bojangles haunted me. I was haunted by Bojangles because it just feels like, man, this could be it. This could be the key to everything. But what can you do with that beyond say that?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Well, like I said, we're going to talk about it more later, but this was an opportunity, in my opinion, through the fault of no one, except maybe Detective Ridge, that was lost. And it's probably just a red herring.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And look, we've talked about this a thousand times. I am a big believer that there will never be a theory that answers all the questions. Even if it's correct. Even if you know exactly who did it. Think about the cases we looked at. Murdaugh. There are still questions in the Murdaugh case about how exactly the murders went down. Do I have any doubt that Alec Murdaugh killed his family? No.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
I have none. But there are still questions about that. O.J. Simpson. I don't care who it is. There are always questions about... How exactly it happened. Unless you have every event on camera, you're never going to know. And I think this could be one of those. So Regina Meek leaves. She ends up at 1006 Roy Pugh, where the egged house apparently is.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Apparently this house is vacant, which is a little weird. But nevertheless, that's where she goes. That's what she's doing. That's where she ends up. And I think she comes back in the story later on.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And I got to tell you, Alice, you're absolutely right. Beam Dream will help bring your focus and energy back. And I know that I finally felt like I could tackle life head on instead of just trying to get through it. And we're not the only ones. Beam has already improved over 17 and a half million nights of sleep, helping people across the country wake up and feel their best.
The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash prosecutors. Okay, so now we're at a point where it is dark and the boys are missing and the families are looking, but they're not getting a lot of assistance. John Mark Byers will complain about this for a long time, that he just wasn't getting a lot of help.
The Prosecutors
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We've said we're open-minded. We're recording this before we actually have released any episodes. I know there'll be someone who says we have our mind made up from the very beginning, but it's not true. We are very open-minded, and maybe the most open-minded we've ever been in this case. Because, I mean, this is a case we're still researching. We're still talking to people.
The Prosecutors
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But he did have another police officer, John Moore, who was sort of helping him look for the boys. And they're looking all over the neighborhood, including in Robin Hood County. And they sort of, like everyone else in this case, they're going into Robin Hood Hills just a little bit. They're not going all the way in, but just a little bit.
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And they're seeing things that make them believe that maybe the boys did go in there. They're seeing tracks. They're seeing things like bicycle tracks leading into the general direction of where the boys will eventually go.
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be found and it's at this point that things get really interesting and the things we're going to talk about next are events that it is hard to say exactly what they mean but they are so striking to me because it feels like this is connected directly to the cover-up of this case
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Still having people reach out who want to talk about this case. And I am fascinated by this. Really glad to be doing this with you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much to those of you who've never listened to us before. Because I'm sure there's some of you. I hope you're enjoying this. But we don't want to waste your time. We're here with our patrons.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And look, you know, we're talking about timelines and trying to establish timelines. We've already said mosquitoes make you think the boys were dead sometime shortly after eight o'clock. It's nine o'clock now. And Ryan is hearing these splashes. This cover up, this, the murder and the covering up of the murder. had to have happened in a very quick timeline. We're talking an hour, right?
The Prosecutors
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So if you assume the boys are killed sometime early in the 8 o'clock hour, maybe a little bit earlier, and then you hear Ryan Clark and his friends talk about this and talk about the splashes and you think about the bikes and you think about the bodies, it really feels like they are right there when this is happening, right there when this cover-up is occurring.
The Prosecutors
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And if that's true, then essentially this is done by 9 o'clock, 9.15 maybe. Because after that initial sort of fear, and they hear what they describe as a gunshot, they then go kind of into the woods. They go past the pipe bridge. Because remember, they're searching on the other side of the pipe bridge because they don't think their brother...
The Prosecutors
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And for the last 10 minutes, we've been wasting their time. But we're not going to waste your time. Because you're getting this for free. They're paying for it. So they get all the wasted time. But you guys, y'all are just listening in. to the episodes and the ads, and we're just going to dive right in. Right, Alice?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Ryan doesn't think his brother would go across the pipe. We know now that he did and he was killed and his body was disposed of across the pipe. They don't go over there. The bikes were either on the neighborhood side of the pipe or the boys had walked the bikes across the pipe, but left them sort of close to the pipe because the bikes end up in the water beneath the pipe, essentially.
The Prosecutors
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So it seems like whoever did this took the bikes and And just threw them in the bayou underneath the pipe bridge or near the pipe bridge. That seems like that's what happened. So this cover up is happening right then at this time. So after about 915 or so, it's done. And the people who did this would have been leaving the woods. Now, why is this important?
The Prosecutors
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If Ryan is right, then John Mark Byers didn't do it. Terry Hobbs didn't do it. because they are all accounted for at this point. For it to be Terry Hobbs or John Mark Byers, this has to be a red herring. It has to be what they heard is what they heard, but it isn't important because it all had to have occurred earlier. If they're right, then those very popular suspects go away altogether.
The Prosecutors
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We've already basically ruled out John Mark Byers, but Terry Hobbs is still viable because But he's not viable if you believe this. If this is part of the cover-up of the murders, it's not him. Now, are they correct? I don't know. They will not be the only people to mention a gunshot or multiple gunshots. People have heard this. Obviously, the boys were not shot.
The Prosecutors
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Guns are not involved in this case, but people heard gunshots, including them. I don't know what that means. I can't explain that. But this is a really important part of this story.
The Prosecutors
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I don't want to dwell on this, but I feel like this is something people don't talk about enough. This case, one of the reasons to me it's so striking is Yes, it is a testament to how horrific murder can be and how it really can happen right under your nose. These woods are small, they're tiny, and there are so many people around while this is happening.
The Prosecutors
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This horrific thing is happening in these woods right underneath the noses of so many people. And it's just I don't know, it's just it's right there. And anyone could have seen something that solved this case forever, but none of them did. And that is striking to me.
The Prosecutors
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So just to recap, we are still doing the timeline. We're on the day of the murder. We've reached a point in time where the murders are either happening or have already occurred. So this is an intense time. It's a time to really pay attention because remember, we have three people who are going to be convicted of this crime. They're going to set up alibis later on.
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And I will say this, and I don't know Terry, I'm not defending Terry, but I am a man who grew up in the South. And I think there's this notion that it's weird he didn't tell Pam first. But I can imagine for Terry, that is going to be such a difficult thing.
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And this is hard to describe, but telling her that he has not found her son and then in fact her son is missing and in fact he's calling the police to report him missing is such a difficult thing to do and outside his comfort zone. that it isn't surprising to me that he sort of walks right past her, calls the police, tells the police, and then has to deal with it.
The Prosecutors
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And I don't know if I'm explaining that well, but it just doesn't surprise me, particularly thinking back to 1993 and sort of even more so the male in the South They're not talking about their feelings, right? Like engaging in something that's going to be deeply traumatic would have been difficult for him. So I don't necessarily find this unusual.
The Prosecutors
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And what happens in this time period is important for both thinking about whether or not they did it and trying to figure out what happened that night.
The Prosecutors
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And look, this is a missed opportunity. It's something that John Mark Byers is going to complain about. At this point, you have three boys who have been reported missing. Probably an all-out search was appropriate. But it doesn't seem like that happened. Now, searches occurred, but it was members of the community. And we're going to talk about that later. They probably messed up a lot of stuff.
The Prosecutors
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People talk about how there's very little physical evidence in this case. Well, I think part of that is there were so many people going through those woods looking for the kids. But we'll talk about that later. Okay, it's 930. And one of the most important events is going to occur. So mark this in your mind, because we're going to talk about this a lot. So at 9.30, Narlene Hollingsworth.
The Prosecutors
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You may remember her. She is someone who reports later on to seeing the boys. Her report is pretty inaccurate, based on what everybody's wearing and everything else, but she says she saw the boys riding their bikes, she almost hit them with her car, she yelled at them, etc., etc.
The Prosecutors
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So Narlene Hollingsworth, her husband, two sons, two daughters, and a family friend who was the youngest son's girlfriend, pile into their Ford Escort station wagon to go pick up a friend from, who I think is also a relative, from the laundromat. And I'll say this, we're going to talk about the Hollingsworths a lot.
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their family tree, we could spend five episodes trying to break down their family tree. Like Gnarlyne's husband is her ex-husband's brother, for instance. So she's got people who are her ex-son-in-laws that's now her nephew. She's related to everybody. Hogsworths are related to everybody. It's very confusing.
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just know this family is going to play a big role in this entire story so they're the entire family as one was want to do back in 1993 when you didn't have the internet they climb into the station wagon you know the kids love station wagons i don't know if you had a station wagon the seats that face out the back exactly the best thing ever So all the kids are piling in the back, totally unsafe.
The Prosecutors
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Everybody's going to die if there's a wreck. But, like, 27 people would be in these cars, right? And that's what happened here. So they all pile into this station wagon. They're going to go pick up their relative, Dixie. Great name. The laundromat. So they head down there.
The Prosecutors
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And as they're driving to the laundromat, they're on the service road running by the Blue Beacon and running by the Robin Hood Hills. And as they're going, they're driving down the road, and all of a sudden... their headlights shine on two people. And those two people, according to Narlene, she immediately recognizes as Dominique Teer and Damien Eccles.
The Prosecutors
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And they see them coming out of the woods near the Blue Beacon truck stop. And they are heading towards Lakeshore Estates. Remember, Damien would often travel through the neighborhood, through Robin Hood Hills, going north to Lakeshore. And it was up in that direction that Domini lived, and Damien would often stay with her.
The Prosecutors
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So they see these two people heading that direction, and they're on this South Service Road, and it's right there, the Blue Beacon and this Love truck stop, right on the edge where the murders occurred. And they will say, and many of them will either give statements or will testify in the various trials, that both of them looked muddy. And Narlene is actually upset about this.
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And she doesn't like the fact that Domini and Damien are out that late. Now, her husband will say, don't worry about it. I see them out all the time. And at some point, Narlene says, well, we need to pick them up. And her husband's like, well, where are you going to put Damien? You going to let him sit in one of the kids' laps? And she's like... No, actually, no, let's just keep going.
The Prosecutors
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Remember, we had splashes in the nine o'clock hour and now at 930. You have someone claiming to see Damien and somewhat unexpectedly, given that we know how this goes, Domini leaving the area of the murders, heading home. And they are muddy. You can see why this is important. And we're going to talk extensively about the sighting and whether or not it is credible.
The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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I just answered a few quick questions about my wine preferences on their site, and they put together an amazing assortment of top-notch wines just for me. And it all gets delivered right to my door. I told you this before. I like drinking wines, but I don't know anything about them. But using the process that First Leaf has, I was able to let them know I'm adventurous.
The Prosecutors
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I want stuff from all over the world. That's what I'm looking for. And that's what they delivered. I got some great Argentine wine, some Spanish wine, some South African wines, and even got some cava. The kind of things that I wouldn't normally pick up. That's why I love First Leaf. They are always introducing me to new and exciting wines to try.
The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
What's interesting about that This is a problem for the prosecution, because the prosecution doesn't think Domini's there. They think Jason is there, right? So they actually are going to try and paint this as the Hollingsworths were right about Damien, but they got Domini wrong. They actually saw Jason and mistook him for Domini. We'll talk about that later.
The Prosecutors
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But that's interesting for a couple reasons. Number one, because... That's obviously somewhat of a weakness for the prosecution, but many people are going to paint this as a false statement that everyone in the Hollingsworth clan is lying. But I will just go ahead and roll this out there for you to think about until we get to this to discuss later. If the Hollingsworths were lying.
The Prosecutors
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If they were trying to collect a reward, if that's what they were doing, why would they say it was Dominion, not Jason? Why wouldn't they say we saw Damien and Jason, which fits perfectly for what the state wants. But they never say that. They never change their statement that they saw Dominion. Damien and Domini coming out of those woods that night.
The Prosecutors
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Like I said, this is a very important point, and we will come back to it later. So that's at 9.30. Sometime between 9 and 10.30, Damien will talk in the phone to some girls. We've mentioned them before, and we're going to talk about them more later. When exactly he did that and who exactly he talked to is going to be important for his alibi.
The Prosecutors
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So between 10 and 11 p.m., Nancy Garrett, who lives on Proctor, will report that she hears five, count them, five gunshots. So I think this is interesting because you have the boys who are looking for our eight-year-old victims saying they heard a gunshot. Later on, you're going to hear someone saying she heard five gunshots. And I think that helps if you believe...
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
The gunshots are probably unrelated or they're something else. I think the fact that she hears five gunshots between 10 and 11 tells you maybe gunshots weren't that unusual in the neighborhood. Probably not significant. At around midnight, Heather Cleit will talk to Jason and Damien on a three-way call. And I think we can say for certain that by midnight, both boys are back home.
The Prosecutors
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They're talking on the phone and whatever has happened, if they're involved in it or not, is fine.
The Prosecutors
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And we're going to do a lot on the alibis and the timelines. So don't worry, we're going to dive into this. But just know, these are all times that are very much disputed.
The Prosecutors
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And at some point, they're going to find a footprint near where the boys are found. They're going to take a cast of that. They're never able to match it to anybody. And this is a piece of evidence people point to in defense of the West Memphis Three. The problem is there are so many people in those woods. I mean, this is the ultimate. And you don't hear about this a lot.
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People don't talk about this. The whole like dirt bikes and ATVs and three wheelers and everything else. I mean, you want to know why everything was destroyed and torn up. You ever seen somebody riding a dirt bike through through a muddy area? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
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I mean, they had no hope of finding any actual evidence of the people who did this at the scene because you had people who didn't know that was the scene because the boys are under the water at this point. And the killer has made a pretty concerted effort to cover up where the actual murder scene was. So it was just totally destroyed.
The Prosecutors
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Yeah, I mean, it's hard to even imagine this, but it's almost cinematic in the way this happens. Like, tragically, horrifically cinematic. It's 1.45 p.m. You have Sergeant Mike Allen, who's there, Steve Jones, and Detective Brian Ridge. And Brian Ridge has fallen into the water. and essentially he lands on top of the body of Michael Moore.
The Prosecutors
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He stands up after he falls into this water, and he notices that his foot does not sink into the mud as he would expect it to, and that's because he is standing on something solid. And when he raises his foot out of sort of this muddy water, a body, this pale white body,
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rises up in the water to the surface and it is the body of michael moore and at that point they know they have something far worse than an accident far worse than a drowning this is a murder immediately Detective Gary Gitchell is notified. He calls dispatch to open a case, which they do. And that case is 93050666. At 256, the second body is located.
The Prosecutors
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So basically, you have these detectives crawling through the water on their hands and knees. Assuming they're going to find something else. There's one body that's been submerged, basically pressed down into the water with a stick. They're sort of crawling along the ditch bank and they're coming upon these other sticks driven into the mud. But those sticks don't have bodies underneath them.
The Prosecutors
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They have clothing wrapped around them. Shirts, underwear, pants, that sort of thing. All clothing belonging to the boys. But around 25 feet south of the verse body, they find Stevie Branch. And this is also where they will find the impartial shoe print on the bank of directly across from where the body is found, which is why they take the plaster cast.
The Prosecutors
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But once again, hard to say because you could have stood on that ditch bank, looked out over it and had no idea that beneath that water were dead bodies.
The Prosecutors
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It's one of those things you think about how close it was. They would not have concealed these bodies forever because eventually that ditch bank, there wouldn't have been water there anymore. It's a temporary thing. At some point, they were going to find those bodies, but it could have been much later.
The Prosecutors
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If that shoe had not been floating there, had he not fallen exactly where he'd fallen, if he'd have reached down and grabbed the shoe, who knows, right? What they would have found when they found it. But it's purely because he fell in where he did that he found that first body and it leads to the other ones.
The Prosecutors
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And let me just say this. These officers are going to be demonized. You know, they're going to be accused of framing people and everything else. I mean, this is such a human moment because they make mistakes here, too. There's a point where the bodies are in the water and they just they can't stand that anymore. And they actually carry the bodies.
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to the bank that was probably a mistake because once they do that decomposition begins and it becomes accelerated there are flies larva all sorts of things that they confuse the time of death and it's a problem it takes a while for the coroner to get there and this is an impossible situation that they're dealing with and they've been criticized for a lot of things they did but it's hard if you really think about it to be too critical of the decisions they made at this point
The Prosecutors
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So three minutes later. So remember, this is important. Remember this because this is significant. First body, Michael Moore. Essentially fall on it. 25 feet south of that first body. Sometimes described as 30 feet south of that first body. They find Stevie Branch. Only five feet from that is Christopher Byers.
The Prosecutors
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So Christopher Byers and Stevie Branch are found very near to each other in this water. Relatively, Michael Moore, he has a long way away. 10 yards, 30 feet. He's a good distance. That will become important later. We're going to talk a lot about that. But they find Christopher Byers, and when they find him, this is already shocking, but it is going to become even more shocking.
The Prosecutors
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It appears that Christopher has essentially been castrated. His genital area has been severely abused, and we're going to talk about that a lot. Unfortunately, that's going to be one of those difficult discussions we're going to have. They now are 100% sure that what they have is a horrific murder.
The Prosecutors
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These boys, their bodies are not only found, but they're also bound and they're bound in an incredibly unusual way. It's been described as hogtied, but I don't even think that's accurate. Left hand to left ankle, right hand to right ankle. They are tied with shoelaces taken from their own shoes.
The Prosecutors
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So there is no question that this is a horrific, brutal murder and that someone has taken very specific steps to try and cover up that crime. The police are going to make the Blue Beacon their staging area, and they will come in actually from that side to avoid contaminating the crime scene, though frankly, that's already happened. It is too late. The crime scene is wholly contaminated.
The Prosecutors
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By 355 West Memphis Utility, they are there. They are pumping out the creek and blocking it with sandbags because they know there's evidence in that water, and they want to find it all.
The Prosecutors
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Yes, this will be hugely important because this is reported far and wide. This becomes a national story and a huge story across Arkansas. And Alice is right. This goes out. Gary Gitchell is angry that this went out. But there's an opportunity here because. The misinformation is something they can use later on. We've talked about holdback evidence. It's kind of the opposite of holdback evidence.
The Prosecutors
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This is we put the evidence out there, but it's wrong evidence. So if you have someone who comes in and says, I did it or I was with a bunch of people did it. We castrated all the kids. You know, that person is lying. But. If you have someone who shows up and says, I was with two other people who committed this crime and they castrated one person. And I'm going to tell you who that person was.
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If you have an individual like that, that's the kind of confession that you say, that sounds like maybe somebody who was actually there. And that is going to become incredibly important later on when we talk about the confession in this case. So we are now through the murders and the finding of the bodies. From this point forward, we're talking about the investigation.
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We're going to go through the timeline of the investigation. And then, as I've said before, we're going to back up and we're going to talk in detail about a lot of these important things that happened. You guys have made it through four episodes. Congratulations. You probably only got another 16 to go before we reach the conclusion. But this case, it's a huge case. It is a famous case.
The Prosecutors
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It is an important case. And we're going to give it everything it deserves. And I get it. If you're not in it for the long haul, we'll see you in October. I love October. That's probably when this will be over. Congratulations. You can take a break. But If you're with us through this, I think this is going to be one of those cases we all talk about in our coverage of this case.
The Prosecutors
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We'll bind us all together. We'll all get shirts. It'll be amazing. So I hope you're enjoying this. It's worth it. And I think every aspect of this case is so fascinating. And I hope you guys are finding that as well. Let us know what you're thinking. Shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com and prosecutorspod for all your social media.
The Prosecutors
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Join us on the gallery where we're discussing this case or join Patreon where you can hear us record these episodes early. Or if you don't want to watch them recorded, you will always get them early and ad free before they reach the public. Well, Alice, before we sign off for today, do you have anything else you want to add?
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Yeah, and look, would this case be as famous as it is if that weren't true? There are mistakes the police made, lots of them. This investigation, I think, should probably have been turned over to the state police. It never was. And so you had this local police department, for whatever reason, trying to take the lead on this.
The Prosecutors
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getting some assistance from the FBI, some assistance from the state police, but trying to do this when they probably weren't really able. I mean, this case was so much bigger than they could ever have imagined. And that's why it's famous. And that's why it's unsatisfying. Because if we could find satisfying answers, we wouldn't be talking about it, right? I mean, that's the problem with Catch-22.
The Prosecutors
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So we're going to go through this and we're going to try and reach some sort of truth. But this is tough. This is a tough one. and we're gonna do the best we can but we hope you guys will be with us every step of the way and we will continue that march next week but until then i'm brett and i'm alice and we are the prosecutors I mean, it could just be a backfire.
The Prosecutors
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I mean, look, they're right on the interstate. They're right next to the Blue Beacon truck wash. Maybe it doesn't mean anything. And yeah, I mean, look, I hear gunshots all the time. But you can tell when it's close. I mean, I feel like if you say, I heard gunshots, you mean I heard gunshots close. You know, close enough to be frightening.
The Prosecutors
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some people said they heard three or four gunshots there's gunshots like left and right but it's late at this point we're in the nighttime could just be typical urban environment I feel like the gunshots aren't related, personally. Or car bank fires. Whatever they are, I feel like they're not related. Maybe they didn't want to have dead bodies in their car, Jessica.
The Prosecutors
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I know you drive around with dead bodies all the time, but some of us are a little freaked out by that. Cats. Cats don't sound like gunshots. Come on. Cats sound like gunshots. Oh, cars. Okay. Okay, that makes more sense. Sorry. Imagine a cat making a gunshot noise. So, Jessica, while we're on the topic, what do you think?
The Prosecutors
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And I think this is one of those things that really, it's funny, whenever we talk about these cases, there are certain facts that strike you depending on your own life experience. You bring yourself to these cases. Same thing with jurors. Jurors bring themselves to the case, right? And that's important.
The Prosecutors
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If you are from the South, you understand mosquitoes in a way that people don't understand them in other parts of the country, right? You know, in other parts of the world, I've been to Southeast Asia and they have mosquitoes just as bad as we do, maybe worse. But in the South, mosquitoes are a part of life that is just, it's such a massive part of your life in this part of the year.
The Prosecutors
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Because Alice is right. It's wonderful outside and you want to be outside. Right now, we're sort of in a happy place, but very soon the mosquitoes are going to become overwhelming. Overwhelming. And it just gets to a point where you can't do anything because of the mosquitoes, particularly if you live in a marshy area, if you live near a swamp, if you live in a place like the Ten Mile Bayou.
The Prosecutors
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So why is this important? You're thinking, we don't know when this murder occurred. We don't know when the boys were killed. We can't know. But the mosquitoes tell you something. If the boys were still alive at this point, we can assume they're going to be bitten by mosquitoes. Now, not everyone reacts the same way to mosquito bites. I am blessed. Mosquito bites me. It doesn't affect me.
The Prosecutors
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I don't get itchy. Nothing. Nothing happens to me when a mosquito bites me, right? But most people, when they're bitten by a mosquito, it's very bothersome. It's very itchy. It's something that they want to get away from. And it's something that leaves a mark of some sort. The boys, as we're going to see, have no evidence of mosquito bites on them. Now, Alice is right.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Mosquitoes bite living things. Once you die, mosquitoes are not going to bite you. Other insects will, but not mosquitoes. So that means one of two things.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Either by this point, the 8 o'clock hour, between 8 and 8.30, the boys are either dead or they are going to be dead so soon after this that if they were bitten by mosquitoes, there's not enough time for the reaction to occur that indicates mosquito bites.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So I feel like even though we can't say when they're killed, we can say it's sometime right around here because the mosquitoes are so thick that Regina Meek is saying, I'm swallowing them, just standing at the edge of the bayou. I'm swallowing them. That's a big deal to me.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And we are the Prosecutors. today on The Prosecutors. We continue our look at the timeline in the West Memphis Three case. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined as always by my open-minded co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
I do want to say, I said last week, there's this question of when Terry Hobbs first went down to Robin Hood Hills. And Jessica of Just the Facts, true crime research, pointed out to me that in a Maury Povich interview in 1994, which is only a year later. John Mark Byers had said that he saw Terry around the woods at this time. So I said it was many years later that he said that.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Turns out that's not true. That's interesting to me. Now, look, just like Regina Meeks went down to Robin Hood Hills. and didn't go in and didn't see anything, it may well be the case that Terry Hobbs did the same thing. But I want to repent of what I said last time. It is probably not the case that John Mark Byers said that for the first time many years later.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
As early as a year later, he was saying that he saw Terry down near Robin Hood Hills calling into the woods for his son. Now I will say this, that cuts both ways. Because on the one hand, you can say, well, the fact that he was doing that indicates he knew they were in there. Right. OK, maybe. But it also gives him an alibi around this time.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
It shows that he wasn't in Robin Hood Hills murdering the kids at this time. And that timeline is going to be very important when we look at alternative suspects later on. So that brings us to 842 and a familiar character, the same officer, Regina Meek. Now, this is the person who responded to John Mark Byer's call for help.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
At this point, she's gone down to the bayou, seen the mosquitoes, didn't see anything else, and she leaves because she has a new call. And she pulls into the drive-through of the Bojangles restaurant in response to another call. Those of you who don't have Bojangles, I'm sure you've heard of Kentucky Fried Chicken. It's basically Kentucky Fried Chicken.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
You know, we have all these chicken restaurants in the South. So there's Kentucky Fried Chicken. There's, oh, what's the Louisiana chicken?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So there's Popeye's, there's Bojangles, which is also Cajun chicken. There's the one that's Texas chicken, Church's. Church's? Church's is like Texas chicken, whatever that means.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
You're right. That's why they have a star as their thing. Anyway, so we have all these chicken restaurants. It's just a fast food chicken place. That's what Bojangles is, right? So Regina makes, she gets a phone call and rather than go into the restaurant, she just drives to the drive-thru like she's any other customer, right? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And she's told through the window that a bleeding black man had gone into the women's restroom about 30 minutes before she arrived, so around 8.15. And not only did he have blood on his face and what appeared to be a cast on one arm, but he also seemed like he was having some sort of mental issue.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Now, minutes before she had arrived, the man had left the premises of the Bojangles, but he had left his mark. Blood was smeared on the walls of the women's restroom. Now, the problem is Regina Meeks, she never goes into the restroom. She never goes into the restaurant. She never looks to see what's there. She collects no evidence.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Basically, she takes this report and she does not investigate further. Now, I think in defense of her, she's thinking just another night in West Memphis, right? Some guy, he's bleeding for some reason. He's probably high. He goes in the restroom. He makes a mess. But then he leaves. The event is over. No big deal. She clears it and she leaves the scene at nine o'clock.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Because, as Alice said, it seems like she is the only officer on call. There's a report of someone egging a house. And so she gets called to respond to that. So she leaves the Bojangles to go investigate the egging.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I mean, this was gruesome, but gruesomeness that you would see if someone had been decapitated while they were still alive. So initially, the police were thinking the decapitation was postmortem. We don't know how Russell was killed, but we think it was post-mortem. And as they're looking at the body, things would seem to confirm that.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Is the opposite of homely. Homely. So, you know, I guess it means you're not like a warm fire and a cup of coffee on a beautiful afternoon in your home. You're cold and unwelcoming is what I assume it means, since it's the opposite of homely. But...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
One of the biggest ones was Russell's shirt had gunpowder on the collar. And this led to the conclusion that obviously cannot be confirmed that he was most likely shot dead. which adds yet another weapon to the mix. He was killed in a different manner than Shirley. Remember, she was hit in the head with a hammer. If they're right about this, he was shot and you have the knife or whatever was used
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
to remove Russell's head, all of which were brought to the crime scene. Now, as I said, it seems like he was decapitated after he was already dead. The cut to his neck was fairly clean. It's often described as very clean, like a very clean cut. But also, sometimes you hear people talking, particularly investigators, and they'll mention a saw or
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I don't know if it's just they're being loose with language or if they actually think that a saw was used to remove his head. If a saw was used, it's going to be somewhat clean, but obviously there's going to be a little bit more raggedness with a saw, I would expect, than a blade. Now, if a knife was used for a clean cut, it's probably a pretty big knife. I mean, this is a pretty big knife.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Whoever brought... would have used to do this because a smaller knife, it's possible to decapitate someone with a smaller knife, but I don't think you're going to see a clean cut if you did that. And obviously the knife was very sharp if a knife was used.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And they knew they were going to do this, or at least they had a pretty good idea because they brought the materials to pull this off. You know, I mean, they brought it wasn't just a pocket knife that they happen to have. They didn't grab a butcher's knife from the kitchen. They brought a large knife or saw that could be used for this purpose.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Now, here's one of the questions, though, that I think immediately springs to everybody's mind. Why? Why do you do this? There are a couple of reasons you might do something like this. You see this sometimes with Jane does that are found. You'll see Jane does that are missing their hands and their head. And it's pretty obvious that whoever did that did it to prevent identification.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Some of the genetic genealogy breakthroughs have been in cases like that. Obviously, we're not trying to prevent identification here. We all know who this is. It's going to be obvious to everyone. So that's not the reason. Some people have speculated that if they shot Russell, which it seems like they did, maybe they did this so that the bullet could not be traced.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
There were no shell casings found in the area. Now, the thing about that, though, if you're worried about the bullet being traced back to a gun, The easier thing to do is just to throw the gun in the lake. It's a much easier thing than removing someone's head to get a bullet, which, by the way, bullets are hard to trace anyway.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So if that is the purpose, either they have some personal attachment to the gun, they really overthought this, or that's not why they did it in the first place.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Obviously, Russell's head has never been found, so it's difficult to confirm. Another thing that happens, though, that also feels like that was a lot of effort when you could have just done something much simpler. Remember the towels? So they set these towels up to prevent the blood from spreading. The towels are from a bathroom in the house. They didn't bring the towels with them.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Baby's already been crying once, so we're going to see. May have to take some breaks.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They're from the house. Why not just move his body? You know, his body is in front of the doors, so you're setting up the towels to prevent the blood from flowing underneath the doors. He's behind the cars. I mean, literally, if you just took him to the front of the garage, you could do this, and the problem of having the blood flowing out through the garage doors would probably be taken care of.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
This makes me wonder a couple things. Number one, it seems like he was very clearly killed where he was found. They didn't take him there. Right. So he wasn't shot somewhere else. And they took him there to do this whole decapitation thing, because if they did that, they would be setting up the problem. They didn't have to solve about the blood. But it also makes you wonder.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
We've been sort of suggesting there's more than one person involved here. But if there was only one. then moving Russell's body would have actually have been really hard. So, for instance, they're going to take, or he or whoever, somebody is taking Shirley with them. You know, if there were enough people there, they could have taken Russell's body, weighed it down, and dumped it too.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
We don't know which one. Yeah, but we'll see. We're going to get through together, so that's what matters. Okay, but we are recording back-to-back. For those of you listening when this comes out, last week.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Or they could have moved his body to somewhere in the basement or in the garage where this danger of the blood flowing out is less likely. But if there's only one person, moving his body might have been really difficult. This is a small thing, but it's just one of those things as you're thinking through, why did everything happen the way it did? Why is everything where it is?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I think it's at least something to consider. Now, another thing to think about, you know, there are a couple of ways you could imagine this happening. Russell, you know, he hears something. He walks out of his bedroom. He's been asleep. Shirley's downstairs. He walks into the carport. Somebody behind him shoots him in the head. He falls down dead. He never knows it's happening.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
That is not what happened because, according to an article on 11 Alive, Russell's hands were bruised and pieces of Shirley's hair were actually interwoven in his wounds. which indicates that he may have been trying to fight off the attacker to protect his wife when he was killed. So he does have defensive wounds. It seems like he was at least near Shirley at some point.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So this did become a bit of a struggle. It seems like in that carport garage area is where this went down. At some point he was shot, and then the attackers had to do the rest. And this may also be an indication that whatever was planned here did go wrong. So they had a plan.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They were prepared for a lot of different things, but it did not go exactly the way they expected because they did have this confrontation with Russell.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
you heard our first episode on the Lake Oconee murders one of the most bizarre cases that we have looked at the murders of Russell and Shirley Dermond and we are getting back into it and hopefully the fact we're doing this back to back will just make this even better this episode is going to be amazing and maybe we can solve it by the end though I'm gonna go out on a limb and say probably not
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
A couple of podcasts that have covered this, if you want more coverage, True Crime Garage did some good episodes on this. So did the Deviant podcast. I really like that podcast. So check that out. But why don't we dive right back in where we left off? So we've been talking about this murder, but we had not yet gotten to the cause of death. So at this point, you have Russell who's been found.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And one thing that's exciting about all this is this all happened in 2024. So this case is 10 years old, but it seems like there's some breaking stuff happening right now. And the DNA stuff, Othram is right on the cutting edge. It seems like they found some DNA that you just wouldn't have been able to find before.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But it also seems like with the current technology, they are not certain they can get a result. And if there's one thing they have said to us, repeatedly it's they will not test the DNA unless they are as certain as you can scientifically be which is never 100% but as close to 100% as you can get that they are going to solve this case because I think there is very little DNA and
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And they know this is a one-shot thing. And when they take that shot, they want to make sure they get something. Now, we don't know for certain. It's the killers you never do. This is touch DNA. It could have been from the cucumber he bought at Publix, right? But this is heartening that maybe they'll be able to find something else soon. So a few things that are interesting about this case.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
We've touched on some of this. As we said, Russell's head was never found, and the police searched hard for it. They were using cadaver dogs to search the area. They drug the lake around the house. They recovered a lawn chair and a Christmas tree, but that is it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And they searched the rest of the lake using some pretty advanced sonar the GBI had that they felt pretty confident would have found something, but they didn't find anything. Now, I'll say this. I'm glad they used it and they might have found something, but the fact that they didn't find anything doesn't tell me the head is not in the lake, for instance.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
His body has been found, but his head has not yet. shirley is found in the lake tied down to some cinder blocks presumably in the hopes that her body would never surface but it did on may seventeenth twenty fourteen investigators release the cause of death for shirley And it is blunt force trauma to the head. Now, I want you to stop for a second and think about what that means.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Like, we know these people brought, seems like it was nets that held the weights. That's another thing that I've never seen officially released, but I've heard people mention netting. was what held the weight. So it seems like they brought that as well. They brought at least two weights. They certainly could have brought three.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And if they weighed down the head, that is not going to float to the surface the way a body would. So it could very well be there or could have been taken away. In any event, they have never found it. Now, one thing that some people have focused on that I think is completely irrelevant, but for the sake of completeness, we'll talk about it. In 2000, so 14 years before this happened,
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Russell and Shirley's eldest son was murdered while buying drugs in Atlanta. Pretty straightforward drug murder. He was buying drugs from a dealer. The dealer tried to rob him. He fought back. He was killed. His killer was very quickly arrested and convicted of the murder, and he was in prison at the time of Shirley and Russell's murder.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Now, of course, some people speculate that there's a connection there, but Russell and Shirley, number one, weren't very close to their son at the time of the murder. He was struggling with these addiction issues. They did not attend the trial, so this is not some sort of big vendetta between them and the dealer. He went to prison, and I'll just tell you, this wasn't a drug murder.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
dealers violent people a lot that's not how this would go down i mean i've i've had defendants who have tried to have people killed before and it wasn't me and it wasn't you know the victims or even the witnesses it was like the guy who turned on them like that is somebody that they might go after they're not going after the elderly parents of somebody who was killed 14 years before
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
That's just not happening. So I think we can rule this out. The police certainly have. But it is something, as I said, it is literally the only thing in these people's entire lives that anybody can point to as a possible reason for a murder. Okay, so as we've said, aside from jokers like us speculating about this case, there's really not a solid theory about what happened.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Sheriff Seals, who is very committed to solving this case, initially he thought it was potentially some sort of botched robbery or an extortion where the Dermans were killed when they couldn't provide the money that was demanded. The problem with that... is, as we said, no signs of forced entry. The house was immaculate. Nothing was taken, not even anything small.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Think back to the Corpsewood Manners murder that we covered. You know, that was a case where some people decided they were going to rob some guys that they thought had a bunch of money. They get into the house. Turns out they don't have a bunch of money. Well, they still stole some stuff, right? It was stupid stuff, but they stole some stuff to try and at least recoup something.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
from the robbery you don't see that here you got no signs of forced entry nothing's missing you know and it is a grand house but it's not like it's the biggest house in the lake and they're by far not the most wealthy people who live on the lake and they're far more expensive houses so it's not even
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
somebody just always saw that beautiful... There's one lake that I know of that has a little island in the middle of it, and there's a mansion on it, and it's obviously the most opulent house on that lake. If you were going to rob a house on a lake, that's the one you'd rob. That was not the situation here, so it doesn't even feel like it would be a random robbery.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Now, as we've said, a really important piece of information in this case is the killer would have had to have access to a boat. Whether... They drove to a boat, or they used the boat to get there. Her body was dumped in pretty much the deepest part of the lake, which absolutely would have required a boat to access, and in fact would have been about a 15-minute boat ride from their dock.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But they didn't own a boat, so it wasn't stolen from them, though they did have access to the lake. Now, I think this probably means that the killer approached by boat, And this could have gone unnoticed, though we talked about boats are allowed. But nevertheless, this house is on sort of secluded corner of a cul-de-sac.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And there's no indication that anyone came through the guardhouse at the main entrance of the community. And of course, there's no guardhouse preventing you from using one of those public boat ramps we talked about before to gain access to the lake.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
We've got a situation where we know a knife was used because Russell's been decapitated, but Shirley is not stabbed. She is hit in the head. And that's how she's killed. This is interesting because it means there are at least two weapons involved in this case. Now, it is certainly possible that you have an intruder who has multiple tools to kill that they've brought with them. That happens.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
but one of the other places your mind automatically goes is two different perpetrators one who has a knife one who has apparently a hammer in fact shirley had multiple head injuries that were inflicted by an object that essentially had a round surface that struck her head that is most likely a hammer. A claw hammer is what is suspected.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
No, I agree. And I think, I mean, really, that's all there is in this case. There's just, you know, there's not a lot of evidence. There's a lot of really strange, bizarre things about this case. I mean, things that your mind can just go running with possibilities of what happened here. But we've come to the conclusion of the evidence. So now I guess we'll get into some theories.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Alice, do you think it maybe it was a mob hit?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I think you're right about that. And the sheriff's talked about how this would be such a what he called a ticket. It's like a big ticket. If you get arrested for something else and you can throw down, I got information on this murder, it would be worth a ton. And yet nobody they've arrested has ever said, hey, I heard this was a hit by such and such. And it is like a movie.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I think that's why people naturally gravitate to it first. And I think it's something you always have to discuss first. But things don't actually tend to happen like they do in the movies. I mean, I feel like if this was actually a hit, they'd have walked in, shot them both, and left. If that was what they were trying to do. They wouldn't have done all this other stuff.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So just your standard sort of hammer you would use to nail a nail into the wall, that is what is suspected to have killed her. She was struck in the head at least twice with a hammer, and it was hard enough that it did cause fractures to her skull. There were no signs of sexual assault, and we know that she was dead when her body was placed in the water, which, you know, if you're looking for...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You know, it does remind me, talking about movies, if you've ever seen Hostile 2, this happens at the beginning of Hostile 2. There's like a guy who has some information. He's hiding out in the middle of nowhere, and one morning his girlfriend wakes up, and all she finds is his body, and he's been decapitated.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
because they took the head to the head of the guy who's running sort of the cartel to prove that he has been killed, right? So your mind immediately goes to that, like that's what they're doing. There are easier ways to do that. You could just take a Polaroid of him. You could cut off his finger.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I mean, you know, taking his head seems like a pretty gruesome and really dangerous way, because that means you've got to carry this head around with you everywhere you go. I mean, the fact that you do this... It is strange.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I just don't think in this circumstance, you know, if you'd found his body on the Mexican border right across the Rio Grande and it turned out, you know, he was selling cocaine. OK, he was the mob. That's who did it. It was the cartel. That's not here. It's not a mob hit. We can cross it out.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
i do want to say sort of one angle on the mob hit that i think you have to at least mention is it's a mistake so they were going to murder someone and do all the things they did but it wasn't supposed to be them it was supposed to be somebody else and you know we've been assuming this person must have been really familiar with the lake because to find a house a specific house on the lake at night
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
is really hard. It is really hard if you are living there and you go out boating and it's gotten dark and you're trying to find your way back. It's hard to find your own house. So maybe they went to the wrong house, busted in, killed him, decapitated him, took the head back to the cartel head.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And he's like, nope, this is why I make you guys take the head because half the time you get it wrong, right? I mean, that's essentially what he'd be saying. The problem with that is, once again, I don't think you would do it this way if it was a mob hit, first thing. And second thing, the police, it wasn't just the Germans that the police were looking into. They were looking at the neighbors.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They were looking at the other people on the lake, I feel like. If there was someone on that lake who was doing the kind of things that would make them the target of this kind of attack, they would have heard about it. They would have heard rumors about it. Something would have come up. Someone would have said, I bet they were trying to get the Johnsons. Everybody knows they're doing shady stuff.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And there's just not been anything like that. So I just this whole crime to me feels messy in a way that I don't think it's both well planned and messy. And I just don't think it's going to be a mob hit. And I also don't think it's a random robbery, which is another possibility. As we said, you're sort of boating around. You see a house. You're like, let's go rob those people. I don't think so.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I mean, number one, random robbers don't tend to do it like this. I'm not going to say they never have, but going in with this kind of intentionality to murder people and dispose of them in the lake and then forget to steal anything. Didn't take the Rolex. Didn't take anything from this house. Nothing of value. It just feels strange. Now, one possibility is
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
any kind of blessings in this case at least they didn't throw her in the water weighted down while she was still alive and they know that because there's no evidence of drowning there's no water in her lungs nothing like that and the hammer blows would have been enough to kill her now she had been in the water for quite some time so there's not going to be anything like time of death.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
is this is a little bit more sophisticated robbery it's a robbery where the person has a specific thing they want and they're going in to get that and for whatever reason they didn't get it you know maybe they thought there was a safe with a million dollars in there you know or maybe they thought you know they could kidnap somebody for extortion And it went a little sideways. There was no safe.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
There was no money. The kidnapping didn't work out. Somebody got killed and they decided to be smart thieves because a smart thief in this circumstance, if they didn't get what they wanted, they wouldn't take anything because the best way to get caught. is to steal something and then try and sell it, right? Like, that is what a bad thief does.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So maybe they're so sophisticated that they decided, well, it's too bad we've had to kill two people, but we're not going to get anything out of this. You know, we're going to go our separate ways. Maybe. But still, that feels like more of a possibility than a random robbery... But I think we can pretty much say random robbery did not happen.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
manner and for what it's worth the sheriff thinks whoever did this is long gone by now yeah and actually disagree with the sheriff i mean i hate to disagree the sheriff who's been working on this for 10 years but actually think he's wrong because i don't think it was a random act of violence i think it's probably somebody who knew them in some form or fashion and i think that probably means someone who either lives in that community or has lived in that community or is very familiar with that community
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Either someone who lives there, the child of someone who lives there, the grandkids of someone who lives there, someone who lives in the town nearby and doesn't live in that community but wishes they did but has voted in that community a lot of times. Somebody who knows the Dermans even if they don't know them. Someone who is familiar with them, who has met them, who has talked to them.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
who has heard rumors about their wealth, you know, something along those lines. I feel like when you look at sort of all the things about this case, the fact that they knew where they were, the fact that it feels so targeted, like this feels targeted in a very specific way, the way they treated her, the way they treated him. You know, it seems like they went in there with an intention.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Now, it could have just been to commit violence. It could have just been they're angry at the world or they're angry at them or they're angry at their own grandparents and they can't do anything about that, but they can attack them or it's some sort of weird obsession or the Dermans offended them in some way that you would never know.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But they have something wrong in their head where that offense was enough to I'm going to kill that person. Right. It's hard to say exactly without knowing who this is, but this whole thing and everything you see makes it feel like this is someone who knew them in some form or fashion.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You're not going to be able to determine that. That is always a fraught thing. Even when you have someone who is found very quickly in a very ordinary circumstance, time of death is more of an art than a science, but you're certainly not going to have it in this case.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Yeah, we really do. And I think just to run through some of them, I mean, jumping on what Alice was saying, when exactly did this happen? And we know they didn't go to the Derby party. So it happened before the Derby. But I think it happened probably the night before, if I had to guess. I think this probably happened Friday night.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I think it was at night, but I actually don't think it was that late because of what Alice is saying, at least when they arrived. Because I feel like the most inconspicuous way to do this is actually to do it the most normal way, to just sort of like go up, show up at the dock. Now, imagine a situation in which these people do know them, even if it's like not that great. And they're an older...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
very friendly couple. I remember once I was driving down the road and I was going too fast. I was in high school. I was going too fast. Cop passes me going the other way. He turns on his lights. I go over a hill and I'm like, well, am I going to stop for this cop? No. So I turned down a side road, right? And as I'm going in the side road, I realized one of my friends lives on this road.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I've never been to her house, but I know where it is. I don't know how I knew where it was, but I knew it was. So I pulled into her driveway and I got out of the car and I went up to the front door and rang the doorbell. And her mom comes to the front door. She's never met me before. She doesn't know who I am. Her daughter is not there. And I was just like, hey, is your daughter around?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
She's like, no. And I was like, oh, and she's like, why don't you come in? And so I went in and like had a Coke while the police are looking for me, presumably. And then was like, all right, see you later. I got back in my car and left. Like that's what people do, right?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So you could imagine a situation in which these people sort of kind of barely know them, show up at the dock and surely not thinking anything of it lets them in or is being nice or offers to, you know, maybe they say, hey, we're having a little bit of boating trouble. We're having a little trouble with the boat. Do you care if we use your phone? We're on the lake.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
We don't have cell phone service, right? Anything like that. And maybe Russell was already in bed and she's downstairs and he hears this and And that's why he gets out and he goes downstairs and that's why the bed's unmade and that's why he's in his bedclothes. It's hard to say. We actually don't know what Charlotte was wearing. I've never seen that.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I've never seen a description of what she was wearing when she was found. But that's just, you know, if you think about when did it happen, I think it also affects how it happened.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we finish our look at the Lake Oconee murders. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my comely co-host, Alice. What? Comely. I am told.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I think the other thing that raises the other issue it raises is.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
who was the target were they both the target was this a targeted murder or was it something else were they trying to get shirley away because i mean if you're thinking sort of through this if it's not just they are going there to murder these two people for whatever reason reasons that we can't even really fathom and that we'll only know if we find these people you know kind of like i keep going back to the corpsewood murders you know those guys had been a little bit
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
more thoughtful in the way they committed that crime. Like for instance, don't bring two random people to the murder. You know, if they had gone in and murdered those guys and gone back to their lives and not really left any evidence behind, we would wonder why did this happen? Was this a robbery?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Was it, you know, we would never know about the personal interactions between the murderers and the two men who lived in that house, right? We wouldn't know that we would think it was just a robbery. Similarly here, until we find out who did it, we probably won't know exactly what happened. Right.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But if you're thinking, is this more monetary than one thing you could easily imagine is this is intended to be some sort of ransom thing. And the idea is they were going to kidnap Shirley. take her out on the lake, murder her, dump the body, and then act like she was alive and seek a ransom. A lot of times, people who are kidnapped for ransom are killed immediately.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
That's one reason people always want proof of life or whatever. That could have been what they were trying to do, and they interrupted, and it didn't work out. They went ahead and killed her, but they decided not to seek the ransom because things had just gotten too crazy. But we don't know that, right?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
We don't, you know, I think initially, if you're thinking the whole mob hit thing, you think Russell is the target. He is the reason they're there. They killed him the way they did because of that. But if you're thinking it's something else, then maybe Shirley's the target and he's actually collateral damage.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I think this person or persons who did this are late teens or in their 20s. I think these are relatively young people. I think they're younger than you might think when you think about the supposed sophistication of the crime, because I actually think you're right. Look, it may turn out this was a botched kidnapping attempt to extort money. I actually think you're right.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I think you're going to be right when they solve this case. I think there's going to be some strange thing going on there between that person or persons And for some reason, they are really focused on the Dermans. It reminds me, and this is going to be really frustrating for everyone who's listening, because I'm about to give you the most vague description possible.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But there was a murder in some Midwestern state. And basically, you had a mother. I think she was either getting divorced or had been divorced or wasn't very close with the husband. The police really focused in on the husband, thought he did it. She had a son as well. It was a brutal attack. She was killed in her kitchen. There was no forced entry. There was none of that stuff.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And they ended up figuring out that, in fact, it was her son's best friend who did it. And her son's best friend had like her son. They had a great family. He had a great life. Everything was wonderful. She was incredibly kind to the best friend's son to the point that he saw her as almost a mother figure. His family was completely broken. His father was abusive. His mother didn't care about him.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
The only person in the world who cared about him was this woman. And he murdered her. And in almost a very similar way to this, it was a very violent, bloody crime. And they eventually realized it was him. And there's just no real reason for it, you know, because how do you figure out somebody's mind like that?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
The weird thing about this case, I think there are several things that point to that there may be more than one person. The fact that you have arguably three weapons, the gun, the knife, the hammer. Now, I think the knife could be something that someone with a hammer or with a gun would also have. The fact that you're decapitating Russell, that's going to take some time and effort.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Something is happening to Shirley at that time. She is being controlled somehow. Either she's been tied up or someone is holding her while this is going on. That to me, all these things sort of indicate maybe this is more than one person who was involved in this.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Even the taking someone out and tying them up with the cinder blocks and dumping them seems like it would be easier if you had two people. Now, a couple of things, as we've said, was this always the plan? I mean, they brought the cinder blocks. They brought the paracord. They brought the knife. did they always intend to dump Cheryl? And if they did, why didn't they dump Russell?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Why do the decapitation? If the whole point is you believe that you're going to hide Shirley's body forever, if that's what you think is going to happen, Why not do the same thing to Russell?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Like, even if you're worried about the bullet, if you believe that doing this is going to dispose of the body forever, isn't that an easier way to do it than to spend all that time decapitating him, setting up the towels? I mean, just all the time you're spending in that home. And I feel like, once again, that points to some sort of connection.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You know, we talk about this all the time with murders. The more time people spend with the victims...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
doing things to conceal the crime the more likely there is some connection because otherwise you just kill him and get out like we're talking about the mobster the mob hitman walks in kills him and leaves you know and it's over and he's done and they'll never find him again right so things like that i don't know i mean there's so many strange questions left unanswered in this case
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I do hope it's solved. I think there's a really high likelihood it will be solved. I think the DNA evidence could be critical. I'm hoping that there will be new developments in DNA that will allow them to test that, and if nothing else, at least really limit the pool of suspects. If you have any information about the case, it's not too late. This is not a cold case. It's a hot case.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
In fact, it's probably hotter right now than it has been at any point in the last 10 years. Call the FBI's Atlanta field office at 770-
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
two one six three thousand or the putnam county sheriff's office at seven zero six four eight five eight five five seven if you know anything let us know if like i said what can we always say if you'd rather talk to us talk to us but if there's more than one person involved i gotta think somebody knows something i don't think both people could have kept silent i don't know that one person could keep silent about something like this but i gotta feel like somebody knows something
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Well, look, thank you guys for joining us. We've already mentioned two podcasts that talk about this. One I definitely want to mention is Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum, not for least of which, because we were on the show. So if you just can't get enough of us talking about this case, that is another show you can listen to. And she's always great. And she's from Georgia and she has a lot of insight.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
If you have thoughts about this case, shoot us an email at prosecutorspod at gmail.com at prosecutorspod for all your social media. Join Patreon, watch these episodes live or get them early and ad free. And we'd love to see you on the gallery discussing this case and all the rest. Well, we've gone a little long tonight and Alice has to get to her beautiful baby boy.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So we're not going to have any questions. We'll do one next week to make it up to you. Don't know what we'll be doing next week. Haven't decided yet. We're a little discombobulated with this whole like getting back in the swing of things.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Who knows? I'll just make it up. We got a really interesting one for you next week. So make sure you come back. It's a great mystery. You're going to love it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Such a mystery. Total mystery. Okay, guys. Well, thank you again. Thank you for recommending this case. Many of you did. It was always under radar, but I'm going to give you guys credit anyway. You've asked us to cover this case. I'm glad we did. All right, guys. We will see you next week. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are The Prosecutors. It is Brett that's crying.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And look, I think you're right about that, and I think there's even more to it. Because it feels like, given the preparation that the killer or killers undertook, the fact that they brought things with them that seem to have only one purpose, and that's to kill and conceal a body. And it makes you feel like this wasn't accidental.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I can't remember what I called you last night. What did I call you?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
No, I called you something, but I can't remember. I don't know. It was something related to the fact that you had been gone for a while. I have a new one.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And TV fans like me. They've got something for everyone. And it's totally free. You can binge laugh-out-loud sitcoms like Frasier.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So you could imagine a circumstance in which, like you said, somebody spooks you, there's a hammer sitting on the table, you grab it, you swing around, and you hit them in the head, and then you hit them again, and then they're dead, and you didn't even mean to kill them, right? Like, you could imagine that happening, like in a robbery gone wrong. But here's something that I think is interesting.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Now, we don't know everything about this case. You know, people always ask us questions about these open cases because...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
your minds are running and you're thinking of facts and you're wanting to know details that a lot of times we don't know because all we know is what either the police have told us, what has come out through sort of rumor or what has slipped in the many interviews that have been done with people who are involved in this case.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But one thing that seems to be clear based on everyone's description of the scene is there is no evidence that Shirley was killed in that home. Now think about this. She's being struck in the head with a hammer. Not certain, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's blood involved.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Ordinarily, as we've talked about a lot of times, being hit in the head, certainly in a way that is hard enough to fracture the skull, is probably going to also break the skin and head wounds bleed a lot. There is no evidence that she was struck in the home. Now, maybe she was struck and it just didn't leave any evidence. And there's no evidence of a struggle because it happened so quickly.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But it feels like this happened somewhere else, which means it most likely was intentional. It wasn't done accidentally because someone was spooked. Someone decided to take a hammer and use it to kill Shirley. And it was a hammer. that apparently they brought with them. So that makes you feel like this was always the intended way they were going to murder this woman.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So, obviously, this was an all-hands-on-deck case, and the Putnam County Sheriff's Department, unlike some law enforcement agencies you'll see, they accepted all the help they could get. They're working with the FBI. They're working with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. Everybody to comb through the Dermons' life.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Because as we've said, and you think about victimology, trying to figure out what was going on around someone's life right before they're killed, if it's not a random act of violence, then you would expect to see something that gives you some sign.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They're going through years worth of phone records, bank records, looking for anything unusual, and they don't find a single thing that stands out to them. There are a lot of security cameras. on the boat docks, on the gates, at the home. They had a security system. It was off at the time. The batteries were dead.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You know, we talk about there have been other cases where home security systems and cameras have been a part of it and the batteries were dead. And people were like, that's so suspicious. How convenient reality is. If you have a camera system that requires batteries, they're going to work probably as long as the batteries do. And then you're going to forget to replace them.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So this is just not that surprising. They check all these boat docks. Most of them are aimed at the dock, basically to make sure no one steals the boat. They're not looking out over the water in a way that would be helpful. The cameras on the gates at the gated part of the community didn't work.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And as law enforcement is thinking more and more about Shirley and where her body was found, the fact that the Dermons did not own a boat means whoever did that had to use their own boat. And it's unlikely that they would have taken her body or taken her in a vehicle, driven somewhere to a boat, taken the boat down the boat ramp and then taken her body to dump it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
The most likely, most logical thing is they arrived in a boat. They took her off in a boat. They dumped her and then they left on one of those public boat ramps. that we talked about. But looking at all the various things you could think of to try and pinpoint who this was, they all are just dead ends. None of them are giving them any information on the murders.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They're either not working at the time of the murders or they just don't show anything. And there was nothing that anyone could identify in the couple's past that would have made them the target of this kind of crime.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You know, there's no shady business deals with the mob or they're secretly cocaine traffickers working with the Mexican cartel or they're KGB agents who've been relocated to the United States. Like there's no matter where your mind goes, there's just no evidence.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They seem to just be 80 something year old grandparents retiring on the lake and the sunset of life who all of a sudden are a target for an incredibly heinous crime.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And Alice is so right about this because I don't care how idyllic your life is, if you were the victim of something like this, the second thing you're going to be victimized by are rumors. And everything you ever did and every fight you ever had and every time somebody got mad because you took their pew at the church is going to come up and the police are going to hear about it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And the police in this case conducted hundreds of interviews. They talked to basically everybody who'd ever known the Dermans, everybody in the area, everybody in the community, everybody who worked with them. Everybody who even might have something against them. And what we are told is there was nothing in those interviews that led to even issues in their lives, much less a suspect.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Tips were coming in. They had put out a reward, but they all were dead ends. But that's not to say that they weren't beginning to learn things. And some of the things they were learning were coming from the bodies themselves. Now, we talked about Shirley and her cause of death. Well, Russell, when the police found Russell's body.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Obviously, he had been decapitated, but there was something strange about it. Yes, there was blood, and the towels had been set up to make sure that blood didn't leave the garage, but there was nowhere near as much blood as you would expect for a decapitation. Certainly, there wasn't the kind of arterial spray and gruesomeness.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
For weeks now, New Jersey residents have been plagued by unexplained drones flying overhead. Is there intelligent alien life? And if so, has the government been covering it up?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I'll just say this before I read what he says. If you watch this ABC thing and you watch various other things, Geraldo had a special on Satanism because, of course, he did. There essentially were three different levels of this that police were concerned about. One was what you might consider sort of a worldwide underground satanic cult.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So think like adrenochrome now, think like the Illuminati, you know, like every time Beyonce, you know, puts her hands up, she's signaling some satanic thing. Like everybody in government's a Satanist. Like this was sort of the top level of this. And that was something people believed in. And there was an interconnected group, right? So big conspiracy, right?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Then, though, there were the sort of self-styled Satanists, these local groups, which is kind of what we're talking about here, where you would have unconnected groups of people who were dabbling in this stuff really as an excuse to do other things. And then you would have basically just one-off people who believe they were Satanists and did bad things. Right.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
i think it's pretty clear we're going to talk about this a little bit that the bottom exists like there are people who consider themselves to be like the son of sam or whatever and who are involved in criminality because they want to be evil right the other two is where you really get into a lot of questions so it's worth noting in west memphis they're not saying this is part of the global elite satanic cult they're saying self-styled group small group people who are doing this
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So why does Jerry Driver believe that Damien's involved in this? Well, this goes back to that arrest. And we talked about this before, but I want to read this to you just just to remind you of what all was said. So, yes. And so he's being interviewed in relation to this case. And he's talking about how he came to believe that Damien was involved in this kind of stuff. Yes, that is correct.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
About the 29th of May, 1992, I received a call from the Crittenden County Sheriff's Office that Mr. Echols had been arrested along with Deanna Holcomb at a trailer down in Lakeshore Trailer Park. He was charged with burglary and let's see, sexual misconduct. I went to the sheriff's office and along with Detective John Murray, questioned Mr. Echols at the time.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Mr. Echols said to both of us that he was involved in the occult. but not as a devil worshiper as such. He said he was a gray witch. And then he had a group of people that participated in this with him, and that his main participant was a boy named Jason Baldwin, who also lived at Lakeshore.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Just real quick, the gray witch, I don't know how much of this is true, how much of this Damien actually said. The gray witch thing is something that Damien has said before and has written down before, and Deanna Holcomb talked about, so I could see him saying something like that. Damon would talk about he doesn't want to be in the light or the dark. He wants to be somewhere in the middle.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So this sort of fits with that. Not mentioning Jason Baldwin. He also informed me at the time that Jason would never ever give him up and that he loved him. During the same interview with Mr. Echols, he was asked, what was the extent of the cult activities in Crittenden County in the West Memphis area?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And he told us that it was fairly extensive, that there were three or four groups in West Memphis itself. They were further along in their activities than he may or may not have been. And by that, he said he meant that they had reached the end of their animal sacrifice portion to receive power, and that the next logical step would be to sacrifice a human.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So, giving you the background of where we are with the Satanic Panic, what police officers are thinking, what West Memphis has already been primed to believe, you can imagine, they hear something like that, now they're like, oh my goodness, what in the world is going on? We clearly have this massive issue. And we said before, you know, is Damien just pulling his chain or is this real or whatever?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
We kind of left it there. Well, now I'm going to tell you that he is almost certainly, certainly pulling his chain. He goes on to tell him that this book has come to West Memphis, a grimoire of great power. The Necronomicon. Now, the Necronomicon, for those of you who don't know, is a book created by H.P.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Lovecraft that is supposedly the book of the dead, the book of dead names, the book for naming the dead, depending on how you interpret it. And it's not real. Now, there have been people who have written books called the Necronomicon, but the Necronomicon itself is not real. Now, Jerry Driver wouldn't have known anything about the Necronomicon. but Damien Nichols almost certainly would.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And he's very clearly just being a punk kid with this gullible officer and selling him this line about the Necronomicon. One thing, I also appreciate this. It's the only cool thing about Yale. I don't know if they still do this or not, but it used to be. So the Necronomicon is the Latin translation of the Al-Azif by Abdul Alhazred. And the original was written in, oh God, why am I losing my mind?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Arabic. The original was in Arabic. It was translated into Latin. The Latin translations were in a few different places. So there was one in Cambridge. There was one at Harvard. There was one at Yale. But they've all been lost, of course. Yale, for the longest time, had an entry for the original Latin Necronomicon and had it as checked out. So it was always checked out. So you never get it.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It was just a fun little thing that Yale did.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Like in like 1910 or something. It was like forever.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Al-Azif, by the way, is the sound that insects make in the night in the desert, which I think is great. Supposedly drives you insane. This is a long aside to say that there was no Necronomicon. If it wasn't at Yale, it probably wasn't in West Memphis. And this just goes to show you what Damien was doing. Now, the fact that Damien is putting on the police is,
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
That is relevant for the case. But it also just the fact that he did that pushed these guys so far down this path in May of 1992 that a year later, when these murders happen, they're ready to believe it is some sort of satanic ritual. And at this point, Dale Griffiths, who will eventually testify, he actually gets brought in. He becomes like a consultant.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
i'm gonna talk a lot about satan i may talk about satan for two episodes if we do that we'll release the second episode on wednesday though we'll yeah we'll just do one week on satan too much satan in your life you know he wants too much this isn't an exorcism case so no it's not it's not this is the most i'll probably ever talk about satan though you know this would have been perfect for october we couldn't fit the whole series in one month i
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
for the West Memphis police as they are trying to sort of nail down this satanic cult that they believe is operating in their area and that is going to commit a human sacrifice sometime in the near future.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I mean, they're the ones who dealt with Damien. I think Jerry Driver had spoken to Damien like 20 times in the last year. And he would ask him about all this cult stuff and how the cult stuff is going because he was really interested in that. And you can imagine Damien would egg him on. Now, look, Damien was clearly, he was interested in alternative religions. He was interested in Wicca.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
You know, he might have been interested in Satanism and sort of the actual religion of Satanism, which started, I think, in the 60s and is more like this sort of hippie do whatever you want thing than it is worshiping the devil. It's an atheist religion that we believe in the devil. Right. He probably did look into that and all that sort of other stuff. Right.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But frankly, what he was doing wasn't all that unusual. I certainly knew people who did that in high school who were into that whole thing. I knew somebody who had the Satanic Bible and carried around was written by Anton LaVey, who was the founder of modern Satanism. I hung out with everybody in high school. I remember when Columbine happened.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I had to go to the office because I was friends with all the people who wore trench coats. Because there were people who wore trench coats. I guess it was just true of every high school. There was just a group of people who wore trench coats. So, of course, Columbine happens. If you wore a trench coat, you were getting looked into. So I was friends, everybody. I was friends with the Satanist.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
No, I think that's absolutely true. You know, this case sits sort of at the tail end of the satanic panic, what is often called the satanic panic, which is a really interesting period in American history. If you're interested in this, there's a great podcast called Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. It's actually in the middle of releasing it. So they've got like five episodes out now.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I was in the Christian club. So I knew all these people right in my in my area. And there certainly were people who probably weren't that different from Damien. And if we'd had some really weird murder, maybe they would have ended up being investigated. But. You have the police, you have these juvenile officers who are interested in this, and they're sort of pushing it.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It's never clear to me, frankly, that like Gary Gitchell ever believed in this whole Satanism thing. And in fact, he has made statements and made statements at the time that he didn't think this was a cult killing. But as the police are investigating, they continue to hear things.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
that are going to lead to the prosecution's use of this sort of occult activity as a possible motive, particularly in Damien and Jason's trial. And you've got to remember, this is a bifurcated trial. So you've got Damien and Jason are tried. And then you've got Jesse Miskelly, who's going to be tried by himself. The reason for that is because Jesse Miskelly confessed.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He made statements which implicated his co-defendants. He cannot be forced to testify. That's his right. So the Supreme Court has said in a case called Bruton that when you have that, you've got to figure something out. One way to do it, and we've talked about this before, is you can actually have two juries testify.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
You can try everybody together, but you have two juries, and you bring the juries in and out. And when Jesse's confession was discussed, Jesse's jury would be the only one in the room, for instance. They didn't do that. They bifurcated the trial. So in Jesse's trial, you've got his own words. You've got his own statements. You've got his confession. A pretty standard sort of murder trial.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But then once you get to Jason and Damien's, unless Jesse's willing to testify, you can't bring that statement in. Because they need to be able to confront their accuser in this case, Jesse Miskelly. So Jesse can testify and he can say everything he said in his confession. But unless he does that, it doesn't come in.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So the police and the prosecutors have to get a little bit more creative in that second trial. And one thing they focus on a lot more is the motivation, why this happened. And that's when they start talking about Satanism. That's when Dale Griffiths testifies is in Damien and Jason's trial.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And so the stuff we're going to talk about now is sort of the things that happened during the investigation that I think would have justified that in the mind of the police. We'll start off with where the bodies were found. And we talked about this a little bit in the beginning. The area where the bodies were discovered was whispered to be one of these places where cults would gather.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Kathy Myrick reported that a resident of Mayfair, a member of the Mayfair Apartments right next to this area, told her that Robin Hood was a place of devil worshiping. And this was supported by other residents who spoke to the police, though they never offered specifics because that's the way this always goes. This is rumor. It's the things that are heard. It's things that are spreading.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And now all of a sudden everybody has a story about all the dark things that happen in the place where three young boys have just been found murdered. And you can appreciate how that happens and why it happens. Multiple Mayfair complex residents, including Laurie Sparles and Lynette Thomas, said there were devil worshippers in the woods, and they had seen one with black hair and one with red hair.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
The first episode is actually about the West Memphis Three. Now, they totally just go with the standard. The three are innocent. It was satanic panic. The show is really about the satanic panic and how it came to be. So it's worth listening to if you're interested in that. Probably won't learn much about West Memphis Three, but it's a really interesting podcast. You can check that out.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, why is this interesting? Because Domini, who is Damien's girlfriend, had red hair. It was like her most defining trait. And then Damien, of course, had black hair. Now, Not exactly the most solid identification, but you can imagine how in the mind of the police this would have been significant.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And the police also spoke to a woman named Sheila Stewart, whose husband found sacrificed animals in Robinson. Now, what does it mean, sacrificed animals? I don't know. That's how she describes it. As Alice said, animals die. And sometimes animals die in violent ways. And maybe if you came upon them, you would say, oh, the animal's been sacrificed.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Especially if you're already primed to believe the area where you find the animal is an area with devil worshipers.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And this is one of those things that if you're learning about this case now, it is difficult to sort of wrap your head around what was going on. in the country at this time.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah, and that's where everybody was. And Sheila, she didn't stop at Dead End. Well, she also said that at night she could smell smoke and hear chanting, strange music at night. Now, probably they were like kids listening to rock music and smoking pot. Down in the woods. And that's what she was hearing is chanting.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But nevertheless, you know, in her mind, you know, there is a satanic ritual going on down there in Robin Hood. And she's going to report it to the police. And as I said, there were just a lot of people. Deborah O. Tinker, who was another person who was interviewed. She would testify that there had always been talk of satanic activities in the woods in Robin Hood where these boys were found.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, these people, obviously, these are some interesting stories. They got nothing, though, on Alvis Clem Bly.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I think it's worth looking at because it puts everything into context, why the police were doing the things they were doing, why certain things that Damien said were taken seriously, even if they shouldn't have been, and sort of what informed the process that happened in the investigation.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I'll say this about Bly. He either had seen something or he had quite the imagination. You've already seen some of the stuff he said, but he keeps going. I mean, this is this is available in Callahan. This is a wild read. And I'll just say, you know, when we started this.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I think it's worth looking into whether or not you think Satanism actually played any role in this case or not. This case is often described as part of the Satanic Panic, and it either very much was, or there was some weird stuff going on in West Memphis, or maybe both. Probably gonna land a little bit on the maybe both. But okay, so what do we mean by the Satanic Panic?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I just assumed that the whole satanic panic thing, it was just, satanic panic's going on, Damien's weird, there's probably some devil worshippers, and that's how they came up with it. And then you start reading this stuff, and you find stuff like this, and it's just like, wow.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
What do you do with this, if you're the police?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
this is intense right you mentioned odinism and that was the criticism right in the richard allen case is the police didn't look hard enough into odinism like why didn't they look harder at this right even though they did and there are a couple cops who did look into that but you know the main bulk of the police looking into those murders were not actually thinking this is odinist they thought that was absurd but the defense is like why do you look into this more and so here you know you have this guy coming in and telling them this stuff
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I'll just continue. This is how he describes the ritual that he witnessed as a part of this cult meeting. We would hang the dog up above that. And then we would cut his throat, the first thing. And we would catch the blood in a pail. And then we drink a cup full, a piece, each of us, of the blood. And then we would cut his head off. Then we would cut him open and cut his heart out.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
We would put the heart in the middle of this and pour alcohol on it mixed with baby oil. I mean, like these details are just so weird, right? Anyways, and they would put his heart. We had a pie pan that we would set in the center of this, which he's talking about the pentagram.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
In the center of this, which is the same thing I'm talking, you know, we got the blood in and then we would put the baby oil on the heart and, you know, burn it. It would burn up, but it would burn it. And we would praise to the devil and stuff. I mean, yeah. I mean, I'm just trying to imagine if you're the police and you're sitting there listening to this guy describe this and he keeps going.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
You know, where's the baby oil come in? Is baby oil flammable? I guess that's how you make candles, apparently. Can you light baby oil? Yeah, that's a good point.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I mean, just... But he said no... This is so detailed. This is like wild. I know. This is wild. Anyways, sorry.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Let's start with the history of the Satanic Panic in America, and in short, blame Canada. Probably didn't expect that, but... The Satanic Panic is often said to have begun with the publication of Michelle Remembers, which is a book chronicling the recovered memories of Michelle Smith, a Canadian woman from Victoria, British Columbia.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Hey, maybe the West Memphis Library did have the Necronomicon.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Remember, this is the same library that Hutchinson went to to get her books to put on the coffee table. So Damien would think she was also into Satanism. I mean, this is the most well-read library in the South at this time, I'm going to say. Vanderbilt, their library had nothing on West Memphis Public Library.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah, I think I would have trusted this one. Yeah. It said he was lying. I think I would have bought that. I mean, look, this is fascinating and really interesting. I think all of us sitting here listening to this, we not being in the midst of the satanic panic. The guy is clearly trying to get off from the rape charge. Right. He's raped his stepdaughter. He's looking at a lot of time.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I think he would have known. He knows his way around the system. He would have known if he just goes in and says, oh, yeah, Damien's in a cult. And so is Jesse Miskelly. You notice this is right after the confession, right? What does everybody know? Everybody knows that Jesse Miskelly confessed. Who's the head of the cult in his telling? Jesse Miskelly, right? Not surprising.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And he also throws in Damien's name. He throws in Jason's name. It's going around the jail cells just like everywhere else. He is a storyteller. The stuff he talks about is wild. And you wonder also how much of the facts of the crime have also gotten around the jail. Because several of the things he says are consistent. Like that the boys were beaten to death. They were beaten to death.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And this is one of the first instances where recovered memory therapy is used. And sort of using hypnosis, Smith was able to recall that in 1955, she had been subjected to sexual abuse during a ritual that had summoned Satan himself.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
One of the boys has very serious injuries to his genitalia. That's consistent with what he's saying. So he clearly... He has some information, but I don't think it's because he was in a cult. I think it's because he's heard things going around. But once again, you can imagine what the police heard when they heard the story.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Though it seems like even the police, he went too far because they never did polygraph him. And this sort of just dies away. But he is not the only one who talks about occult rituals at Stonehenge, which is always two words when they write this up. It's always two words. They don't write it as Stonehenge. H-I-N-G-E, so...
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Exactly. There you go. If you're looking for a cultist in your area, you can go to Stonehenge. This is like an old cotton gin. It's like an abandoned cotton gin. It reminds me. So it's super creepy. You know, there's all these like pentagrams and everything else. It reminds me in Tuscaloosa. I've told this story before. Tuscaloosa is famous for its insane asylums.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And one of them is called Old Bryce. And Old Bryce was the place that you went to in the middle of the night to scare yourself. It was completely abandoned. It had caught on fire. It was gutted. It was overgrown, everything. But what was funny about it, there is a Bryce Hospital that is very old.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
This was actually the newest of the buildings, but it was just one that had closed and had kind of fallen into disrepair. So it was the one that got the reputation as being this sort of really creepy place, right? And I feel like Stonehenge is the same way. It looks creepy, but it's just because it's this like abandoned building. So it has this sort of creepiness about it.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And so everybody was talking about how this was a place where rituals happened. And some of them were a little bit closer to the trio than this Bly fellow. So Dennis Carter, who described himself as a good friend of Jesse's and said he had known him all his life.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
said that he had heard of rituals happening at Stonehenge that involved sacrificing dogs by decapitating them, which is exactly what Bly said. Gotta just wonder how far this story is sort of circulating. Six months before the murder, Jesse had told Dennis that Damien was a devil worshiper that killed dogs as part of his rituals, which confirmed for Dennis what he had already heard.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And Dennis had heard that cult members would also eat part of the dogs after decapitating them, specifically the meat off the legs. This is something that Jesse had also said in his various confessions about eating the meat off the legs.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
We talked about this when we did the exorcism of Annalise Michelle case, where if you're into demonology or even just familiar with religion in any way, you know, there's all these sort of lesser angels and lesser demons. But in these cases, it's always safe.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And just to confirm what I was saying earlier, Dennis stated that in the woods around West Memphis, that he had often seen satanic or KKK symbols carved in the trees. I'm telling you, I don't know why.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But in the South at this time, there was this linkage between the Ku Klux Klan, which for those in the other country is this white supremacist like domestic terrorist group in the United States and satanic cults for some reason. I'm not sure why. But you see Dennis Carter saying the same thing in describing what he had heard from Jesse.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And this is a story the police probably took a little bit more seriously than Blythe's.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
he is not the last person they interview they also interview a 16 year old named ricky climber now ricky said that he had joined the cult at around 10 because he just wanted something to belong to interestingly ricky referred to damien as michael which was his given name so sort of uh makes you think maybe this there's something to this
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Ricky said that Damien, Jason and Jesse were members of the same cult as him. And he said that they would perform rituals in the woods that included animal sacrifices, including cats and dogs. He said they would cook these animals after they sacrificed them and they would eat the meat of the animals and it made them feel powerful.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah, exactly. Otherwise, we're just cooking out. That's all we're doing. We're choosing to eat dogs. But they would do that. They would eat the dogs. It made them feel powerful. He also said that they would rape people and that they even jumped a cop once.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And you see how this reminds me of the McMartin cult thing, right? Like it starts off...
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
sort of simple but terrible and it gets more and more complex and all of a sudden you have tunnels underneath the school and you have walker texas ranger is like part of it i mean you know just in the same thing here you know he just get he escalates oh we'd sacrifice animals need them oh we would rape people we even attacked a cop once obviously if they had all the worst things you can possibly do on a list you know yeah exactly
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He said they would paint pentagrams and carve them into trees. He said drugs were often consumed at these events. Everything from huffing gasoline and paint to smoking marijuana, doing cocaine and LSD. Now, as Alice pointed out, Ricky was pretty young when he was doing all this. He said he left the group when he was 14 and that at that time it was getting more and more violent.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Exactly. Couldn't just have been like, you know, Mephistopheles or something. Satan.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Straight to Satan. And this began, this was the first instance of something that came to be known as Satan.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
satanic ritual abuse which was this idea that there were these satanic rituals going on and people were being abused sexually physically as part of them up to and including human sacrifices including sacrifices of children and at times there would be statistics that tens of thousands of children had disappeared across the united states and canada they were part of what was going on with this whole thing and so during this ritual
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah. And he did not testify. We'll make that clear. And a lot of these people didn't testify. This file is deep and it contains a lot of crazy stories. And this is one of them and the police, but they're talking to all these people and they're getting all this information, much of, much of it.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I mean, some of it, this whole, it makes you wonder, you know, Damien is accused at one point of beating a great Dane to death and basically scalding, you know, the fur and everything off for the skull. And that story seems like it may be true.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And it makes you wonder if like that somehow got transposed into Damien sacrificing a dog and eating the meat or something, because so many people say that clearly that's a story that's out there. Right. That this had happened at some point, whether it had or not. So police also interviewed 18-year-old Shane Divelbiss. You'll remember him from before.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
While Damien and Deanna Holcomb were dating, Shane and Deanna had begun to talk. And when Damien and Deanna broke up, Shane and Deanna started dating. Deanna told Shane that Damien had forced her to have sex in a circle of candles surrounded by other people. She also told him that Damien had proclaimed himself to be the son of Satan. Deanna, you know, she testifies in the trial.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Doesn't testify to any of this. You know, none of this comes up. It's all about some of the other stuff. And Deanne would be someone who'd be interesting to talk to. I would like to talk to her just because so much of what we know about Damien comes from Deanne. Deanne says so many things about Damien and his involvement in various cults and everything else. And it's just interesting.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So, she tells him this story. Now, Divobus will say that Damien had threatened to kill him, and one day at school, and we've heard about this, threw him to the ground and clawed at his eyes until someone pulled him off. It was so bad that when Shane went missing for a day on February 3rd, 1993, police were immediately suspicious that Damien had murdered him. He had not. And Shane showed up.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But it hadn't always been that way. At first, Damien and Shane were actually close friends. He described Damien as an imposing figure with his friends, one who could silence them with a glance. He said Damien was manipulative and he could convince people to do anything.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
multiple children and adults had been sacrificed. So she was sexually abused, Satan appeared, and there was human sacrifice on a grand scale. The ritual lasted 81 days, which is wild. So this book is released, Michelle remembers, and it was an absolute sensation. She toured the world. She visited the Vatican. She appears on the Oprah Winfrey show twice. Everything, right? Just all over the place.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah, and this Lucifer guy comes up all the time. They call him Lucy for short. A bunch of people mention Lucifer, and they all describe him as this sort of tall, blonde-headed, older guy who was sort of the head of this cult. But nobody ever knows who this guy is or identifies him or what. So whether he existed or not, probably didn't, but who knows? So that's Lucy.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
so we talked about nairns he was 18 and he was on the police radar after a teacher at the local high school wrote gary gitchell that nairns fit the profile to a t of the person who would commit these murders he was familiar with the area and he had been known to go to the robin hood's woods police took nairn's hair prints and pubic hair as part of their investigation they also polygraphed him but he passed and as we know
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
When you passed a polygraph in the West Memphis Three case, that pretty much meant you were good to go. Then, of course, there's Damien's prior girlfriend and possibly the person who introduced him to Satanism, as we've talked about, Deanne Holcomb. Now, she was the girlfriend of Damien's in 1992. In May of 1992, they ran away together after Deanne's parents forbade her from seeing Damien.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
They are arrested in a vacant mobile home in Lakeshore, and Echols was charged with burglary, breaking and entering, disorderly conduct, sexual misconduct, and terroristic threatening. I think the terroristic threatening was when he threatened to burn down Deanne's house, but whatever. So at that point, Damien was institutionalized, as we talked about.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He was in and out of mental institutions really throughout the year of 1992 and into 1993. I think he was in three separate times. And at this point, Deanne and he broke up.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
You know, I would be interested to know what B movies were floating around in the early 90s that could have influenced this.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And the psychiatrist who conducted the hypnosis was a man named Lawrence Pazder. And he actually would end up marrying Michelle. It was not known when this started that they were in a sexual relationship. And in fact, he had left his wife for her. But, you know, background information like that matters. So he became an international expert on satanic ritual abuse.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
What's interesting is there is a alternative theory in this case that the boys were killed in the sewers and hidden beneath the manholes and And that's why the bodies were found and they were moved later on. It's a stupid theory. I'm not saying it's a good theory, but it sort of goes with this whole idea about Damien and his manhole covers.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Like I said, let's talk to Deanne. Maybe we'll get to talk to Deanne. That would be cool. So Deanne said she was a black witch. She went on to say that Damien would lie and say he wasn't into white magic, but he was actually into black magic. And she noted that Damien would never hurt himself because he loved himself too much.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, as we've noted, police certainly investigated this satanic angle, and what they heard was seeming to confirm it for them. They were told that creek banks where land and water meet is a sacred space for the occult.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
They were told that sacrifices would be bound, that body parts would be missing, with those parts often being genitalia, and the sacrifice would be nude because cults prefer to perform their rituals sky-clad. Police were also told that the age of the victims was significant as eight is the witch's number. So, you know, once again. How about six? You know, that's what I thought too.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But apparently you're stereotyping witches as satanic.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Maybe it is six. I don't know. But they were told it was eight. And that's the thing. Like, whether it was six or not.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah. If the boys had been six, the number would have been six.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So, you know, it's interesting because the whole 666 on the side of Damien Nichols' shoes. In fact, it was LG Hollingsworth was the one who had shoes with 666 on the side of them. And you may recall LG Hollingsworth is a popular alternative suspect. So a little crossing of Damien and LG Hollingsworth there. So.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And he was someone who would be hired as a consultant around the country when these cases arose. And as her story got out and various other stories are starting to be spread across the country, you start seeing these accusations that various people are involved in some sort of satanic cult activity.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
One of the experts and the final expert we're going to talk about today that the police talked to was Damien himself. As I said, Damien spoke to the police a lot about what was going on in West Memphis and sort of fed them this story about satanic rituals. He explained, as everyone said he would. that he was a white witch and that he did not participate in black magic.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Listen to the Ancient Aliens podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
The police went to Damien's home all the way back in May of 1992, because remember, that's when he first had those interactions with the police. And this was related to breaking into that trailer. And when they searched his home, they found a dog skull. And this is the one everyone talks about, the Great Dane dog skull, as well as a book from a funeral home with spells written on it.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
They also found a picture of a man with a goat's head standing on an elevated platform with people bowing before him. Damien told police that the penis was the symbol of power and that water is a symbol of dark power, which I'd never heard. No, you know. I don't claim to be some expert on the occult, but water typically is like a boundary force.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So like witches can't cross running water, for instance. So like if you've seen the Headless Horseman, the Ichabod Crane, the cartoon, Disney cartoon from like the 40s or whatever. You know, once Ichabod crosses the bridge, my friend, the ghost is through. His power ends because he can't cross the running water. The water's a boundary farm.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So I don't know where Damien got this, but I think he's probably wrong about it. But nevertheless, that's what he says. He's saying to the police, like, oh, water. You know, of course, the crimes are committed on a creek bank. Damien also told police that it was significant that there were three victims as three was a number of power, like the Trinity, I guess.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He also told police he was a member of Murray Ferris and Chris Luttrell's coven, which is consistent with Chris Luttrell and Murray Ferris saying that Damien had been to a couple of the meetings that they had, but it didn't really work out. So for what it's worth, the Wednesday was the full moon, as we said before, and it was the first full moon after May 1st.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
This goes back to what Deanna said about May being an important month. It's actually the most important month in Wicca or Satanism or whatever you want to say, whatever you want to call it, because April 31st to May 1st is Valpurgis Night, which and the Beltane. And this is the most sacred day of the Wiccan calendar.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Just going back to Disney, if you've seen Fantasia, the night on Bald Mountain is Walpurgisnacht. So that's like what's happening there is, you know, all the great evils are rising on that night. And then when the sun comes out, they all have to go back. But that night is like the witch's Sabbath. If you've read Faust, um, Faust has a whole thing about Valpurgisnacht. And very important.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So Pazder was hired as a consultant on the McMartin preschool investigation, which culminated in accusations that 360 children had been abused sexually and physically, as well as mentally, for years as part of a number of satanic rituals.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
April 31st to May 1st. Now you might be saying to yourself, the murders happened on May 5th. So what does it have to do with anything? Even though, for convenience sake, Valpurgisnacht, Beltane, is celebrated on April 31st and May 1st. For purists, the holiday doesn't fall on a date from the solar calendar.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Instead, it falls on the Beltane Full Moon, which is the fifth full moon after the Yuletide. And that would have been Wednesday the 5th. And in fact, the moon would have been full at 1034 p.m. So there you go.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I'll just say, now that we've finished talking about that, I don't anticipate we're going to talk about this much more as we continue through this. Personally, I have always believed, and I continue to believe, even after reading all this, seeing all this, that whatever happened in those woods had nothing to do with Satanism. It was not an occult sacrifice.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah. And look, I mean, Damien was definitely dabbling in all this stuff. You know, he absolutely was. And we're going to talk later on about his testimony. He's going to lie about some of it, too. I mean, he was deeper involved in some of this than he admits, but he has a reason to lie about it because he knows how bad this looks in 1993 in Arkansas. Really anywhere.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And we talk about Arkansas like it was unique. Anywhere. These would have been bad facts for Damien that he was involved in all this to whatever extent he was involved. even if it was just, you know, he liked to read Aleister Crowley or whatever, would have been bad for him.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
You know, if Damien Echols is guilty, if the three are guilty, could some of this have been rolling around in his head when it was happening? Maybe. I'm not going to say it wasn't. It's just like we said before, there are people who have murdered people who had sort of like these ideas in their mind when they were doing it. But I don't think this was some sort of sacrifice.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I don't think there was any sort of sacrificing going on. I think this was the zeitgeist at the time. This was the milieu that everyone was living in in West Memphis, that this is what was going on. And it did affect the investigation, and it did affect the way the police looked at Damien and prosecuted this case eventually. But is this a satanic crime? No.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Does that really have anything to do with whether or not these three are involved in the murder? I don't think so. And like Alice said, I feel like this is kind of a smokescreen and it's been a smokescreen that's been over this case for a long time. If you've watched Paradise Lost, you see it. There's so much focus on this.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
There's a reason we felt it was necessary to do an entire episode on it to talk about it because it is such a part of this case. But that doesn't mean it's a part of the crime. And I don't think it's part of the crime. And, you know, I'm curious what other people think now that they have heard how this investigation went.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It turned out, you probably won't be surprised to know this, that many of the stories the children told, which were very lurid, just awful, horrific stuff, if you've ever heard satanic I mean, hearing these little small voices talking about what happened to them is just devastating. But it turned out that a lot of this was the result of suggestive interviews by psychologists at the time.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Like I said, well, I'm sure we'll mention some of this again because it comes up a lot, but I think we're not gonna spend a lot of time on Satanism going forward. Next week, we're going to sort of return back to our general outline and start talking about various things about the case in more depth, including some tough stuff like the autopsies.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
of the boys, how these boys were bound, the kind of injuries they suffered, what kind of weapons might have been used, the area they were found, that sort of thing. Now that we've talked about this subject, which, you know, there's not a lot that's fun about this case, but you can kind of have fun with this just because it's so out there.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Next week's going to be a little bit tougher, but we're going to get back into that and work through some of that. I'm interested to know what you guys think, though. If we've been too dismissive of the satanic angle, there are people who believe, you know, I talked about that book Abomination, and that guy thinks this is part of some greater satanic thing going on in the world.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
That's his position. So maybe we've been too dismissive of it. It is something that's important. It played a role in the trials, or at least one of them. So, you know, let us know what you think. Shoot us an email, ProsecutorsPod, at ProsecutorsPod for all your social media. Join us on the gallery on Facebook. There's been a lot of discussion of this case, and frankly, it's been pretty good.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
This is our eighth episode we've recorded. We've released two. Hadn't gotten crazy yet. I don't know if everybody's focused on Karen Reid or not. There's a few people who are whatever, but that's fine. That's part of the game. So join the gallery and let us know what you think on there. If you want to hear these episodes recorded live, join Patreon for as little as $3 a month.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
You can watch us record these episodes. And then you can also get those episodes once they're edited early and ad-free before everyone else. Alice, is there anything else you want to mention before we move on?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Psychologists thought when you're interviewing children, you know, you need to kind of. prod them along so that they'll tell you the story so that they won't just close up. And in the years since, it's become very evident that children like to please and that if you prod them along, they will go as far as you want to push them.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I'll just say this. Even if it's true they focused on Damien because they thought he was a Satanist, that doesn't mean he's innocent. Maybe they stumbled on the right guy for the wrong reason. And the evidence shows that. I don't know. We're going to go through the evidence and see where we end up. But I feel like sometimes...
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
People, they start with the proposition of, well, this is part of the satanic panic. Therefore, Damien Nichols is innocent. Possible. Or it could be, this is part of the satanic panic. And when you know it, they stumbled on the right guy. We're going to see what happens. But just because... There was some weirdness going on here.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And frankly, I wish the police had spent some of the time they spent talking to these people, doing things like canvassing the neighborhood and figuring out exactly where the boys were at every moment or exactly when the last time they were witnessed or I don't know, interviewing Terry Hobbs. Yes, I wish they had done that instead of talking to Bly.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But I don't think that necessarily means that the entire case is undermined. Okay. Well, we've been going long tonight, Alice. So we'll skip the question. So I know you're a busy person, but we'll keep it shorter next week. We'll do questions for you guys. I know you like questions. All right. Anything else you want to say before we sign off, Alice?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Episode eight. Yeah. Can't wait. Episode eight of 80. All right. We'll be back next week with more on the facts of this case. But until then, I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
The kids even claimed there were underground tunnels that led to secret rooms where they were sexually abused by various adults, including Chuck Norris. And that should have been the first sign that this was not true. Chuck Norris, you know, American hero. He would not be involved in something like that. this.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But this turned out to be the longest and most expensive criminal case in history at the time. California spent more than $15 million in a case that ultimately resulted in zero convictions. By 1990, the cases were over. Many of the children eventually recanted. The
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
excavated and there were no tunnels shocker of shocker but this is the sort of zeitgeist of the time where people they hear these stories and they not only think they're possible they believe them fully and everyone in the country was under the impression that something like this was happening
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And we are the Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we discuss the satanic panic. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my devilish co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Well, I just want to say that if you haven't seen this, you can watch it on YouTube. This this episode is available on YouTube. Just look up 2020, you know, satanic panic and you can watch the whole thing. And, you know, you watch it. And at the end, Barbara Walters is like, I can't believe this is going on in our country. And I just think.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It is impossible to really put yourself in this mindset unless you live through it. But you got 2020, you got Barbara Walters, you got this report. They're going across the country talking to people from San Francisco to New York about this. And, you know, they have children in this reenacting the things that happened and the rituals that they saw. And it feels so real.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Dale Griffiths, he is going to testify in this case. He has become rather famous. If you saw Paradise Lost, you've seen his testimony. He had a mail-in order degree, right? And that was sort of a big knock on him in the trial. But it's hard to say that he wasn't an expert on this to the extent you could be an expert on it. He is talking on national television about it.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He is being called in by police departments around the country to talk about it. There's one guy in this, and this should sort of give you an idea that not everyone who's involved in this is being honest. There's one guy they talked to who was like a Christian comedian. who used to be a Satanist, a high-ranking Satanist.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And he'd tell these stories about how the rituals went down and the sacrifices and everything else. And it turned out, an investigation later on, he was just a complete fraudster. He made everything up, all of it up. It was never involved in anything like that. But he's going on 2020 telling everybody, this is what's happening. You know, this is what your kids are getting into.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I can tell you, I'm growing up in the South and during this time, this was a very real thing. Like I can remember, I couldn't do anything that involved dragons. Like dragons were satanic. So if there was a dragon in a movie or a dragon in a video game, couldn't touch it. That was the pathway to evil.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I remember I talked to Jason Blair. I can't remember what we were talking about. They were talking about like mysteries and why mysteries are important on Silver Linings Handbook. And I was telling him there were two things we were afraid of growing up in Alabama, the Ku Klux Klan and Satanists. And they were kind of interchangeable.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Like there were all these stories about these roads that would lead off into the forest and And they were either Klan roads or Satanist roads. But either way, if you ended up on that road in the middle of the night, you were totally getting murdered. You were either getting sacrificed or just murdered straight up. I mean, this was real in all of our minds.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Through high school, I can remember in high school, which was in the mid-90s, people still talking like this. And it wasn't until... I don't know exactly when it was like... Wait... None of that was real. Like there weren't Satanists running around the forest of North Alabama. I don't know. I can say the same thing about the Klan, but there certainly weren't any Satanists doing that. Right.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But we believed it wholeheartedly. And our parents certainly believed it. And I guarantee you, my parents talked about this case. I don't know. They never discussed it with them, but I bet they did. I mean, this was the kind of nightmare that every parent was primed to believe back in the early 90s.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I think now is the time for you to tell your story, Alice.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You've told it before, but some people don't listen to all the episodes, so.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And we are the prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, strange shadows in the night, televisions turning on and off, objects moving without any apparent cause. A tale better told in October? No, something far, far more terrifying. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my peachy co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, I mean, there's pretty much nothing more invasive than someone being in your house, digging through your stuff, eating your food. You're talking about losing any sense of security. You just want to lock yourself in a closet with a gun all the time. And like you said, I mean, it's fortunate that nothing happened to those girls. And it's fortunate that nothing happened in this case.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I mean, obviously, he had a hatchet at one point. And as we're going to see, it's certainly, they are very lucky. I mean, this is a terrible story. We probably wouldn't be doing this story if this was as fascinating as this is. It's only going to get worse. So the police obviously were very interested in why is this guy doing this? Well, it would turn out, remember, he's been there for six months.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Well, it turns out that six months before that, Tina, the oldest daughter, had agreed to go on a date with Daniel LaPlante. Now, she did not like him. They did not hit it off. Tina has a good sense for a crazy person sitting across from her, apparently. He gave her really bad vibes, rubbed her the wrong way, and he was very fixated on her mother's death. So they only went on one date.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This was one date and done. But that was enough for Daniel. At that point, he became absolutely insane. Obsessed. And this obsession led him to going to her home and living in the walls of her house for six months, watching her, watching her family and doing all these incredibly bizarre things. And remember back to that champagne. I think we know who the champagne was for now. It was for Tina.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And it's just fortunate that they didn't go back. And it's fortunate that her dad saw him in the window because I got to think if he'd have walked into that house, not realizing what he was walking into, there's no telling what would have happened to him.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Living in your walls. I mean, who knows how many of those dates living in your walls, probably even as we speak.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Well, this case is going to take us all the way back to June 1986. So Frank Bowen and his daughters, Tina and Karen, they began to notice some strange happenings at their home in Pepperell, Massachusetts. So it started out innocuous enough. Strange sounds throughout the evening. Human-shaped shadows everywhere.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Daniel was charged with the obvious, breaking and entering a dwelling. Four counts of kidnapping, because remember, he moved them from the one room to another. And that's all it takes for kidnapping. Kidnapping is very simple. You force someone through the use of force or intimidation to move from one place to another. Doesn't have to be very far.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
In this case, it was literally from, I guess, the foyer where the closet was to the bedroom. That's enough. He's charged with kidnapping. Four counts of armed assault, larceny, and malicious destruction of property. So he's got some pretty hefty charges against him. Now let's talk a little bit about Daniel. Daniel was born May 15, 1970 in Townsend, Massachusetts.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
His family life was not a happy one. They were very poor. The home was dilapidated. There was junk everywhere. There were old cars littering the lawn. And Daniel would later claim that he was sexually and psychologically abused by several people in his life, including his father and his psychiatrist who he had gone to to attempt to deal with some of these issues.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
That person took advantage of him and also abused him. school was no better for him he attended st bernard's high school in fitchburg massachusetts he was described there as a loner and not particularly friendly by the age of fifteen he had turned to criminal behavior and he began to break into various neighbors homes steal valuables and sell them just to get by
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Now, he is pretty young, and because of his young age, he is held in a juvenile detention center leading up to his trial. But about 10 months after his arrest, the case was transferred from juvenile court to Lowell Superior Court. And I guess the intention was they're going to treat him more like he's an adult.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But unfortunately, this change is going to lead to a decision that's going to have very bad consequences.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
on the wall which doesn't seem innocuous to me by the way maybe innocuous wasn't the right word to use there and someone repeatedly ding dong ditching the home but things only got stranger tina and karen would pour a glass of milk and then find that it had been drank before they were even able to take a sip.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I feel like Daniel didn't have a whole lot of... Structure? Family attention. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
A lot of red flags going up. But unfortunately, as Al said, found one gun. They didn't know about the other one. And they didn't find the other one. So Daniel still has a gun. Fast forward to November 16th, 1987. So we're now at a point less than a month after he's been released on bail. He takes that gun and he breaks into the home of Andrew and Priscilla Gustafson.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
While he's there, he steals multiple items from the house, including a cordless telephone, two cable television boxes, a cable television remote. and some coins from a Liberty Silver Dollar collection. Now, this is pretty much a continuation of what he's done in the past. The living in the walls of the home was a little bit of an aberration. He has been someone who has broken into houses.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He has been someone who was stolen from houses. One problem with burglary is a lot of times we don't take it as seriously as we should. It's seen as sort of a low-level crime. Even though you've ever been burglarized, you know how just invasive that is. I mean, the fact someone breaking into your house, it's not as bad as someone living in your house, but it's pretty awful.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But we don't really take it that seriously. A lot of times, though, burglarers are the people who eventually elevate to worse crimes. And we're going to see that here.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And you have to imagine, as Daniel was walking around the Gustafson house, that he recognized that their family could not have been more different than his own. They were living a happy life in Townsend. Andrew and Priscilla were happily married. They had two children together, Abigail, who was seven, and William, who was five. And Priscilla was newly pregnant with their third child.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
The channels on the TV would change without the family members touching any sort of remote control or the television itself. Food and personal belongings began to go missing. Now this was weird, obviously. I've never experienced anything like this. But Frank, he was skeptical. When his daughters came and told him about all these strange things that were happening.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Andrew worked in real estate, and Priscilla was a preschool teacher at the Townsend Cooperative Preschool. The family was well-liked and very friendly. Fillers of the community, pretty much the perfect family. Everything you could want in life, they had. Daniel, he leaves the home. He takes some of the stolen items and he ends up hiding them in his brother Stephen's tool cabinet.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, by the way. You know, it's not... It's not typically how it works, by the way.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And I have a deal with my wife because the one thing I've noticed about horror movies and horror novels and everything else is the significant other never believes it. They always doubt. And it always turns out that they're right. And then, you know, the other person's telling them, hey, this is happening. This strange thing's happening. And they're always like, oh, Susanna. It's fine.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I'm sure it's nothing. It's all in your head. And then sure enough, it turns out it's like, you know, either the house is haunted by some ancient evil or some serial killers after them or whatever. And if only they'd listened, they could have saved everybody. And usually the husband or wife who doesn't believe is one of the people who ends up dead. So anyway, so I have a deal with my wife.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Always believe. If I ever tell you, you know, this crazy weird thing's happening, you have to believe it. So hopefully she'll stick to that. Anyways, but Dad, he is skeptical. He does not believe. He hears his daughter telling him this, and he thinks that they are still having a hard time coping with the death of their mother, who had died only a year prior. And this is perfectly logical.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I can imagine thinking something like this. And that's what he's saying. He's like... These weird things are on the girl's heads. Everybody processes grief differently. They're obviously doing that. They've suffered this tragedy. So I'm going to let them sort of I'm going to indulge these fantasies they have. But there's nothing to it. But things continued to escalate.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So at this point, Daniel is going to plead not guilty to all counts of first degree murder. And he was ordered to undergo 20 days of psychiatric evaluation at Bridgewater State Hospital, which I would expect. I mean, at this point, he's either he's either an absolute monster or he's out of his mind. I think is basically what people are thinking.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
We need to figure that out is even competent to stay in trial is going to be a question that's going to happen in this case. So police obtained a second search warrant for his home. Later on, his brother, Stephen LaPlante, and friend, Michael Palowski, they would find the murder weapon in the glove compartment of an abandoned vehicle on Daniel's property.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Remember, there's all those cars, and this is pretty clearly what the second search warrant was for. They were looking for that murder weapon. They couldn't quite find the murder weapon. Well, they eventually do find it. He has hidden it in the glove compartment. And I just want to say, This goes to, we talk about the insanity defense. Like he clearly, he thought this through.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He planned for the murder and he's attempting to cover it up by hiding the gun. I think that would be something that was important. He is eventually indicted on 28 counts. Four charges related to the murder, a handful related to the Bowen family. Remember, I mean, as horrible as what happened to them was, that was like a blessing compared to the stuff he's going to do later.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And then, of course, all these other things he's done, like kidnapping this other lady, all the break-ins, everything. And a judge ruled he would have to be tried for the murders first. That's not that unusual, because if you try somebody for triple homicide, you find him guilty of that. You're probably just going to go ahead and find him guilty of breaking and entering.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Probably not even going to really think about that if you're the jury. So basically, we're going to separate those out. He's going to be tried for the murders. And then if the state decides to go ahead and try him for those, he'll be tried for the other charges as well.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
One day, the phone lines to the house were cut. And at this point, it became clear that something was really wrong. And the Bowens began to consider selling their home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And this is a situation where there's no downside to going to trial unless he wants to plead guilty to sort of alleviate his own mind, the burden of what he's done, right? We talked about this in some of the Richard Allen case. If it's not a death penalty case, and if you plead guilty, it's life without parole, you might as well roll the dice, right?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And it seems like that's basically what happened here. He rolled the dice, but his defense knew this is basically a slow guilty plea. There's no defense we can put on, so let's just try and poke holes and maybe... We'll get lucky with the jury. But on October 26th, 1988, the jury found Daniel guilty on all counts. Massachusetts does not have the death penalty.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And so he was sentenced to three consecutive life sentences without parole. And not surprisingly, He was never tried for the charges related to tormenting the Bowen family or any additional charges because, once again, he has been convicted. He's going to be in prison for the rest of his life. The Commonwealth decides not worth pursuing those, and they let him go. That's fairly common.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
In 1993, his appeal was denied, and that should have been the end of it. But then the Supreme Court, in its infinite wisdom, bans life without parole sentences for juveniles. And this made some convicted killers eligible for parole after only two.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
15 years and i say ban life without parole sentences not actually they banned automatic life without parole sentences so basically you had to conduct some sort of there has to be some showing that this is a particularly egregious crime that's worthy of a life without parole for a juvenile juveniles can get life without parole but it's not automatic in the way it would be for an adult
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And look, I believe in parole, but can we start prioritizing victims and protecting society and not like, why do you have a law? specifically cites crimes of extreme cruelty and atrocity as ones you're going to allow parole on. Extreme cruelty and atrocity should be the ones that don't get parole. Those should be the people who die in prison. That's what should happen to Daniel.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He should die in prison. But, you know, whatever. They're citing this law. Fortunately, and I think this speaks to just how horrible Daniel's crimes were that the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, which is not exactly known to be tough on crime.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Pretty pro, however you want to put that. They are it. Well, they denied Laplante's request for early trial. eligibility for parole. Justice David Lowy wrote the court decision and he provided the following rationale. The defendant's sentence is proportional both to the crimes he committed and to his particular characteristics as an offender. Yes, it is.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Ultimately, the resentencing judge concluded that although the defendant had shown signs of improved behavior in recent years, his prognosis for rehabilitation in the future is guarded. You can say that again. Daniel is currently being held at the Massachusetts Correctional Institute in Norfolk. He will be eligible for parole in 2033.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So in eight years, those of you living in Massachusetts, prepare yourselves for his possibility of parole, though we can hope he'll never get parole. He will be 62 years old at that time.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And we talked about before, a lot of times criminal behavior, people will age out of it. So your criminal active years are not unlike your working years. You know, your 20s to your late 50s is really when you see people commit most crimes. And so for a lot of things, you can get people past that. You feel like they probably are not a dangerous society. I think whatever is in him.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And whatever it was that drove him to do this, whether it's just a real darkness in his heart or some sort of mental illness, whatever it is, it's still there and it will always be there. So I think he will always be a threat. And I don't care how old he is. You know, you can fire a gun at any age. And that's how he is killed before. And I think he would kill again. This story is a terrible one.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
If you just can't get enough of it. True crime all the time. Did some coverage of this dark down east. There's a lot of articles about it. There have been several one-hour shows that do different crimes every week, have done some pretty good shows on this as well, so there's stuff out there.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But it is a terrible crime, and it's wild because it starts off with just this utterly bizarre incident where he's living in the walls of somebody's home, and you just wish that someone had recognized just how dangerous deviant that kind of behavior was. And this was not a person who needed to be out on bail if he'd done something like that.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Because my first thought, if I had been that family, I mean, I would have gotten out of the state because my first thought would have been he's coming back for us. He didn't do that, but he did target another family and he wiped them out.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
No, I think you're absolutely right about that. And look, we would love to hear your thoughts on this case. Shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com, at prosecutorspod for our social media. If you have had someone living in the walls of your house, let us hear the story. It'll freak Alice out all the better. You see, Alice, there's that door behind you. Who knows what's behind that door?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Thanks. I'm not entirely sure. I should start keeping track of who recommends cases for us. But whoever recommended that case, I mean, wow. That one is a dark one. Alice, do you have a second or you need to go? I don't want to keep you if you need to go.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Well, I'm going to do something slightly different today. So you guys probably recall the William Alas episode we did at the end of last year. We got like a really incredible response to that episode. And one thing that we got was a lot of people who sent their own stories into us. And we're fine with us sharing them with you because they wanted more people to
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
who have been victimized, who've been victims to know that they're not alone and that it is possible to get justice. So we have several of these, but I was going to read one of those emails we received to you guys. And obviously I won't name the person, but.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This person says, I saw your comment on the post about the above episode, the A-list episode, and I wanted to reach out because I have a story I want to share. I'm in the UK, so parts of it will be different to how things work in the US, but having spent the last eight months going through a police investigation into events that happened over 25 years ago, I have things I'd like to share.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It's a really common story in that it involves a teacher, and the rest I expect you can guess. The file has just been given to the Crown prosecutor to decide if charges can be brought against him. In the period leading up to me deciding to make a report to the police, I searched for stories of people who had done the same and only found one that resulted in a successful prosecution.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
The journey is an incredibly lonely one at times, and I believe the more stories that are out there, The better, because even if someone doesn't want to make a report, hearing other experiences is so incredibly validating.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Just knowing that similar things have happened to other people is powerful and can be helpful in starting to see the level of manipulation, planning, and skill that underpin the crimes themselves. Wishing you both a very Merry Christmas and a joyful and peaceful day. New Year. So I want to thank that person for sharing that.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I want to share it with you because I think what she says is absolutely true. You are not alone. There are other people who've gone through it before, and it is possible to come out the other side and even to find justice.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And as people share their stories, we'll be sure to share them with you. And just know that you're not alone. There are people out there who want to help. We want to help. And you can get through this. Okay, guys. Well, this has been a heavy episode. But, you know, that's what y'all come for, I guess. Weirdos. We'll be back next week with a new case. Maybe one... Maybe we'll do like...
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Maybe not a child murder. Maybe we'll do a mystery next week. One that doesn't, exactly, doesn't involve child murder. So those of you, you know, next week won't be the West Memphis Three. I'm just going to tell you that. Okay. Well, we'll be back next week with something. Who knows what. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are the prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Well, this case is going to take us all the way back to June 1986. So Frank Bowen and his daughters, Tina and Karen, they began to notice some strange happenings at their home in Pepperell, Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Massachusetts. We try that again. Some strange happenings at their home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
In Pepperell, Massachusetts. It's like my words just didn't want to come out. It was like the words. It was so good though, Massachusetts.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
There you go. I was trying to get into that. I'm trying to just put on my Boston, but that's probably not. It's always nice to go back to Massachusetts. I am very happy. Somebody asked if I was using peachy because we're going to Georgia. You're the one who's the words connect. I'm sorry. I just throw them out there.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You're talking about something straight out of a horror movie. I mean, it's not just there's somebody in the house. But, like, the face painted and the hair sticking straight up. I mean, I just... I don't know. Like, you talk about terrifying. I think I would just have a heart attack right there. I would just have a heart attack and drop dead. And I wouldn't... I mean, can you imagine...
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I got to say, not to keep interrupting, but you made a good point earlier and I just want to emphasize it. What exactly did Frank think he was going to find? Yeah. Like, how did he think this was going to end? Yeah. In a positive way.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like you open enough doors, eventually you're going to find something behind one. And this is about as horrifying as it could be. But no matter what you found, it would not be a good thing. I mean.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Tina knows when it's time. There's a time to plan and there's a time to jump out the window. And this was a time to jump out the window.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Right. So at this point, she's ran to the neighbor. The neighbor calls the police and they are racing to the scene. They interview Tina as well as the neighbor. And Tina is telling them what's going on. She gives them the phone number to the home. They try calling. But of course, the calls are unanswered. At this point, they surround the home, making a plan on what they're going to do.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You have a situation where a guy you know is armed and pretty clearly out of his mind. And you have these civilians who are there as well. And you don't know what the situation is. You don't know if he's gotten into that bedroom, if he's now taking them hostage, what the danger is. The police are not just going to start opening doors and closets and seeing what they find.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So they surround the house. And as they're getting ready, they're also making a plan, just like Frank was earlier. Well, Frank now sees them. And he is now calling to them from the second story window. So they managed to get up to the house. And Frank lowers the two other girls down to them. And then he jumps down himself. So now all the civilians are out of the home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
The police can enter the home. And the only danger is to them. They don't have to worry about the civilians. So they go in. They search the home. They search the surrounding area. They search the woods behind the house for any sign of the intruder. But they aren't able to find him. He has disappeared just as quickly as he appeared. He is now gone and they don't know where he went.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So some point, you know, while the family's all locked in this bedroom and Tina's running, it appears to them that he has escaped. So the sliding back door to the home was slightly open and they found a hatchet and a wrench on the ground near the porch steps. And at this point, they're like, OK, this is what happened. He slipped out through the sliding glass door. He left his weapons here.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He's taken off before we can get to him. So no one knew who this was. It wasn't immediately obvious to the family or law enforcement. Obviously, this person had their face painted. They're dressed in a fur coat with their hair standing on end. Not easy to ID them. The physical description given by the Bowen family varied from person to person. You can imagine this is a high stress situation.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They're all freaking out. They're describing it. They all saw the same guy, but they're all describing a different person. So this is not very helpful. There's not a whole lot of evidence to go off of. And it appears the intruder was not only wearing a fur coat, he was also wearing gloves. So the hatchet and the wrench had no fingerprints on them. So they couldn't use fingerprints to identify him.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And the Bowens were told probably shouldn't stay at the house tonight, which some obvious advice from the police, but best advice you could give. And you know what? They agreed. So they decide we're leaving the house. We're not going to stay at the house tonight. We don't know if the guy will come back. They go off to stay somewhere else.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
That was CMP's word for you. Peachy. Peachy keen.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It's like, policeman walks in and sees X, Y, and Z. If you saw this in a horror movie, you'd be like, that's ridiculous. That's too much. You've gone too far, script writers. Like the knife stabbed through the photo. Too much. And the I'll be back and I'm in your room. And the champagne, the two glasses of champagne. Like, who is it for?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah. Now, I mean, the BB gun is really not that big a deal. But everything else is just terrifying. And this is a true story. All this, I promise you, all this absolutely happened.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Well, today we are going to talk a little bit about our favorite cases that we've done and, you know, answer some of your questions. We're recording this live. I guess if anybody from the chat wants to join and ask a question, they're welcome to do that as well. It's sort of a free-for-all. And then next week's Christmas, guys, which is wild. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We did a lot of research in that case, really dug into that case. And it was one of those where a lot of the cases we do, I know where we're going to end up, right? I mean, because either it's a mystery, so we're going to end up saying we hope people will help solve it, or it's pretty obvious what happened. But that one going into it, Could have gone either way.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And it was the twists and turns and seeing how all the evidence lined up to his innocence is always incredible. I really enjoyed that. And it was good to see him get out of prison. That was nice.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And the one thing about Leah Schofield, and I think I'll say this. Yeah, people often say we think everybody's guilty. And I think one thing that people need to realize is most people who are convicted by a jury are guilty. They are guilty and they're guilty regardless of how many podcasts want to poke holes in their guilt. They're guilty regardless of their protestations and their innocence.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And that's just a fact. And that's why Leo's case was interesting and really, I think, is a blueprint for real innocence claims. Because if you look at Leo's case, why was he convicted? Number one, because arguably he was a bad dude, right? Arguably he was abusive with Michelle and he was the usual suspect. He was the guy that we all think of who does it, right? What's the old joke?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
The husband did it. I mean, that's what we say in true crime, right? Wife ends up dead. Girlfriend ends up dead. The first person you're looking at is the husband or the boyfriend. And then when you look at the husband or the boyfriend and you see that he's abusive, what are you going to say? Oh, well, we know who did this, right? So that was the first thing.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
He was somebody who you would think is the kind of person who would do this, which means you're probably going to get a little bit of tunnel vision in your investigation. Number two, most of the case was based on unreliable eyewitnesses, eyewitnesses whose stories changed, eyewitnesses who didn't come forward for a year later. That was the bulk of the prosecution story.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And not only was it not backed up with forensics, you don't always have forensics. Sometimes, you know, you just don't have the evidence you would like, whether it's the fingerprints or the DNA or the blood or whatever. But in this case, it was contradictory forensics. In the place where you should have all the blood, there was no blood.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
In the place where there shouldn't be any blood, there was a ton of blood, which made you think the story we're being told probably isn't true. And you had just enough malfeasance on the part of law enforcement.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
This wasn't a case where you needed law enforcement to be framing Leo every step of the way, where every piece of evidence had to be planted and every single witness had to be coached, like you see in a lot of these cases. You just needed a prosecutor who was zealous enough.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
that he was willing to talk to those unreliable eyewitnesses and either sort of guide them in the direction to where their stories eventually fit or tell them straight up, look, this guy did it and I need you to help me. And they were willing to provide that.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
That is the kind of sort of law enforcement conspiracy type thing that I think is much more realistic than what you've seen a lot of these innocence cases. So that was what I thought was also really interesting about Leo is I do think it's a blueprint for real innocence cases.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And when you contrast it to some of the more famous innocence cases and you see how different they are, I think it also is a lesson learned.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
for people out there and joe mentioned and i had forgot about this we ended up on 2020 talking about oh was that this year that was this year yeah oh my goodness wow a lot happened this year like podcasts and podcast tangential that i kind of forgot about that's crazy new podcast to her repertoire forgot about that Yeah. American Justice and City Confidential.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah. This is what happens when you're having a baby at the end of the year. You have to record way ahead of time, including through Christmas. So that's what we're doing. Anyways, so just you don't have to imagine. For you, this is actually happening in Christmas. So we're going to put on our Santa hats right now. And do this right. So Merry Christmas to everybody.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And then, yeah, we've written a few op-eds now. We're getting into the writing thing.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Oh, yeah, we had Nancy Grace on the show. That was awesome.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Did some great interviews this year. We really did. Yeah, there were some really. I mean, had some fantastic interviews.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We've got sort of a backlog of interviews right now. Some of you haven't even heard. I don't know if this one will have come out yet, but one of the more interesting ones we just did was an interview with Judge Belvin Perry, who was the judge in the Casey Anthony case. He's written a book called The Velvet Hammer, which you should go pick up.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And, you know, they reached out and were like, hey, would you be interested in talking to the judge in the Casey Anthony case? It's like, yeah, yeah, we're interested in talking to him. So, you know, stuff like that. It's been a lot of fun. And yeah, those have been tremendous. So moving on from Leo Schofield, that's actually not my favorite case we did.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I hope you guys have had a great holiday season. And we look forward to the next year, which is going to be amazing. We're going to have a lot of awesome stuff for you guys. We're going to be doing some big cases. Some cases you guys have been asking for for a while. And we'll just see how it goes. If we survive next year or not. And hey, Crime Cons in September. It's in Denver.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Another honorable mention, Judy Martins, which I really liked that case because it was one that is not covered at all, but it was really interesting. There wasn't a whole lot of information to it, but the information you had was just fascinating. And I really felt like that was a case with a little bit more attention could be solved. So I enjoyed that one.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
It almost felt like a throwback to some of the cases we've done in the past. So I really liked that one. And hopefully we can do more cases like that in the future.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Well, my favorite case that we did this year was D.B. Cooper. Of course. Which I loved. I mean, we went into that kind of like.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
It was just a great case. I mean, that one for me, it became like the new Dyatlov pass for me. Like I just really got into it, really enjoyed it. It was so much fun. Hope you guys enjoyed it too. And we spent a lot of time on it. Not as much as we did Karen Reed, which is not going to be in my top.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
three cases we did but i think frankly is the defining case of this year it's hard for it not to be the karen reed case but yeah db cooper was so much fun i i enjoyed that so much and i hope you guys enjoyed it too makes me want to go back and listen to it again you know just just a terrific terrific case i hope db's listening right now cheers to you db
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, Code Prosecutors for 10% off. Do that. We'd love to see you. And who knows? Maybe we'll have some children in tow. You never know. Okay. With that, Alice, I think we should start with one of my favorite things that we do is our demographics. our listeners, where you guys come from. I know a lot of y'all really enjoy this.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I gave you some. Finally. Yeah, whatever. Alice is always making claims. So anyways, big fan of Divi Cooper. Oh, Sophie is brave enough. She's stepped up. She's going to ask a question. Hello, Sophie. Hi, Sophie. Oh, Sophie is brave enough. She's stepped up.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah, and it was amazing. Yeah, CrimeCon was fantastic.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Well, we appreciate you guys. Like I sent this, the link for this like 15 minutes before we did it. And there's a hundred of them here.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And you guys may not know this, but Sophie is an incredibly talented person. She can do just about anything. And if you've been on the store recently, Sophie is probably responsible for half of the designs of the various shirts and everything else we have. She's amazing. She's right up there. You know, Hannah does our, our episode art.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We try and give you an update on this every now and then. So we'll start with countries. I think the first one is obvious. The United States is number one with about 80% of our listeners, but That means one in five of you are from somewhere else around the world, which is awesome. And I want to encourage you all to send us cases from your countries. We love doing cases from other countries.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
See you. Okay, so we've got a bunch of questions that you guys have been sending in, the five-star questions. And we thought this was a good time to maybe catch up on a few and answer some of them. I thought this one was interesting. This is from Jen. And she, I assume it's a she, it could be a guy.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
They want to know what we think about the difference between the Idaho case and the Delphi case, both their incarceration and sort of the way those cases have progressed and everything else. In both cases, you kind of have small towns handling a really big case. And what do we think about the difference? I think that's a pretty fascinating question, actually.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I would say I think one of the differences is the perpetrators, the accused. Now, Brian Koberger, innocent or guilty, has never seemed bothered by the whole fact that he is being accused of a quadruple murder. He does not seem to be having any mental health issues. He seems perfectly fine, whereas it seems like Richard Allen very quickly said,
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
began to devolve which i think is one of the reasons in that case you see so many confessions i mean he he just whatever mental walls he had built up assuming he's guilty over the period where he was free came crashing down once he was arrested so i think that's one of the issues is just the difference between the two of them is pretty stark
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And this is a fascinating point that Alice makes. And I think it goes to sort of this project we've been talking about of how true crime can really have negative effects. Moscow was headed that way. You saw some of it. You know, you had the crazy TikToker who claimed it was one of the teachers did.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
A professor, yeah. And she had a psychic vision, right? You had people saying it was the DoorDash guy. You had people saying it was the surviving roommates. This was starting to spin up. Imagine if it had taken five years to find Brian Koberger. Imagine how much people would have invested in those theories. And then Brian Koberger gets arrested and he's just like some random dude from the area.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
It's a lot of fun and we don't do enough of it. So please do that. And maybe you can start with our number two country. Alice, any guesses? Number two.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And I think you really see that in Delphi. A lot of the people who don't think Richard Allen was guilty, they don't actually believe some of the things you've heard. Like the whole Odinus thing is an aside. Most of the people... And you're just going to take my word for it on this, but most of the people who push the doneness thing don't believe the doneness thing.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
They just think Richard Allen's not guilty and they want him to be acquitted so he can move on to the real killers, right? A lot of them were incredibly invested in various other suspects. So whether it's Keegan Klein or Ron Logan, like Ron Logan, a lot of people were just so convinced it was Ron Logan that, So once Richard Allen was arrested, they were never going to accept that.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
It didn't matter what the evidence was because they were so invested. And I think the fact that that built up so much is one of the reasons you see people who just refuse to really even consider the possibility that Richard Allen is the one who did it. And you just didn't have as much time for that in Moscow. You still have some people. Who some Brian Koberger stans, right?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Who, you know, they think, you know, there's no way that they could have that little DNA with someone who killed four different people. And all the DNA we have is this little bit of DNA on this, this clasp of a knife sheath, right? So there must be some explanation for that.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
When in reality, and I would hope that people are starting to see this and understand this, it is not always the case or even usually the case that you have a lot of DNA or any DNA in these cases. In the Delphi case, there's no DNA of the killer. The girls were murdered. Someone murdered the girls and they did it without leaving any DNA behind.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So the fact that we're not seeing DNA doesn't mean whoever is arrested didn't do it, right? Someone killed those kids in Moscow. And the fact that we only have a little bit of DNA isn't an argument that Koberger didn't do it, right? So it's interesting to see how people's minds work when they really want it to not be the case. It's not even an innocent until proven guilty thing.
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Comes in number two. Number three. Do you want to guess number three?
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
They are invested in it being someone else's. And these big cases. And that's one of the problems when when these cases have all this attention, you just see these sort of sidelines start to develop that you don't necessarily see in the run of the mill case that we hear about. You know, maybe we maybe we hear about it when it goes to trial and then people start paying attention.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But you don't have all these conspiracies develop like you do with these long running cases. Okay. Let's see. I want to do a good one here. They're all good, Brett. They're all good. They're all good. There's just so many of them. I'll ask you this one, Alice. All right. I can't really think of... Well, I have a... Okay, so this is from Lowpops12.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
He wants to know, what is the worst thing that has ever happened during one of your trials?
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So, Allison and I had this one trial. It was very long. It lasted for about a month. And there were a number of co-conspirators who had flipped. And one of them, I was doing the direct on. And... This guy, so the judge in this case, I'm going to tell you about this now because this case is completely closed. The judge in this case is like a lion of the bench. He's been on the bench since the 70s.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
He's the first African-American judge in our district, maybe in the state. I think in the state, just titan of the law, knows everything. more about the law and the history of the civil rights movement and everything else than anybody in the country.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah, they probably will. And this case involved some people who were essentially diverting money from the black belt in Alabama to other parts of the state. And the black belt is the sort of middle part of the state that It's named for its fertile soil because the soil is so rich that it's black.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And it's a lot of the plantations were there, the farming, the peanut farms, like everything when you think about agriculture in Alabama is in this area. So this guy He's one of our witnesses, and he's hostile in the weirdest way because he had such a high opinion of himself, right?
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And he never, even though he pled guilty, and even though he clearly was part of this, he never really considered himself to be a bad guy, right? I think he showed up in like a bow tie, for example. Yeah, I mean, so I'm trying to get him up and down. We need him to say what he's going to say because he's an important witness, but not a guy you want to do a lot of talking.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Not likable at all. But the problem is, at some point, I don't know how, I can't even remember how we got to this. But at some point he starts talking about the black belt and he's like, and he looks at the jury and he's like, and you know, we all know why it's called the black belt.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And so the judge sort of perks up at this point and does the thing that you never want to happen. He's like, counsel, hold on a minute. And he turns to him and he starts questioning him. And he's like, so you mentioned the black belt. why is it called the Black Belt? Which he knows why it's really called the Black Belt.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I'm so sorry. Sorry, guys. Maybe next year we'll remember you. And then our fifth country, which is always fun, Germany. So Germany comes in Number five, which is fun because that's a non-English speaking country. I mean, everybody in Germany speaks English, but the other top four.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And the guy's like, well, you know, because there's so many black people who live there. Which is not the answer. And the judge is like, okay, go on. And then the guy just starts saying all this stuff that's like, yeah, and you know, there's no restaurants there. I mean, there's like nothing there. Like everybody has to eat at a gas station. That's like the best place they can get food.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
There's nothing I can do because I'm not asking him questions anymore. The judge has now taken over. And so the judge is asking these questions.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And the witness is totally oblivious. Is that how he's sounding?
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
It was not great. And the thing is, if it were a cross-examination, I could have been like, objection to your honor, this is not relevant. We don't really need to be going into this, the history of the black belt. But you can't do that when it's the judge asking the questions. So that was a difficult moment. And we ended up winning the case. It worked out.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
If y'all know Ed Orgeron, he is Ed Orgeron's twin brother. Looks like him, sounds like him. Football, football.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah, he forgot his hearing aid. He had hearing aids, but he forgot them when he was testifying. So he couldn't hear anything.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
The Hinterkaifeck. Is that Germany or Austria? I can't remember.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
At one point, he says, you remember driving down the road? This stop sign right here. There's always a state trooper sitting right there. You need to slow down if you're coming down the highway this way. It wasn't there that day. And it's like...
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Was that Germany? Okay. Yeah. I'm almost positive. I'm almost positive it was Germany.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah, I mean, it was something. And like I said, he goes on for three days, and he kept everything related back to football. It was always like, you know, when you're on a football field, because he was like the right-hand man to the main guy, right? So there were two guys, two main guys. One guy pled guilty. We're on trial with the other guy.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And, you know, we're asking questions like, so when they told you to do this, did you know it was illegal? Yes. Why'd you do it? Well, you know, when you're on a football team, the head coach tells you to do something. You may not agree with him. But if you're just a defense coordinator, I'm a defense coordinator. If you're a defense coordinator, you're going to do what he says.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Even if you don't think it's the right thing to do. And it's like, it was always like that. He was always going back.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And so when he's drawing this stuff on the map, like I am just, I can't help from laughing.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
His lawyer comes up afterwards and he's mad at me. He's like, I saw you laughing. When Coach was testifying, I was like, are you kidding? Of course I was laughing. Everyone was laughing. What do you mean?
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
He ended up spending the rest of the day on his knees next to the court reporter because he couldn't hear and he couldn't see anything.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah, they fogged up. So at one point, the defense actually objects and they're like, Your Honor, this is very unusual for him to be doing this. He needs to be testifying from the stand. And we're just like...
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah, it was wild. It was wild. At one point, during cross-examination at one point, the defense attorney was trying to get him to break. And they're like, you're really proud of yourself, aren't you? You're really proud of what you did. And he's like, yeah, I'm proud of what I did.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
everybody's here because of me and the defense attorney's like oh you think you're the reason we're here and he's like are you asking me whether or not they'd have been able to prosecute these people without me and and the defense is like yeah he's like you betcha It was just, it was, wow. It was a wild cast of characters, y'all. Should have been televised.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah, it was. That was wild. I just remember thinking, if this jury hangs and we have to do this again, like, man, I don't know that I can. I'm retiring.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
This might have been an instance. You know, we always talk about you only need one. And people are sometimes like, well, what does that even mean? You know, one just means you're hung a jury and they just try you again. So that's true. And there are cases like the Karen Reed case where you're going to go through all that rigmarole because it's a murder trial.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But a lot of times, if you have a hung jury, you just kind of say, you know what? I don't think I can do this again. I don't think I can do this again. We gave it our best shot.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay, so do you want to guess the top state in the United States?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay. Well, guys, this has been fun. It's been a fun year. We hope you guys have enjoyed it as much as we have. We plan on doing this for as long as you guys will continue to listen to us. So hopefully you'll keep listening, keep telling your friends, keep growing the podcast. We have all sorts of opportunities because of you guys, and we really appreciate you.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We wouldn't be here without you, and I hope you know that. And it was nice, Sophie telling us how much she appreciates the time we put into this. But we recognize very much that without your time and your commitment and your support, we wouldn't be here. So this has been an incredible ride. I can't believe we're going into our fifth year. Is that next year?
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yep, that's right. It sure did. And, you know, it's just wild. You guys have seen us live our lives, so it's incredible. Okay, well, we want to hear from you. As we always say, you guys drive the podcast. Let us know what you want to hear. Send us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com. Join us on all the various social medias at prosecutors pod. Join us on the gallery.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We have a lot of great discussions there. Follow us on Tik TOK. Join us on Patreon. If you're listening to this now on the Eve of Christmas with snow falling outside your window, you could be watching this live before it's even had Halloween. We're still celebrating Halloween here while you guys are celebrating Christmas.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And of course you would get these episodes early and ad free, even if you didn't take part in the live recordings. Well, Alice, is there anything else you want to say before we sign off for this episode and for 2024? We will have some more episodes to fill out the rest of the year, but they're going to be blooper episodes. So this is the last time we're going to talk to you live this year.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yes, Alice, you mean the world to me, and I'm so glad we're doing this together. If I was doing this with anybody else, I wouldn't have made it five years, I can tell you that much. But I look forward to every single recording that we do. It is some of the best times. This podcast is one of the best things that's ever happened to me, so thank you for making that possible.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay, guys, well, we will see you in 2025. But until then, I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah. I have a few suspects. I'm going to go ahead and get a laugh. Okay.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Oh. There is. Number three is an SEC state, but number two is not.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay. Now, look, we'll probably record more with you guys. We'll probably record. Don't worry. We're not going to. Yeah, I mean, we'll probably be recording for 2025 in late December.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
California, by the way, is 9%. So catching up on Texas.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Then it's a big drop to Florida. Florida's 4.2%. And the next one is 4%. Any guesses?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
New York is number four. You guys. Last but not least, just under New York, actually. You'll never get this one, but you can guess if you want to.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Thank you. North Carolina. Throw your hands up. Take your shirt off. Wave it around your head like a helicopter. There you go. Okay. And, you know, time zones are pretty easy. Eastern is number one. Central is number two. Pacific is number three. Mountain time, number four. And then our favorite time, British summertime, which is amazing. Makes me just want to drink tea. Okay.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Last thing before we move on to more substantive conversation, Alice, what do you think the top city is? Um,
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
1.3% of our listeners live in Dallas. Okay. So yay Dallas.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I'm sure that none of that has to do with indoctrination by his mother. Tell you what, by the time you hear this, one of the biggest football games maybe ever will have been played. Texas and Texas A&M.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
If Texas and Texas A&M continue not to lose any games and they're to play in the SEC championship game, the first time they're playing each other in like a decade, that's going to be all the oil money in Texas is going to go to tickets for that game.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah. Okay. So Dallas is number one. Any guesses about number two?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Houston is number four with 1% of our listeners. So Texas, Dallas is 1.3. Houston is 1%. The second city has always been one of our top cities.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
When we had like 25 listeners, we would get wild. There was that one little town in Washington, something Lake Washington. There's like 5,000 people who live there. I think it was a book club.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Anyways, so number two, you still haven't guessed it. You got number two and number three left.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
LA? I think California must be spread out. LA, okay, LA is number six.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Chicago, Chicago, Illinois has always been. Yeah. Austin's down there a bit. Okay. And then number three, do you want me to just tell you what number three is? Tell me number three. Charlotte. Charlotte, North Carolina.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So I'll give you like the rest. I'll give you the next, you know, the top, the next 20 or whatever. The top 25. So Los Angeles, Melbourne, or Melbourne, Melbourne? Wait, Australia? I don't know. They tried to tell me how to pronounce it before. Yeah.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Look, if they ever do a CrimeCon Australia, I'm there. Okay, Denver is next. Denver. Looking forward to going to Denver for CrimeCon. Philadelphia, Seattle, Phoenix, San Antonio, Indianapolis, Toronto, Brisbane. I think that's how we're supposed to pronounce it, right? Not Brisbane. Brisbane. Brisbane. Brisbane. Washington, D.C., Portland, Oregon, St.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Louis, Missouri, Missouri, Minneapolis, Minnesota. See, that's all Sophie. Kansas City, Missouri, Brooklyn, New York, which I didn't realize they broke Brooklyn and New York City up. I thought Brooklyn would have been part of New York City. Yeah.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
so what is New York City is that just Manhattan I guess so wow okay Austin Texas Fort Worth Texas they actually break Dallas and Fort Worth up so if you combine Dallas and Fort Worth they'd definitely be number one well they aren't Dallas is number one anyway but that would add another chunk Omaha Columbus Ohio Dublin
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Did I say Boston? Boston was ahead of Omaha. I don't think you had said Boston. Shout out to Boston. Okay, so that's, there you go. Okay, so with that, Alice, have you thought about your favorite cases that we covered this year? You can mention any number you want to.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I mean, we're doing it in October, technically. I was trying to be in character, okay? Yeah.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Yeah. Robert one is definitely, we did a lot of cases that were really impactful to me, really hit me a lot. Several of the cases we did this year, more so I would say than usual. Like there are cases that I think of that we did that have always stuck with me. Asia degree, for instance, which, you know,
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, our year in review. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my holly jolly co-host, Alice.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
The thing I don't remember about this year is the break in that case, which hopefully next year, or by the end of this year, you never know. But next year, I think, if we haven't heard something by the end of this year, next year could be the year we solve the Asia degree case. Not we, but the police. salvation degree case. I'm hopeful for that.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But yeah, there were a lot of cases that we did this year that meant a lot to me. Robert Orme was a big one. And like you said, not only because it is an incredible mystery, but also it felt so close. And it was one of those cases where it just seemed like this bizarre thing that happened in this horrible tragedy could really have happened to anybody.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
You know, and the reason for that is because we all have friends and we all assume that we're safe with them. Right. And Robert should have been in a safe place like this wasn't he went into the deepest, darkest forest and disappeared in the middle of the Amazon jungle.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And you're kind of like, well, I mean, that kind of happens sometimes when you go to the Amazon jungle, you're sort of taking your life in your own hands. Right. or Dyatlov Pass or on the side of a mountain in the blizzard, right? He had made it to the safe place.
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281: Our 2024 Year in Review
He was in the place where he should have been able to lay down his head, go to sleep, and know that he was completely safe, and yet he's murdered, most likely by the people he trusted the most. And so that hit me a lot. I think some runners up for me, Leo Schofield, which we did at the beginning of this year and put a lot into. Number one, it was a ton of work.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now look, just because he's moved out of the apartment... It doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't go pick them up at the laundromat, I guess, though it certainly seems unusual for what happened the day before to have happened. And now, as Alice said, he knows exactly when his son's home. And this comes up again and again.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And it really is just one of those difficult things because so much of Damien's day includes his father in a way that just is strange. And you're going to see that as we go. I mean, the stories that are told to us about this day are, continued to be that his dad was there, despite the fact he supposedly moved out of the house the day before.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And look, this is really important, obviously, because if the boys are already in the woods and the three are coming out, then they seem more like viable suspects. And I'll say this, I'll give credit where credit's due. Bob Ruff, in his coverage of this case, I actually think he nails this about who these kids are. I think he identifies them.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
There's some people who live down the street, almost certainly no way involved in this case. And his interview with Don really clears up a lot because Dana is telling the story that doesn't really make sense. about when Dawn is down there and when she's seeing the kids and when she's on her bike and when these three boys are coming out and the timeline is really messed up.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But with this sort of new information, it all makes more sense. That this happened earlier, before the three boys would have even been together, certainly before the three boys would have gone into Robin Hood Hills. So I think we can say that this sighting, while initially intriguing, probably has nothing to do with the case. The shot thing is funny. You know, she was 10 years old.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
She had no idea what they were talking about. Obviously, they're talking about a shot, like you want some whiskey or whatever. But, you know, she's 10. So her mind immediately goes to drugs. But I think with that sort of new information, the mysterious sighting of these three teenagers becomes a lot more clear and just isn't that important.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It's one of those things we can kind of put to the side and move forward. Guys, if you listen to this podcast, you know that Alice and I both have young kids, and I see the way they look at my phone. My daughter, for Christmas, what did she want? She wanted a watch that does everything. And I knew exactly what she meant. She wanted a smartwatch. She wants a phone.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
She wants to be able to do what she sees Daddy doing. But the thing she doesn't know is how dangerous the Internet can be and how many things there are that I don't want her to see. And that's where Gab comes in. With Gab, your kids can finally get a phone without all the risk. Gab is the leader in safe phones and watches for kids, teens, and tweens.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
We do. And we're going to keep looking at competing timelines and a lot of times that don't make that much sense. But that's OK. And people who may be misremembering or intentionally misleading, it's always hard to say. And I know this case is hard. We've already had a couple people say they all the names are confused. I get it. It's a complicated case.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
To claim this deal, you must go to hayahealth.com slash prosecute. This deal is not available on their regular website, so go to h-i-y-a-h-e-a-l-t-h dot com slash prosecute and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. Between 6 and 6.30, Cynthia Rico, she's driving by the woods.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So she's driving, the woods are on her right, and she sees what she will later describe as all three boys in the woods by the drainage ditch. And she sees them in the tree line. So according to her, by sometime between 6 and 6.30, all three boys are together and they're sort of at the periphery of this forest. At 6.30, John Mark Byers will return home and he can't find Christopher.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Remember, he's left him there. He's supposed to be cleaning up the carport. He's not there. At 6.30 also, in a continuation of this earlier story that we heard, Jamie Clark Ballard. Remember Jamie Clark Ballard? She lives down sort of away from Chris Byers and away from Michael Moore near Stevie Branch. She lives... I think basically right next to the Hobbs household.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So she's in the southern part of the neighborhood. And she's telling this story that has the kids all down together in the southern part of the neighborhood when everybody else is seeing them somewhere else. So at around 630, she's leaving for Wednesday night church. And she sees the three boys heading in the direction of the Hobbs house.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
She calls out to Christopher and she says, you need to go home. Remember, she knows his brother. So she knows his brother, so it would not be unusual for her as somebody who probably sees herself, not necessarily as like an older sister, but you know how it is. If you had siblings and they were older than you and they had friends, their friends felt like they could boss you around too.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
That was my experience at least. I'm sure most of you have experienced that as well. She sees Christopher and she says, you need to go home. And he says that he doesn't have to do what she tells him to do as this is happening. And as the boys are heading by the Hobbs house, Terry Hobbs steps out. He's in the front yard and he's yelling at the boys to go home.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I just want to pause here for a second, because if this is true, this is a critical point in this story. If this is true, then Terry Hobbs is aware much earlier than he's ever said before of where the boys were, of the fact that they were all three together, and he has told them they need to go home. So he has interjected into the story earlier than you generally think. Now,
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
In a second, I'm going to get to why this story probably isn't true. So also at 630, though, Jamie's mom, Deborah Moyer, she's still in the kitchen. Remember, she she didn't like the boys playing in the backyard because it butts the bayou, I guess, in some way. And she's just worried about kids being back there and they're back there and she's going to say something to them.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So the youth group is coming by at 630 to pick up Jamie to go to church. And she decides now she's going to step out. She's going to say something to the boys. But as she is about to do so, she sees one of them come out riding a bike while the other two boys are running behind this person. She also sees Terry Hobbs standing on the sidewalk telling the boys to go home.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
There's a lot of people, a lot of names, a lot of locations, but just do the best you can work your way through it. I hope this is making it a little bit easier to follow. It's well worth it because this is a case that never ceases to fascinate. We'll just go ahead and dive right in. Why not? Why waste your time?
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now, she didn't really know Hobbs at the time, and in fact, she didn't even know his name, but she recognized him from the neighborhood. Now, both these statements, as I said, very important if they happened. Two different people corroborating these stories. One the daughter heading to church. One the mom. Seems pretty powerful at first, but there's a problem.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The police never spoke to either one of them about the incident. This is probably because the police did not really canvas this part of the neighborhood. They focused almost entirely on the northern side of the neighborhood, closer to Robin Hood Hills where all these sightings are happening. So they never really talked to anybody down there. This was a mistake.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
They should have canvassed the whole neighborhood. But they didn't. These stories come out 16 years later. So 16 years later, in 2009, these two people put out this affidavit making these statements. There are a few things in the affidavits that are demonstrably false. Those things are often pointed to by people as reasons not to believe them. I will say this.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It had been 16 years, so it doesn't surprise me that there are some inconsistencies. But I think the biggest problem here is something we talked about earlier. I don't necessarily think that Jamie Clark Ballard and Deborah Moyer are lying.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But what I do think is very possible is that at some point on a Wednesday around this time, the boys were playing in their backyard and they were riding their bikes. And Terry Hobbs did tell them they needed to go home. And that very easily could have happened at some other time. And then years later, when they're thinking back on this, they're thinking it happened on the day of the murders.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now, they will say that they talked about this. Yeah, it had been 16 years, but they had discussed it over the years. And that may very well be true. But I don't think it necessarily means that this happened on that day. And particularly given that it is so out of whack.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
With everything else we've heard about where the boys were and when they were together, it is very hard to believe this statement, even if it is consistent with some of the alternative theories that maybe Terry Hobbs was involved in the murders.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
There's a few interesting things Alice mentioned in that little chunk. Number one, we have several people seeing the boys going into Robin Hood Hills. We have yet another sighting of four boys going into Robin Hood Hills, which is interesting. And then we have the legendary moment. When Connie Mulder slaps Cody Dollar.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And this is one of those things that I feel like, as I said, this case is just so funny because I relate to it so much. And I can just imagine how some grown woman slapping the son of another woman. Would be would be a big deal and would be something that everybody would be talking about. Stephanie Dollar and her husband are confronting the Mulders.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Her husband and Connie Mulder's husband are about to get in a rumble. The police are being called. They originally go to Stephanie Dollars, but they're not at Stephanie Dollars. So they have to come down here and find him. The people who believe that Jesse Miskelly is innocent will tell you that the police officer just lied.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So if the people from Arkansas are Arkansans, why isn't Arkansas Arkansas?
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And I think there is something telling about that, though, because I think it acknowledges the fact that these police officers should have recognized Jesse. Jesse and his dad got into trouble a lot. It would be not that surprising that the police know them. Now, the police are not focused on Jesse. This is something I feel like people miss. They're focused on the event going on in front of them.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And yes, they testify about this and they testify about generally the people who are around. But it's not that surprising that they might not notice someone who is not actually involved in the event. Happens all the time. But one thing I think you can see here is how narrow this timeline is getting. Because we're getting to a point we don't know exactly when the boys are murdered.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
We don't have an exact time of death. Don't email me and ask whether or not the ME did a time of death thing. One of the biggest red herrings in all of true crime and the CSI effect to the max is this notion that you can figure out when somebody died.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It's very difficult, particularly when they're not found until much later, particularly when they have been in the water for basically 18 hours, which is what happens in this case. The ME is eventually going to give a time of death, which makes no sense. The time of death he gives makes no sense whatsoever. We'll talk about that later.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But I think it is pretty safe to say that by, I'll say 9, just to be safe, that by 9 o'clock, this murder has been completed. And whether or not the cover-up is completed at that point or not, we can talk about more later. But I think by 9 o'clock, the murder would have happened. And we're already getting into this 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock hour when we have things that we know happened.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
They are. That's absolutely right. That's my riddle for the people of Arkansas.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I mean, in trial, the prosecution is going to talk about how the police were in this area all the time. They were in the trailer park all the time. That's true. But this event is sort of striking, right? No pun intended, because once again, you have a grown woman slapping a boy, right? The police are called. Everybody's gathered around.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
This is the kind of thing you would remember that would stand out to you. So I just think it's interesting when you start thinking about this timeline about how tight it is getting if the West Memphis Three are the people who committed this murder. And this is another big event, which we're going to talk in-depth about later.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So between, I'm going to say 6 and 6.40, because it's a little unclear when this happened. Michelle Eccles will say that the whole family, dad, mom, Michelle, and Damien, they leave their house and they go over to a friend's house. They will stay there for around 30 minutes. The daughter of the family will answer the door. But her parents weren't home.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Basically, earlier in the day, this family, like I said, we're going to talk about extensively later on. There was some discussion about the Eccles coming over. They were best friends. They went over there all the time. They go over there. Michelle remembers this because while her mom is writing a note, she sits down to watch. 90210, cultural phenomenon, one of the biggest things going on in 1993.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The kind of thing that might be an anchor for your memory. Now, 90210 began at 7 o'clock. So if she is watching it, that means, and if this is true, and if this happened on this day, then Damien's time is now accounted for up through 7 o'clock. Now, some point after 90210 ends, they leave and they go back home. Michelle will say that she then watched Melrose Place.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So we've got both the mega hits of the early 90s coming into play in this case. So 90210 was on when they left. Later on, she's going to watch Melrose Place, which came on right after 90210. She will say that Damien was around. He was on the phone until around 10.30 that night, and she will say that he talked to Holly George and Jennifer Bearden, who are the two girls that we mentioned earlier.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
At some point thereafter, he talked to Jason Baldwin, and we are going to go into a lot of detail. about this alibi and everyone's alibis later on. If you believe Damien, his day sort of ends with them all going over to see this family, going home, and then he gets on the phone.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And that's an excellent point. Once again, we have dad here. And if dad just moved out the day before, is he really heading over to visit some family friends on this day? Or could this have happened on a different day? And we'll talk about why there's reason to believe that indeed this may have occurred on a different day. Okay, so at 7 o'clock, Dana Moore is now very concerned about Michael.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
She actually goes out into the neighborhood looking for him. He should have been home by then. She ends up at Pam Hobbs' home. She's going to see, is he there with one of his friends? And at some point, and this is also a little unclear, she will speak to Terry Hobbs at some point after this happens. There's going to be an interaction with her and Terry. Terry Hobbs...
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
His whereabouts are really hard to nail down because nobody ever talked to him. If you want to criticize the West Memphis police, there are several areas where you could criticize them. But one that is just glaring is the fact that they really never sat down with these parents and nailed down exactly where they were. They treated them very much as victims, which I understand.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I mean, this is a horrific experience. But everyone knows that in a crime like this, you start with the people closest to the victims and you work your way out. And what they should have been doing is nailing down where everybody was that night so that they could definitively exclude these people as suspects. They really didn't do that with Terry.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The first time Terry really sits down and talks to the police is over a decade later. So, unfortunately, we have reports, we have testimony that Terry is there at some point, that he speaks to Dane at some point. We know at some point, as we're going to talk about in a second, he has an interaction with John Mark Byers. We know all that happens, but the exact time frame when it's happening...
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It's very difficult to say. Okay, it's 7 o'clock. We're starting to get the last sightings of the boys. Christopher Wall sees Chris Byers and at least one of the other boys headed towards Robin Hood. At this point, all three were definitely together, so if this sighting is accurate, he probably just missed one of them.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Remember, only two of the boys had bikes, so it's possible he just didn't see the third boy. Now, a few days after the murders, an anonymous caller would tell police that Wall liked to hang around young kids, and he was actually brought in for questioning. Now, he would pass a polygraph, and he ended up having a solid alibi.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
As I recall, I think he sees the kids as he's either going to school or going to work. I don't remember exactly what it is, but they're able to account for him after this. So that potential lead falls away. You can see why they were interested in it, because he's one of the last people to say he sees the boys. And then they get this tip. And we know that can be something that killers do.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
When it comes to recording spaces, there's no pride here. No pride. Alice and I said we're going to dive right in, and here we are. But Alice keeps losing recording spaces to babies, which I guess if you're going to lose a recording space, that's a good way to do it.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
They put themselves in sort of the heroic position of seeing the boys or finding the body, something like that. So they looked into him, but he is cleared.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
This is, as Alice said, this is something that he says decades later when he's completely changed his view on the case and he's decided that Terry Hobbs is involved. All of a sudden, he recalls this critical moment. The murders would have happened where Terry Hobbs is essentially at the scene. It's highly unlikely.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Let's dive in. So we've been talking about the timeline. We've gotten to the day of the murders. And we've been going through sort of everything that was happening that day and tracking the boys. And by the boys, I mean the three eight-year-olds. Throughout this neighborhood is they are they're playing together. They're playing separately. Sometimes you see two boys. Sometimes you see three.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I don't find that to be that unusual, but it's just a little unclear where everybody was. And that's unfortunate because John Mark Byers, much like Terry Hobbs, is going to attract a lot of attention as a possible person who was involved in this crime. Now, he attracted attention a lot earlier than Terry Hobbs.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
He was a very early alternative suspect by people who believe the West Memphis Three are innocent. So between seven and eight. So we've got Damien's watching 90210 and Melrose Place. Jason's playing Street Fighter 2. Jesse, between 7 and 8, supposedly arrives at Dyess, Arkansas to wrestle. Dyess is about 45 minutes from West Memphis.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Others in the wrestling group would report that Jesse was playing around and having a good time that night, including bumping his head pretty hard in a stunt gone wrong. This is wrestling. They're practicing to be in the WWE one day. At the time, it was WWF. I missed that. And so whether this happened that night or not is going to be something that is debated.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
When we talk about the alibis for all three, we will discuss this in detail. But if all of them are telling the truth and if Schwarting's telling the truth, then all of their time is accounted for. If you believe these three stories, then they do have alibis, not just for around the time this happened, but for the time the crimes would be occurring.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Guys, we want to talk about one of our favorite podcasts and one of our favorite creators, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps. You know him as the New York Times bestselling author of 46 books. He's an investigative journalist and winner of the Excellence in Investigative Journalism Award from the Society of Professional Journalists. If there's one thing we need more of...
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
In true crime, it's people who actually understand how to research and chase a story, and he has absolutely done that. In fact, he consulted on the first season of the hit Showtime cable television series, Dexter. And he is the executive producer, writer, and co-host of the number one Apple true crime podcast franchise, Paper Ghosts.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Sometimes you're going to see four. And there are all these people who see the boys. They know the kids. There's no reason to think that they're not accurate, except for two things that I think are worth remembering. Number one, we're talking about times, and it's always hard when you're thinking back when something happened when it wasn't significant.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So, when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Homes.com. We've done your homework. So at 749, the sun sets and the full moon has already risen. The day had a high of 73 and a low of 59, which is cool for May in Arkansas, but a really nice day. The golden hour or the blue hour begins.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So this is something that's always important to note because people often tie things to sunset because unlike the actual time, that is something that you remember a little bit better. But what sunset means is different for everyone. We talked about this in the Adnan Syed case. You can point to, well, this is civil twilight. So when he says sunset, he must mean that.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But in reality, it's not going to be dark in West Memphis, like truly dark. until 830 or so. So what sunset means is a little difficult to say, but officially sunsets at 749. And then you got another hour or so of daylight before the sun finally sets fully.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
We're talking about the most insignificant thing possible, seeing some boys riding their bikes on a warm May evening. That would not be important to you until a crime occurred.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So at eight o'clock, John Mark Byers returns home. Remember, he's been doing these loops. He talked to the police at 730. He now goes home. At this point, the sun is set. It is starting to get dark and it will be dark soon.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
soon so he calls the police and he reports chris missing this has actually been held against him in future years like why is he so worried why is he calling the police he must know something Recall, he spoke to a police officer. The police officer told him to call the police at eight. I don't find this unusual at all. As a parent, I don't find this unusual at all.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I think it's a little unusual that people think it's unusual. So but nevertheless, he is calling to let the police know that Christopher is missing now at this point. John Mark Byers, he only knows that his son is missing. But right around then, Dana Moore knocks on his door. And she tells him that Chris is actually with Stevie Branch and Michael Moore.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now, remember, she saw them together at some point and she tells him that she did see them on their bikes. They walk down the road in a little bit of a direction towards Robin Hood Hills.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And I always find this to me, this is kind of a chilling moment in this case because they're walking down the road and they're on the side of the road is Chris's skateboard, the same skateboard he was riding in the street when he got in trouble earlier today.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It seems like he rode that skateboard a little bit down the street and then at that point made the transition onto the back of one of the boys' bikes. And there's a couple of things I think are worth pointing out at this point. They always talk about how important the timelines are. I think we can say just based on the timeline that John Mark Byers had nothing to do with this.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
John Mark Byers is going to be a suspect, an alternative suspect. It is impossible for him to have done this. Remember, the last sighting of the boys is around seven o'clock. We know he is driving around looking for his son at that time. And in fact, at seven thirty, he's talking to a cop. So you would have to believe that essentially people see the kids going into the woods at seven.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Somehow he gets into the woods, kills them, does all the things we're going to talk about later on. He would have to do hides the bodies, leaves and then goes and talks to a police officer.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And then 30 minutes later, he's calling the police. So even if you think, OK, fine, he talked to the cops first and then he found it. Well, once again, you have the same problem. The timing issue immediately appears that there's really no way he could have pulled this off. And what is amazing about this case is you will hear so often about.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The rush to judgment on the West Memphis Three and how it was a witch hunt and they were attacked because of how they looked and how they acted and all this other stuff. And yet the same people making that argument, the makers of Paradise Lost, the author of The Devil's Knot, a book that is often presented as this wonderful work of journalism.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
demonize John Mark Byers for the same reason without apparently doing even the basic research that if you had done, you would see he really couldn't have done this. It's basically impossible for John Mark Byers to have pulled this off. I'm willing to say it is impossible for him to have pulled this off.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now, because John Mark Byers will later have a change of heart and will decide that the West Memphis Three are innocent, all the people who used to say he's guilty now say he's innocent. But they say he's innocent because he supports the people that they like. I'm saying he's innocent because the evidence indicates that there's really no way he could have done this.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So I think we're going to talk more about John Mark Byers as we go, but maybe not as much as you would expect, because it just feels like he's a sideshow. He was very much a sideshow in the documentaries, but he's not responsible for whatever happened. Okay, well, now that we've exonerated John Mark Byers from any responsibility in this crime, we're going to go ahead and stop for today.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
We talked about a lot of stuff today, a lot of things that happened, a lot of things that are really important, and we came to some conclusions on John Mark Byers, on Jamie Clark Ballard, several things that happened. So I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com. Add Prosecutors Pod for all your social media.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
If you want to watch us record these episodes, you can join Patreon. If you don't want to watch us record them, but you want to get them early and ad-free, you can join Patreon. And for as little as $3 a month, you can do that. Join the gallery where the discussion on this case is going hot and heavy. We have so much more to talk about. We're only three episodes into this.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
As I said, we are taking our time. I hope you're enjoying this deep dive. It is going to be a deep dive. I do think it is worth your time and I'm enjoying covering this case, but I'm excited to get to the end just because I really want to know what you guys think. about all this. So hopefully you will stay in touch with us and talk to us about this case and engage with us on this case.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And if you know things or if you're someone out there who somehow was involved in this, we would like to talk to you. We have reached out to a lot of people who were in the area at the time with some limited success. And I want to talk to more of them. So if you're hearing this live and you have something to say, please shoot us an email. We can talk to you. Happy to do it anonymously.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
If you have information, we want to learn as much about this case as possible.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now, this is a Hunger Kids type case. There's no question about that. And the other thing, the thing that just continuously amazes me, we're looking at a picture right now of an aerial picture. I think this is from the beginning of Paradise Lost. And it's a photograph of the interstate, and then you see the truck stop, and you see the woods.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And where this happened, and we've said this before, but I'm just going to keep saying it, where this happened was just such a small area. The parking lot for the truck stop is at least five times as big as these woods. I mean, these are not woods. These are, this is, as Alice said a couple episodes ago, it's a football field where you left some trees. Yeah, to block out the sound.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I mean, that's really all it is. And yet this horrific murder happened. I mean, within, you could see the Mayfair apartments. You could hear the interstate. You could walk 20 yards and be at Blue Beacon truck wash. Just an astonishing crime. And one that happened so quickly. And yeah, I mean, I'm with Alice. This is one, this is a very interesting case. It's a great case. People love this case.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But wow, it's the one that makes you take a step back. So on that depressing note, Alice, do you want to answer a question or do you need to go?
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Alice is in the middle of sleep training. So every episode is a little, you never know.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
There you go. Everything's lining up. OK, so this is from LBCW. LBCW says he sees a lot of injustice in the world. Not a lawyer, though. He's a software developer and he wants to know how he can support justice as a software developer. Oh, I'll say about that. So much, actually. So much. I mean, now is your time. I mean, all justice is going to be done by software soon. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And that's the second important point. They do this every day. So we have to assume that some of these sightings are actually happening the day of the murders. And remember, yes, the police are going to start canvassing the neighborhood relatively soon, but it's still been a few days.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
That's such a good point. And just one example of how you can do this. And you see this all the time. There are people on Twitter who've invented programs that allow them to very quickly
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
identify things you know you have these government websites that tell you everything all the money's being spent right this has been very much in the news lately well there are people on twitter who what they do is they like develop this software that allows them to very quickly go through all the different contracts and say, Hey, this is a contract. I don't like this one.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
You shouldn't like it either. Right. And whether you agree with that or not, it's the fact that they're doing it. That is the kind of thing where you have this massive amount of information that you could never get through on your own. And there are ways to do it. And you have to be creative and you have to be thoughtful, but there's so much out there.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And you have these people who are thinking back, they're racking their mind to try and remember things that might be helpful. And they want to be helpful and they want to remember. And there is a sort of psychological thing. We've talked about this before. Everyone likes being part of the story. They like to feel helpful.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So what I would encourage you to do is number one, don't be discouraged because frankly, in your question, you kind of sound discouraged. I don't want you to be discouraged because there's so much opportunity. How exactly to tap into that is a little bit more difficult. But really think about your particular skills. And as Alice said, just start sort of volunteering.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Find a cause you really care about in the law. And take the Innocence Project, right? I mean, think about all the different applications they get from thousands of people around the country. who were saying, I'm innocent, I'm innocent. They have to sift through all that, right? I mean, maybe they could use somebody who could develop some software that would help them do an initial cut.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
You know, I mean, there's all sorts of different opportunities if you are thoughtful about what you're doing and if you're willing to volunteer. And I'll just say this, you may think, well, I can't volunteer. I need, I still need income. Totally get that. But one thing I feel like a lot of people in this day and age forget is a
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I was going back to Hannah who just like emails us out of the blue when we got 27 listeners. She being one of them. Yeah, exactly. And says, hey, I really like your podcast. I'd like to do some art for your podcast. And I was like, well, we have no money. And she's like, that's fine. I'll do it for free. And so for a while, she did it for free.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And then we were like, you know, hey, can we pay you like $25 each, right?
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Because she's amazing. But now that, you know, things are going a little bit better. It's a much more professional relationship. And she's the fees we have are much more professional. Yeah. Not that she could survive on that, but the point being that she started off just volunteering to do something.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Exactly. And from doing artwork with us, she's gotten other opportunities from other podcasts. So be willing to really step out of your comfort zone. And I think you will find yourself where you want to be. Great question. Great question. OK, well, we will be back next week with more on this. We are moving through this timeline. We're getting into, I mean, the darkest part of this timeline.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
At this point in the timeline, either the murders are occurring or they are over and they're being covered up. And as we go through this last part, you're going to see things that happen that I think color your view on when this stuff happens. Some pretty significant things, I think. In fact, some things that are mentioned in other podcasts, but I don't feel like people talk about enough.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So if they saw the boys say the day before, they might transpose that onto this day. And that's going to affect our timeline. And that may be one reason you are seeing some of these sightings which seem impossible. They're all happening at the same time. They're on opposite sides of the neighborhood. How is that possible? With all that said, let's get back into the timeline.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
They're going to happen right around this period. And then we'll move on to the next day and just the horrific scene when the bodies of the boys are found. Well, that's all we have for tonight, but we will be back next week. Until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are The Prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Well, you're supposed to be able to do it where you can hear out of both.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Well, I can hear you. I can hear you out of both, but I can only hear me out of one. Oh.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But see, you know, my kids are always pushing the button. intelligent in their barbs yeah yeah like it's like it was something that's gonna hurt like you saying nobody listens to my podcast i see the numbers so that's not gonna hurt i need you to give me something good like hit me hit my looks or something like hit my looks yeah i mean there's plenty to make fun of here right but all right
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
We ended last week with Alan Bailey Jr. in 545. His father, Otto Bailey Jr., will confirm his son's story. He says that he and his son see Stevie Branch and Michael Moore as they are backing out of their driveway to head to baseball practice.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Otto says that he sees them as they are riding their bikes down the road towards Mayfair Apartments, which is over by where the bayou is and the forest is and everything else. He will also say, much like his son, that they were wearing backpacks. As we said last time...
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
unclear what this backpack reference is to I think and I will correct myself if I'm wrong later and I'm sure someone will correct me as well that Allen and Otto are the only people who say that the boys were wearing backpacks and backpacks weren't found later on when the bodies are recovered so Otto Bailey will later be called in for telling another CB operator that he was going to kill him like the three boys were killed
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Not a great thing to say. Now, apparently, Otto was like an early troll. But he didn't do it on, you know, obviously there wasn't Twitter or chat rooms. If there were, that's where Otto would be today. But he was a CB troll. So he'd get on the CB radio and start trolling everybody else who's on the CB. This was a different world. I don't really know what to say about it.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But he said this to another CB operator. And, of course, that person immediately turned around and told the police. The police were able to clear Otto. And they do note in their report that this was something Otto was known for, was running his mouth on the CB to the extent. I mean, just to show you, things don't change. If you think that things are bad now with the trolls. Trolls be trolls.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
to the extent that he was once shot by another CB operator for something he had said. So there you go. This guy, he's a serious CB troll. In any event, Sheila Bailey, who was one of the other Baileys, will also confirm this sighting. So you have Otto, you've got Alan, and you've got Sheila all saying they saw two of the boys together at 545. So I think even if we're not sure about the backpack,
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And this is one of those sightings. And we're starting to sort of gather momentum. So up until this point, we're seeing sightings around, but they're maybe not fitting into a narrative. But we're starting to see more of that. It's six o'clock. It's only 15 minutes later. You have 15-year-old Ben Crafton, and he sees Stevie Branch and Michael Moore biking down the street.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So the same two boys together on their bikes headed down the street. He also says that he sees Kim Williams, a fourth grader, riding her bike with them. He describes the boys as having a new red bike and an older green bike that looked like it had been painted several times.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
This is the kind of detail, and it's funny, coming from a 15-year-old, this is the kind of detail that's really helpful because Stevie indeed had a new red and black renegade bike. I had a red and black renegade bike when I was a kid, so... Just another one of those similarities. I mean, these kids were just so much like everybody else growing up at this time.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Michael, in fact, had an older green bike. And I believe, and I haven't been able to confirm this, and I'm not sure how important it is or not, but... I believe Michael's bike was actually his sister's bike that had been repurposed for him. So I'm going to say that you guys out there can help confirm that for me if it's true. So he sees this and he sees Kim Williams.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we continue our look at the timeline in the West Memphis 3 case. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my meticulous co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The police will speak to Kim Williams and she will confirm that she saw Stevie and Michael riding their bikes, heading into Robin Hood Hills. in the area thereof between about 5.30 and 6, so consistent with this timeline. And she will also see their bikes parked off of Goodwin. which connects to West Macaulay at the entrance into Robin Hood Woods. And this goes back to something I said last week.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I think there was some coming and going from these woods. At this point, there are only two boys. They're going in. It seems like they're going into the woods and their bikes are actually parked on the street.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Their bikes will not later be found on the street, and it's unlikely that whoever murdered them would have gone out to the street to get those bikes and to bring them back to where they are found. So most likely, if they did go into the woods at that point, they came out of the woods. At around the same time, Kim is going to report seeing three older boys coming out.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So she sort of sees the boys going in. She sees three older boys coming out of the woods. Now, this may immediately spark your attention. Oh, three older boys, the West Memphis Three. Well, if they are the actual West Memphis Three, they're not the ones who were arrested. Two of them were black. Kim said she saw these boys go into one of the houses on Goodwin.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now, Kim never saw Christopher Byers, which is consistent with what Ben Crafton said. The sighting is also somewhat consistent with Dana Moore's. We're going to talk about that in a second. Though Dana would claim to have seen Chris Byers.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And this is one of the difficulties in this case. So much of this case hinges on who you believe. And do you find people credible? And obviously you're trying to establish both the timeline of the three victims and the three accused. But especially as to the latter, there's so many conflicting stories. And as Alice said, so many of them involve Damien's father.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, a well-liked couple is murdered in an affluent Georgia suburb in one of the most bizarre crimes you've ever heard. Who committed the Lake Oconee murders? Hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined by my dearly missed co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We are doing it live, and it's good to see our patrons who we've also not seen. See, those of you who are listening every week, you're like, what are you talking about? I've heard you every week. But if you're a patron, you know how the sausage is made. You know that we've taken quite a bit of a break.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So we're about to dive into the timeline. Before they do that, I'm going to do one more aside. My greatest golfing victory was in Lake Oconee. I was playing at Reynolds Plantation. Reynolds Plantation Golf Course. I was playing there. It was with two friends, and there was a par three where the club pro was like there. And basically, you could bet that you could get closer to the hole
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
than the club pro. And if you did it, you got five times whatever you bet to spend at the clubhouse, right? So you didn't, you know, you had to spend it there, but, and you got your money back. So there were three of us and he led us to do one bet and all three of us got the chance. And my friend, it was, he was on, it was a business trip. I was sort of tagging along.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So he put a hundred dollars down and the guy hit it up there pretty close to the hole. Two friends did it, nowhere close. I hit it and it was the best golf shot I've ever hit in my entire life. Probably the closest I ever get to a hole in one. It was like right next to the hole. So I beat the club pro. We got the $500. It was awesome. So that's my connection to this area.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
If I won $5 million, I would not be doing this show with you. Sorry. No offense to everybody.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So if this episode is kind of rough and weird, just know it's because we haven't done this in so long we forgot how to do it.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And this was right around when this happened, actually. It was back around this time.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
That's a good point. Wow. Delete that part. Jason, edit that out. Okay. So May 1st, 2014. We're going all the way back.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
to may 1st and russell is captured on surveillance footage inside a publix grocery store this is important not because anything weird happened there but because this is the last time russell is caught on camera or seen outside of his home he buys and this is the kind of thing i feel like when you're in your 80s you go to publix and buy he bought two cucumbers and a loaf of bread.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
That was his purchase. So then he heads back home. Wasn't the last time he was seen. The next day, May 2nd, which is a Friday, he's seen by a neighbor taking a walk through the neighborhood, which was something that he was known to do. And Shirley completed a crossword puzzle from that day's newspaper. And the reason this is important is because we're not entirely sure when they were killed.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
But what we can say for certain is they were definitely alive on Thursday, and they were definitely alive at least for some portion of Friday, May 2nd. So that brings us to May 3rd, 2014. So as Alice said, the Dermans had accepted an invitation to attend a Kentucky Derby watch party at a neighbor's home, but they did not show up to the party. Now look, I don't know where all you guys are from.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
A lot of you are from the South. Maybe this is true other places, but in the South, The Kentucky Derby is kind of a big deal. A lot of people do this. They have big parties. We've had Kentucky Derby parties. I've been to the Kentucky Derby many times. I think I've told this story on the podcast about how that was always a dream of mine to go to the Kentucky Derby. So, you know, big deal, right?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And it's the kind of thing where people... It's not just like... like a football game, like, hey, come over and watch the game with me, and no big deal if you don't make it. It's a thing. You put a lot of effort into it. You probably spent a lot of money on it. You'd like to know how many people are going to come.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So if you say you're going to go, the good neighborly thing to do if you're not going to make it is to let someone know. And the Dermans were the kind of people who would have done that. They would not have just not shown up and never said anything about it, but they do not show up to the party often.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
That's true. We do talk to each other a lot more when we're doing this. I don't remember the last time I talked to you not on the podcast. I mean, we like text and stuff.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
that day which is held you know the call to the post is around five o'clock five between five and six o'clock so five or six o'clock in the afternoon is when the actual race happens and the party probably would have began a couple hours before that so the mail in the dermans mailbox would later be discovered to be dating back to saturday may third and the combination of these factors the kentucky derby
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And the mail and a couple other things we're going to talk about will lead investigators to decide that the Dermans were either killed earlier in the day on Saturday or late at night going into the morning of Friday night, Saturday morning.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
There you go. Except this case. Except this case. I'm just starting to care less and less what people think. So if you just want to talk for 30 minutes, we can start doing that. We can be like My Favorite Murder, where they talk for like an hour before they get to the case, and they spend like 10 minutes on the case, and they're done.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So let's go ahead and stop for a second and talk a little bit about this, because I think we're already seeing some things that are clues about what exactly happened here. Number one, as Alice mentioned, which door was open? The back door. Now, this home, it sits on a cul-de-sac deep in this neighborhood, this gated community.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
In order to get into this community, and, you know, gated community is sometimes strong, right? Like, you think there's actually a gate, and some places are, and maybe in those places, there is one. But I think it's more, from my understanding, there's a guard in a guardhouse, the gate's open, there's some video cameras, and you basically drive in, you wave at the guard, and you keep going.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
But that's one way in this neighborhood, right? You have to drive for a while to get to the Dermons' house, and that's the only way in if you drive. And then you would pull up to the front of the house, and presumably you'd go in through the front door. Or you can come in by boat. The Dermons, as Alice noted, have a boat dock.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
If you tied up at the boat dock and you headed up to the house, the first door you would reach is... is the back door. And if you wanted to leave the house and go down to the boat dock, what door would you probably use? The back door. Which door is open? The back door.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So this is already starting to tell us that there's some evidence here already that whoever did this probably came in and left through the unlocked back door, which would naturally take them down to the boat dock.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
The other thing that you have to immediately think about is this murder took some level of physicality and dexterity because this wasn't... Anybody can shoot somebody, but if you're going to decapitate someone, that takes a little bit of work. Now, as we're going to learn later, Russell was very likely dead when he was decapitated. Nevertheless...
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
you're going to have to be someone who could get down on the ground with a knife and complete a decapitation. That automatically tells you, you know, if you're thinking, is this another 88-year-old? Probably not.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And as you noted, you know, this person obviously feels like at the time this happens, they have all the time in the world because they have time to remove the head. They have time to do the towels, but they're also trying to buy time down the road.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
People are like, you need to get to the point. It's like, whatever. This is my show, man.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
you know they don't want this murder being discovered for instance the next morning they don't want the paper guy to come throw the paper out and see blood seeping out from underneath the garage door and call the cops they want some time in between when this happens to get away slash create an alibi whatever they need to do in that period of time and that automatically makes you think
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
is this someone who is in some way connected to them because you would think and i think if you talk to people in the behavioral analysis unit you know if you talk to julia over on the consult she would probably tell you that taking time to do something like this to delay discovery usually means it's not a random act of violence because what you do in a random act of violence is you kill the person and then you get out
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Because getting away is the most important thing. Because if you can get away, no one's ever really going to be able to tie you to that particular murder. They don't do that. For some reason, they are seeking to delay discovery of the bodies. So this poor couple, they come in. They find the bodies to give you some idea.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
It's the journey. It's the friends we made along the way. So y'all need to chill out. Sorry. Here we are getting feisty. We come back. We come back and we do this. And what do we do? We're insulting everybody.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You know, they're looking around the house and they see nothing out of the ordinary. Like there is no indication to them that anything has happened in the house with the exception of things like the newspapers in the driveway.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And another thing that they are not going to find and the police are not going to find is a missing knife. Whoever did this, it seems as though they brought the knife with them that they used to commit this decapitation. And the police are going to say this was a pretty smooth cut. This was a sharp knife cut.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You know, we get too graphic here, but you could tell that, you know, this wasn't like a raggedly done thing when they did this. So it seems like this person came prepared with a sharp knife to do this thing that they were going to do. So this couple, they come in, they eventually make it to the garage. And when you open the door, you can actually see anything.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Because the body, Russell's body, is actually towards the back of the garage, towards those garage doors, behind the car. And I think this is an interesting question, too, because you're going to have to ask yourself at some point, how did Russell, in his slippers and his boxers and undershirt and robe, get to that point where this happened to him? Was he killed there? Was he taken there?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
That's going to be important when you're trying to figure out exactly how this, went down. So the police show up, the investigators show up, they're alerted to this murder. You know, it's all hands on deck. When they arrive, unfortunately, they don't find a lot that gives them any leads. There's just not a lot of evidence in this case. There is no sign of forced entry.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
There is nothing missing from the house. And this includes high value items and small items. It rustled on some Rolex watches that were worth some money. There's jewelry. There's money. There's electronics. None of it is missing. There's no indication the house has been ransacked. Nobody even tried to make it look like a robbery. The back door, as we said, was unlocked.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Now, it's unclear whether that door was always unlocked or if someone unlocked it. And this is something that's just hard to say. This is the kind of community where you could leave your back door unlocked because you're going out there to sit and drink coffee and look at the lake and never think anything of it. Never think anybody's going to come in.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So it's not entirely clear whether it was open for someone or whether it was just always open.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Right, exactly. And, you know, the other thing we can talk about, and I'm sure we'll talk about this some more, but those of you who've lived on a lake, boats are loud. I mean, nobody's rowboating across the lake. They're using a motor. Even if you're at a pretty low speed, it's going to be somewhat loud and sound travels across lakes.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And certainly when you're going at any speed, you're going to hear the boat. One thing that I think is interesting about this case and something to think about, could someone have pulled a boat up to this home without them knowing about it? You know, I'm not going to say it's impossible.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
But you would either have to make yourself very conspicuous because you're moving so slow and silently across the lake so as to try not to make noise. Or you're going to make noise and somebody would be like, that sounds like a boat pulling up to our dock. And that could also tell you something about who this is, because if it's someone they knew.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
or someone somehow connected to them, that might not be something that would arouse suspicion. And it might be something that would lead you to unlock the back door, for instance.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And they had neighbors. Now, the lots next to their home were vacant. I mean, they were like forested. So this is lakefront property. It's not like you're living right on top of each other. But in all these little coves, usually you have a number of people who are sort of around the cove that have access to the lake.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So I think it is it's hard to say for certain, but my understanding is there were people who would have been able to see things going on on the lake, but apparently did not. So the police looked around and they found the same thing that the neighbors found. The house was basically spotless and untouched.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And it was so strange that the police wondered whether maybe Russell was killed somewhere else and brought back to the house. There was so little indication of any kind of struggle. The only exception to the spotlessness of the house was the unmade bed. And that led people to believe that the Dermons were either killed at night or early in the morning.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You know, if this were a robbery gone wrong, you imagine you hear something, you go to check it out, death follows. There was no obvious motive for the crime. And of course, the first thing the police are thinking is, where is Shirley? You have this brutal murder of a relatively wealthy family, though not extraordinarily wealthy, particularly for the area.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
they were not rich for this area there were people with a lot more money who lived on this lake than them but nevertheless a massive search begins for shirley the police were great in this case i mean they put up billboards instantly all over georgia with her pictures on it the surrounding area is combed they're searching the land they're searching the lake they're bringing out the dogs everything two things they do find
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
They find Shirley's purse and her phone inside the home. They've thrown up the missing posters. They're asking for tips. A reward is offered. They're treating this as a kidnapping. The FBI is brought in, all hands on deck, but nothing is discovered.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Yes, Lake Oconee, we went there early on in the podcast. It was after we had done the Michael Peterson case, though, because they're all about owls there. There's like a statue of an owl. We took a picture with a statue of an owl. And then there was a raptor expert who had the owl.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So, when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Homes.com. We've done your homework.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And I would just note, there's only like 20,000 people in the whole county. So 100 people showing up is a good number.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And they see that her... Fishing, hunting, blueberry picking, hiking, basically anything that involves being out there.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And they said the owl did it. They're fully on board with the owl doing it. So those of you who don't think the owl could have possibly done it, just know the experts say you're wrong. And if there's one thing we always do is defer to experts, unless we disagree with them. So, but yeah, I remember driving to that trip and seeing the sign for Locaconi and thinking, huh, we need to do this case.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So a couple things to note about this. The first is, according to Scott Peterson, you can't dump a body out of a boat that's weighted down with concrete without tipping over the boat. So I'm not sure how they managed that. The other thing, this area of the lake, one of the things that's interesting about it, this lake is a man-made lake. So when it was filled up, there were a bunch of trees.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
There's a lake near my house that's like this as well. There's a bunch of trees. They were never cut down. They just left the trees there. And so this area was in that area. And so the police think it's also possible that her body would have gone even deeper were it not for the trees.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And so that where they dumped her actually made it easier for her body to rise to the surface because of the trees there. maybe sort of holding the body up. I know where I'm from, we'll have droughts on occasion. Then the tops of the trees will start to stick out of the water and that's when they find all the bodies. They actually start to float to the surface or they find them in the trees.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Like the tree limbs start sticking out of the water and they find bodies that have been there for a very long time. So that's a possibility as well. The other thing, the concrete blocks did not come from the Derman's house. There's no indication that those cinder blocks were there. Which means whoever did this brought them with them, which goes back to how well prepared this person was to do this.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
The other thing she was tied, apparently, you know, it's funny because you listen, listen and read various things about this and. The police are careful about what they say, but every now and then somebody says something and you're like, that's new information. And you wonder if they meant to say that, if they were right about that. Apparently the blocks were tied to her with parachute cord.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
which we talked about when we did the D.B. Cooper case about he used parachute cord to tie the bag to himself. So apparently that was used. I don't know what that says, but it's not rope, right? To me, that's another thing, which is another item that this person would have brought with them for this. And all this is making you think, you might think, what's Occam's razor here?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And that was probably four years ago now. And the case is still unsolved. We're talking about a murder that happened in 2014, the murder of Russell and Shirley Derman. And I got to tell you guys, this case is one of the strangest cases for so many different reasons.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Nobody ever robs places around there, but somebody decided to rob this house. They heard them. They went down there. Things went wrong and they had to get rid of the bodies. Well, it seems like they came prepared to both murder someone and dispose of the bodies in a very specific way when they arrived at that house.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And we've only gotten started. We're going to go ahead and wrap it up for this week and finish this in a part two. But Alice is right. One thing that should already be striking you is there are some... We said this was going to be weird. And we weren't lying to you. And it's weird in a very specific way. It's almost... If this were a murder plot in a movie...
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Number one, and we're going to talk about some of their background, but Russell and Shirley, when they were murdered, Russell was 88 years old. And Shirley was 87. I mean, these are people who are very elderly. They're at a point in their life, you know, they were thinking about maybe doing some sort of assisted living thing.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
you would be like, this doesn't make any sense. Why would you do that? Why would you do this? Why are you weighing somebody's body down as if you want to hide it forever when you left the other body there decapitated? It would be one thing if you took them both to the lake and weighed them down, and then they just disappeared. Maybe they started a new life.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
People would think they were living in Mexico or whatever. They wanted to get away from the kids. I mean, who knows, right? But you do this very specific thing, and it's only going to get weirder. Next week, we're going to talk about the cause of death in both cases. You're probably thinking, well, Russell was decapitated, so that probably has something to do with that. Nope, you'd be wrong.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And Shirley's cause of death is also strange because it doesn't really make sense when you connect it to Russell's cause of death.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
and there's a lot of information we're going to go through and we're going to get into theories and talk about some possibilities in this case and also just a whole bunch of questions we've already started to highlight them strange things about this case and i feel like maybe if you could answer some of these questions you would have a better idea of what happened in this case though frankly maybe not i don't know this is this is one of
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
The strangest cases you're ever going to see. And I think there's a reason that now, 10 years later, we still haven't solved this case. Going on 11 years later, we still haven't solved this case. But we're hoping, as always, that maybe somebody out there has some information. If you do have that information, shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Contact us on all your social media at ProsecutorsPod for Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, if it still exists by the time you hear this podcast. We put all that effort into creating TikTok, and now it's, who knows, might go away.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Anyway, if you want to support us, you can always join Patreon and see us record these live, give your input as we're recording, or worst case, hear these episodes early and ad-free. I know some of you hate the ads so much for only $3 a month. You can listen to every episode without a single ad. So there you go. Alice, do you want to answer a question before we go? Let's do that.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Okay. Do you have anything you want to tell the family about the newest addition to your family? You got any little anecdotes or anything?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
When the police went into their house, they found a bunch of brochures for that. I mean, they're not at the stage of life, typically, where you're making a lot of enemies. And we're gonna talk about victimology in this case, but also the manner in which they were killed and the things that were done with their bodies.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
OK, well, yes, Alice, we were all praying for you and so glad that everything worked out. It is a it is difficult to to explain what it feels like. It's the most helpless feeling imaginable. And like you said, you know, you just want to you just want to hold your baby and you can't do it. And our little guy.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I feel like initially when we got him home, he was a little standoffish because he wasn't used to being held. But now he's like the sweetest, most cuddly toddler ever. And I think he's like making up for lost time. He's a sweetheart. Okay. Larissa, this is a weird question, Larissa. I don't know what you're going to tell me. This is a weird question, but we said we'd ask the questions.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So I don't know if Alice is going to feel comfortable answering this question. Oh, no.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
This is one of those cases that is so inexplicable and has so many strange things about it that your mind will go in all sorts of directions with this one. This is definitely one you can fall down a rabbit hole on, though I'll warn you, it is so mysterious in part because whoever did this left behind very little evidence Of their presence.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Larissa will probably post on Reddit about how I made fun of her question, how much we get that sometimes. It's like, if you can't handle the heat, don't ask the question. Okay. Larissa wants to know, what are each of your specific faiths?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I don't know how much depth she wants in this. Why would I not want to answer?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Communion or whatever? I mean, I don't know. It's just a pretty personal question. Your specific faiths.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Yeah. Well, everybody knows the answer to that question.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Well, I'm a Christian. I don't know that specific enough. I go to the Church of Christ where we live and have my entire life.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I know. I got kicked out of a church once. That happened to me. Oh, that story made me cry. You know, I guess when it comes to communion, I'm more of a symbolic person than transubstantiation or consubstantiation.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
The Nicene Creed is like fine, but I don't know that it's necessary. St. Augustine. I never really liked him, frankly.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
She just said Saint whatever. And it could have been Episcopalian.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So I think we should go ahead, now that we've talked for 10 minutes, go ahead and dive right in. Right, Alice?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
It's like I went to a wedding once and the guy was Catholic and the girl was raised Protestant, but was converting or had converted to Catholicism. But we go to the it's a Catholic wedding. So we're doing the whole Catholic mass. But half of us.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
are catholic and half of us are not and at some point they do that our father and so you know for catholics i think i guess catholics our father ends with you know forgive us our trespasses and those from you know trespass oh and then the next part yeah But for us, the next part is, you know, for thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Well, so like the Catholic people stop and the Protestants keep going. It was a trick. And then everybody starts laughing and the priest makes a joke about how like, you know, weddings bringing people together, right? It was pretty funny. But anyway. That is true. There you go, Larissa. Now you know.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
It's been more like six and a half, so whatever. Okay. So Russell and Shirley Dermond, as I said, they were an elderly couple living in Putnam County, Georgia in the spring of 2014. They had been married for years. 68 years. That is a long time to be alive, much less be married to somebody.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You really, yeah, committed.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Okay, yeah, good job, Larissa. We'll give you props. Okay, guys, we're going to let Alice go to bed because she is a trooper and has...
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We're back. So, you know, just back to normal. I don't know about that. For those of you who may be watching these live, we may be a little unorganized, disorganized in our lives.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
how we do this and when we do this so you'll just have to just watch out for the announcements but we'll be back soon because we got to finish this story this wild story and give you our thoughts on it i hope you're already hooked i'm sure you are this is a wild one Okay. Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us. So glad to be back.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
For those of you listening, when this comes out, Happy New Year. It's January 2025. I hope this year is amazing for you and you get everything you want. Well, we will be back next week with more on this case. But until then, I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And we are the prosecutors. Okay.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I got what came after one. All right. You ready for me to go live?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Am I not speaking loud enough?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We're back. That's right.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So this is a couple who has seen a lot together, been through a lot together, and are sort of, you know, I mean, they're definitely in the end of the, what's a good way to put this? The sunset of life. The, you know, the evening of life's journey or whatever. And they're spending it together. The twilight. There you go. And they're doing it in style, though.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I mean, they're living in this beautiful place in Georgia. If you've never been to Lake Oconee, it is absolutely gorgeous. And it is the type of place where a lot of wealthy or retired people who've saved up their money over their lives go. The kind of place doesn't have a whole lot of crime. Almost none. You know, once again, we're very much in Dateline territory here.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
The kind of place where nothing bad ever happens. And two people who lit up the room. I mean, they were beloved by everybody they knew. We're not going to find that they had any secret enemies. We're not going to find a whole lot of skeletons in their closet. And they had lived this full happy life together before it was tragically cut short.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And look, Russell, turns out he was a war hero. And like I said, he was in his 80s, so he was a World War II hero. He had served in the Navy in World War II before returning home. And, you know, didn't have a whole lot, started working at a local clock manufacturer and rose to become an executive there. So a guy who worked hard, rose up, made some money.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Meanwhile, Shirley's staying home and she's raising their four children. And they're currently living in their native state of New Jersey. Shout out to everybody in Jersey. Hope you're enjoying all your drones. And at some point, though, they decide, like most people who live in New York and New Jersey, they want to move to the south.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I don't know why you'd want to live where it's cold all the time, but you could live in a beautiful paradise like Georgia, and that's what they decided to do. They relocate to Georgia, and Russell makes a career change, and this allows him to enjoy a semi-retirement. So he retires from making clocks. I don't know. Frankly, this might have been a good time to leave clock manufacturing.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I'm not sure how healthy the clock manufacturing industry is right now. We just bought a clock, actually. Because my brother-in-law came last Christmas and complained that there were literally no clocks in the house. And he was right. The clock on the coffee maker was never right. So we just used our phones or whatever. But at some point, we're like, you know what? We probably do need a clock.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So we got one. But anyways, an aside. So they moved to Georgia. And Russell invests in Hardee's. which I don't know if Hardee's are everywhere.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Does Hardee's have square burgers?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So Wendy's has square burgers.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I don't know. See, I know Hardee's because of their breakfast. I always liked Hardee's breakfast. Hardee's biscuits. They're made from scratch.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And that's right. There's Carl's Jr., which is the same. Carl's Jr. is the same restaurant as Hardee's. Yes, yes. But they're Carl's Jr. out west, and they're Hardee's here. Here— And briefly, they had this thing called, like, Red Burrito. It was like their semi-Mexican chain.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I still think the burgers are probably round. They're probably round.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Hardee's at some point decided they were going to make good burgers. Their burgers are really good.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And, you know, to get back into the story, Russell was there for it all because he bought these Hardee's locations in Atlanta. And I will say this, where I'm from, Hardee's is covered up for breakfast. They do a great breakfast business and, you know, okay. They used to have good chicken, too. Anyways, so he managed these. They made some more money. His children were now older.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
They were jumping into the business as well. And they sort of took over the management of these various fast food restaurants. And Russell fully retires. And he fully retires in 1994. Now, why is that important? These people are going to be murdered. Spoiler alert.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And one thing we always talk about is victimology and sort of trying to figure out what's going on in people's lives when they're murdered. Who could their potential enemies be? Well, one thing you immediately think when you hear like executive, a guy who owns a business, you know, disgruntled employees, disgruntled business partners, people who, for whatever reason, get sideways murdered.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Well, if it's something like that, this person would have waited two decades to exact their revenge on Russell. So it automatically feels like that avenue that you often see, you know, think about the Ramsey case. There were a lot of people who thought maybe John Ramsey's burgeoning business was one of the motivations behind what happened in that case.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Well, if that's what you're thinking, probably not, because he had been retired now for 20 years.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And another thing about Eatonton, Eatonton? That relates to fast food. The other person famous for fast food from Eatonton, Georgia, who also served in World War II, learned how to cook, and decided to open a restaurant, Truett Cathy, who started Chick-fil-A. It's from Eatonton, Georgia. So there you go.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Are there like chickens running around everywhere?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We're rolling with it. We're doing it live. We're doing it live.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
You'd be willing to say anything. You love Jesse, don't you? And they would all say yes. And so... Jesse's alibi comes under a lot of pressure. And like I said, we'll talk more about that later. But this is the first large crack in Jesse's story. So also on June 11th, things are really coming together for the police. So Jesse's alibi takes a hit.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And they also interview a girl named Christy Van Vickle. She is 11 years old at the time. And she says she was at the girls club once.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
watching a softball game there were several softball games that night and damien was there damien admits he was there i always i always wondered whether he would say he was there because it's like why would damien be at a girls softball game but he said something that i said earlier not a lot to do in west memphis so people would just go watch girls play softball
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So he's there and he's there with Jason Baldwin. And she said that she overheard Damien talking about killing the boys. She told her mom and her mom would eventually tell the police, which would lead to this interview. This statement was bolstered by someone named Jackie Medford, who was also at the same softball game. And she overheard the same conversation.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And we'll talk about this more, too, because we're going to talk about everything more. But if you're interested in this, I would advise going and reading the transcript on Callahan or even better, listening to it. Listen to their testimony. Their testimony is not incredibly detailed. They don't give a lot of details about exactly what was said, but they stand up to cross-examination really well.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And the mom is really convincing there. So worth listening to. We will talk about this more, whether or not you can believe this and what the significance is of it if it happened. But big day for the prosecution. The other thing that happens on June 11th is Jesse meets with Dan Stidham, who is his attorney, and he repeats his confession to Stidham at that time.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And initially, Stidham believed that Jesse was in fact guilty and sort of thought, well, I'm going to be negotiating a plea agreement here and maybe getting to a point where Jesse's going to testify against his co-conspirators in exchange for his life to avoid the death penalty. Maybe even have a possibility of parole down there somewhere. So initially, that's what Stidham thinks.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Over the course of his representation, he eventually comes to believe that Jesse is lying about the confession and begins to believe that he is innocent. At some point, Jesse starts to recant his confession until he's convicted. And then we sort of swing back and forth. We're going to spend a lot of time on Jesse's confessions, and we're going to talk about all of them.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
People really focus on the first one for a good reason, but we're going to talk about them all and sort of the back and forth that happens with Jesse. But at this point, he's still saying, yes, I did this.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I knew exactly what she was talking about. Well, Gab makes it possible to give her something that she wants to use without all the dangers involved.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Well, since you bring that up, I mean, this is an aside to talk about later. You know, one of the things the boys would say is that they had a clubhouse or hang out in the woods. And some people really focus on that because there is no clubhouse in the woods as if they mean a literal clubhouse. When once again, you're dealing with eight year olds, very imaginative.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
June 14th, police talked to Barbara Dietert. She reports that in March, two people she identified as Damien and Jason had attempted to steal her dog. The implication is that they did so to sacrifice the dog in some sort of a cult ritual. This lady does not testify, but just, you know, I feel like half the job of the police at this point was like trying to figure out Civ out.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah. And also it's just almost like a mass panic type thing. Right. I just feel like I don't want to fall into the whole this is another Salem witch trial thing because it gets that is so overplayed. But there's definitely some of that going on. Where this is such a big deal that people are seeing they're seeing, you know, Damien everywhere. He's in the shadows at all times. Right.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And they're remembering back just like they did, frankly, in the Salem witch trial. Oh, you know, I saw he was out in the clearing. I bet he was worshiping Satan. Right. So you get a lot of that.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Exactly. So on June 18th, James Bailey is going to tell the police something they already know, but it's always nice to get things sort of supported. He says that he saw Damien and Jesse at Vicki Hutchinson's trailer, two doors down from where he lives. And we know this happened because at some point, Vicki Hutchinson, she's playing detective. She's friends with Jesse. She knows Jesse well.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
She's the one who pulls him into all this because she gets him to introduce her to Damien because she's really trying to trap Damien. She's trying to get evidence that Damien did this. And so Damien and Jesse are at Vicky's trailer several times. And a little unclear what Damien and Vicky's relationship was. A little unclear what Jesse and Vicky's relationship was.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
You know, Jesse's spending the night at her place. There's a lot of weirdness there that I'm not a huge fan of, but hard to say exactly what's going on.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
My kids have clubhouses and boats and pirate ships and all sorts of stuff all over the house. There are no pirate ships in my house.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah. I mean, Vicki Hutchinson, she's an issue and we'll talk about her more later on. But yeah, you know, she, she involves herself in this case. She lies. She very clearly lies about several things. She then recants her story. You know, she's on every side of this. She had a lot of issues with the truth. It's one of the reasons she was talking to the police in the first place.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
There you go. So sometimes, I mean, we're digging into this case about as deep as you can, but sometimes I think people forget that we are still dealing with children. So sometimes it's not going to make sense.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So, but she's definitely a part of this story. Really, no matter what happened, she's in the middle of it. So he talks about he saw Damien there maybe once or twice. Jesse was often there. Jesse, remember, would babysit her child. He also spent the night a couple of times. You know, you may recall Vicki saying that she was afraid of prowlers. And so she had gotten Jesse to spend the night.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And in fact, the night before Jesse was arrested, he spent at Vicki Hutchinson's place and So moving along, we're now moving towards the trial. Police are starting to follow up. We're going to take a big jump here. October 7th, 1993. Tiffany Allen. Tiffany Allen. We've talked about her several times.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
She is the girl that Jesse supposedly punched in the face and the police are asking her about that incident. They also ask her about any satanic groups in town and whether she knew anything about them. Initially, she said she didn't know anything about that.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
But when Detective Ridge sort of pressed her on this, she says that she does know about a group that would meet behind the old sewage plant at night. Now, she said she had heard of the group, but she wasn't sure it actually existed. And she didn't know if Jesse was a member of the group.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
She also mentioned a fight that Jason Baldwin had with another boy, said that Jason had been hit hard enough to knock him down and his mouth was bleeding. Tiffany said that Damien bent down and dipped his fingers in the blood and then stuck his finger in his mouth. This is a reoccurring theme. You hear this several times with Damien.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
There's also an incident when he was in the mental health facility in Arkansas where he got in a fight. And I think in that case, he did the same thing with another boy. This whole blood thing is a creepy thing that Damien did. Likes to do probably more to freak people out than as some sort of, you know, satanic ritual, but who knows?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I'll say this, this is the most believable testimony about the cult because it's basically they did drugs together.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And look, this is in some ways a total aside. In Damien and Jason's trial, there's a lot of talk about devil worship and that kind of thing. I don't know that Gitchell believed. I don't even know that the prosecution really believed. And I don't know that anybody believes now, except for a few people.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I did read one book that believes it really believes that like this was some sort of satanic ritual, you know, whatever. I don't think most people think that. I think most people think if this did happen, it was something much more mundane than that. But I am fascinated by this whole weirdness with the satanic panic aspect in this case. We're going to talk about it a lot.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
We're going to do a whole section on it because I think it's worth just knowing the way the world was at the time. So, I mean, I can remember being in high school shortly after this. And I started high school in 1996. The satanic panic was over by then. But you still had sort of like... You know, kids always do this kind of stuff. They're always like dabbling in things.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I mean, I remember everybody being into magic and stuff. Right. Everybody was a magician. Everybody could do like something. I don't know. So I just wonder how much of this is just magic. These people got together to do illicit things and somehow, maybe because of the way Damien was and the things he was saying, that got transmuted into, oh, they're huffing gas and worshiping Satan.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
It's like the and Satan thing gets attached to otherwise not innocuous. I won't say it's a good thing or not a bad thing to huff gas. Don't huff gas, kids. But relatively ordinary teenage activity gets this like witch thing going on with it. So I don't know.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Like I said, I think a lot of it, Damien brought some of this on himself just because he talked about it so much and really wanted, I think, to give off the vibe. That he was some sort of, that he was something special, right? I mean, that's part of it. That he's something special. He's involved in something different.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
That all you people who go to church every Sunday, you can't understand this, right? I thought there was a lot of that going on, too.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And this case is obviously different from a lot in that it's gotten so much attention, but I think it's also interesting and probably sort of a microcosm of how crime affects people. I mean, this is the people who we're talking about Like Alice said, their classmates, friends of the victims, people who knew the convicted. This case has in many ways dominated their lives.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And Buddy Lucas is one of those people that has sort of vanished away from this case. But man, wouldn't you love to talk to him? Because is he lying or is he telling the truth? The story he tells about what Jesse told him is very consistent with Jesse's confession. In fact, it's more consistent with...
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I mean, for the rest of their lives, they get asked about this case, they think about this case. I mean, this thing that happened to them, this traumatic event, is something that's never let go. And for some, in a very serious way, I mean, there are people who've been dealing with trauma from this case. Who weren't even, you know, necessarily directly involved, but they became involved.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
with a later confession that Jesse gives called the Bible confession than it is with his initial one. His initial one, Jesse says he didn't do anything to the boys. The only thing he did was he chased down Michael Moore and he brought him back. Basically, that's all he says he did in his initial confession.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
In his Bible confession, he says that he had done that, but he'd also struck one of the boys in the head, which is consistent with what Buddy Lucas is telling police. That's interesting because you would think if, for instance, Buddy is telling the story that he's heard was out there, or if the police fed him the story, you would expect that they would feed him the initial story.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
that they would tell him, or then that he would hear, sort of in the ether, the story that Jesse told, the story that was eventually published very quickly in the newspapers around Memphis. But the story he's telling is a different story, slightly different, Very slightly, but importantly. And so he feels like this could be it, right? This could be the key.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
This could be the guy who brings it all together. But then he recants, and he's so back and forth, and he's failing his polygraph and everything else. And whether you believe in polygraphs or not, he very quickly becomes this... Hard to believe witness. And you're going to have problems with him. Then Ron Lacks gets involved.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And this is another person who Ron Lacks convinces either to tell the truth or to keep his mouth shut. Once again, depending on your perspective. So fascinating person. Not a lot of time is spent on him, I think, in a lot of the coverage of this case. I feel like more should be spent on him. And the police are still trying to shore this up because they see how important a witness he would be.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And as late as January 3rd, 1994, they're talking to his aunt and uncle because they hear that they may have information. And they said that Buddy had told them that he received those shoes from Jesse after the crimes and that they had blood on them. Now, of course... No blood's ever found on these shoes, right? So, and it's hard, you know, it's pretty hard to clean blood off of shoes.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So take that for what you will, but this is sort of another consistency with his earlier story. Now it could just be that as we've talked about a lot this episode, Buddy is another person inserting himself into this case and has made a lot of this up to try and be important. And then at some point realizes, what have I gotten myself into? Hard to say which one it is.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So early 1994, Jesse's trial is held. On February 5th, following that trial, he is convicted. On the drive of the police to the prison processing facility, he will confess to the officers, which leads to February 8th, 1994. And what will come to be known as the Bible Confession, Jesse gives a detailed confession to Dan Stidham with his hand on the Bible.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
They were pulled into it. I'm thinking of Aaron Hutchinson right now and everything he went through, but we'll talk about that more. We are coming to the end of the timeline only because we're keeping it a little bit high level. I mean, I realize we're on episode seven, so... You know, I'm not going to try and tell you that we've been brief, but we're going to finish up the timeline today.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
He will repeat this confession to the prosecutors. Despite these confessions, Jesse will ultimately decide not to testify at the Echols-Baldwin trial. He is obviously someone the prosecutors want to testify, and he doesn't do that. We'll talk a lot about that when we talk about his statements and what exactly is going on with his decision not to testify.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
It's something that's obviously pointed to a lot by people who believe the West Memphis Three are innocent because... Jesse has a huge incentive to testify. He could not spend the rest of his life in prison if he testifies, but he chooses not to do that. But it's not going to matter. March 19th, Eccles and Baldwin are found guilty of murder.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Damien, who is seemingly committed to doing everything in his power to harm his case, even at this late hour... says to the camera's recording for HBO's Paradise Lost, quote, I kind of enjoy it because now, even after I die, people are going to remember me forever. People in West Memphis are going to tell their kids stories. It'll be sort of like I'm the West Memphis boogie band.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Little kids will be looking under their bed. Damien might be under there. His parting thoughts.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And this was the moment. So, you know, watch the whole Paradise Lost documentary. And, you know, I think I was with basically everybody. You know, you watch it and you're like, I just I don't know. This seems weird. Like all this devil stuff. There's some crazy people involved in this. They don't seem like they have a whole lot of evidence. You know, Jason Baldwin was like an angel.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Jesse Miskelly obviously has some mental issues. And then like you hear him say this and it's like, wow. What is wrong with that guy?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And going away from that, I was like, look, I don't know about the rest of them, but I got some serious questions about Damien Echols because of what he said in later episodes of I mean, there's three separate documentaries, but now they treat them as part one, part two and part three.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
episode two and episode two there's a lot of effort to sort of claw this back and explain you know he was really in his head he was shocked he was stunned he was in shock didn't really know what he was saying which okay fine maybe but when he says it it's just this is not the kind of thing you would expect someone who is number one innocent and number two has just been wrongly convicted and number three has just been sentenced to death so
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
to say to the cameras about what has just happened to him. You know, he's the West Memphis boogeyman.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And that will be the end of West Memphis 3101. And then we'll get into the higher level classes for everybody who is interested in this case. Last week, we got through to June 9th, 1993. And that's what we're picking up today.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
There was a Pearl Jam concert.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And Alice and I know this all too well. We're online. We're a target. We're always making people talk. Angry and privacy is really important to us to the extent we can maintain it. Of course, we've been doxxed. We've had our information blasted online. We have seen what that can do, and it can have a real chilling effect, particularly if you're someone who's not used to it.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Maybe suddenly you're not doing the things you want to do or saying the things you want to do because of that. Don't let it happen completely.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
to you use the delete me take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for delete me now at a special discount for our listeners today you can get 20 off your delete me plan by texting prosecutors to six four zero zero zero the only way to get 20 off is to text prosecutors to 64000. That's prosecutors to 64000. Message and data rates may apply.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Guys, you know, we have more children than we can count at this point, and we want them to be healthy. We want them to grow up strong. We want them to get the nutrients and the minerals they need. And sometimes you think, hey, what about children's vitamins? But unfortunately, most of them are basically candy in disguise. They're filled with two teaspoons of sugar.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Unhealthy chemicals and other gummy junk. And that's where HIA comes in. It was created by pediatricians to include super powered, chewable vitamins that your kids are going to love. Most kids, like I said, they're getting these vitamins that have five grams of sugar and that can contribute to a variety of health issues. The last thing you want. But HIA is made with zero sugar and zero gummy junk.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yet it tastes great and is perfect for picky eaters. It fills the most common gaps in modern children's diets to provide the full body nourishment your kids need. It includes things like vitamin D, B12, C, zinc, folate, and many others to help support immunity, energy, brain function, mood, concentration, teeth, bones, and more.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So, when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Homes.com. We've done your homework.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I love this incident because this is such a good example of why you have to be careful with this case. And really any case, you know, people will take things that witnesses say they heard and say, hey, there you go. It's definitive proof. That person heard X, Y, or Z say whatever. And then you have this instance where you have one person saying that another person told them Damien did it.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah, and it's one of those things where, who knows? I mean, they're trying to do some DNA testing now that's been delayed for reasons that are unclear. There's not a lot of transparency in how this is all going on. Hopefully, it's being handled well. Initially, it was mostly Damien Echols who was involved.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Jason Baldwin and his lawyers have now gotten involved in this, and I think we'll probably ensure that this is done in the right way. I have more faith in Jason Baldwin and his lawyers, frankly. But we'll see what happens. Now, look, people wonder about this. I mean, you hear people say, if Arkansas truly believed that these three people killed these three kids, why would they do this?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And we know why the West Memphis Three did this, because they wanted to get out of prison. Jason Baldwin, by the way, famously, initially, supposedly, did not want to do this. He wanted to go through with a retrial. It was sort of an interesting point because there had been no retrial actually ordered at this point. They still had to have that hearing. It would have been a long, difficult hearing.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And frankly, I think the cards are on the table. There was going to be a new trial. And as Alice said, they were going to be in a position where... You would rather have a circumstantial case because you can always rely on circumstantial evidence later on. This case is based entirely on witnesses, based entirely on statements. Jesse's confession is what got him convicted, right?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And they're going to have a lot of resources. They're going to have a lot of experts. They're going to come in and they're going to tear all that down. And there's going to be witnesses who don't remember. There are witnesses who have recanted, including some of the, you know, we've talked about some of these people like Vicki Hutchinson, for instance. She has recanted since then.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
they probably were going to lose. And the prosecutor was candid about that when he was interviewed about it. He was like, I don't think we'd win if we did this again.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So he didn't want to roll the dice because what he did not want, and he claims that he still thinks the West Memphis Three are guilty, but what he didn't want is for them to be exonerated, to have their convictions overturned, and then the case just either be lost or go away. So he made this decision. And that's the thing about an offered plea is no one is happy about it.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
But I don't think you should take it as Arkansas never would have done this if they really thought they were guilty. I don't think that's true at all. I think this was basically all they could do. And the West Memphis three were willing to do this. And I will tell you, I think Jason Baldwin was right. Have you seen West of Memphis? Supposedly. And I just assume this is true. It's not like I know.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
But supposedly Jason Baldwin really did not want to do this and was essentially convinced that Damien was sick and they're trying to kill Damien. And, you know, he's got all these problems, probably none of which were true. And he caved and did it and went ahead and went along with the offered plea. They totally should have asked for a retrial.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
You know, I think back to the Michael Peterson case, the staircase case. there was a good chance he would lose. Because he still had... The case was still good against him. It wasn't as good as it was the first time, but there were still things. There were things you could argue, right? The prosecution had a good shot there.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I don't think they had any shot at all in a retrial if this had been tried again. And I just think that was a huge mistake. And I understand the desire to go ahead...
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And then when they go and talk to the other person, they say, no, no, no. It was the first person who said that. I mean, just a great example of how in this sort of maelstrom of rumor and innuendo and everybody wanting to be a part of it. There's sort of a natural human reaction to want to be a part of this because it's such a big story.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
and get out but I'll tell you what would have happened those convictions would have been vacated and that judge would have let them out on bond and I don't even know if they ever would have been retried and then they wouldn't have convictions on their record that's what would have happened if they had just done that now that's easy for me to say because I wasn't sitting in prison but I think Jason Baldwin was absolutely right that he should not have taken this deal
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So... You know, if this were any other case, we probably could just stop here. We could give our theories and move on after seven episodes. But that's not what we're going to do because this case is not an ordinary case. I do feel like at this point, as I've said, if you've made it with us through the entire timeline, you now have a really solid idea about this case.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
But, here's lots of stuff we glossed over because we didn't want to spend all day on it, or an entire episode on it, yet. We wanted to get you all this background. In the next few episodes, we're going to start off with our 200 level classes. I really like this analogy to, like, a degree level. So this was your 100 level classes. Then we're going to do some 200 level classes.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
We're going to go back. We're going to talk in detail about a lot of the things that we have just covered in brief. Now we're going to talk about the autopsies. We're going to talk about the evidence. We're going to talk about... the ligatures in this case, the knots in this case, which is very important. We're going to talk about stuff like that.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And then we're also going to spend a lot of time on very specific things. Like we're going to do a whole episode on the satanic panic. We may even do that next because I kind of feel like maybe just go ahead and do that. So we've talked about it in detail and then go into the crime in more detail. We're going to spend a lot of time on Jesse and Miss Gilly's confessions.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I was telling Alice just to give you an idea of there's just a lot here. So our outline on Jesse's confessions is as long as the entire JonBenet Ramsey outline, which is hard to believe. But it's true. So we're going to spend a lot of time on those. We're just going to be doing this for a long time. So I hope you're along for the ride until the end. I think this is fascinating.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I will tell you, I was thinking about this. By the time we got to episode seven of Karen Reed, I hated that case so much. I hated it. I hated it. I did not want to talk about it for one more second. But this case, not how I feel at all. This case, I've really enjoyed. So hopefully you're enjoying it too.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
you have these kinds of things that initially you're like, wow, you know, she heard Damien say that. This is a big piece of evidence. And then it very quickly falls apart.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I often wonder, you know, I went back and looked at our list of cases we were going to cover. I always like looking at that because I would list cases and I would put how many episodes I thought it would be. So this case, I had four episodes, which was like a lot. Like back then when we just started, I thought, man, four episodes is, that's a ton.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
We could have gone longer. We could have.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I don't know if this is better or worse. Maybe you're thinking, man, I long for the days of 10 episode series. This would be so much better if it was only 10 episodes. I don't know. But like I said, by the time when we finish with this, I don't think anybody will be complaining that we glossed over anything. I'm sure they will because there's so much. I mean, you could talk about it.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
a lot of this stuff, but anyway, that's where we are. So thank you guys for staying with us this far. We have a lot more to talk about and there's going to be some interesting stuff. We got some interviews we're doing. I think you're going to enjoy as well. We'll release those as Wednesday episodes, by the way.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So, you know, you don't have to worry about this being even longer because of the interviews we're going to do. I think the interviews will add color for you as we talk through this. If you have thoughts, and I'm sure you do, shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com, at prosecutorspod for all your social media.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I'll go ahead and tell you, as I said, I said earlier that people were going to be emailing us things that they were confused about. So I'll give you one that someone did mention. So we talked earlier that on the day of the murders, that Dana Moore saw Terry Hobbs in the 7 o'clock hour that day. And someone asked how we knew that. Well, the reason we know that is because...
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
John Mark Byers, in case we didn't make this clear when we did it, John Mark Byers and Dana Moore give statements to the police. Dana Moore talks about how before she called the police, which was just after 8, she actually walked down to... Terry Hobbs house to the Hobbs house. Interestingly, she doesn't say that she talked to Terry when she's talking to police.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
But John Mark Byers says that when he talked to her, she talked about how she had spoken to I think he calls him Mr. Hobbs. and his boy was missing as well. And so that would have happened before 8 o'clock because that's when they start calling the police. John Mark Byers initially calls the police right before 8 o'clock. He calls the county. He's directed to West Memphis.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
He gets in touch with West Memphis, and someone I think is dispatched at 808. And then that person, Regina Meeks, shows up, and actually Terry Hobbs is coming to John Mark Byers' house. It's the first time I think John Mark Byers and Terry Hobbs ever spoke. Right as that's happening.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So this is all very important because if you think that Terry Hobbs is involved, then you really kind of have to push the murders back in time. Because sometime in the late seven o'clock hour, probably between 730 and eight, he is talking to Dana Moore. And then right after eight, he is talking to John Moore Byers.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So just something to think about and something that came up because somebody emailed us. All to say, if you have thoughts or things you want more clarity on, shoot us an email. We're happy to talk to you about it. Gallery is discussing this case. Join the gallery. Lots of great discussion. If you want these episodes early and ad-free, join Patreon.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
You can also watch us record them if that's your thing. And hello to the 130 or so people who joined us tonight. Okay, Alice, anything else you want to say about the case?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Alice, do you have time for a question tonight or do you need to go ahead and sign off? Absolutely.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Okay, well, let's do a question. I'm going to ask you this question, even though this question is kind of old now. But I think there's a couple of ways to answer this, I think, that are universally applicable. So this is from Zeb. Zeb wants to know our opinions on Jessica Crumbly's lawyer. She seems like a hot mess. Is it intentional to get a new trial? Okay. So, no to your second question.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And this is something people ask all the time, and I'll just tell you, it is never the case. Ever.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
ever ever the case that a lawyer is intentionally being ineffective it is just never the case it is a silly stupid thing to do because it's really hard to win an ineffective assistance of counsel claim so much better to try and win the case than to like throw it so they can try it again like it just doesn't even make sense is the first thing people always ask that it is never the case ever
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah, and all the lawyers in this case, in the Westman Street case, would eventually say they were ineffective. Dan Stidham would say it was the first death penalty case he ever tried. He did the best he could. And look, I mean, if you read the transcripts, you can tell that Stidham's really trying, but you also see where he really did need a little bit more experience.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I mean, there were times where...
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
the judge he would object and instead of had this thing that he would give these speaking objections is what we call them speaking objections when you stand up and you say objection and then you explain why you're objecting and judges hate that you're supposed to say you know objection irrelevant right you don't say objection your honor that has nothing to do with this case and i don't even know why he's bringing it up and that's improper and you should strike it and he would do that all the time the judge would be like so what is your objection
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I'd be like, relevance, relevance. And he would never get there. And so you could see that like he is new at this and he's learning. So he would say that. And the other thing I'll say about defense attorneys, and this is true of prosecutors too, but defense attorneys, I feel like even more so. Defense attorneys, you see the whole spectrum.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I mean, you see lawyers that are just like Clarence Darrow good, right? I mean, just so good at what they do. And then you see lawyers who have no idea what they're doing. But the other thing you see is, Those lawyers who just have a difficult case. I mean, a lot of times people watch these trials and they'll say, man, I thought this lawyer's terrible. He's an awful attorney.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Well, it's because he has nothing to work with. You know, he's doing the best he can, but his best at the end of the day, all he has is what he has. Right. So what's he supposed to do? You know, I mean, you can only you can't pull a rabbit out of hat every time. Yeah. So, you know, that's going to happen. And I would say this as well. Just give us lawyers some grace. You aren't too hard on us.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Y'all watching all these things on television. You think we're boring. You think, you know, we don't have it all together. Trials are hard and everybody's just fumbling around. I mean, you've probably noticed that when you watch live trials. Every trial is its own animal. It's like everybody's first time every time.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And it doesn't really even matter how how much experience anybody has because the judges are all different. They have different things they like.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah, somebody actually asked if there's anywhere, this was another five-star question, if there's anywhere they could watch us do our thing. Fortunately, in our court, they don't allow cameras in the courtroom. Thank God. Thank God. So nothing we've ever done. I will say this. You can listen to oral arguments I've done.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So if you really want to hear oral arguments, if you go to the court's website, you can just look it up. You can listen to those and those are fun. So that can be your homework.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah. For anybody listening, it's like an inside joke that no one explained. So it is.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I got one in August, but I may let another lawyer do it. So we'll see. Okay. Well, this has been fun. I hope you guys will join us. We're done with the timeline. Now we're getting into the nitty gritty starting next week. So I hope you guys will join us for that. We are so excited. We will see you then. But until then, I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And we are The Prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
This is where every Rico investigation starts.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And, you know, I mean, obviously people over the years have said this was all Damien trying to generate sympathy, doing this with no intention of actually killing himself. And it was just one big show. I mean, I don't know.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And we are the Prosecutors. today on the prosecutors we finish up the timeline in the west memphis three case Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my savage co-host...
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I believe this was the girl that Jesse said that he'd had sex with. And she said that didn't happen. Right. And so I punched her in the face.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And, you know, you don't often hear this part about Jesse because he is, if you've seen Paradise Lost, he's very much presented as this sort of nice, affable, sweet kid who clearly has some mental disabilities, some lacking in basic intelligence. But Jesse could be incredibly violent and had been violent before and had been violent with before. Children. So just more sort of color to these folks.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And we're going to talk more about their backgrounds when we get into the upper level West Memphis three classes. But we did want to give you sort of an overview of some of the things that are happening as this investigation is continuing, even post arrest. So on June 11th, at this point, Jesse has a new alibi.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I say it's a new alibi because initially in his statement to police, including in his confession and before his confession, he said that on the day of the murders, he went home. And then he basically spent the rest of the day at his house.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Surely thereafter, a new alibi was remembered, developed, depends on your perspective, that in fact, he had gone to a place called Dyess, Arkansas, to go wrestling and not like traditional Greco-Roman wrestling, but wrestling. Jesse wanted to be a wrestler and he had like a luchador mask and everything.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And he and a group of people would go to this area about an hour north of where they lived and they would practice for one day. Maybe they're going to make it big. And they would do that on Wednesday nights. And this happened on a Wednesday night. And so there was several people who came forward and said, Jesse was with us that night wrestling.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
On June 11th, detectives, they're trying to nail this down and they talked to Bill Cox and he is going to blow a hole in everything. He's going to produce a receipt that shows that the money that was paid to rent this location where everyone would wrestle was paid on April 27th, not May 5th. Now, why is that important?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Because most of Jesse's alibi witnesses recalled that he was there May 5th because that was the day that they signed the contract and paid the money to rent the gym during Jesse's trial. There were several witnesses who would testify about this alibi, and this was devastating, frankly. It was it was your defense lawyer. You're having to make a decision. They knew about this, obviously.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I mean, they had the discovery from the police. They knew this contract existed. They knew when it was dated. They knew what the testimony was going to be about the contract.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
They went ahead and put on the wrestling alibi anyway, and it allowed the prosecution to really just hammer these other people who were with Jesse and several of them by the end of cross-examination were very sort of confused by the whole thing and really weren't sure at all now when this actually happened. So this ends up being a really bad thing for Jesse.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And at this point, we're far enough removed from the trial that most people, when they talk about this case, they just talk about the wrestling alibi and they don't really point out why the wrestling alibi fell apart so spectacularly in trial. But that's why. Because of this circumstantial piece of evidence. We've talked about this a lot. Got a lot of witnesses. They're racking their mind.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
They're trying to remember what day things happened, when it happened. And a lot of the people in the trailer park were very supportive of Jesse. They would go testify and they would wear a little yellow ribbon in support of Jesse. This was also really bad because the prosecution would ask every one of them, what's that ribbon stand for? Oh, you're on Jesse's side. You want him to get off.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit Progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Guys, we want to talk about one of our favorite podcasts, a podcast we love so much we have appeared on it multiple times.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Silver Linings Handbook with Jason Blair. Jason is a friend of ours, but he's not just that. He is an incredible interviewer, an incredible podcaster, and his episodes will pull something out of you you didn't even know existed.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
was there he says that he wants to have conversations that inspire and he does just that with interesting conversations with interesting people and the themes that he looks at are not just true crime though he's got a lot of great true crime episodes as well he talks about growth understanding belonging compassion things that are important in true crime and in life
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student-to-teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And look, the way this story is usually told is that that target was solely Kerr-McGee. But I think it is worth remembering as we talk about this. Unions are controversial, even within plants. And this union was controversial at this plant. There were plenty of people who worked there who were not union members.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
There were attempts while she was there to ban the union where the union barely survived. It would almost fail. So there were a lot of workers who wouldn't necessarily have appreciated what she was doing because they would have viewed it as her threatening their job. You're making all these complaints. You're going to get this place shut down. We're going to lose our jobs.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And I feel like that's something that people don't really talk about. There's a podcast called Radioactive, the Karen Silkwood Mystery. It's by ABC. It's really good. Two reporters from Oklahoma said, But I mean, and there I give it to them. They're up front about it. I mean, from the very beginning of the podcast, they're basically like, we really like her. We think she was murdered by Kermit.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
That's basically what they say in the first 20 minutes. Right. So they spend the rest of the podcast trying to prove that. And I will give them credit that they also when evidence comes up against that theory, they don't try and hide it. So good podcast. They make it clear where they're coming from going in. But I felt like that was something they talked about.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But they're so focused on the idea that she was murdered by the company that they don't really consider other alternatives, which I think are equally interesting. So that's just one to remember. She is someone who was outspoken, who would have made enemies both for what she was arguing and probably just because she was a woman. who was being a loud mouth, right? I mean, it's the 70s.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
It's not hard for you guys to imagine sort of the circumstance that she's in. It probably wasn't the most supportive place. So let's start the timeline because the timeline is going to tell us a lot. So in 1965, the Cimarron fuel fabrication site was opened in Crescent, Oklahoma.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
The site was originally licensed for uranium fuel fabrication and was used to fabricate enriched uranium fuel for nuclear reactors. So just to give you a quick and dirty, probably mostly wrong background on nuclear energy. So uranium is a rock. It's lots of different places have it when you find it used to be perfectly useless.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She could turn into water? Wow.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But at some point when we started to understand the way nuclear reactions work, we realized that uranium was a really good fuel for nuclear reactions. And you can't have iron is not really a great thing for nuclear reactions. You need something that's already radioactive. which uranium is. It decays, it emits radiation naturally, but low levels.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And just uranium itself, it's kind of like unrefined gold, right? Or diamonds that haven't been polished up. Yeah, it's interesting, but it's not that great. Enriched uranium, basically, as I understand it, you bombard it with certain particles and you get different isotopes of uranium. I think uranium-238 is the uranium that you use in nuclear reactors. But uranium
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So the original atomic bombs were uranium bombs. That's how they worked, was with uranium. And that's how sort of nuclear reactors started off. They were fueled by uranium. And uranium's great, but it doesn't give you as big a bang as maybe you would like. It's not as efficient.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
as another fuel which was eventually developed uranium is naturally occurring but using uranium you can create something called plutonium and plutonium is far more radioactive far more unstable far more dangerous far more explosive and far more energy packed than uranium.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And so in 1972, the Cimarron Fuel Fabrication Site, which is owned and operated by the Kerr-McGee Corporation, was awarded a $9.6 million contract, which doesn't sound like a lot, but at the time was a lot, from the Atomic Energy Commission to produce fuel rods for experimental nuclear reactors using plutonium instead of uranium. These reactors were called breeder reactors.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I thought I mean water would be.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And so what was really sort of amazing about them was you could put plutonium in bombard the plutonium, generate the energy, create the steam, create the electricity, but you actually produced more plutonium while you were doing it. So the idea was you could essentially have using a limited amount of plutonium because it's creating more plutonium as it goes.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Number one, you can use that plutonium for nuclear weapons, which is important for national security. Because you can't build a nuclear bomb these days without plutonium, right? So that was important.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And it makes it much less expensive to operate the plant because your fuel, you're generating new fuel for the plant as you're generating energy, which is, you know, the idea of getting more energy than you put in. I mean, that's the stuff of science fiction. Right. So this was a huge deal.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And a lot of people really thought this is the answer to our our energy problems, because remember, it's the 70s. We're going towards a point where you're going to have the oil crash, where the price of energy is going to get much higher. People are starting to become much more concerned about the effect of burning fossil fuels, what that's doing to the environment, acid rain, all that stuff.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
You know, in England, you've just had the killer fogs. that killed thousands of people because everybody's burning coal in London, and there's just this smog sitting over the city, and people are looking for ways out. And nuclear power really seemed like that at the time. So this is very exciting, and it's very important. Kerr-McGee was a huge... Corporation in Oklahoma.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
You know, every street's the Kerr Street or the McGee Street. And one of them, I forget which one, was a United States senator from Oklahoma. I mean, these guys really matter. The company they built employs a lot of people. It's very powerful. And what it's doing is very important. So at the time, this was one of the largest employers in the area.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And most people didn't know about the dangers of working with plutonium. Plutonium is one of the most toxic substances known to man. It takes very little of it to kill you. But they weren't that... forthcoming about that, about what plutonium could do, both in the short term with exposures that could lead to radiation poisoning and in the long term with an increased risk of cancer.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So this is something that really we're sort of just aligning all these dangers and really focusing on the potential benefit of plutonium. So August 1972 is when Karen Silkwood gets a job at the Kerr-McGee Plutonium Plant and And she's working as a lab technician, and her job would entail making plutonium pellets.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So they're making these little pellets of plutonium that you feed into these nuclear reactors, and that's how you're going to fuel the reactor. Now, she becomes a member of the Oil, Chemical, and Atomic Workers Union. It's the first time. That she's ever really been a part of a union and she gets into it almost immediately. There's a contract negotiation going on. There's going to be a strike.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She becomes really involved in this. It was unlike anything she'd ever experienced. She'd never been involved in sort of on the ground politics like this. And she really liked it. The strike failed. And whenever a strike fails, it's always a blow to the union. And frankly, a lot of people who were in the union credited Karen with keeping the union together.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
There were a lot of people who said, why even have the union? We did this whole long strike. Nothing came of it. We should just abandon this. She kept the union together. And as part of that, she gets elected to the negotiating team. She is now in leadership in the union, as I said, the first and only woman in the union and who is in leadership.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And she is responsible in her job for the health and safety of union workers. And it was something that she took very seriously.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And look, they really didn't trust the Atomic Energy Commission. They thought the AEC was captured, which happens a lot with regulatory agencies. Regulatory agencies, often the people who make up those agencies are people who are experts in their field, who typically, before they became members of the agency, were employed by the companies they are now called upon to regulate.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So a lot of times they are captured. And so they felt like, number one, they already felt like they were blowing them off. They're coming to them and they're giving sort of eyewitness evidence. They're saying, look, we've seen this. We're seeing what they're doing. Here are the violations. And the AAC is like, sorry, we need documentation.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And there are two things I think that are worth pointing out here. Number one, the bravery aspect. of Karen to say, I will do it. I will be the one that will collect this information. She has to know, obviously she's putting her job at risk. She will later tell someone that's fine because when this is finished, she's leaving Kerr-McGee.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And if she has to, she'll shut the place down and she walks out the door. I mean, she is committed to this, right? But it also was incredibly stressful for her, as we're going to see. She couldn't sleep. She became paranoid, frankly. We're going to see some things that may or may not have happened where she was very concerned about things that were going on around her and in her life.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And she was eventually put on medication to help her sleep because she was so stressed out by this. So this was a huge burden on her that she was doing this. And she understood that this was not sort of an everyday thing that just anybody is going to do. It took a lot of bravery for her to do it. And it put her in a position where there was some danger.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Radiation is scary. It's one of those things that we don't understand very well, that we only really got to know about in the last 200 years, that the first person who really studied it died of radiation poisoning. So, you know, there's that. And something that those of us growing up in really any of the 20th century, constantly afraid of nuclear annihilation.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And you maybe think to yourself, that's impossible. It's impossible for that much plutonium to disappear. I mean, obviously their stringent security protocols would prevent that. And it is a testament to what a different time it was that there were no security protocols. There were no checks. There was nothing. And the people who worked at Kerr-McGee after this were asked, is this possible?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Would say, absolutely. You could easily just walk out of the plant with a sack full of plutonium and no one would even notice. Like this would not have been a big deal to do this, which is, Mind-blowing, because as Alice said, it's a major national security issue. It doesn't really make sense that you'd sell it to Russia. They had plenty of plutonium.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But there are lots of people you could sell it to. In the mid-70s, I mean, there were a lot of sort of revolutionary organizations or just sovereign nations that would have loved to have that much plutonium for their production of a nuclear weapon. Because it's not easy to make plutonium.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
It's one of the things that prevents... There's a reason that even today, in 2025, there's only a handful of nations that possess an atomic bomb. Even though there are several that really want it. Because it's really hard to do. And this is a major issue...
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But it's also very strange because she handles this in almost like a, I don't want to call it lackadaisical, but she doesn't, for instance, she had been in constant communication with the union people in Washington, talking about the various things that occur McGee. She does not tell them this. She does not tell the union people, oh, by the way, 40 pounds of plutonium walked out the door.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She only tells a friend of hers and apparently another friend or someone, uh, Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
It was something that we were afraid of, but that wasn't always true. In fact, right after World War II, there was a big push that radiation was our friend. You had like cartoons about radiation. Disney was doing radiation things at Disney World and Disneyland to explain sort of how this, the atom, and harnessing the atom was the future.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And we were going to have unlimited power, relatively clean, relatively cheap, not dependent on fossil fuels. It was going to be amazing. And a lot of people were very excited to be a part of that. And one person, who wanted to be a part of this revolution was Karen Silkwood, a woman from Oklahoma. She lived in Oklahoma. She was originally from Texas, but I'm told there's no difference.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So no big deal there. And she wanted to be on the cutting edge of this revolution. And she would take a job that some would say cost her life when she began to uncover some of the dangers that you were just talking about.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Right. Exactly. So she's working a lot. She's stressed out. You know, she's getting home. And I don't know if you are like this, but I can have a really long day. We come and record. And after we record, I can't go to sleep, even if we get done pretty late. Like I have to stay up for a little while. And I can imagine she's working all the time. She's getting home.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She wants to go to sleep because she's got to be back to work in six hours. She's not able to sleep. So that's why one of the reasons she's taking the Quaaludes. So she checks back into work at 7.50 a.m. She works on paperwork in the lab for about an hour, at which point she tests herself again. And this is a shocking sort of moment because contamination is found on her hands.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She also has contamination on her right forearm, face, and neck. How did this happen? She had been decontaminated. When she left, she had no contamination. When she gets back, all of a sudden, she's contaminated again. She goes back to the area where they do decontamination. They decontaminate her again. She says, can I go to this union meeting? And they say, sure, you should be clean now.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
They take a lot of precautions, except for, you know, I told that story about the guy with the demon core. There was a core of uranium. He was keeping the core open with a screwdriver. Because as long as it was open, the radiation, low levels of radiation could escape and it didn't cause a criticality incident.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So the core didn't start to go critical, didn't start a chain reaction, which leads to a big burst of intense ionizing, killing radiation. And he accidentally knocked the screwdriver loose and the two halves closed, which started essentially a nuclear reactor in the middle of this lab. And the only thing he could do was yank the top off. And when he did that, he got blasted with radiation.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And I just want to point out, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, we have no knowledge of her ever being contaminated before. Now, she obviously thought there were holes in Kerr-McGee's procedures. She thought their safety processes were lax. She thought there were danger, there were a lot of dangers to workers. But she herself had never been through this contamination thing.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She's now been contaminated two times in a row. I mean, the last time she was in the lab, she's contaminated. She goes home. She comes back. She's contaminated again. She now goes off to this union meeting where presumably they're not having this in the middle of a reactor or anything. She gets done with the union meeting. She comes back at 430. She returns to the plant once again. She's going in.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She's tested again. And they find contamination on her right forearm, neck and face, and in her nostrils. So now, three straight times she's been tested. And three times she's had contamination. And in between each of those times, she was tested and found not to have contamination. So somehow...
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She is being contaminated, getting decontaminated, and then getting contaminated again, even though it doesn't seem like during any of these times she's actually anywhere where she should be open to contamination.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So she's decontaminated once again. And remember, these are every one of these is rough, just terrible experiences every time she has this happen. So she's now concerned. And so she asks Kerr McGee to check her locker and her car for possible contamination because she's trying to think, where could I have gotten this?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So they test her locker, they test her car, and neither are found to be contaminated. So in neither of the places that she had been did they find any of the contamination that you might have expected she would have gotten.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
He died a few days later. He was the first person, I think, to die of radiation poisoning in that way in the United States. But those are the kind of stories you hear. And we're going to be talking a lot about that. And Alice is right. Paying attention to the timeline is important here. It's going to inform a lot of this mystery. And it is a mystery. It may be a murder mystery.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Another thing that's interesting is around this time, and I mentioned this earlier, we don't know the exact date this happened because it was something she said in passing to someone. That they only really thought of after she died. But Karen will report to a friend that she believes she's being followed. Now, as I said before, she is under a lot of pressure.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She feels like Kerr-McGee is focused on her. She has reason to think they might be looking at her. She starts to think she's followed. And to the extent that she does like some evasive maneuvers from a movie she'd seen or something to lose this person who's following her, which she does. She loses them, quote unquote, loses them if they're actually following her. But that's in her mind.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She's not only having these contamination problems. She's not only getting rebuked by Kerr-McGee, but she thinks someone is following her at this time. On this day, the same day where she's been contaminated, she goes back to her apartment. Her boyfriend will stay with her that evening of November 6th. And she shared her apartment with another laboratory analyst from Kerr-McGee, Sherry Ellis.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Maybe an accidental death, but whatever it is, is tied to some pretty interesting things. So let's go ahead and dive in. Karen Silkwood was born February 19th, 1946 in Longview, Texas. So just after the detonation of the two nuclear bombs in Japan, which sort of introduced the world to nuclear power. She was the oldest of three girls and grew up in Nederland, Texas.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So at 8 a.m., her roommate, Sherry, left Kerr-McGee. So, you know, they're on different shifts. So she had not been at the apartment. She had been working. So as Karen's coming in, Sherry is leaving. She gets scanned. She is not contaminated. At the same time this is going on, you know, Karen's being decontaminated yet again.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
They are checking her locker and car yet again, and neither one are found to be contaminated. So Kerr McGee is really pulling their hair out here trying to figure out how this is happening. And they decide we're sending a team to Karen's apartment. So they send a team to the apartment and they find it to be contaminated.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Significant levels of plutonium were found in the bathroom and on a package of bologna and cheese in the refrigerator. Lower levels were found to be present in other rooms of the home. At its height, searchers found levels of 400,000 disintegrations a minute. Not great. Not terrible. It's actually pretty bad. That's a very high level of radiation, particularly for someone's apartment.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
That's not something they expected, even though they thought we're going to find something here. They didn't expect to find that. So they're thinking, OK, this is this is much more significant than what we thought.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So Sherry, remember, she's been home. She's going back to the apartment. She was clean when she left the plant. She's retested now and she has positive for plutonium on her hands and buttocks. I would expect that probably happened in the bathroom. She went to use the bathroom. It has been heavily contaminated, probably partially because the urine spill is a little unclear.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And now she has plutonium on her as well. And the only option at this point, given the amount of
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
radiation that's been detected is to strip this place down so they basically rip this place apart they decontaminate the whole apartment they seize all this property and they destroy it because it's all so heavily contaminated they can't just leave it there they got to get rid of it the very same day kermagee lawyers began talking with karen they have taken a look at the situation and the position of kermagee is pretty straightforward this couldn't have happened naturally
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Her sisters described her as caring and gutsy with a love for science. In high school, she developed an interest in chemistry and had a real skill for it. And this is all very interesting. She will continue to be a pioneer. She was basically the only girl in her chemistry class. At the time, women just were not expected to study science.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Like, I don't care what you say about our safety protocols. There's no way that all this contamination could have happened to you. It seems like you did this to yourself. And so that's their position. You did this to yourself. I'm not sure how. Maybe you're just incompetent. Maybe you're trying to accomplish something. We don't know. But you did this to yourself. Take responsibility for it.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And she refuses to do that. She says, absolutely not. That is not what happened. And I'm not going to say it did. So at this point, the contamination levels are so high that the company is essentially forced to send Karen to the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory in New Mexico for further testing, which at the time, I think even now, is the world's premier laboratory.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
hospital for any kind of in scientific location for any kind of radiation anything like that i mean this is the place to go they have access to that so they send karen they also send karen's boyfriend and sherry ellis since they had all been in the apartment to los alamos to look into what is happening OK, we're going to leave you there for now. So this contamination problem has become serious.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
We're seeing things that we just shouldn't see. We're seeing things that don't seem like they're possible. Even Kerr-McGee is now concerned that this is impossible. And it makes you wonder what exactly is going on here and why does it seem like Karen is the target of this? They're testing every employee in that plant. Whatever's going on, it seems to be focused on Karen.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
However this is happening, it seems like it's happening to her. The only other people who are testing positive are people around her. What is going on here? And in the days that follow this, this story will continue to accelerate until it leads, one way or the other, to Karen's death. And we're going to talk about that next week. Alice, do you have any initial thoughts before we hang it up?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Okay. Now, Alice, what's your situation? Do you have time for a question or should we go ahead and wrap it up?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
This one's pretty quick. I think we can do this. Okay. So this is from MJ Cooley. And MJ wants to know, how many of the 50 states in America have you been in, if even for a couple hours? I love that. And have you ever traveled outside the country for a case? Which the answer for me is no. I don't know if you have or not.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
You know, now you might go to high school or even middle school and you're required to take certain science classes like chemistry, physics. Biology, that sort of thing. Well, at the time, women were directed towards sort of more home economics type stuff where whereas boys were expected to take sciences because they were the ones who were going to grow up to be the scientists.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
On the other one, are we counting airports or are we not counting airports?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So the states I have not been to, Alaska and Hawaii, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota, and Wisconsin.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Yeah, it's all those sort of Northwest Pacific coasts. I would love to go to all those places because I've heard they're all incredible places.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
In Michigan, I've only been to the airport, which is why I asked that question.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
We've only been to the airport. I would love to go to Michigan.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Minneapolis, St. Paul, Sophie. I also walked across the bridge between Fargo and Minnesota. So whatever the town is across the river from Fargo, I've been there too. All right, we're going to have to come visit all you guys in all these states. So let me get those invitations together. Okay, well, look, I think if you haven't heard this case, I'm sure you're already fascinated by it.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Like I said, ABC has a really great, I think it's a five-part, relatively short, deep dive on this case. Very enjoyable, radioactive, the Karen Silkwood mystery. There's a movie with Meryl Streep in it. She plays Karen Silkwood. from the early 80s. I think Cher's in the movie too. So check that out. I think it won an Oscar or Meryl Streep got nominated for an Oscar. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
This is one of those stories that I feel like in the 70s and 80s, everybody knew. And now, I don't know if many of you have heard of it at all. The only reason I've heard of it is because somebody... Wanted us to cover this. This isn't one of those. Somebody emailed and said, Hey, check this out and checked it out. I was like, wow, this is really interesting. So that's why we're here.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But that wasn't her. She was sort of a trailblazer. And as part of that, she's really interested in this thing that a lot of people would say, why are you here? You know, girls don't do science, but she was. And she was talented so much so that she received a full scholarship to study medical technology at Lamar College in Beaumont, Texas, which once again was a rare feat for a woman at that time.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So be that person. She does an email prosecutors pod at gmail.com. That is the very best way to suggest cases. Reach out to us on Twitter slash X. Facebook on the gallery, Instagram, even TikTok, such that it is. Reach out to us in all those places. We'd love to hear from you. And don't forget, we've got the substack going. A lot of great stuff being written on there by both us and other people.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I hope you'll check it out. True Crime Times. Links are all over the place. So take a look out for that. You'll enjoy that. Okay, Alice. Well, anything else before we sign off?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Let's do it. All right. We'll be back next week with part two of this story. But until then, I'm Brett and I'm Alice and we are the prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
There's a lot. I have a complex theory. So...
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And I think this also speaks to her character because you got to have some fight to do that. Right. I mean, to be somebody who's willing to do the things that no one expects you to do. And not only do they not expect you to do, but they kind of look down on. They discourage you. They're like, why are you doing this? But she kept pushing forward.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And you're going to see that that's a through line in this story. She never backs down and she keeps pushing, even when people are trying to stop her. Now, when she was only 18, she met an oil pipeline worker named Bill Meadows. And like so many of us, love derails our previous plans. A year later, she's 19. She drops out of college so that she can marry Bill. Now, I know this is kind of funny.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
They're 19 and 18. And this just tells you how things are different, I guess, in like the early 60s. Yeah, because they were 19 and 18, even though they're adults, no one would marry them. They basically were like, we'll only marry you with your parents permission. And both sets of parents said no. We're not going to give you permission to do this.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So like many young couple before them, they just said, OK, never mind. We'll just be in a sort of common law marriage situation. They don't actually get married. They just live together as a married couple. And for all practical purposes, they are sort of common law spouses. We should do a legal brief on common law marriage at some point. No, it doesn't really exist. It's kind of not a real thing.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
People talk about it all the time, but it's kind of fake.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
We just lost the, you know, who knows? We thought we had recorded that certificate. It's like adverse possession of relationships. Pretty much. And how if you hold yourself out to be married, I know this is a complete aside, but if you hold yourself out to be married enough, it's like estoppel. You're treated as if you're married. You can't just all of a sudden say, nevermind, we're not married.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
All this property is mine. And the court's like, no, we're going to treat you as if you were married for the purposes of your separation or whatever. Anyways, but they were common law spouses and, you know, married life started off exciting. By the time Karen was only 24 years old, she had welcomed three children. Christy, Michael, and Dawn.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But probably not surprising, the marriage that started at 18 and 19 between sort of a fiery young lady interested in science and a guy working in the oil fields had some issues. And they had a tumultuous relationship. And it reached a point where it just wasn't working anymore. There were issues.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
karen would attempt to leave bill and he would sort of go get her and force her to come back into the relationship which once again it's the 60s it's just not that uncommon a lot of debate over exactly what was going on in this relationship was it abusive but what i think everyone agrees on is at some point bill started cheating on karen and at that point he was fine with her going he moved on to another woman and he was fine with going but
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And we are the prosecutors. today on The Prosecutors. How far will a corporation go to hide its secrets? And how far will one woman go to uncover them? Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my radioactive co-host, Alice. Alice, you practically glow.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But one thing he was not fine with was her taking the kids. So she was sort of in a really terrible position where Bill is ready to kick her to the curb, but he wants to keep the kids. And she really has no choice. But she ends up leaving. Bill keeps the kids. And she, frankly... doesn't really even get to know her children.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Like her children who are still alive today and are still sort of investigating what eventually happens to her, never really had a relationship with her because of this broken family, an early tragedy in her life.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And obviously quite the coincidence. She's on her way to talk to a New York Times reporter when she dies in this accident. What the highway patrol would say was an accident. And it's not difficult to understand why a lot of people immediately question that. And Alice mentioned she's a member of the Oil, Chemical and Atomic Workers Union. The atomic workers part was sort of a recent addition.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
These were oil well workers. This is a heavily male dominated union, a male dominated field. Same thing with the atomic workers. There weren't that many women working there. And in fact, she was the first woman in leadership in the oil, chemical and atomic workers union. I mean, this is this is the kind of person who is a hero in the labor movement.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
A lot of people in the labor movement know about her. There are songs about her sort of those, you know, like. Labor union songs are kind of like Irish songs like right together. There's all these labor songs. They all sound like they're sung by somebody like Joan Baez in the 60s. Right. They've all got that feeling. And there's one about her.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So this is somebody she really makes her mark and people remembered her. And for the last 50 years. Because this happened 50 years ago last November. People have been debating. Was this an accident? Or was she killed before she could reveal the secrets that she knew?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we conclude our look at the Pablo Velez case. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my hermosa co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And then they can find out.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Just by coming here. So I do want to say today our episode with Allison Sweeney came out, which was awesome. Thank you so much to her for doing it. I'm not exactly sure when this episode will air, but if you're listening to this, her latest movie on Hallmark Mystery, Reality Bites, a Hannah Swenson mystery, is coming out Thursday, February 6th at 8 p.m. Eastern time. So I hope you'll watch that.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And from reading the briefs, some of the briefs, this is obviously something that's raised in the ineffective assistance of counsel aspect of this case. Pablo essentially says that, you know, he wasn't expecting to testify. He wasn't ready to testify. And it was a difficult process because he'd never testified before. He's getting asked his questions. Sometimes he's getting confused.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
He's trying to figure out exactly what he's being asked. And that kind of thing makes you look like you're
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
maybe making things up or holding things back or you don't answer the question right like all that sort of stuff because as alice said and as we've mentioned many times one of the things the jury is doing that is very difficult to account for in a podcast is looking at the person testifying reading their behavior and making a judgment about whether or not that person is telling them the truth it's a very human thing that we do every day and it's something juries do
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Are you telling me the truth or not? And that's hard to reflect in a cold transcript. But you really, for that reason, want to prep your witnesses. You want to prep all of them, but especially your client, your defendant. He's going to testify. He needs to be ready. He needs to be ready. He needs to know exactly what you're going to ask him. So at least his direct is good.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Cross-examination is what it is, but at least on direct, you want him to be confident, strong, answering the questions directly and clearly. And Pablo had no opportunity for that. So this is a real sort of bad moment for him in the trial. And particularly in a case where there's not a lot of evidence against him, as we've said before, and as a lot of appellate courts will say,
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Juries can make a decision that you're guilty if you testify based solely on that. They listen to you testify. They listen to you say you didn't do it and they didn't believe you. And that was enough for them. So this was bad. I mean, this was a huge mistake. And frankly, there was some good testimony from those witnesses who came back the next day and testified. It wasn't worth it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
If you got arrest, you got arrest. He would have been better off doing that.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I can't remember which trial we were watching, but there was some trial where it seemed like this is exactly what was happening. Like they, we were there watching a trial or there was a business questions and it was just like, yeah, and it just went on and on. And you're like, what is going on here?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It was actually, it might've been Richard Allen. I'm not sure. It was one of those.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I think it might have been Richard Allen.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And I think the reason was they didn't have another witness ready. And so they needed to get to the end because they probably figured if it was Richard Allen, that Judge Goal was the kind of judge who would say, call your next witness, arrest your case. And this is one of those things we talk about. People on Twitter and everything else just have no conception of how judges really are.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
We'll probably check it out. We will certainly check it out as well. I forget his name. It's like Bert Raleigh or something. He's very attractive.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
The things that judges do and can do and are perfectly legal would make the average person on Twitter think there's a conspiracy here, how awful this judge is. And this judge in particular was very short with the defense. I mean, this was a judge who did not, I don't think he or she, I think it was he, did not like the defense attorney and thought the defense attorney was not a very good lawyer.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It's evident from the transcript. And I think that's why this happened. And it was perfectly within the judge's purview as the person who controls the trial to tell him this. Call your next witness or rest your case. We're not recessing. And that's what happened. So let's talk about Mario Superman Sosa.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So this is one of those things that came out many years later that you see in a lot of these cases. Apparently, there was a man named Mario Sosa who was interviewed by the police about the shooting. Mario, Superman, Sosa, identified Ronald Strandberg as and Richard Shorty Cisneros as the shooters.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But Sosa told the police that he would not testify because he knew if he did testify, his family would be killed. Now this is, I mean, that should not be surprising to anyone. Remember, These people are members of a gang.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Brilliant. Brilliant. He's just amazing. So definitely watch that. But, you know, as much fun as that was, Alice, I missed you. I hope next time that Allison comes on the show, you can be on the show as well.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
They take this very seriously to the point that the victim, we talked about this last week, the victim, when he testified, lied on the stand about what had happened, lied on the stand about who did it and later admitted to that because he had survived that shooting. He didn't want to get shot again. So this person, you know, he says, look, this is who did it, but I'm not going to testify.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So Officer King was one of the investigators on this case. And at trial, he was asked if anyone had identified other shooters during the investigation. And he said no. But in his notebook, he wrote the following notes. Ron driving gold Cadillac. Possibly Ron shot Emerson. A source wrote a letter documenting everything and hid it. If anything happens, the letter will be mailed in.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Shorty has everyone scared. So this is in this officer's notebook. The officer who testified, the officer who said never happened, didn't talk to anybody who had any other suspects. And you'll all be shocked to know this evidence was never turned over to the defense, however incompetent they are.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And I will just tell you, reading this, I'm very surprised that this has not led to a vacation of this conviction. I mean, this is this is very clearly this is actually Brady material.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So we've seen, you know, you think about the so-called Brady material in the Adnan Syed case where somebody's wife calls and tells the prosecutor something the prosecutor told the defense attorney who then told her husband and then he told her. So it's like this circle of information that isn't actually anything. And that's called Brady material that we need a new trial for. This is...
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I mean, this is damning Brady material. Someone should be prosecuted, sued. Withholding this kind of information is astonishing to me, particularly because it is so believable. The police know this. They know that this kind of stuff happens. They know that these kind of threats are made. And it's remarkable to me that they would have this information and continue down the path they went anyway.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And the fact that they didn't turn it over to me is a pretty straightforward, clear, easy violation. But to this point, it has not led to any kind of relief for Pablo. And I think the reason probably is, as we've talked about before, it is really hard to make out a Brady claim because it's a balancing thing.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You have to show that this new evidence was so powerful that if known, would have overcome what you had. And I'm not exactly sure why. What happened here, just because a lot of the court opinions are not available, you know, they're not published, so it's hard to find them.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But if I had to imagine when this was presented, I assume what the court said was you had a positive identification of Pablo by someone who was there. The gold Cadillac, which was in his name, he testified. And the jury was entitled to disbelieve him. This person, even though they said this stuff that was helpful to Pablo, also said they would not testify.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So how valuable is it really to the defense? These are the kind of arguments that the state would have made for why it's not Brady material. But I'll just say this. There's the legal argument and there's sort of your duty. And we've talked about this a lot. That legal argument may be 100 percent accurate, but I go back to the when we talked to Arlinda about the whole Baldwin trial.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You know, these prosecutors and these police officers also have just an independent responsibility not to prosecute the wrong guy. And I feel like you have somebody come in and tell you this. It should really give you pause about continuing that prosecution.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And this is the point where typically my critics would say, I now am going to make excuses for the prosecutor or the police. Because ordinarily what I would do is sort of what Alice did. I think it's really important when we talk about these cases, it is so easy to demonize people. Think about all those cases of missing and murdered indigenous women where we're dealing with RCMP.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah, and so we've done two episodes on this. I hope you guys are starting to understand what happened that night. But just to give you sort of, once again, a little bit of a rundown, because I know it's a little confusing, as these kind of things can be. Basically, you have these two groups of people. You have this individual, Adrian Payen.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It would just be really easy just to be like, look, the RCMP is evil and they're just a bunch of corrupt jerks and they should be disbanded, right? That'd be really easy to do. I think much more effective and much more, if you want to actually have constructive change, try and figure out why these things happened and why these people did what they did and see if you can fix it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Could be things like lack of resources, that kind of thing. I think that's very important. And I think Alice just made a really good point. It's very easy in affidavits to be very black and white. However, in this case, I think there is reason to believe this is exactly what happened. You see recantations all the time, right?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And oftentimes they are absolute crap to the point that the courts don't really take recantations seriously because it's so easy. I mean, you know, 20 years ago you testified the guy did it. Then you have some advocate come along and say, oh, you know, You know, it's been 20 years, so the perjury statute of limitations has passed.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So now if you say he didn't do it, you get him out of jail and there'll be no consequences. And all of a sudden they recant. Right. And is that a real recantation or is it a false recantation? You can have false recantations just like you can have false confessions. However, in this case... Number one, Claudia's recantation is immediate. Yes, we have this affidavit.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But remember, when she testifies on the stand, she doesn't testify it was Pablo. She is testifying consistent with what she says in her affidavit. And the other thing that happened that makes me think she did have this conversation. Was Eileen Bogar surprised when she did that on the stand? No, she wasn't.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
As a matter of fact, she told the jury in openings that she expected that the witness would not actually identify Pablo. She had had this conversation with Claudia. That's how she knew that you wouldn't say that otherwise. And when she got up on the stand and said that, you would be shocked. And you'd be fumbling all over yourself. She knew that she was going to say it wasn't Pablo.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
They had had this conversation and she had prepared a backup plan on how to deal with it if she didn't just go along with what she'd said before. So I think this is absolutely what happened. I think this is the kind of recantation that has all sorts of support for it because it's not one that happened years later. It was one that happened at trial.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So let's talk about Christopher Newby. Christopher Newby is actually a new witness and he submitted an affidavit as well. He said in his affidavit that he knew Ron and Shorty and that they were the shooters that night. He said he also knew Pablo, but he did not see him at the perfect rack.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
He said in his affidavit that he never reached out to police because he knew the reputations of the shooters and he did not want to be viewed as a snitch. Now, this kind of affidavit, ordinarily, I would not give much credence to just because anybody can submit an affidavit 20 years later to help out a buddy and say, well, I was there. I saw it. Sorry. But there's a couple of things about it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
He gets beaten up by Jason Woolley, Richard Shorty Cisneros, and Ron Strandberg at a bar. The next night, he basically gets called back to the bar by his girlfriend, Claudia, who says, hey, the guys who beat you up are here. And he's smart enough to know three on one didn't work out last time. So he brings a few friends. So now it's Adrian, it's Esteban Rodriguez, and it's Emerson Bjorquez.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Number one, it's consistent with what other people have said. With who the shooters would have been. And number two, his reason for not coming forward is consistent with other things we've heard that witnesses were afraid.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And remember, when we went through the timeline, we mentioned that incident after the perfect rack where there was a shooting and some people got beaten up and there was no report ever made. But what were we told was happening there? Ron and Shorty were threatening witnesses who had been at the perfect rack. All of that fits with what Christopher Newby is saying.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So even though in isolation, his affidavit might not be all that convincing, I think given the other evidence in the case, it feels much more likely to be true than maybe what you would ordinarily see.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And yeah, and this is another one that in a different circumstance, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into. If this were just Jason Woolley and another gang member who's also in prison and he's willing to take the hit, you see that happen all the time. You see members of gangs will take the hit for other members of gangs, particularly higher ranked members of gangs.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Say they were the lone shooter when there were obviously two people involved. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
These three guys show up, but unfortunately, what was a fight the night before becomes a shootout this night. There are at least three people shooting. One person is killed, and eventually Pablo Velez is identified by that girlfriend, Claudia, as one of the shooters. And we've been going through whether or not Pablo was actually involved. And let's talk about the forensics in this case.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Remember, we already know there are three people who were involved in this incident before. So what are we looking at here? Well, as you might expect, there were three clusters of bullets. One was a 9mm casing, and this was actually the shot fired by Jason Woolley.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Remember, he actually fires a gun into the ground as this confrontation is beginning, and that's what started the shooting from everyone else. There were also .223 casings. I think this is .556, if you guys are into guns, the NATO round, sort of what you see often in rifles, sort of long rifles, you would expect that.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah, under 20% chance, but a not insignificant chance that she's going to pick him randomly. And if you look at the picture of Shorty Cisneros, as we've put up and as we'll put on the website next to him, they look very similar. And they didn't use a full body. They just used his face.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So that coincidence, which seems so compelling at first, and I thought was compelling at first when I first looked at this case, I was like, ah. When you look at it, when you put any amount of a microscope on it, all of a sudden it starts to fall apart. I do think it falls apart in this case. And I'll just tell you, we've done a lot of these cases, several people that we think are innocent.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Pablo is the most innocent of anyone we've done. Like, I just, I see this case and it just seems to me this is so obviously a wrongful conviction. It's so obviously a situation where I think the police basically were like, hey, there were three shooters. We know one guy, the guy who shot into the ground. We know him absolutely. We think Ron Strandberg was there.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
We think Shorty Cisneros was there, but we can't prove it. But we got somebody saying Pablo was there and Pablo is a son of a drug dealer. So by goodness, great opportunity to get a bad guy off the street. A little shaky, but that's fine. We'll let the jury decide. Right. And they rolled with it and he gets convicted and they all went home feeling fine because he's a bad guy anyway.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
We see a group of these casings, and in fact, that was fired by the blue-shirted shooter in the north of the parking lot. And this is the individual that Claudia will later identify as the Pablo. And there's a cluster of .40 caliber pistol rounds. These were most likely fired by Ron Strandberg because they match his gun and thereby parked cars on the south end of the parking lot.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And that's how a wrongful conviction happens. And I think that's how this wrongful conviction happened here. I don't really have any doubt that Pablo is innocent. He currently, as we speak, is up for parole. I think his parole will be decided in April. And we can hope that he'll at least be paroled and released.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But that's not going to change the fact that he spent 20 years in prison for a crime that I think is evident he didn't commit. Alice, you want to tell me why I'm wrong?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
That's it. I think Alice is right. It is say we don't spend more time on it. And I'll say we received an email from Lisa Martinez, who is Pablo's advocate three or four years ago about this case. And we get emails all the time from people who want us to cases, people who want to look into convictions, everything else and put them on the list, move on.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And at some point came back to this case and started looking at it and realized, oh, you know, wish we'd have done this one earlier. Right. Not like making a difference as doing it. But nevertheless, I mean, I think it's always good to bring attention to these cases. I mentioned Lisa.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Lisa is going to write an article for the True Crime Times, which is our sub stack that we've talked about, should be out as this episode is coming out. So check that out. to see that she's been working on Pablo's case for a long time. As we always say, we want you guys to look at the primary documents. Those are harder to find in this case than some of the other ones. This case is not famous.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
As I said, a lot of the information is not out there. We'll link to a bunch of different stuff. There's a Facebook page that has a lot of information on this. We have access to a Google drive that has basically everything in this case. I'm going to see whether or not that's something we can put up or not. People don't always like to do that. Just make it public, public.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But if it is, we'll put it up on the website or link to it on the website. Read it for yourself. Look for yourself and read the same testimony we talked about. The trial wasn't that long. You could read this trial in an afternoon. Look at it for yourself. See what you think. Read the affidavits. And I think you'll find that this is a case that is an actual wrongful conviction.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So basically, you've got this situation where there are people in three different areas of this bar. We talked about this before. Was this an ambush? It kind of feels like it was because you have people at different positions sort of lined up to be shooting into the interior of this area.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And it's one that needs to be, something needs to happen in this case. I mean, the least of which is Pablo needs to be paroled this year. And got a lot of people listening to the show in Texas.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And I hope somebody who's listening in Texas has a little bit of influence because if you're looking for a case where you can do actual justice and release someone who's actually not guilty and not be concerned about putting a murderer back on the streets, this is the case. All right.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, Alice, do you have anything else you want to say about this case before we move on to the rest of the evening?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And this is ironic, but I'm going to say it anyway. We've actually seen this recently. Those of you who follow some of the goings on in Washington, we're currently at the end of President Biden's term as we discuss this. And President Biden, in one of his last acts, commuted a bunch of death penalty sentences. Well, two of the people.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
All of them, except for like the people we really don't like. One or two. Sorry, basically everybody. New process problem there, right? Like, you guys, you're cool. You're cool. F you. That's basically what he said. But anyway, two of the people that were commuted are refusing the commutation.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And their argument is, well, they claim they're really innocent. I have no idea if they are not going to go to them and say they're probably not. But nevertheless, they are saying they're innocent. And they say, look, as long as I'm on death row, I have so much more access to resources because I'm on death row and people want to keep me from being executed. So they want to fight for my innocence.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And we see this with the Innocence Project all the time. They might as well change their name to the Anti-Death Penalty Project. Because right now what they're doing is everybody who's up for for the death penalty, they just come out and say they're innocent. And it doesn't matter what the evidence is against them.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You know, we have to go through a week of Facebook posts about how Missouri is about to execute an innocent person. South Carolina is about to execute an innocent person. They literally did one. In South Carolina, where they claimed the guy was innocent, even though he had murdered his cellmate while in prison for the murder for which he was getting executed. It's like, he is not innocent.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You may hate the death penalty. This is not the guy. But they will defend you if you're on death row. Pablo didn't get the death penalty. He got 30 years in prison. And so I feel like he has fallen through the cracks of the innocence project and people who fight for that. Yeah. He just falls through the cracks because he didn't get the death penalty.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
He's just not worth the resources. And I have no doubt that the Texas Innocence Project right now is representing some of the worst people in the world simply because they're on death row. And they need to put some of their resources towards people like Pablo because he is actually innocent. And I don't care if he's not going to get the death penalty. He should not be where he is.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You also had some .40 caliber bullets that were on the ground that appeared to be as if someone was chasing Adrian. Remember, Adrian's the one who got beaten up and sort of firing at him as he's running away. So you've got Ron Strandberg, a gun that matches him. You have Jason. who is firing his gun into the ground, right? So we know those two people are two of the shooters.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And it's just unfortunate that he doesn't. I mean, he's just forgotten. You know, if it hadn't been for Lisa Martinez, we wouldn't even know about this case. But here we are. And like I said, hopefully in a couple months, we're going to have good news for all of you and a follow up. But we're just going to have to see whether or not we do or not. OK, that's enough ranting on my part.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Alice, do you want to answer a question?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And Sally Sue wants to know, what did your respective spouses say when you said you were starting the Prosecutors Podcast? And why did they call you crazy?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
They may have called us crazy. And then the second question. Go ahead. The second question, how did your respective spouses react when you said you were going to also do the prosecutor's legal briefs? And why did they accuse you of having a midlife crisis? And then they might've asked you, Alice, when you decided to do two additional podcasts, Are you insane? Are you literally insane?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Exactly, that's the problem. It's not so much that it's a full-time job, it's that we have two now, at least.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah, exactly. And speaking of spouses, I have to ask Alice what I should call my third podcast that I guess I have to do now. Because in April, we're having a baby. Number three.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Little girl. We're all very excited. Mostly her older sister and brother cannot wait for her to arrive. So, you know, it's going to be another interesting time. Why not? Now we're up to seven children between us.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
surprise surprise but you know what's really important the podcast will be fine it will continue as it always does continue along we don't know how but it will yeah and i just i obviously ask for all your prayers and support because last time was was you know a little bit of an ordeal a lot of an ordeal as alice knows so we're hoping for much smoother this time but we'll see
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I was telling my wife, it used to be we just, you know, we pack one bag and we go get to the airport right before the plane took off. You know, no biggie. Now I'm that dad who wants to get there like at least three hours early.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And now I am going to need to get a Odyssey now.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, you know, my wife was test driving cars today. So if you want to go with her.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You can never have too many Odysseys. You know, what did you what do you have now?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
The Hotlander? The Hotlander.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And the question is, was there a third and who was the third? Now, Claudia saw two shooters. She actually believed that Jason fired more than one shot into the ground and then chased Adrian, continuing to fire at him. This didn't happen because Jason, we know, was firing a 9mm. So it seems much more likely is that... it was someone else.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So you're the one who told her that.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I can't think of anything to call it. A hot vo, doesn't work.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
The problem is I was going to name my daughter Brittany, but you stole the name.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Why not? Absolutely. Anyway. Well, thank you guys for all your support. Thank you, Alice, for all your support. You know, we're all doing this together, right? We're just getting through it together.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But we are in the pits right now. Your fifth podcast should be, we just sit around and talk about life.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
That means you have to have a fifth child too.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Would you guys listen to our lifestyle podcast? You know, we do all these ads for lifestyle podcasts and they're like, I talk about my day with my friends and my love life and all this other stuff. And I'm like, who listens? Not, you know, I'm sorry if that's one of the ads on this. It's like, who listens to this stuff? But apparently a lot of people.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah, there you go. We just transitioned into Parenting Podcasts.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Now, one possibility could be that Woolley fired the 9mm from a .40 caliber pistol. This is something people have suggested and continued firing these .40 calibers. This fits Claudia's memory and would fit the distribution of the rounds. This would be a very strange thing to do.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah, exactly. You can feel free to tell everybody else too. It doesn't matter to me. I don't keep things secret like Alice does.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, I think when you had Brittany, didn't we go to an event with some listeners and you were very pregnant?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah. You were very pregnant.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It was at a bar and you were drinking.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
That's the secret is Alice. Alice drinks all the time. You guys. I don't. It's always water. This is our.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
That's the true conspiracy.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
We need to let Podcast One know. Like, by the way, in case you didn't know. We have a lot of babies up in here.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You know, we got you, baby. We need more.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Prosa parenting. Prosa parenting.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
My kids are all about putting people in jail now. It's like they're big.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, this is all fodder for podcast number three, Prosa Parenting.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah. Well. Maybe. Either way. We're going to do another show next week. I have no idea what it's going to be about. Couldn't tell you. Haven't even thought about it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you all for following on this. Keep Pablo in your prayers, too, as he goes through this process of getting parole. We will let you know if we hear anything about that. All right, Alice. Well, do you have anything else you want to add? I assume no, but I'll let you say whatever you want.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It is theoretically possible to fire a 9mm bullet from a .40 caliber gun, but it's not something you'd recommend to anyone. It can damage the gun.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thank you. Thank you so much. All right. Well, we will be back next week with a mystery. Just not sure what it is. In fact, it's a mystery even to us. But until then, I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And we are the prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Next week, I'm going to miss out on some stuff.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I am. I am. Well, I started on vacation because I don't like to drink when I'm skiing.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, that's true. It's never stopped me before. But I don't know about other people, but, like, if I lived at altitude, I'd weigh 150 pounds because I can't eat. I don't like to drink. The only thing I want to do is drink water and catering.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
in the way that blows up and kills you so you don't normally want to do that it's a very strange thing to do there's no reason to think he would do that and since we have someone who's firing 40 caliber rounds it's much more likely that jason woolley he fires that one bullet into the ground maybe he chased after adrian but he wasn't shooting and ron was the one who was shooting and that's why we see all these 40 caliber rounds but the real question that we're concerned with here is who was shooting the 223
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It really is. For me. More power to you people who love the, who are all about the, what is it? I pray, I pre-ski. Yeah. It's like, how about what's after? Going to the bar, going to the lodge and drinking.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Exactly. A s'more. Dude, I just chug Gatorade the whole time.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Who was the one with that third weapon, the blue-shirted individual? And it either is Shorty Cisneros or Pablo Velez Jr. The prosecution would eventually say it was Pablo who had shown up after working and apparently engaged in this shootout. And I guess Shorty Cisneros, he was there, but he was just the one person who wasn't shooting.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And let me just say this, because it is confusing whenever we talk about guns in those different rounds. The most important thing here is there are three separate types of bullets, which indicates three shooters. There were three people involved in the fight the night before.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
In order to believe that Pablo was one of the shooters, you have to believe that Pablo showed up to join the other three in what seems to be an ambush, but one of the original three doesn't have a gun.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Pablo does, but one of the original three, apparently Shorty Cisneros, doesn't have a gun, and Pablo, who wasn't even involved in the fight the night before, is the one who brings a gun and starts shooting. It would seem more likely, if you're calling in extra backup, that there would have been four guns, because you want the most people shooting to ensure that you accomplish your objective.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And look, this is the problem with alibis. And we see this in every case that involves an alibi, is when you're relying on people's memories, everything gets confusing. And you see Enel doing what you want people to do when they're trying to remember. She's looking for sort of guideposts to hitch her memory to.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So, you know, if we'd done that, I would have done it on a night that I could have didn't have to go to work tomorrow. Now, she says that, and that makes sense in hindsight. Does that necessarily mean she was thinking that that night when he showed up at her house? I don't know. You know, then there's the whole it happened around a phone call.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, that's the opposite of what she thinks, because she's saying this was late in the month. But that phone call happened right around when the conversation would have occurred. And so you're trying to figure this out. And the prosecution is obviously saying, look, this is him trying to cover up what happened. He is trying to build an alibi. But also recall this. What is actually happening here?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
At some point after this murder, Pablo is going to realize that he is a target of the investigation. You know, I mean, at some point the police are going to show up and start asking him about his cold car. And what is he going to do? What does any person do in that situation? They start thinking back, man, what was I doing on that night? Right. And then he thinks he went over to her house.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Now, whether he did or not, I don't think that's something that was nefarious that he would say that. I mean, we know this was at least a few weeks later. I mean, in her telling the conversation doesn't happen until July 29th. Right. So he's trying to remember back to a night if he didn't do it, which was completely innocuous for him. Right. It wouldn't have been a big deal.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It was just another night that he got home from his trucking thing. And then he went over to her house and they had this conversation. So I don't think you can say he's trying to create an alibi here, even if he's wrong. And certainly her memory is not that great either. And look, she's his ex-girlfriend. She's not happy with him.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
In the post-conviction stuff, there was obviously a lot of ineffective assistance to counsel claims. And Pablo had actually told his attorney, look, you really need to work on this witness because they're going to call her and she's mad at me. They had broken up for a reason, and you probably won't be surprised to find out it was because Pablo had cheated on her, right?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And now he's trying to get her back, but she's not interested in it. So she's very angry. She's not inclined to help him, and she doesn't help him. But we see this all the time. With these alibis, alibis are a mirror. You see in them whatever you want to see, right? Like if you're somebody who wants to believe somebody's innocent, you'll look at the alibi and you'll say...
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
rock solid and if you want to believe someone's guilty you'll look at the alibi and say there's so many holes in that there's no way we see this in every case with alibis and it happened here but here it was another thing that helped the jury get to guilty because it made it seem like he was trying to fabricate an alibi to get off from this crime and obviously her testimony i think was pretty damning to him now let's talk a little bit about his background
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Pablo, he was a hardworking guy. He had no criminal record, but he was not an angel. He had been to the Perfect Rack, and probably evident to you now, that was a gang hangout. There were a lot of different gangs. There were a lot of fights, shootouts. I mean, this was just something that happened at the Perfect Rack, and he'd been there a couple times at least.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
His dad may have been a cocaine dealer. In fact, the only arrest on Pablo's record, he had been at his father's house when there was some sort of big drug bust of his father. And he was temporarily arrested. He was released. Didn't have anything to do with it. But nevertheless, he has this close connection to his father. And I will tell you, I am certain.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I'm not going to say Spanish is easy because no other language is easy for me, but Spanish is a little bit easier than some of the things people throw at me, like Dutch and Russian and Chinese and everything else. It's like, oh my goodness.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
that law enforcement viewed Pablo as sort of someone who is probably engaged in all sorts of criminal activity, but we haven't been able to get him yet. You know, he's Pablo Velez Jr., so Pablo Velez Sr., big drug trafficker, what are the chances? Pablo's not involved, right? So this is something that would have automatically put him on the radar.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Now, he had sold his car to Ron Strandberg, who is once again a member of a gang, and sort of a violent person, but he'd never transferred the deeds. And he was apparently willing to report the car stolen without verifying that it was actually stolen. And then when Ron was like, never mind, you know, he didn't think anything of that. He did have a gun. It was legally owned.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It wasn't the gun used in the shooting. And as we said, you know, he'd been cheating on his girlfriend. He was out on the town, right? In other words, he's just the kind of person you would expect would get tagged in a crime like this a crime that he didn't actually commit. He sort of fits the mold for what you would expect to see if you're looking for an actually innocent person.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
We are using something like possession of child pornography to punish someone who has done other things. And that is very much what is happening here. He is not being convicted of the abuse that other people have suffered. In fact, many of his crimes probably are beyond the statute of limitations. You could not prosecute them if you wanted to.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But you're able to use the fact that he did those things in considering the overall sentence.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
and so ordinarily maybe he wouldn't be looking at as much the prosecution was willing for him to get the mandatory minimum so the very minimum that he could get they were willing to take that and the judge said no you're going to get more time i'm taking all of this into account and that was the correct position one other thing i'll say because one of you is already typing the email do not send me an email telling us we should call this child sexual abuse material
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It is child pornography in the courts. I don't even like child sexual abuse material because sexual abuse in the images is not required. A photo that is surreptitiously taken of a child without their knowledge when they are nude is child pornography and it should be punished as such. And as I said, there is this movement.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And I'm not saying the people who use CSAM, which, by the way, is a mouthful as well. I'm not saying that those people are part of that. But I am very concerned about that. The same group of people who push for things like the decriminalization of possessing child pornography using that to say, well, it's not sexual abuse. There's no sexual abuse here. That's not going on.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Well, by the time you're hearing this, you're ready for Christmas.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
That is something I'm concerned about. And I think it's something we all need to be watching for. So I will continue to call it child pornography because that's what it is. And I think that's an accurate statement. And I'm not really sure why people have a problem with it or why we went away from that in the first place. But in the courts, we still call it child pornography.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
They're in the winter season, but it's okay. We're trying to get a little bit of a head given Alice's impending break from the podcast.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, just as 60 years in the making, how three former victims put their abuser behind bars. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my plenteous co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So William will appeal this conviction in 2019. He will claim that the government breached its obligation in the plea agreement by offering evidence at the sentencing hearing, which would cause the sentencing court to impose a longer sentence. This is a real challenge.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So if you enter into a plea agreement, for instance, and you agree, hey, we're going to recommend 12 months and you go in and you say, well, your honor.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
i'm bound by the agreement to offer 12 months but if it were up to me he'd get life right if you say something like that that's not really honoring the plea agreement and you can have that sentence invalidated and sent back for re-sentencing but in this case the court of appeals did affirm the district court and they gave several reasons why they did that number one in this history there's no limitation placed on what information a district court may receive for sentencing purposes
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It could happen any day. We could take a poll. Are we taking a break? I'm looking forward to the break.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It does not just have to be about the crime itself. It is about the entire person. It is about their entire history. It's about their background. It's about their other crimes. In fact, if you were charged with, say, two counts, and you go to trial, and you're acquitted on one of the counts, the court can even take that into account.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
The court can say, okay, fine, the government didn't prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, so you weren't convicted of it, but I find it's more likely than not you did commit the crime, so I'm going to consider that in the sentencing. You consider even that kind of stuff.
The Prosecutors
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And so you had they have this broad discretion and the government did not advocate for anything beyond what they said they were going to advocate for. They recommended the five year sentence of the court and it was up to the court to decide. And it certainly wasn't a problem that his victims were able to talk about this.
The Prosecutors
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And the plea agreement made it clear that he could get up to 20 years imprisonment. Frankly, I wish the judge had just given him 20 years, but it's a difficult situation. So this was something that was going to be considered. He should have known that. And it was not error by the district court to consider that. And it wasn't error by the government to facilitate that.
The Prosecutors
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the district court hearing this information. That's different than if they had then gotten up and said, you know what, we agreed to five, and I guess we're bound to that, but man, I sure wish you could give him eight. They didn't do that, so they didn't violate their obligations.
The Prosecutors
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That will be an issue. That will be an issue.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Yeah. Yeah, I'm still rooting for a Halloween baby, personally.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
We're not trying to scare you with this episode, but we kind of are, but you know, we're not saying, you know, you can never let your children out of your sight or anything along those lines, but it is important that people recognize just how widespread this stuff is and how widespread it has become because of the internet.
The Prosecutors
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And I think another thing we've, we're doing a better job of recognizing that a lot of these sexual abuse, sexual assault type cases are, The statutes and limitations are just not long enough because it often takes a long time for people to feel comfortable even making these kind of claims. We saw that a lot with sort of the Me Too movement and decades old allegations.
The Prosecutors
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I mean, think of like Bill Cosby, for instance. and how that was actually a problem, was the statute of limitations. We're doing better, but we're not there yet. And as we go through this, one thing you should think about wherever you live is advocating for changes to the law about statutes of limitations. As Alice said, they're very important.
The Prosecutors
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They serve important roles for all sorts of reasons we have them. But for the most serious crimes, we often don't. Murder, for instance, famously has no statute of limitations for obvious reasons. these kind of crimes are right up there with murder in my mind. And even if you don't want to say they have no statute of limitations, they should have more than they have.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And you're going to see that as we sort of walk through this. And we're talking about the crimes of William Ayliss, crimes that go much further than distribution of child pornography and crimes that are so heinous that they've earned him the moniker of the monster in the closet.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
According to some of his close family members, and I just want to say, these are crimes for which he has never been charged and never will be charged because of the statute of limitations. But according to his close family members, and we're talking about his brother Robert, who we've already mentioned, his nephew Thomas, and his cousin, Paul.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I'm going to talk about all three of them who were all three his victims and probably were not his only victims. He was a serial abuser. William's brother, nephew, cousin were all subject to his horrific abuse. Now, years later, they would embark on this decades long journey to seek justice against William.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And the information we're going to talk about comes through those victim impact statements we talked about. interviews, things that they were able to do to actually put William in prison. Now, these facts have not been challenged in court, so we can't say that everything has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be true.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But I think given what we know about William, you can have a lot of faith in the story that we're going to tell you. And we want to highlight that that his conviction is a testament to the bravery of these people and their efforts to get one child sex offender off the street and to bring justice to him for his many crimes.
The Prosecutors
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And that's one reason we wanted to share this case, because we do want to highlight that bravery that these men have shown.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Yeah. And I would just say if a child tells you something like this. You need to err on the side of they're telling the truth. I'm not saying that there haven't been cases where children have been wrong about these sort of things or manipulated into certain things. Famously, the satanic panic cases, the child daycare center cases are examples of that.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And children can be manipulated and they can be confused. But your initial position should be, I'm going to believe this. I'm going to investigate this. I'm going to look into it. And I think a lot of people, for whatever reason, and it's very easy to sit here in judgment over those people, they don't want to believe this is true. They don't want to believe it for many different reasons.
The Prosecutors
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They don't want to believe this happened to their children. They don't want to believe their own family member did something. Like this. I mean, that is a crushing allegation to hear. So I can understand the willful disbelief that often happens. But so often you see this story repeated again and again and again. So as hard as it is, you need to take these allegations seriously if you hear them.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Fast forward to 1966. Bob is now 17 years old. He opens up to a girlfriend about the abuse that he has suffered at the hands of his brother. She is the first outsider to know about the abuse. This was incredibly brave of him, particularly in 1966. I can imagine this not going well, but she listens to him. She helps him to see that this is wrong.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It should not have happened to him, and it is not his fault. And she encourages him to go to the authorities. But once again, this is an incredibly difficult place for a 17 year old to be in. And he's not ready to do that. And that's another reason sort of the statute of limitations. You know, the clock is ticking on all this. Right. But he's not ready to do that.
The Prosecutors
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He doesn't feel safe at home anymore. He has nowhere to turn. So he actually decides to join the Navy to get away from home and to get away from. from the abuse. It's 1969, he's 19 years old, and he's actually home from the Navy, and William makes a sexual advance at him. Now, Bob is an adult at this point, and he is physically larger than William.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
He grabs William by the collar, throws him against the wall, and says he will kill him if he ever touches him again. And finally, this puts an end to the abuse that William inflicted on Bob.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Yeah, these kind of cases are not the ones we like to talk about. We often talk about when they're child victims, how difficult they are for us to do. But we really thought about this a lot. And people do need to know, not because we want to scare you, but because people need to know the kind of criminals that are out there, how their crimes can go undetected for a very long time.
The Prosecutors
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So in the sentencing, we learned about some of this that was going on in the 70s and 80s. And we talked about William's nephew, Tom. And he was 22 years younger than Williams. And at the sentencing, he gave a graphic description of the abuse that he suffered at Williams' hands.
The Prosecutors
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When he was a small child in the 70s and 80s, he would have to go to Williams' mother's house after school while his parents worked. Williams' mother was Tom's grandmother. And look, this is a fact of life, right? I mean, a lot of people are having to work multiple jobs, kids, they need somewhere to be when school ends out at three o'clock.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And sometimes that can be the kind of thing that does open them to this kind of exposure. And it certainly happened recently.
The Prosecutors
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to tom tom was only five years old at the time and william was grooming him and it wasn't long before william began molesting and raping tom on an almost daily basis and he did this for years and tom's suffering didn't end there he went on to allege that other neighborhood boys would beat him up constantly because they were also
The Prosecutors
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being molested by William, and Tom, he was the one they could take it out on. He was William's nephew. They couldn't do anything to William, but they could take it out on him, and he was the one paying the price. And William, this also is not that uncommon. Tom would go on to say that William would drive him out to New Jersey where he was further abused by William's friends.
The Prosecutors
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I mean, people would be surprised at how many upstanding members of the community who have no criminal record, who have... No indication that they could do something like this at all are predators or predators who prey on children. And this was something we wanted to talk about, both because of that darkness, but also because of the light and because of how this case ended up.
The Prosecutors
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It's often the case that people who are engaged in this kind of activity, they are not alone. They, especially now with the internet, there are circles and we see this kind of thing happen. And it seemed like it happened to Tom and his home life provided him no reprieve. He was already living in an abusive environment.
The Prosecutors
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household in fact when tom worked up the courage to tell his mother what was happening her response was to beat him severely and he would also claim that his grandmother was aware of the abuse and rather than protecting tom she enabled william
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And this is one of those things that they're running into brick wall after brick wall. And I think at some point they started to feel like, are we ever going to get justice here? And years pass and nothing, nothing happens. And that brings us to 2017.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And at this point, we're half a century after initially speaking up about this, suffering this abuse, reaching out to law enforcement and getting no progress. And Bob and Tom decide at this point, They're going to have to take matters into their own hands. As I said earlier, not necessarily something you should do, but you can't say that they jumped to this.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So this will not be an easy case to talk about. It's going to be a tough one, but we think it's an important one.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
They tried to pursue your sort of typical standard moves to take this person off the street. It is impossible to know. how many people he victimized over this period of time. And in 2017, they are deciding we are going to do whatever we can to stop that, even if it means taking matters into their own hands. And at this point, they had lost contact with William. They didn't know where he was.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
They didn't know who he was. So they created a fake email address, which they used to go on various adult websites looking for William. They figure... William's been abusing people for 50 years. There is no way he could resist the Internet. There is no way he could resist using this new tool to continue his abuse. And wouldn't you know it, they were absolutely right.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
In 2017, so they've been trying this for a while. In 2017, they find him. They find him on Flickr.com. through some sexually charged photos that featured William. At this point, they were able to find out that he lived in Boca Raton, Florida. And this is when Bob goes undercover and using a false identity, he begins corresponding with William via email.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
At the same time, Tom Alas is reaching out to Julie Rendleman, who is a former district attorney in New York, and sharing their story. And Julie asked the men to come see her in New York, which they did. And after speaking with them, she reached out to the Brooklyn DA to see once again, is there anything that can be done? But the statute of limitations is fatal to these claims, and it had passed.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But the men stay in touch with Julie as they continue this catfishing effort online to try and finally get some evidence they can use to bring William to justice.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Let me just go ahead and say, for those of you out there wondering, this is not entrapment. It's almost never entrapment. Entrapment's like something you see on television. In real life, the only entrapment is if basically you have no proclivity to commit a crime and someone convinces you to commit a crime. William is way down that path.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So you cannot be entrapped into doing something you would do anyway. So he's fine.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Yeah, it's really, really hard to prove entrapment. It's like an incredibly high bar. So it's not an issue here. So in 2018, an FBI agent in Florida reaches out to Bob, and Bob tells him everything about William's history of abuse and his own vigilante efforts online to catch William in the act.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
At this point, the FBI, as we said, takes control of the email account, and they begin working the case. And they are now the ones who are emailing with William. By April, the FBI is executing a search warrant on 80-year-old William's home. He is 80 at this point, and as Alice said, he is still committing these crimes. And they're able to find the evidence they need to finally put him behind bars.
The Prosecutors
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Because of Robert, Tom, and Paul's efforts, they catch William distributing child pornography. And though the men may not have been able to be vindicated for their abuse, they were responsible for ensuring that William was finally held accountable in some regard.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And while we're talking about heroes here, I think it's certainly the case that Bob and Tom and Paul are heroes. But just another example I want to give you of how people can come together to make a difference in this. This area of criminality is really disturbing. And the more you learn about it, the more disturbing it gets.
The Prosecutors
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The child pornography industry, it's not just one-off photographs or something like that. Oftentimes, these are entire series. So the three most popular series are the Amy series, the Vicki series, and the Andy series. If someone is arrested for child pornography, the chances that they will possess some of those images is incredibly high.
The Prosecutors
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Amy, who, that is not her name, but at some point about 15 years ago, she and a lawyer decided they were going to start, they get notified. If you have one of these series, the FBI notifies you every single time your photos are found. So every single time someone out there who is in possession of child pornography has your photos, you get a call about it.
The Prosecutors
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And you can imagine the effect that has on people. Well, Amy got together with a lawyer and said, you know what? I'm spending a whole lot of money on therapy. These people should pay for it. And so she began to seek restitution in all of those cases. She would get notified by the FBI, and she would immediately make a restitution request.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And she would make a restitution request against these people, and she wouldn't just ask for a little bit of money. She would ask for all of her therapy costs, her lost wages, pain and suffering, and she got up to a number that was like $15 million or so.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
and she would seek this restitution, and it would be jointly and severally liable, which means every single person who was prosecuted, if they could convince the judge to enter this restitution order, is now on the hook for the full amount. And if eventually the full amount gets paid out, then she can't seek that restitution anymore.
The Prosecutors
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In 2014, one of these cases went all the way to the Supreme Court in a case called And I remember when this happened, because the Supreme Court basically said, you can't do this under the statute. Justice Sotomayor and Chief Justice Roberts wrote a concurrence slash dissent, basically saying, hey, this would be the way to fix this. You could fix this. Congress could fix this.
The Prosecutors
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And in sort of a and I was working in Congress at the time. And this was something that I was very passionate about. And Congress got really passionate about. And it was an example of reaching across the aisle. And so it ended up being a bipartisan bill with Senator Hatch.
The Prosecutors
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Senator Feinstein, Senator Grassley, and Senator Schumer, who came together and wrote this piece of legislation that was eventually called the Amy, Vicki, and Andy Child Pornography Victim Assistance Act of 2018. So 2014 is when the Supreme Court decision came down, took them four years, they got it passed, President Trump signed it, and now it's law.
The Prosecutors
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And now these people who are victims of child pornography are able to seek, in a way that is perfectly legal and perfectly in keeping with Supreme Court precedent and everything else, this kind of restitution. And it's a huge advantage for them. And it's a huge way to fight back against their abusers. So I say all that just to say, don't feel like the law can't change.
The Prosecutors
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And don't feel like people aren't willing to fight to... Create new tools to help push back against this. It is a huge problem and we have to take it seriously. And I think we do need more tools. One of the big things is the statute of limitations issue. And I hope it's something that states around the country will deal with.
The Prosecutors
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And I hope the federal government will deal with it as well, because frankly, five years isn't enough. You know, that's not enough. You shouldn't, you should not be on the hook that if you're, if you're abused, you have five years from when you turn 18, you got until you're 23.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
As if, you know, when you're a 23 year old, you, you would be able to process this in a way that would allow you to prosecute these kinds of cases, something happens to you when you're five. So that is a big thing. And hopefully one day that'll change.
The Prosecutors
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Yeah, let's answer some questions. One question I'll answer right now, people ask how you can help. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, NCMEC, is probably the biggest sort of advocacy group for legislation and just actions that can help with children who are suffering from this.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
support them donate to them consider donating to them they're a great resource for this so it can be hard to know like what can I do that's one thing you can do and the other thing you can do which is a small thing and hopefully most of you are never in this position but be someone that people can come to that they know if something like this is happening to them they can come to you and you'll believe them because there's so many kids out there who are suffering this and they don't know where to turn to and they don't know who to trust be the person they can trust
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
because there are more we this has been a very dark episode and we've talked a lot about sort of all the monsters amongst us there are still more good people out there way more and and we can do a lot to help in our community so we should do that okay with that let's absolutely answer some questions we gotta do some questions that one was dark and i'm glad we did it but i'm looking forward to getting back to good old-fashioned murder i was gonna say this is way darker than murder for me
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I think she fell down the stairs, actually.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I think the owl theory is really interesting. As I've said, I still believe that the owl theory has more evidence in support of it than any other theory. I think that's 100% true. But I really kind of feel like she just fell down the stairs and that that's the simple answer and that nobody wants to hear that, right?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Like, a lot of the... You know, it's kind of funny because in some ways I almost want to revisit that case because... So much of the expert testimony has now been discredited, right? Like, can you trust Henry Lee anymore for anything? Now, I'll say this about Henry Lee, and we've talked about expertise before. The things that Henry Lee says in that case make sense to me.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And we talk about how do you decide whether or not to believe an expert? We got two experts saying the opposite thing. What do you do? You use your own common sense, you use your own experience. It makes sense to me that if, for instance, someone is being beaten with an object, and there's blood everywhere, and the object's going up and the object's going down, there should be some cast-off.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
You should see that. That makes 100%. I don't think you need to be a doctor of physics or forensics to know that that's true. So that's the kind of forensic evidence that I find pretty powerful. But the rest of Dr. Henry Lee, who knows? So, yeah, I mean, I will say this. We have another question, which I'll just go ahead. Let's see. Where is it?
The Prosecutors
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I'm going to ask this question because this rolls right into it. Okay. Okay. This is from Danny. Of the major crimes you've researched for the show, who would you be most surprised about to find out was actually innocent? And I'm going to add on Peterson on this as well. Scott Peterson, Casey Anthony, or Adnan Syed?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So the first thing I want to say about that is the one that I feel the least sure about what happened is
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
is michael peterson michael peterson is a case that i don't know exactly what happened i have loads of reasonable doubt i could not i could not convict that is to me the reasonable doubt case where you see the evidence you see the arguments for murder how you could convict him i don't know you know i still don't know how you could convict him he may have done it
The Prosecutors
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You know, maybe he beat her to death. Maybe that's what happened. But that's the one that has the most reasonable doubt for me. As far as of those crimes, who would I be most surprised to find out was actually innocent? Most surprised? I'm going to do least surprised. Because Scott Peterson and Adnan Zayed are absolutely guilty. They are absolutely guilty.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And I don't care what anybody ever says about that.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
No, Scott Peterson and Adnan are absolutely guilty.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Scott Peterson and Adnan Syed are absolutely guilty. Okay? They're guilty. And the people who don't think they're guilty, that's fine. Free country. You can believe what you want to believe. You're wrong. They are guilty. So I guess I'd be most surprised if they turn out to be innocent since they are clearly guilty.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
The thing about Casey Anthony, the only thing I'll say about Casey Anthony, I think Casey Anthony is guilty. I would have voted to convict Casey Anthony. Casey Anthony, there's just enough about that case
The Prosecutors
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that you could convince me that she was really just so terribly neglectful and just didn't really care about her daughter that much, that her daughter did accidentally drown because she was so negligent.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And then rather than, I don't know, call the ambulance, she just put her in a trash bag like she was trash and threw her in the forest, because that's kind of the awful, horrible person she is, right? I could almost be convinced of that. I don't see any evidence of that. Now, the evidence I see is that she did it on purpose.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But, you know, I could be convinced of Casey Anthony based on the evidence we have. Now, you know, once again, if a videotape comes out of Scott Peterson, you know, I don't know, in another country when Lacey died, I guess I would have to consider that. But it would take something like that for me to believe it.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Okay. One last question. This is the most important question of the night. Oh, this is from Cecilia. Cecilia wants to know, is it a grilled cheese or a cheese toasty?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I've heard cheese toastie, but I'm not sure where it comes from.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I think it's like a... It feels like a Boston thing, right? Cheese toastie.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It appears in Britain they call them cheese toasties. So maybe that's where it comes from.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Justin wants to know, with or without tomato soup? I love grilled cheese with tomato soup.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Just American cheese? Or did you go fancy cheese?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
That kind of grilled cheese. These days, you go to a restaurant and they're offering you $35 grilled cheeses.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I know. That's what I was just thinking. Unfortunately, we don't have, you know, all we have is like fancy bread.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
White bread. What you want. The best grilled cheese sandwich has no nutritional value. You're absolutely right. It's white bread with American cheese and butter. That's what you want. That's what you want. That's what makes you happy. Okay, well.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Yeah. See, we need more of those. So just keep sending us those. We got tons of questions, but a lot of them are really deep and thoughtful. And it's like, ah, you know, when we finish, I can barely even think anymore, much less answer these really deep and thoughtful questions.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
See, when we got married, you weren't part of the picture yet, but we just got sauce barbecue to cater. I don't know if you've ever been to sauce and we didn't have a cake. We had banana pudding and it was so popular. We didn't actually get any of the banana. By the time we got there, like all the banana pudding was gone. It was like, man, people love that banana pudding.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But yeah, so, but I'm with you on the, the mashed potato bar. Always one of my favorites. Love that.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Okay. So, thank you guys once again for the questions and for joining us tonight. I know this was a tough conversation, but as I said, I think it's an important one. And, you know, don't get mad at me if you want to call it CSAM. We're all on the same page. We're all fighting the same fight. I just have strong feelings about it. But...
The Prosecutors
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If you have thoughts, shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com and prosecutorspod for all your social media. One thing I will say, I don't think the chances of this are great, but I'm going to say it anyways. If you are someone who was victimized by William, he will be out of prison here in a few months. And maybe the statute of limitations has not run on your case.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So it would certainly be something worth maybe putting a phone call into the FBI and saying, hey, you have this case out of Florida. I have some information. If you'd rather talk to us, that's fine. We say that all the time. I know it's a difficult thing. But just know that if you were victimized by him, he has been brought to justice at least somewhat.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And there are people out there who are willing to fight for you. You're not alone anymore. You might have thought you were alone all these years, but you're not. Not anymore. And who knows? Maybe we could keep him in prison where he belongs. Thank you to all our patrons. If you want to see these episodes early and ad-free, join us. We have a lot of fun, usually.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Maybe not so much tonight, but usually. And you get to see our smiling faces. And isn't that what it's all about? By the time you're hearing this, we're close to Christmas, so Merry Christmas to all of you. I hope you guys are having a great holiday season. We will probably, maybe, depending on what happens with Alice here in the next few days, have one more episode, sort of a retrospective.
The Prosecutors
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Talk about our favorite cases, and then we will be done for the year. You will have an episode on Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, but they will be bloopers. And then we'll be back with you in 2025. We have such sights to show you. You're going to love it. It's going to be a great year, I can tell you. It's going to be epic. So don't leave us.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Okay, Alice, before we sign off for tonight, do you have anything else you want to add?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
All right, guys. We will be back next week. But until then, I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
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And we are The Prosecutors. Yeah, you guys better enjoy this because, you know, we're not going to have any lives for like two months.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It'll probably just be me like hanging out.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Now I'll say this, Robert, he's brave and courageous in doing this. I would not recommend doing something like this because he really puts himself in a dangerous position in a couple ways. Number one, William is sending him images that are illegal.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And you can imagine getting in a situation where you're trying to explain this to a prosecutor and saying, oh no, I was just trying to catch the bad guy. And the prosecutor's saying... Sure you were. Where are you going to sign on the guilty plea? Right. So so I understand why he did what he did. But this was dangerous.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And also, you know, I mean, if his brother had found out who he was talking to, that could have turned into some physical danger as well, I can imagine. So, Robert, he receives these and he does the right thing. He immediately turns and calls the FBI. And they interview him in February of 2018. Now he tells them what he's doing and why he's doing it.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And he gives them the login information to his fake email account so they can verify what has been sent to him and his story. So they know he's telling the truth. And this is a really great end for them because one of the things that the FBI does and other organizations such as NCMEC, they have people on these sites trying to build up credibility
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
with various predators so that they can catch them in the act in something just like this so at this point fbi agents actually assume the online identity that he had created and they start interacting now with william and of course they're making a copy of the email account they're gathering all this information they are subpoenaing various entities like google
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Google was able to confirm the subscriber name for the email address, that it was William Alas. AT&T confirmed the subscriber of the IP address, which they were able to isolate, was William Alas. And at this point, they've built a pretty good case on him. On August 4th, 2018, they execute a search warrant at his Boca Raton home.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Several devices are seized, and after a review, they are determined to have child pornography on them. In an interview following the search, Ailis admitted to having sole access to the email address and confessed to viewing and downloading child pornography.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Which, you know, I don't know. These crimes, you always feel like, I'm glad the judge varied upward, but someone like this should never get out. And this goes to sentencing because, as Alice said, you're sort of using this, this is the Al Capone method. And we see this sometimes. I think this is a good point to make, sort of a minor, small p political point.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
there is a movement out there and you need to be aware of it of people who think that mere quote-unquote mere possession of child pornography is over prosecuted and over punished and you will occasionally see op-eds and various newspapers about this and just remember when these cases are prosecuted almost always
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Beam made it so much easier, and I was able to wake up energized, not groggy.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student-to-teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So, when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Holmes.com. We've done your homework. Okay, so that's sort of Damien and that sort of stuff. Like I said, we'll talk more about this later when we're talking about victimology and everything else and profiles of the offender. So February 1993.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So after this, Damien, he gets out of this facility, not necessarily saying that he is the subject of what occurs here, but this was testified to at trial. So three months before the murders, a man dressed entirely in black pulled into the driveway of Chris Byer's house in a green car. He got out with a camera, and he took a picture of Chris. At the time, Chris's parents were gone.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
They had gone to the store to buy some cigarettes and I think some milk, maybe. They had come back, and this occurred while they were gone. And Chris immediately runs out to them and is like, Mommy, Mommy, this strange man was taking my picture.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This becomes significant later on and there's a reason that it's in the trial because there is talk of photographs of the victims and whether or not those were available to the people who would eventually be convicted of the crime.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So this case is difficult because despite what people will tell you, the police interviewed a ton of people. And a lot of them were interviewed after the three were arrested. And I don't buy into the whole, you know, Damien says that West Memphis was the second Salem, right? That's his take on this. But once they were arrested, everybody had a story.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Everybody had a story about a time Damien was hiding in the bushes or he was following them or he said he was going to kill him or he did this or he did that. And trying to determine whether those stories are true or false is very difficult. She and her parents both say this was something that they reported contemporaneously with the event.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
The whole like she could hear him in her mind thing is something that is reported later on. But this also is consistent with some of the things people were saying about Damien at the time, because very much the kids in high school and the people in the community believe Damien Echols was basically a Satanist, a devil worshiper. He probably could control people's minds. Right.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So they talked about this kind of stuff. And the whole next victim thing, it seems like everybody in West Memphis thought they were the next victim. There was this whole story that Damien, he needed to kill, like, I forget how many people, five, seven, nine people or something. If he killed that many people, he'd become a god.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And, you know, they were going to be the next ones, or these other people were going to be the next ones. So you have to take a lot of this with a grain of salt. We're going to report on a lot of it just because it's in the file. We're not going to tell you everything.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
We're not going to give you every single story of somebody at the bowling alley or at the softball field who Damien appeared, turned into a bat and flew away or whatever. We're not going to do that, but we are going to share some of this with you. Just to give you an idea of sort of what the mentality was of people in the area at the time.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And one thing that I think is difficult to overstate, but is often understated, is the just inherent violence of this society that these kids are growing up in. The South in the early 90s in the rural areas, lower middle class areas, they were rough. There was a lot of domestic violence, and there was just a lot of violence in general. And we're about to see one of those circumstances.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
March 12th, 1993, Jesse Miskelly is accused of punching a 13-year-old girl named Tiffany Allen, no relation to the detective. in the face at a park in West Memphis. Mescali had apparently bragged to his friends that he'd had sex with her. She denied it and slapped Jesse over the accusations. Jesse then went after her. She ran.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
He chased her down and assaulted her, including punching her in the face. This is the kind of thing, this is the kind of environment that all these people are embroiled in. And this is another sort of instance of violence in the history of some of the people who were involved in this crime. So on May 1st, Jason traded some shirts with Kenny Newell for a knife and a mountain climbing pack.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Yeah. And I mean, this is going to be a long one just because of how we're doing it. We're basically doing a full podcast on this and then we're going to deep dive into various aspects of this. So when we finish with what is described as the outline in my files, probably most of you will be satisfied, but we won't be. So we're going to do deep dives into various aspects of it.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
About a week later, according to Kenny, Jason sent his brother Matthew back to trade the knife back to Newell because in his brother's words, They're trying to blame him for using it or something. So this is what Kenny said. This would have been a couple days, three or four days after the murders. Take it for what it's worth. It's a report in the file.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Okay, so now we are getting right up to the crime. And we talk about some of the moments when you're studying these cases that you'd never heard before that kind of slap you in the face. Some of them slap you in the face so hard that you're like, oh, my goodness, they did it. Right. I mean, there are some moments that are just they're so crystallizing and clarifying.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This one for me was really surprising because I had never heard it before. I mean, it's possible people talk about this, but they certainly don't focus on it. I'd never heard about it before. And it immediately struck me as such a critical moment in this case. And I was surprised people don't talk about it. So Tuesday, May 4th, that would be the day before this murder occurs. Damien's mother.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Now remember, Damien has been through it. His parents were married. They divorced when he was young. It really tore him up. He talks to his counselors about how difficult it was for him, how emotional it was for him. He then gets thrown into this new family with Eccles, who he says is abusive to him and to his sister. And, you know, his mom is picking Jack Echols over her kids.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Very difficult situation. There's the whole move to Oregon. There's the move back. Then there's Pamela and Eddie Joe Hutchinson. They get back together, which you would think, given how traumatic it was when they broke up, would have been a really important thing for Damien. Finally, maybe he's got some structure and stability.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But on Tuesday, May 4th, Damien's mother, Pamela, and her husband, Eddie Joe, separated. Hutchinson had wanted his wife's ex-husband, Jack Eccles, not to have anything to do with the children. Not too high an ask, I would think, but she would not accede to this demand, and so he decides he's going to leave. Damien was so upset that he cried throughout the day and the breakup.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Pam stated that Eddie had abandoned them once before when Damien was young, and now it seemed like he was doing it again. By 9 p.m. that night, Eddie was completely moved out. Now, Pamela would tell this story on the 12th of May, so only about eight days later.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Now, months later, once the alibi for Damien becomes important, once I think maybe she recognizes that this is problematic, suddenly the date changes. And she says that actually this separation happened on May 9th. Now, this is a strange change in the story because the first time she told this, was the 12th, only three days later.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So it seems highly unlikely that she would mess up the date a mere three days after it happened, given how significant the event would be. And if you're thinking about sort of what causes people to commit crimes, like the one we're gonna talk about, This kind of jarring personal event is exactly the kind of trigger that you would look for.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And apparently it is something that really bothered Damien. And it is something that you almost never hear discussed.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So I just want to make one point about this day. This day is the most difficult day because it's the day the crime is going to happen. The times are all over the place. This is all based essentially on eyewitness testimony. We talked about this before. Eyewitness testimony is often not very accurate when it comes to time. There will be conflicting times. There will be conflicting stories.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
We're going to tell you multiple times that things happen. We'll try and warn you when that happens. I acknowledge that will be difficult to follow, but we're just trying to give you what the various witnesses are saying. But just know none of these times are going to be exact. And so you got to give some on that.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You cannot base your opinion on this case because somebody said something happened at 530. You just can't. We're going to give you the best we can. I know it's gonna be hard to follow, but we'll get there.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I do want to say, as we get started, one quick, completely unrelated thing. Today, inconceivable story of Temujin Kinsu came out. It's narrated by Jason Usry, who's done a lot of original reporting in that case. That is a case we covered very early on in our podcast. We have not been shy in saying that we think Timogen is innocent.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Between 12 and 1.30, Jesse Miskelly finishes his job at Woodlawn Roofing. He tells a friend he's going home to get a sandwich. That same friend will see him again at around 3.30 with his girlfriend, Susie Brewer. The last time this friend sees him is at 5.30. At that point, Jesse is alone.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Another friend, Josh Darby, asked Jesse what he was going to do that night, and he told him he was going home.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Ricky Dees who works at West Memphis Framing this roofing job or another roofing job I guess stops by Jesse's home around 1.30 to see if he can help him clean a job site and this is sort of Jesse's deal he's doing these odd jobs he's helping out a lot of manual labor that's how he makes money he isn't going to school his father tells him that Jesse is going to Stephanie Dollar's house and he's gone there to babysit because once again that's another way he makes money is he keeps people's kids
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
At 2.45, Pam Hobbs picks Stevie up from school slightly early. Never been entirely clear to me why she picked him up. She may have said in one of her interviews. Nevertheless, she picks him up at 12.45 and they walk home together. At 3 o'clock, the school bell rings. Michael Moore walks back to his house that backs up to the school. Chris Byers is only a little further away.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Stevie, as we said earlier, lives about a half mile away, and he lives the farthest from the school. Michael goes home and changes into his Cub Scout uniform. His sister gives him permission to go over to Stevie's. So typical day, nice May afternoon. This is the kind of day you're going to go meet up with your friends, play around the neighborhood, and that's what they intend to do.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So if you're somebody who came here because you're interested in this case, because it's an innocence case, check that out. That is one that, you know, this is a case that divides people. Wars have been started over less than this case. But Timogen Kinsu is one that really brings people together. And it's a great podcast. And you should check it out.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And this is something to remember because she tells him this, the 4.30 thing. He's not going to be home by 4.30. And he's almost certainly not deceased by 4.30. And this is something that there is one thing about this entire timeline that fascinates me is it seems like this crime happened pretty late, either in the afternoon or even the early night.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And you've got these kids who are all supposed to be home. Now, granted, look, kids are late all the time. But this is really late. Now, he didn't have a watch and she talks about how she thought he did or she thought Michael had a watch. She thought somebody had a watch and there's a little bit of confusion there.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But the fact that none of the kids really make any effort to go home, I think is interesting. It's one of those things that sort of I wonder why that is.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I have a controversial theory that I'll share later on. Not now. You have to wait. Okay.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So at 3.30, more grain of salt stuff in a questionable sighting. Carrie Morris will claim to see Michael Moore walking down the road a couple of blocks ahead of Damien Echols, who is following him. Once again, this is sort of, you can imagine how this story develops, right? She says that Michael was going to get his bicycle to go trail riding with Stevie Branch.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Okay, with that said, we're back with the West Memphis Three. We were talking about the timeline leading up to this. We focused a lot on the three who will become the West Memphis Three, Damian Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miskelly, and sort of some of the things they were doing in the lead-up to May of 1993.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
She would reaffirm this sighting in a 2018 Facebook post. So to this day, 2018 is now seven years ago, but nevertheless, we'll say to this day. To this day, she sticks with this. Now, at the time she went to the police with this sighting, she was on the hook for a theft of property charge. So we can imagine how that would be useful to her. That charge was dismissed, which...
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
one month later she didn't testify and in 1996 she would actually catch a three-year prison sentence for accessory after the fact when she helped hide bloody clothes after her husband stabbed another woman to death so as incriminating as this sighting might be and i have seen people who really grab onto this it's like you see he was already stalking them right
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I think this lady's credibility, like a lot of people in this case who have credibility issues, this lady's credibility issues are serious enough that I think we can dispense of this as a valid siding altogether. And it also doesn't really fit with anything else in the timeline.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
If you missed the first episode, we also talked about a lot of the players in this case, the background of this case, so it's worth checking out. But now we're into 1993, which is the year that this murder is going to happen. And I think we're definitely probably going to get to the day of the murder itself, if not through it, in today's episode.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So with all that said, we were in the middle of sort of Damien has had a lot of mental health issues. He has been institutionalized two or three times at this point. And we are going through some of the things that happened while he was institutionalized.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It seems like you remember this. This may seem like a contradiction because during other tellings of the story, Damien and Dami were there watching. And this is often what you'll hear that they were there watching.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But it seems like that probably happened a different time and not this time because Hubert doesn't remember them being there. And he seems to have a pretty good memory of everything that happened that night. So at 4.30, Terry Hobbs arrives home from work. He delivers ice cream, which seems like a pretty cool job to me.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So he delivers ice cream to stores for Memphis ice cream, sort of drives around the tri-state area dropping off ice cream. And he asked Pam Hobbs where Frog Leg was. That was his nickname for Stevie. This goes all the way back, sort of an early event in their relationship when Stevie just jumped into the water as a baby. And he said he looked just like a little frog swimming around in there.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So he always called him Frog Leg. At 445, Pam and Terry ride by Michael Moore's house to see if Stevie is around. He wasn't, and neither was Christopher. Pam had to go to work at Catfish Island, which was a restaurant she worked at. Her shift started at 5.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This is an important thing to remember. A lot of people didn't even have phones. A lot of people didn't have call waiting. Voicemail. They wouldn't beep in. Yeah, voicemail. If you had one phone and somebody called, it was just busy. And so we're going to see that happen a lot and actually becomes pretty important throughout this case.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This one's probably accurate, by the way, because the Scout t-shirt is a very definitive thing.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I just want to point out, we're about to get in a stretch of the timeline where like 10 different things all happen at 530.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
None of which can actually have happened or only one of which can happen.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This seems like such a valid sighting on the surface because of the two boys riding the one bike. Now, you got the four boys. This is the mystery fourth person. But maybe it happened later. I mean, once again, times. Times. I mean, who knows what time it was, right? But this is what he says he saw. OK, now at 530. Now, we've mentioned Jamie Clark Ballard several times.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I just want to note much of her recollection, all of her recollection comes from an affidavit she made 15 years later, very long time after this happened. She was not interviewed by police at the time. This is one of the weaknesses of the police investigation. They essentially interviewed a lot of people sort of north and west. Jamie Clark Ballard lives further south.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
She lives down next to the Hobbs, basically. And everything that she's telling us is her recollection many years later. She basically says, look, nobody ever asked me, so I never said it. A lot of people don't believe her. There are a lot of holes that people punch in her story. We will talk about all that later.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But just know for now, we are just giving you sort of what people say they saw in that day. So Jamie Clark Ballard at 530, she will say in a 2009 affidavit. that she saw the three boys playing in her large backyard. Ballard lived only three doors down from the Hobbs household, which puts them on the other side of the neighborhood from basically all the other sightings, if this is true.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Now, I will note one of the reasons all the other sightings put the kids in the north part is because that's where all the witnesses were interviewed. So maybe if you'd interviewed more people in the south, they would have seen the boys too. How accurate would those have been? I don't know. If you plot all this stuff on a map, she's going to be your outlier. But she's not alone.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Her mother, Deborah Moyer, will say, also in 2009, that around this time, between 530 and 630, she also saw three boys playing in the backyard. It could also be other boys. That's a possibility, too. The backyard ran up to the bayou and did not have a fence. The bayou is that long canal. So she didn't like it when children played there. She was worried they'd get hurt.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This is one of the reasons she remembers this because it caused her anxiety. And she actually decided she was going to say something to the boys about this. At the same time, around 530, Terry Hobbs and his daughter Amanda start looking for Stevie. Remember, Terry has taken his wife. He has dropped her off at the Catfish Island.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Amanda is younger than Stevie, so she can't really just be left alone. So if he's going to drive around and look for Stevie, he's going to need to do it with Amanda. And Stevie was supposed to be home by 430, so he's about an hour late. I don't think at this point Terry is that concerned, but nevertheless, he's out looking for him.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
At the same time, at 530, at the same time all this is happening all over the neighborhood, this did happen. John Mark Byers finds Chris riding his skateboard. And he's riding it in the street. It's very dangerous. He's told him not to do that. And he actually gives him a whipping with his belt for it.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
He then leaves Chris in the carport, which is like, you know, that sort of an overhang where you park your car outside and tells him to clean it up. He says he'll be back after he picks up Ryan. So he's got, you remember, Ryan's testifying in this whole court hearing. He's got to go pick him up.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This absolutely happened, and this really makes you doubt basically every other sighting we just talked about, at least that they happened when we were told they happened. But when Byers returns, Christopher is not at home. And at this point, Byers realizes something is wrong.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This seems strange to him because he's already punished Chris, and Chris is supposed to be doing this, and Chris is a rambunctious kid. Often described as sort of very energetic and kind of random in his behavior. I think he was on some medication, some Ritalin for that.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And the fact that he's not there, though, strikes Byers as strange because this is something that's obviously going to get him in a lot of trouble. So he is concerned when he does not see him. Guys, I don't know if you've noticed, but these days it seems like you have to sign up for 37 different streaming services if you want to see all the shows people are watching.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And what always happens to me is I then completely forget about it. I have no idea which streaming services I have and which ones I don't have. But what I do notice is my credit card bill every month, which seems so much higher. And that's why I'm really excited to talk to you guys about Rocket Money.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You know, Alice and I are always looking to be more healthy, and we were just talking about how fasting is one of the best ways to do that. But it's so hard when you don't get to eat anything. For me, that seems like a nightmare. Well, that's where Prolon comes in. When I first heard about the five-day fasting mimicking diet, I thought, I can't do this. I can't not eat for five days.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But the great thing about Prolon is that's not what you're doing. It's not that you're not eating for five days. Instead, you're using their science backed program to convince your body you're fasting while you're able to enjoy things like soups, snacks, and beverages designed to nourish the body while keeping it in a fasting state, triggering cellular rejuvenation and renewal.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And I can tell you when you do it, It is amazing by day two or three how much better you feel. It will change your entire perspective on fasting, on eating, on dieting, on everything. NextGen builds on the original Prolon with 100% organic soups and teas, a richer taste, and ready-to-eat meals. It's developed over decades at USC's Longevity Institute and backed by top U.S. medical centers.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Prolon has been shown to support biological age reduction, metabolic health, skin appearance, fat loss, and energy.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Like Alice said, Quinn's has premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. I tell you what, when I travel these days, unfortunately, it's usually for business. And I always need a good sports coat because I don't want to wear a suit everywhere I go. So I get sports coat. Got one from Quince. It is awesome. I love it.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And by partnering directly with Top Factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. So for your next trip... Treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Go to quince.com slash prosecutors for 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash prosecutors to get free shipping and 365-day returns. What do you have to lose? Go to quince.com slash prosecutors. Guys, we want to talk about one of our favorite podcasts and one of our favorite creators, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You know him as the New York Times bestselling author of 46 books. He's an investigative journalist and winner of the Excellence in Investigative Journalism Award from the Society of Professional Journalists. If there's one thing we need more of... It's people who actually understand how to research and chase a story. And he has absolutely done that.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
In fact, he consulted on the first season of the hit Showtime cable television series, Dexter. And he is executive producer, writer and co-host of the number one Apple true crime podcast franchise, Paper Ghosts.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And if you read these psychological reports, you see this is in a lot of ways very typical because Damien has a rough life. He has an abusive family. His stepfather is abusive to him. He is an outsider. He is not like other kids. He is made fun of. He brings some of it on himself. He's violent. He does things like tries to set the school on fire, all that sort of stuff.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And I think it's possible, by the way, that the two boys had gone into Robin Hood and come back out because you see this sort of, you know, multiple times people are seeing kids sort of going into that area. And it can't be the last time they went into that area because Chris is going to be seen with them later.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So I wonder if there was a little bit of, you know, back and forth in and out of that woods thing.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
David Jacoby and Terry have had a little bit of falling out in the years after this. And so now Terry basically says he was concerned the whole time and looking for Stevie. And Jacoby's like, nah, man, he came over and played guitar for a little while. And there are people who think that Terry Hobbs was involved. There are people who think that Jacoby was involved.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
There are people who think Terry Hobbs was involved, but not Jacoby. And we'll talk more about that later. But I will say this. I don't know that Terry Hobbs would have been that concerned at that point. So it wouldn't surprise me if he did just go over there and play guitar. But then maybe later on, once he knows what happened, he kind of feels bad about that.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And so the story changes to like, no, no, I was looking the whole time. Right. I mean, who knows? But if you're trying to figure out where Terry Hobbs was, this is a moment in time that you can at least anchor something to.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And this is sort of a mystery, too. Did they have the bags or not? Tried to figure this out and couldn't really do it. And I don't know the answer to this. Like, I don't know if, for instance, their book bags were missing from their house. Certainly there were none found at the crime scene. Maybe you imagine if someone killed them, they would have taken them with them.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And, you know, the old saying of like hurt people, hurt people like it is not surprising that he reacts this way. And the files talk about how this is sort of his defense mechanism in order to protect himself from all the bad things coming at him. He has become the aggressor. And that's how he sort of prevents this stuff from hurting him.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And part of this is just a study in eyewitness testimony and how flawed it is. You know, and we can try and make heads or tails out of all of this, but it's hard to do that. This case is, to me, is absolutely fascinating. I don't know about the rest of you, but we got a lot more to go. The boys are going to be cited in various places several times.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Jamie Clark Ballard is going to tell a story which is very incriminating of someone who is not the West Memphis Three. And then we're going to talk about the search, how it intensified, and the finding of the boys. And what happened after that, the investigation, how police eventually settled on Damien, Jason, and Jesse as being the people who were responsible for this incident.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Okay, so we have barely scratched the surface here. We have so much more to talk about, but we want to hear your thoughts. Shoot us an email at prosecutorspod at gmail.com at prosecutorspod for all your social media. Join us on the gallery where the discussion is already going hot and heavy. And we're just recording the second episode. We're still like a month away from releasing it publicly.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So... If you want to hear these episodes early, if you'd like to watch us film them, or if you're just somebody who likes to listen to stuff without ads, you can join our Patreon for as little as $3 a month. You can get every episode early and ad free. Alice, do you have time for a question or do you need to go?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Let's do it. Okay. Are you enjoying covering this case so far?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Oh, look, I will say this. This is it's going to be the longest case we ever did.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
My kingdom for more circumstantial evidence in this case. People out there who want to say a case is all circumstantial, they want direct evidence. Well, you got it here. You got all the direct evidence in the world. You got witnesses left and right telling you what happened that day. But you got very little circumstantial evidence that you can actually build some sort of solid timeline on.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Yeah. And we're going to have a few other things later on, which may or may not be helpful, but unfortunately they're all tied to people's recollection. So, hey, this is a study in that kind of problem with cases, but it is endlessly fascinating and it is more complex and more murky than any case we've ever done.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Some of the other cases, we did 14 episodes on Adnan Syed, and I'm still not sure how we got 14 episodes on that because that case, in comparison, is so straightforward. Whereas this one, we are really going to have to dig into this if we find our way out to the other end. So speaking of Adnan, Zimray2 has a question. Zimray says, and this is a great question, Zimray.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I'm not being critical of you at all. This is actually a really good question because in answering it, I think you'll understand how the same kind of evidence in two different cases can be wildly different. So Zimray says, in the Adnan case, you said the touch DNA found on Hayes' shoes was insignificant.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
However, in the recent Moscow murders case, four college students killed in Moscow, the basis of the arrest of the main suspect, Brian Koberger, was touch DNA on the knife sheath he allegedly left behind. Would you please explain why you believe touch DNA evidence is insignificant in the one case and yet is seemingly the total basis of the case against Brian Koberger?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Exactly. And one other thing I'll say about Koberger, your question assumes a premise that is incorrect. It is not the only evidence against him. There's also cell phone evidence putting his vehicle and putting his cell phone and video of his vehicle in the area around the time of the murder.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So you have cell phone evidence putting him there, his vehicle putting him there, and then his DNA in a place inside the apartment where it shouldn't be because he's no reason for him to have been in there. And oh, by the way, the DNA is, Alice says, on the knife sheath. Let's compare that to what you have in Heyman Lee's case. You have this pair of shoes, which was in the backseat of the car.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
The DNA is on the bottom of her shoe. So when you walk, the bottom of your feet touch the ground and pick up unknown amounts of DNA. The DNA is unknown DNA. Let's say there was Alonzo Sellers. Alonzo Sellers found her body, called the police. If there had been Alonzo Sellers' DNA on the bottom of her shoes, that would be evidence.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Because then you're like, much like the Brian Koburger case, why would he have ever touched her shoes? That would be your question. You don't have that. You have unknown touch DNA. Could be anybody's. Maybe it is the murderer, but it is as likely, if not far more likely, to be basically anyone in Baltimore, or anyone that she's ever interacted with, or anyone in that school, or a police officer.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
In fact, even her own DNA isn't on the shoes. So the fact that Adnan's isn't isn't significant. And we don't even know that she wore those shoes that day. They were found in the back of her car, not on her body in the burial site. So you can see, as Alice said, it's not just I mean, some branches of evidence you can basically throw out.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You know, we're basically at the point where we throw out forensic odontology, unless you think the West Memphis three are innocent, in which case you're all about it. But we're basically the place where we throw that out. Right. But touch DNA, we're not throwing it all out. We are saying it is weaker than other forms of DNA. It's weaker than blood. It's certainly weaker than like sperm DNA.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
That would be pretty significant, right? But you have to think of the context and you have to place it in the context of the overall case. And when you do that, I think you can see pretty easily why there's a big distinction between those two locations of DNA.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Yeah, great question. Thanks for that question. And we're always happy to answer questions. If you leave a five-star review, we will answer the question. You know, recently, Alice, we got one that was like, do we have like an unrequited love for each other or something? I don't know if you saw that one.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I mean, at this point, we got seven kids between us. I mean, and none of them are related.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Exactly. All right. Well, thank you all for joining us. Let us know what you think. And we will be back next week and many, many weeks afterwards with more on the West Memphis Three. But until then, I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And we are the Frosty News. You do look great tonight, by the way.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Are you good or do you need to? We'll see. See, I think it's these things that make the podcast all the sweeter. Because we can always listen. Years later, decades later, little Allison will listen to this podcast and hear himself crying in the background.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And it's interesting because other people, kids from the school, kids from the area would describe how charismatic he was, which I think goes along with what you're saying, that he really kind of had a mesmerizing presence. And the people who liked him and the people who hung out with him were very influenced by him.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And, you know, one thing, as I've said, we're going to bust a lot of myths in this case, wherever we end up. One of the myths is just, you know, Damien was just he was like all of us. Like, you know, I used to wear black and listen to Metallica when I was in high school. I love Metallica. I listened to the black album so much on my Sony Discman that like I like burned it up like it would skip.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
There were only a few songs I could listen to, which is fine because I liked them all. And so because of that and because there were so many of us who were like that, who played Dungeons and Dragons or whatever. There was this big connection from Paradise Lost.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So many people, and you hear this in the coverage of this case, so many people identify with the myth of Damien Echols, that that's all he was. And people picked on him because of that. And they attacked him because of the music he liked and everything else. And that these juvenile corrections officers were just, you know, these...
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
crazy, satanic, panic obsessed morons who followed this kid around and tortured him and just made his life hell. When you actually look at this case, you realize none of that is true. Damien Echols, the juvenile officers who were watching Damien Echols and keeping him on the radar were doing their absolute jobs. They were in many ways trying to help him.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
They are the ones getting him into these psychiatric facilities because they're worried he is going to hurt someone. And their focus on him is for that reason.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And given the fact that they know about some of these violent outbursts, they know about how he's viewed, even if it's irrational and even if it's a sort of round up the usual suspects type thing, there's a reason that he's one of the first people on their radar in the neighborhood, in the area. He is someone that you could imagine doing something like that.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And typically that's the way police investigations proceed is with people who you can imagine. It's the same reason they also looked at all the sex offenders. in the area, the same type of thing. So this, and we're going to go into more detail on this later on, but this should really disabuse you of the notion that it was just because he wore black, like Johnny Cash.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You see his family in Paradise Lost selling this lie, even though they said to the mental health people that they were afraid of Damien. They talked about how they were worried about his interest in the occult. Then when they get in front of the cameras on Paradise Lost, oh no, he just likes wearing black. Everybody likes wearing black. Right.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You get that whole thing because they are selling that story because they're trying to save his life. And I get it. Right. I'm not criticizing them. It's just you as a viewer have been misled, whether intentionally or not.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And I'm going to go out on a limb that if all you ever did was watch Paradise Lost, read The Devil's Knot, listen to some of the coverage on various podcasts, you probably have not heard these details. You might have heard that Damien had mental health issues. You might have heard that he struggled mentally.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
with various mental problems, but you've probably never heard this much detail about what was going on with Damien. Okay, so that was January 19th. So this continues, and Damien's in this facility for a while. He's having these treatment sessions, and he's talking to these psychologists. On January 25th, 1993, during one treatment session, he talks about rituals.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we continue the timeline in the West Memphis 3 case. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my timely co-host.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
He talks about drinking blood and his increased interest in demonology. And once again, this is not what Jerry Driver is saying as he's driving around West Memphis under the full moon. This is what the doctors who he's talking to are writing down. He says that drinking the blood of others gives him power. And when he does it, it, quote, makes him feel like a god.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
He says that the spirit of a woman murdered by her boyfriend entered his body about a year before, and it has decided to become a part of him. And it gives him sort of knowledge that others would not have. Now, he says he cannot see the spirit, but he can hear it, which is usually a bad sign when you're hearing voices. But nevertheless, he also reports speaking with demons and other spirits.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So this is the kind of thing he is telling his doctors four months before this murder is going to happen.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Yeah. And look, you might be thinking, sure, this didn't come in a trial. And it did not because this is all very prejudicial stuff. Right. I mean, if a jury hears this, they are going to be inclined to think this is exactly the kind of person who would kill someone. That's the whole purpose of Rule 403, Rule 404, all of that. Right. So, you know, and we're not trying to bias you against Damien.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But I do think it's important to know the reality of the situation going in, because typically when this case is discussed, you are not given the reality. You are given a fantasy about the situation. There are aspects of the fantasy that are true. We're going to talk about the satanic panic, and we're going to talk about some of the stuff that was going on in West Memphis.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But Damien and his words, they're not just, I like Satan. It's stuff like, drinking blood gives me power, and when I get angry, it builds up inside until I explode, and then I hurt people. That is troubling. You might be wondering, how do we have this? And once again, this is kind of funny.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So you remember in the Adnan Syed case, some of the worst facts that we talked about for Adnan Syed came from the defense file. And the fact that that was released was such a huge blow to especially the false story that was put forward about him in serial. Well, in this case, it's even more egregious.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So Ron Lacks, who was a private investigator who we're going to talk about more as we go on, as part of his work for the defense, he got all this together. They brought all of this together and presented it to the court as mitigation in his sentencing phase.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So this was presented to the jury, not when they convicted him, but when they're trying to decide whether or not to give him the death penalty. This became what is known sort of infamously as Exhibit 500. It's available on Callahan, and you can read all of this. And this was just incredible on goal by the defense, because clearly...
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
When they either didn't read it very thoroughly or didn't think the defense would read it very thoroughly or didn't think the prosecution would read it very thoroughly. But it didn't take long for the prosecution to read exactly the things I was just reading to you. The whole Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, drinking blood, exploding, direct that to the jury.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And it's not surprising, given that they heard that, that they did return with a death sentence for Echols.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, a 19-year-old disappears while talking to his parents on the phone. What happened to Brandon Swanson? Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and as most of you know, Alice is still recovering from having her beautiful baby. I was able to see him recently and he is doing great, but
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And that's backed up by the fact that he didn't call him first, right? Like he, he really wanted a friend to come get him. And he spent quite a bit of time trying to get a friend to come help him because he doesn't want his parents to know he's been out drinking and driving. I mean, I think that's pretty clear what happened, but when, you know,
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Unless you're mad and then you can. Okay. Yeah. If you say something, I'm completely disagreeable. Like Alison.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Worst comes to worst, when you're at the end of your rope, he's going to call his parents. He's going to take whatever hit he has to take. So his parents know they need help and they are going to come get him. And they drive to where Brandon is supposed to be. But there's no Brandon. His mom is calling him. They're trying to figure it out. And Brandon's getting frustrated.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
His mom comes up with the idea of, I'm going to flash my lights. Now, remember, middle of the night. middle of nowhere, essentially in Minnesota. They are, you know, he is taking the back roads for a reason to avoid the main highway. There's not gonna be a lot of lights. This is very flat land.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
You would expect if somebody's flashing their lights in this circumstance, even if they're a good ways away, even if his parents have come to the wrong place, Brandon should be able to see them and they should be able to see Brandon. So he's flashing his lights. They're flashing their lights, but none of them can see each other.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Brandon, he's getting more and more frustrated to the point that he eventually even hangs up on his mother. She calls him back and he says, look, I can't see you. I can't see you flashing your lights, but I see lights off in the distance. That must be Lind that I'm seeing. So I'm going to walk towards those lights and eventually I'll get to town.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And when I do, you can meet me in the parking lot of a local bar, like the Lind Tavern.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
you can meet me there and we'll get my car later this seems like a great idea right so he starts walking he's walking through these fields he actually thinks he's on a golf course at this time and you got to remember this area in case we didn't describe it well enough this is farmland so you have these towns but you have these fields you have farmland they are mostly fallow at this time this is sort of in between when you would be planning when you would be harvesting so
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
You know, it's not like he's walking through.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah, I mean, basically the fields are empty. So he's not walking through like six foot high corn or anything, right?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He's just he's just seeing an empty field to the point that even though it will turn out he is very much in a field, most likely an agricultural field. He thinks he's on a golf course. That's where he thinks he is. So he has no idea where he is, but he thinks he's walking across this golf course and thinks he's heading towards land this whole time that he is walking towards land.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He is on the phone with his father. He's talking to his father, Brian.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
and he sort of explains to him what he's doing as he's going he's going to cut through some fields initially he's walking down a road parallel to what he thinks is the golf course and he basically says hey i'm going to cut through these fields because the lights the straight line to the lights is through the field so he's going to do that so he's walking you know he's crossing gravel roads he sees a couple fence lines he hears running water he is on the phone on the phone with his father
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
walking for about 47 minutes, which once we start trying to figure out where he went, you can imagine how this is problematic. Even on foot, you can go a long way in 47 minutes. So then the moment happens, which has made this case famous. He is walking and all of a sudden he yells, oh shit. And the call is disconnected.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
She is very impressive. We're very impressed with her. You know, she does, at this point, she has four children and four podcasts. So I'm not, and a lot, and a job. She has a full-time job too.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
His father said when he said this, it sounded like Brandon may have slipped and fell.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
at this point his father is trying to call him back calls him over and over again but brandon never picks up now the phone rings each time it was called and in fact it would continue to ring until around the next day when the calls would start going straight to voicemail and sort of the thought is that is when the phone whatever had happened to the phone at that point the phone dies completely but brandon never tries
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
to call his parents back. He never answers the phone. And in fact, he has not had any communication with his parents since.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So I don't know exactly how she does that, but somehow she pulls it off. But we have really interesting case for you guys. But first, before we get into that. Allie, I want to thank you so much for joining the show. We've been trying to work something out for a while. I've been watching you since Days of Our Lives, back when I would watch with my mom and dad.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Right. And so as Allie's saying, once again, you have this triangle, right? And the hypotenuse, that was great. I just called it the longest one, but that works too. So we're on the hypotenuse. So just imagine you got the longest stretch between Camby and Marshall. Now, Brandon... He'd been driving for a while by the time he got hung up, and he thought he had made it much further than he had.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He thinks he's all the way down near Lind. Now, remember, Lind is south of Marshall. He's trying to get to Marshall. Lind is south of Marshall. He thinks that basically he has worked his way down these back roads so far that he's now pretty close to home.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He's pretty close to home, but because he knows he's going the back roads and he knows that Marshall's on the main road, he figures what he's seeing is land, which is south of Marshall, not Marshall. That's where he thinks he is. But he hasn't made it anywhere near as far as he thought he had. Porter isn't that far at all from Canby.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
If you were on the Highway 68, you would basically Porter's the first town you run into when you're coming from Canby. It's probably ten minutes. from Canby. Taunton is just a little bit further down from Porter. So he's been driving around this whole time, and it seems like he's basically been going in circles. And Lind, as we've said several times, is south of Marshall.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It is south of Highway 68. Taunton, Porter, and where his car is, north of Highway 68.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I think you mentioned True Crime Garage earlier, and one of the guys on True Crime Garage made a very simple but a very true point. If the wheels in your car that spin when you push the gas down are not on the ground, your car is not going to move. No matter how good your car is, it's not going to move. And you're right. There's no damage to this car. There's no reason it couldn't go.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I mean, simply when he's making this turn and you can imagine how lost he must feel at this point because he's been driving for so long on these back roads expecting to reach home and he's not there. So he's trying to turn around. I can imagine he's frustrated. You remember he got frustrated with his mom.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So you have to give a shout out to my mom and dad. That's one thing.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He probably, you know, went a little too far one way or a little too fast the other way and he gets hung up like this and there's just nothing he can do.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
in Alabama and we have all these coal mines. And so we have some like, it's like the foothills of Appalachia. So there's some cool sort of places up in the hills or whatever. And there was this one place called like Wolf Creek and Wolf Creek was cool because It does sound cool, right? And if you got up there, you could look out and you could see the city that I'm from.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It's not really much of a city, a town. So you're up there, you can see the town and it's supposed to be really pretty and all that stuff. And I wanted to go there. So one day a friend of mine and I, we get directions and much like this circumstance, I mean, this was well before 2008, but we didn't have any kind of satellite navigation, right? We're just going based on what we're told.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So we get our directions. We're driving into Carbon Hill, Alabama, and we take all the turns we're supposed to take. And we pass a little restaurant you're supposed to pass. And it's supposed to be the turn right after that. And we get to that turn and I stop and we look down this road and it's starting to get dark. And this road is like this gravel. It looks like a mining road. Right.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And we're like. You're like, that can't be. Yeah, I know. I was like, hey, should we do this? But being stupid, we're like, nah, it'd be fine. So we turned down this road. And this road, it's gravel. It's rough. It's getting darker and darker. The road is getting more and more narrow. And I'm getting more and more frightened.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Like, you know, I remember the moment where I turned off the radio, which if you're ever driving down the road and you turn off the radio, that's when you know it's serious, right? Because you're going to focus. Can't even have the music on.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Exactly. The first episode, I remember you were in, I feel like you were baking something. I mean, this had to be like 1993. No, no.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And my friends like, and there are ditches on both sides. And my friends like, should we turn around? And I said, I am not turning around. I am just going to keep going. I'm going to stay on this road until we get out of here. So we drive. It felt like.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
we were driving forever never found the wolf creek place or whatever we just keep driving we go into this massive like railroad bridge i'm like where in the world are we and then finally this road comes out on a main road now we have no idea where we are we're like at least it's a main road so we turn down the main road and stop at a gas station and we go to the gas station and
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
and asked the guy how to get back to the town where we're from. And the guy's like, I don't know where that is. We had gotten so lost and just so completely down the road that we were in a place where the guy wasn't even familiar with it. So he had to get out a map and we had to look and figure it out. And I feel like that's where he was. I would never have thought we were that far away.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
You know, I'd have just assumed we must be close, but we weren't. And I feel like when you're lost like this, Especially at night. At night, exactly.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I do want to say one thing about the police. You know, this is, as you noted, just another example. And we see this so often. The worst possible advice you can give somebody when there's a missing person is wait. Now, if if this were just a circumstance where they called the police and said, hey, you know, my college age son, I haven't heard from him in a few hours.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Do you mind looking for him? OK, now I can understand the police saying, why don't you give us some time? Let us know if he ever calls back and then we'll do something. But if you told them what actually happened, it is hard for me to believe that any police officer would think he probably is just doing something that he doesn't want his parents to know about.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Clearly, something has gone wrong here. And one thing that happens is the parents do the right thing, which is the thing we always tell people to do. If you ever call the police and you get this answer, the right thing to do is to hang up And then call again and call another police officer.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And they actually were able to get in touch with the sheriff, Lincoln County Sheriff Jack Vizecchi, and tell him this story. And he gets the police basically moving immediately. So they didn't really end up losing too much time. But nevertheless, still terrible advice by the officer. And they probably did lose a little bit of time. Now, would it have mattered? Probably not.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So the police do start searching, but unfortunately, this is a search that will stretch for months. And over the months following Brandon's disappearance, it is a massive search. Volunteers, emergency personnel, law enforcement. They have people on foot. They have people in boats because there are several rivers around this area. They had dogs. Dogs.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Horseback, all-terrain vehicles, they're using everything they have. They're searching Lincoln, Leon, and Yellow Medicine counties and the bodies of water surrounding them, including the Yellow Medicine River, because what is the thing that one of the theories in any of these cases is always they fell in the water. There's always going to be a theory, and that is a theory in this case.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And in fact, that was the authority's initial position that Brandon probably fell into some water and drowned. But as you mentioned, dogs, dogs are involved in the search and search dogs were able to follow the scent that they had been given from Brandon. to one of these rivers, I believe the Yellow Medicine River, to the river's edge. But they didn't lose the scent.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
They actually went through the river and continued following this scent after the river. And this suggested to searchers that maybe Brandon did fall into the water.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
but he didn't drown he got out and he kept walking the problem here you have these search dogs you have cadaver dogs later on the cadaver dogs start picking up the scent of human remains and in fact this happened several times and it's in the area sort of north of porter that we talked about earlier near one of these bodies of water mud creek but no body has ever been found and in fact the scent
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It's kind of all over the place. And as we're going to see later on, one of the problems with this area is it's actually really difficult for dogs because you have these scent pools. And we've seen this before. You guys may remember the Jason Landry case and how the dogs kept hitting on various places to the point they're draining bodies of water looking for him and they can't find him.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And sometimes you just have these scent pools and they're not there telling you something is somewhere. but where that sin is actually coming from can be massive. And the problem is because of how far he walked and where he was, we're talking about 122 square mile search area. This is a massive area to search.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah, I mean, I think it probably was a policy a long time ago, and it's one of those that sort of hung around for a while. And it is certainly the case that an adult can decide to disappear if they want to. And it is also true that police officers have limited I mean, you know, well, living with one limited resources and a tough job, right?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
That wasn't really a requirement then. I think the hope is that you pass the law and officers will be trained on this law.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And they're going to know. I mean, if that 24-hour thing was still hanging around, it should be flushed out by a law like this. Yes.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I think that's a good point. the bare minimum would be have dispatch tell people to be on the lookout all the officers who are just out doing their job be on the lookout for this person seems like they might be missing if you see anything call back in the bare minimum should have been that and i think it was definitely a mistake i hope it didn't have a huge effect.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I'll say this, Alice and I have the opportunity to speak to law enforcement all the time. And we use the cases that we cover in our trainings. And this is always a point we make to them. We use cases like this one and some of the others that we talked about, my Therese Richardson, you know, and we always say, don't do this. You know, there is a temptation to do this. Take it seriously. Listen.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I mean, listening is the most important thing. Someone calls in and says their 19 year old son is missing. Don't stop there. Don't shut off your brain then and say, Oh, 10 year old. Yeah, sure. He's out drinking, you know, listen to the rest of what they say, because what they had to say made it very clear. He wasn't just out drinking. He wasn't out with friends. You know, he hadn't met a girl.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
This was a real issue and they should have taken it seriously.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Absolutely. So just briefly, I want to talk again about the timeline. Recap. Recap. There you go. We're going to recap the timeline. Let me keep it brief, though, because we've spent a lot of time going over this. But just to give you an idea of how much time is passing here. Remember, you know, he's leaving this party.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He's been he's gone to several parties, but he's leaving the last party at probably, you know, not. Not later than midnight he has left and he started driving. And this is a drive that if he had taken highway 68, it's going to take him 35 minutes at the most. So the time period we're really talking about here is about 1230, which is when we think around then could have been a little later.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He gets stuck in this ditch to 310 a.m. And that's the oh shit moment. We'll call it. So let's assume be charitable that he got stuck in the ditch at one. He doesn't call his parents there for a good bit of time because he's trying to find his friends. He's trying to figure something out. He's starting to walk around.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
2.17 AM is when he's having this call with his mom where he's becoming impatient and he's hanging up on her. She's called him back. And this is when he says, I'm going to do this walk. I'm going to walk to Lynn. So it's 2.17 in the morning at this point. This is important for a couple of reasons.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
As we've talked about, he may have been drinking, but at this point he hasn't been drinking for at least two hours. And so to the extent he is intoxicated, some of that should be working through his system. In any event, he says, meet me at the Linwood Tavern inland. I'm heading towards the lights. At 2.23 a.m.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
is when he starts this conversation with his father, a conversation that will last for 47 minutes. This is the phone call that ends with the oh shit moment.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I think that's absolutely right. And I think it's a great point because that is one thing people, some people say is look, he was probably just really drunk and there's no telling what he did. He probably just stumbled into the lake and drowned, right? Because he was so drunk. That's why I got his car hung up. And I think that's a mistake. And I think you're a hundred percent right now.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Look, as we've said before, family members always want to be as charitable to their family as they can be. But I think in this circumstance, if his father thought he was impaired, he would have said something. Doesn't mean he necessarily should have been driving, but I don't think he would stumble around drunk. And you're right.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I don't think he would have carried on this 47-minute phone call if he were. And I think this whole situation has probably... sobered him up a good bit anyway. He's on this phone call, he's walking on this gravel road, and at some point he makes, as you said, there is a cascade of bad decisions, and this is his latest bad decision.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He's going to leave the road and travel cross country because he thinks it will be quicker than following the road. As he's walking, he says that he encounters two fence lines, which I guess he crosses those fence lines and he can hear water nearby. And shortly after he mentions the water, that's when he exclaims, oh shit. And his father believes he hears him slipping and the phone goes dead.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
This is at 310 AM. And at this point, there is no further contact made even after repeated attempts and no trace of Brandon has been found from that moment.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
No, I agree. I agree. And I think you'll hear that sometimes in coverage of this where people will attempt to apply what we've learned about phones since then to this. Well, if it was ringing, it must have still been working or whatever. And I think you're right. I don't think we can say that for certain.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And that's another good point because we've been talking about how far he could have gotten in 47 minutes while he's on the phone. There is no reason to think he stopped moving at that point. I mean, I'm not going to say no reason. I mean, you could say you think this is the moment wherever whatever happened to him happened to him and he did stop moving. That's a possibility.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
But as possible is the phone wasn't working for whatever reason. Maybe he dropped it. Maybe he dropped it in water. Who knows what happened? And then he keeps moving and he may have walked for who knows how long after this, just expanding that search grid more and more.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Well, you're really good at it. I remember, I mean... You know, I don't know if this is, I don't know if it's a good thing. Exactly. I was going to say, like, you were so easy to hate. Like the, the, the wedding scene with Austin, like the one that all comes crashing down. I mean, that episode, man.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Right. No, absolutely. And I can't, you know, we talk about these cases a lot and the people who are left behind. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have been his father and been on that phone call when this happened. I mean, just a terrible, tragic situation.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. And as not someone, I mean, I am someone who without my glasses, I do not see very well. And I can't imagine leaving my glasses in my car. But one thing I've always wondered, if you're legally blind in one eye, what was his eyesight like? Oh, right.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. Was it good enough that he just didn't, for whatever reason, either because he was frustrated or he was angry or maybe he just had too much to drink or he just didn't think about it. He could see well enough that he didn't think, oh, I need to grab my glasses. But it is interesting that his glasses were in his car because it's already really difficult to navigate this situation. Yes.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I heard them mention that and I'm trying to nail that down. And I don't know if that's true or not. You know, I don't know if that's something we've heard reported. There are definitely reports of that. But I do think that's weird. I mean, I do think that's strange. I don't know. why you would do that. I don't know why in any circumstance, the door would be open.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Even if you imagine someone stole the car or whatever, and then got it hung up again. You know, that's the problem. You think somebody moved the car. Now look, one possibility is he didn't lock the doors and maybe somebody did come along later on and see a car and just open the doors and maybe steal something. Though there's no signs that anything was stolen either.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Maybe there wasn't anything of value in there.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Right. If that's true, then yeah, I think that's weird, but I'm just not a hundred percent sure on whether it's, whether it's true or not, but it's, it's if true. is strange, definitely a strange one. And another strange thing, we've already touched on this, is Lind. Why in the world would he think he was anywhere near Lind? Now, he would have known that he'd driven from Lind to get to Canby.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. That's the one where she slapped you. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He was very familiar with this area. And he would have known that it would have taken him longer to get to Lind than Marshall. And if he was north of the road, if he's north of Highway 68, he would get to Marshall before he got to Lind. So just working his way down the top of the hypotenuse, he would have gotten to Marshall, and in order to get to Lent, he would have had to have gone south.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So this would have meant that he believed that he was south of Highway 68, but he would have known if he crossed Highway 68, because Highway 68 is a very different road from everything else he's on. It is a two-lane major thoroughfare. It's the one he's trying to avoid. So it seems like his first mistake was he thought he was south of Highway 68. Like from the very beginning, he went wrong.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Like he thought he was on the south side, working his way down towards Lynn. And in fact, he was on the north side.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah, and I think that's what happened. I think he just was disoriented from the beginning and he was actually south, or he thought he was south of the road, but he was actually north of it. And I think that's when you start to see why he thought where he was. Like he had to believe that, right? He had to believe that he was south And then he was slowly making his way down.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And that might even explain why he didn't make it that far down the road. Because in his mind, he might be thinking, I need to go left, you know, instead of right. Because I'm south of the road, not north of the road. And he's basically just going in a circle right in that area because he doesn't make any progress, really. Right, for a long time.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. I think alcohol and being a 19 year old boy. You have a lot more, you're a lot more confident in what you're doing than maybe you should be. And I feel like he was there because you're right. There's never any indication of, well, maybe, I don't know, you know, I'm not sure where I am. None of that. Like he is convinced. Right. I am near. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Exactly. Yeah, they're like, what are you doing? Why can't you find me? I've told you exactly where I am. So we talked about this a little bit already, but it seems pretty obvious why he did not take Highway 68. He had been drinking, and even if he hadn't been drinking much, he was below 21. And in most states, any alcohol in your system when you're under 21 is a DUI. And in fact,
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It has been reported that he had a DUI before and he had just recently completed, I think, a year long probation based on that. So it seems like he is trying to avoid on the highway and he's sort of driving parallel. You know, you have these roads, they form squares. These are fields.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He's kind of doing a stair step thing, you know, drive straight for a little while, then go south, straight for a little while, then go south is what he's trying to do. But as we said, unfortunately, he's he's completely turned around and he's north of the road.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Now how you... I mean, I've explained, I've explained it, but I still don't understand it. Cause I don't really know how you mistake a field for a golf course. Like maybe you've never played golf before. Golf courses do have a pretty specific way.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So when the incident happens, when he gets hung up, he's driving down essentially a maintenance road. And this is the ultimate rural road. It is a road between two crop fields on either side. And the purpose of the road is obviously so like, you know, the water trucks and the, all the other vehicles that service the fields can travel down it, but it's not really meant to be a thoroughfare.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It's not the kind of place you should be driving down. At some point, he tries to turn south onto another gravel road. And it seems like what he's trying to do, as we said, is basically do maybe a three point turn and turn around because he realizes something's wrong. But then he goes into this ditch and it wasn't much of a ditch and it seems like he wasn't going very fast, but it didn't matter.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
His undamaged car gets hung up in such a way that the wheels are no longer making contact with the ground and he can't go backwards, he can't go forwards, he can't go anywhere. And this is about 1.15 when this happens and then this ordeal begins.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And he also is thinking somewhat rationally, right? Because he's thinking through this, like, well, I don't want to call my parents because I could get in trouble. So I'll call my friends first. I'm going to work towards that. Okay. I can't get my friends. I do need help. I'm going to call my parents.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I think that's important because one thing you always have to think about is no matter how minor the accident, did he hit his head and could that have caused some disorientation, but much like the intoxication, it does not seem like he's disoriented. He talks to his dad for almost an hour. No sign of that. I really do think he was in his right mind.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I don't think he was that drunk and I don't think he was injured. I think he just got into a really bad situation.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah, I mean, look, I think there are several possibilities here for what could have happened. And people speculate a lot. I mean, we can go ahead. I think we can go ahead and talk just briefly about the human involvement. Right. So it was a serial killer or it was a drug dealer that he owed a debt to.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Some people say that or he was killed by a farmer or he was killed by an illegal immigrant or a migrant worker. I think all of those are exceedingly unlikely, if for no other reason than where he was. He was in the middle of nowhere. No serial killer found him out on a maintenance road. No drug dealer tracked him down. out into the fields and killed him.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I don't think it's likely that there was a farmer or a migrant worker out there during a period when you don't really work in the fields, it's not really the time you'd be doing it, who was going to stumble upon him. I think when you talk about this, if you think about the things we know, it's much more likely that something more accidental happened to him. What about you?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I think you've put your finger on it. I mean, if you want to know my theory, look at what we know. We know he was walking through the middle of nowhere. We know he was on the phone. We know there was a moment where something happened which resulted in the phone turning off. And it was right after he said that he heard running water and you have the dogs going up to the water.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
What I think happened is when he said that it was very dark, you know, he might have walked right up to the edge. You know how it is on the rivers. You can have sort of bluffs is a strong word, but drop offs. And it's uneven. You know, some places go out further into the river than others. I think basically he slipped down there and I think he went into the water.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I think when he did, I think it basically knocked his phone out or even if it could still accept calls, it didn't ring and it wouldn't answer and it wouldn't send out calls.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It wouldn't help him. But at this point, now he's in the middle of nowhere and he's wet and it's cold. And I think he probably did keep walking. And the most likely thing that happened was 39 degrees when you are wet is enough to die from hypothermia.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And one of the things that happens when you die from hypothermia often there's something called terminal burrowing, which is when you basically try and your body is so desperate to get warm that you can be found. you know, underneath things like you burrow down into the ground, you cover yourself up with leaves, you're doing everything you can to warm up.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And if he were to do something like that in this area, it makes it much more difficult to find him. When you combine that with these scent pools that make it harder for the dogs to track him, the fact that this is such a large area, the search director has said there are places they have not searched that they would like to search because this is also all private property.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And some of the farmers are like, look, I don't want any part of this. We saw this, you mentioned Brandon Lawson. We saw exactly this same thing in the Brandon Lawson case. And finally, many years later, one of those landowners agreed to allow a search party to search his land.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And that is when they found remains that almost certainly are Brandon Lawson's and solve that case because they could finally search that area. I think that's what happened. I think he is still out there. I think this was a an accident, a terrible accident, a tragic accident, but an accident. And I think he's somewhere out there. Will he ever be found? That I don't know.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
But it would certainly be nice if they could conduct a similar kind of search that happened in the Brandon Lawson case. And that's what I would be hoping for.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I just want to know, 40%, according to the people who've worked this, 40% of that area that we talked about, those hundreds of square miles has not been searched. So there is a, you cannot say, people often say things like, oh, there's a massive search. They would have found him. You can't say that. They absolutely could have missed him in part of that search.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. Animal predation often will scatter the remains and it does make it more difficult in that. Look, it's now been 16 years. You would probably expect something like that to have happened.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. It is a very difficult search. You know, you might think of it as, oh, it's just flat land. They should still search it. No, for all the reasons you just mentioned, it is a very difficult search. And so it's not surprising. I mean, this is one of those cases that's so tragic because it's so senseless. I mean, there was just...
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It was little mistakes, these combinations of little mistakes that put him in this position and led to this tragedy. And I think the one good thing, the legislation that we talked about earlier, hopefully that will save someone's life down the road, but it is a, it is a tragedy, but it is one of those tragedies that has really intrigued people and remains quite a mystery.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I want to thank you for joining us. You did a great job. You should start your own True Crime podcast. Have you ever considered that?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So I do want to ask you, you know, we always like to lighten the mood a little bit after we talk about these tragic cases. So I'm going to ask you, it is Christmas. Those of you listening later, you'll be hearing this in January. Happy New Year, everybody. But it's almost Christmas. So I have to ask you two questions. Put you on the spot. I didn't tell you I was going to do this.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
First question, your favorite Christmas movie overall. And second question, your favorite Hallmark Christmas movie.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Well, there you go, guys. That's what we're watching. We watch these Christmas movies together on the gallery. And so we're going to have to check that one out next. I was saying, I was telling you earlier, we were going to watch, I think that one, but we were confused. We thought it didn't come out to the 21st, but apparently it's already out. So we messed that up guys.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I'm going to have to watch it. Maybe it was just because we wanted to watch it on demand. Maybe it wasn't available on demand.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So I do want to say- What's your favorite Christmas movie?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
My favorite Christmas movie. I don't know. I changed my answer every time somebody asked me this question, because like you said, it's whatever mood you're in at that time.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I'm a big fan of this movie called Snowman, which I've talked about a lot, which is about a snowman that comes to life. It's a romance. They totally ripped it off. Netflix totally ripped it off this year.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah, there's well, there's another one. I can't. Hot Frosty.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So I really like her. You know, I know you probably know her very well. She's great. I'm not accusing her of ripping off Snowmance. But Snowmance was the original Frosty comes to life love story. And it's great. And she should check it out.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
but the one thing i want to ask you because i have you here as a captive audience for like another 30 seconds i've said this to you before i just want to say it again dolly parton's uh christmas to remember song from her album with kenny rogers is basically a hallmark christmas movie in song they totally should make into a movie dolly should be in it it would be amazing that's right but they did make a dolly parton movie was it not it was not a christmas movie
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
no it was a christmas movie but it wasn't this christmas movie they should make they should base it on her own song i just think it would be okay yeah of course they should happen two people at christmas who were alone decide to go to tahoe because they're just gonna like you know ski or whatever and they meet each other and they fall in love et cetera et cetera so it's the perfect perfect recipe and i have such
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
do i do find that happens quite a bit so this is great it's not enough that i'm a character after you on my series you need more it's never enough for you brett never enough well thank you again for all your time for joining us can't wait to have you on again looking forward to all your movies that will be coming out soon i'm going to you know forego all the pitches for you guys to follow us and all that stuff you know all that stuff we're not going to keep her through that
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Well, in the Hannah Swenson series, recently your movies have featured a dashing, you know, sexy, intelligent, above all, humble prosecutor. You guys have to wonder, what was your inspiration?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
She could just podcast the whole time. Well, the next time The next time we'll do all three of us. She can join as well. Maybe we'll just bring all the families, all the kids, everything. We'll just make it a... Yeah, yeah.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
They're amazing. No, they're wonderful. And they watch all the recordings with us. And if you join Patreon, you can watch them too. Okay. So... I'm going to sign off, but I want you to help me because I don't have Alice here. So I'm going to need you.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Thank you all for joining us. Thank you so much to Allie for guest hosting today. She has been amazing. Can't wait to have her back on. Can't wait to have her on with Alice. We'll be back next week with a new show. But until then, I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And this is The Prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
then you know alice is doing great so oh good you know we actually have recorded a couple a couple things we're going to do for january but it's nice yeah i know it's nice of you to join so we can do this i'm very excited live hello everyone in the chat hi everyone and alice and sweeney so i don't really know i'm a little verklempt but that's okay um All right.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. Okay, guys, if I don't see you in the chat before Christmas, Merry Christmas and we'll see y'all soon.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It's the humility that's the most important part.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Well, we we've really enjoyed them and I know you've got, have another one coming out soon. So y'all look out for that probably January, February. Maybe we can watch it all together on the gallery, but okay. You've indulged me now for long enough. I know everybody could listen to Allie talk for the next hour or so, but you have been, so you are a huge true crime fan as well.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
In fact, you have played a podcaster before. Um, so, so this is like an old hat for you.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And now you're doing it for real. Yeah. So we do have a really interesting case today. And this is one of those cases. This is a classic true crime case. And this is one that a lot of people have covered. A lot of really great podcasts. True Crime Garage did really good stuff on this. Tons of YouTube videos. Just a case that grabs people and fascinates them. The disappearance of Brandon Swanson.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I want to thank you so much for joining me to help talk about this case, because it's a case that now is quite old. I mean.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It might have been 16 years ago, but it might as well have been yesterday. It's something they live with every day. And disappearances have that unique factor where there's never really any closure. I mean, a murder, as terrible as it is, and I don't want to say that there's anything good about murder, but you have a funeral, you say goodbye, you come to terms.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
But with a disappearance, it hangs over you. And this case has hung over the family of Brandon Swanson for a long time. So we wanted to cover this case and I appreciate you helping me out. And we're going to dive, I'm going to say right in, even though we've been talking for 10 minutes.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yes. Let the case begin. This case takes us all the way back to Tuesday, May 13th, 2008. Brandon, who was 19 at the time and from Marshall, Minnesota, he goes to a party with some friends. It's the end of sort of the school semester and he's celebrating, and this is something he's probably done a thousand times. It's in the nearby city of Linde.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
We're going to talk about how close Linde was to Marshall, but it is just down
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
the road swanson as i said he just finished his first year at minnesota west community and technical college and he wanted to unwind at around 10 30 he actually leaves this party so he's there for a little while he's having some drinks he's hanging out with some friends but he leaves the party to travel to another friend's house in the town of canby this this house is a little bit down the road.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And according to friends and Lind, Brandon did not appear intoxicated when he left, though, as we have talked about many times on the show, you have a bunch of people at a party. Everybody's drinking their ability to gauge how intoxicated someone is. Someone else is at a party, probably not great. So I don't know how much we can rely on that.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I think that's a really good point because I think one thing we can say is he wasn't, he wasn't so drunk that it did stand out. You know, I can think of being at a party when a friend hit a wall, right? Because he was, he'd had way too much to drink. I remember that.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I do. I do. And I feel like that adds to the podcast. It does. But I think we can say he wasn't like that because nobody remembers that. I think you're 100% right. But I don't think we can say that he wasn't intoxicated. That he, he maybe wasn't at a point where he shouldn't have been driving for instance, but he does, he leaves the party and he goes to can be while he's there.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
We know he had at least one shot of whiskey. And he leaves around midnight for his home in Marshall. Now this entire area is an area he is familiar with. And I will recommend that if you're listening to this podcast, when you get a chance, pull up a map, there'll be one on our website. If you're watching on YouTube.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
You may be seeing it right now, but look at a map because it's important to know sort of the geography here. And I'm going to attempt to describe it to you, but this is always difficult over, you know, radio. So Lind is about 10 minutes from Marshall. So he lives in Marshall and Lind is about 10 minutes south, south, west, right? Not far at all from where he lives.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So Canby is about 40 minutes from that. So he would have had to have driven 40 minutes away from Linde west and away from his home in Marshall to get to Canby. Now coming back from Canby to Marshall, you're essentially completing the third leg of this triangle. So you've gone south from Marshall to Linde, west from Linde over to Canby and then back east from Canby to Marshall.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Because of that, we have a very special guest today. I am joined by none other than friend of the podcast, huge true crime fan and noted star of the stage and screen, Alison Sweeney. Hello.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Make yourself a little triangle. And the longest leg of this triangle would be the trip from Canby to Marshall. So the trip from the last place he was where he took the shot back home in Marshall. This is about a 35 minute drive, but it's actually should be the easiest drive of them all because it is directly connected by Highway 68.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And if Brandon had just jumped on highway 68, which is a two lane highway, but a larger road, all of y'all have these highways. It's not an interstate, but it's a large highway, probably, you know, 55 mile per hour speed limit. It is a straight shot. He could have jumped on there and gone straight back to Marshall, but he did not do that.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And this is something we're going to come back to again and again, Brandon's belief about where he is versus where his car will eventually be found and what that tells us. And, you know, we're going to talk more about why he's on these back roads, but I think Ali has nailed it. He has been drinking.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He is avoiding the main road because the main road is where you would expect to have police officers. You might even have some stops to check people for DUIs. Remember, This is the end of school. The police are not stupid. They know what goes on at these times. This is precisely when they would be doing something like that.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Now you have, you've insisted I call you Allie, so I'll call you Allie. Yes.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I wasn't sure if I could even handle this, but that's why ProLawn is so amazing because it's not just fasting. It's fasting mimicking. It's actually giving you food to keep you going through those five days. So you don't feel sluggish. You don't feel slow. In fact, by the end of it, you will feel better than you have ever felt before. I experienced it and you will experience it too.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student-to-teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So, when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Holmes.com. We've done your homework.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I think one of the things the police were operating under is that these crimes were committed by more than one person, whether it was a cult or a gang or just a couple guys. I think they really thought three kids murdered. We need a couple people to do that.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I think now probably if you talk to the FBI, they would probably say, actually, no, you don't really need more than one person for some kids to control some kids. But I think this guy was a loner. I think they could not imagine him having an accomplice. And so I think they moved on from him. And this is my speculation. I think they moved on from him pretty quickly.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I think that's probably true of several of these people. People they looked at. So on May 13th, they look into Robert Andrus, who was a man from California who had been arrested in the area and had an active warrant from Florida for aggravated child abuse. But he was able to show that he'd been in California the day of the murders. So obviously he could not have committed them.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I didn't. I didn't. And I'm kind of sad about it. I mean, I saw various jokes online, but they're always fun. And I'm just going to say, if you were upset about today's post, then I'm sorry, you're not going to get an actual apology. That's just the way it is. So I'm sorry that you're upset, but I'm not sorry that we did it. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I think this is a good example of how just because somebody says they heard someone say something doesn't mean it necessarily happened. I mean, don't be offended by this, but this is the most exciting thing that happened in West Memphis in a long time. And everybody was talking about it. Everybody was involved in it. And everybody thought Damien was creepy and dangerous.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And so I think stories sort of naturally developed here. And like Alice said, I mean, this is... hearsay to hearsay to hearsay, the police basically go talk to Whitney Nix and she says, I never said that. So that breaks that chain. Doesn't seem like they ever talked to Jennifer Ashley, but I don't put a lot of stock in what Joni Brown says she heard at the skating rink.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And once again, the level to which they hung out is important because he harkened back to the Adnan Saad case. One of those questions is just how close was Jesse Miskelly to the other two? This is not a piece of evidence that directly connects them to the murder, but it puts all three of them together. So it's sort of one of those things that shapes the way the police are viewing the case.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So police will interview Robert Birch. Robert Birch is the one that the girls said they overheard saying that he and Damien had killed the boys. Birch told police that he'd heard that the Wrens had committed the crime. The Wrens are back. Though he also said that Jason Baldwin had told him that police thought he and Robert had committed the crime.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So he's saying, I heard the Wrens did it, but Jason Baldwin said the police think I did it with Jason Baldwin. Robert told police that the only friends of Jason's he knew were Jesse Miskelly and Charles Ashley, which is weird because everybody knew that Jason was friends with Damien Echols.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Charles Ashley had been with Miss Skelly the night of the murders up until the police were called at Stephanie Dollars. So he'd been running around with Jesse at that time. So at this point, David Wren is brought in. He is polygraphed and he passes. The police do take hair samples from David. He's an early suspect. But subsequent investigations would confirm David's alibi.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So the Wrens, who were the focus of a lot of speculation early on, start to fall away. Now, Robert himself, Robert Birch, he didn't really have an alibi for the night of the murders. He had gotten home from work at around 410 and couldn't really account for his time after that.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Okay, so then on May 14th, police interview Charles Carter, who is a known sex offender in the area, but he has an airtight alibi. On May 15th, so Jesse Miskelly. Now, why were the police interested in Jesse Miskelly? Well, Jesse interjects himself into this case fairly early on. And what's interesting about this is how does this cut?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Because one of the things we're going to get to the point at some point where Jesse is going to confess to this crime, he's going to go to the police. And it's been said the reason he went to the police in the first place was because he wanted some of the reward money. And that is somewhat bolstered by the story I'm about to tell you.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
On the other side, this could be Jesse Miskelly attempting to put blame on someone else. But in any event, on May 15th, David Sims, Dennis Carter and Jesse Miskelly tell the police that they saw a man chasing some boys across a railroad track. In the area of the Robin Hood woods. And they identify this person as Tracy Laxton. And so this is something the police are going to look into.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
That's how we catch you. We've been doing this podcast like six years. We've only done three April Fools.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But this is Jesse's first entry into this case is when he contacts the police on his own.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
When Joe pointed out the Tuesday fell on April 1st, it was like, we have to do something.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So one thing that's interesting about this, human memory and how flawed it is, especially over time. So I tried to get in touch with Brandy Wilson to see about this story and exactly what Damien said. I couldn't get in touch with Brandy Wilson, but I got in touch with her mom, who was in the room during the police discussion with Brandy about what happened.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And her mom has no recollection of this ever happening. And I was like, you don't remember going to the police station with your daughter to talk about whether or not she overheard a triple murderer describing the murder. And she's like, nope, don't remember it at all, which I thought was kind of fascinating. Brandy lives in South America, so not going to be getting in touch with her.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But nevertheless, yeah, her mom didn't remember it at all. This is what's crazy. Her mom remembers the day of the murder seeing two backpackers One of them with the largest orange backpack she ever saw walking down the interstate near the Robin Hood Hills. She remembers that to this day and remembers reporting that to the police, but does not remember this occurring with her daughter.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Well, so we have the transcribed interview from Brandy Wilson. I mean, as she said, she's 12 or 13, right? It is very, very, very hard to follow because she basically says that, you know, Jason's there, Domini's there, Damien's there, and she's sitting there and Damien's sitting next to her. And so she can, she can overhear what's said and, and,
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I was just listening and he said that he had something to do with these three boys and him and Jason just started giggling and laughing. And so the police are like, so what exactly did he say? And she never can get to it. And the police keep trying to bring her back to like, so what exactly did he say? And supposedly he was saying this to Domini and Jason. So I think you're probably right.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
We are still doing it. But hey, we are moving through the timeline. And as I said in the introduction, we are really getting into the meat of it. And what's going to be interesting at this point, we're really going to fly through some things. We're going to mention a whole bunch of names. They're actually not important.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So mom is in the room, even though she doesn't remember this. And the police officer says, did you tell your mother what you heard? And she says, yes. So, and it's Alan, by the way, detective Alan. So he now turns to the mom and this is what she says. Well, the girls did say something about it that night. that we came home, but they didn't, nothing, the kids or nothing like that.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Just like there was some weird boys there and a couple of other things went on, but no, I know we all really didn't talk about it or nothing until Mr. Bray called. So I think you pretty much put your finger on it.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
They're just people that the police looked at at various times, things that they were told about different people. And one thing I think this should impress upon you is the just amount of information that was dumped on the police. and it's really interesting to see because this happens in a lot of cases, but you often don't see it. Take the Adnan Saad case.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
It only gets worse. So Morgan says the trip to California had been planned for months. So that would, you know, that takes the sting out of they left a few days after the murders and that they had left on May 10th. And Holland would generally tell the same story. There's a problem with this.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Despite claiming to have planned the trip for months, Morgan did not tell his sister that they were coming because he, quote, wanted to surprise her. I mean, maybe. Right. Both men were given a polygraph by Marshall Gaines, who was a former polygrapher for the LAPD and former chairman of the California Association of Polygraph Examiners.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So you would think if there's anybody who's actually going to be able to do this, it'd be him. On all relevant questions, he found the two men to be deceptive. So you know how this goes. We do the initial interview. Talk to him for a little while. Do the polygraph. Tell him they failed. Now we bring him in for the second interview where we're really going to put the screws on.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And during the second interview of Morgan, he became more and more nervous. At one point when he was alone in the room, he sort of paced about it before placing a tissue over the cameras so he couldn't be seen. Shortly after this, he loses it. And this is how it's described in the report. Morgan became very hostile, saying, What do you want me to do? To lie to you? I'm going to lie.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I'm going to lie. I killed them and all that other bullshit. I don't know how he did it. Which I assume is talking about the other person. I quickly asked him, the officer who's writing the report, I quickly asked him, Who did it? He stated, I don't know. Whoever the F killed them. I then asked him, how do you think it happened? He said, I don't know.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
They were just 10 feet apart from each other in the swamp, in the ditch. I don't know how they killed them. Now, what's interesting about this is, remember, one of the boys is found a little bit a ways away, more than 10 feet from the other boys. So they were separated. But anyways, he keeps going. I then asked, how do you know they were found 10 feet apart?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Morgan responded, because it was in the newspaper. Now, it was not in the newspaper. That part was not in the newspaper. But anyways, it should be noted at this point in the interview, there was tissue over the video camera. Morgan was standing on a chair with both of his arms extended wall to wall in a very hostile, dominant position. Morgan said spontaneously, well, maybe I freaked out.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Then I blacked out and killed the three little boys and then F them up the ass or something. I asked, maybe you blacked out. Morgan said, maybe I could have. There's no telling what happened. Morgan then asked, do you have a hypnotist? I again stated, maybe you did black out. And then he responded, well, maybe. I asked him if it was possible he could have done it. He immediately responded, no.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Morgan added, I've never hurt anyone intentionally. I asked, maybe there's two sides to you. Morgan responded, maybe I'm Chris and Hyde. So, I mean, definitely suspicious.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I mean, there's no telling how many tips the police got, but you don't even really look at those because most of them, they don't even rise to the level of thinking about. But in this case, it is interesting to see sort of all these different tips that come in and what the police are dealing with, and I think that helps shade what ends up happening in this case.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Yeah, I mean, I'll say this. Jessica just mentioned this in the chat. One thing, it was almost like Chinese water torture where they drop the water on your head until it drives you crazy. And this is almost like that, but with the officer talking. So the interviewer just never stops talking. He never shuts up.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
There's no point where he sort of sits back and says, why don't you tell me what happened? He's just constantly asking questions. And I kind of feel like that he drives Morgan crazy. It's never is never ending stream of consciousness, as you were saying. So I don't know. It's hard to say, obviously, what exactly is going on here.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But this is not what one would call a coherent confession, even in a case where there are some weird confessions. This one is pretty out there.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So with that said, Alice, why don't we go ahead and start?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
You know, obviously these two are very interesting. They're going to come up again. At some point, the defense attorneys are actually going to want to bring them in and put them and call them to the trial to make them testify. Their attorneys indicated that if required to do that, they would plead the fifth.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And the one thing you can't do in a trial is you can't call someone that you know is going to plead the fifth. And, you know, you may think that's weird, but you just can't do that. So... They end up not being called.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Now, one of the reasons that the police eventually lost interest in them and the judge wasn't that interested in them either, is it turned out they had a pretty good alibi for that night, or at least they had an alibi. They were out of the area. They'd gone to some bars, I think in Memphis that night.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Like I said, we're going to talk about them a little bit later, but the police are very interested them initially. And then that is going to sort of wane as they continue with this investigation.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So police continue to look. May 18th, they look into Anthony Barnes, but they discover he has an airtight alibi. May 25th, they look into Charles Craig, but also quickly eliminate him as a suspect. On the 26th, it seems like they may have had a break in the case. William Jones tells the police that Damien got drunk and told him that he had killed the boys, cut them and molested them.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Damien told him that he, quote, had sex in the rear with them. The next day, Damien found William. So he gets drunk. He tells him this. Then the next day he finds him and tells him none of that was true. He was just drunk. So that sounds really good. And the police and the prosecution are looking forward to using William Jones in a coming trial and have him testify.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
It would turn out, I'll say this with a caveat, but it would turn out that Jones just really didn't like Damien and he had made the whole conversation up. Prosecutors would not discover this until Jesse Miskelly's trial, the very eve of trial, and it really upset them. I think Jones was supposed to be one of the last witnesses in that case. Now, here's the thing. I say that with a caveat.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Ron Lacks was a private investigator who worked for the defense. And if there is one person You know, you always hear about the police and the prosecutors, the strong-armoring witnesses, they're forcing them to say what they want them to say, to recant what they don't want them to say, etc., etc., right?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Ron Lacks was a world-class investigator, and he was very good at talking to witnesses and convincing them to admit they had been lying. So if you've seen Paradise Lost, that moment where it's after Miss Kelly's trial, the prosecution is talking to the family and they're telling them if Miss Kelly doesn't testify, this is what we have. And they go through and they mention the softball girls.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And one of the parents actually makes an offhand comment. I can't remember exactly what he says, but they haven't convinced them not to testify yet or something like that. And one of the prosecutors kind of laughs. Well, that's what he's talking about. So William Jones was one of the people that Ron Lacks talked to and convinced not to testify.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
That doesn't mean that William Jones isn't telling the truth here, that he didn't like Damien and he made it up. But this was something that started to kind of dog the prosecution at some point with people recanting on their stories after they spoke to Ron Lacks. So on May 27th, based on a tip, the police interview Jeffrey Looney.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
They ask him about a number of potential suspects, including Damien Echols. He is cleared after a polygraph and his alibi is confirmed. He also mentions Stephen Skaggs of his own volition when asked if he knows anyone crazy enough to do this. Police had previously received a tip about Skaggs, but they had cleared him at that time.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And this mention by Jeffrey Looney was not enough to reopen that investigation.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash prosecutors. The Prosecutors is sponsored by BetterHelp. Guys, mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to be made. 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey say they have avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
You may recall Vicki has those credit card fraud charges. That's why she's talking to the police. And her son was supposedly, and I think this is accurate, very good friends with the three boys who were murdered and was often with them. And Vicki will say that he wanted to go with them that day, but she wouldn't let him go. But Aaron will also tell a very lurid tale about what happened that day.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And the Aaron Hutchinson angle to this case, which we'll talk about more, is disturbing because he's basically another victim here. Now, he's a mental victim. The mental damage done to him by this is disturbing. pretty significant, but you can understand why the police had to question him based on what his mom saying, based on what he's saying, Vicki's doing this whole thing.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
She actually, she didn't have a library card. So one of the police officers gave her his, so she could go check out the books, these witchcraft books. So, um, And Damien will later say that this crazy lady, he didn't know why Jesse wanted him to talk to her. He didn't know why he was there. I buy all that, frankly.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I think this was probably a very strange interaction with Vicki, who, by the way, is a grown woman with a child who, for some reason, much like Damien, is hanging out with a much younger person, Jesse Miskelly. And she will continue to do that. He was her friend, she said. And she really helps put the nail in his coffin.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And, you know, Vicki, I mean, it's almost like Judas or something like she that night he stays with her the next day. He's going to be brought in for questioning on June 3rd. And so the police, you know, she said this to him about the whole Damon Echols thing. They also have Jesse making this statement about seeing the guy at the railroad track.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So at some point they're going to talk to him and they bring him in for questioning. They talk to his dad. His dad gives his approval because Jesse's under 18, all that jazz. So they process Jesse for the interview at 10 a.m. And so between 1030 and 11 a.m., he is read in waves his Miranda rights and his father gives permission for the police to question him.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So between 1030 and 1230, Jesse will take a polygraph. And we're going to go into a lot of detail about this entire incident. But right now, I'm just giving you sort of how it went. He takes a polygraph and Bill Durham, the officer administrating it, finds that he is deceptive on all relevant questions.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And if Wall's name is familiar to you, he is the witness who says he saw the kids going into Robin Hood Hills, I think at around seven o'clock. I forget right now, but he is the one with the latest entrance of the kids into the forest. And he is also someone the police looked at as a possible suspect.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
At some point between 1240 and 130, the reporting differs, Gitchell and Allen begin to question him. By 240, Jesse has implicated Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin in the murders. The recorded interview began then and concluded at 318 p.m. After this, the three will be arrested. Now, it's worth noting that the Innocence Project describes this as a 12-hour interrogation.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This appears to have originated with a hyperbolic statement from Jesse's father that no one ever bothered to check. The total interview doesn't even last that long, and only some subset of that interview is the interrogation itself. So he actually talks to him three or so hours. We're going to get into the exact length of time and how significant that is later when we talk about this in detail.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But this is... The moment Jesse Miskelly confesses. And after that, the police, they have what they need. Now the investigation is over. They know who did it and they're going to arrest all three of them. And from that point forward, the investigation is very much about continuing to gather evidence against who will become the West Memphis three, Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miskelly.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
On June 7th, Sherry Gilbert tells police that two days after the boys were found, her nephew, William Jones, who you may recall, told her that Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, and a third unknown person had killed the boys. I mean, pretty significant. But Jones, you may recall, will later tell police that he made up the story. And he will do this after a visit from Ron Lacks.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I have tried to find this guy because this is a guy I'd like to talk to. I've not been successful in finding him. William Jones, if you're listening, would really like to know exactly what happened here. Because if his story were true, I mean, you can see why the prosecution wanted to call him.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
You know, if he's saying Damien told me that he and two other people did this, one of whom was Jason Baldwin. That's a pretty significant thing. Two days after the murders, but he recants. He never has testified to this and sort of just disappears into the ether. All right, guys, we're going to stop for now. We are closing in on the end of the timeline. We might even get through it next episode.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And once we finish the timeline, then we're going to start diving into a lot of the details that we're glossing over at this point. Because we are glossing over a lot of stuff because we're trying to get through what happened. And we're six episodes in and still going. So there has to be some glossing. Don't worry. We're going to talk about all the things that you want to talk about.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
All the things you're screaming at your radio, we will discuss before we finish with this. Interested to hear what you think so far? Shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com. Add prosecutorspod for all your social media. The gallery's hopping, talking about this case. Join the conversation there. If you want the episodes early and ad-free, you can join Patreon.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
If you want to, you can even watch us record these episodes live. So take advantage of that if you are interested. Well, Alice, do you have time for a question or what? Let's do it.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Let's do it. Okay. One person wants us to run against Tommy Turbo. I don't know if you saw that.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
If we were married, you could be the first lady or whatever.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I'm always interested in the questions that folks like to ask. Okay, so this person would like to know how they want to know how we balance attempting to be popular and successful with controversy.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And connections to people who are controversial. That's what they want to know. That's my four meanies.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Oh, that's nice. Yeah, no, I mean, that's exactly right. I don't care what other people think. And no, I mean, I don't. Have we been successful? Yes, we've been very blessed. And this this has been more successful than I think either one of us could have imagined.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But one thing we've always been committed to is if it's successful, it will be because you wonderful people enjoy us talking about these cases. We're not going to seek popularity or more listeners by coming to a conclusion or by cutting out someone people don't like. That's not going to happen. And if that loses listeners, that's fine.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I mean, would we have more listeners if we said Adnan was innocent and that Karen Reid is a martyr?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I mean, look, there were people who loved our Adnan coverage and hated our coverage of the Bone Valley case. You know, they thought Leo Schofield was absolutely guilty and just couldn't believe that we would dare to suggest that he wasn't guilty. I mean, I just don't care. And then, you know, I'll give you one example because I see the Karen Reid people all the time.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
One person said they loved our podcast until the last episode on Karen Reid and they couldn't listen anymore. And what you're saying when you say that, what you're saying is you don't actually want us to tell you what we think. You want us to lie to you so that you'll be happy. I'm not going to do that. And then, like I said, that's always been our promise to you.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
We're going to tell you what we think the unvarnished truth, not for profit or popularity or anything. So for us, it is really easy. Like I said, to balance that because it's not a balance. We like who we like, you know, I don't care if you like the murder sheet or not. I like the murder sheet and we're going to keep talking about the murder sheet and they're going to keep being on our show.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
That's just the way it is. And you can either accept that or, Or you can move on. And either one's fine because it's your time too. And your time is super valuable. And you should only be doing something you enjoy. And so make those choices for yourself. But for us, it's the truth or nothing.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And look, I think Alice is the absolute truth and the proof's in the pudding. If you go back and listen to our earlier episodes, Alice was always great. But I think you've really come out of your shell from where you were in the beginning to where you are now. I mean, I think we both have, but you really have. I mean, you have really grown into this whole role.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Amen, Alice. Amen. This is why you're the best. There you go. Look, this has been fun. And I always enjoy doing this with you, Alice. I mean, this is great. Look, we were talking about this. Like when we were talking at the very beginning, it's April Fool's Day. We did not our annual, but every now and then we'll do a little April Fool's thing.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And like Alice was saying, like the number of people who are just joyless, sad people who cannot get any joy out of anything. It just makes me sad because we do this podcast because we enjoy it. We have a lot of fun doing this podcast. That's why we do it.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Look, this is I'm not even kidding about this. It's going to sound like I'm kidding about this. But given we both had some more kids, I actually think if we did a third podcast where we just did that, I think it might actually be kind of successful. But I will say once a week, you guys have to figure it out.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
that's the fun that's the fun I know that turtles don't have gills what are you talking about they don't so I learned so I actually looked this up today because I totally didn't know I'm still surprised by this so sea turtles have to go up for air Which just doesn't fit with the whole Finding Nemo thing.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Apparently, they can last on one breath for two hours if they're not deserting themselves.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This has been fun as always. We will be back next week with more on the West Memphis Three. Going to be saying that for a while yet. Thank you guys for sticking through it with us so far. Hope you're enjoying it. But until next week, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are the prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, trial is back in session in Canton, Massachusetts.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
It's the crime that shocked the nation. Seven adults, four teenagers, and a dog conspired to murder Boston police officer John O'Keefe and a famous girlfriend, Karen Reed, for the murder. Now Karen's life is on the line as we hold our breath. Will justice be done or will an innocent woman go to prison? Okay, you ready?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Okay, here we go. Actually, you know what? I can't do it. I hate that case so much. I hate it so much.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I am surprised that he is. I guess I'm not surprised. I just, I think it says something. I'm not sure what it says. Maybe it just says that the level of paranoia was so high in West Memphis at that time. But it's striking to me that you would hear that three eight-year-olds were brutally murdered and you would think,
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I wonder if it was my friend who I traded that knife for shirts with, you know, like that, that is not the first thing that would necessarily jump into my mind. I would just think, Oh, he must, he must've missed his shirts. But he's like, apparently thought that Jason was the kind of person who would use the knife to kill three, eight year olds.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Like I said, that may not mean anything, but as we have said before, Jason is always the person that most people are most skeptical of his involvement in the case. Because generally speaking, he's just not the kind of person, quote unquote, that would do this. But apparently this person who knew him thought there was at least a moment where he thought, I wonder if Jason's involved in this.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I think that's interesting. It's not like it has a ton of weight, but I do think it's interesting.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And just as an aside, this was not the knife. This knife definitely was not the knife involved in the case, but that's not really the point. So anyways.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And we are the Prosecutors. today on The Prosecutors. The investigation heats up in the case of the West Memphis Three. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my foolish co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I think this also is a testament to the shotgun approach. This investigation, whatever it is, is not organized. So it may be thorough in ways, but it's not organized. It doesn't feel like they are investigating the way you might expect. Typically, an investigation into a murder like this would start very close to the victims.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So the first thing you would do is eliminate all the family, and then you would move out. It's almost like concentric rings, right? So the family, then you would eliminate everyone. Friends of the family, friends of the kids, neighbors, people in the neighborhood. And then you would get to sort of your usual suspects like this. I mean, this is very much a usual suspect type person.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Not even not even seem like he's in Arkansas. And yet they're looking into him. It's very scattershot, much like the canvassing. The neighborhood was kind of scattershot, much like nailing down the alibis.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
was scattershot and nailing down the time when the kids went in the forest and i say all this because whenever we do this we're always accused of being you know we're so pro-police and everything because usually we disagree with the general attacks on the police probably not going to be much different in this case i think there's a lot of unfair attacks on the police in this case but that doesn't mean the police didn't mess up in a way that has made this case much more difficult
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I think the way they've messed up is really in much more bare bones, basic investigative tactics. It is not true, for instance, that they're only focused on Damien Echols and they're really trying to prove it's him. You can see that that's not true. They're devoting some effort to other people, but the way they're doing it is so just all over the place.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And it doesn't seem like they really have any kind of plan.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And you got the Wren brothers again, the Wren boys. I'm not sure they're brothers. I think they're brothers. And they've come up before as well. And this is the other thing. So I hate to keep coming back to this, but it's such a focus of people in this case. Damien Echols' name is mentioned very early on, and he eventually is charged with a crime.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So the argument, sort of the backwards looking argument is see Damien Echols tunnel vision. They mentioned him from the beginning and they charged him with a crime. So therefore they were always going to charge him. But there were other people whose names kept coming up in the beginning who were not eventually charged with anything. Michael and David Wren are two of them.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Murray Ferris and Chris Luttrell are some others. And you see these names come up again and again. And there are people to this day who think maybe some of these other people were involved. Also on May 12th, police investigate and eliminate a man named Kenneth Cagle. They also look into Stephen Brown, a man who had committed cruelty to children and murder in the past and who lived nearby.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So he's, you know, pretty good guy to look at, but he apparently had an airtight relationship.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
alibi and i gotta tell you this guy okay so they investigate richard cummings now richard cummings is a local man who lives in the mayfair apartments he lives with his mother and he is known to drill holes in the walls so that he can peep on other women in the apartment complex and the police are obviously interested in him for this reason. Also, when they talk to him, he seems very nervous.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
He also knows that the boys were beaten and that one of them had been castrated. Cummings works the night shift and said that he had woken up that day around 1 p.m. and he sort of wandered around the block. he acknowledged that he would sometimes walk his dog in the Robin Hood woods.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So he got a guy who's sort of a known sexual offender who was in the area at the time, who has information about the boys who walked around the area and knew the Robin Hood woods. So yeah, There's definitely some things that are interesting about this guy. So the police actually search his home and they find some interesting things.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
He had a number of knives, a club and pictures cut from magazines that he kept in a box in his bedroom. These were pictures of female models from clothing catalogs. He also had a number of newspaper articles regarding the murders. So to me, this is one of those guys that I really feel like the police should have done a deep dive on.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But for whatever reason, the police sort of eliminate him as a suspect fairly early on, say there's nothing connecting him to the murders. And they keep going. And maybe he has an alibi that I couldn't find. But I will say this about Richard Cummings and about this case in general.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
If at the end of the day, you don't think the West Memphis Three did this, then I think probably the people that are focused on the most probably didn't do it either. I think if the West Memphis Three didn't do it and you eventually found out who did. I think that person's name would be in these files. It would be someone the police looked at briefly and moved on from.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Richard Cummings is a pretty good alternative suspect. I don't see a lot written about him online or anything, but I don't really understand why he was not focused on Moore given his background.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
He didn't attempt to climb the mountain. He didn't go up the most treacherous part. He had turned around and gone back. And frankly, the trip was relatively easy to the point that the other three didn't even express concern about it. They were like, okay, that's fine. See you later. Go back to camp, right?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And yet he's managed in this, what should have been a relatively easy trip to lose his ice axe and to lose a crampon. And it wasn't just that. He was found on a gentle slope. So not the kind of area you would have expected him to have fallen, to have slid down the mountain, anything like that. His face was battered and it was frozen in a look of
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
of horror no one could really explain why this was but we're gonna see they went ahead they take him down the mountain they remove him from the mountain and they give him a chance to de-thaw because they're going to do an autopsy which they expect will reveal that he's died of some sort of pulmonary edema he's died of hypothermia something like that but they discover shocking details that they did not expect to find gruesome insights into his final moments
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
When they removed his hands, remember his hands were sort of frozen to his abdomen. He had sort of his hands across his abdomen. When they removed his hands, they discovered a cylindrical hole that was bloody and deep. As a matter of fact, it went basically all the way from his stomach to his back. Explaining this was shocking. No one knew what to think about this.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
The only thing anyone could come up with is that he had fallen on his axe and somehow died from the injury. The problem with that, there were several. Number one, this would have had to have been a very violent fall because this wasn't just a hole in his abdomen. It would have had to have cut through five layers of clothing and then all the way to his back.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Something, just an intense amount of force to make something like that happen. And his axe was missing. So where did this happen where he'd had this accident? It couldn't have been where he was because there was no indication he would even fall on that slope. And if he did, it wouldn't be this kind of fall. Where did the axe go? How did he end up with this massive wound to his stomach?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Well, it's Quechua, which is the Peruvian dialect. It's actually the Inca, ancient Inca dialect. So I went with that instead of Spanish. Even though we're in Argentina, I wanted to change it up a little bit because I do have a Machu Picchu story I'm going to tell later on. So I felt like it was appropriate. And it means beautiful lady.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And you're thinking about, what did we think happened here? What was sort of the story that we were told? He was probably cold. He probably succumbed to hypothermia, much like DIY Pass. He probably fell where he was walking. He just couldn't make it back to camp. And he died there of pulmonary edema combined with hypothermia. But now we have this wound.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So now you have to think that this person who was already having great difficulty moving to the point that he's now retreating back down the mountain, that he must have had a fall somewhere else. sustained this catastrophic injury, got up, kept walking to the campsite and then, you know, collapsed, I guess, from maybe bleeding. Maybe there he died of hypothermia.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Maybe there he died of pulmonary edema. One thing I would note, and I don't know how much you can take from this, because as Alice said, one thing that's always lurking in the back here is is the fact that if they're telling the truth, nobody's mind was really working by the time they saw his body. One person thought he was a dead soldier, for instance.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But nobody says like there was all this blood or we followed a trail of blood or anything like that. Nobody sees that. But the other thing, he did not die of pulmonary edema and he didn't die of blood loss. His autopsy revealed that his death was caused by cranial contusions. He had injuries to his skull and his brain, which is consistent with the fact that his face was all beaten up.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So I don't want to say he was beaten to death because that sort of begs the question, but some sort of injury to his head is eventually what killed him, sort of in combination with this massive wound to his abdomen.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I'm saying practice makes perfect. I'm like an ancient Incan. Just rolls off the tongue. OK, it does.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So a year passes, and now it's 1976. And they know the body's up there, but they can't get it. Eventually, a recovery team goes up. They find Janet's body. Removing her body is very difficult. She's essentially frozen to the mountain. In fact, as they're removing her, they have to essentially cut off one of her arms.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
They basically leave her, I think it's her left arm, on the mountain to get her body down. but they are able to bring her body down. It's been significantly mummified by the time and the cold air and everything else. They perform an autopsy, and once again, it is not pulmonary edema that killed her. Her cause of death was the same as Cooper's, cranial contusions.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Now, by this point, speculation is growing. These deaths look a lot closer to murder than an accident. The person who did the autopsies on both bodies is still alive and has talked about this a lot. And he said, look, I've seen lots of people who've died on the mountain. I mean, there's a cemetery at the bottom of the mountain. It's called the Climber Cemetery where Janet Johnson is buried.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
She's not the only one because people die on this mountain. You know, maybe not as frequently as other places, but it certainly happens. People have falls. Things like this happen. And he said he'd seen that. But when you see someone who falls and dies, you typically see injuries all over the body. They have broken bones.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You know, they have broken hands from reaching out to stop themselves or broken legs or broken ribs or broken collarbones, broken shoulders.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
lots of different broken bones from falling what they typically don't have are injuries contained to their face and in this case you have two people who supposedly had fatal falls falls to the extent that one you know had an ice axe go all the way through his body And enough injuries to his brain that's going to kill him.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You have Janet, who same thing, supposedly fell, had enough injuries to her skull and her brain that she died. Strangely has this rock that doesn't seem to belong that's sitting on her body. But nevertheless, no other broken bones. That's it.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You know, it's like I mean, I don't want to make light of this, but it's almost like something out of a cartoon where a cartoon character falls and they keep hitting their head as they're going down the mountain or whatever. I mean, it's almost like that. Like somehow both these people managed to have these catastrophic falls and the only damage is to their face.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
The other thing we mentioned the ice axe earlier or the wound. There was a problem with the wound. As we said earlier, it was cylindrical. The medical examiner had seen wounds before caused by ice axes. Never anything like this, but he'd seen it. And he said, because of the way an ice axe is made, the wounds are square. They're not cylindrical because the shape of the ice axe is square.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You know, I don't know what it is about these mountain mysteries, but they really get to me. I really like them. You know, Dial-Up Pass is one of my favorite stories of all time. Always liked doing these. And this one's pretty intense. And if you guys listened to the last episode, just to give you a quick reminder, we're back in 1973. We're in Argentina. We're climbing Aconcagua.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So when it goes in, it's going to make basically a square wound. It didn't match the wound that he had in his stomach, but something did. And that was an ice screw. So he had seen ice screw wounds before, which are, you know, screw into the side of the glacier to attach ropes and that sort of thing. Obviously has a pretty sharp point. At the end, those kinds of wounds would be circular.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
They would be cylindrical, just like the wound on Cooper. So he's seeing all these things and he's saying, look, none of this makes sense to me. I think that something is going on here. And he refers it over to the police. A judge gets involved. He's now looking into this. They're going to get to the bottom of this. You know, Janice Johnson, in the meantime, her body has been buried.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
in a cemetery near the trailhead. And just as they're opening this investigation and really getting into it, March 24th, 1976, the Argentine government collapses. This is a big deal. You know, this is one of those, you know, where thousands of people are going to be killed. There's all sorts of like, you know, fighting between various political parties. It collapses.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And now the last thing anybody's concerned with is what happened to these two Americans on this mountain. So what had begun to be an in-depth investigation that might have given us some answers completely comes to a halt.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And we're going up the Polish route, which has only been done four times before. And we've already had this tragedy that has befallen this group of hikers. You may remember the group started out kind of, you know, kind of large with a lot of different people with a lot of skills and abilities, the kind of group maybe you think will have no trouble climbing this mountain.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But one by one, they fell away until there were only four left.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
those four went up the mountain and only two came down which is not a great percentage for your survival rate but at this point we have two people who are dead on the mountain the rest of the group has returned and has actually left the country and the expectation is this is the kind of thing that happens on mountains we talked about this climbing a mountain is a very dangerous thing i'll go ahead and tell my story my peruvian story so i'm not much of a mountain climber i'm sure this is shocking
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
to everyone but i did go to peru it was the first time i'd ever really been at altitude so it was an interesting experience but we went to machu picchu which is one of the things you have to do and it's amazing it's beautiful it's glorious highly recommend it in just stunning place you can't there's so many things about the ancient world that you see them and you just think it must have been aliens because how in the world they were able to do this i don't know up on this mountain but if you've ever seen sort of the traditional picture of
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So do you have answers? Well, one thing I want to note, because you made a really good point. I think it's worth highlighting it. So Dyatlov Pass, the ultimate mystery.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So one thing about Dyatlov Pass that you pointed out is one reason to think that whatever happened isn't as mysterious as some people, some people, present company excluded, want to believe happened is that the people with the very worst injuries were all found together. So they were all found together in the snow cave. And there are some natural sort of reasons why that might have happened.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
They could have been on an ice bridge. It collapsed. The snow pours on top of them. There would have been a lot of snow. It would have been really heavy, crushing injuries, that kind of thing. Those people are all together. So there are explanations for that other than like a Yeti attacked them. Right. In this case, though.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You have to believe that two different people in two different places, neither of which seems to be the kind of place where you'd expect to have these kinds of injuries, suffered the exact same types of injuries that are unlike what you would expect to find in someone who died on a mountain, but are the kind of injuries that you might expect to find if someone was beaten to death.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And look, what do I think? I think the most likely outcome still is probably it was some really bizarre accident on the mountain because bizarre things happen on the mountain. But that's not actually what I think happened. And I don't know if it's just if it's the mountains or what, but they bring out the conspiracy theorist in me.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Like whenever we have these mountain cases, I find myself giving in to the conspiracies.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
machu picchu looking down over the abandoned city there is this mountain behind it and you can climb that mountain and it gives you a very different view and so my friend and i being young and stupid decided we were going to climb the mountain it was a beautiful day it was a cool day we'd gotten there early seemed like a great thing to do we climbed the mountain all the way to the top absolutely exhausted just dead by the time we get to the top but it's amazing well worth it right
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And look, I think that carries so much weight with me. It always does. It's one of the reasons in the Diallo Pass case that I'm so hesitant to believe the avalanche theory because every single person who's ever been to that mountain says it wasn't an avalanche. Everybody who's ever been to where they pitch their tent.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Nerds in an office at MIT playing with the frozen snow generator can come up with a theory about what happened. But the people who've actually been there are like, no, that's not what happened. And that means a lot to me. And in this case, it means a lot to me that these folks say this. I will tell you what I think happened.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And I hate to slander the dead because everybody involved in this case is dead. So, you know, take this with a lot of salt. But I think you had these people who went up there. They weren't very close to each other. It seems like they didn't even really like each other. And as they're climbing the mountain, it's getting worse and worse.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And we talked about in the first episode how going through difficulty can really bind people together. And that's true. But if you already have a group that has issues, difficulties can really exacerbate that. I think Janet Johnson was not well liked by the group. I think she was seen as a little bit of an outlier. She just wasn't what they were used to, right?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
For whatever reason, whether it's because she was a woman or because of her sexuality or because of how she approached it, there was already a distance there. And you get down to these four people. And they really want to reach the summit to the extent that the stories they're telling, even the stories they tell, do not paint them in a good light.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It paints them as people who are willing to send Cooper back on his own. Good luck. We're going to the summit. Janet gets separated and they just leave her there. They don't even try and find her. Even the way they're describing it's pretty bad. I think if this was a murder, I think the way it happened, I think Janet was killed first.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
i think something happened on the side of that mountain as they're approaching the summit when the hypoxia is intense hallucinations are bad people aren't thinking clearly i think she was slowing them down and they even said at one point that they looked back and she was gone right i think she was slowing them down she was ruining everything
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
they were worried about staying on the side of the mountain because their conditions, I think there was some sort of fight. I think probably somebody, that rock that was found in her body is what killed her. I think somebody used that rock to bash her face in basically and killed her. And I think Cooper wasn't involved in this. I think Cooper might've even been trying to stop this from happening.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And then when he couldn't stop it, he turns around and he's heading back to the camp and, And the expectation is if he makes it back to camp, he's going to tell everybody what happened. And I think he was murdered because of it. I think he was chased down. I think he was stabbed with an ice screw. I think one of the men who survived, remember, he has a black eye, right?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Because he fell down the mountain, too. He also doesn't have any broken bones. The only injury he has is a black eye. And mysteriously, everybody's missing their ice axes, right? Right. I think there was a struggle. I think he was killed. That's what I think happened. I think these people were murdered. I think this was a murder on the side of this mountain.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I think there's a lot of evidence that points to that. I don't think he could ever prove it. Certainly not now. Everyone involved is dead. Every single one of the Americans is dead. The guide is still alive. The people who performed the autopsy are still alive. Some of the people investigated are still alive. But none of the actual people involved are alive. They have all died at this point.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So you're never going to know exactly what happened. But to me, nothing about this, other than the fact it happened on a dangerous mountain, nothing about this says this was an accident. So I think it probably was a murder.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Well, as we're up there, you know, this is a beautiful day. All of a sudden, this storm starts to roll in while we're on top of this mountain. But because we're so high up, the storm doesn't come over us. It's like down over Machu Picchu. So we're standing there looking down at this storm and thinking, well, we'll just wait it out.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But then as we're watching it, the storm starts to slowly rise up the mountain. And this is like a thunderstorm, right? So we realize if we stay on the mountain, the storm is going to rise up and be above us. So we make the decision to go down the mountain, to climb down the mountain into the storm so that at least for the first half or so, we avoid the storm. Then we're in the storm.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And this this is me speculating, but I think it is strange that no one in the group seemed interested in helping to get Cooper down. You know, Janet Johnson's one thing. They didn't like her. Number one. Number two, they didn't know where she was. Right. Like their story was there was the fall. She got separated. No idea where she is.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
She could have fallen all the way down the mountain for all they knew. But they knew exactly where Cooper was. But rather than like try and work with the police to get a group to go up there and get the body, they're heading back to the United States the next day. And to me, that really rubs me the wrong way and makes me have a lot of questions about exactly what happened.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Then we'll get out of the storm. And when we got to where the storm was, it was one of the craziest experiences I've ever had. I'm kind of surprised we're not dead because like I said, it was a thunderstorm. So like lightning is striking below us. Right. And then we go into the clouds and it's like lightning is just constantly striking all over this place. I mean, it was terrifying.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
The Peronists were on the way out for a while. They were on their way out for a while. I doubt they were involved.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And look, it's a tragedy for everybody involved because maybe they would have investigated it and conclusively proven that it was an accident. And then this wouldn't be hanging over the people who survived. But I think there's a lot of questions about this case. You know, this is one I don't think you've probably seen covered many places.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Maybe there's a couple podcasts or whatever out there who've covered it, but definitely the New York Times. I mean, basically, we just ripped off that entire article. I mean, that article is amazing. It's fantastic.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
definitely should read it we'll link to it in the show notes just it's it's good i mean it is everything you wish journalism still was it's fantastic really interested to hear your thoughts on this shoot us an email prosecutorspod at gmail.com at prosecutors pod for all your social media you can find us on facebook in the gallery we're on x we're on tiktok such that it is, I guess it still is.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
By the time you hear this, if it still is, we're still on it. If not, it's re is. Yeah. We'll be on something else. We're not joining that communist, like little red book thing that you can forget about that, but we're in lots of places. You can find us, check us on Instagram. Other thing, if you've somehow missed it, we have the sub stack.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
We managed to make it to the bottom and I didn't die. But I guess if I'd been struck by lightning, maybe we would have been some bizarre story and nobody would have really understood how we ended up in that situation. But that's the kind of thing that can happen to you on a mountain. You just never know what's going to happen in a situation like that.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Now, most of the articles are free that we, we have started this prosecutor's university thing where we, People who subscribe will get articles on various parts of the law that are confusing. It's kind of like legal briefs, but in written form if you prefer that. So check that out.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
If you're a law student, really, it's an investment in your legal education. You should join. Okay, well, Alice, do you want to answer a question?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Okay, let's do it. Let's see. What's a good one? Okay, so Caj2189 says, So automatically anything that follows is going to be wrong. But in law dramas, I see where the opposing side springs unknown evidence in the hearing that decides if the case goes to trial. Is this accurate? If so, what are the stipulations of the pretrial trial hearing? Yeah. So what do you think about that?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And don't you want it to be that way? I mean, think about it. Do you want the winner to just be whoever has the best lawyer? Whichever lawyer is the most clever, the trickiest, or the one who's the most suave or whatever. I mean, is that really what you want? Or do you want it to basically be set up where the way it's supposed to work is really the lawyers are just sort of
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I mean, I don't want to say they don't matter because they obviously do, but they're presenting the evidence to the jury to the best of their ability and letting the jury decide. It's not like you don't want to win through tricks, and you can't. I mean, the rules of evidence just prevent that. And it's one reason, and we talk about this, it's really important to respect the rules of evidence.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And I feel like these people, they definitely experience that no matter what the final answer to this mystery is.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You know, I think there is a big tendency and we've seen this in a lot of cases to think that like the rules of evidence are almost like a problem. You know, the rules of evidence stand in the way of truth. If it weren't for the rules of evidence, you know, defense attorneys could just present anything they wanted and the jury could decide. Right. And. And no, that's not how the system is set up.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It really is supposed to be set up where all the relevant evidence comes in, the stuff that isn't going to prejudice you or make you decide based on something other than what the evidence is, and then you want the jury to decide. So yeah, the gotcha moments are few and far between. It really is... much more evidence based and law based than you might think.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You know, you think about like the Brian Coburger case, it's just going on right now. They just had what you would believe if you followed the media was this dramatic, you know, the defense had filed this motion to suppress the DNA evidence and to throw out the case and dismiss the whole thing. And, you know, this quadruple murder case hangs in the balance.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And we didn't even cover it because we knew exactly what was going to happen, which is this is a typical suppression hearing where the defense makes a pretty outlandish claim that's going to be denied. They had the hearing. People watched it. And what happened? It looked like the defense attorney, like if you watched it, you thought, man, this defense attorney is not very good.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But that's not what it was. It was that the law was entirely against her. So, of course, she looked bad because it's not about her and her abilities. It's not like oratory. If she can channel like some Mark Antony or something, Cicero, suddenly she's going to win by acclamation. That's not how it works. She didn't have the law on her side.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
In fact, the law was completely against her and she was always going to lose and she's going to lose because that's how it really works. And you see that in a lot of these cases, no matter how dramatic people want to make it seem, a lot of times there's a reason we're pretty good at predicting the outcome of these cases because the law is pretty clear.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Exactly. It's meant to be predictable. It shouldn't be shocking.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And I'll tell our lawyers this all the time. I mean, they'll come to me with something either they feel very passionately about or some novel argument they want to try or something along those lines. And I'll often tell them, if you feel passionately about it, you go for it. I will stand behind you. I will do the very best I can. And then we're going to lose. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
and then we're gonna lose so just be prepared for that part where we lose you know and usually they're like okay and we figure something out right like we drop that argument and maybe drop that count sometimes you know or concede something because we know we're gonna lose and that really is good lawyers are as good at telling their clients no that's never gonna work as they are saying you hired me that's what you want to do in fact that's what bad lawyers do
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
If a lawyer tells you no, it doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad lawyer. Okay. Well, look, this has been a lot of fun. I've really enjoyed this case. I hope you've enjoyed it as well. We look forward to your thoughts. We'll be back next week with something a little bit more traditionally true crime. Well, you know, we like to throw these mysteries in every now and then.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And we are the prosecutors. I'm going to go ahead and go Rob, unless you have something super secret you want to discuss.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Let's start marking where we... I think they left. Oh, you marked it. You're so good.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And I think that is definitely the question we're going to want to answer. So let's go back. Let's travel away from Peru into Argentina and reveal the rest of the story because there's some twists and turns yet to come. So it's February 13th, 1973, and the climbers have now returned back to the United States.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Go, go, go. As a matter of fact. I'm sorry. Your haircut looks fantastic. Fine. Fine, Alice. Alice is sick of me. She's ready to get this show on the road. No. Here we go.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And pretty much immediately after they returned, the president of the Mazamas Climbing Club, of which many of the climbers were a member, called for a secret meeting. between the club leadership and the surviving members of the expedition. Now, whenever you're having a secret meeting, it's never going to look good.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
The purpose of the meeting apparently was to find out exactly what happened during the expedition with the presumed outcome of, "...dispelling of certain suspicions, uncertainties, rumors, whatever, which may have come to your attention and have been amplified by the confused communications during the expedition and by conflicting or incomplete newspaper reports."
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
The meeting occurred at Defoe's law office. Now, look, this is immediately rather suspicious to me because, remember, Defoe, you know, he is a lawyer. He's from Portland, Oregon, and he is the one who has sort of organized this whole thing. So he was the guy. He was the guy who was collecting the money. He was the guy who planned the trip.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
He's the guy who decided to add Janet Johnson to the group in some ways. He might be someone who bears a little responsibility for it, even if as just the leader. But this notion of all the surviving people coming together in a secret meeting to sort of hash out their story is what it sounds like to me. Certainly cast some suspicion on the proceedings.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Well, I mean, I think the most charitable explanation would be, this is a group of people who are going to climb more mountains. This is a terrible tragedy. What happened? Let's learn from it. I guess that would be the most charitable explanation.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But given sort of the mystery of what happened, and the immediate suspicion that something strange had happened, the involvement of the police in Argentina, there's a really sort of interesting legal issue here, too. Because... You know, these are Americans, but everything happened in Argentina.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And we are the prosecutors. today on The Prosecutors. We finish our look at the Aconcagua mystery. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my sumac sipas co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So it's not clear that like the local police, even though an American is dead, would have any real jurisdiction to investigate this crime. Ordinarily, something would have had to have happened in Argentina. Washington or Portland in Oregon in the United States that is tied to the murder. So, for instance, imagine that someone decided they were going to kill Janet Johnson on the mountain.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
They planned it in Oregon. They then flew to Argentina and committed the crime. That action in Oregon would be enough that you could charge that.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Oregon but if you don't have that you're gonna run into problems some of you are aware and I forget the the name but it was a two people they got married they flew to Australia they went scuba diving the newlywed wife dies she drowns the husband was an experienced scuba diver and their witnesses who indicated that they believed he had tampered with her respirator so he killed her and
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And so there was an attempt in the United States to prosecute him, and that was eventually dismissed because of this lack of any proof that anything happened in the United States as part of planning this crime. So I think they're in sort of an interesting place. And you would think Defoe, who is the lawyer, would know this. And so you wonder if part of this meeting...
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It's him explaining to them, hey, as long as we keep our stories together, there's really nothing that can happen to us here. Unless we go back to Argentina, there's really nothing that can happen. So let's get our story straight. And it seems like that's exactly what they did. On February 15th, which is two days after the meeting, Defoe's secretary, types up a three-page summary.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And that would become the official story of the surviving climbers. Not only do they get together and get their story straight, they actually type it out. So they have a story that is their story. It's their timeline. It lays out exactly what happens. And it speculates that Johnson and Cooper probably died of pulmonary edema because that is typically what kills you on the mountain.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
combination of the lack of oxygen the cold eventually your body gives out and you die but it would turn out this speculation would not be true but where it's going to be a while before you find that out march of 1973 john cooper remember he was the one who was found dead from hypothermia near the third camp His family held a memorial service in Kansas.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But at that point, his body still had not been recovered.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So they found the body. It's relatively close to where they expected to find it. So, so far, everything seems fine. Normal, right? But there were some things that immediately made them wonder about what exactly happened.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So some of these odd things that surrounded Cooper's death, he was missing a crampon, which, you know, would have been something he definitely would have had on his feet for this climb. So in some point he has lost that crampon and he does not have his ice axe. He's not the first person to lose it. But once again, he doesn't have it. Now, you think about this.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
You got a positive identification. That's all you need.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I'm sorry. You didn't mean to do it, but instead of saying bilingual, you said bilingual.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
In Spanish or in English? In Spanish.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I'm not sure what it was. I know I'm different because I'm really tired. Yeah, maybe that's what it is. But you, I can't make excuses for.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I bought myself presents, but.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Well, I have to say, Squanto gave me a present. It was actually very sweet. It was just a flameless candle that he found at the deli that he went to go eat at.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I was like, oh, where did this come from?
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
That was just so good. Just the worst.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So the fact that this is so coherent, like if it were just, I heard a woman scream or even like I heard a woman yell help. I think this is at least embellished. I think somebody please help me. I'm drowning is at least embellished by this person who is claiming she heard this at this time. And you can think of reasons. Number one, she might lie because, you know, you want to be part of the story.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And she might embellish because she heard something less definitive and wants to make it sound more definitive.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So whatever the case, at this point, people become concerned. So by 1.30 a.m., the people on the boat have been looking for her. They haven't found her. This is two and a half hours later. They make a ship-to-shore call. Wagner gets on the radio and says, someone is missing from our boat. And this is another one of those things.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
We talked about this all the way back in the JonBenet Ramsey case, where initially JonBenet's mom, she makes the 911 call, and she says, we have a kidnapping. And she says, my daughter is missing, but she never says JonBenet's name. And some people think that's significant. Same thing here. Some people think this is significant. Someone is missing from our boat. Doesn't use Natalie's name.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You take that for what you will, if you think it's important. I think the facts are probably a little bit more important than the word choice, but nevertheless, it is something people have grabbed onto. So there are several people who hear this call and respond. There's a man named Paul Miller who was moored near the Splendor.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Don Whiting, who we heard about earlier, he was the manager from Doug's Harbor Reef. He was apparently closing down at the time and he and Bill Coleman, who was a cook from Doug's, all got in their boats and came out to help in the search. And they discovered it was Natalie who was missing. Another man who heard the call, Paul Wintler, went out to the Splendor to help.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors. Natalie Wood gave her heart to James Dean, but she married Robert Wagner. Forty years after her suspicious death, the question remains, was it an accident or was she murdered? Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my movie star co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
He actually picked up Wagner and the pair went to the island to search for Natalie to see if maybe she had gone there or ended up there, swam there. But there was no sign of her anywhere. At 2 a.m., Doug Bombard, who is the owner of Doug's Harbor Reef, he finds out about the situation. He alerts the harbor master, Doug Uden. Uden went out to the Splendor and convinced Wagner, who was very drunk.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
that they needed to make a call to the Coast Guard, and Wagner agreed, sometimes described as reluctantly.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Well, you know, Alice, as we record this, we're getting ready for Halloween. But as you listen to it, it's going to be December. So you guys are moving in to the Christmas season. And you may have already watched Miracle on 34th Street. Natalie Wood, who is the subject of our discussion today...
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah, and look, there are several things that already stand out when you're looking at this. I mean, one of them is the timing of everything. So this is all taking a lot longer than it should. This is my initial thought. You know, they talk about they're searching for her. How much searching would you personally do before calling for help? You're on a boat.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The person you're looking for is not on the boat. Yeah, I mean, if it were me... And, you know, I hate to like put myself in this position and act like this is the normal thing to do, but I feel like it is. I'd be calling everybody immediately. Like if I woke up, like just imagine a situation where you woke up and the person you love is not on your boat. I mean, what are you going to do?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You look around the boat. You don't see her. You're going to start to freak out, right? I mean, aren't most people going to start to freak out and you're going to want as much help as you can get. And it's dark. you know, and maybe she's out there treading water, how every second counts, right? And so I don't understand why everything took so long. I mean, you talk about this.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I mean, they don't call the Coast Guard until 325. That's four hours, more than four hours after she went missing. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And then you have the dinghy and the way the dinghy is found, which tells you, I think, one of two things happened. Either someone got in the dinghy, unhooked the dinghy from the boat, but then before they did anything with the dinghy, fell out of it.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Or someone unhooked the dinghy from the boat, pushed it off so that it would look like somebody had taken the dinghy, and then it got carried into shore. I mean, the fact that everything is basically where you would expect it to be if the dinghy were still just attached to the boat. You know, like the fact it's not in the own position.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Because if you were driving the dinghy, for instance, and fell out, and the dinghy kept going... Well, the dinghy would still be at the engine would be in the own position, but it's not right. So that, that whole thing is, is very strange as well. And I think tells you something about what happened. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it tells you something.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
If you've ever seen that movie, the old one, the classic one, not the remake, the little girl in that movie is Natalie Wood. It wasn't her first movie, but it was definitely the one that sort of thrust her into the limelight and made her, in many ways, America's sweetheart. And she would follow that up with a ton of hits. Movies that all of you have seen. Rebel Without a Cause. West Side Story.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So November 30th, 1981, Dr. Joseph Choi, who's the deputy medical examiner at the Los Angeles Medical Examiner's Office, performs an autopsy on Wood. The Huffington Post will later summarize his findings in an article. I'm going to read that to you. A recent diffuse, which means widespread bruise.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
measuring approximately four inches by one inch spread over the lateral aspect of natalie wood's right arm above the wrist on the left wrist was a slight superficial fresh bruise about a half inch in diameter numerous small superficial skin bruises measuring approximately a half to one inch in diameter
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
were scattered over the right and left lower legs they appeared to be relatively fresh the left knee area showed a recent bruise measuring approximately two inches in diameter the right ankle had a recent bruise measuring about two inches in diameter and there was a small superficial bruise on the posterior aspect of both lower legs each measuring a half inch to two inches a vertical bruise type abrasion on the left cheek
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
was the only head wound, and there were no deep traumatic injuries to the skull. Now, one thing you probably notice automatically is that's a lot of bruises. Apparently, at the time, Natalie was on a medication that made her bruise more easily. So that could be one reason for the bruises. But people are going to focus a lot on the bruises for obvious reasons in the years to come.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So an examination of the clothing Natalie had worn that night revealed other significant facts. more than twenty-four hours after she had been found the flannel nightgown the wool socks and the red down jacket were still wet the doctor wrote i picked up the jacket and noted that it was extremely heavy probably between thirty and forty pounds in its saturated state
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I also noted that a report from the toxicology laboratory revealed that the alcohol content of Natalie Wood's blood was 0.14%, 0.04% above the intoxication standard as set by the California Vehicular Code. Of course, now it's no longer 0.1, it's 0.08. So even a little bit more now. And look, 0.14 is not that drunk. You know, we've seen more in the Karen Reed case.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She was speculated to be like 0.28 or something. I mean, you can be a lot more drunk than that, but. you would at that point, you wouldn't necessarily be making good decisions. You shouldn't be operating a vehicle, that sort of thing. You're not pass out or blackout drunk. You're not so drunk, for instance, that you would be standing on the railing of a boat, pass out and flip into the water.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
That sort of thing's not going to happen, but it would affect sort of the way you're looking at things. From the toxicology report and the bruises, we were able to determine the probable cause of death. The vertical abrasion on her cheek told us that Natalie Wood, possibly attempting to board the dinghy, had fallen into the ocean, striking her face.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Because she had sustained no deep traumatic head wounds, we knew she had been conscious while in the water. The bruises on her lower legs, I believed at the time, were incurred during her fall.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
the saddest part of the story as far as i was concerned was revealed in the clothing she had worn the reason she drowned was the great weight of the jacket which had pulled her down when she attempted to climb into the dinghy if she had just taken off the jacket she might easily have made it into the dinghy and survived
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The reason she hadn't removed the killing jacket, as he refers to it, was suggested in the report from the toxicology lab that 0.14% of alcohol in her blood was, I believe, a deadly factor. She couldn't have been thinking clearly or she would have slipped off the jacket at once. Which, I mean, look, that's easy to say, even if you were sober.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
falling into the cold water on a November night, I could imagine you're not thinking clearly. You might not think to slip off the jacket until it's too late. She would not be the first person in a situation like that who doesn't do the thing that someone sitting and thinking about it thinks she should do.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Either way, at this point, they classify Natalie's death as an accident, and the investigation comes to an end.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah, it was a little rough on the actors and actresses back in the day. She really did. She really did. And in a way that she became one of those titanic names in pop culture. But I got to tell you, in a lot of ways, her career has been overshadowed by her death. A death that remains mysterious to this day. And we're going to talk about that.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
One of the reasons that I don't really buy a lot of police conspiracy theories is because police, I'm not going to say they're lazy, but they are overworked. And they're often, you know, trying to close cases. And so the idea that they're going to put all this effort into fabricating this massive conspiracy, I usually find to be very unbelievable.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Maybe, worst case, they're going to do something like plant some evidence real quick to make their job simpler. and solve the case. And you see a case like this, and it's hard for me not to think that it was just easier to accept the story. You know, you got these two famous guys on the boat. They're telling you this story. It roughly lines up with the bruises.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Let's just close the book and move on. Because if you look at this story for more than a couple minutes, it starts to all kind of fall apart. And you start to ask yourself all sorts of things and wonder why things weren't followed up on. And I feel like you see that so much when you start looking at this case. It just feels like, man, you guys should have done a little bit more here.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You really closed the book on this one way too soon. No matter what happened, it does not feel like this case was investigated thoroughly at all.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
We're going to talk about some of the mystery around it. One or two episodes. I'm not sure exactly how long this one's going to take. There's a lot here. This is... You know, what happened to her is there are so many different competing stories that it's difficult to know exactly what happened. And we thought we knew for a while, even though people had their suspicions.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
He said a lot for somebody who was supposedly asleep when everything happened. And then he's like, oh, the boat was banging up against the thing. It was slippery.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And let me just say, do we really think Natalie Wood, who can't swim in the middle of the night when it's cold, when she's half asleep and had a lot to drink, would get in the dinghy to what...
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
move it somewhere like she's gonna like parallel park it somewhere else yeah i mean she's gonna tie it up to a different part of the boat or would she just knock on the captain's door and be like hey hey man that i'm paying to do this can you just can you move the dinghy it's banging up against thing it's keeping me awake or they go out on their yacht all the time that's always her bedroom she's either used to this banging
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So the story up to this point is nothing unusual happened, and then Natalie Wood fell into the water and drowned. That's the story. But it all starts to fall apart in 2009. So that year, Dennis Davern and Marty Rooley published a book called Goodbye Natalie, Goodbye Splendor that detailed Davern's recollection of the events the evening that Natalie died.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
He would now say that he, in fact, lied to investigators when he was initially questioned. His new story was there was a fight. Natalie and Robert had gotten into a terrible argument and it ended in Robert smashing a wine bottle on the coffee table. At that point, not wanting to be involved, Christopher Walken went to his cabin and went to bed.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Natalie was horrified by all this and also decided to go to bed. But Wagner was so angry that he was irate and he followed her. The argument continued, and Davern tried to break it up, but Wagner told him to go away. A few minutes later, Natalie was missing. Davern didn't see what happened. He wasn't there.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
He went away, as was told, but eventually she goes missing, and when he was notified, he wanted to make immediate attempts to find her. He wanted to turn on the searchlight. He wanted to call authorities, but Wagner asked him not to. Now, details are sparse. Like, why would he ask him not to? There's going to be another story that's told as well that would help explain that.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But in recent years, there have been a lot of new questions raised about that. So with that, why don't we dive in to our story? So Natalie Wood, as we said, is a household name for many. She was a renowned actress. She had that old school Hollywood beauty from really the golden age of cinema. And she was known for starring in films such as, as we mentioned, Rebel Without a Cause, West Side Story.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The story feels more real, but it's still missing a lot. And you gotta remember, there were four people on this boat, right? Davern is already telling you, I lied initially. Now he's telling you this story, which tells you a lot more. But remember... What is something people tend to do when they tell a story about a crime that they are involved in? They tend to minimize.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So it's still very much like, oh, this stuff was happening, but I wasn't there when it was happening. And then this bad thing happened and there was some weird stuff. And I don't know what happened is essentially what he's saying.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So things start to move now. In 2011, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department reopens Natalie's case after receiving additional information from an unnamed source. I don't think it's hard to figure out who the sources are in this. Lana Wood, who was Natalie's sister and who actually stood in for her. You remember the movie Brainstorm they were making at the time?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
They finished that movie and it was released.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
natalie had already recorded most of her scenes lana would stand in for her for the few scenes that they needed so they could finish the movie she would say that years after this happened davern called her and she said she didn't know him she never talked to him but he just called her out of the blue and told her that he had been there when natalie fell overboard it was during this argument and that
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
it was Robert shoved her or was he either shoved her over the boat or he shoved her. And at some point after that, she stumbled and fell over the boat. Either way, according to Lana, he told Davern, leave her there. It'll teach her a lesson. And so that, uh, is more fulsome than what he's saying in the book.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Because in the book, he's just saying, oh, just all of a sudden she wasn't there and I wanted to look for her and Wagner didn't want to. This actually makes a lot more sense, what she's saying, than what he initially said. But he's never said that publicly. So he wrote the book. He's going to do an interview with NBC's Today Show. And he says the same thing he says in the book. I lied originally.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
He tells that same story. It's in the book and he urges investigators to, to take another look at the case. Is the story that Lana is telling true or not? I don't know. The one thing I'll say, you see this sometimes in cases where a family member will tell a story that is just kind of... mind-blowing if it's true.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And sometimes you wonder if they're doing that to get the police to act more so than that's what actually happened. And I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it is interesting that you have Davern who's now telling the story. And after he tells the story, starts telling the story, Lana comes forward with this version that I don't think she had said before. And now she's got this new version that,
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
as he's telling his story, but he's not supporting it. But either way, it's obvious now, something very different from what we were told happened on that boat.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
splendor in the grass to name just a few but she was much more than an actress you know we see these people in hollywood we see the the image that they want to portray and sometimes we forget i mean she was a daughter she was a wife she was a mother and she was a friend to many she was someone who was very much beloved in hollywood and that says a lot because hollywood is a
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah. And look, I mean, they all had a lot to lose here. And if they all were involved in this somehow tangentially, then you could imagine this scenario going down. It's almost like I know what you did last summer scenario and they had plenty of time. Because as we said, from the moment she went missing, supposedly, and the moment they call for help, a lot of time passes.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You know, you mentioned Robert Wan. They had more time than the people in Robert Wan did to get their story straight. And they all end up telling the same story.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
difficult place it's a cutthroat place it's a place where one person's success really can come at the cost of another so the fact that so many people loved her i think says something about who she was now she was not born natalie woods like so many people who go to hollywood that was her stage name and all of you of russian descent i'm going to go ahead and ask for your forgiveness but she was born natalia nikolovna zakharenko on july 20th 1938
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And let me just say this. The reporting on this is always that Robert Wagner was cleared. And I object to that reporting. Because if the case is still open and we don't know what happened and there were three other people on that boat, how has he been cleared? Was there a video that surfaced of him going to bed when she was still alive? Because unless that's what happened, he hasn't been cleared.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Even if they talked to everybody on the boat and they said, oh, he had nothing to do with it. He still hasn't been cleared. If it's an open case... He is still a suspect in this case. And I've got to feel there's a lot of PR going on here. And it's California. It's Hollywood. These are all important people. I just don't buy the story that we're being told.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So we're going to get into theories, but just one, you know, sort of tragic thing about this case. Robert and Natalie were actually married on a boat off of Catalina Island. So a lot of sort of tragic coincidence there. So what happened? Well, look, there are only a couple of real theories in this case. I'll go ahead and throw out one that I think obviously didn't happen, and that's suicide.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So Natalie had a history of mental health struggles. She did have this previous suicide attempt, though very clearly it was a cry for help. That has led some people to believe that this was a suicide attempt. There's a few problems with this. Number one, it doesn't really account for the bruises on her body. And this would be a very strange way for her to kill herself. She was terrified of water.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And, in fact, it's said that a fortune teller told either her or her mother, depending on the story you believe, that she would drown one day. That that is how she would die. And that was one of the reasons she was so afraid of water. So we've talked about suicide before.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
It can happen in strange ways that are unexpected, that don't always make sense to people who are thinking rationally, because a lot of times suicide is the result of irrational thinking. Number one, there's no evidence of it. Number two, it seems like a very strange way for her to do that. And number three, there's a lot of evidence that something else happened. So I think we can kick suicide out.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
is our potential theory. The other one is accidental drowning. And this was the conclusion that was reached in the initial investigation. Natalie drowned accidentally. Perhaps she tried to get in the dinghy and fell and hit her head. And unfortunately, due to the weight of her jacket, she did drown. As we said, she didn't know how to swim well. She had been drinking that evening.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, it is true that typically she would not go out in the dinghy alone. It is said that she, in fact, did not even know how to operate it, and she was afraid of dark water. Maybe because she'd been drinking, it lowered her inhibitions. She just wanted to get that dinghy moved for whatever reason. And she decided to do so. Maybe they did get in a fight.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And it wasn't that he pushed her or anything. She was just upset. And she just wanted to get away. She just wanted to get away from the boat. She wasn't thinking clearly. She tried to get in the dinghy. She fell, hit her head, and drowned. That is a possibility. And it is certainly one that a lot of people, including the people who initially looked at this case, believe.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
in San Francisco, California. She was the daughter of Russian immigrants. Her family had a really interesting story, actually. They were very much involved in the revolution on the side of the white Russians. So white Russian is more than just a drink. It's also the people who opposed the Soviets back in the revolutionary period in Russian history. So you had the White Army and the Red Army
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
if you know your history the red army won so her family actually fled to china started in harbin which is a fascinating place if you ever get a chance to go to china i've been to harbin in the winter when it's like negative 50 degrees they have this incredible ice festival where they build this entire city out of ice it is unbelievable if you ever get a chance to go you should and what's really interesting about harbin it's in siberia and it's right on the border
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And I feel like we're starting to see what, as people start talking more and more, we're starting to see what happened. And you see this in cases, like you often, you know, you'll see this in other cases where the more police talk to someone, the more their story changes. And sometimes people will say, well, you know, why would they say that? You know, why would, why would they admit to that?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
They must've been coerced or something, right? That's the only reason that would happen. Otherwise they would stick to their original story. And that's just not true. because people feel like they can talk their way out of things. Robert Wagner would have been best to have shut up and just never talked about this case.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But as the pressure kept mounting and people kept saying things, and these comments are relatively recent, he finally does an interview and sort of admits that a lot of the things that Davern said are true. So we now know this was not just an ordinary night.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
we know you know christopher walken wasn't telling the truth when he said he just went to bed no biggie right no there was a fight that night and it was about his jealousy and him thinking that natalie and christopher walken were flirting with each other and whatever else happened he smashed that wine bottle it got heated and davern now says oh i'll put on the music and just basically ignore it like i didn't want to be a part of this
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And he kind of says, look, I was the employee. It wasn't my place. So I put on the music just to drown it out what was happening. And I think what happened at that point is kind of hard to say. I have my theory that I'll share when this is over. But certainly the fight led to her death.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
It either led to her death because she was pushed off that boat or because Robert Wagner did something or because she was trying to get away. I think one of those two things happened. I think she was either getting in that dinghy to get away from him or something else happened.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So I don't think that's what happened. I'll say this. I don't think this was an intentional murder. I don't think he was trying to cover anything up because let's be clear. If Robert Wagner had slapped her and knocked her unconscious in 1981, nothing would have happened to him. He didn't have to cover this up with a murder. You know, I mean, nothing happened to him when she died.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Nothing was going to happen to him for this. He could have gotten away with that. So I don't think that's what happened. But I do think the basic story that Davern told is true. I think that they got into a big... And I think they all know it. I think Christopher Walken knows it. I think Wagner obviously knows it. I think Davern knows it.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I think Lana is telling the truth when she says that Davern called her. i think that they got into this huge fight i think he pushed her and i think she fell off the boat i think she fell off the boat into the water and he said something like it'll teach her a lesson right and nobody helped her and i think at some point you know by the time they were ready to help her The noises stopped.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
between China and Russia. So there's all this old Russian architecture. So you have the sort of the churches with the onion domes like you see in Red Square. It's this fascinating mix of Chinese and Russian culture. As a matter of fact, they get so few English speakers. My wife and I, we go there. Obviously, we don't speak Chinese. We go to a restaurant And, you know, we walk in.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The yelling stopped. I don't think she was yelling, I'm drowning. But I do think that lady heard her screams for help because I think those were real. And I think at some point they realized that she was gone. And then I think somebody decided to undo that dinghy and push it off to make this story about how they were going to move the dinghy. And then the rest sort of fell into place.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
That's what I think happened based on this. Obviously, it's speculation. I can't prove it. I don't think you'll ever be able to prove it. But given what we know now, that is much more likely than she, of her own volition, decided to get in that dinghy and then something happened.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And I think Davern, for whatever reason, told the closest to the real story. And it could be because... You know, he feels guilty. And look, I mean, it's possible... Though I think it's unlikely that they got into a fight and Christopher Walken was like, I'm out. And he goes to his room and goes to sleep. And it's possible that Davern was like, I don't want to be any part of this.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And he goes over and he's playing his music and he doesn't hear. But it is hard for me to believe that any of them didn't know after she went in the water. That's just hard for me to believe. However that went down, it's just hard for me to believe. Or that they didn't all find out. And one of the reasons why it's hard for me to believe, they clearly got their story together.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
We're the only white people there. And they gave us a Russian menu because they just assumed we're Russian because that's the only white people they see in Harbin. It's hard to get to, but well worth it. Anyways, her family, they flee from Russia to Harbin. They go to Shanghai and then they end up in the United States. And from a very early age, she is exhibiting talent. She's got charisma.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
None of them, not Christopher Walken, not Robert Wagner, not Davern, told the police there was a big fight and she was upset. Because that's important, right? If that were true, that's a really important part of the story. Because it could tell you why she got in the dinghy. Even if it's a pure accident, why'd she get in the dinghy? Why would she do that?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Christopher Walken comes up with this cockamamie story that she was moving it because it was bumping against the boat. That's absurd. That's stupid. She wouldn't have done that. Especially not that drunk, but even if she was much more drunk, she wouldn't have done that. But that's the story he comes up with because he's trying to come up with something that makes sense.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The other thing that makes sense is she was so upset she wanted to get away from the boat. They didn't tell the police that. None of them did, which means for some reason they all got together while she was out there in the water before they called the Coast Guard or called out to shore for help. They had gotten together and decided when we tell this story, this is the story we're going to tell.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And all of them agreed to do that. Why would they do that if they had no knowledge, no involvement, and if it was a simple accident? Why would they agree to change their story? All of them, not just Robert, all of them, including the guy who supposedly was asleep when it happened. That doesn't make any sense.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And if she fell into the water, why was the dinghy not still attached to the boat? Like if she was like getting down there to get in the dinghy and slipped off the ramp, like he was saying and fell in the water, the dinghy should still be there. How did the dinghy get separated from the boat? It doesn't make any sense.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah, unhook the dinghy and it fell out.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And if she was standing in the dinghy, imagine she gets into the dinghy, she undoes the dinghy, and she's getting ready to turn the dinghy on and move away, and then falls into the water. Where'd the bruises come from? Did she fall in the dinghy first, get bruised up, then stand up, then fall out of the dinghy? I mean, all these things, these pieces of evidence do not line up with this story.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
It lines up much better if she was being assaulted by somebody hit something as she's going over the edge. maybe hit things on her way down, ended up in the water. That makes a lot more sense about how she got all these different bruises than she somehow fell out of the dinghy. So I wish, I don't know. I mean, I'm glad the police took a deeper look at this case.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She's cute as a button. And her family thinks she could be an actor. So at the age of four, she earned her first role in the movie Happyland after she won over the director with all that charm that we talked about. And a few years later, She got another role this time in Tomorrow is Forever.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I wish there was some way for them to take an even more in-depth look at this case. I recognize there's just not evidence unless you really need somebody, one of these three to have told somebody else, which you kind of have. with the whole Lana story. But unless one of them cracks, or Robert Wagner on his deathbed confesses, or somebody else does, we'll probably never know exactly what happened.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But I feel pretty confident that I do know what happened that night. And either way, rest in peace, Natalie Wood. Okay, guys.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah, that's a sad one. That's a tragic Hollywood story, but it's all too human, right? I mean, the kind of thing that you can imagine happening in any jealous, abusive relationship, but it's one that we all know about because Natalie Wood. Okay, guys, well, I hope you enjoyed that story.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
If you have thoughts or theories or questions, shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com, at prosecutorspod for all your social media. This was a case suggested, like so many cases. Send us an email to do that. It's the best way to get on the list, and we will cover your case eventually. Well, Alice, do you want to answer one question before we sign off?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So as we've said many times, if you leave a five-star review and leave a question, we will answer it for you on this podcast. And this week, we have a nice light question to go with the darkness of the story we just talked about. So Alice, this is from Jazzmouse, who wants to know, if you could only ever have one type of cheese again, which type would you pick and why?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Only one type of cheese.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Pizza cheese, Mexican cheese, cheese dip.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, this was a small role, but like so many actors who are just getting into the business, sometimes it's those small roles where you kind of steal all the scenes that you're in that really give you your opportunity. And that was her. She captivated the audience and she earned herself another role. And this would be her first starring role.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I think I would go with mozzarella for similar reasons. You can do a lot. You could do a lot with mozzarella. You know, it's important that it'd be a cheese that you can put on pizza. I feel like, you know, and I feel like if you do mozzarella, you also, you get like fresh mozzarella and buffalo mozzarella and like all the different kinds of mozzarella, but that's a hard question.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah. That's a great question. We want to know your answer to that question.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
One cheese. That's tough. That's tough. Because, you know, Swiss cheese is so great on all your sandwiches.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
There you go. There you go. So let us know which cheese you can't live without. Can't wait to hear from you. Thank you to all our patrons who joined us tonight. If you want to hear these episodes early and ad-free or want to join us for a live recording, do join Patreon. I do want to say we're recording this in October, so I want to give a shout out to Jason for the silver linings. Handbook?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Playbook? Handbook. Handbook. I always get it wrong. Silver Linings Handbook. I was on his show for Halloween. We had a great discussion about mysteries. Really enjoyed it. Also to Vintage Villains, who Allison Dixon, who many of you know, she hosts that show. I was on that show as well.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
in october so if you somehow miss those two shows go back and listen to them they're a lot of fun silver linings handbook check it out okay alice anything else you want to share before we sign off
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I will say this, going into this, I assumed this was an accident and people were just being conspiratorial. But then when you look at it, you're like, yeah, there's a lot going on here. So, I mean, it could have been an accident. I'm not saying that's impossible.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She played Susan Walker in Miracle on 34th Street when she debuted in 1947. And that was the one that really put her on the map. At age 16, she co-starred, along with James Dean, in Rebel Without a Cause, earning herself an Academy Award nomination and really cementing herself as one of the great actresses of her age. And she would go on to star in many other films over the years, including...
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The fact that there is at best, I mean, I guess at best it was a pure accident, but either way, as Alice said, there is an accident, a part of it. I think that's what makes it so hard to solve. I think you're right. I think the fact that it's an accident in some way makes it harder to determine whether or not there was a criminal element.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
or not but hey it's an open case so if you got any information send it to uh the police it's not too late to get justice all right guys well we will see you next week with a new case but until then i'm brett and i'm alice and we are the prosecutors
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The Searchers. She played a very minor role in that, but a very important role. Splendor in the Grass. West Side Story. Gypsy. Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. Meteor. From Here to Eternity. The Last Married Couple in America. And Brainstorm, which would be her final film.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And her friends knew about this sexual assault, this rape, for most of her life, but a lot of people didn't know who it was. After Kirk Douglas died, it was reported that he was the person who had assaulted her. Obviously, it's impossible to prove that definitively now, but I think everyone who knew Natalie thinks that's absolutely what happened.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And, you know, the Me Too movement sort of uncovered a lot of stuff in Hollywood and how abusive it can be, and I think that's probably been going on for a long time. Whatever the case, it certainly is true that Natalie's mental health struggles, her depression, it would catch up with her. And in 1966, she attempted suicide by swallowing sleeping pills.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Luckily, there was a friend who was staying with her at the time who found her unresponsive. And as a matter of fact, she even told her friend that she was going to do this. And The friend got her help. I think this was more of a cry for help than anything. I mean, you know, I hate to say it wasn't a real suicide attempt, but I think we've seen this before.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
A lot of times people who need help, but they don't know how to ask for it. They do something like this. She did this. She was taken to the hospital and she had her stomach pumped and she began receiving therapy. Really the therapy that she needed. And she got a little bit better. And in 1969, she married again. This time it was to writer-producer Richard Gregson.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The pair had a daughter, Natasha, who was born in 1970. But unfortunately, Richard had an affair. And not only did he have an affair, he had an affair with Natalie's own secretary. And the pair would end up divorcing in April of 1972. And that's when things took a bit of a shocking turn.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
twist so we talked about Robert Wagner and we talked about how that relationship didn't work out well it's 1972 she gets this divorce somehow her and Robert reconnect and They're at a party, they see each other, they start talking, and whatever it was that had been the foundation of their past relationship is rekindled.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And they are remarried in July 1972, so only a couple months after her divorce. And in 1974, they have their first child together, a daughter named Courtney. And at this point... Natalie decides she's going to take a step back from her career as an actress and she's going to focus on her family. And really for the next few years, she doesn't do a whole lot. She makes some cameo appearances.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She does some television stuff, but nowhere near the kind of rigorous career she'd had before. She's really focusing on her family.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
OK, so let's walk through what happened. We'll go with the timeline and we're going to give you sort of what's been publicly reported. We can give you what people say, but understand everything about this is disputed. And the only people who actually know are the four people who are on that boat, only three of whom are still alive. So November 28th, 1981, 7 p.m.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Robert Wagner, Natalie Wood, Christopher Walken and Dennis Davern enjoyed a dinner at Doug's Harbor Reef in Catalina, California. So the group ate and drank throughout their time at Doug's to the point where the manager, Don Whiting, was concerned that they were too drunk. to get back to the yacht safely on their dinghy.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You know, the YouTube channel barely gets any traction. There's a reason for it.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But, you know, when did such concerns ever stop anyone in a story like this from going ahead and doing what they were going to do anyways? So they're there for about three and a half hours, eating and drinking the whole time. At around 10.30, the group leaves the restaurant and they head back to the yacht, which, as Alice said, was named The Splendor.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Don Whiting asked the Harbor Patrol to make sure they arrived back safely. Now, you might think the Harbor Patrol would say, why are they boating if they're drunk? But no, they don't do that. So they head back to the boat. Natalie removed some of her jewelry and changed into her flannel nightgown, signaling that she was ready for bed.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, I will say this. I realize these people have no reason to lie, the people who are nearby in the boat. But I will say when I hear someone say that someone was shouting, somebody please help me, I'm drowning. I don't know that I actually believe that. I'm not going to say it's impossible. But generally speaking, when people are actually drowning, they don't actually do that.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah. We make no effort for them at all. I barely put on a shirt.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
That's what they do in the movies, right? In the movies, people are making these very sort of coherent calls for help. In a true drowning, a lot of times they're completely silent. because the people are struggling and they can't actually make any noise. And I will tell you, I've told my story about the time I had to swim to the boat.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So about halfway through that, I was in such distress that I actually decided I'm going to call for help. to the people in the boat and I couldn't do it because of like, I was struggling trying to swim. I couldn't really get anything out. And so at that point I was just like, I just got to go. I can't actually call for help.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And I like South Carolina. Cock Commander or whatever his name is. Sir Cox a lot. I can't forget what his name is. Sir Cox a lot.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
What do you think about that? You know, it used to be legal in Oklahoma. And then they made it illegal. And I'll just tell you, I grew up in a place where you saw people raising roosters all the time and it wasn't for fertilizing. It wasn't for me. It wasn't for me. But I've never been to a cockfight.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I will say this. I don't want to alienate any listeners. I would not go to a dog fight. I find that personally offensive. I love dogs. I would totally go to a cock fight. Can I just tell you though? If it was legal. If I was in the Philippines, I would go.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Have we started this yet, or are we still talking? Guys, we want to talk about one of our favorite podcasts, a podcast we love so much we have appeared on it multiple times, Silver Linings Handbook with Jason Blair. Jason is a friend of ours, but he's not just that.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
He is an incredible interviewer, an incredible podcaster, and his episodes will pull something out of you you didn't even know existed.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
was there he says that he wants to have conversations that inspire and he does just that with interesting conversations with interesting people and the themes that he looks at are not just true crime though he's got a lot of great true crime episodes as well he talks about growth understanding belonging compassion things that are important in true crime and in life
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We're going to get someone who wants to start with these brothers. Okay. Before we get started, though, because I mentioned Finding Nemo. You've seen Finding Nemo, right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So my, I went to the finding Nemo ride when we were at Disney world.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
There's a ride. And they also, the ride kind of sucks, but it ends in an aquarium and the aquarium is awesome.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
The whale that swallows them and then takes them to Sydney? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't think the whale can actually eat something that big.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And also, you had God intervening. So even if it was, well, I mean, a killer whale can eat people.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
But if, I mean, we have divine intervention here. So if, swallow you, whatever. Blue whales are crazy. I mean, do you realize blue whales, the largest, you know, you think about dinosaurs. You think about how huge dinosaurs are. And in your mind, the big animals all lived way back in the day, right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
The blue whale, which lives on the earth right now, is the largest animal to ever exist on the face of the earth. You can stand in its heart.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Massive amounts of it. And that's how the guy got eaten. Because, you know, they go to the bottom and they go up. They open their mouth and they go all the way up and they're eating on it and they breach. And that dude just happened to be where the whale was breaching. And so the whale ate him. That's pretty crazy.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
He bit my mother-in-law and felt bad about it because he didn't know it was her when he did it because he knows her and likes her. But it was our fault. It was our fault. But he did bite her and felt bad about it. Yeah. But he would never bite me. He would never bite my wife. He'd never bite my kids. He would never do that.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
but sometimes the dogs i've had oh first 100 he would bite me yeah now he i'm nobody to him and there would be bite marks on both sides unlike in the karen reed case where they were only really cover uh barely bite marks at all like scratches kind of the scratches you might have for instance if your arm hit a i don't know the rear of a vehicle and then smashed out the tail light not to get onto another controversial case while we're talking about this case but nevertheless
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
But just go ahead and leave that in, Jason. People will enjoy that.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
She said hopefully. So you interrupted me earlier. I was trying to tell a story.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I know. I know we need to get started. I get it. Give us some grace, guys. We're going to be talking about this case for 25 episodes.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
In these big cases. I wish I hadn't already told my psychopath story. because by the way yeah i gotta tell you this at some point one of the people at work failed failed or didn't fail the psychopath story and you'll not be surprised to learn who it is so i'll do that with you later so what was i talking about oh television television So you don't, you're just like a tiger.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Because here's the thing. They watch Auburn lose in basketball, right? Surely.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yes, that's right. She takes her kids to the bar.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I was at the bar last weekend. The kids were there. They were all drinking.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It's a good point. The baby's two year birthday party and one year birthday party last year was at the bar. Great bar.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
My daughter did the same thing. My wife gave her the credit card and she just like bellied up to the bar with the credit card and ordered all the drinks. I mean, what did you... She's like, daddy would like an IPA.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett. And I'm joined, as always, by my easily distracted co-host, Alice. Hello, Alice.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
As long as you don't do Calou. You know Calou?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Before we do, I've been trying to tell the story for like 30 minutes.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So look, I don't know what it is about Bluey. Bluey is a masterpiece. Okay. So we're watching Bluey, my daughter, you know, you know how I feel. I mean, I am, look, I am barely capable of surviving as an adult. That's not true. I tell my wife, I'm just not cut out for life. I need to be hit by a bus or something. I cannot live. I cannot experience life as an adult because I just take everything.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It's just too hard for me. I'm very emotional. I'm an emotional person. Have I ever told you about the time? I'll talk about Blue in a second. Have I ever told you about the time that I took the malaria medication?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So my wife and I back, it's been 12 years now since we went to Chernobyl. So we just worked on a presidential campaign. I want to say I won't say which one, though. You can probably figure it out based on various reporting. So back in 2012 and after that was over, we decided we're going to take an around the world trip. So we bought a one-way ticket.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, if you have an opportunity to do this, you should totally do it. We bought a one-way ticket to Hong Kong. Longest flight in the world. I mean, it's actually not. The flight to Sydney is further. But nevertheless, it was like 18 hours. 18-hour flight to Hong Kong. You've been to Taiwan, right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
If you have never flown on one of those flights, and it'll never be like it was because at the time, there's no internet. I loved it. I loved trans-Pacific flights so much because once you got on that flight, no one could call you. No one could contact you. Just for 18 hours, you were free. It was just you. Just you and your book. Whatever. You could relax. It was amazing. Anyways...
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I know why I'm talking about this. But anyways, we did this whole round.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It was amazing. And you're right. And if you're going to Asia, they give you that great Asian food, like whatever it is. It's basically a bento box. You know, probably some seaweed soup. Why am I? Yes. Why am I talking about this again? How did I lead into this? Remind me.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Around the world. And I literally have no idea where we went. What are we doing here? How did I get into this? I will say this. We went to Singapore and I went to Raffles, which is a hotel in Singapore, where they invented the Singapore sling. And it was $30 to get an original Singapore sling.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And, you know, it's funny how much your life changes because at the time, $30 for a drink was just absurd. It's still kind of absurd. But now, like, whatever, right? But at the time, it's like, I can get one of these and we're going to share it, right? And we had our Singapore sling and it was good. What was the point of the story? I can't remember.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I seriously can't remember what the point of the story was. What's the point of all of this? Because I was talking about Bluey.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. Or sign off half the time, but it's okay.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So, and I promise. Okay, we're going to get started on the case soon. I promise.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And this kind of, you know, mosquitoes play into the case. And this is about mosquitoes. So there you go. That's true. It all ties in.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So I'm going to Asia at, and I mean, it was January. So I don't know that it was actually... It's always hot in Asia.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
If you go to Singapore, you go to Hong Kong, you go to Vietnam, it's hot.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It doesn't matter what time it is. So I had to get malaria medication. And so I had read about these dreams. At the time, I was writing books and stuff. And I had read about these dreams that you have when you're taking malaria medication, quinine. And I wanted to have these dreams, right? Malaria dreams. They're crazy. Well, yeah, there you go.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So I go to the doctor and I'm like, hey, I'm going to Southeast Asia. Probably need some malaria drugs. And he's like, yeah, we got these two malaria drugs. They're great. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want the new drugs. I want quinine. I want to go like the British did in 1880. And they're like, you know that has really serious side effects, right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You know, when we do these big cases that everybody's been wanting to hear, I feel like, you know, we got to just get right into it because I don't, you know, chit chat. You know how people are about chit chat?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And I was like, that's fine. That's what I want. And they're like, you know those are more expensive than the new drugs we have that don't have the side effects and you don't have to take as much of.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I want the Quinoa. So the doctor's like, Whatever, man. He gives me the quinine. And so because it's a malaria drug, malaria is a parasite. You have to basically take it so that your body is filled with quinine. Exactly. So that when the parasite enters your body, it dies. You have to coat yourself with quinine. So you have to take it weeks before you start your trip.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So I get my quinine and I'm taking it weeks before. And right as we're getting ready to leave, I just, I started noticing I was just so emotional all the time. Like I would watch commercials And I would tear up. I'd be like, this is like making me sad, right? And there was this song. I can't remember who it's by. But it was called Welcome to the Future, right? It's a country music song.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And so it starts off with like the guy's talking about how his grandfather fought in World War II. And now he's on a video call with Tokyo, Welcome to the Future.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
and it ends it does this whole thing about how like you know his friend was the running back and the high school football team and they burned a cross in his front yard because he dated the prom queen and then like martin luther king had a dream and i just start bawling i hear this song which i've heard a thousand times kitschy country club you know and i just start bawling i'm like
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You know, we got all these. Yeah, that's true. We don't have forever. You know, if you're just joining us for this case, then I mean, kind of late to the game. I mean, I'm. I'm just saying. We have a great back catalog, though. We do. So many good episodes. Before we get started, here's the thing.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
If you're just joining us, I mean, one of the things that sort of defines Alice and I and how we do these cases, we tend to maybe occasionally, sometimes, go down, I don't know, what would you call it?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. And I'm about to start into that because I'm about to have a baby. I know.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And then I lost it, you know, and that's the thing about being a parent is because you're trying to hold on.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I would call it rabbit trails as well. Who calls it rabbit holes? I don't know. Do rabbits even live in holes?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I think everybody should be a parent. I know that's not the thing to say these days, but I think everybody should be a parent.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
The thing about parenting is... before you have kids, nothing you do really matters because it all ends with you. Right? Like, you know, and look, I get it. Some people don't have kids and that's great. You know, God bless you. That's not me. That's you. That's fine. But if you don't have kids, it all dies with you. And that's, that's fine. Right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Like your accomplishments, your failures, your highs, your lows, your happinesses, your sadnesses, whatever, it all dies with you. And that's fine. It's like, Kind of a cool way to live your life in some ways. It's like, whatever. It's kind of like, you know, that's good. I lived my life. I did the best I could. Whatever. See you next life, right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
But when you have kids, everything you have, this like consequence that goes beyond you and everything you do, you feel like, number one, you're always failing.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Right. I mean, the feeling of failure, I feel failure more with children than I've ever felt with anything in my life. Cause I always feel like I'm failing them. Like I'm not doing whatever I'm doing is not what I should be doing for them. That's what I feel about it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
If you don't start out with a lot of bunnies, you end up with a lot of bunnies.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Have you ever plant mint? It just takes over the whole yard.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And I always, you know, I thought I should have kids because that's what people do. I was like, what do people do? They get jobs, they get married, they have kids. I have a job, I got married, I guess I need to have kids. And I remember right before my daughter was born thinking,
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
well this is the end of my life all the fun things i've been able to do before you know can't just go to a concert can't just go to the bar yeah and then it was like wow i started yeah exactly yeah exactly i was like why did i do this before yeah it's like technical right like i didn't know i was living in black and white
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah, it's so true. You know, Alice, I would say that this is a great place to start the episode, but I look at the recording and actually we have been talking for so long that I feel like. This is probably the end of this episode.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah, it's okay. We'll do episode two tomorrow, right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Okay, so just looking at this, looks like, okay, looking at our calendar, looks like this episode will come out around the 1st of April. I guess we'll go ahead and do the next episode tomorrow, just for you guys who have listened to this whole thing. I feel like you deserve, rather than wait a whole week, we'll do the next episode tomorrow. Does that sound good to you, Alice?
The Prosecutors
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I guess that makes sense. Since this one went kind of long on the banner.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Well, we're already excited to hear your thoughts on this case, so shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail.com and prosecutorspod for all your social media. Talk about it on the gallery. We'll be there. If you want to view these episodes early and ad-free, join Patreon. Okay, Alice, before we sign off for today, do you have any last-minute thoughts as we get started on this case?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Better make it a good one. You want to leave a legacy. Maybe this case will be our final statement on this podcast. A closing argument, perhaps. A closing argument. Yeah, it's a good way to end this. This episode is no joke. It's a very serious, very serious issue.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Well, thank you, Alice, for those thoughts. I have another thought.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It's an important month. But yeah, I agree with Alice 100%. And this is definitely the longest introduction we've ever had to a case, and that's fine. That's fine. This case deserves it. One case should have a longer introduction than this case.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Never seen a rabbit hole. I mean, gophers live in holes.
The Prosecutors
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That's a good point. Fine point, Alice. Fine point.
The Prosecutors
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That's why you are the best co-host in True Crime.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Happy April. Welcome to April. Thank you, Alice. All right. We'll be back tomorrow with the continuation of this case. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are the prosecutors. Okay. Yeah. So we're just going to, we're going to talk around it. We have just been, you know, we've gone so long.
The Prosecutors
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You know, we're just going to have to, we're going to have to really get into the case tomorrow.
The Prosecutors
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Groundhog? I was just about to talk about the groundhog.
The Prosecutors
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We are so on the same page. So every year, I watch Groundhog Day. It's like a thing I do. Every February 2nd. Great movie you haven't seen. Have you seen it with Bill Murray?
The Prosecutors
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It's a great movie. You know, the same thing happens over and over and over again.
The Prosecutors
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That was the joke. And you know what I always wondered? And I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this. Maybe we discuss this. I don't know. It's like Groundhog Day. So Groundhog Day now, if you say it's like Groundhog Day, people know that that means it's like the same day is happening over again. I assume that comes from the movie, right? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
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Yeah, but I just want to make sure. Because it's possible that people always use that idiom. It's like Groundhog Day to mean a day that happens every year, right? And that the movie maker was like, what if it really was like Groundhog Day and every day was the same day? And I just don't know if it started that way with the idiom or if the idiom comes from the movie.
The Prosecutors
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Idioms are weird. In Alabama, I don't know what it's like where you guys are from. And I'm sorry if this offends some of you. But I'll ask Alice. Alice, when the sun is shining and it's raining, what do you say? Do you have a phrase for that in your culture?
The Prosecutors
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In some places they call that sun showers or something like that. In the South, we say the devil is beating his wife.
The Prosecutors
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So the devil is beating his wife, which I said, don't be offended. That's just what people say. Right. So where did that come from? I have no idea. I don't know who came up with that the first time. Right. But that's what people say. And so maybe Groundhog Day was the same way. People just said. Man, you know, today was just like yesterday. It's like Groundhog Day.
The Prosecutors
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And people are like, yeah, I know what you mean.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
There you go. It probably would not be as fun as Groundhog Day.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Oh, rabbit trails and holes. Yeah, so... Was that a rabbit trail that we just went down?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We're going to talk about trails through the forest in this case.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Do turtles make trails? Because turtles and rabbits often go together. I don't know why.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
But I see what you're saying. But it's weird that turtles live on the land and in the water at the same time.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Absolutely they can drown. I don't know that I knew that. I mean, I guess I did know that.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Here we go. Here we go. Another story. I'm sorry, guys. Here we go.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
After this story, we're getting started, though. So go ahead.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Well, That's a good question. What is the difference between a turtle and a tortoise? Can one of them live underwater or do they both have to breathe air?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So you don't think they're related. They're just like.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors. I hope you're ready. It's what you've asked for more than anything else. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined as... Hey, hey. That's... You're already messing up. You're already messing up. So, you know, we gotta... Why did I just do that?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
There are turtles in that pond in the park. Oh, for sure. You always see their little noses sticking out of the water. I've seen that so they can breathe.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
all i'm saying what would the rocks what would the rocks have to do with anything oh because they can stand on the rocks correct correct it was a place to rest so that they could breathe because they would otherwise paddle until they could no longer paddle have you ever had turtle soup yeah of course it's a very new orlean thing that's what i was about to say yeah i went to commander's palace for the first time last year that's what they're famous for a turtle man it's so good
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
The first time I ever saw turtle soup was the first time I ever went to a Vietnamese restaurant. It was a nice Vietnamese restaurant in Georgetown. And the person sitting across from me was having turtle soup. And at that restaurant, which, like I said, was very nice, it was served in the shale. Oh, wow.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
See, that reminds me of like a she-crab soup, what you're describing. You ever had she-crab soup? Oh, she-crab soup is one of my favorites. I love she-crab soup. Oh, God. I'm making myself hungry. Are there he-crabs? I always wondered the same thing. And if you make she-crab soup, do you have to make sure it's like a female crab? Like, is that particular?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It's kind of like how all... I think all chicken we eat is...
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
If you're listening, I want you to tell us whether or not roosters have testicles.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
There's no telling where you're going with this. Have you killed a rooster, too? I'm not.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
In law class, not so much. So here's a question about that. And I'm sorry to keep going down rabbit trails on this, but you just keep raising questions.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So if you have a hen, I don't know anything about this. And I know this is really popular amongst sort of the hipster set these days. Do we still have hipsters?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Do you need a rooster to cause the chicken to lay eggs?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Or do you not want a rooster because you want eggs that are not fertilized?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Does a rooster protect the hens because it's got those spurs?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Okay. So can you, to the extent you remember, I know it's been 30 something years. Can you walk me through that day, May 5th, the day that the murders happened? What, what you remember when you guys were together and when you sort of went your separate ways for that day?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
The day before. May 5th is the day that the kids were killed and they were found on May 6th. So Wednesday, May 5th, they were killed. Then they were found about 12 hours-ish later, 16 hours-ish later on May 6th. So May 5th would have been the day where it's important, it's really important to know sort of where
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Congratulations. It's funny because... know 30 30 whatever years ago or longer i don't know how long it's been um you know you you're in that documentary paradise lost and for so many people it's it's like you're frozen in time you know what i mean like you as a teenager is what people say that has to be a little strange for you yeah it's a little
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Damien and Jason were you probably wouldn't even know where Jesse was because I don't think there's any indication y'all were ever together. But to the extent you remember that day and you may not remember it at all like I said it's been 30 something years.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
that day for you, you know, it's not like someone in your family disappeared that day. It's not like anything traumatic happened to you that day. So you're being asked two weeks later, three weeks later, you know, or even a couple of days later what happened. And it's hard to remember. Were you ever, were you at the laundromat that day? Does that ring any bells?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Did people hang out at the laundromat? It seems like people were at the laundromat a lot.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
You get dropped off at your house, and then you just spend the rest of the night there. Do y'all go anywhere?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
And was it just you and your mom together at that time?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So I want to ask you about Gnarline Hollingsworth.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
I guess at one time was your aunt... I don't know. It's so hard to follow Narlene and her sort of travails in her relationships. But no, I'm sure as you know, Narlene, and it's a very important part of the case, Narlene and her family say they were on their way to that same laundromat to pick up Dixie Hubbard.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
And they're driving down the access road, the service road, right next to Blue Beacon Truck Wash and where the murders happened.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So it's a different laundromat than the one that you guys would have been at?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
And maybe that's me misunderstanding. I just always assumed it was the same laundromat, but I guess it's possible.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Was your aunt that worked the laundromat, that's Dixie Hubbard though, right?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Okay. Let me just ask you this. Would they have been driving down that service road to go from their house to the laundromat to pick up your aunt? Is that a way that one would go?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So you lived at Lakeshore, right? Yes. And Damien lived at Broadway Trailer Park.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
I'll put it this way. You live north of the interstate, and he lives south of the interstate, right?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
One thing that some people have suggested, and I'm just curious if you know if this is true, that as Damien is sort of walking to Lakeshore, if Damien were to walk to Lakeshore, that one way he could have gone is through the little neighborhood, through the woods, to the interstate, and then basically up to Lakeshore.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Let me ask you this. Not necessarily the night of the murders, but is there ever a night that you could think of that you guys might have been walking in that place where Narlene says she saw you?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Do you remember if you had a pair of pants with white flowers on it?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
You know, the prosecution's theory was it wasn't you, that you weren't there at all, that it was actually Jason, that they saw Jason. I don't think so. So the people, and I'm just going to name you the people who said that they saw two people who they thought were Damien and you.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
And just and also just why if you know why they would lie or they just go along with her or whatever. So Ricky Hollingsworth, her ex-husband, once an ex-husband. Anthony, who seems like honestly probably the least credible about any of them. Hollingsworth. Tabitha was another one. And Tabitha was one. Like I said, Anthony, I don't know how.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Yeah. And we saw you obviously in very vulnerable moments. What was that like? You know, you're in this trial. Someone you love is on trial for murder. The father of your child. That had to have been just one of the worst things that ever happened to you.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Well, I mean, Marlene, mostly. Why do you think Marlene?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
How prevalent was the idea that there was a reward for information leading to the killers? Was that something that people talked about and people knew about? Could that have been a motivation for her?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Strain your memory. But one thing people have focused on is there are reports that you and Damien got into a big fight on May 6th. So that would be the day after the murders. And people have speculated that that was related to the murders in some way. Do you remember that fight and do you remember what it was actually about?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
And you've, I mean, one thing I'll say is it seems like you've never wavered in your belief that they had nothing to do with this.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Do you think any of them are capable of doing this?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So just to sort of wrap up, if Damien was involved in some sort of cult, you didn't know anything about it?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
He never said anything to you that gave you any indication that he was somehow involved in this. No, never. So you said you didn't watch the documentary until you were older. So you didn't watch it when it came out.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Do you know if the police ever considered you a suspect at all?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Just because of the gnarly story that you were there, you know.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
There are these reports that you didn't really see Jesse very much before the murders, but then after the murders, you actually did see him more. Like at one point, he comes by Jason's house and asks you to go to Blockbuster with him. Like I said, it's got to be weird that I know all these things.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Just to go ahead and get it out of the way, your opinion is that Damien, Jason, and Jesse are absolutely innocent of this, correct?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So there was a kid named Ken. Ken Watkins is his name. And Ken said that you, Damien, and Jason went to Walmart to play video games that day that you ran into LG Hollingsworth.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
What was your... LG Hollingsworth is a popular alternative suspect. What was your opinion of him?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Do you have any thoughts on who's responsible or is it you have no idea?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
When you say you know for a fact, so for people out there who doubt that, who think maybe they are guilty, what can you say that you think might convince them?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Well look, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk. A few things. Number one, is there anything you want to say? Anything you've just been wanting to say for the last 30 years and you're ready to get it off your chest and tell people what for? Is there anything like that on your mind?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
He's on my list for people to talk to, so we'll see.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
All right, thank you guys for joining us for this special episode. And once again, I want to thank Domini as well. Let me know if you have any questions or thoughts, prosecutorspod at gmail.com. And until then, I will see you in the next episode.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
And I'll back up in a second because I want to get some background. So one of the things that's been said by some people is that Damien would say things, whether just sort of like he's a cocky teenager or whatever. Or the people who said they heard it or just lie that he would say things about how he did it, or he was involved. There's the infamous softball girls.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
You can imagine why. So she hasn't really spoken about this case in more than 30 years, and we were really honored that she would trust us enough to have this conversation. A few things, I'll give you some observations going in of what to expect. Number one, it has been over 30 years. There are a lot of things she doesn't remember. That's not that surprising. I found her to be very credible.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So how old were you when you met Damien? I was 16.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
And am I right to say, it's funny because I look at these cold files and I listen to trial transcripts and I watch the documentaries and There's so many little things that aren't clear from all that. Is your birth name Domini? Yeah. It is. Okay. Because it's been reported some places that you changed your name to Domini.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Is it Domini or were you ever called Dominique? No. No. Okay. Also interesting. It's so funny.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
That's so interesting because yeah, you'll read, I'm trying to remember, see if I have it in my notes actually, what people said your birth name. It's so funny. It's just so funny because people come up with this stuff. That you had changed your name, I guess maybe when Damien changed his name or something.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
so so you guys started dating now so one thing i definitely would like to nail down just i i and and the answer to this question does not i am i know that there was a lot of the sort of satanic panic stuff going on i know that the police and the prosecutors focused on that a lot in the trial that got the crazy expert up there with the mail order doctorate and all that stuff
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
But I will say, reading this stuff, it does seem like Damien was, he was at least into, but they talk about the cult, right? Damien at one point says he was in something called the Order of the Divine Light. Does that ring any bells for you? Okay.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Do you remember guys named Murray Ferris and Chris Littrell?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Murray Ferris. Murray Ferris apparently told the police that he was the head of the Order of Divine Light, which was a cult of white witches.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So do you think he would have just said that? I mean, I don't want to say making stuff up, but like... I don't know.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So I think when she says she doesn't remember something, she's telling the truth. She really doesn't remember it. There's a few interesting insights about the way this case has been reported, her perspective on what exactly was going on in West Memphis, which often clashes with some of the things we've talked about and some of the reports the police made.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Gotcha. There's another report that you told someone, the police or the prosecutors, that you drank blood and it was no big deal because your mother drank blood. Have you ever heard that? No.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
never drank anyone's blood no thank you that's gross that's kind of mean to say to my disabled mother that's kind of rude does your cousin cousin was I guess had edited or was part of some sort of like alternative art magazine out in California about vampires do you remember that
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Hello, everybody, and welcome to this special episode of The Prosecutors. Today, we're going to talk to someone who has been involved in this case from the very beginning, Dominie Teer, who most of you will know as Damien Echols' girlfriend from the first Paradise Lost movie. After that movie, she and her child, Damien's son, pretty much moved on from this case, tried to avoid it.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
I'm going to guess that was like, you know, today, that wouldn't be any big deal at all. You know what I mean?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Did you know Deanne Holcomb, Damien's Ex-girlfriend?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
She's another one who talks about the whole, like, satanic thing, right? She told police that she introduced Damien to sort of the occult side of things.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Right. I guess the long and the short of it is, when you and Damien were together, he wasn't. He wasn't out at the pagan cult meetings, as far as you knew.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
The other thing people say, bring up, is that Damien wanted to sacrifice his child, but decided not to. Have you ever heard that before?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
So I think this will be interesting for you. I hope you enjoy it. And thank you again to Domini for joining us. I just really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about this stuff. To start out, why don't you introduce yourself?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
coming into it so much later because my initial thought was you know satanics whatever you know but then you read the stuff and there's all these people telling police that i was at the coven meeting with damien or i heard damien say he wants to sacrifice his child his dark gods or whatever right why why are you and if you're telling the police this like what is it like are they telling you to tell them this or
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
jerry just to me it was like like that you haven't been telling for some kind of attention meaning reason i don't know so jennifer bearden do you remember jennifer bearden she was a girl in tennessee i think she was 12 or 13. and she was sort of talking to damien on the phone some people refer to as his like other girlfriend or say that she wanted to be his girlfriend i don't seems like based based on the files you didn't like her very much
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Okay. Do you remember any... There's also a girl named Holly George. Do you remember her? Nope.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
You probably wouldn't have had that many interactions with her. Jennifer Bearden...
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
with these people this is also probably this is probably also strange to you that I like I'm telling you things that happened in your life that you don't remember yeah I was like wow this really happened because I don't remember that so Jennifer Bearden is the girl that Damien says he was on the telephone with from about nine between nine and ten until later on in the night the night of the murder so she's part of his alibi and she says no idea
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
she met you once at the lakeshore trailer park like at the lake she was there for some reason and you kind of gave her a mean look or whatever because she was talking to damien you don't recall any of this nope okay no it was a i don't recall any of that no okay
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Jesse Miskelly. Did you know Jesse before all this started?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Was he friends? You know, one of the big debates is, was Jesse and Miss Kelly actually friends with Damien and Jason? In your experience, were they actually friends?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
You know, it's funny. It's funny because you're grandma now, right?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: Domini Teer Speaks
Were you surprised when all this happened that it was Jesse Miskelly, of all people, who was saying that Damien and Jason had done this?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so you can already feel what's about to happen. Many believers think Polybius is not just a game that was popular, maybe caused some problems. They did some market research and then got shut down. No, they believe it was a government experiment to test the effects of the game on the minds of its users. And after MKUltra, this was not exactly unfounded.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
MKUltra, as you may recall, that was the CIA's effort to test the effects of LSD on various people in the United States. So same type of thing, right? Drugs come out, LSD is developed, the CIA thinks, huh, That's interesting. I wonder if we could use that to control people. And they test LSD. And this is fact. This is not some conspiracy. This absolutely happened.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so the theory is that Polybius is the next thing. Video games are invented. The CIA sees how addictive it is, how engaged people are. And they think, I wonder if we could use this technology to control people. And that was the point of Polybius. Now, look, it's hard to say exactly where this came from. We're going to dive into whether this is true.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And if it is true, is it a government experiment? It's hard to say, but you can see how this story grabs people. It has genuine connections to the gaming culture during the 80s. There's just enough detail to pull you in, but enough vagueness that it's hard to check. Because as we said, suburbs of Portland, not even Portland itself.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so you got to wonder, is this the effect of one person on the internet coming up with a really interesting story that's now taken off? Or is it a real conspiracy? One that is going to leave people scratching their heads for years and years to come.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
When Bobby awoke, he was somewhere deep underground, still unable to move, though his restraints were now physical. Suddenly, a badly mangled boy approached him, freeing him from his bonds. And together, the pair fled through the tunnels, and Bobby says he was sure they were being followed.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
By the time they emerged from the tunnels, the boy had vanished, and Bobby found himself deep in a forest, 60-some miles from Portland. When Bobby got home, he tried to tell others what happened to him, but no one believed him. Years later, Bobby now leads walking tours in Portland in the area, recounting his story to those who attend.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And I will tell you, The Polybius Conspiracy is a fantastic podcast. You should go listen to it right now. I am about to spoil it. So, if you're listening live and you don't want to hear the spoilers... Maybe mute your computer. If you're listening, when we release this, maybe fast forward, I don't know, a minute or so. If you don't want the Polybius conspiracy spoiled for you.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So that's what I'm going to tell you to do. Okay. I'll give you a few seconds to do that. So the Polybius conspiracy is fantastic. It is a great conspiracy.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
podcast the problem with it bobby doesn't actually exist he is in fact a character fabricated for the podcast which is a combination of fact and fiction so it is a podcast about polybius and the stories about polybius but in addition to that they have taken sort of that story and crafted it around their own presentation it is amazing though i mean it is so well done
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And if you didn't know it wasn't true, you wouldn't know it wasn't true. Like, go listen to it. It'll blow your mind. And people basically listened to the whole thing, thought the whole thing was true, and then found out later, oh, actually, no, this is just a really well-done piece of mockumentary. Though... Much of it is true.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So they interview all sorts of experts, historians who talk about Polybius. But then this part of the story definitely is not true. So to the extent we have Bobby, we can rule him out as any sort of proof of the existence of Polybius. But Bobby is not the only person who will claim to have been involved with Polybius in some way.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It is interesting, though. You can find it online and read it. It has a few things. You know, you always look for sort of random facts that make you think there might be some veracity. One of them is that this guy is working for Sega. He later works on the Sega CD, which was if you played video games back in the day, they came in cartridges. And the cartridge basically had a motherboard in it.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Yeah, and you know, I'm surprised I've never used electric to describe you before, because you are electric.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You probably all remember having to blow the cartridge out to get the dust off the motherboard so that it would play. The whole game is on the motherboard. And that's the way games played. But cartridges had limitations, memory being a big one. Well, Sega came out with a Sega CD and this was a revolution because for the first time they were going to use CDs for games, not cartridges.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And he apparently worked on this according to him. And he says a lot of things about this that honestly, his work on Sega CD sounds more realistic now. than his work on Polybius. But one thing he says is that there were a few technical aspects of Sega CD where the Polybius code was useful. So they actually used the code from Polybius in Sega CD.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I'm running out of words. I mean... This is like 300 and some episodes.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So according to him, if you access the code from Sega CD, you can find remnants of the Polybius code. Now, I'm not a coder. I'm sure people have tried to do this. But that's sort of an interesting idea that this game sort of lives on in Sega and what Sega has done going forward. So that's one person who talked about this. And so he sort of lays it out as there's this government conspiracy.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Cineslotion is the entity that's involved in this, etc., etc., etc. Well, in response to this, a man named Stephen Roche also posted. And he basically said, that's all BS. And he knows that because he worked on Polybius. So he's a man from the Czech Republic named Stephen Roche. And he claimed in a series of posts from 2006... that he was one of the original programmers of Polybius.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And he asserted that he and several other amateur programmers had founded Sinus Lotion in 1978. And it was a company that worked on component parts for printed circuit boards, and that's what we're basically talking about in the cartridge. So they're doing that as like their main job, but they're using those skills to also do some programming on the side, sort of their creative side of things.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And he says that in 1980, what he describes as a Southern American company, which I think is a company in the United States that's in the South, not like a Brazilian company. A South American. But it's difficult to say. And in fairness to him, he says he's from the Czech Republic and is not a native English speaker. So give him a little bit of a break. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But hey, it's fine. We're doing well. We're doing well. So, yeah. But today, hey, those of you who've been listening to the podcast last few weeks, been doing a lot of West Memphis three and we made a promise to you. that we would, on occasion, do some one-off stuff.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
He says this company reached out to them. Now, he doesn't name the company because he doesn't want to have any sort of liability, but they reach out to this company, Sinislotion, and they want to create an arcade game with a puzzle element that's centered around a new approach to video game graphics.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Now, you might wonder, why would this company reach out to some random group of people in the Czech Republic and which would have been Czechoslovakia, I guess, at the time, to do this, right? And the reason, though, it actually is a reason. This was a cutthroat industry. Everybody was stealing from everybody.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And if you had a good idea, you could bet somebody was going to try and steal it from you. So using the sort of offshore company to do this was actually really smart. Because the chances of those people being involved with your competition, not as great. So that would be one of the reasons they would do this. And they actually offered them a very large sum of money. And they agreed.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And the user goes on to say that they spent countless hours working on this game. And he had a colleague he named Marek Vichusik, who came up with the name Polybius because he had studied Greek before.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
mythology and greek history polybius for those of you who don't know and i don't know why you would was a historian who wrote a book called the histories it wasn't creative with titles right but he's historian and he's a greek historian i'm gonna go to limb and say he probably pronounced his name polybius not polybius but whatever and he's a real person absolutely
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And what's interesting about him is a couple of things. Number one, he invented one of the first ciphers, the Polybius cipher or the Polybius cipher. So he was into cryptography, which is interesting given what we're talking about. He also was a big believer in only reporting something as fact.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
If you had a witness, if you'd either seen it yourself or you had a witness who you had spoken to firsthand who had seen it, this was sort of his standard. I'm not putting it in my histories unless I have someone I can point to who actually saw it firsthand. And that was sort of a principle he laid down, which is a pretty good principle, I guess.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But this was the guy they decided to name the game after him. And he sort of had a similar narrative to ones before that they developed this game and had this very unique visual element. And we'll talk about how that was different from standard games and it very much did exist. And it would cause people to have some side effects. They built this game. They were very proud of it.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
For those of you who binge everything, so maybe you haven't actually been listening to West Memphis 3, or you don't really like West Memphis 3, so this is our gift to you. Polybius. This is a great story if you haven't heard it. You know, we do these every now and then, like the Cosmonauts, That was a good one. The wrong Madonna. That was a good one.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
They thought it would be incredibly successful. It went out for beta testing. And wouldn't you know it, there was a 13-year-old boy who suffered a serious epileptic fit when playing the game, who ended up in the hospital. And there was some really bad press around it. And the company developing the game said, you know what? We don't want anything to do with this.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
We don't want our company to be known as a company that kills kids, even though the kid didn't die. So we're cutting this off. And they pulled it out. And that was the end of Polybius. This was a deep disappointment to the people who developed the game, but they also were afraid that their name was tied to it because on the Polybius screen, it says Cynoslotion as the developer.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so they actually disbanded the company at that point and sort of moved on and regretted how this all went from that point forward. So... Really interesting. Two sides of this. You have one guy who's saying this is absolutely a government conspiracy to have mind control and to take over people and everything else. And you have another guy who says, no, no, no.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
The game, basically, there was a bad thing that happened with it. And so it never made it out of beta testing and we pulled it out and it wasn't mysterious. It's just people thought it was mysterious because of how it disappeared. Two very different stories about how this game came into being.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
This is sort of a modern version of some of those stories. A question about something that you normally associate with fun and having a good time. Could there be a sinister aspect to it? And we're actually taking you all the way back to the dawn of video games, to 1981 for this one. The year of my birth, Alice was but a twinkle in the eye of her parents. when video games were really taking off.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And I wasn't sure if I could even handle this. But that's why Prolon is so amazing, because it's not just fasting. It's fasting mimicking. It's actually giving you food to keep you going through those five days. So you don't feel sluggish. You don't feel slow. In fact, by the end of it, you will feel better than you have ever felt before. I experienced it and you will experience it, too.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Alice, were you a video game fan? Did you play video games growing up?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, and student-to-teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So, when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. Holmes.com. We've done your homework. And let me just say, Ahoy, the documentary, it's like an hour and a half long documentary on YouTube that he did. Awesome. So good. I mean, the production quality on that documentary could have been on Netflix. It was that good.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So if you're hearing the story and you're really interested in it, go to Ahoy, watch the Polybius documentary. Fantastic. So that brings us to the timeline. So here's the thing. There's no mention of the Polybius video game that anybody can find prior to 2000. So if Polybius was something people discussed, either in print or online, there wasn't a lot to find. Now, here's the thing.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Finding anything online from before 2000, really difficult. Before 2000, the internet was the Wild West. It was made up of a few chat rooms, Usenet groups, Yahoo chat, that kind of thing. I mean, most of that stuff's gone. So that doesn't strike me as that significant. In print, recall, if Polybius was a thing, probably not going to be in print. Print media is very limited.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Is that right? Did you not play Duck Hunt? I loved Duck Hunt.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
They're only really talking about actual things, right? So this discussion of whether Polybius exists and what happened and it existed for a month and sort of this whole story wouldn't necessarily appear in print. So not necessarily a big deal, but it does make it difficult to...
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
to nail down the fact that the game originated in 1981 and it does raise very serious concerns when you don't have anything closer in time to when polybius apparently existed for about a month to support it so let's go through the timeline of what we do have so on march 3rd 2000 a page for polybius was created on coinop.org which was a big deal website at the time
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And it was a website that talked about video games and everything else. And it included a description of the game and a screenshot of the title screen. And this screenshot, no one knows where it comes from. And no one's ever been able to identify where it comes from. But this screenshot has become sort of the definitive image of
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
If you're watching this right now, you see the screenshot on your screen. And if you are listening on the podcast, you can Google it later on, it will show up. Basically, this greenish, blobby, polybious name, then copyright 1981, Cineslotion, Inc., credits, zero.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So it looks like if someone took a picture of the screen title, or if they pulled the picture from the circuitry of the game, this is what they would get. So all future references to the game's description seem to come from this initial post. The creation date on this article is August 3rd, 1998. That seems to be a placeholder for all older articles on the site. So it's
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It was the old school Internet. So it's a little unclear exactly when this was created. According to Ahoy, they were able to trace the creation to March 3rd, 2000. So it's at least as old as that. It might have gone back a couple other years. And this is where the story of Polybius seems to have begun.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Right. Yes. The earliest reference to this you can find that you can find. Now, people claim in the 90s there was discussion of Polybius on the sort of, like I said, what the Internet was in the 90s. So these message boards, Usenet groups, all that sort of stuff. You know, I can remember in the old days, you know, you dialed up to the Internet and you could dial up to certain boards. Right.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So if there was like you wanted to talk about a certain video game, there was a telephone number you could call on your computer and you would put it into your modem. It would call that number and it would connect in to that message board. And then you could talk to your friends about TIE fighter or whatever. Right. Like that's what you were doing in the 90s.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Did you know in Duck Hunt that if you plug in the controller to the second player, the second player can control the ducks?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So if those discussions were happening, as some people claim they were, they would be lost. You would not have those. That is just lost media, right? But the fact of the matter is, before 2000, there's no definitive evidence of this story existing. So... February 2003. So basically, you have this coin op story. It's on coin op. And for about three years, nothing happens.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But then there's an article that appeared on good deal games dot com. And it includes a screenshot of the title page, as well as a thanks on the bottom to the article to coin op dot org. So a few years pass. Another article is written. It links back to that coin op article. Then July 28th, 2003, there is another article on insertcredit.com discussing Polybius.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Yeah, like GamePro, man. So I might have been a gamer before. my olden days, right? So in the 90s, I was still in college in 2000, so I was still playing a lot of games. You know, Computer Gaming World was one that I got. GamePro. I even had the Nintendo Power Magazine back in the day. Like, love those things. GamePro was huge. So when this story goes in GamePro, millions of people
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
How nobody plays Monopoly by the rules, and that's why everybody hates Monopoly. That's true. But if you play it by the rules, it actually makes it a lot more fun and go a lot faster. The same thing with Duck Hunt. Like, that would make it so much more fun. It'd be cool if you could shoot the dog more, but...
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
are instantly exposed to it and it starts generating discussion and people start having memories and thoughts and everything else. And they're thinking back to this story. So the fact that it goes to GamePro, massive.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Slashdot was also big. These are all websites that none of you have ever heard of. Really, there's the Internet before Google and there's the Internet after Google. Google just changed the game. I mean, there was Yahoo before that. But Google, I can remember being in school, in college, and people mentioning this Google thing and being like, what? I don't know what that is.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But man, I mean, Google changed it. After Google, the old Internet. Ask Jeeves. Oh, yeah. Ask Jeeves. Exactly. Ask Jeeves. You had all the different all the different browsers you could use. Like I remember on Netscape and like all this stuff anyways. But really, that was like the Wild West, the cool Internet, frankly. And then Google took over and corporatized the whole thing.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Now we have the dead Internet. So that's where we are now. But it really was. Google changed the game.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So real quick on that. If you're in Germany, you're probably like throwing stuff at your computer. These stupid Americans and their stupid words. Sinuslotion. That's not a German word. What are they even talking about? And you're right. You're right, Germans. I give it to you this time. The sinuslotion is not actually a German word.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So sinuslotion is what someone who is not a native German speaker, maybe a Czech person, Maybe an American. If they wanted to say something like mind eraser or sense delete or something like that, and they looked it up, they would get sinna, right? And then, because we all know all German words are just other German words all put together, right? That's how the German language is developed.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You take sinna, you take lotion, you put it together, and now you have mind eraser, right? Well, the problem is that's not actually how German works. So sentence lotion is not a real German word. It is like a German mishmash.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Like if you're German, you might understand what the person is trying to say, but you would also understand that they do not speak idiomatic German if that is the word they're using.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It's a great lead-in to the theories on this. Because the question is, does this game exist? If it does exist, is it a government ploy to take over people's minds? Or is it just a game that maybe caused some issues or whatever? That's the question. What's fascinating about it is if it doesn't exist, then it is just a pure urban legend. It is a story that people came up with.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And it's fascinating to watch this urban legend develop. It's just a sort of societal thing, right? I don't know where the hook hand urban legend came from. The legend that the two people, the guy and the girl, they go out to the lover's lane and they're like making out in the car and the girl hears a scratching sound. She's like, what's that?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
The guy's like, it's nothing because he's more focused on what's going on inside the car than what's going on outside the car. So they sort of start back and there's another scratching sound. And she's like, what is that? He's like, it's nothing. And then another one even louder. And she's like, we got to get out of here. You know, he's mad. He's like, whatever, fine.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so he like throws the car and drive and speeds off and they drive over to the to the Sonic. We'll say the Sonic to get themselves, you know, a diet cherry limeade. And when the car hop rolls up, they scream and drop the limeades all over the place because hanging from handle of the car. is a hook that's been ripped from someone's arm in the story.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
This is going to be a lot of asides in this one. It's like Civilization. I don't know if you ever played Civilization. It's a computer game. You sort of build a civilization, as the name implies. There you go. And so the first Civilization game is revolutionary, an amazing game. Civilization 2, probably still my favorite. I love Civilization 2.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You know, the crazed murder with the hook handed, a scavenger's going to kill him, et cetera, et cetera, right? That's an urban legend. You know, it's a story that... It's to keep you from making out. Exactly. It's to keep you from ending up being like the victims of the Zodiac Killer, right? I mean, murderers on Lover's Lane were real things. They happened.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so we took those stories, those real stories, and we turned them into these great myths, these urban legends that kids told each other. And Alice is right. And just like the wolf in the forest, Little Red Riding Hood, whatever it is, stories we tell ourselves to orient our lives and to protect us from the dangers that are all around us. Right. I don't know where that one came from.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I can't tell you the first time that someone told the story of the hookhand. But if Polybius is an urban legend, you can trace its whole life. And I think that's fascinating. It's life from a post on a website to showing up in a print magazine to having its own Wikipedia page in 2005. And here we are in 2025 talking about it.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Well, you know, and it is amazing. I always think of Slender Man. A lot of you are familiar with Slender Man. Slender Man, which there is a crime about Slender Man. We should probably do it. With Slender Man, there's literally a forum post and the forum was like, you know, post a photograph and tell a story about it.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so this guy had took a photograph of some kids at a playground and put the Slender Man character in the background and wrote like a two sentence description of what was happening in the photograph. And that was one of a thousand photographs that people put up, like Alice was saying.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But that photograph created a fictional character so powerful that people became obsessed by it to the point of killing people or trying to kill people in pursuit of satisfying this entity. So, yeah, I mean, that is that is fascinating. We'll have to do that case later on. It's been in the story recently, but it's the same type thing. Polybius, obviously.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
No one's tried to kill anyone over it, as far as I know. But same type of thing. So who started this legend? Is it true? Well, let's start with someone named Cyber Yogi. So Cyber Yogi, whose real name is Christian Oliver Wendler, is often thought to be the person responsible for creating this urban legend.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But the problem with Civil Games is sort of, I feel like, emblematic of the problem with video games is the technology got better. The games got so complex that that you weren't playing in a couple days or even a couple weeks, and you had to know all this stuff. There's all these different mechanics you have to worry about. It's just too complex.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
He's a German man who one time created a fake variant of the game Phoenix as an April Fool's joke in 2000. So, man after my own heart. So basically, he's somebody who's made up jokes about video games before. He's active in the gaming world, and he was doing things like this at the same time that the story of Polybius first popped up, and he had an interest in obscure video games. But...
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
There's a problem with this theory. As Ahoy points out in his fantastic documentary that you have to watch, why would a native German speaker used botched German to create the Sinneslöschen name? It seems like, if anything, he would have come up with a real German name. That's what he was going to use. Or he would have come up with some English company name. that the name was off on.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And you would think, frankly, if you were creating this and you wanted to make it fictional, it probably would be an English company because you want to tie it into the CIA, right? So the CIA creates some shadowy company and they're the ones who create this. So that's sort of an interesting question. And he had already pulled off one prank that year.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So it seems like it would be a little bit of overkill for him to do both of these in the same year, though maybe he is just prolific. Additionally, he admitted the Phoenix prank because he wanted the glory. Because wouldn't you want the glory? Right? Why wouldn't he do the same about Polybius? And I've got to say, this is the thing that I've never understood.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
If you pulled off something like this, wouldn't you want the world to know it was you? I often think about, I don't know, Alice, if you've ever seen, there was a broadcast, I think out of Chicago. And back in the day, you could like hijack broadcast. And so somebody hijacked the broadcast and did their own film. And they were Max Headroom. Max Headroom, who was like a character from the early 80s.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And they took over the feed of this Chicago television station. You can find it on YouTube. And it's incredible, right, that they managed to do this. But no one ever took credit for it. And I always think I would want people to know I'm the guy who pulled it off, at least after the statute of limitations ran. Right. I'm the guy. I was Max Headroom. And the same thing with Polybius.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
If you're somebody who pulled this off and you're already the kind of person who takes credit for the prank, wouldn't you do that here as well? And then the question is, what is his connection to get the page published on coinop.org? Because that's a really important point. That was the start of this legend. And it wasn't like it is now where you could just post anything.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
This would have been something that would have been controlled by the people who ran coin op and cyber Yogi seems like he has no connection there.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And I feel like in our day, the games were fun, they were hard, but you could play them. You could just sit down and start playing them. You know, you didn't have to read a book.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
to know how to do it that's right so you know though i'll say when the pandemic started i did two things start a podcast with you and i played skyrim for the first time that was life-changing i mean that was i do remember that because i had to like text mrs brett to get you off of it in order for us to record it's like is he around we need to record now and she's like let me go take off his skyrim
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And look, it's hard to say. He has responded to various people who've asked about this. He always says this was a legitimate post. He often says he won't say much about this other than the way the game is described was deliberate. And this has led some people to believe that in the description of the game, in the original article, there is some sort of message.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Maybe through a Polybius cipher or something like that. If that's true, no one has discovered it. So hard to say. So look, maybe it's a hoax. Maybe these people made it up. Or one option is that Polybius maybe doesn't exist as Polybius. But it nevertheless is sort of a natural creation.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It's not so much a deliberate hoax, but rather a collective, almost hallucination created by the confluence of two genuine phenomenon at the time that makes this whole story more believable. One is the effects of the game Tempest. So Tempest debuted in 1981, and it was an absolute revolution.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It was created by Atari, and Tempest was the first game to use Atari's color quadra scan vector display technology, which created a 3D playing field for a Space Invaders type game. Now, to give you sort of an idea about this, So there's raster graphics and there's this vector graphics. Raster graphics basically is what you see on a television, old school television screen. You have pixels, right?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so you use the pixels to create the image and the pixels move and that creates the game. Vector graphics are very different. Vector graphics are like, they're almost like laser based graphics and everything is geometric shapes, straight lines, you know, squares, polygons, that kind of thing. It's not vector graphics, but I'm going to use this as an example for those of you from my generation.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
If you ever played Star Fox. So Star Fox was a Super Nintendo game, and it was completely different from other games because everything was made out of polygons. You're like flying a polygon ship, fighting polygon enemies, and it just looked very different because of that. That was a throwback to this vector-style graphics, and it was unlike anything anybody had ever seen.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
People will tell you that Polybius used both raster and vector graphics, which would be even more of a revolution. It's not a clear... Now, that's possible that you could have both, but people will say that. Hard to say. But nevertheless, Tempest was the first of these big vector display games, and it blew people's minds, literally.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Tempest caused one user to experience their first migraine ever after playing. Another became sick after playing for 28 hours straight. Two more users died of heart failure after trying to beat the record for how long anyone had played the game. And there were reports across the board of various issues that people had from playing Tempest.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It almost, you know, and I get sucked. There are certain games I won't play. Like, I would like to play Skyrim every day, but I don't play it because I know if I did, there'd be no podcast. You know, if I played Starcraft, no podcast. You know, these are games that like I'm playing and I look at the clock and it's four o'clock in the morning and they just take over, take my life over.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So I can't play. But anyways. We're talking about video games. I had an Atari when I was a kid, which was one of the first home entertainment systems. But before that, you actually had to go to the arcade to play video games. In 1979, Pong comes out. It's a big deal. Everybody knows about Pong. And very rapidly...
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So, what is part of the story? That people played the game, they became addicted, and they had these physical manifestations because of it. That's the first thing. Number two. Remember the men in black who were showing up to look at the game? Well, I don't know if Polybius existed, but they existed. Because... At the time, in the early 80s, I mentioned that moral panic.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
The FBI was very interested in arcades. And in fact, federal investigators were launching investigations into arcades across the country, particularly in the Pacific Northwest. They were investigating things like bootleg machines, but in particular, gambling and drug sales. And these were all problems that were known to occur at arcades. So gambling, you can imagine how this would go.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You're gambling on the game. You're gambling on the high score, whatever. The people running the arcade are essentially bookies and they're making money off that. And then they're selling drugs in the back. Like I said, it's kind of like a casino. And who started the casinos in Vegas? The mob. So you have the FBI who's very interested in this. And there were full scale raids of arcade halls.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Owners were sentenced to stiff sentences based on what was happening. The FBI was using these arcade cabinets to install surveillance devices. So you would have seen men in black working on these arcade games if you were there at the right time.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And the Tempest cabinet in particular, because it was bigger and sort of different from your standard raster graphics style arcade games, would have had...
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
there's an explosion of these arcade games and these arcades that you could go to with all your friends and spend all your quarters and play on these massive standup. They called them cabinets. And that was video games before like Nintendo and everything else took over.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
more room to install this kind of equipment so you have these two things coming together and then you have a game called poly play which was happening at the same time the name poly play becomes polybius the idea of the men in black servicing the game and then you have everybody with the seizures and everything else so polybius may not have existed but what polybius described did exist
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I hate this podcast. I'm giving it one star.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I hate it. So here's the thing. You guys, I mean, look, I feel like we're viewed as sort of cold water people. Alice has described it a lot of times, cold water thing. I, though, I'm like, I'm Scully and Mulder put together. Like, I want to believe so badly. I love these stories so much. You do. And I want to believe.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You are Scully and Mulder put together. I want to believe.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But the thing that matters to me more than anything is I want to know what's true. And all the cases we talk about, all these people who think we have some sort of weird agenda, right? Like... We meet in our secret prosecutor meetings in the bowels of like some temple or whatever to discuss how we're going to lie to the world about various cases. Right.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And look, you can disagree with us on anything you want to disagree with us on. But just know when we say we think something, we absolutely think it because that's the whole point. I'm not here to try and convince you of anything. I just want to know what's true. I just want to know, did Polybius exist or not? I want it to exist very much. I want Polybius to have existed.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I want it to have been some massive government conspiracy. I want it to break your mind. I want someone to kidnap me in the middle of the night and take me to a warehouse and say, I'm going to let you play this game because you deserve to be able to be the one person who gets to play it. Then I get to play it and they take me back home. I want that to happen. It is unlikely that's going to happen.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But I will say this, I'm going to make a very weak defense of Polybius. So do I think Polybius existed as a government conspiracy to control people's minds? Probably not. I think that's unlikely. Is it possible there's a kernel of truth in Polybius? Yeah. And I'll give you an example. And I'm going to use Alice because Alice is completely disconnected from the world.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So she definitely will answer this question exactly how I want her to.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So Alice, that answers the question of who's posting on Facebook. So Alice, I have a question for you. Is there a movie?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
called coyote versus acme do you know do you know the coyote and the in the roadrunner and the old acme cartoons is there a movie called coyote versus acme that was supposed to be released in the summer of 2023 that starred will fort john cena and lana condor they cost 72 million dollars to make does this movie exist I have no idea. So here's the thing about Coyote vs. Acme.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Coyote vs. Acme does exist in one way. But at some point, Warner Brothers, for reasons that are controversial, decided not to release it. So it is a movie that was made, that was ready to be released, that had high profile stars. They cost $75 million. Almost three quarters. Yeah. Three quarters of $100 million. Weird way to say that, right? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
real movie they destroyed the movie and they just made it a tax write-off why and that's very controversial right so in 25 years and 50 years you know people may look back and say i saw coyote versus acme and people be like what what did that movie exist now there's plenty of evidence that coyote versus acme did exist and everything that happened i just described Right. But here's the thing.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
The coverage of these things is much greater now than it was in 1981, particularly of a obscure game. There are probably unknown numbers of games that were made as black cabinets that were put in little places around the country that did market testing. And for whatever reason, that second story may not be true.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But the notion of a 13 year old got sick and they decided to pull it, that could have happened or something like it. So I think it's possible that Polybius did exist, that the gameplay did look something like what has been described. I don't think it was super popular because that would have been why it was pulled.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
There wouldn't have been anything nefarious about it, but the kernel of truth there could have grown over time into this story and that we have now. I think that's the best you can do for Polybius, but it's a possibility. And I think it just speaks to something that is fascinating to me about the human condition. 99% of the songs, of the music, of the stories,
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
that have ever been told in human history are lost forever. They'll never be told again. They'll never be heard again. They're just gone. And that fact permeates our society. Now it's a little less true. Like now everything exists somewhere, right? Because we have the cloud and everything else.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And then if you had to beat somebody, you could just like whack them with the sock full of coins. You could do that too. So it would work both ways.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But this notion of things coming into being and then disappearing and only a few people ever experiencing it, never to be experienced again, is real. And I think there's something poignant about that. And maybe that's what we can get out of Polybius, the sort of notion that there have been so many things that have been created that have been lost, and maybe Polybius is one of them.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Because arcades could be kind of rough places if you were into the wrong arcade. And which we're going to talk about today. That comes into play. And like everything else,
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
arcades had a little bit of a moral panic before i say this if you're in birmingham alabama great bar in downtown in birmingham which is a bar in one room and arcade in the other one i can't remember the name of it but if you google that you'll find it fantastic i recommend it go check it out tonight anyway or you know on a friday night you could be one of the 47 people who are listening to us record this there's two different lives people are living right some people at the arcade bar some people are talking about arcades which one has it better i'll let you decide
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Oh, man. No, that's so true. You know, I think about there was a book. It wasn't that good. I didn't like it that much. It was called Zone One. And it was by, I forget his name, but he's like a Pulitzer Prize winning author or something. He decided to slum it and write a horror novel, write a zombie book called Zone One. And it was fine.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But there's one section that actually gets to what you're talking about. It's a zombie book. So there's been a zombie apocalypse. And there's a character who talks about how he doesn't have any pictures of his family because they were all in the cloud. And when the zombie apocalypse happened, the cloud went away and everything disappeared. And so like all this history just vanished.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And that, that stuck with me. Like that was like, wow, that's a deep point. And I feel like it's the same point you're making here. So there you go. Deep thoughts.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
That's beautiful. That's beautiful, Alice. I agree 100%. I hope you guys enjoy this and got the same thing that we did. You know, I always think about the first word of the Iliad is sing. So keep talking. Keep talking to each other. Keep telling these stories. They're worth something. So anyway. Well, we want to hear what you think about this.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
If you played Polybius, shoot us an email at prosecutorspod at gmail.com. Reach out to us on Twitter at prosecutorspod for all of your social media. Join us on the gallery to discuss this and other cases. If you would like to watch us record these episodes, join Patreon for as little as $3. You can do that.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Or if you don't want to watch them, but you want to get them early and ad-free, we do that as well. Want to thank everyone who joined us on this Friday night to record this episode. Well, we've gone a little long, but do you want to do a question? Let's do a question. This is how much we love you guys. When you're listening to this, it will be your second episode.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Polybius is awesome. I'm looking forward to doing this.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Anyway, real quick, we're just going to keep assigning because, well, you know, this is a real episode, though, I promise this is this is not an April Fool's joke.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Okay, so Bella Paul says, in every investigation, you hear someone attest to the value of following the evidence. However, you also hear that they use the concentric circles approach. How are these two approaches not paradoxical? Well, I would say, number one, obviously, if you have the evidence that leads inexorably to the person who did it from the very beginning, great. Just do that. Right.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But I think the idea of the concentric circles approach is if you do not immediately know who did it and you don't have the DNA and the fingerprints or whatever else, that one way to find the evidence that you will follow is you start with the people who are closest to the person because statistics, you follow statistics. Right. And that's what we do in everything.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Your whole life, most of the decisions you make are based on sort of probability, right? That's how you live your life. Investigations are much like that. Probability-wise, if a woman is killed, it is probably her significant other. Doesn't necessarily mean it is, but you start with them, you investigate them, and you see if the evidence leads to them. If it does not, then you move out.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Other people who know them. The least likely person to commit a crime against you is a stranger. So you'll get to that last ring eventually. But I think it's sort of a one is an investigative tool. The other is the principle that should guide all investigations.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So the concentric circles approach is the tool following the evidence is what you should be doing no matter how you're investigating a crime.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And, you know, it's easy to say follow the evidence, right? Because as Alice said, when you're looking back, it's obvious what the evidence was. I mean, remember what you essentially have. It's not you have puzzle pieces and you put them all together and form a picture. It's more like you take two puzzles or three puzzles or four puzzles and you mix them all together.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And then you're trying to find one picture, which means there's a bunch of information that you're looking at that will turn out to be extraneous. There's information that doesn't matter. There are questions that you always have that can never be answered. You know, I think back to Leo Schofield. We looked at the evidence. We think Leo is innocent.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But there are people who can never get past the fact that his father found the body. Like, for them, that is just such a big piece of evidence that it must mean that either his father or he had something to do with it, right? They can't get past it. And to me, that is a coincidence. It is an extraneous piece of evidence. So follow the evidence. It has to be a little bit more...
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Narrow than that, you have to think about each piece of evidence and where it leads. And so I think it's easy, as Alice said, 20-20 hindsight. But at the time when you've just had all those puzzle pieces poured on the table in front of you, figuring out what is relevant and what isn't takes a little bit of thought. And one of the ways to do it can be this sort of concentric thinking.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
way of looking at things or anything else i mean just as you get more information you know what information is relevant what information isn't yeah i had one case once where and i think i made fun of this i don't know if i've told this story but i don't normally tell stories that are like negative about myself so if i've told this story before i'm surprised but i'll tell it again
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So we we had this suspect and we didn't know who it was. And we had all this video of this person. And we're like watching videos from all these different sources of this person who was in disguise traveling through this particular area. And at one point. they disappeared off the video. And based on where they disappeared, like I looked at the map and I was like, oh, I know exactly what they did.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
They followed the train tracks and they went up this way and there was an RV park right there and that's where they were parked. They followed the train tracks to the RV park and they got in their car and we need to get, if we get the video from the RV park, we're going to find the person, you know, and I called up the investigators like, I've got, I figured it out. This is how it works.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And I gave them the whole thing and they're like, Okay, I'd say, we'll look into that, boss. We'll take a look at that. And I was like, no, no, seriously. And the next day, they're like, so, by the way, we found where they went. It wasn't the RV park. But if you want us to look in the RV park, we can. I was like, no, that's fine.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And every time I talked to my investigator, like, you don't want us to pull that video on the RV park? It's the same thing, right? Like that seemed like, based on the evidence I was looking at, this was a really good way to look at the case. Turned out I was wrong. I got more information and it changed my perspective. So same thing. And that's how you have to look at it. Okay, Alice.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Well, I've enjoyed this a lot. I hope you've enjoyed this too. No one I would rather spend my Friday night with than you. Do you have any other things you want to add before we sign off?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And good urban legends like this, I feel like I've heard them all. Like I knew about this. But if you got a good one for me, hit me with it. I love this stuff. So we'll always cover it. All right, guys. Well, we'll be back next week with more on the West Memphis Three. Congratulations to some of you. Sorry to the rest of you. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are The Prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Hello. That were not mine. Sweet children. I hope you're being good for mommy.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Yeah. I told them this was safe for children.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So y'all be good and then go to bed when you're supposed to. I'll come down and see you later.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I'm going to go to a limb and say an arcade game, based on what we're discussing today.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You say it however you want to say it. It's also perpetuated. You keep saying perpetrated as if he's a criminal. Did I say perpetrated?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I keep thinking we're doing criminal. I'm like Bobby Feldstein Feldstein. I can say it fine until I have to say it. Okay.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
A little bit simpler electronics in the back of your arcade game. Your iPhone has more power than spaceships from the 80s. But, yeah, so arcades. One thing about arcades when they started up, like everything else in America, and this does kind of connect to West Memphis 3, I guess, there was a moral panic.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
There was this concern amongst parents and teachers groups and even some politicians that arcades were sort of rotting the brains of children. They were addictive. You know, instead of playing outside or reading a book, kids were playing Space Invaders for hours on end. And the games were just as addictive as any drug. And the other thing that happened in arcades, you got a whole bunch of kids.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
What do you think you're going to have? You had people who were selling drugs. You had people who were suspicious characters who were like scoping out the kids. So arcades were both sort of, you know, if you were a kid, they were this amazing, incredible place like a casino. You walk in a casino. And there's all the flashing lights and there's the sounds and everything else.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And it just makes you, there's something about it. Your dopamine is or serotonin or whatever it is, is pumping through your brain when you hear it. Well, that was what an arcade was like for a kid. You walk in and it's just amazing. But for parents, they saw it very differently. And all of this comes together in this story. We're going to tell today about an arcade game called Polybius.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So Polybius, Now that we've talked for 10 minutes, we'll dive right in. According to some, and maybe according to legend, in October of 1981, a strange new arcade game began appearing around Portland, Oregon. Never in Portland, but in sort of the surrounding suburbs, the malls, that sort of thing. Some people said that it was a black cabinet.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It had no name on the side, no artwork, nothing like that. And that actually wasn't too unusual because as these games were being developed, sometimes they would be market tested and you would put them in places like suburbs of Portland and you hadn't done the artwork yet. You rolled in, you see if the kids like it. If they do, you mass produce it, you send it around the country.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And so a lot of people thought that's what they were seeing. Oh, there's this new game. But when they went up to it. The screen flashes on and it said Polybius in these sort of bright green blocky letters. And the thing is, this is 1981. And even from the beginning, it was unlike anything they had seen. This wasn't simplistic. This was an arcade game that featured this abstract design.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
There were dots and lines accompanied by high-pitched beeps and buzzes. According to some, the game included complex geometric shapes that the user could destroy via a standard sort of remote-controlled spaceship. So the kind of thing you see in Space Invaders. But instead of shooting at aliens, you're shooting at these almost sort of esoteric shapes.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I actually looked up one of the symbols that is described in this, and it's from the Book of Enoch. So there's like all of these sort of unusual designs that you're shooting at, and they had mathematic principles to it, where if you did it in a certain way, you know, the square root of this or the multiple of this, you would advance. It was very unusual, unlike what most people were used to.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It wasn't the standard Space Invaders. It wasn't the standard shoot-em-up type game. And as you're going through it, the designs would begin to morph and change in ways that felt eerie and disorienting, but also addicting.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And the game quickly became the most sought after in the arcade, with teenagers lining up for a chance to play what was a highly addictive machine, sometimes getting into fights over who would get to play it next.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
There you go. Using those socks full of quarters to beat each other down.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
It didn't stop there. This wasn't just the hot new thing. The legend has it that users who played Polybius, they couldn't stop, despite experiencing horrific side effects, including nausea, stress, nightmares. Some even reported experiencing seizures, having suicidal ideations, and difficulty controlling their own thoughts. But they kept going back, and they got better and better at the game.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And that's when the story started to come out that the players who accomplished the highest scores, they didn't get sick. They didn't have bad thoughts. They disappeared. Never to be seen again.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And we are the prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, imagine a video game so addicting that it could drive you insane or even kill you. And when you play it, someone is always watching. This is the story of Polybius. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my electric co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Especially if one of those Brady violations is going to be based...
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
on a note and they talk about this they talk about how they're you know they were drawing this motion it's not supported by law in fact and they say you know there are these two brady allegations and we talked about this in our episode and they talk about the brady standard they talk about the brady standard a lot more than the initial motion to vacate did which talked about almost none of the law for reasons that are now pretty obvious and they say that nothing the mosby team pointed to met the burden
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
The two notes that were allegedly Brady material were both already available to the defense. And to the extent they were relevant to any alternative suspect, those suspects were already known to the defense. And we learn even more about these notes. One of them is like hearsay within hearsay within hearsay. It's an anonymous person.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So he's trying to do that. And that's going on in court. But right before that was... I don't know if I have words to describe it. So years ago, it seems like now. I mean, I guess it was in 2022. It's funny because Alice... And our journey in this case started in 2022 when this vacator motion was filed by Marilyn Mosby in Baltimore to vacate Adnan's conviction to let him out of prison.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
One of the, you know, we talked about, and I'm sorry, if you don't know anything about this case, you're going to be confused this whole time. Go back and listen. You got like 18 episodes to listen to. But we talked about Bilal Ahmed and we talked about his ex-wife. Initially, this is mind-blowing that they let this happen. So initially, like she wouldn't talk to the investigators.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Apparently, Adnan went to her house and like sat down with her at the kitchen table to get... What eventually became an affidavit in support of all this that, you know, he waved around and talked about, I think, in his press conference, his multi-hour press conference he had.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Which, by the way, yesterday in his motion for resentencing, while he's explaining why he shouldn't have to go back to prison, he talked about how he's kept a low profile because, you know, he hasn't engaged in any media because he doesn't want to re-harm people. Heyman Lee's family. And it's like, do you ever stop lying?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I mean, you have been lying for so many years and you lie to our face in ways that are so obvious. You sat there in like the kindergarten room, whatever it is, the daycare and gave. Hours and hours of a press conference where you accused everybody under the sun of being involved in this conspiracy to frame you and took absolutely no responsibility for what you did.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And then you stand in court and you lie to the judge who has your fate in their hands. Just the absolute lack of shame by Adnan Syed and everyone associated with him is astonishing. But that's an aside. I'll get back to the executive summary. They go on to say that the SRT, as Al said, never spoke to Kevin Urich. These are his notes. Half of it is you couldn't read it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
You know how when you take notes and it's in your handwriting, so you're the only one who can read it? This is the situation. They didn't even bother to ask him what it said. And in this summary, it describes this as shocking, and I'll read you what it says. Shockingly, the SRT did not ask Mr. Urich about his handwritten notes.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
They did not ask him to decipher his somewhat illegible handwriting or to interpret his notes otherwise. They did not ask him if he had any independent recollections regarding the notes. Most shockingly, they did not ask him if he withheld the notes from the defense or about his discovery practices in 1999 and 2000.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
When interviewed by this office, Mr. Urich provided substantial information about the notes that differs materially from what is represented in the MV.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Moreover, when the SRT filed the motion to vacate, they did everything in secret. We talked about this. They all talked to the judge. And they played fast and loose with the facts. And they didn't say the names of their suspects. Like, we didn't know who they were. And one of the reasons for that is because everybody knew who Bilal was and Alonzo Sellers.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And in fact, the defense knew about both of them and investigated them. And they knew about this whole theory that is laid bare in this filing, that essentially Adnan was being groomed by Bilal. that he was one of his quote-unquote boyfriends, and that was while Bilal killed Hay because he was jealous of her, which makes no sense because he would have killed her after they broke up.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But, you know, whatever. I guess Nisha and Silver Springs. It's just lucky Bilal didn't know about her. But that's this theory, and perhaps most stupidly of all, you know, in order for there to be a Brady violation... You have to have something that's not turned over.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But the review indicated that the notes had indeed been turned over to the defense, meaning they couldn't have been Brady material at all. In fact...
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
The SRT relied entirely on the fact that the current defense attorney couldn't find them in the file to determine this was a Brady violation, despite the fact the file has passed from person to person over the last 25 years, including the attorney grievance committee, Rabia Chowdhury. I think it lived in her trunk for several years. Susan Simpson, post-conviction attorneys, appellate attorneys.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
and exonerate him later on because of all this injustice against him. And at the time, we had not covered the case. And it was actually this abomination of emotion that set in our coverage of the case. So I'm glad that Marilyn Mosby allowed us to do our 14 episodes on Adnan.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
and current counsel. And there were other documents that should have been in there that everyone knows were turned over. And in fact, documents created by the defense itself that were missing, which indicates that these two pieces of paper not being in the file were not actually Brady violations.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And if emails and comments would be to believe, convince thousands of people who used to believe that Adnan Saad was innocent, that he is actually, in fact, guilty. Absolutely. And that motion had a long and winding path through the courts before it finally was struck down by the Supreme Court of Maryland. And it came back to the Baltimore state attorney's office.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I mean, and I just have to reiterate, this wasn't necessary. The motion to vacate and the DNA actually don't have really anything to do with each other. The DNA... Was what she used later to say, we're not going to recharge him. We're formally exonerating him and all this other stuff. Right. So you could have even left this out when discussing the motion to vacate.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But he wants to correct all of the misinformation. And this is so huge. This stuff makes me mad. And it makes me mad on behalf of all of you, because all of you were misled on such a basic level. You were misled by people that you were supposed to trust, people that had the trust of the state of Baltimore.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
You were misled by podcasters and creators who sold you this lie that Adnan Syed had been exonerated because of DNA. You were misled by the mainstream media in Baltimore, the national press everywhere. Everyone who should have taken a moment to think about this. You didn't need this to know how weak this was. We knew it. We're not brilliant. We're not geniuses.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We don't have some secret knowledge that the rest of the world lacks. But all of these people went along with this to sell you a lie. They lied to you that Adnan Syed is innocent. So you would accept this lie. charade, this fraud. And I just gotta tell you, now Roz, we're in the middle of this. If you are a graduate of Georgetown University, there is a murderer teaching on your campus right now.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And Ivan Bates, who some of you may know from a documentary advocating for Adnan's innocence, where he talked about how he thought Adnan was innocent, had an opportunity to reconsider the motion. And issue a new opinion on that, whether he was going to stand behind it or withdraw it. And oh, my goodness, did he take his obligations seriously?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And if you're giving money to them, or if you have any connection to them, you need to let them know that you don't like the fact that students at Georgetown are being taught by a murderer who is lauded by that campus and lauded by that university as some sort of hero, when in fact all he is is a coward of a man who killed a woman because she didn't want to be with him.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And you should be angry about that, and this should make you even more angry. There is so much anger to go around in this case, and all of this should infuriate you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So in the conclusion of the executive summary, we're going to talk briefly about the 88 pages because there's so much because basically the executive summary lays it out. And then the 88 pages is just all this detail. It's insane. So here's what the summary, the conclusion says.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
As licensed attorneys and officers of the court, this office cannot adopt the false and misleading statements and unsubstantiated conclusions in the MVJ that the state violated its Brady obligations in state versus Syed.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Indeed, as the moving party, this office is compelled to bring the faults and misleading statements to the court's attention, which just goes back to how serious this is, that they have to do this. And I mean, maybe you think Ivan Bates just really wanted to go after not just Marilyn Mosby, but other people who had worked in that office.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
As prosecutors, we are sworn to seek justice and uphold the law. This office approached this case as it does every case, asking the question, how do we get to justice? Based on an exhaustive review, the only answer to that question is, is to withdraw the MVJ and provide an explanation for the decision to the Lee family, Mr. Seid and his family, and the public who may have an interest.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Mr. Seid's case has been the subject of protracted post-trial litigation, all of which has ultimately resulted in the affirmance of the jury's verdict beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty of the murder of Haemin Lee. And let me just read you this next part because it's almost like they listened to our episode and just decided to quote it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
However, properly shifting this burden back to Mr. Syed will reinstill the adversarial nature of proceedings that are the hallmark of the truth-seeking function of our criminal justice system. Amen.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
The Office of the State's Attorney for Baltimore City is hopeful that this decision will give young Lee and the entire Lee family some closure on this protracted process that has caused more grief to the family and will help to restore a sense that justice will prevail in the murder of his sister. Amen, Lee.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
As a final note, Mrs. Mosby represented to the court that this was an open and ongoing investigation, and that was represented to you as well. This office's review of this matter has not revealed that there was ever an open investigation into any purported alternative suspects in the murder of Hayman Lee.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
BPD similarly reported that it did not have an active investigation, and this office will not ask for one to be opened.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And you will have people out there who are defenders of Adnan Syed who will tell you that there's nothing in this filing indicating that Bates thinks he's guilty. That should be the last time you listen to those people. Because they're either willfully ignorant or, once again, they're lying to you. I mean, that paragraph right there, that tells you all you need to know.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Ivan Bates might have thought Adnan Syed was innocent when he was a citizen, but when he got in and saw the evidence, he said, nope. Nope. And he said, I'm not pinning my credibility on this murderer. And he lays it all out in this document. I mean, it is a just tour de force. If you're looking for something to answer all your questions about Adnan Sayed, don't worry about our 14 episodes.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Just read this. Read all 88 pages.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Yeah. And by the time you reach that point, you will have concluded that there was definitely a corrupt prosecutor in this case, but it wasn't the one who prosecuted Adnan Syed. It was the one who then subsequently was convicted of multiple felonies and is a felony at this time. And if she hasn't already lost her license, she should lose it after this.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But we'll just have to see what happens there. Now, as we said, this is a companion to the Juvenile Restoration Act attempt by Adnan Syed to stay out of prison. Ivan Bates has definitively withdrawn this motion. Some people, when he initially withdrew it, were like, well, maybe he just wants to replace it with a different one. No, that's not going to happen. This is done.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
If Adnan Syed's going to have his conviction vacated, it's going to have to be some way out. Now... What's going to happen with the hearing? They had an all day hearing on this. He put on a bunch of witnesses about how wonderful he is. There was very powerful testimony by young Lee and by Heyman Lee's mother. A lot of tears, very moving. The judge was obviously moved by it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
The judge noted that she was going to issue a written order. She did not say what she's going to do. I'll give you my prediction. Number one, I think she didn't say because I think she wants Adnan to suffer a little bit longer. I think she wants him to lay in bed for the next few nights wondering whether or not he's going to have to go back to prison.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I do not think she will send him back to prison, though I will say this. Her comments to him were... She wasn't buying it. She's not like the last judge who was a willing accomplice to the fraud that was being perpetrated on the court. She was very clear that the victim in this case was Heyman Lee, not Adnan Syed. Nevertheless, I don't think she'll send him back. I think he'll stay out.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It's unfortunate that he's never going to admit what he did. I will say this. The one good thing about her releasing him without any conditions is he'll no longer be in custody. which means he no longer has a real legal vehicle to challenge his conviction. The only legal vehicles he would have would be something called a writ of quorum nobis, which is incredibly difficult to succeed in.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I may be one of the only lawyers in the country who's actually litigated that all the way to a federal circuit of appeals. Ended up actually reaching an agreement with the other side and letting it go forward. So it was actually granted. almost never happens. I wish we could tell maybe one day when I lose my job, we can tell that story because the whole case is crazy.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Just an insane case that you guys would love, but there's that, but it almost never succeeds. And the other thing would be if like one day there was actual evidence, like they actually found real DNA of Balal, you know, on hay and were able to definitively prove that, That Adnan was not guilty. Usually in most states, there's some sort of DNA statute.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We're seeing this in the West Memphis three that even that you can pursue, even if you're not in custody to sort of clear your name. So the avenues to clear his quote unquote, clear his name are basically zero if he's released from prison. So I think if.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
things go the way i expect it to he'll be free he'll always claim to be innocent and there will be many many people who believe it's true but he'll also always be a convicted murderer which is important because he is a murderer whether he's convicted or not but i think it's at least some justice to have the state officially recognize what he is
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I would write two opinions, one releasing him and one sending him back to prison for the rest of his life. And I would call him back to court. And I would tell him, I have two opinions written here. One of them releases you without conditions. One of them sends you back to prison for the rest of your life.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
If you would like to go free, you have to stand there and admit what you did and tell us exactly what happened that day. You have 30 minutes to think about it. Come back in here in 30 minutes and you let me know what you're going to do. And if he did not confess, I'd send it back for the rest of his life. That's what I would do. She's probably not going to do that, but I would love to see that.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
The world is not amazing enough for that to happen. So I will take... Alice's middle ground that he has to go back for the time he's been out. I'll take that.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And he apologized to the family at the hearing for what had happened.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Yeah. And look, I mean, if what happens is what I expect to happen and that motion is filed and he's freed but guilty, I don't think we'll ever mention Adnan Saad again. And I hope not to because he's not worth your time. He's not worth any of our time. The only reason we've had to talk about him so much is because of the same reason that Ivan Bates felt compelled to write an 88 page motion.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And look, I think we're going to go through this. I mean, we're not going to go through the whole thing. We're going to give you a summary of this filing. You should read it. There's an executive summary. It's like nine or ten pages long. You should read that. If you care about this case, you should read the 88-page filing. Yeah, it's a legal filing.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
There is value in facing this kind of injustice and calling it what it is. And you know what? I love this podcast. I'm glad we did this podcast. Calling Adnan Syed a murderer and saying that Adnan Syed is guilty is one of the proudest things I've ever done. If that's all we got out of this podcast, it was worth it. And I'm glad that we could be some tiny voice of truth.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But Ivan Bates roared like a lion in this filing. And he deserves all the credit in the world for it. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I mean, we can. Sure. Why not? Let's answer.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
How's little guy doing while we're over here? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
i don't know he's fine he learns his bliss okay let's okay so this is legal briefs right so we gotta do a legal yes question remember you leave a five-star review and leave a question answer your question and there are fewer legal briefs questions than regular questions so you can sort of get right to the front of the line if you do a legal briefs question okay let's see
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I'll ask you this one, but I don't actually have an answer for this. So this is from Kat. Kat wants to know, I'm a nanny and say some pretty funny things to the kiddos. Like if you play on your iPads all day, you'll have a chicken noodle soup brain. What are some weird things you caught yourself saying to your kids?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
The thing about kids is they really challenge your ability to explain things because they're always asking you questions that you don't actually know the answer to. Or that are either so complicated or like sensitive that you don't want to tell them exactly how something happens, right? My daughter is always talking about when I die.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Some of it will be hard for you to understand, but a lot of it won't. A lot of it is just shocking documentation of this fraud on the court. And look... The most annoying thing in the world is when people pat themselves on the back and we would never do that. But I just want to say, if you go back and listen to all of our episodes on this, starting in 2022, we nailed this from the very beginning.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And like what she's going to do when I die and, and how like when she's a hundred, I'll only have a little while left to live and stuff like that. And because she doesn't really understand it. So she's always asking me these questions about like, what happens when you die and like all this other stuff. And it's just like, man.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So I don't know that I have funny things that I'm always saying to him as much as if he recorded me trying to explain complex questions to them, it would be hilarious. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I'm always telling people I'm going to go to the potty. I was like, I got to go to the potty. They're like, oh, okay.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And I'm like, what? Did I tell you the baptism story? Have I told this story? No, no. So we go to church and in my church, we don't, we don't baptize infants. We baptize like adults. Right. So there was a, like a girl in the youth group who was getting baptized. And so, you know, my kids go to Sunday school during the preaching or whatever.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And so they brought all the kids out so they could see it. So they see the whole baptism and everything. And, and after they go out, I go to pick up the kids and my daughter is like on the edge of tears. And she's like, daddy, I don't want you to get baptized. And I was like, baby, what's wrong? And she's like, I'm not ready for you to go to heaven. And I was like,
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
baby she's like baby oh they're not taking madison madison's the name of the girl they're not taking her out back to like put her put her down or anything baby that it's so that one day when you die you'll go to heaven it's not she's gonna go to heaven right now but in her mind she was like she's getting baptized to go to heaven so she's she's gonna die now and it
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It was just the tears on the corner of her eyes. And I was like, I was baptized a long time ago, baby. It's okay.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But that's the thing. With kids, you never know how they're going to take the simplest thing. That's one of the joys of parenting, I guess.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So I just want to get that out of the way. But the other thing I want to say. Before we get started, because I think this is really important because the same grifters, fraudsters and charlatans who always protect Adnan Syed will be out there trying to undermine this as well. It is so important who this is from. I cannot overstate the fact that Ivan Bates.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I love it, Alice. I love it. Thank you. Beautiful. Wonderful. You're the best.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Yeah. Instead of having other investigators on operation trash pandas.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Is in a documentary, an HBO pro Adnan documentary talking about his feeling there was some sort of an injustice here. Number one. Number two, one of Adnan's biggest supporters, Colin from Undisclosed, when Ivan Bates won. I remember this. When he won the nomination to be the state's attorney, tweeted about how exciting it was because Ivan Bates was a supporter of Adnan Syed.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And maybe finally we would have this opportunity for justice. And he was under immense public press, all kinds of pressure to just do it again. Every single mainstream coverage of Adnan Syed is always that he is innocent. That is what they always say. The easiest thing in the world would have been for him just to say, we're going to stand behind the motion to vacate.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We think you should move forward. He could have done that. But instead, he actually looked at the evidence and the record, information he would not necessarily have had back when he was doing that documentary, and produced this document. This document is damning for anybody. remaining belief that Adnan Syed did not commit this crime. It is an astonishing piece of legal work.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And we're going to talk about the trash pandas later, but trash panda that, you know, man, look, we're going to talk a lot about this filing, this most recent filing in the Adnan Zayed case. Those of you who've missed it, Adnan is back in court. before Judge Jennifer Schiffer.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Yeah. And one thing I'll say before I read, I'm going to read his statement. And then we'll get into the executive summary. The other thing I'll say about this, this filing is not even about guilt or innocence. And they even say that it's not about a guilt or innocence. It's about whether or not they can support this motion to vacate.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And legally, that's what they're doing, because theoretically, the judge could deny the motion to vacate. The judge could say, well, you know, I'm gonna leave it. So they even say, look, this isn't about his guilt and innocence. Which makes it even more astonishing that they spend so much time reiterating the strength of the evidence against Adnan Syed. I mean, it is the whole thing is remarkable.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It's amazing. OK, so I'm going to start. I'll read you the statement. Basically, there are three documents. There's Ivan Bates statement. There's an executive summary, and then there's the document itself. We'll spend most of our time on the statement and the executive summary. I wish we could do like five episodes on this document because it really deserves that.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But y'all are just going to have to read the 88 pages for yourself, and you should.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I had a long day yesterday and I was like, man, I got to read this so we can do a podcast on it. And I started reading it and I was just following on Twitter. I was just constantly like, I cannot believe what I'm reading. So you should check it out. OK, so here's his statement.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
The press release after a thorough review of the motion to vacate judgment filed by the previous administration in the case of Adnan Syed. My office has determined that it contains false and misleading statements that undermine the integrity of the judicial process. This is the Maryland state's attorney discussing a filing by his immediate predecessor.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
As prosecutors, our duty is to seek justice and ensure that all legal proceedings are conducted transparently, accurately, and fairly. While I did not ask for this task, it was remanded to my office by the Supreme Court of Maryland.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Thus, we have a duty as Maryland Barred Attorneys, prosecutors tasked with pursuing justice, and officers of the court to address false and misleading statements in the state's legal filings, a duty that we take extremely seriously."
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
as such we cannot adopt the falsehoods and misleading statements in the motion to vacate judgment nor fail to bring them to the court's attention for these reasons i formally withdraw the motion to vacate judgment i did not make this decision lightly but it is necessary to preserve the credibility of our office and maintain public trust in the justice system.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
My administration remains fully committed to reviewing cases where wrongful convictions or miscarriages of justice may have occurred. However, we will do so with the highest standards of integrity and a commitment to truth. I recognize the complexity and sensitivity of this case. I hope this comprehensive review and my ultimate decision brings closure to all parties involved.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
He's now seeking to have his, actually his stay out of prison continue because under the Juvenile Restoration Act or something, I forget exactly what it's called, but it's a Baltimore law that essentially says if you were sentenced to life in prison or a very long prison term back in the 90s when we were so uneducated and barbaric that we would do that to people who were not 18 when they were sentenced, you can seek to have your sentence reduced.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
This is not someone saying this in the press. It's not us saying in a podcast. It's not a YouTuber just throwing out barbs. This is the elected chief prosecutor for Baltimore accusing former attorneys in his office of lying to the court.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
which is one of the most serious accusations you can make against an attorney, the kind of accusation that can result in you having your bar license suspended and, frankly, could even land you in jail in the right circumstances. Probably not this one, but this one could definitely have you facing consequences from the bar.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So she's got more than enough to do that. She's got twice as much as you would need to make you fall asleep. and that doesn't include the amount in her stomach, 0.5 grams, is considered a toxic amount of quaaludes. So the fact that she's got so much in her stomach and in her blood, now this is a lot, right? I mean, she's pretty close to having a toxic dose.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And in fact, if what was in her stomach had entered her blood, maybe she does have a toxic dose. Now she had been on it a while, it's gonna build up some tolerance. So obviously it's gonna affect you a little differently, but this is a lot. This is a lot of quaaludes in her body. She also had a blood alcohol level of around 0.02.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
This is not a ton of alcohol, and in fact, it's low enough it could be an error in testing. But we know that when she was at this event, there was no alcohol. She was drinking iced tea. No one at the union meeting had alcohol. There was no alcohol present, and there was no alcohol nearby. There was nowhere to get alcohol. I don't know what's going on here.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Like I said, possible that this is just a mistake. And while if she did have a little bit of alcohol in her system, that would have exacerbated the effect of the Quaaludes, but she didn't have a prescription for it. She wasn't abusing these. but it's a pretty low amount. I think it's probably an error, frankly. People have been trying to figure it out for a long time.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think it's probably just an error. She was not wearing a seatbelt, which contributed to her death, though we just put a picture of the car on the screen for people who are watching it. This is a terrible accident. I mean, essentially the entire front part of this car is pushed into the driver's compartment. She would not have survived this. It didn't really matter if she was wearing a seatbelt.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
In fact, in some strange way, if she'd been thrown from the car, she might have had more of a chance to survive than being in that car when she had that impact. So her autopsy revealed that she did have, and this is probably no surprise given what we have learned so far, dangerously high levels of plutonium really throughout her system.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
In her lungs, in her blood, everywhere, she has plutonium all through her.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Thankfully, Chernobyl happened.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I don't know if we're going to say that's thankful or not. But so Chernobyl gave us a lot of information on the effect of radiation on the body. And as well as a few accidents that happened beforehand, the demon core that we mentioned before. And the thing that is terrifying about radiation, number one, the long term effect of plutonium is cancer.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
You know, if you have plutonium in your system, if you're exposed to radiation, you're much more likely to have cancer later on in your life. Though, one thing that's interesting, if you've listened to Radioactive, which is the ABC special, They they totally go in that this is a conspiracy. That is their position. And I respect them for laying that out from the beginning.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But also say they did a lot of investigation, which revealed some stuff that cuts against their theory. One of those was they talked to an expert at the time. It was actually believed that Plutonium was much more dangerous. It's very dangerous, but much more dangerous now.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
than even it is that the cancer risk was much higher and in fact the amount of exposure she had had probably would have only had a moderate increase in her cancer risk acute radiation sickness which she did not have and she was not exposed to enough radiation to have it is terrifying because once you are exposed to a fatal dose of radiation you are dead
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Your body hasn't caught up to the fact yet, but you are dead. You don't know it. You feel fine. There's no sort of mental effects, nothing like that. But what has essentially happened is your bone marrow is dead and you can no longer reproduce anything.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
cells so your body almost rots around you while you're still alive and death is horrific it's a terrible way to die your skin just sort of sloughs off you bleed out it's awful but a plus is at least you know your mind remains perfectly fine to experience all this so in short
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
The effect on her physically, mentally would have been negligible to the extent anything's going on with her causing her to be drowsy, for instance, or to have this this accident or maybe to be experiencing some paranoia, whether justified or not, would not have been caused by the plutonium.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
In fact, Gab's phones and watches are built with smart filtration that proactively blocks harmful content Before ever reaching your child. Like Alice, I have young kids, my daughter this Christmas, she said, daddy, can I get one of those watches that does everything? And I knew exactly what she was talking about. And frankly, my thought was, no, there's no way you can.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But that's the great thing about Gab is it makes these products, including watches that do everything and that don't do everything. And that certainly don't allow your kids to access all the things you don't want them to see. Protecting your kids has never been easier. For the best deals, sign up to Gab today. No contract required at Gab.com slash prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
That's Gab, G-A-B-B dot com slash prosecutors. Gab.com slash prosecutors. Terms and conditions apply.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Okay, so November 20th, 1974, the OCAW, which is the Union, files a complaint with the Washington, D.C. Office of the United States Justice Department demanding that there be an investigation into what they call a bizarre plutonium contamination and the violent death of Karen Silkwood. So they are all in. They think... Whatever happened, there needs to be an investigation. And they get one.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I got to say, maybe you guys are all hating these cases, but I feel like this case and Aconcagua are some of the best we've done. I've really enjoyed them, and I've really enjoyed this one, and you're right. I love this kind of story where you have this mystery and a viable conspiracy, and I just love it. I love doing this kind of stuff.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
November 21st, the FBI begins to investigate the potential wrongdoings of Kerr McGee against Karen Silkwood. And as I said, you can now access that FBI report and read it. It's very interesting. So now we're in December of 1974. So about a month after Karen had taken... The test, remember, she had all those tests about the level of plutonium.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Remember, she had done those samples, the urine samples, the fecal samples. She'd actually spilled some of the urine sample, which was the theory about how her apartment was so contaminated because essentially she had plutonium all throughout her body. She takes a urine sample. She spills the urine. The urine has plutonium in it. Now plutonium is all over the bathroom.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It then gets transferred all over the apartment. So she had turned those samples in. It takes a while to do that kind of work to find out exactly what those results are going to be. So in December, they get the results back. They're the results from the urine and fecal samples, and they are astonishing, stunning to anyone who sees them.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They are extremely contaminated, so much so that looking at the sample, you could see the plutonium with the naked eye in these samples. Now, it was difficult, if not impossible, to imagine how this level of plutonium could have passed through Karen's body, which led to a conclusion which no one could really explain, and that's that Karen's test had been salted.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So, essentially, someone had added plutonium that had not passed through her body to the test. And the question was, who would have done that? Did Karen sort of spike her own kits to try and expose Kerr-McGee? Did someone within the company spike them to try and scare Karen into quitting or to intimidate her? Was it someone else altogether? Karen's urine was also found to contain uranium-205.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Now, why is this weird? Well, so there are lots of different isotopes of uranium. There's a lot of different isotopes of plutonium, and they're used for different functions. Uranium-205 was an isotope that was not associated with any of the work that Karen was doing at the facility.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So there didn't seem to be any way she could have come into contact with uranium-205, which only led to more speculation that this was an intentional act, that either someone had contaminated her or had contaminated the test on purpose.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Now let me say this, we have described this the way it is always described in coverage of this case. This is not true. It was something you could say back in the 80s and 90s and it sounded spooky, right? But now that we have the file, you can read the file. They absolutely investigated this. And whether you think they came to the right conclusion or not, you can read the file.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
You can read all the people they talked to. You can read the accident recreationist. I don't know if that's what we call them, reconstructionist. You can read all the various things they did. You can read the files between the U.S. attorney and the FBI. Whether or not you agree with them, it is not the case that the FBI talked to somebody at Kerr-McGee and then closed the file.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
In fact, they talked to a lot of people that Karen knew. In fact, a lot of the things we have mentioned come from the file, including interviews with people who were at that meeting that night and their description of her are in that file. Whenever we do these cases, we have a website, prosecutorspodcast.com.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Yeah, if I die under mysterious circumstances, I want a world-class, famous actor to play me. Just like Karen Silkwood. If you want to watch the movie, it's called Silkwood. The movie has Cher in it. The roommate got played by Cher. She was just the roommate. She wasn't even Karen. I know. That's pretty awesome. Yeah. So, you know, it's funny.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I know a lot of you never go there, but we always put a lot of the links to the various things that we used as research for these cases. And one of them we will link to is the FBI file. Go read it. It's several hundred pages, but it's not an incredibly long file. And you can learn something. It looks just like the files we still get from the FBI for our cases.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So it's worth reading and it's worth checking out.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And I just want to raise one other possibility. We're going to talk about theories, but I don't think we have this as a theory, and it's not something I've ever heard anybody mention. But the presumption is always that Kerr McGee is the one who killed Karen. I think people should consider the fact that if she were murdered, it could have been a coworker.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Because not everyone would have agreed with what she was doing. And a lot of people would have seen the danger of what she was doing that would result in exactly this. The closing of the site, the loss of good jobs. Plenty of people working at that site didn't like the union. And you could imagine that she would draw a lot of attention from those people.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So something to think about when you're thinking through the case.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And this was obviously a really big deal. It was a case that was followed nationally. There was a lot of reporting on it. It was something that people were really into for all the reasons you could imagine. And it was a blockbuster trial. And when it ended in 1979, the jury found Kerr-McGee liable.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And they actually awarded the estate, Karen's estate, $10.5 million, which was a lot of money in 1979 for personal injury and punitive damages. Now, what's interesting about this is. there were a lot of different charges leveled against Kerr-McGee. Kerr-McGee survived all of what you might consider the conspiratorial aspects of this.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But what they didn't survive was the fact that plutonium got off of that property. The fact that plutonium was found at Karen's apartment and in her body was frankly enough, under the sort of the statutes and the way torts work, The fact that Kerr McGee had not they had a duty as a company that produces kind of material to keep that material out of the public and on the property.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And we've talked about this a little bit in the last episode. This case and this story was so famous in the 70s and 80s. And it just goes to show how sort of the zeitgeist moves on. Right. Like I bet in 1982, if you'd have said the name Karen Silkwood, everybody would have known who you were talking about.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And they had failed at that duty. However, it happened. Whatever you think happened, they had failed. As we talked about, they had no security in this place. You could have walked out with a bag full of plutonium if you wanted to. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But now I'm sure most of you listening to this, maybe not most of you, but a good number of you have never heard of this case. I had not heard of this case.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
until we started covering it and i consider myself pretty well versed in the world of conspiracies so this has been exciting for me hopefully this is everybody out there listening is not like what are you talking about everybody knows this story you losers but it's it's a good one and i hope you guys are enjoying it as much as we are
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Air Doctor comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee plus a three-year warranty and $84 value, free. Get this exclusive podcast-only offer now at airdoctorpro.com. A-I-R-D-O-C-T-O-R-P-R-O dot com. Using promo code PROSECUTORS. Okay, so I think that brings us to our theories of the case. And I'll go ahead and start.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So I think, obviously, at first glance, the Occam's razor theory here is this was an accident. She fell asleep, she got in a wreck, she died. That's not what I actually think happened. And I want to go through sort of why that is and sort of walk you through my own theory of what happened here. First of all, let's look at the evidence both for she was awake and murdered and she fell asleep.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Because what is striking about this case is how much evidence there is for both. And how do we reconcile that? So let's start with awake and murdered. So there was a small amount of damage to the bumper. The bumper was damaged and that was indicative, many people thought, of someone struck her in the back and forced her off the road to her death.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Now, as we said earlier, there was no evidence on the ground of breaking. So remember, she goes from the right lane across the left lane into the grass and the mud, and she drives for the length of a football field before striking the culvert. So she is driving for quite a period of time on the grass. So you don't see a lot of evidence of braking.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And it seemed like that the car hit the culvert at less than highway speed. So the no braking might be an argument for, oh, she was asleep because she didn't brake. But when you look at how the accident happened, it seems like she wasn't going at highway speed when she struck it.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And the only way that she could have been going about 20 miles less than highway speed was if she did hit the brakes at some point, which would indicate that she was awake before this happened. As we said earlier, she had these injuries to her arm and the way the steering wheel was damaged that indicated that she was awake and bracing when she hit the culvert.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Generally speaking, if you fall asleep, you tend to go to the right. So imagine the average person. I don't know whether she was left handed or right handed. Most people are right handed. You're right hand dominant. If you fall asleep, typically the last thing you do is you're falling asleep is you fall to the right and you jerk the car to the right and your car goes off the right.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
That's typically what happens when someone falls asleep in a car. Obviously, if you're left handed, it might be different. Like I said, I don't know if she was left handed, but typically you see someone go to the right.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But the other thing that's interesting about this is because of the way this accident happened, you would expect that if she had gone to sleep, given where this was, and you would have to look to see this, but this is what investigators say, that if she had just fallen asleep and drifted off the road, even if she went to the left, even if she went over the left lane, she would have gone into the grass and missed the culvert.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
She would have just drifted off into the culvert. Eventually, you know, she would have ran into something else or she would have woken up. The other thing that's interesting about this going to the left thing, most roads are built such that there is a rise in the middle of them, even if it's slight, because the rain then washes off the road, right? Right.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Well, once again, if you go to sleep, you would think the most natural thing would be to go to the right because you're going downhill. So this is all an indication that she was awake. Something happened. She wasn't asleep. There was something else going on here. Moreover, there was no attempt to move the car off a straight line. It did just that.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It went in a straight line, which indicated the car was under some sort of control. Right. Like you would think if she was asleep, you know, the car would have gone sort of like whatever way it would have gone. It wouldn't just gone straight into this culvert. And there was another sign of control.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
At the very last moment, the car turned to the right, indicating that someone was in control of the vehicle at at least the last minute. And the papers that she intended to give to The New York Times were missing. And the papers that were in the car weren't muddy, which is unusual because witnesses would testify there was a lot of mud on the ground.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And look, I think it's funny how this case, there's the legend of this case and there's the reality. I think it's probably true that Kerr McGee was searching her apartment, but I think they were searching her apartment still trying to figure out how this happened. It is likely almost certain.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
and that they had seen some papers on the ground and a police officer had actually picked those up and put them back in the car and they would have thought they would have been muddy, but the papers they eventually found weren't muddy. So these are all sort of indications of something weird going on here. And that's a lot, right?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I mean, that's a lot of evidence that she's awake when this happens, which would indicate that she was hit from behind. But let's look at the evidence she fell asleep. So she didn't have a large amount of quaaludes in her body, far more than necessary to cause severe drowsiness in most people. And in fact,
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
A lot in her stomach that was undigested, which indicates that she had been taking them shortly before her death. To the extent that if that had been digested, the level in her blood might have even been at toxic levels. That's a lot. and the kind of thing that would make you think maybe someone could fall asleep. She hadn't been sleeping. That's why she was on the Quaaludes.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
She was incredibly stressed out. She was incredibly paranoid and concerned. She couldn't go to sleep. That's why she'd been given the Quaaludes in the first place, which means she was in a pretty bad place physically and mentally when she was in that car. The people at the meeting had been concerned that she was not fit to drive.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
In fact, they had offered to drive her home because they were so worried about her. There are no skid marks on the road. You hear that there were skid marks sometimes. That appears to be a rumor. Everyone, the witnesses, the highway patrol, the FBI, even people who think that something mysterious happened to her, the New York Times reporter, They just don't report these skid marks.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So it just doesn't seem like there are skid marks. Now, why is that important? Someone hits you from behind. They force you off the road. You slam on the brakes. You're suddenly moved off your straight line to go to the left. There's going to be skid marks. You're going to leave something behind and there's nothing there.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And as we said, there's no evidence of heavy braking once the car went off the road. Now, this can go either way, as we said earlier. But think about it. If you had just been hit from behind and forced off the road, what are you going to do? You're going to slam on the brakes. And so you would expect to see a bunch of torn up ground as you're slamming on the brakes to try and stop.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
and there was no attempt to move that car off a straight line after it went off the road you would think if someone had hit you from behind you would be spinning the wheel you would be turning you would be losing control once again you would see all this evidence so this is all evidence that she fell asleep and the problem with all this is it's so contradictory you see this evidence that she was awake you see this evidence that she was asleep and how do you reconcile this
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And in fact, even people who think there's something conspiratorial about her death believe that Kerr-McGee didn't really know about the documents. Because if they had had reason to suspect that, they could have fired her pretty easily. And that would have been the natural thing to do. So it's probably unlikely that Kerr-McGee was aware of this at the time.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Well, I think you reconcile it the same way you reconcile the unusual aspects about her radiation poisoning. How is it possible that she could have those levels of radiation when she wasn't contaminated when she left the plant, when there's no evidence of contamination in the places she worked?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
When you see radiation from isotopes that weren't even in the area she was working and you see them in her apartment when her roommate and her boyfriend, who were both at the apartment, didn't have any radiation. And then you see the salted samples that come back, plutonium that could not have gone through her body. And you think, how is this possible? And you might say, well, Kerr-McGee.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They're trying to scare her. They're trying to freak her out. They're trying to make her think she's contaminated. That makes no sense. The last thing Kerr-McGee would want is an employee with that level of plutonium in their body because it confirms everything Karen had been saying. The thing that makes the most sense about the plutonium contamination is that Karen did it to herself.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
That she thought the one way I can prove this is happening is to do this, to salt my own samples, to show exactly what's going on here. And when she did that, Kerr-McGee immediately knew what was going on and they confronted her about it. And after they confronted her, she called The New York Times and said, hey, I'm ready to meet with you. I have all the documents.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And Karen, who was under immense pressure, who was a low level employee who probably could not have gotten these documents, even if she wanted to. There was only one thing she could do. And I think this was an intentional accident, but it wasn't someone else who did it. It was Karen. I think Karen chose to drive off the road that night into the culvert. I think this is essentially a suicide.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think it is a similar case to the one we talked about with the lawyer from Guatemala, Rodrigo Marzano. Someone who was so passionate and believed so deeply in what they were doing that eventually they would take their own life.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think the only way you can reconcile what happened to Karen, the fact that she's under control when she drives off that road, the fact that she drives over a football field in a straight line towards a culvert, only turning at the last moment, bracing herself against the steering wheel. before she is in a wreck indicates to me that this was intentional. I don't think she had any documents.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I don't think she could prove this. I think the only way out for her at that point was to do something like this. So never seen that theory before. It's going to be controversial, but that's what I think happened. I think at the end of the day, Karen took her own life.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They're probably in her apartment looking for the source of the radiation. But you can see how as this story goes and given her mysterious death, people look back on things that happened and they see it as part of the conspiracy. Now, maybe it is. If you think there's a conspiracy here, then maybe they were doing that.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But you can also see how that part of the story could develop naturally from everything that's happening.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
No, look, I think she was absolutely committed to the cause and she believed in it. And I think she totally thought that Kerr-McGee was cutting corners and they may very well have. This is not a defense of Kerr-McGee. And she was probably very worried about her coworkers and their health. And she thought they were being exposed to things. And she talked about that.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And they had already gone to Washington with all these concerns. And Washington tells them, we need some documentation. You're going to have to get something from the company to prove this. And just think about this. This is something nobody ever asks. How exactly would she have done that? She's a low level person. It's not like she's an executive.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
She's not even the kind of low level person like a secretary or something who might be able to get it. How is she going to get this? And she's the one tasked with doing it. She's the one with all the pressure on her to somehow produce this evidence.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
guys i don't know about you but this was a cold winter and i gotta tell you the one thing that warmed me up was a nice bottle of wine problem is i don't know anything about wine i know it comes in a bottle i know some of it's white i know some of it's red and that's about it But that's why I am a member of First Leaf.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
With First Leaf, not only do I get to enjoy personalized wine just for me, but I get to have fantastic bottles on hand to share with friends and family. And First Leaf is great at picking out wines based on my preferences. You fill out this little survey, you tell them how adventurous you want to be. and they are going to send you wines you are going to enjoy.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And that includes special occasion wines like sparkling wines. And getting started with First Leaf is a breeze. You answer those few quick questions about your wine preferences. They put together an amazing assortment of top-notch wines. It comes to you, and then you get to rate the ones you like so that every time you get a shipment of First Leaf wine, it's better every single time.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And think about the samples. Kerr-McGee was always pretty convinced that she had contaminated herself when she went home because she had no contamination when she left. And then all of a sudden her apartment's contaminated. So they thought she'd stolen some plutonium because of their lax security procedures and done this. Think about the samples themselves.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
okay maybe you think now that's ridiculous they were poisoning her for some reason okay fine they were poisoning her but think about the samples who would salt samples with so much plutonium that you could see it someone who doesn't really understand plutonium would do that The Kerr-McGee people, the experts, the people in the lab, they immediately recognized that's ridiculous. You can't do that.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
That's absurd. That didn't go through her system. Somebody did that. They put it in there. Who would have done that? She would not have necessarily known that. That's the kind of thing you do when you don't really understand plutonium. It's not the way, if you're Kerr-McGee in this sophisticated conspiracy, that you would do this.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
You wouldn't even bother to do that because you've already contaminated her, right? Like you've accomplished your mission. You wouldn't do that. You would understand that's not a mistake you would make if you're Kermagee. But the mistake was made. So somebody did that. Somebody did something that was so obviously false that they knew immediately it was false and reported that it was false.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I mean, Kermagee didn't say, wow. You know, it's hard to even imagine why Kerr-McGee would do this since they're trying to prove that they're safe. But assume they did it on purpose. They didn't say, man, she must have really been incompetent because only somebody who really didn't know what they were doing would have so much plutonium in their system. You can literally see it in their samples.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They didn't say that. They said, this is absurd. Somebody salted these samples. Somebody tampered with these samples. There's no way this is what you would get. You have to explain that if you think that Karen wasn't attempting to sort of put some weight on the scales to prove to everyone that Kermagee was truly incompetent in how they were protecting workers.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And then there's the Quaaludes. So, you know, people try and argue away the Quaaludes, like I said earlier, maybe she's built up a tolerance so she can take more. Why would she be taking Quaaludes right before getting on the road? She took the Quaaludes so she could sleep because she couldn't sleep. She now has to drive to Oklahoma City. Quaaludes are not uppers.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
You know, she's not taking meth and having some bizarre reaction to it. Before she died, very soon before she died, she took a large number of Quaaludes, enough that there were still Quaaludes in her stomach that was undissolved, that was undigested.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
That seems like the kind of thing you would do if you're planning on doing something like running your car into a culvert and you're essentially numbing yourself to that fact.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And the last thing I'll say about this, I talked about this a little bit earlier, but I want to emphasize it. You don't drive 100 yards in a straight line with no braking if you've been hit from behind. That's not what you're going to do. And it doesn't seem like the kind of thing you do if you're asleep either. And there's that last minute turn of the wheel.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Now, it's possible that she somehow slept through everything up to that point. She wakes up, she turns the wheel. But I think the more likely thing is what you often see. It doesn't matter if you're intending to kill yourself. The last minute when the wall is right there, you're just going to react. And it seems like the kind of thing where someone's driving in a straight line.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They're not hitting the brakes. They're intending to hit the wall. And then right before they get to the wall, they brace themselves. They turn the wheel at the last minute. Too late to save anything, but it's just a natural human reaction. So that's what I think happened. I don't think it'll ever be proven. I don't think it ever can be proven.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
One thing I'll say, if you listen to the Radioactive podcast, they never even consider this. But if you listen to the last episode, they have an accident reconstructionist who has the bumper. And listen to that episode. It is completely mysterious if you're not thinking about this theory. Listen to the episode with this theory. And I think it will all fit for you.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
The damage on the back of the bumper almost certainly was either caused by her prior accident or by the tow truck. The individual who really wanted to give the answer everybody wanted. He had worked before with the accident reconstructionists from the 70s who really believed this was some sort of intentional, someone had caused this to happen. He was good friends with him, considered him a mentor.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
He's a leading accident reconstructionist. He was the guy they wanted to do this because they trusted him. He said the damage on the bumper, it was impossible that that came from a car. It was not significant enough to do anything. And where it's positioned, there is no vehicle that was on the road at the time that if it ran into that car from behind would have done that kind of damage.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It just wasn't possible. There wasn't a car low enough for it. So he's trying to explain what happened and he says a lot of the things we said and it's just completely mysterious for everybody. Like they can't really figure out how is this even possible? The only thing that ties it all together in my view is if it was intentional. I just don't think she fell asleep.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think she was in control of that car and I don't think anybody hit her. And that's where the evidence leads. And I don't want this to be some sort of indictment on her because I really believe that she was doing this from a good place.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Like I said, it reminds me of the gentleman in Guatemala who was trying to bring down this massive corruption he saw in his own country and was willing to give his own life to do it and thought that was the only way to make it happen. And I think she was in that position. She was the only person doing this. The union was in trouble.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
The company seemed like it had the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in its pocket and the senators in its pocket. There was nothing. Everything rested on her shoulders. And in many ways, what she did succeeded. She wanted to close that plant down. She said that. And she did.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So, you know, you can judge that for yourself, but I don't want to come off as some sort of criticism of her or defense of Kerr-McGee. It's not. I just think when you look at all the evidence and you put it together, suicide, I think, is the most likely solution.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And this is a really important point in the timeline. It also points to a contradiction in the timeline. Last episode, we told you that there is a report that on November 1st, she had had this conversation with Oka and said, hey, I got the documents. I'm ready to talk to the New York Times. That was 11 days before this. That report is a solo report from one source.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Most of the reports that I've read, including in the FBI file, which we'll link to and you should read if you get the opportunity, it was released pursuant to a public records request, a FOIA request. It has a lot of information in it. And frankly, I think most people don't ever read.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
When you hear people discuss this case, and I'm really talking about the FBI file, so I would advise you to check it out. Most of the information is that this is when the call happens, November 12th. This is when she says, I've got the documents, I'm ready to turn them over.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It doesn't really make sense that if she had all the documents that we would have waited 11 days over a week, given how serious this is, given the danger she considers herself to be under. It doesn't really make sense that she would have had them all back in November 1st. So I think that one source, is probably inaccurate.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So I think this is really when the event happens, when she says to the union, I have the documents. I'm ready to turn them over. I'm ready to go public. And this is the day before everything is going to happen. So you can see how this conspiracy can now really be in motion. She has made an outsider aware of what she has, and then she's ready to go forward.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And then we're going to go to November 13th. So on November 13th, Karen returns to work. Now, she is reassigned to a different portion of the plant with different duties so as to no longer do radiation work. She's been contaminated multiple times. She's gone off to Los Alamos. She has a pretty heavy plutonium contamination, so they're trying to keep her away from that.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And she participates in some union negotiations. There's a union negotiation setting that day. She meets with the AEC inspectors concerning her own contamination because the fact that she is contaminated, whatever you think Kermagee is doing, they can't cover this up. The fact that she's contaminated means there's going to be an inspection. There's going to be an investigation.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
The Atomic Energy Commission is now there at Kermagee looking in to what happened. So at 530, and this is after work, Karen meets with OCAW members, the Hub Cafe in Crescent City, Oklahoma, and she's debriefing them on earlier negotiating sessions. Remember, the situation with the union is precarious. They're also negotiating a new contract. The union has just survived a no confidence vote.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It's a very difficult situation for the union. While she's there, she drinks iced tea and she gives a brief presentation. Several people at the meeting recalled that Karen had a manila folder that had documents in it. Some describe them as Kerr-McGee documents. Others describe them as notes she has taken, notes in a notebook, that sort of thing.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
The speculation is that whatever was in that folder is what she was intending to bring to Burnham, who was the New York Times reporter, later that evening. Now, whatever the case, she was very emotional. Some attendees said she was crying. Some of them said that she seemed like she was in no condition to drive. She told one person who was there that she had gotten enough contamination to kill her.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And in fact, she said, someone is trying to kill me. That's what she said to people who were at this meeting.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we conclude our look at the Karen Silkwood case. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined, as always, by my irradiated co-host, Alice.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And obviously, I think you can already see the conspiracy starts to form, right? So she had these documents with her. She gets into an accident and now the documents are gone. There are scratches on the back of her bumper. So the theory is someone followed her. They hit her in the back of the bumper. They forced her to crash. She crashed and died. They took the opportunity to remove the documents.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They then left and you have a one car accident and a tragic fatality. That is the story that a lot of people have believed, and that has driven this whole case since her death. So November 14th, there's an autopsy performed at University Hospital in Oklahoma City, and blood tests are done, and they reveal some interesting things. So she had 0.35 milligrams of methylqualone, which is Quaaludes,
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
per 100 milliliters of blood at the time of her death, and another 50 milligrams of undissolved methylcholine in her stomach. So the amount in her blood alone was twice what was necessary to induce some pretty severe drowsiness. It's about 1.5 times the therapeutic dose, which also, I mean, the whole point of this is to relax you and make you go to sleep, right?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
You talked about earlier how these experiences really prepared you for your current job. I can see that. And I have a question about that same sort of balance that you have to deal with. You talked about earlier, Baltimore can be a dangerous place. It has a reputation as a dangerous place.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
And a lot of the communities where it's the most dangerous are also the communities that don't trust the police because they've suffered from the violence of crime, but they've also suffered from mass incarceration and those sorts of policies.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
How do you balance the need to to drive down this crime and make Baltimore a safe place versus not falling into some of the old, easy methods of police and law enforcement that maybe do lead to that mass incarceration?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
So Adnan Syed.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Amen, by the way, to everything you just said. So I'm going to ask you the question you've probably gotten sick of hearing, which is as a private citizen, you had taken a position on Adnan that maybe, you know, his conviction should be vacated and maybe he did deserve a new trial, et cetera, et cetera.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
And then as state's attorney, obviously, after an investigation, you moved to withdraw the vacature of his conviction. So what changed?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
The only thing I want to say is you can come back whenever you want.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
We can do this weekly. But no, thank you for everything you do, and thank you for being an example for prosecutors around the country.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
So you mentioned the Freddie Gray case, and that's a good one to talk about. Obviously, for those of you who don't know, tragic case, black man in Baltimore who was arrested. He died under sort of mysterious circumstances after a ride in the back of a police van. And his name joined a long list of names that people can recite about police misconduct.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
And it was a case that generated a lot of controversy, a lot of protests around the country. decided to represent one of the police officers who was actually accused in that crime. How did you make that decision? And what did you, when you saw sort of the world against you, as you said, did that give you any pause about entering the fray in that case?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Stately. It's a wonderful word. It doesn't apply to me. And I'm just going to shut up because we have such an awesome guest. No one actually wants to hear from me.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
Yeah, my question is simple. Insurance agent or insurance broker? I've noticed insurance has gone way up over the last year or so, and I was curious your thoughts on insurance broker versus insurance agent.
The Ramsey Show
The Key to Financial Success: Slow and Steady
Well, I have a car insurance. I've gone way up. I have a daughter driving now. I also have... an umbrella, a million dollar policy, and a home insurance as well.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I think that we, like, didn't know what to think. But that's literally why I, like, I was going through so many things. Because, like, training for the marathon and then I met Max. Then I was like, wait, I actually don't hate L.A. anymore. And so.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Miserable. I think it's just, post-grad's hard. Post-grad's hard. And no one talks about it. Like, that, like, November, December of post-grad, like, those times were dark.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. We went to market like maybe two or three times. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. I was sick. And like, you know me. Yeah. If I am sick and like whatever, like I'm like.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, I really did not feel well at all. And then I had to force myself to go to Caroline's birthday the next day. So I took an Adderall to, like, try to get through it. Am I allowed to say that?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Basically I was feeling sick. And so I was like, I need to take an Adderall in order to get through this birthday. Cause Caroline is like my childhood best friend. She just moved to LA. I was, I'm going to her birthday. But then I like, I had like two Adderall spritzes, like, you know, like I'm like trying to get through it.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And then I just started feeling like, so, so sick after like literally an hour at bungalow. And so then I came home, but then, like, I proceeded to have a panic attack because I had taken an Adderall, but I needed to sleep. Uh-huh. And so it was just this whole to-do. Did you take something to sleep? Yeah. Well, just NyQuil. Just NyQuil. Nothing, like, serious. But I was able to sleep.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Cause we had just been laid over and we had like a six hour.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
That's smart. I also, one of my mom's friends, I think this happened to, but she took like an Ambien or one of the, one of those before they took off on like a night flight to like Paris and And then they ended up, like, taking off. And then, like, they had to, like, come back down for, like, some reason. And, like, she was, like, super, like, discombobulated and, like, couldn't get off the plane.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I think so. I forget the story. But that's why my mom says always wait in the air to take your lorazepam.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I take lorazepam on my flights to Europe to help sleep, but that's it.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I'm so excited. Oh, you know what? I'm mad that you didn't finish Slow Horses because it seriously is so good and I wish we could talk about it.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
But I want to watch it because since we finished Slow Horses, like Max, I need a show.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It was amazing. Do you ever let people sit in that chair now?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Oh. I always ask. I don't know if I've seen you on that.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Her chocolate chip cookies are, like, the famous ones. Yes. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I don't know why she said it's Megan. Like, instead of Mocho. But yeah, she like somehow elbowed her way.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
No, one for each. Do you guys want to try them? Yeah, of course. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. So it's just like a shortbread-y. The sandwich cookie part is just like shortbread-y. And fun fact, there isn't sugar in the dough.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I know. And so, but the, this is granulated sugar on top, but the, then the frosting is literally also just three ingredients. It's like heavy whipping cream, sugar, and like vanilla, I think. And like butter. I don't fucking know. But anyway, um, so they're just, they're crack.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I don't know if renaissance is the right word for that one.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Exactly. There was no sans. Basically, you guys, I post these cookies every single Christmas since I like started TikTok. So like the past two Christmases and then this year. Okay.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
2017. And I feel like that's a common misconception, which is totally understandable because obviously I'm Jake's best friend.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
People think I started after Jake because like, oh, like he was blowing up. So then like, I'm going to start breath bites. No, I've had breath bites since 2017. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. Like I miss bites. Yeah. Like it was like a thing.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yes. And I've been taking it seriously since then. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Thanks. Well, yeah, early past that post when he was just doing the reviews, like, we've talked about this before, but, like, a lot of his followers were from my town of Lake Forest.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Which is, like, cute. It's cute. Yeah. So, okay. Cheers.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And you keep them cold. Keeping them cold is key so that they aren't, like, sliding around with the frosting.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Jake and I are texting and I'm like, wait, Jake, like people are using the sound. People are using the sound like that. That's common sense. I fear. And then like slowly and slowly it was like bigger creators were using it. And then like I was seeing it like all over and like it was like literally taking the app by storm. It was awesome.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, because, like, honestly, like, the amount of sounds or the amount of videos that that sound has and, like, probably obviously other sounds have been made that, like, aren't yours. Like, it's truly crazy. And, like, again, like, and everyone that asks, I say, like, we knew that clip was, like, funny because it was, like, funny banter between us.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
When you first watched the episode back, you like kind of like laughed at it. Yeah. And you were like, it wasn't anything like crazy.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It is a very versatile little exchange. It is. I mean, not the marathon part, but, like, that's common sense.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was clever. It was clever. I wasn't trying to be clever. But then, like, when we reminisce.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Like truly. I need to breathe. Yeah. Cause you also don't like getting on a plane.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, no, for sure. I feel like similarly like ish. Like I don't like, that's why I don't see myself moving anytime soon. Cause I just like love my life here.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I love being able to drive. I love Air One. I love Air One. Like, I haven't gotten a fresh corn grill in a really long time either. Fuck that. Yeah, fuck that. Fuck that. Yeah, it's disgusting.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
But like... You just have to be here and understand.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I wouldn't say I love it. I just think it's a very quintessential LA experience. So, like, me and my family would always go, like, growing up. But, like, I'm not, like, rushing back to The Ivy ever.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And it really changed our lives when we discovered it. Like, we thought we were doing something by driving to West Hollywood and going there.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And, like, it was good, but, like, it also was kind of disgusting. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I don't know. It's a crazy concept. But yeah, it started grossing me out. It's just one of those things. Let's call it two, I understand.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I don't love it. I went with my sister the other week and it was good, but like- Do you remember Chicken Gate? Chicken Gate really scarred me for a long time.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
So as a lot of you guys know, I need to get my chicken like extra well done. Like I want it like burnt. I want it like chewy. I don't want juicy. Like I cannot eat chicken if there is any sort of not burnt piece. And I'm very particular about it. And so whenever I go to La Scala or anywhere, I say extra well done chicken, please. Like you can burn it. Like please. Please.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
They bring me my salad. And not only is the chicken not well done, it's freezing cold.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
So I was like, okay, obviously they- Are we brats? No.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And, like, also we're paying for an expensive salad. Like, at Sweetgreen, yeah, they're scooping chicken, but at Sweetgreen, like, I want, like, freshly grilled chicken. Anyway. Um, so I, I, if there's one thing about me, I, I don't like, I'm, I always am very polite, but if I order something and I don't like it, I almost always speak up in some way.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And I also think a lot of women are like taught to kind of just like accept things. And like a lot of women don't want to like Say, like, hey, like, this isn't what I ordered. Like, say it. You're paying. Anyway, so I said to the waiter, I said, hi, like, excuse me. Like, I asked for my chicken well done. And, like, this also seems like it, like, isn't, like, freshly, like, cooked.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Like, could you please replace it with burnt chicken? And they go, oh, they go, oh my God, of course. Whatever. They take my salad away. And Julia's actually. Same thing happened with Julia.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I don't remember. I think yours was fine. And then they proceed to bring our salads back.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It was literally the same chicken, if not colder chicken.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Well, they were still enjoying their salads, Ken, Jules, and Pei. Yes, that's who was there. You and I walked to Air One and we got a snack.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It was a great snack. It was a great snack. And yeah, so that ruined it for a long time.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
No, totally. We also, like, I feel like we're always having things to talk about. Because, like, you've been so busy, and, like, I'm busy sometimes.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
So, like, we don't, yeah, like, I've been so busy recently. I was at Tampax headquarters.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It was honestly great. It was a really cool experience, for sure. Yeah. Did I expect to ever go to Cincinnati to Procter & Gamble headquarters?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, but like they call it like also like Tampax HQ because like Tampax is part of Procter & Gamble, but it was Procter & Gamble.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It was like, well, the vibe of like the, like the Tampax of it all or just like the vibe of Procter & Gamble?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
um I mean it was it was like cool like I was with a few other creators and like the Tampax team was all really nice obviously like it was all it was all women there was one man but like it was really cool to hear about like the history of I was about to say is that what they told you about yeah so it was really cool basically I've been a Tampax girl always so it's just like a cool brand to work with and um and yeah it was cool to go to Cincinnati so that's that what'd you have for dinner there
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
We actually went to this Mexican restaurant that was really good. Actually, I will say. I will say. And I feel like I can say this because I told the people there, too. Like, I went, like, not expecting to, like, love the food. Like, you know what I mean? Because, like, I don't know where, like, we're going. Like, you know what I mean?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And I'm very particular about my food. All the food was great. We went to this place called Nada for dinner. Great Mexican. We had Grater's ice cream. Delicious.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It is literally in the arts district. We live so far from there.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. And that was also, that was just a fun night in general.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Oh, yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited. Do you want to get into it?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Okay, yeah. I mean, I'm freaking out. You know how much we love that show. And you know what I will say is Jake finished it before I did because I was getting like really bored in some of the episodes, I will say. And he was like, no, just like get through. Stick with it. for the finale. He was hyping up this finale so much. I was like, this better fucking.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I recently listened to this podcast episode that was, like, recapping it. It's this, like, TV... You actually would like this podcast. It's a TV podcast, and they, like, kind of just, like... It's commentary about different episodes of different shows. What's it called? It's called The Prestige. Max showed it to me. Oh, I've heard of this. I've heard of this.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Anyway, they're definitely going to do every single episode of this upcoming Severance season, so I'm very excited for that. They did, like, Slow Horses season four, whatever.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Anyway, and so I... listen to their recap of the finale. And I like forgot some tidbits as well. And I just was like, I'm so excited.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
The wife. The wife. I forgot about that. Do you remember the paint thing? The guy's painting?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
So they were talking about this in the finale. We think that he basically is going home from work and he's trying to like overcome the severance and paint what he's like thinking, what he, even though he doesn't remember, like he's trying so hard to remember.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
We know that he's an artist. That's all we know. I think that's all we know.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It's insane. And so basically, but he's the most like obedient in the workplace, in the workplace. But then he gets the paint coming in, in his mind. Remember? Yeah. And I think it's because when he goes home, he's trying to remember he's trying so hard to overcome like the sever or whatever. And so it's creeping into both.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I don't. But Hacks is so fucking good. I know, I know, I know.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Like, that's what took me so long to watch Nobody Wants This, because it's just like, that's just, I like a scary show. Me too. But I loved Nobody Wants This.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Keep going. It's like, I can't believe that you... Chorus. Chorus. Chorus.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
We've sang in episodes before. I'm tired of talking, talking. Yeah. You remember.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
No, no. We've sang a song. We sang You're Losing Me in my last solo episode. Yes. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Like – No, but, like, I need it too. Well, because we were positive that by the time she ended the Eros tour, she would be done with the re-recordings and it would be, like, closing all the chapters. Remember? Wasn't that our theory?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Do you want to hear the craziest fucking theory I saw the other day? And of course I watched it.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Do you know the 112 day theory? No. No. Okay, well, I'm not gonna get into it, but there's an 112-day theory. But it's been disproven. It was, like, 112 days between, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was valid for, like, Speak Now and 1989, and then... Anyway, though, all the surprise songs she sang on tour, and it's 448. Jesus Christ. Which is 112 four times.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And so then they were, like, doing all this math. Are we just making this thing... Like, this shit up at this point? Yes. We are. I think they're making it up. I think they're making it up.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I actually remember I played it in my car at the very end of junior year.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yes. Yes. And then you went home and you became hyper fixated. And I had only recently discovered. I hadn't been listening to it for very long.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yes. You would post about it on the subway. Yes. Why do I have such a vivid memory of that?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
You're stronger than me. Why didn't you break up with him already?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
So like every single time you have sex, he pukes before?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I haven't even seen this new set in person, which is kind of crazy.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I know. But I have been back here. I walked into the green room too. And I was like, wait, this is like a real place now.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I love that she was in the shower. Same. Like, you're declining the calls. Like, valid.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
She won't listen. Like, being in a relationship, especially a toxic one, which, like, I don't know if this is toxic, but it sounds toxic, obviously. Like, it clouds your judgment so much.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, and you cannot make her... Like, she's clearly being irrational if she's blaming this on you somehow, which is just batshit crazy. And so, unfortunately, like, I do hope that one day she comes around and realizes that this was insane of her and apologizes. But, like, for now, you just got to be, like...
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Of course. It used to be one of my favorite movies. It's the best movie ever. It's an amazing movie. Yeah. That's sick.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
You should do Spain. Yes. You have pussies in Spain. Do what? There's a girl named Alicia. Alicia maybe is how you pronounce it because she's Spanish. And she said, tell Jake to come to Madrid and come with him.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And so if you're watching this girl. Okay. I hear you. I'm advocating.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
No. Yeah, I don't think they have. That would just be very strange. And that would also just signal that clearly they shouldn't be with this person because there's a reason why they're hiding him.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
We have so many suitcases. Now there's all in the garage, there's a wall of suitcases.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. So I'm confused. Like what is this girl concerned about? The fact that her sister is cheating on her boyfriend or the fact that they don't know the sister's boyfriend?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, I agree. It can't hurt to like, I don't know what transferring or how that is in Europe.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I would freak out. I would freak the fuck out. Like, why is she taking pictures? That's so fucking weird.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. It's too much. I don't know where half the shit that was in here went, to be honest. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
And it's like... No, of course they can be friends. But it's like, no one's, like, posting someone, like, all over their Finsta who, like, has a girlfriend. Like, you know what I mean?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Even if like they're like, oh, well, like we should still be able to do X, Y, and Z. Like things change. Like things change. And you don't need to be crazy. Like you shouldn't be crazy and be like, oh, you guys can't hang out. Like whatever. But it's like at the same time, like things change when a guy gets a girlfriend.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I don't think you should get married by 22 either. It doesn't matter.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
If you want to put yourself out there more, like, I think my best advice is just remember that, like, nothing is that serious. And, like, it's not going to hurt you by, like, going out of your comfort zone a little bit and, like, going on a date or, like, whatever. Like, life isn't that serious. Just, like, go for it.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, it's mine. That's yours? Where did that go? That's in the garage now.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. I'm trying to think of what I learned. What did we talk about?
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. Let's stop fucking out. I don't know. I really don't know what else.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I know. The packages of it all has been a game changer.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
No. The PR pile like went to the ceiling. Like it was just like, it was bad. But look, we're organized now.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
But my personal room, I was just saying yesterday, it's always dirty now.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Because my room is too small for all the shit I have. It is. It's overflowing with things.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I mean, you literally have the same desk since like sophomore year of college.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. I mean, have you literally, have you seen my room? Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
No, I don't know if that's true, but like, it's just, I have a hard time throwing things out, but I'm trying to get better at it. You know? Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yes. Like a month ago. It was great. You want to talk about it? I do. Honestly, it was a great day.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It was overall an amazing weekend. Like, first of all, the weather was amazing, which like we all know was my downfall in Boston.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It was too much. Um, and it was definitely like really like a hard course, but it was so like the energy was insane. Um, There were so many people cheering. It was like so cute.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
But you were tapped in. Like you were texting Max. You were texting Elle. Did he tell you? Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
He was like, Jake's been texting me. Like he's wanting to like know. I was like, aw.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. And so like, that was really cool. Like all the support.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I was the second most tracked runner, which is crazy. Crazy. Like I'm still not over that. I don't think. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I was above like other like celebrity celebrities. Whatever. But yeah, that was super cool. So it was overall an amazing, amazing. I definitely want to do it again someday. Yeah.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
No, but the tour was more important. I will say. I don't care. I will say. Something will come up for Chicago. No, no, no, no.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Exactly. So I was like, it's fine. Like it's fine.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
You were so good during the first one. Like, it was just, like, so fun.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah. It was a good weekend. It was a fun day overall.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
That was such like a fun like different time in life. Like.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It was. No. It was like a little after midnights. But like you had just gotten famous. Like I just started like seeing Max more seriously. Like it was like things were just like changing.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Kind of. And then we went to Taylor Swift the next weekend. Oh, yeah. That's my favorite memory.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Or not hopefully. No, she'll tour again. She'll tour again. I don't think we have to be worried about her not touring again. I just was, like, I was saying to Max, I was, like, I'm so upset that, like, I'm never going to see this show again. And he was, like... you're being like a bit dramatic. Like she made so much money.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Like her next tour is going to be like something, a similar vibe in some sense. Like she, I don't think she can go back to just touring one album. And then you said the smart thing about like the three to four.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
She has to. She's done Love Story at every single tour.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
What do you think of TTPD? Oh, I can do it with a broken heart.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It's kind of insane that you never got to see it.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I only saw it once and it was in Zurich and the Zurich shows were, you know how I get offended so easily. Yeah, yeah. Well, not offended so easily, but like I take things personally when I shouldn't.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
But things that I, I don't get offended by things that I should get offended about. And then I take things personally that I shouldn't. So I was, do you ever get those TikToks? It's like unpopular Taylor Swift.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
It came up on my For You page like yesterday or the day before. And I commented like, that's just the Swiss culture. Concert etiquette is different everywhere. I was there and it was so fun. I got so offended.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Me too. But we couldn't have because that was the marathon. But I do wish.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
There was a reason, but we also, like, didn't fully, like, consider it, I don't think. Because I wasn't signed up for the marathon when we got our tickets.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Imagine we went to- Because I obviously would have been like, oh, I'm not doing that. Let me go to Eros. And then I probably would have never become a thon queen, to be honest.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, no, totally. You'd be running still. Yeah, I'd still be. I probably would have done one eventually.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Yeah, I don't know if I have any videos of me crossing any finish lines. Oh wait, no, I have one in New York. I have one in New York.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Not LA though. And not Boston. I was not looking good.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I was so mad. It was, it was a hard day. I sobbed the entire flight home. Max was like, Brad, are you okay? Like I was sobbing.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
But not, but not to the extent that I should have. Like I was way more prepared for New York. And also what I said is that like, since Boston went, my first marathon just went like picture perfect. And so like since, since Boston didn't go well, like that proved to me, like even if it's so, so hard and it's sucking, like I can finish. Like I was hurting with 10 miles left in the race.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Like that's insane to think about. And I still finished it.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
I knew what to expect. Yeah, it started at 7 a.m. Like I knew what to expect about the course.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
Uh, no, I'll probably try to do London or something the following spring. And then I'll only have two of the majors left, Berlin and Tokyo.
Therapuss with Jake Shane
Session 55: Brett’s Back
You'd be up to grad school. You guys, I went through like a post-grad crisis, like so many people do. And I was like, gotta go to grad school.
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
She said, I don't think Craig gets off on making us feel like shit, especially his mother. She's very, very rich.
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
And Madison's like, um, I'm starting to realize this might be a little bit blown out of proportion. And maybe Craig, you know, said it a little too dramatic or something. So now JT, I'm not going to embarrass you in front of all these people.
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
He's like, I ain't going over there. He better come over here. I'm not walking over there.
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
And she's like, well, that hurt my feelings.
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
She's like, nothing really. I mean, he got some big fat cigarettes to smoke, I guess.
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
And they're like, I almost feel bad for him.
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
At first, at least, she's like, yeah, well, you are sort of a miss. How am I a good idea for anybody?
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
So Madison's like, you deserve to be loved as much as you're giving her. So, you know, fakely. And he's like, oh, thank you so much. Wow. She goes, everybody deserves to be with someone that loves them. Everybody deserves to be with someone that loves them. Even shit.
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
Good. Well, what you doing?
Watch What Crappens
#2745 Southern Charm S10E12 Garsh Expectations on Shudder Island
It's like, hey, ding dong. You got Molly right there who actually likes you. Okay. I mean, why don't you shoot your shot with someone that seems you?
Will & Rusty's Playdate
he caught me with my fly down
Everything Soon as I got your name I couldn't take
Will & Rusty's Playdate
official ins and outs of 2025
That's a tortoise. That's a turtle. That's a tortoise. That's a fucking turtle. I just made a diorama on reptiles. I know everything about turtles.
Will & Rusty's Playdate
official ins and outs of 2025
That's a tortoise. That's a turtle. That's a tortoise. That's a fucking turtle. I've just made a diorama on reptiles. I know everything about turtles. It's still great. It's still great, right?