On this episode of the MeidasTouch Podcast, Ben sits down with political messaging powerhouse Anat Shenker-Osorio for a must-hear conversation about how we defeat the MAGA regime—not by playing defense, but by reframing the entire debate. From exposing the GOP’s “pain is good” Ponzi scheme propaganda to laying out the messaging blueprint for real, people-powered progress, this episode is packed with insight, strategy, and motivation for the fight ahead. Tune in and get fired up. To watch our Meidas Meetup series live, join us now on Substack at MeidasPlus.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who is Anat Shenker-Osorio and why is she important?
This is an interview series, and we've been bringing on some of the most brilliant thinkers in the space. So today we are especially excited to welcome Anat Shankarasario to the show. She is a political messaging guru extraordinaire and strategist. Anat, welcome to the show.
Thank you. I'm thrilled to be part of the Midas cinematic universe, which is what it feels like.
You were definitely part of the universe, and it's been an honor to know you over many, many years. And as our description for this Substack Live is adequately or accurately said, you are a messaging expert in these areas. We need that more often.
than ever right now you're with a group that you founded called the research collaborative and you go around the country you speak with people you talk to focus groups you're looking at the trends you're seeing how people are responding to different messaging and um You know, it's interesting because we've been reporting a lot now.
It seems that as these MAGA Republicans are going to not be doing these town halls, they're canceling these town halls and running away from it. You are starting to see, and we reported on it last night and this morning, Democrats
whether they're taking our advice or they're also just doing it on their, you know, it's not exactly like we're the only people who have said it out there, but they're saying, hey, maybe we should be going into some of these districts, these reddish or purplish districts.
Look, Senator Bernie Sanders is getting a hero's welcome there, and he's listening and talking to the people and asking, what does it mean to live paycheck to paycheck? And people are saying it out loud, and those ideas are being exchanged online.
So we see AOC doing that and we see a whole tour now, though, of other Democrats now saying we're going to go into these reddish and purplish areas and we're going to speak to these voters. So the question is, is what should they be speaking about? And just remove the political party aspect of it. What what what should people be speaking about to meet the moment?
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Chapter 2: Why are Democrats going into reddish and purplish districts now?
Yeah, thanks for the question and for the introduction. What I would say is that. We cannot seem to be or be in defense of the status quo. We cannot seem to be offering people a vision that is, you know, January 19th, 2025, meaning right before inauguration.
Chapter 3: What messaging should Democrats use to connect with voters?
People understood before that day, and they certainly understand right now that the way the world works and the way that things are done, whether that be our electoral system and certainly our financial system, is beyond broken.
And so it begins, if you are in these town hall settings, with demonstrating not just empathy, but I would say showing, not telling that you actually know that there are sides. Right. This neoliberal fiction that, quote unquote, a rising tide lifts all boats, which I think too many Democrats fell prey to and perhaps still are.
That was a sellout of the Democratic vision and of the time under FDR, when if you were a working person, if you were working class, you didn't just vote Democratic. Being a Democrat was a core part of your identity. And we were not lamenting, you know, why don't we have purchase with the working class?
FDR spoke quite eloquently, as I'm sure you know, about, you know, I welcome their hatred, speaking of the big bosses at the time. So really, the name of the game is saying, I see you, I hear you, you have more month than check. That's not right. I see you, I hear you, you are not getting a fair return on your work.
I see you, I hear you, you just want to go to the doctor and not get sick worrying about the bill. Speak in the concrete language of lived experience, not in the language of abstraction like universal single-payer health care, which is a policy and an important one, don't mistake me. But that kind of language is what I call selling the recipe and not the brownie.
You have to speak in brownie speak, meaning the outcome of the policy. And tell folks that, yeah, there are sides. The sides are... Almost every single one of us who just want to get by, put food on the table and be home in time to eat it. Ensure our kids have the freedom to learn the truth of our past. Ensure our neighbors can make it home safe at the end of the day.
Ensure that we can live our lives, be with the people we love and express ourselves as we see fit. And then there are these macro Republicans. who are bankrolled by billionaires, who want to take the wealth our work creates and turn us against each other, hoping that if they can get us to point our finger in the wrong direction, we won't notice while they pick our pockets.
That's pretty much the essence of the message.
I hope everybody sees right now why and not Shank Rosario is in the Midas universe of superheroes right now, because it's where I she helps for my intellectual foundation and gut checks me on these types of things as well, which ultimately form the foundation for the type of reporting you see here on the Midas Touch Network.
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Chapter 4: How do MAGA Republicans justify economic pain?
send our kids to school and have them have maybe somewhat of a nice time, be able to get health care, be able to drive on roads and all the rest. The reason why we have come to this place and they are able to, you know, make this sort of you need to suffer now is because that's not the entirety of their argument. The entirety of their argument is that they are the strong men.
You know, this is the authoritarian siren song we know from the world and time over. And they are coming to wrestle the evil behemoth of government, the bloat, the waste, the fraud, the abuse. That's not my language. That's theirs. Hopefully that's clear. And the reason why you need to feel pain right now is because government has grown too large and it has enabled and empowered bad people, right?
We know this from the older language of welfare queen. We know this from the language of giving to the undeserving. So they've already constructed for themselves a platform wherein government is bad because it takes from, quote unquote, hardworking people who are coded as white and gives it to profligate undeserving people who are coded as black and immigrant and white.
Not like you, not real Americans or not real Californians or not real Minnesotans or whatever you feel in the state. And so their argument for pain right now, because of course, as you rightly said, people are feeling pain. is, right, this is a short-term thing in order to deal with this kind of giant problem.
And it's only because they've set up for themselves this entire foundation of thought wherein they shame and blame some other, and that other, you know, has different manifestations at different times. Sometimes it's Black folks, sometimes it's Latinos, sometimes it's trans people, sometimes it's all of the above.
But that's why they can make this argument, and it is compelling not to most people, but to their core base. So they then utilize that core base, the MAGA red hat wearing base, in order to spread that gospel.
The antidote to it is to recognize that it is absolutely essential, of course, to talk about people's pain and to do it not in abstract terms, as I said before, but, you know, you want to be able to go to the supermarket and fill up your basket. Like, what the fuck is this shit? Just to, you know, speak in very, very on the hill approved language.
But it's also important to remember that politics isn't solitary. And if we are not actively countering the rest of their narrative, then our economic only promises actually don't break through because they're still hearing, yes, but immigrants are going to take my job. Yes, but, you know, undeserving people are on Medicaid and they should have work requirements and why aren't they working? Right.
So what the message requires is both and. It requires saying, hey, look, most of us believe that people who work for a living ought to earn a living and that the money that we put together collectively should fund our futures and care for our needs. But today, these MAGA Republicans and the broligarchs that they decided could engage in a hostile takeover of our government.
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Chapter 5: What is the 'Ponzi scheme regime' in Republican messaging?
Yeah. So what I would say is that if you're going to operate within their frame and respond to the proposition, the complete bullshit proposition they're putting forward, as you rightly identified, I think that's a very clever way to do it. I think that's the wrong choice.
I think living inside of their frame is a mistake because then you are ultimately in a you said, they said kind of thing where they say this is the greatest thing since, you know,
free eggs and you say no it's a Ponzi scheme it's a little bit like having the endless debate that we've seen in many states New York in particular crime is up crime is down crime is up crime is not up crime is up crime is not up how many times can I talk about crime did you notice how much I talked about crime did I make you think about crime and so if you're saying this is a Ponzi scheme unless you're very very methodical and elegant about it you're still sort of raising to the fore their
proposal, if I can even call it a proposal. Instead, what you do is you exit the frame altogether and you say, this is the MAGA murder budget. This is a budget that is hell bent on destroying the lives and controlling the futures of every single person that doesn't live, look, love, pray, or think like them. This is the MAGA murder budget. It's what they've put forward. It's what they believe in.
They will take our money in order to destroy our lives. You don't even credit, like you don't go into, this is actually why you don't need to, you know, this is actually why their thing isn't true. Because then you're playing their game. Does that make sense?
And not only does it make sense, that's what we live by. It's why I don't ever even debate or step into the frame of the MAGA podcast people and why I will say on the Midas Touch Network, we're gonna stand up for marginalized communities. I believe that being a bully is the weakest thing you can be. That doesn't make you alpha or masculine. But when they try to bait me
to get into all of those debates also about a transgender athlete in San Jose State. To me, that's their frame to try to take you away from all of the things that they're doing. And I go, first off, I'm never going to do anything to bully people. I'm going to stand up for people. And I'm never going to punch down to marginalized communities. But why is that what you're thinking about?
You are gutting Medicaid, Social Security. You're taking away people's rights. You're destroying people's pensions. And this is what you want to even talk. So I don't even go there with them because you have, to your point, exiting their frame. And too long, I think both corporate media and Democrats have been living in an entirely bogus, bullshit, bizarro framework that
you know, dystopian 1984-ish fantasy world that looks like Elon Musk's ex or Twitter and not speaking to Americans about the actual issues, bring them back. Exit frame, reframe to where people really are. So what you're saying makes a ton of sense. What should people do about it? This is the comment that you're seeing a lot. People go, what do regular people do about it? And
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Chapter 6: How can Democrats counteract MAGA messaging effectively?
So to make this visceral to all of us, I think we can all, well, some of us are old enough to remember a time where it was socially acceptable, at least in many circles, to believe that, you know, two men shouldn't marry or two women shouldn't marry. And it was, you know, an asthma and it was bad. And it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. And that was a sort of majority view, right?
Obviously, we had an extraordinary movement toward marriage equality that eventually became, hey, look, folks, we're getting married. Either get on the bus and accept this, or you're going to be having to explain to your grandchildren why you had such a freaking hard time, right? So when... you actually wear your beliefs, you speak your beliefs, you show your beliefs.
Again, I'm sorry to use the example, but the odious red MAGA hat is a perfect example of social proof. Most people are not in the mighty Midas as many, I know many, many, many hundreds of thousands of people are, but that's, you know, there's, there's a few people left over who haven't woken up. Um, And so they're grappling right now and we can see it in focus groups.
Focus groups are an extended meditation on people wondering if they're being gaslit or not. They are saying over and again, am I nuts? This seems like a really big deal. Is it a big deal? I can't really tell. Is this just sort of what happens when there is a new administration or is this some kind of break?
And the reason that they're grappling is because it's sort of the first mover problem where everyone's like, well, I feel like I'm kind of freaking out, but it seems like kind of no one's freaking out. So I don't know, am I overreacting?
So the first thing you can do is actually, you know, you own a barn, you live in a rural bit, paint the side of it saying fabulously fighting fascism, or say freedom over fascism, or say I'm in the know, K-N-O-W, but also N-O. Free America. That is an extraordinarily effective free America from wages we can't live on. Free America from health care that we can't afford.
Free America from Elon Musk, who thinks he can purchase himself a country for very little money down. Free America from the hate, the division and the fear they are peddling. So first and foremost, and maybe it seems tiny, but you actually need to show, not tell that this is the majority position. The majority of us do not agree with this. We are not into this. We will not go along.
That can be a symbol. I happen to be wearing right now a little Lady Liberty pin. It can be a hat. It can be a shirt. It can be all of the above. It can be signs. So that's the first thing. The second thing is to go local. I know that everything feels massive and overwhelming. It does to me. I'm sure it does to the two of you.
But in order to actually implement this autocratic fascistic agenda, they have to do it at the local level. So where you live, here's a promise I can make to you. You get you and three, four or five of your friends to go to the city council meeting or to go to the school board. Do you know how many people go to a school board meeting? Four of you go. You're the majority.
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